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BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 
 BY ORION ^./V 
 
 
 <«''^.^»* 
 
 Birth Offering Series. — No. 4 
 
 THIRD EDITION 
 
 LAMONI. IOWA 
 
 Published by the Board of Publication of the Reorganized Chutch 
 
 of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 
 
 1912 
 
r 
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 In presenting to the church this the fourth volume 
 of the Birth Offering Series, we feel to express our 
 sense of gratitude for the circumstances which have 
 enabled us to resume publication of this greatly to bo 
 desired class of literature, and the earnest wish that 
 ere long this series may number many volumes of 
 choice reading for the children and young people of 
 the church. 
 
 Of the value of this present volume to this class of 
 readers, we feel sure that no one who gives it a care- 
 tal perusal can entertain the slightest doubt, and it is 
 tha earnest hope of those having the publishing 
 interests of the church at heart, that its reception 
 will be of a nature so cordial as will enable them 
 speedily to bring out other volumes calculated to 
 acquaint the children with the faith of the church in 
 those years in which the mind is open to receive and 
 retain lasting impression. 
 
V ';ii\)\\' ! ;i;)ii Ai^ -'li r 
 
 Digitized by the Internet Archive 
 
 in 2007 with funding from 
 
 IVIicrosbft Corporation 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/bookofmormontalkOOoriorich 
 
BooR of Mormon TalRs. 
 
 NUMBER ONE. 
 
 ERNEST.— Papa, Harry, Ethel, Maude, and I 
 would like to have you explain to us about 
 the Book of Mormon. We have, as you know, 
 been attending meeting every night, and we have 
 heard Brother Scott preaching on that subject, but 
 we do not thoroughly understand it; so we have 
 decided to come to you and see if you can explain it 
 to our understanding. 
 
 Papay — I am very glad to have the opportunity, 
 my dear children, to explain the matter to you. 
 What is it that you can not understand, and where 
 shall I begin? 
 
 Ernest, — We would like to have you begin by 
 explaining what the book is; what it claims to be, 
 and whether it is a new Bible, and whether it claims 
 to take the place of the Bible or not. Since Brother 
 Scott has been preaching here, our schoolmates who 
 do not belong to the church say that we have the 
 Book of Mormon in the place of the Bible. Of course 
 we know that is not true, but we do not know just 
 how to answer them. 
 
 Papa. — Well, I will begin by saying that the Book 
 of Mormon claims to be the history of a people or 
 peoples who once lived on the continent of America, 
 and also contains God's law and will revealed to 
 them. It also relates that Christ came here after his 
 
6 'BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 crucifixion and resurrection, and revealed his gospel 
 to them. There were three colonies or companies of 
 people who came here, all having been led here by- 
 God to settle in this land. The first came from the 
 Tower of Babel at the confusion of tongues. You 
 have often read about that in your Bibles. This 
 pompany multiplied and became a great nation, and 
 built many cities. They lived here about sixteen 
 hundred years, or until about six hundred years 
 before Christ, when through severe fighting they 
 were all, except two men, destroyed. The second 
 company came out from Jerusalem in the beginning 
 of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah. This 
 second company was led by a man named Lehi, as 
 they were mostly composed of members of his family. 
 These are the ones who wrote the Book of Mormon. 
 What we know of the first company we learn from 
 plates, or records, whioh ^eve left when they were 
 destroyed, and were found and translated by these 
 people who came after them. The first company 
 landed in Yucatan, as near as we can tell from the 
 Book of Mormon description; the second, on the 
 west coast of South America, in the country which 
 we now call Chili. The third company came out 
 from Jerusalem in the last year, or latter part of the 
 reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, and landed on the 
 west coast of Central America. They brought with 
 them one of Zedekiah's sons, named Mulok. They 
 came here just about the time of the destruction of 
 the first company or nation ; in fact, they found one 
 of the men that I spoke of that was not killed, and he 
 was with them several months. As to whether the 
 Book of Mormon claims to supersede or take the 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS . 7 
 
 place of the Bible, we had better let the book speak 
 for itself. I do not intend to do all the talking and 
 reading during this talk of ours, but I want you all to 
 be interested in this matter, and the best way to keep 
 you interested is to give you something to do. So I 
 shall ask you to do the reading as I shall give you 
 the references. Ernest, you may take the Bible, 
 Harry the Book of Mormon, and I will find something 
 for you girls to read before I get through, and I want 
 you all to watch, and if there is anything at any time 
 you do not understand, you must not hesitate to ask 
 me questions about it. Harry, I will ask you to do 
 the first reading from the Book of Mormon. We will 
 use this large edition, as the print is larger and it is 
 divided up into verses a little more convenient to 
 quote. Read from page 23, verses 125 and 126 : 
 
 Harry, — "And it came to pass that I beheld the 
 remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the 
 book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth 
 from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from 
 the Gentiles, unto the remnant of the seed of my 
 brethren; and after it had come forth unto them, I 
 beheld other books, which came forth by the power 
 of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the 
 convincing of the Gentiles, and the remnant of the 
 seed of my brethren, and also the Jews, who were 
 scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the 
 records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of 
 the Lamb, are true. And the angel spake unto me, 
 saying, These last records which thou hast seen 
 among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the 
 first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, 
 and shall make known the plain and precious things 
 
8 . BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 which have been taken away from them ; and shall 
 make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, 
 that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal 
 Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all 
 men must come unto him or they can not be saved ; 
 and they must come according to the words which 
 shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb : and 
 the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the 
 records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the 
 twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore, they both 
 shall be established in one ; for there is one God and 
 one Shepherd over all the earth; and the time 
 Cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all 
 nations, both unto the Jews, and also unto the 
 Gentiles." 
 
 Papa,— *'The book of the Lamb of God," and **The 
 record of the twelve apostles of the Lamb," in verse 
 125, refers to the Bible, while "These last records" 
 spoken of in verse 126 is the Book of Mormon. So 
 you see the Book of Mormon does not claim to take 
 the place, but it is to establish the truth, of the Bible, 
 and the two shall become one in God's hands in the 
 converting of the Jews and Gentiles. Now, Harry, 
 you may turn to page 93 and read verse 32, then 
 begin at the 40th and read to the 48th : 
 
 Harry, — **And because my words shall hiss forth, 
 many of the Gentiles shall say-, A bible, a bible, we 
 have got a bible, and there can not be any more 
 bible. . . . Thou fool, that shall say, A bible, we 
 have got a bible, and we need no more bible. Have 
 ye obtained a bible, save it were by the Jews? Know 
 ye not that there are more nations than one? Know 
 ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 9 
 
 men, and that I remember those who are upon the 
 islea of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above, 
 and in the earth beneath ; and I bring forth my word 
 unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the 
 nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because 
 that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye 
 not that the testimony of two nations is a witness 
 unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation 
 like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same 
 words unto one nation like unto another. And when 
 the two nations shall run together, the testimony of 
 the two nations shall run together also. And I do 
 this that I may prove unto many, that I am the same 
 yesterday, to-day, and for ever; and that I speak 
 forth my words according to mine own pleasure." 
 
 Papa. — Letting the Book of Mormon speak for 
 itself, then, we find that it does not do away with the 
 Bible, as our opponents so often assert, but simply 
 becomes a second witness for God, and in this we find 
 that God sustains his own word, as you will find, 
 Ernest, by reading 2 Corinthians 13 : 1 : 
 
 Ernest, — *'This is the third time I am coming to 
 you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall 
 every word be established." 
 
 Papa. — God himself lays down the rule, hence we 
 would expect him to establish his word through other 
 nations as well as the Jews, or he would be a 
 respecter of persons. You may read, Ernest, what 
 is said on this point in Acts 10: 34, 35 : 
 
 Ernest — **Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, 
 Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of per- 
 sons : but in every nation he that f eareth him, and 
 worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." 
 
10 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 Papa, — ^We know that there have been people on 
 this continent, and that they were very highly civi- 
 lized. We see this in all the ruins of their cities, 
 and other works that remain. They understood 
 astronomy. They had a written language, could 
 make cloth, and some of their arts and sciences were 
 far ahead of what we know to-day. It is proven by 
 history that there is no civilization without revelation 
 from God; or, in other words, so you may under- 
 stand it. In all the known world civilization has ever 
 been in proportion to the people's acceptance of 
 God's word. If, then, God's word has acted as a 
 civilizer in the world and among the people that we 
 know, can we say that it was absent in the develop- 
 ment of the civilization on this continent? No. 
 Everything goes to prove that God must have 
 revealed himself to the people here the same as to 
 the people in Bible times, and nothing would be 
 more natural than that they would record what he 
 revealed, and that he would preserve it and bring it 
 forth as a second witness to the world. 
 
 Ethel. — You said, papa, in speaking of the three 
 different companies that came here and settled, that 
 they claimed God led them. I have often heard you 
 use the text in Amos 3:7. **Surely the Lord God 
 will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his 
 servants the prophets." Now if God led them, will 
 we not find it spoken of somewhere in the prophecies 
 or history in the. Bible? 
 
 Papa. — Yes, my daughter, we certainly ought to 
 find something concerning the matter. Paul says in 
 Acts 14: 17 that God '*left not himself without wit- 
 ness," and we certainly ought to expect that in a 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 11 
 
 matter as important as this we would find this state- 
 ment true. We will begin, then, with the first com- 
 pany, and we will take them in their order. We 
 have learned by reference to the book of Ether in 
 the Book of Mormon that several families, consisting 
 of Jared, his brother, and their friends, came to this 
 country from the Tower of Babel at the time of the 
 confusion of languages. These men and their fami- 
 lies were allowed to retain their speech so that they 
 could understand each other. Ernest, you may read 
 from Genesis 11 : 8, 9 : 
 
 Ernest, — **So the Lord scattered them abroad from 
 thence upon the face of all the earth: and they 
 left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it 
 called Babel; because the Lord did there confound 
 the language of all the earth : and from thence did 
 the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the 
 earth." 
 
 Papa. — Here we have the statement that the Lord 
 scattered them abroad on the face of all the earth. 
 America was part of the earth, hence it is not an 
 unreasonable claim made by the Book of Mormon 
 that there was a company came from that tower here. 
 And it is but natural to conclude that God led them, 
 for he found a few righteous in Sodom and saved 
 them. Then if we read the rest of that chapter we 
 will see that we have the history of only a very small 
 portion of those whom God caused to disperse at that 
 time, just those who were descendants of Abraham. 
 We will probably have occasion to refer to this at 
 another time. This passage which Ernest has read 
 is the only one that we find in the Bible relating to 
 this subject directly, so far as this company is con- 
 
12 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 cerned, but the scarcity of evidence is overcome by 
 the quality of it, and also the abundance in regard to 
 the second company. But the evidence contained in 
 these two verses is sufficient to sustain the thought 
 presented by you, Ethel, from Amos, that the Lord 
 would do nothing but he would reveal his secret to 
 his servants the prophets. Now we will take the 
 second colony or company, and in order to get a 
 starting-point I will ask Harry to read from the Book 
 of Mormon, page 9, verse 132: 
 
 Harry* — *'And it came to pass that my father Lehi 
 also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of 
 his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a 
 descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who 
 was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and 
 who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he 
 might preserve his father Jacob and all his house- 
 hold from perishing with famine." 
 
 Maude, — What were these plates of brass that 
 Harry read about? 
 
 Papa. — They were a set of plates that were kept 
 on which were recorded the history of the Jews. But 
 perhaps we had better let Harry read verses 130 and 
 131, the verses just before the one he has read. That 
 will tell what they were : 
 
 Harry. — "And after they had given thanks unto 
 the God of Israel, my father Lehi took the records 
 which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and 
 he did search them from the beginning. And he 
 beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, 
 which gave an account of the creation of the world, 
 and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first par- 
 ents; and also a record of the Jews from the begin- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 13 
 
 ning, even down to the commencement of the reign 
 of Zedekiah, king of Judah ; and also the prophecies 
 of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down 
 to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah ; and 
 also many prophecies which have been spoken by 
 the mouth of Jeremiah." 
 
 Pajpa, — This explains fully what the plates were, 
 and that these people had the word of God to start 
 with. This also explains why we find so many quo- 
 tations from the Old Testament in the Book of Mor- 
 mon. But the principal thought that I had in asking 
 Harry to read this portion of the Book of Mormon 
 was to show that these people who compose this 
 second company were of the tribe of Joseph. Now 
 we will have to look to the prophecies in regard to 
 the tribe of Joseph, and see if God revealed this 
 secret to his servants the prophets, that a portion of 
 Joseph's tribe or posterity should come to the land of 
 America. You have often seen the beautiful ordi- 
 nance of blessing of children in the church. This 
 practice is very old. We have it mentioned as far 
 back as the forty-eighth chapter of Genesis. Some- 
 times, yes, nearly always, the blessing of a child was 
 the outlining of some of the principal events in its 
 history. Now, Ernest, you may read about the 
 blessing of Joseph and his sons as found first in 
 Genesis 48:8-19: 
 
 Ernest, — "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and 
 said. Who are these? And Joseph said unto his 
 father. They are my sons, whom God hath given me 
 in this place. And he said. Bring them I pray thee, 
 unto me, and I will bless them. Now the eyes of 
 Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. 
 
14 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 And he brought them near unto him ; and he kissed 
 them, and embraced them. And Israel said unto 
 Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, 
 God hath showed me also thy seed. And Joseph 
 brought them out from between his knees, and he 
 bowed himself with his face to the earth. And 
 Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand 
 toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left 
 hand, toward Israel's right hand, and brought them 
 near unto him. And Israel stretched out his right 
 hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the 
 younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, 
 guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the 
 first-born. And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, 
 before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did 
 walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this 
 day, the angel which redeemed me from all evil, 
 bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, 
 and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; 
 and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of 
 the earth. And when Joseph saw that his father laid 
 his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it dis- 
 pleased him: and he held up his father's hand, to 
 remove it from Ephraim' s head unto Manasseh's 
 head. And Joseph said unto his father. Not so, my 
 father: for this is the first-born; put thy right hand 
 upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I 
 know it, my son, I know it; he also shall become a 
 people, and he also shall be great: but truly his 
 younger brother shall be greater than he, and his 
 seed shall become a multitude of nations." 
 
 Papa. — We here see the Lord revealing his secrets 
 to his servant Jacob, so that he outlined some of the 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 16 
 
 events in the future of these two boys. All of 
 Joseph's blessing was to be bound up in these two 
 boys, hence whatever was to happen to them would 
 affect his tribe or posterity. We will notice the 
 peculiar statement that is made in this blessing of 
 these two boys. In verse 16 he says of both boys, 
 "Let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the 
 earth'*; and speaking of Ephraim in verse 19 he 
 says, **His seed shall become a multitude of nations." 
 When Columbus discovered America the whole coun- 
 try was covered or -occupied by Indian tribes or 
 nations, all seemingly having a common origin. 
 Nowhere else do we find anything like it, so we are 
 compelled to admit that the prophecy has a seeming 
 fulfillment in this land, and that in some way the 
 posterity of Ephraim and Manasseh found their way 
 to this country, and that in this regard the state- 
 ments of the Book of Mormon are in harmony with, 
 and hence confirm, the Bible. But we have much 
 plainer statements than this. Ernest, you may con- 
 tinue by reading from Genesis 49 : 22-26, a further 
 statement by Jacob in regard to Joseph's tribe: 
 
 Ernest, — ** Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruit- 
 ful bough by a well ; whose branches run over the 
 wall : the archers have sorely grieved him, and shot 
 at him, and hated him: but his bow abode in 
 strength, and the arms of his hands were made 
 strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; 
 (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel;) 
 even by the God of thy Father, who shall help thee ; 
 and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with 
 blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that 
 lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the 
 
16 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 womb; the blessings of thy father have prevailed 
 above the blessings of my progenitors unto the 
 utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be 
 on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head 
 of him that was separate from his brethren.'* 
 
 Papa, — This throws much more light on the future 
 of Joseph, and when we compare it to the blessings 
 that were given to other of Jacob's sons, we can but 
 admit that something out of the common was to come 
 to Joseph's posterity. Notice first the peculiar word- 
 ing of verse 22: "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a 
 fruitful bough by a well, whose branches run over 
 the wall." How literally true this is if we accept the 
 Book of Mormon history of a part or branches of the 
 tribe of Joseph coming to this country or running 
 over the water, as the statement is literally. Then 
 notice verse 26, **The blessings of thy father have 
 prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto 
 the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The 
 blessings of Jacob's progenitors or fathers that he 
 speaks of here were that they should have the land 
 of Palestine or Holy Land for an inheritance. You 
 will find, Ernest, a description of the land promised 
 to Abraham in Genesis 15 : 18-21 : 
 
 Ernest, — **In that same day the Lord made a 
 covenant with Abram, saying. Unto thy seed have 
 I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto 
 the great river, the river Euphrates: the Kenites, 
 and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the 
 Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaim, and 
 the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Gir- 
 gashites, and the Jebusites." 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS , 17 
 
 Papa. — And in the 17th chapter he calls it the land 
 of Canaan. This was the extent of the promise of land 
 to Jacob's fathers; but he says his blessings have 
 prevailed above the blessings of his fathers, unto the 
 utmost bound of the everlasting hills, and that this 
 additional blessing shall be on the head of Joseph. 
 Some of our opponents have argued that Jacob refers 
 to this extra blessing in Genesis 48 : 22. You may- 
 read it, Ernest : 
 
 Ernest. — **Moreover I have given to thee one por- 
 tion above thy brethren, which I took out of the 
 hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my 
 bow." 
 
 Papa. — But you can see that this was not what 
 Jacob referred to, for the reason that the land of the 
 Amorite was a part of that which was promised to 
 his fathers, hence could not be that portion that was 
 above the blessings of his fathers. We must look 
 elsewhere, then, for Joseph's land. And we think 
 we have the land very expressly pointed out in the 
 language, *'Unto the utmost bound of the everlasting 
 hills." This would be, literally speaking, the oppo- 
 site side of the earth, for as soon as you get to the 
 farthest point on the earth from where Jacob stood, 
 if you went on you would be returning towards him. 
 I will illustrate this so you can understand it by this 
 globe here on my desk. I will put my right index 
 finger on the spot where Jacob stood when he gave 
 Joseph his blessing, which would be in Egyp% and 
 then put the finger of my left hand on the opposite 
 side of the globe, which would represent the "utmost 
 bound of the everlasting hills," and it would be 
 almost on the land of America. This seems plain 
 
18 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 enough, does it not, and ought to satisfy almost any 
 one? But we have yet other prophecies concerning 
 Joseph's land and tribe that make it seem marvelous 
 that men did not find out the meaning of it long, long 
 ago. When Moses was about to finish his work, like 
 Jaoob he predicted the future of the tribes of Israel ; 
 but we are concerned only with the tribe of Joseph 
 now. So I will ask Ernest to read from Deuteronomy 
 33:13-17. I will quote the first verse so you will 
 understand what follows : "And this is the blessing, 
 wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the chil- 
 dren of Israel before his death." You may read 
 Joseph's blessing now: 
 
 Ernest. — **And of Joseph he said. Blessed of the 
 Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, 
 for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 
 and for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun , 
 and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 
 and for the chief things of the ancient mountains, 
 and for the precious things of the lasting Hills, and 
 for the precious things of the earth and the fullness 
 thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the 
 bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, 
 and upon the top of the head of him that was sepa- 
 rated from his brethren. His glory is Hke the first- 
 ling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns 
 of unicorns: with them he shall push the people 
 together to the ends of the earth : and they are the 
 ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thou- 
 sands of Manasseh." 
 
 Papa. — It is very clear that Moses was giving a 
 description of a land separate from the land of Pales- 
 tine, and he called it Joseph's land. No land answers 
 
BOOK -OF MORMON TALKS 19 
 
 the description given here as does the land of 
 America. We will now examine into some of the 
 resources of this land as given in recent years, and 
 compare it with Moses' description of Joseph's land 
 as given hundreds of years ago by the spirit of 
 prophecy. You notice that there are several things 
 for which Joseph's land is noted. First we will 
 notice, '*Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the 
 precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the 
 deep that coucheth beneath, for the precious things 
 brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things 
 put forth by the moon." You see this relates to 
 agriculture, fruit-raising, and such things as the 
 dew, the sun, and the moon have influence upon. 
 "The deep that coucheth beneath" evidently has 
 reference to the water under the earth that is so near 
 the surface that it helps in growing crops, fruits, and 
 so forth, and in some places in the West they depend 
 entirely upon flowing wells to irrigate their land. A 
 flowing well is where men have bored down, some- 
 times hundreds of feet, tapping great veins or reser- 
 voirs of water, and it rises in the well until it flows 
 out of the top. I have seen some that were made of 
 pipes as large as your body, and sometimes the 
 water comes out with such force that it leaps several 
 feet in the air. This water flows over the land and 
 waters it so that they can raise good crops, even if it 
 never rains. It is a very good figure in which the 
 Prophet Moses speaks of this, as it is indeed the deep 
 that coucheth beneath ready to spring forth when 
 tapped by man. I have no statistics for the whole 
 land of America, but I have quite a number relating 
 to the United States, which, as you know, is a very 
 
20 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 small portion of America. You take this book, called 
 Facts for the Times, Maude, and on page 110 you 
 will find a quotation from the Domestic Journal which 
 you may read, as it gives us something of an idea of 
 the resources of this land from an agricultural stand- 
 point : 
 
 Maude. — "The position which the United States 
 holds among the nations of the world is clearly 
 shown by the wonderful fact that one fifth of the 
 wealth of the seventeen principal countries of the 
 globe is credited to this Republic, which has just 
 entered upon the second century of its existence. 
 The wealth of the United States equals the combined 
 valuation of Italy, Spain, Portugal, India, South 
 Africa, South America, Turkey, Egypt, Sweden, 
 Norway, Canada, Australia, and Denmark. It 
 exceeds the wealth of Germany and Russia com- 
 bined. It is equal to the wealth of Great Britain, 
 Canada, and Australia. Agriculture has been the 
 main factor in this marvelous increase of national 
 wealth." 
 
 Papa. — Surely we need no more evidence, but I 
 will give you some figures that are so vast that you 
 can hardly comprehend them. In 1870 there were 
 eleven billion, one hundred and twenty-one million, 
 nine hundred and thirty-seven thousand, seven hun- 
 dred and six dollars invested in agriculture alone in 
 the United States, and the value of the crops for that 
 year was over three billion, twenty million dollars. 
 Now we will take up the mineral feature of Joseph's 
 land. Moses says it will be noted **for the chief 
 things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious 
 things of the lasting hills, and for the precious things 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 21 
 
 of the earth and fullness thereof." Maude, you may- 
 continue to read from that same book, pages 110 and 
 111. This author quotes from other works. You 
 can give the references: 
 
 Maude. — '*When America was discovered there 
 were but sixty millions of gold in Europe. California 
 and the territories around her have produced one 
 thousand million dollars in gold in twenty years. 
 Sixty -one million dollars was the largest annual gold 
 yield ever made in Australia. California has several 
 times produced ninety millions of gold in a year." — 
 Old World and New, page 384. "Coal -Beds.— The 
 area of workable coal-beds in all the world outside of 
 the United States is estimated at twenty -six thousand 
 square miles. That of the United States, not includ- 
 ing Alaska, is estimated at over two hundred thou- 
 sand square miles, or eight times as large as the 
 available coal area of all the rest of the globe." — 
 Year-Book, 1869, page 655. "Mountains of Iron. — 
 Three mountains of solid iron (in Missouri) known 
 as Iron Mountain, Pilot Knob, and Shepherd's Moun- 
 tain, are among the most remarkable natural curiosi- 
 ties on our continent." — ^Year-Book, page 654. 
 Professor "Waterhouse thus describes one of them: 
 "The elevation of Iron Mountain is 228 feet, and the 
 area of its base is five hundred acres. The solid 
 contents of the cone are 230,000,000 tons. It is 
 thought that every foot beneath the surface will 
 yield 3,000,000 tons of ore. At the depth of 150 feet 
 the artesian auger was still penetrating solid ore. 
 These mountains contain enough ore above the sur- 
 face to afford for two hundred years an annual supply 
 
22 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 of 1,000,000 tons. The iron is strong, tough, and 
 fibrous.'* 
 
 Papa, — This is a pretty good description of 
 America, but it is no better and not nearly as poet- 
 ical as the one given by Moses thousands of years 
 ago by his prophetic insight. But we are not through 
 yet. Ethel, you may take my scrap-book and read 
 an article that you will find on page 218, the title of 
 which is, **Record -breaking year in mineral produc- 
 tion," and clipped from the St. Louis Republic : 
 
 Ethel. — "That last year was a record-breaker in 
 mining operations is abundantly proven by a recent 
 summary published in a mining journal. It gives the 
 value of thirty-nine separate minerals, but there are 
 over one hundred minor ones which are reported in 
 gross and not under specific classification. In all 
 save five of these hundred odd mineral substances, 
 an increase in production over 1897 is shown. The 
 value of the output of some of the principal minerals 
 is as follows: Coal, $210,263,953; iron, $111,858,254; 
 gold, $64,300,000; copper, $64,244,326; petroleum, 
 $49,277,000; silver, $37,321,356; coke, $31,920,000; 
 lead, $16,410,265; zinc, $10,267,397. Nearly three 
 fourths of the total is included in this enumeration . 
 The total production for the year was $810,050,023, as 
 against $750,312,355 last year, an increase of $59,- 
 737,768. Nearly every mineral of value is produced 
 in the United States. This country produces two 
 thirds of the copper of the world and has practical 
 control of the market for this metal. The Latin - 
 American markets, which formerly depended upon 
 England, are being supplied from our mines. The 
 pig-iron product for the year — 11,712,903 tons — was 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 23 
 
 the largest on record, being an increase over 1897, of 
 21.2 per cent. About 72 per cent of the iron output 
 was used in the manufacture of steel. This showing 
 indicates that the United States, in minerals as in 
 manufactures and agricultural products, can both 
 supply its own needs and compete successfully with 
 the nations of the world." 
 
 Papa. — Surely we have found Joseph's land in the 
 continent of America. Taking the statistics Maude 
 and Ethel have read, we can come to no other con- 
 clusion than that Moses referred to this land. Let 
 us see what we have now learned. The Book of 
 Mormon eays that a branch of Joseph's tribe came 
 tG» Am&r^oa. The Bible says that his branches 
 sbc^uM rotn over the wall and that some of his tribe 
 ehouM o.^.oupy a land that was outside of that which 
 ■Vr'&s promised to Jacob's fathers, known as the Holy 
 Land, and that it should be to the utmost bound of 
 the everlasting hills. America is the farthest land 
 away from where Jacob stood when he made the pre- 
 diction, hence would be the utmost bound of the 
 everlasting hills. Moses describes Joseph's land as 
 wonderfully blessed in minerals and agricultural 
 products and resources. America is the only land 
 that fits the description, as it is more wonderfully 
 blessed in that way than any other land, hence the 
 claim of the Book of Mormon is true, and the Lord 
 has again vindicated the truthfulness of the state- 
 ment made by Amos, that he would do nothing 
 without revealing his secret to his servants the 
 prophets. We have now disposed of two of the 
 colonies that were led by the Lord to this country. 
 Now we will take up the third and last one. Harry, 
 
24 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 you may read from pages 120 and 121 of the Book of 
 Mormon, beginning at verse 15, and reading to 
 verse 22: 
 
 Harry. — **Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat 
 concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land 
 of Zarahemla: for behold, he being warned of the 
 Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and 
 as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord, 
 should also depart out of the land with him, into the 
 wilderness. And it came to pass that he did accord- 
 ing as the Lord had commanded him. And they 
 departed out of the land into the wilderness, as many 
 as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord; and 
 they were led by many preachings and prophesyings. 
 And they were admonished continually by the word 
 of God : and they were led by the power of his arm, 
 through the wilderness, until they came down into the 
 land which is called the land of Zarahemla- And 
 they discovered a people, who were called the people 
 of Zarahemla. Now, there was great rejoicing among 
 the people of Zarahemla; and also, Zarahemla did 
 rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the 
 people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which con- 
 tained the record of the Jews. Behold, it came to 
 pass that Mosiah discovered that the people of Zara- 
 hemla came out from Jerusalem, at the time that 
 Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive 
 into Babylon. And they journeyed in the wilder- 
 ness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord, 
 across the great waters, into the land where Mosiab 
 discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that 
 time forth." 
 
 Papa. — You may continue to read the following 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 25 
 
 passages, Harry: verse 27 on page 121; verse 62 on 
 page 169; verse 106 on page 348, and verges 45 and 
 46, on page 354, as this will give us an idea of who 
 these people were and their history : 
 
 Harry, — **And it came to pass that the people of 
 Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did unite together; and 
 Mosiah was appointed to be their king." *'Now 
 there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or 
 so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as 
 there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a 
 descendant of Mulok, and those who came with him 
 into the wilderness; and there were not so many of 
 the people of Nephi and of the people of Zarahemla 
 as there were of the Lamanites : yea, they were not 
 half so numerous." *'Now the land south was called 
 Lehi, and the land north was called Mulok, which 
 was after the sons of Zedekiah; for the Lord did 
 bring Mulok into the land north, and Lehi into the 
 land south." "Will ye say that the sons of Zedekiah 
 were not slain, all except it were Mulok? Yea, and 
 do you not behold that the seed of Zedekiah are with 
 us, and they were driven out of the land of Jeru- 
 salem?" 
 
 Pajpa. — This is, briefly, the history of the third 
 colony or company that came, or were led out of 
 Jerusalem by the hand of the Lord. If you will look 
 here, children, at this large wall -map I have of the 
 land as occupied by the people described in the Book 
 of Mormon, you will See that as nearly as we can 
 locate the landing of the two parties who came last, 
 those who came with Mulok landed in Central 
 America, and those who came with Lehi in Chili, in 
 South America. For in Book of Mormon terms the 
 
26 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 land southward meant South America, and the land 
 northward meant North America. Lehi landed in 
 the south and began to migrate northward, and 
 Mulok and his people landed in the north and 
 migrated southward until they met in the land of 
 Zarahemla in the north part of South America. Now 
 we will see what the Bible says about this third 
 colony. Ernest, you may read from Ezekiel 
 17:1-10: 
 
 Ernest, — **And the word of the Lord came unto 
 me, saying. Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak 
 a parable unto the house of Israel; and say, Thus 
 saith the Lord God : A great eagle with great wings, 
 long winged, full of feathers, which had divers colors, 
 came unto Lebanon, and took the highest branch of 
 the cedar: he cropped off the top of his young 
 twigs, and carried it into a land of traffick; he set it 
 in a city of merchants. He took also of the seed of 
 the land, and planted it in a fruitful field; he placed 
 it by great waters, and set it as a willow-tree. And 
 it grew, and became a spreading vine of low stature 
 whose branches turned toward him, and the roots 
 thereof were under him: so it became a vine, and 
 brought forth branches, and shot forth sprigs. There 
 was also another great eagle with great wings and 
 many feathers : and, behold, this vine did bend her 
 roots toward him, and shot forth her branches toward 
 him, that he might water it by the furrows of her 
 plantation. It was planted in a good soil by great 
 waters, that it might bring forth branches, and that 
 it might bear fruit, that it might be a goodly vine. 
 Say thou. Thus saith the Lord God; Shall it prosper? 
 shall he not pull up the roots thereof, and cut off the 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 27 
 
 fruit thereof, that it wither? it shall wither in all the 
 leaves of her spring, even without great power or 
 many people to pluck it up by the roots thereof. 
 Yea, behold, being planted, shall it prosper? shall it 
 not utterly wither, when the east wind touoheth it? 
 it shall wither in the furrows where it grew." 
 
 Papa. — The language here, of course, is figurative, 
 because the Lord says it is a riddle or a parable. The 
 great eagle with long wings full of feathers signifies 
 that it will fly a long ways, a great distance. It is to 
 take the highest branch of the cedar of Lebanon (in 
 verse 22 it says, "highest branch of the high cedar") 
 and it is to carry it into a goodly land described a8 
 fruitful, a land of merchants and surrounded by great 
 waters. The cedar or tree here must signify a man. 
 He is to be the highest or the high cedar or man, and 
 the eagle is to take one of his tender twigs or sons 
 and carry it away. To show that this is a generally 
 accepted interpretation of this figure, I will ask 
 Maude to read from this book. Dictionary of the 
 Bible, by Watson, page 578; article "Lebanon": 
 
 Maude, — "The cedar of Lebanon has, in all ages, 
 been reckoned as an object of unrivaled grandeur 
 and beauty in the vegetable kingdom. It is, accord- 
 ingly, one of the natural images which frequently 
 occur in the poetical style of the Hebrew prophets ; 
 and is appropriated to denote kings, princes, and 
 potentates of the highest rank. Thus the Prophet 
 Isaiah, whose writings abound with metaphors and 
 allegories of this kind, in denouncing the judgments 
 of God upon the proud and arrogant, declares that 
 the day of the Lord of Hosts shall be upon all the 
 cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, and 
 
28 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 upon all the oaks of Bashan. (See Isaiah 2: 12, 13.) 
 The king of Israel used the same figure in his reply- 
 to the challenge of the king of Judah. *The thistle 
 that was in Lebanon sent to the cedar that was in 
 Lebanon, saying, Give thy daughter to my son to 
 wife ; and there passed by a wild beast that was in 
 Lebanon, and trod down the thistle.' " 
 
 Papa. — What could be plainer than the narrative 
 of the Book of Mormon, that one of Zedekiah's sons 
 was brought by the Lord and given an inheritance in 
 this country? Zedekiah as king was the high cedar 
 of Lebanon, and one of his sons would be the twig 
 that would be cropped off. Then the seventh verse 
 speaks of another eagle. It, too, should be equipped 
 for long flight, being long winged and full of 
 feathers, and the two vines planted by these two 
 eagles, should grow towards each other and sustain 
 each other, and then should wither away and become 
 as though they had not been. What could be clearer 
 than that the first eagle spoken of here represents 
 the flight of Zedekiah's son, Mulok, to this land, and 
 that the second eagle represents the flight of Lehi 
 and those who came with him? Both of them came a 
 long ways, and they were both planted in a good 
 land, fruitful and rich. They grew together and 
 became one nation, and they both withered away. 
 The prophet then begins at the eleventh verse and 
 predicts the downfall of Zedekiah, his captivity and 
 death, and continues on that theme to the twenty- 
 first verse, then restates what Ernest has already 
 read. But I will ask him to read the balance of the 
 chapter, beginning at verse 22 : 
 
 Ernest, — "Thus saith the Lord God; I will also 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 29 
 
 take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and 
 will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young 
 twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon a high 
 mountain and eminent : in the mountain of the height 
 of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth 
 boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar : and 
 under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the 
 shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. 
 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the 
 Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted 
 the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have 
 made the dry tree to flourish : I the Lord have spoken 
 and have done it.*' 
 
 Papa, — When we take into consideration the fact 
 that the captivity of Judah with Zedekiah as their 
 king, and the coming out of these two colonies, the 
 one led by Lehi and the one in which Mulok came, 
 were all to take place almost simultaneously, we can 
 see no other meaning to the prediction than that we 
 have stated, hence we see clearly, I think, that the 
 Prophet Amos was right in the statement we have 
 before cited. 
 
 Maude, — It looks like there would have been no 
 secrets to be revealed after awhile, if God made it so 
 plain as you have showed it to us, papa. 
 
 Papa. — True, my dear, but men did not under- 
 stand it. It was something like Daniel says in his 
 twelfth chapter and tenth verse: "None of the 
 wicked shall understand; but the wise shall under- 
 stand," God frequently reveals his will and the 
 future to us, but we do not understand until the 
 events have transpired, then we wonder why we 
 could not have understood long before. 
 
30 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 Ethel. — Well, papa, so far yoii have made it very 
 plain, we think, but we want to hear and understand 
 further. Is there any statement in the Bible where it 
 is said that these people should leave a record behind? 
 God surely would have revealed this secret as well as 
 the others, would he not? 
 
 Papa. — Yes, my daughter; he has not neglected 
 anything, but, as Paul says, *'has not left himself 
 without witness." In the narrative in the Book of 
 Mormon we find that we are indebted to the second 
 colony, under Lehi, for all we know of the history of 
 all three colonies, and it is singular to note that, while 
 the Bible tells us of the coming of all the colonies, it 
 does not speak of any book or record coming to 
 us except through the second one, or those who were 
 descendants of Joseph of Egypt. You will remember 
 that I showed you from the blessing of Joseph's two 
 boys that Ephraim was put before Manasseh and that 
 Ephraim should become a multitude of nations; and 
 in Moses' blessing upon the different tribes, after 
 blessing and describing his land, he says they are the 
 ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of 
 Manasseh. Now, Ernest, you may read Hosea 
 8:11,12: 
 
 Ernest. — "Because Ephraim hath made many 
 altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin. I have 
 written to him the great things of my law, but they 
 were counted as a strange thing," 
 
 Papa. — Frequently in prophesying, the prophecy 
 was delivered in language that seemed to imply that 
 the thing prophesied of had already come to pass, 
 as notice the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah. Christ is 
 the one prophesied of in this chapter, but the Ian- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 31 
 
 guage, such as, **Who hath believed our report?" 
 '*Surely he hath borne our sorrows;" "He was 
 wounded for our transgressions ; " '*He was oppressed,- 
 and he was afflicted," all would seem to indicate that 
 the event had already come to pass, and yet it was 
 over seven hundred years in the future. Looking at 
 this prophecy in regard to the law of God written to 
 Ephraim as yet future, as we know that it must have 
 been, we have a striking fulfillment in the Book of 
 Mormon. It claims to be the law of God written to 
 Joseph's seed, the chief among whom was Ephraim, 
 and it has, certainly, been counted as a strange thing. 
 Ernest, you may now read from Ezekiel 37: 15-20: 
 
 Ernest. — *'The word of the Lord came again unto 
 me, saying. Moreover, thou son of man, take thee 
 one stick, and write upon it, for Judah, and for the 
 children of Israel his companions: then take another 
 stick, and write upon it. For Joseph, the stick of 
 Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his com- 
 panions: and join them one to another into one 
 stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 
 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto 
 thee, saying. Wilt thou not shew us what thou 
 meanest by these? say unto them, Thus saith the 
 Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, 
 which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of 
 Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even 
 with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, 
 and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks 
 whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before 
 their eyes." 
 
 Papa, — Sticks in Bible times were records, or what 
 we would call books. The art of making books as we 
 
32 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 have them now was not known then, so their records 
 were kept on plates, or what was more common, on 
 long strips of paper or parchment. At each end of 
 this long strip was a round stick attached like the 
 maps in the schoolroom. When they were not using 
 the record for reading or writing upon, it was rolled 
 upon these sticks, or one of them, and put away 
 in pigeonholes like these in my desk. When they 
 read the roll they would unroll from one of the sticks 
 and roll up on the other. The Jewish people use 
 them to-day in their worship. I have seen the priest 
 or rabbi reading them while a man stood upon each 
 side of him, one unrolling, the other rolling up the 
 parchment. By this explanation you can see that 
 God has authorized the writing of two records at 
 least, and hence both must be authoritative, and 
 acknowledged by him. One of these, the stick of 
 Judah, is the Bible, without doubt, but where is the 
 other? 
 
 Harry, — Could it not be the Old and New Testa- 
 ments that are spoken of here? 
 
 Papa. — That is a question that is often asked, and 
 quite frequently it is asserted by our opponents that 
 it really is the Old and New Testaments, but this 
 could not be, because the Old and New Testaments 
 were given to the same nation or people. These 
 people were known as Judah. Jacob had said in 
 blessing his son, Judah, **The scepter shall not 
 depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his 
 feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gath- 
 ering of the people be." — Genesis 49: 10. So we see 
 that the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, 
 wero given to Judah, hence they could not have been 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 33 
 
 the two books referred to as the stick of Judah and 
 the stick of Joseph in the hands of Ephraim. We 
 will give other reasons why this could not be the case 
 farther along in our talk when we get to another 
 head of our subject. 
 
 Harry, — In looking over the Book of Mormon while 
 we have been talking I have found a place that you 
 have marked, papa, on page 203, which reads: "And 
 Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the 
 son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, 
 who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son 
 of Joseph, who was sold into Egypt by the hands of 
 his brethren.*' If Lehi was a descendant of Manas- 
 seh, how can we call the Book of Mormon the stick 
 of Joseph in the hands of Ephraim? Would it not be 
 in the hands of Manasseh? 
 
 Papa. — Your question is a very natural one, my 
 boy, and some of our ministers will not use this pas- 
 sage in proof of the Book of Mormon because of the 
 statement you have read. I have never hesitated 
 about using it, however, for several reasons. First, 
 Lehi was only one of the men that came out of Jeru- 
 salem. We have Laban's servant, Zoram, and 
 Ishmael and his sons, all of whom may have been 
 descendants of Ephraim, and Lehi's wife also, which 
 would really make Ephraim predominate, as stated 
 by Moses when he says, *'They are the ten thousands 
 of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manas- 
 seh.'* Second. The obedient are sometimes called 
 Ephraim. Maude, you may take the Doctrine and 
 Covenants and read from secticsa 64, verse 7, first 
 sentence • 
 
34 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Maude. — "Behold, the Lord requireth the heart 
 and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient 
 shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last 
 days; and the rebellious shall be cut off out of the 
 land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not 
 inherit the land; for, verily, I say that the rebellious 
 are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall 
 be plucked out." 
 
 Papa. — This shows that the righteous are some- 
 times called Ephraim, and in this sense the stick of 
 Joseph, or the Book of Mormon, was certainly in the 
 hands of Ephraim. The third and last reason is 
 because by the spirit of inspiration Joseph Smith said 
 that it was the stick of Joseph and the time would 
 come when it and the Inspired Translation of the 
 New Testament would be bound together in one 
 cover, and that they would be literally one book. 
 This was fulfilled when the book called the "Two 
 Records" was put on sale at the Herald Office. You 
 can see it here in my library and in a great many 
 houses of the Saints. 
 
 Ethel. — Brother Scott said in his sermon that the 
 Bible foretold the coming forth of the Book of Mor- 
 mon. We would like to have you tell us about that, 
 papa. I am sure we have been very much interested 
 so far, but want to know all about it. 
 
 Papa. — Well, my dear. Brother Scott was right 
 about it, and while that portion of the evidence we 
 have gone over has been, as you say, very interest- 
 ing, the rest is fully as much so, if not more. You 
 are familiar with the manner in which the Book of 
 Mormon came forth, I think? 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 85 
 
 Harry. — Yes, papa, it was written on plates of 
 gold, by the different prophets that lived among the 
 people here, and when the last great battle was 
 fought the Prophet Moroni escaped, finished the 
 record and hid it in the ground, and Joseph Smith 
 was shown where it was by an angel, took it out of 
 the ground, and translated it into English. 
 
 Papa, — You are right, Harry, and which of you, 
 just in a few words, can tell me what the Book of 
 Mormon contains? 
 
 Ethel, — It contains, or claims to contain, the word 
 of God to the people that lived on this continent. 
 
 Papa, — Right you are, my daughter. Now, Maude, 
 can you tell me what the Bible calls the word of God? 
 
 Maude, — Christ says in John 17:17: "Sanctify 
 them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Is that 
 what you mean, papa? 
 
 Papa, — Yes, my dear. Here Christ calls the word 
 of God truth, so we have the matter standing like 
 this: The Book of Mormon claims to have come 
 out of the earth, and also claims to contain the word 
 of God, and the word of God, according to Jesus 
 Christ, is synonymous with truth, hence truth 
 literally came out of the earth, if we accept the Book 
 of Mormon statement. God had a hand, or was 
 instrumental in the bringing of this about, by pre- 
 serving the plates in the ground for hundreds of 
 years, and then showed Joseph Smith where to find 
 them. If God still maintains his character of a 
 revealer of secrets to his servants the prophets, we 
 ought to find something about this as well as the 
 other events that we have seen have been so won- 
 derfully foretold in the Bible. Ernest, you may read 
 
36 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 the eighty-fifth Psalm, beginning at the tenth verse, 
 and reading to the close of the chapter: 
 
 Ernest. — * 'Mercy and truth are met together; 
 righteousness and peace have kissed each other. 
 Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteous- 
 ness shall look down from heaven. Yea, the Lord 
 shall give that which is good; and our land shall 
 yield her increase. Righteousness shall go before 
 him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.'* 
 
 Papa, — Here we have it just as literally as the 
 English language could state it, just what the Book 
 of Mormon claims took place. In this prophecy of 
 David we have the time very definitely fixed when 
 truth shall spring out of the earth by the verse that 
 follows, which reads: *'Yea, the Lord shall give 
 that which is good; and our land shall yield her 
 increase." We will call attention to this further 
 along after we have read another prophecy that 
 relates to the coming forth of this book. In Isaiah 
 twenty-ninth chapter the Lord is speaking of some 
 nation that shall be as Jerusalem, or the city where 
 David dwelt. You may turn to the chapter and read 
 the first to the sixth verses, Ernest: 
 
 Ernest — '*Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where 
 David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill 
 sacrifices. Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall 
 be heaviness and sorrow : and it shall be unto me as 
 Ariel. And I will camp against thee round about, 
 and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I 
 will raise forts against thee. And thou shalt be 
 brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground 
 and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy 
 voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 37 
 
 out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out 
 of the dust. Moreover the multitude of thy strangers 
 shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the ter- 
 rible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away : yea, 
 it shall be at an instant suddenly. Thou shalt be 
 visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with 
 earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, 
 and the flame of devouring fire." 
 
 Papa. — Here the Lord evidently couples two events 
 together. After pronouncing a woe against Ariel, or 
 Jerusalem, he says, It^ meaning some other city or 
 nation evidently, shall be unto me as Ariel. As one 
 shall be destroyed so shall the other, but this one 
 shall be brought low, so low that its *'speech shall be 
 out of the ground," *'low out of the du>t." The 
 prophecy says how this nation shall be destroyed by 
 wars, earthquakes, tempests, and so forth, just as the 
 Book of Mormon declares that the people were 
 destroyed here. In the Book of Mormon it is 
 recorded that at the death of Christ there was one of 
 the greatest tempests and earthquakes that was ever 
 known here in this country, and that thousands of 
 the people were destroyed. And the wars were the 
 most terrible ever known. None were left to tell us 
 of these things. They were simply recorded on the 
 plates and came forth from the ground to us, hence 
 their speech has been literally from the "ground, '* 
 **from the dust," "whispered out of the dust," and 
 so forth. Language could not be more expressive of 
 the conditions as they existed in the bringing forth of 
 the Book of Mormon. Ernest, you may now read 
 the seventh and eighth verses: 
 
 Ernest. — "And the multitude of all the nations 
 
38 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against 
 her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be 
 as a dream of a night vision. It shall even be as 
 when a hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he 
 eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty; or as 
 when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drink- 
 eth; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and 
 his soul hath appetite : so shall the multitude of all 
 the nations be, that fight against mount Zion." 
 
 Papa. — I believe the prophet in these two verses is 
 describing the spiritual condition of the nations at 
 the time when the speech of these people was to 
 whisper low out of the dust. A better figure, or com- 
 parison, could not be used to describe the spiritual 
 condition of the world at the present time than that 
 used by the Prophet Isaiah in these two verses. At 
 the time that the Book of Mormon came forth from 
 the ground, and to a large extent since that time, 
 there have been great religious revivals all over the 
 world, but men have been induced to accept religion, 
 nearly always under an intense degree of excitement, 
 and their emotions have been worked upon until they 
 were in such a state of excitement that they were 
 ready to accept almost anything that came along 
 that claimed to be religion, and for the moment they 
 thought their spiritual hunger and thirst had been 
 appeased, but when they awoke from the excitement 
 and frenzy, they were just as hungry as before, and 
 they went right back into the same state or worse 
 than they were before, and remained that way until 
 the next revivalist came along and warmed them over 
 again only to go back again and again, until it is 
 almost impossible to interest men in the real food 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 39 
 
 that brings lasting satisfaction. The whole of this 
 twenty-ninth chapter relates, we believe, to the com- 
 ing forth of the Book of Mormon and conditions 
 surrounding it; so I will ask Ernest to continue and 
 read verses 9 to 12: 
 
 Ernest. — *'Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye 
 out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; 
 they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the 
 Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep 
 sleep, and hath closed your eyes : the prophets and 
 your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the 
 vision of all is become unto you as the words of a 
 book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is. 
 learned, saying. Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, 
 I can not; for it is sealed: and the book is delivered 
 to him that is not learned, saying. Read this, I pray 
 thee: and he saith, I am not learned." 
 
 Pajpa, — How perfectly does the prophet describe 
 present conditions in the first two verses Ernest has 
 read. Men are staggering under the various reli- 
 gious creeds of to-day. God removed the prophets 
 and seers from the earth because the people would 
 not receive them and cry out, "A Bible, a Bible, we 
 have got a Bible," honoring God's word as spoken 
 anciently, but denying his right, or that he will speak 
 to-day, until no wonder that the spirit of deep sleep 
 has been poured out upon the world. Then comes 
 the statement that a book is to come forth, its words 
 are to be delivered to one that is learned with a 
 request to read them, and he says he can not; for 
 it is sealed. The book itself is to be delivered to 
 one that is not learned with a request to read, but he 
 answers that he is not learned. These things were 
 
40 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 all fulfilled in the ooming forth of the Book of Mor- 
 mon. When the book was delivered to Joseph Smith, 
 the unlearned man (and I want to call your especial 
 attention to the fact that the prophecy says only the 
 words of the book are delivered to the learned man, 
 while the hook itself is delivered to the unlearned 
 man), he was commanded to copy some of the char- 
 acters as they were upon the plates and send them to 
 the learned with a request to decipher or read them. 
 This was done, and Martin Harris took them to Pro- 
 fessors Mitchell and Anthon, of New York City. 
 Professor Mitchell examined them, then sent Martin 
 JHarris to Professor Anthon with them, as Professor 
 Anthon was better acquainted with languages than 
 he was. Professor Anthon said if he would bring 
 the plates to him he would assist in the translation. 
 Martin Harris replied that part of the book was 
 sealed and the professor immediately replied, **I can 
 not read a sealed book." We will, however, let 
 Martin Harris tell his own story. Maude, you may 
 read it as given on page 202 of Bro. W. H. Kelley's 
 book called Presidency and Priesthood: 
 
 Maude. — **I went to the city of New York and pre- 
 sented the characters which had been transcribed, 
 with the translation thereof, to Professor Anthon, a 
 gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. 
 Professor Anthon stated that the translation was 
 correct; more so than any he had before seen trans- 
 lated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those 
 that were not translated, and he said that they were 
 Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic, and he 
 said that they were the true characters. He gave me 
 a certificate certifying to the people of Palmyra that 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 41 
 
 they were the true characters, and that the transla- 
 tion of such of them as had been translated was also 
 correct. I took the certificate' and put it into my 
 pocket, and was just leaving the house when Mr. 
 Anthon called me back and asked me how the young 
 man found out there were gold plates in the place 
 where he found them. I answered *that an angel of 
 God had revealed it unto him.' He then said unto 
 me, *Let me see the certificate.' I accordingly took 
 it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took 
 it and tore it to pieces, saying there was no such 
 thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I 
 would bring the plates to him he would translate 
 them. I informed him that part of the plates were 
 sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He 
 replied, *I can not read a sealed book.' " 
 
 Papa. — This narrative forms a complete fulfillment 
 of this prophecy of Isaiah's, so far. 
 
 Harry. — But, papa, isn't it possible that Joseph 
 Smith and Martin Harris read from Isaiah before, 
 and then did this to fulfill the prophecy or to pretend 
 to fulfill it? 
 
 Papa. — I do not think it very probable that they 
 did, but admitting that it was possible, there are 
 other things connected with the matter that are 
 utterly impossible that they could have controlled, 
 hence makes it out of the question that they deceived 
 in this. We will notice that farther on. 
 
 Ernest. — Did Professor Anthon ever acknowledge 
 that Martin Harris visited him and showed him the 
 paper with the characters on it? 
 
 Papa. — Yes. Some years afterwards he wrote to 
 a man by the name of Howe, who was writing a book 
 
42 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 against the church, and confessed, or made a state- 
 ment, so Mr. Howe says, and published his letter on 
 pages 270 to 272 in his book. You may read it, 
 Maude : 
 
 Maude, — **Some years ago, a plain, and apparently 
 simple-hearted farmer, called upon me with a note 
 from Doctor Mitchell of our city, now deceased, 
 requesting me to decipher, if possible, a paper, which 
 the farmer would hand me, and which Doctor M. 
 confessed he had been unable to understand. Upon 
 examining the paper in question, I soon came to the 
 conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax. 
 When I asked the person, who brought it, how he 
 obtained the writing, he gave me, as far as I can now 
 recollect, the following account: A *gold book,' 
 consisting of a number of plates of gold, fastened 
 together in the shape of a book by wires of the same 
 metal, had been dug up in the northern part of the 
 state of New York, and along with the book an enor- 
 mous pair of ^gold spectacles!^ These spectacles were 
 so large, that, if a person attempted to look through 
 them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards 
 one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in question 
 being altogether too large for the breadth of the 
 human face. Whoever examined the plates through 
 the spectacles, was enabled not only to read them, 
 but fully to understand their meaning. All this 
 knowledge, however, was confined at that time to a 
 young man, who had the trunk containing the book 
 and spectacles in his sole possession. This young 
 man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a 
 farm-house, and, being thus concealed from view, 
 put on the spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 48 
 
 through one of the glasses, deciphered the characters 
 in the book, and, having committed some of them to 
 paper, handed copies from behind the curtain, to 
 those who stood on the outside. . . . This paper was 
 in fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of 
 crooked characters disposed in columns, and had 
 evidently been prepared by some person who had 
 before hir". at the time a book containing various 
 alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and 
 flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed side- 
 ways, were arranged in perpendicular columns, and 
 the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle 
 divided into various compartments, decked with vari- 
 ous strange marks, and evidently copied after the 
 Mexican Calendar given by Humboldt." 
 
 Papa, — Mr. Anthon of course wrote this for pub- 
 lication in a book that was written against the church, 
 and hence tries to ridicule the whole story. But you 
 notice that he says, "As near as I can recollect," but 
 we know that his recollection must have been very 
 faulty or else Martin Harris told him some things that 
 he never told any one else. But his story in the 
 main agrees with that of Martin Harris, and while he 
 does not say, as Martin Harris said that he told him, 
 that the characters were Egyptian, Chaldaio, Assyriac, 
 and Arabic, he does say that the party who wrote the 
 paper had before him, evidently, several alphabets. 
 But he only writes from memory after years, while 
 Martin Harris made his report at once on his return 
 from New York. However, in spite of the evident 
 effort to cast ridicule upon the whole matter, it is 
 certain that the prophecy was fuliSlled in this trans- 
 action. 
 
44 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Ethel. — What were these stones through which 
 Joseph Smith claims to have translated the Book of 
 Mormon? 
 
 Pajpa. — They were called Urim and Thummim and 
 were used in ancient times by the prophets as a 
 means of receiving revelations from God. That is 
 what gave a prophet anciently the name of **a 
 seer," one who had the power to look through these 
 stones and see what was in the future. Our oppo- 
 nents have made a great deal of sport of this Urim 
 and Thummim. But in early Bible times it was quite 
 a good deal in use. It is mentioned in several places 
 in the Bible. Ernest, you may read Exodus 28: 30; 
 Leviticus 8: 8; Deuteronomy 33:8; Ezra 2: 63; also 
 1 Samuel 28: 6, giving the references as you read: 
 
 Ernest. — "And thou shalt put in the breastplate of 
 judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they 
 shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before 
 the Lord : and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the 
 children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord con- 
 tinually." — Exodus 28: 30. *'And he put the breast- 
 plate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the 
 Urim and the Thummim.*' — Leviticus 8: 8. **And of 
 Levi he said. Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be 
 with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, 
 and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of 
 Meribah." — Deuteronomy 33:8. **And when Saul 
 inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, 
 neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." — 
 i. Samuel 28 : 6. "And the Tirshatha said unto them, 
 that they should not eat of the most holy things, till 
 there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thum- 
 mim."— Ezra 2: 63. 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 45 
 
 Papa. — This last quotation is repeated word for 
 word in Nehemiah 7 : 65. Ethel, you may read what 
 Brother Blair says on this subject on page 97 of his 
 book called Joseph the Seer: 
 
 Ethel, — **The Septuagint Bible renders the signifi- 
 cation of Urim and Thummim as 'revelation and 
 truth. ^ "Whiston in a note on page 94, Josephus 
 says, that the *shining stones' were used in revealing 
 the will of God after a perfect and true manner to his 
 people Israel. Of these stones Josephus, Antiquities 
 of the Jews, book 3, chapter 9, paragraph 9, says: 
 *Now this breastplate and sardonyx left off shining 
 two hundred years before I composed this book." 
 
 Papa. — We see, then, that the use to which the 
 Urim and Thummim was put was in accord with the 
 ancient use. But I think you understand what these 
 instruments were, now, so we will go back again to 
 where we left off in the twenty -ninth chapter of 
 Isaiah. We had just come to that part where the 
 book had been delivered to one that was not learned, 
 saying, Read this, I pray thee, and he said I am not 
 learned. The learned said he could not read a sealed 
 book. The unlearned said that he was unlearned, so 
 the Lord says he will take the matter in hand. Ernest, 
 read verses 13 to 16 : 
 
 Ernest. — "Wherefore the Lord said. Forasmuch 
 as this people draw near me with their mouth, and 
 with their lips do honor me, but have removed their 
 heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught 
 by the precept of men: therefore, behold, I will pro- 
 ceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even 
 a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of 
 their wise men shall perish, and the understanding 
 
46 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them 
 that seek deep to hide the counsel from the Lord, 
 and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who 
 seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning 
 of things upside down shall be esteemed as the pot- 
 ter's clay : for shall the work say of him that made 
 it. He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of 
 him that framed it. He had no understanding?" 
 
 Papa. — There is not much to comment on in these 
 verses, as in the light of what preceded them they 
 explain themselves. The evident thought is that God 
 will proceed to do his work in such a way that he will 
 convince men that he is not dependent upon man's 
 wisdom to accomplish his work. He was not to be 
 defeated in the accomplishment of his purpose 
 because the learned and the unlearned could not read 
 the book. He who had framed the work had fore- 
 sight enough to see that it was brought to a proper 
 consummation, and would cause the wisdom of their 
 wise men to perish and the understanding of their 
 prudent men to be hid, by showing his power in 
 bringing forth his work. Now, Ernest, you may 
 read the balance of the chapter, and I would like to 
 have close attention, as there are some very impor- 
 tant things contained in it: 
 
 Ernest. — "Is it not yet a very little while, and 
 Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the 
 fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in 
 that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, 
 and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, 
 and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase 
 their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall 
 rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 47 
 
 one is brought to nought, and the scorn er is con- 
 sumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off; 
 that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a 
 snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn 
 aside the just for a thing of nought. Therefore thus 
 saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning 
 the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, 
 neither shall his face now wax pale. But when he 
 seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the 
 midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and 
 sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the 
 God of Israel. They also that erred in spirit shall 
 come to understanding, and they that murmured 
 shall learn doctrine." 
 
 Papa. — Because of the rejection and crucifixion of 
 Ohrist by the Jews, they were driven out of Palestine 
 or the Holy Land and scattered to every nation on 
 earth. The land itself was left barren and desolate 
 and was inhabited only by wandering tribes of 
 Arabs. The former and latter rains ceased to come, 
 hence the land ceased to be fertile. But in connec- 
 tion with the coming forth of this book it shall begin 
 to flourish again. It is very evident that David had 
 reference to the same thing that Isaiah did when he 
 says, "Truth shall spring out of the earth; and 
 righteousness shall look down from heaven. Yea, 
 the Lord shall give that which is good ; and our land 
 shall yield her increase.'* We know that the Book 
 of Mormon was published first in 1829, and the state- 
 ment of Isaiah is, "Is it not yet a very little while, 
 and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and 
 the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?" The 
 question now is. Did this come to pass soon after the 
 
4B BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 coming forth of the Book of Mormon? If it did, and 
 I shall presently show that it did, then it refutes the 
 supposition that Joseph Smith and Martin Harris got 
 up the whole scheme to deceive, for while they might 
 possibly, as Harry suggested, arrange that matter 
 about showing the characters to Professor Anthon, 
 they could not have arranged to have Palestine 
 brought back to its former fruitfulness. That would 
 be beyond the power of man. That is my reason for 
 making the remark a little while ago that there were 
 some things connected with the matter that precludes 
 the possibility of it being a concocted scheme. Ethel, 
 you may read now some of the evidences of the land 
 of Palestine being restored to its former fruitfulness. 
 You may read first in From Palmyra to Independ- 
 ence, by Brother Etzenhouser, some extracts from 
 reports from recent travelers in the Holy Land. The 
 first is found on page 125 and is from the account of 
 a man by the name of Louis Van Buren : 
 
 Ethel. — **I Arrived in Indiana a few days since, 
 from the Eastern Continent. I stopped at Joppa 
 nearly the whole winter. For my part I was well 
 pleased with the country. It is certainly a land of 
 most wonderful fruitfulness, with a delightsome cli- 
 mate, producing everything, if properly cultivated, 
 and from two to three crops in a year. They have 
 grain, fruit, and vegetables all the year round; in fact 
 I never was in such a country before. I have seen 
 much good country in Europe and America, but none 
 to compare with Palestine; its fruitfulness is uncom- 
 mon, and the climate the most delightsome; even in 
 winter I did not see the least sort of frost, and vegeta- 
 bles of every sort were growing in perfection in gar- 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 49 
 
 dens. It is a fact that the rain and dew are restored ; 
 recently, in 1853, the former and the latter rain were 
 restored, to the astonishment of the natives.*' — Louis 
 Van Buren, Sen., November 14, 1867. 
 
 Papa, — This quotation locates the time of the res- 
 toration of the former and latter rains. You may- 
 continue to read, Ethel, from page 127, giving the 
 source of the information as you read each extract : 
 
 Ethel. — *'The result of Doctor Barclay's observa- 
 tions is to show that the greatest fall of rain at Jeru- 
 salem in a single year was eighty -five inches, and the 
 smallest forty-four, the mean being fifty-one and one 
 sixth. These figures will be best appreciated by rec- 
 ollecting that the average rainfall at London during 
 the whole year is only twenty-five inches, and that in 
 the wettest parts of the country, such as Cumberland 
 and Devon, it rarely exceeds fifty inches. As in the 
 time of our Savior (Luke 12:54), the rains come 
 chiefly from the south or southwest; they commence 
 at the end of October or beginning of November, and 
 continue with greater or lesser constancy till the end 
 of February or middle of March, and, occasionally, 
 though rarely, till the end of April. Between April 
 and November, there is, with the rarest exception, an 
 uninterrupted period of fine weather, and skies with- 
 out a cloud. During the summer the dews are very 
 heavy, and often saturate the traveler's tent, as if a 
 shower had passed over it. The nights, especially 
 towards sunrise, are very cold, and thick fog or mists 
 are common all over the country. Thunder-storms 
 of great violence, are frequent during the winter 
 months." — Dictionary of Bible, by "William Smith, 
 page 636, article Palestine. **In D. A. Randall's 
 
60 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Handwriting of God, page nineteen, occurs his intro- 
 duction to Doctor Barclay of the Disciple Church and 
 missionary to the land of Palestine, and resident of 
 Jerusalem twenty years, but resident of Joppa at the 
 time of Randall's visit. 'The country about Joppa is 
 certainly a most delightful one'. Extensive plains 
 covered with luxuriant vegetation stretched along the 
 shore of the sea and far into the interior. Large 
 orange groves were just yielding their luxuriant 
 harvest of golden -colored fruit. Such oranges I had 
 never before seen, and I had no idea that they ever 
 grew to such a great size. The ground was dotted 
 with flowers of every hue and the air was vocal with 
 the music of birds.' — Page 23. *Lydia or Ludd. — 
 It numbers about two thousand inhabitants, and is 
 surrounded by beautiful groves, among which may 
 be seen the olive, fig, and pomegranate, etc' — Page 
 24. *Here, where we are now walking, and within 
 the walls, are several large patches of ground upon 
 which barley and wheat are growing. But a few 
 weeks since the plow passed over that ground, and 
 the seed was scattered upon the furrowed soil, and 
 close by it are great mounds of ruins covered with 
 vegetation.' — Page 60. *This is about the closing up 
 of the latter rains ; after a few days they expect no 
 more rain until the latter part of September or Octo- 
 ber.' — Page 261. *The tall, rank grass was waving 
 among the stone, and the ground had been plowed to 
 the very foundation walls.' " — Page 271. 
 
 Papa, — There are two phases of this prophecy in 
 regard to the Holy Land in this chapter. One relates 
 to the restoration of the land to its former fruitful - 
 ness, the other to the gathering of the Jews to their 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 61 
 
 land again. In verses 22 and 23 we find, "Therefore 
 thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, con- 
 cerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be 
 ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. But 
 when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, 
 in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, 
 and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear 
 the God of Israel." The words, **in the midst of 
 him," signify that the Jews or Jacob's children shall 
 be gathered together to' their own land. A similar 
 prophecy is found in Ezekiel thirty -seventh chapter 
 in connection with the uniting of the stick of Judah 
 and the stick of Joseph, showing that the three 
 prophets had the same thing in view; namely, David 
 in his eighty -fifth Psalm, Isaiah in his twenty -ninth 
 chapter, and Ezekiel in his thirty -seventh chapter. 
 You may read from the last quotation, Ernest, 
 verses 21 and 22 : 
 
 Ernest, — **And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord 
 God ; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from 
 among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will 
 gather them on every side, and bring them into their 
 own land : and I will make them one nation in the 
 land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king 
 shall be king to them all : and they shall be no more 
 two nations, neither shall they be divided into two 
 kingdoms any more at all." 
 
 Pa'pa, — This was to occur, or begin to be brought 
 about immediately following the uniting these two 
 sticks, of Judah and of Joseph. Here is another 
 reason why the thought suggested in Harry's ques- 
 tion some time ago, that these two sticks were the 
 Old and New Testaments, could not be correct, 
 
62 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 because at the coming of the New Testament the 
 very opposite of this occurred, and the Jews were 
 scattered instead of gathered. It is also a sufficient 
 refutation of the idea that the book spoken of in 
 Isaiah 29 is the New Testament, as is sometimes 
 suggested by our opponents, for the reason that 
 following the coming forth of the book, of Isaiah 29, 
 Lebanon was to become a fruitful field ; but the very 
 opposite occurred when the New Testament was 
 written and compiled an(^ given to the world. I 
 believe Christ had the same event in view when he 
 told his disciples in John 10 : 16 that he had other 
 sheep that he must visit. It is not imagination to say 
 that he therein predicted his own visit to the land of 
 America and his ministry to the Nephites. You may 
 turn and read the passage, Ernest: 
 
 Urnest. — "And other sheep I have, which are not 
 of this fold : them also I must bring, and they shall 
 hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one 
 shepherd." 
 
 Papa. — How alike is the statement here and in 
 Ezekiel which has just been read, *'One king shall be 
 king to them all." But now for the proof. You may 
 read from my scrap-books, Maude, some extracts 
 that I have clipped from different papers relating to 
 the subject of the gathering of the Jews to their own 
 land again. Here is one taken from the Literary 
 Digest oi 1896: 
 
 Maude. — ** Ac cording to a writer in the Christian 
 Advocate who has lived in Jerusalem for forty years, 
 the Jewish population of that city is increasing. 
 *Twenty-two years ago,' she says, 'there were only 
 between fifteen and twenty thousand Jews in Jerusa- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 63 
 
 lem. In those days no houses were to be found out- 
 side the magnificent walls, the gates of which are 
 closed at night. Since then many changes have 
 taken place and the Hebrew population — mainly on 
 account of the increase of the Jewish immigration 
 from Russia — now stands at between sixty and 
 seventy thousand.' '* 
 
 Fa-pa. — Now you may take this other and larger 
 scrap-book and read several extracts from that. I 
 can not begin to give you half of what I have col- 
 lected along this line, but what I shall ask you to 
 read will fully establish our point. You may read 
 from pages 152 and 160 : 
 
 Maude. — "Palestine and the Jews. — By the bishop 
 of Jerusalem. How startling are the facts of the 
 day ! The newspapers bristle with the movements of 
 the Jewish people. What they now are, commercially 
 to the world's industries, financially to the world's 
 progress, towards social questions aad to those of 
 peace and war, every one knows and feels. How 
 long will their rights in Christ be ignored? If the 
 order to * begin' missionary work at Jerusalem was 
 suspended only by the fact that the Jews were no 
 longer there to begin amongst, how about the state of 
 the Holy Land to-day? When the century opened 
 we might scarcely count their hundreds. In 1841 
 they were eight thousand. In 1887 — I am connecting 
 their rise in numbers with the eras of this bishopric, 
 as their future must greatly concern it — they were 
 sixty thousand, now they are about one hundred and 
 twenty-five thousand, or three times as many as 
 returned from the captivity in Babylon. The land is 
 also ceasing to sit desolate, it can support a larger 
 
54 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 population than it now holds. The restoration with 
 efficient regularity of the 'latter rains,' for so many 
 centuries withheld, gives back its historic fertility 
 wherever the hand of the cultivator is upon his plow, 
 and his sickle upon his vineyard and his fig-trees. 
 God's providence must be concerned in bringing 
 back the exiled race, and we note that his eye is 
 again upon the land for good in its necessary prepa- 
 ration for its inhabitants. And then, whilst every- 
 where there is on the surface the old prejudice 
 against the Gentiles and the old avowal of refusal of 
 Christ, there is a real and significant change from 
 the bitterness of Jewish infidelity. Jesus Christ or 
 Atheism is the only alternative before the Jew. The 
 revival of a religion of types and sacrifices is impos- 
 sible — I do not say against the spirit of this century, 
 but against a simpler and purer dispensation from 
 God, which has fulfilled them all. A great change of 
 front towards Christianity is taking place all over the 
 world, which in itself is a vast encouragement to 
 missionary effort. There is an avowal of disapproval 
 of the crucifixion of Christ. There is an admission 
 of his claim to be a prophet, to be the Messiah, at 
 least, of the Gentiles, to be the holiest of the sons of 
 men. The assertion of the Yemenite Jew, *Our 
 fathers never returned from the captivity until now; 
 we are not chargeable with the black deed of the 
 rulers against Jesus,' is but the expression of a 
 widespread desire to reverse the imprecation of eight- 
 een centuries past; it seems like a prayer, *May his 
 blood be forgiven to us and to our children!'" — 
 Ch^'istian Age, 
 Papa, — Now on page 160 you will find an article 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 55 
 
 entitled, **Jews in Palestine. The way being pre- 
 pared for the predicted return of the Jews to their 
 own land. An American traveler's observation": 
 
 Maude. — **Some notable facts of deep interest to 
 students of prophecy are reported by Doctor Harvey 
 B. Greene, of Amherst, Massachusetts, who returned 
 last week from an extensive tour of several months 
 duration in the Holy Land. Doctor Greene, as our 
 readers may remember, is the eminent botanist who 
 made the collection of familiar flowers of the Bible, 
 from which were made up the floral albums issued by 
 the Christian Herald, Doctor Greene has been busy 
 since the beginning of the year in and around Jeru- 
 salem, in Galilee, and east of the Jordan, searching 
 for the flowers referred to by Bible writers. His 
 quest took him into all parts of Palestine and brought 
 him into contact with the people who now live there 
 in the villages identified with the lives of our Lord 
 and the Patriarchs. He had unusually good oppor- 
 tunities of learning the present condition and char- 
 acter of the people and comparing them with those 
 he observed in them in his former visits. One of the 
 first matters forced upon his attention was the promi- 
 nence attained by Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa (the 
 ancient Joppa), and other towns. In some streets, 
 notably in Jerusalem, nearly every store is in the 
 hands of the Jews. Going out on the first morning 
 after his arrival in Jerusalem to purchase imple- 
 ments, etc., for his work, he was surprised to find the 
 principal stores closed. He could not understand 
 the suspension of business at first, but looking up at 
 the signs he recognized the Jewish names and 
 remembered it was Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. 
 
56 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Doctor Greene learned that there are fully forty- 
 thousand Jews in the city, which is double the num- 
 ber there were fifteen years ago, and they are grow- 
 ing in numbers and influence. The number who 
 went there at the time of the exodus from Russia 
 some ten or twelve years ago, was so large that the 
 Sultan issued a special order, forbidding any Jew of 
 Russian birth to settle there. Those who had settled 
 were not to be disturbed, but no more to be admitted. 
 Some, however, do gain admission still by the famil- 
 iar method of backsheesh. "With Jews of other 
 nationalities there appears to be no difficulty. Doc- 
 tor Greene was much interested in one colony man- 
 aged by the Jews. The property had been acquired 
 by fifty families, and five families have been sent 
 forward to occupy the ground and prepare it for 
 cultivation. The five families are supported by the 
 other forty -five, who furnished them with implements 
 and materials. When they report that the colony is 
 ready, the forty -five families will come out and take 
 possession. The tendency, however, is still to settle 
 in the cities, the Jews preferring trade as an occupa- 
 tion, to the tilling of the soil. When we consider how 
 many promises there are of the Jews being once more 
 in the possession of their own land and the statement 
 that they will be there when our Lord comes, these 
 facts observed by Doctor Greene are very significant. 
 The way is evidently being prepared for their return 
 and the advance column is already in possession. To 
 this must be added the suggestion of Holman Hunt, 
 the famous artist, that the Jews should lease Pales- 
 tine from the Sultan, giving him guarantees of 
 increased revenues, a proposal which Mr. Hunt says 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS fSTi 
 
 he would favorably consider." — Editorial in Chris- 
 tian Her aid and /Signs of Our Times, June 10, 1896. 
 Papa. — While I have not presented a tithe of what 
 might be presented, and even of that which I have 
 collected, yet this is, I think, sufficient to show you 
 that this part of Isaiah's, David's, and Ezekiel's 
 prophecies is being fulfilled. Some have said that 
 because in the eleventh verse of the twenty -ninth 
 chapter of Isaiah it says, *'The vision of all is become 
 as the words of a book that is sealed," that it is 
 simply a parable or comparison, but in the eighteenth 
 verse this thought is refuted. The prophet after say- 
 ing, **Is it not yet a very little while and Lebanon 
 shall be turned into a fruitful field?" says in the 
 eighteenth verse, "And in (hat day shall the deaf 
 hear the words of the book,^' so there was actually to 
 be a book, and it was to come forth just prior to the 
 time when Lebanon was to be blessed with fruitful - 
 ness and David's land should **yield her increase." 
 And while we are on this subject, I want to introduce 
 some passages from the Book of Mormon which will 
 show that whoever wrote it must have had prophetic 
 insight, whether it was written by the ancient Nephite 
 prophets as claimed, or as some assert by Joseph 
 Smith or Sidney Rigdon or Solomon Spalding. But 
 first I wish you to hear what the condition of the land 
 of Palestine was when the Book of Mormon came 
 forth. I have an old book published in 1832 — two 
 years after the Book of Mormon was published — a 
 dictionary of the' Bible written by Richard Watson 
 and published in New York City for the Methodist 
 Episcopal Church. Ernest, you may turn to page 
 517 and read a portion of his article on Jerusalem : 
 
58 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Ernest. — **The Jerusalem of sacred history is, in 
 fact, no more. Not a vestige remains of the capital 
 of David and Solomon; not a monument of Jewish 
 times is standing. The very course of the walls is 
 changed, and the boundaries of the ancient city are 
 become doubtful. The monks pretend to show the 
 sites of the sacred places; but neither Calvary, nor 
 the holy sepulcher, much less the Dolorous Way, the 
 house of Caiaphas, etc., have the slightest preten- 
 tions to even a probable identity with the real places 
 to which the tradition refers. Doctor E. D. Clarke 
 has the merit of being the first modern traveler who 
 ventured to speak of the preposterous legends and 
 clumsy forgeries of the priests with the contempt 
 which they merit. *To men interested in tracing, 
 within its walls, antiquities referred to by the docu- 
 ments of sacred history, no spectacle,' remarks the 
 learned traveler, *can be more mortifying than the 
 city in its present state. The mistaken piety of the 
 early Christians, in attempting to preserve, has either 
 confused or anihilated the memorials it was anxious 
 to render conspicuous. Viewing the havoc thus 
 made, it may now be regretted that the Holy Land 
 was ever rescued from the dominion of the Saracens, 
 who were far less barbarous than their conquerers. 
 The absurdity, for example, of hewing the rocks of 
 Judea into shrines and chapels, and of disguising the 
 face of nature with painted domes and guilded mar- 
 ble coverings, by way of commemorating the scenes 
 of our Savior's life and death, is so evident and so 
 lamentable, that even Sandys, with all his credulity, 
 could not avoid a happy application of the reproof 
 conveyed by the Roman satirist against a similar 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 69 
 
 violation of the Egerian fountain.' Doctor Richard- 
 son remarks, 'It is a tantalizing circumstance for the 
 traveler who wishes to recognize in his walks the site 
 of a particular building, or the scenes of memorable 
 events, that the greater part of the objects mentioned 
 in the discription both of the inspired and the Jewish 
 historian, are entirely removed, and razed from their 
 foundation, without leaving a single trace or name 
 behind to point out where they stood. Not an 
 ancient tower, or gate, or wall, or hardly even a 
 stone, remains. The foundations are not only 
 broken up, but every fragment of which it is com- 
 posed is swept away, and the spectator looks upon 
 the bare rock with hardly a sprinkling of earth to 
 point out her gardens of pleasures or groves of 
 idolatrous devotion. And when we consider the 
 palaces and towers and walls about Jerusalem, and 
 that the stones of which some of them were con- 
 structed were thirty feet long, fifteen feet broad, and 
 seven and a half feet thick, we are not more aston- 
 ished at the strength, and skill, and perseverance, by 
 which they were constructed, than shocked by the 
 relentless and brutal hostility by which they were 
 shattered and overthrown, and utterly removed from 
 our sight. A few gardens still remain on the sloping 
 base of Mount Zion, watered from the pool of Siloam ; 
 the gardens of Gethsemane are still in a sort of ruined 
 cultivation; the fences are broken down, and the 
 olive-trees decaying, as if the hands that dressed and 
 fed them were withdrawn ; the Mount of Olives still 
 retains a languishing verdure, and nourishes a few 
 of those trees from which it derives its name; but all 
 round about Jerusalem the general aspect is blighted 
 
eO BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 and barren; the grass is withered; the bare rock 
 looks through the scanty sward; and the grain itself, 
 like the staring progeny of famine, seems in doubt 
 whether to come to maturity or die in the ear. The 
 vine that was brought from Egypt is cut off from the 
 midst of the land; the vineyards are wasted; the 
 hedges are taken away; and the graves of the 
 ancient dead are open and tenantless.' On the 
 accomplishment of prophecy in the condition in 
 which this celebrated city has remained for ages, 
 Keith well remarks : *It formed the theme of prophecy 
 from the death -bed of Jacob; and as the seat of the 
 government of the children of Judah, the scepter 
 departed not from it till the Messiah appeared, on 
 the expiration of seventeen hundred years of the 
 death of the patriarch, and to the period of its deso- 
 lation, prophesied by Daniel, had arrived. It was to 
 be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the time of the 
 Gentiles should be fulfilled. The time of the Gentiles 
 is not yet fulfilled, and Jerusalem is still trodden 
 down of the Gentiles. The Jews have often attempted 
 to recover it: no distance of space or of time, can 
 separate it from their affections; they perform their 
 devotions with their faces toward it, as if it was the 
 object of their worship as well as their love; and, 
 although their desire to return be so strong, indelible, 
 and innate, that every Jew, in every generation, 
 counts himself an exile, yet they have never been 
 able to rebuild their temple, nor to recover Jerusalem 
 from the hands of the Gentiles. But greater power 
 than that of a proscribed and exiled race has been 
 added to their own, in attempting to frustrate the 
 counsel that professed to be of God. Julian, the 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 61 
 
 emperor of the Romans, not only permitted, but 
 invited the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem and their tem- 
 ple; and promised to reestablish them in their pater- 
 nal city. By that single act, more than by all his 
 writings, he might have destroyed the credibility of 
 the gospel, and restored his beloved, but deserted 
 Paganism. The zeal of the Jews was equal to his 
 own; and the work was begun by laying again the 
 foundations of the temple. It was never accomp- 
 lished, and the prophecy stands fulfilled. But even 
 if the attempt of Julian had never been made, the 
 truth of the prophecy is unassailable. The Jews 
 have never been reinstated in Judea. Jerusalem has 
 ever been trodden down of the Gentiles. The edict 
 of Adrian was renewed by the successors of Julian; 
 and no Jew could approach unto Jerusalem but by 
 bribery or by stealth. It was a spot unlawful for them 
 to touch. In the Crusades all the power of Europe 
 was employed to rescue Jerusalem from the heathens, 
 but equally in vain. It has been trodden down for 
 nearly eighteen centuries by its successive masters, 
 by Romans, Grecians, Persians, Saracens, Mame- 
 lukes, Turks, Christians, and again by the worst of 
 rulers — the Arabs and the Turks, and could anything 
 be more improbable to have happened, or more 
 impossible to have been foreseen by man, than that 
 any people should be banished from their own capital 
 and country, and remain expelled and expatriated 
 for nearly eighteen hundred years? Did the same 
 fate ever befall any nation, though no prophecy 
 existed respecting it? Is there any doctrine in Scrip- 
 ture so hard to be believed as was this single fact at 
 the period of its prediction? and even with the exam- 
 
62 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 pie of the Jews before us, is it likely, or is it credible, 
 or who can foretell that the present inhabitants of 
 any country upon earth shall be banished into all 
 nations, retain their distinctive character, meet with 
 an unparalleled fate, continue a people, without a 
 government and without a country, and remain an 
 indefinite period, exceeding seventeen hundred 
 years, till the fulfillment of a prescribed event which 
 has yet to he accomplished? Must not the knowledge 
 of such truths be derived from that prescience alone 
 which scans alike the will and the ways of mortals, 
 the actions of future nations, and the history of the 
 latest generations?' " 
 
 Papa, — Do you wonder, children, now, that I made 
 the statement that Joseph Smith could not have 
 brought about the changes in Palestine? When this 
 man says that "all the power of Europe" tried it and 
 failed because the prescribed event that should pre- 
 cede its being reinstated had not yet come to pass? 
 He says the period of the prophecy was indefinite. 
 There is nothing stated as to when the time of the 
 Gentiles should be fulfilled. But here is a book that 
 was published in 1830 which says the time has come 
 and the forces which God alone can control are being 
 put in motion to bring about the condition spoken of, 
 and lo, it comes to pass, although those who accepted 
 the book had to wait some twenty years for its 
 accomplishment. That prescience which foretold the 
 one must have been instrumental in foretelling its 
 soon accomplishment. Now, Harry, you may read the 
 statements in the Book of Mormon which refer to this 
 matter. You may read first from the eleventh chap- 
 ter of Nephi, verses 59 to 64 : 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 63 
 
 Harry. — **For after the book of which I have 
 spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the 
 Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there 
 shall be many which shall believe the words which 
 are written ; and they shall carry them forth unto the 
 remnant of our seed; and then shall the remnant 
 of our seed know concerning us, how that we came 
 out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of 
 the Jews. And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall 
 be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be 
 restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also 
 to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had 
 among their fathers. And then shall they rejoice; 
 for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them 
 from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness 
 shall begin to fall from their eyes : and many genera- 
 tions shall not pass away among them, save they 
 shall be a pure and a delightsome people. And it 
 shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered 
 also shall begin to believe in Christ: and they shall 
 begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as 
 many as shall believe in Christ, shall also become a 
 delightsome people. And it shall come to pass that 
 the Lord God shall commence his work, among all 
 nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring 
 about the restoration of his people upon the earth." 
 
 Papa, — Compare this statement with the one 
 Maude has just read from the bishop of Jerusalem 
 and you have a fulfillment as far as the Jews are 
 concerned. They are not only beginning to be 
 gathered in upon the land but they are beginning to 
 acknowledge the claims of Christ to divinity. I 
 myself heard Rabbi Hirsch^ of Chicago, call Christ 
 
64 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 "that matchless man," and publicly avow his belief 
 in him as the Son of God. The prediction that many 
 should believe in the Book of Mormon is being ful- 
 filled, also the Book of Mormon is being taken to the 
 Indians, who are the **remnant of our seed" spoken 
 of here. I will now ask you, Harry, to read several 
 verses. Christ was speaking to the Nephite people 
 and his words are recorded by Nephi on pages 411 to 
 413. You may read verses 80 and 83 of chapter 9, 
 and verses 3 to 5 of chapter 10 : 
 
 Harry. — "And behold, this is the thing which I will 
 give unto you for a sign, for verily I say unto you, 
 that when these things which I declare unto you, and 
 which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, 
 and by the power of the Holy Ghost, which shall be 
 given unto you of the Father, shall be made known 
 unto the Gentiles, that they may know concerning 
 this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, 
 and concerning this my people who shall be scattered 
 by them." "And when these things come to pass, 
 that thy seed shall begin to know these things, it 
 shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that 
 the work of the Father hath already commenced unto 
 the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made 
 unto the people who are of the house of Israel." 
 "Verily, I say unto you. At that day shall the work 
 of the Father commence among all the dispersed of 
 my people; yea, even the tribes which have been 
 lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusa- 
 lem. Yea, the work shall commence among all the 
 dispersed of my people, with the Father, to prepare 
 the way whereby they may come unto me, that they 
 may call on the Father in my name; yea, and then 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 65 
 
 shall the work commence, with the Father, among all 
 nations, in preparing the way whereby his people 
 may be gathered home to the land of their inherit- 
 ance. And they shall go out from all nations; and 
 they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight; for I 
 will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be 
 their rearward. And then shall that which is written 
 come to pass.'* 
 
 Papa. — When we take into consideration that the 
 Book of Mormon was published in 1829, when there 
 was no visible evidence that the Lord had begun to 
 prepare the way for the Jews to return to their land, 
 and it was not made possible for them to return in 
 any great numbers until after the former and latter 
 rains were restored, which did not take place, accord- 
 ing to Mr. Van Buren, until 1853, we can only look 
 upon this statement made in the Book of Mormon as 
 one of the most remarkable of fulfilled prophecies. I 
 want to call your attention, too, to the wording of the 
 prophecy, "They shall not go out in haste nor go by 
 flight." Marion Harland says in her book called the 
 Home of the Bible, that in 1834 there were only about 
 a thousand Jews in Palestine. The bishop of Jeru- 
 salem says that in 1840 there were eight thousand, 
 and this has gradually and slowly increased until in 
 seventy years there have only about one hundred 
 and twenty-five thousand gone in to possess the land. 
 And Doctor Greene tells us that at one time when the 
 Jews were about to come in in haste, by an edict 
 of the Sultan they were stopped and made to go more 
 slowly. To foresee these things and foretell them 
 would be more than human, hence must be divine. 
 I will ask Harry to read just one more passage along 
 
86 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 this line. This is what Nephi himself says on page 
 422, verse 38: 
 
 Harry. — **And now behold, I say unto you, that 
 when the Lord shall see fit, in his wisdom, that these 
 sayings shall come unto the Gentiles, according to 
 his word, then ye may know that the covenant which 
 the Father hath made with the children of Israel, 
 concerning their restoration to the lands of their 
 inheritance, is already beginning to be fulfilled; and 
 ye may know that the words of the Lord, which have 
 been spoken by the holy prophets, shall be fulfilled; 
 and ye need not say that the Lord delays his coming 
 unto the children of Israel; and ye need not imagine 
 in your hearts that the words which have been 
 spoken are vain, for behold, the Lord will remember 
 his covenant which he hath made unto his people of 
 the house of Israel." 
 
 Papa, — If a prophecy recorded in the Bible and 
 afterwards fulfilled to the very letter is conclusive 
 evidence of the divinity of that book, which is gen- 
 erally conceded, then the same rule ought to hold 
 good in regard to the Book of Mormon. But we are 
 not through with this twenty-ninth chapter of Isaiah 
 yet in its relation to the Book of Mormon. So I will 
 ask Ernest to read again verses 19 to 21 that we may 
 have them fresh in our minds : 
 
 Ernest.— ^^HhQ meek also shall increase their joy 
 in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in 
 the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible one is 
 brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and 
 all that watch for iniquity are cut off : that make a 
 man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 67 
 
 that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for 
 a thing of nought." 
 
 Papa. — You notice that these things spoken of in 
 these verses Ernest has just read follow the state- 
 ment that *'in that day shall the deaf hear the words 
 of the book." All these things spoken of here are to 
 be the result of hearing the words of the book, or the 
 Lord's work when this book is brought forth. At 
 any rate the book evidently is to be a factor in 
 bringing about the results named. **The meek also 
 shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor 
 among men shall rejoice," signify that like it was 
 in Christ's time, as shown in Mark 12:37 and Luke 
 7: 22, the **common people" would hear gladly, and 
 the **poor" would have the gospel preached to them 
 and they would rejoice therein. This is true to the 
 fullest extent. The ministers of this * 'marvelous 
 work and a wonder" do not as a rule have the rich to 
 speak to, and when they are preached to they do not 
 obey the teaching, but few of the high ones obey, the 
 same as they did when Christ preached unto them. 
 The pride of the rich keeps them away because they 
 can not bear the reproach of the world that would be 
 theirs if they joined this church, that is like the sect 
 that Paul was representing, "everywhere spoken 
 against." (Acts 28:22.) So many of the "poor" 
 have accepted this "latter-day" work, that the rich 
 scornfully say that we only get the "offscourings" of 
 the earth. Poor we may be, so far as this world's 
 goods are concerned, but we are rich in "faith" and 
 in the favor of God. The next two verses evidently 
 refer to the infidel and unbeliever. "The scorner," 
 "the terrible one," "they that watch for iniquity," 
 
68 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 "that make a man an offender for a word," all shall 
 be cut off and confounded by the testimony of this 
 book, all of which has come literally to pass, where- 
 ever this book has been used as a second witness for 
 God. Many have been the infidels that have had to 
 believe, when they found such an exact agreement 
 between the Bible and this **sealed book*' of Isaiah. 
 And those who reject this book reject one of the 
 mightiest instruments God has ever placed in the 
 hands of men to prove the Bible true and convert 
 men to Christ. I will now conclude the examination 
 of this wonderful prophecy of Isaiah by asking 
 Ernest to read the last verse and we will see how 
 this, too, confirms the rest: 
 
 Ernest, — **They also that erred in spirit shall 
 come to understanding, and they that murmured 
 shall learn doctrine." 
 
 Papa, — When the Book of Mormon was first pub- 
 lished the Christian world was very much disturbed 
 over doctrine, and is yet where that book is not 
 accepted; but accept that book, and differences of 
 opinion on certain doctrines disappear as mists 
 before the rising sun. It is much plainer than the 
 Bible on a great many doctrines. We will take 
 up a few of them. In the first place, take the 
 doctrine of "present revelation from God," or that 
 God will continue to reveal himself to men, angel 
 ministration, miracles, prophecy, tongues, and so 
 forth. The acceptance of the Book of Mormon is 
 confession of itself that God still reveals his will 
 to man and that he carries on his work by angelic 
 ministration, for it was through that means the book 
 was brought to the knowledge of men. I will ask 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 69 
 
 Harry to read an extract from Moroni, page 478, 
 verses 24 to 36: 
 
 Harry, — "And as sure as Christ liveth, he spake 
 these words unto our fathers, saying, Whatsoever 
 thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is 
 good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold 
 it shall be done unto you. Wherefore, my beloved 
 brethren, hath miracles ceased, because Christ hath 
 ascended into heaven, and hath set down on the 
 right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights 
 of mercy which he hath upon the children of men ; 
 for he hath answered the ends of the law, and he 
 claimeth all those who have faith in him : and they 
 who have faith in him will cleave unto every good 
 thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the 
 children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the 
 heavens? And because he hath done this, my 
 beloved brethren, hath miracles ceased? Behold, I 
 say unto you, nay; neither have angels ceased to 
 minister unto the children of men. For behold, they 
 are subject unto him, to minister according to the 
 word of his command, shewing themselves unto them 
 of strong faith and a firm mind, in every form of 
 godliness. And the office of their ministry is, to call 
 men unto repentance, and to fulfill and to do the 
 work of the covenants of the Father which he hath 
 made unto the children of men, to prepare the way 
 among the children of men, by declaring the word of 
 Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they 
 may bear testimony of him; and by so doing, the 
 Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men 
 may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may 
 have place in their hearts, according to the power 
 
70 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the 
 Father the covenants which he hath made unto the 
 children of men. And Christ hath said, If ye will 
 have faith in me, ye shall have power to do whatso- 
 ever thing is expedient in me. And he hath said, 
 Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me 
 and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, 
 that ye may be saved. *And now my beloved breth- 
 ren, if this be the case that these things are true 
 which I have spoken unto you, and God will show 
 unto you with power and great glory at the last day, 
 that they are true; and if they are true, has the day 
 of miracles ceased? Or have angels ceased to appear 
 unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the 
 power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so 
 long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or 
 there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be 
 saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay, for it is by faith 
 that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that 
 angels appear and minister unto men ; wherefore if 
 these things have ceased, wo be unto the children of 
 men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain ; for 
 no man can be saved, according to the words of 
 Christ, save they shall have faith on his name; 
 wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith 
 ceased also; and awful is the state of man: for they 
 are as though there had been no redemption made." 
 Papa, — This is a lengthy quotation, but it settles 
 two different kinds of belief that are in the world 
 to-day. One class of so-called Christians say the 
 Holy Ghost does not come to-day; the other class 
 says that he comes and we can enjoy his influence, 
 but he does not act in the same way that he did as 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 71 
 
 described by Paul in 1 Corinthians twelfth chapter. 
 But in the thirty-fourth and thirty-fifth verses, which 
 Harry has read, we are told that he not only has, but 
 will come as long as there shall be one man upon the 
 face of the earth to be saved, and that he will operate 
 through tongues, prophecies, healing, angelic minis- 
 trations, visions, and so forth. There are many more 
 passages, but time would fail us if we quoted them 
 all. It is evident, however, that one after saying 
 that he believed the Book of Mormon, would hardly 
 say that he did not believe in the continuation of 
 miraculous gifts through the Holy Ghost, after such a 
 positive statement as we find here. We now take 
 another doctrine over which there has been much 
 controversy; namely, infant baptism. Harry, you 
 may read from a letter that Mormon wrote to his son 
 Moroni, page 480, verses 4 to 11 : 
 
 Harry. — "And now my son I speak unto you con- 
 cerning that which grieveth me exceedingly, for it 
 grieveth me that there should disputations rise 
 among you. For if I have learned the truth, there 
 has been disputations among you concerning the 
 baptism of your little children. And now my son, 
 I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this 
 gross error should be removed from among you; 
 for, for this intent I have written this epistle. For 
 immediately after I had learned these things of you, 
 I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And 
 the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the 
 Holy Ghost, saying. Listen to the words of Christ, 
 your Redeemer, your Lord, and your God. Behold, 
 I came into the world not to call the righteous, but 
 sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, 
 
72 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 but they that are sick; wherefore little children are 
 whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; 
 wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in 
 me, that it hath no power over them ; and the law of 
 circumcision is done away in me. And after this 
 manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God 
 unto me; wherefore my beloved son, I know that it 
 is solemn mockery before God, that ye should bap- 
 tize little children. Behold I say unto you, that this 
 thing shall ye teach, repentance and baptism unto 
 those who are accountable and capable of commit- 
 ting sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent 
 and be baptized, and humble themselves as their 
 little children, and they shall all be baved with their 
 little children: and their little children need no 
 repentance, neither baptism." 
 
 Papa. — This is not all that he says about the 
 matter, but this certainly is plain enough so that 
 none need misunderstand, and should be the end of 
 controversy. The doctrine of baptism has also been 
 a bone of contention. Some say that baptism is for 
 the remission of sins, some that it is performed as a 
 sign that our sins have been previously remitted. 
 Some say baptism is to be administered by immersion 
 only, some sprinkle a little water upon the candidates, 
 some pour a little water upon them, and call it bap- 
 tism. The Book of Mormon settles all of these dis- 
 puted points in a very few words, also as to whether 
 the Holy Ghost comes at the moment of conversion 
 or after baptism. Harry, you may read verse 29 : 
 
 Harry. — "And the first-fruits of repentance is bap- 
 tism ; and baptism cometh by faith, unto the fulfilling 
 the commandments; and the fulfilling the command- 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 73 
 
 merits bringeth remission of sins; and the remission 
 of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; 
 and because of meekness and lowliness of heart, 
 Cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Com- 
 forter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love 
 endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall 
 come, when all the saints shall dwell with God." 
 
 Papa. — This is also very easy to be understood, 
 and brings out the principles of the gospel in their 
 regular order: Faith, Repentance, Baptism for the 
 remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
 Now you may read from page 393 a statement made 
 by Christ that not only shows the proper mode of 
 baptism is immersion, but that men should receive 
 the right or power from God to baptize, or in other 
 words be authorized by him to act in his name. Read 
 from verses 11 to 20 : 
 
 Harry. — "And Nephi arose and went forth, and 
 bowed himself before the Lord, and he did kiss his 
 feet. And the Lord commanded him that he should 
 arise. And he arose and stood before him. And the 
 Lord said unto him, I give unto you power that ye 
 shall baptize this people, when I am again ascended 
 into heaven. And again the Lord called others, and 
 said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them 
 power to baptize. And he said unto them. On this 
 wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputa- 
 tions among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso 
 repenteth of his sins through your words, and desireth 
 to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye bap- 
 tize them : Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the 
 water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And 
 now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, 
 
74 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 calling" them by name, saying: Having authority 
 given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name 
 of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 
 Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the 
 water, and come forth again out of the water. And 
 after this manner shall ye baptize in my name, for 
 behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and 
 the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in 
 the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and 
 I are one. And according as I have commanded 
 you, thus shall ye baptize.'* 
 
 Papa. — As in the other matters we have examined, 
 so in this there is no chance for controversy over the 
 manner in which baptism should be administered. 
 This quotation also settles another dispute about the 
 number of times one should be immersed. There are 
 those who believe in what is called "trine immer- 
 sion"; that is, they lead the candidate out into the 
 water and immerse him face down three times, first 
 in the name of the Father, then of the Son, then of 
 the Holy Ghost, making three separate acts ; but this 
 settles that question by saying that all three names 
 shall be used, then the immersion should take place. 
 It settles the question of authority, too. Some men, 
 recognizing that they had no authority from God to 
 act in his name, have very learnedly tried to show 
 that in Matthew twenty- eighth chapter and nine- 
 teenth verse, where Christ tells his disciples, or apos- 
 tles, to go out and baptize in the name of the Father, 
 Son, and Holy Ghost, that he did not say "in," but 
 **into," as Alexander Campbell says on page 202 of 
 his Christian System. **In the name" is equivalent 
 to **by the authority of." Not daring to assume the 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 75 
 
 authority to administer in the name of Christ, he 
 tries to change the word, arguing that the original 
 did not read **in" but "into." But this book they 
 can not tamper with, and it teaches that the one who 
 administers baptism must do so by the authority of 
 Jesus Christ. We will now take up the ordinance of 
 laying on of hands for the giving of the Holy Ghost. 
 Harry, you may read from page 257, verses 111 and 
 112; 406, verse 51, and 474, the whole of chapter 2 
 of the book of Moroni: 
 
 Harry. — "Now it came to pass, that when Alma 
 had said these words, that he clapped his hands upon 
 all them who were with him. And behold, as he 
 clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with 
 the Holy Spirit.*' "And it came to pass that when 
 Jesus had made an end of these sayings, he touched 
 with his hand the disciples whom he had chosen, one 
 by one, even until he had touched them all, and 
 spake unto them as he touched them; and the multi- 
 tude heard not the words which he spoke, therefore 
 they did not bear record; but the disciples bear 
 record that he gave them power to give the Holy 
 Ghost.*' 
 
 Papa. — In the next quotation Moroni gives the 
 history of this transaction that Harry has just read : 
 
 Harry. — "The words of Christ, which he spake 
 unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, 
 as he laid his hands upon them. And he called them 
 by name, saying. Ye shall call on the Father in my 
 name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done 
 this, ye shall have power that on him whom ye shall 
 lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in 
 my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles. 
 
76 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time 
 of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, 
 but the disciples heard it, and on as many as they 
 laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost." 
 
 Papa. — You will notice that as Nephi says he 
 touched them with his hand, Moroni says he laid his 
 hands upon them, both meaning the same thing. The 
 statement that the apostles at Jerusalem laid on hands 
 after prayer is exactly in accord with the account as 
 given in the eighth chapter of Acts, where Peter 
 and John went down to Samaria to confirm the people 
 whom Philip had baptized. The narrative is, "Who, 
 when they came down, prayed for them." "Then 
 laid they their hands on them, and they received the 
 Holy Ghost." Alma "clapped" his hands on those 
 that were with him. "Touched," "laid," and 
 "clapped" their hands on them all mean the same 
 thing, but are the different ways these men wrote or 
 expressed it. Volumes have been written, and many' 
 public discussions had over the question of whether 
 there is a soul in man that at death separates from 
 his body and continues to exist in a conscious state 
 after the body has been laid away in the grave. 
 Some claim that the Bible teaches one way, some the 
 other. All of these, however, who claim that the 
 soul does not exist separate from the body, are under 
 the necessity of retranslating the Bible in order to 
 prove their doctrine. Just as I told you about the 
 words "in" and "into." This book, however, which 
 was, according to Isaiah, to cause those who mur- 
 mured to learn doctrine, and those who erred in spirit 
 to come to understanding, gives no uncertain sound 
 in regard to this matter, but is as plain upon this 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 77 
 
 question as the others we have examined, and fortu- 
 nately we have not the originals, as thejr are called 
 by the learned men, when speaking of the Bible. If 
 we had, I presume men would say that the Book of 
 Mormon had not been translated correctly when it 
 happened not to meet their ideas of how things ought 
 to be. Harry, read verses 41 to 44, page 275: 
 
 Harry, — **Now concerning the state of the soul 
 between death and resurrection. Behold, it has been 
 made known unto me, by an angel, that the spirits of 
 all men, as soon as they are departed from this 
 mortal body; yea, the spirits of all men, whether they 
 be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave 
 them life. And then shall it come to pass the spirits 
 of those who are righteous, are received in a state 
 of happiness, which is called paradise; a state of 
 rest; a state of peace, where they shall rest from all 
 their troubles, and from all care, and sorrow, etc. 
 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the 
 wicked, yea, who are evil ; for behold, they have no 
 part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord : for behold 
 they choose evil works, rather than good : therefore 
 the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take 
 possession of their house; and these shall be cast out 
 into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and 
 wailing and gnashing of teeth ; and this because of 
 their iniquity; being led captive by the will of the 
 devil.'' 
 
 Papa, — Alma gives much more in explanation of 
 the resurrection, but it is not necessary for us to 
 read it all to-night. You will all no doubt become 
 interested in the book and will read further as to its 
 teaching. It is evident, however, that for plainness 
 
78 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 nothing can exceed the statements as made in this 
 book upon* any doctrine that it takes up. On page 
 475 instruction is given as to the ordaining of priests 
 and teachers and the words to be, or that were used 
 by the disciples of Christ. It also gives the manner 
 of administering the Lord's supper and the words 
 that should be used in the blessing of the bread 
 and wine. 
 
 Ernest. — But, papa, how about the doctrine of 
 polygamy? Do not the people in Utah believe in the 
 Book of Mormon? It seems that it has not settled 
 that point. 
 
 Papa. — Yes, my son, the Book of Mormon has 
 spoken just as plainly upon that point as upon any- 
 thing upon which we have consulted it so far, if not 
 more so, if that were possible. It has spoken so 
 plainly that the Utah people never undertake to 
 establish that doctrine by it. They try to make the 
 Bible sanction the doctrine, but never this book. I 
 am glad you mentioned it, however, and so we will 
 ask Harry to read a few extracts from the Book of 
 Mormon on this subject. You may read, Harry, 
 from page 102, verses 26 to 29; page 144, verses 1 to 
 3, and page 461, verse 41 : 
 
 Harry. — "For behold, thus saith the Lord, This 
 people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand 
 not the scriptures: for they seek to excuse them- 
 selves in committing whoredoms, because of the 
 things which were written concerning David, and 
 Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly 
 had many wives and concubines, which thing was 
 abominable before me, saith the Lord, wherefore, 
 thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 79 
 
 of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, 
 that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch 
 from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I, 
 the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do 
 like unto them of old. Wherefore, my brethren, hear 
 me, and hearken to the word of the Lord : For there 
 shall not any man among you have save it be one 
 wife: and concubines he shall have none: Fori, 
 the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women.'* 
 *'And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the 
 kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons : therefore Noah 
 began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in 
 the ways of his father. For behold, he did not keep 
 the commandments of God, but he did walk after the 
 desires of his own heart. And he had many wives 
 and concubines." "And it came to pass that 
 Riplakish did not do that which was right in the 
 sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and 
 concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders 
 which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax 
 them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did 
 build many spacious buildings." 
 
 Ernest, — But don't the Utah people profess to 
 believe in the Book of Mormon? If they do I can 
 not see how they can practice polygamy and call it 
 right. 
 
 Papa. — ^You stated it right, my son, when you said 
 they professed to believe in the Book of Mormon. 
 They do profess to believe in it, and that is all you 
 can say. They are like the people of whom Paul 
 wrote to Titus. I will let you read it, Ernest, in 
 Titus 1:12-16: 
 
 Ernest.— ^'One of themselves, even a prophet of 
 
80 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil 
 beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Where- 
 fore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in 
 the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables, and com- 
 mandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto 
 the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are 
 defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even 
 their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess 
 that they know God; but in works they deny him^ 
 being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every 
 good work reprobate." 
 
 Papa. — I know of no more fitting comparison than 
 this, to those who have violated this very plain Book 
 of Mormon precept. Using the language of Paul in 
 regard to the Cretians we can say, one of themselves, 
 even a prophet of their own (Brigham Young) said, 
 **We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the 
 world, the cunningest and most adroit thieves, and 
 any other shade of character that you can mention." 
 And, while they profess to know the Book of Mormon 
 and believe it, in works they deny it. We have now 
 found that what the Book of Mormon claims for itself 
 is true as we have before quoted, * 'These last records 
 [Book of Mormon] which thou hast seen shall estab- 
 lish the truth of the first [the Bible]." For the 
 prophecies in regard to Joseph's seed, his land, and 
 his stick or record, also the coming forth of truth 
 from the earth, and the sealed book of Isaiah, have 
 all been literally fulfilled in the coming forth of the 
 Book of Mormon, and as the time has passed that a 
 book could come forth in fulfillment of the prophecy, 
 and the Book of Mormon is the only book that ever 
 claimed to fulfill it, then a belief in the Book of Mor- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 81 
 
 mon establishes one's faith in those prophecies, and 
 a denial of the book and its claims makes these 
 prophecies failures in the minds of the ones denying, 
 and to others whom they may teach, you can plainly 
 see how it establishes the truth of the Bible. 
 
 Maude. — How do you mean, papa, that the time 
 has passed for the prophecies to be fulfilled and 
 hence they are failures unless we admit the Book of 
 Mormon is what it claims to be? 
 
 Papa. — Because the sealed book of Isaiah was to 
 oome forth just prior to the Holy Land being restored 
 to its former fruitfulness. As the former and latter 
 rains were restored in 1853, and by the restoration of 
 those rains the fruitfulness came to that land, and it 
 was made possible for the Jews to return to their 
 land again, we can safely say that if the Book of 
 Mormon is not the sealed book of Isaiah, then the 
 prophecy is a failure. 
 
 Ethel, — But, papa, there is another statement in 
 that place in the Book of Mormon you have just 
 referred to. I remember Harry read it in the begin- 
 ning of our talk, and that is that these second records 
 should teach the world that Christ was the Son of 
 God and that all men must look to him for salvation. 
 Do we have anything especially strong on that point? 
 
 Papa. — Yes, my dear, there is a great deal on that 
 question in the book, more than we have time to read 
 now, but I will ask Harry to read a few references, 
 You will no doubt remember that I told you that the 
 people who wrote the Book of Mormon came out from 
 the Holy Land about six hundred years before Christ, 
 so a great deal of their writing was done long before 
 Christ was born, but the prophecies that they made 
 
82 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 of his coming were much plainer than those we now 
 find in the Bible. These passages which I shall ask 
 Harry to read are prophecies of his coming. Read 
 from pages 84 and 85, verse 23, page 130, verse 71, 
 and page 344, verse 65 : 
 
 Harry. — *'And notwithstanding we believe in 
 Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look for- 
 ward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law 
 shall be fulfilled; for, for this end was the law 
 given; wherefore, the law hath become dead unto 
 us, and we are made alive in Christ, because of our 
 faith; yet we keep the law because of the command- 
 ments; and we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, 
 we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we 
 write according to our prophecies, that our children 
 may know to what source they may look for a remis- 
 sion of their sins." **And moreover, I say unto you, 
 that there shall be no other name given, nor any 
 other way nor means whereby salvation can come 
 unto the children of men, only in and through the 
 name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent." "And now 
 my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the 
 rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, 
 that ye must build your foundation, that when the 
 devil shall send forth his mighty winds; yea, his 
 shafts in the whirlwind; yea, when all his hail and 
 his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have 
 no power over you, to drag you down to the gulf of 
 misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon 
 which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a 
 foundation whereon if men build, they can not fall." 
 
 Papa. — This is a forcible statement in regard to 
 Christ being the Son of God and the only means of 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 83 
 
 salvation for men, but it is not a tithe of what might 
 be presented. In connection with this, when we 
 remember that Christ came to the people here and 
 delivered his message, as well as to the Jews in Jeru- 
 salem, we have the second witness for Christ and the 
 work that he was to do, and it is safe to conclude 
 that no one could believe in the Book of Mormon and 
 not believe in Christ as the Redeemer and Son of 
 God. So we see that to those who believe it, it does 
 all that it claims it will do. It is so plain on all the 
 points of the gospel that it becomes a very precious 
 book to those who accept it as the word of God. You 
 have often heard Joseph Smith called the **money- 
 digger," and it is frequently said by our enemies that 
 his sole object in bringing forth the Book of Mormon 
 and organizing the church was to get gain and to get 
 the hard-earned dollars of his people. But if he was 
 after money he could not have been a believer in the 
 book that we believe, and he claimed, he was an 
 instrument in the hands of God in bringing to light, 
 as a rule to govern God's people. Harry, just to 
 show what the book teaches along this line, I will ask 
 you to read from page 87, verses 58 to 61: 
 
 Harry, — '*He commandeth that there shall be no 
 priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men 
 preach and set themselves up for a light unto the 
 world, that they may get gain, and praise of the 
 world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion. 
 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; where- 
 fore, the Lord God hath given a commandment, that 
 all men should have charity, which charity is love. 
 And except they should have charity, they were 
 nothing: wherefore, if they should have charity, they 
 
84 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish. But 
 the laborer in Zion, shall labor for Zion; for if they 
 labor for money, they shall perish.'* 
 
 Papa. — It would, as we see, be out of the question 
 for a conscientious believer in the Book of Mormon 
 to preach for money, as a great many of the minis- 
 ters do to-day, and we would not find men as minis- 
 ters of the gospel going where they could get the 
 largest salary, but they would be seeking for the 
 places where they could do the most good for the 
 cause of Zion. 
 
 Harry. — Was Joseph Smith the only one who saw 
 the plates from which the Book of Mormon was 
 translated? 
 
 Papa. — No; there were eleven witnesses besides 
 Joseph Smith, and their testimony is given in the 
 front part of every copy of the book printed. You 
 can read it, Harry : 
 
 Harry. — *'The Testimony of Three Witnesses. — Be 
 it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and 
 people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, 
 through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord 
 Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this 
 record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and 
 also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the 
 people of Jared, who came from the tower of which 
 hath been spoken ; and we also know that they have 
 been translated by the gift and power of God, for his 
 voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know 
 of a surety, that the work is true. And we also testify 
 that we have seen the engravings which are upon 
 the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the 
 power of God, and not of man. And we declare with 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 86 
 
 words of soberness, that an angel of God came down 
 from heaven, and he brought and laid before our 
 eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the 
 engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the 
 grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, 
 that we beheld and bare record that these things are 
 true; and it is marvelous in our eyes, nevertheless, 
 the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should 
 bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the 
 commandments of God, we bear testimony of these 
 things. And we know that if we are faithful in 
 Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all 
 men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat 
 of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the 
 heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the 
 Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. 
 Oliver Cowdery. David Whitmer. Martin Harris. 
 And also the Testimony of Eight "Witnesses. — Be it 
 known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and 
 people, unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph 
 Smith, Jr., the translator of this work, has shown 
 unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which 
 have the appearance of gold; and as many of the 
 leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did 
 handle with our hands: and we also saw the engrav- 
 ings thereon, all of which has the appearance of 
 ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And 
 this we bear record with words of soberness, that the 
 said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and 
 hefted, and know of a surety, that the said Smith has 
 got the plates of which we have spoken. And we 
 give our names unto the world to witness unto the 
 world that which we have seen : and we lie not, God 
 
86 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 bearing witness of it. Christian Whitmer. Jacob 
 Whitmer. Peter "Whitmer, Jr. John Whitmer. 
 Hiram Page. Joseph Smith, Sen. Hyrum Smith. 
 Samuel H. Smith.'' 
 
 Papa. — These men always bore this same testi- 
 mony. They frequently declared their testimony to 
 be true when asked in regard to it, and some of them, 
 renewed their testimony when they were dying. 
 David "Whitmer was frequently interviewed by 
 reporters from Chicago, Kansas City, and other 
 papers, and always declared that he saw the plates 
 and that an angel showed them to him. On his 
 death-bed he asked the doctor who was attending 
 him if he was in his right mind, and when the doctor 
 answered that he was, he then renewed his testimony, 
 declaring, as he always had done, that the testimony 
 as recorded in the Book of Mormon was true, that it 
 might go down through all the ages as his dying 
 statement. 
 
 Ernest. — It seems to me that the Lord ought to 
 have let everybody see the plates, as that would 
 have been the best way to have shown that the book 
 was true. 
 
 Papa. — So, no doubt, thought the people in 
 Christ's time. After his resurrection he showed 
 himself to but few, and they were of his own dis- 
 ciples or members of his church. Many, no doubt, 
 thought that if they could only see him in his resur- 
 rected condition, and as Thomas, one of his apostles, 
 said, unless they could put their hands into his side 
 and feel the print of the nails, they would not believe. 
 But Jesus did not then satisfy the curiosity of the 
 people, but said while Thomas was blessed in belie v- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 87 
 
 ing when he had seen, yet more blessed would those 
 be who did not see and yet believed. As God then 
 let his work stand upon its merits, so in this age he 
 wants us to accept the Book of Mormon and all his 
 other works because of a careful investigation and 
 understanding of the merits of the matter presented. 
 God wants an intelligent service, and that can not be 
 had by the exhibition of a set of plates, the perform- 
 ance of a miracle, or in any other way, but by care- 
 ful examination of evidence that may bear on the 
 case. You can easily comprehend this fact, children, 
 that if I believed because I saw the plates of the 
 Book of Mormon or any other book, that would com- 
 mit me to a belief of its contents, no matter what the 
 contents might be, and in that way depending entirely 
 on outward evidence I might easily be led into believ- 
 ing something that was not true. But if I carefully 
 examine the internal evidence as well as the external, 
 then I can judge if the book teaches anything wrong. 
 Besides, it would be utterly impossible to have every- 
 body see the plates, and some would have to believe 
 the testimony of others. No one who cares for the 
 truth alone would hesitate to believe because they 
 had never seen the plates. The men who did gain a 
 view of the plates became believers before they ever 
 saw them. In fact, their right or privilege to view 
 them was given them because of their faith, not 
 because it was necessary to make them believe. 
 There is another remarkable statement made in the 
 Book of Mormon. You may call it a prophecy, per- 
 haps. It is in regard to our government's attitude 
 towards the Indians. You know the Indians are 
 the remnant of these people that the Book of Mor- 
 
88 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 mon tells about. Harry, you may read verse 15 on 
 page 67: 
 
 Harry, — ** Wherefore, my beloved brethren, thus 
 saith our God: I will afflict thy seed by the hand of 
 the Gentiles, nevertheless, I will soften the hearts of 
 the Gentiles, that they shall be like unto a father to 
 them." 
 
 Papa.— This is really a prophecy of the future of 
 the people who once inhabited this country. The 
 Indians are the descendants, or the "seed" spoken of 
 here. The statement is that after the Gentiles have 
 afflicted them for a certain period of time, then they 
 shall have their hearts softened towards them and 
 they will become a **father to them." I have taken 
 the trouble recently to look up the matter of Indian 
 education, which would be a part of a father's duty 
 toward a child. By consulting two volumes on this 
 question, one being the government reports, I have 
 found that "all that had been accomplished at the 
 beginning of this century was to show that the aver- 
 age Indian was not lacking in ability or skill." Up 
 to the time of the coming forth of the Book of Mor- 
 mon the government of the United States had not 
 taken any active interest in the education of the 
 Indian. A few schools had been established by 
 individuals and by different churches, and by 
 repeated solicitations of these individuals and 
 churches, the Government finally in 1819 made an 
 appropriation of $10,000 for the benefit of this work. 
 In 1833, three years after the Book of Mormon was 
 published, what is called the "Indian Bureau" was 
 established as a part of the Government, and the 
 Indians began to be cared for by gathering them 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 89 
 
 upon reservations. But *'The Government took no 
 active interest in the education of the Indian until 
 1873. In 1877 it made an appropriation of $20,000; 
 in 1880, $75,000; in 1885, $992,800; in 1890, $1,364,568; 
 in 1895, $2,060,695; in 1899, $2,638,390— for Indian 
 Education." — International Education Series, vol. 2, 
 p. 255, and Education in the United States, vol. 2, 
 pp. 943, 944. You may read from my scrap-book, 
 Maude, a clipping from the Philadelphia Item^ 1897, 
 in regard to Indian Education : 
 
 Maude, — **The annual report of the Executive 
 Committee of the Indian Rights Association, which 
 has just been issued by Secretary Herbert Welch, 
 says: 'Indian education to-day is on a better basis 
 than ever before. There are two hundred and thirty- 
 four schools. In 1896 there were 17,789 pupils, in 
 1897, 18,670. The enrollment of the contract schools 
 showed in 1896, 4,439 pupils, and 3,124 in 1897, 
 making a decline of 1,315. The contract schools 
 conducted by the religious bodies are gradually 
 being superseded by those of the Government. The 
 money granted by government last year amounted to 
 $257,928, of which $2,760 was given to two Presby- 
 terian schools and $156,760 to Roman Catholic 
 schools. The appropriations for Indian schools in 
 1896 were $2,517,265, while in 1897 they were $2,631,- 
 771.35, an increase of $114,506.35. The treaty pro- 
 visions for schools are about $600,000, making a total 
 of $3,231,771.35.'" 
 
 Papa, — I have here a lecture delivered by Joseph 
 Cook in 1877 or 1878. In a prelude to the lecture he 
 gives us some statistics in regard to the Indian which 
 will probably be interesting and instructive. Ethel, 
 
90 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 you may read from pages 4 to 8 of this volume of 
 lectures on heredity. 
 
 Ethel, — "Do you say that after all, the Indian is 
 dying out? The President of the United States 
 reminds us that the American savage is not on the 
 verge of evanescence. The statistics that I have 
 before me, from official sources, assert that in 1864 
 the number of schools among the Indians was only 
 89, and in 1873 it was 2,600. In 1864 the number of 
 scholars among the Indians in the United States was 
 261. Ten years later it was 9,000. In 1864 the num- 
 ber of acres farmed by the Indians was only 1,800; in 
 1873 it was 297,000. In 1864 the number of bushels 
 of wheat raised by the Indians in the United States 
 was 44,000; ten years later, 288,000. The value of 
 their animals in 1864 was $4,000,000; in 1873 it was 
 $8,900,000. The truth is, that the closest observers 
 understand very well that the poor Indian, who has 
 been on the point of vanishing, has made up his mind 
 not to vanish! If a just policy could prevail, if the 
 advice given by the honored executive of this nation 
 to the Indian chiefs a few months ago at the White 
 House could be followed, we would find the figures 
 astounding us ten years hence more than they do 
 now, by indicating an increase of more than ninety 
 per cent in the number of acres farmed by a people 
 who once were savages or half-breeds. There is a 
 popular misapprehension on the point of the decadence 
 of the Indian race. It is true that they are unwilling 
 to cultivate the land; it is certain that they are 
 haughty at the hoe-handle; but when we walk among 
 their wigwams, and contrast what we see there to-day 
 with their condition ten years ago, a few marvelous 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 91 
 
 facts must fix our attention. Let us pace to and fro 
 in this encampment far away on the Red Lake agency 
 in Minnesota. The Indians at the agency number 
 1,100 and the reservation contains 3,000,000 acres of 
 land. What have these Indians done in a year? I 
 am reciting an official report; and I find that these 
 1,100 Indians, or, putting out the very young and the 
 very aged, say about 1,000 persons that can handle 
 an agricultural implement, have raised 7,000 bushels 
 of corn, an excess of 1,000 bushels over any preced- 
 ing year; 2,000 bushels of potatoes, and 430 bushels 
 of other vegetables; have cut 250 tons of hay; made 
 5,000 pounds of maple-sugar — I wish I were there! — 
 gathered 600 bushels of berries; caught 750 pounds 
 of fish, all of them as beautiful as any ever taken in 
 the Adirondacks; and have captured $14,000 worth 
 of furs, and made 1,000 yards of matting. One thou- 
 sand people, 7,000 bushels of corn; that is seven 
 bushels apiece; $14,000 worth of furs; fourteen dol- 
 lars the result of the trapping of each man. It is 
 evident that they have done better at trapping than at 
 most other things; but have you farmers on these 
 desolate stretches and pine barrens between Cape 
 Cod and Mount Wachusett done better with your 
 agricultural products? Have many in the fastness of 
 the Mohawk Valley, or the Mississippi, done better? 
 No doubt this is a favorable specimen of the action of 
 the Indians on a reservation. But we transfer this 
 audience to the Lake Superior agency in Wisconsin. 
 We find the Indians extremely anxious to have their 
 reservation improved. They express themselves as 
 willing to do without clothing and blankets, if they 
 can have a schoolhouse and teacher. One of them 
 
92 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 has built a house himself, and furnished it as white 
 men's houses are furnished. He has a bedstead, 
 cups and saucers, plates, knives, forks, and spoons, 
 and a No. 8 cookstove. What does this indicate? 
 Should not an abundance of encouragement be given 
 to such enthusiasm? There is undoubtedly a change 
 when we compare the present time with ten years 
 ago. HeK© is an officer whose language we shall do 
 well to weigh verbatim: *Two things were notice- 
 able: first, the cleanly appearance of all the Indians. 
 I saw no sights from which to turn with disgust, as 
 upon former visits; and I could not but remark this 
 change. Three years ago, when I first visited these 
 bands, I found them dirty, ragged, and filthy, lazy 
 and ignorant, in a degree beyond anything I had 
 ever imagined. Their blankets, clothing, and hair 
 were perfectly alive with vermin ; and they had the 
 woodlands covered with birch -bark wigwams. To-day 
 I found them generally dressed in civilized costumes, 
 their hair combed, and their faces and clean, white 
 shirts showing that some one has taught them the 
 use of soap and water.' First chapter of the gospel. 
 *The absence of the birch-bark wigwam assures me 
 that many have taken advantage of the teachings of 
 Mr. and Mrs. Holt, and built houses in which to live 
 and entertain their friends.' But Mr. and Mrs. Holt 
 wished to institute a manual-labor boarding-school, 
 and what was their only trouble? There was nothing 
 in their pockets, because you put nothing there. 
 •They desired to establish a district school on the 
 agency. The little building they possessed they had 
 to close early in June, because of the lack of funds. 
 But all through the Indian reservations we find the 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 93 
 
 desire for little churches and little schools, especially 
 manual-labor boarding-schools, increasing. A sig- 
 nificant Indian scene lately occurred at Washington. 
 * Build us a big cabin for our children, and teach our 
 young people as you do your own,' said a large group 
 of not wholly barbaric chiefs to President Hayes at 
 the White House. *Give us wagons with four wheels. 
 Send us priests,' was their phrase; *and we, little by 
 little, will learn to use the land, now that our hunting- 
 grounds are gone.' In order to impress their sin- 
 cerity upon the Executive end this nation, they went 
 away, and meditated two days upon the answer they 
 should make to the advice of the President, and 
 finally threw off their savage robes, — the costume 
 which indicates, with the Indian, the victories he has 
 obtained, a kind of heraldry, of which, of course, 
 he is as proud as ever noblemen were of theirs in 
 the Old World, — and then these poor children 
 of the wilderness returned to the White House in 
 civilized costume, and before the gaze of the nation, 
 made speeches through the mouths of their shrewdest 
 men, clamorous for wagons, schoolhouses, and 
 churches." 
 
 Papa. — These sums that have been set apart and 
 used by the Government for the education of the 
 Indian are so large that the mind can hardly grasp 
 them. But the statement made in the Book of Mor- 
 mon is quite remarkable in the light of these facts 
 and statistics. And the only conclusion that we can 
 reasonably come to is that the book is all that it 
 claims to be, the word of God and not of man, and 
 that God has had a special watchcare over it, not 
 only in its preservation and bringing forth, but in 
 
94 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 the writing of it; for look at it from whatever stand- 
 point we may, from the prophecies in regard to it in 
 the Bible, of its moral teachings and from its own 
 prophecies, it stands the test of examination, and we 
 can but agree with the three witnesses that it is 
 "marvelous in our eyes," and with Isaiah, it is **a 
 marvelous work and a wonder." There is still, how- 
 ever, another branch of evidences that we have not 
 considered in our conservation to-night, and which 
 we will not have time to talk about now, but will try 
 to take up some other time. But as it is getting 
 late, we will close this chat by asking Harry to read 
 from the Book of Mormon, pages 483 and 484, verses 
 2, 3, and 4, a test of the truthfulness of the book and 
 all other things that is within the reach of all : 
 
 Harry. — **And I seal up these records, after I have 
 spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. 
 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read 
 these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should 
 read them, that ye would remember how merciful the 
 Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the 
 creation of Adam, even down until the time that ye 
 shall receive these things, and ponder it in your 
 hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I 
 would exhort you that ye would ask God, the eternal 
 Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not 
 true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with 
 real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest 
 the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy 
 Ghost ; and by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may 
 know the truth of all things." 
 
 Papa. — This statement has a ring of genuineness 
 about it that will almost compel a belief in the book, 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 95 
 
 for what impostor would dare to submit his case to 
 God in prayer? May God bless you, my dear chil- 
 dren, in your search for his eternal truth. I am 
 much pleased with your manifestation of interest, 
 and will promise you that you will always find me 
 ready to help you in every way I can. 
 
 Ernest. — Before you say good-night, papa, I want 
 to ask you one more question if you will take the 
 time to answer. Is there any evidence that the 
 ancient Jews, or other people, wrote upon plates of 
 metal as the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of 
 Mormon, and did they practice hiding them in the 
 earth when they wanted to preserve them? 
 
 Papa. — Yes, my son, we have the evidence here 
 in this Bible Dictionary written by Richard Wat- 
 son, from which you read a while ago. We have 
 evidence from other sources also, but will only ask 
 you to read from this book. In his article on * 'Writ- 
 ing,*' pages 971 and 972, you will find something 
 about the different kind of materials they used. 
 
 Ernest, — "The materials and instruments of writ- 
 ing were: 1. The leaves of trees. 2. The bark of 
 trees, from which in process of time, a sort of paper 
 was manufactured. 3. A table of wood. In the 
 east, these tables were not covered with wax as they 
 were in the west; or very rarely so. 4. Linen was 
 first used for the object in question in Rome. Linen 
 books are mentioned by Livy. Cotton cloth, also, 
 which was used for the bandages of Egyptian mum- 
 mies, and inscribed with hieroglyphics, was one of 
 the materials for writing upon. 5. The paper made 
 from the reed papyrus, which as Pliny has shown, 
 was used before the Trojan War. 6. The skins of 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 various animals ; but they were poorly prepared for 
 the purpose^ until some improved methods of manu- 
 facture were invented at Pergamus, during the reign 
 of Enmenes, about before Christ 300. Hence the 
 skins of animals, prepared for writing, are called in 
 Latin Pergamena, in English parchment to this day, 
 from the city Pergamus. 7. Tables of lead. 8. 
 Tables of brass. Of all the materials, brass was con- 
 sidered the most durable, and was employed for 
 those inscriptions designed to last the longest. . . . 
 As to the instruments used in writing, when it was 
 necessary to write upon hard materials, as tables of 
 stone or brass, the style was made of iron, and some- 
 times tipped with diamond." 
 
 Po.pa, — Now you may turn to page 173, article 
 "Book,** and see what this author says of the man- 
 ner of constructing their books in those days. 
 
 Ernest, — "Those books, which were inscribed on 
 tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected 
 together hy rings at the hack, through which a rod 
 was passed to carry them by." 
 
 Papa. — This agrees with the description given of 
 the plates of the Book of Mormon and how they were 
 bound together by three rings at the back. Now 
 you may read from same article, page 171, of how 
 they used to bury their records. 
 
 Ernest. — "The materials generally used by the 
 ancients for their books were liable to be easily 
 destroyed by the damp, when hidden in the earth; 
 and in times of war, devastation, and rapacity, it was 
 necessary to bury in the earth whatever they wished 
 to preserve from the attacks of fraud and violence. 
 With this view, Jeremiah ordered the writings, which 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 97 
 
 he delivered to Baruch, to be put in an earthen 
 vessel. (See Jeremiah 32.) In the same manner 
 the ancient Egyptians made use of earthen urns, or 
 pots, of a proper shape for containing whatever they 
 wanted to inter in the earth, and which without such 
 care would have been soon destroyed. We need not 
 wonder then that the Prophet Jeremiah should think 
 it necessary to inclose those writings in an earthen 
 pot, which were to be buried in Judea, in some place 
 where they might be found without much difficulty 
 on the return of the Jews from captivity. 
 
 Papa. — This is the evidence and you can see that 
 it all fits the Book of Mormon story very nicely and 
 is surely very strong evidence in its favor. Are you 
 now ready to say good-night, to meet some future 
 time? 
 
 All. — Yes; good-night, papa, and thank you. We 
 shall look forward to oui' next talk with a great deal 
 of eagerness. 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKb 
 
 NUMBER TWO. 
 
 ETHEL. — We have come for another talk, papa. 
 We have been very much interested in the talk 
 we had the other evening, and we have been 
 reading the Book of Mormon and want more infor- 
 mation. When we were talking about the Bible 
 evidences, you said there were other evidences but 
 you did not have time, then, to give them to us. 
 That is what has brought us here to-night. We want 
 to know what the evidences are, and if you have 
 time, papa, we would like to have another long talk 
 about it. 
 
 Papa, — I assure you, my dears, that if I were ever 
 80 busy I would take time to talk to you about this 
 matter, as nothing can give me greater pleasure than 
 to see you so deeply interested in this subject. Do 
 you remember the book I brought home a few weeks 
 ago telling about the discoveries in Bible lands, and 
 how these discoveries proved the history given in the 
 Bible? 
 
 Ernest, — Yes, papa, we were very much inter- 
 ested in it at the time and read it quite carefully. It 
 told about the cities which were built in Bible times 
 and how men had dug in the places where the Bible 
 had said that these cities were built, and had found 
 the ruins, and in some places they had found old 
 records which told about things just as the Bible 
 does. 
 
 Papa. — ^You say, Ethel, that you have been read- 
 ing the Book of Mormon. Did you read anything in 
 it about cities being built? 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 99 
 
 Ethel* — ^Yes, we read about a great many cities 
 being built, and temples and other large buildings, 
 and Maude spoke about it, and we wondered if any 
 one had ever tried to find any of these cities that it 
 gpeaks of. 
 
 Papa. — You know, children, that compared with 
 the number who believe in the Bible, the believers in 
 the Book of Mormon are very few, and those who do 
 believe in it are not rich enough to pay the expenses 
 of searching for these old ruins and cities that the 
 Book of Mormon speaks of, and the rich men would 
 not look for evidence to prove true the book in which 
 they did not believe. Some travelers have, however, 
 accidentally come across some ruins in different parts 
 of the country and told about them, and the result 
 was that quite a number of men, who knew nothing 
 about the Bookof Mormon, began to be interested in 
 them and went down to Central and South America 
 and explored those places the travelers had told 
 about, and in examining these ruins they came across 
 a great many others. The Government, too, began 
 to take an interest and sent several parties to explore 
 the ruins already discovered and to look for others. 
 The United States established a department which 
 they called the Bureau of Ethnology. This depart- 
 ment was composed of men who were paid by the 
 Government to spend all their time studying the old 
 ruins, mounds, and so forth, that are found all over 
 this country. These large books which you see here 
 in my library are the reports of this Bureau of 
 Ethnology. You children have been quite interested 
 in looking at the illustrations of the many different 
 things found. This is the evidence that I spoke 
 
IGO BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 about in our other talk and which I told you I would 
 talk about at some other time. As I said before, we 
 are all poor so far as this world's goods are con- 
 cerned, so we could not explore these ruins ourselves 
 and search for this evidence, so we believe that God 
 has moved upon other men and the Government to do 
 this for us, and the evidence that they have found is 
 quite wonderful, as we will discover before we get 
 through with this talk. It is much better, too, that 
 all of these discoveries should be made by those who 
 are not believers in the Book of Mormon, as we are 
 able to prove our position by witnesses who are not 
 interested. Maude, you may tell us what we learned 
 from our other conversation about this book in 
 regard to the number of colonies that came to this 
 country, and when they came. 
 
 Maude. — There were three colonies. One came at 
 the time of the building of the Tower of Babel and 
 the confusion of languages. The second colony 
 came about six hundred years before Christ, or the 
 beginning of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, 
 and the last one came at the close of the reign of 
 Zedekiah, and one of his sons came with them. 
 
 Papa. — I see you have learned your lesson well. 
 As in the former talk we showed that the prophecies 
 of the Bible plainly foretold the coming of each of 
 these colonies, so now we will try to show from the 
 ruins of cities and other things which have been 
 found that there were three different colonies came 
 here and that the story as given in the Book of Mor- 
 mon is correct. As before, I will let you children do 
 the reading. Harry may take the Book of Mormon 
 and I will call on the rest of you to read from several 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 101 
 
 different books as I shall need them. "We began in 
 our other talk with the first colony, so we will take 
 that first this time. Harry, you may read from the 
 book of Ether, chapter 1, verses 5 to 18. Begin with 
 the name Jared in the latter part of verse 5, as the 
 other part of the verse gives only their genealogy: 
 
 Harry. — * 'Jared came forth with his brother and 
 their families, with some others and their families, 
 from the great tower, at the time the Lord con- 
 founded the language of the people, and swear in 
 his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the 
 face of the earth; and according to the word of the 
 Lord the people were scattered. And the brother of 
 Jared being a large and mighty man, and being a 
 man highly favored of the Lord; for Jared his 
 brother said unto him. Cry unto the Lord, that he 
 will not confound us that we may not understand our 
 words. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared 
 did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion 
 upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the lan- 
 guage of Jared ; and Jared and his brother were not 
 confounded. Then Jared said unto his brother. Cry 
 again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn 
 away his anger from them who are our friends, that 
 he confound not their language. And it came to 
 pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, 
 and the Lord had compassion upon their friends, and 
 their families, also, and they were not confounded. 
 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his 
 brother, saying, Go and inquire of the Lord whether 
 he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive 
 us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. 
 And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth 
 
102 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 into a land that is choice above all the earth. And if 
 it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may 
 receive it for our inheritance. And it came to pass 
 that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord 
 according to that which had been spoken by the 
 mouth of Jared. And it came to pass that the Lord 
 did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion 
 upon him, and said unto him, Go to and gather 
 together thy flocks, both male and female, of every 
 kind; and also the seed of the earth of every kind, 
 and thy families ; and also Jared thy brother and his 
 family; and also thy friends and their families, and 
 the friends of Jared and their families. And when 
 thou hast done this, thou shalt go at the head of 
 them down into the valley, which is northward. And 
 there will I meet thee, and will go before thee into a 
 land which is choice above all the land of the earth. 
 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up 
 unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brothei% 
 and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. 
 And there shall be none greater than the nation 
 which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all 
 the face of the earth.'* 
 
 Papa. — In verse 25 it tells how they built barges 
 and crossed many waters; then when they had trav- 
 eled a long time they came to what they called the 
 "great sea which divideth the lands." They camped 
 here four years and then were commanded to build 
 barges after the manner that they had hitherto built. 
 They built eight barges, which were sufficient to 
 carry them and all they had with them across the 
 great sea, and they landed finally, as nearly as can 
 be determined by the doscription of the land as given 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 103 
 
 in the Book of Mormon, on the shores of Yucatan. 
 The Book of Mormon does not say how many fami- 
 lies there were. It tells of Jared and his brother's 
 families, and then says that their friends consisted of 
 "about twenty and two souls." (Ether 3 : 14-16.) 
 Traditions found among the natives of Mexico and 
 Yucatan bear a very close resemblance to this narra- 
 tive as given in the Book of Mormon. Ernest, you 
 may read from this book called North Americans of 
 Antiquity, written by a man named John T. Short 
 and published by Harper Brothers, of New York. 
 He refers to this tradition in three different places, on 
 pages 138, 204, and 238. You may read from each of 
 these pages what you will find marked: 
 
 Ernest, — **He cites their creation and flood 
 myths, their account of the building of the Tower of 
 Babel and the confusion of tongues, their dispersion 
 upon the face of the earth, and the passage of seven 
 families to the new world ... by means of balsas, 
 with which they crossed rivers and arms of the sea 
 which they encountered in their journey." — Page 138. 
 
 Papa, — This agrees with the story of the Book of 
 Mormon. It mentions the number of families as 
 seven, which would agree very well with the Book of 
 Mormon statement. There would be five families 
 aside from Jared and his brother which would be, 
 counting the twenty-two souls, four each for three 
 families and five for two. This would be a fair 
 average, especially as they seemed to be young from 
 the account that they had become numerous by 
 increase before they came to the promised land. The 
 next extract that I shall ask Ernest to read proves 
 three points in the Book of Mormon story : 1. That 
 
104 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 these Jaredites were the first inhabitants of this land; 
 2. That they became a mighty nation; 3. That they 
 came out from the Tower of Babel. You may begin 
 on page 203, Ernest: 
 
 Ernest, — "The most ancient civilization on this 
 continent, judging from the combined testimony of 
 tradition, records, and architectural remains, was 
 that which grew up under the favorable climate and 
 geographical surroundings which the Central Ameri- 
 can region southwest of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec 
 afforded. The great Maya family with its numerous 
 branches, each in time developing its own dialect if 
 not its own peculiar language, at an early date fixed 
 itself in the fertile valley of the river Usumasinta, 
 and produced a civilization which was old and ripe 
 when the Toltecs came in contact with it. Here in 
 this picturesque valley region in Tabasco and Chia- 
 pas we may look for the cradle of American civiliza- 
 tion. Under the shadow of the magnificent and 
 mysterious ruins of Palenque [Pah-len'-kay] a peo- 
 ple grew to power who spread into Guatemala and 
 Honduras, northward toward Anahuao and south- 
 ward into Yucatan, and for a period of probably 
 twenty-five centuries exercised a sway which, at one 
 time, excited the envy and fear of its neighbors. We 
 are fully aware of the uncertainty which attaches 
 itself to tradition in general, and of the caution with 
 which it should be accepted in treating of the foun- 
 dations of history; but still, with reference to the 
 origin and growth of old world nations, nothing bet- 
 ter offers itself in many instances than suspicious 
 legends. The histories of the Egyptians, the Tro- 
 jans, the Greeks, and of even ancient Rome rests od 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 105 
 
 no surer footing. It is certain that while the leg- 
 endary history of any nation may be confused, exag- 
 gerated, and besides full of breaks, still there are 
 some main and fundamental facts out of which it has 
 grown, and this we think is especially true of the 
 new world traditions. Clavigero says: *The Chia- 
 panese have been the first peoplers of the new world, 
 if we give credit to their traditions. They say that 
 Votan, the grandson of that respectable old man who 
 built the great ark to save himself and family from 
 the deluge, and one of those who undertook the 
 building of that lofty edifice which was to reach up 
 to heaven, went by express command of the Lord to 
 people that land. ' They say also that the first people 
 came from the quarter of the north, and that when 
 they arrived at Soconusco, they separated, some 
 going to inhabit the country of Nicaragua and others 
 remaining in Chiapas.' The tradition of Votan, the 
 founder of the Maya culture, though somewhat 
 warped, probably by having passed through priestly 
 hands, is nevertheless one of the most valuable 
 pieces of information which we have concerning the 
 ancient Americans. Without it our knowledge of 
 the origin of the Mayas would be a hopeless blank, 
 and the ruins of Palenque [Pah-len'-kay] would be 
 more a mystery than ever. According to this tradi- 
 tion, Votan came from the East, from Valum Chivim, 
 by the way of Valum Votan, from across the sea, by 
 divine command, to apportion the land of the new 
 continent to seven families which he brought with 
 him."— Pages 203, 204. 
 
 Papa. — There is very little discrepancy between 
 this tradition and the Book of Mormon account. Mr. 
 
106 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Short says they probably flourished as a mighty 
 nation for a period of '*twenty-five centuries." But 
 this is simply a probability. He has no dates to 
 figure from, but the Book of Mormon says it was 
 from the confusion of tongues at Babel until the last 
 year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah. 
 According to Usher, the building of the Tower of 
 Babel and confusion of tongues occurred twenty- 
 two hundred and forty -seven years before Christ, 
 and Zedekiah was taken captive in the year 580 B. c. 
 This would make the time of this people's existence 
 sixteen hundred and sixty- seven years. There is 
 another system of reckoning the years that makes it 
 one hundred and twenty-four years longer, or seven- 
 teen hundred and ninety-one years. This is ample 
 time for all that is claimed to have occurred. But 
 allowing, as Mr. Short says, for changes made by 
 time and by being handed down 'from one generation 
 to another, it is remarkable how closely the two 
 accounts agree. "We have one more quotation from 
 this remarkable tradition that establishes another 
 statement made in the Book of Mormon and that is 
 that these people, Jared, his brother, their families 
 and their friends and their families, were allowed to 
 retain the same language. You may read now, 
 Ernest, from page 238: 
 
 Ernest. — **Presently their languages were con- 
 fused; and not able to understand each other, they 
 went to different parts of the earth. The Toltec..% 
 consisting of seven friends with their wives, who 
 understood the same language, came to these parts, 
 having first passed great land and seas, having lived 
 in caves, and having endured great hardships in 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 107 
 
 order to reach this land, which they found good and 
 fertile for their habitation." 
 
 Papa, — This certainly looks as though it would be 
 sufficient to prove the Book of Mormon true, as it 
 would be very improbable that any one could by 
 accident 'get the story so nearly like these traditions, 
 and we must remember that very little was known of 
 the Toltecs when the Book of Mormon was first pub- 
 lished. Mr. Short's book was not published until 
 1879, while the Book of Mormon was published in 
 
 Maude, — But, papa, didn't we learn in our other 
 talk that all of these people who came out from the 
 Tower of Babel were killed? If so, then how could 
 these people have that tradition that we read about 
 in Mr. Short's book? 
 
 Papa. — The question is a natural one, my dear, 
 and I am glad to note that you are noticing all these 
 points, and anything you do not understand I want 
 you to question me about. I will ask Harry to read 
 from the book of Omni, chapter 1, verses 28 to 32: 
 
 Harry, — **And it came to pass in the days of 
 Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him, 
 with engravings on it; and he did interpret the 
 engravings, by the gift and power of God. And 
 they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the 
 slain of his people. And Coriantumr was dis- 
 covered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt 
 with them for the space of nine moons. It also 
 spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his 
 first parents came out from the tower, at the time the 
 Lord confounded the language of the people; and 
 the severity of the Lord fell upon them, according to 
 
108 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay 
 scattered in the land northward." 
 
 Papa, — We have already read what the book oi 
 Ether says about this matter. But I have asked 
 Harry to read this to show you that the origin of this 
 people who first came here was well known to those 
 who succeeded them, and it would be only natural 
 that after hundreds of years had passed away that, 
 having no written history, they would hand it down 
 as their own history. There are some things in the 
 tradition that seem to indicate that this was the case, 
 as in one place the tradition says they were pre- 
 ceded by two other persons. Thus far, then, we see 
 that the Book of Mormon story is sustained by these 
 traditions of the natives. Now we will take up the 
 second colony and see if we can as successfully 
 establish their coming here. The story of their com- 
 ing would be too long to read, so I will ask Ethel to 
 tell us about it and see how well she remembers the 
 story : 
 
 Ethel. — The second colony was composed of Lehi 
 and his family, consisting of four sons named Laman, 
 Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi, and their sisters, how 
 many it does not say, and two boys born to them 
 after they left Jerusalem and named Jacob and 
 Joseph; Ishmael and his family; and Zoram, the 
 servant of Laban. They went down to the borders 
 of the Red Sea and traveled along its shores until 
 they had traveled quite a distance in a "south south- 
 east" direction, and after traveling eight years in the 
 wilderness they built a ship and crossed the Pacific 
 Ocean and landed on the west coast of South 
 America, about the thirtieth degree of south latitude. 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 108 
 
 Soon after landing Lehi died, and Nephi, the young- 
 est of the four older brothers, was made the leader. 
 Soon after this the two older brothers rebelled and 
 persecuted the younger brothers so much that Nephi 
 took his two younger brothers and sisters, also Sam, 
 and Zoram and family, and went northward where he 
 could live in peace. By this separation two peoples 
 were formed, one called Nephites, the other Laman- 
 ites. The Nephites were civihzed; the Lamanites, 
 because they rejected God's word, became a dark- 
 skinned and uncivilized people, and got their living 
 by hunting and fishing, also by plundering and steal- 
 ing from the Nephites. The Nephites, however, 
 prospered until they, too, began to reject the word of 
 God, then they were overcome and destroyed by the 
 Lamanites in a series of battles. 
 
 Papa, — You have very nicely told the story, but 
 the points that I want to especially impress on your 
 minds are that they were principally led by four 
 brothers, Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi, and that 
 the younger one, Nephi, was chosen to lead them. 
 But in order to make the matter plain, I will let 
 Harry read a few verses from the Book of Mormon. 
 Read from 2 Nephi, chapter 4, verses 23 to 26 : 
 
 Harry, — **And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did 
 cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with 
 their hands. And it came to pass that they would 
 that I should be their king. But I, Nephi, was desir- 
 ous that they should have no king; nevertheless, I 
 did for them according to that which was in my 
 power. And behold, the words of the Lord had been 
 fulfilled unto my brethren, which he spake concern- 
 mg them, that I should be their ruler and teacher; 
 
no BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 wherefore, I had been their ruler and their teacher, 
 according to the commandments of the Lord, until 
 the time they sought to take away my life.'* 
 
 Papa. — Now you may turn to Jacob, chapter 1, 
 verses 8 to 10, which tells of the end of Nephi's reign 
 and what followed : 
 
 Harry. — **Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw 
 that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a 
 man to be a king and ruler over his people now, 
 according to the reigns of the kings. The people 
 having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a 
 great protector for them, having wielded the sword 
 of Laban in their defense, and having labored in all 
 his days for their welfare; wherefore, the people 
 were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. 
 And whoso should reign in his stead, were called by 
 the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, etc., accord- 
 ing to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were 
 called by the people, let them be of whatever name 
 they would." 
 
 Papa. — We will now see what the traditions of the 
 early settlement of this region say about it. Maude, 
 you may read from this book called Ancient America, 
 by J. D. Baldwin, page 264. Read what he says of a 
 theory advanced by a writer called Montesinos : 
 
 Maude. — *'He discards the wonder stories told of 
 Manco-Capac and Mama Oello, and gives the 
 Peruvian nation a beginning which is, at least, 
 not incredible. It was originated, he says, by a 
 people led by four brothers, who settled in the Val- 
 ley of Cuzco [Koos'-ko], and developed civilization 
 there in a very human way. The youngest of these 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 111 
 
 brothers assumed supreme authority, and became 
 the first of a long line of sovereigns." 
 
 Papa. — This is not quite so conclusive as the other 
 tradition, but it can have but one application, and 
 that is that it confirms the Book of Mormon state- 
 ment in regard to the four brothers, Laman, Lemuel, 
 Sam, and Nephi, for what the tradition says is 
 exactly what these four brothers did do. We do not 
 find anything else about this second colony coming 
 other than what is common to all of the colonies, so 
 we will pass on to the third colony. Maude, can you 
 tell us of any particular person that is mentioned as 
 coming with this third party, and where we may find 
 the information? 
 
 Maude. — Yes, papa, his name was Mulok and he 
 was one of the sons of Zedekiah, king of Judah. "We 
 read about him in Helaman, chapter 2, verse 106, 
 also in chapter 3, verses 45 and 46. They landed on 
 the west coast of Central America just about the time 
 that the Jaredites were destroyed; in fact, they came 
 in time to see Coriantumr, and he lived with them 
 nine months or moons. They settled Central America 
 and went south across the isthmus and settled the 
 northern part of South America, where they were 
 finally joined by the Nephites, and they became one 
 nation or people. 
 
 Papa. — That is correct, my dear. Now the only 
 thing we can find that confirms this story of the Book 
 of Mormon aside from that which is common to the 
 others is that Mr. Short in his book, chapter 9, page 
 436, says that they have found in this country, in 
 which it is claimed Mulok landed and settled, the 
 
112 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 word Muluc, and that it is the name of one of their 
 days, and that it means * 'reunion." This is very 
 strong evidence, however, when we take into con- 
 sideration the fact that these two peoples, the 
 Nephites and the people of Mulok, were united 
 together and became known as Nephites, and what 
 would be more natural than that they should name 
 one of their days Mulok, or reunion, to commemorate 
 that event which was of so much importance to them 
 and which caused them so much rejoicing. They 
 also named one of their periods or divisions of years 
 Muluc. You will notice that the name is not spelled 
 just as it is in the Book of Mormon, but the sound is 
 the same. We will now take those evidences which 
 relate to all of these different colonies. This evidence 
 is not found in tradition, but in examining the ruins 
 of the different cities. Maude, you may read from 
 Baldwin's Ancient America, pages 155 and 156: 
 
 Maude. — **It is a point of no little interest that 
 these old constructions belong to different periods in 
 the past, and represent somewhat different phases of 
 civilization. Uxmal, which is supposed to have been 
 partly inhabited when the Spaniards arrived in the 
 country, is plainly much more modern than Copan or 
 Palenque. This is easily traced in the ruins. Its 
 edifices were finished in a different style, and show 
 fewer inscriptions. Round pillars, somewhat in the 
 Doric style, are found at Uxmal, but none like the 
 square, richly carved pillars, bearing inscriptions, 
 discovered in some of the other ruins. Copan and 
 Palenque, and even Kabah, in Yucatan, may have 
 been very old cities, if not already old ruins, when 
 Uxmal was built. Accepting the reports of explorers 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 113 
 
 as correct, there is evidence in the ruins that Quirigua 
 [Kee-ree-goo'-ah] is older than Copan, and that 
 Copan is older than Palenque. The old monuments 
 in Yucatan represent several distinct epochs in the 
 ancient history of that peninsula. Some of them are 
 kindred to those hidden in the great forest, and 
 remind us more of Palenque than of Uxmal. Among 
 those described, the most modern, or most of these, 
 are in Yucatan; they belong to the time when the 
 kingdom of the Mayas flourished. Many of the 
 others belong to ages previous to the rise of this 
 kingdom; and in ages still earlier, ages older than 
 the great forest, there were other cities, doubtless, 
 whose remains have perished utterly, or were long ago 
 removed for use in the later constructions. The evi- 
 dence of repeated reconstructions in some of the cities 
 before they were deserted has been pointed out by 
 explorers. I have quoted what Charnay says of it in 
 his description of Mitla. At Palenque, as at Mitla, the 
 oldest work is the most artistic and admirable. Over 
 this feature of the monuments, and the manifest signs 
 of their difference in age, the attention .of investiga- 
 tors has lingered in speculation. They find in them a 
 significance which is stated as follows by Brasseur de 
 Bourbourg: * Among the edifices forgotten by time 
 in the forests of Mexico and Central America, we find 
 architectural characteristics so different from each 
 other, that it is as impossible to attribute them all to 
 the same people as to believe they were all built at 
 the same epoch.' In his view, *the substructions at 
 Mayapan, some of those at Tulha, and a great part of 
 chose at Palenque,' are among the older remains. 
 These are not the oldest cities whose remains are still 
 
114 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 visible, but they may have been built, in part, upon 
 the foundations of cities much more ancient." 
 
 Papa. — We have already learned that the Jaredites 
 were here over sixteen hundred years before the 
 Nephites and Zarahemlaites came. The Nephites 
 first settled in South America, and the Zarahemlaites 
 in Central ATirrica. By reference to the book of 
 Omni we learn that about four hundred (and maybe 
 more) years passed away before these two latter 
 peoples came together and united in one. The Zara- 
 hemlaites found the country in which they settled 
 covered with ruins of cities. It would be natural that 
 they would begin to rebuild these cities, using the 
 old sites for the new cities, and using the stones that 
 had already been used by the first builders. They 
 were not so far advanced in civilization and in the 
 art of building as the former inhabitants were, as is 
 shown by verse 24 of the book of Omni, which Harry 
 may read : 
 
 Harry. — ^^Nevertheless, they had had many wars 
 and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword 
 from time to time; and their language had become 
 corrupted; and they had brought no records with 
 them: and they denied the being of their Creator; 
 and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could under- 
 stand them." 
 
 Papa. — The absence of records and a knowledge 
 of God alone is sufficient to show that they were not 
 as far advanced in civilization as those who had pre- 
 ceded them. This accounts for the conclusion made 
 by Mr. Baldwin that **at Palenque, as at Mitla, the 
 oldest work is most artistic and admirable." After 
 being occupied by this second people for nearly four 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 115 
 
 hundred years they were joined by the Nephites, and 
 no doubt as these cities had to a greater or less 
 extent gone into decay because these people who 
 built them the second time had gone backward 
 instead of improving in their civilization they were 
 rebuilt the third time, hence the statement made by 
 Mr. Baldwin that, '^Accepting the reports of explor- 
 ers as correct, there is evidence in the ruins that 
 Quirigua [Kee-ree-goo'-ah] is older than Copan, and 
 that Copan is older than Palenque. Quirigua was 
 evidently built by the Jaredites, Copan by the 
 Zarahemlaites, and Palenque by the Nephites and 
 Zarahemlaites after they had become one nation. 
 Another very important thought is that in this region 
 where the Book of Mormon places three distinct 
 colonies is the only place where the ruins show the 
 same distinction. Most of the places it is only shown 
 that there were two distinct civilizations. Maude, 
 you may read from page 246 of Mr. Baldwin's book : 
 
 Maude,— ^ 'The development of civilization in Peru 
 was very different from that in Mexico and Central 
 America. In both regions the people were sun- 
 worshipers, but their religious organizations, as well 
 as their methods of building temples, were unlike. 
 Neither of these peoples seems to have borrowed from 
 the other." 
 
 Papa. — He thinks, he says farther on, that they 
 might have had the same origin, but if they did it was 
 3o long ago that they had grown to be entirely unlike 
 each other. I think this is sufficient to show that not 
 only in tradition but in the ruins, the Book of Mor- 
 mon story is fully sustained, that there were three 
 different colonies came to this country, and two are 
 
lie BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 made very prominent. We have learned that the 
 Jaredites settled in or near Yucatan in Central 
 America and Mexico. You may read, Harry, from 
 the history of the Jaredites, Book of Ether, chapter 4, 
 verses 18 and 47 : 
 
 Harry. — **And it came to pass that Coriantum did 
 walk in the steps of his father, and did build many 
 mighty cities, and did administer that which was 
 good unto his people, in all his days." "And it came 
 to pass that Morianton built up many cities, and the 
 people became exceeding rich under his reign, both 
 in buildings, and in gold, and in silver, and in raising 
 grain, and in flocks, and herds, and such things 
 which had been restored unto them." 
 
 Fapa. — In the Book of Mormon, as we learned in 
 our former conversation, the "land southward" was 
 South America and the "land northward" was North 
 America. In the light of this, listen while Harry 
 reads verses 59 to 70, same chapter : 
 
 Harry. — "And they built a great city by the narrow 
 neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the 
 land. And they did preserve the land southward for a 
 wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the 
 land northward was covered with inhabitants; and 
 they were exceeding industrious, and they did buy 
 and sell, and traffic one with another, that they might 
 get gain. And they did work in all manner of ore, 
 and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and 
 brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it 
 out of the earth ; wherefore they did cast up mighty 
 heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and 
 of iron, and of copper. And they did work all man- 
 ner of fine work. And they did have silks, and fine 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 117 
 
 twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, 
 that they might clothe themselves from their naked- 
 ness. And they did make all manner of tools to till 
 the earth, both to plow and to sow, to reap and to 
 hoe, and also to thrash. And they did make all 
 manner of tools with which they did work their 
 beasts. And they did make all manner of weapons 
 of war. And they did work all manner of work of 
 exceeding curious workmanship. And never could 
 be a people more blest than were they, and more 
 prospered by the hand of the Lord. And they were 
 in a land that was choice above all lands, for the 
 Lord had spoken it." 
 
 Papa. — ^You see that the statement here is that 
 they spread over all the land northward and became 
 exceedingly numerous. They built many mighty 
 cities J beginning at the narrow neck of land. This 
 is what we know as the Isthmus of Panama. We 
 should expect to find many ruins in this part of the 
 country, then, and evidences of settlements even 
 farther north. Baldwin mentions this on page 126. 
 You may read it, Maude : 
 
 Maude. — "The remains of ancient cities are abund- 
 ant in the settled portion of Yucatan, which lies 
 north of the great forest. Charnay found *the coun- 
 try covered with them from north to south.' Stephens 
 states, in the Preface to his work on Yucatan, that 
 he visited *forty-four ruined cities or places' in which 
 such remains are still found, most of which were 
 unknown to white men, even to those inhabiting the 
 country; and he adds that * time and the elements are 
 hastening them to utter destruction.' " 
 
118 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Papa. — Ernest, you may read from Short's book, 
 page 347 : 
 
 Ernest, — * 'Probably the most remarkable group 
 of ruins in that richest of American architectural 
 fields — Yucatan — is situated at Uxmal, in latitude 
 twenty degrees, twenty-seven minutes, thirty sec- 
 onds, thirty-five miles south of Merida. The reader 
 is of course acquainted with the detail of the survey 
 of this remarkable city of antiquity through the work 
 of Stephens and Catherwood. These indefatigable 
 explorers examined about forty ruined cities, nearly 
 all of which were previously unknown to others than 
 the natives, and many of them were unknown at 
 Merida, the capital of the country. While these 
 travelers are preeminently the explorers of Yucatan, 
 there are others whose services have been of great 
 value in the same field." 
 
 Papa. — In a foot-note at the bottom of this same 
 page Mr. Short says he took this information from 
 Stephens' Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, New 
 York (first edition, 1843, and others subsequently.) 
 According to Mr. Short and Mr. Baldwin, these 
 men were the first to explore these ruins and first 
 to discover many of them. The Book of Mormon, 
 however, had said thirteen years before that the 
 cities had been built there. Even as far north as 
 Arkansas there are evidences of these mighty cities. 
 Ethel, you may read from page 183 of this large 
 scrap-book of mine, a portion of an article that I 
 clipped from the Sunday Post' Dispatch, of St. Louis, 
 a few months ago : 
 
 Ethel. — "The discovery of a prehistoric city in 
 Arkansas has been announced. It extends through 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 119 
 
 Desha, Drew, and Ashley Counties. Major Lamar 
 Fontaine, of Lyons, Mississippi, said of it: *I passed 
 through the remains of this city east and west for 
 a distance of thirty-five miles, and as far as my eye 
 could reach, the ruins still continued. Turning north 
 for a distance of twenty-five miles, the ruins did not 
 end. Computing the area thus traversed, and esti- 
 mating that each dwelling contained five inhabitants, 
 I found that eleven million people must have had 
 their homes in this great city.' A few weeks ago the 
 Sunday Post- Dispatch made the public familiar with 
 the astonishing fact that several buried cities of great 
 extent have been discovered in New Mexico and 
 Western Texas. Archaeologists are convinced that 
 in some remote era a highly civilized race must have 
 existed for centuries in the vast region between the 
 plains of Texas and the mountains of Peru. This 
 unknown nation that sowed the earth with gigantic 
 ruins must have passed away long before the Aztecs 
 and Toltecs occupied Mexico. There are great 
 walled cities, now covered with forests of mahogany, 
 in Honduras, and vast piles of dressed stone, much of 
 it yet standing in walls, in the mountains of Peru, 
 concerning which the people who were conquered by 
 the Spaniards in the early part of the sixteenth cen- 
 tury knew nothing." 
 
 Papa. — We will conclude this part of the subject 
 by asking Ethel to read from page 163, same book, 
 an extract from the Denver Republican, June 9, 1900 : 
 
 Ethel. — **Emmett S. Compton, who is connected 
 with Harvard University, has become convinced that 
 Joseph Smith did not make up all of the Mormon 
 bible. The book on which the Mormon faith is 
 
120 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 based, purports to tell of the peoples who inhabited 
 Central and South America centuries before the 
 arrival of Columbus. . . . An expedition from the 
 Mormon church is now in Mexico and Central 
 America looking over the ruins of great cities and 
 places of worship seeking for proofs of the authen- 
 ticity of their bible. Mr. Compton, who is an 
 authority on archaeology, was invited to go with 
 the party, but returned because he feared the hot 
 weather, having already had a touch of the fever 
 which prevails in Yucatan during the rainy season. 
 *I can't say that the Mormon faith appears any less 
 preposterous to me than it did,' Mr. Compton said at 
 the Brown Palace hotel last night. *But I am pretty 
 well convinced that some of the narratives on which 
 it is based relating to those old cities of Yucatan were 
 not wholly imaginative. I don't feel at liberty to 
 discuss the matter at length, for you see I only went 
 along because of my knowledge in certain lines of 
 archaeology, in tracing out ruins. I have helped to 
 dig out cities in Assyria, and have worked in Persia 
 and Egypt, and so, of course, I can trace the lines 
 of old cities and of fortifications that would be all 
 but undiscernible to a man that had not that 
 experiance. But while I shall leave the detailed 
 reports with reference to the Book of Mormon and 
 all that sort of thing to the representative of that 
 church with whom I am working, I can say this, 
 that we found cities and settlements that fitted into 
 the accounts of cities and fortresses in the Mormon 
 bible in a way that could not have been accidental. 
 We found bas-reliefs describing battles, and journeys, 
 and religious observances, exactly as described in 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 121 
 
 the words of Joseph Smith. How do I explain it? 
 The only explanation that seems possible to me, for 
 of course all the talk about the Angel Moroni show- 
 ing Smith how to read the golden plates is non- 
 sense, is that some traveler must have studied those 
 ruins carefully, must have seen them, in a much bet- 
 ter state of preservation than when we saw them, and 
 then Smith in some way got hold of his writings, or 
 talked with him, and made his discoveries the basis 
 of the pseudo -bible. I hope to go down there again, 
 with a party less trammeled. This time we went 
 to prove one particular thing, not to make a study of 
 the ruins from a scientific standpoint. We went to 
 places where I am sure no white man had been for 
 centuries, cutting our way through the most tangled 
 jungle you ever could think of, and crossing swamps 
 and rivers where it was a fight to make every foot 
 of the way. But the ruins are more interesting 
 and I believe more important than those of Egypt 
 and Assyria on which so much time has been 
 spent.' " 
 
 Papa. — Mr. Compton bears good testimony to the 
 Book of Mormon, but when he undertakes to explain 
 away the miraculous part of the coming forth of the 
 book, he makes himself ridiculous. He says the only 
 way he can account for the agreement between the 
 story told by the Book of Mormon and that told by 
 the ruins, is that some traveler had studied the ruins 
 and that Joseph Smith got hold of his writings or 
 talked with him and made up the book from that. It 
 did not occur to him, evidently, that it would have 
 been impossible that this could have occurred and no 
 one have known it but Joseph Smith or those who 
 
122 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 assisted him. Then a little farther on he overthrows 
 his own position by saying that he was sure the 
 places they visited no white man had visited for cen- 
 turies. How could some traveler have visited them 
 and told Joseph Smith about them if that was the 
 case? The Mormon church that he speaks of is the 
 church in Utah, and I do not blame him for saying 
 that their doctrine was preposterous, especially in 
 the light of the Book of Mormon teaching on the 
 question of polygamy; but he ought not to judge 
 this latter-day work by Utah Mormonism. We have 
 certainly found enough to establish the fact that 
 there was a civilization in this country just as, and 
 the center of their population was where, the Book 
 of Mormon records it. We will now take up the 
 different things and events in the Book of Mormon 
 history that are corroborated by traditions and dis- 
 coveries among the ruins. These things relate 
 entirely to things transpiring after they came here; 
 their language, writing, and so forth. Harry, you 
 may read from the Book of Mormon, Nephi, chapter 
 1, verse 1 : 
 
 Harry. — **I, Nephi, having been born of goodly 
 parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the 
 learning of my father; and having seen many afflic- 
 tions in the course of my days — nevertheless, having 
 been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, 
 having had a great knowledge of the goodness and 
 the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of 
 my proceeding in my days; yea, I make a record in 
 the language of my father, which consists of the 
 learning of the Jews, and the language of the Egyp- 
 tians." 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 123 
 
 Papa. — You may read, also, versea 89 and 90, of 
 chapter 4 of the Book of Mormon, page 444: 
 
 Hirry. — *'And now behold, we have written this 
 record according to our knowledge in the characters, 
 which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, 
 being handed down and altered by us, according to 
 our manner of speech. And if our plates had been 
 sufficiently large, we should have written in Hebrew; 
 but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also ; and if 
 we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would 
 have had no imperfection in our record." 
 
 Paph. — In these quotations we are told that they 
 were learned in the Egyptian language, hence we 
 would expect to find some evidence of that fact in 
 the ruins. Ernest, you may read from Mr. Short's 
 work, pages 415 and 416 : 
 
 Ernest. — "It is scarcely necessary for us to remark 
 that the seeming analogies between the Maya (Cen- 
 tral American) sculpture and that of Egypt have 
 been noted. Juarros [Hoo-ar'-ros], in speaking of 
 Palenque art, says: *The hieroglyphics, symbols, 
 and emblems which have been discovered in the tem- 
 ples, bear so strong a resemblance to those of the 
 Egyptians, as to encourage the supposition that a 
 colony of that nation may have founded the city of 
 Palenque or Culhuacan [Kool-oo-ah-cahn'].' Gior- 
 dan found, as he thought, the most striking analogies 
 between the Central American remains, as well as 
 those of Mexico, and those of the Egyptians.'* 
 
 Papa. — We learned that Palenque was probably 
 built by the Nephites and they were the ones who 
 were learned in the language of the Egyptians. That 
 there is a resemblance almost all authors agree, and 
 
124 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 yet they are puzzled that they can not read them. 
 You may read from page 418, Ernest: 
 
 Ernest. — ^^Notwithstanding the oft-repeated asser- 
 tion that a resemblance between Egyptian and Maya 
 hieroglyphics exists, no one of the Egyptologists so 
 successful in their chosen field have been able to 
 decipher the Maya writing. It is not improbable that 
 the Palenque and Copan civilization received its first 
 impulse from some of the peoples of the southern or 
 eastern shores of the Mediterranean, but from which 
 it would be impossible to say even if we were certain 
 that such was the case. Whatever of a foreign char- 
 acter it may have had at first has been mostly lost in 
 the independent development of new and original 
 characteristics, the natural outgrowth of new wants 
 and new conditions, arising through the lapse of 
 many centuries. ' * 
 
 Papa, — Mr. Short here unconsciously confirms the 
 statement made by the Book of Mormon as just read 
 by Harry, that the language had been altered 
 **according to their manner of speech." Mr. Short 
 does not deny that at first these people may have 
 used the Egyptian, but thinks that it is very probable 
 that they did, but if they did then it had been gradu- 
 ally altered to suit **new wants and new conditions." 
 Another man, a Mr. Delafield, thinks he has found a 
 great many things in which it is shown that they 
 understood the Egyptian. On page 65 of his work, 
 which is a very rare one, he reviews these reasons : 
 
 Maude. — *'Let us now take a brief review of the 
 analogical evidence of an identity of the family of 
 Mexico and Peru with that of Hindostan or Egypt, to 
 simplify which we name the several coincidences, 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 125 
 
 which have been specified, in their proper order. 
 
 1. Philological. The various analogies in language. 
 II. Anatomical. The peculiar craniological forma- 
 tion common to those countries, as asserted by Doctor 
 "Warren. III. Mythological. The existence of two 
 peculiar modes of worship, addressed to two deities : 
 one sanguinary, the other peaceful. . . . IV. Hiero- 
 glyphic. . . . The use of three peculiar systems of 
 hieroglyphic writing of the Egyptians. . . . V. 
 Astronomical. 1. Identity in the division of the 
 year, month, and week ; and the calculations thereof. 
 
 2. Identity in the use of intercalary days. 3. Identity 
 in zodiacal signs. VI. Architectural. 1. Identity in 
 sepulchral tumuli [mounds for burial]. 2. Identity 
 in pyramidal temples. 3. In the uses of these 
 temples. 4. In the mechanical power which enabled 
 them to move masses that no other races have ever 
 accomplished. 5. Their use of hieroglyphic sculp- 
 ture on all their sacred buildings. 6. Similarity in 
 zodiacal and planispheric carvings. 7. Identity in 
 sepulchral ornaments. . . . VII. . . . Identity in 
 practice of embalming and preservation of the royal 
 corpses." 
 
 Papa. — There are some pretty hard words in this 
 quotation and you will have to study the dictionary 
 a little, I think, before you can fully understand 
 them, but you can do that at your leisure some other 
 time. The principal point you can easily understand, 
 however, and that is that under seven divisions Mr. 
 Delafield has found twenty-six different things in 
 which the ancient inhabitants of this country were 
 like the Egyptians. I want to call your attention, 
 however, to the third reason that Mr. Delafield gives ; 
 
126 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 viz., "The existence of two peculiar modes of worship, 
 addressed to two deities, one sanguinary, the other 
 peaceful." Sanguinary means bloody, blood-thirsty, 
 and cruel. This evidently refers to the Lamanites, as 
 Jarom in his book, verse 14, says they loved blood. 
 You may read it, Harry : 
 
 Harry. — *'And they were exceeding more numer- 
 ous than were they of the Nephites : and they loved 
 murder, and would drink the blood of beasts." 
 
 Papa. — The Nephites were opposite to this and 
 loved peace and hated war. So the discoveries made 
 by these scientific men exactly accord with the Book 
 of Mormon on this point. Another point that Mr. 
 Delafield mentions is in his sixth division. No. 4: '*In 
 the mechanical power that enabled them to move 
 masses that no other races have ever accomplished." 
 Mr. Baldwin speaks of this on pages 232 to 234. You 
 may read it, Maude: 
 
 Maude. — " *In this place, also, there are stones so 
 large and so overgrown that our wonder is incited, it 
 being incomprehensible how the power of man could 
 have placed them where we see them. They are 
 variously wrought, and some of them, having the 
 form of men, must have been idols. Near the walls 
 are many oaves and excavations under the earth, but 
 in another place, farther west, are other and greater 
 monuments, such as large gateways with hinges, 
 platforms, and porches, each made of a single stone. 
 It surprised me to see these enormous gateways made 
 of great masses of stone, some of which were thirty 
 feet long, fifteen high, and six thick.' Many of the 
 stone monuments at Tiahuanaco [Tee-ah-oo-ahn- 
 ah'-ko] have been removed, some for building, some 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 127 
 
 for other purposes. In one case, *large masses of 
 sculptured stone, ten yards in length and six in 
 width' were used to make grinding-stones for a 
 chocolate mill.' The principal monuments now seen 
 on this field of ruins are a vast mound covering 
 several acres, where there seems to have been a 
 great edifice, fragments of columns, erect slabs of 
 stone which formed parts of buildings, and several 
 of the monolithic gateways, the largest of which was 
 made of a single stone ten feet high and thirteen 
 broad. . . . The doorway is six feet four inches 
 high, and three feet two inches wide. [See opposite 
 page.] Above it, along the whole length of the 
 stone, which is now broken, is a cornice covered with 
 sculptured figures. 'The whole neighborhood,' says 
 Mr. Squier, 'is strewn with immense blocks of stone 
 elaborately wrought, equaling, if not surpassing in 
 size, any known to exist in Egypt or India.'/" 
 
 Papa. — It certainly looks wonderful, and that God 
 must have inspired these men to search out these 
 things which prove so conclusively the story of the 
 Book of Mormon. The only thing that puzzles the 
 scientific men is that they can not read the inscrip- 
 tions, but they can not deny that they resemble the 
 Egyptian. We who believe the Book of Mormon 
 do not have such difficulties, as it says that the 
 Egyptian characters in which the record was kept 
 were "reformed." The people were here a thousand 
 years and hence had ample opportunity to change 
 them. We can look at the old books which were 
 published even one hundred years ago and we can 
 hardly read them, so much have the forms of the 
 letters and spellings of the words changed. The 
 
128 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 extract that Harry has read from the Book of Mor- 
 mon also mentions that they were educated in the 
 Hebrew language, and Mormon says that if they 
 could have written in Hebrew there would have 
 been no imperfection in their record; but they did 
 not have room on the plates to write in Hebrew, 
 hence they had to use the Egyptian. The Egyptian 
 was evidently something like what we call '*short- 
 hand" and the Hebrew like our *'longhand." Their 
 writing- material was scarce and for that reason they 
 used the Egyptian mostly. But the Hebrew had been 
 altered by them also, he says. Now we will take up 
 this part of the subject and see if it is sustained by 
 the discoveries made among the ruins. Ethel, you 
 may read us statements made by Mr. Bancroft and 
 others as quoted by Elder H.eman C. Smith in his 
 Truth Defended, pages 129 to 133: 
 
 Ethel. — "The theory that the Americans are of 
 Jewish descent has been discussed more minutely 
 and at greater length than any other. Its advocates, 
 or at least those of them who have made original 
 researches, are comparatively few; but the extent 
 of their investigations and the multitude of parallel- 
 isms they adduce in support of their hypothesis, 
 exceed by far anything we have yet encountered." — 
 Native Races of the Pacific States, vol. 5, pp. 77, 78. 
 
 Papa. — Mr. Bancroft says here that the multitude 
 of parallelisms that they adduce exceeds anything 
 that he has encountered, and that is saying a good 
 deal, as he has been a great student of this question 
 and for that reason he would be a competent judge. 
 He seems to incline to the belief that the originators 
 of this ancient American civilization were Jews. 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 128 
 
 You may read the opinion of Mr. G. R. Lederer, 
 a converted Jew and editor of a paper called The 
 Israelite Indeed: 
 
 Ethel. — "We suppose that many, if not most of our 
 readers have seen, in religious as well as secular 
 papers, the accounts of some relics which were found 
 a few months ago in a mound near Newark, Ohio. 
 These relics consist of stones, in strange shapes, 
 bearing Hebrew inscriptions, which makes the case 
 particularly interesting to me, as a Hebrew. I have 
 read, therefore, with great interest, all that has been 
 published concerning them, and studied the opinions 
 of different men of science and learning, who have 
 expressed themselves in public; but I desire to see 
 the objects themselves, to put my finger on these 
 relics, which bear inscriptions of the holy language, 
 a language which once was written with the finger of 
 God upon tables of stone; a language spoken and 
 written by the prophets of Israel, who predicted the 
 main features, not only of the history of Israel, but 
 also of the world at large. It is one of the peculiar 
 and national characteristics of the Jews, to feel a 
 sacred awe for that language, and even for *the 
 square characters' in which it is written, so that 
 every written or printed Hebrew page is called *She- 
 mos,' by which the people mean to say, a paper on 
 which holy names are printed or written. A pious 
 Jew would never use any Hebrew book or paper for 
 any secular purpose whatever, and carefully picks up 
 every bit and burns it. Being now, by the grace of 
 God, an ^Israelite indeed,' believing in him concern- 
 ing whom Moses and the prophets did write, that 
 sacred language has increased in its charming influ- 
 
130 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 ence upon my mind; this may explain my anxiety to 
 see those relics with the Hebrew inscriptions, with- 
 out, however, entertaining the least hope of ever 
 having that wish realized. This time, how^ever, I was 
 gladly disappointed ; for, in calling a few days ago 
 on my friend, Mr. Theodore Dwight, (the Recording 
 Secretary of the 'American Ethnological Society,' 
 and my associate in the editorship of this Magazine,) 
 my eyes met with the very objects of my desire. 
 That I examined these antiquities carefully, none of 
 our readers will, I think, entertain any doubt. I rec- 
 ognized all the letters except one, (the ayin,) though 
 the forms of many of them are different from those 
 now in use. This, however, is not the case with the 
 stone found first, (viz., in July, I860,) which has the 
 form of an ancient jar, bearing Hebrew inscriptions 
 on its four sides, which are imperfectly such charac- 
 ters as those generally in use now. I can not form 
 any opinion concerning the use or meaning of this, 
 which was found first, as the inscriptions do not lead 
 to any suggestions whatever. They are as follows : 
 
 1. *Debar Jehovah,' (meaning the word of Jehovah.) 
 
 2. *Kokesh Kodeshim,' (The Holy of Holies.) 3. 
 *Thorath Jehovah,' (The law of Jehovah,) and 4. 
 *Melek Aretz,' (King of the Earth.)"— TAe Israelite 
 Indeed, May, 1861, pp. 264, 265. 
 
 Papa. — Mr. Lederer agrees with the statement 
 made by Mormon. He says that he recognized all 
 the letters except one, though the forms of many of 
 them were different from those in common use now, 
 and Mormon says the Hebrew had been changed by 
 them also. It proves the Book of Mormon record, 
 however, that they were learned in this language. 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 131 
 
 Now, Ethel, you may read the next quotation: 
 Ethel. — ** *I believe, with many others, that the 
 North American Indians are a mixed people — that 
 they have Jewish blood in their veins, though I 
 would not assert, as some have undertaken to prove, 
 "that they are Jews," or that they are *'the ten lost 
 tribes of Israel." From the character and conforma- 
 tion of their heads, I am compelled to look upon them 
 as an amalgam race; but still savages; and from 
 many of their customs, which seem to me to be 
 peculiarly Jewish, as well as from the character of 
 iheir heads, I am forced to believe that some part 
 of those ancient tribes, who have been dispersed 
 by Christians in so many ways, and in so many 
 different eras, have found their way to this country, 
 where they have entered amongst the native stock. 
 ... I am induced to believe thus from the very 
 many customs which I have witnessed among them, 
 that appear to be decidedly Jewish, and many of 
 them peculiarly so, that it would seem almost impos- 
 sible, or at all events, exceedingly improbable, that 
 two peoples in a state of nature should have hit upon 
 them, and practiced them exactly alike. . . . The first 
 and most striking fact amongst the North American 
 Indians that refers us to the Jews, is that of their 
 worshiping, in all parts, the Great Spirit, or Jehovah, 
 as the Hebrews were ordered to do by divine precept, 
 instead of plurality of Gods, as ancient Pagans and 
 Heathens did, and the idols of their own formation.' 
 . . . First, 'The Jews had their sanctum sanctorums, 
 and 60 it may be said the Indians have, in their 
 council or medicine houses, which are always held, 
 as sacred places.' Second, *As the Jews had, they 
 
132 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 have their High Priests and their Prophets.' Third, 
 *Amongst the Indians, as amongst the ancient 
 Hebrews, the women are not allowed to worship with 
 the men, and in all cases, also, they eat separately.' 
 Fourth, *The Indians, everywhere, believe that they 
 are the favorite people of the Great Spirit, and they 
 certainly are, like that ancient people, persecuted, as 
 every man's hand seems raised against them.' Fifth, 
 *In their marriages, the Indians, as did the ancient 
 Jews, uniformly buy their wives by giving presents; 
 and in many tribes, very closely resemble them in 
 other forms and ceremonies of their marriages.' 
 Sixth, *In their preparations for war, and in peace- 
 making, they are strikingly similar.' Seventh, *In 
 their treatment of the sick, burial of the dead, and 
 mourning, they are also similar.' Eighth, *In their 
 bathing and ablutions, at all seasons of the year, as a 
 part of their religious observances, having separate 
 places for men and women to perform these immer- 
 sions, they resemble again.' Ninth, *And the cus- 
 tom, among the women, of absenting themselves 
 during the lunar influences, is exactly consonant to 
 the Mosaic Law.' Tenth, * After this season of sepa- 
 ration, purification in running water, and anointing, 
 precisely in accordance with the Jewish command, is 
 required before she can enter the family lodge.' 
 Eleventh, *Many of them have a feast closely resem- 
 bling the annual feast of the Jewish Passover, and 
 amongst others, an occasion much like the Israelitish 
 Feast of the Tabernacles, which lasted eight days, 
 (when history tells us they carried willow boughs, 
 -and fasted several days and nights,) making sacri- 
 fices of the first-fruits and best of everything, closely 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 133 
 
 resembling the sin offering and peace offering of the 
 Hebrews. (See vol. 1, pp. 159-170, of Religious 
 Ceremonies of the Mandans.)' Twelfth, 'Amongst 
 the list of their customs, however, we meet a number 
 which had their origin, it would seem, in the Jewish 
 ceremonial code, and which are so very peculiar in 
 their forms, that it would seem quite improbable, and 
 almost impossible, that two different peoples should 
 ever have hit upon them alike, without some knowl- 
 edge of each other. These, I consider, go farther 
 than anything else as evidence, and carry in my 
 mind conclusive proof that these people are tinctured 
 with Jewish blood.' " — Catlin's North American 
 Indians, vol. 2, pp. 231-234. 
 
 Papa. — This would seem sufficient to settle the 
 matter, but we want to introduce one more testi- 
 mony. You may read it, Maude, from Brother 
 Blair's book, Joseph the Seer, pages 157 and 158: 
 
 Maude. — **We are all more or less acquainted with 
 the so-called *Indian Mounds' found in various parts 
 of our country. There are hundreds of them in Ohio 
 alone — several near Newark, Licking County. Pipes, 
 copper beads strung upon a vegetable fibre, human 
 skeletons, skulls, bones of animals and birds, some 
 charred by fire, as if they had been sacrificed upon a 
 burning pile, have been obtained from them. "Within 
 the past few years some relics have been discovered, 
 which are thought to throw light on the subject: The 
 first is a little coarse sandstone, not quite an inch 
 and a half high by about two inches long. It was 
 found in the * Wilson Mound,' and bears the face of a 
 human being. On the forehead are five distinct 
 Hebrew characters, which are interpreted to mean : 
 
134 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 *May the Lord have mercy on him (or me) an 
 untimely birth,' evidently an expression of humilia- 
 tion. The second relic from the same mound is 
 stone closely resembling limestone. It is rather tri- 
 angular than square in its form, and yet it differs 
 widely from both. It represents an animal, and con- 
 tains four human faces and three inscriptions in 
 Hebrew, signifying devotion, reverence, and natural 
 depravity. The third stone was found in 1860, about 
 three miles from Newark. It has a shape like a 
 wedge, and is about six inches long, tapering at the 
 end. At one end is a handle, and at the top are four 
 Hebrew inscriptions. The last relic is an object of 
 much interest. It was found in 1860, and has 
 engraved upon it a figure of Moses, and the Ten 
 Commandments. One side is depressed, and the 
 reverse protrudes. Over the figure is a Hebrew 
 word signifying *Moses.' The other inscriptions are 
 almost literally-the words fpund in some parts of the 
 Bible, and the Ten Commandments are given in part 
 and entirely — the longest being abbreviated. The 
 alphabet used, it is thought, is the original Hebrew 
 one, as there are letters known in the Hebrew alpha- 
 bet [not] now in use, but bearing a resemblance to 
 them. All things on this stone point to the time 
 before Ezra, to the lost tribes of Israel, and the 
 theory is, that some of these tribes found their way 
 into this continent, and settled where the state of 
 Ohio now exists." — From the Prophetio Watchfnari, 
 September 14, 1866. 
 
 Papa. — Ezra lived about five hundred and thirty - 
 six years before Christ, and the Nephites came here 
 about six hundred years before Christ, so this state- 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 135 
 
 ment that all things on this stone point to the time 
 before Ezra agrees with the Book of Mormon account 
 precisely. We might present an almost unlimited 
 number of testimonies upon these two points. But 
 this is certainly sufficient to prove that they were of 
 Jewish descent and that they understood the Egyp- 
 tian language and arts. And it proves also that they 
 had portions of the Bible with them, just as the Book 
 of Mormon claims they did. You remember, no 
 doubt, that we learned in our former talk that they 
 had the five books of Moses and the prophets, includ- 
 ing a portion of Jeremiah. We will now pass on to 
 other matter connected with their history. Harry, 
 you may read from the Book of Mormon. I will let 
 you read from the history of the Jaredites first, as 
 they were the first to arrive here, then from the 
 history of the Nephites. Read from Ether 4: 14 and 
 lNephi5:130: 
 
 Harry. — '*And the Lord began again to take the 
 curse from off the land, and the house of Emer did 
 prosper exceedingly under the reign of Emer; and in 
 the space of sixty and two years, they had become 
 exceeding strong, insomuch that they became 
 exceeding rich, having all manner of fruit, and of 
 grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, 
 and of silver, and of. precious things, and also all 
 manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, 
 and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kind 
 of animals which were useful for the food of man; 
 and they also had horses, and asses, and there were 
 elephants, and cureloms, and cumoms: all of which 
 were useful unto man, and more especially the ele- 
 phants, and cureloms, and cumoms." **And it came 
 
136 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as 
 we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts 
 in the forests of every kind, both the cow, and the 
 ox, and the ass, and the horse, and the goat, and the 
 wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which 
 were for the use of men." 
 
 Papa. — These quotations which Harry has read 
 form one of the weapons that the enemies of the 
 Book of Mormon have used against it. The oldest 
 book I have in which this objection is made against 
 the Book of Mormon is one written by John Hyde 
 and published in 1857. On page 224 he quotes this 
 last verse read by Harry and then says: "This is 
 a palpable falsehood, and eminently displays the 
 impostor's hoof." He then covers two pages with 
 quotations and statements in which it is declared 
 that the animals spoken of here were not known in 
 America until after Columbus discovered it. This 
 opinion was entertained very early and is still per- 
 sisted in by some who are ignorant of recent discov- 
 eries. To-day, however, in the light of recent 
 discoveries these passages form one of the strongest 
 proofs that neither Joseph Smith nor any other man 
 living in this age of the world wrote the Book of 
 Mormon. Had any man written it by his own wis- 
 dom he would not have put in it that which at that 
 time was contrary to the opinions held by everybody. 
 The common opinion is expressed by Mr. Hyde on page 
 226 where he says: "The elephant is not a native of 
 America and never was its inhabitant." But the 
 Book of Mormon said, as early as 1830, that it was. 
 Now who is right? Maude, you may read from 
 Brother Blair's book again, pages 166 and 167: 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 187 
 
 Maude. — **Profe9sor "Winchell in his sketches of 
 Creation, page 210, says: *It is a curious fact that 
 so many generi, now extinct from the continent, but 
 living in other quarters of the globe, were once 
 abundant on the plains of North America. Various 
 species of the horse have dwelt here for ages, and 
 the question reasonably arises whether the wild 
 horses of the Pampas may not have been indigenous. 
 Here, too, the camel found a suitable home.' ... A 
 correspondent of the Eugene City (Oregon) Guard 
 gives the following account of a visit made June, 
 1877, by himself and another person to the so-called 
 fossil beds of Lake County, that State: . . . *We 
 found fossil bones of the elephant, camel, horse, and 
 elk, OP reindeer, the horse being much more abun- 
 dant than either of the others, but all being so clearly 
 marked as to leave no doubt of their identity. There 
 were other bones, apparently of large animals, but 
 your correspondent was unable to name the animal 
 they once belonged to. Among the fossils found, 
 the smaller quadrupeds had a representation ; bones 
 answering to the fox and wolf were found; also 
 others answering to the sheep or goat in size and 
 appearance.' " 
 
 Papa. — Ethel, you may read from the Report of 
 the Archaeological Committee appointed by the church 
 a few years ago to collect evidences on these ques- 
 tions. You will find some quotations on this subject 
 on pages 82 and 83 : 
 
 Ethel. — "In the United States we detect also some 
 evidences of the coexistence of man and extinct 
 species of quadrupeds. Doctor Koch, the recon- 
 structor of the Tertiary Zeuglodon, insisted long ago 
 
138 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 that he had found in Missouri such an association of 
 mastodon and Indian remains as to prove that the 
 two had lived contemporaneously. I have myself 
 observed the bones of the mastodon and elephant 
 imbedded in peat at depths so shallow that I could 
 readily believe the animals to have occupied the 
 country during its possession by the Indian ; and gave 
 publication to this conviction in 1862. More recently, 
 Professor Holmes, of Charlestown, has informed the 
 Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia that he 
 finds upon the banks of the Ashley River a remark- 
 able conglomeration of fossil remains, in deposits of 
 post-tertiary age. Remains of the hog, the horse, and 
 other animals of recent date, together with human 
 bones, stone arrow-heads, hatchets and fragments 
 of pottery, are there lying mingled with the bones 
 of the mastodon and extinct gigantic lizards." — 
 Sketches of Creation, by Winchell, p. 356. 
 
 Papa. — Professor Winchell thinks he had advanced 
 these thoughts very early when he says he **gave 
 publication to this conviction in 1862." But the 
 Book of Mormon had anticipated scientific research 
 thirty-two years I You may read the next quotation, 
 Ethel: 
 
 Ethel. — "Professor O. C. Marsh, in an address 
 before the American Association for the Advancement 
 of Science, Nashville, Tennessee, August 30, 1877, 
 page 30 : * When a student in Germany, some twelve 
 years ago, I heard a world -renowned professor of 
 zoology gravely inform his pupils that the horse was 
 a gift of the old world to the new, and was entirely 
 unknown in America until introduced by the Span- 
 iards. After the lecture I asked him whether no 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 130 
 
 earlier remains of horses had been found on this 
 continent, and was told in reply that the reports to 
 that effect were too unsatisfactory to be presented as 
 facts in science. This remark led me on my return 
 to examine the subject myself, and I have since 
 unearthed with my own hand not less than thirty 
 distinct species of the horse tribe in the tertiary 
 deposits of the West alone.' The pig. — * Although 
 the demonstration is not yet complete as in the 
 lineage of the horse, this is not owing to want of 
 material, but rather to the fact that the actual 
 changes which transform the early tertiary pig into 
 the modern Peccary were comparatively slight.' " — 
 Ibid., p. 37. 
 
 Papa, — This shows that as late as 1865 a "renowned 
 professor of zoology" thought and taught that "the 
 horse was a gift from the old world to the new." But 
 there is more farther on : 
 
 Ethel, — "Evidences of the extinct horse are found 
 as extensively as, in California, by Professor Whit- 
 ney ; in Nebraska by Professor Marsh ; in Idaho by 
 Clarence King; also in Texas, Missouri, South Caro- 
 lina, Peru, Utah, Washington, Dakota. The enamel 
 of teeth is more abundant than anything else; the 
 reason is obvious. Mastodon and elephant remains 
 are*found near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Besides the 
 well-known American mastodon, *M Americanus' 
 of the post-tertiary period, there appears to have 
 been at least three others which inhabited this conti- 
 nent." — (Doctor Leidy, p. 242.) Contributions to 
 Extinct Vertebrate Fauna of the Western Territories. 
 (The work is published by the United States under 
 
140 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 the supervision of Professor F. V. Hayden, United 
 States Geologist.) 
 
 Papa. — The statement in the Book of Mormon was 
 not so '^palpably false" as Mr. Hyde in 1857 thought, 
 it seems. And that which men have tried to use as a 
 weapon against God's work has proven to be an evi- 
 dence that the statement made by Isaiah that we 
 learned about in our other talk; viz., "The wisdom 
 of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding 
 of their prudent men shall be hid," is true. God in 
 his revealments to men often anticipates science and 
 scientific discoveries. I do not know as it is neces- 
 sary to present any more on this point, but I will ask 
 Ernest to read what Mr. Short says on this subject in 
 his book, pages 530 and 531 : 
 
 Ernest. — "The question as to whether man and 
 the mastodon were contemporaneous in America, has 
 long been a matter of dispute as the reader is aware 
 after the perusal of our second chapter and other 
 sources. The *elephant pipe' has been the means of 
 calling fresh attention to the subject. Doctor R. J. 
 Farquharson, of the Davenport Academy of Sci- 
 ences, . . . states that six or seven years ago Mr. 
 Peter Mare, a farmer, (whose estate was situated on 
 both sides of the line dividing Muscatine and Louisa 
 Counties, Iowa,) found the elephant pipe while plow- 
 ing corn on his land in Louisa County. The finder, 
 who had no idea of its archaeological value, kept it 
 with a number of ^Indian Stones,' as he termed them, 
 until last year (1878) when it became the property 
 of the Davenport Academy. Doctor Farquharson 
 says : *The ancient mounds were very abundant in 
 that vicinity (Louisa County), and rich in relics 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 141 
 
 which are deposited on the surface of the soil (not in 
 excavations), as we found in exploring a number. 
 In such a case it is not strange that a mound having 
 been gradually removed by long cultivation, the 
 relics so deposited should be reached and turned up 
 by the plow.' . . . *The pipe, which is of a fragile 
 sandstone, is of the ordinary Mound-builders' type, 
 and has every appearance of age and usage. Of its 
 genuineness I have no doubt. Together with the 
 **Elephant mound" of Wisconsin, the elephant head 
 of Palenque (depicted in Lord Kingsborough's great 
 work), our pipe completes the series of what the 
 French would call "documents" proving the fact of 
 the contemporaneous existence on this continent of 
 man and the mastodon.' The above facts, as stated 
 by Doctor Farquharson, were substantially embodied 
 in a paper read by Mr. Pratt before the Davenport 
 Academy, April 25, 1879." 
 
 Pa/pa. — We certainly can not be blamed for con- 
 sidering this as conclusive evidence in favor of the 
 Book of Mormon account, and rejecting the dogmatic 
 statement of Mr. Hyde that **the elephant is not a 
 native of America and never was its inhabitant." 
 We have not only found that the elephant was here, 
 but that other large animals of the elephant or mas- 
 todon species were here, and that they were here at 
 the same time that man was. These larger animals 
 that are called **cureloms and cumoms" in the Book 
 of Mormon were evidently of the mastodon or 
 elephant type for which there were no names in Eng- 
 lish, hence their names were transferred to the book 
 just as the Jaredites called them. There is one more 
 point which we wish to establish before we leave this 
 
142 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 subject. You will notice that the last part of the 
 quotation which Harry has read from Ether says, 
 **And there were elephants, and cureloms, and 
 cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and 
 more especially the elephants, and cureloms and 
 cumoms." This certainly signifies that they used 
 these large animals for beasts of burden, and strange 
 to say, we have something to sustain this statement 
 also. Ethel, you may read from page 75 of the 
 Archaeological Committee's report the opinion of Mr. 
 Frederick Larkin, M. D. : 
 
 Ethel, — "My theory that the prehistoric races used, 
 to some extent, the great American elephant, or mas- 
 todon, I believe is new, and no doubt will be con- 
 sidered visionary by many readers, and more 
 especially by prominent archaeologists. Finding the 
 form of an elephant engraved upon a copper relic 
 some six inches long and four wide, in a mound on 
 the Red House Creek, in the year 1854, and repre- 
 sented in harness with a sort of breast -collar with 
 tugs reaching past the hips, first led me to adopt the 
 theory. That the great beast was contemporary with 
 the Mound -builders is conceded by all, and also that 
 his bones and those of his master are crumbling: 
 together in the ground." — Ancient Man in America, 
 by Frederick Larkin, M. D., p. 10. 
 
 Papa, — Mr. Larkin thinks that the idea was new 
 that the ancient inhabitants of this country used these 
 larger animals, but the idea was twenty-four years 
 old with the Book of Mormon believers when he 
 found the copper relic that first gave him the idea. 
 These learned men, like Mr. Compton from whom we 
 have before quoted, think "all the talk about the 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 143 
 
 Angel Moroni showing Smith how to. read the golden 
 plates is nonsense," and yet one by one they come to 
 the same conclusions that the Book of Mormon pre- 
 sented in 1830. It is nonsense when God reveals it, 
 but when they study it out of the ruins and relics, 
 then it becomes the height of wisdom. We will now 
 pass on to the consideration of another topic. They 
 began very early to build large buildings called tem- 
 ples and places of worship. The first one you will 
 read about, Harry, in 2 Nephi 4: 21, 22: 
 
 Harry. — "And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I 
 did construct it after the manner of the temple of 
 Solomon, save it were not built of so many precious 
 things: for they were not to be found upon the land; 
 wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's 
 temple. But the manner of the construction was like 
 unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship 
 thereof was exceeding fine." 
 
 Papa. — This temple was built in the valley of 
 Cuzco (Koos'-ko). It was built at the first place 
 settled by the Nephites after they had become sepa- 
 rated from Laman and Lemuel, and after they had 
 become separate nations known as Nephites and 
 Lamanites. The archaeologists agree that the oldest 
 civilization or settlement was begun around Lake 
 Titicaca (Tee-tee-kah'-kah). Maude, you may 
 read from Baldwin, page 236, what he says about 
 this: 
 
 Maude. — **The uniform and constant report of 
 Peruvian tradition places the beginning of this old 
 civilization in the valley of Cuzco [Koos'-ko], near 
 Lake Titicaca [Tee-tee-kah'-kah]. There appeared 
 the first civilizers and the first civilized communities. 
 
144 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 This beautiful valley is the most elevated table-land 
 on the continent, Lake Titicaca being twelve thousand 
 eight hundred and forty- six feet above the sea-level. 
 Were it not within the tropics, it would be a region 
 of eternal snow, for it is more than four thousand feet 
 higher than the beginning of perpetual snow on Mont 
 Blanc." 
 
 Fapa, — Now, Ethel, you may read a description 
 of this land as given by a writer as quoted by the 
 Committee on Archaeology, page 22 : 
 
 Ethel, — **By reason of its lofty ranges of moun- 
 tains, Peru, although situated in the tropics, has the 
 advantage of enjoying a great variety of climate. In 
 many parts the salubrity of the climate is such that 
 it is even superior to some of the healthier cities of 
 Europe, and offers, according to latitude and peculiar 
 circumstances of the localities, desirable advantages 
 to European colonists. — Amazon Provinces of Peru, 
 by H. Guillame, F. R. G. S., p. 3. Moyobamba, 
 which stands twenty -seven hundred feet above the 
 sea, has a mean annual temperature of seventy -seven 
 degrees. The climate here is delightful. Nature is 
 so prodigal that everybody can get a living except 
 physicians. — Ibid., p. 4. Mr. Hillbeck, consul- 
 general for Germany in Peru, says Peru is one of the 
 healthiest countries in the world, and is highly suit- 
 able for European immigration. — Ibid., p. 6. The 
 existence of the king of rivers, with its numerous 
 tributaries, would be a great advantage to any coun- 
 try; more especially then must it be the case in 
 Peru, where the district through which it flows is 
 rich in every kind of mineral and vegetable product. 
 — Ibid., p. 15. The orange- trees of Moyobamba have 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 145 
 
 no rival in the world; the trees bloom all the year 
 round. The grape-vine bears three crops a year, 
 and pineapples grow to the weight of twenty pounds. 
 The plata or alligator pear is one of the most deli- 
 cious of fruits, and grows at Moyobamba. Guavas 
 [goo-a'-vas], figs, olives, also abound; maize, rice, 
 beans, peas, potatoes, onions, mountain cabbage, 
 yuca (yellow potato, an excellent kind, unique in 
 Peru) grow freely there. The soil is in many places 
 twenty feet deep, and sugar-cane grows to the height 
 of over thirty feet. — Ibid., p. 21." Markham, in his 
 work on Peru, says : "From Cerro de Pasco [Thar'-ro 
 de Pahs'-ko] there is a considerable descent south- 
 ward to the city of Juaja, the climate of which is said 
 to be almost perfect for patients with pulmonary 
 complaints. It is a charming little sierra [see-ar'-ah] 
 town, and near it on the eastern watershed is Tarma 
 [Tahr-mah], another sierra town, beautifully situ- 
 ated in an amphitheater of the mountains, clothed to 
 their summits with waving fields of barley. The 
 climate is delightful, so that no doctors can gain a 
 living, and the one resident surgeon depends on his 
 salary from a tax on spirits and on the tolls of the 
 bridge Oroya [O-ro-ee'-ah]. — Ibid., p. 5 " 
 
 Papa. — It was in this delightful place where Nephi 
 halted with his portion of the people and began a 
 settlement. No wonder that they called it the prom- 
 ised land and the land blessed above all others. We 
 can no longer wonder that Moses, when viewing 
 Joseph's land by the spirit of inspiration, described 
 it as we learned in our former talk. And here with 
 gratitude in their hearts to Almighty God they built, 
 to him who had led them thus far upon their journey, 
 
146 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 a temple, and dedicated to his service the first monu- 
 ment to him on this continent. Mr. Baldwin describes 
 the ruins in and around Lake Titicaca on pages 227 
 to 231. You may read again, Maude: 
 
 Maude, — '*At Lake Titicaca some of the more 
 important remains are on the islands. On Titicaca 
 Island are the ruins of a great edifice described as *a 
 palace or temple.' Remains of other structures exist, 
 but their ruins are old, much older than the time of 
 the Incas. . . . They were all built of hewn stone, 
 and had doors and windows, with posts, sills, and 
 thresholds of stone, the doorways being narrower 
 above than below. On the island of Coati [Ko'-ah- 
 tee] there are remarkable ruins. The largest build- 
 ing here is also described as *a palace or temple,' 
 although it may have been something else. It was 
 not high, but very large in extent. It stood around 
 three sides of a parallelogram, with some peculiarities 
 of construction connected with the ends or wings. 
 Making allowance for the absence of the pyramidal 
 foundations, it has more resemblance to some of the 
 great constructions in Central America than to any- 
 thing peculiar to the later periods of Peruvian archi- 
 tecture. . . . The antiquities on the island and shores 
 of this lake need to be more completely explored and 
 described, and probably interesting discoveries could 
 be made at some point by means of well-directed 
 excavations." 
 
 Papa. — There is nothing said in the Book of Mor- 
 mon about this temple having been built on an island, 
 neither by a lake; but under another topic, which we 
 shall take up presently, we will learn that great 
 changes took place in the face of the land and that 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 147 
 
 water came up where there had previously been dry- 
 land, hence we would not be surprised to see temples 
 that had been built upon the elevations of the land 
 now surrounded by water. The principal point is 
 that where the Book of Mormon says they built a 
 temple, there we find the ruins of one. There are 
 quite a number of other temples mentioned in the 
 Book of Mormon, but we find only one, I think, 
 minutely described. There was one situated in the 
 land of Zarahemla, to which Mosiah was sent to 
 invite the people to hear his father. King Benjamin, 
 give them instruction, as described in the first of the 
 Book of Mosiah. The Nephites had been driven 
 northward by the Lamanites until they had joined 
 the people who had oome out of Jerusalem with 
 Zedekiah's son. About three or four centuries had 
 passed away since the building of the temple we have 
 just read about. The land of Nephi had been in the 
 possession of the Lamanites, and in fact everything 
 south of the land of Zarahemla, as you see here on 
 this large wall map. That goodly land had become 
 dear to them not only because of its wonderful fruit - 
 fulness but because of its associations, so a number of 
 men under the leadership of a man named Zeniff went 
 south thinking to obtain the land again. We will let 
 Zeniff tell this in his own language, and Harry may 
 read it from Mosiah 6 : 6-11 : 
 
 Harry. — **And I went in unto the king, and he 
 covenanted with me, that I might possess the land 
 of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom. And he 
 also qommanded that his people should depart out of 
 the land, and I and my people went into the land, 
 that we might possess it. And we began to build 
 
148 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 buildings, and to repair the walls of the city, yea, 
 even the walls of the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the 
 city of Shilom. And we began to till the ground, 
 yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of 
 corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, 
 and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of 
 fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in 
 the land. Now, it was the cunning and the crafti- 
 ness of King Laman, to bring my people into bond- 
 age, that he yielded up the land, that we might 
 possess it. Therefore, it came to pass that after we 
 had dwelt in the land for the space of twelve years, 
 that King Laman began to grow uneasy, lest by any 
 means my people should wax strong in the land, and 
 that they could not overpower them and bring them 
 into bondage." 
 
 Papa. — The lands of Lehi-Nephi and Shilom, you 
 see by referring to the map, were situated in that 
 very fertile land we read about a while ago. This 
 fear of King Laman that they would get too strong 
 for him caused him to raise an army and go up and 
 undertake to bring them into subjection, but they 
 defeated him in battle. And Zeniff set men to guard 
 the land and to keep the Lamanites out. Verse 24 
 says they remained in peaceful possession of the 
 land for twenty-two years, when King Laman died 
 and his son began to reign in his stead. The son 
 then undertook to conquer them, and in a great 
 battle where Zeniff had to arm all the old and the 
 young men that were able to bear arms, they 
 defeated the son even as they had the father. These 
 battles were won because they trusted in God. But 
 Zeniff died, and before his death he conferred his 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 149 
 
 kingdom upon one of his sons. This son was the 
 King Noah that we read about in our other conver- 
 sation, who practiced polygamy and did not walk in 
 the ways of his father and did not keep the com- 
 mandments of God. Harry may read now from his 
 history as found in Mosiah 7 : 1-16 : 
 
 Harry, — **And now it came to pass that Zeniff con- 
 ferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons: 
 therefore Noah began to reign in his stead ; and he 
 did not walk in the ways of his father. For behold, 
 he did not keep the commandments of God, but he 
 did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he 
 had many wives and concubines. And did cause his 
 people to commit sin, and do that which was abomi- 
 nable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did 
 commit whoredoms, and all manner of wickedness. 
 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they pos- 
 sessed ; a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, 
 and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and 
 of their brass and their iron ; and a fifth part of their 
 fatlings; and also, a fifth part of all their grain. 
 And all this did he take to support himself, and his 
 wives, and his concubines, and also his priests, and 
 their wives, and their concubines: thus he had 
 changed the affairs of the kingdom. For he put 
 down all the priests that had been consecrated by his 
 father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such 
 as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts. Yea, 
 and thus they were supported in their laziness, and 
 in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the 
 taxes which King Noah had put upon his people; 
 thus did the people labor exceedingly, to support 
 iniquity. Yea, and they also became idolatrous, 
 
150 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 because they were deceived by the vain and flatter- 
 ing words of the king and priests : for they did speak 
 flattering things unto them. And it came to pass 
 that King Noah built many elegant and spacious 
 buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of 
 wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, 
 and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, 
 and of copper; and he also built him a spacious 
 palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of 
 which was of fine wood, and was ornamented with 
 gold, and silver, and with precious things. And he 
 also caused that his workmen should work all manner 
 of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine 
 wood, and of copper, and of brass; and the seats 
 which were set apart for the high priests, which were 
 above all the other seats, he did ornament with pure 
 gold : and he caused a breastwork to be built before 
 them, that they might rest their bodies and their arms 
 upon, while they should speak lying and vain words 
 to his people. And it came to pass that he built a 
 tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even 
 so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and 
 overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of 
 Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; 
 and he could even look over all the land round about. 
 And it came to pass that he caused many buildings to 
 be built in the land of Shilom : and he caused a great 
 tower to be built on the hill north of the land Shilom, 
 which had been a resort for the children of Nephi, at 
 the time they fled out of the land; and thus he did do 
 with the riches which he obtained by the taxation of 
 his people. And it came to pass that he placed his 
 heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 151 
 
 living with his wives and his concubines; and so did 
 also his priests spend their time with harlots. And it 
 came to pass that he planted vineyards round about 
 in the land: and he built wine-presses, and made 
 wine in abundance; and therefore he became a wine- 
 bibber, and also his people." 
 
 Papa, — I have had Harry read this lengthy 
 description of King Noah's reign, not only to call 
 attention to the "palaces," and "temples," and other 
 "large buildings" he built, but to show the contrast 
 between his reign and .his father's.' His father was 
 weak in numbers but strong in his trust in God, 
 while Noah was strong in numbers but lacking in 
 those things that make men successful in this life, 
 and that is righteousness. He was prospered for a 
 time and became exceedingly rich, but his success 
 was not lasting, for history tells us that he was soon 
 overthrown and his magnificent palaces and temples 
 were given into the hands of his enemies. But do we 
 find anything in the ruins in this vicinity that would 
 justify us in believeing that there had ever been such 
 buildings and riches as are here described? In the 
 narrative just read by Harry, two buildings are 
 particularly mentioned, among many. He built a 
 "spacious palace" and also a "temple." You may 
 read, Maude, from Mr. Baldwin's book, pages 237 
 to 240: 
 
 Maude. — "The ruins known as *the Palaces of 
 Gran-Chimu' [Grahn-tchee-moo] are situated in the 
 northwestern part of Peru, near Truxillo [Troox-eel'- 
 leo]. Here, in the time of the first Incas, was an 
 independent state, which was subjugated by the 
 Inca set down in the list of Montesinos fMon-ta- 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 8ee-no8'] as the grandfather of Huayna Capao 
 [Oo-ah-ee-nah Kah-pak], about a century before 
 the Spaniards arrived. For what is known of these 
 ruins we are chiefly indebted to Mariano Rivero 
 [Mah-ree-ah'-no Ree-va'-ro], director of the national 
 museum at Lima. They cover a space of three quar- 
 ters of a league, without including the walled squares 
 found on every side. The chief objects of interest 
 are the remains of two great edifices called palaces. 
 *These palaces are immense areas surrounded by 
 high walls of brick, the walls being now ten or twelve 
 yards high and six feet thick at the base.' There 
 was in each case another wall exterior to this. 
 Within the palace walls were squares and dwellings, 
 with narrow passages between them, and the walls 
 are decorated. In the largest palace are the remains 
 of a great reservoir for water, which was brought to 
 it by subterranean aqueducts from the River Moohe 
 [Mo'-tcha], two miles distant. Outside of the 
 inclosures of these palaces are the remains of a 
 vast number of buildings, which indicate that the 
 city contained a great population. The Spaniards 
 took vast quantities of gold from the huacas [oo-ah- 
 kahs'] or tombs at this place. The amount taken 
 from a single tomb in the years 1566 and 1592 was 
 officially estimated at nearly a million dollars. 
 Remarkable ruins exist at Cuelap [Koo'-a-lap], in 
 Northern Peru. *They consist of a wall of wrought 
 stones thirty -six hundred feet long, five hundred 
 and sixty feet broad, one hundred and fifty feet 
 high, constituting a solid mass with a level sum- 
 mit.' Probably the interior was made of earth. 
 On this mass was another, six hundred feet long, 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 153 
 
 five hundred feet broad, and one hundred and 
 fifty feet high. In this, and also in the lower 
 structure, there are many rooms made of wrought 
 stone, in which are a great number of niches or cells 
 one or two yards deep, which were used as tombs. 
 Other old structures exist in that neighborhood. 
 Farther south, at Huanuco el Viego [Oo-ahn-oo'-ko 
 al Vee-a-go], or Old Huanuco [Oo-ahn-oo'-ko], are 
 two peculiar edifices and a terrace, and near them 
 the faded traces of a large town. The two edifices 
 were built of a composition of pebbles and clay, 
 faced with hewn stone. One of them is called the 
 *Lookout,' but it is impossible to discover the pur- 
 pose for which it was built. The interior of the other 
 is crossed by six walls, in each of which is a gate- 
 way, the outer one being finely finished, and show- 
 ing a sculptured animal on each of the upper 
 corners. It has a large court, and rooms made of 
 cut stones. Connected with this structure was a 
 well-built aqueduct." 
 
 Papa. — This is certainly very strong evidence that 
 this was the seat of that government established by 
 Zeniff and which came to grief under the wicked 
 reign of his son Noah. We have already seen how 
 Zeniff instructed his people in agriculture. Now, 
 Harry, I wish you to read verses 24 to 26 of Mosiah, 
 chapter 6 : 
 
 Harry, — **And it came to pass that we did inherit 
 the land of our fathers, for many years; yea, for the 
 space of twenty and two years. And I did cause that 
 the men should till the ground, and raise all manner 
 of grain, and all manner of fruit, of every kind. And 
 I did cause that the women should spin, and toil, and 
 
154 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 work; and work all manner of fine linen; yea, and 
 cloth of every kind, that we might clothe our naked- 
 ness; and thus we did prosper in the land; thus we 
 did have continual peace in the land, for the space of 
 twenty and two years." 
 
 Papa. — In this Zeniff only repeated what Nephi 
 had done before him in the same region, and it had 
 no doubt been the policy of every righteous king who 
 had ruled this land for the four hundred years since 
 its occupancy, ^^verywhere throughout the Book of 
 Mormon it tells of the large amounts of gold and 
 silver the people had, and most of it was in the region 
 that we are talking about now. After Christ came 
 they became converted to the gospel and became one 
 people and remained so for nearly two hundred 
 years. You may read again, Maude, from Mr. 
 Baldwin, pages 247 to 251: 
 
 Maude. — *'In some respects the Peruvian civiliza- 
 tion was developed to such a degree as challenged 
 admiration. The Peruvians were highly skilled in 
 agriculture and in some kinds of manufactures. No 
 people ever had a more efficient system of industry. 
 This created their wealth and made possible their 
 great public works. All accounts of the country at 
 the time of the Conquest agree in the statement that 
 they cultivated the soil in a very admirable way and 
 with remarkable success, using aqueducts for irriga- 
 tion, and employing guano as one of their most 
 important fertilizers. Europeans learned from them 
 the value of this fertilizer, and its name, guano, is 
 Peruvian. The remains of their works show what 
 they were as builders. Their skill in cutting stone 
 and their wonderful masonry can be seen and 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 155 
 
 admired by modern builders in what is left of their 
 aqueducts, their roads, their temples, and their other 
 great edifices. They had great proficiency in the arts 
 of spinning, weaving, and dyeing. For their cloth 
 they used cotton and the wool of four varieties of the 
 llama, that of the vicuiia [vee-koo-nee-ah] being 
 the finest. Some of their cloth had interwoven 
 designs and ornaments very skillfully executed. 
 Many of their fabrics had rare excellence in the eyes 
 of the Spaniards. Garcilasso [-Gahr-thee-lahs'-so] 
 says, *The coverings of the beds were blankets and 
 friezes of the wool of the vicuiia which is so fine and 
 so much prized that, among other precious things 
 from that land, they have been brought for the bed 
 of Don Philip II.' Of their dyes, this account is 
 given in the work of Rivero [Ree-va'-ro] and Von 
 Tschudi: 'They possessed the secret of fixing the 
 dye of all colors, flesh-color, yellow, gray, blue, 
 green, black, etc., so firmly in the thread, or in the 
 cloth already woven, that they never faded during 
 the lapse of ages, even when exposed to the air or 
 buried (in tombs) under ground. Only the cotton 
 became slightly discolored, while the woolen fabrics 
 preserved their primitive luster. It is a circumstance 
 worth remarking that chemical analyses made of pieces 
 of cloth of all the different dyes prove that the Peru- 
 vians extracted all their colors from the vegetable 
 and none from the mineral kingdom. In fact, the 
 natives of the Peruvian Mountains now use plants 
 unknown to Europeans, producing from them bright 
 and lasting colors.' They had great skill in the 
 art of working metals, especially gold and silver. 
 Besides these precious metals, they had copper, tin, 
 
156 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 lead, and quicksilver. . . . Iron was unknown to 
 them in the time of the Incas, although some main- 
 tain that they had it in the previous ages, to which 
 belonged the ruins at Lake Titicaca [Tee-tee-kah'- 
 kah]. Iron ore was and still is very abundant in 
 Peru. It is impossible to conceive how the Peru- 
 vians were able to cut and work stone in such a mas- 
 terly way, or to construct their great roads and aque- 
 ducts without the use of iron tools. Some of the 
 languages of the country, and perhaps all, had 
 names for iron; in official Peruvian it was called 
 quillay, and in the old Chilian tongue panilic. 'It is 
 remarkable,' observes Molina, *that iron, which has 
 been thought unknown to the ancient Americans, 
 has particular names in some of their tongues.' It is 
 not easy to understand why they had names for this 
 metal, if they never at any time had knowledge of 
 the metal itself. In the Mercurio Peruano, tome i, 
 page 201, 1791, it is stated that, anciently, the Peru- 
 vian sovereigns 'worked magnificent mines, at Anco- 
 riames [Ahn-ko-ree-ah-mas], on the west shore of 
 Lake Titicaca' ; but I can not give the evidence used 
 in support of this statement. Their goldsmiths and 
 silversmiths had attained very great proficiency. 
 They could melt the metals in furnaces, cast them in 
 molds made of clay and gypsum, hammer their work 
 with remarkable dexterity, inlay it, and solder it with 
 great perfection. The gold and silver work of these 
 artists was extremely abundant in the country at the 
 time of the Conquest, but Spanish greed had it all 
 melted for coinage. It was with articles of this gold- 
 work that the Inca Atahuallpa [Ah-tah-oo-ahl-lee'- 
 pah] filled a room in his vain endeavor to purchase 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 157 
 
 release from captivity. One of the old chroniclers 
 mentions *statuary, jars, vases, and every species of 
 vessels, all of fine gold.' Describing one of the 
 palaces, he said: *They had an artificial garden, 
 the soil of which was made of small pieces of fine 
 gold, and was artificially sowed with different kinds 
 of maize which were of gold, their stems, leaves, and 
 ears. Besides this, they had more than twenty sheep 
 (llamas), with their lambs, attended by shepherds, 
 all made of gold.' This may be the same artificial 
 garden which was mentioned by Francisco Lopez de 
 Gomara [Frahn-thees-ko Lo-path da Go-mah'-rah], 
 who places it on *an island near Puna [Poo-nah].' 
 Similar gardens of gold are mentioned by others. It 
 is believed that a large quantity of Peruvian gold- 
 work was thrown into Lake Titicaoa to keep it from 
 the Spanish robbers. In a description of one lot of 
 golden articles sent to Spain in 1534 by Pizarro, 
 there is mention of *four llamas, ten statues of 
 women of full size, and a cistern of gold so curious 
 that it incited the wonder of all.' Nothing is more 
 constantly mentioned by the old Spanish chroniclers 
 than the vast abundance of gold in Peru. It was 
 more common than any other metal. Temples and 
 palaces were covered with it, and it was very beauti- 
 fully wrought into ornaments, temple furniture, arti- 
 cles for household use, and imitations of almost every 
 object in nature. In the course of twenty-five years 
 after the Conquest, the Spaniards sent from Peru 
 to Spain more than four hundred million ducats' 
 (eight hundred million dollars) worth of gold, all or 
 nearly all of it having been taken from the subju- 
 gated Peruvians as * booty.' " 
 
168 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 Papa. — One objection that has been made against 
 the Book of Mormon is that it speaks of their having 
 the use of iron, but this shows that they did have it, 
 and that the ancient inhabitants of the country were 
 very expert in agriculture, making of cloth, working 
 metals, building, and so forth ; for while these people 
 described by Mr. Baldwin were not what we would 
 call the Nephites, yet, while they were quite expert, 
 the remains and old ruins show that the ancient 
 people were much more so. There is another great 
 work of this people that is mentioned briefly in the 
 book of Nephi, chapter 3, verse 7. This was after 
 the conquering of the robbers that were called the 
 Gadianton robbers, and the whole country was enjoy- 
 ing a period of peace. Harry, you may read the 
 verse : 
 
 Harry. — "And it came to pass that there were 
 many cities built anew, and there were many old 
 cities repaired, and there were many highways cast 
 up, and many roads made, which led from city to 
 city, and from land to land, and from place to place." 
 
 Papa. — The roads spoken of are probably not the 
 same described by Mr. Baldwin that I will ask Maude 
 to read about presently, as these roads were evidently 
 built farther north and it did not take them so long to 
 build them as it did those which Mr. Baldwin tells 
 about, but it shows that they knew the value of good 
 roads and built them. Maude, you may read from 
 Mr. Baldwin, j)ages 243 to 246: 
 
 Maude. — ^''Nothing in ancient Peru was more 
 remarkable than the public roads. No ancient peo- 
 ple has left traces of works more astonishing than 
 these, so vast was their extent, and so great the skill 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 159 
 
 and labor required to construct them. One of these 
 roads ran along the mountains through the whole 
 length of the empire, from Quito [Kee'-to] to Chili. 
 Another, starting from this at Cuzco [Koos'-ko], 
 went down to the coast and extended northward to 
 the equator. These roads were built on beds or *deep 
 understructures' of masonry. The width of the road- 
 ways varied from twenty to twenty -five feet, and 
 they were made level and smooth by paving, and in 
 some places by a sort of macadamizing with pulver- 
 ized stone mixed with lime and bituminous cement. 
 This cement was used in all the masonry. On each 
 side of the roadway was *a very strong wall more 
 than a fathom in thickness.' These roads went over 
 marshes, rivers, and great chasms of the sierras 
 [see-ar'-rahs], and through rocky precipices and 
 mountain sides. The great road passing along the 
 mountains was a marvelous work. In many places 
 its way was cut through rock for leagues. Great 
 ravines were filled up with solid masonry. Rivers 
 were crossed by means of a curious kind of suspen- 
 sion bridges, and no obstruction was encountered 
 which the builders did not overcome. The builders 
 of our Pacific Railroad, with their superior engineer- 
 ing skill and mechanical appliances, might reason- 
 ably shrink from the cost and the difficulties of such 
 a work as this. Extending from one degree north of 
 Quito to Cuzco, and from Cuzco to Chili, it was quite 
 as long as the two Pacific Railroads, and its wild route 
 among the mountains was far more difficult. Sar- 
 miento [Sahr-mee-an'-to], describing it, said, *It 
 seems to me that if the emperor (Charles V) should 
 see fit to order the construction of another road like 
 
t^ BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 that which leads from Quito to Cuzco, or that which 
 from Cuzco goes toward Chili, I certainly think he 
 would not be able to make it, with all his power.' 
 Humboldt examined some of the remains of this road, 
 and described as follows a portion of it seen in a pass 
 of the Andes, between Mansi and Loxa : *Our eyes 
 rested continually on superb remains of a paved road 
 of the Incas. The roadway, paved with well-cut, 
 dark porphyritic stone, was twenty feet wide, and 
 rested on deep foundations. This road was mar- 
 velous. None of the Roman roads I have seen in 
 Italy, in the South of France, or in Spain, appeared 
 to me more imposing than this work of the ancient 
 Peruvians.' He saw remains of several other shorter 
 roads which were built in the same way, some of 
 them between Loxa and the River Amazon. Along 
 these roads at equal distances were edifices,. a kind of 
 caravanseras, built of hewn stone, for the accom- 
 modation of travelers. These great works were 
 described by every Spanish writer on Peru, and in 
 some accounts of them we find suggestions in regard 
 to their history. They are called * roads of the Incas,* 
 but they were probably much older than the time of 
 these rulers. The mountain road running toward 
 Quito was much older than the Inca Huayna Capac 
 [Oo-ah-ee'-nah Kah-pak], to whom it has sometimes 
 been attributed. It is stated that when he started by 
 this route to invade the Quitus [Kee'-toos], the road 
 was so bad that he *found great difficulties in the 
 passage.' It was then an old road, much out oi 
 repair, and he immediately ordered the necessary 
 reconstructions. Gomara [Go-mah'-rah] says, *Hu» 
 ayna Capao restored, enlarged, and completed these 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 161 
 
 roads, but he did not build them, as some pretend.' 
 These great artificial highways were broken up and 
 made useless at the time of the Conquest, and the 
 subsequent barbarous rule of the Spaniards allowed 
 them to go to decay. Now only broken remains of 
 them exist to show their former character." 
 
 Papa. — This description of the works of these peo- 
 ple is certainly wonderful, and it seems as though it 
 would be almost impossible they could have done all 
 this, but I will ask Harry to read from chapter 1 of 
 the book of Nephi, pages 424 and 425, verses 1 to 8, 
 also verses 18 and 19 : 
 
 Harry. — *'And it came to pass that the thirty and 
 fourth year passed away, and also the thirty and 
 fifth, and behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a 
 church of Christ in all the lands round about. And 
 as many as did come unto them, and did truly repent 
 of their sins, were baptized in the name of Jesus ; and 
 they did also receive the Holy Ghost. And it came 
 to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were 
 all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the 
 land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were 
 no contentions and disputations among them, and 
 every man did deal justly one with another ; and they 
 had all things common among them, therefore there 
 were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were 
 all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 
 And it came to pass that the thirty and seventh year 
 passed away also, and there still continued to be 
 peace in the land. And there were great and marvel- 
 ous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, inso- 
 much that they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, 
 and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive 
 
162 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of 
 miracles did they work among the children of men ; 
 and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in 
 the name of Jesus. And thus did the thirty and 
 eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, 
 and the forty and first, and the forty and second; 
 yea, even until forty and nine years had passed 
 away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and 
 second; yea, even until fifty and nine years had 
 passed away; and the Lord did prosper them exceed- 
 ingly, in the land: yea, insomuch that they did fill 
 cities again where there had been cities burned; yea, 
 even that great city Zarahemla did they cause to be 
 built again. But there were many cities which had 
 been sunk, and waters came up in the stead thereof; 
 therefore these cities could not be renewed. And 
 now behold it came to pass that the people of Nephi 
 did wax strong, and did multiply exceeding fast, and 
 became an exceeding fair and delightsome people." 
 "And it came to pass that two hundred years had 
 passed away, and the second generation had all 
 passed away save it were a few. And now I, Mor- 
 mon, would that ye should know that the people had 
 multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all 
 the face of the land, and that they had become 
 exceeding rich, because of their prosperity in 
 Christ." 
 
 Papa, — It was probably during this period of 
 peace and prosperity that these great roads w:ere 
 built and some of these wonderful buildings erected, 
 especially those which we read about containing 
 those very large stones. The peace spoken of here 
 came to them after Christ came to this land and gave 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 163 
 
 them the gospel and established his church among 
 them. This peaceful period was about one hundred 
 and sixty -four years in duration and was sufficiently 
 long for them, working in unison as they did, to build 
 all these wonderful buildings, and it is quite probable 
 that their chief effort would be made in that land 
 which was called by them the land of "our fathers." 
 It is wonderful, however, how completely the Book 
 of Mormon story is corroborated in these discoveries. 
 Where it says temples, watch-towers, and cities were 
 built, there we find the remains of temples, palaces, 
 "lookouts," and ruined cities. "Where it says the 
 people became "exceedingly rich," there was found 
 abundance of riches in the shape of gold and silver 
 in every form. Just as described in Mosiah seventh 
 chapter, we find the walls of their temples inlaid with 
 gold and silver, and the temple furniture made of 
 these precious metals. 
 
 Ernest. — But, papa, you say that the first temple 
 was built near Lake Titicaca evidently, and around 
 this country we find wonderful riches in gold and 
 silver and iron, and so forth, and yet Nephi says 
 he could not build the temple like Solomon's because 
 of the lack of these things, and says they were 
 not to be found in the land. How do you explain 
 that? 
 
 Papa. — ^Up to that time it was without doubt true. 
 They had been here but a short time and they had 
 not discovered and worked the mines that they 
 afterwards did, and hence Nephi was right in his 
 statement. We will have to go back a little in our 
 history of these people now, and take up another 
 phase or part of the story. You noticed in the last 
 
164 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 extract Harry read, that it spoke of ruined cities and 
 cities which had been sunk and water came up in 
 their stead. The history says that at the time Christ 
 was crucified at Jerusalem a great convulsion shook 
 the earth on this continent and the whole face of the 
 land was changed. But we will let Harry read about 
 it in the language of the Book of Mormon, book of 
 Nephi, chapter 4, verses 4 to 9: 
 
 Harry. — "And it came to pass in the thirty and 
 fourth year, in the first month, in the fourth day of 
 the month, there arose a great storm, such an one 
 as never had been known in all the land; and there 
 was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was 
 terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole 
 earth as if it was about to divide asunder; and there 
 were exceeding sharp lightnings, such as never had 
 been known in all the land. And the city of Zara- 
 hemla did take fire; and the city of Moroni did sink 
 into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants 
 thereof were drowned; and the earth was carried up 
 upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the 
 city thereof, there became a great mountain; and 
 there was a great and terrible destruction in the land 
 southward. But behold, there was a more great and 
 terrible destruction in the land northward: for 
 behold, the whole face of the land was changed, 
 because of the tempest, and the whirlwinds, and the 
 thunderings, and the lightnings, and the exceeding 
 great quaking of the whole earth; and the highways 
 were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and 
 many smooth places became rough, and many great 
 and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 165 
 
 and many were shook till the buildings thereof had 
 fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were 
 slain, and the places were left desolate; and there 
 were some cities which remained; but the damage 
 thereof was exceeding great, and there were many in 
 them who were slain; and there were some who were 
 carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they 
 went, no man knoweth, save they know that they 
 were carried away; and thus the face of the whole 
 earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and 
 the thundering, and the lightnings, and the quaking 
 of the earth. And behold, the rocks were rent in 
 twain; they were broken up upon the face of the 
 whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken 
 fragments, and in seams, and in cracks, upon all the 
 face of the land. And it came to pass that when the 
 thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and 
 the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease 
 ^for behold, they did last for about the space of 
 three hours; and it was said by some that the time 
 was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terri- 
 ble things were done in about the space of three 
 hours; and then behold, there was darkness upon the 
 face of the land. And it came to pass that there was 
 thick darkness upon all the face of the land, inso- 
 much that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen, 
 could feel the vapor of darkness ; and there could be 
 no light, because of the darkness; neither candles, 
 neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled 
 with their fine and exceeding dry wood, so that there 
 could not be any light at all ; and there was not any 
 light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun 
 nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the 
 
166 BOOK OF MORMON TALKb 
 
 mists of darkness which were upon the face of the 
 land." 
 
 Papa. — They had begun to count their time from 
 the birth of Christ. There had a Lamanite prophet 
 named Samuel prophesied that when Christ should 
 be born in Jerusalem there would be a sign given to 
 the people here. That sign was that there would be 
 no night, or that the night before he should be born 
 would be light. This had come to pass and they 
 began at that time to count their years. For that 
 reason the story read here by Harry says it was in 
 the thirty -fourth year that this great storm, earth- 
 quake, and so forth, occurred. There is much more 
 connected with the story, but I have had Harry read 
 sufficient to show what occurred. The darkness 
 lasted three days, and immediately after its disper- 
 sion Christ appeared to them, gave his gospel to 
 them, and as we have already seen, but two years 
 passed away until all had been converted. Now we 
 will turn again to the discoveries of the scientific men 
 and the traditions and see if there is any evidence 
 outside of the Book of Mormon of this wonderful 
 catastrophe. Many theories have been advanced to 
 account for this old civilization. Among others a 
 man named Ignatius Donnelly has advanced what 
 he calls the theory of the *'Lost Atlantis." He 
 claims that at one time there was a land known as 
 Atlantis which extended from South or Central 
 America nearly across the Atlantic Ocean, and that 
 there was only a narrow strait that separated it from 
 Europe. Some people got across this narrow strait 
 or sea and crossed on this Atlantis to America. 
 That after they had inhabited this country of Atlantis 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 167 
 
 and spread from there into America, this land of 
 Atlantis was sunk in the sea and that only the tops 
 of its mountains remained above the water, and they 
 form what we know as the West Indies Islands. His 
 theory is based on a tradition that is found among 
 the people here of a great catastrophe that happened 
 in the ages past. Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Short and 
 others mention this tradition, and we will have them 
 read now and see how nicely they agree with what 
 the Book of Mormon says. Maude, you may begin 
 by reading from Baldwin, page 176: 
 
 Maude. — "In the first place, Brasseur de Bour- 
 bourg claims that there is in the old Central Ameri- 
 can books a constant tradition of an immense 
 catastrophe of the character supposed; that this 
 tradition existed everywhere among the people when 
 they first became known to Europeans; and that 
 recollections of the catastrophe were preserved in 
 some of their festivals, especially in one celebrated 
 in the month of Izcalli, which was instituted to com- 
 memorate this frightful destruction of land and 
 people, and in which *princes and people humbled 
 themselves before the divinity, and besought Him to 
 withhold a return of such terrible calamities.' This 
 tradition affirms that a part of the continent extend- 
 ing into the Atlantic was destroyed in the manner 
 supposed, and appears to indicate that the destruc- 
 tion was accomplished by a succession of frightful 
 convulsions. Three are constantly mentioned, and 
 sometimes there is mention of one or two others. 
 *The land was shaken by frightful earthquakes, and 
 the waves of the sea combined with volcanic fires to 
 overwhelm and engulf it.* Each convulsion swept 
 
168 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 away portions of the land, until the whole dis- 
 appeared, leaving the line of the coast as it is now. 
 Most of the inhabitants, overtaken amid their regular 
 employments, were destroyed; but some escaped in 
 ships, and some fled for safety to the summits of 
 high mountains, or to portions of the land which, for 
 the time, escaped immediate destruction." 
 
 Papa. — Accepting the story of the Book of Mor- 
 mon as true, this tradition has preserved the facts 
 remarkably well. You know that I have been 
 through the Rocky Mountains a number of times, 
 and I have seen evidence everywhere of this catas- 
 trophe, and nothing could better describe the condi- 
 tion of the rocks there than the language used in the 
 Book of Mormon in verse 7, which Harry has read : 
 "And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were 
 broken up upon the face of the whole earth, inso- 
 much that they were found in broken fragments, 
 and in seams, and in cracks, upon the face of the 
 land." In places in the mountains it looks like some 
 great power had tipped the rocks over so they almost 
 stand on edge. In other places great rocks seem to 
 have been hurled by some giant's hand down the 
 side of the mountain, and in other places it looks as 
 though the rocks had been crushed by some mighty 
 power and the fragments hurled down the mountain 
 until it looks like a great slide composed of small 
 fragments of rock. This rock is used by the rail- 
 roads for ballast and by the cities in macadamizing 
 the streets. A writer dating his communication at 
 Denver, May 25, and published in the Chicago Rec- 
 ord of May 26, 1900, mentions the evidences of this 
 
mm^i. 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 169 
 
 great earthquake. Ethel, you may read the account 
 from my scrapbook, page 167 : 
 
 Ethel. — **In my opinion the CHff- dwellers volun- 
 tarily left their residences and changed their nature 
 and their mode of living for the same reason that 
 Pompeii and Herculaneum were abandoned, and for 
 the same reason that Sodom, Gomorrah, and other 
 cities of the Dead Sea were deserted by their terror- 
 stricken inhabitants. Some powerful cataclysm of 
 nature operated with irresistible force on superstitious 
 natures. The most casual inspection will convince 
 one that since those dwellings in the cliffs were con- 
 structed a terrible earthquake has shaken that 
 region. In some places the caves have been split 
 open, while rocks as large as houses and bearing 
 marks of human workmanship lie far below, where 
 they could not have been hurled by the hands of 
 men. In some places, great rooks, falling from 
 above, have lodged on the terraces and tipped back 
 into the openings, for ever closing all egress and 
 ingress. Along the whole front of the cliffs lie rocks, 
 great and small, by the thousands of tons. Volcanic 
 cones and lava streams not far away are mute evi- 
 dences of the forces that caused this cataclysm. 
 The greatest earthquake of modern times must have 
 been a mere tremble in comparison with the mighty 
 force that tumbled these great rocks about in such 
 profusion and that created such destruction in the 
 homes of the Cliff-dwellers. It must have been 
 thought that the gods had cursed their place of 
 abode, and the terror-stricken Cliff- dwellers fled to 
 the plain. To this day the Pueblos [Poo-a^-blos] 
 shun the place of the accursed. None of them can 
 
170 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 be persuaded to enter one of those dwellings. This 
 feeling of terror can be explained only as an inher- 
 itance from the Cliff-dwellers, and to my mind is 
 additional proof that the Pueblos of the present day 
 are the survivors of this stricken ti-ibe that once 
 took up its abode in the cliffs." 
 
 Papa. — This is the opinion of Thomas J. Diven, 
 whom this correspondent of the Chicago Record 
 designates as an **eminent archaeologist." We will 
 read again from him presently. Let us see first what 
 the Book of Mormon says about these Cliff-dwellers. 
 All through the history of these people there is men- 
 tion of bands of robbers which were formed, and it is 
 said they dwelt in the mountains and a great deal of 
 difficulty was experienced in trying to dislodge them 
 from their strongholds. Harry, you may read again 
 from the book of Helaman, chapter 4, verses 30 
 and 31: 
 
 Harry. — **And it came to pass that in the eightieth 
 year of the reign of the Judges over the people of 
 Nephi, there were a certain number of the dissenters 
 from the people of Nephi, who had some years before 
 gone over unto the Lamanites, and took upon them- 
 selves the name of Lamanites; and also, a certain 
 number who were real descendants of the Lamanites, 
 being stirred up to anger by them, or by those dis- 
 senters, therefore they commenced a war with their 
 brethren. And they did commit murder and plun- 
 der; and then they would retreat back into the 
 mountains, and into the wilderness and secret places, 
 hiding themselves that they could not be discovered, 
 receiving daily an addition to their numbers, inso- 
 much as there were dissenters that went forth unto 
 
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BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 171 
 
 them ; and thus in time, yea, even in the space of not 
 many years, they became an exceeding great band 
 of robbers; and they did search out all the secret 
 plans of Gadianton ; and thus they became robbers 
 of Gadianton." 
 
 Papa. — In several other places it speaks of these 
 robbers who lived in the mountains and would come 
 out and steal and murder. On pages 376 and 378 it 
 tells of these robbers being driven back to their 
 mountain homes and secret places. In the remains 
 of these Cliff-dwellers we evidently have the homes 
 of these robbers. They were so strongly fortified in 
 their places of retreat that they could not be defeated 
 until, as related in the second chapter of the Book of 
 Nephi, they were enticed from their strongholds and 
 finally by getting between them and the mountains, 
 the Nephites destroyed them. Some have thought 
 that these Cliff-dwellers were very ancient inhabitants 
 of this country, but recently the scientific men, some 
 of them at least, have concluded that they were the 
 ancestors of the Pueblo Indians. Ethel, you may 
 read again from my scrap-book and from that same 
 clipping the opinions of at least two archaeologists on 
 this question : 
 
 Ethel. — **At present, scientists do not know whether 
 Cliff-dwellers belong to the bronze age or to the stone 
 age. Doctor Bennett is inclined to think that research 
 will prove that the Cliff-dwellers were the ancestors 
 of the Pueblo Indians and that they were connected 
 with the Mound-builders. Thomas J. Diven, an emi- 
 nent archesologist who has returned from an inspec- 
 tion of the San Clara cliff- dwellings, near Santa Fe, 
 New Mexico, declares that the people who inhabited 
 
172 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 the strange dwellings were the ancestors of the 
 Pueblo Indians, and that they can not be regarded 
 as a lost race. 'History knows of no extinct people,' 
 says Professor Diven. 'Absorption by a conqueror 
 is not extinction. The Cliff-dwellers were the ances- 
 tors of the Pueblos, and were driven from their 
 strange dwellings by some great demonstration of 
 nature that was as terrible as the eruption of Vesu- 
 vius when Pompeii was wiped out of existence. 
 Everything proves this theory of abandonment. The 
 Pueblo metates or grinding-stones, their fireplaces, 
 their idols and their pottery — all are similar in design 
 and manufacture to those left in the cliff -dwellings. 
 The beams that now support the roofs of the adobe 
 huts of the Pueblos are precisely similar to the 
 charred beams thrown up by the excavation made in 
 the San Clara ruins by the Smithsonian Institution 
 officials. Their adobe dwellings are built in terraces, 
 receding with every story and similar in design to 
 the terraced rook cliffs that the Cliff-dwellers left 
 behind." 
 
 Papa. — The professor's conclusion substantially 
 agrees with the account given in the Book of Mor- 
 mon. It says that the Cliff-dwellers were of the same 
 people with the rest of the inhabitants of the country. 
 It does not say that they were driven out by this great 
 convulsion of nature, and Mr. Diven only surmised 
 that they were because of the evidence of that con- 
 vulsion, found among their remains. But having 
 disposed of these Cliff-dwellers, let us return to this 
 great catastrophe. A great deal of sport has been 
 made by the opponents of the Book of Mormon 
 because it says that the darkness was so dense that 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS . 173 
 
 it could be felt. And they have said that it was so 
 thick that it could be cut with a knife, and such 
 remarks as that. But strange to say, we find some- 
 thing in tradition that sustains this statement also. 
 Brasseur de Bourbourg has translated what is called 
 the **Sacred Book'* (Popul Vuh) which, according 
 to Mr. Short, page 212, was first published by Doc- 
 tor Scherzer in Vienna in 1857, then translated by . 
 Brasseur de Bourbourg in 1860. In that we find the 
 tradition as quoted by Mr. Baldwin which Maude has 
 read and which Mr. Short also gives on pages 498 
 and 499. Ernest, you may read what Mr. Short gives 
 in a foot-note on page 499 : 
 
 Ernest.— ^^ThQ following are the legends, accord- 
 ing to Brasseur de Bourbourg: * According to the 
 tradition of the Sacred Book {Poind Vuh)^ water and 
 fire contributed to the universal ruin, at the time of 
 the last cataclysm which preceded the fourth crea- 
 tion. **Then," says the author, *'the waters were 
 agitated by the will of the Heart of Heaven, and a 
 great inundation came upon the heads of these crea- 
 tures. . . . They were engulfed, and a resinous 
 thickness descended from heaven. . . . The face of 
 the earth was obscured and a heavy, darkening rain 
 commenced, rain by day and rain by night. . . . 
 There was heard a great noise above their heads as if 
 produced by fire. Then were men seen running, 
 pushing each other, filled with despair; they wished 
 to climb upon their houses, and the houses tumbling 
 down fell to the ground ; they wished to climb upon 
 the trees, and the trees shook them off; they wished 
 to enter into the grottoes, and the grottoes closed 
 themselves before them." ' " 
 
174 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 Papa, — The statement that a **resinous thickness 
 descended from heaven'* expresses the thought 
 exactly, as given in the Book of Mormon, the 
 "darkness could be felt." All of the parts of this 
 legend do not agree exactly with the Book of Mor- 
 mon, but a tradition seldom agrees with all the facts, 
 yet as Mr. Short says on page 204, **It is certain that 
 while the legendary history of any nation may be 
 confused, exaggerated, and besides full of breaks, 
 still there are some main and fundamental facts out 
 of which it has grown, and this we think is especially 
 true of the New World traditions." The flood in 
 Noah's time may have been to a certain extent con- 
 fused with the great convulsion of nature that took 
 place when Christ was crucified, as would very 
 naturally be the case, but certain it is that these 
 legends and traditions very closely resemble the 
 account given in the Book of Mormon. After the 
 land southward, or South America, had been settled 
 and the Lamanites were constantly pressing them 
 from the south, the Nephites kept going farther and 
 farther north until they occupied nearly all of the 
 territory now known as the United States. Of this 
 migration northward Helaman speaks very fully in 
 his second chapter and verses 3 to 8. Read it, 
 Harry : 
 
 Harry. — **And it came to pass in the forty and 
 sixth, yea, there were much contentions and many 
 dissensions; in the which there were an exceeding 
 great many who departed out of the land of Zara- 
 hemla, and went forth unto the land northward, to 
 inherit the land; and they did travel to an exceeding 
 great distance, insomuch that they came to large 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 175 
 
 bodies of water, and many rivers; yea, and even 
 they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into 
 whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate, and 
 without timber, because of the many inhabitants who 
 had before inherited the land. And now no part of 
 the land was desolate, save it were for timber, etc.; 
 but because of the greatness of the destruction of the 
 people who had before inhabited the land, it was 
 called desolate. And there being but little timber 
 upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people 
 who w^ent forth became exceeding expert in the 
 working of cement; therefore they did build houses 
 of cement, in the which they did dwell. And it came 
 to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go 
 forth from the land southward to the land northward, 
 and did spread insomuch that they began to cover 
 the face of the whole earth, from the sea south, to the 
 sea north, from the sea west, to the sea east. And 
 the people who were in the land northward, did dwell 
 in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer 
 whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of 
 the land, that it should grow up, that in time they 
 might have timber to build their houses, yea, their 
 cities and their temples, and their synagogues, and 
 their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings. 
 And it came to pass as timber was exceeding scarce 
 in the land northward, they did send forth much by 
 the way of shipping; and thus they did enable the 
 people in the land northward, that they might build 
 many cities, both of wood and of cement." 
 
 Papa. — This was before the long period of peace 
 that we spoke of awhile ago, and while they were yet 
 divided into Nephites and Lamanites. There have 
 
176 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 been, as I said before, many opinions in regard to 
 the manner in which this country was peopled. At 
 the time the Book of Mormon came forth the most 
 popular opinion was that the *'Ten Lost Tribes of 
 Israel" had come here. Another opinion was that 
 some people had come across Behring Strait and 
 came down the western coast of North America. 
 Some even hold to that theory yet. Mr. Ridpath, as 
 you will see by this race-chart on mankind, on page 
 555 of his fourth volume, peoples this continent from 
 two directions. He is familiar with the facts as we 
 have already learned them, that there have been two 
 distinct peoples here. The South American people 
 he brings across from the west and lands them almost 
 exactly where they are landed by our own Committee 
 on Archaeology. Those who settled in North and 
 Central America he brings down the western coast 
 of North America. The Book of Mormon, as we see, 
 does not follow any of these theories, and this forms 
 one of the strong proofs that no man is responsible 
 for the book, for, if written by the wisdom of man, 
 some of these popular theories would have been 
 adopted by him. One by one, however, these theo- 
 ries are being proven false by the recent discoveries 
 made among the ruins. Similar constructions to 
 those found in South America have been found. 
 One, especially, found at Palenque, I wish to call 
 your attention to. Maude may read the description 
 as given by Baldwin on pages 105 and 106. And 
 while she is reading I want you to notice how much 
 this description is like the description of the temple 
 built by King Noah that we have before read about 
 from the Book of Mormon : 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 177 
 
 Maude, — **The largest known building at Palenque 
 is called the 'Palace.' It stands near the river, on a 
 terraced pyramidal foundation 40 feet high and 310 
 feet long, by 260 feet broad at the base. The edifice 
 itself is 228 feet long, 180 wide, and 25 feet high. 
 It faces the east, and has 14 doorways on each side, 
 with 11 at the ends. It was built entirely of hewn 
 stone, laid with admirable precision in mortar which 
 seems to have been of the best quality. A corridor 
 nine feet wide, and roofed by a pointed arch, went 
 around the building on the outside; and this was 
 separated from another of equal width. The 'Palace' 
 has four interior courts, the largest being seventy by 
 eighty feet in extent. These are surrounded by cor- 
 ridors, and the architectural work facing them is 
 richly decorated. Within the building were many 
 rooms. From the north side of one of the smaller 
 courts rises a high tower, or pagoda-like structure, 
 thirty feet square at the base, which goes up far 
 above the highest elevation of the building, and 
 seems to have been still higher when the whole struc- 
 ture was in perfect condition." 
 
 Papa. — This is a very good description of King 
 Noah's temple, even to the high tower that looked 
 over "the land of Shilom and the land of Shemlon 
 and even over all the land round about." This 
 same "palace" is described by Short, and on page 
 342 he gives a picture of this "palace" as they think 
 it appeared when it was in perfect condition. The 
 frontispiece of Mr. Short's book gives it as it looked 
 at the time this picture was taken and shows the base 
 of the tower. On pages 107 and 108 Mr. Baldwin 
 gives illustrations of two other temples at Palenque. 
 
178 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 And as we have already seen, Mr. Baldwin notes a 
 similarity between these constructions and those in 
 Peru, except those in Peru are not built on pyramidal 
 foundations. See Baldwin, page 231. We have also 
 concluded that the Nephites built Palenque, hence 
 the similarity of style with those found farther south. 
 Now, Maude, you may read pages 70 to 73 of Mr. 
 Baldwin's book where he shows that the Mound - 
 builders were evidently the same people who built 
 these ruins in Central America: 
 
 Maude. — **Who were the Mound-builders? — They 
 were unquestionably American aborigines, and not 
 immigrants from another continent. That appears to 
 me the most reasonable suggestion which assumes 
 that the Mound-builders came originally from Mexico 
 and Central America. It explains many facts con- 
 nected with their remains. In the Great Valley their 
 most populous settlements were at the south. Com- 
 ing from Mexico and Central America, they would 
 begin their settlements on the Gulf coast, and after- 
 wards advance gradually up the river to the Ohio 
 Valley. It seems evident that they came by this 
 route; and their remains show that their only con- 
 nection with the coast was at the south. Their 
 settlements did not reach the coast at any other 
 point. Their constructions were similar in design 
 and arrangement to those found in Mexico and 
 Central America. Like the Mexicans and Central 
 Americans, they had many of the smaller structures 
 known as teocallis, and also large, high mounds, with 
 level summits, reached by great flights of steps. 
 Pyramidal platforms or foundations for important 
 edifices appear in both regions, and are very much 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 179 
 
 alike. In Central America important edifices were 
 built of hewn stone, and can still be examined in 
 their ruins. The Mound-builders, like some of the 
 ancient people of Mexico and Yucatan, used wood, 
 sun-dried brick, or some other material that could 
 not resist decay. There is evidence that they used 
 timber for building purposes. In one of the mounds 
 opened in the Ohio Valley two chambers were found 
 with remains of the timber of which the walls were 
 made, and with arched ceilings precisely like those in 
 Central America, even to the overlapping stones. 
 Chambers have been found in some of the Central 
 American and Mexican mounds, but there hewn 
 stones were used for the walls. In both regions the 
 elevated and terraced foundations remain, and can 
 be compared. I have already called attention to the 
 close resemblance between them, but the fact is so 
 important in any endeavor to explain the Mound - 
 builders that I must bring it to view here. Consider, 
 then, that elevated and terraced foundations for 
 important buildings are peculiar to the ancient Mexi- 
 cans and Central Americans; that this method of 
 construction, which, with them, was the rule, is found 
 nowhere else, save that terraced elevations, carefully 
 constructed, and precisely like theirs in form and 
 appearance, occupy a chief place among the remain- 
 ing works of the Mound-builders. The use made of 
 these foundations at Palenque, Uxmal, and Chichen- 
 Itza [Chee-chain-Eet-tha], shows the purpose for 
 which they were constructed in the Mississippi Val- 
 ley. The resemblance is not due to chance. The 
 explanation appears to me very manifest. This 
 method of construction was brought to the Mississ- 
 
180 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 ippi Valley from Mexico and Central America, the 
 ancient inhabitants of that region and the Mound - 
 builders being the same people in race, and also in 
 civilization, when it was brought here. A very large 
 proportion of the old structures in Ohio and farther 
 south called *mounds,' namely, those which are low 
 in proportion to their horizontal extent, are terraced 
 foundations for buildings, and if they were situated 
 in Yucatan, Guatemala [Goo-ah-ta-mah-lah], and 
 Southern Mexico, they would never be mistaken for 
 anything else. The high mounds also in the two 
 regions are remarkably alike. In both cases they 
 are pyramidal in shape, and have level summits of 
 considerable extent, which were reached by means 
 of stairways on the outside. The great mound at 
 Chichen-Itza is seventy-five feet high, and has on its 
 summit a ruined stone edifice; that at Uxmal is sixty 
 feet high, and has a similar ruin on its summit; that 
 at Mayapan [Mah-ee-ah-pahn] is sixty feet high; 
 the edifice placed on its summit has disappeared. 
 The great mound at Miamisburg, Ohio, is sixty- eight 
 feet high : and that at Grave Creek, West Virginia, is 
 seventy-five feet high. Both had level summits, and 
 stairways on the outside, but no trace of dny struc- 
 ture remains on them. All these mounds were con- 
 structed for religious uses, and they are, in their 
 way, as much alike as any five Gothic churches. 
 Could these works of the Mound-builders be restored 
 to the condition in which they were when the country 
 was filled with their busy communities, we should 
 doubtless see great edifices, similar in style to those 
 in Yucatan, standing on the upper terraces of all the 
 low and extended * mounds,' and smaller structures 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 181 
 
 on the high mounds, such as those above named. 
 There would seem to be an extension of ancient 
 Mexico and Central America through Texas into the 
 Mississippi and Ohio Valleys; and so, if there were 
 no massive stone-work in the old ruins of those coun- 
 tries, it might seem that the Mound -builders' works 
 were anciently extended into them by way of Texas. 
 The fact that the settlements and works of the 
 Mound-builders extended through Texas and across 
 the Rio Grande indicates very plainly their connec- 
 tion with the people of Mexico, and goes far to 
 explain their origin. We have other evidence of 
 intercourse between the two peoples; for the obsidian 
 dug from the mounds, and perhaps the porphyry 
 also, can be explained only by supposing commercial 
 relations between them. We can not suppose the 
 Mound-builders to have come from any other part of 
 North America, for nowhere else north of the Isthmus 
 was there any other people capable of producing such 
 works as they left in the places where they dwelt. 
 Beyond the relics of the Mound -builders themselves, 
 no traces of the former existence of such a people 
 have been discovered in any part of North America 
 save Mexico and Central America, and districts 
 immediately connected with them. At the same time, 
 it is not unreasonable to suppose the civilized people 
 of these regions extended their settlements through 
 Texas, and also migrated across the Gulf into the 
 Mississippi Valley. In fact, the connection of settle- 
 ments by way of Texas appears to have been 
 unbroken from Ohio to Mexico." 
 
 Papa, — Some have thought that the Mound-build- 
 ers were the Jaredites, but whether they were Jared- 
 
182 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 ites or Nephites, Mr. Baldwin's reasoning would suit 
 either case equally well. But the story told by the 
 Book of Mormon just read by Harry seems to find 
 corroboration in these discoveries as stated by Mr. 
 Baldwin. It says they shipped building material 
 north from Central America, and Mr. Baldwin says 
 that the "obsidian" and "porphyry" found in the 
 mounds must have come from there, and in general 
 agrees with the story as told by the Book of Mormon. 
 Their skill in working cement is especially mentioned 
 by nearly all archaeologists, and the composition of 
 their cement has not been equaled by any modern 
 builder. One great source of difficulty, and that 
 which has been used by the opponents of the Book 
 of Mormon, is the wonderful marches that were made 
 by the Jaredites and Nephites in some of their last 
 battles, and they have said that it would be improb- 
 able at least that such distances could have been 
 traveled by any one. The bones of these people, 
 however, show them to have been the greatest 
 pedestrians in the world, ancient or modern. Ernest, 
 you may read what Mr. Short says about this on 
 page 185: 
 
 JErnest. — "That flattening of the leg-bone or tibia, 
 peculiar to prehistoric man in Europe, and perhaps 
 the result of rugged exertion in climbing mountains 
 <• nd traversing the country with that rapidity which 
 the chase required where the horse is wanting, is 
 more noticeable in the remains of some of the Mound- 
 builders than in any other people. This peculiarity 
 of the tibia called platycnemism, is probably a pro- 
 vision of nature, securing a firmer and better defined 
 process upon which the muscles of the leg could fas- 
 
^ 1 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 183 
 
 ten themselves, and its prominence among the people 
 of the mounds indicates the possession of great 
 pedestrian powers." 
 
 Papa. — You may also read the foot-note at the 
 bottom of the same page, where Mr. Short gives his 
 authority for this conclusion : 
 
 Ernest. — ** *This flattening of the leg-bone was of 
 a degree unheard of — I might almost say undreamt 
 of — ^in any other part of this country or of the world. 
 In many of the more extreme cases of those flattened 
 tibiae with saber-like curvature which I had exhumed 
 at the Rouge, the traverse diameter was only 0.48 
 of the antero -posterior, less than half, while in that 
 most marked and isolated case recorded by Broca, 
 from the cave at Cro-Magnon, France, it was 0.60. 
 In the chimpanzee and gorilla the compression is 0.67. 
 Shortly afterward, even this extreme degree of com- 
 pression was cast in the shade by my bringing to 
 light from a mound on the Detroit River, rich in 
 relics, among a number of the flattened tibiae, two 
 specimens of this bone in which the latitudinal indices 
 were respectively 0.42 and 0.40.' — Henry Gillman in 
 Proceedings American Association for Advancement 
 of Science, vol. 24, pp. 316, 317.** 
 
 Papa — Mr. Short also refers to four more authori- 
 ties on this subject, so on every point we find evi- 
 dence to prove the Book of Mormon true. One by 
 one the old theories are given up and more and more 
 they are coming to the conclusions advanced by the 
 Book of Mormon since 1830. In 1830 this wonderful 
 book said that the Jaredites were wafted across the 
 Atlantic Ocean and were driven by winds which they 
 attributed to God, as all ancient people did anything 
 
184 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 of the kind. Now- comes Mr. Short and in opposition 
 to the theory advanced by Mr. Donnelly of a bridge 
 of land called Atlantis, advocates exactly the same 
 theory, or rather says that such a thing is quite 
 probable. Read it, Ernest, pages 505 and 506: 
 
 Ernest. — "The colonization of America by trans- 
 atlantic peoples, it seems to us, did not depend upon 
 the existence of a land bridge at a remote period, but 
 could have been accomplished without the aid of the 
 compass, either intentionally or accidentally, through 
 the agency of the equatorial current and the trade- 
 winds, two mighty forces perpetually tending toward 
 the shores of the new world. The return current of 
 the Gulf Stream which describes a semicircle in the 
 east Atlantic washes in its sweep the Azores, the 
 Maderia, the Canary, and Cape Verde Islands, 
 approaching in its southern course the shores of 
 Portugal, Morocco, and the Sahara Desert, and 
 finally uniting with the stronger equatorial current 
 which rushes up the coast of Africa, crosses the 
 Atlantic under the equator, and skirts the coast of 
 South America until it reaches the Caribbean Sea 
 and the Gulf of Mexico. The northeast trade-winds 
 blowing perpetually from the coast of Europe in a 
 belt from eighteen to twenty degrees in width (or 
 from twelve hundred and forty -five to twelve hun- 
 dren and seventy-five miles) reach the coasts of the 
 American continent over an area which extends from 
 the mouth of the Amazon to the northern boundary 
 of Florida. Through the agency of these mild but 
 almost unvarying forces Columbus was steadily borne 
 on to the accomplishment of the greatest event of 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 185 
 
 modern history. The companions of the admiral 
 were dismayed by the persistency with which they 
 were wafted beyond the bounds of the known world, 
 and ascribed the unceasing east wind, which they 
 supposed offered them no hope of return to their 
 homes, to a device of the devil. In one of the houses 
 on the island of Guadaloupe Columbus on his second 
 voyage saw the sternpost of a vessel, supposed to 
 have been the fragment of some ship that had drifted 
 across the Atlantic and been cast, together with the 
 crew, upon unknown shores. How often and how 
 long this same process had operated it is impossible 
 to conjecture. The accidental discovery of Brazil by 
 Cabral furnishes an additional reason for believing 
 that anciently vessels may have reached the new 
 world. Pedro Alvarez de Cabral [Pa-dro-ahl-vah 
 rath da Kah-brahl] was dispatched by the Portu- 
 guese on the 9th of March 1500, with a fleet of thir- 
 teen vessels on a voyage around the Cape of Good 
 Hope, to Calicut. After passing the Cape Verde 
 Islands he bore away to the west, in order to avoid 
 the calms prevailing on the Guinea coast. On the 
 25th of April, to his surprise he discovered what 
 proved to be the South American Continent, at a 
 point which he named Porto Securo [Por-to Sa- 
 koo-ro]. When we consider that the distance from 
 the coast of Africa to Cape Frio [Free-o], Brazil, is 
 but fifteen hundred and thirty miles, and realize that 
 twelve centuries before Christ the Phoenicians and 
 probably other maritime peoples of the Mediterranean 
 visited Britain at the north and coasted Africa to the 
 south, the probabilities are strong that, through the 
 natural agency of the Atlantic currents and th^ 
 
186 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 trade-winds, some ancient mariners reached the 
 American coast." 
 
 Papa. — The language of the Book of Mormon is 
 that **the wind did never cease to blow towards the 
 promised land, while they were on the waters," 
 describing the trade-winds in almost the same lan- 
 guage that Mr. Short employs. So the story of 
 Jared and his brother is not as unreasonable as some 
 have supposed. They '*commended themselves to 
 God," is the statement made in the Book of Mormon, 
 and God used the natural currents and forces to work 
 his will with them. In our last talk we read from the 
 Book of Mormon how Christ was preached to the 
 people on this continent nearly six hundred years 
 before he came into this world, and that a church of 
 Christ was organized and all of its ordinances per- 
 formed long before he came. That he would come 
 and that he would be crucified was a common topic 
 of their preaching and prophecying. Nothing would 
 be more natural than that the cross would be a reli- 
 gious emblem with them, and would be found in all 
 their works, especially in their temples and other 
 places of worship. Mr. Short on pages 363 and 364 
 gives an account of a cross found in a subterranean 
 passage. You may read it, Ernest: 
 
 Ernest, — "Under a temple on the southwest side 
 of the one we have just referred to, is a subterranean 
 gallery, constructed in the form of a cross. The 
 opening is at the base of the mound upon which the 
 temple stands. The arms of the cross pointing 
 towards the east, north, and west, are each twelve 
 feet long, five and a half feet wide, and six and a half 
 feet high. The southern arm is, however, about 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 187 
 
 twenty feet long, and not more than four feet high 
 throughout most of its length. Near the center of 
 the cross (which lies directly under the center of the 
 temple above) a flight of four steps descends in the 
 southern arm of the cross to a lower level, so that the 
 southern arm of the passage is somewhat lower than 
 the others. The entire subterranean chamber was 
 roofed with large flat stones reaching from side to 
 side.'* 
 
 Papa. — ^Mr. Baldwin also describes a temple in 
 which a cross is found. I showed you the picture of 
 the temple with its ground plan on page 108 of his 
 work. Maude, you may read what he says about it 
 on page 109 : 
 
 Maude, — ** *Casa No. 2' of Mr. Stephens is usually 
 called *La Cruz' [Lah Krooth] because the most 
 prominent object within the building is a great bas- 
 relief on which are sculptured a cross and several 
 human figures. This building stands on the high 
 pyramid, and is approached by a flight of steps. 
 Dupaix says, *It is impossible to describe adequately 
 the interior decoration of this sumptuous temple. 
 The cross is supposed to have been the central object 
 of interest. It was wonderfully sculptured and deco- 
 rated ; human figures stand near it, and some grave 
 ceremony seems to be represented. The infant held 
 toward the cross by one of the figures suggests a 
 christening ceremony. The cross is one of the most 
 common emblems present in all the ruins. This led 
 the Catholic missionaries to assume that knowledge 
 of Christianity had been brought to that part of 
 America long before their arrival; and they adopted 
 
188 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 the belief that the gospel was preached there by St. 
 Thomas." 
 
 Papa.— The presence of the cross in these ruins 
 has puzzled the scientific men considerably and they 
 have been at a loss to account for the apparent age 
 of the ruins and yet to see them associated with this 
 emblem that some suppose is but eighteen hundred 
 years old. The Book of Mormon, however, makes 
 all this plain. The Book of Mormon also says that 
 Christ came to the people here and taught them his 
 gospel and that immediately following his advent a 
 reign of peace commenced and lasted nearly two 
 hundred years. There is a legend among the Mexi- 
 cans of a great man known by the name of Quetzal - 
 coatl, who came to this country, taught them 
 doctrines of peace and virtue, and a reign of peace 
 was ushered in. He went away in a canoe and 
 promised to return again. Mr. Short gives this 
 legend on pages 267 to 274. It is too long for us to 
 read here, but Ernest may read a sketch of his 
 appearance as given in the legend and repeated by 
 Mr. Short on pages 267 and 268 : 
 
 Ernest, — "From the distant east, from the fabu- 
 lous Hue hue Tlapalan, this mysterious personage 
 came to Tulla, and became the patron god and 
 high priest of the ancestors of the Toltecs. He is 
 described as having been a white man, with a strong 
 formation of body, broad forehead, large eyes, and 
 flowing beard. He wore a mitre on his head, and 
 was dressed in a long, white robe, reaching to his 
 feet, and covered with red crosses. In his hand he 
 held a sickle. His habits were ascetic; he never 
 married, was most chaste and pure in his life, and is 
 
BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 180 
 
 said to have endured penance in a neighboring moun- 
 tain, not for its effects upon himself, but as an exam- 
 ple to others. Some have here found a parallel for 
 Christ's temptation. He condemned sacrifices, except 
 of fruits and flowers, and was known as the god of 
 peace; for when addressed on the subject of war, 
 he is reported to have stopped his ears with his 
 fingers.'* 
 
 Papa. — This certainly is a wonderful confirmation 
 of what the Book of Mormon says of Christ's coming. 
 It says, Nephi 6: 4, that *'he was clothed in a white 
 robe," and that his appearance was followed by a 
 long period of peace and prosperity; war was not 
 known in the land, and not even * 'disputation"; 
 every man dealt justly with his neighbor; the arts 
 and sciences were wonderfully developed; many 
 cities were built and rebuilt. All this is confirmed ir» 
 this tradition related at length by Mr. Short. A 
 number of rites and ceremonies of the gospel were 
 found in America, among them baptism. Mr. Short 
 says: **Baptism was considered the means of regen- 
 eration in Yucatan, and was practiced by the Mexi- 
 cans as a religious ceremony." "We read in our 
 former conversation about infant baptism becoming 
 prevalent among the people in Book of Mormon times 
 and how Mormon wrote against it. This erroneous 
 practice was kept up, it seems, for Mr. Short in a 
 foot-note on pages 462 and 463 gives an account of 
 this ceremony and how it was performed. In the 
 legend that we have just referred to it is said that 
 this wonderful white man was finally overcome by a 
 god who loved war and blood, and this came to pass 
 according to the Book of Mormon, when divisions 
 
190 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 began to enter in and there began to be Nephites 
 and Lamanites again in the land. The Nephites were 
 finally driven out of first one city and then another 
 until they were all destroyed or had gone over to the 
 Lamanites. The Nephites were civilized, the Laman- 
 ites were uncivilized. The Nephites were skilled in 
 the arts, while the Lamanites were not. Evidences 
 that this is true are also found in the ruins. It is 
 found in Baldwin, pages 121 and 122. Maude may 
 read it : 
 
 Maude, — *' *It is a bewildering maze of courts and 
 buildings, with facings ornamented with mosaics in 
 relief of the purest design ; but under the projections 
 are found traces of paintings wholly primitive in 
 style, in which the right line is not even respected. 
 These are rude figures of idols, and meandering lines 
 that have no significance. Similar paintings appear, 
 with the same imperfection, on every great edifice, in 
 places which have allowed them shelter against the 
 ravages of time. These rude designs, associated 
 with palaces so correct in architecture, and so orna- 
 mented with panels of mosaic of such marvelous 
 workmanship, put strange thoughts in the mind. 
 To find the explanation of this phenomenon, must 
 we not suppose these palaces were occupied by a 
 race less advanced in civilization than their first 
 builders?' " 
 
 Papa, — One would almost think that Mr. Charnay, 
 from whom Mr. Baldwin quotes this statement, was 
 defending the Book of Mormon claims. He has been 
 on the ground and examined the ruins personally. 
 The wall which he is describing you will see illus- 
 trated on the page opposite page 121. It shows these 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 191 
 
 wonderful mosaics. This certainly shows just what 
 the Book of Mormon claims, that the Nephites, a 
 highly civilized and skillful people, were driven from 
 their cities and they were occupied by the Lamanites, 
 a people who did not understand as fully the arts of 
 civilization. According to the Book of Mormon, two 
 highly civilized peoples once inhabited this country. 
 Both were destroyed. Their battle-fields were 
 mainly, in the last years of their struggle, from the 
 plains of Mexico to the northeastern part of the 
 United States. They fought across the plains of 
 Texas and on up through Arkansas, Missouri, 
 Indiana, Ohio, and so forth. In recent years all this 
 has been confirmed by the discoveries of ancient 
 earthworks, built evidently for defense; ancient 
 burial-places where thousands have been buried, 
 their skulls showing that they must have died in 
 battle. Ethel, you may read from the clipping you 
 read from some time ago found in my scrap-book, 
 page 183: 
 
 Etheh — **One writer says: *I concluded that these 
 had been arranged to support the roof of a continu- 
 ous subterranean gallery, which may have been par- 
 titioned, and here the people dwelt. Under such an 
 order of things the whole nation lived and slept in 
 line of battle. When the sentry sounded the alarm 
 the warriors sprang to the roof of the subterranean 
 gallery, and with the great wall of dirt before them 
 were ready to defy the foe. The nation occupied 
 these long parallel galleries and in daytime culti- 
 vated the fields. On every side of these parallel lines 
 one finds innumerable bastions, looking just as if 
 some modern artilleryman had made them only a few 
 
192 BOOK OP MORMON TALKS 
 
 years ago. They are in the shape of a half moon, 
 about fifteen feet between the horns. I felt my 
 theory established when I found petrified timbers in 
 these half- moon earthworks. The nation lived with 
 arms in their hands, and families dwelt in these half- 
 moon bastions to give the alarm when any enemy 
 was approaching. . . . The earthworks extended to 
 the Brazos River, a distance of twenty miles on the 
 east, and to another stone wall about twenty miles on 
 the west. They spread all over the Yegua country 
 on the south, and with here and there a break can be 
 traced to the valleys of Mexico. I rode my horse in 
 one of these ditches for about ten miles. It ran over 
 hill and dale, through forest and plain, and was often 
 so deep that I could not see over the embankment. 
 Many times I saw the petrified timbers and they were 
 always of uniform dimensions. Two or three hun- 
 dred yards away another ditch of the same kind ran 
 parallel with the one I was following. At one end 
 they terminated on the banks of the Brazos and at 
 the other on a high hill, where the two lines 
 approached to within ten feet of each other, forming 
 a gateway.'* 
 
 Papa. — This sounds almost like the Book of Mor- 
 mon language in describing some of their last strug- 
 gles. But we will have to bring our talk to a close, 
 as it is getting late. In conclusion I shall ask Maude 
 to read from the preface of Mr. Baldwin's work show- 
 ing that comparatively little was known of American 
 archaeology by the general reader at the time that 
 the Book of Mormon was published. For that reason 
 we must conclude that neither Joseph Smith nor any 
 other man could have written it by his own wisdom, 
 
BOOK OF MORMON TALKS WiJ 
 
 as it would have been impossible for him to have so 
 completely anticipated scientific discoveries : 
 
 Maude, — "The purpose of this volume is to give a 
 summary of what is known of American antiquities, 
 with some thoughts and suggestions relative to their 
 significance. It aims at nothing more. No similar 
 work, I believe, has been published in English or 
 any other language. What is known of American 
 archaeology is recorded in a great many volumes, 
 English, French, Spanish, and German, each work 
 being confined to some particular department of the 
 subject, or containing only an intelligent traveler's 
 brief sketches of what he saw as he went through 
 some of the districts where the old ruins are found. 
 Many of the more important of these works are either 
 in French or Spanish, or in great English quartos 
 and folios which are not accessible to general read- 
 ers, and not one of them attempts to give a compre- 
 hensive view of the whole subject." 
 
 Pajpa, — Mr. Baldwin wrote in 1871, Mr. Short in 
 1879. The Popul Vuh, or Sacred Book, from which 
 many of the legends and traditions we have quoted 
 to-night were taken, was not translated into English 
 until 1860, hence the supposition that any man could 
 have written the Book of Mormon by his own wisdom 
 is preposterous, and it is easier to believe that the 
 book is what it claims to be than to believe that it is 
 not. It has been established as a truth that civiliza- 
 tion is not known where revelation from God is not 
 known. Wherever the Bible is known and believed 
 and where its precepts are made the foundation of 
 the government, there civilization follows. Queen 
 Victoria is reported to have answered an African 
 
194 BOOK OF MORMON TALKS 
 
 prince who, through his ambassadors, asked her to 
 give him the secret of England's greatness and 
 superiority among the nations, by handing them a 
 Bible and saying, "Go tell your prince that this is 
 the secret of England's political greatness." If, then, 
 in all the known world no civilization has ever 
 existed, only as God has revealed his will to men, 
 must we not conclude that these mighty nations who 
 developed such a wonderful civilization on this con- 
 tinent as we have learned of in this investigation, a 
 civilization, too, which has filled the world with 
 astonishment, must have had revelation from God 
 just as the Book of Mormon claims, and what would 
 be more natural than that God would have, in some 
 way, preserved that record, and brought it forth to 
 bless mankind and as a second witness for him? 
 Some have thought that the story of the great battles 
 fought are unreasonable, but the Book of Mormon is 
 not responsible for the fact that these nations have 
 been here and gone. Had the Book of Mormon 
 never existed we would have known that they had 
 been here and gone. There are no traces of their 
 having migrated to other lands. Their remains show 
 that they died in battle. The Book of Mormon tells 
 how. It is a simple fact of history, and is corrobo- 
 rated by all the facts connected with their remains. 
 And marvelous as it seems to us, we can but believe 
 it to be a true record. Continue the investigation as 
 you have begun, children, and may "God be with 
 you" in that investigation. Good-night, my dears. 
 AIL — Good-night, and thank you, papa. 
 
 He-or|r 
 
 
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