i-B 1631 r-NRLF .EPORT OF DEPUTATION FROM CLASSICAL ASSOCIATION TO HE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION APRIL 27, 1917 LONDON >HN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE STREET, W. 1917 h * CS ALL RIGHTS RESERVED MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS OF A DEPUTATION FROM THE CLASSICAL ASSOCIATION WHICH WAITED UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOAED OF EDUCA- TION (THE RIGHT HON. H. A. L. FISHER, LL.D., F.B.A.) ON FRIDAY, APRIL 27TH, 1917, AT THE OFFICE OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION, WHITEHALL, S.W., AT 12 O'CLOCK NOON, FROM THE CLASSICAL ASSOCIATION. THE President was accompanied by : Sir L. Amherst Selby- Bigge, K.C.B., Permanent Secretary of the Board; Mr. Gilbert Murray; The Hon. W. N. Bruce, C.B., Principal Assistant Secretary, The Secondary Schools Branch ; Mr. J. W. Mackail, Assistant Secretary, Secondary Schools Branch; Sir Owen Edwards, Chief Inspector, Welsh Department ; Mr. W. C. Fletcher, Chief Inspector, Secondary Schools ; Mrs. M.Withi el, Woman Inspector ; Mr. J. W. Headlam ; and Mr. F. H. Oates and Mr. N. D. Bos- worth- Smith, Private Secretaries. The Deputation consisted of The Right Hon. Viscount Bryce, O.M., P.B.A. ; Sir Frederic George Kenyon, K.C.B., F.B.A., Sir Archibald Geikie, O.M., K.C.B., F.R.S. ; Professor Haver- field, F.B.A. ; Professor Sonnenschein ; Professor R. S. Conway ; Professor Ure ; Professor D. A. Slater ; Dr. W. Rushbrooke ; Mr. Walter Leaf ; the Headmaster of Marlborough (Mr. C. Norwood); Mr. A. Mansbridge ; Mr. W. E. P. Pantin; Miss Limebeer ; Miss Strudwick ; Miss H. L. Powell ; Miss M. H. Wood ; Mr. E. R. Garnsey ; and Mr. W. Edwards. Lord BRYCE : " Mr. Fisher, I have the honour to introduce to you a deputation which comes to you under the auspices of the Classical Association to make certain representations with regard to the position of classical studies, which it is the duty, business and occupation of the Classical Association to guard and promt e. 3 ::..:.-.. ( 4 ) These representations deal with certain questions that have recently engaged your attention in practical form. I need say comparatively little in introducing the Deputation, in the first place because these subjects are very familiar, and long have been familiar to you, and in the next place because we hare brought with us here a memorial addressed to you and also a memorandum which has been prepared for the purpose by the Classical Association, and which contains suggestions upon this subject, which I am sure you will be glad to have, and will weigh most carefully. There is one specific point to which I may advert, because it is a point most distinctly of a practical character to which your attention will be directed by the members of the Deputation, and particularly by those who have had some practical experience ; it is that which may be done and ought to be done for giving an opening for the acquisition of classical knowledge by promising pupils existing in places where it is not always possible, within the immediate reach of the residence of the pupil, to provide those higher classical studies which it is our desire to promote and secure, if possible, attention to in our schools. You will have long felt that we are confronted here by two difficulties, and I may say that these difficulties may most clearly be appreciated by stating to you three propositions upon which I think all those who have studied higher education are pretty well agreed. I will not say that opinion is unanimous about them, because we have seen extreme divergences on both sides. Still, I think most people are practically agreed on these three propositions, which may be taken as our point of departure. In the first place, there are some studies which do not present sufficient prospect, to the average mind of the average parent, of a definite practical pecuniary advantage to induce him to desire that his children should be educated in these subjects, or to secure the support of a comparatively uninstructed opinion to give attention to those studies. Those studies nevertheless, although not making this immediate direct practical claim, are studies which in our opinion are so essential to the true concep- tion of the highest education, so essential to the complete fitting out of a man for his duties in this world as a citizen and as a Christian, so essential to what may be called the higher intel- ( 5 ) lectual and moral life of the Nation as a whole, that it is of great importance that they should be retained, and that due provision should be made for them in whatever curricula of instruction are finally accepted by the country as fit to be generally adopted in schools. In the second place, these studies are not fit for all pupils; it is only boys and girls of superior intellectual gifts, I might perhaps also say of special intellectual gifts, who are fitted to derive due benefit from them. They are also studies the full benefit of which cannot be obtained without advancing in a con- siderable direction in them. There are some studies in which even a small knowledge is profitable and useful, but there are other studies whose benefit is not obtained until you reach a certain advance in them. For instance, in mathematics I would venture to submit that even a slight acquaintance, which does not go beyond the first two books of Euclid, is valuable intellectu- ally. But a knowledge of Greek which does not go beyond the Greek Accidence is of little or no value, I should say is practically of no value at all. Therefore we have to consider that there is a great difference between studies in which even a small know- ledge is of use and those in which the full benefit does not begin to be reached until you have made considerable progress in them. The third proposition is this : It is practically impossible for us to provide in all secondary schools instruction in some of these higher studies for the pupils who attend those schools, and therefore we shall be obliged to draw a distinction between two kinds of secondary schools, those in which provision will be made for those higher studies and those in which no provision or comparatively an imperfect provision can be made. And that brings us to the practical problem : How are we to do the two things which in our view are essential to the maintenance of the higher standard of education ; how are we to make pro- vision to enable the promising boys and girls, who have an apti- tude for these higher studies, to obtain them, and to advance sufficiently far in them to begin to reap the benefits ? This really is part of a larger question : How are we, through our mechanism of elementary and secondary schools, to discover the promising minds, the minds that have in them the hope of reaching high excellence and making substantial contributions to the intellectual ( 6 ) wealth of the Nation ; how are we to reach these through our machinery in schools ; how are we, even in the elementary schools, to find the boy who will make the most out of a secondary- education, and how, in the secondary schools in general, are we to find those boys and girls who are fit to be sent to the schools which will give that highest form of secondary education, to which I have already referred ? That seems to be the great practical problem. It is largely a problem of organisation, and upon that question of organisation there are many here in the Deputation who are much more competent to speak than I should be, even if I desired to take up your time in entering into what they will do much better. It is a problem which you already, from your experience in the great manufacturing City of Sheffield, must have been faced with, and which I am sure you have already considered. But I hope that the practical light which some of the members of the Deputation can give you from their experience will not be without its value. Let me add that I venture to call your attention specially to the third section of this memorial which we have the honour to lay before you, which begins with ' Finally the Classical Associa- tion desires to draw the attention of the Board of Education to the existing tendency, by which the education given to the cleverer children who come from the elementary schools bears a different stamp from that given to children of the professional classes, being directed more narrowly to material and industrial well-being and less to the effective study of literature and history.' This raises a larger question than that to which the Deputation is specially directed. It raises the question not only of classical studies but of higher studies altogether. The elements of Philosophy, the study of History, are intimately concerned, and I only mention it for the sake of expressing what I believe are the views of the Deputation, that this is a matter of supreme importance to the Nation. You have already done a great deal to frame, and I trust that you, by the proposals you have laid before Parliament, are to do still more to furnish, opportunities by which the best intellectual force of the people can receive the best training and be imbued with those studies from which it will derive benefit. We are very anxious not to let those studies be the special prerogative of those who have been the richer and the more educated classes. We believe that the reserve of intellectual power of our people ought to be introduced to them. We are extremely anxious that everything should be done to give them a chance of obtaining from education all that education can give, and to fit them as they make their way upwards in life to do everything that their natural talents, matured and polished by education, can accomplish for the benefit of the Nation as a whole. We think that in the construction of some machinery for that purpose, to turn to higher account, and better and fuller account, all of that intellectual reserve in the Nation, we shall do more than perhaps we can do by anything else to maintain for our people that position in the world, in the practical world and in the intellectual world, which they have held, and which we hope they will continue to hold. That, above all things, is the subject which we desire to commend to your attention. I have the pleasure of asking Sir Frederic Kenyon, whom you know, to follow with some remarks on that subject." Sir FREDERIC KENYON : "I have the honour, sir, as Chairman of the Council of the Classical Association, formally to put before you these proposals which have already been sent to you. I do not think it is necessary for me to say much in explanation of them. The principle is quite clear, and I hope it is so obviously just that it will commend itself not only to you, but to all who have to deal with the matter here and outside. On the other hand, the matters of detail which are so important will necessarily have to be dealt with by the experts of your Board and those teachers who are concerned with the administration of secondary education in the schools which we have in mind. What I want to emphasise, if I may, is this : that these pro- posals are not an attempt of a selfish character on the part of the advocates of Greek and Latin ; they are part of a larger scheme of educational reform in which the Classical Association is asso- ciated with other bodies representing not only other branches of the humanities, but also natural science. There have been during the past year a series of conferences and discussions between organisations of this kind which have ( 8 ) achieved, I think I may say, a very remarkable amount of unan- imity. Their object has been to secure harmony between the different interests which have so often been wasting their time in attacking one another, and to arrive at some common programme for secondary education in this country. We are not asking therefore I want to make this plain for any privileged position on behalf of the classics. We recognise, of course, that the classics have held a privileged position in what are known ordinarily as the Public Schools the Public Schools of the older type. Those are schools founded by people who believed in the classics, and they were founded in times when scientific education, as we know it now, did not exist. I will not take up time in eulogising the work they have done or the aim of the classical education given by them. We recog- nise fully now that provision must be made in those schools for more time to be given to Natural Science, and in many cases to other branches of the humanities, and that that time must be obtained by economies at the expense of classical teaching. The definite proposals, of course, must be made by the representatives of these other subjects concerned, and our share is only, so far as we have influence, to receive them sympathetically, and to do our best to see that they are given fair play. What we have to do, as representing the interests of classical education, is the converse of that proposition, to ask that in schools in which provision for classical teaching does not exist or is inadequate such provision of a good class should be made. We feel that the aptitude for classical study is not confined to one social class, and our object is to secure that opportunity for studying Greek and Latin should be within the reach of all boys and girls who have sufficient aptitude to benefit by it, in whatever class of society they may be born. When I say ' have sufficient aptitude ' for it I do not mean only that they are likely to become proficient teachers of classics. We believe that the benefit of classical education spreads much wider than that, and that there are in those classes of society, as in those classes that go to the Public Schools, a large proportion of boys and girls who could profit by a first-hand acquaintance with Greek and Latin language and literature, and our object is that they shall have the oppor- tunity of receiving it. ( 9 ) We are not asking that classics should be made compulsory upon anyone ; we are asking that ignorance of the classics should not be compulsory upon anyone. Our claim, of course, rests on our belief in the educational value of Greek and Latin. That no doubt is denied by some, and it has been argued that all the benefit that most people could hope to get from Greek and Latin can be derived from translations. I do not think it is necessary to argue that point at any length here. I do not question that there are many students who would not benefit from Greek and Latin to a sufficient extent to make it worth while for them to persevere with those languages, and for them the best thing they can do is to get what benefit can be got from translations ; but no one who is conversant with the subject at all, no one who is conversant with those languages, would regard it as an arguable proposition that you can get as much benefit from translations as from originals, if you have the capacity of understanding the originals. We are not asking that education in the Greek and Latin lan- guages should be made compulsory on those who have not got the capacity to benefit from them. We are asking, however and we regard it as an obvious proposition that those who have the aptitude for going far enough really to learn and appreciate these languages should be enabled to do so, and that it be admitted also that they would get more benefit from the knowledge of the lan- guages and the literature themselves than they possibly could from translations. The next point I should wish to make is that we are looking at this from the point of view of the education of the citizen. It ia again universally admitted that a knowledge of human nature is at least as essential to the future citizen as a knowledge of the material natural world by which we are surrounded, and what we desire is to put within the reach of boys of all classes both branches of education. Why should an acquaintance at first hand with the finest literature in the world, or the linguistic training which ancient languages can give more effectually than modern, be confined to the clever boys of the Public-School class ? Why should not the clever boy of the Board School have his chance of benefits which are only denied by a small proportion even of those who have themselves had no experience of them ? Our conception of citizenship has, of course, expanded very ( 10 ) largely since the days when classical schools were almost the only schools in the country, and the result has been that the large majority of our future citizens is growing up now with a different style of education, one which is mainly confined to natural science and to what may be called the more material branches of educa- tion which are likely to bring a return of a commercial kind. What we want is that these future citizens should have added to their education a knowledge of human nature, of the thoughts and purposes of men in the past, in order that their experience may be widened. Such knowledge is a knowledge of history, a know- ledge of the thoughts of men in the past ; it is in effect the widen- ing of experience, and no country can have stable institutions which does not possess experience. I do not think I need labour that point at any length ; it is admitted by those for whom I am now speaking, and also by those who are concerned with the other main branches of a liberal education. In the memorandum which we have laid before you we have quoted a recent declaration of the Workers' Educational Associa- tion. It states ' That since the character of British Democracy ultimately depends on the collective wisdom of its adult members, no system of education can be complete that does not promote serious thought and discussion on the fundamental interests and problems of life and society.' That declaration we should thoroughly endorse, with the addition that no serious thought and discussion on the fundamental interests and problems of life and society can be complete which does not include a knowledge, and a knowledge at first hand, of the way in which those problems were dealt with in ancient Greece and Rome. With regard to this declaration, there is no one who can speak with more authority on behalf of the Workers' Educational Association than Mr. Albert Mansbridge, who is here to-day, so I will say no more on that head. On the other hand, we have also the assent of the representatives of natural science, as well as of other branches of the humanities. There was a conference held recently between two bodies known as the Council for Humanistic Studies and the Educational Sub- Committee of the Board of Scientific Societies. The Council for Humanistic Studies includes such bodies as the British Academy, the Classical Association, the English, Geographical, Historical, ( 11 ) and Modern Language Associations, and other kindred bodies, while the Board of Scientific Societies includes representatives of the Royal Society and of the leading Societies which are con- nected with natural science. At that Conference this resolution was passed unanimously. * While it is probably impossible to provide adequate instruction in both Latin and Greek in all secondary schools, provision should be made in every area for teaching in these subjects, so that every boy and girl who is qualified to profit from them shall have the opportunity of receiving adequate instruction in them.' 1 So the principle of these proposals which I have laid before you, sir, is only one of which the desirability is admitted by practically all those who are qualified to speak on educational subjects, and I think it may be claimed to the credit of the con- ferences and discussions which have taken place during the past year that so much unanimity has been arrived at. As to the actual condition of things, and the extent to which it falls short of this ideal, there are others here who will follow me, and who can speak from first-hand experience, so I will leave that part of the subject entirely to them. What, in conclusion, I want earnestly to press is that this is a unique opportunity for introducing reforms in secondary educa- tion which will have a practically unanimous backing. We are agreed now that education is the essential basis of citizenship. We are agreed that a well-balanced education includes instruction both in the humanities and in natural science, and I should add too that it includes a respect for knowledge in both those branches, and that those concerned with each branch should reciprocally respect the knowledge which is the province of the other branch. We are agreed also that different students have different aptitudes, and that provision should be made to satisfy all aptitudes of a healthy kind. 1 The Executive Committee of the Board of Scientific Societies accepted this resolution in a modified form, viz. : " While it is impossible and undesirable to provide adequate instruction in both Latin and Greek in all secondary schools, provision should be made in every area for teaching in these subjects." ( 12 ) In all this we are agreed. What we ask is that opportunities may be given so that our future citizens, in whatever class of society they are born, may be able to extend their knowledge over the spheres of ancient history and of ancient languages, and that the finest literature in the world, some of the greatest experience of the world, the history of the empire which is nearest akin to our own in its various problems, should be accessible to those who are capable of profiting by it at first hand, and in the languages in which all this knowledge is enshrined. The other parts of our subject I will leave to the speakers who follow me." Lord BEYCE : " I have now the pleasure of asking Mr. Edwards, who is the Headmaster of the Bradford Grammar School, to say a few words on the matter." Mr. EDWARDS : "Mr. Fisher, Lord Bryceand Sir Frederic Kenyon have dealt with the general consideration of the subject, and I do not want to do more in that connection except just to emphasise paragraph 3 from the point of view of one who lives in a Pro- vincial town. No one in that position can fail to realise the growing importance of Municipal Government and the increasing necessity that our leading citizens, and indeed as many citizens as possible, should be led to clearness of views and balance of mind and a wide mental outlook. Now the lack of these qualities at the present time is perfectly obvious. It is distressingly obvious to the statesman, and perhaps consolingly obvious to the politician ; and if classical education does contribute, as we believe it does contribute, to giving those qualities, then I think it will not be a mistaken policy on the part of the State to provide facilities for it. I shall speak only of course of the boys the ladies can speak of the girls who go to our Local Secondary Schools and especi- ally those who come from the Public Elementary Schools. The well-to-do parent can always get a good classical education for his boy by sending him to a good classical boarding school, but the poorer boys in very many cases indeed are cut off from all opportunities of obtaining a classical education, simply because there are no facilities for it at the local school to which alone they can afford to go. I am, therefore, going to deal more particularly with three points. First the capacity of these boys for a classical ( 13 ) education. I am going to try to show that they have a capacity for classics equal to that of any other type of boy ; and then I am going to try to show that where facilities are provided there is, at any rate, a certain readiness on the part of these boys to take advantage of them ; and lastly I hope to show, in some cases, how inadequate the existing provision is. Now with regard to the first point, that is, the capacity of the boys of this type to take up a classical education, I think, in the short time at my disposal, the best proof that I can give is to adduce concrete instances. I will take my own school; you know that Bradford Grammar School is a school of about 640 boys, and as you know it is a very democratic school. There are sons of local professional men, there are sons of well-to-do parents, especially well-to-do at the present time in many cases, and besides these there is a very large number indeed of Public Elementary School boys, who have mostly come into the school with free scholarships provided by the City Council, so that in Bradford we have exactly the type of boy who is under con- sideration to-day. I suppose it is generally admitted that the highest standard to which a school education in classics can reach is the standard required for open scholarships and exhibitions at Oxford and Cambridge. I have looked up the statistics at Bradford Grammar School for the past ten years and I find that 102 scholarships have been won, 14 for Modern History, 25 for Mathematics, 30 for Science, and 33 for Classics. You will notice that the number of scholarships won in Classics is greater than the number won in any other subject. The important point is that, with one or two exceptions, these scholarships have been won by boys who would never have had any opportunity of having a classical education if Latin and Greek had not been taught at their local schools. Further, of these 33 classical scholarships, 23 were boys who held free places in the schools. I do not say that every one of these boys had been to a Public Elementary School, but by far the greater proportion had. As I am not talking to an audience of Yorkshiremen, I may venture to say that there is no reason to suppose that the Bradford Public Elementary School or even the Yorkshire Public Elementary School boy is phenomenally superior ** to the rest of the country, and therefore these figures, to my mind at any rate, prove conclusively, first that these boys have as great a capacity for classics as for any other subject, and secondly, that they have as great a capacity for classics as boys of any other type. Further, fully one-third I am understating the case of the total number of boys at Bradford Grammar School who take Latin and Greek hold free places in the school. As a parent has a perfectly free option to put his boy on the Modern or the Classical side, that fact seems to indicate that there is at least a desire to profit and take advantage of the classical education when it is offered. But if a classical education is a good thing and we know that with you there is no need to press that point and if there is capacity for it and readiness to take advantage of it when pro- vided, then I think there is a just claim that the State should provide facilities for it. But as a matter of fact what are the facilities at the present time ? I have taken Bradford not only because I have first-hand knowledge of it, but because the conditions there do very closely approximate to the very conditions which these proposals aim at producing. There is a Classical School in the area of accessi- bility at which scholarships are provided out of public funds, scholarships covering full fees, books and in certain instances a maintenance allowance, and the result is that the poorest boy from the Elementary School if he has ability and if he desires a classical education can obtain it ; that is, if he has the good fortune to live in the Educational area of the County Borough of Bradford. Now I come to the importance of the words ' area of accessi- bility ' and the necessity of some provision for a combined scheme for the transference of scholarships from one area to another. Step across the border of the Borough of Bradford, in one direc- tion less than two miles from the centre of the City and from the school a penny tram ride of ten minutes' duration and no boy has the chance of obtaining a classical education unless he can afford to pay full fees and expenses out of his own pocket (or out of the pocket of his parents of course) , simply because he is then in another area of Educational Administration, and there is no ( 15 ) accessible school which gives classical instruction within the control of that Education Authority, and there is no combined scheme which will enable him to be transferred into the Educa- tional Authority of Bradford. Now this is a case where there is a school within the area of accessibility, but I believe I should be right in saying that in the whole of the West Hiding area of Yorkshire outside the County Boroughs there are only one or two ; I would almost go so far as to say there are practically no schools giving classical education. I cannot speak with definiteness on this point. I am only convinced that you, sir, will be easily able to get the statistics from your officials at once. The Educational Authority of the West Riding area is not the least progressive Educational Authority in the country, and I think it is reasonable to infer that this typifies the condition of the country generally. The newer municipal secondary schools and the corresponding schools in the country areas do not teach Greek ; to a certain extent they do teach Latin, very largely because of the regulation made by the Board of Education ; and the effect of that regulation shows what a great influence you have. If you suggest that a subject shall be taught, people begin to think there is some value in it. From the smaller Grammar Schools too, where they have been taken over by the Local Authorities, Greek has practically disappeared ; but I do not think there will be any grave reluctance at any attempt to revive it. But even in the County Boroughs, where there generally is a local Classical School, the provision of scholarships out of public funds is quite inadequate. Bradford I feel is an exception. I feel that even here on this occasion it would be ungrateful of me if I did not testify to what I consider was the enlightened policy of the Bradford Education Authority, but I wish you would examine the statistics in this respect with regard to County Boroughs generally, and for that matter with regard to the Counties. For instance, how many scholarships provided out of public funds are tenable at Leeds Grammar School or the School at Sheffield ? I cannot speak at all with any definite knowledge of these places, but I can with regard to one County Borough, that of Halifax. The Halifax Town Council provides ( 16 ) plenty of free scholarships to its municipal secondary schools, where no Greek is taught, but only ten scholarships, ten in all, not ten a year, to the Grammar School, which is the only school in the district for miles round, I might say, where Greek is taught. And yet that is a school which is one of the Board of Education Grant Schools and it is a school of which the Halifax 'Town Council is the Local Education Authority. These ten scholarships work out at an average of two scholarships a year, as a matter of fact, so that so far as provision from the public funds is concerned, that means that only two boys a year from the whole of the Elementary Schools of Halifax have any chance of obtaining a classical education whatever. Now can it be said that any national system of education is satisfactory where these conditions exist ? We believe that our scheme will go far to remedy these evils. We believe the scheme is reasonable and is feasible. We do not wish to impose a classical curriculum on all schools ; we do not wish to make it compulsory on all boys ; we are ready to recognise that the demand for a classical education will never be in the nature of things so great as a demand for more modern subjects, but the demand is there and it is in bulk considerable. All we ask for is facilities, first, that in every area of accessi- bility there should be a school giving adequate instruction in Latin and Greek. The area of accessibility may be quite large ; boys for instance come into Bradford every day from Harrogate, a distance of twenty-five miles. That may be an extreme instance, although Manchester and Birmingham can match it, but in any case it may be quite large. Secondly that scholarships shall be provided out of public funds to these schools ; out of public funds, not out of the funds of the school, as the school cannot possibly afford to give free education to any more scholars or even education at a reduced rate. These scholarships should of course cover tuition, books, and travelling allowances. And last of all, that by a combined scheme there should be some means of transferring scholarships granted by one Education Authority so that they are tenable in the area of another. These proposals form the gist of our scheme, and we think if they are carried a classical education will be brought within the reach of every boy the opportunity ( 17 ) for it will be brought within the reach of every boy whether he is rich or poor." Lord BRYCE : " I will ask Mr. Mansbridge, the representative of the Workers' Educational Association, to say a few words now." Mr. MANSBRIDGE : " Mr. President, it is my privilege to speak to you as one who has concerned himself for many years with the development of education among working men and women and their children. I am sorry I am not privileged to speak to you on behalf of the Workers' Educational Association, unfortunately, being no longer Secretary of that body, but what I have to say is based on my twelve years' experience as Secretary. In the nature of the case I have had little to do with the promo- tion of the study of the Greek and Latin languages, although I have had something to do with the provision of opportunities for the spread of knowledge concerning the Greek and Roman civilisations. Working people are displaying an increasing interest in such subjects as Greek Democracy and Greek Moral and Political Thought. The use of translations of Plato and other writers is increasing among such students as those of the Uni- versity Tutorial Class. It is not too much to say that there are to-day many working people in all parts of the country who associate the name of Greece with the cause of humanism, and who eagerly seize every opportunity of extending their acquaint- ance with classical civilisations ; and this in spite of deep-rooted ignorant prejudice in one sense against a nation which had such a sharp division of the classes. All this will have its influence in shaping the form of education which working people desire for their children, and will in time produce a widespread if not intense demand for the study of the classical languages. It is in view of this that I desire to endorse the plea, and it is indeed the only plea that I am competent to endorse, that the Board of Education and the Local Education Authorities should ' make such provision for the teaching of Latin and Greek in every local area as will place these studies everywhere within the reach of pupils from all classes of the nation,' although I would not emphasise my endorsement more strongly than I would for a plea ( 18 ) for the accessibility of modern languages or science, or indeed for any other classical languages if so strong a case could be made for them as for Latin and Greek. Roughly speaking, I suppose it is true that opportunities for the study of Latin and Greek have been confined almost entirely of late years to the children of well-to-do parents this is of course more true of Greek than of Latin although owing to the per- sistence of good Grammar Schools and the establishment of certain municipal secondary schools, the number of children of poor parents who have had opportunity to study Latin has been steadily increasing. It is probable that opportunities for the study of Greek have not increased. I am told that in the county, not the educational area, of Lancashire, very few schools provide opportunities for Greek probably only eight, including Manchester Grammar School and two Roman Catholic Schools, in the whole county of Lancashire. It has been suggested by some that the Public Schools will provide sufficient opportunity in the future for the maintenance of this study, but that, in effect, would mean, unless radical alterations are made in the near future (and they are unlikely), that only the well-to-do would enjoy it. That, obviously, would be an injustice which working men and women, developing as they are in appreciation of education, would not tolerate for one moment. It is unthinkable from the point of view certainly from which I speak. It is generally remarked that many students of Latin and Greek, even though possessing University degrees, have no aptitude for classical studies, and seldom, if ever, get more from them than a certain mental discipline which, it is argued, could be obtained more profitably in other ways. I should like to see a redistribution of the opportunities for classical studies, and the necessity for studying Latin and Greek removed from those to whom they are at best simply a means of passing certain entrance examinations, whether to the Univer- sities or professions. The opportunities should be open to those whose minds are potentially at least full of passionate interest, and who would utilise them for the development of joyous and powerful scholarship in the world. I use the term ' joyous ' deliberately because it has always seemed to me that the best of those engaged iu all useful occupa- ( 19 ) tions will find true joy in communion with the great masters of thought. It has been well said by Mr. Snow of Oxford that ' literary studies ought to be the studies of the poor.' They afford an opportunity to reach the best things of life in the scanty leisure which industrial life affords, and may even brighten the hours of toil, facilitating rather than hindering the performance of their monotonous tasks. They banish banal pleasures, and Yicious thoughts have no place in their presence. It may be argued that a knowledge of language is not essential to the satisfaction of this desire, but it seems to me that there must be representative working men and women who do know the languages well, if the working classes as a whole are to derive the benefit from them that they might easily do. No one can become a successful missionary unless he feels the joy of his gospel, and it is just this joy I should imagine which is apt to evaporate from even the best of translations. Of course working men and women are already to be found who study Latin and Greek for the sake of the sheer joy which they get from reading the master- pieces in the original. In my own experience I have met several such, and particularly one foundry worker who made creditable translations from Horace and Pindar. It is well known that there is a great deal of study of the Greek Testament amongst working men and women. I remember fixing up opportunities for a railway shunter to get to work upon his New Testament Greek (and it was not merely confined to that) with a Fellow at a college of your University, Mr. President. I am sure there will be a large demand for the study of the Greek Testament whilst the Christian religion has any force in England. For myself, I could wish that the Greek Testament were more com- monly used in classical study, and that is a belief which I find widespread, if not unanimous. It is, of course, used in some public schools. It will be obvious that I do not wish scholarship to be confined to those who are able to give their lives to it, but that I want men engaged in all occupations to have the opportunity of developing it. I hope the day may come when a working man may be able to enjoy Homer in the original and excite no more comment than his enjoyment of Shakespeare does now. Why should it ? ( 20 ) It would be a calamity beyond expression if the study of the classical languages, so entrancing not only in their construction but in the doors which they open to the place of understanding, were confined to those who could undertake it as a luxury or as the result of exceptionally good fortune, such as living in the City of Bradford, and not just over the border. The permanent continuance of development of a scholastic caste, speaking a lan- guage and making allusions not to be understood of others, would be disastrous, exercising, as it would, influences working against the social and intellectual unity of the nation and tending to narrow the range and outlook of classical studies themselves. I remember a statesman, a scholar statesman, quoting Greek in the House of Commons. There were remarks from certain benches in the House, and I imagine it is more difficult to make classical allusions in the House since then than it was before. But apart from all this, and this is perhaps the point I really want to make for practical purposes, those who exercise control over the entry to certain occupations in life demand evidence of the study of Latin and Greek. This alone seems to me to justify my contention that Latin and Greek shall be accessible in every local area to all classes of the community. There is no opportunity, nor indeed is there necessity, for me to deal with the matter in relation to many occupations, but there is one in particular to which I desire to allude. It is the concern of the churches to draw to their sacred ministry men of all classes, but, partly owing to the inequalities of our educational system, far too few men of the working classes have had opportunity to study Latin and Greek at an age sufficiently early to enable them to achieve that excellence which even if not essential is desirable. * A lad who is going in for the ministry,' writes a leading member of the Free Churches and incidentally a head- master, 'needs to live with his Greek Testament. It is impos- sible for him to know it too well.' There are few more pathetic figures than those of men who otherwise are highly equipped and, having obtained the opportunity of a University Course, torture themselves at a late age over the initial study of Latin and Greek, whether they are striving to fit themselves for the ministry, or whether because of their capacity they have been given an oppor- tunity of a University Course. ( 21 ) I am perplexed by the difficulties which are consequent upon the admission of such a plea as I make. It is difficult to deter- mine whether there shall be classical and modern schools in the area, or whether some schools shall serve all the interests of a general education in its breadth, having sides serving the interests of classical languages, modern languages and science respectively ; but the essential point is that there shall be one school in every local area which gives opportunity for the study of both Latin and Greek, and there should be not merely facilities for but actual policy to secure the transference of approved boys and girls from other schools to this school at the right age. If main- tenance allowances, scholarships or hostels prove to be helpful, their provision must be extended or instituted. Again my plea is as much for the scholars in the village school as in the town school. It is difficult for a headmaster who has no classical knowledge to discover the capacity of boys for these studies. I wish that every school master had a working knowledge of Latin, for he would then have opportunity to train the lads of parts, and girls who lived remote from towns, in the beginnings of classical know- ledge at small expense. In this way there should be revived one of the most interesting and satisfactory features in the education of a past day. I am quite sure that if the Board of Education and the Local Authorities strive in co-operation to remove the difficulties which are consequent upon the plea of accessibility, much progress will be made even at the outset. It is characteristic of the States of Australia that they strive by additional care and additional expenditure to equalise the educational opportunity of the son of the boundary rider, working a thousand miles from the capital city, with the opportunity of the child living under the shadow of the University. That is the characteristic which working men and women expect to see more pronounced in English educational administration, and it is par- ticularly necessary, it seems to me, in its application to studies such as these we are considering to-day, which, because of the importance which is being attached at present to more directly useful studies, and perhaps because the necessity for them has been unduly exaggerated in times past, in the wrong places, are ( 22 ) in danger of being forgotten by those new forces pressing for the education of the children of the people, or left over till a time which seems to be less pressing. Such a time may easily prove to be too late for their full operation, the complete operation which we desire for social and political life and religious life too." Lord BRYCE : " Miss Limebeer, who is Principal of the High School for Girls at Pendleton close to Manchester, will now address you." Miss LIMEBEER : " Mr. Fisher, I have to confine my remarks to classical teaching in Girls' Schools, and so I will say nothing about the general aspects of such teaching and the training capacity which I fully believe in and value, nor shall I lay any special stress on the elementary child's career, because I do feel that these children have become so utterly a part of our school system that what applies to the whole school applies no less to them. (I should like to say here that the last speech was an in- spiration to those who teach in schools.) Just a few practical points with regard to girls. Some girls are really born Latinists and at once make for a classical degree with honours ; others are going on to other Arts ; many more hope to take up medical work, and whatever the regulations for entrance may be, we feel there ought to be some Latin at the back of all these girls' minds. I have been told by a science mistress that ordinary pupils at school are very much afraid of tackling new words if they do not know any Latin. There is a great difference in the English literature of a VI Form girl if she takes Latin and if she does not. With regard to the future professions for women we have long lists of these, but surely the two professions that will far out- weigh all the others, after the war, will still be teaching and secretarial work ; and teaching, and certainly the higher forms of secretarial work, seem to me to need that clearness of thought and expression which we make one of our aims and hopes in teaching classics. Therefore it is hard lines that Latin should not be available for all girls. It should be within their reach though not compulsory. One way of doing this is suggested in the first resolution submitted to the Board. As for Greek, probably a comparatively small number of girls learn it at school, but again it should be available. For ( 23 ) one thing I think that the present Latin teaching in Girls' Schools must be suffering, to a certain extent, from the number of Latin teachers without Greek who have control of the Latin right up to the top of a big school. They are most useful as second in their department, but it is a pity that they should control the whole of the teaching. There is one practical difficulty that will arise after the war in connection with Latin, especially in Girls' Schools. If girls take up secretarial work, they will often need modern languages for all kinds of international intercourse, commercial and other- wise. It seems to me madness to put more modern languages into our crowded school curriculum. I have even heard Spanish and Russian mentioned in this connection. What we really want are post-schools for languages, with any amount of transla- tion from and into the language, very little philology, no side issues, the main business being to write and speak the language ; and these schools should not be private ventures, but should be under the segis of the University ; they should have the support of the Local Authority, and the encouragement and support of the Board of Education. There seems to be a tendency to talk about education as if it stopped at the age of nineteen or earlier. A little very closely packed study after school will do a great deal if people will only realise it. The question of the curriculum is one which we must face, and in what follows I cannot confine my remarks only to classics ; we cannot think in watertight compartments, but must deal with the whole question, and that is the loss of power and the loss of standard at present in schools in which all subjects are studied at the same pressure. It is not difficult to solve the problem for the dull girl, nor for the fairly good girl who perhaps drops one or two of the deeper subjects after two or three years, nor for the brilliant girl. But the mass of really clever girls whom we introduce into the world is of immense importance to the future of the nation, and I am not sure that we are doing our best for them ; they lose power through this dissipation of i nterest. I am not asking exactly for a narrower curriculum, but I am asking that certain subjects should be limited, and others have ( 24 ) more chances ; and this scheme of transferring scholarships seems, in a way I have hardly time to indicate, to make it possible for every pupil to have a chance, not only of studying any subject, but also of making a more intensive study of it, if she shows any special aptitude. Schools used to be allowed to be weak in certain subjects, or rather to have a limited aim in certain subjects. I wish they had this again. Nowadays the problem is worse than ever. There are many home duties which the girls have to perform ; domestic work is taken seriously at school, music examinations run riot, and there are other problems that boys' schools do not have to face. Still in spite of that I want to keep Latin and to make it really good Latin. In Girls' Schools you can get good value out of Latin for individual girls, even if it does not go on for more than two or three years. Apart from the girl who really does good matriculation work in Latin, there will always be a number of girls who for one reason or another do not carry on to matriculation standard. Real good can be got out of those two or three years' study, and it would be a great pity if a school which could not carry on Latin beyond an elementary stage had to drop the subject. The girls like it, the parents are tract- able about it and would be sorry to see it dropped. The Board's Circular 849 gives two grades of school leaving examinations. The first hardly solves the difficulty of the crowded pre-matriculation years, but the second should be a great help to us in raising the standard of the work of those girls who pass from us to the University and return as teachers to our schools. As it is, far too many pupils just manage to get through the matriculation, take a Pass degree or an Honours degree of a low standard, and then attempt to teach Matriculation Latin, with disastrous results. This higher leaving examination will be a good starting-point for an Honours course. It will, moreover, help a school to be strong in one subject, and that strength will not only affect the subject concerned, but will react on the whole work of the school. My last point refers to the second resolution on the paper, that the Board be asked to regard a training in Latin language and literature, and at least some knowledge of the typical parts of Greek literature, as an important and generally necessary ( 25 ) element in the training of teachers of English literature. We all admit that people can speak good English without classics. Of course, there are people of genius, originality, deep interest in some big thing, vivid and wide experience of life who write excellent English unaided by Latin or Greek. But the qualities I have just mentioned are not always apparent in the candidates for posts in the secondary schools. We have to deal with what we can get, and a great many headmistresses, not only classical headmistresses, are not satisfied with the result of the present Honours English School. There are brilliant exceptions, first- rate Honours English graduates who are excellent, but I am speaking of the mass. We think that there is too much Anglo-Saxon, too much re- search into corners of literature that might as well remain obscure for a time and are hardly worth looking into. There is no real grip of language or of the essentials of literature. What we want is a foundation of classics rather than a superstructure of research. Many of us would like University students to have two years of classics, and then one or two years of English Literature on the top of this. The purely classical mistress would want to teach classics only. She could teach English, but she would be better equipped if, after her classical course, she had switched her thoughts off on to English for one or two years, either two complete years, or first a year of specialised English study and then a year devoted to training for a Teacher's Diploma with English literature, so that her powers of teaching and her know- ledge of her subject would progress at the same time. I think, however, that the Council would support me in saying that we do not want to urge or insist upon this as the only training for an English teacher. Some people prefer the existing arrange- ments. We think they are wrong, but are quite prepared to let both courses of training stand on their own merits. We shall all, however, agree as to the immense importance of the teaching of English. It is the subject which is taught throughout every secondary school of every type, and every elementary school in the whole nation." Lord BRYCE : " The last of the deputation who will have a few words to say to you, Mr. Fisher, is Dr. Conway, who is Professor of Latin in the University of Manchester." ( 26 ) Professor CON WAY : " The only possible excuse I have for adding anything to what has been already said is that what comes at the tail shall, if possible, have something of a practical sting. I want to draw your attention extremely briefly to two points which I think have a close practical bearing. The first is that in any steps which are taken for this end, I am quite certain the Board can count upon the cordial co-operation of the Local Education Authorities. The people whose only conception of education is education as practised in Public Schools often think the member of the Local Education Authority is a rather exigent person whose only idea is to care for the rates and establish classes in reading, writing and arithmetic. These are the schools which are most grossly incompetent. The members of Local Education Authorities have the keenest admiration for their work. The very fact that such requests as we are making this morning should be possible in the world is to my mind an extraordinary evidence of the zeal and generosity with which Local Education Authorities have worked for higher education, and also, if you will allow me to say so, of the enlightened guidance which we have received from the permanent officers of this great Department. I am quite sure that the way to persuade a Local Education Authority to do something is to make it clear that it is a step in advance. If incidentally you can point out that it will bring more distinction to this particular Local Authority than to the Local Authority in the neighbouring town or county you will clinch your case. They are not in the least afraid of higher standards in my experience. Secondly I want to say that there is at the present moment a very great danger of waste of public money by driving a large number of what for brevity I will call round boys and girls into square holes, and forcing a boy or girl by the accident of extraneous encouragement to take up subjects for which he has no par- ticular taste. The national army of intellect, which is not too large, as the other speakers have pointed out, demands that the natural bent of a boy or girl should be carefully studied, and he should be carefully led to that form of work which will make him the most useful citizen. You can only do that with success if you enlist the sympathy of his schoolmasters from the beginning; ( 27 ) especially his primary schoolmaster. In some parts of the country with which I am acquainted there is a positive reluctance on the part of primary schoolmasters to let their boys go on to secondary schools, because they say ' you are robbing our primary schools of our best boys.' In the County of London and New- castle-on-Tyne they have a scheme by which the boys are picked out it is not by any means a universally adopted scheme with the help of their primary teacher. He follows their career with interest and takes as much pride in their getting a scholarship at a secondary school as a headmaster of a secondary school in their getting a scholarship at Oxford or Cambridge. I have only one thing to add. No one who has listened to the remarkable speeches we have had this morning will doubt the enthusiasm with which classical studies are pursued by children who come from poor homes. Classical study is in fact the romance of the poor. The access to that romance is at present obtained at rather too heavy a cost. It has been my privilege to teach many boys who have done well, and distinguished themselves afterwards in classics, from such homes. I have in mind four or five in particular who have naturally gone into teaching themselves. Out of those four or five, one, having attained the head-mastership of a very large and important school in a very wide area, died at the age of thirty-five, and one other, who was recently holding a distinguished Chair in one of the Dominions, has just been obliged to resign his Chair in order to fight a disease which besets those whose youth has given them plenty of intellectual stimulus, but too little food and too little fresh air. I venture to hope that after what Mr. Edwards has said the area of accessibility will not be construed in too largely a geo- graphical sense, so that the boys and girls who come into our scheme, although they may be encouraged, and encouraged I hope by liberal grants for maintenance, to attend a classical school, shall not have to do so at the cost of spending in the train hours that they ought to be spending in physical exercises. I hope they will be encouraged to travel by tram rather than by train, and that the time that they will spend in either will be measured by minutes rather than by hours." ( 28 ) THE PRESIDENT'S REPLY THE PRESIDENT : " Lord Bryce, Ladies and Gentlemen, you have come here on behalf of the Council of the Classical Associa- tion to represent to me the just place of the study of Classical Antiquity in our scheme of National Education. You do not claim any special privilege for Classical Studies. You expressly realise the importance of an education in Science, and in the modern Humanities, and you realise also that in the past the classical studies have enjoyed a position of prerogative which you no longer desire to defend. Your point, as I understand it, is this, that in our ancient Public Schools, classical studies are forced upon many boys who are quite unfit to profit by them, but that on the other hand in the Municipal and County Schools the facilities for becoming acquainted with the literature, the language, and the history of Greece and Rome are at present deplorably insufficient ; and you desire the Board to use its influence in the direction of making such provision for the teaching of Latin and Greek in every local area as will place those studies everywhere within reach of pupils from all classes of the nation. Now I am cordially in agreement with the members of this Deputation as to everything which has been said with respect to the great value of classical studies as an instrument of humane education. A study of classical antiquity not only introduces us to some of the most beautiful literature in the world, but it has been a very living and progressive branch of intellectual activity in the past generation. I remember very well that when I took my degree I came to the deliberate conclusion that there was no f ui'ther room for fruitful research in Greek history, and in token of that precipitate and erroneous opinion I parted with my copy of Miiller's Fragments of Greek Historians to my friend Professor Gilbert Murray. Immediately afterwards Sir Frederic Kenyon discovered among the papyri of the British Museum Aristotle's long lost Constitution of Athens, and from that moment onwards there has been a succession of discoveries in the field of Greek Antiquity more thrilling and fruitful than any which the world has known since the days of Aldus and Poggio. I feel myself, and I know that it is the feeling of the Board, that ( 29 ) the complete disappearance of Greek Education from this country would be a great and irredeemable loss and that the study of Classical Antiquity stands on an entirely different footing from any highly specialised pursuit, such as Hebrew, let us say, or Armenian. I have already outlined to the House of Commons a scheme for the development of our Secondary Schools, and I think that the new Kegulations for our Secondary Schools coupled with the new grants which it is proposed to attach to advanced courses in those Secondary Schools will go some way to meet the desires expressed by this Deputation. We propose to encourage advanced courses in all the main sub- jects of secondary education, in Science, in Mathematics, in the Modern Humanities, and in Classics, and we hope that the schools offering these advanced classes will be so co-ordinated that every great subject of secondary education may be accessible to every student in a given ' area of accessibility.' We also contemplate a system of transfers. Of course the Deputation will realise that a system of transfers is a somewhat difficult matter to arrange. There will be a great number of practical obstacles to overcome before such a system can be brought into smooth and continuous operation. My feeling is that the plan can only really succeed when the secondary schools in any given ' area of accessibility ' shall have established special reputations for themselves in special branches of study ; and of course a system of transfers, to be successful, would have to be accompanied by a system of scholarships and maintenance allowances. I ought perhaps here to interpolate a warning. The Board is not in a position to impose curricula upon schools. We can of course through our system of grants bring influence to bear upon schools, but as George Washington said c influence is not Government ' ; and although it is the policy of the Board to secure the development in every area of advanced courses in all the main branches of secondary-school study, we shall have to depend upon the co-operation of the governing bodies of the schools and upon the co-operation of the Local Education Authorities, if full effect is to be given to our desires. I notice the Deputation laid stress upon the transfer of all able ( 30 ) pupils from Primary to Secondary Schools at an age early enough to em ble them to profit duly by a Secondary Course, and on their remaining at school long enough to complete it. Well, the policy of the Board has for long been directed towards these two objects. The Board has tried to induce children to leave the Elementary School for the Secondary School at a sufficiently early age, and has attempted to stimulate the length of school life. We have been perhaps more successful in securing the first object than the second ; but progress has been made in both directions and the Deputation may be assured that neither of these two important objects will escape our consideration. You are also concerned to point out how important it is that a knowledge of classical literature should be possessed by the teachers of English in our schools. No doubt it is ideally desirable that a teacher of English literature in its higher forms should be ac- quainted with the masterpieces of the Greek and Latin genius, but the Board, as I think the Deputation will realise, could not insist upon a knowledge of Greek and Latin literature from every teacher of English literature in our schools. One final observation. I notice that the Classical Association speaks of the Municipal and Council Schools as being directed more narrowly to material and industrial well-being, and less to the effective study of literature and history. I think that the Board would not accept such a statement without some qualifica- tion. It is true of course that the provision for the humane studies has not hitherto been so effective in some of these newer schools as it has been made by long and established tradition in many of the older schools ; still there is a steady progress towards a better general education in the County Schools and in the Municipal Schools ; the level is being steadily raised, and I hope very much that one of the results of the new grants to Secondary Education will be to enable us to raise it still further. After all success in secondary-school education depends upon the quality of the teacher, and the quality of the teacher has some relation to the scale of his remuneration." Lord BRYCE : "On behalf of the Deputation I have to thank you for the very careful and patient attention which you have given to the case which we have presented to you and for the ( 31 ) assurance that you have given of the care which will be devoted by the Board ; and as the Board is somewhat impersonal and its members are not so familiar to us as you are, we attach even more importance to the assurance you have given us that you are in eympathy with the general objects which we come before you to advocate, and that they will have your own careful consideration. I should like to express the fullest concurrence I think I may venture to do this on behalf of the Deputation with the last remark you made with regard to the teacher. Any attempt to increase and improve classical teaching will of course very largely depend upon what is done for the teachers themselves. As you are aware there are countries, such as Scotland, in which a know- ledge of Classics, and especially of Latin, is far more generally diffused among Elementary teachers than it is in England, and one of the things which we hope, from the plan which you presented to the House of Commons the other day, is that the improved prospects opened up to the Elementary teacher will have their effect in, by degrees, raising the standard and range of attainments of the teachers in Elementary as well as in other schools. I beg to thank you for the very great care with which you have listened to us." The Deputation then withdrew. The following Memorandum, drawn up by a member of the Council, was, with the approval of the Council, forwarded to the President along with the proposals of the Association : " It is desired to call attention to a serious danger at the present time that the Classics, and in particular Greek, may lose the posi- tion in national education and the influence on national life which we believe they ought to have. In the past they may have been taught to too many boys ; it would be an ill compensation if in the future they were taught to too few. Such a danger is real. Com- pared with science or modern languages they start at a disad- vantage. A parent, however enlightened his views, in choosing his son's education is bound to take practical as well as ideal reasons into account, and to consider whether a particular course will enable the boy to earn his bread. Now modern languages are of obvious use in Commerce, Industry and Banking, in the Diplomatic and Consular services, and in the teaching profession ; ( 32 ) they are valuable in the Army, the Navy and the Law, and there is no walk of life, except perhaps the Church, in which they are not an immediate monetary asset. The immediate uses of science in the modern world are hardly fewer. But with Latin and Greek it is otherwise if we ignore their influence on mind and character, and think only of their obvious mercantile and professional uses- They have some professional value for the future lawyer or minister of religion ; they will enable a man to be a schoolmaster > so long as Latin and Greek occupy an important place in our education ; and while the State, recognising their value, gives weight to them in the Civil Service Examinations, they will attract many of the best brains in the country. But it is only to the last three of these ways of life that they lead directly and by an unbroken bridge ; and in the last, and most important, of them their position depends directly on the State. Elsewhere they have no direct market value ; and though they afford, to those who are adapted to profit by them, an unequalled training of mind and character, which in the long run will be a commercial as well as a spiritual asset, they are not, like scientific or modern languages, of immediate use, and, in the present state of public opinion, they are sometimes regarded with disfavour and suspicion. Of the two classical languages, Greek is at present in most danger. Our own and other countries afford striking examples of its tendency to disappear before the competition of subjects which are commercially more paying. The following table shows the place of the Classics in American secondary education (figures taken from Commissioner of Education's Report) : Total No. of Pupils in Public Pupils Pupils High Schools and Academies. taking Latin. taking Greek. 1889-90 . . 297,894 100,144 12,869 1897-98 . . 554,825 274,293 24,994 1909-10 . . 1,039,461 405,502 10,739 It will be noted that Latin has retained, and indeed improved, its position in these years. Greek shows a rise up to the year 1897-98. The immediate cause of its subsequent decline was that between 1897 and 1904 many important colleges in the North Central States ceased to require Greek for a degree. But the general deeper causes are admitted to be the attractiveness of ( 33 ) modern subjects for those who propose to enter business, and a falling-off in the candidates for the ministry. The figures for France (taken from the Board of Education Special Report) point in the same direction. Before 1902 Latin and Greek were necessary for entrance to ' the Faculty of Letters at the Uni- versities, to the medical and legal professions, and to a vast number of minor administrative appointments.' In that year this ceased to be the case. As a result, in 1901, 18,045 boys in the Colleges and Lycees took Greek; in 1908, 4,155 boys took it. Latin did not lose ground, the explanation given being that many families in determining the education of their children united Latin and Science, thus combining ' les preoccupations utilitaires tres jegi times et le souci d'une culture plus desinteressee. 5 Greek, to its advantage, shook off a number of unsuitable pupils. But it is a question whether it has not lost along with them many students who would profit by it. It is now confined largely to boys ' qui . . . se destinent au Professorat ' ; others take it because their parents have learnt it and consider it indispensable to a liberal education, or because they dislike Science. It still enjoys an important protection, for it is necessary, with Latin, to the degree of licencie es lettres. Without this it may be fairly conjectured that it would have suffered far more seriously. The two countries in which the Classics still hold a pre- dominant place in education are Germany and Belgium not the worst educated nations in Europe. In the former, in 1911, 240,000 out of 400,000 students in secondary schools were learning Latin ; and of these, 170,000 were learning Greek as well. Thus, the Classics, though they have lost ground in recent years, still maintain a commanding position in Germany. This is chiefly due to the fact that till 1901 the University was closed to all but pupils from the Gymnasium, with the exception of students of Mathematics, Natural Science, and Modern Languages, from whom Greek and Latin ceased to be required after 1870. This rule enabled the Classics to take a very strong hold of German education. They have maintained it since 1901 (when the Universities became open without reserve to pupils from the Realschulen) owing partly to the ubiquitousness of the Gymnasium, partly to its great prestige in a country which had always believed in secondary education, and has for so long been accustomed to ( 34 ) identify it with the study of Latin and Greek. The figures for secondary education in Belgium, which are less familiar, are given below in full : Total Nos. in Secondary .Schools. Boys taking Ancient Humanities (including Greek). Boys taking Latin Humanities (including Latin but not Greek). Boya taking Modern Humanities (including neither Greek nor Latin). Athenees . Ecoles dirigees par les eveques Ecoles dirigees par les Congregations Colleges Communaux Colleges patronnes . 6,322 8,297 9,510 782 958 1,776 5,504 4,329 282 879 507 30 4,039 2,793 5,181 470 79 Totals . 25,869 12,770 537 12,562 Finally, Scotland, for which the figures are supplied by Professor Harrower of Aberdeen. Here Greek ceased to be compulsory for entrance to the Universities after the year 1891-2 (Latin is still necessary). In the year 1890-1, 934 students took Greek, in the year 1904-5 this was reduced to 320. The numbers have fallen still further since that date. It is said that the loss is principally in Pass Students, and Honours Students have kept their numbers up. This is a result which to many believers in Greek will not seem unsatisfactory. It should, however, be remembered that Greek still enjoys a certain protection, owing to the fact that many of the most promising Scotch students proceed to Oxford and Cambridge, where Greek is at present a compulsory subject. It is very doubtful whether many pupils take it, except those who have this end or else a career in the Civil Service in view, or who are destined for the ministry. In calling attention to these facts, we wish to make it clear that we are not advocating ' compulsory Greek,' on which this Asso- ciation has always refrained from expressing an opinion, and to which many of its members are strongly opposed. 1 But 1 By " compulsory Greek " is meant the system under which a know- ledge of Greek is necessary for entrance to Oxford and Cambridge. On the other hand much is to be said for a provision that at certain Universities a knowledge of Greek should be required from students taking certain courses; Philosophy, Law and English Literature, ( 35 ) we desire to emphasise the precariousness of the position which classical study, and in particular Greek, holds in modern educa- tion, and the danger that so-called utilitarian considerations, alien from the true interests of education and ultimately of national life itself, may destroy or reduce to insignificance an element in our educational system, on the importance of which it is not necessary before this Board to dwell ; and, while we think that great care should be taken not to teach the Classics to pupils for whom they are unsuitable, we believe that it is in the interests of the country that they should keep such a place in our educational system as will enable them to act as a leavening force in national life. We would therefore urge the importance of securing that in the reconstruction of national education no measures should be taken which would unfairly prejudice the position of the Classics. Of such possibilities we will give one example. If the recom- mendations for the establishment of Scholarships in Science put forward in the Interim Report of the Consultative Committee of the Board of Education on Scholarships are carried out, it is obvious that the heavy endowment there proposed will attract a large number of students, and in so far give an advantage to Science over other subjects. If effect is given to the proposals of the Committee, which suggest grants for scholarships to be held by Science Students at a University, it would seem just that a classical training should not prejudice a boy who wishes to compete for these scholarships, and that the examination should permit boys who have gone through the ordinary classical course to compete on equal terms with those whose education has been mainly in Science. There is much in itself to commend the plan of building a modern science education on a foundation of the older humanistic training ; and it is perhaps worth notice that the combination of the two was usual in Germany in days before the Eealschule gave entrance to the University, and that both then and since it has been strongly commended by eminent men of science in that country." Foreign European Languages, and possibly Modern, as well as Ancient, History are such courses. It would be a real advantage to ensure that a class of students should exist in this country who had traced to their springs the rivers of the languages, history, and thought of Europe. ( 36 ) The proposals submitted by the Deputation to the President of the Board of Education were as follows : " The Council of the Classical Association respectfully asks the President of the Board of Education to receive a deputation from them, in order that they may lay before him the following proposals with regard to the provision of such teaching of Latin and Greek in every local area, as will place these studies every- where within reach of pupils from all classes of the Nation. 1. That the Board of Education be asked to use its influence and resources towards securing : (a) That in each area of accessibility for school attendance, there should be at least one Secondary School for boys, and one for girls, at which efficient teaching may be provided in both Greek and Latin to a standard enabling pupils of ability to enter a specialised classical course of a high standard in some British University. In order to do so they must under present conditions be fitted to compete with reasonable chance of success for entrance scholarships at the different Universities. (6) That in every area a system should be arranged by which pupils who so desire can be transferred to such schools in the area ; and that in the case of the holders of scholar- ships an additional allowance should be made to cover any increase in the cost of daily attendance where travelling is involved. If more than one local authority is concerned in such an area, a combined scheme should be organised for transferring the tenure of scholarships for this purpose. (c) That, besides the School or Schools in which Greek is taught, the number of Secondary Schools maintained or aided by the local Education Authority, which provide teaching in more than one language other than English, should be steadily increased ; and if the first language is a modern language, the second language should always be Latin, unless for special reasons Greek were preferred in some particular cases. (d) In the case of pupils who do not pass directly from an elementary into the Classical Secondary School, facilities by ( 37 ) means of scholarships for transfer into the Classical School from other secondary schools should be provided. The successful working of any such scheme depends upon the general facilities existing in the area (i) for the transfer of all able pupils from Primary to Secondary Schools at an age early enough to enable them to profit duly by a Secondary Course, and (ii) for their remaining at school long enough to complete it. 2. That the Board be asked to regard a training in Latin language and literature, and at least some knowledge in the original of the typical parts of Greek literature, as an important and generally necessary element in the training of all teachers of English Literature above the elementary stage ; and to use its influence to encourage the application of this principle in Secondary Schools. 3. Finally the Classical Association desires to draw the atten- tion of the Board of Education to the existing tendency, by which the education given to the cleverer children who come from the elementary schools bears a different stamp from that given to children of the professional classes, being directed more narrowly to material and industrial well-being and less to the effective study of literature and history. Among the pupils from the elementary schools will be many who are likely to exercise influence in the public life, both munici- pal and national, of the coming generation ; and in the interest of the whole community it is of high importance that these future leaders of their fellow citizens should have some knowledge of the past history of mankind, especially of its political institutions and experiments; and should acquire an enduring interest in the ideals of both private and public character, by which the noblest sides of civilisation have been moulded. The Classical Association observes with interest the declaration of the Workers' Educational Association (Educational Reconstruction, Eecom- mendation 12) : * That since the character of British Democracy ultimately depends on the collective wisdom of its adult members, no ( 38 ) system of education can be complete that does not promote serious thought and discussion on the fundamental interests and problems of life and society.' The Classical Association believes that this end can be secured only if the same freedom of access to the thought and history of the greatest races of the past as is given to the children of the more privileged classes is also, by a wise system of national education, opened to children from every class of the community." Printed by Haxell, Watson 6- Viney, Ld., London and Aylesbury, England. 14 DAY USE RETURN TO DESK FROM WHICH BORROWED LOAN DEPARTMENT This book is due on the last date stamped below, or on the date to which renewed. Renewed books are subject to immediate recall. i PM 45 LD21-35m-2,'71 (P2001slO)476 A-32 General Library University of California Berkeley Photomount Pamphlet r , Binder Gaylord Bros., J nc . Makers Stockton, Calif. W. JAN. 21, ?908 VC 569 893700 3 - THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY