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 ^1 ^xT;:;
 
 FIRST 
 
 REPORT 
 
 FROM THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 OK 
 
 INDIAN TERRITORIES; 
 
 TOGETHER WITH THE 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 
 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 
 2 May 1853. 
 
 426.
 
 " J 
 
 Lunoe, 15° die Novembris, 1852. 
 
 Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into tlie Operation of the 
 Act 3 8c 4 Will. 4, c. 85, for efl'ecling an Arrangement with the East India Company, and 
 for the belter Government of Her Majesty's Indian Territories lill the 30th day of April 
 1854. 
 
 Martis, 16° die Novembris, 1852. 
 
 Cr)mmittee nominated of — 
 
 Mr, Henies. 
 
 Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. 
 
 Lord Jolin Kussell. 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 
 Mr. Baillie. 
 
 Mr. Gladstone. 
 
 Mr. Newdegate. 
 
 Mr. Laboiichere. 
 
 Sir James Graham. 
 
 Mr. Alderman Thompson. 
 
 Sir William Molesworth. 
 
 Sir Robert Harry Inglis. 
 
 Viscount Jocelyn. 
 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. 
 
 Ordered, That Five be the Quorum ot the said Committee. 
 
 Mr. Milner Gibson. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Sir James Hogg. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Mr. Bankes. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Mr. Robert Hildyard. 
 Mr, James Wilson. 
 Mr. Spooner. 
 Mr. Keogh. 
 Mr. Macaulay. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Mr. Robert Clive. 
 Mr. Edward EUice. 
 Viscount Palmerston. 
 
 Vene7'is, 18^ die Februarii, 1853. 
 
 Ordered, That Mr. Wilson be discharged from further attendance on the Committee, 
 and that Lord John Russell, Sir Charles Wood, Sir George Grey, Sir Thomas Maddock, 
 Mr. Chichester Fortescue, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. John Elliot, and Mr. Lowe be added thereto. 
 
 Martis, 22° die Febniarii, 1853. 
 
 Ordered, That Mr. Chichester Fortescue be discharged from further attendance on the 
 Committee, and that Mr. John Fitzgerald be added thereto. 
 
 Jovis, 28° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee have power to Report the Minutes of Evidence taken 
 before them, from time lo time, to The House. 
 
 Luna, 2" die Maii, 1853. 
 
 Ordered, That the Report of the Select Committee on Indian Territories of last Session, 
 and copy of the Report of the Seleci Committee of the House of Lords on the same sub- 
 ject (communicated 1st December) be referred to the Committee. 
 
 REPORT - - - - 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - 
 APPENDIX - - - - 
 
 - p. Ill 
 
 - p. 1 
 
 - P-379
 
 [ iii ] 
 
 FIRST REPORT. 
 
 THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Operation of the 
 Act 3 & 4 Will. 4, c. 8b, for effecting an Arrangement with the East India 
 Company, and for the better Government of Her Majesty's Indian Terri- 
 tories till the 30th day of April 1854, and to whom several Petitions, and 
 the Report of the Committee on Indian Territories of last Session, and also 
 the Report of the Committee of the House of Lords, were referred, and who 
 were empowered to Report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, 
 from time to time, to The House : 
 
 H 
 
 AVE made progress in the Matters to them referred, and have agreed to 
 Report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them. 
 
 2 Maij 1853. 
 
 g 
 
 
 426.
 
 [ iv ] 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 Martii, 14° die Deccmbris, 1852. 
 Philip ]\Ielvill, Esq. - - - p. 1 
 
 Jovis, 24° die Fehruarii, 1853. 
 
 Lieutenaat-general Sir VVilloughby 
 
 Cotton, G.c.B. - - - - p. 15 
 
 Lieutenant-geiiereil Sir Thomas 
 
 M'Mahoii, Bart-, k.c.b. - - p. 26 
 
 Luncv, 28° die Fehruarii, 1853. 
 
 Lieutenant-general Sir George Pol- 
 lock, G.c.B. - - - - p. 30 
 Colonel Patrick Mongomerie, c.b. p. 43 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Frederick Ab- 
 
 boti, C.B. - - - - - p. 4t) 
 
 Veneris, 4° die Martii, 1853. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel William Burl- 
 ton, C.B. - - - - - p- 52 
 
 Colonel Francis Spencer Hawkins, 
 
 C.B. p. 60 
 
 LunoE, 7° die Martii, 1 853. 
 
 James Cosmo Melvill, Esq. - - p. 67 
 
 Captain Frederick Thomas Powell p. 77 
 Captain William liutcheson Hall, 
 
 R.N., F.K.S. - - - - p. 82 
 
 Ardaseer Cursetjee, Esq., f.r.s. - p. 86 
 
 Jovis, 10° die Martii, 1853. 
 
 Veneris, 18° die Martii, 1853. 
 
 Frederick James Halliduy, Esq. - p. 152 
 Right Hon. Sir Edward Ryan - p. 166 
 
 Martis, 5° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 Sir George Russell Clerk, k.c.b. - p. 176 
 
 Jovis, 7° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 Sir Erskine Perry - - - p- 201 
 
 Lunce, 11° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 Right Hon. Sir Edward Ryan - p. 229 
 Sir Erskine Perry - - - p. 231 
 Sir Edward Gam'bier - - - p. 243 
 
 Jovis, 14° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 Charles Hay Cameron, Esq. - p. 249 
 Malcolm Lewin, Esq. - - P- 265 
 
 Lunos, 18° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 David Hill, Esq. - 
 
 - P- 
 
 91 
 
 Frederic Mlllett, Esq. - 
 
 - P- 
 
 9« 
 
 Frederick James llalliday, Esq. 
 
 - P- 
 
 lot! 
 
 Luna, 14° die Mar Hi, 1853. 
 
 General the Right Honourable Hugli 
 
 Viscount Gau<ili, g.c.b. - - P- 
 
 Colonel Patrick Grant, c.b. - - P- 
 
 Frederick James llalliday, Esq. - p. 
 
 Jovis, 17° die Martii, 1853. 
 Frederick James Halliday, Esq. - p. 
 
 Malcolm Lewin, Esq. 
 John Farley Leith, Esq. 
 
 P- 273 
 p. 291 
 
 113 
 121 
 
 130 
 
 >39 
 
 Jovis, 21° die. Aprilis, 1853. 
 John Farley Leith, Esq. - - ?• 294 
 
 Lunce, 25° die Aprilis, 1853, 
 
 John Farley Leith, Esq. - - p. 321 
 Neil Benjamin Edmonstone Bail- 
 lie, Esq. - - - - - p. 321 
 John Clarke Marshman, Esq. - p. 341 
 
 Jovis, 28° die Aimlis, 1853. 
 
 John Clarke Marshman, Esq. - p. 345 
 Charles Marriott Caldecott, Esq. p. 356 
 Henry William Deane, Esq. - p. 362 
 
 Luna;, 2° die Maii, 1853. 
 
 Henry William Deane, Esq. - p. 3^4 
 Javanjee Pestonjee, Esq. - - P- 37'
 
 [ 1 1 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 Martis, lA" die Dccemhris, 1852. 
 
 Sir R. H. Inglis. 
 Ml-. Heiiiis. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Mr. Bankes. 
 Mr. R. Hildy.ud. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Hiirdinge. 
 Mr. Spooner. 
 Mr. E. Ellice. 
 Mr. Baillie. 
 Mr. Keoj^li. 
 Mr. R. li. Clivc. 
 Sir J;inies Hogg. 
 
 Sir ROBERT HARRY INGLIS, Bart., in the Chair. 
 
 Pliilip Metvill, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 1. ChairmanJ'\ ^^'HA'^ office do you hold m tjje East India House? — That of P. Me!vill,Y.n\ 
 Secretary in the Militaiy Department. 
 
 2. How long have you held that office? — Fifteen years. U l^ec. iS^-.-. 
 
 3. Were you in tiiat department before you became secretary ? — From the 
 earliest period of my appointment, 40 years ago, 1 have been in that department. 
 
 4. What is tlie aggregate strength of the army of India? — The aggregate 
 strength of the army in India, in the year 1851, was 289,529. 
 
 5. What is the aggregate cost of the army annually? — According to the 
 last return, it is sometliing short of 10,000,000/. 
 
 6. Over how many square miles is that army distributed ? — The territorial 
 extent of India, including the Tenasseiim Provinces and Aracan, is about 
 1,300,000 square miles. 
 
 7. What is the population which that army is designed to j)rotcct? — The 
 population is computed at 150,000,000. 
 
 S. Of that population how many are Mussulmen and how many are Hindoos? 
 — 1 am not prepared with a statement of the proportions. , 
 
 9. Can you furnish the Committee with an approximate statement? — lam 
 not prepared to make any statement on that subject. 
 
 10. Of the aggregate strengtii of the army in India, what are the component 
 parts, to begin with the Queen's forces? — The Queen's forces comprise 24 regi- 
 ments of infantry and five of dragoons, the aggregate of wliich is 29,480. 
 
 11. What is the strength of the Company's Etiropean infantry ?• — It consists 
 of six regiments, tlie aggiegate strength of which is 6,2GG. 
 
 12. Wliat is the strength of the Company's regular native infantry / — Of the 
 regular native infantry the aggregate is 157,711. 
 
 13. Of the Company's irregular infantry what is the aggregate? — o!),(ii;{. 
 
 14. What is the strengtii of the regular native cavalry of the East India Com- 
 pany ? — It amounts to 10,186. 
 
 15. Wiiat does the irregular native cavalry amount to ? — To 21,134. 
 
 i6. What is the number of regiments of the regular native infantrv and of the 
 irregular native infantry ? — The number of regiments in the regular native 
 infantry is 155, and in the irregular native infantry 53. 
 
 17. In the regular native cavalry how many regiments are there c*— There 
 are 21 regiments. 
 
 0.10. A iS. What
 
 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 P. MehUl, Esq. 18. What is tlie mnnber of icgiments in the irregular native cavalry? — Tliere 
 
 — - are 34 corps. 
 
 14 Dec. 1852. iq. What is the force of tlie artillery? — It amounts in the aggregate to 
 
 16,440, divided amongst the European horse and the European loot, and native 
 
 foot or Golundaiize. 
 
 20. W'liat is the number of sappers and miners ? — The aggregate of the sap- 
 pers and miners is 2,569. 
 
 21. What is the number of F.uropean officers? — The number on the estab- 
 lished strength is 5,142. 
 
 22. Is there any other class into which the strength of the armj' of India is 
 divided? — There are, in addition to those which 1 have enumerated, veterans or 
 native invalids amounting to 4,124. There are, besides, the medical establish- 
 nient, aggregating 1,763, and the European warrant officers, viz. 243. 
 
 23. Does the aggregate of these 11 classes represent the figures which vou 
 gave in the first instance, as composing the army in India, namely, 289,529 ? — 
 Yes, it does, except tliat the European officers serving in India are included in 
 the aggregate of the several branches of the service to which they belong. 
 
 24. Can you state to the Committee, of this aggregate force how many are 
 Mussulmen, and how many are Hindoos, and how many are Indo-Europeans ? — 
 The proportion of tlie JMahomedans to the Hindoos is about 1 to 4. 
 
 25. Does that upply to the whole force, or to particular sections of it ? — It 
 applies only to the aggregate force ; portions of the force have a far larger 
 proportion of Mahomedaus to Hindoos. 
 
 26. 'Which are those? — The native cavalry of Madras in particular, and the 
 corps of irregular horse in LJungal, also the native cavalry of Bengal. 
 
 27. You have already stated to the Committee into how man}' regiments this 
 aggregate force is divided, as far as relates to the native regiments ; will you 
 favour the Committee with the same information as regards the European regi- 
 ments in the service of tlie East India Company? — In the service of the East 
 India Company there are two regiments at each Presidency. 
 
 28. Have they the same, or a larger complement of officers? — In comparison 
 with the native troops they have double the proportion of European officers. 
 
 ■2y. You have not stated the number of regiments or corps of artillery ; how 
 many corps or battalions of artillery are there ? — There are five brigades of horse 
 artillery, 12 battalions of European foot artillery, and six battalions of native 
 foot artillery. 
 
 30. What was the aggregate force in 1834, being the period from which the 
 inquiries of the present Committee are understood to be instituted? — In the vear 
 1835 the strength of the arnij' in India was 183,760 ; as compared with that 
 year the increase in 1851 is 105,760. But I should state, that in the year 
 1834-5 the army had been reduced to a lower ebb than at any time during the 
 preceding 26 years; namely, since 1808. This was consequent upon the 
 enormous reduction which after the close of the Burmese war was made on 
 financial grounds, amounting to 108,000 men as compared with the number in 
 the year 1826. The greatest strength at any time during (he Burmese war 
 vas 291,000 men. The strength is now somewhat less than that; viz., 289,529. 
 
 31. Was 291.000 the largest number of which the army in India was ever com- 
 posed ? — It was the largest, except in the year 1847, when the number was 
 291,796. 
 
 32. And the number was the smallest in the year in which the reduction to 
 the extent of 108,000, at the close of the Burmese war, was made? — Tlie j'ear 
 1835, in which tiie number was less by 108,000 than the year 1826, was that in 
 whicii flic strength of tiie army was on its lowest scale during the time referred to. 
 
 33. Will you be pleased to state how the aggregate was formed in 1834, 
 taking tiie same classes as you have already taken with reference to the army in 
 Itidia in 1852? — To begin with the Queen's forces, there were at that time 20 
 re'riinents of infantry and four of dragc/ons, aggregating 17,079. Of Euro|)ean 
 iiilantry in the Comjiany's service, there were three regiments, with a force of 
 2,411. Of le^ular native infantry, 152 regiments, with a force of 115,989 ; and 
 (if irregular infantry, there were 13 corps, with a force of 10,376. 
 
 34. Do you wisli the Committee 10 understand by corps that you mean, 
 with reference to tiiat particular force, the same description of organization which 
 you liave characterized as regiments in regard to the other portion of the force ? 
 — With this difl'ercnce, that the regular regiments have an organized establish- 
 in en
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 3 
 
 ment of European officers, wliilst the irregulars have European officers detached p. MdviU, Esq. 
 from tlie regulars. ., L_ 
 
 35. With respect to tlie regular native cavahy, what was the force in 1834-5 ? H Dec. il>53, 
 — There was the same nuii)l)er of regiments as there is now, 21, with a force of 
 10,779. The irregular native cavah-y consisted of seven corps, and tiie streno-tli 
 was 4,545. The iiggrcgate of tlie artillery force was 14,544, divided ainono-gt 
 5 brigades of horse, 10 battalions European toot, and 4 battalions of native 
 foot. 
 
 30. You have already stated to tiie Committee the number of sipiare miles 
 over which the aruiy of India is distributed in the year 1852; can you state to 
 us the number of square miles over which it was distributed in 1834-5?— The 
 number of square miles of the Punjaub, I believe, is 80,000, U you deduct 
 that from the aggregate of 1,300,000, you arrive at the result desired. 
 
 37. There is also Scinde ? — IScinde is to be deducted also, having an area of 
 about 50,000 square miles. Tenasserim was added in 1820. 
 
 38. Can you state to the Committee, as you stated with reference to an 
 earlier question, the population which the existing army is designed to protect, 
 
 what was the ])opulation among whom the army was distributed in 1834-5 ? 
 
 The additions since made amount to not more than 8 or 10,000,000. 
 
 39. In other words, you would wish the Committee to understand that the 
 army of 1834-5 had to protect a population of 140,000,000, and was spread 
 over an area consisting of about 1,200,000 square miles? — Just so. 
 
 40. Such being the aggregate force at the different periods respectivelv, and 
 the areas over which that force was distributed at those ])eriods, will you state 
 
 to the Committee generally the cause of the increase which has been made :' 
 
 The great causes of the increase have been the annexation of the Punjaub, and 
 of Scinde. 
 
 41. When were those successive additions made? — The first addition to which 
 I may call your attention, has been that of three European reoiments. 
 one to each Presidency, raised during the progress of the Atfgliau war at the 
 earnest solicitation of Lord Auckland, who considered that the strength in 
 European infantry was inadequate. Since that time the number of Queen's 
 regiments has, on the requisition of the Court of Directors, been several times 
 augmented to meet the emergencies of the service, and the additional reoiments 
 sent out on tljose requisitions have been withdrawn when the emeroencv has 
 ceased, except as regards those sent on the outbreak in the Punjaub ; of those 
 five were sent, and four remain as a permanent addition consequent upon the 
 annexation of the Punjaub. I should state that the additional regiment of 
 dragoons which was sent on the requisition of the Court of Directors, is to 
 be withdrawn, the Governor-general considering that its services are no lono-er 
 required. 
 
 42. You have spoken of the increase in tlie number of European regiments 
 during the Aftghan war ; will you state what Jias been the increase of the 
 artillery ? — The numTber of batteries, horse and field, has been increased bv one 
 horse and 11 field batteries, being an increase in the number of field guns' from 
 312 to 384 for the whole of India ; and the strengtli of the corps of artillery has 
 been raised from 14,544 to 16,440. 
 
 43. Can you state to the Committee what has been the increase of the native 
 infantry in Bengal ? — To the native infantry of Bengal there has not been the 
 addition of a single regiment, nor to the infantry of Madras; but the native 
 infantry of Bombay were increased in the year 1846 by an addition of three 
 regiments. 
 
 44. Has there been any increase in the regular native cavalry r — No. 
 
 45. Has there been an increase in the irregular native cavalry ? — The irre- 
 gular native cavalry have undergone an increase of 18 regiments \o the Bengal, 
 and five to the Bombay army; 23 altogether. Of these 14 M'ere raised in con- 
 sequence of the Sikh wars, and of the annexation of the Punjaub and Scinde, 
 and three were raised for police purposes at Bombay. Of the remaining six 1 
 will read a list, namely, the 0th Irregular Horse raised as a portion of the Oude 
 auxiliary force under the treaty with the King of Oude, concluded in the 
 year 1837. The 7th Irregular Horse in place of the 2d Regiment of Light 
 Cavalry, which was disbanded in the year 1841. The 8th Irregular Horse, 
 raised from Shah Shoojah's horse at the time of the Caubul disaster. The 9th 
 Horse, raised in 1844, for service in Scinde; the 10th and 11th Irregular Horse, 
 
 o.io. A 2 raised
 
 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 P. Mrkill, Esq. raised for civil diitios in tlie Siuigur and Bundelknnd districts. The aggregate 
 force of irregular cavalry is now 21,134, being an increase of 1G,589. 
 
 14 Dec. 185?. 46. Will you he pleased to state, for the information of tiie Committee, what 
 
 i< the right undcrstnuding of the term " irregular," as applied either to cavalry 
 or to infantry : — The term is appHed in consequence of tiiose corps not being 
 j I furnished with a regular establisiiment of officers. That is the main distinction. 
 In tiie irregular cavalrv each trooper |)rovides and feeds his own horse ; hr also 
 provides his own equipment and arms, and the Government give him an allow- 
 ance for all tiiese objects; whereas in the regular service the Government 
 equips the trooper with his horse, arms and clothing, and gives him pay and 
 batta for his subsistence. 
 
 47. Are you able to state to the Committee what the amount is of allowance 
 made bv tiie Govcrninent .' — The allowance made by the Government for each 
 irregular trooper in Bengal is 20 rupees a month, out of which all tlie objects 
 that I have mentioned are provided by him. 
 
 48. Can you state to the Committee what is the pay of a trooper in the regular 
 cavalr)' r — 'Ihe pay of a regular trooper is nine rupees a month. 
 
 49. The difference of 11 rupees provides the irregular trooper with his horse 
 and his aims ? — Yes. 
 
 50. What is the difierence in the infantry between those of the regular and 
 iiTeguIar force as to pay ? — A rupee and a half a month is the difference, that 
 being the rate of half batta which the regular native infantry receive at all 
 times. This is only allowed to the local infantry when on service or escort duty. 
 An exception has been made in favour of the Ghoorka and some other corps, 
 who have the same batta as the regular infantry ; but the irregular and the 
 regular infantry soldier are on the same arrangements as regards their equip- 
 ment. 
 
 51. In the terms of enlistment is there any difference between the troops in 
 the three Presidencies r — There is no difference in the actual terms of enlistment, 
 but there is a material difference in the understanding upon which the men enlist. 
 In Bengal, except for the general service regiments, men enlist upon the under- 
 standing that they are not to be sent by sea for service in foreign parts ; but the 
 sepoys of the Madras and Bombay armies enlist upon the understanding that 
 tliey will go wherever they are sent. At the same time, it is the practice at 
 Madras to ap])rise the sepoys of a regiment ordered on foreign service, that 
 if any are unwilling to follow tlieir colours their places will be supplied by 
 volunteers. 
 
 52. flas the understanding to which you have called the attention of the 
 Committee with regard to enlistment had its origin in any deference to religious 
 feedings or opinions / — No doubt it had its origin in that cause. 
 
 .53. 'ilie castes of Bengal have a special repugnance to leaving their native 
 soil, and to moving by sea ? — They have. 
 
 .54. Is tiie pay of the .analogous services of cavalry, infantry, and artillery the 
 same in the tiiree Presidencies? — Under the arrangement wliieh was i)rought 
 into operation in the year 1837, and which is now very nearly carried out, tiie 
 allowances, pensions and pay are tiie same. 
 
 f,r>. How is tiie Eurojjean army in India recruited: — It is recruited almost 
 entirely in England. 
 
 ',6. Wiiat is tiie jiroportion required to be renewed annually? — It was com- 
 puted .some years ago tliat the decrement of life arising from deaths, invalidings, 
 disciiarges, and from men being promoted to stafi" appointments, was 12 percent, 
 per anniiiM. It is now, on the average of the wliole of India, about 10 per 
 cent, per annum ; so that it requires 10 men for every 100 to keep up the 
 establisiiment. 
 
 .'■.7. How is the native army in India recruited ? — It is recruited principally 
 in tiie Presidencj- in wliicii it serves; the Bengal army chiefly from Oude ; tiie 
 Madras army from the .Madras territories ; and tlie Bonibav army in the pro- 
 portion of about one half from tiie Bombay territories. Tlie remainder are 
 ilindostaiiets from tlie Upper Provinces of Bengal. 
 
 58. \\ iili the exception of the repugnance which you have described as exist- 
 ing on the ]):irt of tlie soliiiers in the Beugid Presidency, are all tin! enlistments 
 for unlimiti'd servicer — Yes; no period is mentioned in tiie attestations. 
 
 59. Has there been since 1835 any repugnance manifested by any of the 
 force in either of the otiier Presidencies to go u])on foreign service? — There 
 
 has
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 5 
 
 has been no vcpuonance inanifostefl by the ]Ma(Ir:i-; or Bombay annies to embark P. Mehill, Esq. 
 
 on that ac( ouiit, Init there have been difRciihics arising; at Madras out of their 
 
 misunderstanding the terms on which they embarked. Wiu-n those misunder- 14 D'c 1852. 
 standings were removed, all further difficulties ceased. 
 
 60. Then the Committee are to understand that, as far as your kuowledge of 
 the army of India extends, there has not at any time since 1834-5 been any 
 repugnance on the part of the troops lo march wherever the Company ordered 
 them r — Certainly not, except as regards some corps of the Bengal army ordered 
 to Scinde. 
 
 di. Can the forces of one Presidency be removed to another Presidency"' — 
 They can be, and arc at this moment, removed out of one Presidency into another, 
 under the orders of the Governor-general in Council, acting in concert with 
 the local governments. 
 
 62. Can officers be removed from a regiment in one Presidency to another 
 regiment in another Presidency? — Not to another regiment; but they niaj' 
 be removed to another Presidency for the performance of duties on the statf, 
 or in political employments, which are open to officers of the three Presi- 
 dencies. 
 
 63. Is there any gradation of rank on obtaining which an officer has greater 
 latitude in respect of removal to another Presidency ? — Not any. 
 
 64. But he may be removed for general ser-. ice, or for a itaii' appointment, or 
 for civil employment ? — Yes. 
 
 65. That is personal ? — Yes. 
 
 66. He is not removalile to another regiment, but he is removable from the 
 15th Native Infantry in Madras or Bombay, for instance, to a staff' appointment 
 in Calcutta ? — Yes, if the appointment is one open to othcers of the three Presi- 
 dencies, or to perform the duties of commandant or second in command of an 
 irregular corps in Bengal or elsewhere. 
 
 67. But the three armies of the three Presidencies are ke])t distinct? — Yes. 
 tiS. All nevertheless being subject to the control of one Governor-general? — 
 
 All under the Governors in Council of their respective Presidencies, subject to 
 the general control of the Governor-general in Council. 
 
 6g. Can you state to the Committee whether there has been, with reference 
 to European officers, an increase of demand for their employment on the staff, 
 including in the word " staff" also civil appointments? — The number of officers 
 required ior detached employments of all kinds in the year 1834-5 was 532; 
 it is now 1,040, being an increase of 508 for the whole Indian army, not includ- 
 ina; officers of eno-ir.eers. 
 
 70. What has been the proportionate demand for staff appointments in the 
 different Presidencies per regiment? — The demand for Bengal, if divided among 
 the several regiments, amounts on the average to six per regiment. At Madras 
 to three-and-a-half, and at Bombay to five per regiment ; the general average 
 beinji' five for each reoiment. 
 
 71. When was the present system of employing officers for the staff esta- 
 blished r — When regimental rise was established iu the year 1796, and it has 
 been in existence ever since. 
 
 72. Will you state the rule which prevents too many officers being withdrawn 
 from regiments for staff appointments?- — The rule is that not more than six 
 officers shall be withdrawn from any one regiment, of whom iiot more than 
 three shall be of the rank of captain. 
 
 73. Are the native irregular forces all officered by officers drawn from the 
 regular army? — They are. 
 
 74. What are the rvdes for furloughs to Europe on private affairs, which have 
 been introduced since 1834-5 ? — I am not aware of any change; Juiving been 
 introduced since that time. 
 
 7,> What are the existing rules? — After an officer has served for 10 j^ears in 
 India, he is entitled to furlough on private afi'airs for three years, during which 
 time he receives the full pay of his rank. If he holds a staff appointment, he re- 
 linquishes it i'rom the date of his quitting India. If he does not remain absent 
 the whole of the three years, he is allowed the benefit of the difi'erence in tiie 
 event of his again being allowed furlough on private afi'airs; that is, if he has 
 returned, say, one year before the time, he is allowed pay for that one year in a 
 subsequent furlough on private affairs. 
 
 76. In the event of his requiring to go to Europe on private affairs before he 
 o. to. A T lias
 
 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 P. i»/«^i«//, Esq. has attained the period at which it is lawful for him to do so, what is done? — 
 
 The arranpemeiit is, that if the ofiicer satisfies the Commander-in-chief that his 
 
 14 Dec. 1852. presence in England is urgently required, he may receive furlough for one year 
 without pay. 
 
 77. \ ou have given us the rules of furlough in the event of the urgency of 
 private affairs requiring an officer to ask it; are there distinct rules in the case 
 of officers requiring furlough on sick certificate? — When the meilical autiiorities 
 certify that it is absolutely necessar\- that an officer sliould proceed to Europe on 
 account of his Iiealth, furlough is granted him for three years on that account, 
 with the pay of liis rank. 
 
 7S. Are there any other rules for absence on account of health? — If the 
 medical authorities prescribe a change to the liills, or a voyage by sea, with leave 
 to visit the C;ipe, or Nca* South VVales, or any place within Indian limits, the 
 officer would be granted leave for a period not exceeding two years, during which 
 he would receive pay and regimental allowances, and, if a staff officer, one half 
 of his staff allowances. 
 
 "/(). IJow does that absence count in the event of his afterwards asking leave 
 to i;o to Europe on private affairs? — It has no effect on that leave. 
 
 80. What is the average number of officers absent on furlough from the dif- 
 ferent regiments of the army in India, not including the Queen's forces? — The 
 average number of officers now absent on furlough on private affairs is rather 
 less than one per regiment; those on sick certificate to Europe, about two-and- 
 a-half per regiment, 
 
 81 . Three-and-a-half per regiment are absent both for business and for health ? 
 — Yes, as respects those in Europe. 
 
 82. Have any other changes been introduced affecting the comfort or posi- 
 tion of Eurofican officers ? — Several measures have been adopted with regard to 
 European officers, which I will detail to the Committee, with their permission. 
 There has been an imjjortant change in the system of the retirement of Euro- 
 pean officers from the service. Prior to the year 1835 officers could only retire 
 on the pay of the rank which they had attained in their regiments, after 22 
 years' service in India. In that year it was resolved to introduce the principle 
 of granting pensions for length of service irrespective of rank. Tiie uncertainties 
 of regimental promotion are so great that some have attained the rank of major, 
 for instance, in 12 V'ears, whilst others do not attain it in 30 years, and so with 
 other ranks. With a view of lessening the effect of these disparities, a rule has 
 been established, giving to officers the alternative of retiring on a pension 
 graduated according to length of service, or on the pension of their rank, which- 
 ever is most advantageous to them. This regulation gives to military officers 
 the right of retiring on the pay of captain after 20 years' service, of major after 
 24 years, of lieutenant-colonel after 28 vears, and of cohmel after 32 years' ser- 
 vice. This change has had the efiect of soothing the feelings of the officers of 
 the army as to their prospects of retirement. They know that however unfor- 
 tunate they may be in the race of regimental rise, they arc guarded against 
 loss in their pensions ; at the same time it has not increased the number of 
 retirements to any material extent; officers wait on for the next grade of advan- 
 tage, and when they have attained that they wait on for " one year more." 
 
 83. Can you state to the Comuiittee what is the numl)er enlided to retire on 
 full pay? — The nund3er entitled to retire on full pay at this time is 1,098, ol' 
 whom 357 can claim the advantage of pay of a superior rank. 
 
 84. Can you state to the Committee whether tliis privileged number has or 
 has not increased ? — Yes, it apj)ears to be annually increasing. By a return for 
 
 he year 1850 it was 4G1 ; by the last return it was 557. 
 
 85. Do you consider this an advantage or a detriment to the service ?~It is 
 a disadvantage that officers should remain in the service after they have attained 
 an age at which their energies diminish. 
 
 86. Can you state to the Committee the average ages at which officers have 
 an opportunity of enjoying this privilege of retiring on full pay? — During the 
 last five years, that is, up to the time to which the accounts are made up from 
 1845 to 1850, die average age of officers retiring as captain \\as 41 years, as 
 major 45 years, as lieutenant-colonel 48 years, and as a colonel 56 years. 
 
 87. Can you state the average length of service of those officers so retiring on 
 full pay? — The average length of service l)y the officers who have retired within 
 the last five years on captain's pay is 23 years, major's pay 25 years, lieutenant- 
 colonel's
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 7 
 
 colonel's 30, and colonel's 38 years. Tliis includes aI)soii(ji' (,ii sickiKj^^ or P. MelvHl, Esq. 
 
 private afl'airs. Their actual service in India ol' course appruxiuiatt's iiearlv to 
 
 the scale of retirement. H Dec. 1852. 
 
 88. Can 3'ou explain to the Committee whether there be any other adv.niiage, 
 in addition to that whicli the Company provide, with regard to officers who 
 have been in tlieir service ; for instance, Lord (Jlive's Fund? — Lord Clive's Fund 
 has been superseded almost entirely as regards European officers l)v the g:rantof 
 retired half pay, at rates wiiich are more than those allowed bv Lord Cbve's 
 Fund. 
 
 89. Will you state to the Committee tiie origin of Lord Clive's Fund ? — It 
 was composed of a donation presented by Lord Clive to tiie East India Com- 
 pany in the year 1770, amounting to 100,000/. 
 
 go. That was a j^ratuitous grant of Lord Clive ? — Yes ; it was for the purpose 
 of forming a fund to provide for invalided officers, soldiers, and widows of the 
 Company's army. That fund has been long since exhausted, principal and in- 
 tertst, and the pensions which are now payable nomiiiallv Irom Lord (,'live's 
 Fund are, in fact, supplied from the Company's casii. 
 
 91. Tiie fund which had its origin in that munificent donation still retains the 
 name, while, substantially, the money is supplied from otlier distinct sources? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 92. In addition to the retiring pay which the Company give, after a certain 
 length (jf service, and at certain ages, will you state whether there are anv 
 voluntary associations, like the Madras Fund, which have been emploved to 
 supply retiring pensions to different servants of tiie Company r — There are mili- 
 tary funds at each of tlie Presidencies chiefly to provide pensions to widows and 
 children, supported partly by the donations of the East India Company, but 
 principally by the subscriptions of officers. 
 
 93. Are tliose subscriptions rateably attached to different ranks? — They are. 
 
 94. Then they are not voluntary in one sense, as affecting the interests of in- 
 dividual officers?- — The rates have been altered from time to time bv the deter- 
 mination of the officers, as shown by their votes. ■* 
 
 95. But every officer in each Presidency pays a certain sum ? — He does. 
 
 9(5. Will you specify any other advantages which have been granted bv the 
 Coin|)any to European officers during the existence of the Act of Parliament 
 which now governs India ? — 1 may mention an advantage as appertaining to 
 European officers, that special pensions have been granted to the widows and 
 orphans of those who have been killed in action, and also that officers have been 
 allowed to make remittances through the Company's treasury for the maintenance 
 of their children and families in Eui'ope. 
 
 97. Instead of passing them through mercantile houses? — Yes. I may also 
 mention that tlie privilege of being ajipointed aide-de-camp to the Queen lias 
 been granted to the Company's officers, and that 13 lieutenant-colonels have 
 been so distinguished, 'ibis privilege is attended by promotion to the rank of 
 colonel, so that it has the advantage of rendering officers eligible for commands 
 sooner than they otherwise would bv, a great public benefit in a seniorit}^ 
 service. 
 
 98. Have there not been honours and distinctions giv-n." — There has been 
 great liberality on the part of the Commander-in-Chief and hijr Majesty's Govern- 
 ment in granting special brevets and distinctions to the Company's officers. No 
 less than 350 have been in the last 15 years granted special brevet rank for 
 services in action, and 213 in the same time have received decorations of the 
 Bath also for services in the field. 
 
 99. With regard to the European soldiers, will you state to the Committee 
 the advantages which have been given to them by the Company during the 
 period of the present government of India? — There has been great anxiety 
 manifested by the home authorities, and also by the governments in India, to 
 adopt all practicable measures for improving the condition of the European 
 soldiery, and I will enumerate some of them. The management of troo])S and 
 recruits, as to their diet whilst on the voyage to India, has been much im|n'oved. 
 Instead of giving them rations of spirits, as had been the custom from time im- 
 memorial, they are now supplied with malt liquor. 
 
 100. In what proportion ?— One pint a day. Spirits are strictly prohibited. 
 This change was made in the hope that on the arrival of the soldiers in India 
 they would not only be in better health, but would be disposed to drink malt 
 
 0.10. A 4 liquor
 
 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 P. Metvill, Esq. Hquor in prcfureiice to spirits. Tlie experiment has been entirely successful. 
 
 It is only necessary to keep the canteens fully supplied witli beur at a cost 
 
 14 Dec. 1852. within the soldier's means of purchase, to ensure the full benefit of the chano-e 
 in the ini])roved healtli of the troo|)S. 
 
 101. Have you auv statistics with which you can favour the Committee in 
 respect of the effect of that chan<ie upon the health of the soldieis, either in 
 their voviige to India or during- fiieir residence in India? — I can state that the 
 health of the troops at Madras and Bombay, at wjiich Presidencies porter has 
 been fully supplied for their use, has improved. In tiie last three years the 
 mortality at Aladras was less tlian 2 per cent, on the average; at Bombay it 
 was about 3A, but in Bengal it was 5i per cent. 
 
 102. What was the mortality in those Presidencies respectively previously to 
 the introduction of the present system and the abandonment of the licensed use 
 of spirits^ — I have no return whicii will slu)w that accuratelv ; but I may 
 state generallv that the mortality was higlier at those Presidencies than it is 
 now. 
 
 I O.J. Vou have no moral doubt of that fact, tliougii you cannot furnisii direct 
 statistics to prove it? — I have not the least doubt of it. All the medical autho- 
 rities concur in slating that, if the soldiers can be prevailed upon to use beer 
 instead of spirits, their health and longevity will greatly improve, 
 
 104. Has any improvement been made in respect to their lodging, barracks, 
 and bedding.' — As to the care of the Eui'opean soldiers in India, great improve- 
 ments have been made in their barracks; those constructed of late years are on 
 a larger scale, and with improved veniilation. The allowance of bedding has 
 been increased. 
 
 105. Is the bedding iron ? — Iron cots are now generally introduced. The 
 scliools have been rendered more efficient. 
 
 106. In regiments or in stations?— In both. Ijil)raries have been established 
 with regiments. Punkalis have been put up in their hospitals and l)arracks. 
 Ice has been allowed for the hospitals ; that is considered by the medical autho- 
 rities to be a great improvement; the knapsack to the w-eight of 40 lbs. is now 
 carried for them on the line of march by the Government. 
 
 107. It is not carried by men? — It is carried in hackeries, or on camels, 
 according to the nature of the service. Plunging baths have been constructed 
 wherever there was an adequate supply of water, and the means of daily ablution 
 Jiave been rendered more coni))lete. Hill stations have been established for 
 barracks and convalescent hospitals. 
 
 106. With res])ect to the ehapbdns; what provision has been made for the 
 European soldiers? — ^The numi)er of chaplains in India is ahout i;3(), and care 
 is taken that one oi those chaplains shall be at tlu: head-(pra'tei's of everv 
 European regiment. 
 
 lOt). ^ ou have stated generally the advantages which have been granted to 
 the European officer with reference to liis allowances and pensions to his widow, 
 and liie honour which has been conferred tipon him of being allowed to lie an 
 aide-de-camp, and the number of the officers who have been admitted to the Order 
 of the Bath; will yon state with respect to the warrant officers whether any 
 corresponding advantages have been granted to them? — Warrant officers are 
 now eligible to have commissions granted to them ; that is a new feature in 
 tlieir posi!i(ui. 
 
 no. To non-commissioned officers liave any advantages been granted ? — To 
 non-commissioned officers of distinguished service in action with the enemy 
 the >:ime reward is held out. 
 
 III. Have the native officers reciiivcd auv orders of distinction .' — ^In the 
 native army two ordi rs of di-tinction hav(.' been established since the year 1833. 
 Out- oi tiiem i- call.d tlie Order of 13ritish India, and the other the Order of 
 Meiit. '1 he Order of Britisii India is for native officers of long and honourable 
 service; it has two classes of ] 00 each. The fu'st cl.iss, 100 souhahdars, with 
 an allowance of two rupees a day each ; aufl the second class, 100 native officers, 
 with one rupee a day each. Tlie Order of M(;rit is for soldiers of all ranks who 
 distinguish theinsclvcn in action with the enemy. That order is composed of 
 three classes ; the first <dass receive full )jav in addition to ordinary pay and 
 pensio . 'I'he second class receive two-thirds, and the thiid class one-third of 
 tiic same. For eacii of these orders there is an appropriate decoration. 
 
 I 12. Are you aware whether there has been any dissatisfaction among the 
 
 native
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 native troops arising from any alleged interference with their religion on the part 
 of the (lovernnient since 1834-5 ? — Cert;iinly not. 
 
 113. Wilhont reference to pecuniary, or any other cause of dissatisfaction, 
 there has certainly not been since 1834-.") any dissatisfaction arising from that 
 cause ? — Certainly not. 
 
 1 14. lias tliere been dissatisfaction arising from any other canse : — There have 
 l)een instances in wln'eh regiments have been dissatisfied in consequence of 
 pecuniary elaims. 
 
 1 15. That is with reference to allowances? — Yes. 
 
 ^^^6. The Committee understand you to say that tlie army of India of the 
 three Presidencies is on one and the same footing, so !ar as all new recruits are 
 concerned ? — Yes. 
 
 117. But tliere is a portion still remaining under the old system? — Yes, a 
 portion of al)out one-sixth in Madras and Bombay. 
 
 nS. Takiu"- a oeneral view of the army of India, can you state to the Com- 
 niittee anytliing which, in your judgment, would improve its condition as to 
 system, or its efiicieney as to servicer — I am not aware of any improvement of 
 that kind wliich can be suggested. I am quite persuaded that any necessity 
 for such an alteration would have been seen by the local governments and home 
 authorities, and would have been carried out so far as tinancial circumstances 
 would permit. 
 
 119. Have t!ie offices of Captain-general and Governor-general ever been 
 united in the same individual since the time of the Marquis of Wellesley? — 
 They have not. 
 
 120. In the event of a ditl'erence of opinion between the Governor-general of 
 India and the Commander-in-chief of the forces in India, is there any discretion 
 left to the Governor-general, either by statute or by the terms of his commis- 
 sion, or by practice, in the exercise of which that difference of opinion might be 
 decided?- — Bv statute, whenever the Governor-general considers tiiat the inte- 
 rests of India require that he should act upon his own individual judgment, 
 he is empowered so to do. 
 
 121. He takes upon himself the absolute responsibility, bearing the conse- 
 quences, be they what they may ? — He takes upon himself the absolute responsi- 
 bility, recordiu"- his reas(ms for liavino- done so. 
 
 122. And that power has been conferred ujjon him in consequence of the 
 necessity which differences of opinion, arising before the year 1834, clearly ren- 
 dered necessarv ?- -The power was given in the year 1793. 
 
 123. Mr. E. Ellicc] You stated the difference of pay per man between the re- 
 gular and irregular forces, but not the difference per battalion ; can you supply 
 that information to the Committee? — lam in possession of a statement showing 
 the cost of each description of regiments, which I can place upon the Minutes of 
 the Committee, if they please. 
 
 124. Cliairvuin.'] \Vill you please to deliver in that statement? — I will. It is 
 as follows : — 
 
 P. Mclvill, Esq. 
 14 Dec. 1852. 
 
 Comparative Cost of a Regiment of each Ai-ni of the Service in India, Queen's and Company's. 
 
 Her Majesty's 
 
 DragooQS, 
 
 8 Troops : 
 
 701 Non- 
 
 Coinniissionetl 
 
 and Rank and 
 
 File. 
 
 £. 
 7U,080 
 
 Native 
 
 Cavalry, 
 
 G Troops: 
 
 500 Native 
 
 Commissioned 
 
 Noii-Com- 
 
 missioned, 
 
 and Hank and 
 
 File. 
 
 £. 
 
 31,810 
 
 Brigade of 
 
 Horse Arlilleiy, 
 
 conslstin*; ol 
 
 3 European and 
 
 I Native Troops ; 
 
 341 European 
 
 Nun.Ci)mniis* 
 
 sioned and 
 
 Rank and Kile, 
 
 and :ilS Native 
 
 (-.'oinriiissinneil, 
 
 Non-Commis- i 
 
 sioneil, and 
 Rai.k antj Kile, | 
 intludin;^ 1 
 Gun Luscars. 
 
 £ 
 
 59,310 
 
 Battalion of 
 Euiopean 
 Fool Artillery, 
 CDiiMsiin;: ot 
 4 Companies : 
 33(i European 
 Ps'on-Commis- 
 
 sioned and 
 Rajik and File, 
 anil 140 Native 
 Commissioned 
 
 and 
 
 Rank and File ; 
 
 linn Lascars. 
 
 £■ 
 
 31,020 
 
 
 Regiment 
 
 Batlalio'i of 
 
 of Her 
 
 Native 
 
 iNIajesty's 
 
 Foot Artillery, 
 
 Inlanlry, 
 
 G Companies: 
 
 9 Com- 
 
 G30 Native 
 
 panies : 
 
 Connnissioned, 
 
 1,0G8 
 
 Non-Com- 
 
 Kon-Com- 
 
 missioned, 
 
 missioned 
 
 and Rank and 
 
 and Rank 
 
 File. 
 
 and File. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 ii2,:;:i0 
 
 01,120 
 
 Regiment 
 
 of 
 Company's 
 European 
 Infantry, 
 10 Com- 
 panies : 
 970 
 Non-Corn . 
 missioned 
 and Rank 
 and File. 
 
 £. 
 
 52,3i:0 
 
 0.10. 
 
 B 
 
 Regiment of 
 
 Native 
 
 Infantry, 
 
 10 Companies : 
 
 1,1 GO Native 
 
 Commissioned 
 
 Non-Com- 
 
 niissioned, 
 
 and Rank and 
 
 File. 
 
 £. 
 L'5,C70 
 
 Regiment of 
 
 Irregular 
 
 Cavalry, of 
 
 G Ressalahs : 
 
 584 Native 
 
 'Commissioned 
 
 Non-Com- 
 
 missioned, 
 
 and Rank and 
 
 File. 
 
 £• 
 18,770 
 
 125. Mr. 
 
 Regiment of 
 
 lAical 
 
 Infantry, 
 
 of 
 
 10 Companies: 
 
 940 Native 
 
 Commissioned, 
 
 Non-Com- 
 
 missioned, 
 
 and Rank and 
 
 File. 
 
 £. 
 13,700
 
 30 MINUTES OF EA'IDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F.Mehill, Esq. 125. Mr. E. Ellice.] You stated tliat 10 per cent, was the annual loss upon 
 
 European troops which it was necessary to supply b_v recruits in tliis country; 
 14 Dec. J852. what is the annual loss with tlie native troops? — The loss with tlie native troops 
 is al»out 1 i per cent, per annum. 
 
 126. Then tiie difference between the loss in the native and in the European 
 troops is about 8 i per cent.? — I would beg to e.xplain that the loss of 1 i per 
 cent, in the native armj' is from death alone, wiiereas the loss of 10 per cent, 
 in the European regiments i« from various causes ; from invaliding, promotion 
 to staff appointments in India, retirement, and other causes. 
 
 127. Mr. Hardi)ige.] You have stated that the aggregate amount of the Indian 
 army is 289,529 ; can you inform the Committee what is the aggregate amount 
 of the forces in the pay of native states? — We have no means of stating that 
 accuratelj' ; I iiave seen it represented to be more than equal to our own 
 force. 
 
 !28. Has not a return been called for by the Government of India, and fur- 
 nished to the Government, stating the amount.' — Returns were called for when 
 Lord Hardinge was Governor-general ; but with regard to that particular point, 
 they found it impossible to obtain an accurate result ; they had results to a cer- 
 tain extent, but they were not complete, except as regards the contingents 
 officered by British officers; the returns of those are complete. 
 
 129. You have understood that the amount of the forces in the pay of native 
 states equals the amount of our Indian army, if it does not exceed it? — Yes, 
 
 130. Mr. i/eme.v.] What is the amount of the contingents? — Thirtv-two 
 thousand. 
 
 131. Mr, Hardinge.^] You have stated that the irregular cavalry keep their 
 own horses; is there not in the irregular cavalry another description of trooper 
 who is enlisted for the purpose of riding extra horses? — The native officers 
 have the privilege of letting out horses to the extent of five per officer; to that 
 extent the troopers do not ride their own horses; they are tiie properly of the 
 native officers. 
 
 132. Are not the irregular cavalry most efficient in protecting commissariat 
 stores and providing rear-guards, and do not they move at almost any moment 
 without any baggage, and are they not a very efficient branch of the cavalry 
 in India ? — There is no doubt that they are highly efficient for the purposes 
 specified. 
 
 133. is not the expense of them about half the expense of the regular cavalry : 
 — Yes. ■ 
 
 13.1. They have fewer dooley bearers and fewer camels? — Yes. 
 
 13.5. Has it ever been proposed to give the regular cavalry the native saddle 
 and tiie native sword ? — Some years since the Government of Bengal were 
 authorised to adopt tlie native sword, if approved. After careful inquiry, it was 
 determined by that Government not to adopt the tuluar, but to reintroduce the 
 curved sabre, which had been in use before tiie regulation sword of Her Majesty's 
 service was adopted. This curved sabre is now in use in the Bengal Light Cavalry. 
 The pattern of saddle has bL'en changed more than once ; it is now what is known 
 as the " Hussar " saddle. 
 
 136. How many Sikh corps have been raised in the Punjanb? — In the year 
 1849, there were five corps of infantry raised in the Punjaub, and five of cavalry ; 
 those are the whole of the additions made in the Punjaub in the year 1849. Three 
 light fiiTd batteries were added in 1851. 
 
 137. There were two Sikh corps attached to the regular army raised in 184G ? 
 — Yes ; the regiments of Loodiana and Ferozepore, 
 
 138. And one ofthose volunteered for Burniah .' — Yes. 
 
 139. You have stated that the allowances of the sepoy, generally speaking, have 
 not altered since the last charter; has not hutting money been given to the 
 Bengal sepoy r — Yes. 
 
 14C1. ,\nd that was confined before that time to Madras and Bombay ? — It 
 was 
 
 141 . Was there not also an increase made to the scale of pensions for wounds ? 
 — There was. 
 
 142. Is the system of promotion as regards the nativi; non-commissioned 
 officers the same in Madras and Bijn^al .' — No; at Madras they sidect for promo- 
 tion for the non-commissioned and commissioned otficcrs, wdiereas in Bengal 
 the system is one of almost strict seniority. 
 
 143. Which
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 143. Wiiicli system in yoin opinion works the best? — There is no doubt that 
 the systems of Madras and Bombay work very well, but the policy of any im- 
 povta"^iit change in this respect in Bengal is very doubtful. 
 
 144. You Uiink it would not be prudent to make any change?— Not any 
 material change. * 
 
 145. Mr. Mangles^ Why do you think it would not be prudent ? — The habits 
 of the sepoys are sucli that a change ot that kind might affect their devotion to 
 the service. 
 
 146. Mr. Haiduifje.'] Is not a man when he reaches the rank of subaiidar and 
 subahdar-major often very old, and in some cases infirm ? — I observe, on looking 
 at the ages of the native officers in the Bengal regiments, that some of the seniors 
 are of a great age, and should be invalided ; but many of the juniors do not 
 appear to be of an age likely to incapacitate them for active duties. 
 
 147. Has the Regulation limiting the number ot officers absent from the regi- 
 ments on staff employ been strictly adhered to; has there nut been a departure 
 from the Regulation / — I believe the Government have adhered to the Regu- 
 lation as faras was possible; but where cases of emergency have arisen, the 
 number lias I)een exceeded. 
 
 i4cS. Have )ou not heard of some cases where a regiment has been commanded 
 by a lieutenant?— Such cases have arisen for a short period. 
 
 " 149. Can you suggest any means for remedying the deficiency of European 
 officers for the native corps? — The Government at home have suggested tiiat the 
 drain from the regiments of the three Presidencies shall be equalised ; if that 
 measure is carried out. there will be no undue strain upon any one regiment in 
 the service. 
 
 1.50. Do you see any objection to the Company's officers taking rank with the 
 Queen's officers in this country ? — They do take rank now, by courtesy, with the 
 Queen's officers in this country in receptions at Court ; in public ceremonials, 
 and on all other occasions. 
 
 151. But that is merely by courtesy .' — Yes. 
 
 152. Can you mention any additional boons which have been granted to the 
 sepoy bevonci those you liave mentioned in regard to an increased scale of pen- 
 sions? — Yes ; good-eouduct pay has been granted to every sepoy after 16 years' 
 service, and again after 20 years' service. Tiie pay of jemadars of infantry 
 regiments has been increased, and pensions for wounds received in action with 
 the enemy, and the pensions to the heirs of native soldiers killed in action have 
 been increased. The rules granting them priority of hearing in the judicial 
 courts have been revived and rendered more complete. They have been granted 
 compensation when the price of provisions forming their diet exceeds a certain 
 sum. The Bengal sepoys have been granted hutting money; their letters from 
 
 ■ their families now pass free of postage, and various minor arrangements have 
 been adopted calculated to add to their comfort. 
 
 153. Mr. A*. Hildyard.'] I understt,od you to state that in 1834-5, when a 
 very considerable reduction of the force took place, economical considerations 
 contributed to that reduction ? — They did. 
 
 1.^4. Am I to understand from that that the army was reduced to a lower 
 state of efficiency than would otherwise have been, in your opinion, desirable ? — 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 1,55. Mr. Hemes.'] You stated that the smallest number of the army was, at 
 the time it was reduced, to the extent of 108,000 men ; in what year was that ? — 
 Since the year 1834 the smallest number to wliich the army was reduced was in 
 the year 1835, and then it amounted to 183,760, being 108,000 less than in the 
 year 18-26. 
 
 156. And since 1834 the largest number of the army has been the present 
 amount of 289,529 ? — In the year 1847 the nundjer was 291,796. 
 
 157. What is the difference between the total charge in those two years .' — I 
 have not the charge for 1834 here ; it was between 7,000,000/. and 8,000,000/. ; 
 as far as I recollect the ditt'erence is about 3,000,000/. 
 
 1.58. And tiic increase of the poi)ulation of British India has been from 
 130,000,000 to 150,000,000 ?— The present aggregate, including all the pro- 
 tected states, is computed at 150,000,000. 
 
 159. Mr. V. Smith.] You stated that officers of the Indian army are not per- 
 mitted, in this country, to take rank with the officers of the Queen's army, except 
 
 0.10. B 2 by 
 
 P. Mekill, Esq. 
 14 Dec. 1851.
 
 12 MIXUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 P. Mehill, Esq. by coiirtesy ; why are they not, by riglit, permitted to take rank with them ^— 
 
 Iheir commissions are for the East Indies. 
 
 14 Dec. 1852. ]t)C. Therefore tliev would not take any rank here.'^ — No. 
 
 1(1 1. ]\Ir. MatigU's.'} Tliey have the Queen's commissions equally with other 
 officers, hut their commissions are confined to the East Indies ? — Exactly. 
 
 162. Lord Stanley.'] Can vou give the comparative expense of a regiment of 
 native infantry and a regiment of Queen's infantry ? — The amount is specified 
 in the account 1 have given in. 
 
 163. Have 3'ou stated the difierence of expense between a regiment of irre- 
 gular native cavalrv and a regiment of regular native cavahy ? — It is included 
 in the statement laid before the Committee. 
 
 1()4. Is there not a very general feeling among the officers of the Indian army 
 with regard to the superioritj' in point of efficiency of the irregular over the 
 regular native cavalry? — I have heard snch an opinion frequently expressed by 
 infantry officers; but officers of the regular cavalry do not entertain that opinion. 
 Each hrancli appears to 1)C considered efficient for its own proper duties. 
 
 it)5. Can you give any statement as regards the Sikh troops at present in the 
 service of the Company? — I have not an accurate statement as regards those 
 regiments which iiave been raised for service in the Punjaub. Those raised by 
 Lord Hardinge in the year 1846 are nearly wholly composed of Sikhs; those 
 raised subsequently are only partiallv so composed. Tlie number of Siklis 
 in the native infantry, as returned by the last report, was only .jO. 
 
 166. You have not stated what is the number of commissioned officers in a 
 regiment of native infantry ?■ — -The number at present is 23, exclusive of the 
 colonel ; of native officers tliere are 20. 
 
 167. What is the number of non-commissioned officers? — There are 60 havil- 
 dars and 60 naicks. 
 
 i()S. Taking commissioned and non-commissioned officers together, is not 
 the number of ofiicers, commissioned and non-commissioned, mucli larger in pro- 
 portion to the number of privates than in the case of any other service in the 
 world ? — It is. 
 
 169. Does not that arise from the system of having all the superior officers 
 Europeans, and all the inferior officers natives? — It does. 
 
 170. Sir X riogt/.] IIovv has the office of Commander-in-chief of the forces 
 been tilled up at tlie Presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay ; has it 
 b^en always filled by Queen's officers? — Not always; but there has been no 
 instance, during this century, in wliich the appointment of Connnander-in-chief, 
 either of India or at the minor Presidencies, has been given to the Company's 
 officers; they have succeeded occasionalh' to the temporary command incon- 
 sequence of the death of the officers holding commands in chief, but tliev have 
 not in any one instance during that time been so appointed. 
 
 171. Do you think it would conduce to the good of the public service and to 
 the benefit of the Indian army, if an Indian officer was occasionally appointed to 
 the chief command at the diti'erent Presidencies ? — It could not fail of being- 
 advantageous, that officers who have been wholly devoted to tlie service of India, 
 and who are familiar witii the character, habits, and wants of the troops in that 
 climate, native as well as European, should be occasionally appointed to the 
 chief (■omniamis; such appointments would stimulate the zeal of the officers, and 
 woidd be a distinction sought with the most ardent anxiety. 
 
 I 72. Mr. A/aiu/lcf.] Has it ever occurred to you to look into the proportions in 
 which honours from the Crown are granted to officers of the Royal army, and to 
 officers of (he Indian army respectively, taking the numbers of the officers of the 
 in<lian army of a rank to receive honours from the Crown and those of Her 
 Majesty's armv rcsjiectivcly ? — There is no doubt tiiat the proportion allotted 
 by Regulation is in favour of the Queen's army, but the allowance! practically 
 ti) the East India Company's army is considered to be liberal. 
 
 IT3. Why should it be considered to be liberal if it be less in proportion to 
 tin; honours granted to those wlio are immediately in the service of Her Majesty ? 
 — 1 do rot think tliat the same arithmetical proportion by Regulation has ever 
 been rigidly nniintaiiied or has been desired. 
 
 174. Why should not ofiicers equally serving the country, only under the 
 interposed government of the East India Company, receive as large a proportion 
 
 of
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 0\ INDIAN TERRITORIES. 13 
 
 J 
 
 of those wliicli liave been called tlie eliieC rewards of the nation as tliose who are />, Mekill Eso 
 
 serving more immediate!}' as Queens officers ! — No doubt tlie one is as much 
 
 entitled to favourable consideration as tlie other. j . ^g^ jg,2 
 
 175. Have they not served Her Majesty withcfjual talent and devotion? — 
 Undoubtedly they have. I would mention that, in tlie late eanipai^iis in India, 
 officers who have been distingiiisiied have received honours from the Crown, 
 without any reference to the number fixed by Regulation. Tlie present number 
 of Companions of the Batli exceeds, in consequence, by 50 the nnndjer so 
 lixed. 
 
 176. Mr. Tlardifige.^ In the Queen's regiments the establishment of officers 
 is six captains, 23 lieutenants, and about eight ensigns ; is not that establish- 
 ment of subalterns a very large one?' — The establishment of subalterns in the 
 Queen's regiments in India is larger than that in the Queen's regiments in 
 other parts of the world. The East India Company have at different times asked 
 that that difference should be corrected ; but hitherto the establishment has 
 remained as I have mentioned. 
 
 177. Do you conceive that a reduction in that number might be made without 
 diminishino- the efficiency of the service? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 17S. You have stated the number of horse and field guns in the Indian army; 
 can you slate the proportion of nine to six-pounders ? — Tiie field batteries are 
 all nine-pounders, and the horse artillery are six-pounders. 
 
 179. Take the Bengal army, for instance, what is the proportion of nine to 
 six-pounders?- — In the Bengal army there are five brigades of horse artillery, 
 the whole are armed with six- pounders; the foot batteries, amounting to 18, are 
 armed with nine-pounders. 
 
 180. Has the detachment system been tried in Bengal: — It has been tried 
 experimentally, and has not been adopted. 
 
 181. Can you inform the Committee whether in action the Indian artillery 
 carry the same number of rounds as the Royal artillery carry? — I am not 
 aware of the number of rounds carried by the Royal artillery ; but Lord 
 Hardinge oi-dered that there should be an ample supply in the frontier depots 
 (I believe 1,000 rounds per gun), and that artillerv proceeding on service should 
 take 220 rounds a gun (six-pounders), exclusive of reserve ammunition, with the 
 park. 
 
 182. You believe it to be the same now, according to the Regulation? — Tlie 
 troops on the frontier are kept on the same scale as that which was establish(!d 
 by Lord Hardinge. 
 
 1S3. Can you suggest any improvement in the pay department of the ai'my r 
 — The Court of Directors have lately expressed an opinion that it would be 
 desirable to divide the system of audit in Bengal into two portions, there being 
 a separate auditor for the Upper Provinces and one tor the Lowei- Provinces. 
 
 184. Has there not been great delay in receiving answers to applications 
 made? — There has; and this suggestion is made with a view to obviating that 
 delay. 
 
 185. The Auditor-general corresponds with the Secretary-at-War in this 
 country ?— The duties of the military Auditor-general are those of audit and of 
 supervision over the military expenditure. 
 
 iSf). Do you see any objection to granting an officer one year's leave to 
 Europe after six years' service, and another year's leave after another six years' 
 service ? — I think it would be very desirable to divide tlie three years' furlough 
 into separate portions of one year each, commencing at the end of every six or 
 seven years, and to grant furloughs in the same ratio throughout an officer's 
 service. 
 
 187. An officer must now serve 20 years before he becomes entitled to a 
 pension: — Yes, unless he is compelled to retire from loss of health. 
 
 1 88. Mr. Baillic] You were asked a question with regard to the proportion 
 of honours granted to Queen's officers and to officers of the Company's army ; 
 ks it not the fact that the ]iay of the Queen's army, when not serving in India, 
 is much less than the pay of the Company's army ?— -The pay and allowances of 
 the troops in India are more than the pay and allowances of officers of thi- 
 Queen's army serving in the West Indies. 
 
 0.10. B 3 189. Or
 
 14 MmUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 p. Melvilk, Esq. 189. Or in other paitt; oi" tlie world ? —Yes ; but tiie difference is mucli less 
 
 with regard to officers serving in Ceylon ; there they have colonial allowances in 
 
 14 Dec. 1852. addition to their pay. 
 
 190. But in the West Indies, or any of the distant colonies, they have no 
 colonial allowances ?— In the West Indies at present colonial allowances do not, 
 I believe, exist. 
 
 igi. Is it not tlie fact that the pensions and retiring allowances in the Com- 
 pany's army are mucli higher than those of the Queen's troops ? — Yes. 
 
 192. And the ofHcers of rljc Indian army have this advantaue, there they do 
 not purchase their commissions r — Yes. 
 
 1Q3. Then, in point of fact, the service altogetlier is niucli more advan- 
 tageous than the Queen's service ?— Without entering into comparisons (whicli, 
 to be complete, must include many collateral considerations), I would observe 
 that it lias always been tiie svstem of t.'ie East India Company to secure the 
 just promotion of tlieir servants, and fo make liberal provision for them and 
 their families ; by the constant adoption of this course their service is justly 
 popular, and presents as fine a field as can exist for the application of talent, 
 zeal, and energy ; a better opportunity can scarcely offer for the development of 
 individual merit than is furnished in the service of the East India Company. 
 
 194. Mr. Clive.'] Do not you believe, as far as vou know, that no dissatisfac- 
 tion exists in the army with regard to distinctions ? — Decidedly none. 
 
 195. Lord Slanley.] Is there not a difference between the rank whicli native 
 officers may attain to in the regular and in the irregular corps? — In the 
 irregular corps they attain to a higher relative rank than they attain in the 
 regular corps. 
 
 196. For instance, is it not the fact that in the irregular corps raised in the 
 Punjaub a regiment is commanded by a native colonel? — Not in the East 
 India Company'.^ service ; all those regiments are commanded by European 
 officers. There is no regiment in the service commanded bv a native officer. 
 
 197. Mr. Baillie.] In the regular native force, what is tlie highest rank to 
 which a native can attain ;— That of subahdar major. 
 
 198. How many subahdar majors are there to each regiment? — There is one 
 to each regiment. 
 
 199. Mr. jlJangles.] Do not yon think tiiat there is great anxiety on the 
 part of the officers of the East India Company that they should be occa- 
 sionally appointed Commander-in-chief at the several Presidencies? — 1 think 
 there is great anxiety on their |)art that they should participate in those com- 
 mands. 
 
 •200. Lord Staidei/] You have referred to the furlough regulations as they 
 affect the ol^cers of tlie Company's army ; is it not the fact tiiat all those regula- 
 tions originated at a time when the communication between India and England 
 was on a very different footing from what it is now .3 — Undoubtedly; they all 
 originated in the year 179G. 
 
 201. In point of fact, those regulations originated at the time when the com- 
 munication between India and England occupied four or five months ? — More 
 than that. 
 
 202. And they are, therefore, to a certain extent, inapplicable to the present 
 time? —They certainly require revision. 
 
 203. Mr. Hardhuje.] When the army takes the field. Queen's officers are 
 eligible for the a]t])()intnient of deputy quartermaster-general and brigade major, 
 but in time of ]jeace they are ineligible ; do you see any great objection to tiieir 
 being eligible for those appointments in time of peace? — If the emergencies of 
 the service require that you sliould withdraw Queen's officers from their regi- 
 ments for those appointments, I do not see that there would be any objection to 
 their being so withdrawn. 
 
 204. In the enumeration of the irregular infantry, did you include ail the 
 local corps, such as the Ihmdh cund legion ? — Yer^, tin; wliole. 
 
 20.J. Mr. Baillie.] Will you state what are the several native states in aiiicli 
 tliere are contingents, and the number in each btate ? — I have m^t the return 
 here ; but I can state generally that the Gwalior state furnishes a contingent of 
 about 8,000 m(!n ; the Nizam about 9,000; the Guicowar, 3,000; Mysore, 
 nearly 5,000. Tlic aggregate of the contingents is about 32,000 men. 
 
 206. Are
 
 SELI-.CT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TKIIRITORIES. 15 
 
 •206. Are they all officered by Europeiui officers selected from the regiments P- Mekill, Esq. 
 of the East India Com])any? — Tliev are, with the exception of a small numht-r in 
 the Nizam's contingent appointed before the rule was established that officers ^'^ ^^' ' ^^" 
 shoiiU! be wholly officers drawn from the Company's army. 
 
 207. Mr. Hardiiiyc] In the Nizam contingent there is a brigade command r 
 — There are two or three brigade commands attached to it. 
 
 208. It is composed of infantry, cavalry, and artillery ? — Yes. 
 
 JovLs, 24° die Februarii, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 Mr. Baring. 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 Mr. 11. 11. CHve. 
 Sir Jiimes Hogg. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Mr. Labouchere. 
 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Sir George Grey. 
 
 Mr. Hume. 
 
 Sir T. H. Maddock. 
 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 
 Sir R. H. Inolis. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 Lieutenant-General Sir Willonghby Cotton, G. c. b., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 209. Chairman.'] WILL you have the goodness to state generally the nature Lieut.-Gen. 
 and duration of your service in India ? — I went to India with the rank of full Sir W. Cotton, 
 colonel in the year 1821, and on my arrival there was appointed to conunand o-c.&. 
 
 a station and troops at Poonah. On the 47th regiment, to which I belonged, February iS'jt 
 being ordered to Ava, I was desired by the Commander-in-Chief and the Go- 
 vernor-general of India to proceed to "Calcutta. When I got there I was ap- 
 pointed Brigadier-general with a commission on the staff, and ordered to go 
 immediately to Rangoon, and report myself to Sir Archibald Campbell. On 
 my arrival at Rangoon I was appointed by Sir Archibald Campbell to command 
 the ^Jadras troops that were employed at Ava, and I held that command until 
 the peace, and afterwards till the embarkation of the whole of the Madi-as force 
 on their return to that presidency. On my return to Calcutta, after the Ava 
 war, I was appointed to act as Quartermaster-general of the Queen's army, in 
 the room of Sir Stanford Whittingham, who was appointed a Major-general. 
 I held that appointment for one year. On the death of Colonel Macdonald, the 
 Adjutant-general of the Queen's army serving in India, I was transferred fi-om 
 the Quartermaster-general's department to that of Adjutant-general, and held 
 that appointment till I received the rank of Major-general and came home. 
 In the year 183/ I was again ordered to India as Major-general on the Bengal 
 staff. I was appointed to the command of the provinces in the lower country 
 of Bengal ; on the formation of the army of the Indus I was appointed to com- 
 mand the first division of that ar ly, and ordered to proceed to Ferozepore. 
 On my arrival at Ferozepore, Sir Henry Fane, who was to have taken charge of 
 the whole of the Bengal troops and to proceed with those of Bombay to Aff- 
 ghanistan, dechned the conmiand of the Bengal army, and I was desired to 
 take them to Shikarpoor, and then form a junction with Sir John Ki-ane, and 
 to serve under him through the operations that might take place. I did so, 
 and on Sir John Keane leaving the army I retained the command of that arm}- 
 till my health suffered, and 1 was relieved by General Elphinstone. I then pro- 
 ceeded to England, and remained in Europe until the year 1847, when I was 
 appointed Commauder-in-Chief of the Bombay Presidency, and I held that 
 appointment to the year 1850, when I returned to England. 
 
 210. You have had ample opportunity of judging of the Indian army, both 
 in peace and in war ? — I have seen the armies of the three Presidencies, and 
 served with them. 
 
 211. Having seen the Bengal army under every variety of circumstances, 
 0.10. B 4 "ill 
 
 I
 
 i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 'JAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 s IV 'col"'n ^^^^^ y^^ have the goodness to state to the Committee youi* unpression of its 
 G.c. B. efficiency ? — I should mention, that when 1 an■i^•('d at Rangoon I was appointed 
 
 _ to the jMa(h*as troojjs, which took me more immediately from those of 13engal, 
 
 24 February 1853. but (hu'ing the whole term of that serWce 1 never heard of anything in the 
 world that could he imi)uted to them as deficient eithei- in their disci))lin(^ or 
 their gallantry in the field. 1 served with them in Attghanistan, and no troops 
 could serve better ; and 1 had never the slightest fault to find w ith them, except 
 in one unfortunat(> instance of a regiment of cavalry which did not do their 
 duty. 
 
 212. You found generally their discii)line 10 be such as you would approve, 
 both in quarters and in the field ? — Perfectly. 
 
 213. Were their equipments of arms, accoutrements, and clothing sufficient? 
 — Perfectly. I may sa}^ with regard to the armies of the three Presidencies, 
 that when they are su])plied with the new rifles, which the Honourable Com- 
 pany are now going to send out to them, I do not suppose it is possible for 
 any army to be better equijjped than they will be. 
 
 214. Is it your opinion that the officers generally are able to converse witll 
 the sepoys in their own language ! — Perfectly ; because no officer can have 
 charge of a comi)any till he has passed an examination in their colloquial lan- 
 guage ; and no officer can hold a staflF situation until he has ])assed both in the 
 JMahratta and IJindostanee languages. 
 
 21,5. Has there been any deterioration in the qualities of the troops as 
 soldiers : — None whatever, that I have seen. 
 
 2 1 6. That aj)plies to the Bengal army ? — Yes ; I have never seen any dete- 
 rioration in that. 
 
 217. With regard to the Bombay army, what is your opinion of its efficiency r 
 — 1 do not think it is possible for any army to be in a more efficient state than 
 the Bombay army is in. I received it in most excellent order from iny prede- 
 cessor, and I trust I left it in good order. One very iniportant thing is, that 
 there is no ])rejudice of caste in the Bombay army. If you required to-morrow 
 morning any number of them that you could lay your liands upon, you would 
 have no more difficulty in embarking them than you would ha'.e in embarking 
 a corps of British troops in the Thames. 
 
 21 y. Is there any difference between the system of promotion amongst the 
 native regiments in the Bombay army, com]5ared with that of Bengal ? — in 
 Bengal, it is b\' seniority ; in Bombay, it is by selection usually. 
 
 219. Would you give preference to that system, or the other r — Certainly 
 to selection. 
 
 220. Does it appear to you that the Bomba}' sysstem could be introduced with 
 expediency into Bengal r — I do not feel prepared to answer that question. I 
 think selection so much preferable to seniority, that I should be inclined, if 
 I were Commander-in-Chief at Bengal, to try, if possible, to introduce it into 
 Bengal. 
 
 221. The system of invaliding or ])ensioniug is very important for the com- 
 fort and satisfaction of the native army ; are you of oi)inion that it is efficientl}' 
 carried into operation ? — The system of pensioning prevails throughout India, 
 and tliough the rates are moderate, they are as liberal as the finances will ad- 
 mit of, as the aggregate of the whole is so very gn^at. The Committee are 
 aware that there are no native invalid l)attalions in Bengal. We have them 
 in Bombay ; but I found very gn-at dislike on the ])art of the natives to 
 be invalided. They all ])ress for discharge ; because, supposing a corporal, 
 what they call anaick, is invalided to-morrow, he has no promotion ; he remains 
 a naick for ever. Therefore thev do not like it ; they ])refer direct discharge. 
 U lien 1 visited the stations w here they are quartered, they came to me in 
 bodies, several of them, to beg that they might be discharged. 
 
 222. Is the invalided corps of any efficient use r — Thev put them on the 
 coast in the old forts as a guard over the provisions and stores that are laid up ; 
 that is the use they make of them, because they cannot move ; tliey are com- 
 pletely inefficient for any actual service. 
 
 22.-3. Is file discharging of old soldiers more expensive to the Company than 
 the i)utting them in an invalid corps? — The jjcnsion is according to the number 
 t)f years that a soldier has served. At first it will a])pear ex))ensive, but on 
 the other liand the invalid battalions of Bond)ay arc very well taken care of, and 
 the duration of their life is very great ; therefore I conceive that th2 best plan 
 
 is 
 
 [
 
 SELECT COMMl'lTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 17 
 
 is to discharge them at once, to get rid of them, because tliey arc of no use I.iLiit.-(;fn. 
 
 to you. "^ir ly. Cotton, 
 
 224. With regard to the commissariat department, did you find that efficient '--cb. 
 in the field r — I think tiie Bengal commissariat much more efficient than the ,7"! 
 Bombay. _ 24 l-Cruar^ ,^,, 
 
 225. In what respects? — In the field; I think it is impossible for anythmg 
 to be more crticient than the Bengal commissariat was witli the verv large force 
 I had under my conunand, and the very extensive niarcli that 1 made with 
 them, with that force, 1,300 or 1,400 miles across the Indus, with every 
 opi)ortiinity of trying them; notliing could be more efficient than tln'V were 
 Tlie failure which took phice when we got into Beloochistan and Cutch, and the 
 Bolain Gundava Pass, was not the fault of the Bengal commissariat ; it arose 
 from tlic promises which had Ijcen made to Sir Alexander Bunies not lieing kejjt 
 by the Kliaun of Khelat, and various petty chiefs, who had promised to lay in 
 provisions at different points, to be taken up as the columns moved on. 
 
 22(). Had you any cause to be dissatisfied with the Bombav ccmnnissariat ? 
 — I do not think the Bombay commissariat in the field is hy any means so 
 efficient as the Bengal, from what 1 saw of it ; but then Sir John Keane was 
 placed under very awkward circumstances. The Ameers at Ihderabad did not 
 give the j)rovisions they had jjromised him, or the carriage and camels, and 
 other things that they had promised, so that he was obliged to draw upon me, 
 and lie crippled mt- most dreadfully ; he took half my carriage and ])rovisions. 
 But from my experience when I commanded at Bombay, 1 do not think the 
 commissariat system is so good as in Bengal. 
 
 227. What is the defect in the system? — I do not think the officers under- 
 stand it so well, and I do not think the departments are so well organised. 
 
 228. Are the native contractors less to be relied on r — No ; I never heard any 
 complaint against tlie native contractors loy the commissaries, but I do not 
 think it so well arranged ; I think the department in Bengal is much superior. 
 
 220. Does that inferiority of the department in Bombay arise from the num- 
 ber of European officers not being sufficient? — Not at all ; but I do not think 
 they understand tlieir duties so well as in Bengal. 
 
 230. In time of peace did it answer your purposes : — The Bengal commis- 
 sariat have a larger latitude given them of laying out money than the Bombay 
 have. The Military Board at Bombay is a very great clieck upon the commis- 
 sariat ; they complained of it. 
 
 231. You mean in granting money? — The Military Board look into the 
 accounts ; they do that in Bengal too, I think. 
 
 232. Mr. V. Smith.] Is the Bengal commissariat much more expensive than 
 that of Bombay : — Yes ; in laying in provisions they have great latitude. If 
 you move with a column your army must be fed, and you may be obliged to 
 lay out large sums. 
 
 233. Sir T. IJ. M(iddoc]\.~\ Is not the food of the Bengal sepoy cheaper than 
 that of the Bombay, and is not the carriage of tlie Bengal army hired at a 
 cheaper rate tlian that of Bombay r — About Ferozepore and in the territory of 
 the Rajah of Bahawai'poor, ottar and rice are much cheaper than they are at 
 Bombay. 
 
 234. But the Bengal sepoy does not live upon rice ? — He would be very 
 glad to have a rice ration. He likes rice as well as the other, but he likes 
 more stimulant with it. 
 
 23,> But his ordinary food is not rice? — He will eat it if he cannot get his 
 ordinary food. 
 
 23O. Chainnim.] With regard to the equipment and organization of the 
 artillerv in India ; do you consider that to be good '? — I think it is not jjossible 
 to be better. 
 
 237. You do not consider it inferior to the Royal Artillery ? — Not the least. 
 
 238. Did the officers of engineers in India appear to you to be iuUy equal to 
 the duties required of them ? — Fully, in every way. 
 
 23q. Are the barracks in India suitable to the accommodation of the troojjs 
 in tliat climate ? — There are new barracks in Bengal not yet finished ; in Bom- 
 bay it is impossible anything can be better, or more liberally constructed for 
 the comfort of the men. 
 
 240. Had you occasion to make any representations to the local government 
 with respect to defects in the barracks ? — Several times. 
 
 0.10. C 241. Did
 
 iS .MINUTES 01 LVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gtn. 241. Did }'ou find a readiness on the part of the Government to listen to 
 
 Sir W. Cottim, them ? — In every possible wa)'. 
 
 e-c.K. 242. Have vou had irre<>ular corps of infantry under your command? — 
 
 I had. 
 
 24 February 1853. ^^.^^ What number of European officers are attached to them r — I think 
 four, including the surgeon. 
 
 2J4 Does that number appear to you sufficient ? — Quite so. 
 245. Did you find those corps efficient for the purposes for which they are 
 intended? — Quite so , they deserve every possible commendation. 
 
 ^46. With regard to the number of officers that are generally retained for 
 each corjjs ; do you (consider that the present system of removing- officers from 
 their corps for staff employment in India has been a serious injury and disad- 
 vantage?--! think it is a point requiring most serious consideration; and I took 
 the liberty of mentioning the same in my evidence before the House of Lords. 
 I conceive that a field officer and two captains are indispensable with a native 
 corj)?, besides the subalterns ; and if those subalterns are taken away for dif- 
 ferent miscellaneous })urposes they always fix upon the best, and very naturally. 
 But I should strongly recommend that you either increase the number of 
 officers oi' higher grades, or that you organise at once a staft' corps. 
 
 247. The only objection to that woidd be the expense ? — Of course, if j^ou 
 organise a staff corps, it would be expensive. 
 
 248. \\'lieii officers have been em))loyed on services on the staff, and then 
 return to their regiment, are they found efficient ? — They are generally in- 
 efficient. I know instances of it. 
 
 249. Sir C. Wood.] They are not fit for regimental duty ? — Not until they 
 have brushed up again their regimental practice. 
 
 2,50. Chairman.'] Would that be of serious consequence in case they were 
 called into active service ? — Certainly, they could not manoeuvre their bat- 
 talions ; they w'ould find themselves at a loss in the command of their regiment. 
 
 251. Sir C. Wood.] In point of fact, they are called back to their regiments 
 precisely when the legiments are about to enter into active service ? — Exactly. 
 When a regiment is ordered for service, every officer on staff employment 
 is immediately ordered to join. 
 
 252. Chairman.] There is a sy^tem which prevails of making a subscription, 
 to enable an officer to retire upon his pension ; do you think that works well r 
 — I know exactly what you mean ; it is buying an officer out of the service ; and 
 I think myself it is desir.djle, for this reason, that by that means you get rid 
 very often of old, inefficient officers, and active young men fill their places. 
 
 2;)3. Does it only prevail with regard to the senior officers, or is it adopted 
 ■with junior officers as well ? — I think generally it is with the seniors. 
 
 2.i4. Is it not subject to abuse when juniors are bought out? — It may have 
 been applied to juniors in this way. A major of a regiment says he will retire 
 if he can get a certain sum ; in order to make tliat sum up I have heard of 
 officers l)eing called U})on, according to their grade, to give to the general i)urse. 
 
 2.5.',. That might be hablc to abuse r — It might apply in that way to juniors, 
 but otherwise usually it is applied only to the seniors ; they make it up ; 
 they say, '•' I will give you so much if you will retii'e." 
 
 2.'5i). With regarti to the |)resent system of furlough, should you recommend 
 any change in that, with reference to tiie Indian army ? — I iliink the greatest 
 boon that could possibly be conferred on the European officers of the Indian 
 army, and one which they would ai)preciate more than any other, would be 
 that the present system of furlough should be allowed to remain, limited to 
 time, and not to pla<(' ; and that some jjortion of the furlough, now only granted 
 at the end of 10 years' actual service in India, might be taken at an earlier 
 period. That is my opinion about furloughs. 
 
 257. Is that the same system which is adopted with regard to the Queen's 
 fr()o])s ? — No ; there is a different system with regard to the Queen's ti-oops ; 
 and I should strongly recomnujnd that the Company's officers might enjoy just 
 the same benefit. I can give the Committee a practical proof of the difference 
 in a moment. When I came from India, the Quartermaster-general of the 
 Bombay army, who had served above Hi) years, and had been in Affghanistan, 
 owing to his wife's health, was obliged to come to England ; he never had had 
 a furlough. He then asked for a furlough, and he came, and was obliged, of 
 
 course.
 
 SELECT COMMI'l'lEE ON LVDIAN TERRITORIES. 19 
 
 course, to vacate his appointment, and the}- appointed another officer. The LiVut-Cen. 
 Queen's Adjutant-general at the very same time came to Enijland, in conse- Sir II . Cottm, 
 quence of his wife's health, and returned to his appointment after his leave g.c.b. 
 
 expired ; that officer had two years' leave, and, at the end of two years, he was "~~ 
 allowed to come back and resume his appointment, whereas the Qu.artermiister- * '^"''^^ ' **'■ 
 
 general of the Honihay army was obliged to give up his appointment, and now, 
 \\hen his two years' leave are up, he has no chance whatever of resnmiiig the 
 appointment. Now, I say that they ought both to be put upon the sfime footing, 
 25 S. Do you tliink that the expeditious mode in which people can travel now 
 by steam ought to place England u])on the same footing on which the Cape of 
 Good Hope was formerly with respect to furlough r Exactly ; you can come 
 home from India now much (|uicker than you could get to the Cape in former 
 days by a sailing ship. 
 
 259. Looking to the extent of the territory and population of India, do vou 
 consider the Indian army now kept up to be upon too large a seal" ? — (Jer- 
 tainly not. 
 
 260. Do you tliiuk it ought to be increased .- — If you annex Ava I should 
 think you would have to increase it by some local corps ; but even at present 
 there is ample employment for the army as it is, and I would not decrease it a 
 man. I could luime one or two points where they might be employed now, at 
 once, and where a corps of 20,000 or 30,000 men might be called for. 
 
 26 1 . Are there any suggestions which your experience would induce you to 
 make to the Committee ? — No, I will not trouble the Committee with any, 
 
 262. Mr. CUve.] U'ith regard to furloughs, there is an idea that 10 years' 
 service previously to being allowed to return to England is too long a period ; 
 have you ever considered that question ? — That is exacth' one of the points 
 I have already mentioned ; 1 would give the furlough earlier than 10 3\?.irs. 
 
 263. Would seven years be a proper period in your opinion ?--I should think 
 seven years would be a much fjiirer period to grant furlough from. So im])or- 
 tant 1 thought the point of furlough, that I have written it down this morning 
 myself; and, if the Committee will permit me, I will read what I wrote: The 
 greatest boon that could be conferred upcm the European officers of the Indian 
 arm)-, and one for wiiich they would feel most grateful, in my opinion, is, that 
 the present system of furlough should be allowed to remain exactly as it is, 
 only limited to time, and not to place ; what 1 mean to say is, that instead of 
 making them wait 10 years i)efore you give them a furlough, you should allow 
 them to have it at the expiration of seven, and then, instead of limiting them to 
 the Cape, you should extend it to En'i.land ; in fact, if an Indian officer goes to 
 the Cape he can resume his a])pointment, but if he comes to England he gives 
 it up instantly. Now, in the Queen's service an officer who comes home on 
 furlough, on returning, goes back to the situation he held. 
 
 2().!. At present the officers, and civil servants as well, are allowed to remain 
 three years absent from India. If you allowed them to withdraw after seven 
 years, would it then be necessary that three years should be allowed for their 
 absence ; would not two 3'eai's, under those circumstances, be sufficient for an 
 officer who has leave of absence ? — I think possibly it might be so ; but it 
 depends so much u])on the circumstances under which he asks for leave of 
 absence. As a general principle, J should think two years would i)e enough, 
 because now they get home so much quicker, and return so much quicker. 
 
 265. So that two years' absence would be sufficient r— Possibly it niiglit. 
 
 266. Sir C. ^yood.'\ Would an officer in the Queen's service now be allowed 
 to be absent from India three years, and then to resume his place r — Two years 
 are given him, and then he resumes his appointment. The Horse Guards 
 allow it. 
 
 267. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] Do you consider the troopers and regular cavalry, 
 either in the field or in cantonments, superior to those of the irregular corps, 
 or the reverse r — I think the irregular corps are fully as well mounted as the 
 regular. I i)ave seen them much better. For instance, Jacob's corps, I think, 
 are mounted, not only as well, but better than most of the regular corjjs. 
 
 268. Do jou consider them equally efficient in the discharge of their duties ? 
 — In every duty. 
 
 269. Do you know the comparative expense of maintaining a thousand 
 regular cavalry and a thousan 1 irregular cavalry? — I can answer that by 
 stating what you enlist an irregular man and his horse for in Bengal, and what 
 in Bombay. In Bengal it is 25 rupees, and in Scinde ; in the Punjaub, where 
 
 o.ao. c 2 the
 
 Qo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Licut.-Cicn. the last corps were raised, 25 rupees a month was allowed for a man and his 
 Sir 11''. Cuiton. h()rse. In l^omhav it was about 3") rupees for a man and horse per month. 
 ^" ^' °' 270. Mr. JIardinm'.] What causes that difference of expense between Bengal 
 
 "4. February 18--? '"'^^ Bombay- — The facility of getting a horse is much greater in the Punjaub 
 than in Bombay. 
 
 271. Has there ever been any complaint in the Boml)ay army with regard to 
 the swords used by the regular troopers ? — Very great complaint. The sword 
 which a native of India prefers beyond any other is the scimitar, not the 
 straight sword. 
 
 272. Have there not been complaints also with respect to the saddles c — Yes, 
 they do not like the saddles. 
 
 27,5. Has anv representation on that head been sent home? — I do not know; 
 I have heard it repeatedly during the time I have served in India, both the first 
 time, and afterwards, when I was Commander-in-Chief at Bombay ; but I made 
 no representation of it at home, nor did I mention it, except in my evidence 
 before the H()use of Lords. 
 
 274. Sir T. H. Maddork.l Have you ever known troopers going into action 
 ask ]iermission of their officers to take their native swords, in preference to the 
 regulation sword r — I have heard so. 
 
 275. Is it a frequent occurrence: — I have heard so, and that it was done no 
 later than in the last campaigns of Lord Goiigh ; but I cannot speak to the 
 fact from my own knowledge. 
 
 276. \\ ith reference to a former question, if you were aware that the expense 
 of maintaining 1,000 regular native cavalry in India was more than three 
 times the expense of maintaining 1^000 irregular cavalry, should you consider 
 it desirable to maintain the large force of regular cavalry which is now kept 
 up ? — In answer to that, jiermit me to say that every regular army in the field 
 must have irregular cavalry with it. The duties of the irregular cavalry are 
 totally different from those of the regular cavalry ; the duties of the irregular 
 cavalry are to move upon tlie flanks of an army, and to keep off the hovering 
 tribes, either inftxntry or horsemen, when marching through a hostile country ; 
 they are also much used as an escort for the commissariat and for the camels. 
 In fact their duties are totally different from those of the regular cavalry. 
 
 277. I understood your former answer to express an opinion that the irregular 
 cavalry Avas. both in the field and in cantonments, cciually efficient with the 
 regular cavalry'^ — I thought you meant particularly in the field, because you 
 have not the irregular cavalry usually in cantonments ; they are always dis- 
 persed in peace time in the districts. But, in order that my answer may be 
 clear, I should state m}' own opinion, that I think the irregular cavalry a most 
 valuable and important arm. 
 
 27S. Are you aware how much the native regular cavalry of Madras have 
 been employed in the field, during the last 30 years r— Not at all. I can give 
 you no answer with reference to the Madras troops, never having served in that 
 presidency ; nor can I state anything with regard to the ]Madi*as troops, except 
 from what I saw of them when I had the honour of commanding the Madras 
 army in Ava. 
 
 27(). Sir A'. //. Iitglix.'] In reference to a former answer (225), in which you 
 allude to certain native chiefs, and from ytmr geneial acquaintance with the 
 princ s and peo})le of India, can yon state to the Comvuittee how far you have 
 found the army supported in its operations by the general concurrence of the 
 people through whose territory it may have had occasion to ])ass ; for example, 
 in the last campaign in Affghanistan ? — In moving from Ferozepore with the 
 Bengal army we i)assed by the right bank of the Sutlej, through the territory of 
 the Rajah of Bahawarpoor, mitil we readied the lun-t of Buckor, on the Indus. 
 I fovmd the most cordial co-operation on the ])art of the Rajah of Bahawarpoor 
 that it was possible to give, by having formed depots at the points indicated to 
 him by the Government previously, with supplies of wood, &c., &c., for the 
 man.'li of the trooj)s through that country. 
 
 2 So. Can you state anything to the Committee witli further reference to the 
 Rajah of Klielat :— Yes, I can ; the conduct of tlic Rajah of Khelat was totally 
 diHercnt from tliis. Sir Alexander lUu'ues had pi'-omi>es from him of jjrovisions 
 at the date of his entrance to the Bolain Pass, not one of which were per- 
 formed ; for I went through the Bolain Pass with a different division, and we 
 did n(;t find at any one spot the provisions that he had promised Sir Alexander 
 Burncs to lay in. 
 
 281. Had
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 2j 
 
 281. Had you any reason to think that tliose promises were made in refer- Lkut.-Gen. 
 ence to any stipidations in his favour? — I cannot answer that question. Sir l(^. Cotton, 
 
 282. The answer you have just given has had reference to two princes ; can fi.c.B. 
 you state anything with reference to the other princes, the Ameers of Seinde? *J7~ ~ 
 --The points that I know with regard to the Ameers of Seinde are tliese : the ^'^ ^el.ruary 1853. 
 Kheerpoor territory is the one next the Bahawarpoor Rajali, and the Kheerpoor 
 
 Rajah reviewed our troops that came down, and was apparently exceedingly 
 friendly. When I got down to Buekor, the conununication hetween Sir John 
 Keane and myself was stopped, and I got information from various quarters 
 that the Ameers at Hyderabad had not allowed him to pass the fortress of 
 Hyderabad ; and as I had to throw a bridge over the Indus at Buekor, I tliought 
 the best mode in which I could employ the divisions that had arrived was to 
 relieve Sir John Keane's position. I moved the cavalry, and then the infantry, 
 directly on the left bank of the Indus upon Hyderabad, and I got four marches 
 towards Hyderabad, and then the move showed its effect. The Ameers per- 
 mitted Sir John Keane to pass Hyderabad, paying at the same time a subsidy 
 that was demanded of them for Shah Soojah. The moment he was relieved, 
 Sir John Keane ordered me to counteimarch the columns, and to cross the 
 river and wait for him at Shikarpoor. I conceived the importance, in a military 
 sense, that it was absolutely requisite that we should occupy Hyderabad and 
 not leave princes there, with eight or ten millions of money, evidently hostile 
 on the line of our communication ; but I was again ordered to pass the river 
 and ])roceed to Shikarpoor. On my arrival at Shikarpoor, having intelligence 
 that the enemy were going to occupy the Bolain Pass, I thought it highly 
 desirable to anticipate their doing so, and accordingly I moved a division of 
 cavalry and two divisions of infantry with the artillery through the pass, and 
 waited at Kettur for Sir John Keane, having received particular directions 
 from him and Sir William M'Naughton, the political agent, not to cross the 
 frontier into Affghanistan till thev arrived. 
 
 283. Lord Stanlei/.] You have stated that the European officers are called 
 upon to pass an examination in the eoUoquial language of the country, with a 
 view to their being able to converse fluently with the troops under their com- 
 mand ; is it your opinion that that examination is a I'eally severe one, or does 
 it, in some cases, become little more than a matter of form ? — I believe it to 
 be a strictly honourable examination, from what I have always understood. 
 
 284. Do you think that in consequence of that all the European officers, or 
 the majority of the European officers, are really able to converse fluently and 
 familiarly with the native troops, and with the natives in general? — Not the 
 European officers, certainly ; what I meant to state was, that no officer can 
 have charge of a company until he has passed an examination in the colloquial 
 language, nor can he fill a regimental staff appointment without having passed 
 an exammation in two languages, which are Hindostanee and Mahratta. 
 
 285. Is it the fact that after he has once passed that examination he lias not, 
 in any subsequent stage of his career, any further examinations to go through, 
 and that it is therefore possible that he may have forgotten the native lan- 
 guage ? — No ; the examination in a colloquial language will not do for holding 
 a staff situation ; it will only do for holding a company. 
 
 286. You spoke of the Bombay army as being free from all prejudices of 
 caste ; do you not think that those })rejudices of caste are greatly diminishing 
 in the Bengal and Madras armies ? — -1 cannot answer for the Madras army, 
 not having served with it, except when I was in Ava. There I saw no pre- 
 judices of caste whatever ; they were suffering very great privations, which 
 they bore in the most soldier-like and admirable manner. In the Bengal 
 army they have men of much higher caste tlian they have in Bombay ; for 
 instance, they have high caste Brahmins. Now, we had not those in the Bombay 
 army, and it may be prejudice on my part; but I had a very strong feeling that 
 I never would enlist what they call a high caste Brahmin, his influence over 
 the other men is so very great. I do not think they are desirable men in the 
 ranks. 
 
 287. Do you think that that influence is sometimes dangerous to discipline ? 
 — I think the influence of a very high caste Brahmin is much too great over 
 his comrades, but that is merely a matter of opinion. 
 
 288. You do not thinlx, as a general rule, that there is any difference in 
 point of good conduct as soldiers, between the high caste men and the low 
 caste ? — No ; I like the Bombay army better than the other for. general pur- 
 
 o. 10. c 3 poses.
 
 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut. -Gen poses, because tlieir caste never interfered with regard to anything they had 
 
 Sir W. Cotton, to do. Now, in Bengal, they do not like going on boaril a shif) ; they will not 
 
 G c.B. drink any water which they have not themselves put on board ship, and 
 
 24 February 18-3. "hich has been blessed by their priests; and there are a hundred other minor 
 
 obstructions and difficulties which I ha^e heard of in taking the troops from 
 
 Bengal to Ava. 
 
 •jSg. You spoke of the Bombay Commissariat as being less efficient than 
 the Bengal, in your opinion. Can you offer to the Committee any suggestions 
 witli respect to any improvements in the system by which it might be placed 
 on a footing of greater efficiency? — I do not think myself that the Bombay 
 Commissariat works so well as the Bengal, but I have no specific charge to 
 make against it ; 1 think the department might be improved, that is all. In 
 Bengal, as I mentioned, they have greater license. 
 
 •2no. In the Company's native army, is not the number of native officers, 
 commissioned and non-commis^•ioned, in proportion to the number of men, 
 greater than it is in any other service with which you are acquainted ?— No, 
 I do not think it is. 
 
 2g I . Including natives as well as European officers, is it not so r — I think not. 
 There are the jemadar and soubahdar, the native officers ; we have no such 
 thing in our army. There is the corporal, who is called the naick, the havildar, 
 the native serjeaiit-major, and the native soubahdar and jemadar, who are the 
 two officers to each company. Therefore, in that wa}' they have more than we 
 have, because we have a serjeant and a regular number of officers with a com- 
 pany ; three besides the captain. 
 
 292. You spoke of the service performed by the regular and by the irregular 
 cavalry as being different in character ; is it your opinion that it would not be 
 expedient or possible to diminish the number of the regular cavalry, and to 
 increase the number of the irregular corps?— T have mentioned before, that 
 every regular army must have regular cavalry accompan^nng it ; but the irre- 
 gular cavalry is of that service, in my opinion, that 1 would rather have a 
 sm>dler proportion of the regular, if you would increase the irregular branch. 
 
 2c)3. With regard to the barracks provided for European troops, is it, or is 
 it not your opinion, that all European troops ought, in all parts of India, if 
 possible, to be quartered in hill stations, and not in the plains r — \'ou cannot 
 do ih.at. For instance, there are no hill stations in Scinde ; in Bengal, the 
 Upper Provinces give you hill stations, l)ut we have no hill stations in Bombay. 
 
 294. Have we not the Mahakishawur hills ? —Yes. There are no barracks at 
 the Mahakishawur ; there is only a company there to take care of the local trea- 
 sure, arid one barrack for 100 men. 
 
 29,5. Do not you think that wherever it is possible to obtain a site for bar- 
 racks at a hill station, it would be advisable to incur the increased expenditure 
 of building such barracks, i-ather than continue to quarter l'.uroi)ean troops in 
 the low country ? — Hill stations are usually most healthy; but I commanded 
 three years in Jamaica, in the West Indies, and I can state that in the barracks 
 in the hill stations there we lost more men than we did at Kingston, or at Port 
 Royal ; l)ut usually I should prefer hill stations. Wlu-n my regiment was at 
 Pesliawur they had two or three hundred sick ; they were moved from Peshnwur 
 to a station that Sir Charles Napier fixed upon, called Dagshain ; that is a hill 
 station, and the sick diminished directly ; now I have not eight per cent, 
 sick ; therefore that is a confirmation of the argument in favour of hill stations. 
 
 296. Sir C. /food.} Did you find any inconvenience from the high caste 
 soldiers in your AfFghanistan expedition >. — Not when there was anything to 
 do ; but tli( ir influeiu^e with the men was very great. That I knew, and from 
 that I formed the wish not to recruit them. 
 
 297. Mr. LaboHchrre.] Were there many natives of high caste in the army? 
 — Yes, in Bengal, of very high caste. 
 
 295. What kind of proportion of the whole? — 1 cannot answer that without 
 calling for a return of the Brahmins in each corps, but there were a great many 
 Brahmins. 
 
 299. Mr. IIardinge.~\ .Are the allowances of the Bombay army precisely the 
 same as those of the Bengal army ? — Exactly ; Lord Hardinge equalised them. 
 
 3' 10. IIow are tlie rrgiments recruited- — We recruit a great deal from the 
 upper provinces of India, and a great deal from the Conchon ; in fact we take 
 any fine young men of all kinds. 
 
 301. What proportion of high caste men are there to the low caste ? — There 
 
 are
 
 SELECJ COM.MITTEI:: ON INDIAN TEliRlTORIES. 23 
 
 are but few high caste men; out of SOO men, proliabl}' you would not find 50 Lieut. -r.tn. 
 verv high caste men; we do not take them ; we do not like them. °" "^- *'""""> 
 
 «.C. B. 
 
 302. With regard to the baggage of the Bombay army, is it not the fact that 
 the Bombay army can march with about half the baggage that the Bengal army 24 February 1853. 
 requires to take r — It is, certainly. 
 
 303. Is not that in a great measure to be attributed to tlu; nuniber of ser- 
 vants that the officers take with them? — I always try, in every way in the world, 
 to restrict officers increasing their baggage, for the very obvious reason of the 
 line of march being increased, and also the number of followers. But the real 
 reason is this that in Bengal you get ten servants for the same cost for which 
 in Bt)mbay you would get tln-ee, the wages are so much smaller in Bengal than 
 they are in Bombay. You pay very high wages in Bombay. 
 
 304. Besides, fi om the i)rejudices of the natives in Bengal, is it not the fact, 
 that one man in Bombay will do what you require three men to do in Bengal ? 
 — Exactly, that at least. 
 
 305. Does the college pass examination qualifj' an officer in Bondoay for a 
 staff api)ointment ? — I do not know that term ; the examinations are before a 
 committee; any officers that com e forward are brought before the committee, 
 and are examined in Mahratta, or Hindostanee, or Oordoo, or Persian, which- 
 ever the individuals selects, and the committee are obliged to sign, if he passes, 
 his papers. 
 
 306. That is for all staff appointments ? — The Mahratta and Hindostanee 
 will do for the staff appointments. 
 
 307. What is required for the political appointments - — Mahratta and Hin- 
 dostanee ; 1 never understood that there was an}'thing more wanted, except in 
 the Persian Gulf, where of course you must have Persian. 
 
 308. You have suggested a plan to remedy the difficulty of the number of 
 officers absent from different regiments on staff and civil employment ; you 
 mentioned a staff corps ; do )"ou mean a skeleton corps ? — No, I mean a staflf 
 corps ; that is, consisting of officers who should be examined in the various 
 quahfications required to constitute a staff officer, such as surveying, s.nd 
 languages, and drawing, so as to be able to sketch a march. 
 
 309. How would those staff officers be promoted ? — Let them be taken from 
 the army, and let their promotion go on as it would do if they had been in 
 some regiment. For instance, the lieutenant would succeed the captain, as he 
 would have done if he remained serving with the corps, only let the place with 
 the regiment be filled up with effective men ; there is no difficulty about it. 
 
 310. You have mentioned that the system of promotions in Bombay, with 
 regard to non-commissioned officers and native officers, is conducted by selec- 
 tion ? — Yes. not by senioi'ity. 
 
 311. Is it entirely done by the commanding officer, or do the head-quarters 
 ever interfere? — Usually by the commanding officer, unless there is a petition 
 to the Connnander-in-Chief, which would be translated by the Persian intei*- 
 preter and instantly looked into, and tiie Adjutant-general would be sent for, 
 and the thing would be inquired into 
 
 312. Do you see an objection to the Queen's officers, in time of peace, being 
 selected to hold brigade majorships or appointments in the Quartern) aster- 
 general's department ? — With regard to that, I think that it is much better to 
 let the British officers of the Bombay army derive the benefit of their various 
 staff employments Their duties are arduous to the greatest degree. They 
 are not like British officers, who come there for tiiree or four years, or five or 
 six years, and go away again ; it is a service for life with them, and I think they 
 ought to derive the benefit of it. 
 
 313. Have the facilities which have been of late years aflfoi'ded to young 
 officers for borrowing money from the numerous banks which have been esta- 
 bUshed operated prejudicially or otherwise upon the Bombay army ? — I never 
 heard that they have operated prejudicially. The Agra banks, and the other 
 banks, have been the means of enabling the young officers to get money, in 
 order to get their promotions and various things, but I never heard that it has 
 operated prejudicially. 
 
 314. If a young officer, on joining the regiment, or in landing in India, gets 
 into debt, has he not very great facilities afforded to him by_ those banks of 
 procuring money?—! think the banks operate rather beneficially than other- 
 wise. Young men who come to India, if they were inclined, could get naoney 
 
 0.10. C 4 without
 
 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut -Gen. without those banks. If those banks did not advance money they would go to 
 Sir fV. Cotton, the shroffs, the native bankers, and get it at 100 per cent, or 50 cent, interest, 
 G.c.B. whereas those banks give it tliem at a much lower rate ; and all that they have 
 
 24 February i8j3. got to do is to insure their lives. I believe that is the usual thing. 
 
 315. Have any deserving native officers been appointed honorary aides-de- 
 camp to the Governor ?— None that I know of. 
 
 3ii). You are aware that in Bengal there are honorary aides-de-camp to the 
 Governor-general r — Perfectly. 
 
 317. Do you think it would operate beneficially ?— If a man distinguished 
 himself particularly, I think it would be a good thing to make him an e.xtra 
 aide-de-camp. 
 
 318. Sir J. Hog//.'] Do you believe that previously to the Affghan war the 
 Bonibav troops were ever much employed beyond their own territory ? —They 
 were employed in the Persian Gulf, under Sir Lionel Smith, in severe service. 
 
 3 1 (). Except in that severe service, when everything in the commissariat 
 went I1V sea, was it not the fact that they were scarcely ever employed out of 
 their own territory previously to the Affghan war ? — I think there was a corps 
 of them employed at the siege of Seringapatam, commanded by General 
 Stewart. 
 
 320. I am aware that there are two or three exceptions ; but generally, was 
 it not the case that their employment was within their own territory, and that 
 consequentlv their commissariat was not organised as the commissariat in Bengal 
 was i*— The service of the Bombay troops at the Gulf was ver}' severe service, 
 under Sir Lionel Smith ; and there was a corps, I think, at Seringapatam under 
 General Stewart ; likewise in Egypt and Mauritius. 
 
 321. But they have not been in the habit of taking the field beyond their own 
 temtory as the Bengal troops have, and that would necessarily cause the Bengal 
 system of commissariat to be a better organised system than that of Bombay? — 
 Yes, it might be so. 
 
 322. Mr. F. SmitJi.^ You mentioned that they rejected the high caste men 
 in Bombay ? — I meant that they would rather not take them. 
 
 •^2-^. Does not that give offence to that class of men ? — No ; you have a right 
 to take what class of men you like when you are recruiting for the army ; if 
 )'ou consider that any man would be inferior to others, you have a right not to 
 take him. 
 
 324. Sir li. II. Inglis.] With reference to a former answer which you gave 
 respecting the feeling of the princes and people of India towards the English 
 Government, will you state to what period you alluded when aou considered 
 the feeling and conduct of the Ameers to be hostile ; was it before or after 
 their acceptance of the treaty ? — When Sir John Keane landed with the Bom- 
 bay army, which was to move into Affghanistan, antl moved up to Hydera- 
 l)ad, the Ameers would not allow him to pass ; consequently their feeling must 
 have been hostile. We were very nearly obliged to attack Hyderabad ; in fact, 
 1 think we ought to have done so ; but that is another question ; and they would 
 not at first pay the money that (Jolonel Pottinger, who accompanied him, 
 .asked for. 
 
 325. But after the accejitance of the treaty, did they or did they not mani- 
 fest any feeling of opposition r — After they let him go by, and after the accep- 
 tance of the treaty, I never heard of any hostile demonstration. 
 
 32(3. Mr. Ilinne.'] You said that you preferred low caste men because you 
 found them less troublesome at Bombay ; are you aware that in Bengal the 
 rule has been, and still is, to prefer high caste men on all occasions for native 
 infantry r — I did not mean to say that I prefer low caste men ; I i)refer not 
 taking hiirh caste Brahmins ; but there are various int(>rmediate castes, as every- 
 Ijody in India knows, besides the Pariah, which is the lowest caste, and the 
 Brahmin ; there is the Purdasey caste, which is the caste of men in Bombay 
 that the sepoys belong to. 
 
 327. Do you recollect what tlie sepoys generally were in Bengal, and whether 
 the officers did not wish to have, it possible, the highest class Brahmins r — I 
 think not; on the contrary; I can give you an instance: a very distinguished 
 officer of the IJengal army lias often told me that if he had the power of deter- 
 mining it, he would not have a Brahmin in his regiment. 
 
 32b. My (juestion is intended to apply to the native infantry of Bengal gene- 
 rally
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 25 
 
 rall3% whether they are not of a higher caste than the native infantry of Bom- Licut.-Gen. 
 bay ? — Certainly. Sir //'. Coitot, 
 
 329. When* the officers are in general intercourse with the officers of the o.c. b. 
 native corps, have you found them to approve of that class of men as making ~ ~ 
 the best soldiers?— I should say that in IJcngal, ])r()l)ably, it might be so; but "^ ^ebrunry 1853. 
 with respect to the liombay army, I Ix'lievc that taking the officers of the 
 
 Bombay arm}' generally, you would find that they would rather take men not 
 of the Brahmin caste ; that is the caste 1 ol)jcct to. 
 
 330. '^'ou were asked about the number of officers. During the time you 
 have been on service, have you found the; number of European officers with 
 the native battalions amply sufficient for the duties of the corps? — On the con- 
 trary, I have found that man}- officers have been taken away from the regiments, 
 and I have been obliged to apply for them in consequence of my conceiving 
 that the regiment had not sufficient European officers with it. 
 
 331. Has not there been a regulation lately laid down that a certain number 
 of European officers must remain with each corps ? — There are six captains to 
 every infantry regiment. Two ought to be always with the corps ; two may be 
 absent from sickness or any other cause, and two others are liable to be called 
 upon bv the Government for miscellaneous duties, but I have found that owing 
 to sickness and owing to different causes, instead of having two of those captains, 
 there has often only been one, and the field officers have also been away ill, so 
 that a regiment of a thousand strong was under the command of one captain. 
 
 332. With regard to the subaltern officers, have you found a deficiency on 
 many occasions of that class r — I never would allow it, because whenever the 
 usual number that were allowed by the Honourable Company's regulations were 
 absent, if the Government called upon me for any othei", whatever regiment it 
 was, I always objected to give] any, and said it was utterly out of my power to 
 do so ; that I would not be answerable for the discipline of the regiment, if he 
 thought proper to take any. 
 
 333- What is the number of subalterns who, by the regulations, must be 
 present with the corps ? — I think it is two-thirds. 
 
 [y^4. Comparing the native with the Queen's troops, the number of officers 
 in the Queen's is double, is it not? — Yes; because the Queen's officers are not 
 eligible for those other services. 
 
 335. Is it }'our opinion that the efficiency of the native corps is much im- 
 proved by having an adequate proportion of European officers r — Certainly. 
 
 336. You spoke of the efficiency of the irregular cavalry ; how many Euro- 
 pean officers do you now attach to an irregular corps ? — Five ; a commandant, 
 a second in command, the adjutant, and one besides, and the doctor. 
 
 337. Do you consider that number, with reference to the efficiency of the 
 irregular corps, adequate to make them efficient ? — Yes, with the aid of the 
 havikiars and the other native officers. 
 
 338. Have they soubahdars to each troop ? — Yes ; they have native officers, 
 but called russaldars and jemedars. 
 
 339. The same establisliment as in the regular cavalry ? — Yes. 
 
 340. But the number of European officers is less ?■ — Yes. 
 
 341 . Is it not that great difference in the number of officers which principally 
 causes the difference of expense between the two r — Of course ; if you increase 
 the number of officei's, you increase the expense. 
 
 342. Can }'ou state whether the same rule exists in Bombay, which exists 
 in Bengal, for paying for the loss of horses killed in action in the irregular 
 corps ? — I cannot answer tliat question, but I believe that that has been altered 
 lately ; at the original formation of it, the}- could buy so man}' nominations, 
 and then the man had the power of leaving them to others ; and when the man 
 died, his mother or his widow had the power of furnishing a man and horse. 
 
 343. Y'ou stated that they were engaged at 25 rupees a month, that is, in- 
 cluding man and horse, the man furnishing his horse : — Yes. 
 
 344. Are }'ou not aware that at one time great difficulty existed in getting 
 the men to be willing to risk their horses in the service in which they were 
 employed ? — Perfectly. 
 
 345. What remedy has been applied to that ; supposing a trooper in an 
 irregular corps to lose his horse in a charge, is he ])aid for it r — The Govern- 
 ment would always give him a remuneration, not pi'obably the whole cost of the 
 horse ; and the men subscribe to a fund from which they receive compensation. 
 
 0.10. D 346. Are
 
 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gcu. 346. Are you not acquainted with the rules in that respect? — No; I know 
 
 Sir W. Cotton, of many men who have had their horses killed in action that have received 
 
 o.c.K. compensation. I can stale what the rule is with respect to English officers; 
 
 I if a horse is killed which the officer has ^iven 100 i^uineas for, he receives 
 
 H February 1853. 40 Z. or 45 /. 
 
 347. But you are aware that an officer joining a corps is allowed to pick the 
 best horse he can find at the Regulation pi'icer— Yes, that is in regiments of 
 cavalry. 
 
 348. If an officer is allowed to pick the best horse at the Regulation price, 
 is not it fair that the Company should only be required to pay the Regulation 
 price in case of the liorse being lost ? — I cannot exactly tell you what the rule is. 
 
 349. Sir 2\ II. Maddock.'\ Is the Bombay army in any measure recruited 
 from Hindostan ? — Yes, in a very great measure. 
 
 350. In former years a very great number of recruits were raised from 
 Hindost;m ; of what caste are those recruits that are now brought from Hin- 
 dostan for the Bombay army ? — Usually the Purdasey caste. 
 
 35 i. By the "Purdasey" caste you mean not Rajpoots? — I mean not Brah- 
 mins ; I only know them by the names by which we call them there. 
 
 352. Mr. Iiardiii(/e.] Can you suggest any improvement in the dress of the 
 army in Bombay ? — No ; I do not think they can be better dressed. 
 
 353. How are the hor?e artillery dressed ? — Exactly similar to the English. 
 Nothing can be finer than the artillery. 
 
 354. You are aware that in Bengal the horse artillery are dressed in jet 
 boots and helmets? — Yes. 
 
 355. But in Bombay they are dressed as our horse artillery are ? — Exnctly, 
 except the shako. 
 
 Lieut.-General Sir Thomas M'Mahon, Bart., k. c. b., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 Lieut.-Gcn. Sir 356. WILL you have the goodness to inform the Committee of the oppor- 
 
 TAomas M'Makon, tunities you have had of becoming acquainted with the Army of India r — In 
 ^ art., K. c.B . ^j^g j,^^j. jgjg J ^gg appointed Adjutant-general of the Royal forces, and served 
 under the Marquis of Hastings, who held the double situation of Governor- 
 general and Commander-in-Chief. 
 
 357. How long were you in India? —I was altogether, at that time, upwards 
 of 12 yeai'S in India, on the Bengal estabhshment. 
 
 3.58. And subsequently r— And subsequently on the Bombay establishment, 
 as Commander-in-Chief, for seven years. 
 
 3.59. ^Vill you state whether you were satisfied with the discipline and 
 efficienc)^ of those portions of the army with which you served ? — As to the 
 state of the native army, I cannot go into that so particularly, with respect to 
 the time while 1 was adjutant-general, as I can with reference to the period 
 when I was Commander-in-Chief ; because my functions were limited to the 
 Royal forces as Adjutant-general. But at all inspections and reviews made 
 by the Commander-in-Chief I was present, and when he took the field in 1818 ; 
 I therefore had an opportunity of seeing them and being mixed up with their 
 details, and I thought very higldy of the Bengal army. 
 
 360. What was your oj)inion of the Bombay army ? — My opinion of the 
 Bombay army is, that it is jjerhaps one of the most efficient armies I know of. 
 
 361. Were there any defects in the internal organisation or arrangement of 
 the army r — Yes ; but those defects in the progress of time have been greatly 
 removed ; and therefore I would say that the artillery, cavalry, and infantry, 
 composing the iJombay army, are a most efficient force. 
 
 362. \\ ere coui'ts martial of frequent occurrence in the Bombay army when 
 you were in command ? — At times they were ; but not generally so. 
 
 363. Had you occasion to observe whether liarmony subsisted between the 
 officers of the Royal and the Company's armies when serving together ? — Yes, 
 1 think harmony did su'osist, and there was alwavs, as far as I observed, a 
 very friendly and cordial intercourse; between them in private society. 
 
 3O4. Did you find the Government ready to atteiul to your suggestions for 
 correcling any defects in the arrangements for the accommodation and equip- 
 ment of the troo])s?— I found tbe (iovirnment willing on all occasions to 
 attend to my representations, as far as they could ; but on (certain questions 
 connected with expenditure, such as new barracks, or various improvements, 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 27 
 
 the expense was the obstacle that stood in the way, the Government perfectly ^ Licut.-Gcn. Sir 
 
 Coincidin"-. Thomas M'Mahon, 
 
 ■^65. When were you Commander-in-Chief in Bombay? — I was Commander- ''" " '^•'^•°' 
 in-Chief in Bombay in February 1840; 1 served from February 1840 to March February 1853 
 184/ ; consequently I was seven years at tlie head of that army. 
 
 3(16. Did you find the native troops in general satisfied with their officers? 
 — Perfectly so. 'ihey are the most willinsz: troojjs that can be imagined ; always 
 ready fur work ; always ready to go to any place, either by land or by sea. 
 
 367. You spoke of the barracks ; vFere the barracks of the European troops 
 such as you ajjjjroved of? — The barracks were greatly deiicient when I went 
 out there first ; but since that time new barracks have been erected, and im- 
 provements have been made to meet the severity of the climate by annexing 
 wash-houses to tlie barracks, and building verandahs, and by having machines 
 called punkahs, all of which assist very much in presenting health. 
 
 3(it>. During the period you were Commander-in-Chief was there the same 
 ground of complaint of which the Committee have already heard, as to the 
 abstraction of officers from their corps fur staff and for administrative pur- 
 poses ? — It was a constant subject of complaint on my part when I was Com- 
 mander-in-Chief, and I look upon it to be a very great evil. 
 
 3fi<». You stated that you made representations on that subject ; to whom 
 did you make them i — Those representations were subjects rather of conversa- 
 tion than of formal communication by letter ; knowing the difficulty that the 
 Government had about expense, I made representations in conversation at the 
 Council table rather than sending them, as Commander-in-Chief, by letter. It 
 was the subject of constant conversation. I understood the Government to 
 say that they were quite williug on every occasion to adopt, as far as could be, 
 my suggestions ; for instance, I was allowed to form a corps of lancers ; also a 
 corps of light infantry, a fusilier corps, and a rifle corps, which never existed 
 before ray time ; and which showed that the Government was willing to coincide 
 with my suggestions. 
 
 370. In your opinion, should the present system of furloughs be maintained? 
 — I think that a great portion of it should be maintained ; but I think it bears very 
 hard on the officers (that is, the Company's officers) ; I am not making any 
 allusions to the Queen's service. An officer is allowed to go to New South 
 Wales, to China, to the Mauritius, to the Cape of Good Hope, and to Egypt ; 
 but not to England without losing his appointment. I say that is a very 
 mistaken rule now existiug, and one which bears very hard indeed. If an officer 
 comes to England it is very easy to get him from England ; but if you send 
 him to New South Wales, I have known officers who overstaid their leave some 
 seven or eight, and even as much as nine months, because they were not able 
 to find a passage from New South Wales to Bombay. 
 
 371. Tlie Committee would be very much obliged for any suggestions you 
 have to make with a view to iucrease the efficiency of the army? — In the 
 commissariat department I think there might be great improvements made 
 with regard to the native contractors. I think there might be, to a great 
 extent, an abolition of them ; not totally ; but I think it would be great 
 economy, and would prevent a great deal of fraud if, instead of those native 
 contractors, some other means could be adopted in the commissariat. There 
 are excellent officers in the commissariat department ; I allude to the Englisli 
 officers, they are very efficient men ; but the native contractors I think much 
 the reverse. 
 
 372. Mr. Hiime.^ If you wished to reduce those native contractors, would 
 you supply their place by Europeans, or in what way ? — I would supply their 
 place by respectable non-commissioned officers, Europeans, I mean, as far as it 
 could be done. 
 
 373. You think that a corps might be formed of certain grades in the com- 
 missariat deijartuient that would be preferable to tiie present system of native 
 contractors '! — Far preferable. 
 
 374. Have you ever made any such suggestion to the Government in writing ? 
 — No, but we have talked it over a hundred times. 
 
 375- Would you be prepared to lay before the Committee the result of your 
 mature consideration, as to the reforms which vou think might be made in the 
 commissariat department ? — If the Committee order me, I shall use my best 
 efforts to prepare such a statement. 
 
 0.10. D 2 376. Mr.
 
 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gen. Sir 376. Mr. V. Smith.] You heard the evidence of Sir Willoughby Cotton? — 
 Thomas M^Mahon, J f]jj} 
 
 Bart., K.c.B. ^__ j^.^j ^.^^ ^^^,^^^ ^^^^ g^^^^p opinion as he did, relative to the employment 
 
 2A February 18 -q "^ particular castes iu the sepoy regiments ? — I think in most things I perfectly 
 ^ ■ accord with him ; but with regard to its being any detriment to the service to 
 have those Bralnnins or Rajpoots amongst the men, I think it rather a desirable 
 thing ; I am in favour of high caste men very much ; T sav? its advantage when 
 I was in Bengal, in former days, when I saw some of the finest native corps 
 that can be imagined. 
 
 378. You did not observe that they had peculiar influence over the others ? 
 — The Brahmins certainly have great influence ; I do not mean mischievous 
 influence. 
 
 379. Mr Hume.'] Have you found the opinion of officers who have com- 
 manded corps to be in favour of high caste men for maintaining discipline r — 
 In most instances where I have conversed with officers of the Bengal army, 
 1 have always heard them praise the Rajpoots and the high caste men; cer- 
 tainly, in physical power they excel the other natives of India. 
 
 380. Sir T. H. Mm/dock.] You seem to be of opinion, that for the purposes 
 of the connnissariat, it would be desirable to substitute European privates, and 
 non-commissioned officers, in place of natives ? — Yes, I would have a greater 
 infusion of Europeans Serjeants amongst them. 
 
 381. Are not that class of privates and non-commissioned officers in an 
 European regiment, whetiier the Queen's or the Coaipany's, generally speak- 
 ing, very ignorant indeed of the vernacular languages r — Then such as could not 
 carry on colloquial intercourse, of course, I would not introduce. 
 
 382. Mr. Hardingc] Are not there some regiments in the Bombay army 
 which have a very large proportion of high caste men ? — I would not say a very 
 large proportion, but some have high caste men. As the Bombay army is 
 partly enlisted from the upper provinces of the Bengal Establishment, they 
 have an infusion of high caste men among them ; a great part of t-he army is re- 
 cruited within the Company's Bombay territories in the province called the 
 Concan ; but the high caste men come from the Bengal provinces. 
 
 383. Mr. Ilinnc] Have you witnessed any inconvenience from a number ot 
 Em-opean officers being drawn off from native regiments for staff purposes ? — 
 I have. 
 
 384. Chairman.] How would you form a staff corps ? — It could be done in this 
 sort of way ; you could form a staff corps by considering the officers employed 
 on the staff as non-effective regimentally. 
 
 ■^'ii'',. Sir CjI. Grei/.] Woidd you fill up the vacancy of the officer in his regi- 
 ment ? — That ought to be done. 
 
 386. Would those officers ai)pointed on the staff corps remain permanently 
 on the staff corps, without any opportunity of returning at a future period to 
 their regiments ? — They could have the power of returning to their regiments. 
 
 387. if the vacancy of an officer leaving his regiment to be a])pointed to the 
 staff corps were filled up, how wovdd that offic^er get back into his regiment? — 
 He might be replaced on the staff by an officer of his own rank from the same 
 regiment as himself. In the event of the latter not being deemed fit for the 
 jjarticular staff situation vacated, an officer already on the staff might be trans- 
 ferred to it, who could be replaced in his appointment by the new man. 
 
 388. ])o you contemplate as officer on the staff corps being permanently 
 attached to it? — He would lose his prospects in the regular succession in the army 
 if he were permanently attached to the staff corps, unless it were ari'anged that 
 his promotion shoidd go on ; hut there is no reason why it should not go on, 
 the same as the Ciuartermaster-general, the Assistant Uuurtennasters-general, 
 the Adjutant-general, and the Assistant Adjutants-general, and the Commissa- 
 ries and Assistant Connnissaries. 
 
 38*). Mr. JJiniic] Have you ever seen the plan submitted by Lord Hastings 
 to the Government of India, for establishing a staff regiment in order not to 
 <lraw off the Eumpi'an officers from their regiments as is now done ? — I was 
 never awa}- from Lord Hastings for nine years, Init I do not recollect anx'thing 
 of that kind ; but it may have happened. 
 
 390. Sir J. I/n//f/.] When the army is ordered to go on service, the 
 officers detached from their regiments on staff appointments always rejoin their 
 regiments ? — Almost always. 
 
 391. Sir
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 391. Sir G. Grei/.'\ But the vacancies so made are not filled up in that case? Lieut.-Gen. Sir 
 — No, not permanently ; other officers are appointed to act in their absence on Thomas M'Mnhon, 
 service. BarL^j<^. 
 
 3q2. Mr. Hardinge.'] Would your plan enable a colonel at a future period to ^ , 
 rejoin his regiment and take the command of it, after having l)e(n for years in a "'' ^ "^"^"^^ ' ''^' 
 political ajjpointraent?— Instances have occurred of lieutenant-colonels liaving 
 been in ])olitical api)ointments for a sei'ies of years, and afterwards returning to 
 their regiments ; and, if thought fit, such might l)e continued. 
 
 393. Would you recommend that officers should be enabled to do so ? — 
 A man who is for a long time in a political appointment, in fact, gets out of 
 practice. It is like an officer being for a long time on half-jjay, the man gets 
 what I call rusty ; he does not know the rules of the service that have passed 
 since he has been absent, unless he is a very iudusti'ious person, and watches 
 those things. But as to handling troops after a man has been away for several 
 years, he makes a very poor appearance on the parade. 
 
 394. Sir T. //. Mdddock.] Woidd it not be a still greater disadvantage that 
 if he were a captain he would be ignorant of all the men of his company, and 
 if he were a lieutenant he would know nothing of the men under his com- 
 mand ? — I think that is a tiling that would be so soon got into again, that it 
 does not strike me as a difficulty. 
 
 3Qfi. Sir C. J Food.] Would that objection be removed to a considerable 
 extent if there were more European officers attached to each regmieut ? — Cer- 
 tainly if the regiments were increased in officers, it would add to their efficiency. 
 I have looked into the East India Register, which is the Army List for all India, 
 and I see that there is at this moment one Bombay regiment without a captain 
 at all. 
 
 3q6. Would that plan give a greater choice of officers for superior employ- 
 ment than would be given by the formation of an exclusive staff corps?— Yes, 
 it would ; if you increased the number of officers at present, it would, of course, 
 render the portion required for the staff much more easy of supply, and be far 
 preferable to a staff corps. 
 
 SUGGESTIONS 
 By Lieutenant-General Sir Thomas M'Mahon, Bart., k. c. b. 
 
 In obedience to the desire of the Committee that I should make anv sug- 
 gestions I deemed likely to contribute to the efficiency of the army, I beg, with 
 reference to Questions numbered 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, and 388, to offer 
 a strong recommendation that some means may be resorted to to remedv the 
 great evil at present so justly complained of, of the want of European officers 
 with the native regiments of the regular army in India. 
 
 It is requisite first to observe, that the full complement of officers belonging 
 to each native regiment is just half what is allowed to Her Majesty's corps 
 serving in India ; the former consisting of 24 only, the latter having 48. And 
 this proportion even is but nominal, as from the Company's regiments the 
 average number detached on staff and other duties is more than six, while 
 there are absent on furlough and sick certificate nearly five, leaving with each 
 of all grades for the performance of regimental duty, including those in sick 
 quarters vvith their corps, on temporary leave in India, and detached duty, 
 about 13 officers, of whom nearly one-third ai*e of the junior grade of ensign. 
 
 In my answer to Question 384, I have ventured to suggest as one plan of 
 correction of this state of things, that officers employed on the staff' should be 
 considered non-effective regimentally ; and in the two subsequent answers, 
 that they should be permitted to remain on the strength of tlu'ir regiments, 
 and their promotion to advance, and that the effective regimental officers 
 should be also promoted. 
 
 With a view to assist in the very desiraljle object of providing as many 
 officers as possible for regimental duty, another arrangement might be to 
 permit officers to be appointed only to such staff situations as are properly and 
 immediately connected with the army, and at the same time to send back to 
 their regiments those who are now employed on miscellaneous duties totally 
 unconnected with the service, which latter could be conferred on uncovenanted 
 servants. 
 
 0.10. D 3 But
 
 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Licut.-Geu. Sir But the simplest and most efficient mode of dealing with the evil complained 
 Thomas M'Makon. ^f^ would, I humbly conceive, be to increase the several grades in each regi- 
 Bart., K.c.B. ^^^^^ ^f j.j^p Company's army, say to the extent of one major, two captains, 
 TTT ~ and two subalterns, with such prohiljitory orders to the local governments as 
 
 24 lebruary 165^. ^^^^d effectually put a positive limit to their demands for officers for non- 
 military employment. This increase will doubtless be objected to on the score 
 of expense, but that difficulty will have to be encountered in any course that 
 may be taken : for it nmst be borne in mind, that if many of the situations 
 now held by officers of the Company's army were to be bestowed upon unco- 
 venanted servants, they would probably have to be paid much larger salaries 
 than those which officers get in addition to their military pay. 
 
 The latest returns from the army of Bombay show as follows : — 
 
 Total officers of the 29 regiments of native infantry - - 696 
 Absent: Staff, military, and civil departments - 130 
 
 Non-military duties _ - _ - 53 
 
 Total absent on the staff - - - 183 
 
 Sick, and on furlough to Europe - - - - 133 
 
 316 
 
 Remaining for 29 regiments, including sick within the 
 
 limits of the Presidency, and on leave of absence - 380 
 
 Classed as 
 
 follows : 
 
 
 Field officers 
 
 - 
 
 - 24 
 
 Captains - 
 
 - 
 
 - 64 
 
 Lieutenants 
 
 - 
 
 - 166 
 
 Ensigns - 
 
 
 - 126 
 
 
 380 
 
 Averaging with each 
 Regiment. 
 - 1 
 
 6 
 
 4 
 
 13 
 
 Note. — The above statement has been compiled from an Army List published 
 under the authority of the Bombay Government, dated 10th of January 1853. 
 
 Tho' AI' Malum, Lieut.-General. 
 
 Luna, 28° die Febnuirii, 1853. 
 
 MEMliEUS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Bariiiji'. 
 
 Sir CImpIis Wood. 
 
 Mr. llaidinge. 
 
 Mr. Cobilen. 
 
 Sir T. H. Maddock. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Sir R. H. Inglis. 
 Sir James Hosg- 
 Mr. Edward Ell ice. 
 Sir George Grey. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Mr. Ilume. 
 
 Mr. R. H. Clive. Mr. Lowe. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 Lieutenant-General Sir George Pollock, g.c.b., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 Licut.-Gen. 307. C/iairmrm.'] IN what year did you enter the Indian Army r — In 1803. 
 
 Sir G. I'oilod, ^,)S. Will you be kind enough to give the Committee a statement of the 
 
 "''^ "' appointments which you held in India? — I was first appointed quartermaster 
 
 28 February : 853. of a battalion, and then adjutant-(iuartermaster ; then brigade-major to the 
 regiment, and then assistant adjutant-general to the regiment of artillery. 
 
 399. Having
 
 ■on. 
 
 38 Fcbruurv l8s?. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 399. Haviiii^ been much engafj;e(i in very important military operations, you Lieuu-O 
 have liacl great opj)ortunities of iorniing a true estimate of the character of the ^iir 6. FoUock, 
 native army ; the Committee will be glad to hear your opinion of their effici- ';c. n. 
 ency in the first place in the field r — [ think they are highly efficient in the 
 field. 
 
 400. You have seen the Bengal native troops also in quarters ; is their dis- 
 cipline stich as you approve r — Quite so. I had opportunities of judging of 
 that from having commanded a district, and also a division of the army in 
 cantonments. 
 
 401. Are the equipments of the native troops efficient? — I think they are; 
 especially since the recent improvements in the muskets. 
 
 402. Are the guns and the other materiel of the army equal to those of the 
 Royal Artillery '■ — I think they are. I would say with regard to the artillerv, 
 that I think then; ought to be a greater proportion of batteries horsed than 
 there are now ; they are di*awn a great number of them by bullocks ; 1 think 
 bullocks are objectionable ; I would recommend the whole of the foot batteries 
 to be drawn by horses. 
 
 403. Are the m a gf zir.es in India kept amply supplied with military stores? 
 — I should say t hat they are so far as the Government is concerned. There 
 are certain rules laid down by a Select Committee as to the quantity of stores 
 and ammunition that every magazine ought to have. I am not sui'e they 
 always have that quantity. For instance, at Kytul, there was an affair in which 
 our troops were a little pressed, and they required troops to assist them imme- 
 diately ; and when they inquired, it was found that there was no small arm 
 ammunition in store. That was of course an error on the part of the person 
 who commanded at the place ; but generally speaking, there are proportions 
 laid down by the Select Committee, which, 1 believe, are attended to. 
 
 404. How was that an error on the part of the person who commanded 
 at the place? — He did not see that the proper number of stores was in the 
 magazine ; I believe it was Kurnaul or Ludeeana, or some place up the 
 country. 
 
 404*. Had he full power of increasing the quantity without reference to the 
 Military Board? — No; but if he had indented for it, of course it would be 
 supplied. 
 
 405. In that case it was his fault, not the fault of the Military Board- — I 
 should think so ; though the Military Board might have found out the deficiencj' 
 by looking at the retuins. 
 
 40b. Sir C. Il'ood.] It would be his duty to see that the corps under his 
 charge was fully supplied up to the complement ? — Yes. 
 
 407. Chairman.'] Are the native artillerymen, in all respects, good and trust- 
 worthy soldiers ? — Certainly. 
 
 408. Has there been any falling off of late years in their quality ? — I do not 
 think there has. 
 
 409. Where are they chiefly enlisted ? — Some are enlisted in Bengal ; but 
 at Cawnpore, they come in from Burelly, Lucknow, and various places in the 
 Upper Provinces. 
 
 4 1 o. Having served very much with European artillery, you have had ex- 
 perience in their barracks ; are they such as you would approve of for your 
 men r — Some barracks of late have been built with pucka roofs, and very 
 excellent barracks they are ; barracks that have been formerly built were fre- 
 quently of thatch, and I think thatch is preferable to the pucka roof, because 
 the sun does not strike upon it so strong ; but they would be improved by 
 raising the verandah a couple of feet higher. 
 
 411. iiiv J. Hogrj.'] What does pucka mean? — The pucka roof is a fiat 
 roof with no grass over the top, and I think they are objectionable ; I think 
 that the grass protects the men from the sun better than the pucka roof. 
 
 41 2. Chairman.] Has there been a new regulation that the barracks hhall be 
 built with the pucka roof now?— I do not know ; I think they still continue to 
 build them with the thatch of grass. If the verandah were raised higher, I 
 think they would be preferable to the other building ; but some improvement 
 is wanted with regard to the married people. They take up room in the 
 barracks and prevent proper circulation of air ; sometimes where the barrack 
 is not made for marrii d people they put up partitions which greatly prevent 
 the air circulating ; the custom is very objectionable. 
 
 0.10. D 4 413- III
 
 3« MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Liiut.-Gen. 413. In general do you consider the barracks to be very well ventilated ? — I 
 
 Sir G. Pollock, think they are. 
 
 ^'■^■^- 414. And generally high enough? — Yes; there are a great many pucker 
 
 „_ barracks in the country ; at Jelalabad, at Cavvnpore, at Dinapore, at Fort 
 2 e ruarj 1 .,3. ^yy^jj^jj^^^ j^^^j j^^ Dundrum, and at Cliinsurah in the Bengal Presidency. 
 
 41,5. Is every care taken of the health of the troops? — Every care. They 
 have baths both for the men and the women ; they construct balhs wherever 
 it can be done. The greatest possible attention is paid to the troops in the 
 hosi)itaI : they have tatties by which the men are kept cool, and they have 
 punkahs (fans), which are pulled over the Europeans who arc sick ; and they 
 have ice given to them when desirable. 
 
 416. Besides an increase of horses in the artillery, are there any other im- 
 provements in the artillery which you would recommend? — 1 think there is a 
 deficiency of officers. Lately at Peshawur three companies of Europeans were 
 under the command of a very young second lieutenant. Bat that may have 
 been in consequence of bad arrangements in India. 
 
 417. Does that deficiency apply more to the artillery service than to other 
 native regiments ? — I cannot say, but I think there is a deficiency of officers 
 in all the branches. 
 
 418. Do you think that deficiency of officers has been productive of injury 
 to the service? — It is impossible for one young second lieutenant to command 
 three companies of Europeans ; that is, perhaps, a solitary case, but still it was 
 the case in that instance. 
 
 41Q. Is there any other mode of obviating that difficulty than by an increase 
 of officers ? — I should think there is no other way of obviating it than by either 
 increasing the number of officers, or keeping them strictly with their corps. 
 
 4-.10. Are the regulations of the Company, as to the number of officers, 
 strictly adhered to '! — Yes, I believe so. In that instance at Peshawur, it may 
 have been that the officers had left through sickness, and so had left this young 
 man to himself. I cannot say how that was ; I merely sjjcak of the fact. 
 
 421. Would the best May, in your opinion, of remedying the evil, be by an 
 increase (;f the number of officers attached to each regiment, or by having a 
 staff corps ? — 1 think a stafi" corps would remedy the evil immediately. 
 
 422. Have you any idea what the expense of that would be ? — I have not the 
 least idea. 
 
 423. That staff corps would not consist of officers attached to any particular 
 regiment ? — No ; when an officer went to the staff corps he would be struck 
 off the regiment, and another officer appointed in room of him. But I do not 
 quite understand the nature of a staff corps. There is a staft" corps, I believe, 
 attached to Her Majesty's service. 
 
 424. Have the drafts for the staft" corps for civil employment been equally 
 divided amongst the armies of the several presidencies ; or has the army of one 
 of the presidencies had fewer staff apj)ointments than another? — That 1 cannot 
 say ; but they certainly have some from each presidency. At present there are 
 officers from the Madras arm}' serving in the Punjaub and in the U])])er pro- 
 vinces of India; but generally speaking, for the appointments in Bengal, they 
 have taken Bengal officers. 
 
 425. Has the Madras or the Bombay army more officers with its regiments 
 in proportion than the Bengal army?- That I cannot say. 
 
 42(). Staff appointments are objects of ambition to the officers ? — Yes. With 
 regard to staft' ai)i)ointments it is quite clear that an officer, in going out to- 
 India, docs not look to his regiment for employment ; he looks for a staff ap- 
 pointment, and the consequence is, it is injurious to the regiment ; he cares 
 little about the regiment ; his oi)jcct is to get a staft" ap])()intment. 
 
 427. "Wiien officers who have held staff appointments return to their regi- 
 ments, in the case of their regiments being re(pured for actual ser\ice, have 
 you luid opportunities of remarking whether their efficiency was diminished I — 
 I think it must be diminished. I remember an instance of an officer returning 
 to his rijriment when he was a lieutenant-colonel ; the Marquis of Hastings went 
 to the parade to review the regiment. The officer told him that he had not 
 been on i)aradc for 20 years, and that the major would manoeuvre the regiment, 
 and he did it. 
 
 428. What course was followed with regard to that officer ? — The Marquis 
 removed him to another regiment the next day. 
 
 429. In
 
 SELECT COMMIITEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 33 
 
 4'20. In staff nppoiiitmonts you include political appointments ? — Yes, I in- Licut.-Gcn. 
 elude all ajipoiutnicnts. ^ir C. PJlock, 
 
 430. And commissariat appointments also ? — Yes. ^•^•"- 
 
 431. Sir ('. Wood.^ You include all appointments in which )iiilitary men are 28 Tcbruary 1853. 
 placed, exeeptini; regimental ones ? — Yes. 
 
 432. C7i(iirm(n>.^ You state tliat officers, when they (X)nie out to India, look 
 to those ajipointments rather than to pronxition in their regiments? — De- 
 cidedly. 
 
 433. And you see no way of correcting that hut by an increase of officers, 
 which would involve very great expense : — Yes. 
 
 434. With regard to the furlough system which now exists, would you recom- 
 mend any alteration in it ? — 1 cannot see why an officer .'^hould not come home 
 as well as go to the Cape. He takes two months to get to the Cape, and he 
 takes one month to come to England ; but I think it would require great care 
 in drawing up the regulations, otherwise it is very liable to be almsed. But I 
 think there can be no objection to their coming to England. 
 
 435. Are you speakhig of furlough or of sick leave ! — I am speaking of sick 
 leave to the Cape. 
 
 436. Are those sick leaves abused? — I am not aware of cases of abuse of 
 sick leave. I dare say there may be cases ; but I am not competent to speak 
 to that. 
 
 437. With regard to furlough, would you allow a furlough to be obtained 
 before 10 years' service? — I think if the three years' furlough were divided 
 equally among the 21 years, or the 24 years, it would be better than letting 
 them come home after 10 years' service. 
 
 438. With the improved means of travelling, three years at one time would 
 not be required ? — No ; they might come home at three different ])eriods : say, 
 after six or seven years, or somewhere thereabouts ; and then again at 14 vears, 
 I would give them three years, so that they might be taken at three aiff'erent 
 periods. 
 
 439. Would that be of advantage to the service? — I think it would be of 
 advantage to the service, because a person would be in better health, and he 
 would go back in better spirits altogether ; he would be improved by coming 
 home; I think his ideas would be enlarged by coming to England, and it 
 would be a satisfaction to him ; and I think the service would be benefited 
 by it. 
 
 440. Would you put the privilege of sick leave upon the same system as is 
 enjoyed by the Queen's army with respect to retaining staff' appointments ? — I 
 know two instances in Her Majesty's service where the thing was done without 
 hesitation : Colonel Churchill, in the one case, the quartermaster, came home 
 and went back to his appointment, and I think Colonel Havelock did the same ; 
 but it would require to be strictly guarded to take care that it was not 
 abused. 
 
 441. 3Ir. Ellicc] At present, a gentleman going on sick leave, if he goes to 
 Australia or anywhere eastward of the Cape, on going back resumes his 
 appointment ; but if he goes to England, and is only absent for the same time, 
 he loses his appointment ? — Yes. 
 
 442. Do you see any reason for that ? — No ; except that I believe the Act of 
 Parliament prohibits his coming to Europe. 
 
 443. Do not you think that a person who goes to Australia or to the Cape of 
 Good Hope, or to the Mauritius, for his health, loses the whole of his time, 
 except as regards his health ? — Yes. 
 
 444. Whereas if he comes to England he is likely to be benefited by seeing 
 European society and the habits and customs of this country ? — Yes ; and not 
 only that : but if a person goes for two years to Australia, before the two years 
 are expired he must take measures to get back again ; sometimes he cannot 
 get a passage back from Australia under nine or ten months. Now, in Eng- 
 land, if anything called for his services in India, he would be back in a month 
 or six weeks ; he is always to be found, and can always get back. 
 
 445. C/iairnian.'] A system prevails in India of the officers in a regiment making 
 up a ])urse to ju'ocure the retirement of the senior officer; has that system 
 worked well, in your opinion? — 1 think, as far as the senior officers are con- 
 cerned, it works well ; they are either unable or unwilling to do their duty, and 
 they are glad to get the money and s;o out of the army. But it is carried 
 
 o. I o . E further
 
 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gen. further than that, and it is now practised among younger men ; I think many 
 
 Sir G. Pollock, Qf them get a sick certificate who really do not deserve it ; I have seen many 
 
 " of them ; I know instances of it. There ai-e some in England now, who are 
 
 28 February iS/tQ ^^ ^'^^^ health, who have got a sick certificate to say that they are not able to 
 
 perform the active duties of their employment. Some get a sick certificate, 
 
 .and they go to the hills and draw the pay, and, I think, the batta of their rank ; 
 
 there they remain in the hills, some of them in very good health ; I have seen 
 
 many instances of it. 
 
 446. Has any other mode of correcting that abuse occurred to you than that 
 of greater strictness as to sick certificates ? — I think every officer under those 
 circumstances ought to appear before the Medical Board ; sometimes they are 
 a little unwell and they take medicine which produces irritability, or fever, or 
 a bad appciirance, and they get a sick certificate, but 1 believe many of them 
 are quite able to do the active duty of their profession. 
 
 447. Could any change in that system be adopted which would correct the 
 evil which you mention without interfering with the senior oflicers likewise ? — 
 1 do not know, unless it was confined to orticers of a certain rank. 
 
 448. Does not the promotion which thus takes place by seniority extend to 
 all the officers in tlie regiment ? — Yes, but I have known many young men 
 invalided in that «ay when it was said to be in consequence of their not being 
 able to perform tlie active duties of their profession ; and I have seen them a 
 very short time afterwards perfectly well. 
 
 449. Mr. FJllee.] No person can come home on sick leave unless he has 
 been e.xammed by a Medical Board r — No. 
 
 4.50. Are the certificates to which you allude, certificates to go to the hills ? 
 — They go to the hills from the upper provinces, and the report is sent down 
 to the Medical Board ; but I have seen many of them who are as capable of 
 doing their duty as I am myself. 
 
 4.5 1 . But when they come to the presidency for embarkation are they ex- 
 amined by the Medical Board ? — They do not embark ; they go to the hills, and 
 there they live and get their pa)' and their batta. 
 
 452. Tliey are not subject to any further examination during the time that 
 they are in the hills ? — I think not, beyond what the doctor gives them at the 
 time. 
 
 453. Do you think that periodical examinations during the period that they 
 are at the hills would be of advantage ? — I do not know about periodical ex- 
 aminations, because they have left their regiments. 
 
 4.54. Sir T. II. Muddock.'\ You are speaking of officers who are removed 
 from the strength of the army and are placed upon the invalid list ? — Yes. 
 
 455- C/iairmau.] The Committee have had some observations made to them 
 as to the imperfect state of the commissariat ; do you coincide in opinion that 
 it is not in a satisfactory state r — 1 do not thiidv it is. 
 
 456. Can you suggest any mode of improving it? — The only thing I can 
 suggest is the employment of a certain number of resj)ectablc Serjeants ; I would 
 have one with every regiment, and whenever a regiment comes to the ground^ 
 he and the Quartermaster should see all the animals fed. They are not fed ; 
 the Government pay for tlie feeding, and the native agent pockets the money, 
 
 4,57. You incan that that person should be an European ? — An European. 
 
 45^!. Do you consider the Military Board to be upon an efficient footing? — - 
 I would rather that there should beno Military Board at all. 
 
 459. To whom should the reference l)e made in that case r — There is a 
 Commissary-general for the commissariat department. I do not know that 
 I can suggest anything just now ; but I think the Military Board delays busi- 
 ness, and 1 think things are not projjcrly (!oue by the Alilitary Boartl. As an 
 instance, when I was at Peshawur, I went to visit the hospitals ; I found some 
 of the men outside the tents ; uixui iiuiuiry, I found that tlie officer had indented 
 for more tents, but couhl not get them ; I asked him the reason, and he told me 
 that the l!oard had replied to him that the number of tents for the company was 
 so many, and altliough the number in a companv was increased from 80 to 100, 
 as the nundjcr of tents was for a ci!mi)any tlie eomi)aiiy must get into the tents ; 
 of course I represented it, and it was altered immediately ; but that is the way 
 in which tlie Board conduct the business. 
 
 460. To whom did you rcprcs( lit it r — I forget whether it was the Commander- 
 
 in-Chief
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 35 
 
 in Chief or the Governor-general, l)ut it was to one of them; it was remedied Lieut. Gen. 
 immediately. Sir G. Pollock, 
 
 41)1. Could the serviee be carried on effectively without a Military Board r — ^" *^' "' 
 
 I think it might, but I am not prepared to say how. 28 February 1853. 
 
 462. Looking to all the circumstances of the Indian territories, do you 
 consider the numl)er of troops now maintained in India, as well as the establish- 
 ment, to be more than is necessary .' — Certainly not. 
 
 4(;3. Do you consider it to be sufficient for all purposes ? — I hope it may be ; 
 but there is a very lar^e tract of country, and if the territory which is now 
 added to it is to be ours 1 should think that more troojjs must be raised. 
 
 464. Do you consider the present proportions between tlie Queen's troops 
 and tlie Company's European troops, and the native army, to be the proper 
 projjortions ? — I have not thought of that. 
 
 4().> Would you recommend a reduction of tlit; Queen's troops as they are 
 now ? — I cannot sa\' ; it depends so much upon the state of the country ; there 
 is a great number of troops now; I think there are 9,000 more than there used 
 to be ; but we have acquired a great deal more territory, and now you want 
 more European regiments. 
 
 466. The Queen's forces are now 29,480 men ; that does not seem to you too 
 large a number to have in India?- -No, I do not think it is, considering the 
 extent of territory we have. 
 
 407. And the Company's European troops are about 6,000 ? — Yes. 
 
 468. Does that appear to you to be enough? — I should like to see more 
 Compiiny's troops, certainly. 
 
 4(19. Do the two services act in perfect harmony? — In perfect harmony; 
 both natives and Europeans act in perfect harmony. 
 
 470. No exchange of service is allowed between the Queen's troops and the 
 Company's service .' — No. 
 
 47 1 . Would it, in your opinion, be desirable to allow an exchange of service 
 from one to the other ? — No, I think it hardly desirable to exchange from one 
 to the other. 
 
 4.72. Are the native troops perfectly satisfied with their present treatment ? — 
 I think they are, but I do not think the younger officers pay that attention to the 
 native troops that they ought ; I do not think they associate with them in the 
 way that they ought. Formerly they used to attend their little ceremonies, 
 their hoolies, and their mohurrums, and so on, and to mix with them ; and 
 the men were fonder of their officers than they are now, I think. 
 
 473. But you consider the native force as efficient ? — Quite efficient ; and if 
 properly treated, I think they are almost equal to any troops in the world. 
 
 474. Should you consider them efficient if opposed to Europeans ? — I think- 
 so, if properly treated ; but we must have officers who understand them, and 
 their religious prejudices must not be tampered with. I think as hmg as they 
 are well treated they will go anywliere. 
 
 475. Is there any other suggestion that you think it desirable to make to the 
 Committee ? — I do not recollect any. 
 
 476. Sir 7^. Hogg.'\ AMien you were in India, I believe the departments of 
 the Commissariat and Public Works were both under the superintendence of the 
 Military Board ? — They were. 
 
 477. Are you aware that commissions have been appointed by the present 
 Governor-general, and that since the report of those commissions the dej^art- 
 ments of the Commissariat and of the Public Works have been withdrawn from 
 the control of the Military Board ? — No, I was not aware of that ; but I think 
 it is a very desirable thing. 
 
 478. Are you aware that the present tendency in the public service in India, 
 both in the civil and military departments, is to substitute individual responsi- 
 bility for that of Boards ? — I was not aware of that ; but I think it is very desi- 
 rable that it should be so. 
 
 47(). You spoke of an officer being invalided. I believe that if an officer is 
 at a Presidency, he cannot be invalided except upon the rei)orl, of the Medical 
 Board ? — That, I believe, is the case. 
 
 480. And that if he is in the interior of the country, a special Medical Board, 
 consisting of three officers, is assembled for the occasion, and they nmst report 
 him unfit for public service before he can be invalided ? — I do not know exactly 
 all the routine ; I only know the facts, that I have seen officers, I suppose 
 
 0.10. E 2 twenty
 
 Z6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 l.imt.-Gfn. twenty years younger than myself, hale and robust ; and six or eight months 
 
 Sir G. I'ollock, afterwards I have found those officers invalided, as being incapable of perform- 
 
 ^' ^- "• ing the active duties of the service. 
 
 «8 February 1853. 48 1 . And it is your opinion (which, I believe, is not a peculiar one) that there 
 
 is a great deal of laxity in India in granting medical certiticates / — 1 certainly 
 
 think there is. 
 
 48:2. You spoke of the artillery not being sufficiently officered ; are you 
 aware that, within the last six or eight months, a captain and a subaltern have 
 been added to each brigade ? — I was not aware of that ; 1 heard that a captain 
 liad been added, but nothing else. My evidence was given without reference 
 to that, for I had not adverted to it ; I merely heard that as a report. 
 
 483. You spoke of a deficiency of stores at Kytal ; now I believe that at 
 Kytal there was no magazine there? — No, there is no magazine. 
 
 484. But I believe there was one within a moderate distance. Is not Delhi 
 within about .")() or GO miles distance ? — Kurnaul, I believe, was the nearest 
 station ; eitlier Kurnaul or Loodeeanah. Tlie detachment which was to go to 
 the relief of the Kytal force could not march under three days ; it was then 
 that they found that they had no surplus small-arm ammunition. 
 
 485. In fact it was a mere detachment, witliout a place having a magazine ? 
 — It was a detachment. 
 
 48r3. Witli regard to the difficulties respecting sick leave, to which you have 
 adverted, is not tlie difficulty one that can be remedied onlv by a statute ; does 
 not the Act of Parliament prevent any officer holding his appointment when he 
 leaves what are called the " Indian limits " ? — Yes ; it can only be remedied by 
 Act of Pailiament. 
 
 487. Mr. Ihcme.] You said that the army must be increased if new territo- 
 ries be added ; did you mean Pegu, or what did yo\i allude to ? — I had refer- 
 ence to Pegu ; I thought tluit, if any increase of territory was made, we must 
 increase the army ; but with regard to the rest, it is a matter, I think, more for 
 the Ciovernor-general and other jjcrsons in power. 
 
 488. In speaking of the Enroj)ean troops, have 30U in the course of your 
 service formed any opinion how far the number of Europeans in the Company's 
 service should be increased or decreased, in proportion to the number of the 
 Queen"s r — No, it never occurred to me. I did not know that there was any 
 particul-.ir number laid down for the Company's troops. 
 
 48;'). My question has reference to the present establishment, whatever it 
 is. As tlie Uueen's troops are relieved, and the Company's are not, have you 
 formed any opinion on this subject of the advantage or disadvantage of having 
 a greater number of troops that do not receive relief? — 1 think tliat the Com- 
 ])any's troops are just as efficient as the Ciueen's troops in every part of India. 
 You will find very few of the Queen's regiments leaving India, in which the 
 great majority of the men would not be glad to be transferred to the Company's 
 service. 
 
 4()(). TJien if tlie Company's European troops arc equally efficient with the 
 Queen's, would it not be economical to have a larger proportion, so as to lessen 
 the expense of reliefs which now takes place in the Queen's troops ? — I should 
 say decidedly so. You cannot have more efficient regiments than the Com- 
 pany's l''jir()|)ean regiments are. 
 
 4()i. What do you mean by the expression," if the native troops be properly 
 ti'eated." Is it your opinion that attention is not paid by the junior officers 
 to the native corps, by aeqtiiring a knowledge of their language and other 
 means .- — I do not refer to a kiu)wledge of their language; but they do not 
 treat them with that kindness that formerly was the case with the native corps. 
 My opinion generally with regard to the native regiments is this : that when- 
 evi'r anything goes wrong, whenever there is anything like a discontent or a 
 mutiny, or something less than that, there is always blame to be attached in 
 some shajx- or other to tlie officers. 
 
 492. You recollect that when Lord Ilardinge went to India, there were dis- 
 turbances, almost mutinies, in several regiments at the different Presidencies ; 
 rlo your observations apply to the causes of those disturbances ? — I do not 
 recollect what the}' were. 
 
 493. Sir./, llofjg.'] Are you aware that the number of the Company's Euro- 
 pean troo])s is limited by statute? — No; I was not aware of that. 
 
 494. Mr. JJttiite.J Seeing that the Company's European troops have arrived 
 
 at
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 37 
 
 at the niaxiinuiu allowed by the Act of Parliament, is it your opinion that it Lieut.-Gen. 
 \".ould be wise to leave a discretion with the Comjjany to increase the number '•'■■ ^'- P<'H^<:k, 
 of their Eiu-opean troops? — I should say yes, decidedly. c.r.y.. 
 
 4Q.'5. Are we to undi'rstand tiiat it is the case with the Europeans generally, „o TT, ~,, 
 in the Queen's regiments, that, when relieved, the greater portion of them would ' ' ^' ^ •' ' 
 rather I'cmain in India than come to England? — I knew that to be the case for- 
 merly ; but I do not know now. 1 l)cliL\ (^ there is some regulation which pro- 
 hibits their going into the Company's service. I believe the feeling of the 
 greater part of them was, that they would like to remain in India. 
 
 4()('. Ho not, yon consider that, when the (-liieen's troojjs are relieved, those 
 who wish to remain, and are fit for duty, should be allowed to stay in India ? — 
 I would rather have recruits from England, because yon would gi't old men ; 
 and when you lunc a regiment of dragoons, for exami)k', going home, you have 
 no place for tlieui to fill. 
 
 -i()7. Having observed the discipline of tiie European troops of the Queen 
 and of the Company, is it your ojjinion that the Company's troops are equally 
 disciplined and efficient with the Queen's troops ■ — Quite so. 
 
 4118. \\ ith regard to the opiinon which you expressed respecting having one 
 single commissary rather than the [Military Board, arc the Committee to under- 
 stand that, generally speaking, you prefer individual responsibility to that of 
 Boards ?— I do certainly. 
 
 40>). lu all matters / — In all matters. 
 
 500. Will you state the advantages which you think would arise from that ; 
 is expedition one? — Expedition is one. I thiidv that there is considerable 
 delay in getting anything through the Militar}- Board. 
 
 .501. Generally speaking, you want to attach greater responsibilitv to what 
 is done ? — Yes. 
 
 .502. You were asked respec^ting invalid officers ; what becomes of invalid 
 European officers in India? — Tliey live in the hills generally. 
 
 .")0,:;. Do not you consider that the circumstance of their being allowed to 
 live where they please, forms a great inducement to them to get themselves put 
 on half pay? — i think it is. 
 
 ,■•504. You are aware that the privates who live at Buxar and Chunar are never 
 invalided but after long service .' — Yes, very long service. 
 
 505. If the officers were ordered to do duty with those privates, do you think 
 it would put a stop in a great measure to that practice ? — I think ir would. 
 
 ^oC). Mr. Elliot.] in the case of an officer who is bona fide invalided on 
 account of really bad health, would not the sending him to Buxar or Chunar, 
 and keeping him there, in all probabilit}' shorten his life much more than if he 
 were allowed to go to the hills ? — It might ; but if he were invalided and came 
 to England, still I believe he would receive pay ; he might be required to 
 remain in i'^ngland ; but, of course, if he were to go to Chunar instead of going 
 to the hills, it might shorten his life. 
 
 507. Would there not be very little hope of his recovery at Chunar if he 
 were in very bad health ?^Ycs. 
 
 508. Whereas if he went to the hills he would have an opportunitv of being 
 in a fine climate, and he would have a possibilit}' of, in a great degree, reco- 
 vering his health ? — Yes : the most glaring ease of an officer being invahdcd 
 who was perfectly well, was that of an officer who, after passing a considerable 
 time in the hills, and being master of the ceremonies at all the 'oalls there, 
 came down to Calcutta to take the superintendence of a bank ; and, after 
 attending behind the scenes at the theatre a considerable time, and enjoying 
 all the amusements of Calcutta, he blew his bi'ains out, and there was an end 
 of him ; but he was one of those otiicers who had actually been invalided for 
 being unable to perform the active duties of tlie service. 
 
 .509. Mr. Harilhiffe.] Are not those instances very )-are ? — The finale of this 
 man is rare ; but I think the other is not rare ; I think it is very frequent. 
 
 .510. What is your opinion of the horse artillery in India; is not it very 
 efficient, and quite an indisjiensable arm of the service ? — Quite so. 
 
 511. Was not Sir Walter Gilbart enabled, by the rapidity with which the 
 
 horse artillery moved, to follow up the pursuit of the enemy, after the l)attle of 
 
 ■' Guzerat, and to prevent their breaking down the bridge at Attock ? — Yes ; he 
 
 had two batteries with him, one a nine-pounder, and the other a six. \\'ith the 
 
 nine-pounder he could not follow up so quickly as he wished ; he was obliged 
 
 o. 10. E 3 to 
 
 *1 -' Tj * ~ C^ Q
 
 38 -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gen. to go Oil with the six-pounder batteiy, and travelled as quickly as the 
 Sir G Pollock, cavalry. 
 
 <~'-^''- 512. Are there anv troops now in Bengal on the detachment system; you 
 
 ~7 ~ recollect the experiment that was made of the detachment system r — I recollect 
 
 ruary 1 53. ^^^ experiment being made, but I do not recollect how it terminated, 
 
 .•)i3. Do vou think the number of horses now in a troop is sufficient r — I do 
 not know how many there are; it is 14 years since I have been with the 
 regiment. 
 
 T i 4. Do you think that the calibre of the guns is sufficiently heavy - — 
 Certainly, for the horse artillery. 
 
 515. You are aware that they are lighter than the guns of the Royal Artil- 
 lery r— 1 do not know what the calibre of the Royal Horse Artillery is ; whether 
 they are six-pounders. 
 
 516. Yon recollect the establishment of the elephant batteries? — Yes. 
 
 517. What is your opinion of their efficiency, for ihe purpose of bringin;;- the 
 heavy guns r— -I think they are very efficient. We never ought to go into 
 action with the enemy without having 18-pounders, very heavy metal, because 
 they always bring very heavy metal against us ; and those guns should be con- 
 veyed by elephants. 
 
 .51S. Are you aware that, during the Sutlege campaigns, the heavy guns 
 were brouglit into action by elephants? — Yes. 
 
 519. Are you aware that, at the siege of Kote Kangra, the elephants drew 
 those IS-jiounders up very steep hills, and that that was the cause of the 
 garrison surrendering without tiring a shot? — Yes. 
 
 .'i^o. With regard to the connnissariat, do you recommend that there should 
 be European contractors ? — No; I do not think you would be able to do that ; 
 but I think there should be more European superintendence ; I think that in 
 every native regiment there should always be a man to see the animals fed. 
 We lose more by the animals being deprived of their daily food than by any- 
 thing else ; and the man who saw the animal fed would also see that he was 
 not overloaded. 
 
 .5-n. In your advance upon Cabul did you not pay for provisions which 
 you never received r — Which I suspect we never received. The animals used 
 to come to the ground at a very late hour, and were sometimes not fed at all. 
 Of course 1 did not see the accounts of the commissariat, but I dare say the 
 man ciiarged the commissariat officer for it, and that he was obliged to pay it, 
 but there ought to be somebody to see whether the animals are fed or not. 
 
 522. Do you think that in the Bengal army there is too high a proportion 
 of high caste mcai and not enough low caste men admitted ? — No, I do not think 
 that ; for my part I never wished to have any low caste men. I conunanded 
 a battalion of native artillery about seven years, and I never asked what a 
 man's caste was, but if he was a man of low caste 1 did not enlist him ; a man 
 that sw-eeps the house is a Hindoo, but he is not a man that I would entertain 
 as a soldier. 
 
 52.5. Is there not this advantage in low caste men, that they will do as they 
 did at Moultan the other day, where they worked in the trenches ; whereas the 
 high casti' men in the Bengal army refused to work in the trenches ? — I never 
 had any men who refused to work in the trenches. At Jelallabad they worked 
 in ))ulling down buildings ; the Europeans and natives all worked together ; I 
 never heard any oljject. I do not believe that if they were i)roperly treated 
 they would object to do anything that did not militate against their religious 
 l)rejudices. 
 
 524. You do not thiidv that the sepoys of the Bengal army liave any thing 
 to comjjlain of as regards their allowances and the boons which have been con- 
 lerred upon themr— 1 do not think they have. 
 
 525. Their marching l)atta always covers their expenses? — Yes. 
 
 .■526. When the price of otta exceeds 15 seers the ru])ee they get a money 
 ratitm : — Yes; there was an order during Lord Hardinges time about the 
 hutting-Mioney. 
 
 .127. V\ ith regard to ])romotion by seniority in the Bengal array, is it not 
 often the case that a non-commissioned officer is passed over, and a junior 
 ajjijointcd because the senior cannot write r — Yes ; and from what I have had 
 an op])ortunity of knowing, I think it is a very proper ruk;. A man cannot do 
 his duty unless he writes ; I think, generally speaking, there is great inipaili- 
 
 ality
 
 SELKCr COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIKS jo 
 
 ality in the promotion. If a man will not learn to write, he is not tit for l.ieut.-Gcu. 
 promotion. Sir G. Pollock, 
 
 ,")2^>. With i-egard to tlu' numbers of the Indian army, are you aware that it ^-l-u. 
 
 is smaller in proportion to the population of India than any other army in g T^i ~ 
 
 Europe ? — I was not aware of tliat. "^"""^ ^ ^^' 
 
 .jjy. Do you think it would be desirable to increase the sepoy's pension for 
 every five years' service after fifteen years' service ? — I do not know what the 
 rule is ; I think it is increased after a certain number of years. 
 
 530. Can you suggest any means for remedying the objection which you 
 have made to the state of the barracks, as regards the accommodations of the 
 married men ? — No, 1 do not know that I can suggest any change ; but in the 
 barrack acconnnodation proviiled for the married people, there is something 
 indelicate in having only a little partition put up ; it is a mere piece of cloth 
 that is put up ; that is all thatt he married man has for his jjrivacy. 1 do not 
 think it is delicate. It might be obviated, I think, by having all the married 
 men together. But that is entirely a matter of local arrangement. I think the 
 commanding officer miglit always effect it in some way or other. 
 
 ,331. Are there many married men in the army having their wives in bar- 
 racks ? — Yes ; I think there are. 
 
 532. Mr. Ellice.] What proportion to the whole number of men ? — I do not 
 think they are limited. 
 
 533. What do you think is about the actual proportion ?— I cannot say; 
 but I do not think they are at all limited ; any of the men may marr^' if they 
 hke. 
 
 ,534. Sir C. JFood.] May any number take their wives with them ? — They do 
 not take them when they go on service. 
 
 53.5. But when in barracks ?— They go from station to station, and the wives 
 travel at their own expense. 
 
 536. Mr. Ellice.l But you cannot state the proportion which the married 
 soldiers, having their wives with them, bear to the single men ? — I cannot. 
 
 ,537. Sir R. H. Ttu/lis.l Did you refer to natives or to Europeans in your 
 last few answers r — To Europeans. 
 
 538. Mr. Cobden.^ You say there is a limit to the number of Enropean 
 troops emplo3a'd in the Company's service : is there any limit to the number 
 of Queen's troops employed in India ? — I do not know; but I believe there is 
 an understanding between the Government and the (Company as to the number 
 of troops to be employed. 
 
 539. Will you explain what advantage there is in having two services ; one 
 portion of the European troops being the Queen's, and the other the Com- 
 pany's ? — I cannot explain that. 
 
 .540. is there any advantage, in your opinion, in having two services ? — Not 
 at all, that I see. 
 
 541. Would not the European portion of the army be as efficient if they 
 were wholly under the control of the Company ?— I think quite so. 
 
 542. Do 3^ou think it would be better to have them consolidated? — As far as 
 my opinion goes. I think it would. 
 
 543. Mr. Hume.] Would not, in that case, the whole expense of reliefs be 
 saved r — Entirely. 
 
 544. Would not the soldiers themselves be more satisfied than they are now, 
 seeing that you say that when ordered home they would prefer to remain in 
 India in the Company's service ? — I believe the European Company's service 
 are perfectly satisfied with everything that is done for them. The life of a 
 soldier in India is a life of ease and comfort when they are in their barracks ; 
 of course, like everybody else, in the field they nmst undergo privations. 
 
 54,5. Is the numlDcr of European artillery not limited, or do they form part 
 of the G,000 ? — They form a part of the number. 
 
 546. Chairman.'] In the event of any great emergency arising to require an 
 auo:mentation of the army, is it not the fact that upon an application from the 
 Court of Directors additional regiments have been sent from England to India r 
 —Yes. 
 
 547. If the Queen's troops were not employed at all in India, how would 
 you provide for a case of that kind ; could you, by enlistment, iDimcdiately 
 raise the Indian army to the required amount I —You could raise an Indian 
 
 o. I o. E 4 'ii'my
 
 40 
 
 :\II?>UTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE 
 
 Lieiit.-Gcn. 
 Sir G. Pollock, 
 
 G. C. B. 
 
 2P Felwiiary 1853 
 
 anny very conveniently by havinir doi)6ts at different stations, un(i employini? 
 the existing army in the field ; when the army goes into actual service it can 
 very easily be increased. 
 
 54^- How would you provide for an increase of the I'^uroj)ean troops in the 
 service of the East India Company ' — You could not increase the Europeans. 
 
 540. Do you api)rehend that any inconvenience would arise from tlie 
 imj)ossibility of very i-ajjidl}- increasing the European force in India under anv 
 giveii circumstances which nught arise? — \Aith regard to increasing it, of 
 c'ourse the troo])S would ba\e to come from England ; and if the Company 
 brouglit out troops, they could onl}- bring- out raw troops, unless they had 
 depots here. 
 
 5 'JO. Sir J. IlfH/f/.'] Are you aware that the number of Queen's troops to be 
 stationed in India is limited liy statute to 20,000, and that no number exceed- 
 ing that can lie sent, except ujion the requisition of the East India Company ? 
 — I have some idea that something of the kind was the case ; but now I re- 
 collect that there are depots at which the Company recruit, and the men so 
 recruited are in a very efficient state, I believe, befoi'e they go out. If the 
 Company's European troops wei-e increased to, say 20,000 men, the Europeans, 
 of course, at the depot in England would be increased in like proportion, so that 
 in the event of any emergency occurring they would have several regiments at 
 command immediiitely. 
 
 .5 J I. yir. Hume.] In your conunuuications with tlie Queen's officers have 
 j'ou found them generally to possess a knowledge of the langua;^es of the 
 country r— I cannot say that 1 have. 
 
 552. Are the officers in the Company's troojjs generally well acquainted with 
 the r.ative languages ? — I think they are. 
 
 553. Is it not of great importance, that in a c^ountry like India, the officers 
 connnanding every corps should have a knowledge of the language of the 
 country ? — Certainly. 
 
 5.54. M ould it, on that account, greatly benefit the service if the Company 
 had the ])ower of increasing their army, so that all the officers should possess 
 an acquaintance viith the native languages of the country ? — I should think so, 
 certainly. 
 
 555- 111 ("^se of detachments being sent, or other occurrences, taking place 
 in war, when the men get separated from the main body of the troops, are not 
 the Queen's Eui'opean officers very helpless in holding communication with the 
 iiatives - — Yes, they are, decidedly. 
 
 550. Then your opinion is, that it would be desirable to allow the Company 
 to recruit in order to increase their European troops in India, and that they 
 should always have officers to command them who should become acquainted 
 with the native language ? — Yes ; I see no reason why they should not be able 
 to send out at any time some thousands of men from the recruiting depot, be- 
 cause they must recruit ibr 20,000 or 2.3,000 men. 
 
 .5/57. Sir G. Grej/.] Do you mean that, in your opinion, a regiment in the 
 Queen's service, in India, is less efficient on service than a regiment of Euro- 
 peans in the service of the fast India Company? — No, I think they arc quite 
 perfei't ; but that the Company's European regiments are quite equal to the 
 Queen's. 
 
 .'J.'iS. I understood }ou to say that you were of opinion that, owing to the 
 comparative ignorance of the native languages on the pai't of the officers of the 
 Queen's regiuients, some disadvantage arose to the sei'vice? — But that is only 
 wlien they come in contact with the natives, which does not often happen. 
 
 559. Tlien, generally speaking, you consider a regiment in the Queen's 
 ser\ice fully ecpial, on duty, to a regiment in the Company's service.' — Ye:?, 
 quite. 
 
 500. .Mr. Jlimc^ iMy question alluded to the case of a regiment detached 
 on se])ruate duty. AVouhl not a corps wiili officers who were ac(piainU'(l with 
 tlie language of the countr}- be, in that case, more efficient than tliey would be 
 without that knowledge of the language of the country? — When sent on 
 detaelinient, it is, of course, very desirable that they should know the languagi'*: 
 the ('(.n.-eciuence is, that when a Queen's regiment marches they generally attach 
 an interpreter to it. 
 
 .V'l- >h- J. JI(i//f/.~\ As there has heen very little warfare in Euroi)e, forti:- 
 Tiaiel}-, of late, do not you think it advantageous that the Queen's troops should 
 
 oc(;asicnally
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEHIIITORIES. 41 
 
 occasionally go to India, as a good field of experience? — I dare say they wouUl Lieut -Gen. 
 fight under any circumstances. ^"' '^- •?"''<•«*> 
 
 5112. C7itiin/itiii.\ Are the Connnittee U, understand that you have ohscrved ^' ' ' 
 
 any circumstances which lead you to think that the military service in India og lebruary 1853. 
 would have heen hetter performed if all the luiropean troo])s had been \nider 
 the Comi)any"s orders ? — Not betlfr pcrfornu-d, as far as the duties of tlie 
 soldier go, but merely as it regards connnunicution with the natives of the 
 country. 
 
 .5().;. You have stated that the two services act in perfect harmony ? — Com- 
 plete. 1 have had several of the Queen's regiments under me. 
 
 564. The Committee understand that you have no statement to make as to 
 any injury having arisen to tin; si-rvice in India from the present mixed com- 
 position of the whole European army ? — Not the least. As far as the duties 
 of the oiricer and the soldier are concerned, they are perfectly perfornn^d ; 
 nothing can be better. But when they come into (contact with the natives it 
 stands to reason that if they do not know the language they are not ecpial to 
 an officer who has been If) or 20 years, or 40 years in the service. So that 
 when a Queen's regiment marches they have always to take an intcM-preter with 
 them, because they do not understand the languiige. 
 
 565. Sir T. H. Maddock.^ Under what commissions do the officers of the 
 Comjiany's army act ; whether of the European troops or of the native troops ? — 
 Under the Queen "s commission ; and they have the Company's comnussion as 
 high as the rank of lieutenant-colonel. For instance, lam a lieutenant-general 
 in the Queen's service in India ; but 1 have no commission from the Company 
 as lieutenant-general. 
 
 56ri. Do you pay fees for both commissions ? — Yes. 
 
 567. How much are those fees r — I do not know. 
 
 ,568. AVhat commissions have the native officers of the native army .- — They 
 have commissions of jemadar and soubahdar. 
 
 5(it). From whom do they receive those connnissions ? — They receive them 
 from the Government. 1 think it is from the military secretary of the Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 570. They are signed by the Governor-general in Council in Bengal ? —Yes. 
 
 571. Can you describe what is the nature of the oath of fidelity taken by the 
 European and the native sepoy ? — No, I do not recollect it ; it is in the Articles 
 of War. 
 
 572. Ic is an oath of fidelity to whom r — To the East India Company, I think, 
 if I recollect rightly ; it is in the Company's Articles of War. 
 
 573. Are you of opinion that under any alteration in the administration of 
 the affairs of India in England it would be advisable, or otherwise, tliat all 
 comn)issions of officers should ])roceed from the Crown ; and that the troops, 
 both European and native, should be called ujjon, instead of an oath of alle- 
 giance and fidelity to the Company, to take an oath of fidelity to the Crown ? 
 — That is a subject which I have never considered ; but when I took the oath 
 of allegiance to the Company, I considered myself quite as taking it to Her 
 Majesty. 
 
 .',74. Do you think it would be desirable that the European soldier and the 
 native sepoy should take an oath of fidelity to the Crown, rather than an oath 
 of fidelity to the Company ?— I see no advantage in it ; the Company's troops 
 are commanded constantly by Queen's officers, and they go wherever they are 
 ordered. 
 
 ,'')75- ^Vhat is the meaning of their being Company's troops ? — They are j)aid 
 bv the Company. 
 
 "576. But what is the Company ; it is the Government, is it not:— The Go- 
 vernment of India. Tlie Government is the (iovernment of the I-ast India 
 Company. 
 
 577. Nominally? — Whether nominally or not I believe that every soldier 
 who takes the oath of allegiance to the East India Company feels iiimself bound 
 to do whatever the Crown may desire to have done in India without a moment's 
 hesitation about it ; I thought that by taking tiiat oath I was bound to go 
 wherever I was ordered. 
 
 578. Have you ever taken into consideration the comparative merits of the 
 regular native cavalry of Bengal, and of the irregular native cavalry ?— 1 have 
 seen them both on service, and 1 have seen them bctli behave exceedingly well. 
 
 0.10. F
 
 4-2 
 
 MIXUTKS OF EVIDKXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Gen. 
 Sir G. Pollock; 
 
 G.C.B. 
 
 28 February 1853. 
 
 We had an instance of the 2d regiment of regular cavalry that did not behave 
 well. But then, on the other hand, we had an instance of the 9th regiment 
 at Meanee almost saving that action liy the gallant charge which they made ; 
 and we had the 5th cavalry, I think at Naghpoor, performing wonders with only 
 a squadron or a troop ; during the time of l^ord Lake I never saw better men 
 than they were. 
 
 579. The simple object of my inquiry is whether it would be desirable to 
 increase the number of one of those branches of the service, and proportiouably 
 to decrease the other branch? — I do not think 1 am competent to spe.ik 
 about that, because I have never seen much of the irregular cavalry. But 
 speaking of them without knowing much about it, I should think they have too 
 few officers with tliom. There is a complaint of the want of a sufficient number 
 of officers with the native regular regiments, yet there are irregular regiments 
 raised with only three officers to them. 
 
 .-,So. Vvith reference to an answer which jou gave, that in consequence of 
 the absence of officers on staff employment there is a deficiency of officers in 
 the artillery, are vou aware whether t)fficers are allowed to be absent from the 
 artillery in tlie same ratio as compared with the whole number of officers in the 
 corps that are allowed to be absent from the cavalry and infantry ? — Yes, I 
 believe they are allowed to be absent, but I do not know in what ratio : but 
 there are a great number absent generally. 
 
 583. But they are not allowed to be absent in anything like the same ratio 
 that is allowed in the cavalry and infantry ? — 1 believe not ; but I do not know 
 what the proportion is. 
 
 582. Having been a member of Council, you must be aware how very averse 
 the Government always is to allow artillery officers to be absent from their 
 corps upon staff employment without necessity? — I am aware of that ; and I 
 believe that there are some appointments even now at this day that they would 
 not gi\ e to an artillery officer, mei'ely on account of his being an artillery officer ; 
 but 1 think the custom is absurd. 
 
 ,•583. You have spoken of sick leave being granted to officers of the army, 
 and of their being allowed to invalid without sufficient reason, in consequence 
 of the laxity which is often evinced by the medical examiners ; can you suggest 
 any remedy for that evil? — No ; if a man is not lit to perform the active duties 
 of his service, it is very natural that he should go before a committee ; but 
 some practice duplicity, and the doctor is taken in aud gives a certificate. I 
 do not know what remedy you can apply to it. 1 know that among the 
 younger branches of the service there are many officers at large who arc quite 
 capable of doing their duty, but they have been iuvaliiled ; but how it is to be 
 stO|)ped, I cannot say. 
 
 584. You have spoken of the inefficient control of the Commissariat <lepart- 
 ment, do you attribute that to inefficient superiutcadence on tlie part of the 
 European commissariat officers ? — No ; I do not know that I can attribute it to 
 that, but it is owing to the character of the natives wh.) are employed. As an 
 examjjle, 1 may mention a circumstance which occurred when I was at Jellalabad: 
 A native came to Major Thompson, and offered him two lacs of rupees, 20,000/., 
 if he would put him into the situation of gomashta, althougli at that moment 
 it was not known whether I was going back or going forward ; and if I had 
 gone back, I suppose his appointment would have been at an end in a couple 
 of months. 
 
 .rSj. Arc the officers of the Commissariat Department selected for that em- 
 ploAinent in consequence of their being well versed in accounts ? — No, I cannot 
 say that. 
 
 ,5^6. Do you suppose that they can be a match for the native dealers and 
 gomasht.'is in the matter of accounts ? —The accounts will probably l)e in the 
 purchiise of grain. If you recjuire a quantity of grain, you send a gomashta to 
 mak(^ tlie purchaSr;. It it is in an enemy's country, of course he does it by 
 stealth in time of war. He brings in the grain. No European can go where 
 he does ; ;uhI the conseqcnce is, that he may make any charge he likes. 
 • .587. .Mr. Ilurdiiufe.] Arc you aware that a commissariat officer now, l)efore 
 he can lie a))pointed, must undergo an examination as to whether he is well 
 ver<ed in accounts and in the vernacular languages ? — Yes ; and I l)elieve the 
 commissariat officers arc quite equal to their work; but the imposition is on the 
 part of the native agents. 
 
 588. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 43 
 
 588. My. Hume.] You wci'c asked ulietlirr it would be desirable to chan2;e Lieut-Gen. 
 the oath, and that the Government should l)e administered in the name of the Sir G. Pollock, 
 Queen ; did you not find that the sei)oys, as well as the native officers, look to °- ^- ''■ 
 
 the sircars, and tliose that i)ay them, as the persons to whom they are respon- ^^ '^~ ' 
 
 sible ? —Yes, they do ; but they are ready to go anywhere. coruary 1 53. 
 
 .589. They invariably obey tiie orders of their oliicers? — Y''es. 
 
 590. Bclievins; that the Company pay them they are faithful in their service ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 -,() 1 . Lord Stanley.] Have you any personal knowledge of the Madras army r 
 — Very littU; ; 1 hav<_" served with them in inunnah. 
 
 592. But you are aware, as a matter of fact, that the Madras army, as com- 
 l)ared with the armies of Bengal or Bombay, has been very little em-jloyed upon 
 active service - ~ Prrhajis not, but tiiey are now employed in Burmah ; and they 
 were employed in the last campaign in Burmah, and they were employed also 
 in China, with very great credit to themselves. 
 
 50;:. But although part of the army was employed in the last Chinese war, 
 and is employed in the present war with Ava, still is it not the fact that, as 
 coin])ared with the armies of the other two Presidencies, the i\Iadras army has 
 had very little to do in active service ? — 1 think so. 
 
 5()4. Is it not also the fact that the Madras Presidency, and Southern India 
 in general, has been very free froni disturbance ? — It has not been free from 
 disturbance altogether ; I think there was an instance of a fort, where the 
 consequences might have been very serious if the thing had not been discovered 
 in time. 
 
 5Q-,. Is it or is it not your opinion that the military force now employed in 
 the Madras Presidency can be safely diminished ? — I do not think I am compe- 
 tent to judge of that ; perhaps if you wei-e to reduce it you would find a few 
 difficulties ; there might be a rising in some places ; but I do not know much 
 of the Madras Presidenc}'. 
 
 5y6. We have had it stated by a former witness, that when men of the 
 highest caste were enfisted in the native army, they were apt, on account of 
 their caste, to acquire influence over the other men, and that that influence 
 was sometimes dangerous to discipline ; did you ever find that to be the case r 
 — I never experienced that. I have heard it mentioned; but I never expe- 
 rienced it myself. I commanded a native battahon about seven years, and I 
 entertained men of all castes, except the low caste. I never entertained them. 
 
 5()7. As a general rule, the higher the caste of the men you could get the 
 better vou would be pleased ? — I think the better soldiers they would be. 
 
 .598. ^Ir. Cobden.^ Are they physically stronger than the low caste men ? — 
 I do not know that they are stronger, but I have seen a man of the highest caste 
 on parade perfectly subservient to the man who was commanding him, who was 
 perhaps a Mussulman, and after he leaves the parade that Mussulman dare not 
 come near the place where he is feeding ; he orders him off, and the man dare 
 not come near him ; but on ])arade he is perfectly obedient. 
 
 599. Mr. Hardinge.^ What is your opinion of the Goorka battalions ? — They 
 are very good men indeed. 
 
 Colonel Patrick Montgomerie, c. B. called in ; and Examined. 
 
 t)00. ChairmanJ] WILL you inform the Committee how long you have served Colonel 
 in India, and what was the last appointment held by you r — I went out to P- Mongmnerie, 
 India in 1810, and returned two years ago, after 40 years' service. The last ^-^ 
 appointment I held was Commandant of Artillery on the Madras establishment. ' 
 
 tjoi. You have had extensive experience of the service, both in peace and 
 war r — I was almost always in the field in the first 10 years of my service, in 
 the Mahratta war and the Pindaree campaign : and I sulwequently served 
 throughout the Rangoon war, and commanded the artillery in the China war. 
 
 602. You are aide de-camp to the Queen, in testimony of your services in 
 China ? — I have that honour. 
 
 t")03. Having had great opportunities of witnessing the different services of 
 the Madras Army in the field, and their conduct in quarters, what is your 
 opinion of their discipline and efhciency ; first of all in active service ? — 1 think 
 it is good, both in the field, and in garrison. I think greater attention has 
 been paid latterly to the internal discipline of corps, and that they are better 
 
 0.10. F 2 conducted
 
 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel conducted in garrison now than when I entered the service, this internal dis- 
 
 P. Montgotneiie, ciplino being more regular : I cannot say that I see much cUfFerence as respects 
 
 ^■^- tield serviee ; I think thev are as efficient as ever thev were. 
 
 ^gTTj ' <)04. Then your opinion as to their efficiency is quite favourable .' — Yes. 
 
 " ""y 1 .)3- Q^J~ There has been rather an improvement than any deterioration? — 
 Decidedly an improvement in garrison, 
 
 (io(i. Have the native artillerymen any difficulty in embarking on foreign 
 service beyond sea? — -No, I have never seen any ; a larger proportion of them 
 are called upon for foreign service beyond sea than of the infantr}^ in conse- 
 quence of the small l)ody of native artillery that we have ; I dare say the\' feel 
 it a hardship to be so often called upon in comparison with the infantry, but I 
 am not aware that thiy have ever sliovvn it. There are six companies in the 
 native battalion of artillery, and two out of the six are constantly on foreign 
 semce, whereas in the native infantry the proportion is not more probably 
 than one to ten. I consider the proportion of artillery is too great ; but they 
 have never shown any v.ant of alacrity in embarking. 
 
 (h)~. Where are they chiefly recruited ? — Latterly in the Carnatic. At their 
 first formation a consideral)le proportion of them were from Hindostan. 
 
 ho^. Are thev chiefly higli or low-caste men ? — ^lucU the same as the infantry, 
 chiefly Mahomedans and Hindoos of the lower castes ; there are some Rajpoots, 
 but not many. 
 
 (i()<). Mr. Ilume.^ What is meant by foreign service ? — In the Straits of 
 Malacca and at Aden ; anywhere beyond sea. 
 
 (ho. ChainiianA Have you re;iiarked any diflference of discipline in the 
 soldiers of diff"erent castes ? — The iiest soldiers that I have ever set^n are the 
 Madras sappers ; they are not high caste, certainly, but they are the finest and 
 most spirited body of native troops that I ever saw. 
 
 (ill. Have you remarked any want of discipline on the part of those of 
 higher caste, or have you known any difficulties to arise with them? — No, I 
 cannot say that I have : I have had no verv great experience, except with the 
 native troops of horse artiller}', and with the Golondauze Battalion. 
 
 (j 1 2. When those troops embark on foreign service, is there any arrangement 
 made as to provision for their families ?- — Yes ; a family certificate of a certain 
 portion of their pay, is left ])a}able at Madras, or wherever the faniil}" is 
 stationed, and provision was formerh' made for pensions to the widow, in case 
 the man died on foreign service. There has been a change made in this last 
 regidation, by orders from the Supreme (lovernment, wnich caused some dis- 
 satisfaction. I do not know whether it has been rectified or not ; it was con- 
 sidered by the men as an infringement of their rights. 
 
 (ir3. Did that occur when you were there? — 1 am not sure that I was at 
 Madras at the time it occurred. 
 
 (ii4. The arrangements which existed previously were agreeable to the native 
 troops, and induced them to eiid)ark with alacrity ? — Just so. 
 
 bi.5. Sir C. Wood.] Was not the new regulation entirely prospective, affect- 
 ing only men who enlisted after that time ?— Changes have been made with 
 respect to tin- i)ay which were prospective ; but I do not think the changes 
 as regards the pensions was so ; on the contrar}', that it affected every man 
 who emljarked for foreign service. 
 
 (ii(i. Cliainiuu'.J] Does tlie Madras artillery sustain its high reputation as a 
 most efficient body of troops / — I certainly think so. 
 
 (•17. Is there anv comi)laint of the Wc'uit of a sufficient number of horses ? — 
 We have only two horse l)atteries at Madras ; I think there are 12 with bul- 
 locks ; but horses ai*e much more efficient for field batteries than bullocks, and 
 there sho\ild be more horse ])atteri(s. 
 
 f)iS. is there not a s(.'hool of instruction for tli(^ artiUer\'men ? — Yes ; for 
 the officers and men at head-cpiarters. It is called the Depot of Instruction, 
 it is under a commissioned oliicer, who instructs the young offieers in all 
 matters relating to their duties as arlilkry men. Tim non-eonnnissioned offi- 
 cers and privates attend the depot in certain proportions, and go througli a 
 certain routine of instruction. 
 
 (ii(). Is that school well eondueted ? — I consider it so. 
 
 <» JO. I ssufficient practices maintained amongst them ? — There is annual prac- 
 tice forever}' portion of the corps: am))lc provision is proposed for this prac^tico 
 bv the cummandant, and the C'oniman(U'r-in-chief always assents. 
 
 621. Ls
 
 SELECT COM.AITTTEE ON INDIAN TEIIRITORIES. 45 
 
 G-2i. Is their ('([iiipiiicnt in guns, gun can-iagcs, and in all otiici' respects Colonel 
 
 ample and of the hest ([uaUty r — Tiie guns are very good. I think in trying,- to i^- Muntn'mierU; 
 make improvements in the gun carriages of late years, they have added too ''■''" 
 
 much to tlieir weight; they are heavy in diauglit, and more expensive in „ ~ ', 
 
 makuig up than necessary. ^ 
 
 i')2i. Is the numher of officers in the artillery sufficient "; — I certainly think 
 that we ought to have more officers for the efficient i)erforinance of the duties, 
 particularly captains and subalterns ; namely, a third of our first lieutenants are 
 at this n-\()ment brevet captains, \\hi(!h involves a service of from 20 to 15 years. 
 Our jtniior captain is of 23 years" service ; something shoidd be done to remedy 
 the depressing effects of such slow promotion. 
 
 (123. What addition should you think sufficient? -I think the strength of a 
 battalion of officers, and another Ijattalion of native artillery of six companies, 
 to allow of fitting reliefs. 
 
 624. 'ihat woidd involve considerable expense, would it not r — Of cotu'se 
 it must. 
 
 62.5. Have you any suggestion to make as to remedying this defect, if it be 
 a defect, in a way less expensive than b}' increasing the number of European 
 officers? — i\s regards the service generally, I think that officers in the com- 
 missariat and in '• civil employ," might with advantage be ordered to perform 
 regimental duty, for at least one month in the year, or if luiavoidably prevented 
 foi', say six months in five years, not necessarily with their own regiiuent, but 
 with one near them. I see no material objection to this. 
 
 G-iC), Instead of giving leave of absence, you would let him go and serve 
 with a regiment r — Yes ; and if the Governor-general made it incumbent on 
 each to do it, the}- would soon find the way of performing this duty. 
 
 (y2~. But that woidd not make them acquainted with their own regiment? — 
 Not with their own regiment perhaps, but it would keep ihein acquainted with 
 regimental duty. They might be near their own regiment, and so much the 
 better ; but that is not essential, I think. 
 
 ti'iiS. How man}- troops of horse artillery are there r— Six at Madras. 
 
 (J29. Could those, in your opinion, be reduced or not ? — I think not ; we had 
 double the nund)er at the conclusion of the last Mahratta war ; we had then 
 eight troops of eight guns each ; now only six troops of six guns. 
 
 630. How many field batteries are there : — Two with horses, and, I think, 
 12 with bullocks. 
 
 031. Are the arsenals and magaznies at Madras kept amply supplied with 
 military stores .' — 1 think so. 
 
 632. Have you had opportunities of seeing bodies of the Royal artillery ? — 
 There were two detacliments serving in China. Tlie first that came had 
 rockets and some heavy howitzers, but no means of moving the latter. The 
 second came without equipments, and were supplied with guns and ammu- 
 nition from the ordnance stores brought from India under my charge. 
 
 633. Have you had any opportunity of forming a judgment whether the 
 Indian artillery is equal to,'or inferior to, the Ro}'al artillery ? — My own ojfinion 
 is that it is equal ; but excepting an occasional review at Woolwich, 1 have 
 not had any opi)ortunity of seeing a properly equipped body of Royal artiller}^ 
 From what I saw in China, I should say that they had five men, and some of 
 their non-commissioned officers wore superior men, such as most likely with us 
 would have been made warrant officers. 
 
 63_|. W ith regard to your idea that one of the evils arising from the de- 
 ficiency of officers would' be remedied, by ordering each staft" officer to have a 
 month's regimental duty in the year, would that plan remove the comi)laint, 
 that there are not officers enough with the regiments generally ? — No ; 1 do not 
 know that it would ; but it would serve to remove the disadvantage of onicers 
 not knowing their duty when suddenly called to join their regiments on field 
 service. 
 
 035. Are there enough officers now on active servicer— I think it would be 
 desiiable if native regiments had more Europeans with them. I think a pro- 
 portion of European non-connnissioned officers might be attached to each 
 regiment on service in the Burmese expedition; for example, they would be 
 found exceedingly useful in showing that active spirit in difficulties which 
 Europeans possess over natives ; I would send, say, two non-conunissioned to 
 each company. 
 
 0.10. F3 ^36. Sir
 
 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel 63(). Sh' J. Hof/g.'] Are you aware that recently two officers have been added 
 
 P. Montgomerk, to eivch brisjade or battalion of horse and foot artillery in Bengal ?— I heard it 
 
 ^'°' spoken of the other day, but I did not know that it had been done. 
 
 28 I'ebruary 1853. 637. Are you aware that the question of the propriety of giving a similar 
 addition to the brigades and battalions in Madras, is at this momeni; under the 
 consideration of the Government .' — I was not aware of it ; but I must confess 
 that, considering the backward state of promotion in my own regiment, I 
 should look upon it as most grievous if it were done for Bengal and not for 
 Madras. 
 
 (13.S. You think that ought to be doner— Yes, assuredly, for the reasons 
 which I have already given. 
 
 (•Sy. You said that Ijullocks are very much used with the artillery, which in 
 the interior is very much the case ; but is it not the fact, that on all the 
 frontier stations in all the presidencies, the artillery is served with horses, and 
 not with bullocks .' — Not at Madras : we have only two horse batteries at 
 Madras ; one of them, when I left India, was at Secunderabad and the other 
 at ]\lhow. 
 
 640. Were those stations which you would regard as frontier stations ? — 
 Yes, as field stations, but Nagpoor is also one, and the horse battery was removed 
 from there to Mhow. Saugor is also a field station, and there is none there ; in 
 fact we have not sufficient horse batteries at Madras. One of the objects 1 tried 
 to attain when I was commandant was to get an increase. 
 
 641. Mr. Hume.] Would you, in fact, reduce the number of bullocks and 
 increase the number of horses ? — Just so. 
 
 642. Would there be any great difference in the expense, seeing that the 
 number of bullocks required is very considerable in proportion to the number 
 of horses r — I am not prepared to say the exact sum ; but I am of opinion that 
 th(! increase in efficiency would compensate for any difference in expense. 
 
 643. You were asked a question respecting the battalions. Is the strength 
 of officers in a battalion of the Madras army the same as in the Bengal army ? — 
 Yes, until the regulation which has just been mentioned. 
 
 644. Then your observation would apply to the battalions in Bengal and 
 Bombay as well as in Madras, as being too short of officers ? — I fancy so. But 
 I spoke of my own corps as at present situated. 
 
 64.5. You were asked respecting the efficiency of the native corps. In China, 
 where you had native corps from all the different presidencies, did you find any 
 difference in any respect as regarded discipline and efficiency r —There was but 
 a very small portion of native troo])s there at first, a rifle company, and two 
 companies of sappers from Madras, and a battalion of volunteers from Bengal ; 
 the Bengal battalion suffered very much from sickness at Chusaii. The rifles 
 and sai)})ers were under my inunediate ctjnnuand, and both distinguislied them- 
 selves. 
 
 (i45.* ^'ou say that the sapi^ers are the finest men in the service. Have they 
 suj)crior pay to the ordinary solchers :— Yes, thej- have a small addition of pay, 
 and are always on full batta. 
 
 ti4(i. 'I'liey are, in fact, artisans, and you have a;i opportunity of picking and 
 choosing better men in consequence of the superior pay that they have r — Not 
 exactly artisans ; they were originally pioneers, men who use the pickaxe and 
 shovel : rather miners than artisans. 
 
 647. You said that there was a depot of instruction at Madras. Have you 
 any means at Madras of trying and testing new inventions ; new guns or new 
 shells, or anything of that kind '( — Every facility is given for that purj)ose. 
 
 ri4X. In what way? — Either officer or man who thinks he has hit upon an 
 improvement, j)ro])oses it to the officer at the head of th;: depot, who sul)mits it 
 to a .select connnitfee of officers ; upon their rej)ort the commandant of artillery 
 generally recommends it for trial to the Militar\' Board ; if it incurs no expense 
 it is done at once, without reference, by the commandant. 
 
 r»4(). Are the Committee to understand that all propositions for improvements 
 in the service are submitted in that way to the superintendent of the School of 
 Instruction, and that he gets the assi.stance of a comnnttee of the most experi- 
 enced men of the corps : — \('S, regarding ordnance matters. 
 
 f\')0. What number of arsenals or depots for store- have you in Madras ■ — 
 Ten or Twehc. 
 
 651. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TF.RRITORIES. 47 
 
 6.5 5 . In what waj' arc they kept sui)i)lic-(l with stores ? — 'i'hcre is a commissary Colonti 
 
 in charge of each arsenal, who indents periodical!} for whatever is recpiired in P. Monigumerit, 
 his district, lioth as regards ordnance stores, or for tlie suj)])lv' of regiments v>ith <• ''• 
 
 small arms, accoutrements, or ammunition. This indent is passed by the ~; 
 
 Military Board in >-ueh proportions as they judge neiessary. These stores are '^^ I'ebruary 1853. 
 dispatched, from the princip d arsenal at Madras, by sea or in carts, according 
 to locality, vnider (charge of a warrant officer. 
 
 f>5->. Then are the Connnittec to understand that the Commissary in charge 
 of each depot indents according to the number of troops within his district, or 
 what rule has he ? -There is a regulatcid ])roi)ortion of stores for each arsenal, 
 which is supposed sufficient for all ordinary demands. 'J'he indent is generally 
 for keeping up this supj)ly, but occasionally there uiay be other demands, in 
 which case an explanation is sent by the indenting officer. When I was a 
 member the Militmy Board was engaged in reforming the established proportion 
 of stores in each arsenal ; it was fixed for some stations, but I think was not 
 finished for all when I left India. 
 
 6.-33. But as the number of troojis in each district de])endcnt on each arsenal 
 may vary from year to year, is the indent made according to the strength of 
 the corps to be stationed in that district r — That is generally understood. 
 
 654. Beyond what is called the Ordnance Senice. f(n' exercise and practice, 
 what stoi'c is kept for emergency for the sei-vice to fall back u})on ; is there any 
 rule in that respect r — When I was a member of the Military Board the estab- 
 lishing this suppl}- was under consideration ; we did fix it for certain stations ; 
 tliere was an intention of revising the whole, but whether it was finished or not 
 I cannot recollect. 
 
 6,i5. Is there not, once a year, a general survey of all the stores, by the Com- 
 missary, assisted by the European officers, and is not a retm-n of that made to 
 the Board at the Presidency r — There is an annual survey showing the balances 
 that remain each year, and the deficiencies, and Vihat they consider are unser- 
 viceable at each station. 
 
 650. What rank does the Commissary at each of those stations hold, and 
 what pay does he receive r — Generally captains of artillery ; some are lieutenants; 
 a proportion have risen through the gi'ades of conductor and assistant com- 
 missary ; they have commissions in invalid regiments. 
 
 ti.'i7. Have they any staff pay as commissaries? — Yes ; the highest staff pay 
 is 350 rupees a month, besides regimental pay, and downwards to 200. 
 
 ^^^. Who has charge of the arsenal at Madras r — A field-officer of artillery. 
 
 ti.'jO. Do you consider the present system of indents, and supply of the pre- 
 sent establishment adequate for the service r — I think so. 
 
 660. Does it lead to economy in the stores ? — I think so ; that is the object 
 of it ; to keep them complete without having a superfluity. 
 
 dlM . \\ hat power had the Military .Hoard at Madras in connection with the 
 commissary ; how- does the commissary conduct his service under the Military 
 Board ? — He is completely, as far as he is Ccmnnissary of Ordnance, under the 
 orders of the Military Board. They give him his instructions and ever\thing 
 regarding the arsenal, and all its suj)plies, is done direct through the Military 
 Board. The officer commanding the artillery on the station has a controlling 
 pow"er over the guns, ammunition and projectiles under his charge. 
 
 or)2. What is your opinion of the Military Board ; is it better, in your 
 opinion, to give the responsibility to a board, or to an individual officer? — I 
 think there is a difficulty in giving so extensive a charge to any individual officer. 
 The Military Board are charged with the ordnance accounts ; the audit of the 
 commissariat accounts, and the building and barrack department is also on their 
 hands. 
 
 663. Who has charge of the Public Works ; under what department is that 
 branch of duty ?— The fortresses, bridges, and public buildings, are under the 
 Military Board ; works for irrigation and roads under the Revenue Board. 
 
 664. Can you offer any suggestions, wuth reference to dividing these compli- 
 cated duties, so as to obtain greater efficiency ?-— I do not know that I am \n'Q- 
 pared at this moment to say what would be the most efficient system ; but I 
 have often thouizht that there might be an ini])rovement made in this respect. 
 If the stipendiary members of the Military Board had more control over the 
 working of the "board itself, than has been the case, 1 think tiny might get 
 through their work more satisfactorily than they have done. 
 
 f 10. * ' F 4 665. By
 
 48 MINUTES OF EVIDExNX'E TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Coloiitl (^t>j- B)- " stipendiary members/' do you mean those Avhose entire time is 
 
 V.Moiiigomtr'u; devoted to the department r — Just so; there are t^vo " stipendiarv members " 
 ^•^- at ^Madras, whose duty it is to attend tlie office daily to superintend the current 
 
 „"!r~ ' business, and arransi;e for the syencral meetm<i;s of the Board. 
 
 ()(to. How many other members are there r — Iwo; the commandant of 
 artiUery and the chief engineer. 
 
 667. You consider that those members of tlie Board whose sole duty it is, as 
 paid officers, to attend to the department, ought to have the responsibility 
 thrown more on tliem, and that the other members, who have other duties, 
 should come in as advisers to them ? — I think so, generallv speaking; but at 
 the same time the commandant of artillery must exercise a very direct control 
 over all ordnance matters, and the chief engineer over fortresses and buildings. 
 But, as a general rule, I think that the stipendiary members should have a 
 more direct control over the office establishment than thev have hitherto 
 exercised, the current business of the office being divided between them by 
 arrangements made by the General Board, with the authority of Government, 
 to whom they would \w responsil^le for remissness or delay. 
 
 t)()8. ;Mr. H(u-(/li>f/e.j \\ here is the JNIadras army now recruited? — Genei'ally 
 recruited in the provincH's of the Carnatic or Mysore. 
 
 66g. AVhat projjortion is there of high-caste men, as comjiared with low- 
 caste men? — In former times the aim was to keep prettv nearly the same 
 jn-oportions of Mahomedans and Hindoos. I do not know whether that prin- 
 cii)le is com]iletely acted upon still or not. 
 
 G70. Have the regiments ever evinced disinclination to embark on foreign 
 service ? — There have been several instances of disinclination ; there was one 
 instance when I was at Madras, in a corps which had been in orders to proceed 
 to the Tenasserim coast, where they would have got full batta and rations, and 
 their families would have been provided for ; the destination of this regiment 
 was suddenly changed, and it was required to embark for Scinde. The men 
 n;itm-ally asked, " What are we to leave for our families ? " and the aiithorities 
 at Madras could not, 1 believe, inform them whether they were to get the usual 
 allowances or not. The men sliowed a feeling of discontent, and did not 
 march otf the parade, after having been inspected ; they showed a sullen dis- 
 content, but there was no open mutiny. 1 w^as in charge of the arsenal at 
 Madras at the time, where corps are marelied down ])revious to embarkation, 
 lo have their arms and accoutrements j)acked. There is generally some bustle 
 and confusion on such occasions, as the men are not under the restraint of a 
 regidar parade ; but we observed in the arsenid that this regiment showed 
 rather more regvdarity than most corps in such eases. They were discontented ; 
 but showed nothing like mutiiiv- 
 
 671. Sir G. Grei/.] But that discontent had nothing to do with caste? — 
 Nothing in the world. 
 
 672. ]\Ir. JL(r(/i)if/('.] What ])ro)iortion of their pay is left for the families on 
 embarking for foreign service ; is it laid down by regulation ? — Yes, it is laid 
 dcjwn by regul.ation ; they may leave a certain proportion, but the}' are not 
 oljliged to do that. I think it amounts to as much as five rupees a mouth ; 
 they then live upon their batta and the extra allowances they get abroad. 
 
 (173. \V hat can a sei)oy save jxr annum out of his i)ay .' — 1 am not aware 
 that he can save anything ; they never do that 1 kiuiw of. 
 
 (174. Would yoii recommend that horse field batteries should be substituted 
 for the l)(dlock batteries? — A ceruiin proportion. 
 
 Gj'y Wliat projwrtion ? — I should say, that if they had six horse batteries at 
 Madras, with six trooi)s of horse artillery, they would be efficient for any ser- 
 vice called u])on. 
 
 6y6. How many officers are there usually present with a troop or battery ? — 
 A ca])taiu and three subalterns to a troop of horse artillery ; the horse batteries, 
 a captain, and two subalterns; the other batteries nnu'h under that. 
 
 G77. Sir T. II. Maddock.~\ You have mentioned that on a certain detachment 
 being ordered on foreign service, and ])ensions for the families having been 
 di.sallowed, tliere arose some disafi'ection anu)ng ihe men? — .\o; 1 did not say 
 " disafFeetioii ;" I said that I understood there had been discontent among the 
 men ; not that they had shown dis.iffection. 
 
 67^. Are you not aware ihat this arose in consequence of the Madras 
 GoveiTiment having authorised a system of pensions f(U" their families, for 
 
 which
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX INDIAN TERRITORIES. 49 
 
 which there was no precedent iuid no rule, and that that was disallowed ])y the c'uloncl 
 
 Government of In(ha ? — Sir Thomas Miun-o (hd, I b( licve, reirulate the pensions ■'''• Montgomdrie, 
 of men who vohnitecred for service to Btn-mali in 18J-I. It is mv iiii])rcssi()n '•"• 
 
 that he laid down the rules, whi(;h were followed afterwards; that botli men and ~ 
 
 officers considered them established; and when deprived of these advantages ' ' ''"'"''■■y > 853. 
 they, as most soldiers would do, felt discontented with the reduction of what 
 they had hillierto enjoyed. 
 
 679. Is the ])romotion in the artillery in Madras slower than the promotion 
 in the cavalry and in the infantry? — It is; one-third of our first lieutenants, 
 nearly, arc brevet captains; and the junior captain of 23 years' standing. 
 
 680. Does the practice of purchasing out officers prevail much in your regi- 
 ment ? — We have bought out a considerable number of oHicers in our regiment. 
 
 681. yir. J[ardiii(](>.~\ Are the young officers upon those occasions obliged 
 to subscrilje their proportion ?— There is a certain scale laid down, and each is 
 asked whether he will join the fund. 
 
 682. That has had the effect of quickening promotion ? — Most decidedly. 
 
 683. Have yon ever heard any complaint among the young officers of their 
 having to subscribe to this fund ? — The only complaints I have heard were from 
 those who either did not pay at all, or who paid irregularly. If the services 
 gain the more immediate advantage in promotion, tiiey have all the respon- 
 sibility for the money borrowed. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Frederick Abbott, c. b., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 684. Cliairman.'] HOW long have you served in India, and in what branch of Lieut.-Col. 
 the service ■ — Twenty -five years in the Bengal Engineers. F. Abbott, c. b. 
 
 685. Will you mention the field services in which you have been engaged ? — ~ 
 
 1 served throughout the first F>urmese war, in 1824, 1825, and 1826 ; I served 
 
 with the Joudpore field force, in the second campaign to Cabul, vuider Sir 
 George Pollock ; and in the first Punjaub war. 
 
 686. Did you find the engineer officers employed under you efficient as field 
 engineers ? — Always ; the field practice at Chatham, added to the theoretical 
 education at Addiscombe, admirably prepares them for the active duties of the 
 profession. 
 
 687. Had you any difficulty with the means placed at your disposal in carry- 
 ing out successfully the orders of the general in command ?— Never any 
 difficulties that were not expected, and that could not be overcome. In 
 passing the Sutlej river I had a large and magnificent establishment of boats 
 placed at my disposal, by which means the army was crossed over, and enabled 
 to bring the chiefs to subjection. 
 
 688. Do vou consider the native sappers and miners as properlv organised.' 
 — In the present organization I think they are exactly like the Royal regiment 
 of sappers ; I think nothing can be better. 
 
 68g. Are the European sajjpers, educated at Chatham, found to be efficient 
 as non-commissioned officers to the native sappers ? — They come out very well 
 trained, but, generally speaking, the best are draughted off to the department 
 of Public Works, the Commissariat, and other branches of the service. 
 
 690. Have you had great experience in the department of Public Works in 
 Bengal? — I served for 20 years in it. 
 
 6qi. Have any barracks for European troops been constructed under your 
 superintendence ? — A great number ; nearly half the Bengal army was moved 
 up to the frontier during the time I was superintending engineer in the North 
 Western Provinces; and we had to put the whole of those under cover in a very 
 short time. 
 
 692. Are vou acquainted with the plan of barracks called the Standard Plan 
 for tlie whole of India, laid down by Lord William Bentinck r — It is some years 
 since I saw the plan, but in former years, when I was superintending engineer, 
 it was always in my hands ; I have a sufficient recollection of it to answer any 
 questions regarding it. 
 
 693. Can you describe the dimensions of the barracks according to that 
 plan ? — I should describe the Ijarrack as one central ward, 24 feet broad, be- 
 tween two smaller wards or verandahs, 1 2 feet bx'oad, and with six running feet 
 
 0.10. G of
 
 50 MINUTRS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-CoI. of wall marked off for pach man. That was the established scale by Lord William 
 F. Abbott, c.B. Bentinck's plan, the walls 20 feet high in the central, and something less in the 
 side wards. 
 28 February 1853. ^^^ q^ ^^^ recoUect what number of cubic feet of air this plan allowed per 
 man?— About 1,200 cubic feet. 
 
 69^. Do you consider that sufficient? — Abundantly; but the question is 
 hardly one of actual dimensions, because, with proper means of ventilation, a 
 much smaller quantity will answer the purpose ; it is about twice as much as 
 is allowed in the hot climates by Her Majesty's Board of Ordnance ; I think it 
 is about four tiuies as nmch as they have in England to each soklier ; and we 
 all kno-\ that when a man goes down in the water in a diving cap he has about 
 half a cubic foot ; so that it is not a question of actual dimensions, but a ques- 
 tion of supply with nference to the means of ventilation. 
 
 696. Have you seen the European barracks at most of the stations in 
 Bengal ? — I think I have seen all the European barracks above Benares ; that 
 is all that were constructed before I quitted India. 
 
 097. Do you consider them to furnish proper and suitable accommodation 
 according to the climate? — All those which are called permanent. '1 hose 
 which are intended to remain as permanent buildings afford very good and 
 salubrious accommodation. There are others there run up for temporary 
 purposes; they are little more than bivouacks, and are done away with when 
 not required ; and they are inferior, of course. 
 
 698. If the troops suffer from disease, would you attribute it to want of 
 adequate barrack accommodation ? — I never suspected it myself, and I never 
 heard that it was suspected by any medical man. 
 
 (399. Has the Government shown a desire to remedy any defects which have 
 been pointed out by medical or other inspectors r — Always. I have always 
 seen a most earnest desire on the part of the Bengal Government to remedy 
 any defects, and to increase the comfort of the European soldiers. 
 
 700. In the barracks, the construction of which you superintended, have 
 punkahs been put up .' — 'I'hroughout all the European hospitals punkahs were 
 in full use, and they were in use in some of the barracks of the European 
 troops, but I believe not throughout. Many officers commanding regiments 
 objected to punkahs. 
 
 701. And baths, we have heard, have been introduced ? — Several baths were 
 constructed during the time of my superintendence. ^Ve found it was a very 
 great comfort to the men, and it was the intention of the Government to add 
 them to all barracks of a permanent nature. 
 
 702. Is there any other improvement for the health or the accommodation 
 of the troops which you would suggest to the Committee? — If the question 
 alludes to the plan of barracks laid down by Lord William Bentinck, I could 
 point out some other improvements which experience suggested ; for instance, 
 I would always have barracks in India under a pent roof instead of a flat one. 
 
 703. '1 hatched ? — Thatched or tiled. It affords much better ventilation, 
 and it makes a much cooler barrack. I would also give outer verandahs ; open 
 verandahs round the barrack. 'I'hose afford a very admirable lounge for the 
 men, and keep them out of the sim. They are in the open air, but not exposed 
 to the sun. .And I would also give married barracks, taking the women out 
 of the barracks. That is a mooted point with many of the officers. Many of 
 these improvements have already been carried out; tliey were carried out 
 under my superintendence in many new barracks. 
 
 704. Mr. Ellice.] Do you know what is about the proportion of married to 
 unmarried soldiers with the regiments? I do not. 
 
 70.",. Sir J. Iloyfj.] What per centage is allowed? — I do not exactly recollect 
 what the regulations are uj)on the subject. 
 
 706. Is it not 12 per cent.? — I do not recollect. 
 
 707. Mr. }lxnnc.\ In Lord KUenborough's time, was not there considerable 
 alteration made in the l)arracks ? - hnmense. 
 
 708. Were you there at the time ?— I was. 
 
 709. Was much trouble taken in choosing the locality, to have them upon 
 high groinid instead of low ? — Very great care was taken. 
 
 710. Yon stated that nearly half the Bengal army were placed in new bar- 
 racks ; for all those barracks were high situations selected ? — To the best of our 
 judgment. 
 
 7U. That
 
 SELECT COMMITTER ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. si 
 
 711. That you consider to be the rule throughout? — Always. There is i.ieui.-Col. 
 alwa}-s a committee formed of engiiu'cr and medical officers to sur^■(■y tlic t::r<)und F. AIMti. c. b. 
 
 first, ^^'e arc supposed to know all al)()ut the old cantonments, and uc kntnv 
 
 the best spot in those cantonments. '^8 February 1853. 
 
 712 Arc there any rules fixed respeetini^ ventilation ?— There are no fixed 
 rules. In Lord \\ illiam Bentinck's plan there is nothinj^ l)cyond small apertures 
 left in the roof. In my superintendency of the barracks, we took a great deal 
 of troiiblc about the ventilation, and brought it to great pcrfecticm by having 
 large openings in the pent rcHif, regulated by shutters ; so that you may allow 
 as much or as little air to escape at each as you like. And everybody who has 
 been in that climate knows, that the moment you open an aperture in the roof 
 you get a draught from the do(n's and windows. 
 
 7 1 3. In the hot season is there provision made for tatties ? — There is not a 
 European who has not the benefit of a tatty, even the dcta< lied Serjeants. 
 
 714. Will you state what is meant by a tatty; what it is made of, the 
 manner of its operation, and the effect it produces ; supposing the temperature 
 out of doors to be at 1 10° to 130°, what is the result of that system of tatty ? — 
 The tattv is a mere mat, formed, generally speaking, of a species of grass called 
 " kuss," which is bound loosely together so as to allow the wind to pass through 
 it. 'i his is fitted up to all the windward doors of the l)nilding. This tatry is 
 supplied continually with water, by a man appointed for the special purpose, 
 which keeps it continually moist, and the air passing through this tatty parts 
 with its caloric, and enters the room with a reduction perhaps of 40" of tempe- 
 ture ; sometimes I have known it as much as that. It cools the ajjartment, and 
 also produces what to some constitutions is an agreeable moisture. In India 
 the air is absolutely dry. There is no moisture in the air during four or fire 
 months in the year, and that is very trying to an European constitution. 
 
 71.^. Are not these means calculated as much as possible to preserve the 
 health of the soldiers, if they will keep within doors ?--Very much. 
 
 716. Are you able to state the proportionate improvement in health by the 
 new system which has been adopted ?— I have seen no medical returns which 
 would enable me to state that. 
 
 717. Have you provided anywhere in the barracks, grounds or placets where 
 exercise can be taken ? — Generally speaking, there is an open shed ; a sort of 
 gymnasium. 
 
 71 8. Do you consider that that would be a very excellent addition to the 
 barracks, in order to afford employment for the leisure hours of the men ? — I 
 think that workshops and gymnasia are well adapted to improve the condition 
 of the men. 
 
 719. Could they not be erected at a very trifiintr expense, having plentj'^ of 
 room on which to locate them r — Yes. They could be very well erected out of 
 the canteen funds, I think. 
 
 7-.^o. Are there canteens in all your barracks now ?— I believe every Euro- 
 pean regiment has its canteen. 
 
 72 1 . Separate from its bazaar ? — Yes ; the building is provided at the expense 
 of Government ; after that the whole is left to the regimental officer. 
 
 7J2. How long is it since you left India r — Five years. 
 
 723. For each corps have you not separate and distinct hospitals for the 
 sick ? — For each corps there is always a separate hospital. 
 
 7 -'4. In short, as far as provision can be made, every attention is paid by the 
 Government to the health and comfort of the men ? — There is no doubt of it. 
 
 72.5. Are medical officers always attached to the corps ? — I have had a great 
 deal of experience, and there are always a number of medical officers attached ; 
 and if more are wanted for the mihtary service, they are draughted from the 
 civil stations. 
 
 726. With respect to the barracks, is there any difference made as between 
 the Company's European corps : nd the Queen's corps? — Not the slightest; 
 they change barracks (]uite indiscriminately, as they change stations. 
 
 7*^27. You stated that draughts were maile from the sappers and miners to 
 the department of Public Works ?— The Serjeants are draughted away ; that is 
 to say, more are sent from Chatham than are required with the regiment of 
 sappers and miners ; and the department of Public Work:-, requiring always 
 good men for their overseers, send to the corps of sappers and miners to get 
 their spare men. 
 
 0.10. G 2 72S. From
 
 52 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Licut.-C()l. 
 F. Abbott, c.B. 
 
 28 February 1853, 
 
 728. From whence are the 'draughts for the native corps for the sergeant- 
 majors ? — From the artillery chiefly, except sometimes from the sappers and 
 miners. 
 
 729. Do you recommend the best men in those cases as a kind of promotion ? 
 — Certainlv, as a kind of promotion to get employ. 
 
 730. You think that has a good effect upon the discipline and attention of 
 the corps r — Yes. certainly. It may deprive the regiment of a good man, but 
 its effect is <j;ood, as affording a stimulus to good conduct in the corps. 
 
 731. Can you suggest any other improvement that could be made which 
 might tend to give a stimulus to good conduct ? — No, I cannot. 
 
 732. In your opinion, every attention is paid both to the comfort and the 
 discipline of the men, and to affording a proper stimulus to good conduct ? — ■ 
 Most decidedly. 
 
 Veneris, 4" die Martii, 1853. 
 
 ^Ir. Baring. 
 Mr. H;inkfs. 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 Sir Georsie Grev. 
 SirT. H.'^Mucidock. 
 Mr.J. FitzGcral.i. 
 ]Mr. M liner Gibson. 
 .Mr. BaiUie. 
 3Ir. Mangits. 
 Mr. Merries. 
 :\lr. U. II. Clive. 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. FJIiot. 
 Sir James W. Hogsr. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 Mr. S|)Ooner. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Sir R. H. Ino-lis. 
 Mr. Edwnid'Eilice. 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 Lieut-Col. 
 W. Bur/toii, c. n. 
 
 4 March i8.-;3. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel IVilliam Burlton. c. B., called in ; and E.vamined. 
 
 753- Chairman.^ WILL you inform the Committee generally of the nature 
 of your services in India, especially field services r — I served in India about 
 .'59 years in all. I arrived in India in March 1809, anil did duty as a regimental 
 officer till 1820, during which time I was engaged in the Mahratta and Pind- 
 harrcc camiiaigns, and other small affairs, with my regiment, of which I was 
 adjutant. In the end of 1820 I was appointed lo the connnissariat department, 
 in which I remained till I came home in March 1818. During that time I was 
 employed as a connnissariat officer in the Bengal division of the army during 
 the wiiole of the Bia-mesc war in 182-1, 1825, and 1826. I was afterwards 
 api)ointed commissary-general in 18;i7. I was employed in Lord Cough's 
 army in the Cwalior camjjaign. I was also at the Sutlej with Lord Ellen- 
 borcHigli, and with the army of reserve at the time the Cabul armies were with- 
 drawn. 
 
 734. How long did you continue as commissary-general? — From January 
 J8.S7 till .March 18-iS, when I came home. 
 
 73.5. While you were commissary-general were you also a member of the 
 ^lilitary Board ? — During the last four years ; I was appointed to the Board in 
 the end of 18i;{, and took my seat in March 1844. 
 
 73G. "Will you shortly state to the Committee how the commissariat is com- 
 posed ? --They are all Furo])eaii commissioned officers; there is a commissary- 
 general, a de|)>ity commissary-general, a joint deputy commissary-general ; 
 three first-class assistants, three second-class assistants, four first-class deputy 
 as^istants, four second class deputy assistants, 1 2 sub-assistants, and warrant 
 and non-eonniiis.«ioned officers besides. 
 
 737. All taken from regimental officers? — Yes ; all taken from regiments. 
 
 /J 
 
 S. Will vou state what are the duties of the 
 
 commissariat in Bengal 
 
 in 
 time
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 53 
 
 time of peace? — They are almost innumerable; they have the feeding of all Litut.-Col. 
 the troo))s ; they have tlic ])urchase of the cattle, the fecdinii; of the cattle; ^^'- Iiur'tnn,c.B. 
 
 the provision of their Jittendants ; the making of the hosi)ital clothing, the 
 
 hospital (piilts, and providing hospital comforts of all kinds; and, in fact, 4 Mnrt-'i 1851. 
 whenever anything is recpiired the custom is to call upon the commissariat 
 officer, if there is nobody else expressly appointed for the purpose. 
 
 739. In time of war, what are their duties .' — The duties are just the same. 
 
 740. In time of war they have to jjrovide for the army in the field ?— Yes ; 
 everything in the same way as they do in cantonments. 
 
 741. Is it your opinion that, under the present system, those duties are 
 efficiently jjcrformed / — Yes, certainly ; very much so. 
 
 742. And in time of peace do you consider that they iire performed in 
 the most economical manner?— I think they are; perhaps too economicallv 
 sometimes. 
 
 743. The system is by tender for contracts, is it not r — Yes ; by contracts. 
 
 744. Those tenders for contracts are sent in to the commissary -general ? — 
 They were formerly sent in to the commissary-general in the first instance. 
 
 745. He reports upon them to the Military Board ? — He now is a member 
 of the Board himself ; they come to the Board now. 
 
 746. But the Board decides upon accepting the tender? — Yes; the Board is 
 the deciding party. The commissariat officer, in the first instance, invites 
 tenders ; he issues advertisements in all the papers, both in the English and 
 native lansiuages, that tenders will be received on a certain day ; he states the 
 conditions of the contract, and the security that will be demanded from the 
 tenderer, and announces that on a certain day they will be opened at the 
 public office. The parties send in those tenders ; they are opened, and he 
 then draws out a statement of eacli tender, stating the terms and the nature of 
 the security offered, and his recommendation upon it, and that he sends to the 
 Military Board ; the Military Board then decide entirely; the commissariat 
 officer merely i-ecommends. 
 
 747. Do they always adhere to the system of tender for contracts r — Yes. 
 There are instances where tenders are not procurable, but that is the rule. 
 
 748. Do they always take the lowest tender? — The rule was always to take the 
 lowest tender ; and it was sanctioned by the Government ; but there was con- 
 siderable discussion upon that subject some few years ago, before I came 
 away ; it was referred to the Court of Directors, and it was principallj' in con- 
 sequence of a recommendation which I made that the Court sanctioned a much 
 wider deviation from the rule, stating that it should not be the invariable rule 
 to take the lowest tender, when there were strong reasons against it. 
 
 749. Are you of opinion that the best mode of providing for the army 
 is by tender for contracts f — I think it is ; it elicits more exactly the state 
 of the market ; you are more likely to pay only a fair price, and to have the 
 best articles. 
 
 750. Would you make it a rule that there should be no deviation from tliat 
 system? — There may be circumstances to call for a deviation, but I think it is 
 the best system. 
 
 751. You have been speaking of a time of peace. In time of war do you 
 think that the agency of the commissariat has been as economical as could be 
 expected ?— Certainly, no doubt of it ; but there are very peculiar circumstances, 
 in which no officer can look to economy ; if there is an urgent demand for the 
 troops he must feed them, cost what it will ; but still, no doubt, economy is 
 the great object of every commissariat officer ; it has been constantly pressed 
 upon him, that economy is tlip great passport to the favour of Government. 
 
 752. Have the qualities of the articles thus obtained by contract always been 
 of the best sort, or have complaints occurred ? — Of course you are liable to 
 complaints ; there is no department in the world that is not liable to complaint, 
 more especially where feeding is concerned ; I suppose no gentk'man ever ke})t 
 a cook, who did not sometimes give him cause to complain of his dinner. 
 
 753. Are those complaints attended to? — They are attended to immediately. 
 When a commanding officer of a regiment finds anything bad, it is reported as 
 bad. There is a conunittee of officers appointed to examine it, and that c;om- 
 mittee either condemns the article, or reports it good ; if they report it good 
 the men are obliged to have it ; if condemned it was generally sent back innne- 
 diately, and the contractor was ordered to supply fresh. 
 
 0.16. ■ G 3 754. If
 
 54 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDE>'CE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut -Col. 
 W- Riir/ttm, c. B. 
 
 4 March 1853. 
 
 754. If the contractor fails in supplying fresh, what is done ? — He comes 
 und;r very heavv penalties ; after being; fined three times, his contract would 
 be forfeited, and all losses would be borne by him, and the necessary supplies 
 would be procured at his expense. 
 
 755. The contractor gives security ' — ^Yes. 
 
 7.',('. Can you state to what extent, with relation to the amount of his con- 
 tract, he gives security r--I think it is generally about a third or a fourth. 
 
 •j^^-j. Have there often been failures in the performance of the contracts? — 
 Considering the immense number of them, I should say very few. For many 
 very small items of supply there are separate contracts ; and taking the whole 
 number, 1 think that, comparatively speaking, the number of failures is very 
 few indeed. 
 
 7.-)8. The suppUes for the hospital are made under the same system that you 
 Imve described ? — Yes ; all tliat the commissariat does supply is done by contract. 
 
 7,-,g. Have the complaints from the hospitals been frequent r — No; I think 
 less frequent than from the barracks ; but they have better articles. The 
 contracts for hospital bread and meat are for a superior article to what is issued 
 to the barracks ; in fact the bread and meat furnished to the sick in the hospital 
 are the same that a gentleman would put on his own table. 
 
 760. The wine that is used in the hospitals is not contracted for ?— A large 
 quantity is sent out by the Court of Directors ; but when that stock runs out 
 the commissariat is called upon to supply it, and they do it by contract. 
 
 76 1 . Are the medicines contracted for r — No ; the commissariat have nothing 
 to do with the medicines ; they come from England. 
 
 762. Is brandy contracted for ?— I think it is ; but that is a very small expen- 
 diture ; it was contracted for by a European house in ( "alcutta. 
 
 71 >3. Have you heard complaints from the surgeons of the quality of the 
 articles furnished ? — Yes, now and then ; they have a committee in the same 
 way as in the barracks, and the medical officer is one of the committee ; some- 
 times it is a committee entirely of medical officers ; they give their opinion, and 
 the same process is followed as in the barracks. 
 
 7(14. With regard to the system of accounts between the comraissariat and 
 the Military Board, is that, in your opinion, the best system now? — I believe the 
 system has been a good deal altered since I came away ; when I was there the 
 commissariat officer rendered his accounts to the Military Board, and there they 
 were examined and checked. 
 
 76.5. When the commissaries send up their accounts, do they send them to 
 the commissary-general or to the Military Board? — To the Military Board. 
 
 7()6. The commissary-general has no supervision over them ? — As a member 
 of the Board they come under his supervision ; but before he became a mem- 
 ber of the Board he never saw the disl)ursements ; he mereh^ saw the accounts 
 current, showing the debits and credits every month, but he never saw tlie 
 particulars. 
 
 717. What was the practice before the commissary-general became a member 
 of the Military Board • — Tlie accounts of the disbursements, the actual details 
 of the expenditure, were forwarded direct to the Hoard ; the commissary- 
 general never saw them ; all he knew was, that every month he received from 
 the -Military Board a statement, applicable to every commissariat office, of sums 
 retrenched ; that was called an audit statement, a document containing, some- 
 times, a couple of quires of foolscap paper or more ; on the one side it was 
 " Charged " so and so, "Allowed "' so and so, " Retrenched" so and so ; on the 
 opposite side was a column for the reply of the officer ; then that came to the 
 connuissary -general, and he gave his opinion after seeing the officer's reply. 
 
 76.S. Do you think it is desirable to alter that system so as to make the 
 commissary-general responsible ? — I do not think it would be possilile to make 
 the commissary-general responsible for the accuracy of the accounts. If he 
 did, he would be cri])ple(l as an executive offico'r. I remember as far back as the 
 year 181 7 or 1818, I think when Cohmel Weguelin was the commissary-general, 
 it was desired by the Commander-in-Chief that he should acconqjany him to the 
 field, and he distinctly stated that if he did, the current accounts must stand 
 still. Th(^ Government agreed in that opinion, and he remained in Calcutta. 
 
 7(")i). Mr. EUirc] In all eases of administration of that description, are you 
 of opinion that the person who directs the expenditure should not audit the 
 exjjcnditurer -Certainly. 
 
 770. Chairma?!.^
 
 SELFXT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITOUIES. .-,5 
 
 770. Chainnan.'] Do you think that the system now adopted by the Military Luui.-Col. 
 Board of auditini; the accounts is the best that could be earned into effect " — "'• ffurliun, c. b 
 
 I do not. I think the Military Board is now so overburtlieued with the details 
 
 of other dejjartments, that it is impossible the business can be properly eon- ■* *'""*' '"SJ- 
 ducted. I think there ought to be a distinct office. 
 
 771. Will you describe generally the system under which carriage is pro- 
 vided for the baggage, tents, anununition, and food of the troops when moving 
 in the field ■ — The tents and ammunition are always carried on the pul)lic 
 cattle ; tluit is, the Government cattle. The i)rovisions, and so forth, are carrii-d 
 by hired cattle. The contractor furnishes his own carriage ; but all the 
 important articles, the tents, ammunition, and hospital stores, are carried on 
 the Government cattle. 
 
 772. It has been stated to the Committee that on some occasions the quan- 
 tity of food contracted for has not been delivered ; would there be any mode of 
 checking that?- I am not aware of the case referred to. There have been a 
 few instances where it was necessary, for a few days, to put the troops on half 
 allowance : but it was always made up to them either in coin or in kind. 
 
 773. But with regard to the cattle, it has been stated that in the Affghanistan 
 war the food for the cattle was not furnished according to the contract, and 
 that the cattle were often without food ; would there be any mode of checking 
 any dishonesty of that kind on the part of the native contractor r — There could 
 not well be dishonesty on the contractor's part in such cases. If there was a 
 want of food, it must have been from the sheer impossibility of obtaining it ; 
 otherwise the officer whose duty it was to receive it would liave noticed it. No 
 contractor ever issues food without getting a document from the officer. If 
 there was an utter impossibility of obtaining it, such as there was in the Bur- 
 mese war, when tlure was no such thing to be had sometimes as meat, the 
 men would be allowed compensation. 
 
 774. Do you think there could be any kind of European supervision applied 
 to the performance of the contracts by the natives? — 1 think not with any 
 beneficial effect. 
 
 77.5. With regard to meat, is there not a European supervision exercised ? — 
 Yes, to a certain extent. A soldier, sometimes a non-commissioned officer, 
 sometimes a private soldier, is appointed butcher serjeant ; and his duty is sup- 
 posed to be to inspect the contract cattle, and to see that no unhealthy or dis- 
 eased animals are in the stock ; and it is also his duty to attend when the cattle 
 are killed and the meat is sent out. So far there is a supervision in that one 
 article ; but my opinion is, that it has never produced any good result. I believe 
 that vigilance is very easily bought ofi" by the contractor if he wishes to do so. 
 
 776. For the purpose of carriage, part of the cattle come from the Government 
 studs and part are hired ; is not that the system ? — There are a great number 
 kept up that are called Government cattle. The larger proportion of them used 
 to be produced by the Government studs. 
 
 777. Which is the most economical system ; hiring cattle or keeping your 
 own ?- I should say that the hiring system is the most economical, because you 
 only pay for them when you want them, but in the other case you keep up 
 several thousand cattle all the year round, and they are often lying idle. 
 There is no doubt that it would be economy to have hired cattle if you could be 
 sure of always getting them when you wanted them. 
 
 775. Would there be no objection to relying entirely upon hired cattle r — I 
 do not think there would be much objection now. The subject was agitated 
 some years ago, and it was referred to me by Sir William Casement. My 
 opinion was asked upon it, and after considering it very carefully I stated tliat 
 I thought the plan of hiring would save a great deal of money ; but at that 
 time had we depended upon hired cattle we might easily have been deprived of 
 them. Such men as Runjeet Sing or the Bhurtpore Kaja might have bought 
 off the whole of the people. That 1 thought was the risk. There is not so much 
 risk now because there is no person who would be likely or able to do it ; but in 
 consequence of that, the plan was not adopted. I am told that it has been 
 adopted since I came away ; that they are trying it as an experiment at several 
 ot the large stations, and that hitherto it is supposed to work very well, and that 
 all the troops at the last reliefs in the Upper Provinces were moved entirely with 
 hired cattle. And there is no doubt it will be economical if it answers. 
 
 779. Do you suppose that there have been any impropiT pecuniary advau- 
 0.10. G4 tages
 
 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut..Col. tasjes derived from the exercise of the commissariat by any of the European 
 
 Jf'. BiirUoii, c. u. officers employed r — ^Nlost nnquestionably I should say not. I do not suppose 
 
 ~ ' ■ — there is a more upright body of men in the world than the officers of the Indian 
 
 4 March 1853. connuissariat. I remember before I entered the department (it must have been 
 
 at least 40 years ago) there was some distant suspicion flung upon one or two 
 
 of those officers. I think it was in 1811, soon after the commissariat was 
 
 established ; but from that day to this I never even heard a shadow of suspicion 
 
 cast upon the character of any one officer in that department. 
 
 780. Is it your opinion that a certain number of the voluminous vouchers 
 which exist might be dispensed with ? — Certainly ; more than half of them. I 
 have seen an officer's accounts for one month supported bv 7,000 or 8,000 
 vouchers. 
 
 781. And the accounts might be passed with more rapidity, so as to be less 
 inconvenient to the officers in the Ccmimissariat Department? — -It would save 
 them great labour and time, especially in a campaign ; now, if a man is called 
 upon to make a disbursement of the most trifling nature, he is obliged to fortify 
 himself ])eforehand by getting vouchers innumerable. 
 
 782. Does not each commissariat officer enter into money security for his 
 office ? — Yes. 
 
 7 S3. And that security is not released till his accounts are passed? — No, not 
 till he is out of the department ; the commissary-general and the deputies give 
 no security because they have no money tranactions ; they are merely super- 
 visors of the transactions of others. 
 
 7 84. Have you any suggestion to make to the Committee as to the operation 
 of the commissariat under the Military Board ? — I am told that orders have 
 been sent out to India very lately to alter the system, and if so, I think it 
 is the most beneficial thing that can be done ; that is to say, that the com- 
 missarv- general should be restoi-ed to the footing on which the commissariat 
 was 20 or 30 years ago. 
 
 78.<). Sir G. Grey^ You mean that he should not be subject to the superin- 
 tendence of the Military Board ? — Yes ; that he should be held strictly respon- 
 sible for everything that went wrong in the department, and that he sliould 
 communicate directly with the Government. "When I first entered the depart- 
 ment the commissary-general had vast responsibility thrown upon his shoulders, 
 and at the s^ame time a very considerable discretionary power of passing all 
 trifling charges ; the commissary-general then communicated direct with the 
 Government: if any commissariat officer was called upon for any trifling 
 expense, he wrote down in half margin, and submitted the case, and the com- 
 missar^•-general wrote upon the other side his opinion, either sanctioning it 
 or not ; that went back to the commissariat officer, and was a complete voucher 
 for his charge. In a similar case now, the reference would have to be sent up 
 first to the deputy commissary-general, then to the Military Board, and thence 
 perhajjs to Government ; and in the various forms that would have to be gone 
 tin-outih, ju'obably half a (juire of foolscap would be expended. 
 
 78(i. Are you aware of the causes which led to the change of system, by 
 which the commissary-general was subjected to the control of the Military 
 Board? — No, I do not reixillcrt them. 
 
 787. When a regimental officer is taken from his regiment, to be employed 
 in the commissariat service, is he permanently moved from the regiment, and 
 is the \;u'ancy filled uji, or does he remain u])on the list of the regiment r — He 
 remains uj)()n the list of the regiment; if he is promoted to be afield officer, he 
 goes back to his regiment, unless he be in the higher grades of the department 
 
 788. Are the whole of the officers emi)loyed in the commissariat service 
 withdrawn from the strength of their respective regiments ? — Yes ; they are 
 taken away from their regiments. 
 
 78(). .Mr. Elliot.] In the ordinary movement of troops, are the civil 
 servants applied to, for the ])urp()sc of assisting in getting supplies for the 
 troo|)s on their march r — Yes. If the commissariat officer cannot provide them 
 himself, he a])i)li('S for assistance. 
 
 7i)(j. In the ordinary movement of troo))S about the country, arc not the 
 civil servants frecjuently applied to r — They are ; but they ought not to be so 
 if a conunissariat officer is upon the spot." 
 
 701. To \\hat officer ordinarily is the application made? — The collector of 
 revenue. 
 
 792. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 57 
 
 792. Is the assistance given by tiic eivil servants attended with iiiueii advan- J.icut.-Col; 
 tagt; to the troops? — i do not think it is, except th;it the connnissiiriat officer fl^- Jhirliou, c. a. 
 
 sometimes cannot get supplies, and then he is obhged to have tlu^ onU-r of the " 
 
 collector for the jjurpose. A conunissariat officer may go into a villnge, and '^ March 1853. 
 may fail in getting whnt he wants, and without the order of a civil servant no 
 impressment can take j)lace. 
 
 79.3. Then, when the commissariat department is unable to procure supi)lies, 
 great advantage is derived from the interference of the civil authorities .' — 
 Certainly ; so far they assisted us in getting us wliat we wanted. The simple 
 fact is, that the commissariat officer is not allowed to press as the collector is. 
 
 794. Sir 2\ H. M(i(hh)i-li.\ But ordinarily on the marching of detachments, 
 are not ajiplications made to the civil officers giving them a list of the stages 
 where tin- troojis are to be at parti(;ular dates, and giving a list of every descrip- 
 tion of food that is required ? — Perfectly so as to food ; but I understood the 
 question to refer to cattle to carry the baggage. It is always so in marching 
 through the country ; notice is sent previously to the collectors, but that is 
 not done by the commissariat ; it is the duty of the officer commanding the 
 detachment. 
 
 79';. Mr. Elliot.'] But those supplies are provided by the civil authority? 
 —Yes. 
 
 796. Mr. Ilnmr.] Does not the civil officer generally send a jieon to see that 
 everything that they want is supplied: — I imagine that he does. 
 
 797. Sir T. H. jlladdock.] On the movement generalh^ of a regiment or a 
 detachment, in the course of relief in ordinary service, is it not the fact that 
 they are not usually attended by anj^ commissariat officer superior in grade to 
 a goniastah ? — No ; each regiment marching has a gomastah (that is, a native 
 agent) attached to it. 
 
 79 5. During those marches, are they not entirely dependent upon the civil 
 authorities for food, and for any supply of cattle that may be deficient in con- 
 sequence of deaths or casualties during tl\e march r — Yes, necessarily ; they 
 have no commissariat officer with them. 
 
 799. Mr. V. S7nith.'] I understood you to say that you were satisfied gene- 
 rally with the conduct of the contractors under the commissariat ; have 
 you ever known any instances of gross fraud by contractors ? — My impression 
 is, that they have fulfilled their contracts satisfactorily from regard to their own 
 interest, the penaltits are so heavy for a default ; they are fined, they forfeit 
 their security, and they are liable to make good any loss that occurs from their 
 default. 
 
 800. Are those securities generally enforced? — Always; there would be no 
 mercy shown them. 
 
 801. Have you had any instances of their not being enforced? — Not where 
 they ought to have been enforced. 
 
 802. Is there great competition by those contractors? — Very great. 
 
 803. Have you known them offer at prices so low as to be unremunerative, 
 and afterwards supply bad provisions to make up their emoluments ?— Yes ; 
 I think very often. 
 
 804. Then you do not consider that satisfactory ? — No ; but I am bound to 
 say that those'contractors ought not to have been accepted ; they were accepted, 
 most generally, in opposition to the recommendation of the commissariat officer. 
 
 80.5. Then when you call for tenders, is it with the reserve that the tender 
 shall not be accepted, if you consider the ])crson making it not to be a fit person 
 to make the contract with ? — The tender is submitted by the commissariat 
 officer to the Military Board ; he submits the tenders, and he says, so and so 
 is the lowest, hut I do not think him a respectable man, or a man able to fulfil 
 the contract properly, and I reconnnend so ai.d so. But tlu,- Mililary Board 
 would most probably insist ujion having the cheapest ; they have invariably 
 done so till within the last few years. 
 
 8o(). Then although you are satisfied with the conduct of the contractors, 
 you are not satisfied with the conduct of the Military Board, with leference to 
 the recommendations of the commissariat ofticers ? — Exactly so ; I think the 
 cause of the failures which have taken place is to be attributed to this, that 
 the contract has been given to a man who was not fit to take the contract. 
 
 807. What is the i)unishnicnt on the contractor when he fails to perform his 
 contract ? — They confiscate his security. 
 
 0.10. H 80S. Is
 
 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 808. Is that very heavy r — Yes, it is sometimes very heavy ; I have known 
 
 )f . Bnrlton, c. b. some secmnty as high as 1,000 /. or 2,000 /. 
 
 809. He is not subject to auv other punishment but that pecuniary fine ? — 
 
 4 March 1853. Xo, I think not. 
 
 810. Sir T. H. yiaddock.'] Have you ever known of native officers and con- 
 tractors in the ("ominissariat Department amassing very large fortunes, far be- 
 yond what they coukl legitimately obtain from their salaries: — I cannot say 
 that I have known it, because no man could tell w^hat their means were ; but 
 I have seen contractors li\iug, after they have had large contracts, in a style far 
 beyond what they had previously done ; of course I could not kuo\\ what their 
 means were. 
 
 811. Mr. Hardinge.~\ When an officer finds that he has a short allowance 
 of provisions, with whom does he lodge his application r - If they are short in 
 (juantity lu- will not take them. 
 
 812. In the field, has he many occasions of refei-euce to Calcutta? — No; 
 they do not refer points of that kind to Calcutta ; if there be a short issue of 
 ])rovisions made, he refers to the commanding officer upon the spot, and insists 
 upon having his fidl allowance. 
 
 813. Can you state what is the proportion of doolie-bearers to the fighting 
 men ? — I think it is a doolie to every 20 Europeans, that is, six men to every 
 20 ; and in the native army they have two doolies to every company. 
 
 814. What is the number of Government cattle kept upon the peace esta- 
 blishment r — I think there are about .j.OOO or 6,000 camels, and as many 
 transport train IjuUocks, and about 300 or GOO elephants : but they vary 
 according to circumstances. If there were a campaign on foot, of course 
 a great number more would be entered on the service immediately, and they 
 would take some time afterwards before they died oft'. 
 
 Si 5. When an army takes the field, what is the proportion of public cattle 
 to private cattle ■ — It depends upon the quantity of provisions you are ordered 
 to take. Directly an array is warned for the field, the commissary -general 
 receives instructions to provide provisions for so many weeks or so many uionths, 
 as may be deemed necessary. 
 
 Si 6. Can you state about what proportion the private cattle hired bear to 
 the public? — There are more hired cattle than public generally. The immense 
 quantities of grain which have to be carried requii'e very long strings of bul- 
 locks and camels. 
 
 Si 7. C;in you iufurin the Committee what is the pi'oportion of registered 
 followers as compared with the number of fighting men .' — I suppose about 
 three to one. 
 
 Si 8. .\nd how many are unregistei-ed followers? — About as many as the 
 others, if not more ; but in saying that, I have no precise data to go upon. 
 
 8iq. Mr. Hione.^ Will you explain what you mean by "registered fol- 
 lowers " ? — The registered followers are those who receive Government pay. 
 
 820. Mr. flarditif/e.] Kas there not been on many occasions great difficulty 
 in feeding ihe unregistered camp followers ? — The Governineiit do not feed 
 them. 
 
 821. But has there not been great difficulty in feeding them on different 
 expeditions? — I have never heard of nuich difficulty. They contrive to feed 
 themselves somehow or other ; but I do not know how, excei)t that they buy 
 flour from the sepoys. 
 
 8_'2. Are not the se))()ys in the habit of selling half their provisions ? — ^Yes ; 
 the Hindoo sepoys particularly are very fond of money. 
 
 523. Have the commissariat officers to pass through any examination before 
 being a[)]iointed .' — Yes ; an examination in languages, Persian, llindee, and 
 Oordoo 
 
 524. And in keeping accounts ? — Yes. 
 
 8->,-,. Do you think that steps could be taken to reduce the quantity ox 
 baggage carried with the Bengal army ? — There is a limit laid down if it could 
 be enforced. A sul)alteru officer is only allowed one camel to carry his Ijag- 
 gage, whieli is little enougli. 
 
 821). But the limit is always exceeded r — I think it is always. 
 
 827. Sir 7'. //. Miidd<irk.] Will you detail, for the information of the Com- 
 mittee, what are the establishments of the Government in Bengal which you 
 would abolisli, and. in place of them, depend upon hiring cuttle and other 
 
 things ? —
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. .59 
 
 things?— Camels and bullocks ; I am not prepared to recommend the abolition Lieut-Col. 
 of them stroniily; 1 onlv say that I tliink it would be more cconuiuical. "'• Burlion. c.^. 
 
 S_'S. Are they not expensive establishments ? — I tliink the expense of keeping ' 
 
 a camel is about three rupees a month, and a bullock about the same ; elephants '^ Marcli 1853. 
 again, cost from 30 to 10 rujiees a month. 
 
 82(). Mr. llvme.^ Must not the number of cattle to be kept by tlic ('om])any 
 in any part of India depend on the state of the country generally, and the 
 nature of the service yt u are likely to require? — There is a rule laid down by 
 the Government, which is, that troops in a frontier station shall be kept pro- 
 vided with a certain quantity of cattle, ready to move them at a given notice. 
 
 S30. And the (invt^rnment, seeing where the corps are placed, forms its own 
 judgment as to how far their services are likely to be wanted, and directs the 
 extent to which these establishments shall be maintained accordingly ? — Of 
 course. 
 
 83 1 . Sir T. 11. M(iddork.\ "^ ou would by no means abolish the establishment 
 of elejdiants \uider the Government? — No ; I would rather increase it. 
 
 S3J. Because it would not be possible at any time to obtain a great number 
 of elephants by purchase? — iNo; and they cannot be hired on any terms. 
 
 833. Mr. Hiime'\ Upon the whole, do you consider that elephants are by far 
 the most usefvd class of animals for the purpose of carriage, as the}' can be 
 moved from place to place with great ease, and the}' are always to be depended 
 upon ? — They are certainly a most efficient class for an army, because they 
 have the great advantage of being able to move in time with the troops, and 
 the European soldiers, if they are marching in hot weather, find their tents 
 arrived almost as soon as themselves, but they are very expensive. 
 
 834. Sir T. H. Mac/dock.^ Much more expensive than camels ? — Yes. 
 
 83"). Mr. IJunie.] From the immense nuadier of camels recjuired, when 
 camels are employed, and their straggling kind of march, are not elephants 
 always preferable, where they can oe had, as a protection to the baggage 
 against the attacks of cavalry? — I do not know that there would be much 
 difference in that respect. If there are horsemen bold enough to sweep off the 
 baggage, they would carry off elephants as well as camels. 
 
 8pt). Mr. AJanr/les.] Are not elephants much better in wet weather ? — Yes; 
 there is no doubt that elephant cari-iage is the finest carriage in the world ; but 
 it is extremely expensive. Upon a fair calculation one elephant will carry 
 about as much as four camels ; but the camel only costs about three rupees 
 a month, and the elephant not less perhaps than 35. The price or value of 
 the latter, also, is more than double that of four of the former. 
 
 837. Mr. Elliot.] Is not there much greater mortality among the camels 
 than among the elephants, particularly in wet weather ? — Yes, in wet weather 
 espeeiailv. 
 
 838. Mr. Hiniie.] You stated that you thought it very desirable that the 
 commissariat should return to the system of individual responsibiIit}^ Have 
 you formed a decided ojnnion as to the advantage or disadvantage of having 
 Boards at the head of the several departments, or of having individual respon- 
 sibility ? — I am quite of Bentham's ojiinion that a Board is only a screen ; I 
 woidd fix individual responsibility in every case ; I would have no Board any- 
 where, in any executive department. 
 
 839. ^ Our experience in tlie cour.'^e of a long service has led you to give that 
 as a decided opinion ? — it has, decidedly; ai the head of every department 
 I would have an individual responsible. 
 
 840. ,\.r. lll/dijard.] You stated that the Sepoys are constantly in the habit 
 of selling half their allowance of food ; is that allowance more than is necessary 
 to maintain them in a state of good bodilv strength ? — I think it is mon^ tlian 
 they would eat by themselves ; it is 2 lbs. of wheat fiour. 
 
 84 1 . Is that, in your opinion, more than a necessary allowance ( — They make 
 it so : but a medical man could answer that (|uestion better than I can. whether 
 two pounds of flour daily is more than sufficient for a man's sui)])ort. 
 
 842. Do they hoard the money which they get by selling half their allow- 
 ance, or do they expend it in something else wiiieh they like better '. — The 
 Hindoos chiefly hoard it ; the iMahomedan is a more extravagant man, and he 
 spends it. 
 
 843. Mr. II(irdin(/e.'] When the cost of the daily allowance exceeds 1.5 seers 
 the rupee, they get compensation^ — ^ es. 
 
 0.10. ' " H 2 844- ^ii*
 
 6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Lieut.-Col. S44. Sir T. H. JMaddorh.] Under what circumstances is this ration of food 
 
 W. Burlton, c.B. snpphed to them ■ — Only when they are in the field. 
 
 S45. And not when tliey are in the field if they have a hazaar ? — No. 
 
 4 March 1853. g^(j_ jj^ j^ ^jjjy jjj {.niergeneies, when the bazaar cannot supply them, that the 
 
 commissariat is called ujjon to sujiply them ? — Ves. 
 
 S47. Mr. Hiimc] The Committee are to understand that the commissariat 
 never issues rations or all<)wanf:es to the native troops, excej)! in cases when 
 they are unable to obtain sujiplies from the bazaar r — Certainly ; the native 
 troops are never ])rovisione(l by the eonunissariat, unless in cases where the 
 bazaar fails. 
 
 848. But the F.uropean troops are always provided by the commissariat ? — 
 Always ; both in cantonments and in the field. 
 
 84(). Chair ma II. '\ Woidd }ou suggest any change in the furlough system of the 
 ariuy ' — Yes. I think it would be better if officers were allowed to come home 
 twice or thrici' during their service insteail of only once ; unless you get sick 
 you cannot get away ; after taking your first furlough you may remain 20 or 
 25 years, but you are not entitled to come away unless you fall ill. 
 
 850. You think that alteration would be Ijeneficial, as well as agreeable to 
 the army r — No doubt of it ; no doubt coming home does every man good. 
 
 851. Sir T. II. Aladdor/i.] Would you allow officers to come home to lun-ope 
 on sick certificate with the same advantages with which they can now visit 
 the Cape or Australia : — It would be a very great boon to them if that 
 were granted, no doubt ; and considering that they can come to England in a 
 shorter time than they can get to the Cape or Australia, I think it would be 
 a very desirable alteration to make. 
 
 S52. Mr. Elliot.] What disadvantage would arise to the public service from 
 that change r — I do not know of any, except that it would add to the expense 
 if they got their full allowances. 
 
 8.53. Mr. H(u-dingc.'\ Would not a military officer coming home and visiting 
 the Continental armies make himself better acquainted with the details of his 
 px-ofession, and go back to India, not only better in health, but a better officer ? 
 — Unquestionably. 
 
 8.54. Consequently, if you were to give him one yeai*'s furlough after five 
 years' service, and another year's furlough after another five years' service, 
 would it not off"er great advantages to the officer, and give him opportunities of 
 imj)roving himself as an officer^ — Certainly it would. 
 
 8.',.5. Mr. El Hot.] liow would it be attended with greater expense to allow 
 the oHiccr to come home than to allow him, as at present, to go to Australia or 
 to the Cape of Good Hope r — On going to the Cape or to Australia they retain 
 their allowances ; those that come to England now lose their allowances ; if 
 tliey retained their allowances, of couise many more would come to England. 
 
 S;,6. Sir G. (• r<i/.] An officer absent on sick leave, and not coining to 
 iMigland, retains his allowances .' — He retains half his staff allowances. 
 
 8,57. If he comes to England, and he is not on sick leave, but on furlough, 
 he does not retain his allowances ? — No ; and that is tlie inducement to keep 
 officers many years hanging on, when they ought to come away for the benefit 
 of their health. 
 
 SjS. Mr. Elliot.] Is not that attended with disadvantage to the service, 
 keeping officers in the country who ought, from the state of their health, to be 
 able to leave it and to return with recruited health r — No doubt of it. 
 
 Colonel Franci.^ Spencer Ilaivkius, c.B., called in; and Examined. 
 
 Ctilonel S.V). ( 'liainnnn.] YOU have lately returned from Bengal ? — I have ; I 
 
 F. a. Haruldny, returned to luigland in December last. 
 . *■ '■ 860. What has been the length of your service in India .' — Between 30 and 
 
 .37 years. 
 
 80 1. What office did you last hold there ? — That of commissary-general. 
 8fi'j. In virtue of that office you were a member of the Military Board? — I 
 was. 
 
 8(i;;. You ha\'v heard the statement of the last witness as to the composition 
 of tlic Commissariat l)ei)artnient in India, and as to its general system ; did 
 the same system exist during the time you were commissary-general ? — Yes; 
 precisely. 
 
 864. What
 
 /rtf. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX INDIAN TERIUTOIUES. 6i 
 
 864. What experience have you liad of the workint;; of the eommisirariai in Colonel 
 
 war ? — I was for 27 years attached to the Coiuinissariat Department. 1 had F. S. H'jwk 
 the commissariat charge of the i;avah-y division, at the siej^e of Bhuilpore, in 
 
 1826. I had the entire control and maiia^^ement of th(; Connnissariat Depart- 
 
 ment in China, from 1840 to ISA'A ; and I had the supervision of the Commissa- ■*■ •^'"■'^'' '^-^-^ 
 
 riat Department in the jn'csent Burmese war, from March 18.')2 till the jjcriod of 
 
 my leaving India in Novem1)er last. As comniissary-general I was cognizant 
 
 of the proceedings of the commissariat during tiie Punjaub war, in 1848 and 
 
 1849; and I have had opportunities of knowing the system of su])plv in all 
 
 the wars in India since 18;i!). 
 
 86.5. Is it your opinion that, mider that system, the troops were amply sup- 
 plied with ])rovisions ? — In general I believe they were most amply supplied 
 with provisions, and that they were good ; there are some instances to the 
 contrary. 
 
 8')6. Was it also an econoiiiical system r — I am not so sure of the svstem 
 behig the most econcmiical, but I believe it was efficient. 
 
 867. Can you suggest any improvements in the system ? — The ordinary 
 system of se.pply during the wars since 1839, with the exception of the war 
 with China, and the whole of the Burmese wars, has been to entrust the suppiv 
 of i)rovision and cattle to an influential native of India, partly as a contractor, 
 partly as an agent. Through the activity and energy, and good faith of the 
 individual employed, the i)lan has been successfid with regard to etiiciijncy, but 
 I think it is one fraught with danger, and objectionable on many ac(!Ounts. 
 
 868. Will you state to tlie Connnittee the objections you entertain to the 
 present system / — It is making the subsistence of an army de])endent on the 
 life and good faith of a single individual, and it gives an opportunity for high 
 charges. 
 
 869. What would be the remedy which you would propose ? — The remedy 
 I would propose would be, to make the commissariat officers in charge of the 
 divisions adjacent to the field of operations use the resources of their own 
 districts, and to let the responsibility of the result rest upon the commissary- 
 general and his officers. 
 
 870. Was not there a commission appointed to inquire into the commissariat, 
 which has made a report lately r — I am aware of it ; I read the report. 
 
 871. Can you state the general nature of that report? — ^The commission have 
 suggested that the system of cash and stock accounts should be radically 
 changed ; then they propose that the superintendence and control of the com- 
 missariat should be removed from the Military Board to the commissary- 
 general with reference to the executive, and that a separate auditor-general of 
 accounts should be appointed to audit the accounts of the department. 
 
 872. Then you would abolish the supervision of the JNlilitary Board over the 
 Commissariat Department ? — The supervision of the Military Board would 
 cease over the Commissariat Department. 
 
 873. Do you think that desirable ?— I think that the transfer of the duties 
 from the Military Board would promote the efficiency of the department, and 
 prove beneftcial to the Government. 
 
 874. You concur, then, generally, in the recommendations of that report .' — 
 Generally, I do ; but there is one jiortion of the report, as to rendering accounts 
 during war, which I entirely object to. 
 
 875. What is that ? — It is proposed that each commissariat officer of a divi- 
 sion should rentier a separate account. I believe that system to be impractica- 
 ble and inexpedient on this accotnit : long before an army assembles in the 
 field, there is a large expenditure for the collection of sui)i)lies, cattle, and 
 materials of various kinds. An officer, generally most experienced in the de- 
 partment amongst the executive officers, is selected for this duty, and he is 
 obliged to expend a large sum of money and keep an account of it. If the 
 di\ ision officers were to render accounts of their separate divisions, they woidd 
 render dead accounts for which they were not responsible ; they nmst receive 
 those accounts from the officer who made all the arrangements and advances. 
 Therefore I think it is inexpedient for the division officers to render an account. 
 1 would have a separate officer in charge of thc^ accounts ; and to Iiim I would 
 entrust the rendering the accounts of the army, whilst 1 would appoint other 
 officers for the executive duties. 
 
 87(1. If I understand you rightly, the system which you would recommend 
 0.10. H 3 would
 
 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colunel -would be to throw more individual responsibility upon the commissary-general ? 
 
 F. S. Hawkins, — I would certainly have him responsible alone for the efficiency of the exten- 
 '^■^' sive duties of his department. 
 
 jviaich ]8^ '^'~' ^ i^iiiderstood you to say that you thought the present S3'stem objection- 
 
 able, because the supplies of provisions depend upon the good faith and power 
 of an individual ? —During war. 
 
 S7S. Do you mean that you would not continue the present system of con- 
 tracting by tender for everything that is required ? — There are no contracts for 
 sui)i)lies during war : there never have been ; there has been an agent appointed, 
 and that agent has purchased provisions wherever he could get them, and 
 charged the Government with the price of those provisions. 
 
 879. Has that agent been a European agent or a native agent r — A nati^'e 
 agent. 
 
 880. It is to that that you object ? — Yes. 
 
 88 1. Not to the present system of contracting by tender? — Not to the sys- 
 tem of contracting during peace. 
 
 882. Do you consider that tliei'e are too many executive departments con- 
 fided to the Military Board at present ' — I believe it is impossible for the Board 
 to perform all the duties with which they are charged ; in fact, with regard to 
 the commissariat alone, the members of the Board never see any account of 
 the disbursements at all. All that they see are the retrenchments m;ide by cer- 
 tain audi;ors of the Board, and when those retrenchments are replied to bv the 
 executive officers, they are for the first time brought before the members of 
 the Board ; therefore the accounts are in fact not jiassed by the Board, but by 
 the uncovenanted auditors ; therefore I think the Military Board are quite un- 
 equal to the commissariat duty. They are equally unequal to the duties of the 
 department of Puljlic Works, the Ordnance, and the Stud, whicli are performed 
 in the same way. 
 
 883. Will you state what the general duties of tlie Military Board are r — 
 The duties of the Military Board ai-e to superintend the Commissariat Depart- 
 ment, the Public Works, the Ordnance, and the Stud. 
 
 884. The Public Works include bridges, building barracks, and roads ? — Yes ; 
 the roads that are under the Board. I'he large public roads are in the depart- 
 ment of Public Works. 
 
 88 5. They superintend the repair of all public buildings ?— Yes ; both civil 
 and military. 
 
 88t>. Mr. Mangles.~\ And canals? — And canals. 
 
 887. C/iainnan.] Are the Committee to understand that your evidence 
 applies only to Bengal ? — To the Bengal Presidencv . 
 
 888. Are you conversant with the system adopted in the other Presidencies 
 of Madras and Bombay, as regards the relation of the commissariat with the 
 Mihtary Board? — I believe I am acquainted with it generally. 
 
 88y. Is the system the same in Bombay ? — It is veiy much the same in iiom- 
 bay, except that the commissary-general is not a member of the Board at 
 Bombay, whereas he is at Bengal. 
 
 890. !s there the; same s\stcm in Madras ?• — The commissary-Ljcneral has 
 the entire control of his department at Madras : he receives the accounts of the 
 different executive officers of divisions, and embodies them in one general 
 aceoimt of his own, which general account he submits to the auditor-general 
 and Military Board for ultimate audit ; that is, his disbursements for the troops 
 arc submitted to the auditor-general, and his disbursements on aceoimt of the 
 Ordnance and other departments, not the Commissariat, are submitted to the 
 Military Board. 
 
 8()i. Do you consider that svsteni ])referable to tlie system adopted in 
 Benu^al r — I think it is far preferable, with references to the smaller presidency 
 of -Madras; I do not think the commissary-general could compile t\w. accounts, 
 and control the executive duties of so large a charge as Bengal. 
 
 S()2. With ri'gard to the department of Pul)lic Works, there has been a com- 
 mission which has made a report upon that subject : does it recommend that 
 the Public Works should be removed from the sujx'rvision of tlie Military 
 Board? — I am aware that a commission has sat, and that they have recom- 
 mended the removal of the Public Works from the control of the Military Board. 
 
 S<i;. Do you concur in that recommendation? — I do most decidedly concur 
 in that reconmiendation. 
 
 894. With
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERIUTORIES. Cj 
 
 894. With regard to the Ordnance, which is likewise under the Military Colonel 
 
 Board, wliat would you reconnncnd .' — I would suggest its removal also, and F. S. Hau>Unt, 
 that it should he placed under a sejKirate ofiieer. c v.. 
 
 89.-,. Then what would heconie of the Military 15oard ' — The Stud Department 
 
 would remain under its control; hut that might also he removed, and then the ■' ^'^^^^ ^^53- 
 Board naght he al)olishcd. 
 
 896. NV'ould there he any inconvenience from the aholition of the Military 
 Board, as a Board ?— The departments under the Military Board have each 
 their separate secretary, with the exception of the Stud ; the}- all have their 
 separate offices, and the proceeilings of all are recorded se])arately; therefore I 
 conceive that there would he neither detriment to the pul)lic service nor diffi 
 culty in at once removing thein, with offices and secretaries, to other control. 
 
 897. It has been suggested to the ("ommittee by one of the previous witnesses, 
 that in order to ensure the proper supply of provender for the cattle during the 
 war, and its being really given to the cattle, it would be desirable to have the 
 supervision of some European officers. Do you think that that could be done ? 
 — There are a number of cattle Serjeants, appointed for the express purj)ose of 
 supervising the food given to the pidjlic cattle. The contract cattle, the owners 
 of course feed themselves ; the connnissariat have nothing to do with them ; 
 but I think \ipon all occasions, when there are too many for the cattle Serjeants 
 to sui)ervise, any assistance of that kind by trustworthy Europeans, officers or 
 privates, would be very useful. 
 
 8gS. Are you aware whether it has often occurred that the cattle have not 
 been properly fed ? — When the cattle have been marching without the super- 
 intendence of European officers, under native gomastahs they have very often 
 reached their destination thin and impoverished ; and there is very little doubt 
 that they have not received the regular food which has been allotted to them, 
 and which they ought to have got. There have been various instances in which 
 the commissariat cattle attendants have been discharged, on the condition of 
 the cattle being found to be bad. 
 
 899. As a general matter, is not the inspection of the food, and the duty of 
 seeing that it is given regularly to the cattle, more under tlie control of the 
 officers of the corps than of the Commissariat Department r — It is very difficult, 
 and in fact impossible, for the commissariat officer to superintend the distribu- 
 tion of the food which ought to be gi\ en to the cattle of each corps. I think 
 it would be a ver}' great improvement if the cjuartermaster, or an)' other officer 
 of the corps, were to see the cattle fed and cleaned every day. 
 
 goo. From your great and recent experience, have you any further suggestions 
 which you would desire to make to the Committee .' — The inquiry offers so wide 
 a field, that I am afraid I could not communicate them to the Committee with 
 sufficient briefness ; but I would advocate an entire change in the constitution 
 of the department ; I would gradually remove all commissioned officers from its 
 ranks, and form it on the model of the British commissariat. 
 
 ()(i 1 . Have you any improvements to suggest in the ("ommissariat Department r 
 — I believe that one of the greatest present improvements that could be made 
 would be to transfer it from the control of the Military Board to the commissary- 
 general, and he would regulate whatever is necessary. 
 
 ijo-2. Mr. Ma)i(//e.s.'\ Is not that contemplated? — A committee have recom- 
 mended it ; l)ut whether that recommendation "ill be adopted, I do not know. 
 
 903. Sir ,/. Hogtj.'] You have adverted to the Commissariat Commission ; was 
 that a connnission appointed in 1851 by Lord Dalhousie, to inquire into and 
 report upon the system of the army commissariat? — It was. 
 
 1)04. Will you state how that commission was constituted ; of what members 
 did it consist ? — Mr. Allen, a civilian, was the president of that commission, 
 and Colonel Sturt and Major Anderson, two military officers, were its other 
 .members. 
 
 qo',. How many members were there altogether ? — Three; one civilian and 
 two military men. 
 
 Qoli. You said that you had read the report of that commission ; can you 
 state what was the opinion of that commission with respect to the integrity of 
 the commissioned officers of the commissariat establishment .'-—The commission 
 stated that the whole of their inquiries had led them to l)e certain that the 
 integrity of all the connnissariat officers was uncpiestioned ; that there was no 
 instance of any commissariat officer having, in any way, committed himself. 
 
 0,10. H 4 907. Will
 
 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Ciiloncl 1107. ^Vill you state the rules under which iniUtary officers are appointed to 
 
 7-'. s. IJmikins, j^|jp comniissaviat ? — I have the rules with nie, and will give them to the Com- 
 
 '^' "■ niittee, if I may he allowed to do so. 
 
 "T. , g.. 908. Mr. Ilio/ie.] Will you state them generally? — Candidates are, first of all, to 
 
 l)e examined ;is to the mode of prei)aring the accounts of the department; they 
 must have passed an examination in the native languages, and must he ahle to 
 draw out accounts current, and disbursement accounts, Avith their own hands ; 
 they must know the regulations oi"th<' dep;n-tment, and the regulations of the 
 arm)- generally ; they must be acquainted with arithmetic and mensuration, 
 and be able to compute the value of solids and fluids, and their dimensions ; 
 these are the general inquiries that are made of them. 
 
 909. Sir T. H. M(nldoc/t.'\ What was the date of those regulations: — I think 
 they were in 1851 ; I will hand in a copy of them. 
 
 [_Th'j same was deVwered in, and read us followa :^ 
 
 MUMOKAN DUM. 
 
 Thl: qualifications of officers for appointiDent to the Commissariat Department, are as 
 follow : — 
 
 111 Native LaiKjuages. 
 
 To iiass a literary tc'st in Hindustani. 
 
 To be able to read and write Persian with facility. 
 
 To have a colloquial knowledge of the Oordoo and Hindooee. 
 
 In Accounts. 
 
 To pass an examination in vulgar and decimal fractions; involution and evolution ; in 
 mensuration, and the computation of areas and solid contents ; and the system of book- 
 keeping by single and double entry. 
 
 All appointments are probationary for twelve months; at the expiration of that period 
 the officers aie required to undergo a sec^ond examination on the fdlouing points: — 
 
 1st. On his acquaintance witii his resjjonsibility and duties in the care and custody of 
 the public cuttle and siores under liis charge. 
 
 2d. On his knowledge of the system of procuring supplies by departmental agency or 
 contract, as cncnmstances may require, and the rules affecung the preparation of contract- 
 deeds, and the liability of contractors. 
 
 3d. On his acquaintance with the mode of rationing European troops, and ihc different 
 articles comprising their rations. 
 
 4th. On his acquaintance with the mode of rationing native uoops, and the circumstance.'* 
 under which rations are issued to ihem. 
 
 5th. On his knowledge of departmental rnle>, and ol the forms of returns furnished 
 pel ioilically to the heads of his de|>arunent. 
 
 (ith. On lli^ ability to draw up witli accuracy estimate.* and average statements of the 
 cost of victualling troops and fueding cattle. 
 
 7th. On his knowledge of the equipments of cattle and stores re(|uired for the cavalry, 
 artillery and infantry, with reference to their numbers and the distance to be marched. 
 
 «th. On his facility in reading gomastahs' accounts, as presented in Persian or Hindee, 
 and in writing perwannahs in the above languages. 
 
 Dth. On his ability to prepare monthly disbursemenis from the checked accounts of 
 native agents with an aci ount current, ami his knowledge of tlie vouchers retj^uired 10 
 support the chnrgts under the difi'erent heads of cx|)enditure. 
 
 lOlh. Tiie extent to wliich the ]irobationer is conversant with tlie general system of 
 accounts in the Commissariat Department. 
 
 910. Sir J. Hofjrj.] Both the Commission.s to which you adverted, the Com- 
 mission which sat to eiKiuire into tlie Commissariat, and that upon the Fublic 
 Works, have made their reports ? — They have both sent in their reports. 
 
 911. Are you aware whether any instructions have been sent out generally 
 to carry into execution the recoiiimcndations of both those Commissions? — No, 
 1 am not aware; I have heard that tlie rcconnnendations of that Commission in 
 the department of l^ublic Works have been adopted, but when I left India I do 
 not believe any orders regarding the commissariat had arrived. 
 
 912. The recommendatioDi had not been carried into e.\e(;ution .- -No, they 
 had not. 
 
 913. Vou
 
 SELECT COMMITTi:!-: OX INDIAN TERRITORIES. 6.1 
 
 913. You have stated thut instructions were sent out by the Court of Directors Colonel 
 with regard to the acceptance of contracts for the connuissariat supply of tlic /••. .s. Hawkins, 
 army? — The orders of the C'ourt were, that efficiency was to be; thi^ priii{-ip;il «.■. b. 
 
 object in the acceptance of contracts, that the food and other sup])Ues shouhl \n- 
 
 good, and that chcai)ncss was to be a secondary consideration ; 1 have also got 4 Marcit iSs.-j. 
 a copy of the orders of the Court of Directors regarding the contracts, which 1 
 
 can dehver in. 
 
 \_'llie same ivas delivered hi, <tnd read us fulluws :] 
 Extract Military letter to IJengul, <l;ited ;>9 Dfcember 1840, No. 98. 
 
 LiiTTi:K (iom, dated 13 May 1848, No. 80, 
 
 -24. We approve of llie notice taken by you of this subject, and also of 7,, ,^„j ^., Exphmation by the Miiitir, 
 the intimation made by you to the Medical Board, that, as a general rule, Huard of irrcRularity in the acceptance of a 
 the lowest oftVr that "is acx-onipanicd by saiisfaetory security should be t, ..Jcr for the supplv of bread to th. Euro- 
 , . , . , ' 1 ■ 1 .1 ^- '4. puun troops olationuU at JuUunaer. 
 
 accepted, with exception to casts in which tlie executive coniuussariat 
 
 officer may adduce good and rtasoiiable objections a^aillst the securities or against the 
 
 orter itself. 
 
 25. The great object of securing bread of the best quidity for the troops should not be 
 hiiZiirded by the acceptance of (siideis which it is known by the local officers cannot be 
 properly fiilfiilcd ; as, for instance, at Cawnpore in the year 184G, when soojee bread was 
 contracled for at 30 loaves the rupee, althougli the current rate was IG lo;ives the rupee. 
 
 20.* Upon tiiis siibjed we again quote the following extract fiom your coiuiiiunication • sec Military Lcttor, 
 to the MiiiiMiy Bourd," dated 2.>"August 184:J. ' \-* Ma.v 184.-.,' .Vo. 4'J, 
 
 " In one point the Governor-general in Council lully concurs with your Board and with 
 the Comniissaiy-gemrai in consideriiig it indispensable that really good food for the soldier 
 should be procured ; and that there is no object fo be gained in provisioning him at a rate 
 lovve:' than is covered by the stop[)age from his pay-" 
 
 27. On the contrary, it has been frequently observed that there is a disadviuiiage in the 
 rale being less, so as to allow of balances being due to the soldiers. In one of the docu- 
 ments amongst tlic (lapeis now before us, the major-general in command of the Cawnpore 
 division (Sir H. Sirsiih) oljserves, that compensation is an evil to the morals of the soldier 
 and to discipline, and that " ue want no compensation; we want good and wholesome 
 food." 
 
 914. Sir G. Grei/.~\ What was the date of those orders ? — 1848. 
 
 915. Since the year 1848 have those rules been adopted in accepting ten- 
 ders ? — The)' have not been precisely the rules adopted, because it is there said 
 that the lowest tenders should be rejected if the commissariat officer gave 
 sufficient grounds for their rejection ; now the grounds which the commissaridt 
 officers have given have been repeatedly thought not to be sufficient, and the 
 tenders have been accepted, and the contracts have very often failed in eon- 
 sequence. 
 
 91(3. In point of fact, since those directions were given by the Court of 
 Directors in 1848, has an essentially different system been adopted with respect 
 to the acceptance of tenders, or not ? — I think an essentially different system 
 has not been adopted ; but I believe that to be attributable to the Military 
 Board. 
 
 917. Mr. Hardivge.'\ What system of audit is recommended? — A separate 
 autlitor-general to audit the commissariat accounts especially. 
 
 918. Chairman.] Have there been any great number of complaints as to the 
 tpudity of the jjrovisions furnished to the army during time of peace ? — Yes, 
 they have very often complained that the contractors have not acted up to their 
 contracts ; there is a certain quaUt}- of provisions to be given ; for instance, 
 in meat, the best grass-fed bullocks; and in bread, the best that can be pro- 
 cured, made of soojee, which is the heart of the wheat. 
 
 919. Were those complaints in general, in your opinion, well founded, or 
 not ? — A great number have been very well founded, and the contractors have 
 lost their contracts, and their security has been forfeited on account of those 
 complaints. 
 
 920. Have many contracts have beeti forfeited during your period of servicer — 
 There have been a great number ; but whether a great number in proi)ortion to 
 the whole number of contracts that have existed I cannot say, but I sujipose 
 that three or four of the bread and meat contractors in the different divisions 
 have annually failed, and the securities have been forfeited, 
 
 0.10, ' I 921. That
 
 66 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel 
 F. S. Ilavildns, 
 
 C. B. 
 
 4 March 1853. 
 
 921. Tliat is not a great proportion, relatively, to the number of annual 
 contracts ? — No, it is not a j^reat proportion. 
 
 922. Sir R. H. JnijJis.] To what chiss of the troops do you supply grass-fed 
 bullocks? — To the Eurojiean troops. 
 
 923. Had not your ]n'evious answers reference to the native soldiers? — No; 
 I was not aware that the native soldiers were the subject of inquiry. 
 
 924. Cluiinnnn.'] With regard to the liospital supplies, is it your opinion that 
 the contracts have been well executed? — I believe the hospital contracts have 
 been carefully attended to ; the hospital supplies are small in quantity, and 
 they have generally been good, and no complaints have been made of them. 
 
 925. Mr. Hardhiffe.] Are the canteens under the connnissariat ? — The 
 canteens are not at all under the commissariat ; they are under regimental 
 control. 
 
 926. How are they supplied ?- The canteens have always been supplied 
 with malt liquoi*, and every l)everage, with the exception of rum, by means of 
 their own agency ; but for rum they indent upon the commissariat, and for 
 nothing else now. Before I left there were orders from the Court for the 
 commissariat to supply beer and porter to the canteens, in hogsheads, but that 
 had not come into general operation when I left India ; but the canteens wrill 
 be supplied in future with both porter and beer by the commissariat. 
 
 927. When did that order come out ? — Last year. 
 
 928. Sir T. II. Maddock.~] Are those rules which you have given in, with 
 respect to the examination of officers who desire to be appointed in the com- 
 missariat department, now in force ? — They are strictly enforced ; an officer is 
 appointed on probation, and at the end of the twelvemonth he is examined as 
 required by those rules. 
 
 929. How long have those rules of qualification been enforced? — About a 
 twelvemonth. 
 
 930. Who are the persons who have to examine and report upon the qualifi- 
 cations of the individuals ? — Generally the senior civil officer of the station 
 where they are examined, the superintendent of Public Works, and either a 
 deputy commissary-general, or another experienced commissariat officer. 
 
 931. Do you suppose that those two officers, the civil officer and the mili- 
 tary officer, are themselves perfectly competent to test all that is required of 
 the conimissariat officer by those rules ? — I think the collective committee 
 ought to be fully qualified to test the officer in his examination. 
 
 932. Mr. Ilunic] With respect to those who are selected for the higher 
 offices, is there any care taken to see that they are well acquainted with the 
 native languages r — All the officers appointed to the department for many years 
 past, since 1834 or 1835, have been obliged to undergo an interpreter's examina- 
 tion as to their knowledge of the languages. 
 
 933. Do you consider that the knowledge which the officers have possessed 
 of the collocptial language has been sufficient for the service .' — Certainly, as 
 regards all those who have undergone the test of examination. 
 
 934. If the regulations, of which you have given in a cojjy, are carried out, 
 is it not your opinion that that would be amply sufficient to j)rovide for the ser- 
 vice? — It would add greatly to its e^iiciency. 
 
 935. Sir J. IIo(j(j.~\ You mentioned that in future the canteens in Bengal 
 will be sujjplied with jjorter and ale by the commissariat ; is it not the fact that 
 for many years porter and ale have been very extensively used by the troops 
 at Madras and Bombay, and with great success ? — I believe they have. 
 
 (j3(j. Sir T. II. Aldddoclc] With reference to tlie former answer which you 
 gave concerning the i!Xpediency of having a European to superintend the 
 feeding of the cattle during a march, is it not comi)etent for any officer com- 
 manding, wliether eonuuanding a regiment or commanding a detachment, to 
 order any officer subordinate to him to superintend the feeding? — It has not 
 been the ])ractice, but it is within his authority to do so, undoubtedly. 
 
 937. The commissariat authorit}-, the gomastah, would be entirely subordinate 
 to him ; he could not resist his authority? — Unquestionably. 
 
 938. Then the responsibility nmst rest, in a great degree, with the command- 
 ing officer of the regiment or the detachment ? — It ought to I'est with the com- 
 manding officers, but it has not been the jiractice for them to issue such orders, 
 nor have they been called on, except when the cattle have proved deficient 
 either in condition or strength. 
 
 939. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. (iy 
 
 939. Mr. ALnif/les.] Is there not a standing rule that the quartermaster of 
 every corps is bound to look after the feeding of the cattle ? — No ; I am not 
 aware of any such rule. 
 
 040. I\ir. Elliot.'] I undeistood \ou to say that you would recommend the 
 native agent, who is the person now entrusted with i)roviding the general 
 supplies in war, to be discontinued '. — I wouhl not entriist the general supplies 
 
 of an arniv to a single man. 
 
 Q41. Will you have the goodness to state what you would substitute in 
 place of that general agent r — I would make the officers of the cominissariat 
 responsible ; they should use their own means, and the resources of their own 
 divisions for the supply. 
 
 ()42. Mr. ITvme.'] You woidd prefer Eur()))ean responsibility, in every case 
 where it can be available, to native respoiisil)ility r — Certainly. 
 
 ()43. Sir R. H. Itu/lis.] To what extent had the earlier part of your examina- 
 tion reference to the supply of native troops -— In field operations the supplies 
 for the native troops are always laid in, but they are never used ludess they are 
 required by the natives ; if they can get supplies elsewhere they do not come 
 upon the commissariat for them ; the native troops have not rations supplied to 
 them by the commissariat as the European troops have ; they only come upon 
 the department when necessity requires them to do so. 
 
 944. ]Mr. Hume.'] Is not the rule this, that each corps has its bazaar for the 
 supply of the native troops, and provisions are kept in store under the com- 
 missariat, in case they should be required, but are never issued to the native 
 troops till it appears to the commanding officer that the bazaar cannot supply 
 them r — There are both suddur bazaars and regimental bazaars with an army 
 in the field : if they can supply the troops they go to them, because the com- 
 missariat supply at certain fixed rates ; if those rates are dearer than the 
 bazaar they never come upon the department for supplies ; if they are cheaper 
 than the bazaar, then they come upon the department. 
 
 Colonel 
 c. r.. 
 
 4 March 1853. 
 
 Lunce, 7° die Martii, 1853. 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 Sir James W. Ho2g. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 SirT. 11. Maddock. 
 Mr. J. FitzGerald. 
 Sir Cliario Wood. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Sir George Grey. 
 Mr. Edward Eliice. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Mr. S])ooner. 
 Mi-. Lowe. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 Viscount Jocelyn. 
 Mr. Mdner Gibson. 
 Mr. Baillie. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 James Cosmo Melvill, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 945. Chairman.] IN what department of the India House is the busmess j. c. Mehiil, Esq 
 
 connected with the Indian navy, and other marine establishments of India, 
 
 conducted? — In a separate branch of the Secretary's office, under the denomi- 7 March 1853. 
 nation of the Marine Branch. 
 
 946. Can you furnish information to the Committee to elucidate the origin 
 of the Indian navy ? — Tl;e rise of the Indian navy may be said to be almost 
 coeval with that of the East India Company. In their earliest connexion with 
 India they found it necessary to arm their mercantile shij)S for the purposes of 
 protection ; and as soon as any factories were established in India some of 
 those ships were left to protect the factories against attacks of the Dutch and 
 Portuguese, native states and piratical hordes. Early in the 1 7th century, the 
 Company, perceiving the inconvenience of so employing their mercantile ships, 
 obtained the services of a large number of gun-boats, and from that moment they 
 
 0.10. 
 
 I 2 
 
 have
 
 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C. Mehill, Esq. have maintained a naval force on the western shores of India. This force has 
 7~M h~i been altered and improved at various periods, and its present state of efficiency 
 may be mainly ascribc^d to a code of law framed by the Legislative Council of 
 India, since I80I, under the authority of an Act of Parliament. 
 
 947. Has that corps always been under martial law .- — In the early charters 
 from the Crown to the East India Comjiany, es))ecially in that by which Bombay 
 W'as "granted, a clause was introduced authorising; the Company to maintain 
 martial law in all their forces ; and it was considered, generally, that under that 
 authoi-itv the Companv had power to administer that description of law. In 1807, 
 Jiowever, serious doubts arose as to the validity of the jjower, in consequence 
 of a seaman having deserted fi-oin the Bombay marine : a considerable arrear 
 of wages was due to him, and of course, if martial law were in force, he forfeited 
 the whole ; he, however, was differently advised, and brought his action against 
 the Company in the Recorder's Court. Sir James Mackintosh, then Recorder, 
 declared from the bench that the powers claimed by the Company, under their 
 charter, were too general for practical purposes, and consequently the man 
 obtained his cause : and from that time desertions were frequent, and confusion 
 arose, the marines being subject to the Army Mutiny Act, and the sailors con- 
 sidering themselves exempt. Years passed in fruitless attempts to obtain a 
 remedy for this state of things, initil, in the year 1827, it was suggested to place 
 the Indian navy under the operation of the Army Mutiny Act, and to enlist the 
 officers into a marine corps, giving the suj)erintendent a commission as major- 
 general. It was, at the same time, suggested that some officer should be placed 
 at the head of the corps who was accustomed to the administration of martial 
 law in the navy ; and with that view it was agreed b)" the East India Company 
 that in future the superintendent should be a captain in the Royal na'sy. The 
 application of the Army Mutiny Act to the navy was found to be exceedingly 
 inconvenient, especially in the constitution of courts martial : and at last, in the 
 year 1844, an Act of Parliament was passed, authorising the Legislative Council 
 of India to frame a code of naval law. That code was sent home for the pre- 
 vious approbation of the authorities in this country, and their approbation being 
 given it was finally passed, and forms the law under which the corps i"^ now 
 administered. 
 
 ()4.S. \\ hat is the present constitution of the corps ? — That of a military body 
 for naval jiurposes, with a defined code, similar to the code in force in the 
 Roval navy, subject to the orders of the local government and of the Govern- 
 ment of India ; under the command of an officer of the Royal navy, designated 
 " Superintendent," which was the old title of the controlling officer of the corps, 
 and designated also " Connnander-in-Chiof," for which pur})Ose he receives a 
 commission from the Court of Directors and from the local government : he is 
 also a commodore of the first class, under the sanction of the Lords of the 
 Admiralty, who gave him permission to use a broad pennant for that ])urpose. 
 
 (| 49. Im mentioning the " Local (Jovernment," you mean the Government of 
 Bombay ? — I mean the Government of Bombay ; all acts of the Government of 
 Bombiiy, as respe( ts this corps, being subject to the control of the general 
 Government of India, or the (Jourt of Directors. 
 
 950. Are the ships usually built entirely in India ? — Not always ; the Com- 
 ])any ha\e occasionally built in England. I think they have built as many in 
 the one country as in the other. 
 
 9.''ii. Which is found the most economical system r — Opinions vary with re- 
 •speet to that : the rate of building is supposed not to be higher af Bombay than in 
 Knghuul ; but upon the whole I am disposed to think that building at Bombay 
 is the most economical, the vessels built there lasting so much longer than 
 vessels built in England. 
 
 ()^y-2. The vessels are built of teak? — They are built of teak; and I believe 
 they are very well built ; and generally speaking, they have the character of 
 being much more durable than vessels built in England. 
 
 t);).]. Are any iron vessels built there r — There are iron vessels, not used for 
 sea j)urposes, belonging to the Indian navy, and used in an important part of 
 the service eonnnitted to that corps, the occupation and navigation of the River 
 Indus; l)ut these vessels are i)uilt in England. 
 
 954. Have the officers of the Indian navy any relative rank with the officers 
 of the army or of the Royal navy ?— They have now ; formerly the Court of 
 Directors gave to the naval officers relative rank with the officers in the Com- 
 pany's 
 
 I
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIKS. 6g 
 
 p.'iny's army, and that was inaintaiiicd until tlic military arran>i:('Mi(rnts of 1/90, J . C. Melvil/, Etu. 
 
 under \vlii(;h llic officers in the Company's army got conuuissions from the. 
 
 Crown as well as from the Company, anil as soon as that was the caso; the ' -'•'"■c'' 1853- 
 
 C()nii)anv"s commissions to their naval officers came to be disputed in (picstions 
 
 of relative rank, and in that state the matter remained until the year 1827, when 
 
 William the Fourth, then Duke of Clarence, and Lord High Admiral, granted a 
 
 warrant defining the relative rank of the officers of the Indian navy with officers 
 
 of the Royal navy ; and under that warrant the Company's officers get a relative 
 
 rank, upon the condition, that the Company's officers of each grade rank next 
 
 after the lowest officer on the list of the same grade in the R(>yal navy. 
 
 ()55. Are you awan; whether there is an}' fi'cling of jealousy on the part of 
 officers of the Indian navy on accoinit of the position of officers of the Royal 
 navy .'---Occasionally there may be a little feeling; but that arrangement was 
 justitied at the time upon the ground that as most of the officers of the Roval 
 navy employed in India are low down in the list, rank according to date of 
 commission would have had the effect of placing the Royal olhcers always 
 under the Company's. 
 
 956. Will 3 ou specify the services that are performed by the Indian navy r 
 — War service whenever required, the transport of troops and stores, the 
 navigation of the Indus, the suppression of piracy, surveying, and the mail 
 communication between Bombay and Aden and Suez. 
 
 057. Is the force at present maintained sufficient to perform those services? 
 — I tliink it is. There is a little apprehension just now that the mail com- 
 munication may be partially interrupted in consequence of a large portion of 
 the force being employed in Ava ; but two vessels of size and capacity have 
 been ordered to be built, and they are in a very forward state at Bombay ; 
 as soon as they are complete, all apprehension will cease. 
 
 9.58. AVill you state of vvhat force the Indian navy is composed ? — A 
 receiving ship, two sloops of war, six brigs, 13 steam frigates, 12 iron vessels 
 used for the Indus, two cutters, and two pattamars or native craft. The 
 Committee will find a statement of the force in page 429 of the Appendix of 
 last year. 
 
 9.59. Is that distinct from what is called the Bengal Marine Force : — 
 Entirely distinct. 
 
 qCo. Will you state what is the total expense of the Indian navy r— 
 A Return of it has been laid before the Committee, from which it will appear 
 that, taking the average of the last five years, the gross annual expense of 
 the Indian navy has been 376,180/., that being the expense incurred both in 
 India and in England. 
 
 gbi. Sir T. H. Moddock.'] Including- the dock-yards and buildings r — 
 Including the whole. Against that thei-e is an average receipt of 62,145/., 
 principally for passage-money in the vessels used as packets, making the net 
 annual expenditure 314,035/., and that is still exclusive of 50,000/. a year 
 allowed by Her Majesty's Government in aid of the expense of steam com- 
 munication between Bombay and Suez. 
 
 962. Mr. Hume.'] To what does that bring down the net expense I — It brings 
 down the net expense to 260,000 /. 
 
 063. Chairman.^ There is a naval force also in Bengal ; what is the extent 
 of that ? — That force consists of nine steam vessels for external service, and 
 seven iron steam vessels, with eight accommodation boats for internal naviga- 
 tion ; that is quite irrespective of what is called the '-pilot service" in Bengal. 
 
 964. Is that under martial law in the same way as the Indian navy i' — No, 
 it is not. 
 
 965. Is it under mercantile law r— There is no distinct law applicable to it ; 
 whenever those vessels are employed in war service, as they have- been, I ;ipi)re- 
 hend they get either a temporary commission from the naval commancler-hi- 
 jchief under' whom they are about to serve, or letters of marque, and in that 
 way they become subject to martial law ; I have no doubt that they are prac- 
 tically under martial law when they are employed conjointly with tlu^ Royal navy. 
 
 gOD. Viscount Jocehjn.] In the China war there were some .steamers that 
 came from the Calcutta force ; were not those steamers under martial law - — 
 I have no doubt they were, either by a temporary coaunission, or by letters of 
 marque; Captahi Hall, who commanded the "Nemesis," and who is waiting 
 the pleasure of the Committee, will be able to explain it. 
 
 0.10. I 3 9^7- niairmaii.\
 
 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 /. c. Melvill, Esq. 967. Chairman.^ You said that a portion of the vessels were for external 
 
 — — service. Avhat do vou mean ])v external service ? — I mean for comramiicaiion 
 
 7 Marc 1 1 j3. i^pj-^-ppj^ Calcutta and the Burmese and Tennasserim Provinces, and between 
 Calcutta and Singapore and the Straits, and any service beyond. It has been 
 thoug-ht necessarv tliat the Government of India should have some force of that 
 description at its immediate disposal. 
 
 p()8. Are those vessels sometimes lent to the British Government ? — Yes ; 
 five vessels belonging to the Bengal force were lent to the British Government 
 for service in China. 
 
 QGg. For that service the British Government paid : — They did ; it is an item 
 in the Cliina account. 
 
 070. ;Mr. ( 'ob(lcu.~\ Was that during the war with China ? — Yes. 
 
 1)71. Chairman.] At what expense is that Bengal force maintained? — The 
 gross exjiense of the Bengal steam force, including that maintained both for 
 internal and for external navigation, has been on the average of the last five 
 years 82,240 /. a year. There has been a receipt in the same time, indepen- 
 dentlv of the sum credited to the Company by Her Majesty's Government in the 
 China account, of 20, 76U/. a year, therefore the net charge is ()i,480^. per 
 annum. 
 
 972. From what source is that receipt derived? — For freight and passage- 
 money in the vessels employed on the Ganges. 
 
 973. You stated that the Indian navy is under the orders and control of the 
 local government of Bombay, subject to the orders of the general government : 
 under what orders is the Bengal portion of the navy ? — Under the orders of 
 the Government of India. 
 
 974. Would there be any difficulty or objection to amalgamating the two 
 services ? — Tlie Court of Directors have repeatedly urged upon the Govern- 
 ment of India to make an arrangement by which all vessels employed in 
 Beni^al shouhl be commissioned as part of the Indian navy ; but objections 
 from tinu' to time have been suggested, iind difficulties which it has been found 
 impracticable to surmount. Very recently a suggestion has been made to 
 Lord Dalhousie by the superintendent of the marine in Bengal, proposing to 
 amalgamate the force of Bengal with that of Bombay ; and Lord Dalhousie has 
 said that he considers it worth being considered, and that ho only abstains from 
 pronouncing a final opinion upon it pending the present operations in Burraah. 
 
 97.5. Do the officers of the Bengal navy take the same rank as those of the 
 Indian navy ? — No^ they have no defined rank. 
 
 o-G. You have stated the origin of the Indian navy; will you state the 
 origin of the Bengal marine ? — F'roui time to time the Bengal Government have 
 required the services of a naval force, and especially after the first Burmese 
 war the necessity of it became more apparent. I can give no other account 
 of its origin, except that it seems to have been the result of accident and 
 necessity. 
 
 977. Sir 7\ //. 3/fff/rfflc^-.] . Were there any vessels maintained previously to 
 the Burmese war in 1825 ? — Yes ; I think there were. The " Diana " belonged 
 to the Bengal Government, and was sent for service in the first Burmese war. 
 
 978. Cli(uri/uni.~\ Wliat course is jjursued in procuring those ships; are 
 they built by the Company, or purchased by the Company, or how are they 
 procured ? — The " Nemesis," ami tliose other ships of considerable capacity, 
 and drawing a small draught of water, which ))erformed such important service 
 in China, were all built in this countr}', under the orders of the Secret 
 Committee. 
 
 979. The accounts of the navy are kept in England r — The accounts are all 
 kept and audited at Bombay. The marine expenditure is shown in the abstract 
 of the accounts that are sent to this country ; but the details are all at 
 Bombay. 
 
 gSo. Is the same course pursued with regard to the Bengal navy at Calcutta? 
 — Yes, precisely. 
 
 9S1. Sir y. II. M(((hlocl,\~\ At the period when the Court of Directors gave 
 orders for building tlie " I'luto,' the '' Nemesis," and four other vessels of the 
 same description, which was shortly previously to the commencement of the 
 Chinese war, were they not bnilt entirely for the purpose of establishing steam 
 communication along the Euphrates and the Persian Gulf? — They were built 
 for general political service, and were under the orders of the Secret Committee. 
 
 982. They
 
 SELECT CO:\niITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 71 
 
 982. They were built ])reviously to the breaking out of the Chinese war .' — J. C.MehUi, Esq. 
 They were ; being ready at the time the Chinese war occurred, instead of i)eing ~ — r^~, 
 
 sent to Calcutta as had been intended, the}' were diverted and sent to China. ^ ' ''•'■ 
 
 qS;]. Sir G. Grcij.'] How are those ships officered r — Tiiose four vessels 
 which I have particularised were officered in England. The Court of Directors 
 selected officers of tlie Royal Navy to take charge of them, and they eoutinvied 
 in charge for a considerable period. Tlie other Bengal vessels are oliicered by 
 persons selected by the Government of India. 
 
 984. Were the whole of the officers, as well as the commanding officers, taken 
 from the Royal navy? — I think not. 
 
 98,5. How^ were they manned ; under what arrangement .' — Under an agree- 
 ment to serve for three or four years; and I believe the Indian (Jovernment has 
 required that the agreement shall specify that the\' shall Ije subject to the code 
 of laws in use in the Indian navy ; but we have understood that there is no legal 
 power to enforce this. 
 
 986. Viscount Joceli/n.'\ Do yon mean to say that most of the vessels in your 
 service, which were eni])loyed in China, were connnanded by officers belonging 
 to the naval service of England ? — I do. 
 
 987. Who was captain of the '' Queen " ? —The " Queen " was commanded 
 by Captain Warden. But I spoke of the four iron vessels which were built in 
 and went direct from this country. 
 
 988. Captain Warden neither belonged to the Queen's naval service nor to 
 the Company's service ?— He belonged to the pilot service. 
 
 989. Mr. Elliot.'] Do the Calcutta navy, when on service, receive prize- 
 money? — I think they do. 
 
 990. On the same scale as the Indian navy ? — I am not certain ; Captain 
 Hall, who has been employed, will be able to tell the Committee. 
 
 991. Mr. Cobclen.] What are the points upon the map within which you 
 require the Indian navy to do the work which you have described, of protect- 
 ing the sea from pirates in time of peace, and guarding connnerce r — Within 
 the limits of the Company's charter. 
 
 992. From the Straits of Malacca to the Persian Gulf? — Yes. 
 
 993. Do you reckon upon the assistance of any of the Queen's ships within 
 that distance r — Not for the suppi'ession of piracy. In case of necessity the 
 Government of India apply to the naval commander-in-chief, and he always 
 manifests the greatest disposition to meet such requisition. 
 
 994. But in ordinary times, for the protection of commerce along the whole 
 coasi of British India, you consider that navy sufficient ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 995. Sir G. Grey] How are the vessels belonging to the Bombay navy 
 manned ; with Europeans or natives, or in what proportions? —There is a pro- 
 portion of Europeans, and a proportion of natives ; according to the latest 
 return there were 3,8(30 men altogether, of whom 229 were officers, Europeans ; 
 and 1,789 were natives. 
 
 996. The whole of the officers are Europeans ? — The whole of the officers 
 are Europeans. 
 
 997. Does that include what are called " warrant officers" r — No ; this does 
 not include the warrant otiicers ; commissioned officers. 
 
 998. Sir J. Hogg.] Is not the navy and its management, and its expenditure, 
 subject to the Government of Bombay and the Supreme Government of India 
 in the same manner as any other branch of the public service ? — It is ; there 
 is no difference whatever. 
 
 999. Mr. Elliot.] Is not the Calcutta navy all manned by natives, except 
 the officers? — No ; partly by natives and partly by Europeans. 
 
 1000. YiscQunt J ocelgn-] Has the Governor-general of India any authority 
 over the admiral of the station r— None whatever. 
 
 1001. He can give no orders to him ? — No. 
 
 1 00:'. Mr. Hardingc] Has not the Persian Gulf been surveyed most accurately 
 by the Indian navy r — It has. 
 
 1003. And those charts are very valuable r— They are considered so; and 
 are constantly required for use on board the ships of the Royal navy. 
 
 1004. And that service is a very arduous service, is it not, from the un- 
 healthiness of the climate ?-— 1 believe that to be the case. 
 
 100.5. And there would have been great mortality in the Royal ships had 
 0.10. I 4 they
 
 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORK THE 
 
 J. c. Melvill, Esq. they been employed in that service, in consequence of the crews being Euro- 
 - iMiirch 1853. peans ? — It might be apiirchended, certainly. 
 
 1006. Sir T. //. Mm/dock.] You have stated that the Bombay navy is subject 
 to the control of tlu; local Government, nnder the Supreme Government ot 
 India, in the same manner as the army ; are all the expenses attending the 
 Bombay navy, such as building ships and the construction of docks, also under 
 the control of the Governor-general in Council ? — Certainly ; the Bonibav 
 Government cannot take a single step with respect to the construction of a 
 dock, or the building of a vessel, or anything involving any expense beyond, 
 I think, 10,000 rupees, without reference either to the Court of Directors or to 
 the Govennnent of India. 
 
 1007. Has it not occurred of late years that a large expenditure has beau 
 incurred on those accoimts, without any objection from the Government of 
 India, under direct orders from the Court of Directors ? — No doubt the Court 
 of Directors have full jjower to direct the building of ships, without reference 
 to the Government of India, if they so think tit. 
 
 1008. Is that the onl)- matter upon which they issue orders of that descrip- 
 tion to the local Government, not to the Supreme Government of India? — 
 No ; the rule is of universal apjjlication ; there is no difference between a 
 reference to the Court upon a military and a naval question. One uniform 
 practice is pursued ; the Court of Directors either refer it to the Government 
 of Infha, or themselves decide the question, and communicate their decision to 
 the local government. 
 
 1 009. Has it been the case in practice that the raising of additional regiments 
 in the Madras or the Bengal Presidency has ever been ordered or sanctioned 
 by the Court of Directors by direct communication to those Governments ? — 
 I do not think there has been any increase to the regiments of Madras since 
 1834 ; there has been at Bombay; and, to the best of my recollection, that 
 increase was made by order of the Court of Directors upon a reference froui the 
 Government of India. In like manner, the Government of India have repeatedly 
 referred to the Court questions connected with the Indian navy, which had 
 been submitted 10 the Government of India by the Government of Bombay, in 
 the first instance, and upon which the two Governments had been in correspon- 
 dence ; and there being differences of opinion, the Government of India referred 
 the questions for the decision of the Court. 
 
 1010. With reference to the vessels employed at sea from Bengal, have they 
 of late years jterforraed any essential services, ])artl3^ of a military nature ? — 
 I think they have ; they are rendering important service now in Ava. 
 
 1011. The question alludes to the period previous to the Burmese war? — 
 They have been emi)loye(l, 1 believe, in checking piracy in the Straits. 
 
 1012. Are they not cajjablc of iierformiug that service, the suppressing of 
 piracy, in a more efficient manner than any description of shij) in the Royal 
 navy ? — 1 cannot sjjcak with respect to the Royal navy ; but I think they are 
 peculiiirly efficient from their light draught of water, being enabled to run 
 close in upon the coast. 
 
 1013. Has it been considered a hardship by the officers employed upon 
 those occasions, in conjunction with and imdcr the orders of officers of tlie 
 Royal navy, that they have neither received a share of the prize-money com- 
 mensurate with tlieir services, nor have met with honorar)' distinctions in 
 reward for those services ? — I have no doubt it, is felt to be a hardshi[) that 
 they are not a regularly c;omraissioned service. 
 
 1014. Mr. JJift)it'.] Ai'C you aware that in China the vessels i;clonging to the 
 Indian navy and those from Bengal were distinguished equally with any shii)s 
 emjiloyed in that service .-— I believe they were. 
 
 1025. Were the)' not mentioned with ('(jual ap])robation in all the despatches r 
 — i hey were. 
 
 1016. Were there not officers of the British navy serving with them in the 
 same service, many of wlioni received honours fin- those services in China? — 
 There were. 
 
 1017. Is it not the fact that there were many officers bcdonging to the Indian 
 navy who also p(>rformed services which were considered by tlie Connnander- 
 in- chief as equally meritorious, who never received any honours from the 
 Crown r — That is tlu- fact ; they were reconnnended for honours from the 
 Crown ; tliey were considei'ed eligible, and yet the}- have never received any. 
 
 1018. Is 
 
 I
 
 SELECT COMIMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITOKIES. 73 
 
 1018. Is it considered a great hardshi}) on the part of those men whose J- C. MdvUl , V.n\ 
 services were so valuable, tliat they have been so neglected .' — I have fre(|uc'ntly 7 March 1853. 
 heard that stated. 
 
 1019. By whom were those representations of their services made i' — Sir 
 William Parker and Lord Dalhousit; have both spoken in the highest terms of 
 the services of the Indian navy. 
 
 lO'jo. Have the Court of Directors ever placed before the Government the 
 hardshi]) ol' their officers serving in the same service as the Queen's navy, and 
 never being rewarded /—They have made tlu> strongest representations upon 
 the subject. 
 
 1021. You have l)een asked respecting ships that were lent; is it not the 
 fact that the " Nemesis," the " Phlegetbon," and the " Pluto," were lent for 
 years, and acted along with the Queen's ships .' — Yes, that is the case. 
 
 \(yi2. Are you not aware that Captnin AVallidge commanded the " Nemesis," 
 in 1849, along with the " Albatross," Captain Parker, in an action against the 
 alleged pirates on that occasion ? — I have seen that stated in some papers laid 
 before the Mouse of Commons. 
 
 1 023. \\ hat situation had Captain Wallidge ? — He was merely a captain ap- 
 pointed by the Bengal government. 
 
 1 024. He was one of the officers appointed under the Presidency of Bengal .' 
 — He was. 
 
 1025. Has no question been raised before the Court of Directors or in India, 
 as to the legality of those officers and men being employed in the war without 
 either commissions from the Crown or letters of marque, or anything to autho- 
 rise them to so act? — No; I have not heard of any such question being 
 raised. 
 
 1026. Is it within your knowledge that they had no warrant from the Crown, 
 or from any naval officer, or any letters of marque ? — I have always supposed 
 that they had authority from the naval Commander-in-chief, when they were 
 called upon liy him to act in conjoint operation with ships of the Koyid navy, 
 but I cannot speak with any degree of certainty upon that. 
 
 1027. Did not the ollicers employed in the service along with the Queen's 
 troops, in the Straits and on the coast of Ijorneo, go far beyond the limits of 
 what are called the Company's possessions in the Straits of Singapore ? — Borneo 
 is certainly not considered to be within the Company's jurisdiction, though it 
 is within the limits of their c'.iarter. 
 
 1028. With respect to the actions on the coast of Borneo, are you aware 
 whether the officers of the Indian navy shared in the head-money on any of 
 those occasions where they have been enq^loyed to put down the pirates t — 
 They shared in the head-money. I believe they were never employed in that 
 service except at the request of the officer employed in the command of the 
 Royal navy. 
 
 1029. They have never acted beyond the limits which you have stated unles.s 
 in conjunction with, and under the orders of, a commander of Her Majesty's 
 navy ? — I believe not. 
 
 1030. Sir 2\ H. Maddock.] Or probably in consequence of instructions 
 which the commanding officer of those vessels may have received from the 
 Governor of Singapore r — No ; I think tbe authority has always been from 
 a commander of the Royal navy. I do not think the authority was from a 
 Company's servant. 
 
 1031. Are not the vessels stationed in those seas all under the command of 
 the Governor of Singapore r — No doubt they are all in communication with him. 
 
 1032. Mr. Hiimc.~\ Generally speaking, do not they require the orders of 
 Colonel Butterworth, the Governor of Singapore, and is not it under his orders 
 that they act ?— I think the requisition came from the commanding officer of 
 the Ro) al navy ; the order may have gone through Colonel Butterworth, but 
 the requisition for the particular service, I think, emanated from the Royal 
 navy ; then, of course, before the officer, the captain of the vessel, would go 
 upon the service, he would get the orders from his own government, which in 
 this particular case might be the Governor of Singapore. 
 
 5033. Are not the officers acting under the direction of Colonel Butterworth 
 directed to report regularly to the Marine Department, or to some department 
 in Bengalr— 1 imagine that there must be constant periodical reports from 
 those places to the Bengal Government. 
 
 0.10. K 1034. Do
 
 74 MINUTES OF EVIDE.NXE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C.Mehi//, Esq. 1034' Do you receive at the India House legular returns from the Indian 
 -rz — -— - navy of their proceedings ? — We do. 
 
 7 ' arc 1 53. 1035. From the officer superintending? — From the Bombay Government, 
 
 upon reports made to that Govei'nment by the superintendent. 
 
 1036. Have you ever had at the head of the Indian marine any officer 
 belonging to the Imhan marine as commandant, or is it generally a Queen's 
 officer ? — Formerly a Company's officer, but now always a captain in the Royal 
 navy. 
 
 1037. Has any application been made by the Court of Directors that their 
 own officers, men who are considered capable of doing so, may be allowed to 
 assume the command?— I think nnt ; the present arrangement was in 1827, 
 and it was made by the Court of Directors ; and I am not aware of any instance 
 in which the Court of Directors have proposed to supersede that arrangement 
 by the appointment of a Company's officer to command the force. 
 
 1038. Then from the head of that department regular returns are received 
 at the India House of the disposal and the proceedings of what is commonly 
 called the regular Indian navy ? — Yes. 
 
 1039. Are there anv such i-eturns in the India House of the Bengal marine 
 force?—! think not periodically; to the best of my recollection, when this 
 Committee called for a return of that description, we were obliged to send to 
 India for it, and we have obtained it. 
 
 1040. There is a memorandum in the papers that no returns can be found 
 except one ; has anv requisition from the Court of Directors gone to Bengal 
 for the purpose of obtaining regular returns of the services of those shii)s ? — 
 I am not aware. 
 
 1041 . Can you state how many of the Company's ships are now at Burmah ? 
 — I think there are 1 1 altogether. 
 
 1042. Taking the whole number in commission and in pay belonging 10 the 
 Indian service, both the regular and the irregular, what is the total number at 
 present, according to the last return ? — There are 58 altogether, including 
 Bengal. 
 
 1043. Has any proposition been made to consolidate the whole of those 
 two sei-vices in India, so as to be able to reduce the number of Glueen's 
 ships there ? — I have stated that Lord Dalhousie has under his consideration 
 a proposal for amalgamating the two services. 
 
 1 044. Would you supply the Committee with a copy of any despatches since 
 the former Burmese war, or including the former i5urmese war, coutaining 
 instances in which the ships under the Company's orders have received the 
 thanks of the Commander-in-chief of Her Majesty's ships at the time : — Such 
 a return can be given. 
 
 104.'). Will vou have the goodness to prepare a short abstract, showing the 
 occasions on which both ser\'iccs have been employed, distinguishing the regular 
 and the irregular ? — I will do so, upon receiving the order of the Committee. 
 
 i()4(i. Sir T. H. Maddock.] Mill you be so good as to inform the Committee 
 what is the nature of the discii)line whicii is maintained in the Calcutta Naval 
 Force, in the same way as you have stated it with respect to the Indian Marine ? 
 — I believe there is i)ractically very little difference; but I would rather that 
 the Committee should ask the opinion of a professional officer who has been 
 employed in one of those vessels ; I take the liberty of referring the Committee 
 to Captain Hall, who commanded the " Nemesis." 
 
 1047. Since the time of Captain Hall has there not been a court established 
 at Calcutta ? — Courts of Inquiry are frequently held. 
 
 1048. With reference to the employment of the Company's ships in the 
 Straits of Malacca and to thu Eastward, aie not the steam vessels frequently 
 obliged to go to Labuan to tai<e in supphes of coal ? — I beUeve that has been 
 the ease. 
 
 io4(». Mr. Mangles.] You stated to the Committee that the Governor-general 
 of India had no power to issue any orders to the Royal navy ; was it not the 
 case that Lord Welleslcv was appointed Captain-general in order to give him 
 that ])ower? — I never heard of that. 
 
 1050. He was Captaimgeneralr— He was, but I thought that had in view 
 mihtary ratlicr than naval objects. 
 
 lo.ji. Mr. Elliot.} Can you instance any particular case in which officers of 
 the Royal navy have received a reward for their services, and in which officers 
 
 of
 
 SELliCT COMMITIMCE ON INDIAN TERlilTORIES. 
 
 /.'J 
 
 of the Bombay marine of the same rank, who Iiave been employed and have j. c. Melvill, Ei>q. 
 
 been equally mentioned in the orders, have been passed over ? — I would take 
 
 the case of Captain Hall himself, who was an officer in the Royal navy, but ^ ^^rch i«53. 
 served in China as the commander of one of the East India Com})any's vessels 
 appoint! (I by the Court of Directors, with the jjermission of the Lords of the 
 Admiralty. After most distini;uished service in C hina he was promoted to the 
 rank of Captain, but did not get the Order of the Bath, although many officers 
 who were employed in the Queen's ships of the same rank as Captain Hall got 
 their promotion and got the C. B. too. But the East India (Company's officers 
 got neither ; they could not get promotion, it Ijeing a seniority service, and thev 
 failed in getting the C. B. I have mentioned particularl\' Captain Hall ; per- 
 haps his. services were so cons]:)icnous that I can hardly name any other officer 
 in couii)arison with him ; Ijut I will take the lil)erty of naming Captain Ormsby, 
 who was a most meritorious officer ; he received the commendations of Sir 
 William Parker, and was recommended for the Order of the Bath, but did not 
 
 get It. 
 
 1052. But being of the same rank with officers of the Royal navy, who did 
 get it? — Yes 
 
 1053. And employed in the same service ? — Yes. 
 
 1054. The Bombay navy is a service of seniority? — It is. 
 
 105,5. Therefore it would be impossible to reward an officer in the Bombay 
 navy by giving him promotion ? — It would be imjjossible. 
 
 1056. Mr. Hume.] Can you lay before the Committee an abstract of those 
 two accounts of which you have given the results ; namely, the gross expen- 
 diture for the Indian navy, and the receipts in reduction of that expenditure, 
 including rhe 50,000 /. received from the Government for the postage depart- 
 ment ? — Yes, I can. Independently of the 50,000 /. received from the Govern- 
 ment, the results which I have given are gathered from a return already before 
 the Committee, dated the 25th of June 1852. 
 
 1057. Is there an account also of the gross and net expenditure on account 
 of the Bengal irregular force? — No, there is not; perhaps the Committee 
 would be pleased to call for that. 
 
 10,58. Are you aware whether the vessels in Bengal are built by contract, or 
 by any establishment of the Company there? — The " Tenasserim'' was built 
 at Moulmein ; those four vessels which I have mentioned, and the " Queen," 
 were built in England. 
 
 105;). Have not many others of those employed in Bengal been purchased 
 ships, already built ? — Some. 
 
 lotio. Are you aware whether the majority have been built by contract or 
 not ? — I cannot say. 
 
 1 06 1 . Those built in England were built by contract ? — They were. 
 
 1062. By whom ? — Four of them were built by Mr. Laird, the four iron ves- 
 sels ; the " Queen," I think, was built by Mr. Wigram. 
 
 1063. Are you aw^are whether there occurred, after the time they sailed, anv 
 inconvenience or hinderance in their out-fitting or progress until their arrival 
 in India ? — I am not aware of any. 
 
 1064. Mr. Elliot. '\ Were those steam vessels ? — Those five vessels, the " Pro- 
 serpine," the " Phlegethon," the " Nemesis,' the '"' Pluto,'" and the " Queen." 
 were all steam vessels. 
 
 1065. Did they go out under steam or under sail? — Both. 
 
 \o66. Mr. Cohden.'] Were they all of iron? — The '"Queen" was of wood, 
 the others were of iron. 
 
 lOii;. Mr. IJardinge.] Are those vessels in the Presidency of Bengal all sen - 
 worthy and fit to go to sea ?— Yes, I think so : most of them are now in Ava. 
 
 lOticS. How are the officers in the Bengal service appointed ? — By the Bengal 
 Government. 
 
 1069. Have they an examination to go throu<ih ? — I believe they have. 
 
 1070. Under the marine superintendent .' — Under the marine superintfaid- 
 eiit now ; there is no Marine Board. 
 
 1071. When was the ?\Iarine Board abolished? — Eight or 10 years ago ; it 
 was an act of Lord Ellenborough, I think. 
 
 1072. Mr. Hume.] Are you aware whether any punishments have been 
 0.10. K 2 inflicted
 
 .^J;lrcll i853- 
 
 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C Mekill, Esq. inflicted on board of those ships which are not under martial law ? — I am not 
 aware. 
 
 1073. Are you aware whether there have been any courts martial, or courts 
 of inquiry : — There have been no courts martial, but in each case there have 
 been courts of inquiry. The result of the inquiry is reported to the Govern- 
 ment, and the Government passes its decision. 
 
 1074. Sir 7'. H. MdddocA:] Has any serious inconvenience arisen from the 
 commanders of those vessels not having legal powers for punishment, or for 
 the maintenance of discipline r— I think inconvenience must have arisen. 
 
 1075. Mr. Hume.'] With regard to the medical officers, they belong to the 
 Company's service and are supplied to the vessels from the Company's regular 
 establishment .' — Yes. 
 
 ]07ti. On the same principle as those in the Bombay navy? — Yes. 
 
 1077. Then in that respect the medical department of that service is on an 
 established footing 1 — Yes. 
 
 1078. But no other branch of the service is? — No other. 
 
 1 079. In the Bombay marine do the officers enter as midshipmen and rise 
 by seniority .'— They enter as volunteers and become midshipmen ; and after a 
 certain period of service they pass an examination and become mates ; and 
 then they go on by seniority. 
 
 1080. Have any courts martial taken place in the Indian naval service ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1081. Are the officers all entitled to half-pay and pension in case of wounds ? 
 ■ — Yes ; they have furlough and retired allowances analogous to those in the 
 army. 
 
 1082. Are there any vessels particularly employed in the survey department 
 of the Indian nav)% or are they taken as circumstances may require from the 
 other ships r — Generally speaking, the schooners and brigs are employed on 
 survey. They are cheaper, and the work is done principally in boats. 
 
 1083. Are you able to state whether there are any, and if any, how many 
 surveys completed by the Bombay marine that have not been published ? — I 
 am not aware that there are any. It is the practice now that as soon as a 
 survey of any importance is completed, it is sent home and published imme- 
 diately. 
 
 1084. Sir 2\ II. Maddork.'] Has not the Supreme Government of India 
 passed an Act for the discipline of the Indian navy ?— Yes. 
 
 108.3. Has any Act ever been passed for the discipline of that part of the 
 navy which is subject to Bengal ? — No ; and I doubt whether the Legislative 
 Council in India have the power of passing such an Act. 
 
 1086. Is it the case that there have been doubts felt in the Council in India 
 about the power to pass such an Act, and that is the reason that such an Act 
 has not hitherto been passed ? — It was in consequence of doubts of the power 
 of tlie Legislative Council of India to pass any Act subjecting the corps to 
 martial law, that an Act of Parliament was passed authorizing the Legislative 
 ■Council to pass a law affecting tlie Indian navy. 
 
 1087. Has it not been doubted whether the Supi-eme Government of India 
 ])ossesses any power of legislation or otherwise beyond low-water mark, or two 
 miles beyond it, all round the coasts of the Peninsula of India ? — I cannot 
 sjieak to ])articular doubts that may have arisen. 
 
 1088. If tliat is the case, would it not be desirable to extend the power of 
 the Governor-general in all cases over the India seas ?— 1 think it veiy desirable 
 that the Legislative Council of India should have ample power of legislation. 
 
 1089. Mr. Elfiot.'] You stated that Bombay built ships were much stronger 
 than those built in England ; can you state the average time that they calcu- 
 late a Bombay sliip to hist: — No, i cannot. I have heard it stated that vessels 
 from lOiigland are very soon worn out, ana that vessels from India last almost 
 for ever. 
 
 1090. At any rate, do you think that they will last double the time of an 
 English built ship ? — I fliink so. 
 
 1091. Consequently they are much more economical in the end?— That 
 is my impression. 
 
 Captain
 
 SELECT C0M:\HTTEE on INDIAN TERRITORIES. 77 
 
 Captain FredericJc Thomas Poivell, called in ; and Examined. 
 
 10()'2. Chain/tan.] YOU are an Officer of the Indian Navy ? — Yes. Capt. F. T. Pouiell. 
 
 1093. How long have yon belonged to that service, and what eonnnission do 
 
 you hold in it? — I have been in the service very nearly liO years; I now 7 'lur"' 1853. 
 hold a ca])tain's commission. 
 
 1094. is the Indian navy governed upon the principle of a seniority service ; 
 and do the officers rise in it progressively from the lowest to the highest 
 grades ? — Yes. 
 
 1095. Under whose innuediat(^ superintendence and orders is the Indian 
 navy conducted? — Under an officer of the Royal navy, vi'ho is styled " Commo- 
 dore Commander-in-chief" of the service. 
 
 1096. Is there any difference in the management and conduct of the vessels 
 of the Indian navy when absent from Bombay, which the Committee under- 
 stand to be the head-quarters of the force ? — If the meaning of the question is, 
 whether there is any difference in the disci|)line and management of the vessels 
 as compared with what would take place in Bombay, certainly there is none. 
 
 1097. Are the different services of the Bombay marine all conducted on the 
 same principle, whether in the Persian Gulf or in the Red Sea, or whether they 
 are upon a distant service, when engaged with the Royal navy ; is the service 
 always conducted upon the same principle and upon the same system ? — I think 
 it is possible there may be some systems in the Indian navy which do not 
 appertain to the Royal navy, and vice versa, but I am not aware of any material 
 difference. 
 
 1098. Will you state upon what particular services you have been employed 
 in the Indian navy? — Nearly the first 14 years I was employed upon survey, 
 and since that I have been employed in command of some of the vessels of 
 war, also in China ; and nearly the last six years in command of the flotilla on 
 the Indus. 
 
 1099. You have been employed in co-operation with the Royal navy r — Yes. 
 
 1100. On what occasion, and during what period r- — -In China, during the 
 latter part of the last war, about seven months. 
 
 1 101. Have you ever been professionally employed on any service conjointly 
 with any steam-vessels belonging to the Bengal presidency r^There were a few 
 of the Bengal steamers acting in concert with the fleet in China during the 
 time I served there. 
 
 1102. Has there been any practical inconvenience found from the mode in 
 which officers of the Royal navy and the Indian navy take rank relatively with 
 each other when acting in co-operation ' — No ; I think not. 
 
 1 1 oj. Have the two services generally worked in harmony ? — Y"es ; certainly. 
 
 1 1 04. Are there any shore appointments connected with the Indian navy 
 which its officers can hold while on the active list ? — There are three or four : 
 the naval storekeeper, and the master attendant in Bombay ; they are held by 
 captains in the service ; and the assistant to the Commander-in-chief. 
 
 1 105. What is the highest rank to which an officer in the Indian navy can 
 rise r — Captain is the highest rank, but we have the local i-ank of counnodore ; 
 the senior officer employed in the Persian Gulf during the time that he is 
 employed there, has the local rank of conimodoie. 
 
 1 106. Is that period limited ? — Yes, to three years. 
 
 1107. Can they be re-appointed to that command ? — Not to that; the same 
 officer might be appointed to command at Aden for a further period of three 
 years. 
 
 1108. What are the peculiar advantages of being commodore? — He receives 
 an extra allowance of pay. 
 
 1 109. Has he any superiority of rank afterwards ? — No. 
 
 1110. When he is removed from that station does his extra pay cease ? — 
 Yes, immediately. 
 
 1111. Sir C. Wood.] It is a temporary employment, like the employment of 
 a captain in the Royal navy as commodore '.' — Precisely the same. 
 
 1112. Chairman.] Have )'ou ever held any such appointnumt ? — No. 
 
 1113. Nor any appointment on shore? — Nor any appointment on shore, 
 except as I stated before, that I commanded the " Indus Flotilla " nearly six 
 years ; but the officer who commands that branch of the service is simply 
 designated senior officer. 
 
 0.1.0. K 3 1114. What
 
 - 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Capt. F. T.Pomll. ma- What is the general description and character of the steam and other 
 
 vessels composing the Indian navy, in comparison with the vessels of the Royal 
 
 7 March 185;^. navj- r — There are sloops of war, and brigs, and schooners, and there are several 
 steamers ; some of the latter have a heavy armament. 
 
 1 11, 5. As to their relative merits, should you think them equal in power and 
 speed to vessels of the same sizo in the Royal navy ? — The large steam vessels, 
 I think, are equal to any steamers of their class in any part of the world ; but 
 the old and smaller 8tea\ners are decidedly deficient in the present day. 
 
 1116. Will you describe the mode in which those vessels are manned? — 
 Partly hy Europeans, partly by the natives of the country. When not em- 
 ployed in active war services I should think nearly one-third of the crews con- 
 sist of natives of the country, but when the vessels are employed in active 
 service, the coal trimmers and stokers are then the only natives on board be- 
 sides the marines. 
 
 Ji?7. y isconnt Jo celj/n.] Where do the natives generally come from that 
 are employed in that sei'vice r — An island called Gogo, near Surat, north of 
 Bombay. 
 
 1118. Chairman.'\ Then for survey and any other employment except war ser- 
 vice, one-third of the men are natives ? — In the vessels employed on the sur\-ey, 
 I should think fully half the crew are natives, and t\\v. other half Europeans ; 
 the same is the case also, I think, in the packets. 
 
 1119. Are they armed and equipped, and provided with stores at Bombay ? — 
 They are armed and equipped entirely from the arsenal at Bombay ; a quantity 
 of the stores which are not procurable in India are sent from this countiy. 
 
 I 1 20. Do you consider the vessels to be in all respects equal to those of the 
 Royal navy- — ^They are equal to any vessels I have ever seen in their equip- 
 ment and furnishing. As far as the equipment of the ship goes, I consider that 
 they are equal to any vessels in the world. 
 
 1 1 1^ 1 . \V ith regard to the maintenance of discipline on board, is it perfect, in 
 your opinion r — J think so ; it has been very much improved since the last 
 Mutiny .Act was given to the ser'\'ice. 
 
 1 122. File discipline of the native seamen is good? — The natives are always 
 very easily managed. 
 
 I I 23. Have you any suggestion for the improvement of the service, that you 
 would wish to sul)mit to the Committee ? — No, I have not ; certainly not as far 
 as the discipline of the service is concerned. 
 
 1 1 24. Nor with regard to the manning or equipping of the vessels ? — No, I 
 think they are very efficient under the present system. 
 
 1 125. And except as regards the old vessels which you have mentioned, there 
 is no fault to be found with their construction ? — No ; there will be improve- 
 ment when the new ships whi(;h are now building are launched. 
 
 1 126. There is a portion of the Indian navy always employed on the river 
 Indus? — Yes. 
 
 1127. ^Vhat portion is that .' — It was first established when our army marched 
 to Affghanistan, for the purpose of accompanying the army through Scinde, 
 assisting in conveying military stores and troops, and sin(!e then it has been 
 considerably increased. I think at present there are 10 or II small 
 steamers on that river. 
 
 ] 1 28. For what objects - —Their duties now are the transport of troops and 
 of military stores up and down the river ; and they also convey merchandise, 
 and a great number ol' passengers up and down the Indus. 
 
 1 i2i). Then it is for the carrying on of traffic as well as for the protection of 
 the river ? — Yes. 
 
 1 130. Do you employ iron steamers for that purpose ? — Entirely. 
 
 1131. Sir C. H'ood.] How high do they go up? — They have now a monthly 
 comnmnication to Moultau throughout the year, and if it is necessary to send 
 more than one in a month, of course it is done ; they also can ascend the Indus 
 to a point called Kellal)agh, which is iinmediately at the foot cf the range of 
 hill- below Attock ; but beyond those points 1 do not think any of the upper 
 branches of the river Indus are navigable except during the inundation. 
 
 1 132. Chairman.'] What is the pay of a common European seamen? — It is 
 liable to change ; when the wages of the merchant seamen have risen to any 
 considerable amount beyond that given by the East India Company, it has been 
 
 necessary
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERKITORIES. 79 
 
 necessary to increase the seamen's wages in the Indian navy, l)ut at present Cant. F. T. P(AueU. 
 I believe they get 2/. a month, 20 rnpees. 
 
 1 1 33. Is that the ordinary rate r —That is the ordinary rate of an able seaman. 7 Mardi 1853. 
 
 1 134. What do you pa} tin; native seamen ?— They vary from eight rupees 
 to twelve. 
 
 1 135. Do }()U supply provisions to the natives as well as to the Europeans ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 1136. What is the proportionate rate of ])ay of officers of the Indian navy 
 relatively to officers of the Royal navy ? — Captains and commantlers in the 
 Indian navy are paid according to the class of vessel they command ; I think 
 there are five classes. 
 
 1 237. Sir G. Grey.'] Are the various ranks of officers, up fo the rank of post 
 captain, the same in the Indian navy as in the Rojal navy ? — Yes, with the 
 exce))tion that every rank of the Indian navy ranks below the same rank in the 
 Royal navy. 
 
 1 13S. But an officer to attain the rank of post captain in the Indian navy 
 must go through the same grades as in the Royal navy r — He must. 
 
 1 1 39. Do you know what is the relative amount of pay in those various ranks, 
 as compared witli the Royal navy ? — I cannot state. 
 
 1 140. Sir J. lloi-nj.] Do officers of the Queen's navy, within certain specified 
 limits, receive from the East India Company what is called " batta " as long 
 as they are on service? — Yes : I cannot state exactly Her Majestys pa\-, but I 
 am aware that in each grade of the Royal navy they get a sum called " batta " 
 given to them by the East India Company. 
 
 1141. Sir G. Grey.] But you do not know whether their pay. with the 
 addition of the batta, ecjuals or exceeds the pay of officers of the same rank 
 in the Indian navy ? — I think it exceeds the pay of officers of the same rank 
 of the Indian navy. 
 
 1 142. Is there a half-pay list in the Indian navy? — No; when officers are 
 unemployed they draw half-pay ; but it is so very seldom that any officer is 
 unemployed in the Indian navy, except from sickntss, that I scarcely know an 
 instance of it. 
 
 1143. Is there any pension on retiring, after a certain number of years' 
 service ? — Yes. 
 
 1 1 44 After what number of years ? — After 22 years' service; an officer, 
 after serving 22 years, is entitled to I'etire upon the pension of the rank that 
 he then holds ; but after a servitude of 30 years, any officer, whatever his rank 
 may be, can retire upon a captain's pension. 
 
 1145. "^ir «/• Hogg.] Whether he has attained the rank of captain or not? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1146. Chcilrman.] What is the amount of a captain's pension ? — Three hun- 
 dred and sixty pounds a year ; and he can, ultimately, succeed to a senior 
 pension of 800 /. a year, which is at present held by only four. 
 
 1147. Will you state how the midshipmen are appointed? — Tliey are 
 appointed as volunteers in this country by the Court of Directors, and on their 
 arrival in India they are styled midshipmen, and then rise by seniority. 
 
 1148. Before going to India, or upon his arrival in India, does the officer 
 pass any examination ? — I believe the volunteers are now obhged to furnish a 
 certificate from some factory that they are acquainted with the marine steam- 
 engine, previously to going to India, and after they have been in Intlia some 
 years thev must pass a regular examination before they can be promoted to be 
 mate or lieutenant. 
 
 114Q. How long must they serve before passing that examination " — Pom- 
 years. 
 
 1 1 50. Sir T. H. Maddock.] Is the age limited at which they can be ap- 
 pointed to the service ? — I believe the ages are now from l.'> to 18. 
 
 1151. Mr. v. Smith.] When once they have entered the service, is their 
 promotion entirely by seniority .' — Entirely by seniority. 
 
 1 152. There is no deviation from that ? — No. 
 
 ''53- When they get to the higher ranks is there any deviation from the 
 principle of seniority .' — No. 
 
 J 154. Viscount Jocclt/tt.] You do not mean to say that there is no selection 
 for particular services .' — There is no interference with the officers getting 
 progressively up the list ; but of course, if the Indian Government have any 
 
 0.10. K 4 particular
 
 8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Capt. r. T. Povcell. particulai' duty to perform, they have the poAver of selecting the officer whom 
 
 they think best quaHfied for it. 
 
 7 March 1853. 1155. I\Jr. V. Smith.'] Out of persons of equal rank? — Yes; or even aii 
 
 officer of a junior rank might be selected. 
 
 1 iffi. Practically, do they ever select from the junior ranks ? — Very rarely. 
 
 1 157. Chmrman.'] Have you a copy of the regulations with you r — I have. 
 
 1 1 58. 'Will you hand it in ? — 
 
 \_Tlic same was delivered hi, and read as follows :\ 
 
 Regulations for tlie Appointment of Volunteers to the Indian JNavy. 
 
 That nominees shall not be under 15 years, or above 18 years of ago, unless they shall 
 have served on board a steam vessel, or under an engineer in a factory or foundry, from the 
 completion of their ISth year, up to tlie time of their being put in nomination; and that in 
 such case the nominees shall not exceed It) years, and shall produce a certificate of their 
 having been so employed. 
 
 That nominees shall produce a certificate that thev have undergone an examination in 
 arithmetic, and the elementary branches of nautical education, so far as to satisfy the 
 Court, or any committee thereof, that tliey are qualified to enter upon the service. 
 
 That nommecs shall produce a certificate from a respectable engineer, that they have 
 acquired such a knowledge of marine engineering as to afford promise of efficient service on 
 board a steam vessel. 
 
 That every person nominated for the Indian navy be required to produce a certificate 
 from two practising surgeons, that he has no mental or bodily defect that may disqualify 
 him for the service. 
 
 That no person who has been dismissed the army or navy, or who lias been obliged to 
 quit any school or institution for immoral or ungentlemauly conduct, will be appointed to 
 the Indian navy. 
 
 That volunteers for the Indian navy be required to proceed to India within three months 
 after their appointment shall be completed, or their appointment will be considered as for- 
 feited, and that they be ranked from the date of sailing from Gravesend (by Lloyd's List) of 
 the ships on which they may embark for the purpose of joining the service in India: that 
 those who may enibaik at an outport be likewise ranked, upon the same principle, from the 
 date of the ship's dejjarture from such outport (by Lloyd's List); and that in the event of 
 more than one volunteer proceeding on the same ship, they take rank with each other, 
 according to the seniority of the nomiuatin:'' Director; the date and place of embarkation 
 being certified under the hand of the ofiicer in command of the ship. 
 
 That all volunteers appointed to the Indian navy subscribe to the Indian Navy Fund. 
 
 1 1 59. Sir T. H. jlladdock.] What number of ships are there usually employed 
 under the command of the Commodore in the Persian Gulf? — Generally three ; 
 but frequently a steamer is sent from Bombay to go all round the Gulf. 
 
 1160. Do not Her Majesty's vessels occasionally visit the Persian Gulf? — 
 They do. 
 
 11 61. In the case of one of Her Majesty's vessels, and the vessels of the 
 East India Company, which are under the command of a Commodore in the 
 Persian Gulf, coming together, and having occasion to act together, would 
 the Commodore command the officer of the Queen's ship, wliether he hap- 
 pened to be a captain or commander? — If he were a commander, I should 
 presume he would ; but not if he were a captain. 
 
 1 1 62. Have you ever known an instance in which a commanding officer of 
 one of Her Majesty's vessels has acted vnider the command of an officer of the 
 East India Comjiany's service r — I do not remember an instance. 
 
 1 163. Mr. Ihnnc.l Have you ever served in company with Uueen's ships ? — 
 Only in China. 
 
 ] 164. In that case, how was the rank arranged ; how were the orders issued 
 as respect the Queen's shi])S, the Indian nav}', and the l?engal marine ships? — 
 In Chin;i, on our arrival there, we j)laced ourselves under the orders of the 
 Admiral, by whom we were appointed to different divisions, and then we came 
 under the orders of the senior naval officer commanding that division. 
 
 iiij,";. In the progress of the China war, various jjarties were landed, con- 
 sisting of a joint force from different ships ; how, in that case, did they act ; 
 did not the lieutenants in all cases act as cai)tains ; was not there one uniform 
 rank in that service ? — I cannot speak to that ; I did not join the fleet in 
 the Yangtse Kiang till after the operations were concluded. 
 
 \ iC)C). Mr. Elliot.] \'ou mentioned that the ships were manned partly by 
 Europeans, and jiartly by natives ; have you any difficulty in finding Europeans 
 to fill up the places of the natives at a moment of pressure ? — ^'ery great at times, 
 
 1107. Supposing
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 81 
 
 1167. Supposing a war broki- out, and you liad to man a iuinil)cr of vour (^,1. l-.T. Pou:eli 
 
 shi))s with Europeans, would it be ))ossii)lc' :■' — I do not think we could mail the — — — 
 
 whole service ininieiUately ; but in a short time we could do it. 7 Marcli 1853. 
 
 I ]6S. Tiien for a certain time after such an event had taken i)lace, one of 
 your ships would hardly Ix^ fit to cope with any other shij) of ecpial size 1)elong- 
 ing to any other naval power? — I think she would be able to cope with any- 
 other vessel of equal size, because we are allowed an extra nund)er of natives 
 for the nunil)er of Eur()])eans that we are sliort. We are allov/ed at the rate 
 of three natives for two Euroi)eans ; and having that additional number of 
 men, I see no reason why the vessel would not be able to cope with any other 
 vessel of the same size. 
 
 iitiu. You would have the same confidence in the natives in action as in 
 Europeans ? — No, I would not have the same confi(l(;nce in action ; but still I 
 should not consider that the vessel would be inefficient, because it was partly 
 manni'd by natives and partly by Europeans. 
 
 1 1 70. Cliainnan.] Your dili'erent amount of confidence in the natives and in 
 Europeans would have reference to their difference of physical })ower ? — Yes. 
 
 1171. Mr. V. Stnith.\ "ion stated that you furnish both the European and 
 the native seamen with provisions ; how do you manage as to their feeding 
 together r — They are not messed together ; the natives mess separately, but 
 they all cook at the same lire ; the native seamen are Mahomedans. 
 
 1 172. Mr. Hardinge.^ Are not they all low caste men? — Mostly. 
 
 I I 7;5. Mr. Hh)iic.~\ Ilad you any courts martial upon any officers or men of 
 the Indian navy in China ? — No. 
 
 1 1 74. Had you courts martial during any i)art of vour service in India ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 117,5. Are any of the officers who commanded Bengal ships called upon or 
 allowed to act as members of courts martial ? — No. 
 
 1176. Have you known a court martial, or any court of inquiry, held on 
 individuals belonging to Bengal ships ? — I have served for siieii a verv short 
 time with them that 1 know veiy little of that branch of the Indian service. 
 
 1 177. Have you ever served in Burmah ? — No. 
 
 1 178. How long were you in China ? — Nearly seven months. 
 
 1 179. Are you able to state wdiat was the feeling of the service as regards the 
 honours which the Crown has given to the Queen's officers and not to the 
 Company's, although they were employed together in the same service? — There 
 is a feeling of disappointment, certainly, in the service, that the officers of the 
 Indian navy have been passed over when honours have been given to officers of 
 Her Majesty's service for duties performed precisely the same and at the same 
 time. 
 
 1 1 80. In China did not the Company's ships share equally in the services 
 with the Queen's ? — Yes. 
 
 1181. In every service? — I should say so. 
 
 1182. As far as you had an opportunity of seeing, are you aware of any 
 deficiency on their part in performing the duties assigned to them as compared 
 with those of the Royal navy ? — Certainly not. 
 
 1 1 83. You have mentioned the Indian flotilla ; does that consist of flat- 
 bottomed. boats drawing a small depth of water - — Entirely. 
 
 1 1 84. Are they built in India or in this country ?^They are made in this 
 country and sent out in pieces, and put together iri India. 
 
 118,5. During the time that you served in the Indus, how did those vessels 
 so put together perfoiin ; what was the efficiency of tiiose vessels as to rei)aivs r 
 — Of course they requii'ed repairs occasionally, as all vessels must, but some of 
 the original vessels employed upon tiie Indus were vessels sent on the Eui)hrates 
 and Tigris in Colonel Chesney's expedition, and they are not so well adapted 
 for the navigation of that river as those that have been more recently built. 
 
 ] 186. Are not a portion of the Indian regular navy employed in surveying ? 
 — Yes ; nearly always. 
 
 1187. Is there any additional pay allovred for the surveying? — The sur- 
 veyor and the assistant surveyor are allowed additional ])ay, but I believe it 
 does not extend to the other officers. Formerly all the officers employed on a 
 survey were allowed an extra allowance ; now, only the officer at tiie head of 
 the survey and his assistant are allowed anything extra. 
 
 1188. Is it within your knowledge that a large portion of the officers of the 
 0.10. L reijular
 
 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENX'E TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Capt. F.T.PoKcll. regular Indian navy are surveyors capable of performing, and having, in fact, 
 
 , performed, very important service since they have been in the service ? — Yes. 
 
 7 March 1853. 1 1 8(). Are not they generally so r — Yes. 
 
 I u)o. Are any of the Queen's vessels employed in surveying any portion of 
 the Red Sea or the coast of India, within your knowledge ? — Not within my 
 recollection. 
 
 I I g I . Do not their navigators depend on the surveys which have been made 
 bv the Company's officers, and are now in general use ? — Insomuch that all 
 vessels 2:oing to India are now, I believe, generally navigated by charts which 
 have been compiled from the surveys of officers in the Indian navy. 
 
 1192. How are the charts supplied ; is there any supply of charts kept at 
 Bombay or anv place where ships can <ibtain them ? — Immediately that the 
 charts are lithographed in this country, quantities are sent out to all the presi- 
 dencies, and there is a depot where they can always be purchased. 
 
 1 1 93. Sir 2\ //. MaddockJ] You mentioned that some disappointment had 
 been felt by officers of the Indian nav}- who had not received distinctions for 
 their services in China, being the same services that were rewarded by orders 
 and distinctions in the case of officers of the Queen's navy. There were officers 
 of the East India army serving on shore there with officers of Her Majesty's 
 army ; did those officers of the East India Company's army receive honours in 
 the same way that the officers of Her Majesty's army did? — I believe so. 
 
 i 1 94. Mr. Hume.~\ You stated that you had been obliged to increase the 
 amount of wages to some of the seamen ; what is the highest rate of wages 
 that you have ever given to a seaman r — Twenty-two rupees. 
 
 1195. What is the ordinary pay ? — At that time, I should think, it must 
 have been 18; because now an able seaman gets 20, and an ordinary one 15. 
 
 ! 196. Is an officer commanding a ship authorised to give such increase, or 
 must he obtain an order from the Government? — It must be an order of the 
 Government. 
 
 Captain William Huctheon Hall, r.x., f.r.s., was called in ; and Examined. 
 
 Ca^t. IF. H. Ball, 11 07. Cha'i.rman.~\ WHAT rank do 3'ou hold in the Royal navy? — Post 
 R.K., F.K.s. Captain. 
 
 ' 1 19S. You were commander of one of the ships of the East India Com- 
 
 pany's navy ? — I commanded the " Nemesis" throughout the Chinese war. 
 
 1 1 99. How long were you there ? — -I joined the " Nemesis " in the latter end 
 of 1839, at Liverpool, and I paid her off at Calcutta, at the beginning of 1843, 
 after the Chinese war was over. 
 
 1200. You took her out as commander? — I did. 
 
 1 201. During that service had you an opportunity of forming a judgment as 
 to the efficiency of the Indian navy? — I had. 
 
 1 -202. What was your opinion as to the general efficiency of your own ship, 
 in the first place? — 1 observed that when steamers in the two services were 
 working together, the regular Indian navy was just as efficient as the Royal 
 navy, taking the " Nemesis " as an instance ; I could see no difference at all 
 between them. 
 
 1-^03. As regards the way in which they were manned, was there any dif- 
 ference? — NA'e did not consider that they were so wtdl manned as the Royal 
 navy, because they frequently had many natives on board ; they were not all 
 Europeans. 
 
 1 204. What proportion of natives had you on board the " Nemesis " ?— I had 
 no natives on board the " Nemesis." with the exception of a few Chinese that 
 we had on board from necessity. 
 
 1 205. V/ere there natives on board the other vessels of the Indian navy em- 
 ployed in C'hina at the time ? — There were a few on board each. 
 
 1 2<i6. Do vou know the proportion ? — No, I do not. 
 
 1 207. With regard to the oliicers, did you consider the vessels of the Indian 
 navy to be as well officered as those of the Royal navy? — Yes, 1 think they 
 were just as well oOieered ; ( never observed any difference as regards the ships 
 from Bombaj-, the regular Indian navy. 
 
 1208. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAX TERRITORIES. S3 
 
 1208. Do you coiisidei- that the Indian navj- is better found and better offi- Capt. IV. H.Hali, 
 cered than the Reniial marine foree r— Yes, I thoui::lit so ii.n.,f.r.s. 
 
 1 1209. To what do _vou attriliute tlie difference r — I tlunk the ollieers of the _ r. — 
 Indian navy may be considered quite naval officers ; the other oflicers are ' • '""'^ ' 53- 
 excellent seamen, and <;allant men ; but still they are not brought up to war 
 like the Indian officers ; they l)ehaved very gallantly, but J never considered 
 that thi ir ships were in such fighting diseijiline as the regular Indian navy. 
 
 iiiio. Then your opinion, from your experience, is favourable as to the 
 general efficiency of the Indian nav}' r — Y'es. 
 
 \j\]. Are there any defects that occurred to your notice that would sug- 
 gest any recommendations, on your ])art, to the Committee?- None that I 
 remember. 
 
 i'2i-2. Sir 7'. //. Mdddodi.] Did your shijj, the "Nemesis," belong to the 
 Indian navy? — No; she was detached from England, under secret orders, 
 upon particular service ; there were four of them ; I took out the first, the 
 " Nemesis." 1 sailed from England under secret orders, with a direction from 
 the East India Comi)any to call at Ceylon to get further instructions from the 
 Governor-general ; and when I arrived at Ceylon I found orders there to 
 proceed to China, and tt) put myself there under the naval Commander-in-chief. 
 
 i'2)3. Chairman.] How were those four ships officered: — I had a lieutenant 
 of the navy for my first officer ; I had a mate of the navy for my second officer, 
 and I hi'.d one that I selected myself for my third officer ; but the senior officers 
 were appointed by the East India Comjjany. 
 
 1214. Were they all officers holding commissions in the Royal navy ? — My 
 first officer was a lieutenant in the Royal navy ; the second was a mate in the 
 Royal navy ; and the third was a person who was recommended, but not be- 
 longing to any particular service. 
 
 1215. He hatl not been in the navy ? — No ; but he was a very good sailor. 
 
 1216. Viscount Jocelyn.] Had you any other officers besides? — I had a 
 surgeon, and a purser. 
 
 1217. Were they in the Queen's service, or in the Company's service ? — 
 They were not in any service whatever ; they were selected and appointed by 
 the Comjiany before going out. 
 
 1218. How was the ship manned? — I had 60 men, which I increased in 
 China to 90. 
 
 1 2 1 9. Was that the same complement as you would have had in a ship of 
 the same size, in the Queen's service ?— About the same, that is, 90 men. 
 
 1 220. Mr. Hume-I How many guns had you ? — I had two 32-pounders, shell- 
 guns, from England, and 1 added afterwards six brass guns which I procured in 
 China. 
 
 1221. How was discipline maintained in the ship ; was it under the Queen's 
 articlts of war? — I had no articles of war. The fact is, I was obliged to main- 
 tain discipline in the best way that I could ; I considered that they were all 
 completely under the mei'chant system. 
 
 1222. ^ir G. Greij.] Had you any other authority, as commander of the 
 ship, than the captain of a merchant ship r — I had no other authority at all. 
 
 1223. Mr. Hvi/ic.'] Would it not have been more satisfactory to you to have 
 had the same articles of w^ar as the Indian navy now have, to ensure discipline 
 and order .'--Certainly ; but any authority was better than none. 
 
 1224. Sir G. Grci/.] How long were you in command of that shij) '. — L'p- 
 wards of three years. 
 
 1225. Did any serious inconvenience ax'ise from that defect of authority ? — 
 Occasionally, but which I overcame. 
 
 1226. Mr. Him e.] Did you during that time carry out any punishments 
 against the men ?— I had no authority for any corjjoral punishment ; of course 
 1 had certain minor punishments, but I treated the men well, and being firm 
 with them, 1 had very little punishment indeed ; I think throughout the whole 
 of the war I punished only one man. 
 
 1227. What wages did you j)ay the men ? — 'Ihree pounds a month. 
 
 1228. Did you continue that rate of pay all the time?— Yes; and to some 
 that I engaged afterwards I was obliged to give 3/. 10. v. 
 
 1 229, Were the GO whom you took out all able-bodied men ? — Y'es. 
 1230. All at 3/. a month ? — Yes. 
 0.10. L 2 1231. And
 
 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEX BEFORE THE 
 
 Capt. If. H. Hall, 1-3'- And those that ^vel•t• enrolled afterwards were on the same footing r^ 
 U.S., F.R.s. Yes ; but to some I was obhged to give more when we were going uj) to the 
 
 north, because after the war was over in the south of Cliina we went to tiie 
 
 7 Maic!) i8.;3. north ; of course I knew I slioukl get no men there, and 1 was anxious to till 
 the complement up. 1 gave to some men whom I got out of an American ship 
 3/. 10*. a month. 
 
 1 232. Viscount Jocelj/ii.] Had your ship any Lascars aboard ': — No. I 
 shipped three Kroomen on the coast of Africa in the passage from England. 
 I thought tlu'\' would answer very well as stokers. 
 
 1 233. What were your tirenien generally ? — All Europeans, with the exception 
 of six Chinamen whom I employed in China. 
 
 1 234. Sir G. Grci/.^ \o\\ held the rank of captain ? — I was a lieutenant, and 
 got promoted. 
 
 1 235. Did you and the other officers of the " Nemesis'" receive the same rate 
 of pay that was given to officers of the same rank serving in the Bengal 
 marine r — I think not exactly the same rate ; there was an agreement before 
 we left England with the East India Company about our pay. 
 
 1 23(). Then your case was an exception to the general rule ? — The foin* ships 
 that wei'c commanded by naval officers I believe were an exception to the 
 general rule. 
 
 1237. Viscount Jocel;/ii.\ Are you aware what the pay of the Queen's 
 officers is in India r — When I commanded the " Dragon," the last ship which 
 1 commanded in the navy, my pay w'as 400 /. a year. 
 
 I 238. What would your pay have been in India ! — In the " Nemesis " it was 
 400 I. a year also. 
 
 1239. ^Vhat would your pay have been in the " Dragon " ? — I do not know; 
 1 think the East India Company give an extra allowance. 
 
 1 240. Sir G. Orel/.'] When you were in command of the " Nemesis," were 
 you in receipt of about the same rate of pay as the commander of a steamer 
 of war of the same size belonging to the Royal navy employed in China? — 
 I think it was about the same. I think the commanders of the steam frigates 
 were not allf)wed any extra pay. 
 
 1241. Viscount J^r)re/y?«.] Does not the batta that is allowed by the East 
 India Company to the officers of the Royal navy emjjloyed in India, make up 
 the pay to the same amount as that which they pa}- to their own officers of 
 the same rank ? — I do not know. 1 was never emploj^ed in India in a man- 
 of-war. 
 
 1242. Sir /. IltHjt].'] There is no batta paid by the East India Company to 
 the officers of the Queen's navy in China ; that is without the limits ? — That is 
 without (he limits. 
 
 1243. Mr. Elliot.^ Have you received any prize-money for the services in 
 China ? — There were two payments of prize or batta-money ; I received, I be- 
 lieve, th(; sliare of a field officer. The first award was made for the war in the 
 South of China; the second for the campaign in the North. I received about 
 550 1, as my share of batta-money on each occasion. 
 
 1244. What is the distinction between batta and ])nze-money r — I do not 
 know ; it was called batta-money ; that was all that we got. 
 
 1245. You shared in batta in the same proportion as a captain in a Queen's 
 frigate would have done r — As a commandwr in the navy would have done. 
 
 1 246. Mr. V. Smithr\ Did you observe any jealousy Ix'tween the two services, 
 when em])loyed together? — I did not; thc}^ worked together very cordially. 
 
 1247. Mr. Cobden.'] Was the " Nemesis" an iron vessel?— Yes. 
 
 124.S. Were you in action with her.' — ^Yes; I was ;}2 times, I think, 
 under fire. 
 
 J24(). Had you shot through her? — Yes, on two or three occasions; in one 
 action 1."} shots struck her. 
 
 li.fjo. How do you liki- an iron steamer, for the purposes of fighting? — I 
 liked it. 
 
 1251. Would A'lU rather have a wooden or an iron steamer to go into action 
 with '. — That woidd depend ujjon where I was going to fight : in China I should 
 prefer iron vessels, because they are more efficient ; they did not get into those 
 sad scrapes wliicli the wooden vessels got into ; the latter got ashore, and got 
 damaged, and were obliged to go to Bombay to repair, while the " Nemesis" 
 
 remained
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURITORIE.S. 8-; 
 
 J 
 
 remained the whole of the war, and I could always repair her myself with the Capt ir U ii„il 
 means I had on board. ' 
 
 K.N., F.R.S. 
 
 )2.V-. You ai'e aware that tlu-re is a i^rc-at ])rejudic(' on tlie part of the- 
 Admiralty against iron steamers for war ))urposes ? — Yes. I li;iv(r l)cen very 7 March 1853. 
 much astonished at the result of the trials that have taken plac(! ; thev have 
 altered my opinion with regard to large iron ships for Euro])ean fighting. 
 
 1 2.53. You were examined before a Conunittee on the Steam Nav3-, about 
 three yeai's ago, and in your evidcniee upon that occasion, you said that you 
 would rather go into action with an iron steamer than a wooden one? — Yes. 
 
 1254. Have you seen any reason to change that opinion.' — If I were 
 appointed to a steamer going to Rangoon or to China, in war, I should prefer an 
 iron steamer, similar to the " Nemesis," to a wooden one. 
 
 I 2.").'). Probably nobody else has had more experience of iron steamers under 
 fire than yourself? — I do not know whether there is any one else who has had 
 more. 
 
 1256. You stated that you easily repaired your iron steamer; did you find 
 it to be the case when the vessel was struck with round shot that you could 
 repair an iron steamer better than a wooden one .' — .\s far as regards the 
 damage we received, certainly ; but from w hat has taken place since, it ajjpears 
 that in some instances the damage has been so great, that I have my doubts 
 whether in European warfare it wotdd answer as well. 
 
 1257. Did you find the shots rip the rivets ? — No ; perhaps I was not struck 
 so often with large shot as to cause that. 
 
 1258. ]\Ir. T'. Smith.] AVhat is the difference between European warfare 
 and that in which you were engaged .' — I think in China we did not consider 
 that they were such good marksmen, or that the powder was so good, or that 
 anything else was so good as in Eurojje. 
 
 I 259. You mean that there is an increased liability to injury in European 
 warfare r — Yes. 
 
 1 260. Sir G. Grei/.'] In speaking of the increased efficiency of the iron steam- 
 boats in those waters, did you take into account the light draught of water ? — 
 I took into account the light draught of water ; and their being built in com- 
 partments ; we were constantly getting stove in on the rocks, and 1 only wanted 
 the permission of the admiral for 24 hours to haul on shore and repair, when, 
 if the steamer had been wooden, she Avould have had to leave the station. 
 
 1261. Then the greater efficiency of an iron steamer as compared with a 
 wooden, was rather owing to circumstances peculiar to those seas, and to that 
 warfare, than to any general advantages which an iron steamer possesses 
 over a wooden, for fighting purposes ? — Yes ; I found an iron steamer more 
 efficient in China than a wooden one, and therefore I should, if I were going 
 to China, or to Burmah, prefer an iron to a wooden one. 
 
 1 2(12. Viscount Joceli/u.] In going into action in deep water, would you prefer 
 an iron ship or a wooden one ? — I should have no objection to either. 
 
 1263. If you had your choice in going into action under heavy fire, which 
 would you prefer ?■ — For a small steamer for river pui'poses, 1 should prefer 
 iron ; but if you come to a large steamer for Eui'opean purposes, from the 
 experiments that I have lately seen as to the destruction of iron, I should 
 begin to waver ; perhaps I should prefer a wooden one ; but whether it was in 
 deej) water or in shoal water, I think the great advantage of the iron vessel 
 consists in being built in compartments. I do not think the depth of water 
 signifies, because the whole of a compartment might be stove in ; Init still she 
 would swim. 
 
 1 264. Mr. Hume.'] As regards splinters ; did you find, on those occasions, 
 when the shot came through your vessel, that tliere was anything in the way 
 of splinters that did any injury .' — No, 1 ditl not find that. One shot in i)assing 
 through, left the iron it displaced still attached, and another shot took a piece 
 clean out, and made a round hole. 
 
 1265. Did any of them I'ip up the rivets that fastened the sheets together ? 
 — No ; not that I remember. 
 
 1 266. Mr. Cohdrn.] When you say that you waver in your opinion as to 
 whether you would prefer an iron to a wooden steamer in deep water, do you 
 mean to say that in European warfare you would feel any objection or hesitation 
 in going into action in an iron steamer? — None at all. 
 
 12(17. ^Iv. Hume.] Looking at the service which is required from the navy 
 0.10. L 3 in
 
 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Capt. /K. H. Hall, in India general!}', do you not consider that iron vessels generally are prefer- 
 R.N.jF.R.s. able, and less liable to accident than wooden-built ships? — I should always for 
 
 -■ Indian warfare have at least half iron ships. 
 
 7 March 1853. ,^(^s. -^{j. ^uigf-]^ Were the shot wliich struck the " Nemesis" of large or 
 
 small calibre ? — Not very large ; I suppose 12-pounders. 
 
 1269. Mr. Hume.'] Did you find any difficulty in filling up your number of 
 seamen, seeing that you could increase the wages to 3/. 10. y., or more? — 
 I found very great difficulty in getting men almost at any wages in China. 
 
 1270. Has any api)lication been made on your behalf for honours, seeing 
 that your services were equalh' distinguished with those officers of the Royal 
 navy who have received honours ? — There vi^as a private application made to 
 Sir John Hobhouse, who was at the head of the Board of Control, when the 
 " Nemesis "' came home. 
 
 1271. Did the Court of Directox's make no application on your behalf >. — A'ot 
 that 1 am aware of. 
 
 1272. How many years were you in the navy before you took the command 
 of the " Nemesis " ? — About 25 years. 
 
 127:;. Mr. Elliot.'] Were you a commander at that time, or a post captain? 
 — I was not either ; I have been promoted since. I was made a post captain 
 out of the Queen's yacht. 
 
 1274. Were there other commanders who gained the distinction of C. B. at 
 that time ? — I think there were 14 or 15 C. B.'s made altogether for that war. 
 
 1275. Were they of the rank of commander? — No; they never got the 
 C. B. till they were of the rank of post captain. 
 
 1 270. Sir G. Grey.'] I understood you to say that you were a lieutenant in 
 the navy at the time you commanded the " Nemesis " ? — I was a master in 
 the navy when I took conunand of the " Nemesis," but while I was in her 1 
 was made a lieutenant for my services, by Order in Council. 
 
 1277. On the termination of the Chinese war, when you gave up tlie com- 
 mand of the " Nemesis," were you promoted to the rank of a commander ? — 
 I was ; the time I passed as lieutenant on board the '' Nemesis " was allowed to 
 count, by Order in Council ; and I was then promoted by the Admiralty to the 
 rank of commander. 
 
 1276. You were made a commander for vour services in China? — Yes. 
 
 1279. ^^^ you were afterwards in the Queen's yacht, and you then obtained 
 the rank of post captain ? — Yes. 
 
 J 280. Sir J . Hogy.] You said 1:hat several officers, after they were made post 
 captains, got the honour of C. B. ; at the time this service was performed, for 
 which that honour was granted, were they not of the rank of commander, and 
 did they not get the C. B. on becoming qualified for it by getting the rank of 
 post captain? — 1 think most of the captains that obtained the C. B. for their 
 services in China had arrived at the rank of post captain. 
 
 1261. They were post captains when the service was performed.' — They 
 were post captains when tliey left China. 
 
 ] 282. W ere there several who could not get the honour of the C. B., because 
 at the time the service was performed they had not obtained the necessary 
 rank, but who upon subsequently obtaining the rank got the honour ? — I think 
 that was the case. 
 
 Jrdaseer Cursetjee, Esq., f.r.s., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 A. Cursetjee, Esq. 12 S3. Clunrman.'] ARE you in the service of the East India Company under 
 ^•"■s- the Bombay Government?—! am. 
 
 12S4. What office do you hold at Bombay? — Chief Engineer and Inspector 
 of .Machinery. 
 
 r2(Sj. Cnder what circumstances are you now in this country? — On sick 
 leave. 
 
 1280. Are you at tlu" head of that department in the dockyard ;it Bombay? 
 — I am. 
 
 1 287. Under whose orders do you act ? — The commander-in-chief of the 
 Indian navv. 
 
 12S8. What are your duties? — To inspect all the government vessels in 
 Bombay, and to superintend the machinery, and keep them in proper order and 
 repair them. 
 
 1289. What
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TrRRITOIiTES. 87 
 
 12S9. What number of men are employed in )'our department r— It varies A. Curietjee,Eb(j. 
 accordin<i- to tin- nature of tlie work; sometimes ">()(), soinctiirKs GOo or 700. f.r.s. 
 
 1 2QO. Wliat i)roporti()n of tliciu are Europeans, and what i)roportiun arc ^ March iSi'' 
 natives uf India? — Mostly natives, except the Europeans who are superin- 
 tendents of tlic differi'nt works ; the engineers of the sea-going vessels when 
 they arc on shore work in the factory. 
 
 121)1. Are the foremen of the different workshops Europeans ?— Yes. 
 
 ■1-202. How long have yon been cniiiloycd in that particular department: — 
 Ever since 1841, when 1 got the appointment. 
 
 1293. How did you obtain that appointment ?— I came to this country to 
 finish n y education for my ])rofcssi()n, and at that time there ^va^ an a(hertise- 
 ment issued for a chief engineer and insj)ector of machinery, and I was a can- 
 didate, and Europeans with me in tliis country ; the choice fell upon me and 
 I received the ai)])ointm(nt. 
 
 1294. Had you been previously employed in that department in llombay 
 before you came here r — I had paid a good deal of attention to steam engi- 
 neering at Bombay ; by the orders of the Government I was placed under the 
 Mint engineer. 
 
 120,5. When were vou first employed under the Bombay Government .' — In 
 1822"^or 1823, as a shipwright. 
 
 1296. What age were you then ? — About 14 or 15. 
 
 i2(/7. Did you subsequently apply your studies specially to the engineering 
 department ? — I was raised to the situation of assistant builder in about 1832, 
 and when steam navigation began, at the request of the master builder, who was 
 at my head, I was placed by the Government under the Mint engineer. 
 
 1298. Do you consider the steam factory at Bombay to be perfectly efficient 
 for the purposes for which it is used r — Quite efficient for every purpose. 
 
 1299. Have you consti-ucted any steam-engines there? — Not to any great 
 extent. 
 
 1300. What sized steam-engine have you constructed?- — We have con- 
 structed a pair of small ones for our own purposes in the factory, about 10 or 
 15 horse engines. 
 
 1301. Do you think that the establishment there woidd be capable of manu- 
 facturing large steam-engines ? — Yes. 
 
 1302. As good as those made in England? — Yes. 
 
 1303. Have you lately visited the United States? — Yes. 
 
 1 31 14. Do you think that the steam factory at Bombay is capable of manu- 
 facturing large steam engines as good as those made in the United States r — Yes. 
 
 1305. Mr. Hmne.] Under whom is the engineering department in Bombay? 
 — It is under me. 
 
 1306. Chair man. "[ Do you make steam boilers there ? — Y'es, a great many. 
 
 1307. Are iron ships built at Bombay? — None built there, but we cut and 
 lengthen a great many. 
 
 1308. The engines are sent out from England ready made? — Yes. 
 
 1309. You have not yet built an iron ship there? — No, we have not. 
 
 1310. You could build one? — Yes, we could. 
 
 1311. Are those small engines, which you have constructed, marine engines ? 
 — On the princi])le of marine engines. 
 
 1312. \\ ould it be cheaper to construct engines in Bombay or in England? 
 — I think it would be cheaper in Bombav. 
 
 1313. Andiron ships .'—Iron ships might be a little cheaper, but we have 
 had no exi)erienee in l)uilding iron ships vet. 
 
 1314. The iron would alf come from England "—Yes, but the workmanship 
 is very cheap there, in comparison with what it is in England. 
 
 131,5. The native workmen ? — Yes. 
 
 1316. Mr. Hume..'] \\'hat are the comparative wages there and here .— 
 Taking the case of boiler-makers, we have European boiler- makers now at 200 
 rupees a month ; the native boikr-n;akers get Hi rupees a month. 
 
 1317. Chairman.'] With regard to building timber ships, where do you get 
 the timber from ?— From the" Malabar coast; some from the northern coast 
 above Bombay. 
 
 1315. All the timber is teak .'-All teak, for building purposes. 
 
 1 3 1 Q. What is your Idea as to the comi)arative economy of building teak 
 
 ■ ships, or building here of oak?— Teak ships built in India last a very long time ; 
 
 0.10. L4 ^^'"''■'^
 
 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Curse/jee, Esq. I have knovvn them last 50 or (50 years, and they were then just as good as 
 F. U.S. ever, -while English ships never last more than seven to ten years. 
 
 ij-^*"- Where do you get your spars from : — Some from the Malabar coast, 
 
 Miircli 1853. j;ome trom Singajjore, ancl some from England. 
 
 1321. Are the spars wliich you get in India as good as those which you get 
 from England .- — Not quite so good, but they are cheaper. 
 
 ^3•2•2. Where do you get your coal from, for your smithies and workshops : — 
 All from England. 
 
 ];^23. You get your iron from England, and your coal from England ? — Yes. 
 1324. Yet you think it would be cheaper to build iron ships there than 
 in England ?-— Yes. 
 
 132,',. What is your opinion as to the general character of the engines and 
 machinery of the vessels now in the Indian service ? — They are equally as good 
 as what I have seen in this country and in America ; a great many of them are 
 made by the same makei's who make for Her Majesty's service. 
 
 1326. And kept in as good repair and condition r — Yes. 
 
 1327. Have you found, of late years, that you could employ more natives in 
 proportion to Europeans than when you first entered the service .- — Yes ; we 
 emjjloy a great many now ; we bind them apprentices, and pay them wages, 
 and teach them, and as they make progress we increase them in rank ; some of 
 them are promoted now to second-class engineers. 
 
 1328. Is there a disposition to employ them as much as possible ? — Every 
 disposition, and to give them every encouragement to improve, by teaching 
 them, and giving them education, and we pay them wages at the same time. 
 
 132;). With regard to war steamers, do y(ni think that they can be built as 
 cheap with you as they can in Englanil ? — I think a little cheaper. 
 
 1330. On account of the lower rate of wages? — Yes. 
 
 1331. And there have been sailing vessels built ?— Yes, and steamers too. 
 
 1332. Is yours the only Government engine factory in India, oris there any 
 other ? — There is no other steam factory in Bombay for repairing machinery 
 except in Mint, on a small scale. The Peninsular and Oriental Company have 
 established a factory, but on a ver}^ small scale ; that is in Bombay, about two 
 miles from the Company's dockyard at a place called Masayon. 
 
 1333. Are there any other private building j-ards or docks ?— No. 
 
 1334. Is not there one on the Malabar coast ? — Yes, there is one at Damaun, 
 a Portuguese settlement, and one in Surat, and some on the INIalabar coast at 
 a place called Cochin, and other places. 
 
 1335. Have you, from your experience, any suggestion to make for the 
 purpose of giving increased efficiency to the dockyard at Bombay or to the 
 factory system there r — They have got every efficiency that I know of; some 
 additional machinery was wanted, which I requested of the Honourable Courts 
 and they have granted it. 
 
 133(1. ''^h- ,/. Ho(f(j-\ You wei-e first employed by the Bombay Government as 
 a shipwright ? — Yes. 
 
 ',>.']7- When vou came to England to complete your education I believe the 
 Government of India allowed you, during all the time of your absence, the pay 
 of your situation and a further sum to pay your expenses in England during 
 the period of your residence here r — Yes, thev did. 
 
 I y;^)^. I believe there is a relation of yours in this country now for the pur- 
 pose of completing his education, who is also allowed to retain his situation 
 and his jjay, and who also receives some assistance to pay his expenses while 
 con)pleting his education 'I — Yes, that is my own son. 
 
 1.339- You stated you were at the head of the establishment at Bombay ; are 
 there an}' Etirojx'ans employed under you ? — A great many. 
 
 1340. Mr. Il(irdin/jc.\ C;'.n you state how many? — It varies a great deal; 
 sometimes the engineers arc on naval service, and when they are not employed 
 in the siiips, there are a great many of them in tlie steam factory, sometimes 
 15 or 20 or 25. 
 
 1341. Sir ./. //o////.] Wiiat is the name of your first assistant? — ^Mr. 
 M'Ljircn. 
 
 1342. lie is a rather distinguished man :— Yes. 
 ^'i'^.j- With a large salary? — Yes. 
 
 1344. He is under your orders ? — He is. 
 
 1345. Mr. Il<irdiii(jc.\ How many second-class engineers are there who are 
 
 natives .^
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 89 
 
 natives ?— There are three classes of engineers come out of this county, the A. Cwseijee, ILm. 
 first, second, ami third class ; the number varies ver}'^ much. ' r. it. s! 
 
 1 346. Are there any natives in tlie first class? — The natives, or country trained 
 
 have not arrived at the first class; some of them have arrived at the second. 7 Marcli 1853, 
 
 1347. How many natives are there in the second class ?— To the best of my 
 recollection, more than half a dozen ; they are Europeans, born in the country, 
 Portuij;uesc, and all castes. 
 
 1348. How many natives are there in the third class r — A much lar^-er pro- 
 portion, about 10 to If) or more. 
 
 1 34(). Are there any Europeans in tlie third class ! — A great many. 
 
 1 ;5;i(). Mhat is the pro])ortion of natives to Europeans in that class? — I should 
 say about one-third natives, or country trained. 
 
 1 ;5.', I . What wages does a second-class engineer get, a native ? — A native 
 second-class engineer gets about 125 rupees a month. 
 
 1352. How much does a European get? — About 125 rujjees a month, or 
 same as native, except the steam money and i)ension. 
 
 13,53. Have you found the native engineers who have been raised to that 
 rank very efficient ? — Aery efficient. 
 
 i3.'54. Sir ,/. Hoff/j.] What is your own salary ?— Six hundred rupees a 
 month. 
 
 i.J.'i.';- What is the salary of your first assistant? — Six hundred rupees a 
 month. 
 
 1 3 ',(). Mr. Htme.'] What class of natives ai-e employed by you ? — Parsees, 
 Hindoos, Mussuhnen, all classes, including Christians half-caste." 
 
 1357. Have you found any difficulty in obtaining any number of workmen 
 that you require for your purpose ? — We had some difficulty when we were 
 first established : but now we have brought up a great many "men we do not 
 find so much difficulty. 
 
 1358. Is there any school on the establishment in Bombay for the special 
 education of the artificers or engineers ? — There is a regular school in the dock- 
 yard, to teach them to read and write, also a schoolmaster attached to the 
 receiving ship, to instruct engineer apprentices. 
 
 13,-iq. Is there any established in Bombay out of the dock vard ?— There are 
 a great many schools in Bombay. 
 
 13(10. Are there schools for engineering? — Not any specially for engineering. 
 
 1361. Sir J. Hogg.] Have you visited many of the dockyards and steam- 
 engine factories in England since you arrived here 'I — Yes, 1 have, a great many, 
 almost all the principal factories. 
 
 1362. Both in England and in Scotland? — Both in England and in Scotland. 
 
 1363. And for the same purpose you proceeded to America? — Yes. 
 
 1364. And you examined all the dockyards and factories in that country? — 
 All the principal factories and dockyards in America. 
 
 136,5. Mr. Hume.'] What is your opinion as to tlie comparative efficiency of 
 the dockyards in the United States, and here? -There is no comparison with 
 our dockyards here in magnitude and in efficiency. 
 
 1366. Have you visited Calcutta? — I liave not. 
 
 1367. What is the state of efficiency of the dockyard at Bombay as compared 
 with the dockyards here ? — It is very efficient as far as the dockyard is con- 
 cerned ; just as good as any dockyards I have seen here. 
 
 1368. Have you been in any private building-yards here ? — Yes. 
 
 1369. Comparing any private yards with yours at Bombay, what would you 
 say r — No private }'ard liere is equal to our yard. 
 
 1370. Sir G. Grey.'] You said that nothing but repairing has been done in 
 your steam factory at Bombay ; why have not engines been made ? — Because 
 we had so much to do ; we can scarcely get through what we have to do. 
 
 1371. If you were to build steam-engines as well as repair them, you would 
 have to increase the establishment ? — Yes. Even in this country Her Majesty's 
 dockyards never build their own engines. 
 
 1372. Then you do not recommend that engines should be built there? — 
 I could do it if the establishment were augmented. 
 
 1373. Sir T. II. Maddock.] Do you dejiend entirely for the coal which you 
 use upon the supjily which is sent from England ? — Yes. 
 
 1374. Have you never had occa-ion to try other coal which is found in India, 
 or which comes from Borneo ? — We had some coal from Nerbudda, and those 
 
 0.10. M coals,.
 
 go MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. Cursetjee, Esq., coals, and the first sample was very good and very fine coal, but latterly the 
 
 F. R- s. samples came with a great deal of mixture of other matter, so that it was not 
 
 so good, and the cost was nearly three times as much as what we get from 
 
 7 March 1853. England. 
 
 1375. Was that in consequence of the expense of carriage? — It was the 
 expense of carriage. 
 
 1376. Have you never seen the coal from Borneo and fi-om Labuan r-r-I have 
 seen some samples from Borneo. 
 
 1377. What is the quahty of that coal? — Some of it appears to be very good 
 coal. 
 
 1378. Sir C. Wood.] What is the price as compared with English coal ? — I do 
 not know the price of that. 
 
 1379. Sir 7'. //. Mac/dock.] With regard to iron, do you work up any iron 
 which is the produce of India, or do you depend entirely upon England for your 
 supply of iron? — We depend entirely upon England, but there is a manufac- 
 tory near Madras, called Porto Novo. 
 
 1380. Did you never obtain any iron from Porto Novo? — We had some 
 samples ; we tried it. 
 
 1381. "What is the comparative pi-ice of English coal at Bombay and here? — 
 It is almost as cheap at Bombay as it is here. 
 
 1382. Sir T. H. Maddock'] What is the length of the largest dock at 
 Bombay for the reception of ii'on or other steam- vessels ; will the dock take in 
 a three-decker ? — Yes ; we have built a great many 80-gun ships in our dock, 
 and we have since lengthened the dock, and they are no\v lengthening it again 
 the third time, since I left, in order to receive the largest steamers ; the largest 
 dock we have is 225 feet long, and that has been increased since I left ; it is 
 63 feet wide between the gates. 
 
 1383. Mr. Hordinge^ Where do you get your wood for the masts from? — 
 From Singapore, from the Malabar coast, and some from England. 
 
 1384. Sir C. Wood.] What sort of wood for masts do you get from the 
 Malabar coast ? — Poon. 
 
 1 385. Do you make the masts of teak ? — No ; we make the masts of poon. 
 
 1386. Mr. V. Smith.] Is that a lighter wood than teak ? — It is much lighter. 
 
 1387. CItairman.] Is it as light as pine ?— Not quite. 
 
 1388. Viscount Jocdyn?\ Do you get that on the Malabar coast ? — Yes. 
 
 1389. Sir C. Wood.] Can you depend upon the supply of good teak now from 
 the Malabar coast ? — Yes, there is a great deal now supplied from the Malabar 
 coast. 
 
 1390. As much as formerly? — Yes. 
 
 1391. Viscount /oce///?i.] What are the arrangements about wood on the 
 M ahibar coast ; are there agents for the Government employed in cutting the 
 wood, or is it brought to market by the natives ? — There was an agent of the 
 Government there ^hen Her Majesty's ships were building at Bombay, to pur- 
 chase wood and send it to Bombay ; that agency has lately been removed. 
 
 1392. How is it done now ? — The merchants bring it into the market. 
 
 1393. Sir C. Wood.] Do you remember the building of those ships which 
 were built for the English navy at Bombay ! — Yes. 
 
 1394. How many were built ? — A great many. 
 
 1395. Has not that practice now been given up? — Yes. 
 
 i39(i. Mr. Elliot.] \\ hat time do you reckon that a teak ship ought to last 
 upon the average ?~I have known a shij) now in existence more than 60 years. 
 
 1397. But upon the averivge, what would 3^ou reckon as the duration of a 
 teak ship ? — I never saw a teak shi[) built in Bombay, Ijut some ships built at 
 Coast were condemned, after a long time in use ; coudenmed for I'ottenness or 
 old age.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 9' 
 
 Jovis, 10° die Martii, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PUBSENT. 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 
 Mr. Herries. 
 
 Mr. Spoon^r. 
 
 Mr. Hard in ge. 
 
 Sir James \V. Hogg. 
 
 Lord John Russell. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Mr. Muiiiiles. 
 
 Sir Cliarles Wood. 
 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Sir T. Herbert Madducli. 
 
 Mr. Vuruun Sinitii. 
 
 Lfird Jocelyii. 
 
 Mr. Labouchere. 
 
 Mr. Cobdt-n. 
 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 
 Mr. Bailiie. 
 
 Sir George Grey. 
 
 Mr. Bankes. 
 
 Mr. Hume. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 David Hill, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 1398. Chairman.'] WILL you state to the Committee what situation you David Hi!', Esq. 
 
 hold?— I am Assistant E.\aininer of Indian Correspondence in the East India 
 House, and 1 am in charge of the Judicial Department. 
 
 1399. How long have you held that ofBce ? — Twenty-one years. 
 
 1400. Were you previously resident in India? — I was in the Company's 
 civil service for 24 years in India. 
 
 1401. In what Presidency? — Madras. 
 
 1402. Will you, shortly, state to the Committee the system of judicature in 
 India, describing it first as it exists at the Presidency towns ? — The system 
 consists of two separate parts, one for the Presidency towns, and one for the 
 provinces. The Presidency town system is founded mainly upon Acts of Par- 
 liament and Royal letters patent, charters, and commissions to judges. It is 
 mainly put in motion by the home authorities. The other system depends 
 almost entirely upon local legislation and authority. 
 
 1403. With regard to the Presidency towns, what are the existing tribunals: 
 — At each Presidency town there is a Supreme Court of Judicature. By its 
 constitution, it has a chief justice and two puisne judges ; but, in point of fact, 
 for the last 15 or 16 years, the second puisne judgeship at Madras and Bombay 
 has never been filled up. The court practically consists only of two judges. 
 
 1404. In Madras and Bombay it consists of two judges ? — Yes. 
 
 1405. In Calcutta it consists of three ? — Yes. By their constitution, they all 
 consist of the same number. The constitutional formation of the court is the 
 same in all three Presidencies ; but the third appointment has not been filled 
 up for 15 or 16 years at the two subordinate Presidencies. 
 
 i40t"). All those appointments are made by the Crown, are they not? — The\- 
 are luade by the Crown from members of the legal profession, either in England, 
 in Ireland, or, I believe, in Scotland. No such appointment has ever taken 
 place from Scotland, though the law, I believe, allows it. 
 
 1407. Are the appointments dui'ing good behaviour? — During pleasure; in 
 point of fact, during good behaviour ; but the judges are liable to be recalled, 
 they have been recalled in one or two instances. 
 
 140S. Will you state to the Committee what is the nature of the causes 
 which come before the Supreme Court ? — The Supreme Court has jurisdiction 
 locally over the Presidency town and personally over all British-born subjects 
 throughout the limits of the territory subject to the Presidency. Its jarii- 
 diction is local for the Presidency town and personal for all British-born 
 subjects. 
 
 1409. Both criminal and civil jurisdiction ? — Both criminal and civil. 
 
 u.io. M 2 1410. Does 
 
 10 March 1853,
 
 92 MliNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 David Hill Esq 1410. Doi's it receive appeals from other courts: — In one instance, that of 
 L_ the Small Cause Court, there is something in the nature of an appeal ; hut 
 
 10 March 1S53. there are no other subordinate courts belonging to that system from which 
 appeals could come. 
 
 1411. Will you explain what other tribunals there are? — In 1850 a Small 
 Cause Court was established in lieu of a Court of Requests, whicli had long 
 before existed. The Small Cause Court is founded upon the model of the 
 English County Coin-t ; it has jurisdiction to the extent of 500 rupees, or 50 I. 
 It was only established in the beginning of 1850: it consists of one barrister 
 and two other commissioners. The number of commissioners may be varied 
 at the discretion of the Government ; but it has been so constituted. One 
 barrister is at the head of the court and there are two commissioners, one of 
 the two being a native. I have brought with me a memorandum, showing the 
 operation of that court for the first six months, the only Return received at 
 home, which shows that it has been operating with extraordinary efficiency 
 and success. The business which has been transacted has been on a very large 
 scale, though the individual causes are of very small amount. — (The same was 
 Vide Appendix, delivered iti.) 
 
 141-2. Are the Committee to understand that no appeal from the Small Cause 
 Court is allowed r — It is not exactly in the nature of an a'ppeal. Any case 
 involving a question of law may, with the concurrence of a judge of the 
 Supreme Court, be transferred to that court; no case, however, under 100 
 rupees is open to be so transferred; if it is under 100 rupees it must be 
 decided summarily ; the court merely notes the plaint and the answer. The 
 judges of the Supreme Court may at any time sit in the Supreme Court as 
 judges of the County Court : they may act under the provisions of this special 
 Act of the local Legislature as a Small Cause Court, instead of acting as the 
 Supreme Court, and decide those small causes summarily. 
 
 1413. Will you state how that court is composed ?— One English barrister is 
 at the head of it ; the second is a gentleman who has been many years employed 
 as a commissioner of the former Court of Requests, and the third is a native. 
 
 1414. There is no jury r — No jury. 
 
 1415. Are there only two judges? — There are three judges, Ijut they sit 
 separately, and cases which involve questions of law are agreed among them- 
 selves to be handed over to the barrister to be decided. 
 
 1416. Your answers with respect to the Small Cause Court apply to Cal- 
 cutta ?~ Exclusively. 
 
 1417. Is there any difference in the system existing in Madras and Bombay ? 
 — Similar courts have been established there, but we have no accounts in this 
 country of the operation of those courts, further than that in a general way 
 They have operated successfully. 
 
 1418. You know how they are composed? — Yes. 
 
 1419. What is the composition of the Small Cause Court in Madras? — At 
 Madras it is not a lawyer who is at the head of it : a member of the legal ])ro- 
 fession was placed at the head of it at first, but, in consequence of the long 
 ])revious service of tiie individual who had been at the head of the Court of 
 Recpiests before, his claim to consideration was brought to the notice of tlie 
 Court of Directors and their view was that, Tuider all tlie circumstances, it was 
 better that he should resume the same situation whic^h he had formerly held at 
 the head of the new court : he is not a member of the legal profession, but he 
 had been above 20 years at the head of the Court of Requests and is very highly 
 esteemed as a most efficient public servant. 
 
 1420. Are the apjjointments of the judges of the Small Cause Court made 
 by the Governor in Council ? — Yes, they are. 
 
 1421. Are they likewise during his pleasure ? —They are. 
 
 1422. Is there any difference in the system existing in Bombay? — The Act 
 is the same; it apphes to all the three Presidene-ies : there is one Act for all 
 the three Presidencies. 
 
 1423. Is there any other tribunal or judicial officer except those 3'ou have 
 named in ihe Presidency towns? — The Government appoints the number of 
 justices of the peace which may be recpiired : there usually are three or four I 
 tliiiik at (.'alcutta ; as justices of the peace they exercise jurisdiction in all cases 
 of assault and, under a particular Act lately passed to relieve the sessions of the 
 Sui)reme Court, they have jurisdiction in larcenies to a very limited amount, 
 
 only
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 93 
 
 only 20 ni))('cs : the justices of the peace try those ))etty hirccnies niul iilso 
 assaults : that relieves the Supreme Court in its criininal jurisdiction. There are 
 no other judicial tribimals within tlie Presidency towns. 
 
 14_'4. The appointment of justices of the peace is In' the Governor-creneral in 
 Council ? — Yes. 
 
 142",. Are they likewise durini^ ))leasure ? — They are included in a ^;eiu*ral 
 connnission of the pe;i(;e, wliich is issued l)y the Supreme Court at the instance 
 of the Government, l)ut the selection of names from this general commission 
 and the ap])()intmeiit to a salaried office is made by the (Jovernment. 
 
 14'2(). Are they natives or Eurojieans .'— There generally has been one native 
 of late years. For upwards of 20 years the natives have been eligible to be in 
 the connnission of the ))eaci' and to serve on grand juries and on pettv juries. 
 There is no fixed rule, but there generally has l)een one native justice of the 
 peace. 
 
 1427. What is the law whit-li is administered in the Presidency towns ? — The 
 general law is the law of England, but the law as applicable to Mahoiaedans and 
 Hindoos, in all matters relating to caste, to marriage, to succession and inheri- 
 tan(;e, and to rcliiiious institutions, is the law of their religion : tlie Supreme 
 Court is ri'quired by statute to administer to Mahomedans and Hindoos their 
 own law in those matters: in matters of contract the law is the same as 
 with us. 
 
 1428. Have you any observation to make to the Committee which v^ill 
 supply tliera with any information as regards the system of judicature existing 
 in the Presidency towns ? — As to the operations of the Suprenae Court the 
 Company's officers have no knowledge. The judges of the court, or tlie prac- 
 titioners, would be able to speak to the extent of business transacted and the 
 mode in which it is done :. it is done under English rules and the India 
 House has no information respecting it. 
 
 1429. Will you explain now to the Committee what the system in the 
 provinces is ? — The system in the provinces is that all the Company's 
 territories are ])arcelled out into districts called zillahs : a zillah commonly 
 comprises 800,000 or 1,000,000 iidiabitants : over that zillah is placed an 
 officer of the Company's civil service exercising the functions of a civil and 
 criiiiinal or sessions judge, generally within the same range within which revenue 
 authority is exercised by the collectors. The collector's jurisdiction is 
 generally conterminous with that of the judge, and the collector in all parts of 
 India except the Lower Provinces of Bengal holds the office of magistrate 
 also, exercising certain limited criminal powers, and general authority over 
 the police within that range : at the Presidency the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut 
 is the chief civil court, exercising, as a Board, general superintendence 
 and authority over those local judges, and, as a court, exercising appellate 
 jurisdiction o^•er their judicial acts. 
 
 1430. How is that sudder court composed r— The sudder court is composed, 
 like others, of the Company's civil servants. In Calcutta there are five at 
 present. The ])ermanent constitution of the court is considered not to 
 extend beyond four, but there are five judges at present exercising ap])el- 
 late jurisdiction in the last resort in India. An appeal lies from their 
 decisions, if the amount exceeds 10,000 rupees, to the Queen in Council. 
 Under the zillah judge there are native judges of different denominations exer- 
 cising different scales of jurisdiction : the principal sudder amin is the highest; 
 the sudder amin the next grade, and the moonsitf under him. The extent 
 of the raoonsiff's authority varies in different parts of India : his juris- 
 diction extends to 300 rupees in Bengal ; the sudder amin's extends to 
 1,000 rupees ; the principal sudder amin's is unlimited. The zillah court's 
 jurisdiction begins at 5,000 rupees and is unlimited. A file is kept by the 
 zillah judge and he distributes the cases to the principal suikU-r amins, 
 or retains them for his own decision, as I suppose is the case here in the Court 
 of Chancery, the Lord Chancellor distributing the cases to the Mce-Chan- 
 cellors. An ajjpeal lies to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut : the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut mav also if they see cause call uj) any original case exceeding 
 10,000 rupees and exercise an original jurisdiction ; but they never do so. 
 I am not aware of any case of the kind which has occurred. There always 
 lies a second or special appeal to the Sudder Dewanny Adawhit from any 
 -decision which they may have reason to consider inconsistent with the law 
 
 0,10. M ? or
 
 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ■id Hill. E^q. Or the usaae or practice of the courts : from any court whatever, however low 
 
 . its jurisdiction. If they ])elieve that tl.c; decision in the tirst appeal has been at 
 
 March 1853. variance with the law or the usage or the practice of the courts, it is compe- 
 tent to the chief court, as it would be here in the Court of Queen's Bench, to 
 call the cause uj) before them. The jurisdiction of native judges in the 
 other Presidencies is not exactlv the same : it runs higher. The moonsiff' s 
 jurisdiction at Madras, instead of 300 rupees, reaches as high as 1 ,000 rupees : 
 the sudder amin's as high as 2,500 ru])ees : the principal sudder amin tries 
 cases not exceeding 10,000 rupees. Those are only differences of detail, but 
 the general constitution and operation of the courts are very much the same. 
 The average amount of the c;ises tried by nioonsiffs and judges of the lowest 
 jurisdiction at Madras does not exceed 32 rupees. In Bengal the average 
 value does not exceed 60 rupees. Of the original jurisdiction exercised by 
 those tribunals there is only about one per cent, which is exercised by Euro- 
 pean or English judges, the Company's covenanted servants : including appeal 
 cases, it is between six and seven per cent. ; the remainder, comprising both 
 appeals and original cases, is done by natives. Taking the original cases only 
 there is only one per cent, done by English judges. 
 
 1431. The Sudder Court is entirely composed of Europeans ? — It is. 
 
 1432. .And the Zillah Coui't likewise ? — Yes. 
 
 1433. Therefore it is the tribunals under those two highest courts which are 
 composed principally of uncovenanted servants ? — Yes. 
 
 1434. You have hitherto been referring to the civil judicature of the pro- 
 vinces ; will you state what the system of criminal judicature is ? — The tribunals, 
 exce])ting the lower class of natives, are the same. The Sudder Dewanny 
 Adiiwlut, under a different designation, namely, the Nizamut Adawlut, also exer- 
 cises criminal jurisdiction. The zillah judge exercises criiTiinal jurisdiction 
 within the range of the zillah. The magistrate, who in most parts of India is 
 also collector, exercises a limited jurisdiction, varying in different parts of 
 India ; petty offences, assaults, and thefts are tried by him or by his assistants : 
 in the more heinous cases the offenders are committed by him to be tried before 
 the sessions judge. The sessions judge has authority to try any case; but 
 capital sentences or sentences of transportation must be submitted to the 
 Nizamut .Adawlut for confirmation. 
 
 i43.> Is the sessions judge a covenanted servant of the Company? — The 
 sessions judge is the zillah judge : the same individual holds the two offices : 
 natives and uncovenanted servants of the Company exercise also in some cases 
 very considerable jurisdiction, as assistants to the n agistrates. There are 
 deputy magistrates appointed throughout the Bengal provinces now who are 
 uncovenanted officers and when duly qualified are authorised by the Govern- 
 ment to exercise all the jurisdiction of a magistrate, wliieh is limited ; but it 
 amounts to the power of impi-isonment for a year. 
 
 1 436. Those are uncovenanted servants, or natives of all classes, are they ? — 
 Yes. The object of the Government is, as far as they can, that tliey shall be 
 natives, Mahomedans or Hindoos ; but they did not find them at first so apt 
 for all the duties of a magistrate and a great manj^ of them have been half- 
 castes, and some English. 
 
 1437. Are all those judicial officers who are uncovenanted servants and 
 natives appointed by the Governor in Council ? — The lower grades are not so : 
 they are selected by the zillah judge in most cases ; his nomination recjuires 
 the sanction of the Sudder Court at the Presidency. He selects an individual 
 to fill tlie office, and submits the name for the sanction of the sujjerior court. 
 The iiigher native judicial officers require the sanction of the Government : 
 their names are submitted by the Sudder Court to the Government. The sala- 
 ries are on a very moderate scale : as low, in some cases, as 50 rupees, or 5/. a 
 month : all the salaries in India are paid by the month ; they are as low as 50 
 rupees, but generally they vary from 70 or 80 rupees, up to 150 rupees a month. 
 The salary of the next grade, the sudder ameen, is from 150 to 250 rupees ; that 
 of the liighest class is from 400 to GOO rupees. 
 
 1438. What is the criminal law which is administered in the provinces ? — 
 The foundation of thi; criminal law administered by the courts was the Maho- 
 niedan law ; but it has been .so modified by the practice of our courts, through 
 a long course of years, and by the enactments of the local government, that it 
 has lost that character in a great measure : it is a law regulated by the 
 
 reason
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN 1 ElUllTOllIES. 
 
 95 
 
 reason of the thing 
 
 it is usually very moderatt; in its sanctions. The Maho- 
 mwlan law involved mutilations, and other harsh i)unishnients, and a nuiii})er 
 of very capricious rules of evidence : wherever the provi.sions of the Mahouiedan 
 law have been found contraiy to humanity, or to what was looked on as a 
 reasonable rule, they have been niodilieil by the Government and the law has 
 now come to be one very much of our own making. 
 
 1430. What is the character of the punishments inflicted on offenders ? — 
 Capital punishment to a limited extent : by the last return we have, it appears 
 that there were 145 capital punishments inflicted all over India in one vear. 
 
 1440. In what year was that ? — 1850. 
 
 1 441 . \A hat is the nature of the capital punishment r — Hanging : there were 
 3U() cases of transportation for life, transportation always being for life : ])unish- 
 ment by imprisonment is carried to a very great extent. The difficulty which 
 is found everywhere else of discovering any suitable secondary punishmentsj 
 is found in a greater degree in India : the difficulty is enhanced very much by 
 the climate and by other circumstances. 
 
 1442. To what place are the criminals transported? — To the eastern settle- 
 ments, to the Straits of Malacca, and the Tenasserim Coast, the east coast of 
 the Bay of Bengal. 
 
 1443. To what crimes is capital punishment applied? — To murder only. 
 
 1444. ^Ir. Matigks.] And to murder only of the worst kind? — Generally: 
 the punishment is very moderately applied. 
 
 1445. Chairmmi.~\ Have you any further papers beyond what have been laid 
 before the Committee that will show the amount of business which has come 
 before the courts of India ? — I will put in two statements, one showing the 
 civil business for two years. It was prepared with a view of showing v. hat the 
 operation of the courts had been at the close of the last Charter .\et in the 
 year 1833, and what it was at the latest period to which complete returns 
 were received ; the two years compared are 1833 and 1849; this is simply a 
 statement of the business transacted by each of the several courts in those two 
 years. I have also brought a similar statement for the same yeai's, 1 833 and 
 J 849, of the criminal business transacted by the several tribunals under the 
 (Ufferent Presidencies.— (T/^t? same xvere deliccred in.) 
 
 1446. Have you any statement which will exhibit to the Committee the num- 
 ber of appeals from the Supreme Court and the Sudder Courts to tlu- Ciueen 
 in Council r — Upon inquiry I find that we have not the means of furnishing 
 any such statement ; the infoi-mation exists at the Frivy Council Office. 
 
 1447. Mr. Elliot.] Imprisonment for life used to be a punishment very much 
 resorted to, did not it? — Yes. 
 
 1448. Has not that been very much given up of late ? — Yes, it has been \ery 
 much discouraged from home, and transportation substituted for it. 
 
 1449. Chairman.'] How is the Legislative Council composed ? — It is composed 
 of the same members as the Executive Government, wibli the addition of a 
 fourth member, who by law is to sit and vote only when the Council is engaged 
 in legislative proceedings. 
 
 1 450. \Miat is the nature of the authority of the Legislative Council ? — With 
 certain limits, their authority extends to the enactment of any law to operate 
 upon any inhabitant of India,. British-born, or native, or foreigner : the restric- 
 tions chiefly apply to the Queen's prerogative. Another I'estriction is that 
 they are not authorised to impose the penalty of capital punishment ujjon a 
 British-born subject without the sanction of the authorities in I'^ngland. Ex- 
 cepting those limits, 1 think their authority is complete ; they may pass any law 
 which will be operative upon any inhabitant of the British territory in India. 
 
 1 45 1 . A civil or criminal law / — Yes. They have no power to alter the 
 authority under which they exercise this power, nor an)' Act of Parliament 
 which has been passed subsequent to the authority given to them. They 
 can alter any Act of I'ariiament which was passed before 1833, but not any 
 Act passed since. 
 
 14.-,-. Will you state to the Committee what steps were taken to carry into 
 effect the provisions of the la.st Act as to the Law Commission: — The Act 
 provided that the members of the; Commission should be recommended by the 
 Court of Directors for appointment by the Government of India and accord- 
 ingly the Court of Directors acting upon that provision, a Con^.mission was 
 ajipointed by the Government, in the year 1835, the year after the Act took 
 
 0.10. M 4 effect. 
 
 David Hili, 1 
 
 10 March i£ 
 
 Vide Append!
 
 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 lid Hill, Esq. effect. The Commission was engaged in its duties for a good many years, but 
 
 its numbers have not been filled up and now it has become extinct. They 
 
 March 1853. ^^^^,^ exec\ited only a small portion of the duty prescribed to them by the Act, 
 and the vacancies have been allowed to remain without being tilled up and 
 at present there is practically no Law Commission. 
 
 i4-,3. Will you state what portion of the duties which devolved npon tlu^ 
 Law Commission have been executed r— Very soon after they were formed, the 
 President of the Law Commission submitted to the Government that he conceived 
 the dutv which it wasfittest forthem to engage in was thejjreparation of acriminal 
 code. They were authorised by the Government accordingly to proceed with 
 that duty and, after the lapse of two or three years I think, they submitted, not 
 a criminal code, a code for the administration of the criminal law, but a penal 
 code, defining crimes and the punishments to be annexed to them. That 
 code was communicated by the Government to Lord Auckland, Governor- 
 general, who was at that time in the North-Western Provinces, at a distance 
 from the Presidency. His view of the matter was that it was better that it 
 should lie o\er for the consideration of persons conversant with such 
 subjects, that it should be transmitted to England, and coramuiiieated to indi- 
 viduals who were best competent to form a judgment regarding its provisions. 
 It did accordingly lie over for a longtime. After the lapse of several years, the 
 then Commission" revised the criticisms n])on the code which had been received 
 from the individuals to whom it had been referred by the Government. The 
 Law Commission then consisted only of Mr. Cameron and Mr. Eliott, the 
 other vacancies not having been filled up. They submitted their observations 
 upon the code in detail, giving not a general view of its merits, but a detailed 
 examination of its provisions. The Government sent this home to the Court 
 of Directors, asking whether they might now enact the code. 
 
 1454. Who was then Governor-general? — Lord Hardinge. The Court of 
 Directors replied that they might do so, adopting such alterations and modifi- 
 cations of the code as they themselves, the Government of India, shoidd deem 
 necessary : that authority lay dormant : the Government did not act upon it. 
 Probably other urgent matters interfered, as is too apt to happen from the Legis- 
 lative Council and the Executive Government being identical : when there is a 
 pressure of executive business the legislative work of course is allowed to lie 
 over. It was not acted on till about a year and a half or two years ago, 
 when it was proposed by the Government that the jurisdiction of the criminal 
 courts throughout India, the zillah courts and the native tribunals, should 
 extend to British-born subjects, which it does not at ))resent. They have no 
 jurisdiction over British-born subjects but only over natives : British-born 
 subjects are ami-nable only in criminal matters with certain exceptions to the 
 jurisdiction of the Su}n"eme Court at the Presidency. It was proposed to extend 
 the criminal jurisdiction of the local courts to British-liorn subjects, which Lord 
 Dalhousie, the present Governor-general, highly approved of, till he came to Cal- 
 cutta, and in(iuired what law was to be administered. When he learnt that the law 
 was called the Mahomedan law and that it was onl}' to bc^ found in the Company's 
 regulations and in the constructions of the criminal courts and the practice 
 which had grown up in the course of years, he withdrew his sanction and 
 stated that he coidd not concin- in rendering his countrymen liable to suffer 
 under the pro\isions of an unknown and barbarous Mahomedan law : and 
 then he recurred to the sanction which had been given from home for the 
 enactment of the penal code. He said the difficulty would be removed if that 
 were done ; and he wrote home to ask what the view of the Court of Direc- 
 tors was. Drafts of Bills for extending the jurisdiction of the Company's 
 courts to British-born subjects had been sent home and an answer had gone 
 out offering some suggestions regarding them ; and with reference to that 
 answer Lord Dalhousie asked whether it would not be desirable now to enact 
 that ])enal code as a part of this new system of extending the criminal juris- 
 diction of the Company's courts to Ih'itish-born subjects. The Court ot 
 Directors readily ga\e their a))proval to this suggestion and then the Govern- 
 ment of India set to work to revise the jjcnal code and to adopt such modifica- 
 tions as under the former instructions and the authority which had been given 
 to pass it, they might deem nccessarv ; the result was that the i)enal code was 
 drawn afroh ; it was put in a totally different form. The fourth member 
 of the Council, Mr. Bethune disapproved of many of the pccuharitics of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 07 
 
 tlu' penul code: he disapproved of tlic introduction of u totull)- new set Dav.d Hill, JUq 
 
 of terms : he disapproved of what were called illustrations, suppositious - 
 
 cases to illustrate how the law was intended to operate: he conceived tliat 10 March 1853. 
 
 it was not for the Legislaturi! to construe the law. if the law did appl\ 
 
 to a case the juda;e must apply it, but he couhl not he told beforehand 
 
 whether it applied or not : two definitions mi^jlit clash with each other. 
 
 The result was, that it was put into a totally different form, so that the 
 
 two codes did not correspond : they did not admit of being (compared witli 
 
 eacli other, hut each had to i)e estimated according to its own separate 
 
 merits. Lord Dalhousie expressed great approljatiou of the code as it was 
 
 drawn h}' Mr. Bethune, but made no comjjarative observations as to whether 
 
 one code was better than the other. He said, "This is a new draft, audit 
 
 must go home now for the sanction of the authorities in England, that we may 
 
 know which code is to i)e adopted." About a year ago instructions went out 
 
 authorising the Government to enact the (;odc, as th"y themselves might 
 
 approve of it, and I suppose they are engaged in that work now. 
 
 1455. The Law Commission is now virtually extinct? — Practically it is 
 extinct. 
 
 1456. Do you wish to make any suggestion to the Committee as to any 
 change which it would be desirable to make in the Legislative Council? — It is 
 jierhaps rash and presumptuous in me to make anv such suggestion ; 
 but 1 think the present Legislative Council is very ill constituted for its work. 
 In my judgment, it ought to include the judges of the Supreme Court, the 
 judges of the Sudder Court, the Advocate-general, and other individuals who are 
 particularly qualified for the duty. The consideration of questions of that kind 
 is a totally different thing from the management of the affairs of an executive 
 government. My idea is that they ought to sit as a sort of i)arliament, and all 
 their deliberations should be oral ; they should not write minutes and hold 
 themselves personally responsible for phraseology. They ought to decide onl} 
 whether such and such a law is desirable, whetlier the prineijile of the law is 
 approved of, and then finally, in committee, whether the detailed provisions of 
 the law correspond with their intentions. 
 
 14.57. All tlie work of drawing up the minute should be done by others? — 
 Yes : the Legislature ought to sit exclusively as a Council : they ought to sit in 
 judgment upon the work they have desired to be done. They should give their 
 instructions, and the law should be framed on such instructions. At a future 
 meeting- the Council should deliberate whether the principles of the Bill cor- 
 respond with their intentions, and then the details should be gone through ; 
 but it should not be the duty of a Governor-general, administering the affairs 
 of a great empire, to attend to the phraseology of the clauses of an act of 
 Council, or to revise it with his own pen. My idea is that the work of legisla- 
 tion must be done finally in India : there is and can be no authority in this 
 countn,' to correct errors which occur there. All that can he done here is to 
 approve or disapprove of the law as it has passed but not to revise legislative 
 proceedings, as the acts of an administrative Government are revised. I think 
 that can only be done on the sjjot by the Legislative Council and the Council 
 ought to be made quite efficient for the purpose, which might be done by the 
 fourth member of Council being assisted by a legislative secretary, and such a 
 competent staff as would enable him to do the work prescribed to the Law 
 Commission. 
 
 1458. Mr. Hinnc] In the Legislative Council, as you would constitute it, 
 would you include any natives as members ? — 1 do net think the introduction 
 of natives as mem.bers of the Council would b{> of use, but of course the\ 
 would be very much resorted to by the members of the Council for information 
 regarding their views, and wishes and feelings. They would onl}- hamper the 
 Council if they wei'e associated with them. 
 
 i4,5(). Is it your opinion that there are no natives in Bengal, either Mussul- 
 mans or Hindoos, whose qualifications would fit them, as members of the 
 Council, to take part in discussions, such as you have j)roperly stated ought to 
 attend the formation of a law ? — That is my opinion. 
 
 1460. Sir J'. II. JMaddock.] In a case where it is proposed to enact new laws 
 aft'ecting almost exclusively natives of India, the Hindoos for instance, do you 
 think they ought not to be consulted ?— I think they ought to be very much 
 consulted : they would be, and they are. 
 
 0.10. " N 14U1. How
 
 98 :\1INUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 David Hill, Esq. 1461. How \vould vou consult them if j-ou did not admit them into the 
 ■ Legislature in any way ? — I do not think their ideas or their manners are in 
 
 10 March 1853. common %vith ours so as to admit of the two being amalgamated in one Board. 
 In my opinion it would defeat the object in view if they were admitted as 
 members. The whole object would be much better attained by leaving the 
 members of the Legislative Council to Iiold out of doors communications in 
 the form thev thought best with the natives wlio were able to supply what was 
 wanted. 
 
 1462. You are no doubt aware that the natives of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa 
 have complained to Parliament of an enactment, numbered Act 21 of 1850, 
 by which thev assert that their religion and rights have been subverted ; and they 
 state in their petition that they remonstrated against the passing of that Act 
 while it was under consideration ; that their remonstrances were utterly neg- 
 lected, and that the Act has been passed affecting their interests without their 
 wishes and feelings having be.n attended to : how should such a course of legis- 
 lation be prevented? — My belief is, that generally represcnitations of that kind 
 are got up at the instigation of some person who wants to raise difficulties : 
 the real feelings of the natives are seldom truly represented in such remon 
 strances : they are much better asceitained by personal communication with 
 individuals. 
 
 14O3. Mr. V. Smith.'] You spoke of the appointment of the judges, but in 
 giving a history of those appointments, you did not state at what age they 
 could be appointed r — There is a limit by law to the age at which admissions 
 can take place into the Com])any's service and also to the amount of salary which 
 a covenanted servant is competent to draw before certain periods : those limits 
 would operate indirectly in fixing a certaiia age, but otherwise there is no fixed 
 rule. 
 
 14(34. Do }ou mean that he might be appointed a judge immediately upon 
 his arrival ? — He could not be so ; he could not draw the salary, and the ap- 
 pointnaent would be illegal : he cannot enter the service till a certain age and 
 he cannot receive a certain salary till he has been a certain number of years 
 in the service: therefore incidentally the age is in some degree fixed. 
 
 1465. Those two circumstances combined would fix the age at which he could 
 be ajjpointed ? — Y^es : otherwise there is no positive provision made as to the 
 age at which officers can hold particular appointments. 
 
 Frederic Millett, Esq., was called in ; and Examined. 
 
 F. Millett,'Eii\. 1466. Chairman'] YOU have heard the evidence of the previous witness as 
 
 ' - to the general system of judicature and its ajjplication ; do you concur in the 
 general exactness of that statement ? — Yes. 
 
 14()7. What is your opinion as to the efficiency of the existing judicial 
 system in India. Will you have the goodness first to refer to the system 
 adopted in the provinces? — Our civil regulations were framed originally 
 by Sir Elijah Impey, when he was made one of the judges of the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut. They were based upon the practice of the English courts, 
 which I think, lor small cases especially, is too comjilicated for the natives ; a 
 more simple mode of procedure is betier adajited to their habits. I may mention, 
 however, that if the regulations respecting the mode of procedure had been fully 
 followed out, I think the inconvenience would have been much less than it is 
 at present. I will cxem])lif)' what I mean by speaking of the ])leadings in a 
 case ; instead of being sim))l}' such, they arc full of irrelevant matter, and are a 
 mixture of pleadings and arguments. 
 
 14G8. Will you exi)lain to the Committee what the mode adopted in drawing ' 
 up those pleadings is r — They are all written. 
 
 1469. Are they taken down viva 'voce before the judge? — No; they are re- 
 corded in a written form, a jHaint, an answer, a re])ly, and a rejoinder. 
 
 1470. Where are they taken ? -They arc taken in the court or in the office. 
 
 1471. Do you mean in the hearing of the judge ? — No. 
 
 1472. Do you think that oljjeetionable ? — 1 think it is so specially in small 
 cases. I think the natives would very much prefer being brought in person 
 before the judge, and lieing confronted with each other ; in that case very 
 many of the cases which now go to great length would be stopped //( limine. 
 Our non-regulation provinces arc better administered than the regulation pro- 
 vinces
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEHIIIIUUIES. 
 
 99 
 
 vinces in that respect. It is stated that, in one of the districts of the Punjab, F.MilUu, E»q. 
 34 per eent. of tlie eases are setth-d at onee in tliat wnv. 
 
 1473. You regard the i)le;idings as a source of delay in the administration of 10 March 1853. 
 justice r — Yes, and not only of delay but cf expense too. 
 
 1474. The remedy }ou would suggest would he that the parties sliould be 
 heard bclbre ilie judge himself?^ — Yes. 
 
 147.-,. That would do away with those pleadings which you speak of? — It 
 would ; at all events in most eases. Another rule is, that as soon as those 
 pleadings are tiled, the judge shall call up the ease for hearing' and draw the 
 issues, and evidence only on those issues shall be called for. Instead of that, 
 it is very nuieh the practice of the courts, when those pleadings are completed, 
 without hearing the ease, to let the parties send for their own witnesses. Those 
 witnesses are brought in and are examined ; then when the judge takes up the 
 case he finds a great deal that is irrelevant, and he has to do, perhaps, half the 
 work over again. 
 
 1476. Is that the general course of proceeding in the provinces ? — It used to 
 be formerl}-, and I think it must be tlu; same now to a certain extent ; for about 
 five or six years ago the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut at Agra recommended the 
 Government to repeal the rule, because it was never observed. 
 
 1477. Is it optional with the judge to depart from the present complicated 
 system .- — No. 
 
 1478. Mr. Hnme.^ In what language are the depositions and statements 
 given ?— In the vernacular language of the country. 
 
 1479. ^y ^'^liom are those statements taken down from the mouths of the 
 witnesses : — By ihe officers of the court. 
 
 1480. AVhat are they denominated ? — They have different names; there are 
 various ministerial officers. 
 
 148 1 . What is their station and the average rate of pay which they receive ? 
 — The highest officer gets 100 rupees a month, and many of them only 12 
 rupees, and even seven rupees, a month. 
 
 M^-- Has the person who gives the evidence an opportunity of examining 
 what is given in to the court ? — Very often the witnesses are discharged before 
 the judge has had time to read over their evidence before them ; but then it is 
 always signed by the pleaders of both parties. 
 
 1483. Are the judges always capable of reading the vernacular language in 
 which the reports are made ? — Man)- of them are so now ; formerly they used 
 not to be. 
 
 1484. If they are not able to do so, are not the}- open to an unfair ex])lana- 
 tion by the party who may bring the matter before them ? — Y'es, if he be a very 
 designing officer, certainly they are. 
 
 148.5. Chairmmi.^ Will you jiroceed with the statement of your views as to 
 the defects of the existing system in the provinces I — 1 think it is the prepara- 
 tion of the cases in the first instance in which the disorder lies : if the i)lead- 
 ings were kept short, and to the purpose, there would be much less trouble. 
 But 1 think in most cases the judge might, in the presence of both i)arties, 
 take down their pleas, settle the issues at once, and call for whatever witnesses 
 mieht be necessary. 
 
 ]4 8(). Have yovi any observation to make as to the system of criminal judi- 
 cature in the provinces ?— I think the jirincipal evil lies in the nmltii)lieation 
 of appeals since the year 1841 ; formerly the superior courts had only a jjower 
 of revision, in case they considered anything to be wrong, but now- every one 
 has an appeal of right. There, also, the jiroceedings are too long : I think it 
 the magistrate or the otficer presiding wrote the pleadings and evidence with 
 his own hands, much time might be saved. 
 
 1487. Have you any observation to make as to the system existing in the 
 Presidency towns ? — I have little information on that subject : the Small 
 Cause Court, I understand, answers particularly well ; the Queen's Court is one 
 which is, of course, highly esteemed for its judicial decisions ; the inconvenience 
 is the exjiense of it. 
 
 1488. The Small Cause Court has been estabhshed since you left India? — 
 Yes ; I would beg to observe that I think one great mode of improving the 
 administration of justice, as to the i)rovinces, would be to incorporate the 
 Queen's judges with the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. 
 
 1480. You were Secretary to the Law Commission at one time? — -Yes. 
 0.10. N 2 1490. -And
 
 100 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F.jViilcii,Esq. MQiJ- -'^11 fl subsequently a member of the Law Commission? — Yes. 
 
 • 149^« You have heard what has been stated upon that subject by the 
 
 10 March i8-,3. previous witness : have you anv further observations to make as to the proceed- 
 ings of the Law Commission ? — There were a good man}' drafts of laws sent 
 up ; there was a draft of a law for the estabhshment of a subordinate civil court 
 in Calcutta, which was meant to be a model court for the rest of the country, 
 and also a subordinate criminal court ; l)ut neither of them came to anytliing. 
 
 1492. Would you i-e(>ommend the renewal of that Law Commission? — Not 
 on its former foundation ; I would incorporate it with the Legislative Council. 
 
 H<)3. Would vou add to the Legislative Council? — Yes; 1 would add the 
 chief judge of the Supreme Court, a judge of the Sudder, and a member of the 
 Board of Revenue, the Advocate-general, and the Secretary to the Coverument 
 of India and the Secrclarv of Bengal ; and, further, if there were no members 
 of the Executive Council or Law Connnission from Madras or Bombay, I 
 would recommend a member from each of those Presidencies. 
 
 i4()4. Mr. JIk/iii'.] ^Vould you recommend that any native whatever should 
 form part of that Board ? — I am not prepared to do so. 
 
 1495. C/ifui-nimi.l You would leave the powers of the Legislative Council as 
 they are r — I do not think they require to be extended. 
 
 i4()(i. Would you regulate the proceedings of the Legislative Council, or 
 \\ould you leave that to their own discretion afterwards ? — I would leave them 
 a good deal to their own regulations, but 1 think their discussion should be 
 oral, to avoid the necessity of minuting. 
 
 1407. ]Mr. Hmue.] You would, in fact, nbolish all ])leadings, and leave the 
 judge to take his own notes ? — Yes, in small cases jjarticularly ; there are 
 some cases which are more complicated, where pleadings might be necessary. 
 
 140S. ^A'ill vou state whether any and what taxes are levied on the pro- 
 ceedings in courts of justice ? — In the tirst place, the plaint must be on a stamp ; 
 up to IC rupees, the stamp is one lupee; up to 32 rupees it is two rupees, and 
 >o on up to ,')0,000, when it is 1,000 rupees ; and above that it is 2,000 rupees. 
 
 14()(). Is that the case in all suits, civil and criminal? — No; merely in civil 
 suits. 
 
 i.'joo. That is the first charge? — It is. 
 
 1.^01. As regai-ds the answers, what stamp is required? — They must be upon 
 small stamps, according to the court in which they are brought ; before the 
 judge's court the stamp is higher than in the sudder amin's. 
 
 1 -ioj. Are all the ))roceediiigs which are put in as pleadings connected with 
 the case re(]uired to be stamped? — They are, as also exhibits and lists of 
 witnesses, excepting in the moonsiffs' courts. 
 
 \,')Oj. Is it }'our opinion, looking to the general poverty of the natives of 
 India, that the taxes on justice should be continued as they now are, as a 
 means of revenue to the State r — I should not mind their being collected as a 
 revenue to the State, so that the losing party ))aid them all ; I mean that 
 nobody should pa)- them in the first instance, but that the losing party should 
 ])ay them instead of their being antici])ated ; but then there would be a diffi- 
 culty in collecting them. 
 
 1 .504. Is it the practice that the expenses are generally awarded against the 
 losini; party r — Yes, generally speaking ; sometimes they arc divided between 
 the j)arties, as justice may require. 
 
 1.505. Does that include the stamps upon originating the suit .- — Yes, every 
 stamp which is taken in the case. 
 
 i.^oti. Looking at its effects as a check on api)lications for justice, do you 
 consider the principle of a tax on legal procecuiings to be a sound one and one 
 uliich it is desirable to continue ? — 1 do not think it is. 
 
 i.V>7. That would be one of the reforms and im])rovements which you would 
 propose ? — Yes. 
 
 i.)0S. Would not the abolition of written ])leadings tend greatly to shorten 
 the duration and lessen the c.\j)ense of litigation, and would not it forward the 
 decisions of the courts to a very great extent .' — I tiunk it would. 
 
 I .")O0. Is not it the rule now. that mngistrates sitting as jiulgcs in those courts, 
 whctlier as assistants or as chiefs, shall themselves understand the vernacular 
 language of tlu; districts in which they are ?— Certainly. 
 
 1.'-, 10. Wonld not it tend thcrelbre greatly to facilitate the administration of 
 justice if in all cases the parties were brouglit face to face and there were rivti 
 
 voce
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. loi 
 
 voce examinations, leaving the notes to be taken 1)\ the iiulijc on narticular /• Mii.n v 
 junnts i* — 1 cs, I thnik so. 
 
 ijii. AVoukl those notes be sufficient in case of an ajjpeal to a higher tribu- lo March iS^rj. 
 nal ? — I think so. 
 
 1.51 J. "Woukl yon allow all eases, however small, to l)e a])])('ale(l, or would vou 
 limit the right of a])i)cal to eases involving a considerable amount ? — I would 
 take away the appeal in cases of simple debt uj) to a certain amount. 
 
 151;',. What amount would you fix, looking at the state of India? — Up to 
 lU rupees, perhaps. 
 
 1.514. Looking loan appeal as founded upon the notes sent up, would not 
 that tend greatly lo increase the expense of every suit .' — 1 think not. 
 
 i.li.j. You would not put an}- stamp on the notes scut up to the appellate 
 court ?— No. 
 
 151(1. With respect to the officers who take down the pleadings at the pre- 
 sent moment, what is your opinion as to their honesty ; how far does tlie open- 
 ness to bribery, which has been frequently alleged, exist among them r — I be- 
 lieve most of them take sjjeed money, or some kind of penpnsite. 
 
 1517. \\ hat do you mean by speed money; does not the judge call on the 
 cases according to their order upon his roll ? — He does. 
 
 1,518. le there not an ofiicer of the court who, by the desire of the judge, 
 calls on the case? — Yes ; that is on the hearing and trial of the case. 
 
 1519. What stage of tlie proceedings do you allude to as that in which 
 speed money is taken ? — I believe it is ai)plied for very generally. 
 
 15-20. In what stage of the proceedings r — Almost at every stage ; in the tiling 
 of the pleadings, in summoning the witnesses, and so on. 
 
 1521. In what way would you put an end to the practice r — I doubt whether 
 it could be put an end to entirely ; the sums so taken are very small, and no 
 complaints are made. My belief is founded on common report more than any- 
 thing else. 
 
 1522. Would you suggest that a hst should be made, and the cases called on 
 according- to their priority, no interference of other parties between the judge 
 and the parties concerned being allowed ? — The judge keeps a register of the 
 cases, and he calls them up according as they are ready. 
 
 i!)-2-^. Y'ou would abolish the taxes on the pleadings by abolishing the plead- 
 ings themselves ; what other expenses are there which you would recommend 
 to be reduced r — Those on the filing of exhibits, and summoning witnesses. 
 
 1524. Sir G. Gret/-'] We have heard of successive courts, each with distinct 
 limits of jurisdiction, the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut being the ultimate court 
 of appeal ; is there an appeal from each inferior court to the court immediately 
 ab(jve it, or is the appeal direct from any of those inferior courts to the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adavvlut r — From the moonsiff's court there is an appeal to the judge, 
 and also from the sudder amin's court, and from the principal sudder amin's 
 court there is an appeal to the judge, up to 5,000 ru])ees ; above that an appeal 
 lies to the Sudder Court, and Irom all the judges' decisions in original suits an 
 appeal lies to the Sudder Court. Then as regards all points of law, by whatever 
 tribunal tlie decision may be made, there is an appeal to the Sudder Court. 
 
 1525. What time must necessarily elapse between the institution of a suit in 
 the lowest of those courts and the ultimate decision by the Sudder Adawlut, 
 provided the decision is appealed against ; does anj' considerable time elapse 
 before the appeal is heard and decided ? — They have facilitated the mode of 
 disposing of ai)peals latel}' ; if an appeal is brought, and there appears to bi' no 
 reason for dissenting from the judgment, without sunnnoning the respondent at 
 all the ap])eal is decided against the appellant. 
 
 1526. What is the time which ordinarily elapses between the institution of a 
 suit and the ultimate decision of it by the Court of Appeal r-- In the Bengal 
 provinces the average duration of a suit before the moonsiff is four months and 
 nineteen days ; in the North Western Provinces it is al)out two months and 
 tweniy-four days. 
 
 1527. What is the amount of the jurisdiction in the moonsiff's court .' — I p 
 to 300 rupees. Then, in the sudder amin's court, the time is about one year 
 .and four months in Bengal and in the >iorth Western ProvintH'S three months. 
 In the principal sudder amins court it is about seven months and two days 
 in Bengal, and in the North W^estern Provinces three months and a half. In 
 the judge's court it is one year seven months and twenty days in Bengal, 
 
 0.10. N ^ and
 
 102 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. Millett, Esq. 
 10 March 1853. 
 
 and seven months and a half in the Nortli Western Provinces. In the Sudder 
 Court it is eleven months and a half in Bengal, and five months and a half in 
 the North \\ estern Provinces. 
 
 i/,28. I understood you to say that you would recommend the incorporation 
 of the Sudder Adawlut with the Supreme Court ; do you mean that you would 
 supersede the Sudder Adawlut and transfer its appellate jurisdiction to the 
 Supreme Court .'—1 would take advantage of the legal knowledge of the 
 Queen's judges, and appoint tliem to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut ; one of the 
 Queen's judges should be the Chief Justice of the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. 
 
 152m. Mr. T'. S/iiith.] Is there an}^ limit of time fixed by law beyond which 
 an appeal cannot he made ? — Yes ; it is one month from the lowest courts, and 
 three months, I think, to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. 
 
 1,530. Mr. Hnme.] What is the shortest period within whicli any suits are 
 determined r — That I cannot say ; I have stated the average only. 
 
 1531. Chairman^] Do you think that shows the fair average of the time ? — 
 I can onl\' take it from the way in which the annual statements are made out ; 
 I have no other means of judging. The average for Bengal is for five years ; 
 that of the North Western Pi'ovinces is only for the year 1850. 
 
 1532. Sir G. Grey.^ Complaints have been made of great delay in the 
 courts in India ; do you think there is any unnecessary delay in any of those 
 courts, and how would you propose to obviate that inconvenience ? — It was to 
 that I referred when I spoke of confronting both parties before the judge. 
 
 1533. Does the present mode of taking evidence necessarily cause delay, 
 which you think might be obviated ? — Yes, I think so. The evidence is often 
 taken at too great length. 
 
 1534. Sir J. H. Miiddock.~] Would you in the first instance require a written 
 petition, or compel the plaintiff to come and make the complaint viva voce ? — 
 I should mvself i)refer that it should be rmi voce ; but 1 do not think it A^ery 
 much signifies, so that the defendant has due notice of the subject of the plaint. 
 
 1535. When you had taken either his written petition, or his viva voce com- 
 plaint, would you send for the witnesses to substantiate that before you called 
 up the defendant? — No ; it is by calling up the defendant, and confronting the 
 two parties, that the case might be got over at once ; 1 would not send for the 
 witnesses in the first instance. 
 
 1 536. Mr. Hume.'] Would not you leave it to the ])arties themselves to come ac- 
 c(mipanied by witnesses or not, as the}' might think fit ?-- I would not forbid their 
 
 doing It; 
 
 it might sometimes lead to the s])eedy termination of the suit. 
 
 against 
 
 1537. Mr. Elliot.] In what way would you amalgamate the Supreme Court 
 and the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut r — By appointing the Queen's Judges to 
 the Sudder Adavslut. 
 
 1538. To adnunister what law I — The same law which the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut now administers. I think there would be no difficulty now, from the 
 mode in which the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut jiulges conduct the business. 
 
 15.30- What law would they administer, supposing the distinction ceased, 
 and there was but one; Supreme Court? — I do not mean that there should be 
 one Supreme Court; I would still ki'ep up the Snijieme t'ourt as a Supreme 
 Court for the jurisdiction of Calcutta. 
 
 1540. .As well as the Sudder Dewanny? — Yes, I think it would be 
 the feelings of the Europeans to do away with the Supreme Court. 
 
 1541 . \A'ould you limit the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court further than it 
 is limited at present ? — No. 
 
 1542. Mow far does the Supreme Court now extend its jurisdiction in civil 
 cases? — Its jurisdiction extends merely within the bounds of Calcsitta. 
 
 1543. ■'^"y pfi'son who is constructively an inhal)itant of Calcutta, in con- 
 sequence of holding any ])roperty there, becomes liable to the jurisdiction 
 of the Supreme Court for all his jjioperty which may be 500 miles distant, does 
 he not ? — All liis property becomes liable; for the execution of the decrees of the 
 Supreme ( "ourt. 
 
 1544. Mr. llmne.'] Supposing a man residing in Patna or Cawnpore is a 
 partner in a house in C!alcutta, or has any prop(>rtv there, does he l)ecome 
 anienal)le to the Supreme tJourt in Calcutta, whensver he may be ? — I reallv 
 cannot say how that may be, but 1 know the constructions as to the jurisdiction 
 of the Supreme Court have been very wide. 
 
 1545. Is it your opinion that the Supreme Court should have jurisdiction by 
 appeal in all the provinces? — I do not say that. 
 
 1546. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 103 
 
 1 546. You are for limiting the jurisdiction strictly to Calcutta, :is it now p, Millett, Esq. 
 is?— Yes ; I would not take away from its jurisdiction, nor add to it. ■ 
 
 1547. The courts consist of European and native ofttcers ; what is vour luMiirdi 1853. 
 opinion as to the salaries and allowances to the Eurojieau civil servants ; are 
 
 they ndecjuate, or would you suggest any alteration .' — I think, generally speak- 
 ing, they are adequate. 
 
 1548. Lo()kini>- to the natives employed about the courts, what is your 
 opinion as to their salaries ; are they now adccjuate, in your opinion, or would 
 you make any change ? — I think the salaries of the moonsiffs of the lower 
 grade are much too small. 
 
 i.54q. How many grades are there? — There are two grades of moonsiffs ; 
 one grade has 100 ru])ees per month, and they rise by merit up to 150. 
 
 15.50. Will you define what is the duty of the moonsiff who receives 100 
 rupees a month ? — His dut}' is to try all cases up to 300 rupees. 
 
 1,551. lie is in fact a judge ? — Yes ; a judge of original jurisdiction. 
 
 I55'i. Does he as a judge of original jurisdiction receive pleadings in the 
 wa)" which you have stated? — He does. 
 
 i.).')3- By whom are those pleadings prepared; supposing the amount of the 
 debt to be only six or eight rupees, or whatever the amount nuiy be, pleadings 
 must be j)repared ? — Yes. 
 
 1554. Before w-Iiom and by whom are those pleadings prepared? — They are 
 prepared by the agents of the parties themselves, or their pleaders. 
 
 1555. Are those agents servants of the court, employed by the Government, 
 and responsible men, or who are they? — 'Ihe pleaders are responsible men ; 
 the agents are not. 
 
 1556. Are the pleaders salaried officers ? — No, they are not salaried officers ; 
 they are paid by fees, according to the amount of the case. 
 
 1557- You have stated that there are taxes paid on the plaints; there are 
 fees paid also in court, and there are also fees paid to the parties who prepare 
 the pleadings ; what is the general amount of the last-mentioned fees '. — Some 
 of the fees to the agents employed about the courts are very small. If the 
 parties appoint a vakeel, it is he who prepares the pleadings ; I do not know 
 what the fees of the vakeels are now. 
 
 1558. 'Sou say )'ou think the salaries of the moonsiffs are too low ? — Yes. 
 
 i5.')<)- What alteration would you recommend? — I should certainly make the 
 lowest salarv of a moonsiff 1 50 rupees a month, and the salary of the second grade 
 200 rupees a month ; if the finances would allow, I would make the first 200. 
 
 1560. Would you apply that scale to all parts of India ? — I am now speaking 
 of the Bengal I'residency. 
 
 1561. Do you know whether the same practice prevails in the North-W^estern 
 Provinces ? — Yes. 
 
 1562. Mr. Hardhifjc] What examination do the moonsiffs undergo before 
 they are appointed ? — They undergo an examination before committees sitting 
 at the chief stations in the country, and consisting of the principal European 
 and native officers at those stations. The examination is in the civil regula- 
 tions and the rules of civil procedure. 
 
 1563. All the lower native judicial officers must be .~-. Iccted from among- the 
 moonsiffs? — It is not absolutelv necessary, because the Government hold in 
 their hands the option of appointing others ; but, generally speaking, they rise 
 from moonsiflFs to be surider amin, and from that to be principal amin. 
 
 1564. When were native deputy magistrates first appointed ? — In 184o. 
 
 1565. Have the appeals from the decisions of officers of that grade increased 
 or diminished since the appointment of natives? — The deputy magistrates 
 appointed in 1843 were nneovenanted servants. 
 
 1566. Since their appointment have the appeals increased or diminished in 
 number ? — I cannot say that exactly ; the evil of appeals is very great in the 
 criminal department. 
 
 15(17. Does the appeal from their decisions go to the magistrate direct, or to 
 the principal sudder ameen r— It goes to the sessions judge. 
 
 i5()8, W'hat is the language now used in the Sudder Court ?— There arc now 
 sworn translators attached to the Court, who translate into English the papers 
 of all suits brought before the Court, When the pleaders entertained by both 
 parties understand English, the arguments are conducted in English ; if not, 
 they are conducted in the native language. Barristers of the Supreme Court 
 
 0.10. N 4 are
 
 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 t. Miikit, Esq. are now employed in ihe Sudder ; many of the native pleaders also use the 
 ■ English language. 
 
 10 March 1853. 1569. In a purely native suit, what language is used in the Sudder Court? — 
 
 It does not matter whether it is a i)urely native case or not, so that the i)leaders 
 
 employed understand English. 
 
 1570. Is it Hindostanee or Persian that is used r — Iliiidostanee. 
 
 1571. Was not it Persian before Lord Auckland's time ?■ — ^Yes, it used to be 
 Persian formerly. 
 
 157J. Does the punchavet system answer well, in your opinion, in the non- 
 regulation provinces .' — I am not experienced in the state of things in the non- 
 regulation provinces, but I believe it does, from what 1 luive read. 
 
 1,073. ^11 the regulation provinces the judge can always impanel a jury of 
 these, cannot he : — He can, hut it is almost a dead letter : there are very few 
 cases tried by a jury. 
 
 1574. Are the vakeels, in your opinion, sufficiently well educated? — In all 
 the zillah courts formerly there were not above one or two out of about 12 
 who used to attend the court who rendered the slightest aid to the judge in 
 deciding cases ; they were not well-educated, generally speaking. In the Sudder 
 Court, again, there ai'e very well-educated men. 
 
 1575. Viscount Jocelyn.'] To what extent in the courts above the moonsiff's 
 court are natives employed ? — There are sudder ameens and principal sudder 
 ameens above the moonsiffs. 
 
 1576. Has the appointment of natives in those courts been much extended 
 of late years ?— They have been very nmch more employed of late years ; since 
 the year 1831. 
 
 1577. "What is your opinion, as far as j^our experience goes, of the mode in 
 which they perform their judicial duties ? — I think that they perform them 
 very well, and certainly much better than many Europeans used to do formed}-. 
 I am now speaking- of former days. 
 
 1.178. Can you state whether, since the appointment of natives to a greater 
 extent in those courts, the appeals have been more frequent to the courts 
 above ? — I cannot say ; 1 have not the means of comparing the results of so 
 many years. 
 
 i;",7(j. Mr. Batike.s.] Has a moonsiff any criminal jurisdiction ? — No; he mav 
 be appciinted a deputy magisti-atc, but they are not often so employed. I think 
 it would be a great advantage if they were, and for that reason, among others,. 
 1 wish to increase their salaries. 
 
 1,-380. What criminal jurisdiction has the deputy magistrate ? — He bc,2;ins 
 with small cases, and afterwards has special powers, to the extent of punishing 
 Avith six months' imprisonment and imposing a fine of 200 rupees. Finally, In- 
 may lune the fuU j)owers of a magistrate, and award two or three years' 
 imprisonment for particular offences. 
 
 1.", 81. WliJit is the lowest court which is invested with the power of capital 
 punishment or transi)ortatiou for life ? — No court lower than the Nizamut 
 Adawlut ; that is the highest Company's court. 
 
 1 ,582. Mr. 3J(i)i(jle)i.\ Mr. 1 lill stated that the primary jurisdiction of Furopean 
 judges amounted ordy to one per cent, upon the whole ; is not it the case that 
 the Government has been anxious to keep l^uropeau t)fiicers merely for appel- 
 late juri>diction, and for sujx-rintending the working of the system, and to 
 throw th'.'. judicial business into the hands of native judges?- — ^Yes. 
 
 1,58,3. And that is the cause of the very small number of suits decided, pri- 
 marily, by English judges ? — Exactly so. 
 
 1.584. They have been, in fact, employed to watch the working of the sys- 
 tem, and as an aj)pellate jurisdi(!tion to sec that the native judges performed 
 their duties? — Yes. 
 
 1.585. That has been thf ol)icct of the Covernment, of late years, has not 
 it:— Yes. 
 
 1580, 'Mr. Elliot.] In cases depentling upon Mahomedan and Hindoo law, 
 and affecting the (■u>t()ms and i)rejudices of the natives, do you think the 
 .Judicial Committee of tlie Privy Council, which now tries appeals to the (iuecn 
 in Council, is a perfectly competent and satisfactory tribunal.' — I do not 
 know what ])roportion of (-ases, before the Privy Council, turn on points of 
 Hindoo and Alahomedan law, and the customs of the natives. 
 
 1587. Do.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON L\DTAN TERRITORIES. 10.5 
 
 i.'iS;. Do you think that the constitution of tlie Judicial Committee would F. MUkii, Esq. 
 
 not be improved by the presence of an intclliiient servant of the Compain', 
 
 who may have held hi^h judicial situiitions in India r— Yes ; I thini< it would ' '° ^^""^l' '2j3- 
 
 15SS. Do )ou think retired judges of the Supreme Court are equally well 
 (jualified for such an ottice by any practical experience which they can' have 
 obtained in the Supreme Court of the native i)rijuiliecs and customs .' — I 
 should not tliink native prejudices and customs are much concerned in cases 
 before the Supreme Courts ; Init I say this without having examined into the 
 matter. 
 
 i.OlJo. Do you think, taking the whole judicial system as it exists, substantial 
 justice is adnnnistered ?— I doulit it in small cases ; I think it is in all others, 
 but there is great delay in it. 
 
 \f)C)o. Cliainnau.'] Do you mean that justice is deferred, or that justice is 
 not administered? — I mean that our system is too ex|)ensive and dilatory for 
 .small claims, which are therefore practically excluded from our courts. That 
 in other cases justice is administered, but it is attended with great delay, and 
 expense too. 
 
 1591. 'Slv. .Elliot.'] You consider the administration of justice as substan- 
 tially satisfactory, as far as the decisions of the courts go ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 ifjO-i. 'ihe natives are generally considered a litigious people, are not they .^ 
 — Yes, they are. 
 
 i.'-,!)^. Do you think, if there were no stamps used, the effect would be to 
 niuhiply in a great degree the number of causes which are brought forward 
 really for the sake of gaining time in the settlement of claims r — No, 1 think 
 not ; my object is to faciliate justice as much as possible. 
 
 1 594. You do not think that the fact of there being stamp duties to pay has 
 any effect in diminishing the number of causes ? — I think the poor are kept out 
 of Court now more than they would be ; and so far the stamps tend to keep 
 down the number of causes. 
 
 1595. Do }ou think that the stamp acts as a check upon trivial and impioper 
 questions being brought before the Court ? — I think that the people who prefer 
 unfounded claims are generally those who can afford to pay for the stamps. 
 
 \^)\)b. Mr. Banke/i.'] Where is the criminal code of the Mahomedan law 
 which at present prevails in the Courts to be found r — 1 here are various 
 bool>s of law ; some have been translated into English. 
 
 1597. Is there any well-recognised code by means of which a person may 
 make himself acquainted with the law as it actually prevails ? — Yes, if he 
 understands Ai'abic. 
 
 1598. Is there any recognised English translation of such a code? — No, not 
 a translation of the whole code. 
 
 1599. Is it possible that a British subject may be tried by a law which he is 
 not able to read in his own language? — In my |)revious answer I forgot the 
 Hidaya, or Guide, a work which contains, I should say, all the Mahomedan 
 criminal law, which was translated into English many years ago by order of the 
 Government. 
 
 1600. May it not happen that a British subject may be amenable to the 
 Mdhomedan law in some distant province, and may be tried by a law which he 
 has no means of understanding r — Most crimes are mentioned in our regula- 
 tions, and the punishments apportioned to them ; but the regulations contain 
 few definitions of offences. 
 
 1601. Sir (\ IVood.'] A British subject would not be amenable to any ]Maho- 
 medan criminal code, would he? — That is the only criminal law that the courts 
 administer, but greatly modified by the regulations. 
 
 1602. Is a British subject in the provinces amenable to the INIahomedau 
 criminal law? — He is not now; he is merely subject to the Supreme Court. 
 
 1603. Mr. J^a/ike.s.] Is that the case as to all offences? — Ye*. 
 
 1604. Mr. Manffhs-] If a European were accused of murder in the Upper 
 Provinces he must be sent to the Supreme Court? — Yes. 
 
 1(105. Sir ('. Jf'ood.] Is not it one of the great defects of the law of India, 
 that a British subject, except in the Presidency towns, is amenaljle to no 
 criminal law which can be administered on the spot ? — 1 think lately there has 
 been an extension of one of the provisions in the .'\ct of the j3d of George the 
 3d, which gave a justice of the peace jurisdiction in cases where a Britisli sub- 
 ject had ill-used a native ; that, lawyers decided, only related to cases in which 
 
 0. 1 o. there
 
 106 MINUTES OF EVIUENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 f. MiUett, Esq. there was a British subject on one side and a native on the other. Now I 
 
 believe it has been extended to cases in which both sides may be British subjects. 
 
 10 March 1853. i(io6. That is the summary jurisdiction which the Enghsh magistrate appHes 
 to British subjects now in the distant provinces ? — Yes. 
 
 1607. Sir J. Hoggi\ Is it not the fact, that a Britisli subject in the provinces 
 is not subject to the jurisdiction of any of the criminal courts, except in a few 
 specified cases of assaults connuittod upon natives '\ — Yes. 
 
 1608. All other offences connnitted by a British subject within the provinces 
 must be tried by the Supreme Court in Calcutta ? — Exactly so ; there are one 
 or two exceptions, as where he becomes a public officer ; that is, a moonsiff or 
 sudder aroin ; then he is subject to the Company's courts for malversation. 
 
 i(io(). Mr. Hnmc.\ Is it your opinion that that state of things should con- 
 tinue .' — Certainly not. 
 
 1610. Are you of opinion that the laws, as regards both Europeans and 
 natives, should be administered in the Upper Provinces as well as in Calcutta? 
 — Every native and every European, whether he be French, German, Spanish, 
 or Portuguese, is subject to our criiuinal courts ; a British subject is the only 
 exception. I think he ought to be made amenable to our courts ; I think if 
 he were made subject to our criminal courts to-morrow, no injustice would be 
 done him. 
 
 1611. Sir T. H. Maddock.] Unless some measure of that kind is adopted, to 
 render Englishmen subject to the courts of the country, will it not be abso- 
 lutely necessary, in consequence of the increasing number of Europeans settled 
 in the North \A'estern Provinces of India, to provide another Supreme Court 
 in those provinces ? — I would rather make them amenable to ours. 
 
 1612. If that is not done, do not you consider that justice will require the 
 establishment of another Supreme Court ? — Justice will require some iiieasure 
 of that kind. 
 
 1613. Do you think it would be more desirable to make them amenable in 
 all cases, except cases of felony, to the courts which now administer justice to 
 all others ? — Yes. 
 
 1614. Would you except cases of felony? — I would except capital cases only. 
 161.5. Wy. Hihbjard.'] Do you think you could conveniently dispense with 
 
 written pleadings in cases where you wish to retain the right of appeal ? — I 
 think so. 
 
 1 6 1 6. To whom would you entrust the duty of drawing up the case for the 
 decision of the Court of Appeal .'■ — The judge should draw it up throughout. 
 
 1617. Would you entrust to the judge the duty of drawing up the case upon 
 which an appeal was to be made against his own judgment .•* — In case of appeal 
 his own judgment goes up as it stands; he makes no addition to it after appeal. 
 
 1618. It goes up at present upon the issues raised by the pleadings r — Yes. 
 i6i(). That you v ould dispense with and allow him to state the whole case 
 
 from beginning to end P — I would allow him to draw the issues himself, as he 
 is ordered to do under the regulations ; the issues are drawn, or ought to be so, 
 under his direction. 
 
 i6jo. "SW. Elliot.'] ^^'ould not you extend the jurisdiction of the Company's 
 courts, to enable them to inflict capital punishment in the case of murder by a 
 European r — Yes. The exception of capital cases in my previous answer had 
 reference to the limitation imi)oscd on the legislative power of the local Govern- 
 ment on this point. 
 
 i(r2i. Sir r. II. Muddork.] In tliat case, if yon would have British subjects 
 and Europeans generally in the North Western Provinces tried by the pro- 
 vincial courts, why should not British svd)jects and other Europeans be tried 
 at the same coiu'ts in the viciiiitv of Caleutta, and in Calcutta itself? — I would 
 retain the jurisdiction of tlie Supreme Court in Calcutta, in deference to the 
 feelings of the European inhabitants of tlie city. 
 
 Frederick James llalUday, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 
 
 F. J. llaWday, \(rl2. Cluiin/i/ni.] WILL you state to the Conmiittee for what period you 
 l-sq- have been in the. service in India, and what situations you have held? — 1 went 
 to the service originally in 1825; I left India about eight months ago ; alto- 
 gether 1 have been in tlie service between 27 and 28 years. I was employed 
 during the first nine or ten jears in subordinate offices of the Revenue and the 
 
 Judicial
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 107 
 
 Judicial l)ei)artineiits, accordini:; to the usual routine by which men rise, till 1 F. J. Ualliday, 
 became a magistrate and collector ; from that I hecame Secretary to the Board l^sq. 
 
 of Revenue in Calcutta, and a year afterwards Secretary to the Government of 
 
 Bengal ; that was in 1837; there I remained till 1848, when I becauie Secretary '" '^''"■'^'' ^^'>^- 
 to the Ciovernment of India in the Home Department, in which capacity I was 
 employed till I left India, eight months ago. 
 
 1623. You have heard the statement made by previous witnesses of the 
 general system of judicature in India ; is that in the main correct r — Yes. 
 
 1624. You have had very recent experience, and can therefore inform the 
 Conunittee what you consider to be the present state of the judicial system; 
 whether there are defects existing in it, and if so, what remedies you would 
 suggest r — The present state of the judicial system is not thoroughly satis- 
 factory ; at the same time, I am not disposed to agree with the violent com- 
 plaints which have been made against it by some parties ; on the contrary, 
 considering the great difficulties against which the Government always had to 
 contend, the character of the people, as we took them in hand, being very 
 corrupt, quite devoid of truth, and liavingno notion of integrity, or of the claims 
 of the administration of justice, it is wonderful that so much has been done; 
 even in mv own time the improvement has been gradual, but certain and 
 marked, and at the present moment, I can only say that it is astonishing how- 
 much is done, though I could wish a great deal more were done, and I expect 
 to see great improvement in future, in consequence of the spirit which is 
 existing there, and tiie intelligent and earnest desire on the part of all public 
 men there to forward and improve the system in every possible way. The defect, 
 I obsei've, is chiefly a want of simplicity and rapidity in the administration 
 of civil justice, and in the lower departments, among the lower classes of 
 judges, perhaps not a sufficient confidence in the minds of the people in 
 their integrity, owing chiefly to their being insufficiently paid, and to the 
 system being so complex, as to render it necessary that they should have 
 about them a numbei' of inferior officers, clerks and other ministerial officers, 
 to whose malpractices, I believe, in a great measure, any bad character 
 which may attach to those subordinate jurisdictions is chiefly owing. Of 
 course the remedy would be to simj)lify the proceedings ; to render the 
 administration of justice, especially in the smaller classes of cases, more sum- 
 mary; and to pay the lower classes of judges better, so that they might be more 
 trusted, so that you might in the smaller cases get rid of the necessity of 
 appeals, which appeals are now encouraged only because you cannot feel your- 
 self authorised in trusting, without ajipeal, a man paid at the rate of 120 /. 
 to 180/. a year, and exercising considerable judicial powers, the very necessity 
 of this appeal rendering their proceedings complex, and, as I have said, obliging 
 them to employ a number of ill-paid, hungry, and grasping ministerial officers. 
 If those men were better paid they might, of course, be better trusted ; you 
 might then, I imagine, entrust the administration of justice somewhat upon 
 the footing of the county courts in this country in all the mass of litigation, 
 which is almost entirely of that petty and small character, to those men, that 
 is to say, of the moonsiflfs, of whom I am now speaking, without any regular 
 and constant system of appeal. You might leave them, in cases of more import- 
 ance, to proceed in a more formal and technical manner, and subject such cases 
 to appeal ; and )ou must, in that case, trust to the results of your observation 
 of the appeals in the higher and more complex cases decided by them to 
 enable you to judge whether, on the whole, they were administering justice in 
 the larger class of small cases without appeal satisfactorily, and deal with them 
 accordingly ; I know of no better way of doing it than that. You cannot do 
 without the assistance of the natives in the administration of justice, even if 
 it were desirable that you should ; and, on the whole, they have under my own 
 eye so improved in character and integrity, so gradually purified tliemselves, 
 and are evidently in such a process of self-purification, great exertion being 
 made by the Government and the officers of the Government for that purpose, 
 that there is every reason to hope that the improvement whi(;h I myself have 
 seen, and now speak of, will be permanent and progressive. 
 
 1625. Sir C. Wnnd-I How is the mode of proceeding in the moonsiflfs' 
 courts regulated r — The mode of proceeding in the moonsiff's court is, on tiie 
 whole, with trifling diff"erences of detail, into which it is unnecessary to enter, 
 the same as in the judge's court. The mode of proceeding in all the civil 
 
 0,10. O 2 courts
 
 loS MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. J. Hailiuuij, courts is, on the ^vhole, the. same ; the technicaUty which is obsei'ved in an im- 
 Esq. portant and coniphcated suit before a zillah judge is exactly the same techni- 
 
 cahty which is observed in a trifling suit for a small debt of 10 rupees, or even 
 
 'o .March 1853. ftve rupees, before a moousiff; the consequence of which is, that though, all 
 things considered, the decisions in those courts are wonderfully rapid, they are by 
 no means so prompt as the nature of the cases before them requires. I think the 
 average time that a case takes in a moonsiff's court, and 1 speak more of tlie 
 moonsifFs, because they monopolise the greater part of the litigation of the 
 country, is from four to live months, and I believe myself, that it would not 
 be possible to get even an undefended case through a moonsiff's court under two 
 months. I believe I am understating the time. It is quite clear that for such 
 a people as we have to legislate for, who live from hand to mouth, and cannot 
 go aviiiy from their agricultural concerns, and whose witnesses cannot be called 
 and kejjt awa}' for a length of time, and who have no means to pay agents, 
 such a delay is, in fact, almost a prohibition, f have seen a statement, which I 
 have no reason to distrust from any knowledge that I possess on the subject, 
 that in a moonsiff's court the ordinary expenses of obtaining and executing a 
 judgment for 10 rupees woidd be ujnvards of nine rupees, and the time, as I 
 have stated, supposing it to be defended, would exceed certainly two or three 
 months. Yet with all this, I think in the year 1 850, so great is the demand 
 for justice, the moonsiffs decided somewhere about 80,000 cases in Bengal 
 alone, the immber of moonsiffs being 220, or thereabouts, the average value of 
 each case being only GO or (3 1 rupees. 
 
 1 626. By what authority could any alteration in this mode of proceeding be 
 made? — The only authority would be that of the Legislature of India. The 
 Legislature of India is quite competent to alter it, and the tendency of the 
 opinion of public men and public acts and measures in India is quite in the 
 direction to which I have been drawing the attention of the Committee, 
 namely, to introduce what has oidy lately, I believe, been introduced into this 
 countr}^, sunnnary jurisdiction in small civil cases, and the discouragement of 
 appeal in such cases. Of course, vou have to contend against the doubtful 
 ciiaracter, to say the best of it, which at present attaches, and for some years 
 must attach, to comparatively untried natives ; but great pains are taken in 
 their selection, and some pains also in their education. Tiie moonsiffs are 
 incited by being made almost the sole recipients of promotion to the higher 
 ranks of uncovenanted judges, and I think that very little more is wanting to 
 make them what they should be than a more liberal rate of pay ; that also is 
 thoroughi}" understood, ami I believe nothing has prevented its being acted on 
 ])ut the actual want of means. I have seen repeatedly, upon recent occasions, 
 opinions recoi'ded by the (iovernment, to the effect that one of the very first 
 measures of internal improvement to which any jtecuniary means in their power 
 should be devoted, was the better paying of the moonsiffs, being, as they are, 
 the very foundation of the judicial system of the country. 
 
 i()27. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand, when you speak of 
 better ])ay, that you would have superior persons in the station of moonsiffs, or 
 that it would ))ut them more bevond the reach of temptation ? — I suppose both. 
 1 suppose that jjcrsons receiving better pay would be more out of the reach of 
 tein])tation, and I supjjose tliat that aUnie wouhl attract superior persons to the 
 service ; besides, the general resix'ctability of the whole class must of necessity 
 be raised, and thereb)' a higher class of persons brought into it. But of course 
 when I propose to raise the salaries of those men I propose also to look in every 
 case for men of the liighest jjossible (lualifieatious, and it very probat)ly would 
 follow, that in raising the jjay, the Government also would raise the standard of 
 qualification. I would seek, for men of a higher class, more considerable 
 education and greater trustworthiness. 
 
 Kij.S. Do the moonsiffs i)ass through any examination before they are ap- 
 ))ointed r — They do. At present the system by which the moonsifFs are se- 
 lected is this : there is an aimual examination held by committees in different 
 l)arts of the country and by a central committee sitting in Calcutta, the com- 
 mittees being very carefully chosen, the central connnittee having at least one 
 judge of the Sudder Court upon it. The committees in the country report to 
 the central connnittee in Calcutta, and upon their reports, digested and corro- 
 borated by the connnittee in Calcutta, certain individuals who have passed the 
 examination satisfactorily, receive diplomas qualifying them to have the pre- 
 ference
 
 10 March 1853. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. ico 
 
 jierence for the ajjpointnient of moonsifF whenever it shull full vacant. 'J'lie F. J. IJalinLii/, 
 nanu'.s of tliosc nn'n aiv tlicn recorded in the office of the Sadder (,'ourt, and as '• 
 
 vacancies occur they are offered to those men in succession accordini^ to tlieir 
 standina; on this list. Moonsitfs are no otherwise .appointed except, 1 think, 
 that the law officers of the court are considered by their position to liave the 
 .right to the nioonsifFs appointments, if they should be thought otherwise fit, 
 witiiout going through the process of examination, their position of native law 
 officers being of itself a sufficient diploma. 
 
 1(129. '^^^^ Committee have been informed that the .salary of the moon.siffs 
 varies from 100 to 150 rupees a month? — One-fourth of the number have I.'jO 
 rupees a month, the remainder 100 rupees a month ; besides which they have 
 .a small and ver\' inadequate allowance to enable them to provide clerks and 
 stationery. 
 
 i(i30. Cannot they live comfortably upon that salary r — They cannot live in 
 such a style as a person clothed with that amount of authority in Bengal would 
 .expect to live in. 
 
 i()3i. What would it be equivalent to in this country ? — I have not sufficient 
 experience to make any comparisons of that sort. The Sudder Court receives 
 periodically from the judges of the zillahs, under whom the moonsiffs are placed, 
 reports of their character and conduct ; and they have also the means, by 
 deciding si)ecial appeals from the decisions of the moonsiffs, of forming a judg- 
 ment themselves of the character of those moonsiffs. From those sources the 
 Sudder Court prepare a register, which is submitted every half year to the Go- 
 vernment, in which the names of the moonsiffs entitled to ])romotion in con- 
 sequence of their merit, with the reasons assigned, and all particulars regarding 
 their conduct and character, are entered. From this register, which states the 
 comparative fitness, and comparative merits and claims for promotion of those 
 upon it, the Government is in the habit of selecting for vacancies to sudder 
 aminships as they offer ; so that a moonsiff who obtains the good opinion of 
 his immediate superior, who is in the habit of constantly hearing appeals from 
 liinj, and who, from being on the spot, has or ought to have the means of form- 
 ing a sound opinion tipon his conduct and character, is certain of having his 
 name entered in this list of meritorious individuals, and certain, as a vacancy 
 occiu's, of being promoted according to the opinion entertained of his merits, 
 and according to that only. In like manner, from similar lists sent up of the 
 sudder amins, the class immediately above the moonsiffs, the Government selects 
 for promotion to the principal sudder aminships, who are the highest class of 
 judges appointed out of the covenanted service. 
 
 i()32. You stated that great exertions were made for the improvement of 
 the character of tliose who were appointed to native judicial offices ; will you 
 mention what exertions you alluded to .'—I have already spoken of them. 
 Great pains and labour are bestowed by those committees of wb.ich I speak in 
 testing the qualifications and the acquirements of candidates for moonsitiships 
 when they come before them. There are examinations, first of all, by the 
 country committees, which again are most carefully sifted and tested by the 
 Calcutta committee, so that, as far as possible, no person can obtain a diploma 
 who has not passed a very severe examination. More than thai;, no person is 
 .allowed to enter the lists to compete at any of those examinations who has not 
 received from the judge of a district a certificate that he is not disqualified by 
 any known defect of character from being appointed to the situation which he 
 is supposed to seek by coming to this examination. Again : after the judges 
 are once ajipointed, pains are taken by sifting their judgments in appe;d, of 
 course, to ascertain what character they bear by examining the reports of the 
 zillah judges, and by very carefully preparing this register which I have 
 described. Every exertion, in fact, is made, which can be made to ensure the 
 promotion and advancement only of the fittest persons. 
 
 1633. You have stated the course of appointment of the native judges ; will 
 you state to the Committee what is the course pursued in the appointment and 
 promotion of those Europeans who are charged with judicial authority: — The 
 general course of the service of a covenanted civil officer in Bengal after he 
 leaves the College of Fort William is, that he is api)ointed an assistant to a 
 magistrate and collector in the interior ; in that capacity he has to decide 
 petty eases of assault and civil matters of small importance, such as may be 
 conunitted to him by the magistrate, his immediate superior ; and he has also, 
 
 0,10. O 3 under
 
 110 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F.J.Halliday, under the collector, to transact such l)u&iness, which often is (/;<«*? judicial, in 
 Esq. the revenue department arising in the collector's office as the collector may 
 
 think fit to intrust to him, always subject to the collector's own revision, and in 
 
 10 March 1853. ^Y\^ ^.j^g^ ^f j.|,p u^agistrate, to the magistrate's revision. After a time spent in 
 this way, if he is well reported of by his superior, his powers in both depart- 
 ments, and also his allowances, are increased ; but of late years this has not been 
 done without a second, and even a third, very strict examination, which goes 
 to a very complete knowledge of the vernacular, and to an acquaintance with 
 the laws' and regulations and practice of the departments in which he has been 
 serving and has to serve. After that he becomes usually a magistrate (I am 
 now speaking of the Lower Provinces of Bengal), and in that capacity he may 
 remain five or six years or more ; he then becomes a collector, and usually after 
 serving three or four 3 ears as a collector he becomes a judge of a zillah. 
 
 1 634. Is there any inconvenience or objection to the union of the duties of 
 a collector and those of a magistrate .■' — In the Lower Provinces of Bengal, 
 except in two particular cases, which arj considered exceptions to the general 
 rule, the offices of magistrate and collector are not joined, but in every other 
 part of India they are. I am so far from thinking tliat tliere is any objection 
 to the union, that I think there are many reasons, though i was formerly of 
 the contrary opinion, why the junction is advisable ; and I am desirous myself 
 to see the offices again joined in Lower Bengal, as they are in every other part 
 of India at this moment. 
 
 it)35. Will you state your reasons for that opinion? — I do not mean to say 
 that, supposing the service to be large enough, and the means of paying them to 
 be large enough, so that you could get men of sufficient experience sufficiently 
 well paid to fill separately both offices, the separation might not be advisable, 
 because, of course, it would lea^-e to each officer more leisure, and give the 
 opportunity for an undivided attention ; but the fact is, you have neither men 
 nor money, and the consequence, in Bengal, has been that the office of the 
 magistiate has actually fallen into hands too young to hold it. It has been a 
 general subject of complaint, and I think it has been a sound complaint, that 
 the magisti-ates are, generally speaking, too young, especially when they are 
 brought in contact, as in many parts of Bengal they necessarily are. with 
 English planters. This will appear to be so when you consider the great juris- 
 diction they have, extending to a power of imprisonment for three years. 
 There are a good many men in Bengal now who are exercising those large 
 powers, who have not been more than five years in the country ; and I should 
 sa}^ that probably from five, and even four, to nine or ten years' residence in the 
 country is about the average standing of a magistrate. By joining the magis- 
 tracy with the coUectorship, you obtain immediately greater experience and 
 more mature age, and probably, on the whole, greater trustworthiness. At pre- 
 sent, the duties of a collector in Lower Bengal are not sufficient by any means 
 to occupy the whole of his time. When the offices were separated in Bengal, 
 the case was otherwise ; the collectors were very much overworked, and being 
 pressed at that particular time to attend very closely to their duties in the 
 Revenue di'partment, there was a complaint, not unfounded, that they somewhat 
 neglected the duties of the magistracy, and under that pressure, besides other 
 reasons, the separation was made. That reason for the separation, at all 
 events, does not exist now, but the collectors have full time to devote themselves 
 to the princi})al j)art of the work of a magistrate in their districts ; and I be- 
 lieve they would be verj' well occupied in so doing. 
 
 ir)3(). The union of the two employments does not, in your opinion, injure 
 the magisterial office in the native estimation r— Not at all ; on the contrary, 
 I believe, in the native estimation, the idea of a union and fusion of all autho- 
 rities in one hand is very familiar, and very much approved of; and that the 
 true native idea of governing a district, would be by one person exercising 
 all the authority in all branches, as is now actually done in the Punjaul), 
 though I do not pretend to say that 1 could advise it in Bengal at present. So 
 far as it goes, however, the union of the magistracy and the coUecstorship would 
 be a stej) towards a union of offices. 
 
 1637. Is the frequent removal which occurs of Europeans emph)ycd in 
 judicial offices, from one province or one district to another, injurious to the 
 administration of justice r— The fact that there are frequent removals exists, 
 though it has been verv greatly exaggerated ; and no doubt, so far as it exists, 
 
 it
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 1 1 1 
 
 /'. .1. UalUday, 
 
 it is and must be an evil, especially when you consider tliat there are various 
 
 languages spoken in different parts of the Proidcncy : and that, owing to the 
 
 actual exigencies of the service, you are often obliged against your will, accord- ■ - 
 
 ing to a system which I hope will before very long be amended if possibh', to 'o March 1*53. 
 
 send a man from a district the language of which he understands, to a district 
 
 the language of which he says he hopes he may by and by understand. 
 
 iGjbi What remedy for that evil would you propose? — The remedy has 
 commenced alread}-, by a very stringent examination in the languages, first in 
 the College of Fort WiUiam, which i.lways existed; secondly, an examination 
 after the young man has been a year out of the college, to test his further 
 progress; and thirdly, a very severe examination, before he can obtain the situ- 
 ation of magistrate. 'J'hat has produced already, and will infallibly jjroduce 
 generally in the service, a much better knowledge of the vernacular than has 
 ever prevailed heretofore : it has already produced it to a remarkal)le degree. 
 When it hai; been a sufficient time in operation, and after sufficient notice, I 
 see no reason why the Government siioukl not, iu ])rinciple, refuse to send men 
 to districts in tlie language of which they have not previously passed an exami- 
 nation. That would be at present im])racticable, but things are tending 
 towards it, and I have no doubt it will ultimately be adopted. 
 
 1639. Is there any other inconvenience arising from a frequent change ? — 
 No doubt there is ; a man always derives an advantage from a knowledge of 
 the district and the people, and their customs and habits ; he also knows the 
 course of litigation, and he probably may be in the middle of a number of 
 suits, which are suddenly broken off on his removal. In that sense, change 
 must, of course, be prejudicial. On the other hand, it is not desirable, in 
 India particularly, that men should be kept permanently, or for any great 
 length of time, in one district ; they not only acquire prejudices, and perhaps, 
 owing to the extraordinary tact of the natives, get imbued with little party 
 fancies and discussions, but also, in India particularly, it is I think extremely 
 prejudicial to a man's health and energies to be kept very long in one station. 
 Also, a reasonable amount of removal and change of men has a tendency to 
 diffuse improvements ; men see different methods of administration in dif- 
 ferent districts, and perhaps amend the existing method, and introduce their 
 own improvements into the districts into which they are removed. 
 
 1640. Is it your view that the pay of the moonsiffs only is inadequate, or 
 does your opinion of the inadequacy of the salaries apply to all the native 
 judges ? — I cannot say that I think the salaries of the classes above the moon- 
 siffs are generally inadequate, though I think improvements might be made 
 by introducing a few much higher salaries as special prizes in the various 
 departments. At present, a man who has spent his whole life as a judge, in 
 the service of the Government, may rise to a salar\^ of 600 rupees a month, 
 but he can rise no iiigher ; after that, no exertion, no merit can raise him, in 
 t hat department at all events ; and I confess I think it would be an improve- 
 ment, and probably a very economical mode of exciting a good spirit among 
 the native judges, if a few larger prizes for natives, very large prizes, were 
 placed before them as objects of hope, to be given, of course, only in cases of 
 special merit. 
 
 1(141. One improvement which you would suggest would be the simplifi- 
 cation of legal proceedings ; do you mean by that, what a witness has suggested, 
 the abolition of written pleadings .' — My notion is, that the system of oral plead- 
 ing is scarcely applicable to complicated and difficult and important civil cases, 
 so that I do not desire to introduce a system of oral i)leading in the very heavy 
 and intricate and important cases which do undoubtedly occur in our courts ; 
 what I meant was, that there is a very large mass of litigation to which I appre- 
 hend that a system of oral pleading and examination of the parties, and a 
 prompt and paternal administration of justice, is particularly applicable, and to 
 that class of litigation, which, in point of number, is the largest class, 1 see 
 no reason why that summary system, without any attempt at appeal, should not 
 be applied. Of the cases decided by the moonsiffs in the year 18.')0, whicli were 
 some 80,000, I observe that full 50,000 were matters of small debt, and 1 7-000 
 or 18,000 were matters of small questions of rent ; there might be even other 
 cases, looking to the classes of suits which are given in some of the Returns, 
 which would be suitable for such an administration of justice as I have in my 
 .mind, and if so, there is no doubt that the more formal and technical courts 
 0.10. O 4 might
 
 112 MIXUTES OF EYIDE.XCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 I". J. Halliday, might be relieved to an immense extent by committing this great mass of j^etty 
 Esq- litigation to a summary tribunal constituted in the manner I am supposing. 
 
 ^C^_^•2. The operation of the Small Cause Court at Calcutta has been bene- 
 10 March 1853. ^f.\^\^ \^^^ not jt p_ y^iy benelieial ; so l)enetieial that there has been recently 
 a petition presented by the merchants and shopkeepers of Calcutta — persons, 
 of course, deepiv interested in it — for an extension of its jurisdiction from .^00 
 rupees to 1,000 rupees, and a very general feeling exists that it is desirable to 
 have it so extended ; they also wish that its jurisdiction should be extended 
 beyond Cideutta, into that j)art of the country round Calcutta which is called 
 the Tuenty-four Pergunnas, winch at present is under the system of the 
 Company's' courts, to which I have before alluded. Owing to that petition the 
 Government in India has deiermined to make the experiment of small cause 
 courts, to be established first at different important centres in the interior, 
 where such courts ai'e likely to be particularly useful. A law has been actually 
 framid, and is, to mv knowledge, now under discussion for that purpose, and 
 the intention is, if those courts should succeed, to extend them to other j)arts 
 of the country, and, ultimately, to amend the system, precisely in the manner 
 which I have suggested. 
 
 i()43. Sir G. Grej/.] Will those proposed courts supersede the native courts of 
 which }0U have been speaking r — Entirely, in the class of cases to which 1 
 allude, but they will themselves be native courts. 
 
 1(144. C/ia/riiian.] AVas it proposed that Europeans or natives should preside 
 in those courts r — There was a difference of opinion as to whether they should 
 be natives or Europeans ; nothing was decided vipon the question. 
 
 1(145. ^li'- Cobdcn.] Will you describe the pi'ogressive pay of an European 
 civihan ? — A young man on his first arrival receives an allowance of 250 rupees 
 a month, which after he has passed an examination in one language is increased 
 to ;^00 rupees a month ; on passing in two languages, he becomes an assistant to 
 a magistrate and collector, in which capacity he receives 400 rupees a month; he 
 is then called on to pass the second examination of which I have spoken, which 
 he may do in a 3'ear, and might do in less ; after that he may receive an addition to 
 his salary of 100 rupees a month, making .')00 rupees a month ; he may probably 
 remain for about two or even three j-ears more upon that rate. But if he passes 
 the third examination according to the recent system earlier, he will obtain the 
 next step so much earlier, which is a salary of 700 rupees a month, given to what 
 are called joint magistrates and deputy collectors. From that he rises to 900 
 ru])ees a month, which he may obtain in about nine years as magistrate, having 
 I .should say already exercised in other offices the powers of a magistrate, 
 though not iDcai'ingthe name nor di-awing the salary. As a magistrate, accord- 
 ing to the j)resent system, a man may remain a great number of years, nine or 
 ten years. The more recently ajjpointed collectors are, I think, of at least 19 
 years' standimr, and they receive a salary of 23,000 rupees a year. The expec- 
 tation of promotion to a judgeship now-a-days is not under 24 years, and th.en 
 a man receives a yearly salary of 30, 000 rupees. I should say, however, that 
 I am describing what is considered to be a depressed state of the service with 
 regard to ])r()motion, and one wliich is very much complained of, but it actually 
 exists at this moment. 
 
 i()4t). AVhen vou speak of arriving at the station of a judge with 30,000 
 rui)ees a year, does that still include the collectoi'ship ? — No ; he has left the 
 collectorship, and has passed to a judgeship. 
 
 i()47. Will you be good enough to describe what is the difference between 
 the functions of the highest chiss of native judges wlio get 000 rupees a month, 
 and the highest class of iMU'opean judges who get 30,000 rujjees a year ? — 
 I am not aware f)f anv difference, except that the Eiu'oi)(>an judge is a criminal 
 judge ; the other is onl)' a civil judge, exercising in some cases also the power, 
 greater or less, as the case may be, of a magistrate, but in a subordinate 
 manner. Also, the judgi' hears ap))eals up to the value of .''),000 rupees from 
 the officer to whom yon allude — tlie inicovenantcd judge at GOO rupees a month. 
 In other respects, their functions are the same. 
 
 1()4<S. Does the native judge decide eases of as large an amount as the other? 
 — Quite as large an amount ; they are botli unlimited in amount. 
 
 1649. There is the right of api)eal from the native to the European judge r 
 — Yes, uj) to .'j,000 rupees ; beyond that, the appeal from the native judge 
 goes to the tS udder Court. 
 
 1650. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 ««3 
 
 1650. Mr. Mauoles.] The European judge has, in fact, the tiuperintenclence 
 of the system, iuul reports periodically to the Siidder Court as to the qualifica- 
 tions, the conduct, and character of those native judges? — He does; he is in 
 fact resixmsihle for the general administration of justice in his district. 
 
 /■. ./. Ila/liriay, 
 10 March 1853. 
 
 Luiia; 14' die Martii, 1853. 
 
 MFMBERS present: 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 
 Mr. Baillif. 
 
 Mr. Newdegale, 
 
 Mr. Laboucheie. 
 
 Sir U. U. Inolis. 
 
 Viscount Jocelyn. 
 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 
 Mr. Milner Gibson. 
 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 
 Mr. John FiizGerald. 
 
 Sir James VV. Hogtr. 
 
 Mr. Hume. 
 
 Mr. Bankes. 
 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 
 Mr. Spooner. 
 
 Mr. Edvvaid Ellicc-. 
 
 Sir Georsje Grey. 
 
 SirT. H.'Maddock. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 General the Right Honourable IJu^h Viscount Gough, g.c.b.. Examined. 
 
 1651. Chairman.'] IN what year did your Lordship first serve with the Indian 
 Army ? — I was appointed to, and assumed the command of, the Mysore division 
 in September 1837- 
 
 1652. That was at Madras? — At Madras. 
 
 1653. You held the command of the Madras army for several years ? — I 
 commanded the Mysore division ; I only commanded the Madras army during- 
 the interval of Sir Henry Vane's I'csigning the chief command at Bengal, and 
 Sir Stamford Whittingham assuming the command at Madras. As senior 
 officer, I was then appointed. Commanding in chief the troops at Madras, which 
 situation I retained till the arrival of Sir Stamford Whittingham, when I 
 resumed the command of the Mysore division, which I retained till I was ap- 
 pointed to the chief command of the expeditionary force in China. 
 
 1654. What is your opinion of the discipline and efficiency of the Madras 
 army ? — I have the highest opinion both of the discipline and efficiency of the 
 Madras army. 
 
 1655. Did you find them satisfied with the service ? — Perfectly ; I never found 
 any discontent among them ; there is sometimes, as there always will be, in an 
 army so composed, a little dissatisfaction if there is any curtailment of their 
 pay or allowance, or any supposed deviation from the system under which they 
 are engaged, but generally speaking they are most contented and most obe- 
 dient, and I think most loyal. 
 
 1656. In what year did you succeed to the command of the army of India.' 
 — I arrived at Calcutta on the 8th of August 1843, and was immediately 
 sworn in as Commander-in-chief of the Indian army, shortly after my return 
 from China. 
 
 1657. In the course of the various campaigns in which you were engaged 
 with the army of India, you had frequent opportunities of judging of their 
 efficiency and discipline : will you state to the Committee what is your impres- 
 sion of their efficiency in the field- — Having commanded the army of Bengal 
 in three campaigns, in the Gwalior, the Sutlege, and the Punjaub, and having 
 only commanded a portion of the army of Madras, in China, and a very small 
 portion of the Bombay army in the last campaign, the Punjaub campaign, I 
 can speak more decidedly of the Bengal army than of the other two ; the 
 
 0.10. P Madras 
 
 Vi 
 
 Right Hon. 
 !>count Gougl 
 
 C. C.B. 
 
 1 4 Maicli 1853.
 
 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Right Hon. 
 
 Viscount Goo^k, 
 
 c. c. B. 
 
 H March 1853. 
 
 field? — I think there might 
 
 Madras army I had the highest opinion of, as I stated before, whilst under my 
 command, upon service in China, as also of the small proportion of the Bombay 
 army in the Punjaub. The Bengal army I think very highly of indeed ; I 
 recorded my opinion to that effect. 1 feel hajjp}- in stating that 1 conceive 
 their eflBciency and their devotion to the service highly crediUible to them, and 
 beneficial to the country. 
 
 1658. Were tlieir arms and equipment such as you approved? — No. I 
 think the firelock is much too heavy for the sepoy, and I should say that very 
 considerable improvement might be made in the arms and equipments of the 
 regular cavalry -nith very great benefit. 
 
 16,59. That observation applies to the swords and saddles? — The swords and 
 the saddles principally. To give an instance of it during the last campaign : I 
 found that the regular cavalry so much ])referred the native sword, that 1 per- 
 mitted them, at the battle of Guzerat, to take into the field the native swords, 
 so that each man had two swords. I did not feel myself justified in taking 
 from them the arm given them by the Cemipany, but I allowed them to have 
 the other also. 
 
 U)6o. Was the commissariat so efficient as to relieve you from all anxiety 
 about the supplies ? — During the three campaigns in which I served, the army 
 under mj^ command was never one day without its full rations; that is, the 
 soldiers; the paid followers were occasionally put upon half rations : but it was 
 unavoidable ; but the soldiers, both European and native, were never one day 
 without their full quota of provisions. 
 
 1661. Did you find the artillery efficient, and not inferior to the Royal artil- 
 lery ? — I considered the artillery one of the most perfect arms that any povyer 
 can possibly have, both as to science and practice. 
 
 1662. Are the horses equal to the work in the 
 be a considerable improvement in the horses ; I think the New South Wales 
 horse is a better draught horse than the stud horse. 
 
 1663. From what sources are the horses now derived? — Generally from the 
 different studs ; almost universally. 
 
 1664. ^ou would prefer the horses from New South Wales ? — Yes, from the 
 trial we had ; one troop of horse artillery were supplied with horses from New 
 South Wales, and they were very far superior ; the horses from the studs would 
 be greatly improved if they were geldings, instead of having them as they are 
 now, entire horses ; indeed I believe at present there is a very large proportion 
 of the cavalry horses that have underirone that operation. 
 
 1665. In the course of your Lordship's experience, did you ever observe that 
 the discipline of the army was at all relaxed ? — When I assumed the command 
 of the army, it was immediately after the unfortunate campaign of Affghanistan. 
 I think the morale of the army was at that time not quite so good certainly as 
 it was formerly, and at the conclusion of the Punjaub campaign ; I consider that 
 the discij)line and the ttwra/e of the army at the latter period was as high as it 
 could possibly be. 
 
 1 666. With regard to the number of European officers present with their 
 regiments in the field, (Hd you (Consider the number to be adequate when in the 
 field ? — Certainly not. 
 
 1 667. In what respect would you suggest an increase ; would it be with regard 
 to the regular or the irregular troojjs ? — With regard to the regular trciops ; in 
 the array all the officers are appointed to the regular troops ; they are only 
 detached from the regular to tlu; irregular. 
 
 1GG8. Arc you of oijinion that a smaller number of troops would be as effi- 
 cient, if commanded by a greater number of European ofiicers, or do you think 
 that the same number of troo])s would still be required with more European 
 officers r — I have no hesitation in saying that I would prefer going into the field 
 with an army consisting of regiments of 800 men well officered, rather than an 
 army consisting of 1,0()() men, with the number of officers now attached. 
 
 1 66g. Wliat number of officers is now attached to the corps of irregular 
 infantry and cavalry ? — A commandant, a second in command, an adjutant 
 and a medical officer, to the irregular cavalry ; the regular infantry varies very 
 mucii, from one to sometimes five. 
 
 1670. You do not consider that number sufficient? — 1 consider it sufficient 
 for the irregular, because they are selected officers ; men best calculated for the 
 duties they have to perform. 1 S])eak of the European officers. 
 
 1671. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 iifi 
 
 those suggestions ? — Every 
 
 1671. Are the Committee to understand your objection as to the number of 
 officers to appl}' to the regular troops ? — To the regular cavalry and infantry, 
 and to the artillery particularly, as the scientific branch of the ser\ ice. 
 
 \6j2. When an officer is taken from the reiz;ular troops, and attached to the 
 irregular, is the vacancy not immediiitely tilled up r — No. 
 
 1(73. Were tlie rules for niaintainiiig regimental eliiciency, by limiting the 
 number of officers to be taken from regiments for the staff, or on tletached 
 emplovments, duly observed whilst vou were in command ? — I should say almost 
 universally. In some few instances officers of a peculiar cast of character 
 were required by the Governor-general, and there was no opportunity of ac- 
 quiring them otherwise than by taking from regiments which had already had 
 their quota taken from them ; l)ut generally speaking, with regard to the Com- 
 mander-in-chief, the Government would have prevented him from appointing 
 an officer Ijeyond what was allowed by the regulations ; the Government of 
 course, being supreme, had the power of doing that ; but, I have no doubt, 
 from what i have experienced of the Government of India, that if the Com- 
 mander-in-chief at any time found any peculiar cause for recommending an 
 officer beyond the regulation for staff or detachment employment, the Govern- 
 ment would accede to it. 
 
 1674. With regard to the baiTacks for the Eui'opean troops, did you consider 
 them sufficiently large and air}' ? — I think the new barracks of recent years, the 
 barracks built by Lord Ellenboi'ough, for instance, were peculiarly well adapted 
 for the purpose of the health and comfort of the troops ; some of the other 
 barracks are exceedingly confined, and very prejudicial to the health of the 
 troops, particularly those of old construction. I cannot speak as to the bar- 
 racks in the Punjaub ; I rather think they were more temporary than permanent. 
 
 1675. Had you ever occasion to make any suggestions for improvements ? — 
 Frequently. 
 
 107(1. Did the Government pay attention to 
 courtesy was paid to the recommendations of the Commander-in-chief; of 
 course in many instances they were not carried out. I had merely to speak of 
 the comfort of the troops ; the Govennnent had to look to the expense that those 
 improvements would be to the Government ; but in every instance I found 
 every willingness, as far as the Government conceived they could go, to attend 
 to the recommendations of the Commander-in-chief. 
 
 1677. Were the rules for pensioning and invaliding the native soldiery con- 
 sidered liberal and satisfactory ? — Most liberal and satisfactory. I consider the 
 pension system as our great hold upon India. I have no doubt of the beneficial 
 effect that will be worked by it when it comes to operate upon the Punjaub. 
 
 1678. Did you find that the native soldiers were desirous to remain in the 
 service, even in preference to being pensioned ? — The pensions are very liberal ; 
 I think they are generally quite adequate to the wants of men in their situation 
 of life in India, therefore I think that generally the man was anxious to get 
 his pension. 
 
 1670. He retired when he was entitled to a pension r — He retired when he 
 was entitled to a pension ; that is, the man is not actually entitled to a pension, 
 but it comes before a committee and he always gets it. There may be a few 
 instances of men who would rather stay a short time longer to get an increased 
 pension, because the amount of the pension depends upon length of service ; 
 but, generally speaking, the native is anxious to get his discharge, and retire 
 uponhis pension, and live with his family, except in the instance of native 
 officers and non-commissioned officers who have not held their rank for three 
 years, as prescribed by regulations, and an* therefore anxious to complete that 
 period. 
 
 1680. Do you consider the service popular with the natives ?— It is very 
 popular ; 1 am quite convinced of that. 
 
 1681. Are recruits readily obtained?— So much so that in most of the regi- 
 ments there are a body of men, relatives of the soldiers, who are ready to till 
 up vacancies. 
 
 1 682. Is it necessary to give any bounty to the native recruits ? — ^o 
 
 1683. What period do they serve before they are entitled to a pension 
 think 15 years. 
 
 1684. Is it permanent enUstment, or enlistment for a certain number of 
 years r —It is permanent enlistment. 
 
 0.10. P ^ 
 
 none. 
 
 I 
 
 Riglit Hon. 
 Viscount Gdugh. 
 
 <.. ( . r.. 
 
 14 March 1853. 
 
 1685. With
 
 ii6 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Right Hon. 
 Viscount Goiigh, 
 
 14 March 1853. 
 
 168,5. With regard to the sepoys at Madras, did you find any difficulty in 
 inducing them to embark for foreign service } — None whatever ; as commander 
 of the force at Madras I attended the embarkation of two regiments for China, 
 and I never saw men of any nation embark with more spirit or more credit to 
 themselves, aUhough there was a host of their wives (which tlie Madras army 
 always have) on the beach at the time. 
 
 1 686. The Committee are aware that in Bengal there is not always the same 
 willingness to go on foreign service ; to meet the difficulty would it be desirable 
 that all the sepoys in Bengal should be enlisted for foreign service ? — I think it 
 would be of advantage, and I have no doubt that the men would enlist as 
 readily. The man requires only that the rules, under which he enlists, should 
 be well explained and carried out. 
 
 1687. Would it affect the description of recruits at all? — 1 do not think it 
 would ; I am not sufficiently conversant with the native character to give a 
 decided opinion ; but the impression upon my mind, from the conversation 
 whi(;h 1 had with officers who are better informed than myself upon the 
 subject, is that it would not. 
 
 i()88. Do you approve of mingling of Sikhs with Hindostanee sepoys in the 
 same regiments ? — It was not the case during my command ; I can only speak 
 therefore from hearsay. It is since I returned that the Sikhs have been 
 introduced into the regular regiments ; I strongly recommended at the first 
 peace after the Sutlege campaign that the Sikhs should be introduced into our 
 array ; and I am quite convinced of their efficienc}', their gallantr)', and their 
 fitness for the service ; I understand that there has been no detriment to the 
 service from the introduction of Sikhs amongst the Hindostanees and Mus- 
 sulmans. 
 
 1 68g. Did you find the corps of Sikhs raised after the first Punjaub war 
 efficient bodies of men ? — Peculiarly so. 
 
 1 690. Should you recommend that the recruiting among the Sikhs should 
 be extended ? — Decidedly. You must have a large force of Europeans and a 
 superior force of native troops ; I would not compose the army entirely of 
 iSikhs, for they are very much attached to their own country ; but I have no 
 <loubt whatever of their efficiency and of their fitness for the service. In short, 
 I would recommend the introduction of a very large portion of Sikhs into the 
 arm}. 
 
 1691. M'ith regard to the present extent of the army, should you consider it 
 necessary to keep it up to its present amount in a time of general peace in 
 India ? — The army of India has a great many duties to perform, and now par- 
 ticularl}' when our territory is so very much extended, and is likely to be 
 extended more by new annexation, I should ])e very sorry to see the army 
 reduced from its present strength. India is a very peculiar country ; you do 
 not know the hour when some outbreak may take place ; and we all know that 
 the peo))le of India have their heads uj) like so many leeches looking out for 
 anytliing that may occxu'. Therefore, 1 think that a reduction of the army 
 to any extent would be injudicious. 
 
 11)92. From your Lordshiji's lengthened experience, the Committee would 
 be very glad to hear any suggestions which occur to you, for the ))urpose of 
 improving the constitution of the army, and the removal of any defects ?— That 
 is a very extended question. Ifpon some i)()ints I have answered t\w (juestion 
 already, with regard to the arming of the infantry, the equipment and arming 
 of the cavalry, and the want of officers ; those are three important jjoints, but 
 there is one other to wliicli I woidd l)('g to draw the attention of the Committee, 
 whi(;h has apjjcared to me very injurious to the efficiency of the army, and 
 exceedingly hard upon the Indian officers : 1 allude to the present system of 
 furlouglis and sick-leaves. I conceive tliat the granting prefrencc for sick-leaves 
 to New South Walc:- and the Cape is extremely injurious ; and I would strongly 
 recommend that the same advantages, or greater, if possible, should i)e given 
 to officers of the Indian army, to come home to England, on sick-leave, ratlior 
 than going to New >outh Wales, or tlie ('ape; in England their minds are 
 enlarged, and they get into difl'erent society from what tluiy naturally meet 
 with in those colonies ; I should tlurefore strongly recommend that the same 
 advantages, ;it all events, should bs; given to officers coming on sick-leave 
 to England as now are accorded to those going to New South Wales and the 
 Cape. In the year 1845 my opinion was required bv the Government, upon 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX INDIAN TERRITORIES. n; 
 
 the subject of furloughs; and I then stronjijly recommended that the periods iiigin Hi.n. 
 miijht be eliansijed. The intercourse with l'^ni!;Iand now is so very expeditious Viscount Goufr/i, 
 that I think it is a <^ieat hardsliip that an ottieer should he prevented for 10 '-<•.". 
 
 years from cominii home without a j^reat sacrifice ; I therefore sti-ongly recom- ' ~ 
 
 men(l(>d that the first })erio(l of furiou<rli should be t^ranted to an oflicer, upon '■*■ ' ""''^ ' ' •'^' 
 his servini^- sciven years, and that upon his serving 10 years, he should have two 
 years' furlough, sujjposing that hi- did not take his furlough for one year after 
 seven years; and after 12 years I should recommend the present system to be 
 continued, namely, a furlough for three years, either fractionally or in the whole. 
 I think also that the system of making staff officers vacate their api)ointments, 
 on coming on sick-leave to England, whilst you allow them to go on sick-leave 
 to New South Wales and to the Cape, is exceedingly injurious l)oth to the 
 service and to the individuals ; I can speak jjractically of that ; I know that 
 many most excellent and efficient officers, most serviceable to the ('omj)aiiy, 
 rather than give uj) good staff appointments, remain for that terra, which con- 
 cludes so many men's lives in India, " one year more," and that many who might 
 have recovered if they had been allowed to come to Englaiul at an earlier 
 period, and have returned, and resumed their active duties with advantage to 
 the country and credit to themselves, have been lost to the service. Therefore 
 I would strongly reconnnend that the officers of the two services, the Queen's 
 and the Company's, should be assimilated in that ; namely, that an officer 
 shoidd return after two years' absence, and resume- his staff appointment : 1 
 have no doubt upon tliat subject. 
 
 1603. Have you any other suggestion to make ? — I think not. There are a 
 great many things which have been proposed for consideration by others ; but 
 1 do not at present recollect any other |)oint of importance. 
 
 it)94. Mr. Hidnc] The Military Board in Bengal has extensive powers con- 
 nected with the barracks and other matters ; can your Lordship give any 
 opinion as to how far the Board, as now constituted, has been efficient, and 
 can you suggest any improvements which might tend to facilitate the business 
 of the service, and, at the same time, to secure a check and control over 
 the expenditure for ])ublic buildings ? — I myself, as Commander-in-chief, had 
 no communication whatever with the Military Board. All the Commander- 
 in-chief's communications are through the adjutant-general to the military 
 secretary of the government, or direct from the Commander-iu-cnief to the 
 Governor-genei-al ; therefore, I had very little opportunity, except for the very 
 short time that I was in Calcutta, of judging of the Military Board. I own, 
 that my impression is not favourable to the Military Board. The fact is, that 
 the Military Board are gentlemen having large duties of their own to perform ; 
 one is the commanding officer of the artillery, who has a great many duties to 
 perform ; another is the commanding officer of the engineers, who has all his 
 own regimental duties to perform ; the third is the commissary-general, who 
 has very vast duties to perform ; and there is one paid officer. 1 really think 
 the working of the Military Board is not satisfactory. 
 
 1(195. Do you mean that you would recommend more individual responsibility 
 on the part of persons whose attention was not distracted by other important 
 duties? — No. I think the heads of the different departments should com- 
 municate more with the Government than merely as a body. The fact is, that 
 ROW things connected with the artillery are principally left to the officer com- 
 manding the artillery, one of the Board, and those connected with the engineers 
 and the barrack department are left very much to the commanding officer of 
 the engineers ; and as to the commissariat, it is very much the same, so that it 
 :nnounts to the same thing, that they are all acting in their several branches, 
 and t'nev are subordinate to none but the Governor general. As a Board, 
 they may all disagree ; the comiucindant of artilkry may disagree with the 
 commissary-genei'al with regard to the provisions of the army ; and the com- 
 missary-general may disagree with the commanding officer of tlie engineers as 
 to the building of barracks. 
 
 1G96. 'i hen at those times, when the Governor-general is absent from the 
 seat of the Military Board, if deficiencies should arise in tin; Board how are 
 they managed?— I cannot answer that question ; 1 think the Governor-general 
 generally has with him an officer attached to the Board. Lord llardinge had 
 such an officer with him, and I think that everything was referred to the 
 (lovernor-general, and no difficulties occurred. 
 
 0.10. p 3 'bpT- -^Ii'-
 
 ii8 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Ilight Hon. 
 
 Viscount Goiigh, 
 
 G. c. B. 
 
 14 March 1853. 
 
 Kioj. Mr. F. Smith.~\ ^'ovi said that there is great facility in obtaining re- 
 cruits for the Indian army ; can you state how a soldier in the Indian arm}' 
 procure!; his discharge, if he wishes it? — By an application through his com- 
 manding officer, which is submitted to the adjutant-general of the army, for 
 the information of the Commander-in-chief. 
 
 1698. !s anv payment made upon the discharge ! — No. 
 
 1699. He cannot Iniy it ? — No, I think not. 
 
 1700. In point of fact, from what you have stated of the desire of the 
 peojdc to eidist in the army, there is no difficulty in procuring a discharge '! — 
 I think not. After having served three yf&ars he is entitled to his discharge, if 
 the country is at ])eace. 
 
 tjoi. Sir T. II. Miiddock.'] (Considering the duties which the officers of the 
 Gueen's army have to perform as divisional commanders, and I)rigade com- 
 manders, either in cantonments or in the field, and when employed on courts 
 martial, is it, in your opinion, necessary or desirable that the officers in the 
 Queen's army sliould possess a knowledge of tlie vernacular languages .' — 
 I do not see that it is a matter of very great consequence, for you always 
 have an interpreter. For instance, when you inspect a regiment you are 
 obliged to inquire if there are any complaints, that is done through an inter- 
 preter. The officer who asks the question, is perhaps not competent to ask it 
 in the native language, nor can he probably know the answer, except through 
 an interpreter. 
 
 1702. But when an officer in the field is commanding, besides his own 
 European troops, native troops, is it not very essential that he should be able to 
 give his orders in the vernacular language? — You give your orders, and they 
 are repeated by the European officers ; you do not give orders actually to the 
 soldiers : if you command an army there is very seldom an instance in which 
 you give a direct order to a soldier ; you generalh' have an interpreter with 
 you, one of your staff, who of necessity must know the language. 
 
 1703. In courts martial would it not be desirable that the Queen's officers 
 should understand the language of the people who are the witnesses, and who 
 are on their trial? — Inasmuch as you know better what a man actually means 
 when yon understand his language than when you hear it interpreted by another; 
 it is very natural that it should be so. 
 
 1 704. Is there any encouragement given by the Government of India to the 
 officers of the Queen's army to (jualify theinselves by a knowledge of the native 
 languasje r — No ; I do not think there is any advantage to an officer of the 
 
 Queen's 
 
 service from Ic no wing 
 
 the language, other than it (pxalities him to 
 
 liold the appointment of interpreter to his own or to one of the other Queen's 
 regiments. 
 
 i7o,> Do you see any objection to an officer of the Queen's army, who has 
 (puilified himself by a perfect knowledge of the native languages, being allowed 
 to hold any political appointment, or any one of those staff employments which 
 are now exclusively given to the Company's officers ?— I should see no objection 
 to many of the ap])ointments being given to the Queen's officers who make 
 themselves competent for the performance of the duties. 
 
 1706. In your Lordship's experience have you found any officers of the 
 Queen's army who were conversant with the native languages ? — Yes, several. 
 
 1707. Do you not suppose that if the encouragement which I have alluded to 
 were given to officers of the Queen's army, to make themselves proficient in the 
 native languages, they would do so - — I have no doubt of it. 
 
 1 70S. What is your Lordship's opinion as to the proper pLice of residence of 
 the Commander-in-chief in India during the occurrence of any hostilities upon 
 the eastern frontier? — There cannot 1)e a douhl, that the Couunauder-in-chief 
 shouhl be as near the sceiu' of operations as possilile, and as near th(> (iovernor- 
 general as practicable, so as to be in communication with him. 
 
 170(). If the Connnaiider-in chief is remaining at Simlah while oj)erations are 
 going on in the Burmese territories, they must, 1 conclude, be carried on with- 
 out any control or any advice on the part of the Commander-in-chief? — I have 
 not known any instance of the kind ; it is oidy a supposition upon which any 
 one can form an opinion ; 1 have said that the Commander-in-chief and tlu^ 
 Governor-general being together when any active operations were performing 
 would be an oI)ject of very great moment. 
 
 1710. Will your Lordsliip have the goodness to state to the Committee what, 
 
 in
 
 SEF.ECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOUIF.S. 119 
 
 in your opinion, are the eflfects that have been produced by the estabUshniont Rjgin Hon. 
 
 of stations in the Mills for the JMn'opcan troops ? — 1 liave no doubt they are Viscount Goug/i, 
 vei-y bencticial for the hcaltli of the troojjs. <;.'. i.. 
 
 1711. Are you of opinion that tiie Hill-stations might be considerably ex- ~ 
 tended? — I think they might; but from the number of your troops in India, ''^ "'' '^^^' 
 you must have a certiiin projxjrtiun at the great btations ; you cannot withdraw 
 
 them all from the low country ; l)ut I have no hesitation in saying that the 
 Hill-stations do greatly contribute to the health of tlie troops, and [jrevent 
 their being invalided so soon as they otherwise would, and thereby Ijccoming 
 very expensive to the State. 
 
 1712. If railways were established from the foot of the hills, by way of 
 Meerut and C'awnpore, would you then think it necessaiy to have European 
 troops at those stations? — Certainly not so necessary; but from the great 
 extent of India you must have troops, 1 think, at particular stations. I should 
 be sorry to see such a great station as Meerut without a large portion of a 
 European regiment. 
 
 1713. Your Lordship has seen so much of the Indian army, both in time of 
 war and in time of jx ace, that perhaps you would favour the Committee with 
 your opinion upon the comparative merits of the regular and irregular native 
 cavalry of the Bengal army? — My opinion is certainly very favoui'able to the 
 irregular cavalry. I have seen instances of very great gallantry and devotion 
 performed by the irregular cavalry, but I think very much depends upon the 
 officer who commands the regiment. Both in the cavalry and the infantry 
 almost everything depends upon the European otficer ; a good officer v\ho inter- 
 mixes with his men, and who shows an interest in their wants and comfort, the 
 men will follow and do anything for him ; but carelessness, or interference with 
 their customs or religious feelings, has a very injurious effect. They are very 
 tenacious of interference of that sort ; and a native regiment would certainly 
 not be so eifective under such an officer, as it would be under an officer of the 
 character I before alluded to. 
 
 1 7 ! 4. In proportion to their numbers are not the regular cavalry much more 
 expensive than the irregular? — Certainly; I should think upwards of twice 
 the expense, but I would strongly urge an increase of pay of the irregular 
 cavalry in Bengal. This is a financial subject, but I am speaking in a military 
 point of view. In the Bengal irregular cavalry a man gets but 20 rupees a 
 month ; he lias to clothe, equip and feed himself, and to find his horse : in short, 
 he is a cavalry soldier for 20 rupees a month. The Nizam's irregular cavalry, 
 which is the finest cavalry perhaps in the world, get 35 rupees a month. I 
 think the irregular cavalry, at Bombay, get 30 to 35 rupees a month. I think 
 there is no place scarcely in whicli they could act so well as in Bengal. I 
 should be very glad to see the Bengal irregular cavalry increased to 25 rupees 
 a month ; and 1 am convinced that they would be as fine and efficient a body 
 of men as vou could wish to have in ease even of an v thing occurrinu: nearer 
 home. 
 
 171.5. That difference in the rate of pay arises, no doubt, from its being 
 cheaper to feed, both man and horse, in the Upper Provinces of India than it 
 is in the Bondjay territories and in the Nizam's country ? — I cannot answer 
 that question jjarticularly, but I know that rate of pay is nei sufficient in many 
 parts of Bengal, and particularly in going upon service. Those soldiers are 
 very hard pressed ; they get into debt, they get involved, and they liorrow 
 money, which is a bad thing always in any country, Imt particular!)- in India. 
 
 171O. Can your Lordship inform the Committee how both the rigular 
 cavalry and the irregular cavalry are em])loyed in time of peace? — The irregular 
 cavalry has a multiplicity of duties connected with the Government, in various 
 ways connected with the civil service of the country. The regular cavalry 
 have not those duties, they are in their cantonments. 
 
 1717. They perform very little servic^e in time of peace? — Very little; there 
 are treasury escorts, for instance ; the native infantry are exceedingl}- hard- 
 worked. I would say that upon the average a soldier of the Indian army is not 
 above two nights out of three in bed ; so it was in my time. 1 believe that by 
 judicious arrangements those duties have been somewhat lightened since ; the 
 Governors-general have always been most anxious to relieve the army from that 
 weight of duty that was thrown upon them by the collectors and civil sujjerin- 
 tendents ; for instance, treasure escorts ; it was quite wonderful the numbers 
 
 0.10. p 4 employed
 
 1 JO 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Rigtit Hon. 
 Viscount Gouf/h, 
 
 G. C. B. 
 
 14 March 1853. 
 
 employed throughout the year in the mere transferring the treasure from ono 
 post to another ; that has been very much done away, both by Lord Hardinge 
 and Lord Dalhousie. I understand that latterly it has been very considerably 
 decreased indeed by the judicious arrangement of sending the treasure at the 
 periods when the regiments moved from station to station, making it more a 
 periodical thing than an accidental one. 
 
 1718. Sir J. Jl(i//r/.] Arc allowances made to the offic(>rs in India to encou- 
 rage the study of the native languages on their part ? — Yes. 
 
 171Q. Are those allownnces given equally to officers of the Company's troops 
 and officers of the tiueen's troops r — I think not ; but I am not certain. 
 
 1720. Mr. HordiiigeJ] It has been stated that the horse artilleiy in India is 
 comparativel)' a useless arm ; you have already stated your opinion of its 
 efficiency ; will }ou state how efficient it was at the battle of Guzerat r — 1 found 
 them efficient upon every occasion ; there was a greater body of artillery brought 
 into action at (iuzerat, because the country permitted it, but both at Guzerat, 
 and in every action in which I have been engaged, the artillery have always 
 done their duty most efficiently, and most nobly, particularly at Guzerat, where 
 there wen; opportunities of bringing artillery to a very great amount into 
 action ; I think I had 84 guns in the field in action w ith the enemy. 
 
 1721. Did not the horse artillery enable Sir Walter Gilbert to overtake the 
 enemy, and to prevent the bridge being broken down at Attock ? — Yes ; Sir 
 Walter Gilbert got up himself before the horse artilleiy or anything else, except 
 his staff and a very few men ; but the happy arrival of, I believe, two guns, or 
 some bod)^ of guns, enabled him to prevent the bridge from being burned. 
 
 1722. Your Loi'dship has spoken of tlie discipline of the native army in 
 India ; can you speak to its efficienc}^ mider fire ? — I had ever^^ reason to be 
 perfectly satisfied with the army of India. I have before mentioned, that some 
 regiments arc infinitely better than others ; that is mainly owing to the com- 
 manding officer, and the way in which they are handled, and very much depends 
 also upon the Queen's regiments of the line with which they are associated. 
 
 '7^3- 
 
 Did you not find that they Aied with the Europeans in distinguished 
 
 regnnents 
 
 acted as well as 
 in which I was 
 
 conduct at the battle of Sobraon ? — Several of the 
 
 men could act, not only at Sobraon, but in every action 
 
 engaged. 
 
 1724. Especially the Goorka regiments? — They are very fine indeed; they 
 are very gallant. 
 
 1725. Would you recommend that the regiments of the Bengal army should 
 be recruited for general service ? — If the system were adopted of recruiting 
 ever}- man for general service, of course I see no objection to it. It is a very 
 bad thing to be ol)liged to ask any man to go abroad as a matter of favour ; 
 but it has always been found, that when you call for volunteer corps, they are 
 always ready to come forward. In both the China wars there were regiments 
 of volunteers called for, and the}' immediately came forward to the aniount that 
 the Government wished for. 
 
 172('. Your Lordship has sjjoken of the stud: what has been the result of 
 the introduction of the CJulf Arab, and New South Wales horses ? — Very ex- 
 traordinary advant-.ige ; and I should be very glad to see it greatly increased. 
 
 1727. The !>th Lanceis were mounted upon Gulf Arabs, were they not r — 
 Yes, I think so ; but the i)tli Lancers were a body of extraordinaril}- large 
 men ; when I took the connnand of the army I inspected them going up country, 
 and they certainly seemed to be too heavy for their horses. 
 
 1728. lias your Lordship seen the barracks of Mohamcer r — No, they were 
 not even commenced before I left India. 
 
 1729. Have not the barracks of Dugshci answered perfectly? — I under- 
 stand so ; they were not finished when 1 K-ft the country. 
 
 1730. Viscount Jocchjn.'] Has your Lordship had any Goorkas under your 
 command? — Yes. 
 
 1731. ^^■hat do you think of them'.' — I considered them the most gallant 
 body of little lighters that I ever met with. 
 
 1732. It has l)een stated by a general officer in another i)lace that he should 
 recommend an increase of tlie Goorka force ; do you agree in that opinion.-- — 
 I was alwa}s very anxious for it, and I have no doubt that you woidd have a 
 very gi-catly improved army if you liad a greater numlK-r of (ioorkas, at the 
 rateof p.iv that we uive our sepovs. The Goorkas in our service, when I held 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 121 
 
 the command, got a smaller rate of pay ; many of the Goorka soldiers arc 
 stationed on the hills, and the eonsecjnenee is that they have not tlie expense 
 of niovina: about as other regiments have. 
 
 1733. Sir J. Ho(jff.'\ Are you aware that the Goorkas and the other sepoys 
 now get the same rate of pay? — No, I am not awan' of it ; 1 earnestly advo- 
 cated it during the whole of the time that I was in India. 
 
 1734. Viscount J^orr/;/?^.] Do not the Goorkas find their own arms.- — No, 
 they do not. 
 
 173.";. ^Vhat, in your opinion, is the effect of the withdrawal of a nundier of 
 officers from their regiments u])on the diseii)line of those regiments r — 1 stated 
 before that it is excessively i)rejudieial, but it cannot be avoided ; vou must 
 do it ; and therefore 1 strongly advocate an increase of the officers of the 
 native ai'my. 
 
 1736. Is there any limit to the number of officers that can be so withdrawn ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1 737. Is that number exceeded ? — Yes ; I before stated in some particular 
 instances. 
 
 1738. Mr. Elliot. ~\ Am I rightly informed in saying that at Guzerat an 
 officer connnanding a horse artillery battery found himself opposed to a heavy 
 battery of the enemy, at a distance from wliich be was likely to suffer, and that 
 he immediately put his horses to his guns and galloped them up to within his 
 guns' range of the battery, and drove the enemy from their guns r — I cannot 
 exactly speak as to individual conduct, but I know that at Sobraon an officer 
 of the horse artiller}' brought his guns, which were six-pounders, within 500 
 paces of a very heavy battery of guns, 18 -pounders ; and I now recollect 
 having heard that there was a similar case at Guzerat. I have no hesitation 
 in saying that the officers of the horse artillery in Bengal are ready and willing 
 to bring their guns always to Avithin effective range of their enemv. 
 
 1739. Could such a service liave been performed with foot artillery, or with 
 guns drawn by bullocks ? — Certainly not. But 1 beg to say that tbere is only 
 one field battery now with bullocks. Of course with bullocks you could not 
 get them uj) to the enemy's battery, nor could the foot artillery have done it 
 witli their nine-pounders and their limited number of horses ; they would have 
 suffered very materially before they came within this range. 
 
 1 740. Could such a service have been performed if the horse artillery had not 
 been there to do it r — No : however, I should be very glad to see the light field 
 batteries increased as to the number of horses ; but they are a m.ost eftective 
 arm. I would strongly recommend nine-pounders in pi'cference to six pounders, 
 in a much greater proportion than at present. I have always advocated that in 
 the horse artillery. 
 
 1741. Could a well-horsed foot battery have performed a service such 
 as that which has been described as having been performed at Guzerat r 
 — The number of horses to a foot battery is not ecjual to that of the horse 
 artillery. The one has 130 horses, the other has 169, whilst the former has a 
 greater weight of metal to draw. I have no doid^t that in instances, when the 
 ground is suitable, a light-horse field battery would have come within 500 i)aces 
 of the enemy's entrenchments. 
 
 Iti^'lit Hon. 
 
 Viftcouiit Gough, 
 
 r.. c. 11 
 
 14 Marcli 1853. 
 
 Colonel Patrick Grant, c.B., Aide-de-Camp to the Ciueen, called in; and 
 
 Examined. 
 
 1742. Chairman.'] HOW long have you been in India? — Upwards of 32 
 years. 
 
 1743. Will yon give the Committee a short outline of your services in India? 
 — I arrived in India in January 1821. I was adjutant of my regiment six years. 
 I have served as a brigade major, and acted as assistant adjutant-general of 
 division. I commanded a corps composed of the light comjianies of several 
 regiments, and T raised from the foundation and commanded a battalion of 
 light infantry. I served at Gwalior as dejjuty adjutant-general, and in the 
 Sutlej and Punjaub campaigns and in the expc(htion to Kahat as adjutant- 
 general of the army. 1 was adjutant-general of the army the last five vears I 
 was in India. 
 
 1744. From the length of your service you have had many opportunities of 
 judging of the general services, of the character and conduct of the Indian army ; 
 
 0.10. Q. do 
 
 Colonel 
 
 Patrick Grant.
 
 122 
 
 MINUTES OF EAIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel 
 Patrick Grant. 
 
 14 March 1853. 
 
 do you concur in the opinion which has been expressed to the Committee as to 
 its general efficienc)' ? — 1 think that everj'thing depends, especially with native 
 regiments, upon the European coinmandins: officer. If a regiment iswellcom- 
 mand(.'d, it is efficient ; if it is badly commanded, it is inefficient. I look upon the 
 European officers as being the very life-blood of a native regiment. 
 
 1 74 "). Do you consider that there are a sufficient number of European officers 
 attached to the regiments when on service ? — I do not ; during the Punjaub 
 cam])aign, I cannot state positively, but my impression is that we had not one 
 European officer to each company. 
 
 I 746. Would not that be contrary to the regulations as to the number of 
 officers that must remain with the regiments? — If they are not there you cannot 
 get them ; so many arc wii;hdrawn from one cause and another. 
 
 2747. Will you state the regulatitms as to the number of European officers 
 that must be attached to a regiment ? — The whole establishment is one colonel, 
 one lieutenant-colonel, one major, six captains, ten lieutenants, and five ensigns. 
 
 1 74S. Of those, how many may be withdrawn ? — The number that may be 
 withdrawn are three captains and three subalterns ; but then some are absent 
 on sick leave, and some from other causes, so that the effect has been, as I have 
 stated, that there was not one European officer for each company. 
 
 1749. According to the regulations, how many European officers are there 
 to a companv : — There are six captains, ten lieutenants, and live ensigns for tea 
 companies ; deducting three captains and three subalterns on staff employ, and 
 the adjutant and the interpreter, and without taking into account absentees 
 on furlough, sick, and from other causes, 13 officers would remain for duty 
 with 10 companies. 
 
 17.50. Ai-e you aware of any instance of failure before the enemy on account 
 of the small number of European officers with the regiment r — I think that 
 everything depends upon the commanding officer; if a regiment is well com- 
 manded, it will never fail. 
 
 1751. Can you state any case in which a regiment was unfit for service on 
 account of the small number of Euroi)ean officers that were with it } — Not 
 absolutely unfit for service, but certainly not so efficient as if properly officered. 
 
 17.52. W ithout mentioning names, is there any case within your recoUectioa 
 that would illustrate your ojjinion r — I do not recollect any case of positive 
 failure of a native regiment ; I have seen natives behave as well as Europeans, 
 and I have seen Europeans behave as ill as natives. 
 
 17.53. Sir G. Grei/.'] You have observed a difference in the character of 
 different regiments ; do you attribute the superiority of one regiment to another 
 exclusively to the character of the coinmanchng officer, or to the fact of its 
 having had a full complement of European officers ? — I attribute it to the cha- 
 racter of the connnandiiig officer especially, and also to its having had a full 
 complement of Eurojiean officers ; I ascribe it to Ijotli causes combined, but 
 more i)articularly to the character of the commanding officer. 
 
 1 7.54. C/uiirtna/i.] Can you state the average number of European officers 
 which were attached to the native regiments iu the Punjaub war .' — I have 
 already said that there was not one European officer to each company. 
 
 17,5,5. Mr. Iiardin(/e.] Was that in the Sutlej or the Punjaub campaign.' — 
 In both campaigns. My impression is, that there was not upju the average 
 one European officer to a company present in action. 
 
 I7.5(j. is it, or is it not, usual upon those occasions to call officers who are 
 in ))olitical employments to rejoin their regiments r — It is. 
 
 1757. Were the officers upon that occasion called upon to rejoin their 
 regiments ? — I believe, in every instance where the Government could spare 
 their services for regimental duty, that they were called for; but some did not 
 arrive until the camjjaigns were nearly over, and many joined in an inefficient 
 state, from having to travel such long distances, without equipment or baggage. 
 
 17,5s. But the order was issued upon that occasion ? — The or.ler was issued, 
 and obeyed most jjromptly. 
 
 '7')!)- Chairman.] Is the discipline of the native army good, or do you con- 
 sider it deteriorated ? — I think it was deteriorated at one time. On the ab )lition 
 of corporal i)unishment I think the discipline of the native army deteriorated, 
 and it was recovered on corporal punishment i)eing restored. It is very seldom 
 necessary to have recourse to corporal punishment in a native regiment, l)ut it is 
 quite necessary that the men should know tliat it can be resorted to if required. 
 
 1760. Can
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEinilTORIES. 123 
 
 1760. Can you state when corporal punishment was abolished in the native Colonel 
 army, and when it was restored .' — It was abolished under the frovernment of i'atHck Grant. 
 
 Lord William iientinek, I think in 182/ or 1828, and it was restored under 
 
 the government of Lord Hardinge, with excelhuit effect in my opinion. ^'^ Marcli i8,-,3. 
 
 1761. Do you consider tlie otiieers commandinL? the native i-ej^iments to be 
 generally efficient for tlu'ir duties f - Some are, and some ai'e not, as in other 
 services. 
 
 i7{)2. Does the system of seniorit}' affect the discipline of the regiment ■ — 
 Certainly it does, inasnmch as, with very few exceptions, an officer is far ad- 
 vanced in years before he attains the rank which would entitle him to the com- 
 mand of a regiment. 
 
 1 7(i3. Is the rule of seniority always strictly followed out? — Always; it is 
 the constitution of the army ; it cannot be deviated from. 
 
 1764. If in consequence of age any commanding oHicer was totally unequal 
 to the service, has not the Commander-in-Chief the power of making a change, 
 or of withdrawing him fnmi the command? — I have never seen an officer with- 
 drawn from the command of a reuiment on account of age and infirmity, I 
 know one instance of a commanding oHicer having been reported by the in- 
 specting officer as unfit to exercise connnand, and he was recommended to apply 
 for transfer to the invalid establishment. He declined, and the case dropped. 
 1 have known two instan(H's of lieutenant-colonels having been suspended from 
 the performance of duty until the pleasure of the Court of Directors should be 
 known, but that was on account of misconduct ; the Court of Directors con- 
 firmed tlie recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief and of the Government, 
 and the officers were finally removed from the service. The Commander-in- 
 Chief is much guided by the confidential reports on regiments which are made 
 annually by officers commanding divisions. 
 
 176.). At what age does an officer generally obtain the command of a regi- 
 ment ? — He is considered a very fortunate man indeed who gets his lieutenant- 
 colonelcy in 30 years. 
 
 17(16. If from seniority an officer has a claim to the command of a regiment, 
 whether fit or unfit, do 1 rightly understand that the Commander-in-Chief must 
 promote him to it.' — He must be promoted ; but it rests with the Commander- 
 in-Chief to withhold a command of that sort from him or not ; but I have 
 never known that power exercised. 
 
 1 767. But the power exists r — The power exists. 
 
 i7t)8. You have spoken strongly as to the necessity of an increase of officers ; 
 are the objections to such an increase financial only ? — I imagine that the 
 objections are financial only ; it would involve a very great additional expense. 
 
 17(19. Has there not been an addition to the regiments ? — Yes; a captain 
 has been added. 
 
 1 770. Do you know how many captains were added to the service ? — One per 
 regiment throughout the armies of the three Presidencies. 
 
 1771. Do you know the expense which that addition has caused? — It would 
 be al)out 500 /. a year for each captain. I conclude that the expense would be 
 about from 80,000/. to 90,000/. a year. 
 
 1772. Are the officers from all the three Presidencies as equally as possible 
 applied to staff and detached emi)loyments I — There are officers of the Bombay 
 and Madras Presidencies serving in the irregular forces in Bengal. 
 
 1773. So that there are not in any one of the Presidencies any number of 
 officers that would be applicable now to relieve the others ? — I do not know 
 that the Madras or Bombay army can spare officers. If they can, it woulil 
 relieve the Bengal army to employ them. Many of them are employed with 
 the irregular forces in Bengal. 
 
 1774. Is there any difference in the discipline of the armies of the different 
 Presidencies ; do you consider the Bengal army inferior to that of Bom])ay .' — 
 I do not ; I consider the troops of the Bengal army to be superior to those of 
 the Bombay or Madras army, in physical strength. I have seen l)ut a small 
 portion of the Bombay army, only the division that was employed at (ioojrat. 
 and I am even less aquainted with the Madras army ; but certainly, in appear- 
 ance and in physical strength, the Bengal sepoy is much superior to the sepoy 
 of either of the other Presidencies. 
 
 1 775. Was there not a report that the Bengal army refused to serve in the 
 
 trenches at the siege of Moultan ': — Such a report was circulated, but I can 
 
 0.10. Q 2 prove
 
 ] 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel prove that it was totally unfounded. I can lay before the Committee a note from 
 
 Patrick Grant, the officer commanding the Bengal sappers and miners at Moultan, stating 
 
 most distinctly that the report was without foundation. 
 
 H March 1853. ,--f, Will' you be kind enough to read it to the Committee? — " Simlah, 
 
 23d May 1839. — .My dear Colonel Grant, — With reference to the notes you 
 have shown me regarding General Dundas's report to the Bombay (government 
 of the refusal or unwillingness of the Bengal sepoys to work in the trenches 
 at Moultiiu, and of their abusing the Bombay sepoys for so doing, 1 will say, as 
 one of the senior engineer officers at the siege, and the officer commanding the 
 Bengal sappers and miners, that I neither saw or heard anything of the kind ; 
 and nothing of the kind could well have taken place without its coming to my 
 kiuAvledge, for I was in the trenches 30 hours out of every 48, and receiving 
 reports every five or six hours when not in the trenches. The Bengal sepoys 
 never hesitated about taking up their tools, or whatever they were required to 
 carry, and proceeding to work ; and it is my impression that they did compara- 
 tively more work than the Bombay sepoys, simply owing, however, to their 
 superior i)h\sical strength, for no men could be more Avilling than the latter. 
 As for their abusing the Bombay sepoys, T utterly discredit it ; all came to work 
 in their turn, and tliey knew this so well, that the idea seems an absurdity to me. 
 On the contrary, I noticed during the siege that the habit of jeering my naen, 
 unhappily too common on the part of the sepoys of the line in cantonments, 
 was entirelv dropped, and a marked sympathy with and interest in their 
 exertions evinced on the part of the Bengal sepoys. The engineers of course 
 preferred European working parties at night, for many obvious reasons, and a 
 request was made (by ]M.ajor Scott, of the Bombay engineers) that the details 
 might be so arranged that the Europeans should come at night, and the natives 
 by da)-, so far as practicable : and 1 cannot but think it is some confused mis- 
 apprehension of this fact which has led General Dundas wrong in this matter. 
 There were of course marked differences in the sepoy working parties, both 
 Bengal and Bombay, almost everything depending upon the regimental officers 
 on duty : but no kind of hesitation or refusal to work, or to carry materials from 
 the engineer depot to the trenches, did I ever see or hear of." That is from 
 i\Iajor Siddons, of the i5engal engineers, who commanded the sappers and 
 miners at the siege of Moultan. 
 
 1777. Do you agree in the opinion which has been expressed to this Com- 
 mittee, that the recruiting is very easy, and that the service is very popular 
 with the native soldiers r — It is very popular, and the recruiting is very 
 easy. I never experienced the slightest difficulty in recruiting, and 1 never 
 heard of it existing from other commanding officers. 
 
 1778. Is the quality of the recruits good ? — I think they are just as good as 
 they ever were ; I have heard some of the very old officers say that the men 
 were inferior to what they h;id been in their time ; but from my own observa- 
 tion, 1 shouUl say that that impression is unfounded. 
 
 1779. Is there any system of balancing castes in the native regiments r-- 
 Yes, there is. 
 
 17 So. Do you give a prefei'ence to any particular caster— I think the 
 Rajpoots are the best Hindoo soldiers, and the Pathans the best among the 
 Mahomedans. 
 
 1 781. Are those high castes or low castes: — The Rajpoot is the soldier 
 tribe of India, he comes third; the four great ti'ibes are the Jirahmin, the 
 Chuttree, tlie Raj]K)ot. and the Soodr ; I consider the Rajpoots the best soldiers. 
 Of Mahomedans there are four tribes, the Syud, the Sheik, tlie -Mogul, and the 
 Pathan ; the Pathan is the soldier tri!)e amongst the ^Mahomedans. 
 
 i7<Sv',. You would give the ])refcrence to th.ose two tribes r — Yes, the Pathan 
 and the Rajpoot. 
 
 1783. You have heard the evidence whit;h Lord (Jough has given to the Com- 
 mittee with respect to the arms and e(iui))ments of the native troops; do you 
 concur in the opinions which he exjjiessed, or would you wish to add any 
 further observations .- — I think that now the arms and equipments are most 
 ( fficient, since the introduction of the nereussion arms ; the old flint musket was 
 in many instances bad and unserviceable ; but now, since the inlroduction of 
 the percussion musket, I think the army is well armed. 
 
 1784. Is the weight of the musket too great for the sepoy? — It might be 
 advantageously reduced, but 1 think the bore ought not to be touched ; 1 would 
 
 retain
 
 SELECT C:OM.MrnEK ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 12.5 
 
 retain the bore, as at present ; the weight might be reduced b)- taking off a Coloml 
 number of the brasses, whieli mostly are mere ornament, and by hglit(!ning Patrick druni. 
 tlie stock without weakening it. 
 
 I 785. Wliat would the weight of the musket be then ? — Probably nine or ten ^^ March 1853. 
 pounds ; I think that would not be too heavy. 
 
 i7(S(3. Not for tlu; Madras sepoy, who we understand is the smallest? — 
 The Madras sepoy is the smallest ; I think that any soldier can use a musket 
 weighing nine or ten pounds. 
 
 17S7. Do you consider that the Bengal system of regimental promotion 
 amongst the natives answers well - — I do. I know that it differs essentially 
 from the system pursued at Bondjay and Madras ; but I think that experience 
 lias proved that each system is best suited to its own President;}'. I do not 
 know how the Bengal system might answer at Bombay or Madras ; but I am 
 satistied that tin; Madras and Bombay system would not suit Bengal so well as 
 the existing system. The Madras and Bombay native eonnnissioned and non- 
 commissioned officers are much smarter looking than they are in Bengal ; l)ut 
 I think that in endurance, and in physical strength, the Bengal native soldier 
 is more than a match for his brother of the Bombay ami}'. In the rai)id advance 
 on Peshawur the Bombay division was stated to be in an e.\hausted state, and 
 unable to j)roeeed further without rest ; while a Bengal bi'igade, whose exertions 
 had been not less great, was able to continue its march. 1 have here Brigadier- 
 general Dundas's report of that cireumstaace, if the Committee wovdd like to hear 
 it. I mention that as a proof that the system of promotion by seniority that is 
 pursued in the Bengal arm}- does not deteriorate from the efficiency of regiments. 
 
 1788. Do you concur in the opinion that the system of invaliding and jien- 
 sioning the native soldiers contributes much to the popularity of the service ? 
 — Most decidedly. 
 
 1 789. Are the rules strictly adhered to upon that subject ? — I think they are. 
 I know that in some instances gross frauds have been practised upon the Govern- 
 ment by pensioners and their heirs ; but the pension paymasters have success- 
 fully exerted themselves to detect such frauds, and I believe they have been in 
 a great measure put a stop to. 
 
 1790. Do you consider that the officers in command of regiments have 
 sufficient discretionary power ? — I do. I think that if we could always insure 
 having none but sensible and judicious officers at the head of regiments, 
 their power might he advantageou>ly increased ; but I never found that my own 
 powers were not sufficient to enable me to maintain discipline in the regiment 
 which I commanded. 1 think the power is sufficient if judiciously exercised. 
 
 1791. Has the power of the conunanding officers of regiments been dimi- 
 nished of late years r — I do not think it has. It is under great restriction, 
 certainly ; but I think their powers are quite sufficient, if they know how to 
 exercise them. 
 
 1792. If you can favour the Committee with any suggestions or any remarks 
 with a view to the improvement of the service which would be useful, they 
 would be happy to hear them ; are there any prominent defects in the service 
 which you can point out ? — I think that the efficiency of the service would be 
 very much improved b}' those furlough advantages being granted which Lord 
 Ciiough has recommended. 
 
 1 793. You concur with Lord Gough upon that subject ? — I do, most entirely. 
 
 1794. Mr. Hardingc.'] Do you concur in Lord (Jough's opinion that the 
 army ought not to l)e reduced.- — Shortly before I resigned the apj)ointment 
 of adjutant-general, I had occasion to lay before Sir Charles Napier a return of 
 the duties performed by the Bengal army. At that time there was one-third 
 of the army constantly on duty. If those duties exist still to the same extent 
 as they did at that time, then I think the army cannot be reduced. But 
 I believe, that since the establishment of the very efficient police which has 
 been formed in the Punjaub, under a most able offict'r, Major Neville Cham- 
 berlain, the duties have been very greatly decreased ; and now, possibly, the 
 army might be reduced to the old establishment of eight comi)anies and 800 
 men per regiment. 
 
 1795. Are you aware that the military force of the native states is upwards 
 of .'JOOjUOO men ? — No, I am not. Returns of those forces were not sent to 
 the adjutant-general's office. 
 
 1796. Would you recommend that there should be more or fewer Brahmins 
 0.10. Q 3 recruited
 
 126 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel recruited in the native regiments ? — The proportion of Brahmins in the native 
 
 Patrick Grant, regiments is ver3' small. I do not think they are such good soldiers as the 
 
 Rajpoots: but there are instances of Ih-ahmius distinguishing themselves as much 
 
 14 March 1853. .^^ ^^^y i^\^^^ ; they are intriguing fellows, and therefore more difficult to manage, 
 hut good soldiers nevertheless. 
 
 1797. With regard to the deficiency of officers in the Bengal army, is that 
 to be attributed to the fact that the Bengal army has been more engaged in 
 warfare than either of the other two armies, and that it has consequently been 
 expedient and necessary to recognise the merits of the officers who have been 
 engaged in that warfare b)^ giving them staff and political employments ': — It 
 may be so ; and certainly every Government, and every Commander-in-Chief, 
 has been anxious to restrict the number of absentees as much as practicable. 
 
 I 798. Can you inform the Committee whether the offences for which for- 
 merly hard labour in irons was imposed, but which are now punished by 
 corporal punishment, liave increased or diminished ? — I think they have 
 decreased since the restoration of corporal punishment. 
 
 i79(). Sir G. Grey^ You have spoken of the comparative efficiency of 
 officers in command of regiments ; do you attribute the incompetency and 
 inefficiency of some officers to the length of time during which they have been 
 absent from their regiments, holding staff or political appointments, before they 
 obtained a rank which entitled them to command a regiment ? — I think that if 
 an officer ever has had it in him, he never loses capacity for command merely 
 from absence from regimental duty, however prolonged. 
 
 1800. How long have vou known officers absent from their regiment, and 
 then returning to the i-ej^iment with the rank of lieutenant-colonel, to take the 
 command of it r — I have known officers leave their regiments as subalterns, 
 and never return again till they were lieutenant-colonels. 
 
 iSoi. Do you think that that absence has interfered with their efficiency as 
 conmianding officers of the regiments r — I think that if a subaltern thoroughly 
 knows his duty, and takes an interest in it, even though he may be long absent, 
 he will be capable of commanding the regiment when he returns, if age and 
 infirmity have not impaired his energies. 
 
 i8o2- Mr. AJan^les.^ How long was Cieneral Gilbert absent from his regi- 
 ment ? — General Gilbert was with his regiment as a subaltern ; I do not 
 believe he ever joined his regiment with superior rank ; he held a command in 
 which the duties were of a mixed nature, political and military, llien he came 
 home, and returned to India after being 20 years and upwards in Europe ; and 
 he is now, 1 will venture to say, as efficient as any officer in any service in the 
 world. 
 
 1 803. Sir G. Grey.^ He returned with the rank of major-general : — He did. 
 
 1804. Mr. Mangles.'] Do you concur in the opinion which has been expressed, 
 that there might be usefully an alteration made in the equipment and dress 
 and arms of the regular cavalry ? — I do. In 1 S4 1 1 was emjjloyed under the 
 late Major-general Sir James Lundc}' in collecting information regarding the 
 organization, cqui])ments, and dress of the regular cavalry. A mass of valuable 
 inf()rination was collected, and a very full report was drawn up and submitted 
 to Government by the Connnander-in-Chief, l)ut the suggestions which were 
 made have not been carried into effect, except as regards the saddles, of which a 
 better description is gradually being introduced. 
 
 1805. Sir yi. //. Licilis.'] When you spoke of a possible reduction of the 
 army, do you wish the Conunittee to understand that you had reference to the 
 existing condition of India, or to any possible augmentation of the dominions ? 
 — I think that if the duties have been reduced, as I understand they have been, 
 the army might be reduced to 800 men per regiment, and those 800 men 
 might be formed into eight instead of ten companies. I would suggest, that 
 instead of emploj ing the regular troops on the north-west frontier, local regi*- 
 ments should l)e raised, composed of Goorkahs and men from that part of the 
 country. Five regiments, of the strength of SOO men each, would be numeri- 
 cally equal to four regiments of the line of the ])resent establishment ; and 
 being (lomjxjsed of liillmen, I think that, in a moimtainous country like the 
 north-west frontier, such corps would be more efficient than regiments ot the line, 
 consisting exclusively of men from the plains ; and there would be a saving 
 of exjjense, as these corps would not, 1 conclude, Ije allowed the trans-Indus 
 batta. 
 
 180G. The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUTTORIES. 127 
 
 iSo(). 'I'lic (HK'^tion last addressed to you had reference rather to the annexa- Colonel 
 
 tion of dominions ; could th;:t probably be effected coineidcntly with finy Pnirirk Gmnt. 
 
 X'eduetion of the anny r- My answer had reference to the existinji; condition of 
 
 India ; l)ut any fresh annexation might be provided for, as ref^ards the n'2;ular ^^ March 1853. 
 native infantry and cavalry, in the same way. The fjreat difficulty would be 
 how to procure couipetent European officers, without still furtlier injury to the 
 efficiency of i-egiments of the line. 
 
 1807. Mr. V. Suiit/i.'\ In speaking, in an earlier part of your examination, of 
 promotion bv seni()rit\-, von mentioned a case in which General Najiicr inti- 
 mated to an otlicer that hv had better withdraw from the connnand, and th;it 
 he refused to do so ; can you state to the Committee whether any evil occurred 
 from his so continuing? — None that I am aware of; he continued in the com- 
 mand of the regiment for a very short time afterwards, and has now got his 
 off-reckonings, and come home. 
 
 1808. Can vou suggest any remedv for the evils arising fi'om ))romotion by 
 seniority ? — With the present constitution of the army 1 do not think it is 
 possible to correct it. 
 
 1 8o(). Do you think that the constitution of the army could be so altered as 
 to corn'ct it r — No. 
 
 1810. Mr. Hardim/e-l Have there not been instances in which officers have 
 been ))assed over for brigade commands, and on account of age and infirmity? 
 — Yes; I have known several instances in which they have been passed over. 
 
 18] I. Viscount ./oce/y«.] Is there not, in some of the regiments, a regular 
 system of purchasing out senior officers ? — There is. 
 
 1812. M hat has been the effect of the system ? — I think it has been very 
 good. 
 
 1813. When was it introduced? — It was first recognised by the Government 
 about 14 or 15 years ago. 
 
 1814. W'ill you explain how they arrange it among themselves; is it done 
 in the same way as in the Queen's service? — I think not; ilifferent regiments 
 have different ways of doing it, but generally a scale is drawn up by some 
 officer who is thought competent to do it, or by an actuary. 
 
 1815. What do you think has been the effect of that system upon the service ? 
 — Younger men have been promoted in consequence ; 1 know many instances ; 
 •I got my own promotion in that way ; I paid 2,200/. for the step, otherwise 
 I should have attained my regimental majority only 18 months ago, instead of 
 which I have been a regimental lieutenant-colonel for that period. 
 
 1816. You do not think any evil has come of the system r — I think not ; on 
 the contrary, I think good has arisen from it. 
 
 1817. In speaking of the efhcienc}' of the two branches of the service, which 
 do you consider the most efficient, the irregular cavalry or the regular cavalry? 
 — I think the irregular cavalry the most efficient ; the officers are all selected 
 men. 
 
 1818. How are they selected? — By the Commander-in-Chief, who selects in 
 every instance the best man that can be found for the command of an irregular 
 regiment ; the European officers are selected men. 
 
 1819. What is the general average age of the officers commanding the irre- 
 gular corps? — From 30 to 40, perhaps; very frequently younger. There are 
 subalterns commanding irregular corps. 
 
 1820. Mr. V. Smith.] When you say that the Commander-in-Chief 
 always selects tlie best men that can be obtained for those situations, is that 
 the general opinion of the, service, or has there been any dissatisfaction with 
 the selections that have been made? — No doubt there are grumblers, who think 
 they have been passed over, and that inferior men to themselves have been 
 selected; but I am satisfied that the Commanders-in-Chief and Governors- 
 General have wished to distribute tin ir patronage with reference to the etliciency 
 and benefit of the service, and not from private considerations. 
 
 1821. Viscount Jocdyn.] May not the taking the best men for those irregular 
 corps have tended to lower the character of tlie officers of the regular corps r 
 — Yes ; the elite have been taken for the irregular corps, and other staff 
 apj)ointments. 
 
 1822. Mr. Lahouchere.] What is the average age of the commanders of irre- 
 gular corps ? —The average age of lieutenant-colonels commaniling regular 
 
 0.10. Q 4 corps.
 
 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel corps, to which I unclerstand the question to refer, cannot, I think, be under 
 
 Talrick Grant. from 50 to GO years. 
 
 1S23. Sir T. If. Madclork.] How long is it since the Commander-in-Chief 
 
 14 Maich 1853. ^.,jg entrusted with the selection of offic(>rs for the irregular corps ? — The Com- 
 mander-in-Chief always recommenderl to the Governor-general to appoint, but 
 in Lord liardinge's time the whole patronage of the irregular corps was given 
 over to the Commander-in-Chief. 
 
 1824. You have mentioned the name of a most distinguished officer, Sir 
 M'alter Gilbert, and }ou stated that he was probably 20 years in England before 
 he l)ecame major-general and returned to India, and that he subsequently per- 
 formed most distinguished services. Do you think it desirable that officers 
 who have continued 15 or 20 years in England should return to such com- 
 mands and be put upon the general staff of the army ? — I think that is an in- 
 stance in which it has answered extremely well. 
 
 1825. But as a general ])ractice do you think it desirable r— No, I do not. 
 
 1826. Can you suggest any mode of providing for that class of officers ? — All 
 those Avho have served their tour upon the divisional staff might be provided 
 for by re-establishing the retired list ; it would give present and prospective 
 promotion, to the great benefit of the service certainl}', but the expense would 
 be great. Lord Hardinge directed Colonel Stuart, the secretary to Government 
 in the militarv department, to ascertain what the expense would be of re-esta- 
 blishing the retired list, and he computed that it would cost tlie Government 
 40,000 /. a year ; but certainly, if it were re-established, I should thhik it would 
 tend greatly to the efficiency of the army. 
 
 1 8:^7. It is only a question of expense r — Yes. 
 
 1828. If such a measure were adopted, do you think that the effect of it would 
 be. that officers commandijig divisions and officers commanding brigades would 
 be 10 years younger than they now are upon the average .' — -I think it might 
 be so. 
 
 1829. To the great advantage of the service r — Certainly, inasmuch as )-ou 
 would have younger and more efficient men. Few men are as efficient at 
 (30 or 70 as they are at 40 or 50. I am myself, I think, the youngest man in 
 the Bengal army of the rank of colonel ; but even in my own instance I dare 
 not expect that my energies will not be materially imi)aired by the time 
 I succeed to the command of a division, which I have no liojje of attaining in 
 less than 1 5 years to come. 
 
 1 8;]o. Mr. IJinuc] You have stated that the conduct of the native corps 
 depends much upon the character of the connnanding officer ; do you not con- 
 sider it a great advantage for the Commander-in-Chief and the Government to 
 be able to avail themselves of the services of any officer they may select for any 
 corps, on account of his ))eculiar qualifications r — Yes. 
 
 18;', 1. Mas any mode occurred to you i)y which the regular corps, which 
 have liitherto on service been short of officers, might liave their number of offi- 
 cers kept up, and at the same time the Government might still have the advan- 
 tage of selecting officers for the irregular cor))s r — .A large increase to the 
 establishment of European officers would meet the case. 
 
 1832. Has it ever occurred to vou that the object might be gained by the 
 formation of a staff corjjs ? — I have often heard the subject of forming a staff 
 corjjs discussed, but I think there are very great difficulties in the way. 
 
 1833. Does any mode occur to you by which the present system could be 
 improved ? — By increasing tlie estal)lishment of officers. 
 
 1834. Might not iui increased number of officers for the native regular corps 
 provide for the case ? —Certainly. 
 
 183/5. Are vou of opinion that the ])ower of selecting military officers for 
 civil appointments ouglit to be continued '.—I think they have done their duty 
 so efficiently that it is desirable that it should be continued ; it is a very great 
 inducement to officers to do their duty, and to distinguish themselves. 
 
 1 83(). From the experience you have had as adjutant-general, you can state 
 whetlier one of the peculiar (puilifications for those appointments is not a 
 knowledge (jf the languages, and l)eing aljle to comnHuiicate with the natives .' 
 — No officer (;an hold a staff appointment till he has passed the prescribed 
 examination in ilindostanee, and done four years' regimental duty- 
 
 1837. Do not you consider that rule a great improvement in the service ? — 
 Decidedly. 
 
 1838. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 129 
 
 iX3<S. Arc you of opiiiidu that any benefit uould arise from inducemeiits 
 being lield o;it to officers in tlic Queen's corps to acquire a knowledge of the 
 native languages, in the same way as is done with respect to the Conipanv's 
 officers '! — No doubt advantage would aceru(! to thi! Uueen's officers from Ijeing 
 so employed. 1 have known a Queen's officer to hold a i)olitical ajjpointment. 
 I recollect a Queen's officer holding a political a])pointnient in Rajpootana. 
 
 iS;]i). You think that there would be no unwillingness on the part of the 
 Government, if power were granted to make selections from either service, 
 according to their fitness ? — 1 am not ))rei)ared to say that ; the Government 
 have been very jealous of anything of the sort. .1 think that jjroportionably 
 with the number of regiments of each army. Queen's and Company's, in India, 
 Her Majesty's officers have a fair share of the staff appointments in India. 
 Queen's officers arc constantly employed as Persian interpreters to the Com- 
 mander-in-Chief. Lord Cough's Persian interpreter was a Queen's officer ; Sir 
 William Comm's Persian interpreter was a Queen's officer; Lord Hastings's 
 Persian interpreter was a Queen's officer ; and there is a numci'ous general staff 
 composed exclusively of officers of Her Majesty's service. 
 
 1 S40. You mentioned that considerable benefit has arisen from transferring 
 certain duties, lieretofore performed by the native corps, to the police. Looking 
 to your statements that one-third of the native corps are employed on civil 
 duties, will } ou state whether there are any other duties connected ■.vith the 
 civil department which you think might be transferred to the police, in order to 
 reheve the native corps r — There are other duties, such as treasure parties, 
 and escorts of various kinds. 
 
 1841. If railways were established in India, would it not save the troops 
 greatly in resjject of fatigue ? — I think it would be a very great saving, and 
 1 should think it would enable the Government to reduce the strength of the 
 army very ceusiderably. 
 
 1842. Would it not enable the Government to keep the European troops in 
 health at the hill stations, by having the means of transporting them on emer- 
 gency from one end of the country to the other ? — Yes ; sickness at the hill 
 stations is exacth' one-half what it is at the stations on the plains, according to 
 the report of a medical committee upon the subject. 
 
 i8.)3. Are you of opinion that nothing could tend more 10 render the army 
 efficient than the establishment of railways speedily to different parts of the 
 country 1 — 1 think it would conduce very much to the efficiency of the army. 
 
 1 844. Mr. Cobden.] In looking at the relation which exists at present between 
 the European officers and the sepoy troo])S under them, is it your opinion tliat 
 the confidence and attachment between the two classes is greater or less now 
 as compared with that which existed in former times under the old officers ? — 
 I think it is less now than it was when I entered the service ; that there is less 
 intercourse between the officers and the men than there was. 
 
 15^4.5. Can you account for that? — I cannot. 
 
 1846. Do the officers go out with greater pride and hautenr of character, and 
 treat the men with more contemijt than used to be the case 1 — I cannot account 
 for it, but 1 think it is the case. 
 
 1847. It arises of course from the conduct of the officers ; if the officer 
 desired to attach the sepoy to him he could do so ? — Yes. 
 
 1848. The blame, if tliere is blame anywhere, must have been with the 
 European ? — I think so ; I think it arises sometimes from so few of the senior 
 officers being present with regiments. 
 
 1849. Mr. Hume.] Do not the European officers now more generally acquire 
 the native languages than they did? — Great inducements have been held out 
 by the Government to officers to study the languages ; they cannot hold staff 
 appointments till they acquire a competent knowledge of them. An otlicer 
 who passes the higher examination receives a donation of 1 ,()()() rupees, and 
 500 rupees for passing the inferior examination, qualifying for staff employ. 
 
 1850. Was it not expected that a superior knowledge of the native languages 
 on the part of the officers would tend to increase the intercourse between the 
 officers and the native soldiers ? — I think it will have that effect in time. 
 
 ] 851. Can you suggest any mode by which that result could be promoted ? — 
 
 I think it would be promoted by retaining officers more with their regiments ; 
 
 0.10. II the 
 
 Colonel 
 Patrick Grant. 
 
 14 Murcli 1853. 
 
 //
 
 130 -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Colonel the longer the men and the officers are together the hetter they hke one another, 
 
 Pairkk Grant, and the more they associate. 
 
 J .March i8-q '^'^5-- Mr. Lahoucherc.'] Are the habits of the Enghsh officers in India more 
 
 domestic tlian they used to be. Do tliey live more with their famiHes, and 
 are they more often married men? — Certainly; marriage has much increased 
 among them. 
 
 1 Sfi^. Do vou think that that may have had anything to do vith causing them 
 to have less intercourse with the native soldier r— I tliink it may perhaps have 
 had some effect. 
 
 1854. Mr. IIu77ie.] Are there any messes in the native corps now ? — I under- 
 stand that since I left India messes are now compulsory in native corps. I 
 speak merelv from hearsay. It was not the case when I left India. 
 
 1 85,5. Can vou suggest any mode by which that intercourse, which ought to 
 exist between the European officers of the native corps and the men, could be 
 promoted ? — I think the only way is to keep the officers more with their regi- 
 ments. I have already stated that the more they are together the better they 
 know one another, and the better they like one another. 
 
 1 856. Mr. Cobden.] Do you think there is any difference in this respect be- 
 tween a state of war and a time of peace ? — Certainly. In a time of war the 
 officers and men are thrown together, and they learn to associate and to know 
 one another. 
 
 1857. In a time of peace there woidd l)e rather a tendency to distance and 
 alienation ? — Yes. 
 
 1S56. ChairmanJ] Is the same inducement held out to officers of the Royal 
 army as to officers in the native army to acquire the native languages ? — 
 The)'' each receive the same donation for passing an examination in the native 
 languages. 
 
 'fe^ 
 
 Frederick James Halliday, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 F.J.Halliday Esq 1^59- ^I^'- ManfflesJ] IT appears from wliat you have stated that a consider- 
 able part of the duties of the European judge of thezillah are those of super- 
 intendence and control ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 1 860. And the tendency of the system pursued l)y the Government has been, 
 of late years, to discourage primary jurisihction on the p irt of the European 
 judges, and to confine them as much as possible to superintendence and con- 
 trol, and the hearing of appeals, in order to make the appellate jurisdiction 
 prompt and close behind the native judges ?— No doubt that has been the ten- 
 der cv for some years past, but latterly an idea has arisen that it has beea 
 carried a little too far ; namely, that the English judges are left now without any 
 opportunity of practising themselves in liearing jirimary cases. It is one of 
 the difficulties of the system now, perhaps, to be improved, that the European 
 judges are placed upon the Bench, in the Court of Appeal, n'ithout sufficient 
 judicial training ; the absence of any op])ortunity of practice in hearing cases in 
 the first instance has been now supposed to act prejudicial! v. 
 
 I 86i. Much stress has been laid upon the importance, alleged by some, of con- 
 fining the judicial servants entirely to the judicial department ; do 30U think 
 that practicable or desirable?— I do not think it eitluT practicable or desirable. 
 
 i86j Will you state your reasons for that opinion ? —Perhaps the most 
 useful knowledge, and tliat which ([uaHfies a man best for the exercise of the 
 judicial function in India, is, after all, a thorough acquaintance with the natives, 
 with their languages, with their modes and habits of business, and their dis- 
 putes and differences al'owt land, and arising out of land. That knowledge is 
 (jnly, as far as I know, to be derived from experience in the revenue department ; 
 and when a man has that, and has besides that amount of experience in quasi 
 jiulicial matters which lie also acquires in the (Mllec-tor's offline, where a great 
 deal of y«</ A/ judicial busine-s is done, he has a great deal, perlia])s, of what is 
 necessary to qualify a mau to be a good judge in India. 
 
 i8i!3. It has been assumcid that the duties of a collector in India are purely 
 fiscal : will you state to the Comuiittee what amount of judicial, or what you 
 have just expressed as qtiasi judicial, business is performed by a coUec;tor in 
 
 India r —
 
 SELECT COMMiriEE ON INDIAN TKRRITORIES. 131 
 
 ludiii : — I think the greatei- part of a collector's duties in India are (juasi F. J. HaUiilay,^i\. 
 
 judicial ; the fiscal ])art of ;i collector's business is transacted chiefly by deputy, 
 
 he of course being responsible for the result : there are disputes and (juestions 14 Marcli 1853, 
 about responsibilities for payment, about claims for excess of deposits and 
 matters of that kind, about rents and matters arising out of the relations between 
 landlord and tenant, about boundar}- dis])utes arising in course of settlement, 
 also very often about what are called resumi)tion cases ; and there may be other 
 things that 1 do not at ])resent recolhjct ; all the most important jxirt of a col- 
 lector's duty arc i/^/i/.v/ judicial ; as regards resumptions, they are in all respects 
 judicial. 
 
 1804. Sunniiary suits? — Also summary suits ; when I say ''quasi judici.al," 
 1 should exi)lain tliat 1 mean judicial business performed in a summary method; 
 it is, in fact, judicial business ; but it is done with less attention to form than in 
 the regular civil courts. 
 
 186.5. In your previous evidence you have expressed an opinion that the 
 best system, and the one most consonant with the feelings and habits of 
 the people of India, is, that all judicial business should be done in a summary 
 wav .' — As much so as the business admits of, no doubt. 
 
 1866. Mr. Hardi)ige."\ Will you explain the administration of the law in our 
 non-regulation provinces :-— The administration of the law in the non-regulation 
 provinces, as far as I am acquainted with it, differs, i think, in them all; ihere 
 are scared}^ any of them that are quite the same. Generally speaking, they are 
 supposed to conform as nearly as possible to what they call the spirit of the 
 regulations and laws of the regulation provinces, having discretion to depart 
 from them when it may seem to them absolutely necessary. xAs to the pro- 
 cedure in some of the non-regulation provinces, there exists a set form of 
 procedure laid down by rule perhaps in all, but it is less in detail in some than 
 in others. To answer the question properly, I should go through the non- 
 regulation provinces as far as I know them. 
 
 1867. Can you state how the law is administered in Assam and Tenasserim ? 
 — In Assam a very stringent method of procedure, corresponding to that of the 
 regulation provinces, was laid down for the guidance of the judicial officers, 
 and they follow that, adhering also to the spirit of the regulations in all cases 
 where they think it aijplicable, and the tendency is to introduce it and adhere to it 
 in all cases ; they have native subordinate courts, and Europeans overruling the 
 courts, much upon the same principle as they have in the regulation provinces. 
 On the whole, in Assam the endeavour has been to assimilate themselves as 
 far as they can to the system in force in the regulation provinces. In the 
 Tenasserim provinces the system is different in some respects ; they have a 
 mucli looser code of procedure, and in that respect they have very much 
 created one for themselves, and they do so as they go along ; they administer 
 the Burmese law in cases to which it is applicable, and in other cases natural 
 equity, such as the case may seem to require. They have English universally 
 as the language of the record, which is not the case in Assam, nor, as far as 
 I know, in any other of the regulation or the non-regulation provinces ; and 
 they use in criminal cases, very successful!}^, and in a manner which 1 think 
 might iie made a model of in other parts of our territory, the institution of 
 juries. 
 
 1 868. Will you state who exercise those functions ; how many officers are 
 there in each province? — The following are the judicial officers in the Tenasserim 
 pi'ovinces : the head of all is the commissioner, who acts as a court of appeal in 
 civil and criminal cases for all the courts under him, and also as a sessions 
 court to trv heinous cases sent up by the magisti'ates. Under him there are 
 European officers, called principal assistants ; one of these is stationed in each 
 division of the Tenasserim provinces ; he has powers as a civil judge, very 
 much resembling in extent those of the civil judges of the regulation provinces, 
 and on the criminal side he is a magistrate ; he is also the collector, all 
 functions being joined in one hand there ; he has one or more assistants, called 
 junior assistants, according to the exigency of the business in the province, to 
 whom subordinate civil and criminal duties are entrusted, subject to a reference 
 and appeal to the principal assistant. There is also a native judge, a Burmese, 
 called a " tseetkai." 
 
 i8by. What salary does the native judge receive - — I think the native judge 
 0.10. -R 2 of
 
 132 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDE^'CE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 c. J.//a//iV%, Esq. of the Tenasserim provinces has not more than 100 rupees a month. The 
 
 tseetkai has a jurisdiction in civil and criminal matters to some extent below 
 
 54 March 1853. x.hiit of the junior assistant, and subject in like manner to an appeal to ihe prin- 
 cipal assihtiuit, all being under the control of the connnissioner. 
 
 1870. What other natives are employed in the judicial establishment besides 
 this native judge? — I know of no other natives in the Tenasserim provinces 
 employed in anv respect in the administration of justice, except the village 
 officer, who answers completely to our police daroga, who is called a Goung- 
 gyoup, who is placed in the interior, and who has the control of the police ; he 
 has cases reported to hiui, and he reports to the magistrate, and sends up the 
 criminals and the witnesses. Any other officers employed are merely minis- 
 terial officers, of whom they employ very few, the system having this great 
 distinction from the system which prevails in the regulation provinces (owing, 
 no doubt, to their having much less to do), that the judges can all of them 
 perform in a great degree their own work, and are very little subject to the 
 operations or influences of the native ministerial officers. 
 
 1871. Mr. Hume.'] You have said that the juries, upon the whole, work well. 
 Of what number do the juries consist in those cases, and of what class are the 
 jurymen ? — A list is made by the princij)al assistant in each division, which is 
 revised by the commissioner, of persons qualifted to serve as jurymen in the 
 jirovince, the list contains chiefl\' the names of natives, but there are a few 
 iuu'opeans and quasi Europeans upon it, especially in Mouhnein itself, which 
 is the hciid-quarters of the province. From those lists persons are summoned 
 from week to week to attend at the head-quarters, where the sessions judge, 
 that is, the commissioner, is sitting. He empannels a jury of, I think, three or 
 five, and tries, with their assistance, all criminal cases which come before him, 
 they being all of a somewhat heinous character. Juries are not used by the 
 lower tribunals. 
 
 1872. Wiien you say persons qualified, will j^ou state what is the qualifica- 
 tion ? — A wide discretion in that respect is left in the hands of the principal 
 assistant to the commissioner, and the commissioner himself ; you may say 
 that they have the actual nomination of the jury lists: and they exercise their 
 discretion as to the persons whom they think fit to put upon them. Practically 
 I have reason to think that the actual weight of llie burden falls cliiefly upon 
 those who reside in, or for the time-being come for their business into, the chief 
 town in which the sessions are held. 
 
 1 87.]. Are juries only used at those sessions ? — Only at those sessions. 
 
 1S74. Mr. TIar(li/)gc.] Then the Punchayct system is not existing in those 
 provinces ? — No. 
 
 187.'',. C/udriiinti.] Must the jurors all be agreed ? — No: nor is their verdict 
 potential ; that is to say, the judge may set it aside. 
 
 1 87('). Sir (7. Grri/.] And .snlistitute another verdict for it, or grant a new 
 trial:— And substitute another verdict for it. 
 
 1S77. Mr. I.dLoucherc.'] Do you know whether that is often done ? — I do not 
 know. 1 should sav, speaking of these juries, that an ord(!r of the Government 
 to attem])t the administration of criminal justice in heinous casev, in the 
 T( nasserim province s, by uieans of jurie«, aec'ording to this plan, was issued 
 manv years ago, durinu Lord Aueklands administration. The officer in charge 
 of the province at that time, and for many years afterwards, had great doubts 
 of the ])r()prietv of using juries, and he took upon himself not to carry the 
 (Jovernmcnt order into effect. Mis omitting to do this was not known to the 
 (•overnmcnt, the control over those provinces in those days being more lax than 
 it has !)(■( n sim'i-. Hut within the last five years an officer was sent there to take 
 charge of tlie province, Mr. Colvin, who, finding this rule for the use of juries 
 stanfling on his books, and not knowing why an attempt should not be made to 
 carrv it into execution, ])ut it in force, omitting one part of the rule, which was, 
 that the jurors should lie ))iiid for tluir scr\i(H's. iiv told me himself, and the 
 inform.'ititm was corrol)orated by his successor, the ])resent commissioner of the 
 proviruus, that it had worked extremely well ; that the juries weie of great 
 use to liim, both in suggesting lines of examination and methods of investiga- 
 tion, and generally by the equity and justice of their verdicts, and that the 
 peojilv- showrd no disincliuation whatever to serve tq)on them ; that he believed 
 
 the
 
 SELI'CT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 133 
 
 the people were getting gradually accustomed to thcin, and that it was bcconi- F.J.HalUday,Z->q. 
 ing popular amongst them ; in short, that the experiment had been completely ■ '■ — 
 
 successful. 14 Maich lSj3. 
 
 187S. Mr. IFardinge.] Does the system in the other regulation provinces 
 under the Government of Bengal, differ material!}' from what yon have now been 
 describing? — It differs, no doubt. In the first ])lace, they have no juries, 
 though, under their discretion of using the regulations as far as they please, 
 they have a right to use juries, accorcUng to Regulation VI. of 1830, which 
 gives pov.-er for the employment of juries in the regulation provinces ; l)ut it 
 is very seldom used. I am speaking now of Assam. In that and some other 
 non-regulation provinc-es with which I am acquainted, they make their system 
 correspond, in my opinion, too closely to the more formal system of theregu- 
 lation provinces ; they use too much writing and record, their proceedings are 
 too exact and formal, ami they have a necessity for the employment of too many 
 ministerial officers. In s])eaking, however, of the employment of juries in the 
 non-regulation provinces, 1 am botuid to say that I have onh' lately been made 
 aware, by a very distinguished officer, (Colonel Wilkinson, since resident at 
 NaSpore), who had the control of the administration of justice in the south- 
 western frontier districts, that he never tried a case, sitting as a judge, with- 
 out the use of juries, constituted and empowered very much as I have described 
 the juries in the Tenasserira provinces to be constituted and empowered, and 
 that he always derived the greatest assistance from them in every respect, if 
 they were carefully chosen, the choice resting always with himself; and that 
 he would on no account have desired to administer justice without their as- 
 sistance. 
 
 1879. ^^^'^ the judicial establishments the same in all the Bengal non-regula- 
 tion jjrovinces r — They are the same, with some slight exceptions. In the south- 
 western provinces the judicial establishments are very sinnlar to those of 
 Assam, and both are similar to the establishments in the regulation provinces ; 
 in both they have moonsiffs, and sudder amins, and principal sudder amins, and 
 judges. 
 
 1880. Can you recollect what salaries the moonsiffs, the sudder amins, and 
 the principal sudder amins, in those jirovinces, receive ?— My impression is, that 
 they receive the same salaries as in the regidation provinces. 
 
 i88i. Viscount Jocclj/fi.] Do you think that the salaries are sufficient to 
 secure proper men ? — I have ah'eady said that I do not think the salaries 
 sufficient, speaking of the salaries in the regulation provinces. 
 
 1 882. Sir (r. Grei/.] Does the criminal jurisdiction of which you have spoken 
 in those non-regulation provinces extend to Eurojjeans ? — No, but I should say 
 that that is a difficult legal point, into which I am not comjietent to enter. 
 
 I 883. But practically do you know whethei- Europeans charged with offences 
 in those non-regulation provinces are amenable only to the Supreme Court of 
 Calcutta? — Practically they are amenable only to the Supreme Court. There 
 may be legal doubts whether in some of the provinces, especially those acquired 
 since the last (Jharter, Europeans are not as much subject to the tribunals as 
 any other inhabitants ; but it is a (juestion depending upon veiy nice legal 
 argument. 
 
 1S84. Are the juries of which you have spoken made use of in civil as well 
 as in criminal cases ? — In Tenasserim they are not made use of in c-ivil 
 cases. 
 
 1885. Mr. 31a )ir/k.s.'] Do you thiidv that a judicial officer (if there were 
 such an officer), who had never held the revenue appointments, and had been 
 confined entirely to judicial business from the time of his arrival in the cotmtry, 
 would (-ceteris paribus be as competent for the judicial functions as an officer 
 who had gone through the service, and been emi)lo)ed in reveiuu" duties in the 
 iirst instance ? — I cannot think that he would be so competent ; I thiidv he 
 would be wanting in a great deal of that knowledge wliieli in this country 
 grows up with a man as he mixes with his fellows, and transacts business for 
 himself and others, ind(>pendently of his legal i)rofession. 
 
 1S86. Chair iiuDi.'] You mean in England: — I mean in F-ugland ; here a man 
 acquires all the knowledge which we wish him to gain in India bv going 
 throiigh the revenue department, of himself, as he passes througli life. I suj)- 
 
 o.io. R3 pose
 
 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 .J.HaUidat/,Esq. pose that ill this country am' man who knew notliing but law would be a very 
 
 bad judge : and still more must it be the case in India, where law is the least 
 
 14 March 1853. thing he has to knoi\- in order to fulfil properly the duties of the Bench. 
 
 1^87. Mr. Hardinge.'] Can you state the proportion of military officers as 
 compared with civil servants in thosc> establishments r — They are almost entirely 
 military officers in the non -regulation provinces. 
 
 i»8S. Sir T. //. M(tddoc.k.\ You have been describing the system which 
 prevails in the non-regulation provinces ; do you consider that the police is as 
 efficient in those provinces as in the regulation jjrovinces .' — The question is 
 very extensive ; the Punjaub is a non-regulation province. 
 
 i88(). The question refers to Assam, Tenasserini, Arracan, and the south- 
 western frontier provinces - — I confess I think it is quite as efficient in the 
 non-regulation as in regulation provinces. 
 
 1890. Do vou consider that justice is as fairly and as equitably administered 
 in those provinces as in the regulation provinces ? — Indeed I do. I was very 
 much struck, upon a visit which I paid three years ago to the Tenasserim 
 provinces, wlien 1 took occasion particularly to inquire into the manner of 
 administering justice, with the excellent manner in which justice was admi- 
 nistered in those provinces, both as to form and sul)stance. I think I have 
 said that I thought that in many respects it might form a model for the regu- 
 lation provinces. 
 
 i8()i. Then adherence to the regulations in Bengal is not altogether an un- 
 mixed good r — I have not been examined about the effect of the regulations in 
 Bengal at all. I should say, that I should consider the regulations to involve a 
 certain amount of mischief. The regulations relating to the judicial system were 
 for the most part made at a time when the idea of the summary administration of 
 justice was uncongenial to English minds, and it was thought that the best thing 
 to be done was to make them as much like as circumstances permitted to similar 
 tribunals in this countrv. Consequently the regulations were framed as far 
 as possible for the purpose of making the courts in Bengal humble imitations 
 of the courts at Westminster Hall ; and being worked amongst such a people 
 bv men untrained to legal niceties, it may be supposed that this system pro- 
 duced, in course of time, a great deal of complexity and difficulty, and expense 
 and delav m the administration of justice, which nowadays we see might have 
 been avoided, and which are or will be avoided by the changes which ai'e actually 
 taking place gradually and prudently (for you cannot change these things on a 
 sudden) in the countrv itself, under the recommendations of those employed in 
 the administration of justice, and under the laws framed for that purpose by 
 the Legislative Council. 
 
 i8(}2. Supposing all the criminal laws were formed into a code, or that what 
 is called the penal code, or any other code of the same nature, were passed 
 into a law, do you imagine that it would be of any great advantage to the 
 people generally, unless the form of procedure was altogether reformed and 
 revised by the establishment of a good system of administering justice in the 
 provinces .' — I will answer that question in this way, that I think it is of pri- 
 mary importance to improve the procedure, and no doubt it is of great import- 
 ance, secondarily to that, to iiuprove the law. In fact, there does exist a very 
 fair criminal law already, and the call for improvement, though urgent, is not 
 so urgent in that respect as in respect to th(> procedure. 
 
 1893. Is there any plan now in contemplation of amending the forms of 
 procedure in Bengal, or generally in India? — No new code of pro(>edure has 
 lati'ly been I)rought forward, but the defects in our ]irocedure, both in civil and 
 in criminal cases, have attracted great attention in the minds of people, in and 
 out of the service, and various amendments are gradually taking place in dif- 
 ferent parts of it, bringing it by degrees more into conformity with what is 
 now thought to be an improved .system ; so that I think things are in them- 
 selves tending towards a very great improvement in that respect in Bengal. 
 The Law Commissioners framed a code of procedure, but nothing has been 
 done upon it. 
 
 1 81)4. Have any recent measures been adopted to increase the efficiency of 
 the police in Bengal ? — The pay of the subordinates of the police has been 
 considerably increased, and they have had new oljje(!ts of ambition opened to 
 them by the promotion of some of their number to be deputy magistrates ; 
 
 and
 
 SELECT COMMITTEi: OX INDIAN TRRUITOItlES. 135 
 
 and more recently there has been a plan for bringing the village watchimsn F.J.HullHay,¥a<\. 
 
 more under the (lontrol of the m.'iiii-trates, and for ensuring to them a regular - — ■ 
 
 and eertain iiniount of pay, which i'ormerly was Ijy no means the case. The 14 March 1853. 
 law for the purpose was under consideration when I came away, and I believe 
 is under eonsideraiion still. 
 
 iSt),!. Has any recent stej) been taken to prevent those serious outljreaks 
 and breaches of the peace which formerly arose from disputes between zemin- 
 dars, disputes generally regarding lands and boundaries? — 1 am not aware of 
 any special measure; liaving been taken for that jjurpose. Anything that tends 
 to impi-ove the administration of civil justice, and to enai>le persons to get 
 speedy redress in the civil courts, if acconii)anied by an iin])rovement in the 
 police, will tend, and as far as it has gone, has tended to put down affrays on 
 account of boundary disputes ; but they still exist, tliough not, I think, by any 
 means to so great an e.xtent as in former years. 
 
 1896. Mr. EUicr.] Great comi)laints are made, in petitions which liave been 
 presented to Parliament, with respect to the efficiency of the police generally in 
 India ; will you state your impression of the efficiency of the police generally ? 
 — Here again I must limit my answer, by saving that I speak with reference to 
 the police in the lower provinces, with which I am more familiar than any 
 other, 1 cannot give it a good character ; at the same time I must say, that in 
 the hands of a good magistrate, even now the ])olice are capable of being made 
 much more efficient, and that they are more efficient than you would sup- 
 pose to be the case, judging from the complaints to which allusion has been 
 made. Much of the fault attributed to it, and the want of success which has 
 been complained of, is almost insuperable, in consequence of the character of 
 the people with whom you have to deal. You have a cowardly and untruthful 
 people, not in the smallest degree disposed to aid the police, but rather the 
 contrary : you have persons of power and influence, connected with the land, 
 who, so far from assisting you, are charged by their countrymen with assisting 
 thieves and robbers, and participating in their spoil ; and you have, at the very 
 foundation of the police system, a thoroughly ill-paid and demoralized set of 
 village watchmen, with respect to whom the zemindars resist most strongly 
 any attempt made to put them upon a better footing, because it will cause them, 
 they think, additional expense ; and you have to work through native agents, 
 and through a class generally whom you cannot afford to pay sufficiently, and 
 who, therefore, are exceedingly untrustworthy ; you had a system which, in 
 fact, ^vas i-otten when you found it, and which will take many years to put into 
 a proper state ; at the same time, I am far from saying that much might not be 
 done, and far from hoping that much will not be done. 
 
 1897. Has there been any neglect, in your opinion, on the part of the 
 authorities in India, in respect of doing their utmost to improve this system of 
 l)olice- — I cannot say that there has been neglect; perhaps the authorities 
 have not gone into the matter quite so fast as some might have wished, the 
 chief obstacle having, in fact, been the want of means ; but there has been 
 always a very strong disposition on the part of the Government to improve the 
 police, and from time to time there have been very great efforts. In 1838 a 
 committee was formed for the purpose by Lord Auckland, to investigate the 
 state of the police in Bengal, and they examined a great number of persons in 
 and out of the service, natives as well as Europeans, regarding the best manner 
 of improving it. The Government has adopted. I believe, every suggestion 
 made b}' that police committee of any importance between, that time and this ; 
 so that it can hardly be said that the Government has neglected its duty. But 
 I should say that since \838 public opinion has advanced a little; and it has 
 been thought that something more or something else might be done ; and it is 
 because that something more or somethinu' else has not been done now, that 
 people are apt to think the Government has neglected its duty. 
 
 1S98. Mr. Hardmge.'\ What is your opinion as to the substitution, which 
 has been proposed by some persons, of a mihtary police for the present civil 
 police ? — With respect to Bengal, a military police in Bengal could not consist 
 of the natives of the countrv. The Bengalee is not suited to be a soldier, and 
 therefoie a military police in Bengal must be a police composed entirely of 
 foreigners, men despising and fond of oppressing the Bengalee, having no 
 
 0.10. R 4 feeling
 
 'O 
 
 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. Hal/ie/a7j, Esq. feeling ill common with liim, and not understanding his language; and it is 
 
 easy to imagine what would be the effect of appointing a police with avins in 
 
 .} ^Jarch 1853. ^i^^,jj. h^nds to arrest thieves and to detect crimes in a country, the inhabitants 
 of which tliey despised, and with the language of which ihey were utterly 
 unacquainted. 
 
 i.S()9. Sir J. Ilo'jt]-'] Has any force, in the nature of a military |)ohce, been at 
 any time in existence in Btngal : and if so, was it found to answer, and has it 
 been continued, or has it been discontinued? — Tliere were, for a number of 
 years, certain regiments, called provin(>ial battalions, attached to the police, as 
 "a sort of military police in Bengal, and they were found not to answer at all ; 
 as a police, whenever so used, they were wholly inefficient ; and as a military 
 force, on almost all occasions whenever it was necessary to try their mettle, 
 the}- thoroughly failed ; and they weic done away with, with one or two excep- 
 tions, by Lord William Bentinck, and I believe no one has regretted it. 
 
 1900. Viscount Jorelj/n.] "What were the names of the different ranks of 
 officers in tlie civil j^olice force? — There is, lirst of all, the magistrate, with one 
 or two assistants under him, as the case may be ; he has also under hira two 
 or three di'i)Uty magistrates, not in the regular service, and chiefl}' natives, 
 stationed either' at the chief station or in different parts of the interior of his 
 district ; below them again there are the daroghas or thauadars, who are sta- 
 tioned in various parts of the districts, each with a body of from 15 to '25 burkun- 
 dauzes, or ordinary police constables, under them ; they are assisted also by an 
 officer called a jemadar, who is a kind of sergeant, and by a clerk, who is called 
 a mohurrir ; under all these again are the village watchmen, who ought, accord- 
 ing to understood usage, to be at the rate of about one to every 50 houses in 
 the village ; but tlicy have fallen into very great discredit and disorganization, 
 in consequence of there being actually no law which empowers the Government, 
 or any officer of the Government, to enibrce either their appointment or the 
 payment of their dues. 
 
 1 90 1 . What is the pay of the lower class of tjfficers in that force, beginning 
 with the jemadai ? — The pay of the jemadar is 10 rupees a month, and the pay 
 of the )noluuTir is sometimes eight. 
 
 190J. What is the darogha's pay ? — The darogha is one of those whose pay 
 has been increased latterly : his pay is 50 rupees, 75 rupees, or 100 rupees 
 a month ; it has been raised from 25, which was the rate at which it stood for 
 many years. 
 
 1905. What class of men are the officers employed in the lower grades, from 
 the jemadar downwards .' — They arc of a very low class ; below the jemadar 
 there is nothing but the burkvuidauzes, or constables ; b.elow them there are the 
 village watchmen ; the burkundauzes only receive, I think, four rupees a month, 
 and ihey have very large ojjportunities of peculation and ojjpression, and they 
 are generally of a low order in society, though not always by any means of a 
 low caste ; the village watchmen are the lowest ; tliey are formed almost 
 entirely of very lov.' and dejiraded castes, mere outcasts, in fact ; they would 
 receive, if they receive anything at all, about a ruju'c and a half a month. 
 
 1 ()04. Do vou believe it possible to have an efficient police force when the 
 men are paid at so lov. a rate as that? — It is wonderful what is possible in good 
 hands; and seeing what 1 have seen, and what 1 have heard has been done by 
 some magistrates in India for many years ])ast with these extraordinary mate- 
 rials, 1 cannot say that the thing is impossible, but it is very difficult. 
 
 lyo.'j. Do you think that if opportunities were given to men, who have served 
 in the army as soliiiers, of entering the ponce force, you would get a more 
 efficient body of men r — I do not ; ))rincipally for the reason 1 have stated, 
 tliat many of the men who serve in the army are Ilindostanees, and we are 
 speaking of Bengal ; the Ilindostanees do not even know the Bengal language, 
 and Ihey i)articnlarly ('espise the Bengalee men, and oi)press them wherever 
 they find them ; they would be utterly useless as a detective force, at all events, 
 though if mere courage were r((iiiired tliey would no doubt be all that could be 
 desired. 
 
 1900. Do i.ot you behave that the el; ss of nun by whom the police is now 
 carried on are open to bribery and to all kinds of corruption? — To an immense 
 extent. 
 
 1907. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON IN'DIAN TERRITORIES. 137 
 
 1907. Mr. Labouchere.] You stated that there was a general impression that F.J.Hal/ifla7/,Esq- 
 
 something more, something else, ought to he done, with reference to the 
 
 improvement of the police, besides the recommendations that were made by tlu' u Maich 1853. 
 (•(mimittee to Lord Auckland; what do you mean by " somethhig more or 
 something else ; '' what is the kind of way in which it is thought that the police 
 might be improved ? — One idea, which has been a very favourite idea with the 
 indigo jilanters of the interior, is, that if the police at the subordinate stations 
 was put into the hands of Englishmen it might be an imjjrovement. Another 
 has been, that if th(; indigo planters themselves were largely employed as 
 magistrates in the interior, that would be an improvement. Zemindars, again, 
 are apt to fancy that if similar ])owers were given to tliem it would improve the 
 police ; and they very often sujipose that it is for want of sullicient vigour in 
 the law and in the administration of it, to be exercised in a way quite incom- 
 patible with our notions of justice, that the ])olice works ill. For instance, 
 this has been a very favourite notion with them : they would have the magis- 
 trates seize, and, without further investigation, commit to prison for the 
 remainder of their lives, any persons whom the zemindar said were people of 
 bad character (a thing conceivable in a countr}' where you can rely upon testi- 
 mony, but in India, uttei-ly inconceivable), and which would put all the jjeople 
 of the village entirely into the hands of the zemindar, not to speak of their 
 other enemies. 
 
 190S. Are you able at this moment to specify any general improvement in 
 the police system, recommended by public opinion, which you think feasible r — 
 I cannot at this moment recollect any that I could recommend. 
 
 1009. Are you of opinion that there is any great improvement in the system 
 of police which might be effected by the Executive Government ?— 'J'here is no 
 question that rendering the pay of tlie village police certain and sufficient, and 
 rendering their situations respectable, would be the chief thing ; and that alone 
 would go a great way towards the improvement of the police, I think the greatest 
 way. After that, as soon as it could be afforded, the pay of the subordinate 
 officers of police, of whom mention has been made, should be increased ; be- 
 cause while they are paid at a rate that renders it almost impossible to punish 
 them for petty bribery, though you know it to exist, you cannot rely upon them 
 as instruments in your hands. 
 
 1910. Is the pohce materially better in some parts of India than it is in 
 others ? — My experience of other parts of India, besides Bengal, is slight, and 
 not recent ; but as far as my experience of the police in the upper provinces 
 has gone, I should say it is very superior to that of Bengal. 
 
 ^y^^. To what is that to be attributed ? — Partly because the people will not 
 be so oppressed and so bullied as they are in Bengal, but chiefly because they 
 work for tliemselves. Dacoits cannot enter a village in the upper provinces, 
 tie up the women and children, and put them to the torture, without running 
 the chance of the people opposing them by force ; they will do the best they 
 can for themselves in all cases ; but in the lower provinces they act upon all 
 those occasions like a flock of sheep. 
 
 1912. Sir G. Gre;/.] It has been stated that there has been an efficient 
 police lately established in the Punjaub; are you aware of the constitution of 
 that police force ? — I am not. 
 
 1913. Mr. Mangles.'] Some years ago had you not a plan of your own for 
 taking the village police out of the hands of the zennndars entirely, and 
 placing it under the control of the Government ? — Yes ; that arose out of my 
 strong impression that until the village police was better constituted you could 
 not hope for order ; and I doubt whether you have any chance of its being well 
 organized till you put it completely into the hands of the magistrates. It was 
 strongly opposed by men here and in India, to whose judgment great weight is 
 due. Recently the Government has made the nearest approach to the system 
 which I thought was possible, in the improvement which 1 have stated to 
 be now in progress ; namely, securing to the . watchmen the right to claim a 
 fixed and adequate rate of pay, and giving the magistrates the power to enforce 
 the payment, and to see that the vacancies in the village police are properly 
 filled up. But the rest is left as before, in the hands of the villagers or zemin- 
 dars, as the case may be. That is an approximation to the system which I 
 
 OAo. S proposed.
 
 1^8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 'o 
 
 F.J.Haltiday,Eici. proposed, with which I myself at present am satisfied, and if it is carried into 
 
 effect great improvement will be the result. 
 14 March 185?. 1914. Will you explain how the village rhokeydars are appointed; are they 
 
 appointed by the Government, and if not, by whom / — The Government has by 
 law no control whatever ; and latterly, in practice, it has had no control what- 
 ever over either tlie apjjointment or the dismissal of the village chokeydars. 
 The magistrates did exercise control for a number of years, but it was dis- 
 covered by the zemindars concerned that the magistrates had no legal power, 
 and, of course, that being the case, the magistrates were obliged to give it up. 
 It rests now entirely with the villagers, or with the zemindar, or with the vil- 
 lagers and the zemindar collectively, to appoint the chokeydars, and they have 
 to pay them, or to leave them to pay themselves by connivance at robbery, or 
 in any way that they can ; practically they omit to appoint them whenever they 
 ran, and pay them as little as they can. 
 
 iqi.j. Vou spoke of the character of the people as being a great obstacle to 
 the efficiencv of the police. Is not the character of the instruments unavoid- 
 ably used by the magistrates part of that obstacle ? — No doubt. 
 
 i()i6. Is it not the fact, that a very large proportion of the time of every 
 magistrate is taken up in watching his instruments and guarding against their 
 abuses, so as to prevent their interfering with the discharge of his duties? — 
 Every magistrate is obliged to act as if all the men under him were liars, and 
 therefore a great part of his time and attention is taken up in foiling the lies 
 and tricks of those upon whose agency, in theory, he is compelled to rely. 
 
 iqij. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] Do you consider that any reform of the village 
 police will be efficient as long as the persons employed in that force are to 
 receive their pay from the zemindars .' — Yes ; I do not think that is impracti- 
 cable so long as the)' have a right to claim their pay, and the power exists of 
 enforcing their claim. 
 
 J 91 8. Would there be any difficulty in compelling the zemindars to pay 
 annually, or at stated periods, into the treasury a sum sufficient for the proposed 
 salaries of those police conservants, in which case their pay would be distributed 
 to them by the collector ? — That was precisely what was alluded to as my pro- 
 position, but it was thought by many, and I think with justice, that it tended 
 to too nmch centralization, and that it severed the rightful connection between 
 the zemindar and the village, and the watchmen of the village, and that it would 
 be better done in the manner now proposed, by causing the zemindar to pay 
 what he ought, but not cutting off the connection between him and the village 
 police. 
 
 Kjio. You have described the gradations of the police force ; will you inform 
 the Committee whether the officers of jjolice generally, and the burkundauzes 
 in particular, are armed or unarmed ? — The burkundauzes are armed with 
 swords, in no other way ; and the village police are armed with sticks or 
 spears. 
 
 1920. Can you state whether of late years there has been any diminution in 
 the number of dacoitees and gang lobberies in Bengal ? — In four or five districts 
 in the immediate neighbourhood of Calcutta, so far from a diminution, thei'c has 
 been an increase ; in other districts there has been a diminution ; but all over 
 Bengal there has been a great diminution during the last few 3ears in the 
 atrocity of the nature of those gang robberies ; dacoitees are more numerous, 
 but they are more insignificant in character. 
 
 ''" 1921. Mr. Manffles.] Do you mean to say that there has been an increase in 
 the number of gang robberies of late years, as compared with the period when 
 ganjj; robberies were so rife in Kishnaghur and Bardwan in former years ? — 
 1 am not ))repared to sfiy whether it is so or not ; but as regards the periods 
 with which I am better acquainted, there has been a great increase.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 139 
 
 Jovis, 17" die Martii, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. B-.iiini;. 
 Mr. H:ir(lin<j;e. 
 ViscdUiu Jocelvn. 
 Mr. Baillic-, 
 Mr. Disraeli. 
 Mr. Hildy^.rd. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Mr. Manules. 
 Mr. H.H.Clive. 
 Mr. J. FitzGeiald. 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Sir George Grey. 
 Sir C. Wood. 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 Mr. Spoouei'. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Mr. HuQie. 
 Sir.L W. lIogiT. 
 Lord John Russell. 
 SirT. H. Maddock. 
 Mr. Lulwucliere. 
 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. I Sir R. H. laglis. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., in the Chair. 
 
 Frederick James Halliday, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 1922. Viscount Jocelyn?\ HAVE you any suggestions to make with the view F.J.IIaUiday,Esq. 
 of improving the police ? — The chief suggestion I have to make is, as I have — — — — 
 already mentioned, the improvement of the village chokeydars, and beyond that, ^^ March 1853. 
 the improvement of the salaries of the subordinate native police officers of 
 different grades ; after that, I think the improvement of the police is chiefly to 
 be looked for from improved administration. I look upon it that constant and 
 careful attention to the police, on the part of the Government, and a vigorous 
 administration of the system as it exists, improved in the manner I have pro- 
 posed, by the magistrates and the superintending officers, would do all, or nearly 
 all, that is required ; at all events, all that I can at present suggest. 
 
 19-23. Do you think that the inefficiency of the pohce is at all owing, in 
 certain cases, to the fault of the magistrates? — No doubt there are cases in 
 which the inefficiency of the police is owing to the fault of individual magis- 
 trates, not to the fault of the magistrates as a body ; but individual magistrates 
 have failed in their duty, and whenever they have done so, you have a system 
 resting upon the qualifications of a man that has broken down. 
 
 1924. Chairman.] Is the administration of justice by the covenanted judges, 
 that is to say, the Enghsh judges, in the regular ci^dl service, successful and 
 satisfactory?—! cannot say that it is altogether so successful or satisfactory 
 as could be wished : hitherto there has not been much of the principle of selec- 
 tion in the appointment of civil judges ; they have succeeded a great deal too 
 much by mere seniority ; and the consequence has been, that men, after 
 serving a certain number of years as collectors, unless there was an)'thing 
 verv marked against their character or their conduct, have thought themselves 
 entitled to succeed, and have succeeded, almost as a matter of course, to the 
 office of judge. Of course, under such a system, though there are, no doubt, 
 some very able men amongst the judges, there are also some exceedinglv 
 inefficient men ; and there are a great number of men who are neither one 
 thing nor the other, commonplace men. I am anxious, however, to say that 
 what I have seen in print regarding the appointment of the judges, at all 
 events of Bengal, namely, that they are appointed when they are unfit to be 
 collectors, and, as has been said, because they are unfit to be collectors, is, as 
 far as I know, wholly untrue ; what I have seen stated in another way, as 
 another subject of complaint, may almost be said to disprove that statement. 
 It is from among the judges that the commissioners of revenue, who are veiy 
 old officers, always having the contidence of Government, and having very 
 serious duties and trusts reposed iu them, are selected. Generally speaking, of 
 late years, from those commissioners of revenue have been selected the 
 
 0.10. 8 2 judges
 
 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. J. Hallida,j,Esc[. judges of the Sudder, the chief court of appeal. Now, if the body of judges 
 
 ■ is that from which those selections are now made, it is perfectly obvious that 
 
 J 7 March i S53. they are not the refuse of the service, not a body into which is cast all that is 
 unfit for employment elsewhere ; and, in fact, such is not the case. The prin- 
 ciple of selecting judges, rather on account of their merits than on account of 
 their standing, is, I think, acknowledged now by the Government, and is 
 beginning now to be acted upon ; and that it has not been acted upon 
 heretofore has not been, I think, from the absence of any disapproval 
 of mere promotion by seniority, but rather on account of the very great weak- 
 ness of the local Government of Bengal, arising out of the numerous changes 
 at the head of it which have occurred during the years which have elapsed 
 since the last Charter Act, amounting, I think, within my knowledge of it, to as 
 many as 1/ changes in as many years. It must be quite obvious to any one 
 that a Government so frequently changed can have neither sufficient knowledge 
 nor interest in the affairs it has to administer, nor sufficient strength to ad- 
 minister them properly, and with that vigour which is required, in order to 
 make all ])romotions "and appointments strictly on the ground of merit, and 
 not at all on the ground of seniority. I ought to mention perhaps, on the other 
 side, that tliere has been very great improvement of late years, in consequence 
 of a law passed not long ago, by which all the judges are obliged to write their 
 decisions in their own language, with their reasons ; and the practice which 
 has arisen of iiublishing, month by month, in pamphlets, which are widely 
 disseminated, all the decisions of all the English judges, all over the country. 
 This in some degree sujjplies the place of a public for each judge, and of 
 course strengthens the feeling of responsibility which it is so desirable to fix 
 upon every man at the time he is judging of the rights of others. Speaking of 
 the administration of civil justice, I may say also, that to my mind the system 
 of appeal is in a great degree unsatisfactory ; it has been so both in civil and 
 in criminal matters ; I am speaking now entirely of civil matters. Excejjt in 
 the highest courts, and there the change has been but recent, it has been 
 simply an appeal from one mind to another mind, from one single judge to 
 another single judge ; and under the method of selection that I have described 
 it has by no means always been the case that the appeal judge has had more 
 exi)erience, or has had greater qualifications, than the judge of original juris- 
 diction ; the appeal has been rather too nuich of a lottery, and that has 
 introduced an amount of uncertainty into the administration of civil justice, 
 and has fostered a disposition in the natives to engage in litigation almost as a 
 gambling transaction, to a degree that is very undesirable. This was the case 
 also in the Sudder Court, the highest court of appeal, though somewhat after 
 a diifereiit fashion, till very lately; but of late the law is, that all appeals must 
 go before a bench of three judges, and the decision is the decision of the 
 majority ; and it is very remarkable since that time of how much greater weight 
 the dc-cision of the Sudder has been than it used to be formerly. My notion 
 generally is, that you have not the means of securing a bench of two European 
 judges at ever)^ zillah station hi the Mofussil, and that it is not desirable or 
 necessary that you should have such a bench, in order to improve the system 
 of appeal. But I have no doubt (and have recommended it in writing before 
 this) tliatyou might have in almost every zillah station, perhaps in all, an appeal 
 bench, consisting of the zillah judge, and one native judge, well selected and well 
 paid ; and this bench should sit and decide ujion all cases of appeal from the 
 native judges in the interior, the English judge having the casting vote in case 
 of difference. 
 
 ip'i."}. Is the progress of imjjroveuu'nt which you have n\eutioned of such an 
 extent, or of such a description, as that without any legislative measure, or any 
 other stejjs being taken, the defects you have mentioned will be gradually and 
 speedilv corrected : — Uncpiestionably, the (iovernment as it at present exists 
 has full power, and, I am satisfied, full inclination, to introduce improvements, 
 and to ajjply them to all defects. 1 here is a strong disposition to reform 
 whatever is wrong, though things are done more slowl}^ by the Govi'rnuient 
 in that respect than, jx'rliaps, some ardent men might wish that things should 
 be done. 
 
 1 02(3. Is not the frequency of the absences and changes of civil judges a defect? 
 — Not by absences, as such. Leaving the seat of justice vacant can scarcely 
 be said to exist, except by the merest accident; it does not exist at all as a thing 
 
 spoken
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 141 
 
 spoken of, or complained of, or even noticed ; but the changes, as T mentioned F.J.IIallt<lay,Y.<.f\. 
 
 in the former part of my evidence, are more frequent than could be wished, ■ 
 
 and whenever they occur too frequently, they, of course, inijjair the sound '7 M:>rcl. 1853. 
 
 administration of justice. To this also, for some time past, the attention of the 
 
 local Government has been very closely directed ; and I tliink it was shown 
 
 some; time ago, to satisfy inquiry from home ui)on the point, that instances of 
 
 that description have been reduced almost to a minimum. Of course, in a 
 
 country where a man's health may at any moment break down, perhaps very 
 
 suddenly, and he must immediately come away, you cannot prevent occasional 
 
 absence, and you must be prejKU'ed to meet it; but that men are removed 
 
 without cause, or merely for their advantage, from one station to another, to 
 
 the detriment of public business (as certainly has been the case v.ithin my 
 
 knowledge in former years), is not the case now ; on the contrary, it is very 
 
 carefully guarded against. 
 
 1927. Passing to the question of criminjsl justice; is the administration of 
 criminal justice satisfactory ? — I think the administration of criminal justice is, 
 on the whole, more satisfactory than that of civil justice, perhaps because it is 
 an easier subject ; but there is room for x'eform there also. The chief thing that 
 I would notice is the tedious manner in which cases are very often heard. It 
 has come down to us from former days, when no doubt there was a distrust of 
 the qualifications, especially of the knowledge of the vernacular languages, of 
 the judges in the interior ; but it proceeds upon the idea that everjthing is to 
 be corrected by a system of appeal ; and this system of appeal has led to a 
 most cumbrous and tedious method of record, every single word in the course 
 of the trial being taken down at length, every question and answer, and all that 
 is said and all that happens, not in shorthand, but in the very slow, difficultly- 
 written and difficultly -read native character ; the consequence of which is, that 
 I myself know cases in which one affray or gang-robbery has taken as much as 
 six weeks in hearing ; I mean that the judge sat six weeks in the trial of one 
 case. That is an extreme case ; but it is the fact that, on the whole, the hear- 
 ing of those cases is very much more tedious than it ought to be ; and I do not 
 know any mode of rectif3'ing that so long as you permit this system of constant 
 appeal and written record. If you would allow, as you might now allov*-, the 
 knowledge of the judges of the vernacular and their qualifications being so 
 much superior to what they used to be when the system was established origin- 
 alh', and tending to improve every day ; if you would allow the notes of the 
 judge to be a sufficient record for the purposes of revision, and if you would 
 give them, as I believe you might give them, juries for their assistance in the 
 trial of all cases at the sessions, and if you would limit the appeals to cases in 
 which some strong cause was shown, or in which the jury differed from the 
 judge, or in whicli, in the discretion of the sujjerior court, there was some 
 special reason for re-opening the case, and if you would cause all other decisions 
 to be final, I believe that in the long run you would be doing better for the 
 administration of Justice than by aiming at that extreme accuracy, which is the 
 object of the present system, which, in such cases as I have mentioned, where 
 the trial lasts for five or six weeks, makes the administration of justice, perhaps, 
 almost a nuisance. Those two or three things, the limitation of appeals and 
 the use of juries in criminal cases, and the judge taking his own notes, and those 
 notes being considered sufficient for the revising court in the few cases that 
 would come up for revision, form, I think, nearly all that I have to say on the 
 bcoi'e of the improvement of the administration of criminal justice. 1 do not 
 now allude to the exemption of Europeans, British subjects, from the criminal 
 courts ; for that is a special matter which is now generally under consideration 
 by the Government here and in India. 
 
 1928. You mentioned the introduction of juries; what is your opinion as 
 to the qualifications necessary for a juror ? — I do not think that any precise 
 <jualification can be laid dov.n ; I think you might leave that very much to the 
 discretion of the local authorities. You must say that a man of apparent 
 respectability and intelligence must be put upon the jury list ; and you must 
 have the local officer, say the collector, subject, perhaps, to the revision 
 of the commissioner, to make out the list in the best manner that he is 
 able, leaving parties to ai)pcal, either for the sake of being put upon the list 
 or being struck off the li;t. as they may desire. 1 should endeavour, in the 
 X'ourse of the administration of justice, to make the being upon the jury list 
 
 o.io. s :; a mark
 
 142 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F.J.Hallidat/,Esq. ^ mark of honour and respectability; I would, therefore, strike off all persons 
 . who failed in anv of those resnects : and I would endeavour, as far as I could, 
 
 17 March 1853. to give some distinctions, upon suitable occasions, to persons upon the jury li:?t, 
 making them superior to their fellows, and making it, if possible, an object of 
 anxiety to come upon this list ; because I am satisfied that, however well the 
 jury system might work in the end, it would not at first be a popular thing to 
 introduce amongst the natives : they would think it harassing and annoying ; 
 they would not undcr'^tand the value of it, and would endeavour as far as pos- 
 sible to evade it. Still, wherever it has been introduced, it has worked, so far 
 as I know, extremely well. I have said upon a former occasion, that in the 
 Tenasserim Provinces the institution is very successful ; and also in the dis- 
 tricts of the south-western frontier, vvhere it has been constantly worked by 
 Major Wilkinson. I have seen also the same report by a very distinguished 
 judicial officer, Mr. Lushington, who returned last year after having served 
 in the Upper Provinces, showing the wonderful success with which he had 
 used juries in a number of criminal cases as sessions judge in the Upper 
 Provinces. On the whole, I am satisfied myself that the use of juries would be 
 a very great improvement, and would tend not only to improve the adminis- 
 tration of justice, but to cultivate and civilize the people, and to instruct them 
 in the administration of their ati'airs. It is a question, of course, whether juries 
 so used should be able to give a verdict binding on the court or not. The ten- 
 dency of opinion in India hitherto has been, arising I think out of timidity, 
 that they should not be able to give a binding verdict ; on the contrary, the 
 judge has everywhere been allowed to overrule their verdicts, and he has over- 
 ruled them freely. I confess myself, that I should not be at all unwilling to 
 give them ultimately a completely binding ])ovver of verdicts. All the evil that 
 would haj)pen, as far as I can see, would be that they might acquit in some 
 cases where the judge might wish to convict. I do not think that would be 
 the general tendency of juries. 1 should rather be afraid of the op))osite error, 
 namely, of convicting too readily, that being generally the native idea of the 
 administration of criminal justice. But if they did, there would be a sufficient 
 remedy for that ; the judge should be able to report it to the higher authorities 
 as in his opinion a case for mitigation or absolute pardon ; or the superior 
 authorities, that is to say the Sudder Court, should have the power, upon cause 
 shown, of ordering a new trial. I must say, judging from n\y own feeling, that 
 I imagine that the people would take a deeper interest in the administration 
 of justice as jurymen, if they felt that their verdict was to have that power in 
 the decision of the case, than they would do if they knew that they were 
 merely to give an opinion which tlie judge might toss overboard if he chose. 
 I myself heard in C^eylon, when I inquired into the subject very particularly, 
 upon a visit which I made there about three years ago, that the use of assessors, 
 which is a system of juries, whose verdict the judge has power to set aside 
 whenever he likes, has not worked well at all ; and when I was there they were 
 on the eve of getting rid of it altogether, in consequence of the complete 
 failure of the system, the natives showing great apathy about it, and it being 
 of very little use . I apprehend that tliat was in a great measure owing to their 
 feeling that they had no real power in the case, and their, therefore, taking very 
 little interest in it. 
 
 1929. Do you think that the verdict of the jury ought to be, as in England, 
 conclusive, and not subject to the ai)i)roval of the judge, as you mention that 
 it is in Tenasserim r — Quite so ; I mean that it should be conclusive. 
 
 1930. Would you have the same number of jurymen as in England? — No, 
 ycm cannot attempt that ; it wotdd make it a great deal too harassing ; I think 
 you migiit have jjerhaps three or five. Three is the number which has been 
 generally used ; five would be lietter if you could get that number, giving a 
 verdict by the majority. That would be as much as you ought to aim at, and 
 I dare say that you would even tiien find sonu' difficulty. I would limit it for 
 some time to come to five or to three. 
 
 1931. Would not the distinction which you have ])roposed should be given 
 " to jurymen as a reward, have a tendency to induce juries to frame their verdicts 
 
 so as to propitiate the (Jovernment and the local authorities:-' — 1 do not think 
 juries would ever think about the (Government in the matter; but I apprciiend 
 they would think, reward or no reward, about the opinion of the local authority. 
 It has been remarked by all who have tried the institution of juries in India, 
 
 and.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 143 
 
 and, in fact, by all who know anything about the natives, that in endeavouring L'.j:Uallidai/,EBq. 
 
 to obtain their o])inions upon a subject, you must always carefully conceal your 
 
 own; for, either from too much submissiveness, or i'rom apathy and careless- 17 Maich 18-.3. 
 
 ness, or what it may be I know not, a native, when he is asked for his opinio?i, 
 
 judicially or otherwise, will always, if he possibly can, frame his answer 
 
 according to what he supj)oses you wish, especially if the question be put by a 
 
 person in authority ; they seem to think it a matter of necessary politeness, 
 
 and it is a thing of great difficulty to get from a native an opinion upon any 
 
 subject except one mei'cly trivial and connnonplace : therefore iny answer to 
 
 the question which you have put would be, that it would depend upon the 
 
 careful administration of the system by the j\idges who used it ; if the judge 
 
 allowed the jury to see the bias of bis own mind before he called upon theni 
 
 for thei)' verdict, I have no doubt whatever that the verdict of the jury would, 
 
 generally speaking, be iu consonance with the opinion of the judge ; and for 
 
 that reason the system of charging the jury and giving an opinion (which is 
 
 the English system) by the iiench, before they give their verdict, would be 
 
 altogether inapplicable to the system of juries in India; the judge and the jury 
 
 together must hear the case, and, that being done, the judge, without showing 
 
 any bias whatever, must call upon the jury 10 state their verdict absolutely ; 
 
 having done so, he may declare his own opinion. 
 
 1932. Would not the judge, as in England, state the law to the jury? — The 
 judge might state the law ; I do not think that the system of charging the jury 
 should be pursued, except where it was necessary to explain the law ; but the 
 law being so clear and simple, and so different iu that respect from what pre- 
 vails here, I do not think it would be necessaiy in many cases to charge the 
 jury in that sense ; but in whatever the judge is called upon to do before the 
 verdict is given, he must be careful not to let the jury see what his opinion is, 
 or the verdict of the jury will correspond with that, and not with the facts of 
 the case. 
 
 1933- ^\ ith reiiard to the Sudder Courts, do you consider their constitution 
 satisfactory, or -would you suggest any improvements r — Of late years the 
 selections of the judges for the Sudder Court have been very carefully made. 
 I think the Sudder Courts at present stand high in public estimation. I 
 myself have long wished to see an English judge permanently at the liead of 
 the Sudder Courts. 1 think that his want of knowledge of the native lan- 
 guage would not be important, because, at all events in Calcutta, the language 
 of the Sudder Court is almost entirely English, and any knowledge which he 
 might want of the people, and of their customs, would be made up to him very 
 soon by the assistance of his colleagues and by the Bar, which is an able Bar, 
 and an improving one, Aviiich he would have before him in the Sudder Court. 
 I think the presence of a liberal English judge, something more than a lawyer, 
 •who should be in a manner responsible for the administration of justice all 
 over the country, and who should be at the head of the administration of justice, 
 would have some effect in introducing regularit}^ and many important reforms 
 in the administration of justice generally. It would be something of the same 
 sort, and would have something of the same effect, that the placing an English 
 statesman at the head of the Government, or an English general at the head 
 of the arm}^ has over those two branches. I think also that the time has 
 come when you might put a native upon the bench of the Sudder Court. It 
 is in the administration of justice that the natives have longest and most 
 effectually served us ; it is, 1 think, generally admitted ihat it is that for which 
 they are most fitted. There are amongst them men who have done vev}' good 
 service, who have spent their whole lives upon the judicial bench, and I think it 
 would be a very good thing for the country, for the people, and for the 
 administration of justice generally, that there should be some such great 
 reward as this ; some such great prize in the lottery to look forward to. It is 
 precisely in that way that I think the natives may be brought forward, not by 
 putting them into the covenanted service, which would be a mistake, because 
 when you put a man into the covenanted service you put him in young, and 
 you take the chances of success or of failure. The chances of success with 
 young men from England are, on the whole, with good management, in their 
 favour. The chances of success at present with young men born in India, 
 manage as ycu will, would be, generally speaking, against you, it being noto- 
 rious that the natives at present, and perhaps it will be so for a long time to 
 
 0.10. s 4 coifte,
 
 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 r. J. Hallidat/, Esq. come, whatever be their promise as young men, are very apt to fall off and to 
 
 disappoint you exceedingly when they come forward into life. Now a failure , 
 
 17 March 1853. in the attempt to bring natives forward in that manner, by appointing 
 them to the covenanted service, would have a highly dispiriting and dis- 
 courairing effect ; it would never be compensated for by the mere fact of 
 havinsr put three or four, or ever so many young natives into the covenanted 
 service : it would throw the advancement of the people back many years. On 
 the other hand, by trying them experimentally, hrst in subordinate oHices, and 
 then carefully putting them forward with a liberal hand, as they show fitness, 
 and then bv a careful selection, in rare instances, where they show peculiar 
 fitness, putting them into higher positions of administration, especially as 
 regards the administration of justice, that appears to me to be the manner in 
 which the cultivation and civilization of the natives, and the improvement of 
 their fitness for the administration of their own affairs, is to be looked to and to 
 be effected. I believe that putting a native judge into the Sudder Court would 
 have a very good effect. The language in the Sudder Court in Calcutta is now 
 chiefly English, and owing to the system they i)virsne it will become entirely 
 English : English barristers practise largely before it, and the court is con- 
 sidered to be, upon the whole, so good as to form almost a model. 
 
 1034. You stated that, however promising the young natives were, there was 
 frequently a disappointment when they became of mature age ; do you mean 
 disa])pc>intment as it regards the development of their talents, or as it regards 
 the development of their moral character? — Both; it is curious that they fail in 
 both wavs. There are a great number of young men of promise coming from 
 our educational institutions ; and it is a notorious fact that a very large projjor- 
 tion will break down by the time they are 2'>, sometimes in morals, sometimes 
 in hitellect, and as often as not in both. 
 
 1935. Mr. B(nllie.~\ Are there many barristers in the Sudder Court, natives, 
 who practise in English ? — There are several. In explanation of tliat, I may say 
 that English has been introduced as the language in the administration of 
 justice in the Sudder Court, somewhat in this way : the nominal language of 
 the court is Oordu, but the records of the appeal cases from the various courts 
 come up in the language of the court in which they are tried ; Bengalee from 
 Bengal ; ( )ordu, or Hindostanee, from Baha ; Oorya from Cuttack, and so 
 on. " The language in which the pleadings are supposed to be conducted, if 
 there are oral pleadings and oral discussion in the Sudder Court, is Oordu or 
 Hindostanee ; but a rule has been made, that whenever the vakeels, who 
 answer to the barristers, on both sides understand Fnglish, and are wiUing that 
 the Ini.-iness should bo conducted in English, it may be so conducted. The 
 effect of that, and of the gradual coming into the court of English barristers 
 from the Supreme Court, and of natives who understand Enghsh, and of 
 Englishmen, neither barristers nor natives, who of course understand English 
 better than anything else, has been to make the use of English in the Sudder 
 Court the rule, and the use of Hindostanee the exception ; and Hindostanee is 
 fast iioins: out as the language in use in the Sudder Conrt, with verv marked 
 advantage 
 
 1936. Chairman.^ With regard to the zillah judges, would it be advisaT)le to 
 make a selection among English barristers, either in India or in England, for 
 the purpose of a})pointing zillah judges? — I cannot think that that would be 
 any improvement. To take barristers from England, I suppose you must take 
 barristers of a certain immber of years' standing ; five years' standing. To 
 fill all the judgeships, you wouUl require fully one hundred, perhaps more. 
 I doubt very much whether the salary offercjd for the office, being an unincreas- 
 ing salary for life, witli no hope beyond it, woidd attract any but very connnon- 
 place men from this country, seeing that higlier salaries there have been found 
 insufficient sometimes to temj)! the best men that were required for the situa- 
 tions o])en to 1)arristers in India. Then, when you had got those men who 
 wouhl l)e connncjnplaee men. they would lie entirely ignorant of the languai;es. 
 and they would take a certain time, which would be all lost time, in acquiring 
 them ; and they woidd be wholly itrnorant of tlu; people ; a knowledge which, 
 when once jjlaced upon the zillah bench, with no previous method of ac(iuiring 
 it, I think they never would obtain ; so that looking at the considerabh^ term 
 which there would be of ii^norance of the language, and the still longer term 
 of ignorance of the people and their customs, 1 do not think, at all events, 
 
 that
 
 SELECT COMMlTrKK ON INDfAiV TERRITORIES. 145 
 
 that you could look for any improvement upon the jjresent system, sueh as the r. J.lIollirfoy.Ki^. 
 
 present system is capal)!*' of if wi'll niaiiaijcd ; and if there l)e no improve- 
 
 mcnt to be exjH'eted from it, sueli a change, for tin; sake of ehansje, is not what '" •'^'^'■'^'•1 >^53- 
 I shoukl consider advisabU'. I may add to that, that barristers so sent out, 
 mdess you drafted them into tlie i-ivil service, whicli so hnii; as you retain the 
 civil service for the administration of affairs in India, is oljviuusly objection- 
 able, would have nothinii; to look to. As a class, they would be a downward- 
 tendiui.',, hopeless class ; they would be deterioratiuii by the climate, and dete- 
 rioratinL-; by jjosition ; they wouUl see persons constantly passiui; them. 
 I think that they would take a loiii? while in becominc; fit for the situation of 
 Judsres, and that soon after they had become tit tliev woidd take a downward 
 tendency, and become unfit. My opinion decidedly is that you would lose 
 rather than ,a:ain by such a chansje. As rcii'ards the selection of barristers in 
 India for zillah judiics, 1 would say one word, nanu-ly, that the; courts there 
 would not suppl}' barristers enousi;h ; and where they did supi)ly them, anybody 
 who knows the state of thina:s will know that you would li'ct nothing; hut the 
 mere refuse. No person of any hojies or ambition, or of any power, would ifo 
 out froiu the Supreme Courts to the Mofussil, as judsre, to pass the rest of his 
 life in the Mofussil, except those who were fit for nothing else, or rather were 
 not fit for that, but were fit for nothing at all. 
 
 i()37. What training would you recommend for the zillah judges to fit tliem 
 for their duties ? — To begin at the beginning, 1 should like to see the zillah 
 judges, perhaps, more carefully selected in this countr}- Avhen they are first 
 sent (Hit, or if not more carefully selected, at all events more carefully weeded 
 iuid better qualified before going out. 
 
 1938. ^Ir. Mangles. ] You mean the whole of the civil service ?— The whole 
 of the civil service. If the civil judges are to be selected from the civil service, 
 their preparation must begin when they are educated for the civil service ; I 
 think they might be prepared by keeping them longer in England, and by 
 requiring from them a considerable knowledge of history, constitutional 
 history, the history (.f India, jurisprudence, the elements and priucijilcs of law, 
 and things of that sort, likely to fit them hereafter for the aduiinistration of 
 justice. ^A'hen they arrived in India after having passed the preliminary 
 examinations to which they would then be subjected, of which I have already 
 spoken in a former part of my evidence, they would go out and receive very 
 useful training as assistants to magistrates and collectors, all tending to qualify 
 them in a liberal sense for the bench ; and from all tlie experience they would 
 gain in their progress through the revenue department, they would become, in 
 the manner which I have already explained, more and more fitted for the 
 situation of judges. I wish, however, that a very useful ofhce, which formerly 
 existed, that of registrar, or assistant judge, could be revived ; it was an office 
 in which young men were placed in order to administer justice in comparatively 
 imimportant cases, unimportant at all events as regards amount, and uiuler the 
 immediate eye of the judge, and in which they had opportunities of acquiring 
 practice in trying civil cases, which is now in a great degree wanting. This office 
 was abolished by Loixl William Bentinck, because of the plausible objection 
 that young men were learning to decide well the cases of the wealthy by 
 deciding ill the cases of the poor ; but the risk you now run is that they learu 
 to decide neither the one nor the other ; and they are placed in a situation 
 of control, and on the bench of appeal, when they have had no previous 
 exjierience in the trial of civil cases in the first instance. There wovdd be no 
 difficulty, so far as I see, in re-establishing that office ; it was abolished very 
 much against the opinion of the more experienced members of the civil service 
 at that time, and I believe it would be generally felt to be an improvement to 
 re-establish it. 
 
 1939. Chairman.'] The registrars were attached generally to the zillah 
 courts ? — Yes, each judge had a registrar attached to his court. 
 
 19^0. 'i hen the Committee are to understand that, with the changes you 
 have suggested, you would generally prefer the present system of allowing 
 men brought up in other branches of the civil administration to succeed to 
 judicial appointments .' — Yes, I would ; supposing, of course, that there is a 
 discretion used in selecting them. It should not be that every man after he 
 has arrived at a certain standing shouhl be a judge, because he has served, 
 without absolute reproach as a collector ; but there should be some selection, 
 
 o. J o. T some
 
 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F.J.HaUiday,Esq. some method of probation, and some fair expectation that the man selected is 
 
 fit to be put upon the judicial bench. I beUeve that the knowledge generally 
 
 17 March 1853. that the promotion was managed in that way, would of itself produce a consi- 
 derable amount of fitness. 
 
 i()4 1 . The Committee are aware that the Law Commission is practically 
 extinct ; should you recommend its revival, and if so, would you recommend 
 it in the shape in which it was originally constituted ? — Not, according to my 
 notions, in the shape in which it was originally established. I believe it is 
 generally admitted that the Law Commission as originally established has failed 
 of success ; opinions may differ as to the reasons. ]My own notion of the 
 reasons is, that they failed because of the relation in which they stood to the 
 Legislative Council ; they formed no part of the Legislative Council ; they sat 
 apart and concocted schemes very ably and very carefully for the improvement 
 of the law ; those plans were then sent up to the Legislative Council, which had 
 very little interest and very little sympathy in all that they had done, and that 
 they sent before them ; they had been no party to the previous discussions ; 
 they kneAv nothing of how the matter had originated, or how it had been car- 
 ried on ; they had the choice of either taking very elaborate and difficult 
 schemes and i)assing them oft'-hand, unable at the same time to waive any part 
 of the responsibility, upon the mere credit of the report of the Law Commission, 
 or of beginning the whole subject again ab oro, and travelling over the same 
 ground thai had been travelled by the Law Commissioners before ; for this 
 latter course they had often neither time nor inclination, or if they had, having 
 no guidance from the Law Commissioners to help them, generally speaking, 
 they travelled by a different route and often arrived at quite a different con- 
 clusion ; the consequence wa<, that partly owing to neglect, and partly to 
 difference of opinion, the recommendations of the Law Commissioners 
 remained mostly hung up, without being carried out, and I believe that the 
 same thing would occur again if the Law Commission were re established upon 
 that footing. What, according to my view, seems to have been wanted, and to 
 be wanted now, is that the Law Commissioners, or at least a part of them, 
 should be incorporated into the Legislative Council, and should have the means 
 of urging, advocating, and carrying forward their own measures in the Council; 
 that they should take the Council with them before they begin to work out a 
 plan ; that they should carry the Council along with them during the whole 
 discussion, to its conclusion, and then 1 believe that the Law Commission so 
 constituted, with a good Legislative Council, which also would require some 
 enlargement, might do a great deal of good, and would be very efficient ; but 
 at present I do not think the constitution of the Legislative Council by any 
 means what it ought to be. 
 
 U)42. What change would you suggest in the constitution of the Legislative 
 Council ? — The Legislative Council at present, as the Committee are probably 
 aware, consists of tlie Executive Council, that is to say, the Governor-general, 
 the Commander-in-chief, and three ordinary members of Council, and this, for 
 legislative piu'poscs, is strengthened by the fourth member; it is only the 
 fourth member who is considered responsible for the legislation of the Council. 
 The Governor-general of course has no time to attend to such details, nor the 
 Conunander-in-chief. The military memlx-r is by no means always fitted for 
 this duty by previous pursuits; and tlu; two civil members are rather disposed 
 to remit such matters to the fourth member, whose si)ecial duty it is, and wlio 
 has nothing else to do. The consequence of this has I)een, that everything has 
 de))cnd('d ujjon the character and (pialifications of this one man. Things about 
 which he has been eager and anxious, and well informed, have gone on and 
 been carried out with sufficient rapidity ; while things about which he has 
 taken no interest, or aljout which he has not been sufficiently informed, have 
 languished ; ;ind there has been nobody whose interest or business it has been 
 to i)ush them along. Hence there h;is been very great delay in the business of 
 legislation in the Legislative Council, and it has been felt that as an in^-trument 
 of legislation, it has fallen short of expectation. I have said that I would intro 
 duce a portion at least of the Law Commission into the Legislative Council. 
 1 thmk vtiu might well introduce into it two members, one from Madras, and 
 the otlier from Hombay, taken from what used to constitute the Law Com- 
 mission. 1 think you might also have e.r officio members, such as the Chief 
 Judge of th(! Su])reme Court, tlie judge of the Sudder Court, a member of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN Ti-RRITORIES. 147 
 
 the Revenue Board, two or more of the secretaries to the ."Suprenie (ioveniitieiit, t\ .j.i{a/lidaii,Ei>q 
 
 and so on, so as to have a body of 14 or 15 capable men representing different 1^ 
 
 branches of the achuinistration, and those branches from which in fact tlie 17 March 1853. 
 legishition does in India chiefly emanate. Those men, knowinir the wants of 
 the country, would be able with the assistance of those under them employed 
 in the Executive Administration, to point out good measures, they would be 
 able to follow them up; they would see that they vven^ carefully discussed in 
 the Council, and they would carry out, as it were, each man for his own 
 department the measures which he had taken up. And in the long run, I 
 imagine that legislation conducted by such a council, especially if all the 
 debates were oral, with merely the power of written protests or dissents, 
 would be c^ari'ied on in a much more satisfactory mannei- than it has been 
 hitherto. I do not know whether I need go on to say, that I would 
 not i)ut natives upon such a council ; 1 must say that as a body the natives 
 are unfit to be placed u])on any Legislative Council. There may be a rare 
 case, and I know of such eases, of men who would be useful as members 
 of such a council ; but such men would by no means represent the natives ; 
 they would not even represent the natives of the country to which they 
 nominally belong ; still less would they represent the people of India, but 
 rather the contrary. In proportion as they were fittest for the Legislative 
 Council the)' would be unfit as representatives of their countrymen. Besides 
 which they would be open to all kinds of solicitations and intrigue ; and thongli 
 I dare say there are men who miglit be selected, a few of them, who would be 
 superior to all such solicitations, I believe that the character of the Council 
 would on the whole suffer, and that its deliberations would not in any degree 
 be impro'-ed by the admission of natives to the ( 'ouncil. You cannot suppose, 
 for instance, that a native of Bengal, I may say of Calcutta to begin with, 
 could be called a representative of natives of Bengal ; certainly if he had been 
 educated in Calcutta he would not, whatever else he might be. It would 
 be probably from the natives of Bengal that the selection would mostly be 
 made ; but they would not at all represent the natives of the upper pro- 
 vinces, who would only look upon them not merely with jealousy but with 
 contempt ; and so with respect to other parts of the country. F^ven sup- 
 posing there should be men nt for such a position, unless you can afford to 
 have, and to pay for the services, natives qualified to represent the various 
 nations and various castes and classes and interests of all the native subjects, the 
 admission of one or two men who would really be peculiarities would, I verily 
 believe, do more harm than good. 
 
 1943. Do I rightly understand you that the duties which were especially 
 connuitted to the Law C^ommission would according to your plan devolve upon 
 the Legislative Council, or vyould you sepai-ate the Law Commission and the 
 Legislative Council / — No, I would leave the Legislative Council to manage 
 that as it thought fit. It might divide itself into committees, or it might have 
 executive subordinate officers to draft and frame laws in the first instance, 
 and to do the drudgery of a Legislative Assembly. But I have no idea of a 
 Law Commission under the Legislative Council which I have supposed. 
 
 1 944. Would a body formed as you have suggested, for the Legislative 
 Council, have such a knowledge of the habits and customs, and prejudices of 
 the natives, as to be able to enact laws without native aid? — lu one sense you 
 may say that the laws at present are not enacted without native aid. The 
 natives exercise considerable influence over all the legislation in India ; but 
 they exercise it in a manner which I imagine, in the present state of native 
 information and civilization, is the only manner in which it is safe to allow 
 them to exercise it. Scarcely any laws are passed without much previous cor- 
 respondence with the administrative officers at the heads of the departments 
 and in the interior. It is never the custom of those officers to give any 
 opinions, and scarcely to form any opinions upon subjects relating to the 
 natives, and their concerns, without lai'gely consulting the natives ; and that 
 they do, generally speaking, in the ordinary manner in which it is safe and 
 useful to consult the natives, namely, by selecting persons who to their know- 
 ledge are well informed, and talking to them in their own way ami at tlieir own 
 times, and getting out of them their opinions in the only manner in which 
 their opinions are to be got, namely, by that tact and management which can 
 only be used by persons long accustomed to the natives and knowing them 
 
 •0.10. T 2 familiarly.
 
 148 MINUTES OF EVIDFACE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 it:J.]ud/iilai/,Es(i. familiarly. Heiu'e it comes that almost every opinion that comes before the 
 
 Legislative Council, and guides them in framing laws is tinged in a great 
 
 37 March 1853. measure, and very often entirely coloured, by native opinions. The natives, in 
 this inchrect manner, exercise a very large influence over legislative matters in 
 India. In this way the Legislati\e Council is now to a great extent, and by 
 the system which I lune proposed wt)uld be still more, qualified to legislate for 
 the natives without actually liaving any natives among them to appeal to, and 
 1 believe much better than if the}' had natives among them, unless they had a 
 great many : for the reason I have mentioned, that not any one, or two, or 
 three, or even half a dozen natives, would in any sufficient degree represent 
 the opinions and feelings of the different classes of natives. 
 
 IQ45. Are the Committee to nnderstand that you think that a Legislative 
 ( 'ouncil, without a Law Commission, and without any natives amongst such 
 Legislative Coiuicil, would be the body best adapted for framing laws for India? 
 — Certainly. 
 
 194(1. \Yould you retain the Legislative Member of Council, appointed as at 
 l)resent by the Crown r — I certainly would. I think a Legislative Member of 
 Council, that is, a man both a lawyer and statesman, sent fresh from England, 
 at mature age, and after some ex))ericnce of things here, is not only of very great 
 use, but is indispensable in such an assembly as that. I would add, however, 
 with regard to the Legislative Member of Council (if he is called by that name), 
 that 1 think it was a mistake not to give him the power of an Executi^ e Member 
 of Coun(;il. \t present he is merely employed in legislative business, and has 
 no voice or vote in executive matters ; the consequence of which is, tliM.t he has 
 not sufficient opportunity, which he otherwise would have, if executive matters 
 passed luider his eye, and he was obliged to form an opinion and to give a vote 
 upon them, of learning' the state of things in the country for which, ;-io far as 
 legislation is concerned, he must be always in a great measure answerable, lie 
 does not tind out what is wanted, or how it is wanted ; at all events, he does not 
 find himself so well informed as could be wished of the state of things, for which 
 remedies are required, or of the best means of applying those remedies. 1 think 
 it would be an improvement in all respects if such a man had a voice in the 
 Executive Government, both even for the Executive Government itself as well as 
 for the Legislative Government. 
 
 1047. Docs the fourth member of Council sit with the Ccuncil when it sits as 
 .an executive body ? — He practically sits by sufferance of the Government in 
 India and at home ; but that has been two or three times, within my knowledge, 
 (piestioned, and on one occasion (I belie^'e it is a matter of history), that he was 
 even recjuested to leave the room, which weakens his position in all respects. 
 
 1()4<S. Mr. Htnitc.] Has he the ])apers sent to him which are circulated among 
 the other mend^ers of the Council? — lie has, quite recently, also by sufferance 
 of tlu; Government, the jjapers in one dei)artment only, the home department 
 of the (iovernment, sent to him in circulation. Hut it is very apparent that 
 he cannot profit by the perusal of tliose papers sent to him merely as mutters 
 of curiosity, in the same manner as he would l)c obliged to profit by them if 
 he found it necessary to master them with the \iew of giving an effective vote 
 ujjon tlie matter to which they ri'late. 
 
 if)4Q. Are not all the papers sent round to the Commander-in-chief, as well 
 as to the other members of the Council ? — They are sent to all the meml)ers of 
 the Council. 
 
 1950. Arc the Committee to understand that the papers onh' of one depart- 
 ment are sent to the legal memljcr r— Only of one department as a matter of 
 right; that is, the legislative department: but by sufferance the pa])ers of the 
 home branch of the executive department are sent to the legal meml)er. 
 
 1951. But as \\i\ has no vote, and is not called upon to give any opinion upon 
 the subject, he does not master those ])a|)ers, or profit by them, as he would do 
 if lie had to take a share in the decision?—! do not think he prolits l)y them 
 so nmch as lie might do in that c;ise. 
 
 I9.r2. Sir T. II. Madilork.^ When was that change made? — The change has 
 gone l)ackwards and forwards ; it has l)een made and recalled more than 
 once. 
 
 i9.')3- ^\ h( 11 wa^ the last change made l)y which now the fourth member of 
 the Council has the papers in the Home Department? — The last change was 
 made in the beginning of 1849, and it led to a discussion in which the right of 
 
 the.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERIUI ORIKS. mu 
 
 th<! fourth meinbor to sec thosr p:ii)ers was cuicstionod. T^poii the soiuliiiii; of F- J. Ilci/i'/ni/.V.sc]. 
 
 the pajjcrs of the iloiiie Departincnt to him, hcinii; revived in IS 19, the ([uestiou 
 
 was again raised, and very warmly discussed, and referred to Enghuid, as -7 M:*"'' >"."».".• 
 
 to whetlier it was riuht that the fourth niem1)er of the Council should see 
 
 tliose papers : and whether, seeing them, he had a right to give an oi)iniou 
 
 upon them, not a vote. The discussion was terminated by instructions from 
 
 home. 
 
 M)')A. Mr. Jlinvi'.'] What were the instruetions from home upon the -ubjeet r 
 — The instru(!tions were that it Avas advisable and expedient that the fourth 
 member shoidd orcUnarily sit and hear what was going on in the Home Depart- 
 ment of the Government, and that he should use the pajjors, but that he should 
 not give any opinion at all upon them unless requested to do so, as a special 
 matter, by his eoUeagiu-s. 
 
 1955. What occasion did }ou allude to, when you said that he was requested 
 to leave the Council r — l^pon one occasion Mr. Amos was requested to leave the 
 Council, ])y Lord Ellenborough, soon after his taking charge of the CJovern- 
 ment. 
 
 19,-, 6. W'as there any particular question under consideration at the time? — 
 I was not present in the Council when it occurred, tlierefore I can merely say 
 that such was the fact : I am stating it merely at second-hand. 
 
 19.57. Sir 7\ II. Mcuh/ork.] You have mentioned that the natives do now 
 exercise very considerable intlucnce over the legislation of the country. Can 
 you state any instances in which the natives have exercised any great influence 
 over the legislation of Bengal? — No, I am not prepared to state any instance ; 
 what I said was, that in every case in which their interests were concerned, they 
 appeared to me to exercise an influence over the legislation, or, at all events, 
 that they had opportunities of exercising an influence. 
 
 lO.-jS. There v.as an Act passed in the year 1850, No. 21, which you will 
 recollect -, do you consider that the Jiatives had any influence over the Legis- 
 lature in the passing of that Act ? — No ; I think that was one of the cases 
 where the native influence certainly hud little or no efl^ect ; or rather, v hen the 
 Act was passed contrary to the known general opinion of the natives. 
 
 i().lQ. Mr. EU/rc] What was that Act? — It was what has been popularly 
 called tlu' " Liberty of Conscience Act ;" it was an Act by which that portion of 
 the Hindoo law which deprived a man of his ancestral inheritance if he 
 chanaed his religion was abrogated. 
 
 i9tio. Sir ./. Hotjr/.'] Was not the Act to this effect, that no man should suff'er 
 the loss of his property on account of a change in his religious opinions ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 i()()i. Mr. Ellice.] Previously to the passing of that law was the property of 
 any native of a particular religion in India changing his religion confiscated 
 by the law : — It was forfeited. 
 
 1962. So that if he changed from the religion he had before professed, and 
 became a Christian, his property became forfeited '.' — Or if he became a Ma- 
 honiedai), or anything else ; if he ceased to be a Hindoo he forfeited his ances- 
 tral property ; he be(;anu', with regard to his ancestral property, as though he 
 were not. 
 
 1 963. Sir R. IL Ijif/I'us.^ In other words, his property went to the next of 
 kin t — Exactly. 
 
 1904. Sir 7\ II. 3I(i(I(I<icl:.] I have received, for the purpose of its being 
 presented to the House of Commons, a petition signed by .'),900 inhabitants of 
 Bengal, Baha, and Orissa, containing the names of a great number of persons 
 of wealth, rank, education, and intelligence, against that measure of the Govern- 
 ment, from which I nnist conceive that, as you have stated, the nati\ es had no 
 influence whatever over the Government in jiassing that Act ; would you 
 therefore still persist in the opinion that a Council should be formed for the 
 purpose of legislation, and that you would not admit natives to have any \oice 
 in the Council : — That case, to my mind, almost proves the necessity of keeping 
 natives out of the Council; this is one of those exceptional cases in which it is 
 desirable that native influence should not prevail, just as in the case when 
 suttee was abolished, against which 1 believe that a much more numerously 
 and respectably-signed petition was presented, and even legal measures were 
 taken by bringing it before; tlie Privy Council, in order to cause the law to be 
 abrogated. There will, in such a state of society as that of India, arise cases 
 
 0. 10. T 3 in
 
 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. I. Halliday, Esq. in which it is absolutely necessary to go bom fide contrary to the Hindoo and 
 
 ' "_ 1. Mahoniedan law, as has always been done, where those laws are contrary to 
 
 17 March 1853. simple justice and humanity. In this instance it is not denied, but rather 
 })lainlv stated, that this is legislating directly in the teeth of Hindoo law ; but 
 the Hindoo law, in that particular, was monstrous, and ought to be abrogated ; 
 of course the Hindoos, as a body, disapprove of the abrogation of such a law, 
 but that disapproval, if my view of the case be correct; makes for nothing 
 against this measure itself, but rather the contrary. 
 
 196,5. Do you consider the Legislatui-e were authorised to pass such an 
 Act^ notwithstandhig that the Act of Parliament which nave them legislative 
 power states that due regard shall be had to the distinctions of caste, difference 
 of religion, and to the manners and opinions prevaihng among the different 
 races in different parts of the territory P — I think so ; because if they had 
 continued such a custom, or such a law as that, they would have had an undue 
 regard to those prejudices and those laws. 
 
 I (Hio. In future what process would you suggest by which the opinions of 
 the natives should be gathered before you proceed to pass laws, in order that 
 some regard should be had to their opinions in passing laws ? — I have already 
 said that the opinion of the natives is usually gathered, and I have explained 
 the method in which, according to my experience, it is gathered, before passing 
 new laws. With regard to the particuhir law which has been mentioned, I 
 have no doubt at all that the opinion of the natives was very well known when 
 it was passed ; that there vias no defect in that respect ; there was no want of 
 knowledge of the opinions of the natives ; but there was a deliberate going 
 contrary to it, for what was thought a right purpose and object. 
 
 19(17. Was that not a departure from what you understand to be the prin- 
 ciple u])on which the British Government have rul(>d in India ? — I think not ; 
 I am not aware of any principle which would render it incumbent upon the 
 British Government to refrain from abrogating laws which are contrary to its 
 notions of justice and humanity. 
 
 1 968. Do you not consider that the Government was pledged, from tlie time 
 of Lord (.'ornwallis's regulations, in the different Acts of Parliament which have 
 been passed for the regulation of the Government of India, to maintain the 
 people of India in the enjoyment of their rites and laws ? — So far as those 
 rites and laws were, in their deliberate judgment, fit to be upheld, but no 
 further : there was no pledge that any absurdity or monstrosity of the Hindoo 
 or Mahomedan law should be upheld, but, on the contrary, wherever they have 
 been found, they have lieen abrogated without any scruple, both before the 
 abolition of suttee and since. 
 
 1 969. Do you consider it anything monstrous that, according to the Hindoo 
 law, the descent of ancestral projierty should be confined to ]iersons of the 
 Hindoo faith r — I do not consider it monstrous, according to the Hindoo law, 
 looking at it as a Hindoo ; but looking at it as a person not a Hindoo, it seems 
 to me to be a great outrage upon the right of private judgment and simple 
 justice in all such matters, and a thing which (jught to have been abrogated 
 before it was, and which, in fact, was abrogated long before that, 18 years 
 before the law of IH.'iO, to which allusion has been made, without any objec- 
 tion being made b}' the very persons who are now objecting to this law. A 
 law to the same effect was passed 18 years ago, and the peoj)le, xmtil this 
 moment, luitil an example was set them by Madras, never thought of crying 
 out against it. 
 
 1 070. Was that law, which was made 1 8 years ago, ever brought into force in 
 any single instance ? — Not to my knowledge : because not then, or since, in 
 Bengal, has any actual case arisen I'alliug for tlu' application of the law ; nor 
 is such a case likely to arise, except in very rare instances, for many years 
 to come. 
 
 1971. At the time of the passing of that law, 1 8 years ago, when Lord William 
 Bentinck was Governor-General of India, were any means taken to make 
 the people of Bengal accjuainted with the nature of the provisions of the law 
 before it was passed? — lam not aware what was done 18 years ago, Ijut I 
 know for certain that the natives of Bengal have been veiy well acquainted 
 with tiie law for 18 years; wiiat they knew of its probable coming before it 
 was j)assed, 1 cannot say. 
 
 1972. Are you aware that in their memorials, from the commencement, they 
 
 have
 
 SELECT COMjMITTKE ON INDIAN TEllRlTOKIES. i.',i 
 
 have stated that thvy were entirely ii>iu)raiit of the t( nor and tendency of the F.J. UaUiday,En 
 
 hvw passed in the time of Lord AViUiani Bentinek, or that they would have pro- 
 
 tested against it? — I cannot for a uioment helieve that that can be generally '7 March 1853. 
 true. At all events, I know for certain that one of the i)rincipal movers in this 
 petition from Bengal, if his name l)e not actuall} appended to it, was the well- 
 known Prosonno Cooniar Tagore. He was for many years the Company's vakeel 
 (which answers to attorney-general) at the Sudder Court, and is perhaps b(;tter 
 informed of statute law, that of India, than almost any other man of my 
 ac(|uaintance. It is quite notorious that he is at tiie bottom of the whole of 
 this movement, though he is no Hindoo himself, and openly laughs at every- 
 thing belonging tu liindooism, and though he has been thoroughly acquainted 
 with that and every other law, not for the last 18 years only, bui for the last 
 twice 18 years. 
 
 1973. Mr. Mamjles.] What is your opinion of tiie law passed in Lord 
 Wellesley's time, by which a Hindoo custom was interfered with by prohibiting 
 the throviing (children to the sharks and alligators at Saugur ? — 'Ihat very thing 
 was in my mind when I said that other laws abrogating practices enjoined by the 
 Hindoo religion had been passed both before and after the abolition of suttees; 
 but I mentioned suttees as more familiar, in the present day, to English ears. 
 That of course was a law which, in the present day, after the present method 
 of getting up memorials in Calcutta on these occasions, would no doubt itself 
 have been appealed against. It was a law, as far as I know, of precisely the same 
 character as the oiie now under discussion, and open to precisely the same 
 objections, namely, that it was directly contrar}' to the Hindoo law, as affecting 
 certain tribes and classes. 
 
 1074. Sir T. H. AJaddock.] You have alluded to the mediocrity if not the 
 absolute'incompetency of some of those olHcers holding iiigh situations as zillah 
 judges ; had all the perons who were liable to imputations of that nature been 
 removed from the situation of zillah and session judge previously to vour return 
 home? — No, I cannot say that all had, but they were in process of being 
 weeded out. 
 
 IQ75. Are there any such persons now judges of the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawiut ? — No, not such persons ;is I have in my mind ; there may be persons 
 ■whom I might wish to replace by better, but not such persons as I now 
 allude to. 
 
 1976. Has there not been considerable unpopularity amongst members of 
 the service caused by interfei'ence with the seniority system ? — No doubt it has 
 been distasteful to a number of the service. 
 
 1977. So that it was rendered difficult for the Governor of Bengal to select 
 for those situations those officers whom he, on his own judgment, would have 
 approved ? — Precisely. 
 
 1978. You have suggested that juries should be made use of in the admi- 
 nistration of justice ; do you propose that those jurymen should be paid } — No, 
 I do not. 
 
 1979. Do 3'ou propose that the judge should be compelled to emnannel a 
 jury, or only that he should be empowered to do so at his discretion r — That he 
 should be compelled. 
 
 1980. You have proposed to introduce the appointment of an English judge 
 to preside in the Sudder Dewanny Court ; if one were so appointed, do 5"ou 
 consider that it would be necessary to maintain also a distinct Supreme Court ? 
 — No, I have in view the abandonment of the Sujjreme Court and the creation 
 of another jurisdiction for Calcutta ; but that opens a subject with which I am 
 less acquainted than other witnesses. 
 
 1981. The salary of the session judge being 30,000 rupees a year, that is 
 3,000/., can you state, for the information of the Committee, what is the average 
 amount of the emoluments of a barrister hi the Supreme Court of Calcutta? 
 — They would be considerably greater than that. 
 
 0.10. 
 
 T4
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Veneris, IH" die Mr/rfii, 185:3. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT 
 
 Mr. Bavinsr. 
 
 Sir .lames W. Hossi'. 
 
 SirT. II. :*Li<lflock. 
 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 
 Mi. R.H.Clive. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Jlr. .lolin FitzGeruIil. 
 
 Mr. Laboiiciiere. 
 
 Sir R. II. Ini^lis. 
 
 Mr. iMaiiiilcs. 
 
 Mr. Card well. 
 
 Mr. Spooncr. 
 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 
 I\Ir. Hume. 
 
 jNlr. Edwnrd Eihce. 
 
 Sir George Grey. 
 
 Mr. l^owe. 
 
 Mr. Baillie. 
 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 
 Loid Siaiilev. 
 
 THOMAS BAlllXG, Esq. ix the Chair. 
 
 Fredrick Jduie.s IJaflidtn/, Esq., c:alU'd in ; and further Exaniinod. 
 
 J-'.J.nallid(ij/,'Esq. 19S2. Sir C. JFood.} IN your evidence yesterday, you suggested the possi- 
 
 ^ bility of a union of the Supreme Court with the Sudder Court ; will you have 
 
 18 March 18^;^. the goodness to state to th.e Committee ^vhat your views ;ire ujjou that jjoint ? 
 — I have not formed in ni)^ own mind an}' distinct idea as to the use of such an 
 amaliramation, with regard to that class of litigation which now goes on in the 
 Supremi' Court ; what I had in my mind was that with which I am most 
 familiar, the litigation which now goes on in the Sudder Court ; that I thought 
 would be very much benefited, the litigation of the country being benefited 
 too, and the whole judicial system improved, by the introduction of a more 
 regular system, if at the head of the Sudder Court permanently there were an 
 English judge. 1 have in my mind a notion of the possibilit}' of transferring 
 the litigation of the Supreme Court to the Sudder Court so constituted, having 
 a subordinate civil court for Calcutta itself there, to administer the English law, 
 in the sam.e manner as the Supreme Court docs now in Calcutta. 
 
 1083. Are the Committee to understand that your object would be to create 
 the highest court of ai)peal partly of the judges who are now appointed to the 
 Sudder Court, with the addition of an English judge? — Vly idea was that 
 there might be a supreme court of ap))eal for the whole presidency of Bengal, 
 including the Court of Calcutta, whatever that might be called, constituted as 
 I have supposed, namely, by an i'higlish judge as ])r('sident or chief of the 
 coui't, and as many civil servants of the Company, puisne judges of the court, 
 as might be found requisite ; also, as I added, by the addition of one carefully 
 selected and sufficiently ])aid native. .My idea eertaiidy is that such a court 
 might witii advantage hear a])peals from all the courts in the presidency in 
 which it might be; placed, including, of course, courts administering the 
 English law, as well as the courts administering the law of the Company's- 
 government. 
 
 1084. 1 jiresume you would jjropose to have a civil court in each of the 
 other proidencies r — rndoubtediy that was my idea ; but I wish generally tO' 
 be understood as speaking rather of the presidenc} with which I am familiar 
 than of any other ; though 1 may have my own opinion as to the a])plicability 
 of any (if my suggestions to the other ])resideiieies of which 1 know less. 
 
 iijb.',. You conceive that tln' result would be an inq)rovementin the adininis- 
 tration of justice in India, so far as that can he ett'ected by the establishment 
 of a eoint of appeal of a higher deserijjtion ? — I think so: I think it wouhi 
 bring into harmony tl.e administration of tin- two systems. I think, probaldy, 
 the teelrnit al l.a])its of the English judge would be corrected by the more 
 Indian system and habits of his colleagues; and on the other hand the looser 
 notions of the Indian judges would receive very advantageous correction from 
 the more regular education and legal turn of mind of the Enghsh judge ; and 
 
 in
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURnORIES. 153 
 
 in that wa}- the judicial administration of tlic country would gradually receive i:j.lhilliiiny,i:'.';. 
 
 very imjiortant improvements. The chief judge of the Supreme Court being 
 
 generally responsible, together with his colleagues, for the management of the 18 Marcii t3.:,j. 
 whole. 
 
 1981 1. In that court \-ou woulil also j)lace a carefull}* selected native judge r 
 — I would. 
 
 10S7. Sir/. Ilogg.] Is it your opinion that a court so constituted, of an 
 English judge and some of the superior judges in the Company's service, should 
 be a court of tinal appeal r — I certainly think the appeal to the Privy Council 
 is of no nal advantage to the administration of justice in India. 
 
 u)S8. It is your oi)inion that there should be in India a court of final appeal - 
 — It is my opinion. 
 
 108(1. What is the law now administered in the Mofussil in the Company's 
 courts, both civil and criminal ? — In civil cases the law is the law of the parties, 
 the INIahomedan law, or the Hindoo law, or the law of the Parsees or Armenians, 
 as the case nsa}' be, modified and in the matter of ])rocedure altogether guided 
 by the Company's Acts and Regulations ; their statute law in fact. 
 
 I i)po. The law of the defendant ? — The law of the defendant where they 
 differ ; in criminal cases the law of })rocedure is also that of the Company's 
 statutes, and the substantive law is the Mabomedan law very much altered and 
 amended !)}• the Company's regidations, so that though nominally Mabomedan, 
 it has, in fact, little or nothing peculiar to jMahomedanism left in it, but is a 
 very fair and sensible criminal code applicable to practical purposes, in the 
 administration of which no real difficulty has yet been found. 
 
 1091. Was not a criminal or penal code prei)ared by Mr. Macaula}' during 
 the time he was Legislative Member cf the Council ? — By the Law Commission 
 (luring Mr. ^lacaulay's tenure of office as Member of the Council and President 
 of the Law Commission. 
 
 J 992. When that code was prepared by the Lav.- Commission, its conside- 
 ration was referred to the princii)al legal authorities, both in Her Majesty's 
 courts, and in the Company's courts, was it not r — It was. 
 
 1993. And to those authorities at the different presidencies : — Yes. 
 
 1904. Although that code was prepared by the application of the greatest 
 talent and the greatest learning, was not there a great diversity of opinion as to 
 the safety of introducing it at once as prepared .' — There was a great diversity of 
 opinion as to the practicability of introducing it precisely as prepared by the 
 Law" Commissioners, a diversit}" of opinion which I believe still exists. 
 
 1 995. Practically, was not the result of all the refei-ences that the code 
 underwent such changes as that it could scarcely be said to have preserved its 
 identity ? — So far as the thing has hitherto gone, the result of the revision which 
 has been given to the code has been to change its appearance altogethei', so 
 that it is scarcely to be recognised as the code presented by the Law Commis- 
 sioners in i\Ir. Macaulay's time, and it has even acquired popularly another 
 name, being now called the Bethune Code. 
 
 1996. Those revisions took place by the different Law Commissioners, did 
 not they r — I can hardly say that. The comments and remarks of the various 
 authorities upon the code were submitted to the Law Commissioners, who 
 digested them, and re-submitted them to the Government, with their own 
 observations, and with certain suggestions for the improvement of the code, 
 arising out of those commentaries ; but the revison and change in point of 
 form and character, of which I have been speaking, which has given the code 
 the name of the Bethune Code, was not made by the Law Commission at all, 
 but bv the Legislative Council of India during the time that ^Ir. Bethune was 
 a member of it. 
 
 1907. It would of course be ver}' desirable to have both the civil and criminal 
 law of India reduced to a code, either as it is or with amendments r — No doubt, 
 so far as codification is practicable in the circumstances of tin- country. 
 
 109S. Are there as good indices and abridgments of the Company's regula- 
 tions, as there are of the statute law at home ? — There are veiy com])lete digests 
 and abridgments, and indices. There is no difficulty in jjutting your hand 
 upon au\ jjart of the Company's law, or even upon any of the constructions of 
 the law which have been froni time to time given in tlu' difierent courts. They 
 have been very fvdly digested, so that reference to them is one of the easiest 
 things in the world. 
 
 0.10. U u)Oi). However
 
 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. J. Hallidai/, Es(i. ^999- However desirable improvement would be, is it your opinion that the 
 
 law, civil and criminal, now in existence in the Company's territories if fairly 
 
 J 8 March 1853. administered, is a law which affords substantial justice to the people of India r 
 — Undoubtedly ; if well administered, it is capable of affording substantial jus- 
 tice to the people, and it does afford it when so administered. 
 
 2000. Admitting, as in a sjreat system you must, extensive exceptions, is it 
 your opinion that substantial justice, civil and military, is now practically ad- 
 ministered to the people of India : — Subject to the limitations and exceptions 
 of which I have spoken in other parts of my evidence, I must answer that ques- 
 tion undoubtedly in the affirmative ; substantial justice, I think, is administered. 
 
 2001. Mr. FJlire.] Is the impression upon the minds of the natives of India 
 generally, that the law as it is, is impartially and honestly administered by the 
 authorities who administer it ? — Speaking of the native courts, that is to say, 
 the courts presided over by natives, without desiring to attribute to them faults, 
 I nuist say that at present, owing to the long experience of the natives of the 
 corruptibility of their own countrymen, and their great want of confidence in 
 them as compared with the confidence they have acquired in the Europeans, 
 there is not generally in the minds of the natives such a complete reliance 
 upon the impartiality and incorruptibility of the courts under native judges as 
 could be wished ; liut I believe it will grow up in the course of time, especi- 
 ally as the courts themselves, within my observation and knowledge, have 
 manifestly improved in regard to integritj^ and trustworthiness, and as the 
 natives see and know them to improve, their suspicions of course will be lulled, 
 and they will gradually acquire in them the same confidence that they have in 
 the courts jn-esided over b}' Englishmen. 
 
 2002. Have they complete confidence in the administration of justice in those 
 courts by the English judges r — As far as regards the integrity of the judi^es 
 their confidence is complete ; they have little or no notion of the possibility of 
 corrupting an English judge; it scarcely ever enters into their imagination ; 
 they may, perhaps, have sometimes a different opinion as to the acuteness and 
 intelligence of some of the judges, and I dare say that, as compared with the 
 acuteness and intelligence of the native judges, those qualities in the English 
 judges are often in the minds of the natives at fault ; but in the integrity and 
 in the honest and earnest desire to do justice impartially between man and 
 man of the English judges, the natives have the highest possible confidence. 
 
 2003. Mr. Hi(me.\ Can you state, looking to the whole judicial system in 
 Bengal, what is the proportion of cases tried by those native courts as to which 
 you state the opinion is not so favourable ? — In matters of figures 1 would 
 rather refer to a memorandum which I have here. These were the suits insti- 
 tuted in 18.50, in the several classes of courts, independently of appeals, and 
 comprising original suits onlv ; before l'",nglish judges 93 : before the principal 
 sudder amins 546, those are chiefly natives ; before the sudder amins, also 
 chiefly natives, 1.670; before moonsifs, almost all natives, 84,081. 
 
 2004. Sir J. ll(>(j(f.] Witli respect to the court of appeal which you .spoke 
 of constituting at Calcutta, would not you so constitute that court as to be a 
 court of appeal from all the courts in all the presidencies in India?— It cer- 
 tainly did not enter into my ideas that a court in Calcutta could well be 
 constituted a court of appeal from the whole of India ; I think that would be 
 an atte:!!i)t at too much centrahzation, and tliat the conchict of appeals in 
 Calcutta from Madras and Bombay and the interior of those presidencies, would 
 be a matter of very great difficulty ; even more so now-a-days than if the 
 appeal were to England. 
 
 2()(),'5. Mr. ]lnme.\ Will you state your reasons for that opinion ? — My reasons 
 are, simply, the immense distance and the difference of nationality ; for an 
 inliabitant of Bonil)ay to I'ome to Calcutta differs very little from an inhabitant 
 of Bombay coining to England. 
 
 2006. Sir lA. Hofjg.\ The parties do not personally attend upon appeal? — 
 They do not, but tiiey recpiire to know something of the place and the people 
 where the appeal is carried on ; they nuist have agents, and it is well that they 
 should have, which they largely use, the power of attc^nding if they desire it. 
 It is a fact tliat the p:u-ties do frequently attend in Calcutta before the Sudder 
 Court to look after their own appeals from the interior ; and it is quite obvious 
 that a court of ai)peal, situated where the parties can watch its proceedings, 
 instead of being situated at an tmrittainable distance, must be much more 
 
 popular
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 1,5.5 
 
 l)oj)ular and acceptable, and much more advantageous to the people and to the F.J.HulUda^,Esq. 
 adniinistrution of justice. 
 
 2(107. Is it your opinion that tht- necessity for legislation should be consi- ^^ March 1853. 
 dered, and that legislation for India should take place in India or in this 
 countiy ? — In India, undoubtedly ; I speak of the act of Legislation. 
 
 20()S. The question refers not only to the act of Legislation but the necessity 
 for legislative measures r— I iidoui)tedly, laws should be originated, and 
 discussed, and digested, and matured, and passed in India. 
 
 •20()(). And the necessit}' for laws, or the occasion of enacting them, considered 
 in India? — Yes; it is possible to imagine exceptions, but they do not immedi- 
 ately occur to me. 
 
 20 1 o. I collect from you that it is your opinion that the Legislative Council, 
 extended as you suggest, would be fully competent to consider and to enact all 
 the laws and all the improvements in the existing laws requisite for the good 
 government of India ?^ — Undoubtedly. 
 
 201 1. Mr. Hume.] Do you say so, abiding by the opinion you have formerly 
 given, that it would not be proper for natives to form any part of that Council ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 2012. You stated in your evidence that you visited Ceylon, and had an 
 opportunity of inquiring into the state of the Government there ; did you ascer- 
 tain how far the natives, Cingalese and others, were admitted as members of 
 the Government and of the different institutions there r — I said nothino- al)out 
 having inquu-ed into the nature of the Government ; I spoke of inquiring into 
 the administration of justice in the courts there ; I know nothing worth speaking 
 about of the nature and circumstances of the Government of Ceylon. 
 
 2013. You stated that members of the Legislature in India, there being no 
 natives in the Legislature, could obtain information by reference to natives out 
 of the Council ? — They can and do very largely ; I do not mean that the mem- 
 bers of the Legislature themselves largelj' consult the natives ; they do not 
 do so. 
 
 2014. By what means does the Legislative Council become aware of the 
 feelings and opinions of the natives ? — The members of the Legislative Council 
 as at piesent constituted, at least an important portion of them, have passed 
 through important offices in the country, and they have passed their lives, in 
 fact, iu that way. By that means they have had many opportunities of know- 
 ing tlie feelings of the natives upon public questions. They do not debar 
 themselves from consulting the natives personally, far from it, though they do 
 not largely exercise that privilege ; but they have the means, as 1 explained 
 befure, of acquiring a knowledge of the minds of the natives upon any point 
 upon which they wish for information, through their subordinate officers, the 
 executive administrators in the interior ; and they always do so by correspon- 
 dence, before passing any important law. 
 
 201 5. Do you consider it preferable, in matters of legislation, that those who 
 are to legislate should receive information from subordinate officers instead of 
 applying directly to the natives, who must be best qualified themselves to give 
 it ? — Speaking as of an al)stract question, of course direct information is better 
 than indirect ; and it is always better to obtain information at first hand than 
 at second hand ; I speak of the practicabiUty of doing the one or the other, 
 and I have endeavoured to explain that in my opinion it is impractica!)le at 
 present for the Council to obtain the opinions of the natives on legislative 
 matters at first hand, and that they can only do it with safety, if at all, at second 
 hantl. 
 
 20 1(). In what way is it impracticable, seeing that the Council can ascertain 
 who are the best informed of the natives, both Hindoos and Mussulmen r — 
 Suppose, for example, a question such as was actually pending when I left 
 India arises, a measure for irrigation and for impro\ing the land revenue of 
 Bombay. The opinions of the natives, regarding that question would be the 
 opinions of the agriculturists of the Bombay districts ; it does not occur to 
 me how it is possible for the Legislative Council, sitting in Calcutta, or even if 
 it sat at Bombay, to obtain i)ersonally the opinions of the agricvdtiu-ists of the 
 Deccan upon the working of a legislative measure of that description. That 
 is merely an instance of what constandy occurs. 
 
 2017. Suppose a Hindooor a Musselman were a member of the Legislative 
 Council, would not he be the best medium through which information should 
 
 0,10. u 2 be
 
 15b MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 r.J.Uc/zidai/, Esq. be communicated to the Council from the class of persons in the country wiiom 
 
 you speak of ; Avould not that be better than leaving the Council without any 
 
 iS March 1853. certain channel of communication? — 1 think almost any man experienced in 
 India would ?av that you could not have a more dangerous or a more fallible 
 method of obtaining the opinions of any class of the natives than by selecting 
 and exalting one member of that class and constituting him the sole means of 
 communication with his fellows. 
 
 20 iS. "What would be the danger ? — The danger would be, first, that the 
 mere exaltation of one man, even if he had in all things an honest purpose, 
 which he might probably not have, and which certainly would never be imputed 
 to him bv his fellows, would create great jealousy ; there would be great 
 division and separation arising out of the mere fact of his elevation, and there 
 would be little feeling in common between him and the mass of his class, or 
 in fact anv, except a very small clique, or perhaps a small family depending 
 upon him, and this difference and separation would increase the longer he re 
 mained in a situation of power : besides that, it is almost impossible to con- 
 ceive of any one native, iVJahomedan or Hindoo, capable of representing the 
 opinions of any large or influential class : the Mahoniedan, for example, if 
 selected in Calcutta might, by a great stretch, be supposed to represent honestly 
 and fairly, and to the satisfaction of those who are under him, for tiiat is the 
 important matter, the opinions of the Mahoniedans of Calcutta, or even of 
 Bengal ; but I have no hesitation in saying that he would not even do that ; 
 even, however, if he did, that he would be very far from being a representative 
 of the opinions of the Mahomedans anyw'iere but in Bengal, he would know 
 very little about them ; he would differ from them in even matters of religion, and 
 tipon questions which excite the most violent animosity and hatred, far sur- 
 l)assing any supposed animosity which exists between Mahomedans and 
 Christians ; so that unless you aim at a system of representation which shall 
 give )'ou a native from almost every class, caste, and tribe, and from every 
 division and district of the country, }'on could never obtain in the manner sup- 
 posed by the question anything like a safe guide to the opinions of the natives 
 from natives sitting themselves in the Council. 
 
 21) ig. Do you consider that the natives in general would feel any jealousy in 
 seeing one of their countrymen ])laeed in a situation where he might offer an 
 opinion on laws which were about to be passed affecting their liberties and their 
 pro))ertv ? — I am sorry to say that there is a very strong tendency amongst the 
 natives to regard with un;q)peasable jealousy, amounting to animosity, any 
 member of their own class raised abo^'e themselves, especially among the 
 natives of Bengal, with whom I am most familiar. I will give a recent instance 
 of it, which was very well known in Calcutta at the time I left. Lord Dalhousie 
 took what was considered one of the boldest steps-towards the advancement of the 
 natives which had been taken for man}' years, namely, the careful selection and 
 appointment of one of the \ ery best of them ; a man against whom his fellows 
 coidd not i)ossibly utter one word of accusation or reproach. He was a Hin- 
 doo of high cas!e and high family, who had borne an irreproachable and 
 unrei)roaclied name in the pnbhc service for many years. This man. Lord 
 Dalhousie, very mucli to the annoyance of a great number of English claimants, 
 and particularly to the annoyance of the English bar, who were candidates at 
 the same time for the office of which I am about to speak, appointed as stipen- 
 diary magistrate of Calcutta. He had on that occasion to sustain, not only 
 the very loudly expressed anger of the English claimants, but the still more 
 loudly expressed annoyance of the natives ; and the natives exhibited in so 
 many ways their jealousy and dissatisfaction wirh this a|ip{)intmcnt. arising 
 simply out of the fact of this man being placed over their heads, that he re- 
 ])eatedly came to me, and to other friends, to complain of the bitterness of his 
 ])osition, and the pain and misery which had been brought upon him by the 
 c(mstant attacks, public and private, and the annoying jjctty jealousy which he 
 had ex])erienced from his countrymen in conse([uence of his elevation. I be- 
 lieve that is merelv an instani-e of wliat is apt to occur, in Bengal at all events, 
 and i am afraid iii other parts of India, whenever anything of the kind is done. 
 I wish to ^uard myself from being supi)osed to say that that is regarded as a 
 reason for not elevating the natives. The cmitrary is shown by that very case 
 in wlii(rh such elevation was nuide, though it was well known beforehand what 
 would be the consequence. 
 
 2020. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 1.57 
 
 2U20. You are aware that there is no eoiuparisou between a seat hi the /'.././/a//iV/ay, E^j. 
 Couneil, where mere advice wouhl he iiiveii, and a seat on the Bench, wiiere 
 tlie man becomes a criminal judge ? — The greater the elevation, the greater the j8 March i8.-;3. 
 jealousy, in my opinion. 
 
 i!0'ii. You mentioned before that you considered It objt'ctionablc to place 
 a native in jjower in the Council ; what power would he have further tlian the 
 right of advising as one of a dozen nu'ml)ers of whom the Council might 
 consist r — I do not think I ever stated that it was objcetionaljle to place a 
 native in the Council ; what I did say was, that I did not think you could in 
 that wav obtain an\' fair representation of the opinions of the people, and that 
 it was better obtained in other ways at present. 
 
 ■202}'*. Suppose it were determined to place in the Council a Hindoo from 
 the lower provinces, one fi'om the Benares district, and one from the Western 
 district, the number of the Council being increased to admit of tliat proportion, 
 would vour objection stand as strcmg to the representation of those different 
 (hstricts as it now stands to the admission of a single native from Bengal 
 alone: — I repeat, thar a Hindoo from Bengal would not represent the opinions, 
 nor coidd you gain safely from him the ojnnions of the Hindoos of Bengal. 
 The most you could do would be to obtain from him the opinions of his par- 
 ticular class or party. The parties in Bengal are split into very small and 
 curious divisions, and they quarrel violently one with the other. Perhaps the 
 representative from Benares, if a learned Brahmin, might represent the pundits 
 of that part of the country, but he would represent nothing else ; and so on of 
 all the districts. 
 
 2022. Are the Committee to understand that a representation by natives of 
 the wishes of the Hindoos generally is not practicable .' — It is not practicable 
 in the manner to which I understood the question to allude. 
 
 2023. As regards Mussulmans, do you consider, looking to the large propor- 
 tion of the Mussulman population in the country now under the Company's 
 government, that a Mussulman of high rank and good attainments mi^ht not, 
 with advantage, be appointed as a member of the Legislativ*^ l.'ouncil, seeing 
 that the duty of that Council is to pass laws for the whole of India: — 1 see the 
 same reasons against it that I have explained in the case of the Hindoos ; the 
 ease differs very little ; Mahomedans are almost as much divided. A Maho- 
 medan gentleman in the upper provinces looks with the greatest contempt upon 
 a Mahomedan of the Bengal provinces, and so of other jiarts ; besides that you 
 have divisions in matters of religion and tribe among the ^lahomedans to almost 
 as great an extent as the divisions among the Hindoos. 
 
 2024.. Mr. Loiri'.^ Y'ou have told the Committee, and it is a very gratif\ing 
 thing to heai-, that the natives never think of the possibility of corrupting an 
 Enghsh judge : — Scarcely ever. 
 
 2025. Y'ou are aware that it is on record, by the Governor in Council at 
 Bombay, that there is a very prevalent belief in the corruptibility of English 
 political officials, and we have a paper before us in which an attempt to eradicate 
 that belief is treated as absolutely Quixotic : how can you account for that 
 difference in the estimation of the native of the two services ? — In the first place 
 1 do not speak of Bombay at all ; I speak of that part of the country which 
 I know myself, and where I believe there is as little notion of corrupting political 
 officers as judicial officers. I can cpiite understand that carelessness and indis- 
 cretion, without any real corruption, on the part of political officers, may very 
 soon induce the notion of their corruptii)ility ; besides which there is this im- 
 portant difference, the judicial off.cers are placed among ovu- own people, and 
 are constantly dealing with them, and our own people, by long exi)erience, have 
 formed their own opinion, upon good grounds, of the natiu'e of their character, 
 but the political officers are placed in foreign territories. 
 
 2026. Mr. Macaulay's penal code was finished in 183/, was not it? — In 1838. 
 
 2027. The alterations which have been spoken of and the comments upon it 
 were in 1848 : — The last revision of it was in 1818, but the connnents run over 
 the whole period between those two yeai's. 
 
 2028. The revision was in 1848 .- — Yes. 
 
 2029. ^\'ill you tell the Committee what was done in the intervening 10 
 years ? — I do not think I know very well w hat was done, except what I have 
 stated, that the comments of the various officers consulted, were referred to 
 the Law Commission, and were by them digested and resubmitted to the 
 
 0.10. u 3 Government,
 
 158 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 18 March 1853. 
 
 F. J. Halliday, Esq. Government, with additional remarks, and suggestions, and amendments of 
 their own. 
 
 2030. I understood you to say that the Law Commission failed in what was 
 anticipated of it, not so much from its own fault as from the want of time 
 and aptitude on the part of the Legislature of India to deal with the questions 
 whicli were submitted to them? — Not wholly from want of time and aptitude, 
 but from want of a harmony between the body who framed the laws, and 
 the bodies who were to pass them, involving no doubt some want of aptitude 
 and some want of time. 
 
 •2031. You are of opinion that the Legislative Council, framed as you propose, 
 would be able to deal with such questions, as the Law Commission might bring 
 before it ? — If constituted as I propose. 
 
 2032. That is, with a member from each presidency, and a judge of the 
 Supreme Court ? — A judge of the Supreme Court, a judge of the Sudder Court, 
 members of the Revenue Board, certain secretaries to the government, and a 
 legal member selected in England ; that is to say, the present fourth ordinary 
 member of Council. 
 
 2033. Do you think such a body would have leisure from its other occupa- 
 tions, most of its members being otherwise employed, to attend to any compli- 
 cated questions, such as are involved in a code for all India ? — I think they 
 would. The truth of the matter is, that legislation in India very generally 
 emanates from, and is originally prepared by, those very men whom 1 propose 
 to introduce into the Legislative Council. It is the fact that the present laws 
 regarding the revenue department are mostly pi'epared, and even drafted, in the 
 Board of Revenue. What I desire is, that some member of this or that Board 
 who knows what is wanted, and who has the chief hand, even now, in drafting 
 the laws for the consideration of the Legislative Council, should not see a law 
 shelved, as he does now, for want of some one to look after it, but should be 
 there to look after it himself. 
 
 2034. With regard to the union of the Sudder and Supreme Courts of India, 
 do you propose that the amalgamated court should administer, as the highest 
 court of appeal, all the different laws now existing in India ? — Cei'tainly. 
 
 2035. Do you think that it would be a competent tribunal for such a purpose? 
 — The Sudder Court now does administer all the laws prevailing in India, 
 except the English law. 
 
 21)36. Taking it as a court to administer English law, would it be a satis- 
 factory triljunal to decide difficult questions of English law ? — 1 would rather 
 that that question was answered by a person conversant with the Enghsh 
 law. 
 
 2037. Was not the system which you described, by which justice was ad- 
 ministered according to the law of the defendant, a system fraught with great 
 evils and luicertainties ; take the case of the Armenians for instance? — I am 
 well aware of the difficulties which are alluded to ; they have been pointed out 
 in the report by the Law Commission upon what was called the Lea; Loci Act ; 
 they are there stated much more learnedly and forcibly than I can state them ; 
 they do no doubt exist. 
 
 2038. You agree with the report ? — I do. 
 2().',Q. Taking such a question as the lev fori, do you think the Legislature, 
 
 framed as you contemjjlate, would be able to deal with that question r — Yes : 
 and it would have settled it by this time. 
 
 2040. With regard to tlic education of judicial officers, are the Committee to 
 understand you to say that \ou do not j^ropose any division of the service, but 
 you would still keep the revenue and judicial branches together .' — Yes. 
 
 2041 . 1 low do }ou propose that a person wlio is to serve in the judicial office, 
 shall obtain a knowledge of the law, and the rules of evidence ? — I have pro- 
 posed that before he enters the service at all, he shall devote more time, and 
 devote it more effectually than is now done, to the ac(|uiring a knowledge of 
 law ; and I have also proposed that the otliee of registrar, or assistant judge, 
 should l)e revived, in which, I suppose, an opportunity would be afforded of 
 goiuir on from tlic knowh-dge which the judge liad iiecpiired up to that time to 
 still furtlier attainments ; I am not supposing that the system I [iropose is a 
 perfect one, but it is the best that the circumstances admit of. 
 
 2042. Y(m would ])rop()sc that all persons going into the East India Com- 
 pany's service should acquire that knowledge of the law which you deem 
 
 sufficient
 
 SELECT CO-MMITIEK ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. i/jg 
 
 sufficient to qualify a man to be a ju{lji:e, \vith the practice of the duties of F.J.Haliiday.E%^. 
 
 registrar superadded: — I think tliere would be no harm in it. 
 
 •JO43. Would not there be this harm, that a man who did not know whether i^ March i«53. 
 he would ever want this particular knowledge, the law being a dry and re))\dsive 
 subject, would be ver\- likely not to give that attention to it which he would do 
 if he knew he was going to practise in that particular department afterwards ? 
 — According to my plan none ])ut a very small section of the service, that section, 
 for example, devoted to diplomatic duties, and duties of that kind, would be in 
 anv such situation as not to require a know ledge of the law ; they must serve in 
 some judicial office ; therefore, all that can be said is, that you might allow 
 persons who did not choose to qualify themselves in the manner proposed for 
 the judicial office if there were such, to waive it altogether and serve in other 
 branches ; but thej^ would cut themselves off from so much that it is not likely 
 that many would take advantage of such a permission. 
 
 2044. How would you guard against that which is so loudly complained of 
 now. that the judicial office is made a kind of cushion for people to repose on 
 who are not fit for very efficient service iu other offices r — I have stated that, 
 particularly as regards Bengal, I do not admit that to be the case, but wher- 
 ever it occurs it is a defect and mischief arising from mal-administration. You 
 must trust to such incitements to a good administration of the government 
 as } ou can invent or apjjly to ensure good administration, instead of mal- 
 admi nistration. 
 
 2044.* Do not you think that it is inhei-ent in the system of mixing- up exe- 
 cutive and judicial duties in the same service, that the immediate interest of 
 the Government being more concerned with the performance of executive than 
 of judicial duties, the Government ma}' postpone one to the other, and rather 
 seek out the ablest men for the executive than for the judicial departments, 
 so that the system will necessarily work to deteriorate the judicial service ? — 
 That appears to me to be a supposition more plausible than true. The Govern- 
 ment is only in a very low sense chiefly concerned with the collection of the 
 revenue, rather than v.ith the sound administration of justice ; and such a 
 Government as we are likely, I hope, usually to have in India, would have great 
 pride, and therefore a great interest, a motive perhaps even greater there than 
 anvthing else, to obtain credit for the effective administration of justice ; so 
 that 1 think, on the whole, the objection would not usually exist, or need not 
 exist. 
 
 2045. A large number of the gentlemen now serving in judicial appoint- 
 ments have served the office of registrar, have not they? — No, I think very 
 few ; I think I myself was one of the latest who served as registrar. 
 
 2046. Your opinion is, that the abolition of that office has tended to lower 
 the standard of qualification, that those who came to the judicial seat without 
 having served that office would be worse judges than those who had served it i 
 — I must say that tilings have been cutting both ways ; on the one hand, the 
 abolition of the registrarship no doubt, pro tanto, has diminished the efficiency 
 of the judges at the time they came to the Bench, but on the other hand, 
 before that it was not usual for the judges to pass through the revenue 
 department, and evils were found to arise out of that system ; so that though 
 you have lost by the aboliticn of the registrarship on the one hand, }"ou have 
 gained by passing your judges through the revenue department on the 
 other. 
 
 2047. You stated, on a former day, that serving in the office of a collector, 
 who had really ijuasi judicial functions to perform, was a good jjreparation for 
 serving on the judicial bench ; does a collector, in the administration of his 
 functions, have recourse to any regularity of proceeding or practice, or is it 
 all done in the sort of off-baud wa}' in which people transact ordinar)' liUsiness. 
 Does he call the people regularly before him .' — It is quite as regular, perhaps 
 even more regular, than the administation of justice in a summary small cause 
 court. He calls the parties before him ; he has even their vaket;ls or advocates ; 
 he has the witnesses regularly summoned and examined before the parties ; he 
 refers to the documents : he draws up written decisions, ami all he does is 
 subject to a very strict and prompt appeal ; besides that there is either an 
 understood or an expressed form and mode of procedure in the collectors" offices 
 in the revenue department, to which all the collectors endeavour to conform 
 themselves. 
 
 o. io. u 4 •i'048. Supposing
 
 l(>0 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JF. J. Ualliday, Esq. 
 18 March 1853. 
 
 legal instruction 
 
 then to let them go through a 
 
 12048. Supposing the Government were not to adopt your suggestion, but 
 were to set apart a number of writers or persons going to India for the judicial 
 service, to keep them in England for a year or two longer, under some regular 
 were then to send them out to acquire languages in India, 
 certain training in the Collector's Office as you 
 suggest, and then to place tlieiu in the office of registrar, would not that be a 
 more efficient system for making them good judges than the one jou recom- 
 mend ? — That is almost the same as the one I recommend. 
 
 ■2040- The person in that case Wduld know, while he was in England, that he 
 was to be a judge ? — You would have this great dilHculty ; after all, educate them 
 as you will, you would find some persons not qualified for executing judicial 
 duties' when jou came to try them. You would perplex your own administra- 
 tion without doing any real good. 
 
 2050. Would not it be a great good to have grounded those men in the prin- 
 ciples of law r — I have expressly said that I wish all men destined for the civil 
 service to be grounded in the i)rinciples of law. 1 think it would be a great 
 good. 
 
 2051. Vou think they would acquire that without having necessarily the 
 prospect of ever being so employed ? — I endeavoured to explain that the greater 
 part of them, according to my plan, would know that of necessity they must pass 
 through the judicial office : but you might allow jiersons to avoid serving in a 
 judicial office if they thought fit not to pass through the necessary course of 
 instruction, only they Avould thereby cut themseh'cs off from so many advan- 
 tages, that it is not likely they would claim the indulgence. 
 
 2052. Y'ou contemplate that the judicial office should not be the ultimate 
 result, but a stepping-stone to some other office ? — Y'es. 
 
 2053. Sir Z?. 11. Iin/Ji.'--.] You spoke strongly in the early ])art of your ex- 
 amination as to the confidence that the natives entertain in the integrity and 
 incorruptibilit}' of the English jadges ; will you be pleased to state to the Com- 
 mittee whether such an opinion be founded upon negative evidence ; that is, on 
 the absence of complaint, or upon direct personal communication between 
 yourself and them, as to such their confidence r — Both. Actual complaints of 
 corruption against Europeans are extremely rare, and I know from constant inter- 
 course Mith the natives, from the verj' conmiencement of my service in India, 
 down TO a very recent period, that they look upon the incorruptibility of an 
 Englishman, his truthfulness, and integrity generallv as something quite by itself. 
 
 20-;4. Is there any difficulty on the part of any native in making a complaint, 
 either publicly through the press, or officially to any authority, with respect to 
 corruption which he may allege to exist on the part of any official person r — 
 Not the smallest. 
 
 2055. Are there public meetings held frequently, in which any native might 
 express any c;omi)laint ? — There is no interference with any holding of public 
 meetings, where natives or any other persons may desire to assemble ; the 
 natives may comnnmicate with the press either openly or secretly, and they 
 may lodge any accusation they choose against a public officer before the 
 constituted tribunals, and it is immediately taken notice of. The fact is, as 
 regards the service generally, there is a great jealousy anumg its members of 
 their character for integrity and incorruptibility, and so far from sliielding one 
 another, they are r.ather apt to fall like wolves upon any man who lowers the 
 character of the service by bringing accusations upon himself ; he is certain 
 not to escape. 
 
 20.36. Mr. Cohdni.j I understood you to say that there wei'c two objections 
 in your mind to the natives becoming menibers of the Legislative Councii ; 
 first, that they were not fitted for the ])Ost, and next that they would not have 
 the confidence of their fellow coimtrymen .' — I said nothing about their not 
 being fitted ; it is my opinion that fitness for the Legislative Coiuunl among 
 tlie natives is a very rare thing : not absolutely that it does not exist ; I do 
 know persons who are quite as fit, or nearly so, to sit in the Legislative Coimcil 
 as any Englislnnan of my acciuaintance. 
 
 2057. Is the difficulty an intellectual or a moral one, by which tliey are 
 incapacitated for such a high and responsible office .- — I have in my mind both 
 «liffi(;ultics, but chiefly the intellectuai difficulty ; they are not sufficiently 
 instructed; the truth of the matter is that, with very rare exceptions, which 
 are mostly produced by ourselves, the natives are still in the saine state of 
 
 ignorance,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURTI OKIES. i6i 
 
 ignorance, and I fear I may say corruption, at all events, low state of civilisa- /'. .'. Hulli'iiy, 
 tion, in which we found them. Esq. 
 
 2058. I understood you to say, in your former examination, that you thoufrlit ."T, ,~ 
 the natives, if ai)pointed to the office of legislative couueillors, would be open ' ^f' ' ' •'>■'• 
 to the influence of intriguers, and other impure influences ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 2059. Your main difficulty is a moral one in that respe(;t: — In that respect 
 it is ; I have a moral difficulty as well as an intellectual ditliculty, but my chief 
 difficulty is the intellectual one. 
 
 2()(h). Has that moral difficulty been found an insuperable bar to natives 
 filling the office of judge? — For many years it was, if not an insupenitjle bar, 
 felt to be a very great difficulty and hinderance in our path ; we are only now 
 beginning to hope we are overcoming it. By constant perseverance in the 
 best means we can think of, some of which have yet to be applied, such as 
 giving a still higher inducement to good condiu;t, we have succeeded in im- 
 pi'oving the moral character of those natives whom we have taken in hand from 
 the commencement, and trained almost through life for judicial employment in 
 our service, but it has been very up-hill work : it is thought by many to have 
 been only partially successful, and it requires the greatest possible care and 
 observation, and must do so for some time to come. 
 
 2061. In the first appointment of natives to the office of a judge, having a 
 salary of GOO /. a yenr, was it in the first instance difficult to find men nun-ally 
 and intellectually qualified to fill that office ■ — There was a very great difficulty ; 
 and more than that, during the greater portion of the early years of the exjje- 
 riment the native judges were, I am sorry to say, notoriously corrupt. J'.ven 
 now the moonsifi's, the lower class of judges, are only partially emerging from 
 the imputation of corruption, which has so long hung over the whole body, and 
 that by slow degrees. 
 
 2otj2. But you persevered, and paid them higher salaries, and ultimately you 
 found you obtained a higher character of men ?— No doubt ; and I am quite sa- 
 tisfied that by persevering, by not doing things in a hurry, but by promoting men 
 carefully, and as we find them fit for promotion, so that each promotion shnll 
 tell, and be subjected probably to no failure, and no discredit by want of suc- 
 cess, you will go on as you have hitherto gone on, making the natives from year 
 to year more qualified to take a more important and efficient part in the admin- 
 istration of their own afi^airs than they have.ever done before ; and it is in that 
 way that I look forward to the improvement of the native character. I am fin- 
 from supposing that after a time they will not be in this manner frequently fit 
 for the very highest offices. 
 
 2063. You do not see any insuperable bar to the same (;ourse of treatment 
 which has been successful in quaUfying natives to fill the higher offices as judges, 
 ultimately enabling us to have their services in the Legislative Council ? — Not 
 at all ; on the contrary, I look forward to it as a thing to be hoped for and car- 
 ried into effect as soon as ever it prudently can be so. 
 
 2064. With regard to one obstacle which jou alluded to, the wnnt of confi- 
 dence on the part of the natives in their own race, does not that arise from a 
 general want of faith in their moral character ? — It does ; I have said as re- 
 gards the Europeans, the feeling of the natives generally is that they are incor- 
 rupt. As regards tlie natives, the general opinion, often erroneous, I am glad 
 to say now, is, that they are universally corrui)til)le. A native will never 
 believe his fellow native to be incorruptible, till lu; has tried to corrupt him and 
 failed. 
 
 2065. The Legislative Council, consisting exclusively of Englishmen, their 
 having the confidence of the native races more than any members of their own 
 race, would arise, of course, entirely from a behef in the superior moral ])io- 
 bity of the European race ? — In a great measure, and also from their standing 
 apart from their divisions and differences. 
 
 2066. Apart from the belief in the corruptibility of their own race, the 
 natives would naturally, one would suppose, prefer to h:ive men of their own 
 country as their legislators ? — That sujjposes a degree of nationahty of feehng 
 among the natives, which I think does not yet exist. 
 
 20G7. Is not there naturally more leaning to their o\\n r:;ces than to the 
 Enghsh race ?— That is a sort of feeling which is growing up among ])eople who 
 have been very long subject to our rule, but certainly we find very little of the 
 feeling among any of the natives 1 have been conversant with ; and i should 
 
 0.10. X s.'iy,
 
 1 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKExN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. J. Halliday, Say, strange as it may seem, if you could put it to the intelligent natives of 
 Esq. Bengal, for instance, as to whether they would rather be governed by Bengalese 
 
 ""~ or f^nglishmen, you would have an overwhelming majority in favour of being 
 18 Marcli 1853. governed b}' Englishmen ; I think that undesirable, and I hope it will be other- 
 wise in process of time. 
 
 2068. You attribute it to the behef of the natives in the corruptibility of 
 their own countrymen r — Mainly. 
 
 2069. You spoke of the jealousy, and even animosity, which was directed 
 against a native who had been jn-omoted by Lord Dalhousie ; does that spirit 
 arise from a feeling of resentment against one of their own body, who is sup- 
 posed by joining the Government to have abandoned the interests of his own 
 race "- — No, nothing of the kind ; there is no feeling of antagonism, as between 
 part}- and party. 
 
 2070. Is this jealousy and animosity directed towards a native upon taking 
 office anything more than mere fireside envy ?— It is mere petty envy and 
 malevolence. 
 
 :207 I . Is not it founded upon the conviction derived from long experience, 
 that when the Indian Government has absorbed a native into their own body, 
 there is generally greater subsei'viency to the Government, on the part of that 
 native, that on the part of a European? — It is not founded upon that ; that feeling 
 does not the least exist in India ; they know nothing of the matter, but if they 
 were to look to find anything of the kind they would find the case to be very 
 often quite the reverse. The Government is extremely liberal as to the opinions, 
 and even, as I may call them, the political acts of those native subordi- 
 nates To give the ("ommittee an instance, certainly one of the most 
 popular men among the English in Calcutta generally, and among persons 
 connected with the Government, and one who has been most benefited by long 
 Goveinment service of a very lucrative kind, is a man whom I have already 
 named, who was for years in the ser^dce of the Government, in various capaci- 
 ties, and realised in their service a very large fortune. He has chosen to set 
 himself up rather as an opponent of things as they are, and an exposer of the 
 faults of the Government administration, but he is not the least checked or 
 controlled, or frowned upon in consequence ; he is just as much received in 
 English society, has just as much influence among the English, and during the 
 time that he was in the Government service was just as much trusted as if he 
 were as submissive as you suppose Government employment would necessarily 
 make a native. 
 
 2072. He does not continue in office now, does he ? — No ; merely because he 
 resign' dfrom old age and a great accumulation of wealth, some short tinn' ago ; 
 but it is a matter with which the Government does not interfere iu the least ; 
 perhaps they rather like to see some spii'it of that sort among tlieir subjects, 
 some desire to improve the institutions, to inquire into their defects and make 
 suggestions for their improvement ; it is a very rare thing among the natives, and 
 far from discouraging it, the Government rather encourage it than otherwise, 
 and the tendency of all their education, and all their improvement in that 
 direction, has been rather to create this spirit than depress it. 
 
 2073. Mr. LdboHchcrc.^ What office did he hold?— He held a number of 
 offices, which he filled for many years ; he was dewan, or principal native 
 ministerial officer, to the salt agent of Tamlook ; subsequently to that he was 
 what answers here perhaps to attorney- general : he was advocate-general or 
 (company's vakeel ; the trusted and confidential adviser of the Government in 
 all its litigation in the Sudder Court, and in all the courts. 
 
 2074. Did he fill those offices to the satisfaction of the Government ? — 
 Eminently ; he was one of the ablest men 1 can j)oint to among the natives in 
 Heugal. 
 
 2075. What was his education? — He is one of the exceptional cases I have 
 occasionally alluded to ; he acquired a considerable knowledge of English at 
 one of the Government schools ; he imjjroved it afterwards by reading ; he is a 
 man of great natural acuteness ; he has engaged a great deal in business, and 
 has l)Len thrown by his family very much into the society of the more advanced 
 among the natives of Calcutta. 
 
 2076. Mr. Cubden.] I gather from your answers that you do not despair but 
 that, witli proper encouragement and judicious treatment, the natives may, at 
 some future time, be rendered capable of filling any offices of trust ? — I do not 
 
 in
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TRRHITORIES. 163 
 
 in the least despair ; I go the full length of saying that I believe our mis^sion F. J llallidat/, 
 in India is to qualify them for governing themselves: I say also that the nica- '^«q- 
 
 sures of the Government for a number of years past have been advisedly 
 directed to so qualifying theiu, without the slightest reference to any remote ' "^^■^' 
 
 consequences upon our administration. 
 
 2077. Mr. llardhuH'.] You have alluded to the legal training of ei\'ilians ; 
 would you reconnnend that a great deal smaller proportion of time should be 
 devoted to the Oriental languages at Haileybury, and a larger proportion of 
 time to jurisprudence? — Yes. 
 
 207 S. You have also stated that you would have a native judge on every 
 beneli ; do you mean in eaeli zi]!ah?--It is a financial question ; my idea cer- 
 tainly is that it would be well to have an appeal court, such as I havedescriljcd, 
 with a native in it in each zillah, certainly as soon as the finances of the 
 Government can afford it. 
 
 2079. ^^ there at present a sufficient number of natives with whom you are 
 acquainted who are qualified for such appointments ? — There would be a diffi- 
 culty in the selection at first, no doubt, l)ut there are many of the natives now 
 serving upon the judicial bench as principal sudder amins, who might very 
 well be tried, and who, most likely, would succeed in such situations ; 1 should 
 have no objection whatever to make the experiment. 
 
 2080. With regard to the selection of the judges according to the system of 
 seniority, has that system been practically carried out ? — Yes, it has, with a sort 
 of constant feeling that it was wrong, and ought to be improved, and a constant 
 convulsive attempt to improve it from time to time, but failing, whenever it did 
 fail, entirely from the weakness of the Government. When the Government 
 has been strong, for instance, when the matter has been in the hands of the 
 Governor-general himself, and the Governor-general bus had confidence in those 
 about him, the system of mere seniority of promotion has been widely departed 
 from, and I am satisfied that it will no longer exist as soon as the Government 
 feels itself strong enough to do witiiout it ; by the expression " strong enough," 
 I mean having both interest in the matter and firm stability : having the confi- 
 dence of those above it, and having confidence in those below it, sufficient to 
 face a certain amount of unpopularity which is always produced by such a 
 change as I am now talking about. 
 
 208 I . With respect to the chokeydary system, has it ever been contemplated 
 by the Government to abolish that system, and have there been any remon- 
 strances on the part of the zemindars when such a change was in contempla- 
 tion? — A change is in contemplation at this moment, or was so when I left 
 India, to the effect of enforcing the regular appointment, and the adequate 
 payment of the chokeydars from the parties in the villages responsible for their 
 payment. It has been very warmly opposed by a certain party in Calcutta, who 
 profess to represent the interests of the zemindars in Bengal, almost entirely on 
 account of the additional expense that the zemindars, or those representing the 
 zemindars, tliink it would cause to them. 
 
 2082. As you have not yet stated to the Committee what are the duties of the 
 superintendent of police, will you be good enough briefly to explain what those 
 duties are r — The duties of the superintendent of police are to watch over the 
 general management of the police of the country, by the several magistrates of 
 the districts, who make their reports to him ; he has also to report to the 
 Government generally, and specially upon the efficiency of the establishments, 
 and to propose measures for the improvement of the police, either by putting 
 down crime generally, or by taking particular measures against some special 
 offence, which has become prevalent in a particular neighbourhood, or other- 
 wise, as the case may be ; he has also to recommend, or to sanction, the 
 appointment and dismissal of subordinate police officers ; and it is from 
 him usually that the Government takes that advice which guides it in the 
 promotion and the distribution of the magistrates, and the police force in the 
 country. 
 
 20S3. Would you recommend that that office should be continued? — It is a 
 comparatively recent office. It was established a long while ago ; then put down 
 by Lord William Bentinck, and afterwards re-established by Lord Auckland ; 
 T do not think it has been very successful. The country is too large perhaps 
 to be under one man, and the officers too numerous ; and there is a feeling 
 growing up, whether owing to the failure of the particular individual in charge 
 
 0.10. X 2 of
 
 i64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 1-. J.HuUday, of the office, or other svise, I cannot very well tell, that the appomtment is not 
 Esq- so useful as had been anticipated. 
 
 20S4. 'Mv. M(nHjJi's.~\ ^Vill you be so good as to describe to the Committee 
 'K Mi;vc 1 1853. ^^.^^^^ jg ^j^p gj^jj^p yf ^j^p ]jj„. iiud^.i- the Company's regulations, as regards matters 
 
 of litigation between the Government and individuals under the laws of Lord 
 Cornwallis ? — The law of the Government at present as regards disputes be- 
 tween the Government and individuals, is exactly the same as the law respecting 
 disputes between man and man. i he Government places itself in the position 
 of an individual in all litigation witli its subjects. 
 
 208;-,. There is no exception to that? — There is no exception or distinction 
 whatever. 
 
 2oS(). The Government may be prosecuted on any matter of land revenue or 
 customs revenue, and may be made to pay costs and damages just as an indi- 
 vidual may ? — Yes, quite so ; so much so that the system was objected to by 
 a very eminent member of the Government, afterwards Lord ftletcalfe, as 
 placing the (Government prostrate at the foot of the civil courts ; but I believe 
 nobody agreed with bini that it was objectionable, though they admitted the fact. 
 
 •2087. ^'ou are aware that that is not the law in England ? — I know nothing 
 about the law in England. 
 
 2088. Sir 2\ H. Maddock.'] You have expressed an opinion in favour of an 
 amalgamation of the Supreme Court and the Sudder Dewanney Adawlut, to 
 which appeals from all courts whatever in Bengal should be made, and you at 
 the same time suggested the establishment of a subordinate court in Calcutta, 
 to administer the English law ; was that suggestion made as a measure to be 
 permanent, or a temporary measure till some general code was established for 
 the general administration of equal law to all classes in India? — 1 had an idea 
 that it woidd be permanent. I have no idea that you can at any time dei)rive 
 the English inhabitants of Calcutta of the English law ; I think they are 
 attached to it, and being so it is undesii-able to deprive them of it. though per- 
 haps it might be subjected, and of course will be subjected, to modification from 
 time to time by the action of the Legislative Council. 
 
 2089. Will you state what you consider to be the population of Calcutta, 
 and the proportion of the English residents to the rest of the population ? — 
 J am not able to state that. The English population is in fact small as com- 
 pared with the natives ; but the English population is very large compared with 
 the natives, with reference to similar comparisons elsewhere ; that is to sa)', a 
 far greater proportion of the people of Calcutta are Europeans than would be 
 found to be the case in a comparison of the proportion of the population of 
 any other place in India. 
 
 2090. Do not you think it would be anomalous so to legislate as to create 
 a permanent distinction between the law^ administered in the presidency towns 
 and the law to which all Europeans would be subjected throughout the country? 
 — I do not think one has much to do with the other. However you legislated, 
 whether you formed a new code or not, you would require a coin-t of appeal 
 and a local court, which is all I have ventured to suggest ; whatever code you 
 administered you would re(|uire those particular courts to administer it. 
 
 2091. You have borne testimony to the confidence which the natives of 
 India ha^■e in the purity and incorruptibilitj- of the l^luropeau judges ; it is as 
 great, j)robably, as the confidence they feel in the purity and incorrui)til)ility of 
 the judges of the Supreme Court ? — Yes, quite as great. 
 
 2002. But do you sui)pose that there is that confidence, that although the 
 judge in both those courts is perfectly incorriii)tible, suits can be carried 
 through, and can be won without the exjjenditure of money? — No ; i)recisely 
 because; the ministerial officers of the judge are natives. 
 
 209,5. ]\Ir. V. Smith.'] Are the Committee to understand that your opinion is 
 adverse to such an institution as the Law Commission? — Yes, upon the footing 
 upon which it existed. 
 
 2094. Why was it allowed to expire ? — From a feeling that it had not been 
 successful, I suppose. 
 
 2095. And you would not be favourable to its renewal? — Not in the form in 
 which it existed. 1 have exi)lained that I would desire to see it revived, or a 
 portion of it revived, as a part of the Legislative Council, but not otherwise. 
 
 2096. You statecl yesterday that you considered the law member of the 
 Legislative Council was useful as affording an opportunity for a person who 
 
 was
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. ' iG.-; 
 
 was a sound lawyer niul a statesman to niiv with the Council of India: what r. J. Hal/Ul/iu 
 security is there that such a jicrson ;is you rank under those liin;h terms of a lis«i- 
 
 sound hnvyer and a statesman wouUl he a|)))ointedr— You have the security of ,o vTrTi — ^o^ 
 the integrity of those who appoint him, and the temptation to a good man to ' '"^'^^' ^'^' 
 
 take an a])pointmcnt which is attended hy emolunu-nt and distiiu'tion. 
 
 2097. You stated that your reason for wisiiing him to he there was that it 
 was expedient that a sound lawyer and a statesman shovdd mix with the 
 Council : what security have the jjublic that such a selection would he made ? 
 — There is none, except the projjcr administration of patronage by those who 
 have the patronage of that office in their hands. 
 
 2098. They might not take the same view of it that you do : — Certaiidy not. 
 
 2099. Sir ( '. Hood.] Y'ou contemi)late that this court which you have pro- 
 posed to establish should be a court of appeal in criminal cases as well as in 
 civil eases, do you not r — Yes. 
 
 2100. Mr. Elliot. "\ Have not periods occurred when the great majority of 
 the best men in the service were found to have been placed in the judicial 
 branch ? — Y\'s. 
 
 2101. "Was not it found necessaxy, for the security of the revenue at that 
 time, that some of those officers should be transferred to the revenue depart- 
 ment .- — I do not know v\hether I can answer that question in the form in 
 which it is put ; perhaps it will be sufficient if 1 say it was found that the 
 manner of administering the Government had tended to throw all the best men 
 into the judicial department, and that the Government somewhat changed its 
 administration, so as for some years to come to throw a proportion of the good 
 men also into the revenue department. 
 
 2! 02. So that if it should have happened at any time that there was a 
 rather smaller number of the best men in the judicial branch, that is by no 
 means to be taken as the general rule ? — No. 
 
 2103. Sir T. H. A/afhlocJc] Has not it occasionally occurred that, upon the 
 misconduct of a civil officer being reported to the Court of Dii'ectors, the orders 
 and instructions which have been i-eceived from the Court of Directors have 
 been to the effect of declaring such civil officer incompetent for further employ- 
 ment in the judicial branch of the service ? — ^I do recollect one or two such 
 cases. 
 
 2 1 04. You have expressed an opinion very adverse to any Legislative Council 
 which may be formed, having natives appointed members of it, either for the 
 purpose of comnumicating the feelings and opinions of the natives to that 
 Legislative Council, or for aiding it by an expression of their own views; do 
 you consider that if it is resolved to form a Legislative Council without any 
 native of the country being appointed as a member of it, there is any other 
 mode by which you can obtain the opinion of the best informed of the 
 natives upon any subject which is before the Legislature, in which they are 
 especially interested r — I know of no mode other than that which exists at 
 present, namely, the obtaining it piecemeal from the different jiarts of the 
 countrv through our subordinate ofHcers, who are in constant intercourse with 
 the natives of all classes and castes and opinions. 
 
 2105. In all the native governments of India, whether Hindoo or INIaho- 
 medan, there is, is not there, a set of highly respectable persons, subjects of 
 the State, who are much in the same position as Privy Councillors may be sup- 
 posed to be in this country, to a certain number of whom an\' matter on which 
 the Govei-nment desire to obtain the opinion of the best informed of its subjects 
 is referred ; do you consider that it would be impracticable, or that it would be 
 useless, to have some such list of highly intelligent persons, like the list of the 
 grand jury in the presidency towns, but extending further throughout the 
 Mofussil to a certain select committee, to whom the Government might upon 
 any occasion refer any question on which they desired to obtain their advice 
 and opinion ? — I should see no objection to having such a list of quaiitied 
 persons to refer to, and it w'ould give you what you very often want, th,© means 
 of conferring distinction upon deserving natives ; but you coidd never assend)k 
 them together in committees^ at least not without immense Kiiffieulty }• you. must 
 consult them separately. ''ui lo tiis'.u -wiJ yaiinnzy bnu «J-njoo 
 
 2106. Could not you assemble a(i»eK''Oipoj'tio^ of them Tt-HJltdtVes nptap^TCiai' 
 to me easy in a large territory: tocassei'nblei even, a simall portion of them. ; ■ . 
 
 2 107. Might nptithei'e he several comoiiWiees. assembled in diiffer-ent portlpns 
 0.10. X 3 of
 
 i66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 F. J. HuUiday, of the country P — I dare say there might be ; the natives, however, are unaccus- 
 Esq. tomed to act in bodies of that kind ; you would have, perhaps, some difficulty 
 
 in getting a sound opinion out of tliem when you assembled them ; and I repeat 
 
 18 March 1853. y^-jjat I said before, that in the present state of the country, and the position of 
 the natives as regards information, it is better to consult them in the manner 
 to which they are accustomed, namely, singly, and through those who are most 
 accustomed to deal with them. 
 
 21118. You state that as your opinion, notwithstanding it should be notorious 
 thfit such is the practice in the principal states subject to the native princes? — 
 Chiefiv because that which is practicable in a small native state is not so prac- 
 ticable, taid I am sure altogether impracticable, in the enormously extended 
 territories of British India. 
 
 The Right Honourable Sir Edward Rj/uit, called in ; and Examined. 
 
 Right Hon. jioL). Sir C. 11 00^/.] ^VHAT appointments have you held in India? — I was 
 
 Sir Edtvard Rya u. Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court from May 1827 to December 1833, and 
 " ^ Chief Justice from December 1833 to January 1842. 
 
 •21 lo. Did you then leave India ? — I then left India. 
 
 •21 I I. Are you not now a member of the privy council? — Of the judicial 
 committee of the privy council. 
 
 2112. And you have sat upon the trial of Indian appeals in that capacity ? — 
 1 have sat since June 1843 upon every Indian appeal down to the present time; 
 not always as a member of the judicial committee ; 1 have only recently been 
 a member of the juchcial committee, but I have been summoned to attend 
 during the residue of the time. 
 
 2113. Chainnan.'] What communication took place in 1829 between the 
 S udder and the Supreme Coui'ts and the Government as to the improvement of 
 the admini.-tration of justice ? — In 1829 the Government of India came to the 
 conclusion that it was desirable to allow Europeans to be introduced without 
 license into the Mofussil, and that they would recommend tlieir free admission 
 to tlie Government at home. As a consequence of such a measure they con- 
 sidered that it would be necessary to make Europeans subject to the courts of the 
 Mofussil, and that for that purpose it w ould be necessaiy to consider the laws to 
 which they ought to be subject ; and they recommended, for the consideration of 
 the authorities at home, the propriety of establishing a code of laws, a system of 
 courts, and the granting enlarged legislative powers, especially in reference to 
 British subjects, they having already the j)Ower of legislating in reference to 
 natives in the interior. Various minutes passed at that time between the 
 members of the Council and the judges of the Supreme ("ourt, and an Act was 
 prepared to be submitted to the authorities at home for consideration, previous to 
 the renewal of the charter, containing a scheme for a Legislative Council. That 
 scheme was, that the judges of the Supreme Court and the members of the 
 Council should !)<.• members of the Legislative Council, and such other persons, a 
 blank lieing left in the Bill, as might be nominated by the Crown, or by the Court 
 of Directors with the a})i)robation of the Crown. Those plans were sent home; 
 they were alluded to in the proc'eedings in Parliament ; they were printed by 
 the Committee of the House of Commons before whom they were laid, and they 
 |)robably formed some of the grounds on which Parliament came to the con- 
 clui^io'i that enlarged jjovvers should be granted to the Legislative Council, and 
 that there should be a legislative member of that Council appointed from home, 
 and that there sliovdd be a law connnission for the purpose of considering 
 what lau> should be ])assed in India, for the purpose of establishing a code of 
 laws and a systi'm of courts in India, and especially with reference to the 
 admission of l</Uropeans into the Molussil. 
 
 2114. Have the i)rovisions of tlie Act of 1834 effected the objects which were 
 contemplated in 1829? — Certainly not. It was the intention of the Legislature 
 under that Act of Parliament, as is to be gathered from the words of the Act 
 itself, that the commL-^sion should make inquiry into the existing system of the 
 courts and examine the state of judicature generally in both the Queen's and 
 the Companj's courts ; that after a full examination into the subject it should 
 rejjort the results of their inquiries; that the ( iovernor-general should direct what 
 inquiries it should make, and what places it should visit for the purpose of making 
 
 those
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. ih; 
 
 those inquiries. No searchiug inquiry lias l)een made l)y tliat counnission Itigbt Mom. 
 into the state of the existing courts nor into the state of the Oueen's (lourts, nor ^'' Edvsard Ryan 
 
 have any reports of that nature l)een made, nor lias the conmiission person- 
 
 ally visited or inspected the state and condition of any of the courts in the iiite- '^ March i»53. 
 rior ; but it did i)roeeed in 1835, wlien it was established, to the consideration of a 
 code of eriniinal law. That was tin- first work undertaken by ibe e.mimission. 
 Perhaps there was some necessity for applying itself in the first instance to the 
 formation of a code of criminal law, because if British sul)jccts were to be placed 
 under the jurisdiction of tlie criminal courts of tbe Company in tlie Mofussil it 
 was neeessar}' that there should be some law that was applicable to them and 
 fit to he administered to tbem ; the criminal law administered by those courts 
 being the Mahomedan law, qualified by the regulations of tlic J'^a.st India Com- 
 pany. That code was prepared in 1837- From 1837 to 18-46 no step was taken 
 with respect to that code, excepting tbat it was transmitted to the judges of the 
 various courts in India, both the Supreme and the iSudder, for their con- 
 sideration, and to report their views and opinions upon its provisions. There 
 were elaborate rejjorts made from various quarters of India. Those were 
 reviewed in 1846 and 1847 b}' the two remaining members of the then Law 
 Commission. Elaborate reports were made to the Government upon the 
 observations whicli had been made upon the code by the judges of the 
 Supreme and the Company's courts and other judges, and then I believe it was 
 transmitted home, and in 1848 directions were given by the authorities at home 
 to those in India to pass that code into a law, with such amendments as might 
 appear advisable; what happened between that tin e and 1850 1 am unable to 
 state, except that the code was not carried out; but in 1850 the question again 
 arose as to the necessity of providing for the trial of British subjects in tbe 
 courts of the Company, and on that occasion the then Governor-general, Lord 
 Dalhousie, was of opinion that the Mahomedan law, so qualified and altered 
 by the regulations, in the manner i have mentioned, was not a fitting law to 
 apply to that class of persons, and then the revision of the code again com- 
 menced. It was considered by Mr. Bethune, who was then legislative member 
 of the Council : he altered it in various respects ; in fact, he made an en- 
 tirely new code of it. The alterations were of ^uch a nature that the Govern- 
 ment tiiought it fitting to remit that code so altered, and also the original 
 code, for the opinion of the authorities at home ; the authorities at home, I 
 believe, in January 1852, again transmitted the code to India for tlie Legislative 
 Council to deal with there as they might deem expedient. W hat has been 
 done since that time as to that cede I am unable to state. Other measui'es 
 were proposed by the Law Commission ; one of which was for the establish- 
 ment of a subordinate criminal court ; another was for a ci'iminal code of pro- 
 cedure for the ])urpose of carrying out the penal code, called Mr. Macaulay's 
 Penal Code ; it Was a code of procedui-e with forms of indictments. I am not 
 aware that anything has been done as to that ; tbat has been transmitted 
 home ; but 1 am not aware that any step has been taken upon it. There were 
 other measures also proj)Osed by the commission, tending to the improvement 
 of the administration of justice in India ; there was a pi*oposaI for what is 
 termed the lex loci. In the time of Lord William Bentinck it was considered a 
 grievance by East Indians, by tbe Armenians, and native Christians, that in the 
 Mofussil there was no law as to succession or property applicable to those classes 
 of persons. An attempt was made at that time to remedy the evil b}- a regula- 
 tion which was i)repared by Sir \\ illiam Macnaghton, wlm was then secretary 
 to the Government ; that regulation was at the time submitted to me. I thought 
 the legislative powers then existing were not sufficient, and the scheme was 
 then abandoned. After the establishment of the Law Comniissiou, this anoma- 
 lous state of the law in the Mofussil as to that class of persons was submitted to 
 them for their consideration. They made an elaborate report u])on tbe subject, 
 and they prepared a measure. Their report was made in 1840, and the Act was 
 pubhshed in 1 84 1 , for the purpose of carrying out their views. 1- roni 1 84 1 down 
 to 1845 that question slept, for reasons which I am unable to st.ite, but in 1845 it 
 was reconsidered by the Government. It was approved of by all the judges of the' 
 Sudder courts and the Queen's courts in India, except one, by all the members of 
 the Council, with the exception, 1 think, of one ; and it was then transmitti'd home. 
 From that time to the present, this measure, which was intended to remedy a 
 great grievance as to those classes of persons 1 have mentioned, and also as to 
 0.10. - X 4 foreigners,
 
 i68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Right Hon. foreigners, Jews, and others resident in the interior of the country, has slept, 
 Sir Edward Ri/an. ^Y^^}^^ j,^ fj^r as I am aware, no step lias been taken. I think I mentioned the 
 ■ subordinate criminal court, but I did not mention the subordinate civil court. 
 
 18 March 1853. ^ ^-^^^^ ^^^^ ^1^^ proposed by the Law Commissioners for a subordinate civil 
 court. That was, in the first instance, to be established in Calcutta. The plan 
 was, that this subordinate civil court should have jurisdiction over almost all 
 civil cases, the ))arties having the option to try their cases bef<n-e that court or 
 before the Supreme Court. It contained a plan for wliat is termed a fusion of 
 law and equity ; that is, that the Court should have the jiower of deciding in 
 the words which are used in the Mofussil i)roceedings, " accoi'ding to equity 
 and good conscience ;" that they should have the power of examining the 
 parties, and that they might also adopt what is termed the assessor plan ; namely, 
 the power of submitting the case to persons called assessors, who should express 
 an opinion upon it, Ijut should not have the power of deciding, tlie decision 
 resting with the judge. That subordinate civil court was intended as a mode 
 for the courts in the Mofussil. Both the subordinate criminal court and this 
 subordinate civil court were framed as experiments in the presidency town 
 itself, to be in some degree under the supervision of the judges of the .Supreme 
 Court, with a view to try the practicability of their extension to the Mofussil 
 courts. As to the subordinate civil court there was considerable discussion ; 
 the plan was suljuiitted to tlie judges of the Supreme Court for their opinion. 
 There was a great deal of difference of opinion as to a variet}^ of matters of 
 detail. It v.as transmitted to the authorities at home, and upon that there was 
 a decision by the authorities at home, not api)roving of it, though 1 do not know 
 in what form their opinion of it was expressed, and in consequence that measure 
 was not carried out. In the plan of the subordinate civil court there was are- 
 commendation for the examination of the parties themselves ; that is a measure 
 which has been carried into effect in this country, and is a great improvement 
 of the lav.\ There was also a recommendation of what is under consideration 
 here, namely, a fusion of law and equity, which means that the court before 
 which the matter is brought should have the jjovver of disposing of all that 
 relates to the subject in all its branches ; and that there should be no division, 
 as there is in the Supreme Court at Calcutta at this moment, between law and 
 equity. A party may commence his proceedings on one side of that court, and 
 be told that his relief is in equity, and be obliged to commence his proreedings de 
 novo ; or he may commence his proceedings in equity, and be told tliat his relief 
 is at law. The object of this court was was the adoption, in some respects, of 
 the principle which is in force in the courts in the IMofussil : that tliey should 
 have the power of deciding upon the whole subject-matter brought before them, 
 according to what are termed the principles of equity and good conscience. 
 There were various otlier measures wliich tlie Law Connnission considered and 
 rej)orted upon, wlii(;h are mentioned in a petition, which I believe has been 
 referred to this Committee, a petition to the House of Commons by Mr. 
 Cameron, who was a niciubcr of the Law Commission, and Legislative member 
 of the Council of India ; the prayer of wliich petition, I believe, was that these 
 matters and others which I have not mentioned, in the preparation of which a 
 considerable amount of money and time had Ijeen exiiended, sliould be sub- 
 mitted to some competent jurists, who might decide upon their practicability 
 or usefulness ; the fact being, as it would seem, that neither the authorities in 
 India, nor the authorities in i'.ngland, have felt themselves quite coiupetent to 
 decide, or may not have had the means of obtaining all the information which 
 they required in order to decide vipon matters involving questions of such diffi- 
 culty and intricacy. 
 
 12] 15. Are you of ojiiiiion that the prayer of that petition ought to be com- 
 plied with, and that there should be such a reference to jurists in this country? 
 — I think it would be desirable that these matters should be considered by some 
 commission in this countrj-, formed, as I have reason to believe it could be, of 
 eomijctent jurists wlio would be willing to give their time tor that purpose, and 
 also of retired Indian judges, who, I believe, would be willing to assist ; and 
 also of civil servants of the ivist India Company, especially those civil servants 
 who are now in England, and who formed nu'ndjcrs of the Law Commission in 
 India: 1 mean especially Mr. Millett and Mr. McLcod; other civil servants, 
 perhaps, might be willing to act. I think a commission so constituted would 
 probably be able to form an opinion upon these plans, and not only upon these, 
 
 but
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. jChj 
 
 but upon other suggestions which might l)e made for the improvement of tlie liiglit Hon. 
 administration of jnstieo in India, and also u])on tlie jjractiealjilitv of applying ^"^ l-'lninid Rijan. 
 
 that criminal code to all jx-rsons in India, British as well as native subjects. ' 
 
 2ii(i. Would you entrust that conunission with the duties whieli it was in *^ Mnrch 11^53. 
 tended by the last Act to impose upon the then-named Law Commission / — (Jf 
 course thev would not, and could not perform the duties of (MKpiirv which I 
 consider were a very important part of the duties entrusted to that commission ; 
 but as many of these ])lans have been much considered in India, and re- 
 ported on by various authorities there, and as all the information which the 
 Governmeiit could collect, has upon many of them been collected and trans- 
 mitted home, I think with the assistance of civil servants familiar with the 
 interior of the country, jurists here and retired Indian judges, a bodv might 
 perhaps be formed comix'tent to dispose of those matters in a more efficient 
 manner than by remitting them again to India for that jmrpose, where the con- 
 sideration of them, hitherto, certainly has not led to any conclusion. 
 
 2117. Is it your opinion that a bodj' so composed would be competent to 
 frame a code for the administration of justice in India, and that the o])ject 
 might in that way be better effected, than as has been suggested by another 
 \ntness, by entrusting it to the Legislative Council? — My plan would be this : 
 that this commission, if formed in the manner I have mentioned, should con- 
 sider and report upon these plans, and such other suggestions as may be 
 oifered to them, for the improvement of the administration of justice in India ; 
 and that having made their report, the result, and the measures they propose 
 should be remitted to India to be carried out by the Legislative Council in that 
 country, with some authoritative declaration, on the part of the Government 
 here, to prevent a recurrence of that which has hapj^ened so frequently, the 
 transmission of measures from India to England, and from England to India, 
 without any conclusion being come to u])on them. I think it not desirable 
 finally to dispose of them here, and I think it not desirable to legislate upon 
 them here, but tliat the legislation should be in India ; because, liowever care- 
 fullv those measures may be i)repared, even with all the knowled'^e which is 
 now accumulated for the carefid j)reparation of them, in the manner I have 
 alluded to, still I think they would re([uire adaptation by the Council of India, 
 in the -sarious details, and that that might be better disposed of there than 
 here. 
 
 2118. ^Vhat would go from this country would be a scheme, the final 
 decision upon which would rest with the Legislative Council in India? — The 
 legislation upon it would rest with the Legislative Council in India, with such 
 alterations and adaptations as they might deem expedient ; but any material 
 alteration of the scheme I do not contemplate, after it has been decided on by 
 such a body as I have ventured to allude to. 
 
 2119. Therefore you would not leave to the Legislative Council the liberty 
 to change it ? — I shovdd be very unwilling that any great change should be 
 made. Supposing, after the revision of the Criminal Code by the authorities I 
 have mentioned at home, it were sent out, I should be very unwilling that, 
 e.xcept for the purpose of adaptation, and except with regard to particular 
 native customs, which might not be specially or sufficiently provided for, there 
 should be any alteration by the Legislative Council in India. 
 
 2120. In }our i)lan, would you leave to the Legislative Council in India the 
 power to make such changes ? — Yes. 
 
 2121. Do }ou consider that there would be a certainty of a iierfect agreenu-nt 
 between the Commission here and the Legislative Council in India? — I cannot 
 be certain that they would take precisely the same views, but I presume if the 
 authorities here expressed a very strong opinion in favour of the views reported 
 upon by that commission, it is not very likely after all that has taken place, 
 both with reference to the code and other matters, that the Government of 
 India would ojjpose itself to those views, and alter the code in such a manner 
 as to render what has been done here ineffectual. If I came to that conclusion, 
 I should think it better that the legislation should take place here ; but it is 
 my confidence that that is not a probable result ; that induces me to make the 
 suggestion that it should be ])assed by the Council in India. 
 
 2122. In the first place, you feel confident that the body as you propose lo 
 compose it here, would agree as to what were to be the laws .' — What was pro- 
 posed of course would be decided upon by the majority ; the majority here must 
 
 0.10. Y come
 
 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Right Hon. conie to certain conclusions, and report those conclusions ; it is upon those con- 
 Sir Edward Ry oh. elusions that I propose the scheme should be framed. 
 
 -21 ■2'^. Have you any suggestions to offer for the better administration of 
 
 18 March 1853. ju^ji^.^, jjj ^j^g Supreme Courts in India r — I have no alteration to propose 
 with reference to the Supreme Courts exclusively. I believe the Supreme 
 Courts in India adopt all the improvements which are taking place in the 
 administration of justice in England, and that as speedily as they assume 
 a definite shape here, they are carried out by the judges of the Supreme 
 Court in India, as far as they are able to do so. But I am of opinion, that 
 the scheme which was suggested in 1829 by the judges and the Government at 
 that time, namcl}-, the amalgauiation of the Supreme Court with the Sudder 
 Court,, is desirable. The notion which 1 entertain is tliis, tl)at it would be 
 desirable to unite the Queen's judges with the Company's judges in one court ; 
 that such court h^hould be an appellate court for the presidency in which it is 
 estabhslied; that it should be an appellate court from the Company's courts, 
 and also from a subordinate civil court, to be established for the trial of certain 
 causes in tlie prtsidency towns ; I think this court also ought to have an ori- 
 ginal jurisdiction in certain cases. I tlunk it would be desirable that one of the 
 judges of the Supreme Court should try certain civil and criminal cases in Cal- 
 cutta It might be desirable that a judge of the Supreme Court should preside 
 over certain causes in the Mofussil ; for instance, cases have arisen where the 
 result has been, in fact, a denial of justice, because a British subject in an 
 extreme part of India has committed an offence ; and to bring the witnesses to 
 Calcutta for the purpose of trying him for such offence, would be almost im- 
 possible ; whereas if the judge had the means of going to the place where the 
 witnesses were, and trying the case there, justice would not be defeated. I 
 allude particularly to some cases where grave offences have been alleged to have 
 been committed by those holding high official offices in India, and which might 
 have been disposed of in this vvay, and could not, in truth, by any other. I 
 think, also, it would be very desirable that judges of the civil service who would 
 constitute a portion of that court, should have an opportunity of going to the 
 various zilluhs in the Mofussil occasionally, for the trial of causes there, and that 
 they should exercise in that way a certahi degree of superintendence over the 
 administration of justice in the interior. 
 
 •2124. How would you compose that court ?■- Of the jvidges of the Queen's 
 courts and tiie Coiupany's courts. I see no objection to what I have heard 
 mentioned here to- day, though that is not what I have considered at all, namely, 
 the introduction of a native judge of considerable eminence. 
 
 •J 1 25. Of how many would that court be composed ? - I believe the Sudder 
 Court now varies from five to seven judges. In sketching out a scheme of 
 this kind, I am, of course, merely alluding to the principles, and cannot attempt 
 to entei' into the exact details ; l should think it should l)e composed of three 
 judges sent out from England, educated lawyers, and the judges of the Sudder 
 Court, with the sort of jui'isdiction that I have just sketched out. 
 
 2126. liavf you any suggestion to offer as to the law to be administered in 
 the (iueen's and tlie Company's courts? — I should be disposed to follow out 
 wliat was suggested also in 1S2S), that there should be a general code of laws, 
 both civil and criminal, ; a criminal code of law has been attempted in the 
 manner which has been already alluded to ; i think it would not be difficult to 
 form a code of civil law ; there are the elements of it in the laws which are 
 administered at present to the mass of the people, the Mahomedan and 
 Hindoo law, occasionally modified by the Regulations ; what is most peculiar to 
 those cases is the rules of inheritance and succession ; the law of contract is 
 very nmch the same everywhere ; at least it may be made almost the same 
 everywhere ; there is the English law w Inch applies to British subjects, but I 
 should propost^ to deal with that as was suggested upon the occasion of that 
 Icii' loci, it being intended at the time to introduce into the Mofussil, as to all 
 persons excepting Mahomedans and Hindoos, the English law, it was not to 
 be the English common and statute law as it exists in the local jurisdiction of 
 the Sui)reme Courts, but it was to be a digest of it, which was proposed at 
 that time to be framed by the now chief-justice. Sir Lawrence Peel, in com- 
 munication with the Law Commission, and so much of the L"',nglish law was to 
 be introduced as was applicable to thi' circumstances of the country , I think such 
 a digest would be applicable to all persons in the Mofussil, and I would make 
 
 it
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON IXDTAX Tl' RRITOIUES. 
 
 171 
 
 it also apyjlicablc to all persons in Calcutta, for f would not have two svstPins Right Hon. 
 of Knjilish law, and you would then only have to frame a digest of the Malio- ^'f E</wfird Ri/un. 
 
 medan law and the Hindoo law, and in that way, with the eode of criuiiual law, 
 
 there would be a uniform system applicable to all persons ; of coiu'se the great '^ Murch iS.o^- 
 difficulty in fonning a code with reference to the natives would arise fruni the 
 law of tenure, because with respect to the law of inheritance, and the law of 
 successitm, and the law of contracts, there would be no great difKeuliv, hut the 
 law of tenure varies very nuieh in various parts of India, and in arranging that, 
 there would be, no doubt, very c<msiderable difficulty. 
 
 'ii'Jj. What is your o])inion as to the propriety of the imuiediate introduction 
 of a system of juries in India? — That dejiends upon what is meant bv the 
 term jury. II by jury is meant anything a])))roaehing to the English system 
 of juries viz , that the verdict is to be given l)y a unanimous decision in 
 criminal and civil cases, it is quite out of the question. There was a suggestion 
 made by ^Ir. Cameron in one of his plans for a subordinate criu)inal court, 
 which was this : that there should be three assessors in every case ; that those 
 assessors should not have the power of deciding, but that they should give 
 seridthn their o])inions upon the case, r.nd that the decision of the case should 
 rest with the judge. That system, as the Committee is aware, wa.? intro- 
 duced into the Tenasserim provinces, where it has succeeded. It has been 
 introduced also into Ceylon ; it is said not to have succeeded so well there ; 
 though upon that subject i believe there are differences of opinion ; and it is 
 suggestetl that it has not succeeded so well in Ceylon owing to the class of 
 persons whom the Connnissioner, Mr. Cameron (who framed that sj'stem), 
 suggested should be the assessors not having been selected for that purpose. 
 In India, I think the plan would tend to the better administration of justice, if 
 suitable parties could be foimd in sufficient numbers in the interior, of which 
 I am not able to speak with anything like accuracy. But I by no means 
 agree in what I have heard suggested here, viz., that the assessors should pro- 
 nounce their opinions before the judge had given any intimation of his ; I 
 think that course very objectionable. In the first place, one of the great 
 uses of this .scheme of assessors would be this ; if the judge has to sum 
 up a case, it would ensure his own knowledge of the case ; it would not 
 only ensure his knowledge, but it would demonstrate to others that he had 
 that knowledge ; and not only so, but he would have, in the Mofussil, to 
 sum up in the native languages, and it would also show his competency in 
 that respect ; and it must certainly, if he is thoroughly acquainted with the 
 case, and has a thorough knowledge of it, tend to the better administration of 
 justice, that the views of such an improved mind should be given to the assessors, 
 before the}' form their own, and that they should have before them, as juries 
 have in this country, the view of the judge. I know the objection to that 
 course is, that it is said that juries will blindly follow that which may be 
 suggested by the judge ; but is not that saying that they are unfit to be jurors ; 
 if they are not competent to form any independent opinion you had better not 
 have them at all ; it is entirely a useless institution, and not only so, but if they 
 are inchned to follow the opinion of the judge submissively, and have no opinion 
 of their own, is not it also probable that in certain cases of great interest, or 
 gi*eat excitement, which the)^ have to try, they may be biassed by the opinions 
 and threats of persons out of court ? Therefore, upon the whole, it seems to me 
 that it would be desii'able to make the experiment in the mode the Law Com- 
 sioners have pointed out, and that the assessors should h.ive the power of ex- 
 pressing their o])inions seriatim, but not of deciding tinally upon the case, the 
 decision resting with the judge. 
 
 2 1 jS. Who would appoint the assessors? — ! suppose they would be selected 
 from a list framed by the judge of the zillah, the judge selecting persons whom 
 he thought most competent to fill such an office. 
 
 21 2(). Your opinion is, that competent persons might be found for that 
 purpose ? — I am unable to speak, except with great diffidence, of the Mofussil, 
 but 1 should think that com])etent persons might be found, whether persons 
 always altogether trustworthy, is anotiier question ; but as, acconUng to my plan, 
 they w ould not have the decision of the case, it would be very desirable to have 
 the opinion of well-informed persons. 
 
 o.:a. Y -2 2130. Those
 
 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Higljt Hon. 2130. Those assessors would be changed ia the uifFerent cases that came 
 
 Sir Edixard Ryun. i^eforc them ?— Yes. 
 
 •; 2131. Is 3'our idea to apply that, system to criminal cases only? — In this 
 
 18 Marcli 1853. g^ijoi.(ii^;ite "civil court there was a power given to have assessors in civil cases; 
 In Ceylon, the system has been tried in civil cases as well as in criminal ; in 
 the Tenasserim provinces it has only been tried in criminal eases. 
 
 2132. Have you any suggestion to offer as to the judicial training of the 
 Company's civil servants? — Of course, upon such a subject I speak with con- 
 siderable diffidence, but I have formed an opinion, and, such as it is, I 
 offer it to the Committee : 1 think it is very difficult to do anything that 
 is effectual in reference to judicial training in this country, supposing 
 the civil servants of tbe East India Company go out at the early age at 
 which thev now go out, namely, from 19 to 21. I think all you can 
 do effectually here, is to endeavour to give them, as is now done, to 
 a certain extent, a general knowledge of jurisprudence, some knowledge of 
 the civil law, and also of legal and constitutional history ; but certainly not 
 to attempt to give them any knowledge of technical English law, further 
 thr.n I have mentioned. They do not remain here long enough to attemjit 
 that which is of great importance, namely, to understand the art of administer- 
 ina, the law as well as the science of the law itself. Supposing them to go out 
 at the age they do now, vi])on their arrival in India, I understand, a very strict 
 course of examination in the native languages has been established by Lord 
 Dalhousie ; that, of course, is of the last importance. Having passi'd that 
 examination, I am of opinion that it would be still desirable to place them as 
 assistants to the collectors, or that they should be placed under collectors 
 in the first instance. I think they would obtain a knowledge of the habits, 
 and manners, and customs of the people in that way which they cari pro- 
 babh- ol:)tain in no other ; and I look upon that as being of great importance. 
 It would make them familiar with the use of the native languages. They 
 would see the peojile on various matters comiected vvith their interests, and 
 in that way they would have a training which 1 do not know that they can 
 accjuire in any other. Having remained for some, perhaps for two years, or 
 a } ear and a half, in that position for the purpose I have mentioned, then 
 I think another course must be taken with them. Under the old system 
 they were appointed assistant registrars or registrars to the zillah courts. 
 As assistant registrars or registrars to the zillah courts there is no doubt that 
 they obtained a certain degree of training for the judicial office ; in the first 
 place, they had intrusted to them the decision of certain causes to a small 
 amount, which causes were still under the control, to a certain extent, of the 
 zillah judge, who signed the decree, and who confirmed the propriety of their 
 decision in fact, for it was a confirmation in that Avay ; by seeing what took 
 ])lace in the zillah court, and being entrusted to a certain extent with original 
 jurisdiction in that form, they had a means of training which they certainly 
 liave not now. I believe at the present time, since the abolition of the office 
 of registrar, they assume an appellate jurisdiction without ever having exer- 
 cised an original jurisdiction at all ; that I am quite satisfied is a great defect, 
 and must be a great defect in all judicial training; whether that defect could 
 be now su])plic(l by ))lacing them, not as assistants to the zillah judge, who does 
 not exercise an original jurisdiction, but only an a])pellate jurisdiction, but as 
 assistants in some form to the principal Sudder Ameens, or to the Sudder 
 Ameens; I am unable to say further than this, that I am disposed to think, if there 
 were not the political objection to it, of placing them in subordination to a native, 
 they would in that way, under some; of the able judges (as I am infornu-d 
 some of them are) in the native courts, acquire a knowledge of the adminis- 
 tration of justice, which would be of great imjiortance, namely, by seeing 
 how the natives are dealt with by the peo])le who uiulerstand them best, and in 
 that way they would fit themselves to a certain extent for judicial employ- 
 ments. I am of opinion, that having once entered into the judicial service, 
 let the training be of what kind it may, they should continue in tlie judicial 
 service. I am satisfied that the interchange between the collector and the 
 judge is not a satisfactory system. I am quite aware that the collector exercises 
 (jKdfii judicial functions, and that there is something like a form of procedure 
 before the collector, but that is not the main business of his office, and I am 
 
 of
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 173 
 
 of opinion, that havine; once entered into a judicial course they should con- Riylit Hon. 
 tinuc in it, and look for their reward in that, hraneh of tlic service. s^'r I'dKard Hi,an. 
 
 '2133. Your opinion is that as a first means of trainiuj^, it is desirable they 
 
 should act with the collector? — As assistants under the collector. '** March 18^3. 
 
 2134. But that afterwards when appointed to a judicial authority, there 
 should be no subsequent removal to the situation of collector .' — That is my 
 view ; I express these views with great diffidence, because I really am not fami- 
 liar, like the civil servants, with the jjroceediiigs in the interior. 
 
 iii3,'5. What situation could a Euroi)ean occupy with a native judge? — He 
 might be an assistant with a limited jurisdiction, as he acted as registrar, or 
 assistant registar, with a delegated jurisdiction by the zillah judge iti former 
 days, his decision being confirmed by the zillah judge. If i)laced with aSudder 
 Ameen, he might have a jurisdiction in cases of small amount, and his decision 
 might receive confirmation in the same form as the zillah jiulge gave confirma- 
 tion to the decision of the registrar in former days ; but I am (juite aware that 
 to that there may be considered to exist the political objection that it would he 
 placing him in subordination to a native. 
 
 •213(1. Do you believe that the administration of justice would be imj)roved 
 in India, by the selection of barristers from England and from India for that 
 pin-jiosc ? — I do not think so ; barristers from England, I presume, could not go 
 out until perhaps of the age of 25 ; they would hardly be barristers till that 
 time ; I do not know what would tempt many barristers of that age to proceed 
 to India, because it is quite clear that upon their first arrival in that country, 
 they would be quite incompetent to fill the offices of judges in the interior. 
 The first thing they have to learn, of course, is the native languages, which 
 would not be so easily acquired at that age as at the earlier age at which civil 
 servants proceed to India ; they would have no opportunity of acquiring that 
 species of judicial training to which 1 have before alluded ; namely, becoming 
 familiar with the natives in the transaction of business in the various ways in 
 which civil servants obtain that familiarity in the office of the collector. Not 
 possessing this knowledge of the languages, nor this familiarity with the man- 
 ners and usages and habits of the natives, 1 do not see how they could become 
 efficient judges in the interior of the country ; it is not the knowledge of the 
 science of tlie law which is so much required in the Mofussil courts ; it is the 
 administrative art whicb is so required, and that can only be founded on a 
 familiar knowledge of the people, their manners and customs. It is facts that 
 the court have principally to deal with ; in dealing with facts in a country 
 like India, you are surrounded with infinitely more difficulties than you are 
 here. In the Supreme Court the opportunities and power of dealing with 
 facts are greater than in the Mofussil courts in one respect ; the judge in 
 the Supreme Court, indeed, is unacquainted with the native languages ; the 
 greater part of the witnesses are natives speaking the native language, but 
 before a witness is produced in that court he is carried to the office of the 
 attorney ; the attorney has under him a principal native manager, that native 
 manager is familiar with the English and the vernacular languages ; he sifts the 
 witness in the office, and he communicates the result of that to the attorney. 
 The attorney coninmnicates it to the barrister. The witness is called in court 
 after all this preliminary sifting, he is then examined in court in his own 
 language, by interpreters, who in my time were men of extraordinary ability, 
 and he is cross-examined of course in the same way ; and after that sifting from 
 the commencement at the attorney's office and his examination and cross- 
 examination, the judge has very constantly the greatest possible difficulty in 
 coming to a conclusion upon the evidence so sifted. Now what would be the 
 position of an English barrister in the IMofussil, totall}' devoid of all those aids 
 and without the information which the civil servants acquire by the species of 
 training to which I before alluded ? 
 
 2 1 37. Should there be a power of selecting barristers in India who performed 
 their duties satisfactorily? — I think if the Sudder and Supreme Courts were 
 amalgamated in the manner I have mentioned, and if, as 1 am tohl now is the 
 case, there are barristers practising in the Sudder Court who ha\e a knowledge 
 of the native languages and experience in conducting the causes sent by appeal 
 from the Mofussil, with such practice and with such knowledge of the native 
 languages, it is possible that you might be able to select from such a bar, occa- 
 sionally, persons fitted to be judges in the Mofussil. 
 
 0.10. Y 3 :213s. Those
 
 174 
 
 MI MUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN HEFORE THE 
 
 Riglv. Hon 2138. Those facilities do not exist at pi-esenr ?— Barristers are now coin- 
 
 Sir Ediiard Ryan, mencing to practise in the Sadder Court. The mode of proceeding in the 
 
 Sudder Court has recently been very niucli changed, and the change in the mode 
 
 18 March 1853. ^f . ^-opedm-p will be found to fav^ilitate the amalgamation of the Supreme and 
 the Company's Courts. Formerly the course was this ; an appeal from the 
 .Mofussil Court was carried to a single jud2;e, sitting apart from the others, in 
 the Sudder Court ; he considered the casein the first instance ; if he agreed with 
 the court below the decision was confirmed, and it went no fiuther; if he dif- 
 fered from the court below it was then carried to another judge ; if he accorded 
 with hiiH, I bcdieve I am correct in stating that the :iecision was then reversed; 
 if he differed it was referred to a third judge. In that mode the appellate 
 court conducted its business till recently ; now three of the judges ia the 
 Sudder Court sit together; they decide by the majority; they have the pro- 
 ceedings translated, they have the points at issue agreed on, and having the 
 points at issue agreed on, they hear the counsel in English and they give their 
 decisions in English, so that the course of procedure in the Sudder Court in 
 recent times has been very much changed. This practice would facilitate the 
 amalgamation of the two courts, and has prepared, and is preparing the judges 
 of that court for the adoptinn of a mode of procedure assimilated to that of the 
 Queen's Court in Calcutta. I believe the Sudder Court, as at present consti- 
 tuted, contains several very efficient judges. 
 
 -'1.59. Do you concur in the opinion which has been expressed, that the 
 natives have, generally speaking, perfect confidence in the integrity and incor- 
 ruptibilitv of the English judges - — 1 have not a sufficient personal knowledge 
 of their views to express au}^ satisfactory opinion upon that subject. 
 
 2140. Are the Com.mittee to gather from what has fallen from you, that with 
 the improvements which have already been introduced into the mode of 
 examination of the civil servants for judicial stations, subject to the improve- 
 ment in training which you have mentioned, the present system of sending 
 out civil servants is sufficient to ensure competent persons for exercising the 
 office of judges .' — If justice were to be administered in India with all the for- 
 malities and technieahties of procedure with which it is administered in the 
 courts in England or in the Supreme Court, of course the}- would require 
 more training in England than they now receive for that purpose ; but my 
 general impression of the administration of justice by the Company's courts 
 is, tliat upon the whole they arrive at the right conclusion, although the 
 method of i)rocedure is cumbrous, complicated and overlaid, and not very 
 easily disentangled : I am speaking of their proceedings from the knowledge 
 that I have acquired in the Judicial Committee. That is the only knowledge 
 which I have of the proceedings of the Mofussil courts. 
 
 2141. Mr. Elliot.']^ Do not you think that the difficulty which you have 
 described to exist, in regard to sending barristers from this country to qualify 
 themselves for judgeships in the .Mofussil, would in some degree apply to the 
 judges who would be sent from this country to sit in the Sudder, provided they 
 were to be sent, as I understand you to suggest, into the Mofussil, to hold 
 circuits and decide cases on the spot ? — 1 only thought of Queen's judges 
 exercising any jurisdiction in the Mofussil, in the case of trials of British 
 subjects in particular cases, of perhaps, considerable ])olitical importance ; such 
 cases have occasionally arisen. The English judge would, in those cases, havi* 
 to be accompaTiicd l)y an interpreter, who would be necessary for the same pur- 
 pose for which he is obliged to use him now in the Supreme Court. 
 
 •2142. Still he would be deHcient in that knowledge of the natives, and 
 their character and hai)its, which yon have described as being so requisite 
 to the office of a judge in the Mofussil ? —He would not be more ignorant 
 of them than he is when lie sits in the Supreme Court and tries native cases 
 there. 
 
 2143. Do not you think tliat the re-establishment of the Registrar's Court 
 would be a much better mode of bringing up young judicial officers than any 
 otluT means which can be suggested? — I am unable to venture an opinion 
 upon the propri<'ty of restoring the Registi'ars' Courts. I do not reallj^ know 
 all the grounds upon which they were aljolished, as they were during the time 
 of Lord WiUiam Bentinck, I believe. 
 
 2144. Sir ,/. H<)(j(j.'] In the case to which you have alluded, is it your 
 ojjinion that British suljjects resident in the interior, should be subjected, like 
 
 any
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN I KRIUTOKIKS i;-; 
 
 any other persons, to the jurisdiction of the Mofussil Courts ? — Certainly ; i)ro- itiglu Hon. 
 vided a jjroper code of laws were established for their trial. " Sir Edunrd Ri/an. 
 
 •J14,'',. Assuming that the Legishiti\e Council were considerably extended, so 
 
 as to include the judges of the Supreme Court, and the judges of the Sudder '^ Murch 1853. 
 Dewanny, and one or two members of the 13oard of Revenue, the Advocate- 
 general, and perhaps the secretaries of the (iovernment, are you of opinion that 
 it woidd be fully competent to deal with all legislation in India?— All the cur- 
 rent legislation in India. 
 
 2146. Do not you think that that body, so constructed, would be quite com- 
 petent to take into consideration and deal with all the documents which you 
 have suggested the expediency of referring to a commission in this country - — 
 I do not think they would be so competent to dispose of all those scshemes 
 which have been proposed by the Law Commissioners, and which have been so 
 well sifted in India, and upon which so many opinions have been expressed, 
 as the commission which 1 have ventured to sketch out in this country 
 would be. 
 
 1^147. Would the consideration of those subjects involve any more difficulty 
 than attaches to all other important matters of legislation, which must con- 
 stantly present themselves to the consideration of the Council ? — The amalga- 
 mation of the Supreme and Sudder Courts, the establishment of a code of laws, 
 all codification being a subject of extreme difficulty, the carrying out this system 
 of courts, subordinate and criminal, it being in fact a whole system for a 
 great empire, 1 think are subjects which ought to be considered by the most 
 competent persons you can procure for such a purpose ; I do not think tliat the 
 persons in India whom the Honourable Member has named, able as they may 
 be, would be so competent as some great jurists in this country (I sav nothing 
 of retired Indian judges), and some of the civil servants who formed a portion 
 of that commission, very distinguished men, and who have for years applied 
 their attention to these subjects as well as Mr. Cameron, who was legislative 
 member of t ouncil and a member of that commission. 
 
 2148. The Supreme Court now, in its chief, has one of the most accomplished 
 jurists of the day, has not it? -No doubt Sir Lawrence Peel is a most able 
 person in every way. 
 
 2149. Sir T. H. Maddcck.'] You have alluded to the instructions under 
 which the Law Commission was formed, and the subjects of its inquiry, and 
 you ha^ e stated that instead of following the course which had been laid down 
 by the Act of Parliament, it employed itself first and exclusively in preparing 
 a criminal code ; can you state whether the members of the Law Commission 
 did that of their own authority, or whether they were directed by the Govern- 
 ment of India to take that course? — 1 believe they were instructed by the 
 Government of India to take that course. The Act of Parliament provides that 
 the Government of India shall instruct them as to the subjects they are to 
 consider, and as to the places which they are to visit. 
 
 2150. Would you sanction the amalgamation of the Supreme Court with 
 the Sudder Court, of which you have given a favourable opinion, before 
 the laws can be codified which must direct their future administration ? — If the 
 commission which I propose were established, of course they would consider 
 the whole system, both the codification and the system of the courts, but I 
 see no reason why the courts should not be amalgamated before such codes 
 were carried out ; I think they might be. 
 
 ai.ji. It would be necessary then to establish a distinct subordinate court 
 in the presidency towns ? — I think so, for which there is a scheme prepared. 
 
 0.10. Y 4
 
 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mar lis, b° die Apnlis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baiinsr. 
 
 Sir R. 11. 1 MO lis. 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 Mr. Macaulay. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Mr. S|jooner. 
 Viscount Jocelyn. 
 ]Mr. Cobdeu. 
 Mr. Labouchere. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Sir T. H. Maddock. 
 
 Sir Cbarles Wood. 
 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 
 Sir .Limes W. Hogo;. 
 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 
 Mr. Bankes. 
 
 Mr. Herri es. 
 
 Mr. Newdegate. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 
 Mr. J. Fiizgerald. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., ix the Chair. 
 
 Sir George Russell Clerk, k.c.b., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 is'iY G. R. Clerh, 21 52. Cliairmmi.'] FROM the distinguished situations you have held in 
 K.C.B. India, and which you have previously stated to the Committee, you may be 
 
 ; able to afford us some valuable information as to the mode of the administi'a- 
 
 5 April 1853. |.j()jj of justice in the non-regulation provinces ? — The essential difference between 
 the administration of justice in the non-regulation provinces and in the regulation 
 ])rovinces is its being in the former dispensed through fewer hands. In fact, 
 there not being so many European officers to employ, it is indispensable that the 
 administration of justice should be, in the non-regulation provinces, somewhat 
 more summar}^ in process and more prompt in execution than it is in the regu- 
 lation provinces. The result perhaps is, that it is as satisfactory to the jieople 
 at large as the more intricate system in the regulation provinces. 
 
 21,53. It is more prompt; is it likewise as equitable in your opinion ?— As 
 equitable, I think, because greater reliance is placed on the co-operation of the 
 natives themselves. That is indispensable, because the appointed officers in the 
 non-i'egulation provinces, whether native or European, would not themselves 
 have sufficient time to hear all cases in their own persons. 
 
 2154. In what way are the natives employed in the administration of justice 
 in the non-regulation jirovinces ? — They assist materially in purposes of police. 
 
 21.5,5. Under the guidance or superintendence of a European magistrate ? — 
 Under the guidance of a Commissioner, or a Commissioner's assistant, or a 
 magistrate. 
 
 2 1 .56. Has that police system been efficient, do you think ? — I think, generally 
 speaking, the police system which has prevailed in India from time immemorial 
 has been effif:i(>nt ; more so perhaps than anything we have introduced as a 
 substitute for it. 
 
 21.57, You are speaking of the non-regulation provinces alone ? — Yes ; in the 
 British jM-ovinccs where the native institution of ])olice still subsists, it is not 
 made the Ijest use of. It is paid for but neglected, and has fallen into disuse 
 in favour of an expensive ])olice of our own which has been added to it, and 
 whicli the oflic'crs of the Britisli Government in general i)refer to work, as being 
 more after our own form. That is the case, espi-cially in the west of India, 
 where you have two forms of police, one very costly, wliich has fallen into 
 neglect, l)ut wliich is still jtaid for indirectly in the villages, principally in kind, 
 hut still consuming so much revenue ; the other being a paid police, similar to 
 that of the North -Western Provinces, which is most used by the magistrates. 
 
 •.;i58. What is the system which you say is paid for but not used ? — It is the 
 ancient liereditary jjolice of India, numbering in the Bombay Presidency 
 2.'),000 men I suppose. 
 
 2159. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 / / 
 
 ■2159. Is that sanctioned ;uk1 ])ai(l for I)}- the Ciovenunent of Hoinljay ? — ^h C. R. Clerk 
 Yes; tliat is to say, they enjoy an liereditary payment, principally in kind, at k.c. b. 
 
 the harvest time, hut they are seldom seen or heard of ; the}- arc of little use 
 
 as police at present. 5 April 1853. 
 
 •21 60. Are their services never called for? — -They were not at the time 
 I knew the IJomhay Presidency; I am not aware what may have occurred since, 
 but it struck mc that there was a very imnecessary expenditure for police ])ur. 
 poses in consequence of our preference for our own system in those regvdation 
 provinces. I thiidv we have lost much by disregarding the ancient institutions 
 of the ])eople. 
 
 21 (ii. You consider the system of police in the non-regulation provinces as 
 superior to that adopted in other parts of India r- Yes, I think so on other 
 accounts than tliat ; the magistrate or Conimissioner's assistant in the non- 
 regulation provinces would have more authority, and if he is a competent 
 officer, the more he has the better. 
 
 2162. Is not that liable to abuse? — Not if he is a well selected officer. After 
 all it depends upon the administration of the Government in India; if proper 
 men are selected and arc fully competent to e.xercise those powers which under 
 native governments a native police officer would exercise, it is best, and it is 
 safe to entrust them with such powers. A man is none the worse for being a 
 European officer ; but he has not half the authority which an officer in the same 
 position under the native government would exercise ; he must attend to forms 
 
 - and technicalities as regards evidence ; he would not be allowed to admit 
 evidence before him which had been taken by his native subordinate at a dis- 
 tance, though it was countersigned by all the most respectable heads of villages 
 in the district, if a criminal chooses to contradict that evidence when brought 
 before him ; he is also checked in an unnecessary degree by appeals, and much 
 valuable time is lost in his having to attend to a nudtiplicity of written forms. 
 
 2163, You are understood to say that you consider the police arrangements 
 more efficient and less costly in the non -regulation provinces than in the pre- 
 sidencies ? — I thiidv so ; I gave the instance of the Bombay Presidency, where 
 we have two systems, both costly, but only one made use of, the other being- 
 preserved because it has come down associated with hereditary rights. 
 
 21(14. \Yould you recommend the application of the police system now 
 adopted in the non-regulation provinces to other parts of India as it exists, or 
 with what alterations, if any ? — I am not competent to say what is the precise 
 system now adopted in the non-regulation provinces ; it is some years since I 
 left India, but from what 1 have heard of the administration of the Punjaub 
 and some other of the non-regulation provinces, I should say that efficiency is 
 on the side of the non-regulation provinces ; justice is more prompt ; there are 
 not so many needless technicalities to obstruct its i)rogress. 
 
 2105. Are there any improvements in the system now adopted in the non- 
 regulation provinces which you would suggest r — I am not certain how far the 
 revenue officers are employed exclusively on revenue duties, but 1 believe, 
 generallv speaking, they exercise the powers both of magistrate and collector ; 
 that 1 think is advantageous, provided in the subordinate native department there 
 is an officer who can attend exclusively to police ; by police duties I mean duties 
 separate from magisterial duties. 
 
 2160. Will you explain exactly what is the present system in the non-regu- 
 lation provinces ? — I do not know what may be the present system ; I am 
 speaking of the system which I knew when I was last in India. 
 
 2i()7. W ill you give a general view of the system which then prevailed ? — 
 It is the system of having recourse to the hereditary obligations of the zemin- 
 dars or heads of villages to furnish information and co-operate witli the Execu- 
 tive on all occasions ; never absolving them from that responsibility at the risk 
 of the loss of their lands and their rights. 
 
 2168. Yiscount /ot-e ////;.] How is that system carried out; whom does the 
 zemindar employ ? — That varies in the different provinces without the limits of 
 the regulations. In some eases he will employ his own hereditary watchmen ; . 
 in others, again, we have abandoned that system, and introduced our own j^aid 
 police. Thei'e he would have recourse to the paid jiolice, and only afford them 
 the adva,ntage of his intelligence ; he, of course, having the best information in 
 the country. The landowners have infornnition which no one else can possess. 
 
 2i6g. CItainuan.] Eor any robbery, would he be answerable? — Yes, in some 
 0,10. Z of
 
 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. K. Clerk, of the iion-vegulation provinces ; I believe there are no fixed rules. I have had 
 
 K. c. B. no opportunity of learning whether the sj-stem at present pursued in the Punjaub, 
 
 "T ~r~Z' the latest acquisition, is different from that of the other non-i'eaulation pro- 
 
 j April 1053. • , , 1 1 01 
 
 vnices to the eastward or to the westward. 
 
 21 70. Would a European Commissioner decide whether a robbery had taken 
 place, assess the damage, and levy it from the zemindar ? — That would have 
 been the process in the non-regulation provinces, where I resided. I adopted, 
 with modifications, the system I found existing there, according to which the 
 zemindar alwa)'S binds himself in a bond to make good eleven times the amount 
 of loss. That is the old law of India, with respect to all the property plundered 
 within the precincts of his village. 
 
 2171. Mr. Macanl((i/.^ That is only as a penalty? — It is as a penalty held 
 over him, but seldom or never enforced strictly ; he knows not only what passes 
 in his village, but throughout the limits attached to his village. If a stranger 
 passes his village, it is known to him before nightfall ; if anything wTong occurs 
 after that, he ascertains who that stranger was. 
 
 2172. Chairman. \ That is the system pursued where compensation can be 
 afforded by the repayment of money ; in the case of murder or other crimes, 
 what are their duties ? — They are bound to lend their assistance to ascertain 
 who the criminals were, and where they have gone if they have fled. 
 
 2173. Are they efficient for that purpose r — They ai'e efficient, because they 
 have the best information. 
 
 2 1 74. Mr. Ellice.'] You stated that there were two systems of police, one esta- 
 blished b}' the Government, the other that conducted by the zemindars claiming 
 an hereditary right to exercise that police ; supposing an attempt was made to 
 save the expense of one of those systems, by substituting a police employed by 
 the Government entirely, in place of the double system which now exists, what 
 effect would that produce upon the position and tlie relative responsibility of 
 the zemindars ? — It must depend upon the zemindai's whether you could work 
 efficiently the system of hereditary police. 
 
 2175. Chairnian^ With regard to the administration of justice in civil 
 oases in the non-regulation provinces, has that been in your opinion satis- 
 factory : — I think it is fully as satisfactory as the administration of civil justice 
 in the regulation provinces, if not more so, and for the same reason, that the 
 officers there are obliged for want of time to fall back again upon the assistance 
 of the natives of the best character in the country ; the}^ devolve the decision of 
 many more cases upon arbitrators ; they are compelled to do so, and they find 
 the result satisfactory to themselves, and satisfiictory to the people. Questions 
 of caste are more satisfactorily decided by the members of a caste than in any 
 other way ; great banking questions which no European could get to the bottom 
 of for years, are satisfactorily disposed of by a committee of bankers ; hnt in 
 tiie regulation provinces those things come regularly upon the file, and are 
 worked out ; the judge has no alternative ; he must receive them, and work 
 them through the courts. 
 
 2176. It is a system of arbitration in the non-regulation provinces? — It is 
 often so ; the courts are open at the same time to them if tiiey prefer it ; but 
 sensible people do not anywhere prefer to go into courts if they can decide a 
 thing by arbitration. 
 
 2177. From that arbitration they can, if they please, appeal to a court? — 
 Ihey can. 
 
 2 1 78. But such appeals seldom take place? — Very rarely indeed, in my 
 experience. 
 
 2179. After arbitration they can appeal to a court ? — In the non-regulation 
 provinces they can. 
 
 2i8u. Mr. Maciiulau.] Do they not often enter into some agreement not to 
 go to a court ? — I have never felt it necessary to take that j)ledge from them ; 
 I felt so confident that they never would appeal ; I have not known above one 
 case in fifty aj}pealed from arbitration, though with every possible facility 
 enjoyed by the parties for appealing if they pleased. 
 
 21 Si. C/iiilnit(iii.] Supi)ose an appeal takes jilace, to what court can they first 
 ajipeal? — When I was in the non-r(!gulation provinces, they might ajipeal from 
 my decision to the Commissioner at Delhi, who was my superior. It does not 
 occur to me that cases came back to me from him, so that 1 infer they were not 
 appealed. 
 
 2182. The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 179 
 
 2182. The Commissioner at Dellii would have referred the case to you for Hh- G . R. Cieiii. 
 re- consideration ? — He would have had the whole case befoi-e him on his circuit. k. c.b. 
 
 ciS;}. Su])i)osing he did not agree with you, what course wouhl he have 
 
 taken r — lie niight have reversed my decision. 5 April 1853. 
 
 21 84. Mr. JJdcauiay.] The Commissioner at Delhi was a political officer, 
 was not her— Me was both political and judicial. 
 
 2185. He exercised judicial functions, but he had had no special judicial 
 training?, had her — Mr. Metcalfe was the Commissioner at the time 1 am 
 speaking of; Mr. Eraser was another (Commissioner; l)oth men of much judieial 
 experience. 
 
 2180. Clutinnan.~\ After arbitration they could aj)peal to you, and if your 
 decision was not satisfactorv, they could appeal to the Commissioner at Dellii ? 
 —Yes 
 
 2187. Supposing his decision not to be satisfactory, was there a further 
 appeal ? — The parties would have made themselves heard by the highest 
 authorities. 
 
 2188. The decision of the Commissioner would be considered final ? — If a 
 case of the kind had occurred, they would not have rested satisfied with the 
 Commissioner's decision ; they would have gone to the (iovernment, and 
 appealed ; the people of the up-country are never silent under oppression. 
 
 2189. How did you select the courts of arbitration of which you have 
 spoken: — I recommended the parties to select their own arbitratoi-s. 
 
 2190. Viscount Joceli/n.] Did you select any yourself ? — Only in very difficult 
 cases ; when I thought they would be divided, I appointed one on my own 
 part. 
 
 2191. Mr. Macatday.'] Is there any way in which a case following that 
 course, and going from the arbitrators to the Commissioner at Delhi, could be 
 brought before the Queen in Council r — I should imagine if persevered in, the 
 appeal might go forward to England; from the Commissioner at Delhi an appeal 
 would be to the authorities in Calcutta. 
 
 2192. The appeal would not have been to the Sudder Court? — No, to the 
 Governor-general ; it was altered subsequently to my time ; but it was originally 
 to the Governor-general. 
 
 2 '93. Was there any instance of a judicial appeal of that sort coming home 
 to England '— I have never heard of one. 
 
 2194. Cliainnan.'] You have had opportunities of comparing the relative 
 merits of the administration of justice in our own territories and in the native 
 states ; what is your general opinion upon those relative merits ? — My opinion, 
 perhaps, is formed very much upon the opinions I have heard expressed by the 
 natives themselves. Our administration of criminal justice is very much 
 applauded for the zeal of our officers, their devotion to their duties, and their 
 integrity ; at the same time it is thought not to be such as to repress crime to 
 the degree that might be done, owing to mistaken lenienc}^ and excess of forms 
 enabling criminals to escape. That, I think, is the objection to our criminal 
 system. With respect to our administration of civil justice, it is ridiculed by 
 well-informed natives, owing to the tediousness, delay and expense of proce- 
 dure, the introduction of a variety of tecluiicalities, the field allowed for 
 chicanery, and, generally, the tendency to draw cases into court that never 
 ought to go so far ; in short, all those respects in which cost, and mysteries, and 
 absurdities of law in this country have been adopted, are permitted in our 
 administration of law in India. I should say that the lower orders, as far as 
 the administration of criminal justice is concerned, are happier under the 
 British administration than under the native administration ; but with respect to 
 the administration of civil justice, I think the reverse is a good deal the case. 
 
 219,3. Mr. Mdcaulaij .\ You are instituting a pai'allel between the native states 
 and the regulation provinces r — Yes. 
 
 2196. Do you think that there is any superiority in the administration of 
 civil justice in the native states over its adiiiinistration in the non-regulation 
 provinces ? —I think there may still be some advantage in favour of the adminis- 
 tration of justice in the native states. 
 
 2197. But not to the same extent 'i — No ; but native governments have the 
 means of commanding more hearty co-operation on the part of the respectable 
 natives than we have ; they can confer privileges on men of character such as we 
 have it not in our power to otter. 
 
 o.io. z 2 2198. Mr.
 
 i8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. R. Clerk, 2198. Mr. A/cnigles.] In case of a wrong being done by tbe Government 
 K. c. B. such as an over exaction of revenue, can the parties obtain any practical 
 
 redress from the courts in the nntive states ? — They are never silent till they 
 
 5 April 1853. gg{ redress, and they exact it from the chief. 
 
 2199. How do they obtain it? — By stating their grievances to the appointed 
 authorities. In some states where the system is ill regulated, the aggrieved 
 will nevertheless make themselves heard ; and if not listened to by subordinate 
 authorities, will scruple not to stop their chief by seizing his horse's bridle, or 
 bj^ other clamorous means. 
 
 2200. Chairman.] From your evidence, the Committee understand that you 
 believe the natives are better satisfied with a more arbitrary administration of 
 justice, because it is prompt, and that the course which has been adopted in the 
 regulation provinces in consequence of the necessary forms which have to be 
 gone through, rendering the administration of justice more tardy, has been less 
 satisfactory to the natives: — Inasmuch as it is tardy, I think so. 
 
 2201. With regard to Bombay, of which you were Governor, was it your 
 opinion when you were Governor that the European judges were competent to 
 their duties, and to the authority they exei-cised ? — There were some among the 
 judges very competent, and some perhaps much otherwise ; that is inevitable at 
 present. 
 
 2202. Do vou consid(n" that they wei'e so incompetent, that substantial justice 
 was not administered in the Presidency of Bombay ? — I saw no instances of 
 people suffering from the incompetency of the judges, but there certainly was a 
 want of men properly qualified to sit on the Bench in the Bombay Presidency ; 
 that I felt in selecting officers for the position, and therefore, of course, I appre- 
 hended that the people might suffer. It is to be inferred that there was a Avant 
 of a due administration of justice, in consequence of our not being able to select 
 those who were sufficiently qualified to fill the office of judge. 
 
 2203. Do you attribute the want of competent men to the fact, that the most 
 eminent of the civil servants were employed in the revenue dejjartment ? — I 
 think they generally preferred the revenue department ; but there were not 
 enough. 
 
 2204. Not enough in number, do you mean r — Not enough of the requisite 
 qualifications desirous of serving in the judicial line. 
 
 2205. Is there any remedy for that evil which occurs to your mind, which 
 you would suggest ? — The first remedy, of course, is for the Government to be 
 very particular in their selection of men for the bench. I should hope, that 
 Governors generally were influenced by that desire ; but 1 imagine that it is 
 often a cause of inefficiency, that there is not sufficient precaution exercised in 
 selecting the most fit persons. .Another evil is tiie allowing them to retire from 
 it in order to take up revenue appointments. 
 
 220(). Would that deficiency be remedied by a strict examination, or by the 
 establishment of a college in India ; or what means would you suggest for the 
 improvement in efficiency of the officers ? — It did not occur to me that the mate- 
 rial miirht not be sufficient, if you could take it from other de})artmeuts ; but 
 the difficulty lay there, tliat many men were employed in other departments 
 who would have efficiently presided on the bench. The remedy that suggested 
 itself to my mind was to relieve those from magisterial and revenue duties, 
 enabling the Governn.ent to select fi'om a larger field for the bench. 
 
 2207. Is it your opinion, that uniting the collector's duty with the judicial 
 duty at first, is a hinderance to the aetpiirement of the necessary knowledge and 
 ca))acity for the exercise of judicial authority subseciueutly ': — 1 think the 
 separation objectionable. 1 cannot conceive a man becoming fully acquainted 
 with the languages and the customs of the jjcople, without mixing among them 
 as a collector or a collector's assistant ; jjerhaps better as a collector's assistant 
 for a certain term of years. Besides the advantage of knowing the natives and 
 their languages, he jjcrhaps more readily acquires a knowledge of their 
 differences, their tenures, and questions of custom and caste, as an assistant 
 collector, than in any other sphere in India. After all, it is a question of num- 
 bers ; judges are n.ot to lie found, unless you resort to the best magisterial and 
 revenue officers, and take, those who have the i-equisite experience and other 
 (lualifications. 
 
 221 S. Mr. Macanldy.'] Docs not the happiness of the body of the people of 
 India dejjcnd quite as mucli upon the efficiency of tlie collector of a district 
 
 as
 
 SELECT COMMTTTKE ON INDIAN TF.RRITORIEft. 181 
 
 as upon that of a judge r — It certainly, generally speaking, depends more siv G. I! Clerk 
 
 "pOn it- K.C.'l.^ ' 
 
 2j()(j. Would there be any real advantage to the body of the people of India 
 
 in giving them even very good judges, if that were done at iho, expense of •' -^1"'' '3j3- 
 
 leaving them only inefficient men to he collectors? — I was not proposing that 
 
 the residue should be ineftieient ; I meant to supply their places with others 
 
 and there I think the difficulty lies. 1 would i)refer introducing men to supply 
 
 the existing deficiency on the bench from among a class of men who know 
 
 India and the people well, to introducing them from any other class. Then 
 
 arises the question, how to fill up the vaciancics so occasioned, and that is only 
 
 to be done efficientl}', I think, by selecting men from the army for maiiisterial 
 
 duties. 
 
 2210. Would not an improvement be more likely to be jjroduced, if in the 
 original appointment of the young men who go out to India, those were selected 
 who were the flower of the youth of England, the most intelligent and the most 
 highly educated r — Those who go out to undertake military or civil duties in 
 India are generally well educated. In some instances they are highly educated 
 but they are always educated young men. 
 
 2-311. If some system of competition could be devised by which you could 
 insure tliat every young man who went out in the civil service was "above the 
 average, would not the effect of that be, that both in the revenue and in the 
 judicial dejiartments, you would probably have a su])ply of better public 
 servants? — I think not better public servants; they might be more talented 
 men ; they are now drawn from that class of society, than which I know of 
 none who educate their children in moi'e honourable principles. I mean as a 
 class, I think they are pecuharly suitable, and when in India, tiie characteristic 
 of both military and civil servants is integrity. They look upon peculation and 
 perquisites as tilth. They are now proclaimed to be ignorant and stupid, but 
 why they should be so I cannot conceive ; they have great experience, wcrking 
 up as they do, through a gradation of offices, and hence in the provinces of 
 British India is to be found as contented a people as you will find in anv other 
 jjart of India. I speak of the lower orders and the vniddle classes. 
 
 2212. In the majority of cases, have not the men who have made the greatest 
 figure in the civil service been the men who, when young, have been con- 
 sidered as of high jn-omise at Haileybury r — Certainly ; of late years I have 
 heard several instances of that nature ; men highly distinguished at Hailey- 
 bury have iunnediately taken positions in India which they have filled with 
 very great credit, and though I do not think highly of the amount of progress 
 made in Oriental languages at Haileybury, I can call to mind man)- men who 
 have turned out very good linguists in India, who took honours there. 
 
 2213. The power of acquii-ing languages is, I suppose, of the very greatest 
 importance to a servant of the Company ? — It is indispensable to efficiencv. 
 
 2214. is not it probable that as a great part of the education of the young 
 men of England consists in the study of the dead languages, a young man who 
 at 18 is found in competition to be decidedly superior to his rivals in his 
 knowledge of the dead languages, is more likely than the others to become a 
 good Orientalist ? — Certainly ; a man who is exercised in the dead languages 
 will be likely to acquire the Oriental or any other languages with comparative 
 facility. 
 
 2215. Is not it also the case that a young man who has distinguished himself 
 above liis competitors in mathematical science generally brings great i)ower of 
 apprehension and great vigour of mind to any other subject which he may take 
 up, whether it be the law or public business of any kind .- — I should say not 
 necessarily public business in general, but that he would make a good judicial 
 officer. 
 
 2216. Did you ever consider what has been, generally speaking, the success 
 of men early distinguished in mathematics, at the English bar .-—Speaking 
 generally, they have been successful. 
 
 2217. Supposing the course pursued in appointing writers were this, that 
 young men should be selected, say at eighteen years of age, on account of their 
 superiority in those studies which are commonly pursued by the educated 
 j^outh of England, namely, the ancient languages and mathematics, and that 
 the best of them should be sent out to India, is it not probable that you would 
 then have rather a superior class of men intellectually, not to say morally, 
 
 0.10. z 3 from
 
 i82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. Jl. C7ei/l, from \vhoni to choose subsequently your revenue servants and your judicial 
 K.c.B ' servants? — To attain such proficiency it would, I suppose, be necessary that 
 
 they should sjo out at a more advanced period of life. 
 
 5 April 1853. 021 S. Supposing that young men were selected at the age of eighteen upon 
 
 an examination, and were then sent for two years to lay the foundation of 
 Oriental learning at Haileybury, and to pursue there the study of law, political 
 econoniv, and other sciences which are important to a person who is to govern 
 men, would not that be very advantageous ? — It would be a great advantage to 
 
 them. 
 
 •22ig. Do not \ou consider that if young men were selected by competition 
 in that way, and were then sent to Haileybury to pursue for two years the 
 studies peculiarlv intended to fit them for service in India, and were then sent 
 out, you would have a class of public functionaries superior, not in honour or 
 intesritv, but in abihty, to those at present employed ? — If selected either by 
 means of a strict exaniination or by competition. One might produce the 
 effect as mcU as the other. 
 
 2220. Do you conceive that any examination of which the object is merely 
 to let a person jjass, can ever produce so good an effect as an examination in 
 which the l)cst is chosen ?— Perhaps not. 
 
 2221. Is not it always the effort of examiners, whenever the question is 
 whether a young man shall pass or not, to let him pass ? -Yes, often so ; and of 
 his teachers to render him competent to pass. 
 
 2222. Is not there always a good-natured feehng in the examiners, leading 
 them to let a man get through at the lowest point possible? — I do not know 
 that that is universal ; I should think not. 
 
 2223. Is not it quite certain if there is a competition, and only the best is 
 appointed, you will get a good man ? — Certainly. 
 
 2224. Mr. AJ(iiigles.~\ Is not it within your experience that men have become 
 ver)' eminent public servants in India, who have not been distinguished at 
 college, either at Haileybury or in India? — I can recal some instances of men 
 who were not known till they showed themselves in the service. 
 
 2225 Have not you known many instances of that description ? — I have 
 never considered the subject, but there may be many such men. 
 
 22jti. Would your observations upon the state of the judicial bench at 
 Bombay be applicable to your experience in the North- Western Provinces ? — 
 Not in the same degree. 
 
 2227. There was there a larger proportion of able men upon the bench ? — Yes. 
 
 2228. Chairman^] From your experience of the qualifications of those who 
 have been sent out to the civil service in India, are you in favour of the main- 
 tenance of the system of education at Haileybury? — With examinations suffi- 
 cient! v strict, such an institution as Haileybury College is a very necessary one. 
 
 2220. Do you think that an improvement in the administration of justice in 
 India would arise from appointing judges in India, selected from practising 
 barristers in England /—Considering the wants of the jieople, I think decidedly 
 not, and with respect to the introduction of barristers from England, there 
 would l)L' great difficulties ; there is no doubt you would get better judicial 
 knowledge, but barristers worth sending to India Avould not, in a bad climate, 
 be satisfied with the pay or the labour you give a judge in India. 
 
 2230. Sui)posing h(! earned but little here ? — I beheve there is no case in 
 which a barrister of reputation and talent in England would accept such a 
 situation in India with the jjresent salary. 
 
 2231. Mr. Jllacau/aj/.] What is the salary of a zillah judge r— From 2,500 Z. 
 to 3,000 I. a year. 
 
 2232. Sir 7'. //. Maddo<-h.\ One great object must be to have a barrister 
 with a sufficient knowledge of the language ?— Yes ; even supposing he were 
 (lualifiod for the administration of justice, it would take a consideraljle period 
 before he could acquire a sullicient knowledge of the languages and habits of 
 tlie i)eoi)le of India to take his seat upon the bench. A barrister, I presume, 
 would not be considered (jualified for such a situation under the age of 2."> or 
 26. Then having gone to India, he must, to become in any degree acquainted 
 with tlie practice, remain in thi- precincts of the Supreme Court for two or three 
 years more ; no barrister of reputativ)n would sacrifice his prospects here for 
 such a liope of reward, which miglit be about one-fourth of what his income 
 would be here, considering what would be his necessary expenses there. 
 
 2233. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRH OltlES. 1S3 
 
 12233. jNIr. Man(jfles.] Having gone through that process, would he he com- sir (;. R. clerk, 
 peteiit for the duties of the juilioial Ijcncli without having a knowledge of k. c. b. 
 
 revenue affairs, and the hal)its and manners and feelings of the peojtle .' — ; 
 
 Certainly not ; a residence at the presidenc)' would not by any means qualify ^ ^'"'' '^^■''• 
 him for tliat office without some years in tlie interior; he ought, in order to 
 know the people, pass some years in the interior of India. 
 
 •J 234. Mr. MacaitUiij.] Do not you think there would be very considerable 
 danger that if barristers were sent out to occupy judicial seats in India it 
 would become a mere job, and the least efficient part of the English bar would 
 be sent out ? — That would be the effect, I have no doubt. 
 
 2-235. Chairman.'] You mentioned that cases had come to your knowledge 
 where you thouglit that persons who occupied judicial situations in the Presi- 
 dency of Bombay were not altogether competent for their duties ; did that 
 occur likewise in the North-Western Provinces ? — It is so many years shice 
 I was in the North-Westirn Provinces that i do not at this moment re- 
 member any instances ; having been more recently in Bombay, I have in mind 
 instances in which there was difficulty in finding successors on the retirement of 
 judges, or their absence on account of ill health. A colleague of mine there, 
 who was very competent to form an opinion, thought that there was great diffi- 
 culty in finding qualified judges ; 1 then considered how to supply the deficiency, 
 and it occurnd to me that having honest and very efficient men in tlie magis- 
 terial and revenue departments, they might l)e selected, and tliat for magistrates 
 and collectors and deputy collectors you might go the army ; there you find 
 tliose who have been for eight or 10 years in the habit of conversing with the 
 natives of all classes, and who are perfectly fit to be magistrates ; in fact, I 
 desired to revise the whole police system of Bombay, and to put every district 
 under a military commander; I found them there in command of military 
 corps, local police battalions, and on them I proposed to devolve police duties, 
 and in some instances magisterial duties, relieving to that degree the collector 
 and magistrate of those police duties requiring his going round the country, as 
 an efficient police officer ought of course to do ; where a collector and magistrate 
 is exi)ected to look to the police he must be an inefficient police officer, or he 
 must neglect his revenue duties; generally speaking, he \\\\\ give the preference 
 to the revenue duties, and will not be always ready to go here and there in the 
 pursuit of criminals. 
 
 2236. Are the Committee to understand that you carried out that system, or 
 that you only meditated its adoption ? — I proposed to adopt it ; I reported on 
 it, and recommended its introduction as a means of reforming the w^'nole service; 
 but it iias never been carried out, I believe, to this day. 
 
 2237. Will you state to the Committee more in detail what your plan was ; 
 into what districts would you divide the presidency, and what population would 
 you put under each police officer .' — The plan I proposed was to blend the two 
 descriptions of police which I found existing. It was first of all apparent 
 that there was a numerous body of police wiio were made very little use of; 
 they were left in possession of their hereditary pay, which belongs to them for 
 the performance of certain duties. We come in with our English institutions, 
 and despising that which w'e find existing, introduce another class of policemen, 
 subjecting the State of course to a double expenditure. As 1 mentioned before, 
 there is a police existing, and which has existed for thousands of )ears, num- 
 bering 30,000 or 40,000 men. I proposed to relieve the collector in some 
 degree of his police duties, and relieve the native collector also, called a tehsildar 
 in some parts of India, of his duties, by appointing one of his subordinates spe- 
 cially to the police. I found great difficulty for want of that ; criminals were sel- 
 dom traced ; there was no detective police, on account of the reli.niee on the 
 existence of a military corps. After a crime had been perpetrated, I found that 
 the chief native police officer was engaged with his revenue accounts ; that he had 
 iieen occupied perhaps half the night with them, and was not able to move off in 
 pursuit till the morning ; I therefore proposed to transfer one of his suborni- 
 nates to the police duties specially, and to relieve thu European magistrate by 
 devolving all that responsibility, as far as concerned his pohcc duties, upon the 
 military officer commanding the police battalion. Then came the prim-ipal 
 question, what to do with those two services, the hereditary police, thousands 
 of them, and the paid police, called i)eons. or footmen, or watchmen. In the 
 one case, owing to disuse, the hereditary police were less efficient than they 
 
 0.10. z 4 were
 
 i84 MINUTES OF EVJDEN'CE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. R. Cleric, ^vere formerly under the native governments ; in tlie other case the paid poUcc 
 K.c. B. were inefficient, owing to their relying in some measure upon the hereditary 
 
 ~ — ; ■ men ; so that hetwecn the two 1 thought there was a very inefficient police, 
 
 5 April 1853. ^^^ J jpgij.g(j to reform it. I reported the whole case fully, but 1 do not know 
 that the reform has been carried out. 
 
 ■2-2-;iS. By your plan there would be no additional number of Eui'opeans 
 necessary? — None whatever; neither Europeans nor natives; there was no 
 proposal of an increase of any kind so far as I remember. 
 
 2^30. "Would you divide the country into districts? — Yes, as it is now 
 divided ; there is not much fault to find with the districts as to size or extent. 
 
 2240. Viscount Jorrlj/)!.] ^Yould you get rid of the h(>reditary police ? — You 
 cannot do that ; I would get rid of many of the others, and work the hereditary 
 police, because you must pay them. 
 
 2241. Sir C. Wood.] Do you think you could make them efficient ?— There 
 is no reason why they might not be efficient ; they had been efficient for 
 centuries. 
 
 224'_'. INIr. Macaxlay.'] Their pay they must have whether they work or not r 
 — Yes. 
 
 2243. Wiicownt J ocelijn ^ How could you secure the efficiency of that police r 
 — Through their heads, the landowners ; the}' eat the grain of the harvest for 
 those special duties. 
 
 2244. They are paid in grain, are they r — Principally ; some are paid in 
 money ; some in grain ; some in bread at the door besides. 
 
 2245. i\Ir. Mdiiffh'.s:] Do you think you are justified in assuming that they 
 have been efficient for thousands of years ?— I do. 
 
 2246. To take a single case, how do you account for the system of Thugging 
 having reached such a height, and flourished for centuries in India, till we took 
 it in hand recently ? — I assume that the}- were efficient, or they would not have 
 been maintained in their integrity as they always were ; the zemindars would 
 have resumed the compensation for their services. 
 
 2247. May not the fact have been that the rulers were indifferent to the 
 state of the country ? — Judging by what we see of the native Governments, 
 I do not think that is to be inferred ; we see vigorous native Governments. 
 
 224S. How do you account for the existence of Thugging ? — The extraordinary 
 secrecy with which it was carried on was one thing, and another was the 
 universal language they adopted among themselves ; they blinded the authorities, 
 and carried on their crimes at a distance. 
 
 2241). Are you aware that in the Punjaub, where Thuggism was not supposed 
 to exist to any extent, it has prevailed in spite of those police institutions, to 
 such an extent that one single gang has destroyed within the last 10 years no 
 less than 2,000 pei'sons ? — That is since we drove them out of Ilindostan into 
 the Punjaub ; we have been at woi'k at Thuggism for the last 25 years ; 
 I believe it did not exist in the Punjaub a quarter of a century ago. 
 
 2250. Have not v\e hung or transported a great number of them ? — A great 
 many, but there is no doubt that many have gone to the Punjauh from 
 Hindostan. 
 
 2251. Mr. IlanUiKje.'] \Vhat is your opinion as to substituting a military 
 for a civil police in Bengal and the NorthAVestern Provinces ? — I was not aware 
 that it was proposed to do so; I have never seen an exclusively military ]X)lice 
 work very (fficiently ; I have seen it tried, but I do not think it answers so 
 well as employing vill.ige watchmen, and working their superiors up to their 
 responsibilities. 
 
 2252. Would not they in Lower Bengal be ignorant of the Bengalese lan- 
 guage, assuming you recruit your police battalions from other places ? — You 
 would not recruit them from a distance. 
 
 22.'")3. Would a ]5ciigalee be fit to be a sepoy in the ranks of the police 
 battidion ? — Among Bengalese he would ; such corps do exist in the Bengal 
 PresicUiuiy ; the superior grade is the sepoy, then come the peons, and then the 
 zemindars. 
 
 2254. Uo the ])olice battalions in Bombay work well, in your oi)inion ; are 
 they cfHciciit r— They work well as a superior grade in the jjolice, but they 
 would be inefficient if you devolved all the duties of the police \x\wn them ; 
 that is not attempted ; the whole body is composed of three grades, but after 
 all, the real police duties ought to devolve upon the lower grade, who are born 
 
 and
 
 C'crh, 
 
 K. 1 . I . 
 
 SELECT COMIMITTEE ON INDIAN TEiUUTORIES. 185 
 
 and lircd in the villages, and \\\\o know every tliicf and his ancestors, and .sir C; /( 
 every erinie wliieli he has ijerjx'trated ; we now lose that information general!)'. 
 
 ■22')'y Mr. AJaiiiilex.] Is nut there iu central India a very vahiaMe class of 
 
 people called trackers" — Yes. In all sandy soils they are maintained in some 5 April 1853. 
 ^vay ; they have their ])rivilei;es. In some cases they have grain alhjtted to 
 them out of the harvest heap ; in other cases they hold a certain amount of 
 land rent free for that service. In the native states, if they do not efliciently 
 ])erlorm their duties, they would he liable to ])unishnu'nt, or to lose their land 
 allotnii.nt, or if supi)ose(l to connive at robbery, to lose their ears. 
 
 ■22')G. Does not that class of men occasionally perform very extraordinary 
 services in detecting crime r — Very im])()rtant services. 
 
 22j7. Is not it the law in the native states, that if they trace a Ijody of 
 robbers into a village, and the village cannot trace them out on the opposite 
 side, that village is answerable i — Yes, and very pro])erly so, because, when 
 a zemindar obtains the village lands, he accepts it with those conditions, that 
 he shall be so answerable. 
 
 2 2;";8. Mr. Alaran/di/.] Have you any efficient mode of compelling these 
 hereditary jjoliee to do their duty ; you say a native prince cuts their ears off? 
 — Or he resumes their land. 
 
 22.59. Could we resume their land with facility? — Not directly. 
 
 22G0. What mode of coercion would you employ in case of their inefficiency ? 
 The heads of the villages accept the settlement of their villages with the under- 
 standing that those obligations devolve upon them. 
 
 2261. What course would a zemindar take with a watchman who did not 
 turn out when his services were required, or with a tracker who took a bribe ? 
 — He would resinne his land, or make his land over to a more efficient member 
 of the fraternity. 
 
 2262. Upon the zemindar himself, what would be tlie nature of our control r 
 — We ought to resume his land and privileges. 
 
 2263. Mr T. II. Maddock.] How can they be described as hereditary, if a 
 village watchman is liable, upon any inefficiency in the performance of his 
 duties, to be ousted fiom his land ? — The right is only hereditary on that 
 condition. 
 
 2264. Viscount Joceli/H.] Upon the whole, do you think that where the 
 arrangement existing under the regulations is in force, its results show it to be 
 inferior in value to the whole system of the village arrangement ? — I think it is 
 less efficient on that account ; that we have not the hearty co-operation of the 
 heads of the villages ; we set them aside in a great degree. 
 
 2265. Mr. Hume.] Are the Committee to understand from you, that under 
 the zemindary settlement the maintenance of the police is provided for as part 
 of the arrangement, and that you would avail yourself of that original settle- 
 ment, and carry on the police through the heads of the viUages ? — Yes. 
 
 2266. Is not the objection which you have taken to our introduction of new 
 modes of ])olice this, that we no longer avail ourselves of the resjjonsibility 
 which attached to the parties who carried on the ancient police of the country 
 on whom we could act by the resumption of their lands if they violated the 
 condition on which they held them ? — Certainly, by resuming their lands, or 
 resuming other pi-ivileges of less importance, but which they highly valued. 
 
 22(17. The old system, in fact, threw the responsibility on the heads of 
 the zemindar}', with whom the Government iuul made its arrangements r — ^Yes. 
 
 2268. Througli them the duties of the police were enforced? — Yes, by 
 means of their village police. 
 
 2269. You have stated that it would be advantageous instead of introducing 
 any of the new forms which we have introduced, to have recourse, to some 
 extent, to the old system ; are the Committee to undei'stand that the men 
 so employed, feeling themselves in their proper position under the zemindars, 
 woulil act with more spirit in detecting any breaches of the peace or robberies 
 which take place ? — They would act with more si)irit, and with more 
 efficiency, because it is easier and more satisfactory for those to act who have 
 the means of information at hand, than for a stranger not residing in the village 
 or in the neighbourhood. 
 
 2270. It is your opinion that the more we deviate from the original native 
 police institutions the less likely we are to succeed, and the more expense will 
 be incurred? — 1 think so on two accounts; one i?, that in their original insti- 
 
 0.10. A A tution
 
 i86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. R. Citrk, tution the native police arrangements were good ; the other is, that iu that 
 K. c. B. which we have attempted to substitute we have not funds to pay our native 
 
 ; magisterial officers sufficient salaries to command their devoted services ; we 
 
 5 April 1 853. cannot reward and punish as they did ; we do not grant lands rent free, for 
 which a native will serve you to the death ; we cannot punish to the extent 
 that they would ; they have no fear of our punishments, and they have no hope 
 of great rewards from us. 
 
 2.;7i. Does not the circumstance which you have stated of a penalty being 
 exacted to 1 1 times the amount of tlic loss, show the spirit and object of the 
 institution to be the maintenance of a responsibility through the head over 
 all the different parties ? — It does. 
 
 2272. Responsibility, in fact, is the principle that you would recommend in 
 all police establishments? — I think so. 
 
 2273. You have been asked some questions respecting the military ; is it your 
 opinion that the Government should have the opportunity of selecting from 
 military officers, where they find knowledge enough and fitness for the 
 situations, persons to fill civil offices? — Yes, for the magisterial offices and 
 collectorships in question. 
 
 2274. You have stated that civil justice is more satisfactorily administered 
 in the non-regulation provinces than in the others ; you have stated that more zeal 
 is shown because there is a greater power of bestowing dignities and rewards ; 
 will you explain what is the nature of those dignities and rewards, and why 
 the British Government could not avail themselves of the same means of 
 securing good service ? — There are certain privileges which are very acceptable 
 to the natives which a native chief may offer, but which are not comjjrised 
 in our social system : for instance, association in ceremonies or in amuse- 
 ments ; or, going higher up, receiving a daughter in marriage. On the other 
 hand, we have nothing to confer but regular pay, and on certain occasions 
 titles, which no doubt are esteemed, though not so much so as would be the 
 case could we confer also the concomitant privileges and perquisites which, 
 under a native government, such titles would carry with them. 
 
 2275. You say that the system is more satisfactory, because it is more prompt, 
 and divested of those forms which we have introduced. Will you state what 
 those forms are which 3'ou would remove? — I adverted in some degree to the 
 variety of appeals, in the non-regulation provinces, perhaps the responsibilities 
 are so great, that only very efficient officers are chosen ; the more efficient they 
 are, the less necessity there is for appeal of course, and the fewer the ajipeals, 
 the more prompt will be the decisions. In the one case, in the regulation 
 provinces, those appeals may be necessary : in the non -regulation provinces, 
 }ou perhaps have a sui)eri()r class of men, and you do not require to check 
 them by so many appeals ; therefore you come to the end more promptly, and 
 that is satisfactory to the people. 
 
 2276. You have alluded to the assistance which is obtained in the non- 
 rci^ulation provinces from the natives, by their inquiries and examination ; will 
 you explain what you mean l)y the inquiries, which the chiefs are not able them- 
 selves to make: — I advertid to the use of punchayets. 
 
 2277. You wonld make more use of native agency in the punchayet, for the 
 settlement of such matters, than is now done in our own provinces .' — Yes, 
 I think so. 
 
 2278. Looking at the hmg experience you have had of the natives, what is 
 your opinion of the standard of morality among the best of the native popu- 
 lation, those with whom you have come in contact, and in whom you have 
 placed confidence among the higher classes ? — I should say that the moralitv 
 among the higher classes of the Hindoos was of a high standard, and among 
 the middling- and lower classes remarkaljly so ; there is less of immorality, and 
 less of extreme poverty, tlian you would see in man)' countries iu Europe. In 
 all their domestic relations, and their chai-ity to their neighl)ours, they are 
 superior to what you will find in many countries ; it is not so much so perhaps 
 with the Mahomedans, but still 1 should say that there is no striking degree 
 of immorality among them. 
 
 2279. Is it your oj)iuion that confidence might l)e placed iu the natives for 
 the performance of the duties -of many higher offices than they ar^; now em- 
 ployed in in those districts .' — Certainly, if alloweil s daries sufficient to plau.-; 
 them on a respectable footing. 
 
 2280. You
 
 SELl'.CT COMMIITEE ON INDIAN TKRRITORIES. 187 
 
 2280. You mean that if their allowances were such as to maintain them in bir G. H. Clerk, 
 the relative station in which they ought to be, as compared with Europeans, k.c. b. 
 
 confidence might be placed in their honest and straightforward conduct ? — 
 
 Certainly, for official business of most kinds. 5 April 1)353. 
 
 2281. \\'\X\\ respect to that portion of the natives of Bombay who are 
 admitted to associate familiarly with the English, what is your opinion of their 
 capacity for the pcrforuiauce of public business .' — The only natives of Bombay 
 who much care to be admitted to European society are the Parsees ; they are 
 a very quick and intelligent race, but they are not numerous, and not very fit 
 to take employment throughout India ; they prefer Uving in the island of 
 Bombaj'. 
 
 ::.:82. They are ehiefiy emploved in commerce? — Yes, exclusively, and in 
 shipbuilding : they are very famous as shijjbuilders, and have been so for ages. 
 
 2283. In the other provinces do you think the natives may, under an im- 
 proved svstem, such as you have alluded to, be made available for many services 
 for which Europeans are now employed r — For any, even the most important 
 and trustworthy, on sufficient salaries, in the internal provinces. 
 
 2284. Does your experience enable you to say, that where a sufficient salary 
 was allowed, and due confidence placed in them, }ou have found the natives fit 
 for any duties connected' with the Government of the country.' — I have felt 
 the want of the power of giving- those rewards which the natives prize more 
 highly than a salary in hard coin. Such rewards are essential, perhaps, to com- 
 mand their devoted service, including loyalty. You cannot now expect that. 
 They disregard, comparatively speaking, money salaries, though these of course 
 are not unacceptable, and render them quite efficient as official men. 
 
 2 28.> \Vill you state what those rewards are to which you refer, which you 
 think they prize above money ? — Those rewards which the native governments 
 of India would confer upon them for good service ; a village, for instance, 
 in perpetuity, rent free, or a small portion of land, from one acre to one 
 thousand. 
 
 228(1. Do you consider that the British Government could not bestow the 
 same reward, if not in perpetuity, yet for their livrs, or for a certain period r — 
 Certainly ; I have availed myself of that power, having on special occasions 
 had that discretion, or I could not perhaps have obtained the services I have 
 obtained from the natives. 
 
 2287. Do you consider that the natives could be in any way associated as 
 members of council with Europeans to carry on the general affairs of a dis- 
 trict :-I think amongst the most qualified natives of India there are some who 
 would be fully competent to take their seats in such a council ; but I think it 
 Avould be very injudicious to admit them as councillors. 
 
 22S8. You think that they may be consulted, but that they should not be 
 members of the council? — You must otherwise adnut a great number of 
 mem'oers ; if you adopt an individual native as member of a council in India 
 or in England, you would very soon hear that that man, though supposed to 
 be the representative of the people of India, was in fact a representative only of 
 one people : at the most, of one nation. There are 50 nations, and the 50 
 nations would require their 50 representatives. When you come to such an 
 extension of a legislative council it becomes a popular one ; and when )ou 
 come to a popular council in India, you will very soon have to leave the 
 country. 
 
 2289. Looking at the difficulty which arises from the number of castes and 
 sections among tiie people, in what wa}' would you avail yourself of the 
 opinions and knowledge and assistance of the natives ? — I should take it tor 
 granted that most of the British officers in India who have arduous duties to 
 undertake do consult the natives, without which I cannot conceive the ))ossi- 
 bility of their being generally well informed and successful. 1 suppose it is 
 open to any one to consult a native of information and character without ad- 
 mitting him to share his office any more than to share his salary. 
 
 2290. To what extent would you consider them capable of being employed 
 as judges ; what is the present amount up to which tlie head of the Principal 
 Sudder Ameens can decide causes ? — It varies in the different presiilencies ; 
 some have jurisdiction to the extent of 500 /. ; and some, as Principal Sudder 
 Ameens, to the extent of double that amount, and I consider them ca])able. 
 
 0.10. A A 2 ii-9i- Have
 
 i88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOIIE THE 
 
 SlrG.R. Ckrh, 22gi. Have you formed any opinion as to the extent to which that amount 
 K.c.B. might be raised? — I rather think in some araeenships at this moment the 
 
 '"""■;; Principal Sudder Ameen has an unUmited jurisdiction with respect to amount. 
 
 5 April 1853. 2292. Your opinion of the natives generally is, that, with a jiroper selection, 
 
 they may be advantageously employed in the administration of justice? — Ves ; 
 but I tliiiik they ought to be put above want ; they ought to lie at ease in 
 their circumstances ; though of good family sometimes, still they are the poorer 
 members of it. 
 
 2293. Have you formed any idea of what should be the scale of payment to 
 the natives, in order to enable them to maintain the station in society in which 
 they ought to be maintained, having regard to the present allowances to our 
 European estabhshment ? — Nothing need be done hastily, but they might be 
 brought on by degrees to a higher rate of payment, if they continue to show 
 themselves deserving, till they attain the same salaries as the collectors and 
 magistrates now have. 
 
 2294. Mr. Cohden.] In speaking of the high moral qualities of the natives, do 
 you mean to say they are truthful ? — Very much so ; the contrary is ascribed to 
 them; but I mean to say that there is no part of India where you cannot find 
 men upon whose entire truth you can rely in asking an opinion or deciding a 
 difference. 
 
 22().v Mr. H/anc] Are the Committee to understand that while you would 
 effect the change of placing more responsibility on the natives, you would at the 
 same time make that dependent on merit and good service r — Certainly. 
 
 2296. You have alluded to the difficulty you found in selecting proper officers 
 when you were Governor of Bombay r— Owing to their paucity. 
 
 2297. What means has a governor going out from England, utterly unac- 
 quainted with the characters either of natives or Europeans, of making that 
 trustworthy selection which you say is essential ? — He can make no good selec- 
 tion on his own judgment ; he must refer to his colleagues for information, and 
 be under their guidance. 
 
 2298. Is it your opinion that the governors ought to be men who have had 
 a certain education in India, and become acquainted with the habits and lan- 
 guages of the districts of which they are to be governors ? — I do not think it 
 is indispensable that they should have been in India before, but that they should 
 have turned their minds to the subject for some years, and be determined to 
 select the most efficient men without reference to any other motive but that of 
 the good of the service and the good of the people. They should not yield to 
 pretensions founded solely on seniority, or to prejudices. 
 
 2299. Are the Committee to understand from you that efficiency of adminis- 
 tration, in whatever bi-anch of the service, depends upon the proper selection 
 of individuals to perform the different functions ?— On the proper selection by 
 Government; in fact, all dejiends upon the efficiency of the Government. The 
 local Government has ample discretion, I believe, from the Home Authorities, 
 and is jiot compelled to adiiere even to seniority. Tliere is a certain limit pre- 
 scribed b}' the old (!harter, leaving still, however, an ample field to choose from ; 
 and if the governor is disposed to set aside all claims of favouritism and 
 seniority, where the seniors are inefficient, he can in all parts of the service 
 select very efficient men, with the exception that there are not a sufficient 
 number perhaps to fill the bench as judges. 
 
 2300. You would resort to the army? — I would resort to the army for the 
 men whom I would ])lace in many magisterial and fiscal offices, and so obtain 
 the services in the judgeships of those who might be best qualified. 
 
 2301. Sir 7?. //. fiKjlis.'] You have referred to the competency of tlu' natives 
 to fill higher stations than they have hitherto occujiied ; will you state to the 
 Committee what is the limit up to which you would employ a native without 
 any reference to a suju'rior of I'luropean birth, always exce]iting the Governor 
 in Council? — I should contemplate raising the natives, within 10 years, to the 
 rank of magistrates and collectors ; afterwards they might prove themselves to 
 be qualified to fill still higher jiosilioiis, l>uf i do not think it would be necessary 
 to go further than that lor the i)resent ; that would be a great advance for them. 
 
 2302. You have referred to the imperfection of the administration of justice 
 occasionidly in the; ])resideney of which you were governor; you stated that 
 one of tli(! causes was the ))aueity of servants from whom you (U)uld select 
 judges. Is it the case now, whatever may have been the case 50 years ago, that 
 
 in
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX INDIAN TERRITORIES. 189 
 
 in any single instance justice is administered before a magistrate ignorant of i;;r (; n fi ./ 
 tlie language of the i)arties pleading r — Certainly not before one who lias k-.c'i:. 
 attained the rank of magistrate. 
 
 ■2$os. The system of interpreters has passed away entirely ? — Entirely. 5 ^pfil 18.53. 
 
 12304. In other wcu'ds, the natives of India enjoy in every instance the advan- 
 tage of having a judge competent to hear their complaints in their own lan- 
 guage r — Certainly, as f;ir as I have seen. It nev(!r entered my mind that there 
 was such a thing in existence as an interpreter in a court ; I mean out of tlie 
 presidencies. 
 
 230J. In the Supreme Covu-t of course the system of interpreters prevails 
 now as it has always prevailed ? — It does. 
 
 2300. When j'ou stated that there was this paucity of servants from among 
 whom judges might be selected, you of course were not to be understood to 
 refer in any degree to the supreme courts ? — No. 
 
 2307. Nor to assume that their selection had been otherwise than discreet ? 
 ■ — Certainly not. 
 
 2308. With respect to the selection of judges or magistrates in the inferior 
 courts, has not the discretion been exercised, generally speaking, as well as, 
 from the materials before the supreme authorities, could have been exijected ? 
 — I do not think that. 
 
 2309. Do you suggest that there have been improper appointments ? — Not 
 improper; but there has been a want of due discrimination. 
 
 2310. Has that want of due discrimination terminated in improper appoint- 
 ments ? — They may be said to be improper ; it has not been done from im- 
 proper motives exactly, but from not disregarding those pretensions founded 
 on seniority which are often advanced, and which are the cause of inefficient 
 men being put into active employments. 
 
 2311. Sir T. H. AJaddock.] In the administration of justice in the non 
 regulation jn'ovinccs, are vakeels employed in the same manner as they are in 
 the regulation provinces ' — Vakeels are employed ; but there is a difference 
 between the two cases. 
 
 2312. They are not professional men ? — No ; they are not upon the register 
 of the court. 
 
 2313. In speaking of the want of rewards as a stimulus to the natives in their 
 exertions, particularly on police and other matters, are you aware that there is 
 any prohibition on the part of the Government against the offering of land in 
 small quantities in the shape of rewards ? — I am not aware that it is pro- 
 hibited ; I myself have obtained permission to grant land to the extent of two 
 or three acres, but it was after a good deal of trouble that I obtained it. I 
 infer from that, that the Government was averse to alienate lands, especially 
 as so much pains were taken to resume rent-free tenures. 
 
 2314. You alluded to the native governments offering rewards of a more 
 extensive and substantial nature in the shape of villages. Are you aware 
 whether the Government of India are under any prohibition on the part of the 
 Home Authorities against alienating lands without permission r — I am not 
 aware that they are ; but in practice the}^ do not confer them, except to a very 
 small extent, as, for instance, two or three acres for sinking a well in some 
 districts. 
 
 23 If). You have stated that you are of opinion that in the course of 10 
 years probably the natives may be considered as eligible to I)e ajjpointed to the 
 situations of magistrates and collectors ; did you mean that they might then 
 be placed in respect of salary upon the same footing as the European magis- 
 trates and collectors ? — Yes, I should look forward within that period to their 
 being brought up almost to that standard. 
 
 2316. Do you consider that the same rate of salary is required for a native 
 that is required for a Euro])ean ; is that the same actual sum of money in 
 reality a much greater reward for the services of natives than for tlu> services 
 of European officers r — I think there would be found to be very little difference 
 in the wants of the two classes when the native is ])laced in that position ; his 
 expenditure would be in some respects of a different nature, but it would be 
 equal to the proper liberal expenditure of the European ; he would have a 
 description of retinue which the F.uropean would dispense with, but which the 
 native would consider only jiroper to his station ; the European prefers to go 
 unattended ; the native, as a mark of rank, always desires to be attended by 
 
 O.JO. A A ■', ' a suite.
 
 igo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir 6. R. Clerk ^ Suite. In that \^•ay, 1 think, the salaiy required b} him would approximate 
 K. c. B. very much to what would be required in the other case. 
 
 2317. Mr. E/liot.] Can you inform the Committee at what standing civil 
 
 5 April 1853. servants are generally appointed to the office of judge? — lam not sure how 
 that may be, but I should think seldom under two or three and twenty years' 
 service. 
 
 2318. If it should have been stated by an}' other person that judges are 
 appointed at the age of 23, do you consider that that is likely to have been 
 the case in the Bombay Presidency ? — No, I should rather have supposed it 
 meant after 23 years' sernce. 
 
 •23 1 9. The statement to whicli I allude is of this nature, that they go into 
 office at the age of 23 or 24 as judges, but they sit as judges of appeal only ? — 
 But for that last clause, I should have supposed it was a mistake for assistant 
 judges ; it must, however, mean a session judge, because he alone sits in 
 appeal ; the assistant judge does not sit in appeal, but the statement is very 
 different from \\ hat I suppose to be the case. 
 
 2320. You think it must have been a mistake on the part of the person 
 making the statement ? — I should suppose so. 
 
 2321. Viscount Jocelj/ii-l In those native states which you have had an 
 opportunity of seeing, do you consider that justice is fairly administered to the 
 natives ? — Yes, generally speaking, it is administered fairly, but that which is 
 the most striking feature, and the most apjjlauded by the natives of India in 
 our system is, that the same pains are taken to administer justice for our poor 
 as for our rich ; under the native system the rich have the preference. 
 
 2322. Is there a greater degree of corruption in the native states than in our 
 own teri'itories ? — 1 do not think so. 
 
 2323. Do you consider that there is a great deal of corruption in our own 
 states among the subordinates ? — There must be so long as they are inadequately 
 paid ; they must maintain themselves in a certain position, and are required 
 to do so. 
 
 2324. You do consider that the subordinates are inadequately paid r — Yes, 
 in those departments of which I have been speaking, the magisterial and 
 revenue departments, and also in the judicial department ; I am speaking of 
 provinces in which I have not been for many years, but the moonsiff, I belie\e, 
 has 100 rupees a moiitli, that is 10/. a mouth, out of which he has to maintain 
 his own official establishment, at least he had to do so formerly ; that is rather 
 low pay for such an office. 
 
 232.3. In the non-regulation provinces, in criminal jurisdiction, how did you 
 find the system of the punchayet wox'k?— The criminal cases referred to the 
 punchayets would be comparatively few ; certainl}' I have been in the habit of 
 referring cases of assault and land disjiutes, and even cases of homicide, to 
 the jmnchayets, but it is not ordinarily done ; it has, however, worked satis- 
 factorily ; the great difficulty of putting a stop to hereditary feuds is also some- 
 times satisfactorily solved by them. 
 
 2326. In general, did you make use of the punchayets : — In civil cases I did ; 
 not ordinarily in criminal ca.ses ; still there are criminal eases occurring between 
 men of the same caste which are very well referred to the heads of their caste, 
 such as cases of petty assault, abusive Linguage, slander ; those cases on which 
 there is no ])reeise law, or full redress, either in tliis country or in India ; if 
 you can refer these to the heads of the caste they will settle them in a very 
 satisfactory and a very humane way. 
 
 2327. Was it more satisfactory to the natives that those cases should be sum- 
 marily adjudicated ui)on by the officers, or that they should be referred to puncha- 
 yets? -When they involve anything approaching to cases of caste, thev are 
 more satisfactorily decided Ity the punchayet; but if sunnnarily disposed of by the 
 European magistrate, wlio as a rule was known to be a man of integrity, that 
 also is very satisfactory to the natives. It is llie tedious practice of the 
 courts which is harassing to them ; if it is the ploughing or the sowing season, 
 tor instance, and the sufiert r has to attend the court for many days, it is a great 
 annoyance, as it is in any other country. 
 
 2325. Was there a general confidence among the natives with whom vou 
 had to deal in the honesty and integrity of the European servants ? — 
 Unquestionably. 
 
 2329. Mr.
 
 SKLECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. lyi 
 
 2329. Mr. Hardingt'.] Is the punclia^et system in existence now in tlie air G. IL Clerk, 
 
 Rajpootana dominions r - Yes. k.c.b. 
 
 ■_',53u. And in all the independent States? — Yes, the authorities do n(jt bring " 
 
 before themselves such cases as I have now alluded to, unless a punchayct or ■' '^'"'' '^'^■'^■ 
 arbitrators in some form have found difficulty in adjusting them. 
 
 2331. The rajahs have the power of life and death, have they not? — Yes. 
 
 2332. Mr. Mangles.^ Yoit expressed a very high o])inion of the moral 
 character of the natives, and stated that you placed great confidence in them ; 
 was that local or general ; was it confined to the particular provinces in which 
 you wei'e employed, or did it extend throughout India? — I have been cm])loyed 
 in many parts of India, and I never was where I should not have felt confident, 
 and have not felt conlident, that I could rely upon the truthfulness of certain of 
 the natives. 
 
 2333. Is that the case in Bengal Proper ? — I never was in Bengal Proper, 
 except in an inferior judicial office, as registrar under a judge ; it was in a re- 
 gulation province, and therefore I had no opportunity of referring to the 
 natives to arbitrate ; but in several other parts of India I have done so. 
 
 ■22,2, '*■ You must have a general knowledge of the people of Bengal ; do you 
 think they are trustworthy ? — I believe they are not so in Bengal ; the nearer 
 Calcutta pei'haps, the worse they are. My reliance upon the truth of the native 
 would be especially in taking his opinion upon local matters where he has a 
 character to maintain. 
 
 2335. Are not the natives very much inclined to lean to what they believe 
 to be tlie opinion of the man asking the question? — Decidedly not; if fairly 
 referred to, heads of villages, zemindars, and others, are capable of giving per- 
 fectly frank and unbiassed opinions. 
 
 2336. You speak very highly of the system of punchayet ; are you aware 
 that many very able men have spoken of it as a rude system of arbitration, 
 which has been superseded in tlie opinions and feelings of the natives, where- 
 ever ordinary good courts of justice have been established ? — I have heard that 
 said, and testing it myself, I have not found it to be the case. I have generally 
 found them very glad to resort to the punchayet, and willing to abide by its 
 decision. 
 
 2337. Are you aware, that in Madras, under Sir Thomas Monro's system, 
 great facility was given to the punchayet by making resort to it cheaper than 
 to courts of justice ; and yet, when courts of justice were established, the 
 courts of justice had business as 100 to 1 above the business referred to the 
 punchayets ? — I think in certain parts we have damaged the punchayets by our 
 interfering with them so much, making it compulsory, and leaving the litigants 
 less choice in the selection of arbitrators. 
 
 2338. Have not yoti heard in some parts of India, about Agra, that such 
 punchayets have very often ended in pitched battles ; in the case of boundary 
 disputes, for instance ? — Yes, but I have often terminated pitched battles by 
 means of punchayets. 
 
 2339. Are you aware that Sir Thomas Monro stated, that of more than 100 
 principal district officers whom he had employed, he had not eventually found 
 more than six or seven who had not been guilty of corruption, or peculation of 
 some sort? — Because their respectability had been destroyed by reducing them 
 under the ryotwar system. 
 
 2340. Were the principal district officers under paid ? — I think the same 
 cause may have produced the same effect as now. 
 
 2341. Mr. Zorcv.] Have the natives in Bombay confidence in the adminis- 
 tration of civil and criminal justice in our courts ? — I think they have to the 
 same extent that they have in other parts of India. 
 
 2342. Have they confidence in the justice with which appeals ;ire heard ami 
 decided from the decisions of the local nuigistrates ? — 1 think they have, pecu- 
 liarly so in the case of decisions on appeal. 
 
 2343. Have they confidence in the decisions made at Bombay ? — Yes, that is 
 upon appeal. 
 
 2344 You do not acquiesce in the common notion that there is a belief in 
 the power of obtaining decisions corruptly by interest or bribery .' — I have 
 never heard it asserted with reference to the Sudder Court in Bombay, when 
 I knew it some years ago. 
 
 0.10. A A 4 2345. There
 
 iy2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Si) (■'. I(. Clerk, 234"). There is no feeling among the natives tliat a rich man is more likely 
 K.c. B. J.Q succeed in an appeal than a poor one ? — I was not aware of the existence of 
 
 the feeling. 
 
 ^ "^^ "'"'' 2346. A'iscoiUit Jr«T(y//.] Do you think you were likely to have known of it 
 
 if the feeling had existed '^ — 1 was not long tliere : but if the feeling had been 
 prevalent, I suppose I should have known of it, and ought to have known it. 
 
 '2'^^~. Mr. ZoKT.] Can you suggest any means by which such a feeling, if it 
 had existed, could be diminished among the natives ; they are prone, are they 
 not, to entertain a suspicion of corruption of everybody in office ? — The ques- 
 tion assumes that tlie Court has a bad character, of the existence of which 
 I was not aware. 
 
 2348. ]Mr. Fifzf/erdhl.] Are the decisions of the judges between the lowest 
 class' and the zillah judge looked on as equal to the decisions of the ziliah 
 judge : — I have had but little opportunity of comparing th.em, but I should 
 say that they are. . The decisions of all tlie native judges are considered, 
 I believe, to have fully answered the expectations foi-med of their capacities for 
 administerhig justice. 
 
 2349. Have you ever taken pains to inquire into the questions which have 
 been raised upon appeal from the decisions of the native judges, and the result 
 of those appeals ? — I have read their decisions. 
 
 2350. Have you formed a judgment upon the subject yourself, as to whether 
 the decisions of the ziUah judges are superior to those of the native judges ? — ■ 
 1 shoidd not say that they are superior. The decision of tlie native judge is as 
 good as that of the European judge. 
 
 23,51. In your opinion the native judges have exhibited as much efficiency 
 as the European zillah judges / — Yes ; therefore I see no objection to the un- 
 limited amount of the suits which a native judge may decide in the highest 
 grade of Ameens. 
 
 2352. You stated in answer to a question as to the propriety of sending out 
 English bnrristers to fill the judicial appointments in the Mofussil Courts, that 
 you did not think that English barristers of eminence would accept the salaries 
 which were given to the judges of the zillah courts ; I understood you to say 
 that their salary was 3,000 /. a year '.'—From 2,500 /. to 3,000 /. 
 
 2353- F)o you apply the answer you have given to the bar as it at present 
 exists in this country and in Scotland and Ireland, that if it were desirable to 
 appoint to such offices English, Scotch, or Irish barristers, you could not find 
 gentlemen of efficiency at that rate of salary ? — That was my meaning ; that a 
 barrister qualified to take such an office in India, considering the period of his 
 life that he must have spent in England, and adding to that the period he must 
 pass in India in (pialifying l.imself for the liench, would not consider the salary 
 of the office in India, with its labour and bad climate, ^fficient to compensate 
 him for having abandoned his country and his professioiiiiere. 
 
 23,54. V)o you ha])])en to know the amount of salary which is given to the 
 County Court judges in this country and the assistant barristers in Ireland? — 
 It is 1,000 I. a year, I believe. 
 
 2;3.5,5. In Bombay you have had in the Supreme Court a local bar? — Yes. ' 
 
 2356. Has it been the custom to fill up the vacancies among the zillah judges 
 from those barristers ? — No. 
 
 23.57- Supp(,sing it were considered advisable to hold out to the local bar 
 there the prospect of appointment to the zillah judgeships, would not it be 
 likely to attract a great number of English barristers to practise in India to 
 take their chance of those ajipointments ?— I think it would require too long a 
 l)eriod for them to qualify ihemselves, and then they would not be so well 
 acquainted with the hiibits and language of the people as those who were trained 
 up from their youth there. 
 
 23,58. Do you look ui)on it as essential to the efficiency of a zillali judge that 
 he should be a person acquainted with the habits and language of the people? 
 —1 do. 
 
 23.51J. 1 understood you to say that in the non-regulation provinces with 
 which you yourself were acquainted, you had found an advantiige in referring 
 cases to arbitration ? — Yes. 
 
 23(10. That is, in inducing litigants to refer their disputes to arbitration? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2361 . I assume
 
 SELECT COMMITTEi: OX INDIAN TI:RU1T0RIES. 193 
 
 23111. I assume that from those arbitrators there is no appeal ?— Yes, there Sir u. H. Clerk, 
 is an appeal. k. c. b. 
 
 23(1-'. Their decision is not binding r— It would be in a native state, but not — — 
 
 under British authority. "j April iS.iri. 
 
 •2'^(>Z. In the non-regulation provinces which you are acquainted with, has 
 the jury system in civil eases lieeu at all introduced r — Yes, I have tried it. 
 
 2634. Has the introduction of the .system proved beiictieial r — I have always 
 thought I would persevere in it, but it is no doul)t found difficult to carry out ; 
 at the same time it ought not to be abandoned. 
 
 -j*^'.')- ^^ hat course did 3()u pursue when you endea\oure(l to carry the system 
 into effect : what number of jurors did you select ? — The difficulty is so great 
 in procuring any, that the fewer the nund)cr which is re(iuired the better. 
 
 236(1. In your own practice what number did you adopt? — I never attempted 
 to have nuire than three, and that generally broke down. 
 
 23117. Did those three jurors sit as assistants to yourself: — Yes. 
 
 23t')S. I presume you either adopted their decision, if you agreed with it, or, 
 if you did not approve of it, you pronovmced your own judgment ) — Yes ; as far 
 as I carried it I always pronounced my own judgment, looking forward to the 
 time when thcv might pronounce tlieir's, but they were then totall}- unfit to do 
 so : I tried it more through the medium of my assistants vmder me than with 
 myself personally, but I have myself used it. 
 
 2361). It was adojitcd more with a view to train up the natives to assist in 
 the administration of justice than with a view of receiving actual assistance 
 from them at pi'csent ? — Yes, just so. 
 
 2370. Did they act under any obli2;ation similar to an obligation upon oath .- 
 —No. 
 
 2371. How were they selected? — By personal request to the best men of the 
 neighbourhood ; it was always a great annoyance to them. After a time the 
 man considers, for instance, that he woidd be better engaged sitting in his own 
 shop, and tumiing his money to account, instead of losing his time in court. 
 
 2372. As the result of the experience you have had in regard to this attempt 
 to introduce the jury system, is it your opinion that it would be beneficial 
 that it should be extensively introduced r — To the extent, 1 think, of having 
 two or three assessors. I would not think of impannelling a jury of 10 or 12; 
 that is unattainable. I speak of the upper parts of India. 
 
 2373. I suppose they assisted you only upon questions of fact, and not upon 
 questions of law r — That was all. 
 
 2374. Would you consider it a beneficial improvement in the system of the 
 administering justice in civil cases if, instead of the present complicated pro- 
 cess of taking evidence in writing, the evidence were taken orally?— It is 
 always an advantage, I think, to take evidence orally where you have time for 
 it ; but work is too heavy in that country ; the longest day would not suffice for 
 a single judge to receive orally all the evidence to be taken. 
 
 2375. If it were possible to do so, your opinion would be that it would be 
 beneficial to have the evidence given orally - — Certainly ; and it is very much 
 the custom in the non-regulation provinces to take the evidence orally. 
 
 2376. When you take the evidence orally, how is the appeal conducted ? — 
 The appeal is upon the record ; the parties are sunnuoned before the court of 
 appeal, if necessary ; the i-ecord received there^ contains an al)straet of the 
 evidence. 
 
 2377. The appellate court can only deal with the report of the evidence r — 
 Generally so, but can rehear the case if thought necessary. 
 
 2378. Mr. Nezv debate.] How long, in your opinion, would it take an English 
 barrister to become familiar with the manners and customs of the people of 
 India?- It would depend very much upon the position iu which he was placed 
 in India. He would have greater facilities for becoming acquainted with their 
 customs in some positions than he would in others. He would learn little of 
 their language or their customs by remaining at the presidency, and it would 
 be difficult to find him that occupation in the interior which would enable him 
 to acquire their languages and a knowledge of their customs in such a maimer 
 as to be efficient as a judge, under many years' residence. 
 
 2370. Supposing that occupation were fouml him, how long would it take 
 him to acquire a knowledge of the languages and the habits and customs of 
 the people r — I should say seven years. 
 
 0.10. 13 B 23S0. Is
 
 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sii i>. R. Clerk, 2380. Is not that knowledge more especially essential where juries are em- 
 k. c. B. ployed, where the evidence is taken viva voce? — Yes. 
 
 -A rl iSiii ^381. Mr. Macaulay.'] Is there any institution fee or causes in the non- 
 
 ^ ' regulation provinces ? — Where T have been employed there was not. 
 
 2382. Chairman.'] As you are about shortly to leave England, the Committee 
 wish, departing from their general plan, to ask your opinion upon a subject which 
 does not come immediately under their consideration at the present moment, 
 namely, the revenue question. W hat is your opinion as to the revenue system 
 which existed in Bombay when you assumed the government there? — The 
 system in Bombay is what is called the ryotwar system, which I think of many 
 systems is the most objectionable, as carried out by us. 
 
 2383. Will you state in a few words what the principle of the ryotwar 
 system is? — It is a very minute and detailed assessment of land under indivi- 
 dual cultivators, in small allotments, dii-ectly by the government ; so that they 
 are, as we found them, still paujiers ; there is nothing between them and the 
 government : the government has no funds to support them in case of their 
 tending breaking down, and the consequence is a deterioration of the lands, 
 as far as I have seen ; generally speaking, that is the objection to it In itself 
 it is not an unfair mode of assessment, but quite the reverse, but we have 
 not the agency to carry it out proj-^erly ; you require an honest agency ; with 
 the exception of the F'uropean officers, you have no one that you can rely on 
 thoroughly for such purposes. 
 
 2384. Your idea of the ryotwar system is, that it does not work well, either 
 for the government or for the natives? — Certainly not; they have no head 
 landholders over them to acquire capital ; they are of a class who never do 
 acquire capital in any country ; mere cultivators. In the case of any sudden 
 visitation, such as damage to a village by a hail-storm, a famine, or disease 
 among the people, or among their cattle, there is nobody to support them, or 
 to prop up a falling village ; you have under such circumstances to make a 
 remission of the claim of the government ; the benefit they derive from a 
 remission of revenue of course depends upon a just assignment of it to the 
 sufferers, but you have to pass that through the hands of your native officials, 
 and you cannot be always certain that it is properly distributed. 
 
 2385. Is that remission of revenue a total remission, or is it claimed sub- 
 sequently if tlie ryots are in a better position? — That depends upon circum- 
 stances. The rule of the British Government is not to allow remissions; they 
 assume that the assessment is so just as to be adapted to average seasons, and 
 to all fluctuations, and that the people with whom they made the settlement, 
 the ryots as they are called there, will never need a remission. That is all 
 very well till the time of diffiulty comes ; but then of course they come down 
 upon you for a remission ; they will not starve ; they have no habits of thrift ; 
 they have no inducement to amass capital ; in fact they cannot, it is not to be 
 obtained upon those small jjieces of ground ; they come for a remission, and 
 then there is the second diffic^ulty, that you do not know what becomes of that 
 remission. If you could i)Ut a European in the place of every native officer, 
 nothing could be more perfect perha])s, but you cannot do that. An honest 
 trustworthy man should be looking at every single ryotwar village every sovving 
 time and every harvest time ; and besides that, whenever any calamity happens 
 to the tillage. If you could carry that out, the villages would improve under the 
 ryotwar system : wanting that, as far as I have seen, they never do improve. 
 
 2386. Supposing a remission to be made one year, is the arrear claimed 
 subsequently, and payment enforced ?— Yes, it is alwa)'S expected to be re- - 
 covered ; naturally, in dealing with those jioor cultivators, you have less chance 
 of recovering your ren;issions than you would have from those who have more 
 capital ; they live from hand to mouth, and must have very extraordinary success 
 in fine seasons to be able to repay your remissions. Tluni, again, you have 
 to trust to a native official for the considerate recovery of that remission 
 at the fittest period. 
 
 2387. How is the assessnunt made I — There is first a scientific survey of 
 the wiiole area of the village ; I believe there is a revised settlement now 
 going on, which appears to be a just one, and which is very moderate, which 
 means of course tliat there will be a considerable sacrifice of revenue by the 
 Government. 
 
 2387- It
 
 SELECT C(1MMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 19,7 
 
 2388. It is made by European assessors f — By European surveyors first ; m, <j. r. Clerk. 
 that gives them the whole area of the village ; and now the custom is, i believe, i^- ^- "• 
 
 to divide it arbitrarily among the ryots, or cultivators, according to tlieir 
 
 means. If a man has one pair of oxen, he has so much laud, if two pair of 5 April 1853. 
 
 oxen, so much, and so on, up to a certain maximum of 10 acres or so; he takes 
 
 upon himself the cuUivation of that land, and the payment of a certain revenue 
 
 for a \ear. and he is to hokl it for as many years as lie likes, provided he pays 
 
 that amount of revenue ; if it is moderately assessed, he goes on from year to 
 
 year, but he never is better than when he began, and very often is worse, and 
 
 when he begins to decline, there is no one at hand to help him ; there is no 
 
 zemindar over him who can help him. 
 
 ■2[]So. What is the system of revenue which prevails in the North-W estern 
 Provinces ? — There has been a new settlement carried out there of leases on 
 long terms to zemindars of different calibie, some holding a single village or so, 
 and others being the many heads of a village. 
 
 •2390. Was that settlement laid down on the principle recommended by Mr. 
 Bird? — 1 beHeve so, but the principle was not new; it was much older than 
 Mr. Bird's time; it was a very ancient mode of assessment of land revenue in 
 India. 
 
 2301 . lias that worked well in your opinion ? — I think it works remarkably 
 well, when in forming your assessment of revenue with the heads of villages, 
 you have not infringed the rights of any zemindar, who formerly held above 
 them, called a talookdar I distinguish the village settlement from the other 
 by the term talookdar. Where you have not interfered with any other rights, 
 I think it is the best possible system of land revenue assessment. You find 
 men there who are acknowledged heads of villages, who have been so for cen- 
 turies, ready, if fairly assessed, to take up a lease of a village for 30 or 40 years. 
 That leaves a profit enabling them to accumulate some capital if thev choose. 
 A Hindoo will, but a Mahomedan seldom will, whatever terms you give him. 
 Therefore we do, 1 imagine, as our predecessors have done, assess them heavily 
 and keep them to work. A Hindoo, a thrifty man, may be indulged with a 
 lighter assessment, and will accumulate capital, which he will lay out in the 
 improvement of the land. Such is the condition of many villages. 1 believe, 
 generally speaking, it is so in the North-Western Provinces of India. 
 
 2392. What was the condition of the people of the North-Western Provinces 
 when you quitted that part of the country, as compared with their condition when 
 you first visited those provinces ? — I have been so little in those provinces for 
 many years, that I can hardly state, still I had an opportunity of observing 
 what was their condition in some of the districts. They were generally, as far 
 as I observed, a thriving people, both agriculturists and traders. 
 
 '^393- Was their condition the same, or had it deteriorated or improved ? — 
 It had improved, certainly. Lands were reclaimed to a vast extent where they 
 had been unreclaimed before, that is the best proof of improvement. I do not 
 know what the area which has been brought under cultivation in the last 10 
 years has been, but it must be and ought to be very extensive. 
 
 2394. Were not the villages in the Delhi district fortified when we first took 
 possession of that pai*t of the country ? — Yes ; on the decline of the Mahomedan 
 Empire every village found it necessary to repair the defences which had 
 existed, or to erect new ones if they had none before. All uj)per India was 
 covered with bands of horsemen, Sikhs dashing at everything, and the in- 
 habitants only repelled them by erecting little citadels in the middle of the 
 villages, with watchmen aloft on a higli look out. 
 
 -395- What is the present state of that part of the coiuitry .-—The bricks 
 which formed those redoubts are all taken for the houses of the cultivators; 
 thei"e are no such defences now to be seen in the British provinces. 
 
 2396. The districts are cultivated and quiet ? — Highly cultivated. 
 
 2307. Are the jungles disappearing ? — Yes, there is not a vestige of them 
 near villages ; the North-Western Provinces are bounded by heavy forests under 
 the hills, but cultivation is extending into them till it has in some parts gone up 
 to the very foot of the hills. 
 
 2308. It has been stated that within a few years lions prowled up to the 
 gates of Delhi ; are there such w ild beasts now ? — The last party 1 saw there take 
 the field for hons was in 1834 ; they went 300 miles and they did not see one, 
 and came back again. 
 
 0.10. B B 2 2399. Are
 
 J go MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir G. II. Clerk, 2399. Are the zemindars in the habit of assisting the ryots in case of the 
 K. c. B. failure of their crops ? — Yes. 
 
 2400. In what wivy do thej^ assist them? — They will assist them with funds, 
 
 5 .April i8.-,3. or with seed, corn, or with oxen; that is the advantage of the village or 
 zemindar settlement ; the zemindar will not see his ryots break down ; why 
 should he ? if the ryot is hard pressed, and can g-et no assistance, he will take 
 his bed in one hand, and his light plough on his shoulder, and go oflf to another 
 village. 
 
 ■2401. In Bombay there is no power in the Governor, or anybody else, to give 
 such assistance? — No, certainly not ; the collector will give assistance; it is 
 a heart-breaking thing for him to see his village deteriorating ; he apphes to 
 the Government, but the Government knows that if the money goes to a ryotwar 
 village, it goes for ever. 
 
 2402. Mr. Macmday.'] Would there be any insuperable difficulty in establish- 
 ing in the Bombay Presidency the system of village settlement ? — I should like 
 to see it tried. The difficulty, perhaps, would be in calling forth now those who 
 may formerly have held it as village managers ; still you might select from. 
 among the present ryots some who would undertake it, but in that selection 
 would be the difficulty. Of course the best thing to look for would be some 
 one who would have a claim to the lauds, and who would say, " We own all 
 the lands and will take them, and pay you revenue for them." In Bombay 
 the whole thing has been frittered away among the cultivators, and 1 cannot 
 conceive any mode of bringing that to bear except asking the ryots to elect their 
 own representatives, and getting them to take the settlement upon their hands. 
 Whether that would succeed or not, I do not know. 
 
 2403. Did not you mention in a former part of your examination a class of 
 zemindars in the Bombay Presidency to whom the Government cught to look 
 as agents in matters of police ? — If I spoke of a class, of rank approaching that 
 of zemindars, it may have been of deshmookhs or village officers, but the class 
 I alluded to as belonging to police is the numerous body of hereditary village 
 ■watclimen. 
 
 •2404. ^\v. ElUre.'] The rent or revenue taken from the zemindars, or from 
 the ryot population in India, is taken for various periods in different provinces, 
 is not it ? — Yes. 
 
 240,5. Would not it be advantageous to commute the whole of it into a quit- 
 rent, so that the population may be encouraged to extend their im])rovements 
 without the fear of an additional rent being required from them : — That is an 
 experiment I should like to see tried, but I would not apply it except as an 
 cxixriment here and there. 
 
 2406. You think it would be advisal^le to tr}' such an experiment? — I see no 
 objection to it. 
 
 2407. Would not it have the same effect in India that the extinction of tithe 
 had in this country, that people biinging new land into cultivation, or imju'ov- 
 ing the cultivation of land already cultivated, would have the advantage of 
 their om u improvements without the pa3'ment of any further tax ? — It might 
 have that effect ; the ])eoi)le now have that advantage in many settlements, 
 where nothing is levied prospectively on land which the parties may reclaim, 
 and which at the time of the settlement was unreclaimed. 
 
 2408. That has been found conducive to the improvement of the country, 
 has it?~No doubt of it. 
 
 2409. Mr. CohdcH.] You have stated that one difficulty attending the ryot- 
 war system in Bombay arises from the wide-spread and general corruption of 
 the native population, and that where you lose the services of Europeans, you 
 fnid it impo-sibki to obtain faithful administrators ; how do you reconcile that 
 with the statement you made in the former part of your evidence as to the 
 general morality and truthfulness of the population of India? — 1 do not think 
 I made use of the term wide-Sj)i-ead corruption of the population ; I certainly 
 meruit nothing of the kind ; I meant that the und('r-j)aid native agents whom 
 you must use in consequence of the want of funds to obtain others, are not to 
 l)e trusted with tlie disposal of the money remitted from the revenue, or to 
 carry out the r3'otwar system in all its minuti; parts. 
 
 2410. if the mass of the population be truthful and honest, where is the diffi- 
 (;ulty in finding honest agents among them.' — You imjjose laborious duties 
 upon them, and do not give them adeqvuite salaries to maintain themselves. 
 
 241 1. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEllIUTOIUES. i,,; 
 
 2411. You oonsider that the difficulty arises from tlic inadequacy of their Sir (;. Ji. Ckr/i 
 l)a3incnt ? — Yes. If you could find a^'cnts in suflicient, nuniljcrs, and pav them k.c. u. 
 
 ade([uate salaries for strict care of every village under the ryotwar svstcni \()u 
 
 might make it a very ])erfect thing ; I look upon that, however, as an inipos- /i April 1853. 
 sibility, and short of that I do not think it can answer. 
 
 2412. Do you think if the natives were paid in all cases the same salaries as 
 Europeans, you would be enabled to tind honest agents ? — In time, when they 
 are trained and educated to the habit of honesty, I think 30U may. 
 
 2413. Mr. ^/(nio/i'^.l Could the revenue in India bear the ])urden of such an 
 agency ? — hnpossil)le. 
 
 2414. Mr. JJinnc] You have stated that the present ryotwar system leaves 
 the cultivators in a state of beggary, and )'ou have expressed a doubt how far 
 the village system could be adopted ; is there any other step which }ou could 
 recommend as a means of imjjroving the condition of the cultivators in Bom- 
 bay ? — I do not think I expressed a doubt as to the village system ; it is the 
 system I have always advocated and adopted. 
 
 2415. Is that a system which you would recommend? — By the heads of 
 villages, unless }-ou thereby infringe the riglit of any superior grade of land- 
 owner or trdookdar. 
 
 24 1 (1. In that case you would go to the talookdar, the original head, and 
 deal with him ? — Yes. 
 
 2417. Sir C Wood.] Did not Sir Thomas Monro introduce the ryotwar 
 system with the view of protecting the ryots against the oppression of the 
 zemindars ? — Yes. 
 
 2418. The ryotwar system, as introduced by him, was a permanent settle- 
 ment, with a maximum rent ? — Yes. 
 
 2419. Whatever annual settlement there may be, it is always somewhat 
 below that which was settled by Sir Thomas Munro ? — It has been so, for the 
 most part, I believe. 
 
 2420. ^Vas not his settlement a very considerable reduction indeed below 
 what had been paid by the sanic parties before ': — I believe it was. If you had 
 been able to retain a Sir Thomas Monro in every ryotwar village, and could have 
 fixed him there in his tent as he used to place himself among them, you 
 would have had those villages all thriving, and now capable of paying an in- 
 creased jumma. 
 
 2421. Did not you say that the ryotwar system, fairly carried out, would be 
 the most perfect system for collecting the revenue in India ? — I said it would 
 be an admirable system ; I did not say the most jierfect. I do not see by what 
 means ryots can accumulate capital for the improvement of the country. 
 
 2422. Is not the village system of settlement which has been recently 
 carried out a system by which a nvnnber of persons are rendered jointl}' respon- 
 sible, and liable for each other ; — I believe by the latest settlement that is so. 
 It does not follow, however, that in the village settlement each should be 
 responsible for the failing share of another. Objections are entertained to that, 
 but, generallv speaking, it can be done, and has been done. 
 
 2423. Is not that the system which has been I'eeently carried out in the 
 North- Western Provinces ? — Yes, I believe it is. 
 
 2424. And with great success ? — Certainly. 
 
 242,5. Is not the consent of all the owners or cultivators of the ground 
 necessary to establish a system of that kind ? — The cultivators have never, 
 under a " village " system, under our predecessors, been considered to have a 
 voice in anything, except the possession of their own strips of cultivated land ; 
 there they have a hereditary right ; they have a hereditary right to cultivate it, 
 paying that tax which is recorded in the village accounts. No zemindar can 
 take more from a r)'ot than he is bound for in the books of the village ; if he 
 atten;pts to do so, the ryot will make himself heard, whether by the native or 
 European authority. 
 
 2426. Is not the system which has been carried out in the North- Western 
 Provinces, that a certain number of parties cultivating a village are jointly 
 responsible to the Government .- — I imagine that the cultivators themselves are 
 not responsible to the Government directly, but the heads or zemindars of the 
 villages are. 
 
 2427. They may employ persons under them ? — The}^ must employ persons 
 under them ; they must employ those very persons under them. 
 
 o.io. B B 3 2428. How
 
 198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sii G. R:.C/eT A. 2428. How are those persons selected, who are responsible to the Govern- 
 tt.c.B. ment ? — You find them there, the acknowledged heads of villages, and they 
 
 havr been so for ages. In a Hindoo village, they have been there as Hindoos 
 
 5 April 1853. for many ages ; in the case of the Mahomedans, they have had possession of 
 villages which have been apportioned among a fraternity, representatives of the 
 fraternity holding the village down to the present day. 
 
 2429. They have a hereditary right to cultivate the whole village, with people 
 under them having subordinate rights to them? — Yes, with those people under 
 them, generally speaking. There is also another class of hired labourers, as there 
 is elsewliere, which they introduce sometimes. Those i)eople have not the 
 same hereditary right of cultivating the same land, from year to year, which the 
 other cultivators ha^'e. 
 
 2430. Are there any jx-rsons in the \ illages, where the ryotwar system is 
 established, who are at all in the position of the persons to whom you have 
 been referring in the North-\Yestern Provinces : — No. 
 
 2431. Do you think it would be possible to obtain persons of that descrip- 
 tion in those villages where tlie ryotvpar system has been long established ? — 
 I apprehend not without difticulty. 
 
 2432. In v.hat manner would }ou suggest the possibility of any change from 
 the ryotwar system, to such a system as you consider to be a more desirable one .' 
 — I would first of all give a fair trial to the settlement, which I believe is now 
 being carried out by some very able revenue officers, and see what the eifect of 
 that will be. It is on a reduced rate of revenue, but it is expected that it will 
 restore the villages very much, and it may have that effect. I may be pre- 
 judiced against it, and I should wait to see the result of that settlement, and if 
 it broke down, I would devise anything as being better. 
 
 2433. Is not the settlement now going on in Bombay for a certain number 
 of ATars, as it is in the Nortll-^Yestern Provinces ? — I think it is from year to 
 year, but pledging the Government for 30 or 40 years ; it is optional with the 
 other party ; they may abandon it in any year, but the Government are pledged 
 for the whole of the 30 years. 
 
 2434. The Government fixes the maximum rent for 30 years, but the other 
 party is not bound beyond a single yearJ^ — I think that is the case ; I do not 
 speak with confidence, because it is some years since I was there. It appears to 
 me that that system gives them great advantages ; if they can thrive under any 
 ryotwar system, they ought to thrive under that. 
 
 2435. That system is in progress throughout the whole of the Presidency of 
 Bombay, is not it ?— I believe it is, or the greater part of it. 
 
 2436. N'iscount Joceli/n.] In those native states with which you are ac- 
 quainted, which is the system adopted, the mouzawar system or the ryotwar 
 system .' — They have all descriptions of settlement. 
 
 2437. Generally speaking, do you consider that the peo])le are more highly 
 assessed under the native governments than thev are under the British Go- 
 vernment r — I think they are assessed quite as highly, but the remissions are 
 more liberal, and assistance is more promjjtly given under the native govern- 
 ments ; their native agency is more trustworthy than ours. The native agent, 
 under a native government, will be more careful to bring to the notice of the 
 chief the condition of a failing village, because he serves with more zeal, and 
 he serves with more zeal because he is better rewarded. 
 
 2438. You think under many of the native governments the ryots are in a 
 better condition than under the British Government ? — 'Under a native govern- 
 ment the condition of the ryot is as easy, 1 do not say it is more easy. At 
 certain peinods of disaster and famine he is moi'e promptly reheved ; that is 
 the sole advantage he has over the British ryot. 
 
 2439. lake tiie case of Sattara, with which you are acquainted ; in Sattara, 
 under the old native government, do you consider that the ryot was in as good 
 a ])osition as he is under the Company's government ? — Judging from what 
 I saw of Sattara, 1 should say he was ; it was a good government altogether. 
 
 2440. Mr. Elliot.] With regard to the different state of the ryots under 
 ditt'erent tenures, can you state whether the ryots on rent-free lands are mate- 
 rially better ofi^ than on land liaying revenue to the Government, whether under 
 the system which j^revails in the upper provinces or under the zemindary system 
 in Bengal V — The condition of the ryots on rent-free lands varies very much 
 according to the humanity or otherwise of the La-khiraj-dars ; some of them 
 
 are
 
 SELECT COMMITTRK ON IXDI.W THIIIHTOUIF^S. uk) 
 
 are great tyrants, and some an; very benevolent ; Init loi- man)- years past the ^jr t,. j^ ^/jr* 
 La-khiraj-dars have been restrained from op])ressive exactions. k. c b. ' 
 
 2441. You cannot take as a criterion of the state of the rvots the amount of 
 
 revenue which is paid to the CJovernnicnt in a settled state in Bengal, can you ': s April 185.-}. 
 — No, not in Bengal. 
 
 2442. Tan you in a village settlement in the upper province's/ — I think 1 
 could tell whether a settlement sat e:isily or not upon a wliole village, from the 
 condition of the ryots. 
 
 24 13. If the ryots holding lands under a La-khir!ij-dar aie frecpieutly equally 
 ill off as those, holding under a zemindary tenure, it is quite clear that you 
 cannot draw a correct inference as to the state of the ryots from the fact of 
 the amount paid to the (iovernment? — No. 
 
 2444. Sir 7'. H. ModdovL] Was the ryotwar system introduced into the 
 Bombay Presidency by the British authorities?— It was introduced by us in the 
 form in which it now subsists; that is, without reference to the native officers, 
 the desmooks, to the degree to which they controlled it under the native 
 government. 
 
 244,5. In what year was it introduced r— I do not recollect the period of the 
 first settlement. 
 
 2446. The ryotwar system is not universal throughout the Bombay Presi- 
 dency, is it ? — it is almost universal. 
 
 2447. Mr. Cobden] Under the ryotwar system the cultivators of land are 
 occupiers from year to year, you say? — Yes. 
 
 2448. But they are not liable to removal if they continue to pay their rent? 
 —No. 
 
 2449. Are they perfectly safe from removal for any other cause than the 
 nonpayment of rent ? — They ought to be. 
 
 2450. Are they so ? — I consider that they are perfectly secure. 
 
 2451. What are the exceptions upon your mind which induce you to say, 
 " I consider '" ? — It never entered my mind that they were removed from any 
 other cause. 
 
 2452. Are they as safe in the possession of the land, provided they continue 
 to pay the assessment, as if the land were their own? — I consider that they 
 are quite so ; the contrary can only occur through extreme negligence on the 
 part of a collector. 
 
 2453. How would such negligence affect their tenure of the land? — Sup- 
 posing a zemindar were to eject a ryot from his holding, that man of course 
 would make himself heard by the collector ; he would bring forward his griev- 
 ances, and that would be attended to, and he would be restored if he was not in 
 fault. His rights are secured by the amount of his assessment being recorded 
 in the village account, beyond which no zemindar can exact anything from him. 
 Occasionally zemindars will attempt it, and then the next thing that occurs is 
 that the man forthwith lodges a petition, to say that an excessive rate has been 
 levied from him ; that is inquired into, and if the collector does his duty, that 
 is to say, if he is watchful in his office, and his door is open, that is a perfect 
 check upon all exactions of the kind. 
 
 2454. Mr. Hume.] Is not there in every village a record of all portions of 
 land, and to whom they belong? — Tiiere is a record of every rood of land, and 
 of everything which is paid upon it. 
 
 2455. Having regard to the protection which the man has under the patell 
 register, as long as he pays the rent assessed he cannot be removed?— He 
 cannot. 
 
 2456. Is not it the duty of the i)atell officer to see that each portion of land 
 recorded in the register is properly cultivated and attended to? — \ es. 
 
 2457. And to report to the head of the village who is the responsible party 
 in respect of all proceeds to the state ? — That is his duty. 
 
 2458. Do you think that that would be the best system that can exist? — 
 As regards the tenure, I do. 
 
 2450. Sir C. Wood.'] Under the existing ryotwar system, is not the ryot, as 
 long as he pays his rent, certain to retain possession of his land, and free from 
 all liability to be dispossessed for any other cause whatever? — Except crime. 
 
 2460. Are the ryots, under the zemindars, equally secure of the tenure of 
 their land ? — Equally secure. 
 
 2461. Has not it been necessary in the course of the last few years to pass 
 O.JO. B B 4 many
 
 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sii O- n. Cierk, mauv .Acts iia order to protect them, they not havhig been sufficiently pro- 
 K. c.B. tected witnout those additional Acts of the Indian Legislature ? — It may have 
 
 been so; but instead of that, I woidd have passed an order to remove a 
 
 5 April 1853. collector, under \vhose charge such a thing took place, ^Yhich I think would be 
 as effectual a means of checking it. 
 
 •246-2. Mr. Ilimie.'] In your opinion, how far are the duties which arise under 
 the treaties existing between the native chiefs and the East India Company 
 mutually understood ? — In some of the treaties between the British Govern- 
 ment and the native chiefs there has been considerable latitude, and perhaps 
 ambiguity of ex]n'essioii, such as is found in treaties in other counti-ies, and 
 perhaps owing to that there may have been misunderstandings on the part of 
 the chiefs, and what have been considered by them to be encroachments on the 
 part of the British Government, such as they did not contemplate when those 
 treaties were drawn up. 
 
 •246;]. With a view of preventing that misiuiderstanding and discontent which 
 occasionally arise from ambiguity in the language of the treaties, what course 
 would \ou recommend to be adopted? — With regard to future treaties, I would 
 remember those embarrassing consequences arising from ambiguous terms, and 
 be very particular in the language which I used. 
 
 ^2464. Can that be carried out r — Nothing is more dithcult, but I should 
 think that by greater consideration than has been paid to drafting some of those 
 treaties, which generally speaking are drafted at the conclusion of a war, when 
 there is a great deal to do and great anxiety to bring things to a termination, 
 you might avoid all terms which could lead to any misunderstanding. 
 
 246;,. With regard to the existing treaties, what course would you recom- 
 mend with a view of })reventing those unpleasant differences which have arisen 
 fi'om tiieir ambiguity ? — I have never considered the subject, but I should say 
 that if }ou have i)ledged yourself to anything which you now find you cannot 
 convenientl)' fulfil, you can rescind it only with the goodwill of the other party ; 
 if you wish to maintain your character for good faith, }'ou must either devise 
 some ecjuivalent, or leave things as they are, and bear witli the embarrassing 
 consequences. 
 
 24()t). Would not it be desirable to devise that equivalent with a view to the 
 maintenance of future peace ? — If it could be done with the consent of both 
 joarties it would be most desirable. 
 
 24(17. Yhcount Jorei7/>i .] In most of those treaties there is a clause by which 
 the native prince is bound to listen to the advice of the Resident ? — Yes. 
 
 24CS. Is he strictly bound to listen to his advice in all cases ? — He is bound 
 by the spirit of that tr(>aty, but he is not further bound by the letter of the 
 treaty, than that it would probably express the condition that he is to regard 
 that advice. There is no penalty attached to it, because at the time of drawing 
 a treaty of that kind you were not strong enough, or circumspect enough, 
 to impose a penalty. You would have had to go to war again a month after- 
 wards. 
 
 2469. Does not that often put the Resident in an unpleasant situation r — Of 
 course it does. 
 
 2470. Mr. Ihmii'.] Should not something definite be done on the subject, and 
 some rules be laid down for the interpretation of such treaties I — It would be 
 desirable, but they would feel that they bad got you at a great advantage. 
 
 247 1 . Mr. IJiirJiiiijf.'] There have been many instances of Rajahs and native 
 princes refusing to listen to the advice of the Residents, have there not .' — Yes, 
 there have been. 
 
 2472. \hco\u\t Jorc/i/ II.] Su))i!ose in a case where there is a Resident at a 
 native court with which there is a treaty by the British Government, drawn uj) 
 as they usually arc, an aspirant to the throne makes war upon the native prince, 
 does tlie Resident consider himself justified in interfering on ])ehalf of the prince 
 ■who is upon the throne ? — lie would always, 1 think, consider himself entitled 
 to interfere by advice, but it very much depends upon the terms of the treaty. 
 Those treaties vary in their terms ; in some cases it is compulsory on the 
 British Government to interfere in suc-h a domestic feud. A case which is in 
 point is, I hear, now oc(!Uiring at Bhawulpore. 
 
 2473. IR'W did the Resident act there .'—Tliere was no Resident upon the 
 spot : tlxre is a native agent tliere, but he was absent. The Nawab having 
 tlisinhcrited bis eldest son, the second son succeeded ; now the eldest son has 
 
 raised
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDl.W TKRl{n OKIES. 
 
 201 
 
 raised the standard, and is ^oing; to strike- for tlic tlironc : tliat may be a case 
 for the Britisli Govcriiuu'nt to iiitorfcrc. 
 
 247a. L'nder the Order of Lord William ik'ntinclv, how far do \ ou consider 
 a Resident is justified in interferin"; on behalf of the ruler of the State to which 
 he is attaclied r — The Ivcsident must he f^uided f^enerally l)y the terms of the 
 treaty. Lord W illiam Bentinck would put his construction upon the terms of 
 a treaty ; another Governor-general might put another construction upon it. 
 The Kcsident, of course, would l)e guided l)y the construction which the 
 Government put upon it in each case. 
 
 2475. Do not you think that the fact of different constructions being put 
 upon the same treaties must give rise to an idea that there is bad faith on the 
 part of the paramount party ? — And great inconsistency, and that is the pre- 
 vailinsj feelina;. 
 
 2471). Mr. Jlrtrtfiiiffe.] Do you see any remedv for that? — No remedy l)ut 
 that which I have ah-eady suggested, namely, that where the terms are trouble- 
 some to ourselves we should revise them if we can, but that can only be fairly 
 done with the consent of the other party. 
 
 2477. You can la}' down no definite or general rule .- — No. 
 
 "jir G. R. Clerk, 
 
 K. C. H. 
 
 r, April 1853 
 
 Jovis, 7° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baiin<f. 
 Mr. Elliot'. 
 Mr. Maniilcs. 
 Mr. Cobtlen. 
 SirT. H. Maddock. 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 Mr. Laboiichere. 
 Sir James \\ . Hogg. 
 Mr. Baukes. 
 Mr. Spooner. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Mr. Macaulay. 
 Sir R. H. Inglis. 
 Sir G'eorsie Grey. 
 Mr. J. FitzGerald. 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Mr. Nevvde<;ate. 
 Mr. Milner Gibson. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Mr. R. H. Ciive. 
 Lord Slanlev. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 Sir Erskine Perry, called in ; and Examined. 
 
 2478. Chairman.] WILL you state to the Committee the situations which 
 you held in India, the length of time you filled them, and what opportunities 
 you had of forming an opinion as to the working of the judicial system there r 
 —I was Judge of the Supreme Court of Bombay from April 1841 till November 
 1852, and the last .'> A years I was Chief Justice. During the 11 h years I was 
 in India, I used to occupy all the vacation time I had, which was very consider- 
 able, in going about different parts of India, passing through the country, 
 generallj-^speaking, at marching jiaee, 12 or II miles a day. I took all possible 
 opportunities of going about to vi^it the law courts, and became acquainted, as 
 1 necessarily should, with the members of the judicial service of India. I also 
 passed three months in Ceylon during one of those vacations, where I em- 
 ployed my time in the same way, especially directed thereto b)' knowing that 
 a diflerent judicial system had been introduced there. I took every opportunity 
 of visiting the law courts in that island, and saw a good deal of their working. 
 
 2479. Tlie Committee have had a statement of the judicial systems now 
 in operation in India ; they wish to know your opinion of the working of 
 those systems ; what is yom- opinion, in the first jilaee, of the operation of 
 the Supreme Court; does it give general satisfaction in the part of India 
 which you are acquainted with .'—The system of the Supreme Court is founded 
 
 0.10. Cc on 
 
 Sir E. Peril 
 
 Anril
 
 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Su E. Fcrrj. on a totally different principle to that of the Company's judicial system; 
 
 — it has had very many faults attending its operation. It was introduced 70 or 
 
 7 April 1P53. 80 years ago, before anv investigations into the law of procedure had com- 
 menced. The system was introduced into India, as 1 may say bodily, from this 
 country ; that is to say, as the system was intended to provide for all the legal 
 wants of the connnunit}' among wliom it was placed, it was necessary to apply all 
 the jurisdictions in operation in tills country : but instead of framing one general 
 system of procedure ai)plicable to those uants, it was found the simplest way, 
 and in point of fact no other niode had been then recommended by anybody, to 
 adopt all the different forms of all the different courts in England. For example, 
 the equity system of the Court of Chancery was adopted, the common law sys- 
 tem of the Court of Queen's Bench was adopted, the system in practice in the 
 Ecclesiastical Courts and in the Admiralty Court was adopted, and the system 
 from time to time of Insolvency and Bankruptcy was also adopted. Therefore, 
 those judges had to administer the whole of the law of England according to 
 very difficult and i-omplicated modes of procedure, the consequence of which 
 was that the complic^ation involved obscurity and expense ; and also the fees that 
 were permitted to be taken by the officers and by the attorneys of the court were 
 very high; I believe nbout 100 per cent, higher than they are in this country. 
 The consequence of all those facts which I have adverted to has been to make the 
 course of procedure of the Supreme (Jourt extremely expensive, and therefore 
 of course very defective. But notwithstanding all those defects and the defects 
 of the English law generally as respects procedure, which have been from time 
 to time during the last '20 years reformed, my own ojnnion is, that the sys- 
 tem of the Supreme Courts has been extremely satisfactory to the natives 
 among whom they have been placed. Ihey are formed upon the model of 
 English courts of justice, which I myself believe to be the most satisfactory 
 system ever yet established in a civilized country. The Supreme Court, ad- 
 ministering the la \ in the same public manner and under the same checks of an 
 able l)ar and of publicity, have been enabled, cceteris paribus, to give the same 
 satisfaction to the community as the coiu'ts of justice in this country do to the 
 community of England, and 1 think there will be found many facts to corrobo- 
 rate my opinion, which is founded upon the opinion of the native communities 
 to whom I refer. 
 
 2480. The proceedings ;ire carried on in the l-lnghsh language '1 — They are 
 carried on entirely in the English language ; it would be impossible at a pre- 
 sidency town, and espccialty at Bombay, to carry on the proceedings in any 
 other language. 
 
 ^248 1 . \Yill you state to the Committee what remedies you would suggest 
 tor the purpose of removing the defects you have referred to .' — A good many 
 of the defects are now in course of being remedied, and if more assistance had 
 been given from the Home Government most of those defects would even now 
 have disappeared. 1 he first obvious conclusion to be adopted is one upon 
 which ] see jurists in this country are all unanimous. Lord Brougham, and 
 Lord Campbell, and others, treat it as absurd that the same judges should be 
 sitting to hear a motion in equity, and 10 minutes afterwards should be sitting in 
 law cases, a case being banditfl about from one side of the court to the other. A 
 ease arising in law is found ])erhaps to involve principles of equity, and it is sent 
 over to the other sic'e of the court, as it is called, and then when that cause 
 gets to the equity .side it is found that it involves principles of law, and it is 
 therefore sent back again. I observe that all the great jurists in this country 
 treat that as an a1«urdity ; therefore the first obvious remedy would 1)(! to 
 have all causes come on in the .Supreme Court of Justice, on whatever side 
 they ari^', in the same manner ; they all arise out of the same subject matter, 
 legal difficidties between individuals; I would refer them all to one system of 
 procedure. That scheme was projjosed some years ago by the Law Coinmis.sion, 
 as other schemes were, but from want of strength, I think, in the Executive 
 Goverinnent such r;chemes were never carried out. 
 
 2482. You would introduce the principle of a fusion of law and equity, the 
 judg(! deciding cases of both descriptions without separate appeals? — Without 
 going from one side of the court to thi; other. 
 
 248;^. Would tii:it remove the objection whi(;h you have mentioned, arising 
 from the complication of the system of law, and the consequent delay whicli 
 occurs ? — The delay is not so very great in the Suj)reme Courts ; it is the 
 
 expense
 
 SELECT COMMriTEE ON INDIAN TI'RRITORIES. 
 
 203 
 
 expense which is the principal difficulty, and the ignorance on the part of tlie 
 practitioners as to the proper mode in which to shape their case. It is very 
 often doubtful whether such and sucli a matter of litigation belongs to law or to 
 equit)-. There are flagrant exa i pies on record of a case jjcnding for years 
 on the law side of the court, and being referred to the equity side, and then 
 when it comes on in equity being discovered to be a law case. 
 
 L'4S4. How would you remedy the evila arising from expense ? — The judges 
 have it, in some degree, in their power to cut down the fees, but there is a con- 
 stitutional objection to the judges exercising much legislative power, and also 
 there is the esjjrif dc corjj.s, which one can easilj- imagine to exist, oj^erating to 
 prevent their interfering largely with the emoluments of the practitioners, with 
 whom they are daily coming into cumnexion ; therefore there is great diffi- 
 culty in tlie judges undertaking such a task ; it seems to be more fit to be 
 undertaken by the Legislature, and I should think therefore that it belongs to 
 their office to interfere. One of the main (|uestions connected with (colonial 
 litigation is, whether the division between advocate and attorney should exist. 
 The Comu.ittee is aware that in early days the attorney exercised a very sub- 
 ordinate office in the conduct of litigation. He was a mere clerk who looked 
 over the transcripts and entrances on the iccord, and was paid accordingly ; 
 the barristers supplied the mind, and had the bulk of the emolument ; but in 
 these days the attorney very often is just as well educated as the barrister, and 
 knows just as much of the law ; very often he is in exactly the same position 
 of society, one brother being a barrister, and the other au attorney. Accord- 
 ingly the attorney requires to be as largely retributed as the barrister, but 
 when a native has to pay those two honoraria of course it is very onerous upon 
 him, and therefore it is a serious question for the Colonial Government whether 
 those two functions should not he joined in one as they are in some colonies, 
 and as they are in America. In a countr)^ like India, where the natives are 
 comparatively poor, it becomes of very great importance. 
 
 248",. The Committee understand you to say that the decisions of the 
 Supreme Court are guided by the laws of the various courts existing in 
 England ; is that system satisfactory, or would you have a special code for the 
 guidance of the Su;)reme Court ? — That question is very closely connected 
 with the great question of a code for India. The conclusion I have arrived at 
 is a very simple one, but it embraces the whole subject. The Supreme Courts 
 at the Presidencies adtcinister the law of England with the exception, so far 
 as respects the Gentoos and Mussulmen, of the law relating to their succes- 
 sions and contracts. The effect of that has been to introduce the Enghsh law 
 entirely, so far as it is applicable, into the Presidencies of Calcutta, Madras, 
 and Bombay. Those three Presidencies comprise the greatest wealth and the 
 greatest intelligence among the native community. The mode in which that 
 law was introduced was by a clause in the Charter of Justice, not expressly 
 saying the English law shall be adopted, but impliedly so ; and reserving to the 
 Gentoos, as the}' are called, and the Mahomedans, their laws of contract and 
 their laws of succession. But in practice the English law, as to the first 
 branch of the exception, has been administered, the law of contracts. It is 
 obvious in all civilized countries, and the enlightened among the Hindoos are 
 civilized, that the laws of contracts, except as to certain formal contracts, are 
 very much the same. Jlie office of a court of justice is to enforce contracts 
 between man and man ; therefore the English law of contracts has been tacitly 
 adopted by the natives as an eqvntable rule to resort to in case of difference ; 
 but with respect to questions of succession, on which of course the peoj)le are 
 very much interested to preserve their old customs, the Hindoo and Mahouiedan 
 rules have been exclusively followed by the Supreme Couits. Therefore the 
 clause to which I am referring has had the effect of applying the rule respect- 
 iwg contracts taken from the English Code to every litigated question which 
 arises in the courts of justice. The English Code therefore, with the single 
 exception I have mentioned, prevails. The conclusion I di-aw from thence, 
 which I say is connected with a large question, is, that as the English law has 
 thus been introduced with so much ease and advantage, a similar rule applied 
 to all India will obviate a very great many of the difficulties which now occur. 
 If the English law with a similar clause, or perhaps a more carefully worded 
 one, proceeding on our experience of the last /O years, were thus introduced, 
 you would supply to our administrators throughout India a simple mode of 
 
 0.10. c c 2 finding 
 
 sir £. Perry, 
 
 7 April 1853.
 
 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEIORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry, findiiiii out \vhat tlu^ rule is on evt-ry subject which can arise ; tliey would find 
 
 numerous conipendiums of the i'nglish law on contracts and mortgages, and 
 
 7 Ai)ril 1853. jjj tiiose various ([uestions which occur in courts of justice read}' to their 
 hands, and the introduction, so far from being objected to by the native 
 connnunitv, would be found a vei'V clear and lucid guide to them in all their 
 legal difficulties, ^\'hat the natives of India require is. that their own customs 
 should be preserved, and their laws of inheritance and succession. 
 
 2486. You were understood to say that the conduct of the judges of the 
 Supreme Court gave satisfaction, and inspired the natives with confidence? — 
 I take that to be the case. 
 
 2487. With regard tc the Company's Courts, will you state to the Committee 
 what your general views are of their efficiency? — ]\ly knowledge of the Company's 
 Courts is founded partly on casual visits I have paid to them from time to time, 
 but chiefly irom great intimacy with members of the civil service of India, 
 especially the judicial service, and also from the reports of cases in the papers 
 of the Sudder .\dawlut, which I have always made it my duty to study when 
 I could come in contact with them. My ojjinion of the Company's judicial 
 system is very unfavovu'able to those courts ; they have adopted almost all the 
 evils of the English svstem, in my opinion, without any of the advantages. 
 \\herever I go in India, I hear the civil service disparage the system, and I 
 hear members of the .Judicial Branch, especially the ablest men among them, 
 denounce it also very strongly. The greatest friend I had in India. Mr. Lums- 
 den, was a very eminent judge under that system, and afterwards judicial secre- 
 tary to the Government. I lived in habits of great intimacy with him for years, 
 and have had daily opi)ortunities of considering all the points of the system ; 
 but my knowledge of the courts personally is confined to the visits I have occa- 
 sionally paid to them ^^hile travelling in India. 
 
 2488. Is the impression upon your mind that the defects of which you speak 
 arise from the system itself, or from the incompetency of the judges who carry 
 that system into effect? — Chiefly the latter. I think, however, the system 
 might be verv much improved. The system in Bombay is better, I believe, 
 than the svstem in Bengal. It was adopted at a later date. It was adopted 
 under the guidance of a very enlightened man, Mr. Elphinstoue, with the aid of 
 a very able man, Mr. Erskine, the gi-andson of Sir James Mackintosh. The 
 system therefore is an improvement on the system in progress in other parts of 
 India; still the system is not nearly so simple and lucid as it might be ; it is 
 load(>d with too manv details, and too much complication of procedure. 
 
 2489. Is the result of vour opinion that it would be desirable to introduce a 
 complete change into the system, or are the imjjrovements which are gradually 
 being carried into effect, likely so to ameliorate the system as to render it 
 unobjectionable ?— I have attended to the systems which have been recom- 
 mended for an improvement of the existing state of things, and none of 
 them are satisfactory. I heard the very able evidence given in this room 
 by Mr. Halliday, and I gathered from liim that he would adoj)t a ])lan for 
 the improvement of the qualifications of the Company's judges, namely, a re- 
 vival of the office of registrar, in which young men had a jurisdiction in the first 
 instance, gradually initiating them into the duties of the judicial office. Mow, 
 I confess, I think there are insuiierable objections to that scheme. In the first 
 place the registrarship was al)olished years ago, 1 believe under Lord William 
 Bentinck's government, Ixx-ause it was found that the arrears of judicial 
 l)usiness were so great as to be productive of immense evil to the natives ; 
 accordinsrly native judges were ap])ointed, and thos(^ judges, I think, the Com- 
 mittee will Jiave discovered by the evidence they have already heard, have 
 given great satisfaction by their mode of performing their duties, though they 
 also are not nearly so well educated as they might be ; still tlii'y have given 
 great satisfaction on very small salaries in the offices they have been filling ; 
 that by itself woidd be, 1 should think, an invincible objection to restoring the 
 office of registrar, wiiich was not well filU'd before, and displacing tho.se 
 native judges who are doing their work so extremely well. Secondly, there is 
 a still greater objection on jurisi)rudential views which I think ought to be 
 stfited. i5y sending a young man of 22 or 23 into a registrar's office and 
 teacliing him liow to be a judge, l)y giving him the causes of very poor people 
 to tr\', you apjjcar to be sacrificing the interests of the jjoor for tlie purpose of 
 educating your judges. Certainly my experience teaches me that summary 
 
 jurisdiction
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 205 
 
 jurisdiction is the most diflicult of all to adnuni.stcn-. It requires more expe- sir E. IWrr. 
 
 rience, and, therefore, more knowledge of what has been done Ix'forc, more '- 
 
 conversance witli the rules of wiser men than yourself, in all of which a young April iS.-.i. 
 man is deficient. In rci^ard to sunnnary jurisdiction in all states, hut (!spe- 
 cialiy in a state like India, it is only experienced men, well trained men, who 
 ought to be entrusted with it. The complaint which is made all over India, 
 emanating from native sources, refers I'specially to that point, namel_\-, the 
 evil of what they call boy magistrates and boy judges. 
 
 2490. Would you suggest any change in the mode of procedure before the 
 Company's courts r — 1 think that is one of the most urgent wants of India. 
 Before you commence on a rarjyus juris code of laws, a simple mode of 
 ])rocednre ap))lical)k; to all the courts, I think, would he the greatest boon 
 which the Legislature could confer on India at the present moment. A simple 
 mode of procedure is required, giving summary jurisdiction to certain autho- 
 rities, giving a read}' mode of appeal to the u|)per courts, which should l)e in use 
 in all i)arts. I have had occasion frequently to consider the que^tion, and I con- 
 ceive such a simple mode as I suggest would be equally applicable in the Presi- 
 dency town of Bombav, and to the enlightened Europeans and intelligent natives 
 there, as to the jungles of Sindh ami other ])arts of the country where 30U 
 have only one administrator, with a very unintelligent population. 
 
 2491. Would not that render necessary the enactment of special codes ? — 
 One special code of procedure only, oi'ganizing the judicial establishments, 
 stating the mode in w'hich appeals shall be conducted, and regulating the 
 mode in which litigants shall bring their cases before the judgment seat. We 
 are recurring to those very principles in England now ; every day we are sim- 
 plifying the operation, and facilitating to suitors the mode of getting their 
 grievances brought before the courts. If you look back to Indian history, you 
 will find that, in her most enlightened periods, under her best sovereigns, 
 exactly the same simple system prevailed that we are now attempting to intro- 
 duce into this country. In one of the Hindoo plays Professor Wilson has 
 translated, giving a picture of manners 2,000 years ago, and showing- a great 
 state of refinement, in one of the scenes a law court is introduced on the staae, 
 and you see the proceedings which took place then : the judge, assisted bv two 
 assessors ; the witnesses coming into court, giving their evidence viva voce, 
 pleadings viva voce ; women coming forward as witnesses, which is verv much 
 objected to now in the native systems ; and full opportunity given to anv one 
 to come forward and make the full defence which he has to make. That is the 
 same kind of system that we are now inti'oducing into the county courts of this 
 country, to the great satisfaction of the public : so in the nati\e kingdom of 
 Nepanl, which is a very flourishing semi-Hindoo kingdom, (the Committee is 
 aware that the Nepaulese race is a mixture of Hindoos and mountaineers, with 
 a native population also under them, the system of procedure is founded 
 exactly on the same simple, and, I think, philosophical principles, principles dic- 
 tated by common sense. So also among the natives, when they hold those 
 j)unchayets that the Committee hear of so much, exactly the same system is in 
 operation ; therefore what I am suggesting is clearly in harmony with the 
 wants and the intelligence of the ))eople, namely, this simple system of procedure 
 throughout all parts of India. 
 
 2492. Are you in favour of all the proceedings in the courts, both civil and 
 criminal, being cai-ried on by means of oral evidence r — Certainly. 
 
 2493. Would you be favourable to the introduction of a system of juries in 
 India? — We use juries in Bombay, and in the other presidency towns, under 
 the Supreme Court, in all criminal cases. These juries, in latter years, by a 
 measure emanating, I believe, from Lord Glenelg, when he was President of the 
 Board of Control, have been composed, a jiortion of them, of natives and the other 
 portion of Europeans ; certainly I found great facility in administering the law 
 with such assistance. The elderly natives, who were first of all i)ut on to the jury 
 list, the test of whose qualification was a knowledge of English, and certain 
 means of subsistence, were not verv useful, but young men, educated during 
 the last 10 or 15 years, have shown great aptitude for the office, and have very 
 ■often been of great assistance in eliciting truth in com|)licated native inquiries ; 
 therefore my experience of native jurors is extremely favourable. 
 
 2494. Would you find competent natives ready and anxious to serve as jurors 
 in the interior ? — There is one mode of introducing natives of intelligence and 
 
 0.10. c c 3 experience
 
 2o6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir £. Petrv. experience on to the jury list, which would be most efficacious, namely, by 
 
 . 1 associating them with Europeans of station and intelhgence, as we do in the 
 
 7 April 1853. Presidency. The natives in the interior, of course, will be very unwiUing to 
 leave their cmploynients and give up their time to the public service, \niless 
 they are remunerated, or unless they are treated with something like dignity, 
 and a sense of gratitude shown for their services ; but if you were to associate 
 such men with intelligent Euroi)ean gentlemen in the Mofussil, efficient juries 
 might be formed, 1 think, with great advantage. There is one body of men on 
 wfhom you might draw for jury services with like advantage, namely, officers 
 •of the army, who are stationed in the Mofussil, in all the zillah tonns 
 especially, and who really have very little to do ; it is a system which has been 
 in use in some of the colonies in early days, under circumstances some- 
 what similar to tiioseuow existing in India, and I have heard that their services 
 were extremely valuable, as you would expect from men of such station. It 
 will be remembered that officers of the army have judicial functions to perform 
 in their court martial system, also under a very complicated mode of procedure, 
 sitting, as they sometimes do, for 20 days, to try a case which would be decided 
 in the Court of Queen's Bench in three or four hours. If you would associate 
 with them thi'ee or four natives, of different localities, who are conversant with 
 English, which I would make a test for admission to any jury list, you would 
 secure the services of admirable coadjutors in the administration of justice. 
 
 2495. Why would you make it a test that they should be conversant with 
 English r — It is the best test of educational progress. Our schools are spread- 
 ing over the country ; the English language is sought after as a means of ad- 
 vancement, and anyone who has attained a knowledge of the English language 
 must be looked on as a man who is endeavouring to advance himself in the 
 road of civilization, and as possessing certain capacitJ^ 
 
 2496. Could you rely upon the independence of the verdict of a native jury ? 
 — Yes, I think so ; if you have them associated with Europeans in this manner, 
 not making the juries too large, and giving the power of challenge, so that in 
 a great caste case you would strike out any notorious or leading members of 
 the particular caste whose interests were on the tapis. 
 
 2497. ^A'ould you make the verdict of such a jury final, or leave the judge 
 the power of revising it r — I maintain rather a different opinion from that 
 entertained by some very distinguished men on this subject, Mr. Cameron for 
 example, who introduced the system into Ceylon, and also Mr. Halliday, whose 
 opinion I heard here. I would make their verdict conclusive ; 1 think the great 
 value of a jury is to put a final (conclusion on a subject matter of inf|uiry 
 involving much difficidty. If you get a jury composed of trustworthy men, on 
 whom the power of challenge has been exercised, to give their decision 
 after the case has been summed up by the judge, it is in all matters of con- 
 flicting evidence the most satisfactory mode which has been yet devised of 
 putting an end to litigation. That applies principally, of course, to criminal 
 cases, where the facts are simple. In Ceylon I saw the system in operation 
 \\hich has been spoken of, the decision of the juries there not being final, and 
 1 must sa}' it seemed to me to work extremely ill ; it gave great dissatisfaction 
 to both the European and the native conununity. The native juries were 
 treated with a great deal of indifference : you would hear the judges summing 
 up to them to the effect, " It does not signify what your opinion is, though i 
 must take it ;" and setting it aside in that manner. The juries found that they 
 were not treated with consideration, and they gave very little attention to the 
 subject matter. I sat one day with a very distinguished native judge, a Cinga- 
 lese gentleman, and observed the mode in which he conducted the system, 
 treating the jur\- with great deference ; and I could see that under his hands 
 the system would answer very well, but it would require a great deal of care in 
 carrying out the system. Attempts would be made to conciliate the opinions 
 of the natives, such as you caimot exiieet in the ordinary administration of 
 justice. Therefore I am clea'-ly of opinion that if juries are instituted, their 
 decisions must be made final, subject, of course, to a new trial, or to the cor- 
 rection, such as we iia\(' in England, of the eiTors of juries. 
 
 249S. You mentioned that juries were sometimes employed before the 
 Supreme Court; is their verdict final there r — It is. 
 
 2499. Is unanimity required? — Yes; it is a jury of 12, and unanimity is 
 required. 
 
 2500. Sir
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 207 
 
 2500. Sir C. Wood.^ It is an English jury, is it ? — It is a jury composed of sir E. Perry. 
 six Europeans and six natives, or some ])roportion of the kind. 
 
 2501. Chaii7n(ui.] You would allow tlie juiluc to e.hara;e the jury and explain 7 April i8;V3 
 the law, as is done in this country ? — Yes ; I would not only allow it, but 
 
 enjoin it. 
 
 2.502. Would not a native jury be generally guided by a desire to satisfy the 
 judge: — I do not think that that is the case; I have had nearly 12 years' 
 experience of the matter, and have found juries went very often contrary to 
 my sununing up ; the grand juries would sometimes take the facts from me, 
 and decide the law for themselves. 
 
 2,')0.5. In stations where Europeans are not to be found, would you have an 
 exclu.sively native jury r— The sessions judge, in Bomba), holds the criminal 
 trials in the Mofussil at what is called a zillah station, where Europeans are 
 found ; all the chief cases are tried before the sessions judge. 
 
 2,504. Do you think there would be no inconvenience experienced on that 
 account ? — No. 
 
 -.';0.5- Would your recommendation extend to civil cases? — As to the 
 Supreme Court at Bombay, of which I speak with knowledge, I have often 
 thought it would be a very good thing to give to litigants in the Supi'eme 
 Court the power of having a jur^" when they chose. If it were wished to have a 
 jury summoned for the trial of a cause, it should be competent for them to do 
 so ; 1 do not see why in all cases where native jurors are called on, they 
 should not be remunerated for their services, as a special jury is in this 
 country. We remunerate special juries, at the rate of a guinea each for the trial, 
 and if native services are to be called in, the same system I think would be 
 appUcable to them, and would jjroduce very good juries on many occasions. 
 Ihis mode would be applicable to all causes which arise, both civil and 
 criminal. 
 
 2506. Would you think it desirable to extend that system beyond the Pre- 
 sidency of Bombay and apply it throughout the country? — Yes, decidedly. 
 Whenever 1 go in the Mofussil, and I have been a great deal in it, I find 
 extremely intelligent Hindoos who are fully competent to enter upon these 
 matters, subject to this condition, remuneration in some way or other, either 
 by wa)" of dignity and consideration, or remuneration in the more vulgar 
 form of money. 1 think the system is quite applicable to the zillah stations, 
 where Europeans are congregated, or to which regiments may be near, by an 
 association of the natives with Europeans, which is the mode we have adopted 
 in Bombay, and by a payment of five or ten rupees a trial, which would be a 
 kind of honorarium, and would induce traders and merchants to give up their 
 time willingly to a useful public service. I have been through the native states 
 of Rajpootana, which are wholly independent of English influence, and wherever 
 I went I found extremely able and intelhgent men ruling the country according 
 to their own methods, having on all subjects of conversation with them large 
 and clear ideas, and who would be quite competent to all the duties which I have 
 been referring to. 
 
 2/507. There is a small cause court in Bombay, is not there ? — Yes. 
 
 2508. Does that work efficiently ? — It works efficiently, but not so efficiently 
 as the small cause court, wliich it displaced about three years ago, very mucb 
 for the same reasons which I have already referred to. The judges of the 
 Supreme Court at Bombay had framed a small cause court on the very first 
 establishment of that institution. It was found that the complicated system 
 I have spoken of vras very expensive to poor suitors, and that it ojjcrated 
 as a denial of justice, and accordingly the first judge who was there, at 
 the end of the last century, instituted a small cause court for the trial of causes 
 under l.'j/., by summary procedure. That court gave great satisfaction to the 
 natives, being presided over by the chief justice of the court. The juriscUction 
 was extended from time to time. Sir James Macintf^sli was one of the judges ; 
 Sir Edward \\ est, another very able man, succeeded liim, and extended it very 
 much, and each extension gave additional satisfaction to the natives. Sir 
 David Pollock, when he came out as chief justice, and myself, went on the 
 same principle, extending it still further, and we gave it a jurisdiction of 600 
 rupees, or 60 /. We also endeavoured, by the aid of the Legislature, to 
 get an act passed for the purpose of giving a small equity jurisdiction to the 
 court, and introducing the uniform code of civil procedure, which I have ad- 
 
 0.10. c c 4 verted
 
 2o8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. verted to. Such an Act was read a first time in Council, but so much clamour 
 
 was raised against it by the attorneys at Bombay, who saw, I suppose, the 
 
 7 April 1853. beginning of an end, that the Court of Directors was probably intimidated 
 from encouraging such a recommendation, and the small cause court, which now 
 exists, was introduced in its stead, giving a small jurisdiction to the judges, 
 and superseding the functions of the Supreme Court, by creating new judges 
 in their place. Therefore my answer is, that though the small cause court is 
 doing well, it is not doing so well as the coiu't which it superseded. 
 
 2509. How was that court, which was superseded, constituted? — The court 
 was the Supreme Court, sitting in summary jurisdiction, on rules framed by 
 themselves, and sanctioned by the Privy Council, for the trial of small causes 
 in an economical and summary manner ; we sat cnce a week, and tried 15 or 
 20 causes a day. 
 
 2510. Is it your opinion that it would be desirable to maintain the present 
 distinction between the Crown Courts and the Company's Courts, or to 
 amalgamate them .' — I think it is extremely desirable to avnalgamate them, and 
 one of the first institutions for the improvement of India would be to let all 
 the justice of India run in the Uueens name, that is, even su^jposing the pre- 
 sent system of double government is retained. That was a suggestion of 
 Warren Hastings 70 years ago, who knew the institutions of India, i suppose, 
 as well as any man who has ever been in the service, and 1 think it would be 
 one of the first steps to the introduction of a good system, to allow all the 
 judges in India to be Queen's judges, an appeal from them lying in all cases to 
 Her Majesty in England. I would make every court a Crown court throughout 
 the country. This system which I suggest would, to a great extent, prevent that 
 collision of courts which now takes place ; it would facilitate judicial inquiries 
 from one part of the country to another ; you would have such a scheme as 
 prevailed under the civil law, namely, letters of request from one court to 
 another, by which assistance might be given in conducting every inquiry ; you 
 would therefore secure many of the results of a good judicial establishment, 
 getting uniform decisions at the smallest ])ossible exf)ense. 
 
 251 1. An appeal to the Queen in Council would still be allowed ? — Of course ; 
 that I suppose is connected with the supremacy of this country, and the power 
 of regulating distant dependencies. 
 
 2512. You would unite the Supreme Court and the Sudder Adawlut ? — Yes. 
 
 2.513. Sir C. fFood.] Constituting one high court supreme in each Presi- 
 dency : — Yes. 
 
 2.514. Chairman.^ The zillali courts would still remain r — Yes; if you want 
 to introduce a good judicial system, I think you should put those zillah courts 
 into complete harmoin' with the Supreme Court and even give those zillah 
 courts, or rather the judges of them, an object of ambition in beins^; appointed 
 to the Supreme Court occasionally, so as to give the stimulus of the hojie of 
 promotion to all the judicial officers throughout the whole system, if they show 
 themselves able administrators, and are esteemed by the natives and the 
 Government. 
 
 2515. How would you select the zillah judges? — I have stated already that 
 1 do not think the Company's judicial officers are competent judges, and I do 
 not think that their system will ever produce eompeient judges. In all the 
 different st.'hcmes 1 have heard suggested I see cither attempts to do what is 
 being done now, which avowedly i believe has failed, or such an exi)ensive 
 mode of training for judicial offices suggested as to be wholly out of the 
 question when we look at the embarrassed st;ite of the finances of India, which 
 does not enable you to give adequate salaries to those natives to Avhom you 
 are obliged to entrust a great part of your administration. It seems to me 
 that the system of the Conq)any's civil service, which is exircmely effective 
 for pr(jducing one class of administrators, namely, collectors and political 
 (iiplomaiists, is wholly inefficient to jn-oducc good judges, and therefore as it 
 failft in so doing (at least 1 state the result of my exi)erience, which I believe 
 is confirmed by a great many conqietent men,) 1 think you must resort to some 
 better system for supplying a ifood judicial establishment. 
 
 2.510. With wh(jm would you lodge the selection of the zillah judges? — That 
 would depend upon what class of men you resort to. It appears to me that 
 we have now a very long exijcrience to act on, and that we need not adopt any 
 a priori theories, but look to the operation of events. What I would suggest 
 
 as
 
 SELECT COISIMITTEE ON INDIAN TEllRITOIUES. 209 
 
 as the result of past exi)eririu;e is that, comijarini^ the two systems of judicial Sir E. I'errij. 
 
 et:tablislmKiits in India, iiaiucly, tlic (-iuecn's Courts where the offices are filled 
 
 by i)nifessioual men, and the Company's Courts, wliere the offices are filled b)' 7 -^P"^'' '853- 
 any men \o\\ can ))iek up from tlie civil service, the one has given great 
 satisfaction to the natives, (hough attended by many defcts which I have 
 referred to, whieli are in course of reformation, and the other has not given 
 satisfaction at all, nor is it capable of giving satisfaction. Therefore, having 
 succeeded in m;d\ing the yujjreme Court satisfactory to the natives, I think 
 you should ai)i)ly the same pro(;ess to those other courts which hav(; not given 
 satisfaction. 1 v.oidd suggest tliat as regards all courts where a Euroi)ean 
 agency and suiiervision is required, you sliould resort to the same body from 
 whom \o\\ select the officers for the Suin-eme Court in India, naniel)-, gentle- 
 men of xhe bar in England, Scotland, aiul Ireland, who have I'ecommendcd 
 themselves to the Government of the (hu'. 
 
 251 7. \ ou would ap]K)int them zillah judges r — Yes. 
 
 '2'y\'6. And you would appoint them through the Crown? — Yes. 
 
 2519. AVould there be no inconvenience in their ignorance of the native 
 languages r — That is an objection very largely insisted on by all the Com|)any"s 
 officers. I do not deny that a knowledge of the languages and a knowledge of 
 the customs of the peoi)le are most' important ingredients in the fitness of a 
 judge in India for his office ; but in dealing v.ith questions of this kind, no 
 man who looks at the whole subject can deny that vou have before you only a 
 choice of evils. We are a nation of foreigners governing India; it is ovn- duty 
 to govern it in the best mode that we can ; you must either appoint experi- 
 enced judges to those offices which }-ou think ous:ht to be filled by Englisl)- 
 nien, or put young men into a station wliere tliey may ae(|uire knowledge of • 
 the native language and customs, to fit them hereafter for that office ; and J 
 think the proposal I suggested is the least inconvenient of the two ; I test it 
 b}' experience. The Queen's judges who are ignorant of the native languages 
 and customs give satisfaction, as I have described, to the native community ; 
 in point of fact, there is a much mure important knowledge required in a judge 
 than a knowledge of the native languages or the native customs, namely, a 
 knowledge of mankind, and a knowledge of the principles of jurisprudence ; 
 and those are only to be acquired by age, and by special study. A judge in 
 this country, going down into Yorkshire or into C uml'Crland, or especially into 
 Wales, whicli I have often heard assimilated to India, has frequently to try 
 questions involving native customs, and habits, and manners, whicli had never 
 come before him, and which are wholly different from those prevailing in the 
 class of society in which he mo^ es ; but he heais those matters spoken to by 
 witnesses ; he hears counsel bringing them forward in a prominent manner, 
 and at the end of the trial he has to decitle upon those matters upon the 
 evidence before him, the evidence of the most skilful persons who can be col- 
 lected. Exactly the same process has to be gone through in India ; and I see 
 no greater difficulty in an experienced judge trying a native custom there (as I 
 have often had the task to perform myself) tlian a judge woidd liave in dealing 
 with customs of bundling, or anything similar to it, in Wales, which might be 
 very novel and strange. 
 
 2520. .'\ccording to the i)lan whicli you have sketched out, in what manner 
 would the proceedings in the zillah courts take place? — The language in the zillah 
 courts at present is the vernacular language of tlie country ; they are presided 
 over by an English judge, who, in the part of India to which I belonged, is very 
 seldom conversant with all the languages, and is never conversant with them in a 
 manner in which a judge ought to be who has to deal with evid.-nce and with 
 argumentation. The Comndttee is aware that in the Bombay Piesideiicy, the 
 languages prevalent are tlie Mahratta, Guzcratee, and Canarese, those are the 
 three vernacular languages, but I think if you look at the almanacks and the 
 returns, you will find that many of the judges are not conversant with those 
 languages. The language of the courts therefore, to a very great extent, is 
 Hindostanee, which is not the vernacular in the Prrsideney, except amongst a 
 few of the Mahomedan jjopulation, but not largely amongst tliem. Therefore 
 in point of fact, the language of business is not the language of the country. 
 The effect of that is that the evidence is giA'en before the judge in a language 
 which he does not thoroughly com])rehend, and it is written in a language which 
 1 may say he never comprehends, for the native language is so difficult to read. 
 
 0.10. D D that
 
 210 MINUTES OF EVIDF.NCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perrif. that it requires a most experienced native scribe to make out the document. The 
 
 — — consequence is that the judge in the zilhih court is seen to be i-eadingnot with 
 
 7 April 1853. j^jj^ (,^yjj ^.ygg^ ai^fl hearing not with his own ears ; a Mahratta deposition, or a 
 Canarcse deposition isread off to him in Hindostanee by his native officer. The 
 document, which he cannot read at all, is put before him : he does not look at 
 it because it is written in this difficult cursive writing of the natives, where all 
 the vowels are left out, which is most unintelligible even to learned Brahmins ; 
 therefore the spectacle is seen of the judge relying to a great extent upon his 
 native officials for the conclusion to which he arrives. That is an evil pointed 
 out by all those who have had experience in the service, and it is the com- 
 plaint of the native? ; whereas, in the other system of courts (and that is one 
 of the points I ought to have noticed), the judge is seen, whetlu'r he decides 
 rightly or wrongly, to decide entirely on the evidence, which everybody has 
 heard, and everybody can judge of. Therefore, when the language of the 
 zillah courts is in question, if it is decided to appoint European judges to 
 those courts, I am clearly of opinion that for the due administration of justice 
 the Ensilish language ought to be the language of business. The zillah 
 courts in the Bomliay Presidency, I think, are eight in number. The judges 
 are the chief judges of the country ; they are the chief ci'iminal judges, and 
 thev are judges in appeal from all the subordinate native courts. They sit at a 
 zillah town, which, as I said before, in our Presidency is always a lai'ge capital, 
 with Europeans belonging to it, and there is as much publicity thrown over their 
 proceedings as is possible in the state in which India is. The English language 
 is now the language in which those judges are obliged to record their decisions, 
 and which they use in sending up a case to the Sudder Adawlut. If you 
 appoint professional men, such as I speak of, the object of course is to intro- 
 duce the greatest amount of publicity, and to create the greatest check upon 
 them possible in the administration of their functions, and the use of the 
 English language of course enables the Government, and enables the authori- 
 ties at home to exercise that vigilant check. The members of the Government, 
 or the Privy Council, or the President of the Board of Control, can, in glancing 
 through the proceedings, see at once what the course of the evidence has been, 
 and what the judgment of the Court is ; therefore, with the least possible 
 expense, you have a record of the proceedings in each case transmitted to the 
 Court of Appeal, and transmitted home when needful. The judge, also, has an 
 instrument of logomachy in his own hands, his own language, with which he 
 is able to meet, of course, the advocates at the bar, and deal with the evidence. 
 Therefore, so far as English administrators are concerned, there can be no ques- 
 tion whatever that the English language is the proper language for our officials 
 to use in the transaction of business. But then there remains the very important 
 consideration how the natives will be affected by it ; how you will sii])ply a native 
 Ijar, and how you will make the proceedings which take i)lace in English intel- 
 ligible to the native public, whom you have to endeavour to attract to your court. 
 After much consideration of tlie matter I do not think any difficulty at all occurs 
 on this point. In Bombay all the observations which 1 make are founded upon 
 my own experience there, though I believe Bengalis ecjually favourably situated, 
 and perliaps more so. You have at present a large and increasing class of 
 ^■(jung men who are educating themselves in English to fit themselves ior the 
 liovernment service, and as young men do in this country, for advancement in 
 life generally. Tliose men are most availalile for the offices of vakeel or advo- 
 cate, and for the situations occupied by the native judges, whom yon are now 
 largely employing; and I feel no doubt that if an institution were adopted 
 to the effect that in three years the proceedings in all those zillah courts shall 
 be conducted in English, you would have a most al)le bar from the native 
 advocates or vakeels, who would be present rendering their services to the 
 l'uro])ean judge ; but then it is .said, and this was an argument of Eord 
 Auckland (which has been very much relied on) when he al)()lished the 
 Persian language as the language of I)usiness, which was the language of our 
 predec-essors in the Government, and introduced the vernacular laniiuage in 
 its place, that the proci'cdings in courts of justice ought to be in a language 
 intelligible to the people, ^o i\o\ihi, ceteris jmribus, no one will dispute that 
 argument, but in practice I think it will be found that if the evidence in every 
 case is given vivd rore in the nalive language, and inter))reted to thi' judge on 
 the .spot, the proceedings are just as intelligible in the main to the body of 
 
 spectators
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 211 
 
 spectators and the audienci! as they would be if the business were conducted Sir E. I'erry. 
 
 wholly in the vernacular tongue. The audience hear every piece of evidence 
 
 whicli is given, and they see the effect which it produces upon the triljiinal to 7 April 1853. 
 which it is adclressed, either the judge or the jury. I form thai opinion from 
 observing the eagerness with which the natives attended tlie courts of justice in 
 I'ombay when any trial of interest was going on, and their readiness to a])])rec;iate 
 everything that was said, and to understand quite clearly the grounds upon 
 whic;h every decision proceeded. They are not able, of course, to under- 
 stand the arguments of counsel or the reasoninc^s of the judge; but those 
 are understood by the advocates who are jn-esont, and by the enhglitened 
 public to which such reports go forth ; and, I believe, if you consult your own 
 experience, that is all that takes place in an I'^ngHsh court of justice. The 
 audience on tlie back rows of the court do not understand the references to 
 Barnewall and Cresswell, or the logical arguments which are put in a very 
 compendious form ; but the bar understand them, and if the judge is wrong 
 they take down any expression which he may have let fall, and appeal upon it. 
 Therefore, I say, that the interests of the natives will not be injured. On the 
 contrary, they will be furthered by introducing the English language as the 
 language of business into those few superior courts in the provinces. In the 
 courts of first instance which are scattered over the country, of course the 
 language of business will be the vernacular language. Advocates will not be 
 there to conduct the inquiry ; the judge must do nearly all himself ; and of 
 course he must deal as the judges in the county courts do here with the liti- 
 gants face to face. 
 
 2321. Would your idea be to examine native witnesses in English.- — No. 
 The mode in which native witnesses are examined is this : a witness is put into 
 the box ; a question is addressed to him in English, which is interpreted by 
 an interpreter sitting by him. While the question is being put the judge writes 
 down the answer to a previous question, and long before the judge has finished 
 the answer to the first question, the answer to the second question is forth- 
 coming ; therefore no time is lost in the proceeding. 
 
 2522. Can the court and the barristers rely upon the faithful interpretation 
 of the questions and the answers ? — Undoubtedly ; so many persons are in the 
 court who are acquainted with the language. In our court, for example, our 
 interpreters are men of the same high character as those whom Sir Edward 
 Ryan alluded to the other day. They are admirable interpreters ; but some- 
 times they are wrong in the interpretation of some word. One finds immedi- 
 ately from all parts of the court a correction of the expression, and a further 
 investigation takes place. 
 
 2/523. The Committee understand you that in the zillah courts and upwards 
 you would have the English language solely employed ? — Yes. 
 
 2,'324. Below the zillah courts, in all civil courts of the first instance, the 
 native language would continue to be used? — \'es. The practice which I am 
 recommending for the zillah courts is creeping into the Sudder Adawlut ; the 
 Sudder Adawlut, which is the native Supreme (~'ourt of the presidencies, is by 
 law to employ what ought to be the vernacular language of the country ; but 
 in Bengal and in Bombay, certainly in Bombay, it is Hindostanee. I was pre- 
 sent in the court in Bengal, and I hciU'd an English pleader commencing his 
 address in Hindostanee ; but the result was extremely absurd, for so many 
 English forms of expression were obliged to be resorted to, that insensibly the 
 discussion between the judge and the advocate broke into the English lan- 
 guage, with which they were both familiar. 1 think either Mr. Halliday or Sir 
 Edward Ryan stated the other day here, that the English language was coming 
 very much into use in the Sudder Adawlut in Bengal ; that it is so in Bombay 
 I have not the slightest doubt. I know that European arlvocates go there, and 
 conduct a great deal of the business there, and know no other language but 
 Enghsh. 
 
 2)2.5, You have mentioned in )'our evidence that you believed the natives 
 would soon learn English sufficiently well to practise before the zillah courts ; 
 would you require from natives practising the law any previous legal education, 
 especiady if new codes were introduced ? — Certainly ; it is most desirable that 
 there should be the institution of a law college in all the presidencies ; it is 
 one of the first institutions which I think a wise Government would establish 
 there. The subject has been under discussion for some time. I think from 
 
 0.10. D D 2 Bengal
 
 212 MINUTES OF EVIDF.NCR TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Siir E, Perru. Bengal some such instirutioii was recommended: and from Bombay I know, 
 
 for years past, we have been stronglj' enforcing upon the Governmenc tlie pro- 
 
 7 April iS53. pricty of estabhshing some institution for the education of native judges and 
 tlie native bar. All the judges of tirst instance at present are natives, and it 
 was pointed out that it was unwise to have no special institution where the 
 prineij)les of the law could be taught, and that therefore sucli a want ought to 
 be suppHed. So also as lo the English bar. It is competent to a native to 
 come to tlic English bar, and to be made Lord Chancellor, I believe ; but to 
 get the education, or to go through the forms rather, for it is not education, 
 which enable a man to be called to the bar, a young native would have to 
 come to this country, and remain here for five years, which of course is a very 
 objectionable proceeding, and nnist be felt as a great grievance l)y native gen- 
 tlemen who desire to se.id their sons into a liberal profession. Such an insti- 
 tution is a matter of very easy establishment, because a desire exists on the part 
 of the native community to have it ; their funds would be fortlieoming, and a 
 little assistance from the Government is all that is required to organise such an 
 institution. 
 
 2526. By what degrees would you introduce the extensive changes which 
 you have recommended to the zillah courts ": — I think the English language 
 might be introduced to-morrow ; the first thing }ou re(iuire is an Englisli bar ; 
 that is to say, a bar of vakeels speaking English ; directly you offer any situa- 
 tion of good remuneration and respectability to young men of education at 
 Bombay, I am satistit-d su(;h i)0Sts would be tilled up ; the present judges who 
 are administering the law might use the English language at once by having 
 interpreters attached to the court on small salaries, for it is astonishing at 
 what small salaries you can get educated men ; they would at once record 
 their proceedings in English, and conduct tb.e incjuiry in I'higlish. As to 
 wi)ether an English bar could be introduced to-morrow, I should not like to 
 speak so confidently : three years is the time I should allow ; in three years 
 you would get a bar speaking English at the eight zillah courts in the 
 Bombay Presidenc}-. 
 
 2527. Under the present judicial system, is there ample means by which 
 the natives can guard themselves against any abuses of official power ? — I 
 gather principally from a despatch of the Court of Directors that they have 
 some ground of complaint as to the arbitrary mode in which sometimes native 
 employees are treated ; in a despatch from the Court of Directors about two 
 years ago tlierc is some comjjlaint of the mode in which native servants of 
 rank and consideration have been tvn'ued out of office without sufficient inquiry ; 
 I have seen instances in which 1 think a much more summary mode of dealing 
 with native em])loyees has been ado])ted than would be permitted with respect 
 to Englishmen in office: 1 think il deserves great consideration on the part of 
 the Government v.hetner they should not adopt some other method of dealing 
 with alleged delinquencies on the part of officials, some inquiry which should 
 ensure that no corruj)t i)ractic(i should go on, and at the same time secure to 
 the individual a fair and impartial trial, such as he ought to have, before so 
 severe a jjcnalty is inflicted. 
 
 2.-,2S. With respect to what class of officials did this take placer— I hardly 
 like alluding much to particulars, but I have in my mind the case of a native 
 judge accused of corruption and misconduct ; he was tried and turned out 
 of his office. 
 
 2,529. He was tried and convicted r — Yes. 
 
 2530. By whom was he tried: — lie was tried by a zillah judge; the case 
 was got up l)y the assistant-jutlge ; i would not wish to be understood as at 
 all impugning the proj)riety of the sentence. Like every man who has not had 
 to deal wiih a case judicially, 1 am not in a ])osition to form a conclusion 
 either way ; I read llu' evidi nee in the ease, and whether tlie m.in was guilty or 
 not, 1 am satisfied that Ijcfore an iMiglisli jury lu- woiild not have l)een con- 
 victed ; though a proper conclusion m;i\ have been come to, still the result 
 would have l)cen different. 
 
 'J.'J^ 1 . 1 lad he the jjower of appealing : — lie would have the power of ajjpeal- 
 ing to the Sudder Adawlut. 
 
 2.'5;',2. Are you aware whether the individual to whom }'ou refer did appeal? 
 — I am not aware. 
 
 2533. Had
 
 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 21.3 
 
 2',ili]. Iliul he us a native ju(Ii;-(' tlic same means of a|)])eal open (o him wlii'h Sji- /,". I'errt/. 
 any other native wonld have had? — I have no douI)t he would have ; I aim in - — — 
 
 These observations at two chisses of eases, one where a man is turned out after 7 ■'^P'" i8o3- 
 a eommission of iu{|uiry : for example, there is a case whieh is now on the 
 Blue Books before Parliament, the case of Nursoopunt, a very distini^uished 
 native servant, Avho received testimonials from all his various employers during 
 a great many years, and who had receiveil Enamn villat;es, and so on. He was 
 tried under a connnission of iiuiuiry on several charges, aecjuitted of the two most 
 prominent ones, but foiuid guilty of that wliic'h, to a class of readers like myself 
 appeals a very small one, and 1 see the result was, that lie was turned out of his 
 office with ignominy. 1 confess I do not think any l^iglish gentleman of con- 
 sideration and station would be so treated, or would submit to sucli conduct. 
 The other class of eases to which 1 refer are cases where a native officer is 
 tried by a criminal court in the interior on a charge such as I have referred to 
 in a former answer. When you look at the mode in which a ease of this sort 
 is got up, for that is the correct word to express the oi)eration which takes place ; 
 you will see that the preparation for the trial has to be made by a Euroj)ean 
 official ; very often by the assistant judge. The duties which in this country are 
 performed by the attorney for the jn-osecution. of seeking out witnesses and 
 inciuiring into the circumstances which may take, j^erhaps, six weeks or two 
 months to go through, ;n'e performed by a Euro])ean gentleman of iiigh station in 
 the judicial office. This gentleman is inflamed in tlie pursuit of justice ; he is 
 desirous to unmask corruption and villany, but necessarily and naturally his 
 mind is very apt to become a little tinged with over-zeal, and to accjuire, as 
 is often the case with prosecutors, a great bias towards conviction, a great desire 
 to convict if he thinks the crime has taken plnce ; he is in daily contact with 
 the judge, living at the same station with him, and though I do not know 
 the fact, I do not see how it is jiossible to be avoided that those matters which 
 for two or three months before the trial to be investigated form a matter of con- 
 versation at the zillah town, should give rise to decided o])inions as to the guilt 
 or innocence of the individual. When you see of how much importance the 
 conduct of your native employees is, who are men whom you must employ, and 
 whom you should seek to invest with all the dignitv you can, I thinic a different 
 mode of trial should be adopted ; yen should re.-ort to the most eminent court 
 you have, a court wholly unimbued with local prejudices, and the inquiry 
 should take place with all the solemnity that a similar trial would receive in 
 England if a high functionary were accused of crimes and misdemeanors. 
 Therefore, for the sake of the native employees, all such inquiries which tend 
 to conviction, I think should take place before one of the chief Supreme Courts 
 of the coimtr}' ; whether it is the Company's court or the Supreme Court is, 
 in my view, immaterial. 
 
 2.134. Sir C. Jf'ood.] Do you remember Avhat situation Nursoopunt held ? — 
 I know one of his situations was that of native assistant to the Resident at 
 Baroda. 
 
 2535. W^as it a judicial situation ? — It was not. 
 
 •2536. Do you recollect whether tlie charges wliich were brought against him 
 were in any way in reference to any judicial i)roceedings on his part ? — I have 
 not read the proceedings since I left India. 
 
 2;")37. Are you not aware that the charges against him were chai'ges of cor- 
 ruption and misleading his superior, by withholding evidence in the case of the 
 trials of two natives, leading, consequently, to the grossest injustice, which 
 injustice was afterwards repaired by reversing the decisions ? — I think tlu^ 
 principal cliarge against him was the chiirge of having received a large sum of 
 money to influence the mind of his i)rincipal, but I think on that charge he 
 was acquitted. 
 
 253S. Are vou not aware that the Resident was compelled by the Govern- 
 ment to bring the charges against him, to be tried before an independent judge 
 sent down for the purpose of conducting the trial ? — \'es, Mr. Erere. The con- 
 clusion to which I thought Mr. Erere arrived was, that he had used the name 
 of a Bombay civilian, and had boasted of Ids influence with him in an improper 
 manner, and of that charge he was found guilty. 
 
 2539. Were not there charges of long continued corruption on the ])art of 
 Nursoopunt, with reference to a long sei-ies of transactions in which Colonel 
 Outram was concerned r — Yes, but he was acquitted on that inquiry. If he 
 
 0.10. D t) 3 had
 
 214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. had been found guilty of that main charge, my opinion wouhl have been 
 
 different. 
 
 7 April 1853. 2540. Was not he found guihy of witliholding from his chief most important 
 
 evidence, tlie witliholding of which evidence led to two decisions which were 
 subsequently reversed r — I am not aware of that ; I thought the main point on 
 which he was found guilty, was boasting of his influence with Mr. Reid. 
 
 ■J541. Clunrmuit.\ The C'on.mittec under>tand you, that your impression is 
 that the zillah courts ought not to inquire into charges against native officials, 
 but that those charges ought to be carried before the Supreme Court? — Yes, 
 awav from the local scene of the alleged offence. 
 
 254-2. Mx.Macaulai).^ 1 s that answer to be understood to apply to judicial func- 
 tionaries only, or do you mean that the whole body of native functionaries, in all 
 departments, should have the privilege r — lam desirous to carr}' out the despatch 
 of the Court of Directors, in which they reprehend their servants for the mode 
 in which the cmiilovees are often treated. They lay down some very wise rules 
 upon the subject. Witii the large corps of officials which you have in India, with 
 whom it is very desirable to secure purity, and to avoid arbitrary conduct, some 
 mode should be devised of bringing the official to trial before a tribunal of an 
 impartial kind, upon which all the light ot publicity can be shed. 
 
 12543. Chairman.^ You do not mean to say that there is any different law 
 administered in the case of European and native officials, but that in cases where 
 charges are brought against native judicial officials those charges ought to be 
 carried before a court which is not likely to be influenced by local or hidividual 
 prejudices r --Yes ; there is another class of cases that the laws of the country 
 do not sufficiently provide for. Otiicial misconduct, for instance, is not a matter 
 which forms a subject for the Legislature generally to frame statutes upon ; 
 there are a great many matters which may occur which would disentitle a man 
 to continue in the sernce of the Government, but which matters would not 
 form the subject-matter for a statute ; still if one official servant is acting in a 
 way which the Government disapprove of, of course they ought to have the 
 power of turning him out immediately ; but before they do so, it is desirable, 
 for the sake of justice, that some mode should be devised of investigating those 
 cases carefully in order to avoid wrong decisions. 
 
 2544. i\lr. ilitme.] Are the Committee to umlerstand that you approve of the 
 principles laid down in that despatch of the Court of Directors to which you 
 have alluded, for the purpose of the protection of those who have been accused 
 of misconduct r — I aj)})rove most warmly of the despatch. 
 
 2545. Mr Elliot.'] Is it not the case that, in the event of any serious charge 
 being preferred against a civil servant of the Conipan)^, a commission is 
 appointed to inquire into that charge, and in the event of the (Government 
 being satisfied by the report of the commission that he has been guilty of the 
 charge, he is dismissed from his employment without any trial at all ? — \'erv 
 likely. 
 
 •J,54<i. Then a native is in a better position than a civil servant in that 
 respect, the one undergoing a trial, while with respect to the other there is 
 merely an incju'ry ? — I am not aware that a commission is limited to ;i European 
 official ; I suppose it is competent to the Government to issue a commission as 
 to the conduct of any servant of theirs. 
 
 2/547. '^'ht' complaint which you now make is on the part of a man who is 
 tried by a judge, and who has also the power of appealing to a superior autho- 
 rity, and from that again to the Government ; and his case is supposed to be 
 harder than that of a European who has no trial at all, except an inquiry by a 
 commission? — 1 allude to a class of cases which may not form part of the sub- 
 ject-matter of the criminal code, on which therefore you could not bring a 
 native to trial. 
 
 •2548. Sir R. II. In^iii.s:] W ill you explain to the Committee the phrase 
 which you used with n ference to a trial which took place in India, in which a 
 native was convicted, that an Englishman would not submit to it? — As 1 said 
 before, I find the Government of India com])lainiiig of the mode in which 
 native eniployees of character and experience are tin-ned out of their situations, 
 and reprimanding their servants in India for such proceedings. 1 take up that 
 text and I say, that I think some mode should be devised of giving native 
 officials a fair trial in every case of objection to them ; T think it follows from 
 the language of the Court of Directors, that the instances they have observed 
 
 which
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. o,;- 
 
 which called for such a despatch, have produced a degree of injustice which Sir E. Perru. 
 
 would not have heen submitted to i:i the case of English gentlemen of authority - 
 
 and position. - 7 April 18.53. 
 
 J/) 49. Do yon mean to illustrate that by the case to which you called the 
 attention of the ('onnnittee ? — Yes, if that had been the case of an English 
 judge ; I think no pjiiglish judge would have been found guilty by a jin-v in this 
 country' of tlic particular instance of corruption. 
 
 25.50. Sir T. 11. MaddocJtJ] What would you suggest as the jjroper mode of 
 correciing this evil - — In nil eases of offences against the law of the country, 
 such as corruption, or official misconduct, which the law touches, I have already 
 suggested that the trial should take place in the chief court of the presidency, 
 in the court presided over by the most able man with the most able bar. pub- 
 licity attending the jiroceedings on all sides. With respect to proceedings not 
 provided for by the criminal code of the country, I cannot improvise a scheme, 
 not having particularly attended to the subject ; but it is for the Legislature to 
 do as tlie governments of some countries, such as Prussia, have done with a 
 large official class, namely, provide some effectual mode of having a good 
 tribunal to investigate those cases. A commission of inquiry is resorted to in 
 the case of Europeans ; I ha\ e not seen a sufficient nuuiber of instances of 
 them to form an opinion of their efficacy, but some such scheme, I think, should 
 be adopted; as to criminal trials, lam cleai'ly of opinion, th:it in the case of 
 men of rank and station, such as the judges in India, the trial ought to l)e at 
 the presidency town. 
 
 2.551. Mr. MacauUty.'] Are the Committee to understand it to be your 
 opinion that no revenue peon ought to be dismissed for extortion without an 
 investigation b}- the supreme authority ?— I was alluding to the higher class of 
 functionaries. 
 
 2552 Mr. Mangles.\ Do you think the Government should not have the 
 power of dismissing any servant whom it cannot convict of a criminal offence ? 
 — No ; I think the Government sjiould have the power which all masters have 
 of dismissing incompetent servants, or servants who have offended them by 
 their conduct of any kind. 
 
 2553. Mr. Elliot.'] In the event of corruption on the part of any officer of 
 the Supreme Court, what would be the course that would be jmrsued r — What- 
 ever course would be pursued in regard to officials in this country ; the English 
 law would operate. 
 
 2554. Will you have the goodness to state what that course would be. 
 Supposing an interpreter or any other officer of the Supreme Court were 
 accused of gross corruption, what course would be pursued for the purpose of 
 punishing him r — I must do as all lawyers do when a legal point is put before 
 them, tiy and recollect if any case of the kind has occurred within my judicial 
 experience. If one of our interpreters had committed any act of corruption, 
 the judge would have the power of dismissing him at once. 
 
 2555. Without a trial? — I suppose so. 
 
 2556. Supposing he were guilty of such a crime as you refer to as having 
 occurred in a zillah court, mere dismissal would not be sufficient, but you 
 would require to punish him further ? — There is this broad distinction between 
 the Queen's courts and the Company's courts ; the Queen's courts never take 
 the initiative in prosecution, that is done by the grand juries and by the magis- 
 trates ; but in the interior, a judge has so very little assistance from the jjublic, 
 that he is compelled bv the force of circumstances to take those cases into his 
 own hands, and when I spoke just now of the assistant judge getting up a ease, 
 an expression which seemed to have been thought olijectionable on my ])art, it 
 describes, in point of fact, what does occur, and necessarily must occur. The 
 assistant judge, the magistrate, whoever it may be, is ol)liged to look ri^ht and 
 left for evidence, to collect it from all parts, and he jierforms all those functions 
 that the attorney for the prosecution jjerforms in this country. The case 
 comes on for trial before the judge ; the judge does not jjroceed with the case 
 at once as we do in the English system, where we have the jury in tlie box 
 waiting ; but he is compelled by the force of circumstances, if the evidence is 
 not sufficient, to postpone the case, and to put his tinger upon every point 
 which he thinks will elucidate the matter under inquiry. In that manner the 
 functions of prosecutor and judge are ^ery much blended, and 1 think objec- 
 tionably so. You cannot help it in ordinary tiials, where people suffering 
 
 0.10. D D 4 under
 
 2)6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perrii. under a sense of injustice an; induced to come fonvard and give evidence. 
 
 It does not ojjerate so injuriously there, but where the government as represent- 
 
 7 April i8jj. ing the state are the only parties injured, yon have a class of cases in whicli 
 the characters of prosecutor and judge are combined in a i)rejudicial manner in 
 my opinion. 
 
 -557- t^ujiposing yourself to be placed in that situation, feeling tlie position 
 in wliich yon were placed, and knowing what your own feelings are in giving 
 judgment in other cases, would not you be particularly careful in a case of that 
 sort r — The course I should ado])t would be this : the Honourable ^lember sup- 
 l)0ses a flagrant case of orruiJtion occurring in the court over wliicli I pre- 
 sided ; 1 should at once direct the officer of the court to adth'ess a letter to the 
 Government, stating the facts, and recommending then\ to take up this case as 
 representing the Crown, and to bring the inquiry i'uUy before the court. I 
 should then have nothing more to do with the ease, nor would I listen to any 
 information on the subject till the ease was brought before me in the court, 
 when \ should b.ear the case at the bar. If I were in the Mofussil, and such a 
 case occurred, I should have to combine the two olhces of prosecutor and 
 judge ; 1 must collect the evidence in the first instance and try it afterwards. 
 
 2,558. ]Mr. Lowe.] Will you refer to page 1011 of the Blue Book containing 
 the pajjers as to Colonel Outram ; will you read tlie letter from Mr. Frere which 
 you will there find? — "In the first charge, Nursoopnnt was accused of false 
 and unfaithful behaviour, in having conveyed erroneous information, and also 
 in having withheld information from his official superior. This charge was 
 subdivided into four instances, and in all of them except in the second in- 
 stance, Captain French, who was the official su})erior specified, has exonerated 
 Nursocpunt from blame. In the second instance, Nursoopunt ajjpears to have 
 attenij)ted to mislead Colonel Outram. The second charge is betraying his 
 trust, h\ allo\\ing a false claim against Covind Row Cuicowcr to be prosecuted 
 before the Resident, knowing it to be so, and withholding from tlie Resident 
 documents which would have proved a part of the claim to be unjust. This 
 charge has been proved against Nursoopunt. '1 he third charge is a similar 
 betrayal of trust, in not bringing to notice the diminution in the revenues of 
 Cforajee Pole's estate, and allowing a lease to be cancelled witlnuit bringing it 
 to the Resident's notice. Nursoopunt has been acquitted on this charge. The 
 fourth chai'ge is having received a bribe of 20,000 rupees. This charge is not 
 established, but nmch suspicion attaches itself to Nursoopunt. The fifth charge 
 is having received a liribe of 28,0/0 rupees. This charge is also not proved, 
 but great suspicion attaches itself to Nursoopunt. The sixth charge is having 
 instigated Baba Nafra to depute an agent to Bondjay to brilje the Honourable 
 .Mr. Reid. In this case it is proved that Baba Nafra deputed a person to Bum- 
 bay, who si)ent large sums of money ostensibly for purposes of corruption, and 
 that Nursoopunt vias aware of the j/crson l)eing so deputed, and connived at it j 
 but it is not proved that he instigated Baba Nafra to dei)ute the man, or that 
 he was deputed with the specific object of bribing Mr. Reid. The seventii 
 charge is having made improper and unauthorised use of ]Mr. Reid's name ; 
 and that charge has been established.'' 
 
 2.5.5P- L)o you siill adhere to the o])inion that those charges were such as 
 that no English gentleman would have been dismissed upon them ? — I still 
 think that ihe main charge in ibis incpnry was the charge of Nursoo])unt having 
 received bribes. Upon that lie was acquitted by the judge, but the judge at 
 the same time gives an addition to the verdict, which I as a lauyer do not much 
 ajjprove of. 
 
 -'.",00. Mr. Cobden.] ^ ou do not think an l.nglish judge in recording an 
 Jicquittal would add that there were suspicions circumstances? — No. 
 
 2.'5()i. You do not think that any English functionary would submit to such 
 an addition on the \niYt of an English judge? — I think he ought either to have 
 acquitted him or condemned him. 
 
 ■2,']b2. Mr. Marnuhn/.'] Was not the inquiry in the nature of an inquiry by a 
 l>ublie ofH(;er reporting to his superior as to the conduct of another functionary ; 
 would not a puljlic officer enqdoyed to rejjort to the Board of Treasury or the 
 Board of Admiralty say that though tlie charges were not quite j)roved, there 
 were suspicions circumstances - — Yes, but I gatlu'r from the commencement of 
 the letter that this proceeding was in fact a special trial under the Act li/ of 
 1850. Mr. Frere is a judge by profession ; he was deputed as a special com- 
 missioner
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOUIES. 217 
 
 missioiier to iiK|uire into this case. Under that commission I appn-hni'l he Sir E Perry. 
 
 tried Nursoopunt upon those different charges. 
 
 '2.",()3. Are ynu aware whether any punishment other than dismissal was ' ^^P''' '^•Jy* 
 inflicted ujjon this native in eonsetjuenec; of tliis report r - I think it was dis- 
 cussed hy the Government, hut whether a penalty was inflicted or not I do \\u\. 
 know ; hut the proposal was to take away from him the Enaum villat^es whicli 
 he had received in eonse(pience of his long- distinguished services to tlie (loverii- 
 ment. 
 
 25114. Did the commissioner pronounce any sentence, or merely report to 
 the Government? — This is a report to the (iovernment. 
 
 2,56.5. Is a I'cport to tlie Government hy a commissioner employed hy the 
 Government to inquire, suhject to the same rules to which the decision of a 
 court is suhject i* — I suppose a commissioner conducting such an inciuir}' as 
 that is ohliged to ap])ly exactly the same judicial gravity to the inquiry, and to 
 form an ojiinion in his own mind whether the man were guilty or not. If the 
 suspicious circumstances were such as to cause the conviction in Mr. Frere's 
 mind tliat the man was guilty, it was his duty to give utterance to that conclu- 
 sion in terms ; hut if they were not sufficient to lead to the conviction in his 
 mind that l\e was guilty, I think it was extremely injurious to the individual, 
 and very ohjectionable as a judicial proceeding, to gii^e utterauce to them. 
 
 2.',(US. Do you think that any Government could he carried on if it could not 
 obtain information, by means of such an inquir}'' as that which was instituted 
 by Mr. Frere, that there was great reason to suspect that a person had been 
 guilty of miseondact like that imputed to Nursoopunt, although the evidence 
 might not amount to absolutely legal proof r — The question of legal proof was 
 not before the Commissioner ; an inquiry is made by one of the ablest servants 
 into the conduct of such and such an indivisJual ; you want to gather from the 
 ofiicer you employ what the conclusion in his mind is, whether the individual was 
 guilty or not ; to such extent it may be called a confidential inquiry ; if Mr. Frere, 
 on going into those serious charges, was of opinion that the man was guilty, then 
 of course it was his duty to give utterance to that oi)inion ; but if there were 
 mere circumstances of suspicion which led to no conclusion of that kind, it 
 was most injurious to the individual to have a High Commissioner of the 
 Government reporting such matters without sufficient ground. 
 
 2567. Sir R. H. hifflis.] You have stated that an English judge would say 
 guilty or net guilt}', and would not add " there are circumstances of suspicion." 
 Is not it a matter of daily occurrence in the criminal proceedings of England, 
 in the assize courts in every county, that the judge tells the prisoner, " You 
 have had a very merciful jury, and you are acquitted, but there are very strong- 
 suspicions in your case, and I advise j'ou, when you leave this court, to adopt 
 a better course for the future " : — I am not sure that that proceeding is 
 approved of. 
 
 25tJ8. Is not it the fact that in the administration of the English law the 
 judge is not always content to receive the verdict of guilty or not guilty, but 
 frequently adds an expression of his own opinion as to the circumstances of the 
 case ? — It does not accord with my experience of the ablest judges bifore 
 whom I have practised. 
 
 2569. In the present instance, though you stated in the first part of your 
 evidence that the case was the trial of a native judge, and though you are now 
 probably as convinced as any Member of the Committee that the party was 
 not tried or his conduct examined into as the conduct of a native judiie, do 
 you mean the Committee to understand that you retain the o])inion that it 
 was the duty of the Commissioner to abstain from any opinion of his own with 
 respect to a charge thnt was not legally proved r— I retain all the oiiinious 
 which I brought into this room ; I have not changed them ; I still think that 
 if Mr. Frere thought this man was guilty of taking this bribe, he ought to have 
 expressed it, and if tlie. language at the end of the clause in which he acquits 
 him means that, it ought to have been expressed more clearh' ; if Mr. Frere, 
 on the contrary, had not made up his mind that he had been guilty of corrup- 
 tion, it is a great injustice to the individual that he should labour under such 
 a stigma. 
 
 2570. Do you suppose that Mr. Frere's was a confidential communication 
 from an agent to a principal, or the decision of a judge in a jjublic court ? — 
 1 think it was a trial of one of our ablest servants in the Bombay Presidency. 
 
 0.10. E E You
 
 2i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE 
 
 Sir E. Peiru. You will see by the proceedings that this man had earned the encomiums of all 
 
 the employers under whom he had been employed ; he had received Enaum 
 
 7 April 1853. villages; he was an elderly man of great distinction in the native sei-vice. 
 The effect of the proceedings, I tliink, in substance, to be a trial and conviction, 
 and, therefore not, as the question suggests, a confidential proceeding taking 
 place between the Government and one of its agents. 
 
 2,j7i. Sir G. Grei/.\ Do not you draw a distinction between the trial of a 
 person on a criminal charge, subjecting him to a certain specific penalty, and 
 an inquiry which the Government finds it its duty to institute into the conduct 
 of some (lificiid person, in order to ascertain whether it is justified in con- 
 tinuing such a person in its employ after certain charges of corruption have 
 been made against him .'^Certainly ; but I think those proceedings, in effect 
 and substance, partook of the character of a trial for specific charges. 
 
 2572. Was not it the fact, in this instance, that an inquiry was directed by 
 the Government in eonsecjuence of certain charges being made, and that the 
 inquiry was conducted by a person specially appointed to conduct it, who 
 repoi't'ed the result of tliat inquiry to the (Jovernment, the Guverni) eut after- 
 wards taking measures founded upon tluit report? — Yes. The substance of 
 my obser\ation was, that the main question respecting Nursoopunt was, 
 whether he had been guilty of corruption or not, and the impression on my 
 mind, from what I had read in India, and had heard from my connexion with 
 the Government was, tliat upon that main inquiiy he had been acquitted. 
 
 ■■^.5 7.3- If ^ charge of corruption were brought under the notice of the 
 Government against a person holding an office during pleasure under that 
 Govern n.ent, and an inquiry were directed into that charge, the result being, 
 that althougii there were no legal proof to bring the offence home to the 
 individual, yet that there were very strong circumstances of suspicion, might 
 not the Government be bound to dismiss him from his office, rather than con- 
 tinue him in its employ with those circumstances of suspicion attaching to him ? 
 — Yes. I do not gather from that report that Mr. Frere had made up his 
 mind to such an extent. I know the opinion of members of the Government 
 in l!ombay was, that he was acquitted on the main charge, though Mr. Frere 
 had added a rider which might mean one of two things. 
 
 2574. Sir C. WoodA .Are you not aware that .Mr. Frere was appointed a 
 Special Commissioner, for the purpose of investigating the conduct of Nursoo- 
 punt with respect to certain charges brought against hiin by Colonel Outramr 
 — I see it was so by a letter from the Secretary of the Government to the col- 
 lector and magistrate of .Ahmedabad : " Sir, — 1 am directed to inform you that 
 the Right honourable the Governor in ( ouncil has, under the provisions of 
 Act XXXV II. of 1850, aj)pointed .Mr. W. E. Frere a Commissioner for the 
 purpose of investigating certain charges which have been preferred by Lieu- 
 tenai.t-colonel Outrani, Resident at Baroda, against your dufterdar, Nuisoo 
 Luximon." 
 
 2575. Are you aware what the result of the trial was with respect to Nursoo- 
 punt ? — Lord Falkland, in liis last minute, says, " I have come to the con- 
 clusion that, while we are full}' warranted in dismissing a man in Nursoo- 
 punt's position from the public service, it will be unjust to go further, and to 
 deprive hiiii of an Enani village conferred upon him for former distinguished 
 services." 
 
 2.")7(). Mr AJaaiu/ay.] Did his situation, in consequence of this decision of 
 the Commissioner, differ in any respect from that of a Scotch public function- 
 ary, wlio should have been tried at Edinburgh, on a charge of corruption, and as 
 to whom the jury had returned a verdict of not [n-oven? — That is a form of 
 procedure which we have not got in this country. 
 
 2577. Mr. Man(/les.] Would not such a verdict of not proven in Scotland 
 leave the party accused under grave suspicit)ns, as much as if the jury had said 
 there was susjjicion r — I dare say it would. 
 
 2.')7S. Mr. Ihniic] You have mentioned that you have had considerable inter- 
 course with the natives ; will you state to the Committee what are your opinions 
 as to their capability for office, and their state ol' morality ; how far might they 
 be trusted, if under proper encouragement, to perform duties which might 
 be entrusted to them in various situations in the country ? — I have a very high 
 opinion of the eajiacity of the natives for oflices of trust ; where\ er they have 
 been trusted, I believe they have given universal satisfaction. It is a piece of ex- 
 perience
 
 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRTTORIES. 21 y 
 
 perience everybody in India can pnt liis finiicr on, that in our domestic .service Sir £. Peny. 
 
 nothing can be more trustworthy tlian the domestics whom we employ. During L 
 
 the 1 1 years I was in India, my keys were at the disposal of ni\' servant^ ; they - April 1853. 
 were never in my own i)ossession, and 1 do not believe I ever lost an article of 
 any amount in an establislinient of 40 servants. That character begins from 
 the very lowest step in the scale. Pursuing your inquiry, you will find that 
 wherever you trust the natives, you will get honest servants. 
 
 2579. Is it your opinion that they may be raised to the higher ranks of judges 
 and to many other situntions nov.' filled bv Europeans in India r — 1 think as 
 connected with the judicial service, in point of both intellectual and moral 
 capacity there is no judicial employment to which they might not attain. In 
 the case of zillah judges, where 1 was suggesting the employ ment of English 
 barristers, 1 think it would be very advisable for the native interests, and for 
 the good government of India, that natives should l)e associated with English 
 judges in those posts. 
 
 2^)80. Have you considered wliat proportion of remuneration might be 
 requisite to enable them to support their relative position there, and secure 
 their fidelity and attention to their diities ? — I think the great instrument you 
 have in your hands for securing good conduct in your native officials, is the 
 same which you have applied to the English officials in India ; by all accounts 
 you have a very trustworthy English service throughout the countr\- ; you have 
 obtained it b)' giving them very large remuneration ; by aj)plying the same 
 principle to the native employes you would secure exactly the same kind of 
 service, in my opinion. 
 
 2581. You do nut entertain the opinion which has been expi'essed b}' some 
 of the witnesses before the Committee, that the natives cannot, under any cir- 
 emnstances, be trusted to fill high and responsible situations r — As I said before, 
 I think there are no situations to which you could not admit the natives, except 
 such as are connected with our poliiical supremac)'. 
 
 2582. In your intercourse with the natives at Bombaj^, have you found them 
 trustworthy and honourable in their commercial transactions, and in other 
 public situations where you have met with them? — Their commercial integrity 
 has always been very famous; it is quite remarkable ,vhat a principle of mer- 
 cantile honour has prevailed among them, such as to give security to their paper 
 from one end (i India to the other ; the sanctity of mercantile books was such 
 that in the native courts of justice, the production of the books was quite 
 conclusive as to the Acracity of any transaction in dispute. 
 
 2583. Do you include all classes of natives in that opinion ? — When we speak 
 of natives, the Hindoos are always the main persons referred to ; the Parsees, 
 who are engaged in commerce, come quite within the same category ; I have 
 no doubt the Borahs, a small class, are cqvially trustworthy in thrir commercial 
 aflFairs. 
 
 2584. Are the Committee to understand that in your opinion much assistance 
 may be obtained fro :: the natives in every part of India, under a proper system 
 of encouragement and of education, and that the administration of justice may 
 be thereby economized and facihtated? — The main part of the administration 
 in India is now under the natives. It has been the boast of the IJrahmins that 
 whatever set of conquerors come, tliey pull the strings of government in point 
 of fact ; that is now going on, and it must be so, and it ouglit to be so In the 
 judicial system, 98 per cent, of the causes for trial are tried before native 
 judges ; and the evidence is unanimous, 1 believe, that their decisions are logical, 
 well composed, and in every way extremely good, though they have not had 
 the advantages which might be supplied of a good early legal education. 
 
 2585. "What view do you take of the general practice of punchayets ; had 
 yon any opportunity of judging how far their decisions have been in accordance 
 with the evidence, and just .^ — 1 believe where the punchayets have been in use 
 they have given great satisfaction to the native community They sprang up 
 under the native governments, under which good judicial establishments were 
 not provided. Punchayets were the expedients adopted by the natives then:- 
 selves, lor rendering justice to one another. The members of the punchayet 
 were not remunerated ; they v.ere chosen from the elders of the commiuiity, 
 rrd I believe, from all the evidence I have heard on the subject, their decisions 
 have been generally found conlormable to the merits of the case. 
 
 2580. Could yovi institute a comparison between the trustworthiness and 
 0.10. E E 2 morality
 
 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sn- E. Perry. morality of our own countryiuen ami tlie natives of India, in civil sitiia- 
 
 tions, where you have seen them together ? — The English have a great advantage 
 
 7 April 1853. over the natives in one main branch of morals, namely, in their adherence to 
 veracity ; the truthlulness of the English, I beheve, is exhibited by them to a 
 greater extent than by any nation in the world ; but 1 also believe it is very 
 much due to two considerations, first, the free govcrninent under which we all 
 live, which has enabU d every man to speak his opinions without tear ; and, 
 secondlv, to something in organization. The Anglo-Saxon race are not quite 
 so imaginative as some other races of mankind. 
 
 2,vS7. Is not the want of trustworthiness and veracit}-, one of the great 
 grounds of com])laint, as the reason why the natives are not trusted r — Yes. 
 
 2-,S'8. Does not that operate against the oi)inion which you have now given ? 
 — The natives have not had the advantages w hich 1 have alluded to ; they have 
 not had a free government; their contact with the Government has been under 
 circumstances milaveAiiable lor leading to a habit of truth. The government 
 of the Hindoo h;is been a government through the tax collector ; it has been 
 the object ol the Hindoo to disguise as much as possible the true facts of the 
 case. He was dealing with one whom he considered to be an opponent, and 
 dealing as tlie weaker party, and therefore thought himself justified in using 
 something like fraud and deceit, as the weaker party will generally do. 
 
 2'f'Si.). lOither as officials in the courts of law or as collectors, do you think, 
 with proper salaries and encouragement, they may be employed to a greater 
 extent than they now are ? — Undoubtedly ; you will find that wherever you 
 have had good native governments, you have had admirable emi)loyes ; you 
 have had as good jutlges as we can refer to ; you have had financiers and 
 administrators esteemed as men of honour and integrity by their contemporaries. 
 
 251)0. You were asked a question respecting the use of the English language ; 
 is it your opinion that the English language should be introduced into the 
 administration of the courts in every part of India : — The opinion I gave was, 
 that, as the language of controversy and business, it should exist in all the 
 superior courts : that is to say, the courts at the Presidencies and the courts 
 at the chief zillah stations ; I would also introduce it as the language of record 
 in every court in the emijire : that is to say, I would make it a sine qua iion for 
 a native judge appointed to the oliice to be conversant with tlie EngUsh lan- 
 guage, and 1 would impose upon him the duty of recording with his own hand 
 the evidence taken at the trial, as the judges in this country do; that should 
 be done in the English language, as is done by tlie Supreme Court judges 
 now ; the record would be greatly siinjilified ; the suitor would be saved a great 
 expense, and the Oourt of Appeal would ha^•e a full opportunity of judging of 
 the accuracy of the judgment. 
 
 2591. Do you think there would be the means in a few years of providing 
 pro])er persons to fill many of those important situations ? — The means are at 
 hand now in the Hombay Presidency for adopting the latter suggestion, that of 
 making the admission to the native judgeships depend upon a knowledge of 
 the English language. 
 
 2.5()2. You consider tliat the facihties which would be given by the insti- 
 tution of colleges to legal education are n.ost important to the success of any 
 such measure: — I think it is extremely desirable to assist by such means the 
 talents of the natives. 
 
 2.-,93. Mr. Macanhiy.'] Do you believe that any great number of the ablest 
 sudder aniins. and other native functionaries who now administer justice through 
 the country, know ICnglish / — I dare say not ; I think very few of the principal 
 sudder amins do. 
 
 2.-,94. You would not ])r(ipose to discard them ? — No ; the change is entirely 
 prospective. 
 
 259,5. Mr. Elliot.] You spoke, in a former answer, of " boy judges ;" it 
 apjiears also that you gave this answer in another place : " In the Bombay 
 Presidency, after men are allocated to the judicial service from a very early 
 period, they go into office at the age of 23 or 24 as judges, but they sit as 
 judges of ai)peal only; they sit in judgment over the native judges; you will 
 hear luin.pean judges of that age overruling the decisions of those natives, their 
 superiors in age and legal attainments, with great *«//// froid and confidence." 
 Is there not some mistake in that answer? — Not the shghtest ; 1 heard, as I 
 supposed, this answer of mine referred to in the examination of a former 
 
 witness,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 221 
 
 witness, and an impression apjioarcd to prevail that I liad made a mistake in c:ir p p^,,, 
 
 the evidenee which I liave given elsewhere. I made no mistake in the . 
 
 evidence which I tlien gave, according to my opinion ; wlicn I nsed the 7 Ai.rll 18:53. 
 expression as to sncli young men sitting as judges, I referred, no doid)t, to th(! 
 assistant judge; Init the assistant judge is as mucli a judge as an assistant 
 surgeon is a surgeon ; it is only to a difFcrence in point of rank and remuner- 
 ation, but not in function or (iualiti(;ation, tliat the name applies ; the assistant 
 judge in the Presidency of Bombay sits as a judge of appeal ; I have sat by his 
 side myself; I should not have used such strong language unless I spoke from 
 personal experience ; I have sat by the side of such young men, sitting in 
 ai)peal from the decisions of moonsiffs and sudder amins, experienced men of, 
 perhaps, double their own age. I think the Committee will find upon the 
 R(>tvn'ns which are already before them, that tlie principal functions of the 
 assistant judge are those of hearing and deciding in appeal ; therefore the case 
 I describe exists in fact, that the assistant judges in Boml^ay, young men of 
 23 or 24 are sitting as judges of appeal on the decisions of men more able and 
 experienced than themselves. 
 
 '2:',f)6. Will you refer to the hst of the assistant judges, and state if there are 
 more than one or two in the whole list of the age which you have mentioned ? — 
 I see two in the list who were appointed to India in 1848, acting as assistant 
 judges ; what I desire to say in answer to the question is, that I adhere to every 
 word of the statement which I made before the Committee of the House of 
 Lords. I did not then use the word assistant judge, nor should I do so with an 
 acciu'ate choice of language, because I was referring to the judicial functions 
 which the individual exercised, and not to the station he held in the grade of 
 judicial officers. 
 
 ■i')()7. Are you aware that in Bengal there are no assistant judges? — Yes, 
 I am well aware of that ; they do not attain to the office there till they have 
 served, probably, for 20 years in different departments. 
 
 2.598. Mr. Cobden.l, You stated that the Supreme Courts, presided over by 
 legall}^ educated professional men, gave great satisfaction ; are the}' as extensive 
 in their jurisdiction, and as widely useful as they might be, in your opinion ? — 
 No ; I have already mentioned one branch of usefulness which has been cut off 
 from tliem of late years, namely, that of exercising sununary jurisdiction in small 
 causes, according to the principles coming into vogue day after day ; that has 
 been cut off from them within a very few years. I think the same kind of 
 summary jurisdiction which they did exercise beneficially might be carried out 
 to a great extent, and not only in civil causes but in criminal causes. There is 
 a disposition in this country, in minor criminal cases, to dispense with the 
 services of a jury and grand jury, and to allow a power of summary punishment 
 to he placed in the hands of a judge. I think, in the Presidencies, such sum- 
 mary power might be entrusted to elderly men, who fill the office of Queen's 
 judges in India, and, therefore, that other useful functions might be attributed 
 to them. 
 
 2599. Are not some questions, such as those affecting the revenue, withdrawn 
 from the jurisdiction of tliat court? — Yes ; there also, no doubt, a tribunal is 
 required such as exists in this country, but does not now exist in the Presiden- 
 cies, for correcting-, I will not say misconduct, but that kind of conduct on the 
 part of officials which is only well punished by a trial of that .kind. When the 
 Supreme Courts were estabfished the charter of justice was couched so vaguely 
 that it gave opportunity to the judges, who looked merely to the letter of the 
 law, and did not take statesmanlike views of the state of India, to extend the 
 jurisdiction to a very inconvenient degree. The Committee, of course, are aware 
 of the difficulties which arose in the case of Ciiief Justice Iinpey and Mr. Justice 
 Hyde, and so on. The consequence was that Acts of Parliament were intro- 
 duced, excluding from the Supreme Court the jurisdiction of revenue cases which 
 take place in the interior; the whole of the English officials in India having 
 been subjected to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, as a mode of keeping 
 down official misconduct; but if the Supreme Court were to interfere with the 
 collection of the revenue, or any little trespasses which might occur, of course 
 it would make the functions of government in the East wholly impossible, and, 
 therefore, the statute excluded from the jurisdiction of the court all cases of 
 revenue collection in which the letter of the law had bi^en infringed. On 
 cipphing those statutes, as they have been applied subsequently to the Presi- 
 
 0.10. ' E E 3 dencies
 
 ::22 
 
 MINUIES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. dencies of Bombay and Calcutta, which arc, in point of fact, presidencies equal 
 
 in wealth and station to the large towns in iMigland, Liverpool, and so on, the 
 
 7 Apiil i86j. same law has l)een adopted, the onseiiuence of which is, that if any case occurs 
 where an inhabitant lias to complain of an unlawful act of a collector in his 
 collection of the revenue, there is no etlicieut tribunal which I can point out by 
 which redress could be obtained. 
 
 2i)uo. You suggest an amalgamation of the Uueen's Courts and the Com- 
 pany's Courts; are there any obstacles to such an amalgamation being carried 
 out .' -I do not see any obstacle. I think in all those cases of legal, and 
 judicial, and administrative reform, the great thing needed is a vigorous 
 government at the head of affairs. In all legal reforms there are a great 
 man\- |>oints that suggest themselves for controversy. While discussions go 
 on in writing so many plausible schemes are put forward, that it is difficult 
 for any one to form a conclusion, and therefore it is the business of statesmen 
 to choose between them and decide upon something being done. That is what 
 I think is chiefly wanted in India to urge forward those kind of reforms. 
 
 2(H) 1. You mean that there is a divided authority in the Government of 
 India : — Yes, there is very little power, which 1 i\gret, in the hands of the 
 local Governments ; and subjects which they think dt-serving of legislation 
 have to be referred elsewhere, and get into tlie iiands of persons who do not 
 know nearly so much about the matter as themselves. I have seen that very 
 strongl} in operalion in Bombay. 
 
 2602. No doubt you have frequently made the subject one of consideration 
 and of discussion among your friends ; have you anj suggestion to make as to 
 what lei'orms or alterations jou woulil think desirable in the administration of 
 the affairs of India .'--As an administrator myself in the two great depart- 
 ments o'i law reform and education, the conclusion I have drawn as to tliose 
 two departments I believe would apply to the whole question ; that to make 
 India progress in the manner in which we are desirous to see it jn-ogressing, 
 the administration of India should be almost entirely vested in the local 
 Governuients in the country, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, and Agra respectively. 
 You should select the best men 3 ou can for your governors and councillors, 
 and leave to them the business of local legislation ; but the general body who 
 supervise the whole system, and whicli is as near to all the presidencies almost 
 as one presidency is to another, should be in England, and should be a body 
 composed of the ablest men you can find ; a sinall body of well-selected men 
 from whom, as one of the witnesses in the service of the Company said, you 
 should withdraw every motive whatever that can at all inipede good govern- 
 ment in India. That is a principle which he lays down as one to be observed 
 in framing the Home Government to which 1 entirely subscribe. I think that 
 the problem may be solved by having a Minister for India, a Secretary for 
 India, with an able Council, composed of a few men conversant with India, by 
 whom the functions now exercisi d by the doul)le authority should be per- 
 formed. By those men the controlling pouer, which in point of fact is all 
 that can well ])e exercised in this countr)-, and all, as far as 1 gather from 
 the witJie.-ses from the India House that is exercised, should be put forth. 
 To such men, if wvW selected, and few in number, because it is very dif- 
 ficult to find competent men for such a post, all large schemes capable of 
 being ajjplied to India, all codes, and all matters of general policy, nught 
 be entrusted. So long as you contiime to refer to India those general 
 schemes, you have not the means of collecting together a legislature or 
 a legislative body wlu) can be adequate to such functions. The very 
 same reasons which operate to prevent civil servants from being good 
 judges equally operate to prevent their being good legislators. They are 
 adnnrable administrator.^^, men capable of action and ready to act upon their 
 own responsibility, l)Ut they have not the means of making themselves con- 
 versant with that large bod}' of information whi(di is reqtnred in a legislator. 
 Moreover, India is not at all tit f )r any such legislation at their hand?. The 
 circumstances of India are so different in oni' part of the country from what 
 they are in another, that a law which suits one presidency is wholly inappli- 
 cable to the others, i herefore any such local legislature as has been suggested 
 would fail from those different causes which i allude to ; first of all, the in- 
 ability to find men with ihe qualities of legislators, and secondly, frjiii the state 
 of the country being such as not to require any general legislation. On the 
 
 very
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEKRITORIES. 223 
 
 very few questions upon which general legislation is recjuired, a small body Sir P.. Peny. 
 
 coni))Osed of the ablest Indian officials whom you can find, with two or tlirec ■ 
 
 EniiUsh statesmen, would be tlie most competent body whicli could l)e formed, 7 '^P""'l i<)53 
 and to such a body all general measures of administration and law reform eouhl 
 be referred, and by them decided on, and so an imjietus be given to the local 
 governments in different parts of India. But the mainspring upon which you 
 must depend for the improvement of India generally, is to tiive an independent 
 power, subji'ct, of course, to superior control, to the different local legislatures 
 througli the country. The evil which 1 have found greatly eomj)l;iincd of in 
 going about India is, that they are placed under a government which knows 
 nothing about their wants. In the North- Western Provinces tlie Committee 
 will find, from the witnesses in the service, a general complaint exists as to 
 what emanates from Bengal ; in the same manner at Madras and Bombay 
 the complaint is that local subjects go up for consideration before the 
 Supreme Government, as it is called, and are disposed of on very inadequate 
 grounds ; and if the Committee look to the mode in which those councils 
 are formed, it must be necessarily so. For thougii the Council in Bengal 
 is, generally speaking, a more able council than exists in the smaller pre- 
 sidencies, because it is selected from a much larger class, it is not neces- 
 sarily the case. It often occurs in practice that the minor councils contain 
 more eminent men than the supreme councils, but in all cases this operates, 
 that the Supreme Council is not equal in special and local knowledge to 
 the minor Councils, on whom the business of local legislation ought to de- 
 pend. For this opinion of mine, which I would not venture to put forward 
 unless there were experience to supjjoi't it, you have a very large experience to 
 refer to. Previous to the last charter the business of local legislation was very 
 much left to the minor presidencies, but in the last charter a much greater 
 control was given to the Supreme Government, and the local presidencies have 
 been left with very inadequate powers. I am satisfied, that in my own time, if 
 the Local Government of Bombay had had the power of legislation within its 
 own limits, on those two subjects with which I have been much concerned, law 
 reform and education, we should have made much greater progress, from the 
 unanimity of good feeling existing between the courts of justice, the Supreme 
 Court, and the Uovernment, than has been obtained under the present system 
 by which the government is divided, and authorities ignorant of local matters 
 have had to dispose of the case under consi<leration. 
 
 2603. You have spoken very highly of the talents and virtues of the natives 
 for administrative employments, would you consider them eligible in any case 
 as legislators ? — I have already said that I do not think that there is much 
 material for legislators anywhere in India. The European official learns his 
 experience in the jungles, and in his intercourse with mankind ; he is educated 
 by the circumstances in which he is placed, and he forms very admirable 
 opinions very often, upon nearly every subject of Government, but he is without 
 libraries, he is without the means of reference to books, or any means of con- 
 tact with superior minds ; he does not therefore know what has been previously 
 done upon the subject engaging his attention, 'i'herefore when he sits down to 
 legislate, as he often does, because the system of government requires every 
 official to suggest improvements, and to suggest matters from time to time to 
 bis government, he sends up large schemes to the government, which may 
 frequently have been tried and failed elsewhere without his knowledge, in con- 
 sequence of liis not having had the benefit of an acquaintance with the experi- 
 ence of preceding times ; therefore he is not fitted by his previous training to 
 undertake the business of legislation ; and if he is not so it is natural to suppose 
 that a native of India, who has not taken up the business of government at all, 
 but has been merely looking after his own engagements, must bt at least equally 
 unfit, and I think he is a great deal more unfit, for the business of legislation, to 
 which the question refers. 
 
 2604. Mr. FJUce.] You propose that this legislation should be left in the 
 hands of a council here, comjiosed of eminent persons, who have gone through 
 Jong periods of service in India. If thofe are the fit i)ersons to legislate for 
 India, must not they have obtained their knowledge of the world, and the 
 other information necessary to enable them to become legislators, in India ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2605. Are not such men as Lord Metcalfe, Sir George Clerk, and many other 
 0.10. E E 4 persons
 
 224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Si. E. Perri). persons who have served in India, equally capable of becoming legislators for 
 
 that country as any men \Yhom you can find in this country ? — The observa- 
 
 7 April 1853. tioiis 1 have made", without alliuling to individuals, 1 think apply generally. 
 I think functionarii's in India are precluded from making good legislators. The 
 object of such a council as I propose would be to instruct tlie Minister of State, 
 whose mind has been directed to legislation and statesmanship during' his 
 whole manliood, to furnish him with the local knowledge and the traditionary 
 information which functionaries of that character would possess. 
 
 2O06. You would prefer that the Minister of State, appointed here periodi- 
 calh- to control the government of India, should legislate for that country, rather 
 than persons who have passed through long periods of service in India, and 
 have acquired great experience there?- I rather limited my opinion by what 
 have said as to llie necessity for very little legislation for India; administrative 
 measures are what 1 think are chiefly wanted in that country, and the occa- 
 sions on which any considerable legislation should be undertaken, I think, are 
 very rare ; the (H)untry is not ripe for any general legislation. 
 
 2607. Do not you" think that the information to be obtained in India by 
 persons actually resident there, and in the service of the government, is more 
 likely to enable them to determine wisely upon the expediency of adminis- 
 trative measures than the experience of any minister appointed by the Crowa 
 in this country to control the att'airs of India? — I have stated already that 
 local legislation, the Rrgulations as they used to be called, should be com- 
 mitted chiefly to the local authorities in India ; and that the opinions of some 
 persons who are aiming at centralization, and at the appointment of a large 
 legislative council in India, are not warranted by experience. I do not 
 think that the occasions would be very frequent on which such a home council 
 as I have suggested would have to exercise their power of legislation. 
 
 2(JoS. Have we had any experience to justify us in supposing that better 
 means of legislating for India can be obtained in this country than in India 
 itself? — I think the experience of the last 20 years does not show us that the 
 means of legislating for India exist there. 
 
 2609. May not improvements be made upon those means which were 
 adopted 20 years ago, for the purpose of legislation in India? — I have heard 
 imjirovcments suggested by means of enlarging the Legislative Council in India, 
 by adding to it diiferent functionaries, and so on ; but upon a full considera- 
 tion of those proi)osals, it does not aj)pear to me probable that any great im- 
 provement will be intmdueed ; on the contrary, the evil which I have been 
 describing, for example, the objection to other parts of India being legislated 
 for by Bengalese, would be increased. If the Legislative Council were situ- 
 ated "in Bengal, it would become more a Bengal government than it is at 
 present. That is an observation which I hear in the mouths of the ablest men 
 in India. 
 
 j6io. Mr. T'. .S'//h7/(.] Your proposal with respt'ct to the home authorities 
 would involve the combined autliority of a Minister of the Crown, assisted by a 
 council, formed of persons experienced in Indian affairs? — Yes. 
 
 2()ii. Mr. MdiujIvK.'] You have recommended that barristers should be 
 appointed zillah judges ; do you mean that they should go out from this i-ountry 
 and take their seats upon the Bench in the zillah without any local training of 
 any sort ?— ^'es. 
 
 2(ii2. Are vou not aware that Sir Thomas Monro and other authorities of 
 almost equal weight have been of o])inion that no man was tit for the Bench in 
 India without ])revious training in the Revenue Department, and otiier means 
 of acquiring a knowledge of the |)e()ple? — 1 have already given my evidence 
 upon that point, admitting to the fullest extent the great value of the local 
 knowledge to l)e ol)taincd in the Revenue Department ; but I have ])ointed out 
 that a still more inqjortant knowledge is required from the judge, namely a 
 kuou ledge of mankind, and a knowledge of jurisprudence ; you must sacrifice 
 either one or the otlu-r. If you appoint a young man of three and four and 
 twenty he possesses tieither one kind of knowledge nor the other ; but he gets 
 a local knowledge in tiuu^ by exixrimenting upon tlie causes of tlu^ jjoor. 
 The advantages which I anticipate from appointing experienced barristers 
 of character and reputation to the judicial office would l)e, that you would 
 supply at all events one of those great rc(juisites, and the other would follow 
 in course of time. 1 would allude to an experiment which is in actual opera- 
 tion.
 
 SELECT CO.MMiTTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 22^ 
 
 tion. Those Queen's judi^es who go out wholh' iji^norant of the country, and of sj, /■. l\ir^, 
 
 the native eustoms, and even ignorant of the language, yet perform the duties 
 
 of the judicial office to the satisfaction of the native coninuinity, who of course 7 ''!"■•! '^j^ 
 are the best judges whether their functions are i)erfornied well or not. I do 
 not say that there are no evils in such a course. The evils of course are grept. 
 The jiulge should be conversant, if possible, with every subject that comes 
 before him. 
 
 2()i3. Mr. Macauhty.'] Is not the salary of one of the judges of the Queen's 
 courts double the salary of a /illah judjic ? — The salary of a puisne judge at 
 Bombay is .'),000 /. a year; the salary of a zillah judge is about 3,000 /. a 
 year. 
 
 2614. And the Bombay puisne judge obtains a retiring pension after 10' 
 3'ears' service, does not he r — Yes. 
 
 Jtii,-,. Of what amount? — The puisne judge receives 1,200/. a year after 
 10 years' servi(;e. 
 
 •jt)i{i. Do 30U think that a salary of 3,000 I. a year without the pros])ect of 
 a retiring pension would enable you to obtain barristers of age and established 
 reputation for tliose situations-' — I have made inquiries on this subject since 
 I have been in England, among my friends at the bar, and 1 find the general 
 opinion to be, that a salary of 3,000 I. a year would tempt most able men to 
 go out. # 
 
 2617. Without tlie prospect of a retiring pension ? — If they go out to India 
 I apprehend they would be put very much in the same position as the Com- 
 pany's zillah judges. Tlie zillah judge has not only his pi-esent position of 
 3,000 /. a year, but the pros])ect of being raised to the Supreme Court of the 
 Company, the Sudder Adawlut, where he may get 6,000/. a year. That 
 reward would be equally open I apprehend to a barrister who was appointed a 
 judge. He also receives a gratuity from the Company at the end of his service 
 of 500 /. a year, and he pays by deductions from his salary for another ."jOO /. a 
 year. I apfirehend if an English l^arrister went out in the wav I propose, the 
 same system would be applied to him, and a fund would be provided from his 
 salary by which such a retiring pension might be secured. 
 
 ■20 1 5. Has not a zillah judge now to wait for his pension for 2.j years ? — 
 Yes ; but if you were to send out barristers to those offices in the way I men- 
 tion, the class of persons to whom you would resort would be those to whom 
 you now give the judgeships of county courts, only you would send out such 
 men at a much earlier ])eriod of life. 
 
 2^19. Do not you think that if you were to send out barristers of 26 or 27, 
 barristers who have scarcely had a brief, you would lose tiiose advantages of 
 age and experience, and established reputation, and general knowledge of the 
 world, which, as you have said, are the advantages which you desire to secure r 
 — In every consideration of this subject you have man)- difficulties to deal with. 
 It is only a choice of evils which you have before you, when you are attemj)ting 
 to govern a countrr like India by foreign officials. No doubt it would be far 
 better to send out as zillah judges men of standing and establi.shed reputation ; 
 but, of course, 3 our finances will not allow of tliat. Tlie mode now in opera- 
 tion is to train the Company's judges by that gradation of office which has 
 been described. Experience proves that that has failed, and by waj^ of a 
 remedy I would suggest that you should iiave men of five or six years' i)ro- 
 fessional training in the courts of this country, wlio, I believe, would make 
 a better set of functionaries than those who are now employed ; and I see no 
 difficulty either in the amount of the salary, or the remoteness of the pension, 
 to prevent your em])loying such men. 
 
 2620. Do you believe there is any county court judge in England uiuler 30 
 years of age ? — I have been a\v;vy from this country for 12 years, and I do not 
 know their ages. 
 
 2G2;. Do not you believe that tiie bulk of the county court judges are of 
 a much greater age than 30 years r — I believe the county court judges are not 
 quite such good men as they will be hereafter. I believe the fault to be im- 
 puted to them is, that they are generally too old. 
 
 2622. If you required the Covernnient to take their choice from young 
 barristers of seven or eight and twentv, of whose qualitications it is next to 
 impossible that there can have been much proof, is it not probable the thing 
 would be converted into a mere political job ? — I think a'ou might prevent that 
 
 0.10. Ef by
 
 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE lAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. I'trty. by giving the ap]iointiiient to the sante officers who now ap})oiut the revising 
 barristers, at least they used to appoint tliem in my time ; namely, the judges 
 
 7 April 1853. Qj^ circuit ; they have ample means of testing, not only the general attainments 
 of the gentlemen who go the circuit wit!' them, but their moral character, it 
 never, I believe, has been imputed as a fault, that giving that portion of 
 patronage to the judges of the country has operated ill in jjractice. But there 
 is another field from which to obtain candidates !br zil'iah judgeships, namely 
 the local bars at the Presidencies. If barristers were selected from that forum, 
 a good many of the objections which have been started as to the ignorance of 
 the native customs and usages would disappear ; because men after so many 
 vears residence in the country, and especially with the hojje of employment, 
 would make it their business to study the languages of the country, and to make 
 themselves conversant with those native habits and manners which have been 
 so much spoken of. 
 
 2623. As it would be impossible that English judges should name the barris- 
 ters of the Supreme Court of Calcutta or Madras to fill those situations, to 
 whom would you leave those nominations r — To the local governments. 
 
 2624. Is it to the Queen's Governmtnt liere, or to the local government, or 
 to the judges on circuit, that you v.ould give this patronage ; or in what pro- 
 portions would you divide it among the three ? — In Bombay there are only 
 eight zillah judges to be appointed ; the native judges having given satisfac- 
 tion, as I have described, in their judicial oIHce, I suppose would come in for a 
 .share of those appointments. I suppose, if the native judges perform their 
 duties so well as they are described to do by persons competent to form an 
 opinion, it would be impossible to withhold from them, in the course of time, 
 some of those superior offices. I apprehend, therefore, that the zillah judge- 
 ships wcmld be open to them among others ; that would diminish the number 
 
 , of appointments to oe filled up from this country, say, to five. The whole 
 
 number of zillah judgeships in the Bombay Presidency is only eight. Whether 
 the five aj^pointments are made by the Crown, or by the Secretary for India, or 
 by the judges on circuit, I think is very immaterial, for on the whole 1 think 
 you would get an efficient body of men, because you v,ould have the means of 
 calling forth all the best faculties of the individuals for exertion on the bench ; 
 they would h.ave a good salary, and also the hope of promotion held out to 
 them if they conducted themselves well ; there would be a gradation to the 
 ■Supreme Court of the Presidency, with a larger pay ; and you would obtain 
 the veiT great advantage of placing ail those men under the most efficient 
 check you can apph' to such a body, namely, the opinions of the profession in 
 Westminster Fiall, which I believe to be the most efficient security you have 
 for good conduct on the bench. All the judgments and proceedings would be 
 in English ; all appeals would be to the Supreme Court at the Presidency ; 
 they would come home to this country ; and every man of education in the 
 realm would be able to test whether the judicial conduct of those individuals 
 was good or not. 
 
 2625. Sir G. Gre9/.] You have stated that there are eight zillah judges in 
 Bombay ; do you know what the number is throughout India ? — In Bengal, 
 I see by the Blue Book, there are 32 ; in the North Western Provinces, 21 ; in 
 Madras, 20 ; and in Bombay, eight; that makes 81. 
 
 2626. Your re(;omnu'ndation does not apply sim|)ly to the Presidency of 
 Bombay, but to the whole of India? — Yes. I have not included in this view the 
 new countries like Scinde, the Punjaub, and others. For a long time, I suppose, 
 they must be conducted on a different system more in accordance with the native 
 system. 
 
 2627. As they come within the same system the number of zillah judges to 
 be ap])ointed would of course be incn-ased? — Of course. 
 
 2()2S. Mr. iVaaiului/.j iJo you conceive, from your knowledge of the pro- 
 fession, that any person who would accept a county court judgeship would be 
 willing to go out to India r — I tliink I should myself, at 25 or 26 years of age. 
 
 2(12;). Mr. V. Smith.] Do you happen to know the amount of salary which is 
 given to the judges sent to the West India colonies ? — I know, taking the salaries 
 paid in Ceylon, they are very inferior to 3,000 I. a year. 
 
 2630. Mr. Manyles.] You spoke of a knowledge of mankind as being still more 
 essential than a knowledge of the law to the formation of an efficient judge. Was 
 it (juite fair then to compare our mature barristers, as you did, with an assistant 
 
 judge.
 
 SELFXT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEIIRITORIES. 227 
 
 judge, of whom you said before tliere were only about six or eight in the whole Sir E.Perry. 
 
 Bombay Presidency, and none at Bengal ; would not the comparison have been 
 
 fairer between a uialuve l)arrister and a mature judge ? — Ves, I had that in my 7 April 1853. 
 mind when I gave that answer. 1 had in my mind the judges of Bengal, who 
 are experienced men, with a knowledge of the native habits and customs and 
 languages. ! compared those in my mind with an English judge who had been 
 trained in the English courts, and had oljtained a knowledge of the principles 
 of jurisprudence, and an experience of mankind at the same time. 
 
 26 ",\. ^Vould nut a full judge be likely to have a better kno-.vledge of man- 
 kind, and especially of that particular i'a(!e of mankind with whom he had to 
 deal, than a barrister of six or seven and twenty ': — Yes, a knowledge of man- 
 kind, but not a knowledge of jurisprudence, which is also important. 
 
 •2<y^-2. You spoke of a knowledge of mankind as being still more essential 
 than a knowledge of jurisprudence?-- 1 said it was more essential than a know- 
 ledge of the native habits and manners ; I said there was a still more essential 
 knowledge than a knowledge of the native habits and manners, namely, a 
 knowledge of mankintl, and a knowledge of jurisprudence. 
 
 ij(>33. Do you think you were quite coi'rect in stating that the judges 
 thrcuighout the Bombay Presidency are not acquainted with the vernacular 
 language of the people, and cannot read papei's in that language? — I am satis- 
 fied that it is the case to the extent to which I have stated it. 
 
 2(134. Have you any know'ledge which would enable you to speak of the 
 judges of the North-western Provinces? — The North-western Provinces have 
 one great advantage over Bombay, namely, they have only one language which is 
 vernacular, Hindi or Hindostanee as spoken by the Musselmans ; that language 
 prevails over a country comprising very many millions of mankind. Then in 
 Bengal, you have a language also which is vernacular, the Bengalee, which 
 prevails among 36,000,000 people; but in Southern India and in Bombay, you 
 have three or four languages vernacular, with none of which, as a general rule, 
 are the judicial functionaries conversant. I dare say the almanack would enable 
 me to point out that in the Sudder Adawlut the judges are not acquainted with 
 Guzerattee or Mahratta in such a manner as to be able to sum up to a jury 
 in it. 
 
 2635. Are you sufficiently acquainted with Bengal and the North-western 
 Provinces, to say W'hether the judges can speak with sufficient fluency to be able 
 to conduct examinations, and sum up evidence, or read papers, in the native 
 languages ? — I dare sa}' in the north-west they are sufficiently acquainted with 
 Hindostanee to be able to conduct inquiries extremely well ; as to writings, I do 
 not know. The native writing, as the Honourable Member is well aware, is very 
 defective ; their system of leaving out the vowels is so perplexing that I haA^e 
 even seen able Brahmins puzzkd with documents ; but in the Bombay Presi- 
 dency, where Mahratta and Guzerattee are used, there are very few European 
 officers who can read documents, 
 
 2636. Are you aware that young men in Bengal, before they can succeed to 
 very inferior posts, are tried in reading those very documents of which you 
 speak as being read with so nmch difficulty? — Yes, that is the case. 
 
 2637. And they cannot pass the examination unless they are capable of 
 reading a paper which they have nevei- seen before, written in this difficult 
 running hand of which you speak ? — Yes ; but I have seen in the courts of 
 justice wi-itten documents conie daily before the court which have puzzled even 
 the interpreters of the court to read, the language is so defective, with regard 
 particularly to ihe Marwaddys ; their documents are not legible by any one 
 member of the service ; I found that opinion upon the fact, that I see natives 
 themselves puzzled to read them. Even in the north-west, where only one 
 language prevails, those gentlemen are not able to read such documents coming 
 before them. 
 
 2638. Those documents are not written in the vernacular language of the 
 country, are they .^ — They are written in the vernacular language of the 
 Marwaddvs. 
 
 2639. That is a commercial style of writing, is not it? — No; I speak of 
 documents written in the language of those people. 
 
 2(i40. You think many of our judges could not read that language ? — I 
 think very few could. 
 
 2641. You spoke of there being no efficient tribunal to which natives could 
 0.10. F F 2 appeal
 
 •22S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 K'r E. Perry. appeal against revenue officers ; is not it the case that the laws of every Presi- 
 
 dency of India put the Government upon a perfect footing; of equality in regard 
 
 J April iSoj. to its subjects in all cases between it and them .' — There is an ample mode of 
 appealing against any decision of a revenue officer in case of his making too 
 large an assessment, l)ut I do not see any mode of getting redress, as redress is 
 obtained in this country, against any act of misconduct in the exaction of revenue 
 by a revenue officer. 
 
 2642. Is not the Govei'nment liable to be prosecuted through its officers in 
 every imaginable case r — In my evidence on this point I was describing what 
 takes place in the Presidency of Bombay, not in the Mofussil. In the Presi- 
 dency of Bombay, I see no mode of getting redress against any misconduct in 
 the exaction of the revenue by a revenue officer. 
 
 26421- Cannot the oHicer be prosecuted for damages ? — I do not know before 
 what court. They attempted to bring such a case befoi'e the Supreme Court. 
 1 thought the iurisdiction existed in the Supreme Court, and I pointed out the 
 reasons why : but an appeal was made to this country, and the Privy Council 
 decided that the Supreme Court had no jurisdiction ; but they added that they 
 hoped there was some other tribunal in whicli redress could be obtained : but 
 I do not myself know of any other. 
 
 2(144. ^ ou drew an unfavourable comparison between the Company's juris- 
 diction and the state of things in this country ; are you not aware that there 
 are verv large classes of revenue cases in this country in which the subject can 
 obtain no redress ; for example, take the case of a seizure of goods alleged by 
 the Customs to be smuggled, which turn out to be goods upon which the party 
 has actually paid the duty, he can get back the goods, but he can get neither 
 costs nor damages from the Crown ? — That is because the lavv' of this country 
 is so. 
 
 2645. Is not the law of the Company's territory just the reverse ? — What 
 appears to me to be required is, that the law should give the Company whatever 
 power they require to collect the revenue, but that if that law is transgressed 
 there should be some means of getting redress ; that is the case in this country, 
 and I tliiuk it should be the case in India also. 
 
 2646. Is not it the fact that in England a subject can get no redress against 
 the Crown in a vast varietv of revenue eases in which by the law of India a man 
 can get redress ? — 1 do not think a person can be said to get no redress if the 
 law does not give it to him ; the law says the revenue officer in England shall 
 be entitled to seize ; that man is not without redress, because he cannot get 
 dam; gcs from the officer, for the law permitted the officer to seize the goods. 
 
 2(147. A case occurred at Liverpool the other day in which a large cargo of 
 rice was seized, because it was all( ged that there were smuggled goods mider it. 
 The ciirgo of rice was damaged, but the smuggled goods were not found. By 
 the law of England the owner of that rice could get no redress as against the 
 Crown, but if such a case had occurred in India would not the sul)ject have 
 obtained redress against the Company '. — I do not know how he would get 
 redress in 15ombay. 
 
 2648. Are not you aware that by the law of India universally, the stibject 
 is put ui)on the fooling of perfect equality with the (iovernment, and that he 
 can prosecute for damages in the Company's courts?--! am not speaking of 
 the regidation law ; I am speaking of the law in Bombay, where a large native 
 po])ulation is congregated together. There a merchant who has his house 
 broken open upon a charge affecting the revenue cannot obtain any redress 
 again-t tlie collector vvlio makes the seizure.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOllIES. -221) 
 
 Lutice, 11" (lie Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMllEHS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. r>aiin<;-. 
 
 Sir R. H. lnn;lis. 
 
 Mr. Macaulwy. 
 
 Mr. J. FitzGerald. 
 
 Sir J. W. Hoocr. 
 
 Mr. lUIiot. 
 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 
 Mr. Hume. 
 
 Sir T. H. Maddock. 
 
 Mr. llardinge. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Mr. Spooner. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Mr. II. H. Clive. 
 Sir Cliarles Wood. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 M r. Laboucliere. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 The Right Honourable Sir Edward Ryav, called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 2649. Chairman.'] HOW long have you sat upon the Privy Council as a Right Hon. 
 Court of Appeal from judgments in India? — I have been present since 1840, sir Ed-ca id Riau. 
 part of the time being summoned to attend as assessor in Indian cases till 1850, — — 
 when I became a member of the Judicial Committee. For 10 yeai's, therefore, n April ]8.)3. 
 
 I have attemled the Judicial Committee upon the hearing of Indian Appeals. 
 
 2650. Have you been pretty constant in your attendance .' — I believe I have 
 been present at this hearing of every appeal from India during this time. 
 
 2651. Wl)at has been your experience as to the relative number of appeals 
 from the Supreme Courts of India and the Comj^any's Courts .' — I have had 
 an account made ont at the Privy Council, which I believe is accurate. This 
 is a memorandum of judgments affirmed, reversed, and varied from the 
 Sudder Dewanny Adawlut and the Supreme Courts of Bengal, Bombay, and 
 Madras respectively, from 1834, which was the jieriod of the establishment of 
 the Judicial Committee, to the present time. From Bengal, from the Supreme 
 Court, there have been 6 decrees affirmed and ] 2 reversed ; from the Sudder 
 Dewanny .Adawlut there have been 38 decrees affirmed, 1 1 reversed, and 7 
 varied ; from the Supreme Court at Bombay there have been 7 affirmed, 
 8 reversed and I varied; from the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut there have been 
 18 affirmed and 7 reversed. From the Supreme Coiu't at Madras there have 
 been 2 affirmed, and 6 reversed ; from the Sudder Dewanriy Adawlut at iMadras 
 there have been 9 affirmed and 7 reversed. Therefore, the total number from 
 the Supreme Courts and Sudder Dewanny would be 80 affirmed, 51 reversed, 
 and 8 varied. This, of course, is no very accurate criterion of the correctness 
 of the decisions, comparing the Supreme Courts and the Sudder Court, for 
 various reasons. In the first place, the appeals from the Sudder Courts are 
 frequently for the purposes of delay. It may be more profitable to appeal a 
 case with all the expense attending it, for the purposes of delay, in order that 
 the parties may gain by that delay the means of disposing of the property in the 
 suit. Another reason is, that from the Sudder Coiu'ts parties ajjj^eal constantly 
 upon matters of fact. The Committee is aware that the evidence in the 
 Mofussil Courts, though I fancy some alteration is now contemplated, is not 
 taken, generally speaking, viva voce in the j)resence of the judge who hears the 
 case ; it is taken by officers of the Court, and the judge has to decide upon 
 the evidence in its written form ; of course, an appellate Court has the same 
 materials of forming an opinion upon matters of fact, where they are on 
 paper, as the original court, and therefore, upon matters of fact on paper there 
 is more reason to appeal to another tribunal ; it has the same materials 
 of judging. That is the case in appeals which come before the Privy Council 
 from the Ecclesiastical and Admiralty Courts in this country. The evidence is 
 taken in the same way ; and in such cases the Privy Council has the same power 
 
 0.10, F F 3 of
 
 230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ^s'"^ Hon. Qf forming an opinion upon niattei's of fact on paper as the original tribunal 
 "^ ?/««. j^^^i jj^ ^jjg Supreme Court, the Committee is aware, the evidence is taken viva 
 
 ,, - ., „ voce. AVhen I was before the Committee on a former occasion, I pointed out 
 
 II April 185-:!. , 1 . , . , . , MM • 1 1 1 -11 
 
 the mode in which it was taken. Ihe judge liears the evidence, takes notes 
 
 of tlie evidence, and gives his opinion upon matters of fact. In civil cases, the 
 Committee is aware, there is no jury in the Supreme Court in India, but the 
 judges aw judges of matters of fact as well as of law. There is therefore less 
 reason for api)caling upon matters of fact to any appellate tribunal, than where 
 the evidence is taken merely upon paper, and where the appellate tribunal 
 would be equally able to judge as the original tribunal. I need not say that the 
 Privy Council, being composed of English lawyers, accustomed to oral evidence, 
 would be very unwilling to reverse any decision from the Supreme Courts of 
 India upon matters of fact, presuming that those who heard the witnesses would 
 be the most competent judges ; they would not be so unwiUing, perhaps, to deal 
 with the evidence taken in the manner in which it is taken in the Mofussil 
 Courts, merely upon paper, though there, I must say, they are extremely 
 unwilling, generally speaking, to reverse decisions upon questions of fact, con- 
 sidering that those who preside in the Courts below are generally better con- 
 versant with the manners, and habits and customs of tlie natives, and are 
 therefore very much better judges of matters of fact than the appellate tri- 
 bunal in this country could be ; and there is great reluctance, indeed I hurdly 
 recollect an instance, during my experience, of the reversal of any judgment in 
 the ^lofussil Courts upon matters of fact. There is another reason why there 
 should not be the same number of reversals in appeals from the Sudder Courts. 
 The Supreme Courts have to administer a technical system of law ; they have 
 to follow the rules of the English Common Law on the Common Law side of the 
 Court : and to follow the established rules, and principles and practice of pleading- 
 established, both in Courts of Law on the Common Law side, on the Equity 
 side, and the Ecclesiastical side. Tlierefore there may be appeals upon what 
 may be termed, to a certain extent, technical questions of law ;iud forms of 
 pleading, and there may be reversals from the Supreme (Jourts upon that more 
 strict and technical system, perhaps altogether independent of the real and sub- 
 stantial merits of the case. That is not the case in appeals from the Sudder Court, 
 because it is the invariable practice of the Privy Council, in apjjeals from the 
 Sudder, to search out, as far as they are able, what is the substantial justice of 
 the case, and to see whether substantial justice has been done in the case, inde- 
 pendent]) of all forms of ])rocedure and all technicalities ; and wherever they 
 are satisfied that substantial justice has been done the judgment ajipealed from 
 is t;onfirmed. 'i'hey have not the same power of dealing with cases from the 
 Supreme Court, owing to the technical system of law which they are bound to 
 adiiiinister in those cases. I am now giving reasons, shewing why there are a 
 gi-eater number comparatively speaking, of judgments in the Sudder Dewanny 
 Court affirmed, than in the Supreme Court. The Committee, therc'fore, must 
 not take the actual returns ;is a strict and absolute criterion of the mode in 
 which the two courts administer justice. 
 
 ■?.6!)2. Mr. EHice.] Therefore, in fact, more substantial justice is done as 
 regards the merits of the case in appeals from the Sudder Courts than in 
 appeals from the Queen's Courts in India ? — 1 cannot say that more substantial 
 justice is done ; there may be cases where a technical law of either pleading or 
 practice might oblige tin; ( 'ourt above, independently of the merits, into which 
 they would not then enter, to reverse the judgment ; whereas no such techni- 
 calities of any sort or kind would enter into their consideration, where the 
 apjieal was from the Company's Courts. 
 
 26.53. My question refers exclusively to the merits of the case r--In the one 
 case the merits would be entered into ; in the other case they probably would 
 not. 
 
 2C.54. As respects the result of those appeals it must be more satisfactory, 
 so far as the ends of justice are concerned, in the cases from the Sudder 
 Adawlut Courts than from the Supreme Courts? — Certainly, in that respect ; 
 that is owing to the technical procedure which exists in the English Courts. 
 
 2^)55. Mr. AIani(le.s.] You might reverse an appeal U|)on technical points 
 against the real merits of the question ? —That is quite possible, and it often 
 happens in the courts of this country. 
 
 2G5G. Chairman.']
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TKllRITOlllES. 231 
 
 2fi'')6. Chairnum.] I understood you to say that there were reasons wliy ;he Itigln Hon. 
 appeals from the Company's Courts should be more frequent tlian from the ■'^''' ^'''lo'rf lit/an. 
 Supreme ('ourt, for purposes of (h-lay ? — Yes ; the mode of prneedure in appe;ds ; 
 
 from the Supreme Court is this; tiie petition of apjieal is presented to the " ■W'^" ^°SZ- 
 Court, and the s^rounds of appeal earefuUy set forth ; that is signed generally 
 by two barristers, wlio attest, by their signatures, that there is good ground of 
 appeal, and that there are matters for the consideration of a superior Court, 
 and that the judges in the Court below have upon those matters miscarried. 
 There is, therefore, that restri(;tion upon appeals, that a barrister, I sup- 
 pose, would not put liis name, reconnnending an appeal for any purposes but 
 those of a substantial nature, he thinking that the judgment in the Court 
 below was erroneous. 
 
 ••'(i.37. Mr. Af(/fi(/i'es.^ Is it the case that, upon a decree by the Sudder 
 Court, from whicdi there is an appeal to the Queen in Council, the decree is 
 not executed before it comes houic r — Sometimes they are executed, and some- 
 times security is taken ; the case is dealt with according to what may be the 
 views of the Sudder Court upon the particular case, and the a{)plications made 
 to it by tb.e parties. 
 
 2()58. Either the decree wordd be executed, or the parties would give ample 
 security .' — The question of giving good security is often one of difficulty ; they 
 do give what is sui)posed to be ample secuiity, but it is in the giving of this 
 security, which sometimes turns out to be anytliing but a security, which leads 
 to appealing for the purposes of delay, and answers the ends of the parties in 
 the Court below. It sometimes gives rise to a subsidiary suit, whether the 
 sureties given in are substantial persons or not, and it is one of the great 
 causes of delay in transiiiitting appeals from the Company's Courts in India. 
 
 2659. Mr. Maccmlny.^ Is there no check of any sort, such as the signatures 
 of two barristers, before an appeal is sent from the Sudder Courts to the 
 Judicial C'omraittee of the Privy Council? — I think there is no formal check of 
 that sort ; the vakeels, who practise in the Court, would recommend the appeal, 
 but the check is not of the same nature or force. 
 
 •2660. Is the a))peal a matter of right ? — Yes, both in the Supreme and the 
 Sudder Courts, where the amount exceeds a certain sum. 
 
 2()6i. Do you recollect what the sum is? — £.1,000. 
 
 2662. Would it be worth while for a person to appeal to the Supreme (Jourt 
 for a less sum than 1,000/. '.'—That would depend upon circumstances ; some- 
 times it would be worth while, bf cause it may decide -a class of cases, as has 
 lately happened in the great opium cases in India. 
 
 2663. Mr. Elliot.] Would not the precaution which is taken by the Supreme 
 Court, of requiring the signatures of two barristers liefore the appeal is pre- 
 sented, rather act as a reason why the appeals against the decisions in that 
 Court should be less frequently reversed than in the Sudder ? — No, because 
 cases are cai-efully considered as to whether they are tit cases for appeal, 
 and only are appealed from if the barri-ters after full inquiry into the case think 
 there are substantial grounds, it is therefore probable that a greater number of 
 those cases will be reversed. 
 
 261)4. Mr. J. Fitzgerald.'] Is the certificate signed by two barristers, as is the 
 case in the House of Lords r— Yes. 
 
 261)5. ^ on require a case pi-esented to the House of Lords to be signed by 
 two barristers who have been engaged in the case ? — Yes. 
 
 2666. That has a natural tendency to check any appeals from the Supreme 
 Court, but those where, in the judgment of two barristers, there is good ground 
 for appeal? — Yes. 
 
 2667. Chairnian.] Have you any further observations to make to the Com- 
 mittee ? — -No. 
 
 Sir Erskine Perry, called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 266S. Chairman.] IN your evidence t'ne other day, you mentioned the age at Sir E. Peny. 
 
 which judges in the Company's Courts who decided appeals had that authority. — — . 
 
 Are there any facts or any addition to that evidence which you wish to place 
 before the Committee ? — The statement which I maile of a matter of fact which 
 I have seen with my own eyes appears to have been doubted, and, in fact, 
 I believe was contradicted by a gentleman who has been before the Committee. 
 
 0.10. F F 4 ' I took
 
 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. 1 took paiiis therefore, when I went home, to verify by record the statement 
 
 which I had made. I find it stated by Mr. Hill, the judicial secretary at the 
 
 11 April 1853. India House, that "an Enghsh judicial officer becomes a judge in an appellate 
 Court before he has sat as a judge in a Court of original juriscUction. This 
 has been complained of, but I do not see how it can be remedied. The civil 
 service is too great a Inirden to the State already, and you could not increase 
 the number of civil servants." That is in the Blue Book, published by the 
 House of Lords ; but there is a Return made to this Committee from the India 
 House, showing the number of original suits and appeals decided by the judges 
 and by the assistant judges in the Presidency of Bombay during the year 1849. 
 The question in dispute, I appi'ehend, was whether young men of three or four 
 and twenty years of age sat as judges, and whether they sat in appeal. I have 
 made an abstract of that Return, which shows the following facts : Mr. Forbes 
 in that year tried eight original suits, and 292 appeals. His length of service, 
 which information I obtain from the Directory which was put into my hands 
 the other day, was six years. Mr. Rogers, of Surat, tried five original suits, 
 and 235 appeals : his length of service was four years. Mr. Lloyd, of Tannah, 
 tried five original suits, and ] 2(1 appeals ; his length of service was live years. 
 The same gentleman, at Rutnagherry, tried no original suits, but 44 appeals. 
 Mr. Corfield tried one original suit and 4/7 appeals. Mr. Newton tried no 
 original suit, but 61.5 appeals. Mr. Leighton no original suits, but 22 a])peals. 
 This gentleman's length of service was three years ; and so the Return goes 
 on ; the result being that those assistant judges in that year tried 28 original 
 suits and 2,272 appeals. The length of service stated here does not of course 
 show how long they had been serving as judges, but you will find one young 
 man of only three years' service acting as an assisting judge, and I believe the 
 age at which a young man enters the service in India is between 20 and 21 ; 
 therefore it is quite clear that this young gentleman could not have been more 
 than 23 years of age in the year 1849, and he might have been sitting for a year 
 previously as an assistant judge. 
 
 26(10. Do the assistants to the judges in Bombay sit upon appeal ? — There is 
 no such class of officei's there. 
 
 2670. Does that paper show the class of people from which the appeals are 
 brought ? — i\o ; the assistant judge sits upon appeals on cases from the subor- 
 dinate native judges, the sudder amin, the principal sudder amin, and the 
 moonsiffs ; he sit? in appeal upon such cases as the judge assigns to him ; but 
 the term " assistant judge " seems to have led some Membei's of the Committee 
 to suppose that hv is a mere assistant to the judge, whereas what I desired to 
 throw out was, th;it he sits as a judge, and decides the appeals which come 
 before him. 
 
 2t>7i. '^Iv. Manglcs.~\ Are you confident that the assistant judge does hear 
 ai)peals from the sudder amins and the piincipal sudder amins r — I beliiive 
 Mr. Reid, who has been sunmioned before the Committee, will state such points 
 more accurately than I can. 
 
 2672. Mr. Mncuuhn/.] Do the assistant judges hear any appeals which are not 
 specially referred to them by the zillah judge : — 1 do not know how that part 
 of the business is managed. 
 
 2673. INIr. KlUot.~\ You have stated that selected cases are made over from 
 the judge to the assistant judge ? — I presume the judge takes the more important 
 and heavier cases, and assigns the smaller ones to the assistant judge. 
 
 2674. Mr. Mncaidmj^ The zillah judges are generally persons of mature age 
 and long experience, are they not .' —Yes, 20 years' standing ; I ought to 
 mention, perhaps, that many very good authorities in India think that this 
 system of the young men going into the judicial office at 23 years of age is a 
 better one than exists in other ])arts of India ; that it is better than men going 
 into the judicial office after 20 years of service in another department. 
 
 2675. Mr. M(i)i()le.s.] Is not it the case that a judge at ijombay and else- 
 where is not merely a judge, but also a manager as it were of the civil business 
 throughout the district; and that he has the power of choosing such appeals as 
 he will hear himself, such as he will send to the principal sudder amin or the 
 sudder amin, and such as he will send to the assist;mt judge r— He is the head 
 of the office ; they are all at the zillah town, and no doubt the judge has great 
 power in the arrangement of his list. 
 
 2()7(.). Is not that part of his duty : and was not the object of taking away from 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOIIIES. 233 
 
 the judge the pi-inciiml part of the primary suits to leave his liands free to Sir K. I'crry. 
 
 manage those matters with regard to the allotment of appeals and the suiierin- 
 
 tendence of the whole eivil and criminal administration of the district .' — As n. April i8j.j. 
 
 I have already shown, the European judges have no original jurisdiction in fact ; 
 
 the statement here shows that there are not two per cent, of the original suits 
 
 decided by any Euroj)ean. 
 
 •2(177. Is not the system directed to that end, to relieve those highly-i)aid 
 fund ionaries from any primary jurisdiction, on the belief that their time W'iil be 
 best and most protital)ly employed in mauai;ing the administration of justice, 
 and seeing- that the ajipeals are i)r()perly allotted and properly heard r — I do not 
 know the reasons which led to tliose arrangements, of course. 
 
 •;'()7S. Sir T. II. Mt'ddoclc.'] To what tribunal are those; decisions of the 
 assistant judges on appeals a])pealable ? — In some cases to the judge ; in some 
 other eases of larger amount tisey are ai)])ealable to the Sudder Adawlut. 
 
 .2ii7(). The judgments of the zillah judges arc appealable only to the .Sudder 
 Adawlut? — No. 
 
 •_'68o. .Are vou aware whether the decisions in appeal of the Sudder Adawlut 
 are reversed in any greater proportion in eases which come up from the 
 assistant judges than those which come up from the zillah judges ? — I do not 
 know. .Vll I know on the subject is, the matter of fact w hieh I have stated, 
 that the decisions of the native judges are found to be better than the decisions 
 of the I'-uropean judges ; that is the experience of the practitioners in the 
 Sudder Court ; that is the statement which they make in open court before the 
 judges, as the judges themselves inform me. 
 
 2ti8i. Mr. Hai'{i'i)itjc.] Up to what amount can an assistant judge in Bombay 
 decide in civil cases r —I apprehend he can decide to any amount on appeal. 
 
 2082. To what amount in original jurisdiction ? — ^There is no original juris- 
 diction, except in a certain class of cases called reserved cases. 
 
 26S3. Cluiinnai!.] Have you anything to add to your previous evidence as to 
 the case of Nursoopunt: — 1 made an unfortunate allusion the other day to a 
 case which is tb.e subject of eontrov<'rsv, and I quoted it from memor)'. [ wish 
 to correct a little imiccuracy in the statement that I made, as 10 the point on 
 w hieh he was convicted. I have stated that he was convicted of having imjn-o- 
 perly used Mr. Reid's name, but I find, in the final judgment of the Court, that 
 that was considered trumpery, and that he was only found guilty of one charge 
 in fact, which v.as pointed out to me on the last day I was here, as being a very 
 important charge ; but, on refen-ing to the judgment of Lord Falkland, it corro- 
 borates the opinion which I have ventured to give, that it was a very venial 
 matter. On charge the second Lord Falkland thus writes : " On mature con- 
 sideration of the whole of the above cases, I have come to the following conclusion, 
 that, if we except the charge of having misled Colonel Outram himself, Nursoo- 
 punt has in this case been convicted of having, in his abridgment of proceedings, 
 which he prepared for the Resident, omitted to specify a fact notorious to all 
 who have acquaintance with any Hindoo law, namely, that the sum of interest 
 which may be charged on a loan should not exceed the amount of the principal ;" 
 and I should add that a member of the Government, who alone had the jndicial 
 arrangement, Mr. Bell, a gentleman who had been a judge for thirty-six years, 
 gave his clear opinion that he ought to have been acquitted upon all the charges. 
 I merely gave this illustration, for the purpose of calling the attention of the 
 Committee to a subject which I know is grievously comjjlained of by the native 
 officials, namely, that no fit tribunal is offered them for the trial or investigation 
 of cases in which charges are brought against them ; and my opituon is, that 
 they have some ground for this dissatisfaction. .A native gentleman, of large 
 fortune, in Bombay, whom I advised to place his only son in the Government 
 service, a very well-educated young man, gave me as a reason for not enteiing 
 him in the Government service, a fear of his being turned out in disgrace on 
 some small point on which he might give dissatisfaction to his innnediate 
 superior. As a question of good government, I thought it very propter to bring 
 the subject before the notice of the Committee at the i)iesent time. 
 
 2684. Sir li. II. Inglis.] You have used the word " trumpery," as applied to 
 a decision of the Court, in respect to a particular charge. Do you mean that 
 that word was used in the decision." — I think, if you will read the decisions of 
 the judges in appeal, that is the effect of it ; the word " trumpery " was not 
 used. 
 
 o.io. G G 2OJS.5. Mr.
 
 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. 2685. Mr. Elliot.^ Are you not aware that, whatever the feeling at Bombay 
 
 ~T .." „ may be, in the greater part of India the greatest dread of a person of respecta- 
 
 P""! 1 53- ijjijj^y jg ijeing brought into a court of justice at all? — Yes, I am aware of tbat 
 
 fact. 
 
 2686. Are not you also aware, that those persons would infinitely rather have 
 an inquiry into their conduct by a person appointed as a commissioner so to 
 inquire, than be brought into a court : — Yes ; I think this late Act of 1850 is 
 an improvement upon the previous procedure ; but I think it is not by any 
 means so good as it ought to be, and as it would l)e if English functionaries of 
 rank were tried under it. 
 
 2G87. Mr. Hnme.'] Are the Committee to understand that, in your opinion, 
 if the natives were bettor paid, and had the assurance of being better pro- 
 tected in the execution of their duties, and of having a fair trial by persons of 
 a superior class, where fault was found with them, the service of the natives 
 would be thereby very much improved ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 26(S8. Mr. Mangles.'] Is it within your knowledge that any native judges, 
 who have been charged with any sort of malversation, have not had a perfectly 
 fair and formal trial? — I partake of the opinion entertained by many members 
 of the civil service, that it is very difficult to get a fair trial of a man of that 
 kind, if some young, ardent administrator takes up the case against him. 
 
 2689. That young and ardent administrator would not be the judge in the 
 case. In the case of a principal sudder amin charged with malversation, 
 would not the Sudder Court determine it ? — No, I think the zillah judge would 
 decide the case 
 
 2690. Is it the case at hombay that the zillah judge has the power of 
 removing a principal sudder amin, or a sudder amin ? — A sudder amin, I 
 think he has ; I think the removal of the principal sudder amin belongs to 
 the Sudder. 
 
 2O91. Does not it belong to the Government itself on the report of the Sud- 
 der?— There is a distinction between the different ranks; I do not quite 
 recollect what it is. 
 
 2692. You drew a distinction between the manner in which a high native 
 functionary and a high European lunctionary would be dealt with ; how is a 
 civil servant accused of malversation tried? — A civil servant accused of malver- 
 sation would be tried, no doubt, before the Supreme Court and a jury, just as 
 in this country. 
 
 2()93. If the Government eventually determined to proceed criminally against 
 him that would be so ; but for the purpose of tlepriving him of his appointment, 
 how would he be tried ? — I am happy to say that no civil servant was tried for 
 malversation during my period of service, so that I cannot answer the question. 
 
 2694. Do not you know what the law on the subject is? — They have some 
 power, I suppose, of issuing a commission. 
 
 2695. Mr. Mactmlai/.] Are not you aware of cases in which civil servants, 
 accused of misconduct, have been examined before a commission specially 
 appointed by the Government, and in which, on the report of such commis- 
 sioners, they have been turned out of office <' — I have heard of such cases. 
 
 2b9(). Are not you aware that there actually have been such cases ? — At the 
 present moment I cannot recall to my mind any case of the kind. 
 
 261)7. Mr. J. Fitzgerald.] The Committee understand from your evidence, 
 that you have not only acted as judge of the Supreme Court of (Bombay, but 
 have travelled a good deal through India .' — Yes, I have travelled a great deal. 
 
 2698. And that you generally disapprove of the judicial system which is now 
 at work there r — Yes. 
 
 2(i()9. Will you tell the Committee, from the inquiries that you have made, 
 A\hether there is anything in the present constitution of the Indian Govern- 
 ment which has a tendency to check judicial or legal re-form ? — I thuik the 
 great evil in the judicial system of the Company is, that the high judicial 
 servants, or the European judicial servants, are all taken from the civil service, 
 who are sent out to India at a very early jieriod of life, and who, by the arrange- 
 ments I have described, have not the means of l)ecoming good judges. 
 
 •2700. The question refers to the constitution of the present Indian Govern- 
 ment. Is there anything in it, in your opinion, wliich checks judicial or legal 
 reform ? — Undoubtedly so. The civil appointments being in the hands of the 
 Home Government, I think that any scheme which might be proposed, such as 
 
 I should
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 235 
 
 I should propose, and as I have suggested to the Committee, for selecting judges Sir E. Perry. 
 
 from a different class, either from tlic natives, or from the bar at home, would 
 
 not be hkely to meet with a ver)' favourable attention from the hands of gentle- '* ■^P'"'' '^5-3- 
 men who are remunerated by their patronage. 
 
 ■J 701. As I understand from other evidence which has been given, if any code 
 is proposed, it has to be referred to the Home (iovernment, to be submitted to 
 the Board of Control, and also to the Board of Directors. Do you see anjthing 
 in that s3'stem which has a tendenc}' to impede judicial and legal reform ? — 
 Judging by my own experience for the last 12 year.s, I have found in the present 
 system great obstacles to the introduction of legal reforms. I have found those 
 obstacles ; and I attribute them, of course, to the form of Government. 
 
 •_'702. Will you be good enough to state what those obstacles are which 
 you have experienced yourself r — The judges of the court to which I belonged, 
 for example, were continually addressing applications to the Government to im- 
 prove the efficiency of the court, to reduce the expenditure, that they might take 
 upon themselves more duties, and to prevent other courts, of what they con- 
 sidered an inferior character, being substituted in their place. All those attempts 
 were fruitless. 
 
 •2703. In what manner were those attempts defeated? — In one case, for 
 example, the judges of the court introduced a system of summary jurisdiction 
 to a greater extent than had before prevailed. In sending up the rules to the 
 Supreme Government, wiiich were necessary to make the system work, it was 
 stated that the judges had done all they could to introduce an improved system 
 of judicatvn-e ; but that to introduce a more efficient and complete system, the 
 assistance of the Legislature was required. Thereupon the Supreme Govern- 
 ment requested the judges to frame an Act to carry out those views. An Act 
 was accordingly framed, which was read a first time in the Supreme Council ; 
 but it was afterwards intimated to the judges that orders from the Home 
 Government had come out to prevent any such Act being passed. Another 
 example is, that when the Home Government ordered, as we understand, that 
 an Act should be passed for establishing a court similar to the County Court 
 here, in Bombay, on the opinion of the judges being given that the Act would 
 not be an improvement in Bomba)', and on the Government giving an opinion 
 to the same effect, and on the natives of Bombay petitioning the Home Govern- 
 ment to prevent this new Act being introduced, the Act nevertheless was 
 passed, and it was intimated to us that it was by the oi-ders of the Home 
 Government that such proceedings took place. 
 
 2704. I have before me a pamphlet which has reference to Madras ; I wish 
 to ask you a question or two in reference to Bomba}' ; 1 find it stated here that 
 when a collector is old enough he is made a judge, and to this step there is 
 almost no exception, if it is wished for : from your knowledge of the Bombay 
 Presidency is that the case at Bombay I — I recollect living with a collector in 
 the Nortii-western Provinces who expressed exactly the same opinion, that he 
 should apply for a judgeship because it was a step in advance, and he was en- 
 titled to it from his seniority ; he was afterwards made a judge accordingly. 
 In Bombay such a state of facts \v ould not exist, for a coUectorship there is as 
 well paid, perhaps better, than a judgeship ; but in the North-western Provinces 
 the jjay of a judge is ratlier higher than the pay of a collector. 
 
 •2705. I liud also another passage to this effect ; that some who mismanage 
 their districts are sent to be promoted to be judges against their will ; iiave vou 
 ever known any such case as that taking place in the Bombay Presidency '. — 
 There was a very striking case of the same sort ; a gentleman was placed in 
 the Sudder Adawlut, because it was understood that he had given dissatisfaction 
 in the revenue department. 
 
 270(i. Dissatisfaction, in what manner? — I suppose nothing at all affecting 
 his moral conduct ; but some hastiness. 
 
 2707. A man might be very unfit for the revenue department, and yet make 
 a good judge; are you able to state what was the cause of dissatisfaction 
 which led to his removal from the revenue department to the judicial bench? 
 — Tt is a case which occurred during my residence in India. I think it was 
 some hastiness or petulance of conduct which gave dissatisfaction ; he was 
 then placed in the Sudder Adawlut ; he had never previously been in the 
 judicial department at all. 
 
 2708. In some of your answers to previous questions you suggested, as a 
 0.10. G G 2 better
 
 230 MINUTF.S OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Penj/. better source for selecting judges from, that they might be taken from the 
 
 local bars here r — Yes. 
 
 11 April 1853, 'Jjoq. Your attention was ealletl to the difHeulty in reference to their 
 
 ignorance of the language ; do you think if a local European and native bar 
 were encouraged in the Sudder Courts, yon would not b.ave a bettor means of 
 selection of judges from them than from eiiher the English. Irish, or Scotch 
 bar: — It is a great advantage to the administration of justice to have a few 
 men going out from this coiuitry at a somewhat mature period of life, and 
 imbued with all the notions of the most advanced state of public opinion in 
 this country. Therefore I think a few English judges going out in the way 
 I have suggested would be a great advantage to the whole judicial system. 
 
 ■J710. As a general rule, do not you think they might he better selected 
 from the local bar, provided the local bar ^\c're encouraged with the prospect 
 of such promotion ? — Y'es ; if the local bar is large enough, you would have a 
 better source to apply to, to ol)tain qualified judges. 
 
 271 1. Would not the local bar be increased in number, if such inducements 
 as those which have been pointed out to you were held out? — Undoubtedly; 
 the young natives also would be eligilile for the s;ime positioii. In the scheme 
 1 have ventured to suggest for the filHng up of the zillah judgeships, I have 
 also contemplated that natives, when found competent, would be raised to that 
 office. 
 
 2712. Supposing such inducements as have been pointed out were held out 
 to the local bar, in addition to having a good supply of competent advocates, 
 do not you think that such parties woidd be induced to learn the vernacular 
 languages ? — Undoubtedly ; and you might also add a most effective stimulus, 
 by making the salary in some degree dependent upon it ; making it 2,000 I. a 
 year at first, to be raised to 2, .500 /. or ,'{,000 /. on the acquisition of the 
 native language. 
 
 21713. In the case of the English bar, up to a recent period, it was altogether 
 self-taught, but you have had from that bar judges of the highest character 
 and reputation. Would not such be likely to be the result in India if you had 
 an extended local bar, consisting both of Europeans and natives r — Undoubtedly. 
 
 2714. Do you yourself think, as a matter of judgment, that it would be more 
 difficult to become acquainted, as English lawyers have done, with the system 
 of special pleading, and the law of real property, tlian witii the native lan- 
 s:ua2;esr — I tliinkanv clever barrister, bea-innin<r a native lana'uage at 28 or .SO, 
 would have very little difficulty in making liimsclf sufficiently master of it, in a 
 twelvemonth, to be a very well tpialified adniini.strator. 
 
 271.5. Mr. Ilardiiifie.] And witli the 7nanners and custoais of the natives as 
 well? — I do not think any of us are thoroughly convers;nit with tlieni after 30 
 years" residence in the country. 
 
 2716. Mr. J. Fitz'i/crah/.] Is tliere any modc^ in wliich a party here could 
 become acquainted with the science of land tenures in India? — No. 
 
 2717. Would an intimate knowledge of the science of land tenures be essen- 
 tial to form a good Englisli judge r -Queslions of tenure come princii)ally 
 before the (collector, and are decided l)y him in a court of summary jurisdiction ; 
 they do not come before the judges. 1 may add, with respect to the zillah 
 judges, the number of appointments in ([uestion are extremely few. I have 
 shown that tliere are al)out H4 zillali courts, and the appointments to fill up 
 those courts, if they were taken from that country, or from this country from 
 the local bar, would not exceed more than four or five pi r aninun, which is 
 a very small number to su])ply. 
 
 27! 8. With respect to the syst.'m of ])rocednrc in Uw. Sudder Courts, the 
 Committee understand from your j)revious evidence tiiat one great want in the 
 administration of justice in India is some new and simple (!ode of procedure? 
 —Yes. 
 
 27 K). Am 1 right in stating that tlie present system, in point of fact, is a 
 cumbrous, comjjiicated, and expensive system .' — I think so. 
 
 2720. .And most tedious? .More so, I think, than the English system. 
 
 27J1. Do you think tliat it would be necessary to the due administration of 
 justice, that there should be some code of j>rocedure which woukl embrace 
 .siinplicity and economy as wcH as exi)edition ? — Ci-rtainly : also, of course, with 
 the ])ower of ai)pealing in all eases above a very small anmunt. 
 
 2722. Till you have a procedure of that kind is it p',)Ssil)le to Irave justice 
 
 well
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX INDIAN TKIJIUTOIIIES. 
 
 237 
 
 wcU administoix'd in the civil ('(jui-ls tlua'c ? — I tliink it is vcrv essential to a Sii- /:. y-'nry. 
 
 <lu(' Mdministratioii of jiistiee to liave a more simple and eeoiioniieal svsteii! of — 
 
 procedure. " " -^i''! 1 ".•■>]• 
 
 2723. It has been stated by other witnesses that the svsteiii of ['leading is 
 very eund)rous ; ])arties are allowed to eneumber their pleadiniis with allega- 
 tions quite foreign to the matters in dispute; have the parties to takeout 
 ooi)ies of those pleadings r — I do not know. 
 
 •J7J4. You have said, in reierenee to ([uestions of tenure, that the judges of 
 the zillah courts have not questions of that kind brought before them ? — Xot 
 ordinarily. 
 
 ■j; J,'). Is not then^ an ai)i)eal from the summary decision of a collector to the 
 ordinary judicial authorities (—i think an appeal lies from the collector to the 
 connnissioner of revenue ; there are cei'tain eases where, if a law point occurs, 
 an appeal will lie to the jud.ue ; but in t!ie more numerous eases the appeals 
 from the collector lie to a different autliority. 
 
 2726. I observe in the returns Avhich are already before the Committee, that 
 a large per centage of the eases which come b(>fore the zillah judges do relate 
 to questions connected with land tenures ; is not that so ? — A nnndn-r of eases 
 must come before the judges. 
 
 2727. Referring to the answer you have given as to the expedienev of 
 appointing English judges, is there any mode in which an English judge, or a 
 judge before he goes to India, could be at all made acquainted with the science 
 of law tenures in India: — No ; I think the best mode of acquiring the know- 
 ledge of any jiarticular customs as to land tenvu'es, is by niians of skilled wit- 
 nesses giving their evidence before the judge at the trial ; just as in this countrv 
 a judge trying the question of tenant right, which may vary in different counties, 
 would hear from skilled witnesses the uiost accurate opinions upon the subject, 
 and decide between them. 
 
 272S. With respect to the mode of taking evidence, there is a statement in 
 ^Ir. Norton's pamphlet, at page !tO, to which 1 wish to call your attention; he 
 says, " iNIeanwhile, seated on the floor in one corner, may be seen a native 
 writer jabbering to another native squatted inimediateh' beside him, and writ- 
 ing as fast as the man can talk ; should a stranger be tenijjted to inquire what 
 is their occupation, he would learii that an ofheer is taking a deposition in a 
 criminal case from a witness. The most abominable trash is taken down ; it is 
 ■then read out to the witness, and attested by the magistrate." Does such a sys- 
 tem of taking evidence as is there described j)revail in the Boml)ay I'residenevr 
 — I believe that that is the fact : and I think you will tind it stated also, in the 
 returns of one of the judges in the Appendix to the Blue iJook, that such a state 
 of facts exists geiierally throujrhout India. The Englisli judges have not time 
 to take the evidence ; therefore subordinate otiicers of the court are appointed 
 to takethe evidence of witnesses, three or four at a time, in dilfcrcnt parts of the 
 court. 
 
 2729. You say that the English judges have not time to take the evidence ■■ 
 — That is the cause alleged generally. 
 
 2730. Must not it take more time for the English judge to licar the evidence 
 read over to him, sign it, and afterwards consider it, than to have it taken in 
 the ordinary course, viva rorel — I have no doubt that a good system of pro- 
 cedtu'e with oral evidence would be found shorter in the end ; I only state the 
 cause which is alleged for the jjracticc. 
 
 2731. The judge would then eontine the evidence to proof of the topics in 
 issue before him - — No doubt. 
 
 2732. I will descrilje the system to you which jjrevails in our local courts, 
 and ask you your opinion as to whether it w ould he suitable to the lower eouits 
 in India. The evidence is taken, viai vod', before the jud^e ot original juris- 
 diction ; if there is an appeal, the same witnesses go before the ai)pellate judge ; 
 there is nothing on paper at all except the summons in the cause. Do you 
 consider that, for the inf( rior courts in India, that would be a better s-ystciu 
 than the present system of taking evidence in writing .' — \ far better system. 
 Nothing can be worse than a judge in a])]n'al sitting to decide matters of {m'I, 
 ujion written evidence, which have been decided l)elow by the judge of first 
 instance, who has heard many of the witnesses himself. 
 
 2733. In regard to appeals from the moonsiffs' court and from other courts 
 to the zillah judge, have you any sugiicstion to make to the Committee by 
 
 0.10. o G 3 whii.'ii
 
 i238 -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Perry. wWcli the frequency of those appeals, which tend to such delay and expense, 
 
 might be checked ? — I think the most effective systeii to introduce into India, 
 
 11 Apiil 1853. to prevent the great nvunl)er of appeals which take place, and lead to a better 
 administration of justice, would be to entrust summary jurisdiction, up to a very 
 small amount, to your highest functionaries, your collectors, your magistrates, 
 and your judges ; givini;; them a jurisdiction which should be summary without 
 appeal, up to a very small amount, say 15 or 20 rupees. B\' that means you 
 would a))ply your most experienced minds to the determination of those small 
 causes which are all-important to the poor, and which of course ought to 
 be as well decided as our system will allow. The only means of getting them 
 well decided by a cheap procedui'e is to m dve your most experienced judges 
 undertake the duty. 
 
 2734. Is there, according to the present system, any security taken in cases 
 of appeal from the decision of the moonsiff to the court immediately above ? — 
 1 am not aware of it. 
 
 •27,)5. Are the natives or not admissible, either as attorneys or advocates, in 
 the Supreme Court r — They are admissible. 
 
 27,6. Are they admitted : — As barristers they can only be admitted at pre- 
 sent by coming to England, and l^eing admitted at Lincoln's Inn or the Temple, 
 ■which, of course, operates as a practical exclusion. Tlie}' are admissible as 
 attorneys, if the attorneys choose to article them as clerks ; and up to the ])re- 
 sent time, or at least up to a very recent period, the attorneys did not choose to 
 admit them to articles ; before I came away, however, one or two were admitted, 
 and I think we have broken through the monopoh'. 
 
 2737. From the opportunities you have had of judging of the native capa- 
 city, do the natives exhibit a capacity for learning the science of law ? — I think 
 they have a lemarkable capacity for legal reasoning. 
 
 27.^,8. With regard to the new court you have suggested to be formed, by an 
 amalgamation of the Supreme Court and the Sudder Court, would you think 
 it desirable that the natives should be freely admitted as advocates in that 
 court, with a view to their subsequent admission to the Bench also? — I think 
 the most obvious dictates of justic* require that they should be so admitted. 
 
 2739. You see no danger in adopting such a course as that? — I see great 
 danger, on the other hand, in adopting the other course of excluding them from 
 all offices of emolument and honour. 
 
 2740. ]\Ir. Macaulmj.'] Is it by Act of Parliament that they are excluded 
 from being attornies ? — They are not excluded b}- law. 
 
 2741. Then the judge of the court might admit them, might not her — W e 
 have to follow the clauses of the Act of Parliament. 
 
 2742. Is being articled made necessary by the Act of Parliament ? — Yes. 
 
 2743. Mr. Cohchn.] Some douijt was expressed by an Honourable Member of 
 the Committee at the last examination, as to the practicability of finding mem- 
 bers of the bar in England, who would accept the offi'.-e of judge in India, for 
 3,000 /. a-year ; are you still of opinion that there would be no difficulty ? — 
 Since I was examined, I have had an opportunity of conversing with the heads 
 of the profession. I asked their opinions upon that point, and was authorised 
 to use tluir iiiimes ; they informed me that, so far from there being difficult;" 
 in fincting four or five per annum, 40 could easily be supplied from the ranks of 
 the bar ; comi)etent men. 
 
 2744. Witlujut any retiring pension? — I should presume the retiring jjension 
 the zillah judges now get, would be given to EngHsh judges of a better stamj). 
 
 2745. y^fter the same period of service ? — Yes. 
 
 274(1. ^'j"- ^^I'l'iiiflaj/.j Is not the period of service 25 years ? — Yes. 
 
 2747. You would hardly probably, thinking as you do, that it is desirable 
 that young men should not be entrusted with important judicial functions, 
 wish the age of ihe zillidi judges to be reduci'd below what it now is? — No. 
 
 274S. Are not the zillah judges now, with scarcely an exception, at least 
 40 years old ? — 1 sujipose so. 
 
 -J4(). In that case, could any English barrister look forward to his retiring 
 ])ensi()n till he would be at least 05 ? — I should think a zillah judge, taken 
 from the bar at 30, woidd perform the duties much l)etter than the judge at 
 38 or 40 who now jjerforms them ; ;uid 1 should consider that the pension would 
 be attained at an earlier jieriod than 24 years. A zillah judge ])ays for half 
 his jjcn^ion In deductions from his salary, the other half being granted to him 
 
 by
 
 SELECT COMMITTEi-: ON INDIAN '1~KRI{TT0RF«:S. 239 
 
 bv the East India Company ; therefore, tlie new judge deriving a larger salary sir E. Peny. 
 
 from the first, he would be mu{!li more able to pay for half of his pension, and ; 
 
 would obtain it sooner than a zillah judge who has been in a mueli less renui- " 'M'"' "^SS- 
 nerative position. 
 
 2750. You conceive that an English barrister at 30 woidd be, on an average, 
 better qualified to a(huinister justice as a /illah judge than a Company's ser- 
 vant at 40 .' — Ves; who had not been in the judi(;ial service before; that ])criod. 
 A zillah judge does not go into that employment, in most parts of Iiidi.-i, till 
 he has been 20 years in a diffi-rent employment, not jiulicial. 
 
 2751. lie has been generally in the Revenue Department? — Yes. 
 
 27.V2. And in that "capacity has had to decide important questions of land 
 tenure : — Yes. 
 
 2753. He has also been a magistrate r — Yes. 
 
 2754. And has therefore been'called on to administer criminal justice?— Yes. 
 27,'-,,'-,. The judicial faculties which are required in a judge do not probably 
 
 differ materially from those which enable a man, as a magistrate, to administer 
 criminal law, and, as a collector, to decide questions of land tenure .' — No, I 
 suppose not ; still, with all this, taking the system as it stands, the results, as 
 is proved by experience, have not been satisfactory ; tlierefore, to introduce 
 better results, I think we should look to the other expedient. 
 
 27-,ti. Sir li. H. Inglis.] You have referred to the disadvantage of a judge 
 in appeal deciding upon written evidence in a case which had been previously 
 decided by the judge of the court below on viva voce evidence ; is not that an 
 incident necessary in the case of almost all appeals, whether to the Privy 
 Council in England or to the House of Lords, or to any other conceivable 
 court in which a right of appeal can be given to the subject ?— I think not ; 
 in cases of appeal in ibis country there are very few appeals on facts. If there 
 is an appeal on facts in a case at the assizes, the course is, not to come to a 
 different judgment to the court below, but to gi-ant a new trial, in which the 
 facts will undergo a fresh investigation. 
 
 2757. In reference to the question more immediately under the attention of 
 the Committee, namely, the administration of justice in India, does the same 
 difficulty occu), whether move or less frequently, in an appeal to the Privy 
 Council or the House of Lords in England, that occurs in the case of an appeal 
 from an inferior court in India to the Supreme Court in India; is not that a 
 necessary incitlent of a right of appeal ? — No ; if the judgment of the court 
 below appears unsatisfactory on the facts, our course of proceeding is to remit 
 the case for a new trial ; and it appears to me to be a much better mode of 
 dealing with a case which does not appear satisfactory to the court above. It 
 is not therefore necessary that a court of appeal should decide upon written 
 evidence. 
 
 2758. Mr. Cobdeii.] Is it your opinion that no one should be appointed to 
 the office of judge in India who has not had a regular legal education either in 
 this country or tiiere ? — I think so. 
 
 2759. You think that a judge should have a regular training in the ])raetice 
 of law, in the same way as a shoemaker or a ))erson engaged in any other trade, 
 requires an apprenticeship and special study ? — I think so. 
 
 27(10. Mr. Hardiiiffe.] Is not a knowledge of three dialects recpiired in the 
 Bombay Presidency. Mahratta, Guzzeratee and Canarese ; and sometimes 
 Hindostanee also ? — Yes. 
 
 2761. A perfect knowledge of those dialects would be required of a person 
 holding the office of a judge on the bench ? — No doubt it would be a great 
 acquisition to a judge on the bench to know those languages, and two others 
 might be added. 
 
 2762. Could a barrister attain that knowledge in one year?— I do not think 
 that any English official cmdd attain or has attained that knowledge in our 
 Presidency, so as to be able to administer justice in all those languages. 
 
 27(13. Mr. 31aii(/les.'\ Are not there many who know one, two, or three of 
 those languages ? — You may find two or three in the list who passed in four 
 languages, and many who have passed in two languages ; but that by no means 
 shows that the man is conversant with those languages. 
 
 2764. So not having passed at college in more would not show that he had 
 not subsequently acquired them? — No; some of our best administrators in 
 India have not passed in any language. 
 
 0.10. G G 4 2765. Has
 
 240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Pcrni. -"I'o- Has that been the case recently r — Yes ; at least in my time. I believe 
 
 one of our best police magistrates in the Bombay Presidency at the present time 
 
 11 April ic.-,3. can hardly speak Hindostanee grammatically, yet he makes himself intelligible 
 to every j^erson as he y,()es along, and is better acquainted vrith the liabits of the 
 j)eople than almost any one in the service. 
 
 ■2760. Mr. n<ir(liii(/<\\ You do not think that a very perfect knowledge of 
 languages is required to till the oflice of judge: — I think it is a grea.t requisite, 
 but it is not to be attained by Europeans, where so many languages are pre- 
 Aalent. I have frequently had six languages in one trial before me in the 
 Supreme Court in 13omba}-. In the Noi'th-western Provinces, where only one 
 language is prevalent, i have no doubt the administrators are thoroughly ac- 
 quainted with it ; but where so many languages exist, a man is removed from 
 one district, where Mahratta is spoken, to another where Oanarese is spoken ; 
 he cannot make himself master of all those various dialects. 
 
 ■2767. Sir T. H. Mdddock.] You stated, on the last occasion when you were 
 before the Committee, that the administration of justice in the Supreme Courts 
 in the English language gives great satisfaction to the natives, and is attended 
 with no difficulty. You also gave an opinion that the substitution of the 
 English language for the native languages in the zillah courts might take 
 place to-morrow. It is understood that in the Presidency towns in India 
 there is a very large proportion of the nati^•cs who are intimately acquainted 
 witli the English language, but that in the zillah towns and in the country 
 generally the proportion of persons who understand the English language is 
 inlinitely smaller ; therefore the Committee wish to know on what grounds you 
 come to the conclusion that the use of the Eno;!ish lanauase might be im- 
 mediately substituted in the zillah courts for Hindostanee, or whatever may be 
 the vernacular language now employed r — My meaning was this : that if the 
 English language were substituted as the language of business in the zillah 
 courts, the course of procedure would be to supply the English judge with a 
 couple of interpreters, who would be in the court with him ; he would take all 
 the evidence viva voce, and not in that defective method which lias been referred 
 to ; of course it would be seen and heard by the public ; he would record 
 the evidence in English, and at the end of the case he would give his decision, 
 which would be notified in a translation to the public who were present. There- 
 fore the whole of the procedure at present might be conducted in the English 
 language, and that would be far more economical to the suitor by the speed 
 with which it would be got through, and afford great facility of a;)peal to the 
 court al)ove, by its being recorded in a language which they understood. 
 
 2768. Would not it occupy much more time ? — I think not ; I think it would 
 occupy a much shot ter time. 
 
 2700. Would not it place the great majority of people, who are ignorant of 
 the English language, very much in the hands of a few who do understand 
 that language, and of the interjn-eters who interpret to the judge r — All this is 
 done in o])en court ; and any mistranslation by the interpreter would be cheeked, 
 first of all by the knowledge of the judge, who is supposed to know the 
 language ; and secondly, by the interest of the suitors who are attending, stim- 
 ulated by the most powerful motive a man can have to be attentive ; namely, 
 self-interest. 
 
 2770. You suggested in your evidence the other day, that each Presidency 
 ought to have the power of local legislation, somewhat upon the same footing 
 as that which existed before the Act of 1 834 ? — Yes- 
 
 277!. What limit would you jirojjose to ])lace upon such local legislation, 
 and in what authority would you vest a control over it ? — I think the controll- 
 ing authority for the local Presidencies should be in the Home Government. 
 A suggestion Avas made, that such local government should frame an annual 
 budget every year for the expenses of the next, and on authority being given 
 from the iSupreme Government at home, the limits of that budget being at the 
 di.sjiosal of the Government. The check which the Honourable Member sug- 
 gests would then l)e ai)i)lie(l. 
 
 2772. How would you jmivide against the liability to contradictory legislation 
 in the different Presidencies? — I ju'csume, of course, thatth(i local Legislature- 
 would only Irgislate on local subjects : on weights and measures for instance, 
 municipal constitutions, and all other local matters occurring within that 
 Presidencj-. 
 
 2773. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 241 
 
 2773. You mentioned the other day that in the Supreme Courts the Hindoo Sir E. Perry. 
 law of succession is invarial)!}- followed ; have any cnactuicnts of the Legisia- •■ 
 
 tnre of late years made any alteration in that Hindoo law of succession r — " April 1853. 
 Yes, in the case of conversions to Christianity. 
 
 2774. M'hat do you consider to be the effect of those alterations, as bearing 
 upon the office of a judge who is bound to administer the Hindoo law of 
 succession to Hindoos, and is also bound to administer the English law as 
 dictated by the Legislature at Calcutta? — The Legislative Council of India, as 
 now constituted, has the pownr to repeal .Acts of Parliament, and therefore, if 
 the Legislative Council frames an Act of that kind, it does away of course 
 with the previous state of things : whether the Legislative Council should 
 have such a jjower or not is a ([uestion for I'arliament. 
 
 2775. What is your opinion upon that point ? — I think it is very desirable 
 to give them full powers of legislation, if there is to be a (central Legislative 
 Council ; but 1 tliink it is extremely desirable to define the limits to which they 
 ma}- go. There are several questions now, snh jvdice, as to their powers. The 
 Honourable Mendjcr may recollect that Mr. Bethunc claimed a power for the 
 Council to pass all kinds of Acts. Lord Dalhousie, in a very judicious Minute, 
 pointed out that they were after all only a subordin;ite Legislature, and that 
 they ought to be very cautious as to the extent to which they assumed to pass 
 laws. If Lord l)alhou.sii' had followed ]Mr. Bethune's views, the Legislature of 
 India would have been altogether supreme. 
 
 2776. Has not the Imperial Legislature acknowledged the right of the 
 Hindoos to the observance of their laws of inheritance and successiiai ? — They 
 have stated, in two or three Acts of Parliament, that such laws should be pre- 
 served to them. 
 
 2777. Was it then consistent with those Imperial Acts that the Legislature 
 of Calcutta should have enacted laws of a vei-y contrary tendency? — Looking 
 at the Act with an English eye, I cannot myself conceive that the Legislature 
 precluded themselves from i)assing any law which they thought founded upon 
 justice. 
 
 2778. Even to the subversion of any portion of the Hindoo law ? — I think 
 so, if it is found to operate unjustly. 
 
 2779. Mr. Hume.'] You have stated that it would be preferable to carry on 
 the proceedings before the judges in the Fnglish language ; are the Committee 
 to understand you to say, that the natives in the court would be better satisfied 
 if the evidence were given orall}-, and translated by two interpreters, so as to 
 enable the judge to tiecide upon it, than with the present mode of taking tlxe 
 evidence down in writing, which is handed up in great bulk ? — That is my 
 opinion. 
 
 27J>o. Tiie proceedings in court used to be taken in Persian ? — Yes. 
 
 2781. When was the change made? — In the time of Lord Auckland. 
 
 2782. Did a similar change take place in Bombay ? —That was before I went 
 to India. 
 
 2783. Supposing, in the change which then took place, the English language 
 had been introduced, do you consider that by this time a great advance would 
 have been made in that which you consider the means of facilitating justice 
 and giving satisfaction to the natives? — I think so; it seems to me that an 
 English race of conquerors part with an extremely good instrument for good 
 government, when they part with their own language. 
 
 2784. Is it your opinion that that change nught be effected, and should be 
 effected, in all tlie courts in India?- In all the superior courts presided over 
 by Englishmen. 
 
 2785. Wherever English judges preside ? — Yes. 
 
 2786. Do not you believe that, if proper rewards were held out to the 
 natives, in a very few years a good supply of men wouhl be obtaiiu'd to fill 
 many of the inferior offices, wliich are now filled by natives uninformed, or by 
 Europeans but little acquainted with the language .' — Yes ; I see steps in pro- 
 gress which will supply natives well fitted for the superior offices as well as 
 the inferior. 
 
 2787. You see no difficulty in the proceedings in all the courts being in 
 English ? — No ; and I think it would give that stimulus to education which is 
 so much desired 
 
 2788. Sir /. W. Hogg.'] Would you think any measure judicious which con- 
 0.10. H H fined
 
 242 :mixutes of evidence taken before the 
 
 Sir E. Pcrrij. fined great and important offices, either relating to the revenue or the admiu- 
 
 '. ~ istration of justice, to natives at the different Presidencies, excluding intelli- 
 
 1! •' P" ^^^^3- g.pnt natives belonging to the great families throughout the interior of India? 
 
 — I would endeavour to get those great families to send their sons into the 
 
 service as much as possible. 
 
 27S9. Those which you allude to as likel}^ to be qualified at the present 
 time, are the members of large families connected with the Presidencies r — 
 Not at Bombay, certainly ; Poonah, which is the centre of the Mahratta terri- 
 tory, where the noblemen chiefly congregate, is a gi-eat focus for education 
 also. 
 
 2791). A great number of the natives, who sj)eak English best at the Presi- 
 dency of Bombav, are Parsees, are not they.' — Parsees and Hindoos in about 
 equal nund)ers ; the Hindoos, I think, are even more eminent in scholastic 
 attainments than the Parsees. 
 
 2701. Is that so as regards the facihty with which they acquire the English 
 language, or the accuracy with which they speak it ? — The Hindoos are the 
 best scholars undoubtedly. 
 
 2702. You stated generally that the Legislative Council of India had the 
 power to repeal Acts of the Imi)erial Legislature ? — Yes, 1 think so. 
 
 2703. They cannot repeal any part of the Act which constitutes that Coun- 
 cil ? — No. 
 
 2794. Nor any Act passed subsequently to the Act which constitutes that 
 Council?— 1 think not. 
 
 27g5. Nor can they pass any Act which in any manner interferes with the 
 prerogative of the Crown ? — No. 
 
 2 7q(i. Are not those the only restraints, and restraints \\ell understood and 
 plainly defined, in the Act ? — The clause is very large indeed giving them very 
 great powers ; it is a question under that clause whether, for instance, they 
 could abolish the Supreme Court or not. I think they could not ; still an Act 
 has been passed which does tend iu some degree to abolish it. 
 
 27M7- Has any difl'erence of opinion, or any doubt arisen, relative to the 
 power of the Legislative Council except on this one point, whether the pro- 
 posed measure did or not interfere with the prerogative of the Crown ? — I 
 suppose it would be under that portion of the clause that the question would 
 arise. 
 
 2798. You never knew any doubt or difficulty arise, did you, except connected 
 with that restriction ? — There was a very important question which came home 
 to the Privy Council, wlieiher the Legislative Council had the power to legislate 
 for offences committed on the high seas. A case of arson took place on the high 
 seas, and an individual in ISombay was connected with it ; the question arose, 
 whether it was competent to the Legislative Council to pass the Act under 
 which he was tried. I was the judge on the occasion, and held that the Legis- 
 lative Council had the power to pass such au Act. An appeal was made to the 
 Privy Council, the criminal being a very rich man; the question was there 
 raised, but it was held that the Privy Council had not the power to entertain 
 the fippeal ; the point, therefore, was not decided. 
 
 2709. INlr. lildiKjU's.'] How l(ing ago was that? — Five or six years ago ; I have 
 myself raised the point in a minute w-ith respect to the jurisdiction of the 
 Legislative Council to interfere with the Supreme Court ; because it njipcared 
 to me that, the Siq)reme Court being established by Parliament, and playing 
 an in;])ortaut jiart in the constitution of India, it was an interference with the 
 constitution as established by Parliament to take away in any measure its 
 jurisdiction. 
 
 2800. Sir /. IF. Hogg.'] You spoke of a recent Act constituting courts of 
 summarv iin*isdiction at the difl'erent Presidencies ; is not that one Act which 
 applies to all the Presidencies, constituting a court with summar}' power in each 
 of them .' — It is au Act, not establishing a court at each of the Presidencies, 
 but enabling the local governments of the Presidencies to establish tliem if 
 they choose, giving them a disen'tioi;. 
 
 2801. It was under that Act that the courts now cstabhshed at Calcutta, 
 Madras, and ijombay, were established .' — Yes. 
 
 2iS()2. I\lr. Uniiic] Did not you Siiy that you objected to the quahfications of 
 the judges so named, and that you thought justice was not so well administered 
 by them as by the senior officers of the judicial department? — I did not pre- 
 sume
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEUIUTORIE.S. 24J 
 
 same to criticise the qiialifi(;;iti()ns of those judi^cs ; whiit I sui.l uas, that you '^'"' ^ ■ ^'■"./• 
 
 coukl not expect the duties to be so well performed hy judges who were ', — 
 
 merely taken from the local bar, at a small sahay, as ])\- judges to be ai)poiiited " ■^''"' '^•'•*" 
 from England at a nuieh hii^her salary. 
 
 2803. Sir T. II. A](((hlock.\ Arc jou aware whether there is any necessity to 
 amend the law n latinj^; to the powers of the Lcs^islative Couueil in India to 
 legislate u])()n matters on the hiii;li seas ? — I should think thev ought to have 
 such jiowers : for instance, the high seas extend beyond half a mile from the 
 coast ; the coolie trade from Bengal to the Mauritius, and a number of matters 
 of that kind, come clearl}' within the cognisance of the Supreme (jiDvernnu^nt ; 
 they are matters of far too small importance to take up the time of Parliament, 
 and therefore 1 should conceive that the Legislative Council ought to have 
 authority to legislate on such a subject. 
 
 2804. On what footing would you \)\\t the jjower of the Legislature of India 
 with respect to offencies and other matters on the high seas / — I would give 
 them the same power that every nation has on such subjects ; the high seas are 
 a common ground. 
 
 280-,. The question rather ajiplies to the limitation of that power which you 
 Avould introduce '1 — I would eNi)ress it largely ; i would carry out the view, that 
 I think it is desirable they should have the power to legislate as to matters 
 occurring on the high seas ; I would express in terms that they siiould have 
 such a power. 
 
 28oti. I'hat they should have dominion over the Bay of Bengal, for instance r 
 — I would not limit it in that way ; a question might arise at Aden ; you cannot 
 detine where it may be. 
 
 2807. Mr. Hume.'] Do you limit your opinion to what might be called in 
 this country the coasting trade, or do you apply it to all parts east of the Cape 
 of Good Hope? — I apply it generally; you have Hindoo subjects going to all 
 parts east of the Cape of Good Hope, and you want to have jurisdiction over 
 them wherever they go. 
 
 Sir Edward Gambler, called in ; and Examined. 
 
 2808. Chairman.'] WILL you state to the Committee what situation vou ^n E. Gambler. 
 
 held at Madras, and during what period? — I sat \x\wn the Bench of the 
 
 Supi'eme Court ;it ^Madras from the latter ))art of the 3a'ar 1836 to tlie spring 
 
 of 185U ; during eight of those years I was Chief Justice. 
 
 2809. Have you any observations to make to the Committee as to the 
 working of the Supreme Court, or is there any change which you would 
 recommend ? — I woidd recommend very consideridile changes indeed ; a 
 change in the mode of proceeding, and the mode of pleading from beginning 
 to end. 
 
 2810. Is the mode of procedure and pleading at Madras the same as at the 
 other Presidencies ? — Precisely, except that I believe some alteration has lately 
 been made at Calcutta ; I rather think it was made a short time before I left 
 India ; I did not hear, however, whether it was carried into effect ; it was an 
 alteration of the mode of pleading in cases on the common law side of the 
 court. 
 
 2811. What changes would you reconmiend ?— I would recommend the 
 abolition of the distinction between causes civil, equitable, and ecclesiastical. I 
 would reeouimend that our technical mode ofph-ading should be also abolished, 
 and that for it should be substituted in every case, legal, equitable and 
 ecclesiastical, a simple and rational mode of pleading, such as in effect has been 
 established by Sir Lawrence Peel at Calcutta, on the common law side of the 
 court. 
 
 2812. Will you state to the Committee what the system at Calcutta is : — I 
 am not perfectly acquainted with the system; but the jirinciple of it I under- 
 stand to he this, that the party should state his case in simple language, in succinct 
 terms, and not in the technical language of our English pleading. 
 
 2813. Were those improvements by Sir L;iwrenc(? Peel introduced by the 
 orders of the Supreme Court, or was it necessary to have any legislative inter- 
 ference r — They were introduced under the authority of a legislative Act, which 
 empowered the judges, with the consent of the Supreme Government, to alter 
 the mode of pleading, 
 
 0.10. H H 2 2814. The
 
 244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Siri:. Qambiet. 2S14. The same course mii^ht be adopted in the Supreme Court at Madras r 
 ; — The same course might be adopted in the Supreme Court at Madras, but I 
 
 11 April 185.1. YYould carry it further, and extend it to every part of the court, not confining it 
 to tlie common law side. 
 
 •2815. Have you any other observation with respect to the Supreme Court to 
 make to the Committee ?— I think every suggestion which I miglit make would 
 probably have reference to what 1 think a most desirable measure, the union of 
 the tvvo courts at the Presidency, the Supreme Court and the Sudder Adawlut 
 Court. 
 
 ^816. ^Vould you be in favour of tlie union of the two courts under judges 
 appointed by the Crown ? — I think that a portion of the court might be 
 appointed by the Crown, and that the remaining portion of the court might be 
 selected and appointed in the same manner that the Sudder judges are now 
 selected and appointed ; the effect of that would be, not to increase the 
 patronage of the Crown, but to some extent to diminish it. 
 
 28 1 7. Evidence should still be given orally ? — Yes. 
 
 •iSi8. U'ould you introduce a jury r -1 have great doubts about the intro- 
 duction of juries. We have never made it compulsory upon the natives to serve 
 upon juries at Madras, and I think the full benefit of the jury system would not 
 be felt unless natives served upon it 
 
 iSig. Have you had any opportunities of judging as to the efficiency of the 
 Company's courts of justice ?-~ I have no particular knowledge or experience 
 upon the subject. I only know what is the general feeling with respect to them. 
 I have had occasion only once to consider the constitution of those courts. 
 
 2820. -Are you prepared to recommend any change in the system adopted 
 in the Comjjany's courts? —I think that their system is certainly a complicated 
 one, and it is one that might be easily simplified. I think the best mode of 
 simplifying it would be by the judges of the Supreme Court and the Sudder 
 Court in concert framing genei-al rules for the procedure of all the inferior 
 courts in the Presidency. 
 
 2821. Are the Committee to understand that you would not introduce a 
 system of jury in the Supreme or Sudder Court, or that you would not extend 
 it to the inferior courts ?• — I am not prepared to sa)', that if parties wished to 
 have their causes tried by juries it mijiht not be desirable that they should have 
 that opportunity ; and I think it would be very practicable in the Supreme 
 Court at Madras, because there are a sufficient number of native jurymen, who 
 have a knowledge of the language, :ind are willing to serve. 
 
 2822. Would you introduce oral evidence into the inferior courts as well as 
 into the Supreme Courts ? — Most certainly. 
 
 2823. Would you recommend that the proceedings should be in Rnglish or 
 in the native language ? — I cannot say with respect to all the courts that I am 
 prepared to recommend that they should be in English, but I think, with re- 
 gard to the CGurts presided over by European judges in the Presidency of 
 Madras, it would be better that the pioceedings should l)e in English. The 
 situation of the Madras Presidency in that respect is very much like that described 
 to be the situation of the Presidency of Bombay. It is not like many parts of 
 Bengal and the North-Western Provinces, where only one language prevails. 
 In the Madras Presidency, a court may have to hear evidence in two or three, 
 or even four different languages, and 1 doubt very much if any European judge, 
 even tlie most exi)erieuced judge in the Company's service, has ever been able 
 to attain tliat ]ierfect knowledge of all those languages which would enable him 
 to administer justice without the aid of interpreters. 
 
 2824. Would you introduce a new code of laws into India? — I think that all 
 the different systems of law should, as far as possible, be reduced into the form 
 of (!odes, and I think that might be very easily effected. I think that the 
 Hindoo and Maliomedan laws of succession, inheritance, marriage, li'gitimacy 
 and adoption, those laws which are peculiar to them, should be drawn up in the 
 form of a code, and that any special customs which prevail in jiarticular places, 
 or among particular classes of i)ersons, should also be i)ut into the same form, 
 so that, as far as possible, all the law which is to be administered should at once 
 be accessible to those who liave to administer it ; and I think also it is very 
 necessary, in the present state of society in India, that the laws which are 
 applicable to persons not being Hindoos, and not being Mahomedans, should, 
 as far as possible, be ascertained ; that is, that it should be laid down something 
 
 in
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN lEinilTORIKS. 24,'-, 
 
 in the form of a code how far and to \vh;it extent the Eii^hsh hiw should be Sir E. Oumtitr 
 
 applicable to those cases, and in what respects the Enii;lish law should be 
 
 modified. >' April ^^52- 
 
 2SJ/5. What is your opinion as to the fitness of the natives for judicial situa- 
 tions in India : — I have not had much personal kno\vledi2;e u])on the subject ; 
 but I have a sjreat opinion of tlic powers of the natives, and })articularl\' of the 
 Hindoos. I think they are exceedingly apt and exceedingly qui(;k, and I should 
 have no fear at all of their being, under i)roper training, well qualified to fill 
 any judicial situation whatever. 
 
 28jb. Is there any such training now in existence which would fit the 
 natives for those judicial appointments ?— There is not any sufficient training, 
 and it seems to me to be one of the great defects in the system of the country. 
 A system of legal training was recommended many years ago by the Law Com- 
 mission, but no steps have been taken towards establishing what I think should 
 be founded, schools of law for eacli of the Presidencies. 
 
 •2827. ^^ hich Law Commission do you refer to ? — I think a suggestion was 
 made to the Government at the time when Mr. Amos was fourth Member of 
 the Council. 
 
 282S. With regard to the Legislative Council, have you any observations to 
 make to the Committee, or any suggestions, as to its formation or constitu- 
 tion r — I have considered the subject of the Legislative Council, and I certainly 
 am of opinion that the Council which should legislate for India ought to be 
 differently formed and differently constituted from that which now exists. In 
 my opinion the Supreme Council ought to be confined to its most important 
 functions of advising the Governor-general, and that on no occasion, when the 
 exigencies of the public service required the absence of the Governor-general 
 from Calcutta, should he proceed to any part of the territories of India unless 
 accompanied by the Members of his Council ; that is, by all who could pos- 
 sibly accompany him. I would make an exception, of course, of the Deputy- 
 governor of Bengal, and of the fourth ordinary Member of Council, who is not 
 a Member of the Council for executive purposes. But it seems to me that the 
 object of such a Council is entirely defeated, if in the most important situations 
 in which the Governor-general is placed he is permitted to act without them, 
 and to have in his own person all the powers of the Governor and Council. 
 Then, if that were so, the ( ouncil clearly could not exercise its legislative 
 functions when in that ambulatory state. Indeed it would be very incon- 
 venient that it should do so, because it is not composed of persons who have an 
 acquaintance with the wants and requirements of the other Presidencies, and 
 the different parts of India. 
 
 2829. Mr. Hume.] Is it your opinion that the fourth ordinary Member of 
 Council should on all occasions have the matters which are I'et'erred to the 
 Council submitted to him. and that he shovdd vote as well as the others ? — 
 I think as long as there is a fourth ordinary Member of Council, his presence 
 would be useful, and he might probably materially assist the Council. Looking 
 to the different persons I have known in that situation, I have no doul)t that 
 their presence -at the Council would have been an assistance ; but in my view 
 of the constitution of a Legislative Council, that office would not exi>t at all ; 
 that is, combined with the present Supreme Council. In my opinion, if a 
 Legislative Council is to hold its sittings in India, it should be composed of 
 members of the civil service from each of the Pi-esidencies, with a competent 
 number of persons acquainted with military affairs, and also a sufficient number 
 of persons of the legal profession. Such a council, however, could not be 
 constituted in India except at very great expense. In my opinion, and it is a 
 recommendation which I have made, it would be better that the general legis- 
 lation for India should be conducted by a body of persons in this country ; 
 that that body should be composed of persons of experience in the civil and 
 military services of each of the Presidencies ; to those persons being added, 
 some retired members of the legal profession, either those who had filled the 
 oflfice of fourth ordinary Memlier of Council, or who had sat upon the bench of 
 some one of the Indian supreme courts, or barristers who had practised there 
 for a certain number of years. 
 
 2830. Would you have that council so formed here, pass regulations for the 
 government of India, or would you have Acts of ParUament for the purpose? 
 — I would give to the body which I have mentioned at home full power to 
 • -0. ;o. H H 3 legislate
 
 246 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir E. Gambler, legislate in as ample a manner, or in a more ample manner, than the Supreme 
 
 ] Council now legislates in Calcutta. 
 
 n April i8,-,3. 2831. Mr. Ellice.] Might not there be difficulty in amending any such Acts 
 
 according- to exigencies which might arise in India ? — 1 think there would be 
 no such difficulty ; the time which now elapses between the introduction of an 
 Act, and its final promulgation, would more than allow for communicating 
 with every part of India. 
 
 -^Z~- Would not occasions arise for local legislation in respect to diiferent 
 parts of India ?— If those occasions arose on their being submitted to the body 
 at home, legislation might take |)lace, and there would be persons in the 
 Council I have mentioned who would be acquainted with the exigencies of the 
 place to which that legislation would be directed, 
 
 283;}. Would not exigencies arise requiring instant legislation upon some 
 occasions r— I hardly think that they could. I know of no instance in which 
 such legislation has taken place in India, except with regard to a departure of 
 the Governor-general from Calcutta. 
 
 i;834. Mr. JJacanlaj/.^ Did you never hear of any instance in which any 
 portion of India was in insurrection, and it was necessary with very great 
 rapidity to pass an Act for the jmrpose of strengthening the hands of the 
 Goverument in that part of the country ?^I do not remember the case ; I 
 can hardly conceive any case of that nature arising, to which the Executive 
 Government might not direct its own powers. 
 
 •-83,]. Supposing there were a regulation actually in force with i-egard to the 
 government of a particular district, and the provisions of that regulation were 
 rendered quite unsuitable to the circumstances by an insurrection there, would 
 not it be necessary that there should be a legislative power to repeal or suspend 
 the regulation?— For such a case, which I think would be a very rare one, 
 provision might be made by giving the Governor-general power to suspend the 
 law for a certain period under particular circumstances. 
 
 2830. Mr. Hmue.] You would consider that as an exception to the general 
 rule V Inch you have laid down 1 — Certainly ; 1 should consider that as an 
 extraordinary case whicli might be provided for in that manner. 
 
 2837. Sir T. H. AJaddock.^ In speaking of the legislative powers of the 
 Legislative Council, you expressed the opinion that on all occasions of the 
 absence of the Governor-general from Calcutta, he should be accompanied by 
 the Members of the Council? — Yes. 
 
 2838. And that he should not have the power of enacting laws excepting when 
 aided Ijy those Members of the Council. Are not you aware that the Governor- 
 geneial now, when absent from the Council, is precluded by law from enacting 
 laws .- — I did not speak of the Governor-general's enacting laws, I spoke of his 
 exercising the executive ca])acity of the Governor-general in Council in his 
 own person alone ; I am aware tluvt, when the Governor-general is absent from 
 Calcutta, all he has the power of doing is giving his assent to any law which 
 has been j^assed in his absence. 
 
 2839. You have expressed an opinion favourable to the amalgamation of the 
 Sudder ('ourt witli tlu' Sui)reme Court ; in case of such an amalgamation, 
 wouk) justice be there administered in the name of the Queen of England ? — 
 Certainly. 
 
 •-'840. Exclusively so? — Certainly. 
 
 2841 . If that were the case, in whose name would you administer justice in 
 the suI)ordinate courts of India? — I think throughout India it should be 
 administered in th(! name of the Queen. 
 
 284.:. Mr. Jhnii^lc.f.] Before that amalgamated court you recommend that 
 all evidence shoidd l)e oral, tliat court being, as far as the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut is concerned, solely a court of appeal ; would not it lead to very great 
 expense and inconvenience if witnesses from very remote parts of the country 
 had to be brought tlicre to be examined? — Certainly; I only meant that to 
 refer to its original jurisdiction. 
 
 2843. You spoke also of there being no sufficient training for native judges ; 
 did you confine that remark to the PresiiU-ncy of Madras, or did you intend it 
 to ai)])Iy generally .' — I intended it to apply generally ; I think the want is felt 
 throughout India. 
 
 ^2844. Ai'e you aware that in Bengal and the North-western Provinces there 
 are very strict examinations of candidates for native judgeships, and that they 
 
 are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TElUUTf )1UES. 247 
 
 are not put upon the list of eandidatos till tliey have passed very severe exami- Sir K. GambUr. 
 nations:— I cainiot speak with rclei-enco to matters in Bcniral. 
 
 2S4.> Is not it the case at Madras, that a great many of the native judges n Apri' '853. 
 are what the judges are in this eountry and in India ; tliat is, raised to the hench 
 from the native vakeels (u- pleaders in a very eonsideral)le proportion? — I think 
 it is highly probable, but I do not know how the fact may be. 
 
 284!). Mr. J. Fitzgerald. ~] Would you consider it right that a knowledge of 
 the English language should be made a test in the case of native appointments 
 to this extent, that, in the event of there being two candidates, the i)reference 
 should be given to the one who knew the English language'- — 1 am not able 
 to form a decided opinion how far that should l)e rc(piired in the conns pre- 
 sided over by native judges. I think that a lsnowlc(lg(^ of English woukl be 
 extremely desirable in the ease of a native, as I think a knowledge of the 
 languages of the district extremely valuable to an European judge. 
 
 2S47. Would not su{;h a test as that be likely to increase the study of the 
 English language among the natives r — Certainly it would ; and it would l)e a 
 test of good education. 
 
 284S. Mr. IIuuic] Have you considered how far the natives could be advan- 
 tageously employed to a greater extent in the administration of justice than 
 they are employed at present ? — I think they could be safely trusted, because 
 I think that it is a characteristic of the natives, of the Hindoos espcciallv, to 
 fill with great fidelity any offices of trust and confidence. I think that their 
 aptness, under projjcr training, would qualify them in time for any situations 
 of a judicial nature. 
 
 2849. You have heard the opinions stated with respect to supplying the bar 
 and the bench in India from the English bar ; what is your opinion upon that 
 subject ?— My opinion is, that it would be better, if judges were wanted to 
 preside in the zillah courts, or to fill the situations of subordinate judges in the 
 Madras Presidency, that the barristers practising in the Supreme Court should 
 be eligible for that purpose, provided they possess the same knowledge of the 
 language or languages of the district which would be required from the civil 
 servants. 
 
 28.50. Supposing the language in which the proceedings in the courts are 
 conducted were changed to the English language instead of the Persian, or 
 the vernacular language, would that make any difference in the opinion you have 
 now expressed ? — iXo ; I think not. 
 
 28.51. Would you fix any number of years for them to practice at the local 
 bar, before they were eligible for those situations ? — I think some years stand- 
 ing at the bar should be required ; perhaps five years standing at the bar, and 
 that they should be obhged to pass an examination in languages ; and upon 
 that, I think, they should be admitted into the civil service upon the footing of 
 having the same rank as civil servants who are about the same age as themselves, 
 ■which I think would give them from five to ten years' standing in the service. 
 
 2852. Mr. Mtwtjlcs.] Would that practice at the bar give a man that know- 
 ledge of the habits and customs and feelings of tlie people in matters of land 
 tenure, and the like, which it is so necessary that he should possess, in order 
 to discharge the duties of a judge in the Mofussil? — 1 think, perhaps, it would 
 not have that effect so perfectly as might be desired ; l)ut I think it is 
 extremely desirable to enlarge the field of choice, and for that reason only I 
 make the suggestion. I think a great improvement might be effected b)- the 
 early training of those wlio are in the civil seiviee. 1 think they should be 
 encouraged to devote more time to the study of jurisprudenc^e, and the funda- 
 mental principles of law, before leaving this country, and that tliey should have 
 a certificate of certain attainments in that branch of their studies ; I think also 
 there should be a school of law at the Presidency, where they should further 
 pursue those studies, and that they shoidd attend the Su]ireme Court for a 
 certain numl)er of years before thej' took any appointment in the Mofussil. 
 
 2853. Mr. Ha r (Huge.] How long, in your opinion, would it take a barrister 
 sent out from England to become possessed of sufficient knowledge to enable 
 him to sit on the judicial bench ? — I think three years would be sufficient. 
 
 28.54. Mr. JJangles.^ You know that Sir Thomas Monro, a great Madras 
 authority, held that no man was f|ualifi('d to be a judge who had not been at 
 collector? — Certainly, a knowledge of the habits of the people is perhaps better 
 acquired in that branch of the service than any other. It is quite consistent 
 
 o. io, H H 4 with
 
 248 MINUTES OF EVIDENC E TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Si. E. Gambier. with what I have recommended ; and after this foundation has been laid, by the 
 
 — parties being well grounded in the principles of law for a certain number of 
 
 11 /ipril 1853. years, the young men might serve in the revenue branch, where they un- 
 doubtedly acquire a great deal of knowledge which would be useful to them 
 afterwards on the bench. 
 
 28.55. You do not concur in the strong opinion which has been expressed, 
 that they are unfit to be judges because they have been for some time in the 
 Revenue Department ? — 1 think in many respects they must acquire knowledge 
 there which is eminently useful to them as judges ; but what I think they are 
 wanting in is a knowledge of the principles of law and jurisprudence. 
 
 2856. Mr. Elliot.^ In proposing to select the judges from among the prac- 
 tising barristers in the Supreme Court, do you contemplate the aboUtion of the 
 civil service, or merely adding those persons to the civil service? — Merely 
 adding them to the civil service. 
 
 2X57. As that would bring a considerable body of persons into the upper 
 ranks of the civil service who had not passed through the lower ranks, would 
 not it, in fact, to a great degree, supersede the juniors of the civil service, and 
 render that service no longer as desirable as it is at present ? Tlie measure 
 certainly must have that effect ; but I think it is so important that judges 
 ))roperly qualified should sit in the different courts throughout the country, that 
 almost every consideration should be sacrificed to that. 
 
 ^(S^S. Do you think the ci^dl service could continue to exist under an ar- 
 rangement of the kind you have proposed? — I think so. I would only make 
 barristers eligible for that purpose in case men were not found in the civil 
 service sufficiently qualified. It is in order to increase the field of choice, not 
 to confine the choice to barristers, by any means. 
 
 2859. With such a contingency in view, do you think barristers would go to 
 India to practice in the Supreme Court, in the hope of succeeding to vacancies 
 occasioned by the incompetency of the civil servants ? — I think it would have 
 the effect of inducing young men to practise at the bar of the Supreme Court. 
 
 2860. .Mr. Hardinge.] How would a barrister sent out from England ac- 
 quire the knowledge of the land tenures of India which it is necessary for him 
 to possess in order to decide cases of that nature ? — I think a bai-rister ap- 
 pointed direct from this country would be under great disadvantages. 
 
 2861. How would you propose that he should receive that kind of training 
 in the Revenue Depai-tment whicli is necessary? — I do not propose that bar- 
 risters should be appointed direct from this country at all, but only that a selec- 
 tion might be made, and that the power of selecting should be given to the 
 local Government of those who are practising in the court. 
 
 2862. Mr. J. Fitzgerald.] Would a barrister practising in the Supreme 
 Court be likely to acquire a sufficient knowledge of the law of land tenures in 
 India? — I see no reason why he should not, except that he may not acquire 
 tlie practical knowledge which is atjquired in tlie revenue branch. 
 
 28t)3. Do you consider that a knowledge of the principles of the law of evi- 
 dence, and the mode of conducting judicial inquiry, is still more important 
 than the knowledge to be obtained in the collector's office ? — I do. 
 
 2864. Mr. Lowe.] You said just now that Sir Lawrence Peel had introduced 
 a n(nv system of pleading at Calcutta ; are not you aware that that was subse- 
 quently negatived ." — I am not aware of it ; I only saw the rules when they 
 were first promulgated, which was a short time before I left India. 
 
 2865. Mr. FA/ire.] Vou do not know by what authority, whether by the 
 Board of ( .'ontrol, or the Court of Directors in this country, that improvement 
 in the mode of procedure in India was arrested? — I do not. 
 
 28r)b. Chairman.] Have you any further observations to ofl'er to the Com- 
 mittee upon the present judicial system in India? — I have mentioned that I 
 think there should be a school of law at each Presidency ; I think there should 
 be law lecturers and evaniiners appointed, and that no servant of the Govern- 
 ment should for t!ie first time beappninted to a judicial situation without having 
 passed an examination, and received a certificate from those examiners ; and 
 I think that it would be also extremely proper, that all persons applying to be 
 admitted as advocates, attorneys, or vakeels, either in the Supreme Court or 
 any other court throughout the country, should be examined, and should receive 
 a certificate of competency from one of those examiners.
 
 SELECT COMMHTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 2^) 
 
 Jovis, 14° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Bariiiir. 
 Ml. Disiiuli. 
 Viscmiiit J ocelyu. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Mr. 11 nine. 
 Ml. U. llildyanl. 
 Mr. MiiCiuilav. 
 Mr. R. H. Ciiv... 
 SirT. 11. Madciock. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Sir R. II. Iiigiis. 
 Mr. IIar(liii<ie. 
 Sir J. W. Ho>-<z. 
 Mr. Vernon i>mitli. 
 Mr. Spooiier. 
 Lord Stiiiilt'V. 
 Mr. E. Edict". 
 Mr. J. Elliot. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., in the Chair. 
 
 Charles Hay Cameron, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 28(")7. Chairvian.'] YOU presented a petition to the House of Commons, c. II. Cameron, 
 which lias been referred to this Committee, the ])rayer of which is that the K»'l- 
 
 propositions and discussions of the Law Commission may he submitted to the " 
 
 consideration of competent judges, who may decide whether the recommcn- H Aprd 1853. 
 dations of the said Commission are or are not fit to be adopted? — I did so. 
 
 2868. You were a member of the Indian Law Commission, and afterwards 
 president of it? — 1 was. 
 
 2869. And fourth member of the Council? — I was. 
 
 2870. You have stated in your petition that no decision has been pronounced, 
 with one exception, upon the various propositions contained in the reports of 
 the Law Commission ; to what do you attribute that ? — I attribute that prin- 
 cipally to the circumstance that the Law Commission was a bod}' appointed by 
 Parliament to take into consideration the whole of the vast subject of Indian 
 law and judicature ; to examine fully into it, and to make reports upon it, with 
 recommendations of such remedial measures as they might thiidv necessary ; 
 and that the Council of India is a body too much occupied with current busi- 
 ness to take into consideration such elaborate reports as it was tbe duty of the 
 Law Commission to make according to the terms of the statute. With regard 
 to the Home authorities, I would rather refer to Mr. Hill's evidence upon that 
 subject, which I have quoted in the ])etition which I had the honour to present 
 to The House ; tl\at seems to me to give an explanation of the sort of lock 
 which there has been in carrvina: into effect the intentions of Parliament bv 
 
 ft CD 
 
 the Law Commission, and the bodies wluch were appointed to revise its pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 2871. You concur in the opinion which Mr. Hill expressed, that the Council 
 of India has too much pressing business before it to occupy itself suthciently 
 with the questions which would by the Act have been referred to the Law 
 Commission ? — 1 think so. 
 
 2872. Did you, while in India, suggest any remedy for that defect in the 
 organisation of the Indian Legislature ? — I did. I suggested that the Law 
 Commission should be made a part of the Legislative Council, their salaries 
 and rank, and everything of that sort, remaining exactl)^ as before ; the sepa- 
 rate duties of the Council of India remaining exactly the same as before, and 
 the separate duties of the Law Commission renuuning as they were before ; 
 that is to say, the preparation of reports, and the investigations which they 
 were to carry on under the statute. But oral discussions upon the propositions 
 of the Law Commission would then have been carried on in the Council, and 
 all the members of the Council would have had an ojjportunity of hearing those 
 
 0.10. I I discussions
 
 250 MLNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C H. CameroK, discussions and taking- a i;art in tbem, which would have been analogous to the 
 
 Esq. conferences upon the ('ode Civile, in which Napoleon himself took so important 
 
 a part. In that way it would have been possible that the Council should 
 
 '14 April 1853. gradually, as those recommendatio' s were being matured, have made them- 
 selves masters of the subject, and been able to pronounce a satisfactory opinion 
 upon them. The minute in which I made that recommendation I now beg to 
 refer to. "* 
 
 287;;. Will you read that minute ? — The date of it is the 30th of March 
 1843: ".My opinions on the subject of the Law Commission differ very 
 materialh from those of Mr. .Amos. For the convenience of those who may 
 have to consider these minutes, I will follow the order adopted by him, though 
 I do not intend to notice all the topics which he has discussed. His first 
 renuirk is, that ' Numerous and protracted avocations for business unconnected 
 with the Commission have withdrawn, and are likely to withdraw, the attention 
 of the Commissioners from its proper duties.' This is true, but if the practice is 
 inexpedient (;ind un(|uestii)nably it may be carried too far) the Government can 
 at any moment correct it, and abstain from giving to the individual members 
 of the Law Commission occupation not connected, or but slightly connected, 
 with the business for which the Commission vias instituted." I may remark, 
 that a great many such occupations had been given to separate Commis- 
 sioners. " Mr. Araos says, ' During the six months immediately preceding 
 Sir Ed\\ard Ryan's de|iarture from India, 1 believe that more work was done by 
 several Law Commissioners in examining these schoolboys (the students of 
 the Hindoo College and other Go\ ernment colleges) than in the business of 
 the Commission ' I cannot say tliat my belief is in accordance with Mr, 
 Amos's ; but however the fact may be, the superintendence of the education of 
 the natives is a matter of such importance, and (from the peculiarities of the 
 people! of so great difficulty, and has, moreover, such a connexion with the 
 judicial system, that in uiy opinion it must always l)e desirable that some members 
 of the Commission (so long as any such body exists) should be members of the 
 Council of Education. From ' these schoolboys,' it must be remembered, the 
 future native judges will probably be sehcted, and it is difficult to say how great 
 an influence for good or for evil their education may have upon the happiness 
 of the people. ' Secondly,' says Mr. Amos, ' I think that the provision 
 for laying the reports of the Conuuission before Parliament is calculated to 
 work prejudicially. It has a tendency to induce Commissioners to frame their 
 reports rather with a view to English readers (^though, in point of fact, these 
 may be a very small number), than to assist the Indian Government. In order 
 to assist that Government, it would seem a desirable course to frame succinct 
 schemes of such general improvements as the Commission felt disposed to 
 recommend, and, in the first instance, to ascertain how far tin- Indian Go\ern- 
 ment was willing to adopt them, and afterwards to complete the details accord- 
 ing to the nio(li!i(!ati(ms of principle which that Government might make ; 
 whereas the notion that the Commissioners are writing for an Engli>h public 
 tends to make them produce elaborate schemes, which tliey may even have 
 groimd for sujjposing are contrary to the opinions and views of the Indian 
 Government, but the comjjosing ol which consumes a Lircat deal of their time. 
 The consequence will often be, that the reports may have very little effect in 
 edifying or influencing the autliorities in England, and they will be laid aside 
 indefinitely by the Government of India.' Now, I conceive it to have been 
 clearly the intention of the Legislature that the Commission should ' produce 
 elaborate schenjcs,' and it seems to me that the intention was a wise one. It 
 is very })robable that the jjrovision lor lajing the reports Ijefore the two 
 Houses of Parliament has contributed to the fulfilment of this intention, and, 
 in my judgment, it has tlius done good. I thiidv that tlie legislation of India 
 and the judicial system is in a state which requires to be remodelled by means 
 of elaliorate schemes, and this is the justification of the expensive apparatus 
 of a Law Commission. It is only necessary to read the Charter Act to see that 
 in framing such schemes as those to which .Mr. Amos objects, the Commis- 
 sioners have not been led astray by the notion that tliey are writing for an 
 Englisli public, but have been simj)ly obeying the exjjress commamls of the 
 Legislature. It is, therefore, against those express commands (rather than 
 against a provision which may ])erhaps have a tendency to produce obedience 
 to themj that Mr. Amos should have directed his censure. It is, however, my 
 
 opinion,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 251 
 
 opinion, that the two ore;ans for legislation in India which were constitutcil by ,' u r:,^.,..„ 
 the Charter Act (the Council of India and the Law Commission) are not Esq. 
 
 adapted to each other, and that so loiif;- as the relation between them coininues 
 
 to be what it now is, the practical benefits expected from the Law Commission 14 April 1853. 
 can hai'dly be realised. The Charter Act directs the Law Commissioners 
 fully to in(]uire into the ' juri-dietion, powers, and rules of the existin;; 
 courts of justice and police establishments in the said territories, and all 
 existing forms of judicial procedure, and into the nature and operation of 
 all laws, whether civil or criminal, written or customary, prevailing and in 
 force in any of the said territories, and whereto any inhabitants of the said 
 territories, whether Europeans or others, are now subject.' The Act further 
 directs them ' from time to time to make reports in which they shall fully 
 set forth the result of their said inquiries, and shall i'ri>m time to time 
 suggest such alterations as may, in their opinion, be beneficially made in 
 the said courts of justice and public establishments, forms of judicial i)ro- 
 cedure, and laws, due regard being had to the distinction of castes, difference 
 of religion, and the manners and opinions prevailing among different races, and 
 in different parts of the said territories.' Such are the elaborate; schemes which 
 the Law Commissioners are directed to produce, and as they have no regular 
 executive duties permanently to distract their attention, they have been able 
 to produce some such schemes, notwithstanding the interruptions which have 
 been alluded to by Mr. Amos. But from the Law Commission these schemes 
 go up to the Council, that is, to a body who have duties of another kind, which 
 are perhaps sufficient to occupy their whole time, but are, at all events, sufficient 
 to occupy so '.;.ueh of it as to leave a remainder quite inadequate to the business 
 of criticising and deciding upon the adoption or rejection of the schemes 
 prepared by the Law Commission. The penal code, and the report upon a 
 lex loci, afford examples of this defect in the present constitution of British 
 India. The penal code was sent up in October 1837, the report upon a lew 
 loci in October 1840. The Council has never come to any decision upon either 
 proposition, nor do I believe that it has been possible for that body to come 
 to a decision based upon adequate consideration of the subjects ; but, besides 
 that, it has not come to a decision, the Council has had recoiu'se to the very 
 natural expedient of collecting opinions from a great number of functionaries. 
 If these opinions upon the reports of the Law Commissioners are to be read and 
 digested with the necessary attention, as well as the reports themselves, then I think 
 it is clear that a decision must now be considered a more remote object than it would 
 have been when the reports were presented, if the Council had then felt themselves 
 in a condition to take them into consideration and pronounce upon them without 
 further extraneous assistance. I apprehend, then, that any code of pr(jcedure, 
 and any code or codes uf substantive law which the Law Commission may 
 propose, will never get beyond the Council, so long as the present arrange- 
 ments remain unaltered. The Jilteration which appears to me to be required 
 for the purpose of obviating this impediment to tlie legislation of India, is to 
 make the Legislative Council consist of the present Council and tlic Lav Com- 
 mission united. The preparation of elaborate schemes, and of disquisitions 
 explaining and justifying them, would still be the peculiar business of the 
 Commissioners ; but the other members of the new Legislative Council would 
 be present at the discussions which take place upon the matter whicli each 
 Commissioner has prepared in his own closet. These discussions would 
 correspond to the conferences on the Code Napoleon, and the memb(>rs of 
 the new Council who are not memi-ers of the Law Commission would, by 
 taking part in them, fit themselves, during the progres of the work, for pro- 
 nouncing a judgment upon it when complete. I can appeal to a partial 
 experience on this point. During the preparation of the penal code (at least 
 during the early stages of it), Sir Edward Ryan and Sir Benjamin Malkin 
 used to meet Mr Macaulav and myself once a week, when we used to state 
 to them what were the questions then under consideration in the Law Com- 
 mission, and debate those questions with them. Sir B- Malkin is no more, 
 but Sir E. Ryan will be able to say whether in this way sufficient insight into 
 the principles and details of a code may be acquired, while it is in progress, 
 to pronounce a sound judgment upon it when finished ; and if the Home 
 authorities should think this scheme of mine for reiih)delling the Legislative 
 Council worthy of att(:'ntion, I would requent that Sir E. Ryan should be con- 
 0.10. I I 2 suited
 
 252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ('. U. Cameron, sulted upon it. All the duties now performed by the Couiidl of India, except 
 I'sq. ' the business of legislation, would, if this scheme were adopted, be performed 
 as they now are, that is to say, by such members of tlie new Council of India 
 14 April 1853. as are not Law Commissioners. If this scheme (or some other having a similar 
 eflfect) is not adopted, then I think the practical utility of the Law Commission 
 will not be commensurate to the expense of it, and, consequently, I should be 
 compelled to rect)uimend the abolition of it. Such abolition 1 should most 
 deeply lament, for it appears to me that British India (at least such parts of it 
 as have been long in the enjoyment of trancpiillity under our rule) is ripe for 
 a tcpod system of law and judicature, and would derive immense benefit from 
 them. One of the things which the Asiatic character most wants in order to 
 bring it up to the European standard, is the feeling that pre-established 
 principles, and not arbitrary discretion, ought to govern the decision of the 
 questions which arise between private persons, and are by them referred to the 
 public authorities. The Supreme ("ourts in India afford examples of a near 
 approach to decision according to pre-establislied principles, but unfortunately 
 the i)rineiples which govern their decisions are nowhere to be found written in 
 a systematic form, and thus made as accessible to the public as possible ; and still 
 more unfortunately their decisions (in consequence of the defects of their proce- 
 dure) turn veryfrequentlyupon points foreign to the real merits of thecontroversy. 
 Systems of substantive law made in the highest degree capable of being known 
 beforehand, by being %vritten in a series of well-arranged propositions, and made 
 apphcable to the affairs of men through a rational system of procedure, are 
 objects which, if attainable at all, are, as I beheve, only attainable by means of 
 a Law Commission incorporated with the Indian Legislature. I have only now 
 to make a remark ujjon Mr. Amos's scheme for attaching the Commission to 
 the Legislative Department, which it will be seen is really a scheme for doing 
 something very different. ' I should apprehend,' he says, 'that it would 
 augment the practical utility of the Commission, and at the same time be 
 a considerable financial saving, if the following arrangements were made ; 
 ari'angements, the expediency of which, it may Ije observed, may be acquiesced 
 in, even by those who at an earlier period, before the Commissioners had ex- 
 pressed collective opinions upon many of the leading branches of Indian juris- 
 jjrudence, might have thought it desirable to retain the full strength of the 
 Connuission according to its original constitution. I would attach the Com- 
 mission to the Legislative Department, and dispense with the Bengal civil ser- 
 vant, the English lawyer, and the secretary. The secretary in the legislative 
 Department will supjjly all that is peculiar to the information or duties to be 
 expected from the Bengal civil servant and secretary, and the legislative 
 memlier of Council will supersede the necessity of appointing an English lawyer 
 to the Commission. Tlie Madras and Bombay memliers will be found very 
 useful, not only in the Legislative Department, but for the purpose of reference 
 and consultation in the other departments, especially whilst there is no iMadras 
 or Bomljay civilian in Council. 1 am persuaded that, by this arrangement the 
 Commission will be found to render much greater assistance to the Indian 
 Government than it has hitlierto done, and its ]n'oceedings will be very much 
 accelerated.' To treat this proposition (as Mr. Amos does) as a reform of the 
 Law Commission seems to me pure fallacy ; it is destroying the Law Commis- 
 sion, and using i)art of its materials for another )nn-i)ose. That Mr. Elliott and. 
 Mr. Borrodaile would render excellent service if attached to the Secretariat in 
 the Legislative Department, is what 1 do not in tlie least doubt. But to call 
 them the Law Connuission, rendering greater assistance to the Indian (iovern- 
 nient than it lias hitherto done, or tlie Law Commission, with its proceedings 
 very much accelerated, seems to me nothing but an abuse of words." 
 
 2S74. When did you suggest that change ? — The minute is dated the 30th 
 of March l«J:i. 
 
 2875. Do you consider that the plan which you then suggested is the proper 
 remedy to he now a])])lied ? — No, I think not now, because the Law Commis- 
 sion having gone through nearly the whole of the Indian judicature, and 
 sketched out a complete system for tlie whole and elaborated a very great 
 jiortion of that sketcli, I think enough matter has now been prepared to 
 enable the subject to be completely settled in this country. What I suggest in 
 the jiravcr of my petition is what I should now substitute for the scheme 
 recommended in this minute of 1843. 
 
 287G. What
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 253 
 
 2876. What is the plan which yoii would sugf>:est r — The phiii which I wouhl C. U. Cnmeron, 
 suggest wouhl he a Comuiission cousistiug, in tlic first jilacc, of (hstiny;iiish('d Esq. 
 English jurists, men who are not only English lawyers, hut who have a — - 
 large acquaintance with ihe general princi))les of jurisprudence, such men, if '4 '^l-f' '853- 
 ])Ossihle, as have considered a great variety of forms of judicature, sucli, for 
 
 instance, as Sir James Stephen, who, at the Colonial UfHce, has had to consider 
 a greater variety of different forms of judicature than any other man in the 
 world. That is the sort of person 1 sliould rcconnucnd in the first ])lace. In 
 the next j)lace, I should reconnnend that the Conunission should consist of 
 retired Indian judges, who are not only, generally speaking, eminent lawyers, 
 but also uKMi tlioroughly acquainted with one very material portion of the system 
 which is to be reformed. 
 
 2877. You mean judges of the Supreme Court ? — Yes ; not that I should feel 
 the least oijjection to the admission of judges of the Sudder Adawlut, if tliere 
 are any in England ; and, lastly, 1 would recommend that there shoidd l)i' some 
 members of the Law Commission, such men, for example, as Mr. Millett and 
 Mr. Macleod, wlio are most eminent civil servants of the P^ast India Coni])any, 
 one from Bengal and the other from Madras, thoroughly conversant with the 
 whole of the Indian portion of the subject, as the judges of the Supreme Court 
 are with the English portion of Indinn judicature. In that way, I think, a 
 Commission might be constituted which would be completely competent to pro- 
 nounce a decision upon all the reconnnendatious of the Law Conunission, and 
 finally to settle the whole law and judicature of India, leaving nothing for the 
 Supreme Council afterwards but the onlinary current business of legislation. 
 
 2878. Of how many members do you think that Commission here should be 
 composed ? — I suppose probably ten members would be quite sufficient. 
 
 2879. Would they all agree, do you think r— I do not suppose they would all 
 absolutely agree ; but I have no doubt they would come to an agreement. That 
 was what we found in the Law Commission ; we did not all agree in the bcffin- 
 ning, but we all came to an agreement. 
 
 2880. How long do you suppose would be the duration of the discussions and 
 studies of that Commission before framing the codes ? — 1 should think the 
 whole work might be done in two years. 
 
 2881. It would then be submitted to the Council in India r — No doubt if the 
 present constitution of the Indian Legislature remains as it is, it should be sub- 
 mitted to the Indian Legislature, and they should exercise a discretion upon it ; 
 because it seeu:s to me to be inconsistent with the constitution of the Indian 
 Legislature as it exists by Act of Parliament, to send orders to it to pass a law 
 or not to pass a law. Though that is strongly my opinion, I should sa)- it was 
 not the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General, and therefore probably I 
 may be wrong ; if I am wrong, there can be no objection to sending out orders 
 to the Legislative Council of India to pass such Acts as the Commission may 
 prepare. My own opinion, however, is, that if the statute remains unchanged 
 the Council of India ought to be consulted, and should exercise a discretion. 
 
 2882. Do you consider that it would be desii-able, if at present the Indian 
 Legislatui-e has a veto, to alter the enactments of the statute so that it should 
 be incumbent upon the Indian Legislature to adopt the codes recommended by 
 the Commission in this country ? — Yes, I think so. I would not say that it 
 should be incumbent upon the Indian Legislature to adojjt them ; the legislation 
 shoukl take place here, and therefore the Indian Legislature would be bound by 
 it ; a great deal might be done by statute. 
 
 2883. You would leave no power to the Indian Government either to alter, 
 or suspend, or delay the application of the codes enacted here ? — No, I rather 
 think not, if the statute is to be altered ; if it remains unaltered, then I think it 
 is involved in it that the Indian Legislature must exi'rcise a discretion upon 
 every Act which it is called on to pass or to reject. 
 
 2884. Would you recommend that the decision of the Commission here 
 should have force in India without the assent or ai)probation of any other body, 
 or would it then be submitted to Parliament r— It should l)e sul)mitted to the 
 Government here, of course, and I should think also to Parliament ; a great deal 
 of it nmst be submitted to Parliament, because it woidd nHpiire a statute. 
 
 288.5. Your idea is, that after the code is prepared by the Commission it 
 should be submitted for approval to the Government, and subsequently sanc- 
 tioned by Parliament here ? — Yes. 
 
 0.10. II 3 2886. That
 
 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEIORE THE 
 
 C.H.Cameron, 'jSSCi. That pi'oceeding you think would be terminated in two years? — 
 Esq- I sliould think so, but it is not an easy point to pronounce a decisive opinion 
 
 on, as I know from my own experience of the Law Commission. 
 
 H •April 1853. 28S7. Will you state, what in your opinion are the principal defects in the 
 
 present system of judicature i-f India, and the remedies which you think 
 desirable ? — The defects ma}' be generally described as consisting of uncertainty 
 and needless diversity, 'i'here is for example a totally different system existing 
 in the three Presidency towns and in the Mofussil ; that is to say, all over the 
 country beyond the Presidency towns. That I believe is a state of law which is 
 unexampled ; I do not know that any other country has such a state of things 
 existing in it as that, or ever had, except Ceylon, which was a copy of the pre- 
 sent Indian judicature, where the evil has been remedied in the way I have 
 mentioned, at my own suggestion. Before I went to India, I was a Com- 
 missioner for the same purpose in Ceylon, and I sijggested that the system 
 should be altered, nnd the Supreme Court made an appellate and superintend- 
 ing court over the whole judicature of the country. It has been working now 
 for the last 20 years very successfully. The same sort of thing I should re- 
 coumiend in India, only there being there a high Company's court called the 
 Sudd(>r Adawlut, I should recommend that the judges of the Supreme Court 
 should be united with the judges of the Sudder Court, forming one great court 
 of appeal and universal superintendence over each Presidency. I should 
 recommend also, that the distinction between Queen's courts and Company's 
 courts should be entirely abolished, i think every court in India should be 
 a court of the Q-ueen, because the Queen is the fountain of honour and justice 
 throughout the whole of the British dominions. I think also every court should 
 be a court of the Company, supposing the present constitution to continue, 
 because the Company is the agent to whom the Queen and Parliament have 
 delegated the sovereignty of India. I would therefore make no distinction 
 between the courts in that res])ect ; the distinctions which exist between them 
 now are jjroductive of considerable mischief. 
 
 2888. Sir C. Wood.'] The High Court of Appeal which you mentioned, it 
 would i3e necessary to constitute by Act of Parliament in this country, would 
 not it? — It would not be absolutely necessary, because the Legislature of 
 India has power, with the previous sanction of the Home authorities, accord- 
 ing to the statute as it now exists, to abolish the Queen's courts and to set up 
 other courts. I know that some of the judges of the Supreme Courts think 
 that, notwithstanding the power given in the statute, the Legislature of India 
 cannot abolish the Queen's courts, because they consider them to be part of 
 the original constitution of the Indian Government, which is supposed to be 
 saved from the (i],erations of the Council of India ; but that is not my opinion. 
 1 think it is quite clear from the 46lh section of the statute that they may ; 
 that enacts that the Council of India shall not abolish the Supreme Court, 
 without j)revious sanction, which imi)lies tliat with it, they may do so. 
 
 2889. Clialnnan.] The proceedings in this new court would be in English? 
 — Yes ; tlie evidence must be in the language of the \\itnesses, with an inter- 
 pretation, but the records would be in English. 
 
 28go. Should you propose to introduce juries into that court ?- I should not 
 introduce juries according to the English system. The ('ommittee is aware 
 that juries are now used in tlie Supreme Court in criminal cases. Perhaps 
 Englishmen would not like the abolition of tiiat system, but i should be dis- 
 posed to abolish it as it now exists, and introduce juries whose verdicts might 
 be overruled l)y the judge. 
 
 2891. Vour idea would be to introduce juries, not requiring unanimity from 
 them r — I would not require unanimity, and I should allow the judge to set 
 aside the venlict at once, upon his own authority. 
 
 2S92. Allowing, as is the case in England, to the judge the power to charge 
 the jury ? — V'es, calling upon him to charge the jury, to sum up the evidence 
 to them, explain the law, and take tlicir opinions. 
 
 2S(;3. J)o you Ixlieve a nati\t' jury would be much guided by the opinion of 
 the judge?— 1 think they would be very much. I think it would be desirable 
 that they should he guided l)y the opinion of the judg.'. I think the opinion 
 of the judge is, generally speaking, tin; better opinion of the two, which is the 
 reason why I would give a power to the judge to set aside the verdict. 
 
 2804. It has been stated in evidence before this Committee, that the natives 
 
 would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEKKI TORIES. 255 
 
 would be disposed to give a verdict according to the intimation of the opinion c. H. Cameron 
 of the judge, and not to the exercise of their own discriminiition ?— 1 think R«q- 
 
 tliere is danger of tliat, but I tliink tliat as they acquired the haltit of sittin;,-- as " 
 
 jurymen, and hearing cases discussed before them, the judge taking care to H April 1853. 
 treat tliem wilh great respect, and intimating that it was their real opinion he 
 wauled, and not an echo of his own, that mischief would be cured. 
 
 •i'^O.'j. Mr. /. El/iot.] That objection would not apply so much to juries in 
 Calcutta, as to juries in the Mofussil. woidd it"- -it would not, of course, apply 
 so much to a jury whose verdict is binding. 
 
 •28()(i. In Calcutta you would have more chance of obtaining a real opinion 
 from the natives than you would from natives selected in the Mofussil, would 
 not you ? — Undoubtedly, and that sanu> S])irit which would give you a 
 better chance in Calcutta now, is gradually spreading from Calcutta into the 
 Mofussil by the force of our English education. 
 
 281)7. Chainnan.] Would you leave the minor courts as they are, or what 
 change would you recommend to in* introduced into them r- -The Law Commi.s- 
 sion recomuiended the establishment of a subordinate civil court at Calcutta ; 
 that subordinate civil court we intended as a model for all the subordinate 
 judicatures of the country ; the description of it is to be found in our own 
 reports. It was a court which was to administer the English law, being in the 
 Presidency, but the Mahoniedan and the Hindoo law also, as the Supreme 
 Court now does ; it was to administer both law and equity ; it was to do 
 complete justice in every case which came before it ; not to turn a suit over 
 from one court to another, but to do complete justice in every case coming 
 before it. This court we intended as a model for all the courts of the country, 
 and the system of pleading which we should have introduced into that court 
 we intended to be the system of pleading to be adopted throughout the 
 country ; that is to say, oral pleading, the parties theuiselves, wliere there is no 
 particular objection, appearing before the judge and stating their case, from 
 ■which the judge would draw up the ])leadings and frame the issues. \Miere 
 there is some particular objection, such as where there is a native of high rank 
 who objects to appear in a court of justice, we should require him to send an 
 agent authorised to state his case, by whose statements he would consent to 
 be bound. 
 
 2808. Would you admit native judges to preside in those courts": — Yes; 
 I would gradually admit nati\ e judges to sit in all courts : in the higiiest courts 
 as well as in the nthers. I do not know that there is any native now fit to sit in 
 that high court, the College of Justice, as the Law Commission called it by way 
 of distinction, bnt I have no doubt there will be ultimately. 
 
 jc^Qi). Is it your idea tliat all the judges of the Supreme Court should be 
 appointed by the Crown "-—Yes, I think they should he ap])ointed by the 
 Crown. I do not see any objection to the judges of both the Supreme ( ourt 
 and the Sudder Court being appointed as they are now. As I have said, I 
 would have everv court a court of the Queen and a court of the Company, 
 there being no distinction between one court and another in tliat respect. 
 Every zillah court ! would have a court of the Uueen and of the Company, 
 and the sessions courts in the Aiofussil. Those courts are considered by the 
 Supreme Court only as courts of a corporation, not a> courts of universal juris- 
 diction, but as courts of an exceptional jurisdiction set up by a corporation ; 
 whereas the Queen's courts are considered courts of universal jurisdiction. In 
 consequence of that, a case arose, when I was in India, of this kind : a Euro- 
 pean in the xMofussil was accused of murder ; the magistrate connuitted him 
 for trial by the sessions court ; the sessions judge, finding he had a European 
 name and >i)oke English, inquired into hi'^ parentage, and Ibuiid that to all 
 appearance he was really a British subject; then the sessions judge and the 
 magistrate entertained doubts whether they had jurisdiction. Now, if those 
 courts were courts of the Queen, as I would make them, they would have 
 general jurisdiction, an<l then anybody excepted from their jurisdiction would 
 be bound to plead, and show the exception. But if they are courts of a corpo- 
 ration, they are bound not to exceed their jurisdiction; and whether the 
 ol)jection is taken !)y a party or not, they must take care that they do not go 
 beyond the limits of their own jurisdiction, and must refuse therefore to try 
 a man if they have reason to suppose that he is exempted from their juris- 
 diction. That is the sort of distinction whicii exists between a court which is 
 
 0.10. 1 I 4 a Queen's
 
 256 ML\UTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. H. Camcton, a Queen's court and one which is not ; and that I would entirely do away with. 
 Esq- I would say that every zillah court and every sessions court should be a court 
 
 ~~ .. both of the Queen and of the Company. 
 
 "* 2900. Are you to be understood that your idea is that this Supreme Court, 
 
 formed by a union of the present Supreme Court and the Sudder Court, should 
 be jnosided over by judges appointed by the Crown, and that the judges of the 
 inferior courts should be appointed as they now are by the Company ? — I do 
 not say that the Supreme Court should consist only of judges appointed by 
 the Crown ; I say that it should consist partly of judges appointed by the 
 Crown, and partly of judges appointed by the Company. I do not know that 
 that is what I should have invented, if I had had to invent, but finding the 
 Supreme Court and the Sudder Court now existing and furnishing,- very good 
 materials for such a high court, I would compose the high court in that 
 manner. 
 
 2i)oi. Sir C. fVood.] If the chief justice and a certain number of judges were 
 appointed by the Crown here, and the remainder by the Governor-general on 
 the spot, as the Sudder judges are now appointed, that would effect a constitu- 
 tion of the court such as you contemplate I — Yes. 
 
 2902. Beyond that, you would give to the courts throughout the country 
 jurisdiction over all persons, whether Englishmen or natives ? — Yes. 
 
 2903. C/iairma7i.] Are there any other suggestions which you wish to make ? 
 — I was going to refer to the diversities existing in the penal law. In the 
 Presidencies you have the English penal law unreformed, and requiring a good 
 deal of reform. In the IMofussil you have, in Bengal and Madras, what was origi- 
 nally the Mahomedan law, and which still is, to some extent, the Mahomedan 
 law with regard to crimes of a treasonable nature, breaches of allegiance. 
 The Government of India, upon the occasion of an offence of that kind being 
 committed near Calcutta, were informed by the judge of the 24 Pergunnas 
 who would have had to try the offender, that he could administer nothing but 
 the Mahomedan law as modified by the Regulations. In this respect that law 
 is not modified by the Regulations, and consequently the offender could not 
 have been convicted, because the Mahomedan law says that no allegiance is 
 due to any one who is not a Mussulman, and as the Queen is not a Mussul- 
 man, no punishment could have been inflicted. I held that a different law 
 existed, but, of course, I could not control the opinion of the judge. I held, 
 that when any offence affecting the dominion of the Queen is committed in a 
 territory which has been ceded to the Crown of England, the jus coronce of 
 England becomes the jus coronee of that country. I think that the law which 
 regulates the duty of allegiance as regards the subjects of the Crown, is neces- 
 sarily the law of England in every English dominion, whether any statute has 
 been passed to that effect, or any treaty containing provisions to that effect has 
 been entered into or not. However, the judge told the Government that he 
 could only administer the Mahomedan law, and that, according to the Maho- 
 medan law, he coidd not punish that man. That, I think, is a great defect, 
 which still exists ; that there is a mass of Mahomedanism uneradicated from 
 the penal law of the Mofussil. 
 
 2()04. Did the man remain unpunished in consequence? — Yes, I believe the 
 criminal remained unpunished ; I do not think he was ever taken up. 
 
 290.5. Mr. Ilume.^ In what districts in Bengal do those diversities of 
 practice exist? — I was not speaking of a diversity of practice in Bengal ; I 
 was speaking of a diversity of i)ractice between the Presidencies and the 
 Mofussil. 
 
 2906. Does every Mofussil differ from the Presidencies ? — Every Mofussil 
 differs from the Presidencies, but not always in the same way ; I have been 
 speaking of the penal law in the Bengal and in the Madras Presidencies. 
 The penal law at Bombay is different again ; there they have; a code whieli is 
 a considerable improvement, I think, upon the Mahomedan law, but still it has 
 many defects; those the Law Commission jiroposed to remedy by a universal 
 pen^l code, which is j)rei)ared and fully ready for enact nient. Upon that sub- 
 ject 1 should be gl.'id if the Committee will permit me to read a jiassage from 
 the report of Mr. Eliott and myself, who were directed by the Government of 
 India to report upon all the suggestions and criticisms which hud been made 
 upon tlie penal code. My object in reading it is this: I observe in Mr. Hill's 
 evidence given before the House of Lords last Session, he being a witness of 
 
 great
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN Ti: RIUTORIES. 257 
 
 great v\ cii^ht, and liaving grt'iit knowledge of the subject, lie, from a lapse of C- H. Cameron, 
 memory no doubr, has stated that Mr. Elliott and myself, in this report, did Esq. 
 
 not give any opinion upon the i^eneral merits of the code. That is entirelv a — 
 
 mistake; we did give an ojnnion upon the general merits of the code. 'J he '4 •'^iinl 1853- 
 date of this, which is our second report, is the '24th of .lune lSt7. \Ve ])re.sented 
 a first report, in which we examined the earlier chapters of the penal code, and 
 pronounced an ojjinion decidedly in its favour, and recommending its adoption. 
 We did the same with regard to the chapters we had examined in this 
 second report, and we coiuluded thus : " Should tlie Covernment, on the whole, 
 concur in the judgment we have ex])ressed as the result of a very searching 
 examination of the penal code in all its parts, and in our general estimate 
 of it as a, body of law, in a ])ractical view, we would beg very earnestly to 
 recommend the enactment of it for all the territories subject to the Ciovern- 
 ment of the East India Company, except what is c(nnprised within the local 
 limits of the criminal jurisdiction of the courts established by Her Majesty's 
 Charter. The strange anomaly in the jurisprudential condition of British India, 
 which (!onsii:ts in the three ca))ital cities having systems of law different from 
 those of the countries of which they are the capitals, cannot, wv imagine, be 
 permitted to exist much longer. The year 18.^4 will ]n'obal)ly put an end to it, 
 if it should be permitted to endure till that epoch ; but the question arises, 
 should the assimilation be bi'ought about by extending the law of the Presiden- 
 cies over India, or by extending the law of India over the Presidencies, or by 
 an amalgamation of the two ? In our opinion, if the penal law of India consists 
 of this code, and the civil law of India consists of portions of the Hindoo and 
 Mahomedan law, and that sjstem of English law which our Commission have 
 recommended as the lex loci, which may be described as the English system of 
 rules for accomplishing the ends of universal jurisprudence, there can be no 
 doubt that these laws should be exti-nded over the Presidencies in preference to 
 either of the other schemes ; l)ut at the present moment we do not recommend 
 the enactment of this code for the Presidencies, unless the judges of any of the 
 Supreme Courts should express a wish to that effect. We do not advise the 
 general repeal of the penal laws now existing in the teiritories for which we 
 have recommended the enactment of the code ; we think it will be more 
 expedient to provide only that no man shall be tried or punished (excejjt by a 
 court martial) for any facts which constitute any offence defined in the code, 
 otherwise than according to its provisions. It is possible that a lew actions 
 which are punishable by some existing law, and which the Legislature would 
 not desire to exempt, may have been omitted from the code ; and in addition 
 to this consideration, it appears to us that actions which have been made penal 
 on special temporary grounds ought not to be included in a general penal code 
 intended to take its place amongst the permanent institutions of the country. 
 The law, for example, winch ju'events the natives of India, of the labouring 
 classes, from exercising the ordinary right of freemen by contracting to carry 
 their labour to any market which may seem to them advantageous, thougn it 
 may be a useful and necessary law while a large part of the population is in a 
 state of ignorance which unfits it for the discreet exercise of such a right, is 
 yet obviously a law marked out for abolition when advancing civilisation 
 shall have rendered it unnecessary, and conse([uently vexatious ; and such a law 
 should not, we think, be suffered to intrude into a code intended to endure, 
 we will not say for ever, but until more ample experience and the reflec- 
 tions of jurists and statesmen may bring to light new principles more effectual 
 for the prevention of crime. Any existing penal law not virtually superseded by 
 the code which the Legislature does not api)rove of ought, in our view, to be 
 specifically repealed. If the Legislature adoi)ts our recommendation to enact 
 the code, we beg to point out the expediency of immediately making it a subject 
 of study in the Government colleges, and of requesting the Council of Education 
 to introduce questions framed upon its provisions, and upon the notes api)"nde(l 
 to it, into the examinations for carrying into effect Lord Ilanlinge's resolution 
 of 10th October 1844. It is not the least of the many advantages of a penal 
 code ol which the principles are purely rational, and of course always consistent 
 with each other, that a student may become thoroughly master of it without 
 the aid of any extrinsic learning. The English criminal law cannot be fully 
 understood without a considerable share of historical and antiquarian know- 
 ledge. Knowledge of that kind is no doubt an elegant and even a useful accom 
 0.10. K K plishraent ;
 
 258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. H. Cameron, pHshment ; but it is no more necessary to the comprehension of a penal 
 ^^- law founded solely on principles of morality and jurisprudence, than an 
 
 . .. o acquaintance with the biography of Euclid is necessary to the comprehension 
 
 of the problems and theorems of geometry. The study of the code »ill require 
 no such foreign illustration, and will on this account, and also on account of 
 its systematic form, be a task incomparal)ly easier than the study of the 
 criminal law administered by the Supreme Court ; and the consequence will be, 
 that in a few years the penal law of India will be faniiliarl}' known to a great 
 number of young men of the middle classes, who, besides furnishing recruits 
 to the judicial service, will constitute a public prepared to criticise the proceed- 
 ings of the criminal courts in a fair and enlightened spirit." fhe (Committee 
 will see that that is a very strong recommendation. 
 
 21107. Do you still abide by that opinion given so decidedly on the 24th of 
 June 1847, or have you seen any reason to alter your opinion, and, if so, to 
 what extent.' — I abide entirely by that opinion, only I think we are now pre- 
 pared to extend the code to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, which I then 
 said we were not prepared to do ; but 1 presumed that by the year 1854 the 
 necessary change would be made, and it could be introduced. I now think 
 that the change should be made, and that the code should be the universal law 
 of India. 
 
 2008. Sir C. Wood.^ In that case you would noc think it necessary to have a 
 separate court for the administration of the English law even within the Pre- 
 sidency towns : — No. 
 
 2909. Mr. Hume] When was that penal code introduced at Bombay? — I 
 think it was in 182"; it was during Mr. Elphinstnne's (iovernment. I have 
 hitlierto spoken of diversities in the criminal law ; I will now advert to the civil 
 law. You have in the Presidencies the unreformed English law, and the 
 Hindoo and Mahomedan law. In the Mofussil you have nothing but the 
 Hindoo and the Mahomedan law administered to Hindoos and Mahomedans, 
 modified by equity and good conscience, and with regard to all other persons 
 you have no law at all. When cases iu which persons not Hindoos or Malio- 
 medans are parties come before the Mofussil courts, the courts experience great 
 difficulty ; they endeavour to find out what the law of the country to which the 
 man belongs is. With regard to a Frenchman, they ask the opinion of the Avocat 
 de L'Emjjert ur at Chandernagore as to what would be the French law applicable 
 to such a case, and they endeavour to administer it. With regard to East Indians, 
 they not being entitled to the law administered in the Supreme Court, wliich 
 is the English law, are really entitled to no law at all ; there is no system which 
 can be applied to them. The case is the same with respect to the Armenians. 
 The Aiofussil courts, when Armenian cases have come l^efore them, have 
 endeavoured to fiml out something about the Armenian law, and two verj' old 
 codes were heard of; they were never seen, but they have been heard of, and 
 evidence has been given I'egarding their contents, and then the case has been 
 decided in that manner, 'i'his is, of course, a state of tilings which ought not 
 to be suffered to exist. It would be remedied by the proposition of the Law 
 Conunis^ion as to the lev loci, which was to consist of such rules of English law 
 as arc founded on reason only; not such rules as are derived to us historically i)y 
 reason of our feudal origin, and the system of tenure and conveyancing which 
 results from that ; but such rules, and they are very numerous, as are founded 
 on reason only. So much of the English law codified would constitute the 
 lex loci of the Mofussil, to be adnnnistered to everybodj' who is not a Hindoo 
 or a Maliomcdan. We recommended also that the Hindoo and tiie Mahome- 
 dan law should be codified, which tliey very much need, for they are in a state 
 of extreme uncertainty. I think Sir William Macnaghten, who is the great 
 English authority on the subject, says, '' You may always get an opinion from a 
 very competent man on either side of any qiu^stiou of Hindoo law." Those 
 three codes we proposed at once to enact for the Mofussil, and now I should 
 say, if we obtained this proposed court, the same law should be the law of the 
 Presidency. 
 
 2910. Does that ap])lv equally to Madras and Bombay? — Yes. Another 
 diversity which exists is, that in the Presidencies there are no stamps upon 
 legal proceedings; in the Mofussil there ace a great many ; it is a very heavy 
 burden, and I think a very pernicious one. That is a question which is com- 
 plicated, of course, with revenue considerations, and I do not know, therefore, 
 
 when
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEF?RIT()RIES. 259 
 
 when it may be possible to abolish the stamps in the Mofussil, but as soon as c. H. Cameron, 
 financial considerations will penuit, I should very strongly reeommend, and the Ewj. 
 
 Law Commission very stronirly reeomiuended that they should l)c abolished. 
 
 The whole queistion of the iinpediinents to justice of that kind, stamps and '"* ^P"' '^^^^ 
 institution fees, was considered by the Law Connnission very fully in the report 
 which they presented to the (Government in November 1838. Thiit report has 
 never been ])rinted nor laid before I'arliamnu, and I slioidd be glad that it 
 should be printed. 
 
 291 1. What was the title of that re))ort r- It had no title, but the subject of 
 it was the institution fee in Mysore. Litigation Iiad grown to a very great extent 
 in Mysore, and General ( ubbon was driven to recommend that that litigation 
 should he checked by an institution fee. This proposition of his, witli the 
 reasons hy wdiich he justified it, was submitted by Lord Auckland to the Law 
 Commission. The Law Commission entered into an elaborate examination of 
 the whole questicm, coming to the decision that no such fee should be insti- 
 tuted, and pointing out the way in which thc^y thought that vexatious litigation 
 should be counteracted. That report had the singular good fortune of con- 
 vincing General L'ubbon himself. 
 
 2912. What was the date of that recommendation? — The 9th of November 
 1828. 
 
 2913. Mr. Mdcmddj/ 1 Was your recommendation complied with- — Cer- 
 tainly ; the recommendation that the institution fee should not be established 
 
 was complied with, and I believe the rest of our recommendations were com- . 
 
 plied with, — I mean as to the proper mode of repressing the vexatious litigation, — 
 but I am not quite certain about that. I know, however, that General Cubbon 
 admitted that the arguments were irresistible, which I thought was exceed- 
 ingly creditable to him. 
 
 2914. Mr. J. Elliot ] What was the mode you proposed of repressing litiga- 
 tion ? — The mode which we proposed was fining the party who had instituted a 
 vexatious suit, after it was discovered to be vexatious by the trial of the case. 
 
 2915. Sir C. Wood.] Are you aware whether your proposal, when adopted, 
 answered its purpose ? — I believe it has answered its purpose very fully. General 
 Cubbon has said that it does so. 
 
 2916. Mr. Macaulai/.] You never heard afterwards any renewed complaints 
 of excessive litigation in the .Mysore, did you? -No. 
 
 2917. Chairman.'] Will you proceed with any other observations which you 
 have to make on this subject ? — One other diversity only I was about to men- 
 tion, which is, that the periods of limitation in the Presidencies are all limita- 
 tions belonging to the English law ; twenty years for the recovery of land by 
 ejectment, and so on. In the Mofussil, the Hindoo law, I think, had a limita- 
 tion of twenty years. The Mahomedan law books contained no limitation ; but 
 I believe the limitation of twelve years, which is now the established limitation 
 in the Mofussil, must liave been derived from the practice of the Mahomedan 
 courts. I hardly know how else that period was fixed on. This subject early 
 came under the notice of the Law Commission, and they presented a report, in 
 which they recommended that the period adopted in the Mofussil should be 
 adopted for the whole of India, for the Presidencies as well as for the Mofussil. 
 That was fully assented to by Sir Lawrence Peel and Sir Henry Seton ; but, like 
 all other emanations from the Law Commission, it ended in nothing. 
 
 2918. Sir T. U. Maddoclx.] Was it objected to? I do not now recollect any 
 objection to it ; 1 only know that no change took place. 
 
 2910. Chairman. \ You mentioned a case of grievance of the Armenians ; are 
 they a numerous body in India? Yes, they are a numerous body ; but there 
 are no statistics on the subject, and I cannot say wliat their number is ; they are 
 a numerous body, and a very respectable and opulent body. They themselves 
 feel the grievance, for they sent home a petition to Sir Edward Ryan and 
 myself, requesting us to get it presented to the two Houses of Parliament. Lord 
 Campbell was so good as to present it for us to the House of Lords, and some 
 Member of the Lower House is about to present it to the House of Commons. 
 
 2920. Are not they principally resident in the Presidencies, and subject to the 
 law there ? — No, I think they are generally resident near the Presidencies, l)ut 
 not in them. 
 
 . 2921. Mr. Alacaulay.] Some of them are considerable landowners, are not 
 0.10. K K 2 they? —
 
 26o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. H. Cviinoii, they? — Yes; those who transact their bu?me«s in the Presidencies, I think. 
 Est. mostly hve in the Mofussil. 
 
 — . 2Q-29.. Sir 7'. //. Maddoch.'] In case it should be resolved to adopt the English 
 
 14 April 1853. 1^^^.^ jjj ^jjp cases wliich you have described, where there is no law, would you 
 adopt the English law in its present imperfect state, or would you prefer to 
 wait till it could be codified r — If 1 were quite certain of getting it introduced 
 when it is codified 1 should prefer to wait, but the ditheulty I found in India was, 
 that if we lost an opportunity of legislating we very possibly lost it for ever ; 
 and therefore I was very anxious, and drew up an Act to that effect, that the 
 English law should be introduced in general terms under the ordinary designa- 
 tion, so much of the Enghsh law as is adapted to the circumstances of the coun- 
 tr}-, but with some positive exceptions ; the exception of tenure and all the 
 feudalism of the English law. Thei'e w^as this important modification also, that 
 all succession to ])roperty ah iiitcstato should in all cases be regulated by the prin- 
 ciple of the Statute of Distributions, and not by the English law of real property. 
 ^^ith those provisions, I think it would be very safe to introduce it at once, though 
 of course it would be much more easy to administer when you had it in the 
 form of a code ; and if I could have been certain that if we had waited till the 
 code was di-awn we should get it passed, I should not have proposed to enact 
 it in that form, but I felt very great doubts, which the result has fully justified, 
 that we should lose the opportunity if we did not seize it on its presenting 
 itself. Lord Jriardinge was of the same opinion, and therefore we read the Act 
 a first time ; however, orders came from home not to pass any such Act 
 without previous sanction. 
 
 2()J3. You have stated that, in your opinion, if such a legislative body were 
 formed in England for the purpose of framing- and codifying laws for India, 
 you imagine two years would be a sufficient period for them to accomplish the 
 work entrusted to them ; would not you prefer to wait two years before you 
 introduced the English law in its present imperfect state into India at all r — 
 I would prefer to do so ; but I think even to introduce it in its present imper- 
 fect state, — 1 do not mean without the modifications contained in my Act, but 
 with the modifications contained in my Act, — would be a very great improvement 
 upon the existing state of things in the Mofussil, though not so great an im- 
 provement as the same law reduced into the form of a code would be. 
 
 2024. If that legislative body which you have suggested were formed in 
 England, do not you suppose that the Minister of the Crown would send out 
 the laws wliich had been framed in this country to be enforced in India without 
 consulting the Governor-general and the other high authorities there ? — No, 
 1 think the Governor-general aiul other high authorities may very properly 
 be consulted. 
 
 2(}2/5. Then very considerable delay would arise before the opinions of the 
 Governor-general and the Governor and Councils could be taken on the subject? 
 — A considerable time must elapse no doubt. 
 
 2926. Their opinions might lead to some modifications of the results wdiich 
 had been come to b}' the legislative body in England? — It might possibly 
 be so. 
 
 2927. You have stated an opinion that the appellate court to be formed as 
 you propose in India might conveniently consist of those judges who are now 
 in office there in the Uueen's courts and in the Sudder courts, because they 
 are a machinery at hand for the ])urpose ; have you taken into consideration 
 how the future api)ointment of those judges should be made ? All the judges in 
 India except the judges of the Sujjreme Court, who are now appointed by the 
 Crown, are a])pointed by the Governors of the respective divisions of India ; 
 would you propose that all those judges hereafter should be appointed by the 
 Governor- general and the Governors of the subordinate Prc^sidencies, or, as 
 justice is to be administered in the Queen's name, \^o^dd you have the warrant 
 of aj)j)ointment of all those judges, both those which are called Queen's judges 
 and those which are called (,'om])any's judges, issued in the name of the Queen? 
 • — As at present Jidvised, I am (lisj)osed to think the ajipointments should be as 
 they are now, that the Supreme Court judges should be api)ointed by the 
 Crown, and the Sudder judges, or that portion of the new court which is to 
 consist of Comjjany's judges, should be appointed as the Sudder judges are now, 
 by their res])ective govennnents. 
 
 29 28. How would you distinguish one from the other when you had formed 
 
 one
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURITORIES. 261 
 
 one amalgamated court ; there would then be no longer any distinction, would c If Canenn, 
 there ? — There would he no other distinction but that of ai)])ointinent. Ks"! 
 
 202(). You would limit the number to be appointed by the Crown and the 
 number to be appointed by the Governor-general "?— Yes. '^ ^P"' '^^3- 
 
 2930. Mr. Hume.] Do not the judges take rank in tlu^ (U)urts by seniority t 
 — I would have a Chief Justice, who should be superior to all the rest of the 
 
 court ; there would be a great deal to do in the way of the distribution of the 
 business which came up ; the Chief Justice should be the person who should 
 exercise that authority. 
 
 2931. Mr. A/dctmldi/.] Would you have the Chief Justice always one of the 
 judges a])pointed by the Crown ? — -Yes, I would ; I think it is hardly likely that 
 you would get a jurist of sufficient eminence from the Company's service to be 
 placed at the very head of the whole of tlu^ judicature of the country. 
 
 2932. Sir 7'. //. Mdddoch.] As ;it present existing, the judges of the Supreme 
 Court hold a certain rank, whereas the judges of the Sudder Court have no 
 rank at all, cxcejjt such rank as may depend upon their seniority of standing in 
 the service ; is not that the case 'I — I think that is not so ; I think the Sudder 
 judges have a rank. 
 
 2933. Mr. Macauhy.'] Has not there been a late order or regulation changing 
 the precedence? — I think there has; I think the Sudder judges have rank and 
 precedence. 
 
 2934. Sir T. H. Jlfaddock.] The object of my question was to ascertain 
 vihether you would leave any distinction of rank after the amalgamation, or 
 whether, with the exception of the Chief Justice, you would place the judges on 
 an equality in point of rank, whether their appointment came from the Governor 
 or from the Crown ? — I cannot say that that is a point which I have considered ; 
 being asked the question, 1 do not see any reason why they should not rank 
 according to the dates of their commissions, with the exception of the Chief 
 Justice. 
 
 2935. Mr. Hume] You have mentioned having prepared an Act for the 
 introduction of the English law into India ; in what year was that ? — In the 
 year 1840. 
 
 2936. Did you intend that that Act should apply to all India r — To all 
 British India. 
 
 2937. Have you considered whether the same law should apply to Prince of 
 Wales Island, or any of the other dependencies ? — In Prince of Wales Island 
 the English law is already the law. With regard to such places as Scinde and 
 the Punjaub, 1 would not at once introduce any of this law. Probably con- 
 siderable time must elapse, and the inhabitants of those provinces must become 
 a good deal more civilised, before any regular system can be introduced. 
 
 2938. You propose to introduce it with moditications, some of which you 
 have stated to the Committee. Will it not be requisite again to reconsider 
 whether any other and further modifications could be made with advantage r — 
 Certainly ; 1 have stated that what I proposed was, that a code of English law 
 should be drawn up, and in that code all moditications thought desirable would 
 be made. 
 
 -939- The object of the Act was to carry out the code which you proj)osed 
 to have established? — What we proposed was, that the English law should be 
 at once introduced in general terms, with certain specified modifications, to be 
 thereafter codified ; that proposition, as I have stated, was approved by the 
 judges of the Supreme Court, some of whom were so good as to offer to co- 
 operate with me in drawing up the code which was to be framed. 
 
 2940. That opinion you hold at the present time ? — That opinion I hold at 
 this moment. 
 
 2941. Have you considered whether that law, supposing it to apply to the 
 three Presidencies, might be extended to Hurmah?— No, 1 cannot sa}- that 
 I have ; If any portion of Burmah now belongs to us, I should ho])e that in time 
 it will become so far civilised as to be capable of being put uiuler the same 
 system as the rest of British India. 
 
 2942. Mr. Mattgle.s.] You spoke of the Hindoo law being the law of the 
 Mofussil courts. Is it not the fact that it has been so much modified by the 
 regidations and by the practice of the courts, that it has resolved itself into a 
 law of equity and good conscience, and hits almost entirely lost its identity as 
 the Hindoo law ? — With respect to the penal law, there is no Hindoo penal 
 
 0.10. K K 3 law
 
 262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. H. Cameron, law administered. The Mahoraedan penal law has lost much of its identity, 
 Esq. l)ut it retains it, as I have already stated, in respect to questions affecting the 
 
 ~ Tr~^ dominion of the country. 
 H P""' 1 53- -21)43. Is "ot it the case that the civil law contained in the regulations of 
 
 the Company places the Government and its subjects upon a footing of perfect 
 equality in all the courts in all imaginable cases ? — Quite so, I think. 
 2944. Both i-evenue and otherwise r — As far as I know. 
 
 •294.5. Is not that a great superiority over the English law as existing in this 
 country ? — Yes, I should think that it is ; I think, however, there are means of 
 getting justice in England, though they are not the same direct and obvious 
 means which apply to the Mofussil of India. 
 
 2946. Do you think there are always in this country means of obtaining re- 
 dress ; for example, for an undue seizm'e of goods by a custom-house officer 
 as being smuggled goods, which turn out eventually to have paid duty, whereby 
 the party is exposed to great loss and damage ? — I believe there is redress for 
 it here. 
 
 2947. Sir T. H. Maddock?\^ In this country there are no restrictions against 
 the manufacture of salt, or the growing of the poppy, such as exist against the 
 subject on the part of the Goverixiuent of India r — There are not, I think. 
 
 2948. Mr. Mangles^ A subject in this country would have no redress 
 against the Secretary of State who issued orders by which he was subjected to 
 loss, would he ?- — I do not think that that is so. 
 
 2(}49. Can he prosecute the Crown without the leave of the Crown? — He 
 cannot prosecute the Crown, but he can prosecute the Secretary of State, if 
 the Secretary of State has injured him. He cannot prosecute the Crown ; 
 but even there there are means by which the Crown suffers itself to be approached 
 by a petition, and a decision takes place according to ihe principles of law. 
 
 2950. Does the Crown always grant the prayer of thut petition? — I cannot 
 answer that ; I suppose it always does, where the Attorney-general thinks that 
 there is a case really calling for redress. 
 
 2951. Even there, if a subject is declared entitled to damages, can that 
 subject enforce the recovery of those damages or costs r — The Crown pays 
 no costs. 
 
 29.52. Can he enforce the payment of the damages? — I suppose he cannot 
 enforce anything against the Crown. 
 
 29.53. Is not that a very remarkable superiority in the law in India over the 
 law of England? — It is, but it is more so in point of form, [ think, than in 
 substance; I do not know that anybody is ever injured by the Crown in this 
 country. 
 
 2954. You advised that there should be a legislative body residing in this 
 country, did \ ou not ? — What I intended to suggest was, that the works of the 
 Law Commission should be submitted to a temporary Commission, to be 
 appointed here, not that the Commission should have the power of legislation, 
 but that it should examine the works of the Law Commission, come to a 
 decision upon all their propositions, and then make a recommendation to the 
 Board of Control. 
 
 29.55. Sir T. H. Maddock.] You would still continue the legislative body in 
 India ? — Certainly. 
 
 29,5(1. And therefore you would not propose that any general legislation 
 for India should be conducted in England? — No. 
 
 29,57. Mr. Hume.] You have referred to the Legislative Council in India; 
 how would you constitute that, and what duties would you assign to it .'—I am 
 not exactly prepared to suggest any alteration in the present constitution of the 
 Council, except that I think natives should be admissible to it ; indeed, tiiey are 
 by law admissible to all offices, and 1 think, practically, they should be ad- 
 mitted to all. I am not prepared to say that there is any native now fit to 
 become a member of the Council, but I have no doubt they will be as our 
 education goes on. I am not prepared to recommend any alteration in the 
 present constitution of the Council, except that I think it very desirable that 
 there should be a meinl)er from Madras and Boml)ay in it. 
 
 295 (s. Do you think a Council sitting in Bengal is capable of legislating for 
 Madras and Bombay as well as for Bengal ?— Yes ; I think it would better, and 
 more fully competent, if the suggestion I have made were adopted, that is, if 
 there wen- a member from Madras and Bombay always in the Council. 
 
 2959. Should
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON IM^IAN TEHRITORIES. 263 
 
 •2959. Should that member be selected from the civil or the military depart- C. H. Cameron, 
 ment, or should it be left to the selection of the Government r — I should say it ''*«»• 
 should be left to the selection of the Ciovernment. ' 
 
 2960. Would (me member be sufficient from each of those Presidencies? H April 1853. 
 
 Yes, I think one member would be sufficient. 
 
 29()i. Do you, with that view, contemplate there being any Council at 
 Bombay or Madras : — Only an Executive (.'ouncil. 
 
 2962. Consisting of what number? — Consisting of tlie present number. I 
 do not mean to say that it is the best constitution that could be suggested, but 
 I have not sufficiently considered that subject tc} be able to propose any altera- 
 tion, not seeing distinctly any alteration which would be an improvement. 
 
 2963. Vou think if the laws were codified by a Council at home, as you 
 suggest, it would afford great facility for generalising the administration of the 
 law in each of the Presidencies, and tend to an improvement in the adminis- 
 tration ot justice ? — I do. 
 
 2964. Mr. Lou'e.~\ You have mentioned some of the inconveniences which 
 occur from the administration of justice not being cari'ied on in the name of the 
 Queen ; are there any others ^^ liich occur to you - — Tliere is a conflict of juris- 
 diction which takes place occasionally under the present system. I recollect 
 a case of this kind occurring ; it was a case which was sent by the Government 
 to tlie Law Commission for their consideration in tlie process of codifying. It 
 was a case in which a jierson in the Mofussil had been put into possession of 
 a factory by a summary decision of a Mofussil magistrate. The i)arty against 
 whom the decision passed ought, if he wished to try the question, to have pro- 
 ceeded by a regular suit in the .^iofussil court ; instead of doing that, he ob- 
 tained a judgment in Calcutta against a third person in the Supreme Court of 
 Calcutta, coUusively I suppose, but 1 am not certain how that was. He then got 
 the sheriff of Calcutta to appoint his clerk the bailiii' for the purpose of executing 
 this judgment, and he got a person in the Mofussil to point out this factory, 
 into which his antagonist had been put by the Mofussil magistrate, as the pro- 
 perty of the defendan_t in this suit in Calcutta ; thereupon the man whom the 
 Mofussil magistrate had put into possession was turned out, and the opposite 
 party put into possession by the bailiff of the sheriff of Calcutta. The magis- 
 trate then applied to the Advocate-general to know what he was to do under 
 such circumstances. The Advocate-general advised liim to do nothing, but 
 only to prevent any riot with regard to the possession of tiie factory. The 
 party, who was thus turned out by the operation of the judgment and execution 
 of the Supreuic Court, applied to the magistrate to know what he was to do ; 
 he was answereti that the sheriff of Calcutta, or his bailiff, could only be sued 
 in the Supreme Court ; and was driven in this purely Mofussil ease, and of 
 which the Supreme Court knew absolutely nothing, to seek his remedy, having 
 been put into possession too by the constituted authorities of the country, in 
 the Supreme Court of Calcutta. He did seek a lemedy there, and 1 believe 
 obtained damages ; but tliat evidently is a very inconvenient and irregular 
 mode of administering justice. 
 
 2Q(i5. Wliat defect of the law is the cause of that conflict - — The defect in 
 the law is the having those two systems. If you had a uniform system of 
 courts, with one great court at its head, all questitms relating to this factory 
 would have been decided by the local court to which the jurisdiction belonged. 
 No separate jurisdiction sitting in Calcutta would think of interfering witli it 
 except through the local court, which was already in possession of the questions 
 which arose respecting it. 
 
 jg66. Mr. Mangles \ Probably the man who had been put into possession by 
 the magistrate never heard of this suit going on in Calcutta ? — I believe he 
 heard nothing of it till he was turned out by the bailiff. 
 
 2967. Sir 7'. // AJaddock'\ Do you consider that an isolated case, or is it 
 one of frequent occurrence? — It seems obvious that such cases are likely to 
 occur frequently. 
 
 2965. And in practice, do they occur? — I cannot speak of many such cases 
 coming to my knowledge. 
 
 29^)9. Mr. Luive.\ Can you mention any other inconvenience which arises 
 from not carrying on the administration in the name of the Queen ; with respect 
 to offences committed on the high seas, is there any difficulty experienced ? 
 — There is a great difficulty, but I do not know that it arises from that cause. 
 
 o. :o. KK4 ^970. What
 
 264 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. H. Ciiwein, 2970. What is the difficulty ? — There is, first, difficult)^ in the construction of 
 
 Esq- the statute; and secondly, frame the statute as you will, it is very difficult to frame 
 
 • a law giving the legislative powers yon would desire to give, and withholding 
 
 14 April 1853. those you would desire to withhold; that difficulty arises out of the nature of 
 
 a limited, and local, and subordinate Legislature. 
 
 2971. Mr. Mangles.] How do the difficulties you have described arise from 
 the courts not being carried on in the name of the Queen? — They (that is, the 
 difficulties I formerly described) arise from there being two conflicting sets of 
 judicature ; one happens to be the judicature of the Queen, and the other of 
 the Company. It would be very desirable, with reference to the Indian Legis- 
 lature and the difficulties I am now speaking of, if some proper terms could be 
 found giving the Legislature of India power over those who navigate ships 
 belonging to Indian ports ; but it is not very easy. At present the opinions 
 given by the law officers at home have been to the effect that the Legislature of 
 India cannot legislate for crimes committed upon the high seas. 
 
 2972. Sir T. H. Maddock.] x\nd great inconvenience has arisen in conse- 
 quence ? — Great inconvenience has arisen. 
 
 2973. Mr. Lou'eJ] Would you increase the powers of the Indian Legislature ? 
 — The powers of the Indian Legislature are exceedingly large ; they are not so 
 accurately defined, perhaps, as they might be. It used, for instance, to be dis- 
 puted whether we could create a corporation ; it was said that to create a 
 corporation was an infringement of the restriction with respect to the Queen's 
 prerogative. I thought otherwise, and while I was fourth member of Council 
 we did create two corporations. I thought the restriction regarding the 
 prerogative meant only that we should not enact, for example, that the Queen 
 should not hereafter herself create a corporation in India. That, I think, would 
 be an act infringing upon the prerop;ative of the Queen, but I do not think to 
 do by legislative power what the Queen does by her prerogative is any infringe- 
 ment of the prerogative. 
 
 2974. Mr. Mangles.'] Were there difficulties of the same nature as to the 
 patent law ? — Yes ; and there are other difficulties with regard to legislating 
 for persons within the territories of the native princes. 
 
 2975. Sir T. II. Maddock.] Would there be any difficulty in extending the 
 powers of the Legislature, so that there might be no objection to their legislat- 
 ing for British subjects in foreign states in India ? — No, I think there is no 
 difficulty with regard to British subjects in foreign Indian states. 
 
 297C. I mean with regard to Indian British subjects? — That might be done, 
 but the difficulty applies to the subjects of other states. 
 
 2977. What you call foreign states in India are not exactly in the position 
 which we understand in Europe v\hen we speak of foreign states, are they, 
 they being for the most part in a subordinate position, subsidiary, and with 
 their powers of all descriptions greatly curtailed ? — It is that anomalous position 
 of those states which makes the difficulty. If you were prepared so say that 
 the Nizam's territories are our dominions, then you might legislate for French- 
 men, for example ; but if you are not prepared to say that, if you are not 
 prepared to take the responsibility of the government of the Nizam's territories, 
 as regards France, France would object to your punishing a Frenchman for a 
 crime committed by him in the Nizam's territories. 
 
 2978. Mr. V. Smith.] You were fourth member of Council, were not you ? 
 — I was. 
 
 297(^. Are you prepared to give the Committee any opinion as to any amend- 
 ment or alteration which it might be desirable to make in the position of that 
 member of Council? — I shouhl recommend that he should be allowed to sit and 
 vote upon all occasions in the Council, and not only \\\)0\\ occasions of the passing 
 of laws. It is an inconvenient restriction, and cuts him off from a great deal of 
 the knowledge which he would acquire if he sat and voted upon all occasions. 
 
 2980. You think the position of such a person sent from this country is 
 valuable as an adjunct to the Legislative Council? — I think so. 
 
 298 1 . Are there any other persons whom you would wish to see placed upon 
 the Council ? — I have nothing to suggest as to the Legislative Council but the 
 addition of a member from Madras and Bombay. 
 
 2982. Holding a legal position there, do you mean? — No ; a servant of the 
 East India Company. 
 
 2983. Selected
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN" TEIIRITORIF.S. 265 
 
 2083. Selected by whom .'—Selected as the others arc ; that is, by the C'ourt c. U. Cameron, 
 of Directors. Esq. 
 
 2084. Sir 7\ 11. Maddiich.'] If the supreme authority in India were carried on ~T .- « 
 in tiie name of the Queen, would you not think that the difficulty of legislating 
 
 for the Indian suljjects of the Queen in foreign States would be diminished r — 
 I do not I'ery distinctly see how it would be so. 
 
 20i'>ij. The Queen has no treaties with any of those petty dependent feuda- 
 tories which have been alluded to in a former (piestion. As no laws hitherto 
 have been enacted in the Queen's name, would not it ma"ke a great difference 
 in considering that branch of legislation if all leoislation were hereafter carried 
 on in the Queen's name r -Assuming that the Company has treaties with those 
 States, I think the Queen would be bound to respect those treaties just as much 
 as the Company itself. 
 
 29S6. The treaties are not treaties between equals ; what are called treaties 
 ai*e many of them rather in the shape of grants, are they not, specifying obliga- 
 tions ? — Nevertheless, whatever they are, I should say, Avhatever impediments 
 they throw in the way of legislation by the Company they would also throw in 
 the way of legislation by the Queen. The Queen, 1 think, would be bound to 
 respect whatever rights those treaties or those grants may confer, just as much 
 as the Company is bound to respect them. 
 
 2987. Viscount Jocelyn.~\ If your proposition were carried out, of a member 
 from Bombay and Madras being appointed to the Supreme Council, do you con- 
 sider it important that he should belong to the civil service ? — No, I think he 
 should be appointed either from the civil or the military service. The best man 
 should be taken from either service. 
 
 2988. Do you think that a military man appointed on that Council would be 
 likely to have as accurate a knowledge of what is 1 equired in the public works 
 and the internal arrangements of the country as a civil servant would have? — 
 Yes, I think there are a great many military servants who are quite as compe- 
 tent ; but I by no means intend to say that a militaiy servant should always be 
 appointed. 
 
 2989. Would you bestow the appointment as a i-eward for military service: — 
 No ; if 1 myself had the appointment, I do not think I shovdd give it as a reward 
 for military service. I should give it upon the ground of fitness for the occu- 
 pation. 
 
 2990. The great object you would have in view would be to furnish informa- 
 tion to the Supreme Council in reference to the wants of the Presidency from 
 which the member would attend r — Ves. 
 
 Malcolm Lewin, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 2991 . Chairman.] WILL you state to the Committee for what period you were ^i- Lewin, iUq. 
 
 resident in India ? — I was about 25 years resident in India, during which time I — • 
 
 held almost every office in the Mofussil ; for the last five years I was a judge of 
 
 the Sudder Adawlut ; 1 was also appointed a [Member of Council, but 1 was 
 removed from that office, and also from the office of judge of the Sudder Adaw- 
 lut. I held other offices in the Mofussil ; I was Princip;d Collector, and Col- 
 lector and Registrar ; in fact I have held every office in the Mofussil. 
 
 2992. In what Presidency ? — In the Madras Presidency. 
 
 2993. When did you return ? — About five years ago. 
 
 2994. You were resident in India for 25 years previously ?— Yes ; not 25 
 years consecutively, but at different times. 
 
 2995. The situations you have mentioned having held, and your residence 
 there, must have led you to form an opinion as to the efficiency of the judicial 
 system in the Presidency ; will you state to the Committee what that opinion 
 is r — The basis of tlie system I think is good, but I think there are defects in it ; 
 there is an inconclusiveness and uncertaint\' about its proceedings which para- 
 lyse its efficiency. I think its decisions "are scarcely ever conclusive; for 
 instance, if a decree is passed, it being the judgment of a single individual, 
 there is always a certain doubt attaching to it which leads to further litigation. 
 I think one mode of correcting that would be by the introduction of a system of 
 juries much more extensively than at present, and that then if a decree were passed 
 it should not be appealed from ; after decree there must be execution. Fic- 
 
 0.10. Ll titious
 
 26(i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lcivm. Esq. titious claiius are set up to the property taken in execution, and there is no 
 
 means of adjudicating those claims satisfactorily. I think juries might be in- 
 
 1+ April i8j3. troduced not only in civil cases, but I think they should be the basis of our 
 system in all judicial cases ; all issues of fact should be tried by a jury. It has 
 been suggested that great ditliculty would arise in assembling juries ; it is not 
 however my opinion that any difficulty whatever would arise. I believe that in 
 every place where a moonsiff is situated you would lind at least 300 or 400 
 men fit for that o.fSce. In j)laces where zillali judges are situated, and where 
 subordinate courts are situated, 1 think at least two or three times that number 
 might be found. I believe till juries are introduced into the system our civil 
 proceedings will always be at a disadvantage ; there will always be an inconclu- 
 siveness about them which will lead to farther litigation. 
 
 2096. Do your observations apply to all the courts in India ? — Yes, except 
 the lowest courts, such as the village moonsififs ; but a village moonsiff has the 
 power in deciding all cases of having a jury if he ))leases. 
 
 2097. Is that power frequently employed in Madras 'i — Very little indeed ; 
 there is a great deal of cumbrous machinery about the system, so that it can 
 hardly be carried into effect. The regulations for it are the regulations of 
 1816, introduced by »Sir Thomas iNIunro. Those regulations require answers 
 in writing, a system very much like the system that prevails in our civil courts, 
 and I think the jury or the puuchayet would be in many instances unable to carry 
 it out. In the criminal courts 1 wcmld certainly introduce the s}stem of juries 
 immediately, but for the circumstance that the introduction of the jury system 
 implies that there should be a good judge ; unless you have good judges, the jury 
 system in India would be the very worst system of all. You might have a judgi- 
 who would so browbeat the witnesses and the jury, that it would be impossible 
 to depend upon their decision. We have a regvdatioii in Madras which has never 
 been acted on ; the regulation of 1827, I think it was passed under Sir Thomas 
 Monro's administration, which provided for the employment of juries before the 
 circuit court. In that case the judge is empowered to make his own notes the 
 record of the case ; but the judges are in many instances so bad, and in fact so 
 little to be depended on, that no judge of the Sudder Adawlut wovdd e^■er decide 
 a case upon the notes of any such judge ; there might be a few instances of their 
 doing so, but it would be an exception to the general rule. Some of the judges 
 in Madras would not in this countrj^ be trusted with any office whatever. 
 
 299S. Except in the village moonsiif's court, would you introduce juries in 
 all the courts, in the trial of civil actions? — In all matters of fact; I would 
 allow them to decide all matters of fact. 
 
 2099. In those courts presided over by natives, as well as those presided 
 over by Europeans - — Yes, the jury system is in accordance with the customs 
 of the coimtry ; it is one very much upheld in their estimation, and I think 
 there would be no difficulty in carrying it out ; but then it must be compulsory. 
 There is u certain ajjathy among the natives of India, that unless they are 
 obliged to resort to this system, they will not do it ; and the vakeels endeavour 
 to induce them to take suits to the courts which might be decided by the 
 Punchayct. 
 
 3001'. Would 30U continue the present system of appeals, or make the 
 decisions summary and decisive? — I do not think it is possible to get rid of 
 the system of appeals ; you can have no dependence upon the jmlges. If the 
 judges were good, and you had a verdict of a jury with iTspect to the facts, 
 you might get rid of many of them. In fact, the object of establishing the 
 jury would be to get rid of ajjpeals ; but till ycm have that, I do not think it is 
 possible to get rid of ap])eals, as the case now stands. 
 
 3001. Do your objections to the judges apply to the native and the European 
 judges equally r — They apply more to the European judges than to the natives, 
 I think. 1 heard sonu> discussion in this rocnu some days ago, in which the 
 European judges were spoken of as incorrupt and incorruptible. My experi- 
 ence has been, and I am ready to ])rove it, that the Indian native judges arc 
 quite as incorrupt and quite as incorruptible as the European jvulgcs. I could 
 adduce cases whi(!h would show that the integrity is rather on the side of the native 
 than the European ; and the abilit v is decidedly on the side of tlie natives. 
 
 3002. W)\x do not therefore think that it is necessary to give higher salaries 
 to the native judges in order to insure their integrity? — I think it is very 
 unjust to confine them to their ])resent salaries, though I can hardly say that 
 
 the}'
 
 SELECT COMMnTKH OX IXDI A\ TERRITORIES. 
 
 ^67 
 
 they do not get sufticifiit salaries, from the fact that they do tiu-ir duties 
 honestly rvith their present salaries ; hut when we are ijcivini:; Europeans lara;e 
 salaries, justiee recpiires that the natives also shoiUd receive more than they 
 have now. Takim^ the case of a moonsiff, 1 would give him other jurisdiction 
 than that whicjh he now has. The moonsiffs are the ahlest judicial ollicers in 
 my opinion that we have. I would give those men a criminal jurisdiction, and 
 if they have a criminal jurisdiction, they must at the same time have an addi- 
 tional amount of ])ay, T sujuxise ; it would greatly add to the rcspeetahilitv of 
 the office. By giving them criminal jurisdiction you would relieve the magis- 
 trate from a good deal of his present jurisdiction. A great deal of the juris- 
 diction which the magistrate now has appears to me almost ahsurd. The 
 magistrate is, of course, a collector also ; he has very great power in judicial 
 matters ; he has the power of deciding cases, and of inflicting one year's im- 
 prisonment, with fine and stripes also to the number of 1 ;">(); it is impossil)le 
 that the magistrate can adjudicate all such cases, and also perform his 
 <luties as collector. 1 think also that one of the chief things to be done in 
 order to improve the native service, which I have heard somewhat disparaged 
 in this room, would be to place them on a more secure footing than thev now 
 are. I'he native servants, I think, have not justice done them in compai'ison 
 with tly European ; their ofKccs are not so secure ; they are turned out often 
 without any sufficient reason, and when they are turned out they have no appeal. 
 The results of a service of 30 or 40 years are scattered to the wind, sometimes 
 without the slightest compunction ; and a man who woidd be entitled to a pen- 
 sion, is turned adrift and deprived of his pension without even a judicial sentence 
 being passed ujjon him. The Government, of course, have the right to say to a 
 man, " We have no longer any contidence in you, and we will deprive 30U of 
 your office ;" and if the Government passed no penal sentence upon him, no 
 one would have a right to complain ; but if a penal sentence is passed upon 
 the man, and he is (leprived of a pension, which he is entitled to by a service 
 of 30 or 40 years, without trial, there is a monstrous injustice done him. I 
 could name an instance which occurred within my own observation to a man 
 named Napatty Shashegerry Row ; this man was formerly under me when I was 
 collector of Ciuntoor, and conducted himself with the greatest possible credit; 
 I believe he was held in more respect in the district than any man in it. My 
 assistant informed me, on my reaching Guntoor, " He is a man of so high 
 a character in the district, that it is a common saying among the people, if 
 Shashegerry Row says so and so it must be true." I afterwards went to Rajah- 
 mnndry as collector ; the district was in disorder, and the Government sent me 
 to put it in order. I found that, owing to the negligence of my predecessor, 
 corruption existed from the highest to the lowest servant : I found it exceed- 
 ingly difficult to get on without some little e.xotic i:)lood, and I sent for this 
 man and another officer, whom I had had with me in Guntoor. Those men 
 came to me, and were of the greatest possible service to me : this man 
 conducted himself with the greatest possible credit, as I understood through 
 two other collectors. He afterwards returned to Guntoor as head sheristadar ; 
 he then fell into some difficulties, and was removed from his office with the 
 loss of his pension ; this hapi)ened while I was in .Madras. 
 
 3003. In what year was that .' — In 1847 or 1848. He came to me as an old 
 friend of his, and asked me what he was to do ; I advised him to apply to the 
 •Government for a trial, but not to ask for his office, or for anything else, but 
 to insist ujion a trial ; in fact, 1 wrote one or two letters for him to the Govern- 
 ment, to induce the (iovcniment to place him on his trial. But the Government, 
 I suppose, knew perfectly well that the charges could not be proved against 
 him, and therefore thev turned him out without it. 
 
 3004. Will you state what the difficulties were into which he fell .'— He was 
 accused of being instrumental in a certain part of the assessment not coming 
 into the Government coffers ; a new collector had been put into the district, 
 who had come from another part of the country where a different assessment 
 prevailed, and he wanted to introduce the same jjlan of collection into (iuntoor ; 
 he wanted to dela}' the collection in (nuitoor in the same way as it was delayed 
 in Canara, the consequence of which would have been that the ryots would 
 have been allowed, under the system introduced by him, to carry off their 
 crops before the collection was actually paid ; w hereas, under the system pre- 
 vailing in Guntoor, no man could take away his crop till he had paid the 
 
 0.10. L L 2 revenue 
 
 M. Lewiii, \iiu\. 
 14 .April l8.-,3. 
 
 V
 
 268 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Letoin, Esq. revenue demanded, or made some sort of engagement to pay it. This sheristadar 
 
 — .- remonstrated with the collector, and said, " If you allow the collections to be 
 
 14 April 1853. suspended in this way, you will lose all the revenue ; " I know that this hap- 
 pened, because I saw the letter of the collector, Mr. Stokes, in which he 
 admitted that this sheristadar had remonstrated with him ; but there were other 
 complaints of the same nature, to the effect that he had been guilty of malver- 
 sation, and that the Government had lost a great deal of money through him. 
 All this, for aught I know, may have been perfectly true ; the complaint which 
 the man made, and which I think was a very substantial complaint, was, that 
 he was deprived of office, with loss of reputation and of a very large pension 
 without a formal trial. 
 
 300.5. Do you mean that a different system is pursued by the Government 
 towards native officials from that which is pursued towards European officials ? 
 — Certainly ; I should be quite able to substantiate that statement. This man 
 afterwai'ds appealed to the Court of Directors, but could not be heard there. 
 I have only mentioned these facts, because I do not hke to make assertions of 
 this kind without substantiating them by facts. 
 
 3006. Sir R. H. Ligli.s.] Was the party to whom you refer dismissed without 
 any inquiry ? — He was dismissed without that inquiry which the regulation, in 
 my opinion, required should have been gone through. There is a regulation 
 of 1843 or 1844, appointing the means of inquiring into the conduct of civil 
 servants ; under that regulation the man ought to have been tried. If the 
 Commissioners had found him guilty of what was imputed to him, they were 
 bound to send him before a ci'iminal jurisdiction to answer for it ; but, instead 
 of that, he was dismissed upon the fiat of a single man. 
 
 3007. Sir C. Wood.] What was the nature of the inquiry that was made ? — 
 I cannot tell precisely : the Commissioner was sent up there, and he had the 
 powers of the Board of Revenue. All I know is, that it was an extra-judicial 
 inquiiy made by a single man. It was not a formal inquiry, in which he was put 
 upon his trial, and in which he had an opportunity of making a formal defence. 
 
 3008. Who was the person sent to make the inquiry - — He was a member of 
 the Board of Revenue, who was sent up to inquire in the northern sircars ; to 
 make revenue inquiries. 
 
 3oog. Sir R. H. Tuf/lis.'] Was he the person who in the case of a European 
 would have been sent to make a similar inquiry ? — He was not sent for the 
 purpose ; he had the power of inquiring generally into all the revenue affairs 
 in the northern sircars. 
 
 3010. In the course of that official duty, he investigated those particular 
 facts ?— I suppose so. 
 
 3011. Mr. F. Smith.] You said tlie man was treated differently from the 
 manner in which a European would have been treated ? — If a European had 
 been tried at all, if he had not escaped with impunity, he would have been 
 tried before that Commissioner ; but it is not at aU improbable that he would 
 have escaped altogether. 
 
 301 2. Lord Sttmh'i/.] Do you complain in this case that the law was violated, 
 or do you conq)laiu tliat the law itself was not sufficient ? — There was no law 
 actually violated, because the law was not even appealed to ; he was liable to 
 be tried under a connuission, but he was not tried under a commission ; the 
 Governmeiit punislied him without any trial. 
 
 3013. Mr. A/ miff les.] Does not the Government dismiss its European civil 
 oervants without a trial, sometimes ? — It might do so. I am merely contending 
 for a moral right here ; I am not saying that tlie law has been violated. 
 
 3014. You spoke of the difference between the two cases; does not the 
 Government occasionally dismiss its European servants without a formal trial ? 
 — It does. 
 
 301.5. Then there is no difference, is there ?— There is a great difference. 
 The Government does not pass penal sentences ui)on Europeans without a trial ; 
 this was a jjcnal sentence, which deprived this man of his pension. I do not 
 think any Kuropean would have endured it. 
 
 30 1 G. Mr. jlimc] Is it your oi)inion, from what you have said, that the 
 natives should Ik- secured in the offices they hold during their good behaviour, 
 and subject to dismissal only after due inquiry, agreeable to the Regulations ? 
 — I think that should l)e the case in every instance ; but I think the form of 
 a)i inquiry must be according to the Regulations. 
 
 3017. Sir
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 >69 
 
 3017. Sir./. W. Hofff).] The Committee understand you to be of opinion 
 that none of the subordinate judicial officers ought to be dismissed by the 
 Government unless they have been formally tried and convicted of peculation 
 or corruption ? — I have not expressed any such opinion, nor do I entertain 
 such an opinion. If certain eases of malversation in various ways are brought 
 to the notice of the (iovernnient, there being no Parliament to which the judges 
 are subject in cases of malversation, the Government must act. 
 
 30US. "When the (lovcrnmcnt wish to inform themselves as to the conduct of 
 any judieiul or other officer, either European or native, is not the mode pur- 
 sued to have that inquiry conducted by a Commissioner, that (Commissioner 
 being a civil servant of standing and chara(;terr — It is, and I should not object 
 in th(! smallest degree if the Government always adhered to that Hegulation ; 
 but they dismiss a man, having the power of dismissing him under this Regu- 
 lation, without appealing to any law at all. 
 
 301 (). In the i)articular case which you allude to, was not the representation 
 to the Government n>.ade by a gentleman who was a Connnissioner so appointed, 
 and who was of the high rank of a member of the Board of Revenue r — Yes. 
 
 30-20. And the re]iort of that Commissioner so appointed was unfavourable 
 to the integrity of the transactions of this individual. Whether that report was 
 right or wrong, such were its contents ? — I never saw the report, and cannot tell 
 what it was ; but I believe it was under that Commissioner's report that the 
 man uas dismissed. 
 
 3021. Sir T. H. Maddock.] If a Commissioner of the same kind had passed a 
 similar opinion as to the want of integrity of any civil servant, which rejjort of 
 the Commissioner had been sent to the home authorities, and that civil servant 
 had been dismissed from the service by the home authorities, in that case, 
 according to the rules of the Civil Service Annuity Fund, would not that civil 
 servant have suffered in the same manner in which you describe this native 
 gen*^leman to have suffered, inasmuch as he would have forfeited his pension '? — 
 That is so, certainly. He might have been made to suffer. 
 
 3022. Mr. J. Ellio/.] Do you complain that this man was deprived of his 
 pension contrary to law r — A penal sentence was passed upon him without any 
 formal trial. 
 
 3023. Which you consider to be contrary to law? — lean hardly say that ; 
 the Government is despotic in India, and can do what it pleases ; therefore I 
 can hardly say that it was contrary to law, 
 
 302.}. If it w'as not contrary law, the Government had the power to do it ; 
 and I suppose you would consider that they were the proper judges as to 
 whether they would exercise that jiower or not ? — They were the lawful judges, 
 imdoubtedly. 
 
 3025. Mr. Mangles.'] Was not the Commissioner by whom that inquiry was 
 conducted one of the ablest officers in the service ? — That is a matter of opinion ; 
 it is not my opinion that he was so. I think he was an officer who had had a 
 very small experience, and is now entrusted with duties which he has not the 
 ability to jierform. 
 
 3026. How long had he been in the service ? — Probably 20 years. 
 
 3027. Chairman.] You said that one means for the improvement of the 
 ju<licial system in Madras would be the transference of magisterial duties from 
 European collectors to the native moonsiffs r — Yes. 
 
 3028. Is there any other improvement which you would suggest r — I think a 
 European collector should not have the power over his own servants, which he 
 at present has. A collector now may fine and imprison, and confiscate the 
 property of one of his own servants to any amount ; he is to a certain extent 
 the judge in his own cause. 
 
 3029. What remedy have the servants in such cases : — Is one whatever ; they 
 may appeal to the Board of Revenue, but then an appeal to the Board of 
 Revenue from proceedings of that nature is a very unsatisfactory proceeding. 
 It would be far better that the native servants who are now subjected to that 
 authority should be subjected to an impartial authority, such as the zillah 
 court. 
 
 3030. They can only appeal to the Board of Revenue ? — Only to the Board 
 of Revenue. 
 
 3031. Cannot they appeal to any of the courts I — Not unless there has been 
 something illegal on the part of the collector. 
 
 0.10. " LL3 3032. Would 
 
 M. Leuiin, E«q. 
 14 April i«53.
 
 270 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JM. £rf;!i!/», Esq. 3032. Would not the treatment to which you have alluded be considered 
 ^ illegal r — If one of the servants of the collector were accused of peculation, or 
 
 14 Ajinl 1853. of falsifyins: the accounts, the collector would have a power of trying him at 
 once, and himself adjiicating upon the case. In the case of misappropriation 
 of the Government money, he has the power of fining a man to double the 
 amount ; the apjjcal is to the Board of Revenue. 
 
 3033. And not to any court of justice ?^No, not unless there has been 
 something illegal in the proceedings. 
 
 3034. Could a ])ublic servant in this country, a ganger or tidewaiter, who 
 was dismissed by the Board of Customs, appeal to a court of justice against 
 such dismissal ? — 1 am not arguing u})on the abuse of a thing ; I am arguing 
 upon the use of it. I have always thought it a great evil ia this country that 
 revenue servants should be dismissed without an opportunity of obtaining the 
 opinion of some legal tribunal upon their case. 
 
 303.5. \\"oidd not a public servant in tliis country, if dismissed for miscon- 
 duct, forfeit his pension ? — Probably he would. I should lilve to refer to the 
 case of a man named Vencata Royaloo. He was suspected of purloining 
 some documents from the Secretary's Office. The Government dismissed this, 
 man, as, of course, they had a right to do, but in dismissing him tliey pro- 
 claimed his dismissal in the official gazette, and declared him incapable of 
 serving the Government again, in consequence of having committed particular 
 offences, those offences being specified in the Fort St. George Gazette. The 
 man, not knowing what means of redress to take, ordered a lawyer to com- 
 ment^e a suit against the printer of the paper. The Government, instead of 
 meeting this suit in the way in which they niight have done by a plea in 
 justification, pleaded to the jurisdiction of the court, and the matter fell to 
 the ground, the Supreme (,'om't not having jurisdiction in the case. In this 
 instance the {Government had the right to dismiss the man, of course, but they 
 had no right to pass that sentence upon him. I knew the man while I was 
 in India ; and 1 have since seen a barrister of the Supreme Court, who described 
 him to me ordy a week ago as a man of integrity, and of great abilit}'. If the 
 -Government had been held in any general respect, that man would have been 
 ruined irretrievablv. 
 
 3036. Mr. Mangles.'] Do you think tlie Government has a satisfaction in 
 dismissing honest native servants from its employ ?— I do not know. I merely 
 argue upon facts ; the Conunittee must draw its own inferences from them. All 
 I know is, that cases go on ; and the civil service is protected in a manner which 
 is derogatory to the ci\il service itself, and derogatory to the Govei'nment 
 itself. 
 
 3037. Cha'innaii.] Will you state what further remedies you would apply to 
 the defects which you state to e.xist in the judicial system ? — The chief remedv 
 is tlie employment of juries ; I think if juries were employed, as they ought to 
 ])e, our judicial system would i)roceed with greater security and also with 
 gi'cater satisfaction to the natives, who are, I think, at the present time wholly 
 dissatisfied with it. One of tlie greatest impvoveniLUts in the native civil ser- 
 vice would be to render them indcj)endent and to i)ay them properly. This 
 last observation apjihes still more strongly to the reveime service than to the 
 judicial service. In tlie revenue service there can be no doubt that in nearly 
 every district tlicre is an immense amount of fraud and peculation. The 
 tehsddars travel over the various districts of the country ; they are men who 
 have a very small pay, and they are in conseciuence an incubus on every village 
 they go to, and their servants, without mentioning the bribery which some- 
 times takes place, live ujion the villages wherever they go. The remedy for 
 that evil is the same as was ai)plicd formerly to the l^uropeau civil servants. 
 Honesty 1 suppose is to be purchased from the natives in the same way as it is 
 from the Europeans ; if the former were paid in the same way as the latter, I 
 have no doubt tlu-v would be equally honest. 
 
 3035. Hitherto the amendments which you have suggested have been the 
 introduction of juries, the withdrawal of magisterial power from the collector 
 and giving it to the native moonsiff, and also takinir from the collector the 
 power which he now has of punishing in certain cases ; is there anything else 
 which occurs to you to suggest? — As far as the European judicial service is 
 concerned, I think there should be a restriction on the ajipointments made to those 
 offices. Natives, who are very far superior often to Europeans, should not, 
 
 I think,
 
 SELECT COMMHTEE ON INDIAN TERHITORIES. 
 
 27' 
 
 I think, be supervised by them in the way the)' arc now. There are men now on 
 the bcneh at Mach'as who are not only unfit for tlie office which they liold, but who 
 have been iiuilty of acts wliieli wonhl render them unfit to 1)e entrusted with 
 the life of a flea ahnost, instead of tlie hfe of a luunan Ijciua; as tliey are now. 
 There is now a man hokiing the office of sessions judge wlio retin-ned a trial to the 
 Sadder Adawiut when I w;is judii:e. Tlu' facts eanu; before m\sel>", and therefore 
 I know tliem ))erfeetly. The letter oeeui)ied one side and-a-half of a foolscap 
 sheet of paper ; he recomnuMided one man to be hanged : another nmn to be 
 transported ; and a third he recommended should be set free, because there 
 ■was not a " westage " of eviden(;e against him, the; word being sjjelt in that way. 
 After some discussion in the Sadder, we called ujjou liim to forward the 
 original dociunent ; the original document was found in the handwriting of a 
 native attached to his court, and in that document there was the very same 
 mistake, the word being so spelt, " vvestwgc ;" clearly proving that he had not 
 even seen the document on which he recomnu'uded a man to be hanged. 'Inhere 
 is a ease referred to at tlie end of Mr. Nortous book, in which I was concerned. 
 In tliat case two judges of the Sudder had been passed over for several years 
 as incomi)ctent. At the time that the ofhce of circuit judge was changed to 
 that of sessions judge, those men were circuit judges, and they were allowed as 
 sessions judges to retain the salary of circuit judges, being old judges. The 
 Government of the day wished to effect the saving of the difference of salary, 
 and therefore tliose two men were put in ; the}' were obviously unfit, but yet 
 they had the adjudication of this case. Though I had nothing to do with thl^ 
 matter, I heard that several men were going to be hanged, and, mistrusting the 
 judgment of those men, I looked into the proceedings. 1 found that the men 
 on whose evidence they were going to hang four peojile were the very i)eople 
 who had committed the murder. This led to a request on my part that the 
 ex (iffiao chief judge, a mend)er of Council, should be called on to give Ids 
 opinion on the case, which he did, and he agreed with me. It then became 
 necessary to appoint a fifth judge, and the chief secretary was appointed. He 
 also agreed with me, and the men's lives were saved. 
 
 3039. Were those facts judicially proved ? — They were clearl}' proved ; the 
 facts are all on record. 
 
 3040. Mr. J. Elliot.'] Do you give those instances, as showing the general 
 character of the Madras judicial service : — I think there are a great many 
 other cases equally bad. 1 hope they are exceptions to the general rale, rather 
 than otherwise 
 the case that it treated it \evy lightly 
 
 3041. In your opinion, has the judicial service of the Company at Madras 
 deteriorated very much of late years ? — I think it has, very nmi'h indeed : 
 I think that it has been a refuge for the destitute in a very great many cases. 
 
 3042. From what time do you date that deterioration : — 1 think very mucli 
 from the time of Sir Thomas Monro. I could mention several cases in whicii 
 men have been put into the judicial department who were obviously fit for 
 nothing else. There are cases, however, of another description. I can 
 mention a case of a gentleman who held the office of judge of a j)rovincial 
 court with me ; he was guilty of some errors of decision, and otherwise, 
 and the Government thought it necessary to remove him from office ; 
 he was accordingly removed, and the case was referred to the C'oiut of 
 Directors. They declared the man incapable of holding any further office in 
 the judicial department. This man was within a year appointed to one of the 
 finest districts at Madras as coll'.ctor and magistrate. '1 he present Postmaster- 
 general at Madras had been removed from his office ; he was a judge, and ins 
 proceedings, many of them, came before me in appeal, and therefore I had an 
 ample ojjportunity of seeing what they were. I do not howev(>r give merely 
 the result of my own opinion ; I am speaking of the judgments arrived at by 
 his superior at the time. Grosser cases of cruelty and oppression I never saw 
 in the whole course of my life. 
 
 3043. Chairman.'] He was removed from his office jou say ■ — Yes, and 
 declared unfit to hold any judicial appointment ; but he was appointed as a 
 reward afterwards, I suppose, to one of the best offices at Madras, nauiely, that 
 of Postmaster-general. 
 
 JO44. Might not he be competent for that post, though he was not qualified 
 
 for the office of judge r — He might have been qualifieil for that office, but it is 
 
 0. 1 0. L L 4 not 
 
 M. I.nciit, ^n^ 
 14 A|>iil i*.'-,:^- 
 
 hut I know in this case the Government thought so little of
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lewin, Esq. 
 14 April 1853. 
 
 not usual to promote men to a high office in consequence of their having com- 
 mitted oifences in a lower one. 
 
 3045. Sir R. 11. IiigUs.'] When you said that the deterioration in the judicial 
 service at Madras dated from the time of Sir Thomas Monro, did you mean 
 that the Committee should exclude the time of Sir Thomas Monro himself? — 
 No, I think it began with him ; he was the first man who established the 
 revenue department as a superior department. 
 
 3046. Mr. Mangles.'] The Government, by removing this judge of whom you 
 spoke, did all that lay in their power to improve the administration, did not 
 they? — I do not find fault with the Government for that ; they did all they 
 could ; they removed liim from the possibility of committing further errors. 
 
 3047. Mr. V. Smith.'] Was the Government who removed him the same 
 Government that uave him the office of Postmaster-general r — No. 
 
 3048. Mr. Mangles.] In the case in which the vyord " westage" occurred, did 
 the Sudder Court report the conduct of the judge to the Government ? — Yes. 
 
 3049. How did the Government act r —They treated it very lightly ; they 
 reprimanded him ; that was all. There was another case of a gentleman who 
 holds the office of sessions judge now. He is a gentleman who is famed for 
 forgetting the truth ; he wrote on one instance a most deliberate falsehood to 
 the Sudder Adawlut. The Government merely reprimanded him, and treated 
 it almost as a venial offence ; he happened to belong to a party. When the 
 native service see such extraordinar\' favouritism towards another department 
 of the public service, it cannot be otherwise than dissatisfied. 
 
 3050. Mr. F. Smith.] Do you sufficiently recollect the nature of the repri- 
 mand to say whether it was for falsehood ? — The Governuient rather softened 
 the expression ; but it was as plain as the sun at noonday that the Government 
 saw that a falsehood had been committed. This man had written more than 
 one falsehood to the Government before ; he is a man of bad character. 
 
 3051. Sir/. IV. Hogg.] Without saying who was right or who was wrong, 
 is not it the fact that, while you were a judge of the Sudder, you and the 
 Government of the da}' todk very different views upon most matters relating to 
 public duty and the conduct of public servants r — The question embraces the 
 whole time I was a Sudder judge, whereas my quarrel with the Government 
 only arose at the latter part of my service. 
 
 30.52. Mr. Mangles.] How long were you a Sudder judge r- I had been a 
 Sudder judge about five years when the quarrel between the Government and 
 myself arose ; I was a Sudder judge about seven or eight months afterwards. 
 I had no quarrel with the Government before that. As to my quarrel with the 
 Government, I will state in a very few words what the ciuarrel was. The 
 Government sent an order to the Sudder Court, which assailed its independence. 
 I was the first who said that the order must be obeyed, but I at the same time 
 said that it was an improper oi-der, and I wrote to Ciovernment accordingly, 
 and told them that I would not allow the independence of the Sudder Court to 
 be assailed. That led to a long continued correspondence ; this part of the trans- 
 action did not lead to the quarrel, but the Government then entered into a 
 clandestine correspondence (all of which is on record, as the Honourable 
 Baronet must perfectly well know) with the first judge, who happened to be 
 one of the leaders of the Missionary party. The object of the Government in 
 sending that order to the Sudder Court was to induce the Sudder Court to 
 pass unjust decisions in cases in which Christians and heathens, as they called 
 them, were concerned.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 273 
 
 Luna, 18 die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBKRS PRESENT. 
 
 Sir H. II. Iiiglis. 
 Mr. H-.irdinge. 
 Mr. Miinoles. 
 Sir J. W; Hogi,'. 
 Mr. J. Elliot. 
 Mr. B-.iillie. 
 Mr. Veinoii Smit'i. 
 Lord Stanley. 
 Viscount Joielyn. 
 Sir Charks Wood. 
 Sir Georjje Grey. 
 Mr. La'.joucherc. 
 
 Mr. Spooiur. 
 Mr. R. II. Clive. 
 Sir T. II. Maddock. 
 Mr. J. iMtzi^erald. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 Mr. ('obden. 
 Mr. llerries. 
 Mr. MilniT Gibson. 
 Mr. Macaulay. 
 Mr. Newdeiiate. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., ix the Chair. 
 
 18 April l85;5. 
 
 Malcolm Lavhi, Esq., called in : and further E.vamined : 
 
 30,53. Chairmanr\ HAVE you anything in explanation of your former evidence 3/, x,«i.,„, Esq. 
 to state to the Committee ? — I have an e.xplanation to give respecting the 
 sheristadar of Ghuntoor. I was not in perfect recollection whether this man 
 had undergone a formal trial or whether he had been dismissed from the service 
 without one ; I have since referred to authorities and find he was not formally 
 tried ; the reason of his not being formally tried was simply this, that they 
 had no evidence to prove a case against him. Inconsequence of the acting- 
 collector of the district not being able to prove a case against him, a report 
 was made to the Commissioner, and the Commissioner in consequence made a 
 long- report to the Madras Government, in which he laid before the Government 
 several grave crimes and misdemeanors ; at least they were called so, though if 
 the Committee will allow me to show what they were, they will see that they 
 were not sufficient for any court of law to proceed upon. In fact I may say 
 they would have been scouted from any court in the world where justice had 
 the slightest influence. I left it uncertain on the last day whether this man 
 had undergone a formal trial or not ; I now state that he had not ; I mentioned 
 the case in elucidation of what I stated, that in the conduct of the Government 
 towards Europeans in comparison with their conduct towards natives, there 
 was the greatest possible partiality. I elucidated this by several instances. If 
 the Committee will allow me I will give them two more instances ; I will state 
 the case of a gentleman who left India three or four years ago ; he happened 
 at that time to be in the Sudder Adawlut with me as a judge, he was removed 
 from the office which he was holding ; he held an acting appointment in it, but 
 he was not allowed to be appointed permanently to it, in consequence of certain 
 acts which he had committed while in office. At the time he left India there 
 'were certain charges against him affecting his character ; in consequence he 
 resigned the service ; I will not say that it Avas in consequence of those he re- 
 signed the service, but he did resign just at the time the charges were pre- 
 ferred against him ; the Government allowed him to leave the service and to 
 take his pension. They stated at the same time that as he was about to 
 leave the service they would not go any further into the charges, but they 
 would let him leave the service under that cloud, if I may so call it, and 
 they allowed him to take his pension. There is another case of a gentleman, 
 who was also a judge with me in the Sudder Adawlut ; this gentleman I might 
 myself have kept in the Sudder if I had pleased. Lord Tweeddale asked me indi- 
 rectly my opinion about him, but 1 refused to give any opinion about him ; I told 
 his Lordship that it was not for me to give my opinion about any one inider 
 such circumstances : in consequence of that evasive answer he was not put into 
 0.10. M M the
 
 274 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lciiin, Esq. 
 18 April 1853. 
 
 the Sudder Adawlut : in fact he was not fit for it. 
 
 afterwards through the Insolvent Court as a fraudulent debtor 
 
 W 
 
 This gentleman passed 
 he was remanded 
 for six months to gaol, and remained in gaol for six months ; at the same time he 
 was accused, and it was proved, that in violation of one of the Acts of Parliament, 
 he had had pecuniarv dealings with a native prince of the country. The Court of 
 Directors, in consequence of this, declared that he should never be permitted 
 to hold any employment in the Compan_v's service again, as he was unfit for it ; 
 but they did, at the same time, in consequence of his having certain family 
 interest, and being able to besiege the court in Leadenhall-street, allow him to 
 retire on liis pension. I maintain, and I do not think any gentleman who 
 knows anything of the civil service, and the practice of the Government towards 
 it, will deny it, that if that man had been a native, he would have been turned 
 adrift with the loss of his pension and everything else. 
 
 30,f,4. Allowing, for the sake of argument, such defects to exist in the quali- 
 fications of the civil servants who ai'e thus appointed to judicial situations, what 
 remedy would you suggest ? — I believe the question refers to the judicial service. 
 I think the services, whetlier revenue or judicial, in order to make those engaged 
 in them conduct themselves as they ought to do, must be made independent. 
 Nothing can be more injurious than to have the judicial service solely depen- 
 dent upon the will of a Governor, who at any time may overthrow it, and trump 
 up charges against it, and who having placed liimself in the wrong (as the 
 Marquis of Tweeddale did in my case, for my proceedings in that case 
 were every one of them confirmed, and every one of the Marquis of 
 Tweeddale's decisions reversed), may then invent other excuses for turning 
 out the judges ; for instance, he turned me out, because I would not 
 obey his orders, which orders were illegal, and which orders were reversed 
 by the Court in Leadenhall-street, as the Honourable Baronet perfectly 
 well knows, because they came before him, and they confirmed all my pro- 
 ceedings. It was stated that I had lost my temper ; 1 did not lose my temper 
 till the Marquis of Tweeddale had insulted the Court for having placed the 
 Government in the wrong, as it had done, upon which it became necessary to 
 invent an excuse to turn me out. The same thing may be said of the Govern- 
 ment at home ; the Government must be independent, or else they cannot 
 possibly administer the affairs of India to advantage. If men are sent out 
 as Governoi's there who are perfectly unfit for the office, and if the Court in 
 Leadenhall-street are afraid to administer justice between them and their 
 servants, it is impossible that the service can be respectable or be respected. 
 The consequence is that, speaking of the Sudder Adawlut, I maintain that the 
 Sudder Adawlut is neither respected in the service, nor is it often respectable. 
 The case of the Sudder Adawlut, I think, is a very scandalous case ; and as 
 the Honourable Baronet, the last time I appeared before the Committee, threw 
 a doubt upon my evidence, I will simply say, in answer to that doubt, that the 
 Honourable Baronet, who was chairman of the Court at the time, is much 
 more deeply interested in suppressing the facts of the case than I am in 
 exposing them. I could show to the satisfaction, I am certain, of any court 
 of justice, that the Honourable Baronet must have lent himself to proceedings, 
 on the part of the Marquis of Tweeddale, which would not bo suffered by 
 a court of justice. I might also go so far as to say that I do not think any 
 man of honour would have passed over the proceedings of the Marquis of 
 Tweeddale. One of the first things the Marquis of 'i'weeddale did, was to enter 
 into a clandestine correspondence with the fir^t judge of the court. 1 beg to 
 say that I have all the documents necessary to show it. The first thing he did 
 was to send an order to the court, which I have here. He called upon the (Jourt 
 to give an account of their judgments in a case in which Christians were prosecu- 
 tors, and heathens the accused. The Court of Directors in Leadenhall-street very 
 properly condemned the Marquis of Tweeddale for the use of the word "heathens," 
 and cancelled the order. But though they cancelled the order, and though my 
 proceedings were confirmed, and all the proceedings of the Madras government 
 reversed, yet because 1 had lost my temper, although the Mai'quis of Tweeddale 
 had been guilty of the grossest acts of inq)ropriety, as all his proceedings showed, 
 they passed no judgment whatever such as they ought to have passed upon 
 him ; he ought to have been turned out. They went further than this : the 
 first judge of the court, who had been in collusion with the Marquis of Tweed- 
 dale, was piously inclined towards the Christians, and impiously inclined 
 
 towards
 
 SELECT COiVlMn lEE ON INDIAN TERRITOIUES. 275 
 
 toward? the heathen? ; but as soon as the ^larquis of Tweeddale found that he M.Lemn. tUq. 
 
 was in the wrong, and that the Court of Directors had detected liis falsehood, , 
 
 in sa3ing that he had not been in secret correspondence with him, the Marquis ijj 18 April 1853. 
 of Tvvceddale turned this judge out. Having made use of him as long as it 
 suited his ])urpose, he then turned him out. The Marquis of Tweeddale, I 
 must observe, wrote to the Court of Directors, and stated that the accusation 
 that he had corresponded clandestinely witli the first judge of the court, had 
 no foundation whatever, but he was not aware at the time he wrote this, that a 
 copy of the despatch which he sent to the Court of Directors was in my hands, 
 and that an answer contradicting that statement was carried home with that 
 ver\- despatch ; and the Court of Directors, in conse(|uenee, reproved him for 
 that. Now it is quite evident that the Court in Leadenhall-street, of course, 
 could turn me out, or do what they liked w-ith impunity ; but they did not dare 
 to touch a hair of the head of the INIarquis of Tweeddale, though I will under- 
 take to say that in any court of justice, or among gentlemen, his conduct 
 would be considered disgracefid, and tainted with the grossest falseliood. Re- 
 verting to the question wliich T was asked, 1 think the first remedy is to make the 
 courts independent of Government ; they cannot be entirel)^ so, but I think 
 they should be placed in such a situation of independence that they should not 
 be exposed to the supposition of being obliged to do every thing which the 
 Government requires of them. If the judges in correspondence with the Govern- 
 ment differfrom them they should not be liable to be turned out. Iwould not allow 
 any Governor to turn out a judge of the Sudder Adawlut without a commission 
 upon his conduct, and I would not allow that commission to be composed 
 entirely of men in the service. If there were a supreme court independent of 
 the Sudder Adawlut, I would allow some of the judges upon it to be upon the 
 commission, but cei-tainly allowing a commission upon the conduct of a judge 
 of the Sudder Adawlut to include men lower than him in rank, and to be under 
 the immediate orders of tlie Government, is a perfect farce. There is no indepen- 
 dence at the present time in our courts of justice in India. 
 
 30.55. Is there any other alteration which you would wish to sugge-t in the 
 judicial system adopted in India?— For carrying out the justice of the country, 
 I would admit natives ; I would associate a native with a European in every 
 case ; I would pass an order, which should be carried into practice, that the 
 natives of the country should be eligible to any situation, however hiiih, accord- 
 ing to their merit. 1 would allow the same practice to prevail in India which 
 is in accordance with the practice under our own constitution. I would also 
 allow the Government of India to select for all offices, and I would abolish the 
 civil service ; because, if the civil ser-vice remains in the hands of the East India 
 Company, I am perfectly certain that the best men will not be selected for 
 office, and I think in practice it has been found that the best men are not 
 selected for office. I consider, as the Government of India is responsible for its 
 good Government, the power of selecting should be in their hands ; and I am 
 perfectly certain that, if they are not immediately able to find persons fit for 
 situations, they might in a very short time produce a competition for employ- 
 ments in India, which would enable them to fill the highest and the lowest 
 offices with advantage to the state. 
 
 30.56. Mr. Macaul(ii/.\ What security do you propose ta take that every 
 Governor who goes out will not be accompanied by a number of his relations 
 and friends to whom he will immediately give all the offices ? — I think every 
 person must be under certain checks, vihether a CJovernor or anybody else. 
 I cannot exactly say in what way the Governor-general should be checked, 
 but there is a Parliament at home, and there is a Privy Council at home, and if 
 there were a ready means of appeal in this country, which there is not at the 
 present time, for I consider the natives of India are not heard by way of appeal, 
 and cannot get a hearing, but if there were a ready means of being heard, no 
 difficulty could possibly arise. People in this country suppose that there are no 
 grievances in India, because the grievances of India do not reach this country, 
 but the fact is, that there are just as many causes of complaint there as there 
 are in our other colonies. People are apt to argue, that because there are not 
 the same troubles and annoyances arising out of our possessions in India, as 
 out of our other colonies, there is no ground of complaint. The fact is, there 
 is no public in India ; our courts have no reporters, and have no barristers of 
 sufficient courage to see that justice is done by the judges; the consequence is, 
 
 0.10. M M 2 that
 
 276 :\1INUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lcwiii, Esq. th.it a mass of injustice prevails there which, if a commission were sent from 
 
 \ this country to In(ha, it would discover wliat would perfectly astonish the 
 
 a8 April 1853. jjeople of this country. So completely is that the case, that I am satisfied the 
 
 people of England, if they knew what goes on in India, would not aliow India 
 
 to be in the hands of the East India Company. 
 
 3057. What check would you propose, in such a state of society, which should 
 prevent a Governor from appointing his own friends and relations to all the 
 offices in his gift ? —Every Governor-general is supposed to be a man of some 
 conscience and some morality. The question rather assumes, that I am in pos- 
 session of and able to jjrovide those checks. ] think when Parliament appoint a 
 Governor-general they i)lace him under certain checks, and it is for them to see 
 that those checks are carried out. 
 
 3058. Are not your complaints directed against the great misconduct of a 
 Governor at Madras I — Yes. 
 
 30.')9. Supposing Lord Tweeddale, against whom you bring those accusations, 
 had possessed boundless power of selecting any person whatever that he pleased 
 to fill any office, however high or lucrative, which is now in the gift of the 
 Company, do you conceive that that would have been an improvement in the 
 Government of India ? — ]My answer did not assume that there was a state of 
 things at present, under which you could obtain men capable of filling all those 
 liigh offices. I say that a state of things will arise, and a competition lor 
 employment will arise, which will enable you to find persons competent to fill 
 al those offices. 
 
 3060. If the Governors in India are to be at libert)' to appoint any person 
 whatever without any check, is there any reason to believe that )'0U can provide 
 a check which will prevent jobbing, or the distribution of patronage among 
 their own relations ? — I really cannot speak as to the morality of jjublic men ; 
 we no doubt see a great deal of immorality and a great deal of jobbing among 
 them ; that is evident to every man who does not shut his eyes to it. 
 
 3061. Can you show the Committee any reason for believing that the aboli- 
 tion of the civil service would produce a purer distribution of patronage in 
 India ? — 1 do not know how to answer the question, as to the introduction of a 
 purer system of distributing patronage. In England the highest offices are 
 filled without the necessity of men going through Ilaileyburj' or otherwise ; 
 men are found fit for them, and they are put into them at once ; and I am 
 satisfied that the same would arise in India. It would be for the benefit 
 
 •of India that Europeans should be induced to go out there. Capital would 
 be carried out, and Europeans would be scattered over the country, who would 
 prove of the greatest jjossible benefit to the country. 
 
 \>,oCri. Is it the fact that among many complaints which have been made of 
 the Indian Government, the charge of nepotism has ever been much brought 
 against ttiose who administer the Government in India ? — I have never heard the 
 charge particularly Ijrought. 
 
 3063. Are not you aware that it has been brought to a great extent against 
 the distril)ution of j)ationage in England, through all orders and classes ? — Tlie 
 Scripture says lie who neglects kith and kin is worse than an infidel; I do not 
 su{)i)ose n^.en in India are better or worse tlian they are here. 
 
 3064. Is not the system one which, by confining the (iovernor-general in his 
 choice of agents to a select service, makes it almost impossible for him, what- 
 ever his inclinations may be, to indulge in nepotism ? — if you engage to send 
 out a fit civil service to the Governor-general, of course that would be the best 
 thing; but if youi| do not send out a fit civil service, and if you send out 
 unfit 111(11, and force him to the emiiloyiiieiit of them whether they are fit or 
 unfit, I tliink the (uvil servici' cannot Ix; defended. 
 
 306.'). In your opinion, is not the present system, whatever its other defects 
 may be, a great security against nepotism on the part of the Tiovcrnors of 
 India • — Certainly : if you fill situations by other means, which might be filled 
 under the system of nepotism, it is a check to it; it is a phy.sical check, not a 
 moral check. 
 
 3()ti6. Mr. Jfanlin/f('.] You state that the natives cannot obtain a hearing 
 for their appeals; did you think it your duty to take the opjiortunity when in 
 India, before you were dismissed, and while you were on the bench, to write to 
 the Government and expose the evils of the system ? — No ; I did not think so ; 
 
 I have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 I have written in a great many nevvsi)apers for tlic last •_'() years ; tluie is 
 scarcely a grievance that I havt^ not exposed in one way or other. 
 
 3067. Sir I\. II . Jnqlis.'] Rut not to your iniincdiatf siijK'riors, who had tlic 
 power of correcting such al)uses r — If you will state what al)uses you allude to, 
 I will give a categorical answer. 
 
 306S. Your statement was general, that you had exposed ahuses fre([uently 
 by letters in the jjublie newspapers ; the Committee would be glad to know 
 whether you represented su(;h abuses to the authorities competent to redress 
 them, or whether you eoufiued yourself to writing letters in the public news- 
 papers ? — May I be informed what is meant by '" authorities competent to 
 redress them" ? 
 
 30(39. I ])resume you cannot have been a judije in India without being aware 
 that, at all events, you had one superior there, namely, the Governor in 
 Council ; you cannot have been a judge so long in India without being aware 
 that there was an appeal from anv decision of yourself or anv other judge to 
 the tlueen in Council ; have you ever represented any grievance which }ou 
 may have observed to your immediate superior, the Governor in Council of 
 your own presidencv, or have you taken means that such grievance should be 
 brought by ap])eal before the competent authority in England, namel}-, the 
 Queen in Council ? — I have been a collector for some years, and I have been 
 a judge iov some years ; I have been in the haljit of writing annual reports on 
 the assessments, and I have been in the habit of writing reports of my circuit 
 proceedings. On those occasions I have represented such circumstances as I 
 thought necessary to represent to the Government ; but I must observe this, 
 that every civil servant of the Company is not supposed to be a critic of the 
 proceedings of the Government, nor ani I aware that a civil servant has the 
 power, or that he would be in his place, if he were to bring to light tliose cir- 
 cumstances. We have a Government at home and one' in India, and they call 
 for reports, and are supposed to be persons whose duty it is to provide for the 
 government of the country in all its departments. 
 
 3070. Did you or did you not think it your duty to act the part of a critic 
 in reference to certain transactions by addressing conununications on the sub- 
 ject to the public jjress .'—Wherever I have thought I could justly bring a fact 
 to the notice of the Government I have done so. 
 
 307 1 . You have I'eferred generally to your having addressed communications 
 to the different public papers on the subject of certain grievances. The (piestion 
 addressed to you was a simple one. Have you or have )ou not felt it to be your 
 duty equally to make representations of such grievances to your immediate 
 superiors ? — I have felt it my duty and have acted upon that sense of duty, to 
 represent such grievances as I have had occasion to represent. I have seized 
 the opportunity of representing them according to the rules and system of the 
 sex'vice. 
 
 3072. Mr. Hfirdinr/e.~\ Did you correspond anonymously in the newspapers, 
 or did you write letters with your signature to them r — I frequently wrote 
 editorials in the newspapers, and I also wrote letters. 
 
 3073. You would not take upon yourself the responsibility of writing any- 
 
 thing under vour 
 
 own sisiuature, brimring any charges 
 
 agamst 
 
 the Govern- 
 
 ment, but you did it by certain anonymous letters and editorial articles ? — 1 am 
 informed that Ministers as well as others write themselves, and emjiloy others 
 to write in the newspai)ers. I have done the same thing that they have done, 
 but not worse than that. 
 
 3074. 8ir 7'. //. Maddorli.'] AVas not that practice, when you were in India, 
 prohibited by the orders of the Cotu-t of Directors r — I think it was iirohibited, 
 and I rather think that in that respect I have disobeyed the orders of the Court 
 of Directors in a great many instances. 
 
 307.';. Mr. Sjmoticr.] You have stated that yo\i have made remonstranci's to 
 your superiors of such a nature as you thought you were called on to make ; 
 will you state what were tiie remonstrances, to whom they were made, and 
 when thev were made r — I have written a great many circuit reports, and a 
 l^reat many reports on the annual assessments. 1 cannot call to mind the con- 
 tents of any one of them. 
 
 3076. Can you call to mind any one grievance that you have ever officially 
 pointed out to your superiors .' — I cannot at this momerit. 
 
 M. Leifiii, lisq. 
 i8 .Xpril iSjj. 
 
 O.IO. 
 
 M M 
 
 Sir
 
 27S MJNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Letein, Esq. 3077- ^ii' ^- ^- I>ifff !>>'■] Vouliave been content with makin,£^them generally 
 
 in the newspapers without bringing them formall}' to the notice of those who 
 
 1 8 April 1853. could redress them '! — I will not say that I have been contented with doing so. 
 I say I have not been content wath representing anything except in a regular 
 manner. 
 
 307S. Mr. Manffles.] You said that the Court of Directors were afraid to 
 administer justice between the Marquis of Tweeddale, as Governor, and the 
 Sudder Court, with whom he differed. What is your ground for thinking they 
 were afraid to do so ? — I think the Marquis of Tweeddale's proceedings, on the 
 showing of the Court, were proceedings which were not those of a man of 
 honour and a gentleman ; the Court's own proceedings show that. 
 
 3079. Why do you think the Court were afraid to administer justice ? — Be- 
 cause they did not do it, and I could infer no other motive but that the 
 ^larquis of Tweeddale was a brother-in-law of Lord Broughton and a near 
 relation to the Duke of Wellington. 
 ' ' 3080. What were the Court of Directors afraid of ? — They might have been 
 
 afraid in the same way that they were in the case of Sir Charles Napier, when 
 they refused to send him out as Commander-in-Chief; Lord John Russell went 
 down to the House of Commons and threatened them ; they immediately gave 
 way, and, against their own opinion, sent him out. 
 
 3081. Sir R. H. ItigUs.] On what authority do you make to the Committee 
 the statement which has been taken down in your last answer, that Lord John 
 Russell went down to the House of Commons and threatened the Court of 
 Directors, and that thereupon the Court of Directors sent out Sir Charles Napier 
 against their own opinions ? — It was notorious that Sir Charles Napier had 
 been proposed ; it was notorious also at the India House that he had been 
 rejected by the Court of Directors ; it was notorious to every one that Lord 
 John Russell went down to the House of Commons ; I cannot exactly say what 
 he said now, I have not perfectly in my recollection what he said, but he 
 proposed to take some measures Avhich would force Sir Charles Napier upon 
 them ; they instantly gave way. I must beg to observe that I brought this 
 before the Court of Proprietors some time ago, and I believe there is no doubt 
 of the fact. 
 
 3082. Mr. Mac(ndai/.] The fear felt by the Court, you think, in this case was 
 a fear of the House of Commons : — The House of Commons, I take for granted, 
 are the Government in all these matters ; Lord John Russell was Prime Minister, 
 and I suppose if he had proposed at that time to bring in a Bill to overset the 
 Court of i.)irectors he would have had no difficulty in doing it. 
 
 3083. Sir yV. IJ. I/ig/is.] Do you allude to a public or a private statement of 
 Lord John Russell ? — A public one. 
 
 30S4. One which will be found in the debates ? — Yes. 
 
 308.5. Mr. Macaulai/.'i Is not it intended that all bodies who have any 
 authoi'ity in the Government of this country should stand in awe of the House 
 of Commons, and should feel themselves under responsibility to Parliament ? — 
 I think it is not intended that any man should do what is contrary to his 
 conscience. No doubt if the Court of Directors thought Sir Charles Napier was 
 unfit to take the reins as Couunandcr-in-Chief it was their duty to abide by 
 their opinion, and take the consequences. 1 did that in the case of the Marquis 
 of Tweeddale ; he sent an order to the court which was derogatory to him and 
 to the court ; the order was objected to ; we appealed against it, and we got it 
 cancelled. 
 
 3086. Your charge against the Court of Directors is that they will not do 
 justice from fear of the Governor, and the powerful connexions of the Governor 
 in England r — That is exactly what I say. 
 
 3087. Then what remedy in the way of improving the administration of 
 justice do you contemplate from removing the Court of Directors, and leaving 
 the Governors and their i)owcrful connexions in England without their control r 
 —You cannot attnin perfection anywhere;, l)ut if sufficient care is taken in the 
 selection of the persons who are sent out to India, all will be done tiiat can be 
 done. 
 
 3088. Would not that be the case if the Directors remained, cfjual care being 
 taken in the selection of the persons they sent out ? — I «lo not think it would 
 be the case to the same extent as if the power were in the hands of the 
 Government. 
 
 3080. Your
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 279 
 
 3oSy. Your charge against the Directors is, that they have acted unjusth- 
 under the fear of the Government ? — The fact is that the Governors who are 
 sent out, are often unfit men ; they are nominated by the Court of Directors ; 
 the responsibility is with the Court of Directors. 
 
 3090. Are not thev praeticallv nominated by the Crown?- -I really cannot 
 tell. 
 
 3091 . Is it not your belief that the nominiition of the Marquis of Tweeddale 
 proceeded from the Board of Control ? — Yes, the nomination came from that 
 Board ; but I beli(!ve the Court might have prevented his being appointed. 
 
 30()i.'. Must not they in any case have taken some person recommended to 
 them by the Crown ?- I am not aware of that. 
 
 3093. Sir R. II. Lifflh-.] Do you or do you not believe that those nomina- 
 tions are made with the consent of the ( iovernment of the day, and that without 
 their consent such nominations have rarely, if ever, been successful? — I cannot 
 answer tliat cjuestion with any certainty, but it doe.s not alter what I said before, 
 that if a bad person is proposed to them, it is their duty to reject him. 
 
 3094. Do you know any instance in history within the last 50 years, in which 
 the Court of Directors have rejected a person in whom they had not confidence ? 
 — No, I do not know an instance of it. 
 
 3095. With respect to the recall of a Governor-genei'al, would you consider 
 that that was an instance of cowardice or boldness ? — I am not sufficiently 
 acquainted with all the circumstances of the case to give anything mor<'. than 
 an opinion, but my own opinion is that Lord Ellenborough was recalled from 
 private motives entirely. 1 believe he was a very independent man, and if he 
 had remained in India I have not the smallest doubt he would have conferred 
 the greatest benefits on India. He disagreed with the Court of Directors ; he 
 was insulting to them, I believe ; and I understand they said they could not 
 get on with him because of his insubordination. There were other circum- 
 stances, I believe, but I am not perfectly certain of all the facts ; I only know 
 that one of the best Governors who ever went to India, was recalled simply 
 from a personal quarrel with the Court ; I believe tliat to be the fact* I will not 
 say that it was so 
 
 3096. Mr. Mdcaulay.^ You do not conceive that in that instance the Court 
 of Directors showed fear, either of the Governor-general, or of the very power- 
 ful persons with whom he was connected in England ?- Everyone knows that 
 private pique is a more powerful motive than any other with some men. 
 
 3097. Mr. V. Simth.~\ What is your opinion as to the present mixed power 
 of appointment and recall in the Court of Directors and the Crown ? — I think 
 that the Court of Directors should not have the power they now have. 
 
 3098. You think it should vest entirely in the Crown ? — Yes. 
 
 3099. Both the power of appointment and of recall ? — Y'^es. 
 
 3 i 00. In the course of your examination on a previous day, in answer to the 
 last question put to you, you said that " the object of the Governor in sending 
 the order to the Sudder Court, vvas to induce that court to pass unjust decisions, 
 in cases in which Christians and heathens, as he called them, were concerned." 
 Can you elucidate to this (yommittee, in any manner or by any facts, why you 
 state that that was the object of the Governor, or did you make that statement 
 only from your general impression of the conduct of the Governor ? — The order 
 which I alluded to is this : " Extract from the Minutes of Consultation, under 
 date the 19th May 184G. He resolves at the same time, with the view of 
 placing on the records of Government authentic information on the subject 
 matter of these petitions" (1 may observe that there were no petitions ; this 
 was entirely a fiction; "to direct the Court of Foujdaree Adawlut to lay before 
 the Government copies of the calendars, and of the evidence taken in the Session 
 Court, with the sentences of that court, in the several recent cases which have 
 come before the Foujdaree Adawlut from the province of Tinnevelly, in which 
 native Christians have been prosecutors and heathens the accused. The court 
 will also be pleased to report, in each case, by what judge or judges of their 
 court the final sentence or order was passed, together with the sentence itself, 
 and the grounds thereof; also, the name of the head of police, and of the officers 
 in the magistrate's department who investigated the eases in the first in.stance, 
 and forwarded them to the Court of the Principal Sudder Amin." This is not 
 the original order, it is a copy which was made in the office by a clerk in the 
 office. 
 
 0.10. M M 4 3101. Will 
 
 M. Lewiii, E^q 
 18 April 185 J.
 
 28o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOIIE THE 
 
 M. Lcivin, Esq. 3it'i- ^Vill )■"" point out in that order the words in which the Governor 
 . endeavours to induce the court to pass unjust decisions r — I cannot do it by 
 
 18 Api-il 1853. a word. The oi'der is an unusual one ; no such order was ever before ad- 
 dressed to the Sudder Court, nor have I ever heard of an order in which the 
 parties to a suit are described as Christians and heathens. 1 think that the 
 term "heathen," here, which is an opprobrious term, as every one knows, is quite 
 sufficient to indicate the animus of the Governor ; but if that is not sufficient 
 to indicate the animus of the (lovernor, I shall be ready to show other papers, 
 which I think will prove it completel)'. 
 
 ;,io-2. Your opinion to that effect is derived from the extraordinary nature 
 of the order, and from your opinion of the ordinary practice of the Govern- 
 ment '. — -Yes. 
 
 3103. Viscount Jocc/j/)t.] What ground have you for stating that there were no 
 such petitions?— All the petitions which were before the Government have been 
 in m\' hands since, and 1 have seen all the orders which were passed upon 
 them in the handwriting of the different members of Government, and those 
 petitions I know were petitions which were presented not against the Sudder 
 Court's proceedings, but against the magistrate's proceedings who was the 
 leader of the ^lissionary party, and whose proceedings were condemned by the 
 Sudder Adawlut as being jjerfectly illegal and improper. 
 
 31 04. You admit then that there were petitions ? — There were petitions upon 
 
 hi another subject ; it was a subject unconnected with this almost. There wen- 
 
 ' ' ' petitions against the illegal proceedings of the magistrate of Tinncvelly who 
 
 ; was a brother of the chief secretary, and they were both of them leaders of 
 
 • I i the Missionary party. Those petitions had all been disposed of, and I believe 1 
 
 have copies of them in my possession at this moinent. It clearly apppears that 
 they had all been disposed of. 
 
 3105. It is stated "he resolves at the same time, with the view of placing 
 on the records of Government authentic information on the subject matter of 
 these petitions, to direct the Court of Foujdaree Adawlut to lay before the 
 Government copies of the calendars, and of the evidence taken in the Session 
 Court, with the sentences of that covu't ; " what were those petitions r — The 
 inference from that order was, that there had been petitions against the 
 Sudder Adawlut. There had been none. The only petitions which had been 
 presented to the Government were petitions which had been presented against 
 the magistrate's proceedings ; those petitions had been disposed of. 
 
 3106. Mr. Mitcanluy.~\ There were petitions before the Government relating 
 to some disputes which had arisen respecting dealings between Christians and 
 heathens? — I do not mean to say that this was an entire fabrication, and that 
 there was no ground for saying that there had been petitions, because there 
 had been i)etitioiis. Those petitions had been presented to the Government 
 against, not the Sudder Adawlut, nor \\ith any reference to that court, but 
 against the magistrate of Tinnevelly. 
 
 3107. The words of the Governor are merely that he calls for this informa- 
 tion " with the view of placing on the records of Goverinneut authentic infor- 
 mation on the subject matter of these petitions ; " is there anything in those 
 words which im])lied that the petitions contained any chargi' against the Court 
 of Foujdaree Adawlut ?^ — If there had been any petitions at that time undis- 
 posed of, I should think there were grounds for inserting that, but I know that 
 it was a mere pretence. I have had in my possession all the ])etitions which 
 were presented at that time, and I ;im aware that the case had I)een wiiolh 
 disposed of. 
 
 31ns. Was not it competent to the Government, if they wished to have 
 authentic information on so imjjortant a sul)ject as the relation between persons 
 of different religions under their government, to call for any information which 
 would tend to illustrate it ? — Undoubtedly ; but it was not competent to the 
 Government to stigmatise persons who came to tliat court for redress as 
 heathens. 
 
 31 or). Then 30U adniit that there were ])etitions which miglit warrant the 
 Government in (tailing for autlientic information with regard to (hsputcs between 
 persons of different religions ? — There had been petitions, but I will not allow- 
 that then- were p(>titions then, I)ecause thev had been disposed of; a jjctition 
 im])lies a thing which is in operation, not wiiich is past. 
 
 3110. Is not it penuitted to any subject of om- Government in India to 
 
 petition.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 281 
 
 petition, in any manner, the (iovcini)r-geueral in Council r~Of course it is ; I M.LcKin, Esq. 
 
 suppose so at least. 
 
 3111. May not a i^overnnient wliieli wishes to obtain information with regard '^ April 1853. 
 to tlie subjecl-niatler of those petitions, call for an\ information from any 
 official quarter .' — Certainly ; hut it is a remarkahle fact that, in this instance 
 no information was called for till some of the cases had lieen disposed of; as 
 soon as the eases had l)een so disposed of, then the information was called for, 
 but not till then. 
 
 ;;ii2. You stated that the Ciovernment sent this order for tlie i)urp()se of 
 inducing the Court of Foujdaree Adawlut to do injustice r — Undoubtedly I 
 stated that. 
 
 31 13. From what words do you infer that r — I do not infer it from the order 
 alone; I infer it from other proceedings. Immediately on the order coming, 
 the first judge of the Sudder Adawlut, Mr. Waters, who was one of the pious 
 party who was assisting the Christians against the heathens, immediately took 
 the cases which came before the Sudder into his hands, and he kept them 
 there, and against the law wished to pass some heavy sentences of fine and 
 imin'isonment ; he kept them in his hands for seven months. Lord Tweeddale was 
 appealed to; the court said, '•This first judge has set our authority at nought." 
 Two letters were addressed to the Governor ; the Governor took no notice of 
 those letters, but instead of that entered into a clandestine correspondence with 
 this man ; u])on this clandestine correspondence the Government wrote to the 
 Sudder Adawlut and rejn-imanded them, upon which occasion, I wrote a minute 
 to the Government, whicii I will read with the permission of the Committee. 
 
 3 11 4. I observe that you yourself in your last ansvi'er naturally used the 
 word " heathens"? — 1 have expressly on several former occasions objected to 
 the use of the word " heathen." 
 
 31 i.v You yourself used it in your last answer r — Merely quoting it. 
 3u(). Was this despatch a despatch which was hkely in any case to have 
 been seen by any person whose feelings the word " heat!ien " in English could 
 have offended ? — 1 think that that is a despatch which would not be received 
 by any court in England. 
 
 3117. Is it a despatch which was likely to be seen by any person whose feel- 
 ings would have been wounded by the word, " heathen "? — It would have 
 circulated immediately through the country. 
 
 3118. With the word, " heathen " in it? — Y^es. 
 
 3119. Was the word, "heathen" one which would be understood by the 
 body of Pagan natives of India, as being a word of reflection upon them ? — 
 Not by the lowest classes, but it was understood by a sufficient number who 
 would impart that information to the lowest classes. 
 
 3120. Are despatches of that sort generally published among the popula- 
 tion ? — No ; I do not know that they are. 
 
 3 1 2 1 . What number of natives were likely to read this despatch in Enghsh r 
 — I think it is probable that the despatch w ould have been seen by 40 or 50 in 
 the Sudder Adawlut. 
 
 3122. Natives? — Natives, and half-castes. 
 
 3123. Half-castes are not heathens, generally, are they? — No. 
 
 3124. By what number of persons, who would have luiderstood that word as 
 a reflection, is it probable that this despatch would ever have been seen '! — 
 That is a very large and comprehensive question, which I can scarcely answer ; 
 I am quite certain that it would have been circulated among them as an 
 intended insult, even whether it was intended or not. If it was not intended 
 as an insult, all I know is, that the word " heathen " conveys an insult. 
 
 3125. What word would you have used? — Hindoos. 
 
 3126. A Hindoo may be a Christian? — He may. 
 
 3127. The question was between a converted Hindoo, and a Hindoo adhering 
 still to the religion of his fuicestors ; would you say between a Christian and 
 a Hindoo, when in fact both were Hindoos ? — I onh' know that this word 
 had never been used before, and I should certainly not have used the word 
 myself. 
 
 3128. Mr. V. Smith.] This was the first time you had ever seen that word 
 used? — It is the first time it has ever been used by Government; it was once 
 used by a gentleman in Court, Mr. Cassamajor ; I objected to the use of it then, 
 and recorded a minute against it. 
 
 0.1 ;>. N N 3129. Mr.
 
 282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M.Leann, Esq. 3' 29. ^[r. MacanJaij.^ What word would you have proposed to use : — The 
 
 word which hitherto had been in use was that of Hindoos. A Hindoo Christian 
 
 i8 April 1853. is a Christian convert from liindooism ; a Hindoo is a person of the Hindoo faith. 
 
 3130. But, supposing the Christian was also a Hindoo, how could j'ou say 
 that a Christian was on one side and a Hindoo was on the other ? — If it were 
 merely an abstract logical disquisition I should agree with the Honourable 
 Member, l)ut I view it as a question which arises out of the animus of the 
 parties, and therefore I entirely disagree with him. I sa}% in that particular 
 instance, from particular circumstances, an animus is indicated on the pai't of 
 the Christians against the Hindoos, and we must take into consideration that 
 the judge, Mr. AN'aters, was in clandestine correspondence with the Govern- 
 ment, and that he desired, at the same time, to inflict stripes and imprison- 
 ment and transportation upon men who were not liable to such punishment, 
 and whom I kne\v to be not liable to it. The judges who were appointed after 
 me concurred in my vitvvs, and released all the men ; at least, they punished 
 them so lightly that there was not a single case that came to the Sudder 
 Adawlut, which was not within the jurisdiction of the lower courts. 
 
 3131. Sir R. li. Inglis.'] Without entering into the latter part of your 
 answer, will you be pleased to state, to the Committee whether the matter in 
 issue were or were not a question of inheritance forfeited by conversion ? — 
 I never heard that it had the slightest to do with it. 
 
 3132. Was it a mere question of assault between those individuals, without 
 reference to their religion ? — It was a religious question entirely ; missionaries 
 were endeavouring to convert the Hindoos to Christianit}^ ; disputes arose out 
 of this, and the faults were probably as much on one side as the other. The 
 missionaries who took ])art with the Christians stirred them up to make out- 
 rageous coiiiplaints against the Hindoos, and they resorted to the very worst 
 crimes in order to prove them ; in proof of which, in one of those Christian 
 cases which was sent up to the Sudder Adawlut, the sessions judge, before it 
 reached us, had sentenced three of the witnesses to punishment for perjury. 
 
 3133*. Was the sentence upon such Christian witnesses reversed or con- 
 firmed? — It did not come before the Sudder Adawlut on appeal in any way ; 
 it was not referable to the Sudder Adawlut ; the sessions judge has the power 
 of sentencing for perjury. 
 
 3 1 34. Then is this one of those cases in which the decision was reversed r 
 — Yes, it is one of those cases. 
 
 313,')- What was the punishment inflicted by the Superior ('ourt in the case 
 you have mentioned ? — 1 cannot remember what was the precise punishment, 
 but I know that in no case was the punishment carried beyond three years' 
 imprisonment. 
 
 3136. Mr. irddjard.] You stated that some of your communications to the 
 newspapers were in the form of letters, and that some were editorial observa- 
 tions. Are the Committee to understand that you were interested, as the editor 
 of any newsi)aper? — Certainly not. 
 
 3137. What do you mean by editorial articles r — Leading articles in a news- 
 paper. 
 
 3138. Written by yourself, as an amateur r — As an amateur. 
 
 3139. Were you at that time acting as a judge ? — As far as I recollect, while 
 1 was a judge, i did not write on any matter connected with the court. 
 
 3140. Did you write such articles at all while you were a judge ? — -I can- 
 not say. 
 
 3141. Would your doing so have been in direct contravention of the regu- 
 lations of the Company .' — It would depend entirely iqjon the nature of the 
 subject. 
 
 3142. Did you write any political article ? — If it was an inoffensive article, 
 there wovdd have been no objection to my writing in that \va)-, whether i was 
 a judge or not. 
 
 3143. Did you writi' any politi(!al article during the time you were acting as 
 a judge r — 1 think very likely ; I have written a great many. I cannot recollect 
 whether I was judge or not. I do not wish to evade the question, because I 
 dare say I have done so. 
 
 .'}i44. Vou have spoken three or four times of clandestine correspondence; 
 what are the Committee to understand by that word, applied as you have ap- 
 plied it ? — The first judge, who wished to punish the heathens, as I before stated, 
 
 and
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 283 
 
 and who knew that the Government sided with him, immediately wrote secret M. Lewin, Esq. 
 
 letters to the Government. The Government had no right to act upon those ■ 
 
 letters; no court in India has a power legally oT passing judgment in any case '^ ^P"' '^53- 
 unless the papers and proceedings are fully Ijefon^ it. Those secret communi- 
 cations which I have here were not only acted on, l)ut they were made the basis 
 of a reproof to the court. 
 
 314.5. Mr. Elliof.'] Were tiiose secret letters which you speak of written to 
 the Governor or to the Government r— To the Government. 
 
 3146. In the secret department? — No. The first judge had no right to 
 write any letters whatever ; it was contrary to the rules of tlie ctourt ; he might 
 have sent letters through the court, but he had no business to write privately. 
 
 3147. Having written those letters, would they be in the pul)lic department 
 or in the judicial department, or would they be in the secret department : — I 
 do not know what a Government, who acts irregularl}- in one instance, would do 
 in another. 
 
 3148. If they were in the judicial department they would not be secret? — 
 I cannot tell what the Government might have done. I cannot answer for any- 
 thing that Lord Tweeddale would do. 
 
 3149. You have stated that they were seci'et letters; how do \ou know that 
 they were seciet letters ? — Lord Tweeddale, when I taxed him with carrying on a 
 secret correspondence, said, my statement had no foundation whatever. Mean- 
 while other representations reached the Court of Dii-ectors, to which their 
 reply said, that Lord Tweeddale "should have sent back the secret accusations." 
 
 3150. Mr. Hume.'] Are you referring to a despatch of the Court of Direc- 
 tors r^ — ^Yes. 
 
 3 1 .5 1 . Do you mean that the Court of Directors declared that correspondence 
 to be a secret one ? — Yes : I quote their words. 
 
 31.52. Mr. Elliot.] With regard to the letters and articles which you pub- 
 lished in the newspapers, were they generally in support of the Government, 
 or in opposition to the Government ? — According to the circumstances of the 
 case. 
 
 3153. They were sometimes in opposition to the Government r— Certainly. 
 
 31.54. Do you think that it is consistent with the position of a public 
 functionary, holding a high office, to carry on a correspondence in a newspaper 
 conti-ary to the government which he serves ? — I think it is not consistent with 
 the character of a high public officer to be a slave. 
 
 315.5. Do you think it is consistent with the position of a public functionarv, 
 holding a high office, to carry on a correspondence in a newspaper contrary to 
 the government which he serves ? — I think it is inconsistent with his duty. 
 
 3156. Mr. Ilwiie.] Is it not a regulation of the East India Comjjany, that 
 no public officer shall write a letter in a public newspaper on any subject ? — 
 There are some regulations ; I do not recollect the purport of them. 
 
 3157. Mr. ElUot.^ You admitted in an early part of your examination, that 
 there was a rule prohibiting public officers from corresponding in the news- 
 papers ? — I do not think 1 said it was a general rule ; I think the question 
 referred to some proceeding of the Court. 
 
 31,58. Sir T. II. Maddoclc] Did you write anonymously in consequence of 
 any prohibition on the part of the (jiovernment against their officers wi-iting 
 under their own names ? — Very likely I did ; but I was driven to write 
 anonymously probably for the same reasons which induce people to write 
 anonymously in England sometimes. 
 
 3150. Have }'ou ever written anonymously any articles in favour of the 
 Government ? — Yes ; I have. 
 
 3160. Mr. Hardinge.] Have j'ou any objection to state whether you ever 
 told the natives, either by word of mouth or in writing, that the Government 
 of Madras was seeking to convert them by force, or to bring about their con- 
 version by impi'oper means ? — When I was removed from iny office the natives 
 convened a meeting through the shei'iff, at which about TjO-OOO pei'sons 
 attended, and presented an address to ine. I was then removed from office, 
 and I considered myself at perfect liberty to speak my sentiments. I did not 
 expect justice either in India or at the Court of Directors ; and I considered 
 myself perfectly free in every way. They presented an address to me, and in 
 answer to the address I stated ni}' impressions in full. Afterwards, when 1 
 left the service, they convened another meeting and voted me a service of 
 
 0.10. N N 2 plate.
 
 284 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Ji/. Lndn, Esq. plate. In answer to the address presented to nie b}' the natives, I stated as 
 
 follows : " But the natives of the country must not suppose that the treatment 
 
 iS April 1853. J have received is the true index of the feeling of the British nation towards 
 them, nor need they doubt that their complaints will be listened to by the 
 home authorities, and their grievances redressed. The Government of Great 
 Britain is in the hands of a body of enlightened Ministers of the State, who 
 hold the Christian religion in as high esteem as anv party in Madras; but they 
 would not disseminate their religion by means of violence, nor by the less 
 worthy expedients of tampering with the justice of the country. Had the 
 Government met with no resistance in their attempt to coerce the judges of 
 the Sudder Court into measures fatal to impartial justice, it is probable the 
 next attempt would have been an open and undisguised one, to force Chris- 
 tianity upon the Hindus. Although the Marquis of Tweeddale has disclaimed 
 these views, experience has abundantly proved that there are jiarties connected 
 with the Government who had the will and the means to carry them out. The 
 conduct of the Government towai'ds the Sudder Covu-t forced the judges to 
 resist an order which no judge who knew his duty could sul)mit to ; that 
 resistance was foreseen and calculated upon by the advisers of the Government, 
 and there can l)e no doubt it was the first step of a scheme which was devised 
 for the removal of the second judge, who had been more than once obliged 
 to inform the Government that he was prepared, at all hazards, to uphold 
 the integrity of his court, and to prevent its being made an instrument of 
 injustice." 
 
 3161. Sh' R. H. Ingiis.'] Where were the 50,000 natives assembled? — It is 
 stated in that pamphlet. 
 
 3162. Are you certain as to the numbei'S? — I did not count them and 
 therefore I cannot say I am certain ; but I have no doubt of the fact, because 
 the address was signed by 17,000, and the Government also thought it 
 necessary in consequence to assemble one or two regiments to prevent any evil 
 consequences. 
 
 31(1;^,. Though not in office at the time, were you in the service oTthe Com- 
 pany ? — 1 was in the service. 
 
 3164. You were in the service of the Company at the time when the pro- 
 ceediuETS connected with vourself and the meetini? vou addressed excited such 
 alarm, that the Government had a military force in readiness to check the 
 further progress of such proceedings ? — Yes ; the address was jiresented to me 
 nearly a month after the meeting, when my re])ly to it was given ; about the 
 meeting itself 1 knew nothing but what everybody else knew. 
 
 3165. Chairm(m.~\ You are aware of a petition which was presented to the 
 House of Commons from Madras, stating the grievances which existed among 
 the natives, are you not ? — The natives forwarded the petition to me, with a 
 request that I wovdd cause it be presented. 
 
 i>j\'M'). Uo you agree in the statements of that petition generally, with 
 respect to the judicial system .' — 1 believe I do agree generally with them, not 
 merely as to the judicial dei)artment, but as to the revenue department also. 
 
 3 1 ()7. With nsiiect to the judicial system, that is a statement of the grievances 
 which you think exist in Madras? — Yes. 
 
 3168. Viscount Jocclyn?] Do you know at all how that petition was got up? 
 — It was got up entirely in India ; that I know. 1 do not know how it was got 
 up. I know the chairman of the association very well, ;ui(l 1 have corres- 
 ponded with him about it. \Vhen the petition I'eached me I had never seen 
 or heard a word of it. 
 
 3169. Who was the chairman of the association ? — 
 
 3170. Mr. Elliot.] Were there any Europeans in the association at Madras? 
 —No ; the only iMirojjean who could have had anything to do with the ix'titiou 
 was the editor of a newspaper, which belongs to the person I mention. I think 
 it is very likely he had something to do with it, but the contents of the i)etition 
 are of such a nature that [ am perfectly certain they could not have been 
 supplied by any other than l)y natives. 
 
 3171- Viscount JrttY'/y«.] Do you recognise many of the names attached to 
 that jietition ? — Ves, some of them. 
 
 3172. Mr. Elliot.'] You say some previous correspondence had occurred with 
 you before the petition came liome ; what was the nature of that corre- 
 spondence ''. — I had one letter requesting me to cause a minor petition to be 
 
 presented,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON IXDIAX TERRITORIES. 285 
 
 presented, requesting? delay till ji lari^cr ])ctition should come to Entcland ; it M.Leviin, "Esq. 
 
 stated the heads of their complaint, viz., the five sul)j(;cts to which the}' wished 
 
 to advert. I have written to them what I thouijht they oui^ht to do, with a view ^^ April i853- 
 to e:et their <i;rievanees redressed ; tiiat is since the petition came. 
 
 3173. Sir T. II. M<ul(lorlt.'\ Are you of opinion that the petition is the 
 composition of thi' natives ? — Not entirely so ; the chairman of that association 
 is just as able to write it as any gentleman in this I'oom, I imagine. He cor- 
 responded with me, and I can easily produce tlu^ lett(>rs ; lie is a very able 
 man. 
 
 3174. Viscount Jwre/y«.] Looking at the i)etition yourself, do you think it 
 was drawn up by natives or by a European ? — I think it nuist have been drawn 
 up by natives, and corrected afterwards by a European. 
 
 317.5. Mr. IIai-diii_(je.} Are you aw'are hov>' many natives in the Presidency 
 town signed it? — I am not ; 1 know none of the particulars of the petition. 
 
 317(1. Do you think it represents the feehngs of the natives of the Madras 
 Presidency ? — I have no doubt it does ; I have met with the same feelings out 
 of the Presidency. 
 
 3177. Do you or do you not think that such a petition might be got up in a 
 Presidency town without reference to the great body of the natives in the 
 Mofussil r — It is very difficult to answer a question of that kind ; I believe 
 addresses and petitions are very often got up in a very extraordinary manner, 
 and such a thing might liai)pen at IMadras; but I do not believe that people at 
 the Presidency would concoct a jietition which represented grievances which 
 entirely belonged to parts out of the Presidency ; those grievance are almost 
 entirely confined to the Mofussil. 
 
 3178. Sir J. JV. Hogg.'] From the internal evidence afforded by the docu- 
 ment itself, is it your opinion that that petition was drawn and prepared by 
 natives or by a Euro})ean .' — It is my opinion that the petition was prepared by 
 natives, and afterwards corrected by a European. 
 
 3179. Is not a great deal of the reasoning in that petition founded upon 
 documents laid before Parliament and other public official documents r — I 
 think it is ; but I have not read it very carefully. 
 
 31 So. Do you think that the natives of India in ]jreparing a petition, would 
 found their statements upon facts within their own knowledge, or upon puljlic 
 Parliamentary documents ? — The chairman of that association is a very able 
 man ; he has had an English education. I have been at his house, and 
 he has a library of English books containing several hundred volumes ; he is as 
 able as any gentleman in this room to write a letter, and thinks as much on 
 European suKjects as most gentlemen in this room do. 
 
 3181. Do you think th.at the natives of India, in preparing a petition, would 
 found their statements upon facts within their own knowledge, or upon public 
 Parliamentary documents? — I think they would found their petition upon facts 
 within their own knowledge, and if those facts were not sufficient for the 
 purpose, they would obtain facts from other quarters, such as were available to 
 them ; 1 think the contents of that petition, which do refer to documents, refer 
 to such as were quite within the reach of the jjetitioners, and such as they 
 would naturally allude to. I know one of them was a person of very consider- 
 able intelligence, and I do not think he would ]Hit before Parliament, or anv 
 one else, a document which was not sutiicient for its purpose, whether it required 
 native intelligence or European intelligence to perfect it. 
 
 31 82. Chairman.] Are the suggestions which you have made those which 
 you think would remove the grievances which are complained of in the admin- 
 istration of justice in India, or are there any otheis which you wish to bring 
 before the Committee ? — Before any man was appointed to the bench, I would 
 have it ascertained that he was sufficiently qualified ; I do not think it would 
 be at any time too late to examine a man who was going to be placed in the 
 Sudder Adawlut. I think wherever a jury is called in, its decision should not 
 be permitted to be set aside, except on grounds of ])artiality. 1 would also say 
 that I think the i)roceedings in our civil courts should be curtailed in some 
 degree ; they now proceed almost without limit, whereas in the Moonsifis Court 
 no proceeding goes beyond the ansuer- I think also there should be but one 
 Supreme Court in the country, and but one law in the country. I think the 
 subject of the salaries of judicial officers, and of native revenue officers, is a 
 very important one, and I think the native judicial oliicers should ]je ])laced, as 
 
 0.10. N N 3 much
 
 286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lewin, Esq. iiiuch as possible, in a situation of independence, and that tliey should be able, 
 
 by their salaries, to kee]) that position in society which persons of their own 
 
 18 April 1853. rank maintain. With respect to the native revenue officers, I think it is 
 essential for the country, both for its morality and its general welfare as a 
 country, that they should have larger salaries ; 1 consider that most of the 
 districts of Madras are, to a consideral^le degree, demoralised by the small 
 revenue salaries which the tehsildaars and, I believe, all the native servants in 
 the districts, are paid, so much below what the}- ought to be ; the consequence 
 is, that they make up by fraud and extortion what they ought to receive in the 
 way of salary. I think that the system of revenue has a great connexion with 
 the morality of the country ; I think there are systems of revenue in Madras 
 now which tend very greatly to sap the moraht}' of the country as well as to 
 im])overish it. 
 
 31 S3. Mr. Cobden.] in what way .' — By the system of collection, which is 
 called the ryotwar system ; under the annual assessment, every individual has 
 the power, if he can show cause, of getting a remission of his settlement ; the 
 estates ai-e small, and there are various causes for which remission can be 
 obtained. In consequence, it is very much the practice of people to set forth 
 causes of remission which do not exist ; that is as respects the cultivators 
 themselves, but as respects the service the system is carried on in some dis- 
 tricts in a way which cannot fail to produce the greatest immorality. For 
 example, at the beginning of a season there are what are called estimators, 
 men who go round the disti'ict and take a sort of general estimate of the crop ; 
 after that estimate is taken the party is allowed to carry away his crop and sell 
 it, but till the estimate is taken he cannot do it ; it is, of course, the interest 
 of all those persons to make out that there has been some deterioration in the 
 crop, by any means, such as want of irrigation, want of rain, or over assess- 
 ment. Tne tehsildars, who go about to make inquiries, have almost entirely 
 under their control the amount of assessment which is raised for the Govern- 
 ment in all ryotwar districts. The consequence is, that whenever those people 
 go to a village the first thing the ryots of the village do, is to endeavour to buy 
 them over to get a low assessment. 
 
 3184. Sir 1\ H. AJaddock.] In the scheme of Indian g^overnment which you 
 have suggested, it seems that the Governor-general and the Governors would 
 have to fill up all the vacancies in the civil service ; have you considered what 
 test of qualification would be necessary for the admission of persons into the 
 civil service ? — I think a test such as they have at the present time might be 
 very easily obtained for all the Presidencies ; I will not say that you would 
 have qualified men immediately, but I think you would before long ; of course 
 it would render necessary the extension of education in India, which, up to the 
 present time, has been entirely lost sight of. In Madras, by an Act of Par- 
 liament, the Government is obliged to spend 5,000 Z. per annum in education; 
 of that sum not half has been expended up to the present time ; and althougli 
 it might have beeu expended latterly, Lord Tweeddale would not allow the 
 money for education to be expended, because he could not have the Bible 
 introduced into the schools. He wrote a long minute, which he sent to the 
 Court of Directors ; whether it was an emanati(ju from his Lordship's own 
 mind or anybody else's, I cannot tell, but he stated in it what certainly was not 
 the fact, that the Bil)le would be received at all the schools, and that they 
 would be very hai)i)y to receive it. Tlie Court of Directors very properly 
 refused to allow it. 
 
 31 8.-,. Sir R. II. IiKjlis.'] Did Lord Tweeddale insist upon its Ijeing admitted, 
 or did he merely desire that a school which was willing to admit it should have 
 permission so to do? — I cannot remember the extent to which he went. 
 
 3iS(i. \'ou do not wish the Committee to inidcrstaiul that Lord Tweeddale 
 would have made an absolute requirement that the Bible should be introduced ? 
 — I do not know that those words were uttered by him ; but 1 know that, prac- 
 ticalU", that was the effect of it, and the progress of education was impeded in 
 consequence. 
 
 3187. Sir T. II. Maddock.] \\'ould you place any limit upon the selection of 
 men to fill situations in thf civil dci)artment, or would you leave it entirely 
 discretionary with the Governor-'^eiu'ral and the Governors ? — 1 would leave it 
 entirely discretionary with the Governors. It is my belief that if that were 
 done there wouhl be a civil service much more practical than there is at the 
 
 present
 
 SELECT COMMITTKI-: ON INDIAN TEUHITOKIKS. 287 
 
 present time, and in every respect as good ; avast number of men would come M. Lenin, E«q. 
 
 into the service who have had experience of India, and who vvoukl have liad a 
 
 much better experienc'e tliau many of the civil servants have now. Many of 1^ ^P"' 1853. 
 
 the civil servants now have no exi)erience whatever ; they do not know a word of 
 
 the English language very often ; they have had no intercourse with the natives, 
 
 and they are not men, in many instances, of supei-ior education. I Ijelieve, as 
 
 I stated the other day, that the civil service, instead of advancing under the 
 
 College of Haileybury, has rather retrogaded ; indeed I am convinced of it. 
 
 3i!S8. Mr. Mmigles] You stated on Thursday, tliat integrity was rather, in 
 your opinion, on the side of the native than of the lun'opean judges ; was that 
 opinion a general one, or confined to jjarticular times and y)laees? — 1 gave that ■ 
 opinion with reference to particular cases which had come under my observa- 
 tion ; I meant to say, that if it were a question deducible from facts, there had 
 been as many instances of want (tf integrity on the part of the Europeans as on 
 the part of the natives; that 1 am prepared to substantiate at any time by facts. 
 
 3189. You think if a native zemindar, or other man of wealth, had a suit 
 involving a large sum of monev pending, he would rather have it decided I)y a 
 native jutige than by a European '( — I realh' cannot tell ; if you will specify the 
 two men, the native and the European, I can answer the question. 1 think if 
 the native were equally independent, and sure of being treated, in the event of 
 charges of corruption being made against him, in the same way as the Euro- 
 pean, he would as soon have one as the other. Place the native in the same 
 situation of independence in which we are supposed to be ourselves in India, 
 and I have not any doubt that you would have the same result. 
 
 3190. Have not you stated that a European judge is not in a situation of 
 independence? — He is rather more so than the other; it is assumed, however 
 incorrectly, that he is abetter man, and also he has a greater number of friends 
 for his support. If a European gets into difficulties there are always a certain 
 number of his friends' in the civil service who are ready to support him ; it is 
 not so in the case of a native. 
 
 3191. Supposing under existing circumstances a zemindar had a suit involving 
 a large sum of money pending, would he prefer a European or a native judge 
 to decide his suit? — I cannot say ; I think if it were some of the judges who 
 are mentioned in Mr. Norton's book, take for example Mr. Anstruther, he 
 would prefer a native. Or take the counnissioner who has had the Masuhpatam 
 trials mentioned in the (51st and 62nd pages of this book, I have no doubt he 
 would prefer a native judge to him. I think some of the judges have not the 
 smallest idea of doing justice. The best men I have seen among the natives 
 are the Mahomedan law officers, with whom 1 have sat as a circuit judge. 
 Some of those men are extremely able men ; 1 dare say nine out of ten natives, 
 having a cause such as the question represented, would be better satisfied with 
 having the judgment of a Mahomedan law officer, who is more accustomed to 
 judicial proceedings, than a European taken by chance. 
 
 3192. I am supposing a case were there was an equality in point of ability - 
 — If you place them in equally independent situations, I think, if they are both 
 of equal ability, he would have a difficulty in choosing between the two. 
 
 3193. Mr. Macanlaji.] Were you to be understood to say that you supposed 
 a zemindar would prefer the native judge, if the native judge were, in cases of 
 corruption, dealt with as the European is? — I think he would, because in 99 
 cases out of 100, the native judge would be far bettor able to decide. 
 
 3 1 94. Than the European ? — Yes. 
 
 3195. The difference between the manner in which the European judge and 
 the native judge are dealt with in cases of corruption, is that you think the 
 European is more favourably dealt with? — I think he escapes with impunity. 
 
 3196. You think therefore if the native judge were dealt with as the Euro- 
 pean is, and if he were to escape with impunity in cases of corruption, he 
 would be more trusted than lie is now.'- I think if the native felt the same 
 security as the European under a charge of corruption his conduct in such 
 respect would be the same ; 1 did not mean to say that a sense of impunity 
 would make the native less corrupt. 
 
 3197. Was not your answer to the effect that a native judge would be pre- 
 ferred to a European if, in cases of corruption, he were dealt with as Euro 
 peans now are? — If in charges of corruption he were dealt with in the same 
 way, a sense of impunity would operate the same way in both cases. 
 
 0.10. N N 4 3'98. Do
 
 288 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEIORE THE 
 
 31. l^win,Esq. S^O^- 1^0 vou iiieau that you think if a native judge when charged with 
 
 corruption were dealt with as u European judge now is, that woukl tend to give 
 
 iS April i8.-i3. to the native judge a greater degree of confidence on the part of liis country- 
 men ? — I think just the reverse ; if the native judge were not likely to be 
 punished for corruption, though he had equal ability with the European, he 
 would certainl}^ not be preferred to the European. 
 
 3190. }ih'. Slaiitfles.] You said there were some judges who did not know a 
 word of the native languages ; is that your opinion '! — It is the case, certainly. 
 
 3200. Do you mean that they are not acquainted with any of the native 
 languages spoken at Madras? — ^Yes, I have known judges on the Bench who 
 conducted their lousiness entirel}' in English, and I have known collectors who 
 conducted their business entirely in English. 
 
 3201. Do not they pass an examination in the native languages before they 
 leave the college - — They pass an examination, after a fashion ; that examina- 
 tion is, in many instances, not worth a straw. 
 
 3202. After they have been in the country for 10 or 15 years you think they 
 still remain in such ignorance that they do not know a word of the native 
 languages : — Yes. 
 
 3203. Sir R. H. Ligfis.] Do they decide by means of inter])retei-s ? — Yes, 
 they do ; some of them. I must observe, that as to the IMadras Presidency 
 there are veiy few persons who do not use interjireters, though those who 
 employ interpreters do not alwavs employ English interpreters. I never my- 
 self, except in one district, used the language of the district. I could converse 
 freely in two languages, and was for two years in one district, in which I could 
 converse in the language of the district. I was always afterwards obUged to 
 use Hindostanee as a medium of interpretation ; there are numerous languages 
 in use in the different districts of Madras. In Canara not less than 15 lan- 
 guages may come before the court on the same day. Hindostanee there- 
 fore, which is understood Ijy ahiiost everybody, is generally employed, and if 
 a person understands that language it is not very important whether he un- 
 derstands any other ; because if the parties before him do not vmderstand it, 
 it is certain that there will be many parties in the court unconnected with the 
 case who do understand it. 
 
 3204. Do you include Hindostanee among the languages of which some of 
 the judges and collectors do not know a word ■ — They do not even know that, 
 some of them. 
 
 320."',. Sir R. II. Li[ilis.'\ You stated that a certain judge was piously dis- 
 posed towards the Christians and inqjiousl}' disposed towards those whonj he 
 called the heathen ; you added that the word " heathen '" was altered by the 
 Court of Directors ; will you be pleased to state to what word the phrase in 
 question was altered ? — I do not remember saying that the word was altered; 
 1 think I said it was objected to by them. 
 
 32()tK Mr. JIa/K/Ics.] You stated in a former pr.rt of your evidence, when 
 speaking of your having been a collector, that through the negligence of your 
 predecessor corruption prevailed in the district from the highest to the lowest 
 officers ; how is that reconeileable with your opinion as to the ])urity of the 
 natives? — 1 think in evi'ry district in India the collector gives a character to 
 the whole society. This man did not know a word of any language but 
 English ; I can mention as a fact that when I joined the district the head 
 sheistadar was spending 0,000 rupees a month ; 1 had mytclf great difficulty, 
 in consequence of the corruption which prevailed tliere, in carrying on the 
 duties, therefore I got two natives from another district to assist me, and by 
 that means was able to carry on the duties. Justl)efore I went to that district 
 I was in the district of Guntoor, where there had been a very able and very 
 good man ; in that district the ])ub]ic servants were good to a man almost ; 
 1 believi! if the (iovernor is good tlu^ Presidency generalh' will take its tone 
 from him ; il the collector is bad ihe district will take its tone from him ; they 
 will be good or evil, according to the colleclor or according to the (iovernor. 
 
 3207. Mr. FAIiiit.l In speaking of Lord Tueeddale, you have used some 
 very strong epithets to-day ; did you use similar epithets, or any intemperate 
 language which vou sho\dd not have l)een induced to use in your connnu- 
 nications with the (iovernment r — Till I was removed from office I used no 
 intenqjerate language to tlie Government ; after 1 was removed from office 
 I did. At the commencement of ni}' (juarrel with the Government, I wrote two 
 
 letters
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERIUTORIES. 289 
 
 letters with my colleague reciuesting the Governor to jiut the Court in motion m. Lndn, Esq^ 
 
 by taking notice of the i)roc('c(lings of the first judge. Tliosc letters were ■ 
 
 written with the greatest temperance, and 1 liave one of tliose letters before me 18 April i8ss^ 
 now. 
 
 3i!o8. You were luidei-stood to say that you were removed in c(mse(|uenee of 
 intemperate language which you had used under some provocation r — 1 was 
 removed in consequence of what they said was intemperate language. I do not 
 admii: that I used any. 
 
 ;]jn(). The Committee are to understand that the epithets which you have 
 to-day ap])lied to Lord Tweeddale were not used by you in any comnmnieation 
 with the Ciovernment previous to your removal? — Certainly not. I wish to 
 be allowed to make one further observation. At the ti)ne I was removed, 
 Lord Tweeddale was living at the Neilgherry Hills ; there was one member of 
 the Council only at ^Madras, who was utterly unfit for anything; for, in fact, 
 he was one of the most stupid men I ever saw. Lord Tweeddale was residing 
 on the Hills, in violation of the Act of Parliament. 
 
 3210. Mv. J. Fit::r/er(il(/.] You have read Mr. Norton's pamphlet ? — Yes. 
 
 3^11. Does it, in 30ur opinion, fairly represent the decisions of the courts 
 of justice at Madras? — Undoubtedly it does. Mr. Norton has had a perfect 
 opi)ortunitv of knowing what was going on in the courts. He was the 
 Government vakeel in the Sudder Adawlut, and all the papers must have been 
 taken from the records. 
 
 3212. You have read the pamphlet yom'self / — The greater part of it. 
 
 3213. Will you turn to page 90, and tell me whether it correctly represents 
 the course of proceeding in taking depositions before magistrates ? — It does, 
 but it requires an explanation fully to understand it. The regulations of the 
 Government in civil cases allow the judge to employ a native in taking down 
 evidence, in the same way as our Masters in Chancery take down evidence. 
 This does not often happen, I imagine, in criminal cases. There was a time when 
 criminal judges were in the habit of hearing two trials at the same time, whether 
 they were cases of murder or whatever they might be. The Sudder Court, | 
 however, passed an order declaring that two trials should not be held at the ^ 
 same time. The Sudder, however, has passed other orders just as memorable as ^ 1 
 that. They passed an order that in cases of Thuggee a man might be hanged • I 
 upon evidence delivered 1,000 miles oif. They said it was very inconvenient to ' 
 bring men such a distance, so that in the case of Thugs they might be hanged 
 upon evidence delivered at a distance. That order was revoked in consequence . i 
 of its being discovered that there were certain judges of the circuit court who \ 
 wowld have refused to abide by it, and who would not have hanged people on 
 such evidence. 
 
 3214. I find this statement at page 7, "That any man will do for a judge has 
 long been the established rule ; and notwithstanding the ad\antage afforded by 
 the existence of the subordinate judgeships, the higher appointments are not 
 unfrequently bestowed upon revenue officers who have proved themselves want- 
 ing in efficiency, and are considered unfit for a responsible revenue charge ;" 
 does that truly represent the fact '- — It certainly does; there can be no doubt 
 that men who have been found fit for nothing else have been put into the 
 revenue department as collectors, and it is (juite in accordance with the views 
 which were laid down by Sir Thomas Monro. In a letter which I not long 
 ago read, which will be found in the " Life of Sir Thomas Monro,'' he says, 
 that more able men are required for the revenue department than for the 
 judicial department, and he contemplates the ablest men l^eing placed in the 
 revenue department. He speaks also of their salaries, which he contends 
 should be much higher than those given to the judicial dejiartment. 
 
 3215. Sir ,7. W. Bo(}(/.] You said that Mr. Norton had an opportunity of 
 becoming well acquainted with the cases which he has reported, from the fact 
 of his being the Government pleader in the Sudder? — Yes. 
 
 3216. ^Yas he appointed Government pleader in the Sudder before or after 
 the publication of his pamphlet ?— I do not know whether he was appointed 
 Government pleader before ; he was a pleader in the Sudder Court ; 1 do not 
 know the date at which he was employed by the Government ; his information 
 was undoubtedly collected in the Sudder Court, but whether as a Government 
 pleader or not 1 am unal:)le to say. 
 
 3217. You do not know whether, in fact, he was appointed Government 
 0.10, ple;,der
 
 2qo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. Lewin, Esq. pleader after the pamphlet had been published, or before ? — I cannot say 
 
 ■ whether it was so or not. 
 
 18 Apnl 1853. 3218. Mr. Elliot.] Do you know when the pamphlet was pubhshed ? — I do 
 
 not know ; it has been very recently pubhshed. 
 
 3219. Mr. Hume.] Will you state what opportunity you consider Mr. Nor- 
 ton had of ascertaining the facts wliich he relates in his pamphlet ? — I think 
 Mr. Norton wa^ accpiaiuted with most of the gentlemen in the civil service of 
 Madras, and I think they would have allowed him to see all those proceedings. 
 I think, as vakeel of the court, and being well acquainted with all the gentle- 
 men in the court, they would not have objected to his compiling a pamphlet 
 of that sort. 
 
 3220. Are you personally acquainted with him ? — Yes. 
 
 3221. Would vou regard him as a man of good judgment?— He is a very 
 able man ; I am quite certain he is incapable of misrepresenting any fact in- 
 tentionally. Most of those cases, I do not know how many of them, have been 
 embodied in the report of the deputy-registrar, Mr. Arbuthnot. 
 
 3222. Mr. Newdeffate.] The Committee understood you to say, that you 
 thought it a great injustice that evidence should have been taken at a distance, 
 and that men should have been punished for it ? — 1 said I considered it a great 
 injustice that a man should be liable to be hanged without being confronted 
 with the witnesses upon whose testimmiy he was to be hanged. 
 
 3223. Are the Committee to understand you to state that persons were 
 executed without having been duly tried, whether taken in one part of India 
 or another: — I cannot tell to what extent it was put in pi'actice. All I know 
 of the fact is, that the Sudder Adawlut gave orders that in cases of I'huggee, 
 a man might be convicted on evidence given at a distance by men with whom 
 he had never been confronted. There can be no doubt that the greatest in- 
 justice did take place in the mode of inquiring into cases of Thuggee. An 
 instance occurred in one district very shortly before I arrived there. There 
 were either live or seven men convicted ol' Thuggee ; all those men had 
 confessed, evidently through the influence of the police, at the timfi they 
 were under sentence of death. One of the officers belonging to the Thuggee 
 department arrived there. He said, " Before you hang those men I should like 
 my approvers to see them." The approvers did see them, and they said imme- 
 diately, " These were not the men who committed the murder ; the murder was 
 committed by five other men." The approvers pointed out those five other men, 
 who were hanged, and the previous ones were let off. I do not know the fact 
 that those men were convicted on evidence taken at a distance. 
 
 3224. ^'ou do not intend to say that those men had been convicted in conse- 
 quence of the evidence against them having been taken at a distance r— I do 
 not know how the fact is in that respect. 
 
 3225. The case to which you alluded was a case of danger arising from the 
 arrest of parties, and the evidence being given against them at a distance 
 from the court, their iilentity not being sufficiently ascertained ? —I cannot say 
 how this arrest took place ; I imagine they were arrested on suspicion, and the 
 regular police, finding it difficult to get proof against them, induced them, by 
 ])roniises of pardon, to confess their crime. That hai)pens very commonly in 
 India, owing to the village police having become almost obsolete, in conse- 
 quence of the general poverty of the inhabitants, which has broken up the 
 village system, and owing to the apathy on the part of the village police, arising 
 from the conduct ado])ted towards them by the regular police. 
 
 3226. Sir T. H. jMaddock.] Are you not aware that from the difficulty of 
 suppressing the atrocious crime of Thuggee, which was univei'sal throughout 
 India, the Legislature of India found it necessary to adopt the very extraordi- 
 nary expedient of j)assing a law making it criminal, and so criminal that a 
 person was liable to be imprisoned for life upon conviction to have been a 
 member of a Thuggee gang? — I do not think there is anytliing very extra- 
 oi(hnary in tlie existence of a law of that sort; 1 think anybody would be 
 subject to the same sort of law in any civilized country ; any person commit- 
 ting a crime at one time is always amenal)le for it al an after pei'iod. 
 
 3227. Sucli being the case, would not it. be necessary to take evidence at a 
 distance r — I cannot conceive that anything can justify taking evidence against 
 a man without his bcung confronted w ith the witnesses. 
 
 John
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 29^ 
 
 John Farley Leith, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 3228. Chairman^] WILL you state to the Committee what opportunities you J. F. Leith, Esq. 
 
 have had of a^certaininij the mode of administerinji: justice in India r — As an 
 
 Englisli barrister, I proceeded to India, in the prosecution of my professi<m, in .18 April 1853. 
 1832. I was nearly 14 years an advocate in Her Majesty's Supreme Court in 
 Calcutta. Since I have returned I have been jjractising; in the Privy Council 
 in appeals from all parts of India, both from the Company's Courts and from 
 Her Majesty's Courts. 
 
 322Q. Did you ever practice in the Sudder Court ? — I have on several occa- 
 sions been in the Sudder Court, and also in the Mofussil Courts. It has been 
 on special occasions, when I have been specially retained. 
 
 3230. The Committee has had the constitution and character of those courts 
 described to tliem by previous witnesses ; will you state to the Committee what 
 your opinion is as to the existing defects in the administration of justice in the 
 Supreme Court? — The Supreme Court, I think, answ'ers the requirements of 
 the Charter, and the statute under which it was constituted, extremely well ; 
 it has followed, as soon as was practicable, the reforms which have gone on in 
 England, in the courts of Westminster Hall ; from all the courts of West- 
 minster Hall, and from the Ecclesiastical and Admiralty Courts at Doctors' 
 Commons, the reports of decisions have come out, 1 may say, almost hot from 
 the press, and they form the foundation of the decisions in Her Majesty's 
 Supreme Courts ; those courts also follow, as closely as possible, the courts 
 here in their mode of procedure ; the same rules of practice prevail, and the 
 same principles of decision. I do not, at this moment, see anything which 
 I can suggest for the improvement of those courts ; the judges selected are 
 generally men of ability, and, during the time I was there, those then presiding 
 in the Calcutta Supreme Court exercised the important duties confided to them 
 with zeal and great abihty, being men of talent, and possessing the necessary 
 legal acquirements. 
 
 3231. With regard to the Sudder Court at Calcutta, what is your opinion? 
 — The Sudder Court at Calcutta, I think, might be very much improved ; from 
 what I have seen of it, I should certainly say there is very considerable abihty 
 in the judges, and vvhen they have failed to come up to the standard which the 
 Committee, or which I, as a lawyer, might seek to establish, that has rather 
 been from the want of a rule in some particular case to which to refer, and by 
 which to decide. But in their apphcation of the law, and the mode of dealing 
 with facts, although they sometimes make mistakes, I may say that I have been 
 frequently surprised, knowing the course which they have generally passed 
 through before obtaining a seat on the bench of that court, that they have done 
 so well ; therefore 1 must suppose that they are men of great intelligence and 
 very considerable ability, men who devote themselves to the particular duties 
 they have to perform, and who have taken advantage of all their opportunities 
 for preparing themselves for so doing. With regard to their integrity, I never 
 heard a suspicion, during the time 1 was there, against any one man in that 
 court. 
 
 3232. Is there any change in the Sudder Coui't which you would suggest? 
 — There is, particularly with reference to one question which has been con- 
 sidered by those who are desirous of improvement in the administration of 
 justice in India, for many years. The Committee is a\vai-e that there are two 
 distinct systems of judicature in Britisli India. One of them is carried out by 
 the Queen's (. ourts, the local jurisdiction of which is confined to the three 
 Presidencies of Calcutta, Bomba)% and Madras ; there is a sort of local ambit 
 within which they have general jurisdiction, but they have jurisdiction beyond 
 that, extending over British-born subjects, and they have also jurisdiction over 
 natives, who are distinguished fi-om British-boim subjects, in cases where 
 they have entered into written contracts with British-born subjects to render 
 themselves amenable to the process of the court in the particular matter 
 contained in the contract. There is also another distinct jurisdiction which 
 they exercise, which has arisen trom the very commencement of the coui't, and 
 is founded upon an authority very high in law, namel)'. Lord Coke, with regard 
 to the construction of the word " inhabitants." By the charter of justice the 
 Supreme Court has jurisdiction over the inhabitants of Calcutta. Now with 
 
 0.10. O O 2 reference
 
 292 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 -S: R Leith, Esq. reference to the authorities upon the construction of the word '■' inhabitants," 
 
 tliose who ma_y be carrying on trade, and have i)laces of business in Calcutta 
 
 ?£ April 1853. for carrying- on trade there, though they may not reside there, are also held 
 liable to that iurisdiction. The other system of judicature is entirely distinct. 
 It is the system which prevails in the provincial, or Mofussil, or Company's 
 Cmu'ts throughout British India. From those courts the last appeal in India 
 is, in civil suits, to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, and in criminal, to the 
 Sudder Nizamut Adawlut, at each Presidency. A suggestion has been made 
 for the purpose of getting rid of this anomaly, which, in earlier times, was 
 one which was felt to give rise to practical inconveniences ; in later times, both 
 with regard to the judges and the Government, who have not come into conflict, 
 no practical inconvenience has arisen ; but still it is an anomaly that there 
 should be in British India, where the Government is one, two systems of judi- 
 cature. A very simple remedy suggests itself to my mind for getting rid of that : 
 it would be that of joining the Sudder and the Supreme Courts, and making such 
 amalgamated court the supreme court of appeal : when I say joining them, 
 I mean that there should be associated with ihe Company's officers, who are 
 members of the covenanted civil sei'vice of India, professionally educated 
 English judges ; by that means I think you would obtain that which is wanting 
 at present in the Sudder. The covenanted service judges would bring into 
 practical use all their experience and knowledge of the institutions of the 
 country aiul the people, their manners and their usages, and you would then 
 have an educated, practical lawyer to exercise his judgment on the facts and 
 law, guided by a legal mind accustomed to accurate investigation and logical 
 i-easoning, and to assist them with rules when the positive law of the country 
 which they are called on to administer is deficient ; that positive law being either 
 the Hindoo law, the Mahomedan law, or the law contained in the Regulations of 
 the Government. Now the Regulations themselves presuppose a case occurring, 
 and it is one which very often occurs, where not one of those several systems 
 of positive law will supply a rule for the occasion, with reference to the circum- 
 stances which occur in the case. The Regulations say in that case, you must 
 decide by "■jiistkr, cqidti/, and good conscience f but all educated men know 
 that that is not to be the arbitrary will of the judge ; it must be equity founded 
 ui)on tlie fundamental principles of natural law and universal jurisprudence, 
 which is a science of itself, and those principles will guide the judge when there 
 is a defect in the positive law. Again, the English law itself, and the Roman civil 
 law, will sui)i)ly principles ftir the purpose which may be adapted as rules for 
 the occasion b\ which to decide ; and I think the judges would be very much 
 strengthened in the Sudder Court had they associated with them such pro- 
 fessional English judges. It would I)e for the Legislatiu'e to consider whether 
 one, or two, or three was the proper number to \w apjjointed. 
 
 I have another view in recommending this change, and that is with regard 
 to the imj)rovcmcni of the local judicatures and Mofussil courts througliout the 
 country. My humble opinion is, fhat the mode to improve them is, first, to 
 improve the fountain-head, the highest court— the supreme appellate tribunal, 
 in innncdiatc connexion with which are all the English zillali judges ; they would 
 be under tlic superintendenee of this court, wliicli would establish the mode of 
 proce(hirc in tin; zillah courts, and the appellate superior judges would st'c and 
 take care that the zillah judges did their duty. They, again, have the sui)erin- 
 lendence over the princii)al sudder ameens, and the sudder ameens, and the 
 moonsiffs ; so that you would have a regular gradation of courts, and improve- 
 ment ])rocef(]inu; downwards through all from the Iiighest, and supervision 
 keeping in clicfic the lowest. To such an appellate tribunal might be very 
 safely cronfidcd the jractical details of the improvement of those several courts. 
 It would reciuii-e, lu) doubt, that there should be in this appellate court a good 
 professionally tdueated English Bar, and no court is too high to deny the 
 advantage which arises from a good Bar. I would stiggest that the lOnglish 
 language should be altogether adopted in the ajjpcllate court, though I am 
 against it in the Mofussil courts. 1 think it would be very important that 
 the English language, in oi-al pleading, should be always used in the appellate 
 court for that |)urpose. I am informed, the Sudder judges now, instead of 
 having to go through the difficulty and inconvenience of themselv(>s translating 
 the record and cause papers, when they come up from the zillah c(mrts on 
 appeal, have tliem translated into English by an officer in the Sudder before they 
 
 are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 293 
 
 are laid before thorn ; so that we have aclvauced now to tluit step, that th(; j. r. Ldtli, l■:^q. 
 
 Sudder judges consider the case, not through the native languages, in which the ^— 
 
 case comes up to that court, but in an Enghsh translation. Further, tlu-y are iS April i8j:3. 
 
 required now. by the regulations of the Government, to pronounce their judg- 
 
 njont in English, and give their reasons in English, so as much as possible to 
 
 relieve them from the native officers, and from the difficulties which might 
 
 occur, as the Committee will suj)i)ose, where those important matters are to go 
 
 through the hands of a native official ; so that we have arrived at the point of 
 
 having a court using the English language in all ]iarticulars, with the exception 
 
 of this, that the whole of the oral i)leading in that court may be still carried on 
 
 in the native languages. In 184G, by a resolution of the Siidder Dewanny 
 
 Adawlnt, a])proved of by the Governor-general in Council, it was declared 
 
 that where both pleaders' engaged in the appeal could understand and speak 
 
 English, the judge might, in his discretion, authorise the oral pleadings to be 
 
 carried on in English. Some judges have a prejudice against it; other judges 
 
 desire it ; and itis in the disci-etion of the judge who hears the case to allow 
 
 or disallow two Englishmen, or two men conversant with English, to carry on 
 
 the pleading before" him in their and his own language. Sometimes there is a 
 
 trick made use of for the purpose of preventing it. If one party knows tliat 
 
 there is to be an English barrister employed, and he had intended to employ a 
 
 vakeel who understood English, he sometimes will not avail himself of his 
 
 services, but will employ a native, for the purpose of shutting out the Enghsh 
 
 barrister on the other side. So that the step I now suggest is only that of making 
 
 it compulsory in all cases that the oral pleadings should be in English. This 
 
 would allow the whole of the Bar at present practising in the Supreme Court to 
 
 come in, amounting, I believe, to 20 : yon would thus at once obtain a sufficient 
 
 Bar for the purpose of carrying on the business. They are, in fact, now 
 
 admitted to practice there, yet the privilege given by .Act 1, 1846, sec. 3, is 
 
 encumbered witli this condition, that they shall in all respects be subject to the 
 
 same rules as the other pleaders, one of which rules is, that they shall know the 
 
 native languages; and no barrister, I believe, has been yet able satisfactoi'ily 
 
 to address the court in the vernacular languages of the country. There is one 
 
 class of persons whom I should be very sorry to injure among the pleaders who 
 
 are now engnged in that court ; I should state that the great body of pleaders, 
 
 certainly the best of them, in that court, are well-instructed intelligent men, 
 
 and who have had an English education. 
 
 3233. Your opinion is favourable to the talent and capability of the vakeels 
 and pleaders in the Sudder Court, now performing those duties there? — 
 Certainly ; thoiigh they have not had a regular legal education, yet they are 
 well versed in the Regulation law and in the Hindoo and Mahomedan laws. 
 
 3234. Mr. MacauUnj.'] Do they generally understand Enghsh ? — They all do ; 
 although it is not, perhaps, their mother tongue ; many of them, if not all, have 
 been born in the country ; some having had the advantages of an European 
 education at home, they now form the best class of pleaders -. native pleaders 
 are very much going out. It has been spoken of as an injury to the parties in 
 a suit, that English should be the mode of communicating with the court when 
 they are ignorant of it. That apjilies with very great lorce in the Mofussil 
 courts when the parties are themselves there ; but with respect to the Sudder 
 Ijeing the appeal court from the provinces, the parties are spread over the whole 
 of India ; they are not there themselves. 
 
 3235. The Sudder decides on written documents ? — Yes ; the parties them- 
 selves are scattered over Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, and are not present in 
 the court. 
 
 0.10.
 
 -94 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Jovis, 21" die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PUESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 Mr. Macau lay. 
 Mr. Sjioon^'r. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Sir R.H. Iiiirlis. 
 Mr. R. H.CIive. 
 Mr. Ldwe. 
 Mr. Cobdeii. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Mr. Newdesfate. 
 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 SirT. H. Maddock. 
 Sir George Grey. 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Mr. Milner Gibson. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Sir J. W. Hogg. 
 Mr. J. Fitzgerald. 
 Mr. Laboucliere. 
 Mr. Ellis. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., in the Chair. 
 
 John Farley Leith, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 J. F. Leith, Esq. 
 
 21 April 1?53. 
 
 3236. Chamnanr\ IS there any portion of your former evidence which you 
 wish to correct ? — I stated generally that the papers for the Sudder Court were 
 all translated ; I wish to qualify that answer. Knowing that Mr. Halliday had 
 heen examined before the Judicial Committee after me, I have referred to, 
 and now have before me, the evidence which Mr. Halliday there gave. I find 
 he states as follows : he is asked, " What is the record they have before 
 them r " And he says, " I have been endeavouring to trace the date of the 
 alteration which was made, but I have been unable to find the date ; it was 
 about fom- or five years back ; since that time, instead of the judges having to 
 read and translate, each separately b}" himself, all the voluminous papers in the 
 native language, as was formerly the custom, the important papers, for in- 
 stance the pleadings and the decision of the court below, containing the reasons 
 in full for the decision against which the appeal is made, are translated by 
 official persons employed for that purpose, and transcripts of the translations 
 in manuscript are placed in the hands of each judge who is to sit on the bench 
 at the time of the trial It is generally upon the mere perusal of those trans- 
 lations, and upon hearing the vakeels or the counsel, that the case is decided, 
 reference only beinji" made to the papers in the native languages in those in- 
 stances in which, owing to any dispute arising regarding them, it may be neces- 
 sary to refer to them specially ; but this does not happen usually." " The four 
 papers called pleadings aie, according to the present practice, placed in the 
 hands of translators, who translate them into English. Of course it is easier 
 for the judges to pick out in an I:',nglish translation the pith of the case, than 
 it would be when the judges had at the same time to translate them from the 
 native language ; those papers therefore, that is to say, the four pleadings and 
 the decision of the court below, are the papers translated into English for the 
 judges of the Sudder Court." With regard to English pleaders, perhaps I may 
 be allowed to refer to IMr. Halliday's evidence on the subject. The question is 
 asked, " Has this new practicf at Calcutta had the effect of introducing into 
 the Sudder Court English counsel ? Very largely. — Then in what language is 
 the argument conducted ? The rule of the Sudder Court is, that whenever 
 the pleaders on l)oth sides understand English, and arc willing, the 
 
 ''.hould bc' conducted in 
 more a matter of frequi^ncy 
 
 English 
 
 argument 
 
 and in i)ractice it has come to be more and 
 for the par;ies to employ vakeels on both sides who 
 ^0 imderstand iinglish, cither natives who do understand English, or English 
 pleaders who are regularly attached to the Sudder Court, or of late, very 
 largely, barristers of the Calcutta Bar ; that system is coming more and more 
 into use every year." 
 
 3237. Mr. Maainlaj/.'] A great part of the business before the Sudder 
 Adawlut consists in revising evidence ? — Yes. 
 
 3238. The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 295 
 
 3238. The evidence is not translated? — The evidence is not tninslated as J. P. L«</i, Esq. 
 
 yet, and one of the questions of the Judicial Committee was, why it was not so 
 
 translated; it is equally necessary. -1 April 1853. 
 
 3239. Mr. Elliot.'] Are the cocumcnts which are put in translated ? — 
 Mr. Halliday says tlie important papers ; there is some uncertainty about what 
 he says on that head. 
 
 3240. Chairman.'] Would you recommend the introduction of juries into the 
 Sudder Court? — 1 think there is no occasion for it ; that court onlv exercises 
 the functions of a court of appeal, and revises the proceedings of the subor- 
 dinate courts from whom the appeal has come. 
 
 3241. Mr. Macau lay.] How would you provide for the administration of 
 justice within the Presidencies when the Supreme Courts aild the Sudder 
 Courts were united, as you liave suggested ? — A court of original jurisdiction 
 must be established in Calcutta, being a court of first instance ; and as that is 
 to a great extent an English town, I think it is absolutely necessary that there 
 should be a court in which should preside judges drawn from the body from 
 which the present judges are drawn, namely, the English and Irish Bars, 
 educated lawyers, called to the Bar, and of a certain number of years' standing. 
 The number of judges who should then be placed in that court would be a 
 question for the Legislature to decide. What I would humbly suggest is, that 
 if there be an appeal from that court to the united court, it must be kept in 
 view that the English judges, or educated barristers who are to be judges, and 
 be associated with the covenanted civil servants of the Company in the Svidder 
 Court as a court of appeal, must be of that character and standing that you 
 may have a legitimate appeal from the court of first instance in Calcutta to that 
 court, if there be intended to be any such appeal. It may be that the appeal 
 may be direct from the court of first instance, direct to the Judicial Committee 
 of the Privy Council here. It would, however, scarcely be wise to make the 
 subordinate court a court of a higher character, as regards the men placed in it 
 as judges, than the appellate court ; therefore, if you have two English judges 
 in the court of original jurisdiction, you must have at least two, if not thi-ee, 
 in the other court. Probably it might be supposed that in the court of original 
 jurisdiction there shoidd be but one English judge. '1 he only thing which 
 strikes me as being opposed to that arrangement is this, the casualties which 
 occur as to health and life in that country : but I think a prevision might be 
 made which would meet that difficvilty, and that it would be possible for one of 
 the judges of the appellate court to fill up for the time a temporary vacancy 
 caused by the absence or illness of a judge of original jurisdiction ; so that that 
 matter is one of detail, which might be easily got over. 
 
 3242. Would it not be possible for the judges of the Supreme Court, or the 
 Sudder Court, whichever it might be called, to take upon themselves this duty, 
 in the same manner in which the judges of the Court of Queen s Btnch in 
 England sit at Guildhall for the City ? — Yes, like a case at Nisi Prius coming 
 up to the Court in Banc. 
 
 3243. Would not it be a preferable system if you made the Supreme Court 
 strong enough in point of numbers, and as regards the ability of the judges, to 
 make one of those judges available for that purpose? — I think it might be 
 advantageous in this way, that it is desirable to have the judge who was present 
 at the decision of the cause in the court below, to give information to the judges 
 associated with him in the ultimate jurisdiction. 
 
 3244. Sir G. Grey.] Taking that view of the case, how may English judges 
 do you think would be necessary at Calcutta"^ — I do not think you could 
 do with less than three. Perhaps it may be necessary to state, that by the 
 census in 1837 the population of Calcutta, which is almost entirely a mei'can- 
 tile and commercial population, was 229,714 ; but since then there must have 
 been a very large addition, and that to a great extent of Europeans. Since 1837 
 the European population has very much increased, and the trade of the place 
 has advanced. 
 
 3245. Do you mean that the increase of the population might render an 
 increase in the number of judges necessary, in order to get through the business? 
 — Yes. 
 
 3246. Sir T. II. Jiluddock.] Are you of opinion that the criminal business of 
 the court in Calcutta, whatever its name may be, might be very materially 
 diminished by giving jurisdiction in all petty offences to some inferior tribunal? 
 
 0.10. OO4 —Certainly;
 
 21)6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ./. F. Leith, Esq. — Certainly ; but at present the questions, as I understood them, and my 
 
 answers, have been confined to the civil department ; of course there would be 
 
 21 April 1853. ^ Ypj,y niaterial and inijwrtant (juestion to be considered with reference to ren- 
 dering the judges, who arc to sit in that court, whatever aid or assistance might 
 be obtained on the criminal side of the court as well as the civil. 
 
 3247. ]\Ir. Elliof.] The Committee have understood from a previous witness 
 that there is now a court of minor jurisdiction in Calcutta ? — There is a court 
 of minor jurisdiction now established at Calcutta. 
 
 324S. Independentlv of the Small Cause Court, has not there been a court 
 established with an inferior jurisdiction to that of the Supreme Court .'—No ; 
 there is but one petty court, which has superseded the old Court of Requests, 
 and resembles the county courts in this country. 
 
 3240. Are any of the cases which are decitied in that court appealable? — 
 By certiorari. By a statute of the British Legislature, a writ of certiorari lay 
 from the Court of Requests to the Supreme Court, for the purpose of bringing up 
 proceedings from its jurisdiction into the Supreme Court ; so that the Supreme 
 Court had incidentally a control over the proceedings of the inferior court ; 
 I cannot, liowever, state whether that ])ower has Ijeen preserved in the consti- 
 tution of the new court, which has arisen out of the former, which was a 
 statutory court. 
 
 3250. Would you recommend, under the new arrangement which you pro- 
 pose, that ajjpeals should lie from that court to the Supreme Court, or to the 
 amalgamated court? — I am, on principle, opjiosed to a succession of appeals; 
 I think they should be kept down as much as possible ; I should therefore say 
 that it would be more satisfactoiy to have an appeal at once to the court 
 constituted for that purpose, than that it should go through the intervening 
 court, now called the Supreme Court ; I think it would be better to have an 
 appeal direct to the amalgamated court, than to have an intermediate court to 
 appeal to. 
 
 32,"; I. Mr. jllacaulai/.'] When you just now used the expression " Sujjreme 
 Court," did not you refer to a comt appointed to administer justice to the 
 Presidency ? — Yes. 
 
 3252. Not the chief court of appeal, but the court, whether it consisted of 
 one judge of the Supreme Court, or some one or more separate oificers, which 
 administered justice locallv at the Presidency? — Yes. 
 
 3253. Chainna/i.] If one civil code and one criminal code were introduced, 
 applicable to all the inhabitants of India, of whatever nation they might be, 
 would it be necessary to have a special court for the purpose of adju(h(;ating 
 ujion transactions in the Presidency itself? — I should say assuredly it would, 
 for this reason, that there must be a court of original jurisdiction : and I may 
 put it in this way ; would any association of the members of the civil service 
 aid or assist the administration of justice by that tribunal .' I think it would 
 not ; I think the greater number of the eases which occur in (Jalcutta are 
 those which an English liarrister, sitting as judge, would be able to deal with 
 without associating with him members of the civil service. The number of the 
 members of the civil service is not enough now for the judicial business of the 
 country, and you would only increase the difficulty without rendering more 
 ])erfect the tribunal you are going to create. You would create embarrassment 
 in reference to the disposition of the covenanted civil servants of the C^ompany. 
 
 32.54. Sir G. Ore)/.] Do you mean, that irrespective of the code of law to be 
 administered, you tliink it is necessary that at Calcutta there should be a court 
 of the first instance and a court of appeal ? — I think so. 
 
 32.5,-;. The jurisdiction of the court of the first instance being confined 
 within what Umits ? — I think the local jurisdiction which is now exercised is a 
 very ])rop('r one, or its radius might be beneficiall}- extended to include the 
 suburbs of Calcutta. 
 
 32.56. That is, for Calcutta? — Yes. 
 
 3257. TIh! amalgamated court, which would be the court of appeal, would 
 exercise a jurisdiction over a far wider territory, would not it? — Yes. I am 
 speaking of the whole of the 15ritisn territory in India, exclusive of that which is 
 within iJomi)ay, that which is within Madras, and that which is within the 
 North-W(st(Mn' Provinces. This court of appeal would be an ai)pellate trilmnal 
 frou) tlie whole of that side of India, witli this exception. At present there 
 is a Sudder Court at Agra, which is a court of appeal from the North-western 
 
 Provinces
 
 SELECT COMMITTEK ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 297 
 
 Provinces since the Act of Willinni the Fourth. From ali the courts within that j. /•'. Lciih, Esq. 
 
 district an a])pcnl lies, not to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut in Calcutta, Ixit to 
 
 tlie Sudder Dewanny in Asira. That court is clotlied v.itli powers similar in 21 April 1853. 
 
 all respects to the powers which are vested in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut at 
 
 Calcutta, hut th(MV is now an intereoinnnmication hetween them, w'lii(;h has 
 
 very hcncticial etlects. In sending what arc called circular orders for the 
 
 direction of the judges of the several courts throughout the country, and giving 
 
 answers to the questions sent hy those judges, as to constructions of Regulations 
 
 and such like, there arc frccjucnt communications made between tlic Sudder 
 
 Dewanny Adawlut at Agra and the Sudder Dcwanm' Adawlut at Calcutta. That 
 
 means of connnunieation, I think, ought to he preserved ; and I should suggest, 
 
 with all (h'fercncc, that witli regard to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut at Agra, 
 
 and with regard to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut at Bombay, and with regard 
 
 to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut at Madras, there should he a conti'olling power 
 
 in the chief court, if it is to be at the Presidency of Calcutta, in order to ensure 
 
 what I think is essential to the due administration of justice, uniformity of 
 
 pi'acticc, and uniformity with regard to the decisions of the courts throughout 
 
 the whole of the provinct s under our Government. 
 
 32')'6. Mr. Macuulay.] At Bombay you would probably constitute the 
 Supreme Court partly of the Company's judges and partly of the Queen's 
 judges : — Yes. 
 
 32,)y. And the same at Madras ? — Yes. 
 
 32i)u. But at Agra you do not see any possibility of forming a court which 
 should be compounded of the Sudder Court and the Uueen's Court- — No, I do 
 not see anj' impossibility ; I think it avouIo not be necessary, in consequence of 
 there being so few Europeans there. I have been there, and I know that the 
 European community is very small ; it is, exclusive of the servants of the 
 Company, coutined to some traders in the town, and to those who are carrying 
 on the indigo concerns in the Upper Provinces. 
 
 ,5261. Sir T.H. Maddock.] Would you see any objection to the appointment 
 of at least one judge, an English barrister, to be associated with the judges of 
 the Sudder Dewann)' Adawlut? — On the contrary, I should think that great 
 practical advantages would arise from it. 
 
 3262. Mr. JlJacaii/d^.] Do you think you could obtain an English Bar at 
 Agra ? — I am satisfied of it ; I am satisfied, from the large amount of property 
 in the province, and from the number of suits which must necessarily come 
 before that court, it would draw to it a sufficient Bar. 
 
 3263. If in the other courts at Madras, Bombay, and Calcutta, you had 
 English lawyers sitting under the Queen's commissioner, would not it rather 
 lower the Sudder Court at Agra if there were no such persons there r — It 
 would. B}- having an English lawyer you would also be more likely to secure 
 uniformit) of practice and decision, because there would be a community of 
 mind between such educated English lawyer and the Supreme Appeal Court in 
 Calcutta, which would very much obviate the necessity for frequent references. 
 
 3264. At present, in the higher classes of criminal cases, an Englishman who 
 is accused must be taken to Calcutta to be tried, must not he ? — He nmst. 
 
 3265. "Would not it be an advantage to have a court in the Upper Provinces 
 which should be competent to administer justice in such cases- — I think so. 
 I may here mention the present state of the law with regard to British sub- 
 jects : Act 4 of 1843 has altered the jurisdiction which was conferred by the 
 Act of the 53d of George the Third, c. 165, sec. 105, which gave a jurisdic- 
 tion to the zillah magistrate, a civil servant of the Company, over British 
 subjects, in cases of assault and trespass against the natives. Under that Act 
 a writ of certiorari might be granted by the Supreme Court ; so that there was 
 in effect an appeal to the Supreme C'ourt in those cases ; that writ, however, has 
 been taken away by an Act of the local Legislature, Act 4 of 1843, which has 
 abolished the writ of ccrtioraii to the Supreme Court, aiul has made all cases 
 coming under the category of the cases described in the 53d of George the Third, 
 cases which are to be appealed in the ordinary course, like all other cases in 
 India. They therefore now come up to the Sndd(-r Nizamut Adawlut in Cal- 
 cutta, which is the highest court of appeal in criminal matters, as distinguished 
 from the civil court, the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, in the same Presidency. 
 
 3266. C'hainiiau.] 'I he Supreme Courts of Bombay and [Madras would no 
 longer be courts of appeal, but would be courts of local jurisdiction, would they 
 
 0.10. P p not ?
 
 298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F.Leit/i,E:,q. not ? — No; I think there mvist be a court of appeal in each of those Presidcu- 
 
 ■ cies ; but I propose that there should be a controlling power in the court in 
 
 23 April 1853. Calcutta; that it should have a superintending and controlling power, not to 
 interfere with proceedings before the others, but for the purpose of obtaining 
 that uniformity of law and procedure which is so essential tliroughout the whole 
 of the Company's territories, by taking care thai the rules of procedure and the 
 books which should be referred to as authorities in one court should govern and 
 be authorities in each of the other courts. 
 
 3267. Sir G. Gre^.] You do not mean that the court at Calcutta should be 
 a court of appeal from the Supreme Courts of Madras and Bombay ? — No, nor 
 from that ot Agra. 
 
 3268. Mr. Macaulay.^ But that they should correspond with each other, as 
 the Sudder Courts do now?— Yes; and that if there should be a question 
 between them, it should be settled by the superior authority. 
 
 3269. You say that the correspondence between the two Sudder Courts in 
 the Bengal Presidency is productive of great good r — It is. 
 
 3270. And you think to extend the relation now established between the 
 Sudder Court at Calcutta and the Sudder Court at Agra to the other courts 
 would be beneficial ? — Yes ; I am not aware whether in this communication the 
 court of Calcutta has at present a controlling power, but I should say, if it has 
 not, it would be beneficial that there should be a power in the highest court to 
 settle any difference of opinion which might arise. 
 
 3271 Mr. Elliot.^ You contemplate that the Supreme Court in Calcutta, 
 which is to have an original jurisdiction only, should administer the law con- 
 tained in the code for the general administration of justice in India? — Cer- 
 tainly, whether that were a civil code or a criminal code. 
 
 3272. Mr. Hume] The Committee understand you to say that you would 
 desire to see a uniformity of practice throughout the whole of the Presidencies r 
 — Yes. 
 
 3273. Mr. /. Fitzgerald.] Would you preserve the present Supreme Court, 
 in addition to the consolidated court which you have suggested? — I should 
 not say that I would retain the Supreme Court, but I woidd say that a court, 
 modelled very much in the same way as the present Supreme Court is, should 
 be substituted for that which we now term the Supreme Court, but it should 
 be constituted with reference to the Appeal Court also to be established for the 
 purpose of reversing its decisions when erroneous, which would necessarily lead 
 the mind to conclude that such a court might be properly constituted with a 
 less number of judges, and yet be sufficient to do tlie work of the Pi'esidency, 
 which is very important in a commercial point of view. 
 
 3274. Sir ■/'. H. Miiddoch.'] As it would cease to be the highest court, it would 
 not properly be called any longer the Supreme Court? — No ; with regai-d to that, I 
 may say, that though it has been usually the case to distinguish the court in 
 Calcutta as the Supreme Court, for as Her Majesty's court it was entitled to 
 that name, it is very much overlooked that the Sudder Dewanny Adavvlut is 
 itself also a statutory court ; though it is treated as a Company's court. It was 
 estabhshed in its present jui-isdictiou, and with its present powers, under a statute 
 of the British Legislature ; the statute of the 'J 1st of George the Third, c. 70, 
 sec. 21, is that which made the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut a court of record ; and 
 therefure, although the other is called Her Majesty's court by reason of the 
 Charter which the Legislature authorised under the 13th of George the Third, 
 the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut is a court which was made a court of record by a 
 statute of the Imperial Parliament. 
 
 327,5. \\ ith reference to the proposed consolidated court, you think it would 
 be wise to vest in that court the power of regulating the authorities, and the 
 procedure in the courts of justice in India generally ?— Yes. 
 
 327(i. Chairman.'] Will you state to the Committee your imj)ressions as to 
 the ojjcration of the Mofussil courts, their defects, if there are any, and what 
 remedies you would suggest for them? — 'i'he Mofussil courts consist of the 
 zillah judge, or city judge, who is a covenanted civil servant of the East India 
 Company, a British-born subject. There is also the principal sudtler ameen's 
 eoin-t, there is the sudder araeen's court, and there is the moonsiff 's court, 
 which is the lowest. I am of opinion that the system of a gradation of courts 
 is in itself a good system, and that by a plan of determined, steady, gradual 
 reform those courts may be made fit and sufficient for all the purposes of the 
 
 administration
 
 SELECT COMMiTlEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 299 
 
 administration of justice, whether as regards natives or Eiu'oi)eans. I think j. F. Leith, Est) 
 
 with a Supreme Court such as that which I have designated at the (!hief I're — 
 
 sideney, a court sufficient to originate orders and directions, and with power to ^' '^l'"'' ''-jJ- 
 carry them into effect, the other Presidency courts and the iMofussil courts 
 may be so improved as to answer all the purposes of the administration of 
 justice among the various classes whom we tind in India. I believe the 
 native judges do their business extremely well ; thnt, however, is a matter to 
 which I can speak merely from general notoriety, but I know they have given 
 satisfaction to the higher courts. With respect to the English judges in the 
 zillah courts, jierhaps there is some fault to be found with the mode in which 
 the appointments take place. I am, however, one of those who consider that 
 the training to be obtained by passing through tlie office of colletfor, instead 
 of being prejudicial, is beneticial ; but 1 think if the judicial service were to 
 have more advantages, perhaps I may say pecuniary advantages, a separate 
 judicial service would eventually arise, so that we might have a man who has 
 once entered the judicial service in the zillah court remaining there from that 
 time till he may be promoted directl}" from the zillah court, in whicli he has 
 been sitting so long, and obtaining experience as a judge, into the api)ellate 
 court at one of the Presidencies, so that he should not be afterwards dis- 
 tracted with matters of revenue being taken into the Revenue Board, and then ^ 
 again taken from the ile^•enue Board and put into the court of appeal. I think 
 such changes are not beneficial, and I think that the vacancies in the Presi- 
 dency court should be filled up from the zillah courts direct. But with regard 
 to the means of original professional training, when one of the covenanted 
 servants of the Company proceeds from this country to India, I think the best 
 possible training whicli can at present be obtained is by passing through tiie 
 office of collector ; and I could show that there is very great misconception as 
 to what are the duties of a collector. I have heard him described as a custom- 
 house officer. There is no analogy between the two offices. In all departments 
 it is a juridical office, and in some of the most important it is purely judicial. 
 I am satisfied that with regard to the institutions of the coimtry, and with regard 
 to the languages, the customs and manners of the people, and their religion, 
 which enters so closely into the laws of the country, the best practical know- 
 ledge of all those matters is to be obtained by mixing with the people, and that 
 is best effected by being placed in a district where the duties of collector are 
 to be performed. In that way may be obtained useful and practical information, 
 which will be of great assistance when the individual comes to be a judge in the 
 zillah court. The greater part of the cases which are decided in that court are 
 cases arising out of claims and rights to land and its incidents ; the other 
 matters adjudicated bear but a small proportion to those which are immediately 
 within the practice and knowledge of the collector. Besides his fiscal duties in 
 relation to the land revenue, the collector decides questions as to the nature of 
 land tenures and others, involving the rights of property, and disputed rights 
 to the possession of land and its produce, claims of rent, questions with regard 
 to the granting of pottahs, or leases, and the right to receipts ; in fact, there 
 are so m.ny important questions, that T can scarcely exclude any which relate 
 to land. With the tenures of the country the collector must be intimately 
 acquainted ; he has to decide upon them, and in questions respecting the right 
 to property, both claims to rent and titles to lands ; those questions come before 
 him judicially; he has the power to issue process, examine witnesses upon oath, 
 and to decide upon their testimony. So that I would wish it to be distinctly 
 understood that the office of a collector is a juridical office, and in many respects 
 purely judicial. 
 
 3277. Mr. E//iot.~] Is not the collector an agent of the Court of Wards : — 
 Yes ; he also keeps the general registry of the coimtry. All lands must be 
 registered, upon a change of ownership, in the books of the collector of the 
 zillah, and he has to watch all transfers and alienations which take place, and 
 see that no change is made in those tenures, and also that the parties who come 
 before him are the parties who ought to be registered as the owners. He has 
 very important duties also in regard to the separation of estates. In Hindoo 
 families generally all estates are joint estates ; the property is jointly held ; 
 therefore, as long as the property remains joint, the joint zemindary or talook 
 is responsible for the Government revenue which may have accrued due or 
 fallen into arrear in that zemindary, though it may have arisen from the 
 
 0.10. 1' p 2 default
 
 300 MIiNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Lcith, Esq, default of any one of those joint ])roprietors. But should one of them differ 
 
 ■ with his co-proprietors, and feel this as a burden to himself, he may arrange 
 
 21 April 1853. ^vith them, and go to the collector and get a portion assigned to him, and the 
 payment of revenue will be apportioned also ; he m;iy pay it into the collector s 
 office, and by so doing he will secure that share of the property M'hich that 
 revenue represents. 
 
 3278. Mr. Macaidai/.] Is not the collector also a magistrate r — He may be 
 so, but ordinarily 1 think the offices of the magisti-ate and collector are kept 
 distinct ; they would have distinct powers, for this reason ; in cases of affray 
 where the mugistrate is called in, he immediately refers the question, if it is 
 one with regard to the right to the possession of land, to the collector, in order 
 that he may judicially try who was in possession. 
 
 3279. Mr. Elliot.] Has not the collector also the charge of all endowments, 
 and does not that give him an intimate acquaintance with the different descrip- 
 tions of free grants, and with the religious customs l)elonging to those 
 endowments r — Ves, both with regard to Mahomedan mosques and Hindoo 
 temples. 
 
 3280. Sir iv. //. Iiiglis.] While in popular ignorance the word " collector " 
 might by some individuals be held to be equivalent to " custom-house officer," 
 you wish the Committee to understand that the word no more describes the 
 office actually held by the individual, with all its functions and all its powers, 
 than the general term " writer " does the nature of the duties discharged by 
 the civil servants of the East India Company ? — Certainly. 
 
 3281. Mr. Macuuhn/.] In fact, the collector is a judicial officer having 
 charge of a great many matters, which in England are assigned to the Lord 
 Chancellor and other high legal functionaries.-' — Exactly so. 
 
 3282. Is it not the fact, that the amount of property which depends upon 
 the judicial decisions of the collector is as great as that which depends upon 
 the judicial decisions of the zillah judges ? — In some cases it would be so, 
 assuredly. His decisions, however, may be rectified by a proceeding, not in the 
 nature of an appeal, but by an ordinary proceeding in the zillah courts, the 
 courts of ordinary jurisdiction ; so that while he exercises the powers which 
 have been just mentioned, it is under a species of control, because if a party 
 feels himself aggrieved by the decision of the collector, he may put it right by a 
 proceeding in the court of ordinary jurisdiction. 
 
 3283. Sir T. H. Madduck.] Are not the decisions of the collector final if 
 there is no suit brought into the zillah court against them ? — They are. I 
 omitted to refer to one peculiar species of jurisdiction given to the collector 
 under the Regulation II. of 1819, and one of what are called the Resumption 
 Regulations. A special jurisdiction was given by the Regulation which proceeded 
 from the local Government in that year, which has been followed by other 
 Regulations, which took from the courts of ordinary jurisdiction the power to 
 trv questions of La Khiraj lands or rent-free tenures, of which there are a great 
 many held throughout India, some of them being held fraudulently, but a great 
 many being held from Royal grants, or other grants recognised by the Maho- 
 medan and Hindoo law, for religious jjurposes and others. It was found that 
 the revenue miirht be imjn'oved by bringing in those which were so fraudulently 
 or improperly held, or in cases where the ])arties could not prove their title to 
 hold them. Regvdations were made for the pur]}ose of establishing a special 
 jurisdiction, which was of this nature : a collector was to be; authorised by 
 the Governor-general, under the title of dei)Uty special collector, to inquire into 
 the tenures of a ])articular district as to these La Kliiraj lands, and having so 
 inquired, when- his suspicions were excited that lands were fraudulently held, 
 or held by parties who could not prove title to them, he had the jjower of 
 summoning the parties before him, and calling on them to prove their title, 
 and so a suit was instituted in \\ hieh he himself acted as judge in that particular 
 matter. I think that was wrong, l)ecause I thiidv a man i)laced in that position 
 ought not to have been a judge. He was, first, tlu; informer; secondly, the 
 prosecutor; and thirdly, the judge, with only an ap))eal from his decision to the 
 special Commissioner of Revenue, there being no appeal from the Commissioner 
 of Revenue to the Court of Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. We have cases now 
 occurring before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council arising out of 
 this jurisdiction, where the appeal comes at once from the Commissioner of 
 
 Revenue
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 301 
 
 Revenue to the Judicial Committee of tlio Privy (Jouiicii, tliut is, in other words, j. /'. i.eith, Esc 
 
 to Her IMajesty in Council, instead of ^oing first to tlie other courts. 
 
 32S4. Was not this sjiecial deputy collector appointed ex(!hisivcly as a 21 Apiil iR.-;:}. 
 judicial oftic-er for the purpose of tr\ ing those eases ? — Cert.iinly. 
 
 3285. The matter having: nothinj^ whatever to do with his duty of collecting the 
 revenue, and the name " dejjuty special collector" bciiiii; ])ossil)ly a misnomer ? 
 — Certainly it may be so. The class from which he was taken was tiie class of 
 collectors ; but it was not because a man was placed in a jjarticular district as 
 a collector that he was elotlicd with this authority ; he was sclcc^ted out of that 
 class to perform those judicial duties. 
 
 3286. Mr. Mauiiles.] Are you aware wh<at the number of those cases was ; 
 was not the nundjcr very i;-reatr — Enormous, 
 
 ;]jS7. You object to the jurisdiction in those cases being taken from the 
 ordinary courts ; the courts being already full of business, would not the addi- 
 tion of such an enormous number of suits have imposed a great burden on 
 those courts, an(t impeded the ordinary administration of justice ? — I think it 
 is most likely it would. My general belief is, that the active and zealous ser- 
 vants of the Comi)any in those courts have at present as nuich as they can 
 possibl}' do, and if you had thrown upon them so much additional duty, cer- 
 tainly it would have oppressed them ; but still my objection is not so much to 
 creating this separate jurisdiction as to clothing the ])erson who was to be the 
 informer and the ]))osecutor with the office of judge also. 
 
 3288. He was only a judge in the first instance was he? — Only in the first 
 instance. 
 
 3289. The special commissioner undertook no part of the office of prose- 
 cutor ? — No ; the special deputy collector had the power to summon, and then 
 to try, and to decide. 
 
 3290. Are you aware that officers of the highest station, and character, and 
 experience were always selected for the office of special commissioner ? — 
 I am ; I am quite aware that some of the highest and ablest men in the 
 service, who are now sitting in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, were special 
 commissioners. One of the Honourable Members now present was a special 
 commissioner. 
 
 3291. Mr. Wilberforce Bird -was one ?— Yes. 
 
 3292. Mr. Richard Walpole r — I do not recollect him. I know that the men 
 who were selected as commissioners to be engaged in that service were men 
 of the first order. 
 
 3293. Have you any reason to doubt that their decisions were governed by 
 principles of strict justice, and not bv any leaning towards the Government ? — 
 They were men, 1 know, of the highest integrity, and unless there should have 
 been any leaning towards those whom they immediately served unknown to 
 themselves, they were men of such high character and honoiu* that they would 
 have scorned the idea of deciding a question in any other way than as it was 
 right and just between the parties. 
 
 3294. Do you think that the Government of India gets more than fair play 
 in its own courts r — 1 believe that the very fact of its being consideretl a hard 
 proceeding has had among English gentlemen the effect of protecting those 
 who might otherwise iiave been oppressed b}- it. The decisions have been in 
 manv cases against the Government, and I should say very much to the credit 
 of the judicial service of India, which stands very high. 
 
 329.5. Mr. Ellicc] You have had considerable experience in a situation 
 independent of the Government and of the East India Company in India ? — 
 I have. 
 
 3296. Is it your opinion that the general im]n'ession u])ou the public mind in 
 India, and especially upon the minds of the natives of India, is in favour of the 
 general integrity and honesty of the servants appointed to the various judicial 
 stations throughout India, and of the servants of the Comi)any generally ? — 
 With respect to the side of India in which I was, I must say most assuredly 
 that it is so ; not only from my residence there, but from my position as a bar- 
 rister of the Supreme Court, one of a body which is often placed by various 
 circumstances in some measure in antagonism to the civil service of the Com- 
 pany, I have had o))portunities which other classes have not of knowing what 
 was going on in the courts in India. If there arc comjjlaints made, although 
 those complaints might never reach the public through the courts, they would 
 
 0.10. p p 3 be
 
 302 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ''. F. Leiih, Esq. be brou2:ht to us for the purpose of ascertaining wliether a sufficient case for 
 
 redress could be established ; those who were dissatisfied with the result would 
 
 ■21 April 1853, express their dissatisfaction; so that I know, both from the professional position 
 which I held, and also generally from my intercourse with society, that the civil 
 service of India stands upon the highest ground, both as to principle and 
 integrity : where an individual judge fails, it is either from some personal cause, 
 such as a defect of temper, whicli we are all subject to, or from mistake in law 
 or error of judgment, and not from intentionally doing wrong. 
 
 3297. Mr. Hume.] You have spoken of the situation of the collector aiford- 
 ing hiin opportunities of becoming;- ac([uainted with the natives ; is not it the 
 duty and is not it the practice of the collectors and their assistants often to 
 visit the different villages and districts within their zillalis ? — I believe, during 
 the cold weather, it is the order of the Government that they are to proceed 
 on such inspections. I made, myself, a tour to the Upjier Provinces, before my 
 return home, visiting the chief parts of Upper India ; therefore I can speak from 
 personal knowledge that in the cold weather they do proceed into the districts; 
 they take their tents, and live entirely among the natives, and only witli the 
 natives. 
 
 3298. Mr. Macanlaj/.] You have, probably, repeatedly seen the tent of a 
 collector in places where, e.Kcept himself, with an assistant or two, there were 
 no Europeans within 30 miles? —Yes ; and in the towns where I have been,, on 
 going to see the collector, I have been told he was absent on such a journey, 
 and could not be seen. 
 
 3299. Mr. Hume.'] Do not those visits, which you have stated take place on 
 ^ the part of the collectors and their assistants, afford opportunities for becoming 
 
 acquainted with the natives, which no other branch of the service can afford ? 
 — Certainly. 
 
 3300. Is it on that account you consider the education to be obtained as 
 assistant to a collector to be one of the best which could be provided for the 
 civil servants in the country ? — That is one reason, but I think there are more ; 
 I think the proceedings of a collector, which are of a judicial character, are also 
 adapted for that purpose. 
 
 3301 . On the whole, you consider that no tuition, or course of training, would 
 be equal to that which can be obtained by being assistant to a collector, and 
 going through the various duties in that office ? — Yes, without hesitation I say 
 so. Let me at the same time state that there are very few offices which may 
 be called initiatory offices into the business to be performed by the civil service 
 in that country ; and those offices are becoming fewer in India every day, in 
 consequence of the employment of natives more generally. No doubt that 
 employment is of itself a great advantage, but it does cut out the servants of 
 the Company from preparatory offices, in which they might be trained to their 
 duties. 
 
 3302. .Mr. J. Fitzgerald.] In the eollectoi''s office would a young man acquire 
 that amount of knowledge which is essential to his being a zillah judge ? — Yes. 
 
 3303. Does he acquire a knowledge of the piinciplcs of law generally in the 
 collector's office, or of the rules of evidence ? — There is no school to teach the 
 principles of law, but he has the means of applying the princii)les of law, and 
 of seeing tlieir a])plication, by reason of the judicial duties which he has to per- 
 form. Of course, I expect that before he undertakes any office he will have 
 received some schooling, if I may so term it ; and at the College at Haileybury 
 he is taught the general piinciples of law. 
 
 3304. For instance, will he have any opportunity in the collector's dejmrt- 
 nient of ol)taining an adequate knowledge of the law of ordinary contracts, 
 independently of contracts connected with the land .'—With regard to the 
 provinces of India, where those men are placed, cases of mercantile contract 
 form a very small proportion of the cases which they have to decide. The 
 matters whicii they have to deal with are not so niuc-h matters relating to what 
 may be called contracts arising out of mercantile or general dealings, because 
 the people who come before them are not traders, or engaged in mercantile 
 pursuits, but persons in the situation of landlords and tenants, and of persons 
 claiming rights of inheritance and succession, and other rights in or to land 
 and property. The collectors have to decide c-ontracts relating to rent, and 
 engageuicnts or agreements iesi)ecting the produce of land, and respecting its 
 occupancy. The principle of decision upon such contracts is, however, the 
 
 same
 
 SFXECr COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERKITORIES. 303 
 
 same principle upon which you would decide contracts relating to goods. ./. r. i.eiilt lii 
 
 The main ([uestion is, whether a i)arty is bound. (>f course there mav be 
 
 collateral matters which would be peculiar to one and not to another, Init the -i April 185; 
 princi|)le is eonnnon to both. 
 
 330.5. Are the Committee to understand that in the zillah courts such 
 questions are not of ordinary occurrence ? — Not of s\ich ordinary occurrence. 
 
 3306. The majority of the cases relate to questions affecting land, and the 
 rights which arise out of it, and its alienation .' — I should say, from my recol- 
 lection, and from looking at the statistics on the subject, that three-fourths are 
 of the one description, and only about one-fourth of the other. 
 
 33117. A previous witness has stated that quesiions relating to land tenures 
 are exceptional cases in the zillah court? — For the very i*eason 1 have given, 
 that questions relating to land tenures are within the jurisdiction of the col- 
 lector. If the parties are dissatisfied with the decision of the collector in any 
 case relating to land tenures, they have an opportunity of going to the courts 
 of ordinary jurisdiction and there trying the title ; but the very fact that that 
 is seldom done shows that there is general satisfaction with the decision of the 
 collector. 
 
 3308. Does it often happen that judges are appointed to the zillah courts 
 who, though intimately acquainted with the law relating to land tenures, have 
 not an adequate knowledge of the law generally, or of the mode of conducting 
 a judicial inquiry.' — 1 could not say that they have all the knowledge which 
 might be desired. 
 
 3309. What remedy would you suggest for that defect? — lm])roving the pre- 
 sent means of education. There are three things to be considered: there is, 
 first, the preparatory collegiate education before leaving this country, which 
 should have, no doubt, a view to their future professional business ; secondly, 
 the professional training when they reach India ; and thirdly, the judicial 
 appointments which they ought to hold, involving the question of whether they 
 ought to be removed from those appointments when they have once taken 
 them. 
 
 3310. Do you think that the members of a local bar, practising in this con- 
 solidated court which you have described, would acquire that amount of know- 
 ledge, both of general law and of the peculiar law of India, whicii would after- 
 wards fit them to be zillah judges ? — Most assuredly, as far as judicial and all 
 practical knowledge goes. There is one thing, however, which is most essential 
 to a man performing the duties of a zillah judge in India, and that is a know- 
 ledge of the vernacular languages. 
 
 3311. Mr. j\/ang/esrj It has been stated in evidence that at Madras many of 
 the judges are entirely ignorant of the native languages ; what is your ex- 
 perience of the fact in Bengal and the North-western Provinces? — Quite the 
 reverse of that ; the only difficulty which sometimes arises is this, which can 
 easily be obviated, Hindostanee is used in the Upper Provinces and Bengalee in 
 the Lower. I have known inconvenience result from a man being removed 
 from the North-western Provinces, to which he had been accustomed for many 
 years, and where he has forgotten his Bengalee, though he may be a proficient 
 in Persian and a proficient in Hindostanee, and brought down to Bengal, where 
 he is placed in a position in which his Hindostanee and his Persian are of no 
 use to hiui, and he finds himself deficient in Bengalee. Those are matters of 
 detail, however ; but with regard to the general question, I most assuredly say 
 that the civil servants know the languages well. They may not know them all 
 well, but they know some well. 
 
 331 2. Mr. Alacunlai/.'] Did you ever hear cf a zillah judge who knew neither 
 Hindostanee nor Bengalee ? — No ; and I am satisfied that such a ease would 
 be regarded as so extraordinary in that part of India with which I was con- 
 nected, that 1 must have heard it. 
 
 3313. Mr. Elliot.] Is not it the case that the Hindostanee langiiage is 
 generally known in every part of Bengal ? — Yes , I should .>ay throughout 
 India; it is the lingiia franca of India. 
 
 3314. You can go into no court in India in which the Hindostanee language 
 would not be jjcrfectly intelligible to every officer of the court, and to a great 
 many of the persons present? — I should say that that would be generally the 
 case. 
 
 3315. Mr. Lowe.] What is the state of the law of libel in India; is it the 
 0.10. p p 4 same
 
 3<)4 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Leil/i, Eiq. same as in En2;land ? — In the Queen's courts it is exactly the same as in 
 ^^^Tj ; England ; in the Mofussil courts it is administered under the Regulations. 
 
 - - 1 ' 53- J i^j^yg known a case where a question arose out of the proceedings connected 
 Avith the Rajah of Burdwan's i)roperty. In the course of those proceedings an 
 attorney of the Sui)reme Court was grossly reflected on ; he brought his action 
 in the -zillah court, and it was appealed to the Sudder Uewanny Adawlut. 
 Those courts followed verv nuich our own proceedings in cases of libel, and 
 I believe the i)arty was protected on the ground of the proceedings being a pri- 
 vileged conmiunication. 
 
 3310. Is it your opinion that the law of libel in India is in a good state now, 
 or do you think it recjuisite that a stricter hand should be kept over the press ? 
 — If I am asked for a private opinion on a political question, I think that the 
 freedom of the jiress, unless you can put l)efoi'e the Legislature the prospect of 
 an immediate injury to the State, should be preserved. 
 
 3317. Do you think, taking it as an established fact that the press is free, 
 that the law of libel is sufficiently severe to curb it to the requisite extent ? — 
 I think so ; you have the same check that you have in this country. It is 
 required that every person who publishes a paper should record in the Govern- 
 ment office his connexion with the paper ; and you liave the means, through 
 the i)roprietor and publisher, of checking any particular paper which may dis- 
 seminate libellous articles. The only way in which a question ma)' arise is 
 from the difference of the country, and the position of those who are in it 
 from those who are in this country. I could not close my ears from hearing a 
 judicial servant of the Company state in his evidence here, the other day, that 
 he was in the habit of writing political articles in the papers against the Govei'n- 
 ment; I should say in cases of that kind, of course the most stringent domestic 
 rules which could be passed would be fully authorised, in order to put a stop to 
 it. Having regard, however, to the general good arising from free discussion, 
 I think, even in the case of their servants, the Legislature would hesitate to pass 
 a law which would prevent the ft-ee dissemination and discussion of topics of 
 general interest. 
 
 331 S. Is not the license to the press in India much greater than to the pi-ess 
 in England ; does not it deal more with private and domestic matters than the 
 press here r — As to the first, I would say I think not; and as to the second, 
 1 think that may arise from the fact tliat they have not the great matters to deal 
 with which the ijress in England has ; that habit is very much going out, because, 
 from the ra.pidity with which news now comes out, the papers have not exhausted 
 their stock of European news by one arrival before the next comes out. 
 
 3319. It is your opinion that there is no necessity for any increased seventy 
 of tlie law to keep the press in order? — Certainly; and unless it be of a domestic 
 character, that is to say, for tlie purpose of increasing the control whicli the 
 Government has over its own servants, I do not think there is any necessity for 
 it with regard to the public. 
 
 3320. Mr. MacauUuj.\ Is not the circulation of English newspapers confined 
 almost entirely to T'uropeans in India generally, and to natives at the Pre- 
 sidencies? — I should say tliat that is so as regards the English papers which 
 are pubhshed ; but then it must be recollected that throughout India native 
 papers are circulated. 
 
 33^1 . Tlie Act, which I myself drew up, which ])laced the press on its present 
 footing, gave liberty only to printed papers; are the printed Enghsh ])apers 
 generally read by the native community ? — No. 
 
 332J. Is not their circulation almost entirely conflned to a class of ])ersons 
 who cannot, in any conceivable circumstances, be su))i)osed to be inclined to 
 rise up against the Englisli GoTernment ? — Assuredly their interests are bound 
 up with the English (iovernment. 
 
 y:,2,^. Would it be })ossible to conceive that the utmost license of the press 
 in England could do any harm if nobody read the newspapers except masters 
 ill chancery. Directors of the Ivist India (.'ompauy, the judges, and justices of 
 the peace? — Certainly not. 
 
 3324. Is not that class analogous to the class which almost alone reads 
 Englisli news])apiTS in India? — Certainly ; but there is another class who are 
 almost as intimately connected with the wellbeing of the Government and the 
 establishment of our supremacy— those who are in an independent position like 
 myself; with regard to another class, who are living and becoming wealthy 
 
 under
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEKRI TORIES. 305 
 
 undci' our Covrrnmont, those who deal in the ejroat stn])lrs of India, iiuHsro and ./. /•'. l.ciili, I'.sfj. 
 
 silk, and those who haM' I'Airopoaii connexions, their interest^ are all Ijoiind up 
 
 and united with the interests of our Government. -' '^1"^'' 'S.TJ. 
 
 'S;^2'^. And it is inconeeivahle that the utmost license of the press ean ever 
 lead any of them to join in a eoiispiraey against the English Government r — 
 Most assuredly so. 
 
 3;32(i. On the other hand, have not the natives a set of newspapers of their 
 own in nianuseript ? — That I am not personally aware of ; I know they have 
 l)rinted papers ; 1 have seen some of those native i)rinted pa])ers ; the natives 
 arc very fond of gossi]i, and their pai)crs are elnefly filled witli gossip ; with 
 regard to jiolitical questions, thev mav be brought forward incidentally as a 
 part of that gossip, but 1 think the check which arises from English jjapers 
 going in the same course in which thev arc to go to the different /illahs prevents 
 any prejudicial effect that might arise from them. 
 
 3327. Sir T. II. JItiddock.] Are you aware that those printed native news- 
 papers generally contain translated extracts of everything of im])ortanc(^ Vvhieh 
 appears in the English newspajjcrs ? — I know those in the Presidencies do, 
 because, generally speaking, the men connected with the native press are 
 almost English in ideas and notions ; they I'cceive their opinions, therefore, as 
 much from t!ie English papers as from others ; but they very mucli belong to 
 the class of tradei's in Calcutta, who, having received a better and a literary 
 education, have become editors of literary papers. 
 
 3328. Mr Macaulai/.'] Do those papers go far into the Mofussil ? — I recol- 
 lect seeing one at Lucknow ; it referred to my own journey to the Upper Pro- 
 Ainces, which directeil my attention to it. I was surprised that the movements 
 of so humble an individual as myself should have been the subject of notice 
 in the paper. 
 
 332(). If there were any extreme danger to the peace of society from the 
 newspapers, could not four gentlemen, meeting in a room in Calcutta, pass a 
 resolution for stopping- the whole of the press in India ? — Assuredl} . 
 
 3331). Sir. T. 11. Maddocli.] Are you aware of the extent of circulation of 
 those native papers i — I am not. 
 
 333 1 . Are you aware that in every large town in the Mofussil there are one 
 or two native newspapers ? — 1 believe so. 
 
 3332. And consequently there must be a very extensive circulation of those 
 extracts from the English newspapers ' — My own impression is, and 1 know 
 the natives pretty well, that tlie natives would rather think it a very dull thing 
 to be treated with a disquisition on English politics ; they would be much 
 more pleased with passing gossip than with disquisitions on Goverinnent 
 matters. 
 
 3333. Are you aware that those printed native papers are read and circu- 
 lated universally in the native army of India ? — I am not aware of that. 
 
 3334. Are you aware that at the courts of the native princes of India, 
 numerous Enghsh newspapers are taken in ? — I am not aware of that. 
 
 333.")- Climnnan.'] To retin-n to the subject of the Mofussil courts, and the 
 mode of the administration of justice in the provinces, are there any further 
 changes which you would recommend r — I know there are great defects in those 
 courts. There is one, which I think is a most important matter for consider- 
 ation : I refer to the mode of taking the examination of witnesses. The pre- 
 sent mode has crept in as a habit ; but I believe it is opposed to the Regulations 
 and to the desire of the Government; that is, that instead of the judge 
 examining the witness, a native official may, perhaps, constructively in the 
 presence of the court, but certainly not actually in the hearing of the judge, 
 examine the witness ; he may be sitting in one corner of the court, and there- 
 fore be constructively in the presence of the judge, but not within his hearing ; 
 he sits down, with two vakeels before him, and examines the witness ; this 
 native official takes down the examination ; all that the judge has to do is, that, 
 before it is signed, he calls up the Avitnc^ss and asks him if this is what he has 
 stated ; he says "yes," and he signs it; the judge may sometimes ask if any- 
 thing is desired to be added. The proceedings in court are by plaint, answer, 
 replication, and rejoinder. Great advantage would be obtained by a strict 
 observance of the Regulation regarding those pleadings ; the Regulation contains 
 admirable rules for the regulation of those pleadings, but unfortunately, through 
 the remissness of the judges, they are not observed ; the plaint, instead of 
 
 0.10. Qq being
 
 3oti MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J . F. Leith, Esq. being confined to a statement of the case of the party, is full of a.vast number 
 
 of extraneous and irrelevant matters, which have nothing whatever to do with 
 
 21 April 1853. the real matter in issue, and is arguraentati\e ; when the answer comes in, the 
 answer is of the same character ; then comes the reply ; and the reply, instead 
 of confining itself merely to answering the matter contained in the answer, 
 again \\ peats, with extreme verbosity, that which had been stated in the plaint, 
 with new arguments, if they occur, and other matters ; and then again the 
 defendant has a rejoinder; so that this, in fact, makes a vast deal of unnecessary 
 business for the judge ; it encumbers the record, and it has been felt as a matter 
 of such difHculty in the Privy Council lately that their Lordships have thought 
 it necessary to institute an inquiry how they can cut down that immense load of 
 unnecessary matter which now encumbers the record in coming over to this 
 country. Having got so far with the pleadings, the judge settles the issues • 
 between the parties, so that it should be clearly understood to what the ; 
 evidence is to apply. He directs that evidence should be brought forward as 
 to those issues which are settled by him, the vakeels being present. He ought • 
 to enter the issues upon the record at that time, that the parties may have full - 
 notice what is to be tried, so as to bring forward their witnesses and their 
 documentary proofs. Then comes the examination of the witnesses, which . 
 forms a separate and distinct matter altogether from and takes place before 
 the hearing, and that is the examination which I have objected to ; because, 
 instead of the judge having all the advantage of seeing the witnesses, and the 
 manner in which they give their evidence, and observing all those impoitant 
 matters which guide the mind of a judge, and which are so essential in order 
 for him in every case, especially in India, where there is always conflicting 
 testimony, to judge of the value of the evidence, he loses the whole of that 
 assistance, and he has merely to read the evidence in a written form, as an 
 appellate court would do. 
 
 ^■•,\]^. Sir /. ir. Hogg.'] Are you aware that an Act either has been passed, 
 or is under consideration, reqviiring the zillah judge to take all the evidence of 
 the witnesses viva voce, exactly as you have suggested, thereby doing away with 
 the old system of written depositions?—! was not aware of that. 
 
 3337. Mr. Macaulay.] Do you conceive that it would be possible, by intro- 
 ducing, to some extent at least, a system of oral pleadings, to diminish the 
 evils which you have mentioned ? — That, no doubt, would be an advantage in 
 manv cases ; but it might have inconveniences in other cases with regard to 
 natives of rank, who would think it derogatory to them to come into the 
 courts. They have now the power of being heard by their vakeels, the doing 
 awaj' with which might interfert; with very important considerations with 
 regard to position and rank and caste. 
 
 S?,3''^- Chairman.] Would you recommend that the use of the English lan- 
 guage should be made compulsory in tlie zillah courts ? — I am verj" much 
 indeed against it. I think it would interfere very much with the proper admi- 
 nistration of justice in the Mofussil ; but the chief objection to it \\ oul4 be 
 this : it is not only essential that we should do justice, hut that the natives 
 should know and beheve that we do so ; and therefore, though there might be 
 advantages arising from having a trained and educated English judge, one who 
 has passed through some of the ordeals that a barrister must go through, I think, 
 after considering the question most closely in all its features, and with regard to 
 the particular circumstances in which such a judge would be placed, I could not 
 conscientiously advise an English barrister to be taken from England to be placed 
 at once in the position of a judge, so that it should be rendered necessaiy to 
 introduce theuse exclusively of the Englisli language into the Mofussil Courts. 
 
 3'i.)d- ^^ ould you make it incumbent upon those judges, and in what cases, 
 to employ juries ? — I think that would be very difficult to be carried out in 
 many cases ; and I should never advise a law to be passed which it would be 
 difficult to give effect to. I know so well the apathy of the natives, that I am 
 persuaded there would be the greatest difficulty in getting them to act upon 
 juries, unless they themselves had im inunediate personal interest in the matter ; 
 and if that interest led them to act, I should think of covu'se it would be lietter 
 that they should not be tiiere. To pay them for coming would not probably 
 be consonant with our ideas of what is right. 
 
 3340. The option in many cases exists of having a jury now, does not it? — 
 Yes ; it is entirely in the breast of the judge, whether he will avail himself of it 
 
 or
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITORIES. .307 
 
 or not. They have the puiichayet, which is more in the nature of arhitration, /. f. Ldth, Esq. 
 
 where the judge has the power to refer the suits or points in dispute to natives; — . 
 
 they decide out of court, and stnd in their report ^Another case is where they ai April 1853. 
 
 sit with him as assessors on the judgment-seat, giving him their ohservations 
 
 as the case proceeds, and so enabUng him to cU'cide upon tlie case ; that is par- 
 
 ticuhirly used where there are native accounts to be looked into. The tliird 
 
 case is where they give a verdict, and there sometimes great dissatisfaction 
 
 arises ; these men are invited to attend, and after they have attendeil. and 
 
 given their labour and time to the inc|uiry, when thev have given their verdict, 
 
 the judge sometimes does not make use of it; and they think that not com- 
 
 phmentary, and therefore it prevents in some measure the working of that 
 
 system. 
 
 .■3341. Would you make any change with respect to the present magisterial 
 duties? — That opens a very wide question with regard to the power whieli those 
 magistrates may have over British-born subjects, and as to the general criminal 
 law of India, whether the whole country should be put under one criminal law 
 or not. if there is to be a magistrate having jurisdiction in the first instance, 
 I think it would be wise to institute something in the nature of a quarter 
 sessions, which migli be easily obtained without any additional expense, by 
 associating together the zillah judge, the magistrate, and the princi])al sudder 
 aniin. From a magistrate there might be a writ in the nature of a certiorari 
 to In'ing the proceedings before him to this tribunal ; 1 think that even British- 
 born subjects in the neighbourhood might not object to sueh a tribunal, with 
 such improved Court of Appeal at the Presidency. It has hitherto appeared to 
 me, tliat one great difficulty in the inti-oductiini of a criminal law into India 
 at the present time, results from the species of antagonism which arose many 
 years ago, and still more or less prevails between those British subjects, with 
 respect to whou'i principally this question of criminal law would apply, and the 
 covenanted servants of ihe Company: I refer to the indigo planters, and those 
 who are engaged in the great manufacturing and trading staples of the country. 
 There lias hitherto been a very great division and separation among those two 
 classes. From this, in some measure, has proceeded a feeling whicii is not such 
 as to lead to a harmonious working among those who, as British subjects, ought 
 all to have one object in view, viz., the due administration of justice. That 
 feeling arose probably, in the first instance, at the time the civil servants of the 
 Company were prevented from trading. The)^ originally traded, and when they 
 were prohibited by the Government from trading, a new class of people came in 
 to occupy their indigo factories, whicli has given rise to the sort of feeling 
 which now prevails ; and there is more separation between those classes than 
 there ought to be, having regard to the well-being of the country. AVith humble 
 deference, I would suggest one means by which, 1 think, the wall of separation 
 might in some measure be removed. Give to those among the manufacturing 
 class who are now educated ni^n, and in a position of respectability, and able to 
 fulfil the duties of the office, the powers of honorary justices of the )jeace, and 
 you would give them immediately an interest in the administration of justice. The 
 Government have, in Calcutta and its neighbourhood, extended the commission 
 of the peace to other than the paid magistrates, and have made them honorary 
 justices of the peace. 1 would make these men in the Mofussil justiee.< of the 
 peace, so as to make them responsible, and lead them to feel their respon- 
 sibility, for aiding in the administration of justice I would suggest this also : 
 that at the quarter sessions they, as honorary justices of the peace, might take 
 their seats beside the official members of that body, so that they might see that 
 justice was administered and be inspired at the same time with confidence in it, 
 and led to feel that they are a part of the machinery for the administration of 
 justice throughout the country. I think a great amount of moral aid would be 
 given everywhere to the official members of the Government service, if some- 
 thing of that kind were adopted. I was in India when the discussions took 
 place, first with regard to Act 4, of 1S43. with respect to removing the juris- 
 diction from the zillah magistrate into the ordinary courts, in cases of trespass 
 and assault by British subjects against the natives; and 1 have become 
 intimately acquainted with the very strong feeling whic^h has prevailed against 
 the introduction of a general law for ])uttiug Euroiiean subjects, in criminal 
 cases, under the courts as now constituted of the East India Company ; and 
 1 think that a great barrier, which now stands in the way, would be removed 
 
 0.10. Q Q 2 by
 
 3o8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 /. ;■". Leitli, Ehj. l)y that sii,£c;e£tion which I iiave taken the hberty of bringing before the Com 
 ; ~' niitt( e. You must, in the first phiee. improve the courts, 1 think, as far as you 
 
 '"' I" •'•^" possibly can. They will improve themselves more, after you bring British-born 
 subjects within their jurisdiction ; but I do think that, liefore you place them 
 under the jurisdiction of those courts, you are bound to improve the courts as 
 far as })ossibly lies in your power, and then 1 am sure they wiii improve them- 
 selves subsequently. 
 
 3342. jNIr. 3Icm(/les.] Do you think it would be safe to entrust such magis- 
 terial ])owers to indigo planters, who are so constantly engaged in disputes with 
 their brother indigo planters as to lands, and also involved in differences with 
 the ryots about the cultivation of those lands ?- -I have well considered those 
 difficulties ; 1 believe that the exercise of those powers, and letting them feel 
 that they were responsible ministers of justice, would have very mncli the effect 
 of lessening the duties of the magistrate in respect of those very offences 
 which are referred to. First let them feel that they are responsible ministers of 
 justice, and then visit any offence that they may commit in the strongest way 
 the Government may think tit ; but 1 think those disputes themselves \A0uld be 
 very much reduced in number, if not entirely prevented, by that means. If 
 any ([uestion arose in which, a partv himself was concerned, of course his own 
 powers would not be to be exercised in the matter. 
 
 3343. 'Sir. Maaiiday.'] Was not it the fact that, while the Company's servants 
 continued to be concerned in trade, very frightful oppressions were the conse- 
 quence f — No doubt that was so in the first instance, with their peculiar power 
 powers and the state of the country then ; but the persons who are now the 
 heads of the indigo jilantations are a very different class from what they were in 
 former days, and may be, I think, entrusted with the limited powers of 
 honorary justices of the peace. 
 
 3344. You were referring to the time when they were prohibited from trad- 
 ing ; was not that the result of the oppressions which had arisen from the 
 circumstance of those merchants being armed with the powers of the Supreme 
 Government of the country, and using the powers they possessed as public 
 servants for the purpose of asserting their own rights as creditors ? — I am not 
 aware of the fact but from historical knowledge, but at those times, certainly, 
 being Government servants gave them an advantage in coming in contact with 
 the reg\dar trader ; not only would they have what might be called a legitimate 
 advantage in going into the market, but 1 think it would also give them an 
 illegitimate advantage, in being able to obtain for less money their goods and 
 factories from tho>e who thought they might obtain benefits from them in the 
 exercise of those functions as Government servants in the offices which they 
 were allowed to carry on. With respect to oppression, I do not recollect any 
 instances of o])pressi(m further than those which were connected with the 
 establishment of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court was established for 
 the purpose of controlling those British born subjects who were the servants of 
 the Clovcrnmcnt at that time. The Supreme Court was originallv established 
 with the jurisdiction which it has now over all British-born subjects iu the 
 country who were the Company's servants, for the purpose of protecting the 
 natives against them. 
 
 334.1. Do not you think it possible, that by arming a considerable number 
 of indigo planters with the power of the magistracy, you might possibly pro- 
 duce a renewal of something of those former scenes? — I would not give them 
 the power of magistrates in the sense in which that term is usi'd in India. All 
 officers of justice, strictly speaking, are magistrates; but I speak of them only as 
 justices of the peace, intending onlv that they should do that whicli an honorary 
 ju.stice of the peace would do in England, having merely initiative powers, the 
 I)ower of taking evidence, and sending up the depositions to the magistrate, 
 the criminal judge. 
 
 334(i. Mr. Elliof.] Does not it frequently hai)])en now that the natives refer 
 to indigo jjlanters of respectability to (k'cide their cases? — Assuredly; that is 
 within my own personal knowledge ; they very generall}^ act as arbitrators in 
 the district in which they are situated. The natives are well ])leased to take 
 the oi)inion of an educated indigo ])huiter instead of going to the court. 
 
 3.547 • ^Vhere that practice jjrevails, a great many cases are referred to such 
 l)ersons, are they not .'—Yes, by the natives themselves. 
 
 3348. Sir
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERllITORIES. .joo 
 
 334S. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] Have you ever visited the district of Tirlif)ot r — ./. f\ Ac(7A,|Esq. 
 No, I liave never been in Tirhoot. '_ 
 
 334;). Have you ever heard that in tliat district, where the indiiro planters .j, .\,rili8^3, 
 are very numerous, they have establislied such a court of arbitration among 
 themselves, as to prevent any suits whatever of a criminal nature apjx'aring 
 before the magistrate ? — I was not aware of that. 
 
 33,'',(i. .Mr. Jlin/ie.] You havi; alluded to the new zillah courts ; liow far, in 
 your 0|)inion, ought the natives and the Eurojjcans to be ])laced under tlic 
 same laws in every part of the country ? — I think it would be a great good if 
 such could be done. At the same time, we must have reference to the (jues- 
 tion which arises as to the dislinctions which exist in point of religion ; but 
 that, I think, presents no impossil)ility; it is only a matter to be kei)t in view, in 
 order that the Legislature maj- regulate whatever they do in reference to it. 
 
 33,5'- ^Vould not that distinction between Hindoos and Mussulmans apply 
 more to (juestions of])roperty, and those )iarticular matters which are regulated 
 by tlieir own laws, than to the administration of justice as coimected with the 
 peace of the country? — Certainly. ISiuce the establislnuent of the Con\pany's rule 
 in India, since they acquired the Dewanny in \7i)'>, Wai-ren Hastings, and the 
 mendiers of the Council, under the direction of the Court of Directors, made 
 an inquiry, and reported the result of that incjniry as to the constitution of the 
 Mahomedan courts as they Avere then established. In that report they shewed 
 what was the state of the Mahomedan courts, a reference to which certainly 
 will bring into very favourable contrast the state of the administration of the 
 law in India at the present day. Although some persons are fond of drawing 
 invidious comparisons between what is now the state of the administration of 
 the law in India, and what it was in the time of our INIahomedan predecessors, 
 the contrast appears striking, and very much in favour of the courts as they are 
 now constituted, and the administration of the law in them, as contradis- 
 tinguished from its administration in the Mahomedan courts which preceded 
 them. In the report which was made by Warren Hastings and the members of 
 the Council, as to what the constitution of the courts should be, they recom- 
 mend that, as far as possible, the usages and customs of the natives should be 
 observed ; and one of the things which they advised was, that in administering 
 the law they should have, in all matters of inheritance, marriage, and caste, and 
 in all suits regarding their religious usages and institutions, they should have 
 their own laws administered to them ; the Hindoo law to the Hindoos, and the 
 Mahomedan law to the Mahomedans. Then Lord Cornwallis's system came in, 
 and in the new regulations which were made in 1793, the same princi])le was 
 observed ; in the great regulation of his time, which regulated the constitution 
 of the courts and the administration of justice, it was adopted ; and there is 
 still this same exception, tliat in all cases between Hindoos ami Mahomedans 
 the law of the defendant shall prevail. The word "contract" does not appear 
 there ; it is only in cases of inhei-itance and succession to property, and cases of 
 marriage, adoption, and caste. With regard to contracts, therefore, the courts 
 of the Mofussil have been unrestricted, and they have had no law to decide by, 
 except what they could derive from the customs and usages of the people. The 
 Supreme C'ourt also has been confined to administering those customs and laws ; 
 with this addition, that the English statute, the 21st of George the Third, 
 directs that the Supreme Covu't shall administer the Mahomedan law to Maho- 
 medans, and the Hindoo law to Hindoos, in all cases of inheritance, succession, 
 marriage, and so on, and in all cases of contract and dealing ; so that the con- 
 stitution of the Supreme Court differs from the others in that respect. I should 
 say that, in any legislation in regard to the natives of India, the same distinction 
 should be kept in view, with the exception of that in which the Suj)reme Court 
 differs from the others. I do not see any necessity for giving them any particular 
 law as to contract and deahng, for this reason: having reacl carefully the lUndoo 
 law and the Mahomedan law, and knowing the Roman civil law, and knowing, 
 also, the basis of our laws of contract in England, I am able to say there is very 
 little material difference among them; and as I believe the principles of the 
 B Oman civil law proceeded from the East, and as I find the Hindoo law was 
 there reduced to writing in the l'2th or i;5th century before- Christ, it is not sur- 
 prising that we in it tind something analogous to that which we find existing 
 afterwards, and to what was introduced into the code of Justinian in the year 
 600 after Christ. I apprehend there will be no difficulty, even in the matter of 
 
 0.10. Q Q 3 contracts,
 
 310 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Leithy Esq. contracts, in finding common principles among the whole which might form the 
 
 basis of a uniform system for the fidministration of justice on that subject, not 
 
 21 April 1853. only among the Hindoos and the Mahomedans, but among other classes, such 
 as the Armenians, who have long prayed to be relieved from their anomalous 
 position of having no law, and who wish to have their contracts and all their 
 affairs regulated by the English law, and the other tribes or classes who are 
 there, as well as British-born subjects. 
 
 j'i:\2. Sir T. H. Maddock.] .Are you aware whether those principles which 
 you have explained as having been laid down for the guidance of the British 
 Courts in India, have been followed up to this date ? — Certainly ; that, how- 
 ever, has been materiallv affected by an Act of the local Legislature, Act 21, 
 of 1850. 
 
 33.53. What was the nature of that Act? — That Act has placed the heir of 
 the Mahomedan or Hindoo in a different position, with regard to property, from 
 that in which he was placed by the Hindoo and Mahomedan law ; and lias so 
 far altered their respective laws of inheritance and succession, by having 
 declared that no man should, by reason of the change of his religion, be 
 deprived of his propertv. There are, however, three classes to which the law 
 applies : first, to one who has been excluded from the communion of any religion ; 
 another who may have excluded himself; and I think the third is one who may 
 have lost caste. So that, in fact, having regard to the original Act, which is 
 pointed to in this Act, 21 of 1850, viz., the Act of 1832, Act 21, of 1850, which 
 introduced a change into Bengal for the purpose of protecting- a class which is 
 increasing daily, that is, native Christians, and providing that they should not 
 be losers i^sy their change of religion, has, at the same time, introduced a new 
 class of persons to the benefits of the Act, who may not have changed their 
 religion, and as to whom the question of religion does not occur ; and to whom 
 the right to the family inheritance, or to those privileges and interests in the 
 property which by the Hindoo law they would otherwise be excluded from, is 
 retiuned. The effect of it would be this : if a Hindoo widow, who is entitled by 
 law to succeed upon the death of her husband, without sons, as the heir of her 
 husband, and who is entitled to reside in the joint family house, were to become 
 a prostitute, but remaining a Hindoo, she would still be entitled to hold the 
 property, and also be entitled to remain in the joint family house with the other 
 females. 
 
 33.14. Has that change in the law been considered very injurious to the 
 Hindoos ? — The Hindoos have felt it very strongly, and have chai'acterised it 
 as a breach of faith on the part of the Government with the Hindoo commu- 
 nit}-, because they considered that their own laws with regard to inheritance 
 and succession were guaranteed to them by the Indian Government, and by 
 the Imperial Government in the Act of the British Parliament, and the 
 Regulations of the East India Company. Several thousands of Hindoos have 
 petitioned Parliament for the repeal of this Act. 
 
 33'i5- Chainnan^ \ o\\ would I'ecommend that a uniform system of civil 
 law should be applied to all except Hindoos and Mahomedans ? — Yes. It would 
 require great care in the preparation of such a system of law. The men 
 engaged in preparing it must be well acquainted with the necessities of India, 
 and the people there, in order to do it well. They must also be !! en of enlarged 
 mind, and having an extensive knowledge of the practical working of laws in 
 order tliat it might be carried out. With regard to the criminal code, one was 
 made, though tliat never has been brought into operation. 
 
 33 ib. .Sir T. H. Maddock.^ Are you of opinion that in any future legislation 
 for India it will be desirable or necessary for Parliament to pass any resolu- 
 tion or any law confirmatory of those rights which the Hindoos and Maho- 
 medans have considered themselves entitled to since the time of Warren 
 Hastings? — I should say. if my opinion is askeil, that I think they have a pre- 
 scriptive right to the use of their own laws. From the very fir.st establishment 
 of our courts this was recognised as a right which they were entitled to; and that 
 was only following u]) what had been done by (mr Mahomedan predecessors, for 
 it is quite clear, with regard to the Mahomedans, that they allowed to the 
 Hindoos the free exercise of their religion and their laws in all matters con- 
 nected with inlieritance, !<uecession, marriage, and caste. 
 
 .'}j57- Mr. Mticuulaij^ But they brought in their own criminal law ? — They 
 brought in their own criminal law. 
 
 3358. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITORIKS. j;, 
 
 3358. Mr. Mdn^ides.'] You would not desire that Hindoo laws and customs j. p, leuh, Esq. 
 
 should be upheld where they are opposed to the priiieii)les of natural justice 
 
 and reason, would you? — Certainly not; but that is a very wide questioti. a 1 April 1853. 
 With regard to natural justice and reason, I take it that that is not natural 
 
 justice and reason which any ])articular individual may consider to he so, l)ut 
 only that which is agreeable to those universal and fundamental principles 
 which are to be regarded as the foundation of the science of natural law. 1 at 
 once say, as a lawyer, that no law should be in contradiction to those funda- 
 mental principles which are the test of the excellence or the defects of all 
 positive law. The Hindoo law and .Mahomedan law were not in this respect 
 opposed to natural law. 
 
 3359. Take the case of suttee, for example : — Suttee is not required by the 
 Hindoo law. 
 
 3360. The sacrifice of infants at Saughor } — I doubt that too ; Professor 
 Wilson has stated that it is a mistake of construction, and that in the 
 Hindoo law there was nothing known higher than the sacrifice of a horse ; that 
 human sacrifices were not known to the Hindoo law. Those, however, are 
 particular usages introduced from time to time, and are distinct from those 
 fundamental rules which regulate the domestic rights of the Hindoos — marriage, 
 and all the rights which flow from it. These last are matters totally different 
 from the modes of expressing their particular reHgion, which are dependent 
 upon particular usage. 
 
 33(1 1 . Do you think it equitable that a man should lose his patrimonial 
 inheritance because he changes his religion : — I would say that the condition 
 upon which he is entitled to it must be considered : as among the Romans, 
 the Hindoo son has the right to the inheritance, and he is liable for the debts of 
 the father ; it is by reason of the famity wor.^hip, as in the case of the Romans, 
 that this heir is pointed out as having a right independent of the father, in order 
 to carry on the religious worship of the family. With regard to the Hindoo, 
 he thinks his soul is redeemed from " put" or hell by his son ; the name of an 
 adopted son points to that, and it is by reason of the benefits to the soul of 
 the deceased and his ancestors which the Hindoo son can secure that he is 
 entitled to be heir. Therefore it is, as it were, a condition annexed to the soil 
 or to the inheritance that he should be in a situation to perform those duties 
 and ceremonies which give him his cLiim to the inheritance, and if he has 
 incapacitated himself for the performance of those duties, it is not the law that 
 has taken it from him, because by reason of his own act no right has accrued 
 to him- I do not consider this a religious question, and 1 would guard myself 
 against being supposed so to argue it. In India I supported the missionaries 
 to the best of my humble ability, both with my purse and with my professional 
 advice ; I was their adviser on many occasions, and in every way their friend. 
 But this, I think, was a short-sighted policy ; it was man trying to do God's 
 work in man's way, not in God's way (wrong should not be done that good 
 may come), and 1 think it has rather thwarted the object which all who are 
 anxious for the spread of Christianit} in India have in view. I say further that 
 they have not followed the Gospel in it ; Christ said, " Leave ail and follow 
 me;" they say, " Take all and follow me." I say it would have been a better 
 proof of conversion that a person should be wiUing to leave his family pro- 
 perty than that he should take the family property when becoming a Christian. 
 Injury is thought to be done to the father and to all those who look to the 
 Hindoo son as the means of securing these important sphitual benefits to them ; 
 I do think, both as a uiatter of policy and as a matter of principle, the Act in 
 question was unauthorised and unjust. 
 
 3362. Chairman.] How are the cpiestions which arise between native states 
 determined, questions not of political but of positive law ? — A very great in- 
 convenience has arisen, to ruy own knowledge, from the want of a tribunal for 
 that purpose. In consequence of the British Government being the paramount 
 authority, and the whole of the native states being, as it were, a republic of 
 states, who would, if there were no supreme controlling authority, decide their 
 disputes by appealing to arms, it was necessary that there should be some 
 influence exercised by the British Government, and in all questions of dispute 
 those states have to refer to the British Government for its decision. In many 
 cases those disputes arise, not as disputes of a political character, in which 
 case I should be very sorry to interfere with any legitimate exercise of the 
 
 0.10. Q Q 4 authority
 
 312 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Le.ih, Esq autluirity of the Government, but from questions purely of a legal character, 
 on wliieli the resident at the Court, and after the resident at the Court, the 
 
 31 April 1853. Governor-general in Council, is called on to decide without having the means 
 of doini: so ; a duty Avhich I should think they would be glad to relieve them- 
 selves of. To give an instance, 1 will refer to a case which I am myself 
 acquainted with, affecting the interests of one of the first independent states in 
 India, the iJajpoot state of Joudpore. The present Rajah of Joudpore was 
 elected according to the customs and usages of the Rajpoots, by the Ranee 
 and Sirdars, liajah of Joudpore. When he was elected the Rajah of Eur 
 laid claim to the Ra] of Ahmednuggur, the Rajah of Joudpore's family Raj. 
 Tlie claim was met by showing that there had been an adoption by tlie widow 
 of the late Rajah of Ahmednuggur of the eldest son of the Rajah of Joudpore. 
 The first question was one of a legal character, of mixed law and fact ; first, as 
 to the fact of the adoption ; and, secondly, as to whether it was a legal adoption, 
 the Ranee having adopted a son of the brother of her deceased husband. The 
 Rajah of Eur also claimed the Raj on the ground that it was a lapsed fief of 
 Eur. It was, on the other hand, denied that it was a fief of Eur. Those several 
 questions of law and fact upon which the whole turned were decided by several 
 residents and political agents at Joudpore, Colonel Sutherland at their head, in 
 favour of the son and family of the Rajah of Joudpore to hold their family Raj 
 of Ahmednuggur. Those were on the Bengal side, and one Resident on the 
 Bombay side decided the other way; but the case was sent down to the Governor- 
 general in Council, and he confirmed the opinions of Colonel Sutherland and 
 others, in favour of the family of the Rajah of Joudpore. The question was 
 sul)sequentl)' reopened, and the Court of Directors were referred to. 1 hey 
 directed that the questions of law should be decided by the law of Guzerat. 
 Now, with all deference, that was a mistake, because in the Rajpoot states, the 
 laws and customs of the state where the case occurred should have prevailed, 
 and not the territorial law of Guzerat. The Governor-general in Council 
 referred the case to the Bombay Council, and it was referi-ed to one of the 
 members of that council, who decided the case against the family of the Rajah 
 of Joudpore, to the effect that there was no adoption ; that the adoption of the 
 son of a brother was a bad adoption ; whereas, by the Hindoo law, they were 
 bound to adopt him ; and as to the fief, they dealt with it thus : that as the 
 Rajah of Eur had been disappointed in not being elected to the Raj of Joudpore, 
 it was but justice that he should get the other Raj of Ahmednuggur ; the whole 
 case of that Raj has, therefore, come to this country for the purijose of the 
 Joudpore Rajah's obtaining justice, this decision having raised a very strong 
 feeling in one of the most important independent states in India. 
 
 3363. To what tribunal would you refer such cases? — The Governor-general 
 might refer them to the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, where counsel might be 
 heard ; and if tlieir decision were not satisfactory, there might be an appeal to 
 Her Majesty in Council. 
 
 33(i4. With regard to the jn-esent state of education and training at Hailey- 
 bury, do you consider that that is well calculated to fit young men for the 
 judicial offices which they are destined to occupy? — 1 think tliere are very many 
 advantages attaching to Haileybury as a separate training establishment ; that 
 the course of instruction there may be improved, I certainly think ; but it 
 would be rather in matters of detail than in what may be called its general 
 princii)le. 1 think that the particular subject which I am more particularly 
 interested in as the law professor, might become a more prominent and impor- 
 tant feature in the curriculum of study ; I think it ouglit to be made essential 
 that all the young men should not only pursue the study of the hiw, but should 
 (jualify in it before going out to India, whereas the education is now chiefly 
 (hrected to securing their cpialification in the Oriental langiiages. The study 
 of the law has been made subordinate to the Oriental studies which are pur- 
 sued at the College at Haileybury, instead of being made so important a branch 
 as I tliink it ought to be in tlie jjrofessional education of the civil servants. 
 I think there is no office to which a civil servant can be appointed which does 
 not partake of a juridical character, and very few offices which have not a 
 judicial character attached to them; nothing, therefore, can be of greater 
 inq)ortanc(' than that those who are to occupy them should have at least a 
 thorough knowledge of the universal princii)les of natural law, and of the 
 general science of jurisprudence. 
 
 3365. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURITORIRS. 313 
 
 336.',. Mr. Macanhn/.'] You said tliat the office of tlio collector afforded a J. F I.ri;h. E.'<q. 
 
 very good means of training for the judicial otKcC; on account of the great ex- 
 
 tent of really judicial business which is there transacted? — Yes. ^i April 1853. 
 
 3366. It follows from that that a judicial education is of great importance to 
 fit a person for cm])Ioymcnt in the Revenue Department ? — Certainly. 
 
 3367. Chairman ] Is it, in your oi)inion, necessary to have a distinct place of 
 education like Ilaileybury, to fit young men to occupy judicial situations in 
 India: — I tliink it is heneticial. 'NVith regard, to tlic particidar studies which 
 it is necessary a young man should go through, they can be advantageouslv 
 pursued there. ^Vith regard to my own department of the law, iiulcpendentlv 
 of that general knowledge of jurisin'udcncc which I take care the yoiuig men 
 shall have, I endeavour to make them acquainted with those peculiar laws 
 which they will have to administer in India, and I show them the books where 
 they will have to apply for that law when they go there, and I make them 
 acquainted with the constitution and jurisdictions of the courts in which they 
 may be called on to act. I do not give them technical knowledge, but I give 
 them practical knowledge; that is, the application of principles. I take, as 
 illustrating those genei-al principles of jurisprudence, the Roman civil law and 
 the English law as the best e.xjionents of those principles of universal jurispru- 
 dence, and 1 then show them the analogies between their principles and those 
 of the two laws whi(,'h they themselves will be called on to administer, the 
 Maliomedan and Hindoo laws. I believe it is the object of the Court of Directors, 
 that a legal education of that kind shall be given to those who are proceeding 
 to India. If it is to be made a test before young men proceed to India that 
 they should have a knowledge of law, I do not see why the men who go out 
 from Haileybury should not be as qualified to lill the jjositions which they will 
 hold in India as if they had been called to the bar. 
 
 3368. From your knowledge and experience in India, are you of opinion that 
 the plan of education pursued at Haileybury should be maintained, with any 
 practical improvements which may be introdiiced ? — I think so, for this reason : 
 I think the ver}^ system i*^self is advantageous in this way ; we must look at 
 India, and at the position which a civil servant of the Company occupies there ; 
 it is to a great extent a peculiar country, and one of exile ; a young man is sent 
 out to a distance from his friends, or family, or connexions ; now he has at 
 Haileybury established friendships and connexions before he goes out. He 
 proceeds cheerfully to India, not as a solitary and isolated individual, nor as 
 going to a country where he will know no one, but the connexions which have 
 been formed, and the competition which has been begun, will follow him, and 
 be carried out in India with the most beneficial effects. 1 think we are not 
 sufficienrly aware of the moral influence whicli their education together and 
 associiJtion at Haileybury produces upon the members of the Indian civil service 
 as a body, in giving them the high tone and character which they now ])ossess. 
 Think of the temptations which there are in India I A man proceeds to an 
 isolated position, without any person to overlook him, se[)arated from his own 
 family and connexions, and those who would exercise a control over him. Tlie 
 person who goes out from Haileybury proceeds to and among friends, those who 
 are known to him, who will afford him advice, assistance, encouragement and 
 suppoit, and who are at the same time watching him. There is an " esprit " on 
 his part as regards the class to which he belongs, that he shall do nothing 
 dishonourable to it. I think there is a most beneficial moral influence exerted 
 over everv man who goes out from Haileybury, from the fact that he has been 
 educated there among the members of his own service, and that there has been 
 formed a common bond of union between himself and the community of which 
 he forms a part. Whatever may be the faults of the jjresent system of ajjpoint- 
 ing to the service the effect is extremely good. After a severe examination and 
 testing of the capacities of the several students now at Haileybury, 1 can con- 
 scientiously say there is as good raw material among them for making judges, 
 statesmen, and legislators, as will be found in any institution in the kingdom. 
 
 3360. ]Mr. 1110)11'.] Do you consider that the separation which characterizes 
 the students intended for the civil service in India at Haileybui-y gives them a 
 sufficient knowledge of the world generally ; do not you consider that an inter- 
 course with other classes might tend to prepare them for the iuiportant duties 
 they have to perform in India betti r than the secluded system which is now 
 adopted? — That question might possil)ly arise, but if we really look at the 
 
 0. 10. R R svstem
 
 3M MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Leith, Esq. System which is pursued at Haileybury, I do not see that- they are shut out 
 .. from those advantages which have been referred to, because they are not kept 
 
 21 April 1853. there as monks ; they do mix with the world: for a certain portion of each 
 year they are with their famihes, and with the world ; therefore, you have all 
 that which the question points to, and you have something beyond, namely, a 
 particular training with reference to the particular situations which they are 
 hereafter to hold. 
 
 3371). Supposing the same young men to be placed in the University of 
 Oxford, or of Cambridge, in daily intercourse with students of all classes, do 
 not you consider that there would be a better opportunity afforded to young 
 men intended for India of finding their own level, and acquiring a greater 
 amount of knowledge than that aflorded to them at Haileybury ? — That mode 
 of comparing oneself with another w'hich the public institutions give, has been 
 obtained by many of the young men who come to Haileybury who have pre- 
 viously been at public schools ; but I think that the numbers even at Hailey- 
 bury are sufficient to give that advantage. It is not like a small school ; it is 
 a large collegiate institution. If a man is at the University, he does not mingle 
 with "the whole University; he only mingles with a portion of it. If then the 
 institution at which he is'placed is sufficiently large to enable him to have certain 
 advantages, it does not require to be larger. 
 
 3371. is not it the fact, with respect to all those who are now at Haileybury, 
 that they form as it were one class, their studies being directed to one object, 
 and their intercourse therefore all tending to that object, and not to the 
 general affairs of the world ? — I think a man learns very little of the general 
 affairs of the world while he is at the University ; that is all to be gained after- 
 wards. But with regard to association and the benefits that arise from rubbing 
 one against another, and the competition which results from it, which we look 
 for in public institutions, those are all available at Haileybury. I think the 
 system might be improved if the students did not come there so young. 
 I think no one ought to be sent there under 1 8. 1 think a man ought not to 
 go out to India till he is 21, and I am satisfied that the Government would 
 gain, in geometrical progression, by the advantage which would be derived from 
 young men proceeding at that age above what it would lose by the year which 
 would be deducted from their period of service. One year at that time of life 
 is of the utmost consequence, and if it be a question as to the age of the indi- 
 vidual, it would be far more advantageous to the Government to cut one year 
 off from the service in India and add it to the commencement than to send them 
 out at the s;ime age at which they are now sent out. 
 
 337:2. Mr. T'. Smithr\ Do not you think, on the other hand, that if those 
 young men destined for India were educated at the University of Oxford or 
 "Cambridge, with young men engaged in other jjursuits at home, many of them 
 might become dissatisfied with the prospect of their exile in a foreign country ? 
 — 1 do think so ; 1 began by stating the advantage which I think results from 
 a man going cheerfully to "his business, as a man from Haileybury does ; he 
 says, "I am going to meet those I have already been associated with; 1 shall 
 not be without assistance or support, because I shall have my friends 
 
 about me." 
 
 3., 73. Mr. AJdcaulaj/.] You know the system at Oxford and Cambridge ? — 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3374. Do not you believe that if you sent the young men intended for India 
 to Oxford or Cambridge, every one of those who distinguished himself very 
 highly there, who was likely to be a doubk' first-class at Oxford, or a senior 
 wrangler at Cambridge, and who saw before him a provision for life in a fellow- 
 shij) at Trinity, at Cambridge, or some similar situation at Oxford, would im- 
 mediately throw over the service, and that it would be only the dregs of the 
 young n:en whom vou sent that you would get out to India at last? — 1 do think 
 so ; 1 see the same feeling working daily ; men who are come to a certain time 
 of life say, " 1 wovdd rather worl< and take my chance in my own country than 
 go abroad." The beauty of the present system is, that the mind is trained to 
 this jjarticular object. They look forward to it as the great object, the siimmum 
 honnm of life, instead of taking it only as an alternative. 
 
 337.-,. Mr. V. Smith.] Is not there this advantage at Haileybury, that most of 
 the young men educated there are on an ccpiality as to fortune ; whereas the great 
 danger at Oxford or Cambridge is, that a person of moderate means may be 
 
 led
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEHRITOKIES. 315 
 
 led into great extravagance r — Yes. From mj' knowledge of Haileyl)ury I can ■/• F LeitU, Esq. 
 
 state I hat there is more of supervision exercised there over the individual " 
 
 students than there couhl he at a university. Wo bring into operation the 21 April 1853. 
 office (if the tutor, as ^vell as that of the professor. 
 
 3376. Mr. Mangles.] Would you find at Oxford or Cambridge, as at pre- 
 sent constituted, those means of instruction for young men in law and political 
 economy which are now found at llaileybury? — No, the system must be 
 altered. They ai e not regarded as essentials there. 
 
 3377. The Indian students, therefore, would be so far a separate class, either 
 at Oxford or Candn-idge ? — Assuredl)', if they went thei-e for the purpose of a 
 particular training. Haileybury has not had, I think, its full and fair trial, 
 wlien we have been considering w'hat the benefits arising from the education 
 there are. When a student proceeds to India, it has hitherto been the custom 
 to keep him at the Presidency town. He remains there for a year or two, till 
 he passes in two languages. He lives at the Presidency town, where English is 
 the language of the place, and society is in a veiy artificial state, and where 
 people are living luxuriously on high incomes. In this place he is kept without 
 any instruction in law, so that everything which he has been receiving at 
 Haileybur}' in that dej)ai'tment must, to a great extent, be lost. And not 
 only that, but I think his residence there is morally prejudicial ; he is taught 
 expensive habits. He will proceed to a quiet isolated zillah station far from the 
 metropolis of India ; therefore it must be with regret that he leaves, and it is 
 fortunate if those regrets do not continue v^'ith him. Instead, therefore, of 
 promoting and perfecting the training and education that he has received at 
 Haileybury, such a residence at the Presidency towns throws a difficulty in the 
 way. Then with regard to the native languages, Calcutta is not the place to 
 teach a young man the native languages ; he mav as well be taught them in 
 London, for any advantage to be obtained from communication with the natives, 
 where all speak English ; therefore I would suggest that the same plan should be 
 adopted in the civil service as is adopted with regard to the military servants of 
 the Company. No cadet is allowed to remain in the Presidency town. The 
 Adjutant-general does not know to what corps he will be posted ultiniatelv, but 
 he is immediately attached to some corps in the Mofussil, where he begins his 
 study of languages among the natives, acquiring at the same time that which he 
 could not so well acquire in Calcutta, a knowledge of the customs, and habits, 
 and institutions, of the people, and of his own business ; and I see no diffi- 
 culty in at once attaching a young civil servant to a judge or collector in the 
 Mofussil who will see that he pursues his studies there, and proceeds at the 
 usual time to pass his examination, which a cadet has to do before the district 
 committee wlio are apijointed to examine him. 
 
 337 8. Mr. Ellice.] Are not there great complaints of the effect (jf those 
 dangers and temptations vipon cadets, even during the short time they are now 
 detained in Calcutta ? — That may be well supposed with boys going out there, 
 and left at liberty as they are. Cadets, however, are allowed to remain so short 
 a time, that there could by no means be the same evil effect produced upon 
 them as upon the civil servants. 
 
 337Q. Mr. Macau/aj/.'\ Are not the temptations of a civil servant much 
 greater than those of a cadet, in another wa)^ ; does not he find it much easier 
 to get money lent him .' — No doubt, though that facilit}' is not so great as it 
 was in former years. That jjccuniary assistance, too, may come from the natives : 
 and whatever may be the amount of interest yieldetl, the native will not look 
 to that alone, as that which he must be repaid, but he will look to the position 
 which the civil servant will have eventually. 
 
 3380. Mr. Ellice.] Would not it be desirable, in your opinion, to devise some 
 means by which the great evil arising from the facility of obtaining monev bv 
 young men should be put an end to "r — It would be very difficult ; it might 
 then be made a question of honour. You might apply the law with regard to 
 infants to men grown up, but I do not think it a politic course ; a 'Iietter check 
 would be the domestic check which a master, the Government, has over his 
 servant, rather than to introduce any law which would make such debts legally 
 invalid. Then you would place your servants in this position : they would have 
 an honourable debt which every man of proper feeling would look on as a matter 
 of honour to pay ; and if he did not pay it he would lose his character, while 
 he would gain the money. 
 
 0.1 u. R R 2 3381. Sir
 
 o 
 
 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Lciik, Esq. 3381. Sir T. H. MaddocA-.] Would you consider it aii}^ objection to the 
 
 appointment of a "entlenian to the civil service of India that he had been 
 
 21 April \Sj[>. called to the bar in England? — It would ill become me to say so, and 1 should 
 say, certainly not. 1 consider it an advantage and an honour to belong to the 
 bar, instead of a disqualification. 
 
 3382. If the amalgamated or consolidated court which you have suggested, 
 should be substituted in. the place of the present Supreme Court and the Sudder 
 Court at the Presidencies, there would, of course, be a greater number of gen- 
 tlemen than at present jn-actising as barristers ; would you consider it desirable 
 that some of those gentlemen jn-actising as barristers, should be not only bar- 
 risters-at-law, but also members of the civil service ? — I think it would be an 
 extremel}' good thing, if the service will admit of it ; but I know that the wants 
 and i-equirements of the service are sucli that it would scarcely admit of those 
 who are preparing and prepared for that service, going through an intermediate 
 preparator}^ course of legal practice, knowing how difficult it is to obtain prac- 
 tice even when a man is qualified for it. A man may be very well qualified 
 for deciding i)articular cases in the first instance, and yet not have those 
 qualifications wliich are essential to a successful advocate ; and unless he was 
 emidoyed he would gain no sufficient personal or practical knowledge. There 
 would be this inconvenience also, that he would have an excuse for staying in 
 the Presidencv, where he would be learning nothing, without any benefit arising 
 to the State from his doing so. I know it has been recommended that young^ 
 men should attend at the Sadder Dewanny Adawlut ; but i'rom that it is clear no 
 advantage could accrue to the civil servant, because that is not a court of first 
 instance; there is no <'xamination of witnesses. The only proceeding is reading 
 ])apers. With regard to the Supreme Court, it is a court of first instance, and 
 he might attend there ; but I do think that the temptations and the objections 
 to Calcutta, as the residence of a young man, at such an age, would overcome 
 the ailvantage which might be obtained by any attendance at the court there. 
 They have now- the means of attending court occasionally here, which they do. 
 Th students at Haileybury attend the assizes and sessions at Hertford. That 
 might be carried out uiore beneficially by making it apart of their instruction. 
 They do it through inclination now, but it might be made a part of their study 
 that they should attend, and the professor should direct their attention to the 
 cases w hieh they have heard there, and make them the theme of his lectures. 
 
 3:]'^3- Vou have suggested, that it would be beneficial that young men should 
 rciiiain a year longer in this country than they do at present r — -I think it 
 would be advantageous. 
 
 3384. Are you aware of any inconvenience that would arise from permitting 
 voung men to remain longer than three years as students in England in con- 
 sequence ol' their desire to perfect themselves in a knowledge of law previously 
 to going out ? — I think it ought to be kept in view, that it is most essential 
 that there should be a thorough knowledge of the languages in order that a 
 young man may do his duty in India. After a certain jjeriod of life there is 
 very gresit difficulty in acquiring new languages; there is besides a \)hysical 
 diffivultv when the organs of speech lieeonu' fully fonned and fixed; it becomes 
 less easy every year alter a certain period of life. 
 
 338.';. The object of my question was to learn your opinion as to tlie prac- 
 ticability of giving some of tlu- gentlenu'u who are .sent into the civil service 
 in India a sufficient knowledge of law before they leave this country to enable 
 them, Ijy any means which might be available, to take their place in India as 
 Ijarristcrs r — It would be i)racticable if you ta\ight them technical law. But 
 there is nothing in a name ; when a man has eaten twelve terms at one of the 
 Inns of Court, ami attended lectures, he is entitled, if otherwise respe,ctal)le — that 
 is, if his conduct is not ()l)jeetionabU' — to be admitted at that Inn of Court, and 
 then to be sworn in at Westminster Hall as a l)arrister. 1 have passed through 
 that ordeal; I know the first time I jtut on a wig and gown they did not bring 
 into my head any more knowledge of law than I ])osses>ed before. It is not the 
 ^ fact of a man being called to tlie bar that gives him knowledge, but it is the 
 
 professional cducatiun he has had. We know there are many men called to 
 tlie bar without an\' intention of practising that ])r()fession. There is no 
 gi::irantee when a man is entitled to put on a wig and gown that he is 
 capable as an advocate. The state of things in England will not apply in 
 India;' here a man practises at the bar before the i)ublic, and no man can 
 
 attempt
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TF.RRITOIUES. 317 
 
 attempt to take the duties of a Ijarrister ui)ou him witiioul kuowiiii^ his profes- J- i- Lcith, Esq, 
 
 sion, and that is a sufficient cheek, and a sufficient, jjrotection to the public, [ 
 
 apart from a thorouj^h examination ; but in India, if you only make il a test *' '■^l""'' '^•''3- 
 
 that he shall have been called to the bar, you have no proof that he is fitted for 
 
 any jvidieial ollicc which he may be called on to fill. Then, again, if it is to 
 
 depend up<m education, I say, without mcaniui? to take to myself credit in the 
 
 j)osition of Professor which I liold at IIaileyl)ury as teaching law, that a young 
 
 man may have at Haileybvny all the advitntages of an education in law, apart 
 
 from a technical knowledge of English law, which he does not recpiire, which a 
 
 student of law now possesses who is studying at one of the Inns of Court ; at 
 
 any rate, you may have that, by additional legal assistance ; so that the mere 
 
 fact of being called to the bar does not guarantee a capacity for the position 
 
 which the man is to hold in India. 
 
 338(). Would it be advantageous that diplomas should be granted, either from 
 that college or from any other institution, to gentlemen who have attained a 
 certain degree of ([ualification before the)' leave this country r — I see no 
 objections to diplomas. That seems to be very much a general question : any 
 one will see that there are men of great eminence whom all men would wish to 
 see in the most eminent positions ; anything which was (compatible with a 
 general scheme or plan which would admit such men would be approved of; 
 but 1 think those men are exceptions, and would not be easily induced to bury 
 themselves in remote stations in India. The question is, generally, what is 
 necessary for particular appointments, and I think you may ol^tain from the 
 number of students at Haileybury a great many sufficiently educated men ; you 
 may make the examination more strict at the entrance to Haileyburv which 
 might be a good thing, so as to test the capacity of mind of the young men. 
 You must look at that, however, in reference to the duties which are to be 
 performed ; one man may be more clever in one way than in others; the quality 
 of mind mis:ht be looked at with regard to the duties he has to fulfil in India, 
 and also you might have a severer examination as to his acquirements before 
 he enters Hailejbur}', and only those men might be allowed to come in who 
 passed the test ; and then I am sure that the education they will obtain there 
 is calculated to fit them for the situations they are afterwards to hold better 
 than any other that I am aware of. 
 
 3387. Is it your opinion that any number of men most highly qualified for 
 their attainments in law in this country, on going out to India would be in- 
 duced to enter as i)leaders in this new consolidated court in Calcutta, as soon 
 as they had passed in the native languages, in preference to going to take an 
 appointment in the Mofussil for three or four years, at a salary of 400 rupees 
 a month ; and do you think they might be advantageously employed in that 
 way ? — If you can ensure that they shall be employed as advocates or pleaders 
 then I say certainly, but you cannot secure their employment by the public. 
 The public will only employ those men in whom they have confidence, and who 
 they know will do their work ; therefore it by no means follows that a }oung 
 man coming out in that way will necessarily obtain business. 
 
 3388. Do you think that any of those gentlemen, if they had the option, 
 would take their chance in the court in preference to going into the .Mofussil 
 
 on a salary of 400 rupees a month ? — J know one instance where that did • 
 
 occur ; I have heard a very eminent man, who is no longer alive, Mr. Henry 
 Torrens, say that he wished he had not conu' out in the civil service, but had 
 gone to the bar. That, however, arises from a peculiar character of mind. 
 You might occasionally find an individual of that description, but I should say 
 from my experience, that the generality of men who have the serviei' before 
 them, which, I will say, is a noble service, and one to be greatly desired, would 
 come to a different conclusion. Such men generally, aecjuainted with what are 
 their chances of success at the bar, anil knowing how i)eeuliar are the qualifi- 
 cations of mind and of knowledge which are necessary in order to be a successful 
 advocate, and, on the other hand, looking to the advantages uhicli their own 
 service holds out to them, that it may lead them to the high and important 
 office of legislating for India as a member of Council, that it will in the mean- 
 time fuinish them with adequate means to supi)ort the position and character 
 of gentlemen, and be a means also, if the}- are i)rudeut, of retiring at the end 
 of a certain number of years with a certain independence, J think, in nine cases 
 out of ten, would give the preference to the civil service. 
 
 0.10. R u 3 33S9. It
 
 31 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. F. Leith, Esq. 33'^!)- It would by no mean? follow that you would preclude such a man who 
 
 chose to pi-actise at the bar from promotion m the civil service ; on the con- 
 
 21 April 1853. trary, you might hold out to him the prospect of succeeding to the situation 
 of judge of the court in which he would practise, the only restriction ])eing 
 that you would be confining his hope of promotion to promotion in the 
 judicial branch of the service ? — I think it might be a very good nursery for 
 judges eventiially, but it is a measure Avhich can only be adopted with reference 
 to a very distant period. 
 
 3390. Mr. Elliot.^ Do not you think it is very important that a young man, 
 when he first goes out to India, should have an opportunity of making himself 
 acquainted with the best Indian society ? — I cannot say that for a young man 
 to be introduced into good society can be anything but an advantage ; but it 
 may be purchased at too high a rate. 
 
 330 1 . Looking to the peculiarity of the case of a young man who is going 
 into a part of the country where he will be a perfect stranger to almost ever}^- 
 bodv living there, is not it very important to him that he should have an 
 opportunity, before lie is sent into a banishment of that kind, of making the 
 accjuaintance of the best class of European society in India ? — No doubt it is 
 an advantage ; l)ut I think, at the same time, there are verj' many countervailing 
 evils. If his residence at Calcutta were not of that lengthened duration which 
 it now is, or if, without giving rise to the evils which I have referred to, he 
 could have the means of becoming acquainted with good society, it would be 
 an advantage. 
 
 3302. Is not there a very great difference between the case of a military and 
 a civil servant ; the former is sent out to join a regiment where he will meet 
 ■with plent}' of societv, and with companions with whom he may associate ; 
 whereas the latter is sent to a Mofussil station, where he will meet, probably, 
 with no Europeans, but the magistrate and the doctor, and where he will be 
 left almost entirely to his own resources. Must not the situation, therefore, of 
 a ci^-il servant, who has made no acquaintances in Calcutta, before he goes into 
 the country, with whom he can hold personal intercoui-se, or corres])ond by 
 letter, be an exceedingly deplorable one - — I think, having spent two years in 
 Calcutta, in the midst of gay societ}', his feelings will be much more bitter at 
 having to separate himself from that society when he goes to his station, than 
 they would have been if he had proceeded at once. A young man just leaving 
 college, elated at the thought of being emancipated from control, and witli 
 hopeful anticipations of the future, is usually i)repared to go to his post with 
 alacrity and ))leasure. And, I think, though undoubtedly some advantage 
 might be derived from his introduction into good society, yet a greater amount 
 of injury would be done by his residence in Calcutta ; not only in consequence 
 of what may occur to him there, but by means of the regrets which he would 
 carry with him into th(^ Mofussil, which would embitter his solitude when he 
 got to his post. 
 
 ^■:,[y^. Supposing him to have formed a number of acquaintances in Calcutta, 
 before he leaves for the Mofussil, no doubt he would experience some pain in 
 parting from their societv again ; but will not he, during that portion of his life, 
 have formed many friendships which will be to him a great souice of future 
 • comfort ; whereas, if he goes into the Mofussil at once, is he not altogether cast 
 
 off at once from all society, and from the jjossibility of making any acquaintance, 
 unless he happens to be fortunate enough to be sent to a military station / — 
 I think there are much more imi)ortant and solemn considerations involved in 
 that (juestion, with regard to the efficiency of a pid)lic servant, than could be 
 counterl)alanced by any mere ])ersonal loss which he might sustain in that 
 way. 
 
 33()4. Are not you aware that it has hap])ene(l to some young men to become 
 so desponding and meiantilioly that they liave become almost useless: — I have 
 heard of such cases, but they are very few. One of the advantages of Hailey- 
 bury is, thathavingli is fellow students, and tliose whom he knows, near him, the 
 young man is not that isolated individual wliich a man would be who is taken 
 out of ]\\\ profession here, and sent out at once ; the former has friends all 
 about him, and others with whom he c()rresi)onds by nu'ans of letters ; they 
 ma\- be near the station where he is, or they may be at a distance. I do not 
 thiid\ that the position of a civil servant educated at Haileybury is often that 
 which }(m have described. 
 
 3395- Sir
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 319 
 
 33c}!). Sir T. II. Maddock.'] Arc you awarc^ what is the monthly aUowance of J- F. l^Uh, Esq. 
 
 a uriter in Calcutta? — I have understood that a civil servant out of employ has 
 
 400 rupees. 21 April 1853. 
 
 33()6. It is much less than 300 /. Are you of opinion that a young man could 
 live in Calcutta ujxm that allowance witliout getting into deht .' (generally not, 
 and that is one of the difficulties which \ see in the case of young men; they go 
 out to Calcutta, and must live in a certain position ; it is not only that they neces- 
 sarily must keep uj) a certain position, hut the climate itself requires them to 
 have certain indulgences. They have their liorses, and so on. Tiiev lisit at 
 houses where they see a lavish expenditun^ which they will not sec in the 
 Mofussil, and which may give them a taste for extravagance which I think it is 
 better they should not have. 
 
 3397. Mr. M(tcaulay.~\ You have imagined that tliese young gentlemen 
 remain for two or three years at Calcutta ; the ))eriod fixed is a vear and a half, 
 within which period they are recjuired to pass in two of the native languages. 
 It happens that some of them remain for tiiat time, and perhajjs obtain a little 
 law, whereas the more diligent pass in three or four months ; do not vou think 
 that bei)ig allowed to remain so long in Calcutta encourages idleness, and mu^t 
 have a bafl effect upon the least industrious and least respectable of those young 
 men ? — No doubt it must be so. 
 
 3398. Mr. Hinne.} You were asked a question just now, how far the law in 
 every part of India applicable to Englishmen and natives should be the same ; 
 a petition has been presented from the Armeni;ni inhabitants of Beniral ; in 
 that petition it is stated that, by a solemn contract entered into with them by 
 the East India Company, they were to be considered as Englishmen born, and 
 to have the full enjoyment of all privileges then or thereafter to be granted to 
 them. J3uring the time you were in Calcutta, had you an opportunity of hear- 
 ing or knowing anything of the complaints stated in this petition on that par- 
 ticular point ? — Certainly ; the Armenians ure in a mest anomalous position, 
 and I think very much to be pitied. They are a highly respectable and 
 industrious class of the communit}'. 
 
 3399. The petitioners state that they are now treated in every respect as 
 Hindoos or Mussulmans r — I do not think that is correct ; they are not so. 
 If they had stated this it would have been con-ect : tiie Mahomedan law forms 
 the basis of the criminal law of India, but as it has been regulated and modified 
 by the Regulations of the East India Company, they ai-e subject to that law as 
 Hindoos and ^lahomedans would be ; but it is inviilious to say that that is the 
 Mahomedan law, because all the worse parts of the Mahomedan law, with regard 
 to mutilation and such matters, have been cut out ; therefore it is made more 
 like a Christian law. The position of the Armenians, however, is one which 
 they ought not to be subjected to ; they are entitled to the same advantages as 
 British born subjects, and to have the English law administered to them. 
 
 3400. Mr. Mucaulai/.\ To what law is a Frenchman in the Mofussil subject? 
 — To the same law. 
 
 3401. The case of the Armenian is exactly the same with that of anv Euro- 
 pean, other than a British subject, who goes out to India and settles in the 
 Mofussil ? — Exactly ; the Chinese, the Burmese, the Par.-ees, the Armenians, 
 the Jews, taking them all without classifying them, are all subject to the same 
 criminal law. 
 
 3402. Mr. Hume.'] Your object would be to introduce a hiw which should 
 remove all those anomalies, and put all classes on the same footing: — I think 
 so, certainly. I think there is one vciy important consideration which is, how 
 the punishments are to be apportioned. M ith regard to British-born subjects 
 the gaols, or places of imprisonment, must be very much altered since I was in 
 India, in order that imprisonment could be one of the punishments which could 
 be inflicted. The state of the gaols, though they may be adapted ibr the 
 natives, who do not suffer from the climate, is not such as to render them fit 
 for Europeans. I wish that to be stated, in order that it may be considered in 
 framing any Act which has for its object a criminal jurisdiction which is to 
 embrace British-born subjects as well as others. 
 
 3403. Sir T. H. Maddocli.] Have you visited any gaols in the Mofussil in 
 which there was no accommodation for European prisoners? — 1 am hajjjjy to 
 sa)', with regard to Europ ean prisoners, that they are few, and therefore, pro- 
 
 f^-io. R R 4 bably,
 
 320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKE\ BEFORE THE 
 
 J, F. Leith, Esq. bablv, it is tliat the Compaii}' have not had their attention called to anj- pro- 
 
 vision for them ; it is very much in favour of the state of the European society 
 
 21 April 1853. in the ]Mofussil; but I would say this, that the gaols I have been in were not 
 such as I think a European ought to be placed in, with reference to his 
 health. 
 
 3404. There, is one gaol which probably you have visited, the gaol of AUa- 
 pore : have you ever seen Eui'opeans confined in that gaol ? — At this moment 
 I cannot recall having seen them. 
 
 3405. Are you not aware that there are in that gaol proper arrangements 
 for their confinement : — I dare say it may be so ; it is an excellent gaol, and 
 very great attention is paid to it ; and it is one which has been more adapted, 
 probably, for Europeans, because it is in connexion with Oalcntta. It is just 
 out of the limits of Calcutta, and as a great many Europeans reside in Calcutta 
 and the suburbs more might be brought into that gaol. I was speaking of the 
 Mofussil, where such a preparation has not been made. 
 
 3406. Have you visited the gaols in the North-western Provinces, where 
 the number of European criminals is not so small, as your former answer sup- 
 posed, in consequence of the presence of European troops ? — That is a different 
 matter altogether. The legislation for the military must be quite distinct from 
 that which is applicable to otiier classes of British subjects. My observations 
 referred to those British subjects who were not in the miUtary service of the 
 Company. 
 
 3407. Mr. J. Fitzr/erald.] In reference to the defects existing in the pro- 
 cedure in the Mofussil Courts, would this be an improvement, and tend to 
 remedy those defects : tiiat the initiatory process should state the claim ; the 
 pleadings to be oral before the judge ; the judge to settle the issue thereupon ; 
 the evidence to be vh-i'i voce before the judge, and strictly confined to the issue ; 
 and the appeal to be on the judge's notes of the case, the evidence, and the 
 judgment; would that system be applicable to the Mofussil Courts, and., 
 remove the defects which you have pointed out ? — I take for granted there 
 would be a record of the court. 
 
 3408. The only record after the process would be the judge's notes r — The 
 distinction is very great between the judge's notes and the record of the court. 
 I can see no objection to those being the proceedings, if each of those steps 
 were recorded at the time, so as to be on the record of the court and on the 
 files of the court ; if that were so, as far as the facilities of transacting business 
 go, it would be a very great improvement. If justice can be administered as 
 well, and if you can satisfy the natives that they can have their claims properly 
 stated to the judge, then 1 should see no objection to that course of procedure, 
 which is very much like the course we are now adopting here in the county 
 courts. But one thing must be always kept in view in legislating for India ; 
 it is not only necessary that we satisfy ourselves that justice is administered, 
 but that the natives shall be satisfied too. I think you must have some means 
 of putting to their satisfaction upon the record of the court, that which they 
 think is their claim ; because if the judge is to have it in his power merely 
 to put down what is the claim, when it comes up for appeal the party may say, 
 " (3ne of the most inqjortaiit things which I claimed at tlie time has been 
 omitted." 
 
 340(). If the pleading were at once recorded, and read to the parties, would 
 not that remove the objection you have mentioned? — Tiie judge 1 think miglit 
 be bound to take down all the claim, and the exercise of his judicial functions 
 should begin when the issues are taken. He should take down the claim as the 
 native makes it; there should be no exercise of discretion in that respect, 
 except in the way of cutting down the argument. Then, when tlie statements 
 of the claim and t!ie answer are settled, you miglit eliminate from the statements 
 the issues to be tried. 
 
 3410. Mr. I'. Smit/i.] What tlie judge takes down should be read over to the- 
 parties ? — Yes. 
 
 3411. Mr. /. Fitzgerald.] The appeal should be, in fact, upon the record of 
 what the judge has taken down r — Yes ; but then comes this question : there is 
 not in those courts in the Mofussil what we have here, an oral argument after- 
 wards ; and therefore, miless you provide for that, the native will be shut out 
 from any mode of arguing his case. In consequence of tluit defect, the native 
 
 now
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOllIES. 321 
 
 now resorts in bis written pleadings to the argument which we should use before ./. /.. Lcuh, E><[. 
 
 the iudge at the bearing; if, therefore, you shut him out from that mode of 
 
 arguing bis ease, you must take care to give him an opportunity at the liearing 'i\ April iS.is. 
 of bringing forward his authorities, and of an oral argument wliich the judge 
 must hear. 
 
 Liouc, 25° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baring. 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 Mr. Hardinge. 
 Mr. U. H. Clive. 
 Mr. Baillie. 
 Mr. Hildyard. 
 Mr. J. Fitzgerald. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 
 Sir Charles Wood. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Sir George Grey. 
 Sir .1. \V. Hogg. 
 Sir R. H. Inglis. 
 Sir T.H. Haddock. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Viscount Joceyln. 
 Mr. Labouchere. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq. in the Chair. 
 
 John Farley Leith, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 341 2. Chairman J] ARE you desirous to offer any explanation or correction of /. F. Lcuh, Esq. 
 
 your last answers to the Committee ? — I am. It has been stated generally that I 
 
 assented to wbatwas suggested by one of the Honourable Members respecting an ^j '^P"' i^53- 
 improvement which would take place, if, instead of having written pleadings 
 
 before the court, the parties were brought up to make their statements, which 
 should be taken down at the time. I did think that that would be a great 
 improvement upon the present voluminous system of pleading, and I still think 
 so ; but upon reflection, there are great difficulties in the way of carrying it 
 out in all cases, which I wish to state. One difficulty is the great extent of 
 country over which the population is spread ; and this must be considered with 
 reference to the nature of the jurisdittion which the court exercises. The 
 jurisdiction of the zillah court extends over all the landed property within its 
 jurisdiction ; both parties in such cases may be far distant from the court. 
 Another jurisdiction which the zillah court has, is over the matter in dispute, 
 if the cause of action accrued within its jurisdiction, though the parties may be 
 far apart and distant from the court. A third objection appears to me to be 
 those usages and social customs which have been recognised by the courts 
 hitherto in not requiring natives of rank and position to appear in the court, 
 who think it derogatory to the position they bold. All these matters it would 
 be of great importance to consider well ; otherwise it would be a decided 
 improvement over the present system of pleading, in my opinion, if the plan 
 suggested could be carried out practically in all cases. 
 
 3413. Mr. Elliot.'] Do not you think it would be wise to leave the whole 
 decision of cases of this description to the local authorities ? — I think I stated 
 in my former examination, in taking the liberty of suggesting what I considered 
 an improvement in the constitution of the highest court of appeal in India, that 
 that court would have the means, and be better able, from its knowledge of 
 what the requirements of the country were, and bow the improvement could 
 be carried out, of revising and improving the procedure in the Mofussil courts. 
 That 1 think could be better done from such a source than by legislating for 
 it in England. 
 
 Neil Benjamin Edmonstone Baillie, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 3414. Chairman.'] YOU were for some time in India ; will you state to the A'. B. E. BaUlic, 
 Committee how you were employed there ? — I was about 21 years in India; I ^^1- 
 was an attorney in the Supreme Court of Judieatui-e at Calcutta, and 1 was 
 
 also a vakeel, or pleader, in the Sadder Dewanny Adawlut ; for about 12 
 0.10. S s years
 
 322 MINUTES OF EVIDF.NCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 A . B. E. BaiUie, yoai'rf 1 was a pleader in the Sudder Dewann)^ Adavvlut, and for six years of 
 
 Esq. that time I held the office of Government pleader in that court. I left India 
 
 ■_ — - — in the beginning of 1844; mv knowledge, therefore, is entirely confined to 
 
 25 April 1853. ^j^^^ ^^^j^ pj^^^^ before that time. 
 
 341.5. What are the duties of a vakeel ? — He is the only legal practitioner 
 in the Company's courts ; he has the preparation of the wiitten pleadings, 
 the general conduct of the suit, the getting up of the evidence, and he pleads 
 orally, to some extent, as far as the practice of the courts allows. Oral pleading 
 is very much in the form of question and answer, and hence it is called in the 
 native language by words which signify question and answer. Many judges 
 allow considerable latitude to the vakeel in oral pleading, and in the >Sudder 
 Dewanny A dawlut it was becoming moi'e the practice before I left; but new 
 judges who came from the Mofussil were still inclined to confine the oral pleading 
 to answers to questions put by the court. 
 
 3416. Are the vakeels of much assistance to the judges? — In the Sudder 
 Dewanny A dawlut, to which my personal experience has been confined, I cannot 
 say that they were of much assistance to the judges. Perhaps the best way 
 will be for me to explain how a case is usually tried in that court : there is 
 a large bundle of proceedings before the judge, vvhich is called the record. The 
 vakeels are in attendance, and the judge commences by entering the names 
 of the parties, and the matter in dispute ; after that, he usually prefers to be 
 left to himself; the papers are read to him by his reader. A vakeel is seldom 
 called on, except sometimes to answer a question, till the end of the cause ; 
 when the judge has probably made up his mind ; the vakeels are then called in 
 and asked if they have anything to say, or more usually the judge puts a 
 question, which is answered at more or less length by the vakeel, and replied 
 to by his opponent. On the whole, therefore, I do not think that at that time, 
 though 1 believe the practice has been altered somewhat since, it could be said 
 that the vakeels were of much service to the judges ; indeed, 1 think a case 
 might have been conducted almost in the absence of the vakeels ; the judge 
 was left very much to himself ; he had not only to determine the facts, but 
 to go through a long process of investigation ; and, finally, he had to decide on 
 both fact and law in the best way he could. It seems to me, therefore, that a 
 greater onus is cast upon a judge in India than is usually the case in this 
 country. 
 
 3417. Are the vakeels frequently promoted to the native bench? — The 
 native bench, I believe, has been constituted on principles by which it is 
 necessary for a person going into the native judicial service to commence at 
 the lowest grade. He commences by being a mooiisiff ; he is then advanced 
 to be a sudder ameen, and from a sudder anieen to be a principal sudder 
 ameen ; but I do not think that at present a person is ever admitted into the 
 native judicial service without beginning at the lowest grade, the moonsiff ; the 
 consequence is, that vakeels in good employment, particularly in the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut, will seldom accept the judicial service on that footing, and 
 they are in consequence, generally speaking, excluded from the native judicial 
 hench. I should, perhaps, before leaving the subject of the vakeels, notice 
 what appears to me a great defect in the judicial system ; that is, the inter- 
 position of a professional agent between the suitor and the judge, without taking 
 care that the agent is well qualified. It appears to me that the present system 
 is very defective in that respect ; little or no attention is given to the qualifi- 
 cations of the vakeels. The legislation applicnl to them is also, I think, 
 objectionable. The principle is one almost entirely of coercion, and, generally 
 speaking, they are seldom very well treated ; they are subjected to arbitrarj- 
 fines, frequently for very trivial faults ; and in ])articu!ar ther(> are two circum- 
 stances which, 1 think, have had the effect of keeping down the character of the 
 profession generally. The first is that which I have alluded to, the manner of 
 oral pleading. The vakeel is asked a question ; he is expected to answer it 
 categorically ; it may be difficult for him to do so, witli a due regard to the 
 interests of his client, and the consequence is sometimes that the answer is 
 not a true one. I cannot conceive anything worse than a state of circum- 
 stances which compels the vakeel either to sacrifice the interests of his client, 
 or to prevaricate to the court. I think that has, more than any tiling else, 
 tended to lower the character of the native vakeels, and has confirmed the 
 distrust which exists on the part of the English judges towards them. That, 
 
 I think.
 
 SELECT COMMITIM^E ON INDIAN TKRIII rORIES. 3-2.] 
 
 I think, is one of the great faults in the present system, and it ought to a. ji. l. Hailhe, 
 be cDtirely abolished. The vakeel should be put upon the; same footing as Ksq. 
 
 a barrister here ; he should be eneouragcd to make a speeeh, and never l)e ; 
 
 called on to answer directly with regard to any fact, I am certain that, in ^^ April 18.53. 
 some cases, I had not the (loufidi'uee of my client, from the circumstance 
 that the client did not expect that 1 should conceal a fact if tie had told 
 it to me. The other circumstance which I alluded to as having a bad effect 
 on the character of the vakeels is the manner in " Inch their renmneration was 
 regulated ; it was a commission, which might be high in some cases and very 
 trivial in others: a few pence or, in some cases, it might be as high as 1,000 
 rupees, but in all was without the least reference to the labour of the; vakeel in 
 conducting the cause. Frequently in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, in the 
 heaviest cases, where there was a double record, the fees were the smallest. 
 The worst part of the whole system, however, was this, that there was a most 
 stringent rule, that if a vakeel accepted more, or took less than his fee, he was- 
 hable to be dismissed. 1 believe that that rule was habitually disregarded by 
 the native vakeels ; and that they were, therefore, in the position of being 
 constantly exposed to dismission if detected ; nothing, I think, could be worse 
 for the character of the profession than those two things, one, the existence of 
 a law which it was scarcely possible for the vakeel to obey, and the other that he 
 was subject to interrogatories which he could scarcely answer honesrly, with a 
 due regard to the intei'est of his client. I'Yie first of those evils has been 
 abolished ; he is now no longer obhged to adhere to the old standard ; but 
 I think that that has left its effect upon the character of the profession, and it 
 has tended very much to keep it at a low level. 
 
 j4i8. Did the commission you allude to constitute the whole remuneration 
 of the vakeels ? — There was nothing but that ; I refer to the time when the old 
 regulation was in existence, that a vakeel should take neither more nor less than 
 his regular remuneration ; that was abolished when European pleaders were 
 admitted into the court, and they found it impossible to carry on business with 
 this law existing. When the old rule w;is in force, and vakeels were restricted 
 to the fixed commission, which was deposited in the court, something additional 
 was commonly taken by way of earnest, or a retainer ; and it was so much the 
 practice for this regulation 1 am alluding to to be violated, that a native word, 
 signifying evidence, was generally used to signify a retainer paid to the vakeel. 
 
 3419. Are the vakeels, whose position seems to be similar to that of barristers 
 here, appointed after any prescribed course of study, or on what conditions .' 
 — There were no conditions in my time ; I do not know whether there are any 
 now ; formerly, I think, the vakeels of the lower courts were appointed just as 
 the judges thought proper. No judge, of course, would appoint a vakeel whose 
 character he did not believe to be good, but there was no standard of qualifi- 
 cation that I am aware of. When I was admitted the question arose, whether 
 I was qualified in the native languages. I think that was the first time that a 
 question was raised as to the qualification of a vakeel. It was then settled by 
 one of the judges, to whom 1 was known, certifying that I was sufficiently 
 acquainted with Hindostanee and Persian, which were then the language of the 
 court. 
 
 34JO. Mr. V. Smith.^ What are the interrogatories to which a vakeel would 
 be subjected which he could not truly answer without injury to the interest of 
 his client r — Any question of fact. 
 
 3421 . W hen is he so called on ? — As 1 mentioned, the practice in the Sudder 
 Court was, that the judge in going through the proceedings would sometimes 
 if he came to anything which required explanation, send for the vakeel ; he 
 would then put the question to him ; but usually it was postponed to the end. 
 
 3422. Mr. Elliot.] After English barristers of the Supreme Court practised 
 in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, was that system adhered to '! — Before I left 
 Calcutta few English barristers came into the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut ; the 
 English language was not allowed then. On one or two occasions, in cases in 
 which 1 was engaged, it was, I think, allowed, and the English l)arristers were 
 not exposed to that system of catechising. I suggested' to some of the judges, 
 when 1 first came into the court, how much easier it would be for the court itself 
 if the pleaders were allowed to state the matters at issue in the same manner 
 as in the Queen's Courts. They agreed that it would be so ; but I think thero 
 •was a feeling of distrust on the part of the judges with regard to tlie native 
 
 0.10. s s 2 vakeels,
 
 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 y. B. E. BoiUie, vakeels, and when I consider the effect of that system of catechising the vakeels, 
 l-sq. I am not surprised that a feeUng of distrust should have existed. 
 
 3423. Chairman.] Are j^oii to be understood to say that the vakeels are 
 
 'o April i8,';3. appointed at the arbitrary discretion of the judge, and is their removal equally 
 optional with him ? — I do not think any judge would displace a vakeel without 
 reason ; I do not recollect any instance of its occurring in the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut, and by the law a vakeel cannot be dismissed without sufficient reason. 
 
 3424. He has the power of appointing according to his own judgment ? — He 
 had at that time. According to my recollection, there were no rules upon the 
 subject; the vakeels were appointed entirely by the judge, and in the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut, when some other English gentlemen, who were admitted 
 after me, came into that court, all that was i-eqiiired of them was a knowledge 
 of the Hindostanee languat^e. Some persons of dubious character applied to be 
 made vakeels of the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, but their applications were very 
 properly rejected. With that exception, I do not know that there was any- 
 thing else required. 
 
 3425. You stated that promotion to the native bench proceeded from the 
 lowest moonsiff's court, and that was the i-eason why a vakeel would not 
 accept such a position ; do you think a change in that respect would be 
 desirable ? — I certainly do ; I think there is nothing that will raise the character 
 of the vakeels so much as their looking forward to proau)tion to the native 
 bench ; I look upon the vakeels as the proper source of supply for the native 
 bench ; I think they would be more respected l)y the native ju<iges if the 
 native judge considered, as he would, " the man now before me some day may 
 not only be by my side, but may be placed above me as principal sudder 
 ameen." I think the two offices should be considered branches of the same 
 profession, and knit as closely together as possible ; and whenever I thought 
 a vakeel the best qvialiiied, 1 would promote him at once to the highest seat on 
 the native bench, just after the practice of England. 
 
 3426. Can you suggest any classification of suits by which a portion of them 
 might be summarily disposed of? — I think after what I have said as to the 
 defects in the system with respect to vakeels, the second great defect in the 
 Company's courts is the want of a proper classification of cases : all suits run 
 the same course, even the most trivial ; there are a plaint, an answer, a I'eply, 
 and a rejoinder, a regular record of all the evidence, an appeal, and possibly a 
 special appeal. I cannot conceive anything more ridiculous than such a 
 system, considering that there are a very great many cases the matter in 
 dispute in which is really not above a few rupees. I am told that almost all the 
 I'-ases that come before the moonsiffs (I do not know the fact from my own per- 
 sonal experience) are cases merely of debt. Now, nothing is more simple than the 
 <lecision of a case of debt ; small debts are everywhere decided summarily ; and 
 all small-debt cases might, 1 think, be at once separated from the jurisdiction 
 of the moonsiffs, and set aside for summary decision without appeal. I think 
 in that way you might soon get rid of almost all the cases now within the juris- 
 diction of the moonsitt', and after that was done, and the moonsiff's cases reduced 
 to nothing but mere land cases, as to which there is always some difficulty, the 
 moonsiff's jurisdiction might be abolished. 
 
 3427. Do you think that in any cases such summary jurisdiction might be 
 committed to the junior civil servants ? — That is just the way in which I would 
 dispose of them. Those cases are very easy of decision, and require no 
 knowledge of law, and not nmch experience of any kind to decide them 
 correctly ; we have a great many such cases decided at once in Calcutta by men 
 appointed, without going through anything like tlie education of Haileybury, 
 and I iiavc never known any complaint that those cases were not propei'ly 
 <lecided. It seems to mo, therefore, after that precedent, that all those cases 
 might l)e fiirly set ap.irt for decision by the young civilians. All that is 
 required in regard to such cases is anhom'st judge, and that is the difficulty at 
 present. No ])erson, I believe, has proposed to leave them for decision to the 
 moonsiffs without a])p('al ; l)ut all that is required l)eing honesty in the judge, 
 the cases being simple in themselves, they are well suited, I think, to the young 
 civilians; and in r.dditionto that, it would afford the means of employing them, 
 which is at present a very considerable desideratum. 
 
 342S. What would you do with the remainder of the cases? — With regard 
 to the remainder of the cases, I think almost all the cases, as far as I have 
 
 heard.
 
 SELECT COMMHTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 325 
 
 lieard, Avithin the moonsiffs jurisdiction, might be taken from him. There X. B. F.. I 
 would then remain only cases relating to hind, and I think those cascts should be I-'*'!- 
 
 transferred to the sudder ameen, and the nioonsiff' s jurisdiction entirely ~ 
 
 aI)olished. That would be a great advantage in itself. The moonsiff" s juris- *^ -^l'"' 
 •diction would be no longer necessary, I believe, beciiuse if the greater part of 
 thosi' cases were sumuiarih- disposed of, there would be very little for him to ilo. 
 But I think, on another gnnnul, the abolition of petty jurisdictions is a great 
 advantage ; there is not only the \H'tty jvulge, who it is well known is of all 
 judges the most op.ento suspicion, i)ut there are petty officers, who are generally 
 suspected of bein;; corrupt, and petty vakeels, with whom many of the suits 
 commence, and who are therefore in the most important position in regard to 
 the suit. I think, therefore, it would be of great advantage in every way to get 
 rid of the Jurisdiction of the moonsiffs. In some instances I observed, before 
 I left India, what I thought a tendency to the aboUtion of the sudder ameen's 
 jurisdiction. 1 think in some instances the sudder ameen's office was left 
 vacant. It might have been perhaps an accident, but I thought the tendency 
 was rather that way, and that the result woidd be, or might b(>, to lea\-e onh" 
 two judges, the moonsiff and the principal sudder ameen. My opinion i.^ that 
 it would be much better to leave the sudder ameen and the principal sudder 
 anieen, and that there should be no inferior judge : that ycni should have no 
 judge of so low a grade, or at .so low a salary, as the moonsiff. 
 
 3429. Would it be desirable to examine parties in person 1 — In all those 
 summary cases, I think, as a general rule, the parties ought to be examined in 
 person, both the plaintiff' and the defendant. That is the practice, or at least 
 it was the practice in the court of requests in Calcutta. I think, possibly, it is 
 liable to some abuse : a poor man might summon a rich man, in the hope that 
 the i-ich defendant would not appear, and that he would rather pay than do so; 
 still I think the general principle ought to be, that the parties should appear 
 in person in summary cases; but I would leave a discretion to the judge. 1 
 would do so, not only for the reason I have stated, but because I believe that it 
 was the old law of the country ; it was not the practice under the jSlahomedan 
 Jaw always to require the appearance of a person in high station. In regard to 
 summary cases, the examination of the parties should, I think, be the general 
 rule ; with respect to other cases, what are called regular, I would adopt a 
 ■different plan. At present the practice is, as I have mentioned, for the plaintiff 
 to commence with a plaint, telling a long story in his own way ; it is answered 
 by the defendant in a similar manner, and then there is a reply and a rejoinder 
 before the stage at which the parties could be regularly examined as witnesses. 
 That examination, therefore, would take place after the parties might have 
 irretrievably committed themselves to a string of falsehoods. To examine them 
 under those circumstances, would not, I think, be fair ; it would be of no use ; 
 they would come up only to confirm what they had already stated in their plead- 
 ings. The best way, 1 think, is that which was adopted by the Mahomedans, 
 and is the plan which has been alluded to by an honourable gentleman present, 
 in a question put to the last witness ; it is that of examining the jjlaintitf in the 
 tirst instance ; the plaintiff, I think, after he has put in his plaint, ought to be 
 examined. The judge should then determine the points to which the defendant 
 is to be called on to answer, and if he did not answer categorically to the points 
 in issue by his vakeel, I would give the judge a power of summoning him in 
 person ; but in regular cases, 1 think, the general rule ought to be, with regartl 
 to the defendant, that he should not be sununoned to appear in person unless 
 the judge thought it necessary to examine him. I think, how-ever, that the 
 parties should not be examined without some alteration of the present practice 
 lu regard to written pleadings. 
 
 .S430- Is your opinion favourable to the general introduction of juries in 
 India:-'— I think juries would not be applicable to a great many cases which 
 occur in India. 1 should perhaps make myself intelligible to uiost piople, 
 when I say that the cases which occur in India are very generally cases similar 
 to tliose in our courts of equity, in which it is frequent!}- diffieult to rai^e an 
 issue which can be sent to a jury ; it would be exceedingly dilficult for a judge 
 in India, in many cases, to raise an issue to send to a jury, and reserve the 
 remainder of the case for his own decision. It appears to me that he would 
 have to abdicate his functions entirely, and leave tlie decision upon the whole 
 case, fact and law, to the jury, which I do not think would be desirable. 
 
 0.10. s s 3 Secondly,
 
 320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 B. E. liiiiHk, Secondly, I think that a jury in this country is, perhaps, of the most us(? in 
 
 ^2! determining the degree of credibility due to witnesses. I do not think in that 
 
 April 1853. ^^y there would be much occasion for a jury in India: for I am sorry to say, 
 witli respect to almost all the oral evidence in a case, it requires no discrimina- 
 tion to distinguish between it ; it is, generally speaking, plainly and palpably 
 false. To express in the strongest way my own opinion on the subject, I may 
 state that I was a pleader in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut for 12 yeai'S; for a 
 good many of those years I had a very large business ; I was engaged in most 
 of the principal cases, but I scarcely recollect an instance when 1 thought it 
 ■worth while to comment upon the testimony of the witnesses ; 1 looked to the 
 plaint and to the answer ; I looked to errors in the decree ; I looked to every- 
 thing, in short, except the oral evidence, and my practice in that respect 
 was quite justified by the feelii.g of the judges ; for scarcely a decree is passed 
 in India in which it is not stated, as for the witnesses, those of each party 
 support his side of the case. Those words occur so frequently in the decrees 
 I have had before me, that I used to say they might be stereotyped by the 
 judge for the purpose of putting into his decree. I believe, in saying this, 1 
 am not in the least exaggerating what the real fact was with regard to the gene- 
 ral character of the testimony of witnesses, and therefore, so far I think a jury 
 would be of very little use. 
 
 3431. In the case of oral testimony, would not cross-examination elicit the 
 truth? — Cross-examination only makes that apparent which is sufficiently 
 apparent already, the falsehood of the witness ; that is all that is discovered by 
 cross-examination. With respect to juries, it is also very apparent that you 
 could not often get a jury who would be qualified for the task ; it would be a 
 mere abdication of the functions of the judge ; and I think it is much better to 
 leave upon the judge the moral responsibility of deciding fact and law when 
 they are so much mixed up together. Further, you could not transplant the 
 jury system as it exists in England to India. The jury system in England does 
 not consist simply of a jury, but it is a jury under the guidance of a most 
 intelligent judge, having all the facts examined before them by most intel- 
 ligent counsel. That you cannot have in India. All parties in India say it is 
 necessary for the judge, if he wishes to get at the opinion of the jury, to begin 
 by keeping his own carefully concealed. For these reasons, it seems to me that 
 no dependence can be placed upon the introduction of juries as a means of any 
 material reform in the present state of the judicial system. 
 
 3432. Is there any obstacle to ajjpeals ? — One of the great obstacles is the 
 stamp. I think the ad valorem stamp ought not to be repeated in appeals. 
 My reason is this, that I think appeals form the only means we have of 
 ascertaining whether the judicial system works well at all. It must be recol- 
 lected that all that is done is under a mask ; it is concealed under a foreign 
 language, away from the scrutiny of those who can best criticise it, that is the 
 English ])u]ilic ; the only way you have, therefore, of knowing whether the 
 system works well at all, is testing it by the satisfaction of the parties in each 
 case, and you cannot apply that test to it so long as there is any obstacle to 
 appeals. I would therefore, for that reason, as well as for others, abolish the 
 ad valorem stamp upon appeals. Besides, it is hard to a party that, if for any 
 reason arising from the deficiency of the judge, the question is not rightly 
 decided in the first instance, he should, without any fault of his, be called on 
 for a repetition of the stamp. 
 
 3433. In cases to which the Hindoo and the Mahomedan laws are ai)pli- 
 cablo, how are those laws exj)ounded?^ — They are expounded by persons called 
 law officers ; the law officer of the Hindoo law is called the pundit ; the law 
 officer of the Mahomedan law is properly called the moofti ; but there used to 
 be two Mahomedan law officers in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut : the highest 
 of those was called the kazee-ool-koozzat, and the other the moofti; the office 
 of the moofti lias been abolished ; the kazee-ool-koozzat is now the only Maho- 
 medan law officer. Whenever a (piestion of Hindoo ov Mahomedan law arises, 
 it is submitted to one of those law officers; 1 think that a great defect. It is 
 very generally sus[)ected Ijy the natives, and I am afraid with too much justice, 
 that the Hindoo law officer, in particular, is seldom honest. With regard to 
 the Mahomedan law officer, I think public opinion is in his favour. Further, 
 I believe there are many cases which occur both of Hindoo and Mahomedan law, 
 ■where the real law of the case is not sufficiently elicited for want of sufficient 
 
 knowledge
 
 SELECT COMMIT'IEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 327 
 
 knowledfje on the part of the judge in putting his questions. I thuik tli< icfore A', 
 the judge should now be required to exj)ound the law for himself. 1 believe the 
 Hindoo law, genern.lly, so far as it is required in the eourts, is very well 
 useiTtained by the authorities on the subjeet. and by the deeisions of the courts ; 
 I think, therefore, the judges, particularly the English judges, should now be 
 required in all eases to determine the law for themselves. That would have 
 another ijcnefieial effect, that it would make them learn the law. With regard 
 to the Mahomedan law, 1 think the same observation also applies. That law 
 is well asecTtained, and I think there is now enough of it to be; found in the 
 I'nghsh language upon those subjects to enable a judge to admiuister it for 
 himself. 
 
 ■543-!. \^"(nild you think it advisable to make any attempt to codify so nnu^h 
 of those laws as the eourts of justice are required to administer .' — 1 think, in 
 the first place, it is unnecessary. It appears to me that so much as the courts 
 of justice are required by law to adniinister, is very well defined in known 
 Ijooks and by the deeisions of the courts, and 1 think it would have a tendency 
 to perplex if an attempt were made to select from those books a part of 
 the law to codify, and reject everything else. ^Vhat you selected in that 
 way could liardly be called Hindoo law"; it would be contrasted with tlie 
 original authorities, and if it were found to be at all different from those autho- 
 rities I think the position would be a very i)erplexing one, not only for the 
 judge, but also for the Legislature. Further, I think, with regard to those 
 lavvs, that they are founded on something more than human authority, in the 
 opinion of the natives, and any attempt to codif}* them would be the introduc- 
 tion of a new principle. I may, in confirmation of what I am saying as to tlie 
 wisdom of refraining from interference with those laws in that way, allude to 
 the example of Aurungzebe, who, when he made a digest of the Mahomedan 
 law, did not pretend to promulgate it as a law of his own. All those parts of 
 the Mahomedan law which he selected are no more law than they were before, 
 and such as he omitted are still as much law as they were before ; he never 
 attempted to codify, though he digested, and i think his example a very good 
 one for the British Legislature to follow. 
 
 3435. How are the eases disposed of to which those laws do not apply- — 
 By equity and good conscience, is the term used ; but the truth is, the decision 
 is left entirely discretionary with the judge. 
 
 3436. Is there much practical difficulty in disposing of those cases, and does 
 the want of a positive law lead to any, and what bad effects ? — 1 think there is a 
 great deal of practical difficulty ; 1 think many cases occur in those courts 
 which it is really impossible to determine justly without some previous law, 
 and unless a law is made for those purposes, that difficulty will always exist ; 
 I think, further, that there are certain practical inconveniences which arise 
 from the present want of law. I believe it leads to a great deal of litigation ; 
 I would ascribe the supposed litigiousness of the natives, in a great measure, 
 to it. It is very difficult for a man to say, frequently, whether he has any right 
 or not ; that arises from the want of law, and, I believe, the consequence has 
 been that a great many suits are brought into the Company's courts which 
 would otherwise never have been lirought there at all. My reason for thinking 
 so is this : I believe, from the best information I have on the subject, that the 
 plaintiff fails in a great many cases. I do not see how that could well occur, 
 except from a defect in the law ; because, if the law were well ascertained, the 
 ))laintiff would not go to law. I believe that in India the i)laintiff fails, so far 
 as I can judge, in more cases than in almost any other country ; I have not 
 seen any general statistics on the subject, but from my own retainer books, out 
 of 100 cases which I have taken in order as they stand, the plaintiff failed in 49, 
 he succeeded only in 31, and the remaining 20 cases were returned for re- 
 investigation. It appears to me, therefore, that a great amount of litigation 
 is produced by that means. I know of no cause which is adequate to the 
 effect, but the want of positive law ; men are perplexed ; tiiey do not know 
 what their rights are, and in such cases it is very difficult for them to refrain 
 from going to law. I had an Armenian client (and the Armenians have no 
 law) who was in every ease, eitlier as an original party or a claimant, which 
 came up from a particular part of the country. On inquiring into the reason, 
 I was told that his reason was this, that he did not know what might come of 
 it, and he made it a rule to put in a petition of claim in ever}- ease in which 
 
 0.10. s s 4 Armenians
 
 o 
 
 2S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 B. /i. BaiUic, Armenians were engaged. I am quite s-atisfied tliat even an honest pleader, 
 Esq. -who wished to give the best advice in liis jiower, would be very frequently 
 
 perplexed, and hardly able to say to a client, " Do not go to law." It appears 
 
 '> ''^l''' '^53- to me that that is one of the greatest evils ; it throws a great deal of useless 
 business on the courts. If 1 take the cases appealed as a test of the cases in 
 general, it would appear that almost half of the cases whicli are brought into 
 the Company's courts ought not to have come there at all, because the plaintiff' 
 fails in them. I do not say that that is true of all the cases : I am merely 
 saying that it will be found true, probably, of those cases which are of great 
 magnitude, and are appealed ; but, in addition to that, it is not only tliat a 
 great many cases are broughr into court which would not be brouglit at all, but 
 in many cases which ought to be brought, in which the party may have some 
 right, it'is exceedingly difficult for him to determine what is his actual right ; 
 the consequence is that he brings a suit, but he brings it wrongly, and the 
 error may not be discovered till the case comes into the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut, the court of the last resort, where it is found that he has not brought 
 the suit in the proper manner, and therefore he is nonsuited. I cannot conceive 
 that that should arise from any other cause than a defect in the law. 1 believe 
 also it is that which has produced another fact which I observed very frequently 
 in the course of my practice in the Siukler Dewanny Adawlut, namely, a great 
 diversity of opinion on the part of the judges. It was very dilficult for two of 
 them to agree in many cases ; the disagreement was frequently upon the facts, 
 but there were a great many cases in which they disagreed upon what may be 
 termed the law. A party would bring a suit ; the judge would consider that 
 he might have some right in the case, but not in that particular form in which 
 he brought it forward, and he would nonsuit him. Where several of the judges 
 Avere of opinion that a paity should be nonsuited, they sometimes came to 
 that opinion on different grounds. I think that cannot be assigned to any 
 other cause than a want of law. 1 may mention a case which occurred in my 
 practice in which there were eight different opinions given by judges. It was a 
 case arising out of a sale : the question was a warranty ; according to the law 
 which existed in that country for a long time, the INIahomedan law, warranty 
 is implied in almost all sales ; according to the English law in general there is 
 very seldom warranty. This was a case of warranty, which occurred in the 
 North-western Provinces ; live judges gave their opinions upon the case, all 
 differing. Two of the judges were of opinion tliat the party might have some 
 right, but that he had it not in that particular form in which he brought his 
 action. They were therefore of opinion that he should be nonsuited, but they 
 came to this opinion on different grounds. '1 he case then came into the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut at Calcutta for a final decision; three judges sat upon it, and 
 out of those three judges again, there was one who considered that the party 
 ought to be nonsuited, and that also upon a different ground. It appears to me, 
 therefore, that in this case, where there were eight opinions, all of intelligent 
 men, they were embarrassed solely by the real difficulties of the case, wliich arose 
 from the fact that there was no law applicable to it. I conceive therefore that 
 that is a second ])ractical inconvenience whicli arises from the want of law. 
 But there is another also; the judge has to determine the issues. If the judge 
 has a vague notion of the rights of the i)arties, and his notion is ver}' frequently 
 likely to be vague if the law is not defined, he will settle the issues wrong, and 
 evidence will be given as to points on which it was not required ; the conse- 
 quence will be that the case, after it has come U}) to the court of last resort, 
 will be returned tor re-investigation. Now, in those three different ways ; first, 
 that suits are brouglit which never ought to be lirought at all : secondly, that suits 
 are brought in a form in which the judge cannot jjroperly decide tlsem, and he is 
 therefore obliged to nonsuit the parties ; and, thirdly, that frequently issues are 
 raised which are not the proper issues of the case, and the case is returned for 
 re-investigation, I think there is a great amount of unnecessary business cast 
 upon the courts, and 1 can ascribe that to nothing else th;ui the want of law. 
 
 3437- F)o you think it would be just to apply the iMiglish law to the solution 
 of such cases ? — The inhabitants of India are divided into two great classes, the 
 Mahomedans and the Hindoos. I have observed, in examining the reports of 
 cases decided in the Sudiier Dewanny Adawlut, that the suits very generally arise 
 between two individuals of tiie same class. Most of the suits are between two or 
 more Hindoos or between two or more Mahomedans, and there is a very small 
 
 number
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEIIIUTOIUES. 329 
 
 iiumbor of suits that may be callcMl niiscellanooup, in which there are parties of A'. B. A". Baulk, 
 different rehii;i()ns. The Mahoniedaiis, ! think, are universally, at least very ^"l- 
 
 generally, in the practice of regulating their dealings by tlieir own law, so 
 
 much so, that though by the regulations of the Government their own law is "^^ ■^^"' '^^•*' 
 api)lieal)le only to cases of succession, inheiitauee, marriage, an.d religious usa"-es, 
 the judges have found it necessary to ap))ly their law to almost every Maho 
 medan ease which comes before them. The Mahomedan law is constructed 
 on i)rineii)les very diffenMit in some res])ects from the English law. I think, 
 therefore, with regard to all thosc^ cases of Mahomedans it would be exceed- 
 ingly unjust to apply the English law. The courts now decide them accord- 
 ing to equity and good conscience, and that obliges them hi a manner, to 
 decide them according to the law of the parties. With regard to Hindoo cases, 
 again, I think the Hindoos also have some notions of their own in carrying 
 on their dealings. I tliink it is almost im))ossible for men to contract, even 
 in a simple case of sale, without having some general notion of the rights 
 they are acquiring by the contract and the liabilities they are incurring. 1 tliink 
 peculiar notions do exist, generally speaking, among the Hindoos as well as 
 among the Mahomedans, and 1 think, farther, that those notions are very 
 generally derived from the same source, the Mahomedan law, and that it would 
 be much more agreeable to equity and good conscience to decide a case arising 
 between two Hindoos according to the Mahomedan law, vvhich is better 
 adapted to the state of society in which they are at present, than the English 
 law, a law which is derived, we know, chiefly from the customs of a people 
 at a much more advanced stage of society. Particularly with regard to contracts 
 of sale, it seems to me that these two laws are constructed with reference to 
 two different principles. The Mahomedan law of sale is constructed with refer- 
 ence to an implied warranty ; the English law is constructed, as is well known, 
 generally speaking, upon the principle of cancat emptiir. Now, if a case of 
 sale should occur between parties having the Mahomedan notion of the con- 
 tract, where, the man who was seUing knew that by law a warranty was implied, 
 and the man with whom he was dealing that the thing he wa3 buying was 
 warranted, it would be exceedingly unjust to attempt to solve such a case by 
 the rules of the English law. 
 
 ;^437*. What remedy would you propose for the defects in the law to which 
 you liave referred : — The only remedy that appears to me to be at all appli- 
 cable to the case, is a remedy which, with great submission, I think ought to 
 have been applied to it many years ago, and that is, a positive law. I 
 believe, from my own practice, that cases frequently occur in those courts 
 which no wit of man could determine justly without some positive previous 
 rule. That case of warranty which I have mentioned is a very strong (uie, in 
 which it is impossible to sa}' on which side the justice lies. I think, therefore, 
 the only way in which those cases could be met is b)^ making a law, and I 
 think that law ought to be founded, as far as possible, upon wliat might be 
 ascertained to be the existing notions of the people upon those subjects ; for 
 this reason, that if you apply a law to them which they do not understand, they 
 will not regulate their dealings by your law ; they will go on regulating their 
 dealings by their own laws, or their own notions of what is just and ])roper, 
 and when those dealings come up before a judge to be decided on, according 
 to the only law which he Ciin ajiply, he will find, in ajiplying that law, he is 
 obliged to commit injustice, for he must introduce something which the people 
 had not in their ideas when they were contracting. It seems to me that such 
 cases ought always to be determined according to tlie notions of the parties, 
 for that is the law of the place. The notions of the parties should be taken 
 into view, and should be the basis upon which any law is founded. My idea 
 is, that, to a great extent, the MalionuHlan law is a very fair criterion of what 
 the notions of the natives of India are, generally s|)eaking, on the subject of 
 contracts ; it was their lav; for 600 or /OO years. It is scarcely possible that a 
 law could have been in existence so many years and not have made some 
 impression upon the subjects of the country. My idea further is, in comparing 
 the little that remains of the Hindoo law with the Mahomedan law, that there 
 is a singular coincidence in some respects in regard to contracts of sale. 
 There is very little in the Hindoo law upon the subject, but it is very curious 
 that that Uttle has in it a peculiarity of the Mahomedan law ; that peculiaritj' 
 is the locHs penitenticE which is sometimes given to parties, and seems adapted to 
 
 0.10. T T an
 
 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 if, B. E. BaillU, an early stage of society. I think it is very likely that the IMahomedan law 
 '''^' may be better adapted to people in the stage of society in which the natives 
 
 J April iS-s'^ ^^ India now are, than a law such as the law of England. I think, therefore, 
 that any law which should now be made ought to be founded in some 
 measure upon the Mahomedan law. I would not wholly reject the English law, 
 for it contains a vast deal of what is valuable ; but out of those two systems, 
 the Mahomedan law and the English law, any new system of law for India 
 should be made. 
 
 3438. Sir 7'. H. MaddockJ] You limit that observation to the law of con- 
 tracts, do not you ? — Yes ; for this reason : 1 should never, as a general prin- 
 ciple, make a law bevond the necessities of the people ; my idea is, that there 
 is a great deal in the English law which is not required for the state of society 
 in India ; all that is wanted is a law of contracts. 
 
 3439. Chairman.^ Is it your opinion that a code which might appear excel- 
 lent to Enghsh judges might be inapplicable to India?— That is my opinion. 
 
 3440. Would it not require a permanent legislature in India to meet the 
 wants of the people and to change the laws, as circumstances might justify ? — 
 It would require a permanent legislatui'e, certainly, to carry on what is called 
 the current legislation of the country ; but I think if the law were made in the 
 first instance it would require very little amendment for a long time, and the 
 law might be constructed on principles sufficiently large to admit of its exten- 
 sion with the changes of society. It is quite evident that a great deal of the 
 law of England must be inapplicable ; there is, for instance, the law merchant 
 and the law of bills of exchange ; I should think that at present it would be 
 very unjust to apply the law of bills of exchange to hoondies, as the native 
 bills of exchange are called ; and yet it is the practice, to a great extent, in 
 Calcutta, to treat them as bills of exchange are treated ; that is, they are 
 protested, and the same rules applied to them as would be applied to bills of 
 exchange. If a case occurred in the Company's courts where it was attempted 
 to throw off responsibility for want of notice, it would be very unjust to apply 
 such a law to the dealings of the people of India ; the question ought to be 
 determined by the fact whether any injury was done to the party or not. 
 
 3441. Do you think that natives might be appointed to the zillah judge- 
 ships ? — That is a very large question ; it involves a question of intellectual 
 qualification, and also of moral qualification. I think intellectually, so far as I 
 could judge before ! left India, there were a great many decisions of native judges 
 which indicated a very considerable capacity for dealing with judicial subjects. 
 I think, upon the whole, at that time, they were not equal on the average to 
 the decisions of the English judges. At the same time, when they came up 
 on special appeal, it happened in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut the native 
 judgment was frequently confirmed and the English judgment was reversed. 
 [ do not think, however, that that is any fair criterion of the soiuidness of the 
 two judgments, because a case which came first by special appeal into the 
 Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, was admitted only upon the existence of some fault 
 upon the face of the decree itself. That fault was likely afterwards to be dis- 
 covered when the case came on for trial, and the consequence might be that 
 the judgment would be reversed only on account of that fault. The cases 
 were therefore selected cases, and not cases .from which any fair inference 
 coidd be drawn. I think, upon the whole, at that time the judgments of the 
 English judges were perhaps better than those of the native judges. Still, 
 however, the judgments of the native judges were good, ^^'ith reference to 
 the large amount of questions, which are now open questions, for which there 
 is no law at all, I think it would hardly be right to appoint native judges to 
 the zillali judgeships : but after a law has been made to include all those eases, 
 and there is no longer any discretion left to the judge, 1 think, that so far as the 
 intellectual qualification of the native is concerned, he might be made a zillah 
 judjie. But then there would still remain the question of trust. Upon that 
 point I believe there is still a very considerable amount of suspicion on the 
 part of the natives themselves. I think they are generally of opinion that 
 their countrymen can hardly be trusted with a decision in the last resort ; and 
 though, s))eaking of my own practice, I cannot say that I ever Ibiuid any 
 decision of a native judge which was objected to on the ground of corruption, 
 vet still that feelinir existed so strouirlv, and I am inclined to think that it 
 still exists so strongly, that it would not be expedient upon that other ground, 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 331 
 
 the moral stvotiikI to appoint natives to the situation of zillali jndt^es, but tliat n. b. E. BaHU* 
 they reciuire, and will for sonic time to come, require to be kept under superin- Bnj. 
 
 tendence. — _-_^_ 
 
 344.2. You think they would not inspire confidence in the natives ? — I think ^^ ^P""" ''53' 
 not )-et; though I hope ami believe tlie time for it will come, and more parti- 
 cularly after a law has been introduced such as I have mention'-d. I must 
 notici' on(^ remarka])le feature of the native character ; if vou give them 
 a law, there is no people who will more rigidly observe it. I mn\ mention 
 a case in point, which occurred frequently in my own practice ; I have said 
 that the issues are usuall}' determined liy the judge. That is under a Reo-ula- 
 tion dating as fur back as the year 1811, by which the judge was required to 
 settle the issues after making inquiry of the parties, and after reading- the 
 pleadings. That regidatioii was very generally neglected by the English judo-es 
 and it was very seldom that the issues were regularly taken. I have understood 
 since I left India that that Regulation is uniformly acted on by the native 
 judges ; so much so, that they have invented a native name for that proceeding-, 
 which I do not recollect at this moment, but I am told they invariably act 
 according to that Regulation. And I think, therefore, if the native have a law 
 he is very likely to act rigidly according to it, and he might then be veiy fairly 
 left to decide the most important cases without being under supervision. 
 
 3443. What should you say to the plan of introducing the Enghsh lano-ua^-e 
 into the zillah courts, and making its use imperative ? — With regard to the 
 use of the English language in the zillah courts, I think in such a country as 
 India, where there is such a diversity of languages, the best principle is to adopt 
 the language which is most known to the people at large, and make that the 
 language of the courts in the zillahs, and the language of the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut, that is so far as the proceedings of the court are concerned. I would 
 subordinate to that principle the judge and the pleaders in all cases ; I should 
 require every judge and every pleader, in all the courts in India, to know the 
 language of the court, and that language ought certainly to be, in the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut, Hindostanee. In Bengal, it would be Bengalee perhaps, 
 because that is the vernacular. With regard to the pleadings, again, I think 
 all languages which are spoken by a sufficiently important class of the people, 
 and are understood by the judge, ought to be put on the same footino- ; the 
 Persian, for instance, as the written language of Mahomedans, I would put jxtri 
 passK with Bengalee in Bengal. Upon the same principle, I think the Eno-Hsh 
 language ought to be now admitted, just as the vernaculars of the country. 
 I say it ought; to be admitted, but not, certainly, compulsorily introduced, for 
 I think that would be unfair ; I think we ought to avoid everything like par- 
 tiality in favour of our language, or any of our institutions ; but 1 think it 
 might be admitted />rt/7" passn in every case where there is a judge who under- 
 stands it: and, therefore, in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, in the zillah courts 
 and in the proceedings of the collectors, in fact, everywhere where there is an 
 EngHshman presiding, I think the English language should be permitted to be 
 used on the same footing as the vernacular of the country ; but where\er there 
 is a native judge who does not understand English, the English language should 
 be still excluded as it is at present. 
 
 3444. \ou think it should be optional with the parties interested in the 
 cause to ask that the trial should take place either in the English or the native 
 language r — Yes. I will mention what is the case now in Bengal : the lano-uaoe 
 of the courts in Bengal is Bengalee ; the Mahomedans are very much in tiie 
 habit of still using the Persian language as their language of writing; the 
 Persian language is, in fact, the written vernacular language of the Mahomedans. 
 That was objected to by a judije at Dacca. The question was brought by me 
 to the attention of the Sudder Court : I a])pli(>d that the Persian should be 
 admitted with Bengalee, and so it was determined by tlie court. It strikes me 
 therefore that, on the same footing as the Persian is now admitted in all the 
 courts where there is a judge who understands it, the English language ought 
 to be admitted to be used too; but it should l)e left to the parties to take 
 wdiichever language they pleased. 
 
 3445. Do you think it would be expedient to appoint English barristers to the 
 office of judges in the Company's courts ? — It appears to me that that measure 
 is exposed to very many objections : in the tirst. place, I do not think English 
 barristers would be very well qualified ; it would be very hard work for them 
 
 0.10, T T 2 to
 
 332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 If. B. E. Baiilie, to learn the languages, and even when they had done so, they would have still 
 
 Esq. a great deal to learn as to the manners of the people : English barristers would 
 
 ■ bring with them certain qualifications ; they would bring a knowledge of the 
 
 *S P" 1 53- English law, and an acquaintance with judicial business, and also some pecu- 
 liar notions on the subject of evidence ; I think all those peculiar notions on 
 the subject of evidence would be a positive disqualification. Such a barrister 
 would very soon find that he could not pi'oceed at all, and he must either throw 
 away his notions of evidence, and decide in the teeth of the evidence very 
 frequently, or he could not decide at all. I think it Avould be a long time before 
 he could bring himself to that alternative, and therefore he would be a very 
 unfit person. Secondly, 1 think, from his familiarity with the English law, he 
 would be constantly applying it. He would fancy there was no difficulty in the 
 cases which came before him ; he would not understand the ordinary national 
 peculiarities of the natives ; he would know nothing of the peculiar ideas under 
 which a contract originated, and he would api)ly that very definite rule with 
 which he was acquainted, in which case he would, I think, be constantly acting 
 unjustly. I think, for those reasons, an English lawyer is, perhaps, the worst 
 person you could select for the purpose. But, further, I think he would 
 be very objectionable on another ground. It appears to me that it would 
 be introducing a new principle of exchision. The native would understand 
 nothing except that a person was brought from a remote country, and that 
 that person was put into a position to which he could never rise. It appears 
 to me therefore, that instead of the principle of exclusion which is now 
 familiar to him, though I do not know that he is quite reconciled to it, 
 you would be introducing another entirely new princi])le of exclusion, which 
 would present itself to the native mind in its worst of all shapes, that is, in the 
 shape of a national exclusion. He would think he was excluded for no other 
 reason than that he was a native, which is the worst possible feeling you could 
 excite in his mind. And further, 1 regard the native at this moment as in the 
 highway to be very soon competent to perform the highest judicial duties in 
 India. I do not think he is entirely fit to do so now, intellectually, and I would 
 not trust him with it till he has a sufficient law for his guidance. Morally, too, 
 I think his countrymen are of opinion that he cannot yet be trusted with such 
 functions ; but I think all those causes will very soon pass away, and the natives 
 of India will be fitted to hold the offices of the highest judges in the country. 
 If that should happen, what will be the consequence ? Instead of the principle 
 of exclusion which now exists, which everybody believes is temporary, you will 
 introduce a principle of exclusion which will ultimately turn out to be a per- 
 manent principle of exclusion ; because when once English lawyers get their 
 grasp upon the situation of judges in India it will be very difficult indeed to 
 loosen them from it. Keeping entirely in view, therefore, the advantage of the 
 native, to which I wish to subordinate all other considerations, I desire to keep 
 the door as wide open as possible, and to preserve an exclusive system, which 
 appears to me to be temporary, rather than adopt another to which I see no end. 
 3446. What would be your opinion of the system of appointing a native 
 judge to sit with a European judge in the zillah court, ancl if there were a 
 difference of opinion, requiring that that diflference of opinion should be reported 
 to the higlier court ? — In the first place, I do not tliink it would be of any use ; 
 the two judges would do n;uch better sitting alone ; they would decide more 
 cases if you left them separate. Secondly, after consideration, I am of opinion 
 that they would not work well together. I have had some experience upon 
 the subject myself, not of course as a judge, for I never was a judge, but as a 
 pleader. I was constantly in the habit of having native pleaders joinea with 
 me ill cases. I think, upon the whole, I conducted myself upon a jjrinciple that 
 was calculated to be very conciliatory to theiu, and I may say, without assuming 
 too much, that, generally speaking, the native pleaders preferred me to some 
 of their countrymen. But notwithstanding all that, and notwithstanding 
 that we had the Regulations and a great deal in common, wc never had 
 any consultations together. Each man took his own course, and I never 
 remember that we so much as considered in concert what we should do in 
 the cause. It appears to me that that would be very much the position 
 of two men on the bench. It is very easy for men who are acquainted 
 only with the natives of Calcutta to say that a native and a European 
 would do very well upon the bench together ; but the fact U, that the 
 
 native
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 333 
 
 native of Calcutta is in that respect only an En<>lishnian in the native dress ; N. D. E. Daillie, 
 he would generally have the same ideas as an Englishman, and probably they F-sq. 
 
 would concur very well together. But the native of the Tpper Provinces is 
 
 without all that English (education, and those English notions. If I hud him ^-^ ■'^P'^'^ '^•'3* 
 
 seated by me, and we were both deciding even a case of Mahomedan law, where 
 
 we should have many ideas in common, 1 should not derive the least benefit 
 
 from Ins assistance, nor he from mine. I think time would l)e wasted in my 
 
 attempting to bring him over to my opinion, and, upon the whole, it would be 
 
 better that 1 should be left to myself. I think that is likely to be the general 
 
 feeling. I have spoken upon the subject with men who are very well acquainted 
 
 with the character of the natives in the tapper Provinces, and they concur with 
 
 me in thinking that it is hardly conceivable that persons with ideas so entirely 
 
 different as natives and Englishmen should work well together as judges. 
 
 3447. There has been evidence given before this Committee of a character 
 to convey the impression that the European judge might be deficient in know- 
 ledge, and there might be suspicions of the motives of the native judge, which 
 would not apply to the European ; would not the union of the two correct the 
 defects which might be found in either I — The English judge might be di-ficient 
 in knowledge, but I do not think the deficiency in his knowledge of the law 
 could be supplied by the native judge ; I cannot conceive of any deficiency upon 
 the part of the English judge which could well be supplied by the knowledge of 
 the native judge, except with regard to the manners cf the country ; and 1 think, 
 upon the whole, that an Englishman who has been a sufficient time in the 
 country is quite competent to form his ideas upon that subject without the 
 native's assistance. But on the other hand, it is said that the suspicion "which 
 might be attached to the native would be counteracted by the general opinion 
 of the honesty of the European. I have no doubt that would be the case, but 
 I cannot see much good to arise from it. I think the European is well quahfied 
 for the work without the native's assistance, and if they are to be both employed, 
 it would be better that they should sit separately than together. 
 
 3448. A suggestion has been made that native judges might be admitted to 
 the sudder courts ; would you recommend that that should be done ? — No ; for 
 the same reason for which 1 think, upon the whole, they could not at present be 
 safely admitted to the zillah court, I do not think they could be admitted to 
 the sudder court. There is no doubt that there they would have the assistance 
 of English judges, but, for the reason that I before gave, I think their presence 
 would be of no use to the English judges ; it appears to me that the English 
 judges are quite competent for their duties at present. I remember a great 
 many judges who have sat in the Sudder Dev/anny Adawlut ; I knew some 
 few there who were certainly inferior, some superior, but I must say that the 
 average of the men I have met with in that court were fully competent to the 
 discharge of their judicial duties, and that they did not require the assistance 
 of the natives, or anybody else. 
 
 3449. Sir 7'. H. Maddock.] Considering that a native judge in a zillah court 
 would have a much more perfect knowledge of the language and the habits and 
 feelings of the natives than the English judge could ordinarily possess, are you 
 of opinion that he might not be of assistance to him as an assessor ? — I would 
 not say that he would be of no assistance to the Enghsh judge, but my idea 
 of an English judge who has acquired a sufficient experience of the natives, is 
 that he is perfectly competent to those duties without the assistance of a native, 
 and therefore it would be superfluous. Most of the judges I was acquainted with 
 appeared to me to be quite competent ; I should have preferred their judgment 
 to that of any native, or any combination of natives. 
 
 3450. Sir J. W. Hogg.~\ Do you think that Hindoos and ^Mahomedans in a 
 respectable situation of life are as conversant with the Hindoo and the Mahome- 
 dan law as people of a corresponding position of life in this cuuntr}' are with the 
 law of England r — It is very difficult to answer that question. 1 should say that 
 the Hindoos in general do not know much of their own law, beyond the law of 
 inheritance. I think the Mahomedans, particularly those who liave been 
 educated in the Madrissas, know in general a good deal of the law ; but that is 
 confined to people of education. 1 do not think the people at large can be 
 said to know either of those laws to anything like the extent to which i)ersons 
 in the same rank of society would be supposed to know the law in this 
 country. 
 
 0.10. T T 3 345'- Law
 
 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 V B E Baillie 345^- Law and religious usages are very much blended among the Hindoos, 
 ' Esq. ' are they not ? — In matters of inheritance they are. The fact is, there is very 
 
 little Hindoo law beyond the law of inheritance, and the law on collateral 
 
 35 April 1853. subjects, the law of adoption, the law of mai'riage, and the law of partition. 
 
 34,52. The ])articulars you have now enumerated embrace almost the whole 
 social law of the Hindoos ?^I should say so. 
 
 34;-i3. Are not Hindoo f'amihes of ordinary respectability generally very 
 conversant with those laws and usages.' — They are conversant with the law 
 and the usages generally, but I do not know that many of them could enter 
 minutely into the lavv' of inheritance ; they would know generally, of course, 
 that a son succeeds, and a daughter does not, and that the widow succeeds 
 where there are no sons, and general matters of that kind, but I do not know 
 that they could enter much into minute distinctions of the law. 
 
 3454. Sir T. H. Maddock.] Are they in the habit, when any misunder- 
 standing arises, of applying for a bewusta or other authority of some man 
 learned in the law ? — I think they would usually before commencing a suit 
 apply for a bewusta, but I do not know that it is a very general practice ; 
 bewustas are always given by the pundit in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. 
 
 34.55. Sir /. W. Hogg.'] Are you aware whether, since you left, a rule has been 
 introduced requiring that no person should be allowed to practice as a vakeel, 
 even in the subordinate courts, without undergoing an examination as to his 
 qualification, and producing certificates as to character ? — I do not know it of 
 my ovvn knowledge, but I have heai'd that there have been some rules lately 
 introduced to secure the better qualification of the vakeels. 
 
 34.56. With respect to the questions which you said the judges in the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut put to the vakeels, are the Committee to understand that 
 the object of those questions is to ascertain whether some particular fact is or 
 is not in dispute between the parties ? — Not merely whether it is in dispute 
 between the parties, but whether the fact be so or not ; because if it were 
 merely whether it were in dispute between the parties, that question would be 
 determined by a reference to the record ; I think that generally the question 
 went further than that, and I have known the native vakeels very much praised 
 by their clients on account of their readiness at an answer ; I am sorry to say 
 that those instances which were given to me, seemed to be rather adroit 
 evasions, if they were not something worse. 
 
 3457. You are conversant with the practice of the English courts as well as 
 with the practice of the native courts ; is not it a usual and common occurrence 
 for the judge to ascertain from a barrister what certain facts are or are not 
 admitted, or are or are not at issue? — Yes; and it was just for that purpose 
 that I, as soon as I began to have some practice in the courts, suggested to 
 the judges that I might save them a considerable amount of trouble by a state- 
 ment of the facts which were not in dispute. But those are not the questions 
 I allude to ; I refer to questions with regard to particular facts which may arise 
 in the case which the judge is in the habit of putting to the vakeels ; a,nd I have 
 * seen a question put to a vakeel to which it was impossible for the man to have 
 
 given a true answer without betraying the interests of his client. 1 could say 
 with perfect truth that I did not know it because niy client did not trust me 
 with the knowledge of that fact. Frequently I had reason to suspect that I was 
 not in the confidence of my client. 1 suppose for the reason that he thought 
 if I were exposed to that species of catechizing, I should not be equally ready to 
 give the answer that he was in the habit of having from his countrymen. 
 
 34.58. If the native vakeels were so reckless as to the nature of the answers 
 they would give, would not it have been rather perilous to suffer them to make 
 such a statement of facts to the judge as an English barrister makes ? — I l)e- 
 lieve that the judges distrusted the vakeels, and felt that they could not entirely 
 depend upon the statements which would be made by them ; but it appears to 
 me that all those fears are, generally speaking, referable to the system which 
 has kept the vakeel in so depressed a state. 
 
 34.59. Is it your belief, that if the character and j)osition of the vakeel were 
 raised to the extent that you think they ought to be, there would be no diffi- 
 culty in the j\ulges adopting the usage which prevails in the Queen's courts, of 
 allowing the vakeels each to state the case of his client ?■ — I think there would 
 be none ; I thiidv it would save the time of the court to a great extent, and 
 that it would reUevc the judge very much. I think there is a great deal of 
 
 obloquy
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITOUIES. 335 
 
 obloquy cast upon the jtid^e unjustly : people are not aware of his real posi- N. B. K. BailUe, 
 tion ; he is a man who is left almost entirely to himself, quite unassisted : he E«q- 
 
 has to investigate facts ; his judc^ment is frequentl}- biassed in the course of the 
 
 investigation; he comes to tiie end of it, after a long and wearis(mie sitting of "^ '^I'"' '^53- 
 two or three da}S ])erhaps, and then it is not surprising if sometimes he com- 
 mits a mistake in his jiulgment. My wonder rather is, not that the judge is 
 considered to be deficient when compared with the higher standard in the 
 Queen's courts, but that he is as good upon the whole as he is. 
 
 34(10. From your experience, is it your belief that justice is generally admi- 
 nistered by the Company's civil servants with ability and with integrity? — It is 
 administered certainh' with integrity ; I never knew anything like an exception 
 to that. I should say that justice is always administered with integrity ; 
 I think likewise that very generally it is administered with great ability. 
 I think the men I have seen in tiie courts, were some of them the best qualified 
 I could have picked out from India for the office ; but I think still there were 
 a good many cases, which no man. it does not matter what his capacitv is, even 
 if he were the Lord Chancellor or Lord Chief Justice, coxdd justly decide, from 
 the want of some previous rule. I have sometimes been driven to argue upon 
 questions so simple as this, what was a sale ? If j'ou put the question how anv 
 contract is constituted, there is no man that can venture to answer. 
 
 3461. Having had so much communication with the natives of India as you 
 have had, in your opinion is there a general impression upon their minds that 
 justice is fairly and im))artially administered ? — The native has a general feeling 
 against the honesty of all judges ; I think that general feeling has given way 
 entirely with regard to Enghsh judges, and I think, as a general rule, the native 
 believes that an English judge is usually honest ; the feeling of suspicion 
 I think still exists with regard to the native judges. 
 
 34(12. My question applied to the feeling entertained by the natives of India 
 respecting the manner in which the revenue and judicial duties are performed 
 by the Company's civil servants ; have they confidence in the integrity and 
 honesty with which those civil servants discharge their duties, both judicial and 
 revenue ? — I think, with regard to judicial duties, they have a general impres- 
 sion that the judicial duties are honestly performed by the English judges. 
 With regard to the revenue department, I cannot speak so exactly : I think 
 there is a great deal of soreness in the nati\e mind, which I should account for bv 
 the resumption regulations; there may be some exceptions; I do not know that it 
 is so, but I think the native mind is in that state with regard to revenue 
 questions, that it can hardly be expected to arrive at the expression of a fair 
 judgment ; but, apart from that, I think the impression is very strong that tlie 
 English judges generally act honestly. 
 
 34(13. With regard to those resumption regulations, did not the feeling of 
 irritation arise as much from the positive enactment respecting the resumption 
 as from the manner in which that enactment was carried into execution ? — I think 
 the natives did not draw any distinction as to the manner ; to the uatiAc it was 
 the same thing (I do not know that he was quite right) whether it was decided 
 in the Sudder Adawlut or in the way in which it was ; it was lo the fact of the 
 resumption that he objected. 
 
 34tD4. The native thought that any enactment whatever directing an inquiry 
 with a view to a resumption, under any circumstances of those lakhiraj lands, 
 was not onl}' an impolitic, but an unjust enactment? — 1 think that that was 
 the feeling on the part of the natives. 
 
 34()5. Do 30U think in princi|)le there is any great difference on the subject 
 of contracts between the English law, the Mahomedan law, and the Hindoo law } 
 — With regard to the Hindoos, I think they have scarcely any law upon the 
 subject ; I had to examine the Hindoo law of sale, and I could scarcely find 
 anything but the most trivial remarks contained in it ; I think, however, there 
 is a material distinction between the Mahomedan and the English law of con- 
 tracts. With regard to the construction of the great contract of sale itself, they 
 are constructed, as I have already observed, with reference to two diflFereut 
 principles, one leaning entirely to the purchaser, the other leaning almost 
 entirely to the seller ; the English law of caveat emptor being favourable to the 
 seller, the Mahomedan law, on the other hand, which gives an option and a 
 general warranty against defects, leaning to the purchaser. 
 
 3466. Can Englishmen now with due diligence become acquainted with the 
 0.10, TT J principles
 
 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 A B. E. Baillic, principles of the Hindoo and Mahomedan law, Ijoth as regards succession to 
 Esq. inheritance and the law of contracts, from existing; publications of authority in 
 
 ~- the English language ? — I sliould say not the Mahomedan law generally ; I think 
 2,5 April 1853. hecan withtheJlindoolaw. 
 
 3467. Has not the deficiency in regard to the Mahomedan law on the subject 
 of inheritance been to a considerable extent supplied of late, and i)artly by your 
 own labour ? — There is no doubt felt in i-egard to the Mahomedan law of inherit- 
 ance, for it is very well defined, and very generally known. 
 
 •5^(i8. Is that the case with regard to the Hindoo law ? — I think it is the case 
 with regard to the Hindoo law of inheritance ; I think the decisions of the 
 courts, the opinions of the ])iuidits, with the translations of the dyabhaga and 
 the mitacshaia, supply abundant materials to enable any Englishman to decide 
 all the cases which occur. 
 
 3460. Do not all the rest of the cases, except those which you have 
 enumerated, resolve themselves into something like the questions which arise 
 in courts of equity in this country r — It is so in the Company's courts ; that 
 arises, I think, very much from the courts rhemselves ; they are called courts 
 of equity and good conscience. It is very difficult in many cases to reduce the 
 cases to any principle of law, and the judge is obliged to form his opinion from 
 a number of minute circumstances, and come to the best decision he can upon 
 the whole of the facts. 
 
 3470. Admitting the analogy, were not the courts of equity here very much 
 guided by equity and good conscience till constant practice and continued 
 usage had reared up a system which became, in fact, a judge-made system of 
 law ? — That is the origin of the decisions in the courts of equity, certainly. They 
 were at first decisions of equity ; they are now as much decisions of law as the 
 decisions of the courts of common law. 
 
 347 1 . If we had the decisions of the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut and the other 
 courts in India reported, sliould not we have something to guide us which 
 would be very much like that which guides the decisions in the courts of equity 
 in this country r — I should regard it as a very insufficient guide. My opinion 
 is, that the cases are not parallel; I think a great deal of that siniilarity of 
 decision which has arisen in the case of the English law, arises from the fact 
 that English law has followed very much English customs. In the courts of 
 equity, equity is very much founded upon the civil law, and perhaps the civil 
 law is the general law, which has kept things nearly in the same channel in 
 almost all the countries of Euro])e ; and if you had conunenced in India with 
 any one law, if civilians had been taught merely the civil law, and nothing but 
 the civil law, or the Mahomedan law, and nothing but the Mahomedan law,. 
 I believe before this time you would have had a long and consistent course 
 of decisions, and very likely a law, which to a veiT considerable extent, would 
 have supplied the present deficiency. You have not that, however, and I 
 believe the reason is, that there has been no couunon standard to which any 
 man could i-efer. No man can refer to anything but his own ideas of equity, 
 and the ideas of two men do not very frequently concur. I believe it is im- 
 l)ossil)le, uidess you commence with some couunon standard, to have a con- 
 sistent system of law arising out of decisions. 
 
 3472. Mr. Mtii)(]lrs.\ Has not the law of Lord Cornwallis ])laced the Go- 
 vernment upon a footing of perfect equality with its subjects in all matters at" 
 litigation whatever ? — I think it has. 
 
 .;473. ;\s you have been the pli'^itlfi' of 'I'*' Government in the Sudderr 
 Court, and have l)een cognisant of many of tin; cases brought by appeal from 
 the lower courts, under such circumstances will you state wliether you believe 
 tliat the native subjects of the Government obtain full and substantial justice 
 in all matters of dispute concerning revenue, whether laud or salt nivenue, or 
 otherwise .' — Certainly ; 1 never saw anything like partiality in favour of the 
 CJovernmcnt, 1 should rather say the feeling was frcuiuently against the 
 Ciovcrnmcnt. I do not think it existed much (Uu-ing the time I had the 
 charge of the Government cases, for there were very few failures ; but I have 
 heanl it said, that there were some judges who always decided against the 
 Government. Whether there was any truth in that statement or not I cannot 
 say. During my time the Government was successful in a very large propor- 
 tion of the eases which came into the courts. 
 
 3474. Is not there another safi-guard ; is not the collector, before he brings 
 
 an
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 337 
 
 an action on the \)iirt of the Government against any individual, and before he N. B. K. liatlln:, 
 defends a suit broui^ht by any individual against the (iovernnient oblifjed to ''sq- 
 
 apjjly to the C'oniuiissiuner or to the Roard of Revenue for permission to briu"- 
 
 or defend such an action r — Yes, that is the practice. ^'i April 1853. 
 
 3475. All cases which are not clearly such as the Government ouglit to 
 bring or to defend, are given up by the superior revenue authorities? — I think 
 it must be so, and to that I would ascribe more than to any other cause, the 
 almost lun'form success which attended the Government cases when I had them. 
 At one time I made a calculation, and only about seven per cent, of the 
 Government cases failed. 
 
 3476. Is not that a very honourable peculiarity of the law of India as com- 
 pared with the law of England '. — I think it is ; there was complete impartiality 
 certainly in the Sudder l)ewann\- Adawlut, and the courts subjected to it, so far 
 as the Governmint wej-e concerned. 
 
 3477. Are you aware that in this country the Crown has great privileges in 
 that respect r — Yes, I l)elieve they are to be abolished ; but the Crown has the 
 privilege of not paying costs. 
 
 347S. Has not the Crown the privilege of not allowing suits to be brought.? 
 — 1 cannot say what the practice is upon that subject. 
 
 3479. Y''ou were asked whether vakeels were ever appointed to the native 
 bench, and you answered as if they were never appointed, except to the lower 
 grades ; are not you aware that in many instances vakeels of high reputation are 
 appointed in the first instance to the office of Sudder Amin r — I am very glad 
 to hear that that is the practice ; I do not think it was the practice when I was 
 in India : I recollect remonstrating with some persons who I thought had some 
 influence, and pointing out that I thought those situations ought to be filled by 
 vakeels of good practice in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut. I do not know what 
 the practice may be now ; of course, at first when those situations were filled 
 up, many of them must have been filled up liy the appointments of vakeels, 
 but I have always understood that the native judicial service was constructed 
 upon the principle of promotion from the lower grades. 
 
 3450. Y'ou recommended the abolition of the jurisdiction of the Moonsiffs ; 
 do you mean that the Sudder Amins should be stationed in difl^erent localities 
 about the district, or remain at head-quarters ?— There is a distinction between 
 the two classes of cases I have mentioned, summary cases and the reaiular cases. 
 In the summary cases the general rule ought to be for the parties to appear in 
 per.son. and it would put the parties to great inconvenience if they had to come 
 to a distance from their homes. Those cases would not be the cases decided hv 
 the Sudder Amin. In the regular cases, I think, there is always a professional 
 agent appointed, and therefore it is a matter of no consequence where the Sud- 
 der Amin happens to be located. His best position is to be al the head-quar 
 ters of the zillah judge ; and the great advantage of that would be, that there 
 might be vakeels practising before the zillah judge and before the Sudder 
 Amin and the principal Sudder Amin altogether. I think it is very important 
 that there should be no petty vakeels. 
 
 3451. You spoke of the almost universal untrustworthiness of the native wit- 
 nesses. I remember a passage in Mill's " History of India "' in which he says 
 " Such is the great difficulty of administering justice to a people without the 
 assistance of themselves, and such, in the present condition of the people of 
 India, is the impossibilit)' of obtaining that assistance." Does your experience 
 bear out that statement? — In the administration of criminal justice, I think the 
 assistance of the people is a very desirable thing ; but I do not think it is a matter 
 of much consequence in the administration of civil justice, k ajjpears to me 
 that there is very frequently in the cases which come into the Company's courts, 
 without reference to the evidence given by the witnesses, a good deal from 
 which the judge can infer sufficient 10 enable him to decide. I do not see how 
 the assistance of the people could be of much use excejit in the administration 
 of criminal justice. In aiding the police it might be of great importance. 
 
 3452. I remember the circuit report of a judge, in wnich he says, " I have 
 been trying such and such a case of gang robbery ; the parties accused i;ave 
 been positively sworn to by many witnesses, but it is imp( ssible that I can 
 convict him to my own satisfaction without cireumstautial evidence, because if 
 a judge were to act upon such evidence as 1 have in this case, v,o man 
 would be safe to whom a zemindar had any enmity;" do you think that a 
 
 0.10. C u coi-rect
 
 338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 N. B. E. Daillk, correct expression of the state of things ? — I think it is very likely. I think 
 ^sq- there are many cases in which the decision is contrary to the evidence, but it 
 
 " \ is very likely that those decisions have been nevertheless quite correct. The 
 
 -5 ^P"^ 1853. truth is, there is a great peculiarity in regard to the testimony of witnesses in the 
 Company's courts. 1 think it arises from some peculiar views that the natives 
 entertain of the nature of evidence. Everybody who is much acquainted 
 with the depositions of native witnesses, must have observed that they are, 
 generally speaking, direct ; they are nearly as direct as possible to the point at 
 issue ; there is not much circumstance introduced into their depositions ; the 
 circumstances which are introduced seem to be introduced for the jjurpose of 
 giving them credibility. It appeared to me that the natives had an idea that 
 that kind of evidence,' evidence direct to the fact which was in dispute, was 
 necessary to the correct decision of the case. I think that oral evidence was 
 frequently superadded , upon the idea that it was necessary, when it would 
 otherwise not have been introduced into the case. It was frequently put in 
 as a sort of additional ornament to the case, as if that was necessary. My idea 
 of it is, that in the native mind there is a notion that no case is sufficiently got 
 up unless there is an addition of that kind of direct evidence. 
 
 34S3. Does not the state of things of which you have spoken render it 
 necessary to make great allowances for the difficulty experienced in the admi- 
 nistration of justice in such a country ? — I think a judge is placed in a most 
 embarrassing position, and that it is very difficult without taking that into con- 
 sideration to come to a fair opinion as to the manner in which he performs his 
 duties ; and my impression is that there is a great deal of unjust obloquy cast 
 on the administration of justice by the judges in India, entirely from ignorance ; 
 the people at large do not know what the judges have to do. If they really 
 saw the amount of labour which is cast upon the judges, they would judge of 
 them much more fairly than they are in the habit of doing. 
 
 3484. Mr. V. Smith.'] You stated that you entertained a very low opinion of 
 the veracity of the natives in oral evidence ; do you mean that you entertain 
 abetter opinion of their truthfulness in giving written evidence?—! cannot 
 say that; I distinguish oral evidence from the remaining circumstances of the 
 case. There may be many circumstances, such as Enghsh letters, or previous 
 decisions, or the proceedings of a collector in a case, but I do not niake any 
 distinction between oral and written evidence, except this, that it is moi-e diffi- 
 cult to forge a document than to suborn a witness ; and there are many cases 
 in which there are witnesses who speak falsely where there are no fciged docu- 
 ments, but there are cases also where there are most palpable forgeries. 
 
 3485. You stated that in cases in whi(!h you were concerned, you put aside 
 the oral evidence ; upon what then did you rely ? — There is a great deal to be 
 inferred from the statements of the parties themselves. 
 
 3486. Are they written or spoken? — The written statements of the parlies. 
 There must be a certain coherence in a plaint ; u man may be sometimes con- 
 victed out of his own mouth. That was my practice ; and I believe generally 
 my practice was successful in that court. I do not recollect at this moment 
 that 1 ever had much occasion to refer to the testimony of the witnesses. 
 
 3487. With respect to the belief you entertain that there is confidence felt 
 by the natives in the integrity of the British judges, did you ever happen to 
 hear of any attempt, on the part of the natives, to tamper with the judges? — 
 I do not rect)llect, in my own time, any attempt of the kind. If there is 
 what is (tailed a black shee]) in the service, th(^ natives find him out long 
 before he is suspected by the Europeans in gcnrral, I do not recollect any 
 l)articular cases, except one or two, which are notorious, of persons who 
 have been brought to trial. I do not think that, generally, it would he 
 believed that an English judge is exposed to tlie suspicion of pecuniary corrup- 
 tion. In general 1 may state that the native agents, who are frequently 
 (•mploycd in addition to the vakeels, are really the origin of much of the sus- 
 picion wiiich is cast upon the judges and judicial functionaries ; their object is 
 to extort as much as they can out of their constituents ; they make all sorts of 
 pretexts fur recjuiring money, but 1 do not think any such agent would hope to 
 extort from his constituent anything upon the ground of a tiirect bribe given 
 to an lln;.;lish judge. 
 
 3488. As to the native judges, is it the habit to solicit them ? — I cannot 
 yay ; I never knew an instance of the kind ; there is a very general sus- 
 picion
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRI'IORIES. 3r,() 
 
 picion on the pai't of the natives with regard to the native judges, but I never .V. B. E. Bai/lle, 
 knew a case which was brought nie for appeal by a native, where, though he Esq. 
 
 had all manner of objections to the decision, he charged the judge with cor- ~"""^ 
 
 ruption. I remember frequently hearing the opinion expressed, that there were -5 Apn i r,3. 
 
 only two honest men among all the native judges, but I did uotbeli(!ve it myself. 
 
 I lliinlc the native judges were very generally honest, but unfortunately the 
 
 susjjicion of their countrymen still attached to them, because it had attached 
 
 originally to the judicial character ; that general suspicion I believe is now 
 
 done away with as far as the European is concerned, and I think it will be 
 
 very soon done away with in the case of the native judges, by the experience 
 
 that wiU be afforded of their honesty. 
 
 .■5489. Should you give the same opinion with respect to the possibility of 
 obtaining a decision by means of partiaHty and influence? — ^\ ith regard to 
 favour and influence, it is almost impossible to disposses the natives of the idea 
 that every judge is open to that kind of corruption, that is, speaking generally ; 
 but the natives who were about the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut knew very well 
 that the judges of that court, in general, were men whom it was impossible to 
 influence in that way ; still, however, I think the general feeUng exists, that 
 almost all judges are open to some sort of general influence or favour; they 
 are very much inclined to say, that a case has been decided against them from 
 some partial feeling. 
 
 3490. Mr. Lal)OMchere.'\ In cases between Europeans and natives, is there 
 any belief of the existence of an unfair bias in favour of the former ? — I do not 
 think there is ; I should think if there were any bias in the mind of an English 
 judge it would be rather against his countrymen than in their favour. 
 
 34()i. And you think there is a general belief in their impartiality in that 
 respect ? — I think so. I still think that the natives of India have that universal 
 feeling, that all judges are exposed to some sort of influence ; and I am 
 sorry to say it has been played upon to a very considerable extent by persons 
 in India, who have, in some cases, written to judges to bespeak their favoui-able 
 consideration of causes which were before them. I have known that to be the 
 fact in several cases. I remember a judge of the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut 
 showing me a letter which he had received; " See," he said, " the manner iu 
 which we are treated." This was a letter from an European gentleman, high 
 in society, requesting the judge to look favourably upon a case which was then 
 before him. The judge said, " I was going to decide this case in favour of the 
 party who brought me the letter, but after this I must send it on to another 
 judge." 
 
 3492. Did he read the letter publicly? — He said if it occurred again the 
 only thing he could do was to file a similar letter in the proceedings. I think 
 the impression on the native mind that the judges may be influenced is very 
 much kept up by the vicious practice, of which 1 have given the Committee an 
 instance. I do not think the impression is just, and as regards particular 
 judges, I am quite convinced that the natives were fully of opinion that those 
 men, at any rate, were quite beyond any influence of the kind. 
 
 3493. Mr. E/liot.] Were you the vakeel in the case in which the letter was 
 shown : — No. 
 
 3494. With respect to the duties of judges in India you have already given 
 your opinion as to the disqualification of legal gentlemen from this country to 
 occupy those places ; the questions which have been put have had reference 
 to their actual judicial duties in deciding cases ; is not there also a kirge mass 
 of miscellaneous business belonsiing to each court? — There is a great deal 
 of miscellaneous duty ; it comes generally in the shape of a petition ; it is 
 in its nature summary ; there is a great deal of it in connexion with the 
 execution of decrees. The judges all execute their own decrees ; the zillah 
 judges have also to execute the decrees of the judges of the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut. In the execution of decrees a great many tortuous questions arise 
 which, I think, would very much embarrass a man just come out from 
 England. I do not know any case more likely to try the temper and throw 
 a man into perfect despair if he were in the situation in which I have seen 
 judges under such circumstances. I will mention one case which occurred 
 in the execution of a decree for the recover}' of costs advanced in England 
 by the Court of Directors with regard to the conduct of an appeal in the 
 Privy Council. In this case the parties had come to a compromise ; the 
 
 0.10. UU2 compromise
 
 340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 A', n. E. BiiiUie, compromise was sent to England, and was embodied in the decree. The 
 Esq. case had been conducted under Lord Bnnigham's Act ; very considerable 
 
 expense was incurred, and that expense the Court of Directors paid in the 
 
 s.r April iS;',"}. f^i-st instance, having to receive it from the appellant afterwards bv the 
 execution of the decree in India. The decree came out to be executed. It 
 was sent to me for the purpose. The first question which arose was a dis- 
 pute between the two parties to the original case with regard to a new docu- 
 ment that was said to be forged, throwing the costs entirel)' upon one of the 
 parties. After that was decided, five or six separate claimants started up for 
 the property wliich was seized in the execution of this decree, and each of those 
 claims was, in fact, a distinct case : those cases involved revenue matters ; the 
 claims, generally speaking, applied to land paying revenue, and the business to 
 be done would, in fact, be e(|ual to five separate suits. Cases of that sort, I think, 
 would be very much calculated to embarrass an English judge appointed in the 
 manner which has been suggested. 
 
 .■>4().5. You stated that you would recommend that English, Persian, and 
 Bengalee, and whatever language might be used in the province, should be 
 used in a cause in the Mofussil before an English judge ? — Yes. 
 
 34()6. Do you mean that in the same cause one vakeel might plead in English, 
 and another in Persian, or in Bengalee r — At this moment one vakeel may do 
 so, unless the rule has been abolisbed ; a vakeel might put in a pleading in 
 Persian, in answer to a plaint in Bengalee. In the same way wherever there 
 is an English judge, I think now the time has come when the English language 
 may be put upon the same footing with the Persian, and the other vernacular 
 languages of the country ; whether the opposite vakeels understand English or 
 not, it should be permitted in such cases. 
 
 34U7. If there are oral pleadings, how are the two vakeels to conduct them 
 in those languages ? — That is a difficulty which may occur in all countries where 
 the people speak different languages. 
 
 3498. Sir T. H. Aladdock.] An opinion has been expressed by some of the 
 witnesses before the Committee, in favour of an amalgamation of the Supreme 
 ('ourt and the Sudder Court in Calcutta ; will you favour the Committee with 
 your opinion upon that subject ? — In the first place I do not exactly under- 
 stand what the amalgamation would be, or what the duties of the amalgamated 
 court would be. 
 
 3499. It has been suggested that this court should consist of some of the 
 present judges of the Sudder Dewannv Adawlut, and of certain judges 
 apiwinted as the present judges of the Supreme Court are, and that they should 
 sit together and be a general court of appeal from all the territories of Bengal? 
 — That is, I presume, that they sliould be a court of appeal from the Supreme 
 Court, luA also from all the Company's courts. 
 
 3500. I'Vom another court which would take the place of the Supreme Court 
 as a local English court of law r — I should rather confine myself to that jiart 
 {jf the subject which I best understand ; that is, how it would work with 
 regard to the native causes. It appears to me that an appeal court, formed of 
 English barristers or I'^nglish judges, and the present judges, would derive no 
 advantage from such a combination. I look upon the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut a-^ perfectly competent for the duties it has to perform, and I do not 
 see that a combination with it of any Enghsh judges would benefit it. I think, 
 on the other hand, that they are not likely to work well together ; the notions 
 of the men would !«■ perfet^tly distinct, and they would not be of much service 
 if brought together. 
 
 3.101. Are you aware that in February last I presented ajjctitinn to the House 
 of Connnons from certain Hindoo inhabitants of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, for 
 tliemselves and tlie other inhabitants of the same provinces ? — I do not recollect 
 the particular petition. 
 
 3.502. It is a jjctition complaining of the passing of Act 21 of 18.50, which 
 was an extension of the jjrovision, Section 19 of Regulation 7, of 1832, to all 
 India "- — I am aware that such a petition was presented. 
 
 3.')'>3. Will you state your opinion upon the merits of that petition ? — I suppose 
 .generally that the object of the petiticm was to object to the ))assing of that /Vet, 
 and that it is with regard to that that my opinion is asked : 1 think the question 
 involves one of jjolicy, on which really I cannot venture to express any opinion ; 
 but if my opinion is asked in regard to its operation upon the Hindoo law, I 
 
 think
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEItKlTORIES. .]4i 
 
 ihink it was inconsistent with the Hindoo law, that it was a suljversion of the a*. 7? E Bi'Ui' 
 principles of the llimloo law, and tliat in its operation it has an mieqnal effect Esq. 
 
 in l^engal and in the Western Provinces. Those appear to me to be some 
 
 of the objections to that measnre. 25 April j8.-;;>. 
 
 3504. Will von e\])!ain from ^\hat the inequality arises"- — The inequality is 
 this : by the Hindoo hnv of Beni^al, a Hindoo has it in his i)ower to counteract 
 the effect (>f the law by his will ; in the Western Provinces he has no such 
 })ower with rej^ard to his patrimonial estate. The [Niahomedans, also, have no 
 ))Ovver of bequeathing their ])roperty beyond the third. 
 
 o.'Jc^'i. That Act "as the extension of a clause in an old Regulation, appli- 
 cable only to Bengal, to the Mahomedan and Hindoo inhabitants of all the 
 rest of India r— Yes, it seems to be so. 
 
 P,!\oG. Mr. Lfiirc] You have said that there is a certain amount of suspicion 
 still attaching to the native judges, but not to the European judges: is there 
 any suspicion in the native mind as to the means b}'' which reversals of judg- 
 ments given in the inferior courts may be obtained, on applying to the Sudder 
 fJDewanny Adawlut ? — No, 1 think not. 
 
 3507. There is no impression that a rich man has a better chance than a 
 poor man in gettins; a decision reversed .' — I should say certainly not ; 1 do not 
 think there is any impression of that kind. 
 
 3508. Sir T. II. Maddoc//.] Is it your opinion that the inferior oflicers in the 
 Sudder Dewanny Adawlut and the other courts where English judges preside 
 are never bribed '. — There was at one time, I believe, a good deal of corruption 
 among the native ofHcers, for a particular reason ; the judges wei-e in the habit 
 of sitting separately at that time. All the time I was in the court, up to a vei'y 
 short period before 1 left it, the judges pursued that practice of sitting separ- 
 atel)'^, and then it was considered a matter of great moment sometimes to get 
 a case before some one particular judge in preference to another. That is 
 another exemplification of that diversity of opinion which I Ijefore referred to ; 
 the judges, in fact, were known to think very differently on certain subjects. 
 There was a great deal of money said to be given to the native omlah, for the 
 purpose of securing their influence in getting the case sent to one judge rather 
 than another. I do not think there was a great deal of money actuail}' given, 
 but it Mas always a common pretext of the mookhrar that a great deal of 
 money was necessary for the purpose. I do not think there is any necessity 
 for it now, and if the native officer gets anything, it is very trifling. 
 
 3509. The mookhtar would not be very scrupulous in such a case in inserting 
 a large sum in his bill to his client, would he r — He would insert every possible 
 item in his bill that he thought he had the least chance of getting credit for. 
 The bill, I understand, begins in Calcutta, with the goddess Kalee, who is 
 usually put do^Yn for a considerable figure. I have vniderstood also that the 
 vakeels sometimes stood for considerable sums in the mookhtar's bills, and 
 so did the omlah. Very frequently a large sum would be put down as having 
 been given to the omlah when nothing of the kind was given. 
 
 3510. Sir 7\ II. Maddocli.'] You have spoken of the almost universal false- 
 hood of the native witnesses ? — I stated that there appeared to me to be some 
 peculiar notion in the mind of the native, that it is necessary to garnish all their 
 cases with some amoiuit of oral evidence, whether it is really required or not, 
 and that leads to a great deal of falsehood. 
 
 3511. Do you limit that remark to Calcutta and its vicinity, or do you ex- 
 tend over the whole of Bengal and the North Western Provinces ? — Of the 
 North-western Provinces, I know nothing practically, and I could not form 
 any opinion with respect to them. In all the cases that 1 had to do with from 
 the three Provinces of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, I think it was the feeling of 
 almost all the judges, that there was no reliance to be placed upon oral testi- 
 mou)', and that in those (-ases the judge must, from all the circumstances of 
 the case, endeavour to find his way to a conclusion in the best wa)^ he could. 
 
 John Clarke ]\Iarshncin, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 3512. Chairman. '\\^'\\Aj yon state to the Committee for what period you J. C. Marshyrai:, 
 resided in India, and what were the occupations which you followed? — 1 went Esq. 
 
 out to India, a second time, some 29 years ago, and I have continued to reside 
 
 0.10. u xj 3 near
 
 342 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J, C. Marshman, 
 
 Esq. 
 
 'J J April 1853. 
 
 near Calcutta ever since that time. I established the lirst newspaper in the 
 Bengalee language more than 29 years ago, with a view of promoting a spirit 
 of inquiry among the natives. I was for 18 years editor of a weekly journal, 
 called '• The Friend of India," and I was employed for lo years as the Govern- 
 ment translator in the Bengalee language. All these occupations brought me 
 into constant intercourse with natives of all classes, and with gentlemen, both 
 official and non-official, in the European community, and enabled me to obtain 
 a considerable amount of knowledge of the general character, and the working, 
 and the defects of our public institutions. 
 
 351 3. You had opportunities of observing the administration of civil justice ; 
 will you favour the Committee with your views as to the laws prevalent in the 
 Regulation Provinces, what are their defects, and what are the remedies which 
 you would apply r — The laws which are current in the Regulation Provinces are 
 the code passed by Lord Cornwallisiu 1793, with all the additions which have 
 since been made to it, and the constructions put upon it by the Sudder Court, 
 the circular orders of the Sudder Court in explanation of the Regulations, and 
 the cases decided in the Sudder Court, which have extended to seven or eight 
 volumes, and are considered as precedents, and followed as much as the law itself 
 by all the inferior courts. The great disadvantage of this codi^ is its extreme 
 voluminousness. I think it is necessary for any individual who would master the 
 code, to purchase from 15 to IG quarto volumes, and to read them through. The 
 law has also gradually become more and more complex, and requires a vast 
 deal more study than it originally did. It is also too full of technicalities, 
 because it was originally based, in some measure, upon the English law, and 
 it does require an immense deal of time and attention for any one to be- 
 come acquainted with it. The law is at present so used by the natives, that 
 almost every suit is a game. And I think the laws, generally, afford moi'e 
 opportunities for defeating the ends of justice than for promoting them. 
 
 3514. How would you correct those evils? — I think it is necessary that the 
 laws should be re-modelled, and that we should be enabled to introduce a much 
 more simple system of law, better adapted to the habits and feelings of the 
 people, similar to that which has been introduced in this country into the 
 county courts, and which has been established in Calcutta in the small-cause 
 court ; and also in some respects similar to the laws which have been drawn up 
 for the Non-regulation Pi'ovinces, and more especially for the newly conquered 
 province of the Punjaub. For the Punjaub a very short and simple code of 
 civil law, or rather of civil procedure, has been drawn up exactly adajjted 
 to the wants and to the exigencies of the people, and it has bet-n found to 
 work admirably. It is exceedingly popular among all classes in the Punjaub, 
 and it is found to be the instrument of dispensing substantial justice among 
 them. It is some such simplification, or a code framed upon the same principle, 
 which lias been adopted in the courts I have alluded to, that seems to be 
 desirable in the Rt^gulation Provinces. And I may mention, that it is the 
 earnest desire of the present Government of India to introduce a simpliticatiou 
 of our laws, and that it was generally expected that the Government of India 
 would be enabled to establish something like the small-cause court, which has 
 worked so admirably in Calcutta, throughout the country, before the end of the 
 present year. 
 
 35'.> With regard to the gradation of employment through which a cove- 
 nanted civil servant must pass before he arrives at the office of judge, is there 
 any defect in the existing system, in your opinion? — I think the present system 
 is generally condemned, because a civilian comes to the office of a civil judge 
 that is, a judge of a civil and session court, without having had any opportunity 
 whatever of studying the civil law which is current in the country. The grada- 
 tion by which a man attains his seat ujjou the civil bench may be; thus 
 described : after a young civilian has left the college, he is employed for the 
 space of six, seven, or eiglit years as an assistant to a magistrate, or to a 
 collector ; he then becomes perhaps acting magistrate, and at tlic end of about 
 eiglit years is appointed to the charge of a magistracy ; he continues a magis- 
 trate till he has been about l.'» years in the service; after that ])eriod he is 
 appointed collector, and has then nothing whatever to do with the criminal 
 law, or with the police ; after ha^ ing been for six or seven years a collector, lie 
 is aj)pointed to the post of civil and session judge, and all the knowledge, or a 
 great portion of the knowledge which he has previously acquired, becomes of 
 
 very
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 343 
 
 very little use to liini. As a civil nnd session judge he has the general siiperin- /. c. Ma,shmuty 
 tcndence of the judicial adnntiistrution, as it, regards the civil law, of the K^-q 
 
 whole district, and the business of his court is to hear appeals from the 
 subordinate courts, which are for the most part filled by natives thoroughly 25 April 1833. 
 versed in the law and procedure of the coiu'ts, and men who have obtained 
 long and admirable judicial experience ; he comes therefore upon the bench, 
 suddenly, to hear appeals from men who are far better acquainted with 
 the law and practice of the coiu-ts than himself. This lias a natural tendency 
 to deprive his decisions of all confidence in the opinion of the community in 
 general ; and it is generally supposed that his decisions are influenced by 
 some one native of the court, in whom he happens to have particular confi- 
 dence. Of course this feeling of want of confidence in his decisions is gradualh^ 
 removed in proportion as his judicial experience increases ; but he labours 
 under the disadvantage of hiiving ahnost all his decisions received with great 
 mistrust by the people of the country for the first year or two years after he 
 comes to the bench. 
 
 3516. What course would you recommend to be pursued to remedy those 
 defects '. — I think the remedy should begin in this country, at Haileybury, and 
 that a larger portion of the time of the students at that college should be 
 devoted to the study of the general principles of jurisprudence, and also, in 
 some measure, to the particular laws which are administered in India, and which 
 it would be very easy for them to acquire a knowledge r,f through a digest. It is 
 indispensable that a civil judge in India should be well versed in the question of 
 land tenures and everything connected with the interests of the agricultural 
 community, because the great majority of the suits that come before the courts are 
 connected with land and with landed interests. As the civil and session judge 
 has to try questions connected with the pohce and with criminal law, it is like- 
 wise necessary that he should have some acquaintance with the law and practice 
 of the criminal courts. If he were appointed, as at present, assistant to the 
 magistrate and the collector, immediately after leaving college and entering upon 
 the public duties of the service, and continued in the gradations of assistant to 
 the magistrate and the collector, and joint magistrate and deputy collector, for 
 the space of five or tix years, he would have an opportunity of making himself 
 thoroughly acquainted with the criminal law, with the general police of the 
 country, and with all the innumerable questions which arise out of landed 
 tenures. 1 think after that period he should be required to make his election 
 either to continue in the collector's branch, or to go off into the judicial 
 branch. I should at the same time mention, that ver}^ great disadvantage is 
 universallv admitted to have arisen from the abolition of the office of registrar 
 or assistant judge, which was extinguished by Lord \Villiam Bentinck some 
 20 years ago ; and it is the universal opinion of all classes, both European and 
 native, that the revival of this office would be an immense advantage in the 
 administration of civil justice. 1 should think, therefore, that after a civilian 
 has thus been employed under the magistrate and collector for six or seven 
 years, he might be then appointed to the i^jtuation of registrar of the civil 
 courts. This would enable him to understand the mode of procedure in those 
 courts, and give him an admirable opportunity of studying the civil law. He 
 would, of course, be employed by the judge in assisting him in superintending 
 the general administration of justice throughout the district, anrl would become 
 thoroughly acquainted with all the native judges in it. He might also be 
 employed at first in Iiearing appeals of a definite amount from their decisions. 
 I think that after having filled the office of registrar he should be at once 
 promoted to the post of civil and session judge, without the necessity of 
 his going through the collectorate line for seven or eight years. We 
 should thus have a body of men thoroughly acquainted with the civil 
 law of the country, with the mode of procedure, and with the general 
 working of our judicial institutions before they came to the bencli, and 
 I think, then, that the ablest men from among the civil judges should be 
 chosen for the Superior or Sudder Court, and that it should not be necessary 
 for them to go, as they do at present, from the office of civil and session judge 
 to that of commissioner, where they have nothing whatever to do with the 
 civil law, and are engaged entirely in revenue questions. They would thus 
 come fresh from the inferior courts up to the superior court, and I think this 
 would give greater confidence to the people in the general administration of 
 0.10. u u 4 justice ;
 
 344 MINUTES OF E\ IDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C AIarsh7na)i, justioc : because, althousih the administration of justice in the Sudder Dewannv 
 Esq- Adauhit has certainly of hitc been held in high repute, it was not so seven oi- 
 
 ; eight j'ears ago. Some men were ajipointed to the bench in the Sudder Court 
 
 -•5 ■^f"''' '^53- •vvho hatl never even sat for six months in any civil court whatever, and thij 
 had a tendency to destroy the jiublic contidcncc in their decisions. But if the 
 ablest men are selected from the general civil bench of the country and sent U]) 
 into the Sudder without any intermediate employment in a line totally foreign 
 from that of civil jurisprudence, it would become exceedingly popular in the 
 country, and would be of very great assistance to the general administration of 
 civil justice. 
 
 3517. Mr. Ellice.] Under whose administi-ation were those judges appointed 
 to the Sudder Court who had so little experience ? — I cannot just now mention, 
 the particular administration, biit I am certain that three or four judges within 
 the last ten years have been ajjpointed to the Sudder Court who had not been 
 for more than six months civil judges at all. 
 
 35 1}^. You cannot recollect the period during which those gentlemen had 
 served in other situations in India than the situations in which they then 
 sened .' — Some of those to whom I allude had sei'ved as collectors, and had 
 been appointed from the office of collector to that of revenue commissioner, 
 and from the office of revenue commissioner had been suddenly put into the 
 Sudder Court. 
 
 3510. Sir 2\ II. Maddoch.'] Do }ovn' observations apply to one gentlcmaii 
 who was appointed while I was in India a judge of the Sudtler Court, INlr. 
 Colvin ; had he any previous experience of judicial business ? — Mr. Colvin had 
 had one or two years' previous training in civil cases as Commissioner in the 
 Tennaserim Provinces. 
 
 3520. C/uiiriiian.] Is not the revenue department more lucrative than the 
 judicial liepartment : — The ofHce of revenue commissioner is better paid thar. 
 th;.t of a civil and session judge, but in the Lower Provinces the collector has 
 500 or GOO rupees a month less than the civil judge. 
 
 3521. So that there is no great inducement in the way of emolument ta 
 render the civil servants more anxious to be employed in the revenue than in 
 the judicial departnient? — Not at all in the Bengal provinces ; but I should say 
 that at Bombay the collector and magistrate are upon a })ar in point of emolu- 
 ment with the civil and session judge. 
 
 3522. What is your opinion as to the general character of the European 
 covenanted judges in respect of their incorruptibility, integrit\-, and independ 
 encc"-— I think the general imjjression throughout the country is, that the_v 
 are, with one or two exceptions jjerhaps, which must be well known to the 
 Government, (juite ii;eorruj)til)le. 1 do not think that was the case .')() or (JO 
 years ago ; 1 think tliat there was not tlien the same liegree of coutidence in the 
 incorruptibility of the European judges that exists at present ; but the general 
 impression throughout the native connnunity, with two or three exceptions, is,, 
 that the Euroi)ean judge is absolutely incorruptible. 
 
 3523. Though the feeling of the natives is one of confidence in the integrity, 
 do they feel any distru.^t as to the knowhxige and legal Jic(juirements of the 
 Euroi)ean judge ? — Yes, when he tiist comes u])on the bench ; he lemains upon 
 the bench perhaps for six or seven years : it is only during the first year or 
 two after he comes upon the bench that his decisions arc received with this 
 degree of mistrust, and that the natives belii've that, in eonsecjuence of his own 
 ignorance of the law and of the practice of the courts, he is obhged to lean to 
 the opinion, and to dej)end upon the assistance, of some native who is su))- 
 jjosed to be a kind of favourite with him. 
 
 3524. Mr. Hildj/ard.^ In your judgment, would it be advisable that a person, 
 before he was a])pointed a judge of the Sudder Court, should be subjtHrt to anv 
 test or examniation as to his Knowledge and legal acquirements ■;* — I do not 
 think it would be at all necessary, because the civil and sessions judges, after 
 they have been six or seven or eight years ui)on llie IkiicIi, do obtain a very 
 good if not a thorough knowledge of the law anil the jjraclicc of the courts ; the 
 (iovernment have always an oi)i)ortuiiity of selecting for the Sudder Court men 
 in whom Ijoth tliey anil the ( ovuitry have perfect confidence. 
 
 3,'')-.V Would not the circumstance that they had i);isscd through some such 
 examii.ation give confidence to the natives? — 1 do not think so, because it 
 »NCuld not be necessary. 
 
 3.V2(i. Mr.
 
 SELECr COMMITTEK ON LN'DIAN TRRUrroRIKS. 34.-, 
 
 35-26. Mr. Ilardiiujt'.'] Do not the majority of (lie suits whidi coiiu- before 7. c. Mmshman, 
 the zilliih judii,e involve questions of land tenure ? — The majority of them do ; ^><^. 
 
 I made a eah'ulation once, and found them to amount to about 57 per cent. ; 
 
 those are questions connected with rent and bind tenure in the agricultural -5 '^P''"' 'Son- 
 districts. 
 
 35J7. Are not all the judi^es fitted, by their previous practical experience in 
 the administration jf the revenue, for conduetini^ such duties on the bench ? — 
 So far as that goes, they certainly have an advantage ; I stated that it would 
 be necessary lor them to have six or seven years' experience in the revenue 
 dejjartment. 
 
 j.yjS. Are not they fitted for the trial of criminals by their previous jjie- 
 paration as magistrates? — Yes, unquestionably; as magistrates they become 
 acquainted with the criminal law, and with the general police of the country, 
 and with the cliaracter of the jjeople. 
 
 3.529. Is the system of selection by seniority practically in force? — I think 
 it has been almost imiveisally followed in Bengal ; that is, if you take the 
 Directory, you will find that almost every man of a certain standing is a civil 
 and sessions judge, one after the other; coming down to the last man, you 
 find the collectors begin, and every man is acting as collector in succession, 
 till you come down to the grade of magistrate ; 1 think the system of seniority 
 has been almost universally followed in Calcutta. 
 
 3530. Have not you known instances of great complaints on the j)art of 
 civilians of having been disappointed in their expectation of promotion to the 
 office of judge ? — I have heard of such cases, and I think that the exception 
 there proves the rule, hi two or three instances in which the Government has 
 found it necessary to supersede some man of inferior talent, there have been 
 remonstrances made to the Government, as though it was breaking through a 
 sacred and binding rule. 
 
 353 I. Are yon aware that Mr. Tiiomason has appointed one of the younpest 
 and best judges in the North-Western Provinces to the Sudder Court ? — 1 am 
 speaking of the Bengal Presidency. Mr. Thoniason seems to have a very 
 profound contempt for the whole principle of seniority ; he has appointed a 
 young nian of nut 10 years' standing to the office of Registrar of the Sudder 
 Court, which is worth 2,500 /. a year ; but 1 do not think anything of the kind 
 has been done in Bengal, in the judicial line. 
 
 Jovis, 28° die Aprilis, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Biuinji. 
 Sir Geori;f Grev. 
 SirT. H. iMaddock. 
 Ml-. Spoonei-. 
 Ml-. Elliot. 
 Mr. ^Mangles. 
 Sir .1. W . llogiv. 
 Mi. lluuie. 
 Mr. Mihier Gibson. 
 .Mr. L.ibouclieie. 
 Sir R. H. hisxlis. 
 .Sir Charles Wood. 
 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Mr. Edward Ellice. 
 Viscount Jocelvn. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 Mr. Harclinge. 
 Mr. BuiUie. 
 Mr. Macoulay. 
 Mr. U. H. Clive. 
 Mr. Newdegate. 
 Mr. J. Fiizi-crald. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., in the Chair. 
 
 John Clarke Marshman, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 353-2. Chairman.] THE questions put to you on the last day applied to the J. c. Marshman 
 general character of the judicial system in the administration of civil justice, ^i<h 
 
 and to the quahfications of the European judges. The Committee will now pass 
 
 to the administration of civil justice by the native judges, and your oiiinion -^ ^^P''"' ^^53- 
 
 0.10. Xx \vith
 
 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 / C. Marshman, Avitb respect to their qualifications ; what is your opinion of the system now in 
 ^^1- force with regard to the administration of justice by the native judges, as it 
 
 T~ was remodelled by Lord WiUiam Bentinck r — The system was remodelled and 
 
 P" 1 53- carried to a degree of perfection by Lord William Bentinck about the year 
 1829 or 18;-50, but previously to that, the Government had established a grade 
 of sudder ameens for the cognizance of suits of greater amount tlian those 
 which had been previously entrusted to the moonsifFs. Lord William Bentinck 
 remodelled the system and established three different grades, the principal 
 sudder ameen, the sudder ameen, and the moonsiff ; gradually, that is, within 
 the course of about five or six years from that time, the original cognizance of 
 all suits was entrusted to those native judges, so that the covenanted civil judge 
 of the district had scarcely anything to do, exce])t to hear appeals from their 
 decisions ; 1 think that the cliange has been exceedingly popular ; Lord William 
 Bentinck's name, in conse(|uence of the employment which he thus afforded to 
 the natives, is held in the highest reverence by all classes of the natives, more 
 so, indeed, than that of any (J overnor- general we have ever had in the country, 
 and I think the administration of justice in their hands has generally given 
 satisfaction. 
 
 ■^!)'^'^. The grades of native judges are those which have been already stated; 
 are there anv changes with respect to them which you would suggest from 
 your experience r — I know of none in particular with regard to the native 
 judges ; they are obliged to follow the rule of procedure laid down for the civil 
 judge of the district, therefore any change that was made in the law of procedure 
 for liis court would immediately be applicable to the courts of the native judges. 
 I think the pay of the native judges is susceptible of increase ; the pay of the 
 lowest class, who have cognizance of more than 100,000 suits in the course of 
 the year, is very inadequate ; they have 100 rupees a month to begin with, and 
 then 150 rupees. I think the Government has been exceedingly anxious to 
 improve the character and the qualifications of the whole of this service ; it 
 obliges every moonsiff to pass a most rigid examination as to his knowledge of 
 the law, and the practice of the courts, before he is admitted upon the roll of 
 moonsiffs ; and subsequently, the Government always selects its officers for the 
 higher grades of sudder ameen, and principal sudder ameen, from those who 
 appear to be the most meritorious among the lower grades ; this has a very great 
 tendency to improve the character ot the whole of the native judicial bench. 
 
 .■5,534. The pay of the sudder ameens and of the principal sudder ameens is 
 higher in proportion than the pay of the moonsiffs, is not it ? — The pay of the 
 sudder ameen is 250 rupees a month ; that of the principal sudder ameen is 
 400 rupees to begin with, and a certain number of them receive 600 rupees 
 a niontli, which is the utmost limit they can attain ; and though they are at 
 liberty to receive and decide suits to an unlimited amount, so that the aggregate 
 value of the suits before the princii)al sudder ameens, I think, in the last year 
 amounted to several millions sterling, they only receive the small sum of (iOO 
 rupees a month, while a civil and sessions judge, who formerly had the same 
 descri])tion of suits to decide, receives more than four times that amount. 
 
 3.53.')- ^ ou think that the pay of the sudder anu^en and the })rin{;ipal sudder 
 ameen is likewise insufficient, as well as the pay of the moonsiff? — 1 think it is, 
 but more particularly the pay of the moonsiff, because the moonsiffs have to 
 decide so large a number of suits, and it is necessary, I think, to place them in 
 a jjositiou of greater independence, as it regards their allowances, than they 
 now enjoy. '1 iiey are held in very great estimation, generally, b}' their own 
 countrymen, and their decisions have given cousidei-able satisfaction ; 1 have 
 seen many decisions of the moonsiffs tliat would not do discredit to any judge of 
 the sudder ; and 1 know that many of them ])ri(le themselves ui)on exhil)iting 
 a thorough knowledge of the law and great legal acuteness in all theii- dcn-isions. 
 
 3.'53(». Do you think that the examination which the moonsifts at jjresent 
 undergo is sufficient, or would it be desirable to establish some legal college, 
 and render it compulsory upon a candidate for the oilice of moonsiff to pass 
 through that legal college ?— 1 do not think that the estabhshment of any law 
 college would improve their qualifications ; the Government have gratlually 
 raised the scale of qualifications, and 1 believe it is the intention of the Govern- 
 ment to continue to raise it as much as possible ; the office, I think, is held 
 in such estimation that they educate tliemselves quite enough for the situation 
 to which they are raised. 
 
 3537- Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 347 
 
 3.537- Is their position in societ}' respected ? — It is ver}' mwh rcsjjeetcd J. C. Marshmatu, 
 among the natives ; the principal sudder anieen in a district, although a native, ''''"i- 
 
 is always held by the comniuiiity at large, both rich and poor, in the highest " ~~~" 
 estimation. This post is considered the most honourable a man can attain to. * ^I*" "^^•*' 
 
 3538. A previous v.itness has mentioned that he thought it would be desira- 
 ble that vakeels should bi' ajj^oiiiti'd to the higher grades of judicial situations; 
 do you think that that would be desirable ?~I think it would be an advantage 
 if we could gradually reiuodcl the system, so that every man before he is ap- 
 pointed a moonsiif should have had some practice as a vakeel in the courts. 
 There is always this disadvantage connected with the present system, that a man 
 is a])i)ointed a moonsiff who has nothing but a theoretical knowledge of the law 
 and ])ractice of the court, whereas in this country a man is always euipli)\cd for 
 many years as a barrister before he is raised to the bench. Hut the vakeels are, 
 generally speaking, men of so inferior a (•hara(>ter, that the Government have not 
 been able, as yet, to intnxUu'e that im])r()vement. Arrangements have been made 
 for subjecting the vakeels to a strid examination before they are allowed to 
 practise in the courts ; and it is very probal)l(' that the Government will here- 
 after be enabled to ordain, that every man before he is raised to the post of 
 a moonsiff, shall have had several years' practice as a vakeel in the courts. The 
 rule now established in Bengal is, that no man is promoted to the office of 
 principal sucider ameen, who has not filled honourably, and for a sufficient length 
 of time, the office of sudder ameen ; and no man is appointed a sudder ameen 
 except from the inferior grade of moonsiffs. It cannot, therefore, be the indention 
 of the Government that vakeels should suddenly, without passing through 
 those grades, jump into the highest judicial office open to the natives, that of 
 principal sudder ameen. 
 
 3539. Do you think it desirable to leave those improvements to the discretion 
 of the Government, or would you by some enactment compel the Government 
 to carry them into effect r — I think they may be very safely left with t])e Go- 
 vernment of the country. For the last 12 or I.') years it has been an o!)ject of 
 the greatest anxiety with the Government to improve the whole body of the 
 native judicial servants, so as to increase the confidence of the natives of the 
 country in their decisions ; and I know that the subject is still under considera- 
 tion, and that there is a determination to make the examination more strict than 
 it ever has been, inasmuch as under the old system of examination, so many 
 individuals were declared to be qualified as moonsiff, that it was, perhaps, four 
 or five years before an individual could be appointed to the office, on the oc- 
 currence of a vacancy. The Government, therefore, are fully alive, as far as I 
 have had an opportunity of seeing tlie working of the system, to the importance 
 and the necessity of improving those native courts, and I think it may very 
 safely be left to its own sense of duty, more especially if the great desideratum, 
 namely, the appointment of a separate Governor of bengal, is provided for by 
 Act of Parliament. 
 
 3.540. It has been stated to the Committee that a vakeel in good practice 
 would not accept the situation of moonsift' ; do the Government api)oint vakeels 
 to be sudder ameens at once, without passing through the lower grade ? — They 
 may have done so some years ago, but I do not think a single individual has 
 recently been appointed to the situation of sunder ameen who lias not ])assed 
 through the previous grade of moonsiff. As regards the emoluments of the 
 vakeels, mariy of those in the Sudder Court of Calcutta receive such large 
 fees that it would not be worth their while to accept the office of civil 
 and session judge; I believe some of them make from 3,000 to 4,000 rupees a 
 month ; a vakeel in good practice in the Sudder Court may always calculate 
 upon an income of 500 or (300 rupees a month, which is fully equivalent to the 
 salary of principal sudder ameen, with the additional prospect of its constantly 
 increasing. 
 
 3541. Do the decisions of the native judges inspire perfect confidence as 
 regards their independence, their integrity, and tlie ui)rightness of their motives ? 
 —1 think, generally speaking, they do ; in the native conununity every 
 native has a mistrust of every other native ; they never manifest the least con- 
 fidence in each other, and the native judge is placed in a very invidious position ; 
 there are always persons enough ready to bring chai-ges against him ; but, 
 generally speaking, I think the native judges have acted with a degree of most 
 
 0.10. X X 2 commendable
 
 348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C Mars/twiin, commendable independence of the great men around them, and there are ex- 
 Esq. ceedingly few cases of their being chargeable with anything like venality. 
 
 3.542- Would you continue to render some appeal to a European covenanted 
 
 28 Apiil i8j3. judge necessary, and maintain the supervision of such a judge, or would you 
 make the decisions of the native judges final ? — I think it is indispensable that 
 there should be some apjieal to a European judge ; for, though the civil judge, 
 when he first comes to the post, is not sufficient!}' accpiainted with the law 
 and the practice of the courts, yet he has a degree of English independence 
 of feeling and a force of character which is very requisite in a district ; if there 
 were no such api)eal to a European judge, and if the suj)ervision of the whole 
 administration of justice in a district were left even to the very ablest native, 
 I think you would immediately lower the tone and general character of the 
 civil administration through the country ; you seem to require some one Euro- 
 pean mind in every district who shall have a genei-al control over the civil 
 administration, and this is the strongest objection that we have felt in India 
 to raising a native judge to the office of civil judge, and giving him the entire 
 management of the civil business of the district. 
 
 2543. In the i)ractice of the courts, would you recommend any change in the 
 language which is now used r — 1 am very much averse to anything like a change 
 from the system which has been recently established. When the British 
 Government first took possession of the country, or rather entered upon the 
 administration of it, Persian was the universal official language throughout 
 Bens;al. It was introduced bv the Mahomedans, because it was, in fact, their 
 own language : this continued for a ])eriod of more than 70 years. At length, 
 about the year 1834 or 1835, the Covernment abolished the use of Persian 
 throughout all the courts, and, after GOO years, restored to the natives tlie use of 
 their own vernacular language in the administration of their own affairs ; the 
 Hindostanee language or Oordu in the North-Western Provinces, and Bengalee 
 in the |)rovince of Bengal, which comprises a population of from 25 to 30 
 millions of people. This change has been extremely popuhir among the natives, 
 and has conduced more than anything else to the im]3rovement of the 
 administration of justice. I think, moreover, from what I know of the native 
 feeling upon the subject, that any attempt to deprive tlie natives of the use of 
 their own vernacular language, in the management of their own affairs, in the 
 civil or criminal or fiscal courts, would create so immense an outcry through- 
 out the country, that no wise Government would like to encounter it. The 
 natives consider, universally, that the purit}'of the administration of justice, on 
 the part of an European, dei)euds, in a great measure, upon his knowledge of 
 their own vernacular language ; and when a magistrate comes to a district the 
 very first inquiry made throughout the court, among the ministerial officers 
 and in the connnunity is, whether he is cpute familiar with their language : 
 so much so indeed that, although Hindostanee is generall}' spoken by almost 
 all the officers of the courts, yet the natives themselves always distinguish 
 between a magistrate in Bengal who can speak only Hindostanee, and one who 
 is able to speak their own vernacular language. And the magistrates themselves 
 are so fully aware of this f.-ict, that 1 have known many instances in which a. 
 magistrate, who was tlioroughly master of Bengalee, has inflicted a fine upon 
 every man who ventured to address him in Hindostanee, because it had a 
 natural tendency to mvstify c verythingwhich was going on in court and ]n-evented 
 those around from really understanding the proceedings. I should also mention 
 that I do not think you have a sufficient number of native judicial officers in the 
 country ac(iuainte(I witli English to c:irry on the business of the courts in that 
 language. Thrrc are many districts in Bengal, I might say there are at least half 
 a dozen, where you will not find 20 natives able to tmderstand Englisli, and 
 although a knowledge of English has spread very much within the last 'JO years, 
 under the cftorts which have been made by the (iovernment and i)y the missiona- 
 ries in the establishment of schools and colleges, still it is a foreign language to 
 the general l-.odv of the people. It has taken, and it occu])ies precisely the posi- 
 tion Vthirh Persian formerly (lid. It is the language of the rulers of the country, 
 and a man aecjuires a degree of dignity in his own eyes, and in the opinion of 
 the connnunity around him, if he is enabled to address them in their own lan- 
 guage. 1 think, in this country, you would find five times as many well edu- 
 cated nu'n thoroughly acquainted with French, as you would find natives who 
 are well acquainted with Faiglish in Bengal. The Committee can easily judge, 
 
 by
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 349 
 
 by parity of rfasonins:, Imw unpalatable it would be to impose the use of Norman /. C Mfinhman, 
 Frencii in the courts of tliis country. I n;ade particular inquirifs l)etore 1 Ictt '-'^l- 
 
 the country, of those who liave the superintendence of our educational institu- ~ 
 tions in and al)out Calcutta, and they assured me that they did not believe there ^ ' '"' ' ^^' 
 could be found at this time, after 25 years of EiiL^lish education, and thouLcli 
 there are 10,000 young men at the present time studying English in and alioiit 
 Calcutta, 500 men, scarcely even 800, who had such a knowledge of English 
 as to be able to form a clear decision upon a case, from the address of 
 the counsel, and the evidence of the witnesses, and the charge of th(! judge, 
 given in English. You have not, therefore, at present, the materials for intro- 
 ducing English as the language of the courts. It would, in fact, be going bake 
 to such a degree, that it may be said to be almost impossible ; it is almost as 
 impossil)le as you would feel it to be in this country to abolish railways and 
 revert to the old system of stage and mail coaches. 
 
 3544. Your opinion would not be favourable to appointing as judges in the 
 Company's courts, barristers ])ractising in England, without a previous resi- 
 dence in India ? — No ; I do not think it would be at all popular with the 
 people, or that it would in any measure conduce to the ends of justice. Those 
 who have been trained to the bar in this country are rather too fond of the 
 technicalities of the English law, and our business in India now is to retrace 
 our steps, and render the law as simple as possible. A barrister going from 
 this country must be a stranger to the habits, to the language, and to the 
 feelings and prejudices of the people. A knowledge of the people must, in a 
 great measure, enter into the administration of justice : at present, whatever 
 may be the deficiencies of the Company's civil judges when they are first 
 placed upon the bench, they still come to that post after they have been Hving 
 and acting among the people for 20 years ; but if you appoint a barrister fresh 
 from England, he must come among the people as a perfect stranger, and I 
 cannot think such an appointment would at all conduce to inspire contidence 
 in the natives, or imjjrove the administration of justice. 
 
 3.545. You said just now that the object was to retrace our steps, as regards 
 the judicial system ; will you explain what you mean by that expression ? — To 
 get rid of as much of the technicalities of our system of law as possible, and to 
 reduce it to a state of greater simplicity ; as I mentioned in my evidence the 
 day before, our object should be to assimilate it as nearly as possible to the 
 system which now prevails in the county courts in England, and to the system 
 which we have established in Calcutta, in the small cause courts, and in our 
 non-regulation provinces, more especially in the Punjaub. In the Punjaub, 
 although it has been in our possession only about three or four yeai's, 
 the Board have been enabled to establish a system of civil law, the rules 
 of which are comprised in about 15 foolscap pages, which gives universal 
 satisfaction to the people ; and amongst the most essential of those regulations 
 is the exclusion of all vakeels, except when the judge thinks them to be 
 necessary. 
 
 354*). Mr. Hume.] What regulations are those to which you refer? — They 
 are the rules which have been drawn by the Board of Administration, in the 
 Punjaub, for the administration of civil justice. 
 
 3547. Chairman.] You have given the Committee your opinion as to the 
 independence of the native judges ; what is your ojjinion of the independence 
 of th(> European covenanted judges ? — I think from all I could learn in the 
 country, that their independence of the Government is perfectly exemplary. 
 Every man is at liberty at any time to institute a suit against the Government ; 
 in fact tliere are always hundreds of such suits, and perhaps even a greater 
 number, upon the board. No man is deteri*ed from instituting a suit against 
 the Government, against a collector, or against any of the Government officers, 
 from the apprehension that the judge, in consequence of being a servant of the 
 Government, will decide in its favour. 
 
 3548. When a suit is brought against any collector or official servant of the 
 Company, are these suits tried by courts perfectly competent to form a just 
 opinion, and independent in their judgment r — Suits brought against a collector 
 in his official capacity are tried by the regular civil courts. The collector is 
 there treated as the representative of the Government, and it is a suit against 
 the Government, and is brought according to the regulations in the courts of the 
 country; but the Government have appointed an officer called the superintendent 
 
 0.10. X X •^ of
 
 350 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEl'ORE THE 
 
 /. <J. Marshman. of such suits, and the legal remembrancer to whom every such suit is referred, 
 ^*1- and it is his business to examine whether there is anj^ ground for the Govern- 
 
 '^ : ment defending the suit. If he finds that there is no sufficient ground for 
 
 ■j.h . pri. t8,-;3. j^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ Government is Hkely to be cast, he recommends to the superior 
 authorities to compromise the matter, or to settle it with the plaintiff. But I 
 think, in all such cases the people of the country have the fullest confidence that 
 the civil judge vfHI act perfectly independent of the Government. I should 
 mention that in some of the petitions, which may possibly have been sent 
 home to this countr)% assertions have been made that the civil judges, dependent 
 as they are upon the Government for their promotion, are necessarily partial in 
 their decisions, but the parties have not been able to adduce any case which 
 clearly supported sucli an assertion. Tijey have cited, perhaps, one or two 
 instances in the last 25 years, but the most important case upon which 
 they rely is, that which can scarcely be considered as bearing at all upon it ; it 
 was the determination of Mr. Courtenay Smith, one of the judges of 
 the Sudder, just before the last charter; when a promissory note of the Govern- 
 ment was presented as a deposit, he refused to receive it ; he said it was a 
 mere promissory note of a chartered body, whose privileges would expire in 
 two or three years, and it could not be considered of any real value. The 
 Government found that this decision struck at the root of all public credit, and 
 I think they visited Mr. Smith with their displeasure. 
 
 3549. Have these suits against the Government been instituted in the courts 
 of the principal sudder ameens as well as in the courts in which the covenanted 
 judges })reside r — I think they would be instituted also in the courts of the 
 native judges. 
 
 35.50. Supposing an action is bro.ight against a native judge, for misbehaviour 
 of some kind, is that action tried before judges who are quite competent to 
 understand the case, and to give a fair decision ? — There have been very 
 few instances of the kinil ; I believe that in all such cases the Government 
 would institute a particular inquiry whether there is any ground for such a 
 proceeding. I do not at this moment recollect any case of the kind, which 
 would enable me to give the Committee an answer as to the practice of the 
 Government in that I'espect. 
 
 3551. Mr. Elliot.] In any case in which the Government is either plaintiff 
 or defendant, does the Government stand in any position whatever which is 
 more favourable to itself than an individual would stand in, if he happened 
 to be plaintiff or defendant ? -Not in the smallest degree ; on the contrary, the 
 legal remembrancer used to observe that nothing was more difficult than to get 
 a decision in favour of the Government, and that if there was any leaning 
 whatever on the part of the covenanted judges, it was invariably rather against 
 the Government than in its favour. 
 
 3552. Mr. IJ117/U'.] Does the Government j)ay costs in the same way as 
 individuals do in all cases ? — Costs are paid by the Government. 
 
 3'>.')3- Chairuuin.] W hat is the general opinion with regard to appeals from 
 the civil courts in India to the Privy Council ?— I think there has often been 
 some dissatisfaction felt in India by the natives, as well as by Europeans, 
 that they should he vnider the necessity of a\)])ealing cases to such a distance. 
 The}- have sometimes expressed a wish that some tribuntd should be constructed 
 u])on the spot, to which those appeals which are now sent to the Privy ' ouncil 
 might be referred ; but I do not think there are any elements for the con- 
 struction of such a tribunal. The only body to whom you could refer it would 
 be the Executive or the Legislative Council. But it would be manifestly im])roper 
 for those who are charged with the duty of legislation to interfere in the 
 administration of justice, and as it regards the Executive Council, they have 
 no time for it. Formerly, that is, for 20 or 30 years after we took possession 
 of the country, the Governoi'-general, and the Members of the Council, 
 constituted tlie Sudder Court, and heard appeals ; but Lord Wellcsley, 
 about 1802. found it utterly incompatible with his othcial duties, and placed 
 the Sudder Court upon its present footing. There is therefore no body of men 
 in India to whom you could refi r those cases, and I think it would be dis- 
 advantageous to break the link which now connects the natives of India with 
 this country, through the medium of appeals 
 
 3.').)4- What is the value of the cases in which the right of appeal can be 
 exercised '/—Formerly the value was placed at 5,000/. sterling, but it was subse- 
 quently
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 351 
 
 quently reduced to 1,000/. About 10 years ago an Act of Parliament wa^ passed 
 directing the Court of Directors to carry on such suits at the public expense, 
 when parties neglected to pursue them, and to look for reimbursement to 
 the parties after the case was decided ; there was a .very strong, and I think a 
 just objection raised to this in India, and it was considered that the ))ul)lic 
 revenues ought not to be burdened with the expenses of private individuals. 
 After about 130,000/. sterling had thus been sacrificed, the Act was repealed, 
 and every man is now left to carry on his suit from his own resources. 
 
 3555. Do you recollect during what period that 130,000/. was spent? — I 
 think it must have been during a period of 12 or 13 years. 
 
 3556. Have you any suggestion to make regarding those appeals ?---! would 
 suggest that as you always have one of the judges of the Crown courts of India, 
 sitting as assessor in the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and as fully 
 one half and perhajis more than half the cases of appeal come from the ( om- 
 pany's courts, and are connected with questions of Hindoo law, halnts, man- 
 ners and usages, it would be a very gieat advantage to have also one of the 
 most eminent of the retired judges of the Company's Sudder Courts as assessor 
 with the Privy Council, who should occupy the same position which the judge 
 of the Crown Court now occupies. Some of the decisions that have lately been 
 passed by the Privy Council have appeared in India to be rather anomalous ; 
 this anomaly has generally been attributed to the absence of any one indivi- 
 dual in that tribunal thoroughly acquainted with the law and practice of India, 
 and the habits and feelings of the people. 
 
 3.557. What is the present state of the pohce in Bengal?— The state of the 
 police in Bengal is unfortunately very unsatisfactory; it is perhaps the worst 
 part of our admininistration ; there is very little security to property, and those 
 who commit depredations are very seldom apprehended and punished. 
 
 3558. It contrasts unfavourably with the poUce in the Piinjaub? -Yes, exceed- 
 ingly so ; the police in the North-Western Provinces is, on the contrary, admi- 
 rable ; it is considered almost the best part of Mr. Thomason's administration, 
 and in the Punjaub, though it has been for so short a time in our possession, 
 the police has been placed upon the most satisfactory footing, and although 
 there are from 30,000 to 40,000 disbanded soldiers abroad in the Punjaub, 
 there has not been a single decoity committed in it for 12 or 15 months past. 
 
 Sf^Sg. Is the police in the Punjaulo a military poUce r — It is not altogether a 
 military police, though I believe there is a military police in the country ; I 
 think the Government depends on the civil police , but it is not attributable to 
 the existence of this miUtary pohce, which has i-ather military duties to perform 
 in a country recently conquered, than the duties of a criminal pohce. 
 
 3560. Mr. Ellice.'] Does not the difficulty of the pohce in the Lower Pro- 
 vinces arise more from the character of the people ; must it not be more easy 
 to establish a good police in the North-Western Provinces than in the Lower 
 Provinces ?—l tliink the inefficiency of the pohce in Bengal arises to a consi- 
 derable degree from the character of the people ; they never can be roused to 
 protect themselves ; they submit to the exactions and to the oppressions of 
 decoits and of pubhc officers almost without a complaint. 1 may mention, that 
 having been very recently in communication with some of the magistrates in 
 the North-W^estern Provinces, and having explained to them the inetHciency of 
 the police and the exactions of the police officers in the Lower Provinces, and 
 inquired of them how it happened that nothing of the kind was exhibited iu 
 the North-W'est, they said it arose in a great measure from the superior spirit 
 of independence of the ])eople, and that if a darogah or a tehsildar were to 
 make of any body of men the same demand in the North-W estern Provinces 
 which were made every day in Bengal, he would have his head broken imme- 
 diately. 
 
 3561. Chairman.'] Is not the inefficiency of the pohce in Bengal Proper in 
 some measure to be attributed to the youth of the magistrates? — About 16 or 
 1 8 years ago the offices of collector and magistrate in Bengal were separated, 
 and from that time the magistrates have, generally, been men of great youth 
 and inexperience ; we frequently find a magistrate entrusted with the adminis- 
 tration of a district containing a million of people, when he is only 25 or 26 
 years old, and although in many cases the magistrates have acted with a great 
 deal of prudence, and judgment, and energy, yet their extreme youth does to 
 
 0.10. X X 4 a considerable 
 
 /. 6'. islarihnutit, 
 Esq. 
 
 28 April 1853.
 
 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. C. Manlimau, a considerable degree impair the confidence of the people in the operations of 
 Esq. the police, and it rather impairs its efficiency. 
 
 _ 3)02. Are decoities very frequent in Bengal r —Very much so ; more especially 
 
 28 April J 853. in the districts immediateiy round the Presidency ; there used not to be, and 
 perhaps at the present time there is scarcely a night in which there are not two, 
 three, or four decoities perpetrated, and they are almost always committed with 
 impunity. ']'\vo or three years ago the magistrates, in five or six of the districts 
 around ( alcutta. were obliged to confess that no man possessed of property to 
 the value of 20 /. or 30 /. could retire to rest with a certainty of not being 
 plundered of it by the decoits before the morning. There is, therefore, a very 
 great insecurity of property, and property is felt to be exceedingly insecure by 
 the natives themselves in the districts around Calcutta. 
 
 3.")'^'3- What distance from Calcutta would your observation comprise? — It 
 would comprise a circle, say of 70 miles round Calcutta. 
 
 3.)n4. By whom are the decoities committed ? — They are committed by 
 organized bands, under the direction of very able, experienced, and unscru- 
 pulous leaders. There are, perhaps, at the present time, or there were till 
 lately, 20 or 30 of such sirdar decoits in Bengal, who had a large number of 
 l)eople under them, whose services they could always command upon every 
 occasion. They had their scouts out in every direction, seeking out some man 
 of wealth, or who was in possession of some property, whom they could plunder 
 with impunity. As soon as information was given to the leader, he sent word 
 to his own gang to assemble with their weapons at a certain rendezvous. They 
 came from different parts perfectly unobserved, and when they had arrived, 
 having pre\ iously received a full account of the premises, the plan of the expedi- 
 tion for the night was explained to them ; each man had his own part assigned 
 to him in it, and then they set out and fell upon the house, and generally 
 plundered it of everything. 
 
 3565. Mr. Hmne.^ Where do you obtain the information which you have 
 given to the Committee on this subject ? — From what passed continually under 
 mj' own eye, in and around Calcutta and Serampore. 
 
 3.566. Chairman.] How long has this state of things existed ? — Decoity is the 
 normal crime of Bengal, especially of the Lower Provinces. 
 
 3567. Uo you mean that it has always existed in the country ': — As far as 
 w^e have any knowledge, it has always existed. 
 
 3568. Has it increased of late years? — It fluctuates with the vigorous efforts 
 of the Government to put it down. 
 
 3,)69. Mr. Mangles.'] Was not it much worse 40 years ago, in the time of 
 Mr. I'.Uiot r — About 40 years ago the system had readied such a state of per- 
 fection that the Government were obliged to employ Mr. Elliot and the well 
 known Dr. Leyden, to go into the disturbed districts, and the most stringent 
 measures were ado])ted, and the district of Kishnaghur, in particular, was 
 almost cleared from decoits, but the crime has now revived again. 
 
 3.570. Was not there as great an outcry then raised against the too great 
 vigour of the Government as now against their supinoness : — We had no free 
 press then, and I cannot say. With regard to decoity, I have said that it is 
 the normal crime of Bengal ; it was always the great difficulty of the Mahome- 
 dan Government, and it has been our great difficulty too. The Mahomedan 
 Government employed the most stringent, and almost unconstitutional means 
 for the repression of decoity. We have a clear account of the mode in which 
 the Mahomedan (jovernment jjroceeded, in a minute of Warren Hastings in 
 1774, when decoity had become very rife in Bengal, and when he recom- 
 men(lcd, in order to put it down, that every decoit who was seized should be 
 huni? up in his own native vilUige, and that the whole of his family should be 
 sold as slaves. 
 
 3.571. Have you that minute with you ? — I iiave made an extract from the 
 minute of Wiirren Hastings, which describes the mode which the Mahomedan 
 Government adopted to put down these decoits ; he says, " The chiefs of these 
 banditti are generally as well known to be such as if they were invested with a 
 legal and ])ul)lic authority for the command which they exercise, yet it would 
 be scarcely possible to prove any direct fact against them, on which they could 
 be condemned ; and I have heard the names of some who have been taken up 
 and examined on the notoriety of tlicir character, but have been ac(iuitte(l and 
 released for want of evidence against them. With such offenders, tlie autho- 
 rized
 
 vv 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAIS' TERHITOKIES. 353 
 
 rizcd practice of the former (ioveriiiiieut has ever been to asei^rtuin the i(lentit\- J- C. MaiJim.m, 
 of the men, and so eondenni them without waiting for further process to csta- ''*'!• 
 
 blisU any spicitie charge auainst them. I know to what 1 expose myself bv ~. 
 
 reeoinmending a praetit;e so rejjugnant to the equity and tenderness of our own " ■*'"" ^^^^' 
 constitution ; bur, from a principle superior to every consideration whi(;li may 
 affect myself, I venture to declare, that mdess this Guvernment adopts the same 
 summary mode of proceeding in such cases as 1 have described, 1 sec no ))roba- 
 bility of freeing this country from the worst species of oppression, or restoring 
 it to security and order. A rigid observance of the letter of the law is a bless- 
 ing in a well-regulated state ; but in a go\ ernment loose as that of Bengal is, 
 and must be for some years to come, an exti'aordinary and exemi)lary coercion 
 must be employed to vindicate those evils which the law cannot reach." 
 
 3.57U'. Is there any law now in force sp;x"ia]ly applicable to the suppression 
 of dceoities .' — I should state that the reconimeudation of Warren Hastings at the 
 time was not adopted by his Council, which then consisted of Mr. Francis and 
 his bitterest enemies ; subsequently, when the Government became aware of 
 the extensive ramification of the Thuggee association, and of the injury which 
 it was inflicting upon the countr}', it was found necessary to enact a law pre- 
 cisely (if that nature for the suppression of this crime, so that any man who was 
 convicted of having belonged to a gang of 'J'hugs might be conde{nned uj)on 
 the evidence of that circumstance, and transported. 
 
 3573. 'Mv. Lahoiicherc.~] When was that law enacted r — I tiiink l.'i or 1(> 
 years ago, just at the time when Colonel Sleeuia.n's operations against the Thugs 
 began. 
 
 3,-,74. Was that law confined to any particular district of the countrv, or v,as 
 it a general law r — It was a general law, because they seized Tiitigs throughout 
 the whole of India; tiiey were very often pursued down to Hydrabad, 1,00(J 
 miles from the scat of the Bengal Goverment, it was therefoi'e a general law, 
 applicable to the whole of India, but applicable to the case exclusi\ely of 
 Thugs. 
 
 3-,75. Has that law been effective for the purposes for which it was enacted r 
 — Completely so. 
 
 3,j76. Is it in force now .' — It is still in force ; the Government have suc- 
 ceeded in almost entirely eradicating the crime of Thuggee. About nine years 
 ago, some of the officers in the Xorth-western Prtn-inces, who had to deal with 
 professional decoits, especially those on the borders of Oude, requested the 
 Government to enact the same law for the suppression of those decoits ; that 
 is, of the decoits who belonged to certain tribes of professional plunderers ; 
 this law was passed chiefly in reference to the North-western Provinces, and to 
 those provinces wiiich bordered upon Oude. As decoities increased in Bengal, 
 it was suggested that this lav,- might be made applicaljle also for the suppres- 
 sion of decoities in the Lower Provinces, and for the punishment of the 
 decoits ; but the Sudder Court, at least several of its judges, held, that as 
 the decoits of Bengal did not belong to the particular tribes to which this 
 Act evidently had allusion, it could not be m.ade applicable to Bengal. But 
 in October last the case was brought formally before a full Sudder Bench ; it 
 was argued for a whole day, and the majority of the Sudder judges then 
 decided that tlie decoits of Lower Bengal could be convicted under this Act, 
 and that the courts would be autliorised, if it was proved that the deceit had 
 belonged to a gang, to eondenni him immediately to transportation. 
 
 3;')77. C/iarniia.'i.] Without any jiroof that he bad himself connnitted the 
 act of decoity '! — Without that proof. 
 
 3.578. Has that been acted on: — Yes. 
 
 3579. Viscount Jon'li/n.] Has not the system of approvers been one means 
 b}' wliich the Government lias carried out its measures against the Thugs? — 
 Almost entirely through the medium of approvers. 
 
 3.'58o. Has that system been tried with the decoits? — It had only begun to 
 be tried when I left the country. 
 
 3581. Do you imagine that it will have the same effect as it had in the ease 
 of the Thugs? — I think it will ; but I should mention that the depredations 
 of the decoits became so formidable, and property became so utterly insecure 
 in the districts around Coleutta, — in some cases the decoits actually came in 
 bodies of 40 and 50 with their torches, and entered into a house, plundered it 
 of everything, and then moved off" in triumph — that the Government last year 
 
 0. : 0. Y Y found
 
 3.54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 7 C. Marshman, found it necessary to adopt additional measures for the suppression of decoity, 
 £sq- and they therefore appointed an officer for this exclusive duty ; he was styled 
 
 ; the Commissioner for the suppression of decoity. They made selection of Mr. 
 
 as April 1853. Wauchope, a magistrate, and one of the most able and energetic officers in 
 the Lower Provinces, and a man perhaps more thoroughly acquainted with 
 the habits and character of the people and the state of crime than almost 
 any other. Mr. Waucho])e was appointed, I think, in April or May last ; he 
 immediately set to work, and obtained a large mass of information regarding;' the 
 plans and the practices of those decoits ; he persuaded some of them to turn 
 approvers ; some even of the leadei's of the decoits turned approvers, and 
 confessed to having been engaged in no l^ss than 30 decoities, in not one of 
 which had they ever been detected or seized by the police. Mr. Wauchope's 
 energetic measures threw the whole of the decoity community throughout 
 Bengal into such a state of dismay, that his exertions in the course of two or 
 three months almost restored peace and tranquillity to that part of the country. 
 In some of the districts round Calcutta, whei'e there had not been a single night 
 without two or thi*ee decoities, a whole month passed over without one ; and 
 there is every reason to believe that his exertions, or, as he is coming home 
 to this country in ill-health, those of the gentleman who will succeed him, with 
 the aid of this interpretation which the Sudder Court has put upon the law, 
 will enable the Government entirely to eradicate the crime. In fact, as soon 
 as it was known that the Government had determined to take the tield ai>:aiust 
 these organised bands, in earnest, and to punish them, the crime immediately 
 began to diminish. 
 
 3.582. Mr. Elliot.] You referred in the beginning of your evidence on this 
 subject to the youth of the magistrates, as one cause for the continuance of the 
 crime of decoity to the extent to which it now exists? — I do not think I 
 referred to the extent of the crime of decoity as having been caused by that, 
 but I said that the youth of the magistrates, who are called " boy magistrates" 
 by the natives, from there being many of them under 25 years old, certainly was 
 one cause of the inefficiency of the police in the Lower Pi'ovinces, and that the 
 natives have not the same confidence in them that they would have in men of 
 greater experience. 
 
 35S3. About 40 years ago the offices of judge and of magistrate were united 
 in the same person ? — Yes. 
 
 3.5S4. They were then old servants, but did not similar irregularities take 
 place then to those which take place now? — I think the crime of decoity has 
 increased, within the last six or seven years, to an extent that is almost un- 
 paralleled imd perfectly insupportable. One magistrate, whom I have now iu 
 my mind, was on a tour in the last cold weather when there were no fewer 
 than six decoities c ommitted within three miles of his encampment, in the 
 course of a single week. I do not think decoities have increased in conse- 
 quence of the youth of the magistrates, but I think, generally, the administra- 
 ^ tion of criminal justice has not been improved, but has rather deteriorated, 
 
 through their youth and inexperience. Tiiere are also some other causes, which 
 I might mention, which have conduced to that state of things. 
 
 3,58.5. Mr. Mangles.] The decoits are not so ferocious as they were, are 
 they r — No ; they almost always abstain now from putting any one to death, 
 or inflicting anvthing like torture. 
 
 3.586. Formerly they were commonly attended with death and with torture, 
 were not they ? — Yes, they were ; one decoit, who confessed to 3,5 crimes, said 
 that in only two or three cases had he resorted to torture, ami tliose were 
 cases in which the parties refused to discover their wealth. 
 
 3.587. Chairman.] Should yon think it desirable for the purposes of jjolice to 
 reunite the offices of collector and magistrate'^ — 1 think the voice of the country 
 universally calls for the reunion of the two offices. In the North-western Pro- 
 vinces, the office ol" collector and magistrate is united ; it is so also at Bombay, 
 and I think at Madras, 'ihe union of these two offices is generally believed 
 by the people in Bengal, both natives and Europeans, to be one of the mea- 
 sures which would (;onduce to grer.t improvement in the police of tin; country 
 and the administration of justice. The collector is brought in contact with all 
 classes of poojile. As the collector of the Government rent, lie is in intercourse 
 witli all the zemindnrsof his own district ; he has the cognizance of all summary 
 suits regarding exactions of rent ; he decides all the complaints of the agricul- 
 tural
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 3,55 
 
 tural community. He is, therefore, fully acquainted with all classes of natives j. c. Marshnmr.. 
 in his own district. It appears natural, therefore, that he should be intrusted Esq. 
 
 with the charge of the jjolice. In that case, you would have the present magis- [ 
 
 tratcs as his assistants, and in the collector you would have an older and more -^ ■'^1'"' '^53- 
 experienced man ; and I think, generally, throughout the country, the natives 
 would have more confidence in the administration of criminal justice, and it 
 would be abundantly improved. In that case, many of tliosc appeals which are 
 now made from the magistrate to the civil and sessions judge might be alto 
 gether dispensed with, for those appeals are a source of very gi-eat inconve- 
 nience, and in some measure tend to keep the police in the state in which 
 it is. 
 
 35S8. Mr. Hume.'] Are the Committee to understand that you would recom- 
 mend that in Bengal the same system should be re-established as is now estab- 
 lislied in the North-western Provinces ? — Precisely the same ; the union of the 
 office of magistrate and collector. 
 
 3.589. CItamnan.'] Are there any other observations which you would wish to 
 make respecting the inefficiency of the police ? — I think the constant appeals 
 from the magistrate to the sessions judge is a cause of very considerable 
 mischief ; almost every order tliat the magistrate passes is open to an appeal to 
 the sessions judge, and, unfortunately, when the sessions judge and the magis- 
 ti'ate happen to be at variance with each other every order is regularly appealed ; 
 the man goes round the corner, and submits an appeal to the sessions judge, 
 against the order which the magistrate has just passed, and, in most cases, the 
 order is reversed. The natives are very sharp to detect this discoi*d between 
 the two powers, and they always endeavour, if possible, to widen it, and to turn 
 it to their own advantage. On the other hand, where the judge and the magis- 
 trate happen to be on the very best terms, the appeal is almost a farce ; but in 
 both cases the interests of the country suffer. I think, therefore, that if you 
 were to appoint a collector, who is an older and more experienced man, as 
 magistrate to a distiict, and dispense with a number of those appeals, the 
 administration of criminal justice would be very much improved. 
 
 3 ,",90. Are the public establishments equal to cope with crime r — Xo ; I think 
 another cause of the inefficiency of our police, and of the deplorable state of 
 the country, is the inadequacy of our public establishments to cope with crime. 
 You have in Bengal, among a population of between 25,000,000 and 30^000,000 
 of people, one superintendent of police and 35 or 3G magistrates, and about 
 400 darogahs of i.olice, with a regular constabulary force of about 10,000 men ; 
 I am not certain of the number, but I think they amount to only 10,000 men. 
 This is the whole of the regular police of the country, and I do not think the 
 establishment is equal to the repression or the detection of crime. There i? 
 another body, a large force, consisting of the village chowkeydars, who are 
 totally dissociated from the general police of the country ; this is acknowledged 
 by all the officers of Government to be one of the great causes of their inalnlity 
 to deal vvith crime effectively. 
 
 3591. What is the number and position of the body of the men you have last 
 spoken of? — The number of village chowkeydars throughout Bengal and Bahar 
 is reckoned to be from 160,000 to 180,000 ; those men are always very inade- 
 cjuately paid; I do not suppose that one-half of them receive more than 3.y. a 
 month, and this sum is paid to them without any kind of pvmctunlity ; the 
 consequence is, that they are obliged to eke out their allowances by conniving 
 at crime. 
 
 3592. By whom are they paid?— It is very difficult to say by whom i^hey are 
 paid, because that is altogether an undefined question ; in some instances they 
 are paid by a village cess, in other cases by the zemindar or landholder ; there 
 are scarcely any two villages in which the sauie rule prevails ; they are not only 
 inadequately paid, but even the appointment of chowkeydar is very uncertain. 
 Nothing can be more loose than the whole system : in some cases the villagers 
 themselves appoint the chowkeydars, in other cases the zemindars appoint 
 them. On a recent occasion the question was brought before the Government, 
 particularly by one zemindar, a very able man, residing within five or six miles 
 of Calcutta ; he was ordered by the magistrate to fill up those vacaiicies, which 
 he refused to do, and was fined ; he refused to })ay the fine. The question 
 was thus brought under the cognizance of the Government, when it was fovnid 
 
 0.10. Y Y 2 that
 
 JO 
 
 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. r. Mc >:•>/■ wail, that tlicre was absolutely no law which could comjx'l the zPinindai", or the 
 
 Ks<i. villaii;ers, to fill up the offic(\ when it became vacant. 
 
 "[ '. .'>59;j- ^ii'- Muitffles.'l You said that, for the last Vl or 1.') years, it had been 
 
 ' " ^^3- a great object with the Government to improve the judicial administration ; was 
 
 not that equall}- the object of Lord V»'illiam Bentinck. Sir Charles Metcalfe, 
 
 and Lord Auckland? — Loi'd Auckland's (iovernmeut is within tliat period; 
 
 Lord WiUiam Bentinck, in 1829 and 1830, introduced the present system of 
 
 native judicial ofHcers ; he beqiu^athinl it to his successor. Lord xA^uckland. 
 
 Dui-ina; the period of Lord Auckland's tiovernment, and, in fact, from the 
 
 time that Lord William Bentinck established it, there has l)een a constant 
 
 effort on the part of the Government to imjirove it. I more particulariv 
 
 alluded to the last 15 years, as beiuii,- tlic date within v>hich higher powers were 
 
 given to the jn-incipal svulder ameens. 
 
 3594. Sir T. II. Maddorli?^ The salar\' of the principal sudder ameen being 
 GOO rupees a month, and that of the sessions judge being 2,500 rupees, in what 
 proportion do you think they woidd be properly paid rather than by the 
 present proportion ? — 1 think there must be always a distinc'tion kept up l^etueen 
 the pay of the natives in the countrv and that of the covenanted civil servants ; 
 I cannot exactU' fix ui)on anv specific sum, but I think the disproportion of (500 
 rupees to 2,500 rupees is too great ; we have always thought the sabuy of the 
 j)rincipal sudder ameens might be raised up to 900 rupees a month, or, if pos- 
 sible, eventually to 1,000 rupees. 
 
 Charles Marriott Caldecott, Esq., called in ; and I'xamined. 
 
 C, .1/. Culdecoit, 3595- Chairman.'] WILL yow state to the Committee the period during 
 Esq. which you were in India, and what situations you tilled there ? — I left Hailey- 
 
 " ~- bin-y in June 1826 ; I passed the college at Cak^utta in February 182" ; I began 
 
 vrork as assistant to the magistrate of Allahabad in June 1827 "• was made acting- 
 register of the civil court in October 1827: was made acting magistrate of 
 Allahabad in March 1829; add'ed on Settlement duties at the end of 1829; 
 remained there to the 10th of June 1833, wlien Lord WiUiam Bentinck sent 
 me to Cawnpore as magistrate; in 1835, IMr. Blount made me collector and 
 magistrate at Saharunpore, but retained my services at Cawnpore ; 1 returned 
 home on furlough at the end of 1836 ; I went out again at the end of 1841, 
 and was immediatelv sent back to Cawnpore by Mr. Rol)ertson ; in the l^egin- 
 ning of 1843, Lord Ellenborough sent me down to the Saugor and Nerbudda 
 territories to re-organize the civil and criminal judicial courts there ; I came 
 home at the end of 1845 in consequence of ill liealth. and resigned the service. 
 
 35g(i. The information Vvhich you can give the Committee will be with 
 respect to the administration of justice in the Non-re-iulatiou Provinces .' — I can 
 give sonic information as to th(> Regulation Provinces as well. Tlie Saugor and 
 Nerbudda territories were regulation as regarded criminal matters, and non- 
 regulation as regarded civil matters. I was called civil and sessions judse 
 ther;-. 
 
 'M')9~- ^Vill you describe what system you r.dministered there, and what 
 opinion vou entertain respecting it .' — In criminal matters we were subject to 
 the regidatioiis ; but owing to its being a very extensive country, there being 
 seven districts tiierc, it was impossible to hold the usual monthly sessions of the 
 •Sessions judge, and cases up to seven years' imi)risohnu'Ui might be decided by 
 me upon the report of the magistrates of the difi'ercnt districts. 1 also liad 
 some extra powers respecting reducing or increasing the punishment without 
 n^ference to \\\v Sudder Court at Agra. There were seven district officers who 
 had the jjower of magistrates, and ihey sent their cases up to me. 1 supervised 
 those districts as an ordinary sessions judge of the Regulation Provinces. 
 I went my cirtruit at the end of the year. There were 710 miles tn march, and 
 1 could imt march above 10 miles a day, in consequence of the i);uhie-s of the 
 roads. The circuit lasted four months. 
 
 3,'',qS. What was the system ])ursued in (nvil matters r — I may, ])erha])s, tir.-^t 
 state what system i found existing there. When I went there, 1 was called 
 civil judge, but I was at the head of the civil department, not subject to :uiv 
 regulations, but onlv to the (iovernor-general h.imself. 1 found 25 pergunnali 
 courts existing there. Those courts were at the stations of the three principal 
 
 grades
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TRURITORIES. 357 
 
 grades of revenue officers, the tehsildar, the sub-ieh.sihl;ir. and the /iUididar. 'iluy <^- -V. Caldecoii, 
 were composed of one revenue officer, of whichever of those i^rades lie uiight be, '"''''• 
 
 and four assessors. He was the official i)resident, and hv had four assessor^, ^^ ^^^^.^ ^^ 
 whom the parties had to choose from a list of 12 sjiven in b} eaeli party. They " * ' ""' ' 
 had cognizance of suits up to 400 rupees, of all descriptions, the liuiitation 
 being 12 years. The president was renuvnerated b)- an institution fee of three 
 per cent, upon the amount of the claim, which \vas paid to him at the time of 
 filing the written plaint. The defendant was summoned upon that plaint, and 
 if he confessed the ])laint, there was a decree given at once, and no jury called. 
 If he denied, the four assessors were called, and the case was gone into : but 
 those courts could not execute their own decrees when they had made them ; 
 they were not allowed to execute tliem : they were; executed, in the first 
 instance, by the European officer of the district, who was called then the 
 principal assistant. Those ])ergunnah courts were instituted b}' Mr. Smith in 
 1831. In 183G it was found that those courts did not entirely answer; some- 
 times thev were stopped from more urgent business going on, and the revenue 
 president was too powerful for his assessors, who became his mere nominees. 
 Jt was intended that they should be the neighbours of the parties, l)ut the 
 impossibility of l)ringing them from a distance led to a state of things in 
 which they were generally selected from the iunnediate vicinity of the 
 tehsildary. The decision was governed by the majority, the president having the 
 casting vote ; in practice it was found that almost all of them were decided 
 unanimously, and as they had not the responsibility of enforcing tiieir de- 
 crees, they were not very particular in their decisions. Mr. Shore, in 183G. 
 to obviate the evil in some degree, added six sudder ameens, witii a primary 
 cognizance of suits to any amount, with only the condition, that in cases 
 undei- 400 rupees, that is, cases similar to those which the pergunnah courts 
 could hear, they should adopt the fee system of the pergunnah courts, but 
 hold the proceedings in the form of their own courts, which were assimi- 
 lated to those in the Regulation Provinces ; ihey also might execute the decrees 
 of the pergunnah courts. In 1843 I was sent down to remodel the civil courts. 
 Most of the abuses or difficulties which had arisen had been pointed out by Mr. 
 Robert ^Icrtins Bird in his Minute, which he made upon travelling through the 
 country as Revenue Commissioner, so that I had no great difficulty in finding 
 out a remedy. I appointed, as natives having primary jurisdiction, eight moon- 
 sifFs of the second class, four moonsiffs of the first class, and three sudder ameens ; 
 these all had primary jurisdiction; these \5 judges with primary jurisdiction 
 were committed to the charge of two judicial officers, who were called principal 
 sudder ameens, and the country was formed into two divisions ; these principal 
 sudder ameens performed tlie duties which a civil judge does in the Provinces; 
 they formed an appellate court from the native judges of primary jurisdiction, 
 and there was a special appeal to me fiom the principal sudder ameens, I repre- 
 senting the last court of appeal. 
 
 35gq. Did you find that system work well ?-- I found it work very well 
 indeed, as I could prove by details of the results. 
 
 3600. The Committee wish to avoid entering into any specific details, but 
 they desire to receive from you such suggestions as your experience may prompt 
 with respect to any improvements which might be effected in tlie judicial system 
 of India? — I would say, generally, that the well-educated Mahomedan of Central 
 India is well calculated for any rank of civil judicial office, provided he is well 
 supervised. It was the great beauty of Lord William Bentinek's system, that 
 instead of having a court of appeal a long way off, he made a c .urt of appeal 
 in every zillah. 
 
 3601. Would you introduce a system of juries r- -Juries were tried formerly 
 in the pergunnah courts, and they were found not to answer. I think the native 
 judge generally requires no jury ; he has a perfect general understanding of the 
 merits of the case, knowing as he does the manners and customs of the natives. 
 If he had a jury he might be tempted to do something improper, because the 
 responsibility would not be so directly upon himself, he would have a jury to 
 cover his faults. 
 
 3602. "\Vith regard to the general administration of justice, is there any sug- 
 gestion which you wish to make to the ('ommittee ? — 1 think it would be a great 
 impiovtment if some mode of training were introduced, by which officers, who 
 
 0.10. YY3 formerlv
 
 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. M. Caldecott, formerly obtained a certain amount of knowledge as I'egisters, might obtain 
 Esq. it now before they became civil judges of appeal. 
 ; jt'OS- You would re-establish the office of register? — I would not establish 
 
 28 April 1853. jj. jj^ ^j-|p form in which it existed in those days. I think officers were ap- 
 pointed judges too soon then ; but I think an officer, when he has attained the 
 rank of joint magistrate and deputy collector, an officer, say, of seven years' 
 standing, might be entrusted, supposing he were at a station wliere there was 
 a judge, with original jurisdiction there to the same extent that the principal 
 suddrr ameen has now, though not with any appellate powers : he might i^e 
 ordered to devote one or two days per week to civil judicial duties, besides his 
 magisterial and collectorate duties; he has the same pouers as a magistrate 
 and collector. 
 
 3604. Mr. Elliot.] You would make him assistant to the judge as well as to 
 tlie magistrate and collector? — Ves; I would make him a register with 
 original jurisdiction, which I think would relieve the principtd sudder ameen 
 so much, that if it were thought expedient to have an associate with the judge 
 in hearing appeals, the principal sudder ameen and the judge might sit together 
 to hear appeals from the moonsiff and sudder ameens, giving the judge the 
 casting vote if they differed, in that case leaving an appeal ; but if the judge 
 and the principal sudder ameen upon the appeal were unanimous, then that 
 there should be no apjieal from their decision ; I think it is very essential that 
 appeal should be left as ojien as possible. 
 
 3O05. Does not the system of appeal involve too great delays in the ad- 
 ministration of justice ? — A second and final appeal, 1 believe, is onl}^ upon 
 matters of lavv in the Regulation Provinces ; it is not allowed on the merits. 
 
 3606. Would you make any change in that respect? — 1 would allow an 
 appeal upon law and merits too, for this reason, that there is not the appeal 
 wliich we have in England ; there is not an appeal to the public. Tlie best 
 check against maladministration is, that there should be an appeal open to the 
 parties. 1 think it is peculiarly necessary in India. I kept it open in the 
 Saugor and Nerbudda territories, though it was very inconvenient, from the 
 press of business it at first occasioned me. It is certainly a question whether 
 the courts can get through their duties with an open appeal, but if they can 
 do so, I have no hesitation in saying that the appeal ought to be as open as 
 possible. If the judicial officers are efficient, that wiU verj' soon cease to be 
 burdensome, for when peo]»le have ascertained that the decisions are upheld, 
 debtors will be more carefid in paying when they can, without submitting to a 
 suit, and there would not be many litigious appeals. 
 
 3607. Is t'nere any other change which occurs to you to suggest? — There is 
 one change with regard to the civil judges in the Regulation Provinces. I 
 believe that at present they are not allowed to pass any decision in a regular 
 c\\\\ suit out of their own office at the station ; I think that is objectionable; 
 I think it would be much better if they were allowed, or orderc'd, to go out in 
 the cold weather into the district to hold their court on the journey, and to visit 
 the different moonsiffs and native judges at the places where they are at work. 
 The civil judge; would by tliat means ol)tain a much better knowledge of what 
 was going on, and the moonsiff would be much more careful in his proceed- 
 ings if he knew that the judge would i)e on the spot, and might inquire of his 
 neighbours how he had been conducting himself during the past year. 
 
 3008. Mr. Newdcffate.] From your experience you think that the natives, 
 particularly Malioniedans, may be usefully employed in the decision of civil 
 cases ; how far do you think they may be employed in the administration of 
 criminal justice ? — My own experience of the natives with regard to criminal 
 justice is, that tliey are very good judges of whether a fact is proved or not, but 
 they have no discrimination whatever in adjusting punishment to tlie crime 
 which may be proved. That is my e\perience, and it is an experience which 
 has been confirmed bv conversations I have had with otliers whose judgment I 
 would trust. I never met with u native yet in Central India who unthrstood the 
 principle of apportioning jmnishment to crime. 
 
 3()',»(). That failing on the part of the natives does not apply in civil cases ? — 
 Not in any way. 
 
 361 o. If the Committee understand you rightly, you are in favour of extend- 
 inq: the jurisdiction of the natives in civil matters, b\it not in criminal matters ? 
 — In eriminal matters I think there might be particular instances in which 
 
 petty
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OS INDIAN TERRITORIES. 359 
 
 petty cases should be made over to the natives ; where, in consequence of the c. M. OUdecott, 
 extraordinary distance from head-quarters, less injustice would arise from an Esq. 
 
 occassional inappropriate sentence than from dragf^ing people 150 miles to the 
 
 district court. ' 28 April 1853. 
 
 3611. Is it your opinion that natives might usefully be associated with 
 Europeans in the administration of justice ? — 1 reconnuend that the principal 
 suddcr ameen should be associated with the civil judge for tlie purpose of 
 bearing appeals from the ))rimary native courts. 
 
 3(iri. As far as your experience of the police has gone, what is your oi)inion 
 of that part of the administi-ation of justice in India ■ — 1 think the great 
 error in the system of police is, that the lower grades are so shamefully ill- 
 paid ; the pay of the higher grades has been raised, the darogahs, the jema- 
 dars, and the mohurrirs ; but the biu'kandazes remain at four rupees a 
 month ; that is, half the pay which a common soldier in India gets. At that 
 rate of pay no educated person would enter the service ; and, therefore, you 
 rarely find one fit to be promoted to the higher grades. 
 
 36 1 3. Sir R. H. IngUs.'\ Is there reason to believe, that in consequence of the 
 lowness of the pay, means are taken to enable the parties to live better, or to 
 live at all, which tlie law and reason would not contemplate r — There is no 
 doubt that where a person receives a pay which wiU not support him, he must 
 raise the uieans of support in some other way, from his influence as a police 
 officer. 
 
 3614. And those means are inconsistent with the due aduiinistration of 
 justice ? — The means taken by those common policemen are certainh' incon- 
 sistent with the due administration of justice. 
 
 3615. The means which he must adopt, in order to make his income com- 
 mensurate with his wants, are means inconsistent with tiie due discharge of 
 his duties r — They are means which make hiiu disreputable ; they make him 
 liable to punishment, and therefore damage his efficiency as a preventor or 
 detector of crimes. 
 
 3616. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] What is the ordinary rate of wages of labour in 
 India, where four rupees is the payment to the burkandazes ? — We paid three 
 and four rupees a month for our labour. 
 
 361 7. The pay of a burkandaze is always above the ordinary rate of wages 
 of labour, is not it r — Yes, it is just above the ordinary rate of wages of labour. 
 
 3618. Is it not probable that many persons would pi-efer that rate of wages, 
 with the advantage of residing in or near to their own homes, to a higher rate 
 of wages for serving as soldiers, and being subject to discipline, and stationed 
 almost always at a great distance from their homes ? — There was an instance of 
 it in the old provincial battalions ; they were paid five rupees a month, and at 
 Cawnpore there were better men to be found in the provincial battalion than 
 in many of tlie regular regiments, because families preferred having one of 
 their own number in the sei'vice at head-quarters of the district courts. 
 
 3(n(). You have spoken of the administration of criminal justice b}- the 
 natives ; what native officers employed under 30U exercised any criminal juris- 
 diction ?^ — The sudder ameens. 
 
 3620. To what extent had they the power of punishing.^ — They had the 
 power of an assistant magistrate, and they might have the extra powers of an 
 assistant magistrate ; they might inflict a month's imprisonment under the 
 common powers, and six months' under the special powers. 
 
 3621. Mr. Hardiitffe.] With regard to the pubhcity of the judges' decisions 
 in the North-Western Provinces, are the decisions of the judges jjublished in 
 pamphlets, which are circulated for public information r — 1 have not been in 
 the North-Western Provinces for seven years ; it was not the case when I was 
 there. 
 
 362-2. How many police battalions were there in the North-Western Provinces 
 when you were there ? — The old provincial battalions were in existence when 
 I was there ; they were abolished by Lord William Bentinck in 1831. In the 
 Saugor and Nerbudda territories Lord Ellenborough established two battalions 
 of military police, besides those established in Bundelcund by hun. 
 
 3623. Are you in favour of increasing the military police ])attalions, or would 
 you prefer the civil police .' — I do not see that the duties are at all analogous. 
 There are certain duties for which you recjuire one class of person ; there are 
 other duties for which you require simply detective policemen. All the guards 
 
 0.10. YY 4 of
 
 o 
 
 Go MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 €. M. Cnldccoti, of tho treasuries aiul the gaols, which used to be supi)lied by the provincial 
 Es'j. battalions, \Yere supplied by another set of men, maintained at another rate of 
 
 wiures, but distinct from tlie ])olice. I do not think that tlie duties of the 
 
 •2d A-pril 1S53. tletectivi' police could be efficiently performed by a military police of the nature 
 which I have seen orsranized in Central India. 
 
 3024. it has been stated h\ a former witness that in Bombay a civil and 
 sessions iudge has the power of removing a principal sadder ameen without 
 the sanction of the Government ; is that the case in the North-Western Pro- 
 vinces v" — No. 
 
 3()2,"). Mr. X(>ir(lct/((ti'.'\ Have you found much difference in the qualifications 
 of the natives for judicial offices among the inhabitants of different districts of 
 India r — ^A'e alwa\ s ])referred getting men who were Mussulmans from the 
 villages in the neighbourhood of Lucknow, as being better educated men, and 
 men of higher attainments, and more respectable in character. 
 
 ■5620. For the purj)o<e "f enlistment in the army, is there much difference 
 between the inhabitants of different districts .- — Decidedly. 
 
 3627. Is that dependent upon caste i^ — Not entirely; it is rather dependent 
 upon the habits of ihe ])eo])le. whether the community has been long in a very 
 civilized state, or whetlier it has been long under misrule, and in a state where 
 might was right; there, as in the Central Provinces of India, the military spirit 
 exists in castes lower than those which are ordinarily accepted in the regiments 
 of the service. 
 
 3628. Is it your opinion that it is possible for any person who is being 
 trained for the iudii'ial office to acquire an adequate knowledge of the habits 
 and character of the natives, if he remains long in the ncighl)ourhood of the 
 Presidency : — I think it is the very worst thing possible for the young civilians 
 to be detained in Caltnitta ; I think they see there the worst specimen of the 
 native character, in the shape of servants wlio can sniatter a little English, and 
 who like to be kicked ai)out for the sake of being paid for it ; they very often 
 b}' that means get an untrue notion of the natives of India whom they may 
 have to deal with afterwards. I think it would be very nuich better if young 
 civilians, when they ari'ived in the country, were examined by a competent 
 authoritv. and their attaimnents ascertained, the part of the Presidency they 
 intended to go to fixed, and that then they should be sent to selected officers, to 
 study under in the Mofussil. 
 
 3t)2n. The Connnitt<'e collect from your evidence, that the education of the 
 civil European judges, before they are entrusted witii the functions of their 
 office, you regard as inadequate ? — I think the system of Lord AVilliani 
 Bentinck has given them a much better means of artpiiring the capacity to be 
 judges than the old system did, but it has this fault, that it gives them no 
 opportunity of learning the routine of practice before they become judges of 
 appeal. 
 
 3030. Chairmaji.^ Is tliere any other suggestion which you would wish to 
 make to the ('ommittee .' — I think it would be better if the entrance examina- 
 tion to Haileybury were confined to what a tjood scholar from a public school, 
 at the age of 18, could jjass, instead of its being necessary that a young man 
 should be crammed before he goes to the examination. 
 
 3631, Sir C. WoodT] Would you alter the course of education which he 
 receives at Haileybury r — When he had got there I should suggest that less 
 attention should be paid to the classics than was paid in my time. The 
 elements of l."cW-, and history, and jjolitical (H'onomj-, I thinlv, should be 
 thoroughly worked into him, and the native languages should be well t;iught 
 in their rudiments, so that a young offic^er when he arrived in India should have 
 the means of applying that ordinary rudimental knowledge to every word he 
 hears spoken of the native languages. 
 
 3(»3J. Would v<m continue the edutration at Ilaileybm-y for more tlian two 
 years, or do you tliiuk a young man would aecpun' all he need know in that 
 time?— If he went there at IS 1 think he might acquire all that is necessary 
 before he amves at the age of 20. 
 
 ?,(i3?,. At what age did you leave Haileybury? — I went there at 17, and left 
 at 10: I passed mv examination in Imlia, entirely from the knowledge of 
 Oriental languages which 1 acciiiired at Haileybury, without having looked at a 
 book between the two occasions. 
 
 3()34. Mr. t]/u?n//r.s.\ Do you think it desirable that .^o much time as is no\v 
 
 devoted
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. .361 
 
 devofci'd to the study of Orientals should he devoted to it still ? — I am not C. M. Caldecutt, 
 aware of the system now adopted ; all I desire to see is, that they should have ^''l- 
 
 a good nidimental knowledge of the vernacular languages when they arrive in 
 
 India. ' "^^ '^P''' '853- 
 
 36.],5. What languages would you seleet "r — I was never stationed in Bengal, 
 but I found the Bengalee which I learnt of very great use to me among the 
 Hindi people, inasmuch as, in whatever degree, it contained Sanscrit words. 
 
 363(1. Supposing a certain amount of oriental study is to take ]ilace at 
 Haileybury, would you confine it to Sanscrit and Arabic, which may be called 
 the learned languages of India, or to the vernacular Bengalee or Hindostanee r 
 — I would confine it to the vernaculars in essentials. I would add a little 
 Persian, but not in any essential degree. 
 
 3637. Not Arabic nor Sanscrit ?— I do not see the need of it for practical pur- 
 poses. Tiiey may learn the Arabic language enough to know the form of the 
 verbs in a few days ; everything else which is essential to the discharge of 
 their duties in Arabic has been translated into the vernacular, or into English. 
 
 3638. Mr. Neivde(j(ite.~\ The Committee understand from your evidence that 
 you think it would be a wiser system for the Government to avail itself of the 
 assistance of competent native judges than to expect advantage Irom sending 
 barristers over from this country who had not previously to their leaving it 
 studied the native languages r — I do not think barristers from England would 
 be of any practical use in India ; they would be of such an age that they could 
 not acquire the native languages and the native customs so as to give confidence 
 to the natives that they were speaking to men who knew them ; and unless }'ou can 
 do that all your book learning is of very little use ; unless you inspire confidence 
 in the natives, and they feel that you understand what the}- say and what thev 
 feel, there is very little good to be done. 
 
 3639. Mr. Manqle.'i.^ You approve of Haileybury as a place of instruction ? — M 
 Certainly. There was a deficiency in the discipline in my time ; the students were 
 treated neither as men nor as boys, whereas if they are at the age of 1 8 they 
 may be treated as men. And there was a deficiency, in the miniminn examina- 
 tion being a great deal too low ; men passed who had not studied at all. But 
 Haileybury had every capacity in my time for making a person fit for tlie service. 
 
 3640. Do you know enough of the system of education at the two great 
 Universities to say whether the same amount of instruction could be acquired 
 there that can be acquired at Haileybury r — I cannot speak to that. 
 
 3641. Mr. Hardinge.~\ Can you suggest any improvement in the course of 
 studv pursued at Fort William ? — I recommend that nobody should stav at 
 Fort William. 
 
 3642. Sir C. Wood.] Can you suggest any mode by which civilians should 
 obtain a general knowledge of civil justice before they become civil judges, 
 beyond what they acquire at Haileybury ? — I suggest that they should be made 
 assistant judges of original jurisdiction. 
 
 3643. Chairman.] That would give them practical experience r — Yes ; other 
 witnesses haAe mentioned, I think, that the decisions of the sudder courts are 
 what they principally have to look to as precedents ; the Regulations are plain 
 enough for anybody to read ; there is no previous study of them required ; they 
 can be referred to as a case arises for the law, and beyond them they must look 
 to the precedents ; those precedents are printed and epitomized. 
 
 3644. Mr. J\Iavffle.s.] Have you seen the pamphlet published by Mr. Norton 
 of the Madras bar ? — No ; I have heard of it, but I have not seen it. 
 
 3645. Have you seen any extracts from it ? — I have read some cursorily. 
 
 3646. From what you saw, would it be applicable to the state of the adminis- 
 tration of justice in Bengal and the North-Western Provinces ? — I know nothing 
 about Bengal; in the North-Western Provinces 1 cannot see that there is any 
 ground whatever for such assertions ; ever since Lord William Bentinck began 
 his system there has been a gradual improvement going on ; ■Mr. Tliomastm is 
 carrying it out thoroughly, as far as 1 saw when i was in India, and I have 
 heard of it since ; nothing is now needed but a little more jjower in the local 
 authorities to carry on the improvements faster than our Legislative Council 
 will sometimes allow them. 
 
 2647. There is, practically, a good administration of justice in tho:e provinces 
 you think r — I think so ; there was as far as I could see when 1 was in India. 
 Of course I do not speak of my own court, but I was in the habit of mixing 
 
 o.io. Z z very 
 
 11!
 
 362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 C. M. Caldecott, very much with the natives, and knew their feeUngs pretty well, and they are 
 Esq. in the habit of corresponding with me. I have every reason to believe that 
 
 the system is as perfect as it can be with such frequent changes of the local 
 
 28 April 1853. administrators as you necessarily have there. 
 
 3(148. Mr. Hardmgc.^^ There have been no complaints among the natives of 
 the want of knowledge of the languages in the civil and sessions judges ? — 
 There were no civil and sessions judges in my neiglibourhood who were 
 deficient in the knowledge of the native languages. 
 
 3641). Did you ever hear of a civil and sessions judge who could not speak 
 a word of the native languages ? — No ; I have heard of a judge of the circuit 
 court who could not make himself understood in the native language. 
 
 3630. Sir /. W. Hogg.^ How long is it since that court was abolished ? — I 
 think it was abolished in 1829; that is the last case of the kind I have 
 heard of. 
 
 3651. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] By way of initiating the civil officers into the 
 administration of civil justice, you have suggested that a joint magistrate and 
 deputy collector should have the judicial powers of a principal sudder ameen ; 
 how would he be instructed in the discharge of those duties ? — I spoke of the 
 original jurisdiction of a principal sudder ameen hearing original suits, as an 
 assistant to the judge, under the judge's eye. The joint magistrate and deputy 
 collector, at the station where there happened to be a judge, should be ap- 
 pointed assistant judge, with original jurisdiction to the same extent as the 
 principal sudder ameen is, but with no appellate jurisdiction. 
 
 3652. You would expect the judge to supervise the proceedings of those 
 officers ? — There would be an appeal from them to the judge. 
 
 3*^53- Would there be in this way any mode of instructing them in their 
 duties ? — W hen I was register to Mr. Millett, at Allahabad, if he thought I 
 was doing anything wrong he used to send to me and speak to me about 
 it, and I used to go and ask him about anything that I desired to know in 
 matters of law or practice. 
 
 3(554. Sir G. Grc^.] Is there any sufficient reason why the administration 
 of justice is not equally good in Bengal, and the other parts of India, as it 
 appears to be in the North-Western Provinces ? — There is a difference in the 
 character of the natives ; tlie natives of the North-Western Provinces are more 
 truthful, and more independent. 
 
 3655. Do you think that the different character of the natives in other parts 
 of India entirely accounts for the difference which appears to exist in the 
 character of the administration of justice "r — I am not prepared to go to that 
 extent. 
 
 3656. To what other causes do you attribute the difi'erence, and are they 
 causes which you think might be removed ? — That is beyond my knowledge. 
 I know nothing of Bengal. I cannot fancy it to be necessary that there should 
 be that amount of crime which exists there. 
 
 Henry William Deane, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 B. IV. Deanc, Es(). 36.57- Chairman.'] YOU have held various offices in the judicial and revenue 
 - . departments in India during 25 years?— Yes. 
 
 3658. Latterly you were a judge; of the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut? — Yes. 
 
 3659. Where was that ?— At Agra, in the North-Western Provinces ; there is 
 only one Sudder Court in the North-Western Provinces, whicli is at Agra. 
 
 ■:^(:^(>i.). You have lately leturned, have you not ?— A year ago. 
 
 3661. With regard to the zillah judges, has there been any improvement in 
 that branch of the service during your acquaintance with it r — Very great ; 
 within the last 10 or 15 years much more attention lias been paid to the judicial 
 department than was paid to it before ; also the passing of Act 12 of 1843 has 
 contrihutcd very much to the efficiency of the judicial administration ; that Act 
 obliges the judges to record their decisions at length in English, and those 
 decisions are afterwards printed and circulated ; as regards the Sudder Court, 
 they arc always transhited into Ilindoostanee, the vernacular language, and 
 cin-uliited among the native judges. Perhaps it would be well if the decisions 
 of the zilhih judges were translated likewise, and if those of the native judges 
 were printed and circulated. 
 
 3662. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEUKlTORiES. 363 
 
 3662. Do you think the judi2;i's should, previously to their appoiiitmeiit to H. h'. Deane, K»q. 
 that office, he employed, in the first instance, in revenue matters ? — I do ; 1 do — 
 
 not think any judge can be thoroughly efficient unless he has previously had '^ -^1""'^ i8*3- 
 some experience in tlie revenue department. 
 
 3663. What is the comparative inducement to men to enter tlu^ ju(Ucial 
 service and the revenue service ? — The judicial branch of the service is not, 1 
 think, placed on a sufficiently high footing as compared with the revenue 
 branch ; no i)erson would take the office of judge who could obtain the office 
 of Revenue Commissioner ; the Revenue Commissioner is highly paid, and has 
 very little to do ; the judge, ou the contrary, is not so well paid, and has a great 
 deal to do ; tliat circumstance, of course, leads men to take revenue appoint- 
 ments whenever they can ; I think they should be placed, at least, upon an 
 equal footing in point of salary ; it must be remarked that there are very much 
 fewer revenue officers than there are judges. 
 
 3664. Would you recommend that, when once a civil servant has adopted the 
 judicial line, he should not be transferred to the Revenue Department? — I 
 think it would be better that he should not ; he should first have revenue expe- 
 rience, as I have said ; but having once been made a zillah judge, I think he 
 should look for promotion to the higher judicial posts, and not to revenue 
 appointments. 
 
 3665. Are there any defects which strike you in the present mode of pro- 
 cedure in the Company's courts r — I think there is rather too much leaning 
 towards technicalities ; mere forms are allowed to have more weight than they 
 should have, sometimes even to the prejudi(;e of substantial justice. I can 
 mention a case which occurred just before I left India, which will illustrate 
 what I mean. There is a law. Act 2 of 183*2, which provides that the police 
 shall not make inquiry into cases of simple burglax'y and theft unless the 
 aggrieved parties prefer complaints on unstamped paper to the darogah or police 
 officer. This was done in order to repress the injudicious activity of the police. 
 A case occurred in Backergunge, in which a thief was taken in the. manner, 
 and was cai-ried away by the prosecutor and a number of witnesses to the 
 tannahdar. The prosecutor did not give the petition on unstamped paper, as 
 required by the law, but he verbally stated the case, and the tannahdar took it 
 up and forwarded it to the magistrate, and the prisoner was convicted before 
 the magistrate on the clearest testimony. Afteinvards the Sudder Court in 
 Calcutta got hold of the case, and they noticed this omission of the prosecutor 
 to give the prescribed petition on unstamped paper. A consultation was held, 
 and it was found that differences of opinion prevailed among the judges Con- 
 sequently the case was sent to the sudder court at Agra for the opinion of the 
 judges there. This was a case in which, as it appeared to me, grievous ill was 
 done by too much adherence to mere technical forn^.s. If there was anything 
 in the argument that the omission to give a petition on unstamped paper was 
 fatal to the case, so also, I suppose, had it happened that the petition was on 
 stamped paper, the prisoner must have been released ; at least that might have 
 been held. 
 
 3666. Sir G. GreyJ] The objection, I suppose, was that the complaint was 
 made verbally and not in writing ? — Yes. 
 
 3667. Mr. Hunie.l What is your opinion with respect to requiring proceed- 
 ings to be on stamped paper ; is it in furtherance of the administration of j ustice r 
 — I do not see that it impedes it. 
 
 3668. You are in favour of it? — Yes; it prevents unnecessary litigation very 
 often. 
 
 36(n). Sir 'T. H. i\Jaddorh.\ You have spoken of its being expedient to 
 make the salaries of the judicial officers as high at least as those of the revenue 
 commissioners ; would you lower the salary of the commissioners, or raise the 
 salary of the judges ? — That is so much a question of finance that I cannot 
 give an opinion upon it ; the revenue commissioners are very few in comparison 
 with the judges ; there are 30 judges in the North-Western Provinces, but nut 
 more than six commissioners. 
 
 3670. Would you have all the judges paid at the same rate ? — All of an 
 equal grade should receive the same salary. 
 
 3671. Mr. Manf/ks.'] Were you ever a commissioner of revenue? — No, hut 
 I am pretty well acquainted with nature and extent of his duties. 
 
 3672. If a commissioner of revenue does his duty zealously, has not he plenty 
 0.10. z z 2 to
 
 364 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. ly. Dcanc, \Ls,q. to do ? — I should think not in the North- Western Provinces, now that the 
 
 settlements have been completed. 
 
 28 April 1853. 3673- Mr. IIume.'\ Is it your opinion that no man should be allowed to make 
 
 a complaint of any robbery or insult unless he pays a fee? — He is allowed to 
 make his complaint provided he is a pauper, or he is able to show that he 
 iias not the means of bearing the expense of litigation. 
 
 3674. What is the fee paid by a man upon making his complaint that he has 
 been robbed or insulted ? — He presents a petition on an eight anna stamp, in the 
 first instance, to the magistrate. 
 
 3675. Can he be heard himself, or must he jemploy some one for the pur- 
 pose ? — He may be heard himself. 
 
 3676. You think the expense of that stamp prevents needless litigation ? — 
 I think if you allowed persons to present petitions on unstamped paper you 
 would have a great deal of unnecessary litigation. 
 
 3677. Do you think people would present petitions without having some 
 complaint to make ? — Yes, I think so ; as it is, there are very often frivolous 
 and vexatious complaints made. 
 
 LuncE, 2° die Mail, 1853. 
 
 MEMBERS PUESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baring:. 
 Mr. B;inkes. 
 Sir C. Wood. 
 Mr. R. H. Ciive. 
 Mr. Mangles. 
 Sir Georne Grey. 
 Mr. Cobden. 
 Mr. Hildy.rd. 
 Mr. Labouchere. 
 
 Sir T. H. Maddock. 
 Mr. Elliot. 
 Mr. Hume. 
 Sir R. H. Inglis. 
 Mr. J. Fitzgerald. 
 Mr. Vernon Smith. 
 Sir .I:imes W. Hogg. 
 Mr. Lowe. 
 Mr. Ellice. 
 
 THOMAS BARING, Esq., in the Chair. 
 
 Henry JVillimn Deane, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 
 
 H. W. Dcane, Esci. 367S. Mr, Hume.'] WILL you state to the Committee why you think that the 
 
 fees on proceedings in courts of law in India are necessary ?^The object of the 
 
 8 May 1853. tax, of course, is financial ; the effect of it is to repress frivolous complaints. 
 
 3679. And you think the tax has that effect? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 3GS0. Chairman.'] Do you consider that to be the best mode of preventing 
 excessive litigation':' — I tliink it is one of the best modes. 
 
 3681. In your evidence on the former day you gave your opinion as to the 
 detects of tlie ))rescnt system, and you gave examples of the danger of adhering 
 too much to technicalities ; will you state what remedy you would propose for the 
 existing defects which you have mentioned ?— The language of the law, oc- 
 casionally, is not sufficiently precise, but in general the remedy lies witli the 
 superior courts tiicmsclves ; it consists in a sounder and more enlightened 
 interpretation of the law. 
 
 36S2. Would you suggest that there should be a new code of laws ajjplicable 
 to the natives ? — -No ; I think the law is sufficient for the natives of India so far 
 as it goes. It does not always go far enough ; points occasionally arise which are 
 not provided for by the exisliuii regulations. To say that the hiw is defective, is 
 only to say what might be said of any system of law whicli ever existed since the 
 world began. Tiieie is no point at which the functions of the legislator stop; 
 his task is a con.-tantly progressive task. Where points arise in our courts in 
 India which are not sufficiently provided for, they are met by precise legislative 
 enactment. 
 
 368 5. That progressive task you would confide to liic Legislative Council in 
 India r — Yes. 
 
 3684. And
 
 SELECT CO.MIVIITTEE ON INDIAN TKllIUTOllIES. 365 
 
 3684. And vou would not introduce any new and explicit code? — Not as H. W. Dfcmr, Es<\. 
 
 applicable to the natives, India has the advantage of a system wliicii has grown 
 
 u[) with the people, which has extended with their wants, and is capable of still ' ^^^y '^^''3- 
 further enlargement and improvement, in order to keep pace with their progress 
 in civilisation. I am quite sure that all violent and sudden changes would be 
 most injurious to India ; no reforms are permanent, or iiave a principle of growth, 
 except moderate reforms. All experience has shown that. 
 
 3t)85. Is it your belief that those reforms of which you speak are being gradu- 
 ally introduced under the present system of the administration of justice in India? 
 — It is. 
 
 3686. And you consider that that is the best mode of introducing such changes 
 as may be desirable ? — Certainly. 
 
 3687. With regard to other than natives, would you have a code applicable to 
 them '? — A general code is, no doubt, wanted to embrace all classes of the 
 communitv. 
 
 3688. Would vou suggest any change in the zillah courts as regards the suits 
 which are now tried by the principal sudder ameens r — It might be well if the 
 judges exercised original jurisdiction more than they do ; in practice, the court 
 of the zillah judge in civil cases is an appellate court only ; he rarely tries original 
 cases ; it miglit he well if he tried those cases the value of which is above 
 5,000 rupees, which are now tried by the principal sudder ameens; it might 
 give him a greater insight into the mode of procedure in original suits than he 
 now has, which might help him in his appellate capacity ; it would rest with the 
 sudder court to enforce any such arrangement. 
 
 3689. Will you state what you mean by a general code to inclnde all classes? 
 — A code of civil and criminal procedure. 
 
 3690. Sir R. H. TiigUs.] Would this general code which you say you desire to 
 apply to all classes, involve the supercession of the Hindoo law, the Mahommedan 
 law, or the British-Indian law? — I think the present law, as regards the natives, 
 should form a component part of the new code. 
 
 3691. That it should be absorbed into it ? — That it should be merged into it. 
 
 3692. Mr. Mangles.] Do you mean that it should be such a law as would 
 render Englishmen residing in the Mofussil subject to the same jurisdiction as the 
 natives r — Yes. 
 
 SOq^. A general code of law, which should embrace all parties resident in 
 India? — Yes. 
 
 3694. Sir T. H. MaddocJc] Your answer was, that you would recommend 
 a code of civil and criminal procedure; you would not thereby alter the substance 
 ■of the law of the country r — No. 
 
 3695. Mr. Bankes.~\ You would include that law in the general code which 
 you propose ? — Yes. 
 
 3696. And make one general code for the whole empire ? — Yes, such a code is 
 desirable ; the task would be difficult, no doubt. 
 
 3697. Cliairman.] Will you suggest any alterations that vou think desirable in 
 the mode of procedure ir. the zillah courts I — As regards Europeans, they are now 
 subject, in criminal matters, to a court at the Presidency only, the Supreme 
 Court; it would be better if they were brought under local jurisdictions. A 
 great evil is sometimes inflicted in taking a man, being a European, 1,000 miles, 
 to Calcutta, in order that he be tried there. 
 
 369S. Mr. A/ang/es.] Is not there virtually very often a denial of justice? — I 
 do not remember any particular instance in which I could say that justice has 
 been denied. 
 
 3699. Unless the case is a very heinous case, a case of murder, for example, in 
 regard to which the expense would be no object, and there would be a necessity to 
 bring the criminal to justice, would it not lead to a denial of justice that the 
 witnesses of the prosecutor must proceed a distance of 1,000 miles ? — It might be 
 so; but it does not always happen that cases of an aggravated nature alone come 
 into the Supreme Court. A short time before I lett India a person forged a 
 draft for 20 or 24 rupees ; he was taken down from the Norih-Western Provinces, 
 to be tried in Calcutta for that offence. 
 
 3700. Mr. Hume.] Was he a European? — Yes. 
 
 3701. Sir C.Wood.] How would you have had the man tried ?— By a local 
 court. 
 
 3702. By what local court r — In the first place, the magistrate should take 
 0.10. z z J cognizance
 
 366 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 //. IV. Deaue, Esq. cognizance of the case, as he does now ; the case would be tried by the sessions 
 
 court, if its final disposal were not within the magistrate's competence, and the 
 
 2 May 1853. appeal would lie to the sndder court, as is the case now. 
 
 3703. Mr. Hume.'\ You uish the Committee to undei'stand, that in every 
 zillai) the offences both of Europeans and natives should be treated in the same 
 way ? — It would be better it" there were a fusion made. 
 
 3704. Sir R. H. LigUs.'\ In your answer to Question 3365, you referred to a 
 case at Agra, but you did not state what was the final result of that case ? — I 
 omitted to say, that either by the order of the sudder court, or of the sessions judge, 
 1 am not quite certain which, but I think by the order of the sessions judge, the 
 ])risoiier was released on the ground of the informality which I noticed. 
 
 3705. In point of iact, tiien, substantial injustice was done? — Substantial 
 justice was defeated. 
 
 3706. You have not stated what offices you held, and what was the period of 
 your service, when it commenced, and when it terminated ? — I was, in the first 
 instance, appointed, as was the custom then, assistant to a collector and magistrate. 
 I was next a joint magistrate and deputy collector; afterwards I was deputy 
 collector for the investigation of claims to hold lands rent-free; afterwards a collector 
 and magistrate, then a zillah judge, and latterly a judge of the sudder court. 
 
 3707. And you have now left the service? — And I have now left the service. 
 
 3708. Chairman.] Would you introduce u/wi voce evidence in the zillah courts? 
 It would be highly desirable to do so. Tliat question came before the Legislative 
 Council just before I left India ; a draft of an Act was prepared, in which it was 
 proposed, among other things, to take evidence viva voce. I do not know whether 
 the Act has been passed ; undoubtedly it would be of great use ; the truth would 
 be, on many occasions, elicited by cross-examination ; the judge now has nothing 
 but the record. 
 
 3709. If you made it compulsory, would it not interfere with certam prejudices 
 of the natives against ap[)earing in the courts ? — A very few natives dislike 
 appearing in courts of justice to give their testimony, but in the majority of cases 
 there would be no such inconvenience. 
 
 3710. Would not the distance often be an impediment? — It would not operate 
 as an objection more than it does now. 
 
 3711. What is your opinion as to the employment of juries in the zillah courts ? 
 — In my opinion the experiment has not succeeded. A jury lias seldom been 
 associated with me on a criminal trial which did not give me the impression of 
 being either i'oolish or dishonest ; the institution is a most unpopular one ; natives 
 of respectability will not, if they can help it, serve as jurors. 
 
 3712. Do you mean by dishonest, that they do not exercise an independent 
 judgment, that they are guided by the opinion of the judges ; or do you mean that 
 they are influenced by more unworthy motives ? — By more unworthy motives; 
 those who contend, and I believe there are many, for the advantages of the jury 
 system, do not, as judges, scru|)le to set asiile their verdicts; and I can say, 
 that in appeals to the sudder court the verdict of a jury is not allowed much 
 weight. 
 
 3713. Do you generally attach much credit to native testimony? — Very little. 
 
 3714. Has there been any improvement of late years in the character of the 
 evidence of the natives? — I think not ; perjury is very common ; it is, in fact, 
 almost universal ; there is scarcely a case which comes into a civil court in which 
 perjury is not commiltcd by the witnesses. 
 
 3715. Is that peculiar to particular classes of natives ; or do you make it as a 
 general charge against the natives? — I do not make it as a charge against the 
 natives ; I am speaking of the character of the people. The duties ot a pure morality 
 are not inculcated in any system of education in India. Morality depends upon 
 sentiment ; men have regard not so much to the abstract quality of an act, as to 
 the esteem in which it is held. A man who commits perjury and forgery in India 
 is held m no disesteem ; therefore, it would be very difiicult to prevent perjury and 
 forgery by penal enactments. 
 
 3716. How is a judge to elicit the truth? — He walks by the light of nature; 
 he disposes of a case according to the probabilities of it, according to that measure 
 of sagacity with which Providence imi\ have seen fit to endow iiim. 
 
 3717. The Committee understand you to say, tliat you do not apply your 
 evidence to any particular class ; do you apply it to those who are attached to 
 any |)articnlar creed : for example, is your opinion the same with regard to 
 
 Mahomedans
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 367 
 
 Maboniedans and Hindoos? — Yes. There are some men in India, as in all H. W. DeuTte,'Es(\ 
 
 countries, who will not tell a lie. I am speaking of tlie general body of the 
 
 lower classes, of the persons who are usually witnesses in the courts of justice. a May 1853. 
 
 3718. You have prohably seen the book written by Mr. Norton ? — 1 read an 
 article respecting it in " The Times"' newspaper ; I have uicrely looked at the pam- 
 phlet ; I have not read it througli. Some of the eases were cited in " The Times,'' 
 and it appeared to me that tliey would admit either of explanation or defence. 
 In one case, the judge is said to have made over the thing in dispute to the col- 
 lector, because having been a collector, he had an irrej^ressible leaning towards 
 the fisc. I take it that that was a case of land which had escheated to the 
 Government, and that tiie judge simply acted under the law in transferring it to 
 the collector. 
 
 3719. Sir i?. H. Inglis.] Is that like what, in the English law, is called a 
 heriot? — Yes, it is ; it falls to the Government. In another case it was made 
 matter of blame that the judge gave the plaintift' a decree, although payment of 
 the amount sued for had been admitted. It might be, however, that there were 
 several co-plaintiffs in an action, and that one of them was prevailed on by the 
 defendant, after the institution of the suit, to put into court a receipt for the sum 
 claimed ; in that case, if the judge was satisfied, from the evidence before him, 
 that the debt had not been paid, and that the putting in the receipt was a collusive 
 transaction between one ot the joint plaintiffs and the defendant, he was quite 
 right in passing a decree in favour of such of the plaintiffs as had not admitted 
 payment of the debt. Fraudulent and collusive transactions, of the nature I 
 have described, are common in law proceedings in India. It is to be understood 
 that I merely give the impression on my mind. Unless the cases were before me 
 1 could not speak confidently as to their merits. 
 
 3720. Chairman.] Taking the particular cases to which you allude to be as they 
 are stated, do you consider them a fair specimen of the mode of administering 
 justice in India? — By no means. 
 
 3721. Do you think that such errors of judgment or of knowledge are of" 
 frequent occurrence ? — I am far Irom sure that the majority of the cases con- 
 stituted errors of judgment at all ; some of them did ; there are some I profess 
 myself unable to comprehend. The first case is that of a man who sued for 
 55,000 rupees, and not having established his case, was fined 55,000 rupees. 
 That appears to me a hard measure to deal out to a plaintiff. 
 
 3722. I understand you to say that if such cases did occur, they were an 
 exception to the usual course of the administration of justice in India? — Certainly 
 they were. 
 
 3723. Sir T. H. Mac/dock.] There was no such practice in the North-Western 
 Provinces? — No. 
 
 3724. Chairman.'] Are the native judges highly considered in India? — Some 
 of them are ; a good many are not held in much repute. 
 
 3725. Is it your opinion thai the majority are men of repute ? — Yes, I think 
 they are. 
 
 3726. We have heard that they have an examination ; is that a strict examina- 
 tion, and is care taken as to their selection ? — The examination is strict, and great 
 care is taken as to their selection ; but the Government; who appoint officers 
 above the grade of moonsiffs, that is, the sudder ameens and the principal sudder 
 ameens, and the sudder court who appoint the moonsiffs, are nt cessarily dependent 
 upon the local oflficers for information respecting the character of a man ; his 
 qualification, in point of talent and knowledge of the law, may be judged of from 
 the examination he passes, but that will not show what character lie bears; 
 reports, however, are given by the local authorities. 
 
 3727. Great care is taken, vou think, in their selection ? — Yes, as much care as 
 can be taken. 
 
 3728. Sir T. H. Maddoclc] Does law form any part of the instruction in the 
 colleges of Benares, Delhi, and Agra ? — I think not. 
 
 3729. Is there any separate institution for instructing students in law in the 
 North-Western Provinces ? — There is no separate institution ; if they learn it, 
 they can only learn it at the College of Agra. 
 
 3730. At the Mahomedan schools and colleges the students are instructed in 
 the Mahomedan law, are not they ? — They are. 
 
 3731. Chairman.] Should you recommend the promotion of the native judges 
 to higher situations in the judicial department? — No; they have as much power 
 
 0.10. z z 4 as
 
 368 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. ;r. Difljic, Esq. as ought to be entrusted to them ; they have very extensive powers, especially 
 
 the principal sudder anjeens. A principal sudder ameen tries cases to any amount, 
 
 2 May 1853. subject to an appeal to the sudder court. He abo hears appeals from the 
 inferior judges ; in those cases his decision is final, subject only to a special appeal ; 
 that special appeal must rest, not on the merits of the case, but on the ground 
 that the decision appealed against is at variance with sotne law or practice of the 
 courts ; so that, with the exception of a special appeal, the principal sudder ameeu 
 exercises, frequently, final powers. 
 
 373'2. Are the Committee to understand that your 0[)inion is, that it would not 
 be safe to trust the native judges with full jiower without the supervision of a 
 European judge? — I think not ; the time has not arrived for that. 
 
 3733. You alluded to the crimes of perjury and forgery; are those on the 
 increase, or have they, to your knowledge, diminished ? — I do not think they have 
 increased or diminished much ; they are committed as much as they used to be. 
 and not more. Cases of perjurv constantly come before the sudder court, and 
 I believe dey have always done so. 
 
 3734. A previous witness recommended that the vakeels should he promoted 
 to the situations of native judges, without passing through the subordinate ranks; 
 would that he desirable, in your opinion ? — If good selections were made, there are 
 some men in the sudder court at Agra who are very able, and well qualihed to 
 hold any judicial appointment which a native now holds ; but they would object ; 
 they make a good deal more by the exercise of their profession than they would 
 receive as judges. 
 
 3735. Would you recommend that the salaries of the native judges should be 
 increased? — The salaries of the lower grades. I do not think they are sufficiently 
 well paid ; a uiOonsiflF receives 100 rupees a month. That is scarcely enough to 
 enable him to maintain the respectability of his office. 
 
 3736. Sir T.H. Maddock.'\ Is the salary of the principal sudder ameen now 
 established upon such a footing as to place him rciativeiy in a position of equality 
 with a European judge? — Yes, I think it is. 
 
 3737. That is so say, lie has 600 rupees a month? — Yes. 
 
 3738. And the European judge has four times that amount? — Yes. 
 
 373Q. You think that proportion is adequate to place them, considering their 
 wants and positions, upon a footing of equality? — Yes; whatever a native pur- 
 chases, is purchased for less than a European pays, and in a climate such as 
 India, many things are necessary to a European, which a native of the country 
 has no occasion tor. 
 
 3740. Mr. Elliot'] It must be considered also that they have no family to 
 bring up in another country ?~Yes. 
 
 3741. Chairman.] 1 gather from your evidence that it would not be your 
 opinion that the use of the English language should be made compulsory in the 
 ('onipanv's court? — Ccrtaiidy not. I tliink if you send out barristers to plead in 
 the Comiianvs courts, those who have qnalilled themselves in the vernacular lan- 
 guage of the country might be very useful in those courts ; but to send out a 
 whole host of barristers fresh from Westminster Hall, and turn them loose, hungry 
 after a long fust, upon the provinces of India, would almost justify a rebellion 
 throughout the country. 
 
 3742. Mr. Hume.] What is the punishment awarded to perjury, which you 
 state to be so frequently committed in India? — A man who commits perjury is 
 liable to imprisonment for seven years ; that sentence may be mitigated at the 
 discretion of tiie sudder court. 
 
 3743. Are such punishments frequent ? — Punishments arc frequent, but still 
 the crime is common. 
 
 3744. Are those who have been punished for ]>erjurv once, allowed to become 
 again servants, or to be connected with the court? — They would not be allowed 
 to become servants of the Government ; their evidence is admissible. 
 
 374.V Arc vou able to suggest any mode by which that practice, so injurious 
 to the interests of justice, could be put an end to m India? — By educating the 
 people, by teaching them more than you do now the duties of morality. 
 
 374(). You think that that would be the best course to pursuer — It appears to 
 rne the only course. 
 
 3747. Do you consider that any strict conduct on the part of the judges in 
 ])unishing perjury in every case would not be useful ? — I do not tliink it would 
 lie sufficient. 
 
 3748. Mr.
 
 SELECT COMMIT'J'EE ON INDIAN TJCRRITORIES. 369 
 
 3748. Mr. V. Sinitli.^ Do ynii mean tliat an iiiiprisotiinciit for seven j'cars is jf. iv. Danir, Vsq. 
 often inflicted ? — Very often ; it nuiy he miti^ated. 
 
 3749. In point of fact, -sornitinies it is so? — Yes, it may extend to seven years, - M;')' '^.)3- 
 but it must not, under the law, he less than tiu-ee years; the Sadder Court have 
 
 the pov.er of miliLiation, where a less term of iuiprisonmeut than three years may 
 seem [)roper. 
 
 3750. Mr. M(nvj;h'S.~\ Is it not the faet that in India there is no moral lepro- 
 baliou of hueh an othnce l)y the native eoinmuuity ? — That is the ease. 
 
 375;. It lias been stated in a \^ ell-known essay upon Warren HastiuL's' life, in 
 refereuee to tl)p trial of Nuneoniar, that tiie natives ot India generally reuard 
 the eriuie of peijury and foriijery verv much in the same point of view in wiiieh a 
 Yorkslnieman would reiiard the sellins; c>\' an unsound horse for a sound one ; do 
 j'ou believe that to be a true statement ? — I think that represents the state of 
 feeling; the joekey would not be il! received auionji his iViends; piobahlv he 
 would win an additional reputation for his ability ; and so a man is held in no 
 disesteeni in India on account of perjurv or foi'jiery. 
 
 3752. Is not it the case that in the North-VV'estern Provinces the word which 
 siiinities •' ])lii!osopher " is almost universally applieil to a eunnino; successful 
 rogue, who lives and thrives hv fraud ? — Yes. 
 
 3753. Sir R. II. Jj/giis-l Do vou me;m tiiat the crime vou have spoki'u of 
 is not at present prevented by education, is not repressed hv public opinion, and 
 is not discountenanced by any sentence of i^nominv passed upon the perpetrator 
 by a judicial tribunal? — It is not; education would be powerful to repress it. 
 
 375^1. Mr. Jilanghs.'] Does not the state of things which you describe with 
 regard lo the ahno.-t universal prevalence of perjury and forgery, render the 
 adaiinistraiion o("justice necessarily very diflictdt ? — Very much so. 
 
 3755- -'^'c men, who are onlv cognizant of the manner in which justice is 
 administered in this country, and with the facilities which the high moral feeling of 
 the people gives to the administration of justice here, competent judges of the 
 difiiculti- s of the administraticm of justice in a coiintiy like India? — They are 
 utterly unalile to form an opinicn upon the subject. 
 
 37.50. ]\ir. James Mill says in his History, '• Such is the difficulty of the ad- 
 ministration of justice to a people, without the assistance of that peo|)le ; such is 
 tlie impossibility in the [)iesent state of morals of the people ot Imiia, of ohtain- 
 ing that assistance etfectivelv from them." Do you beheve that to be a correct 
 representation of the state ot things: — I do. 
 
 37.57. In Mr. Norton's hook, vou may remember there are a number of very 
 strong eonunents upon the leniency "itti which criminal justice is administered, 
 in regaid to capital punishments; a woman who had killed her children was 
 sentenced to transportation, which is S|)oken of in terms of higdi condemnation, as 
 it is said that tlij woman ought to be hung; do \ou think the state" of feeling and 
 opinion in Iialia is such, that it is necessary to administer criminal justice with 
 that extn me severity? — I liiiuk not. 
 
 37.58. Very often the passions of the jieople have such a sway over them, and 
 they have so very little sense ot right or wrong, that it would be cruelty to admi- 
 nister criunnal justice with extreme severity? — Yes: I think a good discretion was 
 exercised in the ease to which you refer. 
 
 37.59. You said that the fitness of the native judges for the higher offices was 
 a question of time only ? — Yes. 
 
 3760. Are you of opinion that they have improved, and are improving? — I 
 thie.k they are. 
 
 3761. And that if the present system is persevered in, it will in time work itself 
 pure ? — Yes. 
 
 37G2. And the natives will eventually be fit for still higher offices? — Certainly. 
 
 3763. And you think that things are now in the right course, and tending 
 gradually to that end? — Yes, a very good system is being built u[). 
 
 37()4. Sir 2'. H. Maddock.'] Will you state lo the Committee what is the 
 punishment for perjury according to the Mahomedan law?— I believe that perjury 
 was, on the whole, more lightly punished than with us ; but the Mahomedan law- 
 has no place in the sentences for peijury passed by our courts. 
 
 3765. Is there any ignominious punishment attached to it by the Mahomedan 
 law ? — Yes, and there was formerly under our own law, but that has been done 
 away with. 
 
 376(5. Do you consider it advantageous t ) have discontinued the inffiction of 
 0.10. 3 A ignominious
 
 370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. IT. Deawc, Esq. ignominious puiiisliinents in cases of perjur}' in India? — Yes, I think it desirable 
 
 — to discontinue it in any country. 
 
 2 Way 1853, 37('7. Mr. Bankes!\ Have the Hindoos any ignominious punishment for per- 
 
 jury? — No, I think not. 
 
 3768. Chairman.} Have you any sugsjestions to make respecting any change 
 which should be made in the Sudiler Court? — Those Europeans who are residing 
 in the country ou^ht to l)e subjected to the local jurisdiction, if possible ; in that 
 case it would be desirable to have one or two English lawyers associated with 
 the sndder judges. 
 
 37tiy. Mr. HumeP\ Looking to the Sudder Court as it is now constituted, do you 
 think any improvement could be made in it by a junction with the Supreme 
 Court, or in any other manner ? — Yes ; an improvement would be made. 
 
 3770. Will you state what you think would be the best mode of improving it ? 
 — It would be well if English lawyers, persons who had qualified themselves for 
 the exercise of their profession, were associated with the judges of the Company's 
 courts, but the English lawyers should be in a minority; you should have one 
 to three or two to five ; otherwise some mischief might be done. There might 
 be too great a disposition to dwell upon legal sabtleties, and it requires not only 
 a clear and masculine, but a trained and practised understanding to determine the 
 exact value of a legal subtlety. 
 
 3771. ^^^)uld you consolidate the two courts into one, or have them separate ? — 
 I would consolidate the courts into one. 
 
 3772. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] In your opinion, does not justice require that in 
 the case of all P>uropean criminals in the North-Westeru Provinces there should 
 be a court where their cases could be finally disposed of; ti)at in that court there 
 -hould be what we call an Engli?h judge, as well as a provincial judge? — I 
 think so. 
 
 3773. Is the number of the European residents in the North-Western Provinces 
 increasing? — I believe it is. 
 
 3774. And the number of the European soldiery, as the Committee is aware, 
 has greatly increased? — Yes. 
 
 3775. Do you see any difiiculty in an amalgamation of that description, as far 
 as the administration ui the two systems of law is concernetl ? — No difficulty 
 which might not be overcome. 
 
 3776. In what manner would you get rid of any apparent difficulty ; would it 
 be by a codification of law? — Yes; by a general code, which should en, brace 
 all, but retaining so much of the present code as applies to the natives. 
 
 3777. Sir R. H. Inglis^\ You object to ignominy as a part of the punishment 
 for perjury ; is not ignominy an almost essential part of all punishments in cri- 
 iriiuiil cases, except in political cases? — The natives in India do not hold that there 
 is anv ignominy in mere imprisonment. 
 
 377S. Though the natives do not regard ignouiiny as connected witii imprison- 
 ment as a punishment for forgery and |)erjury, still you would not add any mark 
 of ignominy as an essentia! part of the [)unishment ? — I think, on general grounds, 
 it would be very undesirable ; we should be said to retrace our steps to India. 
 
 3779. Mr. V. Smiths] What would you consider an ignominious |)unishment? 
 — Putting a man upon a jackass, or blackening his face. 
 
 3780. Sir T. H. Maddock.] Have ne not already retraced our steps in respect 
 to the re-introduction of corporal punishment? — So far we have. It is, how- 
 ever, not olten applied except to juvenile otienders, and is rather in the nature of 
 sciiool discipline. I might add, that the crime of perjury is rendered more fre- 
 quent l)y the introduction of Act 5, of 1S40, which ha^ abolished the use of the oath 
 on the Ganges watei. There are many persons in India who would not scruple 
 10 tell a mere lie, but «lio would have great hesitation in taking a false oath with 
 the Ganges water in tluir hands. 
 
 3781. Sir R. H. Ingiis.'] The employment of that oath has been abolished ?— 
 Yes; its abolition has t.iken away what little security for veracity there wns. 
 
 3782. What is the j)resent form of oalii ? — Merely a solemn declaration, which 
 is regal ded as not at all bindmg by the great body of the people who make it. 
 
 3783. Mr. Cohdcn.] Wliat was the motive for changing the form of the oath ? 
 — I have heard that the Government were of o|)inioii that respectable persons 
 were unwilling to come into courts of justice and to take the oatii. I do not, 
 however, think that the class had in view were so unwilling to take the oath in 
 courts of justice as to come there at all. My own experience would lead me to 
 
 say
 
 SELECT COMMITTER ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 371 
 
 say that natives of respectability, in general, had no great objection to take the H. IT. D«r«ne, Esq, 
 oath. L 
 
 3784. Mr. Mangles.] Is not il the case that n\any Hindoos of particular 2 May 1853. 
 castes, or with particular teelings, consider it to be a sin to take an oath on the 
 Ganges water, without reference to its truth or falsehood ? — There are snch 
 classes. 
 
 378.5. Was not it very desirable for their sakes to abolish the [iracticc? — 
 The class referred to is, I think, very sin:dl. 
 
 3786. Sir T. H. Jl/addock.] Are you a«areof any mode which is practised in 
 the native courts ©(justice of administering: oaths which is considered binding by 
 the natives ? — Yes ; thev have such a mode. 
 
 3787. What is it? — One mode is, for a man to place his hand on the head of 
 his son. 
 
 3788. Is it not believed that a man who fakes that oath, placing his hand 
 upon his son's head, will invariably be found to speak the trutli ? — I believe he 
 ■will ; he dares not violate that oath. 
 
 3789. Do you see any objection to the use of a similar oath in the British 
 courts, it there is no other n)0(le in which you can be sure of compelling a man 
 to speak the truth ?- I would introduce that form of oath which binds a man 
 most. 
 
 3790. Has tiiat term ever been used, to your knowledge, within any of the 
 British courts? — I am not aware tliat it has. 
 
 3791. Sir C. Wood.] Is not it tlie practice in India, according to what is the 
 law in this country, to swear every man by the oath supjiosed to be most binding 
 upon ids conscience? — No, thev have a solemn declaration, whicli a man does not 
 consider binding on his conscience ; the form of oath has been abolished in the 
 courts of justice. 
 
 3792. Sir /. W. Hogg.] Did not the question very frequently arise in courts of 
 justice, when natives of a particular caste were called as witnesses, whether they 
 should be sworn on the Ganges water, or whether they should be sworn by a 
 punilit reciting a certain portion of the Vedas, or holy writings ? — Yes, there were 
 many different forms of oath. It was usual, for instance, to swear a Chinaman 
 by breaking a saucer; and I once happened to be present at a C(jurt-martial, 
 where a man of low caste was brought in as a witness, and was asked on what 
 he would be sworn ; he answered, on brandy; accordingly, a small quantitv of 
 brandy was poured into his hand, and iiis evidence was taken. 
 
 3793. I am confining my question to Hindoos ; was not it constantly a matter of 
 dis|)ute with witnesses whether they should be sworn upon the Ganges water, or 
 whether tliey were of a degree to entitle them to be sworn by havinij a certain 
 portion of tlie Veda recited to them by tlieir priest? — Yes, it sometimes was. 
 
 3794. Did not that give rise to great difficulty in administering justice? — To 
 some difficulty. 
 
 379,5. Mr. Elliot.] Would the mode of swearing a man upon the head of his 
 son operate as much with the lower classes as with the higher classes ? — I think 
 it would not operate upon the lower classes so much as upon the higher classes ; 
 but to some extent it would operate. 
 
 3796. Sir R. H. Jiiglis.] Did not the Rajah of Tanjore obtain the obtestation 
 ol Schwartz tor the care of his son by putting that son before Schwartz, and 
 getting him to put Ids hands upon his liead ? — I do not know. 
 
 Javanjee Pestonjee, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 3797. Chairmari.] HAVE you any experience of the administration of justice /. P«/on;Ve, Esq. 
 as it is conducted in the Company's courts in the Bombay Presidency ? — T have. — ■ . 
 
 3798. Will you inform the Committee how you consider justice is adnnnistered 
 there ? — It is not so satisfactorily administered as could be wished ; the defects to 
 which I may be permitted to draw the attention of the Committee are these: 
 first, I would point out how the cases are carried on up to the final appeal ; in 
 the first instance, they are tried by the native judges, under the denomination of 
 moonsiff's, sudder ameen>, and prmcipal sudder ameens ; an appeal lies trom their 
 decision to the English judge or to his assistant, who are appointed trom the cove- 
 nanted service ; trom their judijmeiit an appeal lies to the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adav\lut, the highest Company's court in India. The cases carried on through 
 
 0.10. 3 A 2 those
 
 37^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. Pe^t"njfe, lisq. those several staors ;irc subject to ureat delays ; in some instances, to obtain a final 
 
 — (leciMoii in the .Suckk-r Ada«Uit, it has taken a period of three years at least, and 
 
 •2 Miiy 1853. ill some cases even 10 v^ars. The mode of the examination of the witnesses is 
 another ohstacle to the expedition with which cases onght to be carried 01; it fre- 
 quently iiappcns that in some cases from 15 to 20 witnesses are brought up; 
 their examiniition is taken down upon paper, which not only lengthens the pro- 
 ceedings, but, in a gieat measure, unnecessarily wastes tlie time of the court. 
 Other abuses arise from the inconipeiency of some of the Englisli Judges, who are 
 not s-.ilhcientlv acquainted uith the languages in vvhicii the proceedings are carried 
 on. or with the INluhonicdan or Hindoo la«s; in such cases they frequently place 
 themselves in the hands of their subordinates, the sheristadars, who receive a 
 very small salary, say from 70 to 80 rupees ; in case the parties are not tlien 
 satisfied with the decision, they are ultimately left to a fresh appeal to the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlut. 
 
 3799. Chain nan.'] Can you suggest any mode of reforming those evils or defects 
 whicii vou mention ?— First of all, courts of requests, such as they have in ijomhay, 
 to decide minor cases, and also such as the county courts in England, shoulii be 
 established in every talookah ; tiiose should lie composed of the j)atcil or zemindar 
 of the district or town, with two other respectable inhabitants, and they should be 
 authorised to adjudicate iq)on those cases, and tlieir decision should be taken as 
 final. It would prevent the poor people having to undergo the expense of liti- 
 gation ubic!) they now have to encounter, in order to ol)tain a just decision. 
 Judi^es should be selected who have a thorouo;h knowledge of the laniiuage in 
 which the proceedings are carried on, and who are well ac(|uainted with the 
 Hindoo and Mahomedan laws. Assistant judges should also l)e selected who 
 have a sinular kuowkd^e; but I Aould suggest tliat the judges and their assistants, 
 lor the pur()ose of acquiring an acquaintance with the customs and usages of the 
 country, and the nanners of the ()eople, shoidd in the first place he appointed as 
 assisiaiit collectors and magiatrales ; during that time they would obtain a thorough 
 knowledge oi the eustoms and usages of the people, and become acquainted with 
 the laws; so n)ueh of the business in the interior beins: comiected with revenue 
 matters. After a certain term (jf years they should be ap[)ointed to the situation 
 of a^si^tant judge ; but beibre that they should undergo a strict examination, the 
 same as the natives do, before they get iheir diploma. This mode of examination 
 by the Sudder Adaulut is highly approved of; I n)ay be permitted to mention 
 how diev carry it on : first of all, the candidate is examined in the knowledge of 
 the Company's c,)de of laws; then he is questioned about the mode of procedure 
 in the courts, and the diHerent laws ; last of all, he is given a case already decided 
 in t!ie Sudder l)ev,anny Adawlut; he examines the papers, and pronounces his 
 judgment : d' that coincides with the judgment of ilie Sudder Dewanny Adawlut, 
 then he is entitled to his diplo:na. I stKnild suggest that the same exannnation 
 should be "one throutih in the ctise of members of the civil service who obtain 
 that appointment. 
 
 3800. Von would not be in favoiu' of appointing barristers fresh from this 
 country, whatever might be their legal knowledge here, to preside in the Com- 
 panv's court.s ? — It occurs to me that they are trained in the English law, while 
 the law of the Company's courts is tramed on the principle of the religion, usage 
 and customs of the people of India, which is more suited and more acceptible to 
 the jieople than the English law. I should say that the ai)])ointment of those 
 barristers would i)e advantageous, provided they have a knowledge of the 
 language in which the jiroceedings are conducted, and are acquainted with the 
 MaiiouH dan and Hindoo laws, otiiervvise I should think that they ndght as well 
 go to llussia ai.d tidminister the Englisli hiw there. 
 
 3S01. Mr. Mmujles.'] Among his other requisites, ought not such a man to be 
 acquainted with the habits and maimers of the jieople? — Decidedly. 
 
 3802. ^ on said beiorCv that in order to be a juilge, the otlieers ought to go 
 thiough the Uevenue department; would a barrister be competent to be a judge 
 without having gone thiough the same ci/urse of instruction? — I think they have 
 a supeiior education, and a superior knowledge of the law ; they know the theory 
 of the law, and of course ihey are capable to practise it. 
 
 3803. All . FAliot.'] Would they have the means of bcconnng acquainted witli the 
 lialiits and customs ol the people, whicli you '^aid just now was so essential to their 
 becoming good judges? — 1 do not think so, unless they reside in the Company's 
 territory f(;r the purpose of acquiring that knowledge. 
 
 3804. Without
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 373 
 
 •:5o04. Witlioul that knowledge tliey could not become i^ood judges in IiuIki ? J. Peiiunjee,E&<\. 
 — I do not tliink tiiey could. . 
 
 3S05. Chuinnan.\ Would you recommend Uint the English laniiuage sliuuld be 2 May 1853. 
 used in the Comjiany's courts? — Decidedly not; the ii;ajorify of the people are 
 onlv acquainted with their own laniiua^f, and the judiie who has to administer 
 justice siioidd do so in a lauiiuage wliicli tiicy untlcrstaiid. 
 
 380(1. Would it he more satisfactory if juries were always employed in India? 
 — I do riot think that in the interior you could get a sutficient number of jurors; 
 the ])eople there are quite averse to serve as jurors, because many of tliem are 
 ennaued in hushsndry and other occupations ; they have first of all to think of 
 earning their subsistence before their time is occupied with other duties ; in some 
 coniiihcaled cases, I think, if the assistance of jiu-ies could be obtained, it would 
 be useful, and it would assist the judge in arriving at a proper conclusion. 
 
 3807, In comfilicatcd cases of civil law, you mean ? — Yes. 
 
 3808. Mr. Elliot.'] Do you mean that there should be juries before the judge, 
 or would you prefer having puncliayets? — In Bombay and other places, the 
 bankers and other persons never go to a court of law ; they have a society among 
 themselves; thev appoint one of their body as President, assemble together, and 
 decide the question at once. 
 
 3800. Bv arbitration : — Yes. 
 
 3S10. 'M.w Mangles. ] Do not they like the Supreme Court? — I think the 
 peO[)le of the interior would not like the Supreme Court. 
 
 381 I. Do the people of Bombay^ like the Supreme Court? — Yes. 
 
 38i'J, You say they settle their cases by arbitration in preference to going into 
 the Supreme Court ? — They do. 
 
 3813. Cliairman.] You have been engaged in business? — I have been a banker. 
 
 3814. Have you been long in England? — I have been here since .luly last; 
 I was here once in 18.51. 
 
 3815. You are aware that people engaged in commerce in this country like to 
 keep out of courts of law if they can ; and would you rather settle things by 
 arbitration r— Yes. 
 
 3816. The same feeling exists, therefore, without any particular objection to 
 the courts? — Just so. 
 
 3817. Mr. V. Smith.] Is not going into court very expensive? — It is. 
 
 3818. That may deter some? — Yes. 
 
 3819. Chairman.] Do the judgments of the native judges give general satis- 
 faction r — They do. 
 
 3820. Would you prefer the judgment of a native to that of a European judge ? 
 — I tliink that il the judges were equally com.petent, I should have no preference. 
 
 382 j. You would have equal confidence in the integrity of both-— Y'cs; there 
 is no question about the integrity and the luorality of the civil service. There 
 are man\' civil servants who are fpiite competent, and thoroughly understand the 
 duties of their office; those even who do not possess a knowledge of the law, are 
 willing to discharge the duties of their office with impartiality. 
 
 3822. Is the same confidence entertained in the integrity of all the native 
 judges '? — Yes ; of course you will find black sheep in every flock. 
 
 3823. Do you think the native judges are sufficiently paid ? — I do not ; 
 they are very inadequately paid. I think they have to perform more duties than 
 the English judges in civil cases; the English judges only sit on appeal ; the 
 natives tiy the cases. 
 
 3824. Mr. JMangU'S.] Does not the English judge administer the whole 
 system ; he is a sort of president in the district, and apportions out the suits, so 
 nianv to this judge, and so many to t!iat judge; so that besides sitting in appeal he 
 has the superintendence of the whole judicial administration of the district, has 
 not he ? — He has. 
 
 3825. Mr. Elliot.] Has not he also the execution of all the decrees ? — Yes, 
 he has to issue orders for their execution t'rom the Sudder .station, which are 
 carried into effect ii\ the interior by the native jutlges. 
 
 3826. All the miscellaneous business is carried out by the judge? — Yes. 
 3S27. Is not that a very important part of the duty ? — Yes. 
 
 3828. And a very laborious |)art of it ? — It is. 
 
 3829. And one which requires a very correct knowledge of the manners and 
 customs of the people very often ? — Of course. 
 
 3830. What would you consider to be a fair proportionate remuneration for a 
 0.10. Z ^ Z native
 
 374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. Pcstujee.Esn. native judge, in comparison with an Ennlish judge; shoulil it be half, or two- 
 
 thirds, or what amount would vou fix on as a fair remuneration ? — I should say 
 
 2 May 1853. that, on account of the inadequate salary at present given to native members 
 of the judicial and other brunches of the service, many persons of the superior 
 classes lire deterred from entering it. I tliink if they were adequately paid you 
 would tind that many persons of respectability in the higher classes would 
 willingly join the Company's service ; 1 should say ;hat, in order to render them 
 independent of other pursuits, the salary of the highest of the native judges 
 should be at least 1,200 or l,.500 rupees a month. 
 
 3S31. You mean the principal sudder ameen ? — Yes. 
 
 3832. That would be about half the salary of an English judge? — About 
 half. 
 
 3^33- Do not you think tliat, taking into consideration the much greater charges 
 which a European must be subject to in living in India, and the still more heavy 
 expense which constantly comes upon him in consequence of his being obliged to 
 send his family to Engiand, and bring them back again, sometimes once or twice 
 during his service, and maintaining his family in England, his expenses must be 
 more tljun doul)le diat of a native judge? — I should say tiiat they are, but at the 
 same time vou will find that among the natives themselvts, they marry and have 
 a lar^e tamily in early life; there is no pension left to their widows at their death; 
 they are now entirely dependent upon their small salary ; formerly the uncove- 
 nunted service were entitled to a pension from the Warden Official Fund, which 
 was abolished by the Government, and a superannuation pension \\as substituted. 
 By that a member of the uncovenanted service, after a certain period, is entitled 
 to half of the amount, and their widows and children remain unprovided for. 
 Any [lerson taking employment in the Government service should have no con- 
 nexion with any trade or other pursuits; he should be dependent u|ion his office 
 only, in order to give satisfaction to the people and to the Government ; besides 
 lie should be able to make provision for his family in case of death. You will find 
 that accoiding to Hindoo usage, the widow never marries again, and they are 
 therefore utterly destitute of support. 
 
 3834. Is there any provision made by the CJovernment for the widows and 
 ciiildrcn ot the covenanted officers of the Government? — They are handsomely 
 paid, and they retire on i,ouo /. alter a certain period of service ; their widows 
 me provided for from that fund ; the uncovenanted servants have no such fund. 
 
 3835. How is the fund provided? — I think the service subscribes to it. 
 
 3836. Then it is not established out of their own earnings? — It is ; the natives 
 were subsciibing to the \\ arden Official Fund, but it was abolished. 
 
 3837. Is not the civil fund created by deductions from the salaries of the civil 
 service itself? — It is. 
 
 3838. Then they derive no benefit from any Government contribution, as far as 
 the civil hmd is concerned? — I think not. 
 
 3839. As rt'gards the 1,000/. a year to vviiich you allude, do not the civil 
 service also subscribe a large portion (;f the funds necessary to provide tnat ?^ 
 They do, and I should wish that a fund, on the same principle, should be esta- 
 i)lished for the natives; they are willing to subscribe toil. 
 
 3840. C/i airman.^ You stated, in the beginning of your evidence, that you 
 thought the administration of justice uas not satisfactory in Bombay, and you 
 instanced llie evils arising from delays; is that the onlv ground of your objection 
 to the present administration of justice? — The delay, and what I have said about 
 the presiding judges not being acquainted with the language and the customs of 
 the i)e()ple. The procedure of the court, also, is a very tedious and long one ; I 
 tiiink that that slioidd be ret'ormed, and that such retorm should be effected by 
 the local government. 
 
 3841. Mr. Elliot J\ Mow many languages would it be necessary for a judge at 
 Boml>a\' to be acquainted with in order to be able to go to the various parts of 
 the country and act with the full knowledge of the languasje of each part of the 
 countrv vvbicli you tliink necessary? — Tliree : the Mahratla, the Guzzeratee, and 
 the Canaiese. 
 
 3842. Chairnum.] Have you ever found the judges ignorant of the native 
 langiuige, or do your observations u|)on that subject aj)[)ly to the assi-st. nit judges 
 (mly : — 1 tiiink the judges sometimes are ignorant of the languages in which the 
 proceedings are carried on ; then, of course, they must ask the opinion of the 
 sheristadar. 
 
 3843. Where
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE (>N INDIAN TERRITORIES. 375 
 
 3843. Where have you princi])ally resided ? — Principally in Ronihay and in J . Pestonjee, E^. 
 
 Tannah and Poonah. We liave tauiily property in the Poonah and Taiinah 
 
 collectorate. 2 May 1853. 
 
 3844. Sir T. H. Maddnck.] Of what lan<iuage was the judge ignorant to whom 
 you refier ? — The Mahratta. 
 
 3845. Prol)ahly that same man could speak Hindostanee? — Yes. 
 
 3846. ]\lr. Elliot.] In what language does the judge comnninicate \\ ith the 
 fheristadar when he asks his advice as to what is going on in tlie court? — In 
 Hindostanee ; the papers are read in Mahratta. 
 
 3847. The civil servants generally know Hindostanee, do they not ? — They do. 
 
 3848. What is the reason of their knowing Hindostanee? — Hmdostanee is the 
 prevailing language there ; it is spoken like French on the continent of Europe 
 and in other places. 
 
 3849. How doe? it happen that they know Hindostanee, when Hindostanee is 
 not the language of the country, and yet are ignorant of the language of the 
 country itself? — Hindostanee is not the language in which the proceedings are 
 carried on ; I do not mean that it is not the language of the country ; it. I under- 
 stood Hindostanee only, and I could not read the papers in Mahratta, I couid not 
 possibly judge in such a case. 
 
 38.50. Mr. Hume.] The Committee understand from you that Hindostanee is 
 generally known by all classes, high and low? — By every class ; it is the primitive 
 language, and is spoken throughout India. 
 
 3851. What vou alluded to are the particular languages in which the proceed- 
 ings are carried on in the court ? — Yes. 
 
 3S52. And you sav that the judges have not been sufficiently acc{uainted with 
 those languages for the purpose of carrying on the proceedings of the courts ? — 
 That is so. 
 
 3853. Chairman^ Do you think it would be desirable to promote the native 
 judges to the higher courts of justice ? — I think they are competent to tlie dis- 
 charge of their duty. 
 
 3854. Without the supervision of a European judge? — Yes. 
 
 3855. And without an appeal to a European judge? — All men are subject to 
 errors, and another opinion might be required to see whether anv particular man 
 has gone right or wrong ; there are appeal courts just the same as there are in 
 this country, where the decisions of the lower courts are reversed or confirmed. 
 
 3856. Mr. Hume.'] Have you sufficient confidence in the judgment and inte- 
 grity of the natives to place them as judges in the higher tribunals? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 3857. Do you think the present system g^ives sufficient protection to the native 
 judges to enable them to maintain their independence in the courts in which tiiey 
 are ? — I do, so far as the duties of his office are concerned. 
 
 3858. Are you aware whether the native judges can be dismissed, in case of 
 any complaint, "ithout being tried ? — Not to my knowledge ; some of the moon- 
 sifls have been tried, and have been dismissed. 
 
 3859. Are the Committee to understand that you think there is sufficient pro- 
 tection now given to the native judges in the administration of the duties which 
 they have to perform in those courts ? — I think so. 
 
 3860. They cannot be dismissed without having really committed errors which 
 may be bioughl before the Government? — I do not myself know of a case in 
 which it has been otherwise. 
 
 3861. Sir G. Grey.] Are you aware of any difference in the mode of dismissing 
 a native judge and a European judge? — 1 think the native judges who are dis- 
 missed from the service are first sent to the magistrate upon the charge ; if he 
 thinks the case is proved he sends it to the sessions judge for trial. 
 
 3862. Sir T. H. Maddock.] You stated that you knew of a nioonsift' having 
 been tried : for what was he tried? — He was tried for corruption. 
 
 3863. Was he punished? — He was dismissed the service, and impriscned 
 also. 
 
 3864. Have you ever heard of any case besides that of a moonsiflP being tried 
 yourself? — I think I have not myself. 
 
 3865. Mr. Hume.] Have you ever known a native judge or public officer dis- 
 missed from office for alleged corruption or misconduct, without having had an 
 opportunity of having his case inquired into before the Government tribunals ? — J 
 do not recollect any at present. 
 
 3866. Chairman.] Have you had any opportunities of observing iiow the 
 0.10. 3 A 4 magistrates
 
 3-6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. Pettjiijce, E&q. maoistrates peiform that duty? — 1 tliink they do it satisfactorily, but I sliould 
 
 wish to see some rel'oimatiou in tlie procedure of the niaiiistrates. The magis- 
 
 2 May 1853. tiate generally remains at the Sudder station for a certain period of the year, 
 and at a certain tiuie he yoes on circuit, Tiie pohce aumiidars have no authority 
 to try cases of minor otVences. I can state souie instauces. If a crime is com- 
 mitted in any of the villaiies, the paiell or officer of the police sends the case 
 liefore the police aumildar, who takes the depositions of all persons connected 
 with the case, and sends them to the cutcherry of the magistrate, in whatever part 
 of the district he may b'. Sometimes it happens that tliose witnesses are com- 
 pelled to make a journey of five or six days, and that frequently liappens at times 
 which should be devoted to the collection of the harvest or seed sowing ; so that 
 they are averse to such a journey. Besides that, the allowance which is given to 
 those persons is very trifling. They have about 3 d. a day subsistence money. 
 They are detained sometimes 10, 15, or 2f> days at the collector's cutcherry. If it 
 be found that the magistrate makes out a case tor committal, they are bound 
 to appear before the sessions judge, and are obliged to undertake another 
 journey. Thus they are kept out of their occupations. I apprehend that many 
 cases of crime are not tried for want of evidence, and the objects of" the law- 
 have thus been frustrated. I sliould reconmiend that in whatever part of the 
 district a crime is committed the parties should be examined there by the police 
 aumildar, and if he thinks that the case should be sent to the sessions judtje, he 
 should detain the prisoners connected with the case in the talookahs, and the 
 judge should go on circuit to decide all such cases, as the judges here do. 
 
 3867. Would you recommend that the sessions judge should only occasionally 
 leave his station, or that he should have fixed circuits ? — That he should go 
 round periodically. 
 
 38118. Would that involve much additional expense? — Not very much, I should 
 think, when you com|)are the grievances and the frustration of the law which now 
 take place. 
 
 3869. Except in the cold weather, would not it be very difficult for the sessions 
 judge to make a circuit of that description? — I do not think so; because the 
 collectors and matiistrates and their assistants travel in their districts throughout 
 the year, with the exception of three or four months of the rainy season, during 
 uhieli they remain at the Sudder station. 
 
 3870. Mr. IIui/ic] Are the Committee to understand that the delay, expense 
 and trouble attendant upon sending witnesses from the talooks up to the head 
 station, are much more serious considerations than the trouble of the juc'ge going 
 on circuit to the diti'erent places, and trying those cases? — I think it is. 
 
 3871. Your object in desiring those cases to be tried in the talooks, and 
 places where the offences are committed, is to save the time and trouble of the 
 parties and the witnesses?- — Yes. 
 
 3872. You would prefer a local tribunal for offences of that kind ? — Yes. 
 
 3873. Mr. Elliot.'] What is, generally speaking, the extent of a magistrate's 
 jurisdiction ? — I should say about 80 or 90 miles. 
 
 3874. You say that the parties have to be sent to a great distance before they 
 can get to :i magistrate? — Yes. 
 
 3875. Supposing a magistrate to be on circuit at one end of his district, 80 
 miles in length, and to be detained there for three months, will not the distance to 
 him 1)0 increased twofold from all the rest of his district? — I do not say that the 
 magistrate siiould go. 1 recommend that the sessions judge should go on circuit 
 to try the committed cases; assistant collectors and magistrates reside in their 
 own talookahs, so that they can investigate the cases, and if they find a case for 
 committal to the sessions judije, summarily send it or ileal with it ; even a case 
 of a most trivial nature, the police aumildar now sends to the magistrate; suppose 
 any pei>on is found Mith a small que.utity of spirit, the police aumildar is not 
 authorised to adjudicate that case; he must send the man with the witnesses to 
 the magistrate ; and sometimes the man may lie fined 2 or 3*., and the property is 
 confiscated. 
 
 3^7(3. '^'(iu would not have all those petty cases kept for the sessions judge? 
 — No, they should be disposed of summarily; power should be given to the local 
 officers, the police aumildar, and the assi-taut magistrates to dispose of them. 
 
 3877. Mr. IIume.2 What is the salary of the police aumildar to whom you 
 would give that authority ? — From 90 to 200 rupees; he is also a mamhttdar, and 
 combines the duties of both revenue and police. 
 
 3878. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 377 
 
 3878. Is it your opinion that that officer shoiikl liave the power of deciding /_ Pestonjee, Esq. 
 
 summarily all such cases as he thinks can be so disposed of? — I do not think that 
 
 cases of felony, or important cases, should be submitted to him, but minor cases 2 May 1853. 
 I think should be. 
 
 3879- Mr. Elliot.'] To what extent would you give him that jurisdiction ? — I 
 think that he should have the power to try such cases as are liable to fine or mu 
 prisonment for two months or six months. 
 
 3880. You would have a prison at every aumildar's cutcherry or station ? — 
 I think they have a prison. 
 
 3881. Mr. Hume.] Are you able to state whether that plan of having a sum- 
 mary juriadiction in the different localities would give satisfaction to the natives 
 generally ? — I think it would. 
 
 3882. Sir T. H. Maddock.] In that case, would you allow persons who were 
 punished to appeal to the sessions judge, when he came the circuit, against the 
 proceedings of the aumildar? — If he exceeded his authority in any way, but not 
 in the case of trivial oflences. If a man has six months' imprisonment, and he 
 thinks he is wrongly condemned, he might have his appeal. 
 
 3883. In case a man complained before this officer of an offence, and this 
 officer did not punish the party against whom he complained, would you in that 
 case allow him to appeal to a European judge ? — I do not think it is necessary. 
 
 3884. Mr. Hume.'] Do you mean to state that the present mode of adminis- 
 tering justice, and settling those complaints to which you are now alluding, is 
 objected to by the people ? — It is. 
 
 3885. And it is to remove those objections that you think the system of local 
 jurisdiction ought to be adopted? — Yes. 
 
 3886. Do those observations, with regard to the salaries of the native judges, 
 apply to the case that you have last spoken of? — Yes. 
 
 3887. Mr. Elliot.] In important cases you would have the aumildar try the 
 case in the first instance, and if it were a serious case and seemed to warrant a 
 committal, he should commit the man till the sessions judge came round to try 
 him ? — Yes. 
 
 3888. But minor cases he would have jurisdiction to decide, and to punish the 
 offender? — Yes. 
 
 3889. In that case, what business would go to the magistrate? — The magis- 
 trates would try other offences, such as cases of felony. In some cases the magis- 
 trate is authorised to award imprisonment for 12 months. 
 
 3890. I understand you to say that in all serious cases, the aumildar should 
 commit the offender, and that he should be kept at the aumildar station till the 
 sessions judge made his circuit ; if that be so, what cases would you send to the 
 magistrate? — Those cases which I think should be adjudicated by the aumildar 
 are cases of common assault ; the graver offences beyond those cases should be 
 sent to the magistrate for his adjudication. 
 
 3891. Mr. Hume.] Do you think there would be any difficulty in rules being 
 laid down, for the purpose of arranging the different classes of offences, which 
 might be tried by the one court, or sent to other courts? — No. 
 
 3892. Previously to carrying out the plan, would you suggest a power of division 
 or classification of the different offences, in order that each party might know 
 before whom the decision would take place ? — Yes. 
 
 3893. Chairman.] Is it your opinion that the Acts of the Legislative Council 
 meet the wants of the people of India in general ? — Not generally, I think, because 
 the people have no voice in the Council in making the drafts of the Acts ; the 
 proceedings are carried on with closed doors ; in some respects the Legislative 
 Council have passed Acts against the customs and usages which the people have 
 hitherto enjoyed, and against their rights, sacred and moral, which were guaranteed 
 by the British Parliament. What is generally known in India by the name of the 
 Missionary Act gives a great deal of offence to the natives, on account of their 
 rights having been violated by its operation ; that Act I believe interfered with 
 the principle of their religion to a very great extent. When any member of the 
 Hindoo community renounces his religion, he is considerd like a man that is dead, 
 they perform his religious obsequies, and his family have no connection whatever 
 with him ; but by the above Act the ancestral property is forced to be given up to 
 that person, which is against the law of their religion and country. If a peer of 
 the realm in this kingdom abrogated his religion, and embraced the faith of a 
 
 0.10. 3 B Mahomedan,
 
 378 MINUTES :— SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 J. Pestonjee, Esq. Mahomedan, it would be a question wliether he would be allowed to possess and 
 
 enjoy the right and privilege which his ancestors had had. 
 
 2 May 1853. 3894. What means would you adopt to prevent laws passed by the Legislative 
 
 Council, being contrary to the feelings and habits of the natives ? — I think the 
 opinions of the natives slioukl be taken by the Legislature ; I think before an 
 Act was passed, there should be some means of giving publicity to it throughout 
 India. I do not recollect the facts now, but I was told when I was last in Calcutta 
 that many translations were published after the Act was actually passed ; if I had 
 a file of the Government Gazette I could find that out. 
 
 3895. AVhat you would propose, would be that the laws which were intended 
 to be issued, should be published and made known before they came into operation ? 
 — Yes, and that the parties should be heard by their counsel before the Legislative 
 Council. 
 
 3896. Mr. Elliot.] Do your observations on the administration of justice in 
 India, refer simply to the Bombay Presidency ? — Yes. 
 
 LIST
 
 [ 371) ] 
 
 APPENDIX, 
 
 LIST OF THE APPENDIX. 
 
 Appendix, No. 1. 
 
 Js'o. 1. — Account of the Land Customs Revenue received in the North- Western Provinces, in 
 each of the Three Years preceding the coming into Operation of Act XIV. of 1843, and in each 
 subsequent Year; together with a Statement of the Charges of the Land Customs EstabHshment 
 on that Frontier in each Year - - - - - - - - - -p. 381 
 
 No. 2. — Statement of the Number of Chests of Opium sold at each Sale, of the Average Price of 
 each (Chest) kind, and of the Total Proceeds of each Sale, and of the Sales in each Year of Cehar 
 and Benares Opium, fioni the Month of January 183.5 to the end of the Year 1851 " P* 3^- 
 
 No. 3 Statement of the Total Proceeds of the Sales in each Year of Behar and Benares Opium, 
 
 from the Month of January 1835 to the end of the Year 1851 (including the Sales to the French 
 Government, or Adjustments resulting out of those Sales) - - - - - P- 385 
 
 No. 4. — Statement of the Total Sum received for Opium Passes in each Year from 1834 to 1851, 
 and of the Rate at which such Passes have been Sold in each Year ; showing also the Authority 
 by which such Rate was fixed -...--. .--p. 385 
 
 No. 5. — Statement of Charges in each Year in regard tn Opium Sold and to Opium 
 Passes - p. 386 
 
 No. 6. — Statement of the Total Revenue derived from Salt at each Presidency in each Year from 
 1834 to 1851, showing the Gross Receipts and Charges, and distinguishing the several Sources 
 from which such Revenue has been derived ; whether from Sales, or from Sea or Land Customs; 
 showing, also, the several Rates of Duty levied at different I'eriods and Places, and the several 
 Prices fixed for the Sale of Salt at different Places -------p. 386 
 
 No. 7 Statement of the Annual Jumnia of Lands sold in each of the last Ten Years, on 
 
 Account of Arrears of Revenue; the Amount of such Arrears; the Total Sum produced by 
 such Sales, and the Number of Cases in which such Sales have taken place, as far as the same 
 can be ascertained ..--.--..-.-p. 389 
 
 Appendix, No. 2. 
 
 Return of the Number of War Steamers, not Vessels of the Regular Indian Navy, belonging to and 
 under the Bengal Government, in each of the hist Ten Years, viz. the " Phlegethon," " Pluto," 
 " Nemesis," and " I^roserpine," and other Vessels; stating the Size and Equipment of each 
 Vessel, and the Charge for the same in each Year, distinguishing the Cost of Hull and Rigging, 
 and the Victualling, and the Charge for Hay and Allowances in each Ship, in each Year, stating 
 how paid and charged in the Accounts of the Bengal Presidency - - - " P- 39*^ 
 
 (A.) — Statement showing the Periods of Employment of the War Steamers of the Bengal Presi- 
 dency in the Royal Service, fmm ist May 1840 to 30th April 1852, with the Sums debited in 
 the Books of the Accountant of Bengal to ■' Her Majesty's Colonial Government, Hong Koug," 
 for thfc AVear and 'I'ear of the Vessels, at the rate of Ten per Cent, on the Cost of Block and 
 Rigging --.. p. 400 
 
 (B.) — A brief History of tho Employment of the Sea Steamers belonging to the Bengal Presi- 
 dency, from 1841-42 to 1850-51 ..........p. 401 
 
 (C.) — Regulations for the Guidance of Commanders, Officers, and Engineers, &c. attached to the 
 Government Steam Vessels -.-...--.--p. 404 
 
 (D.) — Regulations for Manning, Promotion, and Services of the Steamers on the Bengal Esta- 
 blishment .---.--.....-.p. 40C 
 
 (E.) — Statement showing the Names and Stations of Ofiicers whose Conduct formed the Subject of 
 Inquir}' and Report to Government, from 1841-42 to 1850-51 - - - - - p. 408 
 
 Ap|)endix, No. 3. 
 Criminal Justice, 1833 : 
 
 Bengal (Lower Provinces) ------.....p. 409 
 
 North-Western Provinces ----•-......p. 409 
 
 Fort St. George -- p. 409 
 
 Bombay p. 410 
 
 0.10. 3 C
 
 38o APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 3 — continued. 
 
 (.'riniinal Justice, 1849: 
 
 Bengal - - - - - - - - - - - - - -p. 410 
 
 Xorth-Western Provinces - - - - - - - - - - -p. 410 
 
 Fort St. George --- .....p. 410 
 
 Bombay - - - - - - - - - - - - - -j). 411 
 
 Civil Justii-e, 1833 — 1849: 
 
 Bengal (Lower Provinces) - - - - - - - - - - -p. 411 
 
 North-Western Provinces - - - - - - - - - - -p. 411 
 
 Madras - - - - - - - - - - - - - -p. 412 
 
 Bombay --.-.---.---.-p. 412 
 
 Appendix, No. 4. 
 
 Account of the Number of Officers and Men composing tlic Military Force of the Three Presi- 
 dencies of India in each Year, from 1828 to 1851 inclusive, and the Amount of the Military 
 Charges of India defrayed in each of those Years - - - - - - -p. 413 
 
 Appendix, No. 5. 
 
 St:itcnient of the Names o( the Districts in India coming under the denomination " Non- 
 Regulation" p. 414 
 
 Appendix, No. 6. 
 
 Paper delivered in by David Hill, Esq., 10 March 1853 : 
 
 Comparative Table of Causes instituted in the late Court of Requests, from May to September 
 1849; and in the Court of Small Causes, from May to September 1850 - - p. 415 
 
 Return of Causes instituted in the Court of Small Causes, from May to September 
 1850 p. 415 
 
 Appendix, No. /• 
 
 Petitions referred to the Select Committee on Indian Territories, Session 1852-33 - - ?• 416 
 
 Appendix, No. 8. 
 
 Return of the Amount of tlie Salary and Allowances Paid in each Year to the Law Commissioner 
 or Membir of the Council of India, and the Aggrej^ate Amount; staling also the Names of 
 crich L;iw Comnii>iioner, and the l)at(;s of A|)p(iintmeMt and of Rcsigiiatinn, and the Period for 
 which each Commissioner served ill the CounL-il, under the Act of 1833 - - - P- SH 
 
 Appendix, No. 9. 
 
 Copy of the Report of the Law Commission in 1838, on the Institution Fee on Suits of Law in 
 Si ysore, niiide to Lord Auckland; al.-o, Copy of (he Act priparcd by the L.tw Comniissioiiers 
 in 1840, lor the mtruduction of the £ni;li&h Law into India generally, as raoditied by the Com- 
 mittbion - - - - - - - - - - - - - -p-,'")i5 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. 
 
 Copies of the Coirfsnondcnre, or F.xtracts of Correspondence and Papers between the Board of 
 C. ntn 1, the C ouit of Dirccti'is, and the Goveninicnt of India, respecting the Kourtli or Legis- 
 lative Member of Council whili- other than Legislative Matters are under consiJcratiun p. 515 
 
 Appendix, No. 1 1 . 
 
 Papers relating to the licmoval of Mr. Lowin from ilie Office of Judge of the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut, also from his Provisional .Aipoinlment to Council - - - - • P- 54^
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 381 
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
 Appendix, No. 1 
 
 No. 1. — ACCOUNT of the Land Customs Revenue received in the North-Wcstern Provinces Appendix, No. 
 in each of the Three Years preceding the coming into Operation of Act XIV. of 1843, and in —~~ 
 
 each subsequent Year ; together with a Statement of the Charges of the Land Customs Estab- 
 lishment on that Frontier in each Year. 
 
 LAND CUSTOMS REVENUE. 
 
 From all Salt. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 From 
 other Articles. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 TOTAL. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 Previously to the Operation of Act XIV. of 1843 : 
 
 1840-41 
 1841-42 
 184-2-43 
 
 24,73,2CG 
 27,10,953 
 25,37,057 
 
 20,80,991 ■ 4.5,63,217 
 
 19,39,363 
 
 46,50,316 
 
 18,84,892 44,21,949 
 
 Subsequently to the Act : 
 
 1843-44 - 
 1844-45 - 
 1845-40 - 
 1846-47 - 
 1847-48 - 
 
 36,17,623 I 15,73,266 
 
 48,95,202 ! 12,54,711 j 61,49,913 
 
 38,66,750 15,20,474 | 53,87,224 
 
 53,41,887 i 13,65,781 
 
 49,27,887 
 
 1848-49 - 46,68,983 
 
 1849-50 - 
 1850-51 - 
 
 54,82,097 
 39,72,675 
 
 13,02,137 
 10,86,858 
 13,33,682 
 
 67,07,668 
 62,30,024 
 57,55,841 
 68,15,779 
 
 14,14,600 53,87,275 
 
 CHARGES. 
 
 At Allahabad 
 on Salt. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 29,612 
 29,131 
 
 On other Salt, 
 and 
 
 other Articles. 
 
 30,326 6,00,,585 
 
 31,156 
 1,12,557 
 91,554 
 94,816 
 1,01,678 
 1,03,341 
 1,02,287 
 1,04,260 
 
 Cv.'s Rs. 
 
 6,47,870 
 6,32,152 
 
 5,94,933 
 6,48,290 
 6,06,955 
 7,33,177 
 8,05,469 
 8,55,-509 
 7,83,278 
 7,80,435 
 
 TOTAL. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 6,77,482 
 6,61,283 
 6,30,911 
 
 6,26,089 
 7,60,847 
 6,98,509 
 8,27,993 
 9,07,147 
 9,58,830 
 8,85,565 
 8,84,693 
 
 0.10. 
 
 C -2 
 
 No.
 
 38c 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 No. 2. — STATEMENT of the Numbi.r of Chlsts of Opium sold at each Sale, of the AvkuA(;f. Pricu of each 
 (Chest) kind, and of the Toi al Pkoceeds of each .Sale, and of the S.^les in each Yeai- of Behar and Benares 
 OriUM, from tlie Month of January 183.5 to the end of the Year 1851. 
 
 SALE. 
 
 1835: 
 
 First - 
 Second 
 Tliird - 
 fourth 
 
 NUMBEK OF CHEST.S 
 OF OPIUM. 
 
 AVERAGES. 
 
 Behar. 
 
 3,.>00 
 1,500 
 1,007 
 1,713 
 
 Benares. Total. 
 
 Behar. 
 
 Benares. 
 
 PROCEEDS OF E.\Cn SALE. 
 
 8,380 
 
 1,500 
 500 
 793 
 
 1 ,554 
 
 5,000 
 2,000 
 2,400 
 3,267 
 
 Co.'sRs. a. 
 
 I 1,055 14 
 
 ' 1,228 8 
 
 1,176 15 
 
 1 1,140 - 
 
 Co.-s Ms. 
 
 II. p. 
 
 4,347 
 
 12,727 
 
 1,045 9 11 
 
 1,154 15 9 
 
 1,120 15 7 
 
 1,078 14 7 
 
 Behar. 
 
 Benares. 
 
 ! 
 Total. 
 
 Co.-t Us. 
 
 30,95,000 
 18,42,800 
 19,01,974 
 19,63,179 
 
 CoV. lis. 
 
 15,08,427 
 5.77,493 
 
 8,88,933 
 10,70,029 
 
 Co:s Rs. 
 
 52,64,027 ' 
 24.20,293 i 
 28,50,907 ' 
 00,39,808 ! 
 
 General 
 
 Average 
 
 of eacli Sale 
 
 per Chest. 
 
 Co.'sRs. a. /I. 
 
 1,052 12 II 
 1,210 2 4 
 1,158 14 
 1,114 1 ID 
 
 94,03,553 I 47,11,482 | 1,41,75,035 
 
 18.30: 
 
 First - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Fourth 
 
 4,500 
 
 070 
 
 1 ,025 
 
 2,901 
 
 2,000 
 
 030 
 
 I,1.J0 
 
 1,568 
 
 0,500 
 1,300 
 2,475 
 4,469 
 
 1,255 9 
 1,389 5 
 1,310 7 
 1,301 14 
 
 1 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 1,221 6 
 1,250 11 
 1,200 9 
 1 .227 9 
 
 2 
 
 5 
 
 9 
 
 50,50.050 
 
 9,30,850 
 
 17,30,375 
 
 39,50,900 
 
 24,42,775 
 
 7,87,950 
 13,87,5.30 
 19,24,890 
 
 80,92,825 
 17,18.800 
 31,23,925 
 58,75,850 
 
 1 ,245 I - 
 1,322 2 5 
 1,202 3 1 
 1,314 12 10 
 
 
 9,390 
 
 5,348 
 
 14,744 
 
 1,22,68,235 
 
 65,43,165 
 
 1,88,11,400 
 
 
 1837: 
 
 First - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Fourth 
 
 4,970 
 1,500 
 1,400 
 3,043 
 
 1,993 
 990 
 979 i 
 
 2,003 
 
 0,963 
 2,490 
 2,385 i 
 5,100 ■ 
 
 1,012 7 
 1,591 13 
 1,622 11 
 
 1,448 1 
 
 3 
 7 
 3 
 3 
 
 1,459 2 
 1,442 13 
 1.445 3 
 1,240 7 
 
 8 
 3 
 
 80,13,900 
 23,87,775 
 22,81, .320 
 44,00,505 
 
 29,08,325 
 14,28,400 
 14,15,565 
 25,59,030 
 
 1.09,22,225 
 '38,10,175 
 30,97.085 
 09,05,535 
 
 1,568 9 8 
 1,532 9 7 
 1,206 9 - 
 1,364 3 - 
 
 
 10,919 
 
 0,025 1 
 
 10,944 i 
 
 1,70,89,700 
 
 83,11,320 
 
 2,54,01,020 
 
 — 
 
 1838: 
 
 First - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Fourth 
 Vifth - 
 
 4,520 
 1,452 
 2,480 
 1.375 
 2,294 
 
 2,350 
 798 
 
 1,500 
 000 
 
 1,4.58 
 
 0,870 
 2,250 
 3,980 
 1,975 
 3,752 
 
 781 10 
 710 9 
 081 7 
 702 9 
 989 1 
 
 8 
 
 5 
 4 
 
 8 
 
 090 14 
 611 4 
 534 7 
 552 2 
 913 - 
 
 8 
 
 10 
 
 2 
 
 1 
 
 35,33,150 
 10,31,780 
 10,90,025 
 9,66.050 
 22,09,010 
 
 10,23,050 
 4,87,820 
 8,01,075 
 8,31,275 
 
 13,31,245 
 
 51.50,800 
 15,19,000 
 24.91,700 
 12,97,325 
 30,00,255 
 
 7-30 8 10 
 675 - 
 620 - 11 
 656 13 11 
 959 - 8 
 
 
 12,121 
 
 0,700 
 
 18,827 
 
 94,90,015 
 
 45,75,605 
 
 1,40,05,080 
 
 
 1839: 
 
 Firct - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 l-onrth 
 fth - 
 
 4,405 
 1,470 
 2,940 
 1,430 
 2,292 
 
 2,500 
 
 1,000 
 
 400 
 
 980 
 
 780 
 
 6,905 
 2,470 
 3,340 
 2,410 
 3,078 
 
 839 2 
 C88 14 
 365 1 
 235 6 
 282 11 
 
 1* 
 -1 
 11 
 8i 
 91 
 
 732 7 
 G20 2 
 390 8 
 190 11 
 803 12 
 
 91 
 
 4 
 Oil 
 
 37,40,725 
 
 10,12,650 
 
 10,73,450 
 
 3,30,050 
 
 6,48,035 
 
 18,31,100 
 0,20,17.3 
 1 ,50.200 
 1,92,775 
 2,38,775 
 
 .35,77,825 
 
 16,32,825 
 
 1 2,29,050 
 
 5,29.425 
 
 8,80,810 
 
 800 13 4.V 
 001 I -" 
 368 3 C 1 
 219 10 10 J 
 288 1 9 1 
 
 
 12,.597 
 
 5,000 
 
 1 8,203 
 
 08,17,510 
 
 30,39,025 
 
 !l,'^,50.535 
 
 — 
 
 184(1: 
 
 Second 
 Tliird - 
 Fourth 
 Fiflli - 
 
 4,000 
 
 2,5110 
 1,300 
 1,019 
 
 2,000 
 800 
 
 2.000 
 700 
 
 1,089 
 
 (J.OOO 
 2,350 
 4,500 
 2,000 
 2,708 
 
 437 14 
 610 8 
 539 10 
 043 15 
 730 9 
 
 5 
 3 
 3 
 
 4i 
 
 -i 
 
 413 9 
 .WO 13 
 .503 11 
 027 10 
 (i80 I 
 
 7 
 11 
 10.1 
 
 17,51,000 
 9,40,300 
 
 13,49,100 
 8,37,1.30 
 
 11,92,500 
 
 8,27,200 
 4,40.050 ' 
 9,83,380 ! 
 4,39,375 
 
 7,47,385 
 
 25,78,,800 
 13,80,950 
 23.32,480 
 12,70,525 
 19,39,885 
 
 429 12 9 
 590 3 ~ ■ 
 518 5 3 
 638 4 2 } 
 7UJ 5 7 J 
 
 
 10,009 
 
 0,589 
 
 17,558 
 
 60,70,650 } 
 
 34,37,990 
 
 95,14,040 
 
 — 
 
 f-il : 
 
 ;.r,l - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Ton 71 h 
 Fifth - 
 
 3,945 
 !,:;45 
 2,935 
 1,315 
 2,805 
 
 1 ,995 
 700 
 
 \,:m) 
 
 700 
 I,2H7 
 
 0,182 
 
 5,940 
 2,045 
 4,435 
 2,015 
 4,092 
 
 18,527 
 
 795 14 
 752 14 
 604 6 
 733 6 
 08;i 7 
 
 31 
 81 
 8 3 
 10 
 71 
 
 098 11 
 000 14 
 029 10 
 009 2 
 000 - 
 
 4 
 
 3i 
 8 
 
 3 1 
 9 
 
 3i,;i9,,soo 
 
 10,12,075 i 
 
 19,50,075 
 
 9,04,375 
 
 19,17,1.50 1 
 
 13,93.925 
 4,00,825 
 9,44,500 
 4,08,400 
 8,49,480 
 
 1 
 
 45,33,725 
 I4,79,5('0 
 28 94.575 ' 
 14,32,775 
 27,60,030 1 
 
 1,31,07,205 
 
 763 4 -J 
 723 7 i 
 G52 10 7 ,' 
 711 - 101 
 070 1 8 1 
 
 
 13,34.'i 
 
 80,84,075 
 
 41,2.3,130 
 
 —
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 SS.-i 
 
 
 M'MBKlt (Jl- CllKSTS 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <-icner:il 
 
 
 
 OF OPIUM. 
 
 A VERA (,1 E b. 
 
 I'UUCK 
 
 •:us <ir :;a(; 
 
 H <\u-:. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Vverage 
 
 S A L ]■:. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 of fach Sale 
 
 
 Behur. 
 
 Reuares. 
 
 Total. 
 
 IJi-har. 
 
 Benares. 
 
 Heliar. 
 
 Benares. 
 
 TuT.VL. 
 
 per Cliest. 
 
 1842; 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 Co.'ilis. a. p. 
 
 Co.'.iI{>!. a. p. 
 
 CV/.",v Hs. 
 
 (o.'s J/i. 
 
 ( ■</.■.« n,: 
 
 Co.'x l{s. (I. p. 
 
 first - 
 
 4,000 
 
 1,500 
 
 5,500 
 
 787 9 9 J 
 
 764 7 2 ; 
 
 31,49,9.JO 
 
 11,40,075 
 
 42,90,625 
 
 781 3 3 i 
 
 ■ifcond 
 
 l,:i95 
 
 590 
 
 1,985 
 
 828 9 11 
 
 HIO 2 8 J 
 
 ll,.5."i,925 
 
 4,78,000 
 
 10,33,925 
 
 823 2 2 
 
 riiird - 
 
 '-',89.0 
 
 1,165 
 
 4,060 
 
 785 2 4 
 
 708 4 2i 
 
 22,73,000 
 
 8,95,025 
 
 31,68,025 
 
 780 4 OJ 
 
 Miurth 
 
 1 ,555 
 
 900 
 
 2,455 
 
 840 12 1 
 
 803 2 2 i 
 
 13,07,;!75 
 
 7,22,825 
 
 20,30,200 
 
 826 15 r,l- 
 
 ■ifth - 
 
 •2,924, 
 
 1,138 
 
 4,062 
 18,002 
 
 881 2 5 i 
 
 838 15 7' 
 
 25,70,490 
 
 9,54,755 
 
 35,31,245 
 
 860 5 4 1 
 
 
 12,709 
 
 ! 5,293 
 
 1 
 
 1,04,02,740 
 
 41,97,280 
 
 1 .46.00,020 
 
 — 
 
 1643: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 "irst - 
 
 .•l,4<i5 
 
 1,500 
 
 4,IKi5 
 
 1.450 1 2 J 
 
 1,283 2 11 
 
 .".0,45,:300 
 
 19,24,775 
 
 09,70,075 
 
 1,403 13 5i 
 
 econd 
 
 1,090 
 
 700 
 
 1,790 
 
 1,.30C 9 3J 
 
 1,129 4 - 
 
 14,24,175 
 
 7,90,475 
 
 22,14;050 
 
 1,237 3 9 
 
 'hircl - 
 
 2.035 
 
 1,100 
 
 3,135 
 
 1,247 7 10 J 
 
 1,137 - 8 1 
 
 25,38.050 
 
 12,50,750 
 
 37,89,400 
 
 1,208 11 10 
 
 'ourtli 
 
 l,l(iO 
 
 800 
 
 1,960 
 
 1,510 15 4i 
 
 1,300 7 
 
 17,59,075 
 
 10,88,375 
 
 28,48,0.50 
 
 1,453 1 4' 
 
 'iftl. - 
 
 1,585 
 
 1,309 
 
 2,954 
 
 1,440 2 8 
 
 1,295 14 1 
 
 22,92,175 
 
 17,74,000 
 
 40,66,235 
 
 1 ,370 8 3 4 
 
 
 9,3:55 
 
 5.409 
 
 14,804 
 
 1,30,59,975 
 
 68,28,4:!5 
 
 1,98,88,410 
 
 - 
 
 1844: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 irst - 
 
 4,000 
 
 2,000 
 
 6,000 
 
 1,:362 10 9 J 
 
 1,230 11 2i 
 
 54,.j0.7O0 
 
 24,01,400 
 
 79,12,100 
 
 1,318 10 11 
 
 ocond 
 
 1,490 
 
 700 
 
 2,190 
 
 1.274 - 8l 
 
 1,156 14 10 i 
 
 18,98,:325 
 
 8,09,8.50 
 
 27,08,175 
 
 1,230 9 9 
 
 liinl - 
 
 2,890 
 
 1.300 
 
 4,190 
 
 1,275 3 54 
 
 1,217 11 8i 
 
 30,85,375 
 
 15,83,050 
 
 52,68,425 
 
 1,257 1 
 
 ourtli 
 
 1 ,475 
 
 700 
 
 2.175 
 
 1.383 3 6; 
 
 1,329 3 5 
 
 20,40,250 
 
 9,30,450 
 
 29,70,700 
 
 1,3C5 13 5 
 
 iCtli - 
 
 2,389 
 12,244 
 
 1,100 
 
 3,495 
 
 1,520 2 10 
 
 1,459 9 - i 
 
 .",0,31,705 
 
 10,14,280 
 
 52,45,985 
 
 1,500 15 11 ; 
 
 
 5,800 
 
 18,050 
 
 l,07,00,:rj5 
 
 73,99,0.-;0 
 
 2,41,05,385 
 
 — 
 
 1840: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 irst - 
 
 3,995 
 
 1,800 
 
 ■J, 795 
 
 1,236 - 1 4 
 
 1,007 4 215 
 
 49,37,850 
 
 19,21,075 
 
 08,58,925 
 
 1,183 9 5J 
 
 econd 
 
 1,800 
 
 850 
 
 2,650 
 
 1,253 1 9 J 
 
 1,143 10 95 
 
 22,55,600 
 
 9,72,125 
 
 32,27,725 
 
 1,218 - IJ 
 
 liird - 
 
 3,545 
 
 ],.500 
 
 5,045 
 
 1,418 1 7$ 
 
 1,320 11 2; 
 
 50,27,175 
 
 19,90,050 
 
 70,17,225 
 
 1,:390 14 9 = 
 
 ourtli 
 
 1,775 
 
 850 
 
 2,625 
 
 1,.574 5 2 
 
 1,462 2 9 J 
 
 27,94,425 
 
 12,42,8.50 
 
 40,37,275 
 
 1,538 - 1 J 
 
 ifth - 
 
 3,384 
 
 1,0.38 
 
 5,022 
 
 1,472 13 4 J 
 
 1,372 10 u;; 
 
 49,84,085 
 
 22,48,400 
 
 72,32,545 
 
 1,440 2 9 
 
 
 14,499 
 
 6,638 
 
 21,1:37 
 
 1,99,99,135 
 
 83,74,.500 
 
 2,83,73,095 
 
 — 
 
 1840: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 hrst - 
 
 4,435 
 
 1,970 
 
 6,405 
 
 1,282 4 5 
 
 1,179 3 - 
 
 50,80,900 
 
 23,23,000 
 
 80,09,900 
 
 1,250 9 1 J 
 
 econd 
 
 2,165 
 
 795 
 
 2,960 
 
 1,476 3 4i 
 
 1,:326 10 1 ^ 
 
 31,96,000 
 
 10,54,075 
 
 42..50,075 
 
 1,430 - 7i 
 
 bird - 
 
 3,130 
 
 1,285 
 
 4,415 
 
 1,343 3 lOi 
 
 1,219 1 11 J 
 
 42,04,350 
 
 1 5,00,575 
 
 57.70,925 
 
 1,307 1 10 i 
 
 ourth 
 
 2,190 
 
 800 
 
 2,990 
 
 1,252 3 5 
 
 1,171 13 6 
 
 27,42,3.jO 
 
 9,37,475 
 
 30,79,825 
 
 1.2.30 11 4] 
 
 ifth - 
 
 3,410 
 
 1,552 
 
 4,968 
 
 1,106 - 1 J- 
 
 1,055 15 4i 
 
 .37,78,120 
 
 16,38,855 
 
 54,10,975 
 
 1 ,090 5 1 1 i 
 
 
 15,330 
 
 0,402 
 
 21,7:38 
 
 1,90,07,720 
 
 75,20,580 
 
 2,71,28,3(KI 
 
 — 
 
 1847: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ' 
 
 irst - 
 
 1,390 
 
 715 
 
 2,105 
 
 1,793 5 9 J 
 
 1,320 15 7i 
 
 24,92,775 
 
 9,44,500 
 
 34,37.275 
 
 1,032 14 Oi 
 
 econd 
 
 1,090 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,301 7 5 
 
 1,208 1 2-; 
 
 21,99,475 
 
 9,00,075 
 
 31,00,150 
 
 1,291 8 7i 
 
 hird - 
 
 1,090 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,188 14 11 ,', 
 
 1,158 9 --:; 
 
 20,09,300 
 
 8,28.375 
 
 28,37,675 
 
 1,179 14 6 
 
 ourtli 
 
 1,090 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,193 5 - 
 
 1,171 11 
 
 20,10,700 
 
 8,37,575 
 
 28,54,275 
 
 1,180 12 11 J- 
 
 :Ctli - 
 
 1,090 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,223 8 
 
 1,180 13 5 
 
 20,07,575 
 
 8,44.300 
 
 29,11,875 
 
 1,210 12 1 i 
 
 xtli - 
 
 1,690 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,209 2 3i 
 
 1,100 15 75 
 
 20,43,450 
 
 8,30;i00 
 
 28,73,550 
 
 1,194 13 2 
 
 eventli 
 
 1,090 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,256 7 10 J 
 
 1,217 7 81 
 
 21,23,475 
 
 8,70,500 
 
 29,93,975 
 
 1,244 14 4 
 
 ightli 
 
 1.690 
 
 715 
 
 2,405 
 
 1,300 12 6 J 
 
 1 ,253 9 :; 
 
 21,98,325 
 
 8,90,200 
 
 30,94,525 
 
 1,280 11 3i- 
 
 intli- 
 
 1,085 
 
 724 
 
 2,409 
 
 1,244 8 4i 
 
 1,210 5 Oi 
 
 20,97,025 
 
 8,76,290 
 
 20,73,315 
 
 1,234 4 -• 
 
 
 14,905 
 
 6,444 
 
 21,349 
 
 1,92,48,100 
 
 78,34,515 
 
 2,70,82,015 
 
 — 
 
 1848: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 irst - 
 
 1,830 
 
 780 
 
 2,010 
 
 1,019 11 4» 
 
 903 9 11 A 
 
 18,60,075 
 
 7,51,025 
 
 26,17.700 
 
 1,002 15 2 ! 
 
 econd 
 
 1,825 
 
 780 
 
 2,005 
 
 961 1 9 
 
 912 9-1 
 
 17,54,025 
 
 7,11,800 
 
 24,05,825 
 
 940 9 2 
 
 hird - 
 
 1,820 
 
 780 
 
 2,000 
 
 800 5 U 
 
 810 8 1 
 
 1.5,05,775 
 
 0,30,875 
 
 22,02,050 
 
 847 2 9 
 
 ourth 
 
 1,815 
 
 775 
 
 2,590 
 
 811 14 2I 
 
 778 - - 
 
 14,73,575 
 
 0,02,950 
 
 20,76,525 
 
 801 11 11 I 
 
 ifth - 
 
 1.801) 
 
 775 
 
 2,575 
 
 782 12 2.; 
 
 751 11 lOi 
 
 14,08,975 
 
 5,82,000 
 
 19,91,575 
 
 773 (! 10 
 
 ixth - 
 
 1,7!)0 
 
 775 
 
 2,565 
 
 7.j5 4 8-1- 
 
 720 12 4i 
 
 13,51,975 
 
 5,03.250 
 
 19,15.225 ' 
 
 740 10 9 J 
 
 eveiith 
 
 1 ,795 
 
 780 
 
 2..J75 
 
 835 3 6 f 
 
 789 14 11 I 
 
 ] 4,99,225 
 
 0,10,!. 50 
 
 21, 15.375 
 
 821 8 -J 
 
 .i-hth 
 
 1 ,805 
 
 77.*'^ 
 
 2,580 
 
 807 14 9 
 
 827 3 7-1 
 
 15,00,000 
 
 0.41,100 
 
 22,07,700 
 
 >^o.J 1 1 I ; 
 
 'iuth - 
 
 1,795 
 
 775 
 
 2..570 
 
 899 7 J 
 
 804 7 8 i 
 
 10,14,450 
 
 0,09,975 
 
 22,84.425 
 
 888 14 I 
 
 enth - 
 
 1,805 
 
 780 
 
 2,585 
 
 1,083 15 1 1 
 
 998 13 -i 
 
 19 .jU,525 
 
 7,79,075 
 
 27,35,000 
 
 1,058 14 1 4 
 
 Meventli 
 
 1,805 
 
 780 
 
 2,585 
 
 949 8 10:; 
 
 804 15 5 1 
 
 17,13,9.J0 
 
 0,74,075 
 
 23,88.025 
 
 924 - G J- 
 
 welftli 
 
 1,300 
 
 447 
 
 1,7.03 
 
 803 13 - 
 
 820 12 Oi 
 
 11,23,140 
 
 3,00,890 
 
 14,95,030 
 
 8.52 13 5; 
 
 
 21,191 
 
 9,002 
 
 :30,193 
 
 1,88.99,290 
 
 75,90,905 
 
 2,04,90,255 
 
 — 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3 c3 
 
 {continued)
 
 3^4 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPOPx-T FROIM THE 
 
 SAL E. 
 
 1849: 
 
 First - 
 S<»coiid 
 Third - 
 
 Founii 
 
 Fifth - 
 Sixth - 
 Seventh 
 Eightli 
 Ninth - 
 Tenth - 
 Flcventh 
 Twelfth 
 
 1850: 
 
 First - 
 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Fourth 
 Fifth - 
 Sixth - 
 Seveatli 
 Eighth 
 Ninth - 
 Tenth - 
 Eleventh 
 Twelfth 
 
 1851: 
 
 First - 
 Second 
 Third - 
 Fourth 
 Fifth - 
 Sixth - 
 Seventh 
 Eighth 
 Xinth - 
 Tenth - 
 Eleventli 
 Twelfth 
 
 - I 
 
 NUMBER OF CHESTS 
 OF OPIUM. 
 
 Behar. , Benares. Total. 
 
 2,220 
 2,220 
 2,206 
 2,200 
 2,IGo 
 2,150 
 2,170 
 2,100 
 2,181 
 2,205 
 2,2-20 
 2,207 
 
 820 
 820 
 820 
 820 
 820 
 815 
 820 
 815 
 82U 
 820 
 820 
 812 
 
 2,070 
 2,055 
 1,990 
 2,035 
 2,025 
 2,0G5 
 2,070 
 2,080 
 2,085 
 2,085 
 2,085 
 2,064 
 
 805 
 855 
 865 
 8G5 
 805 
 865 
 865 
 865 
 865 
 865 
 865 
 869 
 
 24,709 10,374 
 
 1,980 
 1,965 
 1,945 
 1,895 
 1,925 
 1 ,975 
 1,960 
 1.980 
 1,045 
 1,950 
 1,975 
 1,074 
 
 890 
 890 
 890 
 890 
 885 
 890 
 890 
 890 
 885 
 890 
 885 
 865 
 
 .3,040 
 3,040 
 3,025 
 3,020 
 2,985 
 2,965 
 2,990 
 3,005 
 3,005 
 3,025 
 3,040 
 3,019 
 
 20,:137 9,822 36,159 
 
 2,935 
 2,910 
 2,855 
 2,900 
 2,890 
 2,930 
 2,935 
 2,945 
 2,950 
 2,950 
 2,950 
 2,933 
 
 35,083 
 
 I AVER .\ (; E S. 
 
 PROCEEDS OF EACH SALE. 
 
 I General 
 
 Behar. 
 
 Co.'i Us. 0- ?• 
 
 760 2 10 i 
 
 812 10 4 
 
 838 8 10 i 
 
 937 14 2 
 
 998 - 4 J 
 
 1,052 5 6 J 
 
 1,060 12 8 J 
 
 1,109 8 8 J 
 
 1,059 9 -i 
 
 937 15 1 i 
 
 1,005 5 2i 
 
 1,009 - 4 I 
 
 Benares. 
 
 Co.'s Jis. ti. 
 
 734 3 
 
 804 4 
 
 828 2 
 
 943 11 
 
 1,014 2 
 
 1,024 3 
 
 1,054 13 
 
 1,112 9 
 
 1,054 5 
 
 981 14 
 
 1,006 - 
 
 1,001 7 
 
 BL>har. 
 
 P- 
 3f 
 9i- 
 
 OSl 
 */ 4 
 
 6 
 
 9f 
 8i 
 -f 
 
 2J 
 3 
 
 8J 
 7 
 10 
 
 Benares. 
 
 Co.'s Us. 
 
 16,87,600 
 18,04,075 
 18,4S,o25 
 20,63,3.50 
 21,60,725 
 22,62,5.50 
 23,01,925 
 24,29,900 
 23,16,150 
 21,47,550 
 22,31,825 
 22,26,915 
 
 2,54,79,890 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 6,02,050 
 6,59,525 
 6,79,075 
 7,73,850 
 8,31,625 
 8,34,750 
 8,64,950 
 9,06,750 
 8,64,-550 
 8,05,175 
 8,24,950 
 8,13,210 
 
 A veragc 
 I of each Sair 
 Total. per Chest. 
 
 Co.'s Bs. Co.'s Ss. a. 
 
 22,89,650 
 24,63,600 
 25,27,400 
 28,37,200 
 29,92,350 
 30,97,300 
 31,66,875 
 33,36,650 
 31,79,700 
 29,52,725 
 30,56,775 
 30,40,125 
 
 753 2 
 
 810 6 
 
 835 8 
 
 939 7 
 
 1,002 7 
 
 1,044 9 
 
 1,059 2 
 
 1,110 5 
 
 1,058 2 
 
 976 1 
 
 1.005 8 
 
 1.006 15 
 
 P- 
 
 3: 
 
 4 
 
 4J 
 11 
 
 5 ] 
 lOi 
 
 O 
 
 8 J 
 Si 
 
 94,60,460 
 
 921 7 2 i 
 1,054 6 3 
 1,018 12 3 J 
 1,008 11 11 i 
 1,044 5 4 
 1,011 14 2! 
 
 986 13 4 J 
 1,011 1 8} 
 1,021 3 11 I 
 
 992 7 3 J 
 
 987 4 10 
 942 9 3 i 
 
 940 7 
 1,056 1 
 1,017 
 1,026 10 
 1,053 - 
 1,015 12 
 
 979 9 
 1,001 13 
 1,029 4 10 3 
 
 997 13 3jl 
 1,007 14 2j| 
 
 955 14 10 J 
 
 it 
 11 
 
 5s: 
 
 n\ 
 
 7 
 
 3,49,40,350 
 
 I 
 
 19,07,400 
 
 21,66,775 
 
 20,27,350 j 
 
 2D,.52,800 
 
 21,14,775 ! 
 
 20,89,550 I 
 
 20,42,750 i 
 
 20,82,3U0 
 
 21,29,300 
 
 20,69,275 
 
 20,58,525 
 
 8,13,500 
 9,02,975 
 8,80,025 
 8,83,075 
 9,10,875 
 8,78,050 
 8,47,350 
 8,66,600 
 8,90,350 
 8,63,125 
 8,71,835 
 8,30,705 
 
 I 
 
 •J,4n,86,285 
 
 1,01,44,055 
 
 27,20,900 
 30,69,750 ' 
 29,07,375 j 
 29,40,875 1 
 30,25,650 j 
 29,68,200 j 
 28,90,100 
 20,48,900 I 
 30,19,650 
 29,32,400 
 29,30,350 
 27,76,190 
 
 927 - 10 
 
 1,054 14 4 
 
 1,018 5 6 
 
 1,014 1 6 
 
 1,046 15 - 
 
 1,013 - 7 
 
 984 11 
 
 1,001 5 
 
 o -I 
 O I 
 
 1,023 
 994 
 993 
 946 
 
 9 9 
 - 64 
 5 5 
 8 6i 
 
 3,51,30,340 
 
 2,870 
 2,855 
 2,835 
 2,785 
 2,810 
 2,865 
 2,850 
 2,870 
 2,830 
 2,840 
 2,860 
 2,839 
 
 979 10 
 
 924 - 
 873 8 
 901 13 
 912 13 
 
 925 1 
 039 13 
 954 - 
 
 1,005 14 
 916 1 
 987 - 
 
 1,011 4 
 
 6 J 
 11 
 9J 
 2i 
 1 
 
 Hi 
 2J 
 
 4 3 
 
 23,469 I 10,040 
 
 34,10!) 
 
 972 12 11 i 
 
 909 
 
 13 
 
 3J 
 
 861 
 
 4 
 
 2i 
 
 881 
 
 3 
 
 3 5 
 
 871 
 
 2 
 
 ~ -1 
 
 878 
 
 9 
 
 11 ; 
 
 900 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 910 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 957 
 
 14 
 
 6 1 
 
 919 
 
 7 
 
 5J 
 
 934 
 
 14 
 
 2J 
 
 961 
 
 - 
 
 7:] 
 
 - 
 
 10,39,725 
 
 18,15,775 
 
 10,98,4,50 
 
 17,12,7.50 
 
 17,57,175 
 
 18,27,075 
 
 18,42,150 
 
 18,88,950 
 
 19,56,475 I 
 
 18,81,875 
 
 19,49,350 
 
 10,96,280 
 
 8,65,800 
 8,09,750 
 7,66,525 
 7,84,275 
 7,70,950 
 7,81,975 
 ei,0 1,000 
 8,10,350 
 8,47,750 
 8,18,325 
 8,27,375 
 8,31,300 
 
 2,22,60,030 97,15,375 
 
 28,05,525 j 
 26,25,525 ! 
 24,64,975 i 
 24,97,025 I 
 25,28,125 
 26,09,050 I 
 26,43,150 ] 
 26,49,300 I 
 28,04,225 
 27,00,200 I 
 27,76,725 | 
 28,27,580 I 
 
 977 8 
 
 6A 
 
 919 9 
 
 Hi 
 
 869 7 
 
 8 
 
 89(i 9 
 
 6:,' 
 
 899 11 
 
 - 
 
 010 10 
 
 71- 
 
 027 (i 
 
 8 3 
 
 940 8 
 
 41 
 
 990 14 
 
 3;1 
 
 950 12 
 
 4i 
 
 970 14 
 
 11 
 
 995 15 
 
 7", 
 
 3,19,81,405 
 
 Jn 1837 there was a fifth sale ; a resale of cancelled lots and of opium originally reserved for the French Govemnieni.
 
 SELECT COMiMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 385 
 
 No. 3. — STATEMENT or the 'J'cital Paocur.ns of the Sales in each Year of Behur and 
 Benares Opium, from the Month of January 1835 to the end of the Year 1851 (includin-- th« 
 Sales to the From^h Goyernnient, or Adjustments resulting- out of those Sales). 
 
 1835 
 1830 
 1837 
 1838 
 1839 
 1840 
 1841 
 1842 
 1843 
 1S44 
 1845 
 1846 
 1847 
 1848 
 1849 
 1850 
 1851 
 
 SALES OF 
 
 Opium of Season 
 
 Chests Sold. 
 
 Proceeds. 
 
 Averages. 
 
 
 
 Per Chest. 
 
 
 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 Co.'s. Rs. a. p. 
 
 - 
 
 1833-34 
 
 13,027 
 
 1,45,17,204 
 
 1.114 6 3 J 
 
 . 
 
 1834-35 
 
 15,044 
 
 1,92,11,835 
 
 1,277 - S\ 
 
 - 
 
 1835-36 
 
 17,244 i 
 
 2,58,51,386 
 
 1,499 1 9 
 
 . 
 
 1836-37 
 
 19,133 
 
 1,42,98,118 
 
 747 4 10 
 
 
 
 1837-38 
 
 18,563 
 
 99,56,529 
 
 536 5 10 
 
 . 
 
 1838-39 
 
 17,858 
 
 97,14,611 
 
 543 15 10 I 
 
 - 
 
 1839-40 
 
 18,827 
 
 1,33,18,549 
 
 707 8 
 
 - 
 
 1840-41 
 
 18,362 
 
 1,49,06,576 
 
 811 13 -^5 
 
 . 
 
 1841-42 
 
 15,104 
 
 2,03,02,996 
 
 1,344 3 4 J 
 
 . 
 
 1842-43 
 
 18,350 
 
 2,45,28,660 
 
 1,336 11 4* 
 
 . 
 
 1843-44 
 
 21,437 
 
 2,87,94,545 
 
 1,343 3 5 ^ 
 
 . 
 
 1844-45 
 
 22,038 
 
 2,74,93,343 
 
 1,247 8 8 
 
 - 
 
 1845-46 
 
 21,649 
 
 2,74,68,190 
 
 1,268 12 9 
 
 - 
 
 1846-47 
 
 30,493 
 
 2,67,44,630 
 
 877 1 2i 
 
 . 
 
 1847-48 
 
 36,459 
 
 3,52,45,838 
 
 966 11 7 i 
 
 . 
 
 1848-49 
 
 35,383 
 
 3,54,.32,079 
 
 1,001 2^ 
 
 - - ~ 
 
 1849-50 
 
 34,409 
 
 3,22,50,639 
 
 937 4 4i 
 
 \j)j)(iidi.\, Xo. J. 
 
 No. 4.— STATEMENT of the Total Sum Received for Opium Passes in each Year from 1834 to 
 I80I, and of the Rate at which such Passes have been Sold in each Year ; showinn- also the 
 Authority by which such Rate was fixed. 
 
 YEAR. 
 
 1834-35 
 1835..36 
 1836-37 
 1837-38 
 1838-39 
 1839-40 
 1840-41 
 1841-4-2 
 1842-43 
 1843-44 
 1844-45 
 1845-46 
 1846-47 
 1847-48 
 1848-49 
 1843-50 
 1850-51 
 
 Total 
 
 Sum Received for 
 
 Opium Passes. 
 
 Rh pees. 
 12,20,975 
 16,96,000 
 25,01,875 
 15,03,625 
 24,68,125 
 
 2,68,875 
 21,19,125 
 18,35,125 
 30,42,125 
 27,12.600 
 01,45,000 
 37,90,500 
 55,80,000 
 61,94,000 
 66,08,600 
 01,44,000 
 94,44,000 
 
 Rs. 
 
 175 per chest 
 125 per chest 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 200 per chest 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 ditto 
 300 per chest 
 
 ditto 
 400 per chest 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 - - ditto 
 
 Autliority. 
 
 Tlie Government of Bom- 
 hiiy, in communication with 
 the Supreme Government. 
 
 0.10 
 
 3C 4
 
 -,86 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix. No. i. No. 5 STATEMENT of Charges in each Year in regard to Orir.M Sold, and to Opium Passes. 
 
 1 835-36 
 
 1836-37 
 
 1837-38 
 
 1638-39 
 
 1839-40 
 
 1840-41 
 
 1841-42 
 
 184-2-43 
 
 1843-44 
 
 1844-40 
 
 1845-46 
 
 1846-47 
 
 1847-48 
 
 1848-49 
 
 1849-50 
 
 1850-51 
 
 Ueugiil Presidency. 
 
 On Opium 
 Sold (ineluding cost). 
 
 (Behar and Benares.) 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 48,21,765 
 54,95,995 
 65,97,949 
 6G,9-J,188 
 43,85,095 
 54,8:>,272 
 •57,32,888 
 50,56,520 
 60,08,310 
 66,13,011 
 75,22,613 
 78,80,265 
 1,06,45,725 
 1,0.5,67,427 
 95,64,263 
 1,03,47,259 
 
 Bombay Presidency. 
 
 On Opium Passes. 
 (Malwali.) 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 2,00,367 
 
 6,69,757 
 
 3,49,456 
 
 2,05,247 
 
 79,797 
 
 79,047 
 
 7-5,738 
 
 54,627 
 
 71,090 
 
 61,973 
 
 2,23,910 
 
 39,790 
 
 71,727 
 
 1,05,860 
 
 1,05,482 
 
 1,02,262 
 
 No. 6. — STATEMENT of the Total Revenui: derived from Salt at each Presidency in each Year from 1834 to 
 1851, showing- the Gross Receipts and Charges, and distinguishing the sevei'al Sources from which such Revenue 
 has been derived : wliether from Sales or from Sea or Land Customs ; showing, also, tlie several Rates of Dutv 
 levied at different Periods and Places, and the several Prices fi.xod for the Sale of Salt at difterent Places. 
 
 BENGAL PRESIDENCY. 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 1834-35 
 1 x:',rj-3G 
 1836-37 
 ls,37-3S 
 18-38-39 
 ]xr,n-40 
 1840-41 
 IS41-42 
 IK42-4:! 
 1S4.3-4J 
 1.S44-45 
 IS I .-,^4 6 
 1.S46-J7 
 1847-48 
 1848-40 
 1849-.J0 
 IS 50-01 
 
 . S.iLES. 
 
 EXCISE. 
 
 Sea Customs. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 1,79,45,433 
 1,7(!,(;0,395 
 1,50,03,860 
 1,73,03,850 
 2,15,90,373 
 1,8H,62,180 
 1,92,:j6,567 
 
 : 1,92,51,09-2 
 1,86,83,043 
 
 I 1,84,76,471 
 l,88,(i-2,a34 
 1,53,17,711 
 1,64,40,018 
 1,58,72,680 
 1,34,20,700 
 
 I 1,33,50,91,-, 
 1,08,88,495 
 
 Co.'s lU. Co.'s Rs. 
 
 ^ >No imports 
 - - |J 
 
 11,5-2,203 
 
 - I 10,30,640 
 
 6,44,598 
 
 - , iy,34,4.>2 
 
 17,13,381 
 18,45,120 
 -2.i,51,540 
 28,80,350 
 
 - I 27,14,H88 
 
 - I 44,31,05,S 
 
 - I 39,25,544 
 
 - i I l,:!(;,!il 1 
 45,237 I 39,90,083 
 59,075 47,86,645 
 87,500 I 50,86,905 
 
 TOTA L. 
 
 Co.'s R.. 
 1,79,45,433 
 1,76,60,395 
 1,61,56,063 
 1,83,34,490 
 2,2-2,34,071 
 2,01,90,632 
 -2,00,49,951 
 2,10,90,212 
 2,13,34,583 
 2,13,50,827 
 2,1.5,77,722 
 1,97,48,769 
 2,03,65,562 
 2,0l),(t!i,591 
 1,74,62,11(1 
 1,81,0.5,535 
 1,69,6-2,900 
 
 Charges. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 74,83,122 
 51,63,180 
 54,80,217 
 1 53,21,907 
 39,43,070 
 40,09,454 
 44,39,792 
 52,23,054 
 49,31,034 
 57,81,080 
 55,41,141 
 48,4.5,246 
 41,58,685 
 35,08,707 
 31,7(),146 
 31,13,680 
 3.3,29,200 
 
 Rates of Duty, Sec. 
 
 By Regulation XV. of 1825, 
 the sea import dutv ivas 3 sicca 
 rupees per miuind, oi' 82 siccii 
 weight, or tolas, to the sccr, if 
 on a British, and 6 ruj)ecs per 
 maund if on a foreign hottom. 
 Act Xl\ . of 1836, fixed tlic dut> 
 at 3/4 ru))ees per maund of 8(> 
 toli'.s to the seer, wlietlier on :» 
 British or foreign bottom, from 
 the 1st .hine 1836. 
 
 On the Ilth NoveiiilpiM- 1844 
 it WHS reduced to 3 rupees per 
 nuiund ; on the 1st A))ril 1847, 
 to 2 rupees 1-2 annas jier maund ; 
 and on the Ist April 1849, to 
 2 rupees 8 annas per nuiiind. 
 
 Prices
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURITOIUES. 
 
 3^7 
 
 Bengal Presidency— C07/<;nKef/. 
 
 Appendix, No. i. 
 
 Prices fixed for the Sale of Salt at different Placea 
 
 The selling price of salt at the Government Golahs is determined yearly, and the last adjustment 
 is as follows : the price in each instance being equal to the duty of Rs. C. 8. per maund, added to 
 the cost of production, calculated on an average of three years ; viz. — 
 
 Hidgelee Pungah at the Agency Ghauts . - - - 
 Ditto - ditto at Sulkea ------ 
 
 Tumlook - ditto ---••--- 
 24 Pergunnahs - ditto at Sulkea . • - - - 
 Chittagong - ditto ..--.-- 
 Arrakan - ditto at Kyook Phyoo - - - - - 
 
 Ditto - ditto at Chittagong - - - - - 
 
 Cuttack - ditto at Sulkea ------ 
 
 Balasore - ditto at ditto .-.--- 
 Khurdali and Chilka ditto at ditto - - - - - 
 
 Madras Kurkutch at ditto . - - - . . 
 
 From Ist May 1852, per notification, dated 30th April 1852. 
 
 Price 
 ppf 100 Maunds. 
 
 lis. 
 316 
 3-26 
 318 
 357 
 32G 
 302 
 330 
 338 
 325 
 335 
 .308 
 
 NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES. 
 
 TEARS. 
 
 1834-35 
 1835-36 
 1836-37 
 1837-38 
 1838-39 
 1839-40 
 1840-41 
 1841-42 
 1842-43 
 1843-44 
 1844-45 
 1845-46 
 1846-47 
 1847-48 
 1848-49 
 1849-50 
 1850-51 
 
 Land Customs. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 21,28,048 
 22,90,977 
 20,88,753 
 18,70,667 
 30,80,623 
 27,19,769 
 24,73,226 
 27,10,953 
 25,37,057 
 36,17,623 
 48,95,202 
 38,66,750 
 53,41,887 
 49,27,887 
 46,68,983 
 54,82,097 
 39,72,675 
 
 Charges.* 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 4,83,179 
 
 6,92,568 
 
 7,32,088 
 
 7,03,865 
 
 6,76,970 
 
 6,80,785 
 
 6,77,482 
 
 6,61,283 
 
 6,30,911 
 
 6,26,089 
 
 7,60,847 
 
 6,98,509 
 
 8,27,993 
 
 9,07,147 
 
 9,58,850 
 
 8,85,565 
 
 8,84,695 
 
 
 Rates of Duty, &c. 
 
 Up to Act XIV, of 1843, which came into operation 
 on the 1st September 1843, all salt was taxed at one 
 rupee per maund, an additional duty of eight annas per 
 maund on Lahoree, Sumbhur and Doodwana salt having 
 been remitted by the Government on the 1st July 1835. 
 Act XIV, of 1843, imposed a duty of two rupees per 
 maund on crossing the frontier, and a further duty of 
 one rupee per maund on passing eastward of Allahabad. 
 This Allahabad special duty was reduced to 12 annag 
 per maund in July 1847, and to eight annas per maund 
 from the 1st April 1849. By Act XVI, of 1848, no 
 duty is leviable on salt imported into the North-Western 
 Provinces from other provinces of the Bengal Presi- 
 dency. 
 
 * These sums are the amount of charges on the Customs of all kinds in the North-Western 
 Provinces ; a previous Statement shows the only portion of Salt Charges separable from the other, 
 viz., those at Allahabad for the collection of the Special Duty. 
 
 O.JO. 
 
 3l^
 
 388 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Ippendix. No. J. 
 
 FORT ST. GEORGE. 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 Sales. 
 
 1 
 
 Charges. 
 
 Rates of Duty, &c. 
 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 Co.'s Es. 
 
 
 1834-35 
 
 40,08,743 
 
 6,91,970 
 
 
 1835-36 
 
 37,68,372 
 
 6,36,066 
 
 
 1836-37 
 
 37,28,946 
 
 7,70,444 
 
 
 1837-38 
 
 37,92,073 
 
 5,17,995 
 
 The monopoly price in 1834-35 (Fusly 1244) was 
 
 1838-39 
 
 40,29,-534 
 
 5,62,841 
 
 105 rupees per garee of 120 maunds, about 16 annas 
 
 1839-40 
 
 39,88,580 
 
 6,06,158 
 
 per Indian maund ; the cost of production being about 
 12 rupees per garee. By Act VI, of 1844, the mono- 
 
 1840-41 
 
 37,80,520 
 
 7,58,715 
 
 poly price was raised to 1 rupee 8 annas per maund (180 
 
 1841-42 
 
 39,92,395 
 
 6,30,589 
 
 rupees per garee). But under orders of the Court of 
 Directors, published in the Fort St. George Gazette, of 
 
 1842-43 
 
 39,97,619 
 
 7,86,660 
 
 / lOtli August 1844, it was reduced to one rupee per 
 
 1843-44 
 
 43,21,604 
 
 5,85,960 
 
 maund, or 120 rupees per garee. The sea import duty 
 (under Act VI, of 1844) is three rupees per maund. 
 
 1844-45 
 
 45,25,604 
 
 7,44,235 
 
 except on salt imported from Arabia into Malabar and 
 
 1845-46 
 
 47,06,411 
 
 6,72,391 
 
 Canara, on which it has been reduced from three rupees 
 to 12 annas per maund. Salt by land from Goa pays 
 
 1846-47 
 
 45,56,353 
 
 5,72,165 
 
 also 12 annas per maund. 
 
 1847-48 
 
 48,57,218 
 
 6,62,363 
 
 
 1848-49 
 
 46,07,977 
 
 7,38,537 
 
 
 1849-60 
 
 46,45,926 
 
 8,12,614 
 
 
 1850-51 
 
 47,76,305 
 
 6,81,082 
 
 
 BOMBAY. 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 Excise. 
 
 Charges. 
 
 Rates of Duty, &c. 
 
 
 Co.'s lis. 
 
 Co.'s lis. 
 
 
 1834-36 - 
 
 2,32,197 1 
 2,57,517 f 
 
 
 
 1835-36 - 
 
 Not separable - 
 
 
 1836-37 - 
 
 2,35,242 
 
 26,710 
 
 
 1837-38 - 
 
 1,45,064 
 
 14,100 
 
 
 1838-39 - 
 
 12,57,719 
 
 1,00,041 
 
 
 1839-40 - 
 
 13,96,933 
 
 1,24,724 
 
 By Act XXVII, of 1837, from 15th De- 
 
 1840-41 - 
 
 15,90,854 
 
 1,32,636 
 
 cember 1837, an excise duty of eight annas 
 per maund was levied on salt. By Act XVI, 
 
 1841-42 - 
 
 15,01,731 
 
 1,59,130 
 
 of 1844, this was raised to one rupee per 
 
 1842-43 - 
 
 16,83,005 
 
 1,57,666 
 
 maund, and an import duty ot eight iinnas 
 I per mnund, levied under Act I, of 1838, was 
 
 1843-44 - 
 
 18,60,563 
 
 1,60,984 
 
 raised to one rupee. But under orders of 
 
 1844-45 - 
 
 20,03,929 
 
 1,56,427 
 
 the Court of Directors, publicly notilied on 
 the 10th September 1844, the excise and 
 
 1845-46 - 
 
 22,61,840 
 
 1,60,731 
 
 import duty were both reduced to twelve 
 
 1846-47 - 
 
 ) 9,30,2 19 
 
 1,52,654 
 
 annas per maund. 
 
 1847-48 - 
 
 25,27,011 
 
 1,82,605 
 
 
 1848-49 - 
 
 22,81,922 
 
 1,75,067 
 
 
 1849-50 - 
 
 23,24,871 
 
 1,67,280 
 
 
 1850-61 
 
 23,55,784 
 
 1,76,064 
 
 
 No. 7.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 3«9 
 
 No. 7, — STATEMENT of the Annual Jumma of Lands sold in eacli of tlio last Ten Years, 
 on Account of Arrears of Revenue ; the Amount of such Arrears ; the Total Sum produced 
 bj such Sales, and the Number of Cases in which such Sales have taken place, as far as the 
 same can be ascertained. 
 
 Appendix, No. i. 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 BENGAL: 
 1841-42 
 1842-43 
 1843-44 
 1844-45 
 1845-46 
 1846-47 
 1847-48 
 
 1848-49 ... 
 1849-50 
 J850-5I 
 
 NORTH-WESTERN 
 1841-42 
 1842-43 
 
 1843-44 ... 
 1844-45 
 
 1845-46 - - - 
 1846-47 
 1847-48 
 
 1848-49 ... 
 1849-50 
 1850-51 
 
 FORT ST. GEORGE 
 
 1841-42 
 
 1842-43 
 
 1843-44 
 
 1844-45 
 
 1845-46 
 
 1846-47 .- 
 
 1847-48 
 
 1848-49 
 
 1849-50 
 
 1850-51 
 
 1851-52 
 
 BOMBAY - 
 
 Annual Jumma 
 
 of 
 
 Lands sold 
 
 for 
 
 Arrears of Revenue. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 2,86,103 
 2,70,949 
 1,81,493 
 1,54,779 
 2,13,542 
 1,66,950 
 3,24,152 
 3,27,939 
 2,36,995 
 6,84,044 
 
 PROVINCES : 
 
 1,28,563 
 
 2,06,141 
 
 1,26,717 
 
 1,14,505 
 
 70,745 
 
 93,602 
 
 55,247 
 
 81,072 
 
 91,082 
 
 79,589 
 
 45,626 
 
 9,691 
 
 1,68,744 
 
 2,28,666 
 
 58,010 
 
 2,25,708 
 
 1,69,435 
 
 6,100 
 
 9,778 
 
 2,814 
 
 2,30,289 
 
 No Returns. 
 
 Amount 
 
 of 
 
 such Arrears. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 1,79,965 
 Not stated 
 
 80,892 
 1,80,810 
 1,51,646 
 
 92,399 
 3,72,665 
 
 98,988 
 1,92,961 
 1,42,211 
 97,190 
 45,662 
 86,264 
 23,363 
 36,845 
 42,586 
 39,765 
 
 92,409 
 
 7,409 
 
 5,78,007 
 
 5,17,459 
 
 3,82,100 
 
 11,42,261 
 
 8,16,329 
 
 53,001 
 
 6,643 
 
 2,554 
 
 1,50,524 
 
 Total 
 
 Sum produced 
 
 by 
 
 such Sales. 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 9,80,772 
 10,81,776 
 11,04,215 
 
 6,74,649 
 
 7,11,286 
 13,15,716 
 13,29,056 
 11,57,808 
 12,71,726 
 
 9,56,139 
 
 Not stated 
 
 29,983 
 46,929 
 Not stated 
 
 67,760 
 
 6,050 
 
 3,73,887 
 
 4,31,566 
 
 2,00,660 
 
 1,75,700 
 
 1,69,435 
 
 3,000 
 
 13,225 
 
 5,200 
 
 1,80,600 
 
 Number of Cases 
 
 in wliicli 
 
 such Sales have 
 
 taken place. 
 
 Portions- 
 
 764-54 
 
 769-44 
 
 958-41 
 
 659-38 
 
 749-18 
 1,479 
 1,238 
 1,165 
 1,515 
 1,272 
 
 104 
 226 
 221 
 121 
 
 97 
 115 
 
 62 
 
 81 
 
 74 
 
 69 
 
 7 
 4 
 7 
 
 25 
 8 
 
 12 
 6 
 4 
 6 
 1 
 6 
 
 T. L. Peacoclc, 
 
 Examiner of India Correspondence. 
 
 East India 
 14 February 
 
 House,"! 
 |r 1853. J 
 
 JAMES C. MELVILL- 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3 D 2
 
 APPENDIX TO HKPORT fROM tHF'
 
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 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 401 
 
 .r, ■. Appendix, No. 2. 
 
 A brief History of the Employment of the Sea Steamers belonging to the Bengal 
 Presidency, from 1841-42 to 1850-51. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Queen." 
 
 This vessel was employed with the expedition in China from the 1st May 1840 to the 
 22d January 1843; the greater part of 1843 she was unemployed in Calcutta, but in the 
 early part of 1844, siie made a few trips to Arracan, &c., and lastly, was employed at 
 Bombay. In November 1844 she was finally transferred from Bengal to the Bombay 
 Presidency. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer "Tenasserim." 
 
 This steamer was built in Moulmein in 1841, and her first employment was with the 
 expedition in China, on which service she was placed in February 1842, and continued in 
 it till the October followmg. The first half of 1843 she was engaged on a trip to Suez, 
 and the remaining months of the year was on the Calcutta station. 
 
 From the 1st May to 1st August 1844 she was unemployed ; on the latter date she 
 proceeded to Suez with the late Governor-general, Lord Ellenborough, and returned to 
 Calcutta on tiie 29th October with 17 lacs of treasure from Masulipatam. Between the 
 8th of January and 6th February 1845 this vessel, with the " Amherst" in tow, effected 
 the relief of native troops in Arracan. On the 12th March she was sent to assist in the 
 relief of troops between Moulmein and Madras, and having pei formed this service, brought 
 round 10 lacs of rupees from Masulipatam to Calcutta. In 1845-46, besides being employed, 
 along with the " Enterprise, " in keeping up the monthly communication between the 
 Presidency and Arracan and iNloulniein, the "Tenasserim" was engaged on detached 
 service. From the 6th May to the 7tli June she went on a trip to the Straits; she 
 underwent repairs till October, when she made two successive trips to Moulmein and 
 Arracan. From 23d November to 19th January she was away on a trip to the Southern 
 Indian Ocean to examine the reefs called the Cargados, Garajos, and the rocks and 
 islets in that vicinity, as well as in search of the shipwrecked crew of the ship "Letitia," 
 of this port, lost on a reef near those dangers two days after she left Mauritius. 
 From February to April the " Tenasserim " was principally employed on the Madras 
 coast. During the official year 1846-47 this vessel made five monthly ti'ips to theTenas- 
 serim and Arracan Provinces, in one of which she struck on the Alguada Rocks, and was, 
 in consequence, in dock for five weeks from the 1st June. In December she assisted in the 
 relief of troojjs in Arracan ; in January she took troops to Pooree, and the remainder of 
 the year was variously employed on the same description of service, chiefly on the Madras 
 coast. This steamer was employed in only two trips to Arracan and Moulmein in 1847-48. 
 Between August and January she was unemployed, getting new boilers fitted ; the rest of 
 the year she was placed at the disposal of the Madras Government, and was principally 
 employed for the conveyance of troops, European and native ; in the course of this service 
 she conveyed between different ports 51 officers and 3,059 men ; in June, July, and 
 December respectively of the year 1848-49, the "Tenass-erim " was employed on the 
 monthly communication with Arracan and Moulmein; the remaining period of her service 
 during the ofiicial year was peribrmed for the most part on account of the 3Iadras Govern- 
 ment in the transit of troups from place to place, having, at different times, on board 
 33 officers and 1,750 men, exclusive of camp followers, who were conveyed distances 
 varying from 2,000 to 800 miles. Up to May of 1849, this vessel was engaged in the service 
 of the Madias Government, and returned to Calcutta on the 16th of that month ; she made 
 the June, July, August, September, and November trips to the Arracan and Tenasserim 
 Provinces. From December to April of the official year 1849-50 she was again engaged 
 in service in Madras, and conveyed troops to different places to the extent of 2,741, 
 including women, children, and followers, and traversing a distance of 11,000 miles, 
 backwards and forwards. On her return in April she was again employed in taking troops 
 to Moulmein, and thence to Beuilipatam. During the official year 1850-51 she was 
 variously employed in transporting troops as well as taking her share in keeping up the 
 monthly communication with Arracan and Moulmein. 
 
 Honourable Companv's Steamer " Fire Queen." 
 
 This steamer was purchased in August 1847, and up to the end of the official year 
 1847-48 occasionally took the place ol' the "Tenasserim" and "Enterprise" on the 
 Arracan and Moulmein line, when either of those vpssels were under repair; the officers 
 and crew of the vessel laid up being transferred to the " Fire Queen " for the time beino-. 
 She was employed during the next official year, with the exception of one trip to Madras, 
 to assist in the movements of troops. In 184!>-.!J0 she was unemployed, with the exception 
 of tiiree trips to Arracan and Moulmein, and in the next official year she was altogether 
 unemployed, getting the " Atalanta's ' engines and new boilers fitted, &.c. 
 
 o.lo. 3 E 4 Honourable
 
 Appendix, No. 2. 
 
 402 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer" Entei!prisf.." 
 
 During ten months, namely, from the 1st May 1840 to the end of February 1 841, the " Enter- 
 prise" was employed with the Chinese Expedition. She then returned to Calcutta, and re- 
 mained on the Calcutta station until May 1844, from which date to the 5th August the same 
 vear, she was kept at Moulmein, and was employed in various service under the orders of the 
 Commissioner of theTenasserim Provinces. Beiny; relieved by tiie " Ganges," she returned to 
 Calcutta on the 11th August, and between that month and the (October folio winia,slie performed 
 several short trips to Sandhtads, Ciiittagong, &c. On the 29th (Jctober, she proceeded to 
 Madras with military stores, and to Bombay for treasure. About the middle of December, 
 she returned from the latter Presidency with 21 lacs of rupees and the Scinde prize property ; 
 and on the 2sth of the same month was dispatched in search of two missing vessels, the 
 " Runiieymede " and " True Britdu ; "' she returned on the 17tli January, and the rest of the 
 official year 1844-45 she was employed on seveial trips ; in takinij, stores to the light-house, 
 in False Point ; conveying the Acting Superintendent of Marine, the late Colonel Irving, 
 on a tour of inspection to Chittagong, Arracan, and Moulmein, and assisting in the relief of 
 troops between the Tenasserim I'rovinces and Madras. During the months of May to 
 .July 1845, this steamer was variously employed making one or two trips to Akyah and 
 Moulmein, a lew casual ones to the Sandheads ; and from August to the end of April 1846, 
 she was engaged in kee]3ing up the monthly communication with Arracan and Moulmein. 
 Besides some unimportant occasional service, she made seven trips to Arracan and Moul- 
 mein during the othcial year 1846-47. In 1847-48 this vessel made three tups to Arracan 
 and Moulmein, and part of one in September, when she grounded on the Oyster Reef in 
 Arracan, and was in consequence detained there, and subsequently remained under repairs 
 in Calcutta till December. In February slie proceeded to Madras and took troops for 
 China; but learning at Singapore that they were not required, the steamer returned with 
 the troops to Madras. She continued on the ftladras coast up to the month of April, and 
 was in various ways employed for the conveyance of troops and treasure. During June and 
 July, the " Enterprise " was laid up, but from that lime to the end of the othcial year 
 1848-49, she ran on the Arracan and Moulmein line, making in all eight trips, besides 
 assisting in the movements of troops between Madras and Chittagong in the month of 
 October. In May 1849, she made one trip fo Ariac.m and Moulmein, and three more in 
 February, March, and April 1850. During the othcial year 1850-51, the "Enterprise" 
 made seven trips to Arracan and Moulmein. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer "Ganges." 
 
 DrRiNG 1841-42 and 1842-43 she was on tlie Calcutta station, and in the following 
 year partly in Calcutta and partly in Arracan. In August 1844, she relieved the ''Enter- 
 prise " at Moulmein, where she was variously employed under the Commissioner, and in 
 April 1844 made a trip to the JSicobar Islands to ascertain ihe fate of the crew of a vessel 
 supposed to have been cut off by pirates. In September 1845 this vessel was sold out ol 
 the Government service. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Iruawaddy." 
 
 This vessel was built ol iron, and completed at the end of 1842 ; she was kept in Calcutta 
 until 1843-44, during which and the next official year, with the exception of two trips to 
 Arracan, she was principally enijjloyed in river service, occasionally touing a vessel, or 
 taking ))ilots to Sandheads, Ike. The following year 1 845-46, she was similarly employed, 
 and made one trip to Arracan. She continued in the river service till Rlareh 1847, 
 when she was sent to Moulmein. In February 1848 she was again .^ent to Aiiacan, and 
 continued enqjloyed in the province until the month of February 1850, when she struck 
 upon a rock lu-nv Akyale, and was ultimately broken up. 
 
 Honourable Comjjany's Steamer " Diana." 
 
 The " Diana" was all aU-ng employed in the Straits, chiefly in conveying the Hi)noHiable 
 Governor and other public ofncers to and Irom the dillcrent settii nients. On its being 
 determined that her place should he taken by the " llooghly," the '■ Diana" came here 
 in January 1840, and in .Match vvsis dispatched to Arracan, to take up her station in that 
 piovince, in aid of the military force, which was diminished about tiiat time. She came 
 buck 111 February 1847 to be thoiougiilv ri paired. She was finally sold on the 3d August 
 same year. 
 
 Honourable Conqjany's Steamer " IIooghly." 
 
 This was another ol the vessels that were attached to tiie expedition in China; she was 
 S) employed from June 1841 to December li!42. In February and .March 1843, was in the 
 '1 ?nasserim Provinces ; for the first iialf of 1844-45 was employed in the Straits, and from 
 
 thence
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEUIiriOUIES. 403 
 
 thenct; returned to Calcutta a^ain, and was laid up in ordinary till December 1845, when Appendix, No. 2. 
 
 she wa.i sent back to the Strafts for the jnirpose of relieving the " Diana," and iias continued 
 
 there for the suppression of piracy, coming to Calcutta occasionally for rei)air of 
 engines, &c. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer •' Phlegetiion." 
 
 Fkom the 1st June 1841 to June 1843, the " Phlegetiion" was among the vessels engaged 
 in the Chinese expedition. She returned to Calcutta, and remained here till April 1844, 
 when she was despatched to cruise against the pirates in the Straits ; but though this was 
 the o.-teiisible service on which she was sent, she was almost exclusively em])loyed in com- 
 pany with Her Majesty's ships again-t the pirates on the coast of Borneo. She was so 
 employed up to the'nioiith of November 184(5, and returned to Calcutta for rejiairs, which 
 beini' completed, she was sent to the Straits in Julv 1847. She returned to her station m 
 Chimi in October 1848, and relieved the "Pluto." In 1850-51 she was still in China. 
 under the orders of the nava! Commander-in-chief. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Proserpine." 
 
 The "Proserpine" was sent direct from England to China in 1840, where she joined 
 the expedition in May 1842, and continued witii it up to April 1845, when she returned 
 to Calcutta. In August, the same year, she was sent to Moulmein, to take the place of 
 the "Ganges," and continued attached to the Tenasserim Provinces up to the date of this 
 return. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Nemesis." 
 
 Was sent direct from England to China in March 1840; she remained in China to the 
 beginning of 1843, and in April of the latter year was sent round to Bombay, where she 
 was employed variously, but chiefly in conveying troops to and from Kurrachee, till towards 
 the end of 1844, when she was required to relieve the "Proserpine," in China. The 
 Bombay Government accordingly despatched her to Calcutta for a crew, but on her voyage 
 hither she encountered boisterous weather, and sustained considerable damage, rendering it 
 necessary to dock and repair her on arrival. She was sent away on the 30th April for 
 China, and continued in Her Majesty's service till November 1847, when she came to 
 Calcutta for repairs. She left in December 1848 to rejoin the Royal vessels, and remained 
 employed for the suppression of piracy in Borneo till March 1851, when she came round 
 here for repairs. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Pluto." 
 
 The " Pluto" was sent from England direct to China; remained with the Chinese expe- 
 dition from October 1841 to January 1843, when she came to Calcutta ; and in April 1843 
 proceeded to l5ombay, and was there enijiloyed along with the " Nemesis,'" chiefly in 
 effecting the passage of troops to and from Kurrachee. In May 1845 she was ordered to 
 China to relieve the " iNledusa," and remained in Her Majesty's service there till March 
 1849, on the 3d of which month she came to Calcutta to be repaired, and in March 1851 
 left to proceed to the Straits, and resume her place with the vessels of Her Majesty's 
 service, under the orders of the naval Commander-in-chief, China Seas. 
 
 Honourable Company's Steamer " Madagascar." 
 
 Till'. "Madagascar" was purchased for service with the expedition in China, which she 
 joined in April 1840. She reiurned here with the despatches a few montiis atterwards, and 
 was again despatched in August 1841 to resume her place with the expedition; but while 
 on her voyage up the China Seas on the liUh September of the same year, she was totally 
 destroyed by fire during a typhoon. 
 
 W. Howe, 
 Secretary to the Superintendent of Marine. 
 Fort William, Marine Superintendent's Office, 
 4 September 1852. 
 
 0,10. 3 F
 
 Appendix, No. 2. 
 
 404 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 (C.) 
 
 REGULATIONS for the Gukiance of Commanders, Officers, and Engineers, &c. 
 attached to the Government Steam Vessels. 
 
 1st. Every commander, officer, engineer, or other person sliall make himself acquainted 
 with and shall duly observe the following regulations, and all others that may from time to 
 time be given or issued by competent authority, and shall in all other respects conform to 
 the usage of the service, and to the rules issued by the commander of the particular ship on 
 board which he may serve. 
 
 2d. Every commander, officer, or engineer, or other person, from the time of his joining 
 the vessel to which he is appointed to that of his being discharged, is to be constant in his 
 attendance on board ; and no officer is to go out of the vessel without being sent by or 
 having permission from the commanding officer on board ; and every officer or other person, 
 when he returns on board after being absent, whether on duty or on leave, is to report his 
 return to the commanding officer. 
 
 3d. The order of rank or subordination is as follows: 
 
 Commander. 
 
 First, or chief, and second officer. 
 
 Surgeon. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Third officer or gunner. 
 
 Assistant engineer. 
 
 4th. The commander is to do his utmost to maintain the vessel he commands in efficiency 
 and good discipline, and he is to be particularly attentive to the cleanliness of the men, and 
 to the tidiness of their apparel, and they are never to be permitted to sleep in wet clothes 
 or on a wet deck ; he is to enforce strict obedience from all persons embarked to the rules 
 and regulations of the service, and to such orders as he may from time to time issue, by his 
 own, or be desired by superior authority to promulgate. 
 
 5th. He is himself to observe and to require from those under his authority a respectful 
 and courteous demeanour. 
 
 6th. The chief officer, who is the executive officer of the ship, is to give his most effective 
 support to his commander, whose confidence he does or ought to possess ; he is to recollect 
 that, as the first subordinate officer in the ship, it behoves him, by an example of respect 
 and obedience to his commandei', to induce a like conduct from the officers subordinate to 
 himself. 
 
 7th. It is his duty to make himself thoroughly acquainted with every circumstance 
 relating to his ship and the machinery, and to use every endeavour to maintain good disci- 
 pline, and to (brward by all means in his power the duty of his ship in every department. 
 
 8ih. The duties of the second officer are akin to those of the chief officer, whose duties 
 may devolve upon him from sickness or absence. 
 
 9th. If an officer, engineer, or other shall observe any misconduct in his superior, or shall 
 sufler any personal oppression, or injustice, or other ill-treatment, he is not on that account 
 to fail in any degree in the respect and obedience due to such superior officer ; but he is to 
 represent such misconduct or ill-treatment in the first instance to the captain or commanding 
 officer of the vessel to which he belongs, or subsequently to the Controller of Steam Vessels 
 for reference to the Marine Board, or, if necessary, to Government; or should the steam 
 vessel be absent from Calcutta, and placed under the orders of any Government Commis- 
 sioner, commander of a squadron, or other authority, the appeal shall then be from the 
 conimander ot the ship to such superior authority. 
 
 ]«th. Every officer, engineer, or other person is strictly enjoined to refrain from making 
 any remarks or observations on the conduct or orders of any of his superior officers, which 
 may tend to bring them into ridicule or contempt. 
 
 11th. During the absence from Calcutta of any of the Honourable Company's steam 
 vessels every officer is to sleep on board the vessel to which he belongs, and no officer is oa 
 any account, except when duty may riK|uire it, to be absent from the vessel to which he 
 belongs for a longer period than I'i hours ; and no vessel is at any time or on any account 
 whatever to be left without cither her captain or the chief or second mate, and either the 
 first or second engineer. 
 
 12th. It is the duty of the commander and officers to attend to the well-being of the 
 ship in which they serve in every dejiartment, and officers are not to imagine that because 
 the engines are under the peculiiir charge of an engineer, that they are therefore themselves 
 < xonerated from all responsibilities connected with them. They are, when upon watch, but 
 
 particularly
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 405 
 
 particularly at iiiglit, to cast their eye freqiiontly into the engine-room to see if the stokers /^ppgndix, N':'. 2. 
 or drivers on vvati'h are .ittending to their duty ; and the mobt serious accidents being likely ' 
 
 to arise from water gettinu' low in the boiler, they are frccjucntly to inquire if tiie water- 
 cocks have been tried, anil should ilie water be below the lower cocks, he is immediately to 
 cause the engineer to be called, and the fires to be drawn. 
 
 13th. Nothing contained in the foregoing regulation is intended to give authority to an 
 oHicer to order any alteration, or adjustment, or repair of the engines ; but if the oIKcer of 
 the watch or connnanding officer is of opinion that the engines are not working well, he is 
 to send for the engineer or assistant engineer in charge, and to consult with him, and make 
 such suggestions anil observations as may occur ; and he is to require from the engineer or 
 assistant engineer, as the case may be, such information and explanation on tlie subject as 
 may appear necessary, or as the circumstances of the case may demand. 
 
 14th. It will be the duty of the officer to give every assistance to the engineers that may 
 reasonably be required for the purpose of doing the repairs of his engines, and maintaining 
 them in good and efficient order. 
 
 loth. No person, engineer or stoker, is to be permitted leave to absent himself from the 
 vessel, or from his duty, without his first having obtained permission of the engineer or 
 assistant engineer in charge, as tlie case may be. 
 
 16th. The engineer or assistant engineer, or person in charge of the engines, is to recollect 
 that he is subordinate to the commander and officers of the vessel to which he is attached, 
 and is to obey such commands as he may from time to time receive from such superior 
 officers; and nothing contained in tlie 13th paragraph of these Regulations will justify the 
 engineer, 8cc. in refusing to obey an order from a superior officer. 
 
 17th. If any officer, engineer, or other person shall receive from his superior an order 
 which he may deem at variance with these Regulations, or calculated to cause serious 
 mischief or damage to the ship or the machinery, he is to represent the same, and if after 
 such representation shall still be directed to obey the order given, he is to do so ; but he 
 may, it he thinks it necessary, report the circumstance to superior authority. 
 
 18th. The engineer is to make himself intimately acquainted with the state and condition 
 of every part of his engines, which he is to be careful to keep in good and efficient order; 
 to assist him in which duty, the assistant engineers and native stokers will be placed under 
 his direction ; and in case of his requiring further assistance, he is to make the same 
 known to the commanding officer, or the officer of the watch, as the case may be, who 
 will on such representation render such further assistance as he may deem necessary. 
 
 19th. Although the assistant engineers and stokers employed in the Honourable Com- 
 pany's steam vessels will be principally under the directions of the engineer, the latter is to 
 recollect they are not exclusively so, but that they are also subject to the orders of the 
 commanding officer on board the ship, and to the regulations established for the good dis- 
 cipline thereof; and if it should at any time happen that the assistant engineers or stokers 
 are called away or appointed to other duty than that connected with the engines, and if by 
 such means the necessary work is interrupted, the engineer shall not ])resume to retain those 
 persons contrary to the orders issued by or proceeding from the commanding officer, but he 
 shall respectfully and quietly represent the same to the commanding officer, who, on such 
 representation being made, will exercise his judgment on the occasion ; and if after such 
 representation to the commanding officer the work is impeded by the absence of the assistant 
 engineers and stokers, no blame shall attach to the engineer, he having fulfilled his duty. 
 
 20th. The engineer is 011 the occurrence of any accident to make the same known to the 
 commanding officer, or officer of the watch, as the case may be ; and he is to use his best 
 endeavours to explain the nature of the accident, its probable consequences, and the means 
 he proposes to adopt for repairing the same. 
 
 •21st. The engineer is not to consider as an improper interference with his duty, the coni- 
 mander or commanding officer making any inquiries or observations relative to the state of 
 the machinery or the working of the engines ; and if an officer misapprehends, it will be the 
 duty of the engineer to explain and to set him right; and, far from withholding information, 
 it is no less the duty than the manifest interest of the engineer to give the fullest and best 
 information or explanation, as the case may be, for so the officers being more intimately 
 acquainted with the nature of the machinery, shall be better enabled to estimate the nature 
 and extent of the assistance which the engineer may on various occasions require. 
 
 •2-2d. The commander of a Government steam vessel is not to quit the vessel he commands 
 without acquainting the comniandino- officer therewith, and should he not be on deck to 
 receive his commander on his return, which it is his duty to do, the commander is to lequire 
 his attendance that the chief or commanding officer may so be aware of his return. No 
 officer or other person is to quit the vessel without the sanction ol the commanding officer 
 on board, and each person on his return to the vessel is required to report his relurn to the 
 commanding officer. 
 
 23d. Every commander and officer in or belonging to any of the Honourable Coui])any's 
 
 steam vessels is enjoined (o make himself acquainted with the name otieach man of the 
 
 o.io. 3 F 2 ciew ;
 
 4o6 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 J- v; , crew; and upon all occasions when an individual of the crew is called upon, to designate or 
 Appendijc^.-o. -2. ^^jj.Jj,j, jjjjjj jjy j^jg proper name, which is a mark of respect due from tliose of the highest 
 
 to those of the lowest grade. 
 
 24th. Commanders may, if it be necessary for the punishment and control of offences, 
 suspend officers from their duty, and place them under arrest, until the decision of superior 
 authority be known ; but during such suspension or arrest, such officer so suspended is to 
 be permitted to take exercise on the deck at regulated intervals for the preservation of 
 health, and if before appeal or representation can be made to superior authority, and orders 
 be received thereupon, the services of such officer should be required, the commander may 
 relieve such officer from arrest, and order him to return to and perform his duty, without 
 any prejudice to the complaint that may be recorded against him ; and any officer having 
 been so placed under arrest, and afterwards ordered to resume his duty, will at his peril 
 refuse to obey the command. 
 
 •25th. Whenever an officer, serving on board or belonging to any Government steam 
 vessel shall have occasion to address any letter or petition or other document to superior 
 authority, on any matter connected with the service, he shall submit such letter or petition 
 to the commander of the ship or vessel to which he may belong, and such commander 
 under no circumstances shall refuse to forward such letter, but take the earliest opportunity 
 of sending it to its address. 
 
 (signed) J. H. Johnston, 
 
 Steam Department, Ki April 1840. Conf ol Government Steam Vessels. 
 
 (True Copy.) 
 
 Fort William, Marine Superintendent's Office, H. Howe, 
 
 4 September 1852. Secretary. 
 
 (D.) 
 
 REGULATIONS for Manning, Promotion, and Services of the Steamers on the 
 
 Bengal Establishment. 
 
 The officers of the sea steamers belonging to the Presidency of Bengal are taken from 
 the merchant service. Previous to appointment, they undergo an examination touching 
 their qualifications for the appointment for which they are candidates. The rules of pro- 
 motion for officers is seniority, when fitness is found. All appointments to command of 
 sea-going steamers are submitted to Government. The appointments and distribution of 
 the officers of inferior grades are made according as the head of the department tliinks best 
 for I lie interest of the service. Officers are considered as acting for the first year, and liable 
 to be removed without formal trial and report to Government. No officer, after having 
 served one year, is dismissed without trial, or without sanction of Government. 
 
 The Europeans shipped for vessels intended for war purposes, such as the " Nemesis," 
 " I'hiegethon," and " Pluto," which f(ir many years past have been lent to Iler Majesty's 
 Government, sign articles as follows : — 
 
 " It is agreed by and on the part of the said persons, and they severally hereby engage 
 to serve on board the Honourable East India Company's Steamer ' ' for 
 
 general service, in the several capacities against their respective names, and for such time 
 as their services may be required, not exceeding three (3) years from the date of this 
 agreen)ent. 
 
 '* And the said crew further engage to submit to the laws and discipline as established 
 lor the government of the Indian Navy, and to conduct tliemselves in an orderly, faithful, 
 lionest, careful, and sober n)armer, and to bo at all times diligent in their respective duties 
 and stations, and to be obedient to the lawful commands of the commander, or his succes- 
 sor, in the event of his removal, from any cause whatever, and the officers of the ship, in 
 everything relating to the ship, and the materials, stores, and provisions, or other articles 
 thereof, whether on board such ship, in boats, or on shore. 
 
 " That one hour's absence from the ship, within twenty-four hours' previous to her in- 
 ter.(ied departure from any port, or twenty-four hours' absence, without leave, at any one 
 time, to forfeit one month's pay, or for further absence, at any time during their term of 
 service, except by permission granted by the commander or commanding officer, to forfeit 
 jn proportion, unless urgent and sufficient cause can be shown for such absence. 
 
 " That any officer or seaman who shall have been sick or disabled at the time of his 
 entry, and wlu) shall have neglected to make the same known to the commander, such person 
 shall not Ijc entitled to any wages or compensation for whatever time he may be unfit for 
 or absent from duty in consequence of such sickness or disease. 
 
 " That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 407 
 
 "That if any officer or seaman shall enter himself as qualified for duty to which he shall Appendix. No. 2. 
 
 not prove competent, he will be subject to a reduction of the rates of waives hereby agreed 1 
 
 for, ill proportion to his cajjacity, as may be adjusted by the conmiandor and one or more 
 of his officers. 
 
 " That any seaman who shall actually desert the ship, shall forfeit his clothes and effects 
 which he may have on board, and all waives and emoluments he might otherwise be entitled 
 to receive. 
 
 " In consideration of which services, to be duly, honestly, carefully, and faithfully per- 
 formed, the commander doth hereby promise and agree to pay to the said crew, by way of 
 compensation, wages to the amount against the names respectively expressed. 
 
 " In witness whereof the said parties have hereto subscribed their respective names on the 
 days mentioned against their respective signatwres." 
 
 If any of the European seamen become ill and incapacitated for service during the period 
 for which they have entered, they are provided with a passage to England. If they get 
 disabled by wound in action, Government, with the sanction of the Honourable Court of 
 Directors, grant them pensions. The men are provisioned by a scale as far as possible 
 agreeing with that in use in Her Majesty's Navy. 
 
 The following is a List of Pay of Officers and Men ;- 
 
 Commanders of 1st class ships over 500 tons 
 Commanders 2d class, under 500 tons and over 300 
 Third class, under 300 tons - - - - - 
 First officer ._.--_- 
 
 Second ditto .__---- 
 Third ditto -------- 
 
 Surgeon 
 
 Gunner 
 Boatswain - 
 Carpenter - 
 Purser's steward - 
 Gunner's mate 
 Boatswain's mate 
 Quartermaster 
 Able-bodied seamen 
 Ordinary seamen - 
 Boy - 
 
 Rupees. 
 500 
 
 400 
 
 300 
 
 175 
 
 130 
 
 100 
 
 250 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 GO 
 
 35 
 
 30 
 
 30 
 
 ■26 
 
 24 
 
 18 
 
 15 
 
 H. Howe, 
 Secretary to the Superintendent of Marine. 
 
 Fort William, Marine Superintendent's Office, 
 4 September 1852. 
 
 0.10, 
 
 S F3
 
 4o8 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 (E.) 
 
 STATEMENT showing the Names and Stations of Oificers whose Conduct formed the Subject of 
 Inquiry and Report to Government, from 1841-42 to 1850-51. 
 
 NAMES. 
 
 Mr. R. S. Ross 
 Mr. Crawley 
 Mr. R. Roe 
 
 Mi. W. M'Mahon 
 
 Mr. Jas. Paterson 
 
 Mr. S. Swinton 
 
 Mr. A. Cops 
 
 Mr. Dclafons 
 
 Mr. A, Cops 
 
 Mr. S, Coverley 
 
 STATIONS. 
 
 Commander, 
 
 Chief Officer, 
 
 Second Officer, 
 
 of the Honourable 
 Company's steamer 
 « Hooo-hlv." 
 
 OFFENCE CHARGED. 
 
 - - Chief Officer of 
 the Honourable Com- 
 pany's steamer " Irra- 
 waddy." 
 
 - - Commander of the 
 Honourable Company's 
 steamer "Tenasserim." 
 
 - - Second Officer of 
 the Honourable Com- 
 pany's steamer " Te- 
 
 - - Commander of the 
 Honourable Compan3''s 
 steamer " Enterprize." 
 
 - - Second Officer of 
 the Honourable Com- 
 pany's steamer " En- 
 terprize." 
 
 - - Commander of the 
 Honourable Company's 
 steamer " Enterprize." 
 
 - - Running the steamer " Hooghly" 
 into the barque " Borneo," in the 
 Gasper Channel, in broad daylight, 
 on the l.jtli December 1843; the 
 barque being- at the time on a wind 
 working up Channel, and the steamer 
 before the wind and under steam. 
 
 DECISION. 
 
 - - Disrespect towards his com- 
 mander, and leaving the vessel on 
 4th March 1844, after having been 
 refused permission to do so. 
 
 - - Running the "Tenasserim" on 
 the Alguada Rocks on the morning 
 of the 17th September 1846. 
 
 - - Charged with, 1st. Ill-treating 
 a number of the crew at different 
 times; 2d. Being- in a state of ex- 
 citement from drink on the 8th No- 
 vember 1840; 3d. Firing one of the 
 ship's guns at night in that state of 
 excitement ; 4th. Disobeying- the 
 chief officer's order on the 18th idem ; 
 and, lastly, Smoking a cigar on the 
 quarter-deck, conti-ary to the rules of 
 the ship. 
 
 - - Running the vessel on the Oyster 
 Reef, near Arracan, on the night of 
 14th September 1847, through neg- 
 lect of the lead. 
 
 - - Being asleep, locked up within 
 the quarter gallery, at 2.30 a. m. of 
 14th November 1848, in his watch, 
 while the vessel was under-weigh. 
 
 - - Hunning the steamer into danger 
 on the coast of Arracan, on the 
 28th September 1848, througli want 
 of due care and ordinary caution. 
 
 ' - - Commander of the - - Grounding, and ultimate loss of 
 HonourableCompany's the steamer in the Arracan River, in 
 steamer " Irrawaddy." I February 1850. 
 
 - - The decision of Government upon 
 all the circumstances of the case was, 
 that Mr. Roe, as the officer of the 
 watch, and with reference to his pre- 
 vious conduct, should be dismissed 
 the service ; that Mr. Crawley, the 
 chief officer, should be reprimanded ; 
 and Mr. Ross, the commander, repre- 
 hended for not more strictly enforcing 
 discipline on his vessel. 
 
 - - Reduced, by order of Govern- 
 ment, from Rs. 250 to Rs. 150 per 
 month. 
 
 - - Acquitted by Government, but 
 ordered to bo warned for neglect of 
 the lead. 
 
 - - Convicted of all the charges, and 
 dismissed from the service by order 
 of Government. 
 
 - - Acquitted by order of Govern- 
 ment, except as regards negligence in 
 not fiaving- the lead going. 
 
 - - Dismissed from the service, by 
 order of Government. 
 
 - - Suspended from pay and employ- 
 ment for three months, by order of 
 Government. 
 
 Acquitted, bj- order of Government. 
 
 Fort William, Marine Superintendent's Office,! 
 4 September 1852. J 
 
 H. Howe, 
 Secretary to the Superintendent of Marine. 
 
 (True Copies.) 
 
 Marine Department, East India House,) 
 U November 1802. J 
 
 J. C. Mason. 
 
 East India House, 1 
 2! February 1853,/ 
 
 JAMES C. MELVILL.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 409 
 
 Appendix, No. 3. 
 
 CRIMINAL JUSTICE, 1833. 
 
 Appendii, No. 3 
 
 BENGAL (Lower PROviNCts). 
 
 
 CONVICTED. 
 
 ACQUITTED. 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 1^ 
 
 Under 
 
 
 H- 
 
 « <o on 
 
 lis 
 
 
 
 r3 
 
 ."J . 
 
 
 ^4 
 
 
 
 Trial. 
 
 >n3 
 
 go 
 
 
 
 
 
 ^ =3 
 t-l « 
 
 'be -a .2 
 03 a bo 
 
 ^■3 a 
 
 i-l 
 
 
 
 *3 
 
 i 
 
 13 
 
 M 
 
 
 
 m<i 
 
 P3cQ 
 
 «.? 
 
 fH 
 
 p^< 
 
 nt« 
 
 CP.? S 
 
 H 
 
 « 
 
 a 
 
 tc^ 
 
 69^0 
 
 620 
 
 1,871 
 
 27,420 
 
 29,817 
 
 208 
 
 9G2 
 
 32,935 
 
 34,105 
 
 5,667 
 
 198 
 
 « 
 
 NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES. 
 
 
 CONVICTED. 
 
 TOTAL. 
 
 ACQUITTED. 
 
 TOTAL. 
 
 
 Under Trial. 
 
 By 
 
 Magistrates. 
 
 By 
 
 Commissioner 
 
 or 
 
 Sessions Judge. 
 
 By 
 
 Magistrates. 
 
 By 
 Commissioner 
 
 or 
 Sessions Judge. 
 
 Remaining 
 
 for 
 Trial. 
 
 41,208 
 
 15,735 
 
 1,985 
 
 17,720 
 
 20,077 
 
 1,321 
 
 21,398 
 
 2,515 
 
 FORT ST. GEORGE. 
 
 
 Under Trial. 
 
 Convicted. 
 
 Acquitted. 
 
 Under 
 
 Examination 
 
 at 
 
 End of Period. 
 
 Referred 
 to other Courts 
 
 
 otherwise 
 disposed of. 
 
 Foujdarry Adawlut - . - 
 Courts of Circuit ... 
 Criminal Courts . . - 
 Magistracy .... 
 
 731 
 
 6,284 
 
 31,175 
 
 9,864 
 
 309 
 1,803 
 0,425 
 4,046 
 
 195 
 
 2,080 
 
 14,417 
 
 6,741 
 
 189 
 
 490 
 
 2,957 
 
 77 
 
 38 
 1,901 
 7,376 
 
 Total - - - 
 District Police - . . - 
 "Village Police . . . - 
 
 48,054 
 
 95,400 
 
 5,849 
 
 12,583 
 
 30,478 
 
 3,350 
 
 22,433 
 
 01,296 
 2,545 
 
 3,713 
 3,533 
 
 9,316 
 93 
 
 Grahd Total - - - 
 
 149,303 
 
 46,411 86,274 
 
 7,240 
 
 9,408 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3 I- 4 
 
 (continued)
 
 410 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 >peudix, No. 3. 
 
 BOMBAY. 
 
 
 CONVICTED. 
 
 TOTAL. 
 
 ACQUITTED. 
 
 TOTAL 
 
 Under 
 
 Uoder 
 Trial. 
 
 By 
 
 Sessions 
 Judges and 
 Assistants. 
 
 By 
 
 Magistrates 
 
 and 
 Assistants. 
 
 By 
 
 Native 
 Autliorities. 
 
 By 
 
 Sessions 
 Judges and 
 Assistants. 
 
 By 
 
 Magistrates! , By 
 
 and ' NatiTe 
 Assistants. /^""»»"t'«s- 
 
 HxaminS' 
 
 tioii at 
 
 End 
 
 of Period. 
 
 33,945 
 
 1,391 
 
 5,241 
 
 10,261 
 
 16,893 
 
 692 
 
 5,733 
 
 9,450 
 
 15,875 
 
 1,177 
 
 N.B. — No return for Foujdarry .\dawlut. 
 
 CRIMINAL JUSTICE, 1849. 
 
 BENGAL. 
 
 
 Number of 
 
 Persons 
 
 under Trial. 
 
 Convicted. Acquitted. 
 
 Otlierwise 
 Disposed of, or 
 
 
 1 1 Pending. 
 
 By Nizamut Adawlut ... 
 
 By Sessions Judges - . - - 
 
 By Magistrates, Joint, and Assistant -"1 
 Ditto and Native Judges - -J 
 
 621 
 
 4,177 
 
 102,043 
 
 1 
 420 149 
 
 1,839 1,301 
 59,363 i 35,628 
 
 52 
 
 977 
 
 7,052 
 
 Total - - - 
 
 106,841 
 
 61,622 37,138 
 
 8,081 
 
 NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES. 
 
 
 :} 
 
 Number of 
 
 Persons 
 under Trial. 
 
 Convicted. 
 
 -Acquitted. 
 
 Otlierwise 
 Disposed of, or 
 
 
 Pending. 
 
 By Nizamut Adawlut 
 
 By Sessions Judges . . - 
 
 By Magistrates, Joint, and Assistant 
 Ditto and Native Judges - 
 
 066 
 5,254 
 
 85,403 
 91,383 
 
 552 
 2,751 
 
 45,863 
 
 65 
 1,278 
 
 32,842 
 
 40 
 1,225 
 
 0,758 
 
 TOIAI, - - 
 
 49,166 
 
 34,185 
 
 8,032 
 
 FORT ST. GEORGE. 
 
 
 Number of 
 
 Persons 
 under Trial. 
 
 Conricted. 
 
 Acquitted. 
 
 Under 
 Exaiiiinatiou and 
 
 
 Disposed of. 
 
 Foujdarry Adawlut - - . . 
 
 Sessions .Judges - - . - 
 
 Subordinate Judges and Principal 
 Siidder Amcens - . . - 
 
 Sudder ,\mcen8 
 
 District and Village Police and Magis- 
 trates ...... 
 
 207 
 2,310 
 
 5,900 
 1,431 
 
 104,848 
 
 141 
 822 
 
 1,422 
 764 
 
 50,612 
 
 57 
 1,083 
 
 2,051 
 637 
 
 113,074 
 
 9 
 505 
 
 2,487 
 30 
 
 1,102 
 
 Total ... 
 
 174,750 
 
 53,761 116,902 
 
 4,193
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOillES. 
 
 4" 
 
 BOMBAY. 
 
 Appcndi.T, No. fj. 
 
 — 
 
 Number of 
 
 Persons 
 under Trial. 
 
 Convicted. 
 
 Acquitted. 
 
 Deaths and 
 Escapes. 
 
 Under 
 
 Examination at 
 
 End 
 
 of Period. 
 
 By Foujdarry Adawiut 
 
 By Sessions Judges ... 
 
 By Magistrates and Assistant 
 Magistrates, and District and 
 Village Police - - . - 
 
 209 
 2,338 
 
 70,342 
 
 189 
 1,066 
 
 29,920 
 
 20 
 
 87S 
 
 39,706 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 40 
 
 182 
 885 
 
 Total - - - 
 
 72,889 
 
 31,175 
 
 40,604 
 
 43 
 
 1,067 
 
 CIVIL JUSTICE, 1833-1849. 
 
 
 
 BENGAL (Low 
 
 EU Provinces.) 
 
 
 
 
 
 Pending on 1st January, 
 
 and Instituted during 
 
 the Year 
 
 Disposed of. 
 
 Pending at Bud 
 of Year 
 
 Total Valun of Suits and 
 
 Appeals Depending at 
 
 End of Year 
 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. j 1849. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 t 
 Rs. ' Rs. 
 
 Sudder Adawiut 
 
 976 
 
 668 
 
 312 
 
 299 
 
 598 
 
 369 
 
 52,70,161 l,07,44,lo0 
 
 Provincial Courts 
 
 1,830 
 
 - 
 
 049 
 
 - 
 
 350 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 Zillah and City Judges 
 
 50,148 
 
 18,119 
 
 7,890 
 
 3,408 
 
 12,959 
 
 4,503 
 
 
 35,66,873 
 
 Registers - - - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 73 
 
 - 
 
 10 
 
 , 
 
 2,71,05,422 
 
 
 Principal Sudder Ameens 
 
 - 
 
 18,578 
 
 10,010 
 
 10,216 
 
 6,366 
 
 7,747 
 
 - 
 
 7,12,92,901 
 
 Sudder Ameens - 
 
 - 
 
 2,827 
 
 8,746 
 
 1,363 
 
 2,562 
 
 1,228 
 
 - 
 
 6,21,260 
 
 Moonsiffs - - - 
 
 150,695 
 
 1,21,203 
 
 95,616 
 
 86,676 
 
 46,203 
 
 31,557 . 
 
 - 
 
 , 18,30,793 
 
 Total - - 
 
 203,649 
 
 1,61,395 
 
 123,096 
 
 101,962 
 
 69,048 
 
 45,404 
 
 3,23,84,583 
 
 8,81,05,963 
 
 NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES. 
 
 
 Pending on 1st January, 
 
 and Instituted during 
 
 the Year 
 
 Disposed of. 
 
 Pending at End 
 of Year 
 
 Value of Suits 
 
 Pending 
 31 December. 
 
 Value of 
 
 Suits 
 Decided. 
 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 1849. 
 
 Sudder Adawhit 
 
 Provincial Courts 
 
 Judges . - - 
 
 Zillah and City Judges 
 
 Commissioner, Superin- 
 tendent Hill States, 
 two Senior Assistants, 
 one Junior Assistant 
 
 Principal Sudder Ameens 
 
 Sudder Ameens - 
 
 Moonsiffs - - - 
 
 1,750 
 1,863 
 
 22,919 
 
 7,494 
 
 9,088 
 
 46,727 
 
 356 
 9,924 
 
 4,470 
 
 8,185 
 
 13,725 
 
 71,035 
 
 213 
 224 
 
 3,619 
 
 4,028 
 
 6,132 
 
 30,986 
 
 207 
 3,822 
 
 2,219 
 
 6,158 
 10,124 
 55,888 
 
 1,543 
 10 
 
 6,896 
 
 2,634 
 
 1,225 
 
 13,836 
 
 149 
 1,979 
 
 1,206 
 
 1,735 
 
 3,389 
 
 13,083 
 
 Rs. 
 
 1,02,20,241 
 
 1,87,60,829 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 Rs. 
 
 7,77,258 
 
 no lotiini. 
 
 Total - - 
 
 89,847 
 
 1,07,695 45,202 
 
 78,418 
 
 26,143 
 
 21,541 
 
 2,89,87,070 
 
 — 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3G 
 
 [:oii('.nw(/)
 
 412 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 MADRAS. 
 
 
 Pending on let Jamiary, 
 
 and Instituted during 
 
 the Year 
 
 Disposed of. 
 
 Pending 
 of 1 
 
 ' at End 
 'ear 
 
 Value 
 
 of 
 
 Suits Decided. 
 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 Sudder Adawlut 
 
 19 
 
 144 
 
 10 
 
 93 
 
 9 
 
 51 -j 
 
 Rs. 
 
 Rs. 
 1,93,712 
 
 Provincial Courts 
 
 412 
 
 - 
 
 70 
 
 - 
 
 317 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 .rudges . - - 
 
 - 
 
 4,438 
 
 - 
 
 1,776 
 
 - 
 
 2,028 
 
 
 8,22,169 
 
 Zillah Courts 
 
 17,409 
 
 - 
 
 7,683 
 
 - 
 
 4,506 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Agents ... 
 
 - 
 
 574 
 
 - 
 
 83 
 
 - 
 
 376 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Subordinate Judges 
 
 - 
 
 3,946 
 
 - 
 
 1,920 
 
 
 1,661 
 
 34,04,443 
 
 3,95,681 
 
 Principal Sudder Ameens 
 
 - 
 
 -5,239 
 
 - 
 
 2,629 
 
 - 
 
 2,426 
 
 - 
 
 4,11,322 
 
 Assistants to Agents - 
 
 
 455 
 
 - 
 
 196 
 
 - 
 
 201 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 Sudder .Ameens and one 
 Town Cauzee - 
 
 _ 
 
 18,735 
 
 . 
 
 10,679 
 
 - 
 
 7,631 
 
 . 
 
 8,98,548 
 
 Moonsiffs - - - 
 
 - 
 
 85,992 
 
 - 
 
 54,310 
 
 - 
 
 30,442 
 
 - 
 
 17,39,020 
 
 District Moonsiffs 
 
 86,394 
 
 - 
 
 59,276 
 
 - 
 
 26,637 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Village ditto 
 
 9,306 
 
 - 
 
 4,769 
 
 
 4,190 
 
 — ^ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Total - - 
 
 113,600 
 
 119,523 
 
 71,808 
 
 71,686 
 
 35,659 
 
 44,816 
 
 
 44,60,452 
 
 BOMBAY. 
 
 
 Pending on Ist January, 
 and Institutpd during 
 
 the Year 
 
 Dispos 
 
 edof. 
 1849. 
 
 Pending at End 
 of Year 
 
 Value 
 
 of 
 
 Suits Decided. 
 
 / 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 r 
 
 1833. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1833. 
 
 1849. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Rs. 
 
 Rs. a. p. 
 
 Sudder Adawlut 
 
 1 ' 
 
 - 
 
 177 
 
 110 - 
 
 
 
 
 
 Judges ... 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2,395 
 
 
 
 
 
 Judges and Assistants 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2,207 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 Subordinate Judges - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2,622 
 
 
 
 
 
 Native Judges and Com- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 missioners 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 42,228 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 Agents to Assistants - 
 
 1 no return of details 
 
 - 
 
 759 
 
 1 no return of details 
 
 21,74,360 
 
 42,93,446 14 5 
 
 Collectors and Sub-col- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 lectors - - . 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1,051 
 
 
 
 
 
 Principal Sudder Ameens 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 6,549 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sudder Ameens - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 13,755 
 
 
 
 
 
 Moonsiffs ... 
 
 • 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 60,956 
 
 
 
 
 
 PuDctiaycts 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 31 
 
 55 
 
 ) 
 
 
 
 
 Total - - 
 
 51,130 
 
 1,04,737 
 
 44,643 
 
 88,862 
 
 5,303 
 
 15,805 
 
 — 
 
 —
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
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 414 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 5. 
 
 ppendix, No. 5. STATEM ENT of the Names of the Districts in India coming under the denomination of 
 
 "Non-Regulation." 
 
 Cis Sutlej - 
 
 North-East Frontier (Assam) 
 
 Under the Authority of the Government of Bengal. 
 
 Umballah. 
 
 Loodiana, inchidliig Wudin. 
 
 Kythul and Ladwa. 
 
 Ferozepore. 
 
 Territory lately belonging to Seik chiefs who have been 
 reduced to the condition of British subjects in conse- 
 quence of non-performance of feudatory obligations 
 during Lahore war. 
 
 Cossya Hills. 
 
 Cachar. 
 
 Camroop. 
 
 Nowgong. 
 
 Durrung. 
 
 Ivorhat (Subpoor). 
 
 Luckimpoor. 
 
 Sudiya, including Muttuck. 
 
 South-West Frontier 
 
 Goalpara. 
 
 Darjeeling. 
 
 Arracan. 
 
 Tenasserim Provinces. 
 
 Sumbulpore. 
 
 Raingurh or Haiareebagh. . 
 
 T , , fChota Nagpore. 
 
 Lohuraugiiu ,5 , ^'^ 
 
 ^- l^ralamou. 
 
 Singbhooni. 
 
 I'achete. 
 
 I 
 
 Maunbhoom- 
 
 l^Barabhoom. 
 
 The Punjab, inclusive of the Julundur Doab and Koloo 
 
 Territory. 
 'I'he Sundcrbunds. 
 
 Under the Authority of the Government of the North-West Provinces, 
 
 Saii'jor and Nerbudda 
 
 .lalvun and the Pergunnahs, ceded by Jhansi, 
 
 8augor. 
 
 Jubhulpoor. 
 
 llosliungubad. 
 
 Seoiiee. 
 
 Duiuoli. 
 
 Nursiiigpore. 
 
 liaitool. 
 
 The Butty Territory, including Wuttoo. 
 
 Perguniiah of Kote Kasim. 
 
 Jaunsar iuul Rarvin. 
 
 Dcliruii Doon. 
 
 Kuniaun, including (jihmwal. 
 
 Aj nicer. 
 
 Uritish Mhairwarra. 
 
 British Niinaur.
 
 SELECT COMMITTI-LE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 4«5 
 
 Sinde 
 
 Under tlie Autlioiity of the Coverninent of Madras. 
 
 Ganjam. 
 
 Vizagapatiiin. 
 
 Kurnool. 
 
 Under the Authority of the Government uf Bombay. 
 
 fShikapore. 
 - < Hydrabad. 
 |_Kurrachee. 
 Sattara. 
 
 Appendix, No. 5. 
 
 j^ote. — In 1846 it was deemed expedient to exempt from the jurisdiction of the civi 1 and 
 criminal courts of llie Bombay Presidency certain portions of the collectorates of Candoish 
 and Ahmednuggur. To effect this object," Act XI. of 1846 was passed. 
 
 Statistical Office, East India House,\ 
 17 March 1853. J 
 
 Edw^ Thornton. 
 
 Appendix, No. G. 
 
 Appendix, No. C. 
 
 PAPER delivered in by David Hill, Esq., 10 Marcli 1853. 
 
 COMPARATIVE TABLE of Causes instituted in the late Court of Reijl-ests from Jlay to September 1849, 
 and in the Court of Small Causes from May to September 18.50. 
 
 
 May 
 
 June 
 
 July 
 
 August 
 
 September 
 
 Toi 
 
 AL. 
 
 
 r 
 
 1849. 
 
 1850. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1850. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1850. 
 
 1849. 
 
 1850. 
 
 1849. 1850. 
 
 1849. 
 
 ' 
 
 
 1850. 
 
 ludgments for Plaintifis 
 
 08 1 
 
 398 
 
 541 
 
 655 
 
 634 
 
 90G 
 
 697 
 
 693 
 
 211 
 
 597 
 
 1,672 
 
 1,044 
 
 Ditto - - Defendants - 
 
 06 
 
 oO 
 
 48 
 
 72 
 
 52 
 
 78 
 
 51 
 
 93 
 
 17 
 
 41 
 
 1,490 
 
 1,533 
 
 Nonsuited - - - - 
 
 ■2:^9 
 
 2.).5 
 
 247 
 
 267 
 
 287 
 
 551 
 
 312 
 
 497 
 
 139 
 
 433 
 
 1,782 
 
 2,301 
 
 i^ompromlscd ... 
 
 775 
 
 340 
 
 655 
 
 533 
 
 793 
 
 825 
 
 930 
 
 763 
 
 416 
 
 722 
 
 2,003 
 
 2,047 
 
 [Jodecided .... 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 16 
 
 I 
 
 103 
 
 1 
 
 279 
 
 290 
 
 1,002 
 
 2,083 
 
 Total Number of Suits - 
 
 1,672 
 
 1,044 
 
 1,49G 
 
 1,.533 
 
 1,782 2,361 
 
 2,093 
 
 2,047 
 
 1,062 1 2,083 
 
 1 
 
 8,105 
 
 9,ttC8 
 
 RETURN of Causes instituted in the Court of S.mall Causes from May to September 1850. 
 
 
 Not above 
 10 Rs. 
 
 Above 
 
 10 Rt., 
 
 not abo>e 
 
 20 Rs. 
 
 Above Above 
 
 20 Rs., M Rs., 
 
 not above uot above 
 
 50 Rs. . 100 Ri^. 
 
 Above 
 100 Rs., 
 
 not above 
 200 Rs. 
 
 Above 
 200 Rs., 
 not above 
 300 Rs. 
 
 Above 
 300 Rs., 
 not above 
 400 Rs. 
 
 Above 
 41)0 Rs., 
 not above 
 500 Rs. 
 
 Undecided. 
 
 Total 
 
 of 
 each. 
 
 GRAND 
 TOTAL. 
 
 Say - 1850 
 une - „ 
 
 niy - » 
 
 ept. - „ 
 
 580 
 
 866 
 
 1,526 
 
 1,307 
 
 1,209 
 
 170 
 
 285 
 391 
 344 
 297 
 
 152 
 209 
 260 
 273 
 183 
 
 62 
 83 
 92 
 57 
 53 
 
 41 
 50 
 53 
 42 
 33 
 
 17 
 17 
 19 
 13 
 10 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 8 
 
 7 
 
 
 9 
 "I 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 6 
 1 
 1 
 290 
 
 1,044 
 l,.i33 
 2,301 
 2,047 
 2,083 
 
 
 Total - 
 
 5,488 
 
 1,493 
 
 1,077 347 
 
 : 1 
 
 225 
 
 70 
 
 36 
 
 27 299 
 
 - 
 
 9,OC8 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3 G 3
 
 4i6 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. /• 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 LIST of Petitions referred to the Select Coramiltee on Indian Territori 
 
 Session 18 52-53. 
 
 ES. 
 
 PRATER. 
 
 17 Xovember 1852 - 
 19 November ,, - 
 
 11 February „ 
 
 11 February „ 
 14 February „ 
 14 February ,, 
 
 24 February 1853 - 
 
 24 February „ 
 
 25 February „ 
 
 28 February „ - 
 
 22 February „ 
 
 (referred March 1.) 
 
 3 Marcli „ . 
 
 3 March „ - 
 
 10 Marcli 
 
 14 March 
 
 11 April 
 
 12 April 
 
 - - Ministers and missionaries 
 resident in Calcutta. 
 Charles Hav Cameron 
 
 I Mahomedans of Bombay 
 
 Sheik Ahmed Cubbay 
 Col. W. H. Frith 
 John Sullivan 
 
 - , - - Hindoo inhabitants of Bengal, 
 I Behar and Orissa. 
 
 - - - Retired servants of the Com- 
 pany, merchants and others. 
 
 - I Proprietors of East India Stock - 
 
 18 April 
 18 April 
 18 April 
 
 18 April 
 
 20 April 
 
 21 April 
 25 April 
 29 April 
 
 - - Ministers of the Gospel in 
 Western India. 
 
 Madras - - - . . 
 
 John Epps, M. D.- . . . 
 Rungo Bapojee - - . . 
 Presidency of Bomliay 
 
 - - British and other Christian 
 inhabitants of Calcutta, &c. 
 
 - - Master Cutler and Cutlers' 
 Company of Sheffield and Hal- 
 lamsiiire. 
 
 - - Chairman of the Leeds Cham- 
 ber of Commerce. 
 
 Sheffield - . . - -\ 
 Sunderland . . . _J 
 
 - - Members of the British Indiii 
 
 Association, and otherinhabitants 
 of Bongal. 
 
 Armenian inhabitants of Bengal - 
 
 - - President and members of the 
 Blackburn Commercial Associa- 
 tion. 
 
 Charles Hay Cameron 
 
 - - Chairman of a Meeting at 
 Manchester. 
 
 Frederick Henry Lindsay - 
 
 - - For inquiry into the social condition 
 of the people. 
 
 - - For inquiry as to the propriety of 
 adoptinj; the recommendations of the 
 Commission of 1834. 
 
 - - For alteration of the system in the 
 Bombay Court of Judicature, in cases of 
 inheritance, marriage, &c. 
 
 - - Suggesting measures to iucrease the 
 welfare of the inhabitants. 
 
 • - For inquiry into the claim of his late 
 father. 
 
 - - Complaining of the intended annex- 
 ation of tiie territories of native princes 
 dying without natural heirs. 
 
 - - For preserving to the Hindoos their 
 ancient religion and customs. 
 
 - - That the right of choosing Directors 
 might be granted to holders of the 
 securities. 
 
 - - For a tribunal to determine the 
 claims of persons pretending to be heirs 
 to native states. 
 
 - - For the adoption of measures for the 
 intellectual, moral and religious well- 
 being of India. 
 
 - - For inquiry into the condition and 
 government of British India. 
 
 For justice to the ex-Rajah of Coorg. 
 For the restoration of Sliaroo Maliareij. 
 
 - - Suggesting improvements in the 
 administration of affairs, and praying 
 for inquiry. 
 
 --Suggesting ameliorations and reforms 
 in the future government, and praying 
 for inquiry. 
 
 - - For adoption of certain suggestions 
 for the future government of India. 
 
 - - Suggesting improvements in any le- 
 gislation for the future government of 
 India. 
 
 - - For inquiry into the subject of reform 
 in the government prior to legislation. 
 
 - - Suggesting arrangementsinthefuture 
 government of India. 
 
 - - For securing the full Ijcnefits of the 
 contract, on the faith of which they 
 became settlers. 
 
 - - For inquiring into certain measures 
 of reform for the future government. 
 
 - - For thtt iidoption of a system of edu- 
 cation for tlie natives of India. 
 
 - - For the reform of the Home Govern- 
 ment of India. 
 
 - - For a tribunal to investigate his 
 claims in any future legislation for the 
 Government of India. 
 
 The Petition of the undersigned Ministers and Missionaries resident in Calcutta, 
 Humbly showeth, 
 fl, Jv")?.!" ^t"'" P^*''*'"",<^''« "'- f^f'^l'l.v int.resfod in the welfare of the people of India • that 
 
 one r.v/ngtd true Goi.""" ""'''""" ^^'" '^' '"'"'^ '' '""' ''°'^ ^°^''^ ^''^^'^'P "^ ">- 
 
 That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 417 
 
 That your petitioners observe with anxious attention the deliberations of tlie British Appendix No. 7- 
 
 Parhament on all subjects connected with India ; and niori' especially now, when the 
 
 cliarter of the East Intiia Company is under consideiation, they await the result with the 
 most earnest desire that your Honourable House may be guided by wisdom tVoin above, 
 and may be led to the adoption of measures that will augment ai once the power ami the 
 honour of the British nation, and the welfiire and happiness of this great countrv. 
 
 That early in the present year some of your petitioners transmitted to both Houses of 
 Parliament petitions praying that measures might be taken to ascertain the exact nature 
 and extent of the connexion still subsisting between the Government of India and the 
 Hindu and Mahomedan religions, and to dissolve and extinguish thai connexion com- 
 pletely and for ever. 
 
 That the jjetitioners also, in the said petitions, called attention to a despatch of tlie Court 
 of Diiectois in 1847, forbiddinir their servants to take part \n missionary undertakings, and 
 praving for a copy of that document. 
 
 That your peiitior.ers feel much anxiety on these points, and earnestly pray that your 
 Honourable House will direct your attention to them. 
 
 That some of vour petitioners have recently addressed a memorial to tlie Governor- 
 general of Iiidiain Council, praying that a certain draft Act for the final discontinuance of 
 the grant which hitherto has been made annually by the Government of India to the Temple 
 of Jagannath at Puri may be passed into a law, and declaring the conviction of the said 
 )3etitioners that no compensation whatever, in law or in equity, is due to that temple, and 
 prayine, therefore, ihat none may be paid. 
 
 That vour petitioners await the result of that memorial with anxious expectation, having 
 long and deeply mourned over the support by the Government of India of a shrine whicli 
 for many ages has been the scene of giojs idolatry and indes>rihable misery ; and your 
 pptitinners pray diat no final measures may be adojjted for the renewal of the powers of 
 the Eist India Company till effectual sieps have been taken to remove that scandal, as 
 well as to secure the compleie separation of the Company's Government from the Hnidu 
 and Mahomedan leligiims, \n all the various circumstances wherein there still subsists any 
 direct or indirect connexion between them. 
 
 That your petitioners desire to call the atiention of your Honourable House to other 
 points tliat affect the interests of India, especially in the Presidency of Bengal, wlarein 
 your petitioners reside and labour. 
 
 Tiiat your petitioners liave reason to believe tiat there is a vast amount of social disor- 
 ganization, and of consequent suffering, in the whole countrv. .Much of this your petitioners 
 can trace to theftarful superstition of the people, 10 their iunorance, and to thi^ debasing 
 effects of a popular mythology, which presents as objects of worship deities who are 
 examples of evt-ry vice, and which ascribes sanctity and divine honour 10 a priesthood 
 wliich is the principal curse of India. But, speaking particularly of this great Presidency 
 of Bengal, vour petitioners would represent to your Honourable House the existence of 
 evils wliich it tails properly within the scope of Government to meet and to control. The 
 evils resulting from the relisimis ot the couniry vour petitioner^ believe to have been 
 greatly diminished since the commencement of Christian missions; and they willingly 
 accord to the Government of India the praise of having abolished satis, and checked 
 infanticide, ihuggism, and tlie once prevalent practice of self-inimulation. Your petitioners 
 do not now hear of the teriible occurrences with which their prclecessors were familiar, of 
 women drowning themselves publicly at the junction of the Ganges and the Jumna; of 
 others sitting in pits to be smothered bv heavy baskets of sand ; and of devotees yielding 
 themselves to death in the piesence of multitudes, U\ means which n quire the active par- 
 ticipation of heartless accessaries. A more just apprehension of their duty by die judicial 
 officers of Governinent has restrained such suicides, by dealing with the accessaries as 
 guilty of murder; and the enactment of severul wise and salutarv laws has restrained the 
 otlier clas-es of crimes which your peiitioiieis have mentioned. Your petitioners believe, 
 however, that these results must in a large measure be ascrilied to the growing influence of 
 Chiisiiaii missions, which have been blessed no less in raisiui;- the standard of piety and 
 justice among tlie Europeans in India, than in the enlightenment of the consciences of the 
 natives. But there are other evils with which ihe Government, as such, has to contend, 
 and which your petitioners ree;ret to declare appear to be on the increase. Your petitioners 
 greatly fear that it will be found on inquiry that in many districts of Bengal neither life nor 
 property are secure; that gang robberies of the most daring character are perpetrated 
 annuallv in great n urn beis with impunity; and that there are constant scenes ot violence 
 in conitntioiis respectiiig disputed boundaries between thecuners of landed estates. 
 
 That vour petitioners submit to your Honourable House that the ra^lical cause of boih 
 these evils is the inefficiency of tlie police and the judicial system. Vour petitioners find 
 that the sole protection of the pulilic peace in many places is a body of policemen (called 
 village chowkedars), who are in fact the ministers of the most powerful ot their neighbours, 
 rather than the protectors of the people. The body of peace-officers appoinleu and paid 
 directly by the State will, on inquiry, be found to be entirely insufficient for the great 
 districts for which they are provided ; but, few as they are, they also will be found to be 
 oppressors of the people. The records of the criminal courts, and the expeiicnce of eveiy 
 resident in the districts of Bengal, will bear testimony to the facts that no confidence can 
 be placed in the police force (either the regular hjrce or the village chowkedars) : that it is 
 o. : 0. 304 their
 
 4i8 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Ajipendix, No. 7. tlieir practice to extort confessions by torture; and that while tliev are powerless to 
 
 resist the srangfs of orsanized burglars or datoits, they are corrupt enou"h to connive at 
 
 their atrocities. 
 
 That your petitioners believe that a strict anil searching inquiry into the state of the 
 rural population vi' Bengal would lead your Honourable House to thf conclusion iliat they 
 commonly live in a state of poverty and wretchedness, produced chiefly by the present 
 system of landed tenures, and the extortion of the zemindars, aggravated by the mefticiency 
 and the cruelties of the peace-officers, who are paid by the chowkedarry lax or by the 
 Government. 
 
 That your petitioners believe that a well-organized police, with a more extensive and more 
 efl'ectual judicial system, would do much to check the outrages that arise from disputes 
 about land. But your petitioneis must also ascribe nmch of the evil which these outrages 
 pioduce to the cau^es by which primarily such disputes are occasioned. Your petitioners 
 must declare, tinit from the want of a complete survey of the estates of the country, of a 
 Registration Act to settle titles, and of laws to obviate the infinite mischief of the universal 
 system of secret trusts, there is so much uncertainty about the landed tenures and boun- 
 daries in Benual, that capitalists generally dread to jmrchase such property, and those who 
 do, too frequently keep bodies of clubmen to take and keep by force the extent of land to 
 which they deem themselves entitled. Between contending proprietors, amidst scenes of 
 constant conflict, and a prey to the corruption and the oppression of the police, the tenant 
 is led need not merely to beggary, but also, in many cases, to a state of the most abject 
 and pitiiible servitude. 
 
 That vour petitioners attribute many of the evils that exist in this Presidency to the fact 
 that (unlike the other Presidencies of India) it has no separate governor. VVhiic the 
 North-western Provinces, during the i)ast eiglit years, have enjoyed the benefit of the rule of 
 the same able and experienced governor, the Presidency of Bengal in ilie same period has. 
 had cijiht successive changts of rulers ; and in every case, whether the Governor-general 
 or the Deputy-Go\ernor was, lorthe time being, ruler of the laud, he has been encumbered 
 also with other and weighty duties, as a member of the Supreme Council of India. 
 
 That your petitioners jittribute also to the want of a separate governor for this Presidency 
 the fact, that while much has been done in judicious and beneficial public works in the 
 North-western Provinces and the Madias Presidency, and very recently also in the Pun- 
 jaub, this gieat Presidency, which contains 35,000,000 of people, and yields nearly half 
 of the entire revenue of India, has been very greatly neglected, and cannot be said now to 
 have more than one good road of any considerable extent; while a vast portion of the 
 country remains altogether untraversed and uninvestigated, and, in fact, never has been 
 visited by any of tlie Governors of Bengal from the day when the Company first obtained 
 the Dewanny. 
 
 That your petitioners believe that justice calls for a separate Government for Bengal ; and 
 in order to render it as effective as jjossible, your petitioners submit that the limits of the 
 Presidency should be curtailed, and that Arracaii and the Tenasserim provinces, with Penaiig 
 and Singapoie, might be formed into a separate Presidency. 
 
 Th.it tlieie are many measures to v.hich your petitioners would desire the attention of 
 your Honourable House to be directed in connexion with the Government of Bengal. T!ie 
 principal of these your petitioners beg leave to submit as follows : 
 
 1. The appointment for the Presidency of Bengal of a separate governor, who shall be 
 relieved of all share in tiie general Government of India. 
 
 2. The entire and thorough reform of the police, by consolidating the village or zemin- 
 darry chow kedars and the Government police, and the |>lacing all under active, trustworthy, 
 and ifficicnt superintendence. Your petitioners believe that it is ditHcult to over-estimate 
 the impurtance of a comprehensive, enlightened, and benevolent settlement of this subject, 
 so thiit a police force, worthy of the British Government, and under the direct control of 
 cofifidentiiil and efficient officers, may at length be provided for this country. 
 
 3. The summary and severe piinisliuient of peijury and forgery immt diatelyon their detec- 
 tion, in judicial procei dings. Your petitioners regard a measure of this kind as one of the 
 chief wants of tliis countiy, for perjury has almost ceased to be regarded as morally wrong; 
 it constitutes the stock-in-trade by v\hich numerous witnesses for hire subsist. The impu- 
 nity and succf ss with which systematii! perjury, and tlie forgery of documents, arc commonly 
 practised, tend to encourage the already too prevalent habits of falsehood and deception 
 anion<r the great body of the people, and as a iiecess ,ry conseqmuicc justice is now ctm- 
 stantly mo( ked ;md defe.iied, or the powers of the law are used, witliont remorse, as engines 
 of oj)|iressioii and extortion, tiirough the infamous arts of the traders in corrupt litigaiioii. 
 
 4. The reduction of the size of the judicial districts, in which, at present, the chief 
 station i.s commonlv so far removed from the greater number cd the towns ami villages, tliat 
 ju-tici', in many mstanees, is pr;ictieally iitnicd, and in a very large number of others is 
 obt'.imeil under difhculties and disconiiigements, and at a loss of time and moncv, that 
 rend, r ev< ry connexion with judicial jjroceedings a lieavy calamity, alike to the suitors and 
 the vviiuesses. Your petitioners believe that careful inquiry would prove that many persons 
 of various ranks throughout the country are enabled by their distance from the seat of 
 justice to set the law at defiance, and that the trreat expense of carrying witnesses so far, 
 and of support ing ibeiii while detained, is one of the chief temptations that lead to the 
 eniploxnitnt of the mercenary perjureis who infest every court and judicial station. 
 
 5. The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 419 
 
 ft. The increase of the number of judicial officers, and their suitable and satisfactory Appendix^, Mo. 7, 
 
 preparation for tiio important task of adminislering justice, so that the law niay be ad- 
 
 ministered in every district on a uniform system, and on just, definite, and intelligible 
 principles. 
 
 0. The institution of all criminal suits on viva voce applications only; and the adminis- 
 tration of justice on viva voce evidence only, to be taken by the judge or magistrate in 
 person. Your petitioners admit that to a certain extent justice is already thus adminis- 
 tered ; but to a very great extent written depositions, taken down and read to the oiKciating 
 officer by venal men, are used in the mofussil courts ; and this practice, your petitioners 
 submit, leads to much uncertainty, to constant misunderstandings, and great injustice; 
 while, at the same time, it deprives the courts of the well-known advantages of personal 
 conference with the witnesses in the presence of the parties. 
 
 7. A careful and complete survey of the country, to fix the boundaries of the villages 
 and landed estates ; and a renewal of the survey wherever the encroatliments of the rivers, 
 or other causes, render it desirable. 
 
 8. All Act for the registration of titles and deeds relating to land, carried out in a 
 comprehensive and liberal spirit. 
 
 9. An Act to check the prevalent system of secret trusts, commonly called benamee 
 transactions. The evils which a measure of this kind would meet are so extensive in 
 this Country as to become a m;irked peculiarity in its social system. Among these evils 
 the prevalence of litigation and frauds on creditors are notorious; but other evils, of a 
 less obvious though not less serious nature, will on inquiry be found to arise from the 
 benamee system. 
 
 10. A measure to encourage capitalists of enterprise and public spirit to purchase land, 
 and also to encourage smaller iiolders to raise themselves to the position of independent 
 freeholders, by providing such means as shall be just and equitable alike to the State 
 and to the purchasers, for the permanent redemption or commutation of the present 
 land-tax. 
 
 11. A nieusure for the promotion throughout the whole countiy of a cheap elementary 
 system of vernacular education, and the removal of jdl restriction on the Ciiristiaii teachers 
 in any of the Government schools and colleges, affording instruction in Christianity when 
 it is sought by tiie pupils. 
 
 12. The periodical publication of full and clear statistical comparative returns of the po- 
 pulation, resources, and progress of this Presidency. 
 
 13. Tiie piohibition by law of the public barbarities which accompany the Churruck 
 Puja, and also the prohibition of every other public exhibition of fanaticism, whereby 
 the moral sense of the community is debased and ruined, and human life is endiingered. 
 
 14. The regulation of the practice of carrying sick persons from their houses to the 
 river's bank, with the view of preventing the abuse of the popular superstition into a 
 means of hastening death in fatal diseases, and rendering it inevitable in the case of any 
 whose diseases are not of that character. 
 
 15. The introduction of a system of general visitation of the Presidency by the Go- 
 vernor for the time being, so that he may become closely and intimately acquainted vrith 
 the qualifications of the subordinate officers of Government, with the general administra- 
 tion of public affaiis, with the local wants and feelings of the people, and with the progress 
 of the public works. 
 
 IG. The extension of the means of internal communication by the incrca'-e and improve- 
 ment of reads, add of the postal arrangements throughout the country. Your petitioners 
 believe that few things would tend more rapidly to the soci;d improvement of the 
 country than the increase of the means of intercourse and communication. 
 
 17. The liberal encouragement of all public works which are calculated to develope 
 and iiniJiove the resources and trade of the country. Y'our petitioners submit that such 
 encouragement is very much needed, and as a proof they beg to state, that even in the 
 immediate vicinity of Calcutta, the two canals by which, during tight months of the 
 year, the great majority of boats leave or approach the commercial capital of India, are 
 utterly inadequate to the immense traffic of which they are the channels. Your peti- 
 tioners also apprehend that inquiry will prove that the resources of some districts are at 
 present almost entirely lost and wasted, through ihe want of public works that would 
 give vent to the industry of the inhabitants and the products of tlie soil. 
 
 18. The complete and absolute severance of the Government of India from all con- 
 nexi'jn, direct or indirect, with the Hindu and Mahomedan religions. 
 
 Thai your petitioners believe that from these measures, together with the constant 
 operation on the Government of India of public opinicm, and oi' the vigilnnce of the Par- 
 liament ill Great Britain, results the most important aiul desiralile might speedily "be 
 
 secured. 
 
 That your petitioners submit to your Honourable House that it is the paramount duty of 
 the Guveiniuent of India to [irouKUe the highest interests of the jieuple committed to their 
 care, and tlial all measures whereby revenue is laised 10 the detruneiit of the public 
 nuuals is a violation of this duty. 
 
 o.io. Q H That
 
 420 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. That your petitioners fear tliat on inquiry it will be found that the abkaree system, for 
 
 the reguhnion of the ?ale of wines, spirits, and drugs, has in practical operation tended to 
 
 foster amof.j; n people, whose higiiest commendation was tempeiance, a ruinous taste for 
 ardent spirits and destructive drugs, by ihe efforts made to establish licensed new depots 
 for lluni, ill placts where the use of such things was little or not at all known before; 
 and your petitioners therefore pray that your Honourable House will inquire into this 
 matter, with a view to the abkaree system proving a check rather than an encouragement 
 to the use of intoxicaling drugs and spirits. 
 
 That your petitioners observe with much regret the continuance of the East India 
 Company's exiensive trade in opium. Your petitioners view the tralhc carried on with 
 China in this contiaband diug as second only to the slave-trade in iniquity, and they 
 regard the collection of a i;ieat revenue from the opium monopoly by the East India 
 Company, under the sanction of the British Legislature, as a breach of faith with the 
 Chinese Governmnit, and as an odious participation in a guilty and runious trade, which 
 they view with amazement and abhorrence. 
 
 That your petitioners earnestly desire to see the Government of India relieved from the 
 fearful responsibihtv of raising revenue by providing annuallv an enormous quantity of a 
 drug, which is notoriously purchased and shipped to China under British sanction, to gratify 
 the morbid craving of multitudes of infatuated pe0|)le for its enervating and fatal poison. 
 
 That your petitioners submit that good faith with the Government of China, and common 
 humanity to the unhappy myriads who annually ruin their health anil destroy their lives 
 by opium in China, should lead the British Government in India, as well as in the China 
 Seas, to check and to repress the wicked traffic by which the drug is supplied for the 
 market in Bnmbay and in Calcutta, and is then shipped to and clandestinely sold as con- 
 traband in China. 
 
 That your petitioners are ready to acknowledge that there has been a great improve- 
 ment in the spirit and measures of the Government of India since the Charter of 1813 was 
 granted; but your petitioners have felt it to be their duty to bear testimony to the existing 
 state and wants of Bengal, and they submit to your Honourahle House that to secure the 
 continuance and increase of the zial of the East India Cmnpany for the improvement of 
 this country, it would be better to limit ilie period ol their powers to a shorter period than 
 iwentv years, so that the manner in which tiiey have been exercised may again speedily 
 come under review. 
 
 That y<mr petitioners fear that the present year has been marked by so many unexpected 
 public events, and by so much political excitement respecting the state of parties and the 
 future |)olicy of GovernuKnt in Great Britain, that the subject of the East India Company's 
 Charter has not been investigated so deeply as it wouhl Lave been by your Honourable 
 House in a period of greater public tranquillity; and your petitioners submit that this is 
 another reason of much fon e and importance for the limitation of the Charter now con- 
 templated to a period less than twenty years. 
 
 That your petitioners further submit to your Honourable House that it would be wise 
 and expedient to make such changes in the home government of India as would tend to 
 secure the services of persons who had gained local experience ; and further to provide that 
 in the distribution of ihe valuable patronage of the East India Company, a large part should 
 be reserved (or the toward and encouragement of superior and eminent talent and industry 
 in the principal schools and colleges ol' Great Britain. 
 
 That your |)elitioneri thaiiklully assure your Honourahle House that they have been 
 abun'ianily riicouraged in their own efforts to improve the condition of India, and that the 
 whole Protestant mission in the country have been favoured wiih many and remarkable 
 tokens of the Divine blessina'. Your petitioneis beg permission to iiifurin your Honourable 
 House, that at ihe |>reseiit time the nuuiber (jf ordained Protestant missionaries in India ex- 
 ci eds 400, and that they have gathered into tin- visible Church of Ci'.ri-t 103,000 converts; 
 that they are lecciving the aid of 551 native preachers, have upwards of 300 native churches, 
 1,340 veriiaenlar day-schools, 73 boaiding-scliools, and I'ZO I'.iiglish dav-scliouls, besides 
 tipwaids of 440 day-schools for native girls ; that the comply te Bible has hi eu translated into 
 10 of the languages of India, and the New Testamtnt into live more; that a very consider- 
 able vernacular Christian literature has already been provided for the peo])le ; and that 
 a spirit o( iiujiiiry, a dcsiie li/r education, and a gencial lefling of respect for Christianity 
 and for Ciinstian teachers, h ive been excited in all the spheres of the missions. 
 
 Your peiitioinrs dc(;ply deplore the inadequacy of their numbers, and the partial extent 
 to which zeal for (lie conveision of the heathen is manifested in Great Hiiiaiii, and they 
 earnestly and constantly implore the I.oid of ihe harvest to awaken a wider and more 
 alleeting sense of India's destitution among all «ho profess and call themselves Christians ; 
 but, at the same tiiin , ihey are bmiiiil to record v^itli devout thankfulness the progiess that 
 has been made, and tliev anticipate with confidence increasing [jroofs that the ancient 
 systems of superstition are f.st cmmblinii' away, and that the day is approaching when t'.ie 
 light of the Gospel of Christ w.ll bless all the liimilies of this country. 
 
 Your petitioners ^latefullv record the pa-sing of an Act by the Government of India in 
 1050, whereby the rights of native Christians are secured; but they regiel that this and 
 other measures ol equal siniplieiiv and jiiitice were obtained only alter great and iiarassing 
 d( lays, and they now have to laineiil over the continuance of other evils which a more just, 
 
 prompt
 
 SELECT COMMITfEE ON INDIAN TERUITOHIHS. 421 
 
 prompt a".(l vigoious ailministiation of iiul)Iic, affairs might loii-r since have reinovfd, unil Appendix No. 
 
 the removal ol which might have tciuifd greatly to the iinpiovemeiU of ihe condition of the • 
 
 pei)|)le, and their willingness to consider the Gospel, as well as to that independence and 
 strength of mind and character whicii tiie profession of a new religion in scenes of ancient 
 idolatiy and suijerstition especially requires. 
 
 That your petitioners are deeply impressed with a solemn conviction that this great and 
 populous ciiuntry has been entrusted as a sacred chart>e and stewardshij) to the Govern- 
 ment of Great IJiilain ; ihat the hand of God was nevermore visible in the history of nations 
 than it lias been in the progress of British power in India; and that every consideration 
 of inierest and duty hlronld combine to secure from the British Legislature every measure 
 that is calculated to elevate and improve the class of its rulers, and its judicial and ministe- 
 rial officers. The influence of India on the whole continent of Asia, your petitioners believe, 
 has already been remarkably powerful and extensive; and that influence, if the country 
 be governed in an enlarged spirit of wisdom and benevolence, and if the blessing of the God 
 of nations rest on the efforts alike of the Government and of the preachers of the everlastinc,- 
 Gospel of peace, may ultimately prove the immediate cause of that great and univtrsal 
 change in the whole social and religious state of this continent, with its vast population of 
 more than half mankind, whicli the Scriptures of truth lead the Churc-h of Christ confidently 
 to expect. Your petitioners therefore regard the present time, when the subject of the 
 Government of India is under the consideration of your Honourable House, as a period of 
 momentous importance; and they earnestly implore that your Honourable House may be 
 so guided by the Spirit of the Lord into wise and righteous conclusions, that generations yet 
 unborn may celebrate with thankfulness and joy this era in the annals of the British 
 err, pi re. 
 
 Finally, your petitioners earnestly pray that your Honourable House will be pleased to 
 Consider the premises ; to apply to the subject of the government, and to the moral, social, 
 and religious condition of India, and to her material resources and political difficulties, the 
 most comprehensive, minute, and searching scrutiny ; and, finaliy, to pass such measures 
 as sliall redound to the honour and glory of God, as wtll as to the happiness and prospe- 
 rity of the people whom He has given to the dominion of Great Britain. 
 
 W. S. Mackay, 
 Missionary of the Free Cluirch of Scotland. 
 
 D. Ewarl, 
 Missionary of the Free Church of Scotland. 
 
 Jno. Smith, 
 Missionary of the Free Church of Scotland. 
 &c. &c. Stc. 
 
 The Huml)le Petition of Charles Hay Cameron, late Fourth Member of the Council of 
 India, President of the Indian Law Commission, and of the Council of Education for 
 Bengal, 
 
 Humbly showeth, 
 That your petitioner was appointed a member of the Indian Law Commission in the year 
 1834, and continued in that body as member or president until the year 1848. 
 
 Tiiat in the course of the years intervening between 1834 and 1848 the Law Commission 
 sketched out a system of law and of judicial establishments and procedure for British 
 India, whereof the following parts have been fully elaborated, and reduced into the form of 
 Acts of the Indian Legislature : 
 
 A penal code. 
 
 A plan of a model criminal court. 
 
 A plan of criminal procedure. 
 
 A plan of a model civil court, and of civil procedure. 
 
 A plan for the abolition of the Recorder's Court in the Straits of Malacca, and for 
 
 the constitution of air improved judicature there. 
 A law of prescription and limitation. 
 A /ex loci for British India. 
 
 That, So fir as your petitioner knows, the home authorities have not felt themselves in ;i 
 condition to pronounce a decision upon any one of the above propositions, except the plan 
 of a model civil court and civil procedure. 
 
 That, so far as your petitioner knows, the Legislature of India has not felt itself competent 
 to pronounce a decision upon any one of the above propositions. 
 
 That in the reports by which the Law Commissioner^ explained and justified the propo- 
 sitions above enumerated, and in various other repoits, they have discussed a great number 
 of important questions of jurisprudence. 
 
 The fusion ol law and equity. 
 Special pleading. 
 Appellate judicature. 
 
 o.io. 3 H -2 Small
 
 422 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appeoilix, No. 7. Small cause judicature, and its fusion witli general judicature. 
 
 The jury, or the association of the public with the business of judicature. 
 
 The trainina; of candidates for the judicial ollice. 
 
 That the labours of the Law Commission, which, whatever nirtv be their intrinsic value, 
 have cost a great deal of public money, will, as your petitioner apprehends, be lost to the 
 people of India, and that the similar labours of any persons who may be app,)uUed to 
 complete the task imposed upon the Law Commissioa by Parliament, in the Statute 
 3 8c 4 Will. 4 c. 85, ss. 4:5 to 55, will in like manner be lost to the people of India, unless 
 they should be referred to competent jurists, who may decide upon theii merits. 
 
 That your petitioner has lately read in the Minutes of Evidence taken by the Select 
 Committee of the House of Lords, appointed last Session to inquire into the operation of 
 the Act 3 &, 4 Will. 4, c. 85, for the bjetter Government of Her Majesty's Indian Territories, 
 the evidence of David Hill, Esq., examiner in the judicial department at the India House. 
 
 That in the said evidence is to be found the following passage, which seems to be confir- 
 uialory of vour petitioner's statements: 
 
 "Thev (the Home Government) have little means of revising the legisla'.ive proceedings 
 <if the Indian Government, where a decision has been arrived at by the Governor-general, 
 with his Indian councillors, and the fourth member of council, as well as by the Law Cora- 
 mission, consisting of the best men who could be selected to consider such a subject. 
 There is no authority, either at the India House or the India Board, or anywhere else, to 
 •whom the case could be submitted for a higher opinion. It would be a reference from a 
 higher authority to a lower, to ask any one else to pass judgment upon what has already 
 been under ihedeliberate consideration of such men as Mr. Macaiday, Mr. Cameron, Mr. 
 iMacleod, and afterwards under that of the Governor-general and his colleagues. There 
 are no means of revising it. Indeed there are no uieans of revising ordinary acts of the 
 Indian Legislature. Thert- is a power of disallowance given to the home authorities, but 
 that has respect to the general effect of a law." 
 
 Your petitioner therefore prays. 
 
 That the above-mentioned propositions and discussions of the Law Commission may be 
 submitted to the consideration of competent jurists, who may dtcide whether the recom- 
 mendations of the said Commission are or are not fit to be adopted. 
 
 And your petitioner will ever piay. 
 
 C. H. Cameron. 
 
 15 November 1052. 
 
 The Humble Petition of certain Mahomedan Inhabitants of Bombay, 
 
 Showeth, 
 
 That your petitioners are of Bombay Mahomedan inhabitants, many of them for several 
 generations, and otiiers since ihe alienation and transfer of the island from the Portuguese 
 (jovernnient to the renowned throne and paternal caie of Great Britain. At the time of 
 such transfer Bombay was, comparativelv spe:iking, in a miserable condition and thinl}' 
 populated; whereas now, under the fostering care of the British Government, it has risen 
 gradually to its present eminence, and become the chief port and commercial city of Western 
 India, containing a population of at least 500,000 souls, of vvhoni one-filth are Mahome- 
 ilans. Such a gicat and beneficial change in the condition of any country c.iunot but 
 leflect the highest credit on its rulers, to whom, under ProvidencL', all its blessings and 
 comfbris are mainly due. 
 
 Your petitioners are Mahomedans, belonging chiefly to the " Shafai and Hanafi sects," 
 whose creed it is to believe in one God, and the holy prophet Mahomed ; may the blessing of 
 ■<^Jod continually rest upon him, the selected and last iMopiiet. We aUo believe his four Khalifs 
 and their regular successors, as we are enjoined to believe ; your peiiiioners aie called " Sun- 
 nies" and '' Ahia Sunnat Juinmat." This subject is fully explained in the preliminary dis- 
 •••ourse to " Sale's Koran," wherein he gives a detailed accnunt of tiie four orthodox Malio- 
 niedan sects, " Hanafi, Shafai, Malaki, and Ilnmbali," |)rivailini; throughout the world. A 
 leference to that discourse, and also to that mentioned at the bcLiiiining of the first volume 
 ' f Ilaniillon s translation oi " llidayali," will fully explain the whole subject. That when 
 your |)ctitioneis enjoyed the benefit of ihc late Recorder's Court in Bombay, cases between 
 Alahomedan plaintiffs and delcudanls, having reference to maiters of inheritance, marriage, 
 <livorct', wills, gilts, &,c., «cre invariably decided in strict accordance wiih the laws of the 
 ■' Koran " laid down in the Mahonieilan law books. Matters, however, have altered since 
 the introduction of Her Majesty's* Supreme Court of Judicature at the Presidency; both 
 
 the 
 
 * Tlie Cliarlcr nnd Ant .37 Oeo. ."), c. 142, 1842, decroed that suits of inheritance should be determined, 
 in the ciivc (,f Miilionu'daii, iiccoriJinp to the Mulioniediiu hiw and usage; the inference plainly is, 
 jMiihoniedan usage, not Iliiuhi nr iiitidtl usage.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 0\ INDIAN TERRITORIES. 4-3 
 
 the appointment of Maliomcdan and Hindoo law officers liavi- been abolished, and in Appendix, N'j 
 
 several Cci«e.s it now frecjiicntiy occiiis t!;at a cuirect explanation of those laws is not made 
 
 to tlic Couit. 
 
 As a case in point, yourpi'titloner? would refer to the following particulars. In 1840, ;i 
 case of disputed iidieritanie arose awion'^st one of ilie various Sunni secis, coninionlv 
 known and calltd by ihe si vie of " Cuichy Memon," who were undoubtedly ISunnies of 
 the Hanafi sect, pirformin.: tlie n-liuious rites of worship, fastinsi, ])il<ivinra<;e, building- 
 mosques, &c., in common wuh the usages i.i force amongst your petitioners. In that case 
 the widow, to whom our iioly Koran * has specifically defined one-fourtii of her husband's 
 estate, he having left no issue, and property to a large amount, applied to the heads of her 
 castes for her lawful shnre. On their diclining to recognise her ri'^hts, she filed a bill in 
 184;> in the Supreme Curt. The defendants being the male paity, and in possession of 
 the large property hft by the defeased, pleaded to the said bill, setting forth that they 
 were Kutchy Menions, formerly ot the Lowana inKdel caste, that ihev were converted to 
 Mahomeilanism about 300 yeais ago, and that altiiough they are now perfect Mahome- 
 dans, yet they iciain their ancestral custom of depriving their females, mothers, daughters, 
 sisters, widows, <d anv inheritance of the property of their respective rt latives deceased. 
 The complainant remonstrated with them upon the inconsistencv and heresy of such a 
 plea; for after that their forelaihers had become Mahomedans, their descendants also 
 became iVIahomedans, and swore by the Koran, they had no right whatsoever to claim the 
 privilei!,e of the customs of their infidelity. Then- duty plainly was to obey and follow 
 the Mahomedan law of the Koran, in which saciL-d "book it is distinctly laid down, 
 " Whoso judgeth not according to whiit God hath revealed, thev are infidels." It was further 
 urged that the holy Koran instructed that men ought to have a pan of what tluir parents 
 and kindred leave behind them when they die, and woimn also ougiit to have a part of 
 what their parents and kindred leave. This law was given to abohsh a custom of the 
 Pagan Arabs, who sufl'ered not women or children to have any pari, of the husband's or 
 father's inheritance, on pretence that they only should inherit who were able to go to war. 
 But all aiguuient was of no avail ; the defendnnis stoutly lefused to give the widow any 
 share, insisting upon their ancestral custom : and at lengUi issue was joined in this case, 
 and the matter tame on for hearing before the Court. 
 
 In due form of law the case was heard publicly, and the defendants being influential 
 persons, and in possession of the immense wealth of the deceased, caused certain insignifi- 
 cant and illiterate persons to be set up as the Mookuddums of the caste, in order to prove 
 their alleged customs, and these persons having adduced their witnesses to support their 
 infidel views, they declared, that though they were Mabomedans, yet, in respect of the 
 laws of inheritance, and giving a share to females, ihey do not obey the laws of the 
 Koran, differing in this respect from its precepts, their females invariably being excluded 
 from all ()articipation in any property left behind them by their kindred. 
 
 Upon such evidence, the Court, without the least regard to the written law of the Koran 
 and other Mahomedan law books, allowed the said alleg'ed infidel custom to control and abro- 
 gate the holy law of the Koran, the production of other law texts fiom Sale's translation of 
 the Koran, the translation of " Mishka't Shanff," or that of " Shirajea," by Sir W.Jones, 
 and from Sir W. Macnaghten, distinctly declares, " that usage, legally speaking, is always 
 inoperative in opposition to that whicii is sanctioned by law;" and yet an alleged custom, 
 admitted on all hands to be in direct opposition to the plain and distinct law of the Koran, 
 was allowed 10 rule the decision of Her Majesty's Judges f in the Supreme Court. i 
 Thus has a great blow been struck, under the English authority, at the JMahomedan 
 religion, abrogating the written law of the Koran on the evidence of three or four insiof- 
 niticant individuals, whose bare assertion of a pi evading custom, unsupported by any 
 documentary proof, was allowed greater weight than the established law. It was well 
 argued at the hearing of the ca^e, that the Mahomedan law being a part of the Mahome- 
 dan religion, no deviation could be allowed fiom th.e Koran, and no deviation from it of 
 any nature whatever could be recognized in a court of justice. A person who becomes a 
 Mahomedan does not embrace a part of the religion, but must become in the whole a 
 Mussulman; he must be a Mahomedan or no Mahomedan ; if the former, he can have no 
 other law but the law of the Koran. The Mahomedans conceive their law to be an emana- 
 tion from the Prophet; it is therefore a sacred law, and no court can depart therefrom. 
 The illegality cf any custom contrary to religion and law is obvious. But every objection, 
 
 however 
 
 * Vide Sale's Koran, vol. I, p. 46, chap. 4 ; also Macnaghten's, vol. 1, pp. 2, a, and 38 ; in Sir W, 
 Jones' Sirajij'a, vol. 3 of, on MaliomeiJan Law of Inheritance. 
 
 t The Honourable Sir Erskine Perry was at this time acting Chief Justice, nnil had not a colleague 
 on the Ijench. 
 
 und. inucecl, in a iNlalionicddu »-«*iiiiui >, m^ mmi j7ivjie.T:?iiij^ lu m; a muuoint'tian wouiu, cxcoin ai me pern 
 of his life, urge an infidel custom in opposition to the JJivine law ; yet the alleged custmu was allowoU 
 the preference in Bomljay. 
 
 O.IO. 3 H 3
 
 424 APP1':XDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. however strongly urged and maintained, was oveiruled; the illegal infidel customs of thr 
 
 defendants were supporteil ; the plain imrnistakeiible wise law of the Koran was siijice 
 
 seded ; and the complainant dejjrived of her legal and hiwiul right to share in her la \. 
 iiusband's property. 
 
 Such a decision cannot bin be regiU'ded as a grievance of no small magnitude by the 
 Mahomedan Sunnies, and particularly so by the females of the sect; and it would have 
 been appealed against to Her Alajesty's Privy Council, but for the great expense of such 
 appeal; the said complainant and lier friends having exhausted all tiieir means, to the 
 extent of 10,000 rupees (1,000 /.), in the prosecution of ihcir suit in ihc Supreme Court. 
 
 Your petitioners consider themselves aggrieved by this decision, not only in consequence 
 of the personal injiu'v iiiilieted on the complainant, but that it will form a dangeious 
 precedent, and be quolid as authority for ihe decision in future oi any disputes that may 
 arise :imong either of the four sects alluded to, any one of whom may, in order to defeat 
 tlie ends of justice and the lawful claims of an opponent, set up a vexatious and false 
 statement of the customs of his tribe directly contrary to the plain law ; and such acts, if 
 permitted to pass unnoticed and with impunity, may eventually lead to the sul)ver^ion and 
 abrogation of the laws laid down in the Koran, which God forbid, ;'.nd thus lead to the 
 more fearful and imminent danger of abrogating in this pait of the worhl the Mahomedan 
 faith, a faiili whicli is dearer to us than life. 
 
 Your petitioners and all Mahomedans arc strictly enjoined to follow the Koran, the 
 Prophet's Hadi<, from which our principal laws are taken. It is the law, from which no 
 deviation can be tolerated, that so long as we find a written l.iw we are bound to adhere to 
 it ; much less cm we follow any custom known to be in direct opposition to the law ; of 
 whatever standing such custom may be, it may bs inoperative so long as it is opposed to 
 that which is sanctioned by law. VV^hen custom is in any case contrary to the written law, 
 then tiie law directs that all Cazees and Mahomedans shall break down such illegal 
 custom, and to conduct themselves ui strict obedience to the blessed laws of the Koran. 
 The injunctions in this matter are po-itive and plain; vide pp. 17 and 117 of vol. 1 of 
 Sale's Koran, " Whoso judgeth not accortling to what God hath revealed, they are 
 infidels." 
 
 Under these circumstances, while thankfully acknowledging that not only your petitioners 
 but all the inhabitants of this Presidency are highly privileged in enjoying happiness and 
 comforts under the wise and benevolent rule of the British Government, and have no lawful 
 cause of complaint against their honourable rulers, vet your humble petitioners piay that 
 the circumstances set forth in this representation may meet with your gracious and wise 
 consideration; and they pray you to afford them relief from their threatened and suf- 
 ferino; distress, by the desertion in Her Majesty's Court of Justice of the strict law of 
 the Koran for alleged infidel customs, which cannot be for a moment compiired with the 
 written law. 
 
 Your petitioners pray that your Honourable House will be pleased to enact, that for the 
 future all disputed questions of inheritance, marriage, divorce, wills, gifts, &c., afi'ecting 
 any of the lour great orthodox Sunni sects of Malaki, Hanali, Shafai, and Hanbali, may 
 be decided by the written law as laid down in the Koran, and other authorities subordinate 
 to the blessed Koran, against the dicta of which no custom, however old or otherwise 
 proper, ought on any account to prevail. 
 
 For the consideration your Honourable House may be pleased to bestow to this repre- 
 sentation, your humble petitioners will, as in duty bound, ever pray for the prosperity, 
 happiness, and welfare of the British Government. 
 
 (signed) -S?. A. Citbhny, 
 
 Dated tiiis 19lh, November 185-2. ." K. Kanuilitddem, 
 
 Md. Ebrahim Jeetakur, 
 &.C. &c. Sic. 
 
 The Humble Petition of H/'iaik Ahmed Cuhbay, native Inhabitant of Bombay, and 
 Landholder in that Neighbourhood, 
 
 Showeth, 
 Thai your piiitioner is a member of the Bombay Association, a body recently organized 
 here, "with the view of ascertaining the want< of the people of this country, and the 
 measures <iilculated to advance their welfare, and of representing the same to the authori- 
 ties 111 India or in England." 
 
 That your petitioner has read the d-aft of a pclilioii proposed to be sent to your Honour- 
 able House by ceriain members of the said assoi iation, praying for certain changes in the 
 manner c. governing British India. That he cordially concurs in much of the same, hut 
 thinks it veiy defective as an exposition of the wants of the people of this country at the 
 present time. That, moved consequtnilv by a feeling of comjjassion for his sufi'ering 
 countrymen, your (xtitioner bfgs respectfully to request iln- attention of your Honourable 
 House to some proposals tthich he has already submitted to the public of Western India, 
 
 through
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEUUITORIES. 425 
 
 througli tlie columns of tlie " Dombay Gazette,"' and wliicli li.ivc met witli general Appmilix, .\o 7. 
 
 a|iproval. That your petitioner, writing 111 a foreign tonguo, craves fbigiveiiess for any 
 
 iiiaccurjicies in the style ot his English, which are not for want of respect to your Honour- 
 able House, but from his ignorance, which, however, he is sure the justice and generosity 
 of your Honourable House will not allow 10 operate to the prejudice of the poor people of 
 India. He therefore proceeds witli his proposals, as (bllovvs: 
 
 The Governor of Bombay should receive his salary, 10,000 sicca rupees per mensem, 
 
 without any extra allowance for travelling expenses, parties, or for any other purpo,-es. 
 The house at Pared and Malabar Poiut should be maintained ai the expense of the State, 
 but not Da|)ooiee. The Governor should remain at the Presidency, that being his post, 
 and should only be allowed to leave it the same as every othtr servant of the State, on 
 certiK<d ill-health, or two months in a year on |)rivale affairs. 
 
 The Commander-in-Chief should receive his salary of 5,000 rupees a month, and no more 
 on any account; no demand for travelling allowances should be allowed on his account; he 
 should have no seat in Council, and consequently have no allowance on that account. 
 
 Members of Council shouhl be abolished as useless, and a drag on the impoverished 
 finances of the countrv. 
 
 Hailevburv C^'ollege and the Military Seminary at Addiscombe should be abolished. Any 
 money expended in fitting civilians and officers for their posts should he spent in India, the 
 place from whence the money is drawn. 
 
 Appointments, civil, military, medical, and naval, should be sold at fixed rates ; the parties 
 to wlioin tliev are sold must be as qualified as they are at present. The proceeds should be 
 thrown into a fund for the improvement ot the resources of the countiy. 
 
 Natives of all castes and persuasions should be held qualified to hold any appointment 
 under the State for which tliey may be fit, without distinction of the covenanted and 
 uncovenanted. 
 
 Civil service in its present form should, therefore, be done away with. No man, merely 
 because he holds a covenant, should be allowed, when known to be incompetent, to stop in 
 the Government Si^rvice, much less to advance, simply because he is covenanted; and, in 
 any case, their salaries should be greatly reduced. 
 
 Roads and Tanks. — A fixed per-centage of the revenue of the country should be spent 
 yearly, say five per cent., upon the necessary improvements, which, in time, will return back 
 their first cost a hundred-fold ; this sum sliould be spent in excess of sums expended on 
 Govtrnment bnildi[igs, which do not improve the country. 
 
 Ecclesiastical Establishment. — Beyond the Christian ministers required for the soldiery, 
 and actually attached to the regiments, the finances of India should not be burthened to 
 niaintain the Christian (,'hurcli. It should be supported by the voluntary contributions of 
 its members, and, in like manner, the Government should stand aside from all the other 
 religions of the land, that is, as far as giants of money are concerned. 
 
 The Sudder Adawlut should be abolished, it being, as at |)resent constituted, a ateat hin- 
 drance to the attainment of justice. Its jurisdrction should be transferred to the Supreme 
 Court, and all the appeals from the Mofussil sliould be referred to the Supreme Court. At 
 present, from delay ot one kind and another, a case of appeal is seldom decided in less than 
 two to five years. 
 
 In the provincial adawluts there are at present a Mahomedan and a Hindoo law officer. 
 These appointments the Government intend to abolish upon tiieir vacation bv their present 
 incumbents. This should not be permitted, as Mahtimedans and Hindoos will not then be 
 able to have their suits decided by iheii own law. A Mahomedan and a Hindoo law officer 
 should be appointed t.) the Supreme Court, as is the case at Calcutta. The law suits of 
 Mahi.niedans and Hindoos should be derided according to their own law upon the point, 
 and not according to the usage of the city in which the case may be tried. 
 
 The lecovery of the laud revenue of the islands of Bombay and Colaba should be taken 
 from the revenue judge, and the deciding of the revenue cases should rest with the judges 
 of the Supreme Court, as in the zillahs when the zillali judges decide ; these latter to be 
 amenable to the Supreme Court m Bombay. 
 
 Pensions should be granted to the menial servants of the Government, instead of, as at 
 present, after they are worn out with age in the service of the Government, discharging 
 without any stipend, thus obliging them either to starve or beg. 
 
 All monopoly of salt by Government should be abolished, and the shameful tax levied 
 at present by Government on this necessary of life should be at once and for ever abolished, 
 and free trade allowed on eveiy article of necessary and daily consumption. 
 
 That your petitioner begs leave furiher respectfully to represent, that hlthert'i, when re- 
 duction- of esiablishments have been made, it has lieen cusiomnrv to cut all clerks and 
 peons and persons who cannot protect themselves 20 or 25 per cent., as the case ma v be ; hut 
 the pay of civilians and others, who could best afford to lose a poition of their emoluments, 
 
 0.10. 3H4 has
 
 426 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. has been invioLiblc. In future, when emergencies of the State require a reduction of esta- 
 
 blishments, it should commence vvitii the Governor, Commander-in-Chief members of 
 
 Council, and thence proceed downwards through the differtnt classes of public servants. 
 
 That your petitioner further begs leave respectfully to submit to your Honourable House 
 the following detached suggtstioiis on questions of general interest : 
 
 1. Cultivator's Sufferings. — There was a rule of the Poslivva's government, and also of the 
 British Government, by which, in the month of May or June, it was customary to makean 
 advance to the cultivators, called tagate, according to the quantity of ground cultivated by 
 eacii, to enable them to purchase bullocks, ploughs, &c. at reasonable rates, which tagaee 
 was repaid in the months of November and December, while the crops were ripe on the 
 o-round. This loan the Government has partially suspended, owing to the nealect of the 
 native otficials in not inakinii proclamation and calling the cultivators to receive tagaee; 
 and the cultivators sutler therefrom, and are obliged to ask loans from Banyans, Marwarees, 
 and other people. They charge them [ircmium, otherwise suwaec and deeree, which means 
 for each rupee a (piaiter or half a rupee for six months, instead of 18 reas interest, and by 
 such act the cultivators arc totally mined. tJoveinment should direct the advance of tagaee 
 as usual. By advanciiis; tagaee the Govenmient will be benefited; they will get nine per 
 cent, for their moiicv, and the cultivators will be saved from sustaining the impositions of 
 the Banyans, Sec. NVithont such advance, consequent on the poverty of the cultivators, 
 the country will be destroyed. 
 
 2. Slump Papers. — On the 1st day of June 1810, the Government introduced a regu- 
 lation, by which the use of stamp papers for each and every suit filed in the judicial courts 
 became necessary, as will appear on reference 10 the Regulations XVIIi. of a.d. 1827. By 
 establishing thisrate native British subjects have been entirely ruined. Previous to this Act 
 there was a rule to pr.y five per cent, on the amount under litigation, and no further expense 
 was necessary ; and now for each and every document and witness produced before the 
 court darkhast is required, by which, besides the costs of native pleaders, sometimes the 
 cost of carrying on a suit through any court is ai least one-fourth of the amount sued for. 
 Government, instead of exacting such cruel taxes from its subjects, and so ruining them, 
 should nourish them as a gardener nourishes the herbs and plants. Government should fix 
 a small fee upon each suit, the amount of the sum sued for determining the fee. 
 
 3. 6'«?>s.— In several courts under the Bombay Presidency there are judges, principal 
 sudder ameens, sudder anieens, and moonsifis, who receive handsome salaries, and nuine- 
 ricallv are quite sufficient to do all the work before the court in proper lime; but instead of 
 this, suits brought into the zillah courts are delayed from year to year, someiimes extending 
 to even four years. Parhament should direct that every suit be decided within two or three 
 months fiomthe date of its being filed in a court ; there is no dilhculty in such being done, 
 for all ihe proceedings are in the native language, and are well known to tiie parties. In 
 the tjupreme Court, the plea side, cases are alwajs decided within three months, that is, in 
 the term following their being filed, and this is done notwithstanding t!ie language used is 
 English, and English pleaders are employed therein. 
 
 In ihe Small Cause Court, just established, suits are decided within a fortnight of tiieir 
 being filed, and this notwithstanding the cases decided are ten times more numerous than 
 tho>c decided in zillah courts ; and in this court there are only three judges, while in zillah 
 courts there are more than a dozen officers, both Europeans and natives. 
 
 , 4. Sudder Adnwlut. — Any ajtpeais from the decision of a zillah judge must be made to 
 
 the Sudder Adawlut. Parties are obliged to purchase stamp papers of a considerable value 
 upon which to write their ap|)eals. An appeal fileil for admission goes before a snigle judge, 
 and to read this pititioii, and to decide whether the appeal sluill be admitted or not, takes 
 this sinsle iudiie ^ometimes, wiihout its btiiiii produced in lull court, six months, seldom 
 less, and sometime^ a year, or even ihne yciirs. Slinuld the appeal be admitted, the appel- 
 lant is very fortunate if be gets it decided in less th. in two years. Sometimes the parties 
 are wearied by having to wait five jears for the decision. Let Parliament, should it not 
 see fit to aboli>h this court, which is a bar to justice, which I recommend, and to have three 
 judges in Her Majesty's Supreme Court instead, direct that all appeals to it should be 
 decided within six months. Appeals sent to England from tnc Supreme Court are there 
 decided in six months, notwiihsianding all the obstacles there are in the way to speedy 
 decision. 
 
 5. Muhomcdan or Hindoo Famili/ Disputes. — In cases of family disputes in Mahomed, ■:» 
 or Hindoo fmiilies, arising from evil and ihsit^ning persons enticing away a wife or daughter 
 tor tlioviltsL piirijoses, v\ here such is brought Ik loie a niugistrati', tiie niagistiate decides 
 according to tlie Juiglisli hiw, and if the wife or daughter docs not live with liei husb:uid or 
 piiniit, she is ai libirty to go wheie she pleases. 'Ibis is quite contiary to Malioiiied;m ir 
 HiiidcH) law, and the usage of the country, whicli recpiires thai a husband who ili-ticats his 
 wife >hould be tluly punished, and bound by security to keep the peace towards her ; and 
 instead of her being told to go where she ]deases, she should lie oirccied to go with her 
 liiislj;ind before the cazce of the Mahoniedaiis, or the museadum of the Hindoo caste, and 
 uet reconciled. ShouUl the decision <if sach eases by iMahe.medan er Hindoo law be ordered 
 by the m.-w Charter, many families v\ill have cause to bless the British Government. 
 
 <(. ilrt'ims. — Lands granted in cnain by the fMiner Governments should be held sacred tc> 
 the tannlic>> descmding from the persons to whom they were oiiginally gianted,and not be 
 taken back by the present Government, without thcic is failure of direct issue. At pie^ent 
 
 a iireat
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 427 
 
 a grerit number of poor people have been deprived of enams granted to their ancestors for Appendix, No. 7, 
 
 various reasons, whereby mucii distress has been occasioned to classes tiiat cannot make 
 
 their srievances known to others than the local antlioritie<. Tenure of enams from the 
 time of the Peshwa's government, or other former governments, should be held to <^ive the 
 holder a perfect right to the enam. 
 
 7. Taxes. — New tnxes should not bt- laid upon the people, as at present, wiihout their 
 being at all consulted in tlie matter, but some provision should be made by Parliament that 
 no new tax should be levied without tiiC heads of the villages or towns att'ected bein^ con- 
 sulted as to the propriety of tlitir being levied, and even then they snould not be iujposed 
 without the sanction of the Imperial Legislature. 
 
 That your petitioner prays the earnest attention of your Honourable House to these views, 
 conceived, as will be seen, in a spirit of benevolent regard for the welfare of the people of 
 Hindoosinn, and that the same may pass into law with the sanction of your Honourable 
 House, for which millions, as well as your petitioner, will be grateful. 
 
 And your petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. 
 
 Bombay, 1st November 1852. S. A. Cuhbay. 
 
 The Humble Petition of Warren Hastings Leslie Frith, Colonel in the Bengal Artillery, in 
 
 the service of liie East India Company, 
 Showeth, 
 
 That your petitioner is the only son and sole personal representative of Lieutenant-colonel 
 Robeit Frith, deceased, formerly of the Bengal cavalry, in the service of the East India 
 Company, and who was in the years 1782, 1783, and 1784 aid-de-camp to the late 
 Warren Hastings, Esq., Governor-general of India. 
 
 That by a treaty between the Governor-general and the Nabob Vizier of Ouiie, Asoph- 
 ul-l)ovvlah, known as the treaty of Chunali, in 1781, it was agreed that the fortress of 
 Futty Ghur, in the kingdom of Oude, then held by the Company's troops, should be 
 evacuated and delivered up to the Vizier to be occupied by his own troops, but it was 
 stipulated that the troops should be under the command of a British officer appointed by 
 the East India Company. 
 
 That your petitioner's father was the British officer selected and appointed to lake the 
 command of the said troops, and he accordingly assumed their command, the troops con- 
 sisting of five battalions of sepnys, « ith eight field pieces, 8ic. ; that he was to receive 
 from the Nabob, in lieu of pay, table money, and all other emoluments, 5,000 rupees per 
 monih, his pay from the Company being in the mean time suspended. 
 
 That part of the troops were ordered to march to Fuity Ghnr, and the rt mainder detached 
 into the Mofussel, 10 assist in realising the revenue : and that when the troops were about 
 to move, the money necessary for their pay and subsistence not being supplied, application 
 for means was made to the Nabob's minister, Hyder Beg Kfian, who declared his inability 
 to furnish the money, as all the resources of the country were required to niiike up a crore 
 and five lacs of rupees, the arrears of a subsidy due to the East India Company, the 
 Governor-general having peremptorily required immediate payment, and the money being 
 pledged by the minister for such payment. 
 
 That the minister, Hyder Beg Khan, strongly urging Colonel Frith to raise money for thp 
 supply of the troops on his own, Colonel Frith's, credit and responsibility, promising that 
 the loan shruild be repaid as soon as the above pressing demands on the revenue should 
 have been discharged. Colonel Frith determined to raise the necessary money, in which 
 he ultimately succeeded ; and with the approbation of Major Palmer, the Resident at 
 Lucknow, he advanced 40,000 rupees for the pay and subsistence of the troops, and they 
 then moved to Fuity Ghur. 
 
 That if such advance of 40,000 rupees had not been so raised by Colonel Frith for the 
 pay and maintenance of the Sepoy troops under his command, the troops must have beei> 
 disbanded, to the heavy pecuniary loss of the Company, as the collection of the Nabob's 
 revenue could not have been effected, and the subsidy due to the Company would not 
 therefore have been paid. 
 
 That in a few months after the departure of the Governor-general, Warren Hastings, to 
 England, Sir John M'Pherson, the acting Governor-general, ordered the brigade ol the 
 Compfuiv's troops, who had before occupied Futty Ghur, back to that station, and, in con- 
 sequence, the Vizier's troops, under Colonel Frith, were recalled, for the purpose of being 
 disbanded ; but the embarrassments of the Nabob's minister still continuing, I.e was unable to 
 furnish the money for the |«aynient of the disbanded corps, and Colonel Friih was again 
 obliged to raise, on his own credit, a further sum of money; which loan was accordingly 
 effected, and applied in jjaynient of the troops. 
 
 That Major Palmer, the Resident of the East India Company, and representative of the 
 British Government at Lucknovv, resigned his office in July or August 1785, having rt fused 
 to sanction the recall by Sir John M'Pherson of the troops from Futty Ghur, contrary 10 
 the treaty made by Governor-general Hastings; and, in making up his accounts ot his 
 
 0.10. 3 I office
 
 428 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appenfli 
 
 • • T X, No. 7. office as iisident, it appeared therein that there was a balance due to Colonel Frith tor 
 
 advances made by him, which iiad been applied for the payment and subsistence of the 
 
 trocips, and also, tor his ])av and allowances of two lacs and 70,000 rupees, for which a 
 bond, bearing intercut at 1*2 per cent., was made out, under the seals of the Nabob and his 
 minister, in favour of Colonel Frith, and was delivered to him officially by Major Palmer, 
 the resident. 
 
 That Colonel Frith continued in the Nabob's seivice until July or August 17tt(>, whin he 
 was recalled and ordered to rejoin his corps. At tiiat period anotlicr year's allov\ance had 
 become due, but, owing to the pecuniary difficulties that stdl existed, no pnrt of the bond 
 or allowance was paid until the year 17S9, when Colonel Frith received certain turkhors or 
 assignments on the Nabob of Turrackabad, for one lac of rupees, in part )5aynient of the 
 bond, and which sum was paid by three annual instalments, in the years 1789, 1790, and 
 1791. 
 
 That Colonel Frith was, in the year 1700, oidered with his corps (first regiment cavalry) 
 round to the coast, whence they returned to their ^tation in 1792. Thai during this service 
 his health w;is greatly impaired, and he coniiimed gradually to decline until his death in 
 1800, and when he was unpaid any further part of the debt due lohini. 
 
 That in the year 1797 the Vizier, Asoph-ul-Dowlah died, and his reputed son, Vizier Alii 
 Khan w;is placed on the throne by the then Governor-general; but the new Nabob, being 
 considered unfriendly to the British interest in India, was afterwards displaced by the East 
 India Company, on account of his alleged spurious birth ; and the Nabob, Saadut Alii Khaij, 
 the brother of Aso|ih-al-DowUili, was raised to the throne, and a treaty was executed con- 
 tainino- a provision, *' That the just debts of the Vizier, Asoph-ul-Dowlah, shall be discharged 
 by the Nabob Saadut Alii Khan, and that an arrangement for that purpose shall take place 
 within twelve months after the elevation of the said Nabob, Saadut AUi Khan to the 
 musnud, so that the whole shall be liquidated in three years after that date." U|ioii the 
 faith of this treaty, Saadut Alii Khan obtained and accepted the sovereignty; but ia 
 further ariangemeius between the new Nabob and the Cumpanv, a further treatv was 
 executed on the Slstday of July 1798, wherein tlie preceding article was wholly omitted, 
 and no provision was made for payment of the then outstanding debts of the deceased 
 Vizier, for the reason, as was a terwards stated hy the Maiquis of Wellesley, ihat the 
 demands of the Company " precluded the possibility of preferring matters, however 
 wei'ihty in the scale of justice, of inferior consideration in a political and national point i)f 
 view." 
 
 That on the lOtli of November 1801, a treaty was concluded between the East India 
 Company and the Nawaub Vizier Saadut Alii Kahn "for ceding to the Company, in 
 perpetual sovereignty, certain portions of his Excellency's territorial possessions, in com- 
 mutation of the subsidy thm payable to the Company by the Vizier." 
 
 That your petitioner has made repeated endeavours to obtain r. dress from the East 
 India Company by memorials to the Government of India, to tlie East India Company, 
 and the Board of Control, and that your petitioner has been unsuccessl'ui in all his 
 appeals to the justice of the Directors. 
 
 That your petitiiner is advised that he has no legal claim on the East India Com- 
 pany, though his claim on the Directors rests on unquestionable moral grounds. 
 
 That there are precedents of redress of similar acts of injustice to civil and military 
 servants of the Company being afforded by the British Legislature, and that especially 
 in 1832 (afier a Select Committee of Inquiry) a public Act of Parliament (star. 4 Uill. 4, 
 c. 112), directed a n imbursement of Captain James Arthur Murray by the East India 
 Company under circumstances analogous to the case of your [.etitiumr. 
 
 That your petitioner respectfully submits the following reas<ins for granting to your 
 petitioner a Select Committee of Inquiry: — 
 
 Fiist. Because the money was advanced with the sanction of the representative of the 
 Bengal Government for the public service of Oude, under circmnstances which romlered 
 it .subservient t:» the jjolicy and interest of the East India Company. 
 
 Second. Because, prior to such advance, the Bengal Goveinmeiu had sanctioned the 
 principle of interference, and had interfered for the payment of similar advancts. 
 
 Third. Be(aiise(in the language of Sir Philip Frsu' is), "since the East India Com- 
 pany have taken the govemnnni of the country in effect from the Nabob, an aiten.pi to 
 shift the debt per.sonally upon him would be the same thing as not paying it at all." 
 
 Fourth. Because the East India Company, by taking from the Nabob the greater part 
 of his territory liable to the debt, iiare deprived him of the means of payment. 
 
 Fifth. Because the East India Company, by expunginij- fiom the treaty made on the 
 accession ol a succeeding Nabob, the clause which obliged him to pay the debt ol his pre- 
 decessi r, virtually, and, as the Nabol) pleads, absolutely, absolved him from liability to 
 payment. 
 
 Sixth. Because, by reason of the sovereignty of the East India Company, the petitioner 
 cannot have relief in a court of ordinary jurisdiction. 
 
 Seventh. Lastly, because, without the credit i.nil advance of Colonel Frith, the Nabob's 
 troops must have been disbanded and his revenue uncollected; and therefore that such 
 advances liy Colonel I'Vith in fact secured ihe payment of the subsidy to the East India 
 Conipany then due by the Nabob, and which otherwise would not have been paid. 
 
 That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 429 
 
 Tliat under these circumstances, and for the above reasons, and as all appeals to the Appendix,. Na.J 
 
 justice ot ihu East India Company have faded, your petitioner respectfully applies to your 
 
 Honourable House for relief as his only remaining means of redress. 
 
 Your petitioner therefore lunnhly ))rays that, as your Honourable House is now about to 
 legislate for the future government of India, it may please your Honourable House to 
 appoint a tribunal by which the claim of your petitioner, and any other clauus of a similar 
 nature, may be investigated and cleterniined. 
 
 And your petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray. 
 
 ^ ■ W.H.L. Frith, 
 
 London, 12 February 1853. Colonel Bengal Artillery. 
 
 To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland iu 
 
 Parliament assembled. 
 
 The humble Petition of John Sullivan, 
 Showetli, 
 
 That your petitioner is a member of the Easi India Company. 
 
 That that Company has proclaimed its intention of annexing 10 the British dominions 
 in India the territorifs of all native princes who may die witliout natural heirs. 
 
 That it has already acted upon this resolution in three instances ; and is, as your peti- 
 tioner is informed, about to act upon it in a fourth. 
 
 That such confiscaiion is a gross violation of the inherent rights of those princes, and of 
 our treaties with them. 
 
 That it is calculated, as your petitioner believes, to alienate the affections of all classes of 
 the people of India from British rule, and to undermine Briiish power in that country. 
 
 That your petitioner therefore prays your Honourable House to refer these allegations 
 for inquiry to the Select Committee of your Honourable House, which is now employed in 
 investigating the affairs of India, and to report upon the same for the information of your 
 Honourable House. 
 
 And your petitioner will ever pray. 
 
 J. Sullivan. 
 
 The Humble Petition of the Hindoo Inhabitants of Bengal, Behar and Orissa, for 
 themselves, and the other Hmdoo Inhabitants of the said Provinces, 
 
 Humbly showeth, 
 That your petitioners and their Hindoo fellow countrymen of the abovementioned pro- 
 vinces are greatly aagrieved in the enjoymeni of their ancient laws and customs, in regard 
 as well to rights of inheritance and property as to religion, by an Act of Lefjislative Council 
 of India, being Act No. 21 of 1850, entitled, " An Act lor extending the Principle of Sec- 
 tion 19, Regulation 7, of 1832, of the Bengal Code, throughout the provinces of tlie East 
 India Company," a copy of which Act they annex to this their humble petition ; and, having 
 by petition and memorial, and every means in their power, first endeavoured to prevent the 
 passing of tilt; said Act, and subsequently to procure its disallowance by the honourable 
 the Court of Directors, but without success, your petitioners earnestly appeal to your 
 honourable House ajiainst the said Act for such relief and ledress as it may be in the power 
 of your Honourable House to give, and as the circumstances of the case may appear tO 
 require. 
 
 2. Thai from the title and preamble of the said Act, it might be supposed that the Act 
 is a mere local extension to the other territories of the East India Company, of a regulation 
 which was established in the year 1832 lor Bengal ; but such is not the case, as your peti- 
 tioners will presently show. 
 
 3. That your petitioners are advised and believe that the intention of the said regulation 
 was merely to piotect from loss or forfeiture of property persons who should concientiously 
 change their religion, and especially such natives of India as should embrace the Christ- 
 ian religion. But the said Act, besides having this object, to which liiey object, for the 
 reasons hereinafter given, extends to other objects not contemplated, as your petitioners 
 believe, by the authors of the said regulation. 
 
 4. Your petitioners tiiink it may be necessary to premise, for the information of your 
 honourable House, that all property of Hindoos, according to Hindoo law, descends in case 
 of intestacy from the ancestor to the heirs, subject to the condition that these shall, on the 
 death of the former, make the necessary Inncral oblations, and perform during their lives 
 the pel lodieal rites and ceremonies enjoined by Hindoo law and leligioii f or the deceased 
 line of ancestors ; and the Hiiuloo's confidence 111 meeting death and hope of a happy state 
 alter this life depend on his assurance that tliis coudiiion will be religiously and laithlully 
 performed. And by a just logical consequence the Hindoo law confines the right of 
 inheritance to such persons as are willing and able to perform, or join in performing the 
 said condition. 
 
 0.10. 3 I 2 5, That
 
 430 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 5. Tliat by Hindoo law tliere are many other rights, and not merely relating to property, 
 but also to other enjoyments, the possession and continuance of which depend on the per- 
 formance of conditions derived from morality and religion; and in this pervasive connexion 
 between private right, and religious and moral obligation, consist the vitality and strength 
 of the Hindoo social organisation. It is the common bond by which society has been 
 preserved from dissolution during several periods of war, anarchy, and convulsion, and is 
 preserved in the present day under British rule. 
 
 G. Tiiat the said Act strikes at the foundation of this system of property and obligation, 
 and tliat vour petitioners earnestly implore the attention of your honourable House to a 
 brief analysis of the said Act, which they offer with a view to demonstrate its extensive 
 operation. On an analysis it appears that it deals with certain persons and certain rights. 
 The persons in the words of the Act are ; 1. Persons renouncing the communion of any 
 relitrjon. 2. Persons excluded from the communion of any religion. 3. Persons deprived 
 of caste. And in favour of these three descriptions of persons the Hindoo law is to the 
 followinu- extent repealed ; viz. tliat ii shall cease to inflict on them any forfeiture (1) of 
 rights ; (2) of propertv ; and (3) that it shall cease in any way to impair or affect any rights 
 of inheritance. Your petitioners are advised and believe, that these words, " rights" 
 " property,'' .-incl " rights ofinheritance," tiiough jurisprudentially ill selected and illogically 
 arranged,'comprise the whole body of civil and religious lights with which Hindoo law in 
 any way deals in the case ot the previously specified persons ; and that the said designations 
 of those persons comprise the whole body ot persons whom Hindoo law regards as offenders 
 in any way against Hindoo morality, law, or religion. It is hardly necessary for your peti- 
 tioners to i)oint out the yreat diffeience between these three classes of persons: in the first 
 class the Christian convert may be reckoned, as he is a person renouncing the comnuinion 
 of the Hintloo leliaion ; but persons who are excluded for other reasons besides that of 
 embracing another religion, and still more, persons who may by Hindoo law be deprived of 
 caste, include persons guilty of all shades, from the faintest to the deepest, of immorality 
 and crime. On this plain analysis, therefore, your petitioners humbly and confidently say, 
 that by the said Act every barrier which religion and law and custom have raised in the 
 interests of Hindoo society is weakened, or broken down. 
 
 7. Your petitioners trust that they may, without abandoning their broad and general 
 objections to the said Act, submit an illustration of the manner in which it may he made to 
 operate on Hindoo social and family relations. A Hindoo widow is entiiltd by Hindoo law 
 to maintenance out of her husband's or father-in-law's estate, and residence in the family 
 house if iher* be one ; ai d if she has had an only son who has died childless she would be 
 entitled to the inheritance, in the place of her son, of a third part ; for example, if the estaie 
 was the joint estate of three brothers, her husband having been one, and if living as a joint 
 family at the time of his death, she would l)e entitled to residence in the family mansion. 
 According to Hindoo law she would be liable to be deprived of caste hy many kinds of 
 immoiality, say, for example, prostitution, if on being called to repentance and penance she 
 persisteu in them ; and as a consequence of beinu; deprived of caste, she would lose the said 
 right to maintenance and right of inheritance. But by the said Act these rights are pre- 
 served to her ncjtwithstanding. If her husband's brother were to sue for a |;artition, 
 thereby recognising the ri<;hi given to her by the Act, she would still remain in the family 
 mansion in juxtaposition with the virtuous matrons of the family and their children and 
 grandchildren, in apartments allotted to her under the partition, and by the Act made 
 inalienably her own. One more illustration. A religious Hindoo, having an only son, 
 looks to that son as his assurance that those lelisious rites will be duly performed on which 
 he believes his salvation and that of his immediate ancestors to depend. Il tlie son becomes 
 a Chiistian, or from any other cause is deprived of caste, the father is entitled by Hindoo 
 law to adopt iinother son, who would liy the same law take the inheritance. The Act in 
 question, by severing the inherit nice from the adoption, and securing it to the original son, 
 virtually and practically annuls the Hindoo right of adoption. 
 
 8. That it would he iinpossihle for vour petitioners adequately to describe ilie manner 
 in which ihe said Act may operate on Hindoo social relations; but the above illustrations 
 are selected from a great vanetv which uii^ht he iiiven, and they show, as your petitioners 
 submit, that the said Act is of a tendencv subversive of the interests of morality and 
 religion. 
 
 !). That in the opinion of your petitioners, the said Act involves a breach of faith on the 
 part of the Goverrnneiit towards the Hindoo nation, a persistence in which will affect the 
 honour and glory of the 15riti>h Crown. The first acquisitions ol the British in India 
 having l.cen made bv or in the name of the East India Company, vour petitioners can only 
 appeal to the acts and declarations of that body in siippoil >•( the .ihove ]iroiiosiiion ; 
 and these acts and declarations liave nnif irmly held out to the Hindoos the promise of 
 of the tstablishment of Hindoo law for Hindoos, and of their being made secuie in the 
 enjoyment of their ancient usasi s and religion. By such declarations and promises the 
 British Goveinmeiit has gaint.-d the confidence and allegiance of the lliii<loo people, and 
 that the said Act is inconsistent witli them. That such was the early policy uf the East 
 India Company, is attested by every lespi ctal)le hisiorinn. That ilir administration or 
 practice of the Government was in accordance with this its professed policy may be proved 
 by authentic traditions, and is in the recollections of men still surviving a now bygone 
 generation, and is besides strongly evidenced bv the missionary literature of tlie present 
 <lay, which is constantly endeavouring to biing obloquy on the officers cf Government of 
 former days lor having res])ected the religion, laws, and usages of the people; and your 
 
 |)etitioncrs
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 431 
 
 petitioners beg to add that, although ilie policy alluded to preceded all legislation, and was Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 ions; maintained independently of legislation, and had a much wider sc:op(f than any le<'is- 
 
 lation on the subject, it is in fact supported by li'gislalion. In Bengal, in ]7!»:J,"and in 
 Madras in 1802, regulations of Government were passed by which the Hindoo laws were 
 established here, as the laws to be followed in all suits regarding succession, inheritance, 
 marriage, and caste with regard to Hindoos, and the saine in 1781, was intended bv Parha 
 ment to be made the law of the Supreme Comt for the natives (jf the presidency towns. 
 Referring, therefore, lo this long arid uniform course ot policy, administration and legisla- 
 tion, your petitioners fee! warranted in considering the said Act as a violation of their esta- 
 blished rights as a people, wliose virtually distinct nationality hiis been recognised by the 
 British Crown, contrary to the good faith which the British Crown will maintain. 
 
 10. Tliat your petitioners are also advised that the said Act is beyond the power and 
 competence of the Legislative Council, but that, inasmuch as its legality cannot be disputed 
 in the courts of the Last India Company, your petitioners are remediless except by the aid 
 of Parliament. 
 
 11. That your petitioners, having compared the said Act with tlie roLiulation of wliicli it 
 professes to be an extension, beg your Honourable House also to compure it with the measure 
 originally proposed prior to the said Act, by the Indian Law Commission, and sanctioned 
 by the Government. And for the purpose of enabling your honourable House to form a 
 comparative judgment, your petitioners beg to premise a brief narration. In 184.J an Act 
 was proposed by the Indian Law Commission, and publislud in draft by the Indian Go- 
 vernmeni, lor tlie purpose of establishing a subsianiive law of the place under the name of 
 the Lex Loci, for ilie numeions classes in India being neither Hindoos nor Mahomediins, 
 respecting whom it was doubtliil what kind of law applied to them. By the provisions of 
 the proposed Act, as your petitioners are advised, converts from the native to the Cliristian 
 relioion would have been placed under the Lex Loci, and by three sections a (copy of which 
 IS annexed to this petition) provisions were alleged to be niJide on the principle of the 
 regulation of 1832 for persons who should renounce or be excluded from the communion of 
 any religion, meaning, as your petitioners undeistood, natives who should become- Christians. 
 In the various petitions and remonstrances of the Hindoo community against the measures 
 alluded to, the Secretary of Government finally replied by the following paragraph in a 
 public and official letter, par. 35. " It is the inieniion of Goveinnieni for tlie more conve- 
 nient arrangement of the new law to remove the other sections from ihe Lex Loci Aci, and 
 place them in a separate Act." The Hindoo community thereupon expected that the 
 obnoxious law would be passed, but passed as proposed, and substantially in its integrity. 
 The separate Act alluded to is Act 21 of 1850, but it is not composed of the said three 
 sections, and is not substantially the same measure, but on the contrary, it is in some 
 respects new, and it more extensively outrages the feelings of the Hindoo people ; and more- 
 over, your petitioners would particularly point out to your Honourable House, ihat of the 
 three proposed sections one was restrictive, and to the efTect that the new law siiould not be 
 specifically enforced when it would be likely to outrage the religious feelings of anv party 
 against whom the courts of justice might be called on to apply it. The Act 21 of 1850 
 contains no such restrictions, nor even the qualification contained in the regulation of 1832, 
 by which it was provided that that measure should be carried out in conformity with 
 " justice, equity, and good conscience." And in considering this statement your honourable 
 House will not fail to remark this importaiii fact, that the much milder measure originally 
 proposed was, in the opinion of the Indian Law Commission, adapted (as in fact it did) to 
 outrage the feelings of the Hindoos, and was not a fit law to be passed without checks and 
 restrictions. 
 
 12. That your present petitioners are the inhabitants of three different provinces, and by 
 leason of some local diflfereiices befween the Hindoo law of Bengal from that of Behar and 
 Orissa, they are not all necessarily affected by the said Act in the same manner. In Bengal, 
 but not in Behar or Orissa, lior generally in the rest of India, the Hindoos rnay legally 
 make a will of the whole of their property, and thereby they have the power of securing it 
 to those who will respect its consecrated uses and the trusts to which it is subject for the 
 benefit of ancestors ; but all your petitioners alike regard the Act in its entirety as subversive 
 of Hindoo society. 
 
 13. That the objection of your petitioners being to the general operation of the said Act, 
 your petitioners are disinclined to urge objections merely to its details, but tliey are struck 
 with its great want of equity. The rights or supposed rights of its favoured classes have 
 been abstractedly considered, and no regard has been paid to the elecmosynarv and bene- 
 ficiary interests wiiich are recognised by all Hindoo families in the actual use and enjoyment 
 of proptrty. Such interests ought to be specially provided for in any new distribution of 
 property. Your petitioners also beg incidentally to note that, as Hindoo law will cease to 
 a great extent to apply to the classes provided fur by the said Act, a new body of laws is 
 required for the said classes, but is not provided by the said Act, and the omission may 
 become extensively Inconvenient to the Hindoo community. 
 
 14. That your petitioners do not I'eel called upon to defend their ancient laws and reli'-'ion : 
 tliey are of great antiquity, they have been for ages the inheritance and possession of a 
 hundred millions of people, and are so to the present day, and generally they remain in 
 perfect harmony with the faith and feelings of the people. Your petitioners, therefore, con- 
 fidently submit that these laws ought not to be altered or superseded in any one article, 
 except at the imperative call of humanity, justice, and reason united : and your petitioners 
 beg most respectfully and earnestly to add that no such grounds exist for the said Act, and 
 
 o.io. 3 I 3 that
 
 432 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Ai)L>cndix No. -. that your petitioners regard the snid Act as merely an encouragement to the spirit of rehgious 
 
 ' '_ ' '' prcselylism, but at the same time going much beyond that object. Your petitioners are not 
 
 insensible to the peculiar case of such of their countrymen, especially the young and inexpe- 
 rienced, ai have been gained over to professing to be Christians. But your petitioners 
 .submit, their becoming Christians does not entitle them to the benefit of special legislation. 
 Their desertion of thereligion of their country opens to many of them a career of fonune in 
 which their brother Hindoos cannot follow them, and no converts froin the faith of a nation 
 were ever so favourably circumstanced as are Hindoo Christians. 
 
 15. In conclusion, your petitioners humbly pray your Honourable House to t ike this their 
 petition into your most serious consideration, and to take such measures as to your Honourable 
 House may appear expedient to procure the repeal or annulment of the said Act of the 
 Legislative Council of India, and said reguhition of the Bengal Government, and as also 
 may be necessary to pieserve to the Hindoo nation the enjoyment of their ancient religion 
 and customs. 
 
 And your petitioners shall ever pray. 
 
 Raja Rudhahant liahadwr 
 Raja Kalikrishiia Bahadur. 
 Cossinauth Mullick. 
 dfc. Sfc. Src. 
 
 The humble Petition of the undersigned retired Servants of the Honourable East India 
 
 Company, Merchants, and others; 
 
 Showeth, 
 
 That vour petitioners are severally holders of promissory notes of the East India Com- 
 pany, oranted from time to time by succesive Governments of India on occasion of raising 
 money on loan for its service. 
 
 That vour petitioners liave fi>r the most part become possessed of such Government pro- ■ 
 missory notes during the course of a long residence in India; and, while such residence has 
 made your petitioners practically acquainted with its affairs, and has given them a deep 
 interest therein, your petitioners show that the fact that they are creditors to a large amount, 
 of the Government of India, necessarily gives them a gi\at stake in its financial properity, and 
 in its general well-being. 
 
 That juuch the greater part of the proprietors of East India stock have never resided in 
 India, and are therefore for the most part less acquainted with Indian affairs than your 
 petitioners, and, inasmuch as by the last Charter Act the dividends on East India stock are 
 mad';' the first charge on the revenues of India, the proprietors of such stock have, by reason 
 thereof, only a nominal interest in its government. 
 
 That, it it be the wisdom of Parliament to commit the government of India to a body 
 (more or less numerous) having the same or similar functions to those of the present Court 
 of Directors of the East India Company, it is expedient that such body should be chosen 
 by a constituency more extended in its character than ihe present proprietors of stock of the 
 East India Company, and havinsj; a real instead of a nominal stake in the welfare of India, 
 and especially by a constituency more qualified than the present to judge of the qualifications 
 of the candidates. 
 
 That your petitioners further believe that the granting to the holders of promissory notes 
 of the Government of India the right of voting in the ch<)ice of Directors, will improve the 
 value of the securities of the Indian Government, and will enable it to borrow money at a 
 more easy rate. 
 
 Yonr petitioners therefore humbly pray vour Honourable House, that should it be deemed 
 expedient in any future arrangements to be made for the government of India, that such 
 government should he vested wholly or partially in a body constiinteil like the present 
 Court of Directors of the Ivast India Company, the riglit ol choosing the persons to compose 
 such body may be granted, in such manner as to the wisdom of Parliament may seem fit, 
 amongst others, to the holders resident in this country of the promissory notes or securities 
 of the Government of India. 
 
 Jo/m Morgan, Col., c. b. , Madras Establishment, 
 
 J. A. Arbulhiiot. 
 
 Henry Harper, late Archdeacon of Madras, 
 
 &C. &C. &.C. 
 
 Tlie Petition of the undersigned Proprietors of East India Stock, and other Persons, British 
 Subjects, interested in the welfare and good Government of India; 
 
 Showeth, 
 TnAT from the year 1705 to the year 1792 the limits of the British territory in India 
 I'cmaiiU'd almost stationary ; that in the year 170;{ the revenues of British India amounted 
 to 8,270,771)/., the charges ()03,3!).i/., so that the territory then yielded a surplus revenue of 
 2,20!),«4<i /., whilst the territorial debt amounted to 7,129,034/. 
 
 That between the years 1793 and 1813, large additions were made to that territory. 
 
 That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 433 
 
 That in llie latter year (181:1) the gross revenues of India ainoiintid lo 1(5,704,700^, the AnnpiiJix \> 7 
 
 charges to l<>,8yi),362/., shovvmn an excess of cliaigC'S over leveniu! of l:i4,.i()->l. ; that the _1 
 
 debt ill tiiis period o( 20 yeais luid increased from 7,129,934/. to 20^970,780 /., or to nearly 
 ibiir times its original amount. 
 
 That the Comn)ittee of the House of Cominons on Indian Affairs, which sat in 1832 
 renorted to your Honourable House, that up lo that period tlie gross cliarges of the liuiiaii 
 territory had atigmenied in a greaier pro])()rtioii than the receipts. 
 
 Thiit in the year 18.33, twenty years after 1B13, the revenues amounted to 13,680,105/., the 
 charges to 13,030,7(!7/., showinii a surplus of revenue of 49,398/., but which surplus was 
 partly derived from the sale of tiie Coin|)any*s comiuercial asseis in India. 
 
 That on the 1st April 1834, the debt amounted lo 29,832,299/. 
 
 That (in the 1st April 1849, fifteen years after, u hen the whole of Hindosian had been 
 brought uiiflcr oui sway, the iv venues of India amounted to 18,227,350 /., the charges to 
 19,700,4()o/., .•^Iiowinu an excess of charges over revenue of 1,473,115/., while t\u- debt had 
 swcdlen to 48,124,119/. 
 
 That from the year 1839-40 to 1849-50, the total charges of India were 133,309,206/., 
 the total receipts 108,622,144/., showing an e.xcess of charges over receipts during these 
 10 yeais of 14,747,002/. 
 
 That in 1839 the debt of India amounted to 32,269,178/.; in 1849, at the end of the next 
 10 years, it amounted 10 48,124,119/., and that the debt has since increased, aiiil is at tiiis 
 moment increasing. 
 
 That the revenues of India amounted in 1839 to 1 4,-549,262/., in 1849 to 18,227,350/., 
 showing that in ihis decennial period the del)t has increased several times as fast as the 
 revenue. 
 
 That this increase of revenue, moreover, aiises mainly Irom a source over which the 
 Bi itish Government has no cnntrnl, viz., from sales of inonopoly opium. That as the receipts 
 from tliis source were diminished by one-half upon the breaking out of the last Chinese 
 war, the same, or more aggravated r( suits may l)f produced whenever the Chinese Govern- 
 ment may choose to legalise the cultivation of the drug in China, or whenever oilier nations, 
 such as the United States, attracted by its monopoly price in tliai em|iire, and now pos- 
 sessing boundless land in the Pacific adapted l>y natural fertility and a coiK'enial ciimate 
 to the growth of ihe poppy, shall turn tlieir eiieigy and attention to the supplanting of the 
 Company's opium in Chin;i, as succe-sfiilly as they have supplanted the Comp.iny's cotton 
 in England. 
 
 That your petitioners entenain a strong conviction that it would be impossible, at the 
 present moment, to supply a deficiency in the opium revenue from any other source m India ; 
 that the solvency of India, therefore, now depends, and has for miiny years depended, upon 
 the stability of that inono|ioly. 
 
 That up to the year 1834, the profits arising from the Company's exclusive trade were 
 applied in aid of the Indian trea>ury ; that from that date all the home expenses, including 
 the interest upon the home debt and the dividends paid to the proprietors of India stock, 
 have been charged upon the territorial revenues of India. 
 
 That the confident predictions which had at all previous times been expressed, and which 
 were again expressed by the minister o! India in 1832, of the competence of the revenues to 
 bear all these additional charges, have not been realised ; that, on the conlrarv, every 
 increase of territoiy has been followed by a greater increase of debt, making it manifest, 
 that if England possessed the whole world on the same terms, and f.dlowed by the same 
 results as she possesses in India, her condition would be one ot irretrievable ruin. 
 
 That such results prove that India, regarded as a national acquisition, that is 10 sav, as an 
 acquisition made by British blootl and British resources, and consequently as one in which 
 every subject of the empire possesses a common right, and is entitled to claim an equal 
 interest, was of far less real financial value in the year 1849 than it possessed in the veur 
 1793, fifty-six years ago ; for, whereas the surplus revenue of 1793 amounted to 2,209,840/., 
 and would at the same rate have amounted, in the 56 vears which have elapsed, to the sum 
 of 110,217,010/., after pa\inii off" the then existing debt of 7,129,934/., and exclusive 
 of any accuintilaiing interest during the p-tiod, tiio ai tu d delit of India is shown to !iavc 
 auiounied in 1849 to 48,124,119/., thusmakmg the lotal national loss, exclusive of interest, 
 incurred in the course of liaii a century, no less a sum than 164,341,729 of pounds 
 sterling. 
 
 That this sum, if it had accumulated at interest of live per cent, during 50 years, 
 would have amounted to the sum of 025,".i90,172 /., a sum which would more than have 
 sufficed to piy off three-foil I ths (.f the national debt of England, without the acquisition of 
 another foot of teiritory in India, or the imposition of an additional rupee of taxes on the 
 people of India. 
 
 That the financial state of India is, therefore, in the opinion of your petitioners, such as 
 to require a searching inquiiy into ail the departments of Government, both at home and 
 abre,ad, in order titat these may be placed upon a footing of the strictest economy consistent 
 with efficiency ; and in order that it may be determined, by the lighi now afforded by nearly 
 a century of experience, whethi r a country si acquired and so ruled as Iiioia has been by 
 the East India Company, is a real element of national greatness and streiigih. 
 
 0.10. 3 I 4 That,
 
 434 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appcndis, No. 7. That, as the Government of India has assumed and exercises the rights of a landlord over 
 
 all the soil of India, the obvious remedy for the financial embarrassment of that country 
 
 is the employment of adequate sums for ihe development of its great productive resources, 
 vvhicii are now either lymg dormant or altogether crushed ; that money raised by loan at 
 low riites of iniest, expended upon works nf irrigation, in the formation of railroads, of 
 common roads, and of bridges, and on tlie indispensable requirements of the rivers and 
 harbours, almost wholly neulecied, lying along a coast-line of the length of 7,500 miles — a 
 line equal to one diameter and one quarter of the globe — would, in the conviction of your 
 petitioners, at once lighten the taxation of the people, stimidate their industry, r.iise their 
 condition, greatly augment the general commeice of the country, and consequently increase 
 vastly the ))ublic revenues. 
 
 That there would be no difficulty in raising such loans in England to any prudent extent, 
 if the Directors of the East India Company had publicly made known the small comparative 
 cost at which the few public works they have attempted in India have been executed ; if 
 they had showed the great and yearly increasing profitable returns which those works are 
 everywhere yielding upon the capital expended; if all "orks to be executed and their 
 returns were offered to capitalists as the security for the loans to be laised ; and if the faith 
 of the British Government were pledged to the money so raised being scrupulonsly expended 
 upon their execution. 
 
 That your petitioners beg to refer your Honourable House to the evidence given in 1851 
 before the Committee of Official Salaries, for proof that, while the law professes to place the 
 Government of India in the East India Company, it really lodges that autiioiity in the 
 Minister of the Crown, who exercises it without direct Parliament;iry responsibility, and 
 under the name of the Directoi-s of that Company ; and that whenever the Secret Department 
 is brought into operation, that body in which the law professes to place the Government of 
 India, is entirely set aside. 
 
 That such a system is in principle unconstitutional, open to flagrant abuse, and inconve- 
 nient in practice; while it causes an enormous waste of public money and time. 
 
 Your petitioners further desire to bring to the notice of your Honourablv House that fiom 
 the first formation of the Board of Control in 1784 up to the present time, the instances in 
 which the members of that Board have been actually resident in India are rare; that at 
 this moment there is not an individual belonging to it who has ever visited India; that the 
 Board, therefore, in which the Legislature has vested plenary powers for the Government of 
 India is usually wholly ignoiant ol the character, the feelings, and the wants of the people 
 of India. 
 
 That by section 87, 3 & 4 Will. 4, c. 85, it was enacted, that no native of India should 
 be disqualified from holding office in India by reason of birth, caste, or colour. 
 
 That the avowed intention of the Legislature in passing this enactment was, that the 
 natives should be allowed to participate in offices which, up to that time, had been exclu- 
 gively held by the covenanted servants of the Company. 
 
 That, in the opinion of your petitioners, this enactment has been rendered inoperative by 
 that p<iri of the present system which places the patronage of India in the hands of the 
 executive body of the East India Company, namely, the 24 Directors. 
 
 That it is the interest of this body to keep establishments in India at a maximum — their 
 duty to leduce establishments to a minimum; it is their duty to give effect to the enact- 
 ment above referred to — their interest to make it, as it has been made, a dead letter ; because, 
 in proportion as natives are admitted to office in India is the initiatory patronage of the 
 executive body diminished. 
 
 That to tlie same cause must be ascribed, in the opinion of your petitioners, the entire 
 failure of what was considered a most important feature in the plan that was ratified by 
 Parliament in 1833, viz. the allotment of important powers and functions in the administra- 
 tion oi Indian afl'airs to the Court of Proprietors of Indian stock, the immense patronage 
 at the command of the executive enabling the latter at all limes to command a majority in 
 that court upon any question. 
 
 Your petitioners therefore earnestly solicit, that those who may be hereafter entrusted with 
 the Government of India shall be adequately paid in money, and the patronage of India 
 transferred to other hands. 
 
 That your petitioners beg to lemind your Honourable House, that Parliament has twice 
 declared it to be " repugnant to the wish, the honour, mid the policy of the country, to 
 pursue schemes of conquest and extension of territory in India ;" that the Government of 
 India has nevertheless recently expressed its determination to avail itself of every oppor- 
 tunity that may occur of extending that territory, by making forfeitures and escheats of 
 native states; that your petitioners therefore solicit that the law on this subject, and the 
 practice, may be made to harmonise. 
 
 That, as stated by one of the Directors of the East India Company in the Court of Pro- 
 prietors, " our incesssant encroachments and sequestrations of native territories make every 
 native sovereign fear that he will be the next victim; while our constant territorial appro- 
 priations and resumptions of rent-free lauds lead the people at large to fear that we are only 
 anxious to make a government of officials on the one hand, and a nation of serls en the 
 other." That yuiir petitioners are jjrepared with evidence to prove that this system of 
 encroachment ujjon sacred rights has tended to alienate the affections of the people of India 
 from British rule. 
 
 That,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 43.- 
 
 That your petitioners therefore request that a competent tribunal may be created in India yi„nenilix No - 
 
 for ileterminiiiu; upon the pretensions oC ail persons who may chiiin to be heirs nccording 1 
 
 to the hiw ol' In.lia, to any native state, principaiiiy, jai^iieer, or estate, before the Britisli 
 Govt rnment de;ils with any such as an esciieat, or declares it to be forfeited and annexed to 
 tlie British dounnions. 
 
 That a commission was appointed in l!533 to frame and compile, as was stated, a code of 
 laws for the people of India; that, though a very heavy expense lias been ever since 
 annually incurred in maiut.iininir that commission, no such code has been framed. Your 
 petitioners tlierefurc request your Honoura!)le House to institute inquiries into tlie cause of 
 this failure, and into ihecost of this legislative experiment to the people of India. 
 
 That when by tlie Act of :5d and 4th, passed in the reign of the late king, the Supreme 
 Government iif India, seated in Calcutta, was invested with a strict control over the subor- 
 dinate Presidencies, it was the intention of the Legislature that such Government should be 
 partly composid ot persons in the service of those PreMdencies ; that during the currency 
 of the existing Charter, only one individual from the Presidency of Madras has been 
 appomted 10 the Supreme Council, and not one from Bombay. That as the aftiiir? of those 
 Presidencies are neglected and damaged by the absence from the Supreme Council of per- 
 sons acquainted with them, your petitioners pray that inquiry may be made into the cause 
 of this omission, and the manner in which it lias affected the welhue of the subordinate 
 Presidencies. 
 
 Your petitioners therefore humbly pray, that your Honourable House will refer the mat- 
 ter of this petition, and the fiicts and statements therein set forth, for the investigation and 
 report of the Commiiiee of your Honourable House appointed to review the conduct and 
 affairs of the East India Company. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray. 
 
 Jusepli Iliiitw. 
 John Uriggs. 
 Thos. Dickinson, 
 &c. &c. See. 
 
 The humble Petition of the undersigned Ministers of the Gospel resident in 
 
 Western India. 
 
 Showeth, 
 That your petitioners are members of various Protestant denominations, and most of 
 them having resided a considerable time in India, have had many opportunities of becoming- 
 acquainted wiih the condition and character of the natives of this country, amor-g whom 
 most of your petitioners have been and are employed in labour, with a view to their enlight- 
 enment and conversion. 
 
 That your petitioners are very deeply interested in the welfare of India, and liave 
 accordingly watched with anxious solicitude the deliberations of the Britisli Parliament on 
 questions bearing on the advancement of this country; and that it is their most earnest 
 hope and prayer that your Honourable House may be endowed with wisdom from on High, 
 so as to be led to the adojition of measures, especially when the renewal of the Charter of 
 the Kast India Company is under consideration, which shall tend to the honour of the 
 British nation and the welfare of this great country, whose interests, under God, have been 
 so wonderfully entrusted to the care of Britain. 
 
 Tliat your petitioners intend to call the attention of your Honourable House at present 
 only to a few of the many points craving carelul consideration at this important juncture, as 
 connected with the well-being of India, but that your petitioners by no means desire it to 
 be inferred that they consider the points to which they may not advert to be unimportant 
 or uninfluential. On the contrary, your petitioneis believe that there are many things 
 connected with the social and economic state cf the country — the administration of justice, 
 and other subjects, which deserve the most earnest consideration of your Honourable 
 House. 
 
 That your petitioners intend to confine their remarks to matters bearing on the intel- 
 lectual, moral, and religious well-being of India. 
 
 That your petitioners cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge that, in connexion with such 
 vital subjects as have now been mentioned, the Government of this country, with the 
 sanction of the Biitish Parliament, has on several occasions successfidly exerted its power 
 with a view to the su|)pression of serious evils; and that especially the abolition of suttee, 
 the efforts to suppress infanticide and thuggism, the discontinuance in many instances of 
 Governmenr connexion with itlolatry, and the protection of the rights of conscience by the 
 Lidian Act XXI. of 1850, form a ground of much joy and ih mkiulness on the part of all 
 those who desiie to heboid the establishment of truth and righteousness in this land. 
 
 That your petitioners, nevertheless, are deeply convinced that gieat and serious evils still 
 exist, to which it would not be difficult to apply a remedy. 
 
 0.10. 3 K I. That,
 
 436 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Annendix, No. 7. !• Tl'.at, in the firsl pluce, your petitioners would direct the attention of your Honourable 
 
 '' !_ HoKse 10 the relation which exists between the huiiiin Government and the religions of the 
 
 natives of the land. Your peiitioners would preface their suggestions by the reni;irk that it 
 is the duty of Government itself to prosecute inquiries into this vitally important subject ; 
 that, in a country whose adiiiinisisation is conducled, like ilnit of India, on a principle of 
 thesirictest secresy, it is exceedinsly difficult for parties unconnected with Government to 
 obtain that precise and dett.iled information on whicii any appeal could be founded, even 
 where deplorable evils undoubtedly e.\ist. Your petiiioners are convinced that ilie support 
 still given tn idolatry throughout Luiia would, by its magnitude, astonish the Government 
 iiselfj if all the ramifications of the subject were traced out. In the Parliamentary Returns 
 tiie simi annually expended by Government for the support of idolatry, in the Bombay 
 Presidency, is set down at seven lacs of rupees (Rs. 690,093. 7. 4.), but ymir petitioners 
 believe that the aniouni is in realiiy consideiably laraer even than the enormous sum now 
 specified. Tiierc is scarcely a village, houever wretched, over the Maratha country, in 
 which there is not fonie temple or shrine supported at Governn)cnt expense ; and your 
 petitioners, after much inquiry, havt- been led to the conclusion that many of the charges 
 connected witli such institutions are either not embodied in the public accounts, or find 
 their way into these tuider a name which does not siiovv their real nature and application. 
 Geneiallv spcaki'ig, the ^anie ajipropriation-; from the revenue are made by the British- 
 Government 10 leniplcs, &c. aiuler the general name of Giam Khaieh,or village expenses, 
 which were granted by the native princes at their own discretion, and without a chartered 
 endowment. This arrangement has all the deplorable effects of a Government establishment 
 of heathenism. 
 
 That your petitioners will not dwell on the evil as it e.xisis in distant parts of Indi;i, and 
 will merely confine their remaiks to their own presidency; but they cannot refrain froiUi 
 expre>siug their deep regret and astonishment that the case of the temple of Juguernuath, 
 which has acquired an unhappy celebrity throughout all the civilised world, should to this 
 day remain in so unsatisfactory a position. 
 
 That your petitioners cheerlullv acknowledge that in their own presidency an important 
 step has been taken in the appointment of committees of n.itives to administer tlie revenues 
 of native temples, but regret that a virtual connexion between Government and these 
 temples is still in some cases maintained, innsmucli as these committees or trustees are 
 theoretically the deputies of the Government. Your petitioners humbly beg that vacancies 
 among such be filled up solely by the natives themselves, and that the management of 
 temples and temple revenues be subject to revision oidy in a court of law at the suit of 
 tiiose concerned. 
 
 That your petitioners farther cheerfully acknowledge an impoitant change that has taken 
 place in their immediate neighbourhood in the c.ise of Dukshina Fund in I'oona, which,, 
 instead of being devoted to the support of Biahmans, is now administereci so as to foster 
 the giowtli of native liierature and schools, a change that has been abeadv accompanied 
 with the happiest results, and the general satisfaction of the natives. Your petitioners 
 earnestly beg that tiie principle whicli has in this case been acted on may be consistently 
 carried out in similar cases. Your petiiioners in this connexion would crave special 
 attention to the fact that among the allowances to native religious institutions a very large 
 number issued by tiic native rulers previously to the Engli>h occupation of the country 
 were revocable, and uere cletirly understood to be such. With regard to such endowments 
 there is no difficulty in their being applied to purposes of real improvement, such as tlx; 
 construction of roads, the support of schools, ice. Your petitioners are convinced that, 
 while anyihiiig like a confiscation of such revenues to the general purposes of Government 
 would excite alarm and displeasure, then' application to pur))oses of local improvement 
 would in most cases meet with no op|)osition, provided the rights of the present possessors 
 of the emlowmeiits were respected, and their application altered only as these successively 
 died out. 
 
 That your petitioners regret to think that, although an important change in the form of 
 administering oaths to natives has been introdured into the courts of the Honourable East 
 India Company, yet in the supreme courts of judicature at the jjresidencies, ilie oath is still 
 administeivd to natives in such a manner as afUxes the sanction of Government to the 
 lieathen religions. 
 
 That your petitioners would next briiia' to the notice of your Honourable House the 
 honours paid to Hindu princes in their rehiiious festivals, especially the llolee and the 
 Dusseia. it is a reinarkal>le fact that the highest honours are not ))aid to Hindu prince.^ 
 on their biilh-days, review-days, or other occasions in which iluii- royal dignity is promi- 
 nently brought foi'vard, b'lt are rendered only on those days on which the princes apjrear 
 as leaders 111 idolatry. When the only occasions throughout the year when British troops 
 are called out of their cantonments, and lieyond their own limits to salute Hindu rajahs, 
 are idolatrous festivals, and «hen the only regularly recurring visit paid in state by a 
 British Residint 10 a Hindu rajah is on an idolatrous festival, your petitioners cannot be 
 surpiisid ihat the iiativis should coii-ider that the honour is paid mote to the festival than 
 the prince; nay, your pelitioneis lumddv but ean^e^tly suggest that in the sight of God 
 and man the Biitish authorities are thus fullv implicated in the support of that idolatry to 
 which ilii-.ir presence gives eclat. Your petitioners legard the remedy as plain and easy. 
 Let the iKjiioiira 10 native rajahs be systematically rendered 01 occasions not idolatrous, 
 such as those specified above; birth-days, coronation-days, or review-days. 
 
 That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE O^ INDIAN TERRITORIES. 4.5- 
 
 That your petitioners trust it is not necessary for them to declare that in all the above Appcndw No " 
 su<riiestions tliey have sirupulou-ly maintained, what in all circumstances oucrht to be ~— ' 
 
 maintained, the most perfect toleration ;in(l fre(-dom of the rights of conscience. They 
 desire no Government interference against idolatry; all that they crave is that there be none 
 in its suppori. 
 
 II. That, secondly, the subject of Indian education deserves the earnest consideration of 
 your Honourable House, the s;reat mass of the population of this country being- sunk in a 
 degree of int(!lleetual and moral darkness which 10 11 resident in Europe i> liardly con- 
 ceivable; a grievous evil in itself, and the fruitful source of many other deplorable evils. 
 
 That of the thrie educational agencies at work in India, viz. the Government system, 
 the missionaiy system, the native svstem, the first comprehends, even in the Bombay 
 Presidency, in winch it is comparatively larger than in other paits of India, according to the 
 last report, under 13,000 pupils; the missionary one comprehends in all India between 
 60,000 and 70,000 pupils, male and female, a number seemingly large, but small in pro- 
 portion to tiie exigency of the case; the native system of education is still more widely 
 extended, hut it cannot be reckoned as at all efficient ; if ii keeps the mind of India from 
 retrograding, it has accomplished all that can be expected fiom it. An extension of the 
 means of education, therefore, is one of the most pressing wants of India; especially of 
 education in tiie country districts, and in the vernacular lang-aages. 
 
 That your petitioners are well aware of the difficult problem which the Christiini Govern- 
 ment of India has to solve in accommodiiting an educational scheme to the inhabitants of 
 a heathen country; and are willing and desirous to make every proper allowance for imper- 
 fections and evils unavoidable in such a condition of things. Neveitheless, your petitioners 
 cannot lefiain from solemnly declaring that they contemplate with great alarm the effects 
 already resulting, and likely to result, from a national system of education from which 
 Christian instruction is systematically and authoritatively excluded, even in the case of 
 those who might be willing to recive it. 
 
 That your petitioners cannot omit to draw attention to one serious evil connecied with 
 Government education in Wesiern India, viz. the encouragement extended to caste preju- 
 dices and intolerance. Although no specific regulation exists by which the lowest castes 
 are excluded from Government schools in this presidency, yet it is the universal belief of 
 the natives that such castes are not admissible; and your petitioners are fully aware that 
 applications for admission by low-casle men have been made, and, with the full knowledge 
 and sanction both of Government and the Board of Education, have been rejected. That 
 yom- petitioners are wholly at a loss to understand the grounds of such rejection of the lower 
 classes, and earnestly solicit the redress of a grievance for which no grounds, even of expe 
 diency, not to speak of justice, can be shown. This exclusiveness in the Government 
 system of education in Western India is the more intolerable, because in Madras it has been 
 emphatically repudiated. 
 
 III. That, thirdly, your petitioners contemplate with exceeding alarm the stale of intem- 
 perance among the natives of Western India; it being an undoubted and most melancholy 
 fact that intemperance has greatly increased for years past, and is still rapidly incre.isinor ; 
 this being especially remarkable in the Maraiha country, in which, previously to its occu- 
 pation by the English, the use of intoxicating drinks was very liiriited. 
 
 That your petitioners cannot divest themselves of the apprehension that, unless recourse 
 be had to some far more potent cheek than any now in operation, the most frightful demo- 
 ralization and degradation are in consequence inevitable throughout a large portion of the 
 native community. 
 
 That your petitioners are convinced that the licensing system at pre>ent in operation 
 tends to the increase of the fearful evil of intemperance, especially because it removes, in 
 the estimation of the natives, ihe stigma of disgrace which ihe native governmeuis and the 
 natives generally have hitherto attached to it. .Although your Honourable House may 
 hanlly be prepared for the fact, a Government tax on liquor conveys to the naiive mind the 
 idea rather of patronage than of toleration; and, in country districts at least, the farming 
 system has been widely interpreted as affixing the high sanction of Government to this 
 degrading and ruinous vice. 
 
 That your petitioners submit that an early application of some efficient remedy for this 
 rapidly exiending evil is exceedingly desirable; and that the natives themst-lves so ear- 
 nestly desire it, that a recurrence to the practice of the native governments, which applied 
 stringent restrictive measures to the use of intoxicating drinks, would receive the heartv 
 approval of the more respectable classes of the native conmiuniiy. 
 
 IV. That, fourthly, your petitioners view with no less sorrow the traffic in opium carried 
 on by the Government of this country. The evil to the inhabitants of India is exceedingly 
 great; the use of this poisonous drug is rapidly extending throughout the opium-growing 
 districts and those adjacent, such as Giijar.it, and is jjroducin'j, the most banelul effects. 
 Your petitioners I'arther cannot think of the contraband trade in opium with the Chinese 
 empire without the deepest regret, since the revenue laiscd from opium by the Ea>t India 
 
 0-10. 3 K 2 Company,
 
 438 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Jippendix, >>" 0. 7. 
 
 Company, under the sanction of Parliament, implicates tlie British authorities as partners 
 in this denioializing and ruinous traffic. 
 
 Thai, nnally, vour jutitioners earnestly trust that your Honourable House will accord to 
 the points which liavc now been specified, and to all kindred suggestions connected with ihe 
 well-being of this country, that deep and careful attention to which their momentous cha- 
 racter entitles tiiem ; and tliat, under the guidance of Almighty God, who alone givelh 
 wisdom, your Honourable House may be brouglit to such conclusions as shall constitute the 
 present juncture a new and better era ; the commencement of a period during which India 
 shall itself pursue a course ol' true and solid happiness, and even cause the blessing to over- 
 flow to other lands : for, adverting to past ages, in which this country exerted a powerful 
 influence on surrounding kingdoms, your petitioners will cherish the pleasing hope that, 
 with the enrichiuL' favour oi Almighty God, the day may ere long arrive when India, 
 enlightened and blessed, shall wield an influence over the other nations of Asia not inferior 
 in dX'gree to that which she possessed of old, and greatly more beneficent in character. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray that the Spirit of God may at ail times guide the 
 deliberations and resolutions of your Honourable House, so that the righteousness which 
 exalteth a nation may, through your instrumentality, be mightily advanced throughout all 
 the territories of the T3ritish empire. 
 
 D. O. Allen, A.M., of the American Mission. 
 11. Bullanthie, of the American Mission. 
 George Candy, Corresponding Secretary, C. M. S. 
 Bombay, 17 December 1852. kc. &c. &.c. 
 
 Acvenuc. 
 
 The humble Petition of the Madras Native Association, and others. Native Inliabitants 
 
 ol the Presidency of Madras, 
 
 Showeth, 
 1. That your petitioners, availinn- themselves of the Parliamentary inve^tigaiion into the 
 condition and government of British India, under the charier of tlie East India Company, 
 now near the tenn of its expiration, desire respectfully to place before your Honourable House 
 some few or' the many grievances and wants belonging more immediately to the inhabitants 
 of the Madras Presidency; claiming at the same time ihe indulgence of your Honourable 
 House, should tlieir statements be I'ound less explicit than difl'use, from the impossibility of 
 obtaining access to official documents, capable of substantiatinir so fully as your petitioners 
 could wish the various complaints they have the honour to present; the local government 
 having declined replying to a written application from the association (dated 1.5th April 
 18o'i) for permission to have copies of necessary papers, and the officers of Government 
 being prohibiicd from furnishing them. 
 
 •1. That the grievances of your petitioners arise principally from the excessive taxation 
 and the vexations which accotupany its collection ; atid the insufficiency, delay, and 
 expense ol' the Company's courts of law : and their chief wants are, the construction of roads, 
 bridges, and works for the supply of irrigation ; and a better provision for the education of 
 the people. They also desire a reduction ot the public expenditure, and a form of local go- 
 venunent more generally conducive to the ha|>pmess of the subject and the prosperity of 
 the country ; and to these main jjointsyour peiitioiiers beg the consideration ol your Honour- 
 able House, respectfully applying in behali of themselves and their countrymen for those 
 remedies .md reforms which, in the wisdom of your Honourable House, may be deemed 
 expedient and practicable. With this brief explanaiion, your petitioners proceed to 
 detail : — 
 
 :}. That, the Hindus being for the most ])art an agricultural people, ihe chief revenue of the 
 state is derivable from its crojis ; which have been taxed or assessed under difterent modes 
 by the Hindu, IVIahomedan, ami English Governments respectively. With the Hindus, 
 the revenue was collected Irom c;ich vilkiLie, through the medium of persons making ovi'r 
 to the officers ol' Govenmient its division of the produce in kind, amounting from one-sixth 
 in time of peace, and to one-l'ourlh in times ol war or state emergency, as laid down in the 
 instil utcs of Manu, translated by Sir ^\'i!lialll Jones, chapter vii. verse 127, " Let the king 
 oblige traders to pay taxes on tiieir saleable conimoiliiies ; of grain an eighth part, a sixth, 
 or a twelfth, according to the differ< lue of the soil and the labour neecssaiy to cultivate it ;" 
 and in chap. 10, v. llil!, " A military king who takes even a fourth part of the crops of his 
 realtn at a time of urgent necessity, as ot war or invasion, and protects his people to the 
 utmost of his power, commits no sin;" and v. 120, "The tax on the mercantile class, 
 which in times of piosperily must only he a twillth i)art of their crops, may be an eighth 
 of their crops in a time of distress, or a sixth, which is a medium, or even a fourth, in great 
 jiublic adversity." 
 
 4. That iliis proportion continued to be » xacted till the invasion of the IMahoinedans, as 
 is a])])areiit from Fi rishta, translated bv Briggs, where it is found, page 4o:J, vol. iv., " One 
 of Ihe earliest acts of the hist king of Cnshiiieie in the year a.d. i;i20 was to confirm tor 
 « ver the ;iiui( ni I;ind-t:ix, whiih amounted to 17 per cent., or about one-sixth of the 
 whole pioduct of tlu land :" ai.d in the Aytcn Akbtiy, vol. i. [lart ii. p. 215, it is stated, 
 
 " III
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 439 
 
 *' In former limes the monarclts or rajahs of IIindo-.tan only exacted one-sivth of the pro- Apiieodix. N'o •'. 
 clucc fi'iim the cuitiviitoi." But in the eaily ymrt oC Mahoinedaii rule, accorditi"- to — . 
 
 I'erishta, the King ol Delhi raised the tax to one-half the produce; that of ihe wet cultiva- 
 tion beinii' delivered in kind, and of the dry, j^cnerally in money, at a fixed commutation; 
 and the zamindary system having been then introduced, the payments were made to the 
 zamindars, who were cither farmers of the assessment, or persons to whom districts had 
 been granted by tlie luling power, in return for past, or tlie expectation of future, services. 
 
 3. That when the British Government first assumed territorial property and rights in 
 this part of India in 175!), they found the Northern Circars divided into zamindaries, 
 paliams, ant! ain-lands. In the last-mentioned, the ryots ))aid government dues to the 
 servants of the state, or to renters, who farmed tlie revenue; in the two fnrmcr, the dues 
 were paid to the zamindars and poligars, who held iheir property hereditarily and dis- 
 posably, so long as they paid the peisheash or tribute, in consideration of which ihe 
 management (if the lands had been made over to them ; and this practice was permitted 
 to continue unaltered till the year 17G5), when three boards, or councils, wore established, 
 who managed the revenues, and ruled the country till the year 17H!), when a fixed settlenu-nt 
 was made with the zamindars, whose revenues were estimated, and ihey wtre made to pay 
 one-third of thiir rental to ihe Government ; and the lands hitherto managed by stipendiary 
 officers, or farmers, being placed under the control of cllectors, were parcelled out into 
 divisions, called moottahs, and their tenures sold by public auction. The same plan was 
 acted upon in the new acquisitions of the Honourable Company, till the year 1799, when 
 the permanent settlement of Lord Cornwallis was ordered to be introduced, although in the 
 interim, on the occupation of Baramahal and Dindigul in 1793, Colonel Read had been 
 making out a new plan, which, on the failure <>f that of Lord Cornwallis, after a tiial of 
 three years, 1803-4-S, eventuated in the ryotwar system, which, with very slight modifi- 
 cation, is now prevalent in 17 out of the 20 collectoraies forming the Madras Presidency, 
 under which the entire assessment is collected in money, anil from each individual culti- 
 vator, directly by the deputed servants of the State. 
 
 0. That your petitioners, ;is Hindus, and naturally attached to tiieir national and ancestral 
 customs, have had, and continue to have, the greatest repugnance to the innovations of 
 both the zamindary and ryotwar systems; the more so, as they arc both the instruments 
 of injustice and oppression, but especially the ryotwar, the operation of which has reduced Ryotwar. 
 the agiicullural classes to the deepest poverty and destitution. 
 
 7. That this system was introduced for the double purpose of ])ieventing the accumu- 
 lation of landed property by the natives, the zamindarships being hereditary, regarding 
 which, when recommending the ryotwar system, Sir Thomas Munro records in his minute 
 of the 10th August 1807, ttie following observation ; — " That tiie great zamindar defies all 
 authority, and will keep the lyots as poor as they have ahvays been, and the small one, 
 or moolahdar, will endeavour to imitate him in his state and armed followers ; tliat though 
 most of the mootahs will finally resolve into ryotuar I'arms, many of the greater ones will 
 jissume the character of zamindaries or poligarships ; 1 hat the country will be filled with 
 petty armed chiefs, who may hereafter combine to disturb the public tranquillity ; and that 
 the system is, on the whole, detrimental to the country, and dangerous to Government." 
 And the desire of rendering each individual cultivator immediately dependent on the autho- 
 rity of tlie State, while it was imagined that it would altogether exempt him from the 
 vexatious intermeddling of the subordinate servants of the Government; consequently it 
 involved the parcelling out of the whole country into innumerable small |)oriioiis, varying 
 from one to ten or more acres, or whatever standard of land-measure might happen to be 
 that common in the district. That could not be etlVcted without a complete measurement 
 of each province into which the systiin had to be successively introduced, and of course the 
 separate valuation of every minute portion, in order to fix the precise rate of its individual 
 assessment. 
 
 «. That this most intricate and at the same time gigantic plan was commenced without 
 the aid of a single surveying instrument, except a "chain of 33 feet, or a glimpse of 
 scieniitic knowledge beyond that of the naiive cutcherry gomastahs or clerks,"who, as a 
 jjart of their duty, were to instruct others in the art of mensuraiion, an art in which, being 
 completely untaught tlumselvts, they had 10 acquire from no belter educaiion llian the pro^ 
 gress of their own survey. These clerk surveyors were |)aid 21 ru|)ees per month, and 
 " were encouraged to be exjieditious by the hope of gain, and deterretl from being inaccu- 
 rate by the fear of dismissal ;" and when 10 the utter incompetency ot these clerk mea- 
 sures is added the fact that the fields of a village arc often confusedly intermixed, not only 
 among liiemselves, but with the fields of other villages, as, for instance, in a part of the 
 Shealley talook of the Tanjore colltclorate, where, within the space of two and a half 
 square miles, there are parts of 17 villages, and even these parts of villages are each not 
 a single connected piece of land, but the combination of several detached fragments, while 
 in some places two or more villages are composed of fit-Ids belongniii to one and another 
 village ai'ernalely, and others where four fifths of a single held belong to one village, and 
 one-hl'th to another, it will be manifest that aiiyihing like a correct sn!ve\-, or even an 
 approximation to it, must have been an absolute inipossibilitv, and 11 is a v\ell-l<now!i and 
 po^illve fact that there is not, and never has been, any establishment whatever fiir land 
 surveying, neither has a Correct survey been maile of any individual porti'in of the Madras 
 terriiorits up to ibis day. 
 
 c.io. 3 K 3 J). That
 
 440 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Vppenilix, No. 7. 9. That one of ihe immediate consequences of this gomastah measurement was a vast 
 — - ' increase in tlie quantitv of l.iml over the ancient me;isuremeni by the curnums of villages, 
 the persons who ;ire" siiiien hy Sir T. V. Sionhousp, a revenue officer of acknowledged 
 ability, in his " Obseivaiions on the Ryoiwar of tlie Madras Presidency," " to have ser- 
 tainly the best knowledge of land measuring of any other diss of persons in India." This 
 increase in some districts was so great as 75 per cent, and, as it vv;is impiacticable to 
 auo-raent the revenue in the same proportion, the new measurement in these particular 
 cases had to be adjusted by the old, a convincing proof that the attempt was a iiopeless 
 failure. 
 
 10. That in proceeding from the survey to the classification of the land the task was 
 scarcely less Ibrmidable, and it was begun by sending two assessors to classify the space 
 measured by ten surveyors; their business was to arrange it under the principid divisions 
 of wet, dry, and garden land, snbtlividing these again into various classes according to the 
 presumed qualityby a process so perfectly arbitrary, tiiat in some districts the wet land had 
 12 classes, the dry 20, and the g.irden land as many ; in others the wet had four classes, 
 the dry 12, and the garden four, while it was of continual occurrence that two fields adjoining 
 each otiier would be entered in different classes, and even single fields were placed in the 
 same improbable if not impossible category. As migi.t have been expected, these assessors, 
 partlv trom ignorance, and partly from the persuasion of bribery, made a great many erro- 
 neou'-. idassifications, and accordingly it was thought advisable, for the sake of producing 
 uniformity and chfcking abuses, to appoint live head assessors selected from the ijody of 
 subordinate ones; but even these could not be trusted for judgment and impaitialily, and 
 the whole of their revisions had to undergo a complete examination at tlie collector's 
 cutcherry. 
 
 That the classification having been thus settled, not by the returns of the assessors, but 
 by the arbitrary opinion of the cutcherry, the next step was to fix such a sum as it was 
 thought would be the fair assessment f.Tthe district in its then present state, that furnished 
 by the assessors being mistrusted equally with their classification, which operation imme- 
 diate reduced the assessors' estimate from 5 to 15 per cent, on the aggregate; and the next 
 step was to distribute the sum fixed as the aggregate of the district among the different 
 viliao'es it contains, thus causing a second alteration in the assessors' estimates, and by whicli 
 what was deducted from one set of villages was added to another; after this a third alte- 
 ration had to be made at the end of the year, causing a furtiier reduction on fields asserted 
 by the cultivators to have been over-assessed, and it usually amounted from one to one and 
 a half per cent. 
 
 12. That, having thus briefly alluded to the utter futility of tiie measuremeni, and the 
 fallacious classification of the land, your petitioners would next call the attention of your 
 Honourable House to the amount of the assessment, and its commutation into money. The 
 amount exacted under the Hindu princes never exceeded one quarter, or 25 per cent on the 
 gross produce ; this the Mahomedans doubled, acting on the principle that the rights of a 
 conquered country cease and determine by the act of conquest, the pioprietary right of the 
 land beinu' transferred to the conquerors, and that, as it is lawful to take the whole oi the. 
 persons and property of infidels, anil to distribute them among the Musselmans, it follows 
 that taking only half their incomes was an act of mercy. 
 
 1:3. That this amount of revenue, fixed by the principles of the Koran, has continued to 
 be exacted by the tast India Company, but your petitioners apprehend, without the same 
 appearance of justice, for to say nothing of the difference of creed, the way in which the 
 Company obtained possession of the country is sirikiuiily dissimilar. The Mahomedans 
 conquered by and for themselves, but from the earliest date of the Company's acquisitions 
 on the coast of Coroinaiidel, they Inive always had the assistance of the natives of the 
 country; fir^t, as armed jieons, and subsequently as trained soldiers, who have stood by 
 them in all their batiles, whether against oliier European poweis or the Mahoinedan dynas- 
 ties fioni whom the conquest was achieved, and who now form seven-eighths of the military 
 force by which the tiritish territories are defended ; consequently the people claim to be 
 regarded by tlie English .is friendly allies, rather than iiifiilcls and v.mquislud enemies ; 
 and, as the Ci/inirany profess to govern for the benefit of the coimlry as well as for their 
 ciwn, siMiiething moieouglu 10 be left to the cultivator thiin the miserable pittance required 
 for the support of hims-.fr and fimily, and for seed; and yet even so much as this pittance 
 is not left him under the "pcration of the r\otwar system. 
 
 14. That, adoptinn' the amount of one-half as the revenue due to the State, the autho- 
 rities of the day coniniutcd this share into money, in what way your petitioiiers cannot say. 
 as Colonel Munro, the principal agent and auihoriiy, has not explained it in any of his 
 reports, nor has he imparted any mfbiniation as to the data and principles on which he 
 formed hs tables of rales for the different cla.sses of lands, and even up to this date there 
 IS no fixed system of commutation, but different modes are practised, not only i.i different 
 distiicts, but even in the various subdivisions of eacli distiict. The immcdinte 1 ons(([uenee 
 oi this coiiniutatioi! was a gradual and general fall in the price <it all lirains, which, for a 
 long .serie* of yenrs past, has been so low as to reduce all but the niosi sul)5tantial ryots to 
 a siale of almost beggary ; thus, for instance, as in the southern division of Arcot, where 
 the price i>t the date of its suivey was five culluins per pigoda, on a piece of land pro- 
 •hicing 100 culluins, ihc half share of 50 cullums being convened into money, paid the 
 Government the sum of 10 pagodas; but as the present price is seven cullums per pagoda, 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 44, 
 
 tl>e ryot niiisi dispose of 70 in oidcr to meet the assessment, retuii)iii;r tor his shiire only 
 30, whicl) gives him 4*2-7ilis pjigodas in tiie place of 10, while the Govenimeiit receives 10 
 pagodas ;is (he h;;lf .share of 142-7ths pai:<>d;is, tiie sellin;^ price ot the 100 culhiins • 
 and a similar deterionuion 111 the value of grain h,is taken place throughout the whole 
 presidency. 
 
 15. That the extent ot this evil is shown in a voluminous Minute of the Board of 
 Revenue, dated 5th January 1818, whicli acknowledges that, "while the ryotwar survey 
 assessment professed lo fix an equal and mnderute tax in money on each field, in almost 
 every ii:st;inee it greatly increased the Government demand upon the country. In Diucliu-u! 
 it nearly donhled the public assessment. In 15;\ramah>d ii increased it 21 per ceni. In 
 the northern division of Arcot, tlie addition. d imposts and ille;4al exactions of the renteis 
 under the (former) native governments were, by the ryotwar survey, incorporated with the 
 laud rent. In Nellore the liiiihest rate of tcerva (money payment) fixed on the finest 
 land v.as alone declared to be the ultimate limit of the Government demand upon all land ; 
 and even in the ceded districts, where it was perhaps most moderate, the demand on the 
 land was raised so high as to be in general greatly beyond the resources of the people." 
 
 16. That, Sir Thomas Munio having returned to Europe in the year 1807, and these evil® 
 of the ryotwar exceeding all bounds, the Government of Madras had recourse, in the year 
 1808, to the partial introduction of the village settlement ; first for three, and subsequently 
 for ten years. Under the triennial settlement the lands were rented out to contractors, the 
 average collection being taken into consideration, and ihe highest proposals accepted; and, 
 this being Ibund but little less objectionable than the ryotwar sy.stem, the next resouice 
 was the decennial seitlenunt, on ihe principle of assessing for the said term of years a 
 fixed sum as public revenue ; and in consideration of the payment of that sum, making- 
 over for that period the Government right to the public revenue from the entire land of the 
 whole village, both arable and waste, to the village community, by a direct settlement with the 
 whole body of ryots collectively, or with the beads of the village. When the villaoe was 
 not rented in this manner the public revenue was collected either by an intermediate renter 
 or by the officers ol Government, and in kind or money, as might be the local custom. 
 
 17. That this system was progressing in a manner most favourable to the ryots and the 
 public revenue, when, in the year 1818, the Court of Directors having determined upon 
 enforcing the ryotwar, ordered it to be resumed and prosecuted under a modified form, 
 called the field ryotwar; and when, in the year 1820, Sir Thomas Munro arrived m 
 Madias as Governor of the presidency, the exorbitant taxation of the old system was 
 sought to be alleviated by a reduction of the assessment, to the amount of 25 per cent, on 
 dry and wet lands, and 33 per cent, on garden lands, in the ceded districts, where the Board 
 of Revenue esteemed the assessment " most moderate." A reduction of lih per cent, was 
 also made in the district of North Arcot, and similar reductions were directed to be made 
 in other districts, conditionally. Remissions are likewise taking place on account of 
 failure ot' crops from year to year; but these partial changes, (breed upon the Government 
 by necessity, have little or no effect on the evils inherent to the system, which press the 
 more heavily on the ryots, because it is almost entirely under the management of the 
 collector's deputy, the tehsildar, who, as his executive officer, possesses all the puwer of the 
 collector, fiscal, police, judicial, and miscellaneous, and the control not only of his own 
 immediate establisliment, but over all the village officers within his distiict, which <'ontains, 
 on an average, from 100 to 300 villages, with a revenue from one lack to two and a half 
 lacks of rupees. 
 
 18. Tiiat the tehsildar of each talook — such is the denomination given to his division — 
 on the 12th day of July in every year, proci-eds (in some places by hiiiisell', in others bv 
 his subordinates), to fix the quantity of land to be taken up collectiveU' and individually 
 for the year ensuins:. By this settlement, called the dittum, or fixation, each ryot ought, 
 by the 4lh section of " Standard Manual of f>ules," dated 10th January 18i>0 — " occupants 
 of land are at liberty toenlarije or contract their holdings in both cases (i. e.,as to increase 
 or decrease) by entire fields" — 10 have only such land as he cluKjses to accept ; but really, 
 owing to the tehsildar's authority, he is compelled to take such as this officer is pleased to 
 appoint, and it is only by the force of bribes, smaller or larger, according to circumstances, 
 that the ryot is permitted to escape from an oppressive allotment as regards its quality. 
 
 19. That at the time of this settlement ail the poorer ryots, by far the more numerous of 
 the entire body, stand in need of advances for the purchase of bullocks lost during the past 
 year, as well as for seed, the repair of their own wells, and implements ; and in order to* 
 procure hired assistance from those who have not taken up any dittum ; and the Cirkar or 
 Government ijcnerally allows advances of money, called liieeavv, to be made on this account, 
 security bonds being taken from the surety; but as the allowed sum is always far too little 
 to meet the wants of all the apjilicants, there is necessarily a competition for the tehsildar's 
 favour in its distribution, for whicii he obtains from the successiul candidates a bonus or 
 deduction from their respective advances, averaging ten per cent, upon the whole tuccavy ^ 
 and thus the ryotwar system, whilst it professes to raise the ryot from ])overty to inde- 
 pendence, by inducing him lo cultivate on his own account, actually tends lo saddle iiiiii 
 with an annually augmenting load of debt, and converts him from a poor but bee labourer 
 into a beggar and a slave. On the general efieets of this svsten of eneouiaging cultivation, 
 your [)etiti-.iners quote the lollovving remarks from the work of Sir T. V. Stonhouse, belore 
 quoted : — 
 
 o.io. 3 K 4 " As 
 
 Appendix, No.
 
 44-2 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. "As regards tiiccavy, or advances for cultivation, it was a ])riiiciple oCSirT. Munro's 
 ryotwar that taccavy was 10 be gradually discontinued ; and has it been so even in the 
 
 Report, 15 Aiig:us) ceded districts, although a period of nearly 40 years has elapsed since that rule was made? 
 
 ^^'* Are not tuccavy advances still made year after year to the ryots of Bellaiy and Cuddapah .' 
 
 The records of the Board of Revenue and of the Government can supply tiie answer. The 
 tuccavy advances in Bellary are so large as very recently, I believe, to have attracted 
 the notice of Government, and to call for explanatiou; and it is only in consequence of the 
 stringent orders from the Court of Directors, four or five years back, that the animal 
 advances tor tuccavy in the several districts have been consideral)lv reduced. The average 
 advances of tlie last five years have been only 3,52,87'2,* while that of tiie preceding five 
 years was 0,73,579 rupees,-!" and in previous years still larger ; and the discontinuance of 
 tuccavy in the course of time, like the rest of the advantages expected from the introduction 
 of the ryotwar system, has proved a mere illusion, and one of the many fanciful theories 
 of the system doomed to end in no practical result." 
 
 It often happens, when impoverished ryots absent themselves on the day of dittuni, to 
 avoid having au'ain forced upon them the occupancy of lands by which they incurred lo.ss at 
 ihe previous juinmabundy, that these lands an- forcetl by the tehsildar on one or other of 
 the ryots who an- piesent ; and when tliere is a failuie of rain for the cultivation of the 
 drv lands, which pay a lighter assessment than the wet, if the rvot shoidd have recourse 
 lo'tlie water of the tanks or reservoirs, instead of being charged the fixed water fee levied 
 on wet lands, be is compelled to pay the full assessment for a wet crop. 
 
 20. Tliat the aforesaid water fee is levied for the declared purpose of repairing the tanks 
 ai!d keeping up the usual means of irrigation ; but, notwithstanding the tax is levied for 
 this purpose, the ryots are compelled to make all the repairs required, within a certain 
 amount ; and whenever the means of irrigation is impeded, as it always is when in the monsoon 
 rains the water floods fill up the channels with sand, the ryots are (biced, luuler penalty 
 of heavy fines, to quit their agriculture in order to clear out the channels, alihough many 
 miles distant from iheir habitations, hiring labouiers to do their work in their absence, and 
 without receiving any remuneration for their labour; and the overseers of this business 
 l)eino- the Government servants, they have thus a perpetual occasion for the exercise of 
 oppression and injustice; for the tehsildar, being invested with magisterial powers, can 
 and does confine at his own cutcherry all ryots who resist his demands, and whom he 
 carries in custody along with him from place to place, as he shifts his cutcherry, until he 
 coerces ihein to obedience. 
 
 •21. That these are a few of the many grievances endured under tiie ryotwar, between 
 the settlement of the dittuin, on the 12th July, and the fixation of the kist or money 
 amount of the assessment, called jumraabundy, which takes place from the month of 
 December to that of March following, when another officer (;f the collector, called the she- 
 ristadar, or head revenue officer, aided by his subordinates, proceeds to examine the dittum, 
 and to declare the amount j)ayable by each individual ryot, according to the previous 
 settlement of the tehsildar, after having deducted the Goverinneni remissions, ou account 
 of crops that have fallen short, owing to damage from the weather or drought from at! insuf- 
 ficiency of irrigation. 
 
 22. That it is an easy thing to make this Juinmabundy an instrument of the grossest 
 tyranny, the single word of the sheristadar bein^ that which dt'termines whether there 
 shall be any remission, and how much, or none. On the wet lands, or those cultivated by 
 irrigation, no remission is permitted unless the produce has fallen short of the average to 
 the amount of ten per cent.; the ryot may then apply for a remission; but, as by the 
 Government regulations the veiifieation of the slieristadar is indispensable in order to render 
 the application successful in the ear of the collector, the sheristadar lias eveiy applicant at 
 his mercy; besides which, during the whole lime of this settlement, the collector's estab- 
 ii'hment has to be supplied with provisions by the ryots gratis. 
 
 23. That 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 * 1839-40 - - 3,82,3fi(j 
 
 1840-41 - - - - :i,Hi,'Oi 
 
 1841-42 3,51,535 
 
 184-2-43 3,53,559 
 
 1843-44 3,00,178 
 
 Average - - - - 3,52,870 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 \ 1834-35 7,10,909 
 
 1835-30 0,«7,!)30 
 
 1830-37 0,01,701 
 
 18.37-38 0,4-2,0-24 
 
 1838-89 0,44,074 
 
 Average - - - - 0,73, 57t)
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 443 
 
 •23. Tliat tiic only check upon these multitiulinous and never-ceasing oppressions, viz.. Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 ;ui iippeal to ihe superior oilicer, is the uddiiioii of mockery to misery. The lihsildar will 
 
 receive no complaint iic^ainst his int'eiiors, and when the lyot would appKiach tlie collector, 
 his petition would be sto|)ped, if possible, in its way by ihe juwabnevis, or inlerpreter ; or 
 should the petition reach its destniation, it is read to the collector by this officer, who, 
 having;" generally the oppoi'iuiiity of a previous perusal, and taking advantage of the col- 
 lector's imperfect acquaintance with the vernacular, adroitly omits the most im|)oitant pacts, 
 and foists in cpialifying huiguagi^ of his own ; but should a hearing be eventually giantcd, 
 in spite of all obstacles and trickeries, if the lyot can produce no witness, every ryot being 
 more or less afraid to come forward from dread of future ii'jury, his complaint is rejected 
 as luuvortby of credence ; and if he produces several witnesses it shares the same fate, on 
 the plea that lie has hatched a conspiracy in support of a lalsehood. Should the rvot 
 then cany his appeal to the Boiird of Revenue the complaint is transmitted to the colleclor, 
 who, in re)dv, gives the wrong to the lyot and the right to the Government seivants, and 
 in virtue of ibis reply the ryot is denied further inquiry. Sometimes, indeed, the a[)peal 
 is carried as far as the Governor in Council, and even, though very seldom, to the Court of 
 Directors. But, as the Couit sees through the eyes of Government, the Government ' 
 
 through tho^e of the Board of Revenue, the Revenue Board through those of the collector, 
 and the collector through those of his sheristadars and tehsiidars, the ryot is in every case 
 handed over to his oiiginal tyrants and tormentors, to whom he must make pecumnry 
 amends tor his fruitless attempt to obtain redress, or stand the consequences at the next 
 arrangement of the dittum and jummabundy, by the very Government ofBcers from wliose 
 vexatious e.xactions it was pretended to set him free, by the introduction of the rvotwar 
 system. 
 
 24. That the jummabundy having thus finally determined by the end of March the 
 amount payable by each ryot, he is bound to liquidate it prior to the ensning month of 
 July, the peiiod for the settlement of the next dittum ; and, ;is the three intervening months 
 are precisely those in wbnh the ])rice of grain is at the lowest, in consequence of tiie recent 
 harvtst, he ha> to undergo a third series of losses and misfortunes, from the circumstance of 
 his being compelled, within that time, to turn so much of his crop into ready ntoircy ;:s will 
 suffice to realise the sum specified for the Government kist. 
 
 25. That, although this space of tliree months is nominally allowed for the realization of 
 the kist, still the tehsiUiar, with whom the collection rests, is verv anxious to obtain the 
 instalments as early as p(.ssible, in order thai he may at once preserve the good opinion of 
 the collector, and avoid the fine to which he is liable, shmild not the whole or the greater 
 part be liquidated before the period of limitation has expired; and accordingly he is con- 
 stantly urging the ryot to dispose of his crop, which he has been permitted 10 reap, on 
 giving security to the village officer that the money shall be paid, and liquidate, if not the 
 whole, at least a part of the amount; this urgini^ comprehending the sending for the ryot, 
 and confining him in the cutcherry until he shall have undertaken, in presence of witnesses, 
 to pay a stipulated instalment on a certain day, by which the ryoc, in addiiion to the loss 
 he sustains by being detained from his labour [jerhaps a week or ten days at a time, is 
 forced to part with so much of his crop, whether cut or standing, for any price which the 
 nearest grain merchant, taking advantage of his pressing necessity, chooses to offer. And 
 this process of urging on the pan of the tehsildar, and of sacrificing his property on the 
 part of the ryot, continues till perhaps, lor the occurrence is not unfrequeut, the disposal 
 of the entile crop failing to raise tiie money payment of the amount due to Hie State, the 
 poor ryot has to sell his bullocks, his farming utensils, and the liitle rest of his properly in 
 order to make up the deficiency. 
 
 26. That in order to possess your Honourable House with some idea of the criKhics 
 under which the ryotwar system can be, and actually is, exercised by the Goveriiment 
 servants, your petitioners will quote an instance occurring in the year 1851, when certain 
 ryots in the zillah or coUectoiate ot Guntoor, unable to obtain ledress fiom the colhctor, 
 the commissioner, and the Board of Revenue, presenteil a petition to the Governor in. 
 Council, to the following effect: — That at the dittum settlement of the ])ievioiis year, on 
 their refusal to accept the dittum offered 10 them by the telisildars of si\ diffeieul lalnoks, 
 because it included lands that had been relinquished, and others which were not liable to 
 assessment; and because the lands bearing assessment weie then re-measured with new 
 ropes, shorter by one cubit than the legal measure, some of them were compelled, by im- 
 prisonment and corpoial punishment of v:aious kinds, to put their names to the dittums; 
 and wliea others ran away from their talooks to avoid the like treatment, the cnrmmis of 
 the villages forced the names of those who had absconded to the dittum^, that were assiiined 
 to them ; ihey who remained complained to the collector, who said the dittums shoula not 
 be altered, and refused redress; and when the jummabundy came round, on their refusal to 
 pay the excess of the assessment, the houses of the ryots were stripped of their loofs, their 
 ploughs, ploughing cattle, grain seed, and forage for their grazing cattle were seized bv 
 attachment and sold by auction. Some ryots were arrested as security for the balance still 
 unpaid from the proceeds of the auction; the houses of otljcrs were liroken into and pliiii- 
 deied by the peons, who were paid batta from the proceeds of the sales; their herd cattle 
 were not permitted to graze, and their families prohibited taking water from the tanks and 
 wells for domestic purposes. Their petition to the Governor in Council was transmitted to 
 the collector in the usual way, when that officer applied for two years' leave of absence, 
 
 0.10. ' 3 L and
 
 444 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. and there the matter rests to this day; and, although your petitioners confine themselves 
 
 to a single and recent example, they do noi scruple 10 assert that, in a greater or less 
 
 degree, these practices are prevalent throughout every division of the presidency. 
 
 27. That while such are the evils of ihe ryotwar, as respects the state and condition of 
 the people, it entails no small share of evil upon the government, from the lars;e establish- 
 ment which has to be entertained for the collection of the revenue; on which point your 
 petitioners beg to solicit the notice of your honourable House to the description given by 
 Sir T. V. Stonhousc, in the work to which they have already referred. 
 
 "The cause of the heavy charges of nianagemeul under the rvotwar system, is its 
 endless and varied dttads, requiring a multiplicity of levi^nue officers in the talooks to keep 
 the accounts, and so on througii every gradation of office, from the tahsildar to the Board 
 of Revenue. I do not hesitate to say th;it at the very lowest, one-third ot the public expen- 
 diture now incurred in maintaining the ryotwar system would be saved, under a village 
 lease or Aumany settlement, and more especially the est:il)lishmt'nt of a native board of 
 revenue would be saved. 1 do not mean 10 affirm that this establishment is necessary 
 even for ryotwar management, for I do not believe it to be so, and the Board of Revenue 
 conducted its duties as efficiently before its creation. With practical revenue officers as 
 members of the Board of Revenue it cannot be required, and its expense is not confined to 
 itself, as the Sheristadur cannot be su|iposed to know the language "f all district servants 
 who are entertained in the several collectorates to render the accounis into Mahratta, that 
 they may be intelligible to the Boar<l's Sheristadar, his deputy, and establishmenr. The 
 formation of this unhealthy excrescence on thi^ charges collection of this presidency by 
 SirT. Munro, would have looked better, had not his old and favourite ceded district servant 
 been selected by him to fill the principal offices created by it. The chaiges collection of 
 tliis presidency have increased on an average from 12 to 15 lakhs of rupees per annum, 
 since the introduction of the Ryoiwai- system, and the difi'erence would have been still 
 larger, bu'. for the abolition of the principal collettorships, and other reductions made in 
 late years in the s.daries of collectors, and of their establishments, the effect of which has 
 bt-en to leave the latter inefficient and insufficient to carry on satisfactorily a system of 
 revenue management so complicated and detailed as that of the ryotwar. 
 
 "During ihe decennial rents, or from 1809-10 to 1819-20, the charges collection for the 
 year amounted on an average in round numbers to 25,70,000 rupees. The charges for 
 each year are exhibited in the margin.* The charges collection since thai peiiod, or from 
 1820-21 to 1843-44, a period of 24 years, have averaged ."IB, 49,000, exhiliiting an average 
 excess of annual charge compared with the former period of 12,73,000 rupees, but the 
 average of a similar period of 11 years, or from 1830-34 to 1843-44, is 40,74,000, and 
 gives an excess annual charge of 14,98,000 rupees, or nearly 15 lakhs of rupees. The 
 charges collection in each year exhibited in the margin.t " 
 
 " If there are advantages therefore in the ryotwar system, the Government pays dearly 
 for them. It might b. fitting a great and enlightened Government to make such sacrifices 
 for real and admitted benefits ; but, so far from being admitted, they have from first to last 
 been questioned, the system denounced as vicious by many of the ablest revenue officers of 
 the Government, and their existence in no way substantiated even by the advocates of 
 Ryotwar, or by practical results. 
 
 " It is not on the score merely of an expensive establishment that the ryotwar system 
 proves so heavy a drag on the finances of the Government. Theie is further expense 
 inherent in it, from which other systems are comparatively free, viz., charges for the reoairs 
 
 of 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 * 1809-10 24,18,074 
 
 1810-n 2.3,76,847 
 
 1811-12 21,11,354 
 
 1812-13 26,63,864 
 
 1813-14 - - 23,08,741 
 
 1814-16 ....-.--- 24,34,426 
 
 1815-16 24,41,683 
 
 1816-17 26,46,143 
 
 1817-18 27,40,360 
 
 1818-19 29,21, 152 
 
 1819-20 28,88,462 
 
 Cu.'s Rupees. 
 
 -f 183.3-34 37,70,3ol 
 
 1834-35 39,30,127 
 
 1830-36 40,33,118 
 
 1836-37 - - 40,32,928 
 
 1837-38 41,31,461 
 
 18.38-39 41,37,519 
 
 1839-40 41,64,394 
 
 1840-41 41,4.3,481 
 
 1841-42 40,9:2.919 
 
 1842-43 41,37,218 
 
 184a-44 42,45,247
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDfAN TERRITORIES. 445 
 
 of tanks ant) other sources of irrigation. Tills is a heavy annual chain upon the revenue of Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 the country, and much of it, owing to the defectiveness of local check and su|)ervision, 
 
 unprofitably spent, or ratiier not spent at all, but which finds its way into the |)0ckets of 
 ihe public soMvants. Even so far b;ick as 18-28, the Court of Directors noticed the heavy 
 charge it occasioned on the finances of the country, and observed that, although they were 
 far from entertaining a wish that anything necessary for so desirable an object as the 
 irrigation ol the country shonld be wiililieid, it was of high impoitance that these chaiii-es 
 should be under the stiictest control, and be distinctly brought to their notice at the periods 
 of their necessary occurrence. The amount expended on (his account from 180.5-OG to 
 1843-44 has been upwards of 243 lakhs of rupees, and the average expenditure of the last 
 five years has been upwards of six lakhs.* 
 
 " Under a zemindary settlement the Government is relieved from tiiis heavy annual 
 expense, and under a village settlement is relieved of a great portion of it ; for, under a 
 Tillage rent fixed on the low scale arlopied for a Ryotwar settiemeiii, there would be no 
 necessity for the Government to undertake or be responsible for repairs beyond those of 
 masonry works. All earthwork to bunds of tanks and the clearing of channels should 
 devolve upon the villagers, wh<i would do it much more effectually in tiieir own way, and at 
 not a third of the aniouni disbursed by Govemment on such works. Such a measure would 
 only be a return to the usage of the country. Another disadvantage of this system, of 
 throwing the whole expense of tank, «kc. repairs oii the Government, is that it forces 
 cultivation and militates against that principle of the ryotwar system whicli leaves the 
 cultivator at liberty to cultivate as much or as little as he pleases. This is a fundamental Minute, 5 January 
 rule ot the ryotwar system. 'It must be clearly understood,' say the Board, 'that the 1S18. 
 revenue is to continue as at present, subordinate to justice; that freedom of labour to the 
 Ryots is, by the Court of Directors themselves, declared to be the basis of the new settle- 
 ment ; and that, therefore, no restraint whatever, inconsistent with it, can be imposed upon 
 them.' The same principle was also cleaily prescribed by Sir T. Munro himself during his 
 government. ' The ryots should be allowed to cultivate as mucii or as liiile as they please : From Government, 
 they will always occupy as much land as they can cultivate profitably, and it is not the S September 1820, to 
 interest of Government that they should cultivate more.' ' Board of Revenue. 
 
 "Every revenue officer knows that, if this ride were observed, the Government would 
 scarcely receive half the revenue it now does. If ryots were allowed to culiivate as much 
 or as little as they please, or, to use the language of Government, those lands only which 
 they could cultivate profitably, a very large portion of the land now under the plough 
 would be thrown up. In practice it is altogether different, and, whatever impressions may 
 be entertained by the Board of Revenue, the Government, or the home authorities, the truth 
 is, that cidlivation is forced all over the country. The tahsildars, in spite of rules and 
 regulations, will not allow of the relinquishment of lands, for this reason, that, as tahsildar, 
 it is his endeavour, for his own credit and character, to bolster up the revenue of his talook. 
 I say that cultivation is forced all over the country, and it is right that it should be so, to 
 a certain extent, with reference to lands dependent on sources of irrigation, for the preser- 
 vation of which the Government incurs an aimual heavy expense. It was a principle laid 
 down by Sir T. Munro himself, and how he reconciled it in his own mind with his principle 
 of an entire freedom of occupancy, and with the privilege he accorded to the lyot of 
 cultivating as much or as little as he pleased, I am unable to discover. In his Minute of 
 the 31st December 1824, Sir T. Munro declares that ' Government, by the construction of 
 tanks and watercourses, supplies the water, which is the chief article of expense in wet 
 cultivation, and has a right to see that the lands on account of which it has incurred so 
 heavy a charge are not, without necessity, left uncultivated or exempted from their share of 
 the public burthens.'" 
 
 28. That, at the same time, the system can boast no superior excellence as affecting the 
 improvement of the revenue, as is apparent from the annexed quotation, taken from the 
 same work : 
 
 « The 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 * 1839-40 6,52,877 
 
 1840-41 7,11,163 
 
 1841-42 6,10,184 
 
 1842-43 5,32,819 
 
 1843-44 5,10,558 
 
 Average - - - - 6,03,520 
 
 0.10. 3 L 2
 
 446 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Report, 15 August 
 1807 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. " The marginal statement* exhibits the land revenue of Madras from 18-20, from which 
 
 time ihe ryotwar has been generally the mode of settlement up to 1844. The average of the 
 
 first six vears is 331,98,78!! rupees ; of the next six years, 311,53,725 rupees ; of the next six 
 years, 304, -24, 093 rupees; andoftlie last six years, 330,51,584 rupees. During the second six 
 years tlie average fell below the prececlins six about 20 laklis of rupees ; during the next six it 
 experienced a furiher fall of about 7 lakhs, and, though the average revenue of the last six 
 shews an increase of about '26 htkhs over the preceding six years, it is still below the 
 avera:re of the first six years. During the last si\' years there has been a succession of 
 most favourable seasons and abundant produce, and hence the exceeding low |uice ol strain 
 which lias been so much lelt all over the country for the last four or five years. These 
 results, hiiwever, go to prove conclusively that the rvotwar system is not calculated to 
 improve the revenue. The laiul revenue of Bellary and Cuddapah since 1820 is exhibited 
 in the margin, and it will be seen if there has been much improvement even there. 
 
 " Sir T. Munro has stated that, under a ryotwar settlement, the annual fluctuations in 
 the amount of revenue will never be so great as to cause any serious inconvenience. It 
 would never in aiiy one year exceed 10 per cent, in an au:gregate of six or eight collectoiates, 
 though it iniijht he more in a single one. It would gradually diminish as the ryots became 
 proprietors, and would in 10 or 12 years scarcely ever be above 5 |)cr cent. 
 
 " Now, a ghiiice at the niarginal statement will demonstrate whether Sir T. Miniro's 
 expectations can in any degree be considered to have been realised, even with his low 
 assessment of the government tax, being only, as in the zamind;iry settlemeut, one-third of 
 the gross produce. In Bellary, we find the revenue in 1827 falling neatly four lakhs of 
 rupees below the preceding year; in 1833 we find it falling lluee lakhs below that of the 
 preceding year ; and even as recently as 1838, falling nearly four and a-half lakhs of rupees 
 belosv the revenue of the preceding year, or from 20 to 25 per cent, in Cuddapah we 
 find it in 1832 failing five lakhs, or to rupees 13.^ lakhs, l"rom 18,80,000 which it had been 
 in the ])revious year. The total revenue ol Bellary, tor the first 12 years of the period 
 embraced in the marginal statement <;iven above, was, in round numbers, 257,83,000; in 
 the last 12 years, 255,01,000; or adiminution of 2,82,000. So much for imjjrovement and 
 an augmented revenue from the waste lands ! In Cuddapah the results have been still 
 more unfavourable. The t'ltal land revenue received from that district during the first 12 
 years of the period indicated was, in round numbers, 230,71,000 ; in the last 12 years 
 230,68,000, or a diminished amount of six lakhs. View the ryotwar in any way we 
 please, either in regard to its principles or 10 its fiscal results, I can discover nothing to 
 recommend it but the statements of Sir T. Munro ; I cannot discover any of those beneficial 
 results which he expected would flow from its adoption, but, on the contrary, much evil, 
 and, not the least, the destruction of the village constitutions. But the Court of Directors 
 seem to think that it has been successful in Coimbatore. ' As we entertain a KmU opi- 
 23 May 1827. nion,' the Court say, in a revenue despatch, to the Bombay Government, ' of the ryotwar 
 
 settlement, which has been successfully intioduced into the province of Coimbatore, we 
 desire that you will obtain from the Government of Fori St. George information respecting 
 the nature and principles of that settlement, with the view of introducing similar arrange 
 nunts in all practicable casis into the pioviiices under your presidency.' Even in Coim- 
 batore 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 Bellary. 
 
 Cuddapah. 
 
 • 1820 
 
 328,63,353 
 
 18-20 
 
 22,78,817 
 
 23,62,350 
 
 18'2I 
 
 3-2o,88,260 
 
 1821 
 
 •24,16,166 
 
 21,33,612 
 
 18-2-2 
 
 339,78,987 
 
 18-22 
 
 -23,81,179 
 
 2-2,1-3,651 
 
 18-23 
 
 311,14,471 
 
 18-23 
 
 19,68,642 
 
 17,43,159 
 
 18-24 
 
 351,35,829 
 
 18-24 
 
 21,73,i)'23 
 
 19,28,795 
 
 18-25 
 
 335,11,8-24 
 
 1825 
 
 22,74,787 
 
 19,02,645 
 
 1826 
 
 324,09,795 
 
 18-26 
 
 22,-52,552 
 
 -20,-25,103 
 
 1«27 
 
 .308,12,258 
 
 18-27 
 
 18,90,-391 
 
 17,99,465 
 
 1828 
 
 319,02,757 
 
 18-28 
 
 21,93,984 
 
 18,48,984 
 
 1829 
 
 309,32,388 
 
 1829 
 
 10,31,005 
 
 18,42,840 
 
 1830 
 
 308,66,127 
 
 1830 
 
 •20,15,-3-52 
 
 19,-30,602 
 
 1831 
 
 299.39,024 
 
 1831 
 
 20,05,976 
 
 18,80,170 
 
 1832 
 
 '266,06,577 
 
 1832 
 
 16,97,026 
 
 13.51,213 
 
 1833 
 
 31-2,92,9-25 
 
 18.33 
 
 20,93,708 
 
 18,.50,45K 
 
 1634 
 
 314,60,4.50 
 
 1834 
 
 '20.41,783 
 
 19,14,051 
 
 183.5 
 
 31I,,53,.'567 
 
 1835 
 
 2 1,21, '240 
 
 18,98,381 
 
 18.30 
 
 -295,59,089 
 
 1836 
 
 '20,?*7,l'27 
 
 18,61,483 
 
 1837 
 
 .324,72,(153 
 
 18.37 ... 
 
 2'2,45,.300 
 
 20,76,367 
 
 1838 
 
 315,67,380 
 
 1m:1K 
 
 17,9-2,1.89 
 
 17,'27,560 
 
 1839 
 
 3.35,6fi,(!99 
 
 18.39 
 
 22,64,346 
 
 2 1 ,23,602 
 
 1840 
 
 3-26,01), 1 70 
 
 1840 
 
 21,88,897 
 
 20.22,-382 
 
 1841 
 
 323,03,013 
 
 1K4I 
 
 23,25,823 
 
 21,10,208 
 
 1842 
 
 3-29,75,129 
 
 1842 
 
 -23,10,960 
 
 2(»,7-3,.56o 
 
 1843 
 
 35-2,97,108 
 
 lMf3 
 
 22,70,961 
 
 20,50,678
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOUIES. 
 
 447 
 
 Appendix, No. 
 
 Iiatoie it would be seen from the mai<iinal statement * that tliere lias been letrosiression, 
 not imiiroveiiU'iU, in tlie land revenue. The Ho^re^ate revenue for the first 12 years wasr 
 •JOT, !»(■>, 000 rupees ; (or tiie last 1'2 yens, '241,81,000 rupees; or a diminished aninmit of 
 revenue in the latter jieiiod of 'JC! lakhs of rupees. The advocates of ivotwar can hardly 
 tlnTefore, I think, ground their predilections in favour of tiie system on the score of its 
 tendency to auiiment and impriivethe revenue when sucii have lieen the results in the most 
 favoured districts ; and, as regards fluctuations, I find that even in Coimbatore the revenue 
 fell in one year nearly six laklis of rupees; namely, from 20,07,000 rupees, which it was in 
 1830, to 1.>,1 1,000, the amount of tile land reventic of 183()." And aijain, " Let us look 
 now to the revenue of those districis where there has been little or no ryotwai, Tanjore, for 
 insiance, which has been under the woluny;oo or villaoe settlement of Mr. Cotton. 
 
 "In the marf;in f is exiidjited the land revenue collections of this district in each year. 
 The total aiiiouni for tiie tirst 12 years was 39.5,43,o24 rupees, while for the last 12 years it 
 was 313,76,385, or an increased receipt of upwards of 18 lakhs in the latter period. So 
 far, therefore, as improved revenue is a consideration, the comparison, it must be confessed, 
 is in favour of the village settlement. 
 
 " It may be said that, although tiie revenue has not improved undei' ryotwar, the circiiiu- 
 stances of the ryots have. I have always been led to suppose that improvement in the 
 ieveniie went hand in hand with improvement in the circumstances of the ryots, but here 
 we find increase of substance in the cultivating community coupled with diminished 
 revenue. If the ryots of Bellai v and Cuddapah had really improved in their circimi- 
 stances, how could the great fluctuations whicli it has been shown have occurred iri the 
 annual revenue, take place? Whence the necessity of the huge advances of tuccavy, 
 which are ninv annuallv made in these districts.' These are f.dr deductions from general 
 principles. Tlieie is, however, more positive testimony as to the real state of some of the 
 districts. In Salem, where the ryotwar \\as first introduced, we find the collector stating 
 in 1833, that the ryots were so poor as to be living from hand to mouth. We find the 
 collector of Trichinopoly, in 1831, stating that in a district so long under the Company's 
 management as Trichinopoly, with a very extensive market in the neighbourhood, it would 
 have been natural to suppose that a large portion of the soil would have been under tillage, but 
 that the reverse was the fact, and tliat of the dry lands in thiee out of four dry talooks, 
 nut more than one acre in ten was cultivated. We find even Mr. Sullivan, on quitting 
 Coimbaiore, in his Report of the 20th January 1830, stating that ai the time of the survey, 
 a tract of country which yielded an annual revenue of nearly a lakh of rupees, was then 
 (when he wrote) in the possession of elephants. 
 
 "The only province which may perhaps be taken as the most successful application of renewal of the 
 the ryotwar settlement, and of field assessments, is Travancore. The land tax is there *-'''"'^''t''r m 'S*^"-- 
 fixed, and is based upon a revenue survey, but a fresli survey is made every 10 or 12 years, 
 in which alterations are inserted according to the lands brought into cultivation, or those 
 thrown up. The periodical surveys are stated to have been the established habit of the 
 native government. The original survey comprehended the whole country, waste and 
 cultivated. The occasional service included the cultivated lands only. Every field, with 
 its rent, was inserted in the survey, with its proprietor, and it vvas entirely a ryotwar settle- 
 ment. The mode of determining the field as-essment seems to have been, to fix it at 
 certain ratios of produce to the quantity of seeds sowable, which were determined by the 
 quality of the soil. 
 
 "The partial success, however, of the ryotwar system in Travancore. may be accounted 
 lor; it has existed from ancient times, and is the established usage of the province ; the 
 
 land 
 
 Eviilence of Color.f! 
 John MunrOjOi: tin 
 
 1820 
 1821 
 1822 
 lt<23 
 1824 
 1825 
 182G 
 1827 
 1828 
 182il 
 1830 
 1831 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 - 21 ,.57,920 
 
 - 21,47,0.50 
 
 - 22,31,743 
 
 - 21,63,482 
 
 - 22,65,357 
 
 - 22,98,89.5 
 
 - 2.3,12,456 
 
 - 23,03,090 
 
 - 22,76,129 
 
 - 22,50,841 
 
 - 22,46,761 
 
 - 21,30,592 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 1832 20,87,804 
 
 1833 19,35,.357 
 
 1834 - - - - - - 20,64,073 
 
 18.35 -.--.- 20,97,729 
 
 1836 15,11,803 
 
 1837 20,10,742 
 
 1838 20,08,480 
 
 1839 19.79,928 
 
 1840 20.08,629 
 
 1841 21,18,769 
 
 1842 21,52,7.53 
 
 1843 21,85,072 
 
 Co.'s Rupees. 
 
 -> 1820 ---... 29,22,193 
 
 1821 30,26,436 
 
 1822 33,09,593 
 
 1823 38,80,406 
 
 1824 49,27,489 
 
 1825 3.3,67,608 
 
 1826 27,64,922 
 
 1827 23,48,-588 
 
 1828 33,42,204 
 
 1829 .32,15,294 
 
 1830 32,40,773 
 
 1831 31,97,958 
 
 0.10. 3 
 
 Ci'.'s Rupees. 
 
 1832 37,21,950 
 
 18.33 36,43,032 
 
 1834 34,.39,033 
 
 1835 32,54,176 
 
 1830 33,81,-321 
 
 1837 35,10,303 
 
 1838 35,68,768 
 
 1839 35,6(!,447' 
 
 1840 - 3.3,74,098 
 
 1841 28,94,782 
 
 1842 35,36,942 
 
 1843 - - - - - - 34,94,934
 
 448 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Aiii>tiulix, No. 7.' 
 
 land assessment is extremely low, the district has many valuable productions, as pepper, 
 betel cardamoms, and teak wood, and I believe ihe real cause of its success is the revision 
 of the survey, which lakes place every 10 or 12 years, in direct opposition to Sir T. Munro's 
 principle of declaring the survey assessment permanent. But even in Travancore, it did 
 notaft'ord tiiat protection to the ryot which is staled to be one of its chief advantages." 
 
 On which your petitioners beg to remark that Travancore is not a collectorate under the 
 Company, but a tributary state, having a Maharajah, and its own government, to which an 
 English resident is attached. 
 
 2J>. That havino- thus explained the operations of the ryotwar, your petitioners proceed 
 to the zainindary system, wliich still obtains to a great extent in the three districts of 
 Ganjam, Vizagapatam, and Masulipatam, and in some few parts of the 17 ryotwar coUec- 
 torates • where it places the cultivators in a condiiion not materially better than the 
 ryotwar. A few of these zaniindaries existed prior to the occupation of the districts by 
 the British • but the larger part are of more recent creation, in which their possessors occupy 
 the position of farmers of the revenue ; of which they are to pay a sum nominally esti- 
 mated at 35 per cent, to the Government, take 15 per cent, as their own share, and leave 
 the remaining 50 percent, to ilie cnliivator ; the estimated 35 per cent, is, however, fixed 
 at a certain permanent sum, the amount of which can never be varied by either the Govern- 
 ment or ihe zamindar; it must be paid in money, without remission of any kind, to the 
 zamindar for bad seasons, and without any demand upon him for an increase in the culti- 
 vation • the cultivators, on the other hand, aie to pay the zamindar in kind, and he is to 
 grant them the same remissions which are granted to the ryots of the Government. 
 
 30. That the half share of the produce due to the zamindar is subject to no charges for 
 cultivation, the whole of which fall upon the cultivator; who has likewise to pay durbary 
 and other expenses, best explained by the following statement, adapted to the collectorate 
 of Masulipatam, and extracted from a Report by Mr. Russell, the collector of the district, 
 dated the 20th March 1819, and to be founil in the Appendix to the Report from the 
 Select Committee, in the year 1832 : — 
 
 "A ryot who has two ploughs will cultivate one cutty of mettah or dry land ; and that 
 extent of ordinary soil, in a favourable year, will produce 4 p. 10 t. of jonnaloo, and other 
 grains and pulse. 
 
 " Value of 4 p. 10 t., at 22 Madras rupees per pootty, which is a high 
 computation, since it is reckoning the whole produce at the same 
 rate as jonnaloo* --------- 
 
 Deduct Circar share - - - 
 
 Deduct durbary charges on 4 pootties 10 tooms, at 2 Madras 
 
 rupees per pooty - - - - - - -900 
 
 Ditto Nuzzer cuttoy, &c., at 3 Madras rupees per cent. - 1 8 
 Batta to Mahasooldars, Anchanadars, Sec, at 16 per cent. - 8 
 
 Remains to the Ryot - - - 
 Deduct charges of cultivation: — 
 
 Value of 2 J tooms of seed grain - - - - -300 
 Subsistence to two slaves for six months, at 1 seer of jon- 
 naloo per diem - - - - - - -10 12 
 
 Two Cumbalies 100 
 
 Charges incidental to the replacing of cattle, one year with 
 
 another - - - - - - - - -600 
 
 Wear and tear of ploughs, &c. - - - - -0 8 
 
 Balance in favour of the Ryot 
 
 M. Ra. a. p. 
 
 99 
 
 49 8 
 
 18 8 
 
 31 
 
 21 4 
 
 9 12 
 
 and 
 
 In paddy lands two ploughs are not equal to the culture of more t 
 eight pootties are a good crop for that extent of land, in a favourable 
 
 culture of more than lOj veesums, 
 season. 
 
 Crop 
 
 * This is the aTcrage price of jonnaloo.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 449 
 
 " Crop eight pootties, value, at "20 Madras rupees per pootty - 
 
 Deduct Circar portion - 
 
 Ryot's sliare - - - 
 
 Deduct durbiiry charges, at li rupees per poolty - 12 
 
 Nuzzar cuttoy, Sic, at 3 per cent. - - - - 2 fi 6 
 
 Mahasooioars, &c., charges, at 1(5 per cent. - - - 12 12 6 
 
 Total deductions 
 
 Remains to the Ryot 
 
 Deduct charges of cultivation; — 
 Four tooms of :?eed grain, at 20 Madras rupees per pootty 
 Subsistence of two slaves for six months, at two Seers of 
 
 paddy each per diem, 18 ts. value thereof, at 20 
 
 Madras rupees per pootty - _ _ _ _ 
 
 Two Cambalies -------- 
 
 127 planter.-;, at the average rate of 30 men for every 
 
 toom sown ---____. 
 Charges incidental to the replacing of buffaloes,* one 
 
 year with anotlier - - _ _ _ 
 Wear and tear of ploughs, &c. - - - - 
 
 iM. lis. 
 
 a. 
 
 f 
 
 IGO 
 
 
 
 
 
 «0 
 
 
 
 
 
 Appendix, No. y, 
 
 80 
 
 27 a 
 
 52 12 
 
 4 
 
 18 
 
 10 
 
 10 8 
 
 8 
 
 10 
 
 Remains to the Ryot 
 
 42 8 
 
 10 
 
 " 34. As the fees which the ryot receives at the ihreshing-floor are given to his slaves, 
 and constitute their means of support during a part of the year, I have calculated their 
 subsistence for six months only, and for the same reason I have omiited to mclude these 
 items among the receipts of the ryot. 
 
 " 35. The principles by which I have been guided in estimating the charges incidental to 
 cultivation, were not dictated by any specuhitive opinions of my own, but were deduced 
 from a careful examination of original accounts, obtained from various sources, where I have 
 no reason to suspect deceit, because there could be no motive tor deceiving me. It may, 
 however, be satisfactory to inquire how far the results regarding the charges for bullocks, 
 &c., may tally with others prepared according to the plan observed in "Mr. Colebrook's 
 Husbandry of Bengal. That gentleman calculates interest at two per cent, per mensem 
 on the money laid out in the purchase of cattle and ploughs, and considers thai allowance 
 to cover the expense of replacing casualties. 
 
 " 36. In the foregoing accounts I have reckoned the ryot to have two ploughs and four 
 oxen in a dry-grain village, or four buffaloes in one where paddy is cultivated." 
 
 " MiiTTAH Land. 
 
 " The price of a bullock, at a low computation, must be taken at 12 Madras rupees, and 
 -of a plough and othtr implements ot husbandry at 1 Madras rupee 1 anna. 
 
 " Four bullocks, tiierefore, must be considered to cost the ryot 
 " And two ploughs, &c. ----_._ 
 
 " The value of his stock then is - - - 
 
 M. Ks. a. 
 
 48 
 2 2 
 
 P- 
 
 
 
 50 2 
 
 " And the interest on the sum for 12 months, at the rate of two per cent, per mensem, 
 Madras rupees 12, or nearly double any former calculation. 
 
 " Low Land. 
 
 " Eight Madras rupees is the usual price for a ploughing buffalo. 
 
 " Four, therefore, must be reckoned lo cost - - - 
 " And two ploughs, Sic. ------ 
 
 Total amount of stock - - 
 
 M.Rt. 
 
 a. 
 
 t>- 
 
 32 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 34 
 
 
 
 
 
 " Interest on 34 Madras rupees, at two per cent, per month, 8;'. 3«., or 13 annas less 
 than my estimate. 
 
 "If 
 
 * Buffaloes are much shorter-lived animals than bullocks, and in the end more expensive ; but they 
 do their work better in this sort of cultivation. 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3 1^4
 
 450 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7, " It' it be adniitttd th;it those statements are conect, it follows that the mere profits 
 
 of Imsbandrv must, under this system, be inadequate to the maintenance of the lyot's 
 
 family. 
 
 " 37. We will juppose, for example, that the family coni-ists of five persons, which I take 
 it is the usual averase, and that it is composed of the ryot, his wife, two children, and a 
 female relaiion. 
 
 " The daily consumption of grain cannot be estimated at less than fom- seers. One pootty 
 and a half, therefore, must be allowed lor ihe expenditme of the year ; and, as that quantity 
 ol jonnaloo even will cost 33 Maih-as rupees, it is obvious that the mere ai title nf urain 
 alone will amount to more than the surplus which now remains to the ryot. Such is, in 
 liict, the real result of the system. The plough iiself affords little towards his support, and 
 were it not that it uivcs him the valuable right of pasture for his cattle and ground for his 
 pumpkins, he could not subsist. A single she buffalo will yield him eight rupet s per annum 
 in ghte alone, and the profit iie derives hom this source, added 10 the labours of ins women, 
 enable hiin to procuie the necessaries of life ; but even these aids will not always afford 
 him the mians of subsistence, and for two or tiuee nnmths of the year the fruit from his 
 pumpkin garden, mixed up with buttermilk, or a very small proportion of meat, is the daily 
 diet of his family. 
 
 " 38. Under tiiese circumstances, the indigence we find so prevalent among the agricul- 
 tural classes, and the distrust which exi^ts between them and the zamindars, cannot be a 
 matter of surprise. Deprived as they are of the fair return of their industry, it cannot be 
 expected that they will omit to avail themselves of any opportunity that may offer 10 piUer 
 the grain while it remains on the ground, and hence arises the necessity for the ])rtcaution.s 
 which the landlord is obliged to resort to. 
 
 • 
 
 " 3t». It may, periiaps, be said that the introduction of village rents would improve the 
 
 condition of the peasantry by relieving them from the ruinous expenses attending the present 
 system of espionage, and so in fact it would, if the zamindars would found their assess- 
 ments on a moderate scale, and the distrust which has lor ages existed between them and 
 the ryots could be converted into mutual confidence : hut as long as the demand of the 
 Circar shall remain at its present standard; as long as the ' durlmry kurchooloo' shall be 
 ^■on^idered to be a lawful branch of revenue; as long as the collections actually realised 
 under the several heads, which have heretofore been customary, shall be looked upon as the 
 jnoper basis for future assessment; as long, in fact, as tlie demand of the landlord shall 
 absorb the just profits oi the cultivator, so long will it be in vain to expect any confidence 
 between them; so long will the demand of the year depend on the actual harvest, and all 
 engagements continue nominal; and so long will there be a positive necessity for the 
 zamindarto guard against the clandestine removal of his crops. 
 
 " 40. At present all engagements are nugatory. The rents are so high that it is impos- 
 sible to realise them, unless the crops prove more than usually favourable. The annual 
 demand of the zamindar, therefore, still fluctuates with the seasons; and as he knows the 
 ryots will do all in their power to deceive him, he is obliged to ascertain their actual 
 resources by iiiCans of appraisers, and the seltlemtnt is in effect concluded in the same way 
 as if no agreement existed." 
 
 31. That without dilating upon the vexations innumerable occurring under the zatnimlary 
 system, complaints of which are referable to the collector, your petitioners will merely point 
 out that by it the ryot's nominal share of one-half the produce is actually reduced to one- 
 fifth of the half on dry lands, and to one-eighth on wet or paddy lands, yielding as tht; 
 annual return for his agricultural labc;ur -20 rupees and 1 anna, an amount quite insufficient 
 to procure grain for himself and family ; putting aside clothing, salt, and vegetables, and the 
 expenses of religious ceremonies at births, marriages, and deaths, all which he has to procure 
 as best he mayrfiom the milk of his herd cows or buffaloes, and the labours of the female 
 members of his family. 
 
 32. That although the Minute of the Board of Revenue, to which your petitioners have 
 refeired, states that " the situation of a zemindary ryot is considered by many as superior 
 to most of those placed immediately under collectors and their native officers," it is still 
 more miserable at this time than it was at the date of Mr. Russell's Report ; and, as the 
 zamindarships are heieditary, and cannot lapse to Governairnt except for failure in the 
 payment of the Peishcash, or permanent rent; your petiiioiurs represent the luqieiative 
 necessity for definite and efiective regulations to retain the zammdar fioin the continual 
 practice of oppressive extortions, in taking away the best lands Irom their original holders, 
 for the purpose of bestowing them on hTs own relations and favourites, coinpelliiig the 
 ryots to cultivate such hauls without payment ; and obliging the ryots to buy tlit zauiin- 
 dar's grain at prices far above the market value ; as lil;e«ise for granting greaier facilities 
 to the ryots tor prefcinnu their giievances, and for the due and early inquiry into and 
 settlement of them by the collectors, instead of their being, as they are now, obliged to 
 enter into an expensive litigation in the civil courts of the Ciovernmeiit, notwithstanding the 
 existing regulations that summary justice shall be afl'orded them by the collector. 
 
 VillaTe system, '■^'^- T'lat, as the ryotwar system prevailing in 17-20ths of the whole presidency is 
 
 always the substituiion for the zamindary when lapses occur by the failure of Peisli- 
 cash, your petitioners earnestly pray that, as there can be no obstacle either of hereditary 
 
 ri<iht^
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEilRITORIES. 451 
 
 right, vested interests, or any otlicr, to |iievent its suninuuy :ui(l total aliolition, the ancient Appendix, No.-. 
 
 system vvhicii obtained in the country, prior to its !.idjjusiation bv the JMuhotnedans, may 
 
 be auaiii reverted to; viz., the viHa^e svtcni, or the collection of tiie revenue from the 
 land by means of villn;j,es instond oi individuals, without the inierference of zamiiidars or 
 niiddlcmen on one hand, and Iree (Vom (he harassing o]5pressions of Government servants 
 on the otiier. This system your petitioners beg- to state has been tried by the Madras 
 government, in what was calu d the Triennial and Decennial Settlements, alluded to in the 
 tormer part of this petition, rcnarding which the Minute of the Board of Revenue before 
 mentioned states : — 
 
 " 280. It differed from the ryotwar chiefly in the assessment beina fixed on the entire 
 aorurCjiato lands of the village, not on each distinct and separate field; in its being concluded 
 with all the ryots collectively, not with each individually: ami in its giviiiii' up to the rvots 
 not only the revenue to be derived from the arable lands, but that also to be obtained by 
 afier-exertious from the waste also. In fact, iu leaving', in consideration of a contract to 
 pay a given sum as public revenue, the entire internal administration of the affairs to the 
 village communitv. 
 
 " '281. The object in view was to adapt tin; revenue administration to the ancient insti- 
 tutions and ancient usages of the country, to which the Hindoos are provc'rbially attached ; 
 to suit th(! system to the people, and not to attempt to bend the people to the system. 
 Mr. Place quoted, by some mistake in Cngland, as an advocate for ryot war, has well described 
 tJie village settlement, and it is curious to observe the accuracy with which he predicted 
 the consequences resulting from an attempt at the introduction of ryotwar in the Tamil 
 country. 
 
 " It would," says he, " be superfluous, impracticable, and impolitic to ascertain with 
 greater preci>ioti than has already been done, the measured extent of each share, or of each 
 man's ])roportion of meera-say ; because, ill the first place, it would strengthen those sus- 
 picions which have arisen ; and in the next, it could only be done by personal survey and 
 the most unremitting attention, which, I think, hardly any one man can give to the com- 
 pletion of such a work, independent of innumerable variations that would take place while 
 it was ill hand ; and it would be unwise, because not only it will be ever the most beneficial 
 mode to let the lauds of every village jointly to the inhabitants at large, both witii a view to 
 security and to good cultivation; but to let them sejjarately, would tend to create divisions 
 and dissensions, to the undoubted embarrassment of themselves, as well as of the public. 
 No difficulty occurs in fixing the value of all the lands together of one village, but it would 
 be nearly impossible to assigti to every small allotment its proportion so exactly, and with 
 such due regard to fertility of soil and other circumstances, thai some should not benefit 
 and others suffer; yet the latter would not receive the assistance of the former, in case of 
 failure in their engagements. 
 
 " At present every village considers itself a distinct society, and its general concerns tiie 
 sole object of the inhabitants at large; a practice, surely, which redounds as much to the 
 public good as to theirs, each having, in some way or other, the assistance of the rest. The 
 labours of all yield the rent ; they enjoy the profit proportionate to the original interest, and 
 the loss fulls light. It consists exactly with the principles upon which the advantages are 
 derived by a division of labour: one man goes to market, whilst the rest attend to the 
 cultivation and harvest: each has his particular occupation assigned to him, and insi-nsiblv 
 labours for all; but if each had these several duties to attend to, it is obvious that all the 
 inhabitants must be absent together at these tiiues thai are most critical, both to them and 
 to the state, and that many must want those abilities necessary to the peiformance of the 
 various employments that would arise. 
 
 " On the vvliole, I cannot but consider that any reform tending to do away the union, or, 
 if I may be allowed the expression, the unity of the inhabitants, and to fix each exclusively 
 to his property, will be attended with danger." 
 
 '' 285. It was apprehended bv some, that where the collective body of the ryots would 
 not consent to assessment fixed by the collector on the village, and it became, conse- 
 quently, requisite to enter into a settlement with the head only of the village, he would 
 exercise over ihe inferior ryots all sorts of oppression; but it was conceivid that Ins petty 
 tyrannies cotild never equal those to which the ryot was liable from the more powerful 
 Tehsildar. On the contrary, it was thought that his more intimate acquaintance with the 
 affairs of the village, his supeiior knowledge of all its localities, his fellow-feeling for his 
 unfortunate brethren, ihe -.issistance and forbearance which he knew when and how to afford 
 to each ryofmueii better than the Tehsildar, the interest he possessed in supporting his 
 populariiy among the village comniuniiy by a system of conciliation, and, above all, his 
 entire dependence on the ryots themselves to enable hiin to fulfil his engagements, would 
 render him a nmch more acceptable superior to them than the collector's severe and authorita- 
 tive deputy, connected with the ryot by no ties of dejiendence, friendship, or fi llow-ieeling, 
 and drpendent for all his piospects in life chiefly on the state of his treasury and the 
 precision of his collection." 
 
 0.10. 3 M 34. That
 
 452 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix No. ". S"*- Tli;it the objectii)ii leferreil to in the above quotntion from the Board of Revenue's 
 
 L- ' Minute is, as far as vour petitioneis are acquainte;!, the principal, if not the only one, thai 
 
 has b( en urged against the village system : and the Couri of Directors have adopted it in 
 their Revenue Letter to the Governient of ihi-^ Presidency, dated the 12th December 1821 ; 
 when alluding to the propriety of assessing the lands of a village in common, they observe, 
 it " appe:<rs, according to all the intorraation before us, liable to this conclusive objection, 
 that the piincipal ryots are enabled in villages of this description to lelieve themselves at 
 the expense of the inferior;" but your petitioners submit that uith only common and proper 
 regulations for the guidance of the managing Ryots, equal justice could be easily distri- 
 buted : there is no recoid that the coniniry has, at any time, been the case under the short 
 operation of the diceiniial settlement; while there is abundant testimony to the beneficial 
 effects it is capable of producmg towards the entire village community: ns, for instance, 
 the Honorable Mounsiuart Elphinslone, when Governor of Boml)ay, recorded his opinion 
 that the system was less objectionable, " because there are many ties on the potail (or 
 iiead ryot of the village), to I'.rcvent his oppressing the people with whom he has been 
 brought up, and among whom he is to pass the remainder of his days. It is not by any 
 means so unpopular among the people. It gives lo the person whose business it is to 
 direct and encouiaue the labour-, of the ryots, ar. interest in their suci:ess ; it strengthens 
 the influence of the potail, so much re(piired in revenue, police, atid i.i settling disputes, 
 and so likely to be undetermined by the intioduction of an officer of government." Mr. 
 Martin, Resident and Chief Commissioner at Delhi, speaking of the same class of persons 
 in the Upper Provinces of Bengal (Letter to Government, 31st May 1831) observes, 
 " Independently of the numerous ties by which they are connected with several subdivisions 
 of the villyge, and which constrain them to the observance of an equiiable regard to the 
 rights and interests ol all, the process ot internal distribution among tliemselves of the share 
 whicii each of the subordinate proprietors shall contribute to the |iaynient of the Govern- 
 ment demand, regulated as tliai process is by principles and usages which are fimiliar to 
 all, constitutes, in mv opinion, a sufficient safeguard against the undue preponderance of 
 sinister interest in the engaging partner, and produces that harmonious regulation of the 
 village economy, which results from the free co-operation of its members in the settlement 
 ol their affairs, and which appears to be no less conservative of the moral interests of the 
 community, than condncive to an equitafle asses--nient upon each proprietor, according to- 
 lite extent and value of his share i;i the aggregate demand of Government. 
 
 30. That your petitioners will adduce further testimonies to the excellence of the village 
 system, when pieserved in its iniegiiiy. The first being that of the influential personage 
 who has been the main intioducer of the ryotwar system, SirTliomas Munro, in his report 
 of the 15th May 1806, states, " Every village is a little republic with the potail at the head 
 of it, and India a mass of such republics. The inhabitants during war look chiefly to their 
 own potail. Thev give themselves no trouble about the breaking up ami division of king- 
 doms ; while the village remains entire, they care not to what power it is transferred. 
 Wheiever it goes ilu- internal management remains unaltered. The p!)tail is still the 
 collector, magistrate, anel head farmer." And the second is derived from the authority ol 
 the late Lord Metcalf, " The village communities are little republics, having everything thev 
 want "ilhiii themselves, and almost independent of any foreign relations. They seem to 
 last where nothing else lasts. Dynasty after dynasty tumbles down, revolution succeeds 
 revolution, Hindu, i^itlan, Mogul, Mahratta, 8ikh, English, all are masters in turn ; but 
 the village coiiimuiiitics remain the same. This union of village communities, each one 
 forming a separate state in itself, has, I conceive, contributed more than any other to the 
 preservation of the people of India throughout all the revolutions and changes which they 
 have siifl'ered, and is in a high degree conducive to their happiness and to tlie enjoyment of 
 a great portion of freedom and independence." 
 
 36. That both the Madras Government and the Board of Revenue, who witnessed the 
 eft'ec ts of the decennial assessment, were highly satisfied with the result, and recommended 
 its general adojition ; combating th<- objections against its introduciion in the following 
 language, copied Iroiu the minute on which your petitioners have already drawn so 
 largely : — 
 
 "287. The judgment which has been pronounced in Englantl against the village system, 
 of which the oiiilinc is given -above, is founded on a very partial :ind uiilavourable view of 
 its ret-ults; for it does not appear that the autlioiities at liome bad, -at the time when that 
 judgment was passed, any information before them resjjccting any t)ther portion of it tliau 
 its tonimenci nient, ilie triennial settlement. It is hoped that the reports which have since 
 been forwarded, in elucidation of the effects of the decennial settlement, will enable them 
 to form a more correct oi)niion of the tendency of the village systci 
 
 :;iii. 
 
 " 288. Nothing, however, that has been urged at home, appears to contravene any of the 
 fundamental i)iiii(i])lcs of the village system. The whole of the evils arising from the 
 tri'-mual seltl iiient, or which have been attributed to ii, may distinctly l)e traced, not to 
 its intimsic piinciplis, but to i's over assessment, which it must be allowed has been justly 
 condemned ; for it was nearly eveiyuheie a mere rack-rent. Under the pressing orders 
 received from England, about that period, requiring from this country a surplus revenue of 
 a million stnling, accompanied by a threat from the honourable Court of Directors t(» 
 take the revision of the establishments into their own hands, not only was the most rigid 
 economy enforced in ail depaitmeiits of the state, but the triennial seltieineiit of each 
 
 village
 
 SELECT COMMirrEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 453 
 
 village where the ryonvar sy^^tem had cxisied was too 'j;eiierally determineii witli refen-iicr: Appendix No -. 
 
 to the payments unilur ihe survty rent ; in otlier words, wiili reference to the collections ^ 
 
 under the ryoiwar system, when all was taken from the people that they were able to pay.* 
 The over assessment during this period, therefore, arose from the triennial scttltmcnt havinc 
 in a great degree been founded upon tiie fallacious data of the ryotwar collections; and if 
 any inference is to be drawn from this circumsiance, it is one against the ryotwar, not 
 against tiie village settlement. 
 
 •289. "The practical error, with some others of a similar nature, which had inadvertently 
 crept into the triennial settlement, and arc attributable entirely to a deviation from its 
 principles, was in general avoided in the decennial seiilemcnt, which, as embracinf a 
 longer period and a greater vicissitude of seasons, is the standard by which a fair judgment 
 n'lay be formed of the result of the village system. 
 
 '• 290. That although this system has not been equally successful in every disirict, yet 
 even where, as in liellary, it has been the least so, the collectors are un-mmious in opinion 
 that it has most materially improved ilie condition of the great agricultural i.-opulation of the 
 country, and that it is the great body of the ryots, and not the mere parties with whom the 
 settlement was concluded, who have chiefly benefited by the village settlement. The 
 ryotwar toerwas have nearly everywhere been greatly reduced ; and instead of the head 
 ryots oppressing their inferiors, most of the collectors have been obliged to prop their 
 weakened authoiity by that of their tehsildars. This, without any material exception, is 
 the universal language of all their repoits, and it is a result \\hich may be coi;fidently 
 offered as conclusire evidence that the system has generally .mswered the expectations 
 of those by whom it was miroduted ; but where the settlement has been best conducted, 
 as in Cuddapah and the northern divi>ion of Arcot, a picture of prosperity is drawn, 
 of which the parallel may in vain be sought for throughout the revenue records of this 
 presidency." 
 
 37. Tlvat, notwithstanding this decided testimony to the superiority of the village system, 
 as regards the prosperity both of the nvenue and the cultivator, the Court of Directors 
 ordered the village system to be superseded by the ryotwar, as before stated hv your 
 petitioners; and, with a professed view to remedy the evds .illending it, issued orders 
 which declared that the labour of the ryot slioidd be henceforward free from conipulsion; 
 that private property in lands on this side of the Peninsula should be acknowledged, and 
 that the over-assessment shonlil be reduced ; but, however well-intentioned those orders 
 may have been, ryotwar is still the curse of the country, the over-assessment continues 
 •unaUered, the ryots are compelled to cultivate at tlio pleasure of the tehsiidar, and the 
 acknowledged right of private property in no way prevents the oppression of the owner, nor 
 his gTadual and sure depauperation. That while your petitioners apply to your honourable 
 House lor a return lo their old revenue system on the broad ground of justice to the 
 cultivators, they beg to point out a few particulars in which the change will be advanta- 
 geous to the Government: — 1. It will be relieved from ihe loss and coiruption entailed bv 
 the ryotwar system ; 2. It is secured from all loss arising from unequal land tax ; :3. The 
 rent will not depend upon the correct assessment of the cultivation; and, 4. The charge of 
 collection will be considerably decreased ; yet even were there no immediate advantage 
 likely to accrue lo the Government, your petitioners would repiesent that a lighter and 
 more reasonable assessment, coupled with tlie removal of the vexations and oppiessions 
 accompanying the present mode of collection, would ensure a much larger cultivation, and 
 thereby the revenues of the state would be improved ; and that the people of India are 
 therefore entitled to seek and to obtain from the paiamoiMit authority of the Imperial 
 Parliament, the necessary and equitable redress of the weighty and nmltiforni grievances 
 brouglu upon them bv the introduction of the system under which they groan; and their 
 claims to the mode of redress they have pointed out are rendered still stionger by the fact, 
 that a settlement by villages nearly resembling that which your petitioners seek for them- 
 selves, is actually now in full operation in the north-western provinces under the Bengal 
 Presidency, where the leases are held on a term of 30 years' duration. 
 
 ;18. That the next grievance regardinK which your petitioners appeal to your Honourable 
 Hou^e, is the moturpha, or tax upon trades and occupations, embracing weavers, carpenters, MotiirpLa. 
 all workers in metals, all salesmen, whether poss< ssing shops w hich aie also taxed separately, 
 or vending by the load side, &c. Sec, some paying impost on iheir tools, others for permis- 
 sion to sell, extending to the most trifling articles of trade and the cheapest tools the 
 mechanic can employ, the cost of whicli is frequently exceeded six times over by the mo- 
 turpha, under which the use of them is permitted, 
 
 39. That this tax, although of Mahomedan origin, as might well be supposed only from 
 its oppressiveness, without the proof that it was so, contaimd in the Arabic word 
 " moturpha," was never universal at this presidency, and was dcelared to be general only 
 20 years ago by Reg. V. of 1832, wher. by it was enacied, that " the not having been actually 
 charged with the said tax for any length of lime, or residing at a place where it has not been 
 
 actually 
 
 * See Report of the Board of Revenue to Government, dated 25 April 1808, 
 0.10. 3 M 1
 
 4.j4 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. actually levied, shall not entitle any person to exemption (ioni it ;" while such is the extreme 
 
 irregularity ot" its collection, that wliereas in the district of Tanjore it does not exceed the 
 
 averaireof a farthing ]jer head, in Kurniool, where the h>nd assessment is much greater than 
 in Tanjore, it amounts to no less than !) *■. 4 d. per head ; while in the district of Can;ira it 
 has been remitted since the year 18-12, and in that of Madura it remains unenforced to this 
 day. 
 
 40. That the last place to w hieli it has been extended is a part of tlie district of Chin2,le- 
 put, and its introduction theic in 1043 was attended with a serious disturbance; so great is 
 the aversion ot' the people to this obnoxious impost, which compels them to go to the col- 
 lector for their pullats, and often to be away from their occupation three or lour dtiys at a 
 time, costing them as much for their own expenses, and frequently more than the amount of 
 the tax they have to pay ; in many jiarts the poor are t.ixed while the more affluent are 
 exempted; and in all instances it falls more heavily upon the indigent than upon ilie 
 wealtiiy, while the discretionary power under which it is collected affords a wide field for 
 the perpeiu.il practice of incjuisituiial visits, extortion, and opjjression, as suits the pleasure 
 or the cupidity of the irresponsible collectors, with whom it is no unusual thing to resort to 
 imprisonment and fetters in order to compel their exactions. 'J'hat the whole sum raised by 
 this impost is but little above 100,000/. sterling; and, as it has already been entirely 
 abolished at Bengal and Bombay, your petitioners request that the same advantages may be 
 extended to Madras. 
 
 Small fHTin» and 41. That closely allied to the moturpha impost is the grievance of small farms and 
 
 brcnsfs. licenses^ intended tor raising what is called extra revenue, aiul which consists in the animal 
 
 leasing out to individuals of certain priyileges, such as the right of measuring grain and 
 other articles ; the right to tiie sweepings of the goldsmiths' workshops ; the right of dyeing 
 betel nut; of cutting jungle wood; of grazing cattle; of gathering wild fruit and wild 
 honey; of catching wild fowl; of cutting grasses used in thatching; basket rushes and 
 cow duns ; and innumerable other such rights of levying taxes from the poorest of the poor, 
 who fee! tliem to be a most intolerable burthen, not only in the amount but in the vexations 
 attendant on the collection of the money. Your petitioners therefore pray that these grind- 
 ing imposts, the motini)ha and the small farms and the licenses, may no longer be permitted 
 to oi)press the suHeritig people of this jiresidency. 
 
 f^alt monopoly. 42. That the next grievance to which your petitioners v.ould draw the attention of your 
 
 Honoural)le House is the salt monopoly, a soiu'ce of revenue introduced into this presi- 
 dency by the East India Company ; the manuficture of this article under the Ibrnier govern- 
 ments having been subjected to no other restriction than that of a trifling duty; but under 
 the British Government the right of manufacture began to be farmed or rented bv 
 individuals U|)on such terms as enabled the manufacturers to sell it on the coast at the 
 price of 10 pagodas or 35 rupees per garce of 3,200 measures; and up to the year 1H05, 
 the revenue derived from that source did not exceed 80,000 pagodas or 280,000 rupees 
 per annnin. 
 
 43. That in the year 1806, tlie Government established an agency for the control and 
 management of the suit department, the fir>t consequence of which was the doubling of the 
 price of the aiticle, which was then fixed at 70 rupees the garce, when the annual average 
 consumption fur the space of three years amounted to 31,685 garces, at the end of which 
 time, in the \enr 1809, the price was again raised from 70 to lO.i lupees the garce, being- 
 three times as much as it had been prior 10 the Government monopoly ; but, as the enhanced 
 price naturally decreased the consumption, the price in 1820 v;as again fixed at 70 n]i)ees; 
 but afier a course of eight years, the price was again fixed at 105 rupee>, wdiich was still 
 fuitlier raised 10 ISO in the year 1844; but in the same year it was reduced 10 rupees 120, 
 at which pi ice it has ever snice contiimed : that this being the wholesale price, it is of course 
 sold to the retail dealer at an advance, who, as necessarily, adds his profit, lo be jiaul by tlie 
 consumer ; and while the poorer classes are able to purchase a mucli smaller tpiantiiy than 
 they could consume when living nearest to the salt pans, those who reside at a distance have 
 to |)ay the expenses of the carriage, at the average rate of a rupee on each garce for every 
 mile; so thai it comes to them, according to the distance, oO, 100, and 200 per cent, deaier 
 than at the coast : and the consequence is, that either the people go without salt alt ig. liter, 
 or substitute an nnwholesume aiticle obtained fiom comiiion eartli impregnated with saline 
 particles, which they m.iiuifaclure at the risk el punishment, the procurement of salt other 
 than that o( the inoiioiJoly being )3iohd)ited under penalty of fine and corporal punishment, 
 iiiHicted at the discretion of the collccior or his tehsildar. 
 
 44. That your petitioners submit the great probability, amounting almost to a certainty, 
 that the revenue derivable from this article might be obtained, if not even exceeded, were 
 the monopoly itduced to the original |)rice of 70 rupees ilie garce, as may be inielligible 
 tr(;ni the calculations follow ing. By the revemr- accounis for this prtsidfiicy, duiing the 
 foul yeais comnieiKiiig with lt'4(i-47, and ending 18J!)-50, printed by order of your 
 Honourable Mouse in Slav 1851, and which are the latest accessible to your ])etiti'iners, if. 
 appears that the annual average ^ross revenue is 40,41,8(58 rupee*, the actual amouiii for 
 ihe lust year, lHJO-50, being 4r;,15,94(» rupees: and the sale price being 120 rupees per 
 gaici-, the quantity con^ua.cd will amount to not more than 38,71(5 garces, or enough lo 
 supply the wants of 0, 882, 844 individual.-, 18 measuies [ler annum beiiiLi the average quantitv 
 consumed by each individual who can afford to ])urcliasc : but the pupulaticn of tiie 20 col- 
 
 lectoratcs.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 455 
 
 lectoratts, inclurlinii tluii of the city of Madras, amountrd in lltso-S', as pnr return of Api)€i,dix, No. 7- 
 
 ctiisus, published l)y tlic Hoard of Revenue nf Fort St. George, to '2•i,^^iM,^^'.t^ ; to which, if 
 
 there be added tl'C j)"|niUition of Mysore, TnivancoK;, and the iccciitly-acrjiiircd provincf 
 of Coorii, wliich in tlie ve:ir 183!) was estimaicd at :j,419,7ol, there will be (bund a total 
 of '.'6,721,451, out of which there may be calculated that -iOjOOO.OOO arc, or would be if they 
 coidd piocuie it, coiisunier.s of salt, allowing- 5,7"2 1,451 for inf.iiiis under five years of ii2;e 
 who do imt use the aitiele; and these 20,000,000 consuniin-j; as they would do, on an 
 average, 18 Madras nieasines per annum each, would reqiiire a supjjly of 112, 500 garees, or 
 nearly tlirice the (juantity of the present actual consumpiion, without including the salt 
 required for the catile, which is a large quantity, and would be increased materially by the 
 diminution of the price. 
 
 45. That according to tlie puhlislied accounts above ciuoted, it will be found that the 
 cost and ciiarges of the manufacture is something under 21 rupees the garce ; and, conse- 
 (juently, if froni these 3«,71<> garees, sold for 4,(545,92f> rupees, there be deducted the actual 
 co-t and charges of «,12,»!14 rupees, the net profit to the Government will be 33,33,312 
 rupees; hut the sale price of 112.000 garees, at 70 rupees per garce, is 78,75,000 rupees; 
 and deducting for eostand charges the sum of 25 rupees the garce, amounting to 2,812,500, 
 the net profit to Government will be 50,62,500 rupees, or 10,29,188 rupees in excess of the 
 revenue now obtained at the sale price of 120 rupees per garce : that the excess of revenue 
 just quoted is equal to 23,274 garees, sufficient for 4, 137,t>00 people; so that should tiie 
 consumers be no more than 16,000,000, instead ol 20,000,000, the piesent net revenue will 
 sufi'er no deterioration, and ihe Government will still have a gain upon the article of more 
 than 180 per cent. : your petitiiiners, therefore, pray your Honourable House that, as the 
 lowering of the price will do no liann to the Govenniient, while it will relieve so large a 
 |)ortion of the people from a most oppressive and injurious tax, affecting not only their com- 
 fort l)ut their health likcwis<', that the Government charge for the article may return to the 
 rate first iutroductd by the monopoly. 
 
 46. That another serious evil of which your petitioners have to complain is the increased Abk»ry. 
 and increasing consumption of spirituous liquors at this presidency, owing, as your peti- 
 tioners are compelled to state, to the encouiagement given to their use by the local govern- 
 ment, and fr(mi which, in the capital alone, it now derives a gioss revenue of 60,000/. ];er 
 annum. The liquor generally known by the name of arrack is made at the Government 
 distilleries, and thence supplied to licensed venders to the number of 150, by whom it is 
 
 sold in small quantities in every direction. In the interior, the manufacture and sale of the 
 article is committed to contractors or farmers, who compete for the privilege annually at 
 public auction, the sales realizing, on the average, 250,000 /. a year ; and as the sale price is 
 extremely low, the quantity consumed and the tiumber of (onsumers is immense. Drunken- 
 ness, wiih all miseries, is consequently common throughout, the land, and its baneful efl'ects 
 are a full counterpoise for whatever real or imaginary benefits have been derived by the 
 lower ciders of India from her connexion with Great Britain. Your petitioners have not 
 memorialized Government in order to obtain the repression of this evil, not only because 
 memorials to the Bomiiay authorities have totally failed, but because the amount of revenue 
 thus derived from native demoralization is too great for your petitioners to indulge the 
 slightest hone of procuring even a diminution of so profitable a vice, forbidden by Hindoo 
 and Mahomedan l,iw, and comparatively unknown before the ascendancy of European 
 dominion. But your petitioners venture to indulge an expectation that your Honourable 
 House will view the pestilence in its true light, and provide the remedy which so wide-spread 
 and ruinous a calamity imperatively demands. 
 
 47. That your petitioners will now advert to some other subjects requiring redress, such Post-office, 
 as the Post-office, which, besides being very tardily and slovenly conducted, acts, by the 
 exoibitance of its charges, like a dead weight upon commercial correspondence and the 
 circulation of knowledge ; and which weight would be considerably lightened were the 
 conveyance of official papers, which form three-fourths of the mail conveyed by tapfial, 
 
 placed to the expense of tlie Governuieat : this would make the Po>t-office revenue four 
 times the amount now credited, and of course would permit of a corresponding reduction 
 in the cost for carriage : a letter or package which now is taxed at 1 5. nught then reach its 
 destination for the cost of Hd., and >till the returns of the department would nioie than 
 cover the expemiiture, even vviiliuiit an increase of correspondence, wh;ch, however, would 
 certainly take place to a considerable extent, as a consequence of a diiniimtion in the rates 
 of postage. 
 
 48. That a nece-sary nuxiliary to the increase of corresjxnidcnce is a thorough reform in 
 the managemrnt of the Pust-ofiice departments, beginning at the capital, ?nd extending to 
 the retiiotest boundaries of the presidency, which, alihoujih containinij; an area of upwards 
 of 140,000 square miles, has no more than 130 post-olfiees, controlled by 30 post masters, 
 a number totally inadequate to the wants of tlie public, to meet wiiich efheientlv your 
 petitioneis .'•ug<:est that there should be at least one or more officers in every talook, accord- 
 ing to its size, so that no inhaliited part of the coiintrv slmuid be more tlian 10 miles from a 
 post-office. At present, the airangemeiits for (hstnbuting the letters among the native 
 population, even at the slutiiuis where the offices arc situated, are nio>t deiective and imper- 
 fect; the agents employed are of an inferior description, who frequently retain the delivery 
 (or days, till the parlies to wlioin the letters aie addressed submit to some unauthorized 
 demand ; while as leganis places at a ciistance from the post stations, the evil is much 
 
 o.io. 3 w 3 greater y
 
 456 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. greater ; t noimous del.iy, exiendinu: not unfreqnently to weeks, is incurred, and a heavy 
 
 charge besides; while, atter all, the dehveiy of letters is uncertain, and wrong parties are 
 
 sonietimts permitted to obtain tlirir possession. 
 
 49. That these combined circumstances, the paucity of offices and their inefficient supei- 
 vision, the dclnys, exaction--, and unceriainti( s, ciuise the Post-office to be greatly less 
 trusted than ii would otlumise be by the native public, who, in very many instances, have 
 established dawk tr,in>it at their own expense, thereby depriving the State of a part of its 
 income, to an exient necessarily unknown, but as necessarily of no trivial importance ; and 
 your petiiioners therefore request that there may be a thorough reform in this department, 
 reacliing to the whole of iis branches: and that every paper or package passing tijrough it 
 shall be made subject to the same uniform rate of charge. 
 
 Mahratta Dufter. 50. That another office, constituting useless expense to the Government, is that of the 
 
 Maharaila Duller, or n .tive reviniie establishment, by which all revenue accounts have to be 
 translated from the Telugn, Canarese, Malayaluni, and Tamil languages, in which they are 
 originally kept and furnished, into the Mahaiatla; from which they are again rendered into 
 English ; this plan has been pursued at this presidency since the year 1824, and up to the 
 present year l:as cost little short of 90,000/.; tiie money being absolutely thrown away, 
 besides increasing the amount of public business, together with a proportionate amount of 
 official perplexity and confusion. 
 
 51. That your peiitioncis now proceed to direct the attention of your Honourable House 
 to the Maramut department, by which is intended the construction and preservation of 
 reservoirs and channels for the purposes of irri:jation, upon which not merely the fertility 
 of the soil, but the practicabdity of its cultivation, is mainly dependent on the eastern side 
 of India. Both the reservoirs and the channels are of the remotest antiquity, and were in 
 former times extremely numerous, but at the present period not more than four-fifths of 
 those still existing are kept in repair, while others have altogether disappeared, causing a 
 decline in the agriculture of the presidency, e(|ually hui tfui to the ryot and the revenue, and 
 this evil is occasioned partly from the unwidingness of the Government to disburse a suffi- 
 ciency of funds, partly from what it dots disburse being uiisy sternal ically applied, and 
 partly because the execution of the works is entiusled chiefly to the lehsildar, to whom 
 are committed the purchase of materials, the engagement of the labourers, and the pay- 
 ments due for each, he being held responsible both for the manner and time in which the 
 work is completed; and the powers of this officer being almost unlimited, as he possesses, 
 with very little abatement, the authority of the collector, he is able to compel the supply of 
 materials and labour below tlie market price, to diminish tlie c|uantity of that actually 
 furnished by short measurement of the work performed, and to delay the settlement of 
 accounts almost indefinitely at his pleasure. 
 
 52. That although an impost is annually levied upon the ryots for the I'epair of the 
 reservoirs and channels, there being a di-tinct charge consolidated in the land assessment 
 for the use of tlie water, and although the construction of new reservoirs, where they are 
 needed for an increased cultivation, will always give a return from 50 to 70 per cent, on the 
 capital laid out; yet, in the province of Tanjore, whose general fertility entitles it to be 
 called the granary ot the Madras Presidency, it appears by the latest published Report of 
 Captain A. Cotten on that district, the annual expenditure for repairs and other purposes 
 connected with irrigation amouiiis 10 no more than about two ]jer cent, upon the siross 
 produce, and he remarks, "There are at this moment passing to the sea by the Colleroon 
 at least 100,000,000 of cubic vards of water per day, sufficient for a crop of paddy in 
 8,000 cawnies; in a good fresh, sufficient water for a crop on 30,000 cawnies runs to waste 
 daily. In a moderate season cnouiih is losi to water certainly at least a million cawnies, 
 or a tract double the extent of Tanjore, which would piovide grain for about 2i millions 
 of people." And if such is the sh nder dishurscment upon iniL^ation in the best watered 
 provhice uf the presidency, it must be trifling indeed in those districts which are more 
 neglected, and as a natural consequence contribute lo ilie revenue in a far smaller pro- 
 poriion; the results of this negligence being, that immense tracts of land lie everywhere 
 uncultivated, sim|dy (or want of rcquisiie irrigaiion, while numerous large riveis are hourly 
 rolling their surplus waters into the ocean, along a co.ist extending from 800 to 1,000 
 miles along tiie eastern side of the ijeninsula, diioniing leclaiinable and virgin lands to 
 steriliiy, and cau-ing in great pait the periodical famines, which with iheir concomitant, 
 tiie pestilence, sweep away thewictclnd iniiabitants by myriads at each time of their 
 dreadful visitation. "Had a hundiedth part," observes Captain Cotton, "of the time, 
 labour, and money ihat has been lost by droiiijlits or expended in trying to obviate the 
 cftijcls of scartilics In en cx[)eiided in providing against them, verv much might have been 
 (iHected ; it is undoubied that in the worst year that ever ojcurrcd, enough water has been 
 allowed to flow into ihe sea to have irrigated ten times as miudi grain as would iiave sup- 
 plied the whole populaiion." And the iiiddiiirence of the Government on this head is the 
 more remarkable, lioni its being a known fact, that |)roper irrigation is computed to increase 
 fivefold ihe produce and the value of the land watered. 
 
 53. That, c 1. sely cninecled with the irrigation of the counlry, is the construction of 
 roads, lo enalde the cultivator ami the manulaciurer to coniribiite to the wants of each 
 other, and tiiereby incieasp the jirosiierity of the inhabitants in geneial, and in regard to 
 which your [jeLtioners have the greatest causes for complaint, it being a melancholy fact 
 
 that
 
 SELECT COMMllTEE ON INDIAN TEltRITORIES. 457 
 
 lliat llip sun: cxpoiuled for this purpose at tlie M;u!ras Pipsidcncy is sc.-ircely nliovo one- Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 halt' (jer cent, on her revenue; in the Nortli- Western Provinces it is two and a half, iind 
 
 in BeniiJil more tluiii one and three (|uariers; wliile I'onibay, with ;i for smaller revenue. 
 and hull the number of inhabitants, has more tlian l}7,000 /. exj)ended upon her roads and 
 canal-, while Madras has only 30,000 /. 
 
 54. That the condition of tiie loads at Madra-;, however bad, is just wh;>.t could be 
 expecicd under such circumstances ; l)ut as it is itnpossible for your petitioners to get at 
 oflicial documents on this head, the Government havin<4 declined complying with the 
 request of the association, and all public officers, civil and mdiiary, tieing; prohibited to 
 communicate ollicial information, ihey will draw upon an article contributed to the "Cal- 
 cutta Review," No. 32, for a lew facts by way ol elucidation. The ninuber of principal 
 or trunk roads, as set down in the nliirn of pul)lic works, printed by order of your 
 Honourable House in 1051, is only 11, but very few of tiiese aie finished, and noi one of 
 ihem is kept in a siate of eflicient repair; the only road that n always in irood order i 
 that leadniji from Fort St. Gcorsje to the head quarters of the ariillery at St. Thomas's 
 Mount, a distance of about eiaht miles; the longest road is that from Madras to Calcutta, 
 900 miles estimated lenyih, but it has never been coinpleied, and, allhousjh it is called the 
 Great North Road, and is used by all travellers proceedin<;- to the uorihern parts of the 
 preSidtrMcy, yet even a few miles from Madras it is not dislinjui^hable from paddy fields, 
 and piece noods have to be brouLjht on the heads of coolies from Nelloic, 110 miles distant, 
 and situated on this very ro;id ; 50 miles farther it passes over u wide swamp, causing carts 
 and travellers to skirt its edge in mud and water, as well as they can, during six monilis of 
 the year; on another part of ihe same line near Rajamundry, a gentleman was lately four 
 hours in travelling seven miles on horseback; paitsof this road have been at various times 
 repairtd, bi;t these portions have afterwards been totally neglected and allowed to fall anam 
 into ruin ; for the most part the line is unbridged, and in the places where bridges have 
 been constructed they have been neglected, till the approaches have been wholly cut away 
 by the rains, leaving the bridges inaccessible, and consequently useless. From this road 
 another branches off towards Hydrabad and Nagpore, but though it is only •22 miles in 
 lensth, the money expended upon it has been thrown away, and it is never in a tit state for 
 traffic; and such is the general condition of all the rest of the trunk roads, with the excep- 
 tion of that leading to Bangalore, which, and which alone, is practicable, and tliat only 
 latterly lor post carriages and horses, proceeding at the rate ol four or five miles per hour. 
 
 55. That the country is in an equally desperate condition as regards district roads. The 
 district of Cuddapah, measuring 13,000 square miles, has nothing that deserves the name 
 of road ; there are tracks, impassable after a little rain ; and everywhere carts, when used, 
 carrv lialf their proper load, and proceed by stages of half the usual length; while the trunk 
 road from this district is so notoriously bad, that the Military Board use it as a trial ground 
 to test the powers of new gun carriages, which are prononnced safe if they pass over this 
 severe ordeal. This district is one of the finest cotton fields in South India, but has its 
 prosperity impeded and kept down by the wretched state of its iniernal roads, and of its 
 communicaiion with the coasi, the natural outlet for its commerce. Other districts might 
 be named only second to this in extent, and hardly inferior in capabilities, in which the 
 internal communications are no belter; and there are few districts in which country roads, 
 as distinguished from the chief trunk roads, have received any attention whatever, anJ to all 
 but these few the description ol Cuddapah is applicable; the principal exception being 
 the Collectorate of Salem, which as it is a level country, without any large rivers, has, 
 under Mr. Orr, received considerable improvement at a trifling expense of about 4,000/.. 
 and the forced labour of the district ; but it is still without main routes of communication 
 writh the surrounding districts. 
 
 56. That ihe entire extent of road practicable for bullock cans, scarcely exceeds 3,000 
 miles for the entire presidency; mostly without bridges, impracticable in wet weather, 
 tedious and dangerous in the dry season ; not an individual talook possesses roads corre- 
 spondent to the number of its population, and wheie there is the greatest improvement, as at 
 Salem, it is of no benefit to the other paits of the country, and to them is all the same as if 
 it had no existence. 
 
 67. That the unwillingness of the Company and the local Government to expend money 
 on the constiuctiori of roads lequisite for ihe interchange of traffic from province to province, 
 and from the interior to the shipping ports along the coast, would be incredible if it were not 
 a notorious and substantial fact; and it is still worse that they sliould pretend the ryot^ 
 ought to make them at tiieir own expense, for pressed down, ;is they are, by a heavy load of 
 taxes, which renders them too poor to purchase Company's salt for their miserable food of 
 boiled rice and vegetables, the latter too frequently wild lierb'^, the spontaneous produce ot* 
 theumultivatid earth; unable to supply themseives with clothes, beyond a piece of coar-e 
 cotton fabric, wortti 2s., once in a twelvemonth, it is impossible for them to find the means 
 or time for road-makini; gratis, even if they possessed the skill requisite for the purpose; 
 and your petitioners submit that it is the boniiden duty of the State, which reduces tliein to 
 their miserable condition, and keeps them in it from charter to charier, lo speiul a far larger 
 portion of the resources upon the improvement ol' the country whence thy are derived tliaa 
 it does at prei-ent. It c .n find money to carry on wars for self-aggrandisement, to allow 
 immoderate salaries to its civil service, to pension off the whole of its members on 501)/. a 
 vear each, and to pay interest at 10 per cent, to the proprietors ol East India Stock, all 
 
 0.10. 3 M 4 f'""i
 
 468 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix. No, •:. ffom the labour of the ryot ; and when he requires roads by which lie might find the means 
 
 ' of betterina his conciition, and that of tiie revenue, he is lold that he must make thetn for 
 
 himself. 
 
 58. That the refusal of the local govermnent to effect ihe necessary improvemenis, on 
 the ground of financial incapacity, has indeed much appciirance of trtiih ; owing to the 
 circumstance that the Supreme Government of India will not idlow any money to be 
 assigned to tiie purpose of improvements at this presidency, unless she contributes to tlie 
 general revenue of the Company the quota of 50 lacs of ru[)ees over and above her own 
 expenditure; and as the smplus revenue for the year 1849-50 was only 43,10,761 rupees, 
 and all preceding years very much less, Madras on these terms can hope for bt:t a srr.all 
 allowance ; but the fact is that she is dealt by most unjustly, in being compelled to furnish 
 military protection to various districts, the revenues ot which are ])aiii into the treasuries 
 of Bengal and Bombay; tlie cost to her of the troops thus supplied amounts to 7i),ft3,000 
 rupees, making, with the surplus already quoted, the sum of 1,22,99,761, nearly 73 lacs 
 above her assigned quota, and, were she allowed to spend her own surplus, there would be 
 ample funds both for public works and for relief from injurious and impolitic taxation; 
 while the construction of good roads ihroughout the presidency would go far to abate the 
 severity of periodical famines, by permitting the easy transport of grain ironi one province 
 to another, which is absolutelv impossible under present circumstances, when a journey of 
 any length would occasion the consumption of the grain for the support of tlie drivers and 
 their cattle long before they could reacli their destination. Your petitioners, therefore, beg 
 for that portion of redress which your Honourable House sliail juilge to tlie necessities of 
 the people and the pros]ierity of the presidency. 
 
 ^'.piuauvV Oourt* ''^' '^''^'' .V"'' petitioneis now come to the repiesentatioii of the grievances under which 
 
 of Ir.^r. ' they labour in connexion with the administration of civil law in the courts of the East 
 
 India Company ; the process of which, besides involving large unnecessary expense, is 
 slow, complicated, and imperfect. These courts comprise those of the moonsills, with a 
 jurisdiction in suits under 1,000 rupees; of the sudr ameens, wiili a jurisdiction below 
 2,500 rupees; of the principal sudr ameens, or subordinate judges, witliin 10,000 rupees; 
 and of the zillah, or civil judges, with juiisdiction unlimited; finally, the Comt of Sudr 
 Adawlut, the highest court of appeal in the country, having also discretionary power to 
 call up certain suits from the civil courts for original investigation. 
 
 60. That from the decisions of the moonsiffs, sudr ameens, principal sudr ameens, or 
 suV)ordin;ite judges, an appeal lies to the civil courts; decrees of these latter are similarly 
 appealable to the Sudr Adawlui ; and in suits involving 10,000 rupees and upwards, a 
 further appeal to the Privy Council is open ; also, cases appealed to the civil courts can 
 have a special appeal to the Sudr Court, should there be iiny inconsistency with some law 
 or usage in respect of which there may exist reasonable doubt. The inoonsiffs, sudr 
 ameens, and principal sudr ameens, are either Europeans, East Indians, or natives, but 
 the subordinate, civil, and Sudr Adawlut judges are covenanted civil servants. 
 
 61. That in all suits, whether in courts of the first instance, or in appeal, every paper 
 presented to the court, the power of attorney to the vakeel, the pleadings, the exhibits of 
 whatever kind, must be on stamped paper of a certain value, varying, in an jiscending scale 
 with the jurisdiction of the couris, and four annas (sixpence) to four rnptes (eight sliiliings) 
 per sheit of 30 lines, independently of an institution fee, payable in every court through 
 which a suit maybe carried, according to the Ibllowing scale: — In suits for sums not 
 exceediuir 16 rupees, one rupee; above 16 rupees, and not exceeding 32, t^vo rupees; 
 from 32 to 64, four rupees; from 64 to 150, eight lupees; from 150 to 300, 16; from 
 300 to 800, 32 ; from 800 to 1,600, 50; 1,600 to 3,000, 100; 3,000 to 5,000, 150; 5,000 
 to 10.000, 250; 10,000 to 15,000, 350; 15,000 to 25,000, 500; 25,000 to 50,000,750; 
 50,0(10 lo 100,000, 1,000; above 100,000, 2,000; this fee is to he the stamp on the first 
 slieet of the plaint or petition of appeal; and all further sheets to com|)lete the plead- 
 ing n.ust have each a stamp, varying, according to the court of jurisdiction, from four 
 iiniias to four rupees. All proceeilings in every suit are matter of record to meet the privi- 
 lege of appe.d. 
 
 62. Tliut the vexatious de'ays nrisin'j; out of tlie present judicial system, and the injury 
 thereby Infli ted on the suitors, attracted the notice of the Court of Directors so long ago 
 as the year 1814, as will be apparent from the following; txiract from a despatch to the 
 government of ih s presidency, da'cd the 29tli April in that year, and printed by order of 
 your llnnonrable House on the l-,t July 1819: — 
 
 "17. What also occasions the great arrears of suits in all our tribunals, both European 
 iind native, is the process and forms by which justice is administered. This process, and 
 these Ibnns, are sul»taiilially the same as those of liie superior tribunals in England, and 
 even pass under the same names. The pleadings of the court are almost in every case 
 written (as well as tlie evidmce of witnesses), and tiny proceed by petition or dcclaralioii. 
 replication and ri joinder, snppleiiienlrd answer and reply. 
 
 " 18. Such a minute and tedious mode of |)roceedin'i, in a country wiieiv the courts are 
 so few. compiled with the vast extent r.nd i)opiilalioii of it, must he quite incompatible 
 with prou-.|.liiude and dispatcli. Causes must be long pending, and slowly got over off the 
 file; Hiid ihe tardiness with which iliey are brought to a settlement must, in innumerable 
 instances, he a greater evil than the original injury sought to be redressed, to say nothing 
 
 of
 
 SELECT COMMniEi: 03S INDIAN TERRlTOIilES. 
 
 4. 09 
 
 of the li'tqucnt visits wliicli tiie litigant parlies aie under the necessity ol m;ikiiig, fof tlie A]ipeiidix, No. 7. 
 
 purpose of filing their pleiidiiij^s in ilie pr<),i:;ress of the cause, according to the turn uliich 
 
 the procecdiiius may take. This grievaiKe is one of no ordinary magnitude to the suiiors, 
 as well as to those who may be summoned to give evidence. On one desciipiion of persons 
 it must, according to the information we have received from Colonel Munro, operate with 
 pecidiar S( verity : we here reler to the heads of villages. 'They are (he observes) sui)ject 
 to gri'at inconvenience and distress, being summoned as witnesses in every trifling liiiga- 
 tioti that goes befoie the judge from their icspective villages. They are supposed to know 
 the state of the matter belter than anybody else, and are therefore always summoned. They 
 are detained weeks and mojiths from the managcmeiii of their farms, and tire frequently no 
 Booner at home than they are c;dle<l away .^>0 or 100 miles by a fresh summons about some 
 petty suit which they could have settled much better on the spot: and crowds of ili^m, as 
 well as of the principal riots, are always lyinti about the courts, and very often without its 
 being known to the judge that tin y are there.' " 
 
 03. 'lliat in order to exemplii'y the tediousness of the protractions to which suits aie liable, 
 your p( titioners will select a few cases from " Decisions of the Sudr Adawlui," — published 
 by that court, — embracing the last iialf year of 1049 : — 
 
 Date of Proceedings of 
 Sudr Adawlut. 
 
 Nature of Decision. 
 
 Year of 
 Original Suit. 
 
 Time occupied. 
 
 2 July 1849 - 
 
 Special Appeal Suit decided - 
 
 1840 
 
 9 years 
 
 >' f* 
 
 Suit rtmuiided to Civil Couil - 
 
 184.5 
 
 4 „ 
 
 ).• J J 
 
 Ditto ditto 
 
 1843 
 
 6 „ 
 
 i> J> 
 
 Ditto ditto 
 
 184(5 
 
 3 „ 
 
 '20 Aug. „ - 
 
 Suit remtmded to Original Court 
 
 184G 
 
 3 „ 
 
 l» l> 
 
 Suit remanded to Civil Court - 
 
 1847 
 
 2 ,. 
 
 23 „ „ - 
 
 Decrees of Lower Courts reversed - 
 
 1841 
 
 8 .. 
 
 22 Oct. „ 
 
 Suit remanded to Civil Court - 
 
 184G 
 
 3 „ 
 
 12 Nov. „ 
 
 Ditto ditto 
 
 1845 
 
 4 „ 
 
 24 Dec. „ 
 
 Decree of Courts bel'.w leversed after 
 
 
 
 
 two remands in 1840 and 1844 
 
 Uncertain 
 
 Above J5 „ 
 
 64. That the above extracts are from cases first exhibiting the dates of the original suits; 
 and they disclose a principal feature of the progress of civil suils, viz., a remand to the 
 inferior courts tor re-investigation and decision de novo, sometimes causing tlie litigation to 
 be re-cpened ab initio, and involving a second course of appeal ; and, although in these 
 cases a portion of th-.' stamp dues is remitted, still the pleaders must be paid, and other 
 disbursements incurred, besides the fatigite and was'e of time in journeying between the 
 several courts, which, added to the uncertain and distant prospective of the final issue, are 
 so harassing to body, mind, and pocket, that it would frequently be preferable to the suc- 
 cessful party to have abandoned his rights, rather than to have exposed himself to the 
 annoyance, expense, and interminable troubles of the Company's courts of law. And under 
 all tluse considerations it will he obvious to your Honourable House, that where the value 
 of the yjropcrty in dispute is irifling, the lawful claimant would choose rather to forfeit his 
 claim than prosecute it at an exjiense beyond its worth ; and when the property is large, 
 the heavy institution fee must act as a bar to tlie man of small means seeking the recovery 
 of his rii^hts by the appalling process of the courts of the Company; your petitioners con- 
 sequently pray that trial at bar may be granted on a fixed day, with immediate decision, 
 instead of an examination of witnesses from day to day, as they may dilay their ajjptarance ; 
 and shorter modes of executing the deciees. 
 
 65. That great as are the evils of delay and expenditure, another, scarcely less foniiidable, 
 is to be found in ilie imperftciness of the machineiy, to wliicli, in point of tact, the two first 
 nuntiontd evils principally owe their origin ; and consisting in the absence of sound judicial 
 cajjaciiy in the presiding officers, especially those of the lower triliuiials; srarcely one ot 
 whom has even a mo(ierate actjuaintaiice of the vernacular language of the distiict in which 
 he exercises his f'untfions, has previ(<usly devoted any jiortion of his time to the study ol 
 jin-isprudence, or experiemed even a limited training in a judicial court; and this evil is 
 iuriher augi'avated by the injudicious nuinner in W' icii they are appointed or removed, 'i'he 
 heads of the judicial cnuits are in a state of perpetual transition ; when one of them goes 
 away liora his post he is generally replaced, ad interim, by the judge of another court, 
 whose post also receives a temporary incumbent from a thiid court ; and so on in a greater 
 or less ramifi(ation of changes; all leaving many suits pending which have bei.n partially 
 heard by each of the judges prior to his temporary transition. Wheie these aie intricate, 
 the locum tcnens usually allows them to lie over till the return of his predecessor; or, if 
 the current business cannot be delayed, they are imperfectly investigated and hurriedly dis- 
 j)Osed of, manifestly to the prejudice of the suitor in either case. 
 
 66. That the indifiertnce of the local government to the interests of the suitors in their 
 courts is further apparent, from the circumstance that a party acquainted with the native 
 language o! one district is appointed to another with the vernacular of which he is wholly 
 
 0.10. 3 N unacqtiamted
 
 46o APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7 . unacquainted ; and one instance has lately occurred where Mr. * * who is acquainted 
 L ' with Tamil only, was appointed to the Telugu district of Vizagapatam, where the adminis- 
 tration, as governor's agent, of both civil and criminal justice devolves on him; while Mr. 
 * *, acquainted with Telugu, was transferred from Cuddapah, a district in which that 
 language is spoken, to Chini;leput, with tlie vernacular of which district he is totally unac- 
 quain'.ed. The consequence of such appointments and exchanges is, that the judge is 
 necessarily thiown into the hands of the subordinates of his new court, at whose mercy the 
 suitors find themselves almost enliiely placed, with all the pernicious eflects resulting from 
 such an anomalous position. 
 
 67. That in connexion with the injudicious appointments to which your Petitioners have 
 referred in the preceding paragraph, they beg leave to exemplify to your Honourable House 
 a few recent and striking instances. In 1847 Mr. * * was appointed a judge of the 
 Sudr Adawlul, the highest court of appeal in this Presidency, when the whole of his expe- 
 rience in the judicial hue — and that nnie years previously — amounted to no more than five 
 years and three months. In 1847 Mr. * * who had been eight years, nine months, 
 and twenty days in the same line, his whole period of civil service being only seventeen 
 years, was sent as commissioner to Kiirnool, such being chiefly a revenue appointment; and 
 subsequently, in 1850, as collector of Salem; while Mr. * * only eleven months in the 
 judicial line, saving a litile experience while commissioner in Kurnool, was nominated civil 
 judge of Combaconum, one of the most frequented courts in this Presidency, in 1850 
 Mr. * * wiio had never done a day's duty as a judicial officer, was made civil judge 
 (an appellate office, and with unliniited jurisdiction as a court of the first instance) of the 
 impoitant district of Coimbatore. 
 
 68. That as regards removals your petitioners will instance the case of Mr. * * 
 judge of the Sudr Adawhit, who, in 1850, was ordered to proceed as a commissioner to 
 Ceylon, to investigate some matter concerning a military officer (in which the people of this 
 Presidency had no interest whatever), and during whose absence suits, partially investigated 
 by him, could not be disposed of, to the injury of the suitors therein, and in one case to 
 a suitor's utter ruin from the delay; on which occasion Mr. * * who, out of a civil 
 service of twenty-two years, had passed less than two years in the judicial line, and that 
 also very long ago, was temporarily appointed to the place of Mr. * * ; and they will 
 also quote that of Mr. * * who was taken from his seat on the Sudr bench in this year 
 to proceed on a government mission into Malabar, on which he has tiow been absent nine 
 months, and with the usual consequence of all suits examined or acted on by himself 
 being suspended until his (uncertain) return; while, to conclude, the general character 
 of the Company's judicial service with its common appellation in this country it is 
 a "refuge for the destitute," all those peisons who are too incompetent for the revenue 
 department, being transformed into judges and dispensers of the criminal and civil law of 
 the Mofussil. 
 
 69. Your petitioners, win n thus submitting to your Honourable House the grievances 
 endured by the people of this Presidency in the administration amongst them of civil law, 
 aie unable to lay down what might be deemed a fitting remedy; but they may respect- 
 fully, yet earnestly, press upon the consideration of your Honourable House, that the evil 
 of delay acknowledged to exist in 1814 is still unri-menicd, and that a more summary adju- 
 dication of civil suits than can now be obtained is essential for the welfiire, comfort, and 
 happiness of the people; that tl)is cannot be obtained without altering the present system of 
 jippeals; that in doing away with much of these appeals it is indispensable that the courts 
 having summary and final jurisdiction should be piesided over by two or more trained, 
 experienced, and legally qualified judges ; and that experience shows such heads of couits 
 are not to be found in tlie civil servants of the East India Company, while, as at 
 present, untrained and not specially educated for such responsible situations. Your 
 petitioners would also suggest the propriety, amounting almost to necessity, of the class 
 of superior judges being rendered incapable of displacement at the mere pleasure of the 
 local government, in order to insure impartiality and justice in their decisions, especially in 
 cases where the East India CoiUjiany or the local governinent are pirties to the causes to 
 be adjudicated. 
 
 70. That besides the better training and more thorough education of the judges in a 
 course of legal knowledge, your petitioners beg for a complete reformation in the practice of 
 pleading, so that vakeels and pleaders may likewise be previously suiijecied to a course of 
 sound and thorough instructit)n, and obtain licence to plead only upon regular Certificates 
 granted by tlie Sudr Adawlut, in regard to the necessity of which your petitioners beg to 
 quote the language of the despatch already referred to, in paragraph (i2. 
 
 "22. The defective and superficial acquaintance of the vakeels themselves with the 
 Kegidations, and ilieir general inaptitude lor the discharge of their duties, has long been the 
 theme of complaint on the part of our servants under llie Bengal Presidency, as well as by 
 Colonel Leith, who was employed under your government in framing the original code of 
 laws and Regulations, and who has, in his letter to the Chairman to the Co irt of Directors, 
 of the 2.'>th .laiuiary 1808, of which we formerly iransmiltod you a copy, expressed his 
 fpinion on the subject of ihe vakeels, in terms which have paiticiilarly attracted our atten- 
 tion. There is perhaps (he says) no part of the judicial system which has been attended 
 with woise conseiiuenccs than the vakeel branch of it. They are, in genera!, extremely 
 
 illiterate.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. ^Gi 
 
 iJliterale, and their situation s>ivcs them various opportunities of commiltintr abuses wliicli Aiiimidix, No. 7; 
 
 are not easily detrctccl. In particular they have been accused of ijronmting litit^ation, liy 
 
 holding ibrth false jironiises of success to their clients. Their habits of intercourse with tlie 
 natives, and their beinjr, iu a manner, the only persons who are acquainted with the Reiiulu- 
 tions, makes it easy for them to do so. I do not hesitate in sayinjj that one great cause of 
 the htigation and delay in law-suits has arisen from the native pleatlers. 
 
 " 23. Your Board of Revenue also, in the report to wiiich we have already referred, have 
 distincily averred thai the licensino- of pleaders in vakeels had led to a series of fraud and 
 corruption in the zillah and provincial courts, and they therefore recommend that in the 
 revenue courts, which it was then in contemplation to establish at the Presidency, ' plcadin'^ 
 ore tenus should be adopted, instead of petitions, replicat'ons, and rejoinders.' We llure- 
 fore direct you to instruct the courts of Sudr Dewanny and Nizamut Adawint, and the 
 infeiior courts, to couimuiiicate their ideas on Ibis subjtct, and that you do tiiereupon revise 
 the respective powers, together with ihe foruis of process in both departments, witli the view 
 of rendering the proceedings in civil cases as summary as may be compatible with the ends 
 of subbtantial justice ;" and to inform your Honourable House liiat all things above noticed 
 as injurious to suiiois, arising from the isinorance and dishonesty of the vakeels, are as bad 
 and common now as they were when Colonel Leith recorded his opinion. 
 
 71. That sliould it seem good to your Honourable House to do away with the oppressive 
 system of ryotwar, and substitute in its place the ancient village system of the country, 
 referred toiii a former pait of this petiiion, your peiitioners pray that it may be restored in 
 its integrity; the potail or iiead of the village and his village servants being invested with 
 the superintendence of the local police, an appeal against his proceedings to the courts of 
 justice being allowed ; the institution of the village punchayet, which is now only optional, 
 being rendeied imperative, and composed of respectable ryots to be selected by the villageis 
 in monthly rotation, the jiunchayet to take cognizance ol civil causes for sini|)le debt up to 
 loo rupees, with the power of passing a tinal decision when the amount does not exceed 20 
 rupees. 
 
 72. That a district punciiayrt be formed for a certain number of villages, the members 
 being elected annually by rotation, having jurisdiction in suits to the extent of 500 rupees, to 
 wliich appeals may be carried from the village punchayets in all cases within their cogni- 
 zance above 20 rupees, and that an office of reijistry be established in each village, in com- 
 munication with the collector's cutcherry, for the prevention of frauds. And your petitioners 
 beg to refer your Honourable House to t!ie 48th and following paragrapiis of the same 
 judicial letter from the Court of Directors to this Government, for a full and favouiable 
 account of the punchayet system, to which they have adverted ; the paragraphs being too 
 many to be quoted at length within the com()ass of this petition. 
 
 73. Thai the criminal courts of the Company are on a par with the civil courts; the 
 judges being without any distinct legal training, excepting what is 10 be obtained in the 
 revenue department, where they have all previously held the appointment of magistrate and 
 justice of the peace ; and although they have legulations furnished for their guidance, 
 framed by the Sudr Adawlut, the members of which are persons selected firm their own 
 body, and whose whole stock of judicial information is derived from their experience in 
 more subordinate situations, their proceedings are too frequently heterogeneous and based 
 upon misapprehension of the regulations, and their insufficiency may be inferred from the 
 facts that, in the year 1850, the latest date to which your petitioners have access, in one 
 district, that of Rajahmundry, the disproportion of the persons punished to the number 
 summoned was nine per cent, of the former to ninety-one per cent, of the latter, one hundred 
 men liavino' been brought up for every ii'ne that were convicted ; in other districts the ratio 
 has been in some seventeen percent., and in others ten per cent., while the average ratio in 
 all the districts throughout the Presidency showed that tiie number brought up to the magis- 
 trate was twice that of the convicted parties; and these inconveniences, aniounting very 
 generally to injuries, are chiefly occasioned by the Euioptan magistrates giving their princijial 
 attention to their revenue duties, leaving those of the magistracy to be performed by their 
 subordinates. That in twodistricts alone, liiose of Coaibacoiuim and Tinnevelly, the number 
 of individuals against whom the chariics were declared to be wilfully false and malicious was 
 2,0G4 ; while the number of persons punished for biinging those charges was no more than 
 136. In the whole Presidency, lor petty offences before the police, 51,(>02 persons were 
 detained for periods running from three days to sixty and upwards, of whom 11,823 were 
 detained above thirty days; and as the number punished altogether was only 45,829, it 
 (bllovvs that many were detained who were not offenders. Again, it is to be remarked, that 
 12,543 persons were detained from three to upwards of thirty days for crimes and misde- 
 meanors, w hile the provisions of clause 4, section 27, Regulation X I. of 1810, limit the time 
 for inquiry to forty-eight hours. 
 
 74. That these few facts, taken from the report of the Foujdaree Adawlut, sufEciently 
 demonstiute tlie ill-working of that part of the administration of criminal justice which is 
 entrusted to ihe police; much of which might be remedied if the magisterial power were 
 taken away from the collectors and their subordinates, who have full enqjloyment for all 
 iheirtime and talents in the performance of their duties conmcted with the collection of the 
 revenue ; and on account of which, as above remarked, they depute so much of their luiic- 
 tior.s connected with the police to the tehsildars ; that, although your petitioners cannot 
 
 0,10. 3 K i distinctly
 
 462 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. distinctly discover, from the report of tlie Foujdaree Adawlut, tlie individual crimes of ihe 
 ^~~ accused parties in tlie police cases, they are yet perfectly sure that the far greater portion 
 
 have been made to arise from the demands for the revenue ; the tehsildars being aide, in 
 their magisterial capacity, to trump up false accusations, and to involve any number of 
 peisons in their charges; this circumstance accounts for the number of parties 
 brought up to the police who were uliimately disciiarged ; for the admitted number 
 of false and malicious charges; for the paucity of punishments affecting the authdrs of the 
 charges; and for the numerous detentions in violation of the Regulations: besides this, the 
 police being all under the collector, and always more attentive to the exaction of the revenue 
 than to the preservaiinn of the lives and propetty of ihe people, — the natural consequence is 
 that burglaiies, highway and gang robberies are more or less prevalent in every district; 
 which could not be the case if the police were ifticient and performed its proper duty, 
 Your pctiiioners pray, therefore, that this anomalous state of things may be rectified; 
 that the police may be made a separate department, as it was before the Regulation of 
 1816; and thai it aiay be enlarged to the extent necessary for the effective protection of 
 the country. 
 
 75, That the " Select Reports of Criminal Cases." determined by the same court, afford 
 abundant instances uf the ill-working of that part of the administration which is committed 
 to the higher class of criminal judges, of whicli your petitioners will briefly quote a few 
 cases. At Masulipatam, at the third quarterly session of 1838, a person named Kota 
 Ramndu and fifteen others were tried for gang robbery and murder, in an attack on the 
 talook t'easury at Ellore, two of whom were convicted and sentenced to lourleen years' hard 
 labour ni irons; on the case coming before the Foujdaree Adawhii the sentence was changed 
 into tiansportation for life; subsequentlv to whicli, further evidence was produced, which 
 the said court considered conclusive as to the innocence of the condemned partiis, and 
 orders were given for their release, but in the interval one had died at the place of his trans- 
 portation, the oilier was brought back, and, 10 quote the language of the repoits, a "present 
 of money was brsiowed upon him by Government by way of compensation lor the haidsiiip^ 
 he had undergone." At Coin.batore, in October 1845, Ramadattan an^i four others were 
 tried for nuirdt r, when the session ji:dge convicted iliein all, and recommended thai they 
 should be severally sentenced tode^th. In this ritommendation, the first and third puisne 
 judges of the Foujdaree Adawlut, Mr. * * and Mr. * *, coincided, but the second 
 judge, Mr. * *, expressed his conviction that the murder had been perpetrated by t«o 
 of the witnesses, and proposed that the trial should be laid before the chief judge, Mr. 
 
 * *, who concurreil with Mr. * *, when an atlditional judge, Mr. * *, was 
 appointed to go into the case, and lie concurring' with Mr. * * and Mr. * *, the 
 prisoners were acquitied, and the s( ssion j'luge was reproved for not having properly 
 attended to the RegulatiohS. In June 1848, Madiga Potaraza K ura Tippadu and two others 
 were tried in Kurnool, bct'oie the agent to the Governor of Foit St. George, on the charge 
 of murder. The agent convicted Madiga, and recomuiended that he should be hanged, nn(l 
 tliat the stcond prisoner should give secuiity. The court of Foujdaree Adawlut considered 
 "the evidence too weak and inconclusive for the conviction of, or even lor a requisition of 
 security from, any oltlie prisoners charged ;' acquitted Marliga, dir. clmg his uncomlitioiial 
 release, and issued oiders for the annulment of ilic requisition of sccuriiy uniltr which the 
 second jnisoner bad been placed. Alt' r this sentence of acquittal iiad been passed by the 
 Foujdaree Adawlut, the agent received information that the commi-ston ol' the murder had 
 been perpetiated by an unsuspected person named Satijivigadu, who bad confessed his guilt 
 and surrendered him-elf to the police. The agent of the Governor at this period was 
 Mr. * *, whose eleven years of judicial experience would h.ive hanged three innocent 
 persons, upon evidtnce insufTicieiit to dciinind a requisition of security from any one of 
 them. In August 1850, Goviiid Row vv.is tried at Coiinbatore for intiider and tobbery. 
 " Tlie session judge, Mr. * *, in concurrence with the Maliomedan law officer, cousi- 
 deied the evidence to be conclusive as to the prisoner's guilt, and rcfentd the trial tor the 
 * final judgment of the Foujdaree Adawlut, with a ri commendation that he should be sentenced 
 
 to suffer deal]).'' The Court observed that the examination was defective, and tli.it there 
 weie discrepancies and omissions in the evidence for the prosecution which vitiated the 
 proof of several circumstances. Tlicy accordingly acquitted the prisoner of the crime 
 charged, but ordered that he should find two securities in fif.y rupees (_o /.) eacii, for good 
 behaviour and appearance when required within three years. 
 
 7«. That your petitioners leslrict themselves to these four cases, because they are desirous 
 not to lengthen their petition unnecessarily ; but they would request the attention of your 
 Honourable House to the last instance quoted, it having come under the cognizance of 
 Mr. * *, the officer whom your petitioners have mcmioned in an earlier paragiaph, as 
 having been appointed judge at Coimbaiore, without having ever done a day's duty as a 
 jud.cial officer. It is not, therefore, surprising that his examinations should exhibit discre- 
 pancies, defects, and omissions, nor that he should be obliged to lean on the Mahomedan 
 law ofliicer for support and guidance; vxhicli would have cost the prisoner his life except for 
 the interference of the superior court; uhen Mr. * * could go as far wrong as he, 
 altera duly of eleven years in the judicial department. 
 
 77. T! at these four instances are enough to show the absolute iicccssitv for a change in 
 the judicial system as regards the appointment of judges holding jurisdiction over the lives 
 "and pcisons of Her Majesty's subjects in this Presidency; and your petitioners may desire 
 a' change in the laws or Regulations also, by the introduction of a better code than that of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEimiTOIlIES. 
 
 4«3 
 
 tlic Maliomcdans ; by wliicli, to iiMme only one paiticuhir, adultery is made a c'linrnal Appendix No. 7. 
 
 oU'ence; whereas by English and Hindu law it is one of civil action for pecuniary damages. 
 
 A comprehensive code, published in Ei)t;lish, and iranalatcd for the infttrmation of tiie public, 
 would do away vviih the neccssiiy of mufloes or Mahoniedan law officers ; while the restric- 
 tion (if judicial employmeiu to a separate class of persons, trained to an acfjuiintaiice with 
 it, both by iheory and pr.ictice, would render the judges at home in ihcir own courts, and 
 instil a confidence anmnii; the peo|)le which is, and must ever be, wanting in the Regulations 
 and judges of the Company as at present constituted. 
 
 78. That great inconvenience is continually resulting lo the people from the impossibility I'ul'lic Records, 
 of getting access to the public records and documents of the various offices, of which your 
 
 petitioners will s^ive two or three instances. In the year 1846, the Hindu community for- 
 warded to the Court of Directors, through the local government, a memorial, the recei|)t of 
 which w.is acknowlediied by the chief secretary, with the remark that the memorialists 
 ought to " refiiiin liom i'epiesent;itioiis touching tlie pi<iceedings of Cjoveininnt, whilst the 
 facts and official dociiinents which alone contain the true recortl of these lacts are unknown 
 to them;" :inil «heii,<)n this intimation, an ;ipplication was made f)r certain information 
 connected with a second memorial then in course of preparation, the same chief secretary 
 replied that the applicaticm was irregular, and instead of supplying the information, reTerred 
 them to the former letter. In the present year the Madras Native A>sociation applied for 
 access to official data, necessary to enable them to draw up thii petition to your Honour- 
 able House, when no notice was vouchsafed to their application; and, lastly, about five 
 months ago, on the !)th July, application was made on behalf of the iiieinorialists for the 
 second time, requesting lo be informed if the orders of the Court of Directors — which the 
 Government had stated in reply to a previous application it was then awaiting, in conse- 
 quence of the Court's despatch not lieing suffieieiitiv explicit — had been received ; and if so, 
 that they might be communicated to the memorialists: the chief secreiary ordered it to be 
 recorded, but has given no answer up to the present date. There are also innumerable 
 instances in which natives accused to their superiors of misconduct, are consiantly refused 
 copies of office documents by which to establish their defence and free themselves fiom 
 false accusations. Your petitioners therefore request that p irties en making application 
 may be entitled to take or to receive copies of such papers as they may wish to possess for 
 such purposts; as well as that all official papers of general interest may be printed for sale 
 at cost price : by this piaetice the Government would be considerable gaineis, as its acts 
 and the leasons of tiiem would thereby he rendered public, together with their aitendant 
 circumstances; a^id they would no longer be subject to misrepresentation and misconsti iie- 
 tion, as they are, and must continue to be, under tlie operation of the present system of 
 ofHcial secrecy. 
 
 79. That your i)etiti"ners will next adveit to the state of national education in this Pre- Education, 
 sidency, in the hope that ycmr Honourable House will take measures for enloicing the 
 obedience of the local government to such future Regulations as the wisdom of your Honour- 
 able House may lay down fur its guiJance in the time to come. Your petitioners will 
 
 trace the suliject no further backwards than to the year 182fi, when S;r Thomas Munro, 
 beino- Governor, proposed in a minute, dated lOth March, that the system of native educa- 
 tion >hould ri-ceive assistance Irom the State, which siKudd be small at first, but increasing 
 .gradually till it extended to the formation of 40 coUectorate schools, and 300 lehsildary 
 Bchools lor the entire Presidency, the estimated expense, when in complete operation, being 
 calculated at 48,000 rupees. The Court of Directors, in a despatch, dated the 16th April 
 1828, siinciioind ihe annual appropriation of 30,000 rujiees for this purpose; and immedi- 
 ately on the receipt of this sanction the proposed plan was put into partial operation, and 
 Ci.ntinued till the year 1834, when the Colleue Board lor Native Instruetioii declared it a 
 great failure. On this the Government proposed a modification of the plan, extending the 
 expenditure to J)0,000 rupees, which on being referred to the Supreme Government was dis- 
 approved of by iliat authority, which recommended an effective seminary at Madras for 
 instruction in English, and piovincial English schools, as far as the allowed funds should 
 be available. From this time prujecls were funned but not cairied into eflPecl, till, on the 
 12th December 1839, the Government deemed it expedient to establish a c-entral collegiate 
 institution at Madras, which was to be self-supporting, by means of public donations and 
 the exaction dt fees Irom the pup 1-. The instiiution was opened on the 14th April 1841, 
 when it was publicly stati d thiit, should it •' appear to answer its design, and require in its 
 early existence some small peciiniiiry help at the hands of Goverment, the School Board 
 would "recommend with confidence its' intnesis to the Government ;" but no donations being 
 fbrihcoming, and the iiuniber of pupils few, from that period to the present, the annual sum 
 of fiom 26,000 rupees to 30,000 lupets has been regularly granted to the institution. 
 
 80. That it will thus be apparent that, instead of education being shared equally among 
 all the districis of the Presidency, it is confined altogether to the town of Madias, in which 
 a single school, attended hy 160 ]uipils, on tlie avera<:e of its ten years' existence, absorbs 
 more than one-half of ihe grant awarded for the entire population of twenty-two millions, 
 while the other half of the grant has lain useless in the Government treasury ever since the 
 grant was in existence. 
 
 81. That while the Piesidency of Bombay, with a population of tun millions, and instead 
 of yielding a surplus revenue, has a di ficieiu y of 50 lacs of rupees annually, enjoys a graut 
 of a Inc and a quarter of rupees, and communicates instruciion at 185 schools, fvequenied 
 
 0.10. 3 N 3 by
 
 464 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. by 12,712 pupils, Madras, with her actual surplus revenue of 73 lacs 01" rupees, and more 
 
 than twice the population, is siinted to two-fifths of the amount, and by the parsimony and 
 
 indecision of her local government, has been deprived ofone-lialf of even this small allow- 
 ance ever since ilie grant was made by the Court of Directors. 
 
 8-2. That your petitioners desire from your Honourable House the increase of this grant 
 proportionately to the number of the population, and the establishment of efBcient schools 
 throughout all the districts of the Presidency, their number and location to be totally irre- 
 spective of the schools established by the various missionary societies for the purposes of 
 conversion ; and, as the English language is at present but very little known in ihe interior, 
 they desire that the teaching of the vernaculars, instead of being neglected as at the Presi- 
 dency, shall meet with the attention they so greatly need, and to thai end that provision be 
 made for the translation of useful and scientific works from the English, for which special 
 purpose there could be appropriated the eii;ht lacs of rupees now lying in the Government 
 treasury, and being the remaining surplus of the pagoda funds or revenues accruing to the 
 Hindu temples whilst under the management of Government officers. 
 
 83. That with reference to the subject of national education, your petitioners are anxious 
 to brinf to the notice of your Honourable House certain proceedings which are now in train, 
 in order to appropriate part of the educational grant towards the assistance of missionary 
 or convertismg operations, as they exist at various stations throughout this Presidency, 
 under the name of a " Grant-in-aid System," by which it is proposed to extend the 
 pecuniary assi.^tance of Government " to other institutions which are now or can be made 
 the instruments of imparting a sound and liberal education, whether conducted by missionary 
 bodies or others;" with which view the Government has issued a circular in the Public 
 Department to the different collectors, in which each is directed to " furnish the Govern- 
 ment with the best and fullest information in your power regarding the educational insti- 
 tutions within your district, whether conducted by private parties, or mission iry or other 
 public bodies;'' and has further recorded in Minutes of Consultation, dated 1st November 
 1852, " The Governor in Council is not of opinion that any Government schools should 
 be set up at stations in ihe provinces where private missionary or other public seminaries 
 have already been established, and have been found adequate to the instruction of the 
 people. To that opinion he will now add, that he considers it very desiralile to extend 
 moderate pecuniary assistance to such schools, as a moans of diffusing education on sound 
 and unexceptionable principhs, and he proposes that the honourable Court be solicited to 
 entrust the Government with a discretionary power on this point." 
 
 84. That your petitioners would point out for the consideration of your Honourable 
 House that this proposed appropriation of the education funds to the support of Christian 
 institutions was rejected by the Court of Directors in a despatch to this Government, dated 
 24th August 1844, in reply to an official application in behalf of an institution at the Pre- 
 sidency, called " Bishop Corrie's Grammar .School," on the ground that it did not come 
 " within the object of the funds set apart for the promotion of native education." There 
 is also on record a letter of the Court of Directors with reference to the introduction of 
 the Bible as a class-book into the schools to be established from those funds, which says, 
 " The provincial schools and the Madras University are intended for the especial instruc- 
 tion of the Hindoos and Mahomedans in the English language and tlie sciences of Europe ; 
 we cannot consider it either expedient or prudent to intioduce any branch of study which 
 can in any way interfere with the religiuus feelings and opinions of the people. AH such 
 tendency has been carefully avoided at both the other Presidencies, where native education 
 has been successfully |)rosecuted. We direct you therefore to refrain from any departure 
 from the practice hitherto pursued." 
 
 85. That your petitioners hereupon represent 10 your Honourable House, if it be con- 
 trary to the intentions for which the educational grant was bestowed, to devote any portion 
 of it in aid of an institution where convertism is neither professed nor practised, as at Bishop 
 Corrie's Grammar School, or to permit the establishment of a Bible class in any of the 
 Government schools, although the attendance at such class was to be left entirely o])tional 
 with the pupils, it would be a much wider divergence from the object, and a much greater 
 " interference with the religious feelings and opinions of the pei>ple," to apply tli(f funds 
 especially at the iliscretion of the Madras Governmciii, at all times notorious lor its prose- 
 lyiiug propensities, in support of missionaiy institutions, wherein the study of the Bible is 
 not 0])tional but compulsory, and which arc avowedly set on fool and maintained for the 
 single object of couvertising the pupils, to whom on that account education is imparted 
 free of charge; and your petitioners conceive that the support of sucii institutions by the 
 Government would be productive of the worst conpequence~, as it would distinctly identify 
 the ruling authorities with the one grand object of such schools, the proselytism of the 
 natives; liie only didi'ience between which and the undisguised practice of convertism in 
 tlie schools sup|)orle(l solely by the State would amount to this : — Government would pay 
 twice the price for a convert of its own direct making which it would have to jiay under 
 the " Grant-in-aid " to the seminaries of the missionaries ; at the same time it would place 
 itself at the head of all the missionary societies in tiie Presidency, doubling their pecuniary 
 resources, enaliling them to increase the nuiuber of their ao,enls, and to extend ilieir cou- 
 vertising operations, exactly in proportion to the " discretionary power" with which this 
 government, in the Minutes above quoted, desires to be cntruslod. 
 
 (Jg. That
 
 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 4G5 
 
 8(5. Tliat your )icti'.ioners cannot avoid remarkinr;:, tliat tlie desire of the Madras Govern- Appcniii No. -. 
 
 meiit with regard to rendering the educational Anuls conimitted to its trust subservient to - 1* ' 
 
 tlie purposes of prosclyiisni, is of some stnndiiig. The Marquis of Twceddale, while enter- 
 taining; the projjo-ition of the Council of E-Jucation, to adopt the Bible as a class-book 
 recorded liis a|)pr()baiion of the measure, observinp;, in a Minute daied t!ie '24th Au"ust 
 18-40, "The vakie of a religious and practical education to fit our countryrn<n for the 
 various duties of life has been e-.tablislicd beyond ail doubt;" and again, "'I'lie reports 
 and coinplainls so constantly made to Government against the integrity of the native ser- 
 vants arc sufficient evidence that something is wanting to ensure a faithful service from them-" 
 and again, " It requires a more solid foundation than is to be found in the Hindu or Maho- 
 niedan faiths to bear the change which learning operates on the mind of those who are 
 placed by their superior ability in responsible situations in the employ of Government." And 
 the present Go\ernor in Council in his Minute, approving of ilie "Grant-in-aid" to the 
 missionaries, has deemed it e^Kpcdient to lecoid, "Although it is perhaps not immediately 
 relevant to the subject of these proceednigs, yet as it is a momentous point in lookmo-at the 
 general question of education to the natives, the Governor in Council is compelled to state, 
 both from observation and sedulous inquiry, that he has arrived at tlie conclusion that the 
 people of this part of India, at least, have neither by any means had their minds expanded 
 and enlarged to the degree that might have been anticipated through the instruction and 
 care that has been bestowed upon thfni, nor has he seen any sufficient reason to indulge 
 » belief that their innate prejudices have been removed or even lessened, or their moral 
 character and sense of veracity, integrity, and proper principle improved. He does not deny 
 but that there may be occasional bright exceptions; but he is of opinion that, whatever 
 system of education may be enforced hereafter, its chief aim ought to be directed to moral 
 improvement, conibined with extirpating the foul vices of untruthfulness and dishonesty, 
 which arc hardly now held by the great masses to be a reflection, unless discovered." 
 
 87. That your petitioners do not consider this the proper place to remark upon the gratui- 
 tous insult ottered to their whole community by the Government, in recording such an 
 opinion for the sole purpose of transmission to the governois of the Madras University, one- 
 half of whom, to the number of seven, are natives, under its constitution; but ihey besj to 
 observe that it ill becomes the Government to taunt the natives with " the instruction and 
 care that has been bestowed on them," whilst it has for so many years declined disbursing 
 one-half of the educational grant, and contented itself with keeping up a school of 160 
 pupils, tstablished so far from the town of Madras as to make it inconvenient for persons to 
 send their children, besides charging a school fee beyond the means of payment by the 
 masses: and when, besides this ill- located and over-charging institution, tliere is not a 
 government school over all the 140,000 square miles comprising the Madras lenitories. 
 
 88 
 
 rather loa 
 
 That the sweeping condemnation, if it be justly founded, which your petitioners ate 
 ...u..^. loath to believe, seeing that Sir Henry Pottinger has never been known to mix w'itli 
 the natives, except now and then when he may have presided at the armual university exami- 
 nations, and other such meetings, and with the servants of his household, exhibit the fallacy 
 of both the past and present governments, in imagining the study of the Bjble to be a panacea 
 for the " vices of untruthfulness and dishonesty;" for, as the whole of the instruction and 
 care bestowed on the natives, beyond that bestowed upon the KiO pupils of the university, 
 has been missionary care and instruction, devoted to the study of the Bible, and that in the 
 proportion of thousands to lens, it must be apparent that the "sound and unexceptionable 
 principles " adverted 10 in the minute, have done literally nothing for the " moral improve- 
 ment" of the pupils into whose minds they have been so sedulously instilled, and therelore 
 there can be no valid reason lor extending a " grant-in-aid " to institutions which have thus 
 essentially failed ; but thtre is a very strong reason against such aiil being given, in order to 
 assist in the conversion of th.e people, with whose religious feelings and opinions lire Court 
 of Directors has so frequently pledged itself not to interfere; and with regard to which the 
 present Chailer Act, passed by the Imperial l^arliament, enacts and requires, that the 
 Governor-gent r.d in Council shall by laws and legulations provide for the protection of the 
 natives vvithin the British territories from insult and outrage in their persons, religions, or 
 opinions. 
 
 89. That your petit'oners being aivare, from several sources, tliat both the Anglic an and rimrch Estnblish- 
 Scoitish state churches are making great t tt'orts, both in this country and in England, for an ment. 
 increase of clergymen ujion their respective establishments in India, respectfully, but most 
 ileterminately, remoiisiiate against any increase to either. They admit the propriety of mili- 
 tary eha|)lains for the European troops, but repudiate the injustice of the people of this 
 country being compelled to support a couple ot stale e stablislimenls, for a mere handful of 
 foreigners, professors of a Ibreign creed ; and, while they will not object to tlie number of 
 clergy already in the country, they desire to see them appropriated entirely to the military 
 eervice, and that whatever augmentation be needed, the requisite funds shall be provided by 
 the individuals by whom such services may be requested. Tlie community to which your 
 petitioners belong supports its own religion ; so do the Mahomedans and the various 
 dissenters from the Church of England at this Presitlency ; even the Anglicans have coui- 
 menced tudo the same, and justice demands that they should be left as much to themselves 
 as all other sects are ; and your peiiiioners earnestly pray your Hunnniable House that the 
 j>eople of this countiy may be no further taxed for the maintenance of a number of indi\iduals 
 
 0.10. 3 N 4 «ho
 
 466 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FRO.M THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 
 
 Legislative 
 Counci 
 
 who are of no eartlily use to them ; but that their expenses may be bnrne wholly and solely 
 by those persons lo whom their miiiistralioiis are neces--ary f>iid acceptable. 
 
 Exorbitant and ill- oo. That your petitioners would be wantino- in their duty towards the entire Hindu 
 used power of the community, from one i nd of India to the otiier, if they omitted to complain to your Honour- 
 • •■ - ■ able Hou-e rcspec.lint;' the enojmous power granted to the Governor-general in Council, and 
 
 the unjust partiality with which that power has been exercised, in what it has been pleased 
 to lerm ihe Lex Loci, by which is meant nn enactment subveriing in one of its most essential 
 and venerated points the Hindu knv of inheritance, guaranteed to tliem on various occasions 
 by the local government and tiie Court of Directors, and further sanctioned and secured to 
 them t.y special Act of Parliament, 21 Geo. 3, c. 70, whicii provides that the " inheritance 
 and succession to lands, rents, goods, &c., shall be deteimined, in the case of Mahomedans, 
 by the laws and usages of the Mahomedans; and in the case of Gentus, by the laws and 
 usages of Gentus; and where only one of the parties sliall be a iMahomedan or Gentu, by 
 the laws and usages of the defendant:" and again, "that all tlie rights and anthoriiies of 
 fathers of families, and master^ of families, according as the same might liave been exer- 
 cised by the Gentu or Mahouiedan law, shall be preserved to ihem respectively wiihin their 
 said families." 
 
 91. That the subversionof the rights thus guaranteed by the Indian and home authorities^ 
 as well as by the Imperial ParliamenI, w;:s fiist openly attempted in ihe year 1845, when an 
 Act intituled the Lex Loci was drafted, and tiie diaft published, for general information, on 
 the 25lh January ; immediately ccmsequeiit ujion which publication, remonstrances from the 
 majority of the three Presidencies were sent up to the Supreme Government, and the Act did 
 not pass into law ; between that date and the year 1849, it was discoveied that, so far back, 
 as the year 1832, there had appeared in the middle ofa Bengal Regulation, about revenue 
 matters, zillah judges, moonsltfs, ameens, &c. i'cc., and consisting of 18 sections, a few lines, 
 forming section 9, directing that, " in civil suits wherein the ])ariies are of different religious 
 persuasions, the Mahomedan and Hindoo laws shill not be permitted to operate to deprive 
 of property to which, but for the operation of those law?, the parties would be entitled." 
 
 92. That this section, with whatever intentions it may have been oiiginally framed, never 
 had more than one instance of practical application during tiie 13 years subsequent to the 
 Regulation, viz. in May 1849, after the coriespondence on the Lex Loci had occasioned the 
 discovery that these sections wire in existence, and it was during all the previous time 
 unknown to the bulk of the population, whose attention was fir.-^t attracted to it by its repro- 
 duction in 1849, in order lo render it applicable to the whole of India. Tnatin rendering it 
 so applicable, the law mendur of the Legislative Council, Mr. Beihmie, recorded the following 
 tibservations, " I have prepared an Aci for this purpose, though with some lingering doubt of 
 the justice of the measure. According to Hindoo notions, the right which a son has to 
 succeed to his father's projierty is commensurate with his obligation to perform his funeral 
 obsequies, from which the ouicaste is necessarily excluded. Put the case of property 
 bequeallicd in England to a man on certain conditions, which conlitions he by his own 
 voluntary act renders himself incapable of performing, what should we say to a law which 
 nevertheless secures the property to him I" Mr. Dick, a judge of the Sudr Dewaimy Adaw- 
 lut, also recorded, "This Act diHeis essentially in piinciplc from Regulation VII., 1832, sec- 
 tion 9. 'J'hatdid not in any way interferiere with fire religion of ilie Hindoos; this does. 
 The law of inheritance of Hindoos is founded on their religion." 
 
 93. That, notwithstanding Mr. Bethune's confession of its injustice, and Mr. Dick's 
 remark that the Act proposed was so " issentially" different from the Uegulation, the Act 
 was determined upon by the four iBembcrs of Council, Messrs. Bethune, Littler, Carrie, 
 and Low is, and pa>scd into law under the declaration that it was merely the extension of the 
 principle of the Regulation from the Presidency of Bengal to all the territories sid)jeci to 
 the government of the East India Company, with the concurrence of the Governor-general, 
 Lord Daliioiisie, who recorded thai he could " see no semblance of interference with the 
 religion of the Hindoos, nor any unautliorized interference with rights secured to them." 
 
 94. That the Act thus passed in 1850 has been stretched, even beyond the principle on 
 whicii it was profssedly framed, by * * puisne judge of the Supreme Court of Judica- 
 ture at this Presidency, in the following instance. A niariied Ilindoo, named * *, 
 became the convert of a missionary agent, named * * , by which act the convert 
 renounced his caste, and thereby forfeited all clui n to his fmucr relationship, including 
 that to his wife, to whom by the Hindu law he became viitually dead, tind she herself bound 
 to perform his funeral obcsqiiies. 'I'he wife, adln ring to the faith of her country, lefuscd to 
 associate with him in his new conditi'jii, aiul remained with, her own relations for some time, 
 until she was ordered to appear in court, under a writ of habeas torpiis granted on the appli- 
 cation of the said * * , and served upon the woman's father, by whom the affidavit of 
 the convert stated that she was, against iicr will, detained. 
 
 95. That the return lo this writ was a denial by the father thai his dauiiliter was, or had 
 been, in his custody, and it was supported by an affidavit, ihat " neither he nor any one by 
 his order had ev(r exercised any Constraint over * * " iiis daugiitor. In the meantime, 
 however, * * had been inveigled to come into court at tiie persuasion of her father's 
 lej.'ai adviser, upon the false assurance that she would be permitted her free option of going 
 to her hiisbiind or returning to lier relations. She accordingly came forward on being 
 called lor, and alter counsel had been heaid on both sides, * * liavnig first reluseiJ 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMI'lTEE ON INDIAN TEIIRITOKIES. 467 
 
 the request of the fatlu-r's counsel " to asctrtain tlic wishes of thn girl," proceciled to AppttHlix, X 1. 
 
 give an elaborate opinion, concludini; with the assertion, that "the Act passed in IboO, in 
 
 this coiiniry, has swept away, as to all force in courts of law, that system in India whicli was 
 equally tvrannical and oppressive," and with this declaiatioti lie ordered * * to be deli- 
 vered over to the custody <if her luistmiid. " This order tor the d(!livery of * • to her 
 husband," your petitioners quote the words from a printed paini)hlet, entitled " Tlie Ca>eof 
 * * " edited and prefaced bv * * " was no sooner niadi; known to her, than she mani- 
 fested a decided iinwiihni;ne>s to be £;iven over, and on the approach of * * to take her 
 by tlie hand, she sharply repulsed him, saying, ' You have nothing to do with me.' At the 
 same time also her aunt, by whom she was accompanied, began 10 utter loud wailing and 
 lamentations, and cluni; to iier niece witli a view to prevent her being taken away. Even- 
 tually the judge was compelled to direct one of the officers of the court to separate * * 
 from * * , and to remove the latter to one of the r(;oms in the court, where * * joined 
 her. The scene was altogether most exciting. The wailing of the aunt and the screaming 
 of * * as she was being carried out of court canned painful sensations. Added to this, 
 the Brahmins and others jiresent, by their vociferations and gestures, exhibited tlie rage and 
 displeasure they lelt at the decision. For a time the tumult was so great as to wear a 
 threatening aspect, but, ihrougli tlie excellent manageiiieiit of the magistrate, Mr. * * 
 and his police, the place was cleared, and * * was conveved to Sullivan's Gardens in 
 safety." Sullivan's Gardens, your petitioners be^ to state, are the residence of the convert- 
 ing missionaiy, into whose carriage, atid witli whose assistance, she was violently thrust by 
 the otficeis of the couit, and whose prisoner * * remained till be had converted her, 
 and procured a government situation for her husband, which, being a very common mode 
 of eniicement practised by certain of the Conipanv's covenanted officials, was no doubt, 
 among others, an inducement that led * * to apostatize from the faith of Ins forefathers. 
 
 96. That this compulsory conversion of * * under the auspices of a judge already 
 notorious for carrying Iiis proselvting inclinations to the bench of the Supreme Court, and 
 there acting upon them, proves that, although * * could see " no semblance of intei- 
 ierence with the religion of the Hindoos," when be concurred in passing the Act of litoO, 
 it is, in point of fact, a ready and most powerful instrument of such interference, in the 
 hands of such judges as * * , under whose judicial opinion respectinj, its interpreta- 
 tion, with regard to " rights and property," the convert can not only claim and seize upon 
 property to which he has no title, except under the law winch declares his forfeiture oi it ; 
 but in all cases of coparceny-cases tliat more or less exist in every Hiiuin I'amily, he can 
 violate and trample upon the rights (dhis relations, by introducing himself into the pagodas, 
 choultrees, and houses, which are family propeity, claiming the full right to their ingress, 
 occupancy, and the share of their managemeni, and the direct and perpetual interference 
 witli all the social and religious privileges of the Hindus, from wliich he is shut out by the 
 law under which he obtained them, and to the enjoyment of which, to the annihilation of 
 that law, he is restored by the Act of I80O, as interpreted, laid down, and put in operation 
 by * *. 
 
 97. That vour petitioners cannot but consider the decision of * * as erroneous as 
 it is ivrannieal and oppressive; for in a more recent instance at Bombay, wherein a Hindu 
 convert sought to recover his wife by means of a habeas corpus, the Chief Justice, * * 
 refused to let it issue, and delivered his reasons in open court, referring at the same lime to 
 the decision of the Madras puisne judge, as reported in the following sentence — " With 
 reference to the case decided at Madras, Ins Lordship admitted that it militated very strongly 
 against the principle he had laid down, but, bound as he was to pay every res|)ect to the 
 opinion of * * he * * felt it his duty to sav that he differed from it entirely. 
 His Lordship had therefore no hesitation in relusingthe present application." 
 
 98. That your petitioners, feeling themselves highly aggrieved by the practice of * * 
 in deciding cases in which missionaiies and Hindus are the opposini;' parties, bv his reli- 
 gious feelings rather than the piinciple of justice, beg to advert to two of bis foinier deci- 
 sions ; the first of which was passed in tiie year 184(5, in which a Hindu boy, named * * 
 was produced in court, his father asserting that he was not of age accordnii; to Hindu law, 
 tiie missionaries on the contrary asserting that he was of age, when the puisne justice, noi 
 being otherwise able to favour the missionaries, said he should decline resting what was his 
 view (d' the case upon the mere point of age, and that it was not years but discretit)n that 
 was to jiuide the court in this matter. He accordiiiLily put a few questicnis to the lad, one 
 of which was, " Does Christ forgive sins as Ciod, or Metliator .'" To which the reply was, 
 "as Mediator." Afier which he observed, " He is choosing good for himself, he is cluxising 
 that which he believes will be for his salvation ;" and, making his good choice, the evi- 
 dence that he was of age to choose, he delivered the lad into the hands of the mission- 
 aries. 
 
 99. That the second instance happened in ]»47, the child in dispute being a female, 
 named * * , upon which occasion * * alludiii;: to his former decision, in the case 
 of * * , acknowledged, that, " had tiie object of Ins choice been bad, I should have 
 come to another decision." There wa>, lunvcver, no occasion this time to substitute discre- 
 tion and a good choice in the place of age, as an affidavit was put into couit from two 
 doctors in the Company's service to this effect, " We, upon our o..ths, say that we did, at 
 the request and in the presence of the reverend • * on the 19th April 11U7, examine 
 and inspect the person of * * and that we are of opinion that the said * * is of the 
 
 0.10. 3 O age
 
 468 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix,*No. 7. 
 
 Subordinate Pre- 
 sideDcies. 
 
 age of 12 years, or thereabouts ;" with reference 10 which the puisne judge remarked, " We 
 know that there is no ciicunistance, no teuipiation, no consideiatun, no interest, thiit would 
 leiui these gentlemen to deceive this court. We know what they state they have seen and 
 do believe ;" and accordingly the court adjudged the possession ol the girl, thus sliaaie- 
 lessly and insultingly submitted to examination and inspection by three men, one of them 
 a Christian minister to the missionaries, although the fact that she was not of the age of 
 pubertv was incontestably proved, from the very circiini>taiice ot her being allowed to attend 
 Mr. * * school, — Hindu females, after that peiiod, not being permitted to go abroad, 
 unless they are married women. 
 
 100. Tiiat from these circumstances, as well as others wherein * * has expressed 
 himself inimical to the Hindu community, in open court upon the bench, your Petitioners 
 earnestly beg that no more judges affected by a religious bias whicii induces ihem to carry 
 their peculiar creed to the bench of justice, and there to follow its impulses in their deci- 
 sions of cases brought up for their adjudication, may be appointed either to the puisne or 
 chief justiceship in the supreme court at this Presidency; conduct like that to which your 
 Petitioners have been referring being c;dculaied to inflict greit misery upon the Hindu 
 CDmmunity in their social relations, and to create public disturbances, leading to the most 
 mischievous consequences, among a people patient and submissive under every change of 
 governnieni, and roused to tlie open expression of their feelings only by what they consider 
 to be grosslv in>ulting and cruellv oppressive towards a religion of some thousand years' 
 establishment, and which has been handed down to them as the most sacred deposit from 
 their ancestors. 
 
 101. That your Petitioners, as subjects of the Madras Presidency, beg to represent to 
 your Honourable House the injustice and injury they suffer from the system which places 
 th( whole of its resources ai the disposal ol the Supreme Government, by whieh the improve- 
 ment ot this portion of India is retaided, and the poverty of the population impoliticly 
 augmented. Not only is the Iccal government prohibited from disbursing the public 
 revenue raised within it to local purposes; but a large portion of it is so brought upon the 
 general books of the Supreme Goveinmeni as to depreciate the value of the Presidency as a 
 distinct portinu of British India, and to make other portions of it appear more valuable tlian 
 they realiv are ; and this factitious system of accounts is m ide a reason with the paramount 
 authority for denying the improvements of which Madras is so deplorably in need, ana to 
 which she is most undoubtedly entiiled. 
 
 102. That, as an instance of this injustice, your Petitioners will explain, that many years 
 ago the sum of 50 lacs of rupees, or 500,000 /., was fixed as the amount wluch Madras 
 ought to contiibute to the general expenses ot the Indian empire, over and above her own 
 charges; and Irom 1821 to the present time it has been the constant practice with the 
 Supreme Government to press retrenchment and economy on ihis Presidency, and to refuse 
 sanction to expenditure or improvements essential to her advancement, on the plea that her 
 surplus fell short ol that required amount; nnd thus Madras is screwed down to the lowest 
 point, on the false ground that she does not pay her fair quota of revenue, while Bengal, 
 on the reputation of an enormous surplus, is allowed to make disbursements too frequently 
 bordering n| on wasteful extravagance. 
 
 103. That this different treatment observed towards two component parts of the same 
 empire, even if the case stood as is fallaciously pretended, would be scarcely just, most 
 ceriainly ungenerous, and singularly impoliiic : but if the case be otherwise, the treatment 
 of Madras is not simply unjust and impolitic, but becomes an act of lyrannous oppression; 
 and that the case is otherwise your Petitioners proceed to show. Tlie suiplus is counted 
 over the oO lacs settled as the iTmouiit of her own expenditure, which includes the military 
 charges incurred on her own account only; but fir a series of years past a l.irge part of 
 these charges has been incurred on account of troops garrisoning countries the entire 
 revenues of which are paid into the treasuries of Bengal and Bombay, viz., the Sanger and 
 Nurbadda country, Mhow, Nagpore — the subsidiary force, Cutiack and Balasoie, Tenas- 
 seriiii coast, the Straits settlements, and Aden, belonging to Bengal; and the southern 
 Maharatta country, belonging to Bombay : the Madras force in all these several districts 
 or stations amounts to four regiments of native cavalry, and IG of infantry, together with 
 one troop of horse artillery and lOJ companies of foot artillery, the charges for which are 
 within a fraction of 80 lacs of rupees, or 800,000 I. per annum, which, though defrayed by 
 her, are no part of "her own charges," and amount to 30 lacs over and above the surplus 
 at which her revenue was rated, in order to entitle her to draw upon her own treasury for 
 local "expenditure and improvement:" but, besides this, the official statements, published 
 by order of your Honourable House, have given her a creditcil surplus for several years 
 past, the latest yoin- ]3Ctitioners have access to being that of 1849-60, in which it is set 
 flown at 43 lacs and U|)waids, which, added to the 30 lacs arising out of the military 
 expenses incurred on account of Bengal and Bombay, give her for that year no less than 
 73 lacs beyond her quota towards the general expenditure of the empire, and which, as such, 
 ought to have been at her own disposal. 
 
 104. That besides this giant injury, there are many others occasioned by the centraliza- 
 tion of authority in the Supreme Government. No alteration of salaries, no revision of office 
 establishments, can be made without the previous concurrence of the controlling power, 
 and the difficulties and delays in the way ot obtaining this concurrence are such, that the 
 
 heads
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 469 
 
 heads of offices will put up witli experienced inconveniences, both temporary anH pei manf-nt, Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 rather than seek so laborious and troublesome a remedy. Instances have been known in 
 
 which such ap|>liiatii)ns received no notice for nearly two yais, and, when m re|)ly was 
 again solicited, the answer was a request that copies of the paper-* mijiht be sent, as the 
 originals were lost. Sometimes it has been proposed by the Madras government to modify 
 establishments bv reduction in one quarter, in order to sirengtiien another, and the result 
 of the application has been, that ilie reductions Iiave been sanctioned and the additions 
 rifused. Very recently the ciiiiincer officer of the 1st division, Colonel Arthur Cotion, 
 bavins;- satisfied himself by local inquiries that nasonable jiround existed lor believing that 
 the Rivir Godavery niighi be reiuK red navisiable foi 400 miles inliiul from the sea, applied 
 to the Madras government for a small sum of money to enable hiui personally to explore the 
 river in a small steamer he had himself built for the service of the Godavery aniiicul; but 
 on the sanction of the Supreme Government being requested to an outlay for this pinpose 
 not txceedini; 1,000/., it was refused, because the President in council did not see what 
 advantage could be gained by this project, altliough by its accom]di5hment the culinie of 
 cotton in the province of Berar "iiuld have been indefinitely extended for the coisumplioii 
 of the Manchister maiuifaciureis, and the grain-produeini districts in the delta of the river 
 would have found access to markets from which they are now permanently excluded. 
 
 105. That this uttei preclusion oC all improvement to this Presidency, from the systematic Modification of 
 obstrucliveness of the Suiireme Government, lompels your petitioners to request that in the the councils, 
 arrangements ol' your Honourable House for the future government of India the Governor in 
 
 council at Madras may be allowed the free use of its iunciions, necessary for providing for 
 the welfare and prosperity of the people entrusted toils care ; and thai its construction be 
 modified after the precedent of the neighbouring Crown settlement of Ceylon, where the 
 council is c niposed of official and non-official members, and, among the latter, natives of 
 this country are inclurled. That your petitioners would suggest that this council be com- 
 posed of officials and non-officials in equ d number, six or seven o! each ; the former to be 
 nominattd liy the Government on taking their place at the council board in virtue of their 
 office ; ihe Advocate General being one, and the latter to be selected by the Governor, out 
 ol a list of 18 or -21 persons, chosen by the votes of the ratepayers in Madras, and of persons 
 eligible to serve on the grand and peity juries, 01 in such other manner as your Honourable 
 House may deem preferable ; that as the official members, in conjunction witlj the casting 
 vote of the Governor uhen requisite, could always carry any point of absolute importance, 
 there could be no hindrance to ihe safe workini; of the suggesied ohm, while a sufficiency 
 of information on all subject- would be affiirded ; which, touether with the discussions being 
 carried on as at Ceylon, with open doors, could 1 ot fail to be of the utmost utility to the 
 advancement and prosperity of the people and the Presidency. 
 
 106. That all minor subjects should be definitively determined by the Governor in council ; 
 but, on all questions of importance, their decisions should be transmitted to the govern- 
 ment of India, there to be again pubhcly discussed, prior to sanction or rejection ; and also 
 that on any minor subject, determined by the casting vote ol the Governor, there should be 
 an a|)peal from the minority to the Supreme Council ; and, as vour petitioners are aware 
 that a more economical public expenditure is imperatively necessary, they would propose 
 that the salary of the Governor be fixed at seven thousand rupees per mensem, and that ihe 
 salaries of all persons composing what is now termed the covenanted service be reduced 
 prospectively, in similar proportion; that the members of council shall draw no salary for 
 that appointment, antl that, as is now ihe case in Ceylon, the holders of official situations 
 shall constitute the service, instead of an appointment by covenant conveying a claim to be 
 employed by the State exclusively to all others. 
 
 107. That, in the deliberate opinion cf your petitioners, legislative councils thus or simi- 
 larly constituted, and entirely distinct fronr the executive, are as feasible on this continent 
 as in the neighliouring island of Ceylon ; and that their constitution is the great desideratum 
 for the just and efficient government of each presidential division of the vast empire of 
 British Intlia; all general questions of political importance, involving peace and war, and 
 the movements of the military and maiine foices eonseqiieiit thereon, together with the 
 requisite, but salutary, control of the subordinate councils, being vested in the Supreme 
 Government for all India. That a single council for the whole of Inditi, although constituted 
 on the same popular principle, would never be able to distribute justice and eflfeciivc govern- 
 ment to a hundred and twenty millions of people, spread over an area of upwards of a nnllion 
 and a quirter of square miles, and comprising so great a variety of races and lani;uages : 
 the more distant provinces, as is the case at present, would be neglected and oppressed ; 
 while the nearer ones would absorb all its atteni ion, ami engross the whole of its indulgence: 
 whereas, by granting to each Presidency a local government for the management of its 
 internal affairs, the members of it would watch over the interests ol the whole circuit com- 
 mitted to their charge ; of which, from their Lical knowledge, they would be enabled, and 
 from their sympathy would be induced, to seek and pursue the welfare and progressive 
 improvement. 
 
 108. That with respect to the Supreme Council, your petitioners suggest that it should, 
 in some degree at least, partake of the popular element recommended to be embodied in the 
 councils of the Presidencies; which should have their respective interests equallv repre- 
 sented by a like number of members, the whole of whom should be allowed a reasonable 
 and respectable salary; they being prohibited from holding any other office in conjunction 
 
 0.10. 302 with
 
 470 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 Emplojment of 
 he natives by ibe 
 Jtale. 
 
 with that of councillor: and that, besides the presidential representatives, there should be 
 three others appointed from England, \vho, besides being members of the legislative council, 
 should constitute the executive council, the Governor-general being the president of both, 
 the executive of the subordinate Presidencies consisting of the Governor, and ihe members 
 ex-officio to the number of throe, in addition to the president. 
 
 109. That your petitioners, knowing from experience the inexpediency of iheliome admi- 
 nistration by a Board of Control ;ind a Court of Directors, from neitlier of which can the 
 people obtain any redress, nor even the sliglitest notice of their petitions and memorials — 
 would sui;iie?t the desirableness of fusing these two bodies into one, or of substituting another 
 in their place, presided over by a Secretary of State for liie Affairs of India, and liaving its 
 chief secretary appointed by the Crown, so that it may be amenable to Parliament, as any 
 other boaid or otbce ; its president beini^ a nifinberof the cabinet, and receiving the same 
 salarv as the Chief Secretaries of State in the other departments. That, as regards the 
 members of this council, their qualifications, and the mode of their appointments, your 
 petitioners have no suggestions to offer, beyond that of their having, at least one-half of 
 them, some tangible interest connected with tliis country ; as well as a general knowledge of 
 its condition and requirements, obtained by a personal residence in the country during a 
 specified term of years; the remainder, who have neither of these qualifications, to be recom- 
 mended by intellectual ability and habits of business. 
 
 110. That, in whatever manner the superior branches of the administration, both at home 
 and abioad. may be modified, and modified your petitioners presume they must be, to suit 
 the altered condition of men and things which has taken place in the lapse of the last twenty 
 years, justice to the masses of the people in general, and towards the more intelligent of 
 them in particular, lequires that the hitherto prevalent system of governing the country 
 through the exclusive medium of a covenanted civil service should be, if not wholly, at least 
 partially, abandoned, for the following reasons : 
 
 111. That young men under this privilege are sent to India fresh from school, and without 
 any knowltdge of the world, without habits of business, or even tiie desire and intention to 
 acquire them. Ignorant of the customs and language of the people, they are placed almost 
 immediately on their arrival in India upon large allowances in the position of assistant 
 collectors and magistrates, and, being on a level witii their superiors in office, as component 
 parts of the same exclusive service, they consider their own ease and pleasure as the first 
 advantage to be derived from their new situation, and look upon the zealous and proper 
 discharge of their oHicial functions, in proinoiing the benefit of the people, with the 
 natural indifference of persons sure of their salaries and immunities by the simple fact of 
 their first appointment from home. 
 
 112. That an assistant collector has generally placed under his immediate nuthoiity one 
 or more divisions ol the collectorate, termed talooks, within which he represents his supe- 
 rior, both as regards the collection of the revenue and the pert'ormance of magisterial duties ; 
 and, as a matter of unavoidable necessity, he is able to execute bis functions solely by the 
 instructions and assistance of the native moonshee, or interpreter, without whom he would 
 be utterlv incapable of doing any business at all, as the said moonshee is obliged to 
 advise and guide him on every point and occasion, his own functions being confined to 
 deciding according to the dictates of the moonshee, and putting his signature to the different 
 papers piepared by the latter; while, so well is it understood by the superior authority that 
 the assistant is incapable of self-guidance, that his mistakes, when con>idered important 
 enough for visitation, are furnished by the collector with the dismis-al of the moonsliee. 
 The lamentable consequences of this ignorance, incapacity, and negligence, on the part of 
 each assistant collector, to some 150,000 of the native population, in the delay and denial 
 of justice, and in the commission of injustice and oppression, are too numerous for detail 
 by your petitioner;-, and will be readily apprehended by the wisdom of your Honourable 
 House. 
 
 113. That the inefficiency and evils of this system would be most materially remedied, 
 if the educated and trained natives, now acting as proxies in the performance of the 
 functions nominally assigned to these young and incompetent civilians, were placed, under 
 their own personal responsibility, according to their fitness and qualifications, in all the 
 subordinate branches of the revenue and judicial lines; and that very many are sufficiently 
 qualified is ])roved from the facts, that they already perform the duties of such situations 
 in the revenue department; and that in the judicial department, according to the trust 
 reposed in them, they have been found, to say the least, fully equal to their superior 
 European officers, as evidenced in the public testimony borne to their worth and ability by 
 Sir Erskine Perry, late chief justice of i3ombay, in his address at the Elphinstone Institu- 
 tion in the month of February, in the present year, in the following language : " All the civil 
 business in the Company's courts is conducted, geneially speaking, by native judges ; they 
 are w liat the French would call judges of the First Instance, and from their decisions appeals 
 lie to the Euro|)ean judges, from whose judgments again an appeal lies to the Sudr Adawlut. 
 It naturally follows that on tliese hitter appeals a close comparison is made between the 
 decision of the native and European functionary; and I learn from the judges of the Sudr 
 Adawlut that it was publicly stated in open court by the two leading members of the Bombay 
 bar, that, with a few distinguished exceptions, the decisions of the native judges were in 
 every respect supeiior to those of the Europeans." 
 
 114. That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TKRIHTORIES. 471 
 
 114. Thai tlie statistics of judicial biisint'ss conducted in tlie Bengal Presidency, and Appendix, No. 7. 
 prilitrd loipnbiic iiifornmtion, also sheu- that ni tlie (piantity and (jnalityoi the work perlornied 
 
 the natives are on a |jar with tlie l-^uiopeans, and, could the statistics of .Mailias ijc cnine at 
 by your petiiioners, liiey feel conlident that the case would be the same; but, not bein;^ 
 able to obtain access to tliese docunie nis, they will quote the opinion of Mr. John Slieplierd, 
 chairman ot' the Honourable Coint of Directors, delivered in a speech 10 the students at 
 Hailevbiiry on the 15th of Decendier, last year, as to the i^eneral capacity and competency 
 of the natives: ''Let me call your attention to the extrtions inakini; by the natives of 
 India in the ])resent day. European science and iMiropean htciatuie are now studied in 
 Intlia, not only witli diligence, but with success. The examinations on those subjects passed 
 by native students show lutle, it any, inlVriority in comparison with Europeans. They 
 have become competitors on our own field of action, and on gronnd hitherto unirodden by 
 them, and unless you sustain the race with additional zeal and energy, they niay pass you. 
 Sliould this occur — should ihe natives of India surpass us in intellectual vigour and quali- 
 fications, can we hope to remain long in possession of the powers and the jirivileges we now 
 enjoy? Certainly not." 
 
 115. That on tlie basis of these facts, and of the two-fold admission of Sir Erskine Perry 
 and Mr. John Sheplierii, your petitioners would represent that the natives, having alreadv 
 equalled the Europeans in the race of intellectual atiaininenls, deserve, on the admission of ' 
 the Chairman of the Court of Directors, to he admitted to some portion, at least, of "the 
 powers and privileges " enjoyed by the young men educated at Hadeybuiy ; and Ufion the 
 same admission thev desire tlie aliolition of the college of Haileybiiry as a useless expense, 
 and an unjust incubus on ihe finances of India ; and thai in its place the means of better 
 education may be extended to this country, by the establishment of more complete and more 
 useful institu'ions, including a fuller couise of in-lriiciion, open to the natives of the soil, 
 as well as to all who seek em|doyment umier government, or to qualify themselves for the 
 general pursuits of practical life. 
 
 116. 1 hat Haileybury either imparts a better education than can, or would, be given in 
 this country, or it does not. If it does not, and it certainly cannot impart the same know- 
 ledge ol the vernacular languages, the manners and customs of the people, iheii the money 
 required ibr its support is mis-spent and thrown a«ay. If it does, then it is manilestly 
 unjust to confine that better education to a small number of privile^ied persons, while it is 
 invidiously withheld from the many, equally desirous, equally capable, and equally entitled 
 to its |;articipation, as the necessary means to enable them to avail themselves of Section 
 LXXXVil. ot the Charter Act, which enacts that no native, or natural-born subject of Her 
 Majesty, residing in British India, shall, by reason only cf his religion, place of birih, 
 descent, colour, or any of iliem, be disabled from holding anv place, office, or employment 
 under the government of the country. And your pt-titioners, therdoie, piay that, whatever 
 institutions shall he deemed rcqiiisiie to etiucate persons for accession to uovernment 
 employ, may be established and inain'ained in India, so that the money dciived from the 
 revenues of the countiy, by which tluy are supported, may be spent within it; and that 
 those who contiibut? to the revenue may, in this instance, enjoy the benefit of its exoea- 
 diture, together with that advancement in the public service which the chairman of the 
 court has pronounced to be the equitable reward of individual merit and acquirements. 
 
 117. That your petitioners would feel the present representation to your Honourable Power of the 
 House essentially deficient, were they to omit all notice of the inefficient condition in which Supreme Courts 
 Her Majesty's supreme courts of judicature have been placed by a recent Act of the legis- injuriouslv con- 
 lative council, styled " An Act tor the Protection ot Judicial Officers ;" by which it is trolled by the acts 
 enacted that no action Ibr wrong or injury shall lie in the Supreme Court against any person of the Legislative 
 whatsoever exercising a judicial office in the < ountry courts lor any judgment, decree, or Council. 
 
 order of the said courts, nor against any person for any act done by or m virtue of the order 
 of the said courts; and that no judge, magistrate, justice of thepeace, collector, or other 
 person actually judicially, shall be liable 10 be sued in any civil court, for any act done or 
 ordered to lie done by him in the discharge of his judicial duty, whether or not wiihin the 
 limits of his jurisdiction; provided tliat he at the time in good faith believe himself to 
 have jurisdiction to do the act complained of. 
 
 11«. That your petitioners have always understood that the < stablishmcnt of Crown 
 Courts was intended the moic effectually to secure the administration of justice by check- 
 ing the irregularities of frequent occurrence in the courts of the Company— an end that was 
 attained so long as the misdoings of the Company's judges were amenable to the supreme 
 courts of judicature at each Presidency; but this Legislative Act, by deprivinu those 
 courts of the power entrusted 10 them by the Crown, operates as an encouragement and 
 reward to malprat tices and oppression, which are iKcoming numerous, especially in Ueiu'al, 
 since it passed into Indian law; the only punishment for which, when the wrong-doiiio- is 
 too flagrantly notoiious to be openly tolerated, is the removal of the delinquent "o a more 
 lucrative situation. 
 
 liy. That your petitioners, under these unjust and oppressive circumstances, solicit the 
 protection of your Hoiicurablc House in the recision of this Act of protection Ibr judicial 
 delinquents, and the restoration of their original power to the courts of the Crown ; as also 
 that, for the better security of wise and impartial administration in the highest app. Hate 
 court of the Company, one or other of Her Majesty's judges may be president, or chief 
 
 o-io- 303 judge
 
 472 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 Nominal conti- 
 nuation of the 
 present Charter. 
 
 Periodical dis- 
 cussion of Indian 
 affairs. 
 
 jucloe in the court <.f Sudr Adavvlut, in the room of a Company's servant, as is at present 
 the case 111 the person of the senior member of council. 
 
 120. That your petitioners likewise pray for redress against another enactment of the 
 leiiishitive council, which vests in a single magistrate the powers, formerly shared by two 
 or more, to fine, imprison, and flagellate, at his discretion : as tiiey consider tiie authority 
 suniniarilv to inflict tliese punishments is too great to be safely entrusted to one individual, 
 especially as by the Protection Act all redress for injury or wrong inflicied is denied to the 
 sufferer; but even if redress were attainable by instituting a suit in the Supreme Court, 
 as v\as formerly the CMse, your Petitioners conceive that a check to the commission 
 of evil is far preferable to the exaction of inadequate retribution after the evil has been 
 perpetrated. 
 
 121. Tiiat while your Petitioners extremely regret that, owing to want of sufficient time, 
 and to the insufferable difficulty of obtaining access to official documents, they have been 
 unable to exhibit so amply and definitely as they could desire, the vast number of major 
 and minor grievance?- to which they are subject under the operation of the existing system 
 ol government, t!uy earnestly entreat that those which they have thus imperfectly touched 
 upon may meet with the patient consideration of your Honourable House, as well as that 
 the opportunity may be afforded of substantiating the facts they have submitted, before an 
 impartial commission of investigation and incjuiry, assembled in India, composed of persons 
 both in and out of public employ, and of Europeans and natives conjointly, chosen partly 
 in Europe and partly in this couniiy, as the sole means by which the real slate of these ter- 
 ritories, and the true condition of their population, can be elicited ; and that, for the accom- 
 plishmeni of this object, the present charter of the East India Company may be annually 
 renewed till the investigation is completed. 
 
 122. That, in conclusion, your Petitioners would respectfully suggest that, whether the 
 government of India be continued in the hands of the East India Company, or otherwise 
 provided for, the new system, whatever it may be, shall be open to alteration and improve- 
 ment from time to time, as the well-being of the country may require ; and that the working 
 of its internal administration may undergo at stated intorvals — if practicable triennially, 
 but quinqiienniallv at the latest — public inquiry and discussion in tlie Imperial Parliament, 
 in order that the people of tiiis vast and distant empire may have more frequent opportu- 
 nities of representing whatever grievances they seek to have redressed, and that the local 
 governmenis may be stimulated to the diligent execution of their functions, under the 
 influence of a constant and efficient supervision of their conduct by the higher authorities 
 at home. 
 
 And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, shall ever pray. 
 
 T. Ramatawmy M (illegible). Chairman. 
 T. Sambasevah Pill ay. 
 
 C. RuNGASAWEZ NaidOO. 
 
 &c. &,c. &c. 
 
 Madras, 10 December 1852. 
 
 TO the Honourable the House of Commons of Great Britain and Ireland, in 
 
 Parliament assembled. 
 
 The Petition of the undersigned, 
 Humbly sheweth, 
 
 That your petitioner has observed, with the greatest regret, that oppression is the marke 
 featun of the conduct of the East India Company in India, in reference to the native 
 Princes. 
 
 Th;it your petitioner has observed with indignation tiie harsh conduct of the Board of 
 Directors again^t the Ex-Rajah of Cooig, in refusing him permission to stop in this country 
 unless on the condition of his being deprived of the grant ihey allow him, refusing, at the 
 same time, to restore to him 100,000/. of his money invested in tlie Company's funds, or to 
 pay hiu! the dividends thereon ; an injustice rendered the more flagrant by their order to 
 him to apply to the local government respecting this money, wiien they know the local govern- 
 ment will not heed his application. 
 
 Your petitioner, therefore, prays your Honourable House to adopt measures by which 
 justice will be done in this case ; and your petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. 
 
 89, Great Russell-street, 
 1 Marcli 1853. 
 
 John Epps, M. D. 
 
 Thi
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 473 
 
 The Petition of Ruiigo Bapojee, the next Fri( nd, and by Will one of the appointed Guar- Appendix No - 
 
 dians of Sliaiioo Mahai:ij, an Intant und Minor, who is the sole Male next-of-kin and 
 
 also tlie lawfully adopted Son and Ilfir-at-law of his late Highness Peitaub She.ui, Rajah 
 of Siittara, deee^sed, and also the nearest Male nexl-of-kin and Hen-at-iaw of his late 
 Highness Appa Sahib, also Rajah of the said State, deceased, 
 
 Showeih unto your honourable House, 
 
 That his late Highness Pertaub Shean, above named, was the sixth Rajah of Sattara 
 
 in deseent from Sevajen Chuttraputtee, who founded the empire of the Malirattas, and trans- 
 mitted it to his descendcnts. 
 
 And vour petitioui r further showeih, that in the year 1817 the late Bajee Rao, beiiii); then 
 the peishua or prime ramislei of that empire, but who had usurped its government, and 
 made the Rajah Pertaub Shean his captive, made war in the name, but contrary to the 
 desire of his master the rajah, against the East India Company, and that, in consequence 
 thereof, niid hy the advice of the Rajah Pertaiil) Pertaui) Shean, the llonouial)le M. Ivlphin- , 
 
 stone, then being the British Commissioner at Poonah, duly appointed and acting und.r the 
 authoriiv of his Excellency Marquis Hastings, Govenior-i-eneral of India, did, on the 11th 
 day of February 1818, publish a proclamation, addressed by and in the name of ihe Rajah 
 Pertaub Shean, to the Mahratta nation, warning all its princes, chiefs, no'.iles, and people to 
 retrain fiom iiostilities agaiusi the East India Company, and commanding them to al)andon 
 the peisliwa, undt-r pain of treason in case of disobedience to him the rajah. The procla- 
 mation also stipulatcii, in the name (jf the Governor-general of India, tiiat when and so soon 
 as the lajah should be relea-ed from tlie peishwa's captiviiv, he should be " plactd at the 
 head of an independent sovereignty," adequate to his dignity and lini age. 
 
 And vour petitioner further showeih, that on the 20th day of February 1818, at Ashtee, in 
 India, the Rajah Pertaub Shean, being then detained against his will by the peishwa in the 
 midst of the peishwa's forces, who were actually engageil in battle with the British forces, 
 did leave and abandon the forees ot tlie peishwa, .nid go over to the British, brm-iiig with 
 him his mother, his two brothers, and others his kindred, and that on arriving amongst the 
 forces la>t mentioned, tiie rajah surrendered himself, family, ami attendants to Captain Frinsle 
 Taylor, now a lieutenant-colonel in Her Majesty's service, and that thereupon, and in con- 
 sequence ot such abandonment, the peishwa and his forces left ih" field of battle, dispersed, 
 and fled, whereupon the commander of the British forces, the late Lieutenant-general Sir 
 L. Smith, in token of the manner in which the victory of Ashiee was t;aini d, hoisted on the 
 wail> iif the fort of Sattara the royal standard ot the rajili, and caused the same to be saluted 
 b\ the whole of the British forces. 
 
 And your petitiuner further showeth, that, in performance of the stipulation aforesaid, a 
 solemn treaty, bearing date the 25th day of September 1819, was made and concluded 
 between the East India Company, in the name of the English Government, of the one part, 
 and the Rajah Pertaub Shean of the other part ; by the first article of which treaty the terri- 
 tory constituting the state of Sattara was coiifiimed and guaranteed " to the Rajah of Sattara, 
 his heirs, and successors, in perpetual sovereignty," under the protection ot the Crown of 
 Great Britain, wincli treaty was duly acknowledged and ratified by the English Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 And your petitioner showeih, that the Rajah Pertaub Shean was in the year 1830 accused 
 upon certain secret and ex-parte charges by the East India Company, and was in the year 
 1839 declared by them, they being his accusers and judges, guilty of those charges, without 
 having been heaid in his defence; and was thereupon, and in consequence of such decla- 
 ration, deposed from his sovereignty, forcibly deprived of his property and efl'ects, real and 
 personal, public or political, as well as personal or private, and he himself taken from Sattara, 
 removed under the custody of a military guard to Benares in Bengal, and there kept a 
 prisoner in such custody down to the 14th day of October 1847, when the rajah died, with- 
 out having obtained any hearing of' or reparation for his grievances, notwithstanding his 
 many applications to the East India Company for such hearinu and reparation, and notwith- 
 standing his continued denials ot the truth of the said accusations, and his offers to prove 
 their falsehood before any British tribunal. 
 
 And your Petitioner further showeth, that at the time the Rajah Pertaub Shean was 
 removed cap'ive from Sattara, the East India Company, by Sir James Rivett Carnac, Gover- 
 nor of Bombay, gave the rajah a written guarantee and pledtje, dated 30lh August 1839, 
 in the words tollosving: " An annual allowance wdl be assigned from the Saitara revenues 
 for the support and respectability of himself and those members of his family who may choose 
 to accompany him." " Further, that all property belonging 10 him bona fide private, and 
 not appertaining to the State, will, on his peaceable submission, not be interfered with." 
 Which written guarantee was three times repeated subsequent to such deposal. 
 
 And your petiiioner fuither showeth, that immediately upon the depasal of the Rajah 
 Pertaub Shean, the East India Company, recognising the validity and unbroken obligation 
 of the treaty ot 1819, acknowledged and declared his late Highness Appa Saliib, the sur- 
 viving brother of the deposed rajah, to be his heir and successor in the i)rincipality, and did 
 proclaim Appa Sahib to be the Rajdi of Sattara accordingly; and did furthermore, in and 
 by a second formal treaty, which was, at tne dictation of the East India Cumpany, made 
 and concluded on the 4th day ol September 1839, between the Rajah Appa Sahib of the one 
 part and the East India Company of the other part, and was duly acknowledged and ratified, 
 solemnly and for the second time assure and guarantee the state of Sattara to the rajah 
 
 0.10. 304 thereof,
 
 474 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. thereof, liis lieirs and successors, in perpetual sovereignty, and did also confirm llie first 
 ~-^ treaty of the -Joth September 181U. 
 
 And your petitioner sho-.veth, that by a proclamation, bearing thite the 5th day of Sep- 
 tember 1839, at Sattara, beinii the day after the date of the second tieatv, the Britisli Resi- 
 dent there, acting under the orders of Sir Jame? Rivett Carnac, Baionet, Governor ot Bombay, 
 notified by proelamation to the people of Sattara that the East India Company, having no 
 views of advantage and ao'srandizement, had resolved to invest the brother and next in suc- 
 cession to the deposed rajah with tlie sovereignty olthe state, according to the limits fixed 
 by the first treaiy, and all persons residing within h.is territory were rrquired to render to 
 Inm allegiance as Rajali of Saitara ; which proclamation was altervvards duly recognised 
 and approved by the British Goveninient. 
 
 And your petiiioner further sho«eth,that the Rajah Appa Sahib departed this life on the 
 6th day of April 18-18, at Sattara, without issue. 
 
 And your petitioner farther showeth, that the Rajah Pertaub Shean did, according to 
 Hindoo law, adopt as his son the infant Shahoo Maharaj, and by his will, d.ited 10th 
 October 1845, which was executed and published by iiiin a; Benares according to the forms 
 of that law, he declared and diiected tliat Shaiioo Mahaiaj should succeed iiim in his rights, 
 property (private and public), titles, and in every ihing appertaining to his rank, station, and 
 person; and that ihe rajah did immediatelv, publicly, and in a formal manner, notify this 
 adoption to the East India Company th;ough Lieutenant-colonel Carpenter, ihe officer then 
 having the custody of the rajali at Benares; which adopiion the Ea.'.t India Company at 
 that time never questioned. 
 
 And your petitiontr showeth, that Shahoo Mah.iiaj is by birth the lawful and only son 
 and heir ol the late Biilwunt Rao, coinmniilv called Balla Sahib Sennaputty, who, in his 
 lifetime, was thus deserihed by Sir Robert Giant, Governor of Bumbay, in a minute dated 
 SOtli January 1837 : " The question is as to Balla Sahib Sennaputty ; he is the near relation 
 of the rajah (Pcrlaiib Shean), and supposing that the rajah and the rajah's brother (Appa 
 Sahib) set aside, the proper representative of tiie family. " Balla Sahib was carried away 
 captive fiom Saitara with llie Rajah Pertaub Shean, and expired of grief on the journey to 
 Benares, leaving Shahoo iMaharaj, horn on that journey, a fatherless infant. 
 
 And V"ur petitioner showeih, tluit, by the Hindoo law universally obtaining, it was abso- 
 lutely obligatory upon ihe Rajah Pertaub Shean to adopt in his lifetime a son and heir accord- 
 ing to that law ; and that such obligation was not only a legal, but also of a highly solemn 
 and religious character, and binding upon the conscience of Pertaub Shean, and not to be 
 evaded or dispensed with; and tiiat the son so adopted according to Hindoo law acquires 
 immediately, upon and by means of such adaption, the style, character, and capacity of a 
 lawful son ol ihe body, as v\ell as of heir, of tiie prince or person so adopting him. 
 
 And your petitioner further sliowetli, that, according to the laus of nations, iieinu; pnrt and 
 parcel of the municipal law of.the British realm, and also according to tlie laws and customs 
 of the Mahraila state and the other native states of India, and likewise according to the lavir 
 and practice of the British Indian dominion-, the right of a rajah of any Mahratta or Hindoo 
 principality 10 give succession to the same by means of male adoption is, and hath ever 
 been, an indisputable and innneraoiial riiiht, and your petitioner humbly submits that the 
 same camiot now be lawfullv questioned by the East India Com|)iiny, or by any person or 
 persons whomsoever. 
 
 And your petitioner further showeth, that, upon the death of the Rajah Appa Sahib, the 
 Sdveieignlv of the slate of Saitara and the public prop* rty, which by express letter and spirit 
 of both treaties above mentioned descended (d' right to ihe next iieir of the deceased rajah, 
 were clainu d and seized by the liast India Company upon the pretence of a failure of male 
 lieirs to both rajahs. 
 
 And your peiitioner further showeth, that the infant Shahoo Maliaraj, being not only the 
 adopted son of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, but also his male m xt of km, and also the sole male 
 next of kin and heir of the Rajah Appa Sahib, even if ihe act of ado[)tioii had imt taken place, 
 lie wuuki according to law and to the second treaty have equally inherited upon ihc death of the 
 Rajah Appa Sahib in such his character of male jieir and next of kin, and that therefore, both 
 by adoption and by blood, Shahoo Maiiacaj is now the undoubted lawful heir of llie Rajah 
 Pertaub Shean, as also of the Rajah Appa Sahib. 
 
 And yoi.r petitinner showeth. that Shahoo Rlaharaj also claims 10 be entitled as heir to the 
 private properly and effects, rtal as well as personal, of the iiajali Perlaub Shean, and which 
 were taken possession of by ihe liast India Company on the rajah's captivity and removal 
 to Benares in Seplemher 1839, ami which were guaranteed to tiim by the East India Com- 
 pany exi)r(ssly in addition to the ainiual allov\aiice settled upon him at that lime. 
 
 But vour peiitioner showeth, that the luist India Company have hitherto wholly refused 
 to accede to Ids applications made in this brdialf, and have hitherto retained, and still do 
 retain, possession of the state of Saitara and of ihe public and private propeiiy and 
 eflfects belonging to Shaho" Maharaj, and claim in the name of the British nation the right 
 to retain and ajipropriate the same, and that they have retained and appropriated the same 
 accordiiijzly ; •ind that in paiticniar, by a proclamation, dated the I'ith day (d May 1849, 
 and ])uhlished in India, ihe whole of the state of Satiara iiaili been, and is, in violation of 
 the above treaties, and in confiscalion of the lights of Shahoo Maharaj, annexed and 
 declaKd to he annexed unto the Indian territories; and that the East India t^ompany, in 
 order to colour such unlawful appropri;ition and spoliation, pretend that the succession of 
 the two rajahs, Pertaub Shean and Appa Sahib has lapsed by failure of heirs, whereas 
 your peliimner has shown, and does show, and is ready to verify the contrary of such 
 pretence to be the truth; fiiit, by the written testimony above cited of Sir Robert Grant, 
 
 Governor
 
 SELECT COMMITTKE ON INDIAN TERIUIORIKS. 475 
 
 Governor nt l?()mbny ; secondly, hy tiio evidence ol 1 1. !>. E. Freic, esq., tiie Compiiny's Appendix, No. ". 
 
 Resident at Siitt;ira, alHniiino thai no such p'ailuie lialli occinied, tlu; Resident iiavirii; 
 
 declared, in iiis letter to the l?otnhay Govermiient, dated 2:5d Se|)tend)er UMtt, " that there 
 were luinierous claimants to the throne [ of Sattaia ] who would he able to establish a 
 very "ood prima facie case, in any court of ju^itice in India, to he the rajah's heir by blood 
 as ai'uiiisi the British Govermiient;" and liavni<j f'urtiier written as follow : " I would take 
 this opportunity of respectfully, but very earnestly, pressin<i on Government the risk of 
 pronouiicni<i- any final decision, whether in favoiii of one ado|)tion a>j,aiiist another, or of the 
 British Government ai^ainst both, and against all oilier claim iiit^, without allowintr every 
 party •vhose claim may be iie:;aiived the I'ullot po->ible oppoituniiy, not only of himself , 
 statins; the <: rounds of Ins own claim, but of answerins; all objections." 
 
 And your petitioner further showeth, that he hath repeatedly presented to the East India 
 Company his complaints touching tlic grievances and wrongs done to Shaho(j Maharaj. 
 and sought leparation t'nv the same, but thai all his compiainls have been unheeded, or 
 vcjec ed without examination ori niiuiiy ; and that, to add to these grievances, and also with 
 the view ol compelling IShahoo Maharaj to renounce and abandon the prosecution of his 
 claims in that behalf, the East India Company did for seveial years deny to him and to 
 the widow or ranee of the Rajah Pertatib Shean, both detained prisoners at Senates (where 
 the infant has been kept since his birth), the means of subsistence for himsell and the said 
 ranee, and for their retainers, until --uch time as they should auree to such written reniuicia- 
 ticn or abandoiuiient ; and as evidence ot this conduct, your petitioner humbly begs to leier 
 to the following jjapers : No. 609 of IttjO, laid beloie your llonoiirable House, and ordered 
 to be printed on the olh ilav of August of that year, that is to say, a despatch bearing date 
 " Fort William, Foreign Department, (Uh April 1850, signed IJalhousie, J. H. Littler, 
 F. Currie, J. Lowis," and addressed " to the Honourable the Court ot Directors of the East 
 India Company," and a despatch in reply thereto, hearing date, " Foreign Department, 
 India House, ioth July ( No. 1!>), 1850," signed " J. Shepherd, J. W. Hogg, kc. &c." and 
 addressed to " our Governor-General of India in Conncil. ' 
 
 And your jeiitioner fmther shiiwelh, that, in funiierance of their purpose of forcibly com- 
 pelling this infant to agree to such renunciation and abandonment, the East India Company 
 l)a\e, by withholding from the ranee for about four years the means ot subsistence tor her- 
 self and her household, procured from her some document whereby she hath (as they 
 allese") debarred herself of her right to concur with yonr petitioner in his present ]ietition ; 
 but your petitioner is advised and subnnts that, inasmuch as the ranee hath no jurisdiction 
 over Shahoo Maharaj, nor power to sign away his lights, he being an inrant and a minor, 
 any such document, even if the sau.e be genuine or valid as against the ranee, and even if 
 not e.Morted from her under duress and starvation, must be and is, as ngain>t Shahoo 
 Maharaj, wholly inoperative and void. 
 
 And vour petitioner lastly showeth, that the amount of the annual revenues oftiie state of 
 Sattara, so appropiiated by the East India Company, is officially admitted now to be more 
 than 142,00(1/. and prospectively to be from 400,000/. to .500,000/. per aimum, and that the 
 amount in value of the pul:ilic property and effects belonging or incident to the state exclusive 
 of the revenues, is more than 45,000/., and the amount in value ot the private or personal 
 property and eil'ects a])propriated exceeds a00,000/. Further, that ot the separate income 
 derivable from real property, bought anil left by the Rajah Peitaub Sheaii, and now 
 appropriated by the East India Companx , ,1 poition is derived from lands situaied in the 
 territories oftlie East In lia Company, and is returned by \'iscount Falkland, Governor of 
 Bombay, as of the annual value of ni])eei 2 j,5"29, or •2,552/. 
 
 Tliai, by reason of Shahoo Mahaiaj being treated at Benares as a political prisoner, 
 although denied to be a rajah either by birth or adoption, the local courts of the East India 
 Company are prohibited trom eniertaining the matter of his complaint in the piennscs, 
 while by reason of the forcible detention of his person by the same power which refuses to 
 hear him, at the very same time that it degrades and beggars liiin, he is pievenied from 
 placing himself within the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Supreme Couits in India, and 
 seeking justice from them. 
 
 Your petitiomr has, therefire, no possible hope nor human means of obtaining inquiry 
 and redress for Shalioo Maharaj, except from the justice of your Honimrable House, and 
 from the supremacy ami impartiality of British law. 
 
 And theretbre vour petitioner liumbly prays your Honourable House will be p'eased 
 either to direct the lestoration of Shahoo Maharaj to his rights and properly in the pieinises, 
 or else to refer the matter of this petition, anil the ca>e and circumstances therein st t forth, 
 to the consideration of the Committee of your Honourable Hou>e now apnomtetl to review the 
 conduct of the East India Company in India, vMth instructions to take al evidence whicii 
 shall be deemed requisite, and to requite the production of all proceedings, correspomlence, 
 and documents in the possession, or power, or under the control of the East India Company, 
 or their servants, relating to the premises, or of true and exact cojues of such particulars 
 respectively, and to report thereon to your Honourable House. 
 
 And your petitioner will ever pi ay. 
 
 Riciigo JJa}:ojee, 
 Vakeel of his Highne>s Sliahoo Maharaj, Rajah Saitara, 
 now at Benaies. 
 
 0.10. 3 P
 
 476 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. The Iiuiiible Petition of the Members of the Bomhay Association, and otlier Native 
 ■ Inhabitants of the Presidency of j^owiay, 
 
 Sheweth, 
 That the nature, constitution, and practical working of tlie Indian Governiuent being 
 now under the consideration of Parliament, your petitioners bey; respectfully to lav before 
 vour honourable House the views whicli your petitioners have formed with respect to 
 the exisiing system of government, and some of the improvements of which it is 
 susceptible. 
 
 •2. Your petitioners are fully sensible of, and are glad to acknowledge, the many blessings 
 they enjoy under the Britisli rule; but these they attribute to the British character, rather 
 than to the plan of government which it has hitherto been deemed expedient 10 provide for 
 India; and which, being the result of circumstances, and not of design, is but little 
 suited to ihe present state of the country, and to the fair demands of the people of 
 India. 
 
 3. Even the 3d &. 4th Will. IV., c. 85, under which India is now governed, intituled, 
 "An Act for eft'ectinff an Arrangement with the East India Company, ami for the better 
 Government of His Majesty's Indian Territories, till the 30th day of April 1854," was 
 confessedly a concession of principles, in order thereby to etftct the final settlement of 
 complicated questions of property, and 10 obtain the relinquishment by the East India 
 Company of certMin exclusive rights of trading secured by royal charter ; and the corre- 
 spondence between the Board of Control and the Directors of the East India Company, 
 contained in the 17th volume of ibe " Papers" printed in 1833 by order of the Court of 
 Directors), "respecting the negotiaiion with his Majesty's Ministers on the subject of the 
 East India Company's charter," clearly establishes that it was folly understood at that 
 time, on both sides, that the nature of the arrangements for the future government of India 
 was to remain an open question. 
 
 4. The formation, therefore, of a good system of government for the millions of peaceful 
 and loyal British-Indian subjects being now, ibr the first time, freed from all antecedent 
 difficulties connected with the acquisitions, rights, and position of the East India Com|)any, 
 and resolving itself, as it now does, simply into a question, How can India best be governed ? 
 vour petitioners believe that it will be found easy bv your honouiable House to devise a 
 constitution for India which, while it shall contain all the good elements of the existing 
 svstem, shall be less cimibersome, less exclusive, less secret, more directly responsible, and 
 infinitely more efficient and more acceptable to the governed. 
 
 5. Your petitioners need not point out to your honourable House the nature of the home 
 Government under the present arrangement; but whilst in theory, and doubtless to a very 
 great extent in practice, it consists of a minister of the Ciown, aided by a Court of 24 
 persons, many, though not all, of whom have passed through an Indian career, yet, accord- 
 ing 10 very high authority, the views of the Court of Directors can be put aside by the 
 minister ;it pleasure, and the former be forced, in their own names, and as their own act, to 
 irsue orders to the local government to which they are entirely opposed. 
 
 G. The right honourable the Earl of Ellenborodgh, in the evidence recently given by 
 him before a committee appointed by the late Parliament to inquire into East Indian 
 afl'airs, is represented to have stated that he did not know by whom India was in general 
 governed ; that it seemed to be so, in general, by a parcel of clever cleiks ; that when he 
 (Lord Ellenborough) was chairman lie governed the country himself, and on his own respon- 
 sibility; and that he did not think of taking counsel with his brother ministers, or advising 
 with any member of the Court of Directors as to the course to be pursued. Tlie following 
 question was put to Mr. Courtenay, Secietary to the Board ot Control fioin 1812 to 1830, 
 by the ^(lect Committee appointed by Paliainent in 1832: — 
 
 " lias the existence of these co-ordinate authorities, in their several relations to each 
 otlier, tended, in your opinion, to promote the despatch of public business, or other- 
 wise?" 
 
 His answer was, "To retard it in a most extraordinary degree; aiitl, in retai'ding it, to 
 make the whole more unsatisfaciory. The length of time that ela|j>es between an occur- 
 rence in India which is the subject of a despatch, and the receipt in India of the opinions 
 of the home authorities thereupon, is necessarily very considerable, under any circum- 
 stances. Some not inconsielerable time must be taken up in England in pieparing an 
 answer 10 the despatches; but the time is increased in an immense proportion by the 
 necessity of every (lespaich going through the two establishments being, in many cases, 
 the subject of lengthened controversy between them." 
 
 Th(' inutility and inefficiency of two such clashing authorities as the Court of Directors 
 and till' Board of Contiol are thus docribed by Mill, in his History of India: — 
 
 " If the whole power of Govcrnnif nt is necessary lor the Boarel of Control, what use is 
 ilierc for another governing body, without powers i This is to have two governing bodies, 
 the one real, the other only in ^how. Of this species of duplication the effect is to lessen 
 the chances for good government, increase the chances for bad ; to weaken all the motives 
 lor application, lionesty, and zeal in the body vested with power; and to furnish it with an 
 ample screen, behind which its love of ease, power, lucre, vengeance, may be gratified more 
 safely at the expense of its trust." 
 
 7. It
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 477 
 
 7. ll is, moreover, coniinoiily asserted and ixlievcd, tiiai soino of the most iniportant Appendix, No. 7. 
 events whicli have occmred (hiring the existiiiu, Goveniineiit <if Iiidiu, attended with an -.^— 
 enormous drain on the revenius ol the country, have been ordered l)y llie Board Of Control, 
 
 in opposiiiou to the express wishes of the Court of Directors. 
 
 8. Your peiitioners, tlierefore, submii tliai an Indian Council, not placed under a 
 niinisier of tlie Crown, but of which ihe latter should form the president, and he directly 
 responsible to Parliament, would form a more simple, efficient, and responsible liome 
 Government than that now existing. 
 
 9. Whether the members of this Board should consist of 12 or "24 persons, bv what title 
 they should be designated, how many of them should be nominated i)y the Crown, and how 
 many elected, and by whoiii etecied; how they should be remuneiaied, :ind how and when 
 displaced, — are details on which it is quite unnecessary for your petitioners to offer an 
 opinion to your honourable House beyond this, thai your petitioners would suggest that 
 the remuneration attached to a seal at the Board should be such as to secure the 
 services of the most able men of the day; and thai, with the exception of tlie minister 
 of the Crovvi), a previous residence in India should be an indispensable qualification for 
 office. 
 
 10. "^'our petitioners would further suggest, that the elective body should be com- 
 posed of persons having a real and substantial interest in the good government of the 
 country. 
 
 11. With reference to the local governments, your petitioners conceive tiiat they are 
 conducted, under the existing systeoi, witli asecrtsy which, however justifiable and neces- 
 saiv in the eaily days of the British rule, is not at all called lor in the present day; and, 
 on the contraiy, is most injurious to the character and best interests of the Government 
 itself, and most unsatisfactory to the governed. 
 
 12. Your petitioners would also point out, that the efficiency of the local Governments 
 of INIadras and Bombay, under the existing law, is very much impaired, and the despatch of 
 public business considtrably retarded, by the necessity lor continual reference to the 
 supren.e Guverment at Calcutta for iis saiution lor the most trifling matters ; and changes 
 recommended by the local (iovernmeni, and supported by the authority of its experience, 
 are frecjuently rejected by the supreme power, with no local knowledge to ouide its 
 decisions. 
 
 13. That this would be the eft'ect of centralising all legislative and so much executive 
 power in the Governor-general of India in Council was foreseen and expressed by the East 
 India Company in a petition presented by I hem to your honourable House in the course of 
 the discussions on the present Charter Act. Their words are as follows: — "Your peti- 
 tioners fun her humbly represent that the said Bill proposes to effect a serious change in 
 the ( onstitution of the local Governments in India, which, in the judgment of vour 
 petitioners, will, if adopted, place an excessive power in the hands of the Governorgi neral, 
 and prejudicially diminish the power and influence of the Governments of Madras and 
 Bombay." The experience of the last 18 years has completely verified the truth of the 
 above prediction. 
 
 14. Your petitioners submit that the cost of administration in India is unnecessarily 
 great ; and considerable reductions might be made, without the slightest detriment or 
 injury to any one save the patrons or expectants of oflice, by abolishing sinecure offices, 
 and retrenching the exorbitant salaries of many hi<ihly paid offices, whose duties are so 
 trifling, or involve com|iarative!y so little labour or lesponsibility, that tliev mioht with 
 advantage be amalgamated with other offices, or remunerated in a manner commensurate 
 with the nature of the duties to be performed. 
 
 15. Your petitioners respectfully subniit that the time has arrived when the natives of 
 India are entitled to a much larger shaie than they iiave hitherto had in the administration 
 of the affairs of their country, and that the councils of the local governments should, in 
 matters of general policy and legislation, be opened, so as to admit of respectable and in- 
 telligent natives taking a part in the discussion of matters of general interest to the country, 
 as suggest! d by Lords Ellewborough, El[)hinstonc, and others. 
 
 10. It is often alleged that the natives are incompetent to fill high situations. Similar 
 objections were raised by the Court of Directors in 1832, to the appointment of natives to 
 the offices of justice of the pi ace and orand juror, when the Bill relative to such appoint- 
 ments was proposed to be submitted to Parliament by the Right Honourable Charles f .'rant, 
 M.P., then President to the Board of Control, and now Lord Glenelg. That eminent 
 statesman, in his correspondence with the chairman and deputy-chairman of the East India 
 Company on the above subject, bears the following testimony to the qualifications of natives 
 for service under Government, in a letter dated Gtli March 1832 : — 
 
 " In the pursuits of private life, as well as in those branches of the public service in which 
 they have hiiherto been permitted to engage, the natives of India have evinced no deficiency 
 either in habits of application to business, or in the skill and acuteness required for its suc- 
 cessful prosecution; nor can it be maintained that they are insensible to tiiat stimulus to 
 exeriKiii whuh arises from the hope of honourable distinction. Those natives who are en- 
 trusted with the administration of justice, and the collection of the revenue in the interior, 
 
 0.10. 3 p 2 qualify
 
 478 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. qualify themselves for ihose duties by stiiclying the regulations of the government unaer 
 
 which tiiey are to aci. Why tlien should we anticipate a different result in the case now 
 
 under consideration ? " 
 
 The lesiiit of the -.tppointment of natives to the distinction of justices of the peace nnd 
 grand jurors, your petitioners believe they may safely assert, has fully realised the expec- 
 taliotis vvhicli >cein to have been formed regarding tlie measure bv tlie distinguished states- 
 man from whom it emanated. They have honourably tilled theii office^, and performed 
 their duties equally with their Europeaii colleagues, with much advantage to the public in- 
 terests concerned. Sir Erskine Perry, also, the chirf justice of Bombay, when presiding in 
 his capacity of President of the Board of Education at a |)ublic meeting held i;i the town- 
 hall of Bombay on tiie 9th February 1852, expresstd himself as follows, in respect to the 
 yilministration of justice as exercised by native functionaries in the interior of this presi- 
 dency : — 
 
 "All the civil business in tlie company's courts is in the first stage conducted, speaking 
 generally, by native judges ; they are what the French would call judges of the first instance; 
 and from their decisions appeals lie to European judges, frcmi whose judgments again an 
 appeal lies to the Sudder Ailawlut. It naturally follows that on these latter appeals a close 
 comparison is made between the decisions of the native and European functionary: now I 
 learn from the judges of the Sudder Adawlut that it was publicly stated in open court, by 
 two leading members of the Bombay bar, that, with a few distinguished exceptions, the 
 ilecisions of the native judges were in every respect superior to those of the Europeans." 
 
 The above testimony of distinguished individuals, to which might be added many others 
 •of a similar character, will, your petitioners hope, remove any impression which may exist 
 as to the sometimes alleged unfitness of natives for situations of trust and responsibility 
 in the service of the .Siate. Experience hitheno has shown a result directly opposed to 
 such impressions; and in the present advanced state of the native mind, compared with 
 wliat it was when the last discussions on the charter of the East India Company took 
 place 20 years ago, it is not too much to presume, judging from the past, that ihe further 
 advancement of natives to more important offices will be followed by equally favourable 
 results. 
 
 A native judge in the Small Cause Court at Calcutta, and a native magistrate in the 
 same city, are admitted on all hands to conduct their duties most satisfactorily. But no 
 such appointments have been made in this presidency, nor, as your petitioners believe, in 
 Madras. 
 
 17. \'our petitioners would further observe that the 87ih section of the 4th and otii 
 V\ ill. 4, c. 85, which declares that no native of India, or natural-born subject therein, shall 
 be disqualified from office by reason only of religion, place of birth, descent, or colour, has 
 hitlierio remained nearly ti dead letter; and it is for your honourable House to make due 
 jjiovisioii for ihe more extensive emiiloymeni of natives of India suitably qualified tor the 
 iiovernment servii e, and for their elevation to the highest offices of the State. 
 
 18. With respect to tlu- administration of the government itself, it is perhaps unnecessary 
 10 remind your Honourable House that every civil post, of any value or importance, 
 ihioughout the teiriioiies, is filled by a privileged and exclusive service called the Covcn.Tnted 
 Civil Service of the East India Company. 
 
 1'J. Your petitioners admit that the 103rd and five following sections of the 4th and 5lh 
 Will. 4, c. 85, contain the outline of provisions adapied to secure an honourable, and, on 
 the whole, efhcient body of servants for very many offices under tlie Indian Government; 
 hut, although the students of Haileybury College are, by virtue of the above clauses, to 
 undergo examination, the incompetent as well as the competent have equally the parlia- 
 mentary right " to supply the vacancies in the civil establishments in India." 
 
 20. It mu>;t; be apparent to your Honourable House that the education given at Hailey- 
 bury College does not and cannot qualify a young man to administer the law, civil and 
 crimiial, Hindoo and Mahomedan, to a ivliole district ; and yet no provisions exist, either 
 in F.iiglaiid or in India, for carrying on the education of the civd servants intended for 
 judicial employ mem, nor are they required or expected to prepare themselves for the judicial 
 uflice by any previous study. 
 
 21. Once admiiled to the service, they rise bv seniority, whether industrious or idle, 
 coui jjeient or incompetent; and they are traiisfcirtd f 1 om one dei>aitiiient to another without 
 due considerati(.n <ji their aptitude or previous experience; the judicial sends its members 
 to the revenue deparment, and the revenue to the judicial. Unlike the officers of theaiiny, 
 they are practically exempt, except in case s of extreme delinquency, fiom all fear of punish- 
 nii lit lor ineoM.piLcnce or misconduct. Hegaideil as the privileged governors of the country, 
 and claiming all the impottant ollices under Guvernmiiit as of riiilit, the gravest errois are 
 inlv visited H ith ex|iosiiilation, or, at niost, with a removal from one oflice to another, whilst 
 the loc.-ii governments are debaiied from availing themselves of European and native talent 
 at hand, simply because the possessor is not one of the privileged order. 
 
 22. So long as the jiresent exclusive system of em])loy shall continue to exist, it is maiii- 
 fcst ih:.t II will be impossible to si cure the greatest efficiency in any one department of the 
 Coveiiimeni, whilst the courts ol justice will, as a general rule, be handed over, as at pre- 
 sent, to those, who have shown tlumselves the least qualified to collect the revenue of the 
 Stall. The lesult of placing judicial power in the hands of those not trained, or liy nature 
 
 qualified
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 479 
 
 -qualified to exercise it, is that, in order as Car as possible fo prevent injusiice, it is necessary Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 to allow a niiniber oF appeals and reviews; and thus, under the system of Moftissil judica- 
 
 ture, a final decision in civil suits is often not obtained under ten years, ai.d rarely before 
 three years. Then tiie litiiiation in the comp;iuvV courts, where a laigc amount is in dispute, 
 is of the most expensive character, owing to the heavy stamps to which all law proceedings 
 in the Mofiissil are subject; and thus, from delay, expense, and inefficient judges, the ad- 
 minisiration of tlie law ni the company's courts is altogether of a most unsatisfactory nature ; 
 and no department if the Indian Government calls more louldy for reform. 
 
 23. Your petitioners would respectfully suggest that, if a Parliamentary service, having a 
 right 10 exclusive civil employ, is 10 be retained for India, its sphere of office should be 
 confined to tiie discharge of strictly revenue, financial, and political duties; and tliat the 
 system of seniority and" right of promotion, involving, as now in operation, frequent and 
 most inconvenient" transfers of officers from one department to another, should be abolished, 
 and that public merit should be the only avowed principle of promotion; and' further, that 
 a high standard of qualification should be exacied from all wiio are appointed to judicial 
 offices in India. 
 
 24. Your petitioners would, moreover, add, that the Indian civil service now costs the 
 Government three millions and a half of pounds sterling, each officer receiving on an average 
 1,750/. per annum, from youths just arrived in India to the highest grade. These salaries 
 are adequate to command the very highest political, financial, and judicial talent, and impose 
 on the Government the moral obligation of providing the best servants for the Indian 
 Government. 
 
 •25. But vour petiti(mers submit that the salaries paid 10 the Indian civil serviints are 
 excessive. Your petitioners see it slated before the Select Committee of the Hcjuse of 
 Commons that the public service is most ably conducted by membeis of the native uiicove- 
 nanted branch, at a mere fraction of the charge of covenanted servants ; that a much greater 
 number of natives ought to be employed than at present, the general conduct of native 
 officials being most exemplary. 
 
 2G. There are numerous offices under the Government, the post-office for example, in 
 which the head of the department must necessarily be to a great extent, from want ci- 
 training for the discharge of his duties, and dependent, therefore, on his subordinates. They 
 are held for some transient period, so that there is little inducement for the most con- 
 scientious men to study the duties of the office. Within tiie last ten yeais there have been 
 eight different pustmasiers at this presidency, drawing between 2,000/. and 3,000?. a year, 
 while the work has been chiefly ijerformed by a deputy, leceiviiig 700/. per annum; and 
 the post-office, as a system, is believed to be infinitely IdcIow what it would have been had 
 a qualified person been sent out from Enghmd to take permanent charge of it. 
 
 27. Your petitioners, whilst on this subject, cannot forbear calling the attention of your 
 Honourable House 10 the opinions of tlie East India Company on the best means of pro- 
 viding good servants for the Indian Government, as expressed in the petition presented 
 •by them to Parliament in 1833, and which, your petitioners submit, deserve great con- 
 sideration : — 
 
 " Throughout the correspondence which has passed with his Majesty's ministers, your 
 petitioners have declared upon this point, that the arrangement which shall not effectually 
 .provide the means of giving Government servants to the Indian empire, is that which shall 
 assuredly meet the views of the court, whatever its effects may be on their patronage; and 
 it is because your petitiom rs are deliberately convinced that efficiency will be more likely 
 to be obtained in a general system of education, brought to the standard of a high test of 
 examination, than in any exclusive system, that the court confidently ask your Honourable 
 House to abolish the collesje." 
 
 28. Your petitioners now beg 10 repiesent to your Honourable Hou^e the extreme 
 deficiency of the means of internal communication in this presidency ; that this want dis- 
 courages increase of production, bv sliuttini: out the pioduceis from any remunerative 
 market, and pievents, in periods of distn ss, the scarcity of one district being mitigated by 
 the plenty in another. Instances are recorded wherein the supplies designed to relieve , 
 famine in a district were, in the course of transit, e>)nsumed before they re iched their desti- 
 nation. Were this r)bstructioa to the industry and resources of the country taken ofi, by 
 the construction of railways, roads, piers, wharves, and other useful works, large tracts of 
 laud now lying waste, more particularly in the cotton districts, would be put under culti- 
 vation, iind the supply of this most important article of export to Great Britain would be 
 increased at least tenfold. Your peiitioners beg leave to quote, in corroboration, a passage 
 from a memorial addressed by the hading merchants and banker^ of i5oinbay to the pre- 
 sent Governor-General of India, in 1850: 
 
 " So miserably inadequate are the means of coiniiiunication in the interior, that many 
 valuable articles of produce are, for want of carriage and a market, often left to perish in 
 'the field ; their way to this port is enormously enhanced, to the extent, sometimes, of 200 
 per cent. Considerable o.uantities never reach their destination at all, and the quality of 
 the remainder is almost universally deteriorate J.'' 
 
 Several able letters, addressed to the editor of the London " Times," in November and 
 December I80O, and again in September 1851, by a distinguished engineer officer of the 
 Bombay army, clearly point out the deficiency of the present means of communication in 
 
 0.10. 3 P 3 '''^
 
 48o APPEjNDIX to REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. the interior, and particularly in Gujar.it, and to which your petitioners would solicit the 
 earnest consideration of your Honourable House. 
 
 29. Your petitioners suggest that five per cent, of the amount of land revenue siiould be 
 annually expended in the district whence it is levied, in making roads, bridges, tanks, and 
 other works of similar utility. All such expenditure would be speedily repaid in the 
 increased revenue arising from the impulse given to production, by opening up new markets 
 for the sale of producer Your petitionevs observe that tMs most important recommenda- 
 tion has been made repe;iiedly to the local and supreme Governments here, by some of its 
 most eminent and e.xpeiienced officers, but they have learnt with deep regret that it has 
 been as frequently set aside by the home authorities. 
 
 30. Your petitioners wcmld further observe, that the Government grant of 12,500/. for 
 educational purposes is quite inadequate to the wants of this presidency, with its population 
 of uiiuards of 10 millions, and yielding a net land revenue of 1,028,285/. Your petitioners 
 beo- to draw the special aitention of your honourable House to this subject, and believe 
 that all the reforms and all the improvements sought for, or in the power of your honour- 
 able House to make, are but secondary in importance cou! pared with the necessity of intro- 
 ducing a complete system of education for the masses of the people. That such expendi- 
 ture would eventually increase the revenues of the country, both by teaching the people 
 new and belter modes of production, as well as habits of economy and prudence, cannot be 
 doubted; and your petitioners would suggest the propriety of establisliing in each presi- 
 dency an university, alter Mr. Cameron's plan, for the purpose of qualifying peisons to 
 practice in the various professions, and rendering them eligible for Government employ- 
 ment. 
 
 31. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray your Honourable House to embody in any 
 measure of leoislation which may come before you for the future government of India, the 
 principles hereinbefore set forth ; and that your Honourable House will not rest content, 
 but adjourn the final settlement of the plan of the Indian Government until all available 
 information fiom trusiworthy, competent, and disinterested sources, has been laid bef )re 
 you; and your petitioners venture to hope that your Honourable House will limit the 
 period of existence for any future Government of India to 10 years, in order that the interests 
 of so many miUions of British subjects may be more fiequently brought under the consi- 
 deration of Parliament. 
 
 And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. 
 
 (signed) Manachjee Jamasjee. 
 
 Nesserwanjee Manockjee. 
 Bomuujee Jeejeeblioy, 
 Bombay, 28 October 1852. <fcc. &c. &c. 
 
 The humble Petition of the undei signed British and other Christian Inhabitants of Ca/ca«a 
 and the neighbouring Parts, in the Lower Provinces o( Bengal, 
 
 Humbly sheweth, 
 1. That your petitioners feel themselves called upon by the approaching period lor the 
 renewal of arrangements for the future government of Imlia, to convey to your Honourable 
 House some expression of their opinion with reference to those arrangements. 
 
 Objects of the lust Charter Act nut carried out. 
 
 That your petitioners advert with satisfaction to the provisions of the last Chaiter Act, 
 especially when read in connexion with the historical evidence of the intentions luid objects 
 of Parliament. That, reading the Charter Act by this light, a distinction palpably arises 
 between tho^e objects which were completely established by the Act of Parliament, such, 
 for example, as the abolition of the trading powers of the East India Companv, and those 
 whicli for any reason were left to the good faith of tlie Government to realise. With respect 
 to the latter class, your petitioners beg to express very great disappointment; for although 
 the Government was furnished by the Charier Act with new powers and machinery to 
 accomplish what then appeared, and whatever in futuie might appear desirable, many of 
 the intentions of Parliament remain neglected. Thus, for example, no means have been 
 taken to form lor India a properly qnajififd body of judges, or to open the judicial service 
 to qualified persons, though ihe want was dcuionstiated by a large body of evidence before 
 Committees of the Houses of Parliament. The criminal laws of the East India Company's 
 courts, in their application to natives, were condemned 15 years ago by the Indian Law 
 Commission, which was appointed, under a direction in the Chaiter Act, to inquire into the 
 state of the laws ; but the criminal liws remain for the most part unehangcd. In a spirit 
 eenerally deemed as inqjolitic as illiberal, the Government has repeatedly proposed to bring 
 Britisli people under these laws, though so declaied unjust towards the natives who were 
 accustomed to them. The want in the East India Company's courts of laws adapted to 
 the requirements of trade and commerce is well known; the English law could furnish an 
 equitable commercial code, but English law is excluded from these courts, and no other 
 rational system has been enjoined upon or adopted by them, although the Charter Act 
 
 expressly
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 481 
 
 expressly directs the preparation of laws adapted to all classes of the public. The great AoDendix No 7 
 
 want in the courts of the E-.ist India Company of a body of laws, both civil and crinnnal, _!' 
 
 for the Rast Indiaiis, to whom as Christians the native laws were not justlv applicable, 
 was specially brought under tiie consideration ol Parliament, and the peculiar iiard>l)ip ct 
 the case drew fortii the sympathy of several cmincni men. Fractual relief has been pro- 
 posed to Government by the Indian Law Commission, under the name of a Lex Loci Act, 
 but relief has not been given. Parliament abolished all dis-abilities for office or public 
 employment, by reason of race, creed, colour, or origin; but distinctions are maintained in 
 administration between previously excluded classes and the privdcged classes, which place 
 tile former in a state of official and social degradation. The stale of the police is as bad 
 as belore the last Charter Act, and ii is no protection to the people. Oiher instances mio'ht 
 be given, and hence your petitioners express their disappointment, and have again to brm<'' 
 these subjects, together with others, under the consideration of Parliament. 
 
 State of Ike Law and Courts ; Subject divided. 
 
 2. Thai your petitioners first beg to bring under the consideration of your Honourable 
 House the state of the law, and in connexion with this the state of the courts of justice, as 
 respects both their executive and judicial functions. On a moment's refiectiun, the close 
 connexion of ihese subjects is apparent. If a bad state of the law be supposed, it is impos- 
 sible to cniiclude otherwise than that ill effects must resnlt, though the judiciary body were 
 meritorious ; and equally clear is it that good laws must in a degree fail, if the judges are 
 deficient in knowledge, skill, honesty, or other proper judiciary qualifications. And good 
 laws and good judoes together must always depend in a considerable degree for practical 
 success on the character of the executive ofHcers and establishments. The necessity, 
 therefore, is apparent of keepiug all these subjects in view together, or as parts of one 
 whole. 
 
 Law of the Supreme Court. 
 
 With respect to the law, it will be necessary to distinguish what it is in Calcutta and 
 the Supreme Court, from what it is in the country beyond and courts of the East India 
 Company. In the Supreme Court three different codes of law are established: English 
 law for British subjects, and Hindoo and Mahometan law for Hindoos and Mahometans on 
 civil matters, but Enoli.sh criminal law for all classes, natives, British and foreigners, who 
 are inhabitants of Calcutta; and for nearly 80 years these different codes have been admi- 
 nistered by this one court aenerallv with sitisfaetion to these different races, thereby esta- 
 blishing the important fact, that judijes practically qualified in English law become qualified 
 for the native system of law to which they are originally strangers, and presenting, as will 
 hereafter appear, a striking contrast to the East India Company's judges. And although 
 it may be admitted that the Supreme Court has an extent of jurisdiction geographically 
 inconvenient, the remark has no application to the law of the court, but the blame rests 
 with the Government, which has done nothing towards supplying otlur courts, or making 
 the East India Company's courts competent to take jiart ot the jurisdiction of the Supreme 
 Court, as respects British sid^jects. 
 
 hmc of the East India Company's Courts. 
 
 That the law in the East India Company's courts is on matters of succession, inheritance, 
 marriage, cnste, and religinus usages and institutions, the Hindoo and Mahometan law for 
 Hindoos and Mahometans respectively, with the addition of a body of Regulations and 
 Acts chiefly relating to procedure and revenue, and in which is prescriijtd this general rule 
 as to all other matters, namely, that the courts shall decide according to justice, equity, 
 and irood conscience in casts not provided for by the said Regulations and Acts; but the 
 Regulation which prescribes this rule is not accompanied by a code of equity, nor any 
 maxims or principles, but has left it to the couits to work out a system of equitable juris- 
 prudence, which after 60 years they have not done or begun to do, and to the present day 
 the supplementary provision for equity remains a barren verbal rule, which may confidently 
 be described as having no effect beyond that of giving the judges ut all degrees and castes 
 — Hindoos, Mahometans, and Enslisli — a discretion which they are incapable of wisely 
 exercising, and tlierebv rendering all rights, and the residt (d' ad litigation in these courts, 
 extremely uncertain. The cases to which this remark applies are all cases on coiitracts c)f 
 all kinds, including sale, hiring, |)artnership, and, in short, all business arising out of com- 
 merce and dealing in which British people and interests are concerned. That the laws 
 above mentioned are the only civil taws administered in the courts of the East India Com- 
 pany ; and thus it clearly appears that the civil law administered in those courts is most 
 defective. 
 
 Procedure of the East India Company s Courts. 
 
 That the law of procedure is in as unsatisfactory a state as the other parts of the law. 
 From repeated and numberless alterations, and the iieculiar form of many of them, the code 
 itseU is obscure, confused, and of uncertain meaniiiii; that by practice and construction it 
 has acfjuired a highly technical character, as is evident fiom the printed decisions of the 
 courts and the very large proportion of cases on questions of form. In the courts of every 
 degree suits of all kinds and all amounts, except wdiere the revenue is directly or indi- 
 rectly concerned, are conducted by means of written pleadings, consisting of a plaint, 
 
 0.10. 3 P 4 answer.
 
 482 APPENDIX^TO REPORT FROM TEIE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7, answer, replication, aiitl lejoiiuler, and no security is taken ibr truth in pleadine;. At 
 
 each step time is necessarily given to the adverse party, and a decision may be followed 
 
 bv two, and in some cases by three, appeals. The procedure, tluretore, is slow and 
 dilatory. That your petitioners, having now experience of buth systems, can confidently 
 state that ihe reiorm procedure of English law is more simple and expeditions, and more 
 conducive, by iis greater variety of resources, to the ends of substantive justice. 
 
 That the appeals (already alluded to) are permitted to an extt nt unparalleled in any other 
 system of law, on the ground avowedly of distrust of the courts. Thut, formerly, tlie petty 
 courts of nioonsiifs and sadder ameens were partially excepted fiom this system ; but by 
 a recent Act it has be^n extended to them, and consequently the petiy deal, r who may have 
 to sue a poor ryot for 5s. must not only sue by a written petition or plaint, but may have 
 his suit dismissed after two months for want of a replication, and a decision either for plain- 
 tiff or defendant may be followed by two appeals ; and thus it appears that the Eavt India 
 Company h;is no courts analogous to the Court of Small Causes in Calcutta or to the County 
 Courts in England, witii a partial exception as above, where the revenue is supposed to be 
 concerned. 
 
 That evidence in all tiie couris is required lo be taken in writing, which leads to the 
 practice of its being taken by a native clerk often out of heaiing of the judge, who may be 
 engagtd in ;ither business, and decides on the evidence thus taken on reading it, or its being- 
 read 10 him ; but the officers arc notorious for tampering wiih the eviilence, and those who 
 are personally acquainted with the cnuntry very generally complain of abuses, and condemn 
 this mode of taking evidence. 
 
 That, in connexion with this subject, the lepal agency estalilished in the courts, should 
 be mentioned, as aooravating all ihe faults of the system. It is carrii d on bv means of 
 persons called, according to their diti'er(nt branches nf the business, mooktears (u;anagers), 
 vakeels (attornies), and phaders; a body of men generally (in the inferior couits) belonging 
 10 ihe dregs ot native society, who are notorious for the most wicked piactices which can be 
 used in their business, a pest to ihe courts, and a cause of the ccrrupiion of the people to 
 whom they minister. 
 
 Stamp Duties. 
 
 '1 hat to the evils already enumerated your petitioners have to add a heavy taxation on all 
 law proceedings, by means of the obligation of using stamped paper, which rises in n series 
 of duties in all regular actions from 2s. to -200/. on plaints or pttitions alone, ami admits of 
 no excepiions even for the smallest debt or demand, and waylays the suitors at every sub- 
 sequent step, and obliges the judiie to stop his speech or that ot his pleader with the ques- 
 tion, " Where is your stamped paper?" and will not permit the reception of the evidence 
 of a witness until after an applicaiion on stamped paper of 2s. or 4s. each, and, if the proof 
 consists of a series of letters, imposes on each letter a stamp of 2 s., and an error in a stamp 
 is often irremediable, and the constant cause of nonsuits and other failures of justiie. That 
 the stani]) duties are still more vexatious and impolitic in criminal proceedings. Tliat your ' 
 jjetiiioners represent thes' details to show that the system is not less oppressive than that 
 of the taxes on law abolished in England at the united call of justice, humanity, and all 
 general reasons. 
 
 Coiirtfi of t fie East India Company's Native Jud(/es. 
 
 As respects ihe courts of the East India Company, the civil courts, having an original 
 jurisdiction, differ so widely from those having only an appellate jurisdiction, that it is 
 necessary to premise this distinction between them. 
 
 Thai before the last Charter Act the natives had been entirely removed from civil judica- 
 ture (except as to debts of ■'il.) on account of their universal corruption. Since the last 
 Chaiter Act they have been resloied to, and are almo>t in exclusive possession of, all original 
 jurisdiciion. The judges ha\ini>- original jurisdiction are of three grados : (1.; INloonsiffs 
 (dispensers of justice); (2.) Sudder Ameens (chief commissioners) ; and (3.) Principal Sud- 
 der Ameens. The jurisdiction ol the first class extending to 30/., of the second to 100/., 
 and of the third to all amounts beyond ; and, in amount, many suits are not surpassed in 
 the courts ol' equity or law in Westminster Hall. The moon>iffs, sudder ameens, and prin- 
 ci|)al sudder ameens ai the lower provinces, consist of about 320 persons, of whom there 
 are, at iJiesent, not more than one-filteenih of Christian dciiommation. That the natives 
 first appoinied to those offices on tlie change olsystsm were, for ihe most part, the olhcers 
 (anilahs) of the existing courts — a body of persons notorious for corrupiion; and, their 
 salary being small, the practice of corruption ibr several years, if not to the present time, 
 pievailed, probably 10 nearly an equal extent, though in a different form, as in Mahometan 
 times, when ihe salary was a meie honorarium or letaimng fee, and the real reward was in 
 the wages of con u))tioii. It is notorious ihat, alb r holiling office ibr a few years, large 
 estaies or fortunes were amassed bv many of them, and otheis lived in the display of 
 affluence. 
 
 That the salaries of these classes, though slightly raised, arc in no fair proportion lo the 
 importance of iheir offices and jurisdiciion. The moonsin's receive 120/., and a few ISO/. 
 l)er annum, the sudder ameens 2j0/. per annum, and the ])rincipal sudder ameens 480/., 
 and a tew afier lon<j: service 70()/. per annum. Such salaries indicate a low appreciation on 
 the part ol the Government of the judicial office, as well as of the personal status of the 
 officials themselves; and in fact ihey do generally belong to an inferior grade of native 
 
 society.
 
 SELECT COMMITTI'l': ON INDIAN TERIUTORII'S. ^83 
 
 society, and are without any pro])er legal knowledj^e or professional trainiiij-, for it is iinp.j^- Appcn<li.\, No. 
 sible to regard as such llie little knowlc(l<';e requisite to pass an examination. 
 
 That your petitioners are fully sinsilile of the dilticulty of establishing charges of cor- 
 ruption, and tluy make tlum with reluctance; hut the proof, recognition, or acknovvjed'.'- 
 ment of ihc lact must precede an attinipt to remove or correct the evil. As some corro- 
 boration, your petitioners beg to sttiie that corrupt |)iacticrs were charged against these 
 courts in a memorial to the Bengal government wiihin the list It! months, which was 
 signed by a very respectable body of IJritish and other Christian iidiabitants of difl'ercnt 
 parts of the Lower Provinces, including some Calcutta hrms largely inteiestcd in silk and 
 indigo, and other Mofussil concerns; tliat the means taken by tlie Government to ascertain 
 tbc truth of the complaint were, as your petitioners are informed, the requisition of a report 
 on the subject from tiie civil service judges, and the conclusion was, not the cxcul|)alion of" 
 the courts, but a general report that they were improved. 
 
 That the (iovernment has ever lent an unwdling ear to representations of this kind, and 
 has taken utterly futile means of eflecting a relorniatioii. Small remedies of a topical kind 
 manifistly must fail; one of tlie latest may be cited as an example of the Sjjirit in which 
 the Government lias dealt with the enormous evil. As an inducement to merit, and to 
 Counteract the force of temptation, Government has within a few years made it a rule to fill 
 up the higher grade of principal sudder ameen from the lower grades by promotion. The 
 bright motive and reward thus held out to purity is just one chance for one out of from six 
 to eight persons, and of promotion from 180/. or 300/. to 480/. per annum, and which 
 chance can occur only once in 10 or 12 years, there being but one principal sudder ameen in 
 each zillah, and from six to eight moonsifts and one sudder ameen ; and it maybe added 
 that, if this could possibly avail in a small degree, it has a counterbalancing evil, namely, 
 of confining the important office of principal sudder ameen to the class of persons who can 
 accept, in the first instance, a very inferior office, and a salaiy of 120/. per annum, and pre- 
 sumablv, therefore, the rule of promotion excludes all peisons qualified by legal and general 
 education. It is obvious, also, tliat it leaves the principal sudder ameen without any induce- 
 ment, although the higher ofliceofa judge of appeal might have been opened to this class, 
 and presumably it is better qualified tor an appellate jurisdiction than the class of civil 
 service judges, who, under exisiing arrangements, have no original jurisdiction, and wdiose 
 training and experience do not f|ualify them to correct the inferior civil tribunals. 
 
 That your petitioners de|)recate being supposed to impute to natives any want of capacity 
 to acquire the proper legal qualifications, or to rise to a proper standard of morals, but they 
 describe what they believe to be the state of facts at present. 
 
 Civil Service Judges. 
 
 The appellate jurisdiction in civil cases has next to be described. It is almost exclusively 
 exercised by the civil service judges, of whom there is one in each zillah, who is chiefly a 
 criminal judge (called in the latter capacity sessions judge), but also a civil judge for 
 appeals up to 500/., beyond which sum the appeal lies to a court (the Sudder Dewanny 
 Adawlut) composed of five civil service judges. These five judges together receive in salary 
 a sum exceeding the aggregate salaries of all the moonsifts in the Lower Provinces ; and 
 added to the zillah judges, the entire body consists of 37 persons, who received 120,000/. 
 in the year, in which the salaries of moonsiflTs, sudder ameens, and principal sudder ameens 
 amounted only to 55,000/. ; a striking contrast of the care with which this class has been 
 guarded at one of the avenues of temptation; and your petitioners readily admit their 
 general abstinence from the practice of corruption of every kind, but more than this nega- 
 tive praise cannot be awarded to them ; and your petitioners confidently represent that their 
 administration of justice is the subject of universal complaint and dissatisfaction, and 
 which are founded, as your petitioners believe, on experience of their want of proper qualifi- 
 cations, and the bad quality of their decisions ; and, although it would be impossible to 
 justify this opinion in detail in a petiti<Jii, the few following tacts may be muntioned, 
 namely, that they come to India, and are appointed to the judicial office, without pro- 
 fessional qualifications ; that for 00 years they luive been in exclusive possessio 1 of the 
 whole or some important part of the administration of justice, and yet have furnished the 
 inferior courts with no body of general rules or principles; that, though required to fi)llow 
 equity, they have built up no system of equitable jurisprudence, but the inferior courts 
 still possess only the barren verbal rule expressed in the regulations; that by "circular 
 orders " and " constructions," the sudder courts have prescribed rules and k'gislatcd some- 
 wiiat as the emperors did by their rescripts; but these "orders" and "constructions" 
 are among the worst paits of the law, and have increased its uncertainty, and the difiiculties 
 of all the inferior judges; and lastly, that for some years the decisions of these courts have 
 been printed, and form a considerable body, but they are obscure and uninstructive. By 
 all these circumstances (and others might be adduced) may be proved that the civil 
 service judges want the proper qualifications forjudges, and the iiublic dissatisfaction 
 be justified. 
 
 Opinions of British Inhabitants. 
 
 That in consequence of this state of the law in the courts of the East India Company, 
 and of the courts themselves, the British inhabitants offered a strong opposition to the Act 
 piissed in 183G, and which has been followed by others, for bringing them under the civil 
 jurisdiction of those courts. But to reconcile them to it, the ])ublic, was assured by the 
 organs of Government that the law and courts would be improved, if from no other cause, 
 
 0.10. SQ f'O"^
 
 484 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. fi'om tiie necessity ofconformins; to a more ceriain and liighev standard of light, in order to 
 
 _1 ' ' satisfy British suitors. But this assurance has not heen fulfilled, and the bad state of the 
 
 law and the courts of the East India Company forms one great disadvantage against which 
 Britisli enterprise and character has to struggle in India. 
 
 The Criminal Law. 
 
 That the criminal law of the East India Company's courts is fundamentally Mahometan;, 
 as much a foreign law, thtrefore,. as the English in relation to the Hindu part, which is 
 a great majority of the population. That with ve<pect to Hindus and others not of the 
 Mahometan faith, ihe opinion (futwa) of the Mahometan law officer, who is in the nature 
 of an assessor attached to every criminal court, may be dispensed with; and some dif- 
 ference mav, on the requisition of the parties accused, be made in the mode of trial of per- 
 sons not Mahometans, all which are equitable modifications of pure Mahometan law so far 
 as they sjo, but they leave the foundations of the system Mahometan; and the chief effect, 
 as yourpetitioners believe, of permitting the judge to decide without the Mahometan law 
 officer, is not to introduce a different system of law, but to place persons accused (when 
 they avail of the privilege) more at the judge's discretion. That such a state of the criminal 
 law' would be intolerable to British people, and therefore they have always resisted and still 
 protest against its extension to them. That accordingly your petitioners pray your Honour- 
 able House to take their case in this respect into special consideration, and to provide that 
 English criminal law, divested in a great degree as it is now of technicahties of procedure, 
 shall be unlver^ally administered to thein and to all persons of Christian denomination or 
 faith, whether British, East Indian, or foreign, with such modifications only of procedure as 
 may be passed by the Governor-general of India in Council, with the previous assent of Her 
 Majesty in Council. 
 
 The Police. 
 
 That the police of the Lower Provinces totally fliils as respects its proptr purposes, the 
 prevention of crime, apprehension of offenders, and protection of life and property ; but it is 
 become an engine of oppression, and n great cause of the corruption of the people. That your 
 petitioners desire to state a few facts in connexion with these propositions. The Lower 
 Provinces, concerning whose police your petitioners arc nnw speaking, are divided into 32 
 counties (zillahs), and contain an estitnated population of 30 millions, and comprise an area 
 larger than France. The proper police force in these counties consists of superintendents 
 (dorogahs), Serjeants (jemadars), and constables (buckendauzes), amounting in the whole 
 to 10,000 or 11,000 persons, and to these have to be added the village watchmen, who are 
 ]5aid by the villages and not by the Government, and are so rarely known to prevent a theft 
 or other crime, or to apprehend the crini'nal, that they must count for very little in an honest 
 appreciation of the general system. That these numbers are insufficient with reference tO: 
 the existing state of the population of Bengal ; and that in the present state of crime, an. 
 exclusively native police, however numerous, can hardly be made sufficient. 
 
 That a native police, as this exclusively is, requires constant and close superintendence, 
 and jiower of superintendence is given to the magistrates; but from a variety of causes no 
 effective superintendence is or can be exercised by them. Among the^e causes may he men- 
 tioned : 1. The paucity of magistrates, for which no remedy appears practicable, so long as 
 the exclusive privileges of the civil service are upheld ; 2. The size of their districts; there, 
 is one m :gistrate and an " assi^tallt," or pupil of the civil seivice and a deputy magistrate, to 
 a zillah, the zillah being, perhaps, as large as Yorkshire, or of an area of G,000 or 7,000 
 square miles, and containing a population of one million ; ami, 3. The judicial duties of the 
 magistrate, which are alone sufficient to occupy all his time, arc by their nature incompatible, 
 with the activity and locomotion recjnired for supeiintendeiice. It may, therefore, safely be- 
 affirmed that effective superintendence over the native police there is and can be none under • 
 the existing insiitutions. 
 
 That your petitioners will make abrief statement in illustration of the practical bearing of 
 the existing system on the condition of the people. Tnat in case (.f the ap|3iehension of an 
 ofl'ender, and in order to piosecute him, it is necessary for the injured party and his wit- 
 nesses to go before t'e magistrate, btitihis may be a journey of fioui 15 or less, to 50 miles 
 or more, in consequence of the extent of his district, and when arrived at the magistrate's 
 office, he may be detained days or weeks from a variety of causes ; that in fact a magistrate's 
 compound in the Lower Provinces often presents the spectaele of hundreds of persons thus 
 kepi in detentiiMi for weeks; and if the offence is of a grave character, or beyond the juris- 
 diciion of a magistrate, he and his witnesses may be required to take a second journey of the 
 same distance to the sessions, and be there detained days w wecKS waiting for a trial. At 
 the sessions also, hundreds of persons are constantly (htained at great distances from their 
 homes. Tliat to avoid these inconveniences, the population render little or no aid to the police 
 for the enforcement of the law, but on the contrary they arc generally averse to do so, and 
 hence lias arisen a practice which is a great reproach to ihe police system, namely, that wil- 
 ijcsses generally and prosi cutors often arc made prisoners, kept uiuler arrest, and sent to the 
 magistrate, and afterwards to the sessions in actual custody. That fiom this state of the 
 law and police result the following among other evils: persons robbed deny the fact of a 
 robbery, or if they complain, the persons who could be witnesses dmy all knowledge of it, 
 the immediate inlcrcsis of these classes being arrayed, by reason of tlie state of the law and 
 jurisdictions, against tiie objects of law and justice. Often under these circumstances the 
 native policeman, to do bis duty, employs the means of terror, and torture is believed to be 
 
 extensively
 
 SELECT' COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 485 
 
 extensively practised on persons under accusation, and tlie irjured party for not assistinpj Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 Iiim becomes an olicnder. AH llie evil passions are thus broui;ht into play, and ingenuities 
 
 of all kinds, both by people and police, are resoitod to. Another result is the constant 
 device of proving; a true case by uitnes>es who know nothiui; about the matter ; justice is 
 supposed thus to be satisfied, but convenient perjury becomes familiar, and perjury loses its 
 criminal clnuacti r anions; the people. Thus, and in a thousand other ways, the law and 
 police operiite to corrupt the people and s|irea<l corruption ; moreover, the very circumstances 
 wliich repel the lic.nest, attrai t those who have revenge to gratily, rivals to injure, entniics 
 to destroy; and lor these and other dishonest purposes the poliie and criminal courts aie 
 resorted to, and police and law under the present system are terrible evils. 
 
 Tl'.at a fnrther aggravation of evil results from some powers possessed by the native police, 
 which prai tically aie magisterial, such as the power of receiving confessions, and in all cases 
 of taking (lliough not on oath) the dc|)Osition of witnesses, which powers are exercised by 
 the serjtant (jemadar) in the ab?ence of his immediate superior (the darog.di), and thereby 
 practically the course of criminal justice lakes its diriction from them, and thus the police 
 control the magistrate's functions instead of his superintending and controlling the police. 
 
 The Civil Service. 
 
 That amontr the subjects on vvliich evidence was taken by the Committee of tho House of 
 Commons previously to the renewal of tlu- last Charter Act, one wns, the education given at 
 Haileybuiy, and the means existing in India of completing it, before the cadets of the civil 
 .service, chiefly appointed from lh:it institution, entered on their public duties. Tiiat a 
 deficitncy of qualifications was proved, and apian was adopted by Parliament and embodied 
 in the Charter Act which preserved Haileybuiy, but according to which only one-fourth of 
 the candidates in the Hailcybury College were to receive appointments, which plan would 
 probably, as intended, have secured the following objects : 1. The supiiression of what was 
 proved to be an abuse, of making every nomination of Hiiileybury virtually an appointment 
 to a highly-privileged and impoitant branch of the Indian service; 2. The exclusion ol the 
 unworthy," for which, a< proved particularly by the learned professor Mr. Empson, some 
 provision was necessary; and, 3. Competition among the candidates, under such conditions 
 as should secure the eventual preference to merit and raise the average and standard of it. 
 Thai this plan incidentally reduced the value of the nominations to Haileybury, and before 
 it could come into practical operation it was repealed by statute, and with it all security 
 ceased for the desired objects, no other plan having been substituted. That the qualifications 
 of the cadets of ihe civil seivice are no better in the present day, and there is reason to 
 believe, from historical evidence, that the service produces a smaller proportion of distin- 
 guished excellence than formerly. That in every kind of office superiority is given indiscri- 
 minately to this portion of the service, and virtually it has the unity, strength, and narrow 
 interests of a close corporation, though not legally constituted as such ; lor example, two 
 and sometimes three members of the Supreme Council, all the setretaries and under-secre- 
 taries of the supreme and local governments in the civil depaitments, all the numbers of all 
 the civil boards and their secretaries and under-secretaries, all theju(lj:es of appeal both in 
 tlie metropolitan and zillali courts, all the commissioners of revenue, all the collectors, all 
 the magistrates, and (eveiy^-. here) all the heads of office, as at the Treasury and in various 
 miscellaneous offices, are exclusively of the so-called civil service. That this monopoly of 
 high office is highly jirejudicial to the public inierests, and exceeflingly unjust towards olhir 
 public scrv;)nts, who are universally subordinated to this privileged service-, and who, by no 
 recommendation of qualification or merit, or length of seivice, can rise from official insig- 
 nificance to the privileged order, though their duties and offices are often the Scime, only 
 with different names, and usually of equal importance. The principal sudder ameen, for 
 example, whose duties have been abeady described, can never rise to the grade of a (so- 
 called) civil or sessions judge, nor the deputy magistrate t > be a magistrate, though he may 
 have the full powers ot the latter, nor the deputy collector to be a lollector ; nor is tiiis the 
 only injustice. The salaries of the uncovenanied service are in no fair proportion to those 
 of the civil service, as is exeniplifitd by the comparison already made betwi en the salaries of 
 the covenanted and uncovenanted judges, and as it must be added is the fact as respects all 
 other offices ; a deputy magistrate for example of the first grade, one who has been vested 
 with the lull ]iowers of a magistrate by special order ol Government, and therefoie after long 
 trial and experience of his merit, has about the same salary as the inexperienced and untried 
 civilian when first posted and placed really in pupillage as an "as-istant" to a niagisirat*', 
 or as ihe civilian siis])ended lor misconduct. In the matter of pensions the injustice is of 
 the same glaring kind, as well in respective comparative aniountas of the different conditions 
 on which they are granted to the two classes; and the same complaint applies to the fur- 
 lough and other leave of absence rules, and to many occasional advantaiies, such as depu- 
 tation allowances, extra pay, and duplication of offices, which are exclu-ively possessed by 
 the civil service. That in the matter of punishments, trials, and coiiiplaints the same dispa- 
 rity exists. That, allowing the necessity for a severe contr. 1, it ought 10 be exercised in the 
 same manner, but is not, over all public servants. It is a common remark, and in a great 
 degree true, that official negligence, unfttnes, abuse even of authority, and oiher faults on 
 the part of a civihan are geneially visited only by removal to another appointment of the 
 same rank and emolument. Even when under susi^cnsion lor some grave offence, the civilian 
 has a very considi rabie allowance ; and he cannoi be dismissed from the service even by the 
 Governor-general in Council ; suspension is his worst punishment ; and upon being sus- 
 pended iie becomes entitled to a certain fixed and considerable allowance. That there 
 
 .0.10. 3 Q 2 appears
 
 486 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 /.pcenclix No. 7. "ppeai's to be a strikins deficiency of principle in the appropriation of offices to the privi- 
 
 '_ leged service. Mnny of these offices have duties simply of clerks and accountants, and which 
 
 would be better performed by persons brought up for such employments, or without high 
 pretensions. That the only special qualifications which the civil service ever generally has 
 are gained not by study or professional training, but by actual practice and experience at 
 the public expense, and which never or nirely rests on a basis of education and science, and 
 consequently they are not intiiusieally superior to the qualifications of other classes of public 
 servants. That the piactice of promotion by seniority appears to set a>ide all considerations 
 of qualificatio I ; the magistrate or collector is raise! to be an appellate judge in civil 
 causes, having previouslybeen employed in the active business of police, and chiefly criminal 
 law and miscellaneous business or revenue ; and from being a judge he is made a commis- 
 sioner of revenue, as far as appears, only because the salary of a judge is a few pepper-corns 
 less than that of a comnii?^ioner : in short, changes of employment take place in rapid suc- 
 cession, apparently without reference to aptitude, general or special, or to any consideiation 
 but the tastes, interests, or connexions of the individual, or his length of standing ; and one 
 consequence is that civilians are const;intly found at the head of departments, offices, and 
 courts, about which imd their business they know little or nothing. 
 
 The East India Company's system was founded on the supposition that the Hindu and 
 Mussulman popuhition on the one side, and on the other the Company and its servants, 
 were the only persons who had a right in the country, and could have a legitimate part in 
 the government : the civil service is a remnant of this system, is constituted on this supposi- 
 tion, and is, in fact, a monopoly of the best em()loymfiit'i. The institution in liiis respect 
 is unjiist both to the native and Christian population, and in the former class a consider- 
 able (art of the hitler class m;iy properly be nicluded, for great numbers of pure European 
 as well as mixed blood have been born in the country, theiefore are natives of it, and have 
 no other iiome. That the East India Company's commercial interests depended on its civil 
 service system may be true, but the ascendancy of the Crown can better be promoted by a 
 liberal policy in all respects to the Christian inhabitants. Your petitioneis beg your 
 Honourable House to take a survey of the general character and cundition of the classes to 
 which your petitioners belong in Lower Bengal. First, in Calcutta they have increased in 
 numbers, as the foreign commerce of India has increased, and they are essential as ils in- 
 struments; they are the security on which the British capitalist relies for his information 
 aad returns. They are essential also as aids to the natives in their commercial relations. In 
 Calcutta also are established a large body of British-born and country-born tradesmen, who 
 carry on many of the trades of Great Biitain which were formerly unknown in India ; by 
 these classes is diffused among the natives a practical taste for a thousand new means of 
 enjoyment supplied by the manufacturers of England. To these two classes must be 
 added the legal profession in both its branches, and the medical ; and if they are only found 
 in Ciilcutta, the cause is that the rest of the country is practically closed to them, not by 
 any deficiencies or want of enterprise of their own, but by the East India Company's 
 system. If a Sir William Jones, for example, were to desire to be a Company's judge, he 
 could only become a moonsiff at 120/. per annum, in the first instance, and the English 
 bar could find no scope in courts whose judges are notjui'ists, nor brought up in habits of 
 discussion. Secondly, out of Calcutta the Christian inhabiiants are connected with capi- 
 talists and merchants in different parts of the world, and they are engaged in superintend- 
 ing and urging production of indigo, silk, and other things which foim the exchanges with 
 Great Britain. As a whole, therefore, these classes may be described as comprising men of 
 all ages and occuj)ation — the mercantile, agricultural, professional, scientific, and mechani- 
 cal — they present a fair image and representation of British capital, enterprise, acquire- 
 ment, ingenuity, and talent, and of the middle classes of England. It is by these also that 
 the British people become known and their character understood by the native popidation. 
 Yet the East India Company's system, in a great degree, ignores these classes, refuses to 
 them proper laws, and offends them, for the sake of its civil service, by one general exclu- 
 sion from public employment on every fair principle, and leaves it to be supposed that 
 British ascendancy depends on their exclusion ; as if cadets, who come out at the age of 
 22, and whose life is passed in narrow official trammels, could alone be loyal. That the 
 privileges of the civil service are not only unjust in these respects, but they are direct 
 obstacles to the most necessary reforms; but this topic, leading as it does to questions of 
 administration, cannot be saiisfaclorily treated of in a petition. Your petitioners therefore 
 pray for such a change in the arrangements for supplying the public service in the civil 
 depanments as to your llonourahk- House may under the circumstances staled above appear 
 desirable; and pariicularly they submit to your Honomable House the cxpcdidicy and 
 necessity of inquiring into the nature and number of public employments in India, the 
 s-darics and eniulumenis attached to them, and the principles on which, if at all, the publio 
 service ought to be supplied from England. 
 
 The lHast Indians. 
 
 That your peiitioners also beg to bring under the consideration of your Honourable 
 House the case of the East Indians, a class all of whom are of Christian denomination, and^ 
 tlmutih of mixed blood, Bnti>h in education, habit, and family ties and connexions, but not 
 British subjtct> within the technical signification of the term, and consequently they have no 
 proper legal status, hut are subject to the same criminal law as the natives, and they have 
 no civij 1 iw out of Calcutta. This state of the law in lelation to tiiem is an admitted griev- 
 ance, and ihe bame grievance exists in the case of all foreigner-, not bing Hindus or 
 
 Miihouietans,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 487 
 
 Mahometans, such as French, Germans, and dther foreign people, and to vshom also may 
 be added the class of natives become Ciiiii>tiaii. That lo piovideaii iquitalilo status for all 
 (lasses not being British subjects, nor Hindus or IMalionietans, a law, known generally by 
 the name of the Lex Loci, was |Tep;ired by the Indian Law Commission, and it would have 
 relieved tiie East Indiiins, but it has not been passed,'and tlierefore your petitioners press 
 on your Ilonouiable House the said case of the East Indians and other said classes of 
 person*. 
 
 Education. 
 
 That your petitioners desire to represent, on behalf of the East Indians ;md others of 
 Christian denomination, who by circumsiances are permanent residents in India, the want 
 of collegiate institutions (or the higiier branches of education, and a university to grant 
 diplomas of qualification ; that in the (brmer, especially, law siiould be taught as a science, 
 and a class of per-ons might thus be formed, qualified, in the first instance, for |jrofessional 
 employment in the courts, and eventually for judicial oiKce ; and a very consiilerable body 
 of permanent Christian inhabitants desire that tlit- ir claims and interests should be consi- 
 dered in all arrangements fur the education of the people. 
 
 Public Wor/ts. 
 
 That there appears to be on the part of Government a lamentably defective apprecia- 
 tion of tl:e importance of roads and other public facilities of intercommunication. There is 
 only one metalled road in the Lower Provinces, the grand tjunkroad, and it is the only 
 road supported at the expense of Government ; the other roads are made by the land- 
 holders, on the requisition of the magistrate, or with local funds, and gener;illy they are 
 designed to connect the different police stations, and not to open trafhc or benefit the coun- 
 try people, and from the nature of their materials most of them during the rains are nearly 
 impassable. Other roads there are none; and the grand trunk road itself, for want of 
 bridges and sufficient repairs, is usually impassable for carriage tr-afhc during a part of the 
 rainy season. It is a stiiking proof of the little regard paid to the public convenience, so 
 far as this great highway is concerned, that of two small bridges which were carried away 
 by floods ill 1847, neither is yet rebuilt, though the situation is in one of the most poprdous 
 and highly cultivated districts, where the trafhc is great, and within 3.5 miles from Cal- 
 cutta ; but in the place of one only a ferry was for some years established, though both 
 these bridges appeared in the Report published by the House of Commons as public works 
 which had been sanctioned ; and to the present day they are replaced only with temporary 
 erections insufficient for the traffic, and on one of them tolls are established where there 
 were none before. 
 
 Of course, a government which makes no roads, builds no bridges across the great rivers, 
 much though tliey be needed. Public ferries there are, but many more there ought to be, 
 and their management is much complained of for delays and want of safetv. On some 
 rivers tolls are taken for keeping open their navigation, but the navigation derives little 
 benefit, and appears to be left to nature. The country offers singular facilities for canals, 
 for shortening the lines of communication from various districts to Calcutta and other 
 places, and opening the country generally, but they are not constructed. A canal which ter- 
 minates in Calcutta is allowed to remain so narrow as to be constantly choked up with 
 traffrc-boats, though it produces a large profit, and admits of enlargenrent. A large sur- 
 plus is derived fiom ferry tolls and similar local sources, and is appropriated by promises 
 and law, but not applied to public improvements, except that in the year 1850-51, a few 
 hundrtds of pounds were so applied from the ferry funds, and distributed among several 
 zillahs, each containing an area of several thousand square miles. 
 
 Your petitioners cannot pass unnoticed the subject of the I'ailway. Its construction 
 appears to be proceeding with slowness which no company of capitalists unguaranteed 
 would or could afli'ord to tolerate, and which, therefore, must be ascribed to the influence of 
 checks applied by Government to secure economy and prevent fraud, but which usually do 
 neither, as experience has proved, but are mere impediments, and have the sole merit of 
 giving to Government an amount of patronage. 
 
 That the Government has not at its disposal the variety or amount of scientific and 
 engineering skill rerpiisite for the proper proseciriion of public works of utility ; to the Mili- 
 tary Board, whicli has their superintendence, they are secondary objects, and wt rks are 
 constantly stofiped from ofhcers being called away to their military duties, and therefore 
 your petitioners think new provisions necessary (or the prosecution of such works. 
 
 The Course of Legislation. 
 
 That your petitioners beg to represent to your Honourable House a few traits of tir« 
 course of legislation. The early legislation presents some great measures, which uve clearly 
 referable to the impulse teinporarily given by the discussions in Parliametit. Among these 
 the establiohiiif lit of the liberty of the piess deserves the first and most grateful mention ; 
 it lias been justified by its fiuits; the press has proved its worth by, what is a great ment 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 ;>irie 
 o.io. ' :3 Q 3 under
 
 488 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. under tlie consideration of Parliament, your petitioners trust year Honourable House will 
 
 L " ' rather take your appreciation of it from your petitioners and the classes to which your 
 
 petitioners belong than from the official classes, many of whom appear to desire to restrain 
 and abridge its freedom. 
 
 Your petitioners also refer with unqualified satisfaction to the ahohtion of town and tran- 
 sit duties — another very early measure of the new Legislative Council. So long as ihe 
 East India Company's monopoly lasted, these duties were maintained ; their rt peal was 
 the inevitable consequence of commercial emancipation, and therefore really of Parliamentary 
 origin. The new cusioins duties on exports and imports also deserve a favourable mention, 
 as being moderate, but they were not established in Madras until some years later than 
 in Bombay and Bengal, and their uniformity has been again broken by a recent Act, whcb 
 raises the customs duties at Bombay alone ; and therefore the sincere gratulations of the 
 public are given, but with some doubt of the integrity of the fiscal principles of Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 An uniform coinage for India also was early established, and more recently a ship 
 registiation and other beneficial and similar commercial regulations. 
 
 In the department of English law there is much grouml for grateful remembrance. The 
 Wills Act has brought to India the recent statutory law of wills, and the law of dower and 
 iidieritance has been altered as in England; but these clianges and otheis of the same 
 kind are due to the influence of the hgal profession, in the Supreuie Court, the modes of 
 procedure have rapidly followed the relorms of procedure in England, not through legisla- 
 tion, but mainly in consequence of a wise provision in the constitution of the court itself — 
 Ihat its practice shall confoim to the Courts of Westminster Hall. It would be praise 
 undeserved to ascribe this large branch of legislation and reform to the spirit or judgment 
 i)f the Indian Government; the praise is due to those uho have no place m the East India 
 Company's system. On the other band, on matters over u hi<h British people have little 
 or no influence, legislation is much less commendable as a whole. 
 
 That when the civil jurisdiction of the East India Company's courts was universally ex- 
 tended over British subjects, it would have been fair to have enhirijed the appellate juris- 
 diction which the Supreme Court already possessed, mider statute 55 Geo. 3, c. 155, s. 107; 
 but, instead of this beuig done, the same Act which extended the jurisdietion of the Com- 
 pany's courts repealed the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. The preservation 
 of the appellate jurisdiction ol this couit would have been some protection against bad 
 procedure and misdecision. 
 
 That recent legislation is distinguished by a great number of enactments, creating powers 
 of an extraordinary kind unnecessarily, or conferring powers on persons not fit to exercise 
 them. Of the former kind in Calcutta, for example, where all legal authority reasonably 
 exercised is respected, to an ofticer called the collector of Calcutta (not the collector of 
 customs or of municipal taxes, but of the land rents of the East India Company, in its ancient 
 right of a zemindar or landholder) has been given, by a recent Act, power to punisii tor a 
 contempt to himself with a fine of 20Z., and in default of payment to one month's imprison- 
 ment; thereby creating (I) a new offence, and (2) denying the orditiary rediess for wrong; 
 inasmuch as the Act referred to obliges any one who may be wronged to seek redress out of 
 Calcutta in a court of the East India Comiiany in the country ; while (3) at the sime time 
 it empowers the officer iiimself to avail himself, in addition to the usual powers of distress, 
 of the Calcutta courts and magistrates. The collector in this case belongs to the privileged 
 service, and it is impossible not to surmise that the ollence would not have been created in 
 favour of a conmion tax or rent collector. As an instance of powers eonlerred on improper 
 persons may be mentioned an Act authorising native police offiieis to fine for an infraction 
 of the salt laws, and to imprison for a fortiiight. The Act Book abounds in legislation of 
 this character. 
 
 That the legislation rcspectins critne is equally nnsaiisfaetory. By reason of the state of 
 the police, cveiy landholdi r, planter, banker, considerable trader, and storekeeper, is obligvd 
 to keep men, often in very considi rable nutiibers, am, ed according to the custom of the 
 countiy, to defend his pro])eity again»t midnight gangs, called Dacoits, and other robbers. 
 Such irregular forces, though necessary for self-protection, are of course liable to be employed 
 by neighbiurs at enmity against one another, and bv circumstances to become aggressive; 
 and hence the frequency of aflVays, which are to be deplored. But the primary evil, in the 
 whole set of circumstances, is the state of the police, ami its reform is the proper atid essential 
 remtdy. Instead of which, mere legislation against ciime is resorted to; itigeiinities are 
 exerted to bring the propeitied classts within the criminal categories; the laws on paper are 
 made nioie severe; increased judiciary po^Ntrs are given to the magistracy ; but the real evil 
 remains unabated. It is obvious that legislation of this kind is only acceleration on the 
 road to ruin. 
 
 Act for relieving Magistrates fTom Responsibility. — That in 1850 an Act was passed for 
 the protection of magistrates and others acting judicially from lesponsibility to law. That 
 the said Act, in the obvious meaning of its terms, protects theu» in any illegality not clearly 
 referable to a malicious object or intent; it protects ignorance, negligence, and incapacity, 
 and is inconsistent with a gov( rnmenl aicoiding to law, and with justice to the Cifumunity. 
 'lliai if infeiior judicial officers are thus protected, the (jovciniiienl will be called on and 
 ought to give redress to paitics illegally injured, and that thus, indirectly but inevitably, the 
 said Act also places tla- entire magi>tracy and inferior judici.d officers in a state of lespousi- 
 bility for their law to the Executive Government, and destroys their judicial independence, 
 and iliercfore the said Act \-> also contrary to all sound jirincijilcs of public policy. 
 
 Post-age, —
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 489 
 
 Postage. — That your petitioners have still to desire the recognition on the part of tlie Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 Indian Government of tlie ])rinciple on wliicli poslage rates in England have recently been 
 
 reduced by I'ailianient, anil a general reduction of postage rates in conformity with this 
 principle. That your petitioners believe that on inquiiy your Honourable House would find 
 that the existing inland postage rates defray ihe cost of the carriage, not only of all private 
 letters and heavy post-office esiabli^hments, but also of all the correspondence of the Govern- 
 ment of India, presidency governments, and their numerous mililaiy and civil depart- 
 ments. 
 
 Tolls oil Roads and Bridges. — That your petitioners deprecate the establishment of tolls 
 on any of the great highways made or kejit up at the expense of Government, and for which 
 an authority has been recently given to the presidency governments by an Act of the Legis- 
 lative Covmcil passed in 1851 ; and the said Act extends to bridges also. The only previous! 
 Acts of the kind were two Acts passed in 1837 and 1838 for local tolls at the Bhore Ghaut, 
 in or near the town of Bombay, and which tolls had long before existed under local regu- 
 lations. Under the new Act, a toll has been established on a bridge which is not stronf 
 
 III • 
 
 enough to bear an elephant, and an elephant which, for want of a proper bridge, is obliged 
 to ford the river still pays a new toll of 2*. 
 
 The East India Compaiiy^s Spirit License. — That your petitioners cannot pass unnoticed 
 one cause of great injury to the poorer classes of people. Temperate as has always been 
 suppo^ed by nature, their temperance as a habit is fortified in the case of the Hindus by the 
 rules of caste and the Hindu reliiiion, and in the case of the Mahometans by tlie commands 
 of their prophet and all the principles of the Koran, and in the case of both by native public 
 opinion. That indulgence in spirituous liquois consequently was discountenanced by the 
 peo|)le in general, and was confined to the very lowest classes, or the two lowest classes, in 
 the long seitled pcn-ts of I5engal, and the united action of religion and public opinion probably 
 would have prevented its spreading. That within a few years Government has extended to 
 large villages the licensing system for the sake of revenue, and its effect has been to lead 
 to the esiablishment all over the country of shops for the sale of spirits. The license of 
 Government is found to dincountenance the |>ublic opinion of the native community, and in 
 every considerable vdlage there is a licensed shop, where, until the license was established, 
 there was no such shop at all. Religion, caste, and public opinion are ineffectual against 
 the license, and the whole agricultural and labouring population is thus being corrupted, 
 and falling into habits of indulgence in a new form of intoxication. 
 
 That this is a great evil to the employers, as well as to the people, and British residents 
 in the country universally attest its progressive increase, and generally ascribe it to the East 
 India Company's liocnsmg svstem. That there is no hope of the abolition of this system 
 without the interlerence of Parliament, and yo'ir petitioners pray for an immediate inquiry, 
 under the direct autliority of Parliament, into the extent and cause of the alleged evil. 
 
 Salt Duties. — That the salt duties appear to your petitioners deserving the consideration 
 of Parliament, as pressing with considerable severity on a very poor population, and the 
 occasion of numerous small oppressions and some other evils. It is true that the duty is no 
 longer founded in a monopoly, but its amount is upwards of 400 per cent, on the natural cost 
 of the article, and its cost to the consumers is still further enhanced by the means necessarily 
 used for the protection of the revenue. Many proofs that the duty presses with very great 
 severity might be given, but one must here be sufficient, namely, that out of Calcutta, as far 
 as the North-west Provinces, pure salt, as sold by the Government or imported, is almost 
 tmknown to the mass of the people; adulterations of all kinds are resorted to to reduce its 
 price to their means of purchasing ; a wholesome condiment is thus often rendered unwhole- 
 some, and as to all purposes for which pure salt is necessary the duty is a prohibition. More- 
 over, the revenue can be protected only by a severe system of fines, penalties, and confisca- 
 tions, and a verv inconvenient interference with general traffic. On the banks of all the 
 great rivers within tlie tidal limiis, salt guards are stationed to prevent smuggling, and all 
 traffic-boats are subject to molestation from native officers, who levy small contributions on 
 them. In ihe interior, and on different parts of the frontier in the North-west Provinces, 
 there is a jealous excise system; and in the Pinijab the means employed to prevent smug- 
 gling are a source of great irritation. It should fujther be nientioneil that the manufacture 
 of saltperre was very recently pioposed to be put under new regulations of a most injurious 
 kind to the saltpetre trade, for no pm-pose but to prevent the pioduciion of an article for the 
 adulteration of salt, which the saltiieiie works are supposed to supply to the dealer in that 
 article. And to protect the inferior salt of Lower Bengal, that ot the North-west Provincea 
 is subject to a ditfc rential customs duty. 
 
 That under two sections of the Charter Act, viz., the 81st and 8'2d, British-born subjects 
 are restricted to provinces acquired before the year 1800, except with license. The restric- 
 tion probably has remained to a great degree inoperative, but it is a stigma derived from the 
 policy of former days when all, except the servants of the East India Company, were regarded 
 as iiiierlopers and oppressors. In tlie opinion of your petitioners every British subject ought 
 to have free access to every British province, except perhaps in time of actual wax (Jiag>an(e 
 belli). Your petiti..neis I lierefore desire the abolition ol the said restrictions. 
 
 In adverting to the course of legislation, your petiuoners must also deplore the little usa 
 made of ihe Indian Law Commission, which \\as appointed under the autliority of the 
 Chailei Act to prepare laws fur all clas'ies of people. 
 
 s 
 
 o.io. :', y 4 
 
 The
 
 490 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7. 77,^ Supreme Government. 
 
 That the above facts and circumstances press on all rational men the consideration of ihe 
 constitution ot the supreme authorities. 
 
 With respect to the Supreme Government of India, your petitioners beg to point out the 
 paucity of its members, at no time exceeding six, and usually only five persons, and it* 
 necessary consequence, that the same persons, with the exception of one, form the Execu- 
 tive Government and the Legislative Councd, including in both the Governor-general, and 
 that therefore practically the only real distmction is between the Governor-general in his 
 separate official capacity and the rest of the council, and that the distinction between the 
 Executive Government and Legi^lative Council is a nominal one. When, therefore, it is 
 considered that the political and legislative authority of the Supreme Government extends 
 over all India, and to many foreign oriental relations, that it has exclusive authority to act 
 or decide on some subjects of the greatest difficulty and importance, that the local govern- 
 ments are entitled to resort to it for advice and direction, and in many matters are not 
 qualified to act without iis concurrence; that its authority is embarrassed by subordination 
 to greater powers at home, whom, as their agent, it has to keep informed, and to receive 
 instructions from them, and that in this respect it has to keep up a certain harmony of 
 ideas and operations, it may well be believed that five persons or six are insufficient for 
 such extensive, complicated, and diversified functions. 
 
 That your petitioners also beg to point out how the paucity of the members operates on 
 tbe choice ot persons, and consequently affects the quality and composition of the govern- 
 ment. The Governor-general is always one of necessity; one is a military man, one is 
 a lawyer for legislation, the remaining two must be selected for their Indian experience, 
 but Indian experience, though essential, is narrow, being gained usually in one department 
 of civil duties, and in only one presidency, namely, in Bengal, in Madras, in Bombay, 
 in the Noilh-west Provinces, or in the Punjaub (may now be added), and the population, 
 institutions, revenue, and judicial systems of the different presidencies widely differ. And 
 therefore your petitioners, without even questionini; the fitness of any individual, may still 
 reo-ard the council as very deficient, and especially as wanting in variety of composition, 
 and as of too limited atiainments and experience — deficiencies which would account in 
 some degree for the little progress made in all great ini|irovements, and the retrogade 
 tendency of government. 
 
 That by the facts above stated, and these reflections, your petitioners are inevitably led 
 to recommend a considerable addition to the Legislati\e Coumil, and especially the admis- 
 sion to it of non-official persons from the commercial and professional classes. 
 
 That the office of Governor-general requires adaptation to the empire as it exists at the 
 present day. That your petitioners believe there is not to be found any exact account or 
 definition of the separate powers of the Governor-general. That for the last 20 years 
 the Governor-general has been more than half the time away from the seat of government, 
 and your petiiioners believe that the ordinary affairs of the government are occasionally put 
 to much inconvenience by his absence. That it is obvious that the emergencies which 
 require his absence would generally leave him little leisure for distant concerns. Tliat the 
 most eminent capacity for deciding in a council is often a very insufficient qualification for 
 deciding alone. That the Governor-general is obliged to delegate to the council, under a 
 temporary president, the decision of matters on which his personal advice and orders must 
 be desirable, and when, as may and has hapjiened, either the Governor-general or the 
 council declines or is legally incompeient to act without the concurrence of the other, the 
 public business stands still, arrears jiceumulate (of which some are swallowed up by mere 
 lapse of time), private interests suffer, public interests suffer, and government falls, first into 
 disorder, then into apathy, and much which requires to be done is finally left undone. 
 
 That your petitioners also beg your Honourable House to reflect on the prejudicial influ- 
 ence which the absence of the sole represeniaiive of the Crown must have on the spirit of 
 the administration, he being also the sole Briiish statesman by profession in the Govern- 
 ment, the only member of it who has been brought u|) among the public men of England, 
 who knows their mode of thinking and understands the parliamentary system, and can 
 appreciate the importance of non-official and public opinion. 
 
 The Home Authorities. — That your petitioners also submit that the present opportunity 
 should not be lost of revising the manner in wliich the home authorities are constituted, and 
 their functions are arranged. That since the last Charter Act, the Court and Board have 
 been opposite litigant parlies in the Court of Queen's Bench, apparently in consequence of 
 a mutual misunderstanding as to their respective powers. That a contest also arose between 
 the same authorities rtspecting the recall of a Governor-general, the two cases together 
 presenting ihe fclloning anomaly, nan.ely, that the Court is bound to transmit to India, for 
 the Governor-geneial, the mandate of a jiarticular policy, without exercising any discretion; 
 but, on the other hand, lias the power to recall a Governor-general who may be specially 
 charged wiih the execution of that policy, and may have done his duty satisfactorily to the 
 Queen's Government; and hence their respective powers appear not well arranged, nor well 
 understood. That of these bodies, one appears deficient in that knowledge of the country 
 and people which the other body possesses, while the latter appears deficient in the higher 
 qualiiies required in the governors of a great country; and hence the laws, the courts of 
 justice, the police, and otner institutions remain in the state already described, so unworthy 
 o( the British authority and the British name. 
 
 That your petitioners, consequently, feel themselves bound to declare their oninion. anrl, 
 
 as
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 491 
 
 as they believe, the opinion of ilit- public ol india gcnernlly, to be unfavouiable to the Appendix, No, 7. 
 
 present double Government ot a Board of Control and Couit of Directors. 
 
 That the manner in which tiie Directors of the East India Company are appointed is 
 mo>t olijeclionable, in ihe lollowiiit;; and some other resjiects, namely, (1.) That, altiioiio-h 
 their functions are politically of tlie highest order, and atfcct tiie well-being of Imlia, they 
 are sell'-pioposed, m the fiist instance, and wiihont any security for their being qualified, 
 or proper persons to be entrusted. (2.) That they are elected by a proprietary body, whose 
 capital is now guaranteed by Parliament, and which, therefore, has lost that interest in 
 the Governmeni of India whicl) formed the basis of their elective privilege ; and (3.), which 
 body requiies to be canvassed, and gives its votes on a well-grounded calculation of a 
 return of benefit in the distribution of patronage; and (4.) That such a system has the 
 effect of preveniing highly qualified persons from ever l)ccoming directors. 
 
 Stall' I'f the Country. — That, from what is above stated res])ecting the law, the law 
 courts, and the police, your Honourable House will he able to draw, with tiie fullest assur- 
 ance of truth, many conclusions respecting the condition of the countrv. It might appear 
 paradoxical to deny its prosperity in the fice of the vast increase which has taken place in 
 the foreign commerce; but it is undeniable that, contemporaneously with this increase, 
 crimes of a violent character have increased, and law and police are also regarded as 
 alibrding little security either for rights of persons or property. Hence the limited appli- 
 cation of British cafiital to agriculture and mines, and the limited employment of British 
 skill ill India (the former heing confined to a few valuable articles, such as indigo — for 
 the cultivation of which the soil and climate are so superior as to afford the profits almost 
 of a monopoly — silk, and a few others); and hence, also, small capitals can rarely be 
 employed in India. The planter or capitalist in the interior never or rarely leaves his 
 capital wdien he himself quiis tb.e coiintiy in consequence of its insecurity, and from ihis 
 cause results the high rate of interest of money. Landholders pay 25 and :30 per cent., and 
 the lyoi or cultivator is in a worse relation than ot servitude to the monev lender. Your 
 petiiicmeis, therefore, think that inquiry ought to be instituted by Pailiament into the state 
 of the country, in order to provide some probable remedy for the evils adverted to. 
 
 That, adverting to the inadequate manner in whicli the c>bjects of the last Charter Act 
 have been carried out, and to the seveial facts above stated, your jietitioners susgest the 
 expediency of making the new arrangeinents of the Gi)vernment for a shorter term ot vears, 
 and at fir>t only for one _\ear; and, in conclusion. 
 
 Your petitioners pray your Honourable House to take the several matters aforesaid iutJ 
 your fullest and most serious consideration, and to take such measures as to your Honour- 
 able House may appear necessary to establish the several ameliorations and reforms desired 
 by your petitioners. 
 
 And your petitioners shall ever pray. 
 
 P. Clarkson Reed, 
 
 Zemindar of Purneah and Calcutta. 
 Hindsey Reed, 
 
 Barrisier-at-law of Calcutta. 
 
 Tlieodore Dichens, 
 Barrister-at-law and Advocate of the Supreme Court, 
 
 kc. &c. &c. 
 
 The Petition of ihe Master Cutler, and the Cutlets' Company, of Sheffield and Hallamshire, 
 
 in Meeting assembled, 
 Showetb, 
 
 That, Her Majesty's Ministers having announced an intention to submit to Parliament 
 during the present Session some measure for the future government of India, vour 
 petitioners are anxious to record their dissatisfaction with the limited extent of our commerce 
 with that country, and their regret that so little progress has been made in the development 
 of its rich and varied resources. 
 
 That your petitioners are of opinion that in any enactment for the future government of 
 India the follov\ing suggestions should be adopted : 
 
 Istly. That it be regaideil as the imperative duty of the Government of India to promoto 
 the cuitivation of the soil, and to remove all obstacles which impede the progress of industry. 
 
 2dly. That beyond making useful experiments the Government should not be jiermitted 
 to become cultivators, manufactuiers, or traders. 
 
 3dly. That in conducting their financial operations the Government should be foibidi.'en 
 lo become puichasers of any kind of pioduce on their own account, or to receive by 
 hypothecation produce purchased by any other party. 
 
 4thly. T hat the Government be compelled 10 expend a purt on of the revenue collecied in 
 India ill the development ot the resources of the country, as well as to afford every facility 
 for its profitable occupation ; that with this view such public v\orks sliould be promoted as 
 are calculated to facilitate intercourse with, or improve the pliysical condition of, ihe 
 population, to increase the production oi cotton and oth. r valuable raw materials, as also to 
 encourage a sy»tem of general industry. 
 
 0.10. 3 R 5thlv. That
 
 492 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, x\o. 7. 3thly. That ten per cent, of the revenues of India be applied to the public works above 
 — L ' ■ alluded to, such as the consuuction of trunk lines of railways, the formation and improve- 
 ment of roads and bridges, the deepening and other improvement of rivers, the formation 
 and care of reservoirs and canals, the erection of piers, and construction of harbours, break- 
 waters, lighthouses, and all other engineering agencies required in a civilized and commercial 
 country. 
 
 6thly. That the application of a portion of revenue allotted to useful public works be 
 under the control of a Board of Works, established and conducted in India, the members of 
 which should have full, extensive, but defined powers, and be nominated jointly by the 
 Imperial Government and the Indian executive. 
 
 Tthly. Tliat the Government should give every facility for the permanent occupation 
 of land, by removing the objections so often urged to a fluctuating land-tax, bv encou- 
 raging the purchase, for cultivation of ihe waste and oiher lands of India, and by o-ivino- 
 such certainty of tenure as will insure the safe application of capital to the universal 
 cultivation of the soil. 
 
 8thly. That prompt attention be paid to the removal of evils now existing in India, 
 consequent upon the uncertainty of the due administration of justice and the prevaiiino- 
 ignorance of the people. 
 
 9thly. That an annual detailed report on ail East India affairs should, as was formerly 
 done, be laid before Parhament by a Minister of the Crown. 
 
 Your petitioners commend the foregoing propositions to the favourable attention of your 
 Honourable House, and humbly and earnestly pray that the same may have statutory 
 effect in any legislation for the future government of India. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray, &c. 
 
 Michael Hunter, Master Cutler. 
 
 The Petition of the Leeds Chamber of Commerce, by their Chairman, 
 Humbly showeth, 
 
 That, as the period is now rapidly approaching when Her Majesty's Government will 
 have 10 submit to your Honourable House their plans far the future management of our 
 East India possessions, your petitioners are desirous of recording their dissatifaction with 
 the limited extent of our commercial transactions with that country, and at the same time 
 stating their regret that comparatively little progress has hitherto been made in the deve- 
 lopment of its rich and varied resources. 
 
 That your petitioners are of opinion that the following suggestions should be adopted in 
 any future legislation for the government of that country : 
 
 Firstly. That it be regarded as the imperative duty of the Government of India to remove 
 all obstacles which impede the progress of industry, and to promote the cultivation of the soil. 
 
 Secondly. That, beyond making useful experiments, the Government should not be per- 
 mitted to become cultivators, manufacturers, or traders. 
 
 Thirdly. That the Government be compelled to expend a portion of the revenues collected 
 in India in the develo|)ment of the resources of tlie country, as well as to afford every 
 facility for its profitable occupation; that with this view such public works should be pro- 
 moted as are calculated to facilitate intercourse with or improve the physical condition ol the 
 population, to increase the production of valuable raw material ; as also to encourage a 
 system of general industry, and the conbtruction of trunk lines of railways, the formation 
 and improvement of roads and bridges, the deepening and other improvement of rivers, the 
 formation and care of reservoirs and canals, the erection of piers, and construction of 
 harbours, breakwaters, lighthouses, and all other engineering agencies required in a civilized 
 and conmiercial country. 
 
 Fourthly. That the Government should give every facility for the permanent occupation 
 of land, by removins: tlie objections so often urged to a fluctuating laud-tax, by encouraging 
 the purchase for cultivation of the waste and other lands of India, and by giving such 
 certainty of tetmre as will insure the safe application of capital to the universal cultivation 
 of the soil. 
 
 Fifthlv. That prompt attention be paid 10 the removal of evils now existing in India, 
 consequent upon the uncertainty of the due administration of justice and the prevailing 
 ignorance of the |)eo|jle. 
 
 Sixthly. That an annual detiiled report on all East India affairs should, as was formerly 
 done, be laid before Parliament by a minister of the Crown. 
 
 Your petitioners commend ihe foregoing propositions to the favourable attention of your 
 HGnoural)le House, and humbly and earnestly pray that the same may have statutory etfect 
 in any legislation for the future government of India. 
 
 And your petitioners will evc-r pray, &c. 
 
 (signed) Geo. Goodman, 
 President of the Leeds Chamber of Commerce.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES, 493 
 
 The Petition of the Mayor, Aldcinun, and Burgesses of the Borougli of Sheffield, in Appendii, No. 7. 
 
 Parliament assembled, 
 
 Showeth, 
 That it is the duty of all governments to promote the liajipiness and improvement of the 
 people under their control. 
 
 That the history of the British Government of India has been one continued scene of war 
 and annexation, and that the consequences of such a course of proceeding are manifest in the 
 present commercial position of the East India Company. 
 
 That peiitions liave recently been sent from the people of India to the British Parliament 
 detailing tlu.' manifest grievances under which they sutler. 
 
 That it is desirable, just, and necessary that these petitions should be thoroughly investi- 
 gated before anv Act for the renewal of the Indian government is determined upon. 
 
 That it is also desirable, that the present anomalous Government of Imha should be super- 
 seded by a government more directly responsible to 1 'arliament, and that 1 he local institutions 
 of imha should, as fai as practicable, be made to approximate in principle to the institutions 
 of England. 
 
 Your petitioners therefore pray that, before the renewal of any Act relative to the Govern- 
 ment of India be determined upon, a thorough investigation may be made into the general 
 state of that country and into the proceedings of the East India Company, and that in the 
 future a government may be established which shall be directly lesponsible to the Biitish 
 Parliament. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray, &c. 
 
 Williatn Anthony Matthews, Mayor. 
 Sheffield, 13 April 1853. 
 
 The Petitioii of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Sunderland, in 
 
 Council assembled, 
 
 Showeth, 
 That your petitioners consider that the shipping, mercantile, and industrial interests of 
 Great Britain are to a large extent involved in the welfare of the Indian empire, and ihey 
 are of opinion that the manner in which its afl'airs have hitherto been conducted by the 
 Imperial Government, the extraordinary power possessed by the East India Conipany, and 
 the way in which that power has been exercised, have been alike detrimenial to the general 
 interests of the one hundred and fifty millions of inhabitants of India and the people of this 
 country. 
 
 Your petitioners therefore consider that the time has come when it is imperative that the 
 Government of India ought to be thoroughly reformed, but they deprecate any hasty legis- 
 lation on the subject, especially if it should have for its object the renewal of the chartered 
 privileges of the East India Company. 
 
 Your petitioners therefore pray that a searching inquiry may be entered upon, embracing 
 the evidence of eminent natives of India as well as the employes of the India Companv, 
 and Government officials, with a view to the introduction of such a measure for the future 
 Government of India as shall remedy the evils complained of, and secure to the people of 
 this country and the natives of India the benefits they would derive from responsible and 
 honest government. 
 
 James Hartley, Mayor. 
 
 ■3^ 
 
 The humble Petition of the Members of the British Indian Association, and other Native 
 
 Inhabitants of the Bengal Presidency, 
 Showeth, 
 That your petitioners are desirous of bringing to the notice of your Honourable House 
 the sentiments entertained by themselves and the most intelligent part of tlieir native fellow- 
 subjects all over the country on those points which, in their humble opinion, ought to be 
 taken into consideration at the period of the termination of the charter oranled to the East 
 India Company by the Act passed in the reign of his late Majesty King William the Fourth, 
 entitled " An Act for effecting an Arrangement with the East India Company, and for the 
 better Government of his Majesty's Indian Territories, till the 30th day of Apr'il 1864." As 
 subjects of tlie Crown of Great Britain, the natives of this country'entertain the deepest 
 sentiments of loyalty and fidelity to Her Majesty, and sincerely desire the permanence of 
 the British supremacy in India, which has ensured lo them freedom from foreign incursions 
 arid intestine dissensions, and security from spoliation by lawless power. Placed by the 
 wisdom of Parliament for a limited time, and on certain conditions, under the admmistraiion 
 of the East India Company, they have enjoyed the blessings of an improved form of tTovern- 
 ment, and received many of the advantages incidental to their connexion with one of the 
 o-io- 3 K 2 greatest
 
 494 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix No. 7. g*'f ^t^st and most prosperous nations. They are impressed with a sense of the value and 
 
 importance or ti-.ese and similar benefits, and of their obligations to the nation Ir un which 
 
 they have, under Divine Providence, derived them. They cannot but feel, however, that 
 they have not profiled by their connexion with Great Britain to the cxient which they had 
 a risiht to look for. Under the influence of such a feeling, they regarded with deep interest 
 the inquiries conducted by Cominiitees of both Houses of Parliameni, between the years 
 1831 and 1833, preparatory to the passing of the late Charter Act. The fact of such 
 inquiries being on foot, suggestive as it was of great administrative reforms, induced the 
 people, who were unaccustomed to make any demonstration of their sentiments res]ieeting 
 the acts and measures of their rulers, to await the result of the deliberaiious of the Imperial 
 Parliament. 
 
 2. That the principal changes made by tlie abovementioned enactment consisled in the 
 increase of the powers of tlie Crown and the Board of Control over the Court of Directors, 
 and those of the Supreme Government over the subordinate governments; in the power of 
 legislating for all classes which uas conferred on the Supreme Government, and as auxiliary 
 thereto the appointment of a law commission, and of one member not of the civil service lo 
 the Supreme Council ; in the extension of the powers of the Governor-general when absent 
 from the Council ; in the admission of British subjects to trade in Ciiina, and to hold lands 
 in India ; and in the increase of the ecclesiastical estiblishment f'oi the benefit of professors 
 of the Christian religion at the expense of the general revenue of the country. But no pro- 
 vision was made for introducing those benefits which the circumstances oi India notoriously 
 required ; such as the relaxation of the pressure of the revenue system, by lightening the 
 land-tax vvhtre it was variable, or erecting |iublic works of utility calculated to develope ihe 
 resources of the country, and promote the growth and increase of commerce and manufac- 
 tures ; the improvement ot the system of judicial ydmiiiistralion, by the selection of qualified 
 ofhiers, the appointment of pioper ministerial oflricers, the abolition of stamps on law pro- 
 ceedinos, and other salutary measuies ; the protection of life and property by the employment 
 of a police adequate to the puipose in pointof numbers and discipline under the control of a 
 proper number of experienced magistrates; relief from the gigantic monopolies whieh the 
 East India Company maintained veiy inconsistently with their position as rulers; the 
 encouiagement of the manulactuies and commerce of ilie country, whieh had been greaily 
 depressed in consequence of throwing open the trade with India, the education of the people 
 on an adequate scale, for which t!ie grant of a lac of rupees, authorised by Parliament in 
 1813, WHS manifesily insufficient; arrangements for the appointment to the higher oihces of 
 persons better qualified by their experience, capacity, and knowledge of the languages and 
 laws of the countiy than those who were heretofore sent out, usually before they had emerged 
 from the slate of aiiolescen(.'e ; and ihe admission of the natives to a pariicip.Uion in those 
 rights which are conceded by all constitutional governments, and which would qualify them 
 to enjoy the benefit office institutions at a future period. The only privilege conferred on 
 the natives was the declaration in section 87 of the abovementioned Act," that no native ot" 
 the said territories, nor any natural-born subject of His Majesty resident therein, shall, by 
 reason only of his religion, place of birth, descent, colour, or any of them, be disablerl from 
 holding any place, othce, or employment under the said Company." 
 
 3. That the natives of this countiy were disappointed in the expectation ihey had formed, 
 that the charter of the Company, if renewed, would be so modified as to provide for some of 
 those atlministrative reforms which were calleil for, and also to secure to them some of thuse 
 civil and political rights which they considered themselves entitled to, even without reference 
 to their position as subjects of the British Crown. That ft eling of (iisappointment has been, 
 if possible, deepened by their perceiving that, notwithstanding the declaration just recited, 
 the natives id' India, with one or two exceptions of very recent date, have not been 
 appoiired lo any but subordinate oftices under the conif-aiiy, such as were very inferior in 
 point of respectability a\id emolument to the posis held by the youngest ol their civil 
 servants. 
 
 4. That, after beini: in much uncertainty as to the intentions of Her Majesty's Govern- 
 ment to make incpiiries into the affairs of India, with reference to the approaching termina- 
 tion ot the Company's charter, your petitioners have learnt with satisfaction ot the 
 appointment of Committees of both Houses of Parliament to take into consideration the 
 mode in which the government of the British possessions in India is in future lo be con- 
 ducted. They cannot disguise fioui themselves the difficulties which those Committees will 
 experience in endeavouring to ascertain the nature and results of the administiation of the 
 East India Coiiipanv. The evidence accessil)ie to them will be chirfly of parties who are 
 more or less iiitere>ted in the maintenance olihc present sysiem of the Biltish India admi- 
 nistration, and who cannot be expected, even were some of them free from a natural bias, 
 to enter into the feelings and wants of a peo])le widely diHering from them in religion, 
 manners, and habits. But your petitioners rely on the wisdom and justice of your 
 llontuirable House to give due consideration to the reprisentations which they are 
 emboldened to submit, by the consciousness that, though diil'erin^ in religion and colour, 
 they are vour f'ellovv-siibjects, and that their claims as such will not he disallowed. 
 
 u. That your petitioners snbmii that it is for many rc;isons fit and proper that the period 
 of such air.ingenients should he shoriened, in order to bring the meiiis and working of them 
 sooner under ilie leviiw of Pailianu lit. The governments of remote dependencies of the 
 empire are geneiallv liable to be ill-conducted, particularly when those dependencies are of 
 
 the
 
 SELFXT COMMITTEB ON INDIAN TERinTORIES. 495 
 
 the niagnituJe to which Her Majesly'scldiiiinioiis in India have at this day attained, and when Appt'ndix, Xo. 
 
 there are various and dependent boards, and the yrouiids of their proceediniis cannot be 
 
 scrutinized by the public, excejjt by the publication of correspondence by order of Parlia- 
 ment. It stems of paramount im])()rtaiicc, tlierefore, tliat tlie administiafion of India slioiihl 
 be moie frequently bronchi nndei the levisiono* the supreme auihoi ity. An appeal to facts 
 will corroborate this argument. By the last three charters, the Linverninent of the British 
 Indian territories was continiud to the Eas! India Conipmy for terms ot twenty years ; but, 
 however urgently reforms and improvements in the system of government might seem to be 
 required, none could virtually be introduced till the expiration of that long peiiod. Accord- 
 ingly, it required that period before Briiish subjects were perniitied to exercise iheir natural 
 rieht of residino; in, or even of tradinij; with, this part of titeu- sovereinn's dominions, and 
 another like period before they wviv. permiued 10 enter into the trade with China, which was 
 open to all other nations. If I3riiish subjects had to wait such protracted periods, in breaking 
 through a monopoly, the natives of India cannot havcabetier prospect of obtaining reforms 
 which they may pray for, or rights which may be admitted to be unjustly witliheld from iheai. 
 Your peiitioiiers are therefore most anxious that the icrm of the arrangements which may 
 be nexteniered upon for the government of this country should not be extended beyond ten 
 years. 
 
 6. The Home Government. — Thai your petitioner'* submit that the existing system for the 
 managenunt of the affans of Intlia by the Court of Diieclois and the Board of Control is 
 objectionable on account of its complexity and expensiveness as well as on other grounds. 
 The Coiu't is composed of 24 diiectors, elected for five years each, who receive each a 
 salary of 300 /. — a sum which is manifestly inadequate to secure the services of persons 
 qualified to assist in the government of a vast territory, and willing conscientiously to devote 
 their time and atientionto that great undertaking. But in lealiiy the services ol the directors 
 are compensated by tlie extensive ])ationage which each of tbe'ii enjoys, consisting in the 
 right to dispose of ceriain lucrative civil and military and other offices in India. For 
 the manner in which that extensive patronaue is used by them they are under no sort of 
 responsibility. Being originally a body of merchants, delegated by their fellow-merchants 
 to carry on the trade with India for their mutual benefit, they received a suitable salary for 
 the extra attention they gave to their joint concern ; and it was a part of tlieir functions 
 to select the men whom they sent out to India as merchants, factors, or writers, to look 
 after their enterprises, prepare investments of goods for the b.nglish market, and assist 
 in the performance of other details of their commercial speculations. The salaries and 
 emoluments given to their servants in India being small in proportion to the extent of iheir 
 business, the selection of proper employees was a respunsible duty, and not a source of exten- 
 sively coveted patr(niage. The directors themselves were chosen for their knowledge of 
 commercial uansactions and capacity for commercial pursuits without reference to admi- 
 nistrative qualities; but since, in consequence of the change in the character of the East 
 India Company, the directors are required to be qualified not as merchants but as 
 Indian statesmen, it is obvious that the principle on which and the persons by whom 
 they are selected should undergo a corresponding alteration. The Board of Control was 
 appointed with reference to the inconsistency of placing uader a body of merchants the 
 goveinineiit of extensive territorial possessions, and with a view to the political acts of that 
 body bi ing under the actual direction of Her Majesty's Government. Accordingly it was 
 and is composed of a portion of Cabinet Ministers, but the chief responsibiliiy is ccimmonly 
 understood 10 be left with the President of the Board, who holds no other apiiointment in the 
 ministry, and alone receives a salary as a member of the Board. The control of the Board 
 extends to a part only of the acts of the directors ; the latter, iherefbie, are in many respects, 
 particularly in the disposal of their pairoiiage, without any check or responsibility. In those 
 matters in whicli the responsibiliiy of the directors to the Board has been provitled for the 
 contioi exercised is either inthrector liable to be resisted. The directors may be compelled 
 to issue orders afi'ecting great political interests without knowing, or at least without 
 approving, their tenor. The same directors may recall a governor-general who is in the 
 Confidence of the Ministry, but is adverse to the objects of the directors' patronage, and thus 
 defy the powers of tlie Board set over them. They have the powers of instructing the Legis- 
 lative Cimncil of India to enact what laws ihey please, and of abrogatiiiii; anv laws thatliave 
 been passed by that council ; and it will be in vain for the people of India to offer any 
 remonstrances to a body so conslituted and vested with such powers. The people of India 
 too are often at a loss to comprehend from whom ceriain measures emanate, wliether from 
 the local government by whom they are promulgated, or from the directors, under whose 
 instructions the Government act, or from the Board of Contiul, who have the ricjht to pre- 
 scribe tlie mstructicins which shall be sent to the Government for their guidance. Hence, 
 they are prtcluded from nftering remonsiraiices, not kneWing but that the anihoriiv remon- 
 strateil with may ha\e been acting entirely under diciation. Although it is fit that the 
 general direction of the afiairs of India should resi with Her Majesty's Ministers, subject 
 to the Controlling authority of Parliament, yet it seems obvious that the persons who have 
 to deliberate on the questions which arise relative to the good iiovermnent of the country 
 slnmld be men not only ofureat abiliiies, but sufficiently acquainted with the country whose 
 destinies are to l<e placed in their hands, and at the same lime taken fioni such ditterent 
 classes as to ensure a freedom fiom all class and other siiiis;er influences. Vonr petitumers 
 therefore subuii I that, on the grounds set forth, the fu tin e management of the affairs ol Briiish 
 India should be vested in one body, consisting df not more than 12 members, half of uhoin 
 may l;e nominated by the Crown, and the other half elected by a popular body, hut all of 
 0.10. 3 R 3 them
 
 496 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 . d" N - '•'^^'^ holdino- the appointment for five years, and going out of office by rotation ; that a suit- 
 ppenjx^ 0. I- ^i^j^ salary should be attached to the office, not only to secure men of the best abihiies, and 
 to ensure tiieir giving a sufficient portion of iheir time to their duty, but also to serve as a 
 compensation for the loss of patronage whicli may ensue from any arrangements which 
 Parliament may see fit to make. In the formation of a Board for the management of the 
 affairs of India on the principle above adverted to, your petitioners submit that the preference 
 ought to be given to those candidates who have resided in India for a certain number of 
 years, whether in or out of the service of the East India Company ; and a method may be 
 aas-ily devised by which such candidates may be returned before those who do not possess 
 that advantage ; while, on the one hand, a board so constituted will be more directly under 
 the control of Parliament than two disiinct Boards with diflering powers and divided respon- 
 sibility, it will, on the other, be maintained at a less cost, and the government of the country 
 will be carried on without those dissensions and other consequences which must arise from 
 an opposition of interests. 
 
 7. That ynur Petitioners submit that the election of the members of the Board should 
 not be wholly confided to the proprietors of East India Stoc;k, who are a body comparatively 
 small in number, and therefore easily liable to be brought under improper influence, and 
 without sufficient motives lo seek for the good government of the country. When the 
 proprietors carried on their exclusive trade, they had the right to elect the directors by whom 
 it was to l)e managed. At the present dav they have no concern with India beyond receiving 
 liie dividends which have been guaranteed to them by the British natioji .is the condition of 
 throwing open that trade. It is proper, therefore, that other parties should be associated 
 with them as an elective body, who have a deeper and more direct interest in the welfare 
 of the country and the improvement of the administration. Your petitioners accordingly 
 submit that native and European British subjects, resident in India or in England, who are 
 holders of tiie East India Company's promissory notes of 4 or 5 per cent, to the value of 
 25,000 or 20,000 rupees respectively, sliould be allowed to vote in the election of members 
 of the Board of Management for the aflairs of India, and with that view should be allowed 
 to transfer the same to a local India stock at the rate of interest they now receive, and that, 
 after 12 months' registry bona fide, in their names, they should be allowed to vote, in person 
 or by proxy, under the same rules which govern the votes ot the present pro|)rietors. Your 
 petitioners also submit that the privilege enjoyed under section 26 of the Charter Act by 
 proprietors of East India Stock resident in England to vot- by attorney should be extended 
 to proprietors resident in India, and that these should have power to send their letters of 
 attorney to England within six months of the date fixed for the election of members of the 
 Board for the management of the affairs of India. It should, however, your petitioners 
 think, be made a rule that proprietors of stock of either description who hold office under 
 <jovernmeiit should not be allowed to vote during their incuinl)ency. 
 
 8. The Government of India. — That the constitution of the Government of India is calcu- 
 lated to prevent due attention being u'iven to the internal administration. It is at present 
 employed about the political and military concerns of a vast empire, in legislating for the 
 several Presidencies, and making arrangements for and governing the newly-acquired terri- 
 tories, and in exercising a general supervision over the acts and proceedings of the several 
 subordinaie governors and ether authorities. The Governor-general, or in his absence from 
 theseatof Government, one of the members of Council, has also the immediate charge of the 
 Government of Bengal. Duties so multifarious cannot be satisfactorily performed ; and, 
 as jjolitical and military matters claim ])rimary consideration, all that concerns legislation 
 and the civil administration is treated as matter of very secondary importance. Your 
 petitioners are therefore of opinion that, to ensure ihe well-being and good government of 
 these extensive territories, the functions of the Supreme Government should be limited to 
 the objects which more appropriately belong to it, — namely, the disposal of political and 
 military affliirs, a control over the governors of the several Presidencies, and a veto on the 
 laws prn])ii-ed by a legislative council specially appoinied. The Su])reine Council may 
 consist ot three members, immediately appointed by the board of management from among 
 persons who have been employed in the civil deijartments, or otherwise have iiad local 
 experience; and the Commander-in-Chief may be an extraordinary member thereof, but 
 having a voice only as to military and political questions. 
 
 !>. Relations of the Governor-general with the Council. — That your petitioneis are 
 humbly of opinion that both experience and expediency require a modification of sections 
 49 and 70 of the Charter Act. The former, by outhorisimj; the Governor-general to act 
 on his own responsibility, contrary to the opinions of the Council, practii:ally invests him 
 with absolute power. Such power, if given at all to an individual, should be confined to 
 exinnie cases; and the occasions on winch it may be exercised should be accurately de- 
 fined. The auihority conveyed by the latter section to the Governor-general to go to any 
 ])art of the country without the council in effect nullifies the design of appointing such a 
 body, and at the same time furnishes him with a motive for leaving the seat of government, 
 to the detriment of public business. 
 
 10. Legislative Council. — Thai the union of political or executive power with the legis- 
 lative is not only anomalous in iiself, but pregnant w ith injury lo the interests of the people. 
 It pievmts sufficient attention being paid to the internal administration, so that the most 
 important measure which are pressed on the attemion of the Government either receive a 
 superficial consideration or are postponed for inilefinito periols. On the other hand, the 
 
 interests
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 497 
 
 interests of tlie Government, or considerations connected with ihe Court of Directors or the Appendix, No. 
 
 obj(Cfs of their patronage, are attended to as matters of primary importance, to the neglect 
 
 or prejtidiix' of the inteiests of the people, who have no direct mode of representing their 
 seiitiiDcnts fo their luhrs, and no leason to be satisfied that their representations wdl pro- 
 duce their due eflect. Your petitioners therefore submit that the legislature of India should 
 be a body not only distinct from the persona in whom thepohtical and executive powers are 
 vested, Init also possessing a popular character, so as in some respects to represent the sen- 
 timents ol the people, and to be so looked upon by them. 
 
 11. Laws are now made by llie Executive. — That it is an unprecedented circumstance 
 that, though the n tives of India have for the best part of a century been subjecis of the 
 Crown of'Cieat Britain, they have not to this day been admitted to the smallest share in 
 the admi'.iistration of the affairs of their country, but have continued under a government 
 that unites in itself the legislative and executive functions, and avails iiself of ihose powers 
 to make such laws as may subserve its own financial purposes, often without relereiice to 
 the inteiests and wishes of the people. It is known to your Honourable House that, from 
 the commencemint of that Government, the power of making laws and raising taxes has 
 heen exclusively in the hands of the Governor-general in Council, a|)pointed by the Court 
 of Directors; and tiiat, till within a few years, the people knew nothing of the nitentioi) to 
 pass laws till after they had been passed, and translations sent to the courts in the inierior; 
 and thai though at present it is the practice to publish drafts of intended laws, ytt, as there 
 are no organized bodies to take their provisions into consideration, such publication is in 
 almost all cases wholly insufficient. Moreover, the deliberations of the legislature are 
 carried on with closed doors, and the people have no opportunity either of learning the 
 grounds on which the laws are enacted, or of being heard by counsel, when desirous of 
 submitting their remonstrances. 
 
 12. No attention paid to Remonstrances. — That not only are laws enacted without refer- 
 ence to the people, but tliey are enforced against the strongest complaints and remon- 
 strances. Thus, in violation of the pledge given by the Regulation XIX. of 1703, " that 
 the claims of the public (meaning the Government) on their lands, provided they register 
 the grants as required, shall be tried in the courts of judicature, that no such exempted 
 lands may be adjudged to the payment of revenue until the titles of the proprietor shall 
 have bteii adjudged invalid by a final judicial decree,"' a new species of court was created 
 by the Regulation III. of 1828, which was presided over by collectors of revenue dfficers 
 who were in every respect unqualified for the judicial office, but whose ordeis, when con- 
 firmed by one or iriore of the special commissioners, another special tribune at the same 
 time erected, where declared to be final, contrary to the meaning and intent of the 21st 
 section of 21 Geo. III. chapter 70. Bui, though several petitions were at the time pre- 
 sented to the Government irom several parts of the country, complaining of the innovation 
 as well as of the hardship of the resumption proceedings, which were carried on under the 
 orders of the Government, no attention was paid to them, nor was any explanation vouch- 
 safed as to ihe grounds of the law or the justice of the proceedings. From the Ajipendix 
 to the Report from the Select Committee of your Honourable House, on the affairs of the 
 East India Ciiiipany, printed in 1832, your petitioners find that the Government, in 
 reporting on the subject on the 23rd February 1830, to the Court of Directors, "to whom 
 alone," as they state, " they telt it incumbent on them fully to explain the grounds of their 
 proceedings," remaiked, "that to object to the inquiry and award of the collecior on the 
 ground that he is a Government officer, and must therefore be a partial judge, was a mere 
 prejudice." The Court of Directors, in their reply of the 28th September 1831, your 
 petitioners find, informed the Government that, after full consideration, they had " come 
 10 the conclusion that collectors should not be the judges in resumption questions ;" but 
 they gave no orders to rescind the objectionable law. From these facts, which are 
 especially alluded to because the proceedings of the authorities therein have been pub- 
 lished, it will be apparent to _\our Honourable House, that even the ()0wer given to the 
 Court of Directois to disallow laws passed by the Government, is inefficacious even as 
 regards such laws as are contrary to all sound rules of policy. 
 
 13. That, as a further example of the inattention of the Government to remonstrances, 
 even when violating (to use the terms of the Charter Act of 1813) " the principles of the 
 British Government on which, the natives of India have hitlierto relied for the fiec exercise 
 of their religion," your petitioners refer to tlie Act XXI. of I80O, which, under the guise 
 of extending the principle of section !>, Regulation VII. of 1832 of the Bengal code to 
 the other presidencies, the provisions of which had never come into operation, alters the 
 rules of inheritance of the people of this country, which are well known to he based upon 
 their religious tenets, by allowing persons excluded fixmi caste, whether on account ot 
 immoral or infamous conduct or of change of religion, to inherit contrary to the express 
 rules of the Hindoo law. On learning the intentions of the Government many of the 
 people of Bengal and Madras muted to remonstrate against it, on the ground of the 
 guarantee given them that their laws and cusioms should be respected, and of its 
 being the tendency if not the design of the intended law to facilitate proselytisin to 
 oiher religions. But these remonstrances weie not even noticed by the Government, 
 although sound policy and the positive pledges given to the people required that no 
 alteration sliould be made in tne rules of inheritance without their consent, especially when 
 it could not be asset ted that any public inconvenience had attended the operation of those 
 rules. 
 
 0.10. 3 R 4 l-l- Plan
 
 498 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 No. 7. 14. Plan of a Legislative Cimncil. — That, tor these ;iiui other reasons too numeious to 
 be detailed, your petitioners consider tlie power of niakinii laws and raising taxes conferred 
 exclusively on tlie Governor-general in Council to be impolitic as well as nnjust to the native 
 subjects of the British Crown, even with the reservation of the power of disallowing laws 
 made by them which has been vesied by the Chaiier Act in the Coun of Director-:. Hence 
 they are desirous that the Icgisbituie of British India be placed on the footing of those 
 enjoyed by most of the colonies of Her Majesty, and that legislation be carried on with 
 open duors, so that the people may have fidl knowledge of the proceeding-, and an assurance 
 that their wants and interests wdl not fail to be cared for. Tliey accordingly submit for 
 the consideration of your Honourable House the propriety of constituting a Legislative 
 Council at C.dci'.itii, composed of seven members, three selected from among the most 
 respectable and qualified native inh;d)itants of each Presidency, to represent the natives 
 thereof; one member appointed by the governor of each Piesidency tvom among the senior 
 civil orticers on its establishment, to represent the interests of the Government ; and one 
 member ;ippoinled by the Crown, in the same manner as the iburlh ordinary member of 
 Council is now appointed, vrho shall be a man of legal education, and preside over the 
 Council. The members of the Council should continue in ofHce for five years, during which 
 time they should bold no other office under Government. To ensure their acting inde- 
 pendently of the influence f)f the Government, they should not be removcable even by the 
 Crown, as, under section 74 of the Charter Act, the servants ol' the Company are removable 
 at will by the Crown ; but any member who may be accused of misconduct may be liable 
 to prosecution in the Criminal Court, The members shall receive, dining their continuance 
 in office, honorary distinctions, such as are given to members of legislative bodies in Great 
 Britain and the Colonies, besides a reasonable salaiy. Until the people are considered 
 qualified to exercise the right of electing ilieir own delegates to the Legislative Council, the 
 native members may be nominaied by the Govei noi-general in communication with the 
 governors of ihe several Presi<lencies ; but certain rules may at the same time be framed, 
 by which the pi-ople of any pnsidency or piovince may have the power of objecting, on 
 specified orounds, to any appointment so made, for wliieli purpose the appointments shouhl 
 be notified in the English and vernacular gazettes of the Presidencies. The Law Commission,, 
 which was established by sections o3, 54, and 65, of the Charter Act, should be abolished, 
 as the purposes for which it was appointed will be fulfilled by a Legislative Council formed on 
 the comprehensive basis herein suggested. 
 
 15. Povers of the Legislative Council find the Supreme Coiiucil. — That in the event of 
 the fotmaiion of a Legislative Council, distinct from and independent of the executive, being 
 ap])roved ol by your Honourable House, your petitioners submit that that body should have 
 the same powers, in regard to the proposing, making, and cancelling of laws as are now 
 Tested ill the Governor-general and the four ordinal y members of Council, but that the laws 
 framed by them should be submitted to ihe Supreme Government for confirmation. The 
 Governor-general in Council and the Governors of the Presidencies, as well as any portion 
 of the people by petition, should have the power of [iroposing drafts of laws to the Legis- 
 lative Conned, in the manner and on the conditions prescribed with respect to governors by 
 section GO of the Charter Act ; that is to say, that the authorities named may propose drafts 
 or projects ot laws, with iheir reasons for projjosing the same, and that the Legislative 
 Council shall take the same and such reasons into consideration, and communicate their 
 resolutions thirton 10 the authorities by whom the same shall have been pro|)osed. The 
 laws which may be framed by the Le;:islativc Council should be submitted to the Supreme 
 Counc il, with all the documents on wbic ii they may be l)ased, or which may elucidate their 
 object and tendency, and should receive the early attention of that Council; and, as all the 
 preliminarv enquiries will have been made by the Legislative Council, and great weight will 
 be due to their opinions as repr( seniing the interests of the whole c .inmunity, il will not 
 be improper to requii-e that the Govi rnor-gcneral in Council should communicate his sen- 
 timents thereon, within three months from the time they are submitted to him ; or that on 
 the lapse of that period Ins concurrence should be im| lied, except in the case of his pi'e- 
 viously informing the Legislative Council of his inability to come to a conclusion within that 
 period. Wlieiiever the laws so framed and subinitled are disallowed by the Governor- 
 general in Council the grounds of disallowance are to be communicated to the Legislative 
 Council, and tb.at body are to have libeitv to muve the Imperial Parliament to pass the laws 
 in question. 
 
 16. Control of Parliumenl . — That the power conferred on the Court of Directors by 
 section 44 of the Charter Act, to rescind any laws passed by the pre>eni Legislative Council, 
 is incon-isteni with the independence and dignity o( a legislative body. Your petitioners 
 submit ihiit sui II power slumld in any case be taken a\vav,and that the laws framed by the 
 Legislative C< uiu il and approved bv the Supi-eme Council, on the plan above suggested, 
 should not be liable to repeal or alteration save by the paramount authority of Parliament. 
 But if any Bill be brought in Parliament to re jieal any Act of the legislature of India, or 
 make a new law on any point aflf'ecting the iiihabnants of India, twelve months' notice 
 thereof should \h: niven, to allow the Legislative Council, or any portion of the |)eople, to 
 take mea-ures for bcimx heard bv counsel at the bar of both Houses on the subject of the 
 Bill. ^ ^ 
 
 17. DccUiration of Non-inlirferencc with lie/igion of the Natives. — That your petitioners 
 take liiis op|.()rtimity to submit to the c nsider iiion of voui' Honourable House the pro- 
 priety of embodying in the Act which maybe passed for the regulation of the aHairs of 
 
 India
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON. INDIAN TERRITORIES. 499 
 
 India a dechiration that Iho tisc of llipir rdisiious laws and institutions is Guaranteed to the Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 natives, and lliat iif) laws subversive tlieiTof shall at any lime be passed liy the IocmI leo-is- 
 
 Jaime or the Iinptriaj Parliament, unless they be in consonance! with the LCencrd fcclinjrs 
 of ihe naiiv(s themselves. Your petitioners have had reason hitherto to be sa isfied as to 
 the consideration entertained by Parliament towards the reliizion of the natives, an instance 
 of which IS to he found in the instruction contained in the UStli section of the Ciuirter Act, 
 to provide with all convenient speed for the protection of the natives of the territories 
 thrown open to Europveans " from insult and outrage in ilieir persons, relictions or o|)inions." 
 But so far from that instruction biing complied with, the local lesislauire have, as already 
 set hiith, endeavoured to set aside laws founded on the sacred books, both of Hindoos and 
 Maliomeflaiis, aiul turned a deaf car to the remonstrances which have been offered by larjj^e 
 iioditsof the Cornier religious persuasion. Your pctiiioiKis are aware that a declaration 
 made in the present day will not hinder a subsequent ParlKimenf, if so minded, from passinii 
 a law crntiary thereto; but they are also aware (hat when the rights of the people <d' 
 England have been endangered, declaratory statutes (of which the petition of right is a 
 signal instance) have over an! over been had recourse to, and have been found to be highly 
 valuable for the assertion and maintenance ot those rights. 
 
 ] 8. T.ocal Governors. — That the appointment of the Governor-general to he also Governor 
 of Bengal, and in his ab^ence a memtier of Council to be Deputy-governor thereof, is very 
 disadvantageous to tlie pu!)lic interests. The Governoi -general being usually a person 
 without any Indian experience, and the Deputy-governor having in more than one instmce 
 \w(^\\ a military oHicer without experience in civil business and the peculiar revenue and 
 judic iai systeuis of the country, and having no councillors to supply their deficiencies as to 
 local matteis, liave necessarily been dependent to a certain extent upon the secretaries. 
 On theothtr hand the administration of the government of Agra has in more than one 
 instance been conducted in a satisfactory manner, in consequence to a certain extent of 
 their Indian exptricnce, by governors without a council; while the affairs of the Presiden- 
 cii s of Madias and Bombay, under governors who generally ccne to their governments 
 unacquainted with the st-ae of the country and the institutions of the people, and are com- 
 pelled to rely on the aid of highly-paid coimcillors, are not more satisfactorily coiidui ted 
 than those of Agra. Your petitioners, with reference to these facts, submit that the public 
 service will be best pr. moted by providing that each Presidency should be under the 
 management of a separate governor, but without councillors; that neither the Governor- 
 general, nor any member of the Supreme Council, should in any way partici|iate in the 
 government of any Presidency, or any other portion of territory, and that the governors 
 should be selected by the Board of Management from among the ablest civil officers of 
 their Presidencies to which ihey are appointed, or other persons of suitable qualifications 
 and local cxpeiience, due care being taken to supply vacancies by making provisional 
 appointments. Your petitioners also submit that to such government there shoidd be a 
 secretary, qualified by his knowledge and ex|jerience in the revenue and judicial depart- 
 ments to give useful advice to the Governor, whom it should be the duty of the Governor 
 to consult, and who should be requiied to offer his opinion in writing to the Governor in 
 all matters; that in all important cases in which the Governor may disregard the opinion 
 of the secretary, both of them should record their opinions for the eventual consideration 
 of the Governor-general in Council or the Board of Management; and at that, under the 
 secretary, there should be a sufficient number of deputies in each department. 
 
 19. Appeals from the Governors. — That by sections 65 and 63 of the Charter, the several 
 governments have been placed in dependency on and subjection to the control of the 
 Governor-sieneral in Council ; but your petiiioners submit that to render that suboidination 
 of practical benefit, an appeal to the Supreme Government from the orders of the Gov ernors 
 should he allowed under certain limitations. On the other hand, to allow public officers 
 to perform their duties with confidence, it should he a rule that no officer diicctly appninted 
 by Government shall be removable from office except after a regular trial before a com- 
 petent court for official delinquency. On the same ground your petitioners are humbly of 
 opinion that the power vested in the Court of Directois by section 75 of the Chatter Act, 
 to dismiss their officers and servants at pleasure, should not be maintained as regards public 
 servants in India holding civil offices by the appointment of the local governments. The 
 power of removing a juiblic officer ought to be exercised only on public grciunds. 'I'here- 
 fore officers of the several governments in India should not be removable by the Board 
 for the management of the affairs of India, except upon grounds recoided by ihein previ- 
 ously 10 removal, and every servant so removed shoidd have the right of appeal to the 
 Privy Council. 
 
 20. Economy in the Public Service. — That all improvcmtnts in the administration, how- 
 ever urgently called for, are now postponed on the ground of insufficiency of resources. It 
 is also generally admitted by all persons qualified to judge of the subject, that the higher 
 offices in India are too highly paid, but the lower ones very inadequately. Your petitioners 
 submit therefore, without raising any question as to the method in which the revenues of 
 the jountry are applied, although such question is not unworthy the attention of your 
 Hoiumrable House, that tbeie should be a reduction of the salaries of the higher oflices, 
 and that (he saving thereby effected should, in part, be applied to the increase of the allow- 
 ances of the lower, which a'e confessedly inadequate to their duties and responsibilities, 
 and 111 part to those improvements which the condition of the country has lony, demanded 
 
 o.io. 3 S at
 
 500 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 7, at the liands of its rulers. The salaric'^ of the Governor-general, the members of Council, 
 
 the local governors, and the principal covenanted officers, are on an exorbitnnt scale, and 
 
 susceptible of ureat reduction without impairing the efficiency of the service. The Governor- 
 general, in addUion to his numificent salary, has all his travelling expenses, to an enormous 
 amount, paid out of the public treasury, without control or responsibility. Such a state of 
 thino-s may fairly he thouiiht 10 operate as an inducement to the individual holding the 
 office to leave the seat of Government without sufficient reason. It seems, therefore, 
 expedient that the Governor-general should not have liis travellmi; expenses paid out of the 
 treasury without limit or restriciion, but according to fixed rules, and that such allowance 
 should be sranted only when it may appear from a resolution of the members of Coimcil 
 that his presence is required by the exigencies of the State, at a distance from the seat of 
 Government. Much public treasure is also expended, without any corresponding advan- 
 tao-e, in paying extravagant salaries to residents in the courts of the princes of India, and 
 other politicaTofficers,"and to a large stafl' of assistants, and in granting large allowances 
 to those officers for keeping a table and other useless purposes. As the inhabitants of the 
 country who contribute towards the revenue which is thus lavishly expended derive no 
 benefit therefrom, it is just and proper that the opportunity should be taken to introduce 
 an unsparing economy in these and other branches of the public services, and to apply the 
 proceeds to those puljlic works which may promote free intercourse between distant places 
 and facilitate the transport of merchandize to the farthest extremities of the British 
 dominions. 
 
 21. The Civil Service. — That section 103 of the Charter Act declares it to be " expedient 
 to provide for the due qualification of persons to be employed in the civil service of the 
 Company;" but the only provision which it makes for fulfilling the purpose consists in 
 regulating the number of candidates to be admitted into Haileybuiy College, aiid the 
 number of students of the college who, after passing " an examination in the studies pro- 
 secuted in the said college," shall be " nominated to supply the vacancies in the civil 
 establishments in India." No provision was made for giving public employments to any 
 other description of persons, however qualified by their ability and local experience, and 
 from the want of it the people were left to understand that the declaration in section 87 of 
 the Charter Act was merely nominal, and that the natives of the sod who under former 
 Governments were without distinction admitted to the highest posts, were ineligible for 
 public office under tiie British rule. It is, however, acknowledged by most persons in India 
 v\ho are competent to judge, and not biassed by intei-ested motives, that the pi'esent mode 
 of filling the most important of public offices is prejudicial to the interests of good govern- 
 ment, and incapable of improvement except by a radical change in the system. The civil 
 servants selected by the Directors are sent out to this country before their capacity can be 
 ascertained; the education they receive in England is insufficient to fit them for the various 
 offices they are destined to fill; they are posted to important offices at an extremely early 
 age, without the certainty, without even a reasonable probability, of their possessing the 
 requisite qualifications; they are removed from one office to another of a dissimilar kind, 
 and from one province to another, different in respect to language and people, 'vithout 
 being afforded opportunity to acquire sufficient experience; the ceitaiuiy that they ar-e to 
 be provided for and even promoted by seniority or honre influence, renders some of them 
 indisposed to qualify themselves by diligent study of the laws and regulations, and the 
 customs and manners of the natives; their inexperience and olHcial inaptitude lead many 
 to depend, to a late period of their public career, on their ill-paid ministerial officers; their 
 peculiar advantages and connexion with each other by birth or marriages, lead them 
 frequently to I'cgard themselves as a distinct and privileged class, and to treat the other 
 classes of the community with arrogance and harshness, and supjiort each other's err-ors 
 and defaults; the charges |)referred against them for corruption or official misconduct are 
 not investigated in a public manner, or by a tribunal In whose impartiality the public have 
 confidence, but, on the contrary, the general irn|)rcssion is, that tire preferring of cliarges is 
 as much as possible discouraged; they are not liable to personal prosecution in the Com- 
 pany's courts for acts of injustice and oppression, and the Government have endeavoured 
 to shield thenr from the consequences of prosecutions iir Her Majesty's courts, by declaring, 
 in the terms of Act XVI H. of 18.50, that they are rrot to be held lespousible if they believed 
 themselves to have acted in their official capacity. The punishment inflicted on iliem by 
 the Government for the grossest iiregularities and faults are almost nominal, and in most 
 cases officers removed from one dej)artmcnt, i;i consequence of misconduct, arc merely 
 transferred to another. Thei'c arc, of course, many bright exceptions anrong the civil 
 servants of the Company to the general desciiption her-e given. Many of them would do 
 honour to any service both in point of ability and of conscientious dischar-ge of duty. But 
 your petitioners ai'c speaking of the system which admits of ihc evils they are pointing out. 
 Your petitioners are therefore of opinion that the College of llailiiybury, which is main- 
 tained for the education of civil servants, should be broken up, iis trn institution in no respect 
 lulfilling the objtcts for which it was est.djlijlud, or, if maintained, that it should be made 
 ielf-supporting ; that if any portion of the pationage to officer's in India is, for any reasons 
 wirich may appear suflicicnt to your Honourable House, to be continued in the future 
 Board lor tiie management of the affairs of India, it sliould be render'cd conditional on the 
 selection of persons of miqueslionable fitness and capacity ; tlitrt the rest of the offices \n 
 the country should be thrown open to the iiirlivcs on thr same condition, and that proino- 
 lions should be muile by the local governments without respect to distinctions of cove- 
 I iruiitcd
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 501 
 
 iranted or uncnveimnted, European or native, but solely with reference to the talents and Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 qualifications of (lie parlies, and thus efK^ctii.illy carry into effect the iuleiuioiis of i'arhu- 
 
 nient expressed in the U7tii section of the Cliarter Act. 
 
 22. That your petitioners submit that not more than a moictv of the patronage slioukl be 
 vested in the Board for the manugemeni of tiie affairs of India, exclusive of appointments 
 of Governor-generals, Governors of Presidencies, Members of the Supreme Council, and 
 military and naval officers; and that the other moiety should be assi<riied to the governors 
 of the several Presidencies, for the benefit, with some exceptions, of the natives, without 
 reference to descent or creed. It should lie provided, however, that instead of selecting 
 youths, whose character and abilities are not sutbcieiitly developed, and who are afterwards 
 to enter college to prosecute studies which are deemed necessary to qualify tliem for office, 
 the Board of Management and the Governors shall be at liberty to select ihose persons who 
 have obtained a suitable education at their own expense, at any establishment which they 
 may prefer, and who have given evidence of their proficiency, by undergoing such examina- 
 tion as it may be deteriiimed to prescribe. Bv thus throwing open public offices to public 
 competition by British youths in the United Kingdom, and hy native youths in India, the 
 expense of educating young men for public offices will be avoided ; the temptation which 
 now exists to confer patronage on grounds of family connections, friendship, or obligations, 
 will betaken away, and suitable persons will be chosen for offices being provided tor men. 
 Moreover, instead of providing for one examination as to fitness for admission into college, 
 and another as to qualifications acquired there, which examinations arc practically found to 
 be (as it is generally supposed, by reason of private interests) more nominal than useful, it 
 will be necessary to have one set of examineis in England and one in India, and the test 
 of qualification may be made as rigid as can be desired. Nor can it be alleged that many 
 educational establishments will not be found in England and India adapted to qualify young 
 men for public service, by imparting to them eiiucation of the requisite standard ; a fact 
 which itself demonstratt 8 the inexpediency of maintaining, at a great expense, the college 
 of Haileybury. Such a system of public competition for admission into the civil establish- 
 ments of India being establishtd, the Board of Management may select, out of the candi- 
 dates who pass a public examination in England, the number of persons they have the 
 privilege ol noniinaiing, and such persons should, on passing an examination in India in 
 the vernacular languages, be eligible to the higher offices, with reference to their age, 
 experience, and talents, in common with those who have hitherto been sent out under 
 covenants. In the same manner the several governors should have the right to select, out 
 of the natives who are declared eligible after examination in India, the number they are 
 entitled to appoint. The selection of the governors should be confined, except in special 
 cases, to the natives ; because, if a latitude is given, the result will b.-, that the preference 
 will, for the most part, be given on other considerations than merit, and the selection of 
 natives will form merely an exception to the general rule. To provide for special cases, the 
 Governors may be authorized whenever they see need to select for the higher offices others 
 than natives, after they have undergone tlie examination pn scribed ; and whenever such 
 special appointments are male, it should rest with the Board of Management to confirm 
 them or not, according as they are satisfied as to the validity of the grounds recorded by 
 the Governors for departing fiom the general rule. It should, however, be distinctly pro- 
 vided, that the salaries of Europeans and natives who are appointed after passing the 
 prescribed examination should be equal, and the two classes should be in every respect on 
 a footing of equality. It may be advanced that the natives, who are in their own country, 
 do not rt quire to be paid so highly as those who are sent out from the United Kingdom ; 
 and indeed this is the principle acted upon by the local governments, in pursuance, no 
 doubt, of the instructions laid down for their guidance. But a proposal to lower or raise 
 the salary of an offic?, according as it is to be enjoyed by a person from the north or the 
 south of Great Britain, would justly be considered both absurd and invidious, and the 
 adoption of it would be especially impolitic in India, where it could not but have the effect 
 of perpetualing distinctions between Europeans and natives, and introducing all the inju- 
 rious consequences incident to distinctions of colour and creed. 
 
 23. That, it being essential to the good government of the country, as already set forth, 
 that full effect should be given 10 the provision of Section 87 of the Charter, that all offices 
 shall be open to all persons, without distinction of caste, colour, or creed, your petitioners 
 submit that the distinctions of covenanted and uncovenanted should at once be abolished 
 so far as may be consistent with the present arrangements, and with the rights which may 
 be considered to belong to those who have been sent to India nnder covenants. The enact- 
 ment of tlie rule just cited is a proof that the civil servants now on the establishment cannot 
 claim the right to be appointed or promoted to particular offices, and that, without injury 
 to their rights, any persons not of that service may be appointed to any oftiees for which 
 they may be qualified. And your petitioners desire merely this, that appointments and 
 promotions should be dependent strictly on qualification and merit ; so that, on an office 
 being vacant such peison only should be appointed to it as may he judged best deserving, 
 whether he be a member of the civil service, or a person who has been selected after 
 (xamination in England or India, or a person who has quahfied himself by serving in any 
 subordinate capacity. The same end may beefl'ecied by placing civil servants and other 
 servants, as far as piacticable, under the same inks in regard to their tenure of office and 
 privileges, such as leave of absence and so forth. The distinctions at present existing on 
 these points are as marked as they are unjust, such as that the coveuanted servant cannot 
 0.10. 3 s 2 be
 
 ^02 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 ppenJix, No. 7. bg disni ssecJ uiihout trial by a commisvion, wliile the uncovenanteci may be removed vviihont 
 
 any jiroved miscondiict, on the mere report or the pleasure of his superior officer; and 
 
 that the covenanted officer should be allowed opportunity t > recruit liis health with small 
 loss (jf silarv, but the uncovenanted, in most ca~es, only on tlie condition of giviny; up his 
 post- I'riun the abolition of such distinctions your petitioners expect the most important 
 iaenefits 10 In lia, n^it only as the means ot imparting" a liealthy tone to all classes of public 
 officers, but as liie germ of freedom and independence among all ranks of the people. 
 Keeping these circumstances in view, your petitioners have entered into details which they 
 wnuld not otiierwise have obtruded on the attention of your Honourable House; and with 
 reference thtreto they would add, that persons who p.iss a successful examination in this 
 country, but f nl to be selected by tiie Government for the higher posts, within three years 
 from the date of examiiiaiinn, should undergo a second examination to become again eligible 
 for the hi<»lier posts, but they may be furnished with diplomas which shall entitle them to a 
 preference over other untiied candidiites, in obtaining any inferior situations wliich they 
 may apply for; thus provision will be made for filling superior as well as inferior offices, 
 with duly qualified persons, who shall have constantly before them motives for further im- 
 ])rovement in the prospect held out to all, without exception, of rising to the very higliest 
 dignities. 
 
 24. Tliat the Company's courts are not so constituted as to render substantial justice to 
 the natives, or afford them a just confidence as to security of life and property. It i? a 
 cause of further dissati^faction that there should be one court especially for the Europeans, 
 of which the judiics are selected from among persons who have given proof of their legal 
 fitness, and the advocates are peisons who have undergone a course of legal training, and 
 another court for the natives generally, of which the judges have no legal knowledge or 
 experience befoie tiieir appoiiitiiieni, and the pleaders are very insufficiently qualified for 
 their important duties. That dis-atis(action is aggravated by tlie facts that a special excep- 
 ti(jn is made by Section 46 of the Chatter Act ag linst giaiiting to any of tlie Co:iipany's 
 courts the pow' r of life and death over British subjects, while the lives of natives are freely 
 plated at the disposal of courts clearly implied to be ill-constituted ; that, while owing t> 
 the numerous reforms required in the laws and forms of judicial procedure in this country, 
 the objections of Biitish subjects to the Compaiiv's courts and (Company's judges have 
 been allowed, those courts and judges should be dtenied quite good enough for them ; and 
 tiiat, out of the large revenues which are yielded by the proceeds of their labour, a sufficient 
 sum should not be appropriated towards rendering the courts really c.ipalde of affording 
 them justice. Witliout desiring that British subjects siiould, by being subject to the local 
 courts, be deprived of the benefit of good laws, administered by qualified judges and juries 
 of their countrymen, your petitioneis humbly conceive that there should be equal laws and 
 good courts for all classes of Her Majesty's subjects, without exception, and not one set 
 of laws and couits for British subjects, and another set of laws and courts for natives. Tiie 
 a[>pointment of a law commission, under the 53d Section of the Charter Act, with the view 
 that a general system of judicial establishments and police, to which all persons wiiatsoever, 
 as well Europeans as natives, may be subject, should be established in these territories at an 
 early period, has been wholly inefficacious, and the commission has, consequently, been for 
 many years in abeyiiiice. The insiructioiis contain' d in the82d and four following Sections 
 of the Charter Act, to provide against any mischiefs or d;ingers that may arise from the 
 free admission of Europeans into the territories administeietl by the Company, have also 
 been inoperative; for, alilioughby an Act of the local Legislature (IV. of 1837) it is declared 
 that Europeans shall he subject 10 the laws under which natives acquire and hold properly 
 in laud, ii has been found that the penalties to whicli the latter are subject do not apply 
 10 the former, in consequi nee of their exemption Iroui the criminal lat' of the coiinirv ; 
 so, iliat while a native proprietor of land is punished by the magistrate, his European co- 
 sharer in the same estate cannot be visited with any punishment. 
 
 23. That the civil courts of the country are composed of two classes, namely, those to 
 which natives are usually appointed as judges, and tliose to which European civil servants 
 are exclusively appointed. The highest grade of native judges, styled Principal Sudder 
 Ameens, receive salaries (400 rupees per month, and in special cases (100) not gieater than 
 are commonly given to clerks in public an I private offices, and without any prospect of 
 prnniotion to a higher office, but are vested with pouer to try all civil suits for piop -rty of 
 any amount, and also to hear appeals from the decisions of the lower courts. The civil 
 servant is api)uiiitcd on a .salary of at least 2,000 rupees a month, with a jnospect of rising 
 to the highest posts, and is expected almost exclusively to decide those appeals wdiicli 
 involve a value not exceeding 3,000 rupees : being selected to be tiie judge of an appellate 
 court without having acquired any experience of judicial business, or any knowledge of 
 the forms of the lower courts, his decisions, whether pass'd under the dictation of the 
 ministerial officers, or in accordance with his own notions, are devoid of weight. But 
 while the decisions of cxpt rieneed native judg<s are liable to be reversed by a single 
 European jui'ge, without any judici.d experience, the decisions of the same judi;es regard- 
 ing property of a higher value than that above-meiitioneil, are appealable to the Sudder 
 Dewanny Adawlul, and cannot be reversed without the concuirent opinions of two judiics 
 of thill couit. The d< cisions of that court, as exhibited in their printed reports, show that 
 from 1845 to 1851, out of 2,607 apjieals heaid from the decisions of covenanted and unco- 
 vdiaiited judges, the dtci-ions of the covenanted judges were confirmed in 213 instances, 
 ii versed in 1C7, and remained (or further investigation in 083; while tlio-e of the unco- 
 
 vtnaiiled
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. ,503 
 
 YRiiantcd judges were confirmed in ftoO instiincos, reversed in 238, and remandeil in 6(;7 Appondii, No. 7. 
 
 iiistciiices; Ifoin which your Honourable House will |)erceive tii;it, on tlie whole, t'le decisions 
 
 of tlu- uncovenantt'd were more satisliictiiry lothe Sudder Court ilian those of ihc (-oven in ted ; 
 and that noth:ii« can be more anomalous iliau the position in rank and emolument wlneli 
 the two classes occupy. 
 
 2G. That the criminal courts of the Company are those of the magistrates and tlic se.s- 
 sions judges. The former act in the double c.ijiacity of superintendents of policp, and 
 judges of cases not liable to a sentence exceeding three years' imprisonjucnt. In the 
 lornier capacity they have been acknowledged by their superiors to have a strong leaning 
 towards the conviction of those who are brought before them. In the latter, they are 
 authorised in ceitain cases even to adjudge imprisonint nt and fine without appeal ; and in 
 ge.ieral tlu y exercise, according to the admissions of high authoiities, powtrs which are 
 not conmiitted to intigistrates in any civilised country, and tor which they are disqualified 
 by their youth and inexperience. Commitments made by ihem are tried by the sessions 
 jud^e, with the aid of assessors, composed at his option of a Mahomedaii law officer or two 
 or more naives. The opinion of the law oflncer cannot beset aside, except by the Nizimut 
 Adawlut; but when other assessors are employed, the decision rests exclusively with die 
 session judge. Cases involving capital punishment, and some others, are referred to ihe 
 Nizansut Adawlut, and ap|)cals from tlie sentfuces passed by the session judijjes are also 
 Jitard by that court. It will be evident to your Honourable House, that «hen tlie trials 
 have been held in the fiist instance before an officer not sufficiently ciualified for tlie duties 
 of his high office, without any of the securities to be found in the verdict of a jury, or even 
 the presf nee of advocates qualified to act as a check on the judge, the transfer of the 
 lerord of tiial to a distant court, the judge~ of whch, for the most part, hear the records, 
 which are in a foreign language, read to them either in their private drtellrngs, or in eoiut, 
 cannot in any manner supply, but must rather increase tlie defects of the original trial. 
 Nor can the people of this country understand, when every Britain is entitled to be tried 
 by a jury of his peers, why they should not enjoy the same privilege. 
 
 27. Union of Supreme and Sudder Court. — That, for these and other reasons, your 
 petitioners are desirous that bolli the civil anil criminal courts of the country should be le- 
 modelled, and that, instead of the numerous complicated and defective systems, there should 
 be courts guided by uniform rules of procedure, presided over by judges qualified by educa- 
 tion and legal abilities, and having full authority over all classes of persons wiihoui excep- 
 tion. To this end your peiiiioners submit that the Sudder Court and the Supreme (^jurt 
 should be amalgamated as soon as possible; and that couris shou'd be firmed on the 
 same principle for every district, having the same rules of procedure, witli jurisdiction over 
 all classes of the inhabitants, both at the Presidency towns and in the country. The local 
 laws should be the euide of the new courts, except as to questions of rnarriaiie, iuheritaiue, 
 and so foith, in regard to which the laws of the parties should be followed as heretofore. 
 The courts formed on the principal alluded to at the Piesilency towns should be courts for 
 tlie hiaring of appeals from the lower courts, and fir comrolli ig the proceedings <>f those 
 courts. In the same towns civil courts of first instance should be eitabli>hed under single 
 judges, v\hich should al>o be courts of sessions, in which trials should be held with the aid 
 of juries. At Agra, where, though the seat of the new Presidency, there is no Queen's 
 court, a chief court should be established, similar to the new couris at the Presidency towns, 
 cons'sting of a number of judges of the Sudder and one judge on the part of the Crown. 
 In framing ruU's for it, the technicalities of the English law should be avoided. Its pro- 
 ceedings should, as far as practicable, be in the vernacular language. As the wants of the 
 judges of the Sudder Court at Calcutta are supplied by translators, who prepare English 
 translations of the vern cular pleadings, so additional translators may be employed 10 
 facilitate a knowledge of such pleadings by the judges of the new court, so as to relieve 
 suitors from ihe t xpense of preparing pleadings in English, until, in cour-e of time, judges 
 can be found who are familiarly acquainted with the languages of the people. Oral 
 pleadings may be carried on in English or the vernacular, according as the pleaders em- 
 ployed are conversant with either language, following herein the rule which has been intro- 
 duced since the admission of barristers to plead before the Sudder Court. 
 
 28. Courts ill the ///^mor.-^Tbat, for the districts in each Presidency, it is expedient to 
 remodel the civil and criminal courts to promote their efficiency, and render them capable 
 of aflbrding justice to all classes. For the present, and with a view not to entail niucli 
 expense at the ouiset, three grades of judges and courts may be established, having both 
 civil and ciiminal jurisdiction, Moonsid^s, Prneipal Sudder Ameens, and Judges. The 
 moonsifl's should have jur sdiction in civil suits, but extended fioin the pre-ent limit of 300 
 to 1,000 rupees, and, on the criminal side, they should be empowered to try misdemeanors 
 and petty felonies, and to commit to the sessions cases beyond their competency to try. 
 Their salaries should be raised so as to be adequate to their duties. They should Ikivl-, 
 according to extent of local jurisdiction, assistants selected from diplouia holders, on a sufti- 
 fient salary, including travelling charges, who should be employed in the preparation of 
 cases, and in holding'local inquines in the place of ameens, officers who are now employed 
 in s-uch duties. The commissi, n which is paid to these may Ije carried to the credit of 
 Government. The assistants will thus qualify themselves for judicial duties, and shou'd 
 Le considered entitled to promotion after three years' service in the lower capacity. The 
 principal sudder ameens should have juiisdiclion, as at present, in all original su.ts for an 
 amount exceeding 1,000 rupees. The salary of the office should be made proportionate to 
 
 0.10. 3 s 3 its
 
 504 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 /ipcniiix, No. 7. its importance, and the desig,nation altered to that of junior judge. The judge should have 
 
 jurisdiction as to original suits; but in trying appeals from the moonsift's decisions, he 
 
 stiould sit with the junior judge ; but, in case of difference, have the casting voice. 
 U hen the two functionaries are unanimous in deciding an appeal, both as to the law and 
 the lacti--, the special appeal to the superior court may be limited to points of law ; but 
 when they differ as to facts, the special appeal may be both as to the law and the facts. 
 Ill such civil suits as affect the person or cliaracter, as for libel, assault, and so forth, either 
 party may call for a jury. The verdict of the jury may, as suggested by the commis- 
 sioners on the amendment of the law, be given according to the opinion of th;ee-fourths 
 , of ihe number, il they cannot come to an unanimous conclusion before six hours, and 
 
 such verdict should be binding on the judge. With reference to the relative powers of the 
 iudt;e and junior judge, and the frequent chance of the decision of the latter, owing to his 
 superior judicial experience being better than that of the less experienced officer set over 
 liim, by the foiiune of belonging to a piivileged class, it is inexpedient that the de- 
 ci>ions of the one should be appealable to the othei-. The decisions uf the judge and 
 the junior judge at their sepai-ate sittings should therefore be direcily appealable to tiie 
 superior court at the Presidency. This arrangement will obviate the anomaly of one appeal 
 being decided by a single judge, and another by three judges, for no other reason than 
 thatin the former the value of the subject of dispute may amount to 5,000 rupees, and in 
 the latter to one rupee more. It will also diminish the luimber of special appeals which 
 are now preferred, and which the Sudder Court are under the necessity of discouraging, 
 to avoid being swamped by them; it being obvious that, however cogent the reasons 
 which induce the Government to place an officer who is wholly without judicial expe- 
 rience over one who has grown grey in the judicial office, tliey cannot prevent the 
 people from beina; dissatisfied with the decisi(m of the youthful superior, when it is 
 counter to that of his older subordinate. For the same reasons it is obviously improper 
 that the judge shuuld have to report annually on the qualifications and conduct of his 
 junior colleague, and even be empowered, in corjjuncticm with the commissioner of 
 revenue, to recommend his dismissal. Both the otticers should, iherelore, be as much 
 as possible on a footing of equality, such as exists between the (diief and puisne judges 
 in the Queen's courts, and placed directly under the control of their mutual superior 
 court. It may not be out of place to add here what has been suggested with regard to 
 public officers in general — that no judicial officers, whether Europeans or natives, should be 
 removable from office except by a regular trial before a competent court. To ensure the 
 offices of judge and junior judge being in future years filled by persons of judicial 
 experience, not liable to the objection to which covenanted judges are open under the 
 present incongruous sys:em, such as the appointment of postmasters, superintendents 
 of the salt, opium, anil abkaree departments, to seats on the bench of appellate courts 
 without previous legal training ; it should be provided that persons who have, after 
 examination, been sent out by the Board for liie management of the affairs of India, or 
 in a similar manner selected by the local government to fill the higher civil offices, shall 
 commence their career in the judicial line by beiui^ appointed as assistant judges, and 
 ' attached, some to the court of the judge, and some to that of the junior judge, to be em- 
 
 ployed nearly in the manner mentioned as regards assistants to moonsiffs, and promoted 
 after due probation according to the aptitude they may display. As mentioned with regard 
 to moon«ifl's' decisions in civil suits, appeals from the sentences of those officers in criminal 
 cases should be heard by the judge sitting together with the junior judge, whose orders 
 shall be final when both officer^ are agreed, but subject to special appeal to the Nizamut 
 Adawlut, when otherwise, in the same mode as is provided regarding civil cases. Persons 
 committed 10 the sessions should not be tried with the aid of Mahomedan law officers, or 
 with any of the descriptions of assessors sanctioned by the Regulation VI. of 1832, of the 
 Bengal code, but invariably by a jury of their peers, whose verdicts shall be taken in the 
 mode suggested with regard to civil suits. In the trial of commitments, as of appeals, the 
 judge should be joined with the junior judge ; but the sentences passed shoidd be subject 
 to a|)peal to the superior court on points of law only. 
 
 29. The Police and Magistracy. — That the police of the country has always been in a 
 state not at all creditable to an enlightened Government, and has indeed been acknow- 
 ledged by the servants of Government to be "as bad as bad can be." The Court of 
 Directors have, it is true, expressed themselves solicitous of the improvetnent of the police 
 at any cost, but their solicitude has been without any effect. The Government, on 
 appointing a police committee in 18.37 to hold itiquiries on the subject, strictly piohibitcd 
 the suggestion of any reforms which should involve any great increase of expenditure. 
 From that date to this no reforms have been attem|itcd beyond the appointment of a few 
 dt[mty magistrates, and very recently of a commissioner for the suppression of dacoity, 
 who has not yet entered upon the duties of his oflicc. Hence the utmost insecurity of 
 life and property j)revails in every district, and even in the immediate vicinity of the 
 metropolis of British India. The Government have always possessed considerable 
 resources for forming an ellicient police, derived in part from the allowances or produce 
 of lands which had been originally assigned (or the police, but were resumed bv the 
 Government with a view to be applied to their legitimale purpose, but chiefly from the 
 produce of the stamp tax, wdiich was expressly ini|)osed, with the exception of certain 
 items, for defraying the cost of the police. But out of an estimated revenue of thirty lacs 
 of rupees so approjiriable, not more than about seven lacs is actually expended on the 
 police Cbtablibhincnt of the whole of the lower provinces. The Governmciit, however, 
 
 instead
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 505 
 
 insioad of delVayinf^ a suitable sum for llie maiiileiiaiice of an clficient police, have Annondix, No. 7. 
 
 ret'oiitly published the draft of a law to convert the village watchmen, who are paid for 
 
 immediately by the culiivators of the soil, into seivants of tiie State, and to make the 
 zemindars responsible for tiie default of the rvots in paying their private servants, a 
 project which cannoi but result in cumpellinL; the zeuiiudars to pay twice over fur the 
 establishment of the police. Again, the zcminfiars, who have no necessary connection wiili 
 the police, have been arbiirarily burdened, by laws made without their knowledge or con- 
 sent, wiih sundry duties which ought properly to be discharged by their covenanted 
 servants, and the subordinate police ofiicers. The imposition of these duties, without being 
 of any benefit to the country, is converted into an instrument of annoyance to the zemindars 
 by the magistrates and their ministerial officer-, and of extortion by the daio^ahs. The 
 zemindars are frequently summoned, though living at the other end of the province, to 
 appear in presence of the magistrate to explain the cause of their not iurnishing infuraia- 
 tion of crimes of which they had and could have Iiad no knowledge; and tiie managers 
 of their estates are frequently fined, or even placed in duress for various alleged omissions 
 of police duty, and in varions oilu r ways harassed by the ignorance or ca])nce of youthful 
 magistrates. It has even been known that landholdeis residing at the distance of 50 or f>0 
 miles from the scene of a dacoity have been fined for not following and appreheiuling mid- 
 night robbers. The darouahs and other cjfficers of police are furnished hy the same ill- 
 judged laws with means of practising extortions, by employing threats to report alleged 
 instances of neglect of duty. The insufficiency of the police arises not only from the small 
 establishments maintained by the Government, but from the extensive jurisdiction of the 
 magistrates, and the practice of appointing very young men to that olfice, and removing 
 them to higher )X)sisas scon as they begin to acquire experience. The extent of counlrv 
 which is to be travelled over to arrive at the station of the magistrate, the difficulty ol 
 obtaining access to that functionary, except through the medium of the ministerial (jtliceis, 
 the necessity of presenting every petition in writing, and on a stamped paper of the value 
 of half a rupee, about tour times the value of a labourer's daily wages), combine to render 
 it a m;itter ot impossibility to the poorer classes to obtain justice fion: the criminal courts. 
 The large powers vested in the darogahs are liable to abuse, owing to the insufficient re- 
 muneration they receive, and the difficulty of exercising proper control over them, 'i'hc ir 
 entrances into villages to trace out the per|)etrators of heinous offences, or discover 
 property all( ged to be stolen, aie regiirded by the people as visitations. The fact is so 
 notorious, that the Goveinment have found it necessary to pass a law, the Reguldtion II. 
 of 1832, toprevtnt the Darogahs from investigating any cases of burglary, unless expressly 
 desiretl by the party injured, or directed by the magistrate. Hence it is difficult adequately 
 to rejiresent to your Honourable House the actual situation of the poor in the interior, in 
 consequence ol the badness of the police system, since those who are most exposed to the 
 attacks of the powerful and the lawless have most to dread the exactions of the officers of 
 police, many of whom are actually in the pay of the rich, while some have been convicted 
 of practising toiture to obtain their ends. 
 
 30. That, to rt medy such a state of things, it is urgently required that a suitable augmen- 
 tation of the police be made for the repression of dacoity ami other crimes attended with 
 violence, as well as that a sufficient number of magisterial officers, unencumbered with 
 extraneous duli( s, be attached to every district. With reference to the increase of a sutli- 
 cient police lorce, your petitioners desire to bring to the notice of your Honourable House, 
 as a most anomalous circumstance, that, according to the return printed by authority, whilst 
 the highest annual cost of the police of Bengal, which yields a larger revenue and is more 
 populous, was 10, 24, 142 rupees, the lowest annual expense incurred on the s;ime account in 
 the North-western Provinces was 17,30,000 rupees, and the hi-hest 2(i, 94,016 rupees. But, 
 whatever may be the requirements of the new Presidency in this respect, your petitioners 
 submit ihat a certain amount of the revenue expressly raised for the police should be s])ent 
 for that purpose. The present system of village watch, which is entirely supponed at the 
 cost of the ryots, is capable of being used as an auxiliary to the Government police ; but the 
 arrangements which may be consideied necessary to adapt it to that end sliould be intro- 
 duced with the approbation of the people generally, and without destroying the municipal 
 chaiacter ot the institution. Changes are also required in the office of the magistrate and 
 Eis subordinates. The office of superintendeni of police fur the whole of ihe lower provinces 
 is inadequate to fulfil the objects for which it was re-instituud. The magistrates should 
 perform the duty within iheir respective districts, but shouhl have no judicial duties to per- 
 ibim. The office should also be everywhere separate from that of collector of revenue. At 
 present a daiogah is placed over a large extent of country, termed a thanna, but the arrange- 
 ment is in many respects objectionable. The thannas should be broken up into a siilQcienl 
 number of stations, with a jemadar and a certain number of burkundazes at each, according 
 to local circumstances. A deputy magistrate should be phieed over every two of the piesent ' 
 
 thanna jiirisdiciioiis. The deputy magi-trates should make the preliminary inquiry into 
 every charge, and refer misdemeanors and petty felonies to the Mootisilfs' Court for trial, 
 Casej which appear to involve heinous crimes should be sent to the magistrates, who, if 
 agieeing in the opinion of the deputy, should commit them to tiie sessions for trial. 
 Cases refeired to the moonsifl^, which may be discovereil by him to be of a heinous nature, 
 should be committed by him 10 the sessions through the mauistiaie. The magistralts should 
 be excUisivdy under the coiiirid ot the Government, as now, with regard to police duties, 
 jails, &c. It iias been staled before that the magistrates act without being amenable to 
 any tribunal for their irregularities. Your petitioners therefore submit that the uiagistrates 
 O.io. 3 s 4 and
 
 5o6 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 A;>i-en lix, No. 7. and their deputies slioulil be liable for acts beyond ilieir jurisdiction, and fur undue exercise 
 
 of aiithoriiv, to actions for dama<ies, which should he tiier! before the judi^e and the junior 
 
 judge, with the aid of a jury. Tiie proceedings of those officers shouhi also be liable to be 
 brought before the sessions touits by a »rit ot ceniorari or other analogous proceeding. 
 
 31. Monopolies. — That the monopoly of the salt trade by the Company injuriously affects 
 the poor, particularlv those wlio iniiabit the districis where only that manufacture can be 
 advantaoeouslv carried on, as it interferes witii their freedom of action, and prevents saline 
 lands, whicii are unfit fcr cultivation, Ironi being appr.ipnat»'d by the owners to the manu- 
 facture of salt. Even the zeminilars of snch places are liable to severe fines if unauthorised 
 manufactures of salt aie discovered on liieir estates, though unknown to them, so that ihey 
 are conipellfd to act as revenue guards. A single zemind;ir has been known to be fined as 
 mucli as 12,000 rupees at once. The selling price of salt is arbitrarily fixed by the Govern- 
 ment, and is at all limes so high that, ihougii the cnuniry has abundiint resources for the 
 nianufaelure of ihe article, English merchants can afford to iiiipurt it. The dtarness of the 
 aiticle induces even those who live near the salt manufactures to use ea.th scraped from salt 
 lands, while thr)se who reside in the interior, have recourse to the alkali f.:und in the ashes 
 of burnt vegetables. The ofBcers ( niployed in the silt department are vested with judicial 
 powers conirary to all principles of justice and policy, and n(cessarily employ them very 
 irregularly and vcxatii'Usly. The subordinate officers are furnished with opportunities, on 
 pretence of preventing smuggling, of harassing ihe carriers of salt and the refini rs of salt- 
 petre. Your petitioners an ot opinion that, among otiier relornis required in this depait- 
 nient, it is desirable lliat the Govennnent, if they cannot immediately aflord to foreg(; so 
 odious a souicc of reveirue, shoidd fix an unvarying rate of impost on the manuficture of 
 sail, say 200 rupees on every 100 maunds, whereby not only the poor will be greatly bene- 
 fiied, but the laws will be lid of the anomaly of judicial exei^enien and ihc traders of the 
 haiassment caused by the subordinate officers of salt cliowkees. But as salt is a necessary 
 of life the duly on salt shorrld be entirely taken off as soon as possible. The monopoly of 
 the opium trade is not inj 111 ions to the country, so far as regards the revenue realised by the 
 Gov( rnment, as the monopoly price is ultimately paid by the consumers in China; but it is 
 a source of vexation 10 the cultivators, who are compelled to cultivate the poppy and supply 
 the produce to the Giveinment at the valuation fixi d by their own oftlcers. Nor can it be 
 otherwise than that the cultivatois should be at a disadvantage and be liable to oppression 
 when the other contiaeting parly is armed with all the power and resources of the State. 
 Justice therefore- requiies that the interference of the Government with the cultivation should 
 ci ase, and ihai theievenue deiived from the drug should be in the shape of fixed duties on 
 manufacture and exportation, but principally on the latter, as is in some me.isure the case 
 with regard to Midvva opium. By the adoption of tliis principle, ihe cultivators will posess 
 that freedom of action which all men possess under governments that are not constituted on 
 aibitrary and despotic principles; and whateveris lost by such an arrangement will be uioic 
 than mode up i)y the saving that will ensue from the abolition of the expensive establish- 
 ments which are now necessary. 
 
 32. That the Abkaiee duties, or revenue raised from tiie sale of spirituous liquors and 
 intoxicating drugs, and the stamj) duties levied, by obliging litigants and comjdainants lo 
 wriip their petitions on slamped papers, are highly objectionable in principle. The former 
 are levied on tiie opening of. -hops lor the letail of the means of intoxication, and tend to 
 encduraae the consunijition of liquors and drugs by the lower classes, and the increase of all 
 the pernicious consequences that result from it. The Government, by apponting commis- 
 sioners of abkaree and a host ol ambuhmi subordinates termed superintendents of abkaree, 
 whose Ztal for the interests of their masters is measured by the amount of revenue yielded by 
 their risjiectivc divi.-ions, have of late largely contributed lo the deteri()raiii>n of the moral 
 and industrial character of a portion of the population. Measures so pernicious cannot be 
 too sevciely condemned or too soon discontinued, even though a larger revenue were to be 
 derived therefrom than is really the case. Tne legitimate purposes for which duties are 
 imi'osed on the sale of liquors and drugs will be sufficiently answered by imposing them on 
 manufacture and exportation. The stamp laws, by which the other class of duties is im- 
 [losed, also require material revision. The use of stamps in judicial matters does not answer 
 the object for winch thev are avowedly imposed, — namely, the diminution of litigation. On 
 the C'lntrary, thev contribuie to prolong litigation, as they involve on the courts, from llie 
 lowest to the hit;hcst, the duty of deciding )5oints extraneous to the merits of the suits 
 before them. J-'or the purpose of the stamp revenue, every suit has to be valued according 
 lo ceitain rub s laid down by the legislature, the application of which is liable to mucii 
 dc»ul)t and uuceriainty. Hence, questions are fiequently raised as to the observance of 
 ilirise luhs, and the dfcisions of the couits of fust instance are subject to appeals to the 
 higher liiliunals ; and many suits are nonsuited or reman led for reiical merely because 
 the amoiMit oi tlie stamp has not bien correctly estimated, however honestly the plaintiff 
 niay have lornictl that cBtin. ale. In some cases, when the pliintiff woulj willinjjly foic.;o 
 a portion of (he claim which may not stand on so clear a foundation as the rest, he is afraid 
 (o do so, lest his suit be altonether defeated by the objection that he has undervalued his 
 rlaim, and (hiit the stamp is therefire defective. The decisions of the superior court in 
 • he mntti-r of siamps aie not unvarying, and many constructions and circulars are issued 
 to ippnhite the questions which aiise, which are often modified or rescinded, circumstances 
 whicli giraily distract and eml>arrass pleaders and judges in deciding such questions. And 
 it may be faiily stated that not less than ten \>ev cent, of the decisions of the Conipaiiy'.s 
 
 COatS
 
 SELFXT COMMITTED ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 507 
 
 courts turn entirely on considerntionj connected with this most al)surd and injudicious sys- Appendijr, No 7, 
 
 teni ot raisinji a revenue. Tlie operation of the siiim|) laws is still more directly injurious . 
 
 to the poorer classes in their pursuit of justice. Before they car. prosecute a suit of any 
 kind, they must not only incur the ordinal y expenses of other courts, but also lay out at 
 the very outset a certain sum in the purchase of a stamped paper, which in the most 
 trifling case is a rupee, or eiaht times the daily hire of a labourer. Your petitioners 
 submit that laws of this description should not bi' jiermitted to exist. If a revenue from 
 judicial proceedings l)e necessary, it may with projiriety be drawn from those who main- 
 tain vexatious or groundless claims or resist just ones, by imposing on them a Hue calcu- 
 lated on the scale of the present stamp law. 
 
 33. Revenue Officers. — Th;it the system of revenue administration pursued by the Com- 
 pany's Government is a source of vexation to all persons who stand in any relation 
 thereto. The laws enacted for providing for the revenue are ioeqmt.ible in principle, inas- 
 much as ihey provide lor the intfrests of the Government, without rtgard to those of the 
 subjects, anti forbid the interference of the couris of justice to determine the fairness of the 
 decisions of the collectors as to the amount of revenue assessed hy them. The officers of 
 rcveiuie are vested with multifaiious powers, being authorised in some cases to act as 
 niagistiates, and also as civil judges, and thereby led at times to mingle together their 
 fiscal and judicial functions, while many of their duties are left to be performed by irre- 
 sponsible subordinates, who make use of their delegated powers to practice every species 
 of extortion. The management of the revenue may be simplified by having, as has been 
 recently done, but one Board for all branches of the revenue, with a sufficient number of 
 members, both European and native, who mav go into the interior on circuit by lotation, 
 and thus do away with the office of commissioner of revenue for a number of districts, 
 which is shown by experience to be unnecessary under the i)resent .irrangements. Tl\e 
 Board and the colleciors of revenue should be divested of all judicial powers, on the prin- 
 ciple embodied in the preamble of the Itegulation II. of 1793. The collectors of revenue 
 should have deputies under them, according to size of district and extent of business. The 
 salary of ihe office should be rechiced, with reference to the relief uffordid by the separation 
 of revenue and judicial offices. 
 
 34. Works of Utility. — That, though the revenue raised by the Company, both from 
 the land and from other sources, far exceeds what was drawn from the country by its 
 Mahoraedan rulers, a very inadequate portion of it is devoted to improvements in the means 
 of land or water communication. On the contrary, the funds which are raised expressly for 
 providing the means of such improvements, such as the ferry funds, and the tolls on nver.s 
 and canals, are usually carried to the ciedit of the Goxernment. Accumulatinns of these 
 funds, to the extent of several la< s, still remain in the public treasury unappropriated to 
 their specific purposes. Your petitioners therefore submit that the funds m question at 
 the disposal of the fund committees should be expended on local im|Jiovements, subject 
 to the approval of Government, and also that judicial fines in the criminal department 
 should be added to those luntls. In the event of a surplus, after ])roviding for necessary 
 works of utility, a portion thereof may be placed at the disposal of the Government for 
 general purposes. 
 
 35. Education. — That no provision has been made by the Comfjany's Governnunt on a 
 suitable scale for the education of the natives. The sum authorised by Parliament to be 
 expended on educational establishments was tor years unappropriated. Since the establish- 
 uieni of the Committee of Public Instruction several colleiits and other institutions have 
 been est.iblished in various parts of the country, partly with the |)ublic money and paitly 
 with the aid of endowments and other funds derived from private resources. But the edu- 
 cation of the mass of the people has as yet been completely neglected, a sufficient indication 
 of which will be found in the fact that the tot.il sum expended by the Government for 
 the colleges and institutions in the Lower Provinces does not exceed rupees three laca per 
 annum. Your petitioners submit that tin; difiusion of education throughout the country 
 should no longer be neglected. They lurther submit that the university plan proposed by 
 Mr. Cameron, late Piesident of the Committee of Public Instruction (in the Committee's 
 Report for 1845-46), should be established in each Presidency. The plan provides for the 
 admission of those who receive degrees in law and other departments to practise at the bar 
 of the Supreme •and Sudder Couris, and to be engineers in tlie Government service, and so 
 forth; but it should be modified so as to provide lor educated natives entering the medical 
 service on tlie same footing with persons who Iiave hitherto been sent out as assistant 
 surgeons by the Court of Directurs. An express rule on the subject is necessaiy, as it is 
 well known that the young men educated at the Calcutta Medical College, who obtained 
 diplomas after examination in London, faded, notwithstanding the recommendations of 
 several eminent persons, to obtain that position in the medical service wiiich they were 
 entitled to from their qualifications and the declaration in the Charier Act. 
 
 3t5. That the provisions in section 89, and other sections of the Charier Act, for providing 
 an ecclesiastical establishment expressly for the advantage of British subjects, are out of 
 place among the arrangetuents for the govtrnmeni of British India. That government is 
 for a mixed community, the members of which are of various and opposite sects, and the 
 majority is comnosed of Hindoos and Mahomedans. It is, therelbie, manifestly inexpe- 
 dient that the Government should have any connexion with the appointment of the ministers 
 of any religion. All sects should accordingly be left to support the ministers of their 
 
 0.10. 3T respective
 
 5o8 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appcnduc, No. 7. respective religions in the manner tiiey deem most suitable. Your peiitioners do uo 
 
 object to tlic ap|)oiiitmeiit ofcliaplains to the European re„',iiiieiits that are sent (ut to thi 
 
 country, as is done in the United Kins;doin, nor to the appointment of a iliaplain-gpnera 
 in each Presidency for the siovernment of the chuplaius, bui to tlie support ol bishops and 
 other hiiilily-paid functionaries, out of the jiencral revenues of the countrv, for tlie benefit 
 of a small Ijody of Britisii subjects. They submit, accordingly, lor tlie consideration of 
 your Lordships, the expediency of discontinuing tiie connexion of the Government with the 
 ecclesiastical establishment; and in order that Ibis maybe done at an early date, they 
 suggest that the cosi of these estiiblishments be charged to those civil and military servants 
 at each Presidency, town, or station who enjoy tlie benefit thereof; and ihat an increase 
 be madi' to the allowances of tlio>c servants to enable them to meet the additional ex|)en8e 
 imposed on them by this arrangement, but without being continued to their successors, 
 who should bf left to bear this expense among -others incidental 10 thi ir position in tliis 
 country. 
 
 Your petitioners having thus briefly enumerated the points which they deem worthy of 
 the consideration of your Lordships, in connexion with the Charter of the East India 
 Company, now on the eve of ex])iry, and which, so far as thev depend on questions of fact, 
 ihey are prepared to support by evidence whenever required, humbly pray that vour Lord- 
 ships will be pleased to ttiake such arrangements for the government of British India as to 
 your wisdom andjustice may seem fit. 
 
 And yom- petitioners, as in duty bound, shall ever pray. 
 
 (signed) Raja Radkakaiit Bahadur. 
 
 Raja Kalihris/ina Bahadur. 
 Perlaup Chuuder Singh. 
 Sfc. 6fc. Sic 
 
 The Humble Petition and Memorial of the Armenian Inhabitants of the 
 
 Bengal Presidency, 
 
 Respectfully showeth. 
 
 That the memorialists of your Honourable Hnu^e aie of the ancient Armenian race, the 
 national existence of which has lonii been extinct, but of which individual members were 
 the foremost to ;ippreciate the benefits of British Government in the East. 
 
 2d. That ihe resort of Aimeiiians to the British settlemenis in this and other parts of 
 Lidia was coeval with the establishment of those setilements. That the fiist important 
 firman of the imperial court of Delhi in favour of the English East India Company, while 
 it was still in its very infancy, was procured by the agency of Khojah Serhad, an Armenian 
 of gieat (mterprise and influence in those days. It is now a mailer of history, and the con- 
 nexion thus begun with a sense of mutual obligation, was cemented by an instrument of 
 solemn compai.t, ni the nature of a treaty, between Coja Phanoos Calendar, an eminent 
 individual of the Armenian race, ami the then Governor and Company oi Merchants of 
 England trading to tin; East Indies, bearing date the 22d June 1G88, and ratified under 
 the liinids of the Governor and Directors, and by the common seal of the Company. The 
 actual execution of the above instrmiient, a copy of which is appemlfed, for the sake of 
 reference, has never been questioned. 
 
 :$d. That although the above compact may not possess all the binding force of an inter- 
 national Act, in so much as it was made with a mere individual of a race which bad then 
 no existence as a political community, yet did it continue for neaiiy a century to regulate 
 ibe scale of duties levied on the trade of Armenian meichanis at the Company's settlements 
 and dependencies. Whether binding as a treaty or not, it must, at all events, be admitted 
 10 contain the terms |)ubliclv held out by the Company to encourage the resort and seitle- 
 nn nt of Armenians into the factories and places held by the East India Company. 
 
 4tli. Your memorialists beg to draw the attention of your Honourable House to the 
 third Article, which is as follows : — 
 
 "That they (the Armt;iii;ni nation) shall have liberty to live in any of Company's 
 cities, garrisons, or lovvirs in Indi.i, and to buy, sell, purchase land, houses, and be capable 
 of all civil offices and preferments, in the same manner as if they were liiiglishmen born ; 
 and shall always have the free and undisturbed libeity of the exercise of their own religion. 
 And we heieby declare that we will not continue any Governor in our service that shall in 
 any kind disttirb or discountenancu- them in the full enjoyment of all the privileges hereby 
 granted to them. iNeiilnr shall tli' y pay any other ixreater iluty in India than the Com- 
 pany's factors, or any other Ennlislimen born, do or ought to do." 
 
 5th. That upon such invitation and solemn guarantee the Armenians began and have 
 since continued to flow in fiom various parts of Asia, to llie haven of protection and favour 
 thus opened to tbeni. They have tr;'ded and tilled the i arth — have become builders and 
 proprietors — and acknowledge with giatitude tiie unilbrm protection and kindness they 
 have receiveii under the Company's rule. Your petitioners confidently trust that they and 
 •, : those
 
 SELECT COMMITTED OK INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 309 
 
 th (ISO who have precede 1 them have sliowii themst'lvis neither uriwortliy of thib f'uvour 
 nor uiiurattful touiircis their beiiefiictors ; and that oi' the numberless irihes and races that 
 have .successively placed tli'iiisehes within the pale of Biiii^h dominion none has evinced 
 more loyal at taclnnent, or given less occa>ion for the exercise of either coercive or penal 
 measures. 
 
 6th. That of the Armenians now settled within this Presidency the smallest section is 
 that of such as are the issue of forefathers already settled in it before the coming of the 
 Englisli; a large section is composed of such as are of foreign birth, and are themselves 
 original settlers; but, the far greater proportion are those born in this Presidency, the issue 
 of fathers or lorefathers who became settlers upon the inducement abovi-meniioned. 
 
 7th. That many of your petitioners are possessed of large personal property, and also of 
 large propeity in houses and lands witinn the limits of Cnlcutta itself, and also of talooks 
 and zemindaries in several of the zillalis and districts ot this I'residency ; and that of their 
 real property a part is the fiuii of peisonal acquisition, but the greater ])art has ijcen deiived 
 to them from fathers or forefathers by whose industry it was acqinred. 
 
 8tli. That, notwithstanding the existence of the above compact, a treaty with the East 
 India Com))aiiy of the year 1(!80, and moreover notwithstanding the assurance given by 
 the Supreme Governmeii! in the leply of Lord Auckland, Governor-general, 10 their 
 memorial presented in 11!30 to take the subject of their petition into due consideration, 
 that tlie condition of the Armenian iidiahitants in respect to civil rights and privileges, or 
 the position of the memoiialisls of your Honourable House, has not yet been in the least 
 degree altered. That your memorialists unfortunately still labour under the disadvantao'e 
 of being regarded in the couits ( f the Company, more especially of eriminal judicature, in 
 the same light as Hitidus and Mahommedans, and subject to a system of law, if system it 
 can be called, basi d upon the Mahommedan code, and modified by legulations and acts 
 of the local legislature, but so crude and uiulehned as to leave nearly everything at the 
 discretion of those who are entrusted with its interpretation, who are so often destitute of 
 e.xperierice or sound judgment, and which is held in detestation by their more favoured 
 fellow -subjects of British birth, who are for the most part exempt from its application, and 
 who have on all occasions expressed the greatest disgust at every attempt to bring them 
 within its operation. 
 
 9th. Finally,, your memorialists, although so warmly and gratefully att;:ched to the 
 British rule, under which tliey have piosjjered now for u))wards of a century an^l a half, 
 and uiteily unconscious of having done anything to forfeit the good opinion that prompted 
 the flattering terms of invitation upon whicli Armenians became settlers in the territories of 
 the East India Company, and have continued lor upwards of a century to enjoy within the 
 locrl limits of the several residencies all the consideiation that a pariiy of civil rights with 
 natives of Great Britain was calculated to give, find theniselv<s deprived of thee advan- 
 tages when beyond the limits of those residencies, and subjected to a different system of 
 law. Your Memorialists have no hope of lemedy for this, uhicli ihey cannot but consirler 
 as a serious grievance, but from the wisdom and justice of your Honourable House ; to which 
 they present their earnest prayer, — 
 
 That the inequality and grievance above stated may be taken into the serious considera- 
 tion of your Honourable House on the occasion of the expected renewal of the privileges 
 of the East India Company ; and that provision may be then made to secure to your 
 memorialists and generally to the Armenian setth rs within the territories entrusted to the 
 Government ol ilie Honourable East India Company in British India, the full benefil of the 
 contract made with one ol their nation on behalf of himself and those ot his nation, on 
 which they and their forefathers were induced to become settlers within the Company's 
 territories. 
 
 And the memorialists of your Honourable House, as in duty bound, will ever pray. 
 
 .Appendix, No. ^.' 
 
 (signed) 
 
 Calcutta, 10th day o January, a.d. 1863. 
 
 A. Apcar. 
 A. Carraput. 
 A. A. Apcar. 
 Sfc. Sfc. ifc. 
 
 The Petition of the Members of the Blackburn Commercial Association, 
 Respectfully showeth. 
 
 That, Her Majesty's Ministers having announced an intention to submit to l^arliament 
 during the present Session, some me;isure for tl:e future Governnuni of India, \()ur peti- 
 tioners are anxious to record their dissatisfaction with the limited extent of our commerce 
 with that country, and their regret that so little progress has bi en made in the development 
 of its rich and varied resources. 
 
 0.10, 3T2 That
 
 5IO APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix^ No. 7. That your petitioners are of opinion that, in any enactment for the future government of 
 India, the following suggestions sliould be adopted: — 
 
 1. That it be regarded as Ihe imperative duty of the Government of India to pro- 
 nioie the cultivation of the soil, and to remove all obstacles which impede the procrress of 
 industry. 
 
 2. That, beyond making useful experiments, the Government should not be permitted to 
 become cultivators, manufacturers, or traders. 
 
 3. That, in conducting their financial operations, the Government should be forbidden to 
 become purchasers ot any kind of produce on their own account, or to receive by hypothe- 
 cation produce purchased by any other party. 
 
 4. That tlie Government, be compelled to expend a portion of the revenues collected in 
 India in the development of the resources of the country, as well as to affbid every facility 
 for its profitable occupation; that with this view such public works should be promoted as 
 are calculated to facilitate intercourse with or improve the physical condition of the popu- 
 lation, to increase ihe production of (;otton and other valuable raw materials, as also to 
 encourage a system of general industry. 
 
 5. That 10 per cent, of the revenues of India be applied to the public works above alluded 
 to, such as the construction of trunk lines of railways, the formation and improvement of 
 roads and bridges, the deepening and other improvement of rivers, the formation and care 
 of reservoirs and canals, the erection of piers, and construction of harbours, breakwaters, 
 lighthouses, and all other engineering agencies required in a civilized and commercial 
 country. 
 
 6. That the application of the portion of revenue allotted to useful public works be under 
 the control of a board of works, established and conducted in India, the members of which 
 should have full, extensive, but defined powers, and be nominated jointly by the Imperial 
 Government and the Indian Executive. 
 
 7. That the Government should give every facility for the permanent occupation of land, 
 by removing the objeetions so often urged to a fluctuating land tax — by encouraging the 
 purchase, for cultivation, of the waste and other lands of India; and by giving such cer- 
 tainty of tenure as will ensure the safe application of capital to the universal cultivation of 
 the soil. 
 
 8. That prompt attention be paid to the removal of evils now existing in India, con- 
 sequent upon the uncertainty of tlie due administration of justice, and the prevailing 
 ignorance of the people. 
 
 9. That an annual detailed Report on all East India affairs should, as was formerly done, 
 be laid before Parliament by a iVIinister of the Crown. 
 
 Your petitioners commend the foregoing propositions to the favourable attention of your 
 Honourable House, and humbly and earnestly pray that the same may have statutory effect 
 in any legislation for the future government of India. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray, &c. 
 
 Signed on behalf of the Association, by 
 
 Montague J. Feilden, President. 
 
 The humble Petition of Charles Hay Cameron, late Fourth Member of the Council of 
 India, President of the Indian Law Commission, and of the Council of Education for 
 Bengal, 
 
 Htimbly showeth. 
 That, as President of the Council of Education for Bengal, your petitioner had oppor- 
 tunities of observing the d( sire and the capacity of large numbers of the native youth of 
 India for the acquisition of European literature and science, as well as the capacity of the 
 most distinguished among them for fitting themselves to enter the civil and medical 
 covenanted services of the East India Company, and to practise in the learned professions. 
 
 Tli;ii the said native youth aie hindered from making all the progress they are capable of 
 in th(' acquisition of the said literature and science: 
 
 Isf. Because there is not in British India any university with power to grant degrees, as 
 i^ done by universities in Europe. 
 
 2dlv. Because the European instructors of the said native youtli do not belong to any 
 •of the covenanted services of the East India Company, and do not therefore, whatever 
 11 a\ lie their learning and talents, occupy a position in society whicl; commands the respect 
 of theii pupils. 
 
 .3dly. Because no provisions has been made for the education of any of the s;ii(l native 
 youth in England without prejudice to their caste or relitrious feelings. 
 
 Your
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES, 511 
 
 Your petitioner therefore prays, Appendix, No. 7. 
 
 That one or more universities may be established in British India. ^ 
 
 That a covenanted education service may be created, analogous to the covenanted civil 
 and medical services. 
 
 That one or more establishments may be created, at which the native youth of India may 
 receive, in England, without prejudice to their caste or religious feelings, such a secular 
 education as may quality them for admission into the civil and medical services of the East 
 India Company, 
 
 And your petitioner will ever pray. 
 
 ,30 November 185-2, C. H. Cameron. 
 
 The Petition of the City of Manchester, in Public Meeting Assembled, 
 
 Humbly showeth, 
 That, in the opinion of your jielitioners, the constitution of the Indian Government is 
 not adapted to secure the welfare of the people of India, and hns not promoted their best 
 interests, nor provided for that wise administration of affairs which it is the first duty of 
 every government to afford to the people over which it rules. 
 
 That abundant evidence has been adduced to prove, thai under the British Government, 
 the progress of tlie people in industry and wealth has been retarded ; the administration of 
 justice has been defective ; the nature and mode of taxation has been oppressive ; pubhc 
 works have been inadequate for the purposes of communication, navigation, and irrigation ; 
 and that altogether the people have been left in a state of misery disgraceful to their 
 rulers. 
 
 That your petitioners believe that no security can be given for the reform of abuses in 
 India but by a thorough reform of its Home Government, and entertain the opinion that the 
 Court of Directors and Proprietors of the East India Stock should be entirely discon- 
 nected from the Government of India, which, for the future, should in this country consist 
 of a Minister and a Council appointed by the Crown, and directly responsible to the Imperial 
 Parliament. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray. 
 
 Signed on behalf of the meeting, 
 
 Robert Barnes, Mayor, Chairman. 
 
 Tlie humble Petition of Frederick Henry Lindsay, of the Commander-in-Chief's Office, 
 Horse Guards; and the Reverend James Fendall, ol' Harlton Rectory, in the County of 
 Cambridge, Clerk, E.xecutors of the late Elizabeth Grant, late of Cheltenham, in the 
 County of Gloucester, deceased. Widow and Representative of the late Robert Grant, of 
 Cawnpoor, a Senior Merchant in the Bengal Civil Service, 
 
 Showeth, 
 That during the period which elapsed between the years 1776 and 1771), the late Mr. 
 Robert Grant, then residing as a free nrerchant at the town of Furrackabad in Bengal, 
 within the territory of the Nabob Muzuffer Jung, a tributary chief of the native kingdom 
 or vizierate of Oude, became the creditor of the said nabob for the value of certain (mer- 
 chandize which he sold to him ; and in acknowledgment and satisfaction of his claim 
 received certain tuncahs or assignments on the tax gatherers of the Furruckabad territory, 
 over which his debtor ruled. 
 
 That no part of those assignments was yet realised when, in 1783, or shortly previous, 
 Mr. Grant entered the service of the East India Company, and was appointed assist.mt to 
 the British Resident at Lucknow, the seat of the Oude Government. 
 
 That about the same time an English agent was commissioned on the part of Asoph-ul- 
 Dowlah, Nabob Vizier of Oude, to levy the tribute of his subject prince, Mr. Grant's 
 debtor, and a residence being required for the individual appointeil, a house, the property of 
 Mr. Grant, was bought of him by the nabob vizier for the purpose, at the expense of his 
 tributary aforesaid, in whose possession, alter serving the teinpoiary object of the pur- 
 chaser, it ultimately remained. 
 
 That, during this transaction, it was proposed by the nabob vizier, as a means of obviating 
 any inconvenience which might attend on the separate collection by Mr. Grant of that part 
 of the FuiTuckabad revenues whicii had been assigr.ed to him by his debtor, that tiansfer 
 of the assignments which he held shoiild be made to the vizier himself, that prince in return 
 offering to charge his Government witli the caie of realising them, and to bind himself 
 
 0.10. 3T3 personally
 
 5>2 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Ai'ixridix No. ~. personally to niake payment to Mr. Grant of their amount, increased as it now was by 
 -, that of the purchase-money agreed on for the house, which his Highness undertook to pay 
 
 from the same source. 
 
 Thai this arrangement being acceded to by Mr. Grant, he received in exchange for his 
 assignments and his house the nahob vizier's bond for 90,26-5 rnpees, two and a half annas 
 and a quarter, dated on the 12ih of December 1783, and bearing simple interest at 12/. per 
 cent, per annum, the fractional sum being evidence that it was granted on liie settlement of 
 an account. 
 
 That, shortly after the transactions now related, Mr. Grant, by a sudden mandate from 
 the Supreme Government of Bengal, was removed from his situation in the Honourable 
 Company'o service, and at 48 hours' notice required to quit Lucknow. 
 
 That he petitioned in vain to be permitted to return lo it for a time, for the arrangement 
 of his affairs; no replv being vouchsafed to his ap4)lication. 
 
 That he petitioned repeatedly and earnestly, but equally in vain, to be furnished with 
 some statement of tile reasons which had moved to tiie extraordinary measure of his dis- 
 missal; and that the silence upon this subject which was observed then, has been ever since 
 persevered in. 
 
 That at this period the nabob vizier was engaged, in a very distressed state of his finances, 
 in satisfying the huge demands on his revenue of the government of the Honourable Company 
 aforesaid. 
 
 That the consequence of the position in which Mr. Grant found himself now placed was, 
 that the nabob vizier, who had in ihe meantime realised the assignments and the purchase- 
 money of the house, as can be proved from the records of the Furnickabad province, did 
 nevertheless refuse payment of the bond granted for their united amount; and that up to 
 the present day that bond remains undischarged by himself or his successors. 
 
 That, by the death of Mr. Grant, the unsatisfied claim devolved upon the late Elizabeth 
 Grant, his widow and legal personal representative, and by ihe death of the late Elizabeth 
 Grant, on or about the 20th day of March li545, the same unsatisfied claim has devolved 
 upon your petitioners as the executors of her last will and testament, which was duly 
 proved bv your petitioners in the Prerogarive Court of Canterbury, on the 2d of May 1845. 
 
 That it seemed reasonable to expect that a claim which had arisen in such circumstances, 
 and under such circumsiances been resisted, would not be long or finally denied the inter- 
 position of the Supreme Government in aid of its recovery. 
 
 Tlrat, nevertheless, during a long series of years, and in reply to three formal addresses 
 on the sulijcct to the successive administrations of India, Mr. Grant's petition to this eflfect 
 was repeatedly rejected, on the ground that his case did not exhibit such a peculiar 
 character as to justify, and as in other instances had justified already, a departme from the 
 general rule of non-interference in such cases which had beeti laid down by the Company's 
 govern 11) ent. 
 
 That the said Elizabeth Grant, deceased, in her hietinie, in the year 1838, presented a 
 memorial to the Honourable the Court of Directors of llie East India Company, on the 
 subject of the said unsatisfied claim of her deceased husband, the said Robert Grant, and 
 in answer to such memorial of the said Elizabeth Grant, the Court of Directors replied 
 that they saw no reason whatever to deviate from the determination ol the Bengal govern- 
 ment. 
 
 That, in opposition to this opinion, your petitioners with great deference submit that this 
 claim possesses the peculiarity required, in the highest possible degree, ami that the following 
 deductions from the narrative now given are legitimate and conclusive. 
 
 1. That the entire debt was contracted several years before the principle of non-inter- 
 ference was established and declared, or was even suggested, whicli it was by Lord 
 Cornwallis, in 1786. 
 
 2. That the non-interference system itself having only been justified and adopted on the 
 ground of the usurious character ol loans made to the princes oi India, and having been not 
 iitherwise recognised by the Honourable the Court of Diiectors of the East India Company 
 than as applying to cases of loan, would not, even had its adoption taken place at an earlier 
 period, have been considered or at all ajiplicable to a claim like the present, arising from 
 lair and ordinary mercantile transactions. 
 
 3. Thai neither could a principle applicable only to loans have adniiited of being extended 
 to the present case by exception on anv pretext, such as that of its exhibiting the slightest 
 ehat;rct«r of usury, as regards tlie description or amount of interest stipulated in the liond ; 
 and thai it may in this respect be ailvania'j,eouslv contrasted with cases of loans in general, 
 and wiih the favoured case of the Lucknow bankers in particular, in all of which the bonds 
 hole compound interest, some of ihem ai 24, and some even at 36 per cent. 
 
 4. That the Furiuckabad tribute up to ihe amount of the bond paid as it was by MozuflxT 
 .lung, and paid by him expiessly on the late Mr. Giant's account, bore in the treasury of 
 Oude every sacred and peculiar character which can belong lo a deposit, the nabob vizier 
 
 being
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OJJ INDIAN TERRITORIES. 513 
 
 beinsi rather (0 l)e considered as the; late Mr. Grant's steward in tiie matter than as an Appendix, No. 7. 
 ordinary debtor. 
 
 5. That a pDrtion of the claim orif;;inated in a circumstance indirectly beneficial to the 
 Government of the Honourable the East India Company, the acquisition, namely, by the 
 nabob vizier of the house which was required for the accommodation of the cullector of his 
 Iribuie, that tribute assistin<j of course in the liquidation of the demands on ihe Oude 
 Govirnment by the iJonourablc Company itself. 
 
 6. That the Supreme Govenmient of Bengal became a direct and active parly to the 
 nabob vizier's refusal to discharge the ilcbt, by its arliitrary unexplained act of power 
 exercised in Mr. Grant's removal from Lucknow, that Government being, as is perfectly 
 known, the only power or authority held in any respect or fear by the native princes of 
 India, and by the Court of Oude in particular, and conscqmiilly its apparent disjileasure 
 towards Mr. Grant, intimated in the violent measure in question, rtnioving the oidy real 
 securiiy ever held by him for the satisfaction of his claim. 
 
 7. That it was unfortunate for the Government of the Honourable East India Company 
 that the unexplained removal of a private creditor of the nabob vizier's should have been 
 contemporaneous with the liquidation by that sovereign of the demands on his revenue of 
 the Honourable the East India Company themselves, and vvith the difficulties which he 
 experienced in meeting his engagements in that quarter. 
 
 That, in addition to these pleas for interposition in this case, deduced from the facts of its 
 history, it is to be mentioned that an intertisrence for the recovery of a claim closely resem- 
 bling it in its principal features, did actually take place under the administraijon of the 
 Marquis of Wellesley, the chiira, namely, of the late Mr. Michael Prendergast upon Almas 
 Ali Khan, a subject of the Oude Government, it being expressly affirmed by Mr. Lumsden, 
 some time Resident at Lucknow, in a letter addressed by him to the late Mr. Grant, and 
 now extant in the possession of your petitioners (tliough in a paragraph of that letter, in 
 which he contends against the resemblance in question), that the ground upon which the 
 interference in favour of Mr. Prendergast proceeded was, that the acts of oppression and 
 injustice of which he complained, were the immediate consequences of the orders of the 
 Bengal Government for his removal from Lucknow, on which account it is added the 
 Government was bound to see justice done to him. 
 
 That the delay of many years which has occurred in the case in pressing for interference 
 before the Indian administration in this country, is explained by the facts of the prosecution 
 of it in LoPidon having been iinderiakea nearly 30 years ago by the late Mr. Prendeigast, 
 then about to proceed from Bengal to England as the agent of the Lucknow bankers, 
 in their great claim against the same native state, and of its having in his hands, 
 occupied as he was with his more important agency, suffered much, if not entire, neglect, 
 a circumstance which remained unknown to Mr. Grant or his lieiis until so recent a 
 period as 1833, and which, even had they been sooner aware of it, would probably 
 have advanced but little the progress of the suit, seeing that in the bankers' claim tlie 
 proceedings had been protracted without any determinate issue to a still later date, and 
 that upon thatclaim Mi. Grant had always, so to speak, been allowed to wait, it having been 
 always supposed or alleged that on the fate of the one case nuist depend that of the other, 
 though in point of fact the two are wholly unconnected, and exhibit but little resemblance, 
 the superior merits in most respects of that of Mr. Gram's being sufficiently apparent. 
 
 That, at all events, and whatever may have been the causes of the delay suffered, such 
 circumstance does not invalidate the case, inasmuch as no lapse of time can affect the justice 
 of the chiim, or change those peculiar features belonging to it, which your Petitioners 
 would respectfully and with entire deference contend, entitle it to an interference for its 
 recovery on the part of the British Government 
 
 Your petitioners therefore humbly pray, that as your Honourable House is now about to 
 legislate for the future government of India, it may please your Honourable House to 
 appoint a tribunal by which the claim of your petitioners, and all similar claims, may be 
 investigated and determined. 
 
 Frederick Henry Lindsay. 
 James Fendall. 
 
 0.10.
 
 514 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 8. 
 
 RETURN of the Amount of the Salary and Allowances Paid in each Year to the Law Commissioner or Membbr 
 of the Council of India, and the Aggregate Amount; stating also the Names of each Law Commissioner, and the 
 Dates of Appointment and of Resignation, and the Period for which each Commissioner served in the Council, under 
 the Act of 1833. 
 
 
 Date 
 of Appointment. 
 
 Date 
 of Resignation. 
 
 Period 
 of Service. 
 
 Salary 
 per .\Dnum. 
 
 Aggregate 
 
 
 Amount of Salary, 
 
 Law Commissioners and 
 Members of Council : 
 
 Riglit Hon. T. B. Macaulay 
 
 27 June 1834 
 
 16 Jan. 1838 
 
 YRS 
 3 
 
 . M. 
 
 
 
 D. 
 
 20 
 
 S. Rs. 96,000 
 
 or 
 
 Co.'iil*. 1,00,320 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 '• 3,55,531 
 
 lion. C. H. Cameron ■ - "■{ 
 
 22 Jan. 1838 
 15 Feb. 1843 
 
 18 Mar. 18 38 
 9 Mar. 1848 
 
 
 5 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 25 -1 
 23 J 
 
 Co.'s Rr. 
 1,00,320 
 
 5,24,118 
 
 Hon. Andrew Amos . . - 
 
 19 Mar. 1838 
 
 4 Feb. 1843 
 
 4 
 
 10 
 
 17 
 
 1,00,320 
 
 4,89,580 
 
 Hon. J. E. D. Bethune 
 
 11 April 1848 
 
 Died 12 Aug. 1851 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 1,00,320 
 
 3,34.911 
 
 Hon. B. Peacock . - - 
 
 2 April 1852 
 
 - - Accounts 
 
 not received. 
 
 — 
 
 "~" 
 
 L.\w Commissioners: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 G. W. A. Anderson . - - 
 
 19 Feb. 1835 
 
 7 Mar. 1838 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 52,250 
 
 1,57,49.'J 
 
 .1. AV. Macleod ... - 
 
 19 Feb. 1835 
 
 7 Mar. 1838 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 52,250 
 
 1,58,75»- 
 
 C. H. Cameron - - - -J 
 
 12 Aug. 1835 
 19 Mar. 1838 
 
 21 Jan. 1838 
 14 Feb. 1843 
 
 2 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 10 
 
 10 \ 
 27 j 
 
 52,250 
 
 3,83,689 
 
 1'. .Millett, Officiating Member -| 
 
 2 Jan. 1837 
 28 Jan. 1838 
 
 27 Jan. 1838 
 16 Apr. 1844 
 
 1 
 6 
 
 
 2 
 
 26 
 20 
 
 42,000 \ 
 52,250 / 
 
 3,70,02* 
 
 J. Young - - . . - 
 
 22 Jan. 1838 
 
 22 Dec. 1839 
 
 1 
 
 U 
 
 1 
 
 52,250 
 
 1,00,286 
 
 D. Eliott 
 
 14 Jan. 1839 
 
 14 Feb. 1848 
 
 9 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 52,250 
 
 4,74,88a 
 
 I(. Barrodaile . . - - 
 
 23 Dec. 1839 
 
 4 Mar. 1844 
 
 4 
 
 o 
 
 10 
 
 52,250 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 2,19,534 
 
 
 35,68,805 
 
 Mevxi — The following are the sums, as disbursed in each year : 
 
 1834-35 
 1835-36 
 1836-37 
 1837-38 
 I838-.W 
 1839-40 
 1840-41 
 1841-42 
 1842-43 
 1843-44 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 67,995 1844-45 
 
 2,32,988 1845-46 
 
 2,74,386 1846-47 
 
 3,09,115 1847-48 
 
 2,63,952 1848-49 
 
 3,13,674 1849-50 
 
 3,09,.>20 18.'>0-51 
 
 3,09,320 1951-52 
 2,99,803 
 2,.53,278 
 
 (F.rrors excepted.) 
 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 - 
 
 1,54,892 
 
 - 
 
 1,52,570 
 
 - 
 
 1,52,570 
 
 - 
 
 1,40,031 , 
 
 - 
 
 97,533 
 
 - 
 
 1,00,320 
 
 - 
 
 1,00,320 
 
 - 
 
 36,738 
 
 Co.'s Rs. 
 
 35,68,805 
 
 Fast iodiu fiousc,^ 
 20 April 18«). J 
 
 JAMES C. MELVILL.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEURITORIES. 515 
 
 Appendix, No. 9. 
 
 COPY (if the RKi'ORT of tlie Law Comniis>l()ii in 1038, on ihe Institution Fee on Suits of Appendix, No. 9. 
 
 Law in Mysore, nKuie to Lord Aucklniid ; also, Copy of the Act pnpareil by the Law 
 
 Coiiiniis»ioners in 1840, for the introduction of the English l/aw into India generally, 
 as modified by tlie Coniiniscion. 
 
 Note. — In ])ursuance of tlie Act 3 &. 4 Will. 4, c. 85, s. 54, ihe l'ollowin^ Papers were 
 present'd to the Hnuse of Counuons, " The Repon of the Law Coniniission in 1838, on 
 the Iiistitniion Fee on Suits oC Law in Mysore," on the Kitii .luly 1830, which was ordered 
 " to lie on the table;" and " Copy of ihe Aci prepared by the Law Commissioners in 1840 
 for ihe inlroduclinn of the English L;nv into India," was piesented on ihe 30th May 1843, 
 and " ordered to be printed." 
 
 ^'oo\"'^'m V^T''] JAMES C. MELVILL. 
 
 22 A])rd 1853. J 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. 
 
 COPIES of the CoRRESPOXDENCE, or EXTRACTS of CoRRESFONDEXCE and Papers between Append! 
 the Board of Control, the Court of Dh-ectors, and the Government of India, respectino- 
 the Fourth or Legislative IMember of Council sitting in Council while other than 
 Les;islative Matters are under consideration. 
 
 No. 10. 
 
 ^SAjSli^^r'} JAMES C. MELVILL. 
 
 dated 24 August (No. 2) 1834 - 510 
 
 dated 31 August (No. 3) 1035 - 516 
 
 dated November (No. 7) 1835 - 516 
 
 dated 12 Mav (No 9) 1843 - - 517 
 
 LIS T. 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Letter from the Government of India to the Court of Directors, dated 1 Auo-ust 1834 - - - .51G ' 
 
 Ditto ditto - - - . ^ 
 
 Ditto ditto - - - -. 
 
 Ditto ditto - - - - 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto - i - - 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto ----- dated 21 December (No. 25) 1843 - -317 
 Letter from Lord Ellenborough to tlie Secret Committee of the Court of Directors, dated 18 Febru- 
 ary (No. 18) 1844 -- 517 
 
 Letter from tlie Government of India to Court of Directors, dated 16 March (No. 6) 1844 - - 517 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto datedl5 Julj-(No. 14) 1IS50 - -518 
 
 Letter from the Court of Directors to Government of India, dated 10 December (No. 44) 1834 - 518 
 
 Ditto ditto dated 27 February (No. 1) 1835 -519 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto ----- dated 4 March (No. 2) 1835 - -519 
 
 Ditto ditto dated 8 July (No. 3) 1835 - -519 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto ----- dated 29 November (No. 22)1843 - 520 
 Ditto ----- ditto ----- dated 5 June (No. 12) 1844 - - 520 
 
 Ditto ----- ditto dated 3 January (No. 1) I80I -520 
 
 Minute by Mr. Macaulay, dated 27 June 1834 ._.. --.... 5.31 
 
 Minute by the Governor-General, dated 31 July 1834 .-- ---... 5.3.3 
 
 Extract Minute by T. B. Macaulay, Esq., dated 13 June 1835 - - . - - - . -623 
 
 Ditto - by Mr. Amos - dated 27 January 1843 - -----. qo^. 
 
 Ditto - by W. W. Bird - dated 4 Mav 1842 - - 505 
 
 Ditto - by T. H. Maddock dated 8 May 1843 5.35 
 
 Ditto - by Sir W. Casement ---.-. --.-.. 5.>5 
 Ditto - by C. H. Cameron dated 17 November 1843 ----- -520 
 
 Ditto - by Governor-General dated 25 November 1843 - ------ .y>Q 
 
 Ditto - by W. W. Bird - dated 5 December 1843 537 
 
 Minute by the Governor-General, dated 18 February 1844 -- --.-.- 5.^7 
 
 Ditto by W. W. Bird - dated 24 February 1844 5.^8 
 
 Ditto by T. II. Maddock - dated 26 February 1844 - - -----.. j.^g 
 
 Ditto by Governor-General dated 28 February 1844 ----- _ . 50^ 
 
 Letter from the Government to the Honourable C. 11. Cameron, dated 4 March 1844 - - . 501) 
 Letter from the Honourable C. H. Cameron to the Governor-General, dated 7 Rlarch 1844 - - 529 
 Memorandum by the Secretary, dated 26 Novemlicr 1849 - - ---... 509 
 
 Minute by Sir F. Currie, bart., dated 29 November 1849 -- ----.. 5J1) 
 
 Ditto by J. Lowis - - dated 12 November 1849 -- ---... 341 
 
 Ditto by J. E. D. Bethune dnted 12 April 1850 - 54I 
 
 Letter from the Secretary to Government of India witli Governor-General, to Secretary to Govern- 
 ment of India, dated 4 June 1850 -----. ---".._ 543 
 Minute by the Goveriior-C^eneral, dated 29 May 1850 --- --.-.. 543 
 Minute by Sir J. H. Littler, dated 17 June 1850 ---- ---... 543 
 
 Dittoby Sir F. Currie - dated 20 June 1850 51^ 
 
 Dittoby J. E.D. Bethune, dated 2;) June 1850 ,54^ 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3U
 
 5i6 
 
 APPENDIX TO BEPORT FROM 
 
 Appendix, No. lO. 
 
 POLITICAL AND LEGISLATIVE LETTERS. 
 
 * Page 521. 
 Consultation, 
 9 August 1834. 
 Nos. 
 List, Nos. 3 and 4. 
 
 t Page 522. 
 
 No. 10. 
 
 Political Department, dated Ootacamund, 1 August 1834. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 We do ourselves the lionour to forward for your consideration, the accompanying copy of 
 minute * recorded by the fourth ordinary member of Council, on the occasion of taking his 
 seat, together with copy of a minute t by our President on tlie same subject, and to state that 
 we fully concur in all the observations made by his Lordship on this occasion. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) JJ'm. Bentinck. 
 
 Ootacamund, 1 August 18.34. 
 
 Frederick Adam. 
 
 \V. Morison. 
 
 T. B. Macmdayl 
 
 Extract Legislative Letter from India, dated 24 August (No. 2) 1835. 
 
 * Page 523. joi. There were some other objections to whichMr.lNlacaulay replied, inaminute* dated the 
 
 13th June, but these were avoided by a determination which was come to, not to consider the 
 Legislative Council as distinct from the Executive Council; but that there should be but one 
 Council, with a separate legislative department ; the fourth member being understood to have 
 a legal right to be present in any department when laws or matters immediately connected 
 with laws, might be under discussion. 
 
 Duties and powers 
 of the fourth ordi- 
 narj' member. 
 * Despatch, 10 Dec. 
 (44) 1834, page 518. 
 
 Extract Legislative Letter from India, dated 31 August (No. 3) l835. 
 
 12. Feeling the full force of your Honom-able Court's observations on the expectations 
 with which the situation of fourth member of our Council was created, and entirely coinciding 
 in the opinion expressed in these paragrajihs *, of the advantage which must result to the 
 legislative utility of that member, by his being intimately acquainted with the whole of the 
 executive Ijusiness of the Council ; we are happy in being able to repoi't, that we had antici- 
 pated the recommendation made in the 23d paragrajili of this despatch, by requesting the 
 attendance and assistance of Mr. Macaulay at every meeting of our body. 
 
 Legislative Department, 9 November (No. 7) 1835. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Du'ectors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Page 519. We have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch* in the Legislative Depart- 
 
 ment (No. 3 of 1835,) dated the 8th of July, observing that the signature of the fourth 
 member of Council has been annexed to despatches relating to matters not connected with 
 the making of laws and regulations, and desiring that the irregularity may be discontinued. 
 2. The ajjparent irregularity wiiicli has been noticed by your Honourable Court, it lias 
 been heretofore difficult altogetlier to prevent; (questions connected with the franiing of laws 
 and i-egulations, or such as miglit lead to it, having been taken into consid(!ration with the 
 other proceedings of the judicial and other departments, and it not having been always easy 
 to define whether deliberations were, or were not of a legislative character. Now, however, 
 that a separate legislative department has been formed, we trust that your Honourable 
 Court will not have occasion again to observe a similar Irregularity. 
 
 AVe have, &c. 
 (signed) C F. Metcalfe. 
 
 JJ. Fane. 
 IF. Morison. 
 R. SItahcspcare. 
 Fort William, 9 November 1835. T. B. Macaulay.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 517 
 
 Home Department, Legislative, dated 12 May (No. 9) 1843. 
 To tiie Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 
 Wc have taken into our deliberate consideration the unportant subjects of your despatch* 
 
 In this department, (No. 3) dated the . 
 
 1st March last, and have now the ' ^^'^^P'^'^^iVS * '« H'T,^°""V''''°"'' ''"'' "''P'*'''*'"^"* °^ '^'^ ^""'"^'^^^ 
 , . ,. . , . , ordinary Member ot Council. 
 
 honour, in comphancc with your wishes, 
 
 to submit to your Honourable Court + Extracts: 
 
 our views and opinions as contained in Minute by tlie President, dated 4 May, page 525. 
 
 the accompanyino- minutes,i- which we Minute by Mr. Maddock, dated 8 May, jiage oi;5. 
 
 have placed on record. We also en- Minute by .Sir W. Casement, dated 9 May, page 5-25. 
 
 close copies of minutes recorded by Minute by Mr. Cameron, dated 10 May, about the Law Commission. 
 
 Messrs. Amos and Cameron,+ in rcf^ird {^I'""*'^, by Mr Amos, dated 27 January, and enclosure, page 524. 
 
 . ,, T /-N ■ • • i ^1 Minute bv Mr. Cameron, dated 30 March, about the Law Commission 
 
 to the Law Commission, prior to the 
 
 receipt of your despatcli. 
 
 2. Your Honourable Court's suggestion to suspend the appointment of a successor to 
 Mr. Amos was received too late to be acted upon. Our despatch in the general depart- 
 ment (No. 3), dated the 15th of February last, will have apprised you, that with the con- 
 currence of the Right Honourable the Governor-General, we had called in Mr. Cameron to 
 fill the office of fourth ordinary member of the Council of India, until the pleasure of your 
 Honourable Court could be known. We found this temporary arrangement absolutely 
 necessary to give validity to our legislative proceedings. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) fV. W. Bird. 
 
 IVm. Casement. 
 T. 11. Maddock. 
 Fort William, 12 May 1843. C. H. Cameron. 
 
 Home Department, Legislative, dated 21 December (No. 25) 1843. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 We have now the pleasure to forward a copy of the minute* recorded by INL-. Cameron, 
 respecting the office of fourth ordinary member of the Council of India, and the constitution 
 of the Law Commission, together with copies of the minutes f recorded by the Governor- 
 General and by ourselves, with reference to Mr. Cameron's views. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) W. W. Bird. 
 
 H'm. Casement. 
 T. H. Maddock. 
 Fort William, 21 December 1843. C. H. Cameron. 
 
 * Page 526. 
 
 t Pages .526, 527 
 
 Foreign Department, Secret; dated Benares, 18 February (No. 18) 1844. 
 
 To the Honourable the Secret Committee of Honourable the Court of Directors. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 I have the honoiu" to transmit to you a minute*, which I have this day recorded, with 
 reference to your letter of the 29th of November 1843, wherein you express a desire that 
 the fourth member of Council should be present at meetings of tlie Council, not held for the 
 purpose of passing laws and regulations. 
 
 I iiave, &c. 
 (signed) Ellenhorowjii. 
 
 * Page 527. 
 
 Home Department, Legislative ; dated 16 jNIarch (No. 6) 1844. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Du-ectors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 With reference to your despatch. No. 22, dated 29 November 1843, and to the Governor- 
 Generafs reply, dated the I8th ultimo, we have the honour to trausmit the accompanying 
 0.10. 3 u ? copies
 
 5i8 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 * Pages 527, 528, copies of our minutes* of the dates specified on the margin, and of our letter to Mr. Cameron' 
 529. '^Legr.Cons., 16 requesting his attendance in the Council, when important matters connected with the 
 March 1844, 1 to 6. judicial and revenue administration may be imder consideration. 
 
 We h.ave, &c. 
 (signed) Ellenhorough. 
 W. W. Bird. 
 W. Casement. 
 Fort Wilham, 16 March 1844. T. H. Maddock. 
 
 Home Department, Legislative, No. 14 of 1850. 
 
 To the Honourable the Coiu-t of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Some discussion having taken place at this Board in regard to the shai-e which the fourth 
 ,,.--„ , ,a,„ ordinary member of Council should take in 
 ^^^a'e'^'r'"'''"^""' ^'^^ ^' ''^"'^'"^'- '^''^^'^ -^ November 1849, ^^^^ ^,,.^^^^^ic,^„^ of the Council, we have the 
 
 ]\ImutVbv' the Hon. Sir F. Ciirrie, Bart., dated '29 Nov. 1049, page 540. honour to transmit the minutes wlilch have 
 Minute by the Honoiirable J. Lowis, dated 12 November 1849, page 541. been recorded on the subject, and to solicit 
 Minutebythellonoiirable J. E.D.Betlnine, dated 12 April 1850, page 541. ^. Honourable Court's decision on the 
 
 Minute by the GoT,""?;.f ^"^f V'f,^'' "^ iL^o ^^tt '^if ^"''^' Poi"t that has been raised. 
 
 INIinute by Sir J. H. Littler, dated 17 June Ib.DO, page o44. 1 
 
 Minute bv Sir F. Currie, Bart., dated 20 .Tune 1850, page 545. -ly j o 
 
 Minute by the Honourable J. E. D. Bethune, dated 29 June 1850, page .545. *= '""'=' '^^• 
 
 (signed) J. H. Littler. 
 F. Currie, 
 Fort William, 15 July 1850. J. Lmvis. 
 
 J. E. D. Bethu 
 
 ne. 
 
 LEGISLATIVE DESPATCHES. 
 
 Extract Public Letter to India, dated 10 December (No. 44) 1834. 
 
 19. Wliile thus considering tlie deliberative part of your duties, our attention is neces- 
 sarily led to one important alteration which the Act has made on the constitution of the 
 Supreme Council. We allude to tlie appointment of the fourth ordinary member of 
 Council, as described in the 40th clause. 
 
 20. In the first and simplest view of this remarkable provision, the presence and assistance 
 of the fourth councillor must be regarded as a substitute for that sanction of tlie Supreme 
 Cotirt of Judicature which has hitherto been necessary to the validity of regulations 
 aftectiiig the inhabitants of the Presidencies, but which, under the new system, will no longer 
 be required. It is, however, evident that the view of the legislature extended beyond the 
 mere object of providing such a substitute. 
 
 21. The concurrence of the fourth member of Council may be wanting to a law, and 
 the law may be good still, even liis absence at the time of enactment will not vitiate the 
 law ; but Parliament manifestly intended that the whole of his time and attention, and 
 all the resources of knowledge or ability which he may possess, should be employed 
 in promoting tlie due discharge of the legislative functions of the Council. He has indeed 
 no pre-eminent control over the duties of tliis department, but he is peculiarly cliarged with 
 them in all tlicir ramifications. His will naturally be the principal share, not only in the 
 task of giving sliape and connexion to the several laws as they pass, but also in the mighty 
 labour of collecting all that local information, and calling into \iew all those general consi- 
 derations which belong to each occasion, and of thus enabling tiie (Council to embody the 
 abstract and essential principles of good government in regulations adapted to the peculiar 
 habits, character, and institutions of the vast and infinitely diversified people under their 
 sway. 
 
 22. It will be obsei'ved tliat tlie fourth member is declared not to be entitled to sit or vote 
 in the Council, except at meetings for the making of laws and regidations. 
 
 2.3. We do not, however, perceive that you are precluded by anything in the law from 
 availing yourselves of Jiis presence without his vote on any occasion on which you may 
 think it desirable ; and on nianv, if not all, of the subjects on which your delil)erations may 
 turn, an intimate knowk'dgc of what passes in Council will be of essential service to him in 
 tlie di-icliarge of his legalative functions. Unless lie is in lialiits of constant communi- 
 cation, and entire confidence witli iiis colleagues, unless he is familiar wiih the details of 
 internal administration, with the grounds on whicii tlic Government acts, and with the 
 information by whicii it is guided, he cannot possibly sustain liis part in the legislative 
 conferences or measures witli tlie knowledge, readiness, and independence essential to a due 
 performance of his chity-
 
 SELECT CO.M.MITTHK ON INDIAN TKRUIToRIES. 519 
 
 LECiisLATivE Department, 27 February (No. l.j 1835. Appendix, No. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 Para. 1. ]Mv. Macuuiay, in his minute, observes, that " tliougli tlu; fourth member of 
 Council may have no vote on a (juestioii, ihr example, of war, yet he will have a vote when 
 the question is about furnisliing the sinews of war ; and his opjiosition on tiie question of 
 supply may prevent the Executive Council from carrying its purpose into effect, or may 
 force the Governor-General to ha^c recourse to his extraordinary authority." 
 
 2. The question thus opened, whether the Governor-General can, under the 49th section 
 of the Actof the 3d and 4tli Will. 4th, c. 85, overrule the Council in its legislative capacity, 
 and make, suspend, alter or repeal a law or regulation ol" his own authoiity, appeared to us 
 of such high importance, that the determination of it by competent authority should not be 
 delayed. 
 
 3. We have received the opinions of the law otHccrs of the Crown, and of our own 
 standing counsel on the subject, which all concur ; and we now transmit them, with the 
 case submitted to them, for your information and guidance. 
 
 We arc, &c. 
 (signed) Henry G. Tucker. 
 PV. S. Clarke. 
 
 London, 27 February 1835. 
 
 Legislative Department, 4 March (No. 2), 1835. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 Para. 1. To obviate future misunderstanding upon a point of high constitutional import- 
 ance, we think it necessary to take immediate notice of an opinion expressed in the letter of 
 the Vice-President in Council, addressed 10 the Governor-General, under date the 31st of 
 May 1834. 
 
 2 . The passage to which we allude is in the 6tli paragraph of the letter, and in these words ; 
 "If it should appear to your Lordship to be necessary to have recourse to the Legislative 
 Council, in order to confer a more formal legality on the proceedings of this Govei-nnicnt as 
 at present constituted, the best mode of effecting this will, we doubt not, have your Lordsliii)'s 
 attention." 
 
 3. It is implied in these words, that the Legislative Council has the power of conferring 
 legality upon proceedings of the Government, where such proceedings shall not be in con- 
 formity with the provisions of the Act of Parliament. We can hardly doubt that this mis- 
 take was upon reflection apparent to yourselves, still for greater security, we think it advis- 
 able to refer you to the 43d section of the Act of 3d & 4th Will. 4th, c. 85, from which 
 the Legislative Council of India derives its authority. You will perceive that the section 
 expressly excepts from the legislative power conferred upon the Governor-general iu Council 
 the power of making any law or regulation which shall in any way repeal, vary, suspend, or 
 affect any of the provisions of the Act; but a legislative enactment of the Council, purport- 
 ing to give a formal legality to a proceeding not in conformity with the Act, would clearly 
 affect its provisions, and being in excess of the authority given to the Council by the Legisla- 
 ture, would be necessarily void. 
 
 4. The attention of the Legislature will be drawn to the necessity of imparting its sanction 
 to such pi'occedings of the Government of India as, under the pressure of the occasion, have 
 not been in perfect conformity with the provisions of the recent Charter Act. 
 
 5. We also take this opportunity of observing that our meaning in paragraph 12, of our 
 letter to you of the 27t]i December 1833, relative to the question of a Council for Bengal, 
 ias been coiTCctly interpreted in the letter of the Vice-President in Council now under 
 observation, and in the minute of Mr. Maeaulay, dated 29th June 1834. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) //)/. 6'. Gen. Tucker. 
 W. S. Clarke. 
 London, 4 March 1835. &c. &c. &c. 
 
 Legislative Department, 8 July (No. 3) 1835. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 Para. 1. We have several times observed the signature of the fourth member of the 
 Council of India annexed to despatches relative to matters not connected with the making 
 of laws and regulations ; though he could not be present at deliberations on such matters as 
 a member of Council. 
 
 0.10. 3^3 2. The
 
 ppendix, No. 10. 
 
 520 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 2. The sio-nature of the fourth member to a document, in respect to which he shares none 
 of the responsibility, is evidently an irregularity which ought not to exist. We therefore 
 deem it necessary to call your attention to it, and to require that it be discontinued. 
 
 London, 8 July 1835. 
 
 We are, &c.. 
 (signed) W. S. Clarke. 
 
 J. R. Caniac. 
 &c. &c. &c. 
 
 Extract Legislative Letter to India, dated 29 November (No. 22) 1843. 
 
 2. We have also adverted to the opinion of former Governments, in which you have 
 expressed a o-eneral concurrence, that it is of importance, with a view to the efficient j^er- 
 formance of the duties belonging to that appointment, that the person filling it should be 
 iH-esent at all meetings of Council for the administration of the affairs of Government. In 
 conformitv to that opinion we desire that the presence of the fourth men;iber of Council may 
 not be restricted to meetings held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations ; but, at the 
 same time, vou will bear in mind that, at such meetings only, is he entitled to a voice in 
 your proceedings. 
 
 ourth member of 
 ouncil. 
 
 Legislative Department, 5 June (No. 12) 1844. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 Wliole Secret (Governor-General's) Letter, 18 February (No.) 1844. 
 Legislative Letter - - - - 16 March (No. 6). 
 
 Para. 1. We forbear from commenting on the terms in which you have in your several 
 minutes, adverted to the instructions addressed to you in our letter of the 29th of November 
 last, reo-arding the fourth member of Council, but it is necessary that we should set you right 
 with respect to some degree of misapprehension entertained by you on the subject. 
 
 2. In the letters in question, we desire, in conformity with the practice which until recently 
 had always been observed, " that the presence of the fourth member of Council may not be 
 restricted to meetings held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations ;" but at the same 
 time we drew your attention to the provision of the Charter Act that he " shall not be 
 entitled to sit or vote in the said Council," except at such meetings. We thereby showed 
 you clearly that we did not consider our instructions to be inconsistent with that provision. 
 
 3. The fourth member not being " entitled to sit or vote in the said Council," does not 
 form a component part of that body and has no voice in its iiroceedings, except for the pur- 
 pose of making laws and regulations. But the expression " to sit" in Council is not used in 
 a literal sense, as if the Council were the place where the members met, instead of tlie con- 
 stitvient body itself. It seems sufficiently obvious that it was not intended to be illegal for 
 the fourth member to be present at all meetings of Council, from this consideration alone 
 that he would in that case be the only individual subject to such a disqualification. 
 
 4. Witli respect to the attendance of the fourth member at the Council while it may be 
 enaao-ed in (piestions purely of a political or military nature, we concur with the opinions con- 
 veyed in the minutes which you have forwarded to us from the other members as to the pro- 
 priety of his absence upon such occasions. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) J. S/tep/tcrd. 
 
 II. miiock. 
 
 London, 5 June 1844. &c. &c. &c. 
 
 Recardingtlie share 
 to 1)6 taken by the 
 fourth orilinary 
 member of Council 
 in the proceedings 
 of Government. 
 
 Legislative Department, 3 January (No. 1) 1851. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 Para. 1. In your letter in this department of the 15th July 1850 (No. 14), you liave 
 applieil for our decision, whether the minutes of the fourth member of Council, on ques- 
 tions not belonging to the legislative department, ought to be placed on the records of 
 Government. 
 
 2. As the fourth member of Council has no voice and no responsibility, except at meetings 
 lor making laws and regulations, it seems to us desirable, as a rule for general practice, that 
 in otiier departments his sentiments should not be placed on record; but it will continue to 
 be in your discretion to ask his opinion (as was stated to have ijcen done with respect to 
 Mr. Amos, in your revenue letter of the 15th of June 1839, para. 20), either orally or in 
 writing, on any occasion when you may stand in need of such assistance as his knowledge 
 and experience may enaljle him to afford. 
 
 We are, Sec. 
 (signed) J- Shepherd. 
 J. W. Horjrj. 
 London, 3 January 1851. &c. Sec. &c.
 
 SELECT COIMMTTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 521 
 
 In India Political Letter, dated 1 August (No. 10) 1834. Appendix, No, 
 
 Extract India Political Consultations, 9 August 18.34. 
 
 (No. 7.) 
 
 Minute by Mr. Macanluy, 27 June 1884. 
 
 I FEEL it to be my duty, on entering upon my new functions, to bring under the notice of 
 his Lordship in Council tiie great difficulties of the situation in which I am placed. The 
 clause of the Act of Parliament which defines my powers is so worded, that until it is 
 explained by some competent authority, I shall be constantly in doubt as to the course wliich 
 I ought to pursue. I shall scarcely ever be able to act witiiout an apprehension that 1 wvaj 
 be intermeddling in what does not concern me, or to refrain from acting without an ajipre- 
 hension tliat I may be shrinking from labour and responsibility which it is my duty to 
 encounter. 
 
 2. As I was a Member of the House of Commons, and Secretary to the Commissioners 
 for tlie Affairs of India, diu'iiig the year 1833, I should have been inexcusable if I had not 
 given the closest attention to the provisions of the Act. It may be thouglit therefore that 
 I ought to be able to furnish exj)lanations instead of being forced to ask for them. I hope 
 that, in my own vindication, and without tlie least disrespect to any branch of the Legisla- 
 ture, I may be permitted to mention what is now matter of history, that the words of which 
 I desire to have an explanation were not in the Bill when it passed the House of Commons, 
 but were added at a very late stage ; 1 think on the third reading in the House of Loi-ds. 
 The words to which I refer are these. "Provided that such last-mentioned member of 
 Council shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the said Council, except at meetings thereof 
 for makiuij laws and reo-ulations." 
 
 ^& 
 
 3. India, then, is under the government of two Councils differently comjMsed, the one a 
 legislative, the other an executive body. It seems to me that something more than the 
 words which 1 have quoted was required to define the provinces of these two authorities. 
 During tlic last 60 years many constitutions have been framed in Europe and in America; 
 and I will venture to say that there is not one of those constitutions in wliich it has not been 
 thought necessary to draw the line between the functions of the executive and those of the 
 legislative body, witli a degree of care and precision very different from what is to be found 
 in the words which I have quoted. 
 
 4. And the reason is obvious. The line which separates legislative from executive pro- 
 ceedings is not a natural but an arbitrary line. It is diflferently drawn in different countries 
 at the same time, and in the same country at different times. In England, the declaring of 
 war is an executive act. By the constitutions of some otiier countries it is a legislative act. 
 In England, at present, the executive power can pardon any criminal. In the time of 
 the Commonwealth the Protector could not pardon miu'der ; an Act of the legislature was 
 necessary. Indeed the history of the East India Company furnishes an excellent illustra- 
 tion of my meaning. It was long disputed, among lawyers, whether the exclusive commer- 
 cial privileges once enjoyed l)y that body could be legally conferred by the executive power, 
 or whether an Act of the legislature was necessary. In Elizabeth's time the doctrine 
 favourable to the exccirtivc power was generally admitted. Since the Revolution it has been 
 almost universally held that an Act of Parliaiuent alone could give a monopoly to any 
 person or corporation. It would be easy to multiply instances; but those which I have 
 given are sufficient to show that the line between legislative and executive proceedings is 
 very differently drawn in different places and in different ages. 
 
 5. Where, then, is it to be drawn in the Indian Government ? The Act of Parliament 
 constitutes an Execi:tive and a Legislative Council ; but it makes no partition of power 
 between them. Hitherto no doubts could arise, because there was a single bodv wliich 
 possessed the whole power, legislative and executive. Under the new system doubts will 
 arise every day, unless .something be done to set them at rest. 
 
 6. In the absence of all explanatory words, it seems not unnatural to suppose the inten- 
 tion of the Legislature to have been, that the partition of power in the Ciovernment of India 
 should be analogous to that vvhieh exists in the Government of England; that the E.xecutive 
 Council should exercise the same prerogatives which at home belong to the Crown ; and 
 that an Act of the Legislative Council should be necessary in all cases in which, at home, 
 an Act of Parliament is required. If we put this sense in the clause, and I am unable to 
 find anymore probable sense, it follows that the army cannot be augmented in time of peace; 
 that taxes cannot be imposed even fur local purposes : that money cannot be borrowed on 
 the public faith of the Indian empire, withoui a vote of the Legislative Council. No state 
 prisoner can be detained in custody witiiout such a vote. No treaty wltii any neighbouring 
 power, stipulating for any payment of money on our part, will be binding without such 
 a vote. 
 
 7. It is plain that. If this rule be adopted, the Legislative Council will exercise in India, 
 as a Parliament exercises in England, a control over almost all the proceedings of the 
 Executive Government. Tliough the fourth member may have no vote on a question, for 
 
 0.10. 3 u 4 example
 
 5-22 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM 
 
 i.eudix, No. 10. example, of going to war, yet he will have a vote wlicn the question is about furnishing 
 L ' the sinews of war, antl his o])jiosition on the question of supply may prevent the Exe- 
 cutive Council from carrying its purposes into eft'ect, or may force the Governor-General 
 to have recourse to his extraordinary authority. 
 
 8. Whether this be or be not the sense in which the words of the Act are to be 
 understood, I am altogether in doubt. I wisli thes^ doubts to be submitted to the Court 
 of Directors; and, until an explanation shall arrive from home, I shall leave it to the 
 Governor-General and tlic other members of Council to detemiine what share of the 
 public business tht-y will assign to me, neither intruding myself into any deliberations 
 from which tliey think that 1 ouglit to be excluded, nor declining any labour or any respon- 
 sibility which they may invite mc to sliare with them. 
 
 (signed) T. B. Macaulay, 
 
 Ootacamund, 27 June 1834. 
 
 (No. 8.) 
 
 Minute by the Governor-General. 
 
 31 July 1834. 
 In reference to Mr. Macaulay's minute of the 27th of June, respecting his own position 
 in Council, I feel it to be unnecessary for me, even were I competent to the task, to offer 
 any opinion upon tlie legal and constitutional difficulties he has so clearly described, and 
 which can only be solved by the authorities to whom they have been addressed. 
 
 2. There is, however, another view of this subject, precisely bearing upon the same point, 
 that is much less complicated and theoretical, and more within the rdach of my humble 
 judgment, which seems to me quite as deserving of consideration as the questions propounded 
 by Mr. Macaulay. 
 
 3. I shiJl first assume, what indeed is my opinion, that the new Act has not altered the 
 character of tiie Council ; that it is one and tlie same for executive and legislative purposes; 
 that, in its executive capacity, it can make peace and war, raise money, and do all that it 
 has heretofore done, witliout requiring the interference of the same Council, in its legislative 
 capacity, to give validity to its acts ; and that the only restrictions imposed upon its powers 
 of legislation are, that in making laws it must have tlie advice of the fourth member, and 
 that no law can pass unless tiiree ordinary members be present at the Council ; and it is 
 further directed, tiiat the fourth member shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the Council, 
 except at meetings for making laws and regulations, wiiich must mean that he shall take no 
 part, perhaps that he shall not even be present. 
 
 4. It is to this particular ])oint, the exclusion of the fourth member from the ordinary 
 sittings of the Council, to which I wish particularly to advert, as detracting very much from 
 'his usefulness, if not incapacitating him from the very important duties confided to him by 
 
 the Legislature. Mr. Macaulay lias never been in India ; and lie and his successors, like the 
 greater part of the past, and jirobably of future Governors and Governor-Generals, as a 
 stranger to the countr}- for wliich he is to play the principal part, in making laws and regu- 
 lations, he certair.ly may give most useful advice to the Council in the drawing up of their 
 laws, so that they shall contain nothiuL;- either repugnant to the laws tif Eniiland, or at 
 variance witii the enlightened spirit of the age. All this knowledge, which the fiiurtli member 
 may be supposed ]jeculiarly to possess, will be liighly useful in giving simplicity and clearness 
 to our law>, in rendering them more philosophical, and therefore better and wiser, and more 
 likely to hannoni'so with the feelings of the distinct races which we have to govern. But 
 all this is mere tlicory of the art whicli he is come to exercise. Where is he to gain his 
 practical knowledge of the state of society, of its manners, its feelings, and its customs ? 
 How is he to discover what there is to remedy, to reform, or to preserve ? IIow is he to 
 discover the aliuses or the imperfection of mu- aduiini>tration in any of its branches, revenue, 
 judicial, or police? llow is he to become acquainted with the etl'ect of the existing laws 
 and institutions upon the immense po])ulation ? He must learn all this somewhere, or lie 
 will be a poor legislator, l^rom the iicople themselves, the main objects of his care, he will 
 learn nothiug. They are r. t consulted, and hitlierto they have had no means of making 
 themselves heard. With thim he can Imve little intercourse, and to the greater part of the 
 European residents, any correct information n])on all these details is as inaccessible as to him- 
 self, lie can only learn his lessons in tiic same waj' that all Govcrnois, who have been 
 Strangers, have done before him, by following, day by day, the reports of all the function- 
 aries of the emj)ire, and by hearing in every week's consultations not an insulated opinion 
 only, which migiit be gained eisewlierc, but the geueral discussion ol all (piestions, and the 
 results of the long cxjierience of the aljle and responsible men who compose the Council. 
 The firocec<linu'H of the Government contain tlu' only ri?al record of present life, and of the 
 actually ]i;L-siM;i condition of India, although 1 nuist !iduiit that these nuist remain but a 
 very iniperiecl index eiliier to the feelings of the peojile, or to the etic'Ct of our laws and 
 regulations, until the natives ti)cmselves can be more mixed iu their own government, and 
 become rcs])onsib]c advisers and partners in the administration. In short, I cannot but 
 think that the introduction of this restriction, as it seems to have been a late and sudden 
 
 .ict.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX 1M)1.\.\ TEUJUTOlllES. 523 
 
 act, was not well ooii^idereil ; for it cannot surely be lulvisiible, at the saino time tliat you Appciidix, iNo. 10; 
 
 declare tlic Council, as liitlieito eoustitutecl, lo be lame ami in.<uflicieMt for \\\v. purtMises 
 
 of legislation, tlius to blindfolil the single guide ajjpointed to eouduct, liieiu iu tlii/lr way. 
 
 5. I might stop here, but I will liep; leave to say iurtiicr, that in my judgment the exclu- 
 sion in question operates as prejudicially upon the general Executive Government a» it does 
 U|>on the same Council in its legislative capacity. 1 have, upon another occasion, suggested 
 the advantage to our judicial administration of introducing into our superior courts, strangers, 
 not mere English lawyers, but men well acquainted witii the scienci^ and pliiloso|)hy of law, 
 who might look into the practice of our courts, and into the actual working of our regu- 
 lations in the Mot'ussil, unbiassed by ancient prejudice, or tlic exclusiveness of the civil 
 service ; and who might be able to point out how tlic modern imj)rovements of Europe 
 Could be brought to bear upon the Indian system. In like manner I feel about the Council. 
 There has been created a new appointment, which will always be filled, it is to be presumed, 
 by a man of the first talent, and of tlic highest attainments. Why cast away the prodigious 
 benefit to be derived from such an adviser in a Council of four only, to whom such mighty 
 interests are entrusted .' It has happened that the Council of India, since its formation, has 
 been as much occupied with the execulion of the pro\isions of the new Bill and with legis- 
 lation as by other matters, and 1 have therefore felt it my duty ahvaj-s to call lor the assist- 
 ance of a lull Council. And I have considered myself peculiarly fortunate in the occasion 
 that has placed Mr. Ironside's services at my disposal. I am satisfied there is not a member 
 of the Council that would not readily testify to the very grciit value of the aid we have 
 derived from the fourth member in the decision of the many ditlicult and important questions 
 that have come before us. In the course of these consultations, I have felt the difficulty of 
 exactly interpreting the meaning of the clause respecting the fourth member's duties. When 
 and where does legislation begin? In every Council, particularly in the Political Depart- 
 ment, questions liave come before us appertaining to international law, reciprocal jurisdiction, 
 claims for fugitives, &c. ; and again, in the estalilisliiiig an administration, compreliendin"- 
 the whole internal management both in Mysore and Coorg. both countries not yet within the 
 the pale of our territories. Do such subjects come within the province of the fourth coun- 
 cillor's interposition ? 'I'here are many representations and references to each Council in the 
 other departments, save the military, upon which the Ciuestion may, and does often arise, 
 wdiether some legal enactment should not take place. Is it at this stage of the deliberation, 
 or when the framing of the law has been determined, that we are to call in the fourth member ? 
 There will be endless doubts upon this point, and I uill take the liberty of stating an opinion 
 as to a result which will not have been in the contemplation oi' the inventor of this exclusion, 
 that « ith this latitude of construction, a Governor-general, if he so fancies, will have it in 
 his power to make a mere cypher of this important personage. 
 
 (signed) W. C. Bentinch, 
 
 Ootacamund, .31 Julv 1834. Governor-General. 
 
 In India Legislative Letter, 24 August (No- 2) 1835. 
 
 Extract :Minute by the Honourable T. B. Macaulay, Esq., dated 13 June 1835. 
 
 If Mr. Prinsep's resolution be adopted, a draft of the law of the highest importance may Respectina drafts 
 be sent to Calcutta by the Governor of Fort St. George iu Council. The Executive Council "•" '•'"•■'• 
 may have this draft before tliem tor a considerable time in the judicial or financial depart- 
 ment. Long minutes may be recorded on it by the Governor-General, and b}' the three 
 senior members of Council; fresh in formation may be called for; circulars may be sent all 
 over the country ; a copious correspondence may take place with the ^ladras Government ; 
 references may be made to the Law Commission, and answers received ; this may go on for 
 six months, and during all this time the fijnrth member of Council, sent to this country ex- 
 pressly for the purpose of legislation, solcmnh' reminded by the Court in their late despatch 
 that though all tiie members of the Council are entitled to projiose and discuss laws, his 
 time and faculties are to be peculiarly devoted to that department of public business, con- 
 sidered both here and at home as especi dly responsible for the manner in which the work of 
 legislation is carried on, would have no right to see a single paper or to hear a single discus- 
 sion, and would certainly be precluded from voting on any question and from recording any 
 opinion. 
 
 By the kindness of the late and present Governor-General and of my colleagues, I have 
 been permitted to see every public document and to assist at every deliberation ; but this 
 may not always be the case. A Governor-General may be on bad terms with the fourth 
 member of Council. Such a Governor-General would be borne out by the letter of the Act 
 of Parliament in excluding the fourth member from all knowledge of what was doing in the 
 executive departments of the Government. Mr. Prinsep proposes to transfer to the execu- 
 tive department half the business of legishttion. If this course be adopted, it will be in the 
 power of the Governor-General to oust the fourth member of Council from the great part 
 of his legislative functions. 
 
 I deny both the expediency and the legality of such an arrangement; I deny the expetli- 
 ency ot admitting a person to vote on the passing of a law, who has not been admitted to 
 take part in all the preceding discussions on it; I deny the legal right of the Council of 
 
 o.io. 3 X India
 
 524 APPENDIX TO RL^P()RT FROM THE 
 
 \ppendix, No. 10. India tt) cxcliule tlie fourth member of Council wliile they are dehberating on a draft of a 
 
 law in the financial ov j>idicial dei)artmcnt ; I claim for myself and my successors a legal right 
 
 to record an opinion and to ^ive a vote, not merely on the final passing of a law, but on 
 every (question whieli may arise respecting a law in any of its stages. Tlie Council, I trust, 
 will not decide against this claim without a reference lionie. 
 
 I have done my best to make out the reasons on which Mr. Prinsep grounds his proposi- 
 tion, but I am quite at a loss to understand them. He says that the public authorities must 
 not be taught to believe that they liave two masters; that question is for higlier authority 
 than ours. Parliament has tliought fit to confide the E.xccutive Government of India to one 
 body, and tlic Supreme Legislative Power to another body. If this be an evil, let us apply 
 to the Home Authorities to" rid us of it. Indeed we have already done so. The Council at 
 Ootacaniund afree in recommending to the Court of Directors that projicr measures sliould 
 be taken for removing the restriction laid on the fourth member of Council. But as tiie law 
 now stiinds the Indian empire has two masters, and we cannot repeal the law. There is a 
 Supreme Executive Council and a Supreme Legislative Council ; and, whetlier this be a 
 convenient arrangement or not, we cannot lawfully transfer the functions of the Supreme 
 Legislative Council to tlie Executive Council. 
 
 Mr. Prinsep j)roceed thus: " >uppose too an order from the Legislative Council should be 
 neglected or disobeyed, whence is the punishment to come ? If the Legislative Council were 
 to take the enforcement of its orders in its own hands it would soon become an Executive 
 Council, and the functions of tlie different branches of the Government would be con- 
 founded." 
 
 ■["he dano-er then is, that the functions of the executive and legislative branches of the 
 (.'overnment should be confounded, and the remedy is to jumble them together iu inextri- 
 cable confusion. That the Legislative Council should become an Executive Council would 
 be a frirditful evil, but tiiat the Executive Council should become a Legislative Council is 
 no evil at all. And how does Mr. Prinsep's proposition meet the difficulty which he has 
 raised ? Suppose that his rules are adopted : the Legislative Council wants information on 
 some question ; it applies to the Executive Council ; the Executive Council neglects to pro- 
 cure the information ; whence is punishment to come ? how is the information to be pro- 
 cured ? If the Legislative and Executive Councils differ this case might easily arise ; if, on 
 the other hand, they .ilways agree, there is an end of tiie argument about the two masters. 
 
 The right course seems to me very obvious : when Parliament gave us the power of legis- 
 lating it o-ave us also, by necessary implication, all the powers without which it is impossible 
 to leo-islate well. I sec no reason why the Legislative Council may not correspond directly 
 with the subordinate Governments and with the Law Commission ; why it may not directly 
 call for information from any public functionary ; wdiy it may not, if it is considering the 
 draft of a law, or a mihtary or a financial subject, require the attendance of tlie military or 
 financial secretary. In no government would I sacrifice substantial convenience to forms ; 
 least of all would I make such a sacrifice in a government so new as this, in a government 
 which owes nothing to ancient associations. 
 
 If, however, it be the ojjinion of gentlenieu more experienced than myself that there 
 would be an advantage in interposing the Executive Council as a mere organ of communica- 
 tion between the Legislature and other bodies, though I must own that I do not conceive that 
 the dignity of the Executive Council would be raised by such a course, and though I fear 
 that much delay and inconvenience would result from it, I will not press my objections. 
 But in that case it will be fit that the Executive Council shoidd be merely an organ of trans- 
 mission ; that its letters should be mere echoes of the communications made to it by the 
 Legislature ; and tliat it should instantly transmit to the Legislature every jiaper relating to 
 legislation which niigiit be sent to any executive department ; thus tar I am ready to go. 
 But that the Executive Council should, as Mr. Prinsep proposes, take on itself tlie greater 
 part of the business of legislation would be, I again repeat, a most reprehensible course. It 
 would be in the highest degree inexpedient ; it would be a direct violation of the Act of 
 Parliament; it w^ould be a direct violation of the latest orders received from the Court of 
 Directors; nor would there be, as far as I can perceive, a single compensating advantage to 
 set off against these objections. 
 
 In India Legislative Letter, 12 May (No. 9) 1843. 
 
 Extract IMinute by the Honourable Mr. Amos, dated 27 January 1843. 
 
 Besides questions purely legislative, numerous points have been settled in Council depend- 
 ing on legal grounds, and wjiirli arose in other departments of Government, both in the 
 judicial, revenue, general, political, military, and ecclesiastical. The fourth mendier of 
 CdMiicil has been called on to assist the Government upon various important (jucstions 
 arising in each of these departments. It may be proper here to observe, that the Advocate- 
 General, if he be a jierson possessing long experience in the administration of English law, may 
 be verv capable of advising the Council ujion tecliiiical points, in wliich they themselves per- 
 ceive difficulty, and wliere it does not require to be pointed out to them, and he may be 
 well uliU; t<j put into technical form any legislative measures upon which the Council has 
 resolved. It docs not follow from the qualifications, according to which it is presumed that 
 he is appointed, that he is versed in general principles of jurisprudence and legislation, tliongh 
 
 doubtless
 
 SliLECT COIVLMITIEE OiV INDIAN TI'URl lOlil Es. 
 
 525 
 
 doubtless this may occasionally liappou, and he may 1)C consnltcd with advantage upon such 
 matters. But tliese, I apiJrehond, constitute a small anil confined portion of the duties ot" 
 the legislative member of Council, even according to the strict interpretation of the statute. 
 But if (as till lately has been the practice) it be intended that the legislative member sluJl 
 acijualnt himself witli the genera! administration of Indian Government in all is depart- 
 ments, such an acquaintance being of unquestionable importance in many legishitive deli- 
 berations, tiien, I think, it would be preposterous to suppose that liis duties could be pro- 
 perly performed by the Advocate-General. 
 
 It is here necessary to observe, that the business of Council nuiy be thought to press 
 somewhat less heavily on the President oi' the Connnission, if the course be continued of 
 excluding the fourth member from being present at meetings of Council during the transac- 
 tion ol' the business of any other department tiian tlie legislative. This course, wliieh is in 
 strictness (juite legal, and is most consonant to tiie Act of Parliament, was adoj)ted wiien 
 Lord EUeuborough assumed the Government, tiiongh, I believe, by no means in conse(|uence 
 of the opinions or wishes of the other members of Council. Lord William lientinck and 
 Lord Auckland liave both written minutes in fiivour of the practice which has been super- 
 seded, and the Court has especially approved of that practice. There can be no doubt, I 
 think, tliat tlie new course must render the legislative member ixiuch less efficient to the 
 discharge of his peculiar duties, especially for tlie first two or three years alter liis arrival, 
 whilst in tiie departments of Government, in the deliberations of which he used to be pre- 
 sent without interfering, an immediate reference to him on, or occasional suggestions by him 
 on purely legal points, has, I am satisfied, often been found highly convenient. It may 
 perhaps be thought that the time which, according to the new coiu-se, has been saved to the 
 fotirth member from the business of Council, will not be wholly gained for the Commission. 
 For very often ihe discussion occurring on papers in other departments of Government than 
 the legislative, but which has led to some legislative measures, have, I am persuaded, obviated 
 the necessity of my making inquiries which would have consumed much more time, and 
 ■would probably have been much less satisfactory. 
 
 Ajijjfenilix. N<i 10. 
 
 Extract Minute by the Honourable IF. IF. Bird, dated 4 May 1842. 
 
 6th. The Council of India should, I am of opinion, consist, besides the Comniauder-in- In leaislative letter 
 Chief as an extraordinary member, of one military and two civil ordinary members, as at dated 12 May ' 
 present, with the addition of a member from the civil scr\-ices of Madras and Bombay, to be (^o- 9) 1843. 
 withdrawn from the Councils of those Presidencies, and to take a part, like the rest, in all 
 questions coming before it, and as a law memlier in some shajje or other cannot, I think, 
 be conveniently dispensed with, he, too, should have a voice in all matters judicial, revenue, 
 and commercial, as well as legislative. He need not, perhaps, have anything to do with 
 political and military affairs, but unless he sees and becomes acqtiainted with evervthincf 
 connected with tiie internal civil administration, he cannot possibly discharge as he oufjht his 
 legislative duties. 
 
 Extract Minute by the Honourable T. H. MaddocI;, dated 8 May 1843. 
 
 SInce the ]iassing of the Charter Act in 1833, great advantage has attended the presence In legislative letter 
 in Council of a member of the Government, competent to advise it on doubtful points of law dated 12 May 
 at the moment when they occur. Hearing and entering into sucli discussiojis as take place (^°- ^^ '®^- 
 at the Council Board, regarding proposed acts of the Legislature, he becomes thoroughly 
 informed of the views of Government, and is enabled to prepare drafts of laws with an 
 accuracy and promptitude that could hardly be expected under any other arrangement. The 
 general legislation of the Government has by this aid proceeded without communication 
 with the Law Commission, and the most important laws have been passed without any 
 reference to that body. The business of legislation would be greatly retarded if the Govern- 
 ment had to consult any one out of Council on every Act pending or in contemplation. 
 
 I entirely concur In opinion with Mr. Bird, that thi- law member of the Council of India In legislative letter, 
 shoidd be present in Council at all meetings, where matters relating to the general adminis- dated 12 May 
 tration in the home department of the Government are under discussion. (^o. 9) 1843. 
 
 Extract Minute by the Honourable Major-General Sir W. Casement, k.c.b. 
 
 It is impossible, I think, to deny, looking at all that has been done, and all that remains to In legislative letter, 
 us and to our successors to do, that a return to the old constitution of the Council, unassisted ^^**"^^^ ^'^^^ 
 by legal learning and experience, would quite unfit it for the duties it has to perform. I do ^ °' ' 
 not know, indeed, that the authorities at home have any such measure in contemplation. 
 But lest the idea should be entertained in any (piarter, I would express by firm conviction, in 
 accordance with the view taken by Lord William Bentinck's Government, that the presence 
 of a learned and judicious English lawyer as a member of the Legislative Council, is indis- 
 pensable to a right exercise of the functions of the Indian Legislature. The aid which we 
 
 0.10. 3x2 " have
 
 5'^6 
 
 Al'PENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Aiiiicii<1i.x, No. 10. 
 
 have had from such a member, and whicli will be even more necessary as the Council 
 advances to those diftioult (jiiestions which I have shown yet remain lor its consideration, 
 could onlv, m a couijiaratively very small degree, be given by one or more of the Judges of 
 the Supreme Court, to whose eiuployuieut iu that capacity there exist at the same time, as 
 has been remarked by Sir Edward Ryan in liis Minute of 2 October 1839, the strongest 
 objections, founded upon a priiici])le of very general application, and upon the wisest and 
 most enlarged views uf politicid expediency, and the constitution of human society. The 
 Advoeate-Cieneral might, to a limited extent, supply the information whicli the Council 
 would need, if it had no legal member; but the value of his advice would usually be less 
 than, under such circumstances, the Council would require. His engrossing practice, as a 
 barrister, would always be in the way of that deliberate attention to legislative measures, 
 which would be indispensably necessary to their success ; and his position in other respects 
 might be unfavourable to independent discussion, and would certainly prevent his taking part 
 in the consideration of legislative questions with such readiness and freedom as is desirable, 
 and which, I agree with the Honourable Court in thinking, will not be possessed by the 
 legislative adviser of the Council, unless he be one of their bod}-, and present if not actually 
 taking a part, not only when laws arc only in debate, but in all the deliberations of the 
 Government, political and military deliberations perhaps excepted. 
 
 I repeat, therefore, that both irom theory and from actual experience, I am strongly in favour 
 of the continuance of that constitution of the Legislative Council which gives us the valuable 
 assistance oi" an English lawyer, selected by the Home Government Irom among the pro- 
 i'ession on account ol' especial fitness; and I earnestly hope that no change will iu this par- 
 ticular be allowed to take place. 
 
 In India Legislative Letter, dated 21 December (No. 25) 1843. 
 
 Parliaiiientuiii iii- 
 (loctuin. See the 
 sccount of the Piir- 
 liauu-nt (fi lien. 4;. 
 wliirli was tlius 
 iiicknainf'(I by the 
 lawyers, in revenje 
 lor tljeir pxelusion 
 from it. — Blaek- 
 .stoiie's Coiniiienta- 
 ries, I. 177. 
 
 Extract Minute by the Honourable C. //. Cameron, dated 17 November 1843. 
 
 The Governor- General would abolish the fourth member and the Law Commission 
 together. According to his Lordship, a Parlimnentam imloctum is the proper legislature for 
 India. I shall examine his reasonings on the subject at the close of this minute ; in the 
 meantime I concur with the majority of the Council in thinking that a member possessing a 
 knowledge of law and jurisprudence is necessary to make iq> an efficient legislatiu'e ; and I 
 further agree with the majority, that "he should have (I quote from Mr. Bird's minute of 
 4 May 1843) a voice in all matters judicial, revenue, and commercial, as well as legislative." 
 "He need not, perhaps," Mr. Bird continues, "have anything to do with political and mili- 
 tary affairs, but unless he sees and becomes acquainted with everything connected with the 
 internal civil adniinislration, he cannot possibly discharge as he ought his legislative duties." 
 
 The lour member may perhaps be able to discharge his legislative duties by having all the 
 jiapcrs on the subject transfei'rcd to the legislative department as soon as any legislative 
 proposition is made upon it, but undoulitedly it would he a nuich more convenient arrange- 
 ment tl)at he should assist at the deliberations of the Council n]K)u all matters of internal 
 administration. 
 
 An instance lately occuiTcd which illustrates the inconvenience of the present arrange- 
 ment. A draft of a despatch to the Court of Directors was jirepared, requesting that tlio 
 opinions of the Attorne}' and Solicitor General, and of the law officers of the Company, 
 might be taken ui)on a number of extremely important and extremely difficult questions of 
 constiiutional law arising out of the late Charter Act. 
 
 The secretary sup])()sing this despatch to be in the legislative department, sent the draft to 
 me, and as 1 diffcreil from some of tlic opinions whicli seemed to be implied in the draft, 
 and was also desirous of giving what assistance I could to the home authorities in the solu- 
 tion of" the (jiiestions raised, 1 wrote a minute which I intended to accom])any the despatch. 
 It was decided, liowever, that the despatch was in the political, and not in the legislative 
 department, and consequently my minute could not be admitted as a number in it. i da 
 not suppose I shall be accused of setting up myself as an authority upon Indian constitu- 
 tional law, when I say that I am convinced that the Attorney and Solicitor General and the 
 Comjiany's Council would have been glad, before making up their minds upon these questions, 
 to have seen them discussed by a lawyer, whose jiositimi hasnaturidly induced him to bestow 
 a good deal of reflection up(jn them. 
 
 I would give, then, to tlie fi)urtli member of Council complete means of infoi-mation upon 
 all matters, revenue and judicial, as well as legislative, and acccs.s to the debates of the 
 lOducatiou Council for that jjurpose, but I would not cast \x\wn him the responsibility wdiich 
 belongs to the othei- councillors in revenue and judicial mattert, lest he should not have 
 the time necessary f<)r matin-ing legislative measures ; I would make liis connexion with the 
 revenue and judicial dei)artnient entirely subsidiary to his legislative duties. 
 
 ExTiiAcT ^Minute by the Governor-General, dated 25 November 1843. 
 
 Mr. Cameron appears to be under the impression that a gentleman who has been called 
 to the bar in England must, if he should be appointed legal member of tlie Council, be 
 
 peculiarly
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERUITORIES. 527 
 
 peculiarly competent to legislate for India; and that witliont the presence of sucli legal Appendix, No. 
 member tlic Legislative ('ouncil would lie a " PdiHuiKciitnm mdorti/iii." 
 
 In trutli, however, if any nienilier of the Council l)e peeuhariy entitled to the term 
 "inJorf^/s,' it is rather the English barrister who knows nothing of India, than the old 
 servant of the Indian Government who has lor .'U) or 40 years been actiuaintcd with the 
 people, and with the various branches of the administration. It is for statesmen to decide 
 upon the objects of legislation; it is well for them to be enabled to avail themselves of the 
 aid of barristers in framing law.s, but the proper function of a barrister is to know the law, 
 
 and to explain it. . i v n 1 
 
 Any sound .lawyer of established reputation can afiord to the (Tovcrnnient ot India all the 
 aid it can require in legislative as well as in legal matters, without being made a member of 
 the Council ; and certainly there is nothing in Mr. Cameron's minute to eliange my previous 
 opinion that all such aid as is required can be more conveniently rendered by a barrister in 
 the position of Advocate-General, than in that of member of Council. 
 
 10. 
 
 Extract Minute by the Honourable JV. W. Bird, dated December 184.3. 
 
 5. I NOW broadly state it to be my opinion that no man, let his talents be what they may, 
 1 whether he be a member of Council or a Law Commissioner, is qualified to legislate for 
 
 5. 
 
 and whether he be a member of Council or a Law Commissioner, is qi 
 India unless he takes a part in all matters judicial, revenue, and commercial, as well as 
 legislative, and has the opjiortunity of becoming practically acquainted with the civil 
 administration of the country. I draw no invidious comparisons between members of 
 Council and Law Connnissioners, but this I say, and it is the result of considerable expe- 
 rience of both, that so long as either of them see nothing of what is going on, and take 
 no part in the general Government, they cannot possess the local knowledge and experience 
 necessary to qualify them for discharging as tliey ought tlieir legislative duties. 
 
 In India Legislative Letter, 16 March (No. 6) 1844. 
 
 (No. 1.) 
 
 Extract India Legislative Consultations, 16 March 1844. 
 
 Minute by the Right Honourable the Governor- General, dated Benares, 18 February 1844. 
 
 The Court of Directors, in their letter dated the 29th November 1843, have intimated 
 their " desire that the presence of the fourth member of Council may not be restricted to 
 meetings held for the purpose of passing laws and regidations, " but have at the same time 
 cautioned us to bear in mind, that at such meetings only is he entitled to a voice at our pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 It is impossible to regai-d this otherwise than as a mere expression of the opinion and wish 
 of the Court. If the words used could be regarded as conveying a ''direction," by virtue of 
 such direction the fourth member of Council would become entitled to sit at meetings not 
 held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations; but the last Charter Act expressly , 
 provides that tlie fourth member of Council shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the Council Vq '- -. ' '^' ^' 
 except at meetings thereof for making lavjrs and regulations, therefore any such "direction" ' " - ~— - 
 given by the Court would be altogether invalid, because inconsistent with the Act of Parlia- 
 ment, from which alone the Court derive tlieir authority. 
 
 The Council of India, as established by the Act of Parliament, is as much a part of the 
 constitution of India as the Court of Directors, and it is the duty of the Council to guard 
 with jealousy its rights, to resist all infringement of its powers, and above all to treat as 
 utterly null every direction which, if obeyed, would change its composition. 
 
 Considering, however, that the Court can only have intended to convey an intimation of 
 their opinion and of their wish, and not to send a direction which they are not by law com- 
 petent to give, we may properly show our respect for the opinion of the Court by canying 
 into effect their wish that the fourth member of Council should sit at meetings of the Council 
 not held for the purpose of making laws and regulations in as far as it may appear that his 
 presence may not be injurious to the public service ; but it must at all times be borne in 
 mind that above all things secrecy in Council and promptitude of action are essential to the 
 successful conduct of public affairs in India, and it nuist also be understood that any indi- 
 vidual member of the Council may at any time, if he shall see fit, require that any person 
 shall withdraw from the Council who is not entitled to sit therein by the Act of Parliament. 
 
 (signed) ElleiiboroHgh. 
 
 0.10, 3x3
 
 V2.S 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPOirr FROM THC 
 
 Api.eiidii;, No. 10. 
 
 ^ourt of Directors' 
 stter, dated 29 No- 
 ember 1843, re- 
 ;arding the fourtli 
 nember of Council. 
 
 (No. 2.) 
 Minute by the Honourable TF. IF. Bird, dated 24 February 1844. 
 
 I HAA'E seen the Minute of the Governor-general, dated the 18th instant, on the letter 
 from the Honourable the Court of Directors, intimating their desire that the presence of the 
 fourtli member of Council may not be restricted to meetings held for the pvirpose of passing 
 laws and regulations, ard reminding us at the same time, that at such meetings only is he 
 entitled to a voice in our proceedings. 
 
 Tiie intimation from the Honourable Court has confessedly been made in consequence of 
 the opinion expressed here, and by no means more strongly tiian myself, regarding the unfit- 
 ness for exercising legislative powers of those who see nothing of the internal administration 
 of the country. I'his unfitness, after long observation, lias struck me so forcibly, that I have 
 not hesitated to ascribe to it the difterences of opinion which liave almost uniformly been 
 found to exist between the Government and the Law Commissioners ou almost every legisla- 
 tive project whicli has come under discussion ; and I continue to think it absolutely neces- 
 sarj', for tlie full efficienc}- of the fourth member of Council, that he should attend not 
 merely the legislative meetings, but all meetings at which the civil administration of India 
 may be bronglit under consideration. 
 
 Witii these views, and in deference to the wishes of the Honourable the Court of Direc- 
 tors communicated in reply to our own representations, I would suggest that the fourth 
 member of Council be summoned to attend all meetings in the Home Department, and that 
 the papers connected with that department be regularly circulated for his perusal in common 
 with the otlier membei's. 
 
 In regard to his being required to witlidraw at any time, I do not think that any indi- 
 vidual member shoidd have the power of enforcing such a requisition without tlie concurrence 
 of the other members, but he may propose his withdrawal, and the question must be deter- 
 mined, as in all other cases, by the voice of the Council at large. 
 
 (signed) IF. W. Bird. 
 
 lourt's letter re- 
 arding the fourth 
 rdiiiary member 
 f Council, and his 
 re?ence in Council 
 t consultations not 
 n legislative sub- 
 lets. 
 
 (No. 3.) 
 Minute by the Honourable T. H. Maddock, dated 26 February 1844. 
 
 If not absolutely necessary, it is, I think, highly desirable that the fourth ordinary 
 member should be generally present in Council at all our deliberations on subjects connected 
 with the internal administration of the country, and we sliall, I conceive, sufficiently meet the 
 expressed wishes of the Honourable Court by summoning Mr. Cameron to attend and be 
 present at tiie Council Board during the proceedings of Government in the Home as well 
 as in the Legislative Department. It appears quite unnecessary to require the attendance 
 of the fourth ordinary member at those meetings of the Council which are devoted to the 
 consideration of military and political questions ; and it may be considered objectionable in 
 principle that, being an irres])onsible party, he should be allowed to be present at times when 
 the Government may be deliberating on questions of foreign policy of war or of peace, or on 
 any matters requiring secresy. 
 
 If the attendance of the fourth ordinary member is limited, as here proposed, I can hardly 
 contemplate the ])08sible occurrence of the necessity for so unpleasant a measure as that of 
 desiring him to withdraw. 
 
 The iinly objection that can be made to Mr. Bird's recommendation, that all papers in the 
 Home Department should be sent to the fourtli ordinary member for his perusal before they 
 are considered at the Council table, is the additional delay which will attend the circulation 
 of the ])apers, and that may be avoided by arrangements to ensure promptitude in the circu- 
 lation of such pajiers as require dispatch. 
 
 (signed) T. H. Maddock. 
 
 (No. 4.) 
 
 Minute by the Right Honourable the Governor-General, dated 28tli February 1844. 
 
 Inasmuch jis the fourth member of Council is not entitled by Act of Parliament to sit in 
 Council, excci)t at meetings thereof for the making of laws, it must of necessity be in the 
 power of any member of tiie Council to desire that the finirth member should withdraw 
 from any Council not held (or that object, that is, to require the due observance of the Act 
 of Parliament. It may very possibly never be deemed necessary by any member of the 
 Council to exercise this his undoubted privilege ; but in a minute referring to the law, it 
 was necessary clearly to state what the law is, and to guard jealously all the privileges of 
 those who are alone entitled on all occasions to sit and vote in the Council of India. 
 
 (signed) Ellenboroxigh,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN Ti:i{ I?ITORIi:s. 
 
 529 
 
 (No. 5.) " 
 
 From the Government of India to the Ilonoiirable C. H. Cameron, dated Council Chamber, 
 
 4 March 1844. 
 
 Honourable Sir, 
 We arc of opinion that a more extensive knowledge than you arc at jiresent enalilcd to 
 obtain of the revenue and judicial administration of the country, woidd tend to facilitate tlie 
 performance of your duties as a Legislative Councillor: and we propose, sl)ould you concur 
 with us in this opinion, to coniniiuiicatc to you such more important pa])ers connected with 
 those two branches of the Civil Government as may seem to be calculated to afford you 
 valuable information with respect to its details. 
 
 We likewise propose to request your attendance in the Council Avhen important matters 
 connected with the revenue and judicial administration may be under consideration. You 
 must be aware that the matters which come before tiie Council even in the Civil Depart- 
 ments generally press for early, if not immediate decision, and that any arrangement 
 intended to facilitate your acquisition of a knowledge of the details of the administration 
 must be so guai-ded as not to diminish that ]jromptitude of action which is essential to the 
 conduct of affairs in India. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) Ellenhorouyh. 
 W. W. Bird. 
 Will. Casement. 
 T. H. Maddock. 
 
 (No. 6.) 
 
 From the Honourable C. H. Cameron to the Governor-General in Council, 
 
 dated 7 March 1844. 
 
 Right Honourable Lord and Honourable Sirs, 
 
 I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 4th instant. In that 
 letter you inform me that you are of opinion that a more extensive knowledge than I 
 am at present enabled to obtain of the revenue and judicial administration of the country 
 would lead to facilitate the performance of my duties as a Legislative Councillor ; and that 
 you propose, should I concur with you in this ojiinion, to communicate to me such more 
 important papers connected with those two branches of the Civil Government as may seem 
 to be calculated to afford me valuable information with respect to its details. 
 
 In answer, I beg to state, tiiat I do entirely concur in the opinion you have expressed, 
 and that I shall be happy to have sucli papers as you have described communicated to me. 
 
 You fiirther inform me, that you propose to request my attendance in the Council, when 
 important matters connected with the revenue and judicial administration may be under 
 consideration. 
 
 I shall most readily attend as fourth member of Council at any meetings of the Council at 
 which you may think my attendance can be advantageous to the public service. 
 
 With respect to the arrangements intended to fiicilitate my acquisition of a knowledge of 
 the details of the administration, I have no doubt you will take care that they shall be as 
 effectual for that purpose as is consistent with the due performance of your own executive 
 functions. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 (signed) C. H. Cameron. 
 
 In India Legislative Letter, 15 July (No. 14) 1850. 
 
 That part of the last Charter Act which relates to the constitution of the Government 
 of India, contains the following provision : 
 
 " And that the fourth ordinary member of the Council shall from time to time be appointed 3 & 4 Will. 4, c. 86, 
 from amongst persons who shall not be servants of the said Company by the said Court of s. 40. 
 Directors, subject to the approbation of His Majesty, to be signified in writing bj- his lloyal 
 sign manual, countersigned by the President of the said Board ; provided that such last 
 mentioned member of Council shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the said Council, except 
 at meetings thereof for making laws and regulations." 
 
 The Honomable the Court of Directors, in communicating their views on the above Act, 
 remarked as follows : — 
 
 Para. 19. " While thus considering the deliberative part of your duties, our attention is Publicletter (No. 
 necessarily led to one important alteration which the Act has made in the constitution of the 44) ot 1834, dated 
 Supreme Council. We allude to the appointment of the fourth ordinary member of the ^^ December. 
 Council, as described in the 40th clause. 
 
 0.10. 3x4 20. " In
 
 530 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 AlJiiemlis, No. 10. 
 
 Minute by the 
 Honourable Mr. 
 Macaulay, dated 
 Ootacamuud, 
 27 June 1834. 
 
 20. " In the first ami simplest view of this remarkable provision, the presence and assist- 
 ance of the i'ourth councillor must be regarded as a substitute for th;it sanction of the 
 Supreme Court of Judicature, which has liitherto been necessary to the validity of regula- 
 tions aftecting the inhabitants of the Presidencies, which imder the new system will no longer 
 be required. It is, however, evident that the view of the Legislature extended beyond the 
 mere object of providing such a substitute. 
 
 21. " The concurrence of the fourth member of Council may be wanting to a law, and the 
 law may be good still, even his absence at tlie time of enactment will not vitiate the law ; 
 but Parliament manifestly intended tiiat the whole of his time and attention, and all the 
 resources of knowledge or ability which he may possess, should be employed in promoting 
 the due discharge of the le;;islative functions of the Council. He has, indeed, no pre- 
 eminent control over the duties of tliis department, but he is peculiarly charged with them in 
 all their ramifications. His will naturally be the principal share, not only in the task of 
 giving shape and connexion to the several laws as they pass, but also in the mighty 
 labour of collecting all that local information, and calling into view all those general con- 
 siderations wiiich belong to each occasion, and of thus enabling the Council to embody the 
 abstract and essential principles of good government in regulations adapted to the peculiar 
 habits, character, and institutions uf the vast and infinitely diversified people under their 
 sway. 
 
 22. " It will be observed that the fourth member is declared not to be entitled to sit or 
 vote in the Council, except at meetings for the making of laws and regulations. 
 
 23. "We do not, however, perceive that you are precluded by anything in the law from 
 availing yourselves of his presence witliout his vote on any occasion on which you may think 
 it desirable. And in many, if not all of the subjects on which your deliberations may turn, 
 an intimate knowledge of what passes in Council will be of essential service to him in the 
 discharge of his legislative functions. Unless he is in habits of constant communication and 
 entire confidence with his colleagues, unless he is familiar with the details of internal admi- 
 nistration, with the grounds on which the Government acts, and with the information by 
 which it is guided, he cannot possibly sustain his part in the legislative conferences or mea- 
 sures, with the knowledge, readiness, and independence essential to a due performance of his 
 duty." 
 
 The Honourable Mr. Macaulay, on the occasion of taking his seat as fourth ordinary 
 member of Council, recorded the following minute respecting his position in Council : 
 
 "I feel it to be my duty on entering upon my new functions to bring under the notice of 
 his Lordship in Coiuicil the great difficulties of the situation in which I am placed. The 
 clause of the Act of Parliament which defines my powers is so worded, that until it is 
 explained by some competent authority I shall be constantly in doubt as to the course which 
 1 oufht to pursue. I shall scarcely ever be able to act without an apprehension that I may 
 be intermeddling in what does not concern me, or to refrain from acting without an appre- 
 hension that I may be shrinking from labour and responsibility which it is my duty to 
 encounter. 
 
 2. " As I was ;i member of the House of Commons and Secretary to the Commissioners 
 for tiie Afiiiirs of India (hiring the year IS.S.S, I should have been inexcusable if I had not 
 o-ivcn the closest attentinn to the ]irovisions of the Act. It may be thought therefore that I 
 ought to be able to furnish explanations instead of being forced to ask for them. I hope 
 that in my own vindication, and without the least disrespect to any branch of the Legislature, 
 I may be permitted to mention what is now matter of history, that the words of which 
 I desire to have an explanation were not in the Bill Avhcn it passed the House of Commons, 
 but were added at a very late stage ; I think on the third reading in the House of Lords. 
 
 " Tiie words to w hicli I refer are those : ' Provided tiiat such last mentioned member of 
 Council shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the said Council, except at meetings thereof for 
 making laws and regulations.' 
 
 .'5. " India, then, is under the government of two Councils, differently comi)Osed, the 
 one a legislative, the other an executive body. It seems to me that son)ething more 
 than the words which I have quoted was required to define the provinces of these two 
 authorities. During the last 60 vcars many constitutions have been framed in Europe and 
 in America, and I will venture to say tiiat there is not one of those constitutions in which 
 it has not been thougiit necessary to draw tiie line between the functions of the executive 
 and those of the legislative body witli a degree of care and precision very different from 
 what is to be found in the words which I have quoted. 
 
 4. "And the reason is obvi(nis. The line which scjiaratcs legislative from executive 
 proceedings is not a natural but an arbitrary line. It is diHi.'reiitly drawn in different 
 countries at the same time, and in tlie same country at different times. In England the 
 declaring of war is an executive act. By the constitutions of some other countries it is a 
 legislative act. In England, at present, the executive jiower can pardon any criminal. In 
 the time of the Commonwealth the Protector could not pardon murder. An Act of the 
 Legislature was necessary. Indeed the history of the East India Company furnishes an 
 excellent ilhislratidn of my meaning. It was long disjiulcd among lawyers whether the 
 exclusive commercial privileges once enjoyed by that body could be legally conferred by the 
 executive power, or whether an Act of the Legislature was necessary. In Elizabeth's time 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERIUTOIIIES. 
 
 531 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. 
 
 the doctriiu; t'avuiiniblc to tlie t'X( ditive power was generally atliuitted. Since tlie Ivcvolutlon 
 it has been almost universally held that an Act ot" Parliament alone could give a mono])oly 
 to any person or corporation. It would be easy to multiply instances. But those wiiicli 
 I have given ai'c sufficient to sliow that the line between legislative and executive pro- 
 ceedings is vurv difi'oreutlv drawn in different t>livees and in ditl'erent Uiies. 
 
 5. " Where then is it to be di-awn in the Indian Government ? Tiie Act of Parliament 
 constitutes an Executive and a Legislative Council. But it makes no partition of power 
 between them. Hitherto no doubts could arise, because there was a single body which pos- 
 sessed the whole power, legislative and executive. L'nder the new system doubts will arise 
 every day, unless something be done to set them at I'est. 
 
 6. "In the absence of all explanatory words it seems not unnatural to suppose the inten- 
 tion of the Legislature to have been, that the partition of power in the Government of India 
 should be analogous tu that which exists in the Government of England : that the Executive 
 Council should exercise the same prerogatives wliich at home belong to the Crown, and that 
 an Act of the Legislative Council should be necessary in all cases in wliich, at home, an Act 
 of Parliament is required. If we ])Ut this sense in the clause, and I am unable to find any 
 more probable sense, it follows that the army cannot be augmented in time of peace, that 
 taxes cannot be imposed even for local purposes, that money cannot be borrowed on the public 
 faith of the Indian empire without a vote of tlie Legislative Council. No state prisoner can 
 be detained in custody without such a vote. No treaty with any neighbouring power, stipu- 
 lating for any payment of money on onr part, will be binding without such a vote. It is 
 plain that, if this rule be adopted, the Legislative Council will exercise in India, as the Par- 
 liament exercises in F.ngland, a control over almost all the proceedings of the Executive 
 Government. Though the fourth member may have no vote on a question, lor example, of 
 going to war, yet he will have a vote when the question is about furnishing the sinews of 
 war, and his opposition in the question of sujjply may prevent the Executive Council from 
 carrying Its purposes into effect, or may force the Governor- General to have recourse to his 
 extraordinary authority. 
 
 8. " Whether this be or be not the sense in which the words of the Act are to be under- 
 stood, I am altogether in doubt. I wish these doubts to be submitted to the Court of 
 'Directors ; and until an explanation shall arrive from home, I shall leave it to the Governor- 
 General and the other membeis of the Council to determine what share of the public busi- 
 ness thej' wdl assign to me, neither intruding myself into any deliberations from which they 
 think that I ought to be excluded, nor declining any labom-, or any responsibility, which 
 they may invite me to share with them." 
 
 The Governor-Genei-al (Lord William Bentinck) recorded his views on the subject as 
 follows : — 
 
 " In reference to Mr. Macaulay's minute of the 27th June, respecting his own position in Minute by the Go- 
 Council, I feel it to be imnecessary for me, even were I competent to the task, to offer any vernor-General, 
 opinion upon the legal and constitutional difficulties he has so clearly described, and which ""*''" Ootacamund, 
 can only be solved by the authorities to whom they have been addressed. 
 
 2. " There is, however, another view of this subject, precisely bearing upon the same 
 point, that is much less complicated and theoretical, and more within the reach of my humble 
 judgment, which seems to me quite as deserving of consideration as the questions proposed 
 by Mr. Macaulay. 
 
 3. " I shall first assume, what Indeed Is my opinion, that the new Act has not altered the 
 character of the Council, that it is one and the same for executive and legislative purposes ; 
 that in its executive capacity It can make peace and war, raise money, and do all that It has 
 heretofore done, without requiring the Interference of the same Council, in Its legislative 
 capacity, to give validity to its acts, and that the only restrictions imposed upon its power of 
 legislation are, that in making laws it must have the advice of the fourth member, and that 
 no law can pass unless three ordinary members be present at the Council ; and it is further 
 directed, that the fourth member shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the Council except 
 at meetings for making laws and rt'gulatlons, which must mean that he shall take no part ; 
 perhaps that he shall not even be present. 
 
 4. " It is this particular point, the exclusion of the fourth member from the ordinary sit- 
 tings ol' the Council, to which I wish particidarly to advert as detracting ver^- much f inm his 
 usefulness, if not incapacitating him from the very important duties confided to him by the 
 Legislature Mr. jNIacaulay has never been I'l India, and he and !iis successors, like the 
 greater part of the past, and probably of future Governors and Governor-Generals, is a 
 stranger. As a stranger to the country for which he Is to play the principal ])art In making 
 laws and regulations, he certainly may give most useful advice to the Council In the drawing 
 up of their laws, so that they sliall contain nothing either i-epugnant to the laws of lingland, 
 or at variance with the enlightened spirit of the age. ^Vll this knowledge, which the fourth 
 member may be supjiosed peculiarly to possess, will be highly useful in giving ?implicitv 
 and clearness to our laws, in rendering them more i-lillosophical, and therefore better and 
 wiser, and more likely to harmonise with the feelings of the distant races which we have to 
 govern. But all this is the mere theory of the art which he is come to exercise. \\ here 
 is he to gain his practical knowledge of the state of society, of its manners, its fcellnss, and 
 
 10. 3 Y iis 
 
 SlJuly 1834.
 
 532 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. its customs? How is he to discover what there is to remedy, to reform, or to preserve ? 
 
 How is he to discover the abuses or tlie imperfectiou of our administration in any of its 
 
 branches, revenue, judicial, or pohce ? How is he to become acquainted with the effect of 
 the existing laws and institutions upon the immense population ? He must learn all this 
 somewhere, or he must be a poor legislator ; from the people themselves, the main objects 
 of his care, he will learn nothing; they are not consulted, and hitherto they have had no 
 means of making themselves heard. With them he can have little intercourse, and to the 
 oreater part of the European residents any correct information upon all these details is as 
 inaccessible as to himself; he can only learn his lesson in the same way that all Governors, 
 who have been strangers, have done before him, by following day by day the reports of all 
 the functionaries of the empire, and by hearing in every week's consultatious, not an 
 insulated opinion only, which might be gained elsewhere, but the general discussion of all 
 questions, and the results of the long experience of the able and responsible men who 
 compose the Council. The proceedings of the Government contain the only real record of 
 present life, and of tlie actually passing condition of India ; although I must admit that these 
 must remain but a very imperfect index either to the feelings of the people, or to the effect 
 of our laws and regulations, until the natives themselves can be more mixed in their own 
 government, and become i-esponsible advisers and partners in the administration. In short, 
 I cannot but think that the inti'oduction of this restriction, as it seems to have been a late 
 and sudden act, was not well considered ; for it cannot surely be advisable, at the same time 
 that you declare the Council, as hitherto constituted, to be lame and insuliicient for the pur- 
 poses of legislation, thus to blindfold the single guide appointed to conduct them in their 
 way. 
 
 5. " I might stop here, but I will beg leave to say further, that in my judgment the 
 exclusion in question operates as prejudicially upon tlie general Executive Government, as it 
 does upon the same Council in its legislative capacity. I have upon another occasion sug- 
 gested the advantage to our judicial administration of introducing into our superior courts, 
 strangers, not mere English lawyers, but men well acquainted with the science and philo- 
 sophy of law, who might look into the practice of our courts, and into the actual working 
 of our regulations in the ilofussil, unbiassed by ancient prejudice, or the exclusiveness of 
 the civil service, and who might be able to point out how the modern improvements of 
 Europe could be brought to bear upon tiie Indian system. In like manner I feel about 
 the Council. Tiiere has been created a new appointment which will always be filled, it is 
 to be presumed, by a man of the first talent, and of the highest attainments. Why cast 
 away the prodigious benefit to be derived from such an adviser in a Council of four only, to 
 whom such miglity interests are entrusted ? It has happened that the Council of India, 
 since i(s formation, has been as much occupied with the execution of the provisions of the 
 new Bill and with legislation as by other matters, and I have therefore felt it my duty 
 always to call for the assistance of a full Council ; and I have considered myself peculiarly 
 fortunate in tiie occasion that has placed Mr. Ironside's services at my disposal ; I am satis- 
 fied there is not a member of the Council that would not readily testify to the very great 
 value of the aid we have derived from the fourtli member in the decision of the many diffi- 
 cult and important questions that have come before us. In the course of these considtations, 
 I have felt the difficulty of exactly interpreting the meaning of the clause respecting the 
 fourth meinlier's duties. When and where does legislation begin? In every Comicil, par- 
 ticularly in the Political Department, questions have come before us appertaining to inter- 
 national law, reciprocal jurisdiction, claims for fugitives, &c. ; and again, in establishing an 
 administration, comprehending the whole internal management, both in the Mysore and 
 Coorg, both countries not yet within the pale of our territories ; do such subjects come 
 within the province of the fourth Councillor's interposition ? There are many representations 
 and references to each Council in the otiier departments, save the military, upon which the 
 question may, and does often arise, whether some legal enactment should nut take place. 
 Is it at this stage of the deliheration, or when the framing of the law has been determined, 
 that we are to call in the fourth member? 'I'hi;re will be endless doubts u])on this point, 
 and I will take the liberty of stating an opinion as to a result which will not have been in 
 the contemplation of the inventor of this e.xcluslon, that with this latitude of construction, 
 as Governor-General, if he so fancies, will have it in his power to make a mere cypher of 
 this important personage." 
 Political letter to Co|)ies of the two foregoing minutes were forwarded for the consideration of the Honour- 
 
 dated 9 Aiicust ^^^^ the Court of Directors, who, without taking any notice of tlie particular point referred, 
 lb34. viz., " the exclusion of the fourth member from the ordinary sittings of the Council,'' for- 
 
 . . , ^. , ^^ ... ,. .,„„_ , ,^. - , warded the oijinion in the negative of the law officers, on the 
 
 LetjiBlative letter (No. 1) of 183o, dated 27 February: .■ n • ' ■• • i i fl 1 ^ i • ^i 
 
 "fhe lourth meinbor of Council nmy hav,- no vote *«l>""'ing question raised by the remarks entered m the margin, 
 
 on a question, for ifxainjile, of war, yet lie will have contained in Air. Macaulay's minute : 
 
 a vote when the question is ubout furnishing the " Whether the (iovernor-( Jencral of India has tlie power of 
 
 8ine\ys of war; anil his opposition on tlie question of overruling the oi.iniMii , if the majority of the Council of India, 
 
 supply may prevent the Exeeulive Council from ear- • ., » • .i i • i i- i /• i • u • i 
 
 ' ;.o.,,L„ ,.;„»„, o- . I- .1 <• in a matter strictly eijislative, aiu of making, altcruiii", repeal- 
 
 rj'iiif; its purpose into ettect, or may torce the (lover- . i- i i i • i /■ • 
 
 nor-Cieneral to have recourse to his extraordinary "'S' »'' s"spendmg laws and regulations, and of uiiposuig any 
 
 authority." tax or duty of his own authority." 
 
 Ill the course of the discussions that took place in 1835, as to the general ])rinciples on 
 
 which rules for regulating the legislative proceedings of the Government of India ought 
 
 Minute by Mr. to be framed, Mr. Prinsep considered the draught of the standing orders prepared by 
 
 U Tune' ^'"'^'^ ^^^' •^^'**^''"'=^y *" ^'^ defective, and suggested the expediency of keeping distinct the func- 
 
 lions
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 533 
 
 tions of tlie Legislative and Executive Council. It is not necessary to enter here Mr. I'rin- Legislative Cons., 
 sep's propositions, as Mr. Macaulay, in the following reply, lias embodied ihem fully. (^ J"'y 1835, 
 
 "Mr. Prinsep proposes that all the drafts of laws which are sent u]) by the subordinate jyT- ' . j , m m . 
 Governments, shall, before they are laid before the Legislative Council, be considered by the caulav, iliited 13 
 Executive Council in the department to which they belong; tliat the Executive Council may .fune." ' 
 amend them ; that the Executive Council may frame and may discuss within itself' draits of Legislative Cons, 
 laws, and then submit them to the Legislative Council; that all correspondence with all sub- ?x'"'{,\^^^' 
 ordinate authorities, with the Law Commission, and with the local Governments, shall be ^ "' 
 carried on through the Executive Council only. 
 
 " Now, if it be meant merely to put the Executive Council as an organ of communication 
 between the Legislative Conned and other authorities, if the consideration of drafts by the 
 Executive Council is to be merely formal, if the letters written on matters connected with 
 legislation, by order of the Executive Council, are to contain merely what the Legislative 
 Coiuicll has directed, and if the answers are to be subnutted to the Legislative Council for 
 orders, though 1 think such a system in the highest degree cumbrous and inconvenient, yet, 
 if persons more versed in Indian affairs than 1 am conceive that there is any advantage in it, 
 I will not ojipose it. I am at a loss to conceive what benefit it can produce, unless delay, 
 perplexity, and the multiplication of unnecessary letters of transmission be benefits. 
 
 "But 1 do not understand this to be Mr. Prinsep's meaning ; I understand him to propose 
 that the Executive Council of India shall be competent to perform all acts incident to legisla- 
 tion, except the final passing of a law, I have not the smallest hesitation in saying, that thi^ 
 proposition is in the highest degree pernicious, and directly opposed to the spirit and letter 
 both of the Act of Parliament, and of the instructions of the Court of Directors. 
 
 " If Mr. Prinsep's resolution be adopted, a draft of a law of the highest importance may 
 be sent to Calcutta by the Governor of Fort St. George in Council ; the Executive Council 
 may have this draft before them for a considerable time in the Judicial or Financial 
 Department ; long minutes may be recorded in it by the Governor-General, and by the three 
 senior members of Council ; fresh information may be called for ; circulars may be sent all 
 over the country ; a copious corres]3ondence may take j)lace with the Madras Government ; 
 references mny be made to the Law Commission, and answeis received ; this may go on for 
 six months, and during all this time the fourth member of Council, sent to this country 
 expressly for the purpose of legislation, solemnly reminded by the Court in their late 
 despatch, that though all the members of the Council are entitled to propose and discuss 
 laws, his time and facidties are to be peculiarly devoted to that department of public business, 
 considered both here and at home as especially responsible for the manner in which the work 
 of legislation is carried on, could have no right to see a single paper, or to hear a single dis- 
 cussion, and would certainly be precluded from voting oa any question, and from recording 
 any opinion. 
 
 '•' By the kindness of the late and present Governor-General and of my colleagues, I have 
 been permitted to see every public document, and to assist at every deliberation. But this 
 may not always be the case. A Governor-General may be on bad terms with the fourth 
 member of Council. Such a Governor-General would be borne out by the letter of the Act 
 of Parliament in excluding the fourth member from all knowledge of what was doins; in the 
 Executive Departments of the Government. M r. Prinsep proposes to transfer to theExecu- 
 tive Departments half the business of legislation. If this course be adopted, it will bo in the 
 power of the Governor-General to oust the fourth member of Council from the greater part 
 of his legislative functions. 
 
 " I deny both the expediency and the legality of such an arrangement; I deny the expe- 
 diency of admitting a person to vote on the passing of a law, who has not been admitted to 
 take part in all the preceding discussions on it. I deny the legal right of the Council of 
 India to exclude the fourth member of Council while they are deliberating on a draft of a 
 law in the Financial or Judicial Department. I claim for myself and my successors a legal 
 right to record an opinion and to give a vote, not merely on the final passing of a law, but on 
 every question which may arise respecting a law in any of its stages. The Council, I trust, 
 will not decide against this claim without a reference home. 
 
 " I have done my best to make out the reasons on which Mr. Prinsep grounds his propo- 
 sition. But I am quite at a loss to understand them. He says that tiie public authorities 
 must not be taught to believe that they have two masters. That question is for higher 
 authority than ours. Parliament has thought fit to confide the executive government of 
 India to one body, and the supreme legislative power to another body. If this be an evil, 
 let us apply to the home authorities to rid us of it ; indeed, we have already done so. The 
 Council at Ootacamund agreed in recommending to the Court of Directors that proper 
 measures should be taken for reiuoving the restriction laid on the fourth member of Council. 
 But as the law now stands, the Indian empire has two masters, and we cannot rc])eal the 
 law. There is a Supreme Executive Council and a Supreme Legislative Council ; and 
 whether this be a convenient arrangement or not, we cannot lawfully transfer the functions 
 of the Supreme Legislative Council to the Executive Council." 
 
 Further discussions on the above points were avoided by the Government of India deter- 
 mining not to consider the Legislative Council as distinct from the Executive Council, but 
 that there should be but one Council, with a separate Legislative Department ; the fourth 
 member being understood to have a legal right to be present in any department where laws, 
 or matters immediately connected w ith laws, might be under discussion. 
 
 0.10. 3 Y a The
 
 534 
 
 APPENDIX TO iiEl'ORT FROM THE 
 
 Leeislative letter 
 i^^o. 3) of 1835, 
 dated S Julv. 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. The above resolutiou was communicated to the Court of Directors, who, without 
 
 . r,c^- , . 1 ^. . . takins any notice of the determination come to by the 
 1 ptrielativp letter fNo. 2) of lS3o, dated 24 August, „ => "^^ i- t t ■ i i ^u ■ i c 1.1. 
 
 i^egisiaine leiier (.i'u. / , o Government of India, simply expressed their approval ot the 
 
 Legisktive letter (No. 4) of 1837, ilated 1 March. standing orders. 
 
 Almost simultaneously with the above communication, the Cxovernment of India, in reply- 
 ing to the Court's public despatcli of the 10th December 1834 (entered at the commence- 
 ment of this paper), made the following intimation : — 
 
 Para. 12. " Feeling the full force of your Honourable Court's observations on the expecta- 
 tions with which the situation of fourth member of our Council 
 
 ^ ., . , , ,-. .,, r,oo- 1 4„in, . ,f was created, and entirely coinciding in the opinion expressed in 
 
 Leeislative letter (No. 3 of 183.3, dated 31 August. i' ^i 1 . i • 1 i. u . xi 
 
 p. 316 Duties and powers of the fourth ordinary these paragraplis ot the adv.antage wliich must resiiltto the 
 member. legislative utility of that member, by his being intimately 
 
 acquainted with the whole of the executive business of the 
 Council, we are happy in being able to report that we had anticijiated the recommendation 
 made in the 23d jjaragraph of this des]>atch, by re(]uesting the attendance and assistance of 
 ]\Ir. Macaulay at every meeting of our body." 
 
 Previously to the receipt in England of tiie above despatches, the Court wrote out that 
 the)- had several times observed tlic signature of the fourth member of the Council of India 
 annexed to despatches relating to matters not connected with the making of laws and regu- 
 lations, thouiTh he could not be present at deliberations on such matters as a member of 
 Council. The Court considered the signature of the fourth member to a document, in respect 
 to which he shared none of the responsibility, to be an irregularity which ought not to exist, 
 and required it to be discontinued. This injunction has been attended to. 
 
 The fotirth member continued to be present at all meetings of the Council down to the 
 close of the administration of Lord Auckland in February 1842. On the assumption of the 
 Government by Lord Ellenborongh, it was determined, without any note on the subject being 
 placed on record, to restrict the attendance of the fourth member to meetings of the Legis- 
 lative Council, unless invited specially} when important matters connected with the judicial 
 and revenue administrations might be under consideration. 
 
 In August 1842, Mr. Amos signified his intention of resigning office early in the follow- 
 ing year, and this intimation was considered by the Court of Directors to present a fitting 
 opportunity ibr reconsidering the constitution of the Legislative Council and the functions of 
 the Law Commission, and the sentiments of the Government of India were called for to 
 enable the Court to decide how fivr it might be expedient to apply to Parliament to rescind 
 or modify the provisions of law under which those offices were created. 
 
 Mr. Amos, on the eve of retiring, recorded a minute on tlie subject of the Indian Law 
 Commission, in which the following paragrapii occurs respectinsi the office of fourth member 
 of Council. 
 
 " It is here necessary to observe, that the business of Council may be thought to press 
 somewhat less heavily on the president of the Commission, if the course be continued of 
 excluding the fourth member from being present at meetings of Council, during the trans- 
 action of the business of any other department than the legislative. This course, which is in 
 strictness quite legal, and is most consonant to the Act of Parliament, was adopted Avhen 
 Lord Jillenborongh assumed the Government, tiiongh, I believe, by no means in consequence 
 of the opinii)ns or wishes of the other members of Council. Lord W. l^eutinck and Lord 
 Auckland * have both written minutes in favour of the practice which has been superseded, 
 nute by Lord Auck- ^jj the Court j !i!vs especially approved of that practice. There can be no doubt, I think, 
 ant on le >u )|ec . ^^^^ ^j^^ ^^^^ course must render the legislative member much less efficient in the discharge 
 t Prolmbly tbt_ of his ])cculiar duties, especially for the first two or three years after his arrival, whilst in 
 lotli December the dejiartments of Government, in the deliberations of which he used to be present without 
 
 l834,i^^lere alluded interfering, an immediate reference to him, or occasional suggestion by him on purely legal 
 to. points, has, I am satisfied, often been found highly convenient. It may perliaps lie thought 
 
 that the time which, according to the new course, has been saved to the fourth member 
 from the business of Council, will not be wholly gained for the Commission. P'or very often 
 tlie discussions occurring on papers in other dei)artments of (Tovernment than the legislative, 
 but which have led to .«ome legislative me;'.sures, have, I am persuaded, obviated the neces- 
 sity of my making in(iuirics wliich would have consumed much more time, and would 
 probably hnve been much less satisfactory." 
 Leci>lative letter ^^" receipt of the Com-t's despatch of the 1st jMareli 1843, above referred to, the Governor- 
 
 (No. 1) of 1843, General (Lord Ellenliorough), then at Agra, reconnnended the doing away with the offices 
 
 dated 22 April. of fourth member of Council, and of the Law Commission. His Lordship was of opinion, 
 
 that " if the Advocate-Cieneral be a lawyer of knowledge and aliility, the Governor-General 
 in Council can want no other legal adviser;" that the legal member of Council had " hardly 
 anything really to do:" and that his labours, and those of the Law Commissioners, were 
 necessarily of an injurious an<l dangerous tendency, viz., creating legi.slation not absolutely 
 required, and tlicreby disturliing and agitating the minds of the people, while the Acts, 
 bearing aViout them much of the peculiar English character, were as ill-suited as possible to 
 the people of India. 
 
 On this occasion the President of the Council (Honourable W. W. Bird), recorded the 
 follow ng observations: — 
 Minute by Mr. W. Para. 2. " In respect to the fourth ordinary member of Council, it is obvious that drafts 
 
 W.UinI, dated of laws which arc to aff'e.'t the rights of British subjects in India, and to be binding on the 
 
 4 May 1843. o .- r^ 
 
 ' Buprenie 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 2.3) of 1842, 
 dated 5 August. 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 3) of 1843, 
 dated 1 March. 
 
 Minute by Mr. 
 Amos, dated 27 .Ian 
 nary 1843. 
 
 Legislative Cons, 
 dated 7 April 1843 
 (No. 18). 
 
 There is no mi-
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OiN LNDIAN TEIIRITOUIES. 535 
 
 Supreme Court, sliould pass under the revision of one or more ])ersons tliorouglily conversant Legislative Cons., 
 with Enolisli law. lint tiii.s can .seliloni occuj))' at most more than a few liours in a weclc ; and 10 Miiy 184.'J(No.l). 
 as the fourth member is prechuled from attendiiiL'' Council except at the legislative sittin"S, 
 to retain an officer on so high a salary with so little to do is a very expensive arrangement. 
 I have heard it suggested that the Advocate-general might supply Iiis place, and to this 
 I am aware of no objection so long as the Government of India is stationed at Calcutta, but 
 he could not be conveniently separated from his duties in the Supreme Court ; and were 
 circumstances to render necessary tlic removal of the (Government to any place at a distance 
 from the Presidency, it would be very difficult to find a qualified substitute. 1 have also heard 
 it suggested that the Chief .Fustice of the Supreme Court might be ex officio fourth ordinary 
 member of Council, but to this arrangement there is the .same objection in the event of the 
 removal of the Su|)rcme CTOvermiicnt from Calcutta, and there may be others of a profes- 
 sional nature. In short, although the present arrangement is not what it ought to be, it is 
 not easy to determine what should be substituted instead of it, and a law member in .some 
 shape or other is, as all must admit, indispensably necessary." 
 
 Mr. Bird further remarked, " And as a law member in some shape or other cannot, 
 I think, be conveniently dispensed with, he too should have a voice in all matters, judicial, 
 revenue, and conunercial, as well as legislative, lie need not perhaps have anything to 
 do with political and military affairs, but unless he sees and becomes acquainted with eveiy- 
 thing connected with the internal civil administration, he camiot possibly discharge as he 
 ought his legislative duties." 
 
 "o 
 
 The Honourable Sir Herbert Maddock, Knight, showed by the following remarks that 
 the fourth member of Council could not, in his ojMnion, be dispensed with : — 
 
 " But if the Law Commission is dissolved, that very circumstance would make me averse to Minute Lv Sir Her- 
 dispense with the services of a law member of Council. If that office is retained, it may bert Maddock, Knt., 
 attbrd in some measure a substitute tor the Commission. And I do not see how the business ^^^^'^ ^ May 1843. 
 of legislation could go on satisfactorily without such an officer. Lejiislaiive Cons., 
 
 "Since the passing of the Ciiartcr Act in 1833, great advantage has attended the presence l*^' -^'iiy 18-l3(No.2). 
 in Council of a member of the Government competent to advise it on doubtful points of law at 
 the moment when they occur. Hearing and entering into such discussions as take place at the 
 Council Board regarding proposed Acts of the Legislature, he becomes thoroughly informed 
 of the views of Government, and is enabled to prepare drafts of laws with an accuracy and 
 promptitude that could hardly be expected under any other arrangement. The general 
 legislation of the Government has by this aid proceeded without communication with the 
 Law Commissio'.i, and the most important laws have been passed without any reference to 
 that body. The business of legislation would be greatly retarded if the Government had to 
 cou.sult any one out of Council on every act pending or in contemplation. 
 
 " Since this Government was empowered to make laws for British subjects, as well as for 
 the natives of India, and for Her Majesty's courts of judicature, as well as for those of 
 the East India Company, it has become indispensable, in order to avoid faulty legislation, 
 that the Council should have at its command the services and advice of an English lawyer, 
 eminent in his profession, whose name will give weight and respect to his opinions. This 
 object can in no way be more conveniently attained than under the present system, to which 
 I am awai'e of no objections but such as may be urged on the score of expense. 
 
 " And if the appointment were abolished, the expense attending it could not be entirely 
 saved. We must still have some lawyer of eminence out of Council to whom we may refer, 
 and the salary must be high to induce such a man to come to India. Before the passing of 
 the Charter Act, the only law adviser of the Government was the Advocate-general in the 
 Queen's Court in Calcutta, and that officer is still frequently referred to for his advice or 
 opinion on points of law. His salary, as Advocate-general, is 4,000 1, per annum, added to 
 which he may have the advantage of lucrative practice in the Supreme Court. If the office 
 of law member of Council, as well as the Law Commission, wei-e abolished, the Government 
 would necessarily hnvc to consult this officer, or some other legal authority, on every act of 
 legislation affecting the principles or the practice of English law, and the Government busi- 
 ness would fall so much heavier than heretofore, that it would disable the Advocate-general 
 from attending to his general practice, and Government would be obliged either to restrict 
 him from general practice and allow him a much higher salary, or appoint another officer, as 
 Attorney-general, for itistance, to take a portion of the Government business. It would not 
 be advisable to adopt the fiist course, because a barrister in the Supreme Court, without the 
 stimulus to exertion which liberty to practic- there affords, would not be likely to possess 
 either the knowledge or the habits of business that would enable him to comi)etc witli those 
 in general practice, or to conduct well that part of the business of (xovernment which is con- 
 ducted in the court. If the second ])lan were ado|)ted, and another law officer were 
 appointed, it would be expedient to fix his salary on a scale sufficiently liberal to attract men 
 of first-rate talent at the English bar. Less than 5,000/. per ainmm would jirolwbly not 
 suffice to secure this object, "Then with two able and distinguished barristers in the service 
 of Government to advise on all points of law, and to assist in drawing up Acts, &c., the 
 business of legislation might be carried on. How far the plan would succeed must depend 
 on the zeal, the talent, and the diligence of the law officers. The security for talent would 
 depend on the amount of the salaries, and the judicious selection for these offices of the 
 ablest barristers in England willing to undertake them. For their zeal and diligence there 
 would be no practical secia-ity, and it is well known to the members of Council how much 
 former Governments have been embarrassed by the want of those qualities in an Advocate- 
 
 O.io. 3 >■ 3 general
 
 536 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix No. 10. general. But if we were secure of all the zeal, talent, and diligence that could be desired 
 
 L in these officers, I doul)t whether the work of legislation could be carried on through their 
 
 aid and advice so well and satisfactorily as it may be while we have for oin- colleague an able 
 barrister taking an active personal share in tliat part of the labours of Government. 
 
 " In considering the propriety, or otherwise, of dispensing with the law councillor, and 
 substituting such another arrangement as that just alluded to, it should not be forgotten 
 tiiat the Council of India is not necessarily stationary in Calcutta, where the Supreme 
 Court is held, and where the otticers of the court must needs remain. The Council may 
 be removed to any ])art of ]5ritish India, and in case of its removal, a dependence on the 
 distant advice of its law otticers would be found extremely inconvenient. 
 
 " The only other expedient whicli suggests itself for dispensing with tlic fourth member 
 of Council is the substitution of a law secretary in his place ; but it may be doubted 
 whether then a lower salary than that drawn by the fourth member would be sutlicient 
 to secure the first-rate talents and legal knowledge that we require. 
 
 " But, on the whole, I consider that the fourtli member of Council cannot be dispensed 
 with. 
 
 " I cntirclv concur in opinion witli Mr. Bird, that the law member ol' the Council of 
 India should be present in Council at all meetings where matters relating to the general 
 administration in the Home Department of the Government arc under discussion." 
 
 Major-general Sir AV. Casement recorded the following observations on tiie subject: — 
 Minute by Major- « j^ jg imj)0ssible, I think, to deny, looking at all tliat has been done, and all that remains 
 
 general ^ir\ ^^j^^*^" to US and to our successors to do, that a return to the old constitution of the Council, un- 
 jg43_' ' ■ assisted by legal learning aud experience, would quite unfit it for the duties it has to per- 
 
 Leffislative Cons foi'm. I do not know indeed that the autliorities at home have any such measure in contem- 
 10Mayl843(No.3). plation. But lest the idea should be entertained in any quarter, I would express my firm 
 conviction, in accordance with the view taken l)y Ijord William Bentinck's Government, that 
 the presence of a learned and judicious English lawyer, as a member of the Legislative 
 (Council, is indispensable to a right exercise of the functions of the Indian Legislatui-e. The 
 aid which we have had from such a member, and which will be even more necessary as the 
 Council advances to those ditficult questions which I liave shown yet remain for its considera- 
 tion, could only in a comparatively very small degree be given by one or more of the judges 
 of the Supreme Court, to whose employment in that capacity tliere exists at tlie same time, 
 as lias been remarked by Sir Edward Ryan in his Minute of 2d October 1839, the strongest 
 objections, founded upon a jjrinciple of very general application, and upon the wisest and 
 most enlarged views of political expediency, and the constitution of human society. The 
 Advocate-general might, to a limited extent, supply the infoi'inatlon wliicli the Council would 
 need, if it had no legal member. But the value of his advice would usually be less than 
 under such circumstances the Council would rec^uire ; his engrossing practice as a barrister 
 would always be in the way of that deliberate attention to legislative measures which would 
 be indispensably necessary to their success ; and his position in other respects might be un- 
 favourable to independent discussion, and would certainly jirevent his taking jiart in the con 
 sideration of legislative (jucstions witli such readiness and freedom as is desirable, and which, 
 I agree with tlie Honourable Court in thinking, will not be possessed by the legislative 
 adviser of the Council unless he be one oi' tlu^ir body, and present, if not actually taking 
 a part, not oidy when laws are in debate, but in all the deliberations of the Government, 
 political and military deliberations ])erhaps excepted. 
 
 " I repeat, therefore, that both from theory and from actual experience, I am strongly in 
 favour of the continuance of that constitution of the Legislative Council which gives us 
 the valuable assistance oi'an English lawyer selected liy the Home Government from among" 
 the profession on account of especial fitness, and I earnestly hope that no change will, in this 
 particular, be allowed to take place." 
 
 Legislative letter Xhe forctriiinrr minutes were forwarded to the Court of Directors, who, i>rcvious to their 
 
 1 t* 1 19 M ' receipt, Jiaving intimated that they were in possession of the views of the Governor-General 
 
 LeL'islative letter (Eon! Ellenborongh), but would await the sentiments of the members of Government, a 
 (No. 1(5) of 1843, second series of minutes were recorded on the subject, 
 dated 2S June. •» /-, 
 
 Ihe Honourable Mr. Cameron remarked as follows : — 
 
 Minute by tlie " I concur with the majority of the Council in thinking that a member possessing a know- 
 
 Honournble Mr. Jcdge of law and jurisprudence is necessary to make up an efficient legislature; and I 
 
 17 N^vemileJ'l'Ls further agree with the ni;ijority that 'he should have' (I (juote from ]\Ir.' Bird's minute of 
 
 ,.,,.„ 4 May 1843) 'a voice in all matters, judicial, revenue, and commercial, as well as legisla- 
 
 Lejfislative Cons.. . ■',, ' , , , ,, ,,. v . ,, ,, • , i -.i i-»- 7 i 
 
 2y Uecembcr 1043 ^ive. He need not, periia])s, Mr. Bu'd contuiues, ' liave anytlnng to do witli political aiul 
 
 (No. 1). military aftiiir-s, but unless lie sees and becomes aetjuainted with everytiiing connected with 
 
 the internal civil adinliilstralion, he cannot possibly discharge as he ought his legislative 
 
 duties.' 
 
 " The fourth member may i)eihaps be alile li> discharge his legislative duties by ha\ing 
 all the papers on any subject transferred to the Legislative Department as soon as any legis- 
 lative pro|)osition is made u])on it, but undoubtedly it would be a much more convenient 
 arrangement that he should assist at the dellijerations of the Council upon all matters of 
 internal administration. 
 
 " An instance lately occurred which illustrates the inconvenience of the present arrange- 
 ment. A draft of a despatch to the Court of Directors was prepared, requesting that the 
 opinions of the Attorney and Solicitor General, and of the law officers of the Company, 
 
 miiilit
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRI I'UlUES. 
 
 537 
 
 might, be taken upon :i number of extremely imjiortant ami extremely difficult questions of ApiiemJix, No. 10. 
 constitutional law arising out of tlie late Cliarter Act. 
 
 " The Secretary, .siijiposing tliis despatch to l)e in tlie Legislative Department, sent the draft 
 to me, and as I diH'ered from some of the opinions which seemed to i)e implied in tlie draft, 
 and was also desirous of giving what assistiuice I could to the liome authorities in the 
 solution of the question raised, I wrote a minute which 1 intended to accompany the 
 despatch. It was decided, however, tliat the de-sjiatch was in the Political, and not in the 
 Legislative Department, and consc(|uently my minute could not be admitted as a number in 
 it. I do not suppose I shall be accused of setting up myself as an authority upon Indian 
 constitutional law, wiien I say that I am convinced the Attorney and Solicitor General, 
 and the Company's Council, would have been glad before making up their minds upon these 
 questions to have seen them discussed by a lawyer, whose position has naturally induced 
 him to bestow a good deal of reflection upon them. 
 
 " I would give, then, to the iburtli member of Council complete means of information upon 
 all matters, revenue and judicial, as well as legislative, and access to the debates of the 
 Executive Council for that purpose ; but I would not cast upon him the responsibility 
 which belongs to the other councillors in revenue and judicial matters, lest he should not 
 have the time necessary for maturing legislative measures ; I would make his connection 
 with the revenue and judicial department entirely subsidiary to his legislative duties." 
 
 The Governor-General (Lord Ellcnborough) repeated his former opinion in the following 
 words : — 
 
 3. "Any sound lawyer of established reputation can afford to the Government of India all ;\rinutc by the Go- 
 
 the aid it can require in legislative as well as in legal matters, without being made a member vemor-General, 
 
 of the Council : and ccrtainh^ there is nothing in Mr. Cameron's minute to change my pre- ,^!, ~" ^°'^'^'"'"^'' 
 
 vious opinion tliat all such aid as is required can be more conveniently rendered by a liar- Legislative Cons 
 
 rister in the position of Advocate-general, than in that of member of Council." 2.3 becember(No. 2) 
 
 1843. 
 
 The Honourable W. W. Bird also repeated his sentiments in the following terms: — 
 
 '• I now broadly state it to be my opinion that no man, let his talents be what tliey may, Minute by the 
 
 and whether he be a member of Council or a Law Commissioner, is qualified to legislate for Honourable \\^VV. 
 
 India, unless he takes a part in all matters, judicial, reveimc, and conunercial, as well as cenib'e'r''^l8i3^ 
 
 legislative, and has the opportunity of becoming practically acquainted with the civil admi- , • i ♦" ^ r 
 
 nistratiou of the country. I draw no invidious comparisons between members of Council 03 jjecember 1843 
 
 and Law Commissioners ; but this I say, and it is the result of considerable experience of both, (No. 3). 
 that so long as either of them see nothing of what is going on, and take no part in the 
 general Government, they cannot possess the local knowledge and experience necessary to 
 qualify them for discharging as they ought their legislative duties." 
 
 Major-General Sir W. Casement adhered to the opinion he had formerly expressed : — 
 
 " In my minute of tiie 9th May last I reviewed the reasons which induced the present 
 constitution of the Legislative Council, and the establishment of the Law Commission. I 
 stated the objects which by the Instrumentality of those bodies it was f)roposed to accom- 
 plish ; I compared what had hitherto been effected with what had been designed, and 
 showed how much difficult and important a work remained to be done. I traced the share 
 of the Council and of the Law Commission respectively in the legislation which had taken 
 place since the introduction of the new system ; and inferring from past experience our pros- 
 pects for the future, I decided that the expectations had been fulfilled under wliich the new 
 constitution of the Legislative Council had been framed, and that it ought therefore to be 
 continued, but that the Law Commission had not succeeded in its objects, and ought there- 
 fore to be abolished. 
 
 "Mr. Cameron's minute upon the same subject of tlie 17th ultimo, has given me the 
 opportunity of again considering the question in all its bearings, and I have applied to it, 
 and to the able .and interesting paper of which he has now afforded us tlie advantage, all 
 the attention which they may justly claim. 1 liave found, however, no reason to alter the 
 opinions I formerly expressed." 
 
 The Honourable Sir Herbert A. Maddock, Knight, on a reconsideration of the question, 
 did not see any reason for altering his views as to the expediency of abolishing the Law 
 Commission and retaining the fourth member of Council. 
 
 These minutes were forwarded to the Honourable the Court of Directors, who, however, 
 previous to their receipt, and iiaving before them the sentiments of the Government con- 
 veyed in the first scries of minutes, determined on ti)e continuance of the office of fourth 
 member of Council, and on the expediency of his presence at all meetings of the Council. 
 The following is an extract from the Court's despatch : — 
 
 2. " Considering the nature and extent of the legislative authority vested in the Govern- 
 ment of India by the 3 & 4 Will. 4, cap. 85, ue have come to the conclusion that the ap- 
 pointment of fourth member of Council cannot, without detriment, be disi)ensed with. A\'e 
 have also adverted to the opinion of former Governments, in which you have expressed a 
 general concurrence, that it is of importance, with a view to tlie efficient performance of the 
 duties belonging to that appointment, that the person filling it should be present at all meet- 
 ings of Couucll for the administration of the affaii"a of Government. In conformity to that 
 
 0.10. 3^4 opinion. 
 
 iMinute by Major- 
 iieneral Sir W. Case- 
 iiient, dated 14 De- 
 cember 1843. 
 
 Legislative Cons., 
 ■23 December 1843 
 
 (No. 4). 
 
 Minute by Sir Her- 
 bert Maddock, Kt., 
 dated 20 December 
 1843. 
 
 Legislative Cons., 
 23 December 1843 
 (No. o). 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 25) of 1843, 
 dated 21 December. 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 22) of 1843, 
 dated 29 November.
 
 538 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 10. opinion, we desii-e that the presence of the fourth member of Council may not be restricted 
 
 _: to meetings lield for the purpose of passing laws and regulations ; but at the same time you 
 
 will bear in mind, that at such meetings only is he entitled to a voice in your proceedings." 
 
 For serret letter, 
 dated 18 Ferbuary 
 1844. 
 
 Minute by the Go- 
 venior-General, 
 dated 18 February 
 1844. 
 
 Legislative Cons., 
 16 March 1844 
 (No. 1). 
 
 3 & 4 Will. 4, c. 
 s. 40. 
 
 On receipt of the above orders, the Governor-General (Lord Ellenborougli), then at 
 Benares, recorded the following minute, and communicated it to the Court : — 
 
 " The Court of Directors, in their letter dated the 29th of November 1843, have intimated 
 their desire tliat the presence of the fourth member of Council may not be restricted to 
 meetings held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations, but have at the same time 
 cautioned us to bear in mind that at such meetings only is he entitled to a voice in our pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 •' !t is impossible to regard this otherwise than as a mere expressinn of tlie ojiinion and 
 wish of the Court. If the words used could be regarded as conveying a ' direction,' by virtue 
 of such direction the fourth member of Council would become entitled to sit at meetings 
 not held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations ; but the last Charter Act expressly 
 provides that the fourth member of Council shall not be entitled to sit or vote in the Council, 
 except at meetings tliereof for making laws and regulations; therefore any such 'direction' 
 given by tlie Court would be altogether invalid, because inconsistent with the Act of Parlia- 
 ment, from which alone the Court derive their authority. 
 
 "The Council of India, as establislied by the Act of Parliament, is as much a part of the 
 constitution of India as the Court of Directors, and it is tiie duty of the Council to guard 
 with jealousy its rights, to resist all infringement of its powers; and above aU, to treat as 
 utterly null every direction which, if obeyed, would change its composition. 
 
 " Considering, however, tliat the Court can only have intended to convey an intimation 
 of their opinion and of their wish, and not to send a direction, wliich they are not by law 
 comjictent to give, we may properly show our respect for the opinion of the Court by carry- 
 ing into effect their wish that the fourth member of Council sliould sit at meetings of the 
 Coimcil not held for the purpose of making laws and regulations, in as far as it may appear 
 that his presence may not be injurious to the public service ; but it must at all times be 
 borne in mind, tliat above all tliint^s secrecy in Council and promptitude of action are essen- 
 tial to the successful conduct of })ublic affairs in India; and it must also be understood, tliat 
 any individu.d member of the Council may, at any time if he shall see fit, re([ulre that any 
 person shall withdraw from the Council wlio is not entitled to sit therein by the Act of 
 Parliament." 
 
 Minute by Mr. W. 
 VV. Bird, dated 
 24 February 1844. 
 
 Lesislative Cons., 
 16 "March 1844 
 (No. 2). 
 
 The Honourable W. W. Bird (President of the Council), proposed to summon the fourth 
 member of Council to attend at all meetings in the Home Department, iind to carry out the 
 orders of the Court, in the followuig terms : — 
 
 " I have seen the minute of the Governor-General, dated the 18th instant, on the letter 
 from the Honourable tlie Court of Directors, intimating their desire that the presence of tlie 
 Iburth member of Council may not be restricted to meetings held for the purpose of passing 
 laws and regulations, and reminding us at the same time that at such meetings only is he 
 entitled to a voice in our proceedings. 
 
 " Tills intimation from tlie ilonourable Court has confessedly been made in consequence 
 of the opinions expressed here, and liy no one more strongly than myself, regarding the im- 
 fitness for exercising legislative powers of tliose who see nothing of tlie internal administra- 
 tion of the couiitrv. Tins unfitness, after long observation, has struck me so forcibly that 
 I have not iiesitated to ascribe to it the differences of opinion which have almost unlibrmly 
 been found to exist between the Government and the Law Ccmmissioners on ahiiost every 
 legislative project wliich has come imder discussion ; and I continue to think it absolutely 
 necessary for the full efficiency of the fourth member of Council that he should attend, not 
 merely the legislative meetings, but all meetings at which the civil administration of India 
 may be brought under consideration. 
 
 " VVitli these views, and in deference to the wi.shes of the Ilonourable tlie Court of 
 Directors, communicated in reply to our own representations, I would suggest that the 
 fourth member of Council be summoned to attend all meetings in the Home Dejiartment, 
 and that the papers connected with that department be regularly circidated for his perusal 
 in common with the otlier luenibcrs. 
 
 " In regard to his JK-i:!;; required to withdraw at any time, I do not think that any 
 individual nii'inbcr should iiave the power of enforcing such a reipiisltion without the con- 
 currence of the other members; but he may propose Ills witiidrawal, and the question must 
 be determined, as in all other cases, by the voice of tlie Council at large." 
 
 The Ilonourable Sir Herbert Maddock, Knight, recorded his views 
 follows : — 
 
 on the subject, as 
 
 MmjiiIc liy Sir Her- "I' "ot absolutely ncccssary, It is, I tliliik, highly desir;d)le that the fourth ordinary 
 bert Muddock, Kt., memi)er should be generally ]>resent in Council at ;dl <nir deliberations on subjects connected 
 dated 26 lebruary with the internal administration of the country, and we shall, I conceive, sufheiently meet 
 
 the ex])re9scd wishes of tlie Ilonourable Court by summoning Mr. Cameron to attend and 
 Legislative Cons., be present at the Council Board during tlie proceedings of (lovernment, in the Home as well 
 (s^Tq 3^ as in the Legislative I)e])!irtinent. It appears (|ulle unnecessary to re(iiilre the attendance of 
 
 the fourth ordliiarj' member at those meetings of the Council which are devoted to the con- 
 
 lie 
 sideration
 
 SELECT COMiMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 539 
 
 sidcration of militaiy iuid political questions, and it may be considered ohjcctionable in i)rin- Appendix No 10 
 
 ciplc that any irrcsj)onsiblc party should be allowed to be present at times when the Govern- L 
 
 ment may be deliberating on questions of foreign policy, of war or of peace, or on any matter 
 requiring secrecy. 
 
 " If the attendance of the fourth ordinary member is limited as here proposed, I can 
 hardly contemplate the possible occurrence of the necessity for so unpleasant a measure as 
 that of desiring him to withdraw. 
 
 "• The only objection that can be made to Mr. Bird's recommendation, that all papei-s in 
 the Home Department should be sent to the fourth ordinary member for his perusal before 
 they are considered at the Coimcil table, is the additional delay which will attend the circu- 
 lation of the papers, and that may be avoided by arrangements to ensure promptitude in the 
 circulation of such papers as require despatch." 
 
 The Governor-General (Lord EUenborough) having returned to the Presidency, recorded 
 the following second minute on the question: — 
 
 " Inasmuch as the fourth member of Council is not entitled by t!ie Act of Parliament to Minute by the Go- 
 sit in Council, except at meetings thereof for the making of laws, it must of necessity be in vernor-General, 
 the power of any member of the Council to desire that the fourth member should withdraw 1344 ^^ February 
 from any Council not held for that object, that is, to require the due observance of the Act 
 of Parliament. 
 
 " It may very possibly never be deemed necessary by any member of the Council to 
 exercise this his undoubted privilege ; but in a minute, referring to the law, it was necessary 
 clearly to state what the law is, and to guard jealously all the privileges of those who are 
 alone entitled on all occasions to sit and vote in the Council of India." 
 
 Legislative Cons.^ 
 16 March 184* 
 (No. 4) 
 
 There was a meeting of Council on the date of the foregoing minute (28 th February 1844), 
 and there is a paper in the office, written by Mr. Cameron, on that date, which may perhaps 
 have been read in Council, but which was never recorded. The paper is headed " Protest," 
 and its contents are as follows : — 
 
 " It ia impossible for me not to know that the presence of the fourth member of Council 
 at Councils not legislative is against the wishes of the head of the Government, and, knowing 
 that, I came here with the greatest I'eluctance. 
 
 " I came, because I do not feel that I should be justified in refusing to do my part 
 towards a compliance with the instructions received from England by the December mail. 
 But in order that there may be no misunderstanding, I wish to put upon record my protest 
 that I do not come here upon the footing in whicli a stranger comes into the gallery of one 
 of the Houses of Parliament ; and, consequently, if I should be required upon any occasion 
 to retire by any individual member of the Council, it is my intention to refuse compliance 
 with such requisition. It is my Intention not to retire until the Council breaks up, unless 
 requu-ed so to do by a vote of the majority of the Council, or by tlie Governor-General, 
 acting under the 49th section of the Charter, and of course with all the forms prescribed by 
 that section. 
 
 " I give no opinion on the question whether such a I'equisition by the majority of the 
 Council, or by the Governor, acting under the 49th section of the Charter Act, would or 
 would not be a violation of the instructions received from home ; because, even assuming 
 that it would be such a violation, I think it would not be for me to take the objection, but 
 i-ather to leave it to the Court of Directors and the Board of Control to vindicate their own 
 authority. 
 
 " A requisition made by one or more individual members of Council I should look upon 
 as a nullity. A requisition made by a vote of the Council, or by the Governor-General, 
 under the 49th section of the Charter Act, I should consider binding upon me, though 
 perhaps invalid as against our superiors at home. 
 
 (signed) " C. H. Cameron." 
 
 "28 February 1844." 
 
 At the next meeting of the Council, the following Letter was addressed to ilr. Cameron : 
 
 " We are of opinion that a more extensive knowledge than you are at present enabled to 
 obtain of the revenue and judicial administration of the country would tend to faeilitate the 
 performance of your duties as a Legislative Councillor, and we propose, should you concur 
 with us in this opinion, to communicate to you such more Important papers connected with 
 those two branches of the Civil Government as may seem to be calculated to afford you 
 valuable information with respect to its details. 
 
 " We likewise propose to request your attendance in the Council when important matters 
 connected wltli the revenue and judicial administration may be under consideration. You 
 must be aware that the matters which come before the Council, even in the Civil Depart- 
 ments, generally press for early, if not Immediate decision, and that any arrangement intended 
 to facilitate j'our acquisition of a knowledge of the details of the administration must be so 
 guarded as not to dimiaish that promptitude of action which is essential to the conduct of 
 affairs in India." 
 
 Letter from the Go- 
 vernor-General and 
 members of Council 
 to the Honourable 
 Mr. Cameron, dated 
 4 March 1844. 
 
 Legislative Cons., 
 16 March 1844 
 
 (No. 5). 
 
 0.10. 
 
 3Z 
 
 To
 
 :-4o 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 JtrtijiciHiii, No. 10. To -.vhicb Mr. Cameron made the following reply :- 
 
 Letter t'i'cii]i tlie 
 Hoiioiinible Mr. 
 Cajiieron, dated 
 7 March 1844. 
 
 Legislative Cons 
 10 March 1844 
 (No. 0). 
 
 " I have the honour to ackuowledge the receipt of your letter of the 4th instant. In that 
 letter j'ou inform me that you are of opinion that a more extensive knowledge than I am at 
 present enabled to obtain of the revenue and judicial administration of the country would 
 tend to facilitate the performance of my duties as a Legislative Councillor, and that you pro- 
 pose, should 1 concur with j-ou in tliis oj)inion, to communicate to me such more important 
 j)apers connected with those two branches of the Civil Government as may seem to be 
 calculated to aftbrd me valuable information witii respect to its details. 
 
 " In answer, I beg to state tliat I do entirely concur in the opinion you have expressed, 
 and that I shall be happy to have such papers as you have described communicated to me. 
 
 " You furtlier inform me. that you propose to request my attendance in the Council when 
 important matters connected witli the revenue and judicial administration may be under 
 consideration. 
 
 " I shall most readily attend, as fourth member of Council, at any meetings of the 
 Council at which you may think my attendance can be advantageous to the public 
 service. 
 
 " With respect to the arrangements intended to facilitate my acquisition of a knowledge 
 of the details of tlie administration, I have no doubt you will fake care that they shall be 
 as effectual for that purpose as is consistent with the due performance of your own executive 
 functions."' 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 6) of 1844, 
 dated 16 :Mard]. 
 
 Legislative letter 
 (No. 12) of 1844, 
 dated u June. 
 
 Copies of the minutes and of the foregoing correspondence were forwarded to the Court of 
 Directors, who replied to the despatch as follows : — 
 
 " We forbear from commenting upon the terms in which you have, in your several minutes, 
 adverted to the instructions addressed to you in our letter of the 29th November last, 
 regarding the foiu-th member of Council ; but it is necessary that we should set you right 
 with I'espect to some degree of misapprehension entertained by you on the subject. 
 
 " In the letter in question, we desired, in conformity with the practice which until recently 
 had always been oljserved, ' that the presence of the fourth member of Council may not be 
 I'estricted to meetings held for the purpose of passing laws and regulations ;' but at the same 
 time we drew your attention to the provision of the Charter Act, ' that he shall not be entitled 
 to sit or vote in the said Council,' except at such meetings. We thereby showed you clearly, 
 that we did not consider our instructions to be inconsistent wit'i that provision. 
 
 " The fourth member, not being ' entitled to sit or vote in tlie said Council,' does not form 
 a comjjonent part of that body, and has no voice in its proceedings, except for the purpose 
 of making laws and regulations. But the expression, ' to sit' in Council, is not used 
 in a literal sense, as if the Cc)uncil where the place were the members met, instead of the 
 constituent body itself. It seems sufficiently obvious that it was not intended to be illegal 
 for the fourth member to be present at all meetings of Council, from this consideration 
 alone, that he would in that case be the only individual subject to such a disqualification. 
 
 " With respect to the attendance of the fourth member at the Council, while it may 
 be engaged in questions purely of a political or military nature, we concur with the opinions 
 conveyed in the minutes which you have forwarded to us from the other members, as to the 
 propriety of his absence upon such occasions." 
 
 Under the above arrangement, Mr. Cameron continued to see, in addition to the corre- 
 spondence in the legislative branch, only such papers connected with the revenue and judicial 
 administration as were of any importance; but since the assumption of the office of fourth 
 member of Council bv the Ilonourablc Mr. I5ethunc, the whole of the papers of the Home 
 Department are submitted lor his perusal. There is nothing on record respecting this change 
 of practice. 
 
 Home Office, November 1849. 
 
 Minute by Sir F. Currir, Bart., dated 29 November 1849. 
 
 This very interesting paper has been prepared, 1 believe, in consequence of a remark made 
 liy myself at the last meeting of Council. 
 
 1 am desirous that no misa]iprchensio)i should arise as to the nature or pur[)ort of that 
 remark. 
 
 Some jiapcrs were submitted by the Governmeut of Madras, iu reply to a call from this 
 Government (made on looking at their abstract of proceedings), regarding certain me;isurcs 
 piirsucfl Iiy the Madras (Jovernmciit for maintaining tiie peace of one of their cities, a breach 
 of which was threatened l)v a dispute regarding caste ])rivileges. 
 
 I suggested that tlie Madras Government should be supported, and that we should not inter- 
 fere in tlie matter. 
 
 The Honourable Messrs. Lowis and Bcthune wrote minutes, entering at length into the 
 question discussed in the Madras jiapers, and the principles involved iu their orders, and 
 8ti-ongly condcnming the measures ado[)tcd by the JNI.adras Government, which I had pro- 
 posed to u[ihol<i, HO far as non-interference went. 
 
 'Ihesc minutes were rend in Council ; and Mr. I-owis requested that his might be recorded; 
 and on his aj)plying to Mr. Bethune if lie desired to record his, I suggested a doubt if Mr. 
 
 Bethuno's
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OIV INDIAN TERRITORIES. 54, 
 
 Betliunc's could be recorded, as an official document, with reference to tlic nature of the A..i,i.i„liv Xn-wi- 
 subject discusscu therein. 
 
 The subject is one of pure executive police, involving no legal, judicial, or revenue ques- 
 tion, and I was doubtful whetlier, in reference to the Charter Act and the practice of the 
 Council, as far as 1 was aware of it, I was bound to or could consider the minute of the 
 fourth ordinary member an official paper, to which, if it should remain on record, I might 
 desire to add a rejoinder. 
 
 In consequence of my remark, ;Mr. Halliday was requested to see how the question stootl 
 as to the position of the fourth ordinary member in meetings of the Council, other than for 
 legislative purposes. This paper is the result ; I think it proves that the minute in question 
 should not be considered an official one, susceptible of being recorded. 
 
 I did not desire, and do not desire, to raise the question discussed in the paper submitted by 
 Mr. Halliday any further. I consider that we derive much benefit at all times from Mr. 
 Bethune's remarks or suggestions, as amicus curies in questions of a general character ; and 
 I think that the fourth ordinary member should be present at all our sittings relatin"- to 
 domestic administration. ° 
 
 (signed) F. Currie. 
 
 MrNiTE by the Honourable J. Loiois, dated 12 November 1849. 
 
 The original subject matter of this discussion is apparently of a trivial cliaracter, viz. 
 whether certain parties shall ride in palanquins on particular occasions ; but the principle 
 involved is of very wide application. 
 
 The petition having, however, referred to the Honourable Court, we were not, as members 
 of the Council of India, called upon to vote or decide ; but as I thouglit the Madras Govern- 
 ment had followed a wrong and pernicious course, I conceived it to be my duty to put upon 
 record, for the information of the Honourable Court, the expression of my opinion, and my 
 reasons for it. 
 
 The case belongs to a class upon which it is our practice to seek the advice of the fourth 
 member of Council. 
 
 In this particular case he advised as usual, without objection being taken, and the question 
 was then raised whether under the circumstances he might record, as I had done, for the 
 information of the Honourable Court, the advice with which he had iii\oured us. Having been 
 invited to do the one, it certainlj' appears to me that he is entitled to do the other ; nor do 
 I find anything, either in the Charter Act itself, or the voluminous correspondence relating to 
 the official position in the Council of the fourth or legislative member, which militates 
 against this view of the question. 
 
 He is not entitled, as of right, to sit at all meetings of the Council, but benefit to the 
 general business of the country has been found to result from his so sitting, and he is sum- 
 moned accordingly. All the papers in the Home Department are circulated for his perusal, 
 as they are to the other members of the Council, and at the Council Board his opinion 
 on these papers is delivered in due course. I can discover no reason why, at a subsequent 
 stage, it should be suppressed. 
 
 (signed) J. Lowis. 
 
 Minute by the Honoiu^ble J. E. D. Bethune, dated 12 April 1850. 
 
 The abstract prepared in the Secretary's office of the previous discussions which have been Fouith ordinary 
 held in respect of the position and functions of the fourth ordinary member of Council is member of Council, 
 very interesting, but goes beyond the question which was lately raised. There is no proposal 
 now before the Council for recommending the abolition of the office of the Ibvn-th member, 
 nor whether he should be present on other occasions than Councils held for making laws, noi' 
 whether papers connected with the executive administration of the country should be sent 
 to him. The only question now under di.scussion is, Avhethcr any minutes which he may 
 vM-itc on the perusal of such papers should be recorded. I am hapjiy to think that, owing 
 to the harmony and cordiality which have marked the deliberations of the Council since I 
 have had the honour of belonging to it, this question c;in be now discussed without any 
 danger of that acrimonious spirit which appears plainly enough in the latter part of the 
 mintites previously recorded on this subject, and which was .almost inseparable from the 
 knowledge which the fourth ordinary member then had that the head of the (ioAcrnment 
 considered him, and all but called him, an useless and mischievous burden cm the country. 
 The main questions, then, in debate may now be considered as decided. 1 do not think my 
 personalinterest inutile matter influences me in mj- judgment that they have been rightly 
 decided. 
 
 The presence of the fourth ordinary member at all Councils, and the conmuinication to 
 him of all administrative papers is essential to liim, who comes to this country (at least I did 
 so) with no other knowledge of the details of Government in India than is to be scantily 
 gleaned in England by men familiar with the ctinduct of public business at home, but having 
 no special opportunities of gaining information on Indian affiuis I think, too, that it must 
 be useful to the other members of Council. Their qualifications for their office have been 
 matured by experience gained during long continued residence in this country, which, 
 although not inconsistent with an accurate and lively perception of the course and progress 
 
 o.io. 3 2'- *j'
 
 542 APPEI^DIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendij, No. 10. of opinion in England, must in some degree be detrimental to it. Tliey must almost noces- 
 
 sarily acquire the habit of looking on public questions from one particular point of view, and 
 
 cannot without some eftbrt discover that this may not be the only one. It is sometimes assumed 
 that tlie only object of appointing the legislative member of Council, as ho is often called, 
 was to secure the services of an English lawyer ; but in the Act there is no security for hi» 
 possessin"- any le^al knowledge, or indeed any qualification, or rather disqualification, other 
 than the°remarkable one that he shall be " appointed from among [lorscn^i who :ire not ser- 
 vants of the said Company." 
 
 Advertin"- to this restriction, I am of opinion that the special end of his appointment was 
 clearlv in oi-der that one person 'might be added to the Governor-General's Council thorouglily 
 free from the influence of habits of thought acquired by a life spent in India, and that Indian 
 statesmen mio-ht hear, during their deliberations, how the questions under their consideration 
 were likely to be viewed by those conversant v.-ith the ;>dmini?tration of public affairs in 
 Eno-land. In local knowledge, whatever facilities may be attbrded to him for gaining it, he 
 must always remain inferior to them: but, even in this branch of knowledge they may be 
 led sometimes to review the grounds of their own judgment, on finding that to him they 
 appear strano-e or jieculiar. 1 therefore consider the present practice as fraught with benefit 
 to all ill Coimcil ; and with reference to the last consideration I have urged, I think that it 
 would have been better if the course followed while INIr. Macaulay was here had been 
 uniforiiilv adhered to, and if papers in the Foreign as well as the Home Department were 
 circulated to the fourth ordinary member. Lord William Bentinck undoubtedly luul good 
 grounds for urging that ''■ in every Council, particularly in the Political Department, ques- 
 tions have come before us appertaining to international law, reciprocal jurisdiction, claims for 
 fuoitivcs," &c. ; and, unless there is a difference of opinion among the other members of 
 Council, in consequence of which the papers are received, I learn nothing of these questions 
 even by my attendance at Councils in the Foreign Department. 
 
 The Council will understand that I am forced to take for granted in this discussion, that 
 the fourth ordinary member has discretion and knowledge enough to give a reasonable pro- 
 bability that his opinion on such subjects may be worthy hearing. If he has not, or is sup- 
 posed not to have such qualifications, the fitting remedy is, that the proper authorities should 
 request him to leave the Council-chamber in a wider sense than that in which the phrase was 
 employed by Lord Ellenborough. 
 
 Assuming, then, that any papers which are sent to the fourth ordinary member are so 
 sent, partly to enable him to understand the government of the country, and partly tliat the 
 knowledge of his opinion upon them may be of use to his colleagues, T tiiink it undeniable 
 that it is best to have that opinion on important matters in writing. 
 
 Indeed, on many intricate points I could not pretend to have an opinion unless formed in 
 the quiet of my own room, with the advantage of consulting my library, and recording at 
 leisure the knowledge I so gather. These written opinions may or may not influence the 
 decision of the Council. At worst, they are harmless,; for, as I liave no vote, they can 
 prevail only .'^o far as the cogency of their argument gives them weight. The case of the 
 Madras pier is in point. 
 
 The Governor-General and other members of Council had agi-eed to reconunend to the 
 Court a proposal to guarantee to the projectors a dividend of five per cent. It is on record 
 that, upon considering a minute of mine, this proposal was afterwards rejected. How would 
 the matter have stood if my opinion had been given orally with the same consequence, and 
 my minute had not been written or recorded? Either the other members of Council must 
 have cancelled all they had previously recorded, or they must have sent home an unmotived 
 decision, apjiarently in opposition to their own arguments, or they must have recorded their 
 chano-e of opinion on arguments of which the Court would have no cognizance. And what 
 applies to the Court, applies also to the Governor-General while absent from the Council. 
 Indeed, this discussion was revived upon a question whether a coanncutary of mine on Mr. 
 Grant's summary of Mr. Blunt's case ought to have been sent to the Governor-General 
 witii the other papers. 
 
 The Court have very properly directed, by their despatch of 8 July 1835, that the signa- 
 ture of the fourth mcniber of Council should not be appended to des[)aT,ches for v, liich he is 
 not officially responsible ; but that is a very difi[(;rent thing from desiring not to see the 
 opinions he may have given, and on which possibly, as in the case of the Madras pier, the 
 conclusions of tlie despatcii may have turned. So many of my minutes have gone home, which, 
 on any oilier inter|)retati()n of its meaning, would have been in contravention of their 
 despatch, tliat I think the Court would hardly have failed to desire tliat the practice be 
 discontinued, if it were disapproved by them. I give a list of some whicli 1 have taken 
 at random, none of which has any bearing on any legislative question, during the last year. 
 
 Sir Henry Seton's Salary . - - February 1849. 
 
 Treaties of Extradiiion. 
 
 The Paul Jones ... - March. 
 
 Burying Grounds ... - March to November. 
 
 Episcopal .Inrisdiction . - - - May. 
 
 The Khond Idol. 
 
 Instruction in Civil Engineering, Madras June. 
 
 (Jrant, .Medical College - - - ftlay, .Tuly. 
 
 Rules lor the Delhi Family. 
 
 Mr. IMunt's Case ... - September, December. 
 
 Synds of Tatto. 
 
 St.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TliRRITORIES. 
 
 •543 
 
 St. P:iur.s School. 
 Students of Fort William 
 Bombay Police ami Currency 
 Palanquin Processions (Tiimcvelly) 
 
 - November. 
 November. 
 
 - November 1849. 
 
 Appendix, No. in 
 
 This last gave the occasii n for mooting the question under discussion, wiiich arose also on 
 Mr. Blunt's case. Both hn.e been before the Court long enough for them to have desired 
 that no more such shouM be sent, had they deemed them improperly or superfluously 
 forwarded. 
 
 (signed) J. E. D. Bethune. 
 
 12 April 1850. 
 
 (No. GQ.) 
 
 Fao.M the Secretary to the Government of India with the Governor-Cireneral, to the Secretary 
 to the Government of India, Home Department, Fort William, dated 4 June 1850. 
 
 Sir, 
 I AM directed to transmit herewith, for the information of the Honourable the President 
 in Council, copy of a minute by the Most Noble the Governor-General, dated the 29th ultimo, 
 containing his Lordship's opinion on the question mooted by the members of Council, regard- 
 ing the part which the fourtli ordinary member thereof is entitled to take in the proceedings 
 of the Council, and to request the attention of his Honour to the last paragraph thereof. 
 
 2. The minutes recorded by the members of Council which were sent up in original are 
 herewith returned. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 Simla, 4 June 1850. (signed) H. M. EUioL 
 
 Secretary to the Government of India 
 with the Governor-General. 
 
 Home Departni<!nt 
 
 (Copy.) 
 
 MiNDTE by the Most Noble the Governor-General of India, dated Simla, 29 May 1850. 
 
 1 HAVE given ray best attention to the minute recorded by the several members of Council, fourth member of 
 regarding the limits of the share which the fourth oi'diuary member thereof is in practice *^ounciI. 
 entitled to take in the proceedings of the Council. 
 
 2. The question now raised differs from those which liave been discussed by the Govern- 
 ment of India, on the several occasions mentioned in the memorandum submitted by the 
 secretary. There is now no question as to whether the office of fourth member of Council, 
 as established by the Charter Act, should be abolished or not. It has long since been decided, 
 and in my humble judgment most wisely decided, by a great preponderance of opinion, that 
 such an oflScer is not only valuable, but necessary to the Government of India ; and the only 
 alteration which I should desire to make in the office as it stands, is the removal of the 
 restrictions which the Act has placed on the duties and powers of the person who fills it. 
 Neither is there any longer a question as to whether the fourth ordinary member of Council 
 should in practice be admitted only to meetings of the Council for purposes of legislation. 
 It has been decided by the Honourable Court of Directors that the fourth member of Council 
 shall be present at all meetings of the Supreme Council in the Home Department, and the 
 fourth member has accordingly attended such meetings, and has had communicated to him 
 all the papers in that department for some time past. 
 
 3. The question which is now raised is, whether the fourth member of Council, confessedly 
 authorised to attend the meetings of the Council in the Home Department, and to see the 
 papers belonging to it, is entitled to embody his opinion on any paper which may thus come 
 before him, in a minute, and to jjlace that document on record. 
 
 4. The Honourable Sir Fredei-ick Currie holds that he is not so entitled ; the Honourable 
 Mr. Lowis, on the contrary, considers th.at he is entitled to record his opinion. Tlie Honourable 
 President docs not appear from the papei's before me to have stated his views on the point 
 mooted. 
 
 5. I have to submit it as my opinion, formed after a perusal of the abstract of all that has 
 previously passed on this subject — 
 
 1st. That the fourth member of Council is not entitled by the Act to sit or vote, except 
 in meetinos of the Legislative Council. 
 
 2d. Thnt although not entitled to sit and vote, he is not by the Act absolutely excluded 
 from admitlance. 
 
 od. That in accordance with tliat view, the fourth member has, at the suggestion of the 
 Government of India, and with the approval of the Court, been allowed to be j)resent at all 
 meetings of the Council in the Home Department, and to see all the papers of that office. 
 I think that he ought to continue thus to attend, and to see the papers. 
 
 4th. That as I conceive it to be clearly shown in the minutes and despatches of the 
 members of the Government and of the Court, since the date of tlie last Charter Act, 
 that thnir intention in admitting the fourth member to meetings of Council was, that he 
 
 o.io. 3 z 3 should
 
 544 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 j.e.n^laiive letter should give his " attendance and assistance" there, I conckide that it could not have been 
 
 (No. 3) of IW?.'); 31 wished that he should merely be present, that he should sit a silent witness of the proceedings 
 
 Aiiirii.<t. of the Council, should take no part in them, and utter no opinion on the matters brought 
 
 before him. I apprehend that being admitted to the meetings of the Council, it was intended 
 
 that he should stand in the same position as any other member of it, excepting only in the 
 
 giving of a vote. 
 
 6. If I am right in this conclusion, that it was not intended to forbid his giving an opinion 
 on matters before the Council, it follows, as a necessary consequence, that he is entitled to 
 minute on any one of the paj)ers circulated to him ; for the minuting on a circrdated paper 
 is only the substitute for an opinion orally delivered ; every paper being in theory supposed 
 to be brought iijrward in the consultations, and the circulation of papers being adopted merely 
 for convenience, and to shorten the sittings and the labour of the Council. 
 
 7. Further, if it bo admitted that he was intended thus to give his opinion in the pro- 
 ceedings of Council in the Home Department, it must be admitted, I think, that he is 
 entitled to reduce that opinion to writing, and to place it upon record with the minutes of 
 other members. 
 
 8. In expressing these views, I mean it to be understood that the opinion of the fourth 
 member is merely entitled to be placed on record, and that it is not to have the effect of a 
 note, that ])ower being, by universal assent, denied to the fourth ordinary member, except in 
 meetinfrs of the Legislative Council. 
 
 "o 
 
 9. The whole question turns on whether the fourth member, being admitted to Council in 
 the Home Department, was intended to be a mute there or not. It is manifest that such was 
 not the intention of Lord William Bentinck when the point was first raised, and I cannot 
 think that it was the intention of the Court of Directors when they gave their final opinion. 
 And if they intended to confer on the fourth member the right of discussing, the right of 
 minuting, but without voting, cannot, I think, be denied to him. 
 
 10. That right I have no doubt will always be exercised by the fourth member of Council 
 as heretofore, with discretion and tact ; it will be acted upon only in matters wiiich appear to 
 be of importance, and it will not be called into play on papers connected with the ordinary 
 routine of executive administration in the Home Department. 
 
 11. Sir Frederick Cume observes, at his close of his minute, that he does not wish to 
 pursue the question further. But I submit that, the question having been raised, it had 
 better not be left suspended ; and I would suggest that his Honour, the President, should be 
 requested to record his opinion upon it, and that the pajjcrs should then be sent to the 
 Honourable Court, in order that they may authoritatively confirm the observance of one form 
 of pi'ocedure or the other in the consultations of the Home Department. 
 
 (signed) Dalhoude. 
 (True copy.) 
 
 (signed) H. 31. Elliot, 
 Secretary to Government of India with the Governor-General. 
 
 MnsLTE by the Honourable Major-General Sir J. H. Littler, g.c.b., dated 17 June 1850. 
 
 l-'ourth member of WiTH reference to the particular case which has given rise to the present inquiry regard- 
 Cowncil. ing the ])osition of the fourth ordinary member of Council, I have little hesitation in expressing 
 
 my opinion that, arguing upon the iiicts as they are stated by the Honourable Mr. Lowia in 
 his minute, viz , " tiiat the case belongs to a class upon which it is our practice to seek the 
 advice of the fourth ordinary member of Council," and that he accordingly " advised, as 
 usual, without ol)jcctii)ns being taken," it would be impossible to deny the right of the fourth 
 member to put his advice into writing and place it on record. 
 
 The point whicii 1 understand to be now iinmcdiately at issue has reference to the Home 
 Department only, and I apprehend the question to be simply tliis : whether the fourth ordinary 
 member attending all tlic meetings of the Council in the Home I)epartment, and having all 
 the papers of that department which are disposed of in circulation sent to him, is also to be 
 considered entitled to take a share in the deliberations of the Council on :dl questions 
 belonging to tiiat department of whatever doscri]itioii, legislative or executive. 
 
 I further understiuid that the ])artieular object of the in(juiry has been (and the minute of 
 tlic (j<>vcrnor-(icneral seems to be directed to that end) to ascertain what is the j)ositinu in 
 that resj)ect of the fourth ordinary member, as laid down in the past instructions of the 
 Court. 
 
 After a careful perusal of the Honourable Court's several despatches on the subject, 1 am 
 of (ijiinion that the instruction.-- tliereiu contained, in respect of the position of the Iburtli 
 member of Conncil, da not admit of Ix.ing construed to mean more than that it is expedient 
 that he sliotdd be jin-scnt at all nicrting.s connected witli tlie internal aduiinistralion of tlie 
 country (cxcejit in tlie I'olitical and jMilitary l)ci)artmcnts,) but that, as regards the executive 
 departments of that administration, he should take no part in the deliberation of the Council, 
 shall exjircssly desire to avail themselves of his assistance. 
 
 As regards minuting, I cannot suppose that it was contemplated there should be any 
 
 restrictions
 
 IlliCll 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEKKITOIilE S. 54^ 
 
 resti-ictions in tliat respect, wlicnever it might be iloemwl nc(;c.s.<;uy to seek llic advice of Apiieiidix No. 
 
 the legislative niciuber in matters liet'ore the Conncil not of a legi.shitive nature. 
 
 It can scarcely be necessary tiiat I should express my entire acquiesecnce in the opinion 
 recorded by the Most Noble the Oovcrnor-CJeneral regarding the great value to (Tovcniment 
 of the office of the legislative member of Council. 
 
 (signed) //. f.itlkr. 
 
 Minute by the Honourable Sir F. Currie, Bart., dated 20 June 1850. 
 
 T HAVE read the minutes recorded by the Governor-General and two members of Council- I'o.'ition <>!' 
 upon the question referred to in my minute of the 29th November of last year. lourtli oriliii;iry 
 
 I have only to observe, that the (iovernor-Gcneral has not quite correctly understood my "" "" "' ' 
 remark at the close of my minute. I did not say tiiat I di(i "not wisii to pursue the (jucs- 
 tion furtiier." I wrote that I did " not desire to rai-se the question discussed in the paper 
 submitted by Mr. Ilalliday any further;" and I went on to say, that I quite concurred in 
 the propriety of the fourth ordinary member being present at all sittings of the Council in 
 the Home Department. I had and have no desire to raise again that question, or the dis- 
 cussions connected with it, which form the chief suiiject of the Secretary's memorandum. 
 I quite agree with the Most Noble the Governor-tieneral, that the question of the right of 
 the fourth ordinarj- member of Council to record minutes on papers in no way conncctefl 
 with legislative subjects, and not specially referred to him for opinion, should be referred for 
 the decision of the Coiu-t of Directors, who can best interpret their own instructions, con- 
 veyed in their legislative lettci-s. No. 22, of 1843, dated 29 Novetnber, and No. 12, of 1844, 
 dated 5 June, whicii both of them state distincth-, that though the Fourth ordinary member is 
 to be present at all meetings of the Council for internal administration, he " has no voice in 
 its jjroceedings except for the purpose of making laws and regulations.'' I understand this 
 to mean that he has no right to jjlace his opinion on record in its proceedings in such cases. 
 I shall not be sorry to find that I am mistaken ; but I think the question should not be left 
 in doubt. 
 
 (signed) F. Currie. 
 
 Minute by the Honourable J. E. D. Bethune, dated 29 June 1850. 
 
 There Is only one point on which, after perusal of the minutes of the Govei'nor-General Duties of lumih 
 and Sir John Littler, and the additional minute by Sir Frederick Currie, I wish to add a "'fiiiimy memlx-r 
 few words to what I have already written. I hope it is clearly understood that I am included 
 among those by whose universal assent, as stated by the Governor-General, it is agreed 
 that no spoken or written opinion of the Iburth ordinary member can have any effect as a 
 vote, when difference of opinion arises in the Council. I think tliis is clearly expressed in 
 my former minute : but .as the words " right" and "entitled" occur in several places in these 
 minutes, I wish to stand clear of all doubt in what sense only I understand those words to 
 be correctly used. 
 
 The whole turns upon the expressed desire of the Honourable Court that the fourth 
 ordinary member shall give his attendance and assistance while business other than legislative 
 is discussed in the Home Department. Sir Frederick Currie seems to attach importance to 
 the phrase of the despatch, that he " has no voice in its proceedings." It Is, perhaps, idle to 
 deal in verbal criticism when we are on the point of asking those who employed this phrase, 
 in what sense it was used, but to me it is plain that voice is here used for vote. 
 
 It seems to me Impossible to think that the Court on such an occasion, while directing 
 the attendance and assistance of the fom-th ordinary member, would, in this pointed manner, 
 have warned him that he was to keep silence there. Sir Frederick Currie assumes that he 
 is to give his opinion on such que^Ions only as arc specially referred to him. I have 
 already expressed my opinion orally in Council, that this would have at least the appearance 
 of placing him in a position of inieriority with respect to liis legislative colleagues, which It 
 would not be seemly that he should occupy. At any rate it would have to be borne in mind 
 that, after taking the opinion of the other members of Council whether or not his oj)inion 
 should be asked, it would be necessary also to consult his pleasure whether It would be 
 given. That at least must be conceded to him, or he would sink at once to a mere officer of 
 the others. There might also be difference of opinion among the other members of Coimcil 
 Avhether or not his opinion should be asked : what an opening for misunderstanding and real 
 or supposed affronts, and be perhaps requested to withdraw, that the question might be more 
 freely discussed in his absence ! I would certainly not [jlace myself voluntarily In such a 
 position ; and unless it were fully understood that I was to exercise my own judgment in 
 giving my opinion at all meetings which I was requested to attend and assist, I should 
 respectfully decline going through the new form of giving such assistance, or giving it In 
 any way that should appear to me to derogate from that position of equality which ought to 
 subsist .among those assembled round the same Council table in all things except where th.c 
 law has otherwise provided. 
 
 (signed) J. E. D. Bcthunr, 
 
 (True copies.) 
 East India House,! '^- ■^- Feacock, 
 
 2-1 April 1853. J Examiner of India Correspondence. 
 
 0.10. 324
 
 546 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 11. 
 
 Ajipindjx, No. Jl. PAPERS relating to the Removal of Mr. Lewin from the Office of Jud^e of the Sudder 
 
 Dewanny Adawlut, also from his provisional Appointment to Council. 
 
 East India House,! 
 13 May 1853. (' 
 
 JAMES C. MELVILL. 
 
 Note. — Several of the Papers included in this Return, together with Copies of the Pro- 
 ceedings referred to, were presented to the House of Commons on the 21st March 1849. 
 
 LIST. 
 
 PAOB 
 
 Letter from Goverament, Fort St. George, to Court of Directors, dated 22 October (No. 24) - 1846 - 547 
 Letter from Government, India, to Court of Directors - - dated 12 December (No. 20) 1846 - 551 
 Letter from Government, Fort St. George, to Court of Directors, dated 13 November (No. 25) 1846 - 551 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 17 November (No. 26) 1846 - 553 
 
 Ditto ... - ditto dated 18 December (No. 30) 1846 - 553 
 
 Ditto - - . - ditto - . . . . dated 22 December (No. 31) 1846 - 553 
 Ditto - . - - ditto - - -- - . dated 22 December (No. 32) 1846 - 553 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto datede January (No. 9) -1847-554 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 19 Januarj- (No. 10) - 1847 - 554 
 
 Ditto ... - ditto dated 9 Maich (No. 14) - 1847 - .554 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 26 March (No. 17) - 1847 - 554 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto . - - - . dated 10 July (No. 31) -1847-555 
 
 Ditto - . - - ditto ----- dated 11 August (No. 38) -1847-555 
 
 Ditto - . - - ditto dated 10 August (No. 37) -1847-555' 
 
 Ditto - - - . ditto - - _ . . dated 24 December (No. 57) 1847 - 555 
 
 LetterfromConrtof Directors to GoTcrnment of Fort St. George, dated 20 January (No. 1) - 1847 - 556 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto . - . . - dated 20 January (No. 4) -1847-5.59 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 14 April (No. 2) - 1847 - 559 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 14 .^pril (No. 7) - 1847 - 559 
 
 Ditto - . - - ditto dated 22 June (No. 13) -1847-560 
 
 Ditto - . . - ditto dated 7 July (No. 16) - 1847 - .560 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 20 October (No. -20) - 1847 - 560 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto - - - - -. dated4 April(No. 6) - -1848-561 
 
 Letter fiom Mr. Lewin lo Secretary, East India Company - dated 22 Se])tember 1846 - - 561 
 
 KTtract from the " ^ladras Spectator" dated 19 September 1846 - -502 
 
 Ditto - " Madras Atlas" ----- dated 21 September 1846 - - 563 
 
 Ditto - " Madras United Service Gazette" - - dated 22 September 1846 - - 564 
 
 Letter from Secretary, East India Company, to Mr. Lewin - dated 20 January 1847 - - 564 
 
 Letter from Mr. Lewin to Secretary, East India Company - dated 13 March - 1847 - - .564 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto . - . - . dated 24 January - 1848 - - 565 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto ----565' 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto --..-. - . - ... 566 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 8 May - - 1850 - - 567 
 
 Letter from Secretary, East India Company, to Mr. Lewin - dated 22 May - 1850 - - 66R 
 
 Letter from Mr. Lewin to Secretary, East India Company - dated 7 June - 1850 - -568 
 
 Ditto - - - - ditto dated 10 May - 1851 - - 568 
 
 Letter from Secretary, East India Company, to Mr. Lewin - dated 24 May - 1851 - - SOW 
 
 Letter from Mr. Lewin tn Scfretary, East India Company - dated 20 May - 1851 - - 509 
 
 Ditto . - - - ditto dated 12 February 1852 - - 509 
 
 Letter from Secretary, East India Company, to Mr. Lewin - dated 24 February 1852 - -570 
 
 LETTERS
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 547 
 
 LETTERS FROM INDLi. 
 
 Judicial Department, 22 October (No. 24), 1846. Appemlix No 11. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the Eust India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Para. 1. Ri:ki:iuung to our letter nf'tlie lotli February last. No. 2, and to your Honour- OutraMS in Tinne- 
 uble CoiMt's reply of the 3d June follo\viu;r. No. 12, which will bo found disposed of in our velly rlistrict. 
 Consultations of the l_8th August 18-Ki, No. 488, we have the honour to lay before your 
 Honourable Court, copy of further papers on matters ronnected with the recent outrages 
 between the Hindoos and native converts to Christianity in the Tiinievelly district. 
 
 2. The Honourable Mr. Chamicr, in a minute dated 2.3d February 1846, laid before the Cons. I'J May 184G, 
 Board a jietitiou, ])urporting to be from certain inhabitants of that district, comjjlaining of >'os. 2-5 to 3o. 
 
 the injuries they suilered ironi the proceedings of the missionaries, and the official influence President's ininuU. 
 extended to theui by the collector. He oliscrved, tiiat sonic inquiry was necessary to ascer- ■* '^i'"''-'"- 
 tain who the iictitioncrs were, and what grounds they had lor tiieir alleged grievance.s, suggest- 
 ing that the Civil and Session Judge might bectharged with this duty, and adverted moreover 
 to other petitions which were represented to have been addressed to Government on the same 
 subject. 
 
 3. From the minutes severally recorded by us, which will be found entered in our pro- 
 ceedings of the 19th Mf»y 1846, and to which we request your special attention, as conveying 
 the sentiments fully of each member of the Governnient, your Honourable Court will 
 observe, that after much discussion, we linally deemed it unnecessary to take further notice 
 of the petitions in question, as they had been already disposed of by tiic usual order, and in 
 the ordinary course. As, however, the Honourable Mr. Chamier suggested in his minute 
 of the 18th April, as a part of the inquiry proposed by him, that the Foujdaree Adawlut 
 should be ordered to lay before Government the results of the proceedings recently held in 
 the Courts of the Tinnevelly district, in cases between Hindoos and Christians, we resolved 
 to accede to this proposal, with the sole view of placing upon our records authentic informa- 
 tion for your Honourable Court on the subject of these petitions. We tlierefbre called for 
 copies of the calendars, and ol the evidence taken in the Sessions Court, with the sentences 
 of that Court, in the several recent cases which had come before the Foujdaree Uilalut from 
 the province of Tinnevell}-, in which native Christians were prosecutors, and heathens the 
 accused. 
 
 4. In the same proceedings, and with the same view, we desired the Foujdaree Udalut 
 to report in eacli case by what Judge or Judges of their Court the final sentence or order 
 was passed, together with the sentence itself, and the grounds thereof, as well as the names 
 of the head of police, and of the officers in the iMagistrates' Department, who investigated 
 the cases in tlic first instance, and forwarded them to the Court of the Principal Sudder 
 Ameen. 
 
 5. We also, in the same order, <'alled upon the Board of Revenue with reference to the 
 
 statement in the Honom-able Mr. Chamier's minute, to submit a statement of lands held in President's minute, 
 
 Tinnevelly by Protestant missionaries, or by Protestant Christians, on which a remission of •! May. 
 
 rent, or any peculiar advantage had been conceded, and under what circumstances, and by 
 
 whose recommendation and by whose orders a remission had been granted ; also a statement 
 
 of the number of revenue servants in all dei)artments in Tinnevelly, with a memorandum 
 
 showing how many of them were Protestant Christians, when first a[ipointed, and by whom 
 
 they were appointed to their offices. They were also desired to state whether the proportion 
 
 of native ('hristians in revenue employ in Tinnevelly was greater or less than in other 
 
 southern districts, and the relative proportion of the Ch.ristiau to the heatiien population of 
 
 the district. 
 
 6. On the 2oth June following, the first Judge of the Foujdaree Udalut, Mr. Waters, Jud. Cons. -28 July 
 brought to our notice a copy of a memorial which the second and third Judges had prepared 1S40, Nos. 1 to 6. 
 to your Honourable Court's address, impugning our orders of the 19th May, and submitted 
 
 copy of a minute recorded by the second Judge, yiv. M. Lewin, in support of the memorial, 
 together with one from himself objecting to the step taken by the other Judges. 
 
 7. On the 30th June, the second and third Judges themselves forwarded the memorial in 
 question, together with their minute. 
 
 8. These papers received consideration in our proceedings of the 24th July 1846. We 
 there observed that the second and third Judges had addressed your Honourable Court, not 
 only impugning our orders, but in lact setting themselves in opposition to them, witiiout 
 previously connnunicating with, or explaining their objections to us, and requesting a recon- 
 sideration of those orders ; and that tliey had assumed, without ground, and notwithstanding 
 a recent declaration to the contrary,* tliat it was the intention of Government to interfere 
 
 witli 
 
 * Extract Min. of Cons., dated 20 January 1846, No. 43, P. 2: 
 
 " His Lordsliip in Council wishes the Judges to understand that, in the ease under reference, thev are 
 not ciilied on to pass any new sentence, nor to alter their ]irevious judsjuient, but to report on the Viicts 
 and circumstances relatiiig to it, for the information of Government."' 
 
 0.10. 4 A
 
 548 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 11. witli tlie iiulejiendence of the Court, and to control its judgments. There did not appear to 
 — '- us to be anv justification for this course, and from the pa|)ers submitted by the first Judge, 
 
 the niemorial seemed to luxve been passed through the Court in an improper and hasty 
 manner. 
 
 9. We i'e<^retted to observe that gentlemen holding the higli office of Judges of the Court 
 of Foujdaree Ud;dut, should have so far forgotten what was due to the Government and to 
 their office, as to have memorialised your Honourable Court against our orders, without 
 knowing, or even seeking information as to the views or object contemplated. We pointed 
 out that it was their duty to obey those orders in the first instance, and if they had objections 
 to offer to submit them respectfully for our consideration ; and this course we remarked was 
 the more imperative on their part, inasmuch as one of the members of Government, whose 
 orders were referred to, was himself the Chief Judge, and had lately been first Puisne Judge 
 of the Court. 
 
 10. As the matter stood, we regarded the conduct of the second and third Judges to be 
 liighly improper, and justly to be condemned ; and we resolved to require them to submit an 
 exjjlanatlon of tlic unprecedented course they had adopted. Meanwhile, we returned their 
 memorial, and intimated that we could not permit our orders to be disregarded, nor would we 
 allow subordinate officers to refer such orders to your 1 1 onourable Court. We observed, that 
 if either of the Judo-es had grounfis of objection personally to those orders, which he desired 
 to bring under the consideration of your Honourable Court, the usual mode of proceeding 
 should be followed, and the memorial forwarded individually to the Government in the first 
 instance for consideration. 
 
 11. In again directing the Court of Foujdaree Udalut to furnish, without delay, the 
 information'called for by the orders of the 19th May, we apprised the second and third Judges, 
 that they \\ere in error in supposing the Government proposed or desired to exercise any 
 control over their judgments, or to interfere ^yith their independence; and observed, that we 
 could not but (eel surprised they should entertain an opinion to this effect, and venture to 
 express it without previous and deliberate inquiry, particularly when it was distinctly inti- 
 mated to them that the object of those orders was to place on the records of Government 
 authentic information on the subject matter of certain petitions which had been presented 
 to us. 
 
 12. Noticino- in the minute of the first Judge that there were observations distinctly 
 implying that official matters had been given to the public press through the instrumentality 
 of the second Judo-e of the Court, we considered it necessary to call the attention of that 
 gentleman to the statement, and to afford him, as well as the third Judge, the Register, and 
 the assistants of the Court, who could alone have official cognizance of tliese i)apers, the 
 opportunity, if they saw fit, of disavowing all connexion with their publication in the news- 
 papers. 
 
 13. We also observed that an official paper belonging to the records of the Foujdaree 
 Udalut, being a minute recorded by the first Judge on two trials at the time under his con- 
 sideration, had been inserted at length in the editorial remarks of the " Spectator" news- 
 paper of tlie 21st July, and being of opinion that the minute must have been furnished to 
 the editor by some one connected with the Court, since no other person could have had 
 access to its records, we called upon the Judges to ascertain and report whether the above 
 official document was furnished by any person attached to their office, and if so, to name the 
 individual by whom it was so furnished. 
 
 14. As the first Judge had also recorded sentiments unfavourable to the Register of the 
 Court, we requested that officer might be called ujion to place any justification of his conduct 
 before the Government that he might desire to submit. 
 
 15. On the 2d July 1846, the first Judge reported, that the second and third Judges 
 
 had upon certain untenable grounds tlirown into 
 Jl('v. 'iH July 1840, Nos. 4i)to 51. abeyance two sentences passed by himself upon im- 
 
 Juil. 'iH July 1840, No». 43. 44. portaut trials connected with the Tinnevelly distur- 
 
 „ 4 Augiist 1840. Xiis. 1. 2. banccs, and after connnenting upon the manner in 
 
 „ 18 Aufrust 1840, No. 45. which the evidence had been appreciated by his col- 
 
 „ 2&Augufitl840Nos:..V_0 10. 17 2(J 1.-^22 leagues, called upon the Government to support him 
 
 „ 1 Sciitcinber 1840, Nos. .) toS. 21 to 23. 2(j. 20. . f^. ' . ^ , ^ i- i- i ^i i 
 
 „ 8 S(,i,temlKTl840. Nos. 1. 14, with Mr. Lewin's letter. »» the exercise ot the powers vested ni lum by law, by 
 „ 15 September 1840, Nos. 1.2. ordering the execution of his sentences. 
 
 „ 22 Seiitembtr 1840, Nos. 9 to 53. ^ , 
 
 „ 2l)Hepteinlier 1840, Nos. 17. 18. 28 to 33. 40. 41. 16. On the 8th of the same month, the second and third 
 
 ,, anil 20 Octol ir 1840, Nos. 3to0. ' Judges protested against this proceeding of the first 
 
 Judge, declaring it to be a violation of the laws, and in 
 contravention of the powers vested in him, and upon the suggestion of our President, the 
 Honourable .Mr. Dickinson, proceeded, in his j)osition of Ciiief Judge, to inform himself fully 
 of the matters at issue, with the view of furnishing us with his ojjinion on the questions 
 brought before us by the first and second, and third Judges, but liis interposition, it will 
 be observed from the papers submitted, was resisted by the second Judge. 
 
 17. The voluminous correspondence which has since taken place, with the minutes of our 
 President, to which we request your special attention, will inform your Honourable Court of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TEHKITOKIES. 549 
 
 tlic full extent to which the dissensions in the Court of FonjdiUTCc Udawlut have been Appendix. No. ii. 
 carried. We had indeed at one time entertained the h()[)e that these would have sulisidcd 
 when the first excitement and irritatidii had jiasf^cd away, but we deeply regret to state, that 
 we were dii^apiiointcd in this evpeetation. and that the occurrences, as well as the minutes 
 recorded by the .ludgcs in tlie Court, witii the conunuiiicatioiis from the second Judge, pre- 
 cluded us at lengtli from indidging longer in the liope tiiat the duties of the Court could be 
 carried on by the present Judges with projiriety, and in harmony. 
 
 18. Upon carefully reviewing all the jjapcrs which have come before us, we were unable 
 to find any justification for Mr. Lewin's proceedings, or for the line of conduct he has tiiought 
 fit to pursue. We observed also this has not been the first time this officer's conduct has 
 been brought luuler the notice of Govenunent, or of your Honourable (-'ourt, for proceed- 
 ings not wholly of a dissimilar character. 
 
 19. In the ])resent instance Mr. Lewin lias acted not merely without due deliberation in 
 setting himself up against tlie Government, impugning its ])roccedings, and charging it willi 
 an intention to interfere witli the independence of the Judges, but lie has done so in the face 
 of an express declaration of Government to the contrary, and unlike the third Judge, who, 
 although a joint memorialist with Mr. Lev. in to your Honourable Court, at once ottered a 
 most ample apology for the error in which he had been led, Mr. Lewin has not even replied 
 to the c;dl upon him fin- explanation. 
 
 20. We further noticed the fact recorded by our President, that Mr. Lewin had originally 
 addressed our President at Ootacanumd, and altliough he received an assurance from his 
 Lordship, as Governor, on the 25th June last, through the private Secretary, to the effect 
 that he had entirely misappreheniled the nature and object of the orders of which he com- 
 plained, he yet persisted in placing tiie charge and imputation before Government in the 
 memorial to your Honourable Court, dated the 30th of the same montli. 
 
 21. \.r. Lewin also took upon himself, seemingly without reference to his colleagues, to 
 nterfcre and prevent tiie Chief Judge, the Honourable Mr. Dickinson, having access to 
 
 papers in the Court which he, as Chief Judge, had called for at the instance of Government, 
 and this conduct, notwithstanding that Mr. Lewin has disclaimed any intentioft to offer 
 insult, we did not cousider justifiable. The Honourable Mr. Dickinson's position as a member 
 of the Government, and as the Chief Judge of the Covu-t, entitled him to special considera- 
 tion from Mr. Lewin, and that gentleman was bound to have assumed that he could have uo 
 illegal nor improper object in calling for papers or trials from the Court. The sole object in 
 view was to obtain information wliich would enable Govurnmeut to bring the Judges liaek to a 
 sense of their duty, and it was clearly Mr. Lewin's duty to have inquired and sought infor- 
 mation before he interposed and threw back upon the Chief Judge his call on the Register for 
 papers 
 
 22. Mr. Lewiii's statements respecting Mr. Dickinson's daily and hourly communications 
 with Mr. Waters, and the imputations which Mr. Lewin has allowed himself to make, we 
 considered to be as unjustifiable as they were declared by Mr. Dickinson to be unfounded. 
 The same remarks apply to the im[)utations and insinuations with which Mr. Lewin has 
 assailed the character and integrity of the Chief Secretary, and this after it had been 
 expressly pointed out in the letter from the private Secretary to him, dated 25th June, that 
 if he had any grounds for charge or imputation against gentlemen officially engaged near his 
 Lordship's person, it should be openly and publicly preferred. 
 
 23. We considered ^Ir. Lewin's conduct also open to condemnation in his neglect to sub- 
 mit to Government, with the other Judges, the explanation required by our orders of the 
 24th July 1846, No. 433, for we could not allow him to stand in a position different from 
 the other Judges or public servants, and he was bound to reply directly, and to submit an 
 explanation equally with his colleagues. His neglect to do so, and the minutes he has re- 
 corded in reference to our orders, we viewed as highly censurable. AYe did not reipiire the 
 Judges to criminate themselves, but we desired to afford them the opportunity of disavowing 
 all connexion with the publication of the substance of the orders of Government, and of 
 official dociunents in the newspai)ers, as we considered it highly discreditable that such a 
 suspicion should be allowed to exist. The first Judge, it will be observed, has made a full 
 statement of his commimication to the press ; the third Judge has given a denial to it, and 
 the subordinates of the Court have been equally explicit; but to the same call, the second 
 Judge has not, in our opinion, made a direct reply. 
 
 24. In affording this opportunity to the Judges, we hoped they would have taken advan- 
 tage of the occasion to remove from themselves the charge of being a party in traducing the 
 character of a colleague, in articles published by the pul)lic press, in which were cert.ain 
 expressions wholly unbecoming any public officer. We were further of opinion, that the 
 language adtkessed to Mr. Waters, by ]\Ir. Lewin, in the Court-house, could neither be 
 justified nor palliated ; and we considered it as utterly indefensible and most disgraceful, and 
 the whole proceeding such as must degrade the Court, and destroy its character in the eyes 
 of the service, as well as of the entire community. 
 
 25. On the complaint of the first Judge, tliat he had been held up to ignominy and public 
 contempt by the press, through the instrumentallity, as it was alleged, of the second Judge, 
 we observed that no contradiction had been given to this statement, and, under such circum- 
 stances, we did not see how it was possible for public officers to conduct their duties. 
 
 0.10. 4 A 2 26. la
 
 550 APrENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Apiiciidix, No. 11. 26. In liis letter of the 1st September Mr. Lcwin has asserteJ, that in the matter before 
 the Government he has been made the object of party attack and missionary chunour, leav- 
 ing it to be inferred that the Government have yielded to snch intiuence. We conld not 
 permit Mr. Lewin, or any other servant of the Ilonourable Company, we observed, to use 
 language of this character with impunity. 
 
 27. Another condemnatory feature in the pi'oceedlngs and minutes of the first and second 
 Judges of the Court of Foujdaree Udalut was the higldy improper manner in wiiich the 
 question of heathen and Christian has been raised and brought on the records of the Court. 
 
 28. After giving full and deliberate consideration to all the papers connected with the pro- 
 ceedings of the Judges, and the conduct of iMr. Lewin, adverted to in tlie several instances 
 noticed above, we have deemed it necessary for the public interests, although considering 
 Mr. Lewin's high standing and peculiar position in the service, we did so with much reluct- 
 ance, to determine on tlie removal of that gentleman from the office of second Judge of the 
 Court of Sudr and Foujdaree Udalut until the pleasure of your Honourable Court shall be 
 known, and we now await your orders on the subject. 
 
 29. In regard to Mr. AVaters, we were not aware that there was anything objectionable 
 in liis original application to the Government to support him in the exei'cise of the powers, 
 which he conceived to be vested in him by law, as a single Judge of the Court, and we ap- 
 prehend that every Judge would deem it his duty to maintain unimpaired the authority 
 which the law conferred upon him. 
 
 30. But although wc thought that Mr. Waters was justified in his appeal against what 
 appeared to him a violation of the law on the part of his colleagues, we nevertheless highly 
 disapproved of his proceeding in withholding liom tliem for so many days all knowledge of 
 the course he had pursued, and of the comments he had made on the memorial prepared by 
 them for transmission to Government. 
 
 31. Mr. Waters has assigned as his reason for this course the misuse which would liave 
 been made of his comnnmication ; and has further stated, that in communicatino' with the 
 Government he expressly exempted the motives of the Judges from all question, and that he 
 submitted tlie whole of their minutes; but these grounds were not sufficient, in our opinion, 
 to justily his conduct. 
 
 32. Neither did we consider that Mr. Waters, who had expressed himself so strongly 
 against the publication of official matters in the newspapers, was justified, although in self- 
 defence, in sending to the i)ress the letter signed " Sentinel." Tiiis proceeding we deemed 
 unworthy of his higii position as first Judge of the Sudr and Foujdaree Udalut. 
 
 33. We strongly condenui the conduct of Mr. Waters in the personal altercation.? with the 
 second Judge in the Court-house, in which a want of the respect due to his high office as a 
 Judge of the Sudr Court was evident, whatever might have been the provocation he had 
 previously received. 
 
 34. Having already expressed our sentiments on the highly impi'oper reference made in 
 the proceedings of tlic Judges to the question of Christian and heathen, so foreign to their 
 duties and olHce, we could not too strongly repeat this condemnation ; and wc observed that 
 j\Ir. Waters' minutes, in the Court of Foujdaree Udalut, and his conuuunications to Govern- 
 ment, were peculiarly open to censure on this head, and called for the marked disjileasurc of 
 Government. 
 
 35. In our opinion there was nothing which could justify the many improprieties, and the 
 highly unbecoming )iersonalities, into wliieh j\Ir. Waters had fallen. They tended to prove 
 that he was not (pialified for the office he tilled, and looking to all the circumstances ad- 
 verted to, and to the inqiortance of maintaining tlie character of the Court of Sudr and 
 Foujdaree I'dalut, we felt it to be our duty, as necessary to uphold tlie public interests, to 
 remove Mr. Waters from that Court, and to appoint him to the first Zillah Judgship which 
 might become vacant, pending the orders of yoiu" Ilonourable Court. 
 
 36. Kefcrring to the third Judge, we observed from the proceedings before us, that Mr. 
 Boilcau was wanting in discretiim and judgment, and in that indeiicndence of mind and cha- 
 racter essential for the efficient perlbiinanci' of the important duties devolving on the C'ourt ; 
 and we resolved in consequence to lake an early opportunity to re[)lace that gentleman in his 
 former position of Civil and Session Judge, with tiic salary he drew before his promotion to a 
 scat in the Sudr Court. 
 
 37. In ])ursuance of the above resolutions your Ilonourable Court will observe, that wc 
 liave ai)pointed Mr. Waters and Mr. Boileaii to officiate as Civil and Session Judges of 
 Coinibatore and Ciiingleput respectively, and have supplied their jilaces in the Court of Sudr 
 and Foiijdary Udalut liy jNIr. G. S. Hooper and Mr. E. P. Timmjison. Mr. W. A. MorehcaJ 
 was appointed to officiate as a Judge of the Court on the 17tli ultimo. 
 
 38. Since disposing of Mr. Lewin's case, we have received several conununications from 
 that gpiitleniau, wliicli will be found in the correspondence now transmitted, and to which, 
 as well as to the minutes recorded thereon by our President, wc request the especial atten- 
 tion of your Ilonourable Court. We beg to state at the same time, that a few of Mr. 
 
 Lewin's
 
 SELECT COxMMirTEE ON INDIAN Tl- RKITORIES. r,r.i 
 
 oo' 
 
 Lewin's subsequent letters arc now under the consideration of Govcrnmcntj and as soon as Aiipendix, No. il. 
 disposed otj will ibrni tiie sulyect ot'a scjiarate letter. 
 
 39. On the 22d June last the acting- magistrate of Tinnevelly applied to be allowed to Rev. Cons. 28 July 
 employ tenii)orarily an extra estahlisliMicnt of 12 ]ic(ins and a dutfadar in tlie lirunnvadavcm 1840, Nos. 49. 00." 
 and Teneansy Talooks, as a precaution ro(juired by the state of feeliiii^ in the district con- "■"' •''^• 
 sequent on the result of tiic trials of the persons charged with robbery and other outrages 
 
 in the Christian villages. The aiiplication involved an additional monthly expenditure of 
 49 rupees, whicii we sanctioned, subject to the confirmation of the {government of India. 
 We direct the attention of your Honourable Court to the statements of the acting Collector 
 in this communication, as bearing upon the subject of this despatch. 
 
 40. The Foujdarec Udalut also applied for a small temporary establishment of six writers, 
 to prepare transcripts of the records of the trials called for by us, whicli we complied with, 
 and have directed their preparation without delay. 
 
 41. Your Honourable Court will observe from our proceedings of the 18th August 1846, .jud. Cons. 18 Au"., 
 No. 488, that we furnished an extract of your Honourable Court's despatch, No. 12, dated No. 45; 1846. 
 
 3d June 1846, to the Foujdarce Udalut, and desired that they would, in conformity with the 
 opinion therein communicated, instruct the several magistrates to observe it as a rule for the 
 future that all outrages of a serious character and extent, from whatever cause originating, 
 whicli might occur within their respective charges, should be promptly reported by them, for 
 the information and orders of Government. 
 
 We have, <S:c. 
 (signed) Hi/. Chamkr. 
 Fort St. George. 22 October, 1846. H. Dichinsun. 
 
 1 have signed this despatch pro forma, but I am not otherwise a party to it. 
 
 (signed) Hy. Chamier. 
 
 Judicial Department, 12 December (No. 20), 1846. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 We have the honour to submit, for the decision of your Honourable Court, the accom- Home Department, 
 panving papers, which we have received from the Government of Fort .St. George, referring 
 to the Government of India, whether it be competent to tlie Local Government to suspend 
 from the Honourable Company's service a member of it, provisionally appointed to a seat in 
 Coiuicil ; and whether it be competent, under the circumstances of the case stated in the 
 papers submitted, to a member of the Government to decline interference, or taking part in the 
 proceedings of the Government. 
 
 2. We discussed these questions in oirr minutes, as per margin, copies of which accompany Min. by the Hon. 
 
 this despatch, and we Informed the Government of Fort St. George that, in respect to the ^"' '!• ^^[jj'^ilock. 
 
 first question, there appeared to be doitbts on the legal ]iart of the ])roposed proceeding, Miirbv the^'Hon ' 
 
 while, in respect to the second part of the reference, some of the proceedings of that Govern- p. JiiUelt dated 
 
 ment, we observed, had already been submitted to your Honourable Court, and the remainder 10 December 1846. 
 
 woitld, no doubt, be forwarded without dclav ; we therefore deemed it expedient to refrain ^'i"- ^y t^^ Hon. 
 
 from pronouncing any oiiinioir on cither question, and to leave them both for the determination ","" ,',:,v^ ,0,/. 
 o '■ ,y ^^1 /I .. dated 10 Dee, 1846. 
 
 of your Honourable Court. jHi„ ^.^ ^,,3 Ho„_ 
 
 We have, &c. Sir H.Maddook. 
 
 (signed) T. II. Muddock. dated 11 Dec. 1846. 
 
 F. Millctt. 
 
 Fort William, 12 December 1846. George Pollock. 
 
 Vide, for the references from the Government of Fort St. George, Enclosures Nos. 8 to 23 
 of No. IIL, and Nos. 146 to 151 of No I. 
 
 Judicial Department, 13 November (No. 25), 1846. * 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Para. 1. In continuation of our letter in this department, dated 22d October 1846, No. 24, 
 reporting our proceedings relative to the late dissensions in the Court of Sudr and Foujdarce 
 Udalut, we have the honour to submit copy of a communication from Jlr. ^I. Lewin, giving Dated 12 October 
 cover to copy of a memorial addressed by him direct to your Honourable Court, on the subject ^^*'^' ^'"' ^^^' 
 of his removal from office. 
 
 2. With this communication we also transmit a further letter from the same gentleman, 
 together with minutes recorded by our President and the Ilonoiu-able Mr. Dickinson, as 
 well as a memorandum by the Chief Secretary, and requesting your Honourable Court's 
 particular attention to these papers, we beg to point out briefly tlie errors in Mr. Lewin's Cons. 13 November 
 statement. 1846, No. 721. 
 
 0.10. 4^3 3. In
 
 552 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM IHE 
 
 Appendix, No. 11. 3. In the first place, we beg to observe that Mr. Lewln's assertion of the Government 
 havino- acted upon secret communications, has no foundation whatever ; no private communi- 
 cations of any kind have been received, excepting the several letters sent to the private 
 secretary to his Lordship by Mr. Lewin himself, and the letter through the Chief Secretary 
 from Mr. AVaters, referred to by Mr. Lewin. In both instances, the same course was pur- 
 sued, and Mr. Lewin and Mr Waters were informed that no communications would be 
 permitted, except through the regular official and public channel of the Secretary to the 
 Government, in the Judicial Department, and accordingly not a single paper has been sub- 
 mitted to his Lordship which did not come through this channel, though ]Mr. Lewin has 
 subsequently sent several, Mr. Waters none. Further remark on this subject is, however, 
 unnecessary, as we are assured your Honourable Court will observe from the minutes already 
 submitted that his Lordship's opinions have been formed solely on the information laid before 
 him officially. 
 
 4. The Chief Secretary's memorandum in respect of the statements contained in para. 12, 
 and other portions of Mr Lewin's memorial, in which it is imputed to him that he has been 
 holdino; secret correspondence, and acting in concert with Mr. Waters, the first Judge, 
 will inform your Honourable Court that those statements are without foundation. 
 
 5. We beg also to point out, that the papers sent to Government by the first Judge embraced 
 Mr. Lewin'^Tund Mr. Boileau's as well as his own minutes, and were laid before the Govern- 
 ment officially. 
 
 6. In reference to Mr. Lev\in's statement, that the Government were bound to support 
 the majoritv of the Court on their view of the law, we beg to observe, that the Government 
 could not interfere and interpret the law summarily, as he is well aware, and that the law 
 quoted by him. Regulation IV. of 1806, was the rule of Court when a single judge had no 
 special and separate authority or power vested in him by law, and was inapplicable to the 
 case laid before Government; and it was on this point that the Chief Judge was requested 
 to assist the Government with his opinion, when, as your Honourable Court have been 
 informed, he was prevented from doing so by the second J udge. 
 
 7. The reiterated statement of Mr. Lewin, of the influence of missionaries on the pro- 
 ceedings of Government, needs no notice beyond that it rests on nothing but his own unsup- 
 ported assertion, and is utterly and entirely unfounded. 
 
 8. We beg to request the attention of your Honourable Court to the circumstance that 
 the observations of Government respecting the publication of matters in the newspapers did 
 not refer merely to the writing for them, but to the aliuse of trust and of official duty, in 
 secreth- sending to the editors of newspapers official documents and records of the Court, 
 ■with the view, as it was obvious, of depreciating the character of a colleague, and of which 
 Mr. Waters complained. 
 
 9. a\Ir. Lewin has also lost sight of the fact, that in estimating his language and conduct 
 in the personal altercation in the Court-house, the Government had before them the language 
 in which he had indulged in his minutes in the Court, and in his communications \\ith 
 Government in reference to .\ I r. Waters, and in which he has continued to indulge, with 
 greater impropriety, in the case of Mr. Dickinson. 
 
 10. Your Honourable Court will observe, from the minutes of his Lordship already sub- 
 mitted, the grounds on which Mr. Boileau and Mr. Phillips were called upon for a second 
 report on the matter of the altercation between Mv. Lewin and Mr. Waters ; and will also 
 notice, tliat in the original orders of Government upon Mr. Waters' connnunication, it was 
 expressly directed that Mr. Lewin should then be furnished with a copy of Mr. Boileau's 
 and Mr. Phillips' statements. It was therefore his duty to have offered at that time his 
 objections to the statements submitted, if he considered them in any degree incorrect, or 
 the inquiry imperfect. 
 
 11. Your Honourable Court will be fully aware, from the proceedings of Government, 
 of the circumstances which have led to the removal of Mr. Lewin at an earlier date than 
 Mr. Waters, and will also learn why the senior member of Council took no part in them. 
 
 12. Respecting the allusion to Jlr. Maclean, and Mr. Lewin's letter of the 14th instant, 
 we beg to refer your Honourable Court to the minute recorded by the Honourable Mr. 
 Dickinson, a copy of which accompauies this communication. 
 
 13. We take this opportunity of also submitting the correspondence recorded in the con- 
 n No'vember 1846 sultations noted in the margin connected with the subject ; and with reference to the question 
 No». 720-722. ' of the allowance to be drawn by Mr. Waters, subsctpient to his removal, under our orders 
 
 of the 20th October 1846, we beg to solicit the instructions of your Honourable Court. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) Hi/. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 13 November 1846. H. Dickinson. 
 
 I have signed this letter pro formd, but am not otherwise a party to it. 
 
 13 November 1846. (signed) //y. Chamier.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITOKIES. 553 
 
 Judicial Department, 17 November (No. 26), 1846. ' Appendix, No. 11. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East ludia Company. 
 
 Honouralile Sirs, 
 In continuation of our letter in this department, dated 13th November, 1846, No. 25, we 
 have the honour to submit copy of a further correspondence from Mr. M. Lewin, and of the Cons. 17 Novembe 
 minutes recorded by the members of Government connected with the late proceedings in the '®*^' ^''• 
 Court of Suddar and Foujdarree Udalut. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) H. Chomier. 
 
 Fort St. George, 17 November 1846. //. Dickinson. 
 
 •Tldicial Department, 18 December (No. 30), 1846. 
 
 To the Honourable the Coiu-t of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Adverting to our letters in this department, dated 22d October, and 13th and 17th q^^^ j^ October 
 November, 1846, Nos. 24 to 26, we have the honour to submit copy of the further cor- i846 Nos. 24. 25. 
 respondence which has taken place connected with the late proceedings in the Court of Sudder Cons. lONovembei 
 and Fouidaree Adawlut. and 1 December 
 
 '' 1846, Nos. 22. 23. 
 
 2. Your Honourable Court will observe, that having had tlie conduct of Mr. Phillips, the 
 Register of tiiat Court, under consideration, we were of opinion that that officer acted 
 irregularly and failed in his dutj' towards the first Judge of the Court, Mr. AVaters, and that in 
 preparing for the second and tliird Judges' draft of a paper of so improper a character, and so 
 entirely personal as their memorial against the Government, which he could not have signed 
 as Register, Mr. Phillips manifested a want of due regard for his own office, and mixed him- 
 self up improperly with the proceedings of the second and third Judges. We, therefore, 
 resolved to remove him to a situation In the provinces suitable to his standing in the service, 
 and we have accordingly appointed him subordinate judge of Madura, 
 
 3. We solicit the attention of your Honourable Court to the minutes on the subject 
 recorded by our Pi-esident and the Honourable Mr. Dickinson. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) H. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 18 December 1846. H. Dickinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 22 December (No. 31), 1846. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Dii-ectors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Referring to the jiapers transmitted with our letter in this department, dated 17th 
 November 1846, No. 26, connected with the proceedings in the Court of Sudder and 
 Foujdaree Adawlut, wc have the honoiu- to submit an extract from the minutes of consul- 
 tation of this day's date, together with a copy of the minute recorded by our President, to 
 which allusion is therein made. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) H. Chaviier. 
 Fort St. George, 22 December 1846. H. Dickinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 22 December (No. 32), 1846. 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 We have the honour to transmit a memorial to your address fi-om Mr. T. E. J. Boileau, 
 appealing against his removal from the office of third Puisne Judge of the Court of Suddur 
 and Foujdaree Udalut, and to observe that as this gentleman's case has been brought under the 
 consideration of your Honourable Court in the correspondence submitted witii our letter, 
 dated 22d October 1846, No. 24, we submit his Memorial without comment. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) H. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 22 December 1846. H. Dickinson. 
 
 °-'°- 4A4 JUDICLAL
 
 554 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Apiiendix, No. 11. JcDiciAL Depart^ment, 6 January (No. 9), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 We, have the honour to transmit in continuation of our letter in this department, dated 
 22d December 1846, No. 31, copies of fui'ther communications from Mr. M. Lewin, con- 
 Cons. 5 January nected with the recent proceedings in the Court of Suddur and Foujdaree Adawlut. 
 1817, No. . We have, &c. 
 
 (signed) H. Chamier. 
 
 Fort St. George, 6 January 1847. 11. Dicliinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 19 January (No. 10), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Dv to Cons ^^ continuation of our letter in this department, dated 6th January 1847, No. 9, we have 
 
 22 Janunry''l84". the honour to transmit copy of a further correspondence from Mr. M. Lewin, relative to the 
 late proceedings in the Court of Sudr and Foujdarree Udalut. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) Hy. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 19 January 1847. Hy. Dickinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 9 March (No. 14), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Jiirt. Dy. 2 March 1- I**' continuation of our letter in this department, dated 19th January 1847, No. 10, we 
 
 1847, No. . have the honoiu- to submit copy of a fiu-tlier correspondence from Mr. JVl. Lewin connected 
 
 witli the late proceedings in the Court of Sudr and Foujdarree Udalut. 
 
 2. We have hitherto forborne to notice tlie several highly improj)er and reprehensible 
 commimications received from Mr. M. Lewin since his removal from his office, deeming 
 them scarcely worthy of notice, and from an unwillingness to take any further step whilst 
 his conduct as a Judge of the Sudr Court was under reference to your Honourable Court. 
 But the letters we have recently received from Mr. Lewin are so totally subversive of aU 
 subordination, and in themselves so grossly insulting, that we can no longer tolerate them or 
 allow them to pass disregarded. We have resolved, therefore, under the existing circum- 
 stances of that gentleman's case, to forward his communications for the orders of your 
 Honourable Court, and in soliciting your attention to them as well as to previous com- 
 munications of a similar ch.aracter, to submit our opinion, that if these letters are not with- 
 drawn from the records by Mr. Lewin, with an ample apology, it is due to the Government 
 who have been thus insulted, and called for also, as an example, to prevent similar miscon- 
 duct in future on the part of the officers whose cases may be under reference to your 
 Honourable Court, that M r. M. Lewin's conduct should be visited by dismissal from the service. 
 
 3. We have instructed the secretaries to Government not to register nor record such 
 connnunications, but to rej)ort their receipt to the Government, for the purpose of being 
 dealt with in eacli case as may seem fit, either directing their return to Mr. M. Lewin if 
 not respectfully worded, or disposing of them in the usual course. 
 
 4. Wc beg to draw the particular attention of 3'our Plonoiu'able Court to the minutes 
 recorded by the mend)eis oi' Government, and to the proposed draft resolution accompanying 
 the minute of tlie President, dated 22d February last. The Honourable ^Ir. Chamier is not 
 a party to our rcconmiendation to your Honourable Court, and entered a protest against tlie 
 latter part of the draft resolution in the following words: "Seen: I protest against the order 
 in para. .'5, and am not a party to the rest of the resolution." 
 
 Wc have, &c. 
 (signed) Tweeddnle. 
 
 H. Chamier, 
 Fort St. George, 9 March 1847. H. Dickinson. 
 
 Extract Judicial Letter, from Fort St. George, dated 26 March (No. 17), 1847. 
 
 1. Wf. base the honoin- to acknowledge tlie receipt of your Honourable Court's 
 despatches in this department, dated 20th January and 3d February 1847, Nos. 1 and 2, the 
 former relating to our proceedings connected with the removal of Mr. G. J. AVaters, Mr. 
 M. Lewin, and Mr. T. E. Buileau, from their office of Judges of the Court of Sudr and 
 Foujdaree Udalut, the latter respecting the allowance to be assigned to Mr. Waters. 
 
 2. In respect to the observations contained in paras. 12, 13, and 19 of the despatch No. 1, 
 wc beg to 8ul)init copies of luiimtes recorded by the Honourable Mr. Dickinson and the Most 
 
 Noble
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 555 
 
 NoI)lo the President, dated respectively the 17tli and 23d March 1847, No. 297 and .'508, and ArP'"'''"- N">- '1- 
 to solicit your Honourable Court's attention to the explanations they convey. 
 
 3. Wo furnished copies of those paragraphs of the despatch No. 1, to Mr. Waters, Mr. Paras. 1.8. 11. : 
 Lcwin, and Mr. Boileau, as well as to the Court of Foujdaree Udalut, as respectively related ^^- IT'- ''^ '"""^ l"- 
 to them, for their intbruiation. Paris 1- !'• '•.; 
 
 E.Y. pp. 15 and 17. 
 
 4. We also furnished a copy of the despatch No. 2, to Mr. Waters, and authorised the P'^''"*' '■^- "-^ 
 Civil Auditor to p;i--is to that gentleman the salary of a ZiUah Judge retrospectively from the i.!*',''''i' ^.^ V'tl "*' 
 date of his removal from tiie Court of Sudr Udalut. from pi). 15 and'so. 
 
 Extract Judicial Letter from Fort St. George, dated 10 July (No. 31), 1847. 
 
 1. We have the honour to transmit copies of letters to our address from Mr. M. Lewin, J""c 7, 10, 13, 17 
 of the dates noted in the margin, wiiich we have not deemed to be proper communica- "'' ~^' ^ ^^' 
 lions to be placed on the records of Government. 
 
 2. We request your Honourable Court's instructions as to the mode in which communica- 
 tions, couched in such objectionable language as has been used by Mr. Lewin, are to be 
 dealt with. 
 
 Judicial Department, 11 August (No. 38), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 Para. 1. In reference to our communication of yesterday's date, we have the honour to Nof. 704 to 70S. 
 submit for yoiu" information, copy of a letter from Mr, Lewin, requesting permission to ^-^G, 547, and 709. 
 resign the Civil Service, with the view of accepting an annuity, together with copies of our 
 proceedings thereon. 
 
 2. Our President and the Members of Council have recorded minutes, of which also we 
 transmit copies, and to which we solicit the particular attention and consideration of your 
 Honourable Court, requesting at the same time to be favoured on an early date with your 
 instructions on the matter they contain. 
 
 3. Your Honourable Court will oberve that on Mr. Lewin beins informed that the orders of 
 your Honourable Court must be sougiit and obtained before any instructions could be issued 
 on his .application, he has requested that it be withdrawn, and be considered no longer in 
 force. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) Tweeddale. 
 
 H. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 11 August 1847. . H. Dickinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 10 August (No. 37), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 
 Para. 1. In continuation of our letter of the 10th ultimo, we have the honour to forward 
 
 for your Honourable Court's instructions further letters from Mr. Malcolm Lewin. H*t^'J *^' r.'' "'"^ 
 
 •' 29JulylS47. 
 
 2. On the subject of that dated the 22d July, the Honourable Mr. Dickinson has 
 recorded the accompanying minute*, to which, and its enclosures, we beg to call your pai'ti- t,"*'"^" - • . 
 cular attention. Cons. 10 August 
 
 We have, &c. 1847, No. 548. 
 
 (signed) Tweeddale. 
 
 H. Chamier. 
 Fort St. George, 10 August 1847. H. Dickinson. 
 
 Judicial Department, 24 December (No. 57), 1847. 
 
 To the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company. 
 
 Honourable Sirs, 
 
 We have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your Honourable Court's letter in this 
 
 department, dated 20th October 1847, No. 20, and to acquaint j-ou, in rejily, that, as direct 
 
 in para. 2, we have furnished Mr. j\I. Lcwin with a coi)v of that t 1 17 » m- .r. _ ..^ 
 
 -, ' , 1 > 1- • r t- 1 -.t 1 I • X • • ..1 Jud- Ext. Min.i. Cons., 7 December 1847, No. 795. 
 
 despatch tor his information, and permitted him to resign the nit,„ . ,y,^^^ . 04 December 1847 No. 82C • 
 
 Company's service, in conformity with the views of your Honour- with PajnTs recorded. ' ' ' 
 
 able Court. Pub- Dy. to Cons. 17 December 1847, No. 1131. 
 
 o.io. 4 B 2. As
 
 5o6 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Ext. Mins. Con?. 2. As connected with this snbject, and with the assertions made by Mr. Lewin in the 
 
 94 December 1847, numerous letters addressed to this Government by that gentleman, we also forward copies of 
 No. 827 A. ^Q official memorandum submitted by ^Ir. J. F. Thomas, our chief Secretary, as well as a 
 
 minute of our President of the lOtli December 1847, recorded thereon. 
 
 3. Your Honourable Court's special attention is requested to para. 8 of the foregoing 
 minute, and to his Lordship's furtlier minute of the 21st instant, referring to your letter of 
 the 20th October 1847, No. 20, Judicial Department. 
 
 Ejct. Mins. Cons., 
 24 December 1847, 
 No. 827 ; with Pa- 
 pers recorded. 
 
 4. We take this opportunity of submitting, for the infoi-mation of your Honourable Court, 
 an extract from, the minutes of consultation of this day's date, with copies of the several 
 papers and minutes of the members of Government recorded therein, which will furnish 
 information of tlie proceedings adopted for the discovery of the parties who had abstracted 
 from the Secretary's Office certain minutes of the members of Council and lesolutious of 
 Government in the Revenue and Judicial Departments, which were published in the 
 " Crescent '" newspaper. It will be observed that Mr. M. Lewin's name was incidentally 
 brought forward during the iuvestigati<ms as having written for the " Crescent ;" and it was 
 j)roposed by our President, for reasons stated, that that gentleman should be called upon for 
 definite explanation on points connected with certain letters which appeared in that paper ; 
 but, as we have now permitted Mr. Lewin to resign the service, we do not consider it neces- 
 sary to proceed furtlier in the matter. 
 
 We have, &c. 
 (signed) Tweeddale. 
 
 H. Chamier. 
 
 Fort St. George, 24 December 1847. H. Dickinson. 
 
 der Adawlut. 
 
 Despatch, dated 20th January (No. 1), 1847. 
 
 (Fort St. George, Judicial Department.) 
 
 Judicial Letter, 22d October (No. 24), 1846. 
 „ „ 13th November (No. 25), 1846. 
 
 „ „ 17th November (No. 26), 1846. 
 
 Removal of the Para. 1. In your letter of the 22d October (No. 24, of 1846) you have furnished an 
 
 Judges of the Sud- explanation of the circumstances under which you have been induced to come to the 
 
 """ " resolution of removing from their office the three Judges of the Court of Sudder and 
 
 Fonjdarry Adawlut, Mr. George Jenkin Waters, Mr. Malcolm Lewin, and Mr. Thomas 
 
 E. J. Boileau. 
 
 2. On tiie 19th May you had addressed the following instructions to the Court of 
 Foujdarry Adawlut, for the purpose of furnishing us with correct information relative to 
 the acts of violence and outrage which had taken place betwixt the Hindoo inhabitants and 
 the native converts to Christianity in the district of Tinnevelly : 
 
 " He" (the Governor in Council) "resolves at the same time, with the view of placing on 
 tlie records of Government authentic information on the subject-matter of these petitions, to 
 direct the Court of Foujdarree Udalut to lay before tlie Government copies of the calendars, 
 and of the evidence taken in tlie Sessions Court, with the sentences of that Court in the 
 several recent cases which liave come belbre the Foujdarree Udalut from the province of 
 Tinnevelly, in which native Christians have been prosecutors and heathens the accused. 
 
 " The Court will also be pleased to report iu each case by what Judge or Judges of their 
 Court the final sentence or order was passed, together with the sentence itself, and the 
 grounds thereof; also the name of the liead of police and of the office in the magistrate's 
 department who investigated the cases in tlie first instance, and forwarded them to the 
 Court of the [)rincipal Sudder Ameen." 
 
 3. On the 25th June, Mr. Waters, the first Judge of the Foujdarry Adawlut, addressed a 
 letter to (iovernment, communicating cojjy of a memorial whicii he stated that his colleagues, 
 Mr. Lewin and Mr. Boileau, had determined to submit to the Court of Directors, appealing 
 against the foregoing orders of Government, together with copy of a minute which he him- 
 self intended to record against the memorial. 
 
 4. On the 30th June Mr. Lewin and Mr. Boileau transmitted to Government a memorial 
 to tlie Court (jf Directors, the same as the copy whicli had previously been transmitted by 
 Mr. Waters. 
 
 5. On the 2d July Mr. Waters laid before Government his proceedings in certain 
 'i'innevelly trials, in which Mr, Lewin and Mr. Boileau, the second and third Judges, were of 
 opinion that the proceedings were not according to law, and requested that Government 
 would issue orders that the sentences passed by him should forthwith be executed. 
 
 6. On the 8th July Mr. Lewin and Mr. Boileau, with reference to the same proceedings, 
 solicited the interposition of Government in order to compel Mr. Waters to conform to the 
 judgment of the majority of the Court. 
 
 7. With regard to the whole of these communications from individual Judges of the 
 Sudder Adawlut, we have to observe that they ought immediately to have been returned to 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRiTOllIES. 5,57 
 
 the respective wi-itcrs, witli instructions to adhere to tlic reirnlar clianncl of official corre- Appendix^ No. 1 1 
 spondcnce. The departure from that correct ride, whicii has hecn allowed throuo-hoiit the 
 series of discussions under review, has not cnly loaded the records of Governriient with 
 irrelevant matter, but has led to much j)ersonal invective and recrimination, which might 
 otherwise have been avoided. 
 
 8. The first step in the proceedings in question, namely, that of Mr. Waters possessing 
 himself of a copy of a memorial under preparation by his colleagues, and, in his individual 
 capacity, communicating it, without the knowledge of his colleagues, to Government, with 
 his own strictures on its contents, ought, indeiiendently of the irregular channel of corre- 
 spondence, to have been reprehended as discreditable and improper. 
 
 9. The memorial itself did not relate to any personal grievance, but was in the nature of 
 an appeal from the authority of Government to that of the Court of Directors on a question 
 of official duty. You, therefore, very properly resolved that it should be returned to tlie 
 memorialists. Of the whole tone and tenor of the memorial we highly disapprove ; and we 
 regard the comments made by Mr. Lewin and Mr. Boileau, on your orders of the 19th May, 
 as unbecoming and unjustifiable. 
 
 10. The reference to Government regarding certain Tinnevelly trials by Mr. Waters, 
 and subsequent!)- by Mr. Lewin and Mr. Boileau, not having been made through the 
 regular channel of the Court, ought on that account to liavc been rejected as informal and 
 objectionable. 
 
 11. In the impers laid before Government by ]\Ir. Waters, it was represented that official 
 documents and information had improperly found their way into the newspapers, and this 
 breach of duty was imputed by him to the authors of tlie memorial. We are surprised that, 
 in drawing the attention of the Judges and officers of the Suddcr Court to the point, you 
 did not refer expressly to the notification copied in the margin,* in which the principle, that 
 public documents are only held in trust for the performance of public duties, is so distinctly 
 explained, and the violation of that principle is so positively prohibited. We observe that 
 Mr. Boileau, as well as the register of the Court and liis deputies, disavowed having com- 
 municated any official infonnation to the newspapers. A similar disavowal was not made 
 by Mr. Lewin, who has even denied the right of Government to question him on the 
 subject; and Mr. Waters acknowledged that on one occasion he had liimself published, under 
 a feigned signature, a letter relating to discussions in the (Jourt. 
 
 12. In a minute of the 22d July, Mr. Dickinson complained in warm terms of Mr. Levrin's 
 having objected to the record of the trials regarding which the Judges of ihe Foujdany 
 Adawlut had severally appealed to the authority of Government beiuii made over to him as 
 Chief Judge of the Sudder Court, and renewed the suggestion pi-eviously made by him, 
 that ^Ir. Lewin should be removed from his office. The Governor, on the other hand, 
 proposed in a Minute of the 28th July, that a communication should be made to the Judges 
 of the Sudder Court, expressing the regret felt by the Government at the warmth and the 
 personal feeling manifested by them, and at the impropriety of bringing matters depending 
 before the Court under discussion in the newspapers, and at the same time assuring them of 
 the desire of Government to maintain the Court in all its integrity and efficiency. Should 
 such a measure not have the effect of recalling the Judges to a sense of what was due to 
 their stations. Lord Tweeddale intimated his determination to resort to the necessary inter- 
 position of the authority of Government. 
 
 13. We find no satisfactory explanation, and are unable to understand why the temperate 
 and considerate course proposed by your President was not adopted by Mr. Dickinson, the 
 member of Government at the Presidency. The neglect to do so, animadverted upon in the 
 
 President's 
 
 * Extract, " Fort St. George Gazette," 22 September 1843. 
 
 Fort St. George, 21 September 1843. 
 The following Notification of the Governinent of India is republished for general information. 
 
 No. 160. — Notification. 
 
 Fort William, Foreign Department, 30 August 1843. 
 
 Some misconception appearing to exist with resp( ct to t' c power whith officers of both services have 
 over the documents ana papers whicli come ii.to their (lossession officially, the Governor-General in 
 Council deems it expedient to notify thiit such documents and papers are in no case to be made public, 
 or communicated to individuals, without the previous consent of ihe Government, to which alone tiiey 
 belong. 
 
 The officer in possession of such document.s and papers can only legitimately use them for the further- 
 ance of the public service in the discliarge of his othcial duty ; and it is to be und(>rstood that the same 
 rule which ajiplies to documents and papers applies to information of which officers may become 
 possessed officially. 
 
 By order of the Right Honourable the Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 (signed) J. Thoniaion, 
 
 Secretary to Governor of India. 
 
 Bepublished by order of the Most Noble the Governor in Council. 
 
 (signed) G. D. Drury, Chief Secretary. 
 0.10. 4 D 2
 
 558 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 11. President's minute of tiie 1st of September, is the more to be regretted, as the chief part of 
 
 the exceptionable pi-oceedings on tlie part of Mr. Waters and Mr. Lewin was of subsequent 
 
 date, and might have been prevented. 
 
 14. The subsequent letters addressed to Government severally by these two gentlemen 
 were very numerous. They were all of them liable to the same observation as to official 
 informality, and became more and more acrimonious and reprehensible. They related to the 
 topics above adverted to, and to personal altercations arising out of them, in which the writers 
 had been engaged. Mr. Lewin's letters were extremely disrespectful and insubordinate 
 towards the Government. 
 
 15. In consequence of the state of things thus described, your President, in two Minutes, 
 dated the 12th of September, proposed the removal of the three Judges; and that measure 
 was carried into effect, Mr. Dickinson dissenting as far as relates to the removal of 
 ]\Ir. Waters. It is with deep concern that we express our entire concurrence in the 
 propriety of removing the three Judges. 
 
 16. We have already animadverted on the conduct pursued by Mr. Waters at the com- 
 mencement of these proceedings, in transmitting to Government, in his Individual capacity, 
 a copy of a memorial which was only under preparation by his colleagues, and whicli might 
 have been suppressed if he had objected to it in a candid and conciliatory spirit, instead of 
 making it the ground of secret accusation. The bitter animosity also with which he assailed 
 notonty Mr. Lewin throughout the correspondence, but also Mr. Phillips, the register, who 
 had merely obeyed the instructions of his superiors, in drawing up the memorial, is such as 
 we must highly disapprove. In having recourse to newspaper publication Mr. Waters was 
 the more to blame, as he made this breach of public duty a chief ground of his complaints 
 against Mr. Lewin. Finally, the allusion to religious topics, with which Mr. Waters' 
 writings abound, is strongly to be condemned, as evincing a want of sound judgment, and 
 of a proper regard for tl;e relation in which the Government stand towards its native 
 subjects. 
 
 17. Mr. Lewin was deserving of severe censure for the memorial and the minute relative 
 thereto. Instead of atoning for that impropriety, he has greatly aggravated it by the whole 
 tenor of his subsequent correspondence. He has reproached the Government with being 
 controlled by party influence, and has disputed and insulted their authority. He has assailed 
 individuals whose conduct was not under his cognizance. In the face of positive assurances 
 furnished to him, he has persisted in imputing wrong motives and views to the Government ; 
 and, giving way to his excited feelings, he has thrown off all regard to subordination, and has 
 permitted himself to use language highly intemperate and offensive. He has not only failed 
 to take advantage of the opportunity afforded him to disavow, if he could do so with a due 
 regard to truth, having given publicity in the newspapers to official information and docu- 
 ments relating to subjects under discussion betwixt himself and his colleagues, and betwixt 
 the Government and the Sudder Court, but he seems even to lay claim to a right to commit 
 this breacli of the express orders quoted above, as well as of the most obvious principles 
 of public duty. 
 
 18. The offence of Mr. Boileau, the third Judge, consisted chiefly in his participation in 
 the objectionable memorial and minute accompanying it. Of this conduct we have already 
 expressed our strong disapprobation ; and we think it right to confirm your resolution, 
 transferring him to a Zillah Court, with the same allowances he received previously to his 
 promotion. 
 
 19. The proceedings which have been under review had their origin in occurrences con- 
 nected with missionaries and native converts to Christianity ; and we have observed with 
 deep concern tiie dis[)ositlon evinced by all parties to give their disputes a religious cliaracter. 
 This disposition, so incompatible with the cahn and impartial administration of justice, is not 
 less at variance with those princii)Ies of policy ujwn which it has been the uniibrni object of 
 the Briti.^h Legislature, and of the pubhc authorities in tiiis country', that the Government 
 of India should be conducted. It cannot too strongly be deprecated. In particular, our 
 attention has been attracted to a circumstance entirely new to us ; we mean the use of the 
 term " heathen" to signify the people of India. As ai)plied to Hindoos, or to Hindoos and 
 Mahomedans conjointly, it cannot but be felt as an opprobrious epithet. We consider it to 
 be rejnignant to that regard for the feelings of the people which forms an essential part of 
 genuine toleration. We .--hould therefore have expected that the phrase " heathen" would have 
 been censured by Government on the first occasion of its being used in official correspon- 
 dence; and we have observed with equal surprise and disapprobation, that the phrase is 
 adopted in the proceedings of the Government itself, and in the very letter now under reply. 
 
 ' You arc aware of our strong impression that it is the duty of Government, and not less so 
 
 of its officers, to stand aloof from all missionary labours, either as promoting or as opposing 
 them. Towards that end it is indisi)ensal)le that official language should not be employed 
 which is without meaning, unless as it has reference to the object of such labours. We shall 
 for the future rely on your exercise of sound discretion, as well as of vigilant attention, in 
 carrying these views into effect. 
 
 20. We are of opinion that no useful end would be answered by transmitting to us coi)ies 
 of the Timievelly trials ; and we desire that no further steps be taken for the purpose. We 
 further desire that these and any similar proceedings may not be taken out of the usual 
 course of judicial inquiry. 
 
 Public
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRIluUIES. 559 
 
 Public Department, 20 January (No. 4), 1847. Appemlix, N". 
 
 Our Governor in Council at Fort St. George. 
 
 Para. 1. Tn our dosiiatcli in this (lepartmnnt, of thn 17tli September 184o, Xo. .30, we 
 announced the appointment of Mr. Malcohn Luwin to be a provisional ember of Council 
 for Madras. 
 
 2. We have now to acquaint you that we have cancelled that appointment 
 
 Wc are, 
 
 (signed) . . ^ 
 
 London, 20 January 1847. Sec. &c 
 
 "\Vc are, &o. 
 (signed) J. \V. Ilngg, 
 
 Judicial Depaiitment, 14 April (No. 2), 1847. 
 
 Our Governor-General of India in Council. 
 
 We have received your letter in this department (No. 20) of the 12th December last, Removal of tlie 
 relative to a reference from the Government of Fort St. George, for your opinion with J"JKe3 ofthe Sn 
 regard to their competency to suspend from the Company's service a person holding a pro- '{[^ Adnwlut ut 
 visional appointment as a member of Council, and witli regard to tiie competency of a mem- •"' '^'"' 
 ber of the Government to decline taking part in its proceedings ; and in reply, we have to 
 refer you to our despatcii* of this date, to the Government of Fort St. George. * (No. 7.) 
 
 AYe are, &c. 
 (signed) J. W. Hogg, 
 
 H. St. G. Tucker, 
 London, 14 April 1847. &c. &c. 
 
 Judicial Department, 14 April (A'o. 7), 1847. 
 
 Our Governor in Council at Fort St. George. 
 
 Judicial Letter, 18 December (No. 30), 1846. 
 22 „ (No. 31), „ 
 
 22 „ (No. 32), „ 
 
 diir Adawlut. 
 
 1. The letters noted abov^e, have reference to proceedings connected with the removal of Removal of tlie 
 the Judges of the Court of Suddur Adawlut. Judges of tlie Sad 
 
 2. In the letter of the 18th of December (No. 30), you inform us tliat yon were of 
 opinion that Mr. Phillips, register of that Court, " acted irregularly, and tailed in his duty 
 towards the first Judge of the Court, Mr. Waters, and that in preparing for tiie second and 
 third Judges, draft of a paper of so improper a cliaractcr, and so entirely personal, as their 
 memorial against the Government, whicli he could not have signed as register, Mr. Piiillips 
 manifested a want of due regard for his own office, and had mixed himself up improperly 
 with the proceedings of the second and tliird Judges." You state that you have therefore 
 removed him to the situation of subordinate Judge of Madura. 
 
 3. You will have learned from our despatch of the 20th January (No. 1 ), that, improper 
 as the memorial is considered by us to have been, we were of opinion that Mr. Phillips had 
 "merely obeyed the instructions of his superiors;" and in reviewing the whole procecdin"-s, 
 we have not found i-eason to suppose, in opposition to Mr. Phillips' assurance to the con- 
 trary, that any disrespect was Intended by him towards j\lr. Waters or the Government. 
 We should therefore have been prepared to acquiesce in your decision if you had left him in 
 the office of registrar, but as you have deemed it expedient to transfer him to another office, 
 we trust that you will find an early opportunity of promoting him, in a manner whieii you 
 may consider consistent with the interests of the public service. 
 
 4. With your letter of the 22d of December (No. 32), you transmit to us a memorial 
 from Mr. Boileau, appealing against his removal from the office of Judge of the Court of 
 Suddur Adawlut. We have already shown that we consider ]Mr. lioilcau dcservinn- of 
 gi-eater lenity than ^Mr. Lewin or Mr. Waters; but the perusal of his memorial has not 
 altered the opinion we have expressed in our despatcii of 20tii January (No. 1), 1847, 
 approving of his removal. You will therefore apprise him that we cannot comply with the 
 prayer of his memorial. 
 
 5. The Government of India have connnunicated to us their reply to the reference which 
 you had made to them with regard to the competency of the Local Government to suspend 
 from the Company's service a member of it provisionally appointed to a seat in Council, and 
 also with regard to the competency of a member oi' Council to decline taking part in its 
 proceedings. 
 
 6. On the former of these questions, we have to state, that the competency of the Local 
 Government to suspend one of our servants from the service extends to the case of a civil 
 servant provisionally appointed by us to succeed to the office of member of Council ; and as 
 
 0.10. 4^3 a person
 
 56o 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Api-erdix, No. 11. ^ person so suspended could not, under 53 Geo. 3, c. 155, s. 83, be_ restored to the service 
 without the consent of the Commissioners for the Affairs of India, it follows that he could 
 not assume office under such provisional appointment, if" the contingency named in it should 
 intei-mediately happen, until the authorities in England had notified to you the fact of his 
 restoration to the service. 
 
 7. Regarding the second queston, we have, in the first place, to state that Mr. Dickinson's 
 conduct was most unjustifiable in hurrying on tlie decision on the question submitted to 
 Council in the two minutes of Lord Tweeddale, dated the 12th of September; the resolu- 
 tions of council were issued on the 17th September, although Mr. Chamier was expected to 
 return, and did return to the Presidency on the following day. This precipitancy was the more 
 
 . improper, as the Governors recommendations were only partially adopted by Mr. Dickin- 
 son. Mr. Cliamier was thus excluded from taking a part in very important proceedings in 
 which it ought to have been the wish of his colleague to afford him the opportunity of having 
 a voice. 
 
 8. We must also express our entire and unqualified disapproval of Mr. Chamier's conduct 
 in refusing to take part in proceedings brought forward subsequently to his return to the 
 Presidency. This failure in his bounden duty is more particularly deserving of censure, as 
 the head of the Government had requested to be made acquainted with his sentiments, and 
 was entitled to demand the cordial assistance of a gentleman placed in Council for that 
 
 express purpose. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) J. W. Hogg, 
 
 H. St. G. Tucker, 
 London, 14 April 1847. &c. &c. 
 
 tfr. M. Lewin. 
 
 Judicial Department, 22 June (No. 13), 1847. 
 Our Governor in Council at Fort St. George. 
 
 Our letter of the 20th of January last will have apprised you of the severe punishment 
 with which we have visited the insubordinate and indecorous conduct of Mr. Lewin. Severe 
 as that punishment undoubtedly is, we might have felt it our duty to vindicate the respect 
 due to you, by making the example even more impressive, if we had had before us the very 
 offensive language to n-liicli you have called our attention in your despatch of the 9th of 
 March. We are willing to hope that the course we have already taken will have recalled 
 Mr. Lewin to a proper sense of his position in relation to the Government he is appointed 
 to serve ; and as the correspondence now before us is antei'ior to his knowledge of our pro- 
 ceeding's, we shall take no further notice of it at present tlian to repeat for your satisfaction 
 our determination to uphold your just authority in the consideration of any measures which 
 may be essential to its vindication. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) H. St. G. Tucker, 
 J. L. Lushington, 
 
 London, 22 June 1847. &c. &c. 
 
 Extract Judicial Letter to Fort St. George, dated 7 July (No. 16), 1847. 
 
 Para. 1. In your letter in this department, dated the 26t]i of March 1847 (No. 17), you 
 have reported the manner in which you acted upon the instructions conveyed to you in our 
 despatch under date the 20th of January and 3d of February 1847 (Nos. 1 and 2); of 
 these proceedings we approve. 
 
 2. We do not consider it necessary to resume the discussion of any of the questions to 
 which our despatch of the 20th of January had reference. 
 
 Mr. M. Lewin. 
 
 Judicial Department, 20 October (No. 20), 1847. 
 
 Our Governor in Council, at Fort St. George. 
 
 Para. 1. We have received your letters in this department, dated the 10th July (No. 31), 
 and the 10th August (No. 37), 1847, forwai-ding connnunications addressed to your Govern- 
 ment by Mr. Malcolm Lewin, formerly one of the Judges of tiie Sudder Adawlut; and also 
 your letter dated the 11th August (No. 38), 1847, respecting an application from the same 
 gentleman for leave to resign tiie Compimy's service, with a view to the acceptance of an 
 annuity on the Civil Fund. You solicit our instructions on the contents of these letters. 
 
 2. The intemperate and insulting terms in which Mr. M. Lewin has so frequently 
 addressed your Government and this (.'ourt, since his removal from the Sudder Adawlut, 
 have been regarded by us rather as the cbullition.s of a mind under violent excitement, and 
 therefore incapable of deliberate reflection, than as conveying imputations against your 
 Government or any one of its members, which called for any i)roceeding on your part to 
 disprove or to repel them. The most indulgent interpretation which can be given to that 
 
 gentleman's
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 561 
 
 gentleman's conduct is, that he was liimself unconscious of its impropriety. Wc have never Appendix, No. H 
 
 regarded his gross assertions as calhng for explanation or defence from the individuals 
 
 against whom they were most unwarrantably directed. The Marquis of Tweeddalc's con- 
 duct throughout the proceedings connected with Mr. M. Lewin's removal has, as you are 
 aware, received our cordial approbation, and we liave read with much satislliction the follow- 
 ing statement of his Lordship's sentiments: — "I shall take the liberty to add, thiit so far as 
 Mr. M. Lewin is personally concerned, I can have no desire Init that he should retire, as 
 other gentlemen of the Honourable Company's service, with all the advantages to himself 
 and his family secured bv the Honourable Company's anmiity." Our feelings towards Mr. 
 Lewin entirely correspond with these expressions of his Lordship. Wc did not hesitate to 
 mark our displeasure at Mr. Lewin's misconduct, and to uphold the authority of your 
 Government, by confirming your resolution to remove him irom the high office of Judge of 
 the Sudder Adawlut, and still further by cancelling Ids appointment to succeed to a seat in 
 Council. But we sliould be very reluctant to proceed to the extreme measure of punish- 
 ment usually reserved by us for cases of moral turpitude, by dismissing him from our service, 
 and thereby depriving him and his family of the benefits of the retiring fund, towards which 
 our servants are required to contribute. We trust that I\Ir. Lewin, to whom we desire you 
 to communicate this despatch, will not persist in a total disregard of the duties of subordina- 
 tion and respect towards the constituted authority under which he serves ; and in this hope 
 we authorise you, if he shoidd make an application in becoming terms, to comply with Mr. 
 Lewin's wish for jjcrmission to retire from our service, with the view of accepting an 
 annuity on the Civil Fund. 
 
 3. We approve of your resolution reported in your letter of the 9t,h of March last (No- 14), 
 not to place on record representations so unfounded and objectionable as those which form 
 the subject of the present despatch. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) H. St G. Tucker, 
 J. L. Lusldngton, 
 London, 20 October 1847. &c. &c. 
 
 JiiDiciAL Department, 4 April (No. 6), 1848. 
 Our Governor in Council at Fort St. Georae. 
 
 o 
 
 Para. 1. In your letter in this department, dated the 24th December last (No. 57), you Reply to Court's 
 acquaint us that, in conformity with the views expressed in our despatch of the 20th October orders regarding 
 last, you have permitted Mr. Malcolm Lewin to resign the Company's service, in order to ^^^' ^^' ^®^'°* 
 his acceptance of an annuity on the Civil Fund. At the same time you again draw our 
 attention to circumstances connected with that gentleman's removal from the Sudder Court, 
 and from the provisional appointment to a seat in Council, regarding which our sentiments 
 have already been communicated to you. 
 
 2. We learn also from your present letter, that copies of minutes and other papers had 
 been surreptitiously abstracted from the office of the secretary to Government by native 
 sei-vants on his establishment, and had been published in a newspaper, the " Crescent." We 
 presume that besides Jyasawmy, the chief offender, every person implicated in so unjusti- 
 fiable a proceeding has been dismissed from the public service, and that measures ha\e been 
 taken for securing the records of Government from any such abuse for the ftiture. It seems 
 to us that the superintendence over the establishment must have been very lax and inefficient, 
 when such a practice coidd continue for a considerable time without detection, after atten- 
 tion had been drawn to its existence. 
 
 3. With respect to the proof obtained from the printer of the "Crescent," that Mr. M. 
 Lewin was in the habit of supplying articles for pubhcation in that newspaper, relative to 
 the proceedings of the Sudder Court, and to the measures of Government, (a fact not denied 
 but defended liy that gentleman), it is unnecessary in this stage of tlie transaction to make 
 any observations on the circumstances attending it. In any similar case, however, w-e direct 
 that until our opinion can be ascertained, the Government shall remove from office any 
 person who, in opposition to orders which have been repeatedly given, no less than to the 
 most obvious principles of duty, shall be known to publish the official records to which he 
 has access, or even his own writings, for the purpose of thwarting the views of the Govern- 
 ment which he serves. 
 
 We are, &c. 
 (signed) H. St. G. Tucker, 
 J. L. Lusldngton, 
 London, 4 April 1848. &c. &c. 
 
 Correspondence with Mr. M. Lewin. 
 
 Sir, Madi-as, 22 September 1846. 
 
 The Government of ^Madras have removed me from the office of second Judge of the Court 
 of Sudder and Foujdarry Adawlut, as stated in " Extract from the Minutes of Consultation," 
 under date 17th September 1846, "until the pleasure of the Honourable Court of Direc- 
 tors, to whom the whole correspondence wiU be submitted, shall be known." The cause of 
 
 0.10. 4 B 4 this
 
 56a APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 ApricrKlix, No. II. t^"" measure is not very apparent in tlie proceedings of the Government. I will, however, 
 — — pledge my honour to the Court to show by the next overland mail that it originates in the 
 
 misconduct of the Government, and is attributable to no other cause. 
 
 A o-eutlonian of liigh rank and station, to whom I submitted the papers, returned them 
 with the following remark : " I observe, that in this State paper there is no charge whatever 
 of malversation in your office, or even of neglect of your duty ; nor does it disclose any other of 
 the grounds wliich are usually deemed a sufficient foundation for the removal or suspension 
 of a liio'h judicial officer. I therefore trust, that a very short consideration of the case by the 
 Home Authorities will lead to your immediate reinstatement; they will probably be of 
 opinion that all the fractional charges brought against you might affijrd very good reasons for 
 dismissing a butler or footman, but not for removing a high civilian or a Judge." 
 
 Although my moral character is not attacked by the Government, and the enclosures will 
 show you the estimation in which it is held in public, still there is a certain stain cast upon 
 every one's fame ^vhom the Government removes from office, even though tlie act may in 
 reality indicate nothing more than malversation or corruption in the Government. 
 
 This stain I call upon the Honourable Court to remove from me ; the loss of pay I am 
 not insensible to, but I leave that matter out of the question when considering loss of 
 character. 
 
 It is probable, on the Government's own representations, my reinstatement will be imme- 
 diately ordered ; for the most that has been alleged against me is, that I have shown a deter- 
 mination to uphold the honour and independence of the Court of which I was a Judge, and 
 opposed myself to the Government : the necessary result of the latter attempting to foi-ce the 
 majority of the Court into acts of injustice, directed to the forcible conversion of the Hindoos 
 to Christianity. 
 
 Whatever opinion the Honourable Court may come to, I beg at once to state that the case 
 admits of no compromise, and tliat I shall be never satisfied until the misconduct of the 
 Government is laid open to public view, and until my character is as publicly vindicated as 
 it has been publicly assailed by my removal from office. 
 
 The Government having on a late occasion refused to forward a joint memorial of Mr. 
 Boileau and myself, I am constrained to adopt this medium of communication. 
 
 To the Secretary, I have, &c 
 
 East India House, London. (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 Extract from the "Madras Spectator," 19 September 1846. 
 
 " We learn from the Gazette of last night that the Marquis of Tweeddale has appointed 
 W. A. Morehead, Esq., to officiate as second i'uisne Judge of \\\e Court of Sudr and 
 Foujdarry Adalut until further orders ;" or, in other words, that his " Lordship has been misled 
 into (at least) temporarily suspending the functions of the holder of that ap])ointment, whose 
 uncompromising resistance to the attack made on the honour and independence of the Court, 
 to"-ether with his stand against the illegal assumption of one of his colleagues, has given so 
 much anoyance to the feeble, but at the same time oppressive Government, which sits like 
 an incubus upon the vital energies of Madras. That some such extreme measure would be 
 resorted to, by way of cutting the Gordian knot of those difficulties wherein the Marquis 
 has been betrayed by mal-advisers, was long ago bruited abroad ; but we confess that our 
 reliance on his Lordship's good intentions, if not on his wisdom, occasioned us to attach but 
 little credence to the tale. We did not imagine that even his vision could fail of discerning 
 the perilous nature of such a course towards a high pubHc servant, who stood up merely 
 in the discharge of his duty as a just judge, and a defender of the integrity of that power 
 which liad been assailed from without. We reckoned, however, witliout our host, and 
 gave his Lordshij) credit for more than he possesses. Had he taken similar measures with 
 the first Judge, Mr. Waters, whose opposition to the law and to the Court was at the 
 bottom of the tinliappy differences wiiicli have embroiled the Executive and judicial autho- 
 rities, there would have l)een less reason for complaint, because we should have tluis seen 
 evidenced a desire to administer impartial justice between the conflicting members of the 
 Foujdarry Adalut, but the displacing of the champion of the Court's privileges, and the 
 withstander of unauthorised inflictions on the native population, while the party who forced 
 him into resistance by ill-advised proceedings, is suffered to retain his seat, betrays such a 
 one-sidedness on tlie part of (jovcrnment as must strike even the least penetrating among 
 observers. Tlierc is, liowever, good liound uj) in the evil, for the matter cannot of course 
 rest here, and when it comes to l)e thoroughly sifted by superior power, there will be large 
 displays of unavailing ])enitencc with some who now conceive that they have triumphed. 
 \\(i do not envy the first .fudge and his supporters either their feehngs or their success of 
 momentary endurance; mcanwliile it is gratifying to reflect, that the gentleman chosen to 
 ofliciate as second Puisne .ludgc of the Court is not only one of tiic ablest civij servants of 
 Madras, but likewise the very last person who would abet Mr. Waters' pretensions, or play 
 the game of Mr. Thomas." 
 
 " Since tiie foregoing article was written, we have received jinformation which leads us to 
 apjireliend that our strictures on the apparent partiality of the Marquis are not altogether 
 well f'(junded. His order, it a])pein-s, was applicable in the way either of suspension or 
 removal, to Mr. ^\'aters as well as to the second Judge, but the Honourable Mr. Dickinson, 
 whose jiart in fanning the strife between Government and the Court says little for his judg- 
 ment
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. .jfjg 
 
 mcnt or good feeling, is under.^tood to have taken it upon himself to duhiy the operation of it Api.endix, No. 11. 
 
 with reference to the first .lu'Jge, vvlio thus eseajjos his jjunislimcnt for a season. If this be 
 
 really the work of Mr. Dickinson, we can say only that we esteem his proceedings as im- 
 proper as they are questionable in point of legality and justice. Tlic Marrpiis, however, is 
 under sucli circumstances less reprehensible than the announcenient in the (lazette had led 
 us to imagine." 
 
 Extract from the " Madras Atlas," 21 September 1S46. 
 
 " We have heard with great regret that the recent proceedings connected with the Siiddcr 
 Adawlut, the Government intimidation order, and the Tinnevelly trials, have been brought 
 to a close for the jirescnt, by the suspension of Mr. Lewin, the second Judge, and the 
 appointment of Mr. Morchead (a well-known personal friend of a very influential individual) 
 to act in his stead, and by the removal (to be carried into effect as soon as possible) of Mr. 
 Boileau, the third Judge, back to his former appointment. 
 
 " In one point of view, we confiess that this very summary and arbitrary proceeding, will, if 
 sanctioned by tlie Court of Directors, be utterly fatal to the independence of the Court of 
 Sudder Adawlut ; it will be tantamount to a declaration that the principal court of justice in 
 the Madras Presidency is to consider itself as appointed merely to cany mto effect the will 
 :uk1 pleasure of the Government, not to administer tlie laws and regulations professedly esta- 
 blished as its rule of guidance. 'Ihe public cannot fail to see that the real question (let the 
 Governor and his advisers try to disguise it as they may) upon which the two Sudder Judges 
 have been dismissed, is simply this, that they considered it their duty to maintain the letter 
 and spirit of the regulations established for their guidance, and which they are sworn to 
 uphold, against the mere will of the Government, i. e. of Lord Tweeddale alone, as advised 
 by his companions at the Neilgherries. We must say we fear the two Sudder Judges had 
 better grounds than M'e at the time were willing to believe ; for, considering the recent order 
 addressed to them by the Governor as ' an intimidation order,' and if that order, coupled 
 with the present dismissal of the two Sudder Judges, is to have its natural and probably 
 intended effect, the result will be that the Court of S>udder Adawlut will consider itself, and 
 be considered by all others, as a mere board for registering and carrying out the good plea- 
 sure of Government, and, as a necessary consequence, may henceforward be with perfect 
 propriety composed of the youngest or most 'squeezable' men in the Civil service, instead 
 of, as heretofore, its oldest and ablest members. 
 
 " One thing is obvious, that this Government does not consider it desiral)]e, far less neces- 
 sary, tliat the Company's chief Court should jtossess that which has ever been so desirable 
 for British courts of justice, namely, public confidence in the independence and unbiassed 
 nature of their decisions. 
 
 " We are sorry to say that the foregoing is not the only unfavourable, perhaps even not the 
 most unfavourable aspect cf these arbitrary proceedings. In Mr. Lewin's case we doubt not 
 that the Governor has laid ample stress on certain alleged warmth of language, said to have 
 been used by that gentleman towards his colleague, Mr. Waters (whose own language 
 though, as we hear, not perfectly cool, seems to have been favoured with an act of obli\ion), 
 and also in his official remonstrances against the recent interference of the Executive with 
 the Judicial power; but why replace him bj' Mr. Morehead in particular? and why remove 
 Mr. Boileau, against whom no undue warmtii of language can be alleged. 
 
 " It is impossible not to see the connexion between the removal of tiie Sudder Judges and 
 the late interference of the Governor in fiivour of the Tinnevelly converts. 
 
 " Such an interference, under certain circumstances and to a certain extent, we might 
 approve of; nay, we did so, believing its only object was to secure justice to those who, 
 without it, might be unlikely to meet, and we believe had not met, with fair-play at the 
 Lands of certain native heathen judicial officials. We confess the facts now before us make 
 us doubt whether we did not err in admitting any exception to the sound general rule, that 
 the Judicial power must be sacred from the authoritative interference of the Executive. 
 
 "We then, however, approved of the act of the Governor, believing it conscientiously- 
 intended to produce only the cHect we have mentioned ; but we hesitate not to say that the 
 two Sudder Judges who opposed that interference, and who were of opinion that the native 
 converts had had fair- play, are equally entitled to an avowal of our belief that they too acted 
 under conscientious convictions. 
 
 " We did approve of the Governor's interference, and we tnist we have ever shown ourselves 
 a sincere friend to the cause of missions and the spread of C hristianity, and on these grounds 
 we claim to say, both for the sake of missions and of Christianity, that from our heart and 
 soul we deprecate attempting to advance them by means wearing even the appearance of 
 persecuting those who conscientiously declined concurring in measures which, however well 
 intended, were certainly unusual and extraordinary, if not irregular. 
 
 "Nor must it be wholly forgotten, though this is a branch of the subject upon which we do 
 not wish to enlarge, that proceedings like the present will give but too strong a handle to 
 the enemies of missions to proclaim that the Madras (iovcrnment (and the Court of Directors 
 too, if they sanction these proceedings) has become a proselyting (iovernment ; a belief as 
 little calculated to produce confidence and tranquillity among their native subjects, as to 
 ensure purity of motive in any future conversions."' 
 
 0.10. 4 C EXTKACT
 
 564 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix, No. 11. ExTRACT from the " Madras United Service Gazette," 22 September 1846. 
 
 " The official Gazette of Friday announces the appointment of W. A. Morehead, Esq., 
 to officiate a^ second Puisne .Judge of tlic Court of Sudder and Foujdarree Adawlut. From 
 tliib we may infer that tlie Matquis of Twecddale has been induced, at the bidding of the 
 clique which in reality governs the Governor, to suspend the second Puisne Judge of the 
 Sudder Adawlut in liis functions. The manner of tlie temporary vacancy occurring is not, how- 
 ever, made known, and very prudently so we think, as, if facts were candidly and fully stated, 
 
 the order rcmovino' the second Judge of tlie Sudr would run somewhat in this wise : ' M 
 
 L . Esq.. second Judge of theCourt of Sudr Adawlut, is suspended from the functions of his 
 
 hifh office tor havin"- (in conjunction witli the third Judge) sternly and independently resisted 
 the unwarn-autable measures attempted on the integrity and independence of the Sudder Court, 
 and more especiallj- for having opposed the illegal assumption of the first Judge, thereby 
 thwarting tlic Clilef Secretary and his clique in their intended infliction on the natives of 
 Tinuevellv, and thus causing annoyance to the Executive.' This matter, tliough, is too serious 
 for a jest, since it is indeed deeply to be deplored that the baneful influence of a 'party' has 
 for tlie moment operated to deprive the public of the services of tlie ablest, most upright, 
 and independent judicial officers in the Com[)any's service ; one, moreover, who has been 
 selected as possessing those high qualities to succeed to the first vacancy in Council at this 
 Presidency. We have for some weeks past lieard that attempts were making to induce Lord 
 Tweeddale. on tlie reputation of bis own Govci'nment, for no otlier tiian suicidal can we 
 term an act betraying such unblushing partiality on the part of Government, that it must 
 force an investigation into tiie whole affair by superior autliority ; and the result of such 
 investigation, unless we are greatly mlst;ilven, can hardly be otherwise than of a nature to 
 induce liis Loi'dshlp to retire from public life even before the brief tenure of office remain- 
 ing to hlra shall have expired. 
 
 " Since the above was in type, we learn from the ' Atlas ' that the third .Judge of the 
 Sudr is also to be removed from his high office. We subjoin our cotemporary 's dispas- 
 * Oriq. sionate view of this aftklr, admits* that he had pre\iously a bias in favour of the measures 
 
 of Government." 
 
 Sir, East India House, 20 January 1847. 
 
 In my letter of the 19th September 1845, you were acquainted that the Court of Direc- 
 tors of the East Imlla Company had appointed you to be a provisional member of Council 
 for Madras. 
 
 I have now the commands of the Court to inform you that they have cancelled that 
 appointment. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 Malcolm Lewin, Esq., (signed) James C. Mehill, 
 
 &c. &c. &c., Madras. Secretary. 
 
 To tlie Secretary, East India House, &c. &c. &c. 
 Sir, 
 
 I HAVE had the honour to receive your letter of date the 20th .January last, informing me 
 that tlie Honourable Court liad been pleased to cancel tlie appointment of provisional 
 member of Council, notified to me by your letter of date the 19th September 1845. 
 
 The reasons of the measure 1 shall probably be made acquainted with hereafter, through 
 the jMadras Government. 
 
 It was not my intention to liave addressed tlie Honourable Court, but to have received 
 their award with submission ; nor should I now do so, if I liad not to-day received intelligence 
 that the Madras Government had suggested to tlie Honourable Court my dismissal from 
 the service, in a despatch whieli will be conveyed to tliem by tlie mail about to leave 
 Madras. Of the reasons of the suggestion I am not informed, but believe they have refe- 
 rence to the style of my correspondence with tiie IMadras Government. 
 
 ^^'itllout venturing to excuse this, I will refer to tiie cause which led me to depart from 
 the respect whicli is due from a servant to the Government, under a sense of aggression or 
 other circumstances. 
 
 M'heii tlie Madras Government addressed to me the language contained in the 9th para, 
 of their Proceedings of tiie 17th September last, language which I trust I have shown was 
 not the result of due inquiry, and which could only be justifiable as a judicial sentence, the 
 result cf a full and ojicn impilry, before a legally constituted tribunal or commission, I was 
 overcome by the sense of indignity, and by the reflection that such language, if not cast oflj 
 must prove injurious to my character. 
 
 I souglit in vain to induce the Govemraent to remove from the records language wliich, 
 I am ready to prove, was unjustifiable ; and to efl'ect this, I became careless as to the means 
 by which a measure which I deem of importance above all others, should be effected. Witli 
 the deep sense of wrong received at tlie liands of the Madras Government, I am aware that 
 I have resorted to language which the Honourable Court would not ajiprove, and i can only 
 now appeal to them for a considcratl<m of those feelings which naturally (however unbridled 
 they may Jiave displayed themselves) would arise in the breast of every honourable man. 
 
 I trust
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN 1E1UUT0RIES. ,365 
 
 I trust tlie Honourable Court will be of opinion, tluit tlie ruinous consequences of my Appendi;^, No. 
 
 removal from office, and from a seat in Council, will be deeiiieil suflicicnt to meet the 
 
 circumstances which have been urged against me, should they decide on refusing a full and 
 open iiHjuiiy. 
 
 I will submit to the Honourable Court, that the inmishment suggested bv the Madras 
 Government, is that which would be due to some grave moral delinquency, and that it could 
 not be exceeded under the fullest j)roof of such delinquency. 
 
 Before such a measure is resorted to, 1 would aDpeal to tiie justice of your Court for an 
 opportunity oi" justifying myself before a couunission constituted under the re"-ulations. 
 I have been condemned without trial; though I have placed my justification before the 
 Honourable Court, a heavier punishment coidd not belid me than the one suggested by the 
 Madras Government, if I were utterly without justification. And am T, after having spent 
 two-thirds of my life in the service of the Company, to be turned adrift for the employment 
 of language excited by the wrongs I have received from the Madras (iovernmeiit ? For 
 language, of which the first example was given by the (iovernment itself, in the iJth para, of 
 their Proceedings of the 17th September 184G. 
 
 Act XIII. of 1843 was passed expressly to meet and punish the misconduct of public 
 officers ; and am I to be debarred from the protection of that enactment, when I declare 
 myself ready to submit to its penalties ? Am I to be turned adrift, and to be removed fi'oni 
 an honourable service, without any public delinquency proved against me ? 
 
 I will not trespass further on the time of your Court. I trust that if the severe measui-es 
 recommended by the Madras Government are listened to, it will not be until I liave had the 
 means of exposing the merits of the case, that the world may know, if I am removed, ^vhy 
 I am removed. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 
 13 March 1847, Madras. (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 To the Secretary to the Court of East India Directors. 
 
 Sir, Madras, 24 January 1848. 
 
 The Madras Government have transmitted to me the Court's despatch, dated 20th 
 October 1847, on the subject of my resignation of the Civil Service. I jjrotest against the 
 Court of Directors repudiating my assertions as they have done \vhen I offered at my personal 
 risk to prove them. The Court of Directors are not justified in imputing to me that I have 
 made use of unfounded assertions, and I tell them that in doing so tliey have violated truth 
 and their duty. It I had ever * my word, as a member of the Civil Service * Sic. {jtuj. 
 
 impugned, they might be justified in the treatment I have received from them, but as this is 
 not the case, 1 throw back their imputations with contempt. 
 
 The Court of Directors know where the truth and the justice of the case lie, and by God's 
 help, when I reach England, the truth and justice of the case shall be publicly exposed : it 
 shall be s^en whether the Court of Directors are justified in upholding a Governor, every one 
 of whose acts they have anmdlcd, and victimizing one of their i^ervants, in order that they 
 may avert the wrath of the M.arquess of Tweeddale and of his friends. 
 
 1 have, &c. 
 (signed) M. Lewhi. 
 
 Sir, _ ... ^^"^ ^»te.) 
 
 I HAVE the honour to request, that, with the permission of the Court of Directors, you 
 will furnish me with copies, or allow me to peruse the entire record and correspondence 
 which passed between the Madras Government and the Court of Directors, on the subject of 
 the dismissal of the Judges of the late Suddcr Court. I make this request, because I know 
 that the Coiu't of Directors have been in part misled, owing to the fiicts of the case having 
 been misrepresented by the Madras Government, and because the Madras Government, being 
 ashamed to produce the despatches of the Court of Directors, have put forth such only as 
 served their own purposes, and suppressed the rest. 
 
 The Court of Directors have long been aware that the despatches from the Madras 
 Government were false; they have also not scrupled to denounce in their orders the conduct 
 of the Madras Government, both individually and collectively : but though their punishments 
 have reached the parties injured by the acts of the Government, the aggressor and w rong-doer 
 have been allowed to escape. 
 
 Although it is well known both here and in India, that there are few of the Court who 
 have not denounced the conduct of Mr. Dickinson in terms whicli show they entertain the 
 lowest opinion of his moral character; although the Court of Directors have openly accused 
 Lord Tweeddale of acting on " secret accusations," (whicli they luive admitted were the cause 
 of all that took place) they have refrained from noticing the proceeding except on the party 
 against whom the " secret accusations" were made. 
 
 The Court of Directors have refused incpiiry : had I been a Judge of one of Her Majesty's 
 Courts, or even a subordinate officer (such as a Master of Equity, accused of e.\tortion and 
 corruption), I should have had an opi)ortunlty of being heard by counsel, and of having mv case 
 laid open and exposed to public view ; and is tlie conduct of a Judge, and his independence, 
 of less moment because his jurisdiction extends over blaeiv instead of white men ? 
 
 The Court of Directors cannot but be aware that my removal from office by the Marquess 
 0.10. 4 c 2 of
 
 566 APPENDIX TO UEPORT FROM THE 
 
 A].pen.lix, No. 11. oi' Tweeddale was illegal, as he was livin.2; apart from his council, on Ihe Neilgherry Hills : 
 — — they cannot but know that he was not Governor. It is well known that there are few of their 
 
 bodv who have not acknowledged that, had the Marquess of Tweeddale been at .V) adras, instead 
 of separated from his office at the Council Board, that the rupture between the Sudder 
 Court and the Goveriunent would not have taken place ; they well know it was the falsehood 
 and insults oftlie Madras Government which provoked the insults oftered by me to them: 
 they know what the conduct of Air. Dickinson was, in issuing the order for my removal the 
 day before Mr. Chamier's return to Madras, and withholding the order to the same effect 
 in respect of the secret accuser, Mr. Waters. 
 
 The Court are well aware, collectively and individually, of Lord Tweeddale's incompetence, 
 and that the disputes in the Judder Court would not have arisen, if two men so unfit as 
 Mr. Boileau and j\Ir. AVaters had not been appointed to it ; and am I to be the scape-goat of 
 Lord Tweeddale's imbecility and misconduct, when it is not going too fir to sav that but 
 for me the Court would not have gone on as long as they were in it '. Am I to suffer because 
 Lord T. chose to appoint two men to the highest court in the country, who were known 
 to be unfit? Ami to be ruined because I upheld the right, and prevented the Court, of 
 which I was a Judge, being made an instrument of oppression and injustice? Had I allowed 
 the unjust sentences which the Government stimulated Mr. A\'aters to pass to take effect, 
 I should still be holding office and emoluments ; and am I to suffer because I would not 
 render myself inlhmous? 
 
 The Court of Directors cannot he ignoi-ant that it vvas to cover their own blunders that 
 the Madras Government found it necessary both in the case of the 6th Cavalry and of the 
 Sudder Court, to invent a cause of offence, and thus turn attention from their own delin- 
 quency. Did not the Government in the first instance refuse the battah, and in the second, 
 send the order of the 19th May to the Sudder Court, which the Court of Directors have 
 annulled ? And was not the battah enforced, and with it tranquillity ? 
 
 The Court of Directors are well aware that Mr. Dickinson suppressed the main papers in 
 the Sudder Court afltiiir, in order to enable him to pass a false judgment (surreptitiously 
 keeping copy of the same for after purposes), which had been returned to me on grounds of 
 informality ; they are aware also that he suppressed a conciliatory minute of Lord Tweeddale. 
 jNIi-. Dickinson has informed me (in a letter which he addressed to me when in Madras), that 
 the blame was neither his own, nor that of Lord Tweeddale. Why, I would ask the Court 
 of Directors, is not an inquiry to be made as to whose fault it was? 
 
 Mr. Thomas, the present Chief Secretary of Madras, having taken the opportunity of my 
 absence from Madras to disclaim the concern imputed to him in the rupture between the 
 Sudder Court and the Govi^rnment, I think it necessary to inform the Court of Directors 
 that this disclaimer is wholly untrue. The Order of the 19th May I have seen ; it is cor- 
 rected in the handwriting of Mr. Thomas, and no one acquainted with the influence he 
 exercised over Lord Tweeddale would cr could believe that any order so important could 
 have issued without his sanction. 
 
 I have no intention in the foregoing to offer any disrespect to the Court of Directors. 
 I think I am in justice entitled to have the ca>e exposed by a full inquiry, that the conduct 
 and motives of all parties may be laid open. I do not complain of being visited with the 
 power of the Court of Directors, if sufficient cause for it exists ; but I have a r ght to com- 
 plain (having had all my acts supported by them) that 1 alone should be singled out for 
 punishment, when those who by their acknowledged misconduct caused them, are allowed to 
 
 escape. 
 
 I have, t>cc. 
 To the Secretary, East India House. (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 Sir, 31, Gloucester Grardcns, Hyde Park. 
 
 In a minute, dated 17th March 1847, addressed to the Honourable Court, Mr. Dickinson 
 lemarks in relation to the conciliatory measures proposed by Lord Tweeddale, " With all 
 sincerity, I declare that it woidd have afforded me gratification to join in the measure pro- 
 posed by the Most Noble the President, and that the only reason I had for not at once doing 
 so, was set forth in the two documents to which 1 have referred ; viz. the doubt 1 entertained 
 that the Governor, when he should know how greatly the aspect of matters had changed 
 between the date of his penning his minute, and that on which the question was brought before 
 nic by the Secretary, would still wish that the measure proposed by him should be carried out." 
 
 In a letter written to me by Mr. Dickinson, dated lOtli August 1847, when writing under 
 the fi^ar that he would meet with the disgrace which has fallen on him, in private if not in 
 public, he writes, " I could even show that in the instance in which I was so roughly han<lled 
 in the • Spectator' the other daj-, three days after I had seen Lord Tweeddale's minute, 
 proposing that conciliatory measures should be oflered to the Judges, that is, on the 6th Au- 
 gust, Lord Tweeddale's minute being dated 28th July, I recorded a minute concurring in 
 the proposed measure. Unfortunately, proceedings were not immediately drafted and issued 
 on these minutes, but the fault lay neither with Lord Tweeddale nor myself. 
 
 I will ben- the Court of Directors to comjiarc these two versions of Mr. Dickinson's conduct. 
 1 will offer no further remark about hiui, for a man so infamous as Mr. Dickinson has ])roved 
 himself, is worth none. The wonder is, how so unprinci|)led a man should find fiivour with 
 the Court of Directors. I woidd refer the Court to the remarks of the United Service 
 Gazette of the 2.3(1 and 27th July 1847. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 
 To the Secretary, East India House. (signed) M. Lewin.
 
 SELECT COMMITTKK ON INDIAN TERTlTTORIEb. ,567 
 
 Sir, ."$ I, Gloucester Gardens, 8 Miiy 18.50. Appendix, 'No.H 
 
 1 HAVE the honour to request that you will submit to the Honourable the Court of 
 
 Dii'ectors the grounds upon which I consider myself entitled to ask of the East India Com- 
 pany conipensution for the losses I sustained, at tlie close of my career, as a civil servant of 
 the East India Com])any. I beg that I may not be misunderstood as asking anything at the 
 hands of the (\)urt of Directors as an act of grace or favour : if tlic grounds wiiich I set forth 
 for compensation are not of themselves sufficient, the Court of Directors would liavi; no right 
 to recognize them, and I would not condescend to advance them. 
 
 At the close of my career in the Civil Service, Jiaving held during a period of five years 
 the office of second Judge of the Sudder Court, and for a considerable i)eriod that of first 
 Judge (to which I was appointed by Loi'd Tweeddale), I was removed from the bench, for 
 reasons set forth in a document (miscalled a minute of Council, but having no legal title to 
 be so considered), dated 17th September 1846. To this document I will make no further 
 reference than by stating, that it is utterly unfoimdcd in fact (as I have abundantly shown 
 it to be in my letters addressed to you at several periods, to be laid before the Court of 
 Directors), which 1 am prepared to [>rovc whenever the opportunity (which I have so often 
 demanded) is aft'orded to me. 
 
 The cause of the ruptuic with the Sudder Court (which led to my removal from it) was 
 an order addressed to it by the Government, dated 19th May 1846. This order the Court of 
 Directors annulled, and their entire proceedings (in which they condemned the use of the 
 term " heathen") show that whatever opinion they might have entertained of my proceed- 
 ings, they disapproved of those of the Madras Government. Whatever may have been my 
 conduct, it is impossible to deny that the Court of Directors, who passed final judgment in 
 the case, disapproved of the proceedings of the Madras Government which led to it. 
 
 It is not mj^ intention here to justify, as a question of subordination, the conduct I adopted 
 towards the Madras Government; I admit that it was my duty (in relation to my subordi- 
 nate position), if I found myself obliged to adopt a course adverse to the Government to be 
 respectful towards it, which I was not after mv removal. Men on the verge of ruin are not 
 apt to weigh the means of escape. 
 
 Having said thus much, I will venture to ask the Court of Directors whether the punish- 
 ment I have suffered has not exceeded my offence ? whether, having done what was right in 
 my office, and risked all in pursuit of the right, a severer punishment has not been inflicted 
 on me than was called for ? 
 
 Had I been tried and imprisoned as a fraudulent debtor (instead of proving, as I trust I 
 have, to all men acquainted with me and the circumstances, that I acted the ])art of an 
 honourable man), had I proved myself unworthy to serve the Company in any capacity, had 
 I been refused on that account pei'mission to return to India, could 1 have been punished 
 more than I have been? The mo^t unprincipled civil servant that ever served the Company 
 could not be more than ruiued, as I have been, and from a state of affluence reduced to 
 comparative distress. 
 
 Having touched briefly on the immediate cause of my misconduct, I will now refer to 
 another. I will venture to ask the Court of Directors in candour, whether my punislimcnt 
 may not be referred to the incompetence of the party appointed as Governor of Madras? 
 Will they venture to assert, if the person holdino' the office had been fit for the situation 
 (such as Sir Thomas Munro and Sir Henry Pottinger), that the rupture between the 
 Sudder Court and the Government would have taken place ? 
 
 I had been five years in the Sudder Court before Mr. Waters and Mr. Boileau were 
 placed in It. Was I ever pronounced unfit for tiie office? were they ever pronounced fit for 
 it? Were they not appointed by Lord Tweeddale, not because they were fit, but to effect 
 a paltry saving? Was it possible, with sucli men, that tiie Sudder Court should go on? It 
 is needlsss to trouble the Court further. I think I am injustice entitled to be placed in a 
 better position than tlie man who abandons the Civil Service in disgrace, ami w'ho forfeits 
 his title to be continued in his office by a violation of ties which bind every civil servant to 
 the East India Company. 
 
 If it can be shown that in a single instance my judicial |)roccedings were wrong; that the 
 Judges who followed me deviated from the cours; I thought it my duty to insist ujion ; that 
 my character has been on this or on any other occ;vslou called in question, — I will not trouble 
 the Court of Directors with any further complaint. 
 
 I am very far from saying that I have not been culpable. I assert tiiat what I have 
 done was forced on me by circumstances, and that due allowance has not been made for 
 the proceedings of an individual who was obliged to defend himself against a superior force. 
 But while I admit my own culpabdlty, I assert that the main culpability attaches to the 
 Government, who forced me to do wiiat in other circumstances I should have disapproved. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 J. C Melvill, Esq. (signed) M. Leicin. 
 
 Sec. &c. &c. 
 
 o.io. 4 c
 
 568 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 -Appendix, No. 11. Sir, East India House, 22 May 1850. 
 
 I HAVE received and laid before the Court of Directors your letter of the 8th instant, 
 
 applying for compensation from the East India Company, for the losses you hare sustained 
 by your removal from the Suddcr Adawhit, and from the appointment of provisional member 
 of Council at Madras. 
 
 In reply, I am commanded to inform you that the measures which the Court of Directors 
 were compelled by your own course of conduct to adopt, were the most lenient which the 
 circumstances of the caee could admit, and that tlie Court are unable to entertain your 
 application. 
 
 I am, &c. 
 M. Lewin, Esq , (signed) J. C. iMeloUl, 
 
 31, Gloucester Gardens, Westbourne Terrace, 
 Hyde Park. 
 
 Sir, 31, Gloucester Gardens, 7 June 1850. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to acknowledge your letter of the 22d ultimo, in which you state that 
 the measures objected to in my letter of the 8 th, were forced on the Court of Directors by 
 my " own course of conduct," and " were the most lenient that the circumstances of the case 
 could .admit of." Lest it should be supposed that I acquiesce in this conclusion, I think it 
 incumbent to remark, that the true circumstances of the case have never been before the 
 Court of Directors. If they had been, I should have felt it my duty to submit, and should 
 have submitted to their judgment, as every subordinate is bound to submit to the judgment 
 of a superior authority. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 J. C. Melvill, Esq., (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 &c. &c. &c. 
 
 31, Gloucester Gardens, Hyde Park, 
 Sir, 16 May 1851. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to request that you will submit my application to the Court of Direc- 
 tors of the East India Company, for a reconsideration of their decision, conveyed in your 
 letter of the 22d May last. 
 
 It is no part of my object in this brief address to show that the acts connected with my 
 remo\al from office were blameless: it is sufficient that they grow out of the errors of the 
 Local (Government (virtually acknowledged, and their annulment by the authority of the 
 Court of Directors,) which forced me into a position from which there was no escape, but 
 with the loss of character or emolument. I thank God that I preferred the loss of the latter, 
 and that neither fear nor hope betrayed me into acts of submission, which would have proved 
 me unworthy the high station on the judicial bench from which I was removed. 
 
 I had been five years a Judge of the highest court in the country, when Mr. Waters and 
 Mr. Boileau were appointed my colleagues, not because of their ability for the duty, but 
 because, as stated by the Local Government, a saving could be effected by their elevation. 
 The result of the measure was to create anarchy in the Sudder Court, while the retirement 
 of Lord Tweeddale to the Neilgherries (where he retained but in part the reins of Govern- 
 meut) created anarchy at the Presidency. 
 
 If it were possible to deny that .the evils of which I complain were attributable to the 
 causes I have mentioned, I should consider myself without a title to ask anything of the East 
 India Company ; if I were unable to show that the errors laid to my charge resulted from 
 the errors of the Government, I should consider myself without excuse. 
 
 Is it just, I would venture to ask, to require of the subordinate only that he shall be 
 blameless ? Can it, in reason, be expected of him, when threatened in his reputation, and 
 with the ruin of his fortunes, that he should jireserve the equanimity and forbearance which 
 W()ul<l befit a perfect state of calm and quietude ? 
 
 Whatever view the Court may take of this application, I would certainly not make it 
 unless I could do so with a conscientious belief that it is founded on right and justice. 
 Wiiile I am not blind to the points open to exception, I will venture to assert, that the 
 credit of having prevented a great deal of cruelty and injustice, of having rescued numbers 
 from unjust ]nini.>^linient, cannot h(! denied to me. 
 
 1 was holding the office of .Judge, in which there ie no halting between two opinions; 
 and it may be fairly asked whether an error committed in the anxiety to uphold the inde- 
 pendence of an office I was sworn to execute without distinction of jjcrson or authority, 
 calls for a j)uiiislinient which places me on a level with men who were removed from the 
 service stained with crime and judicial punishment. 
 
 I was viitually di.sniissed the service; for though it is certainly true I would have starved, 
 with niv whiilc family, ratlicr tli.an have voluntarily taken up a lower position, 1 was not 
 even offered an inferior office, as happened to my colleagues, who were removed with me, 
 on terms more disparaging than those of my own removal : was I less fit for office than 
 they ? 
 
 I have, &c. 
 
 To the Secret.ary to the Court of Directors (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 of tlie East India Company.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 569 
 
 Sir, Ka-^t liilia llou,,.-, 24 May 18J1. Appeiidir So li 
 
 I HAVE received, and laid before the Court of Directors, your letter, dated tlic 16tli —L ' 
 
 instant, soliciting a reconsideration of the decision coniinunicated to you in my letter of 
 the 22d May 1850, with regard to your ap]»lication t(j he compensated for the losses you 
 sustained by your removal from tlic Sudder Adawlut, and from the appointment of provi- 
 sional member of Council at Madras. 
 
 In reply, I am conunanded to inform yuu, tliat the (picstion to which your letter refers 
 has been finally disposed of, and that the Court of Directors see no reason for re- 
 opening it. 
 
 I am, ike. 
 Malcolm Lowin, Esq., (signed) James C. Melvill, 
 
 31, Gloucester-o-ardens, Westbourne-terrace, . Secretary. 
 
 'Hyde Tark. 
 
 Sir, 31, Gloucester-gardens, 26 May 1851. 
 
 I HAVE had the honour to receive your letter of the 24th May, and request you will place 
 the following brief remarks before the Court of Directors. 
 
 The claim preferred by me rests on an equitable basis (the only basis on which 1 would 
 make it), and is not unprecedented. 
 
 On the occasion of Mr. Baber's removal from the office of first judge of the Provincial 
 Court of Malabar and Canara, during the government of Mr. Lushington, the Court ot 
 Directors awarded to that gentleman, in the year 1832 I think, the salary he would have 
 received had he remained in employ during the interval of his removal and retirement 
 from India. 
 
 Mr. Baber's conduct was not approved by the Court of Directors : the acts of the Govern- 
 ment, connected with his removal, were not cancelled by the authority of the Court of 
 Directors ; nor was the Government rebuked ; but it was thought that the penalties entailed 
 by the removal justified a pecuniary award. 
 
 In my own case, my judicial proceedings were upheld, and have never since been ques- 
 tioned ; the Judges who followed me passed sentence in accordance with my views ; the 
 orders oi'the Government, which led to the controversy between the Sudder Court and the 
 Government, and, in the sequel, to my removal, were cancelled by the authority of the Court 
 of Directors ; the Government were reproved for stigmatising the people oi' the country as 
 " heathens," and directed to refrain for the future from interference with the ordinary course 
 of justice. 
 
 I believe I am not wrong in supposing that my removal from the Sudder Court was con- 
 firmed by the Court of Directors, not because of any acts done before my removal, but in 
 constquence of what took place after it. 
 
 I will oft'er but one more remark, appealing to the candour of the Court of Directors, 
 whether, having upheld the justice of the highest Court in the country, assailed as it was 
 by the Government, and the first Judge, Mr. Waters; whether having been thrown by the 
 aggression of others into a situation of extreme difficulty, that difficulty being solely and 
 entirely attribuable to the acknowledged errors of the Government, it is just, that the only 
 party whose acts were correct should be visited with the penalty of virtual dismissal, after a 
 career of 35 years' service, in which my official conduct received as large a measure of appro- 
 bation from the Local Government and the Court of Directors, as fell to the lot of any ser- 
 vant subject to their authority. 
 
 I liave, &c. 
 To the Secretary to the (signed) M. L 
 
 Honourable East India Company. 
 
 i^cwin. 
 
 Sir. Gloucester Gardens, 12 February 1852. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to request, that you will lay my apjilication before the Court of 
 Directors of the East India Company, for compensation for losses occasioned by my illegal 
 removal from the office of Judge of the Sudder Court at Madras. 
 
 If it could not be distinctly shown that my removal resulted from causes beyond xuy own 
 control, and within the control of the Court of Directors, I should consider myself without a 
 title to make this application. 
 
 No one, I believe, ventures to deny that the ^Marquess of Tweeddale was unequal to the 
 task of Government ; it is as certain that my removal originated in part owing to two Incom- 
 petent colleagues, who were appointed by him to efl'ect a j)altry saving, and in part owing to 
 orders addressed by his Lordship to the Sudder Court, which orders were annulled (on 
 account of their impro]>riety) by the Court of Directors. 
 
 My judicial proceedings, from first to last, have been affirmed as correct, and I alone, of all 
 the parties concerned, have had no sentence of disqualification passed on me. jVIy colleague, 
 ^Ir. Boilcau, was removed on the plea of want of independence, because, when threatened by 
 the Local Government, he yielded (when I resisted), under a very iiatiual fear, that by a 
 contrary course he would bring ruin upon himself and his family. I will not refer ))arti- 
 oularly to the cause of my other colleague's removal, a less creditable one ; both of these 
 gentlemen, however, found it convenient to accept an inferior office under the Government 
 which removed them. 
 
 0.10. 4C4 The
 
 570 APPENDIX TO REPORT ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 
 
 ppendix, No. 1). The case of the latter gentleman involved signal injustice and depravity ; after doing all the 
 dirty work oi' the Government, a scape-goat was wanted, and he supplied one. 
 
 At the time of ray removal, Lord Tweeddale was passing his time on the Neilgherry Hills, 
 aud was by law divested of the power which compassed my removal. He was, however, far 
 enough oft' to be the tool of men worse, if not more stupid, than himself, at Madras. 
 
 The Court of Directors, on political grounds, may have been justified in depriving me of a 
 seat in Council, \\hich, considering how it is sometimes occupied (take Mr. Dickinson as an 
 example), confers little honour on any one ; but I never heard of a Judge being deprived of 
 his seat for refusing to be unjust. Had 1 allowed all the poor '-heathens" (so called by 
 Lord Tweeddale) whom Mr. Waters had illegally condemned to be punished, nothing 
 adverse could have happened to me, and I should have proved myself as pious as the party 
 opposed to me; but because I arrested the course of injustice, and saved, I believe, a hun- 
 dred persons, who were to be sacrificed (for the sake of the Gospel!) from unjust punishment, 
 a victim must needs be had, to appease the wrath of Lord Tweeddale ; a man who, con- 
 temptible as he was as a Governor, was better in all respects than the sycophants who led 
 him to do what I am persuaded, if he had had intellect enough to understand the question, 
 he woidd have revolted at. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 
 To the Secretary, East India House, (signed) M. Lewin. 
 
 &c. &c. &c. 
 
 f^ifj East India House, 24 February 1852. 
 
 I HAVE received, and laid before the Court of Directors your letter, dated the 12th instant, 
 and in reply, I am commanded to refer you to my letter, dated the 24th May last. 
 
 I am, &c. 
 Malcolm Lewin, Esquire, (signed) J. C. Melvill, 
 
 31, Glodcester Gardens, Hyde Park. Secretary. 
 
 (True Copies.) 
 
 T. L. Peacock, 
 Examiner of India Correspondence. 
 
 f]',/ 
 
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