V X '""'^Sip- ^ C. r^ Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2007 with funding from Microsoft Corporation http://www.archive.org/details/debatesresolutioOOmainrich THE DEBATES, RESOLUTIONS, AND OTHER PROCEEDINGS, OF THE CONVENTION OF DELEGATES, ASSEMBLED AT PORTLAND ON THE IItH, AND CONTINUED UNTIL THE 29th DAY OF OCTOBER, 1819, FOR THE PURPOSE OK FORMING A CONSTITUTION FOR THE STATE OF MAINE. •TO WHICH IS PREFIXES THE COJVSTITUTIOJY^ BY JEREMIAH PERLEY, COUNSELLOR AT LAW. PORTLAND : A. SHIRLEY, PRINTER. 1820. / ^/9 A/3 District of maine, ss. oept. Be it remembered that on this twenty fifth day of November, lit the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and nineteea and the forty fourth year of the Independence of. the I nited States of America, Jeremiah Terley, of the District of Maine, has depos- ited in this office the title of a book, the right whereof he claims as Proprietor in the words following : viz. " The Debates, R' solutions, and other proceedings of the Con- vention of Delegates, assemble.! at Portland on the 11th and contin- ed until the ^9th day of October, 1819, forthf purpose of forming a constitution for the STATE OF MAINE. To which is prefixed the Constitution. Taken in Convention, by Jeremiah Perley. Counsellor at Law. Portland ; Printed by A. Shirley. 1820."" In conformity to the Act of the Congress oifthe United States, en- titled, "An Act for the eucouragement of Learning, by tecuriiigthe copies of maps, charts and books to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mei tioned." And also to an act entitled, '' An Act supplementary to an act entitled an Act for the encouragement of Learning, by securing the copiesof maps, charts and books to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned; and extending the benefits thereof to the arts of designing,engraving and etching historical and other prints." TrMJTVT «*nacL^v T S CI fk of the District JOHNMUSSLY, Jr. | Court, Maine. A triie copy &s of record.^ Attest, J. McssEY, Jr. Clerk D. C. M. 5<^ ADVERTISEMENT. IN presenting to the public an account of the proceedings of the i^bnvention, which framed the Constitution .'for the New State, re- gard has been had, not only to the gratification of a liberal curiosi- ty, b'lt to the preservation r,f an aulhontic recor.i for future times. The assembling of that venerable body, wa> the most interesting; event in our histdry. The object of their meeting was the most im- portant, that can be undertaken, by men who enjoy the inestima- ble blessing of self-government. They were to lay the fo in ations of the state — ' nd the result of their labors was to b an Acl^ which, if acceptabh' to the people, was to endire, and to influe ce th ir happiness, forages. The deliberations of such an Assembly, though, happily for Ameri ans, not a novel spectacle, yet must be vi-wcd \sith the deepest interest, especially by those for whom they were acting. That interest is by "O means impaired by «h^ candor, mag- nanimity, a d good feelings which characterised their proceed ngs. They are auspicious of that n en ousand enlighte ie i spirit, which it is so ardently to b' desired, may istinguish the organizing and U'l-- 2j[iiii! Lering of the new government. It IS surely desirable, that some memoria' sh uld exist, besides the constitution itself, fthc means by w ich so ma ly opposite op:n- i )ns were reconciled, an ! the cfFurts by which that important in* stru n* nt was juatured. It is easy to conceive, what instruction would be derived, from a faithful history of the proceedings of that august assembly, which iVanied the Coni:?titution of the United States,. And although most of the fundamental principles of a free govern- ment are now too well understood and settled in this country, to have undergone much deb »te in the late convention, yet the var a- lions from the est ibli bed forms to which we had been accustomed, and the new provisionr, were ably discussed, and their policy illus- trated ; and to these pareswIU those recur who arc desirous of learning the reasons of their adoption. The proceedings have been mostly taken from, or compared with. Mi689S IV. the Journal of the ConventioQ, and the Debates from minutes taken at the delivery, and in many instances revised by the speakers. No eare or pains have been spared, to render the work perfectly cor- rect ; and to make it a valuable manual for evtry citizen of Maine. It WPS thought best not to encumber the book with the first draft of the Constitution as reported, nor the verbal alterations which it un- derwent ; such important amendments as were adopted, or were proposed and discussed, are duly noticed. The accompanying documents will not be thought to detract from the value of the publication. Portland, D^c. 1819. CONSTITUTION OF MAINE. WE the people of Maine, in order to establish justice, ensure tranquillity, provide for our mutual defence, promote our com- mon welfare, and secure to ourselves aixl our posterity the bless- ings of Liberty, acknowledging with grateful hearts the good- iress of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in afforui:>g us an opportunity so favorable to the design ; and iuploring his aid and direction in its accomplishment, do agree to form ourselves into a free and independent State, by the style and title of the State of Maine, and do ordain and establish the following Con- stitu'.ion for the government of the same. ARTICLE L DECLARATION OF RIGHTS. Sec. L All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, ac- quiring, possessing and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness. Sec. 2. All power is inherent in the people ; all free gov- ernments are founded in their authority, and instituted for their benefit ; they have therefore an unalienai)le and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it. Sec. 3. All men have a natural and unalienable fi^ht to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences, and no one shall be hurt, molested or restrained in his person, liberty or estate, for worshipping God in the man- ner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own%con- scienre, nor for his religious proft^ssions or sentiments, provided he does not disturb the public peace, nor obstruct others in their religious worship ; — and ail persons demeaning themselves peaceably, as good members of the State, shall be equally un- der the protection of the laws, and no subordination nor prefer- ence of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law, nor shall any religious test be required as a qualification for any office or trust, under this Stale ; and all re- 1* ligious societies in this State, vvhethei incorporate or unincorpo- rate, ehall at all times have the exclusive right of electing their public teachers, and contractii g with them for their support and maintenance. Skc. 4. Every citizen may freely speak, write and publish his sentiments on any subject, being responsi{)le for the abuse of this liberty ; no laws shall be passed regulating or restraining (he freedom of the press ; and in prosecutions f( r any publication respecting ihe (official conduct oi men in public capacity, or !he qualifications of those who are candidates for the sulfrages of the people or where the matter publi.-hed is proper tor public in- formation, the truth ihereol may be giv^n in evidence, and in all indictments for libels, the Jury, after having received the di- rection of the Court, shall have a right to deteru'ine, at their discretion, the law and the fact. Sec 5. The people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers and possessions, from unreasonable searches and seiz- ures ; and no warrant toseaich any place, or seize any person or thing, shall issue without special designation of the place to be searched, and the person or thing to be seized, nor without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation. Sec. 6. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall have a right to be heard by hiraaelf and his counsel, or either, at hi.^ election ; To demand the nature and cause of the accusation, and have a copy thereof J To be confronted by the witnesses ag-^inst him ; To have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favcr; To have a speedy, public and impartial tiial, and, except in trials by martial law or impeachment, by a Jury of the vicinity. He shnll not be compelled to furnish or give evidence against himself, nor be deprived of his life, liberty, properly or privi- leges, but by judgment of his peers, or the law of the land. Sec. 7. No person shall be held to answer for a capital or infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases of impeachment, or in «uch cases of offences, as are usually cogniz ible by a justice of the peace, or in cases aiising in the army or navy, or in ihe militia when in actual ser- vice in time of war or public danger. The Legislature shall provide by law a suitable and impartial mode of selecting juiies, and their usual numb<2r and unanimity, in indictments and con victions, shall be held indispensable. Sec 8. No person, for the same offence, shall be twice put in jeopardy otiife or limb. Sec. 9. Sanguinary laws shall not be passed ; all penalties and punishments shall be proportioned to the otfence : excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fine^s imposed, nor cruel nor unusual punishinents inflicied Sec. 10. All persons, before conviction, shall be bailable, except for capital offences, where ihe-proof is evident or the pre- sumption great And the privilege of the wni o( Habeas Cor- pus ^haW not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it. Sec. 11. The Legislature shall pass no bill of attainder, ex post/hcio law, nor law iirpairing ihe obligation of contracts, and no attainder shall work corruption of blood, nor forfeiture of estate. Sec. 12. Treason against this State shall consist only in levying war against it, adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comtbrt. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the tame overt act, or confes- sion in open court. Sec 13. The laws shall not be suspended but by the Legis- lature or its authority. Sec. 14. No person shall be subject to corporeal punish- ment under inilitary law, except such as are employed in the army or navy, or in the militia when in actual service in time of war or public danger. Sec 15. The people have a right at all times in an orderly and peaceable manner to assemble to consult upon the common good, to give instructions to their representatives, and to request, of either depa'rtment of the government by petition or remon- strance, redress of their wrongs and grievances Sec 16. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence ; and this right shall never be ques- tioned. Sec 17. No standing army shall be kept up in time of peace without the consent of the Legislature, and the military shall, in all cases, and at all times be in strict subordination to the civil power. Sec. 18. No soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any bouse without the consent of the owner or occupant, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Sec. 19. Every person for an injury done him In his per- 8 son, reputation, propertj or immunities, shall have remedy by due course of law ; and right and justice shall be administered freely and without sale, completely and without denial, promptly and without delay. Sec 20. In all civil suits and in all controversies concerning property, the parties shell have a right to a ir.al by yiry, except in cases where il has heretofore been otherwise practised : the party claiming the right may be beard by himr*elf and his coun- sel, or either, at his election. Sec. 21. Private property shall not he taken for public uses without just compensation ; nor unless the public exigencies re- quire it. Sec. 22. No tax or duty shall be imposed without the con- sent of the people or of their Representatives in »he Legislature. Sec. 23. No title of nobility or hereditary distinction, privi- lege, honor or emolument, shall ever be granted or confirmed, nor shall any office be created, the appointment to which shall be for a longer time than during gflod behaviour. Sec. 24. The enumeration of certain rights shall not impair nor deny others retained by the people. ARTICLE IL ELECTORS. Sec L Every male citizen of the United States of the age of twenty-one years and upwards, excepting paupers, persons under guardianship, and Indians not taxed, having his residence established in this State for the t«rm of three months next pre- ceding any election, shall lie an elector for Governor, Senators and Representatives, in the town or plantation where his ren^ denceisso established ; and the elections shall be by written ballot. But persons in the military, naval or marine service of the United States, or this State, shall not be considered as having obtained such established residence by being stationed in any garrison, barrack or miUtary place, in any town or plantation ; nor shall the residence of a student at any seminary of learning entitle him to the right of suffrage in the town or plantation where such seminary is established. Sec. 2. Electors shall, in all cases, except treason, felony of breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest on the days of election, during their attendance at, going to, and returning therefrom. Sec 3. No elector shall he obliged to do duty in the n.ilitia on any day of election, except in time of war or public danger, 9 Sec. 4. The election of Governor, Senators and Represent- atives, shall be on the second Monday of September annually forever. ARTICLE III. DISTRIBUTION OF POWERS. Sec. 1. The powers of this Government shall be divided into three distinct Departments, the Legislative, Executive and Judicial, Sec. 2. No person or persons, Iselongjing to one of these Departments, shall exercise any of the powers properly belong- ing to either of the others, except in the eases herein expressly directed or permitted. ARTICLE IV— Par/ First, Legislative Power — Llouse of Representatives, Sec. 1. The Legislative power shall be vested in two dis- tinct branches, a House of Representatives, and a Senate, each to have a neG;ative on the other, and both to be styled the Leg' islaiure of Maine, and the style of their Acts and Laws, shall be, '• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in Legislature assembled.''^ Sec. 2. The House of Representatives shall consist of not ks3 than one hundred nor more than tvvo hundred members, to be elected by the qualified electors for one year from the day next precediufj the annual meeting of the Legislature. The Legislature, which shall first be convened under this Constitu- tion, shall, on or before the filteenth day of August in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty one, and the L^i^islature, within every subsequent period of at most {en years and at least five, cause the number of the inhabitants of the State to be ascertained, exclusive of foreisjners not natural- ized, and Indians not taxed. The number of Representatives shall, at the several periods of making such enumeration, be fixed and apportioned among the several counties, as near as may be, according to (he number of inhabitants, having regard to the relative increase of population. The number of Repre- sentatives shall, on said first apportionment, be not less than one hundred nor more than, one hundred and fifty ; and, when- ever the number of Representatives shall be two hundred, at the next annual meetings of election?, which shall thereafter be had, and at every subsequent period of ten year?, the people shall give in their votes, w^iether the number of Representatives shall be increased or diminished, and if a majority of votes are 19 in favor thereof, it shall be the duty of the next Legislature* thereafter to increase or diminish the number by the rule here- inafter prescribed. Sec. 3. Each town having fifteen hundred inhabitants may elect one representative ; each town having three thousand sev- en hundred and fifty may elect two ; each town having six thou- sand seven hundred and fifiy may elect three ; each town having ten thousand five hundred may elect four ; each town having fifteen thousand may elect five ; each town having twenty thou- sand two hundred and fifty may elect six; each town having twenty six thousand two hundred and fifty inhabitants may elect ?even ; but no town shall ever be entitled to more than seven representatives ; and towns and plantations duly organi- zed, not having fifteen hundred inhabitants, shall be classed, as conveniently as may be, into districts containing that number, and so as not to divide towns ; and each such district may elect one representative ; and, when on this ap[)ortiormient the num- ber of representatives shall b« two hundred, a dififerent appor- tionment shall take place upon the above principle ; and, ir> case the fifteen hundred shall be loo large or too small to appor- tion all the representatives to any county, it shall be so increas- ed or dimi!)i:>hed as to give the number of representatives ac- cording to the above rule and proportion ; and whenever any town or towns, platitatiun or plantations not entitled to elect a representative shall determine against a classification with any other town or plantation, the Legislature may, at each a[)por- tionment of representatives, on the application of such town or plantation, authorize it to elect a representative for such portion oi time and such periods, as shall be equal to its portion of Yeprespntation ; and the rigbt of represenlatim, so established; shall not be altered until the next general apportionment. Sec. 4. No person shall be a memktr oi Ibe House of Rep- resentatives, unless be shall, at the corrmjencement oi the period for which he is elected, have been five years a dtizen of the United States, have Jirrived at the age of twenty, one year?, have been a resident in this Slate one year, or from tbe adoption of this GonstilutiOM ; and, for the three 'nonihs next preceding the time of his election sbail have been, and, during the i>eriod for which he is elected, shall continue to be a resident in the town ordistric' which be lepiesents. Sec. 5 The meetings for the choice of representatives shall be warned in due course of law by the selectmen of the several 11 lewns seven days at least before the election, and the selectmen thereof shall preside impartially at such meetings, receive the votes of all the qualified electors present, sort, count and declare them in open town meeting, and in the presence of the town clerk, who shall form a list of the persons voted for, with the number of votes for each person against his name, shall make a fair record thereof in Ihe presence of the selectmen, and in open town mee'ing ;and a fair copy of this list shall be attested by the selectmen and town clerk, and delivered by said select- men to each representative wiihin ten days next after such elec- tion. And the towns and plantations organized by law, belong- ing to any class herein provided, shall hold their meetings at the same time in the respective towns and plantations ; and the town and plantation meeting-^ in such towns and plantations shall be notified, held and regulated, the rotes received, sorted, count- ed and declared in the same manner. And the assessors and , clerks of plantations shall have ail the powers, and be subject to ail ihe duties, which selectmen and town clerks have, and are subject to by (Lis Constitution. And the selectmen of such towns, and the assessors of such plantations, so classed, shall, within lour days next after such meetings meet at sorhe place, to be prescribed and notified by the selectmen or assessors of the eldest town, or plantation, in such class, and the copies of said lists shall be then examined and compared ; and in case any person shall be elected by a majority of all the votes, the se- lectmen or assessors shall deliver the certified co[)ies of such lists to the person so elected, within ten days next after such election ; and the clerks of towns and plantations respectively shall seal up copies of all m-zh lists and cause them to be deliv- ered into the Secretary's office twenty days at least before the first Wednesday in January annually ; but in case no perton shall have a majority of votes, (he selectmen and assessors shall, as soon as may be, notify another meeting, and the same pro- ceedings shall be had at every future n)eeting until an election shall have been effected : Provided^ That the Legislature may by lavr prescribe a different mode of returning, examining and ascertaining the election of the representatives in such classes. Sec 6. Whenever the seat of a member shall be vacated by death, resignation, or otherwise, the vacancy may be filled by a new election Sec 7. The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker, Clerk and other officers. 12 Sec. 8. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment. ARTICLE W.—Part Second, SENATE. Sec. 1. The Senate shall consist of not less than twenty, nor more than thirty one members, elected at the same lime, and for the same term, as the representatives, by the qualified electors of the districts, into which the State shall from time to time be divided. Sec. 2. The Legislature, which .^hall be first convened un- der this Constitution, shall, on or before the fifteenth day of August in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty-one, and ihe Legislature at every subsequent period of ten years, cause the sta e to be divided into districts for the choice of Senators. The ds ricts shall conform, as near as may be, to county lines, and be apportioned according; to the number of inhabitants. The number of Senators shall not exceed twenty at the first apportionment, and shall at each apportionment be increased, until they shall amount to thirty-one, according to the increase in the House of Repre- sentatives. Sec. 3. The meetings for the election of Senators shall be notified, held and regulated, and the votes received, sorted, counted, declared and recorded, in the same man- ner as those for Representatives. And fair copies of the lists of voles shall be attested by the selectmen and town clerks of towns, and the assessors and clerks of planta- tions, and sealed up in open town and plantation meetings; and the town and plantation clerks respectively shall cause the same to be delivered into the Secretary's office thirty days at least before the first Wednesday of January. All other qualified electors,living in places unincorporated, who shall be assessed to the support of government by the asses- sors of an adjacent town, shall have the privilege of voting for Senators, Representatives and Governor in such town ; and shall be notified by the selectmen thereof for that pur- pose accordingly. Sec. 4. The Governor and Council shall, as soon as may be, examine the returned copies of such lists, and,twen- ty days before the said first VVednesdayof January, issue a summons to such persons, as shall appear to be elected by a majority of the votes in each district, to attend that 13 day and take their seats. Sec. 5. The Senate shall, on the Raid first Wednesday of Jiinuary, annuall}', deteruune who are elected hy a ma- jority of votes to he Senators in each district 5 and in case the full number of Senators to be elected troni each dis- trict shall not have been so elected, the membets of the House of Representatives and such Senators, as shall have been elected, shall, fiom the highest numbers of the per- sons voted f(tr, on said lists, equal to twice the number of Senators deficient, in every district, if there be so many voted for, elect by j«"'int ballot the nuniber of Senators required; and in this manner all vacanci-s in the Senate shall be supplied, as soon as may be, after such vacancies happen. Sec. 6. The Senators shall be twenty-five years of ajre at the commencement of th^> term, for which they are elected, and in all other respects their qualificaiions shall be the -ame, as those of the Representatives. Sec. 7. The Senate shall h?lve the sole power to try all impeachments, and when setting f'.y that purpose shall be on oath or afl[irruation, and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the me nd:)ers pres- ent. Their jud.^men', however, shall not ex t-^nd farther than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold or enjoy any ofiic* of honor, tru?^t or profit under this State. But the party, vvhether convicted or acquitted, shall never- theless he liable to indictment, trial, judgment and pun- ishment accordin;^ to law. Sec. -8. The Senate shall choose their President, Sec- retary and other officers. ARTICLE IV.— Part Third. L I^GI.LJi Tl FE FOWKR, >!teo. 1. The Leo;isIature shall convene on the first Wednesday of Jnnuary annually, and shall have full pow- er to make and establish all reasonable laws and regulations for the defence and benefit of the people of this State, not repu;;nant to this Constitution, nor to that of the United States. Sec. 2. Every bill or resolution, having the force of law, to which the concuirence of both Houses may be neces- sary, except on a question of adjournment, which shall have passed both Houses, shall be presented to the Gover- 2 14 nor, and if he approve, he shall sibjt^cti(»n8 aU lar»ed UureoimMei \L If, niter euch recori'.iderad'jrr, lu o tl\ird--$ of that House sliflll agn^e to p-arfs i', it yhtill be sent, tou- ahor uitli the ohjectiour, to the oth^r Hou-«', by wiufh i; ^ivah he realler number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent inembers, in such manner and mider such penalties as each House shall provide. 8eo. 4. Each House may determine the rules of its pro- •eedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, andj with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member, but not a second time for the same cause. Seo. 5. Each House shall keep a journal, and from time to time publish its proceeding's, except such parts as in their judgment may require secrecy ; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question, shall, at the desire of one filth of those present, be entered on the journals. Seo. 6. Each House, during its session, may punish by imprisonment any person, not a member, for disrespectful •r disorderly behaviour in its presence, for obstructing any^ ©fits proceedings, threatening, assaulting or abusing any of ii^ members for anything said, done, or doing in either IS Ifouse : l^rnvidedf that no imprljsonment shall extend be- yond the period of the same session. Sec. 7. The Senators and Representatives shall re*? ceivfr such connpensation, as shall be es^ahlish«d by law 5 but no law inrreasmp; their compensation shall take effect during the existence of the Legislature, which enacted it. The expenses of the members of the House of Repre- sentatives in travelling lo the Legislature, and returning; therefrom, once in each session and no more, shall be paid by the State out of the public Treasury to every menvher, xvho shall seasonably attend, in the judgment uf the House, and does not depart therefrom without leave. Sec. 8. The Senators and Representatives shall, in all cases except treason, felony or breach of the peace, be priv- ileged from arrest during their attendance at, going to, and, returning from each session of the Legislature, and no member shall be liable to answer for any thing spoken io debate in either House, in any court or place elsewhere. Sec 9. Bills, orders or resolutions, may originate in ei- ther House, and may be altered, amended or rejected in thoi other ; but all bills for rai-^inga revenue shall originate !n the House of Representatives, hut the ^enaie may pre* pose arnendments as in other cases : Provided,^h^i they shall not, under color of amendment, introduce any new matter, tvhich does not relate to raising a revenue. Sec. 10. No Senator or Repreeentative shall, during the term for which he shall have been elected, be appointed to any civil office of profit under this state, which shall ^ave been created, or the emoluments of which increased during such term, except such offices as may be filled by elections by the people : Provided, that this prohibition Bhall not extend to the members of the first Legislature. Sec. 1L No membpr ofConofress, nor person holding any office under the United States, (post officers excepted) nor ofKice of profit under this state, Justices of the Peace , Notaries Public, Coroners and ofBcers of the miliiia except- ed, shall have a seat in either House during his being such member of Conc!:ress, or his continuing in such office. Sec 12. Neither House shall during the session, with- out the consent of the other,adjournf >r more than two day§, nor to any other place than that in which the Houses shaS be sitting. 16 ARTICLE v.— Part First. EXECUTIVE POWER. Sec. 1. The supreme executive power of this State shall be vested in a Governor. Sec. 2. The Cxovernor shall be elected by the qualified electoi's, and yhall hold his office one yqar from the iirst Wednesday of January in each year. Seo. 3. The meetinj^s for election of Governor shall be notified, held and re{>ulaled, and votes shall be received, sorted, counted, declared and recorded, in the same manner as those for Senators and Representatives. They shall bo sealed and returned into the Secretary's office in the same inannei, and at the same time, as those fur Senators. And the Secretary of State for the time being shall, on the first Wednesday of January, then next, lay the lists before the Senate and House of Representatives to be by tlvem exam* ined, and, in case of a choice b}^ a majority of all the votes returned, lliey shall declare and publish the same. But, if n6 person shall have a majority of votes, the House of Rep- resentatives shall, by l)aliot, from the persons liaving the four hi<;hest numbers of votes on the listS; if ^o many there be. elect t'.vc pciirou?; iLr.d make return of their names to the Senate, of whom' the Senate shall, by, ballot, elect one, who shall be declared the Governor. Sec. 4. The Governor shall, at the commencement of his term, be not kv-s than thirty years of age : a natural born citizen of the United States, have been five years, or from tlie adoption of this Constitution, a resident of the State; and at the time of his election and during the term fur which he is elected, be a resident of said State. Sec. 5. No person holding any office or place under the United State?, this Stale, or any other power, shall ex- ercise the oflice of Governor. Sec. 6. The Governor shall, at stated times, receive for his services a compensation, wliich shall not be increased or diminished during his continuance in office. Sec. 7. He shall be commander in chief of the army and navy of the State, and of the militia, except when called into the actual service of the United States 5 but he shall not march nor convey any of the citizens out of the State without their consent, or that of the Legislature, unless it shall become necessary, in order to march or IT transport them from one part of the State to another fot the detf-nce thereof. Sec. 8. He shall nominate, and, with the advice and consent of the Council, appoint all judicial officers, the At- torney General, the Sheriffs, Coroners, Registers of Prohate, and Notaries^ Public ; and he shall also nominate, and wilk the advice and consent of the Council, appoint all o^her civil and military officers, v^ho^e appointment is not by this Constitution, or shall not hy lav^ be otherwise provid- ed for; and every such nomination shall be made seven days, at least, prior to audi appointment. hEG. 9. He shall tWm time to time give the Legislature information of the condition of the State, and recommend to their conbideralion such measures, as he may judge expedient. Sec 10. He may require information from any military officer, or any officer in the executive department, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices. Sec. 11. He shall have power, with the advice and consent of the Council, to remit,after conviction, all forfeit- ures and penalties, and to grant reprieves and pardons, except in cases of impeachment. Sec. 12. He shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Sec. 13. He may, on extraordinary occasions, convene the Lei^islature ; and in case of disaci:reements between the two Houses with respect to the time of adjournment, adjourn them to such time, as he shall think proper, not beyond the day of the next annual meeting 5 and if, since the last adjournment, the place where the Leginlature were next to c onvene shall nave heo^^me dan^i^erous from an enemy or contagious sickness, may direct the session to be held at some other convenient place within the State. Sec 14. Whenever the office of Governor shall be- come vacant by death, resignation, removal from office or otherwise, the President of the Senate ^hall exercise the •ffice of Governor until another Governor shall he duly qualified ; and in case of the death, resignation, removal from office or other disqualification of the President of the Senate, so exercising the office of Gov^^rnor, the Speaker «af the House of Representatives shall exercise the office, until a President of the Senate shall have been chosen ; 18 and when the office of Governor, President of the Seiiaioj and Speaker of the House shall b«*corne vacant, in the re- cess of tlit^ St-nate, th^ person, aclinii; as Secretary of Slate for the time bpointed or others appointed, as the public interest may require. Sec 6. lire Justices of the Supreme Judicial Court shall hold no office under the United vStates, n<»r ari}^ state, nor any other office under this slate, except that of Justice df the Peace. ARTICLE VW. MILITARY. Sec 1. The captains and subalterns of the militiii shall be elected by the written votes of the members of their respective companies. The field officers of regiments by the viritten votes of the captains and subalterns of their respective n-gimeiUs. The Brigadier Generals in like manner, by the field oflicers of their respective brigades. Sec. 2. The Legislature shall, by law, direct the man- ner of notifying the elector*-, conducting the elections, and making the returns to the G.'»vernor of the officers elected ; and, if the electors shall neglect or refuse to make such ©lections, after being duly notified according to la w^, the €rovernor shall appoint sui talkie persons to fill such offices. Sec 3. The Major Gejierals shall be elected by the Senate and House of Representatives, each having a nega- tive on the other. The Adjutant General and Quarter- master General shall be appointed by the Governor and Council ; but the Adjutant General shall perr(»rm the duties ©f Quarter-master General, until otherwise directed by law\ The Major Generals and Brigadier Generals, and the com- manding officers of regiments and battalions shall appoml 21 their respective staff ollicors ; and all military officers shall be commissioned by the Governor. 8ec. 4. The militia, as divided into divisions, brigades, re^^iments, battalions and companies, pursuant to the laws now in force, shall remain so organized, until the same shall be altered by the l^egislature. Sec. 5. Persons of the denominations of Quakers and Siiakers, Justices of the Supreme Judicial Court and Minis- ters of the Gospel may be exempted from military duty, but no other person of the age of eighteen and under the age of fony-five years, excepting officers of the milin'a, vvho have been honorably discharged^ shall be so exempted, unless he shall pay an equiwJent to be fixed by law. ARTICLE VIII, LiTKlUTURE, A general diffusion of the advantages of education being essential to the preservaiion of the rights and liberti«^s of the people ; to promote this important object, the Legisla- ture are aulhori>3ed, audit shall be their duty to require, the several towns to make suitable provision, at their own ex- panse, for the support and maintenance of public schools ^ and it sliall furtlier be their duty to encourage and suit- ably endow, from ti^ne to time, as the circumstances of the people may authorise, all academies, colleges and seminaries of learning within the State : Provided^ That no donati(m, grant or endowment shall at any time be made by the Legislature, to any Literary Listitution now estab- lished, or which may hereafter be established, unless, at the time of making such endowment, the Legislature of the State shall have the right to grant ariy further powers to, alter, limit or restrain any of the powers vested in, any such literary institution, as shall be judged necessary to prom.ote the best interests thereof ARTICLE IX. GENERAL PROVISIONS. Sec. 1. Every person elected or appointed to either of the places or offices provid<*d in this Constitution, and every person elected, appointed, or commissioned to any Judicial, Executive, Military, or other office under this State, shall, before he enter on the discharge of the duties^ of his place or office, take and subscribe the following oath or affiu'mation : " I, do s\vear, that I «2 will support the Constitution of the United S^tafes and •f this State, so long as I shall continue a ciiizt^n thereof, So help me God." " I do swear, that I will faithfully discharge, to the best of my abiliti'^s, the duties incumbent on me at according to the Constitution arid the laws €>f the State.— So help me God :" Provided, That an affir- mation in the above forms may be substituted, when the person shall be conscienciously scrupulous of taking and subscribing an oath. The oaths or affirmations shall be taken and subscribed by the Governor and Counsellors betbre she presiding offi- cer of the Senate, in the prt\spnce of both Houses of the Le- gi3lature,and by the Senators and Representatives before the Governor and Council, and by the residue of said officers before such persons as shall be prescribed by the Legisla- ture ; and whenever the Governor or any Counsellor shall not be able to attend during the session of the Legislature to take and subscribe said oaths or affirmations, such oaths or affirmations may be taken and subscribed in the recess of the Legislature before any Justice of the Supreme Ju- dicial Court : Provided, that the Senators and Representa- tivesjfirst elected under this Constitution, shall take and sub- scribe such oaths or affirmations before the President of the Convention. Sec 2. No person holding the office of Justice of the Supreme Judicial Court, or of any inferior Court, Attorney General, County Attorney, Treasurer of the State, Adjutant General, Judge of Probate, Register of Probate, Register of Deeds, Sheriffs or their deputies, Clerks of the Judicial Courts, shall be a member of the Legislature ; and any person holding either of the foregoing offices, elected to, and accepting a seat in the Congress of the United States, shall thereby vacate said office ; and no person shall be eapable of holding or exercising, at the same time, wit.hia this State more than one of the offices before mentioned. Sec. 3. All Commissions shall be in the name of the State, signed by the Governor, attested by the Secretary or his deputy, and have the seal of the State thereto affixed. Sec. 4. And in case the elections, required by this Con- stitution on the iirst Wednesday of January annually, by ihe two HoRses of the Legislature, shall Hot be completed 23 •n tha^ (lay, tli<» ?a»ne nmy he adjourned from day to day^ until CO >pte'««d, m the tolioiviug order : the vacancies in thrt S'uiaie .-aati first be filled ; the Governor shall then be el^<:tt*u, it' iljere h^ no chcice by the people 5 and iifter- waricj the two Hons« s shall elect the Council. Sec- 5. Kvejy p'.n-on h.)Iding any civil office under this iSiat(», may be removed by impeachment, for misde- meanor inotfi'-ej aiid every person ludding any otTice. may be removed l»y the Governor with the advice of the Coun- cil, on the addref^s of boih branches of the L^'gislature. Biit b«ifore such add; ess shall pass either Hou^-e, the caiises of removal shall be staged aid entered on the journal of the House in which it origmated, and a copy thereof served t)n the person in office, that he may be admitted to a hear- - inji; in his defence. Sec. 6. The tenure of all offices, which are not or shall not be otherwise provided for, shall be during the pleasure •fthe Governor and Council. Sec 7. While the public expenses shall be assessed oift polls and estates, a general valuation shall be taken at least once in ten years. Sec. 8. All faxes upon real estate, assessed by author- ity of this State, shall be apportioned and assessed equally, according to the just value thereof. ARTICLE X. SCHKUULt:. €>%G, 1. The first Legislature shall meet on the last Wednesday in May next. The elections on the second Monday in September annually shall not commence un il the year one thousand eight hundred and twenty one, and in the meantime the election tor Governor, Sent-tors and Representatives shall be on the first Monday in April, in the 3'ear of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty, and at this election, the same proceedings shall be had as are required at the elections, provided for in this Cou; titution on the second Monday in September annually, and the lists of the votes for the Governor and Senators uhall be transmitted, by the town and plantation clerks re- ■pt*en'lent State," shall continue in office as therein pro* vided ; and the following provisions of said act shall be a part of this Constitution, subject however to be modified or annulled as therein is prescribed, and not otherwise, to >vit : Sec. 1. Whereas it has been represented to this Legislature, tliat a majority of (he people of (he Uistrict of Maine are desirous of es- tablishing a separate and Independent Government within said Dis- trict : Therefore, Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives inGen- eral Court assembled^ and by the authority of the same^ That the consent of this Commonwealth be, and the same is hereby given, that the Dislrict of Maine may be formed and erected into a sepa* rale and Independent State, if the people of the said District sliall in the manner, and by the majority hereinafter mentioned, express their consent and agreement thereto, upon the following terms and conditions : And, pro\jdcd the Congress of the United States shall gi\e its conf^ent thereto, before the fourth day of March next: 'which terras and conditions are as follows, viz. First, All the lands and buildmgs belonging to the Common- wealth, within Massachusetts Proper, shall coritinue to belong to said Commonwealth, and all the lands belonging to the Commonwealth, ivithin the District of Maine, shall belong, the one half thereof to the said Commonwealth, and the other half thereof, to the State, 28 t© be formed within the said District, (o be divided as is hereinafter mentioned ; and the lands within the said Dietrict, which shall belong to the said Commonwealth, shall be free from taxation, while the title (o the said lands remains in the Commonwealth ; and the rights of the Commonwealth to their lands, within said District, and the remedies for the recovery thereof, sliail continue the same, within the proposed State, and in tlie Courts thereof, as they now are within the said Commonwealth, and in the Courts thereof; for which pur- poses, and for the maintenance of its ri£;hts, and recovery of its land.s, tlie said Commonwealth shall be entitled to all other proper and legal remedies, and may appear ii» the Courts of the proposed State and in tlie Courts of the United Stales, holden therein ; and all rights of action for, or entry into lands, and of actions upon bonds, for the breach of the performance of the condition of settling duties, so called, which have accrued, or may accrue, shall remain in this Com- monwealth, to be enforced, couiinuted, released, or otherwise dis- posed of, in such manner as this Commonwealth may hereafter de- termine : Provided hoictvtr^ That whatever this Commonwealth may hereafter receive or obtain on account thereof, if any thing, shall, after deducting all reasonal)Ie charges relating thereto, be divided, ©ne Tfiir\l p^rt tljeregf to the new State, and two third parts thereof to this Commonwealth. Second. All the arms which have been received by this Common- wealth from the United States, under the law of Congress, entitled, *' An act making provision for arming and equipping the whole body •f militia of the United States, passed April the twenty third, on« thou sand eight hundred and eight, shall, as soon as the said Dis- trict shall become a separate State, be divided between the two States, in proportion to the returns of the militia, according to which, the said arms have been received from the United States, as afore- <' Third. All money, stock, ©r other proceeds, hereafter derived from the United States, on account of theclaiai of this Commonwealth, for disbursements made, atid expenses incurred, for the defence of the Stale, during the late war with Great Britain, shall be received by this Commonwealth, and when received, shall be divided between the two States, in the proportion of two thirds to this Commonwealth, ami ®ne third to the new Stale. Fourlli. All other property, of every description, belonging to the Commonwealth shall be holden and receivable by the same, as a fund and security, for all d»jbts, annuities, and Indian subsidies, or claims due by said Commonwealth ; and within two years after the said Dis- trict shall have become a separate State, the Comrais^ioners to be ap- pointed, as hereinafter [)iovided, if the said Stales cannot otherwise agree, shall assign a just portion of the productive property, so held by said Commonwealth, as an equivalent and indemniiicatiim to said Commonwealth for all such debts, annuities, ©r Indian subsidies or claims, which may then remain due, or unsatisfied : a»id all the sur- plus of ihe said property, so holden, as aforesaid, shall be divided be- tween the said Commonwealth and the said District of Maine, in the proportion of two thirds to ihe said Commonwealth, and one lUird 29 to the said District— and if, in Ihe judgment of iHe said Coramis-^ sioners, the whole of said property, so hwld, as a fund and security, shall not be sufficient indemnification for the purpose, the said District shall be liable for and shall pay to said Commonwealth, one third of the deficiency. Fifth, The new State shall, as soon as the necessary arrange- ments can be made for that purpose, assume and perform all the duties and obligations of this Commonwealth, towards the Indiana within said District of Maine, whether the same arise from treaties, or otherwise ; and for this purpose shall obtain the assent of said Indians, and their release to this Commonwealth of elaims and. stipulations arising under the treaty at present existing between the said Commonwealth and said Indians ; and as an indemnifica- tion to such new State, therefor, this Commonwealth, when such arrangements shall be completed, and the said duties and obligations assumed, shall pay to said new S-tate, the value of thirty thousand dollars, in. manner following, viz ; The said Commissioners shall set off by metes and bounds, so much of any part of the land, within the said District, falling to this Commonwealth, in the divi- sion of the public lands, hereinafter provided for, as in their estima- tion shall be of the value of thirty thousand dollars ; and this Com- monwealth shall, thereupon, assign the same to the said new State, or in lieu thereof, may pay the sum of thirty thousand dollars at its election; which election of the said Commonwealth, shall be made within one year from the time that notice of the doings of the Com- missioners, on this subject, shall be made known to the Governor and Council ; and if not made within that time, the election shall be with the new State. Sixth. Commissioners, with the powers and for the purposes mentioned in this act, shall be appointed in manner following ; The Executive authority of each State shall appoint two; and the four so appointed, or the major part of thera, shall appoint two more ; but if they cannot agree in the appointment, the Executive of each State shall appoint one in addition ; not however, in that case, to be a citizen of its own State. And any vacancy happening with re- spect to the Commissioners, shall be supplied in the manner pro- vided for their original appointment ; and, in addition to the powers herein before given to said Commissioners, they shall have full pow- er and authority to divide all the public lands within the District, be- tvveen the respective States, in equal shares, or moieties, in several- ty, having regard to quantity, situation and quality; they shall determine what lands shall be surveyed and divided, from time td 4ime, the expense of which surveys, and of the Commissioners, shall be borne equally by the two States. They shall keep fair records of their doings, and of tfie surveys. made by their direction, copies of which records, authenticated by them, shall be deposited from time to lime, in the archives of the respective States ; transcripts of which, properly certified, may be admitted in evidence, in all ques- •ions touching the subject to which they relate. The Executive .vjthority of each State may revoke the power of either or boti 3« Its Commissioners; having, however, first appointed a substitute, or substitutes, and may fill any vacancy happening with respect to its own Commissioners ; four of said Commissioners shall constitute a quorum, for the transaction of business ; their decision shall be final, upon all subjects within their cognizance. In case said com- mission shall expire, the same not havings been completed, and either State shall requfcst the renewal or filling up of the same, it shall be renewed or filled up in the same manner, as is herein provided for filling the same, in the first instance, and with the like powers ; and if either State shall, after six months' notice, neglect or refuse to appoint its Commissioners, the other may fill up the whole com- mission. Seventh, All grants of lands, franchises, immunities, corporate or other rights, and all contracts for, or grants of land not yet located, which have been or may be made by the said Commonwealth, be- fore the separation of said District shall take place, and haiing or to bave effect within the said District, shall continue in full force, after the said District shall become a separate State. But the grant \Thich has been made to the President and Trustees of Bowdoin Col- lege, out of the tax laid upon the Banks, within this Commonwealth, shall be charged upon the tax upon the Banks within the said District of Maine, and paid according to the terms of said grant ; and the President and Trustees, and the Overseers of said College, shall have, hold and enjoy their powers and privileges in all respects ; sd that the same shall not be subject to be altered, limited, annulled or fe?trained, except by judicial process, according to the principles of law ; and in all grants hereafter to be made, by either State, of unlo- cated land within the said District, the same reservations shall be made for the benefit of Schools, and of the Ministry, as have hereto- fore been usual, in grants made by this Commonwealth. And all lands heretofore granted by this Commonwealth, to any religious, literary, or eleemosynary corporation, or society, shall be free from taxation, while the same continues to be owned by such corporation, •r society. Eighth. No laws shall be passed in the proposed State, with regard to taxes, actions, or remedies at law, or bars, or limitations thereof^ or otherwise making any distinction between the land* and rights of property of proprietors, not resident in, or not citizens of said proposed State, and tlie lands and rights of property of the citizens of the pro- posed State, resident (herein ; and llie rights and liabilities of all per- sons, shall, after the said separation, continue the same as if the said District was still a pa>'t of this Commonwealth, in all suits pend- ing, or judgments remaining unsatisfied on the fifteenth day of March jiext, where the suits have been commenced in Massachusetts Proper, and process has been served within the District of Maine ; or com- menced in the District of Maine, and process has been served in MHSsachusetIs Proper, either by taking' bail, making attachments, ar- resting ar)d detaining persons, or otherwise, where execution remains to be done; and in such suits, the Courts within Massachusetts Proper, »nd within the proposed State, shall continue to have the same ju- . isrllction as if the said Disfcficl had still remained a pert of the 6'oHr- 31 «ionwea!lh. And this Commonwealth shall have the same remedies v^ithin the proposed State, as it now has, for the collection of all tax- es, bonds, or debts, which maybe assessed, due, made or contracted,, by, to, or with the Commonwealth, on or before the said fifteenth day of March, within the said District of Maine ; and all officers within Massachusetts Proper and the District of Maine, shall conduct themselves accordingly. Ninth These terms and conditions, as here set forth, when the said District shall become a «epara(e and Independent State, shall, ?;7jo/ac- io^ be incorporated into, and become and be a part of any Constitu- tion, provisional or other, under which the Government of the said proposed State, shall, at any time hereafter, be administered ; subject, however, to be modified, or annulled by the agreement of the Legis- lature of both the said States; but by no other power or body what- soever. Sec. 6. This Constitution shall be enrolled on parch- mentp deposited in the Secretary's ofBce^and be the supreme law of the state, and printed copies thereof shall be prefixed to the books containing the laws of this state. D^tu in Convention J October 29, 1819. WILLIAM KING, President of the Convention and member fiom Balk, List of Delegates returned to the Convention,'^ COUNTY OF YORK. York, Elihu Bragdon, David Wilcox — Kiitery, Alexander Rice — Wells f Joseph Thomas — Bem-ick, VViliiani Hobbs, Na- thaniel Hobbs, Richard F. Cutis — Bidde/ord, Georg;© Thacher, Selh Spring — Arundel^ Simon Novvel! — Saco, William M^ody, Ether Shepley^ George Thacher, junior — Lebanon^ David Le- grow — Buxton, Gideon Elden, Josiah Paine, Edmnnd Wood- man — Lyman, John Low, John Bufbank — Sfiopleigfi, John Leighlon — Parsonsfield, David Marstcai, Abner Hazen — Water- borovgk, Samuel Bradeen, Henry Hobbs — Limington, David Boyd — Cornish^ Tliomas A. Johnson — Alfred, John Holmes Hollis, Ellis B. Usher, I'imothy Hodsdon — South- Bet wick, Ben- j^niin Green — Limerick, John Burnhain. York, Jeiemiah Bradbury.*" Kittery, Joshua T. Chase.* Wells, George W. Wallini^ford,* Joseph Dane,* Nahum Morrell,* SatYiuel Curtis, junior.*" Lebanon. Daniel Wood.* Sanford, Elisha Allen,* Timothy Shaw.* Shapleigh, John Bod well,* Samuel Heard> '^ Thos« with this mark (*) did not sign the Constitutiec^ 32 Limington, Nathaniel Clark.^ Elliot, Stephen Neal,*" Elisha Sbapleigb.^ CUMBERLAND. Scarborough^ Benjamin Larrabee, junror, Joseph Fogg North Yarmouth, William Buxton, Ephraim Sturdivant, Jere- miah Bux (on -—Fa/wawi/i, Peter M. Knight, Nathan Bucknam — Brunswick, Robert D. Dunning, Jonathan Page, Benjamin Tit- comb — HarpswelU Stephen Purringlon — Gorham. Lathrop Lew- is, Joseph Adams, James Irish — Cape-Elizabeth, Ebenezer Thrasher — New Gloucester^ Joseph E. Foxcroft, Isaac Gross Gray, Joseph McLellan — Standish, Theodore Mtjssey Port- landy Albion K. Parris, William P. Preble — Freeport, Solomon Dcnni-(9n — Durham^ Secomb Jordan, Allen H. Cobb — Bridg- touy Phinebas Ingals — Po/anc?, Josiah Dunn, junior — Minot, A- saph Howard, Chandler Freeman— Da77T;i//e, Joseph Roberts— Baldwin, Lot Davis — Raymond, Zachariah Leach — Pownal, Isaac Cushtn^n— We sibroak, Silas Estes, Thoinas Slemons, John Jones — Harrison, Amos Thomes. North Yarmouh, Calvin Stockbridte.* ^Fi?infA(im, Noah Reed,* Josiah Chute.* Stand- ishy James D. Tucker.* Portland, Ezekiel Whitman,* Henrj Smith,* Nicholas Einerj,* Asa Clap,* Isaac Hsley.* LINCOLN. Georgetown, Benjamin Riggs — N^w Castle, Ebenezer Farley '-^^Wooiwich, Ebenezer Delano — Wiscasset, Abiel Wood, War- ren Rice — Bowdoinham, Ebenezer Jrler; irk, Elihu Hatch--7'ops- ham, Nalhanitl Green — Boothbay, Daniel Ro.^e, John McKovvn — Bristol, Samuel Tucker, William M'Clintock, John F^.'Ssel — IValdoborough, Jo-hua Head, Isaac G. Reed, Jacob D. Ludvvfg, junior — Edgcomb, Stephen Parsons — Warren, John Miller, Cy- rus Eaton — Thomastun, isaac Barnard, Joho Spear— fia^A, Joshua Wingate. jutiior, Benjamin Ames — Union, Robert Fos- ter — Bowduiri, Joseph Carr — Nobleborough, Ef)liraim R)Hins — Cushtng, Edward Kslieran — Camden, Nathaaiei Martin — Dres- den^ Isaac Liilie — Lewiston, John Herrick — Litchfield, Joha Neal, David C. Burr — Liabon, Nathaniel Eames, James Small- St. George, Joel Miller — Hope, Fergus M'Ciaine — Palenm Thomas Eastman — Montville, Cyrus D:^vis — Jefferson, Jesse \\o\st;\\— Friendship, fVlelzer Thomas — PVfdtefielst, Joseph Bar- ley — Putnam, Mark Hatch — Alna, John \3o\q^— Wales, Joseph Small. Phiphbiirg, Faik^v McCohh"^ ICENNEBECK. HaUozvelL 6'amuel Moody, Willi sm H Page, B€njan^i:^ Dtaibojn — Winthr^p Alexander Belcher, Darie) Canipbell— ^^.tLssalbfirmii^k iDa!.iiiJ»el lied iniOmas Francis — Chestermlle, Ward Locke — Vi- enna, Nathaniel Whi:(ier — Waterville, Abijah Smith, Ebenezer Bacon — Gardiner, Jacob Davis, Sanford Kingsbery — Temple, Benjamin Abbot — Wilton, Ebenezer Eaton — Rome, John S. Colboih — Fairfax, Joel Wellington — Unity, Rufus Burnham — Malta, William Hilton — Freedom, Matthew Randall — Jey, James Parker^-C/ii/ia, Daniel Stevens. Vassalborongh, MoiQS Sleeper.'^ Dearborn, Peasly Morrell, junior.* HANCOCK. Belfast, Alfred Johnson, junior — Islesbnrough, Josiah Far- row — Deer-Isle, liioatius Haskell, A.^a Grc^n — Bluehill, An- drew W^ilbam— -7Ven^o?/, Peter Haynes — Sullivan, George Hen- man — Goiddabmovghf Samuel Davis — Finalhaven^ Benjamin Beverage — Frankfort. Alexander Milliken, Joshua Hall>— ^t/dts- port, Samuel Little — Prospect, Abel W. Atherlon — Castine, William Abbot — Northport, David Alden — Eden, Nicholas 'J'homas, junior — Oriand, Horatio Mason — KUsrvorth, Mark Sliepard — Lmcolnvi'le, Sairuel A. Whitney — Belmont, Jr.mes Weymouth — Brooks, Sau-iuel Whitney — Jackson, Rordman Johnson Searsmont, Ansel Lathrop Swanvdie, Eleazar Nickeison — Thorndike, Joseph Blethen Munroe. Joseph Neal- \y — Knox.J'AmQS Weed. £icr. St. .;i/^flfn.9, Benjamin French. King f eld, Joseph Knapp. Corinna, William Elder. Ripley, Jacob Hale Bloom- field, Eleazar Coburn. Warsaw. Stevens Kendall. Fairfiekl, Stephen Thayer* Mercer, Nahum Baldwin.* JYortiihilly William Butterfield * PENOBSCOT. i/r7?>ioc?6n, Simeon Stetson. Orri/ig^on, John Wilkins. Ban- gor, Joseph Treat. Orono, Jackson Davis. Dixmont, Samuel Butman Brewer, George Leonard. Eddington^ Luther Ea- ton. €armel, Abel Buggies. Corinth, Andrew Sfrong. Exeter, Nathaniel Atkins. Garland, Amos Gordon. New-Charleston, Daniel Wilkins. Foxcroft, Samuel Chamberlain. Sebec. Wii- iliam R. Lowney. Herman, William Patten. Levant Moses^ Hodsdon. Newport, Bewjamin Shaw. Sangerville^ Benjamin C. Goss. Dexter, Isaac Fanar. Guilford, Joseph Kelsey. Atkinson, Ejeazar W. Snow. JVewburgh John Whitney. .Attest, BOBERr C. VOSE, Secretary, DEBATES, aiCSOLUTIONS, AND OTHER PROCEEDINGS, OF THE CONVENTION, FOR FORMING A CONSTITUTION FOR THE STATE OF MAINE. IN CONVENTION, Monday, October 11, 1819. Agreeably to the provisions of the Act of the Common- wealth of Massachusetts, passed June 19, 1811, entitled " An Act relating to the Separation of the District of Maine from Mas- sachusetts Proper, and foriHing the same into a Separate and Independent Slate," the Delegates therein mentioned, assembled at the Court House in Portland ; when the Hon. Daniel Cony was by vote, unanimously requpsled to take the chair, and he thereupon made the following address : — Gentlemen : With this day, commences a new era in the history of Maine : a new State has arisen into existence, under circum- stances that will enable it to take an honorable rank with the older States of the Union. The Convention here convened in this Hall, consecrated to Justice, and assigned by the Legisla- ture, as the place for their meeting, have a high and responsible trust in charge. Let us endeavor not to disappoint the re^jsona- b!e expectations ot our constituents. The first business will be, to examine the returns of the members, and that before we proceed to organize the convention. On motion, it was then Voted, that the Hon. John Holmes, Hon, Albion K. Parris, Hon. Joshua Gage, Hon. Judah Dana, and William Abbot, E^q. be a committee to examine the cre- dentials of the m.embeis. The committee reported, that on examinaiion it appeared there were two hundred and seventy four memoers present, le- gally returned ; which report, with the names of the members being read, was accepted. On the invitation of the Hon. Chairman, the Rev. Mr. Tit- icomb, of Brunswick, then addressed the throne of Grace, for 36 guidance and direction in their important duties ; after which the Convention adjourned to 3 o'clock, P. M. Afternoon. The Convention proceeded to the choice of a President, by ballot ; and a committee, consisting of the Hon. Benjamm Greene, Hon. Ezekiel Whitman, Hon. James Bridge, Hon. Benjamin Ames, and the Hon. James Campbell, was ap- pointed, to collect, sort and count the votes, fvho reported, that the whole number was 241 ; of which the Hon. William King had 230, and he was accordmgly declared to be duly elected. He was then conducted to his seat, by the committee and made the following address : — Gentlemen of the Convention ! The Conveniion, on the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman who preceded ine in this chair, having acknowledged the good- ness of the Great Legislator of the Universe, in affording the people ot the District an opportunity of entering into a solemn compact with each other, the occasion of our present meeting may now be made the subject of general congratulation. To you, gentlemeH, to whose persevering and successful ef- forts we are mdebted for the occasion which so happily calls us to«;eiher ; the peo[>le, who will derive such extensive benefits from those efforts, can never cease to be grateful. The duties you have assigned me are arduous — I will endea*- ©r to perform them. Although they will ryot be the most impor- tant they will be s'lch as require much of your aid and iniul- gence. The Convention then proceeded to the chofce of a Sec c ^ry, by ballot, when it appeared the whole number of votes was 243 ; necessary for a ch(»ice 122; lUo were for H. C. Vuse, Esq.;. 73 for A^hur Ware, Esq. ; 50 for Nathaniel Coffin, Esq ; and 15 scattering. On the next ballot, 257 were given in ; of which Robert C. Vose, Esq. had 166, and wa^ chosen and accepted. The Hon. Juiige Parris (of Portlaini) sufimitted three reso- lutions, to ajspuint coiiimittees ; Isl, to draft rules for the regu- lation of the Cuovenlior) ; 2d, to app'y to Contrress for admis- sion into the Union; and 3d, to report a Cons iluiion. It w^as then Resolved^ That a committee, consisting of three members, he appointed to piepaie and report proper rults of proceedings for this Convention. The Hon. George Thacher, Hon. Benjamin Greene, and the Hon. James Campbell, were appointed on said committee. 37 Resolved, That a Sergeant at Arms be appointed by the Pres- ident, whose duty it shall be, to execu'e the orders of the Con- veritiof^^ and to assist the President in the preservation of order ; and he shall employ a dooikeeper and such assistants as may be necessary. Mr. \Villiam B. Peters, of Portland,' was appointed. Resolved, Th.U the several ordained and settled Clergvmen of the town of Purthnd be requested by the Sergeant at Arms, in behalf of this Gon\enlion, from day to day, in succession, ac- cording to iheir seniority, to attend and perform the duties of Chaplain of ihis Convention. Resolved, That the President as'^ii.^n to any Editor of any pub- lic ni^wspaper, or the agent of any ^uch Editor, who may apjdy for it, aconvfoieni situation for the purpose of taking notes of the proceedinor.s of this convention. Resolved, That a committee of Elections be appointed, con- sisti \<^ of tive members. Voted, That the Conventicni adjourn, to meet in the Meeting- House of the First Pa'i-.h in Portland, (whioli had been offered for their use) tomorrow mornuv^, at 9 u'ciock. TUF:SDAY, OCTOBER 12. The convention met according to adjournment, at the Meet- ing-hou^e ot (he Fir>t Pari h. The comrnittee appointed to prepare niles of proceedings hav- ing attended to the du'ie^ assigned them, reported the rules and ordf^rs of tlie Hou^e of Keprvsenl-itives of tins Commonwealth, with such alterdtions as were reqiiisite, to ad.ipt them to the use of the cofjveniion. Tlie I4;h rule provided that all commitlpes shouM be no»ni- nated by ihe Pre.iitii^nt and app(jinled Uy the cojiventi<>n, unless ten members should be in fav »r of Ih^ir being nuu i iated by the conventiofi, in which case the no^nination should come from the c(»nveutiun. This rule was objected to by Mr Prebie, of Portland, on the ground ihat it put it in rhe power t cf the fr.emter.s, and the several tommit- tees wliich have been appomttd Judge Parris called up the thiid resolution proposed by him yeslerday. lion. Mr. Holmes, of Alfred. Mr President, there is con- siderable solicitude existing on tlii^ sul-jf^ct, and well there may be. The people look with anxiety to the committee v\ho are to report a constitution, and wdl not be satirfied, unless the feelings and interests, not only of every part of the District, but of every class of society, are represented in the comn iilpe. I do not complain of this solicitude ; it is natur?»l and laudable, and I feel fully disposed to gratify the general vvish. But in •rder to this, the committee must of necessity be largo ; at the same time it is desirable, for the purpose of despatch, that it should not be so large as to be unwieldy. I would suggest to the large counties a liber?J course in the appointment, and that the small counties should have more than an equal proportiDO. I would therefore move, that twenty two members be selected for this committee, and that thiee be taken frum each of the large counties, and two from each of the smaller ones. Mr. Wood, of Lebanon, objected to the nun)ber, as too small, and proposed to fill the blank with the number 49 — :^nd ^i^e seven to each of the four large counties, and four to each of ihe •ther counties, except Somerset, which should have five. At the suggestion of the H(»n. Judge D^na, of Fryeburg, that Oxford at the last census, contained about one third more in- habitants than Somerset, he consetited so to modify his motion, as to give Oxford five and Somerset four. Hon. Mr. Moody, of Saco, said he w^s not prepared for the apportionment among the counties. Me wished the number of the comndttee to be first fixed, and atlerwards apportioned among the several counties, according tolheir population. He observed, the proposed num.ber was too large for the despatch uf business. A small committee, said he, wil! much sooner pre- sent the Convention v\i!h the skeleton ol a constitution, Ihaa a large one; and this it is desirable to obtain as soon as possible. For. however large the committee may be, or however complete their report, the principles must be debated a»;d settled in the G^ynveRtioB. 39 Hon. Mr. Whitman, of Portland, was opposed to so large a Bumber iur the committee. Several incoiivenlencea he thought would result from appoin^iig one so numerous. We want^ said he, only a sketch of a constitution io the first place, which the whole conven ion will fill up, and to which they will give form and proportion. But if the commiitee were so large, there would be as mauy different opinions among them, as there are in the convention. Much time, therefore, would necessarily be consumed in debating among themselves, upon the several articles of the constitution. They would go largely into debate in the detail, and when they came into the convention, would come confirmed in the opinions which they had advocated in the committee. If so large a number as 49 were taken, the consliiution would be settled in committee, and it might be dif- ficult, if so large a body were to combine to support the report, to obtain amendments. But should a smaller number be se- lected, it would be less difficult to obtain amendments, and the constitution that might be uliinately agreed upon, would more fairly express the sense of the convention ; and therefore, in all probability correspond more nearly with the exf)ectations of the people, A small committee to draw up a constitution, would be the most likely to hasten the progress of the proceedings, as " the convention may the sooner have an opportunity to consider the ditferent provisions, to discuss them and come to some final agreement. He therefore thought, thirteen would be a suffi- cient number to answer every object the members desired of the committee ; and proposed that one should be taken from each County, and the remainder at large. Hon. Judge Green, of South-Berwick, observed, there is one simple que.-tion before the Convention, that is the nufnber of which the Committee shall consist. 1 consider, said he, with o'her genllenien, that the feelings, views, and interests of al! classes of the citizen?, in every section of the District, should be consulted in the selection. But I think a smaller number than that proposed by the motion under consideration, would answer this purpose as well, and also save the time of the Con- vention. It is not so important that the reported Constitution should be perfectly matured, as that it be made expeditiously. It is not necessary it should be perfect in all its details ; it may be amended in the Convention ; but until it is reported, we have nothing to occupy our attention. Mr. Holmes rose again. I believe, said he, there h a spirit 4tr of conciliatinn in this Convention. T came here with a dispo- sition to yielJ my own opinions to tho.^e of others. Some gen- tlemen prefer a veiy nurrierous, and son»e a very small com- mittee I prefer, said Mr. H. a medium. Of the numbers proposed, I ihiuk the one so numerous, as to be siow and un- wieldy in its motions ; and the other, proposed by the gentle- man from Portland, is not numerous enough to satisfy the gen- eral vvi^ihes of the Convention. He then proposed ihirly-one, as a safe mean between the two extremes. Hon Judge Bridge, of Augusta, said, I am not satisfied with the number proposed by the gentleman frbm Lebanon It is desirable that the Committee .-hould be large en(»ugh to admit of sub-committet'S, to frame different parts of the Constitution, without being so much so, as to injpede their business. He pro- posed, if the pre:?ent motion should not succeed, to move that ihe blank be filled with thirty-three, which would be in the ra- tio ot about one to nine of the whole delegates returned, and might be equally distributed among the severa' Counties. Judge Thacher said, he saw no reason to be particularly at- tached to the number thirty three. He observed, the num- ber that framed the Constitution of Massachusetts, was twenty- seven. Hon, Mr. Chandler, of Monmouth, said he came here with impressions in favor of a much smaller number than forty-nine. But as there is a disposition to have it numerous, I would not, said he, object to thirty-one, but consider thirty-three as the best number. The question was then taken on Mr. Wood's motion to fill the blank with lorty-nine, and it passed in the negative by a large majority. The blank was then filled, and the resolution passed as fol- lows : Resolved, Thai Si Committee consisting of thirty-three members, be appointed to prepare and report to this Conven- tion, a Constitution or frame of Government for the new State, agreeably to the 4th section of the act of the Legislature of the Commonweakh of Massachusetts, passed June 19, 1819, enti- tled '* An act relating to the Separation of Maine from Massa- chusetts proper, and forming the same into a Separate and In- dependent State." Ordered, That the said Committee be se- lected in the manner following, viz. from York, five ; from Cu.mberland, five ; from Lincoln, five ; from Kennebeck, five ; fro^n Oxford, three ; from Somerset, three ; from Hancock, three ; from Penobscot, two ; and frcun Washinglonj two. 41 Judge Pairis then called up his second resolution, which pass* ed as follows : Resolved, That a Committee, conslsiinor of five members, be appointed to prep.ire and report to this Convention, an applica- ticn to the Congress of the United Stales, for its assent to be given, before thf last sl^y ot Januaiy next, that the District of Mame be admitted into the Umon, as a Separate and Indepen- dent State. On motion of iVIr, Whitman Ordered^ That the wall pews, oa the S. E. side of ihe meeting hou.^e, be appropriated tor the use of such >pectat« rs, as may be invited to take a seat, by any me(nber of the Convention, Mr. Preble, of Portland, rose and observed, that his Hon. Colleague had omitted, in the Resolutions which were yester- day laid on the table, one subject, on which the Convention might find it necessary to act. The act, under which we are assembled, said Mr. P. requires us to frame a Coristitution, to be submitted to the people ; and this may be either accepted or rejected. In the latter case, the Constitution of Massachu- setts, is provisionally, to be the Constitution of Maine, with snch modifications as the nature of the case requires. In such an pvent, said Mr. P. the State would iitdeed have a Constitu- tion, but w^onld be without a name, as we are not at liberty to assume the name and style of the Commonwealth of Massachu- setts. To avoid the awkward predicament in which we might thus be placed, of being a State without a name — Ihe law had authorized and reqvired the Convention, to fix the style and title of the new State. The Constitution about to be framed, must be submitted to the people ; but the Convention alone, have the authority to determine the style and title. And further, as the name is a distinct subject of consideration from that of the Constitution itself, it would save the time of the Committee for drafting ihe Constitution, and of the Convention itself, to settle this question, while 'hey were preparing their report. He Iheret^ore offered a Resolulion, to raise a Committee to report^ a proper style and tiile for Ihe new State. Mr. Whitman said, he considered the motion premature. The first thing, he said, to be settled in forming a Constitution, is the style and title of the new State. It forms a part of the Constitution, and ought to be determined on by the Con.mittee which reports it. U is of the very essence of the duty of tha fra- fuers of the Constitution, to give a style and title to the State 4 * 42 Continual reference must be made, in drafting it, to the nsmt of the Slate ; and it appears to be a great absurdity, to foirii a C(.ns\itution lor a Slate, until a n?»nie bas been given it. A sound construction of ibe act, said Mr. W. will not authorise the Convention to fix this of -heir own authority, until the Cou'^tiiu- ti(n, vvbicb they shall present to ?be people, has been rejected, and then tbe autbority will ner;es?arily devolve upon them. The Convention will be in session in Jafiuary, and it will be in s«ejson, at that time, for them to fix, defimtively, the name and style of tbe new Slate, provided the Constitution is rejected. He was theiefore opposed to the motion. Mr. Holmes said, he was lor having a separate Committee, and not for referring the subject to the same Committee that was to report, tbe Constitution. That Committee, said be, can meet with no difficulty in fran-ine a Constitution and leaving a blank for the name and style. Tbe provisions would apply as well to one name as another. The gentleman hnnself v^ould not find it a hard task to draft a deed, or bond, and leave blanks to be afterwards filled up, by any name it was wi.sbed to have inserted ; nor can 1 imagine that any greater difficulty will be found in this case. The Constitution which we may ofifer to tbe people, may be rejected ; but we are to be a separate state at all events ; and I sFiould be sorry to leave tbe District of Muine, a thing without a name. I hope, Sir, we shall always have a name, and a respectable name. We must apply to Con- gress for adnijssion into the Union ; but if we have no name, but that included in the Constitution, and that, together with the rest of the instrument, should be rejected by the people, by what name shall the application be made ? In what name shall we be admitted ? I should be very sorry, (said Mr. H.) that we should be admitted in blank. And as a name must be adopted in case of the rejection of tbe Constitution, I hope the Convention will provide us with a name. Mr. Whitman ^id, tie ground I took in my former obser- vations, remains unshaken. No constitution ever was framed, without containing the name of the State, for which it was made. It would savor of absurdity, ^o su'^mit to the people a constitu- tion that does not contain tbe name of tbe State. I do not feel the difficulty of applying to Congress, mentioned by the gentle- man from Alfred. The Congress ot the United States will net admit a State into the Union, until they have ihe form of gov- ernment l?efor€ them. The United States are bound to guar- aritee to each state a republican form of government ; they must therefore have the fra'iie of government ot the propose! state, presented to ihem. If the people reject the constiiunon, the Convention may, at the January Session, give the stale a new name. And as the constitution of Masachusetts, must then be our constitution, this is what the Convention will prf-sent to Congress, as the constitution of the new slate, for the adaiis^ion of which into the Union, application is to be made. And w^th this, we may present the name, that may be agreed on in Convention. Mr. EtDery, of Portland, said, I think the matter in debate is a mere question of expediency. I see no «>bjection to the course recommended by either gentleman. The Convention must meet here again in January uj xt. if the const iiution is rejected, when it is returned to the Convention, they may re- consider 'he name they have given to the state, and give il a new name. I see no connexion between the style and title of, the sate, and the great principles of the constitution. I will therefore second the jnotion for the appointment of a committee to report a name, which if accepted by the Convention, may be communicated to the committee, which is to prepare the frame of government. Ml. Preble. Mr. President, I feel it my duty, without re- peating the observations 1 have already made to explain briefly to the Convention, my reasons for bringing the subject before them at this time, and proposing a reference to a select com- mittee. On any event, a name must be given to the state by the Convention. The Convention by a distinct Act^ first determine the style and title of the new Stale. The style and titfe thus fixed and determmed, they will of course insert in the constitution submit- ted to the people. If that constitution should be rejected, the constitution of Massachusetts, with the style and title here de- termined, will be the constitution of Maine. I have heard much conversation on the subject ot the name, and believe there is a variety of opinions. A select committee could bring the ques- tion before the Convention, before the committee on the con- stilution will have tithe to report. It may be discussed and de- cided upon in convention, while otherwise there will be no busi- ness before us. We then shall be ready to enter on the great principles of the constitutions and not be stopped and delayed at the threshold J by a long discussion on a name. My object w®s tc 44 expedite business ; for however it may be with us, (o our con- stituents in this ca^e lime is money. Gentlemen have ar- gued ihe j)()njt, as though it was one of great importance, and urged that it should be referred to the coiiuiiiliee fur drafting the constituiion, with as much zeal, as if they thought a less number was not to be trusted to report a name for the btate. It may, I thidk, be safely confided to a smaller committee, I sh(H>hl propose that the oommillee consist of nine, to be taken, one frutn each county. Mr. Baldwin, of Mercer, was strongly oppo«e'J to the motion. I consider it, said he, as beiongmi^, oi right, to the committee for framing the constitution. I tliink the name an important thing, and that the people have a right to act en that as well as on any othei part of the constitui.on. Judge Thacher observed, that he was In favor of the motion. I do not think it of great importance, said the Judge, but it is the proper and regular way to proceed, to refer this subject ta a select conunitlee. I cannot conceive how the rights of any other committee will be violated by it, and least of all, can I conceive how the rights of a committee, which is not in exist- ence, can be invaded. Judge Dana, ol Fryeburgb. Mr. President, I rise Sir, to op- pose the resolution of the gentlemau from Portland, because I can see no sufficient reason why we should pass it--We have, Sir, after some altercation, and the exprt-s>ion of a great variety of opinions, at length come to the conclusion to appoint a large atid respectable committee, coming tr.m each county, to draft a constitution — a committee selected from the whole Convention} for their intelligence, wisdom and integrity ; and why should we take a part of the constitution, the ''sty ie and title," and commit it to a different committee ? Is not the name, or the style and title, a component part of the constitution ? and deserving of as much aonsiJeration as any other part of ii ? If we divide the subject — and commit a part of it, the style ^^ title, to a select committee — why not go further and commit other parts to other committees, viz. the Bill of Rights to one ; the Legislative Branch to another ; be Executive to another, and so on ; agesof'deliberative assembiies ; but I Uunk every mem- ber of the Convention ::bouId be in bi3?eat, unless* he have leave of absence Judge Green observed, It has been usual in the House of Reprfierjtatives of Uiis Commonwealth, for commiltees to retire without leave. But ih^y retired to apartments in the same building, and could be called in at ar^y lime. Perhaps this case is diffen;nt, as they will be under the necessity of leaving the bouse. It is proper the Conveniion should know where to send for them. Leave was granted. Judge Thacher moved, *hat the member from Dearborn, who IS also Town Clerk, »nd had oniitted to sign the certificate of his return, should have leave to certify, as required by the law. Mr. VVallingford observed, the law will not authorize the Convention to this effect. The certificate should have been made in open town meeting. Juilge Green said, the member has an unquestionable right to make the amendment proposed, at any time, widiout leave. His situation is peculiar — it is necessary fur him to certify for himself. It was his modesty that prevented, and a man ought not to suffer for his modesty. So excellent a (juality ought to be regarded wherever found. I hope the Convention will not put the member to the trouble of ohtaining a new cer- tificate, when the present one may be perfected in a moment. 1 will therefore second the motion. Hon. Judge Cony, of Aui^usta. I conceive, Mr. President, it would be highly improper for the Conveirion to alter or amend any paper which may be presented to it. We ought n.it to interfere, as we cannot give the p:jwer that is a^ked for. If the member can amend, he can do it as well wiihout consent as with it. I hope Sir, the Convention will take no order o» the su(>ject. We may find it a troublesome precedent. Judge Thacher said, it would be improper in the committee to suffer any alterations to be made in papers, without leave of the Convention, from whom they received the pa{>ers, for liiere may be a remonstrance, and the alteration vvouid then be called a forgery. Judge Green observed, the members of the Legislature have bad leave to amend their certificates, and to have thetn prop- erly certified at the adjourned sesjion. Jf we give the member 48 leave, it will save him the trouble of getting a new'copy of the record, and c^n do no injury. I therefore hope it will be granted. The motion passed in the affirmative. On motion oi Judi;e Cony, Resolved^ that Col. Tre-cot, of Lubec, Mr. VVallmgtord, of Wells, and Mr. Tucker, of Bristol, be a comiitittee to consider and report what other RCts, resolves and other do unients, it may be proper to ohtain from the office of the 8jeject. It is a matter of comparative indifference to me, said he, what is the name or style of the State. 'But it is apparent that a deep interest is taken in th's question, and the members of the committees will be desirous of expressing an opinion upon it. They compose a part of this Convention as much as the members now present. I therefore consider it the duty of the Convention to give them an opportunity of acting on important subjects, and that no question should hav^ been taken on this subject, until they were present to act with the Convention. I was desirous of having it postponed, to give them the privilege of debating, and voting upon it ; and I think it strictly pro:>er, that they 52 should be called in for that purpose. It is a matter of impor- tance to Ihein and to the people of Maine. I therefore, move, that after the close of the debate on this subject, and before the final question h taken, the several committees be called in. Judge Thacher was of opinion, it vras proper that in all im- portant questions, the committees should be present ; but he would ask the Hon. gentleman, if it was suitable to go on and disc'iss a question, and then call in the committees to vote ? If he wishes for a postponement, 1 have no objection ; but to dis- cuss it first and then to postpone it, for the purpose of giving them an opportunity o( voting, I can see no advantage in it. Judge Cony was desirous that such a decision should be had on this subject as to prevent the necessity of calling in tha committees ; and hoped it would be postponed, that they mj^ht not be interrupted, in their arduous duties. Adjourned. Jlfternoon. — Voted, on their suggestion, that the committee on the subject of obtaining documents, S^c. from the Office of Secretary of the State, be authorized to enquire what documents it will be proper to obtain from the office of the Secretary of the United Slates. Judgf G-reen, n;oved that the subject of the style and titk of {lie Slate, be postponed until the committee on the constitution can conveniently attend. Mr. Adams, of Gorham, seconded the motion ; he thought it ot sutficient importance to induce the Convention to wait for the aid of those gentlemen. Mr. Preble observed, he had authority to state, that the com- mittee would be in this afternoon to report in part. Judge Green had no objection to its lying on the table, provided it should not be taken up at a time to interrupt the important labors of the committee. Voicd^ That the report-lie on the table. Remonstrances against the electiun of Mr. Vance, of Calais, Mr. Whitney, of Linculnvilie and Mr. Norton, of New-Port- land, were commiited to the committee on elections. Judge Thacher, Chairman of the committee on elections, reported in part ; that, on examining the law, the clause relat- ing to elections, seemed to require, that it should appear that the selectmen presided at the meeting ; and thai in many of tlie rolurns, il does not appear who presided at the meeting ; ■ or that a declaration thereof was i^ade in town meeting; but 53 .nastnuch as it sufficiently appears that the meelitigs were legal- ly held, and a ceriificale of their elections fnade, the committee are of opinion, that they are sufficiently formal to entilie the members to their seats, with certain exceptions. Mr. Preble moved, that the report be recommitted to the committee to report on the cases in which there were remon- strances. ^ Mr. Vance considered it unnecessary to recommit, as if a re- port were made and accepted, it would prevent a seat being vacated, if the remonstrances were supported. Mr. Wallifigford supposed the duty of the committee was confined (o th )se cases, where objections mere made, or remon- strances presented, ag:>inst the returns. Mr. Emery, of Portland, said, it is extremely important that the coinmittee should be speciiically instructed as to the ex- tent of their duty. It was supposed by the committee to be their duty to examine and report upon all the returns. Judge Green observed, that the first examinati )n was only preliminary to the choice of a President. The commiltpe on elections might have reported en the cases only, in which there were remonstrances, or they might report as they have done. And he thought the report should be recommitted, in order that they should attend to such cases as they thmk have legal ob- ject ions- or remonstrances, and give the parties a hearing. Voted — To recommit the Report. The Hun. Mr. Molmes, Chairman of the committee appoint- ed to frame a constitution for Maine, entered the Convention and a«jked leave to make a report in part ; — which wa? a Pie- amble and D-claratiun of Rig-hts, mikmg ^he First Article of the Constitution. After reading the report, the Ciiairman observed, that the committee thought it proper io rep )rt 'a Preafnnie and Bill of Rights, not for the purpose of discussion, or with a view that the Convention should act upon it immediately ; but for con- sideration, and that each member might deliberate upon it ia private, and weigh its several provisions; and that it was the desire of the committee, that it should not be taken up, until they were present. He then moved, that Monday next, at 12 o'clock, be assigned for taking it into consideration. He was not, however, prepared to say, that the committee would then die able to make a report in full. It was then ..fVec^5 That Monday ne.Ki, at 12 o'clock, be assigned fcr.lal- 54 ing the report of the committee into consideration, and that 500 copies he printed tor the use of the members. On motion of Mr. Shepley, ofSaco, it was Resolved, That the committee on Elections he directed to examine all ihe relurns of the members of this Convention, and report who and what members of the Convention are duly elect- ed, and who are not duly elected, and the reaH)ns therefor. Mr. WaUmgford m.'\ed, that no memorial, remonstrance, or other evidence touching the returns of members, be received after to-moirow, Mr Pieble hoped the motion would not prevalL I think this course, said he, would be too illiberal. The District of TVlame is an extensive territory — some members have not yet arrived, and (here may be other remonstrances to be presented, i should think a week or more ought to be given, to receive ev- idence and documents to substantiate the claims of members to their seats — to counteract or support remonstrances — and to re- ceive other remonstrances, if any others are intended to be pre- sented. — If we pass the resolution, submitted by the gentleman from Wells, we may as well at once say, that we will hear no evidence. Voted, on motion of Judge Greene, that the Resolution lie on the table. Adjourned. FRIDAY, OCTOBER 15. The President stated the question before the Convention to be on the report of the committee for determining the style and title of the new Stale as a«]ended by the Convention ; and it should be called the State of Maine. Judge Cony, of Augusta, after enquiring whether he was in -order, and adverting to the subject on which they were about entering, that of giving the future name to the new State, observ- ed, ihal he had no aversion to the proposed existing name — - Isis prepossessions and impressions from long habit were entire- ly in its favcr. But he was led by a view of consecrating the (ipv^ning era of the new community, by rendering an act of jus- lice long delayed, to propose as a substitute the name of Co- xuMBUS. By the successful usurpation -of a mercantile adven- turer," a Venetian manufacturer of maps and charts, the real dis- coverer of the new world had been forever defrauded of the glo- ry which was his due, of affixing his own name to the Western -continent. Sir, what idea eilher great or disl^siguished can we §5 affix to Maine — I have not been able to trace it to any safistac- tory source — but, Sir, the name of Columbus is associated with all that is noble— all that persevering fortitude, or manly vinue could bestow or bequeath. The success of bis voyage of dis- covery stamped immortality on his name — on such a name ihe mind will always delight to contemplate ; and will repose with sati.^faction. The 11 th of Octobefj the day on wluco this Convention commenced its session, was the anniversary of that on which Columbus first discovered signs of land, which the dawn of the following morning fully confirmed. —Judge Cony also alluded to the late Ordinance of Congress, by which the new national ships of the line, were to be named after the different States, in the process of which, the turn of Maine would come late— .but already, he said, the finest ship in the navy, bore the name of Columbus, and atter a lapse of a few years it would be supposed, she was christened for our State. The question, how- ever, he considered, was very much a matter ol taste and feeling. Judge Thacher addressed the Convention, by observing, that as names of things were but sounds or words they hardly- afforded grounds or data for much argument a priori, in favour of one over another; and he acknowledged he felt veryJiltle preference on that account. The name of Columbus/ was about as grateful to his ear, as that of Maine ; but he did not perceive anv good reason for the alteration. The teriiitory / now to be made a new State, and about to take the rank of W nation abroad, is already very well knpwn, in the comnjiereia/ world, by the name of Maine ; which/was a good reaso^ witjt him why a new nan?e should not be given it. The Dis|trictj4f Maine is probably 'as well known am(ong foreign nations as tfie state of Vermont ; which has no commercial interest alTid con- nections, and i« rather regarded ajiiroad as a settleme^it in ithe wilderness. To give the new Stale any other nameihan lihat by which its territory and district has always been would tend to introduce some jlrcertainty 'n th'^ foreigners respecting its geograpical sit'^-^^i^^ time. — He doubted whether th0 knov^n by the people in gr Continent : and if his name Wc- tb'^ nation, under whose ilag doubtful whether many would ' his di.sct)veries were ; and tb( rr>.n^\ h^ made to some antiof 56 bus IS more known and more frequently spoken of in the United States than any where else — The Judge said, he was not dispos- ed to deprive old Columbus of any honours, but he did not think that it was among them to give a name to the State of Maine. Coiumbusdid not discover this part of the continent, nor did he know, as long as he lived, that the Continent he dis- covered, extended to these latitudes — This country was first diocovered by Caboi, Gosnnid, and others- He thought the name of Columbus, if known abroad among the commercial na- tions, would more naturally carry the mind to some part of South Amr-rica, or perhaps to the Columbia River far beyond the Mi^sisippi, on the Western shores of the Continent. He wished not 10 break up and derange the associations that time and business have vyell fixed in people's minds. The District of Maine is every where known as to its situation, commerce and products ; and the State of Maine will naturally take its place in the hum^n mmd— The mind, he observed, had its reg- ular laws of association, as the material world has its laws of gravity, attraction, ^c. ; and these associations were as liable to be disturbed and broke. i, as the eletnents were to convulsion and tempests ; he concluded with expressing his wishes, that his woithy friend, (Dr. Cony) whose ai^e was about the same as his own, might have the plea.«,ure with himself of passing the remainder of their days in peace and tranquillity, under the Old name of M.^me. The motion for stritdng out Maine and substituting Colum- .^us, was lost. Mr. Adams, of Gorham, then moved a reconsideration of the vt te of the Convention yesterday to amend the report of their coi imittee by striking out the word Commonwealth and insert- ii \ "^tate — with a view to the restoration oi the former, as it wa^ reported. He briefly repeated the reasons which he had •) the former discussion, "^, of Edgecorafi, saw no objection to the union of ''..%, common parlaace, Maine would always thould we style it Co.nmo?2tiye«M .^ t think it of any very great '7|3ted ; but still. a sliglii i\^- 57 Terence might be sufficient to turn the scale. There was ^ greater facility in writing and pronouncing S^^a^c than Common^ zvealth. There was one style applied in some parts of the union to the solemnity of judicial proceedings and another used in the familiarity of ordinary conversation. Virginia. Penn- sylvania and Kentucky assumed the solemn style of Common- wealths, but they were never spoken of except as States. He thought that the Court language stiould be assimilated to the common language, as nearly as possible. Nevertheless if Com* monwealth should prevail, he would adhere to it as long as he lived. Gen. Chandler, of Monmouth, expressed his preference for the term Commonwealth as being more sonorous and res- pectable. Mr. Moody, of Saco, thought that as the different commu- nities com[)osing the union were known only as States — that new members were admitted into it as States — and that its dif- ferent sections were recognized by the national executive, le- gislative and judicial departments only under that appellation, it had better be adopted in the present instance. Judge Dana. Mr. President — as we have decided on re- taming Alaine, as the name of our new State, 1 hope we shall adopt Commonxi'ealth in preference to State, not merely be- cause the Constitution Committee, o^ which I am a member, as well as the Committee selected for the purpose, have report- ed it ; but because Commonwealth, as connected with Maine, has a more agreeable sound than State. Two monosyllables or short words, like State oi Alaine, do neither read nor sound well together, when applied to such a subject. Besides, we haveal- .ways been accustomed to tlie term Commonwealth ; we h-'ve grown up under it, and are habituated to its pronunciation ; it is inserted in all our writs, executions and civil processes, and in all our indictments and criminal processes in our judicial pro- ceedings. Commonwealth is a more appropriate term, as it better expresses the thing intended to be named ; it is a repub- lic, a government of the people. State, whether by associa- tion or not, would seem to be applicable to a small territory, and Commonwealth to a large one ; as the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, of Pennsylvania and Virginia ; while small gov- ernments use the term State. When we consider the great ex- tent of our territory, more than 300 miles in length, with a sea» coast of more than two hundred miles, and the many oiaratimc 58 towns rapidly increasing; in wealth and population, and rising into importance ; and when we consider that in point of wealth, commerce and navigation, and population, this must be the largest State east of New-York — the style and title of State of M line, would seem 'v) be inapplicable, and not significant, but rather s/na// and diminutive, when compared with Common- wealth of Maine. I hope. Sir, we shall adopt the latter, which will be more appropriate, will better express our extensive ter- ritory, population and wealth. Mr. Emery, of Portland. It frequently happens that a difference of opinion prevails on subjects from a want of recollection of the import of phrases employed in discussion. I regaid the ter;HS, State and Conamonwealth, as nearly synonymous. If any gentleman, however, should fear that the adoption of the term State would occasion associations of insignificancy fryra the near connexion of two monosyllables, it is believed that upon consideration that fear will vanish. Should it be found, that enough of respectability is included in the definition of the Word in question, it is hoped that the reluctance to retain it wiil be dismissed. As a mean of quieting alarm in this matter, I would beg leave, Mr. President, to introduce the meanings of the sev- eral terms which have been employed in this discussion. I will give their sense according to some of the best lexicogra- phers^ — not tor the purpose of critical examination : but simply that a correct estimate may be had of the general acceptatron of literary men. State — The definitions are, condition, circumstances of nature or fortune, modification of any thmg, estate, signiory, possession, the community, the public, the commonwealth ; a republic, a government wot monarchical, rank, condition, quality, solemn pomp, appearance of greatness, dignity, grandeur; a seat of dignity, the principal persons in the government. — What noble associations ! ! Hepuhlic — Commonwealth — state in which the power is lodged in more than one. Commonwealth — A polity, an established form of civil life ; the public, the general body of the people, a government in which the supreme power is lodged in the people — A repub- lic. Our minds do not always adopt the same course of reasoning to bring us to similar conclusions. The style and title "State,'* has already been accepted. It is not requisite that we should 59 develope the grounds for givine; it our preference. I may how- ever remark, ihat I am not induced to that preference from the mere consideration of savins; lime and paper, in vpriting. BmI I can blame no gentleman tor preferring it on that account. I am satisfied that we never rmcrht to tremble lest insignificance will attach to the term. I am sati-fied that enough of pomp and diijnit) is included in the appellation. We shall not be deem- ed less a republic. And under such a form of government I wish always to live. Mr. Bridge, of Augusta, was of opinion that the style of Com- monwealth best comported with the brevity of Maine, and cor- responded to the slenderness of its sound. The motion for reconsideration was lost. — 101 being in fa- vor, and 140 against it. The report of the Committee as amended, was then accept- ed as follows : AN ORDINANCE Determining the Styfe and Title of the State. Be it ordain'ed and determinkd, by the Delegates of the people inhabit mg the Territory now called and known by the name of the District of Maine, in Convention assembled, that provided the District of Maine aforesaid shall, before the fourth day of March next, be admitted into the Union, as a separate ' ihe two cases, tola.ly de.sirt>ys the ground of all their analogical reason- ing. But if due aiienlion be paid to anolher fact, \.he argu^ ment from analogy will conclude fully, and with all its force, in favor of i\Jr. Vance's holding his seat: the fact is ihis — the 4ilectors of dtlegate% are not ail the same as the eltctoi> of rep- resentatives, but the sanie as the electors (if Senators. And in -thoosing Senators, the electors are not confined (o any iown, but (he county, At iheir candidate ; hence the argument from analogy is, that \\ the j)erson chosen for any particular Iown, U an inhabitant of the county, he is legally qualihed for a Delegate. Mf- Vance, ^^^ silting member, observed, that something bad 65 fallen from the Hon. gentleman from Rumford, which tended t# implicate hin. He felt it his duU to state to the Convention, that he had been absent from the neighborhood of Calais for three vveeks previous to the election ; that he had made no ef- fort to effect hiselection ; that he owned a considerable estate in Calais, and had been the a-gent of that town in important transactions, in which he had always given satisfaction, for a number of years. Mr. Emery, of Portland, said, he was on the committee who made this report, and sincerely regretted that a difference of sentiment had ari?en among the members of the Committee. The objection against the election of Mr Vance, ought not to prevail, unless upon the most incontrovertible reasons. Mr. E. possessed a strong hope, that, from the uniformly candid and ac- xomn.odating spirit which had marked the proceedings of the Convention in regard to the returns of members already quiet- ed in their seats, that no resort would be had to a nice and cap- tious construction for the purpose oi excluding the gentleman who came from a remote part of the District. That his con- duct had not been perfectly fair and honorable in the course of the election, there was not a shadow of evidence. We are called upon by the remonstrance, to destroy the rights of the majority of the electors of Calais. And why ? Because simply that majority have selected a long tried and faithful agent in other affairs, as one, in their opinion, the best qualified to aid in the work before us. They certainly were the best judges of the person most acceptable to them. And they displayed an independence of that local jealousy of merit ^s confined to town lines, which has so often been lamentedr But it is suggested, that upon his being asked whether he belie- ved that a person not an inhabitant oi a town could be sent as a delegate, he avowed his belief that it would be perfectly legal ; and the persons remonstrating thought that the opinion so given, had great influence in securing his election. Il amounts to a declaration that he thought biopelf qnalified for the office ? And had he lost the liberty of speech ? Had not he a right to reply to such a question ? And may it not well be asked whether every candidate for election, does not tacitly,* or expressly, assert his qualifications for the staion ? A major- ity of the town united in Itiis opinion. The others who voted, it is presumed, either from the circumstance of their belief of hie ineligibility, or from other motives, sought to prevent hi? elec- 66 tion. Tbey voted according to tbeir sentiments and their rights. But they failed* because men could not be brought to coincide with them in sentiment. No doubt can remain that they were faithful to themselves, and did their best to effect the election of their favorite. They were unsuccessful. The rights of a mi- nority are to be respected, and preserved to their utmost ex- tent. But in doing that, we are not to deprive the majority of their privilege, when they have done nothing dishonorable or unjust, nor any thing to prevent the free exercise of the elec- tive franchise of the minority. The law under which we have here assembled, does not con- fine the choice of members to the towns in which those mem- bers live. Shall we be wiser than the law ? But it Is said, that our construction should be as strict in this respect, as with regard to a Representative to the General Court. The arguments of gentlemen who have preceded me, would have removed e\eTy doubt from my mind, had 1 for a mo- ment entertamed any. But I would submit to the judgment of the Convention, whether a good reason may not exist for omit- ting the requisition of residence. We know that the exercise of legislative . power biiids the constituent from the completion ol the statute which may be m^ule by virtue of that legislative power. The elector has no opportunity t f revising or objecting : he must submit to the law as his rtpresentatives agree, after be- ing sanciiuned by the Executive. But as to our powers, we ar«" simply as agents for our constituents, to digest and submit to them, a set oi piiiiciples agreeably to which, we expect our laws shall be framied. The instrun^ent which we may form, will return again to the people for their deliberate revisal. They can ratify the doings of their agents then m their tow'i meetings, or they can disapprove them. Till then our acts have no bind- iuii efficacy with regard to those who have confided to us the important concerns in which we are engaged. The distinction t)etween the office of a representative and that of a delegate to 4his Convention, in this view of the subject, is strikingly and strongly marked As to the circumstance that 60, are made to constitute a quo- rum in the House of Representatives of Massachusetts — and al- so of this assembly — it does not aflfbrd the least illustration to the argument from analogy — That enumeration was merely arbitrary for the convenience of determining when those ^^h^ might me^t should commence hu.^inefis. 67 However, it is still asserted that if we. do not confine the elections to inhabitants of towns who send delegates, we might have inhabitants of ihe British Provinces, imposed upon us — Can any gentleman be serious in stating that he believes there is rhe least danger of such an occurrence ? The case of Mr. Vance, is of a citizen of the United States, living in the plantation adjoining the town of Calais, and owning property in that town, which has selected him as their delegate. He has been long known to all the people. They have fully proved his ability to serve them. Now it i? fair that imagination should have full play, as to all the tacts which exist, and every effort of eloquence may be exer- cised to convince us, that upon those facts he is not eligible — But this grave assembly ought not to permit itself to follow the most briHi^nt illusion^ further — When a Brilish subject is palm- ed upon us as a delegate, it will be sufficient for us ;hen to settle his admissibility into our counsels. After a tew observations from Judge Thacher, the vote was taken on his resolution, and decided in the affirmative. During the debate on Mr. Vance's election, Judge Parris, from the committee on the constitution, came in and informed the Convention, that he had been sent by the committee to in- form them that the committee expected to be able to make their report this afternoon at 5 o'clock. This suggestion was made lest the Hon. body should adjourn to Monday. Adjourned to this afternoon. Afternoon. — Mr. Virgin, moved that the vote passed this fore- noon admit! ing \Vm. Vance, Esq. returned as a delegate from the town of Calais to this Convention, be reconsidered. The debate on this subject occupied the afternoon until adjournment, in which Mr. Virgin, Judge Thacher, and Judge Coney took part ; the arguments used in the Ibrenoon were reiterated and enforced. Piuch interest was excited and after an animated discussion it was decided not to reconsider the vote — -49 rising in the affirmative and 106 in the Regaiive. A communication was received frum the committee on the constitution, stating that they were prevented from making their report, as they had informed the Convention in 'he fore- noon, during the session of this afternoon ; but asked leave to h^ve it printed, as they should complete it by evening, for the use of the -nembers. It was accordingly Resolved, that the committee be authorised to cause 500 copies of iheir report ie • '^e printed for the use of the Convenlion. 68 Mr. Wood, was requested to convey this resolution to the committee. Adjourned to Monday 10 o'clock. MONDAY, OCTOBER 18. No business (excepting in relation to the returns of one or tw© members, which passed sub silentio) came before the Conven- tion, until the hour o( tzvelve, when the President called their attention to the Declaration of Rights, for the consideration of which that time had been assigned". Judge Thacher observed, it was a subject of primary im- portance, aiid it was very desirable that the chairman and mem- bers of the committee, for framing the constitution, should be present, when it was discussed ; which would probably be the case, in the afternoon. He therefore, hoped the subject would not be taken up till then. Judge Ames concurred. The commtttee, said he, are thtj ears and eyes of the Convention. The Bill of Kights requires much explanation, and it would be a mere waste oi time to take it up in the ir absence. He also observed, that tl}e chairmao of that committee had expressed a wisli, that it should be de- ferred until his appearance. Information was then received from the committee, that they would probably report a Constitution at 8 o'clock in the after- noon, upon which the convention Adjourned* Afternoon — Resolved, that Henry Smith, Esq. of Portland, be appointed and he is hereby auihorised to draw on the Treas- urer of the Commonweatlh of Massachusetts, to the full amount of the money paid into the Treasury by the several Banks within this District, for the tax upon the same, due and payable the first Monday of the present month, agreeably to the author- ity vested in this Convention, by an Act of the Legislature of said Commonwealth passed June 19, entitled *' An Act rela- ting to the Separation of the District of Maine from Massachu- setts proper, and forming the same into a separate and inde- pendetit State ;" as the amount of the Pay Roll of this Con- vention will exceed the amount of the tax on the Banks due and payable as aforesaid. REPORT OF THE~COMMiTTEE. ^ In Committee. Portland, oct. 18. ^he Committee io vckom was re/erred the subject of a Com- 6^ dilution for Maine, hav6 cUtended to thai subject, and ask leave to Report, J. HOLMES, ChainuiUi. [Here follows the remainder of the Constitution, which it is inex- pedient to insert entire, as the material alterations will appear in the course of the proceedings.] Af.er reading the Report, the Chairman observed, that since the copies ordered to be printed were struck off, the com.nittee had made some alterations and additions, which he now moved should be printed : which was agreed to- On moMon of the Hon. Chairman, it was Voted^ that to-mor- row at 10 o'clock, be assigned for taknig the report into con- sideration. The Convention then went into the consideration of the first part of the report, consisting ofibe Declaiaiion of Rights, which was read, debated, and accppled. section by section. The [)reamb!e a? reported, began, " Wt: the people of that part of Massachusetts denominated (he District of Maine, (J-c. On motion of Mr. Holmes, it was amended, by striking out the word*- i I itrJicks, Jud^e Tuacher, then observed, that the word Maine vvas not aK?iie siifficietJ.t to designate the territory of (he State. The Laws of the Uniteut of order. A committee had this subject betorc them and on their report, after a discussion of nearly a day, and af- ter notice was given that a large part of the committee were present, decided ; and it is now too iale to resume the consid- eration. Ifany thing has been done by this Convention, it has settled this question. Mr. Holmes, made some further remarks in support of his motion. The blank was then ordered to be filled with the style and title of the *' State of M^ine. Mr, Holmes, said he was about to move for the insertion of a name which excited liJicule in none but an atheist. He would therefore move, to amend the report, by striking out the words *' Great Legislator of the Universe," 4'C. and insert those of " Sovereign Ruler.'''* Judge Thacher, preferred the words Almighty God or Jehovah. Mr Holmes, thought there was great propriety when form- ing rules for the government of the people, that we should ac- knowledge our subjection to the Sovereign Ruler oi the Uni- verse : and the vote being taken, the motion was decided in the affirmative. The question, shall the Preamble as amended be accepted ? passed in the affirmative without a division. The first and second sections of the Bill of Rights were then severally read and passed without amendment. On the 3d section being read, Mr. Holmes observed, it was an important subject, and perhaps at that late hour, gentlemen were not prepared to enter on the discussion, and therefore mo- yed an adjournment ; whereupon the Convention Adjourned, 71 TUESDAY, OCTOBER 19. A memorial was presented to the Convention from a commit- tee of the -* Catholics of Maine," stating that under the Consti- tution of Massachusetts they were excluded from an equal par- ticipation of the benefits of government, and praying that by the new constitution, they might be admitted to an equality of religious and civil rights and immunities. Judge Parris, remarked that the object of the memorialists, w^ould doubtless be secured to them by the Bill of Rights, if ado{)ted as reported, and moved that the petition lie on the table. Judge Thacher, observed, he fully approved of the general sentiments of the petition, and hoped all religious distinctions would now be done away, and no more be made objections to political arrangements of the government. We are all children of the same God, in Heaven; and he has proclaimed himself Our Father. Whatever sects or denominations we may have divided ourselves into ; and however we may through prejudice think ours is the favoured of Heaven — nevertheless we are all equal in our rights, and equaUy dear to our Father, if we obey his laws. He trusted no distinction or pre eminence would ever be giveia to any religious sect, as such ; whether Catholics, Jews or Mahometans — The liberal principles of our govern- ment ought to make no difference between them ; so far as we look to the investigation of truth by the force and effect of an oalh, there is no ground for the exclusion of either of ihese great divisions. Does a court of justice rest sati^fied when a chris- tian calls God to witness the truth of his testimony ? and does not the descendents of Abraham call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be present, while they depose, and is he not also the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom chris- tians swear ? 'J'he Mahometans in their most solemn transac- tions, speak in the name of the most merciful God, who is the Jehovah of Jews and christians, 'i'he Hindoos loo, were Ujere any in this country, would be iniitled (ogive sestimony in our courts of justice, tho' they were lo call upon Jugcarnsiut him- selt, as the God th(-y feared — And according to the accounts lately given us by travellers, none is more feared, or more terri- ble to the imagination of devotees. Ordered, That the petition of the Cathf»lics, lie on the fable. The consideration of the Declaration of liighls,. was iheji resumed. 72 The od section being reaei, Judge Thacher moved, te amend it in the first and second lines, in ihe following nianner — *• As it '* is the absolute duty of all men to worship God their creator, ** so it is their natural right to worship him in such way and *' manner as their conscience dictates, to be agreeable to his '* revealed will" — And in support of which amendment, he said, it was substantially the same as is contained in the De- claration of Rights in the constitution we have lived under for forty years ; and he had never seen or heard of a person who denied the truth contained in the amendment, or even in theory or speculation attempted to call in question its propriety. He presumed every member of the Convention was ready to make the acknowledgement ; and if called upon individually to ex- press their sentiments, he had no doubt, but they would all agree to secure to themselves, or any bo*ly of peo- ple, the right not to worship at all, as well as the right to wor- ship according to the dictates of conscience as often as they saw Jit to worship — It being a universal duty, what could a rational be- ing wish for more than to discharge the duty in some mode or other, and having freely elected that mode to have it secured to him against nil interference of others. He endeavoured to illustrate his mettning, by saving Miere are various denominations )f christians in this and every coun- try through' is conscience will permit him to associate with, to suffer a gener- al law to enforce him to do that which he and every body else acknowledge to be a duty ; and he says, his co)Sc;ence, in the particular case, is satisfied with F — When any number of me» 73 have declared themselves to be Baptists and associated tor pub- lic worship, and agreed upon the mode, vvhat inquiry can arise to any one, for the law to say, you shall now worship in themode you say is agreeable to your conscience ? The same mode ot reasoning is equally applicable to each division and sub-division. He concluded by saying he saw no objection to ibis course ot* reasoning, but to say, that the meaning of the phrase, '' ri\f)ii to worship God according to each mans conscience, really and truly meant, to worship^ or not to worship as he pleases.''^ Dr. Rose, of Boothbay, said, he hoped ihe motion would not prevail. The delegates came here, said he, to establish a de- claration of rights, and not a prescription of duties. He thought the amendment, therefore, a deviation from the purpose and object of the article, which was not to poirit out lo the citizens their moral and religious obligations, but by a plain and expli- cit statement, to instruct them in their civil rights and regulate their political privileges. Mr. Herrick, of Bowdoinham, observed, he had no objec- tion to declare it to be the duty of man to worship God ; but he would by no means clothe the Legislature with authority to enforce, by penalties, the performance of that duty. He thought there was a provision in the constitution, that the Legislature should pass no laws repugnant to the constitution of the United Stales, which secured the free exercise of religion. But he was apprehensive that if the Convention should go so far, as to insert in the constitution a declaration, that it is a duty to wor- ship God, the Legislature might hereafter attempt, by penal laws, to compel the performance of that duty. It might be ar- gued hereafter, that if the people solemnly declared the duty, an obligation was imposed on the Legislature to see that the duty was performed, and performed in a proper manner. He would not give a colourable pretext for legislating on this sub- ject. Religion i^ in its nature personal, it is a quality of the heart and not subject to human laws, which by their severe pen- alties commonly make hypocrites and bigots. Judge Thacher said, he thought the declaration did not amount to an enforcement of the mode of performing that duty — that was left to the dictates of our own consciences. But he conceived the right itself to be founded on a duty, and he was of opinion, we ought to insert in the Constitution, an ac- knowledgment of our duty to worship God. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President— 1 rise to explain the reasons 7 74 that induced the Committee to adopt the article as it is. 1, toy one, do not think it is for me to express my own opinion o[ du- ty in a declaration c{ rights. To make it a duty to exercise a tight is preposterous. Individually, 1 believe it my duty to worship God publicly and at staled seasons. But I am not sure but he who believes it his duty to worship l)im in private only, is equally right. It would be difficult, peihaps, to prove in contestioly, \h^{ public worship was any where expresdy enjoin- ed \u scripluie. There may be very conscientious people, ^'ho would insist, with pretty good authority too, that all pub- lic worship waSjpharisaical, and that man to ccnjmune, pro[>er- Jy, with his Maker, should entef into his closet, and not until he had shut the door^ was he to pray to his Father in secret. Worship is the ro/wn/ari/ offering of the fruit cl the heart to a Deity. 1'he moment it becomes involuntary, it ceases to be worship. This was the most difficult suljecl we bad to encounter. We concluded, at length, to decjare the people's rii^bts of ccn- tscience, without attempting to define their religious duties. \i ne introduced into the declaiation our duly, we might niore ; we may incorporate a whole body of ethics. It is a sid jtcl ol extreme delicacy. To prescribe the duty, would be to author- ise the Legislature to enforce it. This wculd excite jealousy and alarm. The worship of God is, and ought to be free. Re- ligious oppression brought cur lathers to Ibis countiy, and their descendants will not fail to resist it. The motion for the amendment was lost by a great majority. I\Jr. Stevens, of China, moved an amendment to this section, which was, after the words '' or obstruct others in their reli- gious worship," to insert,*' nevertheless, every sect or denomina- -' tion of christians, ought to observe the Sabbath, or Lord's «' day, and keep up some sort of religious worship, which to " them shall seem most agreeable to the-revraUod will ofGod." lie thought it dtcorcus and proper for the Constitution to ex- press a solenm opi uon on this subject, not for the purpose of compelling tl»e observance of th^ duly by penal laws. He strongly disclaimed any such wish, and deprecated the at- tempt as much as any man could do, Wui v. iln-ut furnisbmg a pretext tor legislation, he thought the example of the Con- vention would, as it ouglit, carry great weight wiih i^t. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President— I regiet we bati not the ser- \icesoflhe gentleman on the Commiitce. I think, if he had 75 heard the objections and arguments, he would not have offered bis proposition. The legislature have, no doubt, the right to set apart one day in seven, as a day of rest — to select the day, and to prohibit therein labor or recreation. This comes with- in the scope of their general powers. But they have no right to prescribe this as a day of worship, to one who believes that another day is the proper Sabbath. There are those who still think that the seventh day of the w^eek is the true Sabbath ; and it might, perhaps, be difficult to show, to the satisfaction of those people, any positive command to substitute the ^rst for the se-'^enth. The propriety of appropriating the seventh day, was only an inference from the practice of the primitive church, and it would be hard on those,' who felt bound by their con- sciences to observe the seventh day, to compel them in addition to observe the first, by the penalties ol law. Others again think secret worship h a duty, and not public worship, which they condemn as ostentatljus and pharisaical. Judge Thacher inqui^^ed. whether the article does not include, not o»ly all denoiiiinations of christians^ but all religionists? If that be the case, where would be the impropriety of adopting this aaiendment ? Me hoped it would be adopted. We are in no danger froia Sabbath laws; if opposed to the sentiments of the people, they will set them at defiance. The motion was negatived. Mr. Emery of Portland. Mr. President, having heard many gentlemen declare it to be a duty, individually to worship God, but th;it they feared to give the power to the Legislature to en- force the right, I feel a diffidence in introducng an amendment, which m^y have that appearance. I will, however, beg leave to subaiil an amendment, which is, to strike out the word *' worship," and insert '^ exercise the d\i[y of worshipping." The section will then read, '* all men have a natural and una- lienable right to exercise the duty of worshipping Almighty God," d^c. I cannot think this an infringement of the rights of conscience. It seems to me, to steer clear of the objections that have been made to the amendments which have been offer- ed beliire. The duly wdl be recognized, but the power of en- forcing it by penalties, will not be conceded. If there is any memtjer of this Convention, who does not think he or his con- stituents ought to exercise the duty, then he may avow it ; and I wish to have the sense of the Convention on the subject. Mr. Holmes. I fear, Sir, I m>y be considered obtrusive, 76 and must apologize for appearing so frequently. But I feel obliged to explain and defend the principles adopted by the Committee. 1 would not be strenuous in preserving the phra- seology of the repoit, but if the amendment does not change the n.eaning, it is unnecessary. If it does, it amounts to the same as the propositions which have been just rejected. We are in this article to consider the righls, and not the duties, of the peeple. A right to exercise a duty seems inconsistent. A r'ghl is a privilege, a duly is an obligation. A right to perform a duty, is a privilege to be subjected to an obligation. It im- ports a contradiction in itself. If you mean the duty is to be performed in a particular way, then you prescribe the mode of performance, which we have no right to do. Judge Green. Mr. President — 1 hope the amendment will prevail. 1 am constrained to say, I am not satisfied with the article as reported. Before making some remarks, which I shall offer on this subject, however, I desire it may be distinctly un- derstood, that 1 have no hostility to liberty of conscience. On the contrary, 1 have declared before, and I will now declare, that nodenominaiiun of christians, ought to have exclusive priv- ileges secured to them by law. 1 think a government ought to treat lbei» all as equally meritorious ana deservins:. 1 am the last man that would surrender the right of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience. All men have the right to worship God, but 1 think this duty ought to be dis- tinctly avowed. And it is incumbent upjn all men, u{)on all proper occasions, by every imposing word and act, to inculcate upon others the worship of Deity. And to declare on this oc- casion and in this instrument, which I trust is to be perpetual, that it is the duty of man to worship his Creator, can do no harm — it certainly may do good. To omit to do this, would show too great an indiffertnce, on the most important of all subjects. Does not the article stand unguarded, as it is now expressed ? Are we at liberty to exercise that duty or not? This article may be considered as exempting man from ihe perlormf^nce of this duty. I do not believe that this assembly, so august — convened to discharge the most important duties that can be peribrmed, can ^ave it to be said by implication, that I have the right to dispense with the performance ot this duty, and neglect to discharge the obligation. Dj not let us say, men may be excused from the performance of this duty at alL 1 do not think we have a right to say how men shall wor- 77 , ihip ; that they shall worship in this temple or that— at Jeru- salem or on Mount Gerizim. But it is incumbent on us, by ev- 'ery solemn obligation, to recommend to our constituents and to posterity, the worship of God in public or private. It is as much right that we should worship in some way, as it is that we should be left free to worship in our own way ; and in assert- ing too zealously the latter, I hope we shall not lose sight ot the former. If it be safe to say a man may neglect to worship God, you may say with equal safety, he may deny him. And what. Sir, is man without religion ? Ourselves, our property and re- putation, are not safe without it. Destroy religion, and you impair the obligation of an oath. I am sensible religion exists Ro where, but between a man's conscience and his God. But it must exist somewhere— it is our duty to encourage it every where — it is the best security of man. And, Sir, ! do hope this Convention will not hesitate to declare in a body, what 1 be- lieve is the settled conviction of every member, that it is the duty of man to worship his Creator. Mr. Locke, of Chesterville. Mr. President— 1 consider, this a solemn and important subject, and one on which 1 must express my opinion, which is very different from that of the Hon. gentleman last up. He, Sir, has not made the proper dis- tinction between right and duty. 1 consider, Sir, that I have a right to attend at a catholic meeting, but it is not my duty to do it. We have a right to do many other things which are not du- ties. It is not the duty of any one to attend put>lic worship, where he cannot do it agreeably to the dictates of his own con- science. We ought not to be obliged to perlorm the duty of worshipping God by legislative power. The Legislature is de- parting from its proper sphere, when it undertakes to regulate the intercourse between man and his Maker. Religion beJHg seated in the heart, cannot m its own nature be cognizable by human laws. And if we appeal to history, we shall find little fmcouragement for legislating on this subject. Pure religion al- ways flourishes most, when it is left most free. Mr. Wilson, of Bingham, expressed himself in favor of reli^ gious freedom, and in opposition to the motion. Judge Thacher observed, that he thought no member needed to make any apology for bringing forward a motion, either ori- ginal or [o amend a proposition before the Convention. Wnat reason was there for members to apologize for doing that whicfe 78 they came here to do ? We were sent here to form a Constitution, and it is the right, by ihe rules of our body, to speak twice on ev- ery subject brought before us ; and it is the duty of each mem- ber to lend his whole attention to the speaker. Surely the gen- tleman from Alfred needs no apology for frequently addressing the Convention. It is almost necessary for him to be always on the floor. As chairman of the committee, who reported the tbrm of Government now under discussion, he becomes their organ to express their sense, and explain all its parts to the inquiring mem- bers. Discussion is the proper mode to gain information ; and there is no danger of being charged with unnecessary delay in our proceedings. Our constituents do not expecf us to devise, discuss and conclude on a Constitution in a week or fortnight. We came together as strangers to each other, and unacquinted with one another's opinions. The territory we represent is very ex- tensive, and consequently the members of the Convention must have time and opportunity to know the situation and circumstan- ces of the various districts, and opinions, and then to combine and arrange them into some common principle and ground of action* He said he had no fear of being censured on account of expense, provided we finally agreed on a good Constitution. As to the ftmendment offered by the member from Portland, he S'did he was disponed to favor it; — and though he had be- fore been unsuccessful in one ofthe same general nature, yet as ihis had been explained by the mover, he hoped it would be adopted. The former amendment was opposed on the ground that it was feared the Legislature, under that amendment, might aid a religious society in collecting a tax laid by a majority of its members, which the Convention seemed to think might some how or other terminate in a religious tyranny and oppression ; whereas this amendment goes only to recognize the duty of wor- shipping God, but not to enforce it by aid of the civil authority, or to prescribe the manner of its exercise* It secures to every one his own mode 0/ performing what every one acknowledges to be a paramount duty to all others. It is a duty to pay a debt, and there may be various ways of discharging it ; and the law that secures to the debtor any one of these vaiious modes he shall elect to pay it in, one would think a very beneficial law to all debtors. This illustrates our dufy to worship, or the true relation we stand in to God, our Creator and Governor ; and the amend- ment is intended not to enforce the discharge but to protect each 79 worshipper to discharge the duty according to the dictates of his conscience. Gen. Chandler was opposed to the naotion. I consider it my duty, said he, to worship God ; but there is a difference be- tween religious duties, and political duties. One may be a proper subject of legislation, and not the other. We were not sent here to prescribe (he religious duties, but to determine the rights of the people. This is a religious duty, but not in my opinion a political duty I believe it is better to have the ar- ticle stand as it is. The only objection to the amendment how- ever is, that it may be thought to authorise the Legislature to enforce the observance of (he duty by penalties, which would be an infringement of our rights. Mr. Usher, of Hollis, said he hoped the amendment would be made in such a manner as to enforce the duty and also secure the rights of conscience. While the people are protected in their rights, we should guard against their licentiousness. He could see no reason why every one should not be required to contribute, in some way, to the support ol religion and the wor- ship of Almighty God. Dr.Thayer, of Fairfield,hoped the article would not be amend- ed It secures to us the important righi of religious Ireedom ; and we may learn our moral and religious duties from another source. If men will not learn them from the Bible, they will learn them no where. If we go further, we may make hypo- crites, but not christians. Judge Thacher wished to make this article so as to acknowl- edge the duty, as well as the right, Mr. Emery. I have not indulged the belief, that the chair- man of the conimUtee had any partiality, or pride of opinion, in regard to the phraseology of the report. I believe, if the alter- ation is made, there will be no collision about it, among our constituents. When we only assert, what they all have learnt from a higher source, in iheir early pupilage— when we express the deep sense of the assembly of their delegates, of their obli- gations toijrod — it cannot be calculated to make them hypocrites. And I do hope we shall, by the most perspicuous and suitable lan- guage, express our duties as well as our rights. 1 fear, Sir, some misunderstanding exists respecting the effect of this amendment. It will lead to none ot the consequences that are apprehended. I cannot see the possibility of a chance, that the Legislature will exercise a power, that will endanger 80 the security nf the persons, or liberty of the people, or abridge, or contract the rights of any sect or individual. I beg that this assembly will not be terrified by any imaginary evil, that can arise from adopting this amendment. h is only a naked ac- knowledgment of the duty, and implies nothing more than is said. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President — 1 have not been able to satis- fy myself, from the arguments of the gentlemen, that any good would arise from the amendment. The article is very impor- tant. But I do not know that vye are to prescribe duties to our constituents. This amendment may impose an obligation on the Legislature to compel the performance of this duly. 1 do not believe religion is in danger from liberality. 1 trust it has better props, than any this Convention can establish. The peo- ple will tell you they know their duties, and that they sent us here to guard their civil rights, but not to instruct them in the prt:cepts of religion. This article is like charity itself: it hopes all thirigs. it believes all things; it is without partiality, and void ot hypocrisy. The question was then taken on the motion to amend, and it was lost by a large majority. Mr. Whitman rose to address the chair. He commenced by ob>erving, that this article in the Bill of Rights as far as it went was very well — but that it was wholly ot a negative character. We have (said he) very properly guarded against the undue exercise of power ; and have determined what the Legislature shall not do — but we have not said what they shall, or may do. While we prevent their doing harm, we should at the same time provide for (heir doing all the good that may be possible. Religion is, to be sure, a matter between a man and his ma- ker. But if il be valuable in the highest degree ; in its effects upon the community, as every one must admit that it is, we ought to take care as far as may be consistent with the rights of individuals, to cherish it,^nd derive from it every possible ad- vantage. All government is in a manner founded upon reli- ojon — it constitutes the basis of social order. If we have a gov- ernment of any Vi^lue to the people, yet if we have not a mora! people, if corruption gel into yuur legislative or executive de- partments, anarchy must follow. Now then can we so well pro- mote good morals, as by religious inslruction> ? Religion is what has ever distinguished us as a people. The superiority of our in- stitutions, particularly in Nen Ens;land, over those of other na- tions, ii principally lo be ascribed to the religious character of 81 the people. While then, on the one hand, we guard against op- jjression and secure to individuals the enjoyment of their rights, OH the other we should not tie the hands of the Legislature, in such a manner as to prevent their doing any thing to uphold reli- gious institutions, which inculcate good cnorals and cherish reli- gious prniciples. By. this bill, the Legislature have no power to make provisions for its support. Can they have this power without endangering religious freedom ? I think they can, Sir. By the article, as it now stands, no power is given to make do- nations ; or to incorporate Trustees for the management of funds, or donations, made by individuals. Whether such a pow- er would result from any construction which might be given of if, is at least doubtiuL We have now many religious corpora- tions that have from time to time been endowed; and shall we not have the power to protect these endowments, and to extend this patronage, as the public interest may require ? This would not endanger religious freedom ; it would be a salutary power, and not liable to abuse. Sir, the peoplr of this country sre jealous of their liberties ; but this jeaiou-y, laudable within cetiain limits, may be carried to a pernicious extreme ; and this is the case, when, from appre- hension of danger to their freedom, they withhold such powers from their rulers. Our real security, in this particular, lies in the frequency of our elec'ions. Wiisle the frequency and puri- ty of elections continues, I feel no apprehension for the security of the liberties ofour c< untry. There are various things which m'l^^Ui be done for the encour- agement and uphokliig of religion and religious institutions^ which would, in no wise, ati'ect the rights of con-cience. These the Legislature ought, not only to have power, but it should be theit duty to do. 1 would lUerefore beg leave to propose the following amendment :— - *' As the happiness, of a people and the sjood order and pres- ervdiion of civil government especially depend upon piety, re- ligion and morality ; and as these cannot, generally, b** diffused bufby the msiiiutijMSof the public worship of God, and of pub- lic instructions in piety, religion and morality — Therefore, to promote their happiness, and to secure good order, and the pres- ervation of their government, the LegjisU'ure shall have power, and are hereby authorised, by all suitable means, to enc(.urage and support the i?i^titutioris «)f pui>lic worship, and of public m- struction in the principles of piety, religion and morality." 82 Gen. Chandler thought the amendment unnecessary, as all the powers the gentleman contended for, he thought, were con- tained in another part of the constitution, reported by the com- mittee. Judge Parris. I was not disposed to speak on the third section, and did not expect there would have been one word of debate on the subject. But I am opposed to some of the princi- ples of this amendment. It is well known, Sir, that the people are divided into diflferent religious sects. Some one may here- after become predominant, and I am opposed to trusting them with the power of putting their hands into the public chest, and appropriating to the exclusive benefit of their own sect, the funds ot the State, Such things may happen, Sir, and the parties will plead this article in their defence ; they will say it is ap- propriating money for the support of religion, and they will un- doubtedly think it '^ suitabte^^' that their own sect should have the preference. The v/ord suitable is of the most extensive im- port, sufficiently so, to cover any means that any Legislature may adopt, as they, and they alone, are constituted the judges of what is suitable. 1 am not disposed to trust men too far. A written constitution has its origin in a salutary jealousy of power, and the very object of it is to define the otherwise indefinite and unlimited povtcrs of governwieni. Mr. Holmts. Mr. President — I did expect, from the argu- ments of the gentleman, a very different proposition from the one laid oii the table. The arguments were on the propriety of authorising a con- firmation of grants or donation? already made. But how differ- ent is the one offered ! The Legislature shall have the power^ and are hereby au.horised, by all suitable means, to manage and uphold {he institutions of public worship. Sir, 1 will never con- sent, on any consideration, to put any restraints upon con- science. Religion needs no aid from government. 1 tremble when I thi'ik of the fatal effects, which have resulted from the interference of ibe civil authority in matters of religion. Power is a dangerous word in religion. I tremble at its influence, when exercised in connection with the passions of men Rivers of blood have flowed from religious intolerance, when aided by power. Adopt the amendment, and what prevents the institu- tion of inquisitorial power ? The Legislature might consider thf^ establishment of one sect, to the exclusion of all others, as " the most suitable means." On this subject, Sir, it is the bu- 83 •ciness of the Convention to restrain, not to give power. Man is ever in love with power. Give him power, and he will be in- clined to forget right. Let us take care how we trust fallible man. Experience proves that he is often weak, and sometimes wicked, 1 hope that a principle so danj^erous, so destructive to religious liberty, will not prevail. Give your Legislature a power to uphold religion, and trust to their discretion for the suitable means ^ and you arm them wilh a weapon which might prostrate in the dust, your religious liberties. It is the same power, which in other countries, and other limes, has sanction- ed the most inveterate and cruel persecutions. By its aid, brothers have assassinated brothers, and parents have seen their children expire in torture at the stake. Louis XIV. thought the revocation of the edict of Nantz, '' suitable means.*' A confes- sor whispered in his ear that religion was in danger, and he thought the safety of the church was in danger — and he thought that the sal'ety of the church was cheaply purchased, by the death or exile of hall a million of his most useful and industri- ous subjects Every mode by which men could harra^-r, torture and de^t^oy one another, have been thought suitable means. It does not satisfy my mind to be told merrily, that neither we nor our posterity shall probably abuse this power ; and this is all that can be promised. I would not give the power, snd then only can we be sure it will not be abused. Before we adopt this proposition, let us hesitate — let us pause ! Judge Thr^cher observed, that if he had just taken his seat in the Convention and had not heard the amendment read from the chair, but was left to collect the subject before the Conven- tion from the speeches of the gentlemen, he should have conclud- ed from the high colouring, the animated countenances, and the pathetic appeals to the par-sions displayed on the occasion, that some fair widow had wi'.hin a few days been consecrated on the funeral pile of a deceased husband and that John Rog- ers wilh all his family and the infant itself in the arms of his mother were then writhing in flames at the very door of the iiou e. Indeed in the n.idst of so much agcny and tragedy, he ihought he could see the smoke of faggots filjiiig the hall. [Here the President sugsjested to the speaker, that he doubted ulielh- er he wasii older] The JuJge continued, thai he thought if the gentlemen had given them a little ntore logic, wilh le?sili)- Cjuence and path;.>s, it would have had a more rational effect. In lhe.se days of efilightened wisdom he did not believe there w?.5 84 any danger of the perpetration of the barbarities and cruelties that have been so feelingly described, lie saw no reason why the Legislature might not be authorised to assist the societies mentioned in the proposed amendment, and he hoped it would prevail ; for he thought it a salutary provision to preserve our existing wholesome institutions, and also to increase their good efffccts. Judge Parris. Mr. President, from the explanation given by the mover of this amendment, I think it needs no power of elo- quence, or any argument of reason, to point out the odious con- sequences which may follow, if it is adopted. If I understand the object of the provision, it is to give the Legislature the pow- er of endowing religious institutions. Sir, I do not believe the people are prepared to give them this power. I am for restrain- ing ihe Legislature ; I am not for empowering any sect to thrust their hands into the public Treasury and take the public property to endow their religious institutions. As far as lean go with the gentleman, to support the cause of religious princi- ples, and leave the conscience free, so far i am wi:h him. But 1 see the dangerous tendencies of the exercise of this power; and cannot consent to give it to them. Mr. Whitman. Mr. President — 1 could not have believed that the amendment I proposed would have excited such fears. I did not imagine it could possibly be so tortured as to frighten gentlemen out of their wits. I could not perceive that such dan- ger would have arisen from it, or that ii was fraught with the evils imagined, or I would immediately withdraw it. The amendment was but a transcript from the Bill of Rights of Massachusetts, under which we had lived, in perfect security, ibr nearly forty years — and it was without any of the obnoxious provisions which accompanied it in that Bib of Rights. It is without the provision that every person shall be obliged to at- tend on some religious instruction, and to pay somewhere for it; or to con)pel towns and parishes to support religious instruction. We have (said Mr. W.) already adopted every salrguard a- gamst. oppression. We have provided that there i^hall tje no preference of one sect to another ; and have secured relii^ious freedom in its fullest extent ; and there we are to stop. Reli- gion is certainly not only valuable in itselt as it respects the prospects of our future welfare, but ii is conducive to the best interests of civil society. The government which is best admin- isteredis best : and government cannot be well administered 85 where the morals of the people, and their rulers are corrupt : and in what way can we be sure of good morals without the aid of religion.^ It not only inculcates the best of principles, but rivets them upon the mind. It is the duty therefore of civil government, to adopt the best means (or the preservation of the morals of the people. We all know the efifects of a virtuous ed- ucation. We have all experienced the utility of public re'igious instruction. The early instructions we receive in private and in public sink deep in the youthtul mind ; and grow with their growth pnd strengthen wi?h their strength. If then, morals de- pend on religion and the support of civd government u{)on mor- als, is it not the duty of every government, by all suitable mean?, to uphold and encourage the institutions (or public instruction in the princij>les of religion ? What would be ihe situatiim of any governnipnt wilhout religion ? How much depends on the obli- gations of an oath ? What, but for (his, would I;e the situation of our tribunals of Justjce ? Wilhout this sanction they would be but engines of oppression. Shall civil government Ihen, the administration of whicii has iis basis in religion, refuse to it the aid of its e icouragpfnent ? Will you tie the hands of ytiur Legis- lature, and deprive it of all power to promote your best good ? The alarms of my colleague, continued Mr. W. are ground- less. 1 am astonished that he j-hould not discern whr.t will be the import of this article should this amendment be adopted. No single provision taken by itselt\ and disconnected with every other. Out may be distorted, and made what, if taken in connec- tion wi h the residue, it would not mean. Let this amendment be adopted, and the possibility of an undue exercise of power will, by tlie piovisions already adopted, be so guarded that this amendment will but furnish a salutary power, which ought to be lodged somewhere. Pious donations may be made to soci- eties and acis of incorporation of Trustees for their management may be necessary : without which the benevolent intention of the donors cannot be carried into effect. .And shall yoor Le- gislature afford them no aid ? And is it mt Mided that the Legis- lature shall never aid in the cause of religion, for fear it will abuse the power ? The argument of the gentleman from Alfred (Mr. Holmes) would go to the destruction of all power in any body of men whatever. There is no power but may be abused Yet we arc about to entrust our Legislature with our lives and fortunes. hnay create offences and annex penalties in any number and 8 86 to any degree : And, yet, you cannot entiust it with fonccr to encourage and uphold religion ! a power which n«ver has been abn-^ed under the constiliition of Massachusetts ; and which we may safely calculate will never be abused under our own. Are we growing less enlightened and less liberal? Can we doubt that our legislators — nien of our own choosing — who must be subject to the laws they make — who are to be elected for short periods and are then to return to the mass of the people — can we doubt that the power to encourage and uphold the institu- tions for public instruction would be sale in sucb hands ? Mr. VV. said he believed he had never been suspected or ac- cused of religious bigotry or iiitoleiancr — that from experience and observation, he had been made to believe the suppoit of any sect or denoniination of christians, seriously believed to be such, would be pielerable to the support of no religion. He would therefore cheerfully afl'ord them all equal encouragement and support. Although religion, as it lespects individuals, may be a question between man and his maker, civil society, uevertht- less, as such, may and ought to derive trom il evtiv possible advantage, consistent with the rights of conscience. AVith this view, i( with no other, il is the first duty of every goveinment to encourage, uphold and maintain it. Mr. W. hoped, there- fore, that an amendment so innocent, and intended to confer a power so desirable, encircled as ii would be by so niany bar- riers against an abuse (>f il, viould not be refused to ibis consti- tution. There have Indeed been complaints of the exf rci^e of this power by the Legislature of Matrsaehusetls, in grar.ling lands to the first religious society ir^ new towns. 'J Ins has generally given those lands to Congregationalists, but it was anadvetUiiious circumstance, irom their having l)een the first rei!gi(;us i-ociely in the towns. But when any other sect, as the Baptists, have been the first society, they have had the benefit of thii provisrion. Judge Thaclier. He could not see the danger so ntuch appre- hended by souje gentlemen. — He confessed he feaiifd none of them. — they were to him merely imaginary. As far as he could iindeistand the grounds of the evils so ir.uch depiecaled, they seemed to be founded on a general idea (hat the moral a7'd jjo- lineal worlds zvere retrograde on the scale o/ rmproveinent. and that man mas growing worse and worse. Ihis was not his creed. — Neilher*the history he had read, or his own observation for more than fifty years, gave any counletiance to such notions. 8t He doubted whether any Legislature would be convened undet this Constitution for a cenlury to come, or during the existence of t^e Constitution, Uiat would be less disposed to consult, and act for the common welfare than this Conveniion now are ; and he would declare to them individually that he had a very strong persuasion of their good intentions to save the public. We did not distrust ourselves ; why then sliall we disiru?t our future legislators, m those things, of which their future situation will probably enable thesn to form a more correct estimate than we can now do ? Let us look back in the old nations for five hundred years ;• — to the invention of printing and the com- Hiercial uses of the magnet ; — do we not find a gradual improve- ment in every thing pertaining to the happiness of society, and I might almost say to the actual amelioration of the nature of man himself? In how many instances do we see laws, made to prevent crimes repealed or become entirely obsolete, because the moral state of society has rendered it impossible for the crimes to exist ? Are we not improving from year to year, and are not our laws niore and more ad,ipted to the free exercise of all the natural rights of man and particularly so as to religious rights 2 A^ evidesice of this, he referred gentlemen to a candid review and comparison of the ancient colonial, provincial and the Commonwealth system of laws. The vote was then taken on accepting Mr. VVhitman's amend- ment, and it was decided in the negative. Mr Hobb-, of Berwick, said he had it in his mind to move to have the last p^rt of the section stricken out ; but as gentlemen seemed disposed to retain it as it is, he would wish to have an addition m jde to it ; and moved that the following amendment be adopted, viz. : *' Nor shall any one ever be obliged to pay any tax, or rate for the building, or repairing any meeting- house or placeof worship, contrary to his own voluntary engagement.'* Mr. Holmes. The committee had this subject under consid- eration. But we concluded it would be going too far. To say that a man should not be compelled to aid in building a house of worship unless he had given his consent, would be to destroy all corporate powers. Shall a man lay by, and if the place or construction of the building does not exactly suit him^ be exempt because be did not vote ? Most surely this man ought to be bound by all the lavfful acts of tlie corporation, so long as he continues a member. The motion was negatived. ti8 The question vyas then taken on adopting the third section, as aintnded, and it passed in the affirnjative. Adjourned. AFTERJVOOf^.-^The 4ih station vi^s t?ken up. Mr. Holmes moved to amend the concluding clause, which read *' in ail indjcimenls for libel«, 'he Ju^y shall have a right to determine the law and the Juct under the direction oj the conrt,^^ so as to read ** theJury^ after having rtceiveU the direction of the couit, shall have a right to determve, at their discteiion, the law and the/act,^' Judge Thacher said, he did not know whelher he had any feelings on this sul ject that aniounied to a predeliction for the amendment, or the arlicle as reported. He could not see how it could be a question of niuch importance whether the jury de- cided before or after die charj^e, if their fi'idir^^ svas to settle (he law. In all cases IJje jury give such a verdict as thfy please ; but if, on a correct statemtnt o* the evidence by ih* court, it appears their verdict is contrary to the law of the h^i^d^ the court set aside the verdict and put the csnse i'> a n^w trtal. This right of the court has been acknowleo'ijed \u England from ihe earliest history of the law, and in tiiis country f* ?t) its first settlement. He said he saw no g»iod reaj-on for making a djs- :inction between actions or indictuiefas fur libels,and olher caus- es of actions and other crimes. He said his exptiierce did not warrant a conclusion that it was a case of sufficient importance (o engage the attention of the Convention. When at the b?»r he had been engaged in a faw causes cf iiUels ; and had been on Jhe bench whun one or two indicUnents lor libels were tried ; ihey weie cases of no great importance ; nor did he see any hing in their natures diat ought lo e?cite moie feeling and in- itrest than other causes of action ot the same value in point of property. When at the bar he argued them as he did olher oauses ; and on the bench he felt no otherwise than he did o» '.^iher trials ; he endeavoured to decide on the adniiss on of ev- idence cs he did in other causes, according to the general rules of evidence, and in summing up to thejuiy,he felt the .same disposition to be impartial as in all other cases It was a fnct, some people were apt to work themselves up to a fever heat lo c-inses thai rarely hi^ppen, be the subject in dispute of great or .small value in point of prcperty ; but he saw no reason lor Bilk- ing any constitutional provision on the general i-ubjrct ot libeJs, rather than any other — He thought it better to coi fide in men sikilled in a particular subject than in those vrho were not. Ibis 89 is as proper when applied to lawyers and judges, as to other pro- fes«us offences should be investigated by a grand jury. There are other minor crimes which it is not so important should un- dergo this investigation. Mr. Wallingford observed, that magistrates, by the law as it now stands, have the power to punish petty larceny and other offences which are infamous. This section will take that power from them which it may be desirable for them to exercise. Mr. Holmes proposed to insert the words *' or in such cases of offences, as are usually cognizable by a Justice of the Peace" (which were not in the repori ) This would meet the wishes of the gentleman last up, and answer the purpose requir- ed This amendment was accepted. Judge Thacher enquired into the meaning of the provision relating to the trial oi militia, 4*c. in time of war and public dan- ger. Mr. Holmes said public danger, in this section, means a state of rebellion, or in^pending invasion. The nilitia are to be called out to repel the threatened invasion, or to suppress the rebellion. They are not then entitled to a trial by jury. They are under martial law, when called out for the public safety, although not in time of war. Judge Cony suggested an amendment, in the last sentence, after the words '* The Legislature shall provide,'' to insert ** by law^^ (not in the report ) Ibis, remarked the Judge, re- gards a subject of very great importance, and the Legislature ought not only to provide for a mode of selecting juries, but to do it by standing laws. The amendment was adopted. The 7th section then passed without a diviiion ; as did the 8th, 9th and 10th sections. Section 1 Ith was read, and Mr. Baldwin, of Mercer,moved to amend, by striking out the words ** ex post/acto law," and in- serting in lieu thereof the following : — " Laws enacted for the punishment of crimes, committed before the existence ot such law?, and by them on'y deemed criminal, are oppressive, un- just and incompatible with liberty ; wherefore no such law shall be made or exist in this State." Mr. Baldwin gave his reasons at some length in support of this 91 ^amendment. He said every man has a right to know what his rights are. But the people in his part of the country did not understand Latin, as he supposed the words ex post facto were ; and it would be with an ill grace we shall tell our children we do not know their meaning — the meaning of the constitution we have been forming. Mr. Holmes. We were so fortunate, as to have the benefit of these same observations in committee. There {he. gentleman betrayed no ignorance of the expression. I'here was no sub- ject learned or unlearned which escaped him. This extreme modesty must have induced him to feign an ignorance which he does not possess. The expression is perfectly understood by the gentleman, and he proved it by offering a translation as a substitute. It is a little singular that the words habeas corpus escaped the gentleman's criticism. That too is a Latin expres- sion. Why did he not propose to translate that ? Sir, the gen- tleman does not want a translation. The amendment was negatived. Mr. Wallingford moved to strike out the words " and no at- ' tainder shall work corruption of blood nor forfeiture of estate." Mr. Holmes. Mr. President — I will satisfy the gentleman that his objection is groundless. A hill of attainder is a legisla- tive act, convicting or attaining particular persons or particular offences. These legislative attainders are prohibited, as in the highest degree tyrannical. That which is regulated in the lat- ter part of the section is ^ judicial attainder. General laws will define the crimes and prescribe the punishment, and if the pun- ishment be infamous^ the offender is attained by the judgment. Such an attainder may still attach, but it shall in no case '* work corruption of blood or forfeiture of estate." After some explanations by the mover and Judge Thacher,the motion was rejected. The lllh section and the following sections to the 19th inclu- sive, then passed without division. Section 20th was amended on motion of Mr. Neal, (of E.) hy adding ^' the party claimim^ the right may be heard by himself and his counsel or either .,04 his election, ^^ Judge Thacher moved to strike out the words '' concerning property." Judge Bridge, of Augusta, thought the words ought to be struck out. There are other controversies, said he, besides those concerning property, as those concerning reputation, 4'C* Judge Parris made a similar remark. 92 Mr Holmes said, T consid<;r the portions of the section as dis- tinct ; there are civil suits, and coniroverfcies conceining proper- ty. Tbe^e are cases which are not merel}' civil, nor merely criminal. I therefore move to insert after *' surts" *' in all." Thi.* amen(tment was ado[)ted and the section passed as amended. Mr. Millikin, of Frankfort, njoved to amend the 2l?t section, by inserting after the word '' suits" — '' nor indvndual services requved,''^ uiih a view to *be compensation of ttie militia. Mr. Dickinson, of Machias^ and Judge I'hacher, thought the provision too general. The motion was negatived 136 to 40. This and the remaining sections then passed without division. Fo?ef^,unanimously, that the report of the committee as report- ed in part (the Declaration of Rights) be adopted by the Con-- vention as amended. Voted, on motion of Mr.Hohnes, that the Declaration of Rights be committed to a revi-ins: con-jmitfee. Messrs. Holmes, Whitman, and Johnson, of Belfast, were ap- pomted said committee. The committee of elections reported that Mr. Whitney, of LincolnviIle,was entitkd to his seat. Accepted. And the Con- vention Adjourned. WEDNESDAY, OCT. 20. Col. Aiherton, of Prospect, moved that the following be adopted as an additional section, in the Declaration of Rights : *♦ No law shall be made by which any mdividual may be subjected to the performance of any militia duties, from which, or a direct equivalent, any white male inhal i'ant, of respectable character, and o( the same age, is by a law of the State ex- empted *'' Head, and ordered to lie on the table. The same gentleman then offered the following resolution : — *' Resolved^ That a committee of nine, one from each county, be appointed to take into consideration the expediency of lo- eating tiie spat of gover-nment for years, and to designate the place tnost suiiable for that purpose, and also for the first meeting of the Legislature of the new State, and for the organi- zation of ils government; and that the said committee be in- structed to report previous to the final question being taken, on ihi^ acceptance of the whole constitution." Oen. Chandler regretted that the subject was brought up.at 93 this time, and hoped no time would be assigned to take the sub- ject into consideration, at least, not until the constitution is com- pleted. The teelmgs of gentlemen would be enlis^ted, and he feared the great object would be lost sight of, by discussing one of minor consequf nee at an improper time. And he did hope, that nothing would take place which should interfere with the important business of the constitution. Judge Thacher. I think it should not be considered until we have finished the constitution —We are then to determine where the first meeting of the Legislalure is to beheld. To consider it now would obstruct the completion of the principal business of the Convention. The resolution w?s th^n ordered to lie on ihe table. THE COjYSTITUTIOJW ARTICLE II. ELECTORS. Section 1 was takf?n hito consideration. Mi. ir ni?^ Tivv<"d to amend ♦'li'? section by insetting the wor-Js ^'jor th-ee months next prectduig any eledioji,'** which were noi m the iep)rt This amen tnent passed without discussion or remaik. M". Sheplev. A :> ico moved to insert ** tho.fe who have been convicted of any in/citno us crime and not pardoned ^^"^ to be aoted to those pj^rsous excf pted from being electors for G(>ve»nor, 4rc. Jijflge Ttiacher said, he hoped the acnendment would not be agreed to; because conviction before iusiices of the Pface is not a certain criterion that the su'iject of the tri^l was a felony, or an mlamous crime. He hid known many cases where per- sons had been convicted before a Justice of the Peace, of felo- niously taking and stealing the piopprty of another, and fined by the Justice, when the case, being fully and fairly examined by persons sufficiently a^qu-nnttd with the distinction betv^een trespass and stealing, it would appear that nothing infamous had been done — it was a mere trespass b^ one on the property of another — or a di-pute between two persons as to the »i le to a particular piece of properly — many examples of which he had been acqunijted with in the course of his practice, and would detail to ihe Convention if requiied. Should the amendment be agreed to, it might place the presiding officers at elections in an unpleasant situation A voter being charged at an elec- tion wi'li having been convicted, &,c. how shall it be tried ? The conviction may be stated as taken place in a foreign country.— If a paper is produced, purporting to be a copy of a conviction 94 as proof of the fact ; and the voter shall say, and offer his oatb, that It is a forgery, what shall be done ? Suppose a lad eight, nine or ten years of age, should in fact be convicted before St Justice of the Peace of felony on a nest of hen's eggs, or some trifling piece of property ; and afterwards become a good and worthy member of society, will this Convention declare him forever after unworthy the privilege of voting in these elections ? He hoped not. There are many deviations from rectitude in youth that ought to he tbrgotlen and fo'given when the regularity of, riper year? have made atonement by a regular and virtuous life. Judge Cony. Mr. Pre^iJent — I am not prepared to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Saco. If we adopt this amendment, it will carry us too far. The object of the mover is to preserve the purity of elections. This is certainly very desirable ; but we should not extend it beyond proper limits. The man who has been convicted of a crime may repent of his misdeeds, and become a reformed man and useful member of society. The most infamou:s characters may be pardoned. — But if he be really reformed, it would be hard to deprive him of a right so dear to him. Mr. Usher thought it would be productive of difficulty and inconvenience in its operations. It would embarrass presiding officers at elections, by making it the duty of selectnjen to in- quire too closely into men's characters. Mr. Wallingibrd agreed with the gentleman in his moiive, but presumed he had not considered the objections that may be raised against his amendment. The seleclmen of towriJ* were a v*^ry improper tribunal to decide on the characters of citizens, or to determine that a man stood convicted ot an infamous crime. A copy of the record of his conviction beture a Juslice ol the PfHCe might be pn)duced, to substantiate the fact, but that would be inconclusive, as the judgment might have been reverst^d in ^ a higher Court. Mr. Shepley was in favor of the amend^Dent, rot only because it ?ended to preserve the purity of elections, but also for the g'ud effects it was calculated to produce in the community, without regard to elections. Young persons nould be n ore cautious of committing crimes, and Courts would be more care- ful of convictions, when they saw such consequences as the re- sult. He apprehended there was not much weight in the ob- jections which gentlemen bad made. As to the cases of im- proper convictions, before Justices, which sometimes happen^ 95 every one has the right of appeal, and may have the judgment reversed. He saw no difficulty in selectmen's deciding by the record with sufficient certainty, when a nrjan has been convicted of an infamous crisne. If he offers lo vote, he cannot be re- jected unless a copy of his conviction, from the Court where it was had, was produced ; and if he were pardoned, or the Judg- [nent reversed, he might have the evidence of it in his possession. Dr. Phi'Ips, of Weld, said, he hoped the motion would not prevail, as it would be productive of iiiconveniences in town meetirr2;5. How are we to decide at the time of elections, whether a person has been convicted or not ? He may not al- ways have the evidence of his pardon with him, or a town the evidence of his conviction. If a vote were given in by him, and it were afterwards ascertained that he was not enHlled to vote, the election might be considered illegal. The motion was negatived. Mr. Vance, of Calais, moved to insert *' Negroes''^ after '* In- dians not taxed." Mr. Holmes. The *' Indians not taxed" were excluded not on account of their coloui, but of their political condition. They are under the protection of the State, but they can make and execute their own laws. They have never been considered members of the body politic. JBut 1 know o( no difference be- tween the rights of the negro and the white mai] — God Al- mighty has made none — Our Declaration of Rights has made none. That declares that *' all men" (without regard to col- ours) '* are born equally {ree; and independent." Mr. Vance and Dr. Rose spoke in favour of ihe motion, but it did not obtaui. Gen. Chandler was in favour of striking out •* eslabHshed," and inserting ^' he has,'' to which Mr. Holmes objected, and explained the reasons which induced the €oiiimilt« e lo adopt llie expression, /jnd the motion was withdrawn. Col. Moody, of Saco, thought the |.ro\i'ion of the Constitu- tion of Massachusetts, was heiU'V than that of this nrtscle. The word " inhabitant" was well known — its meaiii; g was well un- derstood, and no one could mistake it ; he would therefore fjro- po.->p to substitute it, for the words, ** hi-i residence established." Mr. Preble thought, if, inste^id of '* residence established," we insert '* where he dwelleth and h^th hi< house," it would obviate the difficulty. Tliis phrase has t">een familiar to us a great number of years. It is definite and precise, and has for 96 a long lime had a construction which is well known to all. The word *' established," was more liahle to quibbling and uncer- tainty as to its meaning, and we .should have to resort to other langttage for its meaning. Much dilTiculty arises in tiiiies of pa'ly spirit, afiout voters. The qualification of property is sub- ject to abuse from the views of the presiding officers at elec- tions. But put the language proposed, and the same difficulty will not arise. Mr. Hohnes. Tlie very substilute, which the gentleman pro- poses, Was avoided l)y the Committee, on purpose to prevent equivocation. The word " home," is more mdeiinite than the one used, Mr. Adams thought the language could not be more definite, and hoped the motion would not prevail. Mr. Martin, of Camden, also opposed the moti )n ; and it was negatived. Judge Thacher thought the word ** paupers" in this section, Bot sufficiently definite, and doubted whether the distinction were important, since persons without properly, are admitted to the elective franchise. Mr. Thocnas, of VVells, moved lo add, after the word " pau- pers," '' sujiported by any town ;" which amendment was not accejjted. Mr. Whitman said, there was cerlairdy a vagueness rn the term ** paupers," and moved to add '• during the lime they are stJpported in part, or in the whole, at the public expense." This would limit the meaning of the phrase, so that it would not be jierverted to improper purposes. Mr. Virgin, of Rurafurd, was opposed to the motion, if it went to exclude ihe very worthy class of citizens, who recei\e a pension for revolutionary services. Mr. Whitman said, it would not apply to pensioners of the United States ; but to quiet the appichensions of gentlemf n, he would add ** by the authority of this State ; lo which Mi. Hohnes assented. Col. Moody thought *' paupers" d( finite eriough ; — and the motion was lost. Mr. Herrick (ofB.) moved to add to the end of the seclionj (as it stood) '* nor shall the residence ot a sludent in any semma- ry of learning entitle him to the right of suffrage in the town or plantation where such seminary is estabiir,hfcd" — which was a- dopted, and the flection passed as amended. CoJ. Moody moved lo amend the 2d section, by striking out 97 the words after '' election.*' The object of the section is u. privilege electors from arrest, and he really thought, if a man W£s obliged to keep from the hands ot the sheiitf (or a time, that he ought to have the indulgence of breathing the air freely on election days. Judge Cony, hoped the motion would prevail He wished that the day of our elections might be a day, in which all our citizens may enjoy iheir rights, to their full extent. * Judge Thdcher observed, he thought it probable, that the honorable n)over, as well as some others who appeared to t'a- for the amendment, hul overlooked an imporlani idea involved ill this section, which he would barely suggest to the consider- a-tion of the Convention : it is this, that whatever exemption or right i< vested in the elector, is taken from the rights of some other men. U we give the dtbtor the privilege of going to elections, we take from his creditors the right they have by law, to arrest hijn as a means, and perhaps the only means, of obtaining his just demand . He said he saw no necessity or ex- pediency in interfering, by a constitutional provision, in the du- * ties and rights of debtors and creditors at all. He considered it a matter of legislative, not of constitutional consideration. He could wish the whole section were omitted, but be was deci- dedly ag.'^inst the ainentiroent. It the rfght ot voting only was intended to be secured to debtors, this will be sufficiently done, by protecting them while going to the place of eieciion, during the lime of voting, hearing the canvas proclaimed by the se- lectmen, and then returning home. He could invent no reason or excuse for their being protected longer than that. The whole subject IS properly a legislative business. The Ltgisiature ought to have the power, from time to time, to regulate ihe whole process between creditor and debtor as circumstances may require. He thought it highly proper it should be left to their consideration. Mr. Holmes. 1 hope the amendment will not prevail. If we allow the day of election to be a day of jubilee, the debtor may attend to his ordinary concerns, instead of attending elec- tions. The motion did not prevail, and the 2d and 3d sections pass- ed as reported. Mr. Dickinson made an unsuccessful motion to amend the lat- ter section, by inserting '' except when called into actual sec- vice." 9 M Sec, 4. Mr. Holmes, moved to strike out " Monday," and insert '* Wednesday," as the day of election, as the arrange- ments for that purpose are frequently attended to on the Sab- bath. Col. Moody hoped there was virtue enough in the people of the new State, not to violate the Sabbalh for electioneering pur- poses. There are strong objections to the alteration. There are many mechanics, who are in the hal it' of g( ing home from their labor, a cons^iderable distance, on Saturday, and returning on Monday morninsj ; and il would be much more convenient for them, to attend the elections on that day, and not to be obli- ged to go home on purpose. Mr. Baldwin s?id, the farmers would be equally incommo- ded by the alleralion. They frequently want to leave home in the beginnifjg of the week, to go to maiket, or for other purpos- es, and be absent for the week, and this would interfere with iheir business. Mr. Parsons,ofEdgecomb, said the fishermen were equally in- terested in preferiing Monday, as they generally go out the first of the week, and return home at the end of it. Mr Holmes said, as three classes of people had already been mentioned, as e-uffering iRconvenience from the proposed change, he would withdraw his motion. Mr. Cutler, of Farn ington, moved to strike out '* Septem- ber," and insert " October." Gen. Chandler hoped the motion would not prevail. By the Constitution, as reported, the towns are to be classed for the purpose of choosing representatives, and they would therefoie need more time, in case an election is not made the first time, toconplete the election. Dr. Phelps was in favor of October, and wis-hed to have the third, instead of the second Monday, Mr. Vance preferred September, lor the ressons given by Gen. Chandler. Mr. Holmes said, it was the object of the committee, to fix on a day between the former and iuller harvest, as the least bu- sy season, and they considered the second Monday of Septem- ber, ss comiing neai'est that purpo.^-e. The motion was lost. Dr. Phelps moved to strike out " second," ar:d insert '' third Monday." ■ Col. Moody, thought it best as it stood ; the third Monday 99 eoming so near the equinox, the weather would not probably be so favorable. This motion was also lost, and the fourth sec- tion passed without amendment. ARTICLE in. DISTRIBUTION OF POWERS, This article passed without debate. ARTICLE IV — Pirt First, LEGISLATIVE POPVER-^House of Representatives, Sec. l^t, passed without discussion. Sec. 2 J, in the original report, contained only the first sen- tence. Judge Bridge. Mr President — I rise at this time, merely i© make a re'Tiark or two on the '' amendment,'*— the remainder of the section. At the time it was made, I had strong objections to it, which have since been removed. I did believe, that by the amendment, a certain number of inhabitants in our county, would elect a representative, whiuh would not have the same power in another county. But as the number is fixed in each county, this cannot now take place, if the number is kept be- low one hundred and fifty ; as 1 find the apportionment on the counties will be equal, or will operate equally. Gen. Chandler. Mr. President — Although the objections of the gentleman are removed, my objections are not removed. My objections are to the apportionment of the Representatives on the counties, and then on the towns within the county. I will not deny, that at the time of the apportionment, it will be equal ; but if apportioned to the counties and towns only once in ten years, (which may be the case,) it will be in the result unequal. For instance, an apportionment is made to day for ten years ; in the cvMirse of this tisne, the increase of popula- tion, in the counly of York, is little or nothing ; it is nearly stationary. Whereas, in the county of Somerset, and other new counties, the increase is so rapid, that their population i5 almost doubled in ten years. Still these counties and the towns therein, can only be represented, until the end of ten years, according to their population ten years before, and i* will there- fore operate unequally. Besides, if this system of apportion- ing the representation on the counlies be adopteembers, and class such towns and planlalions as have not fit (ten hundied inhabitants, until thus clashed, the class shall contain lliat number at least, rind as nearly so as »nay be, without dividing towns or planta- tions, and without first ap[)orlioning the' representatives to the counties ; and let it go tlirougb the Slate in this mannei. In- deed, (here will odew be large fractions, after skiving a town one representative, before they vvdl be entitled to a second. This lias heretofore btcn the case, under the old sysiem, and no body was injured by it. It is very evident that there is a strong desire in this Con- vention, and wiih ihe pe()()le of Maine, to respect corporate rights, or in other word^, fo adhere It. town re[)re>'entalion ; and I confess 1 am among Iho/e who think favorably of thf princi pie. And throwing away the tractions, which there may be over and above the number requned to send one member, before they can send a second, is (Hie mean? of reducing the representation. And if it is said that large towns will lose large fractions — so will small towns lose large fractions, before they 5:an be entitled to a representative, but by classing wiih other towns. And the large towns may much sooner outgrow the in- convenience than a sn^allcr one. And as I belie\e a moie lib- eral representation is also desired by a portion of this Conven- tion, with a view of getting rid of apportioning the representa- liveson counties, as well as to limit the number at thiee hun- dred, instead of two hundred, I will move to strike out ail the second section, after the fifth line, {"' the amendment.") Judge Cony ro'^e to sugges' that, as this was the most i-npor- fant article in ihe Constitution, whether it would not be better to dispense with the rules of the Convention, that the menibers might take up the whole subject at once, and discuss the sec- ond and third sections together. Mr. Holmes \*islied for a division upon the second section, without the amendnient, in order to sin})lify the subject, and observed that the whole subject might be freely discussed. Judge Thacher addressed ihe chair and said, he would move to strike out the words " not less than one hundred nor vwre than two hundred,''^ not so much because he had made up his mind t*> oppose these numbers, as the tvTO extremes or limits to the Representative body, but to give the members of the Conven- tion an opportunity to expfess their minds in a cool and delib- erate discussion on the nature and fiiness of the mimher of mem- bers which will be proper for the House to be composed oH He said he knew of only one general position in which all the members of the Convention and all the people of Ihe territory- represented by thecn 'Agreed in without a dissenting voice — and that was, that the Hou?e of Representatives of the Common- wealth is much too numerous, and that the House of Represen- tatives in the new State ought to be so organized as in no cir- cumstances to bring in any thing like such a number. He said he had attended, for some time, to the opinions of those he had conversed with, and enquired of others, in 3)1 parts of the terri- tory, and was able to say the general voice was that the House ought not to exceed one hundred, and none went over one hun- dred and twenty or tbirty, — if a mode of increase should be admitted. He further stated, it seemed the deliberate opinion of well informed men •f the other pa't of the government, with whom he had lately conversed, and many who did not belong to the State, that one hundred Representatives would always be abundantly adequate to all the purposes of legislation — While many thought a less number would be better." For his part he was willing to acknowledge that he was not capable of laying down any precise rule by which the Convention could arrive at a given number, and then siy, that number was the only number best calculated for ihe ol)ject of legislation. Va- rious numbers had been mentioned from fifty, to one hundred and fifty.; very few indeed had even supposed the Convention ought to think of a larger number tlian the last. But no one was ready to say, the particular number he mentioned was in itself better than a number a little hisjheror lower. They had very generally fixed on one hundred ; hut no one could say that num- ber would be more suitable for legislation than ninety five and one hundred and five. This is a subject that does not admit of numerical precision. We can safely declare the number ten, twenty, or thirty to be too small— and four, five or six hundred too large, and thus avoid injurious extremes— while there may be many iHter;nediate numbers that have no peculiar advantage over their neighbours For his part he thought, however, the danger was, that the Convention will ultimately fix on too large^ father than too small a number. But he continued, avoiding the great extreme that the States, in general, throughout the Union, have been into of having too numerous Houses — there were some advantages to be derived to the public by what w\\\ {hen be called a numerous House^ though they tall considerably short of the Commonwealth, and of many other Legislatmes. If every town in the district were to send one Representative By a constant increase of towns the House might be thought too numerous ; yet many advantages result from the evil — every member gains much useful informa- tiun and carries it to his town. The Legislature is an impor- tant school, and the members from distant country towns that have but little connection with the great political world return home as teachers and school-masters ; and though these advan- tages cannot be estimated by dollars and cents, yet general ob- servation will satisfy every discerning niind ihey are an equiv- alent to the expense. Much has been said in favour of a nu- merous representation because it carries the feelings, passions and individual interests of the people into the legislative body. For his part, the Judge said, he never could estimate these sources ol such information very favourable to legislation. A legislative body does not want either the feelings, interests, passions or humours of individuals. It wants the calm judg- ment, sagacious foresight, a knowledge of facts with a ready power of combination — a' very little feeling and much common sense will make a good representative. Not bein^ able to fix on a certain number as above all others, and exclusively, the best, some number between the extremes must be adopted, and the Judge said, he was inclined to take some nuQiber as near to the lowest extreme as could be agreed upon, he thought there was less danger of erring at that than the other extreme. It had been before observed that twenty or thirty would be too small, and four, five or six hundred too large. The report of the coRimittee have fixed on a medium, of not less than on« hundred nor more than two hundred — And these are to be elected by towns and districts. He said he had always been in favour of town representation, if it could be so apportioned as not to be too numerous ; and he certainly was not for going so far as many rr»ighl wi^h who live in large towns. Those gentlemen who are in favour of the smallest nuniber are for a distinct representation. This, he thought, would be at- tended with sosie inconveniences. — Suppose one hundred rep- 105 resentalives should be the number — then admitting the State contains three hundred thousand inhabitants, every three thou- sand will send one, and the State will be laid out into one hun- dred districts. This will require some towns to be divided and others to be combined together to make up the number of votes. Perhaps it may be declared that the State shall be laid off into districts corresponding to the county lines ; or some other divi- sion, so as to make twenty, or twenty five districts, each con- taining an equal number of inhabitants in an equal numlier of towns, and tiien the whole number of representatives equally apportioned on the districts. This will certainly be equal rep- resentation and an equal mode of election. But it will be new to the people and attended with some serious difficulties. Suppose a district to contain ten or more towns, and the meelings for e- lection are held in towns, as they now are, how shall it be as- certained whether a choice is made ? Shall there be a canvas in each district and if no choice is made, another meeting call- ed ? and so till the nutnber allowed the distncl be elected ? of shall the votes be returned to the House of Representatives and there counted ? and if no choice, another precept to the dis- trict ? or shrill the House fill the vacancies as is done in the Sen- ale of the Commonwealth ? if this lasL mode be adopted, then the representative is not chosen by the people. This will in- troduce a new principle into our system of representation. If a new precept is sent out to the district, this will produce dan- gerous delays, ^c. But it is said, by some, that if counties or other large districts v'ire adopted, it may be provided by law for all the voters to at- tend at one time and place in the district and give in their voles, as we now do in the several towns — which will remedy the evil ; for if no choice is made by the first balloting, it may be repeated till one is effected. This mode however will be attend- ed with many evils, as all who are acquainted with the elec- tions in England and in tho^e States, where a similar mode is adopted, very well know, and do not need now to be detailed. It is to be considered too that if we take the districting sys- tem we must take it with all iU consequences ; and one is as the districts will settle unequally, the representation will poon become unequal unless there be new districts, and this will be- come necessary very often ; as some districts will increase much more rapidly than others. He was in favour of the report of the committee as it made it necessary fur a town to have fif- 104 teen hundred inhabitants to entitle it to one repr<^sentative ; and* he should not have objected, if the number had been higher. lie likewise was well pleased, that the number o^ inhabitants had been selected rather than the number of qualified voters as the ground and criterion of the right of a town to be represented. The old mode was subject to unfairness and sometimes to polit- ical frauds — to speak the most favourably of some transactions. He thought the ratio fixed upon to determine when a town shall send more than one, or two representatives &c. to be as just as could be dev/sed and yet preserve any thing like a town representation. And though the representation, as contained in the 2d and 3d sections, will not be so perfectly equal as that by general districting would be, he was of opinion it had better be adopted. The large towns complain that they have not their proportion of representatives, which is true in theory, but 'tis well known that large and rich towns have many means by which they extend their influence beyond the simple mode of representation. And according to the system reported, the rep- resentation is perfectly equal as it is apportioned equally to the number of inhabitants in the several counties and the mode of choosing by towns is a little unequal ; but it must be acknowl- edged that for all purposes of legislation two men can represent four thousand inhabitants as efif«ctually as fifteen huNdred are represented by one. It is not ihe number of representatives merely that constitutes the perjection of representation to a town or any given number of people. 'Tis th<^ knowledge and capaci- ty for legislation united to hijlex'ble integrity — these and these only are the proper qualities to form a good representative. The representation by districts is a new thing in practice, and so is the idea of a limited number of renresentatives in a representation of laws where th^se corporations are constantly increasing in numliier, as well as the inhabitants in each and ev» ery towri. It must be perceived that no ratio can be fixed up- on but what will in process of time exceed any fixed number of representatives that does not exceed the number of two hun- dred — the larges* number proposed in the report of the com- mittee. This IS enough to satisfy every candid mind that the old system of town representation must be m a great measure abandoned, or the idea of fixing ihe number of representatives must be }j;iven up Town representation is in« Oi^istent with a fixe'd number of representaiive' — nor can it be maiie so equal as thai by districts, but by allowing i^stry town however small 103 to send one — and making the number of inhabitants that enti lies a town to send one representative, be the ratio by which the representatives in the large towns shall increase. The con?equence of ttjis would be, the representative body would soon ainouiit to a thousand or more. The two systems, he ob- served, were both aUended with difficulties, if pursued alone, and as they have bee?» separately practised upori in different governments. He thought it very questionable whether the CoiivenJion cuuid do better than to take the general system as contained in the report ; it seemed to him to be a complex sys- tem, and unjfed the orip^iual representation by towns, as far as that could b<> pursued wiihout increasing the representation too much, and so i^mch olthe new disticling system as admitted the num-ier'ot representatives to be fixed, and yet sufficiently provided a repn senlation for all the small towns ani plantations wi h a ^ little inconvenience as the nature of the sutjtcl would adm.t of. Mr. Lovv.of Lyman, said he was very sorry he had the misfor- tune to differ from his WJit by friend from Iii'idfford. But he thought the system reporte-' was the best that could be devised. If the system of districting was adopted, he was confident the constimtion would be received by thf peojle ; but was of opin- ion that the mode reported would givt? umMrsal satisfaction. Mr. Piolrnes. Mr. President — 1 regret diat the H-jn. gentle- man from Biddetord had not moved to insert, as well as strike out — Ii seems inconsistent to attempt to Uiake a blank, which a m;ijorily of this Conventiori would never agiee to fill. A mo- tion to strike out and insert, I consider ind \i ibie — And had the Hon. niefDber provided in this wa^ , ever) number that any gentleman might have pielerred, might have been attempttd, and if no one had succeeded th«' number reported would siand. ProvijJing in this uay every gentleman might have offered bis scheme, as a substitute fur the one reported, and could a better oiie be offered, I would as one, most chetrfuliy adopt it. It is my duty to state the difficulties which the committee experien- ced in framing this part of the report. The committee tound, and I trust that this Convention will find, that it is not easy to fiv on a principle which will give general satiGtaction A representation by towns had become familiar from long ex- perience, and to abandon it would have been to encounter hab- its and prejudices strong and obstinate. But we i^eerned it our duty to limit the number. This, as we believe, the people 106 expect. 1 know they have been promised a cheap governnrientj that one third of the usual number might perform the duties of legislation, with much more dispatch and much less expense ; and that with this small number, distributed upon the princi- ples of equality, the rights and liberties of the people would be perfectly safe. These principles are diometrically opposed — It is impossible to preserve corporate representation to its extent ; restrict the number within any reasonable limits, and at the same time pre* serve to the people an equal representation — How is it to be done ? How are these three favourite plans, at cross purposes with each other, to be accomplished to the satisfaction of the people of Maine ? Are gentlemen prepared to give up the limitation ? Will any member hazara his reputation by pro- viding that each town may elect a rejiresentative, that the plai3- tations shall be represented in some way, and llie large towns have their representatives increased in pr()porti(»n to their num- bers ? A representation, thus })redicated, would give to yoifr first House, more than three hundred members, and this number would he constantly increasing un'il the House would bear more the character of a mob, than a legislative assembly. Will you provide lor such a House, pay ihern from the public treasury, and thus treble your Stale Tax ? Gentlemen say, that people value their rights more than their money — it is an honorable thought. But if their rights and privileges can be preserved consistently with economy, they vu!l hoid us answerable for every needless expense — And after all, to what does this cor* porale right ajnouut ? Is there not somelhing of prejudice in it ? And hhall a small town having five iiundn d inhabitants, claim a representative, when in a large one, it requires two thousand to derive the same privdege ? This, instead of a corporate ri^ht^ becomes a corporate wrong. This mode would do great inju-^tice to the large towns. You take from them an equal representation and compel them to pav according to their prop- erty —Is it right thai Portland, should pay a larger lax than the county of Was! inglon, and should elect oidy one third as many memt)ers, and that the county of Washington should have the benefit of their diminution ? The course adopted \y the com- mittee is a comprtmiise of these opposite principles — As far as possible, we have limited the number, preserved an equality in the different sections of the Stale, and secured to the towns their accustomed privileges. 107 We apportioned the number of representatives among the several counties according to iheir number of inhabitants. The people of a county have a community of interest and coinci- dence of feeling, arising from an acquaintance in transacting their county concerns. If (here is any thing like sectional di- visions, it exists in the counties. The ordinary towns will he entitled to a representative, the small towns and piantatit ns will be classed as conveniently as possible, and of the larger towns a larger number is required for the second representative, and a still larger for the ^hird, and so on progressively, fixing the ut- most limit for any town at seven. By this process, you pre- serve the equality in the counties, and the corporate rights as much as possible, and although you diminish the influence of the large corporations, you throw this influence into the small ones in the same vicinity. If you retain the limitation contained in the report, it will result that the members will be paid from the general fund — this oui^hi to be the case, and I am ready to pledge myself that if the object is not already secured, I will move an amendment which will embrace it. I trust the motion to strike out, will not prevail. Mr. Hudsdon, of Levant, Sbid it was important to take into consideration the effects of the proposed apporfiunment upon our posterity, as well as u\)on ihe present population ; and went into some calculations to show the inconveniences of its opera- tion, and the propriety of adopting Ihe motion to strike out. From these calculations it appeared that if our population should double every twenty-five years, according to the ratio now fix- ed, there would be but one refire-entntive for 192,800 persons, after the lapse of one hundred and fifty years. On tbe question being put, 99 rose in favor, and 149 against it — -o the motion was losi. Tb^ vole was then taken, on adopting the whole of the 2d Section, and it passed, by 137 to 95. Mr. Herrick, of B. moved for a reconsideration of this vote. 1 contc'sSjSaid he, my opinion on the subject of representation has somewhat altered, I was as much in favor of reducing the refjre- ^ntation as any one. I did think our expenses would be very much diminished. But I do not think, that to obtain this ob- ject our privileges should be rendered insecure. The only ob- jection to a large number of representatives, i- the expense to which it would subject us The business would be done with i08 as much despatch, as by a small number. If It is not very exces- sive, it is niuch better that the towns should be represented, Mr. Neal, ot E. said he was well aware we ought to reduce our representation. In the county ot York, he said, we have had the right to send two from every town, and 1 think we may reduce tlie number of representatives more than two fifths, a^ supposed by the Hon. gentleman from Biddeford. He then of- fored a substitute for the 2d and 3d sections, the principle of which was, that towns with 1500 inhabitants should elect one Representative and 3000 to elect two — with 6000 to elect three, and proceeding wiih this increasing ra/io, smaller towns to be classed or to elect a portion of the time as ihey may agree. JIFTERJVOOJV. — A question of order arose, whether on the motion to recon^iJer the vote accepting the 3d section, the whole subject of representation w^as open for debate ; the Pres- ident decided it was fuily open. Col. Moody. Mr. President — 1 regret that the vote passed in the forenoon, without more discussion ; but I am now oppos- ed to reconsidering It. I think, sir, no gentleman ought to move for a reconsideration, without offermg a substitute and giving his reasons for its adoption. It is proper for a member to make this motion, for the purpose of proposing an amend- ment which should fully express bis object ; bui nut without distincUy stating his views in case the vote to reconsider should obtain. Judge Green. I was an attentive observer of w hat passed m the forenoon, and I think every thing was conducted in order ; and so far as 1 observed, the whole subject was fully discussed. As the whole subject may be freely discussed on this motion, the vote ought not to pass, unless for the purpose of adopting an amendment, that ever} gentleman of this Convention should have opportunity to express his opinion upon the subject. Mr. Herrick. Mr. President — The remarks which I made in support of the motion to reconsider were quite undigested, and were uffered on the spur of the occasion. Bui, sir, as geu- -tlemen are t be greatly reduced. Mr A. said, he well knew tbt pehed theT Government established and adminis- tered upon sound prmciples vi tconomy, and, be had no doubt, these principlt^s would I-e duly regat ded by ihe Cn. But almost all persons are dissatisfied with the result of the present method, however Ihey might regard the mode itself. We hear a universal complaint of the number of our Represen- tatives. It Is not only expensive, but is too large to transact business with facility, and unequal in its operation. If we take H 122 experience for our tjiiicle, we ^liall not fear to tnnt a sin-ill num- ber of Repre^^eniaiivts. Let us look atNevv-Y«''k and Pennsyl- vania ; if ihey have imj roved on os, ?hall we not learn irom them ? I see no d^^nger in a small reprfsenlation. I (eel n uch attached to the f)rin(ip'es of ihe t«deral constiution, hy which the representation i^ t« unded on a basis ol equal rights and is not excessive In 'he national Ltgislalnie there is hut one Representative for thirty six thousand people. Yet we hea» no couipjain? of a want of bein^ represented. The lusiness is well attended to, and even the private concerns of individuals do not sifTer for the want of a njore numerous representation ; at least no conipl^ints of this kind have e»er reached my ears. By the plan which I havr suhmiltrd, we shall havf one Rep- resentative for three thousand, and this will t)e enough for trans- acting the public business, and private and local concerns, vvth- out danger or inconvenience. 'J here has no pioiuisiiion been made which does not result in a paitial classing of towns, and why shall w'e not carry il further ? This is the only effect of my proposal. After having expressed my views on ihis subject, Sir, I shall cordially submit to its rejection, if it is not satisfactory U) the Convention. I hoj)e it will not be left for the Legislature to re- duce the number of Represenlativts. It is our duty to reduce the representation, and I hope whatever system shall be adopt- ed it will at least effect this object. Mr. Neale, ofE. con^^idered it an established principle that the lepresentation should be reduced in the new State, from that ©f Massachusetts. The number of 1500 agreed on by the com- mittee would reduce in one half; and he though I it preferable to the proposi(ion now offered. He was 0|)poseil to fixiUii the number, but only wished the ratio of representation establi>hed ; and was for leaving the rest to be settled by the Legislature, or the people Mr. Whitman, of Portland, said, tliat from the number of schemes this day suggested, it would t,»e apparent no two mem- bers were agreed on this subject ; and he trusted the Conven- tion were, by this time, sensible ol the dinicullies the conjmiltee had encountered in coming to an agreement. The scheme by ^bem presented was a compromise a! aljout a medium between ihe extremes of opinions. The committee had nearly, if not quite, as many views presented as are now l)e(ore the Conven- tion. The scheme of the committee (said Mr. W.) is not my 123 scheme. Mine was totally different. Before I sit down I wUl take l^ave to explain it to the Convention — not in the hope or expectation that it will he adopted ; for as I could not convince the c^Mtiinittee, of which I had the honor to be a metiiber, I can- not suppo-p I shall he more ibrtunafe here. We are. Sir, about to establish a form of government — not for one section or another of the State — not for the present genera- tion only — but for the whole cotnmunily and for posterity. The construction of the Legislative body is the mo^t important, and at the same time, the n/ost difficult part of it We want a House of Representativ«=^s that shall not be too large to transact the pub- lic business in a reasonable time ; and which shall be large enoujj^h to embrace the talents and integrity of the State. Gen- lletnen seem to me to have erroneous ideas of the objects of a Legislative body. These have originated, no doubt, in some degree frotn the construction of the Legislature of Massachusetts -—a Legislature the wurst constructed in the Lfnion — It is a per- fect anomaly — there is nothing like it in any other State. tts Huuse of Repieseiitatives has at times consisted of nearly seven hufjdred — sixty ot which inaile a quorum. Gentlemen say this body has been innocent ; and no great inconvenience has been experienced iVom it ; (hat le^^islative business has been transact- ed wi h facility. Sir, it may be so — but how has it happened ? I can tell genlietnen how it has happened. These seven hun- dred members have not assembled for the |)urpose ol legisla- tion — Thpy have assembled to try the strength of political par- ties — and for this purpose only. This done, and they have dis- persed. Tliis huge body lias vanished, and left, perhaps, a quorum behind. In a very few days after this assemblage had met and organized the government, we have found the Speaker scarcely able to muster a quorutn ot sixty. If more remained it has not been for the purpose of general legislation — !)ut to ac- complish some paltry local object. The members entrusted with petitions, or the accomplishment of some trifling object, have re- mained after the multitude had di -persed. Those who have remained have !)een the real legislators ; and have transacted the public business. Till thus reduced the public business could not be transacted. We are never to have a Representative body. I trust, like that of Massachusetts — a body perfectly chaiigeable — composed of one set of men to-day and another to morrow — and that in the same session. A proposilioa made on one day before one set of 124 men. would, on another, come up before an entire different set ; atjd finally be considered by, perhaps, a third. The members b' in<; paid by ibeir respective town8,and being but scantily paid, consult ihtir own convenience — attend when they can as well as not ; and no longer than their towns are willing to pay them. Htnce die towns anmc. It is iniquitous in principle. ^^ 127 never can be reconciled to the good sense of the people. Whek we say to a town, having 1500 inhabitants, you shall have one representative; ami, to a town adjoiniiig it, containing 3999 inhat'itants, you shall have but one, what will the people say? Can they understand such a principle as this ? ^ir, it is arbi- trary and oppressive. Because of an adventitious cucurnstance, because a town line happens to be a little more extended, so as to have a greater number of inhabitants within it you will de- prive its inhabitants of an equal representation. We may just as well form large districts — three times as large as would give a single representative; and say to it, be'rause we have made you a large district, you shall be deprived of an equal represen- tation — you shall have but one representative, if it be an object to have but one representative elected by any one body of men, divide your large towns by parochial lines or other- wise. But do not deprive them of their equal rights. We, Sir, profess to be republicans — and begin our constitu- tion by declaring al! men to be born equally free, and to have equal unalienable rights and privileges. And in our appor- tionment of representatives are furnishing a practical commen- tary upon this text. By way of illustration of what we mean by equal rights we say to the inhabitants of a large town you have but one third as much right as the inhabitants of a ?»mall town. Three men in a large town are but equal to one in £ small one. I beg gentlemen to consider what they are about ; and how they establish principles. An erroneous principle will be a two edged sword — it will cut both ways — at present it will injure only the towns that are now large — But it should be re- membered that the towns which are now small, are becoming large. They will feel, in their turn, the iniquitous operation of this principle. A time serving policy is not that which should govern the framers of a constitution. Let us look with a single eye to principle — to correct princir)le — and we shall be in no danger. If we pursue a straight forward course — if we at this time look for nothino; but what is f>iiv and honest, we shall be in no danger, now or hereafter. Oij the other hand no man can fee the mischievous efrHCts consequent upon crooked policy^ If we were now to limit the number of represeniatives to one hundred, and apportion them equally in the State; securing '.» every individual his equal influence, the people would un- -^^^rstand it ; and fee satisfied. The whole State would then he 1]2» districted — All ivould be served alike and we should hear no complaint. The tuoiigrel system of partly districting an«[ partly not, would excite no jealour»ies and heart burnings in ihe small towns ; and the large towns would enjoy their equal rights. Sir, («aid Mr. W.) I have, I fear, trespassed too much upon the time of this Convention. My acknowledgments are due for their patient altenlion. 1 will not now lake up more of their time. Mr. Holmes said there was a difference of opinion among the members of the Convention, as to the limitation of the num- ber of representatives. On the one hand it is said some are for restricting the number, and on the other, some are for leaving it unlimited. [ will offer a scheme which will leave it to the people themselves to determine the question. This amend- ment will be found aKerwards. Mr. Hobbs had seen no scheme which suited him so well as the report. A part, he thought, might be amended so as to provide that the representation should. increase with the popu- lation. Mr. Baldwin, of Blercer. Mr. President — This busiriess of representation seems to involve a great many difficulties. Some gentlemen argue that no mode can be equal and just but that of districting, so that every portion of territory shall have a number of representatives according to their population ; others argue that corporate representation Is the only system that can give satisfaction to the people at large. How far these different sys- terns are correct, must be left for every man to determine for himself, according to the best light he can obtain on the subject. That a districting system is not equal has generally been grant- ed, by those who have been the framers of former constitution^ in the New-England States. > It is strenuously argued by gen- tlemen who live in-the large tow~ns, that tliers is no reason why they should not have a«um4ier of repieseUiatives in exact pro- portion to tiieir population ; but it appears to me this reasoning ja not conclusive ; for in the first place,, the new towns and plan tations are not furnished with men ol equal acquirements with the old towns. Gentlemen who have spent the greater part of their lives in study, and especially the study of elocution, angtithpr fur I fie purpose of sein^ir^oja Representative, these tuwny are six miles square, maki >2: 21d square miles, these towns sen«l one man, Uje hest they can fi jJ am^njr thern, an honest old (armer, a steady pluughjot^jger ; he attends, sits si- Jent all the session and ail the year if he goes, uide^s he is re- quested to give his yea or nay. The town of Boston ^hall send three and they wi/l take care that they are mefi of itjfonnation, and the fiest mfoimation, men who have spent their whole lives in study, men who are profound politicians, the most ahle statesmen, and eloquent orators. The question is who will be the best represented, the two square miles in Boston, or 216 miles in the woods according to their wealth and population ? I can see no possible rea^^on vvhy an equal ntjmber of represen- latives should bt given to an equil populaiion, unless it be to serve party or local interests The old, the rich, the populous towns wdl after all, on the principles that 1 have laid dowL have the balance of influence in their favor. Let the whole be fairly represented ; let rpp'esentation descend to the lowest ana most obscure classes of our citizens ; they wish to be represented, and it is an indefeasible right of which none ever ought to be deprived. It see(n« to be the general voice *' less«-n the repre- sentation ;" this 1 believe may be done on principles oi equity, «o that the present mode of representation may be reduced a- bout three fifths, and in ^^uch a manner as not to be too small, nor so large as to be a public burthen, but all fairly represented, all paid out of the public treasury, then all have an equal voice in making laws, all are equally under its control, and all equal- ly share in its protection. Take the report of your committee, diseBgaged from the era- barrassment of county lines, and the restriction of limited num- bers ; our constituents witl be pleased — our Constitution ac- cepted, and prove a rich and lasting blessing to the inhabitants of Maine. JlFTERJVOOJV'-'Br. Rose. Mr. President— A^i all are of. fering their projects, I will also offer one. .The system of dis- tricts might save some part of the expense of legi^latirjg, but would it save expense to the people ? I think not, since the ex- pense of elections would be greatly increased. He then offer- ed a projf-ct, that the Representatives might be cho«en as here- tofore, until 1824, when it should be le(t to the people to re« 131 duce the num>^er, to from 200 to 100, to be apportioned oil the couniiv^s according^ to popuLition Gen. Chandlei's motion to commit ihe »\hole subject to a se- lect commiitee, to digf^st the various pr posit irn- which had been made, and report a new Schemes, being stiil befure the Convention — Judge Bridge said, he had made a motii^n in the mornmg, which was not then in order • but the n'oiion then under con- siderntion having been withdrawn, lie would now, it in order, renew his motion to strike out *' two hundred." and insert ** three hundred," as ihf highest limit of the nuniber of Repre- seniruives. Gen. Chandler was willing to give way, so far as to give that motion thp preference Mr. U^hf-r wished the moti >r» to strike out, to be taken first. Mr. Hohrits and Judge Pariis, differed as to the question, whether the motion were divisible. Judge Bridge declined dividing his motion, and preferred withdrawing it. Judge Cony beirged leave to sngjjest, whether it WduW rrol be proper to begin with the scnaliest number first. The question be?ng taken on ?.di>p iog the motion of Judge Bridge, it passed in the negative, bt rising in fasor, and lb© against it. Mr. Usher then renewed this motion nf yesterday, that the words in the second section, which limited the number o( Rep- resentatives, should be striken out. He wished to take the sense of the Convention, whether they would leave the num!>er un- limited, beginning at I5L0 inhabitants for one Representative, according to the report of the committee, and following their ratio. Col. Moody Wc-NS unwilling a Constitution should go out to the people with an unlimited representation. The question on Mr. U^he^'s motion was decided in the neg- ative, 106 being in favor, and 129 again*t it Judge Cony moved, that the section should be so amended, that the number of repiesenta'ives should be not less than one hundred, nor more tha** one hundred and filty. He believed the people expect a limilatinnof the representation, and that a Con-titulion provi(ii ig for it, would be accepted by them. Tliis n otion was lost. Mr. Whiunaa. I bad the honor of submitting a few remarks 132 in \he morning, and as s^entlemen have observed, that 1 did not offer a suJ>stitute, for thai p.rt of ihe report which 1 would re- ject, 1 will now do it. lo p.ursuanc^ oi the scheme which I sug- gested, I will offer an ameiulrripnt, which is to strike out that part of ihe second section, and irisert the following ; — " for the purpose of electing; Rf^pre«?en alives, each county shall l>e di- vided into Districts, consisting of one or more entire towns, comprising; contiguous territory, the exterior hmits of each of which, if consisting of more than one town, shall be as nearly equidistant from a common centre as may he, and not exceed- ing nor falling short n.ore th^in iei^ per centum of the precise number of inhabitants requisite to entitle such district t<> send ©ne representative. But whenever a district cannot be formed in manner aforesaid, consisting of more towns than one, com- prising the number of inhabitants to entitle it to elect one lep- resentative, a district may be formed in manner aforesaid, con- taining the requisite number, or within ten per centum more or less thereof, to enutle it to elect a greater number, being aa few as practicable, and in no case ♦xceeding five representa- tives. Provided horvever, that any single iown, containing within ien per centum more or less, than the requisite number of inhabitants, to entitle it to elect one or more representatives, shall be considered a district for the purpose of electing the cor- responding number of representatives. The number of inbab-» itants in any district entitled to a representative, shall be equiv- alent, as near as may be, to the product of the whole number of inhabitants in such county, divided by the number of rep- resentatives assigned to it " The question on adopting this amendment was decided in the negative, by 24 only voting in favor. Mr. Holmes, now brought forward his proposition, which he had offered in the morning — to strike out *' two hundred,*' and insert the following : '* and whenever the number of represen- tatives, shall amount to two hundred at the next annual meet- ing of electors, which shall thereafter happen at every subse- quent period of ten years — the jteople shall give in theii votes on the question, whether the number of representative^ shall be increased ; and if a majority of votes are in favor thereof, it shall be the duty of the next Legislature thereafter, to increase the number by the rule hereinafter prescribed.'* If the num- ber should be increased as (he population increases, the gentle- man will not be so much alarmed at the limitation. 133 Judge Thacher was pleased with that part of the proposition which letl it with the people to deci ie whether the liumber ot Representatives shall lie increased, but he also wished it should be left to them to diminish their number. He thought it ought to be a knife which would cut both ways. He therefore mov- ed to amend the amendment of Mr. Hclmes, by inserting the word " diminished." The motion passed in the affirmative, by 159 to 38. The quesiion was then taken on adopting Mr. Holines' amend- Kient, and it passed in the affirmative, 16 only rising against it. Mr. Miliikin, of Frankfort, moved to strike out all the Report relating to the apportionment among the counties. Gen, Chandler called for the decision upon his txiotion to commit thf» several proposals. Judge Parris said, he wished the question to be decided, whether the Convention will proceed to fix the ratio, or only to limit the numbers of the representatives, and leave the appor- tionment to the Legislature. Mr. Holmes hoped the section would not be committed, un- til the Convention had decided the principles ; and then that it be comuiilled to a revi.sing committee, to put the several amendments into form. It would be a great saving of time, to adopt this course. Judge Green thought the sense of the Convention had better be taken on adopting the section, which would save the neces- sity ot committing. ^^u Gen. Chandler considered it preferable to commit ; and said * the sense of the Convention, as to the section, might be as well „ taken on this quesiion as the oiher. Judge Thacher was opposed to a commitment. Mr. Holmes could see no reason for commiliing, unless for ^^ .the purpose of going over the same ground to-morrow, which we have gone over to-day. And, said he, I hope we shall not waste the lime of our constituents, by giving it up to a commit- tee, but that the sense of the Convention will be taken on the principle of (he report. Mr. Dearborn, of Hallowell, was opposed to the commitment, until the question was taken upon the principle of apportion- ment, or unless special directions should be given to the com- mittee. We have, said Mr. D. already had this subject before a large and highly respectable committee, and it was confident- ly hoped, that upon this interesting and all important questiori 134 of form/ng a House of Representatives, kheir labors would have produced some scheme or project, by which a fair and equal representation of the people would be returned to the house. But, Mr. President, have they done it ? I answer no. Of all instruments, whet up and sharpened for the purpose of carving and dissecting the State into unequal parts, this — the scheme of the Committee — is the most complete. Mr. D. wished the whole question, in relation to that body which is to hold the purse- strings of the State, to be brought fairly before ihe Convention, and not be committed until the project reported by the commit- tee was sifted to the bottom. Mr. D. here went into an examination of the report, stating its uuequal and oppiessive bearings upon certain towns and dis- tricts ; and stated that seventy Jive thousand inhabitants would be, by this bill, deprived of a representation in the house. The famous districting bill of the Massachusetts Legislature in 18] 1, that shook, and almost convulsed the whole Commonwealth to its centre, fell as far short of the present, in point of deformity, as this does short of the rotten borough system of Great Britain. Will the people of Maine support this ? Will not the free vo- ters murujur and complain? 1 will venture to say they will. And altl»o\jgh their murmurings may be slill and low at first, it would increase to the voice of thunder at the polls, when the Constitution is before them, and by its rejection make them- selves heard at the second session of this Convention. Judge Thacher observed, that as far as he understood the 'ventleman on the sul)ject, he strongly suspected the nature and operation of the supposed inequality of representation on ac- eountof the inactions was not clearly comprehended. The ground of the objection with the gentleman from Hallovvell, was, that the/ractiotis were not represented, and that this bor^ harder on the large, than on the small towns. Now be thought that if {he/act was looked into, and its natural progress accurately no- ted, it would turn out that the small towns not the large ones, would most probably be the greatest sufferers. Because it is Dotorious, the large commercial towns, and the demi commer- cial ones, OH great rivers, that is, towns partly trading, partly comm.ercial, and partlv agricultural, increase much more rap- idly than the inland towns (hat are altogether agricultuial. Compare Portland, with the inland agricultural towns in Cum- berland ,• or Bath and Hallowell, with the back country towns, ^nd see wfaich have increased most. Look to the old part of 135 the State. We there shall find aj];rirultural towns, that for half d century have added but a small number of inhabitants to its population duriijg that lapse of time, while Boston has doubled and trebled its numbers. Portland has probably more than doubled its inhabitants, while many of the inland towns, in the same period, have made only sn.dll additions to its inhabitants. And it is a geueral fact, that while agriculiural towns get nearly the complement of inhabitants they will aiaintain, they must remain for ages without rBuch increase, but seaports will be on a rapid increase. The certain consequence of this state of things then will be, that the mirepresenied fractions, in the large commercial towns, must be of that duration, because the periods from the time they have inhabitants enough to send one representative, to that ol enough to.«end two, three, 4'C. will be short, very short, compared with the corresponding periods in the small agricultural towns. Many of the agricultural towns now send one representative, and perhaps have a fraction of three or four hundred besides ; and their increase will be so slow, that probably half a century will elapse, before, if ever, they can be entitled to send two. This will never be the case of the large towns, as they are understood in the objection. Look through the United States, and it will be found llieir increase is constantly in an accelerated ratio to their size compared with smaller ones. Hence he concluded, that since the objection did not come from the agricultural towns, on whom its principle will bear the hardest, if there is anv thing in it, the large towns, such as Portland, Bath, Hallowell, and those Jik« thera, ought not, or rather cannot, make the objection. The motion to commit was lost, 191 to 36. The question on adopting Gen. VVingale's amendnnent was now taken, and decided agcTiust it. The vote was then j)Ut upon adopting the second section, and W. passed in the affirmative, 191 being in favor, and 36 agaiusi it. Adjourned. FRIDAY, OCT. 22. Sec. 3, Art. 4th, under consideration. Col. Atherton, of Prospect, submitted a motion to district the whole State, for the choice of Representatives. He was most decidedly opposed to the representation as appoi limned by the 3d section, as arbitrary and unequal. It sanctioned a principle which by no ra^ans can find a justification \n the bill of rignts already adopted. ]36 The section provide?, (hat *' each town having 1600 inhabi tants, shall be entitled to one Representative ; each town hav- ing 4000 inhabitants, shall be entitled to two ; and each town having 7500 inhabitants, to three Rrpiesentatives, and pro- ciedingin ihe same increasing ratio for every additional Rep- resentative." And, '* that the Representatives on Ihe first ap- portionment, shall not be less than 100, nor exceeding loO." Admitting then, (said he) Mr. President, ihat the present pop. Illation of the whole District is equal to SOU 000, and that the whole number 150, proposed by this part of the report should be elected, then divide the whole population by 1500, and we tliall come to this result, Ihat 75,000 of the inhabitants ar«^ de- prived of their suffrages ; or in other words have no voice what- ever in the election of their representatives. He appealed to the Honorable President and tlie Honorable Members of fhe Convention, and demanded to know, whether he, or they, or any gentleman on that floor, were prepared to relinquish their rights on this subject ; whether tliey were ready at this early stage of the new government, to abandon to others their elective franchise ? He trusted this was not the case with any gentle- man present, and that they would find their constituents equally tenacious with themselves of this inestimable privilege of free- men. The town he had the honor to represent, was not so ma- terially affected by this measure as many others, yet he did not consider that he was acting for that town only, but for the whule people. Gentlemen had said much about the views and expectations of .their constituents — that they would like this measure, or oppose that ; at the same time expressing their ap- prehensions as to their reception of the Constituti)H. For hi«n- self, he was not disposed to consult either the whims or the caprices of Hs constituents, if they had any, nor did they ex- pect it of him. He fell himself bound to exercise his soundest discretion and intelligence for iheir best interests. He had hotv- ever taken pains to ascertain their opinions on this sutjject, and he believed he could safely assert, that they were generally in favor of a reduced representation, thereby saving to themselves and the new State, a great and unnecessary expense. His con- stituents were in favor of a just and equal representation appor- tioned to numbers, and that they would be satisfied with no oth- er. He lamented to say, that he bad lived to witness 90,000 of the freemen of Massachusetts, (the militia) under color of the constitution, deprived by almost a single stroke of the peB, of 137 iheir " equal rights and privileges." And he warned the Con- vention to beware how they infringed the rights of the people, at the incipient stages of the new government. After explain- ing further his views on this interesting subject, and intimating that the only equitable mode which he could suggest, was that of districting and apportioning the representation according to the population of the several counties or districts, be submitted the following amendment ; , " Each town shall be entitled to one representative for every 3000 inhabitants, and towns not haviug 3000 inhabitants, shall be classed as conveniently as may be, into districts containing not less than that number, and each such district shall be enti- tled to one representative. The number of representatives shall be apportioned to the number of inhabitants of each county ; the counties shall be divided into districts of 3, 6, and 9000, and every such district shall be entitled to one representative for every 3000 inhat itants. Provided however, that a district containing more than one town, and entitled to more than one representative, shall not choose both of said representatives frooa one town." Judge Briilge. Mr. President — There have been two modes proposed, by which the representation, which it is so desirable to jeduce, should be kept down, and both have their advocates. One is, that of districting, by which the number may be fixed, and kept invariably the same. The other is, by adopting a ra- tio, which is included in the scheme proposed by the commit- tee. I believe. Sir, it u ill be most expedient to adopt (his plan, in preference to any which has been exhibited, and especiaDy that of di-tncts. 1 have not much confidence in political theo- ries, until I see their application to practice. This has been ^one in the plan agreed on, by which one hundred and forty- four members will he elected for the first Legi^^lature. And this has been done in the schenic proposed, by the ratio of fit^teeti hundred, which will give about one hundred and fifty represen- tatives lor the first Legislature elected under it. In the county of York, they have been distributed with as much equality as possible, and I presume there will not, in that county, a hand be raised against it. There the population is nearly full, and will not much increase. If any scljeme proposed produced much inconvenience to that county, ii would be objectionable, because not easily remedied It Is this which makes the evik of life intolerable — die impossibility ol removing ther^u 12* ■ 138 The Judge theu called the attention of the Convention to its operation on the county of York, which he eiplained, and then proceeded. Now, Sir, is not this as perfect a representation as it is possi- ble to devise ? This gives as nearly as can be, what the oth- er counties will eventually come to. Would you have left them as equal an arrangement by any other scheme ? I think, concluded the Judge, that the system of districting, arises from a disposition to theorise, and not from an attention to the actual condition and situation of things. I think there is no method so equal in operation, as that proposed in the report, and therefore hope the system of districting will not prevail. Dr. Kose and Mr. Locke, wished the question divided, so as to take the vote on the subject of districting by itself. The question was put upon that part of the motion which re- Jates to the dividing the State Into county districts for the choice of representatives, which motion was negatived, and the amend- ment did not prevail. Mr. Allen, of Norridgwock. Mr. President — I understand there are two things to be considered by the Convention. One is, to fix upon a small number of representatives, which must re- sult in districts ; the other is a representation of towns. One of these we must adopt, or otherwise we must take a middle course. The one that will accommodate the greatest number of townsj and the largest part of the population, will be most likely to he accepted. 1 have proposed to retain the report, and reduce the ratio from 1500 to 1200. My object is to prevent the ne- cessity of uniting towns, as is now the case, whose interests are diverse. He then moved to amend the third section by striking out " fifteen," and inf-erling ** twelve." Judge Bridge. I hope the alteration will not take place. From the best calculations we could make, the number of the first Legi lature will be one hundred and fifty. This is a larger number than has generally been expected — or than this Con- vention would like, if it can conveniently be prevented. Now, St where does the inconvenience wkich is complained of fall ? It will fail upon twenty or thirty towns, which are to be reliev- ed by changing the numbe'"s. But will this inconvenience be lasting ? It will not, Sir. They are rapidly increasing, and wiil 3oon arrive to the number requi-ie to entitle th^m to send an additional representative. Mr. Holmes sa'.d, it is my business to defend the report only 139^ when its principle!? are attacked. You have limited the first' Legislature, from one hundred, to one hundred and fifty, and thex-e additions arc to be made according to the increase of pop- ulation. The Legislature will apportion the numbers between lUOand 150, and if the amount is too small, will raise, and if too large reduce it. I believe that on this principle twelve hun- dred will give a larger number than is admitted. As the prin- ciple now stands, it is immaterial, as)^our Legislature may in- crease or diminish the number, and either way it will eorae to the same result. Mr. Allen said, if the population is 300,000 and it be equally divided, the number will amount to two hundred, taking fifteen hundred inhabitants tor each. And if we estimate what it will be in five years we shall find it will require eighteen hundred inhabitants to elect one. The motion to strike out 1300 and insert 1200 was lost, 15Q to 86. Mr Herrick (of B.) Mr. President — The most odious fea- ture in this scheme is the arbitrary mode of classing small towns. This, Sir, is a truly hideous monster that will be pro- ductive of great evils in practice. The union of Lewiston and Wales is monstrous ; but it is the inevitable result of the system. There are no small towns in that part of the couBtry with which they can be classed. These towns being remote, their inhabi- tants are strangers, and if it were not so they may have clashing interests, so as to render the privilege to small towns of little or no value. The same incongruity might be pointed out in other places. Ifsmall towns are arbitrarily put with large towns, they will have no voice in electing a Representative. But if Ihey are disposed to unite themseKes, let them do it, and if not let them receive the right, as may best subserve the convenience Or wishes ol either, and the difiiculfy will be removed. In ori der to make the scheme less objectionable than it now is, I will suggest an amendment by which that part of the section will read; ** and any two or more towns or plantations not having 1500 inhabitants each, but where the inhalitarits together shall amount to that number, which may voluntarily unite from year to year for that purpose, shall be entitled to one Representative.*^' Mr. Baldwin was disposed, if the majority wished for dis- tn( ts, that they should be gratified, but the report was a linsey woUey texture and neither one thing nor another. Judge Dana. Mr. President — I am opposed to the amend- 140 ment offered by the gentleman from B. and prefer the article as reported ; not. Sir, because I belonged to the commiliee that reported it ; but because the reported articles better secure the equal rights of all the citizens residing in towns and planta- tions, which must be classed, in order to be represented. The amendment proposes that towns and plantati )n3, to elect a rep- resentative must all voluntarily unite into a class or district. This, Sir, will put it into the power of any one town or planta- tion, however inconsiderable in a representative district, to pre- vent the others from being represented ; for instance in a class of half a dozen towns and plantations, any one of this m contain- ing ten families, refusing to bej classed may defeat all the others of the important right of representation. We are told, Sir, by the mover, that when a large and small town are classed togeth- er without their consent, that the small one will invariably be defeated of electing (heir Rt-presentatjve and that the large town wTll uniformly succeed in electing ^/icr* candidate. This, Sir, is not according to facts ; and experience shews, there always were in all towns a variety of interests— .and we n.ay reasona- bly conclude, that there always will 6c a diversity of interests in every town, either political, personal, religious, or local. The Sfnall towns might, and probably would av^il themselves of this difference of opinion, and unite wiUi the minority iu the larcje towns, and decide the election in their own favour. The small towns will be apprised of this advantage and will be disposed to improve it, and in this way will secuie, at least, their full weight and influence in the election of Representatives. — Again, Sir, this amendment propose.'^, that the Representative should be chi>^en by rotation in each tovvn and planUnon contained in the class. This would operate unequally and unjustly — a small town of twenty souls, would have i(s representative as often as one with a thousand, this could neither tie juit or equal, nor sanctioned by M\y correct priiciple. Besides, Sir, in this way, you destroy an iaportant right — You disfranchise the election distncl — You say to the electors you may chiose a Represtmta- tive, but it must not be a free choice^ he must live neither in this place or that ; bul in another — and how ofien will it happen, that in such a class, there will be some men of stronger claims and superior abilities — who would unite the suffrages of all the electors ? And yet they could not be permitted to choose him ; but must be deprived of a representaii'-e or compH.ned to vole for a mati obnoxious to nine (enlhsof the electors ; betore we adopt 141 a principle of ibis kind into our Constitution, before we thus iu- Tringe the right ol j^uffrage, and mulilale, if not destroy the elec- tive franchise; t^efore, I say, we engraft into our Constitution a priiicif>le fiought with so many evils and inconveniences, I trust we shall exan^ne and consider, and the result will be,that we reject the proposed amendment. 1 presume. Sir, the power of classing the towns will he exercised by the Legislature in a discreet and judicious iinanner,and am therefore of opinion it had letter he left with them. Dr. Phelps proposed an amendment a little varied from the one under consideration. Mr Neal, of Madison, said the gentleman from Augusta took up the county of York, to shew the equal operation of the scheme proposed by the committee. In ihatcounly, (said Mr. N.) every town letains its corporate rights and is fairly and equaliy represented. 1 >\ish, Sir, he had turned his attention to the towns in the interior counties, and looked at the i'lcon- venience they will suffer by this mode of classing. The distiict in which 1 live has an extent of seventy five n;iles and includes Madison, Solon, Bingham, Moscow and Northhill. Our town oflkers must repair ten or twelve miles to see if there is a choice of a Representative. This is a great burden and inconvenience to towns thus situated. Canaan, Warsaw, Palmyra, 8t. Albans and Corinna con. pose another district, the extent of which is ihiHy miles ; and Canaan has been heretofore entitled to a Rep- rest ntative alone. Sir, shall the rich man have his corporate ri^-hts preserved and the poor man be subjected to this mon- strous inconvenience ? The whole Stale by this aietbod will completely run into classes, and v\hy should we impose this partial burthen upon those least able to bear it F 1 hope, Sir, it will not [)e adopied. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President — I am not disposed to adhere to a provision meiely because it was reported by the commit- tee — 1 tiust the report will and ought to be amended. It is ap- prehended that the rights of the j eople in the small towns will be impaired. 1 hope v^e shall be able to cure the evil of which the gentUnnan so justly com})lains and which will expire with the first Legislature. 1 should be willing to leave it to the first Legislature to regulate the representation of these towns. There would be an equal difficulty in classing small towns. The most populous would have the power of selecting the candidate. On the other band, shgultj the QUoice b^ in each town in the class 142 in rotation, the larp;eor populous, would not have equal rigkts with the small. To remedy this inconvenience, if it can be remedied, 1 would suggest an amendment that the representa- tive shall not be selected from the same town or plantation in any class for more than two terms in succession. Mr. Vance was satisfied with the report. In the new coun- ties (said he) the small towns will have an advantage they never had before, and with this they must take the disadvantages. The district in which I live, in the county of Washington, is fifty -one miles in extent, yet we are perfectly satisfied. We are sensible we cannot have the right of being represented with- out its inconveniences. There is not one district in the State so large, or which will increase so fast, and we have now from twenty-one to twenty three hundred inhabitants. Yet we are satisfied and united throughout the county, and we had rather the number should be increased (o three thousand. I hope, Sir, the motion will not prevail. Mr. Herrick's amendment did not obtain. Judge Bridge observed, that perhaps no better evidence could be had of the iropres.*ion which the plan had made, than the representations ot the delegates from the towns to be class- ed ; and suggested that if they could meet and agree upon a Bnede which would be satisfactory and accommodate them, it would be best to adopt it. Mr. Neal (of E.) hoped the report would pass, as he had no doubt it was the best plan that could be adopted. Mr. \\ hitman said he should prefer the scheme which he had the honor to submit for consideration yesterday ; as thereby an equality of representation would, to the utmost practicable de- gree, be secured — but he had seen that it would not be ac- cepted by the Convention. The idea of districting, by class- ing the towns, seems to be extremely odious to many. Yet, though we are not about to do it generally, we are adopting it partially; and, I suppose, this will finally be considered as adopting about a fair medium between the extremes of opinion in relation to this subject. We shall secure the representation by towns in part. This is certainly a mongrel system. But I rejoice to see districting even partially adopted. In this way the people will find, by experience, that it will be best to adopt it generally ; and may have the representation reduced, or the constitution altered for that purpose. The gentlemen from small towns complain much of being. 143 'Aggrieved by this regulation — their (owns are obliged to be classed ; while the large towns are not. I have heard from them no complaint that the large towns are injured — that they are to be deprived of the right of equal representation — a right which ihe God of nature designed them. This is a grievance which the small towns do not feel. And it is an old saying, and a true one, that ** We can bear other people's misfortunes better than our own." The small towns cannot endure the little inconveniences resulting from a classification — but they can concur, without any sensibility upon the subject, in de- priving the large towns of their equal rights. It is said that the joining the large and small towns in the same district will enable the larger of the two to exercise the whole power. — But in practice it will not, I am confident, be found to be the case. There are always divisions originating in party spirit, or in the attachment to individual, or from lo- cal considerations, which will enable the small towns, by a kind of bargain with a minority in the large town?, to secure, at leaj^t, a proporiional share of mfluence. If the town of Port- land were united with Cape Elizabeth, such are and ever will be the divisions, of one kind or other, existing in this town, that Cape Elizabeth would always be enabled to have its influence. In ^\eTy proposition that can be made, in relation lo a |iub- lic measure, a possible case may be supposed, and may even be made to seem to be a probable case, in which the measure will operate inconveniently. We not unfrequently, in s^uch cases, frighten ourselves with bugbears and spectres out of the adoption o{ the most valuable propositions. Experience has, in millions of instances, proved the miserable fallacy of our political vjsicns. I do helieve that none of the predicted evils would result fiorn a general classification. Judge Thacher could not see the justice of the rerr.arks of the gentleman trom Augusta, relative to classing cf small towns. The Constitution, said Ihe Judge, gives a right to those who befure had not the right to send a representative. Now if we have so much alarm and difficulty, in classing two or lliree small towns which had no right, we ought to be sati'fied what would be thft effect of classing towns svhich had a right, and tbvt a gen- eral distiicting system could tiever be carried into efff^cf. Dr. Rose said, it was rmt the towns which had not heretofore been represented, but those which had had the rij^h' t.f sending a representative, which complain. There are many such towns 144 in difterent parts of the State. We ought, Sir, to take the facta as they are, and so far as I am acquainted, the t^act is otherwise than has been stated. If you allow towns voluntarily to come together, you get over difficulties, which if they are, compelled to unite, will be the cause of infinite mischief. Judge Thacher said, he sometimes was almost led to believe, that objections were put into the mouths of the people ; and they were represented here as saying, what they nfver thought of, much less would eventually say, on reading the Constitution Ihat vvill be rent out for their consideration. The Conveation are now endeavoring to devise an equal system of representa- tion ; and it being thought expedient to prefer t©wn represen- tation, as far as it can be without doing general injustice, it leaves a number of small towns and plantations, that have not individually inhabitants enough, that is, fifteen hundred, to en- title them each to a representative. What then shall be done ? They must be classed, or not represented. Classing two or more to make up the number of fifteen hundred inhabitants in- to an imperfect corporation, merely for the purpose of investing them with the right to elect a representative, cannot be a sub- ject of complaint. This is not taking away a right they before were entitled to: we are about giving them a new right. He said he did not understand the objection was made by the towns that heretofore sent one, but not having fifteen hundred inhab- itants now, will not be entitled to ^end a fe{)resen!ative under the new State ; for these seemed willing that fifteen hundred inhabitants, instead of one hundred and fifty qualified voters, , should be the standard to entitle a town to an entire representa-.^ tion. When the slill smaller towns and plantations see what a ; sacrifice the larger ones make, he thought it was doing their feel- ings and good sense injustice, to suppose they would object to a . classification. And especially as this classing arrangement is on-» Jy to continue till the small towns and plantations shall success- - ively contain the number of fifteen hundred inhabitants. When that becomes a fact, they will each take the rank of a town. He seemed to doubt the exaggerated representations that had been made by some of the members of the Convention, as to the angry, quarrelsome disposition of the people of the small towns and plantations adjoming one another. He felt very con- fident they were misrepresented ; and had no doubt, but when they were UK-de acquainted with the principles adopted by the Convention and the motives they acted upon, they would cheer- 145 fully receive and enjoy the benefit intended them ; and mee regularly according to the mode prescribed to elect their rep- resentative, and that there would be peace and harmony among them all. Mr. Holme? said, as there was not so much peace and har- mony produced by his motion as he aniicipated, he would beg leave to withdraw it. Motion withdrawn. Mr. Hobbs, of Waterborough, said, he hoped that politics would never be in fashion again, but we do not know what the Legislature might do, if they have the power ; and to prevent €v?fs which might otherwise arise, would Mfjove to insert " and plantations,^^ after *" ^ota^ns/' (which were not in the report.) Mr. Holmes moved that it should be so amended as to read, *' such plantations as are duly organized by law ;" — which amendment was adopted. After some further conversation relative to classing towns, Mr. Abbot, of Castine, moved after the word apportionment, to strike out *' it shall contain that number," and to insert " the Hou^e of Representatives shall contain two hundred members." This amendment passed. Mr. Emery, ot Portland, moved to amend the third section by striking out the word " three," and inserting '' five," so as to give towns which have 7600 inhabitants, the right to e\ec\Jive representatives. We have undoubtedly felt very much alive to the representations of the plantations and towns which have been clashed. But, Sir, the voice of ihe people throughout the cotmtry has been, that the representation sJiall be lessened ; when they think they shall be relieved from the burthen of a large representation. I ask whether the demand shall be com- plied with ? If they have not a sufficient answer that we must yield something — we have relinquished prejudices of forty ytars standing, that the towns should be obliged to support'; given negroes a right we deny students at college. This being approbated, will th^y not say we have no objec* tion to the concession you have made in classing the sniall lowns ? But how came you to yield to large towns the right to send five representatives ? They live near together ; we may say it was population, not territory that was to he represented. There was not to be a reduction without a sacrifice. True we live in the country, but are we not the strength and vigor ? Do we lot find the power of enlisting prejudices ? Do you not find 13 146 that when It is necessary to carry any measures into effect, you have recourse to the country ? It is not from fear of the influence of towns but that they want to get nnere power. Is it not right that they should concede to an equal number the right they enjoy ? If it is equality, which is the only principle — is it not right for them to yield to the large towns what has been yielded to others? — Motion lost. Mr. Parsons (of E.) moved to insert at the end of this section ** and any two towns having a sufficient number of inhabitants to elect one Representative, shall be joined together with the privilege of electing a Representative alternately; beginning with ihe oldest town or by an agreement of both towns may jointly elect one annually." Judge Dana. Mr. President — I believe the people are more likely to do right when left to themselves, than when they are shackled. If you say the towns shall choose from a particu- lar town, you take a right from them and compel them to choose a man whom they would not have chosen and destroy the right of election. They will best regulate themselves, and I hope we shall leave it in that manner. Dr. Rose was in favor of leaving it to the towns to exercise the right if they pleased and to increase the ratio. The amendment was negatived 135 to 27. Mr. Locke said, we hear complaints from towns which had the right to send one Representative, and also from Portland and other large towns Sir, I am contented to bear my portion of the inconvenience, and hope others will feel the same dispo- sition. Let them remember that " united we stand, divided we fall.'' For my part I hope. Sir, the report will be accept- ed, yea, that it will be accepted unanimously. The question was then taken on adopiing the 3d section as amended and decided in the affirmative, 203 rising in favor, and 41 against it. Section 4th was takeu up. A motion was made to amend this section in such a manner as to require a years residence of the representative in the town or class tor which he is elected. This motion was lost. All amendment was made, on motion of Mr. Holmes, which requires the person elected ** to have been a citizen of the U- nited States for five years." Mr. Locke moved an amendment, to strike out '• one" and insert '*^re," so as to require the age of the representative to he twenty Jive. 147 Judge Thacher said he approved of the motion of his friend from Chesterville. It always appeared to him very proper that before a person is called upon lo perform important hu?iness of any kind he should have allowed him time and opportunity to qualify himself for the station. This was tbe common dictate of the most common sense. And in the most common arts of life the practice is almost universally adopied. Who undertake to practice physic or Surgery without a regular course of stu* dies, and as often as possible, making a visitation lo foreign countries lo observe the course of practice in great hospitals where they can see the greatest variety of diseases and the modes of cure ? Do we not see institutions for theology, and academies for the studyof elementary science ? — Does a man undertake to teach a common school till he has been to school himself? The carpenter, the smith and the shoe-maker go through a regular apprenticeship. But the Legislator, combin- ing ail other arts and sciences, is to be considered as self-taught. The mere lawyer spends his four years at college, and then three more in a cnunseilor's office before he is considered quaU ificd to manage causes at an inferior court. Of all the arts in civilized society none is of so much importance as that of mak- ing laws for a nation ; none requires a more extensive know- ledge of particular objects or a greater power ofjcombination— When and how then is a boy just from under family govern- ment, with his freedom suit, slitfas buckram on his back, to ac- quire this vastly extensive knowledge of legislation ? They ought to have some acquaintance with mankind and the ordina- ry manner of doing business in town affairs. He did not like to see a legisialure fiiied with young men — and men of ho ex- perience. There would be no want of men over ihe age of twenty five and short of the age of imbecility through years or bodily infirmity, to fill the future legislatures of the state. He thought there was a- fitness in the nature of things for a young person be he ever so active, or ever so great a scholar to have some experience and an opportunity to acquire it, and not the moment he arrives at the age of twenty one be introduced into the great council of the nation. And by adopting the a- mendment, he thought, it would be received as a consiitut tonal expression of the people ihdii such was their reasonable expecta- tions. Judge Parria was decidedly opposed to the amendment. I do not (said he) apprehend any danger from admitting young 148 men into the legislature. The people will sufficiently di?crini- iiiate and will no doubt decide conectly wh<'are suitable per- sons to represent th< m. Whr-n young iHfn have been brought forwcird into the It gislature, it has been f . r their merit. 1 h^ve been in the senate- of Massachusetts and 1 have seen a man there less than twenty five years of age, the most active nian at thai board. Instead o» l)eirig brougl)l too S(n»n into public lift', young men have been kept down merely htcau'^e they were young men. If they are young men of genius, tliey ought to be encouraged. It is a narrow policy to exclude 'hem. I j^ee no danger whatever in trusting the people. They will decide correctly in this particular. But what is the danger ? that young n)en will be kept down and cramped. Sir, I am for in- couraging them and bringing them early intopubbc life, and letting them go through a state of probation. I know a man ia the largest State not twenty one, w ho is a most prominent mem- ber. Jiid^ie Cony. I hope, Sir, the motion will be sustained. It is not a new principle to require a certain age before admitting nien to public stations. An amendment which requires a rep- resentative to be twenty five years old, has my entire appro- bation ; and 1 hope no one will be allowed a seat in the senate until he is thirty year? of age. 1 believe it will best accord with the public wishes. Very few will be excluded, because fevir under that age will be cantlidales for that office. If, Sir, it Te(|uires several years to quality a man for a profession, it must surely require as much to initiate him into the difficult science of government. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President — T remember to have heard that when a certain member of Congress wa? aiked by the speaker, if he was qfmge, his reply was " ask my constituents that question." I iee no reason, Sir, why we should not trust the people to elect, if thev would, a youth of twenty one. Where is the danger ? There are, to be sure, two periods of a m?n's i fe in which he is not fi^ to be entrus ed with legislation, two peri- ods of infancy — a first and second childhood. Why should we limit the people as to one o< these and not the other? If there is any period of a man's life in which he is virtuous, it is bis youlh. He is not, then, taught in the intrigues and vices of the world. His passions are warm and generous, his affections pure and his honour unsulbed It is in this period that you may ex- pect disinterested friendship and ardent patriotism* 149 But if man in passing through a world of wickedness cloestifit . become contaminated by examples, he nevertheless brings with him habits and prejudices which are too often most powerful and pernicious, after the reasoning faculties are decayed. It is however, with much pleasure, that I yield that the venerable gentlemen who supported this amendment are honourable ex- ceptions. They bear testimony that wisdom is sometimes unit- ed with experience and virtue at an advanced age. But these gentlemen should be aware that their cases are more impressive for being singular. Sir, I would infinitely prefer excluding batchelors I consid- er a batchelor as rather a useless animal. Dr. Franklin com- pared him to the odd half of a pair scissors. Were we to ex- clude men from public employment, until they were married, the provision would be politic, aed the constitution would be popular. But, Sir, I never would discourage our young men from am early attention to the duties of the offices of state. The people will never elect them when young, until they discover that they are preeminently q'jaiified. [t is not in the immber of years that wisdom consists. The young miy be worthy, and the old depraved. *' For wisdom is the gray hairs of a man and an unspotted life is old age." Mr. Locke said he had seen difficulty in towns from elecfing young men into office, but wis not disposed to press the sulrject and would wkhdra^iu the motion. Mr. Baldwin sai4 he did not rise for the sake of popularity, but from a sense of duty. He hoped no person wouM think he had an antipathy or prepossession against the youth of the Slate merely on account of tjeir youth, as no one more strongly felt the tender endeiri.jg ties of parental affection, having a large family himseU, who he hoped would becoine useful members of ctjurcb and State ; but he hoppd they would be too uiodest to accepi aseU m the legislature at the age of twenty one. What! (interrogated Mr B) are we under the necessity of confiding ttieaifairo ofour new State to beard'ess boys— before they hive any knowledge of the world or real acquaintance with man- kind ? it was urged that the instances wouM he rare and their constituents the besi judges of their quaiiacations. But if one was ad.niiied, so might any member ; and he appealed to the h.»n. gentle.n^;n ot the Convention if they would tru.t their prop- ^ny on m^ ucem wiinout an experienced pilot? And, s-^id he, 150 does sound policy dictate, that the citizens of Maine should put their political interests afloat and confide Iheai to our youth who have just JeA the cradle ? The aiaxim of the wise man is very apposite on this occasion, ** with the aged is wisdom ; and in the length of days understanding." Mr. B. concluded by re- newing the motion which had been wi'hdrawn. Mr. Vance said the argument of the gentleman went to de« prive the public of the benefit of the genius and talents of the country. What, he asked, would Washington have been, if young men had been exiled from public stations. His great- ness was predicted at an early period of his life. He also al- luded to the case of the younger Pitt, who at the age of twenty one swayed the councils of Great Britain, with distinguished a- biJiJy. The motion was negatived, 144 to 46. Mr. Virgin, of Rumford, moved an amendment which should make a residence of three months prior to his election, in the tovvn or class for which he is elected, a necessary qualification of a representative ; which was adopted. Section 4 then passed as amended. Section 5, underwent some slight amendments. Dr. Rose moved to insert ** electing*^ in the proviso^ at the end of the section, which would enable the legislature to alter the mode of electing representatives in classes : — which was a- dupted without debate. Mr. Holmes said, the amendment would alter the whole sys- tem and give the legislature the power to alter the mode of electing, as to time, notice, &c. and moved a reconsideration. Judge Bridge approved the object but thought it had better be d( ae by introducing a provision to enable towns and plan- tations to meet togf?ther or otherwise if more convenient. Judge Dana hoped the vole would be reconsidered. Mr. Shepley thought it would not do to make the provision required, since the meetings for the choice of governor and sen- ators was to be held on the same day. The vote to adopt the amendment was reconsidered. Mr. Rice, of VViscasset, proposed to obviate the difficulty by auihorizii g.the legislature to enab'e the luhabiu n s of towns and p'anialions in the several classes to meet In one town or pjjntation on the applscation ofall the towns and plantations within the class to vote tor governor 4"C. but no vote was takep.. Section 5, then passed as amended nearly unanimously*. 151 The remaining sections, 6th, 7th and 8th passed without di- fision. ARTICLE W.'-Part Second. Senate. AFTERJVOOJV.-^Judge Cony, moved to amend the first section so that it should begin, •* The Senate shall consist of thirty-two members," at which number he wished the Senate permanently established. The provision of the Constitution of Massachusetts fixing the number of Senators at forty, was pre- dicated on the supposition that nine members should be elected from that body, to constitute the Council, which would leave the number of thirty-one in the Senate. And from thirty-one to thirty three or four, was the number of members, which for many years, transacted the business in the Senate of Massachu- setts. This was considered a suitabie number for the whole State ; and, continued the Judge, it may be so considered in this State. The additional expence is too inconsiderable to weigh any thing in this question. This number would be more likely, coming from the different parts of the State, to under- stand their interests. It would be easy to alter the apportion- ment to correspond to this alteratio» of their number. The Judge said, he should wish the term of their service to be two years, but would not insist on the question being taken at the same time. Gea, Wingate observed, that if the senate was to be appor- tioned by this number, it could not be equally apportioned among ihe counties. Mr. Holmea. There is the same reason that the members of the senate should gradually increase as that the house of re- presentatives should be progressive. The present number is not now tooimall, but it may be so when the country is much increased. 1 think twenty three is the best number to begin with, and it may hereafter be necessary to increase it to thirty one, or mnre. There are only two states in the Union which have permanently fixed the numberof their senate. Gen. Chandler said, Ihat the subject was very fully discussed in the committee — the result was, that a majority considered twenty three was the most proper number. He ihought any alteration would derange the whole system, as a proportion was intended to be preserved between the house and Ihe senate. Ju(Jge Thacher said, he knew no data by which it could be proved or inferred that any particular number was ih^l number nbicb ought to be preferred to some other number. The same 152 qncstion about numbers had been debated in fixing the bouse of represenlatives. He thought be had shewn it was arbitrary ; and might vary considerably, without any specific injury arising from it to the community— But there was one fact that ought not to be lost sight of, for it seemed to be in the mouth of every member of the Conventton, when they first came together, and that was, let there be a smxH house of representatives and senate compared to the legislature of Massachusetts — and the members might pitch arbitrary or diflferent numbers, and talk about their respective preferableness as lung as they pfeased, after all they must come back to experience as the best touch- stone to test their arguments — and, tor his part, his fears were that, notwithstanding the general voice of the people was in favor of a small number, the Convention would finally (iiL on too large a one — he wished gentlemen to look over the constitution?, and see what other slates had done on this particular subject — the United States commenced operations with a senate of raly twenty six members ; with a capacity of increase of twotnem- bers hy the accession of every new State to the Union. One would suppose, if twenty six senators were adequate to the functions of a senate for the whole nation, that thirty two would be too large for.a thirteenth part of the nation. By the theory of the senate of Massachusetts, the senate might consist of no more than thirty one senators — and when party spirit had occa- sioned it to rise to forty or near that number, it was looked , upon rather a grievance than a blessing. He added, that a survey of the' constitutions of the New England States, and ^ some of them had been recently revise^l, would lead to a con- ' elusion against the number proposed* New Hampshire had but ' thirteen members in their senate ; Kbode- Island, if he was not mistaken, had but ten or eleven ,* Connecticut twelve — a? to . Vermont, be knew but little about their government, or its ad- minislr-ition, but he thought those he ha t mentioned ought to weigh in f^vor of the smallest nnmter, as he had never heard that any of those Stales co(n{)lained that their senates were too small. He would only say, be was just intoriiied thit the senate' of New-York was composed of but twenty four freeholders — a Stale that now contains nearly one million of people, and proba- bly would increase equal to any stale in the Union. He could see no reason why thirty two should be preferred to twenty two or three, with 'vhich he >hould be ^atisfi. d — but he would rather dimim.'jh thai number than inctease it-the senators are not 153 considered as the iminediate representatives of the people ; but the house of represeiiiatives ; and they were fully numerous tnou^^h to take care of ali local interests. The senate is rather a compact body of wiadoin and reason, mi of passion and feeh ings, as some hold out the house to be— but such was uot his creed — nothing would be more unjust than to take from one part of the people the ri^ht to an equal voice in the house, and then compel iheui to pay an equal part of the expence. He ob- served, that a good deal had been said on one side and on the other about the exptnce — but this made no part of his objec- lion, provided it could be clearly made to appear that thirty two members would be better tnan twenty two or three. Our resources are ample, and will always be found sufficient for all the purposes of government without any oppression or incon- venience to the people. Yet if we can, as well as not, save the expense of a single member, though it be but litlle, he wish- ed it to be done. The motion was lost, and the section passed without amend- ment. On the second section being read, Mr. Holmes observed, that the question had been put, whether the committee took into coiisideration the basis of the senate ? and why they preferred population rather than property? The answer to the first question is tiiat n'e djd. The answer to the other is equally concise — the reason why we established it upon population was, because we saw no good reason to do it otherwise. Mr. Holmes then moved, an amendment of this section, by striking out the words '* one 'ior every increase of eight members'* and inserlmg ** until they shall amount to thirty one according to the increase^^ in the house of representives — which was accepted. Mr Dr-arborn moved to strike out the word '* three'' and insert "/our," that the Senate might consist of twenty four, in order, as he stated, that an additional Senator might be allowed to the county of Kennebeck. Mr. Holmes explained the reasons which induced the com- mittee to apportion the senators according to the report. He said, it was impossible to prevent fractions — that there was indeed a large fraction, (according to their estimate of about 5000) in Kennebeck ; but there was also a fraction of about the same amount the other way, in the county of Somerset, and that Kennebeck had a fraction over its representation. Mr. Dearborn, said what was given to Somersett, did uot 154 help Kennebeck — and th^t York was fully represented in (he senate and house. Mr. D. could not understand what there wag in the population, soil, or atmosphere of York, that entitled it to any preponderance over the other three large counlies — he did not wish it to be winked out of sii^ht, that his object in ma- king the motion, was to add another senator to Kennebeck. The county of Kennebeck, said Mr. D. is.enlilled n»ost assured- ly to as many senritor? as York, whether we predicated the representation in the senate upon population or properly ; we have already (he observed,) witnessed an unequal distri).tution of Representatives in one branch of the legislature, and hoped we should at least guard the other : — while the committee were satisfied with carving and dissecting the county of Kennebtck and coupling and clas.^i 'g its towns, n(»t a single town in York is classed with another — and how was this accomplished without a dereliction from the principles of the report? He called on the chairman to answer, whether Newfield, Cornish, or Alfred, con- tained fifteen hundred inhabitants, or within three hundred of that number? and if not, why spread that sunshine of favor over Yo.k, by sfivmg them each a representative? He hoped the Convention would lake this subject into serious considera- tion. Mr. Holmes made some further rem'^rks in explanation. Gen. Chandler s^id, in the committee it was decided by a majority, that the grand divisions of the state should be regar- ded in apportioning the representation — that the representatives sb'iuld first be apportioned on the counties, and that the senators sh >uld cilso be app:)rtioned to the counties, and for this purpose a subcommittee was apj)ointed to apportion them. If their calculation was correct he could see no sood reason for an al- teration, though a very equal apjjortionment could not be made and preserve county lines. Mr. Dearborn said, there was no county which had so large a fraction as Kennebeck, and called on the committee for furth- er information on the subj xt. Mr Deane said, the senate was apportioned as equally as it could be and preserve county lines. The committee he said, took into consideration taxes, population, polls, fyc. The only question which was made with us was whether we should place Kennebeck and Somerset together, or not. The motion was negatived, and the Section passed as amen- ded. 155 Mr. Dadrborn gave notice that, on Monday next, he should move for a reconsideration of the vote adopting the 2d and 3d sections of article 4tb, relating to representation. Sections 3d, 4th and 5th, passed without amendment or dis- cussion. Mr Holmes moved to Insert, in the 6th section, the provi- sion that Senators shall be twenty-five years of age. which was adopted, and the section as amended, passed ; and also sections 7 and 8, ARTICLE IV Part Third. Legislative Powers. Six sections passed with a slight amendment of the 2d. Mr. Holmes moved to strike out the latter part of section 7, with a view of leaving it to the discretion of the Legislature, to establish the mode of compensating the members ©f the Legis- lature. Rev. Mr. Hooper wished to have the pay established by the Constitution. He said, we were now setting out in the world, and it was necessary to practise economy, and thought it best to fix the pay of the first Governor, the Senators and Represen- tatives. He would fix their pay at the same it had been here- tofore. It would give satisfaction to have it done, for it had been held out to the people, that the expenses of the Government would be lessened. Mr Holmes. I hope we shall not have any blemish of this kind in our Constitution. Forty years' experience, in Massa- chusetts, has proved that there is no risk in trusting the Legisla- ture to establish their own compensation. Can we with saiety fix the compensation of any of the officers of the government in the Constitution ? What is an adequate sum to day, may be too much or too little to-morrow. ThH5 is the business of legis- lation, and it may be more safely trusted to the representatives, who expecting to be re-elected, will take care not to offend their constituents. Experience has lately proved, that such offences are not easily pardoned. Mr. Emery. 1 am opposed to striking out part of this .section, I believe it does not prescribe any thing unreasonable. The ex- penses of travelling to and from the LegisUture, ou^ht to be paid out of the public chest. I do not kuow but the committee have instructed the chairman to make this motion. But I am better satisfied with it, as it is, than to have it withdrawn. I can see no reason for the alteration. Is it unreasonable that the members of the House of Representatives,, who shall sea?ona- 156 bly attend a session of the Legislature, and do not depart there from without leave, should have their expenses in travelling thereto and from, once in a session, paid by the State out of the public Treasury ? Does this section contain any thing more than this, even by implication ? I really can see no ambiguity ; I can see nothing unreasonat>le or objectionable. Gen. Chandler said, the gentleman from Portland must be mistaken in his suggestion. He presumed it was not a propo- sition of the Committee. The object was to leave it for the Le- gislature to settle the mode of compensation of the members. Judge Thacher. I am always sorry to observe a jealousy of the Legislature. I have no such jealousy. We are entrusted to make laws for the latest generation. The two branches of Legislature, will hav» all legislative power, excepting where re- strained, and I think we had better leave it wholly with them. Col. Moody hoped Mr. Holmes' amendment would not take place. It might deter some towns from sending representatives which would send if they could have their travel paid at the public expense. The Legislature should be convened at the ex- pense of the State. Is there, he asked, any thing unfair in this ? The Legislature should fix the pay, but not say how it shall be had. If it was a wise provision to convene the Legislature in Massachusetts at the expense of the State, why should we alter it? Mr. Holmes. We agree is our object. My object is, that at all events, the members of the House shall be paid for their trav- el out of the public chest ; and not to say they shall be thus paid for their attendance. To remove the objections, anu to satisfy this Convention that 1 do mean the members shall be paid for their travel out of the treasury, I will vary the motion, so as to leave it to the Legislature to settle the mode of paying for their attendance. Mr. Wallingford wished to have the mode of payment fixed, anS to have it tajjen out of the State Treasury ; and hoped the payment for their attendance would be left to the Legislature. SATURDAY, OCT. 23. The committee which was appointed to report what Acta, Re- solves, and other Documents, it might be necessary to obtain from the office of the Secretary of the State, and of the Uifited States, reported a resolve, i^bicb was ordered to lie en the ta ble until Monday next. 157 The consideration of the motion to strike out that part ci' Section 7, Art. 4, part 3d. relating to payment ot" Repiesenta- tives, was resumed. Judge Dana — Mr. President, I hope, Sir, tlie motion olthe honorable gentleman from Alfred, to strike out a part, and I conceive, an important part of this section, will not prevail : if no alteration has taken place, in the number and manner of choosing representatives (in my absence from the convention,) I am satisfied thai their travelling expenses should be paid fiom the Treasury otlhe State ; and their attendance from the towns or districts they represent That their travel should be so paid is just and equal ; otherwise a tov^n or district, di'.tant from the seat of government, must pay the travel of their members all that distance, vvhiie those near, will incurno expense of that kind. To me therefore it is manifestly right, that the expf n-es of trav- elling, of all the representatives -hould be equalized upon, and borne by, the whole state. If this is not the case, small towns and districts, and those at a distance, will be deterred fr(»m sen- ding representatives, on account of the travelling expt'nses ; and there may be a difficulty in proportioning these expenses or) the towns and plantations composing a dj«:lrict ; but I am by no means prepared to say that their attendance should be paivi from the public chest. If their number was suffi- ciently diminished it might be proper to pay their attendance, as well as travel, from the funds of the Slate ; but vvhiie we in- dulge the sma// toii'ns and plantaii(m< with the [/rivtlege of sen- ding representatives, by diminishing the representatii n o( large ones^. would it be right to compel ihe latter to pay for this iovlul- gence given to theybrmer ? Nothing could be more unjust and unequal. The maxim, " that taxation and representation should go together," is a wise one, growing out of experience, and foun- ded in the nature of things, and a departure from this salutary and antient rule, has always created inquietude and di-order, and sometimes the most fatal consequences — we therefore ( ught cautiously to adhere to it. If we pay tlie altendar.ce, as well as travel from the treasury, the result will inevitably be, that tovTns and districts will swell the number of their represen- tatives to the extent, which will make an un«'Ieldly, and I may add, unsafe representation ; and create an unnecessary and an enormous expence to the state ; and what is much to be regret- ted, 'hose towns most curtailed in their representation, will be mostseverehj taxed, to defray this needless and unequal expense ; 14 158 whereas if each town and district, were to pay the attendance of tlieir own representatives it would be a salutarj check upon thorn, and keep our representation within suitable bounds. While therefore, Sir, I would pay the travelling expenses of all the representatives from the State treasury, I would require of towns and districts to pay the attendance of their own members. Mr. Baldwin said, it was generally considered a grievance lor the towns to pay their representatives for their attendance, and he thought they ought to be pjfid out of the public treasury. Mr. Heirick, of B. moved, after the words "the senators and representatives shall receive^' to insert '' out of the treasury of the Slate'''' such compensation, kc. and to erase the last sen- tence of the section. Mr. Herrick observed, that clamorous as he had bee» on the subject of representation, and unsuccessful as he had been in his efforts to get amendments introduced, which would, in his opinion, make the system better comport with the true interests of the people ; he didnot despair of obtaining an amendment in this part, which would remedy in a great measure, the imper- fections of the other. 1 am, he observed, in favor of making a permanent provision in the constitution, tor the payment of the whole expense of representation out of the publick treasury, and will offer my reasons : — The first is, the very laconic one offered yesterday by the gentleman from Alfred, for apportioning the senators accord- m^ to the population — '* that there is no good reason why it should be otherwise." A wrong impression seems to be made on the minds of gentlemen, that the services of a representative are to be confined to his own particular constituents, that his eye must be single to the inierests of his own town, regardless of ev- ery other consideration. But, sir, the representative of a town is as much the servant of the whole state, as the Governor is. if he is a part of the whole, why should not the whole pay him? It is objected that this mode does injustice to the large towns, because they pay heavy taxes in proportion to their representa- tion ; that the town of Portland, for instance, pays one third of the taxes of the county of Cumberland, while she obtains but one eighth of the representation. 1 cannot very Indistinctly see the foice of the objection. How happens it, sir, that Portland is thus oppressed with taxes P it is the consequence of her great wealth. It is a maxim with me, that a government, jhich pro- tides well for the poor, is good enough for the rich. The m.ode 159 ofpayingthe expense of representation out of the treasury ol (he State, is the practical effect of the maxim. It is putting the burden where it should be — on the shoulders of the strong. The inequality of representation complained of, results from the necessity of the case, if each town must pay its own rep- resentatives, it may fairly be inferred that each town has a rig,ht to decide, as a corporate body, whether it will elect a repre- sentative or not. How then, sir, are you assured that a provi- sion in another part of your constitution will be carried into ef- fect, that the house of representatives shall consist of at least one hundred members ? So many towns, to avoid the expense, may vote not to elect, that that number may not be elected. In an- other part of your constitution, you have provided that the Leg- islature may compel absent members to attend the Legislature. By what means, sir, will you compel the attendance of mem- bers, who have never been elected ? How will you avoid con- fusion in your classes, as you are pleased to call them ? Seve- ral towns composing one class, have their meeting at thesam^ time ; one tovvn votes not to elect, because it sees no prospect of deriving advantages enough from representation, to pay the ex- pense. Another town votes to elect, and casts its voles ; a rep- resentative is elected of course, and who pays the ex[)enses.^ Divest yonr ctinstilulion, sir, of its inconsistencies, before you oiler it to the people for adoption. Let us for a moment, con- sider the consequences of the old system of Massachu-etts ; that a town may decide whether it will elect a representative or not — whether disgraceful riots have not grovvn out of it, besides olher mi=ch:ct>. Great towns are always wealthy ; and will al- most always exercise their full right of representation, because the " burden is light*' on (hem, and they generally have an im- portant point to carry ; while the poor and unambitious town in the country, not considering that the whole is interested in every measure of the Legislature, goes into the inquiry, wheth- er any business will probably come before the Legislature joar- iicularly interesting to that town : except in times of great par- ty excitement, the question is pietty generally decided in the negative, and no representative U elected. Several towns in the same vicinity, make the same decision, and the voice of a great section of the State is not heard in the legislature. This is an evil, sir, but if it were the only one resulting from the sys- tem, it would be more tolerable. Mr. H. here alluded to the evil consequences of the system heretofore practised. And ic- 160 w^arked, that we ougbt to guard against the recurrence of such evils. We have very carefully guarded against some, which never did, and probably never would occur. Is it not more im- pcrtant to guard agamst those which have occurred, and which }olilical jugglers may cause again to recur ? Let me admonish you then, sir, as you value the tranquillity and happiness of the community ; as you would establish for the people of your State, a governmerft of laws and not of men : stop up every avenue by which the influence of faction may as- tail your councils. Mr. Holmes said it always gave him pleasure to hear the gen- tleman from Bowdoinham, because he never spoke unless he had something to say, and always left off when he had done. His object, he said, was precisely ihat of the gentleman. 1 wish to take the sense of the Convention, as to the manner of ^iaying the members. In my opinion they should be paid iVom the public chest, and that this is the only correct way. 1 am opposedlo having unnecessary discretion confined to tii« legislature. Judge Thacher.— He thought the variety of opinions rose from the inequality of representation ; or rather from the une- qual mode of elections. If the mode of election were more equal, that is, if the division of the towns was as equal as the appropriation of Representatives is upon the several counties, he should be in favor of paying the members of the legislature ©ut of the public treasury. But until this should be the case by an alteration in the mode of election by towns, it would be wrong to pay the representatives out of the treasury. Upon thisprin ciple every small to\An, and «very class of planlalions would most punclually send a representative, because the expense would be equally borne by the large towns. B/ddeford has just or near 1500 ir^.habitauts, while Saco has nearly double that number ; and why should the latter pay part of the representa- tive of the former? But this flows from the svstem of election by towns. Let the ruode of election be as equal as the repre- sentation on counties, and there will be no disagreement on Ibis ground. Nothing would be more unjust than to take from (me part of the people the right to an equal voice in the house, and then compel them to pay an equal part of the expence. He observed that some genlleman had complained of a great waste of time in debating on this and some other questions, be- cause it necessarily drew after it a heavy expense on the peo- I6i pie 1 To wliich be roust reply, Xhzi he saw nothing like a wast« of time — Questions that had thrown other communities and as- semblies into great commotion and agitation had been here dis- cussed with uncommon coohiess and harmony ; there had been but very little of feeling, except when some topic of a religious nature was debated, and the devotion oi a tew seemed to kindle into a fever pulse. For his part he was pleaded to find ihe gener- al course of debate so pacific, and as to the lime spent, it was not to be named. The |>eople expected the Convention would examine, every subject brought before them, and they knew it must consume considerable time. As to the pay of the travel of the representatives he was satisfied it ought to be taken out of the treasury — he had never heard that complained of under the forty years of administration of our present Government. It would be very hard and unequal for representatives of distant towns from the seat of government to travel two hundred miles, and then for the towns to pay for it, while the represeiUatives of the towns round about the seat of government c.^uld go home once or twice a week without troublie, and the towns have littlu or nothing to pay. s Judge Ames said, the question is upon stHkiiig out that part of the 7ih sedijn, making provision to pay the representatives for their travel out of the public Treasury. ' o this he was opposed — The honorable mover (he said,) at the time of ma- king the motion yesterday, assigned as a reason for it, that the legislature ought to have the power of providing, that the ex- pense both of the travel and attendance of the representatives Bliouid be paid out of the public Treasury, or by the several towns and classes, as they should deem most proper. In the course however of this morning's debate upon the subject, the honorable gentleman has avowed another reason for his motion, totally different from the first, and now wishes to strike out the same part of the section, that in stead thereof a provision may be inserted to pay the members both for travel and attendance out of the public Treasury — (Mr. A. said,) he apprehended, that both these reasons on mature deliberation, would be found to be equally unsound, and that the section ought to remain without amendment. In the establishment of every good gov- ernment, there are certain great leading principles, founded in the nature of man, which must be recognized and supported, as the only snre basis of public justice and individual protec- tion—Such are the principles recognized in the Bill of RightSj 14* 162 upon jour honor's table, and these principles of right, which no circumstances can change, must be secured to the individ- uals associated under the civil compact, by the provisions of the constitution, and not left to the uncertainty and instability of legislation — From the principles, recognized in the Bill of Rights, that all men are by nature equally free and independant, re'sulis the right of equal representation under the constitution, we are now forming. This right therefore, with equal privi- leges attending it, should be secured by the constitution. But would the system of representation in this constitution be equal in operation, and enjoyed with equal privileges, should each town be obliged to pay the travel of its own members ? The legislature is an aggregate body, composed of members from ev- ery part of the territory, over which its jurisdiction extends, and will be convened in the most central part of that territory. Each town or distiict is presumed to have relatively an eoual portion of the reprtisentation, and should have it at the same relative expense, or otherwise it w ill not be re{)resented upon equal and JMsl principles. But for the sake of elucidation, sup- pose two towns, each entitled to one Representative, the one being the seat of government, and the other placed at a distance of two hundred miles from it — the former would have nothing t» pay for travel and the latter forty dollars. To pay the rep- resentatives for their travel out of the public treasury is there- fore a necessary part of the system of equal representation, and ought to be among the provisions of the constitution. Thus (he said,) he was irresistibly brought to the conclusion, that the first reason, assigned by the honorable mover for striking out, was not sound in principle ; and the second would be found, as he apprehended, equally unjust and fallacious. It cannot (he said) but be perceived, that the present system of repiesentalion is a system of compromise, giving to the small towns a larger rep- resentation in proportion to their populatioH, than to large town?. Under these ciscumstances il has been thought by ma- siy, that the Senate ought to have been predicated upon laxa- hon, and apportioned accordingly, as in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Had this been the case, no reasonable objection could have been offered to paying all the members of the legis- iature for their attendance out of the public treasury, notwith- standing tiie unequal operation of the present sysleni of repre- sentation. Bui pre perty is not represented in either branch of :}ut legislature, the senate as well as the house, being predicated 163 upoD population. Is it right then to take from the large towns the privilege of being equally represented, and at the same time require of them not only to pay their own, but the Representa- tive? of other towns ? Will not this be the operation, should the gentleaian's motion prevail ? Examine the facts* The tovirn of Portland (Mr. A. said) as he was informed, pays one nine- teenth of the whole stale tax in Maine, and, upon the principle contended for, must pay eight representatives^ and be allowed to send but three. This also would be the operation with all the other large towns in the State ; and is it possible, that this prin- ciple can ba advocated by fair minded, impartial, honest men ? I will appeal to their consciences, and ask high-minded^ honorable gentlemen of this Convention, whether they are quite ready to establish a principle, so unjust and wicked in its oper- ation ? Whether they are so soon prepared to impress upon the features of this constitution the foul crime of robbery ? I do not, cannot believe it. Mr. Holmes — Sir — I said nothing of a fear of he people— I ^id express a fear of the legislature, but not of the people. There is a difference in the danger of trusting the legislature and the people. What are we here for but to make this distinc- tion, to preserve therights of the people, and to set landmarks, beyond which the legislature are not to go ? My object is not to strike out^ that the towns should be bur- dened with pay of the travel but to try the sense of the Con- vention whether they will not put the travel and attendance on the same footing and make it imperative q\\ the legislature to pay both out of the public treasury. If the representation is not equal make it so — If it is as equal is it can be under all circumstanership. Towns of 7500 in- habitants are to be shorn of part of their rights and a town with 4500 is to have as much power. Is there any reason for taking this equality of power from an equal number of people ? I can sit no longer and consent that they should also be (axed to pay for it. If you equalize representation and taxation — there would be a perfect equality in making the towns pay equally. 1 cannot consent that he small towns, &c. shall have an exclusive benefit. We must retrace our steps. Make the representation equal, and I have no objection to pay them out of the public chest. But to compel the large towns to submit to sacrifices and then to compel them to pay for this loss of privilege, I am opposed. I have always understood that in tbe old constitution the pro- rision for paying the travel out of the public chest was a com- promise between large and small towns. The President called the attention of the Convention to con- sider if it was necessary to decide this question. It might per- haps be better left to the legislatare to settle it« Gen. Chandler, was for leaving it to the Legislature. Mr. Herrick enforced the argumtnl in support of his motion. Judge Bridge rofe to say, he resjretted that the committee should find it necessary to oppose the report. The committee left it where it ought to be : that the pay for the travel should be paid out of the public chest, and left the mode of paying the attendance to be settlt d by the legislature. He hoped the re- port would be accepted. Ju.'lge Thacher made some fuilber illustrations cf (he ine- quality of the representation. Mr. Whitman. 1 do not believe it Is at all important that i^e should make any regulation of this kind. It i? as certain as any thing can be that tbe repiesentalives if they have the { ower will vole to pay themselves, wholly but of the public chejt. If the legislative body were properly coastituted, and of a com- 165 petenl number merely to transact the public business to the best advantage, there would be every reason why they should be so paid. As it is, it will have every motive for paying itself wholly out of the public chest. The motive being strong, and the principle, in the abstract, being in favor of it, we must be- lieve they will do it. [ say the motives will be powerful to induce them to it. What are these motives.^ We are about to say thit the large, old and more wealthy towns shall be deprived of no inconsid- erable share of their right in comparison with the small tovvns. These old towns, have, at the same time, much more than an ecjual proportion of the wealth. Their influence is to be di- minished, perhaps, in about the same proportion as they arft comparatively wealthier. In some instances the di&preporlion against the large towns is much greater. In this county for in- stance the tovTn of Portland pays about one third of the publfc taxes — at the same time that it is to have but one eighth of the weight. Under such circumstances can the representatives from the small towns return to their constituents and say that they have voted their whole pay directly from their purses ; when by voting it out of the public chest they would pay but a third part or a quarter of it. So it will happen that Portland will have but three representatives, and be, nevertheless, com- pelled to pay for eight. The same will be the case, though, for the present in a loss degree, with all the other old and large towns. But Hallowell and Augusta pay one fourth part of the tax- es in Kennebeck,and send but two representatives. Besides there is to be no check in the Senate. Were the senate apportioned accordin.oj to valuation, a^ heretofore, that body might have fur- nished a check. Cut as it is there will be neither check nor mo- tive to prevent the payment of the whole expenditure from the public chest. I desire it may be distinctly remembered that I am in favor of so paying it if the legislature were properly constituted. Let the representation be equal ; and of the suitable number, let them be kept together, s.nd be made to consider themselves as charged with the public welfare, and there would be no reason why they should nor be so paid. Mr. Emery. Mr. Presidewt, when I look at the preamble of the constitution and see it professing to establish justice, I feel a pleasing expectation that justice will be contained in the rest of tl^e constitution. I beheve we have started with wrong principles as to the ex- 166 pfjctation of th« extent of the legi^-lature. No one, six months ago expected over one hundred representatives, and we shall find the number fixed on too large. New-York in 1787 framed her constitution establishing one hundred representatives, limit- ing the number at three hundred, but the State became dissatis- fied with so numerous a house, ancl in 1801 revised their consli- tution and fixed it not to exceed one hundred and fifty, and find- ing the senate ofone hundred too large, fixed it at thirty-three, yet that state has now more than a million of inhabitants. Why then should we, with a population of less than a third that num- ber, require two hundred Representatives. Experience had taught that state that their representation was cumbrous and in- convenient, but no wish was now felt to raise the nuwiber to three hundred again. If an equal number of people elected an equal number of representatives — should we have had a question of justice and morality presented to us? The error is in giving to one part of the community the right which is withheld from another and yet compelling them to pay for this loss of privilege. I know of the sufferings of the people in new towns. I am willing to consider their sufF^^rings. But, Sir, it is not a life of suffering. They have much fertile soil. They get wealth and comfort which will be envied by the world. They secure health, competence and quiet— Can any portion of the comjnu- nity secure more for enjoyment ? Let us see if towns on the sea shore, if fishermen do not sufFf^r. The people nholiveon the Islands ; do they not procure their snbsii-tance at the hazard of their lives ? do they not have to launch their boat in the most inclement season and go about from place to place to procure a bushel of corn to subsist upon ? Is that a hardship ? Is it a hardship for the poor sailor to perform his duty in all weathers— to handle sails, blow high or blow low, to enrirh his emjiloyers ? But they are not entitled to vote, or to representation, which is the same ihi'ig. Yet they are exposed to hardships and suffer- ings, while the landsaian is secure. VVill the delegates say that right or wrong they will pay themselvps out of the public chest and not leave them a right to be heard ? I believe they have more elevated views. If they return Jiome and a question is aeked them why is thi? or that provision in the constitution ? they will say, I did by my neigh- bors as I would have others do by myself, The straight forward course of justice as it is the only proper, so in the end it will be 167 found the only popular course. The provision has been retained because the good sense of the commuuity has approved of it. Mr. Holmes. It. is my wish that the various interests of all classes should be consulted. I have wished the pay of the mem- beis should be in proportion to the rejtresentation, I am sensible this is not so. I will therefore vary my proposal so as to add, at the end of the section — *' and they shall be paid for their at- tendance out of the public treasury and the expense thereof shall be assessed on the inhabitants of the several counties ac- cording to thfcir number of Representatives." I believe this will be upon principles of justice. Each county will pay in pro- portion to its numbers and each town will pay according to its representation. The vote was then taken on the motion of Mr. Holmes, to strike out, and it was negatived, 38 being for and 1S6 against it. Rev, Mr. Hooper moved to strike out ihe first part of the sec- tion and substitute a provision that the senators and representa- tives shall receive a compensation which shall not be increased or diminished, to take effect during the term for which they are elected. iVhich was negatived, without a division. Judge Green moved to add to the section, ^^ But ihe atten- dance of the members shall be paid by the several towns and classes in which they shall have been elected.' "^ This motion was negatived, 55 to 107. The question on the acceptance of Mr. Herrick's amendment to insert the words, " out of the Treasury of the State," passed in the negative, 88 in favor and 134 against it. Mr. Holmes then offered his amendment to assess it on coun- ties, which was also negatived, 20 to 147. The seventh section now passed as reported nearly unani- mously. Sections Sth and 9th passed without discussion. Section 10. Mr. Hobbs moved to strike out iheproviso, Mr. Holmes. The proviso seews to be necessary. You are to organize a new government and to this end must create many new offices. Your first legislature will be extensive and as its business will be important, will require most of the talents of the State. Were you to exclude all these, it is doubt- ful where you would find a sufficient number of suitable men to fill the offices. The people would be exceedingly embarrassed, not knowing whom to elect and whom to reserve for office. The object of the provision is to prevent unnecessary offices 168 being created, or salaries unreasonably increased to satisfy the ambition or cupidity of those who create or increase therei ; but the reason will scarcely apply to the first legislature, and if it did, the circumstances of the state seem to require the excep- tion. The motion was negatived. Judge Thacher moved to strike out *' No member of Con* gres?, nor person holding any office under the United Slates." This motion was lost. Mr. Dane, of Wells, moved to insert, after *' Justices of the Peace," *' and of the Sessions,^'' in order thatjustices of sessions should not be excluded from the legislature. Mr. Whitman doubted if this would be a judicious amend- ment. It is important, said he, to exclude the judicial officers from the legislature. They {should not have it in their power to enlarge their own jurisdiction. The Court of Sessions has heretofore had an exten«^ive criminal jurisdiction. It may be expedient that they should again have it. In such case it would be improper for them to be members of the legislature. If it were not tor the sweep it would make, it would be well to ex- clude Justices of the Peace. When men go to the legislature, if not already, they soon become Justices of the Peace, and if they are all! Justices of Peace, what guarantee shall we have, that they will not extend their jurisdiction ? It would be de- sirable, if it would not exclude such a host, to exclude them. It would be better, if a court were constituted in each town who should be called the town judge, who should have the jurisdic- tion which justices now have, in their stead, and such judges might be excluded from the legislature. Judge Thacher thought that from their small number they eould not have much nor a dangeroos influence in the legislature. Executive and judicial officers ought generally to be excluded, but it could not be very important to eitend it to Justices of the Sessions. Motion lost. Sections 11 and 12, the last in this article, then passed the Convention. ARTICLE V. — Part First — Executive Power. Sections 1 and 2 passed without debate. Section 3. Mr. Russell moved to strike out •' first Wednes- day of January" and insert '• October y"* -which did not pass. Sections 4* 5 and 6, passed with some verbal amendment, ^principally for tbe purpose of making them more correct in style. 169 Co?. Moody moved to strike " diminished" from the 6tb sec- lion in order to leave unrestrained the po'.ver of diminishing the salary of the governor during his continuance in office. Mr. Whitman objected, for the reason that he considered such a power to be inconsistent wiih a suitable independence of th».^ first magistrate. The danger ot losing a portion of his in- come might induce him improperly to court favor, and preveet him from firmly resisting corrupii*)n and wrong. It was also opposed by Judge Thacher, and withdrawn. Gen. Chandler suggested the propriety of amending the 7th section, so as to admit the right in the commander in chief of the militia, to pursue a beaten enemy over the line of the State. Mr. Holmes said if the alteration were made it would be one of principle, which was tatipu from the old Provincial Charters. It would be dangerous to give an executive officer the power to march troops out of the State, without the consent of the troops, •r of the legislature, which, if necessary, might be obtained. Section 7, then passed without amendment. The remaining sections 9th, lOih, llth,12lbaDd 13tb, passed without debate. ARTICLE V.—Part Second— -Cowwci/. Dr. Rose moved to strike out the whole article — be thcught a council unnecessary, and that dispensing with one would be a great saving of expence, an expence without any adequate ad- vantage. The government of the United States had no establish- ed council. The President consults with the heads of depart- ments, who are called his cabinet council ; and the governor will have his aids, adjutant general and other officers to as>ist him in the discharge of his duties, with whom he may advise. The Executive of most of the other States, act without a coun- cil, and no complaint is made of the want of one. New York has one, which they would be glad to be rid of. I believe, said Dr. R we can get a Governor as capable of doing the business of the Executive alone, as other States. If we give him a council, we not only incur a useless expense, but divide the responsibility, and open a door for intrigue. The Senators will come from all parts of the State and will give bim all the information he could obtain from a Council. And besides, as has heretofore been the case, he may have a coun- cil in whom he has no confidence. Mr Holocs said, be thought it his duty to d.efend the Re- port. In the committf-e, said he, I urged the same arguments 15 170 agamst a Council which the gentleman from Boothbay has of- fered, considering it a useless appendage to the government. But I received such information from those gentlemen on the Committee who ha^e been members of Council, that such bu- siness was done by them, which otherwise, must be done at a much greater expense by men with established salaries, that ! was convinced it was best to retain it. The Lieutenant Gov- ernor is given up on all bands, but I hope we shall preserve the Council. Mr. Whitman regretted that the Hon. gentleman from Au- gusta, (Judge Bridge,) who was not then in the house, was ab- sent. He being at present a member of the Council of Massa- •huselts, might enlighten us, as he did the cornmirtef-, on this subject. Having had however a little experience iu that body myself, (j-aid he) \ will suggest a few consideraticns in favor of it. Advising in relation to appointments, is but a trifling part, eomparatively, of their duly. To the public, however, thi? hag *een.ed to be the sole object of having such a body. It should be remembered that no money, for any purpose whatever, can be drawn from the Treasury, but by warrant from the Govern- or with advice of Council. Such a check upon the issues from the Treasury, must be lodged somewhere. In the Treasury of the United States, these checks and safeguards are numeicus. Whoever makes a claim upon that Treasury, must present the evidences of his right of claim to the auditor, who examhfes it, nnd, if deemed by him to be just and legaK it is next submit- ted to the ccn)p*rt;ller. If he should be salif-fied of its justice also, he will add bis certificate to that of the auditor, all uhich must be delivered to the Treasurer, who causes a warrant to be made out, which being signed by all those officers, and, fi- nally, approved by the Secretary of the Treasury, will enable the applicant to get his money. VVe have niade provision for none of these saleguards for our Treasury, The Governor and Council have heretofere been found c(»mpetent to the purpose in this State, And this is the cheapest eHlal)!ibhn'ent we can have lor such a purpose* Tl»e Council have, constantly, a stand- injjconmi.ittee of their body, enfru^^ted with this branch of busi- jie-is. Every application for money (rou) the Treasury. i> re- ferred to this Committee, who hear the applicant, or examine hi^ documents, and, having accertaijied the tacts, report them to the Governor and Council, with an ©pinion as lo tbe juMice or isjjuslice gf the claim* If just, ajjd the report be accepted, a 171 nairant issues — otherwise not. it is manifest that the Gover- nor could not, alone, allend to all this : afid 1 presunae we shall not find it for the interest oi' the State to establish an Auditor's Office, with his clerks and olher expenses, in lieu oi'a council, which would not cost a quarter pari as much. This power over the Treasury must be lodged somewhere. It will not do to al- low the Treasurer to del ermine what claiiii3 ought to be paid, and to pay them at his discretion. The power of pardoning offences also must be lodged some- where. There must be some mode of investigating tlie facts in relation to (his subject. The States' prison is full of convicts. -Applicaiions are continually made by them, or their friends* To them it will not do to turn a deaf ear. Every claim of ibis sort must undergo an investigation. A standing committee i« charged with this branch of business ; their duties are often la- borious. Their reports of facts and opinions are numerous, as the records will show ; for every thing m council, must be en- tered at large on the records. There is confided to the Governor and Council, still, ano?her blanch of busiues.'j, which requires a standing commi tee. T-iie Governor, with ihe advice oi Council, is to organize tne militia, by dividing into Divisions, Brigades, Regiments, 4'c. The ap- fihcations for a lie rations, for the formation of new Companies, and Ihe abolishing or consolidating others, are very numerous, and require much investigation. On (he whole, sir, I beheve there is no olher body of men vvhalever, v^ho have, undc^r the Constiiution of Massa.jjusetts, performed so much and so impor- tant service, at so small an expense. Dr.. Rose said he was convinced the members of the Council were profilably employed ; but thought the Treasury W3S in no more danger \\i:hout, than with ihem. It could not be se- cured, unless the Treasurer were a res[)onsible man. He kntj w of no Oilier Stale, winch had had Hs Treasury plundr^.ifd, but Massachusetts, which is almost the only o^ie that has a coun- cil The nu.tion to strike out tlie Article was ne^'-afived. -AFTb:KYOO^\—M^. Lu^^aon, of Shapleidi, moved to amend die fiisl section, by sirdiing out '' seven" and insertnu' *' five,'' as the number of wUtch the Council should consist. "^ Col. Moody hoped the motion would not prevail. If, said he, the gentleman would consider ihe extent of our territory 172 and thp provision that no uiore than one Councillor can be (a* ken (Vom a county ; that the proposed number is smaller than thnt of Massachusetts, and the variety ot subjects which come befure them, I ihirik he could not wish to reduce it. The dif- ference of expense between five and seven is so trifling, that i think no one will vole for five in preference, merely on that ac count. And considering the extent of the State, and that in ad- vising the Executive in relation to apportionments, it might be found nece sary to have one from the seven most important di- visions »»r.« Ui •JUij5€r?»» ufcision* There is another coHrjmittee on military affairs, which keeps a «iocket, and has as much business as two or ♦.hree can attend to. There is also a committee on warrants, and a distinct commit- tee on county treasurers' accounts. There is another on pen- sions, which we may not want. But we shall find seven too small a number to do the busines*' that will come before them. But he had not stated all. The Council is frequently called to- gether when the Legislature is not in session ; and it is the gen- eral tribunal, to which every thing relating to government is re- ferred. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President — I doubt whether we are not dispos^ed to be a httle more prudent than is consistent with wis- dom. VVe might, by ihis amendment, possibly save a hundred and twenty dollars. And even if we can do this, we should see at what expense we save it. Two hours sitting here, will eat up this expense. We are told, sir, that the Council is divided into conimittees. Where are standing committees, of two or \h\ee apiece, to be taken from, if the Council consists of but 173 ;^ve — and who will advice the Governor? If their business Is done by others, we must have a coriiptroller of the treasury, and a secretary oi war, with a salary of fifteen hundred dollars, to save one hundred and twenty Now, sir, 1 was opposed to a Council, until I was convinced of its utility. But if we have one, let ih have one that is efficient, if we have a stnall num- ber, they will be the mere puppets of the Governor, or open to intrigue and corruption I would bring to your view, sir, thins:* that would convince you that it will not do to have a Council, which will a.erely serve to throw the responsibility from the Governor. Ralher let us have no scape goat to carry off his sins. The effect will be, the Governor will say the Council beguiled us, and we did eat. In leed, for the reputation and benefil of posterity, I hope the motion will not prevail. Dr. Rose said the arguments had convinced him, that it would be better to have five than seven. How, he asked, can we have committees out of seven, more than out of five ? Mr. Leighton said we hrive had but two or three of the coun- cil of Massachusetts taken from Maine, and thought if we now had five, it would be sufficient. Judge Cony observed, that seven could hardly be considered too large a number, especially as one or two would usually be absent. Gen. Chandler said he had been opposed to a Council, and supposed all the business might be done by the Governor. But • on hearing the arguments which had been offered, and being in- formed of the business done by them, he was convinced of its utility, and his impression then was, that it was best to adhere to the report. Mr. Whitman observed, there was one thing which bad not been mentioned in the remarks on this subject, which was, that the Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts, was a member of the Council, and performed bis duties with the others, which made the whole number ten. The motion to strike out sevm, was lost, 1 10 to 74 ; and sec- tion I passed, without a dissenting vote. Sec. 2 Mr. Baldwin moved to amend this section, by sin- king out the words which vest the power of electing Council- lors in the Legi:.lature, and inserting a provision for their elec- tion by the qualified electors, 4^0. He thought the Council ought to be chosen by the people. If, said Mr. B. they are cho- :ren by the Legislature, they will of course all be of the same .15* 174 polilical complexion as the majority may happen to be. But tf they are electeu by the people, ihey may take such men as they please, and they will represent the diflferent polilical views of the difierenl parts ol the country. Mr. Shepley spoke against the motion ; and said that if the members of the Council were chosen by the people, it would be necessary to district the Stale anew for that purpose, and that the effect of it would be to pn.duce collisions, which it is desirable as much as possible lo avoid. Judge Cony said, the election of councillors by the Legisla- ture, was not depri»ii>g the people of their rights* 1 presume, said the Judge, the pe*)pie expect to delegate some of their pow- er to the Governnjent ; and would it be for the interest of the peof)le to retain this power ? On the contrary, i:s exercise would be found very inconvenient ; and none are so well qual- ified to make the selection as the members of the Legislature. The motion was lost, and the section passed with a small a- mendment. Sec. 3 Mr. Whitman moved to insert the words '* who agree thereto.^' which was agreed to. Judge Bridge made some explanations of the mode of record- ing the proceedings of the Council. They are first made oA a kind of waste book, and entered for every day on the record^, to which the members sign their names. A provision is made ibr eifher House of the Legislature to call for these records, so that thc^re is a complete responsibility of the members of ihe Council. Sec. 4. Mr Whitman moved to amend, by inserting after ** any person holding any office," the words '^in the Executive department o/ " — " the United States," He wished to keep up a distinction between the Executive departments of the two irovernments. He was not for having the exclusion so exten- sive fts to j.'revenl any v%ho hold offices under the United Slates^ Irom being Councillors, J bis amendment was adopted, and the section passed as a- mended. ARTICLE v.— Part Third— Secretary. The four sections in this Article, passed without amendment •r debate. ARTICLE v.— Fart FovRTU-^Treamry, ' A moiionvvas made to amend the second section by requir- ing the treasurer's bond to be approved by the governor instead ■>i lh':i Icsidature- 175 Mr. Holmes, in support of the report, observed that the peQ- j\q were always jealous of the disposal of their money ; and as their money is to be drawn from the treasury by the joint act of the governor and the treasurer, it was thought best to have the bond given to the satisfrtction of the Legislature. Such ie the provision in the Constitution of Massachusetts, and it was tljought best to retain it. Motion withdrawn. The lour sections in this article passed without further dis- cussion and without amendment. ARTICLE Vl.-^Judicial Power, The six sections in this article passed unanimously without debate. ARTICLE Vn-- Military, Mr. Little, of Bucksport, proposed to strike out (he whole article. Cul. Currier, of Readfield, moved to amend by inserting after the word '' companies," these words, *' the electors shall be twenty one years of age." Mr. Holmes. It is the la«;t proposition I would support — ex- clude those under twenty one from the right to vote, it is a grievance which has long demanded redress. Those between eighteen and twenty one are generally the best soldiers and of- ten constitute half the company — And are these to be silent and see officers put over them, without their voice, and by men IO0 who are soon to retire ? It has created much jealousy, disgust and complaint, and been universally deemed unequal and un- just and I tru-t it will be so considered by the Convention. It was one of the worst features in the Constitution of Massachu- ^etfs, and I rejoice thai we have an opportunity to suppress it. Col. Currier. I can see no reason why minors should be al- lowed to vote for military any more than for civil officers. They are not considered as coming to years of discretion until they are twenty one. They go to meeting to see their father* vote, for state and town officers, but until they acquire some knowledge and experience it is not considered a hardship to exclude them from the right to vote th*^mselves. Mr. Holmes. The elector ot State officers chooses his ser- vant. the eoldier/izs master^ and a boy o{ fourteen may choose a -master, Cni. Allen, of Saiiford, 3poke of the difficulty of discriminal- iis^ between those of age and minow. 176 Mr. Little thought it better to leave it to the legisiaturc* Col. Atherton said, he felt it his duty to oppose the amend- ujent — he had witnessed the ill effects of turning ambitious" young men out of the ranks on days of election, merely because they had not arrived at the age of twenty one. MeveiUjeless ihey are ordered out to attend ihese meetings, and as it would seem, only to mortify their pride and ambition. It certainly has had thisefifect to his knowledge to a very extensive degree. Can we for a moment suppose, Mr. President, that the yourjg men from eighteen to twenty-one, to whom we are willing t» entrust the safety of our lives and the protection of our liberties are incompetent to choose their own officers ? I hope, S»r,(said he) we shall forever do away this humiliating distinction which never can answer any other end than to damp the ardor of youth and destroy that ambition and emulation without whick ©ur military establishments would be good for nothing. On motion of Judge Bridge, Ordered^ That a committee of nine be appointed to take int© •onsideration the apportionment of senators and representatives for the first legislature, and to report such facts as they may find in relation thereto ; and whether justice requires that any alteration should take place in such apportionment : — The Hon, Judge Green, Judge Parris, Dr. Rose, Mr. Gitchell of Vassal- borough, Mr. Virgin, Col. Trescott, of Lubec, Maj. Treat, of Bangor, Col. Atherton and Mr. Collins, of Anson, were appoint- ed the said committee. MONDAY, OCTOBER 25. A communication was received from the Secretary of the Commonwealth olMa.'^sachuselts, enclosing a list of the votee given in, in the several towns, within the District of Maine, up- on the subject of separation of the said District ; which was or- dered to be placed upon the files. Gen. Wingate moved to reconsiderthe vote passed on Sat- urday, on the amendment proposed by the Hon. Mr. Vi hitman, in the 5th article, part 2d, section 41 h — which was in these words, strike out the word *• under," and insert the words ** in the executive department of." Judge Green stated that he believed the motion when it pass- ed w^as not perfectly understood. The amendment throws op- en the doors of the council to the officers of the general govern- :ment. He thought it highly improper-to admit all these officers. 17f snd contrary to the system of excluding all officers of the gen eral government from laking pari in uur state government. Mr. Whitman opposed the reconsideration. The amend- ment was distinctly explained, and he believed well understood in all its bearings, when the vote was passed. We should not, said Mr. W. exclude men from otHce, but for good and sufficient reasons. i did think the distinction between the executive and the oth- er branches should be kept up. And I do conceive that the legislative and executive branches of the two governments had ought to be kept as distinct as possible. Beyond this I do not think it necessary to go. We may find it necessary to have the services of the other officers of the United States, and we ought not to exclude them. We may find it extremely convenient (o avail ourselves of the information and talents of those who are in the judicial apartment, by placing them, or having the pow- er to place them in the council. First we exclude members of congress, and next any officer in the execuiive depajlment. Further than this we ought not to go or we may exclude the best talenis in the state. The gentleman from Bath said we should exclude, 5ls (he section now stands, oidy the secretary of state. Sir, it is not so, it excludes the President and every of- ficer under him in the execuiive department of Uie United States, fi ittglci to b^d^privad at the rouncil board of the talents oJ our oollectorsof the revenue ; but they are a part of the execuiive branch of the government and therefore ought not to be intro- duced. But when it ap[)lies to the judiciary, what incompati- bility is there, in their being members of the council? The Judge has only to say what is the meaning of the laws of the United Slates. I would not therefore exclude ourselves from benefitting our council by introducing the judi^es, unless there is some manifest reason for it. I would not reject them. The proposition vvas passed with great unanimity, and 1 hope it will not be reversed. Mr. Holmes said, he thought that as the section now stands, it will extend only to executive officers, which he believed is not what was intended. 1 see no reason, said Mr. H why we should ei elude officers of the Stale, more than those of the U- nited Slates. 1 can see no difference between a judge of Unit- ed States Court, and a judge of this State. I think it immateii- al whether both are excepted or both admitted. There is, in m/ opinion no incompatibility in admitting them; but it wotiM 178 %e an edious discrimlDation to include one and exclude the oXhex* The motion to reconsider prevailed, and the amendment waa lost. Mr. Holmes then moved to in«ert after the word *' State," tlte words** or persons holding any executive office under the Unit- ed States, or this Slate, notaries public excepted." Mr. Holmes said he would exclude loth or include both, Mr, Dole, ol AIna, hoped the motion would not prevail ; he believed the sectionwas then in its most perfect shape. Mr. Whitman. I think it is better that the section should 9tar»d as )t i*, than to adopt the aniendtnent. I do btiif^ve it to be a well founded principle that the different branches of the govfrnment fchould be kept distiwct. Shall we then say that the judges may be mei^bers of the ej^ecutive department ? Will nut the governor and council appoint tbet-e very judges ? Sir,^ the judges of our supreme judicial court are, I liust, to be \he^ first nien in the State and ought not to have the power of nonj- nating themselves. I would not mix thoSe branches when tKere is no necessity for the intermixture To suffer them to be iheir own creators, would, in my opiivi( n, be a ujanifest ifnpropiiety. I would noi grant lhis power to the executive deparln.eni. But they have nolhint^ to do with the appointment ot the judges oi* the United States Courts., if, however, they must be both ex- cluded, or included, 1 must vote against it. Judge Thacher had no objt;cti(;n to lh« exclu-^ion of State Judges, in order to prevent a confusion of department'^ ; but thought the reason did not extend to the officers of the United States, He could see no evil that could possibly aii«e from in- troducing the judicial ofFicers of the United Slates into the council. Judge Psrris. I hope, Sir, the motion will not prevail. There can be no necess!t\ of takurg the judges (or niembers of the council and not kee[)ing the departUients distmct. I can see no reason for m 'iking a dtslioLlion in fa\our of the judgts oi the United States. As ihe lav\b of the U. S. now are, there is but one judicial officer of th*^ United S.r^fes, who, under the amend- ment, would be placed in the council ; and 1 am sure he would ncM take a seat in ih^t body to advi-e ihe governor Mt Preble rose to expref^s his sari^f^ction with the article as it stood, and hoped they would not attempt to n^ake these nice' :and invidious distinctions. Mr. Holmes. From forty years experience in Massachusetts^ 179 I am satisfied the gentleman from Portland is incorrect, as Judg- es of the State have been, and judges of the United Slates have not been elected members of the council. As 1 thought the Cdnvention wished not to exclude the judicial officers of the U. States. I made the motion. But the argument of the jijentleman •lid not satisfy me, and as I cannot be saiisfied, I will withdravr the motion. Mr. Holmes submitted the following amendment to he added to the 3tl section of article 4, part first : — " And whenever any town not entitled to elect a represeniative shall determine a- gainst a classification with any other town or plantation, the legislature shall, at each apportionment of representatives, oii the application of such town, authorize it to elect a representative for surh portion :>f time, and such periods, assh-^ll be equal to its proportion of representatives, and the right of repre*ns v^hich might be «. ffered fur the meintier- from ihe small towns niii^hl he heard and some mode devised that would he satisfaciory to them. But he ahouM not be willing tt)at tne whole subject should go to a cori'^ii tee Judi.e Green was bUo willingj to save time — but not to set the whole «u.Sject afloat. We ou^ht not, said the Judge, to inovf i , or disturb it. The {pjtsiion for a re consideration of the whole su' JK^i is ^oon to c<»me t'efore us, when it will under- go a discussion — and 1 am sa?i-fied the Conventii^n will not re- consider it, unless a substitute i.^ offered. But I think the mo- tion .4iou!d be committed, to see if any thing which would re- nx^e the difficulty can be devised. He then moved that the subject of Mr. Holmes' motion be committed to a select commit- tee. Dr Rose hoped it would not be committed. He said the pro- position gave the small towns an opportunity of choosing to- gether, or not ; and was a mode of making peace among the towns. It does not alter the report, any further than to pro- vide for those towns a mode of being represented, which gives them an opportunity of making their election whether to be re- presented or not. Mr, Baldwin thought that if an opportunity were ^iven to col- lect the minds of those ccmcerned in classification, a more satis- factory system might be agreed on. Judge Thacher observed, he was not certain that he under- stood the effect of the motion of the gentleman from Alfred, in the sense he meant it, but if he did, he said, he was most decidedly against it. He said, he thought it was a de- parture irono the fundamental principle, soul and spirit of the whole section : which he understood to be, that no portion of the people less than fifteen hundred, except in one possible event, should be authorised to elect a representative. Where- as, if the amendment takes place, i? may be, and probably will frequently so turn out, that a portion of the people, not exceed- ing two oj" three hundred will be invested with the right of electing a representative : or more properly, the simple major- ity of qualified voters found in that small portion of the people, who may not exceed fifteen 'or twenty, will have the riglit once, in two, three, or five years to elect a represtntalive ; which re- J8i presentative will have the same power, durinor the lime he is elected for, as a member chosen by the lull majority of a town of two thousand itihabitanl?. Suppose three small towns or plantations ?re put into a class, be- cause they con ain fifteen hu:i«!rad inhabitants — ihese individu- als in {heir newly classed capacity.cotisWUile acorporation to which the Constitution annexes the right of electing one repre>en!a' live ; in this view, these fitteen hundred persons are in no re- spect different from the people in the towns of Saco, or Bidde- Ibrd, or any other town having fifieen hundred inhabitants, and not enough to send two representatives. The true piinciple of the section is that every fifteen hundred, with the occasional frac- tions it may contain till it shall have enough to entitle them to send two, shall send one representative, and but one. It matters nothing to say the fi({een hundred persons llius classed together are distributed over the territory of three incorporated towns, or plantations. The right of representation is not one of the town or plantation rights ; and whatever may have been the case under the ancient charters of the Colonies and Provinces, towns or plantations do not necessaiily include the right of electing a representative. And as well may that portion of people. In any other incorporated town which are included in a school district, claim the right to a separate representation, as these small towns and plantations. Nor did he see any abstract ground or reason on which one of these small towns or p'anla- tions could be justified in their claims o( privileges, over any equal portion of the people in any of (he large towns. He continued to obser^'e, tliat it appeared to him some evils might grow out of such a regulation ; ^vhat if each of tl)ese im- aginary component parts of a town should apply for tfieir ngiit to a separate election of a representative as often as their numbers might be found to bear its ratio to the whole number of the class ? Shall each have the privilege the same year ? Or shall A. have it the first year, B. the second and C. the third ? If it be granted to one only for the same year, which has the right of priority ? And is not this tantamount to saying that tfie majority only of one third of the votes in a town slidl elect the representative, while the two majorities of the oUier two parts are not permitted to vote at all — And so the town may always be represented by a person who is opposed by four fifths of Its qualified voters ! But he wjshed to know, what there v^ras to prevent the Le m's- 16 182 iature permitlinp:each part to elect the same year; and one had as 4,'ood a liglii as ibe oihei ; f(;r ihe real equ va'ent ihis portion of people give iorlt]e privilfg^ of hM)( i,,g one ^^.plesentatlve ift this njaniier, i-j thai thev w»ilingl^ constnl u- It wi.l.out arep- res^enlative tiii iheir toin .shall cume round ggaiii, in ;hiee, four, or five years, accordint; to the ratio iht^ir uun.ier btarstothe whule. And it is rjatuiMl to sm| |)u>t (he tinrifs and circumstan- ces may be such as thai each town or plantation, in llje class, may have good reasons for their ?ei;arate ri^ht, in one year rather than another — Indeed, he ihiught \ery strange resuks> might be expected to tr ke p ace fruni an arrangenient so novel, and contrary to an\ thing he fiad been hiil^ertu ycquamted with. Judge Dana. Mr. Pre^^ident — I caimot agree to the amend- menzofour b()noural)le chairn>an of .he committee It is his duty to explain and support the report; but when he discovers necessary a?rjendn)( nis, it is his paramount duty to propose ihtm. With ^//i5 rzezi' he has undogbtedly offered ihis amend- 7nent ; and I conteis 1 discover in it some salutary provisions.. Where a town has not a sufficient number to seiid a represen- tative, and so situated that it cannot be cla.ssed, it is proper that such town shc»uld have representation according to its pcpu- lation ; so, where two or more towns are classed, but aie not contis^uous and conveniently situated for a district, it Q;ay be convenient for them, each to enjoy its representation by rota- tion. But while lhe.se benefits may l>e derived from the amend- ment, is the honorable mover aware of all the evil consequen- ces, which will result from it ? Suppose a town to be cTassed with a nuniber of plantations — by taking the town from the dis- trict, you break it up, and thereby deprive the remainder of the class from enjoying the right of being represented — for they may be so situated, that they cannot be formed into another district. Again, Sir, the amen^nient as now pile What, Sir, will be the effect of this amendment^* We shall have ihe compact part of the Slate applying t^or a repre>entation, and leave the plaiitation^, of thr«e or four biin- dre i population, in etfect without a representation. Wilh sucii an extent of territory as they will be composed of, and thirty or forty tniif'S for the assessor's to travel to examine and compare the voles, I think it will be tantamount to denying thein a repre- seiilation Their right is, that a town wdh five hundred inhab^ itan's ^hall have a right to send once in five years, and wilh four hundred once in six years. Sir, if we adopt this proposition, it Will only inr\ke confusion worse conCounded. Mr. Miller, of Warren, observed, if vve consume four hours in this discussion, we shall then be where we now are ; and hoped the subject would be coiniudted, that the towns con- cerned might state the inconveniences and 5ee if they were sus- ceptible of remedy. Mr. Holmes hoped it would be commi:teJ, to see if the towns in the classes might not i)e accommodated. Judge Dana suggested whether it .vould not be well also to commit itie subject of Iwoor moie towns, which are entitled to send two. Dr. Peikins, of Weld. Mr. President— I hope the amend- ment will not prevail. The reason why the gentlemen from Ihj small towas say nothing ob this subject, is in my opinion, be- 184 cause they are already satisfied, and are determined how (o ' \o'e. Hy tliis system, if a person is chosen by one lownjie will consider himself as representing ihe other (owns. Hut one town if it chooses, ran break up (he district and vole not to send a representative and thereby the district will not be represented. These towns lalior under incof)veniencies, but they are willing to do so, for the public ^t;ood. They must do that or not have the r!;:^ht over the large towns, in repre^entati<.n. Mr. Vance, ol Calais, confirmed the observation of Dr. Per- kins, that th(>?e towns wire well satisfied— at least, said he, as much so as iUey possibly could be. considering the situation of ihe country. In his district there were th'ee towns, and six ])!anlalions ; suppose each town to apply to the Legislature,' two towns will then have no representative and the plantations uone at all, as their turn will con.e oiice only in uine years, Mr. Leach, of Raymond, expressed his approbatrbn of ihe pri)p(^s tion of Mr. [Jolmes. Mr. Parsons intimated that, as the next distribution would ?aise the number of inhabitants to confer 'he right to send a rep- esentative, other towns were concerned. The motion to commit obtained, 112 to 88. The committee appointed on ihissuljecl con.'isted of the fol- lowing members selected from the several counties ; Messrs. Dole, of AIna ; \Hood, ol Lebanon ; Leach, of Raymond;- Lawson, of Wayne ; Perkins, of Weld ; Aiberton, of Prospect ; Neal, of Madison ; Wiikins, of Orrington, and Burgin, of Ear^t- port. Gen. W^ingate then submitted a further amendment to (he 3d section aforesaid : v'»hich was read and ordered to lie upon die table. ARTICLE VU.-^Mvitary. Sections 1 and 2, [)assfcd «ilh verbal amendments, sugges- ted by Gen. Wiui^ate. Section 3. Gen. Wingate moved to insert " Quarter-Mas- !er-General," and also, *' but the Adjutant-General shall per- form the duties of Quarter Master General, until otherwise di- rected by law." Which was agreed to. Col. Hobbs, of Berwick, moved, after the words "the Ma- r-Generals shall be chosen'' to strike out *' by the Senate dud House of Representatives, each having a negative on the other," and to insert "by the Brigadier Generals, and the Field OfTiccrs in their respective Divisions." In support of this motion, he abserped, ihat he bad seen practical evils in the present mode of electing Major-Generals. It had produced the election of men not before in commission, and thereby excited a dis-atisfaclion among the officers in commission, who consid- ered themselves in a manner superseded ; and he had known an Ensign resign, in consequence of the appointment of a Major- General. The Militia, said Mr. IL are the best judges of the qualifications of those who are to command them, and the most deeply interested in securing the talents and knowledge on which they must rely for their respectability, usefulness, and safety. The legislature i^ composed of men from various clas- ses of society — men generally exempted from military duty and little acquainted with tactics ; not having an .identity of feeling with the soldier, and conse(iuently, not suitable to judge of the merits of candidates for aiilitary promotion. Col. Atherton preferred to have the section stand as it was. The Legislature are tlie guardians of our civil rights, and with r them siiould rest the appointment of our highest military com- manders. It would be highly i npropf r to place the power of electing so highly responsible an officer a? a M^jor General, who may have twenty-eight thousand men under his command, in tlie hands of the military. A very dangerous use might be made of this power. He was dis[)osed to secure the military all the prjvijeges to which they are entitled ; but he considered, that in this particular,there should be some balance to the espirit du corps, and under excitement which might sometimes exist 'among them. Mr. Holmes. The Committee thought it safest to leave it as it is in Massachusetts. It has happened, that in selecting the Brigadier-Generals, from military principles improper men have been appointed ; and it may be best to depart in some instances from strict military rules. We have generally pre- ferred the old system, unlesii a valid objection was made, or 5iome substantial reason was offered for changing. Experience is the best school-master Under the Constitution of Massa- c!)usetts, we have done well enough in this particular; and it is a favorite maxim with some gentlemen, io let well alone, Mr Ailams, ofGorham, said he must differ in sentiment trom his friend from Berwick. The Legislature had indeed in some instances, departed from the usu'il practice of making choice of the next (officer in rank ; but whenever this had been done, especially in electing a Major General, for that di?ision 16=^ 186 ^iODiprised in the county of York, the militia had been greatly benefitted by the innovation, if it could be so called. This motion was lost, 62 tor and 104 against it. Section 3, passed as amended. Section 4, passed without debate. Sections. Persons of the denomination of Quakers and Sha- , uers, shall be exempt from military duty ; bui no person except . the Justices of the Supreme Judicial Court shall be exempted by reason of holding or having held, any civil office, under thiis stale without paying an equivalent. Mr Hall, of Buci fi^ld, moved to strike out this section and sub-litule the following: " The militia who are by law obliged to bt-.ar arms, shall have a reasonable compensation for their services." In support of this motion, Mr. Hall observed, that: property ou_yht to pay for the protection furnished by personal services — that such a system would remedy the inequality and * injustice of the present arrangement, and that the militia wQuld be sati-fieil, should there be a considerable number of exempts, if an equivalent should be required. Col Atherton. No man, Mr. President, can feel more sensi* bly than I do, the great and unequal burdens, which have been exclusively sustained by the militia ; and no one is ready to go farther, and do more to equalize those burdens than 1 am. There can be no question as to the justice of allowing a reason- able compensation for military services. It would be dividing among the whole a large tax, which is now thrown on a part. It would cost the people no more than it now does ; yet it would be apportioned more equally amongst, all classes. But. sir, notwithstanding the manifest justice of this claim, it may ^ be inexpedient to make the provision in the Constitution. It w^ould at present be extremely difficult to raise the iunds for this ^ object. Hereafter it may be and ought to be done. It wi!J be * left for the Legislature to equalize the burdens. I am convinced that the militia will be perfectly satisfied at this time, with' .som>ething less, as perhaps an exen5plion from a poll tax. Mr. Redington, of Yassalborough, said the state of his health would have prevented his rising to address the Convention, if be was not compelled by a sense of duty to offer a few remarks. 1 should have no ol)jection, said Mr. R. to this provi-ion, if it was not for the attempt to draw into the ranks of the militia, some religious denominations, whose consciences forbid their doing military dutv, A dis^t incfion is attempted to he drawn. 187 between the rendering a personal service as a soldier, and pa/- ing an equivalent ; but they are substantially the same. And those who have these conscientious scruples, can no more pay an equivalent, than take up arms and perform (he duties of a soldier. Sir, what is an equivalent ? It is something which is equal to that from which they are exempted. You exempt men from committing what they consider a crime ; but you require them to perform services which are equal, or are an equivalent. Let me call the attention of the Convention to a kw facts, sir, and they will be convinced that they cannot do the last, any more than the first. The United States made a law, that the soldiers of the conti- nental army, in the revolutionary war, might receive pensions for their services. Now these are men who have fought the bat- tles of our independence, and have since become quakers ; and they will not receive their pensions. I knew an instance of this kind, and can there be a stronger one, to show that exemp- tion from military duty wiil not relieve their consciences, while they are compelled to pay an equivalent ? Another fact 1 will state. 1 have known the property of quaker??, to twenty times the amount, taken and sold for the payment of military fines, and they would not receive the surplus. I knew a man who was imprisoned for refusing to pay a fine, and he would not come out, although others offered to discharge it. If the Con- vention consider these facls, they must be convinced that qua- kers cannot, in conscience, pay an equivalent for the exenip- tion. It has been said, we should have none to di^fend us, if all were quakers. On the contrary, we should so conduct, that none would attack us. Having lived among thena from thirty to forty years, I do know that they are a very different kind of people from what I once thought tliern. They pay their taxes for other purposes, but they cannot discharge a military assess- ment. They do not wish their property or live? to be defend- ed at the cannon's moulh. They never give offence toothers^ and historv can furnish no example of their wars. In reality however they pay more than an equivalent tor military servi- ces. They support their own poor, and this alone is more than an equivalent. No poor quaker was ever known to apply to the town for relief. In addition to this, they pay their proportion for the support of the poor of tlie towns in which they live* They also ^Jipport their own schools ; and they never asked 6r 188 Teceived any public lands of the Legislature. If this sec I ion is ' left out they will be exposed to a tax, or to pay an equivalent, and 1 think the militia Ihennjelves will be opposed to ir, I hope therefore it will remain, and be a part of the Constitution. Rev. Mr. Francis, of Leeda, was not satisfied with the r»eport. It goes to establish a principle which we have, in our bill of rights, declared we ou^ht not to establish, and which ought not to be established — the preference of one sect or denomination to another. I would not wish to make quakers do military du- ty, or that any others should be compelled to do it, who are conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms. I would therefore propose, ia case the present motion does not obtain, to substi- tute an amendment, that all persons whose religi(»us sentiments forbid them engaging in war, should be exempted from military duty. Mr. Holme?. Mr. President — 1 will support this part of the report, as well because it is so reported, as that it meets my ap probation. It is well as it i^. it merely intimates to the Leg- islature tha* they y)m\j exempt quaker* and shakers. It suppo- se? that it will be best ge7ieraUy to exempt them ; but that a state of things may exist, when if shall be necessary that they should contribute something for military purposes I d.» not a- gree with tlie gentleman trom Leeds, (Mr. Francis) that it in- terferes with the provisi ;n in the bill of rights, ofgiviwg one de- nomination a privilcL^e greater than that enjoyed by anuther it would rather interfere with the right of conscience, lo compel the.^e people to contribute to purposes of war. And what would be the effect of such an attempt.^ How would you make a sol- dier of a quaker, with his long tailed coat and his broad brim hat ? Upon what principles of humanity would you drag him into the ranks, or (he prison, for refusing to do what his con- science tells him is wrong ? There seems, to be sure, son»e reason thai the quakers should pay for their protection. But it is equally true, that they cause no military expenses. They want no grants tor schools or academies ; they demand no re- muneration for the support of their poor, and they refuse not the aids whicii charity demands. The reasons are equally strong in favor of the shakers. This singular people contribute nothing to the increase ot" Riankind, and very properly refuse to aid in their destiuction. They are • nol of the wor-d : they are not made iA flesh and blood. They share none of the benefits of the extravagances of society, and, wish to be exemoted from the effect of them. 189 As to the power to exempt civil officers of the state, these are very prnperly denied. The inducement of le<^isIators to ex- empt themselves, is loo strong to be resisted. They will be- come justices of the peace, and the first thing is to exempt themselves from military duty. This, by this Consitution, ihey are not permitted to do. Consequently two or three regiments of able bodied clerlis, sheriffs, and justices of the peace, vvdl be brought into the ranks ; the reappointments, new appoint- ments, and the dijiappointments together. Thus, sir, v\e can have an army at a moment's warning. As 10 the proposition of the gentleman from Buckfield, (Mr. Hall) although I may think it reasonable to pay the ndlitia, we ought to inquire whether we have the money. We are yet p."?or, and must begin with economy, and when the purse will bear it, let the legislature pay the militia. 1 trust neither of the propositions will be adopted. Mr. Hall said he did not wi^^h to make the Quakers do mil- itary duty. He thought that if it was let't to the Legislature, they would exempt such as they saw fit, and that if instead of turning all into the ranks they caused the militia to be paid, it would be satisfactory to them, as it would mcrease the burden of those who have heretofore been free from an equal share.— The militia now labor under a heavy burden ; and if they are the bulwark of our country, they ought to be compensated for their services. If we say that a small proportion of the people shall bear all the burden of defence, and are not paid for their services, they have not that protection of their righis which they are entitled to. Juilge Thacher enquired who w^as to determine what a man's cofiscieiiiious scruples were ; and when they were sincere ? The Judge said, he was very well acquainted with the Soci- eties of Friends, and for many years while he was at New Yoik, and Philadelphia, he had opportunities of seeing n uch of their regulations as societies of chris'it^ns, and to be intirrialely ac- qu ifited with manv of them as individuals, and he did not hes- itate to say he was ready to go farther than any n^ember had gone in appreciating their principles in general as a sect of christians, and of their individual conduct that it approached, in several respects, ne^rar io evangelical purify than any o'her sect he was acquainted with ; yet ht thought they hcr himself, to fee] more lor a small tax to support a nnnister or to build a meeting- house than of its real repugnaiice to any of the Laws of Jesus, the»r real or pretended master — that is contrary to the laws of that kingdom which is not of this world. Of. this, however, he was ready to do justice to the Quakers. He had never fuund them very zealous in maliing converts from other denominations; nor did be know of their interfering with other societies by at- tempting to exempt their regular numbers from a parish tax by extending to them the /cc;fl/ covering and protection of the mere forms of their f>wn society, as some other sects had frequently done — Of which practice he believed he could produce a num- ber of instances fiom trials that had taken place in the courts of law ; where he (bought it was manifest, that conscience was but a secondary consideration, and a pretence to get cJear of a regu- lar tax. Furthermore, he said there were already formed societies, and probably otliersof a like nature and profession might start up, whose professed ol)j^ct is to discountenance national wars ; and, he had no doubt, that if the amendment took place, it would soon t>ecome a supposed natural sentiment with their members, especially those who might mistake obstinacy or par- ty spirit, for co7iscierice, V- plead cmisacnce as a ground and justi- fying reason why they should be exempted from the miliii^ or some tax they may please to say {heir conscience tells them is to carry on a war. ln«ieed, he felt persuaded, there could Oe no fixed limits to exempliuns if the amendment became a constitu- tional priaciple. 191 He was perfectly ^ati«fied, he continued, this talk about cob* science rf vvtiicb -ume [)e »pie luade >u njuch noise, in one sect and a.iudier, wa^ not clenrly understood ; and he bej^ged the at- tention oi the Cuuvontion. a t«Mv nn^ments, and he thon^hi he shtftlJ be abb to satiety evt-rv meaiber of it, that it wa- not on- ly Sill unsafe ^loutid to f jund exetupiuin'* u^)<)n ; but that those wbc» have pleaded it, and no^v contend so n.ucb tor it, havp al- together nii-tcjktn the na*ure and charictei of heir uwn mcxts of the Chii-tiaci Reli^jon — But he v^i^t>ed tu premise fii-^t — that in a country wiiere the ctiri>«i^n reigi )n wa^i so ^eiier- ally professed, in snaie form or other, as to be supp(»rted by all the inhabitants, it is not to be presumed that any Le^Haiure would knowingly pass a gtneral law, directly contrary to the laws of their religion, which it is ack »ow!ediied in this coun- try, are contained in the Hible — there, an^ there only must p op'e look lor the religion of christians. And in this countrj be thougtit aH would agree with him lh.it it would be very un- safe indeed to leave it to the opinions ut indivduals that they could not in conscience obey such or such a law, or pay an equivalent in mom y or services because they might be of opin- ion they could sfievv by reasoning on the common piinciples of the understandin^j and of natural ih«H)loj5y, tbit the requisiiions of the law were repugnant to the dictates of their consciences. Many individuals may consider a law is n.t so beneficial to the public, or their particular interests as it might be if it were al- tered in some respects — or even that it would be better for the community if it were repealed altogether ; but such opinions or convictions o/cumcieneey as some may call them, are no le- gitimate grounds tor p^r^onal exemptions. Conscience, he thought ought ratiier to be considered as an impelHng force^ than a diiectmg principle in human actions. And where the unilerstanding is uninformed and darkened by prejudices or party spirit, an ardent, zealous temporal man was likely to do as much hurt to individuals and the public by adhering to /f is conscience, as one who made n_i pretention at all to religion — He alluded to the family of the Dutarties, of Sduth-Carolina ; and to old Caivin, and asked, who ever doubled but the latter acted very conscieniiously in the aid and advice he gave to the burnirjg of poor Servetus ? But who, lie again demanded, ever committed a more wicked and cruel action ? The torture of the victim was not the less, becausa his persecutor, throu:^h ig- norance of the principles and spirit of bis proteased religion. 192 might have acted consdeDiwmly. He thought it foreign to the point in debate lo go intu a consideration, how far the criminal- ity uf fhe action vvou^d he aflVcted hy these considerations. Who ever called in question the sincerity of (he consciences of the Judges and Jurors who condei^ned so nnany men and women at Salem, for Witches and Wizards 1 The Quakers then)selves were persecuted hy our pious, godly and conscien^ ii'US lorefalhers ; and so were some other sects. Indeed he observed, the whole history of the Church, (not to rest solely on the case of the great Apostle to the Gentiles whose umn- lii^htened, tho sincere conscience is very much to the point, how far it (jught to be made the giound ol exemption from general civil duty) as well as all party disputes of a political nature amount lo a moral demonstration that conscience or the moral sense is a principle, in human natuie, that rjeeds instruction as much as any other of its original principles, and where it is neglected rt did about as much hurt as good, and was as oiten wrong as right ; and when wrong, but connected wiih erroneous princi- ples 0/ religion y it never failed to impell devotees to the greatest enormities. But to come n^iore directly to the argument, he said, it might be taken for granted, that the Quakers and others, who claim the exemption on the ground of conscience, do it as Christians, that is, as disciples and JoUowers of Jesus, and in obedience to his reliii^ion : ur in other words they claim lo be subjects of his kmgdom, and as such cannot render obedience to the laws or requinitions of any other government that are contrary to, or forbidden by the laws of tiis kingdom He thought this was the ground they ought to take; and as a christian and brother dis- ciple he was willing they with him should enjoy the beeefits (A that kindom to its utmost extent, as Jesus, their common Master and King intended his followers should. The principle of this claim, he said, was common to all gov- ernments. It IS acknowledged every day in the State Govern- ments with regard to their constitutions and laws, as related to the constitution and laws t f the United Stales ; and in the laws of each state, as related to their respective constitutions — when the laws ot Congress are contrary to the Constitution of the United States, or the laws of a Sraie are contrary to its Con- stitutivin, or that ot the U»Mted States, they are void — So any law of man, or requi^iljon under ,) hunjan law, contrary to, or forbidden by the laws of Christ's kingdom, are null and void — 103 But lh« lawsof Chrisrs kingdom, that are to be received hy his disciples as para mount to all human, laws ought to be .clear and rxptess ; it cannot be received, as he betoie observed, that ev- ery man's opinion of particular aclions being wrong according to some mode ot ratiocinaiion on supposed principles of expedi- ency, or general utility, will bring ihose actions wifhin the case. And it must be recollected that Christ's kingdom is not of this world. He never pretended to regulate things that are called property, according to the laws of particular nations, or the ac- lions of men in but few cases^— -His laws are over Ibe heart, they regulate the feelings, affections and temper; they take higher ground than human laws ; he does not siojply say, thou shall not kill ; but purify the heart, and when duly obeyed, make it as unnecessary to say to his disciples, thou shall not kill, as it would have been for the Deiiy, on the creation of Adam, to com- mand him not to fly like the eagie. A little attention to some of the precepts that compose the code of that kingdom into which men enter when they become disciples of Jesus, will shew whether they interfere at all with the proposed article in ques- tion — He would name a few of them by way of illustration-^- •' Jesus is to be received as the Christ" — '* He is to be acknow- ledged before men ; and any denial cf him betore men is a re- nunciation of allegiance" — '' All his subjects must love one an- other" — ** they must love their enemies" — ^* tiiey must do good to those who do evil to them" — in other words ihey should ren- der good for evil — '• they must never act from revenge or mal- ice" — '' they must forgive those who offend and i;ijure them" — *' they must preach and publish the gospel" — " tbey must on all occasions obey God rather than man." Now all these, with the rest of the code,too numerous to detail, but of the same char- acter, the apostles, irr their various epistles, explnined and enfor- ced consistently with obedience to the general law? of Ibe em- pire. And wherein, at this lime, is the command of govern ment, that all its citizens shall contribute to its support, repugnant to, or forbidden by any ofth€ precepts just recUed, or of any others of the heavenly code ? For the vesting the legislature with authority to call upon all its subjects to perform militia duty, or pay a sum of money for an exemption, ought to be considered only as a mode of national defei.ce ; and will any one of this Convention say, that a national delencey when attacked by a public enemy? is unlawful ? Let them then who contend for the exemption on the ground of the demand being against conscience, point cut the 17 194 aw in th€ christian code which clearly prohibits, er means coun^ ter to the requisilidn, and he would give up his opposition and support their cause ; for he believed he felt as n.uch repugnance to a wilful violation o# his Master's couiinands, as any of then). Every Quaker and Baptist, indeed every disciple of Jesu^^ ought to act in the common affairs of life, and in all their inter- course^with the governments of this world under which they live, in the same manner as they have good reason to believe their King and Master would, were he in their particular situation. And fortunately we are not left in the daik on this subject. The general conduct of Jesus in his intercourse with society, as well as his laws and precepts, are for our instruction and di- rection in like ca^-es : and his disciples may safely regulate their intercourse with the existing governments, by the examples be has left them on record. The Judge said he hoped every member of the Convention would attend to the authorities he was about to cite, for in his '«nind they had great weight, and seemed to him conclusive on the subject in debate. Jt would be recollected, when Jesus, wiih his I'isciples, was returning from Galilee to Jerusalem, they entered into Caper- naum ; and they who received tribute came to Peter and asked him, if his ujaster paid tribute ? And he answered them, that he did ; and when Peter was come into the house, probably to get some money of Jesus ; but Jesus, knowing what he wanted, prevented hi? question, by demanding of l)im, of whom the kings- of the earth look custom or tribute ? of their own children, or of strangers ? Peter answered, of strangers : Then said Jesus un- to him, the children are iiee. Nevertheless, continued Jesus, lest we should offend them, go thou and cast an hook into iha sea, and the first fi^h that cometh, take it up, and on opening its mouth thou shalt find a piece of njonsy ; take il and give il un- to them for thee and me. Now, said tlie Judge, can there be a more direct authority ,as lawyers say when they cite precedents, than this is to the point in debate ? Here was denmnded of Jesus and his disciples, an unlawful tax, but rather than niakt any dispute about il, a n.ir- acle was wrought to getnioney to pay it. He conlihued that he did not see how the principle cf the authority can be avoid- ed, unless Ihuse who conterid for the amendment sliculd ?ay,that the tribute demanded of Jesus and his companions, was a tax laid 199 jy the Jews themselves towards the defraying of the expeosef: of the temple, and so being a lawful lax according to the law of Mosea, it was legally binding on Jesus and his disciples, thej being Jews, and the temple worship not \et being (ijlly abro- gated And if any member should take this ground to avoid the application of the authority, he was ready to reply and support the application But he must beg the attention of the Convention a few mo- ments longer, and he would produce another text, by way of au- thority, which he looked upon (ree from all objection whatever. It was from the same reporter, Saint Matthew, chap. 22. The Pharisees took counsel toijelher Iikjvv they might entangle Jesus in his talk, and so they sent out to him some of their own disci- ples, with the Herodians (the Judge observed it was probable these Herodians were among the leaders of a party who adher- ed to Herod their Ki ig, and might, on that account, be somewhat attached to the Roman government so long as it supported Her- od and their party) and they addressed Jesus by calling him Master, and, in words, at least, acknowledged that he was a teacher sent from God, and that he cared for no man. Tell us, said ihey, (what they thought ot great importance to the nation of the Jews) was it lawful or not to give tribute to Cesar ? And there can be no doubt, but they expecied he would answer, yea • or nay. if he had answered in the affirmative, then the Phnii- see's would have chaiged him with being a friend to the Romans; and an enemy to his own people the Jews ; and if he answered in the negative, then the Herodians would have faulted him as a disturber of the existing administration. But Jesus perceiving their wicked and fraudulent design, said to them ; shew me the tribute money ; and they brought him a penny — and he demand- ed of them whose image and superscription was on the coin? And they said, it was Cesar's ; then said be unto them, render unto Cesar tlie things that are Cesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. The Judge observed, as long as he had been conversant in courts of law, he did not recolieKt evtr to have met a case so completely proved by authority of precedents as the present case is by the two examples of Christ's conduct now cfuoted. He continued that it might be fairly inferred from the 5asl that Jesus did not look upon money, that is, the circulating coin of a nation, as a matter wi'hm the jurisdiction of his king^ dom, or as having any value set upon it by his laws. AH the . value it bad it received from the authority of the Emperor, th^^i 196 is the civil power over the kingdom of this world ; and whenev- er he or his officers should call for any portion of it, let it be hi whose hands it fijay, if the demand be made according to 'he ^"unerai regulations of the empire, it was the duty of the holder to ^ivfc it up ; and the paying of it would not be considered by Jesus himself as an action fvjrbidden by, or contrary to any of (he laws of his kingdom. — He desired the New Testament, wher« are recorded the laws of ihe kingdoir\ to which christians belong as disciples of Jesus Christ, and are often explained and enforc- ed by his Apostles, might be examined, and the law or precept pointeil out which is contravened by a holder ot Cesar's coim paying it to discharge a legal tax to a collector. This he said, be thou<^hl, could not be done. — To pay the tribute actually de- inanded of Peter and his Master at Capernaum, or the taxes fig- uratively alluded to as having the stamp of Cesar on the coins were simple actions necessary in civil society to support gov- eriiment on the part of those who demanded, as well as those who paid it, without any reference or implication whatever, whether Jesus was the Messiah or not ; neither was the money demanded with an intent that the payment should be consider- ed and taken advantage of as evidence of a denial of Christ be- fore D)en ; or as evidence that the man paying the tax was thereby to be considered as obeying man rather than God. So, in the present ca^ie, under a militia law where citizens are called upon to learn the military art by exercising and mancBUvring with arms in their hands a certain number of days in the year, or to pay a small sum of money to compensate those who do, and thereby to be exenopttd ihemselves, the sole object of the Legislature is to provide i'jr national de^t^nce, and the Judge jaidhe thought national defence, and consequently, a prepara- tion for it, could not, on any rational construction of scripture, be looked upon as an action forbid by the laws of Christ's kingdom. These and such governmental requisitions necessary for its support are altogether different from the requi- tiiions made by the Roman government through the empire, in after persecutions ; when christians were called upon to do some act, such as throwing an hand/ul of salt into afire on a heatfien attar, or offeriiig a sacrifice, or bowing to the image of the emperor ^ all which were demanded, and it was expected they were to be performed intentionally as plenary evidence of a denial of Christ before men ; and a willingness to obey man rather than God ; and which were prescribed as the only means of saving their live? and their worldly estate. On the foregoing principles 197 arid considerations, the Judge said, when he heard of a Quakery Baptists, Methodist, Unitarian or any other denomination object- ing to a tax, legally made, to support a minister, or to exempt from military duty, on ihe ground of conscience and as disciple$ of Jesus Christy he could not, after the most serious and deliber- ate investigation of the subject, but think they entertained very mistaken notions oi conscience ^ and that their views of religiotj and civil intercourse were very much confused. In this opin ion, however, he did not mean to call their sincerity in question. For he was perfectly satisfied, from philosophical considerations and history, that sincerity^ might, by habit, become associated wi(h error as well as with truth. The Judge then observed, he wished it to be expressly understood by the Convention, that he did not mean to oppose the exemption of Quakers, and all his observations and reasoning were intended to oppose the allow- anoe of the exemption on the ground o^ conscience , as had been contended for by some of several denominations — -And so far he thought both reason and scripture supported him. There was another ground on which he was clearly of opin- ion the sect of Quakers might claim an exemption ; which was that their society, as a sort of religious government peculiar to themselves, did render to the government of the State an equiv- alent for military duty, in that they always took care to have no poor people,Gr if they had any,the3^ maintained them themselves. He had never heard of a pauper Quaker being maintained by a town. He was inclined to think their christian principles had such an influence on their hearts as to lead them to provide for, aid and assist one another in all the arts of useful living so as to preclude what is commonly called pauperism. He said the qua- kers have always been known and distinguished as a body from all other people, as much as the followers of Christ were in the apostolic age ; and they are now equally distinguished as indi- viduals and a society. Wlien it is proved that a person is of that denomination, it follows of consequence that h.e is opposed to war ; (here is no need of his making a declaration ofhis^cr- sonal conscience , he believed it to be amalgamated in theircom- mon creed ; and this he believed could not be said of any other ?ecl and society in the Commonwealth. Though he believed the Moravians, or united brethren as they are called, had made it an article of their creed, not to fight. But he knew none of that sect in the State. He continued, that it was suggested lo him at the momrn^ 17* 198 ihat the Quakers educated their own children and had very lit- (\e or no benefit from the town schools, though they were gener- ally taxed for that purpose. He knew this to be the case in some large towns where there were many of that denomination living compactly, but he had not heard how it was in the country towns. He added, whenever any other sect of christians should be- come embodied and distinguished as the Quakers are, and af- ford the same evidence from their known principles and practice that war was their aversion and like them in consequence of their principles render an equivalent, he should be ready to vote Iheir exemption, as he novr was that of the Quakers. But it must not be slo hypocritical conscience ; or where individuals, here and there, sometimes of one denomination, sometimes of another, and about as often of no fixed state of religious worship whatever, start up, in times of a national war, or when taxes bear heavily on the community, and proclaim they cannot in con* science meet in a militia company, and their consciences tell them they ought not to pay an exemption tax, or a parochial tax, he was ready to acknowledge, he had very little faith in such time servijig consciences. And he said he could not re- frain from observing that these kinds oNender consciences, of late, seemed to increase, and extended to almost every requisition of Government. — ^He had lately known some to claim an exemp- tion from acting as jurors in capital trials, on the ground of con- ccieyitious scrvples ; and another who did not see his way clear (o take the oath or affirmation of a grand juror, merely because it was impressed on his mind that he could do more good than by spend mg his time that way. These kind of consciences, he !iaid, sluud in need of instruction. Cul Atherteii, proposed to exempt the militia froai.a poll Mr. iiall said, this would bear very unequal upon poor, rompared with rich towns. Il had been observed that it would opeiale unequally, because ihtre are mapy who are now forty hve years of a;;e, and have served out their timQ in the militia and will have to pay their proportion of a tax. This is true, but febali v^e, tur this reason, continue to do wrong ? Let us be the first Slate to pay the militia. 1 hope it will pass and so render the 1 urdons equal. Col. Moore, of Clipton, expressed himself in favor of eqiializ- ir:g the burdens of the people. The Convei^tjon adjourne.4 ■'V.;! out cemin^ to a dcci?iou» 199 AFTEILYOOM'.—The motion to strike out the 6lh section being still under consideration, Mr. Hall so varied his motion, as not to strike out, but add to the section, '« and the militia required by law to bear arms shall have a reasonable compen- sation for their services ;** and moved to have the vote on its acceptance taken by yeas and nays. This motion v^as negativ- ed. The requisite number not rising in favor. The main question was then put on accepting the aaoend- ment, and decided in the negative, 74 to 124. Col. Alherton then moved to strike out the section and substi- tute the following : — " No person of the age of eighteen and under the age of forty five years shall be exempted from the performance of duty in the militia, excepting the Justices of the Supreme Judicial Court, officers of the militia who have been superseded or honorably discharged, and such olher persons as are or may be exempted by the laws of the United States, un- less he shall pay an equivalent, which said equivalent shall be paid to such officers as a fund for clothing and equipping the mi- litia and apportioned in such manner as the Legislature of the State may direct." Col. Alherton. It will be perceived by this section, that aliho' it seems to purport that ceitain civil officers shall not be exempt- ed from military duty — yet, on a closer examination, it will be found to mea« only, that such persons shall not be exempted by reason of holding any civil office, but for any other reason, or without any reason the Legislature may at its pleasure create exemptions. This will not be defied to be the fair construc- tion of the section now before the Convention. Sir, I am alto- gether opposed to leaving this extensive power over such a nu- merous body of our fellow citizens in the hands of the Legisla- ture. I am opposed to it, because we have already felt the direful efiects of the unrestrained exercise of this power by the legislature of Massacliusetts— -It is our business to protect equal- ly the rights of all, and so to guard them by the Constitution that the Legislature cannot violate them without transcending their aulhorityo Sir, permit me to read the long list of exempt- tions which now exist in this State, and thst too under a con- stitution, which it is expressly declared in the bill of rights, ^* that each one shall give his personal services or pay an equiv- alent when necessary ;" — perhaps, not the precise words but their import. (He then read the list of exemptions.) I shall h^'m with those officers who enjoy salaries, Why« Sir, shouliJ 200 ^cytjot be enrolled in Ihe militia — why not perform military duty or pay an equivalent for the use and benefit of those who do ? It costs the poor and laboring class of the community who chiefly compose the militia, at least 12 dollars perann. for each man — Is any other class of citizens taxed, thus ? No,Sir — where then fs the justice of it? Why not equalize the burden ? We next come to a host of justices of Ihe peace, no less than 2500 ; enough Sir to form an army — and for physical strength and in- telligence, the fittest subjects in the State to fill the ranks of the militia — Sir, I would compel these men to perform military du* ty — I would so raise the character of the militia that it should be considered disgraceful not to be enrolled in it. I am aware, Sir, that strong da i.ns for exemption will be put in by that class of society called " Friends or Quakers'* — That argumenis will be produced in their favor on account of sup- porting their own schools and their own paupers. But, if we go on to exempt all those conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms, what will become of our defence ? I believe, Sir, that every man can take the oath or affirmation prescribed by this Constitution with as much propriety as can a Quaker, because all men are conscientiously scrupulous about taking the lives of others. Yet the state of society and the practices of the world require it in self defence and for the pres- ervation of our rights and liberties. It has been a fashionable practice, to scoff at the militia and to undervalue their services — Sir, they have done their full share towards exalting the character of their country — Shall I direct your attention to the events of the revolutionary war — Who but the militia, the poor despised and degraded militia, won our independence ? Who in the late war beat back the British at Baltimore ? Who were the conquerors at New-Or- leans? Who twice repulsed and finally der(??.ted the conquer- ors of Waterloo ? 1 answer the militia. The battle was scarce- ly ended, wlien our militia men were seen passing to the battle ground with retreshments lor the British wounded. and with that humanity which distinguishes while it exalts the character of the generous conqueror, brought the wounded, under a fire still kept up by the enemy, within our own lines. An instance of heroic gallantry unequalled in the days of ancient chivalry. Let us then protect the rights of this estimable class of our fellow-citizens — and let those rights be defined in this Constitu- tion. A* to axeniption^ it is our duty to prevent them, and to 20] .>iripel, ihe services of every citizen not exempted by laws of aie United States, or the payment of a just equivalent to be ap- propjiated to tlie purpose ol" uniforming and equipping the whole uiililia of the Stale. I'iiis amendment was lost, 101 to 123. Coi. Atherton gave notice that be should move for a reconsid- era lion. Rev. Mr. Francis now moved to amend by striking out th« section and inserting/* Persons whose religious sentiments for- bid their engagiwg in war may be exempted from military duly, but no person except the Jnsiices of the Supreme Judicial Court shall be exempted by reason of holding, or having held, any civ- il office under the State wiihuut paying an etjuivaient." Mr Eraery. Mr. President — with the most profound resf?ect for the sect c^Jled Q^uakers and a disposition to give thet^n all they are entitled to. 1 am entirely opposed to that part of tbe section which gc>^s to exempt them from paying an equivalent. 1 am opposed to i>iSir, on the ground ibat it is wbojiy decep- tive — holding out a hopa^vvhicb will certainly deceive them. As ft i5 expressed they mf/^/Tjeeueif^fkHl-froTT] military duty, if we say any thing let it be shalL But, Sir, 1 have thought it to be one of the first principles of our association, to require the •personal services of all or an equivalent. This is the principle wliich governs in other Slates. How is it in Pennsylvania where su many Quakers live ? All that is provided by their constitu- tion, so Lr 38 i know, is, that ail shall he required to bear arms ; and if any are exempted, they shall t^e required to pay an e* quivalent. If the (Quakers and Shakers are left to the Legislature, they will do them justice. Will this provision not point them out as obnoxious ? It was said, wiih a smile, that the Shakers contributed nothing to the increase of u^ankind and very prop- erly refuse to aid in their destruction. But would not the Qua- kers bring up an hereditary distinction, repugnant to the consti- tution ? It is not out of any thing unfriendly to the sect, that I would wish that nothing invidious shall be held up in their favor. J believe all (which ihey ask for) may be yielded in their fa- vor. If, on account of their excellence in agriculture, the arts, ke. they are entitled to consideration, 1 am disposed to make (hem proper allowance. I do not know the policy of the pro- vision, but ihe question has been presented to us on the ground ihat they pay an equivalent, but it is not so expressed. They aie excelleiit citia^ns, but not the only ones. Th«y have been 202 bardljr dealt with, and I should be gbd to contribute to relieve them from the obloquy which has been in the first settlement of the country heaped upon them. And I should be willing in some measure to compensate them for their benevolent ano pari of it. To rendtr it perfectly equal, every muii ot saiiable age should perform the duty, or pay an equivalent. It was in its nature a persondl .service. Each cjtizen, by peifurrning that service, coniribuied hi? full and just proportion and no more. He did not consider the ordinary iRilitia duty as a military ser- vice rendered the State. Our militia trainings vver« intended as a ichool in which to learn the niiitary art It is, by the consti- tution (»f our country, intencJed as part of the education of every American, that he should know the use of arms — that he should learn so much of the art of war, as should enable him to render efficient aid in defending his country, whenever his services should be wanted for that purpose. From this obligation he saw no reason for exempting civil officers on account of their holding offices. l( other duiies were required of them, they had also other compensations. But he would pxempt the Judges of the Supreme Court on account of their peculiar situation, as the Court of last resort. He would also t?ifcmp( Ministers ol the Gospel, a>nd leave it in the power of the Legislature to exempt those who were conscitntiously scrupulous of bearing arms. VViih respect to the equivalent and the disposition of it he thought it had belter be left to the Legislature. He agreed with the gentleman who proposed the ariiendment in his general views of the subject, but did not feel satisfied with his propo- sition in ail its parts. If such modifications, as he had suggested, should be made, he would then vote in favor of the amendment. For as all were interested in protection, all ought in gome way or other to contribute to the support of a system, the sole de- sign of which is to ensure that protection. Col. Moody hoped the motion would not prevail. It would- open a field for much litigation. Who, asked Col M. is to de- cide who are ministers of the Gospel ? Then all officers of the militia who are superseded are to be exempt : But who they are, is not precisely determined. And shall they be discharg- ed from all military duty or payment of an equivalent ? 1 did hope, Sir, that the report would pass as it is. 1 have had some- thing to do with the militia, and am disposed lo relieve their burdens which are very unequal. But lo say you shall exempt certain men from military duty is not necessary. To make them pay an equivalent would be sufficient. It was enough to say the Legislature may make exemptions. Why we should be afraid to leave it to them I do not know. They will do what 26*4 iL^j'oiJghi to (Jo. I hope we shall neither oblige the Legisla- ture to exempt any, per^jon? or to. pay arj cquivalea^i - • • Tbi^ niuiKip was luga ivf^d, 124 to 103 - jt: was then alt^i;- cd 5ir> as to include Qudkers and Shakeis,4T. and l« si, IJ^ io29. G«*n Chandler I did not intend to lake up a inuinent*iS time on this subject, but feel bound to make a lew remarks. It must be perceived that the burden borne by the miJiiia is the most unequal tax ihat ever was imposed on the community. You see a man not worth five hunclred dollars, with two sons who he i^ obliged to arm and equip, and who ?re obliged to do military duly — while another man worth fifty thousand dollars, is wholly exempted. Others have conscientious scruples; but I think, Sir, they ougbt not to be t^xempled without an equiva- lent. We ougit to look to the niilitia (or the defence of* the State. I will say, that it will not be improper to impose a tax ol'hve dollars on every one who is exempted, as an equivalent. So important is this subject, that I hope gentlemen will take it into serious consideration, and fix it in such a manner that the Legislature cannot exempt any portion of citizens from am equal *hare of the common burden. Gen. Chandler then moved the following amendment, to be added to the section : — '• And all persons borne on the rolls of any company of militia and doing military duiy therein, shall be exempted from their poll tax in the State and County taxes, during the time they shall so do military duty. This motion was lost, lOG to 124. Mr- Holmes moved to strike out ihe word '* shall*' and insert may^ which passed in the affirmative, 162 to 14. Section 6th then passed as amended. On motion of Mr. Holmes, the Convention voted to adjourn to 7 o'clock this evening, 124 to 96. EVENING, Article WW-^Literaturt; was taken int«' consideration. Mr. Stockbridge, of North Yarmouth, moved to amend this article by striking out the ProiJiso, which was — ^'Provided, That no donation, grant or endowment, shall at any time be made by the Legislature to any Literary Institution now es- tablished, unless at the time of making such endowment, ^/i# Governor and Council shall have the pozver of revising and tiega^ living the doings o/ the Trustees and Government of such InsiitU' tion, in the selection of its officers and the management cj iit 205 jhnds i'^ and insertinj* a substitute, vv^jich be read in his plac€, which went to provide that the Trustees, &c. might be removed for the misapplication of their funds. Mr. Hohnes. This provision does not go so far as the com- mon law. If the institution misapply their funds, you may by a writ of guo zQarranto^ issuing from ihe Supreme Court, re- move the Trustees and declare the funds forfeited to the Slate. This motion was negatived. Mr Shepley, of Saco, moved to strike out the words in ItaU ies, and insert the following : — '' The Legislature of the State shall have the right to grant any further powers to, alter, limit or restrain any of the powers vested in any such Literary In- stitution, as shall be judged necessary to promote the best in- terest thereof." I am opposed, said Mr. S. to the provision in this article, as reported. It would be extremely embarrassing to have two bo- dies of men controlling the same Institution — for the Governor and Council to be looking into their proceedings and negativ- ing the doings of the Trustees and Government. I think, Sir, the Legislature is the proper authority to secure the approfiria- tion of funds, granted for the purpose of education, to their proper objects, and that the stability of such institutions should not be shaken at the will of the Executive department I wish the Legislature to have the power to see the fund.- properly ap- plied; but having done that, let it be managed by those to whom it properly belongs. This amendment, said Mr. S. does not give so extensive a power, as manv States have provided for. I have known the Legislature to exercise the authority of annulling f covers grant- ed by charters, where the misconduct of trustet^s has produced a violation of the conditions of the grant. I do not wish to go so far. I would not have charters taken away or modified at the will and pleasure of the government of the State. My ob- ject is, to provide a security against, or a correction of abuses, and to restrain the governors of such Institutions from pervert- ins; their powers. Bui I would have them act independently in the periwrmance of their executive duties. Literary Institu- tions should be permanently established, in order to enable them to nrianage their concerns with that system which is so important to the attainment and perfection of {heir design. But Legisla- tures as well as Executive Officers are continually changing and can know nothing af the moile of study and discipline pursued IB 206 in Colleges, which if subjected to therr power would be liable to corresponding fluctuations in their plans, that would frustrate objects ofthfir estal>lishinent. Judge Driiia Mr President — 1 rise. Sir, in support of tb« amendment of the geutlein in from Saco (Mr Shepley ) Well fias the gentleman on loy right (Mr. Slockbridge) remarked that this subject creates no inconsiderable degiee of ejcitement. I rejoice that it does, for no subject has, or can come before this Convention of deeper interersi to the Stale ; whatever cun^titu- tion we may form and ser)d out to the people, however excel- lent it may be in other re^^pects, unletis it contains a'uple pro- visions for the education of our you'h, it will be materinlly de- ilcient. On the literature and literary insiitutions of a country or State, its happiness and prosperity greatly depend ; and not only its happiness and prosperity, but 1 may add, its respecta- bility and celebrity. — How often are the most merilorious ac- tions, the most brilliant achievements, buried in oblivion for the want of a recording pen? While on the other hand, we ofteo tlnJ tiie splendor of the hero, or the fame of the patriot, ob- ^cu'ed by the less brilliant, but more steady flame of glory, that surrounds him who records them. — Greece had her chieftains 2ind her bards ; the latter, in perpetuating the deeds of the /i;r/7jcr, gave to themselves a deathless fame. The mistress of the world had her Romuli and her Cesars, but the learning and eloquence of one of her citizens has given to Rome an imper- ishable glory, and to Cicero a name and memory that will be cheriajiied and revered, when the splendor of her mighty war- riors shall be lost in forgetfulness If these, then, are the fruits of literature, is it possible that we should be indifferent to a subject so inseparably connected with the vital interest of the community ? The reported article, as amended, makes ample provision for the establishment of the various institutions of learning,^ ne- cessary to the public welfare, and at the same time contains the salutary checks to prevent the abuse of the powers given la those, whose duty it shall be to manage and direct them. In a free government, resting on the virtue and intelligence of the people, the public has an important interei^t in the education of ihe youth; and I am gratified, that we are about to begin this great concern ay the h:uid and led in the paths of virtue arid learning to places of u?t'l'"u!nevs and honor; then, instead of remaining in degradati(in and wai»t, they might become the pillars of the State and the ornaments of society. In addition to the means of support of these schools derived from towns, it is anticipated that the wisdom of future legislators will, as soon as the finances of the State permit, grant permanent fund? for their constant maintenance, it will also be the bounden duty of legislators to endow and support acade- mies, colleges, and other seminaries of learning, as the public good may require — and also to shape the «i^eneral course of in- i-iruonjspered while under that wjluence; but when the government of them shall go into other bands, influenced by other iiiolives, mstead of a single eye to the public good, the object of inquiry among the Trustees (v/ho have the right to perpetuate themselves and successors in power) will not be, who will most benefit the if.stitutiun, but how shnll we best ?erve our own purposes by litling vacancies with our personal, political, or ecclesiaslical friends ? Establishments of this kind, in this section of the country, are yet in their infancy, and we ought to provide for the infirmities and decrepitude of age, as well as for the weakness of childhood and youth. The absolute and uncontrolled power given to Trustees to perpetuate them- selves and successors in office, without any check upon them> in some future time will be considered as obnoxious to the com- munity, and unfortunate to the institutions themselves; as they can never expect the pubiic cnunifi^^nce, without the public confidence. If the perpetuity of ofjSce is continued without a legislative control^ favoritism, instead of merit, will decide the claims of candidates, and the successful recommendation to office will be, political or religious sentiments, or family con- nections ; — and before the expiration of kalf a century, it will h^ found, that if our numerous Boards of Trestees are net con- 211 verseers^ The latter has a superintending power over all its concerns, and the ultimate control over its funds. There can- not a dollar of money be appropriated, or a vote pass, without the sanction of the board of Overseers. It has been my wish to establish such a connexion with \hat Institution, that some of the officers of the state government shall have seats in and consti- tute a majority in that board. This would give a sufficient con- trol ; a control which would carry into effect the objects of the institution, and support, instead of destroying it. And I would not grant them one acre of land, or give them a dollar in mon- ey, until this was done. But, Sir, what is the object of this a- mendment ? After they have spent the money and squander- ed the funds designed for the education of youih — then you will amend or alter the charter. Instead of this, I woukl take meas- ures to prevent abuses, or furnish a remedy less severe than that proposed. We should be jealous of them, and keep them frota perverting their powers. I would have a majority in one of the boards, that they may depend on the people for the approba- tion of their proceedings. Which is the best, sir, to give to the Legislature the power o{ extending^ altering, Inniting and re- stroinin^ the charter, or adnpt the proi)osition which I have of- fered to prevent the abuse ? The course which I have recom- mended is safe, both for the College and the people. 1 feel some attachment to the institution, and I feel a disposition to give it a helping hand ; and I would place a guard around them that they may nut squander their property. Of this I am cer- tain, nothing will be given, until the people have in some way the control over this institution. But I am not sure it will be safe to amend the article as reported. Now it is said, that the members of the government, whom i would wish to introduce into the board, would find it inconvenient to attend its meetings, and might neglect to attend to their duties as connected with it. I wish the Trustees to have a boaid at their back, to check and revise their proceedings ; and to remove this objection, 1 would have the annual meetings of the Overseers, held at the seat of government, at the time of the annual meeting ef the Legisla- ture, This 1 think will make- it safe for the State, and if not, I can devise no method of rendering it so. Mr. Holmes. Mr. President— The subject before us is sol- emn and important. To provide for the education of our youth, ** to rear the tender thought, and teach the young idea how to Fhoot," to take our children by the hand, and lead them on in 212 the paths of wisdom and virtue, the object should be pointed out, and the obligation impressed on the Legislature. And I congratulate this Convention on the opportunity they have for prescribing a duty to their legislators, which if properly perform- ed, will preserve our republican institutions. It is a duty taught us by our ancestors, and I trust we shall be so far impress- ed with its importance, as to transmit it to our children. It should be cherished as the apple of the eye. I confess I felt mortified at the provision in the act of separa^ tion imposing on us shackles jn relation to this subject. Sir, are we in leading strings ? Are we too ignorant even to be made sensible of the importance of knowledge ? And does Massa- chusetts there/ore, undertake to prescribe for us ? What will be the coBsequence of this provision ? To create a jealousy, and withdraw our patronaoe from Bowdoin College. I think the government of the College are aware-of it, and will be willing to give up the odious provison. We cannot confide in those who are afraid to place confidence in us. Ought there to be a literary institution in a State not subject to the control of the laws, nor subservient to the government that protects it ? Why should this institution, mora than any other, be beyond our reach ? It is dangerous to place too much confidence even in friends. Having acquired the power, they may de(y the au- thority from whence it was derived. All literary institutions should be placed on the same footing, and be governed by the same principles. To retain the right to enlarge, restrain, or regulate a charter by law, is safe and wise. The people aie not so fickle or unreasonable as not to be trusted with this discretion. Your constitution has provided sufficient checks upon the inconstancy or passions of the people. Should your popular branch be disposed to infringe these char- tered rights, the senate and the executive would hold them ia reasonable restraint. Why then should not we have the control ? This is not un- trodden ground. Look at the Constitution of Massachusetts, find witness their cautious reservations in the diOerenl charters to Harvard University. Look at the provisions even under the province laws. Look at the very act establishing Bowdoin Col- lege, which contains greater reservations than those contemplat- ed in this amendment. [Here Mr. H. read pnitr of several laws alluded to, and particularly the act establishing Bowdoin Col- lege.] SiPj I see no good reason why we should not exercise 209 Yerted into political junta or religious hierarchies, they will be twisted up into indissoluble knots of family connections, who will consult their own gratifical/on and interest, rather th^n the public good. If it is replied that the judicial authority will correct these abuses, the answer is, that these are evils which the judicial authority cannot remedy ; as it is only in ca'^es of a violation of the charter, that these Trustees will be amenabU to that tribunal, and as in these cases, their judgment would be formed upon decisions, received from a country where their literary institutions are differently founded and governed, and their objects in some respects different from ours : theirs being shaped and modelled to monarchical, and ours to a popular government ; and these decisions, inapplicable, uncertain and contradictory, would be unsafe guides to our Courts, in so im- portant a concern, and under circumstances so mutually dif- ferent ; besides a decision against the Trustees operates as a forfeiture of the chaiter, so that instead of correcting the injury done to the institution, it would go too far, and destroy the institution itself; this remedy, therefore, if obtamed, would be worse than the injury complained of, and of course would never be sought. By the highest judicial tribunal in our country it is decided that these literary institutions are independent of the government of the State, in which they are situated, and which has founded and endowed them, (whether this decision is pre- dicated upon, and better ada[)ted to the genius of the govern- ment of another country than our own, is now immaterial, as it is of binding force throughout the Union) and unless this Con- vention engrafts into the constitution a provision to the contrary, it will be of binding force here ; and then, Sir, may we not be called to witness the same scenes, which have recently trans- pired in an adjacent State? It may perhaps be thought im- possible among us, that a lesn majority of twelve Trustees, of one of the most respectable and useful colleges in the Union, should be found, who would assume to themselves personal rights in the funds and their management, and the exclusive control of all the college property ; refuse to submit to the laws :)nii government that protect it, and deny the authority of the State that gave it birth, and by whose munificence it now ex- ists ; and that this majority, in derogation of the sovereignty of the State, and in defiance to its laws, should be tolerated by the solemn decision of the highest judicial tribunal in the country. K all this appears now to be impossible here, so it price did la 210 the small but patriotic State of New-Hampshire, whose intelli- gent and independent citizens, refusing to submit to the arro- gance of the majority of the Trustees of their only college, commenced ihe work of reformation' in its management ; and although they were unsuccessful in the attempt, yet their dis- cussion of priBci()les has excited a spirit of inquiry throughout the nation, which will not be extinguished, 1 trust, till salutary reformations lake place in our literary institutions. If the di^cision above alluded to should be in force among us, and our seminaries of learning should thereby be rendered inde- peiident of, and without the control of our State government, from what suurce could they expect to derive funds ? And how could they succeed without them ? They would decay, like perishing plants in a barren soil, without moisture and fatness. To avoid the want of funds, on the one hand, and the abuse of them on the other, I hope we shall adopt the amendment, which places the visitatorial power of these institutions in the Legisla- ture, where it will be more permanent, and less liable to abuse than with the Executive, and more safe and satisfactory to the communily, and beneficial to the institutions themselves, than if they were under the exclusive control of their Trustees. Judge Parris. Mr. President — It is with diffidence I ap- proach this subject — But 1 must say that 1 do not agree with the gentleman from Saco, (Mr. Shepiey) as to the extent of the control which the State ought to have over our Literary Institu- tions. I am in favor of retaining some control over and con- r>exion with them ; but for what purpose ? To prevent abuses jn their management of their funds. If 1 understand the pur- port of this amendment, it is to exercise a control over their charters. Sir, I will stale my views of the government wl^ch ought lobe exercised over the College — for it is Bowdoin Col- lege which is the object of this provision, and we may as well name it, as keep it out of sight. 1 am willing you should control Academies and Schools which are endowed by the State. And no person would go further than myself in supporting them, and no one is more sensible of the policy ofgiving them all the en- eouragement in our power. I would go so far as to compel (be Legislature to endow them liberally, and then give them the power to prevent abuse?. But my views do not extend so far as to preserve the right to suspend their charters. We must be incorrect when we make the attempt. By the present charter ofBowduia Col Ie.c;e, there are two boards, the Trustees and O- 213 similar powers. We should never make any grant of mcner to any literary institution, unless we could in some way have a voice in its expenditure. The gentleman from Portland, (Mr. Parris) seems to be alarmed at legislative control, and is appre- hensive that our interferenee will be troublesome, and thai it might be better to confide the visitatorial power to the Gover- nor and Council — Sir, i prefer the mode prescribed by the amendment. If the College at Brunswick prefers to proceed on its present basis, it has its choice. i am for letting it alone, until it shall come forward and ask for aid, and if it will couple its request with a relinquishment of this odious provision, i would grant it. It is our duty and it will be our inclination to protect and foster this institution, as soon as it shall submit to cur authority and put itself under our protection. Should funds be granted, I would give it a large share in Benjamiji's mess. But if it throws off its allegiance and claims the protection and patronage of a foreign State, I would not yield it a cent. The gentleman from Fryeburg has alluded to the doctrine established by a late decision of the Supreme Court of the Uni- ted Slates. It goes to set up a hlerdry institution, beyond the reach or control of the laws of a State, Let gentlemen be want^ ed by this dangerous resull. Let them never tolerate any povrer but that of the Uniied States, wilhin their jurisdiction, that shah' be above their control. Tlie time may come when creeds nay be establiihed, seers created, and parties built up, dangerous and destructive to the safety of the State and the liberties of the people. Corporations may exist, with power to fill their vacancies and perpetuate their existence. Against such evils we ought now to erect an effectual barrier. I hope the motion will prevail The amendment was adopted by \51 to 18, and tke article passed as amended. ARTICLE IK. GENERAL PROP'ISIOJVS, Sect, 1. passed with an amendment in the form of the oatfc, and relating to qualifying the Governor and Counsellors, t Sect. 2. Gen. Wingate moved to insert Quarter-Master Geheral. Judge Thacher said, he was very little acquainted with mili- tary matters, and as he was against wars and fighting he troub- led himself as little about Ihem — ^biat he did aot wish to see me» 214 well qualified for legislation unnecessarily kept out of the Legis- Jature. So far as he understood the qualificalions and duties of a quarter-master general he did not see any inconipatibility in ihenj to the duties and situation of a legislator, or of a represen- tative — He was very much inclined lo the opinion that a man \Teil versed in military affairs, as he thou<;ht a quarter-master general ought to be, might carry much important information in- to a Legislature ; and such knowledge as they would always be desirous of obtaining so long as nations should be disposed to make war upon one another — He did not see how he could do any hurt with his official knowledge by being one of an hun- dred representatives, that he could not do as effectually by out door influence ^ though he was not a member of the Legislature. And in either case, it is going upon the supposition that he is a dishonest and unprincipled man ; which he was not disposed to believe would very oflen, if ever, be the case. Any body else might be suspected and distrusted as well as a quarter master general, though he had no office. For his part he observed, be hoped the new government would comcnence with great confi- dence in all the public fundienaries — He believed that "ta^as move likely to get honesty upright men, than a settled temper oj suspicion and distruit, ^ He said the people had put great confidence in the members of the Convention, and he did not see why mem- beis of the Conventton should suspect there was any more rea- son for guarding the people against electing certain officers in(o the Legislature as representatives, than there was against elect- ing themselves into the Convention — He was not sensible rf any feelings, on the occasion, leading him to propose or vo(e» for any article that was not calculated to produce the security and happiness of the people, and he verily believed the future Legislatures, if the people were left unfettered to make a choice, would not be inferior in either honesty and general knorvledge of legislation to the Convention themselves — let the Convention set as high an estimation on their m.oral and intellectual qualities as they thought just. He was against all exclusions, except judges of the supreme court, and his objection to their election was not founded on the common maxim so clearly laid down by Montesqui, that ike same man or body of men ixho make lazvs ought never to judge under dietn — But because they had labour enough to employ every moment of time, whether they wefO. setting on the bench, or acting at home a little while in vacation t« improve their minds to enable theoj to understand better, 215 and deeide quicker the causes that came hcfore them. The atlornc-}' general, boiicitfjr general, judges of the inferior court, disliict jui'ges, atlornies of dislrict.s and many other officer?, he th« u^hl. had been excluded more through the want ©fa correct understanding of the application of the f-Tegoing "maxim than on any salutary prinriple of legisilation ; he could wish to sec candidates stand on their character and good l)» havjour for the suffr-ges if the people — And he had rather vote ovt ihe rmhole clause of eocc fusion , then vote quarter-masters into it — He asked what iiurt could judges of probnte, or judges of the district courisofthe United States do in the Legislature ? None at all — hut these, and (he others before named, all possessed, in a great- er or less degrc e the -'^enj knowledge and iiiformutvM, usually most wanted in every Legislature — He wished to see the State of Maine exhibiting to the New Woild an example of lib- erality, (hat he was eoi fident, most of those people who, within forty years have made their consti(u(ions,will soon be willing to follow, and actually prefer to (heir present ones — He continued, that in looking over the corstituiions it really seemed to him in most of them, the best men for legislation zs; ere iinnecessarihj excluded — He asked why justices of the peace were not excluded ? There was as much ground to suspect iheij might be influenced in their legislative character by an undue expectation of gain wlicn acting as judges, as any of the officers excluded. And if there was amj cause of suspicion in eitiier case, he thought it the strongest against ihe common justices of peace. The amendment prevailed, and sect. 2d passed as amended. Sections 3, 4 and 5, passed without discussion. Sect. 6. Mr. Knight, of Falmouth, moved to add to the section — " No person who denies the Christian religion shall hold any office in the civil department of this State." He said, we require an oath of our civil officers, and wc ought to require a belief in the Christian religion. If we wish lo have the edifice lasting, which we are erecting, it should be tcunded on the broad basis of Christianity. Mr. Holmes said, it was inconsistent with the Bill of Rights. He also hoped the constitution would be founded on the broad basis of Christianity, and that no one would be elected into any office who did not believe in its benign precepts ; — but it was altering the system, which was not to require a religious test as a qualification for office. This motion was lost. 216 Sect. 6th then passed as anrvended, by intertrng the vvortls *' but not tixceeding five years." Col. Alherton gave notice Jje should call up his motion rela- tive to locating the seat of government to morrow at 3 o'clock. Ordered, that so much ol' the Constitution as has been ac- cepted by the Convention be commilted to (be revising com- mittee, and that Mr Kingsbeiy, ot Gardinerj and Judge Amts, of Bath, be added to ihat committee. Adjourned. TUESDAY, OCTOBER 26. Mr. Thrasher, of Cape-Elizabeth, moved that a committee be appointed to report to this Convention, such laws of Massa- chusetts as are repugnant to the Constitution of Maine ; ivhich motion was read and ordered to lie on the table. Judge Cony submitted the following resolution which was read and ordered to lie on the table. Resolved, That a com- mittee of l>e appoinfed to procure a suitable public seal, and ^}so a proper device for the arms of the State. Judge Green, Chairman of the Committee appointed to take intoconHderation the apportionment of Senators and Represen- tatives ioT the first Legislature, made a report, and statement of facts in relation ^hereto } which was submitted : The Committee find the whole number of inhabitants, accor- ding to the most correct estimate, which they have been able to make, to be as follows, viz. Frac- Ko of Sena iions Ex- Inhabitants. tors. zmnt- cess, the County of York, i in^ In 50,291 4 ! 0,765 Cuniberland. 66,043 4 : 5,013 Lincoln, 69.148 4 1,918 Kennebeck, 64.992 3 9,200 Ojiford, 33336 2 2,808 Somerset, 30,790 2 262 Kancock, 34,276 2 8,748 Penobscot, 19126 1 3,862 Washir>gton 13,076 1 2.188 And the opinion of the Committee upen the foregoing facts, is, that should the number of Senators be increased to twenty four ; justice requires that four Senators should be apportioned 217 Kenntbcck, that county having a fraction much Urger than any other ^according to the apporlioniuent iiiade by a former coinmitttie. Gen. Chandler. When this subject was taken up before, I expressed myself satisfied with the report of the commilllee on the constitution. This was founded on the report of a sub- committee, which was appointed to apportion Uie senators upun the several counties. But upon the facts slated in this report, I move that another senator be allowed to the county of Kenne- becti. Dr. Rose hoped the motion would not prevail, as the senate was then large enough. He thought it belter to strike out three and leave the number at twenty. This would leave a fraction in favor of York, and also fractions in favor of the small coun- ties. Mr. Dearborn said, by the constitution it is provided, that the senate shall consist of twenty three ; and I ?hould prefer to add one to the number , to taking one from the large counties. It appears by this report that Keniiebeck has 54,000, and York ha- 50,000, and the ioraier is surely as well entitled Co [oui sen- ators as the latter. Col. Lewis said, considering that the manner of getting at. the members in different counties was perfectly arbitrary and that the apportionment would continue only during the first Legisla- ture, he ho[)ed no alteration would be made. When the census is taken it will be proper to apportion the senate anew. . Judge Bridge observed that ihe object of the provision was only for the first Legislature, after which a new apportionment would lake place, the princi[)les of which he hoped would not be lost sight of The esiiuiate, said the Judge, is probably larger than will be found correct, but the proportion was prob- ably right. On this basis would it be right to give four sena- tors to York an(] but three to Kennebeck ? and taking the num- ber of delegates from each county, could there be any doubt, that Kennet)eck would have le.-s than its proportion ? He would not take one senator from York, but he would have the number twenty four and one additional one for Kennebeck. He doubt- ed not, however, but justice wc.uld be done. Judge Cony said he should not have risen, if the proposition had been to lake one away in.^tead of adding one to the senate ; 1 ut as it is to add one, he would remark, that he believed twen- 19 i 218 \y four was not too large a nuaiber and that the motion ought to prevail. C J. Moody said he did not rise to objeC t ) the propositi n but he could not accede to the statement that there is so large a frac- tion in Kennebeck. He thought it loo large by 3,500 ; but as it was only for the first Legislature, he could see no danger to assign one more senator to Kennebeck, and hoped the uiotion would prevail. Judge Green made some remarks in justification of the state- ment made by the commillee. We do not pretend to certainty, :vaid Ihe Judge, it was impossible to attain to it — it is rather lonjecture. But from the best data in our possession, we be- lieve it to be r.ufficienlly correct, and it appears to be so near an equality, that we were satisfied the relative proportion was Bot far from right, although not perfectly accurate. Yet we had f)o hesitancv in saying, that if the Convention take twenty four tlr the number of the senate, that "Kennebeck should have another. Indeed we could see no reason why York should have four and JCennebeck but three. Mr. Hohnessaid if i)0 other county asked for an increase, he ^houid be disposed to give another to Kennebeck, as it was not easy to reduce the number. He thought, however, the calcula- tion was incorrect — that there were not 300,000 inhabitants in the State, nor so many in the county of Somerset, from the num- ber of delegates. Gen. Chandler. The gentleman will perceive that I have not been very anxious as to Somerset or Kennebeck. But, sir, what reason is there, why York should have four senators and Kennebeck but three ? The gentleman from r^lfred has asked how can Somerset have so many inhabitants and so few dele- gates ; but the number ofdelegates in this case does not de- pend at all on the number of inhabitants. Certainly I shall not be satisfied wi'h York having four senators and Kennebeck but three. Mr. Preble. H the calculations made by the committee in regard to th© population of Maine and the several counties is correct, the apportionment of senators, as it now stands in the constitution, is monstrous. He hoped tb.e Convention would do equal and exoct justice to every section of the Slate — that \h(iy would allow to the population of each portion its equal representation according to their numbers in whatever part of our territory that population miglil h-ipjien to reside. He vvaa 219 \\illing genljeinen should have Iheir full number in the senate^ and he hoped tha( gentlemen would be willing that, with respect to the other branch of tlie Legislature, justice should be done \& other parts of tlie State. If, sir, said he, the population of York county is 50,291, and that of Kennebeck 54.992, on what pos- sible principle is York to \i^s'cjhur senators and Kennebeck but three ? But before they assigned an additional ,stnator to Ken- nebeck they ought to be satisfied that &\in had the requij-ite pop« niation. In point of territory thai county h comparatively small. At the time of the last census, 18 10, ihe population vvas dense, Since that period it was well known there has been little 01 no emigration into Maina. The tidecf population had set in anopjpositf direction, Maine instead of receiving acces- f^ions to her numbers from oilier Smtes had actually loj^t thousands tif her populaliion by their emigration to the west. jN'ay, more, (hiy loss of popula'iiH, this emigration to the west, had been principally from Lincoln and this very county of Kennebeck. Apply these facts to the popuialion as ascertained by the census in 1810. It then consisted of 32.564 iiihabiiants The calcu- lation of the committee now give it 64,992, making an iticrea'-e in liine years of 22,4x?8, or more than 76 per cent, in 10 years. Now did any njan in this Convention believe that Kennebeck had increased in tiiat proportion for the last nine years ? Did a single gewlleman from K»Mjne beck bc!ie\eit? It had I een sometimes jocosely said that gentlemen in some parts of Maine AY^re good at calculation ; but ihey must cerlainly yield the p:i\'j\ to the geiitleman from Kenne'oeck, (Juifge Brid_ comuiitfee frotn the county had estimated the population as he understood at about 45,000, and on that esti- mate the apportionment in the consiitution had been made*. WiJh that estimate he wassaii.-fjed th.)Uij;h he believed it to be full as large as the actud census of 1820 would be (bund to justify. Even this he thought was giving full credit to the in- ternal resources and prolific powers of that very respectable ^^ection of the State. Tiiere was one other consideration to which he would call \he attention of the Convention tending to show as he believed Ihe erroneous nature of the reported estimate of the committee. A new town where tlie population is very small may by a very small en)igration dDuhJe its p(^[)ulation. The satne may be trtju 220 of a county or a Slate where the territory is extended and the populition small. Such he had no dou!)t had been the case in the new counties of Somerset and Penobscot. Bnt it was Car otherwise In towns and counties where the population vvas al- ready lari^eand res})f"ctah!e in f)«int of number, as he contended ^^ as the case in Kenneheck. Her population though s})rcad ' ver her whole tt^rrilory was comparatively dense. She lost ma- ny of her inhabitants by emigration and the late war. fler in- crease had been for the last nine years the natural increase of her people. Yet this Convention was called upon to believe that m Iho?*^ nine y^itrs febo hfid jncreascd ffum 32,064 to M,902. For bh pari he mm\ require, in order to believe It, same other evidence that fanciful Rtatementi on paper. In j'ubnriitiing the remark?, be had not done go with a wUh io induce the Convention to refuse another senator to Kenncbeck, if she was justly entitled to an additional one, He would be among the last to do her wrong, if gentlemen would satisfy him that ghe had the requisite population be would most cheer- fully vote for the proposed amendment. Mr, Dearborn rrmde some remarks to shew that the estimate was correct Af> respects Kennebeck. Mr, Holmes. I did not believe we should get along without the *' Brunswick Arithmetic/* I think the people of Kennel eck '^re very ^ood M calculation, but I think no ©tber gentleman could make such calculations as we have just hearth, and I now vise to give due credit to thegenlieman who represents a pnri of the county of Cumberland. JVJr. Tbacber, of Saco, said he tho*«ght, that unless the calcn- IrUiru) could be shewn to be incorrect, llie Convention out;ht to accept the nport and give one more senator to Kennebeck. Judge Tbacherth(^ught there could not be 54,000 inhabitants in Kennebeck. Yotk had not so mar.y votes because they did not turn out, as they did iu other conniii;?, where they were ac- tuated by stronger motives. As in Portland and vicinity, ma- ny voted for separation who would have voted against it, but from the expectation of its becoming the metropolis. There have been many erni;i;ratioiis from the territory and he did not think there was 50,000 in Kennebeck, and did not know there were so many iii York. I\lr. Dane, of Well', made some remarks on the mode in which the committee obtained the estimate. We were satisfied, said Mr. D. tout we bad not 350,000 inhabitants ; probably 221 307,000 was as correct as any that can be made. He did not rise to oppose Kennebeck having another senator, but he would observe that we cannot have so many Senators when a new census is taken. Mr. Jarvis, of Surry, said the Eastern members have not taken up the time of the Convention — they take what you give them ; but they will not be contented, ifyou give another sena- tor to Kennebeck. As it is^ they have 64,000 inhabitants and three senators. Penobscot and Hancock contain 53,000, and have three senators. Hancock, Penobscot and Washington have 66,000, and have four. They have half of the territory of the State, and will have no more senators than Kennebeck. Will this be justice ? No one can say it. If, as a favor you give one to Kennebeck, I demand one for the eastern section as an act ofjusttce. Judge Bridge said, he should not rise again if the basis was understood. They did suppose the population of Maine a- mounted to the statement on paper. It was obtained by taking the supposed increase, from 1810 to 1820. This will not hold good, and no matter whether it does or not, provided the same proportion is given to each county. He thought the population less than 300,000. He had made the valuation which be thought correct, for Kennebeck, by taking the increase lor two periods, and making allowance for their falling short. Fie thought the migration was not much. The increase of Kenne- beck is not larger than has taken place. Somerset would more than double in 1820. Kenfiebeck had more than doubled in two years. And, said the Judge, there cannot be a doubt but that county has 50,000 inhabitants, and is entitled to four sena- tors. The vote to add one Senator was carried, 125 to 106. ^ Mr. Dearborn moved that the additional Senator be given to Kennebeck. It was then Resolved, That an additional Senator be added, so as that the whole number of Senators which may be elected, be increased to twenty-four ; that this additional Senator be placed to the county of Kennebeck, and that the report be so lar amended, as that the county of Kennebeck may be entitled to send four Senators to the first Legislature, Which resolve was read and passed. Mr. Johnson, of Belfast, moved that an additional Senator be ^'Jded to the count v ol Hancock. J 9-^ 222 Mr. Abbot, of Castine, took another view of the subject. He said, iT ^'ou divide Maine into three districts, it will appear that 12,000 inhabitants give one Seualor to York ; 14,000 to other counties, and to us there is one only for 16,000 ; as if Penob- scot and Hancock are added together, ihey have 53^000; whereas York has but 50,000. It is of some importance, not only that the counties should be equally represented, but that the different sections of the State should have their due weight. Take Hancock, Penobscot and Washington together, and they would be as fairly entitled to five Senators, as the other counties to their proportion. As to the numbers taken by the Commit- tee as the basis of their estimate, it will appear that the lower counties have not their proper weight, and that Penobscot should have the additional Senator. Mr. Moody, of Hallowell, wished to hear the opinion of the Commillee, whether Penobscot bad increased beyond their es- timate. Mr. Holmes said, he was of the same opinion he had been be- fore. If we begin to raise the number, it will only open the way for a further increase ; and he thought it better to dimin- ish. Mr. Johnson then withdrew his motion ; and Mr. Hulmes moved to reconsider the former votes assigning the number of Senators to be elected to the first Legislature, and to adopt the apportionment as in the Constitution, making the whole num- ber of Senators for the first Legislature, twenty. Dr. Rose hoped the raotior) would prevail, for that by this a- mendment, every old county would have a fraction against it, and the new counties in their favor. This amendment passed unanimously. Mr. Dearborn then moved to amend Article 4, part Sd, sec- tions Iht and 2d, by striking out (he word *' three,'* to confcim to that amendment. Mr. Preble suggested vvhetaer three had not betler be relain- ' ed in the .^^econd section, or if stricken out, i hat /re should be inserted in iu room. If the number was fixed at tvi'enty, it would be impossible to jsjTpoition the Scnatois upon the counties according \o iheir population. Some discretion or latitude ought to be allowed to the Legislature. There would be fractions, and large fractions, unless the Legislature should disregard coun- ty lines. But if some little lati-tude as lo the number of Sena- tors were allowed, the Legislature would adopt tliat number within the presciibtd limits, which would admit of the mo^teX' 223 act apportionment upon the counties. To that course he could see no objection. He was only giving to Xhe first Legislaturt. the same power given by the Constitution to subsequent legisla- tures. ARTICLE xv-^SCHEDULE. Section 1st. Mr. Dane, of Wells, moved to amend by in- serting after the word '' next," in the second line, these words — '' the choice of Counsellors, Secretary and Treasurer, on the first Wednesday of January annually, shall not be made until the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and twenty-two ;" and further to amend said section in the fourth line, by inserting after the word *' time," these words — *« the choice of Counsel- lors, Secretary and Treasurer shall be made on the last Wed- nesday of May next," \s\iich motions passed in the affirmative. Mr. Holmes made some remarks as to the reasons which in- iluenced the committee in fixing on the time of the first meeting, and continuance of the first Legislature. If the meeiing for the choice of Governor, ^c, was in April, there would not tee tim.e for return of votes, <^c. if the first meeting was earlier than the last Wednesday in May. And as the Legislature of Massa- chusetts will then be in session, and there will be commission- ers to be appointed, and other things to be transacted between the two bodies, it would be best for our's to meet at the same time. As to the continuance of the first Legislature, it will be proper to extend if, otherwise it would expire in January, 182 1 ; and as there will be much business for them to do, in organizing the new government, 4^c. which would not be a very thankful task, and as it is not probable the members will be re-elected, it was thought best to give them a longer time than usual. Judges Thacher and Dana made some remarks in favor and against an earlier time. On motion of Mr. Dearborn, the Convention resolved them- selves into a committee of the whole, upon the subject of repre- sentation in the House of Representatives — Hon. Judge Thach- er in the chair. A conversation arose on Ihe mode of proceeding ; after which Mr. Dearborn said he believed the committee were desirous of a substitute being offered, and proposed that any might be of- fered, in order that they might all be considered together. Among those which were offered was the following, by Gen, WiHgate, to commence after the 5th line, 2d section, axtr 4th,, .p. 1st :■— 224 *est good ot the vyhole ; yet I would call on geiitlemen to judge Weil what they are about lo do, before they adopt ihis complex proposition. The one reported they have had several days in their hands, of that they can better judge. Gen. Wmgate said, it was impossible to fix on any number v.'hich ^.hall tjegin, as it is apportioned on the counties. No number can be named, as it will be different in different coun- ties. i\nd why should it be necessary ? it is not deceptive, but may be easily understood and apportioned on the several towns, when the apportionment on ihe counties is made. Judge Bridge. I rise, sir, to state what is my impression of the effect of the proposition. Suppose the number should be fixed at 1500 for the first Representative ; for the second 2250 more will be required, if I understand it. I am told the whole effect will be, to take one small town and put it to a large one. But at no distant time the effect will be very different. When the population is so large that a town can send six or seven, let us see what will be the effect. To send seven, 15,000 only will be required ; but by the report, 31,600. When we arrive at that period, the effect wiil be to give a Representative by towns, to one or two only. This effect I am unwilling to submit to, and prefer adhering to the report of the committee. Mr. Whitman said he was unwilling to be troublesome to the Convention by offering his ideas for consideration. But the subject (said he) has taken a new turn. It would seem we are 228 about to drop the consideration of the report, and look for an entire new scheme. The more we examine (he article a? re- ported, the more objections shall we find to it. It speaks of an increasing rain— .Whoever heard of i.n increasing or decreasiiig ratio 2 A ratio is a rule of proportion — a regular progression. An increasing rule of proportion or an increasing regular pro- gression would be perfect jargon. We here n)ay know what we me^n — because it has been fully explained by those who framed the article. But can we be sure that our meaning will be understood elsewhere ? Will posterity, from the phraseolo- gy used be able to comprehend it ? All, but we who are heie assembled, in order to understand our meaning will have re- source to the meaning of the language used. We say that a town having 1500 inhabitants shall have one Representative — that a town having 4000 inhabitants shall have two — and one having 7500 inhabitants shall have three — and so on in this in- creasing ratio, for every additional Representative. Now, Sir, let me ask, in what way will every person out of this body go to work to ascertain what number shall give the fourth, fifth, &c. They will gee that a raiio is spoken of, and that, -true it is, it is called an *' increasing" ratio — but the word " increasing,'' making it nonsense, ivill be rejected. A ratio then in to be sought for. The numbers given bear no proportion to each other. This then cannot be the ratio spoken of. To find what number Is to give ihe fourth Representative, recourse must be had to the rule of three, properly called the rule of proportion. They will say, as 1500 is to 4000, so is 7500 to the number which will give tlie fourth Representative ; the product of which will be 20,000. This, then, is to be the number which will en- title any town to the fourth representative. According to the explanation, however, given by gentlemen here, it seems that 12,000 is to give the fourth. But this would never be discov- ered from the langurige u^ed. There are many other parts of this article that are equally uninlelligil^U*. By this article as reported, it seems mat the representatives are to be apportio!>ed once in five or ten years, according to population, in the first instance, among the several counties ; and next, among the several towns in each county, according to a certain rule. Each town having a certain number of inhabit- • The phraseology of this article was essentially altered by the •^vising: committee, after the making of the foregoing remarks. 229 ants, say 1500, is to have one, and no more until its populatioM amounts to 4000 ; and no large town is ever to have naore than seven. Now, sir, let us suppose a case, which will happen in less than thirty years. The town of Portland, within that time, will have as many inhabitants as Boston now has. The county in which it is situated, cannot then remain, comprisiftg the same extent of country it now does. The town, of" itself, will, as Boston now does, furnish business enough to keep the courts al- most continually in session. It must then be as Bo?ton now is, a county by it-^elf; or with but very few tov^ns united with it. Yet your representation must, in the first instance, be appor- tioned upon counties, according to population. The county in wh'ch Portland may be situated, will of your 200 Repre- sentatives, be entitled to at least twenty. Then, when you come to apportion them among the towns, Portland must have not exceeding seven. The two o«* three small towns, (if any) which may be united with it, though their population in the ag- gregate might not exceed two or three thousand, would have a right to elect the other thirteen. The same will be the case wiih Balh, Hallowell, and some towns on the Penobscot ; and, in time, many others. But suppose Portland should be necessarily a county by it- self; then, according to population, as a county, it might be en- titled to twenty Representatives ; and yet, being but a single town, it could send but seven. And suppose two towns, ot'a population of ten or fifteen hundred each, were united with it, in the same county, tliese two towns would be eniitled to send the remaining thirteen I{epresentaiives. I should hope, sir, that we were making a Constitution to last, at least, for one generation. Indeed, sir, we ought to look further ahead ; and calculate that we are making a Constitution to last for many generations, it is not enough for us to consult merely our present convenience. A temporary policy is not the policy for Constitution makers. No man can tell what will be the tale of his posterity, or where they will be found. They will be as likely to be found in large towns as in small ones ; in sea-ports as in the countrj . Let me caution gentlemen against an unreasonable jealousy of the large towns. It may serve a present purpose ; but no morlai can predict how soon be or his children may become the victims of such jealousy. The citi- zens of the large towns are men, and have their rights equally with those of small towns. To deprive them of the enjoyment 20 2ao of which is tyranny. In proportiofl as Ihey are deprived of an equal representation, they, are slaves. Why is it that you will require twice, nay, five linoes the number in one instance, to e- lecta Representative, that you would in another ? It is, you say, because they are within the limits of one town. Is this a sufficient reason for disfranchising any portion of our fellow cit- izens ? You might as well form an artificial district of a large extent ; and say to it, because thus large, you shall be depriv- ed of your equal rights. Large towns are but districts, happen- ing, by accident, to be large ; and, certainly, it cannot, ration- ally, make any difference as to the rights of individuals, wheth- er they are placed in large districts by design or by accident. All our embarrassments on this subject, originate in a depar- ture from the only proper course. Had we adopted a system of districtirig in the first instance no man v\ou]d have thought that there could have been any reason for putting more into one district than into another. Our work would ihen have been sim- ple. Equal right* would have been regarded. But having now aelernjined on a different course, we ought, at least, to try to render its operation equal and fair. If every town, having 1500, is to be enlitled to one Representative, and cannot liave a sec- ond, but upon an additional number, it will be manifest, that a large proportion of towns, having the requisite number, will have large fractions over tliat number, and yet short of the num- ber requi'ite for the second. Hei.ce there will be in such towns a loss of what is properly termed fractions. To render the representation equal therefore, when a second Representative is to be added, it is admitted a greater additional number than that which gave the first should be requisite. The average a- mount of such fractions should be taken, and added to the num- ber which gave the first ; and this should entitle a town to the second. It wds upon this principle that the representation in Massachuselts wns formed. One hundred and 4^'ty polls were to give the first Represenl^^tive. It was considered that the av- erage of the fractions lost in towns which had the recjuisite num- ber to entitle them to orie, and not enough to eritille them to a second, would be equal to fifty per cent. They therefore de- termined that, for every additional 150 polls, i«'ilh 50 per cen- tum added thereto, an additional Representative should be giv- en. Hence it is that 225 additional polls, for every additional Representative, is required. It would, therefore, be correct to require, in our ajiportionment, l!aat for a second, and every ad- 231 ditional Representative, an additional number, equal to that which gave the tirst Representative, with fifty per centum ad- ded thereto, should he requisite. The proposition of the gentleman from Bath (Gen. Wingate) is predicated upon this principle if» part, it will therefore be preferable to the article as reported, it contains however the provision, that no town shall ever have more than seven Repre- sentatives, which ought to be expunged. As it is, however, I must vote for it, as being a choice of evils. 1 beg gentlemen to consider that we, the people, shall, after we have tormed this constitution, still have an election to adopt it or not ; and that, if we should not adopt it, we shall have a constitution, which was made at a time, when the people of this country were alive to a flense of justice, and of equal rights — a constitution which was made by our best and wisest patriots — by an Adams, a Hancock, and a Bowdoin. In that instrument a sacred regard was had to our equality of representation to the utmost practicable degree. If we intend the people shall give the preference to the constitution we may prepare, we must take care that it shall be worthy of their preference : without which it will be labor lost. We have already determined to apportion the Senate according to population, and not according to valuation. By this tlie counties of York and Cumberlpnd will lose two, out of twenty-three Senators ; which will be gain- ed by other parts of the Stale ; thereby making a difference of four, in twenty three, against those counties. Apportioning the Senate according to valuation, as would be the case should we have the constitution of Massachusetts, would give the counties of York, Cumberland and Oxford, a majority in that body* Making the apportionment according to population, and it will be otherv\i.-e. H<:re are powerful motives furnished to induce the?e counties to vote against liiis constitution. Again — the towns which are to be classed in order to be entitled to repre senlation, and which would under the constitution of Massachu- setts be entitled to a Representative, without lieing classed, would, perhaps, prefer the latter. And again — the large towns, which are to be deprived of an equal representation, will be strongly impelled to give their votes so as to secure the enjoy- ment of their equal rights — And I may be permitted to nouce, as being likely to be added to the number of those who would oppose your constitution, all those who have been opposed to a!] our attempts at separation. We mu^t not flatter ourselv«;4J> 232 that ihey will be much in love wilh the work oi'our bands, it behoves us, then, to make a constitution unexceptionable in most, if not all, of these particulars. — We must take care not to array a majority of the people against it. We must in this, as in every thing else, expect them to he guided by a view solely to their interests. I have, said Mr. W. an anxiety to make a conslitution that shall confound gainsay ers. Every thing evil has been predrcted by the opponents of separation. They have alleged again and again, that a good constitution was not to be expected at our hands. 1 would it were possible we might teach them that ihey are false prophets. I have, Sir, a pride to be gratified, as I have ever been in favor of the independence of Maine, and ha^e ever insisted on our ability for self government. I should re- gret extremely to be unable to vote tor the constitution which \ve may form. Mr. Holmes took an extensive view of the subject, of which the following is an imperfect sketch. He said he bnd observed the course of the investigation which this subject had taken, and bad not seen that unanimity, and disposition to accommodate and yield opinions, which seemed necessary in order to agree upon a plan which should be acceptable- He had looked for argument instead of splend/d declamation and impaj^i^ioned elo- quence. We ought not, said Mr. H. to be afraid of the many combinations which it is said will be raised to break down this constitution. I will lay open this proposition and that of the comraiitee, and see if the srf)ali towns are disposed to combine k> deprive the large towns of tbt-ir rij;hls. I understand the proposition to be this — that the firsrt House of Representatives shall not exceed one hundred and fifty, divided according to population. Mr. H. then staled his vitiws of its operation, and that by it, the large towns would obtain a larger representation, and the small ones less than by the report. If by the latter, the sacrifice of the large towns was extravagant, he proposed a partial remedy. He then stated the proposition, which was afterwards adopted instead of the report, which required 4000 inhabitants to entitle a town to two Representatives, and 7500 for three. He then went on to show the errors in the argu- ments on the other side, and to defend the report. The com- mittee, said he, had in view the prevention of fraud — the con- ciliation of local feelingji and general inteiests. It was difficult to make people give up their corporate rights, from which ib^y derive many benefits. You must, then, make a constitution not onlj for their interests, but their prejudices — You must preserve their corporate rig^bts. The same principle in Massachusetts had produced evils, to prevent which we must begin with a larger number for the first Representative. It is said small towns will combine ^igainst the large towns. They will not, said Mr. H. unless they are oppressed. If we look through Maine we shall see that the towns are a specimen of the men a mixture of small and great. Why is it necessary to take such care of the rich man? of rich and large towns ? He ridi- culed the idea of small towns combining. The farmers do not combine. Agriculture is the favorite employment of heaven. Sir, when the Almighty had created the world, he did not say we have made an orator, or a merchant, or a lawyer; but we have made a man to till the earth. Sir, this employment al- ways was the school of virtue — is there any danger that they will combine ? No, Sir, the judiciary, the executive officers, the merchants — do no^ these men have their influence, and the power to explain their rights ? The people in the country are struck with the blaze of their eloquence. But if there is dan- ger, to what does it amount ? You will see the large towns have an advantage over the middling or>es- Thus, Berwick, Shap- leigh and Lebanon have three Representatives, and so has Portland — and so it is in Boston. While Boston sends forty- five, towns in the country with as many inhabitants can send but thirty. It is only to compensate for fractions that the in- crease is required. But suppose a combination of small towns against large towns. The same was said of large States, but have you suffered any cabals or combinations ? No. But sup- pose they do, there is a check in the Senate. Suppose the large towns cannot put it down, you have the voice of the peo- ple fully expressed in the Senate ; you will have the men of properly and learning in the Senate. Is there danger that they will be put down by this caballing ? but if not, the corporations will check them. It is in this respect like the constitution of the United States. But in addition to this you will have a Governor chosen by all the people ; and suppose the Legisla- ture to be corrupt, the Governor checks them and preserves the rights of the people. Mr. Holmes said, as the usual hour of adjournment had ar- rived, he would give the committee an opportunity to rise be- fore he finished his speech. 20* 234 The comiDittee then rose, reported piogress, and had leavie to sit again, arad the Convention Adjourned. EVENING, — The Convention again resolved themselves into a committee of the whole, upon the subject of representa- tion in tl>e House of Representatives. Mr. Holmes now resumed. He said he was not disposed much longer to occupy the attention of the committee. He did not intend to excite their passions and feelings, and hoped they would not be deluded by the eloquence of gentlemen. Sir, said Mr. H. there can be no doubt as to the effect of the amend- ment. It is certain that it introduces a new principle It is certain mine does riot introduce a new principle — it is only a modification of that report. The one is an increase for the second Representative and not for others, the other is to increase progressively. The gentleman from Portland gave us in glowing colors the situation of his tosvn ; but forgot to state that it would have forty Representatives by this mode — for it is unjust to limit the num- ber if you have the same increase after the second. If this is the case there will be complaints on the other side. Mr. Jef- ferson compared great towns to great sores : although they have great talents, Uiey have also great evils. But, Sir, it is from a source of impurity which makes the talents more resplendent. Mr. Holmes again argued against the supposed danger of a combination amongst small and poor towns — that the Senate was founded upon populaiion, and would be a barrier against popular phrensy and delusion. The more you look at it, said he, the more you will admire it. in one branch you preserve the corporate rights, in the other the county is represented. In the Senate, so venerable, will be found a sure guard for the wealthy. Mr. H. then appealed to other Slates. Mr. Jeffer- son objected to the Federal Constitution because the two branch- c^s did not represent different interests, in Massachusetts, one branch represents the wealth; but there is no contrariety of interests. But here you have different interests— -one that of corporate rights, the other popular interests ; and the Governor will be a check on both. Here you have a well balanced gov- ernment. Look at Connecticut — there each town was entitled io one, and none more than two Representatives. Was there any complaint, if so, why did they not alter it? Because it was en evil but in name. Vermont is a child of Connecticut. We 235 aeed not go out of New-England to see that it has produced no evil. Every one has regard to local rights. Even in the United States constitution there is a provision that no State but shall have one. Go to Georgia whose constitution has been admired as a model ; and in Pennsylvania there is one at least in each county. In North and South Carolina both have the sanje principle of local though unequal interests. And you will agree with me that we are to have some regard to local repretenta- tion, and of course some inequality. But I believe we have other checks against the danger. We have provided that the people should be entrusted with our Lit- erary Institutions. We intend to take the literature of the State under our liberal protection, and such light will be diffus- ed among the people that with all these grounds will there be any oppression in your government ? But we have another check to the evil — we have the benign influence of our holy re- ligion, which will always check combining to oppress. With these checks, need we fear that the people will unite for a di- vision of propert}' ? No, Sir, wealth has its influence, and will have. Another check against the injury of great towns is, the small towns never have their due weight. They never com- bine — their local situation forbids it. Merchants call upon the Legislature for a Bank — in the country we do nothing. The merchants complained of commercial restrictions — we com- plained of nothing. Sir, I do not think there is any danger. I hope that the proposition before us will not obtain — but 1 hope the one I hint- ed at will. 1 would preserve the progressive increase, instead of a mean increase. This is only to balance the fractions in the counties. It is not right that second or third rate towhs should lose fractions, and a large town lose none, as Boston in Massachusetts. If this is not dan2;erous, I do not know what is. Sir, 1 have seen the great speculators carrying measures through the Legislature which a plain farmer would not dare to think of. There is danger of the rich men. Look at your county, capa- ble of a large population made to pour in their wealth into the large towns. The real danger is to the agricultural interests. Mr. Vance said, we have had so many propositions to the Convention, that some gentlemen seem to be bewildered by them. But, said Mr. V. neither the light nor the Egyptian darkness which has been thrown upon this subject, has blinded me, I left the waters of St. Croix with rny own impressioo, 236 and that of my neighbors, that (here tvas but one principle to govern us—that of justice and equal rights. 1 have fought and bled for this principle, and I hope it will never be relinquished by any portion of the American people. I have heard nothing that has moved me from the ground 1 first took. If we are to have equal rights as the basis of our constitution, will any mem- ber rise and say that any one is to have his equal rights taken from him ? That equal justice would be done to all classes in the representation, was the general expectation, and that the num- ber would be limited. This is the principle we ought to adhere to, and to fiK the number from 73 to 100. Sir, is it difficult to do this ? I undertake to say it can be done. Let us divide our State according to numbers, and class the towns. Is there one who can say this is not just ? If there is, there is one who would take his equal rights from his neighbor. Let us not be frighten- ed at the manner of classes or districts. But we are told the large towns are rich and have disproportionate shares of influ- ence. If we class the towns, however, where is the man who will not be represented — one who cannot say he has an equal share in :he government ? I have not heard complaints from large towns so much as fiom the middling ones. I do not fear that the large towns will make laws to injure me, for the same laws must govern them. The gentleman from Portland, says the Constitution of Mas- sachusetts is just : but it did not do equal justice. Every town in the old part of the State has a Representative, but in the new towns, it takes 150 polls to entitle them to on€, and there are many such towns. And is this the Constitution we are to go back to ? Was this giving equal rights ? No, Sir. And as this did not give equal rights, I am opposed to it, and wish to have one that will secure them. This can be done only by dis- tricting. Has any one of the numerous plans given an equal representation ? Is there any one disposed to take the right from Portland and give it to negroes ? Now the gentleman from Alfred will bring forward a new proposition. But will this remedy the evil ? He says that Portland which has three Representatives, will be equally represented, because that there are three towns in York with an equal population which have only three. But will it help the gentleman, if he has lost an arm, to know that his neighbor has also lost one ? Let us take the Constitution which says all are equal, and see this corresponds to it. 237 ii we havf one hundred Representatives an«i every one haT« an equal voice, would any one oppose their bein^ paid out oi the public chest ? No, Sir, for ihey would then legislate for the whole. It might be said the lart;e towns vv< uid pay nine tenths of the lax. But would tnis be hard? The gentleman says the ricii go to the lari^e town??. This i< too true, and he might have said our produce, &c go to the towns. Would it not l)e right for a small part to go back, as some conipehaalion for their disadvantages ? I do not expect my views will he adopted, but these are my impression?, that no one scheme so unjust has been proposed. And unless we have one better, I will ot two evils take the least, and prefer to t.^ke the report. Mr. Baldwin, of Mercer, said, the subject of representation was attended with many difficulties vvhicli seemed insurmounta- ble. We have been, said Mr. B revising, arfiending, supply- ing, correcting, altering and rejecting ; and still the difficulty remains. The con&ti!iiti<»n of the State is, in many respects, like the ccmstitution of the human body, and if there is oppres- sion and inequality in the former it will produce disquietude and uneasiness, to remedy which more powerful remedies must be applied than cordials and opiates. We have been carefully guarding against districting, and yet like the old serpent, it has inainuaied itself ii; the specious form of county lines and restric-^ tive numbers, and we dare not make an efficient struggle to rid ourselves of it. I would by no means however tear down all. I would take the report of committee, disincumbered of county lines and restrictive numbers. Let the Convention agree upon a corporate representation, and 1 am willing to take any num- ber from one to two thousand for the first and proceed according to the progression in the report ; we then should have a consti- tution the best in the Union, and one that would inspire confi- dence and injure trairquillity. Mr. Baldwin went considerable length in exhibiting his views, and concluded by saying, if I had a voice like a trumpet, that would sound to the remotest corner of Maine, it should be heard in every fisherman's hut on the sea shore and islands, and every squatter's log-house in the beach wood settlements, from Passamaquoddy to the White Hills, or al least to their Representatives. Awake ye sleepers ! arouse from your stupor I assert your interest I put on the man ! and ensure to yourselves, your con- stituents aBd their posterity, peace and tranquillity. 238 Mr. Wilson, of Bingham, said, he thought there was no dan- ger of small towns rising up and crushing the large towns, as most of their inhabitants come from the large and old towns* He hoped the report of the committee would be accepted, un- less a better plan should be offered. He then proposed that there should be five Representatives for one Senator, to be paid out of the Treasury and distributed among the towns as conve- niently as may be. Mr. Preble. Mr. President — 1 will state facts. If we become satisfied with any proposition and unite on this subject, it would save, instead of wasting lime, to consider it. 1 find. Sir, that the overgrown and undue influence of Boston, has great weight on some minds, and they wish to make a provision that will pre- vent such an influence This is done already. By proportion- ing your Senate according to your population, you prevent the evil. Boston has the proportion ot fourteen to a hundred m the Senate. It is inconsequence of representation, that they have this influence. If it were apportioned on population, Boston would have but two members in the Senate. This is the way to keep down this influence — not by violating the fundamental principles of free government. By the provision in this section Portland can never be entitled to more than seven Representa- tives in 200 Although Portland may increase, the Slate will increase in a ten fold ratio. There is no danger, therefore, from large towns. Let us look at the principle of the report and see if it is founded on equality, or ir)justice. I am for go- ing as far in representing corporations, as we can. But take off the limitation and you give too great an influence to large towns. By this provision Portland has three Representatives ; but on principles of equality it would have eight. Is it strange that they should be uneasy at this inequality ? If Alfred has one, Portland should have eight — where is the justice and equal- ity of this ? As to the pretence, that men of lalents come tiom great towns only — we are not to be blinded by such arguments. A large town may be feebly represented ; it depends on the people of the town. In the county of York, the number to entitle a town to a Rep- resentative is much smaller than in Eastern Counties. This aris- es from this abominable principle of inequality. Take the proposition of the gentleman from Bath. This will assign 25 to Cumberland, then the inhabitants divided by 25, and if it give 2000, every town with this number may elect one, and every one with 3000 may elect two. 239 You have a simple way of getting the ratio — it is more plain and simple — more sound than the report. There is no princi- ple in it to say, there shall be one for 1500 inhabitants, and then to take an increasing ratio. Adopt this and it will not increase but thirty. You will heal all the evils, do away the injustice, and have the support of many men, who will otherwise be in opposition. Your Senate is predicated on population j — if it were on property, Portland would have one. The Senate is predicated on equality. I entreat the Convention to yield a little to the prejudices if you will. Adopt the proposition of the gentleman from Bath, and you will remove the difficnlties. There can be no danger from large towns — they will not increase in proportic.n to the country. 1 am told by the gentleman from Hallowell, that io five or ten years that town will have 7000 inhabitants, and there will be other large towns, and if we remove the limitation we shall have general satisfaction. The President ro?e and said, Mr. Chairman — I did not es- pect the question now before the committee would have been agitated on this floor. I did expect that we were met to estab- lish principles. \i v.e had confined ourselves to this, we should probably have been as unanimous, as we were in adopting the bill of rights. But where subjects of legislation come befoie us, local interests and feelings arise and interrupt that harmony and unanimity which it is so i nportant to preserve. In ordinary legislation, if mischief is done, it may be corrected ; but a con- stitution is not so susceptible of alteration or repeal. Now, sir, if we had proceeded to say that the representation should be fixed at 1000 inhabitants for the first, and two or three thou- sand for the second, and left it to the legislature to fix the exact number, then they would have altered it as circumstances re- quired If they had derided that this would give too large a Kumber, it might have been corrected I did think, sir, it would have been belter lel't to those who come after us, at least to es- tablish the details. Sir, the gentlemen who compose the committee are men of the first talents, and they have made a report which would be honorable to the State. Rut [ believe the proposition of my col- league is an improvement, and that there is an inequality in the system reported. In Boston, by the constitution of Massachu- setts, there is an inequality; a town with such a number of Rep- resentatives possesses more than its just weight. But though 240 there is an inequality In one bouse, Ihere is an inequality in the other, which balances it. And in our Conslilution, there is a perfect equality in the senate, every man has an equal right in acting. But in the house, there is an inequality, with which I think the towns will not be satisfied. 1 wish, sir, to have the constitution as perfect as we can make it ; that there should be no reasonable cause of complaint. And I think the large towns have a reasonable cause to complain. But the proposition of the gentleman from Bath is more equal, and is founded upon a basis on which we have long practised, and I think will be more satisfactory. The President then ex- plained his views of this pioposition, and his reasons for wish- ing it might be adopted. He said he was sorry to hear the ob- servations of gentlemen, which he thought went to organize a party in that part of the country. He thought there was no dis- position in the small towns to conribine against the large ones, and concluded by saying, if we are disposed to give up legisla- ting, and adopt the proposition, the legislature will be formed on such a plan as will be perfectly satisfactory to the ppO[)le. Col Moody. Mr, Chairman — 1 am not disposed to take up much lime at this late hour. I have sat with the greatest pa- tience to hear all the propositions that were offered, and 1 was in hopes swme one would have been brought forward which would be agreeable to a large majority. I had a favorite prop- osition of my own which I was disposed to give up if that were the case. But when I hear what is said, lam almost induced ttb 'relieve that it is best to adopt the proposition of the gentle- man (roni Baib, because I believe it to be the nearest to an equal representation, although I think I see evils in that. If I were permitted to stale the one which would bring justice to the line, 1 think it is to district the Slate. That is the only way of equalizing taxation and representation. I find gentle- men do not otject to cisssification if others are alsj classed. Misery loves company. They are willing to submit to incon- vefiiences provided others suffer the same inconveniences. The county of York is complained of. I am willing to have it dis- tricted as equally as can be. If we travel back and disliict the whole State, you have a system founded in justice and truth. You may then have taxation and representation go together. But I have despaired of Ibis, and thrrefcwe advocate the propo» silion before us, because 1 think it the nearest to an eq»ialily. 241 The vote was taken on adopting Gen. Wingatc's proposHionj and it was negatived, 88 to 64. 'J fap Hon. President then resumed the chair, and the Hon. Judge Thachcr reported, that the committee of the whole Con- vention had had under consideration the 2d and 3d sections of the 4th article of the constitution, relative to representation in the Hou-e of Representatives, and directed him to report the same wifbout amendment ; which report was accepted. Mr. Emery. Mr. President — [a sort of shuffliiii^ of feet was heard and a call from one or two quarters of the house for the question — It was nearly eleven o'clock in the evenins; ] Mr. E. proceeded to remark in a louder voice, that *' If he was to be silenced in thai assembly by such measures, he should submit. The President then said by no means could there be a desire in any gentleman to conduct with such incivility. Pray proceed, Sir. Mr. E. then said if such were the desij^n, he shou'd attribute it to that spirit of opposition to every thing con- nected with a large town, or its representatives, which had*so industriously, and so eloquently been fostered by gentlemen, who had long and successfully engaged the attention of the Con- vention. Mr. Holmes rose, and called the gentleman to order — the gentleman from Portland had no right to question the motives of any other gentleman in debate. Mr. E. replied, that if he were out of order, he should most cheerfully acquiesce in the correction from the chair. It just- ly appertained to that station to settle such questions. The President considered Mr. E. in order. Mr. E. For hours, Mr. President, the language has been that which could not be understood, to lead to any conclu- sion but that the small towns by every consideration which would work on their hopes or their fears, were to be excited to restrain the large towns from an equal representation, Mr. H. claimed the protection of the house. He said he had not used such language — at any rate he disavowed all such mo- tives, whatever were his observations. The President said, he reluctantly was obliged to acknowl- edge, that the language used by the gentleman from Alfred, seemed to carry the meaning attributed to it by the gentleman from Portland, Mr, E. said, since the gentleman disavows any motives hos- tile to the iflterests of the large towns, I most cheerfully exoner- 21 242 ^tc him from ent€rtaining them. But while Mr. E. was willing to concede ibis to the gentleman's very late disavowal — be could not divest himself of the recollection of some o( ihe obser» vations made by the gentleman from Alfred, which to the under- standing of most men would carry the conviction that ihey were calculated to increase the unpleasant feelings of thai des( riplion of corporations, however innocent and |)ure even the views of the gentleman who used the language. And iVJr. President, it is necessary tu review those observaMt)ns, that we may come more coolly to the decision of the matter now in debate. When the inquiry is made why is it n«^cessary to take oare of the rich men of rich and large towns — does it not contain an implication that they are neglected — or have some cause of complaint that they are not equally represented and protected ? Does it not amount to telling them that however they are treated, it is equal to their deserts. When it is said they are great sores, and great evils, and the aid of the name of the venerable Jefferson is inv >ked to sanction the assertion, is it done without an expec- tation that it will be believed, coming from such high authority ? Is it expected that with the remark, that from such sources of impurity, great talents, if more resplendent, will be more res- pected ? Would not this language in any other case be calcu- lated to induce gentle-men to look with any eye of suspicion on delegates from those places, to hear with almost closed ears ev- ery thing which could be said in favor of the rights of those towns ? The gentleman has been long in the legislature of Massachusetts ' — He assumes to speak on this occasion as a witness, and informs us that he has seen the great speculators in Boston carrying measures through the Legislature, which a plain farmer would not dare to think of. Mr. President, Boston is not now on tri- al — she is not here to make a vindication. That great and no- ble designs ha^e their origin there, no one can doubt — and gen- tlemea of elevated patriotism have there always been found, to carry their designs into execution But would any gentleman take the language which we have been doomed to hear as communi- cating praise to the inhabitailts of that place? Did not all with one accord fail into the belief, that the schemes and measures carried through the Legislature, which a plain farmer did not dare to think of, were measures of such a character as required the hardihood and ^'impure sourcesj*^ of great towns onl-y to originate ? So abandoned as would shock the honest integrity 245 of a farmer to reflect on a moment ? And would not every one conclude that those nefarious practices to which the genlleraan alluded as adopted at Boston, would be resorted to in the large towns in this State ? Language of this description, and thus applied, when all great towns are alive to the operation of the principle which avows their inhabitants are not of equal consideration with in- habitants of smaller towns, must strike every Delegate from a jarge town with alarm. For while the inhabitants of the small- er towns are praised as the favorites of Heaven, a warning is made to them against the judiciary influence, against the plots and schemes of speculators, and the knavery and tyranny of merchants, which makes, as the gentleman says, all the wealth of the country pour into the large towns. And witbal w<^ are lold that the agricultural interest is in danger. But is the gentleman avrare of the effect of his highly wrought statement ? VVere such unheard of and unrighteous schemes ab- solutely carried through the Legislature of which he was a member, and he, the watchman of the people's rights, silent? Were so many of the yeomanry of Massachusetts, who were of the Legislature, silent and unconcerned spectators of the pro- gress of iniquity under the sanction of laws, without their pro- test on the records ? To believe all this would be to credit one of the most extraordinary libels ever made against a legislative body. Mr. E. said he did not believe it. Much must be placed to the rhetorical colouring which the gentleman so frequently •displays. Unquestionably in consequence of the great activity* of com- merce in the capital, the extensive information, the liberal and enlightened views of merchants and scientific men who throng there, measures of the highest inr.portance are proposed to the Legislature for iheir sanction, n'hich perhaps, on accouni of the locality of other members from the interior, have not be- fore been the sul>ject of their contemplation.^ — But when to iheir understanding the bearing of the objects to be accomplish- ed was well explained with an independence characteristic of thost^ usually selected for our Legislature, they have given their support, to what they thought the interest of the Common- wealth required. For one Mr. E. said he had the highest con- fidence in the integrity of the citizens of the smaller towns.— They usually understood their interests, and from them would come to tke Legislature, some of the most influential and abk 244 members. I^et us look to this very assembly. Mr. E. said that for example, he would ask whether the town ot Alfred would Complain of the want of ability of their delegate in this Convention ? What^project has he brought forward which has not found ready and able advocates ? VVhtt measure has he not carried ;^gainst every opposiiion ? That which has been, will probably again occur, and we may yet see represtnialives from the smaller towns run a tri- umph mt career. It may well however be wished for the honor of the State, and for the proonotion of republican virtue, whoever may be the successor of the gentleman from that respectable town, that he will wield other arguments than those addressed to the jea- lousies and the ignoble passions of the assembly with which he may be destined to associate*. Mr. Emery further remarked, that it was truly farcical to suppose the agricultural interests in danger. They would be most numerously gu-^rded, and the towns, most filled with inhab- itants and property, must pay for the services of those who would be most directly'employed for the protection of the in- terests of atjriculture. The motives of gentlemen who have assailed the large towns wilh the most singular and unjustifiable insinuations, we are not to impugn. It is true that the. effect is of more consequence to the injured than the motive. The terms used, however, must not be forgotten. The tendency of them, to say nothing of the mo- tive, no one can mistake. They are calculated, Mr Emery said he must repeal, to array the poor against the rich, to en- courage usurpation of the rights of others, to excite and inflame animosities, and all to procure the acceptance of the report on the subject of Representatives at all events. There is manifest displeasure at the discussion in opposition to it. A resolution is indicated to decide the matter at this time, and crush com- plaints at once. In this course, Mr. E. said, he should suffer only as one. But is this honorable body to be goaded and hurried on to a decision when their afitipathies have been roused, when their jealousies have been addressed and kindled, when the [^rfjudices of^rtaf)/ are flattered, and their love of power expanded ? For it is in re- ality a struggle for power of the small against the large towns^ and equal rights of citizens in the latter, have been dismissed as loo troublesome for adjustment. 245 You are urged now to settle the question, not in the calm de- liberation in which you have been advancing, but in an almost convulsive impatience at delay, and in a sort of overbearing de- rision of the distress of those who are to suffer by an unequal ap- portionment. You are deeply interested to hear more ! There are vari- ous propositions yet before you exhibited previously to the Presi- dent's resuming the chair, which have had no examination. The proposition of Mr. Neal, and of Mr. Wilson, which seem- ed, when announced, to arrest the attention of numbers, and in- stantly command their approbation ; that of Mr. Baldwin, which he says is thf» prettiest thing in the world, with some others of respectable import, and this of Mr. Wingate, which by some is professed not to be clearly understood, and by others is prefer- red to the report of the committee. In these circumstances can you proceed coolly and conscientiously to slide over those not examined, as matters which merit condemnation without a hear- ing of the reasons which actuated their authors ? Would this comport with the dignity of the Convention ? The debate has been long protracted. It is pressing hard up- oa midnight. Sometime past, an adjournment was negatived, though called for after the ordinary time. For the honor of the assembly, Mr.E. said, he most devoutly hoped a decision would not then be had, but that an adjournment would take place. Shall it be said that this most momentous of all questions was settled in a midnight session ? When the attention was fatigued, and feelings not of the best sort had uncontrolled dominion, when reason slumbered, and the eyelids weighed heavily ? Is this the state of mind in which you heretofore believed your vole would be given ? Would your constituents applaud you for such conduct ? Could those members, whose propositions, made in good faith, have been treated with mortifying and un- provoked neglect, think well of the proceeding ? Will they not say we were invited to lay them on the table to be read and to be slighted — to make way only for the ijifallibility of projects from another quarter ? When these things are known, do you think they will have no weight with the people ? Would it be a trifle that you should put at hazard the acceptance of your constitution 1 You have the power of declaring that all these considerations are matters of indifference. You can exercise the power. If you do it, Mr. E. said,it would be an occasioii of sorrow to him 21* 246 for he entertained the most profound respect for the Convention. He thought it would not be matter of pleasing contemplation to any one to-morrow. In the quiet of retirement a fairer view of the subject in its various lights and bearings may be taken, and in the morning he hoped they would all meet in a spirit of justice ami conciliation. Mr. E. then moved an adjournment, which was carried. WEDNESDAY, OCT. 27. Mr. Holmes, chairman of the revising committee, reported the 2d, 3d, and 4th articles of the constitution, as examined by them ; and thereupon, Ordered^ That the said articles now be engrossed. The Preamble and Declaration of Rights, or the 1st article of the constitution, as reported by the revising committee, as beiriig correctly engrossed, was again read. Judge Thacher said, he wished the constitution to go out to the people with the appearance of being founded upon religious principle. He had found much anxiety on the subject, and moved to amend the 3d section by inserting the word " duty," which motion was decided to be out of order. Mr. Knight then called up his amendment, to insert after " test"— '' but a belief in the Christian religion." Judge Thacher said, he did not know why a Jew should be excluded ; he has the same belief in Jehovah, the God of Abra- ham. We have the same hold on him in administering an oath. The motion was lost. Mr. Knight proposed to insert, *' but a belief in the being of a God." Mr. Dole, of Alna, hoped motions so trifling and pernicious in their consequences would not be debated. Gen. Wingate said, the motion amounted to nothing, since a man, who did not believe in the being of a God, would be wil- ling to swear that he did. This motion was also lost. The article then passed unani- mously. To-morrow, at 10 o'clock, was assigned for coming to the choice of a Secretary o^Siale pro tempore ; and that nominations be suspended in the mean time. Resolved, That Mr. Preble, of Cumberland, Mr. Thacher, j^jn. of York, Judge Ames, of Lincoln, Mr. Jarvis, of Hancock, Mr. Burgin, of Washington, Mr. Gage, of Kennebeck, Mr. Vir- gin, of Oxford, Mr. Coiburn, of Somerset, and Mr. Stetson, of 247 Penobscot, be a committee to prepare an address, in bebalf of the Convention, to the people of Maine, to be distributed with the constitution submitted to the people. The Convention further considered the motion made by Mr. Dearborn, for reconsideration of ihe vote relative to the subject of representation in the House of Representatives. Col. Atherton. Mr President — 1 did not intend to have taken any part in this debate,but the subject has taken so wide a range, and so many expedients have been offered, without producing a conciliation of the different conflicting interests, that [ can no longer, without a total disregard to the duties 1 owe my coa- stituents, remain silent. Notwithstanding the numerous pro- jects on your Honor's table, I do not yet feel satisfied thai any one has been offered which ought to take precedence of the amendment I proposed. I am still of the same opinion, notwithstanding all the ingenu- ity which has been displayed by various gentlemen of this Con- vention, that districting upon an extensive plan, and apportioned to the population of counties, will be found to be the most equal and convenient system. The representation of this State never ought to exceed one hundred members. This number is amply sufficient for all the purposes of legislation. Let the counties be districted equally on the population, and pay the members out of the public chest, and make it imperative that all those re- turned members to the Legislature should, at every session, be at the post of their duty. Here, Sir, you have an equal repre- sentation, formed on the basis of strict justice to all, which will cost the State one third less than the proposed plan ; but, Sir, on the reported system, at least 75,000 of your freemen are deprived of the right of representation. Where, Sir, do we find these 75,000 disfranchised citizens ? A part of them fall on the class to which the town I have the honor to represent is annexed. We had more than sufficient in numbers to entitle this town to one Representative, yet the committee joined another to it because they knew not what else to do with it. Another portion of the loss falls on the town of Portland, which, on every principle of equal representation, is entitled to six Representa- tives. — And thus unequally does this classification of a part of the towns operate throughout the new State. Sir, this system, if system it can be called, which has neither proportion, form or comeliness — has all the odious features of districting, so much dieaded and deprecated, without any of its 248 equal advantages. Towns of less than 1200 send a Representa- tive, while classes exceeding 3000 also send but one. I confess I do not understand why a thousand inhabitants oi the town of Hallowell are not equally entitled to theirright of suffrage as the same nunober in any other part of the country. I confess, Sir, I have none of these jealousies. — I do not perceive wfey the in- terests of the great and the snoall towns are not identified. — Nor can I understand the motives of gentlemen, who have attempted to excite the distrust of the small against the large towns. 1 do lament, Sir, that the Hon. gentleman from Alfred should have made use of any expressions having this tendency. He has given us the higL authority of the sage and philosopher of Mon- ticello, *' that great cities are great sores." — I do not believe this to be true as applied to well regulated cities, nor do I be- lieve in the infallibility of all the speculative opinions of that truly great man. In the same work, quoted by the Hon. gen- tleman from Alfred, may also be found a sentiroent of this sort — " that it matters not what a man's religion is, so long as it nei- ther picks my pocket or breaks my leg." Perhaps, Sir, as a general principle, of not interfering with the religion or rights of conscience of others, this may be correct — but, Sir, the want of this same religion has picked many a man's pocket and broken many a neck, [The President here interrupted, and doubted whether the gentleman was perfectly in order.] Mr. A. ex- plained. Sir, 1 have not taken a wider range than the gentle- man from Alfred (Mr. Holmes) was indulged in. He alluded to the same personage and to the same work, and I thought it proper in this way to reply to that part of his argument. [The President decided that Mr. A. was in order, and directed him to proceed.] It was far from my intention, Mr. President, to de- tract in the least from the merits of the great personage in ques- tion. — He is undoubtedly one of the distinguished lights and or- naments of this country; but his speculative opinions are as open to animadversion as those of any other man. Next to the system of general districting (if this cannot be attained) I would hold fast te the plan proposed by the Hon. gentleman from Bath, (Gen. Wingate) as being the next best system. Sir, I admire the magnanimity of this gentleman, for presenting us with a system which, if adopted, will rise superior to all petty distinctions and jealousies between the great towns and the small. To this, Sir, let us cleave as to the sheet anchor of our safety — as to our last forlorn hope. 241> Let us not, at the outset, deprive one quarter part of our felloff citizens of their elective franchise. But let us seasonably take warning from the disturbances and massacres which have re- cently happened in another country, on account of the people's contending for the very rights we are about to deny to our owa citizens. Judge Cony said he did not lise, expecting to exhibit new views on the subject, the discussion of which was nearly brought to a close. But I believe, said the Judge, it will be of use to our constituents, as well as the different projects which have been laid on the table. Gentlemen s^.y wc shall not be able to get a perfect system. Sir, tve are all imperfect. The ques- tion we should decide, before we complain is, is the system just and equal ? The constitution of Massachusetts says, " in order to provide for a representation, founded upon the princi- ple of equality," and by this mode seventy towns, besides the plantations, are not entitled to a Representative. Is this equal ? Now let us look at the constitution as reported and adopted- does it approach nearer an equality ? 1 was not its advocate — I was for districting. But, >iir, we come here from corpora- tions, and having corporate feelings, which will have their in* fluence. Why will not this report be amended ? because there are more who think that, though not entirely equal, it is the nearest to an equality of any that has been proposed. I think. Sir, that it will secure our rights— that it is the b-est that will be adopted. Gentlemen say the constitution will be opposed by the people. 1 believe, Sir, the people will be satisfied with- the f)rovision for the Governor and Council, the Judiciary, iht of representation, so established, shall not be altered, until the next general apportionment," Son^e (ew remarks, and, objections to this amendment, were made on the part of Judges Dana, Thacber and Pan is, Dr. Rose, Mr. Dole, and Mr. Allen, of N. Mr. Holmes observed, that the proposition was not understood. It was, that in forming classes, the Legislature might give one town a right to send a Representa'.ive according to its popula- tion, and class the others. What, asked Mr. F]. if a town with 1200 inhabitants is surrounded by towns having a right to a Representative, what will you do with such a town ? On the ^application of that town, the Legislature, in forming classes, will take it into consideration. It would' do manifest injustice to such towns Bot to give them the right to elect Representa- tives 4 a portion of time equal to their proportion of represen- tation. This amendrBtnt then passed in the affirmative, 166 to 45^ and the said sections were so amended. Several propositions were raade?in writing, as substitutes for 251 I tbe 2 Jand 3d seetions, 4tb article of the Const Kution. The propoMtioij,^, (^o^Je of which have been noticed) were frera Mr. Wilson, ot Bingham, Mr Stevens, of China, Mr. Baldwin, of Mercer, Mr. Grover, oi Bethel, Mr. Neal,of EHiot, Mr. Tuck- cr, ol SiamJsh, Mr. Thomas, of £«len, Major Swan, of Wins- low, Mr. Allen, of Norridgwock, Mr. Shaw, of Newport, Dr. Rose, of Boothbay, Judge Cony, ot Augusta, Major Treat, of B'.ngor, Mr. Ri.'ey, of iSewry, Mr. Leonard, of Brewer, and Mr. Johnson, ot Jackson ; which were severally read, and or- deied to be placed upon the files of the Convention. Ariicle llih, ^ectIon 1st, was agaiu taken into consideration. Gen. Wingate's motion to strike out that part of the section which provides for the first House of Representatives, and sub- atiiuie a provision similar to that of Massachusetts, was taken up. Judge Cony said,' there would be much business come before the first Legislature, and he did not perceive the necessity that it should be sO large as three hundred ; and if it were so, he should not be in favor of the amendment. Mr. Dearborn said, there are now 147 members from Maine, and that upon this proposition^ it would amount to 1^0 or 200, and not more. Mr. Adams, of Gorham, said, in 1813, of about that period, when party excitement was at its height, there were actually elected, if I do uot misrecollect, nearly 240 members, in the District of Maine, of the House of Representatives. If, then, we should in the same mode,^lect our first House of Represen- tatives, and in addition allow every corporate town, not having 150 ratable polls, to elect one Representative, our first Legis- lature will contain, at least, 300 Representatives; for the peo- ple will surely be disposed to exercise their elective franchise to its lullest extent. The people however danot wish nor ex- pect, the opportunity of electing so unwieldy a number ; they desire that the number may be much,"eri/inttcA reduced. Mr. Dearborn referred to the Convention, which had but a- bout 300 members, and many towns send, which will have to be classed. Mr. Holmes said, we made a report apportioning the first Legislature so as to contain 146 members, with classing the plantations. This proposition provides only for those towns to choose, which are entitled to elect under the Constitution of Massachusetts, and to class the others. On th€ one hand, th€ 252 House, if this is adopted, will be more numerous, and on the other, more e5 pensive. He did not however think it a matter ©f great importance. Mr, 'J'hacher, of Saco, hoped the motion would not prevail. In the county of York there would be fifty Representatives, and he thought Iwentv* five would do quite as well. There must be two sessions of the Lfgislature, which must bit not less than eighty days, and at an expense of forty thnu«and dollars. Mr. Usher could see no good reason for the amendment. It bad been said our expenses would be lessened ; the business could be done with more despatch and harmony by a smaller number. Gen Wingate then withdrew his motion. A different arrangement and apportionment of Representa- tives, from that in the printed report, in the counties of Penob- scot and Oxford, agreeably to the report of the committees frona those counties, was accepted. The apportionment of Representatives for the counties of Lincoln and Hancork, was committed to the delegates from said counties respectively, for them to consider said apportion- ment, and to report this afternoon. Section 2d passed with a small amendment, Section 3d passed without amendment. Section 4lh was read. Mr. Baldwin. Mr^ President — It appears to me this scetioix delegates to our Legislature a stretch of power, that noLegisla- ture on earth has a right to exercise. '* Whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary to propose amendments j" and pray, Sir, why not when a majority shall deem it necessa- ry ? Or why not when a majority of the people shall deem it necessary ? h it too great a privilege for the people to exercise this right ? for a right it is, and one that never ought to be wrest- ed from the people. Is it too much expense to insert in this Constitution, that seven years hence, or in the yedr 1826, th€ selectmen in the several towns in Maine, shiptionv, ami discre- tionary power to exempt, until we lost nearly one third of our whole physical force. Sir, have we any pledge that a future Lecjislature will not do the same ? Leave it in the power of the Legislature, and al the first session they will have an application to exempt 140 engine- men from this town. Why, Sir, let me ask, should the Slate furnish enginemen for the town of Portland ? And to the ruin too of the whole military establishment of the town. I well re- member. Sir, during the last war, that the Portland regiment, which ought to have been 800 strong, mustered but about 300 men. At the same time the exemptions amounted to nearly 300. The militia I consider as owing their services and allegiance to the whole State arkd not to a single town — 1 never found them backward at firps,but always willing to do^as much as thc/avor- ed exempts themselves. 237 During the war, and while the militia were ordered out for the defence of Portland, the companies of artillery and infantry were filled by drafts from the country. Having occupied some time on this subject, previous to this, twill not longer detain the Convention, being fully persuaded that we shall not disappoint the just expectations of our con- stituents, who have a right to expect that we shall measure out equal justice to all. Gen. Chandler said, he was very well satisfied that some- thing should be done to relieve the burdens of that class of the commmjity. He thought it would be one of the first dut-es of the Legislature to do them justice, and hoped the motion would prevail. Mr. Holmes said, 1 do not recollect but two exceptions which I should make to this amendment One is, its providing that certain persons may be exempted, and not others. The other is, that it is too strong j that it prohibits the Legislature from exempt insj others, even for sufficient reasons. Mr. Baldwin displayed, at some length, the unequal burden borne by the militia, the main pillars of our independence^ which in his opinion was not only extremely unjust, but cruel and tyrannical, and ought to be remedied. He was strongly op- posed to the plai\ of clglhing, equipping, and arming them, as being liable to many difficuliies, and dej^rading to the soldier. If they receive any compensation, said Mr B. let it be liberal — relinquish their poll taxes, and let them remain gentlemen, if you wish to maintain the spirit and genius of freeborn patriots. Mr. Shepley hoped the subject wculd not be passed over slightly. The people expect their rights to be secured to them. They ask for no excuse from duty, I ut only that others should not be exempt from performing duty ; but only that others should not be exempted from performing what they do them- selves, and this is perfectly reasonable. Mr. Herrick; of B. thought there was too much disposition to shift responsibility from the Convention to the first Legisla- ture. He thought this the time to make our rights and liberties secure : he was in favor of the motion. Mr. Slockbridge remarked, that the motion of Col. A. would prevent the Legislature from making exemptions on account of religious scruples, which power he thought they ought to pos- sess. ■ Mr- Allen said he should be willing the militia should have 22* 258 Sonne emolument ; he hoped none would be exempted wl an equivalent. The President observed, that It was apparent the burden fell heavily upon the poorer clashes. He was of opinion an equivalent should be given, by those who were excuse be regulated by law, and bear some proportion to the an of property which was protected by the militia. In some o States, 50 per cent, is deducted from taxes of those wl military duly, which operates as an equivalent to those pay the taxes. The motion for reconsideration prevailed, and the se was striken out. And the motion to adopt the substitute of Atherton passed almost unanimously, and the section w& amended. Judge Green, chairman of the committee appointed to prej a petition to Congress for the admission of Maine into Union, made a report which was read, and ordered to lie the table. Col. Atherton gave notice that he should call up his resoi tion to appoint a committee to locate the seat of governmei to-morrow at 9 o'clock. A motion was made to fix the salary of the Governor at froi $ 1200 to g 1500, which was advocated by the Rev. Mr. Hog per, of Paris, who said the people expect iU But the molioi was negatived; by 150 to 29. Adjourned. THURSDAY, OCT. 28. Mr. Wevmouth, of Belmont, submitted a proposilioh relatife to the judiciary, which was read and ordered to lie on the table. Ordered. That Col. Moody, Judge Parris, Gen Chandler, Gen. Kendall, and Col. Pond, be a committee to consider and report the time and place to which this Convention shall ad- journ, in order that they may finish tbe hufiness assigned them, by an act relating to the separation of Maint^ from Massacbu- setlP proper, and forming the same into a separate and inde- pendent stale. Mr. Holmes moved an amendment to be inserted i*i article JG!h, schedule, seciion 1st, providing for the election of persons (o supply the vacancies which night happen by the death of the President, or Secretary of State pro tempore^ which passed in ?h*! affirmative. 259 Col. Moody, chairman of the committee appointed jre«tcrday, upon the subject of printing and distributing the constitution and address, submitted the following resolution^ which was read and passed. Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention be authorised and required, to procure to be printed, a sufficient number of the copies of the constitution and the address to the people of Maine, and distribute, as soon as may be, one copy to the se- lectmen of each town, and the assessors of each district or plan- tation ; one to each clerk of the several towns and plantations, and one to each of the members of the Convention ; and also to cause the same to be published in the se?eral newspapers print- ed within the district. The same committee reported the follovring resolution • Resolved, That when the business of the first session of this Convention is completed, the convention will adjourn, to meet on the first Wednesday of January next, at the court house in Portland. Read and accepted. Col. Atherton moved the following resolution, as a substitute ' for the one he had previously offered on the subject of iocatioB of the seat of government : Resolved, That the first meeting of the Legislature of the State of Maine, and for the organization of the government, shall be in the town of Portland ; which w^as read — and Ordered, That the above resolution be committed to the committee appointed to prepare and report a constitution or frame of government, for the new Stale. On motion of Col Moody, three o'clock this afternoon was assigned for coining to the choice of a Treasurer. Mr Stockbridge moved *o amend article 4tb, section 5th, by inserting, after ministers of the gospel, *'and those whose re- ligiou:^ sentiments forbid their engaging in war." It has been remarked, said iVTr. S that the coustilution is generally accep- table to the people abroad ; but this section has been altered so as to make it imperative on the Legislature, tu cause all persons, except quakers and shakers, judges of the supreme caurt, and ministers of the gospel, do military duty, or pay an equivalent. Now, said he, if a sect of Moravians i^huuid arise in the State, whose religious sentiments lorhid them to peiform miiiiary duty, it would be hard to lay the burden on them. There are many in this Convention, who cannot vote for the constitution, unless 260 tiMfprcvrferoti hi ttraxle ; and a& th* gentfetfWtt fi^mrt>rd«pect Bat consented to this am<»ndment, 1 hupe it will be adopted. The motion was negatived. Mr. Stockbridge proposed to insert " licence to j^reach iht gospel.*' Dr. Rose twov^d to strike 6ut '* Ordained and settled/' Mr. Holmes said be hoped it would be struck out. There ate many candidates and nnissionaries In different parts of the State who we do not want in ?he ranks of the militia. Col# Moody and Gren. Chandler opposed the motion,because it would be difficult todecide who were ministers of the gospel. Judge Thacher said* it might brii)g on a question between the law and the constitution. Every one, said the Judge, is in one sense, a preacher of the gospel, as it is his duty to preach and also to practise ; and no others arc ministers of the gospel — for if he preach and does not practise, he is a liar. Travelling preachers would not be exempted ; but if it were left, cdained ministers, it would be left to the judiciary, to settle it according to the New-Testament and words of Christ himself. Mr. Thacber, of Saco, hoped the motion would not prevail. If it did, there were fifteen or twenty of Cochran's Society who would claim an exemption, and a whole division of seU made preachers would be exempted. Mr. Locke considered it of great importance. There are, said he, many ordained ministers, who are not settled, and who think it their duty to go as missionaries — to " go and preach the gospel to every creature." He thought thty ought to be ex- empted, or it would not be equal, and hoped the motion would , prevail. Judge Dana. Mr. President — I should not have riben on this subject, if some of the refnarks of the Hon. gentleman from, Biddeford were not calculated to give a wrong impression, and ^ that I n»tght remove the apprehenaions of the gentleman from Sacc», Mr. Thacher, that if the amendment takes place, we ■, shall have a brigade of renegade exempted preachers. I fully i agree with him thai every ignorant enthusiast, who can collect, pe<>ple enoui^^h together for an evening meeting.^ ought not to be, exempted from doing military duty without paying an equiva-4. lew. .Nor does it follow, by any mean?, if the words settled and * ordained are stricken out, that surh impostors will be exempted, :^ Will fjot th-e Legislaiure be as suitable jufiges, as we, who are and who are not mnmiet^ of the gospel ? and why should we^ : 261 who come here to form a constitution, assume the duties bf Legislators ? Our business is to prescribe the form of govern- ment and to establish general principles : but not to descend to an application of them ; this will be the duty of others chosen for that purpose ; and we ought to have confidence in future Legislatures: they will discriminate, and justly decide, who are ministers of the gospel and who ought to be exempted. Gentle- men appear to be alarmed that we are about to extend the prin- ciple of toleration too far. I can assure them there is no danger — we cannfr)t extend this principle too far ; for experience teaches us, that religious: frenzy and enthusiastic wildness can never be checked by coercive measures ; but will thrive best in opposi'.ton. If you would correct this evil, you must correct the public taste and improve the moral sentiment — by educa- ting your youih in a suitable manner ; for with ignorance dwells supersdtiun ; and wherever the people are fond of being in)pos- ed upon, ai d deceived, there you will alw ys find in postors and dert ivers. 'J'here is another reason why the words settled and crditined should not be fixed in the consiiluiion, as descriptive of exempts ; because ilen^m nations may a^ise among U9, viho shall have able and pious teachers, who ought (if any) to be exempt- ed from military duty, and yet do not con»e under the above description ; and I believe there are now some of this kind : how unwise and unjust it would be to select those teachers of religion, and those only, who belong to particular denomina- tions, as candidates for favour, to the exclusion of all others — • it w( uld be an invidious distinction, and such an one as 1 hope and tru«n to preach the election sermon in May next. Judge Parris thought it had better be postponed until the next sesi^ion of the Convention. Gen. Wingate asked, if we were to have all the parade and pageantry of the government of Massachusetts ? He hoped we should be more fef'»i*>Ucaa. The practice had been mucli a- bused. Resolved, That Judge Parris, lion. Mr. Whitman and Mr. Preble be a committee to receive the returns of the several towns and plantations, approving or disapproving of tije Consti- tution prepared by this Conveittion. Articles 2d, 3d, 4lh, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th of the Constitution were reported by the revising rcmmittee, as having been exam* ined by them and correctly eiigro ed, nere severally read again and pa««ed Judge Thacher said, he did not know that preaching a ser- mon was anti republican. Other States had always practised it, r»nd it is a good and wholesome custom. After a little conversation the matter subsided and no vote was taken on the sul>ject. Mr. 'ohnson, of Belfast, moved to insert in article 7. section 6. *"No able bodied male citizen" — because, 'dhhough such are exempted from military duty, by the laws of the U. States, yet there is no impropriety in recognizing it, in our consliiulion, since i^is not generally understood. This question was bega- tived, and the Convention Adjourned. AFTERNOON.'-'Mr Low, of Lyman, the oldest member ©f the Convention, ros« in his place and said, Mr. President, I 263 have said little in this Convention, but I have been an attentive observerof the proceedings ; and although I have ever been opposed to the measure oT separation, I have been pleased to see the manner in which the important business of the Conven- tion has been conducted, and with what has been done. I think it judicious and correct, and I shall endeavour to persuade the people to adopt the constitution — and I sincerely hope that no root of bitterness will spring up, to mar the harmony which has so happily prevailed during this session in this Convention. He then asked leave to offer the following VOTE OF THANKS. Resolved^ unanim§usly, that this Convention present their thanks to their Hon. President, for the candor and impartiality with which he has conducted in his office, and for his successful cndeavers to preserve peace and harmony during our session ; and that we tender hiai our wish for a happy return to his fami- ly, and the possession of all those blessings which sensibility can enjoy. Which resolve, after being read by ihe Secretary, was unan- imously adopted. Upon which the President made the following reply :-• - <}ENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION, This testimony of your approbation is to me inv^jluable — If I have been successful in the discharge of the duties which the partiality of friends assigned me, to your uniform candor and support it must be attributed — which will always be gratefully acknowledged. Permit me, gentlemen, to congratulate you upon the harmony and mutual respect which has prevailed during your delibera- tions and to hope that this spirit of toleration and good will, will be generally diffused by your example. I will only add my best wishes for your prosperity and hap- piness, and that for your public services, as well as your indi- vidual exertions, you may receive the confidence and gratitude of your feliow-citizens. Agreeably to assignment, the Convention proceeded to the choice of a Treasurer ; when it af>peared that the whole num- ber of votes given in was 263 ; necessary (o a choice 132 ; and the Hon. Albion K. Parris had 222 votes jmd he was declared elected, Mr. Wilkins, ofNew-Charlestown moved the following a- mendment to the 10th article of the constitution, in these words 264 — " Section 8th, all taxes upon real estate, assessed by the au thority of the State, shall be apportioned equally according to the just value thereof." Mr. Wilkins said, he believed it had been the desire of the Convention to establish just and equitable principles, and that the manner of taxing property hitherto used was very unequal. He knew no reason why uncultivated lands should not be taxed equally with improved lands, and therefore was solicitous for the insertion of this provision in the constitution. Col. Moody. I hope, Sir, the motion will prevail. I think there is justice in taxing wild lands, as well as other property, according to their relative value. I have ever been in favor of it, and have endeavored to have the rule established in the tax acts of the General Court ; but it has always been defeated. I caa see no reason for the distinction between improved and un- improved lands, and believe it obstructs the settlement of our wild lands, and that nothing would conduce more to this end than equalizing taxes. Judge Ames said, that he was extremely gratified with the proposedamendment of the Hon. gentleman from New-Charles- town, and hoped it would be adopted, though he did not rise to offer any argument in support of the motion, believing, as he did, that no member of the Convention could possibly oppose it, who had witnessed the unequal system of taxation in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. But fearing the motion might be withdrawn on the suggestion, which had been made, that the object of it was already secured by a provision, contained in the eighth section of the terms and conditions in the act of separation, he rose merely to offer bis own construction of the provision alluded to. The provision is this :—" No laws shall -be passed in the proposed State with regard to taxes, making any distinction between the lands and rights of property of pro- prietors, not resident in, or not citizens of said pjoposed Slate, and the lands and rights of properly of the citizens of the pro- posed State resident therein." He said, to him it was clearly manifest from this provision, that the Legislature of Massachu- setts intended nothing; more than to place all the lands of non- resident proprietors upon an equal footing in relation to taxes with the lands of resident proprietors, and that this object only is effected by the provision of the Act — if therefore the wild lands of resident proprietors are taxed only at two |iercent, the government of the new State can only tax the wild lands of non- 265 resident proprietors at two per cent ; and, if one is taxed at six per cent, tiie other must be taxed at six per cent also. But this provision does not pievent the Legislature of the new State from taxing the wild land at two per cent, and the improved lands at six per cent. If however tl^ie Legislature of the new Slate do this in relation to the lands of resident proprietors, they are obliged to do the same in relation to the lands of non- resident proprietors. This (he said) was his construction of the provision in the act alluded to, and he hoped therefore the amendment proposed would be adopted — he was also in favor of it because it contained what was agreeable to the feelings and expectations of the people. • Mr. Holmes said he was much pleased with the proposition, but he would suggest an alteration in the proposed amendment, which is, that taxes on uncultivated lands shall never be appor- tioned less on their value tLan on cultivated. My object is, said Mr. H. that the Legislature should never assess less on unculti- vated lands, but I would give them the power to assess more. We may find it good policy to tax lands in the hands of non- resident proprietors high. Col. Moody objected to the amendment of the motion — it might be the cause of injustice, and give rise to unfounded fears. Mr. Holmes replied, I would retain the power to tax over- grown speculators more than six per cent. It may become ne- cessary to tax them so. Uncultivated lands may be surrounded by those that are cultivated, and will thus increase in value by the labor of others. The proposition holds out no false colours. I avow my meaning to be, to have the power of taxing those lands more than six percent, if we find it necessary. Mr. Wilkins said, all he wanted was a just and equal mode of taxing property — nothing more. He wished the uncultivated and improved lands to be put upon an equal footing, and de- clined altering his motion, as suggested by Mr. Holmes. Judge Cony observed that he presumed the debates were nearly closed, that the final question was soon to be taken on the engrossed constitution, but a motion was made to add anoth- er section — it contains an important provision, and ought to be duly considered — if he understood its import, and its olject, it was to prescribe a rule for the eqxiai and just apportionment of State taxes on real estate. Sir, taxes ought to be equal accord- ing to a fair apprisa! of the property taxed : all classes of our citizens will acquiesce in such a rule — those who pay a small 23 266 proportion, and those in (he class to which he belonged, not really necessitous, and yet not far from it, would be satisfied, and I'he rich and the opulent, if not satisfied, they ought to be so. Under these impressions he should vote in favor of the motion made by the gentleman from New-Charlestown. But, Sir, the amendment to this motion, proposed by the member from Alfred, the Hon. Mr. Holmes, he could not support. — It contains a principle, avowedly, as he himself has explained it, authorizing the Legislature to levy unequal, ought we not to say unjust^ taxes on real estate— proptriy held the most sacred ; and be- cause it may happen to be held by non-residents. A principle, Sir, equally obnoxious and opposed both to justice and to sound policy. Admit this amendment, and we depreciate the value of our public lands fifty per cent. From the sale of those lands public credit will be sustained, our treasury replenished, our colleges and seminaries of learning endowed, and olher objects uf public utility fostered. Admit this amendment and we point a dagger to the vitals of the constifution. If the members of that honorable body viewed it in the light that he did, he felt confident they would reject it. The motion of Mr. Wikins then passed in the affirmative near- ly unanimously, and the section passed as engrossed. The remaining articles of the constitution were reported by the revising committee, as being correctly engrossed, and the same were severally read and passed. The constitution having been passed upon, Mr. Holmes arose and said, Mr. President — I hope. Sir, every gentleman in this Convention feels the importance of the vote he is about to give. I hope each member feels the weight of hU responsibility and character as depending on his vote. The question to be decid- ed is, whether we shall receive or reject the constitution, which has now been completed ; and, Sir. I do not fear ihe result. I see here men from all par4h of our State, who would do honor to any country ; and I never saw men who wished to conduct with more correctness end deliberation than have been exhibited on this occasion. The only inquiry wilh all has been, what is light? The Delegates came tcgelber, all wishing to peiform the same thins; — to tbrm a constitution which should s(cure and promote the best interests of the whole. Sir, I have been de- lighted and amazed at the spectacle ! During the whole of our session, I have seen a spirit which has done honor to the Con- vention. I never saw an assembly come together with better feelings^ or part with better ftelings. None of us can s^y, this 267 is my constitution — every one has sacrificed his private opin* ions to the general guod. And I hope, Sir, this spirit will be carried through. I hope no one will think he is here for a par- ticular object, but that in our final vote, we shall be unanimous. What an event is this for the world — a body of men, delib* crating on the first principles of a free government, giving up their feelings ou the altar of patriotisin ! Where is the people who would not be delighted with the view ? How would the nations of the world rejjice at the exercise of the right I Let Kings and Etnperors envy us the happiness of our lot 1 It is not nece?sary to recapitulate the result of our labors. I will only allude to the genera! principles of the constitution. The au- thority of the public will — the right to personal security — free- dv)m of worship — the right to speak and publish his sentiments secured to every citizen and to justify by giving the truth in evidence — a right to bear arms — personal protection of his properly — the right to elect and to be elected — a balance in the two Houses of the Legislature — an Executive guarded from the exercise of oppression, but vvidi the power to do right — an independent Judiciary, responsible to the people — the interven- tion of a jury in all criminal prosecutions. With these princi- ples established — with such a constitution — proud we may not i^e-r-for it is not for fallible man to boast of the labor of his hands, or to confide in their stability. The generations of man- kind are constantly changing and propelling each other into oblivion. It would be singular if we should all meet again \n this world. To-morrow's sun will see us scattered to the four winds of Heaven, and the places that now see us shall see us all no more forever. But, Sir, with proud satisiiiction may we reflect how cordially we have acted together, and now let us look to that Being, on whom we depend for all our blesiings, to have us under his holy keeping, and to preserve for us ever- lasting felicity. Th« question was now put upon the acceptance of the con- stitution for the New State, as reported by the committee, and now engrossed as amended, and the same passed in the affima- tive, two hundred and thirty-six members voting in the affirma- tive, and thirty \n the negative. And the Convention g* Adjourned. FRIDAY, OCT. 29. Gen. Wingate submitted the following resolutions: — Rescloedy Thai the thanks of the Convention be presented 268 to ibe Rev. clergymen, who have performed religious exercises during our Session, for the able, devout and satistactory manner in which they have discharged their duty. Resolved., That the thanks of this Convention be presented to the First Parish in Portland, for the use of the meeting-house of said parish, gratuitously and generously furnished by them for the accommodation of the Convention. The above resolutions were unanimously adopted. The Secretary was directed to notify Hon. Albion K Parris and Ashur Ware, Esq. of their election as Treasurer and Secre- tary pro tempore. Resolved, That the constitution adopted by this Convention be published and sent to the several towns, districts and planta- tions within the District of Maine ; and that the inba' ilants, thereof qualified by law, be requTed lo assemble in iheir re- spective towns, <^c. on the first Monday of December next, to give in their votes in writing, expressing their approbation or disapprobation of said constitution. Resolved, That the Secretary of State pro iemvore and the Secretary of this Convention b^ directed lo superintend the printing of the constitution, and also tl)e j-fvera! le-olves which have been passed by this Convenliori a*ui ordered to be pub- lished. Resolved, That the Treasurer be authorised to borrow such sum of money, as may be necessary to pay the members of the Convention. Resolved, That the Secretary of State pro tempore be re- quested to procure from the office of the Secretary of State of the United States, authenticated copies of the reports of the several Boards of Commissioners, relative to the boundaries and lin)its of the State of Maine, in that department; and likewise authenticated copies of all grants, and confirmation of grants, relative to the title and boundaries of the said State, in the office of the Secretary of Stale of the Commonwealth of Massa- chusetts ; and that they be placed in the office of the Secretary of State of this State. Resolved, That the application to Congress, for the admission of the State of Maine into the Union, be signed by the Presi- dent, and forwarded to Congress by the Senator and the Repre- sentatives in Congress from Maine. Resolved, That Judge Parris, Mr. Preble, and the Hon. Mr. Whitman, be a committee to prepare a proper form of a return 269 of votes on the question of the acceptance of the constitution, to be forwarded to the selectmen of the several towns, and the assessors of the several plantations. The committee to whom had been committed the subject of the location of the Seat of Government, and to designate the place where the first mesling of the Legislature shall be held, Reported, that they had attended to the duties assigned tliem, and submitted the following Resolution as taken into a new draft ; — Resolved, That Portland, be the place for the first meeting of the Legislature for the State of Maine ; which Resolve was read and accepted — 175 members voting in the affirmative, and 70 in the negative. Previous to this vote being taken, Mr. Dearborn of HalloweU, moved to strike out all the report of the committee, after the word resolved, and insert "that be a committee to designate the place and procure suitable accommodations for the first meet- ing of the Legislature of Maine, and for the organization of the gv)vernment thereof, with directions to fix upon some place in the county of Keunebeck, and to report their doings to the Conven- tion at their next session." Mr. Dearborn observed, that he made this motion for the pur- pose of bringing the question, at once, fairly before the Con« vention, without involving any conflicting interests of towns in Kennebeck ; and stated that as it was pretty generally under- stood that this question should be settled without debate, he wished it to be taken by yeas and nays. A sufficient number not rising in favor of calling the yeas and nays, the Convention was returned by the Monitors, 82 voting in favor of the amend- ment, and 156 against it. Resolved, That the constitution as accepted l)y this Conven- tion, be signed by the President, and countersigned by the Secretary ; and that the Secretary cau^e the names of those members who have signed the constitution to be entered on the journal, and that the same be annexed to the printed consti- tution. The committee on the expenses of the Convention, exclusive of the Pay Roil, made a report which was read, and Ordered, That the Treasurer be requested to pay to th^ sev- eral persons mentioned in said report the sums set agiinst their names respectively ; amounting in the vvhole to the sum of five hundred and twelve dollars and twenty-nine cents. 23* Adjourned^ 270 AFTERJVOOJV,^Ordered, that the Treasurer be directed to pay John Merrick, Esq. orHallowell, the sum of twenty dollars, for services by him rendered ; as by his account exam- ined and allevved. On motion of the President, Resolved unanimously ^ That the thanks of this Convention be presented to the committee, appointed to prepare and report a constitution or frame of government for the new State, for the ability and unwearied attention bestowed upon the subject committed to them. The committee on the Pay Roll, made a report by which it appeared that the travel and attendance of the members of this Convention amounts to the sum of which was ac- cepted, and Ordered-^Thai the Treasurer be directed to pay the same. Resolved, That an additional number of copies of the Con- stitution be printed, in order that the Selectmen, Town Clerks and Delegates, be furnished with four copies each, instead of one copy each, as before provided. Agreeably to the Resolution offered in the morning, the con- stitution was signed by the Honorable President, countersign- ed by the Secretary, and subscribed by the members in the follovving manner : Dune in Convention, October 29, 1819. WILLIAM KING, President of the Convention^ and member from Batfu ROBERT C. VOSE, Secretary. [The names of the Delegates followed.] Voted, That when the Convention adjourns, it be to meet at the Ccuit House, in Portland, on the first Wednesday of Jan- uary next, at eleven o'clock in the forenoon. Arjjourned accordingly. Attest, ROBERT C. VOSE, Secretary, SECOND SESSION. PORTLAND, WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 5, 1820. Agreeably to the adjournment, the Convention this day as- sembled, and there being a quorum present they proceeded i% business. Judge Parris submitted the following resolutions, which were severally read and passed, the names of the committees being afterwards inserted :— Resoled, That the committee appointed to receive the returns from the several towns and plantations, be directed to take from the Post-Office, such returns as have been there received since the first day of January instant. Resolved, Thai Messrs. Parris, Thacher, ofBiddeford, Cony, Dole, Col. Pond, Dickenson, Stetson, of Hampden, Dr.French, of St. Albans, and Towle, of Porter, be a committee to examine the returns of votes from the several towns and plantations, on the constitution prepared by this Convention, and that the com- mittee report the whole number given in, and what number were in favor, and what number were opposed to said constitu- tion. Resolved, Thai Col. Lewis, of Gorham, Judge Ames, of Bath, Mr. Campbell, of Wintbrop, Col. Atherton and Mr. Vance, a committee to consider and report in what manner the adoption of the constitution and the admission of Maine into the Union shall be announced to the people. On motion of Gen Chandler, Resolved, That Messrs. Wood, of Lebanon, Allen, Foxcraft, Gutter and Snow, be a committee to inqune into the expedien- cy of furnishing each town and plantation in Maine with blank forms and returns ©f votes for Governor, Senators and Repre- sentatives, which may be given in on the first Monday of April next. On motion of Col. Atherton, Resolved, That the Hon. Asa Clapp, Matthew Cobb, Isaac Jbley, Arthur McLellan, Barrett Potter, Robert llsley and Levi Cutter, Esq'rs. be a committee to provide suitable buildings 272 and accommodations for the meeting of the Governor and Coun- cil, the Senate and House of Re[)resentatives of the State of Maine, at their first session, to be holden in Portland on the last Wednesday of May next. THURSDAY, JAN. 6. Hon. Mr. Parris, chaitman of the committee appointed to examine the returns of votes from the several towns and planta- tions in Maine, on the constitution prepared by this Conven- tion, having attended the service assigned them, made the fol- low ing report : — That the whole number of votes legally and seasonably re- turned, is 9837, of which 9050 are in favor of said constitution, and 796 are opposed. And the committee further report, that the whole number of votes returned, were 10,899, of which 10,095 were in favor of said constitution, and 873 were opposed — which report was read and accepted. Resolved^ That the Treasurer of this Convention be and hereby is authorised to borrow, on the credit of the State of Maine, the sum of ^4000, to defray the expenditures of the Convention. Rcsolvedy That be a committee lo examine the books, accounts and vouchers of the Treasurer, with the view to an adjustment, and report tbreon. [Gen, Wingate, Mr. llsley,and Mr. Gage, were appointed said committee.] Resolved^ That be a committee on the Pay Roll, and that ihey be instructed to make up the Pay Roll, including to- morrow. [Gen Irish, Co;. Lewis, and Mr. Dearborn, of H. were appointed said coinmiltee.] Resolved, That the Secretary of State pro tempore, be and he hereby is instructed to examine and asceitain what.docu- ments and papers, in the ofiSce of the Secretary of the Common- wealih of Mafsacliusetts, or elsewhere, are of impoitance for the use of tlie Legislature of Maine, and that he procure the same or authenticated copies thereof. Resolved, Tba^t the Treasurer of this Convt ntion be instruct- ed to pay over to the Secretary of Slate pro tempoie, the sum of glOO, to be accounted for by said Secretary to the Legislature of Maine. Agreeably to assignment, the Convention proceeded to the choice of a person, who, in case of the death., or other disqualifi- cation of the President of this Convention, before the election 273 and qualification of the Governor under the Constitution of Maine, shall have all the powers and perform ail the duties which the President of this Convention shall have anil perform — and Mr. Preble, Judge Thacher, and Mr. Herrick, of Bow- doinham, were appointed a committee to receive, count and sort the votes ; when it appeared that the whole number of votes thrown was 168: Hon. John Chandler had 110 votes, and was declared elected. Thpy then proceeded to the choice of a person to succeed the Secretary of State pro tem. in case ot the deaih or disqualifi- cation of the present incumbent, when it was found that the whole number of votes was 174 — Robert C. Vc^e, Esq. had 172 votes and was chosen. Col. Lewis, from the committee appointed yesterday, report- ed the following resolution : — Resolved, That the Secretary of this Convention be directed to publish in the several newspapers printed in Maine, the cer- tified result of the votes from the several towns and plantations in Maine upon the adoption of the constitution as reported to the Convefjtion — and that after the 15th day ol March next, on condition that the proposed Slate of Maine shah have been ad- mitted into the Union, the President be requested to isj^ue his proclamation to the people of the Slate of Maine, making known such admission ; and that the constitution proposed by the Convention, and adopted by the people, is the constitution and frame of government for the State. Accepted. The committee appointed for the purpose reported forms of returns of votes for Governor, Senators and Repret ol Ihe 'i'reasurer, the commit- tee have not been enabled to adjust the accourjts of the expen- ditures of the present session, and iheneiore recommeiid the pas- sage of ihe following resolves, which are respecifully submitted : Resolved, That the Treasurer of this Convention be directed to accout)t with the first Legislature of Maine, for the balance of money remaining in his hands, after defraying the appropria- tions m^de by this Convention. Resolved^ That the Treasurer be allowed, as compensation for his services, the one half of one per centum on all njonies paid cut by him. under the direction ot the Conveniion. Which report and resolutions were severally read and ac- cepted. Gen. Irish, chairman of the committee on the Pay Roll, made a report, by which it appeared that the amount of travel and attendance due the several member? the present session, a- raounted in the whole to the sum of ^4216,which was read, and ordered that the Treasurer of this Convention be authorised to pay the several persons borne on the Pay Roll, the sums set a- gainst their names respectively. Mr Moody.ofHailowell, chairman of the committee to whom was referred the resolutions submitted yesterday by the Hon. Judge Thacher, reported the following resolution as taken into a new draft : — Resolved, That the President of this Convention cause to be transmitted to the Supreme Executive of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, one attested manuscript copy of the Constitu- tion of the State of Maine, and of the reports of the committee appointed to examine the returns of the votes of the several 275 towns and plantations upon the question of the adoption of the constitution, and also an attested manuscript copy of the pro- ceedings of this Convention, which resolution was read and ac- cepted. The Hon. Judge Thacher read in his place the following resolution : — Resolved, That the thanks of this Convention be presented to the Hon. William King, for the dignified and impartial man- ner in which he has discharged the duties of the chair during our deliberations — which resolution was again read by the Secretary, and unanimously adopted. The Hon. President then made the following reply ; — <' Gentlemen of the Convention, *' For the sentiments which you have expressed I feel par- ticularly grateful ; they come I perceive from an old and re- spected friend, from whom political considerations have perhaps too long separated me- -my friend on this occasion does not re- member them ; they are therefore erased from my recollection forever, '* The constitution, gentlemen, which you presented with so much unanimity to our fellow citizens, an unexampled majority have adopted. Your business has therefore now terminated ; to the public it has been most useful, to yourselves most honora- ble — being now enrolled as the fathers of the constitution. *' Permit me, gentlemen, to hope that the constitution with which God has been pleased through jou to bless us, may long preirerve the liberties and promote the happiness of all our fellow citizens, and that tor your services you may not only receive the respect of the virtuous of your own times, but the regard of posterity.'' The business of the Convention bavins; been gone through— on motion of the Hon Judge Cony — Foted, that the Conven- tion adjourn without day. Adjourned accordingly. APPENDIX. The following papers are designed to illustrate the origin and progress of the long agitated question of the Separation of Maine, ^vbich have become more interesting since that event has taken place- It was intended to include every document ** of pith and moment" relating to this subject, which could be collected ; but they were found to be so bulky that it would have swelled the book to an inconvenient size, and indeed are sufficient for a volume of themselves. Of course, it became necessary to make a selection of such as were deemed most valuable and interesting, especially those of an earlier date. These, to most of the pres- ent inhabitants of the State, must be new and curious, as they exhibit the different views that have been taken of this question at different and distant periods. Thirty-five years have elapsed since it was first started ; during the whole of which time,there was no long intermission of attempts to bring it about. The transactions of a recent date are more within recollection, or their records accessible ; and it is therefore of less consequence to preserve tbem, than those which were sliding into oblivion. The first of these papers is an account of the two earliest Conventiohs which were held in Maine on the subject of Sepa- ration, li is extracted from the '•'' Collections of the Massachu- setts Historical Society^'^^ vol.4, page 25 c^. seq, and although the author's name dot-s not appear, his authority is doubtless to be relied on, or it would not have obtained a place in those collec- tions. Notwithstanding the subject died away, after these un- successful efforts, with the expiration of the Convention in 1787 or 8, it appears again to have been revived, so early as 1791, when memorials were gotten up and presented to the Legisla- ture in the winter session of 1792. The question was there considered a very serious one, and ended in a recommendation to the people of Maine to vote on the subject at their town meet- ings in M'^y ensuing — when they decided against it. It was not however, suffered long to sleep, as will be seen by the doc- uments relating to the Conventions held at Portland in 1793 and 1794,which were among the papers of the late Judge Dummer, 24 278 who was Secretary of the last mentioned Convention, the pro- ceedings of which, it is believed, have never before been pub- lished. This Convention, it appears, was adjourned from June to October, and from October to June 28th, 1796, when an *' Address" was prepared and signed by *' William Gorham, President,'* and attested by ** Salmon Chase, Secretary, pro tern, in the absence of Mr, Dummer,^^ which makes a pamphlet of 31 pages. They therein request the people to "consider the subject at their annual meeting in April next," and adjourned to receive the votes. What was the issue of this request or the adjourned meeting, we have no records to shew. Many subsequent trials were made to effect a separation, prior to the Brunswick Convention in 1816; but they all proved abortive, until the late experiment, which has been made at a most favor- able period— the effects of which will be such, we sincerely hope, as to dispel the apprehensions of the most cautious, and realize the anticipations of the most sanguine. The proceedings ffiwo Conventions, held at Portland^ to consider the expediency of a separate Government in the District of Maine. [Collected from the original Files and Records.J From the latter part of the year 1784, to the autumn of 1766, a separation of the territory east of Pascataqua river, from the government of Massachusetts, was a general topic of conversa- tion among the inhabitants. During this time, the Falmouth Gazette, then the only newspaper that was published in the District of Maine, was crowded with addresses to the people up- on the subject. Clergymen, physicians, lawyers, and farmers, seemed engaged in accelerating the event. They all employed both their pens and their private influence, in convincing their fellow citizens of the propriety and advantages of becoming a distinct member of the Union. At the time I now speak of, there were also a number of res- pectable opposers of this measure. These, generally speaking, were either those gentlemen who were concerned in trade, and feared an interruption in their commercial connexions, or such as held offices under the government, and feared the consequen- ces of a new appointment. In this, as in most other cases of political experiment, the opinion of each party was decided by a prospect of their own, rather than the public interest. To this, however, there were doubtless some exceptions. It is difficult to discover the secret motives by which mankind are actuated : 279 but from a personal acquaintance with the views and principleu of the leaders upon both sides of the question, I think 1 may be excused in saying, that they were both in some degree inflaenc- ed by a prospect of private advantage. When the subject first caine before the public, the great bo* dy of the people seemed to be indifferent as to the event ; and although they afterwards became more interested, they never exceeded the bounds of moderate zeal. They were under no oppression. Many inconvenience?, arising from their remote situation from the seat of government, might doubtless have been removed by a well -administered government of their own. But to bring them into the measure upon this ground, there vvas not a single material to work with, but reason, and the dispassion- ate application of it to their particular circumstances. What was the probability of success from the use of this, I leave to the judgment of those who are best acquainted with the instruments by which the uninformed are commonly governed. I shall not attempt to collect ihe arguments which were ad- dressed to the people, by those who wrote in the Falmouth Ga- ^-ette ; because, to exhibit a complete view of them would re- quire a lengthy discussion, and because I shall have occasion to mention the substance of them among the doings of the Conven- tion, which were collected and published under the title of '* grievances.'* Atter the subject had been lengthily and thoroughly examin* ed, in public and in private, it became necessary to devise and adopt some plan, which, when put in operation, would bring the business to a point. With respect to thi«, there was some di- versity oi opinion. Individuals were averse tu any active step, lest they should be congidered as officious. The great extent of ihe district rendered it extremely difhcult to put the people in motion, in any regular and orderly melSod. At length a num- ber of persons signed a paper, and gave it to the printers of^lhe Falmoulh Gazette, requesting them to publish a notification to the inhabitants of the district, to meet at Falmouth, for the pur- pose of holding a conference upon the proposed separation. This notification was accordingly published in the above mentioned Gazette of the I7th of September and 1st of October, 1785, and is in the following words, " Agreeable to a request made and signed by a large and respectable number of persons to the printers of th)s Gazette, the inhabitants of the three counties of York, Cumberland and Lincoln, are hereby notified, that so ma* 280 ny of them as are inclined, or can conveniently attend, are re- quested to meet at the meeting house of the Rev. Messrs Smith and Deane, in Falmouth, on Wednesday the fifth day of Octo- ber next, to join in a conference, then and there to be held, on the proposal of having the said counties erected into a separate GOVERNMENT ; and if it should be thought best, to form some plan for collecting the sentiments of the people on the subject, and pursue some orderly and regular method of carrying the same into effect." In consequence of this publication, about tliiriy persons from the town ot Falmouth and its vicinity convened at the time and place therein appointed. They entered upon the discussion of their business ; the result of which wa?, that a circular letter should be printed, signed, and forwarded by a committee to the several towns and plantations in the district, requesting them to send delegates to meet in a Ci^nvenlion to be held at the time, place, and for the purpose mentioned in the circular letter ; the copy of which (with the names of the committee) may be seen in the appendix, No. I. In this manner the first Convention for considering this im- portant subject, was brou2;ht together. When we consider the difficulty and hazard which commonly attended the assembling of bodies of people, for the avowed purpose of determining upon the expediency of withdrawing themselves from the government they are under, we must admit that the method adopted in this instance was very unexceptionable. There was an open appli- cation to the people, to attend, or not attend the proposed con- ference, as they saw fit. There were no insinuations, in any manner, propagated to the prejudice of the existing government ; but on the contrary, every step was proposed to be taken in an *• orderly and peaceable manner ;" and their right to assemble in this manner, they considered as founded on the first clause tf the nineteenth article of the bill of rights. Under these impres- sion*, the Convention proceeded to organize themselves. They accordingly made choice of the Hon. William Gorham, Esq, for their President, and Stephen Longfellow, jun * for their clerk. They then voted to choose a committee to examine the returns of the delegates, who reported that the following gentlemen were duly returned, viz. COUNTY OF YORK. Wells, John Storer, Esq. ; Buxton, Samuel Knight, Nathaniel Hill ; Bronmjield, Henry Young Brown, Samuel Haywood ; • Judge Longfellow, of Gorham* 2B1 Pryehurg, J o^Q[)h Fry, Esq. Paul Langdoo, Daniel Fessendea. Isaac Walker, Nathaniel Merrill. COUNTY OF CUMBERLAND. Falmouth, Peleg Wadsworlh, Ste|^)hen Hall, Samuel Freeman, John W:^i5e, Enoch llsley, E^q'rs. ; Scarborough, William Thompson, E-q. ; Gorham Edmund Phiiiney, William Goriiam, Stephen Longteliow, juu. ; (.'upeEiizabeth, J^mes Leach ; J^Few- Gloucester, J oim Meui I ; Gray, Jedediah Cobb. COUNTY OF LINCOLN. Georgetown, Wiliinm Liihgow, E-q Daniel M'Fadden ; Topskam, Scimuel Thompson, E-q. ; Newcastle, Samuel Nich- ols, E>q. ; Bristol, William Jones, Esq. ; Hallo-well, Daniel Coney ; Vassalborough , Dennis Getchiil ; Winslow, Zimri Haywood ; fVinthrop. Jonathan Whiting ; Plttstown, Reuben Colburn ; Lewiston, Lemuel Cumings. Th-e only vole ot any importance that was passed at this ses- sion L'f tlu' Convention vvas,thal •' a committee of nine be chos- en to make out a statement of the grievances the three coun- ties labour under, and also an estimate of the expense of a sepa- rate i^overnment, and compare the same with the expense of the government we are now under." The Convention was then ad- journed ior a day, in order to receive the report of this commit- tee, which was completed, made and accepted, and together witjj an addition to the report, is contained in the appendix, No. U. This report was ordered to be printed, signed by the president, and transmitted to the people, for the purposes men- tioned in the vote, inserted in the above-mentioned paper at the bottom of the list of grievances. The Convention was then ad- journed to the first WV,dnesday of September following. The original files and journals of this session contain nothing more than what has been mentioned, that respects the general subject. But il may not be amiss to mention some occurrences relative to their mode of doing the business. A motion was made by Mr. Thompson, of Scarborough, that the mode of voting should be by towns. This motion did not obtain ; and the Convention voted that each delegate should have a vote. The town of Falmouth had made choice of the five gentle*^ njen whose names are mentioned in the list of delegates for that town, and then adjourned their meeting to receive the leport of a comrailtee which they had appointed to prepare iheir instruc- ilions. At this adjournment, the town reconsidered their vote 24* 282 lor the choice of delegate?, dismissed the article and dissolved the meeting. But uotwilhslandini^ this, Stephen Hall, E>q. one of the delegates, took his seat in the Convention ; and a vote was passed, that the other delegates from Fahnouth had a right to a seat, and a committee was appointed to intortn them that such was the opinio^) of the Convention. There is also among the files of the Convention, a letter from the town of Northyarmouth, expressing their reasons for not joining in the choice of delegates, and for the unanimous opinion of that town against a separation. There is likewise a letter on file from Daniel M'Fadden, one of the delegates for Georgetown, excusing himself from attending the Convention, and advising them to prepare, and offer to the people, the form ol government which ihej proposed to recom- mend. He gives an opinion in this letter, that ** a house of representatives would be sufficient to rule," saying, that '^ there might be as wise men in the house as in the chajr,and that busi- ness might be done much quicker." in consequence ol the adjournment of the Convention to the first Wednesday of September, and the recommendation that a new delegation should take place, and meet at the same time,on the 6th of September 1786, there were two Conventions assem- bled at Falmouth. The difficulty which this occasioned, was removed b}^ the first vote of the new Convention. After organ- izing themselves by the unanimous re-election of the president and clerk of the former Convention, a " coalescence" of the two was immediately voted. Being thus united, the returns of the new delegates were examined, and the following is the list of them : COUNTY OF YORK Bemick, Dr. Nathaniel Low ; Jrundel, Thomas Perkins ; Fry eouroh, Moses Ames ; Brownjield,^ Henry Young Brown, Esq James Haywood. COUNTY OF CUMBERLAND. Poiilawl, Peleg VVadsworth, Samuel Freeman, Stephen Hall, Daniel Davis, Stephen Codman ; Scrtr6orow^/i, Joshua Fabyan , Cape Eiizahethy\j^T7A\\di Dei!ano,Cary ]VrLeil3n,*'James Leach? Gor/^im, * William Gofham, President, ^Edmund Phinney, ^Ste- phen Lr^ngfeliow, jun. Cltrk ; Standish, Seth Spring ; JS^ew- Gloucester,'^ John Merrill • Gmi/, *Jeded tab Cobb ; Brunswick, Aaron ijinckley. COUNTY OF LINCOLN. Uancock, John Philbrooh ; Fflmi/6or3W^/?, ^Dennis Getchel/ ; 283 Wimlow, *^imri Haywood ; Topsham, *Samue! Thompson j jB/tVio/,*VV iilidiTi Jones ; j\€?a?cas//f *6aniuel Nichols ; Hollow- ell, *Damel Coney ; Bath, Dummei Sewall j PiUstotiy *Keu- ben Coburn ; Winthrop, Jo^hii-^ Bean. *JVlembersofthe former Convention. The business transatied by thus Conveniiun, uhich was only two (Jays in session, broOght the subject to a considerable de- gree of forwardness. They voted, that *' In the opinion of this Converition, the counties ot York, Cumberland, and Lincoln, labour under grievances." ** That it is the opinion of this Convention, the grievances stated by the former Convention (i^xcept the filth article) are re- al grievances, that the counties oi York, Cumberland, and Lin- coln now labour under." " That a committee of nine be appointed, to consider what further grievances said counties labour under " The report of this committee does not at all comport with the nature of their commission. As to the additional list of griev- ances, which they were appointed to exhibit, the report merely states that there were such, which demanded the serious atten- tion of the Convention ; but that they could not at that time ** undertake io enumerate the muUiplicity of them ;'* and, upon the whole, referred the Convention to the list fumerly published. But they proceeded to say, '* that injustice to their constitu- ents, they esteemed it their duty to inform the Convention, that they could not devise any mode which would substantially and eflPectually remove the evils cotnplained of, except the citizens of said counties were invested with the privilege of legislating for themselves." ^.nd they further gave it as their opinion, that ** the Convention should draught a petition to the General Court, requesting their consent, that the said counties should be erected into a separate government ; and that the same, accom- panied with an address to the people upon the subject,should be transmitted to the inhabitants of the several towns and planta- tiots for their consideration." This report was readily accepted ; and a committee was thereupice of delegates ; and it is natural to suppose, that vrhen tfaiese delegates returned to their constituents, they flatter- 286 ed them with hopes of relief from a government of their owm. These hopes, to be sure, must have been delusive to the last de- gree, if a speedy removal of their burthens was the object of the people. If, therefore, this Convention was the means of pre- venting an insurrection in this part of the country, it is an addi- tional proof that good often comes out of evil. Upon the whole, I am inclined to believe that it was. For, without meaning to derogate from the majesty of the people, I may be excused in saying, that they are often led by appearance, rather than real- ity ; and that, for this reason, they are sometimes deceived and imposed upon by those whom they depute for their servants, es- pecially in matters of opinion. It might, therefore, be very ea- sy to persuade them, that a Convention(the very name of which is a consolation to the discontented multitude) possessed both the disposition and the power to administer the requisite as- sistance. From the 31st of January, 1787, the Convention was adjourn- ed to the 5th of September following. Another attempt was then made to collect the sentiments of the people. A vole wag passed, appointing a committee to prepare an ** address and sub- scription paper," which was to be forwarded to the people, in- forming them of the state of the petition (which had been pre- sented to the legislature) and requesting them to ** feign for or against a separation.'* But there were never any returns of it , and from this lime, the whole business, and the Convention it- self gradually fell asleep. There were five or six other adjourn- mtnls ; but no business was done, and none of the members at- tended, except the president and clerk, and the members for Portland. At the last of these adjournments, there were only, three of the Portland members present. One of them was chos- en president pro ten^pore, another clerk ; the third made a mo- tion for an adjournment ; but as there was no one present but the president and clerk to second the motion, the Convention expired, not only without a groan, but without a single mourner to weep over its remains ! APPENDIX.— No. L At a meeting of a number of respectable inhabitants of the counties of York, Cumberland, and Lincoln, at Messrs. Smith and Deane's meeting house, in Falmouth, on the fifth of Octc- b€;r instant— agreeably to a notiiicalion published in the Fal*. 287 mouth Gazette, of September 17tb, and 1st October, instant, ia order to forna some plan for collecting the sentiments of said in- habitants, on the subject of said counties being formed into a separate state : - Voted, That the subscribers be a committee to apply to the several towns and plantations in said counties, requesting them to send delegates to meet at said meeting-house, on the first Wednesday of January next, at ten o'clock, A. M. to consider the expediency of said counties being formed into a separate state ; and if, after mature consideration, it should appear to them expedient, to pursue ftome regular and orderly method of carrying the same into effect." Pursuant to the above vote, we the committee aforesaid, here- by request the inhabitants of—, to choose a delegate or delegates, to meet at the time and place above-mentionftd,for the purpose aforesaid. PELEG WADSWORTH, Chairman. STEPHEN LONGFELLOW, Jm WILLIAM GOKHAM, STEPHEN HALL, JEREMIAH HILL, JOSHUA FABIAN, HENRY Y. BROWN, Falmouth, October 1 5thy 1 786. To the inhabitants of No. IL At a Convention of delegates from a number of towns in tb« counties of York, Cumherhud, and Lincoln, held at Falmouth, on the first Wednesday of January, 1786 : — The Hoh. Wiiliam Gorhara, Esq. was chosen President, Mr. Stephen Longfellow, jun. Clerk. It was then voted, that a committee of nine be chosen to state the grievances, which the three counties of York, Cumberland, and Lincoln labour under, as connected with the other counties in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, from which they are separated by the intervention of the state of New-Hampshire ; and also to form an estimate of the expense of a separate gov- ernment, and compare the same with the expense of the govern- ment they are now under — who reported as follows : — That from their local situation, their interests are different ; and consequently cannot be fully understood, particularly at- tended to and promoted in their present connexion j whereby 288 tbeir growth and rmportance are prevented, which retards that of the United States. That the General Court of the Commonwealth of Massachu- setts being so large, and their business so various and perplex- ing, unavoidably renders it inconvenient and expensive to the inhabitants of those counties, both with regard to their members at court, and suitors ibr justice. That applications to the supreme executive authority, being frequently necessary, are attended with great expense ; to the injury and prejudice of the inhabitants of those counties. That the business of the Supreme Judicial Court, from the extent of territories, is so great as renders a proper arrangement in that department exceedingly difficult : and to repair to their office at Boston is very expensive. That the present regulations of trade operate unequally, and against those counties, by reducing the price of lumber, vvhich is detrimental to those that are employed in making the same ; while they tend to the emolument of many in the other part of the Commonwealth. That we consider it as a matter of grievance that a consider- able part of the inhabitants of these counties are deprived of a vote in the House of Representatives, where all money bills o- riginate ; and there appears to be no prospect of a speedy re- lief. That the present mode of taxation, by polls and estates, is very injurious to this territory, as the inhabitants cannot be em- ployed to the same advantage, and their stocks are not so profit- able ; neither can their lands be so advantageously improved, as in the other part of the Commonwealth, where they enjoy a milder climate. That the excise and impost acts operate grievously on the in- habitants of those counties, as they have not in general the ad- vantage of orchards; and the keeping of sheep is difficult and expensive, by the hazard from wolves and other beasts of prey, and the great length of their winters. That the act imposing a duty on deeds, &c. operates une- qually, by reason of the more frequent conveyances of real prop- erty in a new than m old settled countries. That the necessary attendance upon the state treasury is in- convenient, expensive and grievous. The committee have taken a view of the several constitutions of the United States ; and it om some calculations they have 289 made, are of opinion that a separate government may be adopt- ed, whereby a very considerable part of the expense, now paid by these counties, may be saved : — But not knowing what form of government the people in said counties would choose, in case of a separation, they have not thought proper to report any es^ limate thereon. Voted, To subjoin the following to the report of the above committee. As a full representation is supposed to be the most likely way to obtain a redress of grievances, we hope the several towns in these counties will pay that attention which our peculiar cir- cumstances require, by a general choice of members to repre- sent them in General Court the next year. Voted, That the report of the above committee, with what is subjoined thereto, be signed by the president of this Convention, and transmitted to the several towns and plantations in the counties of York, Cumberland, and Lincoln, requesting them to choose a delegate or delegates, at their annual meeting in March next, or at such other meeting as they shall think proper, to meet in Convention on the first Wednesday of September next, at the meeting-house in the first parish of Falmouth, at ten o'- clock. A. M. to consider of the grievances the inhabitants of said counties labour under ; and to adopt and pursue some orderly and peaceable measure to obtain relief; and also requesting said inhabitants to certify to said Convention the number of voters for and against said choice of delegates. WILLIAM GORHAM; President. No. HI. Proceedings of the Convention^ held at P or timid ^ September 6th, 1786. At a Convention of delegates from a number of towns and plantations, in the three counties of York, Cumberland, and Lin- coln, held at Portland, on Wednesday the 6th day of September 1786 — for the purpose of considering the grievances which the inhabitants oi said counties labour under, and adopting some or- derly and peaceable measure to obtain relief. — Hon. William Gorham, Esq. being first chosen president, and Mr. Stephen Longfellow, jr. Clerk. Votedy That the folIowing.address and form of a petition there- in referred to, be transmitted to the several towns and planta- tions in the said three counties^ as soon as may be. 25 290 Friends and Brethren » Agreeably to the duties of our appointment, we have taken into serious consideration the grievances that the inhabitants of these three counties labour under ; and, after a close attention to this important subject, are clearly of opinion, that they can- not be remedied ir) tbeir present connexion with the other part of the Cottimonwealth. Our local situation, the nature ofour com- merce, and the jarring of our interests, render it necessar)-, in o-der to an effectual rennoval of then), that we should be erected into an independent state, The expediency of this measure has engaged the attention of the public for a long time — it has been considered, as ii un- doubtedly ought to be, a subject of the greatest importance. Two Conventions have had it before tbem,and have careiully attended to the arguinents which h^ve been offered on both sides of the question. We now communicate to you the result of our present delib- erations ; and we submit it to your wise and prudent consider- ation. You feel yourselves distressed, and your distresses will in- crease until you legislate foryouselves. — In this there i< no great difficulty Government is a very simple, easy thing. Mysteries i:) poliliiiki-a4H2^ mere absurd itiejj — invented entirely to grntify the ambition of princes and desigr jng men — to aggrandize those who govern, at the expense of those who are governed. But the end of government is the good of the people — the on- ly design of its institution is to «ecure to them, as far as possi- ble, the blessings of life. We therefore, injustice to our con- stituents, to ourselves, to the good citizens ot the three counties, and of the Commonwealth at large, address you upon the sub- ject ; and transmit to you a form of a petition to the General Court, requesting them to relinquish ail right of jurisdiction in this eastern territory ; and to give their consent that the same may be formed into a separate state. And we do earnestly call upon every tVee citizen within the said counties, to take the same into his most serious considera- ation ; and each one, for himself, give his vote for or against a separation. And we also de-^ire each town and p'antation, within the said counties, to meet for the purpose ; and transmit their doings to thi=; Convention, at their adjournmrnt. Foted, That those towns and plantations that have not before the honorable Court, and request that they would relinquish all right of juris- diction over said counties and consent that they may be formed into a separate government, as they apprehend this the only ad- equate remedy to the difficulties complained of. And while they are taking this peaceful measure to obtain a redress of their great political evils, by asking for a separation from the other part of the Commonwealth, they do not entertain an idea of throwing off the weight of the public debt, at this time lying upon the government at large, or to prevent the other 292 part of Ihe Commonwealth from having their just proportion of the unappropriated lands ; but, like friends aiii! brethren, most ardently wish to have all matter? adjusted upon the broadest ba- sis of equity and fair dealing. Therefore your petitioners humbly pray, tliat your honours would take their circumstances into your wise consideration, and adopt such measures as you in your wisdom may think fit ; and they, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Proceedings o/trvo Coyiveniions on the subject of Separation in \193and 1794. At a meeting of a number of gentlemen from various parts of the District of Maine, holden at the court-house in Portland, October 18th, 1793, in consequence of a printed notification in the words following, viz : — *' NOTICE- ** As the tinie of revising the constitution of this Common- wealth is fast approaching, and as it seems the general opinion that a separation of Maine must then take place ; it is earnestly requested that as many gentlemen as conveniently can, will at- tend at the court-hou.^e to morrow evening, at six o'clock, to consider and adopt such measure's as shall appear most expedi- ent to effect the above-mentioned important object. Thursday, October llth, 1793. The Honorabhi Pelkg Wadsworth, Esq. was chosen Chair- man^ and Samuef. Freeman, Esq. Clerk, Voted^ 1. As the opinion of this meeting, that the tiine of re- vising the constitution of the Commonwealth, will he a proper time tor erecting the ^\e eastern counties into an independent government. Voted, 2. That as that time is fast approaching, and a« it is probable the sentiments of the people may ha^e differed from what they were when they were last collected, it is exj)edienl that the sense of the people of the said five counties be again taken upon the sabfect. Voted, 3. That 'the Hon. Peleg Wadsworth, ETionwealth. Inconsequence of such advertisement, a considerable number of gentlemen met at the court house on Friday last, and passed the votes which we herewith send you. Ai:iceably to the thiid vole, we do hereby request that you would call a meeting tor the choice of de'egates to form a Con- ventitJi at the time and place, and for the purposes therein men- tioned. We flatter ourselves you will acquiesce in this proposal, as it is of ij^portance to have the vo'ce of all the people in the District ; and we h'«pe by this fAep it will be fully obtained. The tinie we have lor a full discussion of this subject is short ; and this we presume will afford a good reason for adopting this plan ; and for removing any objections that might otherwise a- rise in the minds of any, as to the manner in which it orig'nat- ed — especially when it is considered, that in a maMer of this kind there can be no rule for any particular mode of proceeding. We are with respect, gentlemen, your most obedient, humble servants. By order of the committee PELEG WADSWORTH, Chairman. At a Convention of delegates from the following tawns ih the counties ot York, Cumberland and Lincoln, viz. t 25* 294 From York — Fryeburg,Brownfield and Waterborough ; Cwtw- icr/flwc?*- Portland, Falmouth, Gorham and Hebron ; Lincoln — Georgetown, Hallowell, Bowdoin, Winlhrop, Readfield, Mon- mouth, Mount Vernon and Winslow — Appointed to take into consideration the expediency of erecting the five eastern counties, commonly called " the District of Maine," into a separate government. The towns in said counties not having generally appointed delegates for the purpose aforesaid, the delegates assembled as aforesaid, first took into consideration the expediency of enter- ing on the business of their appointment ; and having contem- plated the inclement season of the year, and other circumstan- ces which may have prevented such appointments — having al- so received communications from several towns and other pla- ces which sent delegates, and considered wbat appeared to be the sentim.ents of the people in various parts of the District, de- termined to proceed to the consideration of the measure pro- posed. They accordingly appointed Samuel Freeman, Esq. Clerk, and the Hon. Daniel Cony, Esq. Chairman of the Convention ; and then appointed a committee to consider of the matter, and report what was proper to be done ; whose report being made to the Convention, was read, amended and accepted, as fol- * Jows, viz. Resolved, That it be, and hereby is recommended to the sev- eral towns and plantations in the counties of York, Cumberland, and Lincoln, to choose delegates to meet in Convention at Port- land, on the third Wednesday of June next, to take into consid- eration the expediency of erecting the said three counties of York, Cumberland and Lincoln into a separate government. The result of their deliberations to be laid before their constit- uents. The Convention ground this resolution on the following rea- sons, viz. 1. That in the opinion of the Convention, the great extent of the five eastern counties has beretufore operated as an objection against the forming of the same into a separate State ; audit doth not appear that they nre at this tinie,uniled in the measure. 2. That the counties of Hancock and Washington have man- ifested no inclination to separate themselves from the present gove^nmen^ 3. That in the opinion of the Convention, a majority of the '^nhabitaints of Cumberland and Lincoln wish for a separation ; 293 amd that they may be as well accommodated by a separation of the three counties, as of the five ; and those of the county of York, nr.uch better. 4. That the said three counties of York, Cumberland and Lincoln, are sufficiently extensive and populous for a distinct State, and more so than several of the Slates in the Union. [Dissentients — Hon Josiah Thatcher, Esq. Mr. Samuel Wal- do, and Capt. Daniel Tucker.] Foted, That the proceedings of the Convention be signed by the chairman, and attested by the clerk; and printed copies thereof transmitted by the clerk to the selectmen of the several towns, and assessors, committees, or principal inhabitants of the several plantations, in the said three counties. DANIEL COl^Y, Chairman, Attest—SATAVEL Freeman, Clerk, At a Convention of delegates convened at Portland, the third Wednesday of June 1794, the following members were return- ed :— FROM YORK COUNTY. Fryehurg, Moses Ames ; Browtifield, Henry Y. Brown ; Biddeford^ Prentiss Mellen, Jeremiah Hill ; Parsonsfield, Thomas Parsons ; Sudbury Canada, (^Bethel) John York. CUMBERLAND. Fa/mowi/i, Nathaniel Wilson, John Quimby ; Standish, John Dean ; Portland, Thomas Motley, Salmon Chase. Col. James Lunt,Williarn Symms,John Bagley ; Gor/iam,William Gorham, Edmund Phinney, George Lewis. LINCOLN. Hallowcll, Nathaniel Dummer ; Readfield^ John Hubbard ; Winthrop, Nathaniel Fairbanks ; Green, Benjamin Morrell ; Georgetown, John Rogers ; Bowdoin, Samuel Tibbet ; Lewiston and Gore, Joel Thompson ; West-Pond, Joel Richardson. Nathaniel Dummkr, Esq. was appointed Secretary, and William Gohham, Esq. President. A committee of three from each county was appointed to take the subject matter of their meeting into consideration and re- port what wa? proper to be done* This committee consisted of VVm. Gorham, Nathaniel Dummer, Henry Y. Brown, Thomas Par*ons, Prentiss Mellen, William Symms, Salmon Chase,John Hubbard and Nathaniel Fairbanks. Adjourned to 10 o'clock to morrow. 296 Thursdlaj, June 19»h, ihe Convention met accordinsj to ad- Jourtiment, the cuinmiltee reported progress and had leave to sit again, and the Convention adjourned. Friday, June 20fh, the committee made a report which was read and considered by paragraphs, and accepted ; and there* upon, ordered, that the address submitted hy the comn ittee be signed by the President and Secretary. It was then voted. that the statement and calculation made by the committee be refer- red to the adjournment — that 300 copies of the same be print- ed and forwarded to the towns and plantations with the ad- dies? ; that a committee of three from each county be ap- pi inted to dislrit)ute them ; and iVentiss Mellen, Henry Y. Brown, Thomas Parsons, Wm Gorham, Thomfls Motley, John Dean, Nath