! LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OP CALIFORNIA. DOCUMENTS Class DEPT. mm >,c» Y^« M^^A REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE APPOI^n^EI) FEBRUARY. 18^; TO NYESTIGATE AND REPORT UPON Air IN MANUFACTURES, TRAlu. AND INSURANCE^ N CANADA. SUBMITTED TO THE HoL'SB OF COMXONS BY TfiE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE. ^^ALLACK, M.P. lOth May, 1888 SECOND SESSION, SIXTH PARLIAMENT -OTTAWA:— I'LiiS iEij r V v^v ;.-*%!^t7-^''''^ , > ^ y^^ m REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMIHEE APPOINTED 29TH FEBRUARY, 1888, TO INVESTIGATE AND REPORT UPOI ALLEGED COMBINATIONS IN MANUFACTURES, TRADE AND INSURANCE IN CANADA. it Stihmitied to the House of Commons by the Chairman of the Committee, N. 0. WALIACE, M.P. 16th May, 1888. SECOND SESSION, SIXTH PAKLIAMBNT. OT.TAWA; PMNTHD BY MACLEAN, ROGBE & CO., WELLUT^ STREET. 1888. tf LNtrtAL ENcHAL ^o-J v^^V K^ .<«* CONTENTS. The Committee's Report - - - - PP- 3-ia Number of witnesses exanjined and subjects enquired into,* 3. Manufacture of watch cases in Canada threatened with extinction, 3. The parties to and the origin of the Sugar Combination — The several agreements between the Grocers' Guild and the Sugar Eefiners as to the extent to which the Eefineries would discriminate against dealers who would not become members of comoination, 3, Secrecy enjoined upon members — Combination extended to control the sale of tobacco and other articles, 4. The Wholesale Grocers' Guild obnoxious to the public interests — Gradual development and extension of the Grocers' Combination, 5. Combinations for controlling the prices of coal — Two very different constitutions purporting to be for guidance of one association — Despotic character of the Toronto Coal Combination in the exaction of oaths of obligation, tines and violations of oath condoned by pay- ment of fines, 5. Deception of coal combinations in dealing with public tenders, 6. Agricultural Implements and Barley, 6. Coffin-makers and Undertakers' Combina- tion — extent and arbitrary character of, 6. Manufacturers of Cordage and Binding Twine — combination amongst, 6. Canadian Iron Founders' Association, founded in 1865 — Penalties provided for breaking combination prices in Stoves — Secrecy imposed upon Members, 8. Oatmeal Millers' Combination and plan of operations, 9, Biscuits and Confectionery — Combination in, 9. Combinations of Fire Insurance Cos., 9. Number of insurance companies in the Combination and how managed — Driving best class of risks to the United States for insurance — danger to share- holders in Canadian Joint Stock Companies, 10. Eggs, combination to control the purchase and sale of, how operated, 10. Section I. — Sugar and Groceries f 11-144 *• II. — Natural Products - - - .... 145-322 " III.— Manufactures 323-420 " lY.— Insurance 421-498 " Y.— Exhibits 501-743 Index -- -- 745 George Lightbomid, Grocer, Montreal - - - 1I-39 Origin of the sugar combination, 11. First meeting of the Grocers' Guild with the sugar refiners, for conference and agreement entered into, 11. The first agreement found insufficient and further discrimination demanded, followed by the meeting in June, 1887 ; the Eefiners' readiness to support the combination and additional advance agreed upon, 12. Importation of sugars, for a time, successful against the * All numbers denote pages, unless otherwise expressed. t In accordance with the classification of the evidence in relation to subjects, " Biscuits" should appear under the head of " Manufactures," but as biscuits are staples in grocers' stock, the evidence on "Biscuits" was so closely interwoven with that upon "Sugar and Groceriee," it wtg found impossible to separate them. 3— a 102483 iV EVIDENCE. CONTENTS. oombination, 12. Meeting of the Guild with the Eefiners, 16th December, and a third discrimination agreed upon, 12. Forced to purchase yellow sugars, 12. Terms of discount, 12. Settled discrimination against outside dealers — all the refineries of Canada in the combination, 13, ii2. Conditions of admission to the combination, 14, 18. A matter of opinion as to effects of tariff, 14. Importation of Scotch refined sugars and coniparative prices, 15. Definite objections to combinations, 16. Profits, 17. Comparison of cost of sugar from the Canada refineries to members of the com- bination, with cost to outside dealers, 17. Combinations as they effect the public and increase of cost to the consumer, 17. Combination deprives of individual free- dom in business, 18, 19. Mutual advantage of combination to refiner and merchant, 18. The combination extended to various articles, 19, 23. The Tobacco combina- tion and advance in price, 19, 28, 24. Cost of sugar increased to the consumer and possible further increase, 20. Forced into the combination, 20. Eefiners' discrimi- nation illustrated by rates, 20, 29. Refiners fix the price of sugars and their prices uniform, 21. Freight and competing points — freight how regulated to customers, 21. Moncton refinery refuses to sell sugar on usual terms except by consent of Guild, 21. Suggestion of remedy to dissolve combinations, 22, 24. Tobacco combination abso- lute, 23. Sugar combination a chief grievance, 25. Grocers' profits on matches, ■&©., 25. Conditions of importation of sugar as a means against combination, 27. The refiners coerced by the Guild, 28. Combination to fix prices a conspiracy — a legal opinion, 28. J. A. Mathewson, Grocer, Montreal .... 39-35 Origin in Montreal and subsequent extension of the sugar combination, 29. The right of personal liberty in business curtailed, 29, 30, 32. Objections to the combination based upon its written constitution as cited, 29. The Montreal combination enlarged to a " Lominion Guild," 30. A risk, fighting the combination, 30. The sugar com- bination a conspiracy — prices raised and loss to non-combiners, 31. Toronto grocers in Montreal and the culmination of the 6th July, including the refiners, 31. Impor- tation of sugars and the duties — December meeting, 31* Increased price and low- ered quality of sugar under combination — heavy weight barrels, 32. How to make sugar hold syrup, 32. An abundant supply of sugars in Montreal followed by heavy sugars — analysis of sugars, 33. Connection between the refiners and the merchants' sugar combination — discrimination by the refineries at Moncton and Halifax, 34. The presidents of the Canada Eefinery and of the Grocers' Guild explain, 34. Differ- ence in refiners' prices and terms to members and to non- members of the combina- tion, 35. G. A. Drummoud, Preside mt of Canada Sugar Eefining Company, Montreal ....... 35-55 Proposal of the Grocers' Guild agreed to, by the Canada refinery, viz., that white sugars from the refinery be charged ^ cent per pound less to members of the Guild than to non-members, 86, 37, 38, 44. The guild's second proposal agreed to, asking a discrimination by the refinery of ^ cent per pound against outside dealers, 36. The £nild furnishes a list of names of those who were privileged to purchase sugar on ^vored terms, 37. Original agreement between the Canada refinery and the guild, the refinery fixed price of sugar, and advance thereon fixed by mutual agreement, 37, 42. Eatio of white to yellow sugar sold, 37. Third agreement between the Canada refinery and the guild, refinery to discriminate against non-members of the combina- tion by charging an advance of ^ cent per pound on all sugars, white and yellow, and not allow them the customary discount for payment in 14 days, 38, 40 . The EVIDENCE. CONTENTS. Canada refinery becomes a parly in a combinatioa agreement, the obligations being mutual, 3S, 39, 40, 41, 43. Profits of wholesale dealers in the combination, under the agreement, on all shades collectively and white alone, 39, 49, 50. Purchase of yellow sugars included in the discrimination against dealers not in the combination, 40, 41. iNo arrangement between the refiners to fix prices — how their prices are made uniform, 41, 48, 51. In the case of a member of the guild breaking the agreement, 43. Control of the list of those entitled to buy sugar on the favored tarms, mutual, 45. Standard quality of sugar fully maintained in the Canada refinery, 47. Heavy weight barrels, cause of, 47. Sources from which the supply of raw sugars is obtained, 47. Eatio of beet-root sugar produced, to all others, 47. Annual sugar crop of Cuba, 47. Proportion of beet- root sugar to cane sugar, used in the Canada refinery, 47. Low grade sugars and glucose, 49. Cost of sugar increased to the con- sumer by the combination, 50. How prices of sugar from the Canada refinery may be influenced — competition, &o., 51. Profits and dividends of Canada refinery, 52. A temporary ai^reotnent between the refineries in Canada to prevent over production, dropped, 53. List of existing sugar refineries in Canada, 51. Expenditure and pro- daciug capacity, 54. Hands employed in the Canada sugar refinery and consump- tion of coal, 55. David Sinclair, Salesman to Canada Sdoar Eefinery - - 55-57 Confined to selling sugar at favored prices and terms to names on list (exhibit 1) not struck ofi", such list being furnished to him by the Wholesale Grocers Guild, 55. A case of discrimination acknowledged, 66. Not authorized to sell to anyone outside, the guild, 56. Prices issued weekly by the refiners are the prices to members of the guild only, an advance on ihese prices charged to all buyers not in the guild, 57. Prices to all members of the guild uniform, 57. Alexr. Donald Fraser, Grocer, Montreal - - - 58-69 Petition to Canada Sugar Eefinery from the Eetail Grocers' Association, Montreal, showing the injustice done the trade and consumers by the combination between the Sugar Guild and the Eefinery, paying tribute to middlemen, 58. Adverse discrim- ination by the Sugar Eefineries, under the Combination, in prices and discounts to the retail trade, 59. Freedom of purchase restricted, 60. Increase of price laid oa the consumer, 60, 62. Can. Eef. cancels an order previously accepted, 61. The Eetail Grocers' Association do not attempt the regulating of prices or terms, 61. Freedom to purchase in Canada and Europe contrasted, 61. Coadations of mem- bership in the Eetail Grocers' Association, 62. Cutting prices on one article and making up the loss on another, 6^. Objections to the Combination, 63. Fixed prices a mutual arrangement between the wholesalers and refiners, 63. Combi- nation extending, proposal to meet it, 64. Wholesale running into retail, 64. Free competition extinguished by the Combination, 65, 68, 69. Possibilities for further increase of price under combination, 65. Quality of imported sugars very good, 65. Weight of sugar barrels, 66. Possible remedies against combinations suggested, 66. Eetailers ask for equal terms in purchase, 67. The Eefiners the backbone of the Sugar Combination, 67. A protective duty to refining industry, 67. Combination secures a fixed profit independent of market values, 68. John Robertson, Grocer, Montreal - - - - €r9-81 The sugar combination defined, restricts cash purchases, 69. Two parties to a bargain, an old customer cut off, 69. Prices and terms before and after the combinar* 3— ai Ti EVIDENCE. CONTENTS. tion, compared, 70. Combn. has taken away the difference between buying a email and a large lot at one purchase, 71. List ot articles sold under combination, but all differing in terms from the sugar combine, 71, 72, 74, 80. All the combinations require an agreement to be signed or goods will not be furnished applicant, 71. The Bugar agreement the worst of several combinations enumerated, 73. Biscuit com- bination, 72, 75. Coercion, 78, 81. Suggested remedy against the sugar combn., 77. Assumed circumstances, 77, 78. Cutting prices, 78. Import duties and prices of sugars, 79. The refineries united to protect the sugar dealers' combination, 80. Traders excluded from purchase of certain goods except upon combn. terms, 80. Walter Paul, Grocer, Montreal - . - . 81-87 A ten years' direct purchaser from the refineries finds his supplies suddenly cut off and refused sugar on usual terms, 81. An explanation demanded, reply thereto by Sec. Mont. B. of T. with resolution ot the combination, adopted at Kingston 16 Nov., '87, ordering further restriction of sales, 81. Solicited to become a member of the combn., 82. On principle, all disapprove of combination, 84. Estimated loss to his business by the combn., 8.5. No notification of removal of name, 83. Wholesalers selling to con- sumers, 87. Should be no distinction in freedom to purchase direct from the manu- facturer, except on the basis of quantity at each purchase, 84. Combination injurious to consumer and retailer, 85. Privileged terms of purchase of sugar from ihe re- fineries, discount and prices, 84. Who profits by the combn., 85, 86. Existence of the combination depends upon the will of the refiners, 86. The combination arbitrary, 86. The sugar combination aflSliated with Montreal Board of Trade, 86. Mr. Paul recalled, 131. The staples of which biscuits are composed cheaper now than ever without any lowering in manufacturers' prices for biscuit for the last 15 years — improved machinery added, 131. Prices of biscuits in Montreal and New York compared — 20 to 25 p. c. higher in Canada than they should be, 132. Grocers ask for a change in customs regulations, 133. Combination in biscuits a misfortune, 134. Biscuit making an enormously large business, making excessive profits — flour and sugar about same in New York and Montreal, 135. Canadian l^rd cheaper than Chicago lard ; combination could be met by an Act declaring it conspiracy ; com- bination injurious to the country, 136. George Childs, Grocer, Montreal _ . - . 88-09 Witness a member of the Guild ; a statement ; demoralization of business asserted ; no apparent bankruptcies, 88. Eoason for organizing the Dominion Grocers' Guild ; first and second advances upon tobacco fixed, 89. Articles upon which the guild fixed prices, 90. Prices to consumers how fixed, 91, 97. The refineries fully re- presented at a meeting with the Guild and an agreement arrived at, 92. The parties in the combination, 93. Present descrimination at the refineries; in prices and dis- counts against such are not members of the Guild, 94. An unwritteh agreement, 95. Control of names upon the lists of privileged buyers, 96. A threat to the refiners, 92, 97. Customers used to fix prices ; the combination do this now, 97. All the refineries agree to accept the weekly price issued by the Canadian Eefinery ; Mr. Paul makes a correction, 99. W. B. Mathewson, Grooer, Montreal . - - - 99-100 Witness never sought to be or never was a member of a combination in sugar ; paid the Canadian Sugar Kefiniog Co. an extra quarter of a cent per pound on 900 barrels because not a member of the combination, 100. EVIDENCE. vil CONTENTS, Edgar A. Wills, Secretary Dominion Grocers' Guild, Toronto ..... 10O-IO2 and 117-134 Introductory remark, 100, List of names larnished to the refiners, to whom they are to sell oa the better terms, 101. Who formed the Dominion Grooers' Guild, daio and place of meeting, 101. Fixing the price of sugars discussed— con- tinuous efforts of the Guild to induce the refiners to enter upon an agree- ment, 101. Official history of the guild's action on the sugar question— dates and places of meeting, 117. Articles of requisition to the refiners — meeting at Montreal, 20th April, 1887, between the guild and the sugar refiners at which the refiuers agree to discriminate against such dealers as would not eater the combination, 118. Meeting at Montreal, 30th June, 187 — resolution asking the refiners not to sell white sugars to dealers who will not enter the combination — the Canada Eefining Co. consent — St. Lawrence JRofining Co. positively refuse to acjede to this, 119. Eesolution of the guild to increase the advance upon tobacco, 120. William Ince, President of the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, Toronto, 103-109 Sacc?8sive steps which led to the formation of the guild and its development into a combination, 102. Expenses of conducting business — guild's arrangement "with manufacturers of tobacco, 103. Guild fixes the advance on manufacturers prices which includes exci.-e duty, 104. The tobacco manufacturers a party in the combination, 105. Eates of excise duty — increase of combination advance from 3 to 4 cents per pound, 105. Credits and discounts as fixed by the combination — profits on sugar, lOfi Qialities of sugar — grocery trade of Toronto prosperous — profits on sugar improved by the combination, 107. The compact between the refiners and the guild to discriminate against dealers not in the combination — and the compact ■within the guild to sustain prices emphasized, 1U8. Consumers would get their sugar cheaper if the wholesale branch was abolished, and retailers could buy direct from the refineries, 108. The combination a guarantee to its members against the risks of business — profits a sure thing, 109. Charles P. Hebert, Vice President op the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, Montreal ...... io9-li3 The sugar agreement profitable to members of the combination — the Montreal branch of the grocers combination amalgamated with the Montreal Board of Trade, 109. The retail grocers have advanced their prices to consumers in correspondence with the advances fixed by the wholesale combination — consumer pays both advan- ces — shut out of the guild, out of business, 110. Eesolution unanimously adopted by the guild (meeting 30th June, p. 119) asking refiners not to sell white sugars to non-members of the sugar combination. 111. Combination in various kinds of spirituous liquors — other articles — several concentric combination circles. 111. W. W, Lockerby, Grocer, Montreal .... 112-lia Names of grocers in Montreal who expressed a desire to enter the sugar com- bination but did not, 112. W. H. Gillard, Grocer, Hamilton . . ^ - - 113-II4 Corroborates the testimony of Mr. Inee, president of the guild, in relation to profits and cost of handling goods, 113. Prices of sugar for several years — all the combinations in the wholesale grocery trade developed since 1884, 114. ▼ill EVIDENCE. CONTENTS, H. W. Sewell, Grocer, &o., Hamilton • - . - - 114-117 Eetail grocers making better piofits since the wholesale combination was inaugu- rated — prices steadier — less cutting, 115. W. B. Clay, Grocer, Galt -.-... 123-184 Experience in the fluctuating prices of sugars — opposed to uniform prices, 122. Doing well in business — the matter of discounts, 123. Sugar an article of necessity to retail grocers, 124. Patrick Baskerville, Grocer, Ottawa - - - 134-1S6 Signed the sugar agreement — name of his firm afterwards removed from the list by the guild, 124. No limit to the extent a combination may raise prices to. Knew nothing of his name being removed from the list until refused sugar on usual terms at the refinery, 125. Joseph Kavannah, Grocer, Ottawa - - - - 137-131 Prices of biscuits fi cm the manufacturers the same in 188*7-88 as in 1884. Biscuit flour now cheaper— prices of biscuit flour in diflferent years compared, 127. Sugar and other materials entering into biscuits cheaper now than in former years — prices of biscuits stationary — combination amongst biscuit manufacturers to sustain prices, 12*7 . Biscuit manufacturers in the combination designated — biscuits of the eame class made cheaper in New York than in Toronto — price lists compared, 128. A New Yoik firm delivers a better article of biscuit at a less price in Montreal after paying 20 per cent, duty, than biscuits of the eame kind can be bought for from the Canadian manufacturers in Toronto or Montreal, 129 A combination in confection- ary sent up price 1 J cent per pound at a bound, 130. Tobacco combination — refuse to purchase McDonald's tobacco because it was under combination— patronizes an independent tobacco company, 131. W. C. Gibson, Biscuit Manufacturer, Ottawa, - - 137-144 In biscuit makers' combination past six j ears, 137. Seat of the combination — con- fectioneries also included — objects of the combination — executive committee — piices —biscuit firms in the combination, 138. Quality of flour used — capacity and machi- nery—Canadian lard very superior to Chicago lard — ratio of lard to flour used, 139. Combination agreement signed — cost of flour— the combination control the manufac- turers in the matter of quality and price, 140. The biscuit agreement purely a matter of honor — no punishment for violation, 141. Freights — regulation prices mean, on board cars — OflScers of the combination, 142. Prime cost of manufacture, outside of biscuit ingredients used, 143. Elias Kogerg, Coal Dealer, Toronto - - 145-164 and 371-3DS Coal association amalgamated with the Toronto Board of Trade, as The Coal Branch of that board— two classes of coal dealers, 145. OflScers and executive committee of Coal Branch, 146. American coal companies from which purchased and points of ehipment for Toronto, 146. Controlling Cos., their prices uniform, 147. Coal Cos. sell only, for Toronto, to such dealers as are in the coal association, 148. Eeprcscnt- EVIDENCE. IX CONTENTS. atives of U.S. coal companies present in Toronto insist upon dealers forming a com- bination to sustain prices, l49. U. S. coal Cos. fix prices for their export sales monthly, 150. Prices in Toronto fixed by executive committee of coal branch, 151, 155, 157. Prices to Toronto dealers at various point? and dates — freight — cost of handling— profits, 151, 158, 160. Coal by rail, cost of — freight, 154. Total coal im- port into Toronto — Punishment by fines for cutting prices — P. Burns fined, his offence, 155, 162. Contracts by tender for coal, when and how fixed — premiums paid by party getting the contract, 156. Contract premiums, how divided — Mr. iiogers^ nothing to do with the waterworks coal contract, 156, 157. The executive committee how made up — all members of the association pledged to fidelity by oath, 157. Em- ployes also sworn to fidelity in maintaining prices, 158. The coal combination as affecting consumers, 159,163. Several fines enumerated — consequences to parties fined — in default of not paying fine supplies stopped — McConnell et alias, 161. Mr. ftogers, recalled, 271. About a sale of coal by Eogers & C3. to Keys & flallet, Wood bridge — a statutory declaration, 271, 275. Attendence of witness during 1887, at meetings of Toronto Coal Exchange, 273, 290, 300. Tender contracts of Toronto for 1886-87 — Hospital, Parkdale waterworks, &q.— who received the supplying of them — auction premiums paid into the pool — pool how made and how divided, 277, 297. Ontario Government tender, 279. Eebates allowed to importers, 280, 283, 284. Coal entries at Toronto Custom House — certain invoices not filed — in 1886, prices anthracite entered at, 281. Import cost of coal in 1886-87 — freights and other charges— retail prices, 283, 291, 295. Toronto city contract for 1886, and competing parties — oflScial communication with coal committee at Buffalo to stop supplies and who deputised to go — McConnell's fine and expulsion, 285, 300. Dominion trov- ernment contract at Toronto, 299. G. W. Wood, Secretary to the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade ------ 164-174* Enles and constitution of the Coal Branch — Origin of the combination, the promoters of it, 164 — The association that organized in 1883, the same body that subsequently araaigamed with the Board of Trade, as " The Coal Trade Branch " — Fines on mem- bers—Fines how. divided, the pool 165, 173. Waterworks and other contracts by tender with the city of Toronto, prices for tender fixed by the combination — auction of tenders — premiums for receiving contract paid into the pool — pool divided amongst the coal importers, less one-sixth — the public deprived of competition — proceedings ■within the executive secret, 166, 168, 173. The statutory declaration in obligation of members and employees — the oath binding in the matter of secrecy to be observed in relation to the business transacted in meetings, 167, 171. Elias Kogers renounces all interest or part, as a member of the combination, in the waterworks contract. 168. Prices fixed at which public tender would be filled — prices pitched at a higher rate to private citizens, 169. Formality offenders rendered abortive — prices for wood also fixed in certain cases, 170, 174. Public School, Hospital, Ontario Government coal tenders all manipulated alike by the combination, 170, 171 — Fines in relation to oaths 171. Terms on which the retail coal dealers purchase from the importers, 172. Executive committee now constituted, 173. List of members of the combina- tion in Toronto furnished to the secretary of the Anthracite Committee at Eochester —one whose name not on the list would not get coal — conditions of obtaining coal for import trade of Toronto — how to become a member of the Coal Branch, 174, Supplement to Mr. Wood's evidence. Exhibit 34, C. Peter Larmonth, Secretary, 0ttaw\ Coal Cartaqb Co. - 174-184 Ottawa Coal Cartage Co. chartered — membership — shares and capital 174, 177. The ooropany a combination on the " Trust " system which controls the import of coal to EVIDKNCE. CONTENTS. Ottawa and regulates the prices for retail to citizans— the methods of operation ex- plained—all the shareholders, directors — selling prices of coal fixed by these direc- tors, alias, the Cartage Co., 1*75, 178, 184. Profits of dealers realized by dividends, on a supposed capital, from the company's pool funds, 176, 180. Profits paid to several dealers not members of the Cartage Co. for past year's sales — quantity of coal handled 176, 177, i78, 180. Dividends on stock to shareholders not in business 177, 181, 182. Quantity sold and profit of the Cartage Company, 178, 181. Impor- tation cost of coal 179. The Coal Cartage Company's capital— net profit after deduct- ing all charges against the pool — and rate per cent, realized on capital, 181. Im- portation wholly by individuals— tenders to supply coal made individaally also, bat at rates fixed by the directors, 184. Ee-called, 191. W. H. Easton, Coal Dealer, Ottawa - - - 184-191 Cost of coal increased to consumers in Ottawa by the combination, 184, 18^, 188, The combination interfering to stop coal supplies to independent importers, 185, 188, 189. Eesults to witness of combination interference with his business— difi'crenoe between independence and combination prices, 185, 187, 188. Import cost on Ist January, 1888, of soft grate coal and combination selling price in Ottawa, 186. Coal as cheaply imported to Ottawa as to Kingston — difterence against the former in retail prices, 188, 190. Solicited to j oin the Ottawa coal combination to keep up prices, 190. George F. Thompson, Coal Dealer, Ottawa - - 193-303 Affiliated with Ottawa Cartage Co. as a dealer — personal advantages of dealing in an associated form, 192. American coal exporters favor combination on this side, and are in combination amongst themselves, 194. American agents report dealers here who refuse to join in local combination, 196. Profits for the year IS^-^-SS, to witness, of his coal business, 197. Import prices of coal in 1887, at various dates, per long ton — one-eighth of this, gives value of short ton as retailed, 198, 199. Profits of retail, personally, 201. Thomas McConnell, Coal Dealer, Toronto - - - 203-313 Toronto coal exchange manipulating matters against witness on the American side, 202, 206. Forced into the Toronto ooal exchange — the'combination get his supplies stopped and consequent forced surrender of contracts, at heavy loss, 203, 207. Beasons assigned by American coal agents at Buffalo, as to why they stopped his supplies — their agreement to supply, 204. Agreement broken after having been entered upon — a severe loss, 205. The statutory declaration of the local combina- tion objected to — a fine, 206, 207. C ^-operation and mutual action of coal combina- tions upon both sides of the line, 202, 204, 206, 207, ;s09, 210, 211. How witness succeeded in getting contracts outside of the local combination, 207. Details of can- celled contract — cost of importation to fill — price of delivery, per contract — loss to contractor by cancellation, 208. Cost of winter imported coal and retail price in Toronto — shut out of business, 209. Punished for selling coal to a party not in the combination — promoters of the local combination, members of the American com- bination also — something that would bind — profits to coal importers by sale of con- tracts — coal made dearer to consumers by the combination, 211. Combination first confined to anthracite, now extended to include bituminous coals, 212. EVIDENCE. XI I CONTENTS. William Bell, Coal Dealer, Toronto .... 313-31S Coal Association — Executive Committee, number and classes of which composed — what coal importers allow the retail dealers — dealers cannot get coal without bacom- ing members ot the combination — the importers regulate the retail prices, 212. Ad- vantage to retail coal dealers to import — cost of coal at Toronto imported by rail from Baffiilo in August, 1887 — retail price — profit, 213. Personnel of the combinai- tion executive committee — disproves of members having to take obligations under oath, 214, 215. Reasons for organii^ation — how the oath might be got over in cer- tain cases — sole object to keep up prices — combinations acting in concert — to keep up prices the only obligation, 215. List of members of Toronto combination far- nishod to the American coal ageots who will sell only to names on the list — notifica- tion in case of breach — a ring within a ring — retail members dissatisfied with abso- lute rule of the importers^-cut and dried, 216. Several and large increases on im- portation against the retailers in November and December, 1887, and January, 1838 — sweating the small dealers — a $300 surprise, 217. Prices in 1886 and 1887. O. C. Ray, Coal Dealer, Ottawa - - - - - 318-33S Sources of supplies to Ottawa coal importers— Ottawa Coal Cartage Co., 218. Wit- ness demurs to answering certain questions — a present active member and aa original promoter of the organization of the 0. C. Co.— board of direators — essential points the witness cannot recollect, 219, 222, 223. Capital stock of the C. C. Co., how represented — individual shares — how the C. 0. Co.'s business is carried on, 220, 2^3, 221. List of the charter members— none of these previously in coal business — purpose in promoting organization and applying for charter, 221. A reminder to witness, 222. His attention called to certain records— C. C. Company has not inter- fered with other dealers getting supplies — who originated the company's plan of business, 223, 225. Profits of the C. C. Co.— dividends paid to member ot the Co. and others, 225, 226. Witness personally made complaints against length ot time coal remained in cars at Ottawa* — also a member of the coal combination in Toronto, 227- Alexr. R. Hargraft, Coal and Grain Dealer, Cobourq - - 32S-333 No combination in coal in Cobourg — Sources and ports of supply, 228. Prices from mines F. O. B. for long and short tons at different dates for 1887 — Freight and other charges — Maximum cost yarded at Cobourg — Rebate allowed by American dealers to regular customers in Canada— No dictation by American dealers to fix prices at Cobourg— Retail prices in Cobourg and profits, 229-231. Additional rebate by certain coal companies— Terms of credit, 232. Witness a dealer in barley — No combination on this product known to him, 233. George P. Hartt, Coal Dealer, Montrsal . , - - 233-S41. A coal exchange or combination established in Montreal — No connection with the Board of Trade — Object of combination to curb competition and sustain prices— No suggestion or dictation from American side to iorm this combination — Board of management regulate retail prices — A majority of the Board agents for American coal companies, 233. Members of combination not obligated by oath, simply a pro- mise to observe the rules — Punishment provided for by fine — Prices to retail dealers, 4eliv<^red on their premises and prices, delivered from boat, car, or importers' yards — Rebate to importers —Any retail dealer not in the combination discriminated. • Vide evidence of J. B. Batterworlh, p. 252-263. XU EVIDENCE. CONTENTS, against in prices, 234-241. Minimum of profits fixed by the combination— Discount in retail to certain public institutions — Retail prices for citizens and lor tenders £xed by the board — No division or allotment of tenders amongst members — each dealer to get the filling of what tenders he can, within the rules — No commissions on orders, 235, 238, 240. Combination when formed, 236. How a member of the combination outwitted his peers in securinfif a tender, 237. Uniform importation cost tixed in the United States, 236, 238. Expenses of handling coal in Montreal, 240. Minimum average retail profit to be attained, 235, 238, 240. William Bowman, Qoal Dealer, London .... 41-319 Goal Dealers Association formed in London— Origin of the combination compulsory by American dealers invited to come over — Object, to limit competition and sustain prices, 241. Cost of coal on board cars at Suspension Bridge — freight — cost of handling — and retail prices during ISSt-^S at London, in various months, 242-244. All violation ot local combination rules reported to the local exchange at Buffalo, for action — Tenders how managed by the combination at London, 245. Prices at which Government tenders were taken, 248. Discrimination in prices charged to private citizens for coal, as compared with iho price charged on Government tenders, 24*7. Interest charged on accounts of retail purchasers— coal coneumption of Lon- don, 248, J. G. Butterworth, Goal Dealer, Ottawa .... 349-354 Ottawa Coal Cartage Co. — Charter members not the promoters in organizing the Co. — the promoters now the company holding the charter — Witness demurs to answer and committee directs him to answer — why the names of the promoters did not appear in the charter — who furnished the money and how transferred, 249. Present stockholders and personal amounts — Import and retail prices of coal for 1887-88 in Ottawa, 250. Interfering with importation of dealers not in the combi- sation — who wrote to United States coal agencies — reminded of obligations of oath, 262, 253. Dtialers, not members, associated with the C. 0. Co. — storage, 254. J- C. Brown, Coal Dealer, Ottawa 354-363 As a dealer associated with the Ottawa C. C. Co., 254. Cause of his affiliation of bus- iness With the Co., 255-259. Cost of coal importation in 1887 — Eetail prices in Ottawa — Not aware of the nature ot the operations of the C. C. Co., until after asso- ciated with it, 256, 257. Terms of association with the company— dissatisfied with the C. C. Co.'s, methods— share of profits, 258-260. The company, alias the Directors, fixed prices at which tenders should be supplied and allotted the supplying of them by distribution, 259. What would be a fair profit per ton to the retailer, 262. Percy R. Todd, General Freight and Passkngkr Agent, C. A. R. Ottawa - - - - - - , 363-371 First coal carried by the C. A. R. — Connections of this railway — the railway ignored by Ottawa coal dealers, 263. Deoision to bring a new importer of coal to Ottawa and the C. A. E. to stand by him — the Ottawa C. C. Co. seeks an interview — Ar- rangements by the railway with the Rathbun Co. to bring in coal, 264. Cost of car- riage of coal to Ottawa, 265, 268. Negotiations with the Utioa and Black River and other American railways— Manager's belief that the Ottawa 0. C. Co. interfered to EVIDENCE. XIU CONTENTS. frustrate these negotiations— coal consumption of Ottawa — import of coal over the C. A. E. commenced, 266,267. An important point established— coal import to Ottawa, percentage of by rail and water respectively — misrepresentation of coal combination to purchasers in matter of rail and water borne coal —water carriage more favorable to coal than rail carriage — comparison of distances carried, 268, 269; Freight charges agreed upon between the Pennsylvania CJoal Co., and the C. A. R, The railway sharing in loss with independent coal importers — decided to continue such assistance, 270 . Michael Dwan, Coal Dealer, Toronto - - - 303-304 How long in coal business — personal rating in the Commercial Agency, 302. What he bought and retailed his coal at last year — business transacted under association rules — compelled to withdraw an advertisement under the rules, 3u3. Fire-wood partially regulated, 304. Wilmot D. Matthews, Grain Dealer, Toronto - . - 304-314 President of the Toronto Board of Trade— Control of the Board's Council over the sections comprising the Board — constitution and rules of the coal section, 304, 307. Oath administered by the coal section to members and employees not approved of or known to the Council— Special rules of coal eection not submitted for approval — The constitution and rules of the coal section submitted to and approved by the Board (Exhibit 33, p. 564) and those under which the coal branch worked (Exhibit 34, p. 610), not the eame— points of difference, 305, 308. The " Special Kules " the important feature of the coal section's regulations — Oath demanded of employees, retrospective and prospective — The special rules ultra vires — extracts from minutes of meetings of the coal section in re affidavit— transactions not officially known to the Board, 306, 307, SOS. Action upon the special rules by the coal branch a viola- tion of the rules of the Board — How the Board might deal with violations, c07. The Board's first knowledge of the extraordinary powers being exercised by the coal branch, 308. GKAIN— Standards of how fixed, 308. Canadian barley, special proper- ties of for malting purposes— no combination in the bailey trade — competing points in the purchase of, 309. Maltsters' and Brewers' Association in the XJ. S. — How charge made in the malt duties in the U.S. affected the malting industry in Canada, . 310. Ctrtain peerless qualities of Ontario barley, 312. Prices regulated solely by supply and demand — estimates of the Bureau of Industry not reliable — points of sales for Ont. barley in the U. S., 313. American farmers opposed to removing the duty from Canadian barley— Sections of Ont. which produce the best barley, 314. {r^i^i, ,; George Taylor, M. P„ Grain Merchant, Gananoqub - • 314-318 . Annual quantity of Canadian barley handled by witness — no ccmbication in the barley trade in Canada— Ont. Bureau of Statistics, 314. Combination amongst the maltsters and brewers of the U.S., 316, 318. By whom standard of grades are fixed-- Dealers in Canada pay equal prices to farmers, as the U. S. dealers pay the'r farmers— Canadian barley, relation of prices to duties on the U. S. side, 315, 317. Territorial lines for barley production as mapped out by U.S. dealers — bright barley a necessity to maltsters and brewers — importance of color in grading— grade dater mined by color and weight combined, 316 . Importance of cleaning barley thoroughly and a mistake on this point — Canadian barley in competition with western product at Oewego — malting business in Canada, 317. Canadian barley a necessity to U. S. maltsters and brewers — substitutes for barley — experience in reports of barley to Eng- land, 318. XIV EVIDENCE. CONTENTS. Patrick Kelly, Blyth, Ont. ..... 318-319 CombinatioQ io ogg trade— object of to depress prices against farmers — how the combination manages to keep down local prices in Canada, and why, 318, 319. R. C. Carter, Forwarding Manager, &c., Kingston - - - 319-333 An attempt to bring coal into Ottawa over the 0. A. R. — recital of negotiations with the Ottawa Coal Cartage Co. — an arrangement and prices delivered for at different dates, 319. Obstacles placed in the way — unfair and ungenerous treatment — coal dearer in Ottawa than in anyof the surrounding towns — large margins of profit, 321. Charles Stark, Manufacturer op Watch Cases, Toronto - - 333-333 A Combination designated — his trade supplies shut off through interference of the combination — violation of contract by the Elgin National Watch Co., 323, His orders refused because not a member of the Jobbers' Combination in Canada, 325, 329. His factory in Toronto for manufacture of watch cases, extent of — forced into starting watch case factory by the combination — an attempt to crush out his factory by re- fusing to sell him watch movements without cases — an injunction obtained, 32b', 330, The watch combination object to publishing catalogue of prices — the combination in Canada and the U.S. one — rules by which the Watch Jobbers' Combination are bound, 328. Jobbers' and retailers distinguished — Swiss and English watches, 330. Combi- nations in Canada and the U. S. — cartridges, 331. Jolin H, Jones, Jeweller, Montreal ... - 333-340 A Watch Jobbers' Association formed in C.inada, 332. Constitution and by-laws of the association, 333. That watch cases and movements must be sold in equal num- bers, an American demand — about imitation watch movements — the customs a check, 335. Profits, 325. The Canadian Watch Jobbers' Association in unison with that on the U. S. side 337. Increased sales of American Watches in Canada, 33 B. Canadian Association would have complained had Stark's orders been filled, MO. Matthew C. Ellis, Jeweller, Toronto, .... 340-344 Watch Jobbers' Combination when formed, 340. Relations of wholesale to retail — various matters in regard to trade in American Watches, 341. Manufacture of watch cases in ToU-onto, 341. Bylaws, their provisions for fine and expulsion, 343. The Canadian and American combination in affiliation, 344. John Sedgworth, Toronto, ..... 344-34S Presenis a statement in behalf of the Elgin Watch Co., 344. John Connor, Rope Manufacturer, St. John, N.B. - - 345-393-357 Combination amongst certain manufacturers of cordage and binder twine. The cost of fibre raised by an American Syndicate which purchased the entire production of fibre, 340. Surplus of cordage factories over requirements in the United States — competition— effect in rise in raw material, 346. Effect of syndicate monopoly upon EVIDENCE. XV CONTENTS. prices of binder twine in Canada, 347. Combination arrangements for division of production — snrplas capabilities of binder twine factories in Canada — how it would have resulted to the industry in Canada had there been no protective duly upon twine — American farmers paying a higher price for binder twine than the Canadian farmers, 348. Combination at one time amongst Canadian manufacturers of self- binders to monopolize the entire sale of binder twine — ^jobbers and retailers of twine ijow left free to sell as they please, 349. Lath ties : — Prices of— Canadian made ties •worth more per pound than the American make, 350. The twine combination tem- porarily dissolved — effects, profits, standard of quality raised, &c., 351. Production and cordage factories in Canada, 352. Mr. Connors recalled— explanation of objects and management of the combination, 357. H. A. Massey, President, M^ssey Manupactuing Co., Toronto • 353-357 Manufacture of binder twine — prices — material, &c., 353. Agricultural Implements : — No combination in manufacture of — home sales and export prices — Customs rebate on material entering into machines, 356. Thomas Workman, Hardware Merchant, Ottawa - - 358-36S Barbed Wire : — Manufactories of in Canada — combination to sustain prices — condi- tions of agreement required of retailers — prices, discounts and profits, 358. The various kinds of barbed wire in use — prices, terms of sale and manufacture of, 359. Stoves: — Combination to sustain prices amongst leading manufacturers, 36U. Prices uniform to the retailer — retailer free to make his own price, 361. Tar Paper: — Combination in manufacture of — prices, 361. Joseph R. Esmiond, Hardware Merchant, Ottawa - - 3«2-365 Stoves: — List of manufacturers in combination — all kinds of stoves included — prices raised and quality improved — some manufacturers not in the combination, 362. Changes and improvements in stoves rapidly succeeding each other — reason for increase of prices in late years — Canadian high grade stoves compare favorably with same class of American stove — American stove cheaper, 363. Combination makers* prices not higher than those of outside makers, in comparison of fine finish — dealers left free to sell as they please, no rules imposed on them, 364. F. T. Graves, Hardware Merchant, Ottawa ... 365-360 Stoves : — Proof of combination amongst stove manufacturers — a continuous tendency of prices upwards, 365. Large pecentage in rises of combination prices at several dates — combiners' assigned excuees lor raising prices contradicted-^ combination prices assists manufacturers not within it, to obtain higher prices, 366. Difference in cost of stoves regulated by finish, not by quality — frequent changes of styles pro- ductive of extravagant prices — a big jnmp in prices — weight, duration and cost of material of a base burner, 367. Barbed TFire : —Trouble over patents — Canadian manufacturers control their home markets now, 368. Ccrdifl^e.* — Supposed combina- tion — a big jamp in prices of — imported twine inferior, 368. Pressed Tin : — Combi- nation causes tremendous jump in price — Canadian headquarters of the tin combina- tion, 369. Copper : — Combination followed by enormous rise in price, 369. XVI EVIDBNCB. CONTENTS. H. R. Ives, Manufacturer, Montreal .... 370-375 Stoves: — A manufacturer of — invited to become a member of the stove combination — declined but believes the combination helps him to obtain better prices — prices fixed by an adjuster, 370. A combination of two, 271. Barbed Wire: — Witness, president and manager of the Canada Barbed Wire Co. — Canadian companies manu- facturing under royalty to patentees in the United States, 371. Products of factories in Canada — prices at which sold— drop in prices of late years, 372. Combination agreement, between manufacturers and retailers — nopenalty for violation, 374. Prices of barbed wire in the United States, 375. David Robert Ross, Miller, Embro, Ont. - - - 373 390 Secretary to Oatmeal Millers' Association — primary object of, to realize profits by increase of prices, 375, 378. Constitution, rules and by-laws (exhibit 38A) 610. Num- ber of oatmeal mills in Ontario — capacity of production — oatmeal consumption of the Dominion — duty on imported oatmeal in Canada — do do in the United States — British market for Canadian meal — price of British meal in Toronto, 376. Ordinary meal and rolled meal, weight and prices per barrel — British and Canadian oats — export of meal from Canada to Britain, 377. When oatmeal combination organized- number of meetings — number of advances made in prices — results of combination aatislactory to millers — number of mills in the combination— other mills follow combination prices, 378, 3S0. Production by allotment — excess or deficit of production to allotment, now managed — number of mills short and number in excess — origin of the financial arrangement of the combination, 379. Mills paid by arrangement to produce no meal — how they are paid — total paid them — minimum and maximum sums per annum— number of this class, 380,390. The United States markets and freights^-oats chaper in Chicago than in Toronto, 382. Manitoba oats and freight rates — value of the refuse from producing a barrel of meal, 383, 385. Ontario supplies meal to the Maritime Provinces — refuse pays expenses of milling — refuse material rising in value, oat hulls, and new use for them by city feedmen, 385. Various matters of interest in practical milling, 386-390. Henry Hatton, Bookkeeper, Hamilton - -' - - 391 Secretary to the Canadian Iron Founders Association — the combination confines to stores — number of foundries in the association — Nova Scotia and New Brunswick foundries not included, 391. Witness produces constitution, by-laws and bond of agreement of the association, 69^. Also minutes and terms of agreement, 703. W. J. Copp, Iron Founder, Hamilton ... - 303-307 Manufacturer of stoves and agricultural implements — no combination to regulate prices of implements— combination confined to stoves — prices of stoves on what basis ^ed — prices by whom regulated— number of stove foundries not in the combination, 392, 3^5. Prices uniform for similar class of goods — violations of rules punished by ■fine— prices and competition — how long this association has existed, 393. Monthly declaration by members — profits in bygone years, greater than now — stoves of high grade finish cheaper in Canada than in the United Slates, percentage loss — medium olass stoves the same price, 394. Bough, light class of stoves cheaper in the United States than in Canada — no discrimination against purchaser, 395. No dictation to the retailer about his prices of sale — cause of last advance in prices — wages of foundry hands per day — patents regulated by the association, 396. Sufficient outside com- petition to keep prices moderate, 397. EVIDENCE. XVll CONTENTS. A. W. Morris, Cordage Manupacturbb, Montreal - - 397-40S Binder twine combination, duration of, 397. Prices of binder twine and terms of sale in 1S86 and '87— Canadian prices lower tban American— sisal and hemp, rela- tive qualities of — Textile strain, twine made to bear, 398. Object and working arrange- ments of the twroe combination — Quantity sold by witness — Final dissolution of the combination, 399. Probable drop in price of binder twine — Drop in price of fibre — Source of hemp supply — The American combination on fibre, 400. Propping up small factories — Dissolution of manufacturers' combination followed by lower prices of twine to purchasers— Employment of factory hands and wages, 401. Orders booking for coming season conditional — The combination pool ; how made up — Quantity of twine sold by Canadian factories, 402. A draw on the pool — Principle of pools, 403. Sam\iel Rogers, Undertaker, Ottawa .... 403-40S Coflins and caskets : — A meiiber of the Undertakers' Association, 403. Provincial extent of the combination — The manufacturers of coffins and caskets included, and sell only to members of tho combination — When organized — Membership — Constitu- tion (Exhibit 47, p. 705) adopted — Local associations and powers of, 404, 405, Tariff of charges — Coffin linings and trimmings supplied to members of the combina- tion only, 405. Stringency ol the combination on the sale of coffin fittings to iioiv- members— Trimming stock a special line of business confined to the manufacturers— An extreme difficulty to parties entering upon Undertaker's business — An admission — Absolute power of the combination over the public, 406. Obligations between the coffin and casket manufacturers and the undertakers, mutually binding — Ghastly power of the Uniertakers over their debtors; a threat to exercise it — First cost and retail prices of coffins and caskets — Profits and discounts, 407| 408. A. E. Boulton, Painter, Bolton Tillage, Ont. ... 409-4.13 Formerly an undertaker in conjunction with his father — Expectation to succeed to his father's business frustrated — Eefused his father's hearse for ready cash — Forced out of business by the combination — Ingratitude, 409. Details of further efforts to get into the business defeated — Names of parties who refused to sell him stock, 410, 412. Case of a manufacturing firm punished for selling goods to two undertakers, not members of the combination, 411. Coffins, cost of— Ketail prices — Profits and cash discounts, 413. Robert Moffat, Undertaker, Toronto - - - - 413-420 Experience in undertaker's business — Applications to be received into the Under- takers' Association refused on the grounds that this would be diminishing the bueinees of those already in, 413. Applicant ample capital for carrying on the business — Extortionate charges for stock — Imposition upon mourners under pre- t nee of disinfecting — Members of the combination bound under oath — Severe fines foi selling any stock to one not a member of the combination — Importation of coffins Bid stock, 414. Shut out of business — Absolute irresponsible control of the combina- tion — American made caskets, 415. A distinction between buying out and inherit- ing — Toronto Board of Trade blamed — Membership in Ontario — Membership in Toronto^Examples of extortionate prices, 416. Gross frauds by the combination in caskets and coffins — Tyranny of the combination in an absolute prohibition on all coffin atd burial stock, 417. Oaths, fines and penalties, 418. List of coffin manufac- turers in the combination — Hearse builders refuse to enter — Expenses of a plain funeral, 419. XVUl EVIDENCE. CONTENTS. D. C. Macdonald, Manager London Mutual Fire Insurance Company, London, Ont. ..... 431-488 Time in the London Mntaal — Fire TJoder writers' Association— Circular issued by the Association to agents for companies in the combination — Ostracising tbe London Mutual and other companies, 421. Inducements offered the London Mutual to join the Association declined — Eeasons for declining, 422. The Association cutting rates on the mutual companies, 423, 424. Circular of November, 1885, aimed at mutual companies not in the combination — An association of mutual companies which does not touch rates, 424. Agents of the London Mutual placed in dilemma by the November circular, and the company forced into a new classof business— Companies in the Association refusing to accept risks from, or place risks with, companies not in the combination — Course of the Association driving insurance over to United States companies, i.e., producing "underground insurance," 425. Comparison of rates of insurance now with 8 years ago — Increase of Insurance loss by use of steam threshers — Combination in insurance an injury to legitimate business — cast iron tariff deprives agents of exercise of judgment by removing allowance for moral hazard, 426. About agents — The London Mutual a prosperous company — Amount of outsianding policies — Surplus accumulated — Premium note policies, 427. Assess- ment on premium notes — Collection on premium notes, 428. Hcbert McLean, Secretary Canadian Fire Underwriters' Assoc ca- tion --...... 438-447 Inception of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association, 428, Companies in the Association, 428, 430, 431, 441. List of companies, 63!. Complaints, 4-8, 442. Rates of insurance fixed by the Association — One association, two branches — tariff when arranged — Proscribing agents from acting with non-tariff companies, i. e,, companies not in the combination — this rule subsequently repealed, 429. Companies not in the combination, 430, 442. Companies which resolution (of 15th October, 1885, p. 549) aimed at— squeezing agents into abandoning former employers — non- hazardous risks, farm property, «&c., brought under a fixed tariff, the rule subsequent- ly repealed in Ontario, but remained in force in Quebec, 431. Why a fixed tariff could not be applied to dwellings — combination rates compromised in Hamilton and why, 432, 43r). Competition from mutual companies in cities, 435, 443. Object in forming the association, to increase rates and render insurance more profitable, 435. Tariff' under fixed rates higher than under the competition system — Cost of main- taining insurance associations — contributions from various companies, 436, 439. Appointment and cost of association inspectors — other items of cost — out of whom these increased costs are made — expenses increasing, 437. Moral risk — Cutting tariff, how dealt with, 440. Why the Queen City Company withdrew from the com- bination — System of Provincial tax on insurance companies different in Ontario and Quebec, 442. Comparative tariffs before and after combination, 443. The tendency of paying agents commission on premiums — Percentage of losses paid to total of premiums received— -Percentage of expenses upon premiums, 444. Williain Hugh Lowrie, Insurance Agent, Eussbll ^ - 445-447 Decline in better class of risks offering and a raising of rates, in consequence of combination of companies — Allowance for moral hazai*d taken away and responsi- bility of agents removed, by the system of fixed rates— Abolition of fixed rates would be to advantage of both insurers and insured — farm risks not affected, 445. looreaso of insurance rates anJer combination, 416. EVIDHNCB. XIX CONTENTS. James Boomer, Secbbtary Western Assurance Company, Toronto, 447-45S Efcbolution adopted by the Insurance Association against non-tariff companies re- scinded, 447. Chief objects in forming the association, 448. Eates of insurance raised — Company's expenses in connection with the association — amount contributed last year, 449. Duties of association inspectors, 450. Classification and rates, 451i About losses — City and country insurance — The company's business m Montreal and Toronto, 452. The company's comparative percentage of loss to amount of pre- miums received in Canada and United States respectively, 453. Dividends paid on company's par value of stock before and since the combination- An argument spoiled, 454. Comparative net results of the company's basi' ess in Canada and XJnited States, 455. Comparative rates and risks in Canada and United States — Underground insurance carrying off much of the larger ripks, 4o6 Companies had DO scale of tariffs for guidance of agents, before the Association establisbed uniform rates,* 456. Salaries of the compauy's executive officers — Company's comparative *Vtde evidence of Hugh Scott, p. 472, also, instractions and scale of rates issued in 1873, by the **Hand in Hand " Insurance Company for guidance of its agents, p. 690-698. expenses in Canada and United States, 45^. William Tatley, Mqr. Royal Insurance Co., Montreal - - 458-463 Fire Underwriters' Association of Canada, when established — Makes insurance rates uniform — A similar association in England — Resolution of the Can. Ass. ;(15th Oct., '85, p. 649), precluding agents from doing business with companies not in the com- bination, repealed — The association voluntary, 459. The combination a benefit to insurance Cos. and the public — " Moral hazard." definitions of it, 461. Basis of uniform tariff — Agents as under the old tariff — Queen City, stock Co., not in the con>bination — Stock Cos, and mutuals in competition, 46*4. Steadying insurance rates, 463, 464. Consequences of Foreign competition — Canadian insnranoe stock companies disappearing and their places refilled by Foreign Cos. — Present number of Canadian and Foreign insurance Cos. operating in Canada, 463. Benefits of uniform rates, 464. Agents and Inspectors, 465. Alfred W. Hadrill, Seoy. Can. Fire Underwriters' Assn., Montreal ...... 465-468 The practice of the Quebec branch of the C. F. U. A., on resolution of 14 Oct., '86, p. 694, in the matter of agents of tariff Cos. during businetis with non tariff Cos. and Mutuals — Association expenses upon Cos , 466. The Citizen's insurance Co's com- plaint on cutting rates within the assn., 467. HTlgh Scott, Manager and Director of the Millers and Manufacturers, and THE Queen City Insurance Cos. ; Secy. Hand in Hand Fire Insurance Exchange ----:- 468-491 Thirty years' experience — ^What constitutes " moral hazard " in insurance, defined, 468. Fire Underwriters Association expel the Queen City Co., 46ii, 4S3. Exces- sive increase of insurance rates in one year by the combination, 470, 484. Total disregard to moral hazard — Exodus of much of the best insurance business from Canada, 470. Underground insurance defined, 471. Why the Queen City Co. broke from the combination, 472, 475. Exodus of business and outcome of arbitrary ratings —Existence of local Insurance Boards, previous to the Fire Underwriters' Ap«=oci- ation — An exorbitant jump in rates and a result of it, 472. Role passed by the F.U. 3-6 XX EVIDENCB. CONTENTS. Association, 15 Oct., 1885 (Exhibit 45 B, sec. 41, p. 649) forbidding representatives of fixed tariff offices to represent non fixed tariff offices — Explanations of, 474. All 1nsuranc3, virtually mataal in character, whatever name it may be called by — Capital not a factor in insurance — Eesolution of, 15 Oct., '85, repealed, 475. Toronto Board of Fire Underwriters identical in membership with the association — Eesolution repealed by the association, re agents of non-fixed tariff Cos., re-enacted by the Toronto Board (Exhibit 45 F, agenda sec. 10, p. 673, and minutes, sec. 33, p. 680) — Composition of the Fire Underwriters' Association explained, 477. Discrimination of combination rates against the City of Toronto, examples of it, 478, 4^0, 487. Discrimination by the Board inconsistent with the rules and classification of the asbociation, 479. A special creation for Toronto, 480. A deposit guarantee and its rise — executive officers of the Toronto Board — The Board's treatment of Toronto hospital trustees, 4S1, 487. Fines imposed by the Board, 481. Queen City Co.'s and E. Similar meetings and circulars in relation to coal trade, 549-555. No. 26i — Letter from Mr. J. N.Blake, Toronto, asking the Committee to inquire into an alleged combination in the Banking business, 555. No. 27. — Letter from Mr. George A. Drummond, President of the Canada Sugar Eifining Co. (Limited), as a supplement to his evidence before the Committee, affirming it to be the strict practice of his refinery not to as© Glucose to the smallest extent, for purposes of adulteration, 656. No. 28. — Letter from Mr. S. S. Malcolmson asking the Committee to enquire into an alleged combination for depressing wages, by "The Owners' Marine . Association," and enclosiog (B) copy of the " Constitution of the Cana- dian Marine Engineers' Association," 556-561. No. 29. — Remonstrance addressed to the Committee, from the Manufacturers o* Ginger Ale, Montreal, against the comnbination between the Wholesale Grocers Guild and the sugar refiners, 56 1 . No. 30. — Letter from Mr. M. Teefy, Richmond Hill, asking the Committee to investigate into thecombinatioQ between the Manufacturers of Coffins and the Undertakers, known as the "Undertakers Association," 562. No. 31.— Letter from Mr. J. A. Mathewson, Grocer, Moutreal, to the Committee on the practical working of the Sugar Combination and his experience in importation ot sugar, 562. No. 32* A.— Letter from S. Cuoard & Co., Halifax, Agents for the Halifa'? Sugar Refinery, to J. A. Mathewson & Co., Montreal, declining to sell sugar except in abeyance to the Grocers' Guild. B. — Andrews, Bell & Co., Liver- pool, to J. A. Mathewson & Co., Montreal, 2nd February, 1888, in the matter of prices and terms of sale of sugars in Liverpool, at date, 563. C. — Telegrams re Sugar, between the above parties, 564. No. 33.— Copy of Constitution and By-Laws of the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade, submitted to the Committee by Mr. W. D. Mathews, President of said rfoard, being the Constitution and By-Laws deposited with the Council of the Board, and purporting to be those by which the Coal Trade Branch is governed, 564-566. No. 34. A.— Minutes of meetings of the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade from 14th June, 18S6, to 1st March, 188S, inclusive, 566-6 10. B.— Constitution, By-Laws and Special Rules of the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board' of Trade, copy submitted by Mr. G. W. Wood, Secretary, in his evidence before the Committee, 23rd March, 1388,a3 the regulations by which the said Coal Trade Branch was governed troni its organizer- tion as such Branch, to date (compare with^exhibit 33) 610-613. C— Letter from G. W. Wood in the matter of premiums upon coal contracts, as supplementary to his oral evidence before the Committee, 613. No. 35. A, B. — Articles of agreement upon prices and conditions of coal sales » between Chisholm Parrish, Buffalo, N. Y,, of the one part, and T. McDonnell & Co., Toronto, of the other part, 614. CXIV EXHIBITS. CONTENTS. Uo. 36. A to I. — Circulars from anthracite coal agents at Oswego and at Eochester, N. Y., to Alexr. Hargraft, Cobourg, Ont., giving prices of coal F. O. B., for several months of ISSb'-ST at these ports. Also total cost of final delivery at Oobcurg, in April, '-7 and Oct., '86, 615-617. Ifo. 37. A. — By-laws and Eules governing the London, Ont., Coal Exchange, 617- 619 . A, B, C, D — Statements by Hunt Bros., Coal and Commission Agents, per W. Bowman, of cost of coal at London, Ont., for four months of 1887 and two months of '88, 619. Ho. 38. A. — Constitution, Eules and By-la wb of the Oatmeal Millers' Association of Canada, 620 624. B. — Form of monthly return of mill production and statutory declaration thereto, required of each member of the oatmeal combiuation, 624. C. — Minutes of meetings of the association from 4 November, 1887, to 16 March, '88, inclusive, 625-629. DSTo. 39. — A. W. Morris & Bro., Manufacturers, Montreal, to A. Workman & Co., Ottawa; giving notice that they (Morris & Bro.) have withdrawn from the Cordage and Binder Twine Combination, 629. IS'o. 40. — Articles of agreement between John Charles Brown, coal dealer and Coal Cartage Co. of Ottawa, 630. No. 41. — Constitution and by-laws, &c., of the Undertakers Association of Ontario, 630. No. 42. — Copy of circular from the Fire Underwriters Association to agents for- bidding them to represent or act for uny fire insurance Co. not in the com- bination, i. e. those designated as ** non-tariff companies," 630. No. 43. — Constitution and Bj-laws of the Canadian Fire Underwriters Association, 631-637. No. 44. A, B and C. — Expenses of the Montreal Branch of the Canadian Fire Under- writers' AsBociation from 1884-87, inclusive, each year, 637. No. 45. AJ. — Origin of the Millers and Manufacturers' Insurance Co., 639. A. — Prospectus of, 041. B. — Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association, special meeting at Ottawa, 642-658. C— Meeting 1st December, 1885, of the Toronto Branch of the Canadian Fire Underwriters Association, 658-663. D.— Canadian Fire Underwriters ABsociation, annual meeting of, 30th March, 1886, at Toronto, 663-672. E.— Meeting, 14th April, 1886, of the Miilern' and Manufacturers Inturance Co., 672. F. — Annual meetings, 19th Jan. and 3rd Feb., 1887, of the Toronto Board of Fire Urderwriters, 672-681. G.— do 23rd July, 1885, do do 682-685. H —do 36lh Oct , 1884 do do 685 1.— The Secy. Toronto Board of Fire Undo writers to Scott & Walmsley and W. H. Howland, returning Depo- sit Guarantee, 687. K. — Circular to Insurance Cos., enquiring into their business connections, if any, with the insurance firm of Scott & Walmsley, 688. L. — Extract from Statutory conditions of insurance by the Queen City Fire Ins. Co., 688 M. — Statistics of losses by fire in the U. S. and Can. for ten years, 1875-84, inclusice, 6b9 690. N. — Precautionary measures against fire, (J90. O. — Eules and rates of the Hand in Hand Fire Ins. Co., 690-61(8. P.— Meeting, 17th Feb., 1887, of the Toronto B( ard of Fire Underwriters, resolution adopted (See. 68) in the matter of " Deposit Guarantee," 699. No. 46. A.— Corstitution (adopted 13th Nov., 1865, revised'17th May, 1872, and 28th April, 1880) of the Canadian Iron Founders' Association, 699-703. B. — Terms of agreement (formulated in 1875 and revised in 1877) of the Can.. Iron Founders' Association, 703. XZmBITS. xxv OONTBNTS. lHo, 47. A. — Constitution, By-Laws and Regulations of the Undertakers' Association and the official report of their second annual meeting, 16th Sept., 1885, at Toronto, 705-733. B. — Manufacturer's price list of coffins, &o., to men^ bers of the combination, 734. C. — Contained in 47A. No. 48. — Statement inbehalfof theCoal Trade Branch of the Toronto Bjard ofTrala with Statutory declarations thereto made by Messrs. Samuel Crane, Halph B. Gibson, John Keith, John R. Bailey, Jamos Cowan, F. H. Thompsoo, Thomas Coulter and Bliaa Rogers, all of the city of Toronto, 737-743. REPORT OF THB SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, OGNSISTINQ OF Mr. Wallace, Chairman, " Bain (^Soulanges), " Bain IWentioorth), " B:fiCHABD, " Boyle, " Casgrain, « Daly, " FiSHEH, Mr. Flynn, " Gillmob, " GmLLET, " Grandbois, " Landry, " McDouGALD (Pictou), " McKay, " Wood (Westmoreland), Appointed to examine into and report upon the nature, extent and effect of certain combinations said to exist with reference to thepnrchaee and sale or manufacture and sale in Canada of any Foreign or Canadian products, with power to send for persons, papers and records; and further, with power to examine persons, called before tho Committee, on oath; and by Order of the 8th March, the powers of the said Com- mittee extended so as to include the alleged combination of Fire Insurance Com- panies doing business in Canada. REPORT. House of Commons of Canada, Ottawa, 16th May, 1888. The Select Committee appointed by the Hoase of Commons on the 29th Feb- ruary, 1888, " To examine into and report upon the nature, extent and effect of cer- tain combinatioDH said to exist with reference to the purchase and sale, or manufac- ture and sale, in Canada, of any foreign or Canadian products," and still further ex- tended by Eesolution of the Hoase of Commons on the 8th MLarch, 1833, " To inclada the alleged Combinations of Fire Insurance Companies doing business in Canada," beg to submit its Report : — The Committee entered upon the discharge of the duties imposed upon it on the sixth day of March, 1888, and held 26 meetings, having continued the investigation till the 8th day of May, instant. The time at the disposal of the Committee was not sufficient to examine into the nature and extent of other alleged combinations other than those hereinafter specified. Sixty-three witnesses were examined, and a full investigation made in the fol- lowing subjects. The subjects examined were : — Sugar and GaocBRiKs ; Coal ; Biscuits and Oonfkctionbbt ; Combination Against Canadian Watch Cask Manufactureels - Babbbd Wirb ; Binder Twine ; Ag- ricultural Implements ; Stoves ; Coffin Makers and Undertakers ; Oat- meal Millers ; Combinations of £gg Dbalxrs ; BaeuiEt : and Canadian Firs Underwriters' Association. The manufacture of watch-cases in Canada has grown in a few years into large proportions, and it is claimed by two manufacturers that they have sufficient capacity to sapply the Canadian market. One of these firms was compelled to join the American association or they *' would be frozen out." There is a Canadian association of jobbers in American watcees, in affiliation with, and under the control of this American association. By their constitution any member violating the rules shall forfeit $5U0, and be expelled from the association. If the American association are suoceesfal in their present efforts, a flourishing -Canadian industry will be destroyed. sugar and groceries. The combination between the sugar refiners and the Dominion Grrocers' Guild ■entered into on the 20th April, 1887, was originated by the Guild. This Guild was formed in Montreal, on the 7th June, 1884, and claimed to re- present, at the time the sugar agreement was adopted, over 95 per cent, of the wholesale dealers in groceries, including manufacturers of confectioneries and biscuits, in the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec, beyond which the membership and control of the Guild did not extend. After several ineffectual attempts made by the Guild during the previous year, the Refiners of the Dominion consented to an ■arrangement by which sales of their products should be made on more favourable terms to members of the Guild than to non-members. The first agreement was that the dealers who refused to be bound under it should be charged a ^ of a cent per pound more than to signers of the agreement on all grades of white sugar. This was increased by subsequent negotiation to ^ cent per pound advance on same grades. This arrangement was cancelled, and the following made : that is to say, ^ of a cent per pound advance on all aradeSf of both yellow and 3-li REPORT. white sngars, without the discount allowed to parties to the agreement, which was 2^ per cent. This was shown to be equivalent to an advance of about 30 cents per 100 pounds on all grades. It was also agreed that non -signers were to be compelled to buy two barrels of yellow sugar to one of white, but this condition was not long in existence. There was no evidence of any combination amongst the several Eefiners or any of them to fix uniform prices at which they should sell, the several agreements be- tween them and the Guild were confined to the imposition of diflferential prices and terms against outsiders. These agreements were made by the Eefiners on the con- dition that not more than J cent per pound advance should be charged on granulated by the wholesale, to the retail dealer, on lots of 15 barrels or over, and f cent ad- vance on smaller lots. This they stipulated with the Guild should be the maximum profit. The advance proposed and contended for by the Guild was higher, viz., under 15 barrels J cent per pound advance, and for larger quantities f cent advance. The Guild made strenuous efforts to induce the refiners to refuse to sell their products to non-signers, failing in this they endeavoured to obtain a disorimination of one cent per pound against them. They urged, next, that non-signers should be compelled to buy two barrels of yellow sugar with every one of granulated, and they succeeded temporarily. Thia was a condition superadded to the ^ cent per pound increase of price, and also the loss of the usual discount which was 2^ per cent. A list of names of firms in the agreement was furnished to all the Refiners. The original signers numbered 98, which included 14 firms who were both wholesale and retail dealers. At a meeting of the Guild on the 16th November, 1887, these 14 firms were summarily, and without notice of such intention, struck off the list, and thus deprived of the right to purchase except on non-signers' terms. The Executive Committee of the Guild met weekly to fix prices at which all grades of white sugar should be sold to the retailers, subject to the arrangement with the Refiners as before mentioned. The penalty for non- compliance was the removal of the name of the delinquent firm from the list supplied to the Refiners. Members of the Guild were solemnly pledged to maintain these prices as well as other regulations of the Guild, under pain of expulsion* They were also " held bound in honour to keep strictly confidential all discussions and transactions of the SBSociation when in executive session." The subscribers to the sugar and other agreements were required to " covenant and agree to faithfully and honourably per- form and carry out the terms and conditions set f jrth." The Guild also entered into agreements with manufacturers of Tobacco, Starch and Cook's Friend Baking Powder, under which prices for these goods to the retailer were fixed by the Guild, and enforced under penalty of being deprived of right to purchase except at higher prices. These agreements were found to be made with individual manufacturers only, and that no combination existed among manufacturers of similar goods. . Terms were also agreed upon with the agents of Morton's and Cross and Blackwell's Pickles^ James' Dome Lead, Laundry Blue, etc., and Nestle's Food, under which wholesalers wore required by the English manufacturers to maintain the prices fixed by them for sales to retailers. The minutes of the meetings of the Guild show that an effort was made to control the product of the Mount Royal Mills, This resolution reads as follows : — "That inasmuch as rice, the products of Mount Royal Mills, has been and is being sold at unremunerative })riceB, this meeting recommends that the question of fixing a minimum advance on that article of f cent per pound on mill prices when sold in quantities of 25 bags and under be considered by the respective Guilds at an early date, and their views submitted through their delegates at the next meeting of the Dominion Guild." The minutes of the last meeting of the Guild show that an effort was being made to effect a combination of two of the Starch manufacturers of the Dominion. The resolution is as follows :— > REPORT. 5 " Provided the Edwardsburg and British Americaa Starch Companies sell to the wholesale trade only and make uniform prices and support the wholesale trade in a minimum advance to the retail trade of one half cent per pound on common laundry, three quarters of a cent on all others except rice starch, on which the ad- vance shall be one cent, they agree not to sell the manufacturers of any other starch company who, on being asked to join, refuse to do so upoa the same terms." Thus facts prove this Grocers' Guild, with its several combinations, to be ob- noxious to the public interest, in limiting competition, in enhancing prices, and by the familiar use of its growing and facile powers tending to produce and propa- gate all the evils of monopoly. Certain dealers are refused admission into its ranks, others are admitted and afterwards expelled, others again are placed under its ban, who, from conscientious scruples or in a spirit of independence, refuse to join them. Merchants who have been buyers on equal terms and with equal facilities as other merchants, suddenly fid themselves under the power of this combination. Thus establishments, which in some cases are the growth of half a century of toil and honourable dealing, and rich in valuable experience and public confidence, are threatened with extinction. No reasonable excuse, much less justification, exists for many of these arbitrary acts and agreements. The wholesale grocery trade had been for many years in a flourishing condition ; failures were almost unknown. The alleged demoralization of the sugar trade was but the same condition of this trade that had existed for many years owing to the custom of selling sugar at a low rate of profits. The reason given for fixing prices on many other articles was that they were being sold at too small a rate of profit. Fixed profits were agreed upon and afterwards increased, and in no instance lowered, though values generally had fallen. It was seen that an association formed at first to arrange uniform terms of credit and discounts, and to prevent the dating ahead of invoices, etc., soon and rapidly extended its operations to more ambitious schemes. The power used, cautiously at first, soon grasped with a firmer hand, and at length, " the simple plan that they may take, who have the power," governed the operations of these associations* COAL COHSINATIONS, Combinations exist among Coal Dealers in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and liOndon. In Toronto a Coal Association has been in existence for some years, and in 1886 it was affiliated with the Toronto Board of Trade and designated as the Coal Section of this Board. In this coal section there are some 56 members, about half a dozen of whom are importers, and the others retailers, who get their supplies from the former at 75 cts, per ton less than the price charged the consumer. The aflfairs are managed by an executive committee, a majority of whom the constitution provides shall be importers. Hence the sources r f the controlling power of the importers, who are in other respects a privileged class, as their recorded minutes show that almost all the im- mense advantages of the combination accrue to their benefit. The cost of acquiring a membership in this coal section is one hundred dollars, paid into the funds of the Board of Trade, and twenty dollars to the coal section, in all $120. This section has its distinct constitution, by-laws and regulations, which in order to be operative require the sanction of the Council of the Board of Trade. The copy of its constitution and by-laws deposited with the Council and seeking its approval is not by any means identical with the copy deposited with us by the secretary of the coal section. This difference is wide, the latter having one clause in the consti- tution and eight special rules not found in the former. The most arbitrary rules are enacted. Detectives are employed and the dealers placed under surveillance — oaths of fidelity to the constitution and rules are required not only of the members, bat also of their salesmen, and the oaths in the cases of these employees are made in oome instances retroactive as well as prospective. All violations of oaths are adjadi> SXPORT. oated upon by the executive committee referred to, the penalties being heavy fines or expulsion. One sixth of all fines goes into the general funds of the coal branch and the remaining five-sixths are divided amongst the importers. The record shows three different fines imposed of $ 1,000 each. Thus the public is presented with the extraordinary spectacle of a mercantile association arrogating to itself powers conferred upon Law Courts alone, with, in this instance, the judges in the case virtually condoning perjary by the acceptance of fines to be divided amongst the importers. This phenomenon is not the less painful or less objectionable in character, from the association which perpetrates it being dis- tinguished by the respectable title of " The Coal Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade." Their management of public tenders is worthy of attention as an illustrative of how popular confidence is betrayed. When tenders are asked for supplying coal in Toronto for Dominion Government Buildings, Ontario CTOvernment institutions, To- ronto Water- Works, Public Schools, Charitable institutions, the General Hospital, etc., a meeting of the "Coal Branch " is called, and the price is fired which the party inviting tenders is to pay, and the privilege of filling the contract is awarded to the member who offers the highest premium or bonus. For instance, in 1886 for the privilege of filling the Ontario Government contract of about 2,500 tons, a premium of $1,500 was paid. The same contract, including some wood, was sold in 1887 for $1,399. The premiums thus paid are divided among the importing members in the Bame way as the fines. Bat in order to lull public suspicion of a combination, and that the parties to be supplied were not obtaining the coal at its fair market value, other members of the Branch put in tenders at higher prices. Citizen consumers in like manner pay, not competitive prices, but such fixed prices as the combination chooses to extort. In accordance with arrangements made with the American coal dealers, those ■who were in default in membership, either from inability to pay fines or from other oauses, were prevented from purchasing coal in the United States. The possibility of competition by outsiders or non-members is also carefully guarded against. Am- erican miners and exporters are prohibited by the Toronto coal section from shipping to anyone in Toronto who is not in the combination. For example, the Butler Colliery Company of Buffalo sold a schooner load of 254 tons of anthracite coal to Gooderham & Worts without obtaining the consent of the Toronto coal section. The latter body at once telegraphed the Buffalo association to have further shipments stopped and a heavy fine inflicted on the offenders. The subsequent proceedings are described in the following abstract fiom the minutes of the coal section of the Toronto Board of Trade:— Eesolved, That the matter of the shipments by the Butler Colliery Company to , Gooderham & Worts be left in the hands of the Toronto Committee in Buffalo, to be dealt with as the importance of the case demands, and it is farther resolved, that as the Butler Colliery Company have indicated their willingness to make reparation for the damage done this market through the shipment of coal to Gooderham & Worts, contrary to the rules cf this association, this committee are of the opinion that several thousand dollars would not be sufficient to undo the mischief, as the coal has been distributed among a large circle of friends and eoonoctions who freely informed their friends that they had succeeded in beating the coal ring and have got their coal at & large reduction from ring prices. However, in view of the prompt offer of the Butler Colliery Company, the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade are to be as reasonable as possible in their demandn, and will accept $1,000 as full satis- faction in this instance, and that the Secretary bo instructed vo forward a copy of this resolution to the Secretary of the Toronto Committee at Buffalo. The coal organization of Ottawa was formed on a more sciontifio, but not lesa effective plan than that last described, though dispensing with oaths and fines. The plan is copied from the American System of Trusts. An incorporated company was formed called the *' Ottawa Coal and Cartage Company." Three of the coal dealera are members of this company, and most of the others became affiliated with it. The BKPOST. Cartage Company transacted all the business except booking the orders and receiving the cash. They received the coal, brought it to the coal yards and distributed it ta the consumers. The retail price was fixed by the combination. At the beginning of the season a certain percentage of the net profits was agreed upon as the share of each dealer, and whether he sold coal or not, his profits were certain. The Cartage Company last year, after paying all expenses and the percentages or bonuses to the afGUiated members, divided more than $33,000 profits among the three shareholders, on a share capital of $15,000. In Montreal and London combinations also exist to keep up prices and control the market. These appear to be less oppressive than in Toronto and Ottawa, thonglt equally objectionable in principle. In Cobourg no combination exists. The best quality of coal is sold there at much lower prices than in Toronto, though the freight rates are almost identical. AGSIOTTLTURAL IMPLSMSirrS. The evidences of Mr. H. A. Massey of Toronto, Mr. Copp of Hamilton, and Mr A. W. Morris of Montreal, was conclusive to the effect that no combination exists among the manufacturers of Agricultural Implements. BABLET. Mr. W. D. Mathews, President of the Toronto Board of Trade, testified that no combination exists among the purchasers of Barley. BABBSD WIBS. An attempt was made during the past winter by the Barbed Wire manufacturers to secure uniform prices for their product. The agreement the retailer was asked to sign, bound nim to sell at 6^ cents per pound, the inducement being that he could purchase at &^ cents, which was a reduction of |^ of a cent from last year's price. COFI'IN MAKSBS AND UNDEBTAKBBS. The Coffin manufacturers and dealers in Undertakers' supplies have agreed with the Undertakers Afisociation to sell only to members of that organization. To beoomo a member requires the assent of the three nearest Undertakers, and afterwards the consent of two-thirds of the executive committee. It is easily seen that this consent cannot readily be obtained, and as a consequence it is extremely difficult and gener- ally impossible for a man to commence the business of an undertaker, as the association controls not only the sale of coffins and caskets, but also all fittings and Undertaker's supplies of every description. This combination is extensive in it» operations, most arbitrary in character, and exercises an unjustifiable interference with personal freedom. As in other combinations, its members are dealt with by fines and expulsions. The inevitable result of this exclusive control is exorbitant charges to bereaved families ; and wherever the hand of affliction most frequently flails the more oppres- sive the burden of this combination becomes. MANUPACTUBEBS OF COBDAGE AND BINOINO TWINE. This combination includes five firms engaged in the manu&cture of the above goods: The John A. Converse works in Montreal. £, Bannerman & Brother, Montreal. John Brown & Co., Quebec. Dartmouth Rope Works, Halifax, N.S. ThoB. Connor & Son, St. John, N.B. 8 REPORT. These five factories control a large portion of this basiness in the Dominion, and bave a capacity for manufacturing about twice the amount of binder twine consumed in Canada. There are some other factories not in the combination. Another establishment for making binder twine, and not in the combination, started in Brantford in 1887. ^ It is capable of turning out 500 tons per annum^ or about 20 per cent, of the total amount hitherto required in this country. The combination was first formed in November, 1884, and continued until May, 1887. It was then broken up, but reorganized in the following August. It was formed on the pooling plan, and was an agreement between the five firms named above, by which uniform prices were established, subject to change from time to time, and a percentage of the total sales within the Dominion allotted to each firm. Those manufacturing more than their percentage paid one and a half cents per pound on the excess into the pool, which was divided among those selling less than thoir allotted percentage. The effect of this arrangement was to secure uniformity of prices in binder twine, and avoid over-production. It is claimed that it also had the effect of raising the standard of quality. The evidence also shows that prices paid in Canada are no higher than in United States and Great Britain. The increased prices of both rope and binder twine in 1887 was accounted for by the advance in *- raw material, which advanced from £25 to £42 per ton. This was the result of the ' operations of an American syndicate, who have obtained control of the crop of munilla in all parts of the world. This combination terminated in April last, since the investigation began. THE CANADIAN IRON FOUNDERS' ASSOCIATION. This association was formed in 1865, and has continuously existed since that date; it now numbers 18 firms. Outside of the association thore are about 40 manu- facturers of the same goods, some of whom are large manufacturers, but the major- ity are small firms. The principal object of the association was " the fixing of a general uniform sale for stoves and other foundry wares." In 1875 resolutions were passed ordering a deposit of $100 by each member of the association, " which amount," the resolution reads, " shall be forfeited by any member who shall be guilty of an " infraction of prices as adopted by this, association;" and appointing a grievance committee of three, whose duties " shall be to investigate all charges referred to ** them, and whose decision in all cases shall be final ; and " should the committee ** fail to forthwith investigate any charges referred to them by the president, they *' shall each forfeit the sum of LOu. Also, " that it shall be the duty of each member *' of the association to notice any and all infractions of prices, and on satisfactory " evidence to enter a charge by giving notice to the president who shall at once place *' the matter in the hands of the committee." The following form of agreement was also adopted at the same meeting in 1875: ** We, the undersigned members, do hereby pledge our word of honour that we will fltrictly adhere to prices, terms and rules as stated in the foregoing report adopted by the association, both in letter and in spirit, and will hold ourselves responsible for ourselves, our firms, and our agents : and should a charge be sustained against either of our respective firms we individually agree to abide by the decision of tho committee and will not in consequence of such decision refuse to abide by the award. Nor will we withdraw from the association or claim any moneys forfeited by us." At a meeting in 1877 it was resolved that any member of this association be em- powered to offer and pay the sum of S50 to any customer who may furnish satislac- tory written proof from the seller that any member had ^ven better terms than those authorized by the association, paid $50 to bo paid from the funds. These provisions for fines, forfeitures and pledges were reaffirmed and strength- ened in subsequent years. At a mooting held in March, 1876, by resolution it was ordered, " that members were to keep secret the transactions of the association from Iron Founders, not members, and from all dealers." Price lists were established aanaally sinoe the REPORT. foundation of the association, with occasional modifications during the year at special meetings. The evidence of J. R. Esmonde and F. T. Graves, stove dealers of Ottawa, H. R. Ives, stove founder of Montreal, who is not a member of the association, and W". J. Copp, substantially agree that the operations of this combination had not resulted in unduly raising prices of goods affected by tbe combination, which were principally stoves of all grades . The evidence of these witnesses also show that the better class of these stoves was not higher in Canada than similar goods in the United States. Od a low class of stoves free from ornamentation which were made in the vicinity of the iron farnacep and coal mines there, the prices ranged lower than in Canada. Oa base burners Mr. Copp stated the prices were 10 per cent, lower in Canada than in the United States. Increased prices in late years were attributed to advance ia wages and raw material, and increased ornamentation. OATMEAL millers' ASSOCIATION. This association was recently formed for the purpose of sustaining the price o£ oatmeal, and as far as possible regulating the purchase price of oats. There are twenty -four mills in the combination, including the largest mills ia Ontario. They have also closed up ten other mills, the owners of which are paid sums varying from $300 lo 8800 per annum, or a total of 86,312 annually, a BntxL necessarily taken out of the extra profits, which sums are paid them by the associa- tion for non-production. The mills not in the association, numbering about twenty-five, are of such limited capacity for production, that their influence is not materially felt in the general market, but they avail themselves of whatever advantage the combination gives them to keep up prices. A certain percentage of the oatmeal production is allotted to each mill, and upon every barrel sold by any miller in excess of this allotment, he pays a premium of 30cts. per barrel into the association, and vice versa when any miller falls short of his allotment he receives an equal premium per barrel upon the quantity short. BISCUITS AND CONFECTIONERY. Separate organizations exist in these products among a large number of tho leading manufacturers in the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. A number of manu- facturers — but they are the smaller ones — are not members. The principal obj«ct is to maintain prices. The Biscuit Association has been in existence about six years, and although the prices of the ingredients used have in that time very materially decreased, the prices Ot biscuits have remained about the same. From the evidence, it seems clear that the result of the combination is to keep prices at higher figures than are justified by the prices paid for the raw material, and iltered conditions of trade, brought about by the introduction of new and improved machinery. It wa-« found by comparison with United States price lists, that Canadian goods are in some finer and fancy varieties 20 to 30 per cent, higher than goods of equal quality on the other side of the line. The Confectionery Association is of recent formation, and the usual result fol- lowed at once, viz,, a rise in the prices. FIRE INSURANCE. The evidence discloses the existence of a powerful association for the purpose of raising and maintaining rates of insurance. This combination was formed in lS8d «nd includes nearly all the stock companies, English, American and Canadian doing: business in Canada. Sums varying from $600 to $1)000 are paid annoaily b/eacbi 10 REPOBT. of the thirty-two companies into the association. The individaal companies are pledged to maintain rates, and if any cutting is discovered the offending company is oompelled to cancel the policy. No schedule of rates is fixed for farm or isolated risks. Owing to the competition of the mutual companies it was found impossible to control this line of business. Agents were required to sign an agreement not to do business for companies outside the aesociation, but for some reason this plan was re- pealed by the General Association, but was again adopted by the Toronto Board ■with which it is still in force. No reinsurance will be accepted from any non-tariff company, nor placed withr each company unless it is found impossible to place within the association. The effects upon the insuring public have been decidedly injurious. It extends^ its operations to every portion of the Dominion, and higher rates have been the rule In nearly every instance. Owing to the arbitrary character of the tariff and the rules adopted, little account can be taken of the moral hazard, t.e , the circumstances, necessities or repu- tation of applicants. In consequence of these conditions a large number of first-class risks in Canada,. «nd involving large amounts, are placed with companies in the United States, not iiaving offices in Canada, nor amenable to Canadian laws. Another tangible effect of a combination for the regulation of rates, is, that rates being equal in all companies, the tendency is, for insurers to place their risks either abroad or with foreign companies doing business in Canada, and possessed of larger ^capital and of longer standing than the native companies. This is rapidly tending towards the freezing out of the purely Canadian Insurance Companies, and opens up so Tery bright prospect for the shareholders whose money is invested in Canadian Joint stock insurance. * THS SOO OOMBINATION. This combination is of recent origin and is composed of the leading dealers in Ontario who buy for export. Their operations ramify throughout the Province of Ontario. The object of the combination is by keeping prices low in the principal citira to lower prices in the rural sections. Agents appointed by the association in the cities, will use supplies to force down the prices for home comsumption. Thi» will react in favor of their buyers in the country, who will thus buy cheaper for export. In localities where a rival buyer is found, a powerful ring can easily outbid bim until he is driven out of the business and the field left without a competitor, ^ith the natural result. The Committee find that the evils produced by combinations such as have been enquired into, have not by any means been fully developed as yet in this country, but sufficient evidence of their injurious tenden cies and effects is given to justify legislative action for suppressing the evils arisi ng from these and similar combina- tions and monopolies. The evidence given before the Committee and the accompanying exhibits are as a portion of this report respectfully submitted. N. CLAEKB WALLACE, Chairntan of Committee, COMMIHEE ON TRADE COMBINATIONS. REFERBED TO IN THE FOREGOING REPORT. SECTION I.-SUGAR AND GROCERIES. House of Commons, Ottawa, 9th March, 1888. The Select Committee on Trade Combines met at 10 a.m. to-day, with the Chair- man, Mr. N. C. Wallace, presiding. Gkorqe Lightboitnd, of the firm of Lightbound, Balston & Co., Montreal, was sworn, when at the request of the Chairman he made the following statement: — Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen : — Peihaps the simplest way of putting the facts of the sagar combination before you will be to commence with its inception and follow its ooorse up to the present day. The sugar combination did not originate, as many people have supposed, with the refiners. For some years past tbere has existed throughout the Dominion what is known as the Wholesale Grocers' Association or the Wholesale Grocers' Guild. This question of a combination in sugar was discussed at several meetings of the Wholesale Grocers' Association and the outcome of these discussions in that Association was a meeting in Montreal held in the Windsor Hotel at which were present the representatives of the various wholesale grocers through- out the Dominion and the representatives oJ the refiners working throughout the Dom- inion. There were present at that meeting Mr. Drummond, representing the Canada Sugar Eefinirg Company, Mr. Elmenhorst and Mr. Labatt, representing the St. Xiawrence Betining Company, and Mr. Harris, representing the Moncton refinery, while they had a letter from the president of the JNova Scotia refinery at Halifax stating that the owners of that refinery wonid agree to whatever decision was ai^ rived at at this general meeting held in the Windsor Hotel. By the Chairman : Q. That is the whole of the refineries in operation in the Dominion ? A. Yes, at that time. Within the last two weeks another refinery has re-opened. By Mr. Bain ( Soulanges) : Q. What is the date of that meeting ? A. 20th April, 1887, it was in April of last year. At that meeting the refiners were told that the Wholesale Guild had &U tempted to arrange the combination amongst themselves ; that there were certain merchants throughout the Dominion who for reasons of their own did not see their way to coincide with that style of doing business and wished to have the liberty of conducting their business in a way that suited themselves. The refiners were then asked to discriminate against these wholesale grocers who would not become parties to the combination by making them pay a half a cent a pound more upon granulated sugar than the members of the guild paid. The refiners after discussing the matter amongst themselves agreed to charge those who were not members of the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, or, rather, those who were not members of the combine- on, a quarter of a cent a pound more than for what they would sell the same sugar h 12 GEORGE LIGHTBOUND. to the members of the guild. Well, this came into force some ten days later, as soon as the docaments were signed, and I believe one of the early days in May it became law that any members of the Grocers' Guild, or wholesale merchants, who were not members of the sugar agreement were called upon to pay the refiners a quarter of a cent a pound upon all white sugar they purchased more than what was paid by members of the agreement. This continued for some months and the Wholesale Orocers' Guild discovered that this quarter of a cent a pound was not a sufficient tax upon those outside to prevent them continuing business. They then called another meeting and at the latter part of June, one of the last days of June, they held a meeting in the council room of the Board of Trade in Montreal. At this meeting the representatives of the refiners, Mr. Drummond and Mr. Blmenhorst, of the two Montreal refineries, were present. The wholesale grocers, I may mention, held a meeting on the morning of that day previous to the meeting of the refiners and at that meeting they passed a resolution asking the refiners to decline to sell sugar at «,ny price to those who would not enter into the sugar agreement. This was submitted at the meeting in the afternoon, and Mr. Drummond, representing the Canada Sugar Hofining Company, expressed his willingness to agree to this if the association could Hot see any other way out of the difficulty. Q. In saying white, do you mean yellow ? A. I mean white only. The com- bination only deals in white sugar, owing to the difficulty in grading yellow sugars. It is all white sugar. The union in the trade is in white sugars. Tbe outcome, however, of that meeting held in the Board of Trade rooms was that, within a week or ton days afterwards, an agreement was arrived at whereby the refiners charged those who were outside the combination one-half a cent per pound more upon white eugar than they charged the members of the sugar agreement. By Mr. Quillet : Q. That is discount ? A. They allowed discount. The discount was on the Belling price. Well, subsequently to this it was discovered that, owing to the low prices of sugars in Glasgow and Liverpool, it was just barely possible to pay the very neavy duty that fine sugais had to pay coming into this country, and that the gen- tlemen who were not in the sugir agreement could lay these sugars down in Canada, and at the same time were in a position to sell them with a profit at or slightly be- low the price that the gentlemen of the combination were selling at, and do so with profit. When the refiners and wholesale grocers in the agreement discovered that this was possible, they held another meeting in the Board of Trade rooms, I believe, in Montreal, on the ItJth and l7th days of December. Of course, it is not possible for me to tell you all that transpired at a meeting which was private; I can only tell you what the outcome of that meeting was. The outcome of that meeting was that in luture^ those outside the guild, or sugar agreement, were called upon to pay a half a cent per pound more. Then, when later it was found that that did not work and that those outside the agreement could still carry on their business and bay sugars elsewhere, they thought some other method would have to be taken. The next step taken in December was that these gentlemen who were not parties to the sugar agreement, were called upon to buy their sugars on an entirely diflferent basis than members of the combination. Members of the combination purchased eugars at the refinery with a discount of two and half per cent, for cash. After this date in December, those who were not members of the combination were called upon to pay an eighth of a cent per pound advance upon the sugar aodmot receive a cent of discount. By Mr. Bain (Soulangea) : Q. Which sugar? A. Wbite sugar, all granulated. In addition to this, gentle- men, in order to make it impossible tor any man to conduct his business in the way that I contend every merchant should have a right, those outside the oombinaiion were called upon, when buying 500 barrels of white sugar, they were obliged to boy at the same time from the same refinery 1,000 barrels of yellow sugar, whether they •wanted yellow sugar or not, that is to say : If I get 500 birrels of granulated sugar from Nova Scotia refinery, and if I wished to Jauy 1,000 barrels of yellow sugar eiso- SUGAR AND GROCERIES. 13 where, I must bny double the quantity of yellow eugar at the same time that I buy the granulated and from the same refiner. This meant that the merchant could not conduct his business. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Those who were members were not under that rule ? A. Those who wer& members could buy twenty-five barrels or any quantity. By the Chairman : Q. However, the fact is that you do buy two or three barrels of yellow sugar ta one of white ? A. Oh, not necessarily. At the same time the consumption of yellow BUgar is probably in the neighborhood of two or three barrels to one of white. Q. The grievance is that you had to invest the money at the place, and at a time when you did not require it ? A. The grievance is that we had to pay mor& for our sugar than a member of the combination had to pay. Q. In addition to that you had to buy this quantity ? A . This was simply another turn of the screw. Q. What was this last arrangement of an eighth of a cent more? A. Not only- had they 2^ per cent, discount which was made on granulated, it was 7f per lb. at that time. The merchant outside the combination had to pay 7i net cash, making a difference of 29 or 30 cents on 100 lbs., which simply made it impossible for him to conduct his business. By Mr. Qillmor : Q, Members of the guild got that advantage ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Besides being relieved from the necessity of buying yellow ? A. Yes, they could buy any kind of sugar they wanted. This would tend to make it impossible for anyone outside the combination to conduct his business. By the Chairman ; Q. They first charged these outsiders a half a cent more ? A. No, a quarter of a cent more. They aeked a half a cent and the refiners finally consented to charge a quarter. That was in April and they found that that did not work owing to the fact that those outside had accumulated stocks, and had contracted in advance for sugars, and the market kept falling, and they were able still to carry on their busi- ness, but in June the guild came together again and the result was that the refiners agreed to charge those outside the combination a half a cent per pound. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Sugars were advancing at this time ? A. Yes, they were advancing at this time. It was simply a question of judgment buying in advance and still conducting^ their business. Q. But for the advance in price the first arrangement would have been suffi- cient 'f A. Yes, the first arrangement would have been sufficient. It would have been an interesting calculation for anyone purchasing at a quarter of a cent a pound in advance and make any money. They asked the refiners to charge half & cent a pound more and they agreed to do so. Notwithstanding the charge of a half a cent per pound we were enabled to bring in Scotch and English granulated sugar and they called the refiners togeiher again and asked them to make this new arrange- ment whereby anyone outside the combination who wished to purchase 500 barrels of granulated was obliged to take 1,000 barrels of yellow sugar and pay from 90 cents to $1 a barrel upon the yellow and granulated. If I were buying 500 barrels of granulated I would have to buy 1,000 bai-rels of yellow and I would be out $l,50O on that transaction. By Mr. Bain (Soulanges) : ' Q. Did those outside tiie guild get the discount in the same way ? A. Not after last December. By the Chairman : Q. What time had you for making payment ? A. Fourteen days. They did not alter the time. They simply made it net cash in 14 days. That is the recog- nized refiners' terms, 14 days less 2^ per cent, discount. These are known as refiners 14 OKOaaK LiaHTBOUND. 'terms, and after December any person outsi'le the association or oatside the combi- nation had to pay net cash and one-eighth of a cent per pound in addition. By Mr. McKay : Q. Did you say that all the refiners were in this combine ? A. All the refiners are in the combination now. By Mr. Bain {Soulanges) : Q. All the refiners in Canada ? A. All the refiners in Canada. The owners of a refinery recently started again or revived has signified their intention of going into the combination al.-o. The refiners, I understand, also, take up the position that they are not parties to this agreement. Anyone who can take the facts which I have just given you and at the same time believe that the refiners are not a party to it, must be gifted with very much more faith than is in my composition. The best proof of the fact that the refiners are parties to the arrangement lies in the fact that if any person goes into the Canada Sugar Refinery's office they see posted on the window or on the door of the room a list similar to the one I think which I have in my pocket (Witness produces list). That, Mr. Chairman, is the list of those who are entitled to buy sugar under this combination arrangement. (Exhibit No. 1.) By the Chairman : Q. I see some of the names are erased. What are they ? A. They are retailers and general jobbers, afterwards found to be unworthy to partake of the benefits of the combination. There is a large class of retailers who in connection with their job and distributing business, had been in the habit of purchasing direct from the re- finers. Q. What is the test of a man being admitted to the Wholesale Grocers' Guild? Has he not to prove whether he sells directly to the consumer or not ? Mr. GuiiiLET. — Has he not to be balloted for ? A. No, anyone who can provo that he does not sell direct to the consumer, and is willing to sign the agreement. By Mr. Guillet : Q. If he is not a retailer ? A. Yes. Q. But in the first place they did not admit them ? A. Yes. Q And afterwards they were forced to admit them ? A. They were forced to admit the retailers in the first instance. The representation of the guild to the re- finers was that they represented 93 percent, of the trade of Canada, but in this 9i per cent, were included some 12 or lit whom they have since turned out. Q. Forced out ? A. Yes, and in addition to that they have a number of names -^iown there ot parties who were only purchasing a small quantity, but they formed part of the 93 per cent. However, the refiners made this arrangement, and I claim that it is not a dignified position for the refiners to take, or the combination to take, to state that they were not parties to this agreement. They have assumed the re- «pon8ibility and they cannot get out of it. But as a matter of fact, a gentleman who has not got his name upon the sugar agreement cannot go in and buy sugar unless he pays this advance. A gentleman stated that the combination does not imply higher prices. That is just about as logical as that a high tariff does not imply higher prices. As a matter of course, the combination implies higher prices. That is the only logical conclusion that can be arrived at. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. As a result of both ? A. Yes. The Chairman —That is a matter of opinion whether a high tariff means high prices or not. By Mr. McKay : Q. We can see as to that — what is the additional sum which the consumer has to pay for sugar? A. As the Chairman pointed out, that will have to be matter of opinion. Q. Of figures, I should judge 7 A. The advance that the combination places apon sugar is upon 15 barrel lots an advance of fc, or upon smaller quantities aa advance of ^c. a pound. STTQAB AND GROCERIES. 15 By Mr. Guillet : Q. They organized this grocers' gaild with a view of obtaining larger profits. They claimed that they were selling sugar at cost. la it not so ? A. It was no doubt a fact that before this combination was formed merchants did not get as large a return npon the investment of their capital as they were entitled to, bat that is & matter which certainly ought not to be settled by any such arbitrary determinatioa. If gentlemen have no ability to conduct their own business without a combination then let them retire from it and go into some other business which they have the necesaary ability to conduct. Q. It raises the price of sugar to the retailers ? A. Yes. By Mr. McKay : Q. Can you give us an idea how much it has increased the price — 5, 10 or 15 per <5ent. ? A. I have told you already. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Perhaps Mr. Lightbound could give us the price of granulated sugar on the market ? For instance, a quarter of a cent was not sufficient to keep the business in the hands of the guild. Now can you give us the price at which sugar was able to be sold at that time? A. In the month of April the refiners' price for granulated «agar was 6c. or 6| give them the simple option between taking their proper position and retiring from the combination or lower the duties. By the Chairman : Q. Yon think there ia no other remedy 7 A. I don't think so. SUQAB AND GROCEaiES. 23 By Mr Wood ( Westmoreland) : A. Would that affect the guild combination at all? A. It might or it might not. By the Chairman : Q. How would that affect the Grocers' Guild. They might still combine. They are not manufacturers, and you say they are the chief sinners in the whole transaction. They can still combine to keep up the prices of sugar to the retailer? A. They could not from the fact that they could not get a combination up without the aid of the refiners. Q, We have caees of other combinations being kept up without the aid of tho home manufacturers ? A. Well, I don't think so. Q. In coal for instance ? A. Yes, in coal there may be that. Q. There is no home manufacturers ? A. Coal is not manufactured here, of course. Q. That would make a parallel case with the duly taken off sugar and sugar not manufactured here, there would be a parallel case with coal? A. I think the refiners would accept the position and get out of it gracefully. They have made mistake by going into this combination. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. How does it affect the oatmeal combination ? A. I don't know anything at all about it . By the Chairman : Q. You say there are other combinations in groceries between the manufacturer and the dealer here in Canada; name what articles? A. Well thejre is baking powder and also Eddy matches. Q. The baking powder manufacturers put the prices? A. No, there is only the Cook's Friend Baking Powder of Montreal, McLaren . That is only an arrange* ment by which we purchase in any case. Q. Then, as a matter of principle, you object to the sugar combination — as a matter of principle— but you don't object to the Cook's Friend on the same principle because it is a smaller matter ? A. Well, the mere fact of a combination of price— the consumer bays a pound of Cook's Friend Baking Powder. He uses that a long time. It would not make as much difference as the advance you pay on sugar in a week. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. As a matter of principle ? A. I am not discussing principle. By the Chairman : Q. I think you were objecting to the*8ugar combination on principle? A. As a business principle. Q. As a business matter you make more by being in a sugar combination than by being out of it ? A.I claim that it is better to be out of it, and therefore I object to be into it. Q. It does ensure you a profit? A. It might pay me to do my sugar business without a profit, and if it occurs to me to present my friends with a barrel of sugar I should be at perfect liberty to do so. I claim the liberty so long as I pay for my goods of selling them at any price that suite me best. Q, Name the other combinations ? A. That is the only one that occurred to me. I think there is a combination in pickles also, but I am not interested in them in any way. Q. Tobacco? A. Yes. Q. What else. A. I am not in the tobacco combination. I simply sell at the combination price. We dare not do otherwise. Q. You agree to sell at 4 cents per pound advance ? A. We did not agree to it; we haven't signed any tobacco papers ; but the wholesale grocers' guild we know, as a matter of fact, if we departed from this price, the manufacturer would imme- diately suspend our supplies. Q. You don't sell at anything less than 4 cents advance ? A. I have not. 24 GBORGE LIQHTBOUND. By Mr. McKay : Q. You haven't objected to this tobacco combine publicly ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) ; Q. Would this remedy you propose apply to tobacco? A. You can scarcely approach the manufacturer of tobacco in that way. We haven't entered into a combi- nation. By the Chairman : Q. Are all tobaccos under this agreement that you are to sell at an advance of 4 cents. Macdonald, in black tobaccos, has control of the market ? A. Largely so ; yes. Q. Does not this apply to colored tobaccos. Do you find that dealers are very anxious to sell to you. For instance, that new manufacturer in Toronto, Mc Alpine ? A. I never asked that question, but I don't think they would sell if they supposed we were going to sell at less than the guild price. Q. They are in the guild then ? A. No, they are not in the guild, but the guild sell their tobaccos at a fixed advance. Q. The guild regulates the matter and they control the refiner and the manu- facturer just the same as they do the sugar refiner, then they come in themselves to out oflF your supply ? A. Well I don't know exactly the modes, but I know the , result. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. The result is practically the same ? A. Yes, practically the same. Q. Would it be practicable to apply the same remedy as to sugar ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Is that the only remedy you can suggest ? A. That is the only remedy I can suggest, or that a law should be introiuced defining that any such combination means a conspiracy at law, I have had a legal opinion given me already that this is the case, but opinion must differ very much, and it seems to me that if it were clearly defined that any such arrangement as exists between the merchants and the refiners amounted in law to a conspiracy, and if any merchant who suffered from that could take action under that law, it would answer the purpose. Q. Do you think it would remeay the diflficulty ? A. Lt would remedy the dif- £culty in connection with the sugar agreement within 24 hours as far as I kn"w. Q. You told us a little while ago that it would be better to lower the duty ? A. That would be better ; perhaps you will allow me, like the Quaker, to change my mind. By Mr. Fisher : Q. As I understand it, you would make a law by which conspiracy as an ar- rangement between the wholef^ale dealer and the manufacturer should be a con- spiracy, but when it was an arrangement amongst the wholesalers alone it would not be a conspiracy ? A. 1 was not dealing with that question at all. Q. As I understand Mr. Lightbound, before he did not consider it at all wrong for the wholesalers to agree amongst themselves for any definite price ? A. So loog as the wholesale merchants themselves were of that opinion, but when they turn around and say "unless you abide by our arrangements you will have to go out of the business " — that is what these arrangements mean — they tried to force us into the combination or out of the business. By the Chairman : Q. You have said that the only other combinations that you are in are the Cook's Friend Baking Powder, Eddy's matches, and all Canadian tobaccos? A. I flaid beyond that: I am rot in the tobacco arrangement, but they were sold at this price and if we did otherwise we would not get any supplies. Q. That is practically the same ? A, Yes, in the practical working of it. By Mr Fisher : Q. Have you signed any agreement for Eddy's matches and baking powder ? A. We were obliged to do it. I got a notice from Eddy's agents in Montreal, H. A. SUQAit AND QROCSRIESt 25 Nelson & Sods, that we coald not have any more matches, and we had to sign the arrangement. Q. On the tobacco question, if at any time the wholesale combination chose to say you must sign an agreement, you would have signed that agreement? A. Yea, I would have signed it provided ihe manufacturer took the same position as the guild. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What is the profit on matches? A. Well, they have a scale of profits. I think anything under five cases the profit is 50 cents per case and over five cases 25 cents per case. Q. What per cent, would that be about ? A. It would be about 8 or 10 per cent. By Mr. Guillet : Q, The manufactarers regulate these prices ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What do you consider that, a lair profit or a large profit ? A. It is a pretty good profit lor grocers, 10 per cent. By the Chairman : , Q. What do you give for a case of matches ? A* We sometimes pay $2.00 a case aad sometimes $3.00. Eddy's matches, if I remember right, the price is $2.50 and 43.U0 a case, that is cost price. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Can you suggest any remedy for that ? Yoa consider that a grievance do you ? A. Not as telling a grievance as the sugar cooabination. Q. Does it not involve the same principle, would not the law applicable to the I one apply to the other ? I understand you deal in matches ? A. 1 said I objected i to this on business principles. He is taking it on very moral principles, I am simply taking it on business principles, as the sugar combination affects me. Q. I was not speaking on the moral aspect of the question, I was speaking on business principles. The manufacture of sugar and the manufacture of matches as between them, I asked you if the same remedy that applies to sugar would apply to matches, or whether one was a grievance in the same 6ense as the other ? A. One is not a grievance in the same sense as the other, for this reason that we in oar limited business turn over something like $303,0 )0 or $400,000 worth of sugar every year. We turn over probably about $3,000 or $1,000 perhaps, within $10,000 of all the&e other articles, including tobacco, on which there is a combination . By Mr. McKay: Q. But the question of sugar is a more serious one ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. One interferes with business considerably while the other does only to a very trifling extent ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Mere business principles involved? A. Yes. Q. Would not the sacae remedy be applicable in principle to the other articles ? A. It might or it might not. I am not aware that we could import the same matches as cheaply from outside sources as we can get them here. These are cheaper in Canada than in any other country. Q. Then a protective duty on matches does not affect the price as far as they are concerned? A. No. Q. The profit on matches is 20 percent., but on single cases only 10 per cent. By the Chairman : Q. I understood yoa to say that the profit on a box was 50 cents, which would be 20 per cent. ? A. 25 to 50 cents on the box. ' When lam speakmijrof them, I am speaking of the definite arrangements on Eddy's matches — $2.51) to 83 per box. Q. Vou make 50 cents a box on them ? A. Yes. Q. 1 sventy per cent, in that case and in the sugars only ^ve per cent. ? A. That might be the case, but as a matter of fact, all the matches we soil in the year does not amount to much as regards our business. Sugar, perhaps represents one-third of GKOBQE LIGHTBOUND. a wholesale grocer's business, and for many reasons it is objectionable to us, and especially from the standpoint that I claim the right to sell sugar at any price at which I see fit. It is altogether unfair that by this combination we have to sell at a certain price. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Mr. Lightbound, the reason, if I understand you aright, is thai the reduction of the duties on matches would not aflfect the principles involved. You could not import the matches? A. I do not think that we should import them or attempt to import them. It is a small matter. We would never sell enough to bother about . Q. Supposing the duties on sugar were reduced, would that really prevent the refiners from entering into an arrangement with the Grocers' Goild or the wholesale grocers ? A. No ; but it would make it interesting for the refiners . Q. How would it? A. If, under a tariff of 01.50 per 100 lbs. and 35 per cent. ad valorem and *l\ per cent, on the total duty, we could bring in sugar last year and compete with the refinery prices, and stay outside of the combination, it would be very simple if the duties were lower. Q. Could not the refiners, under any arrangement of duties, combine and obtain from the wholesale grocers whatever profit or protection the duties gave them ? A. No, because we could bring in outside sugars and prevent it. Q* If the duties gave them no protection at all they could combine and make whatever profit that protection gave them up to that time ? A. Up to that point. If under this high tariff we could do it, it would be very much easier if the tariff were lower. Q. Then if 1 understand you, that principle would involve the necessity of the Government, in arranging the duties, to determine the profit that the refiners should make ? A. I do not exactly see that point. Q Well, the Government would determine the point at which these foreign sugars could be imported and compete with the domestic manufacture ? A. I suppose they claim to have done that already. Q. The principle you suggest, that is regulating the tariff, would be imposing upon the Government the necessity of doing that and to decide when the refiners were making a fair profit ? A. The Government, I suppose, have done that already in fixing it at one and a-half cents per lb. and 35 per cent, ad valorem and 7^ per cent, upon the total duty. They have assumed that was necessary in order that the refineries should exist here. Q. That may be, but that does not necessarily fix the profits of the refiners as I andtrstand it. They have decided that on different principles that it was necessary to have a high protective duty in order to enable sugar to be refined in Canada. Do you know the bounties 'that are paid in Germany and France on refined sugars ? A. Something like two and a half cents per pound. Q. On refined sugars for export? A. About that. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The export bounty. What is the export bounty in the States? A. The bounty in the States is $2.40. By Mr. Wood {Westmoreland); Q. A drawback ? A. Yes, I cannot tell you whether that drawback represents the actual duty on raw material or whether it constitutes the bounty or not. I understand it does constitute a bounty of 20 cents per 100 pounds. I am not stating my own opinion, but I am merely giving the current impression. Q. Do you know whether the bounties in France and Germany have been lowered recently ? A. I do not. • Q. I am informed that they are lower now than they were in 1887 ? A. I do not know. Q. Are you prepared to eay what reduction should be made in duties at the present time to accomplish the object you speak of? A, No, I am too modest to do that. I leave that to the Legislatures of the countries to determine. SUGAR AND QROCBBIES. 2T Q. The Legislatures are anxious to get information from practical men, because we really do not know, at least, I for one don't. Suppose the duties wei o reduced to-day to the point that you speak of? A. I have not spoken of any point. Q. I understood you to say that the remedy for this was to reduce the duties to a point that foreign sugais would be imported without allowing the refiners to make too large a profit. You have not said jast what that profit should be as I understand. Suppose that was done tc-day and the tariff in either the United States or France or Germanv — that is the export duty or drawback on exported sugar — was changed so as to pay a larger or smaller bounty, how would that affect it? A. I do not quite follow that. Q. Suppose, that with the existiug tariffs in the United States or Prance or Germany our tariff was so arranged that foreign sugar would be imported at the present time ; if there was a change made in the export duty of these different coun- tries, that would necessitate a change in our tariff? A. To correspond ? Q, Yes, to correspond. We would really then be changing our tariff whenever the export duty was changed in other countries ? A. You may be called upon to do that under the present tariff. Q. If the present tariff was much higher than was necessary to keep out import- ed sugar was it not the result of having been fixed when the bounties were higher in those countries ? A. No. Q. And alter the relative condition of things ? A. No, because our importations last year were from England where there was no drawback whatever, no duty and no drawback. I do not see how that affects the case, because your tariff is always liable to being changed by the alteration of the duties of other countries. If the United States changed the duty on tobacco, you would have to change it here to correspond. ByMr.Guillet: Q. The raw sugar that is used by the Glasgow refiners would be beet sugar, upon which there was a bounty ? A. To some extent, I think they mix it. Br/ the Chairman : *"^:^ Q. That Glasgow sugar is not pure cane sugar then ? A.I could not state that, Q. I understood you to state that to Mr. Guillet ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They manufacture granulated sugar out of beet root ? A. I think they mix it. A refiner could only tell you that. There may be a small percentage of oane. Q. The percentage of cane is not more than 20 per cent., is it not ? A. I do not know. ^- ,^:'i^., z. ^^^ By the Chairman : Q. What is the cost of Scotch granulated sugar laid down in Montreal, the cur- rent quotation ? A.I fancy Mr. Mathewson would be able to answer that more definitely, I think it >if ould be about 7Jc. per lb. By Mr. Fisher: Q. What is the price in Glasgow ? A. Seventeen shillings. Q. Three and a half cents per lb. ? A. And 7^. here. By the Chairman ;"^f^^-^:- Q. What is the cost of granulated sugar in Montreal today? A, Seven cents, less, two and a half per cent, to those in the combination. (Exhibits 2 and 3.) By Mr. Boyle: Q. Seventeen shillings for 112 lbs.? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. The price of granulated sugar to-day in Montreal is seven cents per lb., less two and a-half cents discount ? A. Yes. Q. There is no discount on imported sugar ? A. No, you can get a discount in Scotland if you buy it at IT shillings. By Mr. Boyle: Q. Mr. Lightbound, you say you think that there is no combination as to prices- amoDg refiners ? A . 1 do not think so at present. 28 GEORGE LIQHTBOUND. Q. You submitted a telegram here from the Moncton refinery which was in effect an agreement to ship goods at certain prices, provided the guild consented? A. Yes, to allow a certain discount. Q. The entire consent of the guild was necessary. There were two telegrams, as I understand it ? A. They were pretty much about the same thing. It was simply to prove the oonnection between the refiners and the guild. (Exhibits 5 and 6.) By Mr. Fisher : Q. You could not get the sugar unless the guild consented ? A. I could not get the discount. By Mr. Boyle : Q. This combine is altogether among the wholesale grocers ? A. The whole- sale grocers and refiners. Q. Was there not a rod of terror held over the refiners by the wholesale grocers 7 A. You can call it what you like. It amounts to one and the same thing in the end. The refiners do not sell to us. The proof of that is in the telegram and also in the fact that the refiners have a list of the members of the combination in the office. Q. Bat the fact appears to be that while the refiners have not a fixed price on their sugars the wholesale grocers have a fixed price for selling them. This Monc- ton refinery appeared anxious to transact some business with you, did it not ? A. Under restraint. Q. Under the wholesale grocers. They put themselves in that position because the wholesale grocers can boycott them . While on the one hand the wholesale grocers are dictating terms to the retailer, they are on the other hand dictating terms to the refiners ? A. Yes. By Mr. McKay: Q. The refiners went into the guild for the same reason as Mr. Lightbound ? A. Not in the guild. They simply signed the agreement. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Coerced into it in a measure by the wholesale grocers' guild ? A; They were coerced into it. By the Chairman : Q. They put the screw on the refiners? A. The individual refiners were pro- bably coerced, but the refiners in the first place had a clear position. They might have said: " Gentlemen, we cannot do it." What could the merchants do ? They could not get the sugar anywhere else. By Mr. Flynn: Q. Did they dictate to the refiners? A. Every Friday, as I understood it, the secretary of the j^juild will go into the refinery office and will say : " What is your price for granulated to-day?" and if he says seven cents, then he sends out that figure as the price, with an advance of f of a cent to those who are not in the guild. By Mr. McDougall (Pictou) : Q. As to these combinations, do you know any country where it has been declared a conspiracy to fix the prices in thin way? A. I have been told of a case that was tried in the United States some year or two ago, and that the matter had been decided to be a conspiracy; but I never had the particulars of the case. After that I had a legal opinion, and my solicitor told me that all the parties to this, inclttdin;^ the refiners, were open to indictment for conspiracy. I did not go on with the matter, because I found I would have to go into the criminal courts, and I did not wish to do that. Most of these gentlemen, although I differ from them in this matter, are my friends, and we do not want to bring the^ matter jnto the criminal ooarts if it can be avoided. By Mr. McKay : Q. The result of what I have heard you say is this : The guild has succeeded in fixing it 60 that wholesale dealers make a profit of not more than 5 per csnt. on sugar ? A. On an even market. SUGAB AND GROCERIES. 2^ Q. You don't object to the prices, but the principle of being forced into this association? A. Yes; it is a matter of opinion whether 5 per cent, is too great a profit or not. There is nothing, however, to prevent this association from making the advance double what it is to-day. There is nothing to prevent these sugar com- binations, which are satisfied with 5 per cent, to-day, not being satisfied with 15 per cent, next year. By Mr. Fisher: Q. And there is nothing to prevent them making an arrangement with the retail guild ? A. They might do so. Q. Was it not because you and Mr. Matthewson were outside the guild that some of these retail men were able to get supplies ? A. Yes, to some extent. J. A. Matthewson sworn. By the CJiairman : Q. "Would you kindly make your statement? A. The sugar combination as it exists to-day had its origin in the guild. The first of it was in Montreal. It was first called the Wholesale Grocers' Association, I believe, for I never joined it, and was in Montreal. From Montreal this association spread in various parts of the country, as the list before you will show, to London, Hamilton, Brantford and other places. In all some eight or nine places. These guilds or associations —they call them guilds in the west, I believe — are all practically one in spirit. To this thing I will positively and persistently object. They are wrong in principle and from the first I objected to having anything to do with it. The reason is clear in my mind. By very gentle persuasion and a good deal of oil, I was first approached to join this thing in Montreal, but I did not walk into that parlor and I have not walked in since, because I maintain the right to conduct the business I have to do with as I think proper. I will, if you will allow me, ehow why I objected to the origination of this thing. My position in this matter may be. different from some others. This is an association of wholesale grocers. My objections are based on three articles, Nos. 15 and 16 (Exhibit 7) of the main articles and No. 6 of the subsequent series of resolutions. Up to fifteen and sixteen they are in substance principles to which I have no objection, that is to have an association for the general good, all of which I approve of. Fifteen reads: — " That there shall be a committee of three elected by ballot at the annual meeting to serve for one year, whose duty it shall be to revise and fix lowest selling prices on any article or articles that may be unanimously agreed upon by the association, and whenever any change takes place on the manufacturers' or producers' regular price list, it shall be their duty to notify every member of this association of such price in any manner they think best." Article 16 is as follows: — " Any firm or individual belonging to this association who shall sell the articles stipulated, or allow them to be sold for less than the prices fixed by the committee, shall be reported to the committee of arbitration, and upon conviction of that fact to the satisfaction of the committee, said member shall be expelled from the association by a majority of the votes at any regular meeting, a vote of censure shall be placed on the records and reported to all tlbe manufacturers of the articles in question." As to the secrecy of this association the rules say (Exhibit 7) : — " Members of this association sball be in honor bound to keep strictly eecretany of the aflfairs of the aescciation ." This is the affair of lour years ago, but I have reason to believe that the others are substantially the same, the only difference being that they are called guilds and the Montreal one called itself an association. It is practically the same thing with authority centreing in Toronto. This is my opinion from information gathered in various ways, of course. This Dominion Guild started with some other articles. It started with coal oil, for instance. First, the parties were to sell a ^0 3, A, MATTHSWSON. certain number of barrels at a certain price, and a certain other number at another price, and deliver certain quantities ; but in a very short time this was broken up. The thing was broken through and it came to nothing. We were told very distinctly if we refused to sign it : — " Well, it will be made pretty hot for you, and you will not get any goods from any quarters." However, we managed to get goods all along. We have managed to get sugar notwithstanding all these arrangements that have been carried out to prevent us doing so. Another reason why I object to it is, I have been a long while in business ; longer than any of these gentlemen who came to me ; and to be put at the disposal of any committee who might come into my house and say : " We will fix the price of this thing and we will insist on the prices of these things being so and so," was one of the reasons why I distinctly opposed it. I had my own judgment about this matter that it was wrong, and I also had a long experience giving me to understand that matters of this kind never came to any- thing. There were always ways of defeating it. By Mr. Landry : Q. You were not afraid of it being less profitable to you ? A. We had to take all the risk of being crushed out of any of these articles. Q. Had you any reason to believe that the action of this committee would in any way lessen yoar profits ? A. I did not enter into it. I thought it was a matter of right and wrong. Q. The object was to increase the profits ? A. I dare say they had such an object ; but I intended to carry on my own affairs as I saw fit. The whole thing is wrong. This thing, however, has continued and we have been badgered and worried and an- noyed by all possible annoyances since that period with various articles. We have managed under Divine Providence to sustain ourselves ever since, notwithstanding all this ; but the culmination of this affair has been in this sugar matter. When the con- versation has been upon this matter, we have been asked : " Can nothing be done ? " Of course, I cannot honorably as a merchant object to anything being done that is honorable. We could sell sugar in an honorable way. I see very strong reasons, however, for objecting to a secret committee selecting certain articles and then say to those who will not go in with us to carry out our articles shall be boycotted and subjected to pains and penalties by the worst inquisition that Canada has ever seen. It is the greatest conspiracy this country has ever seen, this sugar combination. From the first we were given a certain time to sign these papers — papers which, as Mr. Lightbound has said, had to be signed about the end of April. We refused, and then we had visits from distinguished parties from a distance. The gentlemen from a distance came down to squeeze us in Montreal, and went around and got signatures ; amongst others they got the names of certain parties who were in the retail business. They got their names amongst the early signatures ; but you see by this blotting out (Exhibit 1) that they are not on the list now. They were made use of as tools to carry out this outrageous arrangement and having made use of them they were dis- pensed with, very greatly to their annoyance and wrong. That is the position that occupies. They started as Mr. Lightbound very properly stated with refined white Bugar, or refined hard, or whatever you may like to call it to distinguish it from the yellows. One fourth of a cent was put on those who refused to sign those papers, as it is here on record . They put one- fourth of a cent on all refined sugars. Q. Did the refiners do that or the wholesale dealers ? A. I did not get into the secret, seeing it was a secret. They had it among themselves . One did not take it and another did not get it, like robbers ; but in the meantime we had to pay the money, and I would like to get it baok again. I would like to get it back with the return mentioned in the Good Book : " If anyone has done wrong, he shall retuiyi him fourfold." By the Chairman : Q. That would be a good profit ? A. It would be only right from a man who would do such a thing. That money was paid from the month of May until July. Here are the invoices. One here begins 21st of May, because we had laid in a con- SUGAa AND QROCKBIE8. 31 fliderable supply for what was wanted. The first invoice is small. Here is one in June for $2,235, granulated sugar, on which we paid one quarter of a cent per lb. more than tho*^e who signed the agreement. Here is another $2,215, and wo have not got that money back, and should very much like to get it. These bills were paid on until July. Here is another $1,808, and so on. We submitted to the loss ; said nothing ; felt a good deal. I feel that four times added would not be a bad idea, and I feel that in this British colony, a British subject of 50 years' standing should be so treated is a disgrace to the country and a disgrace to the Government to permit it. I consider the thing a conspiracy, without any hesitation, of the most nnlawful and outrageous character. However, these western gentlemen confined themselves to a visit to Montreal and joined with the refiners. They joined with the refiners ; do not forget this. In the end of June or the 6th of July this thing cul- minated. Seeing these recalcitrant folks, " these rebels against our dictation," they said : " We will put half a cent on refined sugars." I got the intimation. I was practically alone at that time; that is, other folks connected with our business were absent. I sent across the ocean. Up to that time our tariff was such that we did not deem it possible to import sugars that would suit for granulated. We kfiew that the good will of our neighbors had been damaged to carry out the designs of the refiners. We knew that; that instead of meeting the duty honorably we were compelled to pay duty to the refiners. The tariff ran to pay long prices in the United States, making importation from the United States a practical impossibility. We thereby incurred, I eay,the ill-will of our neighbors most decidedly by levying a tariff which largely meant them. There were other nations ; but other nations do not make this sugar. We did not know they were made in Great Britain, or Holland or France, or in any country. These granulated sugars we knew, and the trade knew, were practically to be found only in Canada and the United States, We were practically told : " You cannot get that from the United States, because our friends the refiners have a tariff in their favor," knowing that we bad got hold of the idea that sugars could not be got from other countries. I sent a telegram across the ocean that night. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Did they send you notice of J cent increase ? A. It was sent to me. We sent a notice across the ocean that night and the reply came next day offering for 500 or 1,000 packages and they sent samples. Q. From what part ? A. Liverpool. The answer came next day and the sub stance of it was offering us sagar at a price that made it strictly impossible with the high tariff, to import. . By Mr. Fisher: Q. Can you remember the price ? A. Something about sixteen and three penca Q, How much in cents ? A. It runs equivalent to about 6f cents duty paid. The answer came, however, and our folks had doubts that these sugars would pay us, so completely were we in the hands of the refiners. Then there were doubts that these sugars would answer the purpose. Q. At what price was the guild getting their sugars at that time ? A. The sugars then were about 6^ cents to the guild. They were raised up immediately. There was an arrangement made between the parties, and two screws began to be turned, and the next week an eighth went and shortly after anoui^ eighth went, and the screws were turned further until the destruction of the St. Lawrence refinery when the jump was distinct and from thence high prices have been maintained until about the month of January, until the drop began. I don't think there has been a drop during all this time until this. The substance of the communication jrom England was that we could get sugar ; still we had doubts and told them to send samples and the samples came. Then came the distinct importa- tion arising from these causes and these sugars took the place of our Canadian granulated sugars. They saw these facts, saw that we were not crushed and then they held the other meetings to which he refers in December and 6J per cent, on sugars was put, equivalent probably to 80 cents a barrel or $800 per 1,000 barrels. J. A. MATTHETfSON. On 10,000 barrels this would be $8,000 taken from those who refused to submit ta this iniquitous arrangement, thus abandoning their manliness and mercantile ideas to such an irresponsible and unlawful tribunal. In December this meeting referred to, was held with the result that Mr. Lightbound says, of adding 80 cents a barrel. From the first to the last, we have refused submission, and I made the remark when this thing was presented first, that this matter could only be submitted to as one yields to the highwayman with a pistol at his head and says : " Your money or your life." That is my view commercially, morally and financially of this combination. My view was that then and that is my opinion now. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. You know this arrangement still exists ? A. I know it exists, and it existed in 1886 when I refused to submit to the combination —this conspiracy, combination is hardly the term for it. I see there is a strong idea abroad that the refiners were not associated with this thing. The thing would not have lasted one hour if the refiners had had nothing to do with it. By the Chairman: Q. It originated with the grocers ? A. I cannot say much about the origination. I say it was a wrong on the start, that they should take upon themselves to conspire to be dictated to by an irresponsible committee of three as to what goods should be selected. I have nothing more to say about this except the amount of worry and inconvenience brought about by this outrage. If any British subject had been in the middle of Africa and had been treated in connection with a matter of this sort as we have been treated, it would have been crushed at once by a British fleet sent for the purpose. It is every man's right to manage his own business without these irresponsible tribunals. If a man cannot manage his own business it is time that he tried some other honest occupation. If they come to interfere with vested rights without knowing anything at all about it they have mistaken their calling. I would strongly suggest that these men try some other line of business. Our prices have been raised ever since the combination started and it is to the advantage of the refiners, and they have lowered the quality of the yellow refined sugar; the quality never was lower than it has been or was till the end of the year. We never had such a poor quality of sugar, and the retail grocers throughout the country will confirm the statement ; we never had such an extremely objectionable quality, and sticky. Q. To what do you attribute that stickiness ? A. Defective manufacture* Q. Glucose ? A. I cannot say. I am not in the secrets of the refiners. Here is a bill of 100 barrels and the weights run 279, 233, 276, 280 and so on, while the last is 290 pounds. Q. Is that granulated ? A. It is yellow and fine sugar. They raised the price and gave such bad qualities of sugar. Here is another lot of 109 barrels, running 230, 250 and 265 pounds. By Mr. Bain (Soulanges) : Q. What is the date? A. May 22nd. The average would run there from 260 to 270 pounds, and where this yellow and thin sugar is only delivered in July it will run 100 pounds beyond this average. By Mr . Fisher : Q. At what time? A. July. That gives the weights of these yellow sugars. It was a quality of yellow sugar such as I never saw before. When I referred to the facts of the complaints about sugar, I said we are here like the children of Israel in Egyptian bondage, when they were compelled to make bricks without straw. If your sugar runs through the stave, head up the barrel, and then it will be some time before it will run again. If it runs on the rolling side, and you haven't opened the barrels, roll them over, and if you roll them over the syrup will run through the barrel, and it will be all right for a while, until you get rid of it and the public take it. This is how the thing has been done, and as to the advantage to the refiners there has been a good deal said. I was before the Labor Commission the other day, and the point was asked how much the grocers get, and if 6 per cent, was too much. I did not see SUOAB AND GR0CBRIB8. 33 that 6 per cent, would be too much. How muah do the refioors get? This is the question ; one refiner told them it was not very large, but I say that refinery paid off the whole claim against it and made a most extraordinary dividend and left a large lot to the good. The Montreal refinery published the whole divider d of ten per cent. and five per cent covered a large sum not named. Part of that sum belongs to us yet, in connection with these sugars. It is open yet to bo refunded and a very large sum instead. That same investigation proposed to occapy the time examining grocers and find how they made such extreme profits lo-t some one might bring up this question of the profits of refiners. Undoubtedly this conspiracy, this arrange- ment had to do with throwing the men in the hands of the refiners to do just as they liked. Then the destruction of one of the refineries last summe:- made matters still worse, and the price never went down until the beginning of the year. Now, we have been able again within a few weeks to bring out these 6n2;a-8 again. Here are letters. They have gone back on last summer's price and the refiners here have lowered their prices, and here is correspondence, dated 2nd February, referring to the fugar. The letter of the 9th February contains matters of importance, and the 10th February refers to the quality of the sugar. Tnere is one lact I can explain and it might prove the process of the manufacture of the sugar. Twelve months ago the quantity of syraps the refiners had on hand was so great that they had to get outside storage, and in place of that to-day in Montreal you would have extreme difficulty in picking out twenty barrels in any place. Perhaps the refiners can say there is pome new process of manufacture, but still the fact is there that syrups were pleniiful and now syrups are very scarce, and sugars have been the weights I meniioned, the average approaching 350 pounds gross, against 25l> to 280 pounds within the last twelve months. I don't know about the barrels. It is possible that the barrels have changed, bat my impression is that they are ihe same barrels. As to granulated sugar a Montreal paper referred to it the other day. It is not fair to grumble about it, but this is simply to prove the one eided character of the position taken by those who have moved in this matter. I have been insulted right and left per- sonally in this paper. I refer to the defamation of character and slander, but I have not replied to it. I reply here, there is a lime for all things, and I say when that paper makes unjustifiable attacks on the private character of private persons in con- nection with this matter, perhaps some day somebody may take them up for it and call them to account. This article wont over a lot of products and refers to granu- lated sugar. I will say this : — You take the sugars we imported and the quality of the granulated sugars in Canada. The imported sugars were decidedly superior to the granulated sugar offered in the market from the refineries, which up to that time had not been of the highest quality. Of extra granulated, Radpath's is now the standard, so the public have gained that much from the outsiders if they have got a uniform standard of high class granulated sugar, and the paper which would be so dishonest as to make use of an article like that, in disputing the light of trading honestly, squarely and fairly, the parties concerned in the management should bo ashamed of themselves. By the Chairman : Q. We are not dealing with newspapers, we have nothing to do with that. If you will confine yourself to the sugar question and leave newspapers oat? A. I wish they would leave me out, that is all ; I want to be left alone. The sum and substance of the whole matter is this, I don't want to be a driven slave or a slave- driver. By Mr. Flynn : Q. Had you any of these sugars tested ? A. It was not necessary, bat I met a public analyst and he referred to the test of the granulated sugar from England as being sweet and very fine. He said, referring to the sugar, that it had one particu- lar property, being of an extremely pleasant flavor and of great sweetness, and he said this : that all sugars should be tested and analyzed. There is no trouble for the re- finers to do that. I think the same. I think if all sugars were tested and analyzed, something would be gained for the public. I think again ihat the inspection of re- <34 J. ▲. MATTHEWSON. fineries bo privileged by the Government which gives them so great protection would not be any thing out of order. It is quite right that they should be open t< the public for examination. I think distinctly that that should be done. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. I understand you to say that the fact of your importing a considerable quan- tity of sugar from England had been the cause of reducing the price of sugar withii the last few months ? A. I presume it has had this effect since Jiinuary. By the Chairman: Q. He says it has improved the quality ? A. I say my opinion is that th( qnalityof English sugars has put the refiners on their metal, and all the refiner have raised their standard. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Had there been much imported ? A. No, very little. I personally will stand asid and come to another meeting of the Committee if you wish to examine another part; summoned by you. I might mention to you confirming the connection between the refiners and the guild that an agent of one of the refineries met me on the stree within a few weeks and said : " \Vhy don't you get some of our yellow sugars," and h got me in and showed me a sample and made me an offer ; the next morning th< answer came: " You can get sugars at offer net cash." We did not take the sugai and we wrote the refinery concern to know what the meaning of that was, and th answer is : " We can only do it in harmony." Here is a telegram : — MoNOTON, Nkw Brunswick, 7th January. " You misunderstand terras. We of course draw at 20 days, but cannot give die count without consent of Guild. Yellow free on cars here 6^, granulated 7.32, n( discount. Hope to have your esteemed order." " MoNOTON Sugar Refinery." By Mr. Boyle : Q. Did you ever remonstrate with the refiners with regard to this matter ? A I went to see Mr, Drummond the day before the meeting at the Board of Trade, oi the 30th or 31st of January to ask him what was the real discrimination against u£ and why ; to which the answer was, to put it into a very condensed form, overwhelm ing with extreme politeness. ' Q. But he gave you an answer ? A. The answer was that if you take one barre of granulated you will have to take two of yellow, but I had an interview with thi president of the Grocers' Guild in Montreal— the Wholesale Grocers' Associatioi they call it — a few minutes before in presence of a witness. I asked him what wa the discrimination against outside parties, and he gave me his answer at once— h( was an honest and honorable man. The first discrimination was a quarter of a cen per pound on all refined sugars. What was the second ? On the 6th of July it wa madehalf a cent per pound. What is the present arrangement? One-eighth of i cent and no discount. By Mr. Guillet : Q. On all sugars ? A. Yea. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I wish to ask you another question, Mr. Matthewson. Did you make an; effort to have this agreement with the refiners removed ? A. I said to the refiners " This will be a rod in pickle for you and you will get it some day." By Mr. Fisher : Q. The refiners positively refused to sell except on these terms ? A. Yes. Thi Halifax refinery opened a few days ago, and I thought that being English stock holders they would have more liberal views. I sent down to Halifax and the answe c&me back last evening. " Please apply to C. & D. Osgood, our agent in your city. We applied to Mr. Osgood asking the price and knowing that be had offered u granulated sugar at seven cents, and the reply was : " The price of granulated suga SnOAB AND GROCERIES. 35 is ^^^, terms, net cash." I received this reply at 6.30 p. m. last evening. I believe candidly, gentlomen, that the whole matter is a conspiracy which these folks have been led into. Perhaps they did not intend to go so far bat they had to do it. If a man was to demand your money or year life he would be put under the restraint of the law in a very short hour, and those people are not a whit better. By Mr. Fish'ir : Q. I gather from what you said, Mr. Mitthewson, that one of the results has been that the yellow sugars have deteriorated in quality? A. They were never so wet. Q. And if it had not been for this combination or arrangement between the refiners and the guild the refiners would not have been able to make this deterior- ation in value? A. [f we had had any door open it would have been different. Now we have to either take it or leave it. Q. It is in consequence of this arrangement, to a large extent, that the refiners are aole to reduce the quality to a considerable extent ? A. I do not see why it fihoald, but the fact remains that it is so. The sugar is sent to us, and it may torn out bricks or mud, but we have to take it. Q. You have to take it ? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Is ihere no combination existing among the refiners? A. They are all in the same boat. Q. Have you any evidence of that ? A. They are all parties to the agreement. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You have to pay 7^ cents per pound and get no discount. Now if you had l)een a member of the guild you would have got it at ? A. At seven cents and 5^ per cent, discount in 14 days' time. By Mr. Landry : Q. What knowledge have you of that ? A, Positive information. Q. From whom? A. The quotation of last evening. It was supposed that this new refinery would not go into the combination. Mr. LiQHTBOUND. — Mr. Matthewson produced his telegram which says: "TJ- cents, net cash." The Committee adjourned. House of Cohhons, 13th March, 1888. The Special Committee on alleged Combinations met at 7 p.m. with Mr. N. C« "Wallace in the Chair, Georqe Alexander Drummond sworn. By Mr. Wallace : Q. Where do you live Mr. Drummond ? A. Montreal* Q. What is your occupation ? A. No occupation. Q. You are the President of the Canada Sugar Eefinery ? A. Yes, I am that. Q, Would you give us a history of this arrangement with the Grrocers' Guild so far as your company is concerned ? By Mr. Bain : Q. As a matter of fact you are in the sugar interest in Montreal ? A. I am § resident of the company, but that does not make me of any occupation, I am presi- ent of some other companies. By Mr. Guillet: - Q. The simple facts as far as you know them — what is the history? A. Well, the Grocers' Guild which included nearly all our customers appears to have beea formed, but of the circumstances under which it was formed I know nothing. They came to us last year. 3-3i 36 QEORGE ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. Q. The Dominion Guild came to you ? A- Well, I really don't know, I suppose it was. Q. Do you know the Secretary's name ? A. Wills, of Toronto. He is the secretary, but I kntw really little about the guild beyond what I saw in the paper. However, it embraced nearly all our customers, nearly all the wholesalcmen we were dealing with Irom the beginning of the Company. They represented to us that the business was beirg demoralized by the conduct of some wholesale dealers who sold BxxgbT at or below co&t. They proposed that if this condition of things was ruinous to the trade and no benefit to the consumer, that we should assist them in getting over it. They made the proposal to us that we should sell sugar to them cheaper by a quarter of a cent per pound than we did to others not belonging to the guild, and after due consideration and enquiry we decided that something must be done and agreed to do it. That really was the beginning ot the thing. By the Chairman : Q. Did they make any other representations to you besides what you have said? A.I cannot remember anything in particular. I don't remember; I accepted the general one that it was to remedy the state of things that was destroying the trade. Q. Did they say they would have to go out of the selling of sugar if such were not done ? A. They said that would be the ultimate effect of it I suppose. By Mr. Guillet : Q. That would throw upon you the selling of the sugar all through the Dom- inion? A. They said that would be the effect. Q. You would have to send your samples around with travellers and peddle sugar all over the country. That was an intimidation of course? A. It was not intimidation. It was prophecy more than anything else, that it should not be con- tinued as it was as this would be the effect, but it was nothing of the nature of a threat or intimidation. By the Chairman : Q. How long had they been making representations of that kind to you ? A. Several months I think. Q. Did you know that there was any greater demoralization in the sugar trade during these several months of cutting prices more than was then usually ? A. As a rule it was none of our business to make particular enquiry as to what sugar was sold for after we parted with it, but when the subject was all brought before us we certainly found that it was the practice of making sugar a sacrificed article. Q. Did you ever know it to be different in your experience ? A. Yes, I have, I don't know that I ever knew that that was the case in Canada before that time. Q. You say you never made any particular enquiry ? A. Never, no ; still I had the general impression, and I believe I am correct that it had grown to be the case more than ever before. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Was that due to the facility for getting sugar into the country ? A. No, I think it was the keen competition which had grown up from the number of whole- sale houses. By the Chairman : Q. tlad sugar at the time begun to rise in price — there has been considerable advance during this last year. Had sugar at that time begun to rise in price ? A. Sugar began to rise in price about mid-summer. Q. Not till then ? A. Well, it began to show symptoms of it. There were ramours that the beet crop was going to be short and it oscillated up and down until early summer, and then it took a very decided spurt, and that rise was due to the short crop of beet sugar on the continent of Europe. Q. Will yon tell us the further negotiations that took place between you and the guild ? A. Late in the year the guild stated that in spite of this difference that they still were suffering and requested us to make a difference (in one class of sugar alone all the time I may say) of half a cent a pound, that was on white sugars only. Q, Granulated ? A. Granulated principally, SUGAR AND GROCERIES. ST Q. Would yon go back a little? Would you tell us the whole arrangement that was made ; you have told us that your first bargain was to advauce the price a quarter of a cent. What else was included in the arrangement? A. There was nothing more that I know of. Oh, yes ; there was this Q Was there anything as to the quantities of sugar to be sold, granulated and yellow ? A. Oh, no ; there was no such arrangement. There was never any arrangement. There was a good deal of talk about it, but never to my understand- ing W518 there any arrangement of that kind. Q. No arrangement made that for every barrel of granulated they were to buy two barrels of yellow? A. No, not to my understanding. Q. No arrangement of that kind? A. No, not that I know of. By Mr. Guilkt : Q. Establishing a price ? A. There was some discussion. The meetings were «11 verbal, there waa nothing except a conference and there was some talk about that, but I never understood and never gave eflfect to any such proposal. Q. As a matter of fact you never demanded that outside the guild ? A. Xo^ never. By the Chairman : Q. Who do you sell granulated to now on the best terms? A, We sold it to the members of the Grocers' Guild. Q. Who furnishes you with a list of them ? A. The guild themselves. Q. You bind yourselves to sell only to those — this granulated at this price? A. We promised to do so and we actually do so. Q Is there any written contract? A. There is no written contract, thero never was. Q. It is a verbal agreement ? A. A verbal agreement, they made the proposal to us which we accepted. Q That you s'lould sell to them only at this price? A. To them only and they include I puppose more than 95 per cent, of all our customers. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you think it is a matter of much consequence to you whether the guild liad been got up at all ? A. Financially it is a matter of no consequence at all. Q. A matter of convenience ? A. It is not that, I thought it was a matter of ■consequence to me when I was convinced that our welfare was bound up in the wel- fare of our customers in a way. I did not speak of it as a matter of pounds, shil- lings and pence, wo were not a fraction better off. By the Chairman : Q. Who fixes the prices ? This is a price list of 2nd March. Is that the prices «t which you sold your sugars? (Exhibit 3.) A. 2nd March j I don't know. That is a fortnight ago. I cannot remember what the prices were on 2nd March ; they "were moving up and down. That is 14 days ago. ** Oar price to-day is" — ^I cannot say about that. That does not come from me at all. I knew nothing about it ex- cept this : that I may state that by the original agreement they agreed that tho advance they should make should be so much on the price, whatever we gave them. They stated to me what the advance was. The very reasonable character of that advance was an element in that original agreement. Q. What was the advance ? A. The advance was to be, so far as I remember, in Montreal a quarter of a cent on the granulated per pound and thr je-eighths of a cent on a certain quality. Now, of course, it is a fact that of what we sell, tho granulated forms only about one-third of the wholesales of sugar. It was equivalent to this : that the agreement, when they made an advance of a quarter of a cent upon every three pounds of sugar and for smaller quantities three-eighths of a cent on every three pounds of sugar, I figure it out to mean an advance of about 2 per cent, to thorn for rent and all expenses of running their establishment, including travellera* expenses and all risks ol business. Q. I don't quite understand you. You say a quarter of a cent. Was it over fifteen barrels? A. It was over fifteen barrels and three-eighths of a cent under oa. OEORGK ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. the granulated portion only of the sugar eales. It is a fact that in our eales of BUgar there are two barrels of yellow for one of white. Q. Why do you put the profits on granulated and yellow sugars ? A. Because as regards this agreement it is necessary to do so. Q. Did they combine themselves to sell yellow sugars at cost then ? A. They combine themselves to nothing of the kind. I did not enquire into that. What I have to deal with in this matter is rot how docs this agreement aflFect the business of these people. And I say it affects it in this way : that the agreement only permits them 10 have a minimum charge of a quarter of a cent on every three pounds of sugar. As ior what they charge on them I know nothing. Q. Thete grocers fell other sugars? A. 1 have nothing to do with that. Q. The profit on granulated has nothing to do with it at all ? A. The profit on granulated is how this agreement affects the general sugar business of the country, and it affects it to this amount, that for every three pounds of sugar they sell this agreement affects it to the extent of a quarter of a cent a pound. Q. For every one pound of granulated sugar it affects it to the extent of J or f- as the case may be ? A. The total affect of this agreement is a quarter of a cent a pound on every three pounds or f of a cert at the very outside. Q. You told us there was no outsiders buying anything but granulated ? A, Th«t they do buy it as a matter of fact, I sell it to them. Q. You said that the first agreement was a quarter of a cent in advance, and the next agreement was an advance of half a cert ? A. Yes, half a cent. Q. What after ihat ? A. You see you are mixing the two things. There are two questions involved. I am speaking tow of the matter as it affects the con- suir er, ard that has never been charged. Q. Never mind the consumer, state the facts ? A. I am stating the facts now. Q. You say the price was advarced a quarter of a cent ? A. Yes. Q. Then there was a further bargain made of half a cent ? A. Not at all. You. misunderstand the whole thing. I t-hall begin again from the last part of my evi- denoe. I say that I considered the question : In what respect did this affect the consumer ? Q. Just answer the question . The first arrangement was that they were to have not less than a quarter of a cent profit. You t-aid they came to you, and later on you agreed to change it to a half a cent. Is that correct ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You said the first arrangement with the guild was that you would charge an outsider, that is, a person not a member of the guild, one quarter of a cent a pound more than you charged members ? A. Yes. ' Q. Afterwards, they complained that that was not satisfactory, that did not protect them, and they demanded that it should be a half a cent ? A. Yes. Q. They made a further arrangement— did they not ? A. Oh, later, yes. Q. Now it stands ? A. One eighth of a cent all around and without the dis- count. That is the arrangement as it stands now. But there are two questions concern(d in this, and I want you to clearly understand the difference beiween the two. The question of what the Grocers' Guild were to charge the public is one question, and the question what I am to charge those who are in the guild is another qnestion altogether, and you must separate the two. Q. Do I understand you made an arrangement with them as to what they would charge the public ? A. Yes ; that was the first arrangement. Q. The minimum price they should charge ? A. Yes, Q. They could charge as much as they liked? A. Yes; By Mr. Fisher: Q. Was that an agreement with you or an agreement amo. f»t themselves ? A. The proposal was made and of the reasonableness of this egrecmjBt I had to be satis- fied before I went into it at all. Q. They are bound to the refiners to charge that advance on ail the sugar they tKAd ? A. They are bound, yes. SUGAR ANf> GROCERIES. 39 Q. To the refiners as well as to themselves ? A. They are boand not to charge more than that. Q. They are boand to the refiners not to charge more than that ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. You eaid it was the minimum advance ? A. On white sugars. We had no arrangement whatever with them upon yellow sugars. They are not affected by the agreement at all . Q. Not to sell at any price ? A. No. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do 1 urderstand yon ? You bound them to charge an advance of a quarter of a cent per pound on white sugars ? I understood you just now to say that that was to be the extreme advance. I understood you to say it was the outside advance. I want to know whether it is the outside advance ? A. 1 understood it to be the fixed advance they are entitled to charge. Q. Are all the wholesale men obliged to charge the same advance ? A. Yea. Q. They bind themselves to the refiners to do that ? A. It was a distinct element in ihe conference, no one combining. Q. The conference would fall to the ground were that not carried out ? A. If they did not carry that out I consider that the whole thing would fall to the ground, if they charged more than that advance. Q. Or lefs either ? A. Or less either, as far as I am concerned. That is a matter with which they have to do. Q. I want to know whether this is an underotanding smongst themselves, or a question between you and them ? A. If they charged more i should have the right to complain. By the Chairman : Q. That is on yellow sugars ? A. On white sugars. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. There is no arrangement about yellows ? A. No; that only applies to white. By the Chairman : Q. He has told ue there was an arrangement about yellows? A. No, sir, I have said nothing of the kind. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I understood you to say you sell about two barrels of yellow to one of white ? A, We do. Q, Not necessarily to wholesalers ? There is no binding agreement as to the quantities they may purchase? A. No. Q. 1 understand that those who are not in the guild, who are not members of the wholopale guild, when they buy a barrel of white from jou mutst buy two barrels of yellow? A. It is not so. I have answered the question before. I never so imdpr-tood it. Mr. Fisher. — I was not in the room when you answered it if you answered it. My entimate of the effect of this agreement as regards the ultimate buyer, the retail grocer, is that it is an advance of two per cent, or somethirg under it — two per cent, as a maximum. By Mr. Fisher : Q. On the whole transaction ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. How much on the granulated ? A. Well, it would be on the granulated alone something under four per cent. The mimimum would be about l^ per cent. on the three classes altogether. So far as the sugar agreement, as I uiiderstand it, is concerned, it means that it affects the price to the consumer to the extent of 1|^ or 2 per cent, only, which is the only recompense that these men have for conducting their business. Q. Do you know what profits they make on the yellow sugars ? A. I do not know anything. 40 GEOROB ALEXANDXB DBUMMONB. Q. How can you swear that ? A I swear that as far as the sugar agreement is concerned that is all the effect of it. Q. You say that there is no agreement on yellow sugars ? A. The sugar agree* ment is not effected upon that portion of the business at all. Q. It is left out ? A. The agreement is not effected upon that portion of the business. Q. Do you sell to those outside of this list '(Exhibit I) yellow sugars on the same terms as to those on the list. The yellow sugars 1 mean ? A. I could not tell. I have seen something similar to this list, but I do not know that I ever read it ; I have no doubt that it is. Q. You sell to those outside of this list the yellow sugars on the same terms aa you do to those on the list ? A. We did at first. Q. Do you DOW? A. No. I have already answered that the advance is one- eighth of a cent all round. Q. On the yellow sugars ? A. No ; on the yellow and white together. Q. One-eighth of a cent all round ? A. Yes ; all round. By Mr. Guillet : Q. And no discount allowed besides ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Do I understand you to say that the one-eighth of a cent all round and the one and a-half per cent, together only give a difference of a little less than two per <5ent. ? A. No; I did not. I think you cannot separate in your mind that there are two features in this transaction — the relation of the Grocers' Gruild to the public, and the relation of the Grocers' Guild to their competitors in business. You must separate them ; they are entirely different. By Mr. Bain ( WentioortK) : Q. Is it not necessary, in connection with your arrangement with the Whole- Bale Guild, that you should see that they should carry out their part of the trans- action ? A.I should consider it an essential part of the agreement . Q. Do you take any steps ? A.I can fiad out very easily. Q. But, as a matter of fact, you do not take any steps? A. Not very active Bteps, but I am positive I would know on very short notice. By Mr. Fisher : Q. But you never have known of any instance ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. What i8 the arrangement existing to-day in regard to this? A. The ar- rangement to-day is that those outside of the guild have to pay ^o. more, and they have to pay within 14 days, net cash. Those in the guild are allowed 2^ per cent. Q. That is the discount you allow — 2^ per cent? A. Yes, 2^ por cent. Q. And then what is the arrangement for their selling ? A . For who ? Q. You have made arrangements for their selling? A, The arrangement remains as it originally stood. Q. That they are to have ? A. That they are to be charged what I made out to you something under 2 per cent.; 1^ to 2 per cent. Q. What is it? A. As far as 1 remember I stated it twice. For all quantities under 16 barrels f o. per lb. advance on the white portion only and Jo. per lb. on all quantities above 15 barrels. Q. You are not to charge any less than that advance or any more ? A. We are not to charge any less or any more. Q. Simply to sell at those figures? A. That is my understanding of the agree- ment. Q. For the granulated alone or for all that they purchase ? A. It nominally stands on the granulated and means the whole thing. Q. Suppose that sugars went up half a cent per lb., would they bo bound months afterwards to fseil these sugars? A. As I understand it, the agreement is made from week to week. They come in every week to ask our prices. SUGAB AND OBOCXRI£S. 41 By Mr. Fisher : Q. These prices then are given by the refiners to the wholesalers ? A.. Yes. Q. And they just sell at the agreed upon advance ? A. Yes, that is my ander- standing of it. Q. And this is issued once a week ? A. I understand so. Q Do the refiners have arrangements between them as to the fixing of the price? A. No, I understand they quote from the refiners. By the Chairman : Q. On your notification of prices from week to week, this list here, that only affects the white sugars ? A. Yes. Q. Then a man may charge as much or as little as he likes on the others ? A. He may ; I have no check over them in any way. Q. And this f cent and J cent practically only refers to the white sugars ? A, We do not control their business as regards the yellow sugars, but this agreement affects the sugar business in that way and no more. Q. It affects the white augari ? A. The white and yellow together. I woold like to make it clearer by saying this, that if there were no sugar agreement they could charge what they liked, more or less; but this sugar agreenaeot affecta the whole, § cent and no more. By Mr. Wood : Q. That is the average for the whole ? A. We average it for the whole. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of tact there is no control over their sellinsr price in yellow sugars. The agreement is not such that you could control them ? A. Not a bit. They had that before the agreement, and they will have it after the agreement is ended. I am looking simply at the efiect of that agreement. Q. Then the agreement only affects the white bugars? A. As far as I am con- cerned it affects the whole thing. Q. I wish to ask you another matter. Have you any arrangement with the other sngar refiners as to prices? A. No. Q. Where do they get these published prices? A. I presume they enquire of the other refiners. Q. This istheselling price. Itsays: — " 2nd March (Exhibits) extra gran ulated, 15 barrels and over, one sale, 7f 3. ; under 15 barrels, 7^c." Was that the information that you furnished to them ? A. Very likely, but I know nothing about that. Q. Still they make a list here saying that these granulated sngai-aare to ba sold at a certain price. Do you know to whom they refer besides yoa? A. To the other manufacturers of sugars I presume. As a matter of fact the other refiners, I think, follow our prices, i dare say they do, but they are at peiioct liberty to do anything they like. Q. Do you make any arrangement with them ? A. No ; but they often ask our prices, and we always give ihom, but as far as I am concerned, and as far as the guild is concerned, this information is given by me for myself alone. Q. You had no arrangements with any other sugar refiner about what prices you should charge ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Wentioorth). Q. Did the guild not make this arrangement with you, or they indicated to you that they would establish your rates as the regulation price ? A. No, I am not aware that that was mentioned. Q. Then the practical result is that the prices you quote regulate the prioes of the sugars to the guild all round ? A. They may do. We have frequent enqoiries as to prices and we make no secret about them. Q. it is a matter of business only ? A. Simply a matter of business. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That they shall sell your sugars at this stated advance ? A. As far as I am. concerned by this agreement. 43 GXOBaK ALEXANDER DRX7MM0ND. Q. SupposiDg you sold a wholesale hou^e in Montreal 100 barrels of sugar, and yon found out afterwards that they were selling sugars at a different rate from what the advance would be, you have no means of knowing whether they bought it from jou or from some one else ? A. 1 would pretty soon find out, I think. Q. If you were at liberty to sell sugar to them at a certain price, and the St. Ijtwrence, Moncton and other refineries sold at a different rate,, the wholesale grocer could sell these different sugars at a different advance, and might be selling a lot of sugars at the different advance? A. That is quite conceivable. Q. And it would be rather difficult for you to know ? A. It might be so. Q. Do you know of any such cases ? A. No. Q. Naturally you expect it to be the same price as yours ? A. We change our prices whenever we like. We might give that information on the day of the week on which they afck it, and then change it the next morning. Q. But you say it is fixed once a week ? A. Yes. Q. You would not bind yourself next morning at the different advance ? A. They consider this point among themselves, but if the prices went up they would sot have much margin, and if down a little more. Q. You notify them ? A. We undertake to notify them once a week. Q. Once a week? A. Yes. Q. Well then between these periods, weekly dates, you do not call upon them to change their prices? A. No, we do not call upon them to change their prices. Q. And you are not aware of any occasion having occurred when the same grocers would be eellirg the same sugar at different prices ? A. No. Q. Consequently you would naturally infer that all the sugars sold by these grocers would be at the same price ? A. It might be so. Q- You know of no others ? A. If a man bought at better terms, he would pro- liably have the advantage of them. Q. Aie you aware that the guild have any agreement among themselves that they will not do that ? A. No, I am not aware of any agreement. By Mr. Guillet : Q. How often do they change their prices? A. Once a week. Q. And then they are bound to change according to the fluctuations that take place in the prices at the refinery ? A. Yes. Q. Up or down. Do they send you their list ? A. No. Q. When did you come to that arrangement as to the prices that they should establish? A. It was the very first thing that was talked of. By the Chairman : Q. You said you did not know anything about this list, that you have nothing to do with it ? A. Except in that way. Q. Yon advertise the sale of certain sugars at "Zf cents. If you have nothing to do with it how could they fix the price ? A. I have nothing to do with it. I never saw this list more than twice during the whole year. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. It comes from your establishment? A. No. By the Chairman ; Q. If ihey break this agreement you will take knowledge of it ? A. Certainly I would. Q. This is an acknowledgment that there is some agreement ? You say you do not know anything about this? A; The first proposal came with a request that ** if we agree that we shall not charge more than a certain price will you do so and 80." That was the making up of the bargain at first. As to the issuing of this list I do not know anything about it, but if a case came to my knowledge that they had transgressed I woo Id take steps to stop it. By Mr. Wood : Q. Are there any penalties attached to a violation of this agreement ? A. I Imowof none. SUQAK AND OROOERIES. 43^ Q. Is it a written agreement or is it a mere verbal arrangement ? A . There is no written agreement at all. The agreement between myeelt and the guild is nomi- nally verbal . By Mr. Guillet : Q. You pay that their average profit on granulated sugar is 2 per eent. ? A, No. I say the profit they speak of, a quarter of a cent per lb. on large transactions- on all elapses of sugar including granulated, amounts to nearly 2 per cent. Q. That is a small profit ? A. Yes. Q. If they came to you and stated that that was too reasonable an arrangement and at the same time ask you to allow them to make a profit of 2 per cent, more, would you not be prepared to consider it ? A. I do not know. Q. Yon would be at liberty to deal as you thought right ? A. No, there is a limitation. I consider that they cannot do their business on anything less than the advance I speak of. By the Chairman : Q. Bid they been cariyicg en the business previous to that? A. Yes that was the origin of the whole thing. Frequently I have known them to sell granulated sugar at what I knew to be a half a cent below our cost price, provided it was bought with tea. I look u^on that as a huge swindle. By Mr. Guillet : Q. By which their profits would be considerably advanced ? A. You should not ask me a hypothetical question like that. Q. A deduction from what you say? A. A deduction without putting me ta the trouble of making it. By Mr. Fisher : Q. As yen know the gentlemen in the guild, if a wholesaler was to sell at other than the advance you place upon the sugar you would look uponthat as a breach of faith between you and him, and you could cut him out of the guild list ? A. Ko, I liave nothitg to do with the guild list. I have nothing to do with its management and am not cognisant of the guild list at all. By the Chairman : Q. No cognizarce? A. No, except in the manner that I have explained. Bi/ Mr Fisher : Q. I do not fuppoee that you do take cognizance. If agentleaan broke the agreement between you and the guild you would not feel at liberty to deal with him as il he was still in ihe guild ? A. No I would not put it in that way. I would dear with the guild as an organized body and not as irdividuals. By Mr. Fsher ; Q. Therefore, do I understand that you take the list which the guild gives you and you only sell to these people? A. Yes. Q. Then you don't superintend or have anything to do with the manner in wihich that schedule is made up when it goes into the wholesalei's hands ? A. Ex- cept that 1 have the right of an explanation. If I found that, under any oircum- eitances, it vas tiansgressed — the understanding which exists was transgressed — I should bring it to the notice of the guild. Q. And the next time that that gentleman, whose name had been struck oflF^ aeked you ior sugtr what would you dc ? A.I would expect the guild to deal with Mb case. I should deal with the guild as a whole ; I could not deal with individuals. Q. You deal with the guild as a whole ? A. Yes. Q. You sell to the guild at a certain rate as a whole and you don't deal with an individual at all ? A. Never. Q. Then your agreement, as regards the sale of sugar, is as between you as a xefiner and the guild of wholesale merchants as a whole ? A, Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Are the guild responsible to you for the payment of individual accounts? A. 1^0, there is i othirg of that sort at all. We have to take our risk with indivi- dual accounts. 44 GSORaX ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. Q. Yoa take the list of persons you are to sell to from this printed list. This iajyour printed list ? (Exhibit 1.) A. Yes. Q. This is what they furnish you for your guidance? A. If I did not believd in the solvrency of a firm I say I would refuse to sell them, guild or no guild. By Mr. Quillet : ' Q. That has nothing to do with that business at all ? A. Not a bit. If I was in business and I found one of my customers selling my goods and making a sacrifice article of them, selling them below cost, I would refuse to sell to him on any termai By Mr. Fisher : Q. That is a matter of your own business ? A. That is the principle on which I go. I maintain that he is not a safe man. I don't consider myself bound at all to «eU to all these names. Q. You do consider yourself hound not to sell to anyone else except these names? A. Except on these terms. By Mr. Bain ; Q. I suppose as a matter of fact your business is limited outside of the guild. A. I think most of them never dealt with me at all. By Mr. Quillet : Q. There are a number of names scored off that list. Why were they scored off? J>o you know Mr. Drummond ? A. Well, I scarcely know. Q. I have been informed by gentlemen who were here giving evidence before that they were scored off because they were dealing retail as well as wholesale? A. Possibly. That is a matter for the guild — not for me at all. I had nothing to do •with that — the original formation of the list or the amendments to it. Q. As a matter of fact if the list was reduced one-half, it would make no differ- ence to you as long as they draw up a list. If the names were cut off therefore you would cease to supply them ? By the Chairman : Q. You sell under their direction? A. You cannot put words into my mouth. X am answering reasonable questions. By Mr. Quillet : Q. As you don't know upon what terms they ormad their a830ciation, who they shall receive or who they shall exclude, if you found that list very much diminished and a large number of the names scored off you would not enquire ? A. I said to you at the beginning that the first thing that was presented to me, as accompanying the request, was a list of gentlmen who had formed themselves into this guild, which comprised I think about 96 per cent, of all our customers, and I thought that it was «n important factor in making the agreement and thought I was at liberty to do it. Q. You did not include in your list any that were not your customers at the time but that those on the list wore all your customers ? A. Nearly all men who bought from us. Q. I understood that those who were not on the list at the time ware excluded if they were retail dealers? A. Tha' I am not very certain about; I think that was the rule laid down, but I am not very certain. We did not supply the names of any one to those in the guild. Q. Was it not understood you would not allow any others to be put on except those on the list— you would not sell to any others ? A. Yes, that is clear enough. Q. When these names were struck off, you did not enquire why they were fltruck off ? A. No, I did not. Q. For the 6ame reason if half of the names were struck out you would not prob- ably enquire? A. It would depend upon circumstances. If there was a large eUmination I would have to look into it. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. If they struck off a good old customer you had done business with for so many years ? A. 1 would like to know the reason why. By Mr. Quillet: Q. These were good customers ; Mr. Baskerville was a large customer? A* Yes; I believe he was. SUOAR AND QROCERIKS. 45 Q. Did you not enquire why he was cut off? A. As a matter of fact I did noti By Mr. Fisher : Q. You did not allow names to b.) added to that list ; that was your agreement T A. I did not exercise any such supervision. Q. The guild had perfect libert7 to add or take away from that list without reference to you ? A. Within reason. Q. So, within reason, the guild controls your business? A. Well, I don't know ; I would not like exactly to say that. Q. You say you allow the guild, within reason (that is a large qualification, but still within reason), to say who you shall sell to and who you shall not sell to, on certain terms. Is that not the understanding? A. With my consent. Q. Then I understand that the list is practically under your control, as without your consent a man cannot be struck off, and without your consent a man cannot bo^ added ? A.I beg your pardon ; I distinctly disclaim that. They might add a dozen names wiihout asking my opinion at all. Q. Well, then, they don't control that you should sell to certain men or not ? A. To a limited extent they don't, Q. Then they control your business to that extent — within reason, as you say ? By the Chairman : Q. Have you sold to any of these men whose names are struck off, after you were given notice that their names were struck off ? A. Well, I have not. I don't knew of any of them. There are some I never sold to before either. Q. You are not the only sugar refiner. These men are customers of all the sugar refineries ? A. Very likely. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. I understand you to say that the guild controls that list but at the same time ? A. It is the lif-t of the guild. Q. Exactly, it is the list of the guild, but at the same time you exercise thi» supervision over it that the changes must be within reason as you call it ? A. Well, if they were very marked I would ask the reason why. Q. You would consider yourself at liberty to break the agreement? A. I con« aider myself at liberty to break the agreement at any time without reason. It ia perfectly voluntary. Q. It is an agreement as long as you are satisfied with the list? A. As long as I am satisfied that the thing is being, as I believe it is, honestly and fairly conducted, Q. Fairly and honestly as between jou and the guild? A. Acd the public. Q. Well, the public, according to you, have no say in the matter whatever. Their interests are simply affected as to the advance which you and the guild egree upon, that the sugar must be sold at. The public have no control over the agree- ment in any way whatever. The agreement is not an agreement between the guild and you and the public, it is an agreement between you and the guild which affects the public. Is that not so ? A. Well, that is a very long question. Q. Has the public any control over the agreement ? A. Well, you covered that. Q. I understand that the public have no control over the agreement? A. Well Q. Do you say that they have ? A.I don't know ; we will see. Q. I want you to antwer that question ; I put the question ; I would like an answer? A. I don't think a gentleman should atk a question like that ; it is wast- ing time. Q. A few minutes ago I asked yon about the control over that list, acd it is an agreement between you and the guild, and you say affected not only you and the guild, but the public, and that leads up to the question whether the public have any control over that agreement ? A. That is not the question. It is its effect upon the public I have to take into consideration, and I maintain, and they maintain, that the public cannot get the eervice of distribution on any cheaper terms. That is the full eztent to which the public are interested. 46 GEORGE ALEXANDER DRUUMGND. Q. You don't consider that the public have anything in it except yoa consider this agreement is in the interest of the public ? A. Yes. By Mr. Ghiillet : Q. If you had good reason to believe that the public disapproved of such aa arrangement as that, you would then relinq[uish that? A. The public would have their own remedy. By the Chairman : "^ Q. You said that you saw granulated sugar selling at cost and under cost in Montreal, and that it was preposterous. Was the public getting the benefit of that ? A. I would just like you to allow me to argue that point. I will answer your ques- tion. I said that I saw in a shop window in Montreal a placard stating that sugar was to be had here at a price one-half a cent a pound below what they could buy it for, provided it was bought with tea. Now, I say that as far as the public is con- cerned that it is unfair and deceptive, and that the public, if they get a half a cent a pound on sugar, they pay four or five cents a pound more for the tea. Q. You don't know it as a matter of fact? A. I know it aa a matter of fact, that that is the only way a man can live. It is not to be supposed that a man caa Jive and can keep the establishment open and do business for nothing. Q. You say tne wholesale grocers have been doing that. Have they been living dishonestly? A. I believe so, I think so. Q. They all had to do it ? A. I think it was dishonest, they nlight better have charged a fair reasonable living advance on any article, than nothing on some and too much on others. That is the ruin of all business. Q. The wholesale grocery business, particularly, ha«i been most profitable in all particulars, in this country. There are fewer failures than in any other line of business ? A. I cannot tell you that, I have no reason to know that. By Mr. Fisher: , "-. • Q. You said the public had their own remedy if this agreement was not to their taste. Would yoa give me your impression as to what that remedy is ? A. Well, I think that is entirely out of my region. Q. You said: "They have their own remedy?" A. I might have my opinion on that point. I certainly cannot possibly answer a question of that kind. ACjr opinion would be worth nothing. By Mr. Guillet: A. You said, you believed that the sugar trade was becoming demoralized and that this was a recent development which did not exist formerly. Can you account for the reason why it did not exist formerly? A. It was the outooraa of excessive competition, I think. Q. My own opinion was — perhaps you can state whether it was a fair one — that the various grades of sugar imported into Canada before we had sugars refined upon a uniform standard, was so much under actual value and the appearance was such that the public were very readily deceived as to the value of the sugar, and competi* tion was so keen, inasmuch as they ware able to say that the value was better although the sugar w&i a little higher. When sugar came to be established by a standard there was not that advantage? A. I think that is right. Q. There was then the facility for selling sugars at one uniform grade ? A. I think you are quite right By the Chairman: Q. About the quality of the sugar, how do you account for a barrel of sugar weighing so much more than it did some time ago ? A. Tnore is more put into it. Q. That would account for it that one way, but a barrel of the same size and with a greater weight of sugar ; how do you account for that ? A. Simply the same reason — better put in and better packed. I know what you are after now. This i» Matthewson's assertion that the sugar is made badly. I tell you he is entirely mistaken that the sugar made by us (I don't speak about that of anybody else — I have no reason to doubt the same for them) is just as good as ever it was in the world andnQ» i)etter sugar is made anywhere. SUGAB AND OBOCSRIIS. Q. How do you account for it being 80 maoh more difficult to handle? A. I don't admit that that is a fact. Q. Then you don't know much about it? A. I think I know all about my own sugar. Q. I have had experience in the thing. It is twioe as difficult to handle. A. It is harder packed in the barrels to save packages. That is pretty much the only reason of that complaint. Q. Is it from the fact of there being glucose in it ? A. It is not from that fact at all, because there is no more glucose in it. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is it a fact that syrups are not so plentiful ? A. Yes, that is a fact. Q. Why is it ? A. Simply because they are not produced. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is there any glucose in your sugar ? A. There is glucose in every sugar made that exists in the world. By the Chairman : Q. You say that sugars that are made now are as pure sugars as were made three or four years ago ? A. I do ; I say they are quite as good and sometimes a shade better. Q. Yellow sugars? A. Yellows, whites, and everything. We never mado better sugars than we made this year. (Exhib't 27.) Q. Where do you get the raw material ? A. From all parts of the universe. Q. That is very indefinite. A. Wo get sugar from Europe, we get sugar from China, Manilla, Brazil, Cuba, and from several parts of the British Empire and West Indies. At the present moment I think I have European sugar and Phillipina Island sugar. Q. European sugars — that is beet root sugar ? A. Yes, we have it from Gaba, Brazil, India, I think that is about all. Q What proportion of beet root sugar do you have ? A. We use a small jwo- portion ; it rather improves sugar to use a little of it. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. It grades just as high as cane sugar, as a matter of fact ? A. The faet is, it is the most expensive sugar there is. Q. As a matter of fact, as far as quality goes ? A. It is pretty much the same. Q. It has been very largely produced of late years — has it not ? A. It forma one-half, nearly, of all the sugar crop of the world. About 2,500.000 tons of it are produced annually, and those of all other kinds of sugar put together are just about the same. Q. I suppose it has entered very largely into all the sugars refined of late years? A. Ot late years it has entered much more largely in sugars produced in Europe than sugars further from it. To ud, at the door of the West Indies, here, it is to otir interest to use a smaller proportion of it. Q. As a matter of fact our West India sugar trade, judging from the trade returns, is not very large ? A. I haven't looked at them for sometime back, bat a very large proportion of our sugar comes from there. Q. In fact I was very much surprised to see so small a proportion of the West India sugar furnished for actual consumption in Canada? A. The total orop of Ouba, the largest one in the world, is 600,000 tons or thereabouts. It is only one- fourth of the beet root sugar crop of Europe. Q. Then I suppose the lowering of prices has tended to reduce the production f A. Not much, I think. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Do you get more oane sugar from the West Indies than beet root sugar from Europe ? A. A great deal, The Deet root sugar which we use this year, I cannot say how much exactly it would be, but I do not think it can be more than one-eighth, or one-tenth of what we use. I am only, however, guessing. 48 GEORaX ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. Q. Most of yoar cane sugar oomes from the West Indies ? At East Indies as well. Q. Do you get more from the East Indies than the West ? A. I do not know, it is all beet root sugar that comes from Europe. We get a great deal of cane sugar from Brazil and Cuba, and a great deal from the East Indies. By the Chairman : Q. From what you have stated there is no arrangement with any other refiner of sugar about prices ? A. I tell you whenever they ask our prices we tell them« Very freqaeitly on the eve of the day we telegraph saying our price is so and so. Q. Do you come to a mutual arrangement ? A. No. Q. No arrangement ? A. No. Q. Your whole arrangement is with the guild ? A. Yes ; and not with the other refiners, and the prices that we would quote to our brother refiners would simply be the pricos of our white sugar ; and that we would tell them directly or through their agents, or to anybody that would come into our oflSce. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Practically the price of yellow sugar is fixed by the white? A. It has no direct connection. Q. If white is selling at a certain price, would not that affect the price of yellows ; that is, raise or lower it, as the case may by ? A. It would influence it sooner or later. Q. In your own sales do you not keep generally about the same proportion in the prices of yellows and white ? A. No ; they do not ; but they still hang one to the other more or less. Q. Can you tell me about what proportion of the sugar that has been made in Canada durii)g the last six months or so, you havo made, that is to say, the relative output of your factory ? A. I do not know, for I do not know what has been pro- duced in Canada ? Q. You know the St. Lawrence refinery has been closed ? A. I think about two-thirds, probably fifty per cent, of all. Q. Practically your prices then would almost control the whole market ? A. I do not know. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Has the cost been increased to the wholesalers by this combine ? A. Not at all. Q. Does it not give you an opportunity of raising the price. That is, greater &cility for raising the prices ? A. I do not think so. Q. I mean in reference to the fact that your prices regulate the prices of other refineries your prices have governed ? A. They have not governed the prices of other refineries. Q. I think you said something to that effect ? A. I said probably they would iall in with our prices, for white sugars only, but not for yellows. The fact is, we have no control over them in any way in that respect. I think they generally undersell us. Q. Your sugar being better ? A. No ; not at all. Q. In reference to glucose I want to make an inquiry. There is an impression that glucose is hurtful, as if it were not a wholesome article of food ? A. That is my impression. Q. In what way do you account for the use of glucose ? A. We do not use it. The glucose I speak of is a natural product. It is an intrinsic part of sugar and is a natural product. It is not, however, the glucose made from corn starch. By Mr. Fisher : Q. It 18 not put into the sugar ? A. No. Q. Do you take any means of taking it out ? A. It is the syrup that we do take out. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There is sometimes more taken out than others ? A. No, not at all. Q. But if there were not as much taken out it w ould affect the sugar ? A. It would not be sugar ; it would be like porridge. It r emains in it to a certain extent^ bat no more. SUGAR AND GROCERIBF. 4^ By Mr: Fisher : Q. Is there not a difiFerenco in the amount of moisture in the various grades of yellows ? A. Very little, hardly any. Q. And consequently there is very little diflferenoe in the amount of syrup left in ? A. No, very little. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is it not a fact that sugars now on the market are more clammy and more heavy — not so free grained ? A. Do you say that as a fact ? Q. It is a fact. It is the experience of those of us in the retail business A. During last summer there was a great demand for cheap sugais to eell at so much per pound, and to satisfy that demand a lower grade of sugar was made and sold at a cheaper rate. This we would not like to do as a rule Q. Did that contain glucose ? A. Every sugar contains giucase. Q. Did that not contain more glucose ? A. It might have contained more on that account, because that is the reason it was cheaper. It was sugar which pro- bably, if we had had our own way we would not have sold at all, but which the trade really demanded. By the Chairman : Q. Y^ou have not accounted for the clamminess or stickiness. A. We did not make it clammy because we wanted to; but because we could not help it. If you try to make a sugar too low m quality, lower than we desire, a3 a rule, it will be unavoidably more or less clammy Q. All the yellows had the same appearance ? A. I deny that. Q. Except the finer grades, and these were to soma extent ? A. I deny that, and I say it is not the case. By Mr. Guillet : Q. In speaking of yellow sugars being clammy Mr. Wallace means yellows dis- tinctively ? A. I give that a positive denial. Tim Chairman — You need not. By Mr. Wood (^Westmoreland) : Q. There are one or two questions that I was not quite clear upon ; I was not in at the first of the examination. If 1 understood Mr. Drummond aright the increased cost to the consumer is two per cent. Is that to the consumer by this arrangement. A. Under this arrangement, that is the cost by this arrangement. Q. Averaged over the whole output of the refiners ? A. Remember I say in- crease if you go upon the basis of the intermedial wholesale houses doing business for nothing. Q. For nothing? A. Yes; they would be then all losing money. There has been no increase to the consumer that I know of under this arrangement. Q. What does this two per cent, represent ? A. If they were doing businesa for nothing, which they represented to me they were doing, then this agreement gave them a bare living margin to do their business on. Q. Do I understand then that this two per cent, profit is the profit which thi» arrangement secures to the guild of wholesale grocers ? A. Yes, under that agreement. Q. Averaged over the whole output of sugar ? A. Yes. Q. Is that clear profit ? A. No, it is not clear profit. It is the only margin they have to cover the expenses of doing their business. Q. What expenses ? A. They tell me office rent, insurance, cartage Q. Of course everybody has to pay their office rent ? A. I do not follow you. Q. Where does the freight come in ? A. The nominal amount in the agreement was three-eighths and one-half cent, but out of that they had to pay the freight. Q. This two per cent, is the net ? A. Yes. Q . I think you stated that this arrangement was the outcome of the competition among wholesale grocers ? A. So I understood. By Mr. Guillet; Q . By which they were selling sugar at a loss ; that was the state of things whioh existed ? A. So I understood . 3—4 60 OKOROB ALEXANDER DBUMMOND. Q. Mr. Matthew^on stated to us as well as Mr. Lightbound, that the average profit which they made now on sugar was between 5 and 6 per cent. ? A. That who made ? Q. That the wholesale dealers made on sugar at these rates that were agreed upon ? Ai I ihink you are wrong in your calculation. Mr. Wood (^Westmoreland) — He spoke of all grades and said that the average profit made was 6 per cent. The Chairman— Under 15 barrels of granulated, three-eighths of a cent, and 15 barrels and over, a quarter of a cent. Three-eighths of a cent would be a profit of about 5^ per cent. JBy Mr. Guiilet : Q. There ia no means of regulating the prices of yellows ? A. I would like to make it very clear that [ have expressed no opinion as to the actual profit they do make. What I wanted to put clearly was that whatever profit they made before 1 did not know but that this agreement did not affect it to the extent of more than 2 per cent. By the Chairman : Q. Then on the granulated that the agreement covers, how much is the profit ? A. 3f to 4 per cent. By Mr. Wood : Q. That corresjjonds with Mr. Lightbound's statements ? A. 5 per cent, taking off the freight. By the Chairman : Q. The freight in allowed to Toronto, because they are allowed to charge one eighth of a cent more in Toronto than in Montreal, and that one-eighth of a cent pays the full freight and perhaps a little more. At any rate it pays the full freight ? A. Well then it still leaves it just where I said. Q. At f of a cent profit which is the largest amount sold by the wholesaler to the retailers it leaves 5^ per cent on the granulated, and you have no agreement plying them ? A. I would rather not say anything about that. Q. But you have sold them sugars ? A. Oh, yes, we have sold them sugars. Q. Even recently at the advanced price ? A. I do not know that we have sold them for some time past. I would rather not say anything of my appreciation of Mr. J. A. Matthewson. Q. He produced an invoice of yours showing that you had sold him sngara at jQie advanced price ? A. Quite likely. 3— 4i 62 GKOBO^B ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. Q. Tou do not know it as a fact? A. No. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland); Q. Did the refiners make large profits last year ? A. That is a question whiob is a good doal spoken about. In addition to being refiners of sugars we are enor- mous dealers, and we have occasionally made large profits in dealing in sugar which never entered into our possession, and never was refined. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Eaw sugars ? A. Yes. I may also say that the profits on refined sugars have been enormoosly exaggerated to the very great detriment of the business of this country. The absurd and preposterous rumors about the profits on sugar refin- ing have ruined lots of people. I have no objection to stating what is the position of the Company of which I am president. Since its inception it has paid dividends amounting to a fraction over 8 per cent, on the average, some years more and some years less, and some years nothing, but our profits have not averaged more than 8 and a fraction per cent. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland') : Q. Since its inception ? A. Yes. Since 1878, when our Company was organized,, and our stock at the present moment is to be had either at par or very close to it. That is the appreciation oar stockholders have of the enormous profits, and as I declared, large proportions of these dividends have been made out of dealings in SDgar apart altogether from refining. I think it would be difficult to find anywhere in the Dominion a more modest statement than that. It is only a fraction beyond bank interest. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is your stock paid up in full ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. What is your capital? A. Nominally, $1,000,000. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The refinery used to be in the hands of certain individuals before 1878, did it not? A. Yes. Q. And then you formed a joint stock company? A. Yes. Q. You say the nominal capital is $1,000,000. May I ask at what the original- plant and machinery was taken over for ? A. $400,000. Q. You say you have been paying 8 per cent, since 1878. Was that 8 per oent^ on the $1,000,000 ? A. No ; we have not $1,000,000 paid up. Q. What is your paid-up capital ? A. About $900,000 fully paid up. Q. And you paid 8 per cent, on that ? A. Yes. Q. You say a very large proportion of your profits and losses have been due to speculations in sugar ? A. Not speculation. Q. Well, by the buying and selling of sugar ? A. Yes. Q. You stated a little while ago that a great deal of this had never been refined. Do I understand, then, that you have been in the habit of buying sugar and selling it to other refiners ? A. Outside of the Dominion altogether. Q. But still that profit is included in the 8 per cent. ? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me what your plant and machinery and stock is valued at to- day? A. I do not remember exactly. There is very little diflference. Q. Only about $400,000 ? A. Yes. • Q. Is it not a fact that you have improved your stock and plant materially since 1878? A. The plant, of course, requires constant renovation. Q. Is it not a fact that you put in new plant and machinery lately ? A. We have to maintain the thing in a full state of efficiency. We do not write oflF any- thing for depreciation, while in some institutions they write off as much as 16 or 20 per cent. Q. You say your capital stock is about $900,000? A. Yes. Q. And about $400,000 in plant and machinery 7 What else is required for carrying on your business ? A. U requires an enormous stock to carry on oup business. For instance, in bringing our sugars from East Indies we sometimes boy A cargo of sugar and do not see it for 9 months. SUOAR AND G&OOEEIES. 5^ By the Chairman : Q. 1 suppose the value of the stock is a very good criterion of the profits. You say your stock is valued at about par ? A. Yes, about par. If it was ao enormously profitable business it would not be at that. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Your stock then would not be so valuable if it was not for the outside profits ? A. I do not think it would be. Q. If your stock had always been at par and you had been making exceptional profits this year we would have to infer that your profits this year wore not larger than those of former years ? A. 1 cannot follow that. Q. If your profits were e:sceptionally large in any one year, and your stock was still at par it does not prove anything if you do not know what the profits are ? A. I think the newspapers are pretty well informed as to the profits. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Do you keep a different account of your profits of the refining and of your profits on buying ? A. Totally impossible. Q. You cannot then give any opinion as to the profits of a refinery pure and simple? A. No; nobody can under the circumstances. Q. The plant engaged in refining sugar throughout the Dominion is more than fiufficient to supply refined sugar ? A. Yes; since the destruction of St. Lawrence refinery, we have been all summer supplying the demand and have always had a large stock. Q. The St. Lawrence is equipped and they will have more than sufficient plant ? A. Yes. Q. If this refinery keeps up there would be some competition among the refiners probably ? A. There is now. Q. The mills then could not run full time. They would have to combine or lose ? A. I think your arguments are perfectly sound. By the Chairman : Q. Have you any arrangements as to production among refiners? A. Yes, there was an understanding entered into whereby if the production exceeded the demand that we would cut down equally, that would reduce the production. By Mr. Guillet; Q. You had actually an understanding to do that ? A. Yes, upon that point we have an understanding. Q. That would regulate prices ? A. No, not at all ; as long as there was plenty of sugar to sell. By the Chairman : Q. Of course, in regulating the production you regulate ihe amount one has to sell ? A. Yes, but as a matter of fact it was always a great deal in excess. It was only in the winter months that that came into operation. Q. This present winter ? A. Yes. Q. You had no such arrangement before? A. No. Q. That is the only arrangement ? A. That is the only arrangement which ever existed. Q. How often is that arrangement made — weekly or monthly? A. At the end of the month. It was more of a political arrangement than anything else. The lower provinces claimed that they should have a fair share of the work, and at the beginning of the month the understanding was that we should see how much of stock was likely to be wanted for that month. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What month was that ? A. Every month. Any month. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is the arrangement going on now ? A. No, it has been dropped. It was foand that we did not care to keep it up. By the Chairman : Q. The arrangement does not exist no w ? A. The arrangement does not exist now«. 54 OEOBQS ALEXANDER DRUMMOND. By Mr. Bain {Weniworih) : Q. Is there any competition be ween refiners now in that case ? A. Yes, there is as mach as ever there was. Q. How can there be while this combination exists? A. What combination ? Q. Among the wholesale grocers? A. The wholesale grocers, with reference to all sugars, can buy them at any prices they like. I only find out what my competi- tors are charging through actual traubactions. Q. The wholesale grocers issue a price-lift once a week, upon which is entered the advance ihat they shall sell sugars? A. Yes. Q. They come to you for information with respect to these figures? A. Yes. Q. If the others undersell you materially, they would take the business which should fall to you, would they not ? A. That is a fact. Q. How do you remedy that ? A. Cut down our prices. We have never con- sidered ourselves bound at all by that list, by the prices given to them once a week. We may take it down next morning. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They may be selling at more than a quarter of a cent advacce. They are bound to sell at a quarter of a cent more than you charge? A. A quarter of a cent a pound on the price ruling on the date they issued their circular. If the market went up they were left, and if it went down they had an additional margin. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) ; Q. You said that your profits on an average were about eight per cent. ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know how your profits compare with the profits of other refiners ? A. 1 don't know at all. I have no idea whatever. Q. How many refineries are there m Canada? A. There have been quite a number. There have been 4 in Montreal and 2 in Halifax. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. Since 1878 ? A. No; going back further than that, one in Mcncton and on© in Farnham. By the Chairman ; Q. How many now? A. Well, in actual existence, there are our own, those at Moncton and Halifax. The Farnham, which was changed largely into a refinery has been silent for some time, and then the factories at Coaticook and Berthier. By Mr, Fiaher : Q. The Coaticook refinery is not working ? A. No. Q. Is the Berthier working ? A. She is not refining now. Q. It is not started yet ? A. Not yet; no. Q. There is the St. Lawrence refinery also? A Yes. Q, So when the St. Lawrence starts there will be five ? A. Yes, five. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. Have any of these refineries failed since 1878? A. Yea. Q. Did they fail before that ? A. Well, yes; the Halifax refineries, I think. Both of them failed practically. I think they must have spent in Halifax, on refin- ing plant, about $2,000,000. Q. Do you know what their stock is now ? A. I haven't the remotest idea. I know that in Nova Scotia I think that they must have spent 8800,000 on them, and then purchased it back from the bank for about $200,000 or $300,000. Q. On their plant? A. Yes; the whole thing. On the Woodside I think they mnst have spent aboat $800,000 on plant and baildings, and I think it must have been bought for from $150,000 to $200,000. Q. What i.i the capacity of the Halifax refinery about ? . A. Well, I cannot tell you. By the Chairman : Q. What is the capacity of yours ? A< Oufs is about 1,400 barrels a day. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The Halifax refinery is not of such a large capacity ? A. I think it is about 600 barrels. SUQAB AND aBOCEBIE", 55 Q. Less than one half ? A. Yes. Q. You say their plant cost about $800,000 ? A. I think so, $700,000 or $800,000. Q. Yon stated that your plant and buildings were only valued at 8450,000? A. It was not built new you understand. Q. You say it is now ser at that? A. It stands in our books at $500,000. Q. It is evident that you haven't rated it in your books according to the price your plant could be sold at now ? A. We bought it in a cheap time ; it may have been built in a very cheap time. Q It is a most extraordinary difference if the Halifax refinery costs $800,000. It is a curious thing ? A. I am only speaking from rumor. Q. Personally, you believe it from your knowledge as a sugar refiner? A. Yes- Q. It is very curious according to what you say, that your plant and buildings are really worth to-day oniy $450,000? A. I did not say what it was worth, I stated that it stood in the books of the company at $500,000. Q. Practically what stands in your books — the books of the Company — is not a very true guide as to its value ? A. Well, then, take some stock. Q. I am not discussing it from the point of view of buying or selling stock, I am discussing your evidence? A. Your argument is that the stock 's worth more. Q. What I want to find out is the statement which you have made and the com- parative statements you have made respecting the Halifax refinery and your own ? A. I am only speaking of the Halifax refinery from rumor. I am giving you that along with facts. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. How many hands do you employ at the refinery ? A. About 500 hands. Q. At full capacity ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Does that include the coopers who make the barrels ? A. Yes, I think it does. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They are all men mostly, you don't employ boys ? A. Very few boys, a few message boys, nearly all men. By Mr. Wood : Q. Do you know how many are employed directly or indirectly. A. We bring in an immense quantity of shipping and an immense number of carters are employed, and we give a great deal of employment outside but I did not count them. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You employ 500 hands about the buildings — the necessary hands ? A. Yes* By Mr. Guillet : Q. Where is your coal produced ? A. It is nearly all Cape Breton coal and Nova Scotia coal . By the Chairman : Q. How much do you use? A. About 18,000 or 20,000 tons a year. I am only guessing. David Sinclair gworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation ? A. Salesman. Q. Where is your residence ? A. Montreal. Q. Are you the secretary of the Canada Sugar Eefinery ? A. I am the sales- man for the refinery. Q. Who do you sell to ? Are your sales restricted to any persons, fiuch as this list of persons that you are to confine your sales to at the favored prices ? A. Yes. This is the list that is handed to me as those I am to sell to at the lowest prices* (Exhibit 1.) £6 DAVID SINOLAIS. Q. Who do yon got that list from ? A. This list is sent into our refinery by the Wholesale Grooors' Guild as you will see there. I cannot tell whether this list is an exact copy of the one I have got. Q. Have you any of these price lists ? Have you seen them (Exhibits 2 and 3) ? A. Yes. These price lists I believe are issued by the Wholesale Grocers' Association and 1 see one once a week. Q. Tell us what you know about the arrangement made between the wholesale grocers and the refining companies? A. I don't know of any arrangement per- sonally, all I know is from what I get from my president and board of directors. I don't know anything personally of any arrangement. By the Chairman-. Q. All the information then is obtained from Mr. Drummond ? A. Xes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Is it not a fact that you sold to J. A. Matthewson & Co. lately ? A. Not very lately. Q. Have you, Mr. Sinclair, sold any sugars to Messrs. J. A. Matthewson & Co. this year? A. We may have sold some early in January. Q. If so you charged them the advance ? A. If I sold them it was at the ad- vanced price. Q. You charged them more than you did those on this list ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know of any other wholesale house who are not on that list ? A. Do I know of any ? Q. Yes, in the Province of Ontario and Quebec ? Has it come to your know- ledge that there are any other wholesale grocers who are not on this list? A. Yes, I know of a house in Quebec who are not on this list, Mr. Joseph's. By Mr. Fisher : Q. As salesman in the Canada Sugar Refinery, if you were applied to to sell Bugar, would you immediately sell at tne lowest price that you were in ihe habit of fielling to another individual that was not known to you? A. I would not quote to any individual that was not known to me. I would require to know all about him, and then have the sanction of my president. I do not open any new accounts, nor would I quote prices to gentlemen unless I knew them personally, Q. If a wholesale grocer, known to you as a wholesale grocer, comes to yon and wishes to buy sugar from you, would you refer it to your president before seli.ng ? A. That would depend upon whether we had been selling tbem or not. It might be necessary to consult Mr. Drummond before selling. Q. Then you refer to the list of those who are in the guild ? A. I know those who are our customers perfectly well, and therefore I do not require to refer to any list. Q. You know the rates at which you sell to those individuals ? A. Yes. Q. Do you sell to all of them at the same rate ? A. Not in every ease. Q. What makes you make a difference in their rates ? A. There may be certain reasons as to quantity. Q. I mean the same quantity ? A. I sell at the same rate to men whom I know are entitled to it. Q. Whether they belong to the Wholesale Grocers' Guild or not ? A. Oh. no. Q. You have different rates then for those who belong to the guild and those who do not ? A. As a matter of fact, I have no authority to sell to anyone outside the guild . Q. Mr. Sinclair, you have been there for some time? A. Yes* Q. You are perfectly well aware of the fact that individuals in the guild get better rates than thoso outside of it ? A. I said so before. By the Ghairman : Q. Who furnishes you with the prices at which you are to sell the sugar,? A. On the prices of the general market, without consulting with Mr. Drummond I eometimes fix the prices for different lots myself. He cannot fix the prices on every lot ; I consult him with regard to some, while on others I do not get any opinion from him. SUGAB AND QBOOEBIES. 57 Q. Do you have any communication with other refiners ? A. None whatever. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do yon issue the weekly prices or does Mr. Drummond ? A. Oq the Friday- afternoon generally a member of the guild comes in and asks me, " what is the price to-day ?" and I tell him, the price of granulated in every case. I do not know what the prices of other refiners are. Sometimes our agents notify us that other ro- fineries are underselling us one-eighth and sometimes a quarter of a cent, but I give them our price. I think our prices might be changed to-morrow morning, if I have different instructions from Mr. Drummond. £y Mr. Quillet : Q. In selling to the guild, do you sell 1,000 barrel lots cheaper than 200 barrel lots ? A. If I had an offer for 1,000 barrels I would consult Mr. Drummond, and it would depend upon his ideas as to how the markets were. Q. If one dealer bought 1,000 barrels you would have more profit in sending it out than if he only bought 200 barrels? A. I suppose so. By Mr. Fisher: Q. You are instructed to sell to all the members of the guild at the same price? A. Yes. Q. Whatever amount they take ? A. If a man wants to buy 1,000 barrels, or 500 barrels, I ask him to give me his offer. I will then consult Mr. Drummond, and we will decide whether we take it or not. Q. But the prices that are quoted to the guild every Friday evening, is that the price fixed for that date ? A. Yes, that is the price fixed on that date. Q. Do you fix that price according to the mere amounts ? A. No. Q. If you had an order for 100 or 1,000 barrels, would you fix it at the 100 ? |A. That is the question. We might sell 100 barrels at one price and 1,000 barrels^at another price. For instance, I might aek air. Drummond how we should fix the price of granulated now. Q. For the guild? A. Yes. By Mr. Bam ( Wenlworth) : Q. Do you make any restrictions as to quantities? It has been charged that those outside of the guild could not buy refined sugars without buying twice the quantity of yellows. Is it not a fact ? A. I have had no occasion to deul with that questioD. Q. Does it not come within your knowledge ? A. I have no dealings with it*. By the Chairman : Q. Did the wholesale guild make that arrangement with you ? A. I made na arrangement with the wholesaie guild. The matter was arranged with the refiaers. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You have no instructions? A. No. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You made a sale to Mr. Matthewson in January? A. I do not know. I think we did, but I cannot state positively. Q. You do not know whether that; was white and yellow both or white alone? A. No. Our sales are large and I cannot remember each one. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You do not remember ? A. No, I do not remember that fact. Q. If the members were reduced in this list would it be simply submitted to you or would Mr. Drummond be consulted ? A. I presume Mr. Drummond would be coni!.ulted. I know if they took off any ofoiir customers, I should consult thorn; but if they took off those who were not our customers, I would not consult him. There are a large number on that list who are not scored and with whom we never did any bnsine(=s Q. A re there any brokers on this list who buy to sell to the trade? A. I do not know of any one. The Committee adjourned. 58 ▲LEXANDSR DONALD FRA^XE. House op Commons, Ottawa, 14th March, 1588. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations mot this mornirg, Mr. Wallace in the Chair. Alexandbb Donald Fbaser, of Montreal, retail grocer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. I see your name to a petition, Mr. Praser (Exhibit 12) protesting against this Wholesale Grocers' Guild. Would you not make a statement of yoar grievances and whom you represent ? A. Our case is pretty well stated in a petition that we pre- sented to Mr. Drummond last October. By the instructions of the president of our association I have been requested to band in a copy of the petition which we presented and which we think states pretty well our case. The following is the petition : — George A. Drummond, Esq., President Canada Sugar Eefining Company, Montreal. Sir, — As members of the executive committee of the Grocers' Association of Montreal, we beg to submit for your consideration the following statements : — At a meeting of oar association held on Thursday, the 6th instant, the following resolution was unanimously adopted : " That this meeting of the Grocers' Associa- tion of Montreal desires to record its protest against the unjast combination which at pregent exists between the sugar refiners and the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, and that the executive committee of this association be requested to take the matter up at once and endeavor to secure a satisfactory and feasible arrangement with the sugar refiners." We respectfully beg to supplement the above resolution with the following statement of grievances : — W6 first premise "that for many years a large majority of the members of our association have handled with pleasure and profit granulated sugar, the produce of the Canada Sugar Eefinery ; that we have no fault whatever to find with the quality of sugar supplied by that refinery, on the contrary, we are glad to bo nble to bear testimony to its uniform excellent quality ; that we desire it to bo understood that we do not object to a proper scale of duties being placed on the importation into Canada of refined sugars in order to protect, encourage and foster this industry in Canada ; That for many years, in fact from its foundation, until quite recently, the doors of the Canada Sugar Refinery were open to all members of the trade, both whole-: t^a o and retail, who might bo m a position to purchase the quantities fixed upon as a limit by your company and at prices fixed upon by such quantities. We, therefore, object that under the present arrangement which exists between the Canada Sugar Refinery and tbe Wholesale Grocers' Guild, we are denied this privilege and compelled to pay a certain fixed tribute or profit to certain jobbers and middlemen on this necessary and leading article of our trade; that the present arrangement discriminates most unfairly against an overwhelrairg majority of the retail grocery trade throughout the city and Dominion, inasmuch as it would seem to your subscribers quite impossible to draw the line strictly hh between a wholesale and retail merchant ; that many members of the so-called Wholosulc Grocers' Guild and others who, under the present arrangement are receiving their supplies direct from the refinery, are not simply wholesale merchants, mauafacturers or jobbers, luL me in point of fact largely engaged in a retail family trade ; that in consequence of the combination at present exiHting, such parties are enabled to purchase their supplies of granulated and other sugars at lower prices thtin other members of the retail trade, thereby placing the large majority of the members of our trade at a meet serious disadvantage in the legitimate prosecution of their business ; that the tax we are compelled to pay jobbers and others as a profit on refined sugars is most exorbitant and unwarranted ; that the combination exists to the great dotrimont and iojary of consumers throaghont the Dominion ; SUGAR AND OBOOXRIKS. 69" That while we admit it is a matter with which we have nothing to do, we may be allowed to express the opinion that the sales of refined sugars, manufactured in Canada, are not increased or advanced in any way in consequerce of ihe present combination. Therefore, we respectfolly request that you will'be kind enough to give this com- munication your serious consideration, and we trust that an arrangement may be oonsummated satisfactorily to all concerned. Yours respectfully, THOMAS GAUTHIER, President, ALEX. D. FKASBR. Vice-President. GEOEGE GRAHAM, \ Members of the JOHN ROBERTSON, j Executive Committee, Q. You say " that the eale of refined sugars manufactured in Canada are not increased or advanced in any way in consequence of the present combination." You simply mean in reference to the price ? A. We thought at the time that it was in the interest of the Canada Sugar Refinery. If they did not sell more sugar it was simply because of the higher price. By Mr. Guillet : Q, What was the difference in the price of sugar to those in the guild and ta those outside of the guild? A. A quarter of a cent on 15 barrel lots and on less than 16 barrels f of a cent. By the Chairman : Q. The difference is a quarter of a cent and how much discount ? A. A quarter of a cent and 2J per cent, discount. The discount to retailers is 1^ per cent. Q. Mr. Drummond stated that the only difference was a quarter of a cent ? A. At that time it migrht have been, but it has changed since. By Mr. Quillet : Q. As a matter of fact the wholesale jobber does not give more than IJ percent^ discount ? A. 1^ per cent, sixty days. By the Chairman. : Q. He has never given more than 1^ per cent. ? A. I would not swear that. By Mr. Boyle ; Q. What terms do the refiners give the jobbers ? A. 2J per cent. di sale at less than their price. Q. That is, less than the price you buy it at ? A. They have sliding prices. They fix the price. If you take 10 boxes of starch, you get one price, if you take 25 boxes, you get another ; and lOU boxes, another. You must not sell lower than their lowest price. I have to buy 100 boxes of starch. But they do not question me as to what 1 shall retail it at, but I must not wholec^ale it at less than their lowest price. By Mr. Fisher : Q. If you were to be allowed to enter this arrangement, you would not object to it ? A. I certainly would. Q. Your objection to the arrangement is, that you are not allowed as a retailer to cMer it? A. I am not allowed, but I object to it on principle. It is not good for the wholesale men, or anyone else. By Mr. Landry : Q. Your objection would be not because of the thing itself, but simply because it does not extend to everybody ? A. It is worse than the others. They are all bad, but this is the worst. Q. If you were allowed in, you would not object provided they would allow your neighbor in ? A. They dictate at what I shall sell. Q. On other things they do too, and if you object, it should be a decided objec- tion ? A. I object to the whole thing on principle, but there are m^ny things we have to submit to, and which we cannot help. By Mr. McKay : Q. You are into something like a combine when you agree not to sell certain things under a certain figure ? A. There are reasons for that. Q. Ihat is a fact, though? A. Yes, but there are reasons. I have not made my fortune yet. I am not prepared to go out of business. You cannot get the firoods unless you sign their combination. You cannot get their stuff, you must BJgn. *J2 JOHN ROBERTSON. By Mr. Fisher : Q. And agree to sell at certain prices ? A. They do not fix our retail prices, but we cannot sell wholesale below their figures. By Mr, Landry : Q. Does not that retail association of yours require on the part of wholesale dealers that they shall not sell at retail prices ? A. They have asked thom, and remonstrated, but have not exacted it. Q. In making this representation it is almost the same as exacting? A. I would put it in a different light. There was no idea of boycotting. Q. You asked them, and they consented ? A. They possibly did, but I do not know that they have got it. I am not in a position to know that they have not. By Mr. McKay : Q. Would you patronize a man who went round and sold to your retail cus- tomers ? A. I am not obliged to ; but I would not like it. Q. Who suffers by that ? Who suffers provided the wholesale man can sell at retail prices to the consumer? A. I believe the consumer suffers in the long run, because the wholesale man makes far more profit. I have proven that it would be cheaper to buy from me. They go down and buy a box of tea, and are charged 15 cts. a lb. more than I would have sold it to them for. By Mr. Wood : Q. Do you approve of dividing the trade into wholesale and retail ? A. No, I believe in equal fair play for all, not boycotting any man. I believe it is not consis- tent for a man who claims to be a wholesale man to go round and sell his goods retail. That is all 1 can say, I do not think it is any crime. By Mr. GUmor : Q. The retail man would not patronize such a man ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. You spoke about other articles when you named the different articles that were in combination in year trade. We had a witness here the other day who stated that there were only combinations in three articles outside of sugar. He was not in the sugar combination, and he stated that the only other combination that exists was in baking powder, matches and tobacco. These are the only ones he knew of. Mr. Bain (Wentworth). He mentioned pickles, but he said he did not handle them. The Chairman. We mentioned other articles, but he denied that he knew any- thing about thom. He said there was no combination. Mr. Fisher. He said he was not in any other combination, but he would not deny that there was any such. The Witness. Cook's Friend Baking Powder is one, and now I am speaking of what 1 know; there may be other baking powders in combination, but I do not know whether there are or not. Then there are matches. Tobacco I do not deal in. Then there is Nestl6's Food, Berger's starch, Crosse & Blackwell's pickles. They do not carry all their lines through, they only take in pickles. Then there are biscuits of Canadian manutacture. All these biscuit men have fixed prices. By Mr. Guillet. Q. How long has the biscuit combination existed ? A. Two or three years. By the Chairman : Q. These are fixed prices that wholesale men have to sell them at? .A. I be- lieve these biscuit men have a combination among themselves. One will not sell you cheaper than another. They do not say, however, what you shall sell them at. II you buy their goo Is at 25 cents you can sell them at '10 or 21 or whatever you like. Then there is Brantford starch, and the soap makers I think have a combination. I do not know the facts, but I know you have to buy certain quantities — 100 boxes, I believe^specially Queen's Laundry bar. There are also different kinds of liquors, gin, rye whiskey and high wines. Q. Do you import those? A. Yes; gin is imported. Q. All wholesale men sell at the same prices r A. Yes. SUGAB AND QROCEBIES. tS By Mr. Guillet : Q. Brandy ? A. No ; I do not know of any combination in brandy. Each maker stands on his merits. Gin is the only one among imported liquors. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Is there any in home made liquors ? A. Yes ; rye whiskey and high wines. Q. Beer ? A. I do not know of any in beer. Q. In Gooderham's rye whit- key there is no restriction as to the quantity to bo purchased ? A. Yes ; I think so . By the Chairman : Q. 1 understood that Gooderham's is sold in quantity at the same price ; only the discount is different ? A. That comes to the same thing. Q. What we want to understand is that these men, the wholesale grocers, have |; it fixed price for old rye, below whi^h none of them dare sell ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth') : Q. Is there any penalty ? A. That I cannot say. 1 am not in it. By the Chairman : Q. Who fixes the price? A. Ixio not know. Q. Men buying from Gooderham & Worts do not need to sign an ^reement ? Mr. Fbaseb. — We require to sign an agreement. Mr. Robertson.— They will not sell you less than half a car, I think it is, of whiskey. By Mr. Fisher: Q. You spoke of Crosse & Blackwell's pickles, Berger's starch and several other "things, which are particular things manufactured by one firm, as 1 understand it ? Now, does that firm of Crosse & Blackwell impose upon those who buy from them 4Uiy particular conditions as to their sale ? For instance take Crosse & Blackwell's pickles. If you buy their pickles you can only do bo on the understanding that you «ell them at certain figures ? A. Yes ; or you cannot get them. Q. But they combine among themseives to sell only to certain people? A. Not ■at all. Q. These conditions which Crosse & Blackwell make are their own, and there ia not an arrangement with any other? A. Not that I know of. Q. This is not the same arrangement as exists between the refiners and the wholesale merchants ? A. No. Q. Then Berger's starch would be in the same list ? A. Yes. Q. The other starch manufacturers you speak of are members of the starch com- bination. Have they any agreement among themselves that you know of as to the prices at which they will sell ? A. I think they have. Q. Have they any agreement with any body of wholesalers or other dealers aa to who they shall sell to ? A. I think not. They will sell to anybody who will take the quantity. Q. That is not an agreement in the nature ofthe sugar agreement? A. No, tho sugar agreement is the worst of the lot. Q. It is not only the worst in the fact of being more important, but it is in the nature of the agreement itself ? A. Both ways it is worse. It is the great staple Article, amounting to more than all the others put together. It is what everybody must have, poor people and all. Q. There is a difference in the principle ofthe agreement itself? A. Ithink so. Q. These others are simply an arrangement either by one individual, as Crosse & Bluckwell, or an arrangement amongst a certain number of men amongst them- selves in the same class of trade, but not with any other. That is to say, it is aa arrangement among manufacturers whereby they agree amongst themselves to sell only at certain prices, but will sell to anybody who will buy the quantity ? A. Yes, anybody who will buy the quantity. Q. Bat do not force them to sell at a certain price ? A. Yes, they do some- times. Q. Bat they will sell to anybody ? A. Yes, the consumer can buy if be likes* 74 JOHN BOBERTSON. Q. The amount of the sale regulates the price ? A. Yes. Q. In the sense of fixing the price they are the same as the sugar refiners? A. In that sense, as far as fixing the price. Q. But when it comes to refusing to sell they do not carry it so far? A. They will sell to anybody. By Mr. Landry : Q. But the consumer suffers the same, although the trade does not? A. I do not say that. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You cannot sell retail less than you buy wholesale ? A. No. By Mr. Bain (WentwortK) : Q. They limit you to sell at prices not below theirs, or at less than wholesale rate ? A. They give you a certain discount, the prices being the same in most cases. It is 5 per cent, off, or 10, according to the quantity, but you must not sell less than their original price. Take Cook's Friend, the price is $2.40 a dozen to anybody and everybody, but they give to the man who takes the quantity a certain discount ; he must not, however, sell below $2.40. By Mr. Fisher : Q. There is no fixed advance ? A. No, but it cannot be sold for less than $2.40. By Mr. Boyle : Qi How much discount? A. That would not be right to expose a man's busi- ness. It would not be right I think. It is not my own, and I would be interfering with another man's business. Q. You are interfering with the trade, because the profit is to the trade? A. If the Committee think 1 have to answer it, I will, but it is not a question you should force me to answer. By Mr. GuiUet : Q. Has the price increased to the consumer? A. Not at all. Q. Are they not putting up a smaller parcel for a pound ? A. They are putting up a smaller paicel of Cook's Friend, but do not say it is a pound. Q. But in such a shape that it might be sold for a pound ? A. I think it is 12 or 14 ounces. Q. And might be sold to the consumer without his discovering it ? A. I never had those parcels in my shop. By Mr. Landry : Q, What is the penalty to anybody who sells under the wholesale prices ; can you got any goods again ? A. At $2.40 they will sell to anybody. Q. And you will get the discount? A. No, not unless you comply with their termt. Q. If you refuse to do this ? A. They will not sell you again. By Mr. McDougall : Q. Tbpy give the same discount to all parties purchasing small quantities^ whether a dealer or not ? A. I cannot answer that question. Thoy are supposed to do so. I think they do. By Mr. McKay : Q. In this case the price fixed for you was $2.40, and if you go below that price and give the consumer the benefit of your discount, you are not allowed to do that ? A No. Q. The penalty is you get no more of those goods ? A. No. Q. The consumer is the sufferer in this deal ? A. Oh, no. Q. You can give your consumers the benefit of the discount if you wished, could yon iiot? A. The discount is not big enough to divide. Q. You cannot do as you like ? A. You cannot sell it under $2.40. Q. If you wanted to sell a customer some Cook's Friend Baking Powder cheap for the purpose of getting his good will, you would like the privilege of doing it ? A. You are to follow the agreement. Qi There is an agreement ? A. Yes. 8VQAB, AND GROCERIES. 75 Q. You are not allowed to^treat your customers as you would like to do in some goods ? A. You are not allowed to sell it under the price. By tfie Chairman : Q. There is no necessity for such an agreement, if I understand you, because they sell you high enough and you cannot afford to sell it at less? A. Yes, you can buy it for $i.40 any place, but if you want to get the advantage of the discount, you must agree to sell it at not less than $2.40. Q. The protection the public get is the competition of a dozen other members who claim, and the probability is, that they have as good an article ? A. Oh, yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I understand that in the question of starch the makers agree to sell at the same prie^? A. The makers of Canadian starch. I think so. Q, Biscuits, too ? A. The biscuit makers I think are the same ; the majority of them, Q, Does their association bind yon not to sell below a certain price ? A. I think not. All the biscuit makers' association fix is the price at which they sell to retailers. Q, They will sell to anybody ? A. Anybody, Q. They are different from the starch makers and the sugar makers? A. Yes. Q. The question I wish to arrive at is whether this is a mere association or agree- ment among themselves or not, or whether this is an association by which they coerce the retailers. It seems to me that this is a distinction between conspiracy and a trade agreement. In one case Mr. Eobertson says the biscuit makers agree among them- selves that they will sell at a certain price but they do not coerce anybody in regard to his business, but the question is, do they only agree amongst themselves as to their business ? A, It is only some few staple articles in which we are coerced, with the others you can do what you like. Q. In the starch agreement and the sugar agreement, as I understand, they individually agree among themselves that they will sell to you or anybody else at a certain price, but you in turn must sell at a certain price. Again, they not only^ arrange about their own business, but coerce you about your own business? A. 1 take these to be about the terms. Q. That is why £ draw the distinction between trade arrangement and con- spiracy ; the question is, what is the nature of the agreement between the manufac- turers ? A. 1 cannot tell . Q. You say you are pledged in one case ? A. I know my part of the agreement, but 1 nave never seen a copy of the agreement amongst themselves. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What would they do supposing an independent manufacturer went in ? A. I don't know of any case of the kind. I did know of a case of the kind before this agreement existed, and they were cutting on the sale of these biscuits, and what we pay 6 cents for now, we got then for 4, and all other things equal, I believe. By the Chairman : Q. Do you think the biscuit agreement is practically an agreement the same a» the others ? A. I don't know, I know we did think, before the agreement, we were selling too cheap then, or perhaps too dear now. I could not answer that question. By Mr. Guillet : Q. As a matter of fact are not the ingredients cheaper now than then ? A. I think ihey are. I think flour is as cheap. The manufacturers said they were losings money then. By Mr. Fisher : Q. When they sold you at 4 cents they were losing money they said ? A. I think so. There was a new factory started and there was one running in opposition to the other, and they were just running one another to death, and the general opinion not only among the biscuit men, but among the grocers as well, was that the thing should come to an end, and there was an arrangement to pay one price for biscuits entered into. *16 JOHNvROBBETSON. By Mr, Boyle : Q. Crosse & Blackwell are English manufactttrers ? A. Yes. Q, Are there no other standard manufacturers of pickles who sell in this country? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Imported? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. There is one called Batty? A. Yes, I did'nt know there was any combi- nation on them. Q. They have co agents in this country? A. I don't know, I did'nt deal with them at all. Q. Might there Dot be an understanding between these manufacturers in England, as to how prices would be regulated in this country ? A. There might be. The document they give us to sign is simply that we shall not sell goods at less than a certain price. Q. Was it Crosse & Blackwell's agent who gave you this document to sign ? A. Yes ; it was Blackwell himself. He said he had made a trip to Canada to know why his goods were not selling as freely as they used to in this market, these recent years, and Jie learned that the wholesale people would not keep them as they could make no profit on them, as all the retailers imported them themselves and there was so much competition that they would not keep them in stock, and he was forced to make this agreement to get them to take his goods, and the agent says that the sale haa now increased. I don't know how much and how they make a profit on them for selling them. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Other goods must have taken the place of Crosse & Blackwell's pickles ? A. Oh, some of these others. Batty 's and other importations. Q. Canadian pickles ? A. There are some few Canadian pickles. I haven't seen any of any account. By Mr. Boyle : Q. It would be impossible for Crosse & Blackwell to make a corner on their Sickles without an arrangement with the other manufacturers ? A. You don't know lem if you take that view. Crosse & Blackwell are very independent people. The pickles are there and they are wanted. By the Chairman : Q. Their sale having been lessened, they came out to see what was the matter ? A. These pickles used to cost us $2.85 net, and they were retailed around the country at 25 cents a bottle. You can quite understand that the wholesale men didn't want to do anythintr in that class of goods. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. I think yon said some time ago you believed in perfect freedom in trade among the wholesalers and retailers? A. Yes. Q. And if I understoo 1 you right in the case of the sugar refinery, for instance, you took the ground that any person that goes there with the money has a right to buy at the same price as any in the trade ? A. Yes. Q. Do you lay down, then, as a principle, that a sugar refinery or any person in business has no right to select his customers? A. lie has a perfect right to select his customers as far as the question of getting pay for his goods goes. Q. Yes as these customers go there with money, with cash, he has no right to Belect hirt customers ? A. I think there is a great difference between a man in Frivato business and a general Joint Stock Company protected by the Grovernment, think that we should have free trade at the latter. I think that makes a great •difference with these. Q. You think a private individual would have that right and the company would not have it ? A. I think so. I think it was never the intention — if I may be allowed to say so — when the tariff was arranged for such a protection as it is now, that they were going to take the merchants of Canada by the throat and keep them in their power< SlTGAa AND OROOERIBS. 7T Q. They cannot advance beyond the protection given them ? A. Ob, no. There is the whole secret. We don't ask to bay from the other side. I think the tariff shonld be reduced . Q Then you would import? A. Yes. Q, Then you would have to reduce below the point at whi<5h they could manu- facture it ? A, I think not, sir. If they had'nt too much protection, we would not have this busineee. They have too much protection and they can share it. Q. How much too much protection have they ? A. Just about three-eighths of J per cent. If that J of a cent were off we would show them a little fun. We don't believe in throwing our money away however. The duty on sugar now is about 62 per cent., as near as I can figure it, but that is a pretty good duty to pay on sugar. That is not refined sugar either. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What is the duty on refined sugar ? A. I don't know. Thb Chairman — We are not discussing the policy of the Grovernment abonl putting the duty on raw sugars. By Mr. Wood : Q. I might ask this question — I don't know that there is any advantage in fol- lowing out that point that we were just discussing, but that the same remedy would not apply to these other combinations that you speak of, would it ? A. They are not made in the country, many of them. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Matches ? A* Matches are not one man's goods. If you don't want Eddy's matches, you can buy the others. Q. Sugars, pickles and all these things you were speaking of ? A. Pickles are only one man's goods. Q. Would you remedy the grievances you complain of by reducing the tariff?' A. The grievances in this case are different. These are goods manufactured in this country and refined in this country. By Mr. Landry: Q. The remedy don't apply ? A. I might bring them under it ; yes. Q. You suggest the reduction of the duties as a remedy for the sugar combina- tion, especially ? A.I don't know that it is my place to suggest any such thing. Q. That is your opinion that it would remedy it ? A. Yes, if you increase the standard to 16. Q. For that particularly, but not for the others? A. Increase the standard from the standard of 14 to 16, and reduce the tariff eo there would be room to bring in a little lot once in a while. Q. That would not be the general remedy to break the combination deal ? A. I don't think so. Q. It would simply apply to this particular case ? A. Yes. Q. I want to follow out that idea a little further to get your ideas with regard to a man's right or privilege to choose his own customers. Suppose this case : Suppose that the Montreal Sugar Eefinery, for instance, or the Canada Sugar Eefinery, found that one of their customers who was paying cash for sugar was selling it at cost or below cost, as a saerifice article, an advertising medium, or something of that kind for his business, and if the refinery found that though selling for cash to that particular man, they were losing trade in other quarters, would that be good reason for the refinery refusing to sell him ? A. As to whether it would be a legal reason or not, I don't know. 1 think it would be a good reason. I don't think that is the position they take though. Q. I was asking whether they would have the right in that case to exclude that man from their list of customers ? A. I should feel inclined to do it myself. Q. That is if you had twenty wholesale customers and you found that one of them was cutting the prices and through that yon were losing the trade of some of your customers, yon would be very apt to cut him off, even if he did pay cash ? A. Yes. 'IS JOHN ROBERTSON, Q. What is your opinion with regard to the principle of cutting prices? Do you think tne public (the consumer), in the long ran, gets any benefit from that? A. Well, it in a very long question to answer that. There are a great many diflferent circumstatices. A man that pays 100 cents on the dollar and cuts prices, it is cer* tainly a benefit to the consumer. Q. That ig, on that article, but that man, if he continues to do business, must make that good on something else ? A. Certainly he must or else he has got to compromise. Q. So that really the consumer might get the temporary advantage in one particular instance, but on the whole do you think the consumer gets any advantage from that cutting of prices ? A. i don't think so. And I would like to add to that, that it is not at all my view of doing business, cutting prices away down. I believe in a legitimate profit. By Mr. Fisher : Q. One man might be willing to make a smaller profit than another. He should have the right to do so if he chooses. That might be called cutting prices. One man might sell still closer than another man, and make a living profit? A. Yes, it is quite possible. It is quite possible for you to do business and take lu per cent., and I might make money out of the same business and do it at 7 per cent. By the Chairman : Q. Have you sold sugar at cost at any time ? A. Yes, when the market went -down. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Independent of the rise and fall of the market? A» No. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. If a certain number of grocers then found one or two of their number cutting prices and in their opinion do what was not a wholesome and legitimate business, do you think it would be wrong for them to go together to the sugar refiner and say : " We will take your whole production, provided you do not sell to these other men ? ' A. Yes. I don't think that this aflfects the case. Q. Would you consider that an improper thing to do? A. I would consider that a man has to sell out all he has got, but I take exception to that in this case, because the sugar is for sale and at an advanced price we cannot buy it at. I can send to the refinery day after day and they sell, but the prices are so high that we cannot buy it. That is a different thing from being sold out of goods altogethep. A man has a perfect right to sell out. Q. Would you object to a certain number of grocers, if they found one of their number cutting prices and injuring the trade in their opinion, going to the refinery and saying : " We will take all your sugar, provided you won't sell any man outside except at a certain advance?" A. I would not call that legitimate. That is a dif- ferent thing from selling goods out altogether. Q. These wholesale men buy the whole product of the refinery, don't they ? A. I don't think they io. They buy simply what they need. Q. Then the refinery sells to men outside the guild ? A. Yes, if they will buy from them. Q. You do not know that they do ? A. I think they can buy cheaper from the second men. 1 don't think they do. I know that I can buy 10 or 15 barrels of sugar by getting an order on a refinery for it. The price of sugar is fixed. The wholesale men get the profit and they never see the sugar at all. By Mr. Fisher : Q. There are a number of men on that list who are mere jobbers of that kind, and they don't handle the goods at all ? A. The guild ? Q. Yes ? A.. Oh, yes, I suppose the most of them keep some sugar on hand . Q. I presume, a good many just do a jobbing trade ? A. Any man in business would rather deal that way. He sells his sugar and gets his money, and he goes and pays for it in 14 days. SUGAB AND aBOOBRIES. 79 Q. He does not keep a stock unless he thinks sngar will advance ? A. 1 don't think they get ary advantage now in baying a larger lot. The price is there, and you can take what you want. Q. That is not in accordance with Mr. Sinclair's evidence taken last night ? By Mr. Guillet : Q. Mr, Sinclair said they would sell a large lot ? A. I do not know as to the internal arrangement of their office. By Mr. Landry: Q. How is it in your opinion that for several years the refiners sank so much money. I understood you a few moments ago to say that the protection enabled these people to control the markets, and make immense profits, bat for a number of years they did cot make these profits ? A. That is a hard question for me to answer, but everybody knows that the raw material kept going down until there was no bottom under it. Q. Then the protection did not enable them to manipulate ? A. Any man who imported sugar lost money. I lost money myself. It kept going down and down. Q. The fact of their being able to make profits is not entirely the effect of pro- tection ? A. Not entirely. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Are you what is generally known as a free trader in principle ; do you believe in any extent in protection to raise up home industry ? A. I do, or I should not have signed that petition. Q. You said you thought the remedy was to reduce the protection on sugar ? A. Yes. Q. Do yon know what protection the refiners have now ? A. There is J a cent a poncd, and 5 per cent. It is on a sliding scale. Q. The refiners have to pay a heavy duty on raw sugar? A. Yes, for re ven uejpu r poses. Q. The other protection consists of the difference between raw sugar and what you would have to pay on refined sugar if imported ? A. And what they make out of it. Q. I am told the average is about 2'60, and on the raw 1'90? A. I cannot say as to that. I kcow I made up the duty that was paid on some raw sugar recently and it came to between 61 and 61^ per cent. Q. Do you mean yellow sugar? A. It was under 14 Dutch standard. It was a bright sample, and they had hard work to get it through. By the Chairman : Q. What was the actual duty ? A. It was 1 cent a pound and 30 per cent., and 7^ per cent on the whole duty. Q. What did it cost you in New York in bond ? A. 4*55 per cwt. I am only speaking from memory, it was 4'50 or 4 55 per cwt. Q. The duty would be 2-73 ? A. Yes, it costs nearly the same as granulated. It is a stronger sugar, but the color is not there, and people will not have it. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That is not a raw sugar such as refiners would import ? A. No, they bring in lower priced sugar, Q. That has no effect on the duty which refiners would have to pay ? A. No, not at all. I am only giving these figures out of my mind, they may be wrong, but the others I can vouch for. By Mr. McKay : Q. What would be the price of English or Scotch sugar laid down in Montreal ? A. That is a matter of figures. Sugar fluctuates so much there, it is up and down. I do not thick it can be imported here. Q. It could not to compete with the refiners ; but do you know the prices at which it could be laid down ? A. It is costing 7f to 7^ cents. But really I do not know. 80 JOHN ROBERTSON. By Mr. GUlmor : Q. All sugar manufacturers here seem agreed as to how much they shall sell at ? A. Yes, 1\ cents with 2 J per cent, discount. By Mr. Ftsher : Q. It would range about ^ cent higher than Canadian sugars ? A. Yes, more. The wholesale man's price of granulated is 7 cents, less 2^ per cent, discount. I do not believe but that any sugar that is being brought in now costs more than that. Mr. GuiLLET— Mr. Drummond said last night that the import price would be higher, and that the price was not up to the protection. By Mr. Fisher : Q. He said he regulated his prices below ? A. But the price of granulated to- day is not as high as it was a month ago. It was 7f cents for the retail trade, and now it is 7 J cents. There is ^ a cent off. I am not a sugar man, but I could not see the cause of its going up so much, nor can I see the reason for its coming down, Q. This sugar arrangement could not be kept in force if it were not for the agreement of the refiners ? A. Of couree not. By Mr. Bain (^Soulanges) : Q. Did you apply toother refiners? A. Yes. Q. And they would not sell you ? A. Only on the same terms. They are all the same. I have it from the agent of one of the others. I accused him of being in a combine, but he said : " It is no combine." I said: *♦ What do you call it ? " He said : *' We agree to protect the guild." By the Chairman : Q. Did he say what arrangement they had for making the prices uniform among the refiners ? A, That is their own business. Mr. Gruillet : Q. It appears there is no extension of this guild to Nova Scotia, New Brumswick, or British Columbia ? A. No, Q. Is it confined to Ontario and Quebec ? A. I do not know. Q. It must be as they have not entered into this combination ? A, I do not really know. Mr. GuiLLBT— So that men down in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia can Bell, while Ontario and Quebec are keeping up the prices. By Mr. Gillmor : Q, Have you ever made any application to the refiners of Monoton to purchase sugar ? A. I have. Q. Do you believe they are a party to this arrangement ? A. They have an agent in Montreal, and he told me so himself. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Have you made application to the Nova Scotia refinery yourself? A. Not personally. Q, 1 understood you to say that in biscuits and starch they exact from every body an agreement not to sell at prices lower than theirs ? A. Not the biscuit makers, only the starch. Q. You buy from the biscuit makers, and can sell at any price you like ? A. Any price we like, but the starch men ask that we shall not sell below their limit. Q. In regard to liquors mentioned a few minutes ago, I think I understood yoai to say that in Walker's whiskey there was an arrangement, Do you deal in liquors ?1 A. I do. Q. Do you buy from Walker? A. I do from his agent. Q. Are you obliged to sign an agreement that you will not sell below a oertaini price i* A. Yes, only in case lots. We can sell a bottle for wiiat we like. Q. Then Mr. Walker has an arrangement with wholesalers respecting the pricO'| at which they shall sell ? A. Yes, because you are obliged to sign an agreement] before you can get the goods. Q. Does he regulate the prices at which they are to sell? A. Only wholesale.^ If we come in amongst the wnolosalers, we have to sign their agreement, although we retailers Are amongst the wholesale trade in a great many of these things. SUQAB AND GBOCSRIBS. 8t Q. Anybody who would not keep to that agreement coald not get goods? A, No, he cannot get bis goods. By Mr, Landry : Q. Does that include liquors that are imported, as well as domestic ? A. Gin is in combination . By Mr. Fisher: Q. Is it a combination of importers? A. No, of ithe guild here. They import it through the agent. The agent acts here for them in most of these cases. Q. Are there any rival agents ? A. I really do not know. There [a only one agent, and the others do not compete. It is not the same as sogar. Granulated sugar has the same quality, no matter what you call it. Be Kuyper's gin, or Van Houghton's gin all stand on their merits. Q. All those in the same trade would have an agreement in that way. What would bo the good of one or more people combining? A. Nobody can get the goods unless they comply with the terms. They trade on their reputation. Mr. PisHEEi. — De Kuyper's gin has a reputation, and the man who wants that will not take any other ; the same with Walker's whiskey. House of Commons, Ottawa, 16th March, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the Chair. Walter Paul, retail grocer, Montreal, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. You are in the retail grocery business in Montreal ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any particular grievance with reference to this sugar combination ?' A. I think I have. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am what I consider one of the largest retail grocers in Montreal. I handle a large quantity of sugar, being an extensive retailer, and have been a regular buyer from the refiners for the last 9 or 10 years. I have constantly bougnt my sugar from the refiners and got it at the prices at which the refiners were selling it: I may here state that I was one of those who was honored by being put on the list of sugar buyers of the combine, and there- fore my rights were not interfered with until the month of December last. The combine so far as it existed did not affect me in any way at all until I was very much surprised when going to make a purchase at the Canada Sugar Refinery iu the month of December, that the price of sugar was so much, net cash. By Mr. Landry : Q. By whom ? A. By a salesman in the sugar refinery. I had always believed that the terms of the sugar refinery were simply as to quantity. By the Chairman : Q. You were prepared to buy sugar the same as usual ? A. Yes, and I asked the reason but he could give me no answer. He said my name was no longer on the list (Exhibit 1). He referred to our good friend Mr. Childs, who is hero tc-day. I went to Mj. Childs' office but he was not in. I then went to the office ol ihe Secretary of the Board of Trade of Montreal whose name was attached to the price list from week to week, to enquire of him the reason why my name had been struck off the list. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Who was the Secretary of the Board of Trade ? A. Mr. George Hadrill. I wrote him that evening the following letter ;— (Exhibit 21 A). "Montreal, 23rd December, 1887. " George Hadrill, Esq., " Secretary Montreal Board of Trade. " Dear Sir, —I was very much surprised to-day when calling at the office of the Canada Sugar Kefinery to learn that my name was no longer on the list of privileged 3—6 €2 WALTER PAUL. buyers of the Grocers' Aesooiation. I called at your office immediately thereafter to learn the reaeon but you were not in. Would you be good enough (without delay) to inform me by whose authority and for what offence I am subjected to such treat- ment without any notification whatever. Your prompt attention will oblige Yours truly, WALTER PAUL." I received from Mr. Hadrill the following reply : — (Exhibit 215). " Montreal, 23rd December, 1887. "Walter Paul, Esq., City: Dear Sir, — In reply to yours of yesterday's date inquiring the reason of the erasure of your name from the list of signers to the sugar agreement, permit me to assure you that it is for no reason particular to yourself, but simply in compliance with the terms of appended resolution of the Dominion Wholesale Grooers' Guild which orders that the agreement be confined to strictly wholesale houses, acting un- der which resolution the various grocers' associations in the Dominion have re- moved the names of all retailers from the sugar agreement. I am, dear sir, yours truly GEORGE HADRILL, Secretary. He sent a copy of the resolution which is as follows: — (Exhibit 21 C). " Resolution adopted at a meeting of Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild held at Kingston on 16th November, lb87." *' Resolved that the sugar combination be confined to strictly wholesale houses, and that local guilds be requested to erase from membership any retail house, being understood to mean any house selling direct to the consumer and that a new list be sent to refiners of those who are in the combination," I quite forget now, whether I had any occasion to buy sugar early in December or not, without referring to my books. At any rate, this resolution did not bear upon me until about that date, the 23rd December. Q. You knew that your name was on the privileged list before ? A. I did. Q. How did you get it there? A. I was Secretary of the Retail Grocers' As- aociation and they came several times after me to get my name, I never went to get my name on the list. Q. They came to you and you consented ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. When your name was put on the list were any conditions imposed upon you? A. The conditions were similar to those bearing upon all the members, but as those conditions were very easy I had no hesitation in allowing it to be put on the list. Q- Did you sign the agreement ? (Exhibits 4 and 22.) A. I did sign the agree- ment. Q. The sugar agreement ? A. Yes. Q, Did you subscribe to the Wholesale Grocers' Association ? A, No, I am not a member of that association . By the Chairman : Q. Did you sign that agreement ? A, Well, I could not say what agreement. Mr. Lightbound explained the agreement to me and said that the reason he had got my came was because he had understood that I had been a regular buyer from the refiners for such a long time that they wished my name to be put on as one of the regular customers. By Mr. Landry : Q. What were the particular advantages that you received ? Do you remem- ber ? A. I was not getting any more advantages than I had been getting already, «zoept that my rights were not to be interfered with and I was permitted to buy my sugar Just as usual. BVQAR AND GROCERIES. 83 By Mr. Guillet : Q. But your name is off the list now ? A. Yes. The loss in my business ^resulting from this sugar agreement will be nearly $1,000 a year, besides the very ■unpleasant thing of being compelled to buy sugar where I do not want to. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Did they send to you or notify you when they struck your name off the list? A. No. Q. They are in the habit of notifying parties ? A. They did not give any notice to me, at any rate. One of the members of the Montreal Guild called upon me and said he was sorry they had not sent me a notice. He said that they had taken my name off the list because it was very well understood that I was a retailer. I replied that it was so understood at the time that they put my name on the list; I was no more a retailer at one time than the other. By Mr. Guillet : Q Do you know whether the wholesalers sell direct to any large customers or not? A. No. I cannot say. They have been remonstrated with for doing so hitherto, but I do not know that they do it now. Q. Do they not supply sugar to the hotels, for instance ? A. I do not know, rbut I have reason to believe that strictly speaking the terms of this resolution are not 'being kept by members of the guild : " The retail houses being understood to mean any house selling direct to the consumer." I hold that the Windsor Hotel, the Grey Nunnery, the St. Lawrence Hall, the Turkish Bath, &c., and every place in fact where a large number of boarders are kept, are consumers in the strict sense of the word. By Mr. Landry : Q. Are they on the guild list ? A. No. I think proof could easily be got that they are buying direct from the guild. I do not ciare what price they pay, but it interferes with my business. Q. Have you any proof that any of these buy directly from the guild ? A. I say that these wholesale grocers are prohibited from selling direct to any consumer. By Mr. McKay : Q. But do they sell direct to these hotels and other large consumers ? A. I ive reason to believe that they do. Q. Do you know that they do ? A. That could be easily ascertained. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do the guild sell direct to those who want sugar for refreshment saloons on the railways ? A. I do not know. Q. But they buy largely for their supply between Montreal and Toronto do they lot ? A. They may, I do not know. Q. How about the steamboats ? A. I could not say. By Mr. McKay : Q. Do you know that they are doing this ? A, I have been told that they are. Q. But you do not know, it is only hearsay ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q, Do 1 understand that you object to the wholesale people selling direct to the class of people that you refer to ? A. I say it is a direct violation of their -own resolution. Q. Do you object to that ? 'A. I certainly do. They are not keeping their own resolution. By the Chairman : Q. They then became both wholesalers and retailers ? A. They may say that they sell a large quantity but I have no objection to have the sale established on the quantity basis. I quite agree that the retailer should be able to purchase sugar ■direct from the refiners, provided that he ean buy a certain quantity at a time. I hold that the refiners should be allowed to say that, " we will sell to any party pro- vided that he will take so many barrels," but 1 do object to be prohibited from buy- 3-6i 84 WALTER PAUL. 1 ing sugar from the refiners, no matter what quantity I may wish to purchase simply becauho I am a retailer. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Do you approve of the establishment of the general principle of dividing trade between the wholesale class and the retail class ? A. I am strongly in favor of freedom of businees, of the survival of the fittest. Q. Is it your grievance that you complain of, that the arrangement exists be- tween the wholesale grocers and the refiners, the arrangement whioh exists at the present time? A. I do not quite understand that question. Q. Do you complain of the terms of this arrangement or do you think that no arrangement should exist ? A. I think that no arrangement should exist. Q. No arrangement? A. None at all, unless on a quantity basis. Q. You would approve then of a quantity basis ? A. Yes, but not one bein, called a wholeyaler and another a retailer. I make bold to say that I handle mo: sugar myself as a retailer than a number of the so-called wholesalers. Q. Then do you approve of grocers making an arrangement to govern their own business ? A. I cannot say that I do. I do not believe in combinations or agreements of any kind. Of conree, I am speaking from the refiner's standpoint. If the wholsalo grocers choose to say to the refiners " you are not to sell to the retail grocers," I think it is quite right that the wholesale grocers should be protected by allmanufac- turers, but I think at the same time, that the manufacturers should say to them that " we will not sell to the retail grocers unless they take a certain quantity," not because that the one is a wholesaler and the other a retailer, but because you can take a sufficient quantity at one time. Q. You approve of an arrangement of that kind existing? A. Yes. Q. And you assented to an arrangement of that kind when you first joined the guild ? A. Although I signed the agreement, it was simply because it did not interfere with my right and did not stop my buying sugar from the refiners. I have been taunted that I was on the guild list. There is not a man in the guild or not in the guild, in Montreal, that 1 suppose ever approved of it on principle. For my own part, I never approved of it. Q. That arrangement did not interfere with your business, as I understand it? A. No, not while I was allowed to buy from the refiners. While my name was on the list I was placed just where I had always been. Q. But the present arrangement is a loss to you personally ? A. Yes, I con- sider that it is a loss to me of nearly $1,000 a year, besides being obliged to buy sugar whether I like it or not. Q. The loss does not come out of the consumer, but out of you ? A. Out of me. Q. It does not affect the general consumer ? A. Not so much. By Mr. McKay ; Q. You do not object to the principle of a large buyer getting a more favorabli rate than a small buyer? A. I do not. Q. You think that if a man can buy a large quantity at one time, he should the advantage of a cheaper rate ? A. Yes ; I do. Q. And a man who only buys a small quantity should pay more? A. Yes. he cannot buy a large quantity, the same as his neighbor, he should pay more. Th: has the effect of preventing unwholesome competition in the way of little corni groceries. By the Chairman : Q. You are not prevented from buyingjsugar at the refinery. A. No ; but I ai prevented from buying sugar on the privileged terms. Q. On the privileged terms ? A. Yes. Q. What are the terms? A. Those inside get 2^ per cent, disoonnt, whi! those outside pay one-quarter of a cent or oue-eighth of a cent, I think it is no more and are allowed no discount. Q. Those are the better terms ? A. Those are the better terms. SUGAR AND GROCERIES. ^ . 85 Q. You say that makes a diflference to you of $1,000 a year. What quantity of sugar do you sell in a year? A. My books will hhow. I know that my discounts are about $70 to $80 per month, that is, on the basis of the ditference of one-eighth of a cent. I think my book-keeper told me about $S00. With a difference of one- quarter of a cent it would amount to over $1,000 a year. By Mr. Landry : Q. flow many barrels of sugar would that mean ? A. We get through pretty nearly 100 barrels a month. Q. That would be about 1,200 barrels a year? A. My consumption of sugar is very largely granulated. Q. There is upwards of 80 cents per barrel of a difference ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain {Soulanges) : Q. Were you not one of a depatation that called on the wholesale grocers and asked them to come to some arrangement? A. When I was a member of the retail association I was asked to give a sort of weight to a deputation which waited on the wholesale grocers. The Betail Grocers' Association of Montreal made complaint that wholesale people were selling caddies of tea The Chairman. — Please answer the question. Witness. — I was one of a deputation. Mr. McKay : Q. That objected to wholesale merchants selling to customers which I believe they were in the habit of doing? A. Yes, they did. 1, individually, did not ob- _ject but was asked to form one of a deputation that waited on them. X By the Chairman : k Q. You have to pay a higher price for your sugar now, have you not? A. I rluive to pay the same price as anyone else outside of the guild. Q. At a higher price than the privileged class ? A. Yes ; three-eighths of a cent 'higher. Q. Do you sell at the same price or do you advaoee the price ? A.I sell at the same price. Q. That $1,000 comes out of you individually does it? A. Yes; out of me individually. I Q. Do yonr customers lose anything on this? A. The price of sugar is cut so much that the customers do not lose very much. Q. But the loss is divided between you and the customers ? A. Yes. Q. You part and the customers the other part ? A. Yes. Q. But do you think that it does either you or the customers any good to have this combination in existence ? A. Ob, no ; it does harm to us both. Q. It does harm to them ? A. Yes. By Mr. Landry : Q. Who profits by the agreement, wholesale dealers or the refiners ? A. The ^wholesale dealers profit by it. I cannot say that the refiners make scything out of it at all, I consider it a very great mistake that the refiners entered into such an agreement with the wholesalers at all. Q. You named a lot of people, a while ago, you thought should he included in this resolution as parties who ought not to be allowed to buy ? A. I mean to say that these institutions were still buying from the wholesale houses, and the whole- salers were not following the terms of this agreement. Q. Don't you think that, reading this strictly, the names should be erased from 'the membership, that is of the men in the wholesale business selling direct to 'Oonsumers ? A. I consider that the Grey Nunnery in Montreal are not retailers. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You complain that wholesalers who sell to these institutions are selling to the consumers ? A. Yes. They should follow the terms of the resolution. Q. I wish to ask one or two questions. I understood you to say that you had paid the refiners a higher price than those within the guild ? A. Yes, 86 WALTER PA PL. Q. Are you aware that when you were in the guild the price at which you sold was limited by the agreement (Exhibit 4) — whon you eigned that sugar agreement you were bound as to the prices at which you should sell ? A. Yes, 1 was bound to the prices in this resolution, tut it was very easily cut by the retailers. Q. That part didn't interfere ? A. I had no difficulty as far as signing that agreement goes. I didn't care to sell sugar by the pound at a lower price than the guild would sell 15 barrels. Q. Your being within the agreement didn't make any difference as to the price at which your customers got their sugar ? A. No, unless they took it by the barrel. Q. If you did that you did live up to that agreement? A. I was obliged to be careful not to sell a barrel of sugar cheaper than the agreement. Q. Or higher ? A. I didn't understand anything of the kind, the charge could be as high as you like. I thought it was a strange thing that I should have been cut off that list without any notice. I understood that anyone cut off the guild had to be given two months' notice, but I was cut off without two minutes' notice. Q. That guild is practically an arbitrary association, — they decide who shall get certain privileges and who shall not ? A. They dictate to the refiners, . Q. Suppose the refiners were to refuse to agree to that, where would the harm * come to the refiners you speak of? A. If they refuse to agree to the guild's terms, I do not see that any possible harm could come to the refiners. The refiners can sell their sugar, it is simply a question of .distribution. The whole guild could not be kept together unless the refiners were a party to it, Q. The refiners have it in their power at any time to break up that guild ? A* They can break up that guild to-morrow morning by saying, " we will sell to whom we like." Q. Can you give me any reason why these refiners keep in that guild? A. I don't think that they have any profit. I cannot. The Chairman. We have been asking that of others, but they could not possibly have any knowledge of it. Mr. Fisher. He applied to the refinery to give him sugar oij the same terms he got it at when he was in the guild, and it was refused to him. Q. The reason given to you that you could not get that sugar was that you are no longer on the list ? A. Yes. Q. The price lists that were supplied were signed by Mr. Hadrill, Secretary of the Board of Trade in Montreal. Did he sign this officially as Secretary of the Board of Trade. A. The wholesale grocers' office was the Board of Trade. Q. Do you know whether there is any connection between the wholesale grocers- and the Board of Trade of Montreal ? A. They are affiliated. Q. The Secretary of the Board of Trade is also Secretary of the Wholesale Grocers' Association ? A. I don't think he is. He does not say so in his circular,, it is sent from the offices of the Board of Trade. By Mr. Bain {Soulanges) : Q. What profit do yon consider the wholesale grocers make off the retailers on white and yellow sugars ? A. I have no knowledge. 1 know there is a profit cer- tainly of one-qaarter of a cent clear to them. What extra profit they clear I have no means of knowing and have no right to inquire. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There is a difference in the discount ? A. Yes ; they get 2^ and give 1^. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Are ycu a member of the Betail Association or Guild ? A. No, I was, but. am not now. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Are you obliged to get your sugar from one refinery? A. There is only one refinery there now. Q. Did you see whether you could get it any lower at Monoton ? A. I enquired of the agent at Montreal, and the prices were the same. Of course you cannot buy anything lees than a carload. The fact is, that early in the season when one of oar SUGAB AND GBOCERIES. 8T refineries was destroyed by fire you were obliged to take from the Canada Sugar Refinery Company what BDgar you could get. They were glad just to give every ) erson only as much sugar as would keep him going. Q. What quantity makes up a carload ? A. I think about 80 barrels. By Mr. Boyle : Q, You think it a grievance that the wholesale trade shall sell direct to any con- sumer ? A, I think it is not fair, but I have no personal complaint. I know my customers have told me that they could get their tea wholesale, and I have told them that I could sell it to them as cheap as they could get it wholesale. One likes to be above complaining of the way any other one does his business. A large number of retailers however have complained. Q. You think it wrong that the wholesale trade should sell \o large consumers? A, In ordinary business I do not think so, I would not. Q. Why should not the wholesale association have the same privilege of selling to large consumers that the refiners had of selling to large retailers ? A. They should not do a thing and then say I must not do it. By the Chairman : Q. That is a dispute between the grocers' guild and the retailers' with which the committee has nothing to do. He claims they have excluded him and left in persons who are doing the same thing ? A. I think that resolution is framed in such a way as not to show its true meaning. They are violating it and do not know it. Hotels are consumers, just as much so as a wife and family. By Mr. Wood: Q. But I understand that you are not a member of the Retail Grocers' Association ? A. I was, but I am not now. I could not attend their meetings and have not been there for some time. Q. Did you join voluntarily ? A. I did not see what good they dene, and my time was so precious I could not attend any of their meetings. Q. I have been requested to ask you whether you were one of a deputation who went to the Wholesale Grocers' Guild and protested against them? A. 1 was there, as I answered to another gentleman. I was asked to go but it was not at my own suggestion. Q. Of course you considered you have no more right to make any suggestion to regulate their trade than you say they hav6 to regulate yours ? A. 1 do not think I have. By Mr. McKay : Q. You spoke about the difficulty in getting sugar at the time of the St. Law- rence refinery fire. Do you know it to be a fact, that there was a difficulty in the refinery supplying sugar ? A.I knew that the refinery was doing its best to fill all orders. I was never refused sugar, but I want to say that if a man had wanted 100 barrels and a stipulation had been made that he would not take any less than 100 barrels, it would have been impossible for the Canada Sugar Refinery Company to have filled his order, Q, What is your complaint in that connection ? A. I have no complaint; but I said we were all obliged to buy from one refinery, and we had to bear with it. Q. They supplied you with all you wanted ? A. Yes ; but supj osinsr the quan- tity had been 50 barrels, and that no one would have been allowed to take less, he could not have got 50 barrels. Q. That is your own trouble then? A. No, I say the refiners should be allowed to sell to anybody they think fit, but I do not think they have the right to have a list handed to them by the Wholesale Grocers' Guild who say to them, " you must sell to these men on special terms ;" particularly, as I am told that this resolu- tion did not emanate from Montreal but came from Ontario, from Toronto, and it was very natural for me to object to members of the Toronto Guild putting their loot on my neck. 88 QEOBOE OHILDS. George Childs feworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your Lame ? A. George Childs. Q. Eesidence ? A. Montreal . Q. Occupation? A. Grocer. Q. Are you a monber of the Wiiolesale Grocers' Association of Montreal? A. I am, sir. Q. Have you made an arrangement with the sugar refiners as to the sale of sugar? A. Mr. Chairman, if you allow me to say this: Byway of preface, there are several members ut the guild here, and I have been asked to make a general statement, and 1 think it would save time if you would hear my statement and what they would say would be but a repetition of what I would say, and I wish to lay the whole circumstances and facts. I thiok you could get at the facts quicker in this than by examining a dozen witnesses. It gives me great pleasure to be present this morning for this reason : I think no question of commerce has been so disgraced or 80 unfairly treated in the papers as this in reference to the sugar question, and when the question came up that this Committee had been appointed I thought that is the proper thing to do. Get all the facts on both sides and if the guild are engaged in Any illegal act, why, we should like to know it. Our object was to protect ourselves against losses. Wo are charged with being a secret society. Q. I think that is pretty wide of the object for which this Committee has been called? A. As a matter of fact we have been charged with being robbers, highway ones, pickpockets and blackmailers and other complimentary names; but I may say without any reference to the guild itself that up to about 1883 the wholesale grocery business had really become demoralized by the cutting of prices. Q. Are you referring to Montreal? A. lam referring to Montreal and the who e Province of Ontario. Q Do you know of any wholesale grocer in Toronto who became bankrupt in all those years ? A. 1 am not prepared to say. Q. Could you name one. You say the whole busincf^s was demoralized, now could you name one in Toronto ? A. I cannot, but in a general way business had become demoralized and unprofitable. Therefore we organized lor the purpose of protecting ourselves ; if I am allowed to read the preamble of our Guild constitution it will perhaps explain. The preamble is this "The necessity for co operatic i and the benefits of reciprocal exchange of opinion," &c. (Exhibit 7.) Q. 1 must proieet against the general organization of the Wholesale Grocers' Association being gone into; we are not enquiring into that at all. It is simply the sugar agreement ? A. The public and the papers have. Q. iilot the formation of the Wholesale Grocers' Association for legitimate pur- poses. It is that they have gone beyond that, and this sugar agreement embodies the particulars of the charge that has been made. We are not enquiring as to the forma- tion of an asHOcialion for legitimate purposes. Mr. Wo )D (Westmoreland). — I think we ought to have some knowledge of what the character of the association is. The Chaibman. — Let him put in the constitution Mr. McKay.— We had some witnesses before this Committee who came to oppose the so-called combine between the wholesale grocers and refiners. They were not checked in any way. They stood there and went on with their evidence until they were through and uo objections were made. I think this Committee was formed for getting evidence on both sides. The Chairman. — This is no evidence. Mr. MoKat.— -I think we bhould treat both sides fairly. I have listened to the statements on the other side and am prepared to sit here and listen to the other also. The Chairman. — You seem to have forgotten the unanimous decision of this Committee to-day. We are confining ourselves strictly to the question. Mr. Childs has gone beyond, in his statements, any gentlemen who has been before the Com- mittee. He is going into a general diesertatiou of the Grocers' Association. SUGAR AND GBOCERIES. 89 Mr. Childs. — I think I am the first who has appeared before you from the Wholesale Grocers' AseociatioD. The Chairman. — Mr. Childs will confine himself as much as possible to the ques- tion that is up. Mr. Ch[lds. — We merely claim in justice that oar case may be placed fairly before you, and if you will allow me to proceed you will get through quicker. As regards the arrangement, I may say that the organization was not for the purpose of advancing the pricec, but regulating thom. For instance, the trade had got into the way of selling goods at aO days, 3 per cent. off. Then this three per By Mr. Landry : ^^ Q. It is a matter oi coincidence that they are in the habit of having the same rates of discount ? A. Yes. 122 SBOAB A. WILLS. Q. It is a coincidence that is pretty general, is it not? There are very few exceptions among the bankers. They generally take the same rates of dipconnt ? A. That is too deep a question for me to go into. I have never had occasion to apply to the bankers myself. Q. You know there is no arrangement among them ? You must have had some knowledge ? A. As far as the bankers' section of the Board of Trade goes there is no arrangement. By Mr. Fi&her : Q. You are secretary of the Millers' Wholesale Section, have you an arrange- ment as to their prices and sales ? A. There is no arrangememt as to their prices and sales ; they desire to get as low rates for transports as they can. Q. That is the whole object of their association ? A. I don't know that it is the object of their association. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. The Oatmeal Association entrust their case in your hands ? A. No. Q. That is the head centre of the organization? Ai I don't know. Q. Are they affiliated with the Toronto Board of Trade ? A. No. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you any connection with the Underwriters' Association ? A. No. W. B. Clay, retail grocer, Gault, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. You have heard all the evidence given to-day ? A. Yes. I can reiterate what Mr. Gillard has said as far as the selling of sugars is concerned, but, living in the country, I probably get a little more. Of course the retail grocers in the c'^ties have & better chance to keep ahead of things aud find out what sugars are going at than we in the country have. However, we in the country often eee travellers, and of course the first thing is " what is granulated ?" That is the first question we usually ask. I have been quoted 5 or 6 cents less than I have bought sugar at. This was alter I bought the sugar and it made me feel very sick. On the 10th March last year there were four grocery travellers in our town. I was quoted granulated sugars at 6J. I was after waids quoted at 6*20 and another traveller came in after I had bought it at 6'10 and quoted it to me 20 barrels of granulated at 6. Now, that is demoralizing to the wholesaler as well as the retailer. 1 saved 50 cents a barrel and I could not divide into $18 packages or 32 half dollar packages and give the people the benefit of it. Q. You made $9 on that transaction ? A. Yes. Q. You don't line to do so ? A. I don't. It is demoralizing to the trade, it gives me a chance of under-selling my neighbor. Then there is another leading thing — we don't know whether we are paying too much or too little in the country. New that has not been only once or twice that I have been in the same fix. Sometimes I have bought and I have been sorry for it, although I have never kicked, but as we say amongst our trade, we felt sick, so that I thoroughly endorse all that Mr. Gillard has said. We were just in the same way with tobaccos when there was no set point. Q. You will be pleased to have the same rule fixed on every article of groceries that you purchase — the price fixed ? A. Well, I don't know that I would go as far AS saying that. Q. Why not if a good thing ? A. Yes, it might be a good thing. I have been in businC'S lor nearly 36 years in this country and in the old country, and this has been the trouble all through my career as a grocer. Q. Have you made a little more profit on your sugar this year ? A.I say dia- lanctly not because 50 cents a barrel is no increase in $18 or $36 worth made up in quarter dollar packages. Q. You benefited yourself? A. Decidedly, I object to having uniform price. I am not prepared to say how much the wholesaler should make out of it. I verily believe the refiners could not handle it. They would have difficulty in getting it from Jfontreal. The question is whether the wholesale trade should get any profit or not. SUGAR AND QROCKBEES. 123^ Q. You were looking out for the interest of the wholesale trade? A. I am looking at it from a business, fair and square standpoint. I believe in the system. The fact is that I bought these sugars I speak of in the morning and could have bought them at 5 cents less in the afternoon. By Mr. Guillet ; Q. Don't you think that the competition is legitimate ? A.I think it is. Q. It wasn't dishonest ? A. In this case I don't know whether it was or not. Q. Have you succeeded pretty well in your business ? A. Probaby sometimes I have and sometimes I haven't. I have been unfortunate in business I will admit, but at the present time I am doing about as well as most of the retail grocers. By Mr. Bain {WeniwortK): Q. I don't understand where it hurts you if you bought this sugar at 6*10 ? A. It may leave monev in my pocket but it shows a demoralizing influence. By Mr, McKay : H^ Q. Some other men who accepted the first offer of 6*25 might suffer by com- peting with you ? A.I know that sugars were sold that morning in my town at 6*25. By Mr. Bain (JVeniicortK) : Q. In that case there would be one of two things : You selling at a lower rate and makiui^ thu same profit or the other men had to sell at tho same rate and make less profit? A. This system of getting sugars is pretty well gone. Q. I am speaking of this specific case whether you gain ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Where was it you bought this sugar? A. In Toronto. I had a Hamilton man and a Toronto man in my place of business that morning. Q. Do you know of your own knowledge if the man who sold it at 6* 10 wasn't making a profit ? A. To the best of my knowledge it could not be laid down from the refinery . Q. Do you know what he bought it for ? A. I could not say. Q. How can you tell ? A. I have a list of purchases made by flobertson, of Montreal, on these same days. Q. It shows that probably it could be delivered at 6-10 at a profit? A. I believe it would cost about 6*17 laid down in Toronto on these dates, Q. Do you know the discount they get ? A . 1 have heard . Q. What did they sieil A. 2^ per cent I think. Q. What did yoa get? A. IJ percent, in 16 days. I have good reason to believe that sugar cost that house on that day, from remarks that I heard afterwards, 6. 17 and they positively lost 7 cents a 100 on that sugar. By Mr. Bain ( Went worth) : Q. How did thai affect your irade ? A. Well, it would not affect my trade ex- cept as far as the system of having a set price on sugar. I believe in the principle of it. Q. I understand that the evidence you are offering is as to how it affected your business. We are not asking: you for information about the wholesalers' business? A. Well, the effect on the trade is this: if I buy 15 barrels of sugar and my neighbor buys 15 barrels of sugar and I know he does not get his sugar cheaper than I do and il he is selling cheaper I know there is something wrong somewhere. By the Chairman : Q. He may buy sugar cheaper than you or dearer than you. the only thing ia they cannot buy on the same date then at the same price ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( WentwMh) : Q . Or he may be doing a larger business ? A. Yes, of course the trade in tho country , however, where there is no one who buys more than 15 barrels down. I have dealt largely in car loads of sugar some three or four years ago, but if I buy sugar at (i.20 and another man bays at 6.25 that is where the difference comes in. By the Chairman : Q. You are grumbling about it ? A. I am not grumbling about it. I am merely speaking that I am satisfied with the system of having a line of goods like that so 124 PATRICK BASKERVILLK. that there would be only one price and there is not that feeling that every one is buying goods cheaper than you. By Mr. Quillet : Q Would it not be a good thing if the retailers would combine to regulate the prices? A. Yea* By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. That is you would have a uniform profit and no competition if that could bo guaranteed ? A. If it was fixed. The retailer is suffering a very great loss selling engar. Q. In your experience there was always cutting ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Can you explain why it is that the dealers should continue to sell sugar at these ruinoas rates ? A. I cannot tell you why. I only know it is done. Q. You don't know why you did so yourself? A. I can give you an explanation of that. For instance, if a man starts in a place and the first thing he does would be to give an extra pound of sugar, then something has got to be done . Q. Is it a fact that you cannot carry on the grocery trade without having sugar? A. We cannot, sir, we have to have sugar* House op Commons, Wednesday, 28th March, 1888, The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met at 11.15 . In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Guillet presided. Patbick BASKEaviLLE, of the firm of Baskerville Bros., sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation ? A. Grocer. Q. You are a member of the Grrooers' Guild ? A. We were for a while, but not at present. Q. Your name was struck off the list? A. Yes. Q How were you informed of that? A. I think we had no intimation. Q. Are you in the wholesale business ? A. Yes. Q. Are you in the retail business as well ? A. No, we are giving up the retail business. Q. Do you conduct your retail and your wholesale business altogether in one establishment? A. Yes, partly; we kept our office in the retail establishment where we keep our books for the last fi^e or six years. Q. Your business was chiefly wholesale? A. Yes, chiefly wholesale. Q. Has it been an injury to your business to be deprived of the right to purchi sugar at the refinery? A. Yes, it has been an injary. To continue our wholesale business we could not get along without it. Q. Did you write to the refinery for goods and endeavor to obtain goods at th« refinery since ? A. Yes. Q. With what result ? A. I don't know whether it was by letter or verbal oonvei sation I had with the secretary of the refinery, they said that we could not get goc " on account of the name being taken off the guild. It seems we belong to the Kin^ ton branch of the guild. I was not in Ottawa at the time. It was one of the fin that bignod that time. He believed that it was in order to carry out the unifori f>rices, ihat there would be no cutting or deception. There had been cutting in thi eading articles, and this ho understood would keep the price among the trade, annttothing of that kind ? A. It is better lard and clearer and brighter and purer than Canadian lari. Q. You spoke about prices being the same as Canadian lard ? A. Yes, I am epe&king of lard in small quantities. I don't know about barrel lard, because I don't handle it. By Mr. Bain ( WeniworiK) : Q. Yt'U handle it in packages for family use ? A. Yes. By Mr. McKay : Q. Do you know if the Americans have any ingredient whioh they use to make this lard whiter ? A. I don't know that Q. You don't know that ? A. I don't know that. I know that they have had the immenee haul on the Canadian market for lard for many years. By Mr Bain ( Wentworih) : Q. 1 would 1 ke to ask what he would suggest as a remedy for this difficulty ? A. For combines? Q. For the prices of biscuit ? A. The breaking up of the combine could be done. Q. How ? A. I could not say. You can declare a conspiracy ? Q. I was asking you how it struck you ? A. Oh, I have been thinking of it myself. By the Chairman : Q. Dj you think it is injurious to the interest of the country ? A. I do, indeed, I think it is taking away the spirit of the National Policy. By Mr. Bain (Went worth) : Q. I suppose as a matter of fact, as a thinking man, that when you met with this difficulty in yoor business that you would turn your mind in the direction as how to remedy it ? A. Yes. I have been thinkim? over it. 1 confess it is a diffi- cult question. You, gentlemen, may have been giving it more thought than I have. "Whether it is in tbe province of Pari amen t to deal with it and declare it illegal, I -cannot say. I am not a lawyer, but it doen seem to me that it is conspiracy, both the sugar combine and this combine, and all combines. I know the manufacturers oi certain articles come up here and badgering the Government to get pro.octivo dutien, to a certain extent, and they get that, and when they got that they will say : We have this thing, and it is going to pay, and we might just as well make a good thing out of it, and combine, and the prices will be so and ho. I imagine, as one who has given some thought to the good of Canada and the National Policy, know- ing the intention of the policy to benefit the country generally, and benefitting all ooncerned, the labor market and everything else, and not benefiting any particaiar monopoly. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. I wanted to get at what you thought any thoughtful man would think would be the practical remedy? A. Of course when it goes beyond the legitimate competition and goods are sold under cost this is not a good thing, but there shoald not be combinations as everybody wants to get goods as cheap as he can. BUQAB AND GROCERIES. 137 By Mr. Guillet: Q. On the other side of the line, in New York Stale, is there a combination in biscnilB ? A. T do not think so. Q. Although they have a high protective tariff? A. From meeting with leading manufacturers i t-hould think not. Sometimes the prices of one are not the same as the prices of another. By Mr. McKay: Q. Do you know ot any combination in the old country ? A. It is a long timft since I have been there but I do not think so. Q. I mean a grocers' guild or association ? A. As far as I know it is active healthy competition. By the Chairman : Q. Do you not know that in the old country goods such as Crosse & Blackwell'* pickle^^, that thej- have fixed the prices at which ibey Pell them and the prices below which you shall not sell? A. I am an importer of those goods but you cannot call that a combination. Q. It is fixing the prices? A. You see Crosse & Blackwell's list is fixed ia London. Their price is not regulated by any other house and there are scores q€ manufacturers of pickles. Q. But they decide not only the price at which they shall sell but also at which you shall sell ? A, When the Oo-operative Supply Association was in operation thaj* happened to cut on the article of Crosse & Blackwell's pickles which has had a steady price. No matter how much you imported they undertook to sell ihem at less than cost, to the very great annojance of the manufacturer and the trade. There is only one Crosse & Blackweil's pickles, and retailers and whole- salers said that there was no use in bothering with these pickles. The profit ia never very large and Crosse & Blackwell arranged that these goods shall not ba sold below cost. The adv^ance Ik very small ; for instance they cost from 52.85 to $ i.90 depending on the rate of freight, and the price that they stipulate that you are not to sell them less than is $3.15. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You can buy good Canadian pickles for less than $2.00? A. You can buy lots of them ani imi-orted ones too. By Mr. Bam ( Wentworth) : Q. Then there is no compulsion. You have only to quit using Crosse & Black- well's pickles ? A. It is not an analogous case at all. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You can tak« it or leave it ? A Yes. W. C. Gibson, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Stale your came, occupation and address ? A. The name of the firm ia W, C. Gribson & Son, Ottawa. Q. You are biscuit manufacturers ?^5A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you in the combination of manufacturers in connection with thia business? A. Yep, sir. Q. When was that combination formed ? A.I cannot lell you when it w*a formed; we have belonged to it about sis. years. By Mr. Guillet : Q. When did you establish your business ? A. We have been in the business for 25 years We were in the baking business 3U years ago. We have been perhapi 20 years in the biscuit business; may be a little more Q. It ia 6 years since you joined this arrangement ? A. About 6 years. 138 W. C. GIBSON. Q. Whore is the combination's headquarters ? A. Toronto is where they have their meotiogs. Q. lb it an incorporated company? A. I do not think that they ato. We Jbave never signed any document or deposited anything. Q. Havo you a constitation or rules of agreement? A. We have a liltlo book 4of rules iBHued eome years ago, but I never read it closely. Q. Have you a copy here? A . No, sir. Q. What are the objects of your association? A. I think one of the principal objects wan to keep up a standard article of goods ; to make a good article and keep them UDiiorm. Q. Is it biscuit makers or biscuit makers and confectioners ? A. Biscuits alone. Q. Do you deal in confectionery? A. Yes, we deal in tbem, but do not make tliem. There is a combination in the confectionery business also. Q. They have a separate organization ? A. Yes. Q. Some men making both will of course be in both combinations? A. Yes. Q. You only make biscuits? A. That is all. <4. One of the objects is to make a better article ? A. Yes; I think that is the principal object. Q. Another object is to regulate prices? A. Yes; to regulate prices. Q. Who does that? A. It is agreed upon at the meetings when they meet. Q. \ ou have an annual meeting ? A. Yes, and oftener than that. Q. Have yoa an executive committee to regulate these matters? A. Yes. TThey do not have a regular time of meeting, they call 9 meeting if stocks should go ap or down. Q. Where do yon meet? A. Toronto every time that I have met with them. i^. It bvB been staled that prices have not changed in 4 years ; that the price remains about the same ? A. They have been changed because I remember being at a meeting when the principal business was to see if we could lower the biscuits, aeod they weie lowered. Q. That is soda biscuits ? A. Yes. Q Have you made any special changes in the whole list? A. Yes, soda bis- cmitB seem to rule the rest, as it is the principal article. Q. What do you sell these three pound boxes for now? A. 20 cents. Q. 20 cents delivered ? A. Wo deliver them round the city. We t-hip them for ihtiX but do not pay the freight. Q. Is anyone permitted to pay the freight ? A. No sir. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. That is 2u cents lor the box, not per pound ? A, No; 20 cents for a three pound box. 'Ihat is to storekeepers. Wholesale men get a discount oft' that ; a Mnall aiscouiit. By the Chairman : Q. How much ? A. Sometimes we sell tbem for 19 cents. We can hardly afford it but we have to do it, Wo do not like to sell many of them to the whole- sale dealers as there is not much in that. Q, What is the coat of the box ? A. The box and label cost nearly three cents* Very cloce to that. Q. Jdow ntar? A. Well it is to near that we call it three cents. I have figured it out but it is just as near three cents as we can get it; the box and band tiiat goes n nnd it. Q. Who aie in this agreement? A. There are a couple of Montreal iSrms. Q. Do 3'ou know their names ? A. The Montreal Biscuit Company and the liSng Manufacturiiig Company; Christie, of Toronto; Abbot, Brant and istwell, of ISrockviile ; Crotbers, of Kingston ; (iardner, of Kingston. Q. Are tbebe all ? A. ^io ; there are some more. There is a party up in Col- iingwood. Q Who is that? A. I forget the name. Q. Is McLaughlin, of Owen Sound, in ? A« Yea ; bat there is another in Colling- 'Vood. Telfor Bros;, is the name. SUQAR AND GROCERIES. 139- Q. And Owen Sound ? A. I think it is McLaughlin. There are a good many that are not in it. Q. Is that ihe whole list of memhers ? A. Yes ; that is ahoot all. By Mr. McKay : Q. Is Het^sin of Toronto in ? A. He oped to be, Q. Are there any from London ? A. Yee; the McCormacfc Company and Perrin, Q. Anybody from Bran tford and Woodstock ? A. There is from Brantford— Paterson. They accuse me very much of not being a regular attendant. Q. Is Paterson, of Hamilton, in it? A. I hardly think he i^. Paterson from Brantlbrd is in. Q. Is Chillman in ? A. I have not heard the name. Q. Do you know of any firms not in it ; I mean any of the large firms ? A. Yes ; there is a firm in Hamilton that J have heard was not in, but there are two or three firms in Montreal and one at Dandce and another at Lancaster and several in the west, but I do not know their names. Q The one at Lancastei: would be small ? A, Not large ; but they have been Id busicess a long time. Q^ Were they asked to join ? A. I do not know whether they were ever asked. Q. Do they make as large an assortment as the others ? A. I do not know^ whether the Lancaster man makes as large an assortment as some of the others, but I remember him in the trade 25 years ago. Q, What is your capacity ? A. We generally make soda biscuits in the after- noon. We run 10 barrels of flour in the afternoon . We could make more. Wo run sweet biscuits in ihe forenoon. Q. You have improved machinery ? A. Yes ; we run sweet biscuits in the forenoon. We always set cur sponges and lun sodas in the afterno*»n. Q. You run about 10 barrels of flour into ^odas in the afternoon ? A. Yes. Q. What quality of flour do you uee ? A. We use the best patent flour that we can get from white fall wheat. The millers know how to make it.. Sometimes they put a mixture in it. By Mr. Bain ( Wenlworlh) : Q. Where do you get your lard ? A, We sometimes buy from Toronto and sometimes from Chicago ; not much from Chicago. hy Mr. McKay: Q. You buy quite a little from Chicago? A. A little, but the duties are against us, Q. Do you find it pure ? A. I do not think it is pure. They call it refined lard. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is the difference when it is not pure ? A. I do not know how they manufacture it but they seem to take the oil out and I have heard that they put this cotton peed oil in the p aco of this pure larJ oil, Q. When it is not the pure quality how does it affect the biscuits? A. The bis- cuit does not seem to be t-o short and crisp. Q. Can you notice the difference in the handling of the larJ. Is it slower ta dissolve or what is the peculiarity ? A. I have not worked much on it in late years, but our foreman has found fault with it and said it would not keep as well if it was not used ^o soon. It does not make them quite so crisp. Q. Usually it is not more stubborn in handling? A. Wo, Q. flow much lard do you use in the afternoon to your 10 barrels of flour? A. That belongs to the trade, but we use 25 pounds of lard to the barrel. Q. How does the price of Canadian lard and American compare ? A. There is not much difference. This li cents per pound duty makes a big difference. Q. Sometimes you can buy it cheaper? A. Yes, but I think it is not as pure* When we get it here there is not much difference in the price. Q. As a rule Canadian lard rates abDut as much higher as the duty ? A. Yes, about that. Q. What proportion of the cost does the lard bear, that is approximately to the «OBt of the rest of the material ? A. We use about 25 pounds to the barrel. 140 w. c. aiBSDN. Q. It would form more of the relative value? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What weight of soda biscuit do you make out of a barrel of flour? A. Is al lowed to make about the same. Wo never figure oa more when you take oat the waste. Q. You mean the weightof the flour and the weight of the lard together? A. Yes, Q. If you have 200 pounds of flour and 25 pounds of lard you get 225 pounds of ^biscuits ? A. I have often weighed it and it comes out about that. There is a little loss for weight. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) • Q, You have a certain amount; of loss in breaking? A. Yes. Q. But you are able to take out 225 pounds ? A. I do not think it would go any more. Q. Did you sign any agreement about prices ? A. There was a matter of honor. I never signed any agreement, but my son sigqed this agreement when he joined the association. We agreed on prices. I never signed any but my son signed for the lirm. As a matter of honor we are supposed to sell at the one price. The greatest object is to keep up the quality of biscuits. By the Chairman : Q. How docs that regulate or prevent that ? A. They are not allowed to make an inferior or poor quality of soda biscuit without having them examined. Q. My experience is people always ask for the best soda biscuits ? A. Yes, I think they sell more in having ihcm good. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What is the price of the flour now that you use ? A. Flour is about $4.50 and perhaps a little more. For cash we buy pretty close. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What rule is there in your association that makes you keep up the quality of biscuits; is there any rule as to the details as to how much you put in, and the quality of the flour you use ? A. Well, no ; I never hear of any question as to that, Q. How does your association keep up the quality of biscuits ? A. Thoy are judges of biscuits, and we sometimes take biscuits and compare them. Q. Is there any regular comparison of that kind ? A. That is the judgment of the committee. They pronounce if it is up to the standard or not. Q. Is there any complaint made against your biscuits or the biscuits of any- other members of the association ; have you ever known in the association of any complaint being made as to the quality of biscuits? A. There was a time thai Christie bad to sell ^ a coot higher than eome of the rest. Q. Why ? A. Because we were not making as good biscuits as he was. By the Chairman : Q. Ho had the reputation of making better biscuits ? A. iTes, I thought he did. By Mr. fisher : Q. Had you ever in your association any complaints made against any of the manufacturers for not making biscuits up to the quality? A. No, I don't think so. Q. You think they ail did make exactly the same quality? A. I think they make as good as they can. By tlie Chairman : Q. They are not trying lo make a cheap biscuit but a good biscuit? A. Yes. Q. Bid you ever hear of complaints being made that a manufacturer was making too good a biscuit? A. Yes. At one time we were anxious to have the privilege of selling a half cent lower than Christie, and he would not stand it and I think he made the complaint for the benefit of himself that we were making as good biscuitei as hib, and he would not agree to sell at .< cents higher than us. Q. That was the only instance where the complaint was made of too good bis- cuits being sold? A. I don't remember of any other complaint being made. I know the committee has mot together and examined the biscuits, and they got samples from us and pronounced them good and thought we must sell them at the same price that Christie did. SUQAB AND OB0CIRIE8. l4l^ By Mr. Bam ( Weniioorth) : Q. Did jou ever puspend or put out any members of the association in the matter of the quality of biscuits ? A. No. Q. Or lor any causes? A. No, sir. I look upon it as only a matter of honor. There is nothing else about it. We agree to sell at such a price and get up as good a biscuit as we can. Q. They all hold up prices pretty well ? A. Yes. By Mr. Ghllmor : Q. How then do you change the price? A. If stock goes down we generally call a meeting and biscuit has been put down, and if stock raises in price we would have to raise the price of biscuit. Q. There is no need of calling a meeting to do that if you had a combination to keep the prices up ? A. The president has to call a meeting and I know of my own knowledge that when we joined them we were selling biscuit at 7 cents a pound and I think 7^ and they pat them down to this and I remember at two meetings myself that the question was brought up if we could lower biscuits and they were lowered. Q. Were they ever lower than this at wholesale prices? A. They are at 6 now, Q. You haven't changed the prices for some time ? A. Not for some time. Q. For how long? A. For a couple of years. By Mr. JPisher : Q. I thought you sold a box for 20 cents ? A. Oh, yes; that is counting for the box. By the Chairman : Q. There is a pretty fair profit at 6 cents a pound or 20 cents a box ? A. The profit is not large on that. 1 would not want to sell them any less if there was no combination. If we sold them less we would have to make a poorer article. Q. I have here your estimate made of the cost of the raw material which would be about three cents per pound or a small fraction over three cents ? A. There is a great cost besjides that. There is the cost of coal, labor, machinery and the cost of manufacture. Q. A three pound box would be 9 cents. There would be the cost of manu- facture after that so that you would have prttty fair profits? A. And the cost of travellers. There are a great many things which would take a long time to take into account. For instance there is the freight on empty boxes back. Q. You get paid for that box? A. Sometimes they have to burn them. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are you aware of any biscuits being brought from New York or from tho^ other side? A. I have heard of it and 1 sate them in one store in Ottawa here. They were pretty badly broken up. Q. Were they good biscuits ? A. I think the biscuits were very good when they were made. Q. Are you aware of any adulteration being used in making biscuits ? A. By us? Q. Anywhere? A. No. We are using the best stock we can get. Q. How does shipping affect your trade. Is there any limit; do you ship for indefinite distances. A. I ship for all distances. By the Chairman : Q. Is yoDT trade principally in the Ottawa Valley ? A. Principally. We have sent some to Manitoba and Brandon and some to British Columbia. Not many, but we have sent some. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Do you send any to the Maritime Provinces ? A. No, we do not. By Mr. Bain (Weniicorth) : Q. You said just now New Year biscuits were considerably broken up; was that due to packing or handling? A. I could not say whether they were that way when these parties bought them or not. They were fine biscuits, still I think if a biscuit is properly made it is not go easily broken. 142 W. C. GIBSON. By Mr. McKay : Q Do you pay 84.50 for flour from whito wheat? A. We pay dififerent prices according^ to the quality of it. We have paid 84.25 and $4 50, and it is a little higher than $4.50 ; but I think the averai^e price would be that. Q. White Ontario wheat or Canada wheat? A. They tell us it is made from "white wheat ; we buy it for 84.50. Q. Any man ufucturers from Quebec in the combination? A. No, sir. I think there are two from Montreal. By Mr. W;od ( Westmoreland) : Q. There are none of your biscuits reaching the Maritime Provinces? A. No. I think there are as many outside of the combination, if not more, than in the com- bination. By Mr. Ftsher : Q. Do you find that those not in the combination undersell you? A. Some of them do; some of them a little. There are some French houses'in Montreal, I could not say, I have seen their invoices. I suppose they would, but I don't think they are making as good a biscuit. Q. You think they cannot make as good a biscuit and undersell you? A. I don't think they can. I would not want to do it. By the Chairman : Q. Do you find that this association that you have formed works pretty satisfac- torily? A. Well, I haven't heard much complaint about it. Q. Do you approve of its continuance ? A. 1 think 1 would. I haven't any objection, but I don'c care very much. Q. It gives you some advantage in the trade? A. Well, I don't know. Q. Are Toronto men permitted to pay freight to Ottawa? A. No, sir, they are not. Q. Are you sure ? A. They are not allowed to pay the freight to Ottawa* Q. Are members of the association permitted to pay freight any place? A. I think they are allowed to pay the freight; on one road where there are two roads. Q. You don't know of any other arrangement? A. No. Q. You cannot be very well posted then? A. I suppose I don't give it regular attention. By Mr. Guillet ;. Q. Who is the president? A. Christie. Q. Are you at liberty to make special rates to Manitoba? Are you permitted to make special prices? A. Manitoba ? I don't think this association has anything to do with it at all. By the Chairman : Q You make your own bargain there? A. Yes. Q. Who is the t^ecretary and treasurer of the association? A. I think the secretary and treasurer is in London, I forget his name just now. Q. Is he the secretary and treasurer both ? A. I could not say that. I think MoOormack is the Socroary and the other man's namo I forget, I think it is Port. Q. Is Port secretary or treasurer? A. I would not be sure. I think he acts sometimes when Christie is away, I think. Ho is president. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Wbat are the facts in connection with the distribution arrangement ? I don't know them exactly ? A. Distribution of what ? Q. Biscuit in paying freights and distributing ? A. We sell them at a certain Erice on board the cars here. When we deliver them in our waggons, we sell at a alfoent higher. Q. Then you are all required to sell at uniform rates on board tho cars ? A. Yes Q. At the place of manufacture ? A. Yes. Q. You are not allowed a discount or in anyway cover the cost of freight from there to whore the customer lives ? A. Nj, wj are not allowed to pay the freight. SUGAR AND OROGERISS. 143 We pay the freight on boaid the cars coming back on empty boxes. A coslomer pays Jiis own freight. Q. Do you allow any discount ? A. Yes ; at 60 days. By the Chairman : Q. What do you estimate the cost of manufactare oatside the cost of materials put in per pound ? A. i could not answer that without figuring. Q. You have been in business a long time. You have a fair idea ? A. I could not give that correctly without figuring it up. Q. Would it be a cent per pound ? A. I think it would be more than that. There are expen>es for men's wages and the foreman, and there is a great deal of work connected w th it. Q. Do you moan to tell us that the 2,200 pounds you m&ke every afternoon, that it cost more than $22.00 to manufacture. By Mr. Boyle : Q . In calculating the value you calculate the rent, wages, wear and tear <^ machinery and other incidental expenses that goes on in the manufacture? A. I haven't figured it over, but there is a great deal of waste about it and a great deal of labor about it. We had to pay a foreman high wage*?, and we had from 20 to 2i hands. Q. Would it all reach $20.00 per day ? A. I think it would. Q. How many hands have you making biscuits ? A. We have from 20 to 2Z hands. Q. Taking your biscuit batch how many hands would be working on that ? A. They are all engas^ed on it and then there is a traveller and a book-keeper. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You said 820.00 a day would be about the amount ? A. It might be more than that. Q. Would $25.00 do it ? A.* I could not say without figuring it up. I Bap~> pose it would be somewhere about that. Q. For making 2,200 pounds ? A. There would be a good deal of the forenoon preparing for that atternoon. Q. We want you to tell what it is ? If you think $25.00 covers that, that is •what we want to know ? A. I think it would perhaps cover it or somewhere there. By the Charman : Q. How does your profit on finer biscuits compare with your profit on soda biscuits ? A. They are about equal. Some or them are a little more, but we don't sell BO much of them. Q Sow does the profit on a pound of finer biscuit compared with the profit on a pound of soda biscuit ? Take lemon biscuits or Abernethy ? A. Well, they compare pretty nearly. We have to have a little more because we don't sell so many of them. By Mr. Fisher : Q. How many hands do you employ in your factory, laborers, &c. ? A , Well, we don'L always have quite the same. About 18 to 20 bands. Q. in the factory ? A. Yes. Q. Howlnany travellers do you employ ? A. We have sometimes two and sometimes one. Q. How many men in the office ? A. A book-keeper and a b:)y. Q. That is your whole staff besides the head of the firm ? A. Yes. Q. You say you make this kind of soda biscuits in an afternoon ? A. We run them throQgh the machine in the afternoon and bake them. Q. It does not lake the whole staff to prepare for them in the morning? A. No; we make some sweet biscuits in the morning. Q. How much sweet biscuits do you mako op besides six tons of soda biscuits ia 4 week ? Sometimes we make three or four barrels, sometimes five barrels, some- times six barrels of sweet biscuits in the forenoon. Q, Probably about half as much as you do soda biscuits ? A. Not always hal^ «ir. 144 W. C. GIBSON. Q. One-third as much? A. Yes. Q. If you put through six tons of soda biscuits in a weok you would put through two tons of sweet biscuits ? A. Well, I suppose somewhere about that, but w© don't run steady, we don't run full time. Q. To do that you employ from 18 to 20 hands ? A. Yes. Q. Do your hands average you somewhere about $1.00 a day ? A. Somewhere there. S^me we don't pay that, some we pay a good deal more. By Mr. Boyle : Q. That would harmonize with the statement that a ton of soda bieouite cost About $25.00 ? By Mr Wallace : Q. Of these 18 or 20 hands you have a good many of them boys or girls? A. Several girls. Young men and married men who earn sometimes aa high as $20.00 a week. Some get $1.50 a day, and some of the boys and girls pack. Q. How much a day ? A. We pay some of them $ i a week and some $4. By Mr. McKay : Q. Do you make anything else io your factory but biscuits ? A. No, sir. By Mr. McDougall : Q. Does your business extend beyond Ontario and Quebec? A. No; we don*t iBhip east. It is confined to Ontario. By Mr. Boyle : Q You made the expenses of material about 3 cents per pound ? A. Wholesale, aboat this. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortJi) : Q. This asBOciation exercises no pressure to bring parties into it? A. No, I never did. Q. Do other parties keep pretty well to the . association prices? A. I don't think there is much difference. By Mr. Boyle : Q. In the event of the violation of the rules of the association, what then ? A. Well, if a person does it he must break his word, because he said he would not do it. By Mr. Quillet : Q, No fines? A. No fines. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Is he dropped or expelled ? A. I never knew one to be brought up ? By the Chairman : Q. Reprimanded? A. Yes, I have known persons to cut prices to get an order sometimes ; whether he was reprimanded or not I could not say. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you have any facilities for buying in consequence of being a member of the association, or does each one buy as he can ? A. We buy as we can. Q You don't gain any benefits by being a member of the association Iq baying? A. No; we just buy where we can buy cheapest. Q. You have no organized connection in respect to purchasing? A. No. As far as I am personally concerned I don't care much whether there is ftp association or not. NATURAL PRODUCTS. 146 SECTION II.-NATURAL PRODUCTS. House op Commons, Ottawa, 17lh March, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this afternoon, Mr. Wallace in the Chair. Elias Eogers, coal merchant, of Toronto, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Mr. Eogers, would you please tell the Committee whether you are a member of the coal section of the Board of Trade ? A. Yes, I am. Q. Have yon the constitution and by-laws that govern them ? A. Tea. Q. I see here (Exhibit 346.) that •' the association shall be known as the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board ot Trade, and shall be composed of such coal dealers as are members of the said board who are duly elected members of the branch by a majority of the members present, at a properly constituted meeting thereof and who shall have paid their initiation fee to the said branch. The amount to be paid as an initiation fees shall not exceed the sum of $100, and a register shall be kept of the names of the members enrolled from time to time." Now I see by this that all members of the Board of Trade who are coal dealers are not members of this Coal Trade Branch ? A. I think that about ail of them are. Q. It requires, besides, that they should have to be duly elected members, does it not? A. Tea. Q. After being members on the Board of Trade and coal dealers, that they have to be duly elected members of the branch by a majority of the members present, &c, "Well, who became the first members of this brancti ? Who constituted the branch when it was first formed ? A. I think there was a general meeting of the dealers when the branch was first organized. I think there was a meeting of the dealers at which it was agreed that they should join the Board of Trade and form a branch organization of that board. Q. Then the Goal Dealers' Association was formed before they became part of the Board of Trade ? A. No, not this association. Q. There was an association was there not? A. Oh, yes. I do not know whether you would call it an association or not. There have always been meetings from time to time of the coal dealers. Q. Would you permit every dealer in coal to take part in these meetings and to be represented at the meeting, or was it confined to certain ones ? A. You have reference to meetings of this organization ? Q. I refer to the meetings of this branch section of the Board of Trade ? A. I do not know that all the dealers would be called to these meetings, there would only be a number of importers sometimes. Some question would come up and a number of importers would meet together to consider it, but there was nothing special to exclude the others. Q. How many classes of coal dealers have you in the city ? A. Importers and those who do not import. Q. Where do they get their supplies ? A. Those who do not import get their supplies from the importers. By Mr. Fisher : Q. All the coal passing through the Toronto market is imported? A. Certainly, we have nothing except imported coal from the United States. By the Chairman : Q. Then is this the whole constitution and rules of this association? A. Yes ; I think so. There may be some addition to it or amendment, but that is a copy that I happened to have with me. Q, When was this first coal association formed? A. About two years ago, not ^^nite two years, I think. 3—10 146 ILIAS ROGERS. Q. Is that the date when they amalgamated with the Board of Trade ? A. This is the new organization. There is no date on this constitution. I think it was aboat the first of May, 1886. Q. About the first of May, 1886. What is the initiation fee for membership ? A. $20, 1 think. It is either $10 or $20. I forget jast now. Q. Who are the members now? A. All the dealers, as far as I know. Q. All of the dealers are members of this coal trade branch? A. Yes. Q, Those who are not importers as well as those who are? A. Yes. il. Everyone? A. Yep. Q. Have you any other organization besides this coal branch of the Board of Trade ? A. No. You mean the coal trade organization? Q. Yes? A. Not in Toronto. Q. I mean in Canada that are connected with it? A. No. Q. Have you any committee or parties who regulate matters besides the officers of this board whose names are bore ? I see here the names of T. R. Whiteside, chairman; James Cowan, deputy chairman; R. E Gibson, treasurer; G. W. Wood, secretary ; and Messrs. J. R. Bailey, T. Coulter, Elias Rogers, F. H. Thompson, James Cowan, S. Crane, C. J. Smith and T. R. Whiteside, executive committee of the coal section. That is ihe only organization that you know of? A. That is the only one I am connected with. Q Where do you buy your coal? A. In various places. Of course there are a greai many ditferent kinds of coal. I want you to understand what we are talking about before we get very far. Q. Where do you buy the ordinary kind of coal for household purposes. I meaa stove coal, chesnut coal, soft coal and egg coal ? A. You mean the points or the company, Q. The person from who you buy ? A. You mean my firm. Q. Yes ? A. This last year we purchased from the Deleware, Lackawanna and Western Company. • Q. Is that a coal or a railroad company ? A. It is both a railroad and coal com- ?any. We also bought from the Pennsylvania, from the Reading and from the )elaware and Hudson Companies. Q. Are these all rival companies? A. They are rival companies. They sell at substantially the same prices. Sometimes they may vary a little. Q. But on the same day the price is pretty nearly the same? A. "ies, but eomeiimes we can make a better bargain with one company than with the other. The prices, however, are substantially the same. Q. Would you give us the names again ? A. Yes. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western, the Pennsylvania, the Reading and the Delaware and Hudson. Q. In what quanliiies did you buy from these companies in the last 12 months ? A. Then there is ihe Butler Colliery Company as well as the Pittston Coal Company, Q. These are iho mines? A. Yes. Q. And by what railroad do you get the coal from them taken out? A. Principally over the Lehigh Yalley and Erie Railway. Q. To Buffalo? A. Principally over the Lehigh Valley to Fairhaven. Q. Does any come by Buffalo or Oswego? A. That depends on circamstances. It Bomotimes comes by water. We have facilities for bringin^f it both ways. Q. When it cames by water it comes by way of Oswego, does it not? A. By water — Oswego, Fairhaven, Charlotte and Sodns Point. Q. What proportion? A. We take from the Delaware, Lackawanna or Western, and are taking this year about 60,000 tons. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That ie your own firm ? A. Yes, we take more from them than from any other oompaoy. I could not tell you exactly how much we take from the others. We took this year 7,000 tons from the Rej.ding Company ; 3,000 or 4,000 tons from the Delaware and Hudson ; perhaps 20,000 tons from the Butler Colliery Company, and 6,000 or 6,000 tons from the Pennsylvania Company. NATURAL PRODUCTS. 14T Q. What proportion of the coal do you get by water and what proportion by rail ? A. That depends altogether upoQ circumstances. Q. Say for the last twelve months ? A. This last year we have taken probably half by water of anthracite coal. Q, Half by water and half by rail? A. Yes. Q. Well, thocrices oi grate bizd to be advanced to the same as charged for egg size ; and they arther recommend, that ail sales should be made on the definite understanding that delivery should be made during the month of June (Exhibit 25(). That rule pre- vailed throughout the year, and 1 don't think any sales were made. By the Chairman : Q. What was the price in August? A. The price in August advanced 25 cents, and freights advanced. The price of coal on vessel at Toronto would be about $4.4i>. Q. It had advanced 10 cents ? A, It had advanced 25 cents. Q. Then it would be at Oswego about $4.04 ? A, The price was $4.50 gross. That would be $4.00 per net ton. Q. The remainder of the advance was an advance in the freight — the freight would be advanced to 88 cents ? A. Yes, the freight was about 38 cents. There were about 20,000 tons imported that month. In September it was about the bume. There were about 20,000 tons imported at 10 cents advance in the cost. That would be $4.50 on board the vessel at Toronto. Q. When was it $4.50 on the vessel in Toronto? A. September. October there was about 25,(i00 tons imported, at a cost of about $4.76 on board the vessel at Toronto, In November there were about b5,000 tons imported at a cost of about $5.25. NATTTBAL PB0DI7CTS. 153 Q. Which is it the total imports in Toronto or yoar imports ? A. This is the total imports taken from the harbor returns as to quantities. Q. At what cost? A $5.25. Q. What was the price given you at Oswego ? A. The price at Oswego at that month was $5.00 per erross ton which is $4.46 net. By Mr. McKay : Q . Freights went up to 79 cents per ton ? A . Freights varied from 75 to 79 cents per ton. By the Chairman : Q. Went up from 25 to 79 cents per ton ? A.I think there were only two or three vessels coming in at 25 cents rate. Q. What was the Oswego price in October? A. I think it was $4.75, if I remember right Q. $4.75 per gross ton ? A . Yes. Q. How much is that ? A. $4.75 gross is $4.24 net. Q. And the Septemper price ? A. You mean at Oswego? Q. Yes ? A.I gave you that already. Q. You gave us $4.50 as the cost price in Toronto ? A. That would be $4.02 the net ton at Oswego. This 35,000 tons in November, I have figured out here on that basis and the average would be $4.65 per ton for the whole of the imports in Toronto last season. Q. The average would be how much ? A. $4.65 taking the average quantity imported each month at these various prices. Q. That is delivered in Toronto ? A. That is on the vessel in Toronto harbor. Then the harbor dues are 5 cents. The coal heavers get 20 cents. The cartage to the yard was 10 cents and screening was 15 cents. Q. I see some have put it down at 5 cents — why do you put it at 15 cents? I eaw tne statement in the New York Herald, it was 5 cents per ton for screening ? A. It depends altogether on what they mean by that. If they are screening oar coal which has not been handled it might not exceed that, but when coal handled two or three times as is vessel coal, it could not possibly be done for less than 15 cents. 15 cents is the very least estimate. The average cartage to consumers is 40 cents and then there is 40 cents for general expenses. Q. Have you got all the items of the expenses ? A. Yes. Q. Is this an abstract from your books or what is it ? A. This is from memory. Still it is approximately correct and it is the cost of the coil merchants of Toronto. Q. Of course you are giving us your own experience. You are givirg it as your own experience. Wo only want your own statement. How many tons of coal did you handle last year — during the 12 months? A. Of this kind of coal — anthracite coal. Q. Yes ? A. We handled perhaps 100,000. By Mr. McKay: Q. Do you deliver with your own teams or do you hire ? A. Wo deliver with our own teams and we hire when we require extra cartage. Q. How many tons of other kinds? A. About 500,000 tons. By Mr. McKay : Q. What do you pay when you hire your cartage ? A. $2.50 per day. By the Chairman: Q. Would the geneiai expenses of the 500,000 tons be as much as the other? A. It jast depends. There are some kinds of coal on which there is a very close com- petition and the general expenses are not always figured. Q. You think it would average that for the whole thing ? A. 40 cent j a too. I think 40 cents a ton would be the average for general expenses. Q. That is cartage would be $60,000, and general expenses would be $60,000 more in your business. You gave the cartage as 40 cents per ton ? A. Y es. Q. And the genei al expenses at 40 cents per ton ? A. Yes. 154 BLIAS BOQERS. Q. That would mean $60,000 for cartage and $60,000 more for general expenses ? A. Yes, i think it would amount to tully that. We occupy yards owned and leased lepreeenting $125,000 in value. 1 suppose it would sell for that and then we own the plant Q. What proportion of this do you own ? A. We own two thirds of that I sup- pose. Toat is we own or hold in perpetual lease from the city and we own a plant worth about $25,000 or $150,000 in all, which at 6 per cent, would be $9,000 per Annam. Q. What is your plant ? A. Horses and carts. Q. You do your own cartage ? A . We do largely. Q. Would you not charge that cartage again ? A. Well perhaps I should leave that item out. Q. We will not go into that just now ? A. Do you want to know how that general expense is made up. I would like you to suflBciently understand that be- cause that is an important item. Q. Well give it to us ? A. I have offices which outside of the yards rent at about $1,750 and carry a stock — an average stock of $100,000, sometimes it exceeds that and sometimes it is not so large. I suppose we have now on our books about $100,000 of accounts on the average. On thete two items at 6 per cent, interest it -would mean about $12,000. Then insurance amounts to about $2,000, and then office salaries, such as the salaries of the salesmen, collectors and others amount to about $18,000. Contingencies say about $5,000 and yardman outside and carters about $15,000. That includes all the yardmen. Q. Is that not in the cartage account too ? A. No. I suppose part of that might be charged against labor and screening. It might not reach 40 cents but it is not far from 40 cents for general expenses. Q. Now, we might go a little further — about the coal you get in by rail, the prices are fixed at Buffalo or at the Suspension Bridge (Exhibit 25g) ? A. Yes. Q. What do you pay freight on that to Toronto ? A. The freight from Buffalo to Toronto is arranged at three rates. I think the rates are made for 10,000 tons, or over, and I think there is a rate made for 10,000 tons, and a rate made between 5 and 10,000 tonrt. The rate for 10,000 or over has been this year from Suspension Bridge 60 cents from the Ist of September. Q. And since that ? A. G5 cents from the 1st of September to the 1st of Uoverabor. Q. And since that ? A. 70 cents from that time up to the present time. By Mr. McDougall: Q. That is the net ton, is it ? A. That is the net ton, yes. By the Chairman : Q. Net ton from the Bridge to Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. That is for the 10,000 tons and over — was there a better one than that ? A. I think there are no better rates than these I have given you. It might be that these rates apply to 20,000 or over, and that for 10,000 tons it is 5 cents higher than these rates. Q. That is the best rate ? A. I think this is the best rate, yes. We have an allowance of 6 cents per ton on account of our sidings. We have our own sidings, that is a separate thing. We supply the sidings for the unloading of all cars at our own yards. That is of course altogether from the fact that we supply them with additional terminal facilities in connection with the Grand Trunk. By Mr. McKay : Q. What value do you put on these sidings ? Did you value them in the other valuation of the yards ? A. I cannot say we put any special value on them. We paid for them what they cost, about $2,000 each. By the Chairman : Q. How many have you ? A. We have two yards with sidings. One yard has two sidings. NATURAL PRODUCTS. 155- Q. About how much do you get in by water — aboat 30,000 tons or 35,000 ? A. About that. Q. And 65,000 by rail ? A. Yes. We may have got in more than that by water. Our tonnage this year will be something over 95,000. Q. New, your committee fixes the price. These prices arc fixed by the Execu- tive Committee ? A. They may as occasion requires. Q. As a matter of fact how often have you met during the la^t season ? A. Weil, I haven't been at more than two or three meetings, I think, daring last year. Q Well they have been called then V A. Oh, yes. Q. The Executive Committee fixes the prices then ? A. Yes. Q. What penalties are there for those who break the prices ? A. A penalty fixed by the a&jociation — by fining. Q. What is yoar fine ? A. It is varied in proportion to the oflFence. Q. Is it given in this Constitution and By-Laws ? A. 1 don't think there is anything special in regard to it. It is usaally in proportion to the oflFence. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of fact what is the largest fine that you know of being imposed in Toronto? A. $ ,000. Q. $1,000? A. Yes. Q. Was that $1,000 collected? A. Yes. Q. Who was fined ? A. Patrick Burns, Q. What was his offence ? A. It was immediately after this organization was formed. The oflFence was cuttirg prices for the waterworks contract, Q. But by the rules and by-laws he could not be fined $1,000. There is no regulation here to that eflFect. There must be some rules independent of these ? A. I think there are. I told you before that I thought there was something else. Q. This occurred before you were amalgamated with the Board of Trade did it not? A. No. Q. It was since then ? A. Yes. Q. Since this constitution was adopted then ? A. Yes. I think that it was not under this rule that that action was taken. It was an understood thing, though, at the time that this organization was formed. This committee who came to Toronto at that time explained about their organization in BaflFa!o and said that they imposed fines for violation of the rules and that when a fine was imposed the member was suspended until the fine was paid. Q. But rule 13 only provides that " a member for breach of the rule shall be deemed, in default, liable to suspension or expulsion " but there is nothing about fining. The clause continues : — " Any member so suspended or expelled deeming himgelf aggrieved shall have the right of appeal first to the Branch or subsequently to the Council of the Board of Trade ; snch appeal must be made in writing addressed to the secretary and the decision of the Council shall be final." Did Patrick Burns appeal from the decision ? A. No. By Mr. McKay : Q. Did he pay this willingly or did he object ? A. I could not say. I did not have anything to do with it. By the Chairman : Q. What was done with the money? A. He got the most of it back afterwards. Q. He paid the morey for the fine in to the association ? A. Yes. Q. What was the oflFence ? A. Cutting prices. Q. In violation of the rule of the association ? A. Yes. Q. What was the particular oflFence that was proved against him ? A. It was cutting the prices for the waterworks contract. Q. By which he got the contract ? A. Yes. Q. What were the circumstances. I suppose your committee had agreed upon a certain price ? A. Yes. the price had been fixed for the contract. Q. By whom ? A. If I mistake not that price was fixed at the time this com- mittee was there, I mean the committee appointed to come to Toronto and insist on organization. I remember that they were there at the time. 156 ELIA8 ROGERS. Q. Who was to get the contract for supplying the waterworks ? A. I think "that Mr. Keith was to have that contract. Q. The coal dealer in Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. And he was to have the contract for supplying the waterworks. How was it decided who was to have the contract ? A. I should explain that at the time this -committee came to Toronto that was one of the questions that had to be settled. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. The Committee from the United States ? A. Yes ; the Committee from the United States. T^e contracts for previous years had been nearly always given to wholesalers in the market. They had frequently been taken at less than cost, that is, in making the price there was nothing allowed for general expenses in the busi- ness and the question was how these contracts could be made to pay their proper ehare of the general expenses of the business. It was suggested that a pooling ar- rangement should be adopted, under which each importer would get a share of the profits from these contracts to assist in paying their general expenses. Q. That is that the whole of the profits were not to go to one dealer? A. Yes. Q. But were to be divided up among all the dealers ? A. It was a pooling ■arrangement on the basis of tonnage. Q. That is the amount of business that each one did ? A. On the basis of ton- nage as shown by the custom house return for the previous year. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. How did you expect to collect the fine you imposed. A. This part of the arrangement was fairly understood. The intention of the arrangement was to make the contracts pay their proper share of the general expenses of the business. By Mr. McKay : Q. What do you mean by general expenses? A. I mean this 40 cents that I spoke of. It was the intention at the time that this organization was formed that the contract and the summer trade should pay their share of the general expenses of the business instead of doing as they had done in previous yeai'S selling down to cost or about that without anything for these general expenses and then putting the whole of these general expenses on the winter trade. Q. And these profits were to be divided among all the dealers? A. Yes as far as the contracts were concerned. There were three or four large contracts in Toronto that tenders were advertised for and they were specially mentioned. Q. How was the contract for the coal for the city schools arranged for ? A. There was no arrangement with regard to that. It was allowed to take the retail price so far as the coal was concerned. Wood was of course to be an open question. Q. Who tendered for the coal for the city school ? A. They all tendered. Q. Who got it ? A. We got it. The prices were all the same for the coal but ^e tendered lower for the wood . Q. You had to pool the profits with the other dealers? A. No, there was ^no pooling about that. Q. Then was it agreed you should have the contract? A. No. Q. Then how did yon get it ? A. We made a lower price for the wood. Q. But you fixed the coal at a certain price ? A. Yes, Q. And then you were to tender for the wood at what you pleased ? A. Yes. Q. And yours was the lowest for the wood ? A. Yes. This was in 1886. We have not the school contract this year. Mr. McGill has the contract this year. Q. Do you know of any arrangement with your coal section by which the city oootraci was let by auction? A. That is what I speak of, the pooling airangementi I may Huy that the price was fixed and whoever made the highest bid received the -<:oDtract. This money went to the exchange, that is one-sixth of the amount, and the balance was divided among the importers at that time as shown by the custom house return; Q. How many importers are there ? A. About seven or eight, I think. Q. And this was divided up, of course, amongst these seven or eight ? A. Yes. NATURAL PRODUCTS. 157 Q. How much was the amoant that the successfal tenderer gave ? A. Well, there were different contracts. Q. There were a number of contracts of that kind ? A. Tee, four or five. Q. What were these contracts ? A. The Grovernment's Q. How many tons was that? A. I do not remember the tonnage, perhaps 2,000 tons. Q. Then there was the school board ? A. That was not fixed that way. Q. The wood was left open? A. Yes. Q. What else was there, was the waterworks contract included in that arrange- ment too ? A . Yes. By Mr. McKay : Q. In the auction arrangement? A. It was intended that Mr. Keith shoold have it . By the Chairman : Q. Who has the contract now for the waterworks ? A. Mr. Bailey. Q. How did he obtain it ? A. In the same way. Q. By making the highest bid for it ? A. Yes. I am speaking not from what I know personally, but Irom what I believe to be the case. I had nothing to do so far as the present contract is concerned. Q. He made the highest bid and he got the contract. What was paid for the waterworks contract ? A. Do you mean this last year? Q. Yes? A. I think it was 8600. I do not know personally, but from what I have heard and believe to be the case. I had nothing to do with it. Q. You were a member of the council then and you could not take part in it ? A. Yes. Q. There were arrangements made with the other coal dealers? A. I had thi» to do, that I induced the other dealers to make a lower price. Q. You say that all the members of the coal trade in Toronto are members of this coal branch of the Board of Trade. I think you said they were all members or about all ? A. I think so. Q Did they all participate in this arrangement that was made, or was it con- fined to the importer ? A. The importers were the only ones who could undertake these contracts. Q. But this division of the profits ? A. These profits were divided amongst the importers ? Q. They did not include all the dealers, but only the importers ? A. Yes, the importers are the only men of course that can undertake these contracts. No one else has the facilities. Q . They would have to buy from the importers ? A. Y^es, they have the room and the facilities for handling. Q. Then you have a separate organization of those importers ? No, it is all the one organization. The Executive Committee, you understand, make the prices. Q. So that with reference to this arrangement whereby this $600 was to be divided among the coal importers, when you made that arrangement you did not give these other men a vote naturally, or perhaps they would have voted part of it to themselves? A. That was the original arrangement. Q. And that still remains ? A. Yes. Of course these gentlemen were quite agreeable to that. They considered it only a fair arrangement. It was a matter of DO interest to them although they were members of the executive committee. There were three men who were not importers, but who were members of the executive committee, the chairman and two others. Q. Do you administer an oath in your organization? A. Yes. Q. An oath of membership ? A, Y''es, it is a qualification that every member ia required to take in order to become a member. Q. What is it? A. It is to the effect that they have carefully read the consti- tution and by-laws, and that they will maintain them as long as they continue in membership, and that they will not allow others in their employ to violate them. 158 XLIAS ROGERS. Q. Is anyone required to take the oath except the members, that is the dealeis themselves. Are their employes required to take the oath in any instance? A. I think the salesmen have. Q. What are they required to take the oath for? They are not members of th> -orgaiiization ? A. I think it is as employes of the members of the organizatii that ihey are required to take the oath. The object was of course that they shou' ; be bound to maintain the prices. Q. Then you swear then to keep them fastened down to the prices ? A. Ye^ that is the intention. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is there an oath of secrecy? A. No. By Mr. Ouiltet : Q. In a case of parties who have conscientious objection to taking an oath, what do you do with them ? A. Well, I have conscientious objections to taking the oath. Q. I suppose in that case you would affirm ? A. Yes. Mr. GuiLLET — But there are parties who object to join an oath-bound association. By the Ghairman : Q. There are two classes of oaths, the oath of the member who having read over the^constitution and by-laws promises that he will submit to them and keep them, and then there is the oath of the nonmembar or employe ? A. I think there is only a very slight variation. This constitution and by-laws is placed in the bands of the salesman, and I think the only variation is just sufficient to cover their case, simply, that they have read the constitution and by-!aw8 and will maintain the rules of the association. Mr. Bain (Wentworth) — If you are going to summon the secretary of the association, Mr. Chairman, he was the man who should have custody of all these papers. Witness — Everyone has them. By Mr. Guillet: Q. I suppose there is a minute book ? A. I suppose there is. Q. You said in reference to orders for coal in the month of June, thai orders would not be taken owing to your inability to deliver coal during that monih ? A. That is by the shippers. Q. Did that extend to the remaining months of the year ? A. Yes. By Mr McKay : Q. Is there much difference between the price of coal at Oswego in 1887 than 'what it was there in 1886 ? A. Oh, the price was very much advanced, very much advanced . Q. How much? A. Well, there was hardly any advance in 1886 from the opening price. Still there was a slight advance as near as I remember now, and in ltt87 there was a very large advance. Q. What was the average price, as near as you can give it, in 1886 ? A. I don't know that I remember it sufficiently to state, but I think about $4.25 per gross ton. Q. That was the average price at Oswego per gross ton in 1886 ? A. That is per frosa ton. I don't think it would e^iceed that, speaking from memory. That would e about $3. 75 per net ton. Q. It did not rise during the season as it did in 1887? A. No, nothing like as much. There wasn't the same difficulty in transportation. The coal was imported to Toronto ai lower rales of freight. Q About what rates in that year? A. Well, I think the rate wasn't over twenty-five cents per ton before September or October. Q. Then freights went up very much in the season of 188 T — vessel freights? A. Yea. By Mr. Fisher: Q. As i understand it, then, this combination was entered into for- the purpose of regulating trade in Toronto and sustaining the prices. What was the result of this oombination ? A. Well, I believe the effect of this organization has been to inorease NATURAL PRODUCTS. 15^ ;the price of the large contracts in sunmer, which we call the rich man'o trade and decrease very materially the price of winter trade or the poar man's trade Q. In what way is that brought about, will you explain a little ? A. The price **thi8 last spring is placed at $6 per ton. That was supposed to be a fair price for fSoal on the basis of what the wholesale price is fixed by the association on the other nde. By Mr. Guillet : ^ Q. Was that delivered? A. Yes; delivered. By Mr. McKay : Q. At what season ? A. That price was fixed in May immediately after tho prices was fixed on the other side. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That was the summer price ? A. Yes. For these large contracts 25 cents -was taken ofi". Q. That was a discount ? A. Th it was a discount for large contracts. Thafi was bimply these large contracts which have been referred to. Q. Any private individuals ? A. Not the householders, eve ryone paid the same price. Q. Well the effect of your association rather raised that price then. I would like to get Mr. Rogers to state what the price would likely have been if it hadn't beea for the association that year ? A. In my opinion the price at which these contracts and this class of trade I speak of (the rich man's trade) that would have been prob- ably 85.25 or $5.5U per ton. Frobably not more than $5.25 per ton. That trade was probably taken at about 75 cents a ton less. The result of competition in coal insuiTiraeris generally to cut prices to the bare cost of the coal, freight and handling, v(rithout leaving anything for general expenses. Q. Will you explain why it is that in the winter trade the same effect would not crop out ? A. Because the dealer has more than he can do., fie has to pay his general expenses out of it, and he hat* no margin if he cuts in prices. Q. You can fix your prices if you choose considerably higher and still get it ? A, Ob, yes. What I was going to explain was that the effect of this organization has been as the prices are fixed in that way early in the season, and instead of competi- tion and breaking down prices, they took orders throughout the summer for delivery throughout the year without any payment being required at all until delivery. Q. When you did that did you bsee your price above the summer rate ? A. The dealers took the chances of the price. By Mr. McKay : Q. What was your winter price? A. Four-fifths of the whole trade of the year taken at this sum mar price. Everyone who chose to do it, came in and ordered their coal to be used for the wioter as they required it. They simply entered their names, and I say four- fifths of the trade was taken at that price. Q. The poor man could order the same as the rich man ? A Yes. Q. He had the same chance that the rich man had, had'nt he ? A. Yes. Q. When was this? A. Last season. The dealer took the chances of the ad- vance in the wholesale prices. Uf course he was the sufferer, because the wholesale went Dp very materially, and he was really obliged to supply the coal at a loss. By Mr. Bain { Wenticorth) : Q They will not be likely to repeat that arrangement again ? A. No; I don't think ihoy will. Q. What did you fix your winter price at? A. The price was advanced 25 cents in November, and I think 35 cenis in October, and 25 cents in December, there was an advance of 75 cents altogether. By Mr. McKay : Q. That is generally the time the poor man pays is it not? A. He would not have been able to buy in ordinary years until then, but this year he was canvassed for his trade by the dealers, they were anxious to get the trade and everyone had the opportunity of placing their orders if they wanted to do so. 160 XLIAS ROGERS. Q. You said you raised the price of summer coal and you gave them a chance to buy it at $5.75 in former years, bui this year you put up the price ? A. The price was fixed early in the season. Q. In former years it was lower, 05.50 and $5.25? A. Of course that would depend upon the market. If it depended upon the open market there is no doubt it would have been lower last year. By the Chairman • Q. What was the price in 1886 — Oswego prices for the season of 1886 did not vary very much ? A. I don't remember the exact price. Q. What was the price in 1886, do you remember ? A. I gave it a little while ago, I don't remember exactly. I don't think it would average over $4.25 per groB& ton, that would be $3.79 per net ton. Q, That is virtually the same figure that it started at the year before ? A. Started at this last year. Q. It was virtually the same price. Then there were 50 cents duty in 1886 and no duty in 1887 and the price one year was as much as the other notwithstanding the fact that the 50 cent duty was taken off? A. The price was advanced on the other side. Q. But you say it was $3 79 in 1886, and, you understood, in May, June and July ? A. The average price in 1886 was about the same as the opening price in 1887. Q. But you said in August it was $4.02 and in October $4.1^4, so it would aver- age $4.21 ? A. You mu^t not get the two prices confused, the gross ton and the net ton. Q. $3.79 was the average? A. For the net ton. Q. That would not average $4.00, that would not be an increase of 21 cents, but there is a saving of 50 cents ia the duty, but still coal went up ? A. You must bear in mind that in 1887 there was very little coal imported until late in the season when the prices were higher and the freights were higher. Q. You said you imported 35,000 tonsol stove and nut coal alone at these rates ? A. Don't make a mistake. I did'nt say we imported that amount. That was the whole trade of Toronto. There were 35,000 tons of coal imported at the opening rates* Q. At an average price of $4.10 per ton ? A. Yes, it was $3.79 at Oswego. The average price advanced from that time on and the freight advanced and thera were 300,000 tons imported at that price. I remember the prices had been fixed at $6.50 for the local trade in Toronto before the duty was taken off and the duty was'nt taken off until about the 16th of May, and as soon as the duty was taken off the price was reduced 50 cents a ton. By Mr. McKay : Q. I can see one dollar a ton difference between the price of 188? and the price of lfcb6; you sold in 1886 summer coal for $6.25 and $6.50, when you paid 50 cents a ton duty on that — did'nt you — you say we sold in 18^6 from $6.25 to $5.50 ? A. I think you are mistaken, I said the price in 1887 would have been about $5.25 or $5.60 if there had been no organization. Q. I understood you to say that in 1886 that the price was $5.25 and $5.50 ? A. The price in 1886 at retail in Toronto was $6.00 for stove coal and nut coal, and in October it was $6.50. By Mr Quillet : Q. Did you say in the spring ? A. I think there were only two prices in 1886, $6.00 from June till October, and $6.60 from that till the 1st of May. Considering the increased cost in freights, we get coal nearly as low as it has been in Toronto during the last 10 years. By Mr. McKay : Q. Would the freights from Oswego to Toronto be about the same as they would be from Oswego to Hamilton, would there be much difference ? A. No, about the same. There is this difference between Hamilton and Toronto. Hamilton does not take anything like the quantity of coal that Toronto takes and they are able to im- port there a very much larger proportion during the season of navigation than COAL. 161 Toronto. This lust year for iDstance Hamilton got a very much larger proportioa of their coal in in June, July and August than Toronto, because they have their own vessels. Q. Some of them have ? A. Yes, and they were able to import very much more. By Mr. Quillet: Q. Do these restrictions that you imposed upon the dealer in coal, did they ex- tend the sales paid along the lines of the railways running north of TorontD? A. No, there is no price fixed for the country trade. By the Ghairman : Q. You said there was a fine of $1,000 imposed on Patrick Burns — what other tines do you know of ? A. There have been a number of fines at various times. Q. Large amounts. Is that the only $1,000 fine that you know of? A. I don't know of any other. Q. Not as much as $500 ? A. I don't know what. McConnell was fined pretty heavily. I don't know what the amount was. Q. What for ? A. Violation of the rules. Q. In what way did he violate the rules ? A. He broke the prices and broke the rule. Q. When did that occur ? A. He was cootinnally doing it. Q. He was continually being fined was he ? A. I think he was fined once and they expelled him the second time. Q. What does expulsion mefti ? A. [t simply means what expulsion means to anyone elee. Q. Does it deprive him of buying from the American dealers— does it deprive him from being an importer ? A. Not if they like to sell him. He was expelled, about a jear and half ago. Q. Has he been reinstated ? A. I think he was expelled twice. He was ex- pelled once, I think, and reinstated, and then he was finally expelled about a year ago. A. What disabilities does expulsion carry with it? A. Well, I don't know that it carries any if he can buy his coal from the other side ? Q. H he can ? A. Yes. Q. It must have carried some disabilities or else Patrick Burns would not have paid the $1,000 fine ? By Mr. Guillet : Q. You could not legally collect that fine ? A. He was fined and he was in default until he paid the fine. The rules don't say anything about the fine. Q. It says something about being suspended or expelled ? A. Yes ; he would have been expelled if he didn't make satisfaction in this case. Q. The rules do not say there is any power to fine ? A. There is a resolution or something that gave them authority to fine. By Mr. McKay : Q. I never heard of this fining business until to-day ; you say McConnell was expelled twice ? A. Yes. Q. What result did that have on his business— did he continue in the coal business? A. Yes. Q. in competition with you? A. Yes. Q. An importer ? A. Yes. Q. Where did he get his coal. A. He got it from a jobber in Buffalo. By the Chairman : Q. Did the society send word to these firms asking them not to supply McConnell ? A. Not since this last year. I think when he was first violating the rules they were notified of the fact. Q. With what result, that he could get coal ? A. Yes; he did get coal. Q. As a matter of fact he did ? A. Tes. Q. The association of course in duty to their members tried to prevent him. irom getting it ? A. The association felt aggrieved that these gentlemen should 162 SLIAS ROaSRS. oome over from the other side and insist upon oar organizing and maintaining the- prices and saying that they would not supply us with coal if we didn'i do it and that notwithstanding what this man did nothing was done. Q. And nothing was done to«him ? A^. I think pressure was brought to bear on the party supplying him on the other side. Q. Unsuccesslully ? A. I suppose it must have been successfully as far as thfr first time is concerned as he paid the fine. Q. What was the fine ? A. I could not tell you. Q. What other persons were fined ? A. I think they have nearly all been fined. Q. All paid their fines ? A. Yes. Of course sometimes there might be an ordinary fine for the violation of the rules* Q. How much money has there been divided up as the result of the contracts T A. I could not say. Q. How much do you think? A. I don't remember. I suppose there has been several thousand dollars. Q. Several thousand dollars divided up ? A. Yes. Q. A contract was auctioned among the members and the amount divided among the importers ? A. Yes. Q. How many thousand dollars do you think ? A. That is apart from fines altogether. In the case of Burns that tine was made a premium ; afterwards it was not treated as a fine. Q. In what way do you mean ? A. It was treated as a premium for that con- tract and he got his proper proportion back. Q, Burns paid so much for getting the contract ? A. Yes, his fine was treated as a premium and he was allowed to fulfil his contract and of course he got his share Q. Who was to get the contract that year ? A. Keith. Q. Did he give the highest bid ? A. Yes. Q. What was his bid ? A. I don't remember, S200 and something over. Q. For the waterworks contract ? A. Yes. Q. His bid was two hundred and some odd dollars to be allowed to get the con- tract ? A. Yes. Q. How much was his price underneath ? A. His price, that is, Burns' price, was $4.21 and I think the price fixed was S4.55. Q. He came 34 cents under the price ? A. Yes. Q. And got the contract and was fined $1,000 besides ? A. Yes, and he paid OB for a very large amount of that coal $5.25 a ton in our yard and carted the coal to the waterworks wharf. Q. For how much of it ? A. I don't remember how much. I know that a con- siderable amount of that coal was bought from us and he paid us $5.25 per ton in the yard and carted it himself, which is a loss of $1.50 per ton. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q, Had he no margin at all on that contract price? A. I do not think there was any margin on that $4.21 on the basis of the then price of coal and cost of freight and so on, and he also took the chances of an advance in the wholesale price and he took the chance of the lowering of the wholesale price. By Mr. McKay : Q. You have described the coal organization in Toronto, do you know if that organization exists in other places, say Hamilton ? A. I do not know whether they are exactly the same. I do not think there is a town or city on this continent where anthracite is sold but what there is some kind of an organization or understanding among the dealers as to the price. I do not think you can find any town in Canada where there is more than one dealer without there is some, without some understand- ing about the price of coal. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. But these organizations are not affiliated with each other ? A. No. Q. There is no arrangement between your organization and the Hamilton and £iDgBton one ? A. No, and this organization did not attempt to control any of GOAL. 162 them yet in Toronto ; it fixed the price of soft and cjrate coal bat did not attempt to control Lehigh coal or steam coal. Q. Each dealer is free to do as he pleases with all these prices ? A. They simply control the price of coal. As far as I am concerned I would be much better pleased if all organizations were wiped out of existence. While that anthracite orgabization exists or unless there is some change it cannot be avoided as far as I can see. Q. You got a share of all these premiums ? A. No ; I did'nt get a share of the waterworks premiums. Q. You were in the council at that time ? A. Yes ; I did'nt get-any share. Q. Did you get your share of the school board premium ? A. There is no premium on that. Q. You got the contract last year ? A. Yes. Q. How did you get the contract ? A. The wood was open, with a uniform price for coal. Q. Was there any understanding with any of the members that you should get that when you were debarred from tendering tor the waterworks coal ? A. I was'nt in the council that year, I was only in the council one year. By Mr, Guillet : Q. Were you at liberty to sell as an importer at a lower rate than the price set by the c-ombination ? A. That was the yard price, that $5.2/i. I don't think that there was restriction between dealers. Q. He was out of the combination ? A. No, he had paid his fine and was rein- stated. By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) : Q. I suppose you sell at the yard to any person at those prices ? A. I made a» low in this case as I could, I remember, because I knew he was losing money. Q. I don't exactly clearly understand the relative positions of the American organization, that is the position in which they stand to each other and how it is that McConnell, when he ceased to be a member of your organization, could still pur- chase his coal on the American side, notwithstanding your protest ? By Mr. McKay : Q. I understood you to say he bought from a jobber in Buffalo ? A. He bought from the same party he bought irom while he was a member, that was with refer- ence to 1886, altogether there was no pressure brought to bear on anyone during 1887. In November, 188*7, the price at the bridge was $5.30 per gross ton as fixed by the association there. It was sold as high as $6.00 a ton going to Chicago, and on April the 27th, 1887, the association pissed this resolution (Exhibit 256.) r "That it is to be understood that the action of this committee of conference ia purely recommendatory, and while urging upon one and all the desirability of con- forming thereto, the committee assumes no authority in the premises, and does not seek to limit the freedom of action of any individual member of the committee or of those to whom these recommendations may come," and they go on fixing the prices. By the Chairman : Q. You paid $3.79 per ton at Oswego ? A. Yes. Q. What amount of profit have the combine in the States on that ? A. I could not say, the profit must have been comparatively small. Q. Your partner is the owner of a coal mine you said ? A. Yes. Q. You would not give us the cost of reduction and the cost of freight?. A» I do not remember what the freight was at that time from the mines to Oewego, but the profits were very small. Q. Do you get most of the coal from your own mine ? A. Sometimes. This last year wo got a large proportion of it outside. I would like to ask if it is clearly understood what the effect of this organization has been during the lasi two years. It is clearly understood that the effect has been that it has increased the price of the rich man's trade and reduced the price of the poor man's trade, that is, it ha» 3— Hi 164 G. W. WOOD. equalized the sammer and winter trade. If there is anything in the evidence that conflicts with that, I wish to fix it right. The Committee adjourned. House op Commons, Ottawa, 23rd March, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning ; Mr. Wailaoo in the Chair. G. W. Wood, of Toronto, Searetary to the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade, sworn. By the Chairman ; Q. Yoa are the secretary of the coal section of the Board of Trade ? A. Yes. Q. Have yoa a copy of your books ? A. Yes these are the rules and constitu- tion (Exhibit 346). Article 6 of the constitution provides: "It shall be the duty of the executive committee further to fix prices for coal, and change the same from time to time as in their judgment the best interests of the trade demand, and to instruct the secretary to notify all the members of the branch promptly of such action, and the prices so fixed shall be the prices at which coal shall be sold by all members of this branch, and not otherwise, and the executive committee comes under an obligation to submit at any time, at the request of the council of the Board of Trade, for its consideration, a statement showing the percentage of profit being made by members of the branch, and the council may make a deliverance thereon." Now I know the council have made a kind of informal enquiry from time to time as to the comparative prices that wore being charged and the cost. Q, Did yoa furnish the information? A. No; the importers. Q. But they could only apply through the secretary ? A. Yes. They were informal enquiries. Q. Verbal ? A. Yes ; verbal. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. There has never been any official demand in writing? A, No. Q. Did they ever order the prices current? A. I only give it to yoa as I know it. With regard to the gentlemen who originated this branch, between four and five years ago, h committee came over from Buffalo, the committee of the Western Anthracite Joint Association ; the coal trade had been in a very ruinous state for four or five years. Q. Were you in the business then ? A. I was the secretary then. Q. Blias Rogers said that this organization was only in existence two years, but you say you were the secretary four or five years ago ? A. He meant in connec- tion with the Board of Trade. Q. He says that they formed a new organization and he did his best to get it amalgamated with the Board of Trade and succeeded ? A. Yes. Q. And now you are speaking of an organization that was in existence four or five years ago ? A. It was a private organization at that time and not connected with the Board of Trade. Q. And were you secretary then ? A. Yes. Q. And have been all along? A. Yes. Q. When was this private organization formed ? A. Four Or five years ago. Q. Have you the minutes? A. I have, but not with me. Q. Who were the originators of the association ? A. The importers. Q. Can you name any special individuals? A. J. R. Bailey & Company, P. D. Oonder and Elias Bogers. Q. Elias Eogers said that he was not in favor of this construction. Did he assist tbe organization then ? A. You don't understand. Q. But I do understand? A. You don't understand me, perhaps. Q. I understand perfectly. He said he was not in favor of this combination. Did he assist in the organization then ? A. Yes. GOAL. 16& Q. When was that ? A. Foar or five years ago. Q. Not longer? A. No. Q. What year was that ? A . I think it was in 1883. In July, 1883, if I re- member right. *Q. When you organized ? A. "Yee. Q. And what w«8 the object of the organization ? Can you give us a complete list ot the originators ? A. Besides these I have mentioned, Messrs. Keith and Burns. Q. These were all importers? A. Yes. Q, Was this an organization of importers? A. Yes. Q. Importeis only ? A. Yes. The importers were the ones who were repre- senting the parties on the other side. Q. Were you present at this organization meeting ? A. No, I was not present. I was only called in afterwards. Q. You were not there ? A. No. Q. Have yon any record of that first meeting ? A. No. Q. Do you know if anyone else was present besides these five? A. No. Q. Or whether all these five were there ? A. I do not know that these five were there. Q. They were the originators? A. Yes. Q. Well this organization continued for how long ? A. It has continued up to the present time. Q. It was the same organization ? A. It is the same organization ; only two years ago it came in with the Board of Trade. Q. But it is the same organization ? A. Yes. Q. Then it is not true as we were told that a new organization was formed two jears ago ? A. It fell through once or twice, once in particular. Q. The members were underselling ? A. They could not keep them in line. By Mr. Bain (Wentioor'h) ; Q» Were those the days whtu Mr. Burns was fined $500 ? A . Yes. By the Chairvum : Q. Mr. Burns was fined $1,000, was he not ? A. Yes ; $1,000- Q. Can you give us all the fines that have been imposed ; by what rule do you fine men in this constitution ; you fined Mr. Burns $1,000 ; would you show me in your constitution where you were authorized to impose that fine ? A. This is the constitution under the Board of Trade. (Exhibit 346.) Q. You have another constitution ? A. Well of course there was a copy of rules that was drawn up by the association previous to that. This is the constitution under the Board of Trade. By Mr. Bain ( WmtwortK) : Q. Have they had any fines imposed since they were amalgamated with the Board of Trade ? A. Two were fin^, this year, $10 each. By the Ckairman : Q. When did you fine Mr. Burns ? A. It was before the amalgamation with the Soard of Trade. These are the minutes just after the association was joined to the Board of Trade. By Mr. Casgrain ; Q. Was that fine paid ? A. Yes, but he got part of it back again. By the Chairman ; Q We did not ask you that. What was done with the money ? A. It went into what we call the pool. Q. And what was done with it ? A. It was divided up amongst the importers according to the tonnage. Q. Giving how much to each ? It was sworn here that he got the most of it back again ? Did he get the most of it back again ? A. That year I think he got between $700 and $800, his share of the pool. Q. How much did he get of that $1,0U0. It was sworn here that he got the most of it back. Did he get the most of it back ? A. He got his share of the pooL 166 G. W. WOOD. The whole pool was about $2,400 or $3,000, and his share was one-third of the whole tonnage . Q. How mnoh of that $1,000 did he get back. It was sworn here that he got the most of it back. That is not true? A. I said that he got about $800 back. Q. I am speaking of the $1,000. It is not true that he got the most of it back? A. I would like to put it in a new form. Yon can tell yourself Q. Answer my question. He got back one- third of the fine ? A. Yes. Q. And one-third of the result of the auction sale. He had to pay $1,000, and he got about one-third back ? A. Yes. Q. You say the pool amounted to about $3,000 ? A. Yes. Q. And this was divided among the importers alone? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Burns got one-third. $800? A. Yes. Q. There were $3,000, but the expenses of the organization were taken out ? A, Yes. 0"f -sixth was taken out for the expenses. Q. That would leave about $2,400 and that divided up ? A. Yes, amongst the importers. Q. You oarnot tell by what rule of the association you were authorized to im- pose this fine of $1,000? A. Well, it was a private association before. There was DO charter. It was previous lo joining the Board of Trade. Since they have joined the Board however these rules were made out and printed. Q. Had you any rules before ? A. Yes. Q. Have you got tho^e rules ? A. No. Q. You were secretary during all that time, the custodian ? A. Yes. Q. Why did you not bring a copy with you? A. I thought this was all you 'wanted. Q. Under these roles, say last year, what was the amount of fines received ? A, Take from May to May I think the fines amounted to $20. Q. What was that for? A. Taking over orders at less than the current prices. There was a pjirty by the name of Thomas McC )nnell who had booked a number of orders and had not been able to fill them. I suppose owing to circumstances not under his control. These orders were taken over by two of the members' and they were fined $10 each. One was J. R. Bailey & Company, and the other was Q. 0. Eay & Company. Q. That was all the fines last year ? A. That was all that appears. Q. What amount was realized in putting contracts for local government, public schools, waterworks, &c., up at auction among the combiners? A. I think the city contract realized aboat $1,200. It was hard and soft coal, and wood, I think. The whole amount realized this year I think was about $2,800. That was altogether, And one-sixth was taken out for expenses. Q. What were the amounts realized from auctioning off these contracts ? Au About $800. Q. What were the items ? A. The waterworks was about $600. Q. Who received the contract ? A. I think it was Mr. Bailey. Q. For how much ? A. $f 00. Q. How much per ton ? A. There were 12,000 tons. Q. But how much per ton ? A. 5 cents per ton. Q. How much per ton was his contract ? How much did you fix the prices that the city was to get coal lor? A. At a meeting on the 2l8t May, it appears, " Received from J. R Bailey & Company his cheque for $600." Q. What was the amount your association fixed as the price the city should pay? Ai $4.66 in the shed and $4.70 in the boiler house. Q. "What do you mean by the shed, the waterworks shed ? A. Yes, I suppose so, Q. $4.66 in the waterworks shed, and $4.70 in the boiler house ? A. Yes. By Mr. Landry : Q. That was the price at which it was to be delivered to the city ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. That was the contract price ? A. Tea. COAL. 167 By Mr. Landry : Q. Was that for anthracite coal ? A. Yes, anthracite coal. It is brought by "water. Q. Anthracite coal $4.55 per ton, and oat of that he had to pay $600 to the •other importers ? A. Yes. Q. For the benefit of the contract he had to pay $600 ? A. Yea. By the Chairman : Q. And paid a cheqae for that amount ? A. Yes. By Mr. Qxllmor : Q. The city wanted 12,000 tons of coal ? A. Yes. Q. They asked for tenders ? A. Yes. Q. And the coal combination tendered ? A. Yes. They tendered individaally «nd not as a whole. Q. The combination then tendered. There was more than one tenier ? A. Only one tender. Q. At that price, but others could tender for what they liked. The combination could tender individually ? A. Yes. Q. No matter who got it, they tendered for the whole? A. Yes. By the Chairman ; Q. But all who tendered had to tender at more than the $4.55, fixed for the lowest man ? A. Yes. Q. They havicg decided that he shall get that contract, the coal combination meet and they decide that $4.55 shall be their tender price to the city, and $4.70 for it delivered at the boiler house. Then they decided as to who shall have the contract on that, and it is put up at auction, and Mr. Bailey says : " I will give $600," and .gets it. Then he hands the cheque to be divided amongst the others, lefs one-sixth, "which leaves $500 to be divided amongst the others. "When the city asked for tenders Mr. Bailey is to have the contract. Does the city know that ? A. No. Q. That is all done in secret ? A. Yes. Q. And the city supposes that they are getting competition ? A. I do not know anything about that. I know that that price is fixed, and they tender for what they like. Q. You are there at the meetings of the committee and you know what passes. There is more passes than is published in the minutes ? A. As I told you they do not tender at lec-s than that. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Only one tender at the price fixed by the committee ? A. They do not tender at all very frequently. Q. Bat members of this association do tender ? A. Yes. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Others outside of the combination stand alone ? A. Yea. Mr. GiLLMoa — I think the man who stands against that combination should be brought here at once. By the Chairman ; Q The minntes (Exhibit 34) say, here, " John Keith — It having been reported to the committee that Mr. Keith had been supplying the waterworks with coal at ^5 (Mr. Burns having refused to supply ihem at that price after the expiry of the contract), a discussion took place relativ^e to the matter. Mr. Keith made his expla- nation and the matter was allowed to drop. The secretary was in->trQcted to notify Mr. Keith to cease delivering anymore coal to the waterworks, except at fall prices." That was the waterworks contract for 1887-88. What time does it com- mence ? A. In May. Q. "The secretary read the advertisement calling for tenders, and it was moved, seconded and resolved that the proceedings of this and other meetings both as regards prices and other matters be considered strictly confidential " (Exhibit -34). They had an oath then ? A. Yes. Q. A statutory declaration ? A. Yes. 168 • Q. w. W00D4 Q. Were these deposited with you ? A. Yes. Q. And DO one could be permitted to be a member unless he made that statutory^ declaration ? A. Yes. Q. What is meant by being strictly confidential, that they came under the obli- gation of the oath ? A. Yes. Q. That is they were sworn to secrecy ? A. That is as regards the general meetings. It means the general conduct of the meetings, that their proceedings shall be held strictly confidential. Q. " It was resolved that all proceedings at this and all other meetings, both as regards prices and other matters, be strictly confidential " (Exhibit 34a). Da you urderetand that it Tvas to put them under the obligation of the oath ? A. I do Bot think it refers to that altogether, because it is in general terms. Q. The declaration reads: **I have carefully read the corstitution and by-lawa and special rules of the association, known as the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade, and that I will so long as I continue a member of the said associa- tion truly, faithfully and honestly observe, perform and keep the provisions thereof, and shall not commit or attempt to commit or allow others on my behalf to commit or attempt to commit any secret or other evasion or violation thereof " (Exhibit 346, p. 10)? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You have an oath also for the employes ? A. Yes. Q* The employes of members of the branch ? A. Yes, Q. The proceedings of these meetings were considered confidential ? A. Y'es. Q. And they were under the obligation of this oath to keep them confidential ? A. I don't think the oath applies to that at all. Q. What wa? the obligation ? A. It was merely with regard to the proceedings in committee that they were to be held confidential. Q. The waterworks contract was under consideration and it was resolved that the proceedings fhould be strictly confidential and so on ? A. Yes. Q. In reference to this oath who is the declaration made before? A, Before a oommissioner. By the Chairman: Q, 1 want to ask you a question with reference to this contract. The city asked for tenders for the supply of coal for the waterworks and the first thing your com- mittee did was what ? A. They consulted together about what they would do ? Q. And decided what ? A. To fix the prices, Q. Look at your minutes ? (Exhibit 34 a.) A. Well, that refers to the general business, not that in particular. Q. It does ? Well it happens to come there. " The Secretary read the adver- tisement calling for tenders and it was resolved that the proceedings at this and other meetings as regards prices and other matters be considered strictly confidential ?'* (Exhibit 34 a., p. 1970.) A. It happened to be in the minutes on that date and it was put down. Q. Here you have an important matter to decide and it was necessary to keep it secret and you renew your obligation. Do you give the public to understand that you have the price fixed so that any alderman in the city of Toronto would know what it was ? A. No. Q. That was on the 2lBt March, 1887. Was Elias Eogers a member of this coal flection then ? A. Yes. Q. Was he present at this meeting ? A. He was when the meeting commenced. He said that being a member of the council, he could not be present when that waft discussed. He had no interest in it. Q. Is that in the minutes ? A. No. Q. Have you a record of that ? A. No, but that I can say. Q. He was present at the beginning and when this thing came up ? A. He left. Q. Was this the regular meeting of the association ? A. Committee meeting. Q. A meeting of the executive? A. Yes. OOAL. 16d Q. A regular meeting of the executive committee ? A. I do not know whether it was a special or regular meeting. Q. Just answer my question, was it a regular or a special meeting ? A. It says special meeting, " This being a special meeting the minutes of previous meeting, were not read." (Exhibit 34.) Q. It was a special meeting then ? A. Yes. Q. Called for what purpose ? A. 1 suppose to discuss the waterworks con- tract for one thing, and anything else there might have been at the time. Q. You could tell from the minutes ? A. I do not make a note of what is on the notice paper. Q. A special meeting called for what? A. Anything that might come up. Q. The waterworks contract? A. Yes, I suppose the waterworks contract was one thing. Q. Just read the minutes and then just say what the important business at that meeting was ; what the special and particular business was ? A. I do not know^ exactly what you mean . Here are the minutes of the meeting. (Exhibit 34.) Q. I want you to read them for us. I want you to look at them for your own information. That was a special meeting ? A. Yes. Q. There was special business to be done. Now I ask you what this special and important business .was and you said you could not tell ? A. There was a notice of motion to fix the price. That was one thing. Q. What was done with that ? A. " The notice of motion to fix the price was brought before the meeting and it was moved, seconded and resolved that the price of stove and nut coal be $6 . 00 per ton, and 85.15 per ton delivered until the first of July, and that no contract be taken for delivery after that date at this price. No change in soft or Blosburgh. Half tons to be charged 15 cents extra." (Exhibit 34.). Then there comes Mr. Keith's case, and then comes the waterworks contract. Q. There wore three matters brought up at this meeting. The first was fixing the price of coal. At what did yon fix the price of anthracite coal to the consumers in Toronto ? A. 06 . 00, and egg and grate $5.75. Q. At the same meeting you fixed the price at which you were to supply the city for the year. What was that price ? A. $4.55 in the shed, and $4.70 in the boiler house. Q. Less what ? A. Less 5 cents paid to the other dealers. Q. Which left it how much ? A. $4.50 net. Q. So that you were supplying the city for $4.50 at the same time that you •were supplying the consumer at $6 and 85.75? A. That is egg coal brought in by water. But 1 would like you to aek some one in the trade about these prices. My opinion is ex parte. You are pressing me upon points now that I really have no Practical inlormation or knowledge about. Men in the trade can give it better than can. Q. We are not holding you responsible for any of this. You are the secretary and have the official record, and we are asking you from the official records which you hold. You are a coal dealer ? A. I have no interest, Q. Therefore there is no further responsibility to you, and we want it from those records ? A. If I make a statement here upon the bare fact, without all the circum- fcta^ces being known, it has a very different appearance. Take this one point: Here its coal, and there is apparently a difference of $1 per ton. Q. $1.25 per ton. You are a witness here, and if you will answer the questions "we will not hold you responsible. We have your minutes here, which are the official record ? A. Well, you put me in a corner by asking me questions about prices, and there are circumstances in connection with that which would qualify it and put a very different appearance upon it. Q. At that meeting of the 2l8t of May you fixed the price for city delivery at low much ? A. $6 and $5.75. Q. At the same meeting yon fixed the price of the waterworks contract at how much? A. $4.55 ap^ $4.70. f ItO G. W. WOOD. Q. For delivery in the shed ? A. $4.55. By Mr. Landry : Q. Would that be the same quality of coal ? A. Yes, it would be the same as "the ^5.15 delivered in the city. Q. The quality you delivered in the city at $4.55 in the shed is the same as yon delivered to the consumer at $5.75 ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. From that price to the city, how much was taken off ? A. Five cents per ton. Q. Leaving it how much less from the city contract ? A. $4.50. Q. How much to the consumer of the same quality ? A. $5.75. The coal that is delivered to the waterworks, 1 understand, comes in by water which makes a material difference. Q. Does aot the coal supplied to the consumer in June and July come in by "water? A. Yes ; but as far as I understand it they have to «arry it and screen it. However, ths is a question which I do not profess to understand. As e matter of justice, I would like it to go in as ex parte as far as possible. Things look so different in an ex parte statement without taking in the surroundings. Q. They both come in by water; but there is an advantage if they can deliver at the waterworks wharf. But this coal is delivered, as I understand it, delivered All the year round from May to June, from 1887 to the same period in 1888. So that it is not only for this coal that comes by water, but for the whole year round ? A. Yes, for tbe whole year round. By Mr. Landry : Q. Is It more expensive to deliver the one or the other ? A. Yes. Q. That is to deliver what you call to the waterworks and to t he consumer ? A.. They calculate it costs 40 cents per ton to deliver to the consumer, Q. I can understand it would be a little more difl&.cult but not to that extent. By the Chairman : Q. The waterworks contract was to be $4.55, and the next resolution was that all the proceedings of this meeting were to be considered strictly confidential. Did that mean that nobody was to let out what the price was that was ag reed on ? A. Yes. Q. It was to be kept secret ? A. Yes. Q. By all the members ? A. Yes. Q. Then the city asking for tenders was simply a farce, because there was only to be one real tender ? A. Yes ; practically that is what it amounted to. Q. The whole proceedings of the city council asking for tenders was a faroe because these men had fixed who was to get the contract and the price he had to pay for it ? A. That is what it practically amounted to. Q. It was bona fide on the part of the city council ? A. Yes. Q. As,far as the result is concerned it was all cut and dried and arranged before- iiand ; were there not other tenders to be put besides Mr. Bailey's ? A. I cannot tell you. I do not know. Q. Do you know that Mr. Bailey got the contract at the figures stated here? A. Yes ; of course they have the power to tender even less if they like . By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you know what figures he contracted at ? A. No, I do not know. Q. It would not be less than that ? A. He would be at liberty to make it less. The Chaieman. — I notice the following resolution in the minutes : " The water- works contract having been offered for, it was awarded to J. E. Bailey & Company for $600, who handed a cheque to the treasurer for that amount." (Exhibit 34.) By the Chairman ; Q. And Bailey, did he get the contract ? A. Yes, and lost some $5 ,000 to $7,000 Q. Did you fix the price of anything else but coal ? A. Yes, they fixed tha price of wood. Where a tender is for coal and wood they fix the price of wood also. Q.^ho got the contract for the public school supply ? A. No price was fixed, ^ho got the contract ? A. I do not know. Q.*W1 COAL. 171 Q. "At a special meeting called to fix prices for public school tender, moved by seconded by , that the coal be at present prices and wood prices be left open." (Exhibit 34.) We were speaking of the $600 city contract. What was the next one that was divided among the combine ? A. The hospital for $255. Q. Who got that contract ? A. Mr. Elias Eogers. Q, Was it put up at auction in the same way ? A. Yes. Q. How many tons were supposed to be required ? A. I have not the partica- lars here with me. Q. What were the prices ? A. $5.50 and $5.75. Q. What date was this? A. 18th of June, 1887. Q. What is the difference between the two prices ? A. The stove and nut coal. Q. You cannot tell how many tons were required ? A. No. Q. What was the next contract ? A. The Ontario Government. Q. What did you do with that ? A. The Conger Company got it for $610. Q. What were the prices? A. $5.50 and $5.75. Q. What date was that ? A. 2nd of July. Q. What quality of coal ? A. Hard coal. Q. This was stove and nut also ? A. Yes and there was soft coal as well ai $5.25, and hardwood $5.50 and pine $4. Q. What is the quantity for the Ontario Government? A. I cannot give it. Q. What was the next contract ? A. The House of Industry. Q. What was the price paid for that? A. $160, Q What were the prices paid there ? A. $5.50 and $5.75. Q. Who got the contract ? A. Mr. Keith. Q. What was the quantity ? A. I do not know. Q What was the next ? A. I think that was all. Q. These were all contracts for a year? A. Yes; they were to be delivered within a certain time. They were for a year's supply. Some were to be delivered so much a month, and others within the year. Q. What was that $1,200, item? A. One was for hard coal and another ftar fioft coal. I think it must have been a city contract. I do not seem able to find it in the book. Q. You know as a matter of fact that there was $2,800, in the pool ? A. Yes; there was about that. It was in the city. On the 5th of September, 1887, there waa a special meeting called for the fixing of city tenders. $5.73 for stove and chestnat, and $5.50 for egg and grate. Q. How much for soft ? A. Briar Hill $5.50 and Straits ville $5. Q. Give us the prices for anthracite? A. Stove and chestnut $5.75, egg and grate $5.50. Q. That was 40 cents below current prices ? A. Yes. Q. What were the quantities ? A. 500 tons of the two kinds of coal. Q. Who got the contract ? A. All tendered alike. Q. Who as a matter of fact did get the contract ? A. Mr. McConnell ; but be bas not been able to supply it. He has not been in the association. He was declared in default 18 months ago. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. His tender was in September, 1887 ? A. He was out then. Q. He tendered outside of the combine then ? A. Yes ; there was no premioia paid in this case. Q. Do you know what Mr. McConnell's figures were ? A. No ; but he waa. unable to fill it and they had to come back to the association. Q. How are they being supplied now ? A. That was the thing these gentlemen were fined for, one of these men who took over these orders was in the case ot tbecity« Q. Did they violate their oath in doing that? A. Toe excuse they made waa ibat they thought they were doing nothing wrong. By the Chairman : Q. Did the association decide that they had violated their oath ? A. Yes ; jooi of them. Q. Who are the other ones? A. Cowan and Eay, representing 25 shares each. By the Chairman : Q. Two men have 25 shares, 2 men 48 shares, and 2 men having 2 shares ? A» Yes. They don't deal in coal they simply get a dividend on their stock. Q. Who are they? A. W. D. Boss and H. H. Cameron. Q. What is their business ? A. One is a gentleman at large, and the other is a book-keeper. Q. How much have they received ? A. $446. Q. Is that for each, on an investment of $200. 8—12 178 PETER LARMONTH. I = By Mr. Boyle : Q. They have'nt received benefit ? A, No, sir, we haven't declared any divi- dend. Q. These other men have already received on account of dividend — Glemow has received $1,800 on account, and some one else $2,600 ? A. Yes. Q. And three members of the company $4,800 each on account of this year's profits? A. Yes. Q. $446 received by two members ? A. It was their earnings of last year on $200 stock. By Mr. McDougall : Q. From whom do you import ? A. The Delaware and Lackawanna Company, and the Delawaro and Hudson and Ogdensburgh. The Cartage Company import practically nothing, they buy through the dealers here. Q. Who are the dealers ? A. C. C. Eay and Company, McCuUongh and Butter- worth. By Mr. Landry : Q. "What is the total number of tons sold last year? A. 31,000 tons. Q, What was the profit? A. The gross profit on that was $33,483. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. In vvhat space of time? A. The season of last year. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Ending with ? A. The 1st of May. By Mr. Landry : Q. What was the average price per ton it was sold at during the season ? A. It commenced at $6.60 in the spring, and it went up to $7.50 last winter. Q. This is fixed and regulated by th^ directors, you say ? A. It went up $1 a ton. Q. That going up was fixed by the directors ? A. Yes. * Q. Tell me what profits the other people dealing in coal had. Is there any other person who deals in coal outside of yourselves ? A. Certainly. Q. There are others ? A. Yes. Q. Who have nothing to do with this company ? A. Yes. Q. Who are they ? A. Easton was one, and I think Harris deals in coal. That is all I know of just now. Q. They deal directly and have their own customers ? A. Yes. Q. Do they sell or do they undersell your price ? A. Yes. Now and then I hear of a cutting of 25 cents per ton. I think generally they sell at the same price. Q. With no understanding ? A. No understanding whatever. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Why don't they come into this association ? A. I don't know. Q. Were they notified ? A. I could not say. Q. Do they buy from the same parties ? A. Yes. Q. Your arrangement is simply within yourself? A. Yes. Q. Have the American companies that you buy from put any pressure on you to make an exclusive arrangement ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Landry : Q. And you have no arrangement with them that they must sell to nobody ^Ise? A. Certainly not. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Do you by your arrangement, or have this company organized, effect a sav- ing in any way in the delivery of coal ? A. There is a great saving in the delivery. Q. How much ? A. I suppose at least 10 cents per ton. Q. You think you can deliver 10 cents cheaper than the other two men ? A, Yes, I think so. By Mr. Landrj^: Q. On account of your organization ? A. Yes. OTTAWA COAL CARTAGE COMPANY. 179 By Mr, Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. As to the saving ? A. I think there is a saving. One man attends to 35 or 40 horses instead of atteniing to only -4 or 5 horses, and there is a saving of a weigh master. By the Chair man : Q. That would enable you to sell coal cheaper? A, Yes. Q. Do you sell it cheaper ? A, I think the amount of this thing was, that coa was cheaper last year than it ever was before by $ L a ton . By Mr. McDougall : Q. Is this anthracite you refer to as $6.50 ? A- Yes. By Mr. Guillet : . Q. What was it this current year ? A. I think it was 50 cents a ton more than I it was la«t year. ^ Q. That would be from $6.76 to $8 ? A. Yes. Q. That is now ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Can you account for that ? A. Coal is dearer. By Mr. Landry : Q. You buy it dearer ? A. Yes. By the Chairman ; Q. As a matter of fact, it was sworn to here, that for the three months of May, June and July, the price was the same in Oswego, in 1886 as in 1887 ? A. Yes, but we purchased afterwards. Q. For these three months, it was sworn to here, that coal was the same in 1886 as in 1887 ? A. I don't remember it now. Q. Grive us the price that this coal was delivered to your merchants ? A. I haven't the prices. I simply credit it from the invoices at the end of the month. Q. We want the prices that this coal was delivered to the Cartage Company for, and the prices it was delivered for each month ? A. I cannot tell yoa. Q. You must give us the information ? A. I simply credit the invoices for the month . Q. No price mentioned per ton ? A. No, simply the quantity. Q. Have you the invoices ? A. They are in the possession of the Coal Cartage Company. Q. You are the secretary of the company ? A. Yes. Q. We want that. We require you to bring that, if this book does not give it ? A. It does not give the quantity or the price. By Mr. McDougall : Q. Do you sell by the long ton or short ? A. Short. Q. Buy the same way? A. No, long ton. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You say yourself never approached these outside men, do you know of any others who done so ? A. I could not say. Q. Were there any resolutions passed ? A. No. Q. You have a minute book ? A. Yes. Q. Did you bring that ? A. No, there was no minute. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have your different members for taking orders, separate offices ? A. Yes, Q, Do they employ any clerks? A. Yes, every one of them. Q. As to the rental of these places, do you charge as part of the expenses ? A. Not of this company. The profit I mentioned to you is the gross. They have all their office expenses apart from this. Q. Do we understand you to say that the members of the company individually, will go to the personal expense of securing orders, and that the benefit of these orders goes to the company ? A. Yes, sir. Q. As a matter of fact, does it not seem strange that they would do that? A. I think not. They are satisfied with the profits they receive from the Coal Cartage Company, and they pay their office expenses out of it. 3-12i 180 PETER LARSIONTH. Q. The profits are determined by the atnoant of stock that each member sells ? A. The amount of profits. Q, The amonnt of stock? A. The profits are based on the amount of stock. The share of profit is based on the amount of stock, but certainly the profits of the business are simply on the sales the same as any other business. Q. Have these different members any other profits out of the transactions, other than the gross profits of the company ? A. No, sir ; none. Q. One member may go to the expense of $3,000 or 84,000, while another goes to the expense of only $1,000, in taking orders ? A. Exactly* By Mr. Gasgrain : Q. They are satisfied with the result, at any rate? A. They are satisfied with the resnlt. By Mr. Landry : Q. Iff understand you those who deal in coal directly as individuals and belong to the company, they are not paid for any expenses they may be put to beyond that ? A. No, sir. Q. You take those who have stock in horses and carts, and such like, are they not paid for these services outside of the profits ? A, Certainly not. Q. They are not ? A. No. Q. These horses and carts and men hired, by whom are they paid? A. The men are employed by the Coal Cartage Company and are paid by the Coal Cartage Company. Q. Out of these gross profits ? A. Yes. Q. These profits are net as far as the company is concerned ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. This $33,000 is net? A. Yes. Q. You are speaking of that gross ? A. It is gross in a way, the dealers have to pay their rents out of it. Q. What were the gross profits of the company ? A. I will tell you, sir ; $4,639. By Mr. Landry : Q. What is the total amount of their receipts, can you tell me? A. The total amount of receipts ? Q. Yes ? A. The amount of coal sold ? Q. Yes ? A. $24,730. By the Chairman : Q. What is the expense account now ? A. Well, I will give you that. The gross profit was $4,639. The cartage on coal, $11,902, and the expense account was $1,539. Q. That is the expenses outside of the cartage ? A. Yes. Then there i8 an industry account which is $2,291. Q. How had the cartage company interest ? A. They have. It costs $62,000 above their capital to run their business. Q. These individuals don't pay for auy coal ? A. They have paid for their coal, Q. The coal ihat you take possession of at the railway station, who pays for that coal ? A. The Cartage Company pays at once for it The company pays these individuals every month. Q. Then the individuals haven't any capital at all in it ? A. Well, yes. These names I mentioned have $15,U00 in it. Q. Outside of their stock they have no money in the coal business outside of $15,000 slock, and you paid for the coal as it came every month, and the private individual then don't pay any money for the coal ? A. He had to pay for the coal. We paid him and he paid the party from whom he purchased every month. Q. The money was simply handed over? A. Exactly. Q. Yon handed it to him and he handed it to the man from whom he purchased ? A. I think so. Q. So he had nothing except his capital in this at all ? A. Except what capital they emjploy in their different offices. They have sometimes from $16,000 to $20,000 worth of coal out, not paid for. OTTAWA COAL CARTAGB COMPANY. 181 Q. What was the interes* account? A. 82,291 for the year. Q What was the total amount of coal snies ? A. The sales wore S24,'r30, and the gross profits were $4,639, then loss the cartage and expense aecoant $3,>j50. By Mr Landry : Q. There mast be some mistake there, $11,000 from $40,000 would leave less than $33,000? A. Yes. Q. What was the net profit? A. $33,000. Mr. BoYLB— $40,000 is after deducting the cartage? Mr. Landry — Oh, yes. By the Chairman : Q. What redaces it? A. There is the expense account and interest to come off that $3,850 and $3,510 paid to Mr. Clemow. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Can you sum up the net profits at so much per cent, so that the Committee can see the result of the operations ? A. That is the net profit on the whole busineea for the year. Q. What would it amount to, at so much per cent — By the Chaibman— The capital was $15,000 and the net profit $33,000. The result would be about 222 per cent. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Is that your conclusion ? A. That is about it. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you any idea of the expenses of condacting these different offices? A* It was estimated that it cost them about 48 cents a ton — that is, these different officjes — which would leave them a profit of a little over 50 cents per ton. Q. Has no return been made to the company by these members of their ex- penses? A. JNo. Q. Do they never express any dissatisfaction at the apparently unequal way of doing things ? A. No. Q. Do these members who have just two shares each who received $446 each, last year, contribute in any way to the success of the company ? A. No, sir, they are merely stock holders and directors. By Mr, Wood ( Westmoreland') : Q. They didn't fell coal ? A. They did not sell any coal. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Yet they participate equally in the benefit they receive with those who do? A. Yes. The Chairman — This question of profit ; you said the net profits after all ex- penses were $33,4^3 on 31,000 tons of coal. That is $1.08 per ton ? Q. And the office expenses are how much ? A. 48 cents per ton. Q. That \9ould leave 60 cents per ton net profit ? A. Yes. Q. What is it that cost 48 cents ? A. Office expenses. Between $500 and $600 tor rental, and the clerks cost from $1,200 to $1,500 a year. Mb. Boyle — It is an extraordinary thing to me that that should come out of the private resources of the different members. The Chairman — What we haven't had explained yet, is what object a man would have in selling 1000 tons if he could make the same money by sellicg only 10 tons and no farther expenses. Mb. Landry— The 9,000 would have to be sold by some one else for him to make the same profit. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth). Q. That arrangement could not last very long ? A. No. By the Chairman ; Q. The witness says it cost 48 cents per ton for office expenses ? A. That is merely an estimate. I don't know it as a fact. That is simply an estimate given me by one of the directors. 182 PETER LABMONTH. By Mr. Bain {WeniworiK); Q. 01 course the witness cannot give that from his own peisonal knowledge? A. No. By Mr. Landry : Q, There are very large profits made. Now the question comes how has it affected trade. Can you tell us how it has affected the trade from your own know- ledge ? A. From my own knowledge I believe it has been a benefit to the poor man's trade in Ottawa. Q. Has it been a benefit to the consumers? A. I think it has been a benefit, as the poor man buys more coal in winter than the rich man. By the Chairman ; Q. Is coal dearer this year than it was last year ? A. Yes, 50 cents per ton. Q. Tnere was 50 cents duty taken off that makes it $1 ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know that at the first of this year it was at the same price as the first of last year ? A.I know it was. Q. Later on how much dearer was it ? A. I could not tell you. Q . How can you make the assertion that it is a benefit comparing it with the time that there was no combination ? A. Because I know it is so, because at that lime coal went up to $8 a ton. Q. That is to the consumer, you do not know what the price of coal was at Os- wego or where it was bought ? A. No. Q. Well, how can you tell whether this combination is a benefit to the poor man. You say you cannot tell the cost price then, how can you tell that the dealers are making lees profits than they did before ? A. That 1 cannot say. Q. How can you say ? A. It is a known fact. Q. How can you prove it ? A, It is simply that coal is cheaper last year than it was the year before, most of the winter it was $7.50 and the year before it was $8, and the year before $8.50. Coal was cheaper last winter than any winter since I have been rn Ottawa. Q. About these two men who had these two shares I want to understand what their profit was, how much did each man invest? A. $-00. They are simply brought in to make up the requisite number of directors. Q. The Ij share men got $446 for themselves V A. Yes ; they are stockholders holding an annual amount. They are required to hold two shares. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Without doing anything at all they make this $446 ? A. Yes. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. As a matter of fact before the closing of navigation, when the stock of coal IB in the city for the winter, do the company you speak of command the market alone? A. No, sir ; there are other dealers in the city, Q. To a large extent? A. Not very large. Q. That is exactly the point I was coming to, whether their stock can influence yours ? A.I could not give any evidence with regard to that. By the Chairman : Q. What has been your prices on the sale of coal daring the fall and winter ? A. It went up to $8 per ton. Q. Give me the prices right alon^ for each month ? A. That I can't do. Q. Do they change every month ? A. Not every month. Q, Are you the secretary of the company ? A. I don't kiow. I simply post the invoices ; I don't look after the prices. I look after the details of the office, but I don't look at the prices. Q. You have the minutes of the proceedings of the company ? A.. Yes. Q. You have the invoices ? A. Yes. Q. I think it is necessary to have the invoices^here and also the; urinate book? A. All right. By Mr. Landry : Q. Do you icep the minutes of the directors' meetings ? A. Theipe is nothing in them. I OTTAWA COAL CABTAGE COMPANY. 18^ Q. Would there not be their resolutions fixing the prices? A. No; I think they have minutes of their own. Q. Who was their secretary ? A. One of the committee. The chairman asked if it was the pleasure of the Committee to ask the witness to produce the invoices and minute book, and the Committee assented. By Mr, Boyle : Q. We have got the gross result of this business and also the net result ; we have got the organization of the company and the purposes for which it was or* ganized. Will there be any new light on the subject by getting these minutes and papers ? The Chairman — I think so, we want to see the whole of the operations of this arrangement. It seems to be the most scientific organization that we have met with, Mr. Bain (Wentworlh) — And the best paying one. By Mr. McKay : Q. Have you askea the witness yet how much it costs to deliver a ton of coal to a customer ? A. About 46 cents, that is the average. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you a statement of the individual orders of these large dealers* A. I have separate accounts in this book. Q. Can you give me the quantities of each important one ? A. I can give the amount, but not the quantity. Q. Are they e early equal ? A. Yes, they are nearly equal. Q. What are the figures ? A. There is a good deal of addition in that. Q. You can figure that up and present them before the examination closes. (The witness a ftei wards gave the figures as follows ; Mr. Butterworth, sales 161,5 11 ; Mr. McCtillongh, sales $53,588 ; Mr. Bay, sales $52,227 ) By Mr. McKay : Q« Did 5 on hire teams outside of your own teams ? A. Yes, sometimes. Q. What did you pay them ? A. I don't know, in the fall months of Septem- ber and October, 1 think that they got extra horses. Q. What is the sum you paid fall or winter ? A. I could not say. Q. What did you pay your hired teams generally ? A. I could not say. By Mr. Landry : Q. Who attends to that ? A. We have a man attending to all that. Q. He is paid through the year ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( WeniwcrtK) : Q. You are sins ply the book- keeper ? A. That is all I do. Q. Where do the yards come in ? Do they belong to the company or private individuals ? A. They belong to private individuals. Q. Each one has his own yard ? A. Yes. Q. Part of the expenses then are for rent of the yard, or are they not allowed for yards ? A. No, they have the yards individually, atd we pay the men and horses and all expenses connecled with delivery of coal. Q. Does each man have a yard of his own ? A. Yes. Q. Are these yards about the same size ? A. I think the sheds are about the same size. Q. I understood you, that the expenses of the individual ccal dealers have been estimated at 48 cents per ton ? A. Yes. Q. Is the use of these yards included in that 48 cents ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. It does not cost 48 cents to deliver a ton of coal ? A. That means the cart- age and putting it in the shed and delivering it to a customer. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. Where is this coal puicbased? A. From different companies. From the Delaware and Lackawanna atd from the J 'elaware and Hudson. Q. Does that company purchase as a company ? A. They purchase from these dealers here. 184 W. H. EASTON. Q. Each individual dealer orders coal, the same as at his own yard ? A. And Bells it to the company. Q. He orders it from any company he chooses ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain QWentworth) : Q. This is all anthracite coal we are discussing? By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. So I understand it. Each dealer buys without consulting the others ? A. Certainly. Q. There is no joint action ? A. There is no joint action. Q. The invoices of each dealer are charged to the company ? A. Yes. ' By Mr. Guillet: Q How do you contract for coal for any organization ? A. It is generally by tender. By the Chairman : Q. You have a company and this company regulated the price at which coal Bhall be sold ? A. Yes. Q. Is there any penalty for anyone selling under that price ? A. I^ot that I know of. Q. There is no object in selling it under ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you tender as a company when supplying coal ? A. No, sir; We never tender as a company. Q. Each individual tenders ? A. Yes. They may arrange among themselves, I could not say. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. How do they regulate the quantity of their orders if each buys what he chooses without consulting the others, they might get an overstock ? A, They must consult with regard to the amount purchased. Oh yes, I think so. W. H. Easton, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation? A. Coal dealer. Q. What is your address ? A. Canal Basin, Ottawa. Q. You are a dealer in coal ? A. Yes. Q. Are you in this combine or corporation which has been formed for the regulation of matters of coal ? A. No, sir. Q. Have they asked you at any time to become a member or join in with them ? A. Yes. Q. But you have refused ? A. Yes. Q. It has been stated by tbe last witness, as his opinion, that the result of the formation of this company to regulate coal matters, gave the citizens of Ottawa cheaper coal. You have knowledge of the fact. What is your knowledge ? A. It gives them dearer coal, certainly. Q. In what way ? A. For the simple reason that the combination control the market. Ttxey make these prices of coal just as they wish. If coal was worth $8 per ton last year and the duties taken off from last year, coal should bd selling now $7.50. They have raised the price to $8, and of course being in the ring, they have the whole thing within themselves. They can regulate the prioe. Q. A coal dealer in Toronto said the net profits were not more than 25 cents per ton ; what do you think of that statement ? A. I think if he added 6 1 to it, he would get nearer right. Q. Is that 25 cents correct ? A. I don't think it. I don't know any man who would go into business to the extent of $24,000 or $25,000 and only get a profit of 25 cents per ton on it. Q. Has this ooal combination interfered with other persons dealing in coal ? A. Yes. COAL. 185 Q. Have they interfered with you? A. Yes. Q. In what way ? A. They make me pay about $1.75 per ton extra for coal. By the Chairman : Q. These invoices read the 25th August — Messrs. Baston and Company 31 tons gross, 35 tons net, egg coal $5.10— that is for the net ton — $ 17 ».78, When was that ? A. The 25th August, 1887. Q. The 25th A.ugust, 1887, rat coal $5.25, 93 tons of nut opal at $5.25? A. That is delivered in Ottawa on car-Ji. Q. August the 18th, 1887, 58 tons of nut coal at $5.25, $305. By Mr. Boyle : Q. "What kind of coal is that? A. Stove coal. Q. That is dearor than egg ? A. Stove coal is dearer. Chestnut is the same price. Egg is 20 cents a ton less By the Chairman : Q. Have you any other invoice prices ? A. Yes. (Hands invoices to Chair- man.) Q. l^ovember the 10th, 1887, Messrs. Easton & Company bought of James Swift 22 tons stove coal at $7.05 delivered in Ottawa — How do you account for the advance from $5.25 to $7.05— that is $1.80 per ton ? Q. Here is November the 11th, 17 tons of nut coal at $7.05. Here is the same price as that stove. Why is this difference of $1.80 ? A. We were getting our coal through Swift directly from the Delaware and Lackawanna Coal Company and we got the coal. This is the wholesale price, $5.25 is the wholesale price, but Mr. Switt had the difference between the gross and the net ton and we were working on Mr. Swift's capital in paying him the difference between the gro^s and the net, 2-40 pounds on the ton. By Mr Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Are all these prices for the gross tons? The Chairman— 1 have quoted all the net prices. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland): Q. Thoreis $1.80 difference between the two net. Go on now? A. We could not get any more coal. Swift was shut off from getting coal from the Delaware and Lackawanna Coal Company, by the action of the coal ring in Ottawa. Q. Who is Swilt? A. A dealer in Kingston. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You say he was shut off by the action of the ring in Ottawa ? A. He could not get his coal from the Delaware and Lackawanna Company, because we ware sell- ing against the coal ring in Ottawa, but he could get the coal he requiro i for him- sell on the understanding that he was not getting it for us in Ottawa on his order. Q. The Delaware and Lackawanna people told him that ? A. Yos, sir. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. They refused to deliver ii ? A. They refused to sell him any coal that would come into Ottawa, that is in this district, against the interests of the coal business here. By the Chairman : Q. Y'ou paid $1.80 more, how does that affect your business ? A. All the money I made last fall and summer I lost through this. During the summer I delivered 5 or 6 tons on fair sized orders to keep them going, and of course they would not pay me for this coal unless I finished the orders. I had taken these orders at $6.50 and had to pay $7.05 for the coal ; the cartage was 30 cents and the weighing 5 cents, which brought the price of my coal to me up to $7,40 per ton, and I delivered that coal at §0.50. I had to do it to get back my money for the coal which I had been delivering through the city. Q . What was this ring — I suppose we may call it a ring ? What were they selling CO il for when you were selling it at $6.50? A. They were selling it at Q. You were selling it at $6.50 ? A. Yes. 186 W. H. BA8T0N. Q. Did you make the contracts for the season $6.50 ? A. I made contracts with different parties for the delivery of 40, 50 or 60 tons at $6.50, and when I was shut off from getting this coal direct from the mines I could get no coal, and Swift sent over to Oswego and brought over a schooner load of 500 tons of egg, and 300 or 400 tonB of stove and chesnut which was landed at the Kingston dock, and it cost $2.00 per ton to carry that coal from Kingston to Ottawa by rail over the Kingston and I^embroke Eailway and the Canadian Pacific Eailway. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. You are in the habit of contracting during the summer for autumn deliveries in that way ? A. Yes. Q. As matter oi fact that is usually the case is it not ? A. Yes. Q. How do you eave yourself. Are you able to get deliveries in advance fiufScient to enable you to deliver all the coal during the summer, that is your summer orders ? A. If they hadn't shut off the supply I could have filled these orders at $6.50 per ton. Q. Swift would have delivered to you through November notwithstanding the rise of price at the mines ? A. It was simply this. If Swift could get the coal from the mines of courpe I could have delivered it. Q. I am only asking as to the economy of the business. I understood from the other coal dealers that it was usual for the companies on the American side to put up the coal about the 1st November, and refuse to contract except from month to month, for each month's delivery ? A. They generally raise the price from 10 cents to 25 cents per ton, and if you contract for 300 or 400 tons cf coal to be delivered at once you can get it. Q. If they do advance 25 cents you can still stand it? A. Ye? ; the different dealers try to get all the orders they can during the summer; if I could get an order and m£ke 25 cents per ton we would take the orders. By the Chairman : Q. You heard Larmonth's statement, that coal was eold cheaper in Ottawa because of this combination, what do you think of that statement? A. I cannot see it. Q. The combination prevented you from selling and being able to sell at $6.50 per ton? A. Yes. Q. They sold at $7.50, advancing the price $1.00 is it? A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. I have a statement here : Columbus and Hocking Coal and Iron Company, Miners of Straitsville, Monday Creek and Hocking Coal ; CoLUMBA, Ohio, Ist January, 1888. W. H. Easton, Ottawa Ont. Dear Sir, — For the present the following will be our price for coal per ton of 2,000 pounds delivered on cars at mines $4.50. Freight from mines payable by con- fcignee $l.ii0. Total $5.fc0. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What year was that ? The Chaibman.— 1st of January, 1888. By the Chairman : Q. This is soft coal, is it ? A . American soft coal for open grates. Q. What was the price in Ottawa on that date ? A. $8.50 per ton. Q. And the price delivered here was $6.80 ? A. And 60 cents added to that for duties. Q. That would make it $6.40, and there would still be $2.10 per ton profit. Mr. Fisher.— That would still be a gross profit of $2.10. The Chairman. — There is also 46 cents expenses for cartage which would leave fl.64. ^ ^ WiTMESfi.— Our cartage is 30 cents. COAL. 1ST By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is that the cartage from the yard and to the consumer ? A. Where we can we deliver all the coal from the cars to the consumer, and get it delivered at 30 cents per ton. Q. If you put it into the yard and then deliver it ? A. It would cost 60 cents, 30 cents putting it into the yard and 30 for taking it out. Q. Do you deliver most of it from the oars? A. We [generally deliver right from the cars to the consumer. By Jl/r. G-illmor : Q. Po the company do the same, do they deliver from the cars to the consumer ? A. Yes as much as they can, of course; if there is a big rush in, they generally dump their coal to keep the cars clear. Of course, along the summer, when orders are not rushing, they put the coal in sheds where they hold it over for the winter. Q. They estimate their cost of carting at 46 cents, you say it is 30 cents ? A. We put in, nearly, 1,500 or 2,000 tons. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. 30 cents if you deliver it direct from the cars? A. Yes. Q. If you put it in the yard and deliver it to consumers it is about 60 cents ? A. Yes. Q. What would you consider an average? A. Well, you pay 30 cents carting it to the yard and iO cents out again, that is 60 cents. Q. I mean taking the whole delivery of the[coal,for the year, some from thecars and some from the yaid. What would the whole delivery average per ton ? Mr. Larmonth said it ccst them about 46 cents all the year round, per ton, on the aver- age, taking what was delivered direct and what was yarded. Would that be a fair average between 30 cents and tO cents ? A. Yes. When you come to figure it up —putting it into the sheds. Of course there is a great deal of this coal comes in during the summer by navigation, and it costs 10 cents per ton to take it olf the barges and put it into the sheds, that is just carrying it oflf and dumping it. By Mr. McKay : Q. You lost some money by filling the orders you took at $6,50 per ton ? A. Yes. Q. You took these orders before the coal had advanced in price? A. We took, the orders along from August to September. Q. You took them at 86.50 per ton ? A. Yes. Q. Did the other dealers charge the same price ? A. Yep, the same price. They were selling at $6 50 at the time I took these orders. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Last summer? A. Yes. By Mr. McKay : Q. How much did coal advance after that? A. It advanced in the fall. Q. That is the time you filled your orders ? A. I was filling orders in August and September. Q. Several other dealers were in the same position ? A. Just in the same position. The Chaieman. — That is not the statement Mr. Easton made. He said that they got the price advanced on him. Mr. Swift of Kingston was supplying him at 16.10 and $5.25 per ton, at that time, when these men interfered and prevented Mr. Swift from supplying him at the price he might have supplied him and the price was advanced $1.80 per ton. By Mr. McKay (Jlamilton) : Q. Yes; but would not the prices have advanced to Mr. Swift later on ? A. Only 20 cents, but he was shut out from giving it to me. By Mr. Boyle: Q. 20 cents only was the advance ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. 20 cents on Swift and $1.80 on Easton ? A. Yes. By Mr. Landry : Q. To whom had it only advanced 20 cents? A. Mr. Swift. Mr. Swift told me personally he could not get the coal. 18S W. H. EA8T0N. Q. That may be proper evid^^nce to come before the Committee, but I think we ought to have Mr. Swift here to know the reasons Have you any evidence that this company, here in Ottawa, have manipulated this matter in order to get the price raised to you ? A. They have told me themselves distinctly. Q. Who was it told you this ? A. Mr. Eay. Q. That is one belonging to the company ? A. Yes. Q. That they had an arrangement. What did he tell you? A. Mr. Eay and Mr. Butterworth both told me distinctly, that they were perfectly justified in having me shut out of bringing coal into Ottawa against them, when they were getting their coal from the Delaware and Lackawanna Company, and that I was getting coal in when they could not get coal. Of course they use ten times the amount of coal I handle, but I had coal under contract herew hen they would be out of coal ; they object to this, and, of course, used all the influence they had. Q. What did they tell you ? A. They told me just what I am saying, that they were perfectly justified in shutting us out from getting coal from the Delaware and Lackawanna Coal Companv to work against them. Q, Did they tell you how they managed? A. I know they managed through the Delaware and Lackawanna Coal Company. Q. How do you know that ? A. Swift gave me to understand so. By Mr Gillmor : Q. You could not get your coal ? A. No. He sent over and brought over coal by schooner. By Mr. Landry : Q. Do you know that this company here in Ottawa were getting their coal at $1.80 less than they were willing to give it to you? A. Yes, I know that they can deliver coal here just as cheap as in Kingston. Q. Do you know that they were, as a matter of fact, delivering this coal here at $1.80 less than they offered to deliver it to Swift? A. Yes. I am certain that that coal was delivered by the Delaware and Lackawanna Company at that time, and it would not stand over $5.05 net, delivered here. Q. You are aware that they delivered it at Kingston for that amount, but have you any knowledge that they delivered it here for that amount? A. No, sir, I cannot tell that. Q. You surmised they did ? A. Yes. Q. You surmised if it cost you that in Kingston, you surmised that they paid that there? A. He got his coal from Oswego. Swift got his coal from Oswego and brought it by cargoes to Kingston. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How much advance did that cost you to bring it here by rail? A. $2.00 per ton. By Mr. Landry : Q. That wasn't from the same company that you were in the habit of getting iufrom? A. It was the Cook Company of Oswego. 1 know that he is the agent for the Delaware and Lackawanna Company. Q. He could not get it from that company only at the advanced rate ? A. Swift is a heavy dealer. Ho can get it at the same rate as they can get it here. When he could not get this coal for me he brought this from Oswego to help me up. Q That made it more expensive to you on account of freights? A. The freight from Kings on here was extra. He told me he could deliver it just a-* cheap at Ottawa as be could to parties at Kingston. By Mr. Quillet : Q Because the transporting from the mines to Kingston would be no more than from ihe mines to Ottawa? A. Yes. By Mr. Landry : Q. Did you hear the evidence given to the effect that they were selling to other people at not less than they sold to themselves. Here we have one witness who says they have no arrangement. I understood him to say that they had no arrangements to prevent people from selling at what price they liked to anybody else ? — COAL. 189 The Chairman. — This meant the people that this ring, here, sold to. Mr. Landry. — The people from whom they buy had no arraQgements that they should not sell to anylx)dy else. The Chaibman. — He is positive in his evidence that he received coal at these prices until they raised it. By Mr. Landry : Q. Have you any positive evidence that it was not raised on these people here beyond 20 cents per ton ? A. I don't know. Q. Did you yourself apply directly to this company to buy from them and ask what-they would sell to you for ? A. I have, before I negotiated with Swift. Q. How did you find it ? A. I could not do any dealings with them. Q. Does Mr. Swift belong to this company here? A. No, sir, he is a heavy dealer. Q. Was it before the formation of this company or since ? A. Ye?, since. Q. Then haven't you the same reasons to surmise that Mr. Swift has also an underetanding with this company that he shall not sell to small dealers ? A. No, or he would not have sent eo much coal. Q. You told him they would not supply you ? A. They would not supply me. Swift could buy from tne Delaware and Lackawanna Company. Q. Didn't you surmise that they would not supply smaller dealers, but that they must do it through him ? Was there not an understanding. Can you not easily surmise from that, that Swift had an understanding that they would not sell to smaller dealers ? Wasn't he making a profit on you ? A. Certainly. Q. You could not get a contract from the company ? A. No. By Mr. Bain {WerdwortK) : Q. Why did the company refuse you? A. Of course the only way I can tell you is this, that the Delaware and Lackawanna Company was selling coal to dealers, and the Delaware and Hudson Company didn't wish to sell outside in Ottawa. They won't sell to a small dealer, I have tried the Hudson Canal Company and mostly all the companies, and they would not sell, because I didn't belong to the combination in Ottawa. By Mr Landry : Q. Did they write you ? A . Warren, of Ogdensburg, told me he could not sell me a pound of coal, because, if he did, the coal dealers in Ottawa would not buy from him. I could not get coal that way and I had to buy it from Mr. Swift. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. You tried these agents of the various companies ? A. To give you an idea of it, McCulloagh, when I was paying $5.25 per net ton, was paying $5.25 per ton gross— that was his profit. By Mr. Fi&her : Q. Swift has been in the habit of supplying you with coal up to a certain time, and then he could not longer supply you with coal at the same price. Did he give you any reason ? A. He told me he could not get the coal from the Delaware and Lackawanna Coal Company. Q . They would deliver it to him at Kingston, but they would not deliver to you at Ottawa ? A. That is what I understand. Q. Then you have to buy your coal through Mr. Swift delivered at Kingston, and you had to bring it here. They would deliver it to him at Kingston to do what he liked with it ? A. He bought it at Oswego. Q. They would not sell it to him at Kingston, to sell to you 7 A. Yes. He could not s;et it for me. He could send to Oswego and get all he wanted. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. That means, it costs you about $2 per ton more ? A. Yes. By Mr, Landry : Q. Do I understand yon that he could get all he wanted and do what he liked with it ? A. Yes, at Kingston. 190 W. H. EA8T0N. Q. Do you know whether at Kingston, the same company would sell to the email buyer the same as they sold to Mr. Swift, then delivering it at Kingston ? A. I cannot say that. Q. Haven't you got reasons to believe that they would not ? A. I don't know how many dealers there are there. Q. You are not aware that there is any ring in Kingston ? A. They are selling coal there for 06 per ton when we are selling coal here at $6.50 and $7 per ton. They would keep it at that price, but here they would raise it each month. Q. Previous to the formation of this company, here, were you in the business ? A. Yes. Q. Your profits were then better than they have been on coal since ? A. Yes, By Mr. Fisher ; Q. At that time you got your coal at the same price as any other dealer here ? A. I used to get coal from other parties. We would run boats from Kingston and we would load lumber here for Kingston and return the barges with coal. By Mr. Landry : Q. How did you get your coal before the formation of this company ? Did you get it from these large companies ? A. No, sir, I got it from G. W. McCallough. Q. Would he not make profits ? A. Yes, I suppose. Q. You got it from him at that time ? A. Yes. Q. Did he refuse to sell you coal now? A. I wish to buy coal, and they would not sell me unless I got all my coal from him. Q . Previous to the combination you could get coal just as you wanted it ? By Mr. Boyle : Q. Yoo say you were asked to join this Coal Cartage Company ? A. The Cartage Company and the coal dealers I considered all one. Q. You were asked to join that association ? A. Yes. Q. Were you ever asked to join this Coal Cartage Company ? A. I don't know, it is only that McCullough asked me to come in and sell the coal at the same price and keep up prices. Q. When was this ? A. Last summer. Q. What inducements did he hold to you ? A. He didn't hold out any induce- ments. Q. Did he represent to you that it would be to your advantage? A. Yes. Q. In what way? A. We would keep the price at $6.50. At the time that they were selling it, we found out that they were selling it to parties under that price. For instance, gentlemen like J. E. Booth and B. B. Eddy would buy 100 or 200 tons of coal from coal dealers and they would get it at less than if they only bought 10 tons. I knew that if I went into the arrangement, I would not have & chance of selling much coal. Q. Did McCullough represent to you that in the event of your joining the ring or association that you would be able to buy coal any cheaper and on any better terms than if you were an outsider ? A. No, sir. Q. Generally, in your own business, did you do the same thing, give a little bet- ter rates to those who bought heavily ? A. I did. By the Chairman: Q. You considered that it would not be to your interests to join in with this combination? A. No. By Mr. Boyle: Q. They could not offer you any inducements ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. You think you would not be able to sell as much coal at their prices? Ai No. Q. They would have it all to themselves ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What time did you say this combination commenced ? A. I cannot tell yon. The Chairman.— lir. Larmonth telle us the Ist of July, 1886. I By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. When did the organization first prevent you from buying coal? A. I can- not tell you that; all I know is the time Mr. Swift notified me. Q. When did Mr. Swift notify you ? Mr, Bain. — His first invoice is the 10th of November last. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q Was that the first time you were notified by Swift that you could not get any more coal ? A. Yes. Q. November last— 1887 ? A. Yes. Q. You don't know when this company was formed ? A. No, I do not. By Mr. Casgrain: Q. Are there any other coal dealers in the same position as you in Ottawa ? A, There is another coal dealer here, Mr. Harris. He gets his coal from the Delaware and Hudson. Q . Any other coal dealers besides that, not belonging to the combination ? A. No, sir, there are only two of us out of it. By Mr. McKay : Q. You say Harris gets his coal from the Delaware and Hudson ? A. Yes. Q. He is not in this combination ? A. He could not buy from the Delaware and Lackawanna, Q. Can't you buy from the Delaware & Hudson, the same as Harris ? A. No, for the simple reason that Harris has influence in the United States, where the com- bination are not able to shut him out. Q. Did you get circulars from the different coal companies on the other aide with prices ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any here? A. No, I haven't any here. Q. Have you any circulars giving the prices of hard coal ? A. No, I haven't. Q. Did you get them? A. No, sir. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You have no means of buying direct from the coal companies in the States ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How does this coal company tender ? A. As individuals. Q. They tender as individuals ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Have you tendered for any public tender for coal at lower price than the combination ? A. No, I did not tender. Peter Labmonth recalled. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Have you had any correspondence with companies supplying outsiders with coal ? A. Not one word . Q. You don't know if such correspondence has passed? A. No. Q. You haven't heard about it ? A. No. Q. You haven't discussed the matter ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You don't attend the meetings of the Board or report the discussion in these matters ? A. No. By Air. Guillet : Q. Ab a matter of fact do you know whether parties have been written to not to supply coal to outsiders? A. No, I don't know anything about it at all. Q. They keep their own private minutes ? A. I think so, I don't know of course that they do. Q, There are statements made to the effect that efforts have been made on the part of the company to prevent coal being sold to outsiders ? A.I never heard of it. 192 GEORGE F. THOMPSON. George F. Thompson, of Ottawa, coal dealer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Are you a member of this incorporated company in Ottawa ? A. No ; I am not. Q Do you do business with them in some way ? A. Yes. Q. Will you explain the nature of your arrangement with them ? A. Well, I am connected with the Cartage Company to a certain extent. I have an interest with them in the profits of the coal daring the season. I get a certain share accord- ing to my tonnage. That is fixed from year to year. I get a certain proportion of the profits. Q. Of the company ? A. Ye«. Q. You are not in the company but you are in somewhat the same position as Mr. Clemow ? A. Yes, Mr Clemow, Mr, Brown and myself are on the same footing. Q. Did you apply to members of the company ? A. No. Q. Do you wish to become a member ? A. No. Q- You buy coal yourself ? A. Yes. Q. Then where does the coal go when it arrives here in cars ? A. For mutual convenierce of the dealers, it is put in the name of the Ottawa Cartage Company* Q . You hand it over ? A . Yes. Q. And your invoices ? A. Yes. Q. Who pays them ? A. The cartage company pays the money. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Were you in the business at the time this Cartage Company was formed ? A. Yes. Q. They did not ask you to join that Cartage Association ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. They deliver your coal ? A. Yes, they deliver the coal* Q. You do not keep any horses and carts, then ? A. No. I did up to this year, but I thought it would be a convenience to have the Cartage Company do it this year, and one reason was, that the Cartage Company handle the coal for all the dealers. I buy from one firm, and different dealers buy from different firms. If I gave them an order to deliver coal to one of my customers, perhaps they might find that my cars would not be in a good position amongst the 150 or 200 cars at the station, or I might have coal at the other station, when my customer was quite close to this one, so they take it from the car which is the most convenient. This is why we give the whole of the coal to the Cartage Company. Q. As a matter of fact, you do not know where your coal goes when it is un- loaded, if it does not go direct to the consumer ? A. They make use of our shed room. Q. Whichever may be most convenient ? A. Yes. Up to the time the Cartage Company started, we each had to have weigh masters at four dififerent places, at the St. Lawrence and Ottawa, the Canadian Pacific, the Canada Atlantic station and the Canadian Pacific station at the Chaudidre — at these four points. Under the present arrangement it is very convenient to have all our coal at the different oars or sheds, whichever is most convenient to the customers. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You did not fall in with the arrangement at first ? A. Yes ; instead of six or seven dealers keeping four weigh masters each and these men crowding up the little offices, we now save the wages. Q. You did not go in at first ? A. Not last year. Q. Was it not organized for last year? A. It was organized in July, 1886, I think. Q. You did not go in then ? A. I went in last year, 1st July, 1887. Q. Did you find any difficulty in getting coal up to that time ? A. There was some difficulty, but that was only for a few days. Q. What was the difficulty? A. The difficulty was not with the cartage at that time, but with the different dealers who did what they could at the time to prevent me from buying coal. OAT.. J 95 Q. Bat did not succeed ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. That didn't succeed ? A. No. Q. I want to understand about this having to have a weigh master at each of these four places. What is the necessity for you having a man there all the time ? A. Well, during the busy seasoD we have coal arriving at each station, and we deliver it after weighing to our customers. We have so many cars arriving at each station and we have to have a man there at all times ready to deliver coal, sending the carts to the different stationsi By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are these not city weigh scales ? A. Yes. The city weigh scales could not do the work. Sometimes we have from 50 to 85 horses going, and the city weigh master could not make out the tickets, fill in the weights and get the horses off in time. Q. As a matter of fact, you weigh the coal yourselves then, and make out your own certificates? A. We do it to a certain extent. The Cartage Company's man fills out the tickets and the weigh master fills in the amount, initials the ticket and stamps it. There are three tickets to be made out. Q. You have blank forms, blank printed forms, you have to fill in the dates, the consumer's name and the quantity of coal to be sent, that is not very difficult ? A. The other two have to fill out the same way, and it is left blank for the city weigh master to fill in his 2,000 pounds. Q. Is that all he has to do? A. Yes. Where he has to keep 50 horses going in a day, that means 350 loads per day, and that means that he has to be very quick about it. We have to pay 5 cents per ton for that weighing, we would only be too glad if they could get the men to do it. Q. It is the city's duty to provide a olerk if necessary to give that assistance. It does not seem reasonable that a eoal dealer should have a clerk there to represent him? A. The Cartage Company have one clerk to represent us, and we save the wages of about 30 men. By Mr. Fisher : Q. This one clerk is able to do all this work ? A. Yes. Q. If he is able to do it I don't see why the ordinary weigh master cannot do itf By Mr. Guillet : Q. The tickets can be made out as fast as the weighing of the coal can be done, and as the coal had to be weighed, it is simply a matter then of entering it oa the ticket? A. We had to send a list down in the morning, of the names of parties who have got coal. They had to make out these tickets as they are required, and just as you were saying it takes two men all their time— it takes the Cartage Company's men and the city weigh master to make out these tickets and fill in the weights. By the Chairman : Q. What security has the city that the consumer has his right weight ? A. He has the weight put in by the city weigh master and initialed and stamped with the city stamp by him. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Does he do the weighing and another man do the stamping? A. He does the weighing and stamping too. By the Chairman : Q. And the entering of the weight ? A. And the entering of the weight. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Are there any other coal dealers in the city of the same class ? A. Yes, sir, Mr. Brown, Mr. Clemow and myself. Q. Your remuneration consists of commission on the amount of coal represented by orders, that you furnish this Coal Cartage Company ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any objection to stating what the amount of that commission is ? A. It is one-eighth of the total sales. 3-13 194 GEOBGE P. THOMPSON, Q. One-eighth of your total sales? A. One-eighth of the total sales of the entire company, and the coal dealers in the city. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You take one-eighth of the profits as your share ? A. Yes. Q. Where do the other profits go to? A. The other profits are divided amongst the other dealers. Q. lour share is one-eighth ? A. Yes. By Mr, Boyle : Q. Is Clemow's one-eighth ? A. I don't know. I saw by yesterday's evidence that it wa« one -eighth. I did'nt know it. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Who arranges the proportions? A. This is supposed to be a mutual ar- rangement. We all make the best arrangement we can. Q. The Cartage Company acts as one individual? A. Yes. If three of us get three eighths, they would divide the otherjfive-eighths amongst themselves according to their own arrangement, of which I know nothing. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You find that a profitable arrangement for yourself ? A. Yes. Q. It was better than it was before ? A. Yes, we saved the wages of three or four men. And the cartage is done cheaper. Q. There is no cutting in prices under the present arrangement ? A. No, sir, there is none. Q. I suppose that is the greatest saving of all ? A. Well, yes, under the old system, before I was in the business, I believe cutting went on to such an extent that the dealers would not make $1.00 during the year. Q. You had been in business some time before this arrangement was made ? A. Well, only two years. This last year was my third year. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Then you had difficulty at one time with a party on the American side who Bupplied you with coal. Was that difficulty over on your becoming a party to this arrangement or was it got over before that ? A. It was got over before that. Some of the companies already supplying their agents here did not care about starting other agents in opposition to them, but I bought my coal from another dealer, Mr, Hall, of Ogdensburg. Q, That is when you were starting first ? A. Yes, I buy from them yet. Q. Subsequently, you had a little difficulty which you said you arranged with the Cartage Company here ? A. When I started there wasn't any Cartage Company, three years ago. Q. When they started I think you said you had a misunderstanding ? A, No, sir, I made arrangements with them to keep the prices up. Q. Well, do you know as a matter of fact, whether Mr. Hall would sell to any- one here doing business, whether he was a member of that association or not ? A. Oh, yes. Q. Was he supplied with a list of names ? A. No, sir, there was nothing of that kind. Any person who wishes to go into the coal business here, in a legitimate way, can do so, that is, if he has the horses and carts and sufficient capital, there is no difficulty. Q. Hall would supply anyone without their being a member of this association or in accord with them ? A. Yes. I don't know about being in accord with them. I think it would be very difficult for anyone to start in the business here and cut prices in coal. I think the coal companies in that case would not send in coal. Q. Yes, and then they would require from him, a new party going into the business, that he would sell at the same prices as the company 7 A. Yes, at the same prices the company maintained. The companies on the other side thought if they had certain agents here selling coal, and other men start and take their ooal and they undersell in price, and other dealers will cut, the result will be ^that no motey will be made by anybody and the American companies will suffer. They GOAL. 19& sell for cash sometimeE and there is 30 days. Sometimes we owe over $20,000 or $30,000 at a time, and a competition goes on, some of the dealers will fail and they will lose money. By Mr. GmlUt: Q. How do you know ? A. They have expressed themselves so to me. That is the diflferent agents who have been here to sell coal. That is the view they took of it. By Mr. Bain {WentwortK) : Q. They come over occasionally to see how business is mn ? A. They come over to make sales. They don't take any interest in the details here at all, ot course. Q You buy from the agents, that coal, don't you. You don't send your orders over there as a rule? A. Well, no, the agents generally come here early in the spring and they give out the prices and we send our orders on to their company. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. Is there any competition between the coal companies in the States for orders here ? A. No, there is no competition . Their agents come here for orders and they .are not at all particular which company gets it. Q, What is the object of coming here to seek orders if there is no competition ? A. They are anxious to get business, there is no competition in regard to prices. Q. Is it to induce the dealers here to buy anthracite as against bituminous coal. I can hardly see any object if there is no competition among the coal com- panies. That is if they have a fixed price. What is the object of sending their agents here trying to make sales ? A. Well, I suppose that is the same way as here, we have fi^ed prices here, and we have to do business to keep up our business, and they are anxious to get orders. Q. The same quantity must be sold whether they sell or not ? By Mr. Bain ( Wentioorth) • Q. It would not all come from the same mine ? A. No. By Mr. Fisher ; Qi As far as you know they have an agreement amongst themselves as to what "they will sell coal at ? A. Oh, yes, they all have the same prices. Q. They have an arrangement as to the output ? A.I can only say from what I have seen in the papers that they limit their output and divide up their tonnage amongst themselves according to what they have, perhaps the year before. I know that they have the same prices, the different companies. Q. In your experience here do you find any rivalry between the different com- panies who come here to sell coal ? A. Each of them, of course, tries to get their orders and get their customers together. By Mr. Guillet : Q. As a matter ot fact, you had no difficulty in getting coal before you joined this association? A. No, sir, I had not. Q. You don't know that they would refuse to sell you coal over there if you continued to remain out ? A. I know some of the companies refused, and put me off from time to time. At last I made an arrangement through Mr. Hall to get my coal* Q. Before yon joined this association ? A. Yes, this is three years ago. Q. You made your arrangement then after joining this association ? A. Yes, we all arranged to sell at the one price. Q. Then you found you had no difficulty in getting your coal ? A. Well, some of the companies did not care about selling me coal when I was selling it at the same price. The companies like to be sure of the good faith of the man who is starting. They don't like to sell a man who will demoralize the trade, selling 500 or 600 tons during the summer, and lose customers the rest of the winter. Q. These men ascertain all that very well ? A. Pretty well. By Mr. Fisher : Q, Their agents who come here can find out about that ? A. Oh, yes. By Mr. Ghiillet : Q. They have no objections whether you belong to the association or not ? A* Yes, they would have the association, 3— 13i 196 QEOBQE F. THOMPSON. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth') : Q. They consider the at-scciation a better guarantee that the prices will not bo cut or broken ? A. They know if we have a profit and can live, they will get their money for their coal. Q. There is a difficulty, except a member of the association got into business, in that way ? A. Yes By Mr. Quillet : Q. There is no objection to selling coal at a fair price. You can pell coal as high as you like and they don't object ? A. Not as low or as high as they like. If they sold coal below cost they would not get their money. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I understand you to say that any man going into business who had the bond fides of business about him, could get coal from any merchant ? A. Yes or any of these other companies. Q. Unrestrictedly ? A. No. He would have to keep the prices. There would be no reason why he should join the association or the Cartage Company at all if he would keep the prices. If he didn't keep the prices the companies would soon find out through their agents. Q. flail and Company are under control of some of these companies ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. They didn't exact a written contract from yon ? A, No. By Mr. Wood (^Westmoreland) : Q. What object have the dealers here— I understand there are six of you, three in the Cartage Company and three outside associated or connected — what object have any one of you in pressing sales. You get the same profits I understand ? A. This, For instance, I gell 3,000 tons in a year, making an arrangement with the association that they would give me the profits, one-sixteenth. Our share is pro rata according to our tonnage, and it simply means, all joining together in that way. By Mr. Boyle ; Q. That is according to the scale of your own usefulness ? A. From what I understand I think the Cartage Company only get six per cent, out of it on their capital and the profits really go to the different dealers. Q. The secretary stated that the two shareholders holding S20O worth of stock each received dividends last year amounting to 200 per cent. ? A. Well, I think these two men, most likely, have been taken in to form the company, and this would go through their hands. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. The promoters were not numerous enough to make a company and they took in two outsiders ? A They pay about six per cent, on $15,000 capital. By Mr. Guillet ; Q. I suppose if a man with sufficient means went into business here, would not objections be raised here by this company if he was cutting prices ? A. No. Mr. Seybold was talking of starting in the coal business, and none of us was bothering about it. They could get all the coal they wanted, there was no trouble about that. By Mr. Bain : Q. As soon as they cut on your current sale, few men would supply them ? A. Yes. We would speak to our companies on the subject. Perhaps they might bo selling coal for the same companies that are supplying us, and the companies would object. Q. The companies would regulate that then ? A. Yes. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. All that coal that you speak of is anthracite coal ? A. Yes. Q. What means have you of controlling their influence ? Have you any means ? A. To control their interest over there ? , ' ■ Q. Yes ? A. No ; we have to accede to their terms, whatever they are, in regard to the prices we have to pay. They have all got the same prices. There are six or seven companies in combination, and they meet together every two weeks COAL. 197 and fix the prices. As a rale they advance the prices twenty-five cents, generally, every month. Q. Can you Huggest any kind of remedy ? A. No, sir. The only remedy wo ifould have would be to bring coal from the Rocky Mountains. By Mr. Guillet : ^ Q. Don't you think the consumers of coal might form an association here and agree upon a price and distribute it among themselves ? A. They can buy all the coal they want. Q. If t^io consumers were to form an association, could they not form a co-opera-, tjive associa tion and leave you out in the cold altogether. Would you not give them coal? A. I think they could get coal. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. 1)0 you know of any case where it has been tried ? A. I know of different parties in the city bringing their own coal in. Mr. Booth got coal for himself and nis employes. The different Catholic institutions here also brought in 1,000 or 1,200 tons last year, and some hotel-keepers and others. I suppose there was a couple of thousand tons or more bi'ought in by outsiders. Q. As a matter of fact, it is only the poor man who cannot get his coal in ? A, "Xes, if they were to join together they might. By Mr. Ftsher : Q. You do not know at what price they got their coal ? A. No. Q. You do not know whether it was as low as you got it ? A. I suppose the same price. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Did they buy here or at the mines ? A. I could not say, I think perhaps they bought it at the mines sometimes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Does your association make any objection to that being done ? A. No, wo do not say anything at all. Q. You do not object to these men selling to these people outside ? A. No. By the Chairman: Q. What have your profits been this year. What profits have you drawn from the association ? A. I have drawn different sums at different times. Q. How much is the sum total ? A. About $3,750. Q. On account ? A. Yes. Q. Up to what date was that ? A. Up to the first of the month, Q. First of March? A. Yes. Q. And you commenced on the 1st of July ? A, The year commences on tho Ist of May. Q. And how much did you draw up to the Ist of July ? You commenced on tho Ist of May, 1887 — I mean up to the 1st of July, 1887 ? A. I was not in the associa- tion last year. I commenced the Ist of May, 1887. My year is not finished yet. Q. i thought the year of the company commenced on the 1st of July, but yoa eay it commences on the Ist of May? A. Yes, By Mr. Fisher : Q. These profits you speak of are not net profits ? A. No, gross profits. Q. Oat of that what do you have to pay ? A. Out of that 1 wili have to pay about $2,500 for running my business. Q. What are the expenses that are not covered by this ? A. Well, I have to pay my office account, my book-keeper, as well as rent, interest and bad debt'j, altogether amounting to $.,400 or $2,500. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of fact you have no capital for the purchase of coal ? A. Ob, yes, we all have large amounts of capital. We have to pay the Cartage Company- according to their delivery, perhaps $500 or $600 a month. Q. Supposing you do a cash business, you would noi require any capital at all. As I understand it the invoice comes in to you and it is handed over to the Cartage 'Company, and they take charge of it and pay the bill ? A. Yea. 198 GEORGE P. THCMPoON. Q. Sappo«.l2. Add on 98 cents for two cartages. The bulk of the coal would be delivered from the car. The but k of the coal is delivered straight from the cars, and a few tons that would go into the shed this year would, 1 am satisfied, cost us double cartage. We would have to cart it from the Canadian Pacific Railway to the Canal Basin, and you cannot get it for less than 35 cents and the weighing is 5 cents. What little coal we sell at this high price does not net us this $2.00 profit. The Chairman —He cannot make a statement as to cartage because he is not in the cartage business. The Witness — The diflference^between the gross price and the delivery price «hows that, but that is not the profit we make. The expense eats up the whole thing in the winter time. My expenses are $2,400 or $i,500 a year. I do not now sell four tons a day. We are going behind every day until August, and I have to carry on my expenses at $8 a day until next August before I make a cent. By Mr. Quillet : Q. If there were more men in the business you would have to raise the price to make any money? A. Yes ; I may Hay as far as the summer prices are concerned where we agree to supply our customers at $6.50 we had to get it and pay these prices. Mr. Laston stated he could not fill his orders, bat he is not a responsible dealer and oonld not fill his orders in any year His coal would be subject to the order of the bank. I do not think he was able to buy his coal. Mr. Harris is in the coal business, but is not in the combination; He can get all the coal he wants. He has kept the prices, but he has not said that he would that I know of. We had to fill our orders that we took in summer time. COAL. 201 By Mr. Bain ( WeniwortK) : Q. You were all in this position, that yoa have taken snmmer orders on the ex- pectation that you would be able to get the coal to fill them, bat you did not get enousra to cover your contracts. Then all you who were large dealers were little worse ofl^ because if a man got two or three car loads and had only small orders, he was better off than the man who got two or three car loads more who had orders for 2,000 or 3,000 tons ahead. But Mr. Easton felt himself in honor bound to fill his contracts notwithstanding the rise in the prices, and what he complained of was that he found himself in this difficulty, that ]!ir. Swift, who usually supplied him, intimated that he was forbidden to sell him, or rather they would not sell him any more cars for delivery at Ottawa. They would sell him any quantity for delivery at home, but they declined to sell him as they had been doing for delivery at Ottawa, and the result was that Mr. Swift had to bring over a quantity in his vessels to Kingston, and then he was caught by the local rates of the railway company. They would not carry it from Kingston to here without charging him the local rat«. What he com- plained of was that he was in a position whereby the coal association had brought a pressure to bear on the American association who were supplying Mr. Swift and pre- vented him from getting coal ? A. I do not think there was anything of the kind. What Mr. Easton sells is nothing to the association at all. I do not sappose he sells over a couple of hundred tons a year. The Chaieima-n — He has sworn to a different statement to that. Q. You cannot say from your personal knowledge? A. I think the difficulty would be that Mr. Swift himself could not get the coal any more than we couldU Here is a circular issued in October from the coal companies saying that '• all cir- cular prices issued by us are hereby withdrawn and all coal sales will be at such prices as are agreed on at the time of sale." By the Chairman : Qi What was this difference between your cost and Easton's. Easton swears that the price was raised to him $1.80 ? A. That was between him and Swift. The price was raised 60 cents per ton, which would give you a ton of coal at $5.63, and you had 46 cents cartage^expenses which makes it $5.99, so you would deliver the coal to your customer at $5.99, and the lowest price we got was $6.50 and you would sell at 51 cents per ton net profit. Q. Do you know of any interference by anyone in Ottawa to prevent George Harris from getting his coal from the States ? A. No, I do not. Q. You don't know ot any ? A. No, I don't know of any. Q. I suppose, as a matter of fact, from your connection with the association that you don't control the inside workirg. You don't belong to the Executive Com- mittee ? A. No, sir, I don't. Q. You are only an affiliated member as it were ? A. Yes. Q. There is an Executive Committee of three parties ? A. Yes, they are in charge of the company. Q. I suppose it is from one of these that we would require to ask to get this in* formation ? A. Yes. Q. You don't know, as a matter of fact ? A. No. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. As a matter of fact, the result of your evidence — it would appear from the figures that you make a verv large profit at $8 a ton, nearly $2 a ton. What was your profit last year? A. The year before laat, when I conducted the business my- self, I made 50 cents a ton profit, and last year I made 60 cents, and this year I think I will do very well if I get 50 cents. Tue expense of my office eits up all profits. The price of coal has not been raised to the public. In August, 1886, you could get coal for $4.75 with the duty added, 50 cents, that would be $5.25. In 1887, in August, we had to pay $5.60, without duty, that would be 35 cents higher than in August, 1 885,and we delivered the coal for the same price as we did in 1885, selling it at $6.50. I have taken the figures from my invoices to show yoa, which 1 leave yoa iiere, that we charge actually 35 cents a ton less or 4u cents a ton less. 202 THOMAS MCCONNKLL. Q. You only gave the prices of two months? A. This is for August, September and Ootober. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Do you confine your business chiefly to coal ? A. Yes, altogether. As a matter of fact, I am on the lookout for something else besides that. There is nothing in the coal business alone. The Committee adjourned. House op Commons, 5th April, 1888. Tie Select Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. N.. C. Wallace in the Chair. Thomas MoConnell, coal merchant, Toronto, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your address ? A. 37^ Sherbourne Street, Toronto. Q, How long have you been in business in Toronto, that is in the coal business ? A* About six years. Q. Did you know anything of the coal organization that was formed there ? A. Xee, I did latterly. Q. When was that organization formed ? A. Well, since I have known any- thing about it, is about three years past, I think. Q. They were amalgamated or associated with the Board of Trade ? A. Yes, I knew that about a year before that, or maybe a little over a year before that. Q. Do yott know of any interference by the United States dealers and miners with the prices that coal should be sold at in Toronto ? A. I don't know anything except from hearsay. I was not present at any meeting when the American men were there. Q. How is it these Americans came over here in 1886 when the combination ■was amalgamated ? A. 1 could not say how they came over, except that I heard that Mr. Eogers was the means of fetching them over. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Did you import, Mr. McConnell ? A. Yes, sir. By the t hairman : Q. Eogers was the means of bringing them over? A. I have heard that. I do not know. Q. How many importers are there in Toronto or have there been ? A. I think there are about 4 or 5— about 5 importers, Q. Does the whole of the coal there come through these 5. A. Yes, the most of it lor Toronto. Q. You were an importer ? A. Yes, I have been for about 4 years. Q. Have you had any difficulty with importing your coal ? A. Yes. Several times I have had some trouble. Q. Are you a member of this coal section of the Board of Trade now ? A, Not at present. No. Q. You were ? A. I was for a short time. Q. What was your difficulty in getting coal ? A. Well, two or three, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Crane and Mr. Burns, I think there were three of them in the coal exchange on the other 8ide, and I was telegraphed to that I must join the coal exchange at once or all thipments would be stopped. \ Q. All shipments would be stopped unless yon joined the Coal Exchange ? A. Yee. Q. When was that ? A. Three years ago. By Mr. Landry: Q. That was from the American side ? A. Yes. GOAL. 203^^- Q. What did yon do then ? A. We revived a telegram, a few miiiates later on, to not heed the former telegram, that tney were writing. By Mr Fisher : Q. From the same parties ? A. Tes. By the Chairman : Q. You were not a member of the Toronto organization at that time ? A. No. Q. And they wanted to compel you to become a member ? A. Yes. Q. Did you become a member then ? A. I did afterwards. The party who was furnishing me tried to furnish me against the coal exchange there ; but the influence of the exchange was too strong, and I was obliged to join the associa- tion. Q. Who manipulated these matters against yea ? A. Mr; Bogers and Mr. Crane were the principal men. Q. Who are they ? A. They are coal importers of Toronto. Q. Did they succeed in shutting oflf your supply of coal at any time ? A, Not till this year. I am shut off this season — this present season. Q. Yon are shut off this season ? A. Yes. Q. Where did you buy coal then ? A. I was shut off entirely. I was obliged to give my orders and contracts over to other parties to fill. Q. You had orders and contracts amounting to how much ? A. Contracts and orders amounting to 26,000 tons. Q. You had sold 26,000 tons ? A. Yes, something about that. Q. And you took thetje orders on the strength of getting your coal ? A. I was going to get the coal from the same parties I was previously getting coal from. I had made a bargain for 15,01-0 tons by vessel, and the balance I would get by rail. Q. You made a bargain for 15,000 tons by vessel and get the rest by rail. Then you had taken orders for 26,000 tens, that is for 1887? A. Yes. That is this present seaeon. Thefeascn is euppoeed to end on the 1st of May. Q. That is during the season now ending ? A. Where you make contracts they are made from May to May. If you undertake to furnish a party you are supposed to famish from May to May. Q. What did you do then, you say you had to cancel all your agreements ? A. I got my orders mostly filled. On some of them I had to pay an advance of 75 cents. There was a raise of 75 cents and I had to pay that and get rid of the orders the best way I could, and got a good many of the orders filled through a couple of other dealersi Q. When did these importers interfere. When did they commence to interfere during thisEeaeon ? A. I could cot particularly eay that. They have been working against me ever since I have been in the coal business. By Mr. Landry : Q. Do I understand you to say you had made an arrangement to be supplied with this amount of coal from the same parties ? A. I made that arrangement about the Jet September. Q. And you found a rise of 75 cents ? A. Later on, in the winter, there was a rise of 75 cents. I got shut down about that time. Q. They refused to supply you — those who had bargained to supply you reftised to ? A. Yea. Q. Had you made some binding contract with them ? A. Well, as a gereral thing they put in a proviso that if they could not get the coal they are not bound. Q. Did you make any such proviEO \?ith this firm ? A.I don't thick there is aijore -who can ccntiact without provifioes in cases of strikes and railroad troubles. Q. You run these risks ? A, Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What was the reason they didn't supply you? A. I suppose the reason "was this combine. I think the pressure was put on. Q. Pressure was put on by the combination ? A. Yes. 204 THOMAS MCOONNELL. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What reason did they give J^ou, let us have these specified facts? A.. They gave the reason saying, that I had not been living up to the coal exchange rules and they could not furnish the coal. Q. They wrote to you to that effect ? A. No, it was verbal. The party whom I buy from 1 saw mostly every week. Q. Who was the party you were buying from ? A. Chisholm and Parrish. Q. American agents ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : , Q. Where do they live ? A. Buffalo. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are you a member of the coal exchange at this time ? A. No, sir. By Mr, Fisher ; Q. Were you a member of the coal exchange when you made the agreement ? A. No. A. You had gone out ? A. I had been out sometime before that. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What was the reason of your leaving the coal exchange ? A. Well, they fined me $100 for putting out three sign boards at three different places in the city. By the Chairman : Q. Is that contrary to the rules ? A. That is contrary to the rules of the coal «xchange. You can only sell at your own office, or you can appoint other officers but you must have your own men and you must not do anything but sell ooal. You must not sell anything in that office but coal. For instance, a man cannot appoint an agent in a store, such as a hardware store or a grocery store, you could not sell coal in that store. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You had a clerk ? A. I had a clerk at my own office, bat these three sign boards were put on at different stores. Q. Do you require a clerk to take this order? A. Yes. Q. I understand there is a solemn declaration to be made by the salesman ? A. Yos. The clerk must be a sworn man. Q. I suppose that was your case, you didn't have a sworn man? A. No. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. I understand you made an arrangement with this agent in Buffalo last winter about this time ? A. In September, I think about the 8th of September. I have a oopy of last year's agreement. (Exhibit 35a.) Q. Is that the agreement with the men who supply you? A. Yes. Q. Well, at the time you made that agreement you were not in the coal ring in Toronto ? A. No, I wasn't in. I promised to go in provided things were set right. There was some money I was entitled to, but they didn't set it right and I didn't go in. Q. So at the time you made this agreement with your suppliers at Baffalo, they «upposed you were in the Canada coal ring. Did they make that a condition with your bargain with them ? A. It was talked of that if I had to go in I would. Q Afterwards, when you didn't go in, they broke their agreement ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. I will read the agreement now (Exhibit 35a) : — "Toronto, 2l8t July, 1887. " Messrs. T. MoOonnbll & Co., Toronto. " De\r Sirs, — We will furnish you fifteen thousand tons (15,000) of ooal of fully as good a quality as last year, only it to be well screened and cleaner than last year, delivered in your sheds ou your dock webt of Yonge Street, Toronto, at four dollars and sixteen cents ($4.16) per net ton via (Lake Ontario) the charge from Cuarlotte, Fairhaven, Oswego, or Sjdas are to be as follows:— Freight 2.5 cents per ton. Harbor dues 5 cents per ton and discharging £b cents per toa, all other charges or ■advaucea on above charges you are to pay. COAL, 205 " We agree to deliver fifteen thoasand tons (15,000) during the months of July and August, 1887. It is understood we are not to be charged back or any claim made on us for any deduction without we are notified on arrival of vessel. '* We will guarantee weights on condition that the weigh master be a disinterested party." By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. This is last year's? A. This is this last year's. Q. At that time you were in very good standing in the association? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Did you accept that at once? A. Yes. Then we were furnished part of it, about 6,000 or 1,000 tons. Q. What is to hinder you from holding them for the balance of it ? A. I think I could. Q. You haven't ? A. I haven't bo far. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Are not these contracts made with the understanding that they only deliver at the month's price ? By the Ohairman : Q. Then there is a further agreement which reads as follows. (Exhibit 35a) :— " The terms of payment are to be as lollows : Three dollars ($3) per ton cash after the unloading of each veesel separately. Balance to be paid by notes on every three or four cargoes, or at the end of the month. Notes to be diawn at three months, without interest. Cash and notes to be deposited to Chieholm & Parrish's credit here at the Quebec Bank, Toronto. •' "You are to give us a secord waiehouse receipt on the coal as soon as the con- tract is completed, the full fifteen thousand (15,000) tons delivered. " We allowing you to take from the pile as high as one thousand (1,000) tons of coal, but rot allowing you to take'more without payment of the one thousand (1,000) tons already taken, that is one dollar and sixteen cents ($1.16) per ton. "The disinterested party who weighed the coal in, or some one satisfactory to both of us to weigh the same going out, and to send us statements of weights daily or weekly." The Chairman. — This is merely for their security ? By Mr. Boyle : Q. You were put to considerable loss in consequence of this firm not fulfilling that agreement ? A. Yes ; a heavy loss. Q. Have you made any attempt at recovery ? A. Not as yet. Q. Do you propose doing it ? A. Yes. Q. What is the amount of your loss in consequence of their failure ? A. There would certainly be more than |l a ton loss to me. By Mr Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What were you contracting to deliver that coal at, to parties ? A. $6. The coal was all sold pretty much at $6, to be delivered during the winter as wanted. Q. You took contract for winter delivery on the strength of that July and August contract ? A. Yes. Q. What is your contract in these cases. Cash on delivery ? A. Cash with the order. Q. You took contracts early in the fall ? A. Yes, and when they came to order it they are supposed to pay for it, but they don't always pay when the contract is signed. They pay when ordered. Q. That customer comes to you and he wants to get 10 or 16 tons delivered during the winter from time to time, you expecting him to pay for that 5 or 10 tons at the time he orders it, in July or August ? A. He signs a document that he is to pay for it when ordered. He contracts in the fall and pays for it when he orders. Q. You make a contract to carry out that agreement with him ? A. Yes. -206 THOMAS MCOONNELL. By Mr. Landry : Q. Were the contract prices the same as those, generally, who are in the combine ? A. I sold at the same prices. I was obliged to do so or be shut down. -I was shutdown, anyway. Q. Were you getting coal at the same prices that they were, as far as you know ? A. I could not say what they were paying. By the Chairman : Q. Were these men, who were selling to you, urging you to join the combination of the coal section in Toronto ? A. Yes. They wanted me to join and they were not particular until they wore pushed by the coal exchange on the other side, owing to complaints on this side. The complaint on this side is probably what raised the trouble on the other side. Q. Complaints from this side that you were not complying with the terms of the agreement here ? A. Yes. Q, You were a member of the coal exchange once. Did they administer to you that statutory declaration, and did you take it ? A. Yes. There was something read but I never took any notice of it. Q, Who did you take it before ? A. It was in the office of one Mr. 1 forget the name. Q. At any rate you took the statutory declaration that was required ? A. There was a declaration read. I don't suppose they took it as a declaration. I refused to sign only on certain conditions, and they would not do that, so I just left it there. Q. You never actually signed it ? A. I signed it, but I put in certain clauses fixing it to suit myself, and they didn't accept that. Q. You did not agree to their statutory declaration that they presented? A. No. Q. That was one of the causes of the trouble between you and the coal section ? -A. They were binding me to things I knew I could not keep very well, and I wrote in clauses to modify the thing to suit myself. Q. What were these things you objected to ? A. I almost forget now. I think it was that I would solemnly swear and declare that I would not break the rules of this Coal Exchange in any way. The rules were so particular that a man could not keep them, and I put in provisos that didn't suit. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How long did you state you were a member of the association then, after that ? A. I am not positive. I think it was about six months. Q. Then they fined you on this signboard business, didn't they ? A. Yes, I ^paid that fine. By the Chairman : Q. How much did they fine you ? A. $100. Q. $100, for signboards? A. Signboards and some other little complaint. Q. Had they any other charges against you after that ? A. Not that I know of. 1 think there was some talk or complaint about my furnishing some man who wasn't a member of the Coal Exchange, a man who had the city contract. He was a man who wasn't a member of the Q)al Exchange, and it was against the rules for anyone to furnish him with coal. He got his coal, but not from me. Q. Was that the contract for the waterworks ? A. No, for public buildings for the city and fire hall. Q. Who bad that contract? A. A man named Logan. Q. And the association prohibited anyone supplying him with coal at any prices ? A. At any prices. Q. Why ? A. They wanted to crush him because he wasn't a member of the Coal Exchange, I suppose. Q. Did they pass a resolution in the Coal Exchange not to permit him to have €oal at any prices ? A. I wasn't present. I seldom went there at all. Q. Who had the contract for supplying the waterworks in 1886 ? I think it was Mr. Bams. COAL. 207 Q. Wasn't it yourself ? A. I nevtjr had the waterworks contract, I had the •city contract. Q. In what year had you the city contract ? A. I think it was in 1885, and I had it this year. Q. How did you get it this year? A. I got it both years by cutting the price of wood, and refusing to take the contract except I got the whole of it. 1 put in the same prices for coal as the Coal Exchange, but I cat the prices of wood low and refused to take the contract except they gave me the whole of it. Q. And they gave you the whole of it ? A. Yes. Q. Had you any difficulty in filling that contract with the city? A. Yes. I liad to get another party to fill it this season, when I was shut down. Q. Did you lose any money on that ? A. Yes. I had the same price for that as I had for the other contracts, I had $6 . 00 per ton. Mr. Bain.— rThe witness says he understood certain things. Now I understand, to have this investigation efi'ective, McConneU should furnish the committee with doca« ments showing specifically where they closed on him. The Chairman. — He has told you that there were verbal communications, and that these men came over every week, and they were urging him to abide by the rules and he refused to do it. Mr. Bain. We would like to have the evidence. I think there is no doubt they did it, but we should have the documentary evidence. The Witness. I have it from the man I bought from. By Mr. Bain : Q. This is said to you verbally ? A. Yes. By Mr. Landry : Q. What is it ? A. They said I would have to become a member or they would have to stop sending coal. Q. After signing the contract ? A. This contract wasn't signed. It was drawn up and handed to me but it wasn't signed. It wasn't signed. It was drawn up and agreed to, but it wasn't signed. Q. The reason they refused to sign was, because you would not sign the declara- tion. Is that the idea? A. Yes. They were willing to give me the coal but they said I must become a member. Q. After that, when they knew that you were refusing to sign, you went on contracting with customert taking the risk of being supplied ? A. I never had a contract signed with this party, but up to this last year, they carried out their con- tracts honorably and all right without the contracts being signed. By Mr. Landry : Q. When you undertook to supply your customers was there any understanding between you and anybody as to the price you should sell to your customers at ? A. The man who sold me the coal said I was not to break prices. Q. Then you were actually working along the lines of the combine at that time? A. Yes. Q. Although not a member, you were in hopes that you might get in with them ? A. In hopes that I might get the coal as usual without being a member of the Coal Combine. Q. Then it was in hopes that by agreeing to their conditions, you would be let alone and that you would get your customers supplied. These were the facts at any rate? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I understood you to say that after receiving that offer from the Buffalo agents, you accepted the terms in writing ? A. Yes ; I accepted them in writing.* Q. Was that previous to contracting with your customers for the delivery of coal ? A. It was before I sold the coal. Q. Didn't that constitute a contract ? A. Yes, certainly ; I took it as a contract. Q. You said a few minutes ago that there had been no contract signed ? A. It ^as a verbal contract and was to be signed, but we never got to it. 208 THOMAS MCOONNELL. By the Chairman : Q. At any rate you Dever got the coal and were put to very considerable loss and inconvenience ? A . Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You got part of the coal ? A. Yes. Q. How much did you get ? A. About 7,000 or 8,000 tons. By the Chairman ; Q. How much coal did you sell this year altogether. How much did you get from other parties ? A. Probably about 16,000 or 16,000 tons. Q. Then you got 7,000 or 8,000 tons from them and 7,000 or 8,000 tons from others? A. Yes. Q. But you were short on your orders about 10,000 tons ? A. About that. Q. If yon had got the coal and had not been interfered with by any parties what about the profit ? As to the profit of 25 cents a ton what do you think about that ? A. I do not think it is right. Q. What would be nearer to the mark? A. I have stated to you what my profits would be and you can see. I paid $4.16 a ton and I had the coal sold at $6. Some of it sold at 86.50 ; the last was sold at that. Q. What expenses were you put to in delivering it ? A. The carting is calcu- lated at 40 cents. That was what I paid. Q. That would be the only further expenses besides weighing ? A . Yes, and storage. That would be probably 15 cents. Q. 40 cents for carting and 15 cents for weighing and storage; the balance would be your profit? A. Yes; the carting cost 40 cents. That is what I paid for long and short journeys. If they took one load outside of the city, they took another shorter. Storage and delivery would cost about 15 cents. Q. That would be all the expense ? A. Yes ; although we have another busi- ness running, there would be some expense in the office. By Mr. Boyle : Qi When the estimate was made at 25 cents per ton, I think he included every- thing that could be included, capital and rent of his sheds and losses on credits and shrinkage ? A. I suppose it might go pretty near 25 cents on those items. Q. After all this was included the 25 cents was left ? A. I do not believe that. It is possible that over ana above the 40 cents and 15 eoj^ts, it might cost 25 cents for other expenses. S4.16 was the cost delivered to me in the city. Q. Did you incur any loss from crediting ? A. Yes, not a very big percentage. Q. 2J per cent. ? A. I do not think so. <^. It is mostly a cash transaction ? A. Yes ; but sometimes we credit a little. It is supposed to be cash . By Mr. Fisher : Q. That would leave you rather over $1 a ton net profit ? A. That is what I say it would be, over $1 ; and we have lost over 01 by not being able to carry out our contract. By Mr. QuiUet: Q. You get cash in advance for coal? A. We seldom get cash in advance. They pay just when ordered. Q. I>on't they sometimes order it to be delivered ahead and pay for it ? A. As a rule they order and pay for it at the time. By Mr. Bain ( Wentwerth) : Q. You really deliver these winter contracts at the time as they are asked for? A. Yos, Q. So that in that case you get no cash in advance? A. Not actually; all the stuff goes out C.O.D. By Mr. Landry : Q. Can you give us any information as to the retail prices in the States, say in.. JBofEalo ? A. I do not know anything but from the papers. COAL. 209^ Q. How do the prices compare with Toronto ? A. Some places are higher than in Toronto. Q. Do some of the dealers there sell cheaper to customers than in Toronto ? A. I do not know of the market on the other side. Q. Qaote ns the prices subsequent to the summer prices. Have yoa the tariff of prices that coal was supplied through the winter, that is at retail rates ? A. The price through the winter has been $6.75. Q. What was the September quotation for coal. You bought this contract at $4.16 in July and August, what were the September prices? A. I think a little higher. Q. Have you any price list that you could give as the absolute facts from ? A. I have not. Q. What is your recollection? A. I recollect that they were a little higher, but I do not think there is any dealer in Toronto who shipped any coal of conse- quence but has his prices made. The only rise I know of, that I had to agree to> was the rise of freight. If freight went up I had to pay the cost of that raise of freight. I closed my bargain and wo»ld agree to pay the raise of freight to get th& ooal for the season at that price. Q. They would continue to deliver, adding on only the cost of increased freight T A. That was the understanding. Q. Now after navigation closed what were the prices charged by the companies on the other side ? A. I never had anything to do with the cost of carriage on the other side. I had a special rate with the Grand Trunk of 75 cents — 60 cents up to a certain time and after that 75 cents. They could not charge more than that. Q. What did a ton of ooal cost you in January delivered in your yard ? A. I do not remember that* It would be more than by vessel. Q. It would be better if you were able to tell U3 the prices in January than in July. Your coal cost you $4.16 on the wharf in July. Now if you could tells us what that same coal cost you say in the month of January delivered in your yard under similar circumstances, we would know how to reckon the profit ? A. I think it would cost something like 60 cents more. By the Chairman: Q. How much did the retail prices go up ? A. 75 cents morci Barly in the fall the first rise was 25 cents and then 75. Q. About what date was the 25 cents increase made? A. Some time in October. Q. Then there was an increase of 50 cents more ? A. Yes. Q. When ? A. Some time in December, I think. Q. Then that made coal $6.75 during the winter months? A. Yes. Q. And that has been the price since, down to the present time ? A. Yes. Q. What class of coal is sold at $6.75 ? A. The best hard coal that comes to Toronto. Q. What proportion do you get by a vessel and by a railroad ? A. I intended to run 20,000 tons by vessel, and the rest I had to run my chances on, of getting by railway. By the Chairman : Q. The contract you had with Chisholm and Parish, they only delivered half of it. Had you been dealing with them for years ? A. Yes. Q. Did they always carry out the contract ? A. Yes. Q. Had there been any attempt in other years of interfering with you to pre- vent them selling you coal ? A. Yes, there were several times I was about to be shut down unless I got things fixed with the Coal Exchange^ Q. Then you could not get along without going in with them? A. No; I-was obliged to go in, or shut down. I suppose they are satisfied now that they have accomplished what they wanted. Q. What is that ? A. They have shut me off from selling coal. S— 14 210 THOHA.S HCCONirXLL. Q. Then, the effect has been by interfering with these contracts, it has practically flhut you out of business ? A. I expect to go in again. I think another party will furnish me with coal, but I suppose I will be obliged to become a member before I can go on. Q. And not break prices ? A. No. Q. You paid the fine that they imposed upon you, on the signboard question? A. Yes. Q. Then it was a subsequent difficulty which led to you and the coal combina- tion separating ? A. It was furnishing coal to this man Jjogan who was not a member. Q. And Logan was furnishing the city contract? A. Yes; I sold a man 300 or 400 tons of coal, and ho sold it to Logan. They did not give me a chance to prove that to them, but they marked me in default, and I did not go to right it, and have been out ever since. Q. Did they punish you without giving you a fair trial ? A. They found me in default. Q. Did they summon you to appear? A. Yes; I did not appear, and they marked me in default. Q. The crime was that you sold this man some coal, who had a city contract ? A. I sold to a man named Dougherty, and he sold to Logan. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. Then you did not attend the coal combination on their summons ? A. No; I did not feel very well pleased about their fining me $100, on what I thought was unfair, and I did not go near them. By the Chairman : , Q. Who was the manipulator in this coal section ? Who got this organization, and ail these matters arranged in this way ? A. I think Mr. Rogers and Mr. Crane were the principal men. Q. What steps were taken to work Burns ? A. I do not know. I was not pre- sent when he was fined. Q. You have a knowledge of subsequent transactions. Can you tell us any- thing you know about Burns' affairs? Was he a member when you were ? A. Yes. Q, You do not know whether he is a member now ? A. No ; it is a long time since I was there. Q. Is he an importer ? A. Yes ; he has been one of the biggest importers there. By Mr Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Who are your largest importers in Toronto ? A. Rogers is now, Burns was. Q, Who are the others ? A. Bailey is one* By Mr. Gasgrain : Q. Are there any other parties besides you who paid fines ? A. There was Mr. Burns, and I think there were others. I have been there but very little, and I do not know much about it only from hearsay. Q. Are there any other dealers in Toronto who are in the same position as you are, that is excluded ? A. I do not remember of any, unless they are very small ones. A number of small ones have been cut off because they did not belong. Some of them had to pay $100 to the Board of Trade, and somewhere about $30 to the Coal Exchange to become a member, and some of the small dealers could not spare that much money. By Mr. Quillet : Q. They have to be balloted for, and they do not let in any small dealers ? A. There are lots of small dealers who belong. Q. Were there any objections to these small dealeis coming into the Bxehange? A. I do not think there was. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Does that pressure behind the coal business come entirely from the other tide of the line, or is it protected on this side ? A. Also on this side, I think. Q. The proprietors of the mines and the dealers in Toronto seem to be com- bined? A. Yes. OOAL. Ill By Mr. Landry • Q. You say the parties came from the other eide who originated this ? A. I think Mr. Hogers broaght them here. He has been an American himself. By Mr. Casgrain : , Q. Can yoa saggest any means to this Committee of getting rid of that pressnro from the outside ? A. They are so strong, the American companies. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do yoa consider this combination in Toronto has been of any advantage to the Toronto dealers ? Does it help them to keep up the prices at which they sell t A. I do not know why it would. Still, may be it does. It may help them to keep np their prices. If they sold me 5,000 tons of coal they could ask the price and get it. I could not get it anywhere else. Q. Why did the American ring yield to representations from Toronto ? A* I think that was done partly to shut out small importers. Q. What object would it be to the Americans ? A. The like of Mr. Sogers would get the benefit. Q. But it is not Mr. Bogers. Why should the sellers in the States object ta selling you ? A. I think they can keep up the prices here better, if it is in a few hands, rather than in the hands of many. By the Chairman : Q. They would rather sell 10,000 tons to one man than 10,000 to ten men ? A. Yea* By Mr. Fisher : Q. Then you think that Mr. Bogers is one of the American ring as well as the Toronto ring ? A. Yes, I do. 1 think this combination, that is, this last combination, not the old, has been worked principally by Mr. Bogers and Mr. Bailey. By Mr. Bain ( Wentvoorth) : Q. What reason have you for thinking that? A. It has been talked in the coal exchange and otherwise that Mr. Bogers broaght this up. 1 heard Mr. Bogers say himself that he was fetching about a thing that would hold them all fast. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Did he say he was connected with the American company? A. I do not know that he did that. He said he was going to have something now that was legal ; that the fine could be collected bylaw. Q, Do you know that Mr. Bogers is iaterested in coal on the other side of th© line ? A. I have heard him say so. By the Chairman : Q. And he was going to have things fixed so that if you were fined he conld collect ? A. Yes ; before, they could impose fines, and if you were soft enough to pay them you could, but they could not collect them. Soine of them paid rather than have trouble. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Was there not a distribution of profits occasionally ? A. Yes, they sold aU ♦ontracts, which makes a big profit. That was not carried on until the new combine^ Q. You never got a chance to participate ? A. They owe me 1300 or $400 on that now, and I have not got it. Q. It was placed to your credit opposite fines? A. Yes. By Mr. Fiiher : Q. There were no oaths in the old combination 7 A. No, I think that is in %hm new combine. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Do you think that the effect of this combination has been to put coal higber to the public ? A. Yes, I think it has. By the Chairman : Q. Would you be in favor of free trade in the distribution of coal ? So that every man who chooses to make arrangements with the coal producers on the other side may go and buy coal, and let every man go on his own hook and do his basiaees as he chooses 7 A. That is what I am in favor of m any business. 3— 14J 212 TflLLIAM BELL. Q. Because you were not permitted to do that you had these troubleg with the ooal section? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain (WentwortK) : Q. How is it with other grades of ooal ? Does this combination extend to steam tx bituminous coal ? A. Yes, I think it has during this last year. Q. Do you know anything of the form of arrangement on the other side? Is there a bituminous coal ring ? A. I have been told so, and I think there is, within a year or so. Q. Have there been any business transactions that would enable you to know ? A. Only that prices ran up higher as a result. Q. Has this arrangement ^interfered with the handling of soft coal too ? A. Yes, we have had about the same diflBloulty with soft as with hard coal. Q. What kind of a mine is this that Mr. Eogers is interested in, is it hard or soft ooal ? A. It is hard, but I think he is interested in soft coal as well, I heard 80, but I do not know. William Bill, sworn. By the Chairman, ; Q. Give your name, address, and occupation ? A. William Bell, real estate and coal merchant, 159 Dundas street, Toronto. Q. How many classes are there in your coal section ? A. I think two classes. There is what they call the small and the large dealers. Q. Who are the importers? A. The larger men. Q. Who regulates the affairs of the association ? A. I am a member, and it is the Executive Committee composed I think of 9 members. Q. How is that constituted ? A. Five are large dealers and 4 small. I think the old arrangement called for 7, but the small dealers thought they had not a large enough representation, and they had it raised. In the first arrangement they only had 2 small dealers. Five large and 2 small dealers it was. Subsequently we got it raised to 4 and 5 ; 4 against 5, giving the large dealers 1 of a majority. By Mr. Fisher: Q. You are a small dealer ? A, Yes, although we imported last year. By Mr. Bain ( Wenttoorth) : Q. You all import ? A. No, not all. By the Chairman : Q. Did you encounter any difficulty in importing ? A. I imported this year for the first time, and I was unfortunate this year, but I reckoned it was on account of obstructions on the railways on the other side. Q. Was there any tendency on the part of importers to keep others from importing ? A. No, I cannot say that there was. Of course I can well understand the smaller dealers rising so as to import their coal. They would sooner sell to them themselves. Q. On what terms did they sell to small dealers ? A. Sometimes they allowed small dealers 50 cents. In 1886 we got it raised to $1.00 through representations. In 1887 they reduced it 25 cents, leaving small dealers 75 cents. Q. They bound you to sell at their prices? A. The way the association is constituted he cannot get any coal without he becomes a member. Q. The association regulates the price at which he shall sell ? A. Yes. Q. And the Executive Committee have a majority of importers ? A. Tea. Q. What does that mean ? A. That thev regulate the prices. Q. And that they would control all the business ? A. Yes. The small dealers reckon that it is hardly worth while in the raising of prices for them to be there. They only receive 76 cents per ton, and that is all the benefit they get. COAL. 218 By Mr, Fisher : Q. The small dealer has to get the coal from the large dealer, and deliver it 7 A. Yes, he has to get from their yards or cars. By the Chairman : Q. Then, if you get it from the yard, the importer saves the diflference of cost of cartage to his yard ? A. Yes. Q. You do not get any allowance for that ? A. No. Q. What does it cost you to deliver after buying from the large dealer ? A. My yaid is in the out- lying districts. Sometimes we take it out of the yard, if it is screened. If we take from the cars, we take to our own yard, and screen it there. On an average it costs us about 50 cents to deliver. Some yards nearer the centre of the city it would not cost more than 30 or 40 cents. * By Mr. Fisher : Q. That will alter your profits to 25 cents ? A. Yes. Q. What are your profits when you import for yourself. When you imported thifl year what prices had you it delivered to you at ? A. About August or tho latter end of July I purchased my coal. On the other side, in Buffalo, it was aboat ^.84. We reckoned the freights at 60 cents, and cartage 40 cents. Where I was getting this delivered was nearer to my yards than previously. Screening 15 cents and loss and shortage 15 cents. We reckoned we would lose on shortage 10 cents. That amounts to 15.14. Q. At what price were you selling them ? A. Most of it at $6.00. Q. That gave you a profit of 86 cents, as against 25 if you bought from the large importers? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. This was what came by cars? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle ; Q. Did that include cartage to your eustomers ? A. No. Taken from the cars we had to team it to our own yards. Q. This cartage cost you 40 cents ? A. That is, delivered in my own yard I think it would cost that. By Mr. McKay : Q. Mr. iJogers said it cost 'him 10 cents to get to his yard^ A. He can take directly into the yard. Vessel coal comes lees than that. In the early part of the year freights are light. By the Chairman : Q. Mr. Bell has a statement here of coal purchases from other dealers, giving the coal on contract from the yard. From B. Eogers & Co., $4.d5 ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Perhaps we could continue that statement, and the witness would give us prices right into January ? A. I may state that as we made the contract with farish & Chisholm, three of us went in together to get reduoad rates on large quantities. This would be a 10,000 ton lot. We got the coal, and it was delivered to us until about the time of the exhibition, when our coal was stopped, and then I had to make arrangements with other dealers, and it was a kind of an obligation for me to get it from them. I had taken orders, and found I could not supply them •without going to other dealers. I got some from Mr. Rogers. I think 1 started in November or December. Q. When did you next begin to import direct ? A. Here lately, about a month ago. Q, You are not able to give us any of Parish & Ohisholm's figures lately ? A. They have kind of backed out of their arrangement when they found they could not supply us, but they promised to give us so many cars at the old figures. Of course we had to pay the extra freight on it. That is the way we had to do. We found it was no use going to law to compel them to do so. We would only lose money going back and forward. Q. What is the increased cost of freight ? A. About 10 cents a ton. 214 William bkll. Q. What is the last quotation yon are able to give us from Parish & Chisholm ? A. I have none recently. Q. You have been handling this 10,000 ton contract throughout? A. Yes, 'when we did not get the coal from them we got it from others. I wanted to keep up to my obligations, although under loss. We got some by vessel, but we had to pay a very heavy price for that. Freight raised and we were pat about greatly. Q. What time did you get this by vessel ? A. November, I think. I had not taken any from a vessel before that. I con Id not get it unloaded fast enough. Q. Then it is oilly from other dealers you can give us prices ? A. Yes. Q. Who is the president of the coal section now ? A. Mr. Whitesides. Q. Is he an importer ? A. No, a retailer. Q. Is the president generally a retailer ? A. Yes, for the last two years. Q. How does it happen ? Bo the importers arrange it that way ? A. I suppose they do. If they went for one of their own men they could carry it. By the Chairman: Q. Who had called that meeting ? A. The Chairman of the Executive. Of Qonrse that was the monthly meeting. Q. Was that the regular meeting? A. That was the regular meeting. Q. Not of the Executive Committee ? A. No. Q. Who are the members of the Executive Committee now ? A. To the best of my knowledge I think it is composed of Mr. Whitesides, Mr. Eogers, Mr. Gibson and Mr. Bailey. I do not know that Mr. Keith is on the Committee or not, I forget some of the dealers' names. Q. Does Mr. Gibson represent the Conger Coal Company ? A. Yes, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Eogers, I don't know that Mr. Keith is on, I am not sure, I don't think he is. I Am not a member of the Executive Committee now. I was. Q. You are not a member of the Executive Committee ? A. No, not at the present time. Q. What is ycur opinion as to this coal arrangement ? Do you think it would 1)6 better to have a trade arrangement or organization ? A. Well, speaking as a coal man, I believe it is better to have some kind of an organization though you might not have the rules so strongas they are. Q. Do you approve of this organization, this section as organized under the Board of Trade ? A. The only thing 1 disagree with is the oath. Q. Who was it promulgated this plan of putting them all under oath? A. I think it was the importers, the members of the Executive. It was imposed I think by the Executive. Q. It was done by the Executive ? A. Yes. Q. Were ycu on the Executive at that time ? A. I was. Q. Did you oppose that ? A. No, I took eo active part in it. Q. You don't "approve of it now ? A. Not of that, although I had to take the obligation, every man did it. By Mr, Bain ( WeniwortK) : Q. What is the nature of the obligation, is it not a solemn obligation or affidavit ? A. It is a statutory declaration. Q. It is not absolutely an oath ? A.I took it as an oath myself. Q. It is practically an affidavit ? A. Yes ; I looked on it in that light, and I took it in that light Q. You have to sign a declaration in taking it ? A. The secretary of the Ex- ecutive had to go round to the members, to their offices to get them to sign it. Q. Is it taken before a magistrate ? A. No, I don't think it ; it is before a Com- missioner. I think he made arrangements that some one official should go round to the offices, I don't know who the man was. Q. It was declared before an official who could give it the legal statutory eflfect ? A. Yes. By Mr. Qillmor : Q. You say that is about the only objection yon have to this arrangement ? A« Tesi I objected to it strongly on that. COAL. 215 Q. Yon gay otherwise it might be to your advantage ? A. Yes, I think speak- ing aR a coal man I do. Q. Then if it is desirable without the oath, why is it not undesirable that you have to subscribe to the rules that constitute this combination ? A. It is not every one that like to be bound. They are willing to volunteer and think that their word ought to be sufficient. That is why I look upon it as I do. By Mr. Bain ( WentworiK) : Q. It appears that with some the oath would not hold them ? A. There was a good deal of trouble there. There is no doubt, sir. I suppose that is one of the reasons that this obligation was put in force. It was on account that they could not keep the greater part of them in trim and keep them up to the rules. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Why is it you want to have an organization ? A. Well, before I was in the trade — and they discuss this matter amongst themselves — they used to cut the prices to such an extent that two or three men in the trade were ruined through it, on© man especially, and we had been told, whether true or not, that the same men who broke these prices would every two or three years go over to the other side and sret a certain amount of their indebtedness to the miners struck off and start fresh. The honest dealer could not contend with such as that. By the Chairman : Q. An organization for men interested in the same busineps you consider a good thing, that is a legitimate organization for men in the same line of business for vari- ous purposes is a good thing, but do you believe in taking an oath to keep up prices and being bound by a solemn obligation in that way ? A. No; I don't believe in the oath businesH at all. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You believe in keeping up prices? A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Suppose a poor woman comes along and you are supposed to give her coal » little cheaper, say less than cost, how would you accomplish it, how would you do it under the obligatio'^ ? A. It is an easy matter to get over that. Put yonr hand in your pocket and give it to her and let her buy it. That is the way I would do it before I would break the oath. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is there any other object in this association except in the keeping up of prices and preventing cutting? A. No ; I don't think there is. Q. Do you know what connection this organization has with the organization in tho United States, that is the organization of sellers ? A. No. Of coarse they won't sell to you on the other side without they understand that you are a member of the Coal Branch. Q. What advantage is that to them ? A. Well, I suppose it is just to protect them in the way I have just stated, that is that these parties can't go ovrer year after year and ask them to cut off a certain amount. It will protect them in that I think. That is tho only way I can see. Q. Do they impose any other conditions except that your retail price shall be kept up? A. They want us to keep up the prices whatever is made, and of course they are aware too that the Executive Committee regulate these prices, and wo are bound to keep up these prices. Q. You are not bound in any other way except to keep the prices up ? Ai That is all. Q. They allow you to do anything else you like ? A. Yes, I do not think there is any other rule or clause in their agreement than that. Q. Is there an agreement between them and you? A. No; it was only verbal. There is no agreement. I supposed that there would have been, only they knew that I was a member of the Executive Committee at that time. Q. What I mean is : is there any other agreement between your association and theirs except the prices to be kept up ? A. No, sir, not that I am aware of. 216 WILLIAM BILL. By Mr. Bain (Weniworth) : Q. Does your association farnish them with a list of members in good standing to whom they shall only sell. That is, do they farnish the American anthracite ooal dealers with a list of members of the association in good standing ? A. Yes. Q. And the American coal men will, as a rule, only sell to these men 't Is that « fact ? A. Tes; that is a fact, sir. Q. Then if yon strack a man off your list the result will be that he could not ob* tain coal from another party without their knowledge, they would refuse to sell to him direct? A. Yes. If there is a breaeh made by any member of course our secretary is authorized to notify the other side. Of course we are supposed to do that. Q. Were you formerly a member of the organization before it was made a branch of the Board of Trade — at whose instance was that organization started, was it started here or on the other side ? A. Before we became connected with the Board of Trade we were organized, but had no connection or had nothing to do with the Board of Trade. Q. The idea was to make it a more solid organization, as a branch of the Board of Trade ? A. Yes ; Bogers & Co. and the importers advised us to become members of the Board of Trade, and we agreed to do so. Q. Have the American Anthracite Association anything to do with that directly or indirectly ? A. Well, I would not like to say. Q. You don't know ? A. No ; I don't know. You see, being a small dealer, of oourse there was a ring within a ring, and the small dealers were kept out of a ^eat dehl of information that the importers knew. Q. It was tbe large shippers that handled that ? A. Yes. By the CJiJiirman : Q. You have a coal section and an Executive Committee, the majority of which are importers ; do you know that the ring that you say is within the ring have been controlling matters very largely outside of your local orgnnization of which you are all members, these importers ? A. I believe that it was the large dealers that had something to do with tbe fetching of the men from the other side to start the orga- nization. At least we believe that. Of coarse we had nothing to say, but we have always been under that impression. ^ By Mr. Fisher : Q. You really know nothing about the ring within the ring yoa speak of of your own personal knowledge ? A. No ; it was of course supposition on our part. Q. You know nothing about it ? A. Of course I was sent there by the small dealers to watch our interests. I represented the small dealers on the Executive Committee. Of course we sometimes didn't think we were well treated — the small dealers — in the way of prices and one thing and another, as we had a right to. By the Chairman : Q. You know the importers did as they pleased ? A. They were in the ma- jority. They ruled and we had to do just as they said. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That does not show in any way that they had an agreement or a ring^ amongst themselves ? A. We generally thought and wo believed that they had meetings, beoauHe everything was cut and dried when they came there. By the Chairman : Q. You were satisfied that they had ? A. We believed that there was a good deal of that done. Things were cut and dried before we met and we were in tho minority as there was always one of a majority gainst us. Now, as to the regula- tion of the prices, we thought there was no use of our being there, because in the first place we did not make anything. If they raised the price we would not make anything because we would not get a better rate from the large dealer, and if there was a rise in the price the benefit would go to the large dealer. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. That applied to those who did not import for themselves? A. Yes. In tha first place we were only allowed 76 cents and we contended that the small dealer had a right to a dollar. I COAL. 217 Q. Yoa had a dollar at one time ? A. We had a dollar at one time. That is the year before last, and we thought that they had no right to reduce it. Q. Ever since that it has been 75 cents ? A* Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Which causes a good deal of dissatisfaction ? A. Yes. There is no doubt that the smaller dealer thinks himself harshly dealt with. Q. Do you pay the same price that you pay to the importers taking their coal from the car as you do the screened coal taken from the yard ? A. Ves ; I did ono year, and when I came to understand the thing I did not do it. I would take it from, the yard — screened coal . Q. Suppose you take it from the car, how much less do they allow you ? A. Well, I am not taking any now. They would allow me only 75 cents. That la, without I made a special arrangement. Q. Just charge the same ? A. Yes. Take 75 cents off. Ot course, I had a special arrangement there with them. Q. This last year ? A. Yes. Q. How came they to make a special arrangement in the face of the constitu- tion ? A. They did it all right. Q. You bought from Eogers at $4 95, when was that ? A. I think that is thft latter end of November. Q. On a bargain you had made with him? A. Yes. Q. That bargain expired, what did you pay him then ? A. They rose the prico to $6.00. Q. They raised the price a dollar and five cents? A. Raised the price a dollar and five cents, and I had to pay very nearly $300 more than I expected. Q, And then you got some from Rae & Company for $5.42 ? A. Yes. Q. About what time were these ? A. This would be, I think, about the latter end of November that 1 got it from Rogers. It would be the latter end of October, I think, that I made an arrangement with Rogers for a thousand tons, and in December 1 ran over the amount, but in January I thought he was continuing tho same price, but I got a bill and found that he had put it up from $4.95 to $6. Q. That is a dollar and five cents advance ? A. Yes ; and then I had to haul it from the east yard and that made $6.65. Q. What do you think was the cause of that ? A. I don't know whether it was interfering in election matters or not, but I suppose that had something to do with that. He took it out of my pocket ; he made me suffer. He clapped on over $300 that I did not expect to pay. He had not charged it before when I had overran th» contract, and I thought it would continue on that and when I got the bill in January I found that I was charged during the month at $6, Q. In November he put it at the same price ; he did not charge more ? A. In December I got 30 or 40 tons over the 1,000 tons, and he did not put on the extra amount. I got it at the same figure, but when I got my January bill I found that I had been charged $6 instead of $4.95. Q. He advanced it a dollar and five cents a ton ? A. Yes; that is one oase where they took advantage of the SQiall dealer. By Mr. Bain : Q. Do the rules of your association allow that sort of thing ? A. Well, I sup- pose the association has been a kind of disorganized lately. Q. There have been symptons of breaking up again ? A. Well, I don't know. There is some dissatisfaction, I suppose, it is hard to say what will come. Q. You did not buy from the Americans in 1886 ? A. I think it was about tho «ame figure, I think so. By Mr. McKay : Q. The selling price was the same in 1887 as it was 1886. The Canadian im> porter would pay no more for it ? A. No ; I think it was higher in 1887 than it waa in 1886. Yes, I think it was a little higher. 218 0. 0. BAT. By the Chairman ; Q. In the early part of the season was it higher ? A. In the early part of the year I think it was a little higher. I think it was a little higher all the year roiind than it was the year before last. That is ihe best of my belief. By Mr. Macdougall : Q. This price, $3.84 at Buffalo, was that the long ton or the short ton ? A* A ton of 2,000 poands. C. C. Bat, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your residence? A. Ottawa. Q. What is jour occupation ? A. Coal merchant, both Toronto and Ottawa. Q. How long have you been in the coal business in Ottawa ? A. Four years. Q. How long in Toronto? A. This is the first year. Q. This is your first year in Toronto ? A. Yes. Q, Where do you purchase your coal from ? A. The coal companies on the other side. Q. They are the same agents for Toronto as for Ottawa ? A. Yes. We always get our coal in bulk from one firm or one concern. Q. What company is that ? A. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Bail- way Company. Q. They are both coal miners and coal carriers, are they? A. I don't know. I simply know we buy coal from them through their agents. Q. Which agent do you do business with ? Q. Three or four different ones. Q. At which place ? A. New York, Syracuse, CJtica, Oswego and Buffalo. Q. Are the prices uniform from these different agents — that is on the same day t A. That depends on where you buy the coal. The prices are not the same at these different points, becauee some points are farther from the point of production than others. Q. What is the point where they deliver to you — do they deliver right into Ottawa or do you buy it delivered at some other point? A. Sometimes we buy it delivered here, and sometimes we buy it at their shipping points at the lake ports. Q. What lake ports? A. Oswego. We have bought it at Prescott. No; I don't think we have taken delivery of it at Prescott either. Q. What portions of it do you get when you get it, does it come all the way through by water to Ottawa ? A. No. Q. Do you get it all in by rail ? A. We get it just as we can get it to the best advantage, and we get it during the seasons of the year that they can supply us with ooal, and they may be able to supply us from one point and not from another. Q. This last year how did you get most of your coal into Ottawa, that is this last season ? A. To Ottawa ? Q. Yes ? A. The bulk of it came by rail last season. Q. How did you get it into Toronto? A. By water. The bulk of it by water. Q. How many tons did you handle in Toronto during the season, have you any idea? A. I don't know that I can tell. I am not in Toronto myself. lam here. My partner is in Toronto and I could not tell the quantity of coal we sold last year, bat I suppose it would be in the neighborhood of probably 10,000 to 15,000 tons. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Is that hard coal or all kinds of coal? A. Hard ooal I am speaking of now. Something over 10,000 tons I think. By the Chairman : Q. Are you a member of the Cartage Company of Ottawa ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who organized that ? A. The present membersof the company. Q. Who are they ? A. Well you have all the information have you not? Yoik liave the minute book. OTTAWA. OOAL OABTAGK OOMPANT. 21^ Mr. Bain (Wentworth). — I would hardly repeat that. Witness. — As I understand, you have the minute books and you have had the secretary here, and not only that but you have had all the books of the company. Q. Who are the membeis of the incorporated company? A. Must I answer these qustions ? By the Chairman : Q. How many members are there ? A. Am I obliged to answer these quea* tions? KI am of course I am quite willing to do it. Q. I think that this question is a proper one to answer. How many members are there of the incorporated company ? A. I could not tell yon without seeing the stock list. Q. When it was organized were you a stockholder ? A. I was not. Q. Were you one of the organizers of the company? A. I was. I had to do with the organizing of the company. Q. But your name did not appear as a stockholder? A. A new company was- organized. Q. What part did you take in the organization of it then? A. I took part that any of the others did, 1 got the company formed. Q. You were not a member of it yourself? A. Not at the time. Q. How was that ? A. Simply because I was not* Q. Did other men go into the company and you not going in yourself? A. We left the matter in the hands of our solicitor. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. Are you one of the active controlling members of the organization here, or simply a quiet partner ? A. I am one of the active members. Q. Who is the president of the company ? A. Mr. Butterworth. Q. You have, as a secretary treasurer, Mr. Larmonth ? A. Yes. Q. Who are the other members ;^of the Board ? A. Mr. McCullough and^ myself. Q. How many members are there on the Board ? A. I think there are six ? Q. Who are they ? A. As I say, I cannot say without looking at the books. The stock may have been changed. Q. The members of the Board ? A. They are all members. All the members of the company are members of the Board. Q. They are all on the Board of Directors? A. Yes. I don't think there has ever been an executive committee appointed, if my memory serves me. Q. You are on the Board ? A. I am. Q. Surely you know the members of the Board? A. The men may have- changed. If a man assigned his stock he would no longer be a member of the Board. I mention Mc€ulloDgh and myself who are the principal members of the Board. Q. Have you had any new faces at any recent meeting ? A.I haven't been at. any formal meeting for a long time. Q. You don't require to meet very often? A. No, sir. Q. Have you a partner in your coal business ? A. Yes. Q. What is his name? A. Cowan. Q. Have you any partner in the business here ? A. Cowan. Q. Is he a shareholder in this company ? A. He is. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. The firm is Cowan & Bay ? A. The firm is C. 0. Kay & Company. Q, You are an individual stockholder and he is another? A. Yes. Q. Is Cowan in the Ottawa firm ? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You have f ome 24 or 25 shares haven't you? A. Eeally I cannot tell you how many I have got . Q, Do you know how much Cowan and Eay have together ? A. I do not know*. I don't remember the amount of the shares. ^20 Ci C. RAT. By the Chairman : Q. You don't seem to know much about the company ? A. Yes, I know con- ^derable. The amount of the shares 1 don't remember. I can tell you how much stock I hold in the company. Q. How much stock do you hold? A. $5,000 worth. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Do you remember how much the entire capital of the company is ? A. $15,000 is the capital of the Cartage Company. Q. All paid up ? A. Yes. Q. Some of these things the secretary has said and informed us thoroughly upon ? A.. I say this, I believe it is all paid up. Q. W&a it all paid in cash, or certain assets ? A. In cash, if my memory serves ine. By the Ghairman : Q. Did you loan the company money ? A. Yes. Q. How much ? A. I cannot tell you. We have loaned them, or borrowed for the company to carry on business which has amounted to a large amount at times. Q. Does the company borrow money on its own responsibility ? A. We endorse. All the members of the company endorse as security, and really, the members of the company supply the Cartage Company with funds to carry on their business. Q. Did you loan them money in any other way besides endorsing their notes ? A. Yes. Q. In what other way ? A. Cash. Q. How much did you loan them ? A. I cannot tell now. At different times whatever we had to spare. Q. Did any other member of the company loan cash ? A. Yes, Mr. Larmonth's books will show all that. Q. The stock of the company is $15,000 ? A. That is the nominal stock of the company for doing the cartage business. Pure and simple, that is the stock for doing carting. Q, That is, the Cartage Company does all the business. They do all the coal 1>u8iness. They take your invoices — what do they do with them ? A. You have the invoices here. Q. I am asking you when you purchase some coal, what do you do with your invoices? A. I keep them. Q. Do you hand them over to the Cartage Company ? A. I hand the coal over to the company. I have a duplicate invoice and I hand it over. Q. Who pays the amount of the invoice ? A. I pay it— our firm pays it. The Cartage Company pays us. Q. That is different from what your secretary has sworn here ? A. He has made a mistake. Q. How do you do with those who are not in the incorporated company ? Ai They pay their own bills and the Cartage Company pay them for what coal they import. Q. Thompson says he hands over the invoices and the Cartage Company pays it ? A. They pay the invoices he gives the Cartage Company. They pay it to him, they don't pay the company he buys from. Q. Then what ? The Cartage Company hands you back the money. They take your coal from the cars and deliver it in the yards and pay you for it ? A . They do* Q. Do you pay the people from whom you buy? A. I do. The Cartage Company don't take the responsibility for paying for any man's coal. Q. They pay it to you ? A. And the other parties they buy from. Q. You hand the coal over to them and they pay you? A. Yes. Q. Do the other members of the organization do the same ? A. Yes ; the same way. Q. You have an ineorporated company. You are a member of the board and you don't know the members of the board ? A. All the stockholders are members of the board. OTTAWA GOAL OABTAQK COMPANY. 22 L Q. By virtue of the charter? A. I think so, Q. ♦' Meeting of the directors of the Coal Cartage Company of Ottawa (limited)^ held in the secretary's oflSce in the office of the company. President D . Murphy, in the chair, C. C. Bay, G. W. MoCuUough, J. G. Butterworth, directors;" who is the chairman now ? A. The president. Q. Who is the president now ? A. Mr. Butterworth. Q. Did he succeed Mr. Murphy ? A. He did. Q. Is Mr. Murphy a member of the board ? A. He is not He is not a member of the company. Q. Or in anyway connected with it ? A. No. By Mr. Boyle: Q. At the time of the formation of this company, were your firm the owners of certain personal property ? A . Yes ; for carrying on business we were. Q. Horses, carts and other appliances for delivering coal ? A. Yes. Q. Were these sold to this Coal Cartage Company ? A. They were. Q. What means were arrived at to aecertain their value ? A. They were appraised. Q. Were other shareholders owners of similar property? A. They were. Q. They were appraised also ? A. They were. Q. Was there any dispute or disagreement in regard to the settlement of these things. A. There was. Q. It was a happy arrangement amongst the members of the company that all this should be taken in on the valuation ? A. I don't think it was a happy arrange* ment. Some of them thought they didn't get what their stock was worth, Q. All pretty well satisfied ? A. They had to be. They had the privilege of putting it in or selling to the Cartage Company or somebody else. It was just a matter of agreement the same as any other purchase. Q. Was it necessary for the members of the company to advance a certain amount in cash over and above these assets to make up the $15,000? A. Well, if my memory serves me right, in the first place the money was paid in, in cash. The cash was paid in and the company bought all these things . Whether there was a surplus or not, I don't know, after buying what stock they had to buy. Q. The charter members of the company are Denis Murphy, Joseph Henry Salmon, John Humphrey Shaw, William James Mackenzie, James Black and James Laing Shaw. Are any of these gentlemen members of the company now ? A. None of them. By the Chairman : Q. None of these men ? A. No, sir. Q. They hold no stock or interest at all in the matter ? A. They did. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Did they ever pay in anything, any of these men ? A. Well, they mu si have, this money was paid in. Q. Can you tell how the stock was disposed of or transferred to the present shareholders of the company ? A, It was transferred in the legal way I suppose, in the presence of the secretary and the solicitor of the company. By the Chairfnan : Q. Do you know that that stock was paid in ? A . It was all paid and every- thing straight. Q. By whom ? A . By the diflferent parties interested. Q. These are the names as follows: — Denis Murphy, of Ottawa, forwarder; Joseph Henry Salmon, of the same place, accountant ; John Humphrey Shaw, of the same place, merchant; William James Mackenzie, of the village of Buckingham, merchant ; James Black, of the village of Thurso, merchant ; James Laing Shaw, of the village of Shawville, farmer. Had any of these men been in the coal business heretofore ? A.I don't know that they had. Q. As a matter of fact the purpose of forming this company was to place it in other people's hands ? A. After the charter had been granted ? 222 C. C. BAT, Q. Yes? A. I thiDk that was it. Q. These names were made use of for that purpose ? A. I think they werd.» Q. When did you step in after that ? A. Soon after the company was formed . Q. I don't see yoar name amongst the list of stockholders, are yoa a stock- holder ? A. I am . Q. How is it yoar name does not appear in the stook-book ? A. The stock-book of the company, the list of shareholders ? Q. f es ? A. I don't think since the original stockholders, I don't think there has been any list. Q. How do yon come to be a stockholder ? A. Because I bought the stock and paid for it. Q. Who did you buy it from ? A. From the original stockholders. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. This is really not thelistof the present stockholders of that company? A. 'So, By the Chairman : Q. Who did you buy it from ? A. From the stockholders. Q. How many shares were there? A. I don't remember the number of shares! •Our firm had $5,003 worth of stock. Q. Who did you buy your shares from ? A. From the original stockholders. Q. Who were the individuals ? A. I cannot tell you that. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you a certificate of your stock ? A. I haven't By the Chairman : Q. No transfer made ? What did you give for your stock ? A. $5,000. Q. Who to ? A. To the original stockholders ; it was paid in to Mr. Larmonth, the treasurer. Q. I am referring to the individuals ; here are their names that they had paid 10 per cent. Did you pay these men back that 10 per cent., or were they just put up as stool pigeons ? A. I don't remember ; I don't understand what you mean by stool pigeons. Q. Did you buy your stock from these men ? A. I don't know what individual I bought my stock from. Q. You are on your oath now. A. I do not need to be reminded of that. Q. I think perhaps you do. This is a serious matter, because this is the whole of the stock. You say you got some stock, but you don't know who you got it from f A. Do you want me to violate my oath and say 1 bought my stock from some indi- vidual there, and I cannot tell you which individual transferred his stock to me ? Q. Who did you negotiate with for it ? A. I tell you the formation of this company was got up by the coal dealex-s here, by the present stockholders, and it wag done through our solieitor. When it was formed the stock was transferred to the present owners. I don't know which individual transferred his stock to me. Q. What was the object of putting these men up instead of the organizers ? It is usual for an organization like this to put their names down. What was the object in putting these men down ? A. I cannot tell yon. Q. ' You are one of the organizers, you say ? A. I was. Q. What was the object in putting other men's names besides your own, that is, instead of your own ? A. We were advised to do it, or I think, at least, our solicitor must have advised it. Q. Do you know what it was for ? A. I don't know of any special reason. Q. It was done though ; did you ask the consent of these men to subscribe ? A« We must have. Q. Who furnished the money to pay their 10 per cent.? A. I cannot tell yom that. Q . You are one of the organizers ? A. I think our firm furnished one-third of it, I think so. Q. Have you any transfer of one-third of the stock from these men to your Arm ? A. Weil, I don't think bo, aniees there is a transfer in the Cartage Com- OTTAWA COAL CABTAGK 00MPA5T. 223 pany's books, which yon have, or have had. I could not tell you whioh individual transferred his stock to me, or to my partner either. Q. This money was paid in by you. This money that appears opposite these men's names was paid in by yoa ? A. The company was organized by the present stockholders, Mr. Butterworth, Mr. McCallough and myself, and whether they fur- nished the money that was originally paid in there or not, I cannot tell trom. memory. The books of the company will show that. By Mr. Boyle : Q. These are forms of the endorsations when money was borrowed, and whoH the individual became liable ? A. Yes. Q. Wasn't the credit of the company sufficient for that, with that capital c^ ♦16,0u0 ? A. We never asked it. Q. Is the capital of $15,000 on hand at present, anywhere now ? A. Yes. Q. In what institution, how is it held ? A. It is held by the con.,pany. Q. In no other way than just in the form of carts and other appliances. Is thevtt no cash ? There is in the hands of tho treasurer in the bank. Q. You are not able to say how much ? A.I don't think there is very maoh. By the Chairman: Q. There are some minutes here that I will read to refresh Mr. Ray's memory. The following resolutions were passed at a meeting held 14th July, 1886 : — " Mr. J. L. Shaw presented his resignation as director of the company. W. T. McKenzie moved, seconded by J. H. Salmon, that his resignation be accepted, and that J. G-. Butterworth be elected one of the directors of the company. — Carried. " Mr. W. J. McKenzie presented his resignation as director of the company, when it was moved by J. G. Butterworth, seconded by J. H. Salmon, that his re- signation be accepted, and that G. W. McCullough be elected one of the directors a€ the company.— Carried. ** Mr. J. H. Salmon presented his resignation as director of the company, when it was moved by J. G. Butterworth, seconded by G. W. McCallough, that his reeignft> tion be accepted, and that C. C. Bay be elected one of the directors of the company. — Carried.' ' " At a meeting held on the 16th July, 1886, Mr. Denis Murphy tendered his re- signation as president of the company. Mr. C. C. Ray, seconded by G. W. McCal- lough, moved the following resolution which was adopted : — Resolved, that the resignation of Mr. D. Murphy be accepted and that J. G. Butterworth be elected president of the company and C. C. Ray vice-president. By the Chairman : Q. Has your company to your knowledge tried to prevent any person from de- livering coal in the city of Ottawa ? A. No. Q. Tried to prevent them purchasing coal to be delivered in the city of Ottawa? A. No, sir. Q. This Cartage Company is very ingeniously managed. Who was it that made out the gcheme or plan of it, you ? A. I do not know that I can answer that. Q. Who was it that organizad the plan by which operations were conducted ? A. It was left in the hands of our solicitor to obtain the charter and pat it in legal shape. Q. The charter simply incorporated the company under the Ontario Act, whick is easily obtained, but there is a skilful arrangement oi the business. Where did yoa get that scheme or plan by which you carried on your business as a Cartage Conb- pany. Did you go over to the States and find out what plans they were working there ? A. No, sir, it was all originated here. Q. What is the arrangement by which your company work ; what is the ban- ness arrangement by which you carry on your business ; what business do yoa do ? A. Coal cartage business. Q. Tell us a little more specifically; for whom? A. For ourselves, for the Cartage Company. 224 0. 0. BAT. Q. Other individuals and firms? A. I cannot say that we do business for other £nuB. Q. For instance, Mr. Thompson who was here said you did for him ? A. "We Imy his coal and fill his orders. Q. Bay his coal for how much ? A. What it costs him. He pays the current prices it is delivered at. Q. How does he pay you ? A. Monthly. Q. What does he pay you ? A. What price ? The price he sells it for. Q. Not the price that he buys it for. He buys it at a certain price, then what does he do ? A. Sells it to the Cartage Company. Q. For how much ? A . What he pays for it. Q. If he buys it for $6 ? A. He sells it to the Cartage Company for 86. Q. How does he sell it again, if he sells it to customers, how does he sell it to the Cartage Company ? A . The Cartage Company fills the orders. He sells to the Oartage Company all the coal he imports, and the Cartage Company fills the orders at retail prices. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Does he get a commission ? A. No commission whatever, in the way of a commission. He gets a percentage of the profits of the Cartage Company as agreed on. By Mr. McKay : Q. The Cartage Company is the medium through which the profits are dia- tributed ? A. We never had but one arrangement with Mr. Thompson and that was made last spring or summer. Q. What proportion of the profits did you give bim? A. I do not know, speak' ing from memory. He told you the other day and I think he was correct. I have not looked to see, and I do not know where the agreement is that was made with Hr. Thompson. Q. Did you pass a resolution at your Board ? A. No. I think there was some formal agreement signed. Q. How could you do anything without a resolution of the Board? A. I do not know. It may be there, I have not looked to see. ^ Q. When was it he made the arrangement? A. Last summer or early in the spring. Q. You held a meeting on the 9th of May and adjourned till the 5th of July, but had another to arrange this bargain with Mr. Thompson. You do not put all your business on the minutes ? A. I do not know. Q. There is oothing here ? A. I think it was an agreement signed between the officers of the Cartage Company, the same as any firm would make a bargain with another firm. Q. Does not everything have to be done as an incorporated company, by minutes ? A. It is possible there should have been, but there was not, if it is not there. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You have some memory probably of the arrangement you made with Mn Thompson and Mr. Easton ? A. We have no arrangement with Mr. Easton. Q. Is there any arrangement with any other ? A. We fill orders for Mr. Thompson, and Mr. Clemow and Mr. Brown. Q. Their profits depend in some measure upon the quantity of coal they take orders for ? A. The arrangement was made in the beginning of the year what pro- portion of the profits they were to have. Q. What is your recollection of that agreement? A. I cannot tell. Should I be obliged to tell the amount ? I do aot know from memory. By the Chairman : Q. Tell us what you do know. Your minutes are silent and we must have infor- mation from some source ? A. I cannot give you aooarately. I do not know th& amount. I will find out, There is a percentage. OTTAWA COAL CARTAGS COMPANY. 225 Q. What is your own percentage ? A. According to what stock I hold in the company. We get a dividend on the stock we hold. That is the only profit I get out of it. Q. Do you pay a percentage to Senator Clemow, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Brown somewhere in accordance with the quantity they dispose of lor you ? A. It was an amount agreed on at the beginning of the year ; a proportion of the profits. Q They are tot stockholders ? No, Q. You hold ODCthird of the stock? A. Yes. Q. You say you get in proportion to the stock and get one- third of the profits? A. Yes. Q. Where does Mr. Thompson's profits come in? A. He gets a share before- hand of the profits he is to get. Q. What is it ? A. fie said here, it was one-eighth, and I think it is correct. Q. But the shareholders get all; how does he get any? A. They do not get any until he is paid. By Mr. Boyle: Q. That is the one- third you get is after all these others are paid ? A. Yes. (I. What is left is divided into three parte, and you get one ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Last year the profits were $33,000 ? A. Yes, in that neighborhood. Q. What was done with that $33,000 ; divided among three shareholders ? A. I think the books will show. Q. What was the arrangement with Mr. Thompson last year ? A. He has told you. Mr. Larmonth was here. Q. Yes ; but he said there were things he could not tell us. Now members of the company come and they cannot. The profits were $^3,483.23, and a dividend was declared for the whole profits? A. Ab my memory serves me, last year Senator Clemow was to have the average profit on a certain number of tons. 1 think it was arrived at in that way. Q. How much did he receive in that way ? A. I cannct remember. Q. Have you any idea ? A. I have an iaea it might be about $3,000 or $4,000, but I am rot positive. Q. Where would you get this information if your books did not show it and your memory cannot ? A. The secretary's books must show it. Q. What did your firm get ? A. 1 suppose we got one-third of that. Q. After Mr. Clemow was paid ? A. According to the reading of that resolu- tion 1 should think it would. 1 ehould eay that was after Senator Clemow was settled with. Q. This was the amount divided between you three shareholders ? A. Yes from the minutes of the books, I should thick it would. Q, What did your firm receive then? A. Somewhere ab^ut $11,000 from the Cartage Company. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Is your share of the profits aflPected by what business you turn into the company ? A. We turn in all our business. Q. If Mr. Butter worth turns in more business than you do, does he get any more profits ? A. No; he only gets his share on the stock. Q. Then contingencies do not aflfect the dividends that you individually derive ? A. The dividend is on the amount of stock we hold in the company. By Mr. Bain ( Wentioorth) : Q. Your association interferes with no other individual purchasing from the American association ? A. No. By the Chairman ; Q. Do you make a bargain with your company asking them not to sell to any other person in Ottawa ? A . Ottawa is an open market. Coal can be brought in here from the lakes by water and it can be brought in here from tidewater. New York. We bring in a large proportion of the coal that is consumed inOtttawa by that way j 3—15 226 «. O. RAT. by the canalH and Lake Cbamplain. It nsed to come in all that way. The bulk probably comes by rail now, not only coal dealers bat individual coal consamers bring their coal tbat way. Q. Oswego is as near the coal mines as New Y^ork? A. Yes; bat there is a good object in bringing the coal that way. You can sometimes bay better at tide- water then at the lake ports. Q. The profits last year were 833,000. That was divided among yoa three, Mr* Butterworth's firm, yoar own and Mr. McOuUough's, giving you each about one-third of that amount ? A. Yes, I think so. Q. The only profits paid ontside of that were to Mr. Clemow ? A. Yes, I think that was all. Q. About how much did he receive as profits ? A. I do not remember, but I think it was in the neighborhood of $3,000 or $4,000. Q. What service did you render for that $11,000. Just held the $5,000 stock? A. That is not all. We had a coal business and kept two otfiaes open. Q. Whereabouts ? A. In Ottawa. Q. What parts? A. Elgin Street and Sparks Street, and sold coal in both offices and had office expenses, book-keepers, canvassers and bad debts to collect out of that. Q. Had you any other business besides that? A. Yes, I am the agent ot the -Canadian Express Company. Q. And transact the coal basiness in the same place ? A. Yes. Q. So that the office expenses are divided between the two ? Q. The expenses of the office are divided ? A. Yes. Bat help in the office in the coal department has nothing to do with the express. It is a separate department and I pay different men. We have two men who do nothing bat look after coal be- sides myself, in the Elgin Street office. Q. Your office is on Elgin Street you say ? A. Yes. Q. The capital stock is $15,000 and the profits were $33,000? A. That is the nominal capital of the company but it is not probably one-fourth of the capital which is required to be famished ; which we have to famish to carry on the business. Q. I see they borrow large sums from Mr. Bay, Mr. Batterworth and Mr. McCullough. I see they are paid large interest ? A* Yes, but they may borrow | more from one than the other. , Q. When the stockholders loan money to the company they get paid for it f A. Yes. \ By Mr. Boyle: Q. Is it fair to deduct from that $33,000 anything you have to pay in running the business, from your private business ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any idea to what these expenses would amount, among the three of you ? A. I have not an accurate idea, our Elgin Street office of the coal department, the expenses there of salaries putting in a salary for myself Q. That would hardly do. Where is this basiness of the Cartage Company car- ried on ? A. Elgin Street, corner of Queen. It is a separate office altogether. Q. What is the expense of running your proportion of the coal business ? A. I cannot give you an accurate account without looking at the books, but it woald amount to several thousand dollars. Q. $2,000 or $3,000 ? A. More. Q. You pay two men exclusively engaged in coal ? A. Yes, in our own office. In the other we are under the expense of rent. Q. What salaries do you pay your two men ? A. I think $3,000 to $4,000; or 94,000 to $5,000 would be the expenses. By the Chairman : Q. What salaries do you pay ? A. $950 down. One, $950, and the other, $500, I think, and there is another man I do not remember what he is getting. Q. About how much ? A. It is under $500. Then we have taxes. Q. You would have to provide an office to do your express basiness ? A. I -would not ; the Express Company pay for that. We pay $700 rent for the other office. OTTAWA COAL OARTAOB COMPANY. 22T Q. Is that exclusively for coal ? A. No; a portion of that is rented off. By Mr. Boyle : Q. The expenses would not exceed $1,000? A. I think they would exceed $4,000. Then you want to add bad debts and capital required in the business. Coal is not sold here for cash. I suppose $50,000 on an average would not cover the out- lay in the different offices during the year for coal sold on credit. By Mr Bain ( Wentworth) : Q . Is this statement of $33,400 of profits, a book-keeper's entry, or was the money paid over ? A. The money was paid over. Q. Then you collected enough to pay the Cartage Company's expenses and left enough to pay this over to you ? A. Yes ; we took $11,000 of the apparent profits from which you have to deduct all our expenses and bad debts. Q. As a matter of fact, when the year's business is wound up, you have collected enough and handed over to the Cartage Company enough to leave this balance ? A. The Cartage Company collected from us enough to pay us. Out of that profit we have to collect from our customers. Q. I understood you to say you never interfered with other parties who wished to purchase anthracite coal ? A. We do not interfere, Q. Then if a man can show that he can pay for his coal he can buy at any time ? A. He can . Q. There is no list that you supply to the American producers ? A. No ; there is nothing of the kind . By the Chairman : Q. Do you know of any effort to prevent George Harris from buying coal from the Americans ? A. I do not. Q. Or any objection made by them to selling him coal ? A. I cannot say that I know of any objection. Q, Do you know of any correspondence or verbal statements about it ? A. I do not. Q. You have no knowledge about it ? A. The party that George Harris buys his coal from I never bought any coal from. If I wanted to buy coal from these parties they might sell, but I have never bought from them. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. If your association had brought any influence to bear on the American coal companies to prevent anybody getting coal would you know ? A. I think I would; I know I did object last year. When I say object, I mean that Mx. Easton had coal here when I could not get it. His coal was lying on the cars here and when they investigated it, the coal had been on the cars for 30 days and over. When I said Mr. Baston I should have said Mr. Swift Until we made a complaint we did not get coal nor could not get it fast enough. It is not an uncommon thing to be unable to get coal fast enough. Q. Then the representations might have been made under these circumstances, Mr. Easton was being favored? A. I complained bitterly; not that Mr. Swift was treated too well, but that I was not treated well enough. Q. How did that have the effect of preventing him from getting his coal ? A. They investigated it and found that the coal had been lying here for a long time and he had not taken it out. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is not the Montreal Coal Dealers' Association in connection with your association ? A . No, sir ; our business is all done here. By the Chairman : Q. Which is the more scientific place for doing business, here or in Toronto ? A. Here, I think. There have been statements made that men who were not in the ring in Toronto could not import coal. I would like to say we never found any difficulty in getting all the coal we wanted, whether in the combination or not. By the Chairman : Q. Were you doing business outside of the coal section? A. We were not asked to join it, but we were sore we could get all the ooal we wanted without joining. 3-15i 228 ALXXANDER B. HABGRAFT. Q. You did join ? A. Yes. Q. When ? A. When we started business. Q. Then you did not go on without being a member? A. No; I had good reasons to believe that we could get all the coal we wanted in Toronto ard we were not asked by the American Aesociation (if there is one) any question. I .suppose there may be such a one. We were not asked by them to join the Toronto Aesocia- tion or by anyone else. By Mr. Bain ( Wmiworth) : Q. Still you found it in your interest to join ? A, It is in the interest of any dealer to belong. Q. Have the parties you purchased from dictated to you the prices you should sell at in Toronto ? A. No, not in any way. In fact I was told by a gentleman I supposed to be a member of the association, that they insisted on the Toronto dealers having some organization, or in other words getting better prices for coal, or pay them for the coal on the spot ; or I think pay cash before they got any more. I think the representatives of the coal dealers seJliDg coal in Toronto went there and called a meeting of the dealers. Q. You are only speaking of what you heard ? A. That is all. Committee adjourned. House of Commons, Ottawa, 6th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace- in the chair. Alexander R. Habqraft, of Cobourg, grain and coal dealer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What we want particularly to koow, Mr. Hargraft, is how you do your coal business in Cobourg ? A. Whether we have any combination ? Q. Yes. Have you any combination in the business there ? A. No. Q. You do your coal business, as your grain business, with perfect freedom ? A. Yes. Q. Where do you buy your coal ? A. At Oswego. That is the anthracite coal. Q. How many dealers are there in Cobourg ? A. Four. Q. Are they all importers? A. Yes. Q. You get yoar coal from Oswego ? A. Yes, we do. Some of the other dealera^ get it from Charlotte, Fairhaven and different points. Q. I suppose that means that you get it by boat, that is during the season ? A. All the anthracite cosl by boat. 1 have never got any by rail. Q. What were the prices you paid last year ? A. We bought our coal early in the season, and we paid different prices for different sizes of coal. Q. This statement which you have given me is a statement of the May and June business ? (^Exhibit 36— C and D.) A. That is altogether. We got all our coal by the first of July. That is all that we purchased last year with the exception of one cargo from another firm. Q. 2,165 tons? A. Yes. By Mr Guillet : Q. And you purchased it all before the Ist of July ? A. Yes, By the Chairman : Q. From whom V A. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Was it delivered before the Ist of July? A. Yee. By Mr. Guillet : Q. And you had no difficulty? A. Later on, I think there was trouble. By the Chairman : Q. At Oswego or at Cobourg? A. Yes, in the vessel at Oswego. COAL. 229 Q. These are the gross tons. Can yon give us the net tons ? A. Yes, there are •only two prices after all. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What is the price ? A. $4.25 and $3.90. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What was the freight from Oswego to C >bourg ? A . We got onr freight very cheap, 25 cents, but the freight advanced afterwards. We made a contract with some vessel owners to bring our coal at that price. Others had to pay more. Q. Bat your price was 25 cents ? A. Yes. By Mr. McBougall (Pictou) : Q . And what is the insurance ? A. The insurance does not amount to very much. There are only four or five dealers in Cobourg. It does not amount to much over one cent per ton. By Mr. Boyle: Q. How much is the cargo ? A Prom 200 to 2i0 tons. Q. About 2 cents a ton then ? A. Yes, about i cents a ton. That would cover the insurance. Q. You have no wharfage dues to pay ? A. Yes, 25 cents a ton wharfage dues. Q. Is that for the net ton or for the gross ton ? A. That is the net ton. By Mr. Fisher: Q. But the freight is on the net ton? A. No, the freight is on the gross ton too. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There is a rebate, is there not? A. Yes, there is a rebate. Q. A rebate of 25 cents ? A. You see they give us the invoices first, and they give us 25 cents rebate on the whole thing. Q. On the whole, what is the meaning of that ? A. That is a rebate to their regular customers. I think all coal dealers in Canada get that rebate. Q. We have not heard of ^ hat before ? A. That is on the gross ton. Here is a circular that gives the net price. $1 per gross ton would be 83.57 per net ton. By the Chairman : Q. $3.57 and $3.26 is the price per net ton that you paid for your coal ? A. Yes. Q. And the wharfage, insurance and freight would be 52 cents per net ton ? A. Yes. It is delivered on the -wharf, and wa have to pay 15 cents a ton for unloading. Q. And then have you to cart it to the yard ? A. Our yard is handy, and it only costs us 5 cents a ton. The Chairman— In all the prices that we have had quoted to us by all the witnesses we have examined there has been nothing said about 25 cents a ton rebate. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do you know that that is given ? A. I have been given to understand that it is. Q. Is it given to you always? A. No, not every year. Q. But it was given this year? A. Yea ; some years we get a rebate and other years none at all. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The larger dealers give a larger rebate ? A. I do not know. Q. But it has been the case has it not ? A. Some years. They use to have a scale of prices, 25 a ton discount for certain quantities, and over that 5 or 10 cents a ton more, but they stopped that 2 or 3 years ago, and since that they have not made any larger discount. By the Chairman : Q. I see here a letter from a firm which says : " Our prices to-day are $4.75 per gross ton F.O.B. for grate and Qg^, and $5.00 for stove and chestnut, with 25 cents per ton off to regular customers. i?he8e prices are subject to change at any time without notice ?" (Exhibit 366.) A. That shows that it is a general thing to give that 25 cents to their regular customers. 230 ALEX/liNDER B. HARaBiFT. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Have J oa had any dictation of any kind from the American coal dealers with regard to the price you sell at ? A. No ; they have never dictated to us at alL Q. They have never written to you about it as to prices ? A. No, we have al- ways been at liberty to sell oar coal an cheap as we like. By Mr. Wood (^Westmoreland) : Q. Da you buy direct from the miners ? A. We buy from the agent of the miner at Oswego. Q. Do you know what position he occupies ? Does he sell on commission or is he paid a yearly salary ? A. Well, we really do not buy from him. The company send a man through from whom we buy, and then we have to get our coal from this man. By Mr. Fisher : Q. It is from their traveller that you buy ? A. Yes. Q. They send a man who hands his orders over to their agent at Oswego who honors them? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Do you know what position this agent occupies ? A. I think he gets acorn- mission on the coal he handles^ I do not think he is paid a salary but I have no ■way of knowing. Q. You say it costs you 5 cents per ton for cartage ? A. Yes. Of course none of the other dealers in the town get it carted as cheaply as they have to draw further. By Mr, Fisher : Q. You and the other dealers in Cobourg have had no other arrangements among yourselves as to the price at which you shall sell ? A. We are not bound in any way. When we settle the price we notify each other, but we do not bind our- selves in any way. For instance, if we were tenderirg for any large amount, we are at perfect li berty to tender as low as we like. Q. In ordinary sales to ordinary customers, lor instance house coal, do you vary your prices. Do you find that sometimes one sells cheaper than the other ? A. W& generally get such a small profit that we have not got much room for cutting. Q That comes up to the point at which you sold coal during the last season, the rates in the fall and then again in the winter. Would you give us your rates in October or November and then again in January? A. We sold at $5.25 for all sizes. Q. You buy at different prices and sell at the same price ? A. Yes; wo use so little of the larger sizes that is hardly worth while considering. The bulk of our, coal copts the dearer price. Q Then, at what price in October last did you sell that? A. 85.25 delivered in people's yards, and $5 anywhere else. Q. What does it cost to deliver it? A. 25 cent:*. By the Chairman : Q. Your selling price is S5.25 delivered ? A. Yes, and $5 in our yard. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The cost was really $4.54 and 25 cents for delivery. You say you got $5 in the yard ? A. Yes. For instance we screen all our coal which amounts to about 10 cents a ton. Then, there was the duty which we paid on the first cargo we got ia last spring, and the freight was 25 cents and the wharfage 25 cents. Q. What is the wharfage in Toronto? A. Scents. Q. And 25 cents in Cobourg ? A. Yes. The Government do not own it ; the town gets that. Then unloading costs 15 cents. Now this item i^i approximate ; we count 15 cents for labor and carting to the yard, but I do not know exactly what it does cost. By Mr. GuilUt : Q. That does not include screening? A. No. This screening amounts to about 10 cents and then the delivery is 25 cents, that is to places within a certain distance. That makes a total of 91.15. COAL. 231 By iJie Chairman : Q. You have a margin of profit and if yon were doing a pretty large business, for iDHtance in a large city like Toronto, would you not consider that as a pretty good profit for yon? A. I do not know, if a man had no other business. Q. That would leave a profit of 53 cents clear of all expenses ? A. Of course we raised the prices. That ^^as our price up to the first of November and on the first of November we raised it to $5.50 I think. We were selling in the winter at Q. Comparing this with Toronto the only apparent diflference is that the wharf, age in Toronto is 5 cents and at Cobourg 25 cents? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. And the cartage in Toronto costs let's than in Cobourg ? A. I think it costs 40 cents in Toronto. They have a longer distance. By Mr. Wood ( Westmorelnnd) : Q. You sell all kinds of coal at the same price ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fi&her : Q. At what price did the coal rise to during the winter? Aj $6 was the highest. By the CJiairman : Q. You were selling it before the Ist November at $5.25 and you had after all expenses were paid a profit of how much ? A. Somewhere about 53 cents, that is the stove coal, and then we got 78 cents on some of the coal. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Out of that you pay your office expenses and the rental ? A. We own the property. Q. Is there any charge there for office expenses? A. Yes. Q. Up to the 1st November the price was $5.25 ? A. I think that was the price. I do not remember but we put it up on the 1st November to either $5.60 or $5.75. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What was the prices at the mine ? A. That went up to $5 on the 1st November. (ExMbit 866) By the Chairman : Q, That is the gross ton ? A. Yes. Q. At any rate you had your coal all in ? A. Yes. Q. Then you raised the prices on the Ist of November ? A. Yes, either to $5.50 or $5.75. Q. And then after that? A. On the let January we put it at $6 and it has been that ever since. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What amount of coal did you sell last year? A. About 2,500 tons. We have some coal on our hands. There was one cargo that does not appear on that statement that we bought from another firm. By the Chairman : Q. What amount of coal do you estimate was consumed in Cobourg? A. About 5,000 tons. Q. And then you are quite satisfied with ihose profits, selling at $5.25, $5.50 and $6 ? A. If we had no other business except the coal business I do not know that those profits would pay us. Q. But in a large city selling 10 times as much you would be quite satisfied with the profits, you think yon could make a living with them ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth') : Q. Did you buy at the mines at the subsequent prices, when they were raised ? A. Of course we would have to raise the prices to the amount we would have to pay» By Mr. Fisher : Q. The rise at the mine would be equal to your rise? A. Yes. Q. So that your profits would be about 53 cents right along ? A. Yes, 233 ALEXANDER B. HARGRAFT. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Yoa kept your prices acoordiag to the figares on the American side ? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Do you lo^e mach by bad debts? A. No, we are supposed to do a cash business. Q. As a matter of fact do yoa lose anything ? A. We have. By Mr. Gullet: Q. You lost that 50 per cent, duty? A. Yes. We applied to have it returned but were not successful. The others, however, did not get any the start of us, not one. By Mr Ftsher : Q. Are you aware of any combination on the other side of the line which regulates the prices at which you can buy the coal ? A. There use to be, but I un- derstand that in the last few years there is not. They suy there is none now. Q. Have you ever tried to get any coal from anybody else than the Laoka wanna Company? A. Yes ; but we could not get as good coal. Our caal is the Scranton coal, which is the very best. By the Chairman : Q. Yoa think there is no combination among the American producers ? A. They «ay there is not. Q. Have you any further evidence beyond their anxiety to sell ? A. I know we could have got another 25 cents rebate from another company, but it was not as good coal. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Ttiese companies send around their men, their travellers ? A. Yes. Q. And they come to you and try to sell? A. Yes, sir. I believe there is a ept at retail prices ? A. There were no dealers but wh&t were in the combina- tion. I don't think that we had any enquiries last year for coal. There is nothing to prevent them buying coal in the States you know. Q. Were any of them refused admittance into the association.? A. Not that I ivmember of. Q. Do they require to be ballotted for when they apply? A. They have to be accepted by the Board of Directors. There was an application from a man who wasn't in the trade at all, who had been a canvasser and who wanted to continue COAL. 235- his calliog and applied for membership and he was refused becaase he was not a dealer. Q. In what sense ? A. He had no yard. He wasn't a coal merchant in way way. Q. Who was your secretary? A. His name is Bell. Q. I suppose records are kept of all your meetings? A. Yes. Q. You haven't these with you ? A. JSTo, sir. £y the Chairman ; Q. Your secretary here is a man named Robert Holman ? A. That is an old book. His name is Kobert Bell. Q. What is his address ? A. To tell you the truth I don 't know. He wa» employed as a book-keeper in the Montreal woollen mills when I last jsaw him, The^ prices, I may say, when we formed the association we laid out a plan that it is necessary for a coal dealer to receive at least 50 cents a ton profit on his coal and pay his expenses, and if you figure these up you will find, taking into consideration the carting and weighing and other expenses, that there is an average of about 50 cents a ton on all coal. In the early part of the season there was a reduction mado to churches, religious in^itutionsand schools of 25 cents a ton off this retail price which was adhered to during the time that they generally bought their coal — the early part of the year. By Mr. Guillet : Q. That was a rule of the association ? A. Tes ; there was a special price made for that. Q. How did you arrange for the tendering for city coal for different institutions ? A. We met and fixed a price. Q. At which they shall go in? A. Yes. Q. Is that the only one submitted ? A. These are the only prices that the members of the exchange submitted. Q. They are at liberty to tebder ? A. Anybody can tender, but not at a low rate. Q. Who gets the tender if there is no competition ? Is there any rule by which the tender would be given ? A. I suppose the man who has the most friends in the Council would get the contract. Q It is not arranged by the association who should have tbe tender ? A. Oh^ no, we don't do anything of that kind. Our association don't appertain at all to the nature of a trust in any way. Competition is just as keen between the dealers aa before. We don't cut prices and we don't pay commissions. Q. Are the dealers at liberty to employ canvassers? A. Only their own clerk. They must not engage a person to go outside, other than their own clerk. The clerk is allowed to go and canvass according to the rules of the book there that yoti see. The clerk can go and canvass, but we have broken up this system of paying commissions on orders. Q. They may advertise ? A. Oh, yes. Q. Are they allowed to give discount? A. No, sir. Q. Or sell on time ? A. There is no rule about that. It is for their own pro- tection that they don't want to do that. Q. They sell, as a matter of fact, for cash? A. Yes, as a matter of fact, for cash. Q. How many of the producing companies are represented in Montreal by agents? A. Three or four. Q. Not all of them ? A. Some of them are not represented. Q. Do they sell any coal in Montreal? A. Oh, yes, my goodness, yes. There is coal comes outside of the agents there . Dealers go to New York and buy coal ; the outsider goes to New York and buys coal. By Mr. Gtiillet : Q. These men who are not represented in the association may put it as low as they please 5 A. May put it just as low as they choose or any way they like. 236 GEORGE F. nABTT. Q. There is do limitation ? A. No, no limitation. As a matter of fact any- dealer can go to New York and get his coal; there is nothing to prevent him, but he could not buy it any lower than we sell it. Oar prices are made low enough to take a trade. Q. Are these wholesale prices not arranged by a Board ? A. No, sir. Q. Is there no arrangement among the agents in the city as to what the prices ehall be? A. There is no arrangement amongst them at all. Oar prices are fixed by the company in the States, and I get word if there is a change made. Q. As a matter of fact, are they always uniform ? A. Pretty much uniform as they are all over. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Why is it that a dealer cannot buy his coal any cheaper in New York than you sell it to him ? A. Because we are there to do business and we cannot let any other man do that. Q, Is it because the New York dealer charges the Montreal dealer more ? A. The New York dealer has no interest whatever in our association. Q. Is there any difference between your purchasing price and the New York market? A. Wholesale coal ? Q. Yes ? A. Between our prices ? Q. Can you not buy coal cheaper in New York than the single dealer or mem- bers of your combine ? A. I don't think so - no. The Chairman. — Mr. Hartt has explained that he is the agent of the Delaware and Hudson Canal Company, coal producers. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. [ suppose these wholesale prices you quoted were the prices you quoted as agent of that company ? A. Yes. Q. These were the best rates you gave your customers with the exception of 10 cents per ton for large orders ? A. Yes. Q. 10 cents per ton, not 10 per cent.? A. There is no 10 per cent, in coal. By the Chairman, : Q. When was your association formed, Mr. Hartt ? A. Just about one year ago. Q. Not till then ? A. No, sir. Q. How has business been done previous to that ? A. It had been done in a very mixed manner, every man for himself. Q. The same as other lines of business? A. Yes and worse. Q. You aie the agent of the Delaware and Hudson Canal Company. What is the nature of your agency ? What are your powers? What kind of fee8 do yoa get ? You sell all the coal that that company sell in Montreal, do you ? A. Yes. Q. You get a commission ? A. Yes. Q. J hen you are a coal dealer as well ? A. I am a dealer in other coals as well bat no other hard coals. Q. Do you compete with these men you sell to ? A. Yes, I retail alongside of them. Q. What is this Delaware and Hadson Canal Company ? Are they coal miners or coal forwarders, or both ? A. Both. Q. Whore are their mines ? A. Pennsylvania. Q. What part ? A. They are scattered through the anthracite region. Q Different mines ? A. Forty or fifty. Q. What is the general way that their coal is forwarded to Mo u treat ? A. They ship most of their coal through Eouse's Point. They own the road to House's Point. Q. They ship coal to and from there ? A. It is brought by the Grand Trunk. That is the way ihey bring most of the coal to Montreal. We bring some by water, too. Q. By Lake Champlain ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell us what the freights are ? Suppose another person bought coal, what are the freights to bring it to Montreal ? A. Well, I am afraid it would take a good while to post you up in the coal business, but coal is shipped from a COAL. 23T great many diflferent points. It is shipped for Montreal, beginning on Lake Ontario from Fairhaven, Oswego, and then from Whitehall and all the way down different points on the Hudson as lar as New York, and it is impossible to tell you what the freights are from each point. Q. What is the freight say frem Oswego to Montreal for coal shipped to Oswego ? A. It is out of my line altogether, but I think it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 81.35. Q. From Oswego to Montreal ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth ) : Q, That would be by water ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. That would make coal in Montreal a lot dearer than coal in Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. Your retail price is about the same as Toronto ? You are doing business there more cheaply than some other places. The freight from Oswego is about $1.35 ?" A. Yes, I think it is about the rate last year. Q. That is about the best rate, was it ? A. Yes ; but I am not thoroughly famiiiar. We don't ship from there. Q. You come by cars ? A. Yes. The Chairman. — He says that this is about the lowest rate last season. Mr. Boyle. — They don't patronize that route though, apparently. Witness. — There are others that do. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You get it the other way cheaper ? A, It suits ua better to send it over our own railroad. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You own the road to Rouse's Point, and you would naturally use your own road ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What is the name of that road to Rouse's Point? A. The Delaware and Hudson. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you remember the prices that your company fixed for contracts to Montreal last season ? A I don't know. Q. What was the result of these tenders ; did some member of the company get these contracts ? A . Do you mean tendering for the corporation ? Q. Yes ? A. Well that was taken by a man who out the price of soft coal. There were five tons of soft coal wanted, and he put that soft coal down to a very low figure and got the contract. By the Chairman : Q. Was that the waterworks contract? A. That was the city contract. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. They only asked for five tons of soft coal in the tender ? A. I think it is five tons ; a very small quantity. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Could they not have bought the coal direct from you; you say you sold to large institutions ? A. Religious institutions. Q. You would not sell the city at wholesale rates ? A. Well, we didn't last year. There was a special discount to institutions that deserve it. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Were his prices the same? A. Yes, his prices were the same. Q. I understand you to say he cut you out of the contract by cutting the price of soft coal and got the contract ? A. That was a door we left open that we had for- gotten. By Mr. Guillet : Q. He was an outsider ? A. No, he was one of the members. By the Chairman : Q. Did these parties who purchased coal from your company pay you ? A. Yes^ 238 aKOBQE p. HARTT. Q. Aro you the treasurer who gets the money from these men ? A. Yes ; I am responsible for the whole thing. Q. You are certain that the largest discount that has been allowed during the last season was ten cents a gross ton ? A. I only speak for myself, sir. Q. I am speaking of your company. That is the largest discount allowed by your company on that list of prices ? A. Yes, this ten cents per gross ton. By Mr. Ghiillet • Q. Are you not prohibited from contracting yourself with the city as agent of the company by the association ? A. No, sir, Q. You can contract with the city at these rates if you choose ? A. No, sir, I could not do that. I have to fix the same rates as the other members for anything except dealers who are members of the Exchange. I can sell to members of the Exchange at the price my company tell me to get for the coal. Q. You said you could sell to large institutions E think, A. Beligious instita-' tions. These are specially provided for by the board. The whole object of the Coal Exchange is that the dealers shall make about half a dollar a ton. They are entitled to that as any man who has been in the business will know. By the Chairman : Q, Is there any competition there. What are these companies who are selling^* in Montreal? A. There is the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western and there is the Lehigh Valley Coal Company. I think these are the principal ones besides my own. Q. Is there active competition between you three companies to get the business of Montreal ? A. Yes, keen. Q, There is no pooling of receipts between the respective companies? A. No. Q. You do not work jointly, you are competing parties? A, Yes. Q, But have to keep uniform prices? A. We have no control. Q. These are your prices at these dates. Do you know as a matter of fact that these were the prices of the other coal companies on the same dates? A. I do not know that they were but I think they were. We have no arrangement as regards^ wholesale pricea, but I think the sales agent in the States intend to make prices about the same. That is wholesale prices. Q. So that you in Montreal compete ? A. I merely obey the orders I get. They ^j do the same. I do not know what telegrams they get, but I tbink they are about thej same. If not and we were lower we would do all the business. , Q. How does the quality of coal compare of these companies ? A, Very mach the same. By Mr. Guillet .' Q. Do you t-eli coal o^^tside of Montreal ? A. Yes. Q. To what other place ? A. All through the Province of Quebec. Q. Any in this Province ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you s;ll in Ottawa? A. No, sir, it is out of my district. We cannot send coal to Ottawa by that route. I am the representative of the Province of Quebec. The Delaware and Hudson Canal Company sell coal here, but I do not know whom they sell to. Q. In selling outside of Montreal do you offer the prices according to the 4 distance ? A. It is a small trade and the total quantity in any one place is small and it is generally sold at F. O. fi. prices. By the Chairman : Q. Do you sell in the city of Quebec ? A. Yes. Q. Have you the prices you sell at in Quebec? A. No; I cannot tell you that. They are regulated according to the competing rates in other places. Q. Yon might possibly be selling lower in Quebec than in Montreal ? A. No ; it costs more to get it there. By Air. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do the Welsh or English oompanies compete io Quebec ? A. To a certain extent, bat very little. COAL. 233 Q. That will affect your rates more than anything else ? A. We do not pay any attention to that. You mast remember that our prices are fixed by the coal com- panies in the United States and they are regulated by the state of.trade there. If they can get more for coal to go to Chicago it will go there, unless wo give thesamet rates. By Mr. Landry ; Q. Have you any reason to believe that the two other rivAl companies are regu- lated by the agents from whom they buy in the States ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have yon any knowledge whether these gentlemeD and those from whom jove. buy have an understanding as to the prices ? A. I presume they do, but I do not know anything about it. Q. Then your prices and those of the companies you speak of are about the same? A. Yee. Q. Then there is no competition ? A. There is very keen competition. Q. How can that be ? A. In selling not in prices. You muit try and be a. good fellow with your customers. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Have you any idea of the amount of coal coming into Montreal this year? A. 210,000 or 215,000 tons. By the Chairman: Q. How much do you bring in ? A. About 70,000 tons. By Mr. Quillet : Q. You offer terms as to time ? A. No, we try and get cash every time. By the Chairman : Q. Your terms are the 10th of next month ? A. We try and get that but sometimes we do not succeed. Q. Do you deal in soft coal too ? A. Yes sir. Q. Where do you get your soft coal ? A. Buy it on the market there. Q. Where does the soft coal for the Montreal market come from ? A. Mostly from the lower ports. Q. What do they sell it for? A. I know very little about it. Certain of the poorest qualities sell for 93, of (Jape Breton coal. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How is it you cannot compete with them in soft coal ? A* We are not soffe coal men at all. Q. You are not agent for the soft coal mine ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You do not supply it to dealers in anthracite" A- No. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. I think you stated that any other dealer in Montreal pould, but in the United States it would cost him about the same as through you ? A. Yes. Q You mean he would have to pay a margin to the dealer and not get it direct from the mines ? A. There is nobody buys direct from the mines. The large companies, understand, have their offices in New York, Buffalo and the largest points. They might go to some of. the large companies not represente 1 in Montreal. Q. It would cost the same in that case as buying from you ? A. Yes. Q, Do you know how the prices compare in Montreal and in the A merican cities ; the selling prices wholesale and retail ? A. Generally about the P . O. B. price and the freight added. Q. The only difference being of freight ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What is the freight from House's Point to Montreal? A. 50 cents. Q. Have you any arrangement, or has your company with the railways for- special or exclusive rates ? A. No ; but I know we could not have under the inter- strate law. Q. But the Canadian railways I speak of ? A. They do not come under the inter- state law ; it is over the border I speak of. 240 OEOROE F. HARTT. Q. Do you know of any arrangement between the railways and these coal com- panies? A. No. Q. Yoa do not think there is any such arrangement? A. I do not think there is as far as our company goes. I do not know about other people. There cannot be ander that law. They have to have the rates ^tuck up in the stations. Q. That does not apply to Canadian roade ? A. it is a very good law and it is the foundation of this exchange of ours to have equal prices to everybody. It is far more satisfactory to the buyer as well as to the seller as long as the prices are not exorbitant. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. The object is simply lo regulate prices ? A. About on the basis I have men- tioned of 50 cents a ton profit ; to maintain it and to see that it is maintained. Q. You state that this association has been formed about a year? A. Yes. Q. How do the profits compare noM with what they were before the formation of the association ? A. They were varying. We got all we could get for coal. Q. Would that average 50 cents a ton ? A. I think they did taking the year ronnd, and some decent men would be asked a high figure for coal, much more than the ecalawags who would go round and beat the prices down . By the Chairman : Q. About these prices, in the early part of the season the gross profit was 94 cents and averaged that right along. Off that you say you made 50 cents profit ? A» There ib cartage and weighing. Q. There would be 40 to 45 cents of expenses for cartage and weighing, so that yon had about 50 cents ? A. It cost more than that. Q. You say you had 50 cents clear ? A. It was about that. It was more in B(Mne cases and less in others. Q. Then your expenses would be about 50 cents per ton ? A. We calculate about that. Q. Some statements have been made here as high as $1.30 per ton. What do you think of a statement of that kind ? A. It would not be that in Montreal. What town was it it. Q. Toronto ? A. There might be some expenses we are not aware of. Our ex-^ pensesare fully 50 cents per ton. Q. And your profits over that are about 50 cents a ton ? A. Yes, we expect that. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. I think you said that you do not remember the prices that the corporation. paid? A. No, sir. Q. That was fixed by the Exchange ? A. Yes. Q. How did that compare with the prices your selling to other large buyers? A. I think it was theTegular retail price. Q. I did not happen to be in when the prices wore given. How did that com- pare with your wholesale prices to munutacturers? A. Thu figures are all there {pointing to the list on the table). Q. Then the corporation paid the retail price? A. I believe they did. There wouIj be no reduction to them any more than to a small dealer. Q. What quantities did they take? A. 500 tons ; bat it is taken to so many placeH,'to police stations all over the city. That includes cartage and handling. Q. I» there not a different price for the wholesale consumer and the retail oon> snmer. Does not a man who buys 500 tons get a better price than the man who bays 10 tons in the year? A. You mean individuals ? No, sir, there is no reduc- tion made except they were religious institutions or schools. Q. A manufacturer who used from 100 to 500 tons of coal would pay the same ? A. Manufacturers last spring were made a special price to those using 100 tons o£ ooal to be taken in one delivery. By the Chairman : Q. Wnat was the special price? A. It was our wholesale price. Q. They got the same price as the dealer ? A. Yes. COAL. 241 Q. I see here you provide for the expulsion of a man who undersells ? A. Yes, Q. What would be the particular disabilities if he were expelled ? A. We do not sell coal at wholesale prices to anybody who is going to sell it again unless he is a member of the Exchange, and it he is expelled he is not a member of the Exchange, Q. You said he could buy coal in New York at about the same price? A, There is nothing to prevent him. Q. The disability then is that he would have to go to the trouble of buying it OLteide? A. That is it. William Bowman, of London, coal and wood dealer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Have you a Coal Association in London ? A. Yes ; a Coal Exchange. Q. Have you a constitution ? A. Yes. (^Exhibit 37a.) Q. You beard the evidence of the last witness. In what particular does it differ from your constitution ? A. Well, the origin of ours is different. Theircj was spon- taneous on their part; ours was compulsory. Q. When was your association organized ? A. In 1884. {Exhibit 37a, Preamble.') Q. The origin of yours was compulsory ? A. Yes. Q. What were the difficulties under which you labored? A. Well, the diffi- culti es were tbat the coal business was getting demoralized, and every man was getting his own price, and we were cutting down until there were no profits made. Q. Do you not find that other business men from whom you buy your boots or your coat, do you not find that they get demoralized also, as you say ? A. Well, two blacks do not make a white. Q. Do you think it is a great wrong that there should be competition? A. Well, as regards the coal business, every man thinks he can run the coal businessi Farmers who have obtained some means, «nd perfectly green as regards the coal trade, come in and try to run it, and now we have 18 of them. Q. And now you want to get them reduced ? A. Some parties wrote to the Buffalo Exchan^re calling attention to the state of our market. By Air. Gmllet : Q. Who were they? A. I do not knt)w. We have Messrs. McWilliams,^ Smith, Underbill and Orton. These are the representatives of all the large coal men in Buffalo. Q. You say some one wrote to them? A. Yes; I do not know all tbo coal men in Buffalo. Some of tbe London dealers had sent them to meet them at th& Tecumseh House on a certain day. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know who it was that invited the American coal dealers to come over ? A. I have said distinctly that I do not know. Q. You do not know ? A. No ; I had my suspicions. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You were complained of ? A. I was complained of. Q. By whom ? A. By some parties that I do not know. Q. In the first place you were complained of to the Buffalo dealers, ard before that you speak of having given offence by cutting the rates. Who were these men to whom you gave offence ? A. I do not know. It was the trade generally that got demoralized. By the Chairman : Q. What was yoar offence ? A. The offence was, according to the Coal Exchange, tbat we were selling too low. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There was a Coal Exchange at that time ? A. There was not. 3-16 242 WILLIAM BOWMAN. t Q. But according to your previous statements there was a Coal Exchange? A* There was no Coal Exchange in London, but there was a Coal Exchange in Buffalo. Q. This was in 1884? A. Yes. Q. And then the Coal Exchange was formed ? A. Yes. * Q. Of which you are a member ? A. Yes. Q. And of which you were vice-president? A. Yes. Q. How long did you continue in that office? Twelve months. Q. What office do you hold now ? A. I was elected p resident next year, but I am now a simple member of the exchange. Q. What are the conditions for membership ? A. That they will agree to be bound by the rules of the association. Q. No certain fee ? A. Oh, yes, $5. Q. Is there any obligation, any oath to be taken ? A. None. Q. What punishment is inflicted for violation of the rules ? A. No punishment, except being reported to Buffalo. Q. You report the name to Buffalo ? A. Yes. Q. What does that mean ? A. They say they will not sell them any coal* Q. You report the name to Buffalo then in order that they will no t receive any more coal ? A. They would examine into the case, and if the offence was strong against them, they would not get any more coal. Q. But do you not examine into the case first ? A. Yes, and report the evidence to them. Q. You report the evidence and request that these persons be not supplied with coal? A. Yes. Q. You have an arrangement with the Buffalo men to that effect ? A. Yes. Q. Do you get all your coal from Buffalo? A. Yes, all the hard coal. Q. What is the freight from Buffalo to London? A. The summer rate is 96 oents and the winter rate $1.03. That is the net ton. Q. What is the price, and where do you purchase ? Do you purchase it delivered or in Buffalo ? A. In Buffalo or at the Bridge. Either at the Suspension Bridge or at Buffalo. Q. What were the prices during the last season ? A. Well, they varied very largely. In June and July the price was 03.84 per net ton (Exhibit 37 — b . ) and in November and December $4,91 (Exhibit 3*7 — c). Q. What were the prices in August, or did the June and July price prevail ? A. No, they came up gradually. Q. This was the price at the Suspension Bridge? A. Yes, either the Suspen- 8ion or International Bridge. Q. You do not know the prices in August ? A. No. The price in November and December was $4.91. Q. Do you not kcjow the prices in August, September and October ? A. They varied. They ran up between these two points. Q. What were they ? A. I have no invoices. Q. Did you purchase any coal during those months ? A. I bought principally in June and July. Our stocks began to run low at the commencement of November and we bought again. Q. Do you get a monthly price list ? A. Yes, but I have none with me. Q. I see that the prices at Rochester are $3.67 in July and 25 cents discount off? A. We do not buy from Rochester. Rochester is much nearer the point of production. We get the Bridge prices. Oar prices are those at Buffalo or at the bridge. Q. Then you do not know the prices for August, September and October ? A. Ko. Q. What were the prices you paid in November and December ? A. $4.91 was what we paid then . ByMr.GuilUt: Q. The net price withoai any rebate 7 A. Yes* OOAL. 24? By the Chairman : Q; Did you pay any other prices in November ? A. We paid as high as $5. Q. And the lowest? A. Was $4.91, we paid as high in December as $5.30 per gross ton. Q. The net price in Jane and July was $3.84 ? A. Yes. Q. $4.90 per net ton is more than $5.30 per gross ton ? A. Tes; we paid as high as $5.70. Other parties paid still higher. I was reading the invoice. Q. Let as understand each other. Now you say you paid in December as high as $5.30 ? A. $4.91 would be $5.50 gross. Q. Well, then you said you paid as high as $5 . 30 gross. What did you mean 1 A. Well, we paid from $5.30 to $5.50. We paid $5.30 and another dealer paid $5.50. We were paying all sorts of prices. Prices varied very much at that time. Q. You were giving your own prices ? A. I am giving the prices to the trade. Q. How do you know ? A. I got the list when I came down. Q. You cannot swear to other prices than your own ? A. I can swear to the invoices. I have heard of it being as high as $5.75. Q. These were the prices at the Bridge ? A. Yes* Q. What prices are you paying now ? A. We pay $4.25 per gross ton now. , Q. $4.25 per gross ton ? A. Yes ; just now. Q. How much would that be net? A. $3.79. Q. Your present price of coal is $3.79 ? A. Yes, this month. Q. And your freight how much ? A. $1.03. Q. Your unloading costs 15 cents ; slacking and screening 25 centa, and I see teaming put down at 30 cents, that makes a total of 70 cents ? A. There is a memorandum at the bottom. Q. These are the total expenses? A. Independent of our yard and ofKce expenses, insurance, advertising, etc, Q. What is your retail selling price to-day ? A. $6.50. Q. I see you have marked here $7.00 ? (Exhibit 37—4.) A. That was up to the commencement of this month, until the fall in the price. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. What is yoar average profit per ton ? A. Taking the hard and soft coal t(^etner, we do not expect to realize above 30 cents per ton, when all our expenses and bad debts are taken into account. We consider we are doing a very good thing if, after squaring everytlyng off, bad debts and all, we get a profit of 30 cents a ton. By the Chairman : Q. Your present price, that is the price you pay for your coal, is $3.75, and your freight $1 03, and your expenses 70 cents. That makes a total of $5.52 ? A. There is a memorandum at the bottom. Q. Yes, there is this at the bottom : " This does not allow anything for bad debts, which are sure to occur, to a greater or less degree, nor office expenses, rent of yard, insurance and interest on capital invested, advertising, etc." You get about $6.50, and it costs you $3.79, with $1.03 for treight and 70 cents for expenses. What was the price before the last quotation you gave, $3.79 ? A. The price of coal during January and February was $4.46. (Exhibit 37 d). Q. And before that ? A. Before that it was $4 91 and before that, $3.84. Q. But you have a statement before that showing that it was $4.24 ? (Exhibit 37 — d.) A. That is January and February. Q. Well, you say $4.46 ? A. It is down since. Q, You give us a number of pricee. Who was Henry Langdon & Co. ? A. A Buffalo firm. Q. And delivered to A. D. Cameron ? A. One of our largest coal dealers. Q. You are giving us his invoices. Would it not be better to give your own ? A. I have given some of my own. There are no discounts off these invoices. Q. Did you get any discounts off these ? A. No. Q. Do you get discounts sometimes? A. No; never any discounts off these invoice prices. Prices differ from the circular. 3— 16i 244 WILLIAM BOWMAN. Q. Ilave you got a circular ? A. No, but they do not fix the price. The prices oan be altered any date without notice. Q. But they send you a circular when they change the prices ? A. They send us a circular every month. Q. And they send you a circular when they alter the price ? A. They keep altering the price according to the demand at BuflFalo. Q, Yon have no invoices of a later date than January and February, or of an earlier date ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. What time of the year do you buy the bulk of your coal as a rule ? A» Generally in June and July. Q. You get larger deliveries then than at any other time ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. I see you are quoting coal at $4.91, and you state that the November and December prices were $4.91. 1 don't see any here among your invoices at $4.91 1 A. These are other invoices. Q. Would it not be better to qaote your own invoices ? A. What is the gross ?^ Q. $5.30 ? A. $4.'73. Q. $5.00 ? A. $ 1.46. Q: The price on December the 16th was $4.46 and $4.73 was your price. I see you bought coal in Toronto ? A. That is the Delaware and Lackawanna. Q. From Elias Rogers ? A. He was acting as their agent. Q. On December the 15th it was $4,46 and $4.73 ? A. Yes. Q. January the 10th, you bought it at $4.75 ? A. Yes. Q. That was how much net ? A. $4.24. Q. January the 28th, $5.00. What was that net ? A. That is $4.46. Q. In February you boaght again at $4.46 and later on at $5.20. How much ia that? A. $5.20, that is $4.64. Q. And again at $4 90 ? A. $4 90 is $4.H7. Q. Did you buy in Montreal ? A. A smaU quantity. Q. What price did you pay in Montreal ? A. It is not delivered yet. It is $4.25 gross. Q. That is how much? A. $3.79 net. Q. How do you sell to manufacturers? A. 50 cents ^less than the retail price. Almost all our manufacturers brought in their own coal. Our large manufacturers brought in their own coal . By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Wliat was the highest price you sold at last winter at retail ? A. $7 but the greatest bulk of it, I suppose three-fourths of our trade, was at $6.60, because those who bought early made arrangements for their winter's coal and we sold at $6.50. By Mr. Bain, ( Weniworth) : Q. Did you deliver at these prices through the winter as they wanted it ? A.^ As they wanted it. And we delivered it in bags as well. By the Chairman : Q. What were your selling prices along through the season, give us the pricea at what you sold ? A. The first price was $6.60 for stove coal. Q. At what dates? A. That was May the 17th. We continued that until November the 16th. Q. You just kept at the one price $6-50 ? A. Yes. Q. Then ? A. November the 10th, it raised to $7.00 and our manufacturers imported their own coal. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. What is the quantity of coal coming to your city, the city of London, that is yearly ? A. Well I suppose there comes — I cannot exactly tell you without figur- ing it up— from 16,000 to 20,000 tons of hard coal There is more soft coal comes in than hard. COAL. 245 Q. flow many dealei-s have you altogether ? A, About 18 dealers now, Q. And you make a profit of only half a dollar a ton on the average ? A. We don't make an average profit, clear of everything, above 13 cents, taking hard coal and soft coal together. By the Chairman : Q. You have a plan for expelling members for breaking the rules or undersell* ing ? A. The only plan as I said is reporting to Buffalo. Q. You don't expel these yourselves? A. No. Q. You are at the tender mercies of the importers? A. Yes. Q. Have you had any experience in reporting members lor breaking the rules? A, I think we only reported one. Q. What happened to him ? A. It wasn't very satisfactory. They said they had better let the thing go, after a reprimand. Q. You wanted more than a reprimand ? A. We didn't ask for anything ; we merely reported the case to them. Q. You said it wasn't satisfactory ? A. The evidence wasn't satisfactory to them, not so satisfactory as they should like. Still it was sufficient to get a repri- mand. Q. Did that satisfy your London Aesckiiation ? A. It satisfied them as far as they could be satisfied. Q. Were they satisfied with that ? A. They were not. They thought some more definite action should be taken. Q. They thought he should be punished ? A. They thought that he should be so dealt with in such a way that he would not do it again. Q. What was his offence ? A. Importing coal and selling it under prices, and other underhand proceedings. Q. The object of your association is to prevent freedom of trade ? A. Well, I would not say so. Q. Do you believe in the principles of free trade ? A. Well, limited free trade. Q. What do you mean by limited free trade ? A. I mean free trade under such regulations as would not be biassed by politics, but governed by common sense. I believe in free trade in some countries, but I don't believe in free trade in this country. I believe in free trade in such a country as England, but I do not believe in it in such a country as this. Q. Do you believe in free trade in a country, among all the people of the country? A. There are regulations which are necessary for conducting business on some principles. Q. Has your exchange worked satisfactorily since you established it? A. Well, no ; it has not. Q. What difficulties have you had ? A. We find a great many parties who do cut and you cannot put your hand on them. Q. You don't have a system of fines at all, you simply report? A. We simply report. Q. How do you do with tenders for public institutions in London ? A. The way it has been done is with the civic institutions. They are apart from the Gov- ernment institutions. Q. The civic institutions— public schools, you have waterworks? A. Wo have waterworks but they don't use any coal. They have merely a supplementary engine. They have waterpower and they only have a 50 or 60 ton supply in caso of necessity. Q. You have public schools and other institutions? A. Yes, they call for tenders. Q. Local Government and Dominion Government have institutions there ? A. Yes. Q. How do you do with them? A. We deal with them differently. Q. How do you deal with the civic institutions? A. The eivic ones are brought before the committee and they are arranged at a fair price and the coal is 216 WILLIAM BOWMAN. to be delivered tbroaghoat the season. There is no place for storing any qnantity. They have to take it in 5 and 10 ton lots, and the committee met and estimate the quantity of coal to be used by these institutions. They fix a fair profit on it and then they Fay, how will you dispose of this? And it has been disposed by the com- mittee either by paying tor the contract or you can draw lots for it. The associa- tion having fixed upon the price for the city or whatever the institution is, and then they draw lots ani the man who draws it gets the contract. Q. You draw lots. You can do it difterently by putting it up at auction ? A, Yes, so as to let the highest bidder get it. Q. Which way have you adopted ? A. It has been adopted both ways. Q. How did you do last year? A. It was sold by auction last year. Q. What was it sold for ? A. Well, it was for $70, 6SU, $90, and $50 up for the different institutions. Q. Before that you drew lots ? A. It was open to do it the other way. Q. Did you adopt the plan of drawing lots? A. We never adopted any one plan ; it was open to do it either way. We call all the dealers together and lay the thing before them and say : •* Gentlemen, there is the price the association has fixed upon as being a fair price," the same as we ask them what the retail price will be for the season ; it is open for yon to say. Q. They adopted the auction plan ? A. They did the last two or three times. Q. What was done with the money ? A. It was divided equally amongst all the parties, irrespective Q. And eve»y member of the association got his share ? A. Yes. Q. And equal share ? A. Yes. Q. You haven't any classes ? A, No. Q. Irrespective of the amount he sold ? A. Yes; irrespective of the amount h& sold. By Mr^ Casgrain : Q. Who got the contract last year ? A. O'Bierne got one. Hunt got another and Bailey got another. Three different parties got it. By the Chairman : Q. What was the total amount realized from the three ? A. I suppose about $200. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q, These were city ontracts? A. Yea. Q. How about the Ontario Government contract ? A. The Ontario Government contract was open. By the Chairman : Q. Open for competition ? A. Yes. Q. How about the Dominion Government contract ? A. It was open for com- petition. Q. With what result ? Who got the contract ? A. I got the contract for th© Asylum. By Mr Guillet: Q. At what rate ? A. 84.98 I think it was. By the Chairman : Q. You were selling at that time? A. This was egg coal. Q. You were selling at that time at how much ? A. It was the opening of the aeason. We put it in with our teams. Having nothing else to do we always put it in In Jane and July. Q. Your retail price then was $6.30? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. I suppose all these contracts are made before midsummer as a rule ? A» Well the city is for ever putting it off until the last thing. Q. In the case of the asylum contract you delivered it out of your early pur- chat cb ? A. Yes. One object of the association in bidding for the city price is it ^oes not interfere with ns in regard to the prices for the Local Government. GOAL. 247 By the Chairman : Q. You have given us your price for the Local Government contract. That •was $4.98 for the asylum. Was that all the Local Grovernment institutions there t A. Yes, that was the only one they had. Q. Then for the Dominion Government? A. The only one is the Military College, besides the Custom House and Post Office. Q. Who got the Dominion Government contract ? A. Well, Hunt, 1 think, has it. Q. How much ? A. I don't know, because it didn't come into the adsociation at all. The association took no cognizance of it. Q. The association didn't take any cognizance of the Local Government either t A* No. Q. They left it an open matter ? A. Yes ; an open questioni Q. Yours was the lowest tender ? A. Yes ; I presume so. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. I suppose the Local Government advertise for all their institutions altogether ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you make any different rates to churches or hospitals, or other institu- tions of that kind ? A. We do not. Well, the nunneries, there are two members of the apsociation Roman Catholics, and we never interfere with them. Q. They sell to nunneries at what price they like? A; We never interfere with them. Q You would interfere if they sold to other institutions outside of those at lower rates ? A. Yes . Q. Ytu don't give that price outside ? A. They burn so very little. Q. Is there not a college there called Hellmuth College ? A. They burn tar. Q. Don't they use any coal at all ? A. Very little. They get the refuse tar from the oil refinery. By the Chairman ; Q. What about future delivery in your sales ? Are you permitted to take orders for future delivery ? A. Well, yes; if the parties pay cash down for it and you charge them for storage. Q. How many coal dealers have you? A. About 18, By Mr. Bain ( Went worth) : Qi I suppose none of them make coal an exclusive business? A. No; they have wood and other matters. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Do you regulate the prices of wood ? A. We don't. Q. How many dealers were there when the association was organized ? A. I think there were 10. Q. There are 18 now ? A. Yes. Q. Are there any more applications coming in ? A. I don't know ; I think it has got to the limit. Q. You don't limit the number? A. No; we don't limit the number. Q. If others wish to go into the business they can ? A. Certainly. Q. As to the business, the large number who went into the business would make the business more sub-divided and the profits would be smaller ? A. Yes. Q. The business would give less profit, unices you raised the rate ? A. Yes. Q. In that case you would require to raise the rates ? A. Yes; but our object is to prevent more coming in, because really they had raised the rate above $7, and I said I would not consent to it. I said 1 would break the association up first, and they retained the $7 rate. By the Chairman : Q. I don't quite understand how you made that contract with the Local Govern- ment for $4.98 and sold to everybody else at the same time for $6.50. That is SI. 52 advance, and then you say you only average 30 or 50 cents ton profit ? A. In the first place you take the coal right off the cars ; it is put right into their sidings^ 2i8 WILLIAM BDWMA.N. right alongbide the institations, and to deliver it as tfoon as it comes in. You get the summer rate on your coal. You get cash every month after the coal is delivered and you get your cash in advance on your payment for your coal. Tnere is no inter- est to meet, no yard rent, no clerks employed, because the asylum has a clerk to iveigh it, and our teams at that season of the year would be lying idle, and the horses eating their heads off. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. You are satisfied with a small profit ? A. We are satisfied to keep our horsod going and keep business moving. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You charge interest to parties who don't pay you ? A. If we did not get paid wo could not fulfil them. By Mr. Bain QWentwarth) : Q. As a matter of fact do your agents make large contracts for winter consump- tion? A. jNo; wc don't. Q. As a rule when the parties purchase in the summer time you deliver at the eame time ? A. We fill them when they pay as the retail prices. We fix the prices for our retail prices that will allow us to deliver through this period. We have no coatrol over the rising prices during the season. Q. It is almost sure to rise ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. There in just one question now. We understand you quite positively to say, that tde prices given here on these invoices are the prices you paid without any re- bate or discount? A. There is no rebate or discount on any of them. Q. That is the net price you paid ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bam ( Weniworth) : Q. Can you tell us about the average difference between the invoice prices and the circular prices? A. You cannot do it. Sometimes they will adhere to it firmly. Q. Do you ever pay more than the circular prices ? A. Yes. A little more in this last September and January. We had to go to Buffalo and buy from individuals. For instance our asylum supply we could not put it in for that now. We could not get the coal. By Mr. Bain (Weniworth) ; Q. You will have to put in enough to keep them warm? A. Yes, we put in 1,500 tons for that. Q, What is the amount they use in their yearly contract? A. About 1,700 tons 01 hard coal, and they burn some soft coal, I cannot teil how much. It is a new departure this year that they are burning so much hard. We used to supply them ^with 1,600 or 1,700 tons of soft coal. They burn wood also. By the Chairman : Q. What is the extent of your coal business? A. 10,000 tons. Q Do you supply half the city supply ? A. That is hard coal. Q. How much more soft coal would be used ? A. 20 per cent, more soft coal. Tar is now coming into use a great deal. Q. How is it used ? A. They are getting more tar than before from the refin- er ies. The process gives a larger amount of tar, and it is coming in competition with soft coal. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : . Q. They are right on the spot in London Bast? A. They removed to Petrolea, but they are coraiog back now. There are the Spencers and others coming back ; but the tar is brought there. There is one point I would iiku to say with respect to the Uoal Kxchango in Buffalo. They said it was not for their benefit only, out for ours. Thoy found so many parties running into the coal business, and had so many bankrupts, that they must have the business on a basis they could depend on. Q How do you do now ? A. Four members of tha Coal Exchange have to sign Anew man's document, and they would not sign for one whom they had no coufi- 4ence in. OTTAWA COAL CARTAGE COMPANT. 24d Q, Then yoa practically gaarantee each other's coal businees ? A. We try to- keep it as respectable as we can. J. G. BUTTBEWORTH, SWOm. By the Chairman : Q, Give your name, oceapation and address? A. J. G. Butterwortb, coal dealer, Ottawa. Q. Are you a member of the Ottawa Cartage Company ? A- Yes, sir. Q. How many members are there in the corporation ? A. Six directors. Q. Who are they ? A. Eay. McCallough, Cameron, floss. Q. What Mr. Ross ? A. W. D Ross. Q. What are Cameron's initials ? A. H. Cameron. Q. Who else ? Myself; I think that makes six. Q. That makes five? A, Mr. James Cowan is in. Q. Are thei e any other members of the incorporated company ? A, That is alL Q. These are the whole members ; they are all directors ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was it planned and organized this company ; who were the promoters ? A. The charter members. Q. There were a number of charter members. We were told here that the]ir ^ere not the men who promoted or planned out the formation of the company? A. You do not want to know the charter members. Yoa want to know the pro- moters. These were the promoters, whose names I have given yon. Q. Were any of these whose names have been given charter members ? A. Not Q. What was the object of having these names there instead of y oar own ? A. I think these are qaestions aside from the matter. This is a company; it is not* combine you are speaking of. Q. This is a company with an object that we are investigating. We are investi- gating this company, the mode of formation and all the particulars about it. Wa want to get at the particulars. We do not want to press the question unduly bat the formation of this company is one thing which Parliament has authorized us to investigate and it is necessary that we should have a full investigation and fall par- ticulars from you. What was the object ? These were the organizers but what was the object of having other names on the charter? A. I do not think I can tell yoa that. If the Committee really wish it, but I have given yoa the promoters of th© company and you have the charter members. I think you have all you want. Q. We have the names of the chartered members? A. I do not think that has any bearing on the matter. Q. This is one of the questions you are bound to answer. Is that the opinioa of the Committee ? Several Members. — Yes. Q. The Committee have decided that it is a proper question to answer ? A. I can hardly give you a proper answer to the question. The charter members resigned for the preseut members. I speak for myself, I cannot speak for the others, i do not know ; in fact it is a question I can hardly answer you properly. I wish to answer it right ; but these persons that the stock was transferred from to me I gofc the solicitor to put their names in the charter and the stock was transferred to me. Q. You got the solicitor to put their names in the charter; but their signatures appear as subscribers to the firtt stock and the whole of the stock ? A. They trans- ferred it to me ; that is the two of them to whom I refer. Q, Two of them to yon ? A. Yes. •Q. You have not aaswered the question : What was the object of getting it done that way ? A, I really cannot answer that from the fact that there might be several objects. Q. What was your object in having that done. It is a plain question and adcaita of a plain answer ? A. As far as I can say myself I did not want to appear as & 250 J. G. BUTTBRWORTH. ^taember of the Cartage Company in the charter in the first place. That is as far as I can go. Q. You did not want your name to appear as the Cartage Company in the first place Y A. No. Q. Why ? A. I do not know thai I had any particular reason. It was nothing I was ashatned of. It was a business transaction. Q. You did not want your name to appear as being interested in the Cartage CSompany and you got these other men to subscribe. Who furnished the money ? There is 10 per cent, of their money narked paid up? A. I furnished it for mine. Q. What names did you get signed for you ? A. Mr. Shaw's. The two Mr. Stk&w'a. Q. You got them to subscribe to the stock and you furnished the money, and they immediately transferred the stock back to you ? A. Yes ; thoy transferred to Q. You gave these names as those of directors. How much stock do you hold ia the Cartage Company ? A. I hold between $4,000 and $5,000. Q. And how much does Mr. Eay hold ? A. About the same. Q. And Mr. McCoUough ? A. The same. Q. Then about the other three gentlemen, ^Cameron, Ross and Cowan. TLow much do they hold ? A. I do not know how much Mr. Cowan holds. Q. How much does Mr. Cameron hold ? A. 1 cannot tell you positively. Q. You know pretty near ? A. I know about Mr. Ross ; he owns two shares. Q. And Mr. Cameron about two shares? A, I think in about that neighborhood. Q. You transferred two of your shares to Mr. Ross ? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Ray two of his to Mr. Cowan ? A. I do not know anything about it. Q. You had one-third of the stock yourself ? A. Yea. Q. You gave two shares to Mr. Ross so as to make the full number of inoor- jwrators? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was paid by Mr. Roes for his two shares ? A.I think you got that froiD the secretary tieasorer. He gave you evidence of all these matters from the Q. I do not remember Mr. Ross' name being mentioned? A. I think it appeared in the papers at the time. Q. You and Mr. Ray and Mr. McCullongh divided up the proceeds between you. Was that after Mr. Robs and Mr. Cowan and Mr. Cameron got their shares ? A. • We divided the proceeds. There was a regular dividend declared, as in any oompany, and those entitled to it received it in proportion to their stock. Q. What prices did you pay for coal last year. Have you got a list of the pricea jou paid? A. I have not a list of the prices. I think you have the invoices here. Q. Have you the monthly statement of prices as received from the coal oom- panies? A. I haven't ihem with me, but I can tell you pretty nearly. The early price in Jane was $5.35. Q. That is the gross ton ? A. Yes. Q. That is how much net? A. $4.78. By the Chairman : Q. The June prices were $4.78 ('elivered in Ottawa? A. Yes. Q. And they advanced ? A. To as high as $6.65. Q. What was the next rise in price? A. I think it was $5.60 per gross ton, Q. What date was that? A. 1 think in July. Q. That is how much net ? A. $5. Q. Later on what was the next riee? A. J think the next rise was in August or September. 1 hat was either July or August I gave you last, Icannot tell exactly which. * Q. What was the net price? A. $6.22. Q. Then later on? A. $5.71. Q. What date wes that, November? A. That would be about November. OTTAWA COAL CARTAG* COMPANY. 251' Q. What 18 the present price of coal ? A. We are not baying coal at present, but 1 can give you the next advance. Q. What is the purchasing price now, net ? A. The next advance was 85.94 net, Q. In December ? A. Yes, in December. Q. After that ? A. That is the last advance. Q. Then it began to decline ? A. Not until this month. [Jhis month it went down 40 cents. Q. In March what was the price? A. The same price, $5.94. Q. What is the price now in April ? A, The April price is 40 cents less than that, per groes ton, $5.58 net. Q. Now we have been told here about discounts or rebates that have been allowed ? A. We get none, sir. Q. Were these invoices sent to yourself? A. Those are cash prices for coal that I purchased. Q. Who paid for these invoices? A. I paid them myself. Q. And you know that is the actual price you paid ? A. As near as I can speak» Q. These were the prices paid without any rebates or reductions ? A. Yes. Q. You paid the invoices yourself or the Coal Cartage Company ? A. They paid me for the coal, but I paid the companies, Q. Is there any arrangement made with the railroad companies in Ottawa about the Cfirrying of coal ? Is there any exclusive arrangement made by your cartage company ? A. No, sir. Q. Are all the railroads at perfect liberty to carry coal for anybody else at any prices they see fit ? A. They have, so far as I know, Q. You do not know of any arrangement by which you get certain privileges from the railroad companies? A. No. Q. By what road do you get your coal ? A. Some by the Canada Atlantic Eail- way, some by the Canadian Pacific Railway, and some by water. Q. What proportion ? How much do you get by wattr ? A. I get very little myself. • Q. Were these prices here the prices by water ? A. They were the established prices for Ottawa. Q. It makes no difference to you whether you get your coal by rail or by water. Yon get it delivered here ? A. They quote the prices delivered here. Q. It does not make much difference to you then whtther youget it by water or rail ? A. No ; only a mere matter of handling. Q. How much did you get by the Canada Atlantic ? A. Well, I think I got 2,000 tons, Q. How much did you bring in altogether ? A. That I could not tell positively, Q. About how much ? A. About six, seven or eight thousand tons. Q. And you got 2,000 tons by the Canada Atlantic, and the rest by boat and the Canadian Pacific Railway ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you know of a dealer in Carleton Place offering to sell coal in Ottawa, to send car loads of coal into Ottawa ? A. No. Q. There was no correspondence between your association and a dealer in Carleton Place ? A. None, that I know of. Q. 1 am informed that he offeied lo deliver coal here at a lower rate and that he could not get any coal for Ottawa ? A. That is news to me, what you speak of. By the Chairman : Q. Dia you agree with those coal companies that you buy from that they were not to supply anyone outside of the Cartage Company, any business arrangement with the Cartage Company ? A. ^o, Q. You have no such arrangement ? A. No. Q. Have you asked to have such an arrangement made ? A. I have mytelf in» timated to them. ^52 J. G. BUTTERWOBTH. Q. Id what way ? A. It is an open markets They get coal as they please in Ottawa. Q. What do you mean by intimating that yoa have asked them to confine their basinesa to Ottawa ? A. No, but to confine their sales to me, the same as I would get the agency of a stove they would give me to sell. Mr. Hartt here gave evidence as regarded the Delaware and Hudson Company Q. Bat he was their agent ? A. I asked the same thing, but they refused to give it. Q. It is not quite the same thing. Mr. Hartt's agency is bound to sell to every- body who comes along at those prices, or he would not be retained long as the agent* Your object in getting the agency was to prevent anyone else getting coal from that company ? A. Except through me, and that would be the same as Mr. Hartt. They would be handling it through me. Since there has been a cartage company we have done the same thing ; imply a matter of arrangement ? A. Simply a matter of arrange- ment. Q. You divided up all the contracts between you? A. Yes. Q. You took the public schools? A. It was given to me, T didn't take it. Q. Was that the Cartage Company ? A. No, it was amongst the dealers. Q. Were those who were not doing business with the Cartage Company, men like George Harris or Henry Easton, were they in when this arrangement was made7 A. I don't know whether they were or not. Q. Were you there ? A. I was there on one or two occasions. Q. You didn't arrange this all at one meeting ? A. No* Q. You had a number of meetings just as matters came up ? A. Yes. Q. It was agreed that the contracts should be divided round among you ? A. For instance, the dealers who had these contracts for years claimed that they had a right to fill these orders, that they should have them again. Q. How is it somebody else had the school contract, and it was handed over to you ? Who had it before ? A. I don't know. Q. They agreed to let you ha^e it at $6.05 ? A. I'es. Q. What amount did McCullough get for the Government contract ? A. I don't know. I don't know the quantity, or I don't know the price. Q. You were there ? A. It is a long time since. I don't remember the price. Q. You know that you got $t).05 for egg coal ? A. Yes. Q. For the school contract. That is the only one that you know of ? A. That is the only one that I have any personal knowledge of, or the only one that I re- member the price of — the only one I was interested in. Q. You remember quite well that it was arranged that one should have one con- tract, and another should have another ? A. Yes. Q, Well, ihen it was arranged, for instance, if you contract that you should put in a tender for $b.05 ? A. Yes. Q. Did they fix the price ? A. I don't remember that I fixed the price. It was consented to by all there. Q. They were patting in tenders were they ? A. Some were to, others said they would not tender. Q. In order to keep up appearance all right there were several tenders to be put in ? A. Yes. Q. And these tenders were all higher than yours ? A. In tendering of course they would tender higher than mine. Q. Do you know what the other tenders were ? A. I do not. The Chairman— I have the agreement made between Mr. Brown and the Cartage Company. I will read it so that the members of the Committee will see what the arrangement is. (Exhibit 40.) (Agreement read.) By the Chairman : Q. We were asking you whether you were satisfied with this arrangement be- tween the Cartage Company and yourself, and you said you were not very well satis- fied. Why ? A. Well, as I explained to you, the business is too much in their hands* Q. They have the control of every thing ? A. Yes. Q. They make that document to suit themselves ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) ; Q. What is there unfair in it. What is there that you object to as unlair ? A» Well, the details of the working of the company we are ignorant of to a great extent. Of course we consider that we get all that is due to us and all that kind of thing, but I think oateiders dealing with them are not thoroughly satisfied as a whole. Q. How many tons did you actually sell ? A. A little over 2,800 tons. Q. You received $1,826? A. Yes. I wish to explain to you that out of that •1,800 or my proportion of the division of the profits, I paid for rent of shed lots $230.64 up to the first of next May for the year. Taxes and water rates will exceed GOAL. 261 $50, office expenses, rents, &c.. $650, and other items not appertaining to the office but gener.nl business $129.79 at present. By the Chairman : Q. What rent do you pay? A. $450 a year. Q. Do you do any other business ? A. No. Q. Does anyone else do any other business in it ? A. No. Q. What is the necessity for such an expensive office ? A. We cannot get one for less. I only rent part of the office, and some one else has the rear portion of the office. Q, Do you sell soft coal besides this ? A. Yes. Q. Is soft coal in the arrangement ? A. It is included in that. Q. Soft coal is included in this statement here? A. I didn't buy any soft coal. Q. You sold more coal then than you had ? A. Yes. Advertising $150 and and interest is worth $300, which makes $1,510.43. By the Chairman : Q. I understand that you got all this whether you sold a ton of coal or not ? A. Yes. Q. Your profits are just the same you have told us ? A. I said my profits would be jusL the same whether I sell one ton or 10,000 tons, but at the same time a man going into business wants to get a footing for himself. Q. This was an investment for the future? It wasn't necessary for these profits, you are establishing a business for the future? A. It was to enable me to fet coal in here, as well as any person else, which is difficult for a man to do unless e has got a footing in the trade. Q. Did you think you would have to go to $1,200 or $1,500 expenses to enable you to get coal besides paying for the coal ? A. Yes. Q. What are the obstacles? What is there to prevent you from getting it if i you go there with your money and have a good business reputation ? A. They don't wish to encourage anybody on this side to go into the trade other than those who are in the trade at present. Q. Or is it that there is pressure put on from this side ? A. I don't know that. It may be. Q. We have evidence here to show that they are very anxious to sell and that they want to sell, that each company is anxious to sell aa much coal as possible on this side. Do you know of any arrangement or pressure being brought from this side to shut you out ? A. No ; I have no personal knowledge. I thought at the time that there was something of that kind, but I never discovered it. Q. Have you a strong suspicion ? A. Well, I had a suspicion at the time, Q. You have nothing to prove it ? A. No. Q. These three other companies you wrote to, you received no reply whatever ? A. No, sir. I saw the representativt^s of two of them since and they have offered to sell me coal. Q. Had J ou proper addresses. Did you write to the right man ? A. Yes ; I ^believe I did. Q. They offered to sell you coal since? A. Yes; since. Q. You were actually compelled to go to this large expense in order to establish your right to buy coal ? A. Establish my right to buy coal. Q. That was the principal object of all your expenditure this year ? A. Largely, to get established. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Since you joined the arrangement, they sold you coal? A. Yes. Q. Would they sell jou coal if you withdrew from it? A. I suppose they would now, because I am established in the trade. I can get boat coal, but I don't know whether 1 can get rail coal. Q. Do you know of any dealers not being able to get coal ? A. I have heard of it. 262 J. c BaowN. Q. Do you know ot'any eflForis being made to prevent them? A. Not from my own personal knowledge. My shed and scales cost over $2,000. It is beside the oanaL I allowed nothing in any of these expenses for depreciation. I allowed $300 interest on capital. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. Then, if I understand you right, your profits, as the account stands to-day, are about $300 ? A. Yes. Q. What would be a fair profit on the business of that sort — 2,800 tons of coal 7 A. A fair profit alter paying expenses ? Q. Tes, is that a fair average business ? Ai I don't know, I am new in the business, I can't answer that question very well. I think a man ought to have a little more than that out of it. Q. Do you know that your sales are nearly equal to the sale of other dealers 7 A. My sales are not equal to the sales of other dealers. Q. What proportion ? A. I suppose some of them sell twice as much as I sell. I don't know. I have no idea. I cannot tell the amount they sell, I have never seen the statements. Q. What in your opinion would be a fair profit on a ton of coal ? That is to an average dealer ? A. After paying all expenses ? Q. To a man who did a fair business ? A. Oh, a man would want about 50 cents a ton profit, I should think. Q. You don't know what you are to get yet ? A. Well, no ; I don't. By Mr. Guillet ; Q. Are there others in the same position besides you ? A. Mr. Thompson. Q. Is his share one-sixteenth too ? A. I don't know what their proportions are. By the Chairman : Q. You have given $300 as interest? A. Yes. Q. If you sold for cash your business is supposed to be cash? A. Yes; but it is not sold here for cash. Q. You don't get all caeh ? A. No. Q. If you sold for cash yoo would not require any capital at all ? A. Oh, yes. We would have to pay for our coal on the 15th of the month. Q. What would you require ? A. A certain amoant of capital all the time to keep UB going . Q. You say you pay for your coal on the 15th of next month ? A. Yes. Q. You pay for April deliveries on the 15th of May ? A. Yes. Q. If you sold in April for cash you would have the money on the 15th of May^ to pay for it? A. Yes. Q. So you would not need $1 for capital at all, because they take your invoices. You hand over your invoices and they pay on your invoices 7 A. No, sir ; I pay on the invoices. 1 pay on my own coal. Q. When do you pay for it ? A. The fifth is settlement day, and they always pay on the ienth. Q. You get the money from them before you pay for it ? A. No, sir; I never did that, I don't think. Settlement day is supposed to be the 5th, but sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. I pay for my coal whether I have settled with them or not. Q. The arrangement ie that you get settled on the 5th and you pay for your Qoal on the 10 lb, was that the contract? Theoretically, at any rate, you get the money from them before you pay it over to the coal companies in the States ? A. I eonld not do it ; I don't think I ever did that. By Mr. Wood ( Westm^eland) : Q. The expenses of the coal business then, as I understand you, are such that bot 50 cents would be clear? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the expenses on an average, if the figures you have given hero are oorrect, would be about 50 cents more ? A. Of handling ? Q. No ; the list of expenses ? A. Yes ; apart from the delivery of it. Of course that would vary some, but on an average business for a year it is about 60 cents. COAL. 2G3> By the Chairman : Q. Would you get along with less ? A. No; I would require moie help and more capital Q. Whom have you in your office now ? A. I have my partner. Q. le there work for two ? A. Yes; one has lo look after the collection. We have to sell largely on credit. We have to have a set of boo'ss to be kept and credits to be collected. Q. Surely that business you had there, when the Cartage Company takes the coal and delivers it, would not provide work lor two men ? A. Yes, pretty much all the time. The collections take up a large portion of a man's time. Q. Pay day comes in only once a month? A. That is amongst a certain por- tion of the community only. By Mr. Ghdllet : Q. Did you write to the agent in Montreal ? A. No, sir; there is no use trying^ to buy from them, I understand. Q. vVho did you understand that from? A. From a gentleman in Montreal whom I saw there. Q. Who was he ? A. A Mr. Evans. Q. Who is he? A. In the coal trade there. Q. Why ? A. Because they cannot sell here. HousB OP Commons, Ottawa, 25th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morniijg; Mr. Wallace in the chair. Percy B. Todd, General Freight and Passenger Agent of the Canada Atlantic Bailway, hworn. By the Chairman : Q. Your company has hauled a good deal of coal to Ottawa? A. In the last year we hauled 4,776 tons. Q, And the year before that? A. We did not haul any at all . That is the first year that we hauled any coal. Q. That is the first year you hauled any coal ? A. Yes ; since the opening of the road. Q. When was the road opened ? A. I will not be positive, because I have only been connected with it a short time. It has been opened between Ottawa and Coteau for five years, and between Ottawa and Rouse's Point for two and a half years. Q. What connection have you with Rouse's Point? A. We have our own road. Q. Across the St. Lawrence ? A. We get there by ferry. Q. And through the United States? A. It is in Canadian territory. We connect at Lacolle with the Grand Trunk Railway, and at Rouse's Point we only go a mile and a half into the State of New York. Q. With what railways do you connect there? A. The Central Yermont Rail- way, the Delaware and Hudson, and the Ogdensburg and Lake Champlain. Q. And then you have facilities for carrying coal. Are any of these railways connected with the coal mines? A. Yes ; the only one is the Delaware and Hudson, which owns one of the largest coal mines in the United States. Q. And yon tried to make arrangements with them, to connect with them to carry coal to Ottawa? A. I believe my predecessor did. I have only been con- nected with the road for a year and a-half, but I understand that my predecessor made several efforts to get coal in here. He was told by the Ottawa coal dealers that the time had not yet come but would undoubtedly come when we would bring coal into Ottawa. I did not think it was a very clear answer. We did not have a ton of coal up to last year. Q. Then had you made no arrangements with them before that — with any com- panies or with any parties in Ottawa ? A. Not up to last year. My predecessor "264 PEROT R. TODD. had gone to all these coal merchants here with a view to obtaining a share of the <5oal traffic, bat he was always put off, although they could never give a definite reason, but he did not get coal, and that was the long and the short of it. Q. Well, tnen, how did yoa suoceed? A. Well, about this time last year our general manager and myself decided that we were entitled ti a share ot the Ottawa coal traffic, and I went to work to see what we could do to obtain it. I talked to my predecessor first, and he could not see any reason why, except that we could not get the coal. He had been promised but never got it. I went to them, more especially to Mr. Butterworth, who is president of this association. I told him that I did not know why we should not get a share of the Ottawa coal traffic, and I asked him if there was any reason why we should not. His feelings were most cordial towards us, but I could not get any promise of any coal. That wss what I expected ; in fact I went there as a matter of form and I decided that there was only one way for us to get any coal into Ottawa, and that was to bring in a new dealer and if they made it unpleasant for him we would have to stand by him. There seems to have been an impression that the Canada Atlantic Sailway itself purchased coal for sale, but that is not correct. We do not care to go into any traffic of that kind, mixed up with railroad matters, if we can avoid it. What we did do was to look around for another man that we could put in here, and that we thought would stay through the fight if it was necessary, and we decided to etay with him. We arranged with the Kathbun Company of JDeseronto to open an agency here. They are in the coal business very extensively throughout Canada. I think it was just about this time last year that we made our arrangements to have them go into the retail coal business in Ottawa. The Ottawa Coal Association asked us to meet them, which we did with a view of ascertaining what our intentions were, and we told them that as far as the Canada Atlantic Railway was concerned our intention was to bring a share of the coal into Ottawa, whose coal or the prices we had nothing to do with. We were only carriers and the only arrangement we had with the fiathbun Company was on the same terms as we would give to them or to the public, and they made a proposition to us and the Rath bun Company. We were both present at this meeting. Q. Who was present ? A. Mr. Butterworth, Mr. Ray, Mr. Carter, representing the Eathbun Company, myself, Mr. Kellogg, or Utioa, of the Delaware and Hudson tons of coal that came into Ottawa by that way, not over 8,000 tons came all rail from the mines. I know that a very large quantity — and we will say 60 per cei^t., roughly speaking — came by water from Oswego or Fairhaven to Prescott. That coal came in by cars here and these men are t^elling their coal, making no diffirence at all in the coal that came by water, via Preecott, and the coal that came all rail from the mines. By the Chairman : Q. They might not know it? A. I do not see how they could possibly help know- ing if a man orders all rail coal from the mines and it comes by water to Prescott. Q. They ordered it from a certain company and they got it delivered in Ottawa at a certain price. Ottawa is different from other places. A. They knew well enough that ours did not come all rail. Q . Bid you test the quality of your coal as compared with theirs ? A.I used it in my own house and found it fully as good, my people say better. We used iden- tically the same coal, taken from the barges, in our passenger offices, and found it fully equal this year. The point that I want to get at is thin : These people are now crying down to consumers (the direct consumers, the householders) the coal coming over the Canada Atlantic on the ground that it is not all rail coal, while the coal that they are selling is only 40 or 50 per cent, of ail rail coal. That is the point. I have told them this, that in regard to this year's business that as far as we can con- trol the salesmen selling coal to agents to bring it over our road, that if they find that when they go round to take orders our coal is being decried on the ground that it is not all rail coal, we will do this: For instance, if Mr. Butterworth makes the statement that coa! coming over the Canada Atlantic is not as good to the consumer as theirs because theirs comes all rail, I have arranged with people who handle coal over our road to sell their coal at just as much less as Mr. Butterworth says it is worth ; that is to say, if he says that Canada Atlantic coal is inferior by 50 cents per ton from having come by water, to sell it at 50 cents a ton less than Mr. Butterworth's price ; if he says it is worth $1 a ton less we will sell it at $1 less. The railway company is to stand by them as we are working to establish ourselves as a coal route into Ottawa. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Does not the screening of coal obviate the difference in price? A. Yes; I think it more than overcomes it, for this reason : the coal is screened at the mines and put on the cars. There is a good deal of shaking in a journey of 250 or BOO miles, much more than by boat. If our coal is screened after it comes out of the boat, it is only subject to the shaking of 135 miles as against 250 to iiOO. It seems to me, therefore, that coal that comes in by boat will be in a better condition than theirs, or at any rate equally good. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. You are handling the Pennsylvania Company's coal this year? A. We did so last year, and it is our intention to do so this year. They also send some coal here by water ; that is, by the Kichelieu Eiver and up that way. Q. Your object is to give them better facilities than to send it round ? A. Yes ; and it is more convenient to receive their coal by rail as the boats have to be discharged immediately. Q. They have the disadvantage of twic-e handling ? A. Yes; bat that is taken care of in the selling. Q. They make concessions on the other side ? A. Our arrangement in regard to prices with the Pennsylvania Company is just exactly the same as last year. That is, when the circulars are issued by that company for the month — which are open — that the Pennsylvania Company will sell coal to any of our dealers at the same price as stated in the circulars of the other companies and allow us 68 cents a ton for freight. That is the only arrangement we have with them. By Mr. Wood (^Westmoreland) : Q. What is the arrangement again? A, The only arrangement we have with the Pennsylvania Company is, with regard to the prices, that they will furnish coal. i70 PERCY R. TODD. to any dealers in Ottawa, who wish their coal over the Canada Atlantic. They will farnish what coal they want at the same prices as are named in the circulars of the other companies f ments reported in the other papers. GOAL. 275 Q. There was a statement that was damagiog to you and if you didn't read it perhaps some of your friends did. The statement is made that you had sold coal to Messrs. Keys & Hallet on the 7th December for $5.50 per ton. Is that true ? A. I have no record of it here. Q. That is not an answer to the qaestion. Answer that question : Did you sell, on the 7th December or the month of December, coal to Keys & fiallet for $5.50 per ton ? A. I have no knowledge of any such sale. Q. Did you bring your books and records as your summons orders you to do? A. No, sir; all I have brought is here. I suppose you would want a special train to bring up all oar books and records. Q. They were referring to these transactions ? A. I simply mentioned that in connection with Afr. Bell's statement. Q. You brought the matter up. Surely you mis:ht have expected to have brought records in connection with that matter as it was referred to by yoarself . A. I have. Q. Did you look over the sales to Messrs. Keys & Hallet after receiving the summons ? A. No. Q. You didn't look over them ? A. No. Q. Then you didn't obey the summons. You didn't either look over the papers or bring them here for us to look over them ? A. I have spent about all the time on it that I can spare. Q. Wbat are the records you have brought here ? We don't want to read them. What records have you brought down ? A. 1 have brought papers here with refer- ence to Q. 1 want you to say whether that statement that is made there whether Keys & Hallet have bought coal from you at 85.50 per ton is correct ? A. I have no knowledge of any sales to Kejs & Hallet excepting those mentioned that I have already given. Q. What did ycu ask ;^ur bookkeeper to do ? A. To give me the cars and prices shipped to Keys & Hallet. Q. All of them? A. Yes. Q. Did you ask him to give you all the sales ? A, I told him to put on the back of that letter the cars shipped to Keys & Hallet and the prices. Q. Didn't Keys & Hallet buy more than that or buy cars from yon this year ? A. I don't know that they did. Q. I understood that they have bought more than 20 cars ? A. It might be possible that they did. Q. And there is only a record of five or did they buy more than five cars from yon ? A.I could not say. Q. You don't know the amount during last year ? A. I don't know. Q. You don't know? A. I could not say. Q. You don't know how many cars tbey bought from you ? A. No. Q. You have no knowledge of it ? A. I haven't looked at their account special- ly. That memorandum was put on the back at the time of the election, immediate- ly after the letter was received, and it has reference to the cars shipped between these dates, the car that was shipped to you the time of the election. Q. This is the date of the cars shipped, but these aie not all the cars shipped to them. Did you ask your bookkeeper to make out a list of all the transactions with Keys & Hallet ? A. No ; 1 cannot remember it quite clearly just what I told him . Q. When did you get this ? A. I think that was put on at the time of the elec- tion. Q. This was put on that letter at the time of the election ? A. I think so. Q. Since you got your summons ? A. No. I handed the letter to the shipping clerk and told him to put on the cars shipped to Keys & Hallei. I may have said that the time referred to was when that car was shipped . Q. Keys & Hallet sold us a car at $5. That is all the money they asked for, «nd they said they cleared only 15 cents per ton, which would make the purchase 3— 18i 2*76 SLIAS BOOKRS. from you at $i.85, but still you swear they paid you $5 for that? A. These are the prices paid by Keys & Hallet for these cars. Q. And you have no knowledge about the cars that were sold to Keys & Hallot during the month of December after that? A. No; I do not know that there were any shipped to them during the month of December. I think they had some in January. Q. Well, suppose that we prove that there were cars sold, and sold at $5.50, what would you eay to that ? A. I suppose it might be possible. Q. It might be possible ? A. It might be possible. Q. You came down here after that ? A. There might be some special reason. We sometimes have customers to whom we allow special reduction on account of some special reason. Q. You would not be surprised to hear then that they had bought coal from you at $5.50 during the same month of December that they quoted certain cars having been sold at $6 ? A. In the latter part of December the difficulty which had existed during the previous three months was to some extent removed in regard to the rail shipments. During the months of September, October and November and the early part of December, some of the United States' roads were not allowing their cars to come to Toronto at all, and there was very little coal coming to Toronto by rail during these mouths. In December sometime, I don't remember the date, those restrictions were removed and coal began to come in again, and consequently the prices would be easier. Q. But Mr. Bell, you say, purchased some from you in that same month of De- cember, and you charged him 86 ? A, $6 per ton. At the same prices we were charging other dealers at that time. Q. You were loading on cars for Keys & Hallet ? A. I could not say whether it was loaded on the cars or through cars. Q. You didn't load it on the cars in your yard, of course William Bell took it from your yard ? A. I think the cars to Keys & H^let were through cars. Of course we always ship through cars if we can obtain them, though if we could not we always took care of our customers. Q. What is the capacity of the through cars ? A. They would be from 12 to 25 tons. Q. Varying very much ? A, Yes. Q. If it were a car marked C.P.R. on it, that would be loaded at Toronto, would it ? A. I think they have some 15-ton cars. Q. KtheC.P.K. car had the name C.P.K., showing that it belonged to the C.P.R, what would that mean ? A. It would probably mean that they were loaded at Toronto. It might possibly be a through car, but very likely it would be loaded at Toronto. Q. How would it be a through car, how could it be a through car, if it were C.P.fi. ? Do C.P.R. cars go down there empty and load up there sometimes ? A. Some of their cars go to the mines. I thick tbey supply a number of cars that run into the Ohio eoal district. Q. If it had the C.P.R. name on it, it would probably be loaded at 3'our place in Toronto ? A. It is more than likely it would. Q. Do you know the number of tons that were on that car No. 4518? A. Not unless it is given there (witness looked at paper) ; no. Q. Yon don't know the number of tons? You have no means of identifying itf Do you say there were no cars sold to Keys & Hallet before Aug. 25th. ? A.I don't eay that. There may have been. Q. You don't know of any transaction. You didn't hunt it up after you got the flammons ? A. No ; I didn't look. Q. You didn't look for any facts at allf A. No ; I had the facts all ready, so far as my statement was concerned. Q. I think we are entitled to have the full particulars. Mr. Rogers came down the last time and was heard and gave it as a reason and a plaasable reason, too, that hfr COAL. 2*1*1 hadn't an opportanity of getting his papers because he was bammoaed while he was in Ottawa on other business. Now, he has had a fair notice and received a summons to bring down books and papers, and we find that his memory is as defective a^ it was and he has not the papers by which we can prove these things or have them dis- proved. I don't think that is very satisfactory to the Committee myself. It is not satisfactory to me I know ? A. What would you like to know ? Q. I would like to know the transaction with Keys & Hallet which you have brought up in your letter and you should be able to give us information about this ? A, Keys & Hailet received their coal at the same price we were charging other dealers unless in some special case there was special reason why their prices should vary and that price would be from $5 to %6, according to the time they got it and the condition of the markets. Q. Or less than $b. Did they buy any coal for lets ? A. The egg coal, all that they got early in the eeason was $4.75. Q. Was the car that cost them $4.75 that which they sold to us? A. I think the car you got, from the date here, would be, without a doubt, No. 4518 car. Q. There are a number of contracts let in Toronto. Do you know of anything in 188t» of the Hospital contract being let ? A. I know that the Hospital bought their coal in 1886 and 1887. Q. Who got it in 1886 ? A. Bailey & Co. Q. For how much a ton ? A. 25 cents under the general price. Q. What were the prices Mr. Bailey got ? A, I think they were 25 cents under the general prices. Q. These were the prices, were they not (pointing to the minutes) ? Aa I do not know anything about the minutes. Q. You were a member of the association ? A. Yes. Q. That contract was auctioned off ? A. It was handled in the way these con- tracts were handled. Q. Answer my question : Was it sold by auction among the members ? A. Ton can call it that, if you like. Q. What do you call it ? A. I call it pooling. Q. We will use that term then. This contract was pooled? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Bailey was the pooler or the pooled, which ? A. He was the party who was to fill the contract. Q. Did he get the pool, or was he to pay out the pool ? A. He was the party "who paid into the pool the amount that was paid out. Q. How much ? A.I canoot say. Q. Look at your minutes? A. I do not know anything about the minutes. Q. These are certified copies ? A. The minutes here say $900. I would like to explain to the Committee about this contract. Q. If you will answer my question shortly, it will give the other gentlemen who have questions to ask an opportunity, and we will save time. If you wish to ex- plain I insist that you will give a straight answer? A. There are special reasons why that should be explained. Q. There was another contract, the Parkdale Waterworks ; do you know any- thing about that? A. I do not know anything special about that. Q. Eefreeh yourself by looking at the minutes ? A. The minutes record the transaction that was supported to have occurred on the 2lBt of June. This contract ■was awarded to the Conger Coal Company, for $380. Q. And the prices ? A. $5.70 and $n.9j. Q. What was the $5.70 for ? A, Egg. Q. There were some other contracts lee on the 29th of June. Will you tell us what contracts were let then ? A . Knox College and the House of Industry. Q. The House of Industry contract was awarded to whom ? A. The Conger Coal Company. Q. For how much ? A. $296. I am simply reading these minutes. 278 KLIAS BOQEBS. Q. These are certified copies of your minoteB ? A. Well, I cannot swear from my own knowledge. Q. You have eworn to things you got letters for. These are certified reports of yonr proceedings. How many tons were supplied to the House of Industry ? A, fi45 ions apparently. Q. Knox College, to whom was that awarded? A, C. J. Smith. Q. For how much? A. $195. Q. How many tons in that ? A. 217 tons of coal, and 21 cords of wood. Q. For which they gave how much ? A. $195. Q. Are there any other contracts that you know of ? A. (Reading from the minutes) " Resolved that the prices of the Government contract be 25 cents less per ton than the retail prices of anthracite coal," « Q. To whom was it awarded ? A. Elias Rogers & Co. Q, For how much ? A. $1,500. Q. Is that correct ? A. 1 believe it is. Q. What quantity was there ? Was this the Local Government or the Dominion ? A. I cannot say. I think it is the Local Government. Q. What institutions did you supply them to? A. I think they went to tho Government Buildings, the Government House, and the Normal School. There are quite a number of institutions. Q. That would be the Local Government then ? A. Yes. Q. How many tons did you supply for them? A. I think about 2,500 or 3,000 tons. Q. Could you give us a little more definite information than that ? How many tons were there that you supplied ? A. That is my recollection. Q. Do the minutes give any record of it ? A. I do cot think that they do. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. For that contract you paid how much? A. $1,500. Before leaving this I wish to explain in regard to all this. By the Chairman : Q. How did you get that contract? What was tho modus operandi? A. We offered to pay more into the pool, which has to be divided. Q. Did you put it up at auction, or was it by sealed tenders? A. It is open. Each one offers so much. Q. Who a!>krt for the oflFers? A. The secretary. Q. He puts it up and says: "Now; how much ?" A. Bach one is asked what they are willing to put into the pool for the privilege of filling this contract. It was understood, of course, that they were to have their share back. By Mr. Gvillet : Q. Do they make more than one offer ? A. Yes ; as many as they like. They can go on all day. By the Chairman ; Q. Yours was the highest offer made ? A. Yes, Q. How did it lead up to $1,500? A. If you will allow me to explain, I will do 80 in regard to all these. The hospital contract and this contract, and one or two others, there was a good deal of feeling about. In regard to ihe hospital contract, we can fill it cheaper than any one else. We have better facilities and are nearer. We had supplied the coal before, and we wanted to supply it again, as we knew wo oonld do it cheaper than any one else. Q. How ? A. We had better facilities and less cartage. Q. Is there no coal company as near to the hospital as yours ? A. No ; no large oompany. Q How much nearer is yours ? A. Nearly half a mile. Perhaps not so far,, but more than a quarter of a mile. Bailey & Co., although I did not know it at the lime we were bidding, were determined to have the contract, as during the year they hod supplied it, a year or two ago. COAL, 279 Q. Which contract are you referriDg to ? A. The hospital. There had been somethiog wrorg, and the hospital people were disfiatibfied, and would not have givea Bailey another contract unless there was considerable difference in the price. For that reason, Bailey & Co. were determined to have it, no matter what the price was; but, knowing our posilioo, that we were better able to fill it, we ran the price up. They, in retaliation, ran the price up in their own defence. The price was fixed for all these itstitntions on the baf)is of the cost of coal, the freight and handling, and the item of general expenses included, such as oflSce and yard expenses, and a margin of profit. In no case to my knowledge was there a price fixed lor one of these institutions where there was a clear margin of profit of over 25 cents a ton. Q. You fixed the prices for the Government contract at how much ? A. Twenty- five cents less than retail prices. That would be $5.50 and $5.75. Q. Were you satisfied with that ? A. It was a fiair price. Q. You were quite satisfied with that? A. I was satisfied to^U the contract at that price, Q. Look and see what motion you made afterwards. Bead it out, please. This was on the 16th July. Did you make a motion that the prices be raised higher for that contract? A. I do not think so. Possibly, I might have moved for tha advanced price for delivery after a certain date, but not for immediate delivery. Q. You paid $1,500 for the contract. For how many tons? A. I think 2,500 or 3,000 tons. It must be borne in mind Q. Wait a moment. That would be 60 cents a ton lhat you paid into the px)!. Then, it you paid 60 cetts to your brother dealers for the privilege of getting that contract, yen must have made that 60 cents out of the contract ? A. I explained when I was here before Q. Your untswers are not explanations. We have those. Now answer the question ; For the 2,500 tons contract you paid a bonus out to the others — or into the pool, rather— of 60 cents a ton? A. Yes. Q. Tou must have made that on the price of the coal ? A. No. Q No ? You must have thought thut there was a margin to pay that out, or you would not have paid it. How do you make out that you only charged them 25 cents more profit ? A. There is no doubt that in some of these cases we did not get value for our money. Q. That does not touch the point. You say you paid 60 cents a ton to get that contract ; not to the Government, but to other individnals. You got your share back? A. Yes; and in this case it would be 20 cents per ton. Q. But in the case of other smaller dealers it would be only 5 cents? A. Yes; be could not compete. Q. You paid 60 cents a ton to get that contract; we will satisfy ourselves about the profit. You made 25 cents profit after paying this 60 cents? A, No; I know of no contract put up in this way in which there was a clear margin of 25 cts. over all expenses. Q. You have gone over all that before? A. I want that distinctly understood. If you will give me a chance, I will explain all that. Q. You are good at ^plaining theoriep, bat not at answering direct questions. You got this Government contract, and paid $1,500 for it. Was there any other contract that you know of in that year? But before we go on, was there any ar- rangement made how other tenderers were to do ? You were to put that into the Ontario Government as the lowest tender ; what were the others to do? A. It wa» understood that they would not tender as low, but at higher rates. Q. Was there anything more than an understanding ? A. That was the agree- ment. Q. It was an agreement. It was more than an understanding. Bead that resolution? " Besolved, that Elias Bogers & CJo., being the successful bidders, all others tender for 25 cents a ton higher on coal, and 25 cents per cord on wood." That appears to be the resolution passed. 280 ELIAS BOQERS. Q All the others were to tender 25 cents higher on the coal and 25 cents higher on wood, and it was done so as to make the Ontario Government believe that the tenders were bona fide ? A. No, sir; I do not think there was any understanding of that kind. Q. Why did they ask for tenders— why did they go to the expense of asking for tenders? A. I suppose it is their own business. Q. Do you tbink they knew or that anybody knew that you gave $1,500 for getting that contract? A. I do not think they did, but they knew that the price was fixed, Q. Was there anything specially done about secrecy being observed ? A. There was nothing special about that. I was surprised when I saw in evidence that there was to be something secret. It was passed at no meeting when I was present. Q. Would jou please turn to page eleven of the minutes ? A. I want to make an explanation. 9 Q You have made a statement in regard to these contracts ? A. I made part of it. The Govern me nt contract, I think the price then was $5.50 for egg and grate. The price is not given here. It says 25 cents under the retail price and I believe that was the retail price at that time. Q But with regard to the distribution of the money there on page eleven. How was the money to be distribated ? A. The money was to be distribated among the importers on the basis of the custom house returns. Q Did the retttil dealers not get any of this at all ? A. One-sixth of this went to the exchange, and the balance was divided up amongst the importeis. Q. One-sixth went to the exchange. What was done with the money that went to the exchange ? A. It went towards paying expenses. The insurance of the members was paid sometimes as long as the money lasted. Q. And what else? A. The expenses of the association. Q. And what else ? A. I do not know of anything more. Q. Was there any t-um for calls of the Board of Trade besides the insurance calls? A. Not that 1 know of. Q. Do JOU not know of any calls? Was there not calls for membership fee ? A. No, not that I know of. That is paid by the individual. Q. There are references here to the calls of members being paid up by the coal exchange. Have you any such arrangement ? By Mr. Quillet : Q. You say you took the amount of each member's business from the Custom house returns ? A. Yes. Q. Why not take it from their own invoices? A, Well, the Custom house returns are impartial and correct returns, and satisfactory to all parties. Q. You get invoices? A. Yes. Q. Can you state whether there has been any rebate or not in any case fbr the last two years ? A. No ; as a rule they have been straight prices. Q There are rebates in some cases ? A. Yes. I said before that the prices fixed by the Western Anthracite Committee are not always strictly adhered to, and I stated hero that sometimes advances were made on thos| prices as well as reduc- tions allowed. That was the case in September, October and November of last year. There was as high as $1 a ton premium paid for coal going to Chicago and the west. Q. Were rebates made last year? A. There is no such a thing as any general rule with regard to rebates. It is a matter of private arrangement. Q. Still you have made private arrangements? A. No ; the only arrangement we make is at the fixed price. Some dealer might put it as so much off association prices or he might put it at a specific sum. Q. Well, the rebate would be in proportion to the quantity I sappoee. A. That depends on circumstances. It does not follow at all. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do ibey sell 10,0(iO tons at the same rate as 2,500 tons ? A. Sometimes they sell it at lebs price. COAL. 281 By Mr. Guillet : Q. 10,000 tons would be less for what reason? A. Sometimes a jobber woald not undertake an order for 2,500 tons when he would take it for 10,000 tons. Q. Did you ever get a rebate of 50 cents a ton ? A. I do not know what yoa mean by a rebate. Q. A reduction from the quotation by circular ? A. I do not remember. It is ■quite possible that there may have been sometime in the past. Q. Does your invoice give the straight price? A. As a rule there would be no rebate, but in some cases where there was eomeihiog wrong with the coal, excessi^o screening or so, there might bo an allowance made. By the Chairman : Q. An allowance, a trade discount ? A. No, there is no discoant. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Although the invoice might bhow the circular price, would there not be a rebate granted sometime by private arrangement that would not appear on tha invoice? A. Well, I do not know what is the understanding about it. It is possible that it might be. Q. In your cage ? A. No ; I do not think so. I think as a rule the parties who «hip send you your invoices at the straight price. Q. And you do not get any rebate ? A. Not unless there is some special reason. By the Chairman : Q. Give your own experience ? A. That is what I am saying. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You have stated that that is sometimes done, but in some cases would not the quantity being ordered have something to do with it ? A. This is a matter of v special arrangement ? By the Chairman : Q. Give us your special arrangement? A. There would be no arrangement a& to special discount. If the price was fixed it would be a straight price. By Mr. Guillet : Q. But it some such arrangement was made by which if it was shown that yon l)Ought a large amount at the end ot the season, say 100,000 tons ? A. I do not think soi. Q. Did you get two invoices ? A. Yes ; in most cases. Q. Do you deposit it in the Custom house in Toronto? A. Not in most cases. I could not just say, but I do not think we do in anthracite coal. We do in bituminous coal. By the Chairman : Q. But how do the Custom house have a record of that, to show what the duty was say in 1886 ? A. Well, it does not make any difference to them as to the price of the coal, as it is a specific doty. Jt has been the custom in Toronto to put ib& «oal at one price without reterence to invoices or anything else. Q. Bat you do rot put your invoices in? A. I do not think so. By Mr, Guillet : Q. You said invoices were put in ? A. Yes ; the invoices of bituminous coal, but I do not think the invoices of anthracite coal are put in. There is a statement pat into the Custom house. By the Chairman ; Q. Is that statement not sworn to ? A. Yes ; I think it is. Q. Have you sworn to the same price all the year round ? A. I was surprieedl some time ago — ■- Q. Give us your own experience ? A. I was surprised some time ago to find that the prices had been reported to the Customs as one throughout the year, and when I enquired about it the Custom house people said it did not make any differ- ■ence as it was a specific duty. Q. You would be surprised to learn that the prices have not been given through- out the year, would you not ? A. I think, so far as ours is concerned and soma of the other dealers, 1 think that the Castom house clerks put the prices in at (na 283 SLIAS BOGEBS. figure. That is as regaids last year. I think it was some six or nine months ago that I By Mr. Guillet : Q. WLat object would he have in not taking these invoices ? The law requires tbe invoices to bo filed ? A. It has not been so in our case that I know of with anthracite coal. Q. What object would there be in duplicate invoices ? A. It would be an immense amount of work and ueelees paper for the Coslom people to handle. Q. But the anthracite coal that is sent in, I mean the screenings ? A. The eoreening is ad valorem duty and of course it is necessary to have the price in that CMO but in bituminous coal it is a specific duly for the lump size. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Then you really do not know about that part of the business? A. It is simply a matter of detail that I do not go into personally. Q. It is a matter which the clerks attend to ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Would you be surprised to learn that the Custom house Collector", in Toronto makes the statement that you get no invoices ? A. I do not think that is so. That statement was never made by us. Q. Would you be surprised to learn that they are not filed ? A. I do not think they are. Q. You stated in the first instance that they were? A. I spoke from memory. Q. Tte Collector of Customs in Toronto writes on the part of the Castoms to say that he has no ooal invoices and that he has been informed that the importers stated jUiat they get no invoices. At other ports, Montreal, Kingston, Hamilton and other places the importers filed their invoices, but I suppose the declaration is made that liiey get no invoiceu ? A. There is no such declaration asked. Q. Do you know that the object was to keep from the public the knowledge of the prices at which you imported? A. I do not know I am sure. I do not think yne would like everybody to know at what prices we purchase coal. By the Chairman : Q. Do you pay the duty on the srross or net ton ? A. On the net ton . Q. The Custom house report in Toronto shows that the sworn price of anthra- cite coal for 1886 was $1.85. That is at the American port, the average for the whole season for the lour quarters of the year, March. June, September and Decem- ber. The aveiage price for IS&T was $4 61, making 24 cents less that year than it waa the year before. Then there was 50 cents saved in duty, not all the year. ^That ought to make a difference in the price of coal of 74 cents? A. I can give jou the fucts with regard to that. So far as the statement is concerned 1 do not think there is anything reliable at all. Q. You did not tell us that they had been swearing falsely all the year? A. I did Dot swear to it. By Mr. Guillet : Q. 1 presume your object was to keep the public from knowing the price yoa pud tor t tie ooal. It is likely that you would give them lower rates? A. 'Ihey might start at the opening of the season and remain the same during the rest of the year. Q But they vary in different quarters ? A. I do not know. Q. I think we might assume that these statements are all higher not lower? A. I find fi jm investigation that the Custom house returns are not oorroot at all. By the i ha>rman : Q. Since then I suppose you do swear correctly ? A. I told jny Custom house ear8 to be the case. Q. '* A sub committee consisting of Messrs Rogers, Eailey, Orane and the chairman, to proceed to Buffalo to see the committee with a view to stopping th« supplies of non- members." Did you consider McConneil a non-member at that time? A. I cannot say whether he was in default at that time or not. Q. We are trying to get at the important fact whether you tried to stop the supplies from non-members. A. I have given a letter with a statutory declaration on the matter from the man who supplied him, and stated in my form er examina tion Q. No ; answer the question with reference to this resolution. You have read this resolution, and you were present at the meeting. Yon were appointed to go to BuflFalo, and confer with the members of this committee to stop supplies. You wera present at the meeting ? A. That instruction was never carried out. Q. You were present at the meeting ? A. I do not know. It was not my motion. I tuppoee if the minutes say so that is correct. Q. Yon went to New York and Buffalo on association business although joxt vrere not the president ? A. No. Q. You were not the treasurer ? A. No. Q. You were not the secretary ? A. No. Q. Then you could not go on official business unless appointed on a special committee. Now, what was the special business ? Turn up the minutes and shoir some other business. A. I do not know anything about the minutes. It is quite possible that I might go to Buffalo or t > New York at the request of a number of dealers or on a resolution, and the association aftfrrward pass a resolution to pay my expenses, which I think was the case. Q. Did the New York man, or Buffalo man, Gilford Smith, send word back that he did not want to receive the deputation ? A. I cannot say now. Q. There is another resolutioa that the secretary telegraphed to Mr. T. Gilford Smith, advi(^ing him that a deputation from the association has proceeded to Buffalo, &c. ? A. I do not think there was any word sent from them that they would not receive the deputation. I think the deputation did not feel like going, Q. Did any of them go ? A. I do not think that instruction was ever carried out. Q. I see two put in bills, one for $36.50, and another for $38.50 ? A. That was to New York. Q. It is for New York and Buffalo, two trips ? A. No; one trip to New York, and one to Buffalo. Q. Mr. Bogers for two trips, and the other gentleman for one trip. Do yoa know that you did not go to the United States to see about this matter ? A. I think at the meeting I attended in New York I represented to the Westera Anthracite Joint Committee the facta of the McConneil matter. Q. You know that? A. I am quite certain I did. Q. Why did you go any further than Buffalo on that motion ? A. On ^at motion ? Q. About this McConneil matter ? A. I do not know that I went on the McCon- neil matter at all. I think there were other matters of interest to the association. Q. But you were not appointed on other matters, and you sent in your bill for $38.50 ? A. That was on a resolution of the association that I should be paid. Q. Not for going on your own private business ? A. It was their propoeiti(Hi and it was carried out. Q. You went there and represented the case ? A. There was nothing done as far as the resolution to go to Buffalo was concerned. 288 KLIA8 ROQKBS. Q. Then yoa went to New York instead? A. There was a meeting of the Western Anthracite Joint AssociatioQ sometime after that, and I was present. I "went down partly on my own account, and partly on association business. Q. You took pay for that from the association ? A. That was through a resolution. Q. You did their work? A. Yes. I presume they were satisfied to pay it. The committee of the Western Anthracite Joint Association came here in the spring of 1886, and forced ue to come into this association, and told us if we did not oom& in, we could not have coal ; and when others did not come in, or disputed its resolu- tions, and yet were supplied with coal, we were aggrieved. We did not feel like being bound to the association, after having been forced to join it. Q You had an association before that ? A. There has always been, as long as I can remember, meetings of the dealers, but I do not know that there was an asso «iation before this. Q. 1 have here reference to the constitution and by-laws of the Coal Exchange of "Toronto, 1885? A. 1 think this was copied from an American affair, ana there were things of this kind being agreed to continually. Q. Then this McConnell matter ? A. I stated at this meeting in New York the JactB of this matter, and that this committee appointed by the association had com- pelled us to go into an association. I also stated that McConnell By the Chairman : Q. I must insibt when I ask a question in getting a straightforward answer. Mr. Rogers generally wants an explanation. 1 have no objection to Mr. Eogers making the fullest explanation but when I ask a question I think it is unfair to let him gooff into a long explanation withcut any particular reference to the case ? A. You can- not get at the facts. Q. I want to ask you if you presented a case of your association before the asso- ciation in New York ? A. Yes. 1 do not know that 1 presented it for the association, but I stated the facts. Q. Did they take any action in the matter? A. I do not think they did as aik association. I do not think they passed any resolution or anything of that kind. Q. Was their action satisfactory to you, the course they took or did not take or "whatever might be done? A. I do not know that it was. Q. Do you mean that you do not think it was ? A.I did not ask them to take any special action. I simply stated the facts and we felt that we had not been pi-o- perly treated. We were forced into an organization and our hands were tied and iinother person was allowed to got coal and allowed to sell it at any price he choB» forces the premium up to beyond what their coal was in the contract, so that the amount paid did not at all represent their profits or the item of general expenses. The intention was in this arrangement originally that something should be secured for these contracts towards paying the item of general expenses of the importers'' business. That is 40 cents per too, which is a low estimate in any dealer's business and includes office expenses, yard rent and so on, and coal which comes through his yard, it is considered by the general trade, ought to pay its fair share of those expenses whether it is on contract or to private consumers. Now the dealer in bidding for these contracts not only takes into account the amount of money which he is to receive baok, which, as I said, in our case was one-third or 20 cents per ton COAL. 291 on the contract. We were paying 60 cents. This item of general expenses is also left out of the calculation in bidding, because, of course, that is what this premium is intended lo cover. It is intended to help him on his general expenses and to help the other importers who do not fill the contract, and as a matter of fact, as 1 said, there is not a contract that has been handled in that way where there was a clear profit of 25 cents per ton. The committee adjourned. HousB OF Commons, 26th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr, Wallace in the chair. Elias Kogbrs, coal dealer, of Toronto, continued his evidence. By the Chairman : Q. Will you state again the price at which you bought coal in 1887 ? A. Have you reference to the circular prices ? I ga<^e you both the Circular prices and then afterward from memory I gave the prices at which we bought. Q. Give us the prices at which you bought ? A. What month ? Q. During 1887, commencing April or May, give us the price for the net ton ? A. You understand that I can only speak from memory. Q. Have you not a record of the price ? A. No ; I have no record of the price. I think we paid $3. 57 per net ton in tlie month of May. Q. $3.57 per net ton? A. Yes. Q. In May, June and July? A. I think there might have been some varia- tion or advance in the price in June or July. Q. But in August? A. In August there was an advance of 30 cents I think on some coal and 20 cents on others per gross ton . Q. Making an average of about $3.79 ? Ai That would depend on the quan- tities that were bought. Q. What quantities did you bring in at that price ? A. I could not tell from memory. Q. That was 30 cents advance per gross ton and 20 cents, which would make it $3.75 and $3.84; A. Yes $3.75 and $3.84. Q. That is the September price? A. There was no change in the circular prices in September. £ think prices advanced though. I think more was paid in September than in August. Q. But you cannot give the price ? A. I cannot give the exact prices we were buying at in September. Q. Could you give us the prices that you paid in October ? A. We were very much behind with our orders. Q. It is a curious thing that a gentleman dealing in one article cannot come down here and give evidence on that one article? A. I did not come down here to give evidence especially as to our private matters, the prices at which we bought, and 1 must say that I do not think — it is hardly a fair thing that I should be singled out and asked to reveal all our private aflEairs for the benefit of our com- petitors, which it certainly is. I have given definite statements as to the profits there were in the business, but I do not think it is a right thing that I should be asked to give information which would result in benefiting my competitors* Q. I have a letter here inviting yourself down to give farther information ? A. Yes, and I have been quite willing to give it. Q. And when we ask you for the information you tell us that you do not know ? A. I am quite willing to give any information that will help the Committee to get at the true facts. Q. And this is the information we ought to know in order to arrive at a con- clusion ? A. I have not the figures with me, and I do not think that it is right that I should be singled and made a target for the benefit of my competitors. 3— lyj 292 ELIAS ROaSRB. Q. You should not say that. In yoar last letter you stated that you would be happy to come down any time and give further information ? A. 1 would be very glad to do so if I bad an opportunity. Q. And then you sent us another letter ? A, Yes ; that letter to yourself. Q. That was not in the evidence ? A. There is no personal feeling about it. Q. That letter was largely called out by the evidence, and you said that you would be glad enough to come down. Then you were down and you said that at any other time you would be glad to come down and give the Committee full information, and so when you are asked to come down 1 do not think there is a grievance on your part? A. I bave given you information on these points. By Mr. Guil et : Q We have not received definite information on these points. Being the largest dealer in Toronto, and having expressed a willingness to the Committee to come back and give further information, I think you ought to be prepared to give us all the facts in reference to these cases in order that we may see that there has been no undue profit resulting from this combination ? A. As far as I am concerned I am willing to give every information in my power which will enable the Committee to arrive at a conclusion, and which I t>uppo8e they are aiming at. As I understand it, they want to get at the true facts of the case with reference to the organization of this Coal Exchange and its workings. Q. Of course there is nothing personal ? A. I do not think there ought to be, but it I am asked to give information which is going to result in our injury and be a benefit to others, 1 think I am right in refusing to give it. Q. We want to get at the effects which have resulted from the forming of this combination ? A. I have not the slightest objection. Q. It is essential to the objects aimed at b^ the Coaimittee that we should get this information? A. Yes ; but it is not right that you should pry into private affairs of a firm. By the Chairman : Q. All the investigations are into private affairs or private business ? A. So far as I am concerned I have not the slightest objection, and I would be quite willing to have a law passed to-morrow that will prevent this organization being continued. I think it would result to our benefit, but I do not think I should be asked to give in- formation which is going to be an injury to my own personal business. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Have you ever thought in your own mind as to what direction that legisla- tion should take ? A. IQo; I cannot say that I have. I think they have in New York an Act which prevents parties agreeing upon the prices which shall be charged. Q. Is it a recent Act ? A. Yes ; it is a recent Act. The reason I know it is that the Western Anthracite Joint Association instead of pursuing the course which they formerly did now make their action entirely recommendatory. Instead of say- ing that their prices shall be so and so, they say we recommend that prices shall be BO and so. Q. Have you one of their circulars? I suppose their circulars do not reach you. That would come from parties that are recommended? A. I have not the minutes of the meetipg in New York last Wednesday at which prices were fixed, the opening prices for this season. Q. Now they recommend that certain prices shall be the price ? A. I might say further that during the last year, 1887, 1 have no knowledge of any interference on their part with dealers in Toronto or any part of Canada, Q. The fact of the legislation being passed has shaped their subsequent action ? A. That is the only effect so far as I know, that instead of making a positive direc- tion as to what the coal prices shall be they simply say we recommend that the prices of coal shall be so and so. Q. Formerly they fixed the prices and said this shall be the price ? A. Yes. Q. And now they recommend that this shall be the price ? A. Yes. GOAL. 299 Q. Then the association still exists as it formerly did ? A. Yes. Q. That is they have an organization ? A. Yet* ; but I do not know whether they have any constitution or not, I do not think ihey have. Q, They meet together ? A. Yes ; and the minutes of each meeting are printed and sent to the shippers. I do not know that they have a minute book even. Q. And this is called? A. The Western Anthracite Joint Association, composed of the representatives of the leading railways and coal shippers. Q. Railways that are interested in the coal trade ? A. Yes. Q. I suppose all those railways that are interested are also proprietors of coal mines — the most of them ? A. I think they all are to some extent. I am not sure whether the Pennsylvania Railway operate any anthracite mines or not ; they aro operators of a bituminous mine, but I ktow the others are. Q. Do you know from your experience anything about the average rate per ton for carrying coal over there ? I am only asking it eo far us you may know ? A. They claim that they ought to have a: least three-quarters of a cent per ton per mile. Of course they do not always get that. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Are you able to give that evidence? Have you the jSgures referring to the prices for coal ? A. No; I have not the pricee. I coa id not speak with regard to that except from memory. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know what you paid for coal in Aagust last ? A. I gave it yesterday to the best of my knowledge. Q. $3.74 and $3.84 per net ton. What did you pay for it in September? A. I could not tell you. The wholesale price for September, I mean the circular price, was the same as in August, but I think the prices actually obtained by the shippers was higher. I think we paid a higher price in September. Q. Than you did in August ? A. Yes. Q. You think that, but you do not know ? A. No; I cancot speak positively. Q. What did you pay for coal in October? A. I think my objection should hold in regard to these matters and not be persisted in further. I stated yesterday that we bought in advance of the circular and in others we had less prices. Q. Well, I think the Committee will agree with me that this investigation is for the purpose of msking a full enquiry into these matters, and in order that our enquiry may be full and be of any value, we will have to insist upon the questions being answered that have been asked in regard to prices. I think that is the vital point in this enquiry just now in reference to coal. We have made that enquiry about all other commodities that we have examined into and I don't see why coal should be an exception ? A. I have made a definite statement and I believe that I would be borne out by all the principal importers in Toronto that the profits have not exceeded 25 cents per ton, and that ought to cover that point it seems to me. The Chairman. — We do not think that touches it at all. The sense of the C©m- mittee is, unless 1 have misunderstood their views, and if not, any member of the Committee can rise and express his dissent, is, that the prices should be given. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q, There has really been nothing done except the mode pursued. There was no laws £zed, that is the Committee did not settle any definite line of action? A. With reference to my letter in which I said I had other letters and papers, I have them here, and would be glad to give this information, which I think will assist the Committee in arriving at the true facts. By the Chairman : Q. You are not willing to give the information which the Committee wants? A. I do not think I ought to be asked to give this. I am the only large importer who is brought down here, and I am asked questions about private affairs, which would result to our injury, ard the benefit of our competitors. The same might be said of any one else who might be summoned and asked the same questions. 294 ELIAS BOQBRS. By Mr, Ghiillet : Q. It is not a question as to your willingness, but as to your ability ? A. As a matter of fact I cannot give you the information, if I were disposed to do so. By the Chairman : Q. You said yesterday that the cost of coal for August was S4.20. That^was the price without the rebate being taken off. It is now, according to what you state, $3.75 and $3.84 ? A. You must be careful not to confuse the two. I gave you cir- cular prices yesterday, and state now what I think we actually paid. Q. The circular prices for September was the same as August ? A. Yes. Q. Do you swear you do not know how much you paid for coal in September ? A. No; we paid different prices. Q. Do you believe it came to more, or less? A. 1 believe the price paid in September was higher than the price paid in August, although the circular was the same. Q. You have full particulars in the book with you ? A.I have all the circular prices. Q. Can you tell what additions to or subtractions from were made to these cir- cular prices? A. I know that in the months of October and November especially coal could not be obtained by rail at all, except at an advance on circular prices. I am talking of first-class coal. There is a matter that I want to explain in that con- nection, when I have an opportunity. Q. We have asked you for prices in September, and you have said you do not know what you paid; Nosv for October do you know ? A. I do not. Q. You do not know what price you paid. Have you any idea, something near the price? A. I know there was a very large advance. Q Do you know what you paid ? A. There was over a dollar advanoo in the cost of our coal at Toronto from May to November, and in the month of November we imported more coal than in any other month in the year. Q. What was the price list of coal in October and November, or December, or September. Can you give us the prices you paid in November? A. [cannot. Q. Do you kn< w ? A. I do not at present. I have not the information with me. I know we paid different prices. Q. You are always paying different prices. Do you know what prices you paid for good coal in November ? A. No; I would not undertake to say. Q. Do you know it ? A. I might make a guess at some of the prices. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Tell us what you believe you paid? A. I do not think I would care to do that Jsy the Chairman : Q. There are two things to consider ; whether you know the facts, and whether you want to give them to the Committee. Mr. Rogers has said that he does not think the Committee has a right to ask him this question, and expresses a hesitancy in giving the answer. We want to know if you know the prices you paid ? A. I have stated once or twice that I cannot state positively. Q. For what cause ? Because you do not know ? A. Because I have no memo- randum, nor record. I know we paid different prices, and that prices advanced very largely in the latter part of the reason. The Chairman — I think that is an evasive way of putting it. By Mr. Bain ( Went worth) : Q. Did I understand you that there was an advance of a dollar in the price of ooal between May and November, and that it was owing to coal prices advancing, or was it the increased freight ? A. Both. By the Chairman : Q. 1 have a Hiatemenl here about the prices. This is something about which yon d(j know. The ejtpenses of handling is given as follows : — Say a ton of coal cost in lb87 (the statement here gives ihe same prices as you gave) $3.57 for the begin- COAL. '295 'ning of the first four months. That is, the net price was 83.57. Now, the freight -was then 25 cents ? A. What month was that ? Q. May. The prices in 1887 were $3.57 for April, May and Jane. What did you pay for freigbt in those months ? A. In the month of May I think there were no vessels at less than 30 cents. Q. What did you pay for freight ? A. I think there were no vessels less than 30 cents. We paid that. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Did you pay any more than that ? A. I do not think so. By the Chairman : Q. Handling at the dock is given at 20 cents ? A. That is the amount paid to the heavers. Q. And you have a contract at 15 cents ? A. No. Q. What do you pay ? A. 20 cents . Q. Harbor tolls, 4 cents ? A. 1 believe that is right, it was formerly 5 cents, Q. Hauling to the yard 5 cents ? A. I do not think it can be done for that. Q. Freight, July and August, that will cost 30 to 35 cents? A. Until the last of July we could not obtain vessels at all. We only had one, and that was the last of July, and the rate we paid was 39 cents. Q. What did you pay in August ? A. 38, 38^, and 37J. The majority of the vessels were 38 cents. In some cases I think we paid about 35 cents. Q. Then what did you pay in September ? A. We paid 38, 40, 43, 39, 40, 43 and 43. Q. What was the lowest amount ? A. The lowest in September was one vessel at 37^. Q. For screening and loss on screening 10 cents. Is that about correct ? A. -That 18 about correct for the labor, without anything for the loss. That might be about right for the labor ; it would depend a little on how it was done. If it is •thoroughly screened that would hardly do it for the labor alone. Q. Does it cost you 10 cents to screen your coal? A. Yes; we screen it alL Coal is better screened in Toronto than in any other city I know of. Q. Does it cost you 10 cents for labor on vessel coal ? A. Yes ; about that on ^vessel coal. I reckoned the labor at that in oar estimates of general expenses. The loss, however, on coal alone is fully 1 > cents. Q. What are screenings worth ? A. $1.50 to $:2 delivered. You have to take off the cost of delivery. We have over 2,000 tons of screenings in our business last year; nearly 2,500. Q Both from bituminous and anthracite? A. Anthracite alone. There is about 5 per cent, of screenings in vessel coal. In many places they screen very -coarsely, and in others very finely. Q. The delivery is put down at 40 cents ? A. That is a low estimate. We have to deliver over an area of over five miles, and I think it averages fully 40 cents. Q. Expenses of office, yard and interest, 25 cents ? A, It cannot be done for that. You cannot pay your clerk hire and yard expenses for that. Q. In Ottawa they have done it for less? A. I do not know anything about Ottawa. Q. Carts cost as much, and interest is about as high ? A. I only put our interest at 6 per cent, and I know what our yard rent, clerks and interest cost us, and as I figured it, it comes to 44 cents. Q. This estimate is made up at $4.91 for stove and nut, and $4.60 for egg and grate. The prices at this time were 15.75 and $6 ? A. It is a remarkable fact that the men who figure in that way are the men who go into insolvency. Q, We do not know whether these men go into insolvency or not? A. I know that tbe gentleman whose evidence I have, as reported here, as stating t^at his office and geneial expentscs only came to 25 cents, is short some $50,000. Q. I can say this, that the men in Ottawa who have given a sworn estimate at 46 cents of all ezpesses have not gone into insolvency, but have divided a 220 per 1296 KLIAS ROQERS. cent, dividend for the year. A. Their coal in Ottawa cost about the p/ime as in- Toronto, and they have been oblaiuiug $8, while we have been obtaining only $6. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Mr. Hargraft, at a net cost of $4.68, and selling at $6.25, has made a net profit of 57 cents ? A, The whole of that coal was received before prices advanced. Q. That was the spring qaotation according to circular, and he showed a net profit of over 50 cents. He had the same freight to pay, and 25 cents for wharfage, instead of 5 cents, and has to haul it a considerable distance to his yard, perhaps 300 or 400 yards Be delivers that into his yard and to his consumers at a profit of 50 cents ? A. What does he estimate his insurance and office expenses at ? Q. He allowed a certain amount for interest. A. I saw those figures, and I saw no allowance for yard rent, nor clerk hire, and he only allows cartage at 25 cents. The whole of his coal, which is a very small quantity, is imported early in the sea- son, before prices have advanced. The conditiOBS are not parallel. You must aver* age the cost of the coal. Q. The 20 cents wharfage would go to make up any difference in the cartage, and there is a clear difi'erence of 75 cents, after allowing for office expenses. By the Chairman : Q. More than that, you say that the coal and freights go up. Well, your price goes up to correspond? A. Excuse me, but it does not. It did not in Toronto. Q. What? Didn't it? A. Four-fifths of the coal in Toronto was sold at the Bame price. You can make no comparison with these small places, unless you take all the circumstances into account. The ground rent is more valuable in Toronto, and the distance for delivery is more than double what it is in these small places. Q. You have a statement there of the retail prices in Buflalo ? A. Mr. Har- graft runs his coal business in connection with the grain business, and 1 understand he don't figure anything for these expenses, and allows nothing for bad debts. Q. I am pointing out that we will take off that 25 cents from his profit, and he will still have 52 cents and the increase in price to 86, would make it $1.07 ? A. It is very unfair to make any comparison unless all the circumstances are taken into account. Q. In Buflalo now they have these incidental expenses ? A. Yes; coal sells less in Toronto on the average than it does in Bufi'alo, and it has for the last ten years if you take into account the cost of transportation between the two places. Q. What is the cost of traneportation ? A. The lowest rate on the average from Black i:{ock on anthracite coal last year was 65 cents. Of course that don't include any haulage from Buflalo to Black Eock, putting the prices at Black Eock the same as at Buffalo. Q. The rates here are the same as on the cars at Buflalo or Suspension Bridge ? A. That is the ca^e sometimes. Q. That ie given here in that way. These are the rates on the cars either at Buffalo or Suspension Bridge. What were the prices at Buffalo in November or August ? A. You can take our coal. The Toronto coal for the season of last year, stove and nut, was $6 per ton. Q. What was the price in August ? A. $6. Q. What was the price in October ? A. The prices advanced sometime later ia the fall, but the orders had all been taken previous to the advance. Q. The prices were Juno, $6 ; October, $6 ; December, $6.75 ? A. But there was very little coal sold at any advance above $6. Q. The prices in Buffalo on these dates, the highest prices, were $5, $5.25, $5.50, November the Ist, $5.75, and December 1st, $6.75, and 70 cents freight, which would make $6.15. Was that the highest price in Buffalo, $6.15, and Toronto $6.75 ? A. In Buffalo no coal was sold in advance. Coal was sold as delivered, and ^not as in Toronto. Q. Did you[8ell coal^in advance all summer there ? A. Well, we did, to a cer- tain time. COAL. 29t Q. You had a rule against it up to a certain time ? A. Yes. Q. So you didn't sell it all through the summer for future delivery ? A. All orders taken previous to the Ist of July, the same rule applied, hut the bulk of the orders, however, were taken in the months of August and September ; they always are. The Chairman : Q. I think you are spending a good deal of time explaining and yon don't answer the questions yon should answer. Witness. — I will explain in the first place— — The Chaibman. — You will allow me to ask questions and you will answer. There are other witnesses here and if you take up the whole time of the Com- mittee Witness. — I am prepared to state the facts in this connection and it is import- ant. The matter has been brought up. I didn't bring it up. I would like to make an explanation in this case, it is important it should be understood. The Chairman. — You will answer questions now. Witness.— I ask the Committee. I thick witnesses should have some rights before the Committee. The Chaibman.— I think we have dealt fairly and honestly. I don't think you have given your evidence as fairly and honestly as the Committee have a right to expect. Mr. Bain. — I object to have to fight every statement that you make. Witness.— If the Committee will allow me two minutes to explain that matter I will put it straight. It is very important I should have an opportunity of doing it. I am referring to the diflference between Boffalo prices and Toronto prices. The Chaibman. — K you go into that. I have the whole statement here it will take all the next two hours. idr. GciLLET.— You make that statement afterwards atd it will go before the Committee. Witness.— I want it distinctly understood that the coal in Toronto is eold at one price and is eold throughout the year at one price, while in Buffalo it is sold at the prevailing prices; and the average prices in Toronto are lets, the difference in the cost of freight taken into consideration, than the aveiage prices in Buffalo. By the Chairman : Q. On the 11th oi August, 1886, there was a meeting cf the Coal Exchange in Toronto. Will ycu look at this statement here and see how much money has been received frcm contiacte. From the Toronto Waterworks how much money did you receive on the 11th August, 1886, or how much did the Treasurer receive from the Toronto Waterworks contract? A. That was explained before that that fine of Mr. Burns was allowed to be put as a premium and that represents that fine. Q. It was put in the pool ? A. Yes. Q. From the Boepital you received how much ? A. The reason that that was done was that as large a proportion of that fine should be returned to Burns as possi- ble. Q. The Hospital contract, how much was paid ? A. $900. Q. Knox College contract ? A. $195.00. Q. Local Government contract ? A. $1,500. Q. Who got that contract ? A. We got it. I said that yesterday. I do not see the object of going over these matters over and over again. Q. This money was divided up among them in proportion to the importation of anthracite coal was it ? A. Yes. Q. How much did you receive yourself? A. I could not say from mtmory, I suppose that is correct. Our tonnage was 6,740 tons and according to this we re- ceived $89631. SgS: r Q. Of this money? A. Of that money, that is, what we received back out of ■what we paid in, $1,500, we received back $696.31. -298 ELIAS ROGERS. Q. Yoa paid in $1,500. Did yoa get any other contract besides the Ldoal jeet of going into again. Q. Who wait over it 7 A. air. Wood. It is in Mr. Wood's evidence. Q. We have not gone over the half otit beiore? A. '^fiesotved that the pricea ior the Hoose of IndaMiy be $5.75 per net ton for stovn, and $5jfiv for eg& and $6JH» per tern for soft either for present delivery mr at yard dning winter.** Q. Who got that 7 A. John Keith. It waa awarded to him. Q. For how ranch? A. $160. Q. And the profits, how were they divided last year? Were they divided hat year the same as the year beliotn? A. The fwofita were divided in the same w^ with the exoepti wcH'ks. *' Beeohred that tlM prices be 1^ open fi>r each one to tender at any prion they may ehooae.** Q. Bac the city contract ? A. The prices were 25 eents lew than the currant prices. Q. Who got the ctrntract f that? A. That is something I do not know any> thing aboau I waa not present at this meeting and i do not know anydiing abonfc that. Q. Who got the contract fi>r it? A. I can give what ia heaisay, bat of ooorsa I have no personal knowiedge <^ it all. I was not praaent i^ the meeting and cannot say anything about ik 300 ELrAS BOGSRS. Q. Bat these are the minates and are correct ? A. Yon can read them as well as I. Q. Who got the contract for the city supply? A. I do not remember. Q. You do not know anything about it ? A. No ; I do not remember who was to kAye it. 1 bad nothing to do with it. Q. You cannot tell who got the city contract last year, who was supplying the ooal for the city offices ? A. McConnell was the party who got the contract. I voted myself for him to get the contract. I was on the committee in the City Coun- cil which awarded him the contract. Q. And the arrangement that was made? A. I have no personal knowledge of what was agreed upon by the association. Q. But the prices stated in the minates ? A. The prices were 25 cents less than ihe current prices. His tender was 25 cents more for anthracite on his contract for coal, and I myeelf awarded bim the contract, but as a matter of fact he did not sup- ply the coal he contracted for, and the city would have been better off if they had taken the association contract. I remember that he tendered for the best Briar Hill coal which is a {superior coal at about the same price that the association had ten- dered for the medium grade, and I told my colleagues of the committee that of oourse the coal he had tendered for was a superior coal, and on that account h& should be awarded the contract, but afterwards it was ascertained that he had not supplied the coal that be had contracted for, in fact he put in a coal inferior to the coal which would have been supplied by the association. Q. What coal did he agree to supply ? A. Briar Hill coal. Q. Is that the best quality ? A. The best quality of stove coal, a higher priced soft coal. There are other coals of a different grade that are sold under different name of the same or equal quality. Q. You spoke about selling coal for future delivery. Had they permission to sell coal for iutuie delivery during the whole season ? A. In 1887 ? Q. Yes ? A. No ; in the forepart of the season the association decided that coal should not be eoid for future delivery inaemuch as it could not be bought in that way but it was found that competition was such that some dealers took orders and took the chance, and this pievailed to such an extent that it was thrown entirely open and every oLe was allowed to sell at the then prices for delivery at any time tbroughout the year if they paw fit to take the chances, which they did. Q. And they took the chances ? A. Yes ; and the bulk of the coal was sold at those rates. Q. When was that resolution come to. Had you anyone hauled up for making conuacts for future delivery during the eeason? A. I dare say there may have beeu. Q. But were there any hauled up ? A. I have no recollection of anyone being hauletl up. I attended but veiy few meetings in 1887, but I think it is quite possible that there may have been. Q. I see a resolution here with reference to Thomas McConnell & Co. being still in default. It reads : " The secretary was instructed to notify the shippers on the other side that this firm is still in default and request them to govern themselves aooordingly." This is a resolution passed by the association of which you are a mem« ber? Q. Are you a member of this association ? A. Yes. Q. Acd you were present at 20 meetings according to the secretary's minutes? A. I was not present at 20 sittings. Q. Do you swear that you were not at 20 meetings? A. I did not sit through 20 meetings. I may have called at the door and asked what was going to come up and then went away. Q. The secretary's report says that you were present at £0 meetings. How were they to govern thejoEelves accordingly? A. I explained in my first examina- tion and again yesteiday that the association on the other side fcent a committee to Toronto in the spring of 1886, COAL. 30t Q. You explained it twice ? A, I do not think there is any necessity for ask- ing it. Q. What do you mean by governing themselves accordingly ? A. I suppose that means their original action. They distinctly told us that they would not supply any dealer who would not go into this association and who did not abide by its re- solutions. We were, all of us, compelled in that way to join the association. Q. The meaning of this was that they were not to sell coal to JicConnell ? A. To carry out what they first intended to do when they first came to Toronto. Q. Does it mean that ? A. It may mean that. I suppose that was the princi- pal intention of the Committee. Q. Now all those tenders that were received, the money was put into one pool you say and divided among what class of men ? A. The importers. Q. The importers only? A. Yes; because they are the only men who have large yards and much expense, and the intention was as I explained, that this money should go towards paying their general expenses. The intention was that the con- tract should pay their share and only their proper share of this office and yard ex- penses. Q. You told us last time that you were interested, as part owner of a coal mine ? A. I was the part owner originally and afterwards the exclusive owner of a bitnau- nous coal mine in Jeffereon County, Pa. and operated it for some years. Q. Are you the owner now ? A. No ; I sold it. By Mr, Guillet : Q. How lon^ ago ? A. Two years ago. By the Chairman : Q. Are you interested in any coal mine at present ? A. No, Q. You are not interested in any coal mine? A. No ; but my partner is. Q. But you have no interest in it ? A. No. By Mr. GuiUet ; Q. Are you a partner with him in the business of mining? A. No. Q. Who is your partner ? A, Mr. Dininny. Q. He is a partner with you in your coal business in Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. Do you get mach of your coal from him? A. Last year we did, but we sometimes boaght outside. Last year we bought from the Delaware, Lackawanna and "Western and other parties. Q. About how much did you get from your partner ? A. Aboat 25,000 tons probably. Q. Are the rates the same ? A. That is going into a private matter. As I explained before, I think it is a private matter which I do not think I should be asked about. If I were to give information it might injure our business. In our business we get nothing but the best quality of coal and we pay the highest rates less of course the advantage which we naturally have of being large dealers and as being able to pay for our coal. Q. You sold about 100,000 tons last year, that is within the twelve months yon sold that quantity ? A. Yes. Of course our business has been increasing steadily every year sioce we first started. The increase last year over the previous year was 20,000 tons. I think we handled in the neighborhood of 80,000 tons during 1886. Q. Your office expenses would run lower than a dealer who sold only 10,000 ? A. Not necessarily. Q. But a large business is more economically managed than a small business ? A. It depends how it is managed. We manage Our business very systematically. We keep a perfect record of every transaction and a perfect check on our business throughout. Now some gentlemen conduct their basiness without that system and take chances. Q. Of course the principle holds good that a large basiness like that is conducted on a smaller percentage than a smaller business ? A. No ; not if the small basiness is conducted in the same way. 302 MICHAEL DWAN. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You stated the same thing before about this BuflPalo and New York ? A. I have not stated this before. By the Chairman : Q. The insurance men are waiting here, and your explanations are largely re- petitions of what you have already stated ? A. Mr. Chairman, you stated some time ago that I was subpoenaed here because I could give some further information, and I have not had an opportunity of giving this further information which I proposed to give. Q. You have been here for two days? A. Yes; and I have been badgered and cross-questioned Q. You have no right to say that ? A. I think I am quite right in saying that. Q. I think we have been quite easy with you ? Mr. Bain. — I would like to see the man who would not call it badgering, if it was not. Witness. — 1 want to give this information, because it is important that it should be understood. It is with reference to anthracite coal. I want to show you that there are diflferent qualities of anthracite coal which come to all these markets. The Chairman. — Wait a momenta This is simply a conversation, the reporter will cease writing. MioHABii DwAN, sworn. By the Chairman ; Q. Give your name, occupation and address? A. Michael Dwan, Coal Dealer, 18 Queen Street Bast, Toronto By Mr* Guillet: Q. Have you been long in the coal business ? A. Only about a year on my own account. Q. You were not in business a year ago on your own account ? A. Not a year ago. Q. You were carrying on business in Toronto as agent, or in some capacity? A, 1 have been connected with it for years, but 1 commenced last year on my own account. Q. You made a statement to one of the Commercial Agencies in February last, did you not ; 29th February, 1888 ? A. I do not remember. Q. l>id you not call at the office of a Commercial Agency in Toronto, and make some statement with regard to your business when you bought out Mr. McConnell ? A. I made a statement with regard to my standing. Q. You remember what you considered your coal and stock and plant worth then ? A. Well, I do not remember exactly what I did tell them, but at the time I bought out McConnell, his place was very small and he had no stock of any con- sequence. I bought it out for some $600. Q. You had some plant of your own ? A. Not at that time, but I added. Q. Was that your full capital ? A. No. Q. What did you represent yonr full capital to be then ? A; I do not know that I represented my capital to the Mercantile Agency. Q. You made a statement to them at the time, February the 29th, 1888? A. Yes. Q. As to the value of yonr capital and plant? A. I think I stated to them that I wa8 worth $10,000. Q. Did you state that you were then worth $3,000, exclusive of your wife's pro- perty ? A.I think I mentioned to them that I had horses, carts and harness which cost me $3,000. Q. Excluding stock on hand ? A. I do not think I made any such statement as that. Q. You stated when you called on them that you had bought out Mr. McConnell ; that he had only a small stock, but now you have 10 carts and horses and other equip* COAL. 3oa ments which cost over $3,000 ? A.I remember calling there in consequence of the rating they had given me. The Commercial Agency rated me, I t hink, at $500 or under. Q. That was after you commenced business, after buying out McConn ell ? A. I did not notice the rating until about the time I callea on them in February, a friend having called my attention to it. I called on the Mercantile Agency and they explained then, I think, that they had given me the rating on account of the rate of purchase I had made from McConnell, intending to make enquiry from me after- wards what my rating was ; but they did not happen to do so and the matter got printed in the book. Q. Do you swear that you were worth $3,000, in your own right when you bought out McConnell ? A. Yes, and more too. Q. That was less than a year ago; last June ? A. Yes; it was last Jane. Q. How much coal have you sold since then ? A . About 7,000 tons. Q. You are now worth $10,000, you claim? A. I do not consider I made it out of coal. Q. Do you buy your coal all outside? A. Chiefly in the city. Some from Bailey & Company, some from Crane and some from Eay & Company. Q. Tou bought principally from Bailey ? A. Probably moie than half; the balance from the other two parties. Q, Have you a yard ? A. No ; I do not deliver it from my yard. I deliver it from their yard. I take orders and deliver it from their yard. Q. What did you pay for it ? A, It averaged me $5. Q, Your retail prices were the same as theirs ; are you a member of the associa- tion ? A. Yes ; I could not sell coal without being so. Q. You sell at association rates? A. Yes. Q. Do you deliver it yourself? A. Yes, I deliver it myself. Q. It averaged you $5 ; sometimes less, I suppose ? A. Yes ; sometimes lesa^ and sometimes more . Q. What was the average retail price during the season ? A. The principal part of the coal was sold at $6 per ton . Q. You sold, however, at the association rates ? A. I took a considerable num- ber of orders at $6, to be delivered from time to time during the winter. Q. When did you take those ? A. During the early part of the year* Q. Any before July? A. I do not remember what time the association allowed parties to take orders for future delivery. By the Chairman : Q. In the early part of the season they did not allow that ? A . No ; but I think it was after July. By Mr. Guillet: Q. You w»u Id not take it after July at these prices. You would take orders for delivery in August, or if you were selling in August for delivery in the future, aasociation prices would govern ? A. Yes. Q. How much was the price in August ? A. I really do not remember what the price was in August. Not being an importer, I do not know. By the Chairman : Q. In August the selling price was $6. The next price was given in October. It was $t) in both cases. You say you were selling for future delivery and that after a certain period it was not objected to. Do you remember putting an advertisement in the paper offering to take orders for future delivery in July or thereabouts? Have you any recollection of it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I see here in the minutes the following: — " Mr. Dwan's advertisement. The secretary submitted a copy of an advertisement to which his attention had been called in which Mr. Dwan offered to take orders to be delivered daring the winter. The secretary was instructed to notify Mr. Dwan to withdraw that portion of the advertisement immediately as it is against the rules. (Exhibit 34a). You with- drew that advertisement, did you ? A. Tes. 304 WILMOT D. MATTHEWS. By Mr. OuiUet : Q. What other business have you ? A. Wood business as well as coal. Q. Prices are regulated for wood by the association ? A. Not altogether. Pro- bably they might be fixed but not so binding as coal. Q. Were you interfered with, or did you attempt to sell coal for future delivery after that ? A. Not until we had permission from the exchange. Q. When was that promise given ? A. 1 do not remember exactly when it was. Q. In August ? A.I would not be certain, I think it was. Q. I see that a Mr. Daniels was charged before the association. " A charge was brought against Mr. Daniels for selling," &c., &o. (Exhibit 34a.) That was against the rules to sell for future delivery ? A. Yes. Q. What was done with Mr. Daniels ? A. I do not kuow. I only attended two meetings. Q. You were not a member of the Executive ? A. No. Q. Did you get any share of the profits realized from the sale of these tenders ? A. No. Q. Except that your share of the insurance or gratuity was paid out of that fund by the Board of Trade ? A. I am not insured. Q. You receive no benefit then in any way ? A. No. Q. Your business has been fairly prosperous during the year ? A. Yes; fairly prosperous. Q. You say you have not imported any ; you bought from the importers ? A. Yes. Q. You are not in as favorable a position as those who import — import to sell again ? A.I suppose in fact the small quantity I handle would account for that. Q. You succeeded Mr. McConnell ? A. Yes. Mr. EooEBS. — I would like to ask whether the importers have the largest profit or the retailers ? Witness. — I think I can buy from the importer just as cheap as I oan import myself. Q. You have not had experience in importing ? A. I was engaged in the coal business years ago, I have had considerable experience. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworih) : Q. Were you in the coal business with anybody else ? A. I was employed by others. House op Commons, Ottawa, 27th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning; Mr. Wallace in the chair. WiLMOT D. Matthews, grain dealer, of Toronto, sworn : By the Chairman : Q. You are President of the Board of Trade at Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. There are sections of that Board, are there not ? A. Yes. Q Has your Board ot Trade any special control over these sections in any way ? A. Yes. Q. What control have they ? A. The by-laws and rules under which they work are subject to the approval and dictation of the Council of the Board. Q. All the by-laws that they pass and their constitution? A. Yes; and their constitution. Q. Are they submitted to the Council for its approval ? A. Yes, they are sub- mitted for the approval of the Council. Q. Have you seen the constitution and by-laws of the coal section of the Board ? jA. Yes. Q. Did yoa read them over ? A. I have. • COAL 8KCTI0N, T.B.T. 305 Q. Do the Council of the Board of Trade approve of the oath to be giveu to th& members of the Coal Exchange ? A. No, sir. Q. Was it submitted to them for their approval ? A. No. Q. Had you seen the oath ? A. I had not seen it until your Committee met. Q. Had you seen it before the proceedings of this Committee ? A. No. Q. Did you know that there was a further oath which the employees were com- pelled to take against their will ? A. No. Q. Compelling a man to swear aajainst his will ? A. No. Q. I have here a certified copy of the minutes of the Toronto section of the Coal Exchange. Now jast turn to page 13 and see what that says about a special meeting called to take the affidavits of members. Do you see that ? A. Yes. Q. That is a certified copy of xhe minutes. What does it say there ? (Exhibit 34.) A. " That $5 per member be paid out of the fund of the Coal Exchange Branch as initiation fee for the gratuity scheme of the Board of Trade. After some discussion the motion was withdrawn." Q. Taking the affidavits of the members ? A. That is about the initiation feo for the gratuity scheme. Q. Turn to pages 15 and 16 ? (Exhibit 34.) A. " Resolved that the salesmen be requested to attend a special meeting to be held on Thursday, :i9th inst., at four o'clock, to sign an affidavit relative to past and future, beginning Ist May last. The affidavit to be prepared by the solicitor in the meantime and printed." Q. That affidavit is to refer not only to his future conduct, but to his past con- duct- What do you think of that resolution ? You say these were never submitted to the Board of Trade ? A. No, sir, Q. I see that this statutory declaration is for the members and that they have one altered to suit the salesmen ? A. I see that it showa that. It is under a speoiak rule of their branch. The others were called the rules and by laws. Q. There is a constitution first ? A. Yes. Q. Comprising 14 articles and nine by-laws? A. Yes. Q. And then there are the special rules ? A, These special rules have not been submitted to the Board for approval. Q The special rules have not but the by-laws have ? A. Yes. Q. ThoFe special rules, had you seen those special rules before ? A. No, sir. Q. But had yon heen this book? (Exhibit 346). A. No; this is the only book I have ever seen, the one that I brought with me. (Exhibit 33.) Q. What one is that ? A. There is no date upon it, but it says " Constitution and By laws of the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade." The by-laws are at the end. Q. When did you get this ? A. That has been in the possession of the Board of Trade since the constitution and by-laws were confirmed. Q When were these confirmed ? A. At the time that the Coal Trade Branch was formed. Q. That was in 1886? A. Yes ; about two years ago. Q. And they furnished you with this. In this copy that this Committee havo been furnished with, it states that the amount that shall be paid as an initiation feo shall not exceed one hundred and twenty doUare, but the " one hundred and " i* struck out, leaving it that the initiation lee shall not exceed $^0 (Exhibit 846), but in yours it says that^the amount of the initiation fee shall not exceed $100. (Exhibit 33). That does not agree. Mine says $100 and $20, but this one says $100. Now this one you have been furnished with (Exh bit 33), and which your Board approved of as the constitution and rules of the Coal Trade Branch the constitution includes 13 articles, while the one that I have been famished with (Exhibit 346), has 14, but the special rules are not in yours (Exhibit 33) at all, and t bey are really the im- portant part of it as you will see, more particularly special rule No. 1. (Exhibit o4o.) J A., xes. Q. You had not seen that before ? A. No ; I have not read this over. 3—20 306 WILMOT D. MATTHEWS. Q. That was deposited with me by Mr. Wood? (Exhibit 346.) A. Yes; 1 8oe it 18 under the heading of special rules. It is probably for the guidance of their own trade section. Q. But the whole of their by-laws ia for the guidance of their trade section ? A. Yes. Q. But the most important thing for the guidance of the coal trade section are the special rules which they did not submit to you and which they wished to be bound by? A. Yes. Q. The chairman himself signed the affiiavit, relative to past and future ? A. I saw that. Q. And I ha?e the affidavit here which I do not think the members of the Committee have heard. We had it before the Committee but I do not think the members have heard it read. This is the affidavit to be made by the salesmen. It is like the affidavit to be made by the employer in some respects, and then it goes on to say. It was to be relative to the past and to the future. It says : — " And I •do further solemnly declare that I have in the course of my said employment since the first day of May last, and at all other times with reference to this year's busi- ■ness, truly, faithfully and honestly observed, performed and kept the said provisions and terms of the said conutitution, by-laws and special rules of the said branch, and that I have not since the said date or with reference to the present year's business committed or attempted to commit or induced others on my behalf or on behalf of my said employer, or on behalf of any person, firm or corporation, to commit or attempt to commit apy secret or other evasion or violation thereof." That was passed in July and referred to their previous conduct for three months. May, June and July ? A. Bach one could have refused to take that affidavit. Q. No ? A. These special rules (Exhibit 346) are ultra vires according to their constitution, Q. Yes, but the salesman does not know their constitution; the salesman is not a member of their association, and he does not know. He has not a copy of this. <£he resolution says (Exhibit 34a.) the date of the meeting being the 27th of July, lb86 : " Resolved that the salesmen be requested to attend a special meeting to ba held on Thursday, the 29th inst., at four o'clock, to sign an affilavit relative to past and future, beginning first May last. The affidavit to be prepared by the solicitor in the meantime and printed." Now we will turn to the 29th, where it is stated : " The agents were present relative to the signing of the affidavits and the following refused to sign in the meantime: Breckenridge (S. Crane & Co.), Cf. Whiton (Conger & Co.), Knight (P. Burns)." " Moved by Mr. Eogers, seconded by Mr. McGrill, and resolved, — ^That a form of affidavit relative to past business be prepared by the solicitor for signatures of the Erincipal, and that any members who refuse to take the affidavit already prepared y Monday next, 2nd August, be declared in default." We are informed, in fact we knome to you to regulate the price? A. To regulate the price ? Q. Yes? A. We meet them to make sales. There is no regulation of prices. Q. Have you any association in connection with that ? A, None. Q. None whatever ? A. Oh, no. Q. You don't go there before the barley season commences to arrange with reference to the market ? A. It would be impossible. Q. Have you any arrangement to control the barley trade in any one section of the country ? A. No. Q . There is no ring then in barley buying ? A. I have never found it. Q. In leference to buying, you have several buyers sometimes in one town and in one locality ? A. No; not in one town. We have in some sectidns, different cities. Q. For instance you buy I suppose in the central part of Ontario? A. From what points, Toronto ? Q. Yes; Toronto as far east as Peterborough and north and west ? A. Yes ; we buy a very large quantity of barley in that section. Q. Practically you govern the prices in that section ? A. No. Q. Have you competitors? A. We may govern the prices from the fact that we buy a large quantity of barley and our prices will govern what the others will pay in that sense. Q. You have large competitors ? A. Yes ; large competitors. Q. Who are the competitors in that market ? A. There is Dandas and Flavelle of Lindsay. Q. Are they not your agents? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. Do they sell to you ? A, Not very often ; occasionally. Q. Do they consult with you about prices ? A. Oh, no. 310 WILMOT D, MATTHEWS. Q. There is do arrangetDent made by local bayers by which they agree to pay the game price? A. They may occasionally come to terms as to what they shall do, but we have never found it to work very long. Probably they get into ill-temper or bad feeling owing to some little dispute and that dispute is settled, but there is no combination. Q. There is no pooling of the receipts ? A. There is no pooling of the receipts. Q. Or profits? A. No. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Any division as to territory for doing their work ? A. Not that I know of. Sometimes one grain man will take a joint account with another in a particular trans- action but beyond that there is no further connection. By Mr. Guillet : Q. 01 course we get a great variety of information before this committee appar- ently from reliable source. For instance this statement — that there are leading barley buyers who combine together in Toronto and these men meet the representa- tives from the United States and settle upon the price to be struck and details are arranged generally ? A. I don't know it; if it is true we are not included in it. The Chaibman — It says meeting in the fall there. Mr. GtJiLLET— Yes; or before the barley season commences. Witness— I don't think it has ever been done. I don't think it could be done without my knowing it. By the Chairman : Q. You have no knowledge of it ? Q. Do you make an arrangement to sell your barley before you purchase it T A. Not as a rule. Q. Are you interested in malting houses in the United States? A. Yes. Q. Whereabouts? A. At Legroy and Utica. Q. Both in the State of New York ? A. Yes. Q. Do you send your barley there to be malted ? A . What we require for that purpose. Q. What is the capacity of these? A. We malt about 600,000 to TOOjOOO busheh . Q. In the two places ? A. Yes. Q. These are the capacities of the houses ? A. Yes. Q. You sell this malt to the American brewers ? A. To the American con- sumers, yes. Q. Do yoa ever pay a special tax to raise any special fund over there for legis- lative purpot^es? A. Occasionally. I do not know what it is used for; it is for general expenses for trade interests. By Mr. Bain : Q, I suppose that is practically an association amongst the maltsters ? A. There are the brewers and maltsters. Q. Have you a brewers' and maltsters' association over there ? Are you a mem- ber of the brewers' and maltsters' association over there? A. No. Q. Are you a member of the firm ? A. My father was, and he died about a month ago. By the Chairman : Q. Is this an ordinary yearly tax you pay ? A. No. Q. Just a special tax for special occasions ? A. Yes. Q. lb it quite a large amount assessed on you ? A. No. Q. It is a pretty large association ? A. Yes. Q. Money spent in Washington? A. I could not tell you ^here it was epent. It is under the contiol of the Executive. * ^ng^'' Q. Does that Executive include the whole of the United Stales or the State of l a special object ? A. Yes. Q. Had you the constitution of the association ? A. Yes ; I have read it over. Q Have you a copy of it ? A. No ; I was not a member, I am not a member. Q. You have contributed to the funds ? A. Our firm has. <^. The meinbers of your firm ? A. My father was a member. By Mr. GvHlet : Q. Then as to the duty on malt and barley ; when was the duty on malt and barley changed in the United States? A. On malt aboot four years ago, I think. Q. You had representations made by the maltsters? A. Yes; there was an agitation. The money was used in this agitation. Q. Were you maltsters on the other side at that time? A. Most of oar malting was done on this side. Q. You had stock in these malting establishments ? A. We had no stock. Q. You are a part proprietor ? A. Not at that time in the United States. By Mr. Bain ; Q. What eflfect had the change on the malting trade here, was it decreased in quantity? Yes; almost entirely. A. We do some malting business on this side, but not very much. Q. The tendency then of these changes was to take the malting over there and ship the barley ? A. Yes ; entirely. Q. Then I suppose in speaking of the recent changes placing barley and malt — will that change be likely to operate, supposing it was carried out, to the loss or gain of the maltsters, or would it be to their injury? A. It would materially benefit every farmer and manufacturer in this country engaged in barley. There seems ta be something superior in the quality of our barley, particularly with regard to liindt-ay and round there, for making lager beer, and they will take it. Q. Is it of greater value ? A. Yes. Q. The beer is of better shade ? A. It is fnore brilliant Q. You say it would be in the interests of the producers and manufacturers of barley 7 A. That would be the maltsters, yes. Q. They would gain ? A. Yes. Q. The malting trade is very large in Canada, and I was anxious to know whether it would be to their loss, because I would be sorry to see the malting trade lose. By the Chairman : Q. Do the Americans come over here to buy barley? A. Not as a rule, we go there to sell it. Q. Are they anxious to have our No. 1 barley ? A. Yes. 312 WILMOT D. MATTHEWS. By Mr. GuilUt : Q. The supply in insuffioient over there ? A. Yes. Q. They must have it ; the fact is they must have it ? A. They buy it. By the Chairman : Q. Is it your experience that if they cannot get it less than 15 that they will pay that ? A. Yes; our price is regulated here entirely upon the extent of the crops and at a reasooable difference between their own and ours they will take it? Q. There is always a demand for as much and more of No. 1 barley than we can raise ? A. There is always a demand for it. Q, I understand there is not enough barley produced to make malt enough for all the beer that is made over there, they frequently make it from corn and rice ? A. Well, that is to make it cheaper. Q. It is not equally as wholesome as beer made out of barley ? A. No. Q. Has the cousumption increased or decreased ? A. In the United States it is increasing. Q. Have you handled any of their barley ? A. New York State barley has been "very high. Q Chemically as well as in appearance ? A. So I have considered. Our lime- stone eioil in Ontario seems well suited for it. Q. How will it be in oar Canadian North- West Provinces? A. We have handled a good deal of that this year and malted a good deal and 1 have heard the expression made use of by a good many brewers that it gives satisfaction. That brilliancy however that 1 spoke of before is lacking. Q. There is a shade in the color ? A. It gets cloudy, as they call it. Q. Otherwise it is strong ? A. Yes. Q. That may be overcome as the land get works down ? A. That is not the experience of the Western States. Q. That they do not improve by cultivation ? A. No. Q. The soil retains these peculiarities? A. Yes. Q. Your opinion is that there will always be a brillijincy about Ontario barley that will make a demand for it? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. I understand that ale made from Canadian barley will keep longer than ale made from American barley ? A. That is generally accepted as being correct. Q. It improves with age ? A. Yes. Q. Then they practically must have our barley for their best quality of ale ? A. They buy it. Q. They cannot do without it as long as they make the finer qualities of ale ? A. Yes ; they buy it for that. Q. It is not a matter so much for the light qualities of ale ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( IVentworth) : Q. What is the appearance of ales made from corn and rice? A. That is one reaeon why it has grown to be so popular on the other side. Corn and rice give it a Ijrilliancy which counteracts the cloudiness of their own barley. Q. Ihen they mix to secure that? A. Yes. Q. Are there any drawbacks in other respects ? A. I do not know. Q. That is a chemical question ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. One question I would like to ask is this: — Ton say there is no arrangement by which prices are regulated between the Canadian buyer and the American buyer in Canada ? A. No, sir. Q. Do two or three or more meet together to your knowledge to make any ar- rangement about prices ? A. No. Q. So as to control the Canadian market or a laree portion of it? A. It woald be impracticable. It would be positively impracticable. BARLKT. 313 By Mr. McKay : Q. Is there any understanding before the barley baying seaeon commences asr to what price the Americans will import for ? A. No ; there may be a matter of opinion only. Q. Is there any discnssion about it ? A. Nothing more than by persons meet- ing informally in buainees. By the Chairnuxn : Q. Then you do meet informally ? A We happen to meet although there is no meeting called particularly to discuss that point. Q. You certainly have some diecuesion before the season commences ? A. Bach man may have his own opinion and give expression to it. Q. That opinion is given ? A. I would have no objection to stating it at any time. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Every time you meet a customer over there you talk about prices ? A. Yee, Q. But you do not meet to discuss prices ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Tou discuss what quantity of barley the crop will probably yield ? A. Yes. Q. Do sellers go over to meet buyers in Oswego and New York to obtain infor* mation of that kind ? A. Yes. Q. And prices are ba^ed on that? A. Yes ; on the supply and demand. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you find the estimates of the Bureau of Industry to be of any use in this case? A, No. By the Chairman : Q. Not accurate? A. They give a larger quantity of barley than the exports over the cooi^umption will show. We cannot rely on ihem. Q. How many bushels of barley would your lirra handle last year ? A. I have not made it up accurately, but 1 should think about 2,000,000 bushels. Q. Did you eell any of that in Canada? A. Yes. Q. What proportion ? Q. To dealers in Canada probably 250,000 bushels — ^tha shipper^i. Q. But to brewers ? A. To brewers, that would not amount to Q. What do you mean by shippers? A. Other shippers. Q. Then one-third of your product goes to malt houses in the United States? A. Yes. A. What portion of the States do you get the balance from? A. All the way from Missouri eastward. Q, You send some to New York and Boston ? A. Yes, and Philadelphia. Q. Where does it go to? A. Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Louis, are the princi- pal buyers. We send more to St. Louis than to any other city. Q. In speaking of malting what proportion do you send west of Detroit? A. That varies very largely according to their own crop. This year our own sales ia St. Louis would be small, probably not exceeding 100,000 bushels. Last year and the year before we sent a larger supply, probably 250,000 bushels to St. Louis alone» Q. And Chicago? A. It is also a large buyer. Q. Do you fend as much to Chicago as you do to St. Louis ? A. No. Q. What about Milwaukee ? A. It usually takes large quantities, but daring the last year it has taken a small quantity. Q. What about your brother dealers? A. Three years ago there was qaite a large quantity of Canadian barley went to Milwaukee. We sent some ourselves ; bati they seemed to be better situated for getting the superior quality of North -West bar- ley than other states. Wisconsin produces very fair quality of barley, and, since the introduction of corn and rice, although not desirable, they are used. Q. They mix rice and corn ? A. Yes. By Mr.Guillet: Q. They are growing barley to some extent in Michigan ? A. Yes. 314 aEOBQE TAYLOE, M. P. Q, Yet Canadian barley goes there ? A. Yes. Q. The American farmers objected to the duty bein^ taken off Canadian barley from 15 to 10 cents ? A. Yes ; they sent petitions to Congress against any reduction t year because the duly now is only ten cents. By Mr. Fisher; Q. One 60 cents and the other 70 cents ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Are you familiar with the State barley in other sections, Mr. Taylor? A, Only in New York. ^16 GBORaK TAYLOB, MP. Q. Well, throughout the State generally ? A. For about fifteen or twenty miles into the interior. By Mr» Fiiher : Q. It is just as good in every way as Canadian barley ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. How is it that they make a difference of ten cents a bushel between Canadian barley and American barley ? A. They draw three lines. There is a quotation for Western United States barley and another quotation for State barley, and another quotation for Canadian barley. Western barley means that it comes from that part of the United States that they call Western. Q. Where do they draw the line between Western and State barley ? A. I think it is east of Buffalo. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What are the prices of those three kinds? A. Western is cheaper thaa; State barley, Q. How much ? A. Well, it varies from 5 to 10 cents. Western is that much less than State barley. Q. And Canadian ? A, The Canadian leads the State barley by the duty now. It used to lead it 15 cents. Of course, if you look at the trade and navijoration you v^ill find that the greater part of the Canadian barley goes to the United States. They require all the bright barley for their lager beer. Their western barley will not make lager beer, but is used for the heavy beer and ales. By Mr. Bain {^Weniworth) : Q. How far east does the line extend for State barley ? A. State barley covers «11 the Stales growing it. I believe it is the maltsters that regulate the price, and that they bay '' we will pay so much for Western. We must have Canadian barley, but it will not do to let our people know we pay more for the same grade of barley because it is grown in Canada." Q. How is barley cleaned in the United States? A. I think American barley is better cleaned than that from the east of Cobourg and Port Hope, I think west •of Port Hope it is better cleaned. All that is sold on the Toronto market, which is east of these places, is better cleaned. Q. Do you grade it ? A. Yes; but our farmers do not clean it. Westward, however, is different, from the fact that if you go into the Toronto market there are inspectors who grade it instead of the buyer. Q. Unless a sample is very bad you do not dock the farmer on the price? A. No ; if it has the color. By the Chairman : Q. You make a difference between number one and number three ? A. Yes; the color makes the difference. Q. In the case of the farmer who sells on the Toronto market, there is no one inspects his barley. A. Yes ; every lot that is sold is inspected. He sells on his grade ticket there. Q. I understood it was only car lots ? A. No; as I understand it every farmer gets his ticket when his lot is graded. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You grade on color ? Q. Yes; and weight. Q. Then if the barley weighs lighter you pay him less. A. Yes; if it weighs tinder 48, because the standard in Oswego is 48. Tney use the Winchester bunbel there, while we use the Imperial. If barley here would only weigh 46 it would be thrown into number three, no matter what the color might be. Q Do you clean it much ? A. We generally handle 10,000 bushels to 25 or 30 bushels of blowings. Q. That is what keeps the farmers np to placing nothing in bat barley, because below that weight it would be docked ? A. Yes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Have you bought barley in Cobourg? A. No. BABLEY. 3 IT Q. Mr. Mathews gave evidence that in that neighborhood and in the County of Northumberland the barley would grade almost equal with Toronto? A. I do not know where the line is, but it is west of Kingston somewhere. Q. You think the grading has something to do with the cleaning ? A. Yes; I wish we had an inspector. Q. There are a number of farmers who think if they get rid of a few pounds of dirt in their barley they are making money ? A. Yes, sometimes they put the dirt in the centre of the bag. Q. That system of buying prevails eastward all the way through ? A. Yes, as far as I know. When I was speaking on this question in the House I gave figurea from the quotations of the 8th November, 1881, when the duty in the United States was 15 cents, and if you will refer to that paper you will see that No. 1 Canadian was $1.15, while No. 1 State was $1. After that, the duty was lowered from 15 cents ta 10 cents, and the official quotation was 75 cents for No. 1 Canadian and 65 cents for No. 1 State, just the duty diflference. That is the New York quotation. Q. That is the ^'ew York city quotation ? A. Yes ; and if you will look at the papers after the duty was reduced, you will find just what I say, that there was just 10 cents of a diflFerence between all the grades of Canadian and State barley. Q. Does the western barley find its way into competition with Canadian ? A. Yes ; I saw samples of western barley on the board at Oswego last year. It seems to be about as good but it does not carry the color as well, but ior ales I do not think it would affect the quality of the malt any. Still I have been in Oswego when a man who had bought his barley at Clayton as bright in color as mine, so that yoa could not tell the two barleys apart on the board, yet mine sold for i5 cents more a bushel than his. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. It is quite possible if you took the whole production of the State and put it against the whole production of Canada, there would be some difference ? A. I do not think so . Q. How do you account for the price being reduced? A. The maltsters got the credit of reducing it. 1 think the maltsters and brewers regulate the price. They say we will pay so much ; we will pay so much for our barley here which can- not get out unless it goes to England. We will buy it at export prices ; but in plac« of allowing Canadian barley to go to England, we will say it is a better barley than State barley, because it is grown in a northern country. 1 think, however, it is only to satisfy their own people that they say the quality is better. By the Chairman : Q. If they could get a sufficient quantity of the bright barley there ? A. They would not give us the duty. By Mr. Fisher : Q. If their barley was as good as ours, why shouldn't they buy all their own first? A. They do, and buy all of ours as well. They say : "we will buy our own as long as it is on the market," and they do buy State barley as long as it is there. By the Chairman : Q. The combination prevents prices going up there ? A. Certainly. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q The duty on malt is per bashel ? A. Yes. Q. It is not so much per cent. ? A. I think not. Q. Yes; when barley came down maltsters had the advantage ? A. I think it is per bushel on malt. They raised the duty on malt . Q. At that time the brewers wanted malt free ? A. I have paid as high- as $l.*Jb for barley. Q. That was the time our maltsters had the good times . It is the time the malting business grew up in Canada ? A. Yes. Q. If barley came down to 60 cents and the malting duty was fixed at a per- centage on the assumption that barley was $1.10, maltsters had a decided advantage ? 318 PATRICK KELLKT. A. I do not think any better investment coald be made than to bay up the Canar. dian crop and hold it ; because the Americans mast have it. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They use rice and corn to make up for it, A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What proportion of Canadian and State barley is sold in Oswego? A. The great bulk of Canadian barley instead of going to Oswego goes direct to New York. If we cannot strike a customer in three days or in ten days in Oswego they charge VLB 1^ cent for ten days in the elevator, and another five days 1 cent, while 3 cents will carry us to spring ; generally if we do not get it at the first limit we put it on a canal boat and send it on to Albany and New York. Q. Oswego is not a competing point, it is a point at which you meet buyers? A. That is it. Q. You cannot tell what proportion of barley goes east? A. I have a table showing the receipts of Canadian and State barley, but still the great bulk of the Canadian barley goes to Albany. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Are all the maltsters in the United States in the ring or combination? A. I think so. It is to their interest to do so. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Can you tell what per cent, of other articles are coming into use on the other Bide ? A. 1 think they malt a good many oats. Q. I have understood that there is a growing consumption of other articles? A. Every year they are using more ; but they cannot make the lager beer only out of our bright eix rowed barley. Q. Have you ever shipped any to England ? A. We have sold to go to England ; sold at Montreal. It is 10 or 15 years ago, however, when this section grew two rowed barley altogether. The English people prefer it. It makes the heavy ale, and for feeding purposes they like it best. We sell it in Montreal for export. Q. Did you sell bright barley or dark ? A. The great balk of it was two rowed ■barley. We have got out of that however and grow barley suitable for the require- ments of the United Slates. Q. Were the shipments satisfactory then ? A. Yes ; we generally sold at a profit in Montreal, better than we could get by sending to the United States. Q. But you have had no dealing direct ? A. No. Q. That business has died out ? A. We had offers last year, but whether it was for the Montreal brewers or not I do not know. Q. You could do better on the other side ? A. I do not like shipping to Montreal. I do not like the boats. We cannot block ; we must keep it going out at one end as fast as it is coming in at the other. Q. I suppose your season is the year ending October ? A. Well, practically. However we try it when freights are low and insurances low. Q. It does not appear to have been the case this winter, I see the prices have gone up? A. They have gone away d()wn now, the bottom has gone clean out of it, I think there was a corner and I think it was bust. Honsi OF Commons, Ottawa, 8th May, 1888. Patbiok Ksllxt, Blythe, Ont., sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Is there much doing in the egg business in your part of the country ? A. Yes; that is a business that we are taking a good deal of interest in as farmers. Q. Could you toll the Committee what you know or have learned about the operations of an association in that business? A. Within the last 6 or 8 months a question has arisen as to a supposed combination that exists in the egg business in that western section of the oountry. EGGS. 319 Q. There is a combination ? A. That is how we understand it. Q. How do you understand its operation ? A. We understand it in this way: We see it talked about in the newspapers and articles written on it, and in fact, at> though I did not speak to Mr. Wilson, who, I believe is at the head of the combinatioa — he is president if I remember right — I have been led to believe upon good infor- mation that a combination does exist, and that he is the prime mover in that com- bination. That is how I understand it. If I had thought you were going to call me here I should have brought some more definite information upon this question. Q. What are the operations of this egg association. What are their objects as far as you know ? A. Their object as far as I can learn and understand is to keep down prices, that is to keep the price to suit themselves. Q. How do they accomplish that ? A. I learned from a friend of Mr. Wilson^s last fall. It I remember rightly it is either at Orangeville or Mount Forest that he has a branch and this man was in the County Council last fall and wo were talking about it. He said : " I am going to attend to this business for Mr. Wilson." I was asking him, and I said :*' Does he cover the whole section of the country ?" and he said: "Yes; he runs over a greater portion of it." Ho has another man attending to it now. Q. How do they regulate prices ? A. I am led to believe that they do it in thi» way : — For instance in the city of Toronto they have an agent and he keeps a stock of eggs on hand and if eggs gets scarce in the market at any time he suddenly throws a quantity on the market for that time and prevents the price from going up. I did bear about some other places but I cannot recollect it now. As I did not come here to give evidence I cannot tell, Q. The fact is then that whenever eggs get scarce they send in a quantity and pull down the price ? A. Yes; whenever a scarcity exists to keep the price at a cer- tain figure. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Wbat is the object of that ? A. I understand it in this way: if prices were allowed to go up in Toronto, when the agents went through the country to buy eggs from the farmers and their wives and daughters it would instantly raise the question with these persons who are buying for Mr. Wilson as to whether he was paying too low for the eggs as compared with the city. Q. How do they make their profit on the eggs when they buy them ? A. He ships them principally to New York and has done so for years and years. Q. And the object is to keep the prices low so as to buy for the shipping market? A. That is the way I understand it. He told me several times where all he ships to and I know he does a very large business ; certainly the largest in that section of the country. He takes in a whole section of the country and they ship immense quanti- ties. Q. I want to know the reason why they tried to depress the price ? A. Well that is it. House op Commons, Otta.wa, 9th May, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the chair. R. 0. Cartsb, of Kingston, Ont., sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Wfiat is your occupation, Mr. Carter ? A. I am manager of several branch railways and steamboat companies, and am also in the forwarding and other business. Q. You have had something to do with the coal supply of the city of Ottawa? A, Very little, sir. Q. Not as much as you wanted ? A. Well, we put a little in here last year. Q. You have heard some statements made by the Ottawa coal dealers. I nnderstood you wanted to dispute the statemonts that hal been mal e by some of them? A. Well, with reference to what particular ? 330 B. C. CARTER. Q. Mr. Butterwopth's Htatemont ? A. I might state briefly that last year we thoaght of selling coal in OLtawa and we were rather late in coming here to com- plete arrangements and I was also anxious to have some of the coal come over the Canada Atlantic. We had some other business with that road. I think word was Bent to mo by the coal association here that they would like to see me and they said that they woald take a certain portion of coal from me if 1 was satisfied lor the IMresent to wholesale it. Q Yon were making arrangements before that to retail it to the citizens of Ottawa? A. I have explained that wo were a little late in getting in, what with delays and one thing and another wo had hardly time to arrange. As I mentioned, I waited on them, I think it was at their request, and it was proposed that for the present they would take a certain portion wholesale if we would be satisfied with that at that time. Well, I made certain arrangements then and that the coal was to oome in over the Canada Atlantic. I think at that time the proposition was 7,000 tons of coal. It was understoxl, at least it was discussed, at the time that the coal would come from the Delaware and Hudson Company and 1 endeavored to arrange with the Delaware and Hudson Coal Company to take their coal as they are oonnected with the Canada Atlantic Railway, and for some reason or other, 1 really «m not aware of the reason why, I did not get it. They made several statements to the efiect that it was a lorig haul and that they were short of coal. I communicated this to Mr. Butterworth who represented the Coal Cartage Company and I told him that if they were still endeavoring to bring it from Delaware and Hudson I might not be able to get it at all and I asked him if it was not better for me ^to get it from other sources. He telegraphed me that it would defeat the object they were after. What I understood by that was that he was desirous of getting io from the Delaware And Hudson. Q. Or the Canada Atlantic ? A. What he meant was that perhaps we would not satisfy them. I do not know that that was what he meant but I think it was. I wont again to tbe Delaware and Hudson to endeavor to made an arrangement to get, coal in that way but I was unable to do so, and owing to Mr. Butterworth's tele- gram and my still looking out and endeavoring to get it from the Delaware and Hudson, it occupied a good deal of time and it became almost fall before anything eonld be done. I endeavored to see Mr. Battorworih, but he was not here* He was camping out or somethmg of that kind, and 1 saw Mr. Ray, another member of the association, and I explained to hira that 1 thought coal could be had by way of Rpnse's Point from other sources than the Delaware and Hudson at a certain figure. He had a meeting of the company called, and told me it would be ail right. I under- stood that I was to put the coal in according to the rules of the association on the other side, that should there be any strike or shortage at the mines they are not bound to supply any certain quantity. For instance, if you order 10,o all your members confine themselves to jobbing? A. Two or three are jobbers and also retailers. Q. They would be in the same position as Mr. Stark? A. Yes; the same posi- tion. If necessary, I can give their names. I do not speak at random in this matter. I have been connected with the association since its formation. I have been officially connected with it, and now president of the association, and know the working of it intimately. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You have heard Mr. Stark's statement ; is there anything you wish to con- trovert ? A. Yes ; there are some points to take up. I would be glad to explain any of the by-laws. By the Chairman : Q. Is this your constitution ? A. Yes ; that is a copy of our by-laws and consti- tution. By Mr. Wood : Q. How do you understand that clause which Mr. Stark referred to about sell- ing American movements or cases and no other? Are members of the association precluded from dealing in any other watches ? A. No, sir. Jobbers can buy watches wherever they choose. I buy watches in the States. I buy watches in Switzerland — both cases and movements. Q. How do you account for article 11 ? The Chaibman. — It reads: "It shall be deemed a violation of contract, if any of the members of this association shall purchase gold filled, silver and nickel watch cases other than manufactured by members of the American Watch Case Manufac- turers' Association and the American Watch Case Company of Toronto ; or shall purchase movements manufactured by other companies than those in co-operation with this association, or who shall sell silver cases or watch movements at lower pric-es than provided in article nine, section one, of by-laws ?" A. I may say that that by-law has exclusive reference to American cases . These so called gold filled cases are not made in this country, and at the time that was put in about buying only from the American Watch Case Company, Mr. Stark was not making cases for the trade. By the Chairman : Q. Would it be a violation of your constitution or regulations if any member of your association should commit the crime of buying watch oases from Mr. Stark ? A. Well, no ; I think not. Q. Then what is the meaning of the 11th clause ? A. We had the liberty to do 80, I think. Q. " Or shall purchase movements manufactured by other companies than those in co-operation with this association, or who shall sell silver cases or watch move- ments at lower prices than provided in article nine, section one, of by-laws." Mr, Stark S34 JOHN H. JONES. Bays thore is no other company ? A. Another is the Montreal Watch Case Com- pany, 8o far, and yet there have been cases sold to jobbers from that company. Q. What is the meaning of article 11 ? A. When this article was passed there "^was only one manafactarer in existence at the time. Q. But this is amended January, 1888 ? A. Well, we have had no knowledge that Mr. Stark was making these goods in large quantities. Q. Well, a man who swears he has twenty-nine men engaged in manufacturing, and makes 150 cases a week, should not be unknown to this association ? A. 1 did not understand him to say that he had twenty-nine men. Mr. Stark — Men and boys, hands. Mr. Jones — I have never seen any of Mr. Starii's cases until to-night. It is the first case I have ever seen of his, but I would judge they were not suitable for first class trade. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Could you enforce that penalty against any member of your association ? A* I think they would require to be in affiliation. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) ; Q. Then that clause is in active existence ? A. Yes. By Mr. McDougall {Pictou) : Q. Then that would preclude purchase from any other country? A. That is not the spirit of the by-law; it only refers to the United States and Canada. By the Chairman ; Q. It evidently refers to Canada, because it mentions the company in Toronto. Mr. Wood — It really makes exception of any factory. The wording of that by-law does not seem to be in accordance with the practice or principles of the association. The Chairman.— This was first passed in 1885. That is the date of the consti- tution. It was amended in January, i888. That is the date of this present oon- ^stitntion. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Was that the object, of securing affiliation with the American manufacturers ? A. Partly so. We were supposed to buy any watch cases that we bought in the United States from members of the association there. By the Chairman: Q. Suppose Mr. Stark wanted to join this association, what does affiliation mean ? A. By simply making a contract similar to what the American Watch Case Company have with our association. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The object ot the Americans is to exclude all foreign competition ? A. On the contrary. This American Watch Case Company is only a name. It is located in Toronto. Q. I am speaking of American manufacturers in the United States, who would desire a clause in the contract with you, so that they could get control of the trade in this country? A. It was so as to hold small jobbers who buy only from those who were in the association. Q. Do you not suppose they had a further object, by keeping out all others ? A. Not at all. I suppose there is not a jobber of any size who does not import Swiss -watches. Q. Still that by-law imposes a penalty ? A. It was not the intent of the by-law. *Ih&t point has never been raised, nor even thought of. By the Chairman : Q. Was that clause added in January, 1888? A. No; it was an old one. By Mr. Wood ; Q. Was one of the objects that the American manufacturers had in view to have their particular make of watches and movements sold in such a way that no impoei- 4;ion could be practiced ? A. They wanted their good properly marketed. WATCHES AND OASES. 335 Q. As I understand it, it would be similar to this : These manufacturers might have appointed an agent for the Dominion who would be the only one who would sell their genuine make of goods, and this association takes the place of the agent for the sale of their goods. Mr. GuiLLET. — It is when bogus goods were coming from foreign parts. Mr. Wood — Yes; but I understood Mr. Jones that they made arrangements with only those jobbers who sold their goods ? A. The American manufacturers decided that they would market their goods through jobbers only. Previously they had tried it through jobbers and retailers, making, however, a difference in favor of the jobber by giving hiin a better discount. About this time, or a little previous perhaps, to eut off all the retail trade and only do business through the jobber. This was on account of the variety of prices and the jobber not being able to get a profit, nor the retailers, by reason of the cut prices and bogus goods around the country* Q. Did that increase the price ? A. Since the formation of the association prices have steadily gone down. The watches in our country are cheaper to-day than ever before, notwithstanding the tariff being against us. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Is that in consequence of this association ? A. No ; in consequence of com- petition in the American market. Q. About what time wan the arrangement entered into by which movements and cases were required to be sold in uniform quantities ? A. This has never been established by our society* Q. That is an American action? A. Yes; entirely. Q. At the instance of your society ? A. Nothing to do with it whatever. Q. Your association met in Toronto the other day ? A. No, sir ; that statement is incorrect and untrue. The question of this telegram had been referred to the meeting and a decision come to before there was anything known aboat this injano- tion. The injunction had no force on that meeting. Q. What was the decision ? A. That we could not entertain such a law. ByMr.Guillet: Q. Is it recorded on the minutes ? A. We have the minutes at the hotel and we can produce them. We can show you the point at which the injunction was produced at the meeting just previous to their separating. That question had been dealt with and decided before there was a word known about the injunction* By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q- Then this proposition was submitted to your association by the association of American watch movement manufacturers ? A. Watch case manufacturers. By Mr. McKay : Q. You say there were imitation and bogus movements brought in ? A. Yes. Q. Did they put on the names of American movements ? A, You see on Mr. Stark's watch the name " Providence." It is a Swiss movement of the value of $1.50 to lay them down in Canada. Mr. Stark.— I will take 5,000. Mr. Jones. — That movement is stamped " Providence," and is a bogus movement. Mr. Stabk. — It is called Swiss- American. There is no factory known by the name of Providence, and what is more, no movement can pass the customs of the United States or Canada that is bogus. I say that I have not seen genuine brands imitated, and I have sold scores of movements. Q. Did they put a name, say Elgin, or Bartlett, or BUery ? A. They do it sometimes by changing a letter. For instance I have seen hundreds of movements that would be taken for Bartlett, marked Barslett — a Swiss movement. By the Chairman : Q. A bogus movement is one that purports to have the name of some known movement on it ? A. It is an imitation. Instead of Bartlett it was simply put Barzlett . Q. How do you call this " Providence " a bogus movement ? A. There is no fiuoh place as Providence in Switzerland. 336 JOHN H. JONES. Q. There is no saoh place as Ellery ? A. There is the name of a person as well as a plaoe used. Q. Is it the imitation of an American movement? A. It is done to deceive. The public honestly buy that, believing it to be an American watch, which it is not. Q. Are there any watches made in Providence ? A. No ; not in the watch trade, neither in movements nor cases. Q. How do you make that out a bo^us one ? A.I say it is done for the pur- poses of fraud. The name put on the movement is " Providence," and it is attempted to foist that upon the public as an American watch. It has the name of an Ameri- can city upon it, from which the public would believe it was an American watch. We have a great number of these sort of things. Not only such names as " Provi- dence," but ''Boston " and "Chicago." They have these names put on to lead peo- ple to believe that these are American goods. They have quite a variety of names on these fraudulent movements, because they are imported to deceive the public. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Other businesses find the same means resorted to to deceive the public, and they simply advertise the fact and warn any and everyone from selling such goods under a penalty. They do not combine. I do not think it is necessary to protect the people by combining ? A. It is necessary. To protect the public, we have formed this association partly, and a good deal in the interest of jobbers and the retail people, who are unable to get proper prices for their goods. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What are the profits now ? A. The profits between the jobbers is about five per cent. Q. Five per cent. ? A. Five per cent, between the jobbers. Q. From one jobber to another ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Between jobbers and dealers? A. I will explain to you; our l-usiness is different from that of the grocer or any other staple line of business such as this. Wholesale jewellers who do a large business are obliged to hold a very large stock. They do their business principally on the road by travellers. The cost of obtaining orders amounts to about ten per cent , so that the profit the jobber gets through the retailer is really about something in the neighborhood of 17^ per cent. Q. Gross profit? A. Gross profit By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q . Is there any regulation among the retailers ? A . There is no regulation among the retailers; they sell for what they choose. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You are at liberty to sell at retail ? A. We don't sell at retail, we sell wholesale only ; but there are some members of our association who do sell retail, bat when they do sell at retail they sell at a profit over and above the jobbers' prices, something like 2§ per cent. By the Chairman : Q. Do the jobbers agree upon a price, lower than which they shall not sell these standard watches ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. If you sell retail you bind the members of the association not to sell at less than 25 per cent, over and above the jobbers' prices? A. Yes; I would think 25 per cent, is only a small profit for the retailer to have. He is obliged to hold a large, valuable stock, and a stock that is not turned over rapidly, and therefore he is obliged to have a little more profit than a man who is selling sugar and other staple articles of that kind. By Mr. CHllmor : Q. Was your organisation formed at the instanoe of the manofaoturers in the States? A. No, sir; it was not. Q. It was voluntary? A. It was as I told you; the very beginning of it was that it was felt that something was necessary to be done among the joobers, and WATCHES AND OASES. 337 three or ftur of them, after discnesiDg this thing, came to the decision that it would be a proper thing to form an association, which was afterwards mentioned to other members of the jobbing trade, and they resolved to have a meeting to discuss the thing. It seemed to strike them in the right light to be the best plan of overcoming this diflSculty or difficulties I have mentioned, and that was the formation of the society. Q. Then, after your organization was complete, you approached the manufac- turers in the United States ? A. We aflaiiated, so to speak, with them. Q. It was at the instance of this association in Canada that that relation was formed ? A. Exactly ; and in order to give force to the thing our association agreed on this side, and the American association agreed to confine their sales only to members of this ussociation in Canada. At the time, as I told you, I believed that all the jobbers in Canada were agreeable to this association. 1 don't know of any that objected to it. By Mr. McKay : Q. This is an association of importers then ? A. Well, importers you might call them, or manufacturers. Many of the members of our association manutaoLure. Quite a number manufacture. Q. Watch cases? A. Not watch cases or movements but jewellery. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. I was going to ask whether this manufactory in Toronto is carried on by AmericanH ? A. It is carried on principally by Canadians. It is a joint stock com- pany limited. The principal man in it is a Canadian. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Does your association extend over matters in the trade outside of watches and caees? A. Nothing else, only watch cases, American watch cases and watch move- ments, but not to English watches, or Swiss watches or French watches. By the Chairman : Q. I understood you to say that the association was formed principally to keep out these bogus articles and then you tell us it does not include Swiss and European watches but only American watches? A.. I don't exclude the Swiss, if a proper irado mark is put upon the Swiss watch. We sell Swiss watches and we sell them with legitimate names on them. Q. What names? A. There are three or four different names. There is Patek. By Mr. Quillet : Q. You said you prepared a contract with Stark for the delivery of a large num- ber of these bogus ones ? A. No ; my idea is he thinks my price is wrong, but I will guarantee my price. That is the value of that movement precisely. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What effect has your association had in reducing the sale of what you say are bogus waiches in Canada. In what respect has it protected the public from the im- position they have suffered ? A. I think the retailers have almost to a man supported the jobbers in their effort to raise the standard and keep up the standard of the goods. Q. There is nothing to prevent a man now any more than formerly importing these inferior watches and selling them as a better article ? A. Nothing whatever. Q. In what respect has your organization improved this ? A. There is not the demand from the retail trade for this class of goods, but as long as the retailer could get bogas watches and sell them for the same price as the genuine ones and obtain fifty per cent, more for it, this one he would sell. Q. You have given up keeping this class of goods — these jobbers who have joined the association ? A. Largely so, I think. I think that has been the effect of it. Q. There is nothing to prevent others from doing that business where they can make 50 per cent, profit? A. Oh, no. Q. In that respect the public haven't gained so much as the association have T A. The public have gained by getting a better article at a legitimate price. Q. Still the merchant by these sinister motives will go on just as formerly ? A. I suppose, to some extent. 3—22 338 JOHN H. JONES. Q. What prevents it ? A. Nothing, only there is no demand among the retailera. By Mr. Quillet: Q. Do you restrict the retail trade from buying these movements? A. No, sir. The trade in American watches was begun in Canada about thirty years as;o when there were then not sold in Canada perhaps 100 watches in the whole Dominion. Mr. Stark had nothing to do with the introduction of American watches into Canada «8 he claim^i, DOtbing whatever. By the Chairman : Q Stark said he was only ten years in Canada himself ? A. I understood him to claim that he was instrumental in producing demands for these goods. Mr. Bain (Went worth). — The chairman is correct. 1 understood him to say he has only been ten years here. The Chairxian — Since he has been here he has spent so many hundred thou- sand dollars in business. Mr. Stark. — I have been twenty-five years in the business. By Mr Bain ( Weniworth) — addressing witness : Q. Has the sale of American watches largely increased ? A. It has largely increased iiom the hundred purchased the first year. I presume there are few job- bers now but what sell thousands per annum^ Q. Have you any idea of the gross sale of American watches in a year? A. I have only so far as we do of our own business. By the Chairman • Q. How many do you sell in a year yourself ? A. There is just a point I want to correct where Mr. Stark made a mistake. I propose to ask him to consider that thing again : if he sold as many as a dozen jobbers did together. I think we have only some 18 or 20 jobbers altogether. He says that no jobber can use $5,0U0 worth of movements. 1 tbiuk the Custom house returns will show that we use a great many more than that three fives, or four fives or five fives. Mr. Stark. — I speak of one jobber individually and not of the association . Witness. — I am a member of that association. By the Chairman : Q. I don't thinR he said any member of the association could use that ? A. I understood he said no jobber could use 65,000 worth of movements. Mr. Stark— I said he would not place a similar order with the Elgin Watch Company. By Mr Boyle (addressing witness) : Q. Was there any suggestion made by your association or any member of that, before or since, that if you dealt with the American association that they must ref'ise to sell to parties outside the association ? A. I don't quite catch your question. Q. Was there any suggestion or any arrangement made with the American as- sociation that if you dealt with them exclusively they must refuse to sell to parties who had not joined your association in Canada? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. Mr. Stark in his evidence here produced letters to show that the American association would not sell him goods because he was not in the association? A. Well, the American manufacturers will not sell to any retailers at all in Canada. They will only sell to jobbers. By the Chairman : Q. They said they were not bound to sell to anyone outside the jobbers ? A. Yes ; they are bound by their own laws, I believe, not to sell to retailers at all. They will not sell to retailers. They will only sell to jobbers both here and in the IJnited States. Tbey select out of the jobbers a number of them they think they can sell to to advantage. Q. They don't say jobbers but members of the jobbers' association. Do yoa^ agree with that that they should not sell to anybody outside of your association? A. We have no agreement of that character, you will understand that our asiociatioa is merely in sympathy with them. WATCHES AND OASSS. 339 By Mr. Boyle: Q. Was there any evidence of pressure directly, or indirectly, brought to bear on the American association to induce them to deal with your association exclusively in Canada ? A. There may have been some conversation in that direction and there may have been some correspoodence. Q. Which led to an implied agreement, no doubt ? A. No^ there has been nothing definite. Q. Suppose thoy did sell Stark, would you make no representations about it? A. I have no objection to their selling to Stark. 1 think I have once or twice solicited his custom. I would be glad to sell to Stark. Q. Of course, I am speaking of the manufacturer selling to Mr. Stark? A. Wo have no objection to that, but the manufacturers will not sell tu Mr. Stark for the simple reason that they will not sell to any retailer. By Mr. Boyle : Q. That is not the reason given in their letters ? A. That is the true reason. By the Chairman : Q. They sell to retailers in your association? A. No. Q. You said there were two or three jobbers, wholesalers and retailers both ? A. I am not aware that they sell to them direct. Because we are members of this association in Canada does not make it compulsory upon the manufacturers in the States to sell to any one jobber direct. They select from these jobbers such as they care to deal with and such as they wish to sell to. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Is there not an implied understanding between your association and the American association that you will help one another so far as you can ? A . There is nothing of that kind that I know of. By Mr. Quillet : Q. What is this article 10 ? It reads: " The members of this association are understood to agree to "sell American watch movements at the list price for Canada as decided on by the watch movement companies, and to sell gold filled, silver and nickel watch cases at prices agreed on by the American Watoh Case Manufacturers' Association and the American Watch Case Company of Toronto. The only discounts to be allowed are five per cent, for cash in thirty days, or six per cent, for cash in ten days, or three per cent, lor cash in sixty days, a note four months from date of invoice " ? A. They make the price, not us ; we mark these goods at the price they say we shall get. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Therefore they won't sell to any one outside the combination? A. It suits them better to keep to their regular legitimate jobbing trade. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How do you account for it that Stark's contract was about half executed with the Elgin Company when they declined to continue to supply these goods to Stark. Had the formation of this association anything to do with that ? A. Not that I am aware of. It need not necessarily have had anything to do with it, because if Stark should read that contract, a copy of which he has got and which every one of us have seen by which we get their goods, he would have discovered that those manu- facturers can at any momeut abrogate that contract. Q. Is it the practice for them to do that ? Have you been similarly treated in j^our business? A. I have never been treated in that way, but we have simply not got the movements. Q. Was it not a curious coincidence that they could have still delivered these movements to Stark at the time that this association was formed if there was not an understanding that that should cease ? A. There was nothing curious about that to people familiar with the watch trade. There had been a great scarcity of cheap movements. There is more demand for them than they produce^ Q. Then other customers of the Elgin Watch Company in Canada might have been served in the same way at that time ? A. Every jobber in Canada has suffered 340 MATTHEW C. SLLI8. in the same way as Stark has, becaase they haven't been able to get these move- ments. Q. Bat we should sappoee as a matter of business that they would continue to I deal fairly with their customers and give them a proportion instead of absolutely ehutting them off? In this case they stopped the supply altogether? A. I don't know what has been the cause of that. Q. Of course you would not know as being another man's bubiness, but it struck me as being a strange coincidence? A. Looking at it from my standpoint I would think nothing strange about it for the reason I have mentioned. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You think it one of these companies were to fill Stark's order that no com- plaint or remonstrance would have come from any member of your association ? A* If they filled Stark's order at jobbers' prices there certainly would be just grounds of complaint from every one of our jobbers. By Mr. Quillet ; Q. At ihe same price you buy ? A. Yes, because Stark is not a jobber. Theyi will fill his orders at ihe retail price because he is a retailer. TJie Chairman. — He swears he is a jobber. Mr. Stabk. — They supplied me as a retailer six years before this association. By Mr. Quillet: Q. Is not the ground of this offence that he has cut prices? A, That is on< ground of the offence. The ground that a good many have taken is that Stark is a' monopolist and that he desires to deal straight from the manufacturer to himself taking the jobbers' profit himself. By Mr Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. The object of tbis association, yon say, is to sustain the prices of these good» he was cutting ? A. Not so much to sustain the goods he was cutting. Others were catting. Q. It says here : " We, jobbers in American watches, hereby form an associa- tion tor the purpose of sustaining the price of American movements and cases, to> prevent the cutting down of prices," &c. ? A. There were others as well as Stark catting prices. Mr. Ellis. — I would like to make a few statements to the Committee, whicbi will only take a few minutes, and which will clear up some points. Matthbw C. Ellis, of the firm of P. W. Ellis & Co., wholesale and manufacturr^ ing jewellers, of Toronto, sworn. I By the Chairman : ^ Q, How long have you been engaged in your present business ? A. We have been engaged in business for ten years. Q. Do you know of any combinations in this business? A. Yes, sir. One combination was formed in April, 1886. The jobbers of our combination, as at pre- sent constituted, before or prior to the formation of this combination, purchased their watches direct from the manufacturers — watch cases and watch movements — and we had individual contracts with the watch movement companies, one of whom is here. I have brought a sample of the contract under which we were forced by the watch movement manufacturing companies to sell our goods at a fixed price, and under conditions which they made to us. Under the formation of our combination W6 still carried on the same fixed price ; we did not raise the price one iota, and the same contracts still existed. Mr. Stark has maintained here that he lost a consider- able sum of money by that contract, because the company had the privilege of abrogating at any moment the contract to sell all their movements to him, and to proceed to other methods of distribution. The CnAiRMAir.— After four months' notice. Mr. Stark. — Four months. WATCHES AND CASKS. 341 Witness. — The letter which Mr. Stark read was dated November last, and oar association wae formed in April ; ample time to provide for better distribution. By the Ckairman : Q. They simply said : " We cannot fill your orders ?" A. Mr. Stark knew when he signed that contract that be was liable to be cut off at four months' notice. He stated to you, gentlemen, that he was not receiving these cheap movements. I used to sell the manufactured goods of Mr Stark, and received from him these Elgin watches before I purchased direct from the company, and I did receive from Mr. Stark these said cheap movements. I am prepared to sabmit invoices for the inves- tigation of this Committee. Mr. Stark — I did not say I received no cheap movements. Mr. Ellis — He eays his grievance prior to the formation of this organization was that he was willing to sell wholesale. I have here a catalogue of which ho sends 10,000 to 30,000 direct to the farmers and merchants or dealers and the general fublic throughout the country, thus showing that he sells direct to the consumer, claim that we as wholesalers have a right to protect the retail merchants to whom we sell, and that, therefore, we have no right to sell direct to consuraere, and to the retailer's own customers. This gentleman wants to become the biggest monopolist in Canada, by getting the watches at the manofacturer's price and selling them to 4he public direct at the price which the wholesaler sells to the retailer, thus ruining the retail trade all through the country. By Mr. GuiUet : Q. I see by your by-laws you provide that you may sell to the retail trade pro- vided you charge a 25 per cent, advance? (Exhibit 9.) A. I will explain that. With reference to selling to the retail trade, of course it is understood that no jobber will sell to the retail trade, but if they do sell to the retail trade, we simply say that they have got to sell at a 25 per cent, advance. This is done in order to protect ihe merchants to whom we sell. Of course the retail merchant can sell at any profit he pleases. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Do you mean to their customers ? A. Yes. We will not allow a jobber in our association to sell to our customers at the same price that we eell to the retail merchant. Mr. Stark states to you, gentlemen, that he had a contract with the Waltham Company. I believe he never had a contract. Mr. Stark — l did not say so. Mr. Ellis — The Waltham Company refused to sell him watches, and he stated that the Waltham Company bad supplied him under contract. The Elgin Company, by their contract, will permit no one using their products to advertise to the public. He dared not put Elgin watches in his catalogue, or they would have cut him in a Tery short time. He advertised only Waltham cases. He studiously left the adver- tisements of the Elgin watches out, in order to hoodwink the Elgin Company with the ide<», that he was dropping their goods. Mr. Stark. — I described the Elgin and Waltham. The Chairman. — " Specially reduced prices for American watches, Waltham and Elgin." Mr. BoTLB. — These are simply trade differences that do not concern the Com- mittee. Mr* Ellis. — He has simply come down here to got a cheap advertisement, or as he terms it, " to stop this board of boycotters and conspirators." When we appointed our present eecretary, Edgar A. Wills, of the Board of Trade of Toronto, he wrote a personal letter to President Ince, of the Toronto Board of Trade, stating that he pro- tested, as a member, to allowing their secretary to be a secretary for a band of boy- cotters and conspirators and other terms at length, and on the following dsty he published the contents of the letter as an advertisement in the papers. There is no doubt that this gentleman is using you for the purposes of an advertising scheme. We have not put up prices in our association, but when we saw that watch move- ments could not be manufactured in this country, we, through the Manufacturera* 342 MATTHEW C. XLLIS. Association of Toronto, exerted our infiueDce on the Government to reduce the tariff from 20 to 10 per cent. I myself was one of a deputation to New York to get a special export rate for Canada, or the privilege of getting live percent, less than any » United States purchaser could get, and was successful in that deputation. By thatfl means, on account of the reduction of 10 per cent, in the duty and this five per cent^ which we could get in the States, we are to-day able to mark the American watch within five per cent, of the price charged in the United States. Our association took hold of the American Watch Company in Toronto, and in order to advertise the "Watch Case Company, ^^e, as jobbers, agreed to purchase our cases from that com- pany, which heretofore had been a failure. That company has grown to-day to be an immense concern, manufacturing almost sufficient watch cases for the entire con- sumption of 31 jobbers who are on our list, at prices within the reach of every whole- sale dealer from Halifax to Victoria, B.C., with but one or two insignificant exceptions. Our association will accept any man that applies for admission to the association when he agrees not to sell to the consumer, but to sell as ho ought to legitimately, and as every wholesale man ought to, viz., to sell direct to the retail trade, ard not direct to the retail trade's customers. This American Watch Case Company of Tor- onto have been successful in producing cases which are fully equal to those manufac- tured in the United Slates, and are to-day selling their ca-es at a less price than is charged in the United Stales. We have here a price list which shows that the fact is now in existence that our association carries out the principle which I told you by fixing, with the price charged and the duty added, upon the same profit as the American watch companies. We have the 3-cz. cai?e at ^6.25 ; that is the price of the American case laid down here, duty added. We sell a 3-oz. ease for $4.50 ; this 94 50 case is a class of goods not now made in the States, and in order that there may be no misunderstanding there is still another case made which is the exact counter- part of the caee which I have quoted to you, for $1.95, or 45 cents more. That is a still better cai-e. By Mr. Guillet : Q. That 18 the American price ? A. It is made by the American Watch Case Company of Toronto. The American case would sell at $6.25. Mr. Stark made ^ the statement to you that we had come to this city for the purpose of eliciting evidence by which we could convict some of our jobbers. 1 beg to state, gentlemen, that the first idea we had of coming to Ottawa was when we t^aw in the papers that Mr. Charles Stark would appear before the Select Committee on Trade Combinations, and we folt that we had a right to come down here and state to you, gentlemen, our side of the ca^e, so th:ut you could hear both sides, and form your opinion upon it. We have come without being f-ummoned, to cheerfully give every information bear- ing upon our organization. Our association is not formed for the purpose of restrict- ing either ihe product or the number of wholesale merchants which are doing business in Canada. We are open to accept any man appl^ ing for membership into our association. I may here state, the watch movement and watch case companies do not to-day sell to the jobbers on our association list, which number 31. The Elgin Watch Company, which Mr. Stark hai referred to, and of which I have spoken in regard to the contract, only sell to five men in Canada. 'J hey reserve the right of selling to whom they choose, but we have an arrangement by which those five men who receive ibe Elgin watches will pell to each jobber in the association those goods at a profit of five per cent, and the same will apply to all other watch case and watch movement companies. By the Chairman : Q. Are they compelled to sell them at five per cent, or at least five per cent. ? A. ^i least five per cent. Q. Bat they may charge ten per cent ? A. No, sir. We cannot do that, because we have to sell at five per cent., and that is imposed upon us not by our own wish but by the watch movement companies themselves. I may say that the by-laws that we have here are tbo basis of the restrictions and the conuitions under which WATCHK8 AND CASES. 343 we can sell and purchase watcLes from these companies. And these conditions are made compulsory to handle the goods of these various manufacturers. Q. But how do you know men's honesty in that matter? What means do you take, then ? A. To what do you refer ? Q. To article H, which reads thus : *' Where any two members of this associa- tion shall make any charge in writing against a member of viol iting the constitution, by-laws or rules of the association, it shall be the duty of the board of directors to require from the accused the denial in writing at statutory declaration, or other mode in legal form or an assent to the same m writing, and in the event of the accased member refusing or neglecting to give such verified written denial or assent to the charge for the space of HO days after the said request for the earoe, it will be assumed as an acknowledgment of the correctness of the charge made, and the member so found to have violated the constitution, rules, or by-laws as aloresaid, shall be deemed in default, and it shall therefore be the duty of the directors to suspend or expel him from the association, and such expelled member shall forfeit all claims on any funds of ihe association?" A. I am very glad, Mr. Chairman, that you called my attention to that, in order that I may most emphatically contradict a statement which has been made. I have been the secretary of the association for the past year and connected with the executive. Mr. Stark states that our association has called upon one of our association to make oath that he has sold a watch movement under the price. I state positively that that by-law has never been used against any member of our association since its formation ; that we have never called upon any of its members to make oath, and I am able to state ihat positively, as I was the secretary, and am to- day the trea'-urer of that association, I made that assertion from the report. By iVJr Guillet : Q. The by-law gives you that power, to take statutory declaration ? A. I will state nothing on the report but what I know. The bylaw does give us that power. ■ By the Chairman : Q. The power to impose a fine of $500 as well as to expel the member? (Exhibit ^a—Art. 9 ) A. We have had a legal cpinion to the effect that it is not collect able. Q. The by-law reads: — "Bach and every member of the association convicted of a violation of the constitution or bylaws, shall forfeit to the association the suna of f500 and shall be expelled from membership ? " A. That is just bearing out tbo very thing which I said to you. If you will read the contract (Exhibit 10) and I will leave it here, you will see that these conditions are jubt as virtually held upon the various j:)bber8 individually as we now hold collectively. The very contract had the object of adhering to these prices. The main point is this, there has been no combine. We sell watch movements at the very same prices as previous to the asBOCiation being formed, and if there is a reduction as to price — and these reduc- tions are always made by the manufacturers of watch movements and cases them- selves — or it they choose to raise them, we are immediately to notify the trade with- in 48 hours, that such and such a reduction has taken place, and no matter what reduction is made, our profit remains the same. The notice of these changes i& given to the retail trade very promptly. By Mr. Wood : Q Suppose your combination or association was broken up in some way? A. If our association were broken up thene companies would then make individual con- tracts with the jobbers, and we would be selling under the same arrangement as we are to-day. There would be no difference whatever. The Elgin Company's ascent told me that the combination through some little misunderstanding, at one time, might possibly have broken up. He told rae that if it had broken up, they would still retain individual contracts with those whom they saw fit to sell to. By Mr. Bain ( Wentioorth) : Q. There is juit one matter incidental to this. I think you said you were a party to making arrangements with American watch /manufacturers by which you 344 JOHN SBDawORTH. get a special allowance of 5 per cent, on the Canadian trade, and that enabled you to «ell at a lower rate here? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did that aflFeot your Castom bouse valuation ? A. Our invoices are made out to meet that. For instance this special cut of 5 per cent is marked '* special 5," and I will pay on the amount before that is taken oflf, so that when we give a reduction of 5 per cent, we actually give that on the duty as well, and it amounts to more than 5 per cent., we lose that. Q. I know that in other lines the Customs had been in the habit of fixing their own valuation ? A. We have to pass all our goods on the American list prices ? Q. ^Notwithstanding that, you get this 5 per cent, off ? They collect Cusoms on that ? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Is the influence of your association to prevent in any way the Americaa manufacturers from selling to parties outside of your association ; that is those who Are not in the guild ? A. We have never had occasion to exert that influence. By Mr. tiuillet : Q. Did you give them a list of those who belonged to this association ? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Do ihey soli to all ? A. No ; only to those whom they choose. Q Does this cut of the American association in no sense express or imply apart of your object ? A. No. We have a list of jobbers. We furnish that list of jobbers to the American association, and they may select from that list of jobbers those whom they may choose to sell to. The manufacturers in the States affiliate with us. If they were to sell outside, it would simply break up the whole thing, as they agree only to sell to members of the American and Canadian association, such as they desire. By Mr. GuiOet : Q. Tbey might instruct you not to sell to some particular jobber, whom they 4o not desire to do business with. " Any name which may hereafter be stricken from the list," &o. ? A. That is our ontract in 1884, prior to the combination. By the Chairman : Q. Is that the contract you have to sign ? A. We have not got to sign this contract since the formation of this association. It is unnecessary. It would break tip the individual ones, because the association is supposed to carry out these things. As far as Mr. Stark is concerned, we would be quite willing to admit him to the association if he would sell his goods as a jobber ; but we decidedly object that he should get goods at the same prices as we obtain them at, and sell them to the retail oonsumer. John Sbdq worth, of Toronto: In the statement which Mr. Stark made, I believe he mentioned the name of the Elgin Watch Company, and that statement may be published and sent thronghout the country, and leave a wrong impression. This statement is made by him as a general statement, not from his own knowledge, but something he has heard persons say and read. This statement I read myself in one of the American publications. Here the witness waoy control the supply? A. Yes. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. How can you protect your interests here? By combining on this side, by this association ? A. Well, our association had organized previous to the syndicate. 7hJit is previous to the syndicate which I spoke about, the New Yoi k syndicate. The advanced prices which you mentioned were due entirely to the corner being made on fi'^ue by that syndicate. Bi/ Mr. McKay : Q. Did you buy your raw material from this syndicate ? A^ In reply to that — loan hardly answer that question in a direct manner. The raw material is dis- poeed of entirely through brokers. We can never tell who owns a cargo of hemp on its pasf age from its point of growth to its destination. The syndicate controls the entire amount of fibre, but if there is enquiry from an outside source from the fibre merchants you are given a quotation but you cannot tell who owns the fibre jon are purchasing. You buy it through other sources. Q. You buy from the United Stales? A. Sometimes we do; the syndicate has representatives in London and Liverpool as well as in Now York. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Bututo leaving the American and English trade — yon stated that this syndicate wore coucentrating their operations with a view of quoting low prices for BINDER I WINE, ETC. 341 furnishing goods to crush oat the opposition here ? A. As well as their rivals in the United States. Q. The English prices were comparatively higher than in the United States ? A. Eelatively than they are in the United States. Q. Were their relative prices formerly such as would lead any cordage or binder twine to be sent from the American market to England ? A. I don't know of any twine having been exported to the English market, it is exported to Australia and other foreign points. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The tffect of this syndicate has been felt on the prices in Canada as well aa in the United States ? A, It has had the result of enhancing the prices of fibre so much that many of the binder twine purchasers like Mr. Massey, whose requirements would be 400 or 500 tons of twine in a year — the result has been that this syndicate has caused sisal to rank as high in value as pure manilla and before the formation of the syndicate sisal was sold on its merits and the distinction in point of value wa* that it ranged from 2^ to 4 cents a pound. The large manufacturers last year ex- perimenting with the fibre suitable for the manufacture of binder twine discovered that sisal could be manufactured into binder or reaper twine and give almost as good satisfaction as pure manilla and they put a large quantity on the market last year. In making a corner they undertook to take care of all the sisal that came in and the c^yndicate kept amongst themselves the surplus quantity of sisal and the price of sisal for the past two or three months has been precisely the same as the best pure manilla although the etrength of sisal compared with manilla would be 5 to 7. The binder manufacturers of ihe United States are willing to use sisal binder twine so long as they can get it especially lower than manilla. The syndicate are in a position to quote sisal binder twine becaueo they kept that fibre ofl the market and they didn't pay the pi ice of manilla. Those in the United States who want cordage or rope manufactured of manilla fibre without sisal can feel certain that what they get does not contain a bit of pure manilla fibre. The result has been in Canada that nearly all the reaper twine that will be put on the market this year will be pure manilla binder twine, while 75 per cent, or perhaps more of the binder twine put on the American market will be sisal binder twine, for the simple reason that the manufac- turers must manufacture that into something'. The wholesale jobbers and dealers will always declare that sisal is equally as good as manilla would be for binder twine. By the Chairman : Q. Can you tell by the appearance of it ? A. Oh, yes ; I could easily tell. Q. Can the general public tell ? A. That is a difficult question to answer. They have a process of coloring sisal. 1 know a certain sisal binder twine sold last season in Canada which was called Eureka binder twine. The people thought in some in- stances they were gettirg pure manilla binder twine, sisal beitg only a whiter fibre than manilla, but this tital was colored to resemble pure manilla very largely and many people thought they were getting manilla binder twine when it was only colored si^al. By Mr. Gilimor : Q Is bisal heavier than manilla? A. Heretofore all sisal they would spin 550 feet to the pound and bear the necessary tensile strength, while manilla has been spun from b'50 to 675 feet to the pound. Last year they have increased the length of sisal binder twine to 570 and 600 feet to the pound and in some machines be sufficiently strong to do the work. You will remember that all machines do not always do the same ; some have some strain upon the twine. There are some machines which are easier on the binder twine than others. I am notsufficiently familiar with the construction of a binder reaper to explain exactly how it is that the strain of one machine is less than the strain on another machine. By Mr. Gilimor : Q. Does this combination in Canada have a nniform price? A. Those of us have our prices ; of course we have a uniform rate of prices. -348 JOHN CONNOR. Q. There were none of these manafacturers that entered into this arrangement that stopped manufacturing ? A. Closed their factories up? Q. Yes ? A. No, none of them. It is merely ^an arrangement whereby each manufacturer is permitted to manufacture what he pleases and sell to whom he pleases in conformity with the prices arranged upon, but any one manufacturer ex- ceeding the percentage allotted to him he must pay into the fund of the associatioD a certain tax or penalty if he exceeds his percentage. Q. Each manufacturer is assigned a certain percentage ? A. There are five manufacturers in the association for Canada. Suppose each manufacturer gets 20 per cent, of the business, just for rough calculation. At the end of the month the returns are made up and computed and gone into by the supervisor of the association whose duty it is to examine the returns. It may happen that during that month I have done 25 per cent. When the returns are computed my totals represent pro- bably 25 per cent, of the aggregate business done by the five manufacturers instead of 20 per cent. I pay on my excessive business to those who have fallen short and they draw out what I have paid in. The object is as much as possible to prevent a surplus being placed upon the market preventing over production. If the whole factories ran their whole capacity it would supply more cordage and twine than the country could take care of. By the Chairman : Q. Suppose all the factories ran to their full capacity how much more could they take? A. I have no doubt in saying that if all the factories in Canada were run to their capacity thut they could supply double the quantity the country re- quired. Q. Your organization is to prevent over production ? A. It would result in a general slaughter if there was not an understanding. By Mr, Landry : Q, That has been the result in the United States ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Are there a lot of other manufacturers besides these five in Canada? A. There a)e several, but with the exception of one they are small concerns, but they «re capable ot making all classes of cordage. There is one factory in Brantford that devotes its manufacture entirely to binder or reaper twine. It is not affiliated with the association. Q. Does it produce a large proportion of the binder twine of the country? A. Oh, a reasonable quantity. It has a capacity of producing 20 per cent, of the binder twine. Q. I understand your association sell the products at the same prices ? A. The members of our association have a uniform arrangement. Q. Does that Brantford Cjmpany come into competition with you. A. Yea. Q. Is it of sufficient importance to affect your prices. A. I think it is. Q. You said a little while ago this syndicate in the United States had affected prices there; basic influenced prices in Canada? A. I don't hesitate to say if it wasn't for the protection placed on binder twine, that so far as the Canadian twine manufacturers are concerned, they would be in the same demoralized state as the Ameriaan binder twine m-inufacturors. I do not hesitate to say that we could not make any quantity of goods at all, because with a surplus that they have, and which they will put on the Canadian markets, and they would be prepared to slaughter it And slaughter the twine manufacturers of Canada so long as we had to buy oar material at prices fixed since the corner was made upon it. Q. They would cut prices down? A. Yes. Q. Is it a fact that in the United Slates binder twine and other products of your business are sold cheaper than they are in Canada? A. Not in the States, but these manufacturers have outside quotaiior.s, and quote at v6ry low prices. Following up this theme, I may remark to you that I am positive that the farmers of the United States every year, including last year, have paid very much more for binder twine than farmers in Canada have been paying for binder twine, since the twine mana- BINDXR TWINS, STO. 349* facturers have declined to give implement manufacturers the exclusive distribution of this twine. There was a time in Canada when manufacturers of the binders, that is the self-binders, Mr. Massey's concern, Harris' concern in Braniford, and two or three other leading concerns, compelled the twine manufacturers to sell their twin© entirely through them. At one time the implement manufacturers had an association to regulate a uniform price of self-binders, and it is only about three years ago that we commenced to manufacture binder twine . They had an association and they stipulated that the twine manufacturers of Canada then — they stipulated that all the binder twin© manufactured in Canada— would pass through them, and the result was that any person wanting binder twine could only obtain it through the manufacturers of the agricul^ tural implements. I think the manufacturers of the agricultural implements in these days had a very high profit on binder twine and the farmers paid a pretty high price for the twine they used then. Three years ago a little friction arose amongst the twine manufacturers as to allowing the agricultural implement men to control and distribute this binder twine. It arose in this way : Three years ago our firm was prepared to enter the maiket and wanted a share of the binder twine business in th© west. I think Mr. Cochrane was vice-president. However, I came to the west her© and I found that there was an understanding between the other twine manufacturers who had started at this business previously and the association, and 1 found it was almost absolutely impossible for them to give me a share of the business. It was almost impossible for me to get in there. Mr. Massey's concern and the Harris & Son firm, of Brantford, had jointly agreed with others to get their entire require- ments from a Dartmouth concern and a Montreal concern. I think that was then the condition of affairs. I succeeded, however, after a great deal of difficulty, in getting a small order from Mr. Massey's concern and a few others, and I know that I didn't put very much twine upon the market that year, but the next year when our association met we decided that it would not be in the interests of the binder twin© manufacturers or in the interests of the country to allow Mr. Maseey and A. Harri»^ Son & Company, of Brantford, and two or three extensive reaper manufacturers to control the binder twine businet-s, and we then agreed upon a price to be given to wholesale hardware merchants for certain quantities whereby they were enabled to reach the smaller class of dealers throughout the country. That decision was arrived at a little over two years ago, and ever since this we have been subject at the hands of these agricultural implement men to special attacks at different times and special criticism. The result is that eioce that was arrived at the farmer has derived th© advantage, because when it came to the wholesale hardware man it was in turn dis- pensed and circulated to the small dealers in every part of the country and the result was that binder twine was brought within an easy reach, and the farmer who used the twine was not depending entirely upon the agent of the agricultural implement maker to supply him with this twine. Q. How do your profits compare with two or three years ago ? A. I think it is about the same. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Did you make any arrangement with the jobber as to what he should sell at ? A. No, sir ; the wholesale and retail men could sell it at just what they pleased. Th© twine manufacturer didn't want to sell any smaller quantity than a carload. They have their ten-ton price and then they have their fifty ton price, which is one cent a pound less than the ten-ton price. Then there is a certain amount handled in large quantities in Canada in which they want to make an additional discount. By the Chairman : Q. The 10-ton man can buy it at a cent a pound more than the 50 ton man, but it very often happens that the wholesale hardware house places an order at 50 tons, and he will sell a car load of twine at one and a quarter or one and one half advance per pound so that the wholesale man actually becomes a competitor at once with the manufacturer. By Mr. Landry : Q. You don't object to that? A. No, sir. 360 JOHN COWNOR. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. I onderstand you to say that binder twine is cheaper in the United States than it is here i' A. I don't know about the price of binder twine for consumption. 1 can tell you that binder twine for consumption in the United States is fully as high if not higher than the binder twine in Canada, but the quotation of American binder twine for consumption in Canada is very much lower than the prices exacted upon their own people. Q. You mean to say if the duties for the manufacturer is not added upon the binder twine here, it is of no advantage to keep the article out of the market, and they are absolutely selling it in Canada as cheap as in the States ? A. I think that for the past five years I can prove that the price has been very much lower in Cana- da than it has been in the United States. Q. Does the same apply for cordage ? A. Yes. Q. Does the same apply for cordage tor lath ties? A. Yes. Q. What is the price of lath ties in the States now, what is the price in Boston ? A. I cannot speak as to an absolute certainty, but so far as my memory will serve me I think manilla lath ties cannot be bought in Bdston any lower than 1 L cents a pound. Q. What is your price ? A. lOf cent?. Q. What is the duty on lath ties for instance? A. In the general acceptance of the term 1 don't know whether it comes under this class or not ; under the class of cordage it is 14 cents specific and 10 cents ad valorem. That would depend upon the value of the fibre. Q. As an average would it equal a protective'duty of 25 per cent, or 30 per cent. ? A. I don't hardly think it would be quite that. Q. I have been informed that lath ties during the summer and fall can be pur- <}hased at eight and one-sixteenth in Boston, and for the same article here the charge was ten and one-half? A. I can understand a quotation of that kind that was circulated dni'ing the summer at a time when fibre was low before the syndicate cleaned the market out. I can understand a particular manufacturer in the United States having a quantity of lath yarns would be in a position to quote the price you mention. By Mr. Landry : Q. For home consumption ? A. Yes, for anywhere previous to the formation of the syndicate; they could be quoted pretty lowif a manufacturer happened to have a pretty good supply. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You manufacture lath ties. A great deal used about St. John ? A. Not a great deal. Q. It is produced largely ? A. That depends upon a man's idea of quantity. You can ascertain the quantity, a pound of lath ties will bind 3,000 laths, su it is an easy matter to determine the quantity of tons the province will require. I think probably the requirements of the province would not exceed between 40 and 50 tons altogether. By Mr. Landry : Q. What is it worth? A. It is worth ten and three quarter cents a pound, that is $215 a ton, or the whole requirements of the province costing about $9,000 or $10,000. By Air. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. How many feet to the pound ? A. It is a certain fact that American lath ties quoted at 8^ cents would be more expensive than Canadian quoted at 12 cents. I have found that American lath ties would not bind up more than 1,500 to 1,750 laths to the pound, not having more than 30 to 60 strings to the pound, while Canadian lath ties are 80 strings to the pound . We have made lath ties capable of tieing up 4,000 to the pound. Q. Regarding the quantity of lath ties used, I have a letter here saying that 100 tons of lath ties are used in St. John e^ry year ? A. That person would not undor- fltand the nature of the subject he has undertaken to enlighten you upon, ]l£r. Gillm^or. BINDER TWINEi STC. 35t Q. Do you know Mr. Warner there ? A. Yea ; John Warner, he knew very little aboat the lamber basiness. I know he has had some year or two experience in the lumber business there. He boaght a tie of just the character of which I Bpok& &boat, this heavy tie ; this year I took his order and I find that he preferred our ties. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q What is your quotation rbr the same grade ? A. We are not making any sieal iwine now, for the reason that theie is a poor market and the Americans are making it. Q. Your twine is about 75 feet longer ? A. I think our binder twine will rant irom 675 to 700 feet. By the Chairman : Q. There is ZO per cent, or a little more difference in the strength ? A. Yes. I will give yon quotations for pure manilla. i3J for car load lots and 12|^ for 50 ton lots. That represents delivery in any part of Ontario east of Owen Sound and that is freight paid lo any part of Ontario, and from that there is a discount of five per cent, lor cash. Any deliveries on orders taken previous to the fiist of June the pur- chaeer will be allowed a rabate of interest not exceeding 7 per cent, per annum. The first of June is considered the due date of twine as the season is at an end when persons will not want it. So persons buying it previous to June are allowed a re- bate of 7 per cent, besides receiving 5 per cent, discount, the terms on binding twine this year being 15 days. Q. How does the price of raw material compare with last year ? A. The raw material is higher in consequence of what I told you. Q. How much higher is raw material ? A. To give you an idea, spot manilla ia quoted to-day in England at £42 per ton and last year just before the syndicate was formed it coo Id have been bought at from £io to £^5 lOs. per ton. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. How long has your combination been formed? A. Our association has been in organization since November, it)84, and everything went fairly satisfactory alon^ until some time last May, when it dissolved by a general break up, and then I think, in the middle of August it was reorganized. During the break there was pretty bitter competition, and Mr. Massey, who has had some experience in binder twine, will know that that was at the season when farmers were ready to take the delivery of twine, and it did not affect the consumer, while we were all slaughtering against each other. Q. How do you account for that? A. Only in this way, when the break -occurred, of course every person was anxious to sell what they could and make as large sales &6 possible, but they had to do it ata price agreed upon between the manu- facturer or seller and the wholesale buyer. As the consumer does not deal through, the manufacturer but generally through the middle man, whenever a decline of prices took place it simply resulted in a benefit to the middle man or broker. Q. He kept up his prices on the consumer ? A. Yes. Q. You say your association all sell at the same price. Have yon any rules about buying, or does every one buy where he can ? A. To the best possible advantage. Each manufacturer is allowed to put an order in any portion ot the country. He is. not confined to any particular territory. Q. Am I right in inferring from your remarks that the difference between the €06t of the raw and manufactured article has not been affected by this association? A. Yes; that is to say the formation of our association has not had the effect erf increasing the price to the consumer. Q. The manufacturer's profits depecd on the difference between what he pays for the raw material and what he sells the finished goods for. Do you have a larger difference now as the result of this association ? Is there an understanding between you that there shall be a larger margin between the cost of the raw and the manu- factured article ? A, The net margin of profit would be no larger than before the association was formed. The association has had the effect of steadying the trade. 352 JOHN CONNOR. Q. Ton have said before that it was to control the production and not th& price? A. Yes; but there is an understanding as to price, so that there will be a oiuiform quotation. The margin however is not greater. Q. Do you get any larger profits as the result of this association in saving ex- penses ? A. Yes ; I think that is probablj" where an advantage would come in f roncb there being an undorstatiding among the majority ot the manufacturers. Each manufacturer can gauge pretty accurately about the quantity which would make up- this percentage of goods and he can regulate his factory so as to produce the quantity to the best possible advantage, and he having almost a guarantee or certainty that these goods will move off in a giving period can make a greater profit. Then again this has increased and improved the standard of the Canadian article. We hav©^ conferences from time to time in regard to the quality, and we have no hesitation in declaring that the average quality to-day is superior to the American product. By the Chairman : Q Even American manilla ? A. Including the sisal. It is equal in every respect to the average American. There are some special manufacturers in the United States who make a very nice article and whose productions will compare with our best, but the average Canadian production is superior to the average American production. By Mr. JVood ( Westmoreland) : Q. One of the results of your association has been to raise the standard o# quality ? A. That is indisputable. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Can you speak of the production outside of that combination ? A. As far ■as outside production is concerned I think that in order for them to do any businesa^ at all or make any sales of any magnitude they must maintain a pretty respectable standard of the finished product, but as I have not seen any of the finished product
    moath Rope Work Company which is an extensive one. BINDEE TWINB, ETC. 365 Q. Any in Quebec? A. There is in Montreal ; there are two there and several small people. Bight in the city of Qaebec I do not think there are any. Q. For my own personal information, do you say that you can command the market and fix the price of the country ? A.I can. Do you mean to say are we sufl&ciently strong to control the market ? I do not know that we do. So far as we five are concerned we may to a great extent. By the Chairman : Q. I think we are indebted to Mr. Connors for giving a history of this matter, as he has enlightened us very fully ? A. While I have given you considerable in- formaiion, there are a great mnny points I have not touched upon, so with your per- mission I will bo pleased to remain while Mr. Biassey is giving his evidence. The only point I might be able to give you information upon would be something that may have escaped my notice and would be suggested by somebody else. Mr. H. A.. Masset, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation? A. I am President of the Massey Manutacturing CJompany of Toronto. Our business is that of manufacturing agricultural imple- ments, and has been for about forty years. Q. Are there any particular points that you would wish to speak on arising out of the evidence of Mr. Connors? A. If there are any questions, or if you would prefer me making a general statement in regard to the price of twine, afcd how it compares with American prices of any line that they wish me to refer to, I should be pleased to do po. By Mr. Landry : Q. Is there anything in Mr. Connore' statement that you would wish to combat? A. I think there are several things that Mr. Connors must have been under some misapprehension with respect thereto, especially in regard to the farmer getting the twine now as low as some years ago. We have some means of knowing that they sre now paying 16 cents per pound while they paid but 13 a few years ago for the same twine. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Are you aware of any difference in the price of raw material ? A. I know raw material has advanced. Q. How much ? A. I am not prepared to give exact quotations for manilla, nor the price at which it was purchased last fall. That is the point I thought Mr. Connors ought to have given you, and not what it was bought for two years ago, and then it would be easy to see what their profits are. Mr. Connors says there are no more than two years ago. Tbey sold twine two years ago for 9h cents per pound, and you have heard his quotations for now. By Mr. Guiltet: Q. Do you know they were selling it at 15 cents last year, retail ? A. No, sir ; it was sold last year at from 13 to 14 cents. By the Chairman : Q. That quality was 9J cents a pound ? A. It was pure manilla ; sisal wa» considered as a mixture half and half with pure manilla, and at that time we used a mixtni e. Q. What did you sell it then for ? A. It goes into different hands; we give it to the agents at a cent per pound profit, and the agents get a cent more when they sell to the farmers as their profit. So that it went to the farmers at about 13 cents. Half the time they probably got 14 cents. Q. Do you know the difference between the raw material then and now as to price ? A. I do not know positively. I did not understand Mr. Connor to give the difference between the price of raw material two years ago and last fall. He said it is quoted at £25 last fall and now £12 in England. That is a vast difference whea 3—23 354 H. A. MA.SSET. you take into consideration what it was last year in England and now, We want the comparative prices in Nova Scotia or the prices which they paid at the given time when they buy their stock each year, and then you would have some oppor- tunity of judgina: what their profits are. Q. What did you pay for twine four years ago before this combination was formed ? A. 1 cannot tell back as far as four years ago. This of course is sprung upon me, although I bad some figures in coming down on some business with the Ocvernment, because we considered it was a grievance and an injury to the public in this combination, putting prices on the twine, by which the farmer has to pay so much more in proportion to the cost of raw material than he had two or three years ago ; and also so much greater than what we can bay it for in the American market. We can buy the same material that is sold here, the same finished twine, from the Americans, paying a duty of $l,79f per 100 pounds, cheaper than we can buy it in Canada. On ttiat we pay the duty. Q. Are you buying in Canada? A. Yes; because we prefer patronising the home market if we can. But we say it is an injustice to the public when a combina tion is formed that will put up the price beyond what they are warranted in doing in view of the cost of the raw material. Combinations are an injury when they exact extortionate prices from the consumer. By Mr. Fisher: Q, Have you any figures to show that profits are greater now than before this combination was formed ? A. I have not the figures of raw material, but I can tell you what ye bought for before this combination was formed. We bought pure manilla for 10 cents a pound two years ago. We had our percentage oflf that. Q. Last year you paid what ? A. I cannot give the figures of last year. Q. Two years ago you bought pure manilla for 10 cents and paid 9^ cents for half and half, that is haif sisal ? A. Tes. Q. Since the combination has come you paid 12^ by the quantity? A. Large quaniityi Q. Have you any information with regard to the relative prices of raw material ? A. It is not anything near in comparison with that. 1 cannot give you the figures, but they can easily be obtained. I think Mr. Stairs, of the Barmouth works, could give you all the information. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. What is your complaint? A. I believe in allowing raw material to come into the country. Q. But if you can buy elsewhere outside of this combination at %i cheaper rate, what would be your complaint? A. I say that they have that advantage, that they get the raw material free and we have to pay the duty on the cord, which they get the benefit of on the cord. Q. If you can buy elsewhere and get a better bargain, what is your complaint ? If you are obliged from the combination that would be a different thing ? A. I say we can buy it and lay it down cheaper than we can get it from the Canadians after ?aying the duty ; but then the difference is so small. I will give you the figures, 'he Canadian price for pure manilla delivered in not less than 50 ton lots is $1:^.50, and then there is a 5 per cent, discount in 15 days off that, which brings it net 911.87^. I do not see any advantage in the rebate because the twine is not used until July and August. The American quotation is S 11.50 less 1^ discount. That is, $ll.b2f net. Freight 25 cents, total $ ll.57f as against 91 1.87^. Take the duty from this, the duty of 1^ cents per pound on the raw material paid by the American manufacturer, which is not paid by the Canadian, and it brings it down to 10^ cents per pound. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That is the price to you ? A. It would be the difference as between $11.57 4md 111.87. By the Chairman : Q. Then you pay the duty after that? A. Yes. BINDER TWINK, ETO. 355 Q. Then the American would be a good deal dearer ? A. Yes ; when the duty is paid. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. We understand you to say that you paid Canadian manufacturers 30 cents per pound more than you would have to pay the American ? A. Yes ; but there is the duty. By Mr . Bain ( WeniwortK) : Q. What is the actual cost, including the duty, of the American article ? A. We had to import a large quantity for the North- West last year. We could not get it in Canada. We laid it down in Afanitoba at about the price we had to pay in Nova Scotia, and duty added. It cost us about the duty extra. The ground of complaint is that althoui^h the Americans are paying a duty on it, they can afford to offer it to us at less than the Canadian figures. I have been in correspondence with large dealers and they tell us they have been buying it at the same rates as those who soil to us. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Are there any of this sort of goods manufactured in England ? A. There is some ; but they manufacture other kinds of material into cord which they think answer as well, and it is a great deal cheaper. It is gut. We have imported that, but it does not do as well in this country. It answers a very good purpose, however, and can be sold a good deal cheaper. Then there is a point in regard to what Mr. Connor said as to allowing others to handle the twine. We find that unless we keep the twine, ihe farmers would be without it at the proper season of the year ; that the hardware men would only keep it to suit their convenience, and we stated to the manufacturers : " If we keep twine we will be bound to supply our customers in any event, and we will keep enough ; otherwise we will let the hardware men keep it." We have never made more than ten per cent, on twine, and we have had to advance the money three, four or six months. So we have never made much ; but we are obliged to bave it to sell our machines. The agents make more. By Mr. Ghiillet : Q. What is the date of this quotation ? A. It is quite recent. It is a memo- randum I took from our books. By the Chairman : Q. Are your profits on twine as large as several years ago ? A. We are obliged to buy twine for our customers with the prospect of not making anything on it ; the prospect even of losing, for the reason that the Brantford company are makiug twine and sending it out to the farmers with the profit they are selling to manufac- turers. They eell it at 12^, whereas we are selling it at 13 J. Our demand this year would run nearly 600 tons of twine ; but we have to have it. By Mr. Bain ( WeniwortK) : Q. As business grows you will go out of the twine business? A. We cannot; ^e warrant our machines. If they go and get inferior twine it might interfere with the machine, and we must know what is in it. How is it if there is so little profit on the twine, we can buy it for exporting out of the country for about a cent a pound less than what we can get it in the country for ? We have an order placed for twine that will go over a cent per pound to go out of the country cheaper than we can get it in. By the Chairman : Q. You heard Mr. Connor's evidence to the effect that they had machinery to produce doable the amount of the consumption of the country, and they could make a surplus cheaper ? A. That is a poor rule. By Mr. Fisher : Q. The same people who supply you with twine are the same who will send it out of the country ? A. We have large orders going to England, Australia and South America. 3— 23i 356 H. A. MASSKY. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of fact, you sell your implements cheaper when you send them] abroad than when you sell in the home market? A. We can ; but it costs more tol send it away. Q. But taking oflF the cost of delivery ; do you make a net profit larger on what you send to the country than outside of it? A. Decidedly. In conbequence of| American competition we cannot get a price that would pay us in Canada. Q. You are doing the same thing as the rope manufacturers ? A. I think it| can be bought in the States just as cheap as here. The Brantford men are not in thol combination, and the result is we are putting up a plant to manufacture our owal cord. We must have a protective tariff, and I am perfectly willing that the twind^| men shall have protection ; but I do not want them to make two profits . Q. What are the Brantford men quoting at ? A. To the farmer at 13 and 14| cents. They do not wholesale ; they sell to their customers. They say to men in^ the North- West : " You buy our twine and we will sell you a machine. If you do^ not boy our twine, we will not sell our machines." Q. Are the Harris & Son implement makers there ? A. Yes. Q. Is the twine works controlled by them ? A. Yes; partly by them. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Mr. Connor said that they had a capacity of making 20 per cent. ofth& country's requirements? A. No; they could not make more than 500 tons, which would be probably what they would require for their own business. Q. What would be the requirements of the country ? A. There are over 3,000 . tons required. By the Chairman : Q. Mr. CoMaor has stated that it would be 1,600 tons? A. He is a long way] astray. Mr. CoNNOB — I am positive. Q. What quantity did you use last year? A. I think it was between 400 and ! 500 tons. Q. Did you supply more than a quarter of the country's needs ? A. It would] probably be a quarter. Q. Including export ? A. No. By Mr. Landry : Q. You do not know of anything whereby this combination sells to only certain^ persons? A. 1 think they have a combination, so that prices are very fine. Thoi difficulty is, a hardware man can buy ten tons. Country hardware men will com- bine together and will take 100 tons and can sell it out over the counter for much] less than we can handle it through two or three hands and go to the country. By the Chairmxin : Q. Do Harris & Son control the Brantford works ? A. Yes ; I think one oi them is president of the company. The output is arranged so that the Harris Company control it, and they put it on the market in that way. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. I think you have stated that there is no combination among manufacturers-j oi agricnltural implements? A. No. They are selling now at a loss. Q. How do you manage to ship to foreign markets? A. We get a bigger price. Of course the introducing and establishment of a foreign agency is enormous at firsts] and the machines we are sending out there we do not expect to realize on at present, bat in the future we hope to realize more than we are doing now in Canada ; for they are selling binders to-day at less than they can deliver them for. I do not say wo-| are doing it. I know two or three firms who have made sales this year at a loss. Q. Then protection is of no advantage to you? A. There is an over produo-] tion. Hthis combination were to reduce the output to a fair and reasonable amount, but when they extort money, I think it is wrong. It is wrong to put on a price Ji)eyond what is a reasonable profit. BINDER TWINK, STC. 357 Q. Still, I am not quite clear about the relative prices between those you eell at to the farmers in this country and the machines you ship abroad. I understood you to say that you get a larger profit on what you sell at home than abroad ? A. W& do when we get our price ; but we do not pretend to say that we are selling at the loss others are. We have a fixed price, and if we cannot sell them for that we will keep them or send them abroad. Q . If yon were not protected, if the market was open to the Americans, could you manufacture at all ? Do you require protection ? A. Yes, sir ; any new coun- try requires protection. Q. Would you be able to ship to foreign markets if you had not the control of your own market ? A . Yes ; because we would get the raw material enough lower to enable us to make the machines low enough to compete with them. The dutiea on the material we are using is equivalent to the advantage!* that we gain by protec- tion. Q. Then you are not protected at all ? A. For foreign markets they give a re- bate on the duties paid out ; but what are we to do when the material advances as iron and steel have done. Iron and steel have advanced from 25 to 50 per cent, as against a year ago. We are out of pocket that much. Q. Are you selling cheaper machineb ? A. Nearly the same price as last year; but this year we will pay out over $30,000 over and above the prices we paid for the same material last year, in consequence of difference in the tariff. By Mr, Fisher : Q. You said a few momerits ago that when you exported your machines you got a rebate; that is, on the raw material on which you had paid duty; and as the duty on iron and steel has increased you will not import so much? A. No; we will bay it in the country. Q. Then you will lose the profit you made in that way ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. How much ought the rebate to be ? A- About $10 on each binder. We have a claim here now with the Gravernment that is being adjusted. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) ; Q. Why do you buy iron in the country if you can get a rebate? A. Because I want to patroniza home industry. Q. Pure philanthropy ? A. Not altogether. Some of the grades I can buy ia the States as cheap as in this country ; but I am a protectionist, and want to buy here. By Mr, Fisher : Q. What can jute be sold at in Canada? A. 10 cents per pound to the farmer; but it has not the same strength. It only answers some binders. The Americans do not make jute. It is the English. John Connor recalled. By Mr. Gasgrain : Q. Let me understand this, as a matter of fact, pure and simple. Is this com- bination of you five to prevent over production ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And second, to have a lair profit on your manufacture ? A. Well, I do not know that those words would cover the preamble of the association. I think the most satisfactory way would be to give you a copy of our agreement. I would have no objection at all Q Tell me when.you meet together ? You had a meeting when you reorganized in August last. Did you discuss the matter of percentage of profits then to be made ? A. No. We have an official as supervisor of the association, and that official is secretary of the association. It is he who makes the prices according as the material fluctuates in value. He will telegraph around to the manufacturers so that there is a uniformity. We never change unless there is a diflarencie of half a cent per pound on the fibre. The Committee then adjourned. 358 THOMAS WORKMAN. House of Commons, Ottawa, 20 th April, 1888, The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace,. M.P., in the chair. Thomas Workman, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation ? A. Hardware merchant, Ottawa. Q. Do you deal in barbed wire ? A. Yes. Q. How many manufacturers of barbed wire are there in the country ? A. I think there are only three in Canada now. Q. Manufacturers of barbed wire? A. Yes. The Canada Wire Company, The Dominion Barbed Wire Company and the Ontario Barbed Wire Company. Q. Where are their places of business? A. The Dominion Barbed Wire Com- pany and the Canada Wire Company are in Montreal, and the Ontario Lead and Barbed Wire Company is in Toronto. We never deal with them. Q. There are only three ? A. Only three. Q. There is another kind of wire. Are there any other factories making it ? A. I think there are only two. I think the Dominion Barbed Wire Company are not drawers of wire. Q. That flat fence wire ? A. Oh, flat fence wire. Q. Who makes that ? A. Well, there is the buckthorn. It is a twisted strip that is largely brought in from Germany. The Dominion Barbed Wire Company also manufacture them to a limited extent. Q. Where are the works of the Dominion Company ? A. In Montreal. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know of any combination among these manufacturers? A. There is a cumbinati(;n. This circular we received was dated the Ist December. It reads; To the Barb Wire Association of Canada : , the undersigned, merchant of , for the purpose of securing a fair profit from the sale of barb wire, do hereby agree and iaithfully promise, that for the next year from date, not to sell barb wire or Btaples, or allow the same to be sold, for less than six and one-quarter cents (6J) per pound cash, and will in no wise, directly or indirectly, violate this agreement." The Ubual terms are 2 per cent, off for cash or 60 days. That would leave us a profit without considering the cash discount of half a ceat a pound for handling it. Q. Your agreement was to t-ell it for 6J cents ? A. Yes ; it would cost us 6f less 2 per cent, lor cash, delivered here. These were bought alter the business was over last fall. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Wn at was the price last leason? A. 6 cents. It is delivered here at 5f and it we paid cash in 10 days we got 2 per cent. off. I think the agreement is not being carried out generally all over the coudtry. Wo have hoard of several cutting under that price. Q. That is an agreement for cash? A. Yes; of course we could make it much higher than that if we liked. By the Chairman : Q. You agree then for the next year. This agreement is for the present year ? A. Yes, sir, for this present jear. Q. Before that the price was exactly the same? A. They did not alter the price except they will allow no person the rebate of one-quarter cent per pound who lias not signed. If they carried out their agreement and if we did not sign we would have to pay 6 cents. My experience with barbed wire companies is that they would sell to us, even if wo did not sign. Q. You are prepared to sell? A. Yes; I made a different arrangement before this. Q. Do you sell largely ? A. We sell probably 15 or 20 tons of this wire. BABBED WIRC, STC. 359 Q. Ton have an invoice here of 10 tons ? A. Yes. That i% a carload. By Mr, Fisher: Q. What is the quality of that wire ; is there a difference between the namber of points or barbs ? A. There is a difference of distance, some lour inches. Q. You got the same price ? A. Yes. (^. Are there two points on the barb or three ? A. It is nearly all fonr points here. There is no difference in price. Q. Then there is the Manitoba barb ? A. That is the Canada Company's barbed wire with four points. It is a difference in the way the barb3 are put on . Q. Are you aware of any barbed wire machinery in the country standing idle ; or any factories that have been fchnt down in consequence of this agreement ? A. I do not Q. Are you aware that there were more factories three years ago than there are now ? A. I thought there was a factory in Woodstock. By Mr. McKay : Q. Is there not one in Windsor ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. What about the Barnum Company ? A. They do not sell barbed wire here. Q. Does this include bnckthorn ? A. Only barbed wire. Q. Is there any agi cement in selling to the dealer in buckthorn ? A. No. It is quoted in Montreal at 5 cents, and last year it was quoted at $5.37. Q. Is it manufactured in this country ? A. The Dominion Barbed Wire Com- pany claim to manufacture it, but whether they buy it or not, I cannot say. Q. It is the same price as the imported ? A. Yes. By Mr. Gviltet : Q. Tbat is the band or ribbon wire ? A. It is a twisted band with a seam through the middle; it is jost twisted. Q. Is it cheaper ? A. Yes ; I think the buckthorn broaght down the price of barbed wire. By the Chainttan : Q. What is the price of bnckthorn ? A. It is now 5 cents in Montreal. I think that would also include Ireight to Ottawa. I do not know but the freight to certain points is paid. By Mr Fisher : Q. Buckthorn will stand as great a strain as barbed wire ? A. That is a matter of opiniyn. By the Chairman : Q. They pay the freight to Ottawa on buckthorn ? A. I think so. I think that would carry ireight to Ottawa- I think we could have it delivered here for & cents. Q. Is it better than barbed wire ? A. The price was in favor of buckthorn. In May, 1883, barbed wire cost S| cents. Q. Was ihe freight paid ? A. I think it was always paid on barbed wire. That is not taking into consideration the 2J per cent, discount, as that merely depends on the capital to pay it. Now, I might mention that the price in September, 1883, was reduced to 7 cents, and the price was probably reduced &b buckthorn came into use about that time. Q. That was 1^ cents in favor of buckthorn ? A. Yes. Q. That is what pulled the price down ? A. Yes. Then in 1884 barbed wire was sold at 7 cents and buckthorn was reduced to 5 cents. In 1885 barbed was ar- nuiged at the same price it is now — 6 cents, less 25 cents rebate. Q. This was imported buckthorn ? A. Yes. Q. In 18S5 barbed wire was 6 cents less 25 ; what was it in 1886? A. In 1886 we bought buckthorn. Q. What was barbed wire ? A. The same price as to-day. We bought buck- thorn at 5 cents. * Q. What is buckthorn now ? A. It is again 5 cents but it went up. Last year wo paid $5.37. That was the net cash price. v^60 THOMAS WORKMAN. Q. That would be ^^ on the UBual terms ? A. Yes ; in proportion to others. By Mr, Fisher : Q. What is the duty on barbed wire? A. 1^ cents per pound. The present price of barbed wire in Pittsburgh, in April, was 4 cents. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Is it made in England ? A. I think so, but I do not know the price. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. This 4 cents was at the factory? A'. I think it would be delivered for that at any point in the eastern portion of the United States. I think it would be de- livered at Ogdensburg ; but there is an understanding amongst the manufacturers that they will not ship into Canada. By Mr. Fisher : Q. An understanding with our manufacturers? A. Yes; an arrangement. Our manufacturers are what they would call licensed companies from the Washburn ■Company, who own the patent. Q. That is an arrangement by the patentee with people who pay them a roy- alty ? A. I think so. Q. Do our manufacturers here pay a royalty? A. I think so; but it is very email now. Q. Has the patentee in the United States an arrangement with those here by which those in the United States will not ship into Canada ? A. I believe so. In 1884 we bought a car load from Scutt & Company, Pittsburgh. We bought it for $3.85. The freight was very low, being only 25 cents to Ottawa per 100 pounds ; but the Customs people would not accept duty on the face value of the invoice, so that it cost OS ^5.28 to lay it down. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. What do the Customs people value it at ? A. I do not remember. By the Chairman : Q. That would be only $1.18 duty ? A. This duty was changed last year. The duty then was 25 per cent. By Mr. Boyle : Q. It would be 81 a ion ? A. It cost $5.28 to us ; that would be more. By the Chairman : Q. $3.85 and $5.28 would be $1.18. That would be the duty on $4.72 ? A. I am not sure whether it was 25 cents. I was rather annoyed at the time and made a note on my invoice of the facts. The agent of the Dominion Wire Company asked if we had bought wire in Pittsburg, and brought it into Canada, and said he would proceed against us ; but they did not proceed against us. By Mr. FisJier : Q. Why ? A. Having the patent. They took proceedings against Wood & iJeggatt, of Hamilton. By the Chairman : Q. Whom did you buy this from ? A . We have bought for the past year from the Canada Wire Company Q. That is one of the Montreal firms ? A. Yes ; Ives. Q. You are dealing in stoves too ? A. Yes ; to a certain extent. Q. What kind ? A. Coal stoves. Q. Any other kind ? A. I have sometimes sold cook stoves, bat I deal prin- cipally in coal stoves. Q. Who are the principal manufacturers of coal stoves in Canada that you know of ? A. B. & C. Gurney I fancy manufacture largely. We buy from Burrow, Stewart & Milne, of Hamilton. Q. Do you know of any combination among the dealers in stoves ? A. I know that there is a combination amongst them. Q. How do you know ? A.I know amongst certain dealers who are mentioned aa being in combioation that they have fixed prices. STOVES, BTC. 361 By Mr. McKay : Q. You mean manafaotarers when you Bay dealers 7 A. Yes; I should have said manufacturers. You asked me about dealers ? The Chaibman. — I meant manufacturers. By Mr. Fisher : Q Have you received any circalars from manufacturers ? A. No, sir ; when I come to look I have none. By Mr. Bain (WentwortK) : Q. You were not asked to become a party to any arrangement ? A. No. Q. They do not stipulate any prices to you ? A. No, they merely arrange their own wholesale price. Q. Have you found the prices uniform ? A. Amongst the people in the eom- bination ? Tes. Their lists vary ard discounts are different, but if you come to take the net weight of the stoves they are probably about the same price. Q. They appear as if there was an understanding in price? A. I have been told by manufacturers that a committee arranged prices. A man has a new stove and the committee decide what price that stove shall be sold at, and the manufacturer cannot sell below that That is what I have been told by a manufacturer. By the Chairman : Q. There is no interference with you in selling it at any price you choose ? A. Nou Q. Is there considerable rivalry among the stove sellers of Ottawa? A. Yes. Q. A good deal of cutting of prices ? A. We hear of it. I think prices are pretty well cut. By Mr. Bain ( WeAitcorth) : Q. Bo you only hear of it ? A. We do not always pay attention to what we hear. If we did we would be selling stoves at $10 apiece. Q. You have not been able to purchase at cut rates ? A. H. R. Ives & Company are not in the manufacturers' association. They sell at their own prices and they pretend to sell lower than the manufacturers who are in the combination. By the Chairman : Q. You think there is a combination and that some are not in it ? A. Yes. Q. Who else besides Ives ? A. I am not very well posted. Ives is the only one I know of. By Mr. McKay : Q. Did you notice that this combination extended to cooking stoves as W^l a9 heaters ? A Yes. Q. All kinds of cooking stoves By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. I suppose he is only speaking from nsual information ? A. That is al^ sir. Mr. McKay — He says that he knows that it does. Witness — I know from what the manufacturers have told me. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are there any combinations in any other articles? A. There is Bomething^ mentioned to Mr. Wallace the other day — tar paper. The witness handed the chairman the following letter which was read. MoNTRXAL, 23rd March, 1888. A. Workman & Co., Ottawa, Gkntlemen, — By the recent decision of the sheathing paper men, an agreement was made by which we could not handle paper to sell at the proper price except by working in with a member of the association of saturators. We are accordingly selling paper now on account of Geo. W. Reid. We are giving you the best price al- lowed any one. You will thus understand why we send you Reid's invoice, and trust we may have your further favors when in the market. Yours very truly, GILMOUR & CO. 3€2 JOSEPH B. ESMONDS. Witness — Then we are agents for the Northumberland paper mills. (The witness read the second letter as follows) : — Oambbllfobd, Ontario, 14th April, 1888. MESSRS. Alex. Workman & Co., Ottawa. Dear Sirs, — In reply to your favor of the 13th inst., yoo are not obliged to buy from the satnrators, bat you can buy as cheaply through them as you can from us. Our best price is $32, plus freight from Montreal to Ottawa delivered. Terms 3^ per cent, off, 30 days tor either laid or plain in car load lots. Yours truly, TEE NORTHUMBERLAND PAPER CO. By the Chairman : Q. Is that lower or higher then you bought last year? A. That is freight paid. It is only an advance of 5 cents. But the people in Montreal have been charging us lugher than that. That this $1 a ton. Q. It was $31 a ton delivered in Ottawa before that? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Do they charge the same rate for tar and plain paper ? A. Yes ; the same price per pound. By the Chairman : Q. That is a pretty low figure is it not for plain paper, $1.60 per 100 ? A. We liave bought it as low as $1.50 delivered in Ottawa, but we had to take a carload to ^et it at that price. The best at Montreal to-day is $1.70; Joseph R. Esmonde, sworn. By the Chairman : made, as my friend Mr. Gcaves will be iho sole agent for a certain stove, Mr. Work- man for another, I for another, and they will be sold by no one else in the city. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Ih that a role of the oombination ? A. No. By Mr. Quillet : Q. All dealers may bay from the combination ? A. Yes ; that is not by the combination but by each individaal hoase. For instance, Mr. Graves would want a piece of casting from William Back, for whom I am sole agent in Ottawa; be cannot get it except through me. I want a piece of casting for a stove for which he is agent; I cannot get it except throagh him. Q. You make a private arrangement ; manufaoturers are selling at prioes agreed on between themselves? A. Yes; I prosome so. STOVES. 365 Q. You say you have made an arrangement with a man who is a member of the combination whose name you do not wish to disclose ? A. No. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I understood you to say that there were men outside of the combination and that you had a similar arrangement with them? A. Yes ; in some cases, but not as a rule. Q. It is only the men in the combination who make this rule ? A. It is not a rule. It seems to be an accepted thing that a man who takes a stove has the exclu- sive agency. I boy for instance a couple of thousand dollars' worth of one kind of stoves and I expect to have that alone. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. That is between you and the individual maker ? A. Yes. Q. He considers it desirable to have one agent and give him the exclusive right to handle his goods in that place ? A. That is right. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I suppose under these circumstances you have some sort of arrangement aa to prices at which you sell these stoves? A. No, sir; sell them for little or much. By Mr. McKay ; Q. On any terms or at any prices you wish ? A. Yes. Q. No restriction ? A. No, sir. By the Chairman : Q. You do not know anything of any arrangement that the stove manufaoturera have made among themselves ? A. No. Q, You know there is a combination among them ? A. Yes. P. T. Geavbs, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Give your name, occupation and address? A. F. T. Graves, Ottawa, of Graves Bros., stoves and hardware. Q. You have heard Mr. Esmonde's evidence ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there anything that you can add further in regard to the way retail dealers are selling stoves? A. He has got it down about as fine as you could get it. Q. Do you know of any combination among the manufacturers of stoves ? A. Yee, sir ; there is supposed to be one. They give notices and there is supposed to be a combination. Q. What foundation have you for thinking that there is ? A. Nothing more than the circulars received ? Q, You get the same prices from all ? A. Yes ; we get notices from all. Q. Do they generally rule up or down ? A. Up. By Mr. Fisher : Q. There is nothing in these circulars to show that there is a combination ? A. Nothing except what they say. Q. They are not issued by the secretary of the combination ? A. They used to be a year or two ago, bat the last year or two each manufacturer sends out his own notice. Q, Is there anything in that to indicate that -there is a combination ? A. It generally heads off with the statement that the general committee of manufacturer* has decided to raise the price of stoves to a certain figure. By the Chairman : Q. We have here three or four post cards which were addressed to a man on the same date, and asking the same thing ? A. That is the way we usually receive them. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do you deal chiefly in the stoves made by this association ; that is of the same quality as the last witness spoke of? A. Yes, principally . 366 F. T. GRAYBS. Q. Do you find those outside of the combination diflferent in quality from those inside? A. Yes; they are not so well finished. They may be equally as ^ood in "wearing and working, but they are not so well finished. In the line of cooking etoves and in the line of heating stoves they do not make them so good. Q. Do you buy them cheaper than in the combination ? A. Some of them are from 5 to 10 per cent. Q. From your knowledge of the trade would you say there is that much differ- ence in the quality of the stoves ? A. I would, sir; yes. We don't sell but very few of them. There is not much demand tor them. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. There is not so much demand, so you don't keep them ? A. We keep them. We put the two stoves side by side and make a difference of 8 or 10 per cent. They will pay the difference and take the dearer stove. They see it at once to be unfinished. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I suppose you make a little more profit on the higher priced stove than on the lower one ? A. It is supposed we will make a little more profit than on the other. The profit s on stoves are very small either way. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Have the prices gone up much this last year? A. 1885 was 5 per cent., 1887 was 8 per cent, in advance of the previous year. By Mr, Boyle : Q. Is there any reason given for this advance ? A. It is supposed to be the increase of labor and iron, and so on. They have a great deal of difficulty with the moulders. The moulders make very large wages, working about three days in the week and drinking the balance. By Mr. McKay : Q. Do you actually know of any advance given to moulders over the pay given this last year ? A. Only what we hear. We hear we have to pay them more wages. Q. Did you hear the amount? A. No, sir. ' By Mr. McDougall : Q. What is the increase in price this last year? A. 5 per cent. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you remember between 1887 and 1886 ? A. I don't. I would not be positive, but it strikes me they charge 13 per cent., 12 or 13 per cent. more. By the Chairman : Q. When did this advance of 8 per cent, take place ? A. Somewhere about March, last year. Q. That is March, 1887? A. Yes. Q. Then last month ? A. The advance was 5 per cent. Q. March is about the time they usually seod out these circulars? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. There is a restriction on the prices you sell at ? A. We can give them away if we like as long as we buy them and pay for i,hem. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you any practical knowledge of the manufacture of stoves ? A, No. Q. Are you prepared to say whether the manufacturers are justified in exacting these advances from you or not? A. Well, that is hard to say. We accused them that they have do right to do so. Of course we are not practical, wo don't know anything about it. We hear their travellers say that they should not raise them. I hear a traveller say that they should not raise them. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Has there been a corresponding rise in the price of stoves not in the associa- tion 7 A. Yes, of course, they follow up the combination and just keep a little below to try and run their stoves in. Q. They also have raised their prices ? A. Yea. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How long is it since they gave you a circular putting down the prices, lowering them ? A. I could not answer that. It always seems to be going up. ST0VB8. 367 Q. Yon cannot remember a time when stoves got cheaper ? A. No ; I could not. I suppose it was nine or ten years ago. By Mr. McKay : Q. They got cheaper about nine years ago, did they ? A. Tes, By Mr, GuilUt : Q The quality has been improving every year? A. Yes. Mr. Bain— They have been going up a little every year. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They are more durable ? A.I could not say that they are more dnrable. Q. Don't better castings last longer? A. 1 don't think it. They are nicft looking. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. This higher finish that you speak of is really no better ? A. No ; it is only loOKS By Mr. McKay : Q. Are the stoves not much more highly mounted than the ones before 1886^ 1887, 1888? A. Oh, yes; very much more. Q. Is that not where the increased price comes in ? A. Yes. Q If the people wish to pay for them they are at liberty to do it? A. Yes; but they are no better to wear. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Thete nickel plated and finer finished stoves aie lighter and less likely left wear then other stoves ? A. Yes. Q. And the advance in the price is not jastified by this finish. Beally th& stove is not much more expensive to make than it was before all that ornament was; put on it? A. Well, of course, there is the d fference in the weight of the iron The difference of 25 or 60 pound, at one-half cent a pound, don't amount to much. Q. Still they cut them down as much as possible? A. Yes; especially with this- «ombination. They will have to run their patterns or castings to get them down in some way as light as possible, as the association binds them to a certain price. They want to get the weight of stovTes down. Q. Do you sell by the pound or the stove ? A. By the stove. Of course their great cry is the increased price paid to moulders. You take these manufacturers and the great difficulty is the one thing that Mr. Esmonde has spoken of that they change their stoves so often. They will only run a base burner, which has ao average life of about two years, and every pattern cost from S 1,000 to $1,500. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You do not mean to say that the average life of a base burner is that ? A,. Only in style. That is the way they spend so much money. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Still the general lines of stoves have not advanced in price ? A. Yes. Q. How was it before lb86 ? ~ A. Well, I cannot go any further. It seems tot me that in 1883, 1884 and 1885 they were about the same. It seems to me that there was not much change. The first big jump I can recollect was this 13 per cent. By Mr. McKay : Q. Was not that the time the Art Garland came out ? A. I think that the ArU "Garland has been out about three years. That really had nothing to do with it. By Air. Macdougall (Pictoa) : Q. What is the average weight of a base burner ? A. 275 to 300 pounds, Q. What does that sell for ? A. $35. Q. Retail? A. Yes. Q. What is the wholesale price ? A. Somewhere about $30. Q. What proportion of that would the iron coat ? A. You know what pig iwm. is worth. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You do not handle pig iron ? A. No, sir. You see the moulders make ia the neighborhood of $30 a week. I know as far as dealers are ooncemed tha^ there ia very little money in the stove business. 368 F. T, GRAVES. By Mr. Fisher : Q Do you deal in barbed wire ? A. Very little. We have gone out of it. Q. Where did you buy ? A. In Montreal. I heard Mr. Workman speaking of buying ; we were in the same fix as he was in regard to the duty. Q. Did you find the same difficulty with reference to infringement of the patent ? A. Yes ; we were also served with a notice. Q. On whose part was that notice served ? A, I do not remember. Q. Was it the manufacturers of Canada? A. It was the manufacturers of Canada. I think it came originally from the Dominion Barbed Wire Company. Some lawyers in London I think wrote us. It was through them at all events. Q. Does the Canadian Barbed Wire Company manufacture under the same patent ? A. I think so. Q. You do not know of any other manufacturers only these three ? A, I do not. Q. Do you know of any that have been closed ? A. I do not know of any and I do not think there is. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. The trouble that stopped you buying was the increased tariff that the Cus- toma put on you and this objection raised by the Canadian manufacturers ? A. Yes. Q. The American men would still have sold you? A. I do not think they woald now. They would not sell if they knew it is to come into here. Q. Practically the Canadian men have a monopoly ? A. Yes. By th£ Chairman : Q. They have the monopoly through the purchase of the patent ? A. Yes ;, they pay a royally. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do you deal in cordage ? A. Yes. Q. In binder twine ? A. No ; we do not handle that. ' Q. Where do you get your cordage ? A. Principally from Montreal. Q Are you aware of any combination? A. There is supposed to be. Of course ^ "we do not know, but we know It has taken a tremendous jump. Q. Since when ? A. Along last fall. Q. Before that did yon find any change in regard to the price list ? A. We found they stuck cloeely to the same thing. Q, There seemed to be no difference between them before and after. They eeemed to have had an arrangement amongst themselves to make that jump? A. Yes. Q, Have you reason to believe that beyond your suspicion ? A. Nothing more than to hear people talk, saying that there was a combination. The only evidence wae the jump. By Mr. Oillmor : Q. Two or three cents per pound ? A. Yes ; three cents and three and a half eents. Q. A sudden riee ? A. Yes. Q. That was in the fall of 1887 ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What was the reason given? A. No reasons were given that I remember of. Q. Bad prices been pretty uniform before that? A. Yes; they had been running along for two years at the same price. Q. Are you aware that there has been a break in the oombination ? A. I do not think there has. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : O. Weie there any circulars sent to you intimating that there was a rise in raw siftterial and that prices were likely to go up ? A. No, sir, we did not get any notice of this thing. They generally spring them on as. Q. What kind do you handle? A. Twine. Q. Could you import? A. Yes, we could, but we supposed we were getting it cheaper. We supposed we were buying mattress twine tor 25 per cent. less. Q. Where do yoa get that? A. It is manufactured in Campbellford. BABBBD WIRE AND OOBDAGX. 369 Q. The imported article was poor? A. Yes; that made the diflFerence in the price and we did not buy any more. It is not fit for mattress twine. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The kind, you say, was inferior ; where did you buy that ? A. Imported it through a Toronto house. Ii was manufactured in England^ Here is something on binder twine which will prove a combination, you were asking about it. It is a circular. We get a lot of these things and put them in the waste paper basket. We know that prices have gone up, and we pot them down in the price book and that ends it. (Witness here hands in a letter IroraA. W. Morris & Bros., of Montreal, ad- dressed to Mr. Workman, a previous witness.) (Exhibit 39.) By Mr. Fisher : Q. You charge according to what you have to pay? A, Yes ; but that does not make any diffarenct . If we get up and kick they do not pay any attention to it. (The Chairman here read the letter handed in by the witness.) (Exhibit 39.) By Mr. Bain ( Wtntworth) : Q. When do you get your stocks of cordage principally ? A. Fall and spring. Q. Do you handle pressed tinware ? A. Yee. Q. Along with stoves? A.. Yes. Q. How are they handled ? A. There is a combination in pressed tinware. Wo received notice a few days ago that they had advanced considerably. Q. Where have they got their headquarters V A. Davis of Montreal and Maodonald, Kemp and Company of Toronto, and the McCleary Manofactaring Com-^ pany of London. Their names are all on the one circular. Q. What is the nature of their arrangement? A. The nature of it is that there is quite a big jamp of about 25 per cent. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Was there a reason why it should go up on account of the advance in ma- terial? A. ies; the advance on tin, they claim. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is the actual advance on tin? A. On sheet tin I cannot say exactly^ but the block tin that 4 months ago we would bay for 21 cents a pound is worth to- day 40 cents. By Mr. McKay: Q. That is nearly 100 per cent. ? A. That is done by a combination. By the Chairman: Q. Does that extend to your business ? A. Yes. Q. Four months ago you could buy it for 21 cents and to-day it is 40 ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That combination extends to the mines or where is it ? A. I do not know about the mines ; but I know it is with the dealers— the people we have to buy it from. Q. In England and the United States ? A. Yes and France. I believe a French syndicate controls the copper and tin principally. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q. About what has been the advance on copper, while we are speaking of these things ? A. Copper has advanced from about 2l cents to 29 cents. Q. They have not done as well on that as tin ? A. That is my experience. Q. The organization is only recent in this tinware? A. I have understood that there has been a combination but the price of tinware has been ridiculously low. If % man bought $100 worth it would filJ up his whole place. By the Chairman : Q. Below the cost of production ? A.I cannot say below the cost, but I do not think they made much. Q- Do you think there was a fair profit ? A. I do not think so. By Mr. McKay : Q. One manufacturer in Hamilton went out of it, and another broke down ? A. J . M. Williams went out of it and the other broke down. The Committee then adjourned. 3—24 370 H. R. IVES. House of Commons, Ottawa, 18th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace, MP., in the chair. H. R. IVJBS, manufacturer, Montreal, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What do you manufaoture, Mr. Ives ? A. I manufacture stoves, hardware and miscellaneous small warea. Q. Have you any combination with other manufacturers in stoves ? A. No ; I liave not. Q. Have you ary business arrangement ? A. None whatever at present. Q. Do you know of any such arrangement being in existence ? A. I do. Q. Were you not in it ? A. No ; I have not been in it. Q. At any time ? A. No; not at any time. Q. Have you been asked to join it ? A. I have. Q. And what were your objections ? A. I had no particular objection except personal objections. There is a diflSculty in carrying it out effectually in our part of the country for one reason and another. It would have been in the small line that I manufactare in comparison with some of the larger ones. It would not perhaps be to my advantage. Q. Are you in any combination in any other manufacture? A. Yes. I might say with reference to the stove combination, that I think it has proved a great benefit to the trade and the quality of goods has been improved. I think, so far as I know of it, that it has been favorable to the interest of the trade generally. Q. How about the prices ? Do you know the prices which the combination charge ? A. 1 do not know precisely but I thiDk they are very fair prices. Q. Giving a good profit ? A, The profit is a relative expression. It depends so much upon the expenses. It is very difficult for a manufacturer to determine what his profit is ; sometimes it is only possible to get it after a term of years. The wear and tear of plant, new machinery, &c., all enter into the cost of the manu- facture. Q. Are your prices regulated the same as the combination ? A. Very nearlj.^ We are influenced more or less by competition with others. Q. What other competition is there besides your combination ? A. There are a very large number of small makers who are not in the combination. Q. There is a large number not in the combination ? A. Yes ; a very large number. Q. Where are they ? A. All over the country. Q. Are there any in Montreal? A. Yes; quite a large number. Q. Who are they? A. I could hardly give the names. There is a large list of small manufacturers. Q But are these stove manufacturers? A. Yes; almost every small town has a stove foundry. Q. So far as yon know, the prices of all those firms are kept pretty well up to. the prices of the combination or association? A, I think they do very fairly. Q. You think the association benefits you in keeping up the prices ? A. I think it does in a measure. I think that owing to some regulation which they have with «ach other by which they avoid, as far as possible, taking each other's patterns and endeavoring in fair competition to get up superior goods, it has a beneficial e£feot«, I think that is the tendency of their combination. As the prices are equalized eaoli one endeavois to excel in quality. Therefore, I think it is beneficial to the trade generafly . Q. How is this arrangement made about prices ? Do they regulate the prices with different men making a somewhat different article? A. They have an experi- enced adjuster who weighs and takes into aooount all the costs of each stove, and then the price is fixed for it according to its relative value« Q. The adjuster fixes the prices of all the stoves ? A. Yes. STOYBS. 391 Q. And his decision is final is it ? A. Yes ; I think it is. That is only what I have been told as I have not been in it. As it has been explained to me it works very harmoniously in that way. The subject has been advanced to me when asked to join ; these are the arguments in favor of it. Q. When were you asked to join ? A. Recently. Q. And previous to that ? A. Oh, occasionally. Q. Are you in any other association, any manufacturers' association or dealers' association ? A. Not in any association. We have private arrangements with others with regard to prices. By Mr. Bain ( WenitoortK) : Q. How do your prices this year compare with last ? Are they the same for the same class ot goods or is there any advance ? A. Well, we have made no ad- vance at present. The prices are jast about the same. Q. Your prices are just the same now as they were a year ago ? A. Yes. Q. When was your last change on your current prices ? A. I do not remem- ber. It may have been a year or more ago possibly bat I do not remember. There has been no decided advance. Q. But a year ago you made an advance ? A. I do not think there was a general advance. Q. But you made an advance on some lines ? A^ Yes. Q. About how much per cent.? A. About 5 per cent. The prices are regulated upon different articles at different times according to circumstances. There was no advance upon the whole. Q. I am speaking of your current staple stoves ? A. Well, it is a large item, but there has been no general advance. Q. But you made an advance in some lines of about 5 per cent, a year ago ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Have you decreased the price in any item? A. Yes; some were higher and some were lower. Q. So that the average would be about the same ? A. Yes I think the average would be about the eame, so far as my business was concerned. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. Have you had any advance within the last two or three years or so ? A, Well, styles and patterns change so much it is almost impossible to say that. I should say there had not been. Q. You bave had no general advance? A. No ; I should say not. By the Chairman .' Q. You did not join the combination ? A. No. Q. No combination or association? A. No association, further than that there is an arrangement between the James Smardon Manufacturing Ck)mpany and my- self. We have an agreement with regard to the prices of hardware. Q. In what article ? A. Miscellaneous hardware. Q. Articles that you both manufacture ? A. Yes. Q. How does that arrangement work? Does it work satisfactorily ? A. Yos ; very satisfactorily, Q. Have you a written agreement ? A. Yes ; there is an agreement. It is more of a friendly nature. There are two of us — I think there are only two in it— and wo meet from time to time and fix the prices as they need to be. Sometimes they are reduced, and sometimes advanced, according to circumstances. By Mr. Bain ( Wenticorth) : Q. Are you interested in the barbed wire business, Mr. Ives ? A. I am president and manager of the Canada Wire Company. Q. flow is it with respect to that business ? A. That is managed under the auspices of the Washburn & Moen Manufacturing Company of Worcester, Mass. Q. They are an American concern ? A. Yes. Q. You manufactured ? A, By paying a royalty, 3—24^ 372 H. R. IVBS. Q. Under their patent ? A. Yes. Q. That gives you the exclusive right in Canada ? A. Weil there are three concerns. Q. Then the three of you have the exclusive right to manufacture that particular style of wire in Canada under the royalty ? A. Yes. By the Chairman ; Q. What royalty is there ? A. I would like to state everything that is proper under the circumstances, but am I obliged to say anything with regard to private business in that way ? I do not see that it affects the public generally. 1 do not object if there is any necessity for it. Q. Is there any object for refusing ? A. No. Q. We have quotations here of American barbed wire a good deal lower than jours. We want to account for the difference in price, but we have no desire to pry into your private business ? A. I am willing to state what it is but it would be embarrassing me. Q. We do not want to embarrass you ? A. We pay 15 cents per 100 pounds royalty, which is more than they pay in the States at present. Q. What is the extent of the manufacture, or to what extent do you manufacture barbed wire ? A. Several hundred tons a year, possibly 600 or 700, I think in that neighborhood . Q. And do you know the amount that the other two firms manufacture ? A. One does more and the other about the same. Q. How much more? A. Oh, I think they do nearly double. Q. About double ? A. Yes ; about double. Q, Do they import any barbed wire ? A. There is very little imported. Q. Is that the total consumption ? A. Yes ; about that. Q. 2,800 tons? A. Yes ; I think that is the maximum. I think as near as I Q&n remember that it is somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 tons. Q. What are your prices for it, the prices for the best that you make ? A. Our {)riees are varied according to the dealers. For instance, we give railways, who are arge consumers, a 5^ cent rate, the wholesale men 5f , and the retailers 6 cents. Of course there is a discount for cash, and we deliver the goods in all parts of the Dominion. Q. In all parts of the Dominion ? A. Yes. For the North- West the prices are lower to compensate in some manner for the freight. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You deliver at lower rates in the North- West? A. Well, we sell at a lower rate here. Q. You do not deliver in the North- West ? A. No ; we do not deliver in the North-West. By the Chairman : Q. Is there any of the buckthorn wire made in this country ? A. Yes ; there is a little. I think it has not given general satisfaction. I think the sale has fallen off. Q. What about the price of it ? A.I think it is a little less. We have sold the baokthorn. " By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you make it ? A. We did not make it. We bought it from the importers. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. It is of German make, mostly, is it not ? A. Yes, mostly ; and latterly we found that it did not give satisfaction. The sale has fallen off. By the Chairman : Q. What is the defect in it ? A. I thick that it does not stand the effect of frost or enow, but really I do not know precisely. I would not like to say anything against it, but I think the sale has fallen off. I know we have not been able to sell it. Q. How long have you been manufacturing barbed wire ? A. 5 years I think. Q. What was the price 6 years ago ? A. Well, I think the price when we first commenced was about 8 cents per pound. BA&B8D WIBE. 373 Q. Eight cents per pound ? A. Yes. By Mr Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. That would be about 1883? A. Yes ; somewhere about then. By the Chairman : Q. And the prices have been gradually going down since then ? A. Yes, Q. And now they are at the figures you state ? A, Yes. Q. Have you raised the prices this year over last year ? A. No. Q. You have not raised the prices? A. There has been no advance in prices. Q. The prices remain about the same ? A. Yes, about the same. There have 4>een some trifling variation in terms and discount. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is your current discount for cash ? A . 2 and 3 per cent. Q. Is there any imported barbed wire at all ? A. I think they import a little on the borders. Q. Well, have they the privilege of doing that? Does it not interfere? A. Yes ; but there is not sufficient to make any trouble. Q. But if it wag becoming extended it would interfere with your business? A. Oh, yes, it would I suppose. Q. You have objected occasionally, as a matter of fact, when Canadian manu- facturers were importing, have you not? A. Yes. Q. When you knew of it you interfered ? A. Yes ; it is contrary to our agree- ment with the patentee. Q. As a matter of fact, you are supposed to furnish the whole of the barbed wire, under the royalty you pay this Arm, for the Dominion ? A. Yes. Q. Is there any arrangement with you, by which they refuse to sell to Canadian delivery, or do they leave you to protect yourself here ? A. They would leave us to protect ourselves here. Q. Then your only mode of protection is by bringing up the parties here. Yoa cannot appeal to the American manufacturers ? A. No ; not very well. Q. As a matter of fact, do they combine with those selling their patent in Canada? A. No; not that I am aware of. I think there was some understanding about it in some way, but it would not be possible to do it, there are so many mana- &cturers here. Q. Then I suppose any importer is open to be prosecuted and without doubt "would have to pay ihe damage for having imported it here? A. Yes ; no doubt. Q. You have prosecuted some members of the manufacturing firms here, have you not ? A. Well, there have been no actions carried through. I think there was actions taken out;, but they weie disconlinued. Q. But you maintain your right I suppose under the patent laws to do that ? A. Certainly, the owners ot the patent would havo that right Q. Well, would your contract enable your companies to do that. The American companies take the action? A. It is not their place do so. It belongs to the owners of the patents, Q. Then in any prosecution you would have to move in your own name and on their behalf? A. Yes; they would have to move it By Mr. GuilUt : Q. In selling barbed wire do you dictate any terms? A. We undertook an arrangement by which the wholesale men would sell at a fixed price, and the retail men at a fixed price so as to obviate a great annoyance of one cutting the other. Q. How would that antoy you? A. It did not annoy us at all. It was per* hap3 as much from their solicitation as for any benefit that we derived from it. Q. You have received solicitation from the retail trade ? A. A good many have notified us that as they could not make any profit out of it, they would not handle it and it seemed to be necessary in their behalf to make an offer to those people who are handling this wire. 374 H. K. IVES. By the Chairman : Q, There was no attempt on your own part, bat it was at their solicitation? A< Yes ; it was a measure mutually beneficial. It did not make any difference with our prices at all. By Mr. Guilkt : Q. Has that arrangement been carried out ? A. I do not think so ; in some cases it has, but I think generally it has been very well observed. In some cases ■where there has been trouble the matter has been discussed and these people have been brought together, and I think we tended to bring the retailers themselves to a friendly understanding. The advance eonght was very small, barely enough to make it an object for them to handle it. Q. Did you stipulate that "you shall not charge more than that price"? A. Oh, no ; they might charge as much as they liked so long as it was not less than the price fixed upon. Q. Did they sign an agreement ? A. Yes. Q. Suppose that agreement was not kept ? A. We have no recourse. Q. There was no ] enalty attached ? A. No. Q. Would you refuse to sell them wire? A. No case has arisen of the kind. We would endeavor to patch it up. Q. You have an agreement among the barbed wire manufacturers that the price will be dictated ? A. Yes. Q. Does this association that you belong to provide any penalties ? A. No ; none whatever. Q. When was this arrangement made ? A. This was simply an offer that we made this spring. Q. Only this spring ? A. Yes. We never before made any attempt to dictate any price. By the Chairman : Q. There are two kinds of wire, galvanized wire and plain wire ? A. Yes ; but the plain wire is not used very much. Q. The prices you quoted was for galvanized ? A. Yes ; galvanized barbed wire. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Ot course you have not had su£Scient experience of the operation of that arrangement to say whether it has been satisfactory or not ? A. I think, that on the whole, it has been satisfactory, because all were interested in having it carried out. It was simply giving them a commission for handling it. As far as we could, we came to an understanding with those people. For instance, if a man was dis Eosed to injure his neighbor in that way, we^ would tot encourage him. We would ave the right not to sell him any wire, but any case of that kind was arranged according to the circumstances. Q. And you have the power to compel obedience if you choose ? A. They could get it outside I suppose. Q You have not couclnded to adopt any stringent means to enforce it ? A. Ho. No case has come up yet. By the Chairman : Q. How do you distinguish between the wholesalers and retailers ? A. Well, •we distinguish between the wholesalers and retailers by the number of tons they ordered. That is taken into account. We deal with each case according to the cironmstances of their business. By Mr. liaher : Q. You stated juEt now that they might get wire elsewhere. I think all the makers of wire in Canada are in this combination ? A. Yes ; the three. Q. These are the only producers of wire in Canada ? A. Yes. Q. Could they get that wire from the States ? . A. I have said before, that they brought it from the States. Q. There is no rule under the patent in the States against their sending wire into Canada ? A. No; there is nothing to prevent them. BABBED WIBE. 375 Q. How would the duty prevent the importation of wire in that way ? Do you know at all what the prices are in the States ? A. Yes ; they are very much less than they are here. Q. At what prices have they been selling in the Slates ? A. The trade in the United States has been utterly demoralized, and an enormous amount of capital has been sunk in this business. A great many manufacturers have been ruined, and the business is at a very low ebb. There have also been very expensive litigations going^ , on, that are not settled yet. Q. In regard to tbe patent ? A. Yes ; in regard to the validity of the patent. The prices have been broken by irresponsible firms, that is, companies manufactur- ing very largely, and before they could be stopped or any injunction could be had, these people have thrown quantities of the wire on the market and broken the prices. Consequently pending these suits, the Washburn and Moen CJompany have temporarily reduced their royalty in the States, and that is one reason why they can sell it cheaper there. Q. They have been reducing the royalties in the States ; they have not reduced them in Canada ? A. Not recently in Canada. Q. Is the royalty higher in Canada than in the States to-day ? A, Yes ; it is liigher in Canada than in the States. Q. Can you tell the prices in the States of the same wire that yoi are supply- ing. A. I think about 4 centf. Q. About 4 cents ? A. Yes ; about that. Q. And tbe duties? A. There is the duty of 1| cents per pound. Q. Is there an ad valorem duty besides ? A. No. Q. That would bring it up to 5i^ cents per pound ? A, Yes. Q. What is the royalty you have to pay now ? A. Fifteen cents per 100 pounds. Q. That is paid in consequence of the patent in Canada. The Canadian patent ooyers that I suppose ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q. Do you draw your own wire ? A. No ; we do not. Q. From where do you import as a rule ? A. Some from England and Ger- many, and some is drawn in Montreal. By the Chairman : Q. Do the Dominion Company draw their own wire ? A. Yesj they draw their own wire now. Datid Bobbrt Eoss, miller, of Embro, Ont., sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Are you the secretary of the Oatmeal Millers' Association ? A. Yes. Q. Have you the books with you ? A. I have the papers bearing upon the matter. Q. Have you the minute books? A. Well, yes, I have them at the hotel. (^Esbibit 38c.) I brought the minutes to Ottawa with me, but I have here all the papers bearing upon the matter. Q. This is the monthly statement of manufacture that each one makes ? A. Yes, Q. Have you the constitution, rules and by-laws of the Oatmeal Millers' Associa- tion of Canada ? A. Yes. (Exhibit 38a.) That shows everything. There are also some other papers here. (Exhibit 386.) Q. What are the objects of the association ? A. The primary object was to make some profit Q. In what state had your oatmeal business been before this association was lormed ? A. Here is a paper which shows everything. There were about sixty mills in Ontario, and four of these mills can supply the whole Dominion. 376 DAVID ROBEBT ROSS. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Have you any actual figures as to the capacity of the whole ? A. Yes. By the Chavman: Q. There aro sixty mills in Ontario, and four of them could supply the whole Dominion ; tliat is the four largest ? A. Yob. Q. And what proportion does that bear to the whole manufacture ? A. At the preBent time all these mills are running one day in two weeks. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Ooald you give what the mills are turning out ? A. The capacity of all the mills in oats is 9,300,000 bushels. Q. And how much oatmeal does that mean ? A. There are about 10^ bushels to the barrel, so that there would be about 900,000 barrels. That is about the aver- age ; sometimes it takes 10 and other times 11^ bushels. Q. What is the consumption of the Dominion ? A. 150,000 barrels. That is the quantity sold in the Dominion last year. By Mr. Fisher : Q. And the capacity is 900,000 barrels ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q When you speak of capacity you mean running night and day ? A. Oh, yes; we always ran 24 hours. It is less expense to run 24 hours than 12. Q. Is that estimate made on the basis of continuous running ? A. Yes ; con- tinuous running for 300 days. Q Well, that is more than in actual practice ? A. Well, divide it by two, and then there would be a tremendous margin after that. By Mr. GuiUet : Q. Whac is the amount which yon say is consumed in^he whole Dominion ? A. 150,000 barrels was consumed last year. Q. Do you know how much is imported ? A. None at all Q, No oatmeal imported ? A. Very little. There is a duty of 81 per barrel or half a cent per lb , which prevents it coming in. Q. Are there any oatmeal mills except those in Ontario? A. Until now, there 'were a few in Nova Scotia and New Branswick, but they are very small. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. The association is confined to Ontario ? A. There were no other mills con- sidered worth taking in, but now there are mills started in Manitoba. They did not send any out of the country until within a few nionths. By Mr. Fisher : Q. They have not sent any out of Manitoba? A. They are sending to Canada now. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Are they sending it out to Ontario or to Great Britain ? A. Well, they cannot send it to Great Britain. They are sending it to Ontario. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is there any particular Ontario mill that is sending it to the United States or Great Britain 7 A. There is a duty in the States of half a cent per lb. or $1 per barrel, and in Great Britain the market is nearly $1 per barrel lower than here. It is half a dollar or more cheaper than we can make it. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Can yoQ give us the prices here and in Great Britain ? A. Yes. Q. Give us one quotation ? A. Well, the price in Toronto for the class of meal that comes from Glasgow is $5.35 per barrel. By Mr. GuiUet: Q. What class is that ? A. Standard meal . Q. Fine? A. Yes; the same meal as we have. The price of that is 22s. per 280 lbs. in Glasgow. By the Chairman : Q. That is lees than here ? A. Yes ; a good deal less. OATMBAL. 371 By Mr. Fisher : Q. How much do you get in an ordinary barrel? A, Fine or coarse meal, 19S .lbs., but for rolled meal 180 lbs. is called a barrel. By the Chairman : Q. You could not put 196 lbs. of rolled meal into a barrel ? A. No ; except it •was a larger barrel. Q. What is your difference in price between rolled oats and ordinary oats ? A. The rolled is 75 cents per barrel higher than the fine. Q. 75 cents a barrel higher ? A. Yes. There are two kinds of rolled; one is 50 cents and the other is 75 cents higher. Q. The standard is the fine ? A. Yes ; the standard is the fine and the grana- lated is the coarse. Q. Is this your present price list? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Can you give us the Quotations of oats ; You stated just now that it was in consequence of oats being higher here than in Glasgow ? A. I can give the prices of -oats in Canada, bat not in Glasgow, although I know that they are very cheap, not over a cent per pound. Q. And then I suppose they get more meal from their oats ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q' Not more than one cent per pound in the old country ? A. No. Q. But they are worth 1^ cenis in Toronto ? A. They were 43 cents in car lots. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. All your figures are wholesale ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Sometimes car lots are cheaper and sometimes dearer ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Han it been so for years back, that oats have baen cheaper in Scotland th&a in Canada ? A. No ; that is unusual. Q. For the last three, four or five years has oatmeal been so much cheaper in the old country than in this country ? Of course we know that for this season jaat past oats were unusually high ? A. There was a short crop. Q. Ye^s, there was a short crop, so that this was a very nnusnal state of affairs ? A. Yes. Q. Before that state of affairs occurred, was it not possible for you to export to the old country ? A. Three years previous to this season there had been 70,000 barrels exported to Great Britain. Q. That would have relieved the surplus production in Canada considerably ? A. That was about half the quantity sold in Canada. By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) ; Q. But that was not more than one-fourth of the production ? A. No. Q. How did so many men go into the business ? A. Well, three or four years ago there was a good profit in oatmeal. The Government figures show that a largd quantity was exported in that year, and oats were cheap here, so that a number of new mills were built, and oatmeal men made money. That was in 1884 and 1885* Q. Give us the actual figures of exports for that year ? A, Well, in 1884, the value exported was $214,000 worth of oatmeal, and at the same time $322,000 worth of oats. I do not know whether that was exported to Great Britain or to the United. States, or somewhere else. Other years there was also a great quantity exportod- Q. Give us the value for 1885? A. $:4 1,000 worth of oatmeal and $703,000 worth of oats. Q. For 1886 ? A. $286,000 worth of oatmeal and $1,147,000 worth oi oats, Q. For 1887 ? A. $l7'i,000 worth of oatmeal and $509,000 worth of oats. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Was that in 1887 sent to Great Britain also ? A. That was up to the Ist of October, 1887. After that none was sent out. A little was sent out in the early part of the season. 378 DAVID ROBERT ROSS. Q. Are these the trade and navigation returns ? A. I sappose that they are the trade and navigation returns. Q. That closes on the 30th June each year ? A. Yes. Q When did you begin lo make new meal out of your oats ? A. The first of September. By the Chairman : Q. When was your association organized ? A. During last summer. Q. By whom ? A.I was one of the principal organizers. Q. Who is your president? A. Mr. Scott, of Ottawa. Q. Is he an oatmeal manufacturer? A. Yes. Q. He is the president, then ? A. Yes. Q. And you organized it, and the principal object is to regulate the prices ? A» Tes, and make a profit. It really became necessary, in June last, when in Canada oatmeal was selling below the cost of oats, I believe. Q. It was necessary, you thought, for the sake of your profits to organize and fix the prices ? A. Well, the millers themselves met and fixed the prices. Q. When do they meet, at the call of the president or at stated times? A. "Well, there is no particular time. There is a time appointed for the executive to meet. Q. Who are the execntive that meet on these occasions ? A. Mr. Scott, presi- dent; Thomas Martin, vice-president, of Mount Porest; Walter Thompson, of Mitchell ; James Muirhead, of London, H. S. Moore, ol Norwich, and D. Speirs, of Gait, Ont. Q. You organized last summer. How many times have you met since to regu- late prices ? A. This is price list No. 6. Q. The first of February ? A. No ; 18th February. Q. That price will take efiect on the 18th February, and will remain in force until another is issued. You fixed the price six times ? A. The prices have not i)een changed six times, but there has been a re-arrangement of prices. Q. Did you lower the prices any of these times? A. No; the prices of oats liave been constantly advanced. I believe the price will be lowered at the meeting in Straiford to-day. Q. The price of oats is a little down ? A. Yes. By Air. Gwllet : Q. How do yon account for that ? A. At the present time it is Manitoba oata oomiog in. that is keeping the price down. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Manitoba oats ? A. Yes ; Manitoba oats are oflfering very freely in Ontario. Bt/ the Chairman : Q. Whenever a change was made in these prices, it was to advance them ? A. Tea; except where we re-urranged them. I think there were four advances since the association has been organized. Q. Has the combination been satisfactory to the millers ? A. Yes. There are others not in the association, others who are selling as they please. Q. Is it not satisfactory to those who are not in it ? A. Better than before, we IkATe been making an actual profit, whereas previously we did not. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. How many mills are there in the association ? A. 24. Q. 24 out of the 60 ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What proportion are they to the whole number of manufacturers? A. The others are not in, but the most of them are fnininhed with each price list, and there have been smaller mills, and they nearly all agree to maintain prices. Q. These are all the large millers? A. One or two dropped out. Q. Who are they ? A. Mr. Russell, of Uxbridge, and Mr. Wright, of Owen Bound. OATMEAL. 31^^ By Mr. Bain ( WenttoortK) : Q. Have you put anybody out ? A. No; we have not put anybody out. By the Chairman : Q. Have you any regulations as to what you shall manufacture ? A. No. Q. I see there is a column here marked allotment ? A. That is about what they make a year. Q. And they are not to exceed the manufacture of that quantity? A. They can make or sell all they can, so long as they stick to the prices. Q. Then there is no restriction on the amount they manufacture ? A. No. Q. Then what do you do? 1 understood some mills were closed down by the asBOciation ? A. Well, those who do not sell as much as their allotment are paid 30 cents a barrel by the association. They may not sell it so readily as the others, and those who sell more than their allotment pay 30 cents a barrel for all they sell over that, to the association. By Mr. Fisher : Q. That is the way in which you get the money to pay the 30 cents ? A. Yes. Q. The one who makes over his allotted amount pays 30 cents a barrel into tho association? A. Yes ; and that is paid to those who come below. Q. Do you mean to say that you pay a man who cannot make good oatmeal 30 cents for not making it ? A. They can make it. It would be much better for them to make and sell, as the profit is rather more than 30 cents, and the man who does not make it is losing his business. Q. How does this work, one portion paying 30 cents? Does one balance the other ? A. Oh, yes, it must ; the percentage. Q. The percentage of the whole manutacture ? A. Yes. Q. What does this "short 1,()00 barrels" mean ? A. It is merely to show that some of the makers were short on the total by 1,600 barrels. It was merely added up to prove that the figures were correct. By Mr. Fisher : Q. How often do you settle up ? A. Every month. Q. That is the statement of shortage on one month ? A. That is the clearing out difference. Q. How many mills are there in that arrangement ? A. 24. Q. How many were there short ? A. 14, so there must have been ten gone over, Q. And the amount these 14 were short was exactly the amount these othera were over ? A. Yes ; just the same. By the Chairman : Q T. &J. M. Andrews, they were to make 2,000 barrels ? A, Yes ; per year* Q. And in that month ? A. He did not send in any. His sales did not come in^ This is what he is entitled to. Q. You put him short 97 barrels ? A. Yes ; and he has been paid 30 cents a barrel on those, and the next month, that will be kept off of what he has done. Q. His report was simply late ? A. Yes ; and he received that amount of money, Q. Then the next month ? A. He would pay back whatever he was paid too much. Q. Where did you get this system from ? A. We arranged it. Q. Where did you get the plan of it ? A. It is made up on the percentage basis. Q. You got this plan from some place ? A. I knew there was some plan in operation but I never saw one like this before. Q. Did you get it to any extent from anyone ? A. I saw a book at one time with part of it in . Q. What book was that ? A. A railway pool book. Q. An oatmeal pool book? A. No, railway. Q. Showing how this business should be arranged ? A. The principle was the same. Q. You have adopted their principle ? Yes. Q. From this railway book ? A. Yes. 380 DAVID BOBKBT ROSS. Q. Ah far as it woald apply to the oatmeal business? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you regalate the prices of the wholesale and retail dealers ? A. No, sir; we do not. Q. You let them sell as they please? A. Anybody who buys from us pays our prioe and after that he can sell for what he likes. Q. Do you sell to anybody ? A. Yes; anybody. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The man who buys a carload can sell for wiat he likes. A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Do you sell the same to anybody according to what quantity he buys ? A. Yes. There is so much for a carload and then there is a diflferenoe for 25 barrels and less quantities. We take so much less per barrel. Q. How often do you regulate the percentage which each mill shall produce; once a year, or once every six months ? A. We have not been going a year yet. Q. That percentage was based on the production of last year? A. Yes; some mills had been burned down and others had started up. Q. Can you tell me something about the comparison with the prices you are selling at and those of the mills not in the combination ? A. They are not all in this arrangement and they sell at whatever prices they please. Q. What has their prices been ? A. Lower. They have been getting the benefit of the combination and paying nothing toward the support of it. Q. How much lower ? A. In some cases quite a bit lower. Q. That is, they get the market ? A. I do not know that they do. Q . How is that ; how do yon explain it ? A. Some of them do not make as good meal and othfirs are not in a position to make much. Q. They have got all the trade they could get? A. They got all they tried for. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Where are these mills ? A, In this Province. Q. Also in Quebec? A. I think there are mills in Quebec. Q, Any in Montreal ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. There are two mills in Lachute? A. Yes; but not in the association. There is that Lachute mill, but they are not included in this. By Air. Fisher : Q. Are there any mills in your association which do not run at all but which you pay ? A. Yes. Q. Yon pay tbem 30 cents a barrel on a certain quantity ? A. There are some that are paid in a different way. Q. How are they paid ? A. A stated sum. Q. That was arranged when your organization was made ? A. Yes, Q. Were they running then ? A. Some were and eome were not. Q. There were those who had jawt closed up ? A. Yes ; just closed up. Q. How do they get their pay ? A. There is an assessment made on each member according to the quantity he is allowed to make, not what he actually does make. Q. That is used to pay these mills that do not run ? A. Yes. Q. How is that done — do you make an arrangement with each mill ? A. Ye« ; « separate bargain ; a verbal bargain. Q. No contract ? A. No ; whatever they would take. Q. You assess that ou the members. Do yon know how many mills there are with which that arrangement was made ? A. Ten. Q, All in Ontario? A. Yes. Q. How much is paid to them ? A. $526 per month to the whole ten. Tho lowest was $300 per year, and the highest $800 per year. OATMEAL* 38 1 Q. That is ten of the mills out of the sixty? A. Yesj there are twenty-four in the aesociation, and these ten which make thirty-four that we really control. All the others are free. Q. How many are there who sell at the same price that you sell at. You said there were a number who sold at the same price although they were not in the as- sociation. A. Only two or three mills that we hear of. All the others are merely doing a little business in their own locality. Q. Those you do not bother ? A. We send them each our price list. They were ail visited by a committee, but were only too glad to have the larger mills kept out of their territory. Q. Do you divide your territory ? A. No ; but if large mills were obliged to Bell at high prices, a miller can surely sell in his own market. That is all they look for. Q. You do not divide your territory ? A. No ; anyone can sell where he likes. By Mr. Guiilet : Q. Do you pay freights ? A. Yes ; to all points. Q. Is the price uniform to all points ? A. The country is divided into districts, but as the mills are nearly all west of Toronto, the freights are about the same from there to points east. Q. That is to your eastern limit ? A. The freight each one has to pay is about the same. Q. Is this price that you fixed for oatmeal delivered ? A. Yes ; I have a pric& list here. We have tried to make it just the difference of the ireight. Q. Were you able to make special arrangements with the railway ? A. No. Q. Each one has to make the best bargain possible for the delivery of his own stuff? A. Yes; there is no special rate. There is a special milling rate on oats^ but all millers get the same. Q. You are not able to secure any better terms ? A. We were able to get this^ special milling rate. The flour millers got it after we did. All get it alike. Q. Did you bring any pressure to bear on the mills that declined to go in ? A. No ; there have been two who went in, and one paid a certain amount, who then went out. Letters were written to him to come back but nothing more. Q, This is a voluntary association ? A, Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. What reason did they give for going out ? A. I suppose they saw that by going out and selling a little lower they could get business. By the Chairman : Q. I see here a column for expenses. What is this $700, for expenses ? A. I have explained that $525 goes to pay for the arrangement made with the mills shut down. Q. It has nothing to do with the " long " and "short " here ? A. No. Q. Those who are long had to pay $497.40, and those who were short received $497.40? A. That's it. Q. I do not understand how the Andrews, of Thornbury, are allowed 2,000 barrels. That would be 157 barrels a month ? A. No, it would not Q. What would it be? A. Here is his percentage, and he would have his per- centage of the total quantity made that month. This is his percentage of the whole. This 2,000 barrels is the firm's percentage of the 135,000 barrels, and taking the per- centage for that month this is what he is entitled to. Q. Where do you get his allotment of 2,000 barrels? A. That is for the year, and his percentage rises and falls according to the sales. Q. You have his percentage in one place 1,569, and his percentage 1,476 in another? A. This 8,000 is not counted, as there is one gentleman who is running on a different basis from the others. He was not taken in on the rise and fall. He was given a percentage first. Q. What do you mean by rise and fall ? A. He did not oome into the pool at alL 382 DAVID ROBKRT BOSS. Q. Do the whole 24 men anderstand the working of this arrangement ? A. I do not know that they do. By Mr. Bain {WentwortK) : Q. I suppose this arrangement does affect the export trade ? A. No. Q. You are allowed to make as much as you can outside of this arrangement? A. Yes ; bat they have not been able to make any, in consequence of our oats being higher here than those in the old country. Q. When prices were such that you could export to Glasgow were you in the habit of importing American oats to any extent? A. There were some taken in small quantities for grinding in bond when they got a special rate from the American roads. It was often taken by boat to Sarnia or Goderich, at low American rates. Q. I remember that a firm in our town of Dundas did that one season? A. Yes; but that mill has not been running since. They were burned. Q. Speaking of the American trade, is there any chance of you getting a portion of that American trade ? If the American market were open would it be a benefit ? A. I think it would. Q. If Canada and the United States were to drop their duties what effect would it have? A. We would have the American market. Our mills are nearer than theirs to the Eastern States. Their closest mills are in Ohio. The American oat- meal is all manufactured west of Akron, Ohio. By Mr. GuiUet : Q. What about the price of oats in Chicago ? A . I do not think they would be any cheaper than Manitoba oats. Q. Do you think you could send in a good deal into the United States ? A. 1 think we could. In the month of December there were over 12,000 barrels sold, and in the month of March only 6,000 were sold. Q. The prices being high the people ceased to use oatmeal ? A. Yes ; and flour being so low. By Mr, Fisher : Q. Do you know what the consumption of oatmeal is in the States ? A. It is very large. Q. You don't know what the production is ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. In order to compete with the United States you would have to have much cheaper oats than you have ? A. As a general thing ; we competed in Glasgow and Liverpool with them when we were exporting. Q. When did you export ? A. None this year, but last year we did. By Mr, Guillet ; Q. Do you know the price of oats in Chicago this year? A. Thirty-two cents. Q. What does it cost for freight for Owen Sound, Sarnia and other points on Lake Huron ? A. Two and a-half to three cents. Q. That was for last year ? A. Yes ; that would be about it. Q. Therefore, if you could bring in oats at ;-54 and 35 cents ? A. They "would not remain long at 50 cents in this country ; they would be very apt to go down. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) ; Q. You were looking at Manitoba oats just now ? A. Yes ; they are selling at 43, Q. As a general thing, for the last year, how has the comparison at Akron been ? A. Of course, Akron oats and Buffalo oats are just the freight higher than Chicago oats. Q. As a general rule, are oats in Chicago any higher than they are in Toronto, in carload lots ? A. Oh, no ; they are generally lower. By Mr. GuiUet : Q. As a matter of fact, is not thd freight from Chicago to Baffalo lower than from Chicago to Collingwood by vessel ? A. It would cost very little more to bring it to BaHalo than to Collingwood by vessel. There would not be a-half cent differ^ «uce on a boat load. OATMEAL. 383 Q. It would be lower to Baffalo ? A. Probably it would. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. What is the opinion of your association as to the future of the oat trade ? Are you looking to Manitoba for the supply of your oats in future ? A. No. In On- tano we have plenty of oats to spare, except this year. Q. Asa rule, when the Manitoba grain goes on to extend, won't it have the effect simply of placing our oats here in the same position as if we were competing with Chicago ? A. No ; I have heard the farmers in our section saying that they will still continue to raise oats, and they will go on competing against Manitoba in that way. By Mr. GuilUt : Q. Still the freight from Manitoba to any point in Ontario would be much moro than the freight from Chicago to any similar point? A. It depends on the question if you can get a grinding in transit rate from any point in the North- West east to Halifax There would only be the one rate to pay, and the miller then would be almost in as good a position as if he had a mill in Manitoba . In this way he would be better still, as he would get a big price for the offal in Ontario. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. That is looking to the shipping trade ? A. Yes. Q. You do get special rates? A. The mills located on the Canadian Pacifcx Eailway do get grinding, in transit rates, but the mills west and east won't grind it. Q. They let you stop off and let you have the stuff ground and ship it on ? A- At a nominal rate . By Mr. Guillet : Q. The comparison as between the cost of freight from Chicago to, say CoUing- wood, and thence to Toronto by rail, would be much less than on oats brought froio. Manitoba to Collingwood and by rail to Toronto, and grinding in Toronto ? A. There is always a surplus in Ontario except this year. Q. I am speaking of the actual cost of importing oats from any point in Mani-> toba to some point in Ontario, as compared with the cost of importing from Chicago to pame point? A. You can bring them from Chicago to Hamilton by paying a •trifle more, than you can from Buffalo. Q. Very much lower than you can from Manitoba ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. What is the value of the offal of a barrel of oatmeal ? A. It varies fu^oordin^ to the price. Q. What is the value ? A. It is about 15 cents. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What Mr. Guillet is aiming at is, that of course getting the water rate from. Chicago to Hamilton for Toronto the rate is low, but what he says is that in consee- quence of the increased distance by rail and water to Manitoba or Winnipeg to these points, that the Winnipeg or Manitoba oats could not be delivered at the same rate at Hamilton or Toronto that Chicago oats would be delivered ? A. Oats woald find their level in Toronto. The Manitoba farmers would have to take less for their oats . Q. About how much more would the freight be from Manitoba delivered at Toronto, than from Chicago? A. It depends upon how many railroads you get from here to Manitoba. Q. What are the rates ? A. The present rates are 45 cents a 100, and from Chicago to Toronto 15 or 18 cents. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Oats are not produced in Chicago ? A. I think he is supposing if Chicago ^ere brought in what effect would it have on the market. By Mr. GuiUet : Q, To ascertain if Chicago oats are not nearer otir market, and can be obtained at much less freight than from Winnipeg ? A. Others things being equal, it is & 384 DAVID ROBBET R-'SS. naatter of distance, and the farmers of Manitoba will have to take a less price, and the price in Toronto will be the same. The quantity will regulate the price. By Mr. Fisher : Q. As a general rule you have enough oats in Ontario to run your business ? A. Yes. Q. You always have a surplus ? A. As a general rule a surplus. If our sur- plus goes to New York or Britain that regulates the price. We have no surplus just now, we have to import. By the Chairman : Q. If you have a surplus now, your theory don't hold out. When you have an aasociation regulating the prices here, the surplus don't affect the price ? A. When oats are cheap here at the same time the larger quantity of oats are going out, Q. You are saying there is no surplus. You have no means of telling, you can- not tell whether there is a surplus. The very fact that oats are coming down in price bhows that there are more oats in the country than you knew about ? A. We know very well there are no oats being exported to Great Britain this year. Wo Jmow they are higher here than there. Q. How do you know there has not been any of last year's crop ? A. Possibly there was some early in the season, but since the ist of October there has not been any. By the Chairman : Q. You are making statements you have no means of knowing. Mr. B\iN — That is not a fair statement. Witness— Oats are higher in Montreal to-day than in Great Britain. Oats are actually lower in Britain than they are in Ontario. By the Chairman : Q. Wnat is the price of oats there ? A. Oats are a cent a pound there. By Mr. Guiilet : Q. You are speaking of a scarcity in Ontario. What I was referring to is, there may ba a surplus in Prince Edward Island ; there may be a surplus in Mani- toba, but in Ontario, where there are mills largely west of Toronto, there is a ficarcity ? A. Yes. Q. When you have low lake freights, which is the cheapest transportation "which can be obtained any place, that would enable you to bring down the price in Ontario to the Chicago level, if you can get oats without duty, if there is a surplus there? A. If the oats can be brought in without any duty. Q. You would have no scarcity in your section ? A. We have no scarcity any year, except ihis year. I think some six or seven years ago we had a scarcity too. Now last year there was a lot of our oats bent to Manitoba from Western Ontario. This J ear it is the reverse, they are sending them here. Of course, in Prince £dward Island, it is one of their chief sources of export. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You could not bring oats from Prince Edward Island hero ? A. No. By Mr. Bain : Q. I suppose in future there will be more oats sent from Manitoba than what is ^oing to go there? A. Oh, yes; the way it is developing there will be no more oatmeal going there. Last year I sent oatmeal to British Columbia; this year I cannot. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know the price of oats this time last year? A. I cannot tell you Uiat from memory. If it is necessary, I can send to the mill here and find out. Q There wore exported $509,000 worth of oats? A. That would be from one and a-half to two millions of bushels. Q. And oatmeal amounting to 8176,000 worth? A. Yes. ' By Mr. Bain : Q. Doug Ontario export oatmeal to the Maritime Provinces ? A. We supply the Maritime Provinces nearly altogether. OATMJBAL. ^'Ss^iL? -:!:ii^a^ 385 By the Chairman : Q. They don't manufacture much ? A. I think they are making a little more this year than formerly. By Mr. Bain : Q. For the local wants ? A. Yes. By Mr. Giltmor : Q. What is the cost of building a fair oatmeal mill ? Ai There is one mill running here worth $30,000. By Mr. Bain : Q. What is her capacity ? A. 225 barrels a day. You will get a very good mill for $8,000 or $10,000. It costs about the same as a flour mill. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You Baid a little while ago, it took 10^ bushels of oats to make a barrel of oatmeal? A. Yes. Q. How much is the refuse worth? A. It depends a good deal on the location what you get for it. It is worth from 15 to 20 cents a barrel. Q. The refuse on 10^ bushels is only worth 15 cents ? A. This year it is worth more. Q. Your barrel is 196 pounds is it not? A. Yes. Q. lOJ bushels weighs nearly 400 pounds? A. Yes, but there is only about 19 or 20 pounds of meal coming out of a bushel. Q. There must be 200 pounds of refuse ? A. Well, there is no gauge. There is only a few pounds of offal left. There is a great shrinkage in drying. I think there is not over 5 pounds to the bushel, of offal. Q. It takes lOJ bushel, 357 pounds, to make 196 pounds of oatmeal, that would be 161 pounds, between drying up and offal; About what weight of offal is there ?^ A. 4 or 5 pounds to the bushel. Q. That would be 40 pounds to the barrel, what would it be worth at the present time ? A. 15 to 20 cents on the barrel. Q. What does it cost to manufacture a barrel of oatmeal in your mill ? A. It is generally, when we run steady, that the oflfal would pay the hands. Q. How many barrels would you make in 24 hours? A. 90 barrels. Q. Water mills? A. Yes. Q. How many men do you employ in it? A. From 3 to 6 men. Q- To make 90 barrels how many men does it take ? A. Well, 6, I think, would make 90 barrels. Q. It requires 6 does it ? A. Yes. Q. Then the offal would pay the whole expenses of the manufacture? A. Pay the hands, yes. Q. More than the hands ? A. The hands would amount to $8.00 or $9.00 a day. Q. The offal would be 90 times 15 or 20 cents, which would be $13.50 or $18.00 ? A. When we run steady we don't get that price for offal. By Mr. Bain : Q. Feed is high this year? A. It h scarce. Q. What did you get for it this time last year? A. I cannot tell. We are getting about double the price just now we were getting in former years. For the best kind of offal we get 60 cents a 100, and from that down to 40 cents. There are three kinds of offal. 1 have sold it, some of it for $1.50 to $2.00 per ton, and the out- side hulls I have thrown down the river. Q. What proportion of it is there ? A. There is not over two pounds to the bushel, probably worth 60 cents, half a cent a pound, but for the hulls at the present time we get pretty good prices. Q. What do you get for hulls just now ? A. $7 or $8 a ton ; I think some of the city men use them instead of oats, chopped. We used to sell them for packing eggs, but now it is not the egg packers who are buying them, it is the feed dealers who are buying them. S— 25 386 DAYID ROBERT ROSS. By Mr. Fisher : Q. About what value is your mill. Do you know what your 90 barrel mill will cost ? A. I got it for about halt its value three years ago. Q- I don't mean that at all; I mean what would a 90 barrel mill cost ? A. My mill now would cost from $10,000 to $12,000. By the Chairman : Q. What did it cost you ? A. I fitted over a flour mill to an oatmeal mill and it cost me $5,00o to fit it over. By Mr. Fisher: Q. I suppose a 100 barrel mill would cost about $4,000? A, You can build much cheaper a smaller property and less capacity. Q. 1 mean a capacity of 100 barrels ? A. A mill with a capacity of 100 bar- rels would cost from $12,000 to $15,000. By the Chairman : Q You have a flour mill and an oatmeal mill ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any combination in the flour business ? A. I think the flour mills would be only too glad to get one if they could. Q. There is no combination then ? A. No. Q. But there is a combination in the oatmeal mills ? A. There is an assooiation. Q. Do you find the profits very satisfactory ? A. Well, I am not doing much in flour. Q In which are the profits the most satisfactory? A. We make a sure thing in the gristing, but it is a small quantity. Q. Why do you not manufacture flour? A. One reason is that I cannot see much profit in it. Q. There is no money in it ? A. No. Q. But you do find a good profit on the meal ? A. We do not complain of the profits if we could only make the sales. Q. Bat you will make sales ? A. The prices have been kept up, but they are lower to-day. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Why will you lower the prices ? A. One reason is that the oats are lower, and another is that meal is coming in from Manitoba. By Mr. Guillet : Q. It has got the benefit of our market ? A. The benefit of our association, I think they could bring it in and undersell us at the prices our oats are. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is the Manitoba meal good ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Have you attempted to regulate what you shall pay the farmer for oats ? A. No. Q. You have not attempted to do so ? A. It was talked about, but it could not be put into operation. Q. You made an arrangement ? A. Well, we talked about it. Q. What was the arrangement ? A. That each one should pay a certain price to the farmers at their mills, and the majority did not think it would be carried out. Q. So that you did not try to do it ? A. We did not try to do it at all. Q. You have your minute book down here ? A. Yes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. If you had American oats free here, yon could keep out the Manitoba meal, could you not ? You say they are coming in now, because your oats are so much higher than in Manitoba ? A. I do not know, I am sure, what effect that would have. If we could get American oats laid down cheaper than Manitoba oats and if there was a market for the meal, why we would take Chicago oats every time. By Mr. Fisher ; Q. You would buy where you could get them cheapest ? A. Yee. OATMEAL. 387 By Mr. Guillet : Q. Yoa say Chicago oats are 31 cents and 32 cents per bushel ? A. We coald take in Chicago oats now if they were lower. Q. Yoa told me the price of Chicago oais was 32 cents a bashel ? A. Yes. Q. Then if there was no duty yoa coald bring them in for three cents a bashel to any port on Lake Huron ? A. Yes, and with allowing for taking them to the mill, &o., they woald cost 38 cents per bashel. Q. What are oats selling at in yoar neighborhood ? A. Forty cents in Toronto. That is the car lot price. Q. At that rate you would get your oats two cents a bushel cheaper ? A. Yes. Q. That would be a difference in your favor and would bring the prices down ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Did you give the quotation for May oats or the present quotation ? A. May- oats. I think that present oats are a little cheaper. ByMr.Fisher: Q. What are the quotations for to-day — April ? A, I cannot say. Q. What were the prices for a few days or a week ago ? A. About a couple of oents difference. Q. That would probably be about 36 cents then ? A. Yes, or perhaps 37 cents. Q. And you are paying now about 40 cents to tbe Canadian farmer ? A. Yes. Q. What is the present duty on Chicago oats ? A. None, if we export tho product. Q. They are then ground in bond? A. Yes. Q. Then how is it that you do not get Chicago oats ? A. We cannot export. Q. Not for export ; you would have to pay 10 cents duty ? A. Yes j we have more oats in Canada than we need for our trade. There is possibly some oats sent out from Prince Edward Island now, but they are cheaper down there. Five years out of six we have a surplus in western Ontario. Q. Then, as a matter of fact, tbe duty on Chicago oats does not influence the price of your oats ? A. Of course if there was no duty and the freight was low, it would keep oats down. It would just add to the value of the oats if we had a short crop. The value would be the cost price and the carriage to the country to which they were coming. We can get it that way now by exporting the meal. Q. But the price is regulated by the competition in Canada — by the supply ia Ontario? A. Yes. Q. Entirely ? A. Yes, by the home supply. By Mr. Bain ( WentvoortK) : Q. Did you ship any oats from Ontario formerly ? A. Two years ago there was a large quantity shipped to the old country, along the Canada Southern. Q. You stated just now that the Manitoba meal competed with you and was likely to. What is the freight on the finished article and on the oats down here ? Would it be an advantage to them to make it into meal and then ship it ? A. I think it is just about the same. Q. A barrel of meal would cost just about the same as ten bushels of oats ? A. No. There is 100 lbs. in a barrel of oats. They will deliver it in Toronto the same as in Montreal, so that we have the carriage from Toronto to Montreal against us. Q. They charge the same rate per lb. for meal as for oats? A. Yes; that would be against our farmers. Q. In the meantime it strikes your trade? A. Yes; and if we have a good crop next year, as we promise to have, the farmers will have to take less for their oats. Q. If the Manitoba oais are good for meal, there will be a tendency towards a milling trade growing up there ? A. Yes ; the same as in Western Ontario, where the mills are. Q. Have you any idea of the capacity of the oatmeal mills in Manitoba? A. There are three or four mills up there — one in Winnipeg, one m Portage fa Prairie, and one in Brandon. 3— 25i 388 DAVID ROBERT ROSS. By the Chairman : Q. You say the price of oats in your place is 40 cents ? A. Yes. Q. And you sold a barrel of rolled oats by the car load for how much ? A. To what point ? Q. To Toronto? A. $16.10. Q. And twenty miles away from your place ? A. The same. Q. And it takes lOi^ bushels to the barrel. A. For rolled oats it takes more. Q. How much ? A. Twelve bushels. Q. For rolled meal how much ? A, About the same. Q. About lOJ bushels? A. About 10^ bushels. Q. At 40 cents per bushel that would be how much? A. $4.20. Q. And you sold it for $5.85. A. No ; you could only take the average price between these three ? Q. The average price would be $5.60? A. The average price would be about $5.45, $5.35 to $5.60, and $5.60 to $5.85; the average being about $5.45. Q. You say there is a standard for oatmeal. Of 100 barrels how much would be standard ? A. About 50 . Q, And how much granulated ? A. 25 of each of the others ? Q. Of each of the others ? A. Yes. Q. How much would that average. I make it $5.53 ? A. Yes. Q. The raw material costs how much ? I think you said $4.20 ? A. Yes. Q. And the offal pays for the manufacture ? A. It pays the expenses^ By Mr. Fisher : Q. You said it paid the wages ? A. Yes ; the hands. By the Chairman : Q. Well, now, take an average ? A. Ob, it does not pay that now, because we are doing nothing. Several mills are about idle. We are doing no export trade. Q. $4.20; what does the barrel cost? A» 30 cents. Q. That would be $4.50 ? A. Yes ; and the freight. Q. How much is that ? A. It would average 26 cents. Q. What is the freight to Toronto ? A. 22 cents. There is also the freight to Kingston. Q. Where do you sell the most of your product ? A.I think I sold the most of it in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. By Mr. Quillet : Q. But the price is higher there ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. You pay 22 cents to Toronto; what do you pay from your place to Halifax ? A. 68 cents to Halifax and the same to St. John, and 22 cents to Toronto. Q. Your freight to Toronto is 22 cents, and your freight to places west of Toronto would be somewhat less ? A. Between Toronto and London less, and when you get west of London higher again. Q. That would be 79 or 80 cents a barrel profit. Ninety barrels a day is your capacity? A. Yes. Q. That would be quite a large profit ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher: Q. What is the price in Halifax? A. $5.80. Q. What is the price in Toronto? A. $5.45. Q. And what is the difference in freight ? A. 46 cents. By the Chairman : Q. What is your allotment, 2,800 barrels ? A. Yes ; I am entitled to sell 234 barrels in the month. That would be about 9 barrels for 26 days in the month. By Mr. Fisher : Q. When yon say the offal pays the wages, do you mean the wages the whole year round on what you sell in this country ? A. No. Q. Or would you have to run all the time to make the offal pay the wages ? A. The trouble in the way we have been running oame in this way : I built a mill along OATMEAL. 389 ith many others larger than we required. Until last year we did not know how lany mills there were, or how much they could do. Q. It was the good business that tempted you into this a few years ago ? A, We have always been in the business. We doubled our capacity and others did the same. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. Have you any other prospect except the remedy of the suppression of pro- duction ? A. If we could get a bigger market ; or if the export trade would spring np, or a market be opened in the United States. Q. If we had reciprocity it would help you ? A. We would be on an equality with their mills. Q. The advantage you would expect Irom that would be, that you would be close the American market ? A. The closer we are to a market the better, the cost being equal. By the Chairman : Q. How do you account for oats being 40 cents at your place and 47 cents in Toronto ? A. That is street recripts. Q. Do you buy it by the car load when you are buying now? A. If we bought it by the car load it would cost us 43 or 44 cents, the same as in Toronto. Q. Where do you buy ? A From farmers' waggons just now. If you look at the exchange market you will see that I am right ihere. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is the car load quotation in Toronto ? A. Yesterday it was 43 to 44 cents. By the Chairman : Q. Manitoba oats has frozen wheat in it ? A. Yes ; and the oatmeal has wheat in it too. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. Has that been done to work off the frozen wheat '/ A. I do not know, bat it was there. Q. What percentage would there be of frozen wheat ? A. I have seen samples of meal and there was wheat in it. Q. Is lit noticeable to a large extent ? A. It would not hurt the oats for feed. By the Chairman : Q. You make each man in the association make a statutory declaration before a notary? A. Yes. (Bxhibit 386.) Q. Who collects these assessments ? A. They are paid in to the treasurer. Q. Who is tfce treasurer ? A. J. D. Moore, of St. Mary's , he makes a draft. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Is there a large demand for oatmeal in Great Britain ? A. Yes, sir, now. Q. Where is that supplied from ? A. From the mills of the United States. Host of the millers in the United States — I know a great many of them — went from Canada. Two of them had the mills that I have now ; they went over and built a mill. Q. Are they exporting ? A. No ; it is only for the home trade. Q. But with reference to the trade of Great Britain ? A. They only sell refuse^ the very poorest siftings. Q. I am speaking, however, of other dealers? A. Yes; they came in compe- tition with us, but we held our own. Q. Do you know whether the oats that were exported whole or in their natural state were ever manufactured over there ? A. I do not know, but I do not think 8<\ because it is Russian and Swedish oats that are coming io. Q. Do you know whether it is possible to make the same quality of oatmeal from our oats as they make over there ? A. I do not know, but I have heard it stated by men coming out that tbe meal was better thare. Whether it is or not I -cannot say ; I have never used any of their meal. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You have never come in contact with the Scotch oatmeal millers ? A. No. 390 DAVID ROBBBT BOSS. Q. I have heard that they consider the Scotch oats better than any they import? A. I know that they do consider them better. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do they use Kassian and Swedish oats now ? A. Yes ; I do not think they nse much of their home oats. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You say some millers have gone into the United States from your neighbor-^ hood to manufacture there. What induced them to do that ? A. They saw more money in it. They have gone there within the last dozen years. I know three or iour who have gone. I meet them occasionally, and they are still carrying on busi- ness there. Q. Do you hear whether they are satisfied with the work there ? A. I think so. Q. Do they seem to think that they have done better than if they had stayed here? A. They do not care much about Canadian mills getting in. I hoard one of them ask what they wouM do when the Canadian mills got in, and he said it was time enough to fight the devil when you met him. Q. Have they a combination as you have? A. I think they have. Q. You are not familiar with their combination ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. Who are thete men you refer to ? A. John Forest, formerly of Woodstock ; Alex. Forest, formerly of Bmbro. Both the Forests were in oar neighborhood, Stewart, of Chicago, formerly of Ingersoll, and Douglas is in partnership with him. They have mills, one in Chicago and another in Cedar IJapids. Douglas is an Amer- ican. There is another mill in JoUiete which, I think, a Gait man is running. There is one good thing that this association has done, it has induced the mills to make good meal. Q. You say you shut some mills down ? A. But they are paid. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) ; Q, You pay 10 mills to stand idle ? A. But they did not make good meal. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Could your mills stand, if the duty were removed from both oats and meal ? A. We cannot be any worse than we are. Q. You would be contented to have competition here if you could get an entry into the United States ? A. Yes. The Committee then adjourned. House op Commons, Ottawa, 20ih April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the chair. The Chairman. — I want to call the attention of the Committee to the evi- dence of Mr. Eoas, Secretary of the Oatmeal Millers' Association . 1 asked him for his minute book, and he said that he had left it down at the hotel, but promised to bring it up after the meeting was over. When he brought it up to me I noticed that although he had said that the association was formed during the summer — I think he said in June — the first of the minutes here (Exhibit 38c) are dated Novem- ber 4th, 1887. I called his attention to it and he could not account lor it but said he was not secretary at that time. The writing was in another hand than hU. A close examination of the book showed that at least the ^ix first leaves were torn out, as the leaves are left on the opposite side, and the first meeting reported here refers to the bylaws and ofi&cers of the association and executive committee, showing that the organisation was fully formed before this first minute recorded here. Mr. Boss Also stated that there was no combination or no arrangement to buy oats ; that it was brought up bat nothing whatever was done, but I find by the minutes of the meeting held in Toronto on December 2ncl, 1887: "Moved by W. Thomson, second- ed by P. Martin, and resolved, that Mr. Payne, Stratford, be appointed oat buyer for STOVES. 391 the members of this aesociatioti, and that each miller baying car-loads of oats shall pay Mr, Payne the sum of $1.50 per car for each car bought, and that the oat baying be under the supervision of the secretary. " It was also resolved that all millers buying car-loads of oats at any over the price Avhich may be fixed by the association, which, until further advised, shall be 33c. or less for oats weighing not less than 34 lbs. per standard bushel, shall pay Mr. Payne the sum of 81.50 per car the same as if the car had been bought by Mr. Payne, and that Messrs. Mcintosh and Barclay be exempted from this resolution and also Messrs McKay & Co. and Rnssell be exempted on any lots bought by them- selves east of the Northern and North-Western Eailway," showing that there was an arrangement for the purchase of oats as well as for the sale of oats, and, strange to say, these resolutions are in Mr. Boss' own handwriting. At this first meeting recorded here the society appeared to be in a pretty flourishing condition, for they had appointed Mr. Boss secretary at a salary of $200 with expenses for one month. House of Commons, Ottawa, Srd May, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the chair. Henry Hat ton, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Would you give the Committee your name, occupation and address? A. Henry Hatton, bookkeeper, Hamilton. Q. You are secretary of the St ove Makers' Association ? A. Canadian Iron Founders' Association. Q. Who is president? A. William Burrow. Q. Who ig vice-president ? A. W. J. Copp. Q. Canadian Founders' Association; what class of manufactures does that include — agricultural implements ? A. No ; just stoves. Q. What firms comprise it. How many firms are members of it? A. About ITcr 18— IBIthink. Q. All the stove manufacturers in Canada? A. Not all I think. Some do not belong to it. Q. Do all the large ones in Canada ? A. Yes ; all the large ones. Q. What are the objects of this association. Have you a constitution? A« I Lave only been f ecretary for the last two months. Q. AiQ these the books ? A. Yes ; that is the letter book. Q. Where is your minute book ? A. It is here. (Exhibit 46a and 6.) Q. You have no printed constitution ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. When was the association organized ? A. I do not know. By the Chairman : Q. You have only been bookkeeper for two months? A. Yes; but I have been in the stove business about six years now. I do not know anything about the asso- ciation only from writing a few letters for the president. I should rather say I am assistant book-keeper, because there is one head book-keeper for the firm. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You have been assistant book-keeper few Burrow, Stewart & Milne for the last 6 years ? A. Yes. Q. And are now? A. Yes. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Are the foundries in the Maritime Piovinoes in your association ; in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia ? A. No. 392 w. J. copp. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you know how many stove foundries there are in Canada that are not in your association ? A. I cannot tell. Q. Do you know whether any efforts have been made to induce them to oomo in ? A; [ have not been acquainted with it long enough to say. W. J. Copp, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. "What is your came, occupation and address? A. William J. Copp, iron founder, Hamilton. Q. Of the firm of— ? A. Copp Bros. Q. How long have you been in the business ? A. In the business of an iron founder for about 30 years. Q. In stoves all that time ? A. Yes ; and agricultural implements. Q. Are you in agricultural implements now? A. Xes; as well as stoves. Q. What implements do you make ? A. Ploughs, harrows and similar imple- ments. Q. Do you manufacture largely of these articles ? A. Pretty largely. Not so largely as some establishments. Q. Have you a combination in prices in those articles ? A. We have not. Q. What are the articles you manufacture outside of stoves ? A . Agricultural implements. Q. Name the articles ? A. Ploughs, cultivators, rollers, harrows, seed drills — Q. Fanning mills ? A. No. Straw cutters, sulky ploughs, grain crushers, &o. Q. Therelis no combination or association regulating the prices for these articles? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. We had one witness before on that subject whose evidence came in casually, but I wanted to ask you so as to know. He was making implements you have not mentioned. We wanted to have the whole range. Is there a combination fixing the prices of stoves ? A. There is. Q. What classes of stoves do you manufacture ? A. Every class I may say. Q. Coal stoves ? A. Coal and wood particularly and parlor stoves. Q. Kitchen stoves and parlor stoves ? A. Yes ; everything. I don't think there is anything in the line of stoves we do not make. Q. You do not make precisely the same stove as some other manufacturers ? A. We do not. Q. Each one makes his own peculiar style? A. Yes. Q. How are the prices then of the different styles ? How are the prices of these different styles regulated ? A. They are arranged o n the basis of weight and orna- mentation. Q. Who arranges the prices ? A. Well, the committee generally, and then it is brought np in the association and then adopted. Q. Wno are the committee ? A. There are various ones. Q. Membors of the association ? A. Yes ; members of the association. C^. Are they paid experts? A. No, sir. Q. Just of the association ? A. Just members of the association. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Are there many stove manufacturers not in the combination ? A. Oh yes, a large number, sir. I suppose there are 40 perhaps. I am speaking in the rough. There may be 60, sir. Q. Have there been any efforts made to bring the m in ; have they been iuvited to come in ? A. Not for some years. By the Chairman : Q. Betore that ? A. We have invited them years ago to come in, some of them ; not all of them. We have made frequent efforts in that direction. STOVES. 393 Q. The men out mostly are small dealers ? A. There are a few good dealers^ generally small dealers. Q. Are there any large manufactureri outside the association ? A. Yes. Q. Who are they ? A. William Clendinning and Ives of Montreal, these are the largest manufacturers. Q. Do they send much of their wares westward as far west as Toronto or Ham- ilton ? A. Very little. Q. They don't interfere with you ? A. "Very little. Q. Do you send your stoves down to Montreal ? A. Yes. Q. Some of the western manufacturers are outside of the association ? A. Yes ; there are western manufacturers outside of this association. Q. Who? A. It is difficult for me to give you their names. There is a party in Tiisonburg, in Guelph acd another in Picton. Q. Small manufacturers ? A. Yes; running small shops ; There are a good many up the Ottawa outside the association ; a great number. By Mr. Guillet : Q. I suppose you agree upon a uniform price for similar classes of goods ? A. We do ; yes. Q. Any fines imposed if the prices are broken ; if the rules of the associatioa are broken ? A. Yes ; some parties are fined if they break the rules. Q. Have any gone out of the association ? A.. Very few indeed. I don't know of one. Yes, I remember two. Q. Has the effect of your association been to keep up prices ? A. I don't think it, sir. Q. Not to raise the prices, taking into consideration the cost of labor and th« advance in material, what these have made necessary ? A. I think it has made oar prices uniform, that is the peculiar feature. All our prices are really very low. By the Chairman : Q. Are your prices such as to afford you a profit to carry on your business t Ai No, sir, it does not afford a satisfactory profit at the present time. Q. Satisfactory is a comparative word. Is it sufficient to enable you to carry on jrour businet^s ? A. Ob, yes. I don't think it pays more than interest on the capital. Q. Who fixes the prices ? A. The association. Q. Yourselves ? A. Yes. Q. A man, when fixing his own prices, would naturally feel inclined to use hin^* self pretty well? A. Well, there are laws laid down. The basis, of course, is fixecb Q. Who makes these laws? A. The association. Q. Yourselves? A. Yes, ourselves. Q. You fixed the price in accordance with these laws ? A. Yes. Q. You give yourselves your profits. You surely would not deal out profits 'with a niggardly hand ? A. Well, there is so much competition in Canada that yon could not, even were you so inclined. Q. Where is your competition from? A. From ourselves. It really comes ftom the ar'gociation itself. That is where the great competition is. Q. The competition to sell. The competition among yourselves does not redaco the prices one fraction then ? A. Will you allow me to explain. For instance, tha association has been in existence for 21 years. The spirit of the association has been Q. Let me ask one question now. You have been in existence 21 or 22 years P A. Yes. Q. The aesociation always fixes the price? A. Yes. The spirit of the associa- tion has been to keep the prices down to the lowest possible point. The outside competition may have something to do with that, I cannot tay. The prices havo been so low that there has been no great inducement to go outside the associatioa so far as the prices are concerned. That has been really the spirit of the existence o£ the association. Q. Does the association get along pretty harmoniously ? A. Yes, very. 394 w. J. oopp. Q. Do the members comply with the law ? A. Oh, yes. Q. Do you manafactarers not consider anything else than the prices fixed? A. In the association ? Q. Yes? A. No; no great difficulties beyond the fact that occasionally there are really mistakes made that are not owing to a disposition to undersell. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do you administer any form of solemn declaration to members of the aasociation? A. Yes; there is a monthly declaration. Q. Is it not in the form of an oath ? A. Simply that they agree to comply with the spirit and letter of the association. Q. Have you a copy of that? A. You will find it in the minutes. I think it u in 1880. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) ; Q. Has it ever been more profitable than now ? A. Oh, yes ; very much more so. Q. How long is it since the profitable years? A. Well, I should think the profitable years were about 4 or 5 years ago, Previous to that there were very good profits Q. Previous to 4 or 5 years ago? A; Yes ; very fair profits. Q. The prices then were fixed by the association the same as they are now ? A» Jast the same way. By Mr. Guillet : Q. This is not a statutory declaration ? A. No. Q. It is jast a statement that they have not broken the laws of the association ? A. That is all ; yes. By Mr. McKay : Q. Is that done by the book-keeper or clerk ? A. It is generally considered some oi the members of the firm, still the book-keeper can make the declaration. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : ^ Q. Was there as much outside competition in those days as now ? A . Well, I should suppose not. Q. Is that the way in which you account for the prices being higher then or the ^marginal profit being greater then than it is now ? A. I should account for it from the simple fact of the statement I made a few minutes ago, that the great competition «omo8 from the members of the association. It comes in this way, that we have developed the stove to such a degree that there are very heavy expenses connected inUi it, and really in Canada it is a small market. It really exhausts all the profits, that is the real secret of it. By the Chairman : Q. How do your prices compare with American stoves in the United States ? A. Well, taking the article of base burners, producing the same base burner pre- cisely that the Americans do, our prices are less than theirs. Q. At home ? A. In this country. They are less than the market prices in ibsit country. Q. So the prices in Hamilton are less than the prices in BufTalo or Detroit ? A. Ted. Q. Same stoves ? A. Yes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. You make the same patterns ? A. We do very much in base burners, and oonseqaently you may draw a line in the sale of base burners. By the Chairman : Q. What is the difierence ? A. I should suppose, taking it on an average on the best class of goods, we are 10 per cent, less than the American manufacturers. Q. That is on coal stoves and base burners ? A. On the base burners ; the ftrst class. Q. How about cook stoves and parlor stoves and wood burners? A. Well, j^Qod Bhops 't I am speaking of the good shops ; I am speaking of the first-class shops. STOVES. 395 Q. The eame quality of goods ? A. We are about the same. You can get a very low grade of production, and the Americans run that way. Q. What do you call the low grade ? A. There are certain grades like these used in New Tork, Philadelphia, and the large cities. They are simply light, cheap goods, and these are a little less than our prices. Q. How is it they are producers of cheaper goods ? A. I will give it to you in a cheaper way. I was last week at Danville, and I never was through Pennsyl- vania before. I was all through their works there. They have these iron furnaces right there producing iron, and they have Lehigh coal right at their doors, which Mr. Vincent told me cost them $3.25 per ton, and this gives them a great power of producing a very cheap goods of a certain class. Q. But the higher class of goods, do they make them at Danville ? A. They do, yes ; but they do not make the best class. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Why cannot they make the best class of goods with these facilities ? A. You ;;et a very large amount of labor on the best class. This labor is no less than our- own ; it is no cheaper. By Mr. Guillet : Q. In some of the combinations which we have enquired into we find that there is an arrangement by which they limit the production of the article manufactured. Do you do that ? A. We do not. 1 have explained to you the spirit of the combi- nation and this is outside our natural limits. We make no limit in any sense. Q. You do not restrict the dealer who buys from you as to prices ? A. Our spirit is against that and we have no limit in the manufacture. They are perfectly free and we have only one rale, that we don't make the same goods. Q. Therefore there is competition, inasmuch as you vary the appearance of the goods? A. Yes. Q. I suppose the same class of goods might vary very much in appearance and decoration ? A. Yes ; that is the additional price. By the Chairman : Q. Any man can come along and buy your goods ? A. Yes, sir ; any man. Q. You have a customer in one place selling your goods, do you confine your sales to him or do you sell to anyone who buys any quantity that you wish to sell ? A. Different houses have different plans. Some will supply two men in the city or town or three men, while others will only supply one. They are perfectly free to act as they see fit. Q. The association does not interfere in that ? A. It is left to individual de- cision. By Mr. Quillet: Q. You don't all manufacture one kind of stoves ? A. No ; we try to vary, Onr spirit is to vary the kind. Q. Therefore there is competition in the sales? A. Oh, yes; very much. Q. They have their different classep, different styles. The patterns may vary and the decoration may vary and they may be at the same prices ? A. They are not classed in that way. They are only classed on a cast iron basis and the deooratioa has its price. Q. It is classed upon the weight of metal ? A. Yes. Q. Still there is a good deal of competition in the sales ? A. Oh, yes. By the Chairman : Q' So much a pound for metal. How much? A. Well, they vary. They vary according to the rate and class. Q. What are the prices ? A. Some will go as low as four and a-half cents and others as high as six and two-thirds cents a pound perhaps. Perhaps some will go as high as seven . Q. Are the decorations added to that? A. Yes. Then we pay freights. Q. Yoiipay the freights where ? A. To all points which produces the amount received. When we say we get seven cents for the very highest class of goods that voald not be so, because we pay the freights. •S96 w. J. copp. Q. The freights may be a cent or a half cent ? A. Yes j the freights are $1 some* limes to extreme points. Q. Do you pay the freights to Manitoba ? A. Manitoba is under a different •arrangement altogether. Q. The prices vary from 4^ to ? A. Six and two-thirds. By Mr. McK&y ; Q. You don't fix your prices for your customers ? A. Noj our customers may sell at a profit or sell without a profit. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What was the cause of the last advance ? The recent 5 per cent, advance. There were two advances ? A. One advance. Q. What was it, a 5 per cent, advance or a 10 per cent, advance ? A. A 5 per cent, advance. Q. Dae to the increased cost of labor ? A. The workmen forced us into a 10 per cent, advance on wages and the duty advanced fully 10 per cent, more and the 6 per cent, does not cover the extra cost of our production. We have to buy bolts and everything of that sort at an advance. We only advanced 5 per cent, while we were forced to pay about 10 per cent, advance in wages and other things. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Ttiat was in consequence of duties being placed on iron ? A. The duties and wages both. There was a strike and we held off about seven weeks because we were opposed to it simply because we thought the men were getting quite enough wages. By the Chairman : Q. What do you pay? A. It was piece work in nearly every department. Q. What wages do they earn ? A. They will earn — the mechanics will earn from $2 to 53 per day. Q. These are the iron moulders ? A. Iron moulders, stove moulders, nickel platers and employees of the various departments. Q. They have had from $2 to $'i per day ? A. $2 to $3 per day. By Mr. McKay:, Q. The ornamentation you put on your base burners now has a tendency to raise the price? A. Yes. Of course you cannot put on the ornamentations without a large expenditure and these ornamentations have become very elaborate. Q. And changing of patterns ? A. Yes ; that is a very expensive thing. By Mr. Gdlmor : Q. These laborers would get from $2 to $3 a day for steady work? A. 'No, sir ; the moulders don't, simply from the fact that the requirements of the country don't demand it or won't admit of it. Q. This is the class of men who get the highest wages ? A. They do ; yes. Of course it our moulding shop is stopped it affects the laboring man as well at $1.25 a day. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Does your association do anything else besides regulating the price? A. Yes ; it regulates patents, for instance. There is a rule that you must not make the same pattern. These are the two great features of the association. Q. la it not for discussing the cost of goods, &c. ? A. Well, discussing the cost of goods and everything of that sort, everything, in faot, connected with it. Q. Have you an association fund ? A. Yes. Q. What does that fund amount to in a year ? A. It amounts to about $4,000. Q. Each year ? A. We have no fund used for any purpose, no other fond at all in any shape. By Mr. McKay: Q. How much did pig iron rise per ton ? A. About 11 per cent. That ia about the duty, $2.40. By Mr. McDougall (Pictou) : Q. That is on the value of the raw material It would not be 10 per cent on the value of the product ? A. No. 8T0VM. 39t Q. The increase in the iron duty would not amount to 10 per cent, on the valno oftheetove? A. No. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Increase on the raw material ? A. Two and a-half per cent, or about that. Then there is the wages, which are higher, and every other thing that goes into it. Q. Do I understand you to say that raw material had advanced 10 per cent ? A. Tee; 11 percent. By the Chairman * Q. What is the weight of a wood stove ? A. It would average about 2*75^ pounds. Q. What price do you sell that for ? A. That would sell, perhaps, net for about $17. Q. About $17 ? A. Yes. Q. And you have added to the price of that how much ? The price would average about $16.25 and we call it $17, about 5 per cent, would bring it up to about $17. Q. Seventeen dollars is about your selling price ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. So that the increase in the cost of a stove weighing 275 pounds would be less than 30 cents ? A. About that. Then there would be on the mould about 10 per cent. Q. And you have not raised the prices of base burners? A, Yes ; we have raised the price. Q. In February you had not raised the price of your base burners, I think, I mean your firm ? A. That is correct, we had not advanced on base burners. Q. I see one of your circulars here eays : " Please note that an advance of 5 per cent, has been made this day on copper reservoirs, hollow-ware, agricultural furnaces and all stoves, with the exception of base burners, self-feeding pot stoves, and Globe and Cannon stoves." That is your advertisement on your postal card ? A. Yes. That refreshes my memory now. We thought that the prices were such that w© really should, if possible, keep the prices down. We were out of the season for them* My mind was not fresh on that point. Q. What do you mean by Globe and Cannon stoves? A. These are simply round bellied stoves. Q. Coal stoves ? A. Yes. Q. Not base burners ? A. No. By Mr. Grillmor : Q Do you send stuff to the Maritime Provinces? A. Yes, we send to St. John, Halifax, Fredericton, St. Andrews and Moncton. I generally travel there once a year myself. I like the trip. By Mr. McKay : Q. There is enough competition outside of our association to regulate prices if you put them up too high ? A. Yes. Q. If you were inclined to do anything like that competition would meet it ? A. Outside of the Dominion ? Q. Yes ? A. Yes, outside of the Maritime Provinces. Alexander W. Morris, of Montreal, manufacturer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What do you manufacture ? A. We are in four manufacturing businesses, cordage, binder twine, bags and plaster, that is calcine and land plaster. Q. You know of the binding twine association ? A. There has been one. Q. Were you a member of it ? A. Yes. Q. For how long ? A. Well, it was continued through 1886 and for a greater portion of 1887. Then of course it was running for the months of January and 396 ALEXANDER W. MORRIS. February of this year, bat it had no effect on the trade of the coantry this year because there were no sales. Q. What was the object of the association ? Have you a constitution ? A. No, the constitution ard origioal papers are down in Halifax, but I can explain it to you. Q. Did you not have it printed ? A. No ; it was just an arrangement. Q. How many firms joined the association ? A. Five . Q. Was that all the binding twine manufacturers of Canada ? A. It contained "the whole of them in 1886, but one in 1387 did not enter. That is the new one which started in Brantford. Q. Was it in operation in 1886 ? A. No, not in 1886. Q. When did you cease to be a member of thid assoaiation ? A. Just a few weeks ago, only about six weeks ago. I cannot give you the exact date. Q. How do the prices of Canadian binder twine compare with the prices in the United States, say for 1887 ? A. I think for the greater portion of the year the Canadian prices were very much lower. At the close of the season in the United States there was an arrangement among all the manufacturers, and the prices were reduced considerably, bat for the average of the year, I think the Canadian prices were considerably lower. I mean the prices to the home members. Q. You mean to the Canadian farmer ? A. Yes, to the Canadian farmer. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You say the prices were considerably cheaper ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. The prices to the dealer ? A. Yes. Q. What were your prices last year ? A. In 1837 our prices were 10^ cents less 5 per cent., and freight paid to destination through Oatario ; and the Owen Saund freight, from Montreal to Owen Sound, allowed for shipments to Manitoba and 30 days' time. Q. These were the terms. Do you know what were the prices ? That was the price daring the whole of 1887 ? A. That is what we sold the whole of our output for in 1887. Q. What were the prices in 1886 ? A. The prices in 1886 were 10 cents, less 5 per cent, and 2^ per cent. There was a trade discoant of 2| per cent., and a cash discount of 5 per cent, for the same freight allowances. Q. Do you know what the American manufacturer's prices were in 1887 ? A. Well, I can hardly answer that question . They varied a good deal ; but I could easily get the information for you; I would not like to answer it off hand. I think I could get it even here in Ottawa, but I am not quite sure. Q. What was the price of the raw material during last year, the manilla ? A. Well, of course, you should take together the cordage and binding twine. On bind- ing twine there are two prices for sisal and, for manilla. Some years we used half and half, bat this year we do not use sisal, because it was quite as dear as manilla, and manilla being the best fibre, we used that altogether. Q. What is the difference in the quality, the tension of the manilla ? A. The manilla is a much longer fibre and much stronger. Q. What is the breaking strain of binder twine ? A. I should think manilla would run more than sisal. Q. What is the strain ? A. Twine ranning six hundred feet to the pound, the breaking strain of manilla would be about one hundred to one hundred and ten pounds. Q. That much ? A. Yes. Q. Is that required for binders ? A. It is not necessary on a new binder, bat on a great many of the old binders it was required. Q. I understood that about 80 pounds was all that was required ? Q. On the new binder it is not necessary to run even so much. Q. Bat on the sisal how muoh would the strain ran ? A. Sis&l would ran about 600 feet or perhaps 425 feet. BINDBR TWINS. 399 Q. So that for the same tension the manilla woald be aboat 20 per cent, longer ? A. Yes. Q. And therefore 20 per cent, cheaper ? A. Yes. Q. What are the objects of this association ? A. The agsociation was mn on & pooling business. It was not an original idea at all. It was copied from the Ameri> can Cordage and Binder Twine Pool, that is each manufacturer had a stated per- centage of the pool. Q. He had a stated percentage, what do you mean by that? A. It was divi- ded up on the basis of 100 per cent, and each manufacturer obtained a percentage of the whole according to the value and size of his factory. Q Do you mean that all the selling was done through one agent ? A. Oh, no; we made an arrangement giving each manufacturer a certain percentage. For in> stance, we had thirty-three per cent., about one-third. Q. That was the quantity that you were to make ? A. Of the quantities that were to be sold in Canada, and then at the end of each month we made a statement as to the quantity that we sold in that month, and that is put into the hands of th& superviser, a man appointed at the head of the association, and if we have exceeded our percentage we paid a stated amount per pound into that pool, which was divideit among the manufacturers that ran short of their percentage. Q. You calculated how much would be required for the country's consumption in the season ? A. Each manufacturer could sell as much as he wished but if ho sold more than his percentage he would have to pay so much per pound for every pound over that percentage in that pool. Q. You were to have one-third. How much were you permitted to sell without paying into that pool ? A. One third of all that was sold. Q. You could not tell until the season was over ? A. No. Q. Then you made no estimate of the quantity required for the season ? A. Ob, we made an estimate. Q. How much did you sell ? A. In 1886 about 600 tons and in 1887 about 650 tons. Q. Your estimates were a little out for the whole country, were they not? You had not enough in the country to supply the demand ? A. Last season there was a shortage to a certain extent in Manitoba, Tnere was an unusually large harvest there and farmers did not give their orders until the last moment. We had to send twine up by express during the latter part of the season, but farmers were surprised at their great crop. There were plenty of machines in the country. Q. A surprise all round ? A. Yes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. What is the present price of binder twine ? A. That I could not answer. I am not in the combination. Q. You are making it ? A. I could not answer that. Q . Are you not connected with the association ? A. No, not now ; if I gave yon my present price it would be giving it away to my competitors. Q. You know what their prices are ? A. No, sir ; I could not tell you. By the Chairman : Q. You saw the evidence stated in the papers ? A. You mean Mr. Connor's -evidence ? Q. Yes ? A. The association was then in existence. Q. Is the association in existence now ? A. No. Q. You went out of it and afterwards the association broke up ? A. The asso- ciation is now broken up entirely. There is no cordage combination or no binding twine association in the country at the present moment. Q. Do you know what the prices were when the association was in existence? A. Yes; I could give you them but 1 could not tell now. Q. We have them ? A. Very well. 400 ALSXANDEB W. MORRIS. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are prices teDding lower ? Is there any change in the price of binder twine ? A. There has been a drop on the cordage, bat the binder twine has not. It is not the season for it yet. By the Chairman : Q. How much have the cordage prices dropped ? A. I could tell you about. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You can give us the percentage ? A. Yes ; I could give you about the per- centage. Q. As far as binding twine is concerned the market is not established yet ? A, Kg; we have not started to send out binder twine. There has been a drop in manilla rope, for instance, and cordage of about ten per cent. Q. Since the combination was broken up? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. This ordinary half inch rope, what do you sell that for? A. Eope was Belling for about llf cents, but the price is about ten per cent, lower than that. Q. The binder twine and the manilla sells at about the same price. A. Yes ;. but it is much harder to make . Q, Is it twisted more? A. It is twisted much finer. A spinning machine will not turn oflF half so much. The ordinary rope yarn is about double the size of binder twine. Q. That is an easy operation ? A* Oh, yes ; that is an easy operation. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Has there been any drop in the raw materia ? A. Yes ; the market is declining. From the present appearances binder twine and cordage would be very aoinch lower next year than they are this year. Q. You say there is ten per cent, drop in the price of rope ? A. Yes ; quite ten per cent, on the raw material. By Mr. Quillet : Q. At the present time? A. Not for present delivery, but for future delivery daring the next two or three months. Hemp is very much sold at future delivery. Tou very rarely buy it on the spot. Q. The chances are that the prices will be lower ? A. Yes ; for next season. For instance, you can buy hemp for September next very much lower than you can get it now. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you buy your raw material ? A. All the iiemp comes from the Pfaillipine Islandd, but we buy most oMt from brokers in New York and London, £ngl£uid. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What is the cost of this raw material ? A. It is cheaper because the crops »re turning out very much larger than they had any idea of. By the Chairman : Q. Was there not a combine among some of the American buyers by which they bought up all the raw material that they could lay their hands on ? A. The New York manufacturers joined together under the form of a company, the National Cordage Compatiy, and they bought up all the manilla on the spot and to arrive for months bhead, and effected a raising of prices. Q. Is that still operating ? A. It first started with five and now there are Aboat twenty manufacturers in it. They are gradually drawing in all the American manufacturers. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Do you make a lower price ? Have yon been in the habit of making a lower prioe than at home ? A. Yes. 1 would be perfectly willing to file this circular which will show you why I left the combination. By the Chairman : Q. Are the prices of binding twine any higher now than when you had tho oombination. You are quoting prices no higher than before? A. ^o. BINDER TWINB. 401 Q. You would be willing to sell a little lower ? A. We have not given any quotations in binding twine lately, because we had most of our orders booked, and in addition to that we had 500 tons of binding twine in stock, and a great deal of that was manufactured the latter part of last year. It was £42 a ton in January, but now you can buy for September delivery for about £30. Q. The manufacturers are xiot likely to cut prices ? A. They cannot cut prices unless they make a loss upon it. Mr, Chairman, I would just like to make one state- ment with reference to this combination. It worked in this way ; we were obliged to pay in every month one and a half cent per pound for all that we produced and sold above our percentage. That went to strengthen the small manufactories in th© country. It was not helping us and it was not helping the trade. Q. You could reduce your prices that much ? A. Now, we are simply able to give that benefit to the trade and the country instead of to the small manufactories. By Mr. Quillet: Q. How much ? A. One and a half cent per pound. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of fact have you reduced the price ? A. I said that we have not done anything on binder twine as yet. On binder twine we hardly paid anything into the pool, but on cordage we paid every month . By Mr. Guillet: Q. I suppose that this 500 tons that you have on hand was made in the combi- nation and therefore a large portion of it was taxed to that extent ? A. No; it was not taxed . There is only a tax on over production. Q. Was there any over production ? A. No ; we would not know until the end of the season. ^ By the Chairman : Q. You said it was only on the sales you made ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You had a prospect of having to pay on that 500 tons your portion of it ? A. No ; because our percentage would be greater than 500 of the whole. Q. That is not the whole of what was made ? A. We are still manufacturing. Q. If you had entered into this combination this quantity would be liable to this discount ? A. There is no portion of it liable unless I receive my percentage. Q. You said on binder twine you had exceeded ? A. No ; I meant on cordage. We ran just about our percentage on binder twine. Q. You could have made more? A. Yes; if the country had required it and we had thought so. Q. Would you have made it but for the fear of paying ? A. No, it is not that : it is the fear of carrying it over. Binder twine runs up into a large amount of money. By the Chairman : Q. You simply went out of it because it was to your interest to go out ? A. That is it exactly. I felt it was to my interest. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You want to run to your full capacity, and not pay anything into the pool ? A. My competitors have as much right to cut under me as they please. By Mr. McKay : Q. You are large manufacturers ? A. We manufacture about 50 per cent, of the binder twine and cordage. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You are manufacturing every month ? A. Yes ; this would not have been anything into our pocket. By Mr. McKay : Q. You can undersell these smaller manufacturers ? A. We think we can man- ufacture cheaper by manufacturing on a large scale. By the Chairman ; Q. How many men have yoa at work ? A . 220 just now. We will have over 300 before the end of the year. 3—26 402 ALEXANDER W. MORRIS. Q. Are they mostly men ? A. Yes; men and boys and women to a certain ex- tent ; about 30 women. Q. What wages do you pay to your skilled men? A. Our ordinary laborers get $1.20 and $1.25. We do not pay any man.less than $1.20, and we pay up to $3 per day. By Mr. Guillet : Q. In the combination — I am not quite sure that I remembe; rightly — you regu- late the prices at which the goods should be sold, as well as the quantity to be sold ? A. Yes ; of course . By the Chairman : Q. But you cannot say that prices have been reduced since you went out ? A. I believe some of the maDufacturers have cut prices, but I have not sold a single pound of binder twine since the combination was broken up. Q. This circular of yours did not produce any eifeot ? A. It has had the effect of our firm getting a great many congratulatory letters. Q. No orders? A. No; because I have not tried to sell. We have a great many orders booked. There is no trouble in selling our twine, as we have a good name. By Mr. Guillet: Q. I 8ui)po8e you took orders to deliver the twine at market prices ? A. We guaranteed that if there is a drop, we will give the benefit of it. Q. You have a large number of orders booked? A. Yea; about 750 tons. Q. Before the combination was broken or since? A. Most of these orders we booked last fall before any prices were established. Q. Prices are not established yet ? A. We cannot tell what prices will be yet. In cordage they have been cutting very hard and when deliveries of binder twine starts they may try the same tactics. By the Chairman ; Q. Your orders are taken for the 1st of June ? A. They start on the 1st of June. We may start at the latter end of this month, and then it continues until the end of July. Q. Your share of the pool was about how many tons according to last year ? A. I cannot remember last year, but I can remember about what the figures were for 1886. In 1886 we had one-third in the pool of the whole amount manufactured. We paid into the binder twine pool and we manufactured about 600 tons, but the whole amount sold by all the manufacturers in the combination was a trifle under 1,800 tons, so that we paid into the pool about $500 for the whole year. It was only on a few tons. Q. That would be at the rate of 1^ cent per pound? A. Yes. Q. At the present time you have as much manufactured or you have orders taken this year for more than your share ? A. No, I have not. Q. I thought you said you had orders for 750 tons ? A. Our share would be greater than that for this year. Q. From the larger consumption ? A. Yes. Q. How many tons do you expect to make by the end of the season ? A. About that or 800 tons. Q. I thought you had that much sold that you knew of ? A. No ; about 600 tons. Q. But you have orders for 750 ? A. Yes. Q. Then most of your orders are in ? A. Yes ; but as I said these are guaran- teed rates, that is if the prices are reduced we will reduce ours. We are not deliver- ing yet, so we do not know what the price will be. Q. Have the prices already been fixed by the association, or are the prices fixed already— association prices? A. In most oases; but we have heard of sales at less. I iieard of one only yesterday. Our sales were made at those prices, but have to come down to what the price is. I guaranteed that I will give as good prices as my com* petitorg. BINDER TWINB. 402 Q. But you have sold nearly the whole output of your twine for the year ? A. We generally sold that in a week. It is all sold. Q. And it is sold at association prices, and after you had made the sale you went out of the association ? A. Yes; we broke up the two combinations on cord- age and binder twine. In the binder twine business we have taken mo3t of our orders every year before prices were established. We have a certain number of customers, and we guarantee that we will sell at as good prices as any other. As I said, I do not know how much eflfeot this will have on the season's business, as a large portion of the twine is made out of very expensive material. Next year it will be lower. By Mr. McKay ; Q. You subject yourself to the risk of loss? A. Yes; if my competitors break away I will follow. By the Chairman : Q. Bat you broke away in the first place? A. Yes; but if they break, our buyers are guaranteed that they will get the benefit. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. Mr. Connors is in your combination ? A. He was in, but there is no com- bination now. Q. How many were there in the combination ? A. Five. Q. You were proportioned out what each one should make ? A; Yes ; we each had a stated percentage. Q. What proportion of all the quantity that was to be made for Canada did he make ? A. On binder twine last year he had a percentage, I think, of 10 per cent, of the whole ; and I think he manufactured about two tons of twine. Q. flow much did he get last year out of the pool, as you call it ; as near as you can tell ? A. I think about $6,000 or 87,000. Perhaps hardly as much as that; it might be $5,000. Q. For not making rope ? A, No ; not making binder twine. Q. You had a combination on rope too? A. Yes. I cannot tell you how much he got out of rope. Q. He got his proportion ? A. Yes. Q. He drew out largely ? A. I know he drew out, but I do not think he drew out very largely on rcpe. By Mr. Guillet : Q. He only made two tons of binder twine ? A. That is all. Q. He is making more now ? A. I do not know. Q. He speaks of having sold several carloads ? A. I do not know. By Mr. Qillmor : Q. I did not know definitely, but he seemed to get a boom somewhere or other. I live in the county next to him ? A. There is no doubt that the smaller manufac- turers have been benefited very largely by the association. It is the same, I think, "with all pools. They are run on that principle* The Committee adjourned. House of Commons, Ottawa, 10th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the chair. Samuel Rogers, sworn. By th£ Chairman : Q. What is your occupation ? A. Undertaker. Q. What is your address ? A. 19 and 21 Nicholas Street, Ottawa. Q. Now we want some information from you about an organization. Are you a member of the Undertakers' Association ? A.I am, sir, a member of the Under- takers' Association of Ontario. 3—26^ 404 SAMUEL ROGERS. Q. Have you a special one for the city of Ottawa or is it one for the whole Province? A. I believe, m Ottawa, we have no regular organization. There was a little meet- ing a short time ago among the other undertakers, and my son was present, but I don't know what the object of it was at that special time, but we have arranged our affairs here on a similar plan or basis of the head association of Ontario. Q. You have an organization then for the whole Province of Ontario? A. Yes. Q. Do you meet annually ? A. Yes ; the annual meeting is held in the city of Toronto. Q. There was a meeting held there a short time ago, were you present? A. No, 1 was not, it was held in September. My son was ther^. Q. Is it an organization of undertakers only or undertakers and manufacturers? A. I don't know whether the manufacturers are members of the association or not. There is an agreement between us the same as if they were members of the associa- tion that they bell to those who are associated only. They don't sell to any other nndertaker. Q. Who was it formed this association first? A. The late Mr. John Young of Toronto, and Mr. J. D. Mclntyre of St. Catharines, were the principal movers in the matter. Q When was it organized ? A. Jfour years ago ; I attended the first regular meeting. Q. Where was it held? A. At Toronto. Q. You formed an association ? A. Yes. Q. How did you get the members; was there a large attendance? A. At that time 1 think there was about 360 odd, at the first meeting. Q. Were there that many present at the meeting ? A.I think that was about the number, 3^0 or 365. Q. You had nearly all of the undertakers in Ontario present had you ? A. Oh, no, we have over 800 now, and there may be more than that since the last meeting. Q. How many have you in Ottawa here? A. There is Mr. Moody. Five in the city of Ottawa. There were two others but they have given up business. Q. Who are the officers of the Ontario association ? A. I don't know the names of the officers this year. I could not positively give you the names of any of them. Henry Stone, sen., I thick, is the president for this year. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Who is the secretary ? A. A man named Hayle. Q. Where does he live ? A. In Cannington. I am not sure, I think that is the place. Q. Stone is the president; Hayle is the secretary. Who is the treasurer? A. I think J. B. Maclntyre, of St. Catharines. Q. Have you got a constitution or by-laws ? A. I have. Q. Did you bring it with you ? A. Yes ; I have it in my pocket. Q. This was adopted on 16th September, 1885. (Exhibit 47 6.) It sets forth the proceedings of the convention that took place ? A. On that date. By the Chairman : Q. Have you got a copy of the by-laws ? A. I have it somewhere. My son is away from home. He takes charge of theee things and it is possible they are locked up in the safe, and he forgot to leave the key with me. Q. The organization then controls the whole trade of Ontario ? A. Principally ; the recognized manufacturers sell to the members of the assooiation or associated members only. They won't sell to any other person. Q. The association regulates who shall be admitted hereafler ? A. Well, yes ; they have that power. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Have you any power in your local association here to exclude or prevent members from joining. A. We can, sir. Any new man who wishes to join or go into buflineBS would have te get the consent of the majority of the trade in any town. UNDERTAKSRS' COMBINATION. 405 There are five undertakers in Ottawa and he would have to get consent of three. That is the case all over the country, you have to get three of the members. Q. Those two, why did they go out of business ? A. Oh, they could not make a living out of it I think. One was a carver and he found he could do better at his trade than by attending to the undertaking business I think. Q. He could get supplies as freely as before ? A. There was no organization at that time, not when the first one went out. Toe last man never attempted to join. Q. These five are all men who belong to the association ? A. Yes j the five now working here are members of the association. Q. Well, then, if a new member wished to join, it would be for the majority of those members now to say whether they would admit him or not ? A. Yes ; that ^as the case. By the Chairman : Q. The result is you have to decide if anybody shall be in the trade with you or not ? A. Yes ; we have that power. Q. And the manufacturers bind themselves not to sell to any person but those in the ansociation ? A. Not to sell to any but those in the association . Q. Who are the manufacturers ? A. R. Philp & Co. are the largest. Q. Who else ? A. J. W. Thompson, which used to be Watson & Thompson, and there is another the Ontario manufacturers', I don't know who compose the company. Their mauufaoturing place is Ridgeway and they have a wholesale store in Toronto. Q. They manufacture in Ridgeway and have their wholesale place in Toronto ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Do they leave you to regulate your rates ? A. There is nothing said aboat rates. I do precisely the same as I would if I wasn't a member of the association. Q. In the locality here ? A. We have no arrangement that way. Q No tariff of charges ? A. No, we understand we charge from $5 to $10 for our hearse. We charge for a child's hearse $5 or $6 and tor my best hearse we charge $8 or $10. By the Chairman : Q Is there a uniform price in these Chrea companies you speak of ? A. Yes ; in coffins and caskets but not in the linings and trimmings. By Mr, Guillet : Q- They can be cut freely then by anyone? A. No; they will not sell any article in the business except to those who are members of the association, but there is an understood price between the manufacturers for coffins and caskets. They are bound to sell them at a certain price, but trimmings, linings and handles they can sell -as they please. Q. There is an arrangement as members you must observe as to. coffins and caskets ? A. Among the wholesale manufacturers. We have no combination individually at all. I am not bound to sell my casket at the same price. These gentlemen sell me that way but I can sell just as I please. By Mr. Boyle : Q. There is free trade within the local organization ? A, Yes. It is the same with the association in Toronto, the head association. By the Chairman : Q. Do you think the manufacturers have a pretty good profit on their caskets and coffins they make. You know the material ? A. Yes ; I suppose they have. They are very nicely gotten up and their prices of courae vary accordingly. Yoa can have high class goods or cheap class. By Mr. Boyle : Q. How do they compare in prices now as before this organization was started ? A. Just about the same I think. I think the styles are altered, and I think they are making better caskdts and I think the charges are abDut the same ,as ever they were. They haven't raised the price in any way that I am aware of. 406 SAMUBL ROGERS. By Mr Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. Trimmings are in the eame arrangement as caskets ; they are not sold W anyone either ? A. No, sir. They won't sell any article, not even a screw, to any one who is not aesociated with us. Q. I suppose this trade is a special trade. They don't combine trimmings with ordinary hardware or any other business ?, A. No. Q. Is it a special trade by itself ? A. Tes, a special trade. Q. These dealers in trimmings, are they separate from the casket manufac- turers? A. They usually carry on the whole thing. One man keeps the whole, supply. Each one has his own. There are three in Toronto. Q. How is it about trimmings, and handles, and all that ? The Chairman— He says the manufaeturer keeps the supply of all the funeral' requisites. Witness. — Philp makes near all he sells; I think hardware as well as the other. By the Chairman : Q. A man wanting to start into business he is not free to start unless he gets the consent of the others who are in the same trade in that place ? A. That is the .mle. Q. Do you think that is a fair rule ? A. Well, no ; I hardly think eo. I would not object personally to any one starting in Ottawa. I would object to this : If he could not start in a respectable manner and have proper things to do it with I would object. If a man came out properly with a good hearse and casket I would say "go ahead, do the best you can." By Mr. Guillet : Q. Would you supply a coffin alone to a person who required a coffin only, per- haps to convey it by ordinary vehicle, without the hearse? A. Sometimes we do not send our hearee. We fiequently sell coffins to persons in the country, and in the city a man scmetimes hires a cab. Q* Do you require them to leave in your hands the arrangement for the cabs ? A. I do not require it of them, but it is generally left in my hands. If you have the misfortune to require my services you perhaps order the exact number of cabs, A cabman may be doing your family work and you will engage him. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : ' Q. You usually supply everything ? A. Yes ; we usually supply everything. By Mr, Guillet : Q. You could compel them to buy everything if the members of the association chose to say that ? A. Yes ; we could compel them if we chose. By Mr, Boyle : Q. Do the manufacturers carry out the rules of these local associations in every det il, no matter how unreasorable it may be ? A. I do not thitk they have any- thi* g to do with such a local organization as we have in Ottawa. Q. You said you would divide up; that is you will sell a coffin separately. Sup- poB J a rule of yoor organization here was that everything was to be supplied and one of your members objected. Would he be reported to the manufacturers and be excluded from supplies? A. I do not think he would go that far. I suppose we voold have the means of reporting him for acting contrary to what we thought right. Q. Your association here might be fair but others might not be. You might compel customers to do things unfairly ? A. We work the same all through. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q, Sir. Boyle wished to get at this fact: whether the local organization estab- lishes its own lules or whether the lerger oiganizations governs them all? A. I think the local organization govern their own aflfairs so long as they are not incon- .Bistent with the general association. By Mr, Quillet -• Q. Suppose a man went to you for a casket and to your neighbor for the hearse ^ Jl.. 1 would not supply him on principle. tTNDBRTAKBBS' COMBINATION. 407 Q. As against the regulation here ? A. We have none here. I think we ar^ joined together on the slenderest string possible. By Mr. Boyle : Q. The point I want to arrive at is, how far do the mannfaotarers control your local organization, or how far does your local organization control the manufacturers T A. It is the same throughout Ontario ; the manufacturers will not sell to you unless you are a member of the association. By the Chairman : Q. Is there an annual subscription list ? A. We pay $2 a year, but we pay $25 for joining. I only paid $2, being on the first list. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are not your prices very much the same ? A. There is no understanding. By the Chairman : Q. Have there been any increases by the manufacturers lately ? A. No, sir j sometimes a certain article may be improved on, but there has been no general alter- ation. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Supposing a manufacturer is established and is not a member of the associa- tion, would the members of the association be free to deal with that manufacturer? A. No. Q. If you did you would bo expelled? A. I suppose they would be expelled. There is one such manufacturer in Toronto and another in the eastern townships. They sell their goods to members who are not in the association. Sometimes men will start independent of the associated members. Q. Suppose you have served a family at the funeral and there is no payment made at the time, and there is some delay, would you report that to your brother members ? A. I never think of it. I give my customers all the time they want. Q. If they were in default would you report them ? A. No. If I had dealt with you and yon did not pay me and you happen to require an undertaker's ser- vices again, and I saw you going into another undertaker's, I would go and tell him " you had better look out for him. He has been owing me for four or five years and ] advise you to be careful." Q. I have a letter to that effect. An undertaker who supplied the Indian Ser- vice states that if the Department does not pay him he will instruct the other undertakers and they will refuse to bury the Indians ? A. I do not know anything about that. My eon has been running the business for a year or two past. 1 only feel I am bound to the association by word of honor. I do the best I can for the people I have to do with. Q. There is no agreement in the head association or your local association as ta the prices at which undertakers shall sell certain classes of goods ? A. No. I think the country undertakers objected to anything about prices because they were more than they could get in the country, but they did not in the city. You will find that a hearse runs from $5, $7 to $10. I never read half of those by-laws. Q. Are you bound to observe those prices ? A. They are there I know. By the Chairman : Q. What price caskets do you sell ? A. There is a difference between a coffin and a casket. We 8ell caskets from $60 up, according to the class and trimmings. Some are trimmed very plain. Q. Up to what price ? A. $176 for one we hid once ; black walnut with gold trimmings such as has been used but once in Ottawa. I got $175 . Q. White wood compares with rosewood ? A. Yes. We charge $60, and that is the cheapest casket I sell. Q. Well, what does that cost you ? A. The casket itself I think laid down here would be, with $1.25 carriage, about $16. Then there would be the trimming and our labor. Say $14 for the casket. Q. What would the trimmings be ? A. Handles, lining and plate. 403 SAMUEL BOGEBS. Q. It costs yoo $14.50 or $15 laid down ? A. Yes, about that. I suppose we should make about 840 or $45 on the actual cost of the casket* Then we have to trim it and go to the house, and perhaps the next day bring it down to the drawing room and carry up our posts so that everything is included in that price. By Mr. Boyle: Q Is there no fee except charge for the casket? A. No; I never charge any- thing for attendance. Q. The hearse is extra ? A. Yes ; the hearse is extra. $5 for a child and $10 for an adult. By the Chairman : Q. What is the cost of trimming on a $60 casket? We put handles down at $5.50. Q. That is what they cost you ? A. Yes; $4.50 to $5. The plate $2.50 engraved. Lining about five yards and one-half or six yards at say $1.10 or $1.25 per yard according to the quality. Then there are other expenses amounting to a couple of dollars more. Then it would be worth about $1.50 to trim it. Q. It takes five yards at $1.10 a yard to trim it ? A. Yes, for a six foot casket. There are the wide ends and you will find that five yards will hardly cover a six foot casket. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You charge for the shell ? A. Yes, $3 extra for the shell. We are charged extra for the shell. Q. You get them where you get the coffins ? A. Yes. Q. They cost you how much ? A. $1.80 and the carriage about 50 cents. We do not reckon to make a cent on shells. It costs 50 or 75 cents to deliver them. We do not make anything on shells. Q. What is the cost of your $100 coffin? A. $75 or $80, varying according to the trimming. By Mr. Guillet : Q. These caskets are not covered outside with cloth ? A. No ; it is the lining inside and the stuffing that I speak of. We do that ourselves. We get the bare box Mid we do all else here. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I asked you the cost of your $100 easket ? A. We reckon the cost at $60 and we have our labor added. By the Chairman : Q. You have more profit on a $75 or $80 coffin than on a $100 one? A. In some cases but not always. We cannot do with 5 per cent, or 10 per cent, profit as we do not work only about two-thirds of the time and we have to have the same staff of men and horses. People have the idea that undertakers make immense fortunes but I have never seen a rich one yet. Q. Do you think the combination benefits the manufacturers more than the undertakers? A. I do not think it does. There are the same number of caskeca and coffins required. It is merely to keep out men who are not fit for the business and to do it respectably. Q. What object is therein that. What particular interest have the undertakers in having a thing dooe respectably. You do your own respectably and in proper order and well, and what difference is it to you if some other man in the same busi- ness does not? A. It would be a discredit upon me. Some people would speak con- temptuously of me on his account. Q. They would rather give you credit. They would say: '* There is the way Mr. Bogers does his boniness" ? A. I would get the benefit in that way, but I should not like the name spoken of with that disrespect. By Mr. Quillet : Q. You get a discount on your goods ? A. Yes, 10 per cent, on wooden ware and 6 per cent, on trimmings. The Committee then adjourned. undertakers' combination. 409 House op Commons , Ottawa, 8th May, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade Combinations met this morning, Mr. Wallace in the chair. ' A. B. Bolton, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Give the Committee your name, occupation and address ? A. Albert B. Bolton, at present a painter, but used to be an undertaker. Q. Of what place ? A. Village of Bolton. Q. Would you tell the Committee the circumstances of how you were formerly in the undertaking business and now you are out of it ? A. The circumstances were just these : My father was undertaker in the village of Bolton for .^0 years. He died a year ago last January. I conducted the business for about six months, but, of course, his estate was in the hands of the executors, and the hearse ana business were sold. At least the stock was sold to the other undertaker in ttie village, and the hearse was sold to a wholesale firm with whom my father dealt. Q. Give the name of that firm ? A. R. Philp & Co., of Toronto. Before the hearse was removed from the estate I tried to buy it, but they would not sell it to me; that is the executors would not. I wanted to continue the business, as I was left alone with my mother ; but they would not sell it to me, because they had their own reasons, and I had mine for not coming to terms. It was turned over to R. Philp & Co., of Toronto. I went to them, and I said to Mr. Philp in the presence of witnesses, " Mr. Philp, 1 haye come down here to bay my father's hearse." He said : '* Mr. Bolton, I cannot sell it to you." Q. Your father's hearse was sold in Bolton ? A. Yes ; sold on my father's estate ; from just where I left it after the last funeral. He said, " Mr. Bolton, I cannot sell it to you." I eays, " Why not, Mr. Philp ?" He says, " I cannot sell it to you." I said, " Mr. Philp, I have the money in my pocket to pay you for the hearse." AH he asked was SiOO. " I have the money in my pocket, and is not my money as good as any one else's ?" He said, " No ; you are not a member of the association. There is another member of the association in the village, and I dare not sell it to you." I said, " That's a little kind of strange." I said, " If I have the money to pay for it why can't you sell it to ma ?" I knew that my father was a member of the association, but 1 knew nothing of the working of the association before that. They just put it in that way. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Did you offer to become a member of the association ? A. I did not offer, but I could have become. Q. I mean in your negotiations ? A. No ; he refused point blank because I was not a member of the association. I have understood since from members of the association in as gooi standing as Mr. Philp, that if I had got the hearse I could have become a member of the association in spite of them. Q. Is there anything in the constitution that would have enabled you to have overcome that difficulty and to have got the hearse ? A. Nothing that 1 know of. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Were there two undertakers when your father was in business there ? A. Yes; but the other untertaker started business after my father did and my father was a member of the association when the other undertaker started and if it had not been for my father he could not have become a member. My father was a little too eatjy with him and allowed him to become a member of the association. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Is It necessary that a local member of the association should give bis consent ? A. Yes; (Exhibit 47 b and c) and a certain gentleman told me last Saturday that I had to thank the very man my father befriended for being hoisted out of the busi- ness. Ho would not give his consent. Q. You understand that it was necessary to have his consent before you could become a member ? A. Certainly. 410 A. E. BOLTON. Q. Is that in the constitution ? Yes, it is ; but I understand that if I had got that hearse I could have become a member of the association as my father's son. Q. You could have continued the connection? A. Yes; although they did ob- ject. This gentleman told me last Saturday that if I had secured that hearse there was nothing that could have kept me out of the association ; that Mr. Dodds, the op- position undertaker, could not have kept me out. I was refused the hearse simply on the ground that he would not sell it to me. Q. In consequence of this refusal you are not able to say anything about the in- ternal working of this association farther than that they shut you out ? A. That is all ; they shut me out. There is the constitution that my father had (laying books on the table). By Mr, McKay : Q. If you had got that hearse you could have gone on and continued your father's business ? A. Certainly. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is there anything in the by-laws that provides for a son continuing his father's basiness ? A. I am not posted in them at all. Q. This was only an opinion of a member of the association? A. I am not posted at all. I did not enquire further into it. I went that far as there was a friend of mine present and I thought we could start a business in opposition to the aesociation. We went to the Toronto Exhibition and examined a number of hearses. We took a fancy to one and thought we would order one like it. The next question was where we could get our stock. We could not get it from H, Philp & Co., nor from any member of the aseociation ; but we undersltjod that there were several un- dertakeis in Toronto working outside of the association. We called on them and they thought we were tiying to pull them for a little information in order to give some of the manufacturers that were in connection with the aseociation away. Perhaps it might be eo. I would not eay it was so ; that we were trying to pull tbem to give theee manufacturers away who were giving them goods and were pulling the aeso- ciation. They thought we only wanted to get a pull on these manufacturers that they were obtaining goods quietly from ; but we were not doing so. We were simply trying to find out whether we could get goods without having to do with the association . Q» You failed to get the goods ? A. We could not get them. We could not find out where we could buy them. This was T. B. Elliott & Co. They thought we were simply pulling on them to get a lead to give them away. We were not how- ever ; but they would not give us any pointers. By Mr. McKay : Q. One gentleman who gave his evidence here stated that there were a largo nnnLber of undertakers throughout the country not in the combination ? A.I would like to know where you will find them. I know this that the very two gentlemen who came down with me, said to me when we were coming down on the train : " We will give you the first chance to buy that hearse." I knew their business. I said : "Gentlemen, I know your business down this morning. This was that I was going to see E. Philp & Co. about the hearse* There were two others going down at the eame time. As econ as I saw them on the train I said : " Gentlemen, I suppose you are on the tame bosiness as I am on," and they said they gueesed they were, and flays one of them: "What bueinees are jj^ou down on, Bolton?" Isaid: "lam going down to buy my father's hearse, if I can, I want it." Said they : ** and then you thall have the first chance." All three of us walked up to E. Philp & Go's, together, and going up they said : " Now, you take the first chance at it, if you can- not buy it, we will try and do it," and I tried to buy it. I asked Mr. Philp, right in their presence, about the heurse, and the answer he gave me was that he could not sell it to me, because I was not a member of the association. By Mr, Bain (Weniworth) : Q. Did he sell to the other parties ? A. He sold it to the other parties, and as It BO happened, they were not members of the association, and he has been very sorry Jdit it ever since. undertakers' combination. 411 By the Chairman : Q. Did he get into trouble by selling to them ? A. Certainly he did. He has had several accounts cut off on account of it. After he had sold that hearse to the parties he did sell it to, of course it was known that they were not members of the association. It was well known that they were not members of the association. They had bought out the local man all right, but he had no hearse. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is this in Bolton ? A. No, sir ; in Caledon East, about ten miles west of Bolton . Q. The man they bought out was not a member of the association ? A. No. Q. Had he been carrying on business for a long time ? A. He had been carry- ing on business in a kind of a way. They were given to understand that when they bought his stock out they could become members of the association, and they bought his stock and bought the hearse and went into the retail business. They got a bill of goods, some $200 worth, from E. Philp & Co. When the members of the associa- tion became acquainted with the fact that they had sold the hearse and these goods to these gentlemen, they appointed a committee and the committee went down and demanded K. Philp & Co.'s books. They could not help it. They had to show them up. He did shew his books to the committee and they said: " Here, Mr. Philp, you have sold a bill of goods to so-and-so, and he is not a member of our association. How did you come to do this?" Mr. Philp could not deny it. By Mr. Bain ( Wenttcorth') : Q. Still, you do not know this of your own knowledge ? A. Well, I have it, Mr. Bain, from a gentleman who is a member of the association, who only told me last Saturday. He did it openly, fairly and straight, becauee he is an old friend of mine. Had I been in the business or out of the businees, he is an old friend of mine. He told me that he himself was a member of that committee, and they examined Mr. Philp's bocks, and Mr, Philp has lest money by it simply because he sold the hearse and these goods to men who were not members of the association. Q. Don't the association have a list of members to whom they are entitled to sell? A. They have, but he just a little cver-reachcd himself that time. They were sot members. Q. Did they refuse to sell to you at all, or only at an advanced rate ? A. They -would not sell to me at all at any price. Q. Because I understand that they sold to outsiders, but at such a rate as to practically shut them out ? A. They would not sell to me at any price. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Why do they make a distinction between the other two men and you ? A. I cannot say. By the Chairman ; Q. There was no opposition in Caledon East, and Mora Boad ? A. No; no op- position. By Mr. Guillet : Q. It is evident that you could assume that there would be no diflSculty of these men gettirg into the association, or there was no opposition ? Aj Certainly. By Mr. Bam ( Weniworih) : Q. Did they try to get into the association ? A. Certainly ; and the association declined to admit them. I was told on Saturday last, that they could not get in, that they tever would get in. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Have you any objection to giving the names of the two parties refused ad- mission ? A. Crawiord and Irwin, of Caledon Bast. Mr. Bain — You are putting the witness on slippery ground. WiTMEBS — You cannot put me on slippery ground, sir. I have my own know- ledge with regard to this. I have it straight and fair from a member of the associa^ tion that these men cannot be admitted. -412 A. E. BOLTON. Mr. GruiLLKT — It is a matter of pnblie interest. He has stated that these men bought; the hearse and the goods in this locality in Caledon East, and the names are merely additional information. Tne CHAiaMAN — He says he has a part of the information, and he went down with them to Philp's to buy the hearse. They all went together to buy the hearse. Q, Now, have you seen them since that day that you all went down together ? A. Certainly. Q. Have you got information from them about this matter ? A. Certainly; They have never been able to get into the association. Q. They told you that ? A. They told me that. Q. Themselves? A. Certainly. The Chairman— That would be direct. What Mr. Bain says is that the evidence is not direct, not wbat you know of your own knowledge, but what you have acquir- ed from others. Article 18 (Exhibit 47c), in the by-laws of the Undertakers' Asso- ciation says : "In order that every member shall feel himself at liberty to discuss any questions coming before the association fully and freely, and without reserve, it is hereby understood and agreed to that all such discussions shall be considered of a private nature, and any member who shall be found guilty of divulging any of the private business, or discussions, or affairs of this association, excepting such as are proper to be made public, shall, if convicted after a fair trial, be fined, reprimanded, or suspended, as the majority of this association shall determine, at any annual meeting." Mr. Bain wants to protect Mr. Bain — I don't think there is any misunderstanding between you and myself as to the position. By Mr. McDougall : Q. Who are the parties who refused to sell goods? A. E. Philp & Co. They are the firm my father dealt with for 16 or 20 years. Q You didn't apply to them ? A. ^o ; I did not. I went there. They had control of the hearse and they would not sell it to me. Of course I did not get the hearse. Q. Do Philp & Co. deal in trimmings? A, Yos, Q. The hearse wasn't exactly in their Hne. It was turned over to them ? A. It was turned over to them. By the Chairman : Q. Do the Pbilps deal in hearses at all? A. No ; only second-hand hearses turned into them. They told me a month or so afterwards if I could get into the association I might perhaps get a hearse. Q. They are manufacturers of coffins? A. Coffins and coffin trimmings. Q, They furnish other goods, they don't manufacture such as trimmings? A. Yes; hardware and all that they don't manufacture. I don't think they manufacture hardware. By Mr. McKay : Q. These two men from Caledon East are still in the business? A. Yes. Q. They don't get their supplies from the regular dealers. Where do they get their supplies? A. That is more than I can tell you. They get them some place. They got their first supply from R. Philp & Co., but they have never got any more from a regular wholesale dealer other than what I have told yoa. (^. They do get them ? A. They do get them I suppose because they are still conducting the business. They get the inside track in some way or other. I don't know how, probably by paying 30 or 40 per cont. more for their goods. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. That would rob them of their profits. Are they able to import do yoa know? A. They are not extra wealthy men. Q. They could not afford to bring them from thd States even if they could ? A. I hardly know how they manage it. If I had time I could have found out. Q. We are only asking yon as to what you know ? A* I don't know. COFFINS AND CASKETS. 413 By the Chairman : Q. You are pretty familiar with the prices of coflSns and so on ? A. Only so far as the prices of invoices are concerned, that is all that I know. Q, You have some invoices there I see ? A. 1 have some invoices, yes. Q. About coffins, can you give us a little information, because these invoices don't indicate very much to us. Can you give us information of the prices. Wo had some information here about the white wood coffin that was sold for $60 ? A. I know nothing about it, I never handled one. Q. Is that the invoice of one complete, is that complete coffin, trimmings and all. There is coffins $7.50, half handles $1.87, and there is all the other goods ? A. That is $10.18. Q. What do you sell that coffin for? A. Of course there are linings and trim- mings. Q. How much do they cost? A. About $S.50 at the outside. I could not tell you the exact cost, because I am not extra well posted. Q. What would that coffin sell for ? A. We always got $32 for that. Q. Yon got paid for the hearse besides? A. No; that includes the hearse at- tendance and everything. Q. The profits are feirly good then in the undertakers' business. A. Oh, fair to middling. The $32 includes the robe. Q. What's the value of the robe ? A. $i and 82 50. Q. Is there a discount off that invoice ? A. Gash. Q. A cash discount? A. I think it is 10 per cent, off coffins and 5 per cent, off trimmings, for cash. EoBBBT MoFFATT, Undertaker, of 335 King Street West, Toronto, sworn. By the Chairman: Q. Will you tell us, Mr. Moffatt, your grievances ? A. A year ago last April we waited on the association, and we asked to become members. We were told that we would have to apply to the secretary. Q. Who was that? A. Bedson & Moffatt. I had been in the business myself for 12 years. Q. That is working for yourself? A. Yes; for my brother-in-law five or six years and for W. H. Store. I acted on that advice, and I applied to the secretary and got a form and filled it out. I was then told that they would bring our appli- cation before the association, and we were told that we would require to get 3 or 4 of the cearest utdertakers to support our application. We then looked about to get the nearest undertakers. Mr. McCabe was the first gentleman whom we approached. When we went to him and asked him if he would sign our application he turned lound on us something like a bulldog, and said: "No; do you want me to give away my bread and butter ? 1 have spent money in purchasing rigs and carriages of different kinds and the stock with which to carry on business, and you expect me to sign for yon." I replied, " We did not come here to be insulted, hot to ask you a civil question, and I would ask you if you will sign this document ? " And so he went on chinning away and gave us no satisfaction, so we left him. The next man we went to was Mr. Thomas Kay, and we could get\no satisfaction out of him either. Q. He refused you, too? A. Yes; point blank. Q. On the pame grounds ? A. Yes, on the same grounds. The next we called on was Messrs. Turner & Porter, Queen Street West, and after a long conversation he signed the document and so the application went into the association. At their first meeting I believe there were three or four other applications, and ao after quite a long debate they left our application over for further consideration. They did not accept or reject us. They said they had to consult the manufacturers before they could either accept or rejec^us and so we went to the following meeting and at last -414 ROBERT MOFFATT. they put it to a vote and we were rejected by a majority of 100 to nothing. Ono voted for uf and all the rest voted against us. Q. Did they reject any of the others ? A. They rejected them all. But they ^ave us no reason. Q. Did they give you none, did they write you a letter ? A. No ; I got an answer from my brother-in-law, Mr. B. P. Humphrey, by word of mouth. By Mr. Fisher : Q. He was secretary of the association ? A. Yes ; at the time. Then we had to start and do the best we could. We imported stock from Albany and from Grand Bapids, Michigan, and we bought stock in Toronto from a party called Cable, some sort of a manufacturer there. To give you an idea of the prices that we paid for our stock and to show you that where there is no justice ia the association, tiiere are the minutes of the last convention held in September, 1887. Q. You and your partner had sufficient capital to carry on your business I sup- pose? A. Yes, we had first, a hearse and horses, five hundred dollars' worth of stock and no encumbrance. Q. No encumbrance? A. No encumbrance. We agreed to do this, but they ■would not accept us on any condition. Q. After asking you to put that in ? A. Yes, after asking us to put them in. Here is an invoice which shows that we paid $5.50 per dozen for handles for coffins and for a quarter of a dozen $1.38. We paid $5.50 for them and here is an invoice which shows that the price of the association is $1^15 per dozen pairs. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. And they sold to you outside of the association? A. We got them in an nnderhand way. It is like stealing. They are bound under oath now to the extent of $1,000. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Bound by whom ? A. They were bound in 1887 by $500, no matter if they got $1,000 for the coffin not to sell to a retailer outside of the association. Q. Well, the wholesalers get theirs from the mannfaoturers ? A. No; the whole- salers manufacture themselves. By fhe Chairman : Q. Do you mean to say that there is that difference, $1.15 to $5.50 ? A. Yes ; there is the receipt of what we paid for them. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I understood that they were not allowed to sell to you at all ? A. No ; they dikre not. Q. But you say now that you bought goods from them ? A. No ; I do not know where this party gets them from. Q. You did not pay this to the manufacturer ? A. No j they were got in a kind of underhand way, just the same as stealing the goods. Q. You talked about importing ? A. Yes. Q. But these are Canadian goods bought from some person in Canada ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Can you not import them and pay the duty and freight and all expenses ? A. No ; not and compete with these firms; Q. Is the difference so great as that ? Is $1.15 about the intrinsic value of the article ? A. A case that cost $28 in the States costs $43.60 shipped to our door. Now if a man can pay that $15 duty and freight and compete with these men I would like to see him do it. By Mr. Fisher : Q. But that is not anything like the difference ? A. Yes ; but that is the case itrolf: By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) : Q. The coffin or casket? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher: Q. But the percentage is not anything like the difference. A. Bat if you ha^e to boy yoar handles, shrouds, &o. COFFINS AND CASKETS. 415 Q. What is the duty on that? A. 35 per cent. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. Do you import your handles? A. Yes- Q. Can you give us the quotations for the imported handles and then we will be able to compare them, about the same quality thai you would put on the same class of coffin, as near as you can. A. There is none of them here the same as on that list there . Q. Perhaps there are some on the other list to correspond with those ? A* Hero is one kind $9.77 ; half a dozen pairs $5 and $2.50 a set. Q There is a difference in that? A. Of course that is a finer handle, but we have been paying at the rate of $10 and $15 a dozen. Q. How mach does that cost ? A. $2.50 a set, and there is a duty on ' that beside. Q, That is H5 per cent. ? A. Yes. And then you would have to have a large capital to do this. You would require to have $300, $400 or $500 worth of stock in order to have the right size on hand. A man would be at a disadvantage if he did not do this. By the Chairman : Q. Then if you could import them at the same price it would still be very dis- advantageous, I suppose ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. Then you had to give up importing them to a large extent ? A. Yes ; we only import them when we cannot get out of it. We have lost several orders on account of the roads being blocked on the other side. In fact, we have lost $100 for orders that we could have had. By the Chairman : Q. So you are actually shut out of your business, prevented from buying a coffin here in Canada ? A. We can buy a coffin here in Canada, but they will not compete with the articles sold by those in the association. By Mr. Bain {WentwortK) : Q. There are some parties tnen outside of the association who make caskets ? A. Yes ; but they are decidedly inferior. Q. You think they are decidedly inferior ? A'. Yes ; we cannot sell them. Q. And the trimmings, where do you get them from? Ai We get them through just the same party, but the trimmings also are inferior. Q. Then, practically, the association controls the business here in Canada? A. Yes ; they control the whole business here. A man cannot carry it on unless he is a member of the association because he is blocked in every way. Q. Then you have to order caskets from time to time as your custom demands ? A. Yes. Q. That, of course, means very prompt delivery ? A. Yes. We keep as large a stock on hand as we can afford to keep, but, of course, we cannot go beyond our means. Q. How do you find American caskets compare with your own ? A. Very good indeed. Q. How about the cost ? A. Some are better goods and some are about the same. Q. A better quality ? A. Some are better in the finish* Q. Are they a better or a worse finish for the same money ? A. About the same and some are a little better. By the Chairman : Q. You have made no efforts since to become a member of the association ? A. We have not, but several have, and they said it was na use. They said they would not admit us or anyone else. Q. When was it that you started business and applied to them ? A. In Aoril, 1887. Q. About a year ago ? A. Yes. 416 ROBERT MOFFATT. Q. Do you know if any have started in Toronto sinee then ? A. No. Q. None in Toronto ? A. No. Q. Have any of the undertakers died since then ? A. Two have died since then. Q Then if no one is admitted the balance would have all the business to them- selves ? A. There were two ; one died and the other sold out. He sold out to a farmer. Q. Did that farmer get admitted ? A. Yes; he got admitted. Q. I suppose he would not buy until he got the assurance that he would be admitted ? A. Of course, if you go and buy a man out you are supposed to take his membership. The constitution makes that proviso. Q. Mr. Bolton succeeded his father and he did not get in ? A. The constitution will tell you. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q, Buyiog out and inheriting are two different things? A. That is the consti- tution of 1887. They offer it to suit themselves, but there is something in the consti- tution and by-law that is secret. Q. Are they aflSliated with the Toronto Board of Trade ? A. Yes ; I believe the Board of Trade is the foundation of the whole of it* The Board of Trade is the cause of all this combination. Q. How many members are in this combination ? A. 442 in the Province of Ontario. Q. How many in Toronto? A. Only 12 in and three outside of it. Q. Who are those outside of the association ? A. Bates & Dodd, B. J. Hum- phrey and Bedson & Moffat. By the Chairman : Q. You said you thought they were affiliated with the Toronto Board of Trade ? A. Yos ; a casket that they paid 1 12.50 for they sell at $75 in the association. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You put on handles and trimmings for that ? A. Yes ; handles and trim- mings. Q. Do you supply the hearse too ? A. No; the hearse is extra, the shroud is extra, hacks are extra, and if there is any special attendance that is extra. I have seen tbem charge $10, $15, and $25 for disinfecting. I have seen that done and the bill collected. By the Chairman : Q. What do they disinfect with ? A. Embalming flaid. They pretend to use some other fluid, bat that is what they use. Q. Is it a good disinfectant ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher : Q. You say a $12.60 casket is sold for $75. A. Yes. Q. About how much trimmings are put on ? A. About three yards of lining at $2.50 a yard, and the white cotton would cost about 30 cents ; handles, about $2.50 ; the plate would cost 75 cents and the thumb screws would cost about 30 cents. Q. That would be $11.35 for expenses ? A. Yes; that is all. Q. That would bring it up to $'iJ4 or $25 ? A. Yes. Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. We had a statement that a casket costing $16.50 would be sold at $35 ? A. I can produce books to prove what I say. By the Chairman : Q. He said the casket cost $l4 50, and there was about 10 per cent, off that ; bat he gave his black cloth as five yards at $1.10 ? A. The kind I am speaking of cost $2.60. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. I have the items down here as given before at $31.60. By the Chairman : Q. That was sold for $G0 ? A. That casket would be a varnished case. COFFINS AND CASKETS. 41T Mr. Fisher — I happen to know that Mr. Rogers charges for attendaace, because I have had to do with him. By the Chairman : Q. He said that paid for everything, except the hearse and shell and the hacks ; that |60 was the cheapest casket sold ? A. I am prepared to prove that there never was a casket rold for $60. Q He says they pay extra for the hearse, ehell, shroud and hacks ? A. They might put in a varnished case ior $60, bat I know that I worked for twelve years with members of the association, and they rever put a casket in for that. Q. What are the charges now for white wood caskets in Toronto ? A. The casket they sell called white wood they generally term it walnut and cover it with black cloth. It is nothing but a plain piece of bass wood but they sail them for black walnut All they are is a plain piece of bass wcod covered with broad cloth and that is the coffin they sell for $2.'j0. Go back to the funeral of a prominent Toronto gentleman which cost $1,650. That is the same case as I am speaking of now; the same kind of a casket. 1 wish you could summon some of them down here and let them produce their books. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. You state that in a funeral they charge $70 for the casket would cost $12.50 ? A» Yes ; they mny get in a tight box and put it down to $70 but as a general rule it is $75. They would not cut nor give a discount. By the Chairman : Q. Will they sell you any portion without trimming. Supposing you got a coffin nade out in the country by a carpenter; would the manufacturers and dealers in Toronto sell you trimmings? A. They have refused to sell me tacks. 1 went down to Mr. Thompson with $250 and wanted to buy stock and he said '* I cannot sell you ; I dare not." I went down to Mr. Philp yesterday and wanted a white coffin and he oi-dered me out of his place. The rest of them generally state that they would like to sell but they dare not. A member of the association dare not sell anything that belongs to him without consulting the association. By Mr. Bain (^Wenlworth) : Q. It is very difficult for you to import and compete with them ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : « Q You do a little underground business to get a member of the association to buy lor you ? A. If we got from a member of the association they would very soon get on to him and his supplies would be cut oflF. They have a committee watching night and day. 1 cannot go down to see my sister on Yonge Street but I am watched. It is pretty hard to be wutched by a lot of scoundrels like them ; for they are noth- ing else. They are cutting each other's throats over it too in one trying to got ahead of the other. Q. They are doing pretty well having the whole business to themselves ? A. I think the day will come when some of them will have to cry quits if there is any justice in the country at all. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Why can't you start another place and manufacture supplies ? A. We have not the capital to do it with. If we had the capital it would not be any bother to do it ; but it requires a man with a considerable amount of money to start in a business like that. A man with money could do it all right enough. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. I suppose as far as cloth covered coffins are concerned you can do that business yourselves, can yon ? A. No. * Q. You don't manufacture ? A. No. Q. CJould not combine that part with your ordinary business? A. The manu- facturers of black coffins ? Q, Yes ? A. No ; we could not do it. The party who gets up these varnished cases could not do it because he is not an experienced hand. . 3—27 418 ROBERT MOFPATT. Q. He could not make it ? A. He could ilot make it, no. He could not get that up at all. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Any similar association in the Province of Quebec ? A. I could not say whether it is connected with this or not. Q. There is an association there ? A. I think that it is connected with this. Q. Is there an association of some kind in the Province of Quebec in respect to this trade ? A. 1 don't know. By the Chairman : Q. Bo you know of any association in the Province of Quebec ? A. No j I do not. Mr. GuiLLBT — It appears there is by this report. Mr. Lain — Of course the witness does not know that. By Mr. Fisher : Q Why could you not go to Montreal and somewhere else and buy your trim- mings ? A. The manufacturers of Montreal are in this. Whether the retailers are or not I cannot eay. Q. You know the manufacturers are ? A» Yes. Q. Did you ever apply to the Montreal manufacturers? A. There is no use because they are in the association. Whether the retailers are or not I cannot say. Whatever the manufacturers are in the retailers are in I suppose. You cannot get them in Canada at all any place. The Chairman — This condition of things shows that the combination amongst the undertakers is utterly unjustifiable. By Mr. Quillet: Q. Do you know how they levied their fines, do you know from what rule? Have they any specified means for fining established ? A. The fines on the retailers are $25 for the first offence, suspended for the second and expelled ior the third. I think it is in the by-laws there. I could not say particularly about the manufacturers, but the first offence is $500. Since the formation of the association they are bound in $500. By the Chairman : Q. Not to sell outside ? A. Not to sell outside, to any person outside the as- sociation. Byydr. Guillet : Q. Article 23 reads that if any member of the association is found guilty of violating any of the rules he shall be suspended or fined — do you know of any manu- facturer turned out of this association ? A, They tried it hard at one time but they did not succeed. Q. I was going to quote in that connection a record " the same as we make for parties who have infringed the rules, he says * give us the facts where any of the manufacturers belong to the D. B. C. A. sold to these parties ' and you will put a $500 fine on them? " A. This year I believe it is increased to $1,000 and they are bound under oath. That is what I am told by one of the manufacturers myself personally. By the Chairman : Q. One of the manufacturers told you that? A. One of the managers of the manufacturers. He is the manager of the firm. He said he would like to sell to me but he dare not. I am told that it will be increased to $1,000 and the manu- facturer is bound under oath not to sell to any person outside this association. Q. That is the meeting to be held this month ? A. Yes ; this is to renew their arrangement between the retailers and manufacturers. Theu the retailers have a convention once a year and it meets in September in each year in Toronto at exhibi- tion time. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Betailers and manufacturers? A. I don't think the manufacturers meet with them. They generally meet to transact retail business. Q. Do you know how many manufacturers there are ?— — COFFINS AND CASKETS. 419 By the Chairman : Q. Who are the manufactarers ? A. In Toronto R. Philp, Simmons, B wing & "Co., Thompson and Watson and the Ontario Casket Co., and I think this is all of the wholesale in Toronto. Q. Do they all manufacture caskets? A. Yes ; all manufacturers. Q. And they ail deal in trimmings ? A. They all deal in trimmings, hardware and everything in connection with undertaking. Q. I suppose some of these manufacture hearses ? A. None of them. Q. These are just casket manufacturers ? A. They tried to get the hearse manit. facturers in with ihem but there was no use, they would not listen to them. They said they would sell to whoever would pay them. They would not be bound by any association. The gentleman we bought a hearse from, and paid $1,400 for it, told ua they tried to get them in but they would have nothing at all to do with them. We have a hearse no other undertakers in the eity can touch. The builders of hearses, are not in this combination. Q. Where do you buy your hearse ? A. London, Canada West. By Mr. Bain (WentwortK) : Q. What does the cost of an ordinary funeral run from ? A. You can get a funeral from $25 up. By the Chairman : Q. Would that be a fall grown person ? A. You can get a funeral for a full grown person from $25 up ; very plain. Q . What is the ordinary price for the burial of an adult in a family of a well- to-do mechanic, a man who earned $600, $800 or $900 a year ? A, You find very few of them in the city of Toronto. Q. Of which ? A. There are very few of them that earn $600. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Of mechanics ? A. There are very few mechanics in the city of Toronto that earn $600. Q. How much do well-to-do mechanics' funeral cost ? A. Some of them will get a cofl&n from $26 to 835, and the hearse $6, and if he gets crape, all th at is extra, and that runs it up to $40, $45, $55, and some as high as $60. By the Chairman : Q. Commeccing with a $25 coffin, the other expenses will run it up $25 more at least, will it ? A. About that, I guess. Q. What is the $25 coffin ? A. It is a No. 3. Q. Tell us what it is made of ? A. It is made out of bass wood, finished in imi- tation of rose wood, and it is dark colored, trimmed with lining worth about 75 to 80 cents a yard. The lining in it costs about 25 cents, that is cotton lining, worth about 7 or 8 cents a yard. That is what we pay for it. They would get it from the wholesalers for about 5 or 6 cents, and we pay 7 and 8 for it. Q. There is about 25 cents' wojrth of cotton in a coffin, and about three yards of head lining worth from 75 to 80 cents a yard ? A. There is engraving the plate, which costs 25 cents. The plate is worth about 40 cents, and the thumb screws are worth about bO or 40 cents. I By the Chairman : Q. YoQ are anxious to have this combination broken up, of coarse ? A. I am, very much. I have been trying to make an honest living if I can, and I think they have been trying to starve us out of it, and they will get us out if they can. They don't want any more to start. They want the business to themselves, and want the profits to themselves. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is your idea of the remedy for that sort of thing — have you ever thought about a remedy ? A. Unless the law of the country takes hold of it. Q. You have experienced the grieraDce that is plain ? Have you ever thought now of any way by which it can be remedied ? A. I don't know how they can remedy it. 3-27i 420 BOBKBT HOFFATT. Q. Declare a combination illegal ? A. That is the only way it can be remedied that 1 can pee. It is for the law of the country to take it up. This is supposed to be a free country where every man can start in business. Q. Is it not a breach of the law as they stand now ? A. I don't think so. They can do just as they like, the law don't seem to pay any attention to it. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Have you ever obtained any legal advice as to whether you can indict them for conspiracy ? A. I don't think any legal advice would be of any use. Q. You have never obtained any legal advice? A. No ; I never went to a la\^- yer because there was no use in wasting money on it. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Then in your business it is difficult to import? A. Yes ; in fact we cannot import and sell at the same price as they do. Q. The American price is about the same? A. Yes ; one- third more than what you can buy here. By the Chairman : Q. You say that the prices would be about the same if there were no duty or j&eight to pay ? A. Yes ; and a man requires a large capital and a large stock to meet all ord-ars that come in. By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. One-third is a pretty heavy duty. I think you said that you had been em- ployed in the business for twelve or fourteen years, and I think this combination is only about four years old, is it not? A. Yes. Q Were you intimate enough to know whether ' the prices advanced or not ? A. Well, the prices are something about the same. The only diflference is that the wholesalers have advanced the prices a little, but it is a very little. Q. On the trimmings and caskets ? A . Yes ; but the retail prices are pretty much the same. Q. But the undertakers' prices are just about the same as formerly ? A. Yes ; with the exception of a couple of undertakers who supply the wealthier classes. Q. But thd current rates have not been advanced? A. No \ the current rates have not been advanced. INSURANCE. 42L I SECTION 4-INSURANCE. HousK OP Commons, Ottawa, 20th April, 1888. The Committee on alleged Trade and Insurance Combinations met this day, Mr. Wallace, Chairman, presiding. D. C. Maodonald, of London, Ont., Manager of the London Mutual Fire In- surance Company, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Have you been long engaged in the fire insurance business? A. Tes; for about 30 years. Q. flow long have you been connected with the London Mutual ? A. About 30 years ; 29 years. Q. Do you know of any association or combination among fire insurance men 7 A. I am aware that there is an association called the Fire Underwriters' Association. Q . Where are its headquarters ? A. I believe its headquarters are in Toronta and Montreal. , Q. What are the purposes or objects of this association ? A. Eeally I cannot tell. Q. Tell us how it affects your company. Does it interfere in any way or affect the interests of your company ? A. I cannot say that it does directly, sir. No ; I cannot say that it does affect our company in any way . Q. Have they attempted to interfere with the operations of other companies ? A. They have attempted to do so. Q. And in your case they have not ? A. No ; they have not succeeded. Q. In what way have they attempted ? A. As far as we are concerned, very little. In 1885 they issued a circular. The association, or individual companies belonging to the association, issued a circular prohibiting their agents, or the agents of the individual companies of the association, forbidding their agents from acting as Agents of other parties who were not members of this Underwriters' Association* (Exhibit 42.) Q. They forbid them ? A. They forbid them acting as agents for any non- tariff company. Q. And experience proves that one agent must have a number of companies to do a successful business? A. Yes. It depends on localities. The agents want two or three companies to be able to do a successful business. Q. And that prevented their agents from taking any of the agencies of your company ? A. I can only speak of those agents who are agents of our company. They attempted to force our agents to resign our company. Q. It was intended to be a boycott of your company. That would be the effect if they had succeeded ? A. Yes ; that would be the effect if they had succeeded, Q. But they did not succeed t A. No ; they did not succeed, Q. And was this an effort of the organization of this Fire Underwriters' Asso- ciation, or was it the individual companies? A. As I understand, the association is composed of the different companies for the purpose, as I understand, of raising their rates and regulating the workings of the different companies composing the association, and their object was to prevent any company that did not belong to this association, at least, any agents working for outside companies, and the London Mutual is regarded as an outside company . By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Have you seen any of these circulars? A. Yes ; I have seen them. 422 D. G. MAODONALD. Q. Do you recollect by whom they were signed ? A. 1 cannot tell you by whom they were signed. There were two or three of our agents to whom these. circulars were eent, and these circulars were supposed to be confidential, and I was requested DOt to divulge the names of those who issued them, and I returned the circulars. I got a copy of what the circulars contained. Q. Have you a copy with you now ? A. Of what the circular contained ? Q. Tes ? A. At the lime 1 returned the original papers that were sent to me t returned to the agents who sent them in. I might state, Mr. Chairman, that I cut this from the Budget, an insurance journal, but it is an exact copy of the circular that was issued. It is as follows (Exhibit 42) : — " EESTRIOTIVE MBASURE8. " Copies of the following circular have been sent to us for publication, and our c pinion asked concerning it and the agreement it refers to : — " CIEO ULAR TO AGENTS. « Montreal, 11th Nov., 1885. ** Dear Sir, — Enclosed herewith I eend you a copy of instructions and rules now binding on agents of tariff companies, and a form of agreement requiring your signature in triplicate. 1 would call your special attention to No. 16 of instructions to agents which is as follows : — "1^0 oflBce or person holding oflScial connection with a non-tariff office shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff office, whether as general agent, sub-agent or in any other capacity whatever. You will please sign the agreement referred to in triplicate, returning the original and duplicate to this office not later than the 25th instant, and retaining the triplicate for filing in your own office." " agreement. **Tothe Insurance Company. " No. 3. — Triplicate to be retained by Local Agent. I hereby acknowledge having received copies of tariff and instructions to agents, and undertake to adhere to the rates and rules of the Canadian Fire Underwritirfe' Association as therein set forth, and as m&y bo hereafter communi- cated to me from time to time. And I further agree not to represent any non-tariff office nor to place a risk in any company not a member of said association, either with or without consideration, directly or indirectly, except in instances when all companies shall bo fall, or shall not be open for the insurance, and then only in strict conformity with tariff rules and regulations. "Agent." By the Chairman : Q. This is a correct copy of the circular you saw ? A. Yes. Q. Did the association ever ask you to join ? A. I have been asked by members cithe asHOciation to join. By Mr. Bam (^Wentworth) : Q. At what date was that circular issued ? A. It is dated llth November, 1885; By Mr. Boyle: Q. "Was the London Mutual ever connected with any association, combine or agreement to keep up rates ? A. No. Q. Have inducements been held out to it to join? A. Yes; inducements have been held out to it by members of the association. Q. By the members of the Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. Yes ij. And what were your reasons for not going into the at^sociation ? A. Well, we are opposed to it on the principle that we do not like bad company. That was one reaflon. We thought that the association was inoonsihtent with the principles of in- fcnrance, in this way, that an insurance company lost its identity by comit:g in and INSURANCS. 42^ forming a nnion with other companies whose modes of doing business were different from those it pursues ; in fact, insurance companies have different rules and they stick by those rules and hold them out as an inducement to give their company the pre- ference over other companies, ard they lose all this individuality by joining a com- bination of this kind. In other words, some companies were well managed and others badly mauaged. Q. Do you consider your company well managed ? A. Yes; I do, Q. And you did not want to connect your company with others which were badly managed? A. No. Q. Were you opposed to it on principle, on the general principle of free compe* tition ? A. Yes; I believe in free competition in insurance. ■Q. For what reabon ? A. Then every company stands on its merits. Q. Is it because you think your company would do a better business, or the public be better served, or for both of these reasons ? A. I believe the company which understands its business and has its modes of doing business, it should not be placed on a par with companies that are placed in the hands of inexperienced men^ men who do not know an insurance policy from a piece of blank paper. Q. What class of insurance do you cultivate ? A. Our business is a private dwelling house and farm business. Q. Do you do any commercial business at all ? A. No; not now. Q. You do a private dwelling house and farm businep^? A. Yes; farm buildings and churches and school houses and tcwn halls, isolated and non-hazardous risks. By Mr. Ghtillet : Q. Are these companies that are in the Underwriters' Association engaged in the same business ? A. Yes. Q They are competitors in the same business. A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( WeniwortK) : Q. Bat they also go much further? A. Yes ; but they are competitors in the same business. Q. I suppose the real facts were, that when your agents were asked to discon- tinue your company, that an agent with your lines combined also with the more hazardous risks in the other companies, if they wanted to drop their business, and then take your business in their hands ? A. I presume so. By the Chairman : Q. Were there any companies belonging to the association which were doingf business exactly on the same lines as your company ? A. An American company called the Agricultural, of Watertown, does the same business. By Mr. Guillet : Q. They are not in the list of 1886 ? No ; I only believe that they were. Q. The Watertown Mutual Insurance Company ? A. That is a commeroial company. Q. Is your company purely mutual ? A. A purely mutual and non-hazardous company. Q. I see here that an agreement laid down in the ccnstitution makes an excep- tion of these companies : " 1 further pledge myself to charge tariff rates for all business placed by me in any company, purely mutual offices alone excepted." A. "What is the date of that ? Q. 15th October, 1886. A. I was not aware. I am not a member of the associationt Q. What is the object of that? I suppose it was that when they found you would not join, these agents were to be at liberty to go with you, and that the agents were to pledge themselves to charge certain tariff rates, with the exception of the purely mutual companies? A. The association, as I understand it, exempted our class of business fiom the operation of the tariff. Q. Do they cut the rates in tha{ class of business lower than the tariff rates? ' A» Yts; they have no tariff rates. \ 424 D. C. HACDONALD. By the Chairman : Q. There is no tariff ? A. No; there is no tariff for non-hazardons business. By Mr. Boyle: Q How do the rates of the association companies compare with yours for this class of business ? A. 1 cannot tell you that. I do not think they have any stated rating. In some instances they are lower than we are. By Mr, Guillet : Q. Was that done with a view to resenting your refusal to join the association ? A. I may be wrong, but we regarded that circular of November, 1885, as being {)ointedly directed at us. Q. And if jou had joined, and other companies similar to yours had joined, it would have brought about uniform rates ? A. The effect I believe would have been that a uniform tariff would have been established for the non-hazardons business, and the rates raised on this class of business also. By Mr. Boyle : Q. You think your staying out kept up free competition? A. Yes; I ana decidedly of that opinion. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Did the competition affect your rates in any way ? A. No ; we have kept the same tariff for a great number of years. Q. Were you often appealed to by your agents on the ground that they were offering lower rates than you were ? A. We have frequently. Q. But more so since this combination was formed ? A. I will not say so. That is the cry all along, that companies belonging to this association attempt to cut on our class of business. Our agents complain that they are cutting under us. Q. That they insure at less rates ? A. Yes. 1 understand, though, of course, this is from hearsay, and Mr. McLean can explain that, that the western section of Ontario is better dealt with than the other, that in the western section of Ontario free trade still ezistw, but it is protected at this lower end. By Mr. Boyle : Q. There is not the same competition in the east as in the west ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Is there any arrangement between yon and the other mutual companies as lo your rates ? A. None whatever. Q. Each one does business as they think best? A. Yes. I may say that we have a mutual association fcrmed of the Ontario Mutuals, that is, the mutual com- panies in Ontario doing a non-hazardous business, but it has nothing whatever to do with regard to rates. It is only to watch legislation, to watch insurance legislation in Ontario. Q. That more particularly applies to the Legislature in Toronto ? A. Yes ; to the Legislature at Toronto, but that has nothing to do with rates. Q. I Buopose the deposit is made here ? A. Yes. Q. So that you do a Dominion business? A. We have the privilege of doing a Dominion business, but our business is mostly in Ontario. Q. Then your association is confined to Ontario exclusively? A. Yes; to Ontario exclusively, the mutual associations. Q Yon are chartered by the Government ? A. Yes. Q. Your association covers Ontario exclusively ? A. Yes ; a mutual associa- tion. By Mr. Boyle : Q D ) you place any special restrictions upon your agents in regard to doing business for other companion ? A. None at ail, sir. Well, we ahk them not to insure a place in the same class of business as ourselves when we appoint them ; no man can serve two masters. Q. What is your limit ? A. $4,000. Q. If your agent takes a little more than that, yon reinsure. A, Yes; we r^ insare. INSURANCE. 425 By the Chairman : Q. What are your rates ? A . Cash system. 90 cents for three years o«e ordinary farm property, and fee and note rates 1^ per cent., upon which we ha.Te made an assessment in no case exceeding 60 per cent. Q. That would bring it up to 90 per cent, cash ? A. Yea. By Mr. Bain : Q. That is yoar first class risks? A. Ordinary iarm business ; our tariff is lower on brick buildings covered with shirgles, and lower still for a brick building with a slate roof. That is called first class. By Mr. Boyle : Q. If you require to make reinsurance can you obtain it from any of the com* panics in the association ? A. Well, we have never sought it., sir, not of late years, i have insured one or two risks. I may state when we got this circular our agents were placed in this dilemma : If ihey gave up our business they wonld give up & valuable business and they would drop a valuable business if they gave up thesa insurance companies of this association. They had to choose between it. By the Chairman ; Q. Between the devil and the deep sea? A. Exactly, and they chose the deep sea, 1 think. I don't know which they chose. We lost nothing at all events. We were forced for a while to take business, which we omitted to do formerly. Wo were forced for a while to insure very hazardous risks, but that was only for a shcu^ time. By the Chairman ; Q. To keep your agents employed? A. To employ their agents who stuck to us, you know. A new ntutual company was formed in London and many of oar agents have taken the agency of that. Q. Doing a hazardous business? A. Tes, Q. You don't take flour mills? A. No, we take no mills. This City Mutual "was established and it is doing a good business now. It was established in conse- ■quenco of the tariff association. Q. Do the agents acting for that company obtain renewals for more h£zardo but tht re are a great many of them being used. Q. A little more carelessness? A- Yes. Q. Too much confidence? A. Yes ; too much confiderce. A man uses a xnachine one season, and he thinks because he gets off that season he gets careless, And there is a good deal in that. Our losses have increased every year through steam threshers. Q, Is there any special matter to which we have not referred. This is a new question with us. You are the first we h&ve had, and we would like if there is any important matter that has not been asked of you that you would suggest it ? A. Ko; I do not know of any, sir. Q. Your opinion is about this combination in fire insurance that it is injurious to the public interest and harmful so far as your association is concerned? A. Wei', I won't, perhaps, go so far as that. I mean to say that the association, I don't think, is much benefit to the companies, and where they interfere with other com« panies that is injurious. Q. I am relieiring to this circular where they interfere — interfering with legiti- mate business and the freedom of other companies ? A.I think they are harmful in that way, and then al^o they send arbitrary rates that I do not approve of. I know Mr. SfcLean and I don't agree on that. Q. Would you explain the fixing of arbitrary rates— what eflfect it has? I think that is a very important thing. This combination fixes the rates and allows nothidg^ lor the judgment of the agent or for the character of the roan insured ? A. That is the way 1 understand their tariff. There is a tariff of rates fixed — the minimum rate«. They may be added to as much as they please. There don't appear to bo SDy discrimination allowed. Q. They can put as much on but they cannot take anything off? A. There is j>ot the natural freedom. They have a standard tariff, and in that way it takes from the freedom of the agent to a very great exteiit. Now, there may be two buildings precisely alike, aLd these buildings, according to that tariff, would have to be charged alike, although there would be a great deal more hazard in one than in the other. Q. This cast iron arrangement does not take that into account? A. It gives no credit to moral hazard. IN8U&AN0S. 427 By Mr. Bain {Weniworih) : Q. Bow do 3 ou deal with that diflSculty in your company? A. Oar opinion, sir, is that it affects ccmmeicial insurance more especially. We trust a good deal to our agents as to the character of the parties whom they insure. All the country is laid out in territ.oiies atd cur agents are supposed to know the residents of that territory, and he is supposed to know each person, and we have to trust to their knowledge of the people. Q. That deperds upon the character of the agent a great deal ? A, Yes. By the Chairman : Q. You place the responsibility upon him? A. Yes; the success of the company depends upon the agents to a very great extent. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. 1 suppose the sgenis send in the applications to the company and give tho^ moral character of the applicant, and all that tort of thing? A. We have had men working for us for twenty-five years and they take an interest in the welfare of the company. Q. After all, there is a difference between agents and agents ? A. Yes. Q. 1 suppose, on the other hand, you have one check, if a farmer is repeatedly in curring great losses you would have a tendency to drop him out? A. We have had men very unfortunate. We have had one or two men burned out three or lour times, but every time it was an accidental fire. Well, we think it would be cowardly to drop him because he bad had three or four fires, and in another case where a man has had one fire, and we would be glad to drop him. Q. Yes ; but after all it all jnst comes back to this, that it all depends upon the agent a great deal ? A. Yes, it depends a great deal uf on the agent. Q. 1 suppose really the best precaution is where the agent gives you a closa value? A. Our object is to insure for two-thirds of the value of the property, and we are endeavoring to keep that way, but, of course, there is a great difference of opinion as to valuations. By Mr. Quillet : Q. 1 tnink it is important that the standing of your company should be known in connection with your evidence. Has your company been successful? A. Yes. Q. You are the largest western mutual, 1 think? A. We are the largest mutual company, we have more properly insured in Ontario than any other com- pany. By the Chairman : Q. What amount ? A. I think the last return shows $42,000,000. Q. You are a very large company then ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You have accamulated a large rest or surplus? A. Yes; we have about ♦47,000; we are a purely mutu&l company. There are no profits. We find our rates sufficient to carry on the company and to have that surplus, we have that sur-~ plus $47,000 in debentures deposited with the Government here. We are only a mutual company, bat we have a license from this Grovemment, from the Dominion Government. By the Chairman : Q. Your business is nearly all in Ontario ? A. We went down to the lower Provinces and got $400,000. You see the class of property we insure is very safe* Now, for instance, you will find one of these other companies will take risks worth 10 per cent, per annum and all the deposit they have is $100,000, and they will take risks from 75 cents per annum to 10 per cent, per annum. Ours is only 1^ per cent, for three years. Q. Very hazardous risks ? A. Yes Q. What proportion of your cash policies and premium note policies ? A. I think the premium note policies are about two thirds. Our premium note is in- creasing all the time. We are encouraging it. 428 EOBBRT MOLBAN. Q. The other you are not cultivating ? A. We are cultivating the premiam note business, as we regard it as the legitimate business. By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) : Q. The $400,000 you have is premium notes ? A . Yes. Q. You don't take a premium note from a tenant? A. No; they are all on the cash system. The assessment has been 57^ per cent, on our premium notes, and the higher assessment on premium notes has been 60. Q. What per cent, is your premium notes ? A, 1 J on all the farm property. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The collection is 52^ on premium notes ? A. Yes ; that would be 78 instead of 90, consequently our premium note business is the legitimate business of a mutual company, and it is increasing. EoBERT McLean, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Will you state your name ? A. Eobert McLean, Q. And your occupation ? A. Secretary of the Canadian Fire Underwriters* Association. Q. Eeeidence ? A. Toronto. Q. How long have you been secretary to this association ? A. Since its incep- tion in 1885. Q. Were you one of the promoters and organizers of it ? A. I was. Q. Were you in the insurance business before that ? A. I was. Q. In what capacity ? A. Inspector. Ten years for the Gore Mutual, after- wards for the Scottish Commercial, and afterwards for the British American, and then I became secretary. I have been in the business since 1864. Q. Who is the prebident of your association ? A. Mr. Kenny, of the Western Insurance Company. Q. What companies are in your association ? Is the list given here ? A. Yes ; it is given there. They are not all in. The Queen City is not in now. Q. Strike off the ones that are not in. A. The Atlas has been added since. (Exhibit 43a.) Q. Then there are about 32 companies at present? By Mr. Bain ( Wetitworth) : Q. All stock companies? A. Except the Waterloo Mutual Fire Insurance Com- pany. There are two classes ot mutual companies, the mixed and the pure mutual. The Groro Mutual and Waterloo are mixed. They take risks on the cash principle. Q. The Gore Mutual has no subscribed stock? A. No. By the Chnrman : Q. Does this ajtsociation work pretty well ? A. Yes. Q. You are quite satisfied with the result of your association being formed ? A. Well, I do not know that there is any complaint. Q. Have you had a good many tines? A. We have fined nobody. Q. Any complaints made to your association about cutting rates ? A. Oh, yes, certainly. Q. 1 thought you said there were no complaints ? A. I thought you meant from the public. There are complaints from companies of violation of the tariflf by agents. If you turn to the end of that book (pointing to the minute book) you will see lots of them. Q. A good many complaints there? You say there are no complaints from tho pnblio? A. I do not think so. Q. I, as one of the public, have been complaining ? A. Not to me. I am not going to give hearbay evidence. Q. Your business is not with the public, but insurance companies? A. Tho public sometimes write to me as well as tho companies. INSURANCE. 42^ Q. The people must understand the partiouUrs of this association. You regu- late the prices for all classes of risks. You have a tariif ? A. We have a tariff for all classes of risks and for all places. We do not have the same tariff for all places. The tariff is fixed with regard for the facilities which each place has for extinguish- ing fires. You will notice by this book that we divide the risks into six classes : A, B, C, D, E and F. A, B and C are places having water works, D places having steam fire engines and other appliances for extinguishing fires, and E places having either hand fire engines or standard chemical engines, while F is for places having no kind of protection whatever. Q. About your company or association ; is there one association or two ? A, Only one. It has two branches. Q. Where are the two branches located ? A. One in Toronto and the other in Montreal. Q. Each one having equal power ? A. Yes ; concurrent power. (Exhibit 43a — Article 5.) Q. Like the two Houses of Parliament; nothing becomes law unless it is passed by both ? A. That is it, exactly, at the semi-annual meeting, when both branches meet. Q. What do they do when the two branches meet ? A. Whatever is agreed on there becomes law at once. Q. That settles it, when both meet ? A. Yes. Q. When is this tariff arranged ; at this eemi-annual meeting ? A. The tariff was principally arranged at the first meeting. There have been modifications of it irom time to time . Q. Look at this circular a moment (handing witness a circular respecting agents) ? A. Such an arrangement was made at one of the meetings, and subse- quently, as you will find in that book (pointing to the minutes), it was repealed at another meeting. I have marked it. It was repealed because all the companies did not give in their adherence. Q. What is the date of this ? A. The 1st April, 1886. Q. You passed that resolution ? A. Yes, at the previous meetirg in 1885. Q. Not the previous meeting, by a good many ? A. The annual meetings are the thing. They do not deal with rates at any of the ordinary meetings. I do not think that is the proper date. Probably that was the date that that circular was sent out by that company. Q. The 13ih of October would be it, probably ? A. Very likely. Q. You had a meeting then lor several days ? A. Yes. Q. I will read from the minutes: "The committee beg to report that after full consideration of the existing rule bearing on joint agencies, it is the opinion of this committee that they are sufficiently clear to enable the association to deal with the case at Toronto which has been brought under its notice. That in order to avoid similar questions in future, it be resolved that hereafter no office, or person holding official connection with a non-tai-iff office or acting as agent or sub-agent for a non tariff office shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff office, whether as general agent, sub-agent or in any capacity whatever." This was unanimously adopted. What was the difficulty in this Toronto case ? A. It was with reference to the Millers' and Manufacturers'. Q. What was it ? A. They were taking premiums in cash at less than the association rates. Q. Is that the Flour Millers' Association ? A. It is managed by Messrs. Scott and Walmsley. It was not with reference to the London Mutual. Q. You parsed a resolution that no non-tariff agent should have any business. You say that was repealed. Now, when ? A. March, 1886. The Ist of April ; we call it the March meeting. Q. It was repealed in March or April? A. Yes. Q. Well, you say that the object of the resolution was carried, and then you rescinded it. Is that what I understood you to say? A. No; because one of the 430 BOBBRT MCLIAN. companies would not agree to it. If any one company does not agree to anything that is passed — they were not present at the meeting, I presume — it is rescinded. We do not act unless there is unanimity in the associalion. Q. It mu6t be unanimous ? A. Yes. Q. I understood you a moment ago to say that the objeut ot the resolution was passed? A. No; yoo misunderstood me. Q. One company refused to go into this agreement? A. Yes. By Mr. Boyle : Q. What company was that ? A. I think it was the Northern Insurance Com- pany. By the Chairman: Q. I see this resolution, which had been passed at a previous meeting, was re- scinded by a vote of 6 to 4 ? A. Yes. Q. There were 12 members present; two not voting? A. Yes. Yon will find in the oonptitution that there is nothing new required, except that the agent of any of these companies in the association shall not place a risk in any of these cash Mu- tuals at a less rate than in a stock company. He is allowed to be an agent for any cash mutual, but not to insure in that cash mutual at a less rate than for the com- pany he represents in the association. By Mr. Boyle : Q. He holds up the tariff rate? A. Exactly. You will see that in the book. By the Chairman : Q. What is he to do with the premium note ? A. Does as he likes. Q. Is he permitted to deal with the premium note ? A, Yes ; without any re- ference to us. Q. Did all the companies come in ? A. They were all in before. There is none of the companies left, except the Queen City of Toronto, and the Millers' and Manu- facturers' Mutual. Q. What companies had this resolution reference to, if they were all in? A. I do not know. It might have reference to more companies. Q. Our friend Mr. McDonald ? A. No; because he did not come into competi- tion. Do you take cash mutual premiums, Mr. McDonald ? Mr. McDonald — Yes. Witness — Oh, you came in then ? We would not have allowed an agent of ours to place a risk, a commercial risk, at less than the tariff rate. It did not mean him, because we had no tariff on dwelling risks. By Mr. Guillet : ^ ^ Q. Are these what yoH call non-hazardouB risks ? A. Yes. Q. You are explaining the resolution in a wrong way. " Hereafter, no office, or person holding official connection with a non-tariff office, or acting as agent, or eub-agent for a nontanff office, shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff office, whether aw general agent, sub-agent, or in any capacity whatever." Then Mr. Mo- Donald's agents would not be permitted to act for any company of your association ? A. No. Q. It was repealed, however, absolutely ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wenttoorth') : Q. Your agents kicked? A. I am not in a position to know. I do not deal with agents. I do not know what they do to the oompanies. The Chairman— He is secretary of all the companies and should know. Mr. Bain — No ; the agent complains to the manager of bis particular company. Here, the managers come together, as in an association, and Mr. McLean not being the manager of any company would not come in contact with tbe agents. Witness — I do not represent any company. Hy the Chairman : Q [f he has come in contact with the people, he has come in contact with insur- ance agents ? A. Very frequently insurance* agents write to me, with regard to rates, and 1 invariably answer them. INSITRANOK. 431 Q. What companies was this aimed at ? A. At all compaDies doing a cash bast* ness, and a mntual business still. It was aimed at i/Lr. Macdonald that far. Q. If joa bad sncceeded in getting Mr. Macdonald's agents away from his com> pany on this resolution, you would have left him high and dry ? A. Supposing the agent would rather stick to Mr. Macdonald than to the companies in this association^ we would be left. Q, Butjouhad32 companies and your object was to get the agents to make their choice as between the 32 companies or one? A. Yoa must remember that there are a great many more mutual companies than stock companies — a great many more, Q. Alter you failed to crush them out, you repealed the resolution ? A. I beg' your pardon, that was not the idea, and that was not the object. It would not affect companies doing a purely mntual business, as there was no tariff rate for them. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Coming back to that matter again, there was no rate on non-hazardous risks ? A. No ; not on farm properties. As a matter of fact, companies acteJ on that prin- ciple before there wa** any resolution. Supposing yon are a manufacturer of agri- xsnitnral implements, and you have an agent in London, who took an agency for some other manufacturer, and was selling his machine at a less price than yours; I do not think you would stand it. I do not think you would allow him to be your agent. Q. It has been stated here that it was almost a necessity for an insurance agent, in order to be successful, to be the agent of three or faor companies? A. He will do^ better, if he devotes his fuU time to it. Q. You prevented Mr. Macdonald's agents from representing any of those th i rty-t wo companies ? A. No; he could not. Q. That was boycotting Mr. Macdonald's company? Mr. BoYLB — This only shows in a degree one purpose of the association. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. There is no restriction now ? A. None whatever. By Mr. Guillet : Q. With reference to risks that are non-hazardous, what are these ? A. There are churches, schoolhouses, dwellings, and all kinds of farm property. Q. Those you have a tariff rale on ? A. No ; no tariff rate. Q. is ever had? A, Yes, we had; just the same as we had with others where their companies would agree to it. It was repealed. I think, however, in the Province of Quebec they have a tariff for farm property tl re. Q. As a matter of fact, the association has removed irom the tariff all non- hazardous risks in Ontario, but kept them in force in Quebec ? A, They did not remove what was not in existence. Q. Isolated dwellings and farm property, these risks were at one time under the tariff? A. Yes; for probably six months. A tariff was proposed at one meeting and repealed at the very next. Certain companies did not give in their adher- ence, so that it was not carried unanimously. You will see by the minutes how long it was in existence. By Mr. Guillet : Q. I see that the three years' non-hazardous risks are referred to at a meeting held in Montreal. The report of the meeting speaks of the then existing tariff ratea for non-hazardous three years' risks, and a resolution was adopted to the effect that they be maintained. Then the question was under discussion then. How long previous to that was the non-hazardous risk established ? A Here it is, " that farm property and dwellings generally be rated likewise; churches, schoolhouses and all other exempted property to be included in the general tariff." They were not be- fore that. Q. When was the first attempt ? A. April 2nd, 1886. Q. As a matter of fact it was not reported at all as far as the gen eral associatioih^ was concerned, with the exception of the Province of Ontario ? A. Yes. 432 ROBERT MCLEAN. Q. It was repealed for the Province of Ontario only ? A. Yes. Q. Then it is in force still ? A. I think it is in Quebec, but 1 cannot speak so "well of that Province. I see the minutes say : " The amendment was lost, and the main motion boirg put was carried by 12 ayes to 3 nays." Then it " recommends to the association that the schedule of minimum rates on non-hazardous risks as set forih on page 37 of the Ontario tariff be suspended so far as the Province of Ontario- is concerned— exclusive of the City of Toronto." It is still in force in Toronto. Q. Are you aware that this Mutual Insurance Company of London are not do- ing business in Quebec ? A. I am not aware. I think they do business in Quebec. Mr. McDonald. — We do some business just on the border across the river here D«ar where our Ontario agents happen to be. Q Then this action was forced upon the association by the action of the Mutual of London ? A. I think it was in consequence of the losses on farm property in the Province of Quebec. Q. But as far as the action in Ontario was concerned ? A. It was in conse- quence of tbe members of our association being against it. That was the reason. It "was carried unanimously in the first place, as you know. Q. You think the independent competition of the London Mutual had no effect ■whatever in reducing that ? A. I do not think so. By the Chairman : Q. There were twelve present, and only six voted for the repeal of it, so that it was not unanimously rescinded ? A. It was rescinded all the same. By Mr. Guiltet: Q. Why was the tariff not placed upon dwellings ? A. Because certain com- panies were opposed to tariffs on dwellings. Q. The London Mutual insures dwellings very largely, does it not ? A. Yes. Q. You do not think that influenced your action ? A. No, I do not. Q. Was it never reasoned and arguea that the London Mutual would have the sulvantage if you placed the tariff on dwellings ? A. Not with respect to the Lon- don Mutual, any more than any other. Q. That was one of the objects of meeting this matter in this way ? A. There are several reasons. For instance on isolated property, one company will take the ■whole of it, and they may take it under or over the tariff. There would be a diffi- culty in ascertaining whether the tariff was violated or not. Q. Do you change your rates at certain points where you find local competition xnakes it necessary ? A. They are all rated according to the places they are in. Q. Do you vary your rates where you find local competition with the outside companies, because it would cause you to lose your business, unless you did ? A. The rates are not varied, except in certain cases. Q. Have you at any time modified your rates on account of local competition "with companies who are not in the at^sociation ? A. I do not think so. Q. Was there any resolution passed in the case of Hamilton where it was stated that there was competition with outside companies? A. They have a board of their own in Hamilton. By the Chairman : Q. Does not your association fix the rate for the whole Province of Ontario ? A. Yea. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Was it ever mentioned in the association that you ware losing business in Hamilton on account of the competition at lower rates than your tariff rates ? A. I cannot say that. A letter was read from the secretaiy of the Hamilton board at a meeting held in Montreal on the 12th, 13th and 14th October. Q. Is that a meeting of the association? A. That is a meeting of the assooia- tion. Q. A meeting at Montreal. You were secretary of it ? A. Yes. Q. This clause refers to scheduled rates in Hamilton. It says : " The letter froim the secretary of the Hamilton board, read at Tuesday afternoon's session (vide^ INSUBANCR. 433 No. 59), was taken up in conjunction with the resolution of that board passed on the 11th instant, as follows : ' Resolved, that the increased scheduled rates for specials in Bamilton is forcing some of the largest and best business risks into non-tariff and mutual companies, to the great loss of the tariff companies, and in view of this fact, the Hamilton Board of Fire Underwriters express a hope that the present position of affairs will receive the serious consideration of the general meeting of the Cana- dian Fire Underwriters' Association now in sesbion.' " What action was taken upon that ? A. No action whatever, except after the association was formed we took up this principle of pcheduled rating. By the Chairman : Q. Have you answered Mr. Guillet's question ? A. Which question ? By Mr. Quillet ; Q. Was any action taken to meet that difficulty ? A. I do not think so, with the exception of applying the tariff. Q. Did you change the class in which Hamilton was ? Was Hamilton always in class A? A. Yes. Q. I see here with reference to scheduled rates in Hamilton this also: "The secretary was instructed in reply to the Hamilton Board to say the association had had under its consideration at this meeting the necessity of providing discretior- ary powers in certain cases with regard to schedule rating, and it is believed that the action taken thereupon will to a very considerable extent remedy the matter* complained of ? " A. Well, they gave me at that meeting certain di-scretionary^ powers in regard to special cases. Q. You had discretionary power ? A. Yes. Q. And you applied it to Hamilton ? A. Not specially to Hamilton any more than any other place. By the Chairman ; Q. You are not answering the question? A. When the principle of scheduled rating was first introduced there was great opposition to it. It was not very well understood. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Did you exercise discretionary powers ? A. We have now three experts in the whole Province inspecting risks and tell the insured what to do with respect to improving his risk, and thus improve his rate. He did so in Hamilton. Q. And the result was that there was a redaction made ? A. But they made improvements in the risk. By the Chairman : Q. Mr. Guillet is asking you with reference to the sending of an expert up ta Hamilton and getting matters arranged. Can you cot give a straight answer ? A. You will surely allow me to explain how we carried out that inspection, Mr. Chair- man, 1 have no desire to evade any question. When these American mutuals came over and were cutting in on underground insurance, we felt that we could not lose it from any others because all the stock companies are in the board. Q. What do you mean by underground insurance ? A. Underground insurance companies, companies not licensed by the Dominion or Local Parliaments. The way the business was going, these underground companies came here and cut into the Canadian and British and all companies, in fact, in the association. They had no de- posit in this country, they were not licensed by the Dominion Government and had no right to do business. Against this sort of eompetition we we:e not protected in any way. Q. Do those companies which are not licensed do business here, then ? A. They do, sir. Q. Is there no way of stopping them V A, We tned it, but were blocked in the last Parliament, and they came in and cut rates without contributing to the expense of the insurance companies. They pay no taxes, no commission to agents, and we cannot get the work done. 3-28 434 ROBKRT MCLIAK. Q. Ho«' do they get the work done if they have no agent? A. They cannot have any a^ent. By Mr. Boyle: Q. The insured party goes oatside of the country and places his insurance in Amerioiin cities ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. The underground company does not come here at all then ? A. No ; be- cause no agent can place a risk in an underground insurance company without a penalty. It must be done by the insured himself. He must go over to the United States and come back with his insuranca policy in his pocket. He can come back with the policy in his pocket, but I am not allowed to go over and bay even a coat without paying the duty. By Mr. Guille.t : Q. After all, the Hamilton board did say that they lost business through non- tariff companies ? A. They could not put them in any other way. Q. It is rumored that they did not say so ? A. All the companies in Canada are in the association, with the exception of the Queen City ot Toronto. By the Chairman : Q, The operation ot these underground insurance companies is, as I understand it, that they send a man over here, and if you want the insurance you write over to Buffalo ? A. If you write over to Buffalo you will find out about the underground companies. Q. Is it not explained here? A, No. Q. Probably thtt was after your tariff came into force. Perhaps your high tariff drove the neople out of the country to do business? A. There was under- ground insurance before. Q. Was there a grievance ; was there much of it done before? A. We were not in the position to know that we are now. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. There is one assumption at any rate, they get it at lower rates or they would not be induced to go there ? A. They can afford to cut their rates if they have no office expenses in Canada, no taxes to pay in Canada and no license to pay for doing business in Canada. By the Chairman : Q, The expenses will be as heavy in a city in the United States as in Canada? A. Bat they have none here; they have no office expenses here. By Mr, Guillet ; Q. Yes ; but the parties who want to be insured have to go to some expense, and they are running greater risks than they would if they are doing business regularly ? A. Yes, the agents take care that they do not take the risks. They are very care- ful of that. 1 thiuk the penalty for that is $1,000. Q. Yes; but doing business in that blind way, they are not in a position to en- quire into the risk, and must be doing business at a great deal of risk ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Their agent comes over here and makes a survey, and that agent must have expenses ? A. Yes ; I suppose so. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Can you tell us any more about the pcocess itself? A. I do not know that I can. By the Chairman : Q. What do you know about the operations of this underground business ? A, I only know it from hearsay, but I understand that the way in which it is done is that a person comes over and reports to probably more than one company, and after he has made a survey of the country, he goes back again. He may be in the em- ployment of several companies. He tells you what kind of a risk it is, and at what rate he can take it, but the insured himself writes and effects the insurance, which INSUBANCE. 435 he can do legally, but he cannot employ any agent in Hamilton, for instance, to do the thing for him. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. One other matter in connection with this : You say all the stock companies are in the combination and therefore the competition in the cities could not arise because they were the only ones that would do the business ? A. Yes. Q. Now, as a matter of fact, don't the other companies still do a pretty largo business in the cities outside of the large commercial risks' on private dwellings? A. Private dwellings in Hamilton and Toronto are rated, but not in any other part of the Province. They are not rated in London perhaps. Q. As a matter of fact, there is competition between you and the mutual com- finies for all that class of risks ? A. Yes; they can be an agent and mutual agent, know an agent in Hamilton who is agent for two companies. Q. Matuals take them up the same ? A. Yes ; I believe so. Q. Mutuals would compete with you to that extent or the Hamilton agents would grumble about that? A. There are only two or three mutuals that take commercial risks. The Gore Mutual and the Waterloo Mutual are, I think, the oaly two mutual companies that take cash premiums, that take commercial risks. The London does not take commercial risks now, but it used to. By Mr. Guillet : Q. It takes non-hazardous risks in cities to the same extent ? A. Yes ; dwell- ings, churches and public schoolhonses. Q. Then you never have placed a tariff upon dwellings and churches ? A. Ex- cept as you eaw it there. Q. For that time ? A. Yes. Kyou have time to go over that you will see the 'whole thing there. Q You think that action was not influenced by the fact that the London Mutual was in operation ? A. Not a bit of it. It was in consequence of the opposition made to the companies in the association . It was not unanimous in the first place. Q. But had there been no London Mutual or other companies doing business in that line there would not have been this opposition ? A. Yes, certainly there would have been such opposition. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I was going to ask you the objects you had in view in forming the associa- tion ? A.I can tell you the object we had in view. Well, our object was that we found that bnsinees was not paying. There were companies previous to the formation of the tariff in 1883, Canadian companies that went out ot existence, the Canadian Fire and Marine, the Sovereign, Provincial,,Stadacona, Dominion, National, Standard and Canada Agricultural and Ottawa Agricultural with a capital of $21,500,OOU and . a subscribed capital of $7,402,616. Q. These were all stock companies ? A. Yes ; and in almost every case they lost the whole of their capital. This was previous to the formation of the tariff. Then I have here one of them, specially, the Sovereign. I have all the details of the Sovereign Insurance Company, when it was woundup they had lost $129,880 of their capital after paying their losses. Q. The object was you say to make some money out of the business and make the business pay ? A. Yes ; to make the business of insurance pay, which it had not done. The Chairman — Confine yourself to the answer of Mr. Boyle's questions. By Mr. Boyle : Q. I have no objection to your making explanations after ; why could not the business betnade to pay like any other irrespective ot the combination ? A. Simply because there was such a competition and a rush for business at any price, that they took it so low that so many companies faikd, and the others finding that the same kind of competition lasted, it would end in their failure too. Two of the companies with- drew from the country in consequence of it, the Stadacona Commercial and Scottish Luperial, with their usual Scottish foresight, left the country. 3— 28i 436 ROBERT MCLEAN. Q. These companies that withdrew their business failed in time ? A. You will find that what I say of insurance companies prior to 1883 is true if you will take the trouble to look through this. Q. Immediately after formation, what steps did you take to make it pay ? A. Uniform rates for all companies, principally preventing their taking risks at low rates, having the same tariff for all companies. Q. Only that the tariff was higher than when the competitive tariff was in operation? A. Very little though, I don't think that in many cases it is any higher. We took that tariff in 1878 specially in the first place. By the Chairman : Q. How did the companies break down ? A. Because they were non-tariff companies. Q. There were several companies that did not come into that association ? A. !No ; I think they all came in at first. ■ Q. Now, how is this organization sustained ? A. By a contribution on the companies in proportion to the premiums received by each. Q. What is the percentage paid ? A. Well, the association in Toronto I assees for all the expenses in Toronto. I think you will find it in one of these minutes. It will be about probably one-fifth of one per cent, on each of the companies. Now we have got expert insurance men, three inspectors to inspect rieks. They explain to the insured how they can lower their rates. Q. I asked you what was the rate per cent, charged for insurance last year ? A. I could not give you that. Q. About 1^ per cent., was it not? A. There are so many different kinds of risks. Q. The amount paid into your association by the different companies ? A. Oh, it was not ]| per cent. Do you mean for the expenses of it? Q. Yes? A. No, tot one percent, nor a half per cent. Q. How much is paid in altogether by the 32 companies? A. If you will let me have that book I will let you know what is paid in one year. Probably it will be between $3,0t0 and $4,000, that is to pay my salary, which is $2,000, and for other expenses ; paying for the printing of minutes. They have to be paid for. It will be more now since these three inspectors have been appointed. They haven't .been a year with us. By Mr. Boyle : Q. In looking over this report for 1886, I notice some of the companies paid considerable amounts? A. Is that of the association alone ? Q. Look at page 29, the City of London Company ? A, Yes. A. It says here, the Underwriters' Association, $600.19 from one company ? A. The City of London never paid that. I don't know what that meant; they only pai d about $87. They never paid anything of that kind. Q. Turn to page 35, the Commercial Union ? A. It would be what is paid to our association. Q. $937.92 ? A. $937.92. Well, you see there are associations in New Bruns- wick and Nova Scotia. There is an association in Quebec and Ontario, and probably that is the whole. Q. Take the Fire Insurance Association, page S9? A. Well, that is $681.10. You will find that this is for the whole Dominion. Q. Turn to page 43. This is the year 1886, $641.14 I think it is marked there ? A. It is expenses, $6^1.14. Q. Look at page 59? A. I was speaking for the Toronto branch of the asso- ciation, $768.19 ; insurance superintendence, $238.02. ^ Q. I am speaking now of the sworn returns shown as being paid in for the porpoee of keeping up the Underwriters' Association ? A. Throughout the whole Dominion, I presume. Q. Yon are the secretary for the Dominion ? A. No; just for the two provinces. INSURANCE. 437 Mr. Boyle — Assuming the eame rate to be paid by all companies, some of them 4o not give it in detail. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Do you mean to say that this association extends only over two Provinces? Ai The Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association only extends to two Provinces, at Montreal and Toronto. By Mr. Boyle : Q. That was what they paid to the Fire Underwriters' Association, which aro «worn to and according to that it would make an income of $ £0,000 a year ? A. Yea. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You expenied nearly $46,000 ? A. I don't think that possible. By the Chairman : Q. How can you account for that $20,000 ? A. 1 cannot say what it has averaged for the year in Ontario. Q. We want to know where this $20,000 went? A. I cannot tell you about that. By Mr. FisJier : Q. I understood you to say you were the secretary of the joint association in Ontario and Quebec? A. Yes. Q. Were there not expenses in each Province independently of what you had ? A. Yes. Q. This association of Montreal had expenses of its own ? A. Yes. Q. And Toronto had its own ? Yes. Q. So that the expenses that you control are only that of the joint meeting of these two Provinces ? A. The whole of the Province of Ontario so far as rating and everything else is concernedi By the Chairman : Q. You say that they only paid in $37 and the sworn return says $600 ? A. It may be 1887 that was $«9, It will be more now because this last year — The Chairman — We are speaking of 1886 Mr. BoTLE— McLean knows nothing about the diflPerence ; we accept yonr state- ment. Bji Mr. Boyle : Q. This Underwriters' Association may have some work on hand that you are not cognizant of? A. I am cognizant of everything done in the Province of Ontario. By Mr Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. What does it cost in the Province of Ontario under your supervision ? A. I r,ly, Q in Ontario ? A. No ; every cent spent in Ontario goes through my hands. By the Chairman : Q. How do you account for that $600 in the case of one company ? A. It was probably on New Brunswick or Manitoba. They would have to pay for the board in Winnipeg and Nova Scotia and Ntw Brunswick. They have oiganizations there. Q. Oh, they have organizations there? A. Yes; that is what I said. By Mr. FisJier ; Q Have you any moneys you use for the joint association ? A . When a meeting is held in Toronto the expenses of that meeting, publication of the minutes which i.^ the principal expense, I pay ; but I do not pay any expenses for members coming to Toronto to attend thai meeting. It may be that they charge to the companies at home. Q. Is the joint association not a separate organisation from each local associa> tion. That is to eay, are you secretary of the Ontario Association and over and above that secretary of the joint association ? A. There are two secretaries. Q. You are secretary for Ontario ? A. Yes. Q. And Quebec ? A. Mr. Hager is secretary for Quebec and assistant secretary for the joint association, Q. You are secretary for the joint association too ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any books in which you record the accountsof the joint association separate from the Ontario Association ? A. No, none whatever. Q. So the statements you are to send us are the statements of the Ontario Asso- elation ? A. It is called the Ontario Branch ard the Montreal Branch. Q. Is there any common fund which the joint aseoeiation has to draw from ? A. No. Q. Then when you meet in Ontario the Ontario Association pays the expenses ? A. Yes. Q. And when you meet in Montreal the Montreal Association pays them? A, Yes ; but there is only the minutes to be paid for. Q. Is there any other expense in which the joint association has a common fund ? A. No ; each branch pays its expenses. 440 ROBERT MCLEAN. By the Chairman : Q. When they come to Toronto you pay the expenses ? A. I do not pay them, anything as individoals. Q. You pay the expenses while they are meeting as an association — the print- ting ? A. Yes ; but no other. I do not pay their hotel expenses. Q. Do you entertain them? A. Sometimes they have a little dinner. Q. Any wine ? A. No ; I do not drink. Q. But yon pay the bills ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q The personal expenses are charged to the different companies ? A. I should fiay they would be. I do not know. By Mr. Fisher : Q. When you entertain them in Ontario that is charged to the Ontario Associa- tion ? A. YoH, and paid for. I hate to sign the cheque too. Q. The statement you are going to give us is a statement of the expenses of com- panies in the Ontario Association ? A. Yes ; and I promise if you say so that I will get the Montreal secretary to send you a statement of the Montreal branch also. Q. 1 underbtand you to say there are other associations in other provinces with which you have nothing to do ? A. No doubt about that. Q. I understand then these statements in the blue books are towards ail the funds in the Dominion? (No answer.) JBy the Ghairman : Q. If they did the business in the Province of Ontario and Quebec all would come into the hands of Mr. McLean ? A. The secretary in Montreal pays all expenses in connection with the Montreal branch. Q. The association which has all its business in Ontario pays all its money to you ? A. Yes, of course through me. By Mr Fisher : Q. But there are associations in Ontario which have agents in Quebec and do business there. Such a company would pay its proportion of the Quebec business to the Quebec secretary and not to you ? A. That is right. By the Chairman : Q. Does your association take into consideration the moral risk ? There is not discretion. The agent is the only one who knows the character of the man whom he is going to insure. There is a cast-iron document he makes all comply with ? A. The agent is supposed to give the moral hazard in the application and it will vary the action of the company. Q. But it will not vary the amount paid ? A. Noj that would be a very diffi- cult nciatter of business. By Mr Boyle : Q. Your minutes show complaints coming in of companies violating the rates. What do you do ? A. Nothing. We simply put their names there (pointing to the minutes). There is no expulsion or fine. Q. They are compelled, howevor, in certain oases to cancel the risks ? A. Yes. By Mr. Casgrain : Q There is only themoral honor binding ? A. That is all. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Then in such a case the man who believes that his insurance will hold for a year, and two months afterwards he receives a notice that he is not insured. That 18 one of the eflfects of this arrangement? A. Yes; I presume that will be the effect. An agent, in order to get bubiness, will give what is not the tariff rate, and will say, "1 am sure they will accept it." He sends it down in this way, and it is refused of course, Q. In the case I have referred to the policy has been actually issued by the company ? A. They have power to cancel it in ten days. By Mr. GuilUt : Q, If made contrary to rule, you may cancel them ? A. I will a^k the com pan j to cancel them. I have no power. I do not deal with the policy-holder. INSURANCE. 441 Q. Tbe f-ecretary of the association has power to panish the company ? A. No; we dimply pat their names in the minutes as having violated the tariff. That in tho only punishment. By Mr. Gillmor : Q* Do you not put them out of the aesociation ? A. No ; as soon as exposed, it is expected that they will be better boys the next time. By Mr. Boyle : Q, The practical unfairness is that the insured party suffers from that. There 18 a contract in honor if not in law, that they will have insured him and without any offence on his part, tbe contract is cancelled ? A. fie gets ten days. By Mr. F.sher : Q. Have you known any companies who refused to cancel such risks ? A, S ome have not. Their names are put down. By the Chairman : Q. A good many have been catcelled ? A. Yes ; or the agent collects the extra amount. It is no hardship. If they insure elsewhere they have to pay the tarifE rate, and if they would pay us in the first place, they would save that. Q. Here is a resolution adopted in reference to this point : — " If a company ac- cepts and renews a risk below tariff rate, or if a company renews a risk more t^an once below the tariff rate, or accepts or renews a risk which has been specilS- ing since. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Have you made a particular study about tariffs of insurance as to high or low rates, can you say technically or by your study or knowledge whether these com- bined tariffs are high or low, or are medium tariffs, and whether it is injurious or beneficial to the public? A. I believe it is beneficial to the public. I believe it ia a minimum tariff and as low a tariff as can pay at all, and your own inspector of insurance in 1883 gives the losses of the companies and regrets that they have been so great; Q. But of your own particular knowledge I am a^-king, not that of the Inspector of Insurance ? A. Of my own knowledge, I believe that these rates are as low as they ought to be, because the companies have net made 4 per cent, on their capital within the last eighteen years, and you can see it in this book. By Mr. Bain {Wentworih) : Q. How do your rates compare with what they formerly were? A. They are very little higher. In some cases they are higher, and in others they are not higher. Q. What would be the average percentage of increase? A. You could not tell, there are so many. For instance, first-class stores are only 65 cents, and the con- tents of first-class stores are 75 cents per hundred dollars, that is in an "A " town. In a ''B " town it is higher, and in a "C" town higher still, and so on. Q. You would have the same gradations, however ? A. No ; they did not have the same gradations before, and I believe that that was one of the reasons of so many companies failirg. They insured in places where there were no fire appliances, for the same rate as in those places which had fire appliances. Q. But there has been a slight increase in farmers' rates ? A. No decided steps in fire protection have been taken. Q. How is it in the cities? A. I do not think it is any higher. It might be in some instances, but I know that in schedule rating, in some in^tances, it is lower. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Ihe companies pay only 4 per cent, dividend ? A. According to this state- ment they do. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. I think we are all agreed that it has been a profitable business? A. I see here the Inspector of Insurance says, in one of his reports : " The hope expressed in the last report, that the unfavorable results shown by these tables for the three years previous would soon be reversed, has been disappointed. The experience of Canadian fire companies, since the disastrous year 1877, has been very unfortunate^ 414 ROBERT MCLEAN. «o less than eight of them having ceased business. Of those, only one (the Pro- vincial) went into insolvency, and another (the Canadian Ai^ricultural) was placed in the hands of trustees for liquidation . The remainder voluntarily relinquished business and have been wound up, and it is highly satisfactory to state that in none of these latter companies have policy-holders sustained any loss, the claims having been discharged in full. In addition to the above, two marine companies have aho retired, bat without detriment to the policy-holders. The losses to the shareholders, on the whole, could not have fallen far short of two million dollars. The companies fitill acting have also lost considerable during this period. " By Mr, Guillet : Q. Is it not stated by good authorities on insurance, actuaries and others, that the policy of granting commissions on the premiums instead of having a fixed salary is a bad policy and encourages a large amount of bad business ? A. Tas \ that is a thing that a good many good insurance men have said repeatedly. Q. Well, it is considered to be one of the great causes that your losses are so excessive? A. I have no doubt but that is one of the causes. Q. There is a remedy ? A. We cannot pay, I mean that probably it would be impossible for a man to get a salary in some instances. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Taking the last insurance return for 1386, 1 see the percentage of losses paid to premiums received was 866.75 in Canadian companies, $68.59, in British com- panies, and $5').59 for the American companies, an average all round of about $S5. Do the expenses consume the balance of that ? A. The expenses of a company as a rule are from 25 to 33 J^ per cent., according as it is managed. Q. I am surprised at the proportion of the expenses ? A . Well ; you know the Agent gets in many companies fifteen per cent, to start with. Here is a statement that shows eighteen years' business. Q. Well ; then the expenses consume from 25 to 33J per cent ? A. From 25 to 30 per cent, anyway. By Mr. Casgrain : Q. It is more than that the first year ? A. Yes ; it is more than that the first year because the company is organizing then. By Mr. Boyle : Q, Is the business more profitable to your association now than before the com- bination took hold of it ? A. I have no means of ascertaining, I could only tell jou from these books. I have no means of knowing except by these books. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know fiom the books ? A. Yes. I do know from the books. I see by these books that in eighteen years they have lost money. By Mr, Boyle : Q. I asked you whether the association has resulted in increasing the profits of the insurance business? A. I have no means of ascertaining that. Q. I see a table here from 1869 to 1886? A. And that averaged $74.15, and in 1877, the year of the St. John fire, it averaged $225.58, more than double the amount of the premiums received. Leaving out that year the average would be About $60. Q Taking out that year the average would be very much smaller? A. Not over $tiO. There is a liability of there being a large fire at any time. Q. While we think it is prejudicial to the company to take any one year, do you not think it has resulted beneficially to the company ? A. I could not tell that. Q. Including the year of the St. John fire it only reached $74.15 ? A. Excep- tional losnes must be considered. Last year there wore exceptional losses in the city of Montreal. Q.' I asked you that question before, where the losses were ? A. There is a ^reat deal in Montreal, but it does not oome under my observation at all. INSURANCE. 445- William Hugh Lowbie, of Buseell, sworn : By the Chairman : Q. Tou are doing an insnraEce business, Mr. Lowrie ? A. I have not been doing any insurance business for the last year. Q. You have had how long an experience ? A. About eight years' experience. Q. As agent; whereabouts? A. In the county of Eussell. Q. You have had experience then during the combination that has been formed and previous to its formation ? A. Yes. Q. What is your opinion of this association or organization, or the effects of it? A. My experience was that there was a great falling off in the better class or business in the country. Where there were no fire appliances ut all I found that the better class of risks were dropping off. Q. But the tariff did not materially increase ? A. Yes ; afterwards risks that were taken at one per cent, were raised to one and one-quarter per cent. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What class of insurance business were you engaged in ? A. A commercial and farming business. I have not been doing business for the last year. By the Chairman : , Q. You found the tariff materially raised ? A. Yes. Q. And the effect was that many of the better class of coBtomers would not insure? A. Yes. Q. How was the moral risk affected ? A. We were not allowed to take any moral risks, more than that for a man with a good moral character we could take a lower rate. But under the tariff all wooden buildings came under a certain class, and we could not take below the rat^s fixed. Of course we were allowed to goabove it where we thought it was necessary. Q. And the effect was that the moral responsibility of the agent ceased ? A. We did not take that into consideration at all. Thus we could not make it any lower. Q. Do you think it is better for the insurer, for the country to have that associ- ation agreement, that cast iron agreement abolished altogether? A. I think in country districts it was much better. I think it would be better for the insurance companies and better for the public. That is my experience. By Mr. Gillmor : Q. You think it would be better for the company and the country if agents were allowed to consider the morals of the insured? A. Yes; sometimes a building is made as safe from fire as possible while others are not. Of course if there is no tariff you can make an allowance for that. Where there is a tariff yon cannot. By Mr. Fisher : Q. Your experience would lead you to take this moral risk and make a differ- ence between them ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. What company did you represent? A. I was a sab-agent under Mr. Mund for the Soyal of England, and for the North British American Insurance Com- pany. Q. What percentage of commission did they allow you? A. About 10 per cent. Of course I had to collect it. Q. I suppose the agent had a commission also ? A. I suppose. I think he did. I know nothing about that. Q. Your own was about 10 per cent. ? A. Yes. Q. Well, this tariff rate didn't apply to farm buildings ? A. No. Q. How was it affecting your business ? A. In villages, in a great many coun- try villages where there were no fire appliances. Q. The tariff did apply to them ? A. Yes. Q. Did you find that it had any affect upon your farm risks as well ? A. No. No tariff, they didn't change the risks. 446 WILLIAM HUGH LOWRIK. By the Chairman : Q. There is no tariff on farm property ? A. These companies charged a higher rate than some of the mntaai. We have always insisted on a I per cent, rate on all farm buildings. Q. For three years ? A. Yes. A first class bnilding it wonld be 85 to 90. Of course other companies, the Watertown Mutual, would take the same class of build- ings at 90. but that didn't affect the tariff. By Mr. Guillet : Q. You say there was a uniform arbitrary rate. Would it apply to risks good and bad alike, good risks and poor risks whatever the moral quality of the risk was you could not make a lower rate if one risk was not as good as another in that re- epect ? A. Not lower than 1 per cent. Q. There is no reason why you could not raise the rate on a poorer risk ? A. No; no reason ; we are expected to select the better risk on farm property. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. That was just where the difficulty occurred ? A. That is the way the tariff affected it. Q. How did you operate the moral risk there ? For instance, in a village there are two houses side by side, one is a good man and the other is not quite so careful ? A. In that cage if there was a poor risk the good man had to pay the same as the poor risk. Q. Two men were side by side and were reasonably alike, you would not be able to make the difference between the rates. There would be a row with the man who was charged more ? A. I always make it a point to give the good moral risk a lees rate. Q. How much less ? A. A quarter or off one and a-half per cent. Q. Some of the regulations required them to have certain protection or you would not take them at all ? A. There is no fire protection. Q. I mean the internal ecomony, such as chimneys ? A. Yes ; if there were no chimney we wonld not take them at all. Q. You have a standing rule for all these things, whatever kind of a risk you i;ake ? A. There must be chimneys and sometimes other precautions would have to be taken, but under the tariff you are not allowed to make any allowaace for that. Q You don't make allowances for a defective chimney ? A. If the chimney is defective we don't take them. Q. You made as much difference as one-half per cent, formerly ? A. Yes, one- half per cent. Q. Then what did the new tariff increase these rates to ? A. On a first-olass risk it was one per cent , if it was a first class brick building, one per cent. ; on a wooden building it was increased to two and a quarter per cent. The classes were varied according to tue class of building — 4 classes of buildings. Q. The actual increase would be from a J to J per cent , would it ? A. Yes, on first class buildings it would be increased one per cent., and on second class about the same, and on wooden buildings the increase would be about ^ per cent. Q. That is a very small increase on the most hazardous class of buildings ? A. Yes ; it was not in proportion. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Do you know the rates now of the villages ? A. I don't know of any change this year. Mr. GiLLMOB— I know there is down with us quite an increase. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Did you do any business where they had fire appliances ? A. No. I had a few risks here. I took them according to the tariff, but I have had no experience where there were fire appliances. By Mr. Boyle : Q. There is room for judgment in the transaction in any case ? A. Yea. INSITRANCK. 447 Mr. DdcLean gave the following rates for ooantry stores: First class, $1.50; second class. 81.75 ; third class, $2.00 ; fourth class, $2.'^5. These are buildings not detached. The rates for detached buildings and contents are as follows: — $1.35^ $1.40, $1.65. and $1.15, respectively. Mr. GuiLLBT. — I see that when the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association was first established, at a meeting held on the 3 1st July, 188^, the rates for country «toreswere: Building and contents, not detached, $1.25, $1.50, $1.75 and $1 .75« Then for isolated buildings and contents, $1.25, $1.40, $1.75 and $1.75. The Committee adjourned. HousK OP Commons, 26th April, 1888. The Committee on Alleged Trade and Insurance Combinations met this day, Mr. Wallace, Chairman, presiding. James Boomer, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your occupation ? A. Secretary of the Western Assurance Com- pany, Toronto. Q Where is your residence ? A. No. 47, Isabella Street, Toronto. Q. What is your business address ? A. On the corner of Scott and Wellingtoit Streets, Toronto. Q. What position do you hold ? A. I am the secretary of the Western Fire Insurance Company. Q. Is your company in the association, in the Underwriters' Association ? A. Yes, sir. Q. It was stated here by the secretary, Mr. Robert McLean, that there was a resolution passed in the Underwriters' Aseiociation that those agents who were doing^ business with non-union companies were not to do business with companies in thet association, and that they were to elect which they would serve. Do you know whether that resolution is still in existence ? A. It is not. It was repealed. Q. When ? A. Speaking from memory I could not tell you. Two or three years ago, I should think. By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) : Q. I may say that the minutes show that that agreement that they had for- merly, binding agents not to do business with non union companies, was moved on the I4th of October, 1885, and according to the minutes it was rescinded on the 1st of April, 1886? A. Yes, about two years ago. Q. It was in force from October, 1885, to April, 1886 The Chairman. — Would you read the resolution rescinding it, because one witnesb denies that it was rescinded wholly ? Mr. Bain then read the resolution on the 30th of March, 1886, page 6, of a file of documents before him. By the Chairman : Q. They rescinded part of the resolution ? A. I don't know what the other partis. Yes; it is understood that all agents are to adhere to the rates fixed by the association. By Mr. Bain ( Wentioorih) : Q. You divided the resolution into two sections, one referring to the rates, and the other to doing business with non-tariff companies. Is that the division that i& spoken of? A. That is in reality part of that resolution. By Mr. Boyle : Q. The practical effect of it is that your agents if they accept risks for other Kiompanies must adhere to the rates laid down by yoor companies? A. Yes; that is the practical effect of it. 448 JAMES BOOMER. Q. The other companies then had to become a part of the union ? A. Thai is sot in force now. The agents of oar compaDy are allowed to take risks at less rates than we ask. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. In the same lines as yon do ? A. In the same lines. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Are your agents not bound by some agreement or understanding that if they act for outnide non-tariff companies that the rates must be at least as high as your company's? A* No; there is no such resolution as that in force now. Q. Or no such agreement? A. No, By the Chairman : Q. The original resolution was that they could not act for any other company ? A. Tes. Q, Now you have repealed part of it, they can do business with another com- pany ? A. They can charge whatever rates tbey like as far as we are concerned. Q. For the same class of hazards ? A. Yes ; for the same class of hazards. That is the way I understand it. That other rule is not in force as far as I know. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Has that been rescinded, that part of the resolution? A. It has as far as I jinow. Q. Or is it simply a dead letter on the minute book? A. I conld not tell you whether it has been rescinded or not. I know that I don't take any cognizance of it at all, and I deal with the agents. That is my business. I have charge of the Canadian branch. By Mr. Bain, ( Wentworth) : Q. If i understand you, so far as your practice goes, your practice is without regai-d to that resoJution existing at all if it has not been repealed? A. Yes ; that is the practice. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Wuen did your company join the association, Mr. Boomer? A. At the time it was started. Q. One of the first ? How long ago was that ? A. Three or four years ago — in 1883. Q. What was the motive for organizing the association ? A. Well, it was to establish rules lor the guidance of the companies, to bring the experience, the wisdom and the ability of the different officers together to make these rates and regulations ? Q. You represent the Western ? A, Yes. Q. Was not the Western Apsurance Company conducting a good sound busines3 before that ? A. Well, of coarse we always considered that it was, as far as we knew, but we were willing to take the benefit of all the experience we could get. Q. Had you any other purpose in view in organizing the association ? A. Well, I suppose it is lor the interests of the companies themselves, and I believe it is in the interest of tbe public. Q. You were acting chiefly in the interests of the company, no doubt? A. Naturally, I euppoeie. Q. iiow did you proceed then to work out the interests of the company ? A. By forming ihcso rates and rules and disseminating them amongst the agents. Q. What are the rules ? A. I could not give you the rales from memory. The principal one is to adhere to the tariff. Q. You fixed a tariff then ? A. Yes ; there is a tariff in force now. Q. Is the tariff much in the interest of the public or higher ? A. Well, I know in some cases it is pretty hard to tell whether it is or not. I have never made up any statistics with regard to it, but my impression is that in a great many oases the rates have been lowered. I know that they are on the flour mills. I have hesitated taking some of them, thinking that they would not pay. I thought the judgment of the ttbsociation good enough because all these risks are inspected. The inspectors inspect all ihe neks insured with the companies, and they give them points how INSURANCE. 449 they could fix their building bo as to lower their rates and make them eafe in their own interest as well as the companies, 1 should say. Q. You divide the riskd into classes? By the Chairman ; Q. You say the risks are lower in some things ? A. By the sob edule rating. Q. Before you lowered it they raised the rates all round, practically ? A. Well, it would be very hard to say wb other they raised them or not, because the companies were charging according to their own discretion. Q. Take your own company, for instance? A. Well, in some cases we got lower rates. I could not tell now, exactly. That is five years ago. Q. My experience with your company was that yon raised them ? Yours i& only one branch of the business though. There are two or three branches. By Mr. Boyle ; Q. My own was raised 25 per cent. ? The Chairman. — By the Western ? Mr. BoTLE. — Yes ; by all of them. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you found business more profitable since the organization of the assso- ciation than before ? A. Well, I really could not tell you from memory. I don't think there is very much difference in the results of our company. That blue book will tell. It will give our business and the business of all the companies foryears. All the information is there, my own impression is that it is somewhere about ihe same. By the Chairman : Q. That has not done you much good, then ? A. Well, it has steadied the busi- ness. There is some sort of rule or system about it now, that is about the principal thing. Of course, there are some agents who are not responsible parties, and if ther& is a loss they don't have to pay it, and the commission is a good deal. Q. Their reputation counts for something, too ? A.. Well, it does; but you will understand that in a small place it is impossible for agents to devote all tbeir time to insurance, because it would not pay them. It is just a supplementary busi- ness. You lake a small town ; the average agent would not make a hundred dollars a year out of it. He could not devote his time to that, of course; he would have to be instructed from the head office as to the rates and rules. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Have you increased your expenses in consequence of the formation of tb& association ? A. Well, not perceptibly. Q. Did you pay anything into the association ? A. We are assessed by the asso- ciation in proportion to our business. Q. Will you tell us what you paid last year into the joint fund ? A. I could not tell you from memory. Q. You can tell pretty nearly. You are the secretary of the company. Was it a thousand dollars ? A. No ; it was not a thousand dollars . Q. Was it $600 ? A. I don't think it was $600. 1 cannot tell that. The assis- tant secretary, Mr. Hadrill, can give you some information about that, I don't re- member what the assessment was. By 'Mr. Boyle : Q. A lew of the companies have given the amounts, and they vary from $600 to $900? A. How much? Q. $600 to $900. The City of London gave $660 and the Gommeroial Union $937? A. That must be that there is a local board established by the other pro- vinces, the Maritime Provinces and the Province of Quebec. Q. All the reports made to the Government do not express the amount. There is a general item which covers it. All these other companies have given it in detail. You have not given it in detail ? A. Yes; well, I could not really say. I could not really remember what was the amount we paid, there are so many accounts. Q. Do you think you paid $600? A. We must have paid that. We are assessed in several branches. It is rather too complicated to know what the amount is. Wo^ get an assessment from Quebec and anotber one from Ontario. 3—29 450 JAM£S BOOMER. By the Chairman : Q. McLoan said the Ontario and Quebec companies were all in one ? A. They are all under our management, but different branches. Q. No assessment for the two piovinces aie paid in to him ? A. McLean reoeives the Ontario and Hadrill the Province of Quebec. By Mr. Boyle: Q. "What use is made of this central fund ? A. It is for the expenses of tho as- sociation ; of course there are two secretaries, one in Toronto and another in Montreal ? Q. There are thirty-two companies in the association, and their average pay- ment would probably be between $660 and $900. There must bo a revenue from that source ol $;-IO,0UO a year ? A. Well, the Commercial Union do business about the same as we do. It are larger about $30,000 or $40,000. You can judge Irom that how much we pay. Q. You pay about $900 ? A. It would be a little more than that. It would be $l,00n. Q What we would like to find out is what benefit is it to the public? A. Well, ■what I understand is that I think the system of inspection by the association is in the interestH of the public. Of course, it is a national loss if property burns, the in- surance company pays the loss, still that property is gone, and if the association can by any means at their command improve the risks, I think it is a benefit to every- body, the insurance companies and the public. I think that is what they are doing now. They have certain standards for fire appliances, and they supply the mayors of each of the different municipalities with information whereby they can decrease their rates ; this is a benefit. Q. How many inspectors do you employ ? A. Well, we have in Ontario, we have two. Q. Employed by the association ? A. Two in Ontario, and another in Montreal. Q. Does your company employ a separate officer of that sort? A. Our own company ? Q. Yes ? A. We have an inspector of the company, but it is simply for the bus- iness of the company — settling losses. Q. What are the duties of these association inspectors ? A. They have to ex- amine the risks and go out and report on them. We have forms of the schedule of rating that are filed in the office of the association . There are certain requirements and certain charges for deficiences, these are all pointed out to the parties owning the properties, and they are shown how they can make their mill or factory better than it is, and where they can get a lees rate. Q. They have nothing to do with the agents ? A. Nothing whatever. Q. Not even enquiring into the details of their work? A. No; simply the association. I may eay that there is another rule adopted which I think is for the benefit of the manufacturers : that is the co-insurance, where they can get a less rate ; 15 per cent, off, if they insure up to three quarters. It is in their interests to do that. Q. Do you accept rc-insnrance from non-tariff companies or re-insurance with companies In the association only? A. Not without we cannot place it in tariff xsompanies. Q. You give the tariff companies the preference? A. W© do. In fact we have applied for re-insurance to non-tariff companies. Q. In Canada? A. Yes, in Canada. By the Chairman : Q. This joint action, }on say, is an advantage to those who get insured, the in- sured parties? A. I think bO. Q. Can you not have that joint action and the assistance of those travelling agents in promoting tho general welfare without fixing the oast-iron rules ? A. 1 do not know how we could do it ; unless there was an association, there would be no one to regulate it. INSURANCE. 451 Q. Coald you not have an asaociat'on without having a uniform cast-iron tariff? A. That woud be impossible. Q. Without fixing the prices uniformly? A. There would not be much object in it. I do not think we coald accomplish anything either in the public interest or in any other way. Q. Why not? A. 1 cannot say. Q. Can yon not employ these travelling agents to give assistance to the various associations? A. We could if the public would pay for it, but thej' won't. Q. But yon say it pays you and the public aa well. Can you not employ them in the same way? A. I do not know how that would be possible. Q. Then it follows that by the co-nbination you have rn^ed the prices eo that you have a fund which can be devoted for that purpose ? A. Well, the lund is so very small. If you take a large number of compunies it might be sutficient, but if yoa take a small number of companies or even one company the expense would be greater. I think if you take a percentage of the expenses that it will bo found to be so very small thai "it is hardly appreciable to the public, whereas 1 think their benefits are greater. Q. It would not be appreciable by the company if they chose to go on with it without a uniform tariff? A. I had never thought of that. By Mr. Boyle ; Q. The standard rates you have I see here are from " A " to " E " classes ? A. They just indicate certain towns, and how it is served with fire appliances and fire protection in general. " A " is a first class place like Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal. Q. Can you state whether there has been any increase in class " A " since th« MER. Q. That irt before ihe combine ? A, If you go back about threo years and look at our record you will fiod it was about lO per ceut. Q. Perhaps in some years it is not so great, but of course if you can show that in other years it is different we will be very glad ? A. Taking one company is rather a narrow way of getting at the fact. If you take the average of all the companies and then lake the average on the other side you would get at it better. A good deal would depend on the agent and management of the company. In 1884 the amount of premiums received was ^330,000. Q. How long have you been doing business in the States ? A. About 15 or 16 years. Of course the losses paid and the losses incurred are not the same thing. We may have incurred more losses in that year, but in 1884 we received in premiums $330,000 and paid out in losses $249,000. That is about 70 per cent., and if we were to pay out as much as we received we would have very little compensation. By the Chairman : Q. Here is the statement for 1883. Paid for losses incurred during the year $228,000 in Canada. Cash received from premiums $432,000 ? A. That is gross. The gross and net are two different things. Q. Take the net. The net amount was $183,000 for losses and the net amount received for premiums was $33:i,000 in Canada. The American business paid for losses $611,000 net and the amount paid for premiums $826,000 ? A. You will understand that a local company has a better chance of getting better business than other ofBees in the United States. Q. If you will take the ^tna or any of the companies in Connecticut and eom- pare their ratio with ours in Canada, you will find very little difference. By Mr. Boyle : Q. The return for American business is not given in this report ? A. If you will take that, you will find one ming, that is., the average loss ratio on tho other side is less than the average loss ratio in Canada of all the companies, and that is the way to judge them. It is much less. That indicates the business here in 1869, there was no tariff and the premiums of the Western Insurance were $154,000 and the loss was $73,000. By the Chairman : Q. Take the iEtna. The cash for premiums was $114,000, and the amount of the net loss, $57,00'i ; just 50 per cent. ? A. They vary. The Phoenix of Brooklyn's ratio of loss was 117 per cent, last year. Q. It was only 40 per cent, in 1883. They have $37,000 of net income and $15,000 of loHs. That was exactly 40 per cent. A. That is a small business. By Mr. Boyle : Q. Your company appears to have been heavier losers in Canada? A. In the United States, too, a long way heavier. All you have to do is to take the average loss ratio in the United States and compare it with Canada and you will find that Canada is higher. I have not the statement with me, but I can find it in our office. Q. Could you tell us what dividend your company paid during the last year or year previous ■/ A. 10 per cent. Q. On the original capital ? Your stock is at a premium? A. On the par value stock. Q. Do you recollect what it paid in 1882 ? A. I cannot tell you whether it was 32 or 15 per cent. We changed the dividend. We paid during the years there was no tariff about 15 per cent., but since the tariff was establibhed, I think we paid 10 per cent, or less. We went down to 8 last year. By the Chairman : Q. What becomes of the argument that it was necessary for the protection of the companies that this asaociation should be formed ? A. 1 have not oeen arguing that Q. Mr. McLean c^aid that, and said that for their preservation it was necessary; that they were not making more than four per cent. ? (No answer.) INSURANCE. 455^ By Mr. Boyle : Q The peroeniage of 108863 given for the whole of ihe companies in 1885 was 5') per cent ; in 1886, 66-93 percent. What becomes of the rest of the premium? A. Well, as the average is 74 per cent, there is nothing left. That is the average fur a number of yeare. Q. Yes ; taking in 1877 when you had the losses in St. John ? A. But those are the sort of things we have to lay up a rest to meet. Q. Is it possible it could be 25 or 30 per cent ? A. I think it is. We calculate ours at from 25 to 26 per cent. Q. You think the American business is more expensive than a Canadian busi- ness ? A . It is, I know ; but the ratio of loss is less. -Q. What would your American business average; what percentage, 35 per cent.? A. No; I do not think it would. It is calculated and I think it is some- where in the neighborhood of 28 per cent, of course, the ratio of loss being less in the Uoited States than here. Q. Your losses appear to have reached 75 per cent of the premium and the ex- penses 30 per cent, in the United States. You are evidently doing business at a loss in the United States? A. Yes; but we did it at a profit before. We do not know whether we fchould have a loss or not. The bu-inesa you are speaking of is 1886. Last year I think our business was more favorable. Q. In 1886 you must have sunk money in the United States business? A. Yes^ but in the years before we made money. In insurance you cannot from one year to another judge what a company is going to make or lose. Q. At all events you maae 10 per cent, last year, and the year before what did you make ? A. 10 per cent, for the last two or three years. Q. You made losses in the United States but you made them up in Canada? A. We are not altogether in fire insurance. We do a large business in marine, and we receive interest on our investments. I do not claim tnat we have been paying these losses out of our Canadian business. Q This small business has paid all the American losses, and paid a 10 per cent, dividend ? A. We do a marine business as well and make an interest out of our in- vestments. The marine business is done all over. 1 think we lost in the Canadian marine, but not in the American. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is the amount of your paid-up capital ? A. $500,000. Q. And the sub.^cribed ? A. $1,000,000. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Are there any fines for the infringement of the tariff rates ? A. None. Q. Never hnve been ? A. No. i^. What effect has the tariff rate had on your business with your agents. I suppose you come in contact with the agents a good deal ? A. Yes. Q. And know whether they have grievances. How do you ejet along with the rates lately. Are you troubled with agents cutting the rates ? A. I can say safely that we have very little trouble. Q Occasionally they bring in policies at lower rates ? A. That is very likely to occur. We appoint new agents and all they have to guide them ia this tariff. They muke a mistake ; it is not by design. Q. They do not leave out a point to indicate that they have taken it too low ? A. Not so lar as the tariff is concerned, the tariff being minimum. Q. If you got an agent who did not go below the minimum rate but did not give you proper details ; that is made misrepresentations, would you bounce him? A. The assured must suffer in that case. Q. But it would bring him into a lawsuit ? A. We always insist upon them giving us full details in the application they submit to ua. Q. You would have more diflBculty under the old system where competition was keen and there was no understanding ? A. Ihe business was in a sort of chaos. We were just as likely to charge more than whttt was right as less. 456 JAMES BOOMBR. Q. That woald not hurt tbe company? A. No; the company raised no com- plain <.. Q. But in cutting they would as likely take the minimum rates as the higher? A. They usually took the representations of the assured. Q. Did your agents always inspect the risks ? A. We have a question, have you personally inspected " the risk " on the application ? Q. Tbe effect under tbe old system would be that you took them at an average lower rate ? A. As 1 say, we made on some risks and on others I think we would get hurt. It would depend altogether upon the intelligence of the applicant whether he knew wbat the rates of insurance were. It was left in tbe hands of agents. It left ft good deal more to him tben than now, as now he has some basis to go on. Q. The effect is that you have a basis on which your agents have instructions to take risks ? A. Yes. Q. There is a minimum rate below which if they go the company will not accept? A. That is it. Q. You are all operating on that ? A. Yes. Q. The tendency is that when the Underwriters' Association think that the rate is too low and put it a little higher it stays there all round ? A. Yes. Q. Or it they lower it a little it is rated all round lower ? A. Yes. y That doen not leave tbe agent very much to do ? A. There are other con- siderations outside the ratings which are very important. Q. Speaking of your American business, how do you do it? Do you have a local superintendent in eacb state ? A. We have an inspecting agent who visits each state. In some oases we have a general agent and in some we have reporting agents. Our tendency has been to dit»pense with tbe general agents and put in local and also to put in ^p^Clal agents who will settle lost^es bs well. Q. His duties would be to travel about over the territory ? A. Yes. Q There wa- something came up hero incidenialiy wiih respect to underground insurance. Do your agents complain much? A. You mean at places like Windsor, It is comparatively an unimportant point and we do very little business. There is not much business to do. There are not any risks of any account in any of them. Q. Do ihey touch you in Toronto and St. Catharines ? A. Yes ; they have taken large risks there. Q. Do they take large risks? A. Yes; large manufacturing risks. Q. They do not drift into ordinary small risks ? A. No; I know of no small risks. Q. When there is a really first class valuable property to be insured they try to take that ? A. 1 know thty cut quotations, but of course we get very little informa- tion. It is all surmise on our part where it goes ; they say: " we placed it else- where." In a great many cases people threaten to do this when they cannot get better terms. American companies as a rule fight shy of Canada. They look upon Canada as a very bad field, notwithstanding the tariff. Q. Then the tendency was to do business with men who could offer them a first class risk and induce ibem to take it at lower rates ? A. Yes; that is the tendency. Q. Then the assumption is that they cut on rates ? A. These are all mutuals. ho stock companies on the other side that I know of do that. Q. Do they take them on a cash basis here ? A. I think not. I think it is on a mutual plan. Q. They take their risk with other members of the association in their assess- ment? A. Yes; that is the way I understand it, but I have no deSnite information on these points. Q. So far as you are aware that is the case ? A. Yes. Q. That is, thai it is not the American stock companies, but it is the American mutuals ? A. You will see that although there are very large stock companies over there, very few come he^-e to do business. By the Cfuiirman : Q. Did you not have a f^chedule of your prices before the Underwriters' Aseooia- tion was established &nd pretty Btrict rules for the guidance of your agents ? A. No ; INBURANCS. 4^7 years ago we had a book of instrQCtions printed; bat we had nothiog printed or writteD of any account. Q. You had a classification, whether punted or written? A. We had with reference to classes of bnildings. Q. Not of prices to give your agents ? A. No. Q. How did they go ? A. " Go as you please." They had the current rates . By Mr. Bain ( WmtwortK) : Q. You had no printed tariff for the guidance of your agents ? A, We had none. Q None previous to this combination? A. Years ago there was a book issued by our company in which we gave them a general idea ot what the rates were, but we gave them no tariff. Q. But a man going out into the country would he not have some idea? A. No ; that is a small business. By the Chairman : Q. Were tbere no rates for wooden storee or brick stores? A. No; we bad no rates. We had no rates we would tuke them at* There was nothing definite to give an agent. Q. They are, of course, submitted to you, and, therefore, when the application came in you could send it back if you refused it ? A. You know there was a tariff before this last one established in 18'72, or somewhere thereabouts. The companies had been going on on the basis of these rates. They had not been sticking to them, but they had been going on the basis of these rates. Mr. Bain.— Mr. Boomer is speaking of a uniform tariff as between companies, and we are speaking of a unilorm tariff as between companies and their agents. Ho is assuming that there was a combination rate. The Chaibman. — He says his company bad no tariff. Witness. — We had no tariff of our own. We had this tariff years ago that they were supposed to go on. Q. It would be chaos without a tariff? A. That is exactly why this association "was established. That is what we think this association supplies. Q. How could yon control your agents without that? A. You wiil understand, sir, that the combined experience and wisdom did not amount to very much. If they took a risk it might be declined by the company. By Mr. Boyle: Q. Thaiirt not the point the Chairman is asking. Could you not instruct your agents? A. We gave them general instructions. We had no special instructions. Q. Did you lay down a tariff like that ? A. No ; I did not do it. The Chairman — There is a firm building that is a quarter of a cent. There is a factory, that would be 65 cents. By Mr. Bain ( Wenlworth) : Q. ^ou would be at sea without a tariff. The agent might take a risk at any- thing. An agent might take a rate on a dwelling at 50 cents without a tariff when it should be from 75 to fcO cents? A. That is the way they were doing. For instance, if an agent gave us a risk on a dwelling house which was perhaps 20 feet from a planing mill, the applicant is equally responsible with the agent, because he signs the ap- lication. By the Chairman : Q. Who is the agent tor ? A. He is the agent for the company. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You make out that he is the agent of the insured ? A. Well, L don't know "that we do. Q. Is that not the custom ? A. To make the agent Q To make the agent the agent of the insured instead of your agent ? A. We are not responsible Jor his acts if the application is signed by the insured. Q. For instance, it' an agent took a risk oa a building and there was a planing mill twenty feet away and the application did not show that so that an increased. 458 WILLIAM TATLEY. rate coald be had, yoo would repudiate it on the ground that the man signed the application ? A. Yes j the man signed it. Q. Your agent drew it out ? A. He acts as the man's agent if he draws it out. Q. He comes with the application as the agent of the company and the applica- tion is based upon the representations of the agent? A. It is the representation of the assured. Q. He is there on the spot and knows the character of the property and he fills it out ? A. Exactly. Q. If he does not inform the company of that he is certainly committing a breach of trust ? A. We consider that he is the agent of the man. The applicant is certainly resposible for the application that is signed by himself. We have certainly to pay losses we are not liable for. By Mr. McKay : Q. What do you pay the president of your company ? A. The president of our company does not get a salary. He is voted something at the end of the year. He h&d the director's fee. The managing director manages the business. Q. What amount is voted to him ? A. $1,000, I think, he gets, in addition to all his director's fees, Q. What are the directors' fees ? A. It is so much divided ; I think, $3,000 amongst them. Their attendance regulates what they get at the end of the year. That is divided amongst them at the end of the year. Their attendance regulates how much they get. By the Chairman : Q. What is the salary of the managing director ? A. $6,000. Q, Is that the average salary for insurance companies of that sort ? A. In the United States they pay much higher. That is not very much for a business of $1,500,000 to 82,000,000. Looking at that way it is not very much. By Mr. Boyle : Q. In that report, the last one published by the Government, the miscellaneous payments for general American expeiises were $66,552, while the Canadian general 4 xpenses were $9,042, so that American business is more than the Canadian business. A. It is more than that. Q. One i« $331,000 and the other is $796,000 ? A. That is about 2^ times. Q. So the American business costs more ? A. Yes. The Committee adjourned. House op Commons, Ottawa, 27th April, 1888. The Committee on Alleged Trade and Insurance Combinations met this morning, Mr« Wallace, M.P., in the chair. William Tatley, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Give your nariie, occupation and address? A. William Tatley, Manager of the Iloyal Insurance Company, Montreal. Q. Is this the Englieh Royal ? A. Yes ; the other is called the Roval Canadian. Q. You are connected with the Royal Insurance Company? A Yes, of Eng- land. Q. Your residence is Montreal ? A. The head office of the company is Montreal. Q. Where does your company do business? A. All over the Dominion and all over the world, in fact. Q. In all the Provinces ? A. Yes. Q. Are your company members of the Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. We are. Q. How long have yon been connected with that association ? A. I think th& associaiion was establibhed in lb83. We have been members of it in the commence* ment. INSURANCE. 45^ By Mr. Casgrain : Q, This at-sooiatioD is for the Dominion only ? A. Yes, for the Dominion. Q. Not abroad ? A. This association only applies to the Oominiou. Q. Your company is doing business in England and other places ? A. We do business all over the world, in all the countries. Q. Tn the United States and Gieat Britain? A. Yes. Q. Your association in Canada regulates the tarifi, that is one important object?' A, Yes. Q. They make a uniform tariff for all the members of the association ? A. Yes. Q. There is an association in England as well as this one in Canada? A. Yes, and it has always been so. Q. Do they regulate the tariff? A. Yes. Q. Binding each company down to certain tariff? A. Just so. Q. Have you any special knowledge of that association in England ? A. Well, T have been connected with insurance for thirty years. I was brought up with the Boyal, and for fifteen years of that time was connected with British business, and my ' knowledge of it comes from that source. I have been fifteen years their manager in Canada. Q. You say that they have an association in England as well as this in Canada, that you are connected with it, and that they regulate the prices tbe same as your association in Canada does ? A. Yes ; but not perhaps on the same lines because the business is done differently there ; but they have a tariff regulating the prices of risks in Great Britain. Q. Are these the tariffs of individual companies or the association ? A. The tariff of the association . Q. Are all companies in England in tbe association ? A. To the best of my knowledge every company in England is. 1 have been Eome time away, but at the time I was there every company was a member of it. By the Chairman : Q. Are you aware that a resolution was passed that agents must give up doing- business lor non-tariff companies ? Are you aware that such a resolution was passed in your association ? A. I am aware that such a resolution was passed in the winter of 1885, but I believe it was rescinded within three months. Q. Be careful. A. I think so. Q. Was it not rescinded in 1886 ? A. Well, I am speaking entirely from mem- ory. i4,' It was passed in October and rescinded on the 1st day of April, just about six months. Are you aware whether that was re-enacted ? A. 1 am not aware that it has been re-enacted. Q. Do yon know that it is not re-enacted in either of these associations ? A. Since it has been rescinded it has not been re-enacted. Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge ? A. Yes. Q. And there are two associations, one for Quebec and another for Ontario ? A. That is so. Q. Do you know that it was re-enacted in Ontario ? A. I am aware, of my per- sonal knowledge, that the matter was rescinded and has not been re-enacted. I know it from my own individual company. Q. Do you know of your own knowledge that it was not re-enacted ? A. It wa» not re enacted. I am certain of it. By Mr^ Wood (^Westmoreland) : Q. Your association is not incorporated. It is simply voluntary ? A. Yes, it is simply voluntary. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Have your agents carried out the tariff strictly ? A. Yes. Q. Has there been no complaints made ? A. Yes ; occasionally they may send down a ritk below the tariff rate, but is simply refused. Q. Have ai.y ol your agents been dismissed ? A. No. -460 WILLIAM TATLEY. Q. Is it the custom to dismiss them for infractions of the tariff? A. I am not aware of any being dismissed, but if an agent refused to carry out his instructions he would certainly be dismissed. Q. There is some rule, I understand, that he will be dismissed ? A. I do not know exactly what the rule is, but the secretary can inform you. I am not aware of any. Q. Do you pay agents at all by commission ? A. We mighty in exceptional cases, for instance where they control a district. Q. Does a salary vary in proportion to the business? A. No. Q. You do not pay any proportions of the profits that are made ? A. Well, many of our agents are paid a commission on the profits and more especially agents who control a district. They get a salary as well, or not exactly a salary but a small allowance in addition. Q. Do you believe that this Association of Fire Underwriters has resulted in any benefit to the companies ? A. Well, I undoubtedly do. Q. You have better rates ? A. It is not so much the fact of getting better rates as of steadying them. By the Chairman : Q. Have you better dividends ? A. Of course you are speaking of Canadian companies ? Q. Canadian companies or the Canadian business of the English companies ? A. I do not know as the result of this tariff has had the effect of giving the companies any material difference in the profits, bacause the rates as a whole have simply been steadied, and in fact the association has been an advantage to the public, because as an association we are able to bring a good deal of pressure to bear upon the towns to improve their appliances and so we get a better grade of insurance . Q. But by this adoption of a cast-iron rule you make no allowance for the moral hazard ? A. You cannot possibly diminish the moral hazard under any circum- fitances. Q. YoQ could if you did not Ak a cast-iron tariff? A. I do not see that. Q. By fixing a cast iron tariff you leave nothing to the discretion of the agent? A. If a man wants to burn his place down, if a man's moral perceptions are so bad, it does not matter what kind of a rate he pays, because the difference in the rate is so small that it would not be worth his while. Q. There are a great many gradations between a man who is upright and a man who deliberately goes into an insurance company with the deliberate intention of burning down his buildings. There are men who are a little indifferent who might bo just as anxious to get the money, but they would not burn it down themselves; There are all gradations between these two extremes ? A. It is impossible that you can tell where the moral hazard comes in. Not one man in ten could do it. Q. The agent seeing a man and knowing his character, if he was allowed a little discretion and used it judiciously to take into account the moral aspect of the case. Did it occur to you that by your tariff you did not allow tbat ? A. I think that the agent is in a vastly better position by the tariff than he has hitherto been without it. Kor instance, suppose that tariff has the effect of enabling the agent to get better rates ; therefore, if he has not tariff he works harder and gets the same amount of money and tbe tendency would be for him not to be so careful, but that he would be more careless as to the kind of risks hQ would take. Q. These are the minimum rates? A. Yes. <^. Do you know of any insurance companies that have insured above those tariff rates? A. Certainly; many places that are endangered are not taken into a company unless we get a higher rate. Q. What provision is made for them? A.. That is always taken into aooount. We charge a higher tariff for a frame building, ai)d if that frame store was in a 4)Jock of frame buildings, no company would take it at the minimum rate. INSURANOS. 461 Q. I do not say the misimum rate, but in the whole tariff there is a minimum for each class. You have a class that would go in ? A. Yes. Q. You have a rate fixed for it ? A. Yes. Q. And you take it at the fixed rate, at the tariff rate ? A. We must not take it at any lets than that. Q. Do you charge more? A. Yery frequently we charge more. Q. More than the highest rate marked ? A. Yes ; it depends entirely upon the risk. That is all taken into account. For instance, lake a iramo building in amongst other buildings, or that has a planing mill forty feot from it. Q. You have an arrangement for that? A. No. By Mr. Gmllet : Q. I do not see where the moral ri>k comes in if the agent is bound down. A man who is intemperate in his habits and principle^, and who is, perhaps, liatle to go into insolvency, ■ a man like that would be as much sought for as another riek. There is no question as to the character of the risk if the agent rocommends it. It meets all the requirements according to the t«riff ? A. Your ideas of the moral hazard run on different lines from what I mean. I am speakiog of the moral hazard Q. I understand that there are certain classes which you consider more hazardous than others. Insurance men have told me that, but I do not see where there is any opportunity of dealing with the moral risk A^-hon an agent timply depends upon the amount of business he does. He would recommend anyone wil- ling to pay the tariff laid down ? A. I have said that it is impostible lor the com- pany to control a moral hazard. The moral hazard is where a man insures his property with the distinct purpose of burning it down. By the Chairman : Q. Oh, no? A. That is what we understand by a moral hazard. We do not underbtand any other kind of moral hazard than that. Q. Is not the moral hazard a man's general reputation and his ability to pay ? He has a flour mill, for instance, or a saw mill, and the stream is dried up and there is no further use for it. Does not the moral hazard come in there ? A. Well, of course, there is a certain amount of moral hrzard. Q. You say that the only moral hazard that you know of is the man who insures his property with the deliberate intention of burning it down. You know of no such man, because no man would ever tell you that. A man may take out an insurance policy with the purpose of burning it down, but he never tells you that ? A. We inculcate upon our agent to be careful, and all companies do. They inculcate upon their agents the necessity of being careful in the interests of the company that they are representing. Q. That is not the question ? A. That is the question in this way, that if a man takes a risk Q. We are talking about the moral hazard ? A. I am giving my view of the moral hazard. I know of no other view of the moral hazard than the one which I have expressed. Q. No other view except that of the man who insures for the purpose of burning down the building ? A. No. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Are the rales higher in Quebec than in Ontario ? A. Not in towns of the same grades, with the exception of Montreal, which we have had to deal with exceptionally on account of our experience there. By Mr . Casgrain : Q. Large firea ? A. Yes; extremely disastrous fires during the last two or thr«o years. By the Chairman : Q. Where have you met with losses during the last two or three years ? Which has been the less profitable, the town or country districts ? A. If you speak of any given year, I may say that last year the cities were the most unproductive, but by 462 "WILLIAM TATLBT. only taking one year you cannot arrive at the average. With the higher rate wo get in places which are not so well protected, it enables us to get about the same rate of margin, but the cities give us more profit one year and the towns another. Q. Can you tell us the basis upon which all the insurance companies come to an understanding about the uniformity of the tariff ? What I want to know is this : Where you take all your different tariffs together as business men do, upon what basis did you start ? j A. Well, there have been at different times a lot of tariffs in force at different times. There have boen times of course that they haven't been in force, but there has always been something upon which to base the rates at vrhich risks can be taken everywhere. Q. All over the world ? A. All over Canada. Q. Do you make a difference for the Dominion on account of the length of winter ? A. No, that is the same all over ; we regulate the rates almoat entirely upon the appliances of a town for suppressing fires, and from Che general character of the construction of a town. Q. It was stated here yesterday by a witness I think that his company had no tariff, no rule in fixing prices, or anything approaching it, previous to the forma- tion of this association. What was the rule that your company had to guide all your agents ? A. Well, the way wo did, when there was no tariff in an instruction book to ao^enis, the old tariff in force which is graded according to the appliances in use in each town, and we required agents to get that rate, and if they did not get that rate to give us good reasons why they did not get it, and we exercised our own judgment. Q. You had a tariff ? A. We had a tariff, but it was not binding. Q. You allowed some latitude to your agents, just the same as a man in a store as to the prices of things. They are marked at a certain amount, but the clerk ex- ercises his judgment in giving any discount ? A, Except in this case, the latitude allowed would be on account of the competition with other companies, subject to the approval of the head office. Q. You had power to cancel any of them, of course, if they did not meet with your approval ? A Yes. Q. Then you had a tariff? A. In that limited sense. Q. In no limited sense ; you had a tariff and that tariff was subject to the approviil of the head office ? A. As I said before, the rates that we gave to the agent were a guide to him which be was at liberty to Q. If he varied from it he had to give a reason, and in addition to that you were not bound to accept it ? A. No. By Mr. Casgrain: Q. Is your tai iff the same in all parts of the world or in the Dominion ? A. Oh, no; the circumstances ofclimate and everything else have to betaken into account. The rates here are different from what they are in Great Britain, but they are pretty much the same in the towns and cities of the United States, where the climatic con- ditions are about the same. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland ) : Q. There are companies in Canada not included in your association? A. I am not aware of any ttock companies not included in it. 1 believe all the stock com- panies are included in it. There are mutuals in it. Q. Mutual fire insurance companies ? A. Yes, I think there is one stock company not included in it, one only. The Queen City, I believe, is the only one. Q. Do you find competition in these mutual companies or stock companies. Eeally, they are all competitors ? A. Well, so far as my own individual experience goes, I don't find their competition very keen. The competition between mutuals and stock companies is of such a character that yon cannot compete with them. In fact their principles of doing business is so entirely different that there are no means whatever of competing with them. Mutual companies do business at coat and they don't know what the cost will be till after the year is over, and then they make their assessments accordingly. INfeURANCE. 463 Q. Afier you joined the association, was your tariff increased ? Your general tariff? A. I cannot say that as a geneial rule it has been ircreased. It has been rather more the effect of steadying the rates. It was one of the very strong points expressed by the head companies, or at all events some of the head companies of the aasociaiion, that we should be caretul not to go to the extreme, but bring about rates Batislaciory to the public, and it is rather for the purpose of making the insurance body an influential body as a whole, in order to endeavor to im prove their business. -Of course, you will understand that the companies can exercise an iLfluence in a body that is much more powerful than that exercised individually. Q. The competition, before the association was formed, resulted in tha failure of compiinies? A. Undoubtedly. 1 think I can show you by your own blue book that 15 years ago there were 13 Canadian companies, now there are only five in esistence. The rest have gone out of existence, and these 5 they are by no means, some of them, strong. Q. What was the cause of these others going out of existence ? A. Simply that husincfts was done at an anpaying rate. There are only five Canadian stock insurance companit'fl now. Q Bid they go out of existence before the association was formed or since ? A. To the best of my recollection, they all went out previous, when there was no tariff. By the Chairman : Q. Speaking of no tariff, that is not a correct expression ? A. Well, there was a non-binding tariff. Q. You mean a uniform tariff ? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. These companies were all driven out by the competition of the foreign com- panies ? A. Well, I cannot say exactly. They were driven out by the competition with other companies which has been so very disastrous. By the Chairman : Q. Confine your replies to the answer of his question instead of making a little speech each time ? A. Well, there was no binding tariff at the time that they went out but it was simply the disastrous results of their business that ruined them. They took poor risks. Q, You b&y there are only five stock companies in Canada to-day and there were 13 some years ago. How about the English and American companies ? Have they decreased too ? A. No, they have not decreased, although some of the English com- panies have likewise had to retire. Q. How do the numbers of the English and American companies compare ? A. Two British companies and two American companies have had to retire, bat on the other hand they have been replaced by others. Q, What is the result? Have we m:>re American and English companies now than we had, or less ? A. More English companies. About the same number of American companies, I think. Q. Give us the figures? A. The Canadian companies that are here now, are the British America, the Citizens' Q. Give us the numbers ? A. Five Canadian companies here now. Q. And there were 13 ? A. Yes. Q. In what year? A. There were 13 in 1873. Q. How about the English and American companies? A. That I shall have to look at for comparison. Q. How many British and American companies are there now ? You have a list there? A. Yes. There l9 British, and there are 5 American companies. Q. That is 24 outside companies doing business here ? A. Yes. Q. How does that compare with 1873. 1 think there are 3ii companies in your association ? A. There are 82 now in 1887. There have been three since. There is the Mercantile and Waterloo. There are two that don't register in the Dominion. Q. What British and United States companies were in existence in ib73? A. I see that in 1873, there was 12 British companies only. 464 WILLIAM TATLBT. Q There are 19 now ? A. 19 now ; yes. By Mr. Casgrain : Q As appears by the report of the Superintendent of Insarance ? A . Yes. By the Chairman : Q. And the American companies ? A. There were six. You have two additional American oooi panics, and one that went out. Q. And we have an addition of ? A. Seven British companies. Q. Making the number of companies altogether about the same? A. Yes; about the same. Q Well now, perhaps the decrease in the number of Canadian stock com- panies may ha accounted for by the increase of the number of mutual companies. Do you know that to be the fact ? A. No ; I don't, because I have an impression that quite a large number of mutual companies have likewise ceased to exist. I can re- member several of them, but I am not prepared myself to give the exact number that have. Q. You know that a large number have come into existence during that time ? A. Yes; small township mutuals. Q. Larger ones like the Millers' and Manufacturers' ? A. Yes; that is one. Q. There is one called the Millers' ? A. Yes. Q. These two have come into existence within the last few yep*rs ? A. Yes. Q. Now, you eay the effect has been to steady the prices ; the effect of this arrangement of the Fire Underwriters, that that is one of the great advantages. Per- haps I may not see it in that light. Steadying prices means to make a oast-iron rule that does not leave anything to the discretion of the agent who has a special know- ledge, and, therefore, the steadying of the prices, though it might benefit the com- pany, mighi be an injury to the insured of the community ? A. Well, of course, I am speaking generally when I speak of steadying the prices. I have made the state- ment that we have gone on pretty much the same, except that we gave discretionary power to an agent. Q. Do you think the steadying of prices is a benefit to the insured ? A. Yes ;. I do. Q. In what way ? A Because if the insurance companies do not get such a rate tor their risks as will enable them to pay their way and provide something for conflagrations, it is simply to the great disadvantage of the insuredi The companies could not do business here il they did not get a fair rate. Q. That is, it is to the interest of the insured to see that the companies make a good profit ? A. It is to the interest of the insured to see that the companies make a fair margin of profit to enable them to provide for emergencies. We get one or two conflagrations in Canada every year. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What supervision do you take on the nature and character of risks taken by your agents? Have you any inspector ? A. Yes; certainly, we have our own in- spector. Q. What is the nature of his duties ? A. The nature of his duties is chiefly to attend to the adjustment of losses, but he is travelling about the greater portion of the year inspecting our risks. Q. His first duty is to settle losses? A. Yes; not exactly to settle them, but to attend to the settlement of them. Q To adjust the losses, upon which you agree. Of course, his adjustment is not bindintx until your company considers it? A. Yes. Q. Then be gives the surplus time after that to inspecting any of the risks taken by your agents? A. Yes. Q. Do you furnish him with a general list of the risks, or just special oases 7 A. Our agents have the risks. He calls upon the agent and he gives him his risks. Q. The main operations of your company are in Quebec ? A. Yes. Q. How much does your company pay ? A. Do you mean what it amounts to- in a year? IN8UBANCB. 465 Q. Yes? A. It costs us something like $850 a year. Oar tax for five years amonnted to $3,400. Q. How do you raise the money ? A. That we pay ourselves. Q. Was there a special tax on the assured ? Do we in Ontario help to pay it ? A. No, sir ; we have put the tax on the Province of Quebec business only, we have included it in the rate. Q. You have included enough to cover the amount fully? A. Well, we hope so. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. I think ycu can fairly trust the companies in that direction. What propor- tion of time is your inspector able to devote to the inspection of risks, as a rule ? A, I should think fully one-half of his time. You see, if we have a loss in Belleville, ho attends to the loss there, and then he will remain over a day or two longer. Wherfr he goes to attend a loss ha spends some time inspecting risks. Q. Still it will often happen that there are other loases that will require his immediate attention, so he will then be unable to devote very much time to some localities ? A. That is not the case, because while that is his first duty to attend to losses, that is not the only one that we depute that duty to. There are special adjus- ters employed, somebody the company will have confidence in. Q. Your inspector does not do all your adjusting of losses ? A. No. Q. How then is he able to supervise risks in localities ? Do they come under supervision once a year, as a rule ? A. He is not able to do the whole Dominion ia one year. There are some places he will not get at perhaps but once in a couple of yearp, but he is, therefore, about pretty nearly all the time. Q. Once in two or three years he is expected to inspect and report on the gen- eral character of the risks in the localities ? A, The difficulty that comes is that he will be in a town three or four times in a year, but we cover bucb a wide space of ground that it might result in him not being able to get there only once in two or three years. That is m some places. Q. Does the result of this inspection often lead to the cancelling of risks? A, Yes. Q. Frequently? A. Frequently. Q I suppose the difficulty in insurance is that the tendency on the part or agents is to take up too high value ? A. It is the case of agents who have not had much experience, but with the experienced agents that is not the case. Q. They take pride in that ? A. They take a pride in it. A well managed insurance company will take care before accepting a risk that the proportions ot insurance and value are not exceeded . The application calls for the value and the amount of insurance is proportionate. Q. In the fixing of that value comes the importance of having first-class agents ? A. That is the case, but at the same time an agent may be deceived, and the agent cannot tell the value of dry goods, say, in stock. Q. There is that difficulty, bat that is only a greater reason why you should have a careful man ? A. Yes. Q I suppose your agents are paid by commission ? A. Our agents are inducei not to do any private business by just getting a commission on the business. The amount of business done in a town is small. A man would not make much over $1,000 A year in a small town. Where we have agents controlling a large business and devoting their attention to it, in perhaps three or four cases we give a salary as well as a commission, or a commission on profits. Q. Where you find them especially desirable men ? A. Where we find them, especially desirable men. Alfrkd W. Had rill, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Give your name, occupation and address? A. Alfred William Hadrill^ secretary of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association, Montreal. 3—30 466 ALFRED W. HADBILL. Q. Are you aa officer in one of the insurance companies as well ? A. No. Q. What is your business? A. Attending to the work of the association eolely. The same business as &£r. McLean does in Toronto. Q. Were you connected with any insurance company before that? A. I was ■secretary of the Insurance Exchange before, but I have not been intimately con- nected with any of the offices. Q. Have you any special statement to make with regard to your association. We have the constitution of the Canadian Fire Underwriters* Association, is that it (pointing to exhibit previously filed. — (Exhibit 43a,) ? A. Yes; that is the con- stitution. Q. We have spoken to other witnesses about keeping business from those who were doing business for non-tariff companies. Do you know in the first place that a resolution was carried on that subject ? A. Yes. Q. Was it repealed ? A. It was repealed. Q. Was it re-enacted in the Province of Quebec ? A. No ; it was not re- enacted in the Province of Quebec. Q. What resolution was there referring to it ? A. We have a resolution in the Province of Quebec that an agent for a company in our association cannot place business in a non-tariff company, a mutual company excepted; but not in a stock company. Q. This is at present in effect? A. It is in effect, but in the Province of Ontario, I believe, it is a dead letter. Q. I see here " 1 further pledge myself," &c. (Exhibit 43a, sec. 8) ? A. He must charge the tariff rates Q. He must bring them into the association for that ? A. He must charge the full rate. Q. He must charge the full rate. A company cannot make its own rate? A* I believe that reeolution has not been put into effect in the Province of Ontario. Q. They bind themselves not to do any business except for those who are mena- bers of this aspociation ? A. Except for mntual companies. Q. Then the other half of the resolution is that they will not do any business with any outside companies. That was re-enacted because that is their present binding constitution ? A. It has a very different effect. Q. This permits them to do business but they must charge the company's tariff? A. The association tariff. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Are you the secretary of the association in Quebec the same as Mx. McLean is in Ontario? A. Yes; in Montreal. Q . You were to hand in a statement of expenses ? A. Yes ; I expect that this will be very similar to what has been handed in (financial statement handed in), this is a statement for three years previously and also the expenses for the last year. (Exhibit 44a, b, and c.) Q. The expenses are about $5,478? (Exhibit 44a.) A. Which is one-third of one per cent., a mere infinitesimal amount. Q. You are not as luxurious as the Toronto association in the items for cham- pagne and other refreshments? A I might remark, with respect to these expenses, that if companies themselves undertook to do the same work, they would individu- ally have to bear much larger expenses in printing these tariffs. Each company would have to print this tariff while we undertake it for all companies, instead of leaving each individual company to do it. We have nothing to do with adjustment. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Do you include in that statement the salaries of inspectors? A. Everything. Q. How many have you? A. We have one at present. I inspect myself •oooasionally. Q. What was the amount of expenses for the Ontario association ? The Chairman. — Last year it was 17,293. rsPURANOK. 467 By Mr. Bain {WeniwortK) : Q. Have yoa mach competition in Qaebec with local mutoals ? A. Not to any extent. Q. They do not exist to the same extent as in Ontario for local purposes? A. There are one or two in the Eastern Townships*. Q. Are yoor agents restricted from taking risks for them ? A. They would be. By the Chairman: Q. When did the Qaeen City Company leave the association ? A. That is an Ontario company and my connection has been with Qaebec. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Have yoa had any companies withdraw in Qaebec? A. No; except sach companies as left the coantry. Q. Have any companies still doing basiness withdrawn ? A. No. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Do yoa know whether the Bfillers' and Manafactarers' is a stock company? A. It is an Ontario company. It has a local charter and does not come under my knowledge ? It is on a mutual basis somewhat. It has a guaranteed stock. Q. Were there any fines or any resolution imposing fines in your association? A. We have a by-law in the association that if an agent violates the rules a fine shall be imposed, but as a matter of fact a fine has never bsen imposed. The com- pany is liable for the fine or the dismissal ot the agent. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. As a matter of fact companies would look after that in their own interest ? A. You might look through the minatea and yoa will see the number of infractions. Q. You could deal with that when the applica' ion comes up? A. I have nothing to do with that, it belongs to the company. Q. Do you have any rule which imposes fines on companies? A.. No. Q. The only ease of imposing a fine in year association would be if a company issued a policy below tariff rates? A. You are speaking of prices by companies' agents. We have no such rule. By Mr. Quillet : Q. At the Toronto meeting was any question of imposing fines considered ? A. No ; it did not come up, Q. I see it was to come up before the meeting according to the minutes here ? A. I know there was some discussion about changes of tarifiEii, as you will see by the general minutes there. Q. Here is what I was referring to: " Farther correspondence was read from the Citizens' in relerence to their complaint the subject matter of item No. 1, 53, in the last minutes. The companies took strong objection to the inefficiency of the rales to protect a company who lost risks by adhering to tariff rates, and their inefficiency to deal with the agent or bit)ker placing the risk, and forcibly urged the necessity of the association taking such action as woald remedy the evil complained of and offering some suggestions in that direction for consideration at the annual meeting. After a lengthy discussion on the partioalar case which gave rise to the Citizens* grievance it was agreed that the company had just cause for complaint, and it was made a recommendation that the association at its approaching annual meeting do take into its serious consideration the necessity of maintaining the rules in the direction suggested by the Citizens' " ? A. That was a complaint more in reference to a broker than to a company. Q. You did not take any action ? A. We made some slight changes, but nothing important. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What was the offence ; taking risks below the tariff ? A It was partially that, but it was more in the way it was done. Q. Cutting into each other's business unfairly ? A. Yes ; you might call it that. Q. There are various ways of evading the tariff. Do you think any means are resorted to to evade the tariff by agents ? A. Are yoa speaking of loanaging agenta 3— 30^ 468 HUGH SCOTT. of companies or local agents ? I do not think the paid agents do, or the companies themselves; but companies have local agents all over the country of variois charac- ters and they make evasions. Q. Do they give gratuities ? A. I do not think so to any extent. Q. What is the nature of the business that a broker does for these companies ? A. He might not be specially attached to any office, but he will get the business and place it among half a dozan offices. There are only brokers in large cities like Mont- real and I do not think there are any in Toronto. He gets his bueiness and places it among large companies and looks after renewals. Q. He takes it at a general rate ? A. No. He takes at the tariff rate and gets his commission. Q. On this particular occasion did he take it below the tariff rate ? A. You are speaking of the Citizens' company. Yes ; he did. Q. That was the offence really ? A. Yes. Q. He had taken it below the tariff rate and the company that the Citizens* complained of accepted the application ? A . Yes. Q. Then, of course, the company were really the offenders ? A. It would appear so, but in that particular instance it would be hard to explain the whole circum- stances. When a broker is doing business, a company would naturally place some reliance in him. Q. But the first thing that is done when an application comes in is to see that the rates are according to t he tariff ? A. But we usually carry those rates in our head. Q. Yes ; but I can understand that there are 1,000 inducements to make a man take a smaller rate ? A. It is natural that companies would want business and it is equally natural that agents would want to do the same. Q. It would appear at all events that the company was aggrieved? A. Yes; I would say that directly the company had their attention drawu to this, they rectified the mistake. Q. By putting up the rate ? A. No ; by cancelling the risk. By Mr. Guillet . Q. If the companies do not cancel the risks the Underwriters' Association have no power to do so ? A. It is voluntary with the association entirely. The Committee adjourned. Housi OP Commons, Ottawa, 30th April, 1888. The Committee on Alleged Trade and Insurance Combinations met this morning^ Mr. Wallace, M.P., in the chair. HnaH Scott, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. Would you give your name, occupation and address? A. Hugh Scott, managing director of the Millers' and Manufacturers' and the Queen City Insurance Company, and ntanager and secretary ol the Hand in Hand Fire Insurance Exchange. Q. How many years have you been in this business ? A. '60 years, devoting my whole time to it. Q. Before we go into the subject of your objections, if you have any against the Fire Underwriters' AESOciation, we bad some witness here, one in particular at the last examination, who spoke of the moral hazaid. He did not seem to understand that there was any moral hazard except in the case of the incendiary who deliber- ately insured for the purpose of burning down his premises. Will you tell us what yon know about the moral hszard ? A. I think I can best answer your question by reading my instructions seventeen years ago to my agents which I think gives that from a Canadian standpoint. I think he was giving it to you from an English atandpoint. "You will guard against accepting proposals from persons of doubtful INSURANCE. 469 character and those for insurance of property in the occapation of disreputable tenants." (Exhibit 45o, rules.) " Other considerations guoh as the pecuniary embarrassment of the applicant and disposition to overvalue his property, risks from threat or probable designs on the part of enemies of the applicant and any other peculiar conditions which may commend themselves to you as worthy to influence you in accepting or declin- ing should command your scrutiny." These were the elements except in certain cases of hazard such as tanneries which are remote from water and mills where the water is dried up. These were oalled moral hazards. There may be many classes of incendiaries. There may bo for instance culpable carelessness. I do not think the incendiary, that the man who deliberately puts a torch to his mill, prevails to the same extent as we suppose. I think the chief class of incen liar ies are people who are careless and it becomes unprofitable to have such cases. These persons become indifferent to the care of their property, and such things are circumstances which we consider enter into the moral hazard. Q. Would you consider e moral hazard the case of a man who has his place mortgaged up to its value and would become indifferent as to what became of it? A. Certainly, that enters very largely into that question. In application for insurance my instructions were: "Applications for insurance on mortgaged property should be made by the mortgagor in order to avoid the possibility of a double insurance by the mortgagor and mortgagee on the same property." These are important questions on leasehold property. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Should be made by whom ? A. The mortgagor. We have had instances where both covered by insurance, and in one case (the law has been somewhat changed), they were in a position to both recover. Q. 1 thought there was a condition in the policy that they could not recover ? A. But when an insurance company takes your interest as mortgagee and insures you definitely as such, that is a different thing. There was a case occurred a good many years ago on a mill in Dandas. Q. In that case could the mortgagor recover ? A. In that case he did, owing to the peculiar circumstance that the company protected his interests. That insur- ance was made as mortgagee. By the Chairman: Q. Are you a member of the Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. Well, I am and I am uot. I do not know. They say " The Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association '* and I have no evidence that I am not a member. Owing to a certain rule, however, that they have, they pronounced us out of the Toronto Board. Q. Were you a member ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And your company ? A. Yes ; the Queen City was from the very inception of it. Q. Did you resign ? A. No, sir ; I did not resign. Q* Did your company withdraw ? A. No ; we did not. They, so to speak, ex- pelled us. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Is that from the Toronto Board? A. Yes; it is a sort of mixed position, and if you will permit me By the Chairman : Q. We w€ re just asking you questions that would lead up to this. Have you any grievance against this association ? A. Yes. Q. To you individually and the public interest as well ? A. I think that their actions at times have been of a character not in harmony with the association as it was originally formed. Q. flow does it affect the public ? You say it has not been to you as a manager of an insurance company ? A. I think that they have adopted rales for the purpose of persecuting us. 4*70 HUGH SCOTT. Q. Persecating yoa ? A. The association drifted into an association for that purpose. Q How does their association affect the public interest? A. At the time, or since then, I was also manager of the National Insurance Company of Ireland. I ought to state that I was also senior in the firm of Scott & Bolt for the National In- surance Company of Ireland. Q. Perhaps you had better give us in consecutive order the state of affairs ? A. Perhaps if I could read a statement which I made to the National Insurance Com- piny of Ireland. I will commence by reading an extract from a letter written to Mr. Englbach, manager of the National Ap&urance Company of Ireland dated Toronto, 23rd February, 1886 :— (Exhibit 45aJ.) " Notwithstanding what I stated to you in my last hurried scrawl from Kings- ton, I must tfflict you with tbe history of the origin of the 'Millers' and Manufacturers' so that you may clearly understand the pf Bition of affairs." " We (the association) framed a tiriff m October, 1883, in which, on flour mills that had been written at one and one-half per cent, we advanced it two per cent., and on those which had been written at two per cent, and two and one quarter per cent, we advanced to two and three quarter per cent. At a meeting of the associa- tion held in Montreal in September, 1884, which virtually closed on a Friday evening^ after which most of the western members left for home, presuming that at the Satur- day meeting the unfinished business only would be dealt with. This, however, did Dot prove to be the case as, at the Saturday meeting, flour mill rating was again taken up, and in the face of remonstrances from Mr. Wood, of the Etna, and Mr. Wickins, of the Commercial Union, the only western representatives present, another increase of three quarter per cent was added to all mill and their storehouse rates." (Exhibit 45ai.) Q. That is flour mills alone ? A. Yes ; and their storehouses. Q. They had added 50 per cent, before this ? A. Scarcely that (witness con- tinued reading) *' thus making two jumps within one year without any regard what- ever to the moral hazard or the internal or external equipments tor preventing fires. Old *• fire traps " and slovenly managed mills as well as those most carefully conducted were all placed on the same basis and forced to pay tbe same rates. It was but natural that tuch action should create considerable fieeling when the policies on the better class of mills became renewable, and I am sorry to say the friction caused thereby is not confined to millowters, but has extended to the other manufacturers in this province. Mr. Howland's repeated assurance of the organizations determined on, in consequence of what was conbideied unjust action, I doubted until I could no longer do so, and, therefore, felt I was best serving all interests by taking a position through which I might bring about a bettor feeling and the relation that should exist between supply and demand." (Exhibit 45aJ.) Witness— Just at this juncture, Mr. Howland waited on me and asked me if I did not tbink a great injustice had been done to the mill interest. The reason I men- tion Mr. Howland is because he was president of the Millers' Association Insurance Company. (Continued reading.) " You know as I do that it is the insured that should and do pay the losses and expenses, and also in addition thereto, a fair compensation for tbe hazard assumed in a well managed company. To my mind it was, therefore, folly to irritate and create such bad feeling \iith the source from which we derive our very existence. It is, however, the chronic characteristic of many of our eastern members to do so whenever they mount a hobby. We have also created a serious competition on the part of American companies. When in New York, last summer, I saw a whole page covered with the names of applicants for insurance, in tums ranging from $27,000 to $40,000 each, to the Mutual Fire Insurance Company, 155 Broadway, New York, from Hamilton, Toronto, Kingston and Montreal. I enclose one of Secretary Arm- Btrong's letters, and send you by this mail a copy of their last annual report. See also enclosed letters from Montreal correspondent of the Mail. Harbor commis- INSURANCE. 471^ sioners there have placed the whole of their property with American companies." (Bxbibit 45a| ) Witness — In this connection I may Ptate that the representative of the Har- bor Commissioners was also president of the Eoyal Insurance Company, and yet they I'laced their properly with American companies. (Continued reading.) *' Last week the Merriton Cotton Mills Company placed $100,000 of their risk in American companies, 810,000 of which was covered la^-t year under your National Policy, 201842; as a grtat personal favor we were able to retain $5,0» 0, covered now by your policy. All our policies on the Eiordan Paper Mills (102411, $5,0U0) were^ cancelled last month, and the whole placed with our Yankee cousins. I could fill a letter citing similar cases that have been or are about being taken to the other side. I had, and still have, strong hopes that the Millers' and Manufacturers' would, in a measure, arrest this exodus of business from our midst. What exercises me most over this matter ic, the fact, that it is the very best class of risks of their kind that we are losing in this way. Those of a * singed cat ' character will notbe taken by them, and are, therefore, left for us to squabble over, and such will continue to be the oa^e while we are sleeping over a promise made last March that equitable schedule rating would at once be adopted." (Exhibit 45aJ) Q. Who is Mr. Englbach that yon are writing to ? A. Manager of the National Insurance Company of Ireland. Q. When you refer to these American companies do you mean what you call underground insurance, or American companies who have their offices in Canada ? A. You can scarcely call it underground insurance, for when I was in Mr. Arm- strong's office there was a gentleman there who was interested in these piper works, and who was applying for insurance. They asked him to send on and have his property inspecied. Q. Are those companies who have no office in Canada not complying with any law? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Companies not having any legal standing in Canada ? A. You must not mix the two. Q. What class of companies are these ? A. You take the New England com- panies that are covering lar^e paper mills and large woollen manufacturing com- panies, they are the very ones I am referring to. Q. Do they put up a deposit ? A. No, ii is not necessary. Q. Have they agents here ? A. No; no agents at all. There may be another class called underground soliciting business here. Q. What is meant by underground insurance is when companies come into Canada and do business without submitting to the Canadian law or not having to put up a deposit, or being recognized in any way in our inspection or courts ? A. Just eo. Q. The truth is you take the risk in an American mutual comj>any and of going over there and prosecuting your claim in the American courts? A. Just so. Q. In saying underground ii-surance there is no insinuation that they are not first-class companies ? A. That is a diflferent thing. The underground are com- panies who solicit you for business in an underground way. These companies, how- ever, do not act in that way. You go to them and it would be interfering with the individual rights to prevent it. Q. Are there any companies that are doing in the way you speak of ? A. Not just now. There are we^tern mutuals that come in, but they claim that they have in most instances been solicited. They send circulars, and owners of factories asked them to come and make these inspectioi s, and in that way they are not infringing the law. But if one of their agents came in to solicit business he would be exposed in the Province of Ontario to a very serious fine. Q. There are not any in Ontario doing that class of business ? A. Not to any extent. Q. Where a good business man makes application there are then cases of that tind y A. Yes ; we are following out in our companies precisely their lines. 472 HUGH 800TT. By the Chairman : Q. Bat 80 far as the tariff of the Fire Underwriters' Assooiation is concerned joa 8ay these companies are taking the beat basiness? A. Tes. Q. For the reason that they charge as much for the safe ones as the poor ones ? A. \e8; there was no discrimination until they promised to give ihis schedule rating, and in conBequence of that promise we went in, but they broke faith with us and in consequence of that we went out. By Mr. Quillet : Q. Did you say that the applications are made personally to these companies or by letter ? A. Sometimes personally. In the case I spoke of I met a gentleman in Mr. Armetrorg's oflBce applying for insurance and asking if he could not take the whole of his paper mill. Q. Who id Mr. Armstrong ? A. The secretary of the New York Mutual Fire Insurance Company that I refer to in this letter. By .the f^hnmian : Q. Wbero is his office ? A. 155 Broadway, New York. By Mr Quillet : Q. The applications are made personally as well as by letter ? A. Yes, certainly. That exterds to a visit to the city. They are constantly doing it by letter. By the Chairman : Q. And he was asked to send their man on to inspect the risk? A. les. That has been the outcome of these arbitrary ratings. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Is your company a mutual company ? A. Yes, all my companies are mutual with the exception of the Queen City, and that company has been established since 1871. By Ihe Chairman: Q. The Queen City is not a mutual ? A. No, sir ; it is a stock company, but wo pay a divideud to our policy-holders. Q. Well, you may proceed with your statement, Mr. Scott? A. Well, prior to 1883 when this Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association was formed, we had local boards in Toronto, Hamilton and London. Q. Prior to what'year? A. Prior to 1883, the time of the formation of the XJanadian Fire Underwriters' Aseociation. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q. What do you moan by local boards, Mr. Scott? A Some companies have local boards composed of their local agents, for framing tariffs and issuing rates. Q. S ) as to act in concert ? A. Yes, to act in concert. By the Chairman : Q. Were you present when the secretary of the Western Insurance Company gave his evideuce ? A. No. Q. I am sorry. Mr. Boomer stated distinctly that there was no tariff fixed by a <5ompany or any association of companies previous to the Fire Underwriters' Associa- tion of i88;^? A. Ob. well, there is no question about that. I can show you some of the minutes. The Toronto Board has existed since 1872 or 1873. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. And I suppose any company you are cognizant of previous to that time had a tariff tor its own guidance? A. Yes, sir, thire is my tariff. (Exhibit 45o — 8oale of Kates. ) By ihe Chairman : Q. And every company that you knew of, had they a tariff for their agents and their business ? A. Oh, yes ; they had tariffs. In that letter I referred there to those exorbitant ratts, the exorbitant jump that was made on those mills. Q. Tho first raise was about forty per cent, on the premiums, and the next three-fourths of one per cent, on the risk? A. Three-fourths of one per cent, on everything, a cast-iron advance of three-fourths of one per cent. INSUftANCS. 473 Q. Twenty per cent, more ? A. Yes, fully. That caused such a feeling that at a meetina: of muiuals in Toronto, held on the 20th March, 18a5, a resolution was passed and a prospectus was issued. Q. What was that? A. The prospectus and resolution of the Mutual F5re Insuiauce Company (Exhibit 45a) was the outcome of a meeting of millers held in Toronto on Friday, the 20th March, 1885. I will read you what it says: — " PKOSPECTUS. " MUTUAL FIR8 INSUBANCB COMPANY. "The committee appointed to carry out the following resolution, adopted at the meeting of millers held in the Board ot Trade Rooms, Toronto, on Friday, 20th March, 1885, viz. : — " Moved by Mr. D. Plewes, Brantford, seconded by Mr. A. Watts, Brantford ; " Heeolveo, that it is expedient to establish a ^fillers' and Manufacturers' Insur- ance Company under the Acts of the Province of Ontario regarnng Mutual Insur- ance Companies, which provide lor a stock capital ; and that Messrs. Whitelaw, Paris; H. N. Baird, Toronto ; D. Plewes, Brantford ; M. McLaughlao, Toronto; J. D. Baunders, London; W. H. Howland, Toronto; S. Neelon, St. CaLharioes; James Goldie, Gaelpb; E. W. B. Snider, Waterloo; and A. Watte, Brantford, ba a commit- tee to carry the above resolution into effect. — Carried. "Have concluded to do so on the following basis : — *' To raise a subscribed capital of at least $250,000, on which ten per cent, will be called up ($25,000). On this paid up capital, it is proposed to pay an annaai dividend of ten per oenU As the earning powers of this sum will noo be less than 8LZ per cent., it will at once be seen the additiontil four per cent, will be a very small tax on the revenue of the company, compared to the security it will give and the confidence it will inspire. " The rates of premium it is proposed to charge will be a cash payment one- quarter (:^5 per cent.) less than the now exacted rates, and an undertaking to be given for a similar sum. It is expected this cash premium will be largely in excess of the losses, and the surplus, after providing a rebcrve fund, will be apportioned among the insurers, and allowed as a rebate or dividend off the cash premium pay- able at the end ot each year on the renewal of the policy, thus giving ins^urance at cost. " A local company having a limited number of risks is obliged to write small lines aud hence afford only partial protection to its members, while one with a capi- tal and an ample cash reserve fund, covering a large extent of territory, will be able to give, conjointly with existing mutual companies, by way of re-insuianco or other- wise, all the protection required at much less cost than the rates now exacted. " It is not the intention to employ local agents, but have all the risks examined by competent inspectors who will have no interest in recommending undesirable hazards. '* The first required step towards organizing is to secure the promise of a given amount of insurance, and you are therefore requested to fill up the enclosed form, stating what sum you will insure with the company. " If it is your desire to become a stockholder, we have to ask you to also fill ap in the enclosed form the sum you are willing to subscribe for of the contemplated capital. " As it is desirable the company should be established as soon as possible, aa early reply is requested, addressed to W. H. Howland, Toronto. « JAMES GOLDIE, Chairman. ** Toronto, 27th March, 1885. " P. S. Should you desire any further details of the scheme, kindly communicate with W. H. Howland, Toronto, who will be happy to furni&h you with the lullesfe particulars. " N. B. — The payment of the ten per cent to be called up on the subscribed. m IJ to 2J per cent. Q. That does not bear upon the evidence before the committee ? A. That was 1>efore this committee when they framed this rule striking straight at that company and ipyeelf. Tou eee it is a purely mutual company. There was no intention to do saay other business. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. "What ws 8 the rule that induced you to form this association? A. The Jump of three quarter per cent. By the Chairman : Q. They increased about 40 percent, on the premiums and then added f per cent. ontheriuks? A. Before passing away from that, I want to allude to the fact that "tte rule of the association was that we would not allow representatives of the tariff offices to represent non-tariff oflSces, purely mutual companies excepted. Q, When were these resolutions passed that you were referring to ? A. 13th October, 1885 Q. After your company had gone into operation ? A. Yes. They held the meet- ing in Ottawa. It was the annual meeting and was held in Ottawa because small pox prevailed in Montreal to a great extent. I will read from the report of the meet- ing : (Exhibit, 4" 6— Sec. 41.) ** Agents representing Mutual or other Non-Tariff Companies. " The committee beg to report that after full consideration of the existing rul© l>earing on joint agencies, it is the opinion of the committee that they are sufficiently clear to enable the association to deal with the case of Toronto, which has been brought under its notice, but that in order to avoid similar questions in future, it be lesolved that no officer holding connection with a non-tariff office, or acting as agent or sub-agent for a non-tariff office, shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff ofiSce, whether as general agent, sub-agent, or in any capacity whatever." Q. Were you present at that meeting ? A. No. Q. Are you still a member of the association ? A. Well, I would like to know •where 1 am. When this resolution was adopted I was occupying the position of agent of the English company. It was a regular conspiracy to decapitate me. When the matter came up, my partner, Mr. Boult, withdrew. If I was having any conflict for the trust I was representing, his National of Ireland, he should have remained there and attacked me surely, or, on the other hand, have remained to defend me, because I find when this resolution was adopted he was present, and it wae carried unanimously. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Were you connected with the association at the previous time when the rule was adopted respecting the restrictions to be imposed upon agents for non tariff companies ? A. Mutual companies ? Q. Yes; mutual companies. What date was that? A. When they brought this in, that is when they introduced it, it was the 13th October. Q. Was it not the 15lh of October, 1885 ? A. Yes; the meeting commenced on tlie 13th and they carried it over to the 15th. (Exhibit 456.) Q. At any early htage of this association in October, 1883, when they adopted the resolution forbidding their agents to act for non-tariff mutual companies? A. 1^0. That is when they did it. Prior to that they did not affect the mutual companies, parely mutual companies being excepted. Q. It was in consequence of your company that this resolution was introdaoed ? A. It is quite possible that that was the case in Toronto. Thoy would not mentioa my name. INSURANCE. 475- By the Chairman : Q. Was that resolution repealed ? A. I will jast say that in December I had a strong feeling. I always voted in favor of the business of insurance being put upon an equitable basis, of seeing an association purely and simply for that purpose, because it is neither in the interest of the insured or the insurer, particularly that of the insurer, that it should be taken at a loss, because all insurance is mutual — you can call it by whatever name you choose, stock or mutual, but it is the insured that pay the loss and expenses. Capital is no factor in the matter of insurance. It is only the bank which you can fall back upon to meet a sudden contingency and to recoup yourself again or go to the wall. In consequence ot this there was a meeting held in Toronto in December, ard Mr. Howland and I were present. Q. In December. 1885? (Exhibit 45c.) A. Yes, December, 1885. "Mr.W. H. Howland addressed the meeting at some length in explanation of the order and mode of insuring adopted by the Millers' and Manufacturers' Mutual, with which h© and Mr. Hugh Scott were connected. Messrs. Smith, Tatley and Magurn spoke in reply, after which Messrs. Howland and Scott withdrew." On the 8th December it was continued to the next meeting. " Mr. Howland addressed the meeting for some time, defending the position taken by him in the formation of the Millers' and Manu- facturers' Mutual ; that he, and not Mr. Scott, was responsible for the organization of that company." Q. Does that appear ? A. We went into the association on the assurance that these things were to be remedied, and that the industries of the country were not to be assessed exorbitantly, which we felt had been done. They gave us this assurance that the schedule rating which they referred to in that letter, which was written in February ; these proceedings were taken in December. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. And you say you went into the association. Were you one of the original promoters of the Fire Underwriters' Association when it was first organized, or did you become a member subsequently ? A. No; I came in at the time. I will ex- plain that when I come to touch on the Toronto Board. By the Chairman : Q. You joined at the beginning ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Then you were a member at the time this diflSculty occurred in 1885, when the Millers' and Manufacturers' Assoc'ation was formed. You were a member up to that time ? A. Yes ; until the Millers' and Manufacturers' went in. Mr. Goldie and Mr. McCulloch did not think we could work in harmony with them. Mr. Howland and myself thought differently. We thought the schedule rating would bring it down to a fair basis. Then the nexf meeting was held on the 30th March. It depends upon whose ox was gored as to what rules they adopted, because Mr. Taylor of the Northern and Caledonia, I think he represented, came up to Toronto at this meeting and they rescinded this obnoxious part, leaving it as it was originally cast* (Exhibit 45ined. Mr. Bain said it was not clear to his mind yet whether the combination restored that clause in their regulations or not. He read the clauses referred to. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q. It is a simple question, have they or have they not ? A. Here is the Toronto Board I am trying to explain that the Toronto Board is an arm of the main associa- tion. INSURANCE. 4*t*l The Chairman — That is not answering Mr. Bain's question. We understand tho connection between the two. By Mr. Bain ( WenUvorth) : Q. Have ihey or have they not? Are you aware? A. I am going to show you how the minutes of the Toronto Board restored it. They are the same com* panies. They are part and parcel of the same companies. Q. Have the Underwriters' Association restored it, or haven't they ? A. The Toronto Board have restored it (Exhibit 45/ — Sec. 33 re " non-tariff company " ) but they are the same persons. They haven't restored it, bat they have adopted it in tho Toronto Board after rescinding it in the association. Q. The Toronto Board have again passed that resolution. Is the effect of that that it is in operation everywhere age in ? A. No, sir. In operation in Toronto. Q. It is in operation in Toronto? A. It is in operation in Toronto. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Is the Toronto Board an association in the Province of Ontario ? A. No sir, in Toronto. I tried to explain that. By Mr. Bain (Weniworth): Q. Perhaps I did not comprehend you before, but I think I have got it. Tho resolution has been again passed by Toronto Board, and is in force in Toronto but not elsewhere ? A. Yes ; but not elsewhere. The Chairman. — Then there is another question which just follows. If it is in force in Toronto, the Toronto company that has an agent in the county of Went- worth or some place outside of Toronto, does it prevent that agent of the Toronto company from accepting non-tariff and tariff business . Mr. Bain. — No ; I understand by this that it does not apply anywhere outside of Toronto. Before it would be applicable all over the province it would have to h& adopted by the board whose minutes we have here, the Canadian Fire Underwriters* Association. This is under the jurisdiction of the Fire Underwriters' Association for the Province. Mr. Scott. — Yes. Mr. Bain. — Of which the Toronto Board is a branch ? Mr. Scott. — Yes. By the Chairman : Q. There is the Montreal Branch and the Toronto Branch forming one associa^ tion. The Toronto Branch as I understood it had jurisdiction in Ontario while tho Montreal Branch had jurisdiction in Quebec. Mr. Bain. — Exactly, and the Toronto Board is again underneath the Under- writers' Association, especially for the city of Toronto, and they passed resolution» in the Board which were regulations lor Toronto. Witness — Yes. The Chairman— I did not hear anything before of the Toronto Board as distinct from Ontario. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I would like to ask whether companies whose headquarters are in Toronto and have branches elsewhere in Ontario whether their agent would be under this rule ? A. No, sir. Tnis is not a portion of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' As- sociation. Q. It does not matter where the headquarters of the company are as long as where the agent is ? A. Not at all. By the Chairman : Q. Bead that resolution ? A. It is an annual meeting held on the 19th January. " Agenda No. 10. Annual meeting re agents representing non-tariff companies. Besolution on this subject adopted at the annual meeting was inadvertently omitted from the minutes and is as follows : That hereafter no offiaer nor person holding official connection with a non-tariff company, or acting as agent or sub-agent for a non-tariff office, shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff office or receive or -473 HUGH SCOTT. place business or receive commission with or from a member of this Board, whether as general agent, subaojent or in any capacity whatever." (Exhibit 456— Sec. 41.) Q. That was passed by the Toronto Board ? A. By the Toronto Board. Q. It gaides the Toronto men ? A. It guides the Toronto men. Q. It would guide them all over the Province ? A. Oh, it does not. That power is relegated to the Toronto Board by the parent association. They are com- posed of the same persons. Mr. FiSHBR — A good many rings within rings. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q, I suppose Toronto and Hamilton are allowed certain powers within their own association? A. Exactly, under the control of the Canadian Association. Q. The power underneath them adopts it ? A. Yes. By Mr. Quillet : Q. I understand there is a Toronto branch of the Underwriters' Association and a Toronto Board under that branch ? A. No, sir. Q. An Ontario branch and a Toronto Board? A. They came in both. The branches are for convenience of legislation. Q. The men who constitute or form the Ontario branch are not the same men who form the Toronto Board? A. Certainly. There is no member of the Toronto Board who is not a member of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association. Q. Are the members of the Ontario Association and the members of the Toronto Board one and the same men? A. With one exception. Yes; they are one and the same men, all of them. They are the same body of men. Q. Still they have two sets of minutes? A. Yes. Q. They are two distinct organizations, practically ? A. Yes. By Mr. Fisher: Q. Inihe Canadian Fire Underwriters' Apsociation their limits are not only I there in Toronto but all over the country ? A. Yes. Q. The Toronto men are only a portion of the Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. Yes, they are ; but these powers are relegated to them by the parent institution. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There is a Hamilton B^ard ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether they adopted that rule or not?" A. No; I do not think that they ever did. Q Do you know whether the London Board did? A. No ; 1 don't think it. Q. We had a London gentleman here who said it was aimed at him. He thought he was the target, and you think you are ? A. I think he must have referred to the general Fire Underwriters' Association. Q. That is what I am referring to — the original resolution ? A. You see they pointed to the case in Toronto. That is quite clear. Here is where they restored it in Toronto. The Toronto Board restored it, a board which is virtually part and parcel of the same organization . By the Chairman : Q, We understand that part clearly — proceed ? A. Then you asked me what my position is owing to discriminations. For instance, take the matter of churches and colleges and educational institutions. It has been offered at 45 and 50 cents in the city ot Montreal, and outside and in the city of Toronto they compel the agents there to exact one per cent. Q. Where? A. In Toronto. Q. In the city of Toronto? A. In the city of Toronto. Q. It is down to 45 and 60 cents in Montreal ? A. Yes. Take the hospital there. They exact only 60 cents in Montreal and they compel the hospital at Toronto to pay one per cent , which we consider a very unfair discrimination. Q. Give us a parallel case of 45 cents in Montreal and one per cent, in Toronto ? A. The Jesuit church in Montreal I know to be insured for 45 cents and none of oar ^harohes are permitted to bo rated at less than one per cent. INSURANOS. 4^ By Mr. Fisher : Q. Is that owing to the resolution of ihe Fire Underwriters' Association or ikei resolution of the Toronto Board ? A. The Toronto Board. They are one and the» same people. Q. There are two different sections? A. Yes; the same heads to both. The Chaibman — He says they are the same individuals with the exception or one person. Mr. FisHKR— Yes; the Pre Underwriters' Association extends outside of To- ronto. There may be certain individuals who belong to the Toronto Board, bat the Fire Underwriters' Association extends all over the Province. If it was a resolution of the Fire Underwriters' Association it would extend to the whole Province, wberd> as what Mr. Scott says it only belongs to Toronto. WiTNE-8 — That is discrimination, certainly. By the Chairman : Q Even the printed tariff that Mr. McLean showed us, that was binding all over the Province of Ontario? A. No, sir; I will give you an instance that took place with the college at Pickering. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. 1 understand you to say where there are two risks under similar conditions,, one in Toronto and one in Montreal, they have discriminated against Toronto and charge higher rates ? A. Yes. Q. Does that apply to any other city in Ontario ? A. Yes. Q. Toronto rates are especially high ? A. Yes. Q. Then the tariff of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Asiociation, as adopte(^ does not apply in all cases where the risks arealike ? A. No, sir, Q You mean to say distinctly that they charge special rates in the city of Toronto? A. Yes. Q. How do they reconcile the action of the Toronto Board with the general association that forbid any company to make any discrimination in the rate ? A. That is what no person can explain. The Chairman — Montreal and Toronto are in class " A " and they must be tho same. The rates must be the same How do you explain the fact that they chargo a 45 cent rate in Montreal and a dollar in Toronto ? They are both in class "A"? A. That is the contention that we have been fighting for for a long time. By Mr. Bain ( WenitoTrth) : Q. Their minutes indicate that ? A. We left the association in 1885. This wa» the letter (^ Exhibit 46 g) addressed to Mr, McLean in 18S5 : " The following letter irom Mesgrs. Scott & Waimsiey was read : — " Toronto, 20th July, 1885. " Robert MoLean, Esq., " Secretary Toronto Board of Fire Underwriters, Toronto. " Dear Sib, — The following is an extract from the minutes of a directors* meet- ing of the Queen City Fire Insurance Company held this Monday, 20th July, 1885 : — " Ordered, That this Board cannot consistently eustain a principle that sanctions, the insurance of sacred edifices, &e , &c., in the Province of Ontario, which are situated beyond the city limits at a rate of only thirty -fiv^e cents (i5) per annum, and compels them to exact fifty cents (50) for similar hazards within range of the fire brigade protection in this city ; this company must therefore withdraw from the Toronto Board of Fire Underwriters, while such an anomaly continues to exist, A copy of this order as a notice of withdrawal to be sent to the said Board of Under- writers. " Yours faithfully, "SCOTT & WALMSLBY, ^^ManagersJ' We had promises that this would be remedied. Mr. Bain (Wentworth), — They promised to place you on equal terms. 480 HUGH SOOTT. By Mr. Fisher : Q. This does not state that the charge is $1. They are 45 cents or 50 cents? A. Outside, sir. Q. They are more in the city than outside the city ? A, Yes, sir. Take the college at Pickering. That is charged only f per cent, because it is outside the city limits and Wyciiffe college pays 1 per cent., one is wholly without protection and Wycliffe college is surrounded by a fire brigade. Q. They may be different classes of risks ? A. Wyclifle college is completely isolated in the Queen's Park. Q Tell us why the Toronto rates are higher than the general rate. What i» the tariff that they have filed here. It would, be most satisfactory to turn it up from that, you know. A. I don't see anything about hospitals here. They have noth- ing here for dwellings. They have not given dwelling house tariff rate. By Mr. Bain (^Wentworth) : Q. Your complaint is that jou require to charge 50 cents where in other places they charge 35 ? A. That is outside of Toronto. Q. 1 think you paid you were required to charge $1 ? A. Fifty cents for one year would be 1 per cent, for three years. Q. What wonld you take it under their rates for three years ? A. I am merely stating a fact given me by an inspector of one of their companies, that a church in Montreal was taken for 45 cents for three years. Q. That was btated to you by one of their inspectors ? A. Yes ; of the Fire Insurance Association. Q Their required rate here is 35 cents per annum ? A. That is outside of Ontario. Q. What is it in Quebec ? A. 1 do not know, I am speaking of Ontario exclu- sively. Q. Was it in consequence of that you wrote this letter ? A. In consequence of oor knowledge. By Mr. Fisher : Q. I see in the tariff book the following : — " Toronto, 16th April, 1888. " The following rates come into effect on and after the Ist of May next on all three years' risks situated in Ontario, east of the counties of York and Simcoe : Academies, churches, day schools, colleges, banku, insurance offices, court houses, charitable institutions, drill sheds not used for other purpose^, hospitals, houses of refuge, nunneries ard their contents." I was going to say that I see Toronto is not given in the list of cities here at all. There is a classification ot places, and we have Guelph, Hamilton, London and St. Catharines, but Toronto is left out ? A. I might mention to you that when the Board was not working harmoniously, then they put them in clats '' A," and thus discrimination has been made against Toronto. They charge 1 per cent, there for three years, and outside 70 cents and 15. Q. I understand you to say that this Toronto Board is under the conti*ol of the Ontario Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. They gave them these powers. For instance, when ihe London Board were not working harmoniously they legislated them out of existence and put them under class "A." They could do that with the Toronto Board to-morrow. Q. But the Toronto Board has independent powers ? A. So long as the parent association lets them. Q. Then they do let them ? A. Yes ; just now. Q. This appears to be a upecial creation for Toronto? A. For Toronto? For the auBOciation. Q. Do yovL know whether there is any such arrangement in Montreal as there Is in Toronto? A. I am not aware. At the meetinc^ ot the Toronto Board, hold im January, 1887, they adopted rule 20, as follows:— (Exhibit 46/",— Seo. 20.; INSURANCE. 481 " DXPOSIT aUAB VNTXK« " That a gaarantee deposit shall be made by each company with the secretary of the Toronto Board of $50, as a guarantee of, and to secure the paymentof any fines that may be imposed under the rules — any fines deducted from this deposit to be immediately reinstated by the company. This deposit shall be made on or before the 15th day of February, and the other regulations shall come into force on the Ist day of March next. Should ik be shown to the satisfaction of the Toronto Board, by a two-thirds vote of the members present at any regular meeting — the usual notice through board's printed minutes of the previous meeting having been given — that any of the officials or employes, or a company — a member of this board — has violated any of the rules or regulations, the board shall impose a fine on such person or persons so violating as follows, namely : — Twenty-five per cent, of the correct premium involved in the transaction, if it be a question of tariff, or commis- sion, or consideration violation ; and in other cases, a direct fine of S5 for the first offence and $10 for each subsequent offence by the same party or parties (but in no case shall the fine be less than $5) ; and the report of the s,|ime, with the names of the oftenders and the amount of fine to be conspicuously printed in the minutes of the Toronto Board of that date." (Also Exhibit 45p — Sec. 58.) By Mr. Bain (WentwortK) : Q. This is the decision of the Toronto Boftrd ? A. Yea ; of the Toronto Board. By the Chairman : Q. Would you kindly tell us who the chairman and secretary of the Toronto Board are? A. Robert McLean is secretary and I think Mr. Alfred Smith is vice- president, and Mr. Henderson was president last year. Q. They have the same machinery as the others ? A. Yes; jast the same. Q. Were you fioed ? A. No; because I did not violate any rule. 1 was trying to live up to the tariff, but trying to get them to modify it and make it just. It was a pretty hard fight, however, for one company to do that. I remained in the Board and tried to do that. 1 induced the Toronto hospital trustees to spend something like $1,000 or $1,100 to protect their building from fire, and after doing so in the full ex- pectation that it would be taken into account, it was brought up and voted down. That put me in a very awkward position, and if they cannot get it at a fair rate they will carry it to the other side. They are not anxious now. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You have been in connection with this association while a member of the Toronto Board ? A. Yes ; up to that time and from the beginning. Q. Was it common wiih that Board to occasionally fine members when they transgressed, or was this the first occasion ? A. They have fined them. By the Chairman : Q. Were fines recorded on the minutes ? A. Yes ; there was one I coald give you a record of. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q, Then it was the custom of the Toronto Board, while you were a member of it, to impose fines on their members ? A. I only, as a fact, know of ooe fine being^ imposed. Here is a record of the meeting (Exhibit 4dA.) : " Mr. McGurn's notice of motion re Mr. Pringle — letters were read from T. M. Fringle and Mr. P. A. Ball relative to the above, in the former of which was enclosed $50, payment in full of fine imposed upon Mr. Pringle, the 5th day of June last, in consideration of which Mr. McGurn asked permission of the Board to withdraw the notice of motion which had been given, and moved in its stead : — " That Mr. T. M. Pringle having now eomplied with the rules of the Board, thfr secretary be directed to communicate that fact to the manager of the London and Lancashire Fire Insurance Company ; also, that it be printed in the minutes. Car- ried." Q. He was suspended then until he paid his fine ? A. No ; he was not actually fiBspended, although it sounds like it. 3—31 482 HUGH SCOTS. Q. You were present at the meeting f A. No ; I must have been present when it was discussed, but this was done in conseqacnce of allowing commissions, whidi was a violation of the rules of the Board. Q. How allowing commissions ? A. Well, allowing commissions to the insured for the sake of securing business. Q. Dividing up his own commission ? A. Yes. Q. That was practically giving to the insured a«iower rate ? A. Yes; giving away his salary to secure the business. Q. It was like this, he divided his own commission ? A. Yes. Q. What process did you pursue ? A. A committee would be appointed to «zamine into it. By the Chairman : Q. Did he divide his own commission ? A. He must have attempted it. Q. Did he divide his commission though ? A. It would be hard to tell how it was done. It would depend on the working of the company for which he was doing business. In some casea^here they allow a commission they allow an extra com- mission to the agent. For instance, if the agent sends down a voucher showing that he has paid out a portion of his commission he is allowed an extra commission. Ho might also give the whole of his commission away. By Mr. Bain {Wentworth) : Q . But if he came back to the company and said he had to make a concession to get this business ? A. Then the company would be responsible. Q. Otherwise it does not appear in that case to have been the charge, because I understand you to say that it was dividing his commission or taking half of it ? A. I remember the circumstances suflBLoiently clear to know that a rebate was allowed in this case. Q. That was an offence in the eyes of the association ? A. Yes. Q. Did these fines frequently oocur ? A. This is the only case that I remem- ber of. Q. Did you while you were a member of this Board have investigations of this kind? A. No; what I suggested I think was adopted. There were frequently in- -vestigations held but I do not know that any of the charges were brought home so that a fine oould be exacted except in this particular case. Q. How were they conducteid ? A. Generally a committee was named. Q. Did they administer a declaration? A. At one time they did but not a -statutory declaration. We rescinded that. Q . About what time was that in operation ? A. I think it was about this very time. This was in 1884 and I think it was rescinded some time in 1885. Q, It was not found to work well in practice ? A. Persons objected to take th* affirmation although it was the simplest way of getting at the facts. TSien I re- ceived a letter from Mr. MoLean. By the Chairman : Q, What was that payment ? A. For the purpose of fines that might be imposed. The company had to deposit that and keep it good. You had to make the deposit >so that the fine might be enforced. Q, They take it from the company's guarantee 7 A. Yes; Q. You acted in good faith ? A. Yes ; aikd that cheque came back to me in thii lorm. Q. Then yon eonsidered yourself a year ago a full fiedged member of the association 7 A. Yes ; and the cheque eame back accompanied by this letter : — " Dkar Sirs,— I am instraoted by the Toronto Board of Trade to see that al •ompanies comply with the rule adopted at the last annual meeting re agents of non- tariff offices which is as follows, tiz. : — " < That hereafter no officers, nor persons holding ofBoial oonneotion with a nomr tariff oompany or acting at «g«nt, or sab agent, for a non-tariff offio«, shall be eligible IN8IJRANCI. 4fll to represent, or act for a tariff office, mr receive or place business, or receive commis- sion with or from a member of this Board, whether a general agent, sab-agent or in Any other capacity whatever.' " As you represent non^tariflf offices, the Qaeen City cannot continue'as a mem- 'ber of the Toronto Board and in consequence I am not permitted to send yon as formerly the official ratings or other papers connected with the business of insurance. I therefore enclose the deposit guarantee cheque which you sent me on the 16th ultimo. " Were your non-tariff companies to join the Board as the terms laid down in the minutes of the Toronto Branch of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association of the 8th December, 1885, and in accordance with which the Millers' and Manufacturera' Insurance Company joined the association, the rule above referred to would not require the withdrawal of the Queen City from the Board. " I need scarcely add that I very much regret that the companies you represent are outside of an association in the formation of which your Mr. Scott took so active and lively an interest and which has done so much in placing the business of insur- ance on a sound basis, by raUng risks on their merits, reference being had to the means possessed by each city and town for preventing and extinguishing fires. " I am, dear sirs, yours truly, » ROBERT McLBA.N, Secretary," I sent that back to Mr. McLean, because it was not my firm that sent it to him. It was from the Queen City and he returned that letter together with a cheque addressed to the president. The letter was as follows : — (Exhibit 45t.) " Toronto, 19th April, 1887. " W* H. HowLAND, Esq., President Queen City Insurance Company, Toronto : " Dbar Sib, — On the 2nd inst. I wrote a letter to Messrs. Scott and Walmslej in which I returned the deposit cheque of $50 made by the Queen City Insurance Company on the 12th inst. I received a letter from these gentlemen returning the cheque and stating that any communication I had to make on this subject should be addreised to you. " I beg therefore to send you herewith the said deposit cheque for $50, and also the letter of the <2nd inst. above referred to, in which you will find the reason for returning that cheque, and why the Queea City Insurance Company cannot continue a member of the Toronto Board. " I am, dear sir, yours truly, " ROBERT MoLEAN, Secretary." (Exhibit 45/, Agenda, sec. 10, and Minutes, seo. 33.) By Mr. Bain ( Wenttoorth) : Q. They practically fired you out ? A. Yes; they fired ua out. Q. At that stage of the proceedings ? A. Just there. I would like to know whether I am a member of the association. Q. You were fired out of the Toronto Board ? A. They swore to you that I wa» not a member of the association. If it is not one and the same thing, how could thejr fire me out ? Q. You are out in the woods so far as Toronto is concerned ? A. They tried t* do that Q. In this particular occasion you were not asked to explain ? A» No; not is that matter. Q. That is hanging a fellow first and holding an investigation afterwards? A. Tee. By Mr. Fisher: Q. The statement that they make there is true, that yon are representing » ■eompany not in the association, a non-tariff company? A. Tee; all my other oeiiv- panies are mutual ; there is no doubt about that. 3— 31J 4B4 HUQH SOQTT. By Mr. Bain ( Weniworth) : Q. Bat np to this time they allowed you to represent these mutual companies and be a member of that board ? A. Yes ; certainly. By the Chairman : Q. Did this resolution passed at the Toronto Board become law without the assent of the higher association, of the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association ? They proceed to rate a building, for instance ; does that become law without further action on the part of the higher board ? A. Yes ; I think it is objected to. Q. Then this resolution was passed ? A. Yes. Yon see all the companies are represented there. Q. Now, since this Underwriters' Association was formed have you made a tariff of rate ? A. Yes; I assisted in framing it. Q. Was that higher than the previous tariflf of the companies ? A. No ; there was a great deal of pains taken to try and make it equitable, and I did so far as my changes were concerned. Q. Yes ; but did it mean a general raising, did it raise the rates ? A. No, sir^ it did not as a whole. Q. Pid you lower any ? A. Yes, sir, we did . By Mr. Casgrain : Q. Bo I understand you to say that it did not raise the rates as a whole ? A. No ; I do not think that it did. By the Chairman : Q. You are speaking of the schedule you made in 1883 or 1884 ? A. In some instances the rates were raised and in some instances they were lowered. Q. Were they rated on their merits ? A. Yes; as far as one can. Q. Then why did you object to this tariff? A. They jumped it up to three- quarters of one per cent, without any discrimination, without it being known. None of us were present at that meeting. We virtually left as I said in that letter, on the Friday, and the business on Saturday to be finished up was routine business (Exhibit 45 a|). It is in the minutes. Q. In this letter to the National of Ireland you made objections that flour mills advanced to two per cent., and those at two per cent, to two and one-quarter per cent, and two and three-quarter per cent., that is an advance of about 33^ percent. ? A. Yes. Q. Do you think that was justified ? A. Well, from the experience we then had before us, it was. Q. Do you think to-day, from your knowledge of that business, that it was justifi- able ? A. No, air. Q. Taking the cast iron rule without taking into consideration the moral hazard ? A. You see, I was only one in the community there. Q. I want your individual opinion as to the justice of that? A. No, sir. I think we have got nearer the basis in what we are doing in our companies now. We gave them 25 per cent, below that and are able to do it. Q. Then after this raise of practically almost exactly 33^ per cent, in your business, you thonght the important business was over. The association raised it how mnch ? A. Three-quarters of one per cent, on everything. Q. Three-quarters of one per cent ? A. Yes. By Mr. Bain ( Wenttoorth) : Q. On their whole business ? A. Yes; mills and storehouses. ' ' Q. But they did not raise it on their other class of risks? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. Yon think that was wholly unjustifiable? A. No, sir; we had not tested it. Q. The result was that there has been an increase of 60 per cent, with these twa jumps? A. Yes. These are the facts. I think I will show you what our experi- ence has been. That is the plan originally of the Millers' and Manufactarers*^ Insurance Company. INSURANCE. 485 Q. Now your Millers' and Manufacturers' Association form a tariff on this same <3las8 of risk . How would your tariff compare with that ? A. An average of 25 per cent, less. Q. An average of about 25 per cent, less ? A. They brought it back to aboat the tariff I had framed, to pretty nearly my own tariff. Q. Not any higher ? A. No^ not any higher. Q. And your experience after three years of that has been ample ? A. Wo have been able to return ten per cent, on a cash basis and have been able to put np « very nice reserve . Q. You paid ten per cent, to the shareholders ? A. Yes ; ten per cent, to the shareholders. The earning power of our capital is about six per cent. Q. What percentage of reserve have you had this year to the paid up capital ? What is the amount of your reserve ? You paid in 925,000 ? A. We found a difli- culty in raising the capital. We stopped when we got to $125,000. Q. And ten per cent, of that is paid up ? A. Yes. Q. What is the amount of rest that you laid by? A. We have to balance, of the profit and loss account at the close of 1887, $28,037.27. I am going to take the undertakings in force. We have reinsurance reserve of $11,191. Q. And in addition to that, you have cash to the amount of $2S,037 ? A. That is our reinsurance reserve. Our cash assets, which includes office furniture, which is a small thing, are $32,308.39. Then we have our capital stock to call up. Q. How do you make out capital stock not called up $112,000? A. $125,000 was the capital. I take this from the president's report at the last annual meeting in February : — " It is on the insistance of your having such appliances, combined with care, order and cleanliness, that we can expect to maintain in the future, as we have in the past, such a substantial reduction in the cost of insurance as 32^ cents on each dollar ot premium paid, or an average of 43 per cent." That is virtually what we have saved the millers. They would have ha J to pay 48 per cent, more had they gone into an ordinary stock company on their ordinary basis of rates, and much more when you go into the schedule rating, as a man conversant with the spirit of the thing can see. There is an ideal mill. It is not according to the genius of Canada at all. Whoever went into a mill here and found it equipped like that ? By Mr. Guillet : Q. Your tariff rate is lower than that which applies to the ideal mill? A. Yea. By the Chairman : Q The ideal mill commences with a minimum rate of 2 per cent, and then it has additions of 25, 5, 10, 10, 25, 10, lb, 50, 25, 15, 25, 15, 10, 50 and 25 percent, respect- ively, and only one deduction of 10 per cent. The ideal mill is a perfect mill, of xjourse. There is none of that kind. You think that on a fairly good mill thattariflf will be higher than the other one ? A. No doubt it is. I might have put in a sample here to-day. If you would like me to put one in I might show you. Q. Here is the same mill which is a little higher ? A. There are some risks that we won't write on at any rate. For instance there is one that was burned. Mr. Hanson inspected this in 24th November, 1885, the Jonathan Ellis mill of Port Dover. Mr. Hanson's remarks written on that day are : " There is no fault to be found with the cleanliness and order. The machinery is first class; there is no crowding; floors, shafting and machines aie kept clean. Everything is being worked to advantage and a large and profitable business is being done. Cotton is used pretty extensively ; and the kicker revolves 1,100 per minute." Q. What kind ot a mill is that ? A. A woollen mill, a kmtting mill. Mr. Han- son remarks: "Consider it uninsurable until a number ot radical alterations are made. This policy for $6,000 expires January, 1836. He is willing to make alter- ations. Ellis is about purchasing the property." These are the defects that he reports. One feature in connection with our business is this that we do not ask the insured to sign anything. We take the responsibility ; we see that the doors and everything else are all right, so that in the event of a loss we cannot raise any tech- nicality as to whether this or that existed, and here is a specimen : " No fire doora 486 HUOH SOOTT. between boiler house and finishing room and boiler hoase and factory. Opening^ between boiler hoase and finishing room boarded up ; should be bricked up. Picker- room in attic (lined with tin ; ceiling excepted). Steam jat inside. Picker room ceiling not lined with tin (lathed and plastered) ; not sufficient pails around, not sufficient water barrels. He wants a list of alterations req^uired sent to him." That. was burned down. Q. Did he make the alterations that were required ? A. No ; we are on his new mill now. He made his improvements because we did not go on. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. And then it was burned up and you paid ? A. No, sir ; we did not go on. By the Chairman : Q. It is a good thing to have a good inspector ? A. Yes ; and we have a good inspector. I take a little pride in him because I trained him myself. He was not in the business until he came in with the Millers' and Manufacturers'. By Mr. Guillet : Q. With reference to the flour business, the roller mills and the old process mills? A. We make no distinction when we accept them unless they are not doing, a profitable business. Q. There is no distinction on the tariff of the Underwriters' Association ? A^ No ; no distinction . By Mr. Bain (Wentworth) : Q. You look at the moral hazard, however, very closely ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. The moral hazard is greater in the old process mills ? A. In some instances it might be. Where they are doing a nice custom business and the moral hazard is all that can be desired. Q. They are getting out of date. Do you not consider there is more risk of their being burned in order to get the new process ? A. That would be as defined the other day. A man who deliberately set fire to it. Q. How many of those old process mills have you ? A. Two or three. I want to draw your attention to the fact, while I am on that subject, that the association do not take into consideration the moral risk at all. That was stated to you on Saturday, to my amusement. They did not understand that there was any moral hazard except the one of incendiarism. The Chaibman— Here is a paper that Mr. Scott submits in connection with the qnestion as to whether they are boycotting (Exhibit 46k). " BoAR> OF FiEE Underwriters, Toronto, 23rd February, 1888. "Dear Sir, — I am directed to request a reply in writing, to the following, to be forwarded in time to be presented by me to the next Board meeting. " By order of the Board " EOBEET MoLBAN, Secretary," Query:-— " 1. Has your company renewed any risks with the firm of Scott & Walmsley, or any employee ot the firm, with or without commission, contrary to Rule No. 8, which reads : That hereafter no officer nor any person holding official connection with a non-tariff company, or acting as agent or sub-agent for a non-tariff office^ shall bo eligible to represent or act for a tariff office, or receive or place business, or receive oommission with or from a member of this Board, whether as general agent, sub- agent, or in any capacity whatever," and came into force annual meeting January^ 1887. See names below. Firm of Staunton & Co., King Street, West. do do Factory, North Toronto. Firm of Ely, Blain & Co., Front Street East. Jteply « ..„ « Signature „ «... INSUBANCB. 48T Mr. Bain— This is from the Toronto Board. Is it ? The Chairman — I think Mr. Bobert McLean was anfair with this Committee. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. Is tbat the Toronto Board, Mr. Scott? A. Yes; that is the Toronto Board. The Chairman — Mr. McLean told us that that resolution was rescinded. What is the date ? Mr. GuiLLKT— February 23rd, 1888. Mr. Bain — It ap|)ears from that McLean was the secretary of both these associations. The Chairman — He said there was a joint association for the two provinces. He led us to believe Mr. Bain— I don't think he said anything of the Toronto Association, Mr. Ghairmao ; I may be mistaken. The Chairman— It would be depirable in the interests of the Toronto people that Mr. McLean should be again summoned before this Committee to explain. We were asking for full information, and he gave us this information, that this resolu- tion was passed, that it was rescinded and that there was no such resolution in existence and that there was do boycott. Mr. Bain— Until Mr. Scott spoke I don'tremember of having heard of a separate atisociation for the city of Toronto. By Mr. Quillet . Q. What has been the object or effect of it ? Has it been to raise the rates or lower the rates ? A. Well, it has kept up these rates, as I told you. I have got the hospital authorities to spend some $1,100 in order that they might lower their rates; I am placing hospital lisk at f per cent, for three years, and they pay the associa- tion 33^ more. Mr. Tatley told you of the disastrous fires in Quebec. They have had a good many that I knew of in the last ten years, yet their rates are much lower than in Toronto. By the Ghairman : Q. The rates for the city of Montreal are lower then in Toronto ? A. Yes. Q. How do you account for that ? A. Owing to the extraordinary influence of the English companies. By Mr. Bain (^WentwortK) : Q. Suppose you give us a specific quotation ? A. I am giving you the Jesuit Church. Q. Come down to the business transaction ? A. Well, I heard of schools. You would get them down in Montreal for 45 to 50 cents and they would charge 60 cents in Toronto ; I am speaking per annum. My impression is that that would bo about the rate. It would be 10 cents more in Toronto. Q. What do they charge for a wholesale warehouse along the front of the city ? A. Their rate is about 60 cents on wholesale places. That is about the minimum figuieSi Q. In Montreal 45 or 50 cents. Any greater security? A. Not such great- security, I contend. I might eay that the Queen City in 17 years, out of a $10,000 capital has earned 8158,000 or 400 per cent. As we say : *' This company has de- monstrated in the mott practical form the value of the syslem of ' iEt*pection ' and * selection ' in fire underwriting, having returned, since its oi^anization in 1871, to its shareholders in dividends, 166,000 ; new has at the credit of rest, $75,000 and o2 profit and loss, $17,254.74, making a total of $158,254.74, earned by a paid-up capital of only $10,000." By Mr. Wood ( Westrr. or eland) : Q. Does not the Underwriters' Association keep up rates of the stock companies; would that not operate then to the advantage of the mutual companies? A. Yes^ but Q. Does it not operate to the advantage of the mutual companies? A. I think that it will, now that persons are becomirg alive to it. You see that many of oar important industries have got to lesort to loan companies and banking parlies. 488 HUGH fCOTT.. and as a rale they have ostracised tnataal companies, and we have broken the ground, as the liillers' and Manafactarers' Insurance Company is being accepted by all the loan companies that I know of. Q. The banks and loan companies are doing this ? A. That is the general objection to mutual companies. Q. It is the banks and the loan companies that affect you rather than the association ? A. That is true, so far as that is concerned. You can easily under- fitand that there is no capital at the back of them vested in trustees. By Mr, Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. There is just this difficulty : You have to give, a premium in a mutual com- pany and you have a distinct liability as long as yoa are in a mutual company ? A. We only take a man equal to the amount paid in cash. Q. You take a premium note for the balance upon which they are liable to be called ? A. If it is one per cent, we take a premium note for one-half, and collect one-half, so that the insured is never at any one time liable for an assessment of a greater amount than the amount of his cash premium. Q. He has already paid his cash premium ? A. I say in addition to his cash premium. In the English mutuals they take five times. Q. It is not a question of quantity, but all the same you have a double liability? A. Yes ; it is a double liability. By Mr. Guillet: Q. Do you confioe your business to Toronto ? A. No, sir. Last year we ex- tended the (.^ueen City charter to all over Ontario. We had our charter extended. Q. You do business outside of Toronto? A. We do now. Before, when we first applied for a charter, we restricted it to the county of York until we built up our reserve. Since we have our reserve we are extending. Q. Do you do a pare mutual ? A. The Queen City is stock. We give a portion of our dividend to our policy holders now that we are in that position. Q. You put up your deposit and do a provincial business ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Have you established agencies outside of the county of York? A. No; wo are trying to do it on the same lines as the way we commenced, by direct inspection, giving a benefit. Q. Yon have to receive applications direct, irrespective of agencies and can- vassers ? A. Just salarit^d officers. They go there. By Mr. Bain ( WentwortK) : Q. You are dcing the same business that you have heretofore been doing in the Millers' and Manufacturers' ? A. Yes; just so. By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) ; Q. Are you of the firm of Scott & Walmsley referred to here ? A. Yes. Q. I can see that one ground of your contention. The Fire Underwriters' Asso- ciation has this rule or regulation that they prevent an agent from doiug business for any company not in the association at the same time he does business for his own ? A. Yes. Q. That is a sort of boycotting business ? A. Precisely. Q. That is a good objection. I can hardly see the use and force of the other objection that the remedy, the raising of the rates by the Fire Underwriters' Associa- tion raising the rates on mills, was the formation of these manufacturers' insurance oompanieB. A. Yes. Q. Who ha-* been hurt by it? A. No person. Q. Except companies that were in the association. Thoy have lost business? A. True. The Chairman then referred at some length to underground insurance, showing how under the higher rates a great deal of the insurance went to the United States. By the Chairman : Q, We have the proof in the cases that have come to our notice that they have raised the prices, for instance, on the millers and manufacturers. Every change that INSURANCE. 489 has been made has been a general raising of the prices ? A. Well, in some instanoea it has. You mean with this tariff schedule rating ? Q. Yes ? A. It has certainly raised it. Q. It is for manufactories of various kinds. It has raised it all along the line. What has been the general effect in the cities and towns and all over by the chana;ea that have been made from the first tariff of the association ? For example, dwellinpf houses? A. I think they have reduced them in Ontario except in Toronto. There they have kept them at that high standard. Q. But the mutual companies have been doing the business outside. Perhaps it was they who kept the rate down ? A. There is no doubt that they have studied them. jLook atj the rate made by the Isolated Risk in 1873. If that company had devoted their time to legitimate business instead of sending its little bulletins through the country decrying mutual companies, they would have been in existence to-day. They eent them broadcast all over the country attacking mutual companies. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Was that the cause of their failure? A. I think it must have been. I think if they had devoted that time to legitimate business they would have been in existence to-day. I know my whole time is occupied looking after my business. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Are these companies making a large amount of money j that is these com- panies that belong to the association ? A. You could not expect it. The great diffi- culty in making money with companies that are in the association is the way they pay their employees by commission and the fitct that there is no discrimination in taking risks. Q. I was not asking the reasons, I was asking the fact ? A. I cannot tell until I see the returns. They have had disastrous fires in Montreal. Q. Take for the years that returns are in ? A. I think their position has beea improved. By the Chairman ; Q. Notwithstanding that businees is going to the States? A. Yes. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Are they making more than a legitimate profit? A. I do not think that they are, as they do the business. Q. Is not the real difficulty in these rates largely to be attributed to the differ- ence in the system upon which mutual companies do their business? A. Yes; en- tirely so. When I tell you that these New England companies brought it down to 17*1 per cent, and the average for some years has been only 28. Q Where are the cotton companies insured ? A. Nearly all in New England as are also the paper mills. Q. Do any of the companies have branches in Canada ? A. No. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Then yon think the (jffdct cf this combination has been to drive that class of business over there? A. To a very great extent. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. How do you make out here ? A. I gave an instance in the letter wbioh I read to you. The Kiordan Paper Mill is one. Q. Could our companies under any circumstances, taking the cotton mill basi- ness for example, do that business at the rates they get in the mutaals in the United States ? A. I think there would be a feeling here among our manufacturers that they would pay an equitable rate and allow a margin. Many of them would anyway. By the Chairman : Q. I cannot see why Canadian companies cannot insure your building for the same amount as the American companies. It is the same risk ? (No answer.) By Mr. Wood (Westmoreland) : Q. What I am coming at is this: Take the cotton mill, they have a mutiai organization, as I understand, in the United States, where they simply assess on the 490 HUaH 800TT. difTorent mills the losses which occur in the year, and in that way they get their intsorance at an exceedingly low rate ? A. Just so. Q. Now if I understood your statement a little while ago, I must say that I quite agree with you in saying that it is utterly impossible for stouk companies to da buainess at those rates ? A. Of course they cannot. Q. And the reason that these cotton mills would go to the United States is beoaube it is impossible for these companies to do business at those rates ? A. But you must remember, coming back to what I stated, that it is the insured who pay the losEes and ezpenees. They create the necessity. It is so in every instance, no matter whether you call it stock or mutual. There is a certain class of business that stock companies will always command and they should not be antagonistic to mntuals. They are fighting against the veiy source on which they depend for their existence. Now here is a case in point, which 1 referred to in my letter CExhibit 45a): "Last week the Merritton Cotton Mills Company placed $100,000 of their risk in American companies, $10,000 of which was covered last year under your * National ' policy 201842, as a great personal favor we were able to retain $5,000 eovered now by your policy." Q. That is an exceptional circumstance ? A. Yes ; but there are a great many in a young country like Canada, situated in the same way. Q. Bat if these stock companies on account of the system upon which they do their business cannot afford to do it at those rates you cannot make them ? A But ST there were no fires there would be no companies. There is always a certain class of business open to them. Q. I may say that I agree with wjat this gentleman has said that the cheapest principle of insurance is mutual ? A. It is the only insurance that exists. It must be mutual, no matter what names you call it by. There is one thing that I would like to draw your attention'to, and that is the great fire waste in Canada. I will leave this book with you (Exhibit 45m) for it is the only one I know of in Canada. You take the fire waste in Canada for the ten years between 1875 and 1884 and it amounted to the enormous suai of $91,946,336. Then you take the year 1884 alone and it amounted to close upon $7,000,000, the actual amount being $6,900,815. By the Chairman : Q. How much of that $91,000,000 was paid by the insurance companies? A. $41,602,862. I do not gee w by we should not have a system of fire marshals appointed throughout Canada to look aiier and compel a certain amount of carefulness. You have your Factory Act which I believe compels a certain amount of care in connec- tior with machinery. Judge Bitchie, I think he had some connection with insur- ance at one time, and he had this clause inserted in the policy: — " Where insurance is upon buildings or their contents, for lo^'S caused by want of good and substantial brick or stone chimneys ; or by ashes or embers being deposited "with the knowledge and consent of the insured, in wooden vessels ; or by stoved and stovepipes being, to the knowledge of the insured, in an unsafe condition or impro- I>erly secured." Now that has been accepted, and that gives an agent going in, the power to ahow him that he is violating his policy to do so. Canada, however, ought to devise some measure in this direction, and this Committee ought to take the initiative. I think a recommendation from this Committee would have some effect. I will draw your attention to what we have saved through the Millers' and Manufacturers'. There are cards of thanks that we have received setting forth what value our inspection has been and the suggestion made. The last one involving $50,000 was saved by having pails of water on hand (Exhibit 45n) and this is important when you consider that it is just so much capital saved. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Are there any advantages from this Association of Fire Underwriters at all ? A. There is undoubtedly if conducted properly. I must admit that it steadies rates^ No man in business wishes to do business with a company that is losing money or is drifting in that direction. INSI7BANCX. 491 Q. Then it is an advantage in making certain regulations obliging cities to make provision for patting out fire ? A. They do to a certain extent. Q. It is claimed by gentlemen who were here the other day, that as a result oi this united organization, they could go to a city and eay : '* if you will get certain appliances to put out fires, we will reduce your rates " ? A. There is no question that they have done good in that direction ; but I think the Grovemment should go a step further. It is the incipient fires that they could take care against. Take any- one of these warehouses here, and if 1 were to take you through to inspect them, yon would be amazed. Gborgk Hanson, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. What is your name, occupation, and address? A. George Hanson, Inspector for the Millers' and Manufacturers' Insurance Company, Toronto. Q. What is the Millers' and Manufacturers', a mutual or a stock company ? A. It. is mutual. The business is purely mutual. Q. You have stock ? A. Yes; we have stock. Q. What is that for ? A. To give absolute security for the insured. Q. What classes do you specially insure? A. Special hazards, factories of all descriptions, mills, foundries, tanneries, &c. Q. Have you agents soliciting business ? A. No, sir, all the soliciting is done by me, Q. Applications are made, and you go to inspect ? A. Yes ; I have the ap- plication and make a report which is submitted to our board of directors, and they decide whether they will accept it or reject it. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Do you go back and re-examine, and see whether changes have been madef A. I examine two or three times a year if possible. I keep up a system of re- inspec- tion all the time . Q. You have seen this Canadian Fire Underwriters' schedule? A. Yes. Q. How does your tarifi" compare with it ? A. It is considerably under. Q. Do you think this is an unworkable tariff or that it imposes too high rates? A. Undoubtedly. I have known of cases where the rate has been jumped up 50 per cent. Q. Since this schedule was brought in ? A. Yes ; recently. By Mr. Bain (^Weniworth) : Q. As the result of their examination ? A. Yes ; by the association inspector. Q. He considered the property to bo hazardous? A. He makes a report and the board makes a rate. Q. His would bo a similar inspection to yours ? A. Not quite. He just takes into consideration the building and construction of it ; whether the shaftings are running all right, &c. 6y the Chairman : Q, You take into consideration the moral hazard ? A. Yes. Q. This schedule we have here, is there no moral hazard included in it in any way ? A No. Q. There is nothing left to the discretion of the agent? A. No. They simply fix the rate on the report of the inspector and that is given to the agent of that district, and he simply gets that rate without enquiring any further into the moral hazard. Q. Do you think the moral hszard is an important element in your inspection? A. Yes; I am very careful in making enquiries, atd even after that our directors, who are all manufacturers and merchants themselves, very often know more about the man than I can possibly obtain. Q. As to his methods of doing business and standing? A. Yes; and very often a risk, the moral hazard of which I should consider good, they condemn. 492 GEORGE HANSON. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) ; Q. You enlist their aid and co-operation, being interested in having your risks in good shape ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Hove long have you been working for the Millers' and Manufacturers' Assooift* tion ? A. Three years; since organization. Q. What has been the result of your examinations and recommendations as to risks? A. I consider it has been highly satisfactory. We have had very fevr fires, and a great number that I have made inspection of have been condemned on the ground of the moral hazard involved, and have been burned out. By the Chairman : Q. You say that the directors sometimes refuse to take risks ? A, Yes ; the -directors refuse to take risks. Q. And they have since been burnt down ? A. Yes. By Mr, Quillet ; Q. In reference to flour mills, the old process mills, do you find them in good business connection and doing well ; when you find them in this position do you in- sure them at the same rate as the roller process mills ? A. We have only two or three and the moral hazard is unquestionable. Q. Do yon take into consideration that a roller mill might be established in the neighborhood and take away their business? A. Yes; we do, certainly. Q. Would you be at liberty to cancel their policies then ? A. Oh, yes ; and they could cancel also. Q. As a matter of fact this company has only taken two or three ? A, We have evidecce that they are not in the same position as the others, they are not in as advantageous a position now as before the roller mills came in. We have not con- sidered the moral hazard in the stone mill as good as the roller mill. I have noticed lately, that there has been a reaction in favor of the old process flour. It is not general, but it is a reaction. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. In that case you think the moral hazard better? A. Yes; better. Q. Three year risks ? Are they three year risks ? A. No ; only one. By Mr. Quillet: Q. You place a three year risk sometimes ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. The mutual rate for farms is generally three years, but in the manufactories where there is much risk it is only one. You say that your inspection has been pretty satisfactory. Your care in taking the moral hazard into account has resulted in advantage to the company and of course to the insured ? A. Yes. Q. You have to pay the losses ? A. Yes. Q. About what is your rate, say for flour mills ? A. For first class flour millS) what we would consider a standard mill Q. A first class mill whether stone or roller, a water mill I mean ? A. Our rate is from 1-75 up to 2 per cent; in some cases a little lower. Q. It would be about an average of 1.75 ? A. Yes, and in some cases a little lower than that. The average would be about 1*75. It is really about 2 per cent. Q. The other companies charge 8^ to 3^ per cent. ? A. Yes, and up to 5 per cent, on some frame baildings, that is if the boiler house is not perfect. About 4^ per cent, if there is a boiler house. Q. A steam flour mill minimum rate is 2^ per cent, for a perfect mill and the water power is 2 per cent., and there are additions to be made to that. The tariff that you charge — has experience proved that it is sufficient to insure and pay all expen-eb ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And according to your report it has given you a rest in addition ; the com- pany has tet aside a rest ? A. Yes. Q. That would be an evidence that the charges you make are sufficiently high? A, Yes. INSURANCI. 495- Q. And consequently that the charges in this tariff mnst be exorbitant ? A» Yes ; they do not sufficiently discriminate between a good and a bad risk. Q. That is the great difficulty of a good and a bad risk being too near together ? A. Tes; the good risk has to pay for the bad one in many cases. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Do you insure lumber and saw mills? A. No. Q. Do you find any dissatisfaction among those you insure about your rates ? A. About combination rates ? Q. No; about your rates ? A. Oh, most insurers want to get as low rates as possible. Q. Some consider it too high ? A. Everyone thinks he has got the best risk, but they are open to conviction and we got along very pleasantly. The oases where there is any dissatisfaction are very few indeed. By the Chairman : Q. You take premium notes and cash payments too ? A. Yes. Q. You charge If per cent. ? A. Yes. Q. And then you take a note for ] f per cent, more ? A. Yes ; we collect 60 per c«nt. of the note. Q. You take a note for 3^ per cent ? A. Yes ; and collect one half of it. Q. Have you had to collect more than one half? A. No ; we have returned re- bates, giving a portion of that back again. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. You have made no assessment in three years ? A. No. By the Chairman : Q. The cash you received is sufficient to pay your losses ? A. Yes ; I might say that our average rate on first-class stone mills with boiler house separated entirely from the main building, and with water power, would be about 2 percent., but there are places where the appliances are extraordinarily good and we might take lower than that — 1*85 or 1"75 per cent. Q. A steam flour mill ? A. No ; water mill. Q. 1-75 for a water mill ? A. Yes ; but the average would be about two per cent, all round. Where the boiler house is away from the mill, and there is no con- nection between the mill, we would lower the rate. Where the boiler house is 20 or 30 feet away we would lower it. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Then you do business at 1'76, and you get a premium note and collect it afterwards ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Has no intimidation been used towards you by these companies in the Un der- writers' Association ? A. Yes. Q. State what it was ? A. Well, for example, where we cannot carry the whole of the insurance on a large establishment, other companies, through their agents, have refused, and have threatened not to carry the balance of the insurance if they found that they were sharing the business with us. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. What is your limit? A. Our limit on first-class risks by re-insurance, is from $30,000 to $40,000, but that limit without re-insurance is $5,000. By the Chairman : Q. This re-insurance then is not with any members of the Fire Underwriters* Association. A. It is outside of this combination. Q. With companies doing business in Canada? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. You have found that they used intimidation with the insured parties by say- ing to them " you will either have to get out of that or get out of durs " ? A. Ye^; some of the most respectable firms. Q. And has that come under your notice? A. Yes ; during the last three years. 494 OBORGX HAR80F. By Mr, Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. Have you lost any basiness by that means ? A. Yes. Q. And the insured parties have lost money 7 A. Yes. That conld be verified as often as you wished, if it was necessary. Q. You can give statements of the instancss ? A. Yes. Q. Would it be judicious to ask ? A. No, sir, it was in confidence. By Mr. Quillet : Q. You lost these risks and they were taken by another company, and they suffered by taking them? A. They lost money by not insuring with us. The CHA.IBMAN — He oflfered to do it at one and three quarters and the other charged two and three quarters. Q. If you take a risk of $30,000 or $40,000 and reinsure, will you get it done at the same rates ? A. Yes ; at the same rates. They take our rates. Q. Even not in the combination ? A. Yes, not in the combination. Q. Did you ever get it done at the sama rates in the combination ? A. No, sir, we do not reinsure with them at all. Q. And that has interfered materially with your business. A. Very materially. Q. Do you find that has acted now, as it was ? A . Not quite, because in many -oases that has been sufficient to make them come to us, in some cases where we have only taken a portion of insurance I have had to make an agreement that if the other companies will not re-insure, and they are unable to place the balance with the com- bination companies, that we would take it. We would help them out of the difficulty where they didn't wish to place it all in one policy. Q. Have you ever had any trouble with companies for not re-insuring them ? Ai No, sir. Q. How have they always met their obligations to you ? A. Promptly, By Mr. GuilUt : Q. These factories desire to insure with you at your rates, and you were com- pelled to insure with other companies you say ; would that be because those eompanies had mortgages with loan societies, who have special rules forbidding insurance with mutuals ? A. Well, in some cases, but latterly our policies have been accepted by almost all of the loan societies and a considerable number of banks, but in cases where the president of a loan society or the agent of a loan society or a bank official has the agency of another company, of course he would object to us . Q. I do not understand why any factory would obtain a much higher rate tham he could obtain good insurance from you, without some pressure on the part of th« loan company ? A. Well, some people don't believe in mutual companies at all. Q. Possibly the pressure was such or the persuasion brought to bear upon th* insured would induce them to take higher rates ? A. Quite so. By Mr. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. On a $30,000 or $40,000 policy, you would have to replace so much of it f A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Stock companies will take larger amounts. For instance, they individually take larger risks ? A. I do not think individually they take any more. There ar« not many individual stock companies, tariff companies, that take more than $5,000 on a manufacturiug risk. By the Chairman : Q. They divide it up just as well «a yoa ? A. One company may take $25,00t And re-insure the same as we do. Q. Can you give us an example^of this intimidation ? ?A. Well, I would not lika to without consulting the parties, both e^t and west of ^Toronto^ that has ooourrttA i^m time to time. Q. In many iostunoee 7 A. Yet ; many uuitanMBr Q. Beoently 7 A. Well, not very reoentlj. INSUBANCX. 495 By Mr. Bain ( Wentworih) : Q. Is that not where you were catting into their basiness or where you wor© eimply taking your own lino of $5,U0 ) ? What were the circumstances suiroanding these cases generally ? A. It would not matter whether it was 5 or 20. Q. You were t^ing the whole amount of their insurance ? A. Only a portioa of it. Q. Taking it at lower rates ? A. Yes ; at lower rates. By Mr. Guillet: Q. In the case oi a manufacturer who wanted to put an additional $5,000 abovtt what he had in these companies, and you took it, would this Underwriters' Associa* tion notify him, the manufacturer, that the others would withdraw the risk ? A. They might do it. Q. They haven't done so in any case ? A. I haven't heard of any ease of that kind. Mr. Bain — It was only where they are cutting in taking larger amounts. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Has there ever been a case suuh as lliis ? A. Not where iLSurance has beeo put on and an addition of 85,000 or $10,000. I don't know that has been done. I don't think that there has been such a circumstance, I cannot call to mind any case. Q. Has there been a case where you have offered to take $5,000 renewal policj instead of one that was in some of those companies, and the result was that they caa- celled the policy or told the persons that they would cancel it ? A. The statement has been made to me by the insured that they have been threatened wiih that from Lead- quarters, through the agent of the town or village. By Mr. Guillet : Q. Have you lost a policy in such a case ? A, Yes. There is one case whero we negotiated for a certain amount, where we could take some $75,000 and I didn*t get it. I asked why. and he told me that the agent had threatened to deprive him of the protection of all the combination, if they gave us 5,000 or 10,000 or any amount. Q. That is a case in point? A. That is a case in point and they wrote stating that they were prepared to take the $75,000 that I had been promised. Q. Do you know an instance of a company after you had insured a property witb^ drawing and cancelling their policy ? Have you any instance of that kind ? A. I cannot give you a particular instance. The threat has been made. I cannot say that it has been carri«d out. I know that we have lost business. Q. Can you tell us where you lost business ? By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. How long ago ? A. Well, this one particular instance of the large amount is about two years ago, not more than thaL The threat has been repeated since. By the Chairman : Q. In the same oaee ? That refers to the same person ? A. That refers to others in the same town. Q. At a recent date. You have heard it repeated at a recent time ? A. Yea ; and I have had to make an agreement with them to place the balance with other companies. That I would help them out of the difficulty. Q. Have you looked fgr these ? A. Yes. Q. Who are they ? A. Spink Bros. Q. They have b«en rat«dby this tariff. We hare here the Underwriters' tariff? ^ Tes. Q. What is the rate for Spinks' mill ? Kb. Soott — A. On Spinks' mill the rate would be ${.55. Q. What do yon oall the present rate, is that. the underwriters' tariff? A. Tea; that shows that the schedule nte has increased. Mr. Soott.— On the schedule rating the Spink mill was placed at $3.55, whertM 4he exact rate was $2.75, making an increase of 80 cents per $100. The MoLaaghliB and Moore mill, the schedule ratiniq^ made it $3.75, while the exact rate was 3 per ^ent, making an increaee there of 75 cents. On the Howlaad mill, Tlkorold, thtt 496 WILLIAM YOUNG. schedule rating was $3.40, and the present exacted rate is $2.75, making an increase of «8 cents per $100. Q. Spiokci' mill and the Howland mill are water mills, and the McLaughlin and Moore mills are steam ? A. Yee. The Committee adjourned. HousB OP Commons, Ottawa, 8th May, 1888. The Committee on Alleged Trade and Insurance Combinations met this morning^ Mr. Wallace in the chair. William Young, Chief of the Ottawa Fire Brigade, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. How does the fire protection this year compare with four or five years ago T A. It is better now than then. Q. In what way ? A. We have increased our numbers in the force, and we have increased our appliances. Q. Yoa have increased the number of men of the fire brigade ? A. Yes. Q, What increase ? A. 17 to 32, nearly double. Q. And in what other way have you increased it ? A. We have two more reels ; ■wo had four and now we have six. Q, The area of the city is a little extended? A. Yes; a little. We have also an extension ladder of 75 feet, which we can raise to the top of the highest building. Q. And is your brigade in a pretty efficient state? A. Yes, sir. Q. What about the losses for a series of years. Have you a record of the losses ? A. Yes; we keep a record as far as we can ascertain. Here it is from 1877 to 1887. Q. I see that the number of alarms and the losses are as follows: — Date. No. of Fires. Losses. Insurance. 1877 120 $24,275 $105,900 1878 119 19,107 167,880 1879 104 16,586 124,050 1880 96 27,473 131,b80 1881 « 108 11,482 66,000 18S2 98 13,4S8 140,630 1883 117 25,098 88,075 J884 Ill 10;93y 32,000 1885 99 16,465 72,216 1886 125 36,454 194,250 1887 141 88,661 182,475 I see the losses last year were far ahead of any previous year. How do yo« account for that ? A. Five of those fires were large buildings and lumber yards alid mills, and things of that kind. In January last we had a fire in the Canadian Insti- tute, the loss being $12,000; in March Mr. W. W. Brown's place took fire, the loss being $6,500 on goods and buildings ; in April wo had a fire at Messrs. Perley & Pattee's mill, the loss being $15,000 (that is, their lathing mill); in July there was a fire in the Davis block in Eideau street, the loss being $6,500 between buildings and stock, and in Woodburn's, the loss being $7,300 on stock principally, and in September there was a fire in Murray Street, Mr. Lamarche and six others suffering to the extent of $10,000. That makes a loss of $57,300 in six fires. Q. Then you think your security in the city is greater than it was five or six years ago before the Fire Underwriters' Association was established ? A. I think so. I am pretty sure it is. We have more applianoes and more men, and the water enpply is fully equal to what it was. Q. Have you strengthened your water power in any way, increased the power f A. No. INSURANCK. 49T Q. Have you ample power for fir e pnrpoees ? A. Yes. The fact is we have nsed nothing but our water power yet except outside the limits. The Union has been used once or twice over at the mills, but they could have done as well over there without it. Q. Do you know what rates of insurance you pay now ? A. We are as low as iiny other city in Canada. Q . You are in class A ? A. Yes, they say so. Q. Have you always been in class A ? A. Previous to the year before last wo were in class B. I think they classed us in B once. Q. Being in class B before and class A now, the rate of insurance ought to have lessened ? A. Yes. They lessened the rates on lumber I know last year. John FBRausON, Manager of the Grand Opera House, Ottawa, sworn. By the Chairman : Q. You have heard tne evidence of Chief Young about the increased fire proteo> tion in Ottawa ? A. Yes. Q. You have buildings in various parts of the city. A. Yes. Q. You have an Opera House ? A. Yea. Q. Have you any record of the insurance that you paid some years ago and what you are paying to-day ? A. Yes, I have on the Opera House. Q. Is the Opera House in about as safe a condition as regards fire as it was? A. Yes, just the same. There are some of my policies. Q. I see that in 1882, from the 2Hth March, 1881, to the 29th March, 1882, you paid $90 premium for a policy of $:J,000 for one year ? A. Yes. That is 3 per cent,, but in 1: 84 it was raised to & per cent. Q. 1 see also that for a $2,000 policy you paid $50 premium, 2 J per cent., in the Standard Fire Infeurance Company of Hamilton, in 1879. At the same time you had this 3 per cent, in the Koyal, you had this 2^ per cent, in the Standard ? A. Yes. Q. This rate at which you insured in 1879 continued for several years ? A. Up to 1884. Since I84i4 it has been raised. Q. Well, then, this is 1888. I see you pay $150 premium for a policy of $3,000. This is the same building, and the policy is dated 29th March, 1888, for one year. This is the Eoyal Company and they are charging you 5 per cent ? A. Yes. Q. And since then the city has been changed from class B to class A. A. Yes, It was in 1884 when they made the raise. Q. They raised it Irom 3 per cent, straight to 5 per cent. A. Yes, sir. Q. When do vou say they raised it? A. In 1884. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. Did they give you any reason for raising it? A. Well, they gave me no Teason. Q. Did you ever ask them why? A. Well, before the combination, I was in- sured in the Citizens' and in the Standard, the rate in the latter being 2?f per cent., and after the combination they would not take it at any other rate than the 5 per cent., and I had to take it from the Citizens' and Standard and give it to the Lanca- shire and Royal. By the Chairman: Q. All the companies charge you the same rate ? A. Yes; they do now. Q . Naturally, then, you would insure in what kind of a company ? A . The strongest company when I had to pay the same rate. I would be content to run a xjertain risk if I could get it for less. Q. In what companies do you insure now? A. In the Royal and Lancashire. Q. These are both English companies. The effect is to drive the business from the Canadian companies into the English companies when there is a uniform rate ? A. Yes. Q. Then your experience with the Opera House is that they raised your rates. IJow is it less safe or secure or is there more danger of fire in 1888 than there 7»vi 3—32 498 PATKICK KELLY. in 1882 or 1883 ? A. Not so macb, because I have facilities for putting out fires, such as fire hose, &c. Q. That you had not then ? A. Yes. Q. And which makes it still more secure? A. Yes. Q. And they have raised the prices on you ? A* Yes. Q. You have other property in Ottawa ? A . Yes. Q. How about the rate of insurance on your other property ? A. That is about the same. By Mr. Guillet : Q. There is no advance ? A. No, sir. By 3^. Bain ( Wentworth) : Q. But it is not any lower ? A. I do not think so. In looking over my receipts to-day I found it is about the same rate. Three-fourths of one per cent, for buildings for three years. Q. That is for private dwellings ? A. Yes. Q. They are more or less isolated ? A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. The rate is three-fourths ot one per cent, for three years ? A. Yes. By Mr. Guillet : Q, These isolated dwellings are not in the combination but are in mutual companies? A. No, the Queen's. Q. The Qaeen City of Toronto ? A. The Queen's is an English company. The combination has the effect of freezing out the weaker companies. Patbick Kelly, sworn. By the Chairman : Q, Will you give the Committee your name, occupation and address? A, Patrick Kelly, Blyth, Ont. ; occupation, miller. Q. You have heard the evidence about insurance from these two witnesses. You are a miller — a flour miller ? A. Yes. Q. Are you aware of the existence of the Fire Underwriters' Association ? A. Tea ; I am aware of that combination. Q. Of it being formed some years ago ? A. Yes. Q. How did it affect your flour mill insurance ? A. For years before that we were paying in the Western 9'^. 25 and we got it down to 2 per cent, on the brick mill. It is what you would call a number one class. Q. Water mill or steam ? A. Steam. As soon as the combination got into operation they raised it to $3.26. Q. That is some five or six years ago ? A. It is five or six years ago ; I do not remember the exact date. I did not come here to give evidence of this character. Q. Did you acquiesce in that ? A. No ; I did not acquiesce in that. The fact of the matter is we had to quit. It was more than a rent. We did not withdraw the whole of our insurance from these companies but we went into another stock and mutual. We drew a large portion out and went into some mutuals. There were 8ome mutuals outside of this arrangement. ^ Q. They had been started up since? A. Yes; and then there was what is known as the Millers' and Manufacturers' Association. We are in that some $5,000. We had to get into it to get out of this extra heavy insurance. Q. Are they charging you as high as that in the regular stock companies? A. We are out of the stock companies now. They charged us within a quarter of that but they agreed latterly to take it at 3 per cent. We would not touch it at that but divided our insurance among the Millers' and Manufacturers' and mutual^companies. By Mr. Wood ( Westmoreland) : Q. What does it cost you there ? A. About 2 to 2*25, but we have had about 10 per cent, remitted, which is equivalent to about 2 per cent. ; and the general rate of the other mutuals is about 2, too. All round, it costs about 2 per cent, for thifr olasB of mill, which is a number one steam flour milL SECTION V. EXHIBITS REFERRED TO IN THE FOREGOING EVIDENCE. 3-32i SUQAR. 501 EXHIBIT 1. Corrected to IQth January, 1888. DOMINION WHOLESALE GBOCBES' GUILD, SECRETARY'S OFFIQB. SUQAB AGREEMENT. Hames of Subscribers. Toronto— Eby, Blain & Co. Perkins, Ince & Co. Davidson & Hay. Warren Bros. & Boomer. Sloan & Mason. Bckardt, Kyle & Co. F. Smith & Co. R. & T. Watson. F. Kierap & Co. Smith & Keifichley. J. W. Lang & Co. Thos. Kinnear & Co. B. Danbar^ Christie, Brown & Co, Robertson Bros. Hamilton — John Stuart, Son & Co. (Limited)i Wm. H. Gillard & Co. Jas. Turner & Co. Lucas, Park & Co. A. Harvey «& Co. Macpherson, Glassco & Co. Lumsden Bros. Brown, Balfour & Co. Stuart Bros. London — D. S. Perrin & Co. Ed. Adams &Co. M. Masuret & Co. T. B. Escott & Co. A. M. Smith & Co. Elliott Bros. McCormick Manufacturing Co. John Scandrett. Brantford — Geo. Watt & Sons. A. Watts & Co. G«o. Foster. Berlin — Randall & RooSi Sarnia — T. Kenny & Co. Montreal — Tees, Wilson & Co. " Caverhill, Hughes & Co. George Chi Ids & Co. Lockerby Bros. Ranson, Forbes & Regan. Hudon, Hebert & Cie« David Crawford. Turner, Rose & Co. L. Chaput, Fils & Cie. Kinloch, Lindsay & Co, W. R Ross & Co. Wm. Donahue & Co. Ward, Carter & Co. Lightbound, Ralston & Co, Tiffin Bros. Charles Lecaille & Cie. N. Quintal &Fils. Hudon & Orsali. Gaucher & Tellmosse. P. Grace & Co. A. Cusson & Fils. Peter Rowan & Co, A. Robitaille & Cie. H. Gariepy & Cie. Beauchamp, Pigeon & Cie* John Shelly dh Co. D. C. Brosseau, Jos. Gorbeil. A. Corbeil. J. 0. Villeneuve & Co. Dufresne & Mongenais. J. C. Marchand&Co. J. H. Semple. J. D. Adams & Co. H. Laporte. Doyle & Anderson. J. B. Mullen & Co. The Lang Manufacturing Co. J. W. Tester & Co. Thomas Lamb. Viau & Frere. Walter Paul. 502 SUGAR. Quebec — John E088 & Co. Whitehead & Tarner. T. LeDroit. Thomson, Codville & Co. N. Turcotte. Langlois & Paradis. Ottawa — C. T. Bate & Co. F. Baskerville & Bro. H. H. Brennan. Scott & Rainsford. Brockville — T. Gilmour & Co. Kingston — Geo. Kobertson & Son. A. Gunn & Co. Fenwick, Hendry & Co. J. A. Hendry & Bro. Jas. Browne & Co. E. Carson. W. R. MoRae & Co. Belleville— Pitceathly & Kelso. Wallbridge & Clark. Trenton — S. S. Young. EDGAR A. WILLS, Secretary. NoTi. — The names printed in italics were originally subscribers to " The Sni;ar Agreement " (Bxhibit 4) but who were subsequently struck from oflF the list by orders of the Qnild, and thereby excluded from the more favored terms of purchase granted to members of the Guild, at the Refineries. EXHIBIT 2. MONTREAL BOARD OF TRADE. (Wholesale Grocers' Association.) Montreal, 24th February, 1888. Dear Sir, — Until further notice the limited selling price on all graded whito «agars will be as follows : — Extra granulated— 15 barrels and over in one sale 7f do do Under 16 barrels *l^ Extra ground — 15 barrels and over in one sale *.. S|^ do do Under 15 barrels 8^^ do do Boxes (3 boxes to count as 1 barrel) 8f Powdered — 15 barrels and over in one sale lit do Under 15 barrels 7f Grocers' A — 15 barrels and over in one sale None. do do Under 15 barrels None. Confectioners' A — 15 barrels and over in one sale None. do do Under 16 barrels None. St. Lawrence A No. 1 — 15 barrels and over in one sale. . . .None. do do do Under 15 barrels None. do do No. 2 — 15 barrels and over in one sale. . . .None, do do do Under 15 barrels None. Cut cubes or Paris lumps — 16 barrels and over in one sale... 7f^ do do do Under 15 barrels *l^ do do do Half barrel ^.. *l\l do do do Boxes (3 boxes to count as 1 brl.) 8 I am, dear sir, yours truly, GEO. HADRILL, Secretary. Sales to merchants in the city of Montreal, west of Montreal as far as Coteau, aad south of the River St. Lawrence, \q. per lb. less. The above were the prioes to members of the association on date specified, for the following week. SUQAR. 503 EXHIBIT 3. WHOLESALE GEOCBRS' ASSOCIATION. Office Board of Trade, Montrbal, 2nd March, 1888. DsAR Sir, — Until farther notice the limited selling price on all graded white sugars will be as follows : — Extra granulated — 15 barrels and over in one sale tf do Under 15 barrels 7|f Extra ground — 15 barrels and over in one sale 8f do Under 15 barrels 8^ do Boxes (3 boxes to count as one barrel) 8f Powdered — 16 barrels and over in one sale 1^ do Under 15 barrels 7f Grocers' A — 15 barrels and over in one sale None. do Under 15 barrels None. Confectioners' A — 15 barrels and over in one sale None. do Under 15 barrels None. St. Lawrence A No. 1 — 15 barrels and over in one sale None, do do Under 15 barrels , None. do A No. 2 — 15 barrels and over in one sale None. do do Under 15 barrels None. Cat cubes or Paris lumps — 16 barrels and over in one sale.... 7f do do Under 15 barrels. 7|- do do Half barrel 7}f do do Boxes (3 boxes to count as 1 barrel) 8 I am, dear sir, yours truly, GEO. HADRILL, Secretary, Sales to merchants in the city of Montreal, west of Montreal as far as Coteao, and south of the River St. Lawrence, ^ cent per pound less. The above were prices to members of the association on date specified, for tho following week. EXEUBIT 4. SUGAR AGREEMENT* 1. We, the subscribers to this agreement, hereby covenant and agree for our- selves and with each other to faithfully and honorably perform and carry out tho terms and conditions hereinafter set forth for the regulation and sale of all graded sugars such as ground, extra ground, Paris lumps, cut loaf, grocers' A, standard A and granulated sugars. 2. Scale of minimum advance to be as follows: — Under 15 brls Jc. per ft. 15 brls. and over in one sale fo. " This scale of advance to apply to each grade separately of the above specified sagars, viz. : all graded sugars, such as ground, extra ground, Paris lump, cut loaf, grocers* A, standard A and granulated sugars; (three boxes Paris lump to count as ona barrel.) 3. (a.) Scale of advance to be based upon refiners* prices in Montreal, said prices to be arranged by the President and Vice-President of the Montreal Guild, or such other person or persons as may hereafter be authorized for the purpose by tha Dominion Guild, with the refiners on Saturday morning of each week, and to bo communicated by telegraph by them at guild's^ expanse to tho seorotaries of tho fi04 8UOAS. different local gailds, whose doty it Bhall be to give the information promptly to each party to this agreement, within their respective territories, which on that day, with the advance as per agreement, shall be the selling price for the ensuing week, commencing on that morning, unless there should be change in valae during the week, of which due notice would be given, and in cases where the travellers have not been advised of the price before, orders to be taken at open prices to be charged and invoiced at prices established and ruling at the time. (6.) Off brands may be offered only as buch, and at prices not more than one- eight cent per lb. less than best brands. 4. Guild Terms: — Namely, 60 days, or 1 J per cent, for cash paid within 15 days, or 1 per cent, within 30 days. 5. No net cash prices to be quoted. 6. Scale of advance not to apply to transactions between parties to this agree- ment, who are to be allowed to sell to each other on such terms as may be agreed upon. 7. Sales of sugars must not in any case be dated later than first delivery on such sale. 8. Parties to this agreement to have the privilege of selling to buyers in the city of Montreal, and also to buyers west of Montreal, as far as ihe Coteau, at ^c. per lb. less than agreement prices, exclusive of freight, and to be allowed to give ten days' extra time on shipments from Montreal to points west of Toronto. 9. Sellers to be at liberty to prepay or allow buyers cost of freight to competing points only. 10. Parties to this arrangement to have the privilege of delivering sugars to all points where there are merchants who buy such sugars from the manufacturers direct, but no place shall be considered a competing point until after notice from the Secretary of the Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild to that effect has been mailed to the severjil signers of this agreement. 11. Parties to this agreement bind themselves not in any case or instance to jsell, or allow their travellers to sell or offer to sell, other kinds of sugar or other goods in connection with sugars covered by this agreement at lower prices as an inducement for parties to purchase those sugars. 12. And we, each of us, hereby pledge our honor as merchants, that wo will ourselves carry out this agreement faithfully, in spirit as well as in letter, and insist upon its being strictly a^^hered to by every person in our employ. 13. Should we hereafter desire to withdraw from this agreement, we further pledge ourselves not to do so without giving two months' written notice of our inten- tion, addreseed to the Secietary of the Board of Trade, of the city of Toronto, who ^ill be the custodian of this document. EXHIBIT 5. (^Telegram) MoKCTOK, N.B., 31stDecember, 1887. Your telegram received after two yesterday. For week'y shipment, January ar;d February, in all five hundred granulated, seven one half ; une thousand yellows perhaps shade off color, ninety-three ; six three-eighth for Montreal. Usual terms,, with two and half discount if guild consents. MONCTON SUGAR EEFINING COMPANY. XiOHTBouND, Ralston & Co. snoAB. 5(M^ EXHIBIT 6. MoNCTON, N.B., 3rd January, 1888. Will ship as reqaesited if you accept our drafts for all shipments without the two «nd half discount until guild consents. Wire reply. MONCrON SUGAR EBPINING COMPANY. LlQHTBOUND, EaLSTON & Co. EXHIBIT 7. CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS OF THE WHOLESALE GROCERS' ASSO- CIATION OF MONTREAL. {Adopted ^ih January, 1884.) PREAMBLE. The necessity of co-operation and the benefits to be derived from reciprocal in- terchange of opinions and uniformity in the customs and usuages of merchants, have induced the subscribers to associate themselves together ior the purpose of promot- ing by all legitimate means the advancement and prosperity of the grocery interests, and turther: To enforce the principles of jasiice and equity in all business transac- tions ; to regulate, as far as practicable, the prices, termt* of credit, and discounts of the trade, to facilitate the speedy adjustment of all commercial disputes ; and by con- certed action to protect the interests of the members of the association against the unfair discrimination in regard to foreign or local freight rates, adverse legislative enactments, or any other obstacles that may interfere with the success of their re- spective interests. Having these objects in view, we therefore agree to be governed by such rules atd by-laws as may Irom time to time be adopted by the *' Wholesale Grocers' Asso- ciation " of Montreal. Constitution and By laws. article i. The ofiScial title of this corporation ehali be the " Wholesale Grocers* Associa- tion " of Montreal. ARTICLE II. Any firm in the Province of Quebec and Eastern Ontario, whose avocation is directly connected with the importation, manufacture or distribution of groceries^ teas and tobaccos at wholesale, may be admitted to membershin in this association upon being duly elected in the manner prescribed by the by-laws. ARTICLE III. Any firm wishing to become a member of this association shall make application to the Executive Committee, who, if they approve, shall report the application at the next regular meeting, and, upon ballot, such applicant shall become a member, unless five ballots are in the negative ; but no rejected applicant shall be eligible to membership for at least six months after rejection. ARTICLE IV. Every firm becoming a member of this association shall subscribe to the by-laws pay to the treasurer ten dollars as an initiation fee, and all assessments that may b& "506 BUQ&.K. voted by the association to meet expenses. When sach assessment is made it shall ba considered due promptly. ARTICLE y. The officers of the association shall consist of a president, vice-president, honor- ary secretary-treasarer, and three directors, who shall constitute the executive com- mittee. The officers shall be elected by ballot at the first regular meeting after the adop- tion of the by-laws, and annually thereafter on the third Monday of December. Vacancies may be filled at any regular meeting. The official term of all officers shall commence on the Monday succeeding their election. ARTICLE VI The executive committee shall appoint a paid secretary, if necessary, and fix his salary; shall provide rooms for the association; shall supervise all purchases, audit bills and direct payment ot same, ARTICLE VII. There shall be held an annually meeting of the association on the third Monday of December for the choice of c fficers and the transaction of other business at such place as the executive committee may direct. Notice of such meeting shall bo signed by the secretary, sent to each firm, and published in at least two Montreal daily papers five days before the time fixed tor the meeting. ARTICLE VIII. Eegular meetings of the association shall be held on the third Monday of every month, and at such other times as the executive committee may direct; and the sec- retary shall call special meetings on the written application of five firms of the asso- <5ialion, ARTICLE IX. Firms having more than one partner members of the association shall be enti- tled to only one vote at any meeting. ARTICLE X. At the meeting of the executive committee three shall constitute a quorum, and at meetings of the association nine firms shall form a quorum. ARTICLE XI. The president shall preside at all meetings if present, in his absence the vice- presidect; both being absent, a chairman shall be elected from those present. ARTICLE XII. The secretary shall keep a record of all meetings, conduct all correspondence tinder direction of the executive committee, keep a list of the members, notify all committees of their appointments and furnish the chairman of committees with a copy of the vote under which they were appointed, and when requested shall act as secretary to any committee. ARTICLE XIII. The treasurer shall have charge of all moneys of the association, collect all assessments, pay all bills approved by the executive committee, and report at the annual meeting or oftener, it require! by the executive committee, and shall deposit all moneys in one of the chartered banks of the city in the name of the Wholesale Grocers' Association, subject to cheques signed by the treasurer aud countersigned. by the president or vioe-presidont. tUOAR. 50T ARTICLE XIV. There shall be a committee of arbitration of five members, elected by ballot at the annual meeting, to whom all qaestions of ditference and dispate that may arise, and all complaints of members shall be referred : three to form a qaoram. ABTICLE XV. There shall be a committee of three elected by ballot at the annual meeting^ to serve for one year, whose duty it shall be to revise and fix lowest selling pricee oa any article or articles that may be unanimouHly agreed upon by the association, and whenever a change takes place on the manufa ;turer or producer's regular price list, it shall be their duty to notify every member of this a^sociaiion of such price in any manner they may think best. ARTICLE XVI. Any firm or individual belonging to this a-jsooiation, who shall sell the articles stipulated, or allow them to be eoid, tor less than the prices fixed by the committee, shall be reported to the committee of arbitration, and upon coQvictioa of that fact to the satisfaction of the committee, said member shall be expelled from the association by a majority ot the votes at any regular meeting, a vote of censure shall be placed upon the records, and reported to all the manufacturers of the article in question. ARTICLE XVII. A.ny member feeling that he has cause for complaint against any other member, shall state his case in writing and present it to the cojtimittee of arbitration, who shall then notify the party complained of, giving the charges, and request both parties to appear before them ; after hearing the case the committee shall make their decision in writing, which shall be binding on both parties, and the case settled oa their decision. ARTICLE xvin. Any proposed alteration or amendment to these by-laws shall be offered at a regular meeting, bat not acted upon until the next regular meeting, when the votes of two-thirds of the members presont shall be necessary to make a change. At the end of the above there are printed the following eight RESOLUTIONS. * {Adopted *lth January, 1884.) 1. Resolved, that it is the wish of the association to unite and co-operate with all organizations of a similar character throughout the Dominion. 2. Resolved, that we, each one of us, hereby pledge our honor as merchants, and agree with each other, that we will oarcielves carry out faithfully all agreements with the association in spirit as well as in letter, and insist upon its being rigidly adhered to by every person in our employ. 3. Resolved, that should we hereafter desire to withdraw from any agreemecfe that may have been entered into, we further pledge ourselves not to do so without giving two months' written notice of our intention, addressed to the honorary secre- tary, who will be the custodian of all documents drawn out in the interests of mem- bers of the association. 4. Resolved, that no reported violation of any agreement shall be considered as such until it has been investigated by the arbitration committee. 5. ^Resolved, that a copy of each agreement signed by members shall be handed to them, the original to be deposited with the honorary secretary as provided therein, 6. Resolved, that the members of this association shall be in honor bound to keep strictly confidential all discussions and transactions of the association when ia executive bession. 508 WATCHES. T. Resolved, that all debates shall be limited to ten minates, unless by permls- Bion, and that no member shall be allowed to speak more than twice on any one question at the same meeting, without the consent of the majarity present. 8. Resolved, that the rules governing the proceedings of this association shall be subject to Parliamentary usage. EXHIBIT 8. WATCH JOBBERS' ASSOCIATION. February 20th, 1888. A special general meeting of the association will be held on Thursday, 1st of Harch, at 11 a.m. in the secretary's office, Toronto, for the purpose of considering what action, if any, shall be taken with relation to the following telegram from Jas. H. Hoyes, secretary of the National Association of Jobbers in American watches: — (^Telegram.) ** We have adopted the following new rule and recommend that your association take the same action : ' No jobber shall be allowed to sell any American movements without cases ; at least as many cases of same kind as movements must be sold in each bill, and also to consider other matters pertaining to the watch case business.' " By order. EDGAR A. WILLS, Secretary. EXHIBIT 9a. CONSTITUTION AND BY-LA.WS OF THE CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF JOBBERS IN AMERICAN WATCHES. (As amended at the annual meeting, January, 1888.) PREAMBLE. We jobbers in American watches do hereby form an association for the purpose of fluslaining prices on American movements and silver oases, and furthering the general interests of Canadian jobbers in American watches. By-Laws. abticle viii. Section 1. — Application for membership in this association shall be made to the secretary on the printed form to be supplied by him, accompanied by a draft for $50, which amoant shall be returned to applicant if he is not accepted. Section 2. — An applicant for membership must be possessed of a good moral char- acter, and must make affidavit — (a.) That he is engaged or about to engage, legitimately, in the wholesale watch businesB. (6.) That he will make a first p archase of not less than $2,000 worth of com- bination goods. (c.) That he will not use the goods so purchased in any way to defeat the cxiffeesed objects of the association, as set forth in the constitution and by-laws. WATCHES. 6Q9 Sjotion 3, — The annnal dues of the association shall be $25, payable in advance on 1st Febraary, dae notice being sent to each member of the association by the secretary as to time of payment. ARTICLE IX. Each and every member of the association convicted of a violation of the con- stitution or by-laws, shall forfeit to the association the sam of $500 and shall be expelled from membership ; and that each member be required to sign an agreement embodying this by-law. ARTICLE X. Section 3. — It is farther understood that the members of this association will not deliver gold filled, silver and nickel watch cases, or American movements npoa consignment, nor date bills ahead, nor give presents to any firm or employee of any firm in lieu of special term* of diocoaut, nor in ary other manner violate the true intent of the constitution and the by-laws, nor in any way defeat the expressed objects of this association. Section 4.— The members of this association agree that they will dismiss any salesman who, after full instructions, violates any of the provisions of the bylaws of this association, or of the contracts entered into by its members, and will not employ any salesman who has been dismissed from the employ of any jobber for this cause. Section 5. — No member of this association shall sell to other members of the same, any combination goods at a less profit than 5 per cent, advance upon the net cash cost laid down in Canada. AiUnCLS XI. It shall be deemed a violation of contract if any of the members of this associa- tion shall purchase gold filled, silver and nickel watch cases other than those manufac- tured by members of the American Watch Case Afanufactarers' Association and the American Watch Case Company of Toronto, or shall purchase movements manufac- tured by other companies than those in co operation with this association, or who shall sell silver cases or watch movements at lower prices than provided in article nine, section one, of by-laws. ARTICLK Xn. No members of the Canadian Association of Jobbers shall retail American watches listed as combination goods at a less profit than 25 per cent, advance on the net cask price from jobber to retailer. ARTICLE XIII. Where any two members of this association shall make any charge in writings against a member of violating the constitution, by-laws or rules of the association, it shall be the duty of the board of directors to require from the accused a denial ia writing, by statutory declaration or other mode of legal affirmation, or an assent to the same in writing, and in the event of any accused member either refusing or neglecting to give such verified written denial or assent to the charge for the space of thirty days after the said request for the same, it will be assumed as an acknowledgment of the correctness of the charge made, and the member so found to have violated the constitution, rules or by-laws as aforesaid, shall be deemed in default. And it shall thereupon be the duty of the directors to suspend or expel him from the association and such expelled member shall forfeit all claims on any funds of the association. BIO WATCHES. EXHIBIT 9b. ELGIN NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY. Chicago, 19th November, 1885* DsAR Sir, — We are in receipt of your favor of the 17th inst. enclosing numbers of No. 13 movement for rebate, also your order for movements which you wish us to forward. You are doubtless aware of the formation of the Canadian Association of Jobbers in American watches, and also that this company is co-operating with that association which prohibits our continuing business relations with you from the fact that you are not a member of that association. We have no jurisdiction as to who shall constitute its members. We are advised of its members acd your name is not included, therefore we must Bay that we cannot allow the rebate you refer to nor fill your order for movements. Our explanation to you may seem short and perhaps strictly to the point, but we cannot give an extended explanation, from the fact that the organizing of that associ- ation there as well as the aseociation in the United States precludes our saying other than that we do cooperate strictly with both associations and we must abide by the. lesolntions of that co-operation. Yours truly, SLGIN NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY.* John M. Cuttbr., Mr. Charles Stark, 52 Church Street, Toronto, Ont. EXHIBIT 96|. ELGIN NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY. Chicago, 16th January, 1887: Chas. Stabk, Esq., Toronto, Ont. ' Dear Sib, — Replying to yours of the 14th inst, would say that it would be- impossible foi^ us to accept from anyone an order for 5,000 movements to be specially engraved from the fact that we are un.ible at the present time to produce in sufficient quantities to supply the demand. Considering your yjroposition from other stand- points, that we should manufacture this line of movements for your account to be shipped through the jobbers simply to conform with the regulations of the Jobbers' Association, you greatly misjudge us if you think we would conduct our business in a manner which necessitates the action being kept very quiet and confidential. We agreed to co-operate with the Jobbers' Association and have in every instance lived np to our pledges of co operation, and we fully believe all our customers can vouch for our adherence strictly to our pledges and we fail to appreciate your inferences pertaining to a quiet and confidential business. Yours truly, ELGIN NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY, John M. Cuttbr. EXHIBIT 9c. Verbatim Copy of Exhibit 10. WATCHES. 611 EXHIBIT 9^. BOBBINS, APPLETON & CO., Agents American Watch Co., Waltham, Mass., 403 Washington Street, Boston, 12th January, 1888* Mr. Chas. Stark, Toronto, Ont. DsarSir, — Yours of the 9th inst,, in regard to special named movements, has been referred to us for reply. We should be pleased to make the same for you, but as we are unable to sell yoa direct it would have to be done through some jobber who is a member of the Canadian Association, and as we .deal with the following houses in Toronto we would respect- fully refer you to any of them : Messrs. P. W. Ellis & Co., Lee & Chillas, Samuel Prenkel, the Goldsmith Co , Edmund Schemer. Trusting that we shall soon hear from you in regard to the same. We remain yours truly, EOBBINS, APPLETON & CO., Hamden. EXHIBIT 9e. Verbatim Copy of Exhibii 8. EXHIBIT 10. CONTEACT BETWEEN THE CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OP JOBBERS IN" AMEEICAN WATCHES AND THE ELGIN NATIONAL WATCH COM- PANY. Toronto, Ont., , 1884. In consideration of having received jobbers' terms from the Elgin National Watch Company upon the goods of its manufacture, and wishing to deal equitably toward said company, and all who may be concerned as jobbers in the goods thereof, we, the undersigned, do agree with said company, that we will not, directly nor indirectly, under any circumstacces, sell or cause to be sold any goods of said com- pany's manufacture, to any person or persons (meaning, also, any association or associations, corporation or corporations), save only those who may be recognized as jobbers by the Elgin National Watch Company (such recognition by said company being first obtained, and a contract similar to this being first executed by the party so recognized), at a better rate than the four months' credit prices stated in the then current price list published by said company, nor up">n any better terms than a dis- count from said list of six (6) per cent, for ca^h within ten (10) days from date of invoice, or five (6) per cent lor cash within thirty (30) days, or three (3) per cent, for cash within sixty (60) days. The said company shall have the right, at any time hereafter, to diminish the rate or discount herein above indicated, or, should the interests of the trade make it necessary to do so, may increase said rate or discount, giving notice to the jobbers supplied by the company of any such change, which notice the undersigned will always observe in good faith. And in case we shall hereafter deviate from or trans- gress the rule aforesaid, under and subject to which the purchase from said company has been made, we authorize said company to strike our name off the jobbers' list of said company, and give notice to any or all its customers or jobbers of such action being taken by said company, and in case said company shall be of the opinion, at any time hereafter that a wilful breach or violation of this agreement by us has been 512 WATCHES. made, we farther agree to surrender to said company, its representatives or assigns* on demand, any of the goods of said company's manufacture which may then he in our hands; provided, that if such goods shall then have been paid for by us, such demand therefor shall be accompanied by a tender to us of the price thereof, not exceeding the then current prices of said company to jobbers for like goods; or, said company may immediately direct the transfer by us of such goods to any dealer or dealers in its goods who may be selected by said company, on the terms of our being paid therefor the then current price of said company to jobbers for like goods. And we do hereby agree that no price list of Elgin watch movements shall be published by us to retailers, that will give rates lower than those established by said company on a four months' credit, leaving it optional whether any such list make provision for cash discounts or not; and io all sales to retailers the goods herein referred to shall be billed diatinctly and separately, that is, the items thereof to bd apart from any other goods, and at not less than the rate before described ; the dis- count for cash to be made not in the billed prices, but only at the time of payment. This agreement shall apply without limit or reservation, not only to the goods of said Elgin National Watch Company heretofore procured, or which may hereafter be procured by us from eaid company, but also to such goods of said company as have come or may come to us from any other person or persons, and all the goods of said company which shall, at any time, come into our hands shall be considered as being received by us subject to the provisions of this contract. Should any name or names be hereafter, at any time, stricken by the Elgin National Watch Company from its jobbers' list, we will, on notice of the fact, immediately cease to treat the person or persons whose name or names shall bo ^ricken off as being entitled to jobbers' prices on the goods of said company. It is also understood that the said Elgin National Watch Company shall be at liberty to abrogate this contract, and enter upon a different course for the distribution and sale of its goods; provided, however, that before such abrogation, and before entering upon such different course for distribution and sale, said company shall give the undersigned four months' notice. Witness our hands and seals this day of , A.D. 18 . [SBAL.] Accepted and assented to by EDGIiN NATIONAL WATCH CO., By T. M. Av«EY, President EXHIBIT 11a. Quebec, 9th March, 1888. Clarki Wallace, Esq., M. P., House op Commons, Ottawa- Dear Sib, — We beg to enclose for the consideration of the Committee over which yon preside, a petition on the subject of the sugar combine signed, we believe, by «very firm of any importance interested in the sugar trade of the city and vicinity, with the exception of course of the combiners themselves. As the only wholesale dealers here, outside of the combine, we fully endorse every word of the petition, and we earnestly hope that the deliberations of your Committee may re»ult in restoring liberty of action to all. We have the honor to be your obedient servants, A. JOSEPH & SONS. snoAB. 513 EXHIBIT 11, Sec.b. To the Committee on Combines, Ottawa, The undersigned retail rrocera and others interested in the sugar trade in Quebec city and vicinity respectfully represent : That a combination exists among the wholesale dealers in sugar to keep up prices and to impose certain conditions of sale ; That the sugar refiners are virtually members of this combination since they refuse to sell sugar to those outside of it except on payment of a much higher price than that charged to combiners ; That the combination exists solely as a result of the combined action of refinera and dealers, as without it the combination could not exist; That such combinations are very injurious to trade and to the country generally by unjustly increasing the cost of a necessarj- article of daily consumption, by inter- fering with private enterprise and in many other ways ; That many of the present members of the combination, especially in Quebec, have openly expressed themselves as opposed in principle to this and to all combina- tions, and have only been forced to join it by the action of the refiners ; Wherelore your petitioners respectfully represent that such measures should be taken as to render combinations of the kind complained of either illegal or at least impracticable. Wherefore your petitioners will ever humbly pray. Quebec, 7th March, 1888. N. Rioux & CJo. Chas. S. Riverin. Turcotte & Provost. Jos. G. Drolet. Leclerc & Letellier. Jean Lemelin. Ant. Blondeau. M. Bojce & Son. F. Parent Wm. Kennedy. Pierre Cote. A. Grenier. Chas. Martel. B, Gagnon. David Watters. J. A. Moisan. Leon Gaboury. P. Johnston. W. Mc William. Jas. McCone. R. W infield. N. Binet. G. & C. Hossack. A. Watters. M, Tibaudeau. CrSteau & Frere. Toussaint & Cie. Alphonse Chouinard. Oct. Berube, Alexander Grant. Wm. Tracey. Emilien Angers. Jean Turcotte. Paquet & Potvin. Arthur Drolet. N. Drolet & Cie. Prs. Auger. Joseph L'Herault. A Barry. A. A. Cantin, Vve. Oct. LaRae. J. Theop. St. Laurent. Edouard Talbot. V. Juneau. Moisan & Fils. John McCloskey, Louis Nadeau. Jos. D. Marie r. G. W. Pelletier. Bvariste Drouin. John Bryson. J. B. C. Letellier. Pierre Richard. John O'Donnell. Sem. P. Brousseau. George Lemelin. Dion & F;ere. Timothy Coveny. W. H. Walsh. Nap. Moisan. Edward Coveny. Fr. Gingras. Isidore Voyer. Pierre Blondeau. Gmer Lamontagne. T. S. Hethrington. J. O. Gauvin. George Drolet. A. Parent. L. Blais. P. O. Pouliot. O. Vocelle. Chas. A. Cote. 3—33 514 suaAB. EXHIBIT 12. To tJie Honorable the Chairman and Committee on Combinations of the House of Comr- mon&f assembled: The petition of the andersigned respectfully represents : That your subscribers, the office bearers and committee of management of the Grocers' Association of Montreal, desire to be heard before your committee, on the question of the sugar combination which at present exists between certain refiners throughout the Dominion and the Wholesale Grrocers' Guild. That we desire to lay before your Honorable Committee the following resolution unanimously carried at the regular monthly meeting of our association, held on the 6th October last. Besolved: That this meeting of the Grocers' Association of Montreal desires to record its protest against the unjust combination which at present exists belwaen the sugar refiners and the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, and that the executive com- mittee of this association be requested to take the matter up at once and endeavor to secure a satisfactory and feasible arrangement with the sugar refiners. That your subscribers have not been able to secure such satisfactory and feasible arrangements with the sugar refiners. That ydur subscribers represent some hundreds of retail grocers engaged in tho trade in the city of Montreal, the commercial metropolis of the Dominion. Wherefore, your subscribers would respectfully request that your Honorable Committee will allow them an opportunity to state their views and their grievances on tfhis question before your Committee at the earliest possible moment. The whole respectfully submitted. THOMAS GAUTHIBE, President. ALEX. D. FEASER, Vice-President, S. D, VALLIBRES, Secretary. E. ELLIOTT, Treasurer. GEOEGE GRAHAM, \ JOHN EOBEETSON, I ^_, , ^ DAVID CEAWFOED, \ ^^"l^^T? ^^ Oommittee ANDRfi DESJ AHDINS, ( ^-^ Management. JOHN JOHNSTON, J EXHIBIT 13. Tc the Honorable the Speaker and Members of the House of Parliament of the Dominion of Canada in Parliament assembled : The petition of the undersigned wholesale and retail grocers and manufaoturers of the city of Sherbrooke, respectfully showeth : — That your petitioners are engaged and have been engaged for years past in the lawful prosecution of their trade and business throughout Canada and have hitherto by the peaceable enjoyment of their rights built up and maintained a large and lucra- tive trade ; That it is and has been essential to the carrying on of the lawful business of your petitioners that they should be enabled to supply to their customers and the publio in general certain lines of merchandise regarded as staples ; That refined sugar is a staple article in the trade and your petitioners have hitherto dealt largely therein ; That there now exists, and for the last ten months has existed, a certain secret aaaoeiation having its headquarters at the city of Toronto, known aa the Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild and composed of a number of wholesale grocers and others who have anlawially joined together and agreed to prevent your petition«ra and all fiUOAB. 515 who refuse to join said society from obtaining refined sagar at current market rates, and have conspired together to induce the manufacturers of refined sugar in Canada to refuse to sell to your petitioners at current market rates ; That the members of said association have unlawfully entered into an agreement with the refiners of sugar throughout Canada whereby the latter refuse to sell to your petitioners granulated or refined sugar of any kind, except at an advance of five-sixteenths of a cent a pound, or about ninety cents per barrel ; That the members of said association are bound together under fines and penal- ties to refuse to sell to your petitioners, except at the aforementioned advance upon current market rates, and have agreed to prevent your petitioners by every means in their power from dealing profitably in refined sugar ; That the rights of your petitioners have been and are being invaded ; That your petitioners have been already subjected to heavy loss by reason of tho naalawful agreement and proceedings of the members of said association or combina- tion, and do still suffer heavy loss and damage thereby in the conduct of their lawful business ; Wherefore your petitioners humbly pray that your honorable body will take steps to protect your petitioners in the peaceable enjoyment of their rights and the lawful prosecution of their business, and that measures be speedily taken to prevent each unlawful agreements and combinations as that above set forth, and to enable your petitioners to obtain and carry on their trade in refined sugar without let or hindrance and at current market rates. And your petitioners, praying relief in the premises, will ever, &c., and have signed: W. H, Fuller & Co. C. H. Fletcher, & Co. Wm. Murray. per B. G. Wiggitt, Atty, John McManus & Co. R. L. Parker & Co. S. Gendron. M. McKechnie. P. Oliver. Heney & Ferguson. F. R. Darche & Son. McDonald Bros. G. C. Harkness. Thos. Cowan. L. H. Gruay, P. Simoneau. B. Murray. EXHIBIT 14. To Joseph H. Maeshall, Esq., M.P., House of Commons. The petition of the undersigned grocers of the city of London, in the county of Middlesex, Humbly Shewxth: — 1. That by a combination and agreement entered intD between the sugar refiners of Canada and the Grocers' Guild — which guild consists of a number of wholesale grocers — the said refiners refuse to sell or dispose of any sugar to any wholesale grocer or dealer in sugar who is not a member of the said guild. 2. That the wholesale grocers who are members of the said guild have, by virtue of the said combination and agreement, exclusive contrDl and monopoly of the sugar market, and sell sugar at such prices as the guild chooses to dictate. 3. That by reason of the said combination and agreement the retail grocers and also the wholesale grocers who are not members of the said guild are prevented from purchasing their sugar direct from the refiners, and are obliged to pay therefor a higher price than formarly, and by reason thereof the price of sugar to the consumer is oonsiderably increased, and a gro^ injustice is done to your petitioners as well as to the general public. Your petitioners therefore pray that you may be pleased to promote such Iegisliir« 516 LABOB. tion in the House of Commons as may be necessary to remedy the said grievances^ and do justice to all parties interested in the sugar trade. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &o., JOHN SCANDRETT, FITZGERALD, SCANDRETT & CO., ELLIOTT BROS. EXHIBIT 15a. Toronto, 3rd March, 1888. N. 0. Wallace, Esq., M. P., Ottawa. My Dear Sir,— I herewith append a copy of a letter I have addressed to Mr. A. H. Blackeby, Secretary Royal Labor Commission. I think that the facts therein set forth are worthy of the consideration of your Select Committee on " Combinations." Tours truly, FREDERIC NICHOLLS. EXHIBIT 156, Canadian Manufacturers' Association, General Secretary's Office, 6 Wellington Street West, Toronto, 3rd March, 1888. Mr. A. H. Blackeby, Secretary Royal Labor Commission, Quebec. Dear Sir, — It was brought to my notice last summer that the bricklayers in Hamilton, belonging to the bricklayers' union, were out on strike, because the city authorities of that city had given employment to a man named Buscombe, in build- ing certain city sewers. The newspapers of Hamilton contained particulars of the matter, and it was shown in them that delegations from the labor organizations had ■waited upon the city council, or upon the appropriate committee thereof, and demanded that the bricklayer Buscombe be discharged. At that time the city authori- ties were anxious to have the bricklayers go to work on the new city hall, a bell tower and waterworks buildings then in process of construction, as it was vjry desirable to have these buildings completed before the weather became unfavorable for outdoor work. As nearly all the bricklayers in Hamilton were union men, it •was the openly declared intention of the labor organizations to force the discharge of the non-union bricklayer Buscombe from' the employ of the city. According to a report published in the Hamilton Spectator, in the latter part of August, at the meeting of the sewer committee of the Board of Aldermen, which had been called to consider this very matter, Mr. D. R. Gibson, representing the bricklayers' union, intimated to the committee that unless the city authorities came to the terms of the union and discharged Buscombe, all union bricklayers who might be then employed on city work would be called out. He said that the feeling in the union against Buscombe was so strong that no union bricklayers would be allowed to work on the new city hall if he was continued in the city's employ. He also said that the advisability of taking this position had been fully considered by the union. Later — in January — the Spectator contained an item to the following effect : "A poor woman named Mrs. Farr, who resides on Robert Street, fell on John Street and broke her arm. It appears that her husband who is an old man and a bricklayer, was debarred when work was plentiful because he was not a union man, and Mrs. Farr has been the mainstay of support of the family through scrubbing and washing ; now, however, she will be laid up for some time, and the family are in distress." I believe that the Royal Labor Commission was holding sessions in Hamilton at the time of this occurrence. The incidents here alluded to obtained considerable publicity, and I have reason LABOR — COAL — UNDERTAKERS. 51T to believe that they were brought to the attention of some of the members of tho Commission, but as far as my information goes, the affairs were never publicly con- sidered by the Commission, although in my opinion they were and are of vital im- portance to the whole country, in that they show that at least two laboring men were deprived of their right to earn their living by their trade through the influence of a labor organization, the offence being that the two men, Buscombe and Farr, did not belong to that organization . Considering these facts, and in the interest of all employers of labor and in de- fence of that right which is so dear to every Canadian — the right to labor and live — I respectfully request that you will lay this letter before the Royal Labor Commission, of which you are the Secretary, and request them to investigate this matter thoroughly. It seems to be one of cruel, unjustifiable and outrageous boycotting ; and Canadian manufacturers aod the public generally are interested in knowing whether Canadians can be deprived of their occupation and their means of earning a living on the dictation of Trades Unions or other labor organizations. If the Com- mission will take this matter up and investigate it, I will be h&ppy to supply the names of some persons living in Hamilton who would be important witnesses. I have the honor to be yours truly, FREDEBIC NICHOLLS, Secretary, EXHIBIT 16. Montreal, Tth March, 1888. Sir, — There is, I believe, a coal combination in this city, of which, I think, Mr* Bvans, of Evans Bros., is the chairman. Now, as I see by the papers you are looking into this matter of •' Coal Combines " in Ottawa, would it not be as well to turn your Attention to this city also. Yours faithfully, A CONSUMER. II. C. Wallace, Esq., M.P., Chairman Trade and Combine Committee, Ottawa. EXHIBIT 17. Toronto, 7th March, 1888. Mr: Wallace. Dear Sir, — I hope you will enquire into the undertakers* ring. It is stronger than the coal ring. You cannot buy goods at any price unless you are a member of the association, and when you apply to the association they will tell you that there is too many in the business now. They have the manufacturers bound not to sell to outsiders. It is a similar Stark case, only we cannot buy 10 cents' worth of any kind of goods. The reform undertakers will furnish you with all particulars if yom. require them. I remain yours, &o., One that wants to start business and cannot get the goods for spot cash. {il8 SUOAK. EXHIBIT 18. MoNTBEAL, 28th October, 18S1. Dear Sir, — Ab members of the Executive Committee of the Grocers' Association of Montreal, we beg to submit for yoar consideration the following statements : — At a meeting of oar association held on Thursday the 6th instant, the following resolution was unanimously adopted : "That this meeting of the Grocers' Association of Montreal, desires to record its protest against the unjust combination which at present exists between the sugar refiners and the Wholesale Grocers* Guild, and that the Executive Committee ot this association be requested to take the matter up at once, and endeavor to secure a satisfactory and feasible arrengement with the sugar refiners. We respectfully beg to supplement the above resolution with the following state- ment of grievances : — We would first premise : That for many years a large majority of the members of our association have handled with pleasure and profit, granulated sugar, the pro- duce of the Canada Sugar Eefinery. That we have no faoit whatever to find with the quality of the sugar supplied by that refinery ; on the contrary, we are. glad to be able to bear testimony to its uniform excellent quality. That we also desire it to be understood that we do not object to a proper scale of duties being placed on the importation into Canada of refined sugars, in order to protect, encourage and fost«r this industry in Canada. That for many years, in fact from its foundation until quite recently, thedoors^ of the Canada Sugar Eefinery were open to all members of the trade, both wholesale and retail, who might be in a position to purchase the quantities fixed upon as a limit by your company, and at the prices fixed upon for such quantities. We therefore object that under the present arrangement which exists betweea the Canada Sugar Eefinery and the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, we are denied thi8> privilege and compelled to pay a certain fixed tribute or profit to certain jobbers and middlemen on this necessary and leading article of our trade. That the present airangement ditcriminates most unfairly against an over- •whelming majority of the retail grocery trade throughout this city and Dominion, inasmuch as it would t-eem to your subscribers quite impossible to draw the line strictly as between a wholesale and retail merchant. That many members of the so-called Wholesale Grocers' Guild, and others who, dnder the present arrangement are receiving their supplies direct from the refinery, are not simply wholesale merchants, manufacturers or jobbery, but are in point of fact largely engaged in a retail family trade. That in consequence of the combination at present existing such parties are «nabled to purcha^se their supplies of granulated and other sugars at lower prices than other members of the retail trade; thereby placing the large majority of the members of our trade at a most serious disadvantage in the legitimate prosecution of their business. That the tax we are compelled to pay jobbers and others, as a profit on refined sugars, is most exorbitant and unwarranted. That the combination exists to the great detriment and injury of consumera^ throughout the Dominion . That while we admit it is a matter with \vhich we have nothing to do, we may be allowed to express the opinion, that the sales of refined sugars manufactured in Canada are not increased or advanced in any way in consequence of the present combination. Wherefore we respectfu lly request that you will be kind^ enough to give this communication your serious consideration, and we trust that an arrangement may be oonsnmmated satisfactorily to all concerned. Yours respectfully, THOMAS GAUTHIEE, Fresident. ALEX. D. FBASBE, Vice President, GEO^GEAII^AM ^^^' } ^^^^^ ^f Executive Committee. GsoEQi A. Pbuhhond, Esq., President Canada Sugar Eefining Co., Montreal. LAB3B. 51^ EXHIBIT 19. Canadian Manufacturers' Association, General Secretary's Office, 6 Wellington Street West, Toronto, 12tt March, 1888. Str, — I append herewith elippiugs frcm the Glohe and Mail lor your perasal. You will notice from the tenor of their criticisms that they have either not reed the letter which I had the honor to tranemit to you, or having read it have deliberately placed a falee construction upon its contents. You will doubtless remember that my letter contained no argument claiming that labor organizations were illegal or ir jurioas, although it did claim that they have no right to deprive any man of bis occupation simply because he declines to contribute to the funds of any trades union or other form of associated labor. As my other letter was addressed to you as chairman of the Select Committee, the garbled statements published in the press could only have been obtained through your agency, and I therefore have to ask you both as a matter of courtesy and as an act of justice to see that the false impression created by the remarks of the Qhbe and Mail is promptly and prominently contradicted. I have the honor to be, si*, your obedient servant, FREDEEIC NICHOLLS, Secretary. 'S. C. Wallace, ESeq., M.P., Chairman Select Committee on Combinattl)ns, House of Commons, Ottawa. CRITICISMS ABOVE RBPBRRBD TO. Mr. Nicholls on Labor Organizations. Mr. Fred. Nicholls, the ubiquitous secretary of the Manufacturers' AssooiatioDy bag written a letter to Mr. Clarke Wallace, chairman of the Committee on Combina^ lions, suggesting that the inquiry should be enlarged so as to embrace labor organl- zatioEs, and arguing that they are as illegal and injurious as the sugar and manii* facturers' combine, Mr. Nicholls forgets that there is no duty on imported labor, and that men are not forced into labor organizations. What gratitude Mr. Nicholla and his party show towards the workingmen ! They have evidently come to tie conclusion that as between labor and protection the parting of the ways has been reached. — Globe . Trades Unions and Combines. Mr. Frederic Nicholls, on behalf o£ the Manufacturers' Association, hais addressed a letter to the Committee on Combines, inviting an investigation into trades unions. Mr. Nicholls thinks a union of workmen to sustain wages is as dangerous ^as a com- bine among manufacturers supported by a high tariff and a boycott to keep up the prices of manufactured articles. In support of his contention he mentions an inci- dent which occurred at Hamilton. A trades union man was required to go on strike, and while out of employment his wife was compelled to take in washing to support the family. — Mail, EXHIBIT 20. A. Moulinettk, 15th March, 1888. Dear Sir, — I enclosed telegrams and letter to Dr. Hickey yesterday in regard to a purchase of a car load of sugsr from the Moncton Sugar Refining Company, You will see that they wanted fifty cents per 100 pounds extra from me because I ■was not a ringer — equal to over $100 on each car load. I have been jobbing a little 530 SUQAB. in Cornwall, but they have destroyed my doing anything more until the combine is broken. I see by yesterday's Gazette that Mr. Drummond states that the only diflf- «renoe was f cent in small lots and J cent in 15 barrel lots. You will see by tele- grams I sent yesterday, care of Dr. Hickey, that they exacted ^ cent per pound «xtra in car lots. I trust we will soon see the end of combine business. Yours sincerely, J. G. SNBTSINGEI?. The Chairman of the Combines Committee, Ottawa. B. (Telegram.^ ■ 26th July, 1887. Ship car sugar immediately to Cornwall. Twenty barrels, No. 580 j balanoo standard granulated. Send invoice here. J. G. SNBTSINGBR. Honcton Sugar Eefinery, Moncton, N.B. C. (^Telegram.) Moncton, N.B., 26th July, 1887. Understood you were. guild when quoting. Cannot ship goods until this is con- sidered, unless you consent to increase of fifty cents on granulated only. Wire your deoisioQ. Sincerely regret misunderstanding. Yoa are aware we have no alternative. MONCTON SUGAR REFINING COMPANY. J. G. Snetsinqeb, Moulinette, Ont. D. (^Telegram.) 26th July, 1887. I want car sugar as agreed. J. G. SNBTSINGBR, Moncton Sugar Refining Company, Moncton, N.B. B. (^Telegram.) MoNOTON, N.B., 27th July, 1887. Will ship oar, owing to misunderstanding. Keep quotations strictly private. MONCTON SUGAR REFINING COMPANY. J. G. Snxtsinqkb, Moulinette, Ont. EXBIBIT 21. A. MoNTRiAL, 23 rd December, 1887. DiAB Sib, •I was very much surprised to-day, when calling at the office of tho BUQAR. 521 ■Canada Sngar RefiniDg Company, to learn that my name was no longer on the list of privileged bayers of the Grocers' Afesocietion. 1 called at your office immediately thereafter to learn the reason, but you were not in. Would you be good enough (without delay) to inform me by whose authority, and for what offence, I am subjected to such treatment without any notification what- ever. Your prompt attention will oblige, Yours truly, WALTER PAUL. Gjo. Hadeill, Esq., Secretary Montreal Board of Trade. / B. MONTREAL BOARD OF TRADE. (Wholesale Grocers' Association.) Montreal, 23rd December, 1887. 5AR Sir, — In leply to yours of yesterday's date enquiring reason of the erasure of yotB name from the list of signers to the sugar agreement, permit me to assure you thvt it is for no reason particular to yoarself, but simply in compliance with the terms >f appended resolution of the Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild, whieli orders fcat the agreement be confined to strictly wholesale houses, acting under which iSsolution the various grocers' associations in the Dominion have removed the names (^ all retailers from the sugar agreement I am, dear sir, yours truly, GEO. HADRILL, Secretary. Walter?aul, Esq., city. The mowing is the resolution above referred to :— C. Reeoltion adopted at meeting Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild, held at Kingston, n 16th November, 1887. *' Besoied, That the sugar combination be cx)n fined to strictly wholesale houses^ and that lo(\l guilds be requested to erase from membership any retail house, a retail house being^nderstood to mean any house selling direct to the consumer, and that & new list be $nt refiners of those who are in the combination." EXHIBIT 22. SYNOPSIS & RULES, REGULATIONS AND AGREEMENTS BNTBRBI> INTO, AlO AT PRESENT IN OPERATION BY THE DOMINION WHOLE- SALE GINGERS' GUILD. Secretary's Office, Toronto, July, 1887. TERMS AND DISCOUNTS. General gro\ries, 4 months' note ; or cash in 16 days less 3 per cent.; or cash in 30 days, less 2 per cent. Sugars, syru\, molasses, also canned goods, such as fruits, vegetables, fish, Ac, (sardines excepted 60 days' note ; or cash in 15 days, less IJ per cent. ; or cash in 30 days, less 1 ^r oent. S22 snoAB. Produce of all kinds, fish of all descriptions, either in barrels, kits, bandies or boxes, net cash. Invoice shall not in any case be dated later than day of shipment. SUGAR AQREEMENT. Scale of minpmum advance: Under 15 brie., | cent per pound; 16 brls. and over in one sale, § cent per pound. This scale of advance to apply to each grade separately of the following specified sugars, viz. : All graded sugars, such as ground, extra ground, Paris lumps, grocers* A, standard A, and 'granulated (three boxes of Paris lumps to count as one barrel). Sellers to be allowed to prepay or allow buyers cost of freight to competing points only. Competing points are as follows : — Province of Ontario. Belleville, Brantford, Hamilton, London, Sarnia, Trenton Berlin, Brockville, Kingston, Ottawa, Toronto, Province of Quebec . Montreal, Quebec. That where granulated or white sugars of any kind are sold to arrive or for future delivery, the sale shall be made at open prices, and shall be invoicet at the price existing at the date of shipment or delivery. Any change in prices, if any, will be made on Saturday of each we k. Any sales made on Saturday before receipt of advice, must be made at open pries. Off brands may be offered only as such, and at prices not more than ; cent less than best brands. No net prices to be quoted. Sales of sugar must not in any case be dated later than first delivev^ on such asale. Parties to this agreement bind themselves not in any case or instace to sell or allow their travellers to sell or offer to sell other kinds of sugar, or othr goods, in connection with sugars covered by this agreement at lower prices, as arinducement for parties to purchase those sugars. To buyers as far west as Coteau, and at all points south of Eiver £. Lawrence the advance on sugars is ^ less than as rated above. Parties to this agreement bind themselves not in any case or instnce to sell or allow their travellers to sell, or offer to sell, directly or indirectly, egars covered by this agreement, to thoee wholesale dealers who have not signed tis agreement, at less than one-half cent Q) advance on the refiners' prices. TOBACCO AGREEMENT. Minimum advance to be 4 cents over manufacturers' prices and xcise. Terms : 4 months, or discount as above. Parties to this agreement to have the privilege of deliverii? to competing points, or allowing differences in freight between place of shipi^nt and nearest ccmpeting point. The following are competing points, viz.; — Province cf Ontario. Belleville, Gollingwood, Lanark, Ottawa, Sarnia, Trenton, Berlin, Deseronto, Lindsay, Pembroke, Stratford Westmeath, Brantford, Guelph, London, Perth, St. Cathon, Mr. Craig, of A. Gunn & Co., said that he was not prepared to make any statement at present, but he had no doubt that at the afternoon meet- ing the Kingston merchants would have arrived at a decision ia the question of signing the tobacco agreement and forming a guild. Mr. Fenwick asked if any combined action had been taken with regard to sugars, and the president explained the matter very fully, and after a general con- versation and an explanation from Mr. Lockerby, of Montreal, as to how the oom- bination was worked in the city of Boston and the New England States, it was agreed that the subject should again bo considered at the afternoon session. Mr. Hendry, ot Brantford, called tho attention of the meeting to the recent tariff changes in raw sugars, an 1 suggested that a deputation should wait on the Minister of Finance. The president requested Mr. Watts to prepare a resolution to that effect for the afternoon meeting. Terms and Discounts. The president announced to the meeting that Messrs. Watts & Co. had with- drawn their reservatiob. Mr. Watts explained his position and stated that he had no doubrt Messrs. Masuret would at once act in unison with them. After much discussion it was moved by Mr. Hebert, seconded by Mr, McPherson, That the present terms of credit and discounts be confirmed. — Carried. The meeting adjourned at 12.30 p.m. Afternoon Session, 3 p.m. Sugar. Mr. Gillard explained that he had been in correspondence with the refiners and he was satisfied that if a large percentage of the trade desired to have a protective arrangement they, the refiners, would assist them. At this stage of the proceedings, Mr. Fenwick, speaking on behalf of the Kingston, Brockville and Trenton mer- chants, announced that they had decided to join the tobacco combination. This announcement was received with applause. On motion, the resolution re teims and credits was reopened in order to allow an expression of opinion from the merchants present who were not parties to it, and - 3-34^ 532 MINUTES. they expressed their approval of it by signing tTie agreement already signed by the western trade. Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Blain, That the wholesale grocers of Kiugston, Belleville, Brockvilie and Trenton having signified their intention to come into the arrangement for the sale of tobaccos at a minimum advance of 3 cents per pound, it is hereby resolved that this arrange- ment, on and after the 10th day of May next, shall be operative over the entire Pro- vinces of Ontario and Quebec, with the exception of th'j city of Montreal. — Carried. From remarks made by Me^-srs, Hebert and Turner it appears that the retail of tobacco in the city of Montreal did not keep the agreement. Moved by Mr. Blain, seconded by Mr. Balfour, That Trenton be added to the list of places to which tobacco may be prepaid* — Carried. Granulated Sugar. Moved by Mr. Turner, seconded by Mr. Watts, That this meeting desires to affirm the principle that sugars should not be sold at 80 nearly cost as they are at present, and to urge that arrangements should at once be entered into by the wholesale grocers of the cities of Montreal, Kingston and the west, under which sugars in quantities of less than 50 barrels should be sold at a uniform minimum advance of say f cent on Montreal refiners' prices per car-load lots, and that a copy of resolution be sent to each of the local guilds for an expression of opinion thereon at the earliest possible date. — Carried. Moved in amendment by Mr. Wilson, seconded by Mr. Mason, That Messrs. the President, Gillard, Watts, Craig and Balfour be a committee to formulate a plan for regulating the price at which granulated sugar shall be soldi. —Amendment lost. The resolution evoked a long and animated discussion, the general opinion being that the local guilds must consider the question before any action can be taken. Meeting adjourned at 6 p.m. Evening Session. "7.45 p.m. Bice. Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Hebert, That inasmuch as rice, the product of Mount Eoyal Mills, has been and is being Bold at unremunerative prices, this meeting recomraetds that the question of fixing a minimum advance on that article of f cent per lb. on mill price, when sold in quantities of -5 bags and under, be considered by the respective guilds at an early date, and their views submitted through their delegates at the next meeting of the Dominion Guild. Eaw Sugar. Moved by Mr. Hendry, seconded by Mr. Blain, That whereas at a meeting of the members of the Dominion Grocers' Guild, held at Kingston, at which the leading wholeeale grocers and importers were represented, the recent changes in the sugar tariff, as submitted by the Hon. the Minister of Finance, were discussed and the proposed increase of duty on raw sugar considered. The unanimous expression of opinion was opposed to the changes of doty. Be it resolved, that the Government be res-pectfully requested to reconsider the tariff submitted respecting raKv sugar, and that the old duties be allowed to remain in force, this meetiag believing that the old tariff, while fully protecting the refiner, will be in the best interest of the consumer. That a copy of this resolution be for>- warded to the Hon. the Minister of Finance. The Grocers' Guild being quite willing to forward a deputation to Ottawa to advocate and support this resolution. After some discussion as to the trading between firms and the pickle agreemen t^ I the president declared the business finished. t GBOCEKS' GUILD. 5S3 Moved by Mr. Blain, seconded by Mr. Wilson, •'' That a vote of thanks be tendered Messrs. Folger Bros, for their kindness in affording the delegates such a pleasant sail on the lake. — Carried. Moved by Mr. Balfour, seconded by Mr. Gillard, That a vote of thanks be tendered Mr. I nee for his able conduct in the chair. —Carried. The meeting then adjourned. WILLIAM. INCE, President. EDGAE A. WILLS, Secretary. GENERAL MEETING Hamilton, 9lh July, 1886. Present : —Montreal, Messrs. Tees and Hebart ; Toronto, Messrs. Ince, Davidson, Lang, Sloan, and Boomer; Brantford, Messrs. Watts and Hendry j Hamilton, Messrs, Gillard, Steele, Brown, Balfour, Stuart, Bristol and Sherling. 12 m. W. Ince president in the chair. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed, fhe president briefly stated the particular reason for his having called the meeting. Arising out of the minutes he referred to the success of the delegation to Ottawa re raw sugars, and that the Ottawa merchants, retail and wholesale, had signed the tobacco agreement. That when in Montreal a short time ago he interviewed Mr. McDonald and was satisfied that he (Mr. McDonald) would support the tobacco agree- ment if not by a formal agreement at least to the utmost ol his ability. He con;- sidered the interview a satisfactory one. Commun (cations. From the Johnston Fluid Beef Co., Moatreai, copy of price list and agreement submitted and approved; from W. D. McLaren, Moatreai, re Cook's Friend Baking Powder ; the terms of sale to retailers to permit a trade discount of 5 per cent, on sales not less in amount than fifty dollars. Rice. The local guilds reported no action taken. Terms and Discounts. The position of the Hamilton merchants was explained by the presidents Moved by Mr. Davidson, seconded by Mr. Habert, That the terms and discounts arranged by the D^mi nion Guild in November, 1885, be adhered to. This resolution started a very warm discussion, and at 1 p.m. — Mr. Gillard moved an adjournment till 2 p.m., and extended, ( n behalf of the Hamilton merchants, a very cordial invitation to the meo ting to lunch at the club. Meeting adjourned. Afternoon Session . Mooting called to order at 2.30 p.m. Communications . Telegram from Kingston explaining absence of delegates ; from Messrs. Light- bound, iJalston & Co., real and orlarei to be filed; from Mr. Masarat, of London, addressed to Mr. Gillard. S3 i MINUTES. Terms and Credits. DiscnssioD resumed. Mr. Steele gave an account of his interview with Mr. Masuret, and after a very- full discussion, and a general expression of opinion that the arrangement should not be disturbed, and the president had consulted with Mr. Stewart, who, in reply to his question " Will you agree to test this matter for three months longer ? " answered, ** I will do my best to get the consent of the other members of my firm to this pro- position." Permission was given to amend the motion before the meeting by adding: — " For three months longer and until an opportunity thereafter for a meeting of the Dominion Guild." The resolution, as amended, was then carried unanimously. Sugars. Mr. Gillard submitted the resolution of the Hamilton, London and Brantford Guilds of 10th May, 1884. The meeting was unanimously of opinion that something should be done imme- diately to remedy the existing unnatisfactor} state of things. After a general conversation, it was Moved by Mr. Hebert, seconded by Mr. Brown, That tbe resolution paesed at the meeting of the Dominion Guild regarding the fixing oi a minimum price on granulated sugars be re-aflBrmed, and that the follow- ing gentlemen be a committee to formulate a scheme for the purpose and wait upon the various refiners to see bow far they will be willing to assist them in the carry- ing out of the same, viz,: — Messrs. Ince, Davidson and A. M. Smith, of Toronto; Messrs. Geo. Watt and E. Hendry, of Brantford ; Mr. Cleghorn, of London; Messrs. Balfour, Stuart and Gillard, of Hamilton ; Messrs. Craig & Kobertson, of Kingston; Messis. Hebert, Chiids and Tees, of Montreal. — Carried. Crpy of Hamilton Resolution of 10 th May, 1884. The large and growing consumpiion of grocers' and standard A. and especially granulated sugar, and the very large amount of capital employed returning no profit, the result of under cutting in prices, it is deemed practicable and advisable to suggest the settling by the Dominion Guild from week to week the prices at which it shall be sold, and it is their opinion that the following would be a fair and reasonable scale of advance on refiners' carload price of the day upon which prices for the ensu- ing week be so determined, viz.: Under ten barrels,^; ten and under forty, f; over forty, sellers' option. Sellers to be at liberty to prepay or allow buyers cost of freight to the neaiebt wholesale market. The following places to be considered distributing points, viz.: Montreal, Kingston, Ottawa, Toronto, CoUingwood, Sarnia, Hamilton, St. Catharines, London, St. Thomas, Chatham, Windsor, Brantford and JBerlin. The committee to meet in the Council Chamber of the Board of Trade, Toronto, Thursday, 16th July, at 8 p.m. Suggestions for the Guidance of the Committee. let. The resolution of the Hamilton, London and Brantford Guild of 10th May, 1884, to be considered a fair basis excepting that places to which parties shall be allowed to prepay freight shall be competing points only, or places to which refiners aell sugars direct 2nd. That in the city of Montreal the merchants shall be allowed to sell at one- eighth less than the fixed price. — Carried. Mr. Gillard, as president of the Hamilton, London and Brantford Guild,, extended to the delegates an invitation to dinner at 7 p.m. The meeting then adjourned. WM. INCB, President. , Secretary. OBOCIBS' GUILD. 535 Toronto, 15th July, 1886. Committee appointed by the Dominion Gnild to prepare an agreement for the bale of granulated acd grocers' A sugars met in the Council Chamber of the Board of Trade this evening at 8 p.m. Present: — Messrs. Inre, Smith, Adams and Davidson, of Toronto ; Messrs. Gillard, Stewart and Balfour, of Hamilton ; Messrs. Watts and Hendry, of Brantford, whea the following scheme was unanimously agreed upon^ GENEfJAL MEETING. ToBONTO, Ist March, 188T. Council Chamber of the Board of Trade. Delegates Present : — Montreal — Messrs. G. W. Childs, president ; W. W. Iiockerby, secretary; C P. Hebert, Ed. St. Denis, Jacob WiUon ; Haroilioo — Messrs, W, H. Gillard, Jchn Gillard, Geo. E. Bristol (Lucas Park), T. H. McPherson, S. Balfour, Alex. Turner, Alex. Harvey ; Kingston — Mr. M. H. Sutherland, representing Messrs. Fenwick, Hendry & Co ; London, Mr. A. Cleghorn ; Belleville— Mr. M. Kolso (Pikeathly & Kelso) ; Brantford — telegram from Mr. Watts stating that he could not attend; Toi onto— Messrs. W. Ince, presideni; H. Blaio, T. W. Lang, W.Sloan, fl» Boomer, W. Warren, T. Kinnear, A. M. Smith, J. J. Davidson, Eckart. Mr. W. Ince in the chair. Election of Officers for 1887. For president — Mr. W. Ince, nominated by Mr. Childs, seconded by Mr. Gillard. Both gentlemen referred to the good tiervice rendered the or^janization and the trade generally by Mr. Ince, and strongly urged him to take office lor another year. The motion was put to the meeting by Mr. Wills and carried nuaoimously, Mr. Ince accepted office upon the express condition that he bo relieved at the expiration of the year. For vice-president — Mr. W. Childs, president of the Montreal Guild, nominated l)y Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Cleghorn. For secretary — Mr. E. A. Wills, nominated by Mr. H. Blain, seconded by Mr, C. P. Hebert. The president, on behalf of the Toronto Guild, cordially welcomed the delegates and invited them to dinner at the Toronto Club at 7.30. After briefly referring to the preliminary document that had to be forwarded to the difi'erent secretaries, bearing on the husj^ar question and the d«ciiability of wome Srompt action being taken to remedy the evils existing in the sale of sugars, eel :' red the meeting in due form for business. Secretary Lockerby, of the Montreal Guild, presented sugar document signed by all but two of the Montreal dealers. Secretary Wills, of the Toronto Guild, signed by all the trade but one house. President Gillard of the Hamilton, London and Brantford Guilds explained the absence of the document and promised to have it signed and forwarded to the secre- tary . He stated that all in Hamilton would t-ign and also in Brantford. Mr. Cleghorn would eee and get the signatures for London. Mr. Sutherland believed that the Kingston merchants would all sign. Wr. Kelso, speaking for his firm, would sign it. The president reported having seen the refiners, he was satisfied that they would cordially assist. Mr. Childs and Mr. Hebert also referred to interviews they had had with Mr. Drummond. Mr. Hebert's was the most recent interview, and he, Mr. Hebert, was perfectly satisfied that the trade could rely on the active co-operation of the refiners. 536 MINUTBS. Mr. Lockerby had interviewed Mr. Harris of the Moneton refinery and they would also bo in accord, and he believed the same could be said of Halifax. Mr. Bristol called the attention of the meeting to the fact that already 87 per «ent. of the trade had signed the docament. The draft sagar agreement was then discussed seriatim. The principal points growing out of the discussion which was a long and most interesting one were the following : — That it would not be well to interfere with any buyer on the lists furnished by the refiners. That the toale of minimum advance should apply to one grade only of the specified sugars, no mixed lots allowed. The question of a uniform advance of ^ per cent, evoked a long debate, but finally the meeting unanimously resolved to adopt the original terms, as suggested in July, 1886. Attention was drawn to the fact of the refiners having rearranged the definition of a car load from 80 barrels to 100 barrels. Off Brands. This clause was retained though the meeting was advised that the refiners would discontinue making a second grade. The sense of the meeting was that it should not be manufactured. The meetirg adjourned at 1 o'clock p.m. for lunch, and renewed its labors at 2.30. The only alterations in the documeot agreed upon at Montreal in July, 1886, «re hereunder indicated by italics, and read as follows : SUGAR AaREEMENT. 1. We, the subscribers to this agreement, hereby covenant and agree for our- selves and with each other to faithfully and honorably perform and carry out the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth for the regulation and sale of all graded sugars such as grouid^ extra ground, Paris lump, cut loaf, grocers' A, standard A and granulated sugars. 2. Scale of minimum advance lo Jbe as follows: — Under 15 barrels ^ cent, 15 barrels and over in one sale f. This scale ofndvance to apply to each grade separately of the ah we specified sugars^ viz, : Alt gradea sugars such as ground, extra growxd, Paris lump, cut loaf, grocers' A, standard A. and qranulated sugars ( Three boxes Paris lump to count as one barrel.) 3. Scale of &dvr.nn'"e to be ba^ed upon refi'iers' price in Montreal for car load quantity, said prices to be arranged by the president and vice-president at the Mon- treal Guild with ihe refiners on Saturday morning of eich week, and to be comma- nicatod by telegrat h by them at guild's expense, to the secretaries of the different guilds, whose duty it stiall be to give the information promptly to each party to this agreement, which on tbat day, with the advance as per agreement, shall be the eelling price for the ensuing week. Commencing on that morning, and in cases where the travellers have not been advised of the price before, orders to be taken at open prices, to be charged and invoiced at prices established and ruling hrthat week. Oflf brands may be offered only as such, and at prices not more than one>eighth cent less than best brands. 4. Guild terms, namely, 60 days or 1^ per cent, for cash paid within 15 days, or 1 per cent, within 30 days. 5. No net cash prices to be quoted. 6. Scale of advance not to apply to transactions between parties to this agree- ment, who are to be allowed to sell to each other on nuoh terms as may be agreed upon, i. Sales of sugars must not in any caeo be dated later than first delivery on such salH. 8. Parties to this agreement to have the privilege of selling to buyers in the city of Montreal, and also to buyers west of Montreal as fir as Cote lu, and all south of the river St. Lawrence, at one-eighth cent less than agreement prices, and to be allowed to give ten 4ays' extra time on sh'pment from Montreal to points west of Toronto. grocers' guild. 537 9. Sellers to be at liberty to prepay or allow buyers cost of freight to compet- ing points only. 10. Any point having a direct buyer from refineries to be considered a compet- i^ point, 1 1. Parties to this agreement bind themselves not in any case or instance to sell, or allow their travellers to sell, or offer to sell, other kinds of sugar or other goods ia connection with sugars covered by this agreement at lower prices as an inducement for paities to purchase those sugars. 12. And we, each one of us, hereby pledge our honor as merchants that we will ourselves carry out this agreement faithfully, in spirit as well as in letter, and in- sist upon its being adhered to by every person in our employ. 13. Should we hereafter desire to withdraw from this agreement, we farther pledge ourselves not to do so without giving two months' written notice of our inten- tion, addressed to the secretary of the Board of Trade, Toronto, who will be the custodian of this document. Adjouenbd Mkkting, Wbdnksdat, 2ncl March, 1887. Present: — Messrs. Ince, Hebert, Sloan, Lockerbv, St. Denis, W. H. Gillard, Bristol, Sutherland. T. Gillard, Childs, Lang, Kelso, Wilson, Harvey, Blain, Boomer, Kinnear, Balfour, WM-ring Killey and Eckardt. President Ince in the chair. Meeting called to order at 10.30, a.m. Business. What is to be asked of the refiners ? After discussing the many important features of the question, the following, in the order named, was decided upon as alike reasonable in the best interests of tlie trade and of the manufacturers : — 1. Would you be willirg to famish prices each Saturday, as mentioned in agree- ment ? 2. If. after the trade has been canvassed and there should be a few who will not join, will you use jour ioflaence, either by porsonal application or in such other way as you may deem best, to induce them to fall into line ? 3. Should theystill re^^ist, and the number who take that course be few, woald you be willing to agree not to sell your goods to them, or if they buy from you, then, that they must pay you iho prices covered by the agreement or the guild figures ? 4. When gelling to retailers, or persons who are not parties to this agreement will you agree not to sell at loss than aasociacion prices and terms ? It was understood, in response to a query raised by a deleajate, that any combina- tion the trade hau, or might have, applied only to the Provinces of Ontuno and Quebec. Moved by Mr. Wilson, seconded by Mr. Davidson, That the following gentlemen be a committee to attend to the carrying oat of the sugar arrangement, aud wait on refiners if found necessary: Messrs. Childs, Kinlock. Hebert, WiUon, Lockerby, Montreal; Gunn, Fenwici^ Kingston; Gillard, Stuart, Hamilton ; Tuos. Davidson, Blain, Warren, Toroato. Tobacco Agreement. Moved by Mr. H. Blain, seconded by Mr. J. J. Davidson, That the trade be allowed the privilege of delivering tobaccos to all points where there are merchants who bay such tobaccos from the manufacturers direct, bat no place shall be so coneideren a competing point until after the notice from the secre- tary of the Dominion Gaild to that effect has been mailed to the several signers to the agreement. Mr, Gillard handed a list of new points to the secretary for ratifioaiion. 538 MINUTES. Pickles. Moved by Mr. W. W. Lockerby, seconded by Mr. H. Blain, That there shall be no restriction on the price at which Crosse & Blackwell'o pickieB sball be nold between the members of the various guilds. Meeting adjourned at 1 p.m. Afternoon Session. Meeting called to order at 3 p.m. President Ince in the chair. Tobacco Agreement, Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Hebert, That the minimum advance on the art'cle of tobaccos be ircreased from 3 to 4 cents per pound, the city of Montreal to bo excepted from the rule, as it is at pre- sent, and a new document to that effect beat once prepared by the president and sent to the respective secretaiies for signature. The change to take effect from a date to be fixed by the secietary of the dominion Guild, and as early as possible after the agreement has been completed, it beingf understood, however, that the new agreement ehall not supersede the existing one unless and until fully executed. —-Carried. Terms and Discounts. Moved by Mr. Harvey, seconded by Mr. W. H, Gillard, That whereas some of the London wholesale grocers have refused to acquiesce ©n the terms and discounts fixed by this guild, and whereas in consequence thereof the grocers who have subscribed to the guild terms are placed at a great disad- Tantage in competing for the western trade, it is hereby resolved, in order to enable the trade to compete for business on level terras with the London houses, that the ioUowing counties bo excepted from the.operation of the rule now in force in respect of terms and discounts, viz. : — Essex, Kent, Elgin, Lambion, Middlesex, Grey, Huron, Bruce, Oxford. Wellington, Perth, Waterloo, Bothwell, and that the trade be privileged (in those counties only) to modify the terms and diaoounts when necessary, to correspond with the terms and discounts allowed by Ix>ndon houses. Moved by Mr. H. Blain, in amendment, seconded by Mr. Alex. Turner, That, while the meeting cordially approves of the present terms and cash dis- counts, it is deemed unadvisable to make such terms and discounts absoluiely bind- ing, in all cases. Moved in amendment to the amendment by Mr. Sloan, seconded by Mr. Childp, That the terms remain as they are until Mesprs. Hebert, Ince, and Wilson try their influence with tbe London merchants, provided that by the Ist ot May they Lave not succeeded in getting the London merchants to sign, the Hamilton, London and Brartford Gcilds may, if they see fit, draw a geographical line to meet ihe case -within which terms of agreement shall not be binding until such time as the London merchants fall in with the agreement. — Carried. MeesrH. Tomer and Gillard, speaking to the meeting, pointed out the great an- noyance the trade in the west suffered from the action of the London merchants in revising to come into the agreement. Messrs. Blain atd Balfour spoke most earnestly on the question. Mr. Blain, speaking for his firm, had no desire for a moment to withdraw from the arrange- ment if confidence could be restored. GROOEBS' GUILD. 539 Messrs. Hebert and Wilson urged the western merchants not to be discouraged ;. they had (ravelled over the same ground in the Province of Quebec, and gradually they were conquering, patience and determined perseverance were having their eflFect. Finally Messrs. Harvey and Gillard withdrew their resolution, and with the understanding that his amendment was to be recorded, Mr. Turner withdrew his. Puring the discussion President Icce left the chair, which was taken by Mr. Childs. Mr. Ince, in an earnest and vigorous speech, contended for the maintenance of the agreement intact, fle fully realized the position of the Hamilton merchants. After a long and exhaustive discussion the amendment to the amendment, which had DOW become the motion before the chair, was carried unanimously. Prepayment of Freight, Mr. Turner read the following extract from the minutes of the Hamilton Guild, at a meeting held on the 27th January. It was also moved by T. H. Mscphereon, seconded by Alex. Turner, That the delegates from the '* Hamilton Guild be instructed on questions relat- ing to freights and discounts, rot to fgree to any teims that do not provide for the non-payment of freight, or for the difference of freights, from any points (except, of course, on tobacco to the various competing points already provided for) and also that they insist upon a uniform rate of discount, with the recMnmendation that to simplify matters, and place disputes and misunderstandings beyond question, a per- centage in all cases be allowed for the unexpired time." — Carried. The census of opinion was that the system was a most unprofitable one to intro- duce ; that it was a growing evil was generally adn.itted ; that it was the duty of each and eveiy wholesale grocer to do all in his power to suppress this miserable feature of the trade, was cordially endorsed by all present. After a cordial vote of thanks to the president for his able conduct in the chair, moved by Mr. Hebert, seconded by Mr. Wilson, The meeting adjourned. WM. INCB, President. BDGAE A. WILLS, Secretary. Freights to competing points. MEETING OF DOMINION GUILD. 2nd March, 1887. By President Ince. Freights to competing points means that a sale is made to a buyer at a coija- petirg point, freight may be paid by the seller to that place* If sale is made to a party at a non-competing point, freight may be paid to nearest competing place, or ■whatever freight the buyer has to pay, ever and above the amount he would have had to pay had he bought in that place may be allowed him. CJcmpeting points are places in which there are buyers from any of the regular sugar refiners. GENEEAL MEETING. Windsor Hotel, Montreal, 20th April, 1887. Presenf .• Hamilton— Messrs. W. H. Gillard, G. Bristol; Bran tford- G. Watts ; Kingston — W. G. Craig, secretary, G. Fenwick ; Brockville — J. Gilmour ; Toronto — W. Ince, president, J. J. Davidson, W. Warren, John Sloan ; Montreal— Messrs. Hebert, Childs, Lockerby and Kinlock. 540 \ IflNUTES. Meeting called to order at 11 a.m. President Ince in the chair. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. Mr. Hebert reported that Montreal had fully signed the tobacco agreement, and therefore the clause excepting the city of Montreal should be eliminated from the agreement. Toe president then took the sense of the meeting as to whether or not the sugar question should be the next order of business ; the majority of the delegates present signifying in favor of the sugar question. Notice of Motion, It was moved by Mr. Lockerby In amendment to fixing a scale of price for the ensuing week, that no traveller shall be allowed to name a price on the article of granulated sugar, but take orders only subject to the association price on the day he received the order, or at the date of receipt of order at the oflfice. The president after allowing some little discussion on this suggestion of Mr, Lockerby's, pointed out that it was desirable that questions of detail should be dis- cussed later on, that it would be impossible at this stage of the proceedings to intro- duce any new plan. Speaking for the Totonto Giild, he felt that however desirable — and he was iree to admit that Mr. Lockerby 's suggestion was a very feasible one — it might appear, still the plan of operation had been well discussed and agreed upon, therefore it would be impossible to amend it without the authority of the different guilds. Mr. Lockerby then consented that his resolution should stand as a notice of motion . Mr. Childs reported the result of several interviews the Montreal Committee had had with Messrs. Drummond and Eimenhorst; the chief difficulty seemed to be with Mr. Elmenhorst. After a lengthy discussion as to the points to be made with the refiners, On motion of Mr. Bristol, seconded by Mr. Sloan, Messrs. Ince and Childs were appointed speakers at the meeting to be held with the refiners at 2.30 p.m. 5Che pros and cons of the question were very fully discussed. He London and Terms and. Credits. The secretary read copies of four letters written by Messrs. Hebert and Wilson to Messrs. Masuret and Escott, from which it appeared that Messrs. Masuret were desirous that a penalty clause should ba adopted. Messrs. Escott & Co. did not reply to Mr. Wilson as the secretary had no word of their having done so. The census of opinion of the metting was certainly not favorable to the recommending the adoption of any such clause. Mr. Gillard pointed out very emphatically the peculiar difficulties under which his firm labored consequent on these houses refusing to come into line. Mr. Hebert urged the one or two Hamilton houses to struggle along a little longer; perhaps, when the sugar agreement came into operation, these houses would fall in with the terms. Finally, the matter was allowed to drop for the present, awaiting the result of the interview with the refiners. The meeting adjourned at 1.30 p.m. Afternoon Session. President looe in the chair ; all the delegates prenent, and, by in vitation : Mr. Drummond, President of the Canada Sagar Eofining Company, Mr. Elmen- vhorat and Mr. Labelle, of the St. Liwrenoa Sugar Hjfining uompaay , Mr. Harris, of the Moncton Sugar Hefinery. grocers' guild. 541 The following telegram wus read by the secretary, from the Nova Scotia Sugar Efcfincry : Halifax, N. S., 15th April, ISST. Are willing to join w;th other refiners in any scheme which may be arranged with ftiirness. Impossible to be in Montre^^l on 20th. EEFINERY. Mr. Inoe, after thanking the refiners for giving the trade the opportunity of meeting them, discussed the various objections that had been raised by the refiners, both by letter, and in conversation with members of the guild. After Messrs. Childsand Gillard bad spoken and Messrs. Drnmmond and Elmen- horst had replied, the refiners withdrew at 5.15 for consultation. At 5 45 they returned and announced to the meeting that they wore prepared, should the pro- posed sugar document be signed by the great majority of their customers, to enforce from all non-signers of the said sugar agreement an advance of one quarter cent, per lb. on all sugars specified in the aforesaid sugar agreement (esclusive of freight), over and above the prices they may give from time to time to the authorized repre- aentatives of the Dominion Guild, the refiners to be furnished with a list of the sub- scribers and also to be promptly notified from time to time if any names are added to, or taken from said list of subscribers. Mr. Drummond said that he would personally wait on Mr. F. Smiih, and Mr. Bimenhorst agreed to see Mr. Lightbound, both gentlemen promising to endeavor to obtain their signatures to the agreement. After some further conversation the refiners withdrew. Tobacco. The secretary read the following resolution of the Kingston Guild : " That the delegates to Montreal be instructed to strongly urge the Dominion Guild to appoint a committee to confer with Mr. McDonald as to the best way of removincj the difficulties existing in the sale of tobacco throughout the district represented by th© Kingston Wholesale Grocers' Association." Mr. Craig explained the position of aflairs, stating that Mr. McDonald was opening up new accounts in Kingston. Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Lockerby, That Messrs. Fenwick, Hebert, Childs and Gilmour be a committee to wait on Mr. McDonald later on in the proceedings. Mr. Childs stated that it had been suggested by Mr. Stewart, Mr. McDonald's agent, that it would be advisable for the Kingston merchants to call on Mr. Mc- Donald in preference to a deputation . Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Gilmour therefore agreed to see Mr. McDonald. Pickles. The president read a communication he had received from the Betail Grocers* Association of Toronto, relative to the proposed increase of duty on imported pickles. Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Davidson, That the duty on pickles of 25 per cent, is considered sufficient, and that any further increase would not be in the interests of the trade, and that a copy of this resolution be sent to the members of Parliament of Montreal, Toronto, Brantford and Hamilton, also that a telegram to this effect be sent to the Minister of Customs. — Carried. Copy of Telegram sent. Dominion Grocers' Guild, now in session, protest against the increased duty asked for by pickle manufacturers. EDGAR A. WILLS, Secretary. Hon. Mackenzie Bowell, Minister of Customs, Ottawa. 542 MINUTES. Sugar Agreement, At the 8ugge8t!on of the chair, Mr. Sloan moved, seconded by Mr. Bristol, That in view of the arrangement made by the sugar refiners, the sugar agree- ment be at once prepared for signature, and that Mr. Wills be, and is hereby instruct- ed to procure the signatures of the trade to same, it being understood that the expenses necessary to the task are to be a charge to the Dominion Guild, and all Daminion Guild expenses to be assessed equally between the four local guilds. Moved by Mr. Childs, seconded by Mr. Bristol, That the sugar agreement do take effect from a date to be named by the seore- tary. Moved by Mr. Davidson, seconded by Mr. Gillard, That the president of the Montreal Guild, or in his absence the ^ce-president of the Montreal Guild, be, and are hereby appointed, a committee to arrange the basis of price, it being understood that during the interval from Saturday to Saturday no advance or decline shall be noticed, unless the said advance or decline of price exceed one-eighth of a cent per pound. Mr. Hebert trusted that now the Hamilton merchants would not seek to enforce a geographical agreement. The meeting then adjourned. CHARLES P. HEBERT, Vice-President. EDGAR A. WILLS, Secretary. GENERAL MEETING. Montreal, 30th June, 1887. 10.30 a.m. Delegates present : — Hamilton — Mr. Macpherson, Mr. Harvey, Mr. Park, Mr. Kitson, Mr. Scott; Kingston — Mr. Fen wick; Brockville — Mr. Gilmour; Queoec — Messrs. Turner and Ross; Montreal— Messrs. Kinlock, Chapeau, Donohue, Hebert, G. A. Childs, Eansome, Turner, Carter, Lookerby, Tees; Toronto — Messrs. Young, Boomer, Eckhardt. Charles P. Hebert in the chair. Minixtes of last meeting read and confirmed. Sugar Agreement. Messrs. Kinlock and Tees reported that they had interviewed Messrs. Light- bound, Ralston & Co., and Messrs. Matheson & Co., who positively refused to join the guild. Mr. Fenwick, on behalf of the Kingston Guild, entered a strong protest against 80 many retailers in the district within the jurisdiction of the Kingston Guild being permitted to sign the sugar agreement. The chairman reminded the meeting that no one was allowed to sign the agree> ment unless the name had been first submitted by one of the refiners. Mr. Penwick entered very fully into the grievances of the guild he represented. The census of opinion was that at present it would not be well for the guild to take any action in this direction. Their first duty was to decide as to the resolutioa to bo t-ubmitted to the icfiners in the afternoon. The chairman bad seen Mr. Drummond, who seemed disposed to favorably entertain the idea of an increase in the advance. After allowing a great deal of discussion, the chairman finally called for a reso- lution, and the following was then submitted : — Moved by Mr. Gilmour, seconded by Mr. Young, That the refiners be asked to refuse to sell white sugars to non-signers of tha wgar agreement. — Carried ananimouttly. grocers' guild. 543 At first the Montreal delegates were disposed to favor a resolution looking foe an increase in the advance from ^ io ^ cent, but finally, after hearing from tho western delegates the resolution was* carried unanimously. Moved by Eichard Turner, of Qaebeo, seconded by J. J. Young, That the scale of prices at which white sugars will be sold in Quebec be on the same basis as in Montreal. — Carried. Mr. Turner expressed his pleasure in beisg present at the meeting, and in response to a hint from the chair, trusted they would have a guild in Quebec shortly. Notice of Motion by Mr. Lockerby. "In amendment to fixing a scale of prices for the ensuing week," that no traveller shall be allowed to name a price on the article of granulated sugar, bat take orders only subject to the association price on the day he received the order, or at the date of receipt of order at the office. Mr. Kitson suggested that the discussion of this question be deferred until tha several local guilds have had an opportunity of considering it. — Approved. Ordered that the resolution ot the Hamilton, London and Brantford Guilds re- lating to the future delivery of tugar be adopted, that the same be printed under the signature of the secretary. Commumcations. From Jardine & Co., St. John, ^fcw Brunswick, addressed to the secretary of the Montreal Graild, asking for information as to the formation of a Grocers' Guild in St. John, N.B. From J. Allen, agent Armour's beef. Copy of same to be furnished to the local guilds for consideration. Secretary reported correspondence with Rathbun Co., Deseronto, as to the to* bacco agreement, and stated that he looked for a favorable reply. Moved by Mr. Tees, seconded by Mr. Boomer, that the secretary prepare for the use of travellers, printed and cordensed synopsis of guild agreements, as they now exist — Carried. Tobacco. Moved by Richard Turner, of Quebec, seconded by J. W. Young, that tbo ad- vance upon 26 caddies lots, McDonald's tobacco, be redcced to three cents, east of Quebec. — Carried. Messrs. the Chairman, Fenwick and McPherson, were appointed the speakwa to address the refiners at 3 p.m. Meeting adjourned at 1 p.m. Adjourned General Meeting, 30th June, 1887. Meeting called to order shortly after 3 p.m. Present : — Messrs Drummond and Watson, Canada Sugar Refining Company Messrs. Elmenhorst and Labatt, St. Liwrence Sugar Refining Company ; Mr. Chaplain, representing the Nova Scotia Refining Company, Mr. Mitchell, representing Moncton Sugar Refining Company. Chas . P . Hebert in the chair. The chairman presented the following resolution, which he stated had been carried unanimously at the morning session of the associaiior., said he had little to tell them ; the refiners were perfectly well acquainted with the annoyance the trade had been subjected to, caused by the action of the two Montreal houses who refutied to sign the agreement, and in his opinion there should be no hesitating on their part as to what course to adopt. Moved by Mr. Gilmour, seconded by Mr. Young, " That the refiners be asked to refuse to sell white sugars to non-signers of the sugar agreement." After the chairman and several of the delegates had spoken to the resolutioo, Mr. Drummond said he considered the resolution as specific enough, but it was a new 544 MINUTES. feature to him ; he had been led to understand from conversations with members of the Montreal Association, that the object of the meeting was to request the manu- facturers to increase the advance, and he desired to be advised as to the reasons for the chanee in front. This wad full explained by several of the delegates. Mr. Drummord pointed out that asking the refiners to refuse absolutelj was a very serious bu8ine^p. Thi8 Htaement was immediately met by the delegates naming several large manu- factun rn in other lines of business who had adopted tbis course. Mr. Elmenboist, of the St. Lawrence, in the course of his remarks, stated that half cent wa8 iiot suffi jient advance, and suggested that tho rebolution should be amended so that the manufacturers might agree to sell to parties at the quarter cent advance, provided those parties entered into obligations not to sell at lees advance than that provided in the guild agreement. Immediately several of the delegates pointed out that they did not want any such arrangement as this; all that the trade asked was that the throe firms named should be put on the same footing as the snb^ribers of the agreement. Mr. Elmenhorst further complained of the amount of raw sugars which were 1>eing imported, especially by the western merchants. This wa« readily explained from the fact that there was a very large demand for low grade sugars which the refiners were not making. Mr. Brummond was of opinion that the importations wore not in excess of last jear. At this point in the proceedings, the secretary read extracts of communications received from the president of the Moncton Su^ar Rjtiaing Company, and the secretEtry of the Nova Scotia Sugar Eefining Company ; both of these companies signifying their willingness to join with other refiners in positively refusing to sell to non-subscribers, JDuriug the discnstion, Mr. Kinlock made the statement which was confirmed by Mr. Tees, that Mr. Lightbound had staled the previous evening that he had enough sugar to lapt him to January, 18H8. Mr. Elmenborht stated that he had reason to know to the contrary and these oontradicting statements created an unpleasant imprresion. Ml-. Carter : — Messrs. Matthewson and Co. were one oi first to sign a combination agreement in the city of Montreal. Mr. Ldckerby: — Lightbound, Ralston & Co. have expressed themselves repeatedly in the past, to tbe knowledge of many delegates present, in favor of some action, looking for a cessation of the sugar trouble. After two hours' discutsion, Mr. Drummond stated that he would much prefer- J that 'ho retolution would be put in another shape, but if, after further consideration, tbe delegates felt that they cou4d not amend tbia resolution, he, speaking on behalf of the Canada Sugar Refining Company was prepared to agree to the conditions of the resolution, and Mr. Drummond, in making this statement pointed out that one of the non-subscribing firms had been a customer of the Canada Refining Company for over thirty years. Mr. Drummond's decision was received with marked satisfaction. The chairman thanked Mr. Drummond for the way in which he had received the request of the trade and that gentleman withdrew. Tho chairman then called upon Mr. Elmenhorst. Tbe president of the St. Lawrence Sugar Refining Company positively refused to agree with the resolution ' of tho guild, and stated that he would not refuse to sell, but that the trade might rest j assured that he would use his best influence, and it was not small, to bring the non<^ | signers into lino ; ho further aiisured the trade that they ooaldrely on his determina- tion to protect their interests. In reply to tho question, if Lightbound Ralston & Co. refuse to come in after you have used your influence with them, will you refuse to sell them ? Mr. Elmenhorst said : '< I will not refuse to sell to any non-subscriber, bat I am on your GRCCERS' GUTLD. 5l5 side." Daring the discussion, Mr. Elmenhorst gave it as his opinion that an advance of i cent was not a suflfioient protection to the trade. At this stage of the proceedings, Mr. Blmenborat's attention was directed to the fact that one of the principal non-signers of the sagar agreomeat was a sabscriber to four or five other combinations, all of which were profitable to him, and therefore their refusal to sign the sugar agreement was not based on principle. Notwithstanding the arguments of the delegates, Mr. Elmenhorst remained firm in his position, which was that the trade must take his word. As might be supposed, there was a general feeling of disappointment at the posi- tion taken by Mr. Elmenhorst, in view of the prompt and decided stand taken by Mr. Drummond. Mr. Elmenhorst and the other representatives having withdrawn, the delegates proceeded to again discuss the resolution presented to the refiners. Finally, after a very heated di^cus3ion, the following was adopted : — Moved by Mr. Gilmour, seconded by Mr. Boomer, Whereas the motion passed at this morning's meeting of the Dominion Guild did not recommend itself to the approval of all the refiners ; Be it resolved, That the refiners be asked to increase the advance on white sugars to non-subscribers to sugar agreement to one cent per pound. The secretary was instructed to wait upon Mr, Elmenhorst with this resolution. This was done, and the secretary reported that Mr. Elmenhorst distinctly refused to be a party to any such agreement, and that he had again reiterated his determination to protect the trade and to use his influence to bring the non-signers into line. The secretary's report was received with marked disapproval. After passing a vote of thanks to the chairman, the meeting adjourned. The delegates left Montreal ieeling that some good had and would be effected, as- a result of the meeting. WM. INCB, President. EDGAJR A. WILLS, Secretary. GENERAL MEETING. Kingston, 16th November, 1887. Delegates present: — London — Messrs. Ford and Masuret; Hamilton — Messrs. Turner, Balfour, Lucas, Gillard, McPherson, Sterling, Stuart j Toronto — Messrs. Ince Blain and Kinnear ; Kingston — Messrs. Fenwick, Eobertson, Craig and McRae Brockville — Mr. Gilmour ; Montreal — Messrs. Childs, Hebert, Lockerby, Kinlock Quebec — Mr Turner. The meeting was called to order at 10.30 a.m., in the ofiSce of the president of the Kingston Guild. Mr. Ince, president, in the chair. The minutes of last meeting were rej^d and confirmed. A communication from the vice-president of the Montreal Guild advising the acceptance of the offer of the refiners that the advance should be one-half cent, was read and the action of Mr Hebert in the premises unanimously confirmed. Mr. Childs, President oi the Montreal Association, piesented copy of a resolution adopted on the 3rd of November, as follows : — " Eesolved that it be a recommendation from this Board to the Dominion Guild that the present sugar agreement be confined to strictly wholesale merchants and therefore that those retailers already on the list be erased therefrom, also that non- signers be permitted to purchase from the refiners at one-quarter cent per pound ad-^ vance for not less than 25 barrels of one brand." Mr. Childs also presented copy of a resolution sent by the Betail Grocers' Asso- ciation of Montreal to Mr. Drummond. 3—35 S46 MINUTES. Mr. Lockerby presented copy of the rules and regulations governing the Boston Wholesale Grocers' Association with a letter from the president of same. Alter allowing considerable latitude of discussion, the president called for a reso- lution on the question. Moved by Mr. Blain, seconded by Mr. Turner, of Hamilton, That the sugar combination be confined to strictly wholesale houses and that local guilds be requested to erase from membership any retail house, a retail house feeing understood to mean any house selling direct to the consumer, and that a new list be sent refiners of those who are in the combination. A long and inlerestirg discussion ensued on this resolution and it was finally adopted. The meeting adjourned at 1.30 p.m. Afternoon Session. — 2 . 30 p.m. The meeting, being called to order, proceeded to discuss the proposal to reduce the advance to be charged non-signers from one-half to one-quarter cent. The proposal was not favorably received, and finally, after a heated discussion, it Was moved by Mr, Turner, of Quebec, seconded by Mr. Sterling, and carried, with the nnderstanding that the delegates were authorized, if they deemed it best, to concede ore-eighth; that is| that the advance to be charged to non-signers by the refiners should bo three-eighths. That the resolution of the Montreal Grocers' Association recommending that an advance of one-quarter of a cent per pound be charged to non-signers over com- bination prices is not satisfactory, and that a deputation be appointed to wait upon the refiners to express the views of this meeting and to make a more favorable ar- rangement in the interests of this guild. The deputation to consist of the following gentlemen : Messrs. Ince, Toronto ; Turner, Quebec ; Childs, Montreal : Gillard, Hamilton ; Fenwick, Kingston. Mr. Blain, in a forcible speech, proposed that the sugar terms given by the wholesale trade as to credit, should be the same as the refiners, and strongly advo- cated fourteen days ret cash. Finally, Moved by Mr. Blain, seconded by Mr. Ford, That the question of a reduction on the sugar terms be referred to the local guilds to consider and report on the same at the next meeting of this guild. — Carried. Mr. Fenwick, president of Kingston Guild, called attention to the distinct un- derstanding as to the admission of parties having wholesale and retail establish- ments. The census of opinion was that any wholesale house having a retail estab- lishment in the same town was morally bound for a proper supervision of the retail branch, and that the whole matter of admission lay entirely in the hands of the local guild in whose territory the party or parties did business. Considerable discussion arose as to the question of off grades. The president reminded the meeting that Toronto, Hamilton, London and ±>rantford had strongly opposed the making of any off grades, but he was of the opinion that refiners mast have an opportunity to meet their competitois. Mr. Craig stated that his firm were hoidtrs of a considerable quantity of Scotch grannlated and that they never considered it as a standard. Moved by Mr. MoPherson, seconded by Mr. Lockerby, That in the opinion ot this meeting Scotch granulated sugar be considered as an off grade and that the question be left in the hands of the delegates appointed to meet the refiners to fix the question definitely. Mr, Lockerby's Notice of Motion. After some discussion it was resolved to adjourn consideration of this matter till next meeting. grocers' guild. 54T Tobaccos. Mr. Childs laid before the meeting the resolation of the Itfontreal Guild re tobacco agreement. He also aflforded very satisfactory information in relation to certain recent decisions of Mr. McDonald. The meeting then proceeded to discuss the suggestions submitted by MontreaL : (I.) Suggestion to allow signers to sell to each other at less than rate fixed by agreement. The census of the meeting was decidedly against alteration of the present system in this respect. (2.) Desirability of requesting all tobacco manufacturers to make the minimum quantity for a sale and terms of credit and discount the same as Mr. McDonald's. Moved by Mr. Gillard, seconded by Mr. Blain, That the " Empire " and " McAlpine " Tobacco Manufacturers be notified that the wholesale dealers in tobacco have agreed not to buy tobaccos in less quantities than 50 caddies, or the equivalent, and request them not to sell to anyone in less than said quantities, in one sale, and also that their terms shall be four months or 3 per cent, for cash. Starch, Mr. W. H. Gillard, president of the Hamilton Guild, announced that he was instructed by the Bdwardsburg and British American Starch Companies to state that they were willing to make an arrangement with the trade for a sale of their goods, and submitted the following resolution : Provided the Edwardsburg and British American Starch Companies sell to the wholesale trade only and make uniform prices and support the wholesale trade in a minimum advance to the retail trade of ^ cent per pound on common laundry, f cent on all others except rice (starch) upon which the advance shall be 1 cent ; they agree not to sell the manufactures of any other starch company, who, upon being asked to join, refuse to do so, upon same terms. Moved by Mr. McPherson, seconded by Mr. Stewart, That the matter be defer- red for further consideration. — Carried. Notice of Motion by Mr. Ford. That prepayment of freight, except on combination goods, be in future discon- tinued by members of the guild. There being no further business, Moved by Mr. Locker by, seconded by Mr. Turner of Hamilton, That a vote of thanks be presentei to the president of the Kingston Guild for the use of his pleasant and comfortable office for the use of this meeting — Carried* The meeting adjourned. President. Secretary. EXHIBIT 24J. Hamilton, 16th March, 1888. Adam Brown, Esq., M.P., Ottawa. Deas Sib, — At a special meeting of the Retail Grocers' Association of Hamilton, held last evening, the enclosed resolution was duly passed, and the secretary instruct- -ed to forward a copy of the same to you and the chairman of the Combine Committee.. Kindly reply as to disposal of the same. Yours truly, EGBERT STEWART, Secretary Hamilton Retail Grocers' Association, 3— 35i 548 GROOERIES— GOAL. The following is resolution above referred to: — Moved by A. Ballentine, 8e?.onded by B. Winnifrith, Whereas a Committee of the House of CommoDs has been appointed to collect information relative to '* combines " and their effect upon trade; and whereas the retail grocers occupy the very important middle position between the wholesale merchant and the consumer of the chief necessaries of life; Whereas Hamilton being one of the principal commercial cities of Ontario, the retail grocers of this city have had particularly favorable opportunitiesf or observ- ing the effect — ** combines " and tlieir influence upon trade ; and whereas we are in possession of information touching the matter in question, which information we are anxious to impart : Therefore, be it resolved that in the event of an invitation being extended to us by the said Parliamentary Committee to appear by represen- tative before it, representatives will be in readiness to appear when called upon, and that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the chairman of the said Parliamentary Committee, and to Adam Brown, Esq., and Alex. McKay, Esq., our city represen- tatives at Ottawa. EXHIBIT 25a. At a meeting of the producers and shippers of anthracite coal held at the Fifth Avenue Hotel in New York, on Wednesday, the 14th day of April, 188fi, Mr. J. J. Albright, acting as chairman, and Mr. W. E. Street, as secretary, the following resoluiion was adopted : — Resolved, That a committee of fifteen be appointed by the Chair, to consider a plan for the business of the comicg year, and submit the same to a meeting of the producers and shippers, to be held at two o'clock. The following were appointed by the chair as such committee: — Messrs. J. J. Albright, Vaillant, Langdon, Holden, Swoyer, Sanderson, Sayre, Dininney, Davis, J. S. Kichards, Slee, Ely, T. M. Richards, J. J. Albright, jun., and Kingman. The meeting then adjourned until 2 o'clock. At the adjourned meeting of the producers and shippers, the committee ot fifteen presented the following resolutions, which had been adopted by the committee as their report : — Resolved, That we adopt the plan of a division of the tonnages among the re- spective interests, upon the basis as adopted in April, 1885. Resolved, That a committee not exceeding four in number, be appointed by each respective interest, to conduct the business for the year from Ist May, 1886, to 1st May, 1887, the committees to vote by interests, and each interest to be entitled to four votes. Resolved, That the stocks on hand 1st May, 1886, shall be fully reported to the general committee, in the same manner as provided by the resolution of last year, and that the stocks so on hand shall constitute a part of the allotment of eaob> interest tor the year. Resolved, That for the year beginning 1st May, 1886, the tonnage be divided among the respective interests in the same percentages as was adopted last year, viz: To the shippers vid Del., L. & W. B. R 30*45 per cent. do do Lehigh Valley R. R 19-40 do do do N. Y., L. B. & W. R. R 2313 do do do Pennsylvania R. R 1*7*63 do do do Phila. and Reading RR 09^39 do 100-00 Resolved, That the general committee appoint a committee of five as an Exe- cutive committee, who shall have full power to regulate prices, allotments, &c., between the meetings of the general committee, subject always to the decisions of the general COAL. 549 Committee, and shall, from time to time, recomniend to the general committee, for vote at their meetings, snch matters as in their jadgment may seem best for the maintenance of prices, allotments, &c. Upon motion, it was Besolvedy That the above report of the committee of 'fifteen be adopted as a whole, by this meeting. Resolved, That each interest appoint its respective committee. The foUowiog persons were then chosen by the shippers as their committee to represent their respective interests during the ensuing year : — Jos. J. Albright, Wm. E Street, G. H. Vaillant, Andrew Langdon, representing coal sent vid N.Y., L. B. & W. R E. ; E. E, Holden, W. R. Storrs, C. M. Sanderson, representing coal sent vid D„ L. & W. R. fJ.; W. H. Sayre, F. C. Dininney, A. G. Yates, A. J. Davis, representing coal sent via Lehigh Valley R. R. ; J. S. Richards, J. D. F. Slee, Jos. Stickney, E. B. Ely, representing coal sent vid Penn. R. R. ; Thos, M. Richards, J. J. Albright, jun., W. L. Kingman, representing coal sent vid Phila. & Reading R. R. Resolved, That the resolutions which have been adopted, be pat into the form of an agreement by the general committee, and the signatures of the various ship- pers and producers be obtained at the earliest possible day. Resolved, That an assessment of five hundred dollars ($500) be made, to be divided among the five initial interests, and that the chairman of each initial line be lequested to collect the funds, and turn them over to the secretary. The meeting then adjourned. J. J. ALBRIGHT, Chairman. W. E. STREET, Secretary. A meeting of the General Committee was then convened ; and, upon motion, it was Resolved^ That Mr. J. J. Albright be chosen as chairman, and Mr. W. E. Street as secretary, for the coming year. Resolved, That we appoint a vice-chairman, to take the place of the chairman in his absence, or at his request ; and that Mr. J. D. F, Slee be appointed vice-chairman Resolved, That the following be appointed as an executive committee, as re- commended by the shippers:— E. R. Holden for the D , L & W. R. R ; W. H. Sayre for the Lehigh Valley R. R ; W. E. Street for the N. Y., L. E. & W. R. R ; Jos. Stickney for toe Penn. R. R.; T. M. Richards for the Phila. k Read. R. R. Adjourned to meet on Thursday, 15th April, at 10 o'clock. B. A meetirg of the Committee on western and interior business was held in New York, on Thursday, 26th May. After a general discussion as to the condition of the trade the committee recommend That the present prices be continued for the month of June, except that the price of grate tize be advanced to the same price as charged tor egg size. Tbey farther recommend That all sales be made with the distinct anderstanding that the delivery shall be made during the month of June. Adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, New York, on Wednesday, 29th. June, ai 11 o'clock, am. W. B. STREET, Secretary, A meeting of the Western Anthracite Cjumittee was held in New York, on Thursday, 28th July. After a general discussion as to the ooniitioa to the trade, th^ committee recommend 650 COAL. That the present circular prices for Buffalo, Niagara Eiver Bridges, Lake- Ontario ports, and all interior points, be advanced twenty-five cents per gross ton for August delivery. That the present circular prices on cars and from yards for Chicago and other Lake Michigan receiving ports, and also the receiving ports at the head of Lake Superior, be continued for August delivery. That the prices at all points for grate and egg sizes, be twenty- five cents per ton below the prices of stove and chesnut. Adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, New York, on Tuesday, 30th August, at 9 o'clock, a.m. W. E. STEEBT, Secretary, A meeting of the "Western Anthracite Committee was held in New York on WedneHday, 27th October. After a general discussion as to the condition of the trade, the committee recommend That the present circular prices for Buffalo, the Niagara River Bridges, Lake Ontario ports, and all interior points, be advanced thirty cents per gross ton for November delivery. That the prices on cars and from yards for Chicago and other Lake Michigan receiving ports, and also the receiving ports at the head of Lake Superior, be made $6.25 for grate and egg and 66.50 for stove and chestnut, per net ton for November delivery. Adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, New York, on Wednesday, 30th November, at 9 o'clock, a.m. W. E. STREET, Secretary. C. At a meeting of the Western Anthracite Committee, held at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, Thursday, 15th April, 1886, the following were present: Messrs. Holden, Sayre, Davis, Dininney, Albright, Yaillant (by proxy), Langdon, Stickney, Slee, J, S. Richards, Ely, J. J. Albright, jun., Kingman and Street. The secretary read the minutes of the meetings of the 14th, and on motion they were adopted. The following resolutions were then adopted : — Whereas, at the meeting of the joint committee, held 28th April, 1885, the fol- lowing was adopted, viz. : " Resolved, That the coal unsold, in stock and in transit, on the Ist day of May, be included in the distribution provided for, and shall count in the respective allot^ ments ; " and Whereas, it is alleged that certain interests are under the impression that the above resolution was intended to include stocks at all points, as well as Buffalo, and the tonnage reports of stock on hand to the secretary, as of 1st May, 1885, are fltill incomplete ; and Whereas, by resolution adopted at a meeting of this committee yesterday, the stock on hand 1st May, 1886, was in similar way to be charged to the various allot* meota for the fiscal year; and Whereap, it is alleged that with this report of stock on hand, the deficiencies in certain directions fall unjustly upon certain interests ; therefore Resolved, That this whole question be referred to our executive committee, to the end tLat they may hear the statements of those interested, to present their claim* aa above, or for any other deficiency that may have arisen, and that the said execu- tive oommitttee are hereby fully autborisdd to make such adjustment of claimed deficiencies, as shall be just and equitable to all concerned. GOAL. 551 Resolved, That the executive committee report to us at our next regular meeting, a plan for reporting stock on hand, in accordance with the resolution of yesterday, A communication from Mr. Vaillant was read, suggesting the expediency of pooling the whole western tonnage, which was referred to the executive committee. The following rules and regulations were then adopted : Sesolved, That whenever any member of this committee shall be unable to attend a meeting, he shall have the right to appoint, in writing, a substitute who may re- present him at such meeting. Resolved, That any producer of coal who is a party to this agreement, shall bd permitted to attend any of the meetings of this committee. Resolved, That prices shall be made at all places as heretofore, and in addition at all points where any of the companies have agents, and also at all other points whero any members of this committee may request the prices to be made. Resolved, That the prices at Buffalo, Brie and the Niagara Rivar Bridges be th© same, and that they be regarded as the basis for fixing western prices. Resolved, That no coal shall be sold at any point at a price which, with the scheduld freight added, shall place such coal at any other point, at less cost to the purchaser than the established price, at the place to which such coal is destined. Resolved, that no coal shall be sold at the breaker at a price which, with the schedule freight added, shall be less than the price established by this committee for coal at the point of destination, except that any miner of coal represented in th^s committee, may sell to any other party, also represented in this committee, at such prices as may be mutually agreed upon ; and that any violation of this resolntioD be proinptly reported to this committee. The following resolutions relating to prices were then adopted : — Resolved, That the following prices be established to take effect at once and for delivery prior to 1st June. For Buffalo and the Niagara Eiver Bridges on cars, grate, $4 00 per Gross Ton. Bgg 4 GO •* Stove, 4 25 " Chest., 4 25 « For Buffalo, F. 0. B ^,„ Grate, 4 30 " Egg, 4 SO " Stove, 4 55 " Chest., 4 55 " For shipment to Lake Ontario ports, viz. — From Oswego, Fair Haven, Sodus Point, and Charlotte, prices to be seventy (70) cents per gross less than Baffalo, F. O. B. prices, with the understanding that for coal shipped through the Welland CSanal for western points, the prices to the same destination are to be equalized with Baffalo: in other words, that the cost to the purchaser is to be the same as if shipped from Buffalo For Rochester Grate, $3 65 per Gross Ton. Egg, 3 65 " Stove, 3 90 " Chest., 3.0 " Resolved, That the prices on cars for shipment, and in yards to dealers and manutacturers, at Chicago, Milwaukee and JEJacine, whether the coal be received there by rail or lake, be as follows : Grate, 95 60 per Gross Ton, or $5 00 per Net Ton^ Egg, 5 60 « 5 00 " Stove, 5 88 " 5 25 " Chest., 5 ^^8 " 5 25 « Resolved, That a sub-committee of nine be appointed to adjust the prices at ii- terior points in the State of New York, fixing them with some reference to the prices established for controlling points at Buffalo, Bochester [and Syracuse, as near as possible. 552 GOAL. The following were appointed as such sub-committee : — H. S. Holden, J. J. Mc Williams, Thos. Hodgson, T. P. Torrey, J. H. Horton, W. A. Jewett, A. G. Yates, T. Guilford Smith, 0. M. Uuderhill, chairman. Resolved^ That the price of the size known as No. 4 be, at all points, not less than the prioe of stove size, but that it be omitted from the circulars. Resolved, That no coal for municipal purposes or public contracts, for which tenders are advertised, shall be sold at any less rate than the regular car prices in force at time of sale. Resolved, That the prices of coal at ports at the head of Lake Superior, for dis tribution by rail, be submitted to a committee consisting of Messrs. Saunders, Pi*att» J. E. McWilliams, Yates (or a substitute whom he may appoint), and Merri weather* Resolved, That the prices on cars at Toledo, Sandusky, Datroit and Cleveland be one dollar (8 1) per gross ton above the Buffalo prices on cars. Resolved, That a committee consisting of Messrs. Yates, J. J. McWilliams, T. Guilford Smith, E. E McWilliams and Underbill, be appointed to visit Toronto, for the purpose of endeavoring to harmonize the local interests in that city, and to establish the trade upon the basis of the wholesale prices fixed by this board. Resolved, That a committee of five be, and is hereby appointed, for the purpose of taking such action in respect to the trade at Eochester, as will establish and re- fulate the local trade at that city, upon the basis of the wholesale prices established y this board, and that the committee be composed of the following named persons, viz. : Messrs. Yates, T. Guilford Smith, E. F. Holden, Underbill and Torrey. Resolved, That a similar committee of five be, and is hereby appointed for the purpose of taking such action in respect to the trade in Buffalo, and that the com- mittee be composed of the following named persons, viz.: Messrs. Hodgson, J. J. McWilliams, Horton, T G. Smith, and Underbill. Resolved, That the prices for interior points, as submitted by the sub-committee of nine, be and are hereby approved. Adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, New York, on Thursday, April 29th, 188t). • J. J. ALBEIGHT, Chairman, W. E. STEEET, Secretary, At a meeting of the Western Anthracite Joint Committee, held at New York, Wedaesday, 2yth September, 1886, there were present, Messrs. Albright, Holden, Storrs, Sayre, Ely, J. S. Eichards, T.M. Richards, Albright Jun., Underbill, Stickney, Yates, Langdon, Davis, Dininney, Kingman and Street. The minutes of the preceding meeting were read and approved. A communicaiion was presented from the Central New York Coal Dealers* Asso- ciation, relative to the sale of coal by the shippers to J)rivate parties by the oar load, whereupon, on motion, the following resolution was adopted : — Resolved, That the circular prices of coal as established by this committee, shall be held to apply only to sales to dealers regularly established in the business, and to manufacturers for their own consumption ; and that sales to all other parties, at all points, shall be at fifty cents per gross ton above the circular prices. A communication was received from the Grand Eapids Coal Dealers' Association, "whereupon, the following was adopted : Resolved, That the Coal Dealers' Association organized at Grand Eapids, Mich., be sustained in all lawful and practical efforts to secure harmony in the trade, and the adoption of reasonable methods, in the prosecution of their business. Statements being made relative to the condition of the local trade in the city of Buffalo, it was Retolved, That a committee of five be appointed to investigate the alleged irregu- larities in the sales to the looal dealers, and to secure the maintenance ot the prices made by this committee. The following committee was appointed by the chair; Messrs. Dininney, Hedstrom, Underbill, T. Guilford Smith and Langdon. COAL. 553 The following resolutions were then adopted : Besclved, That the present circular prices for Buffalo, Niagara River Bridges, Lake Ontario ports, and all interior points (excepting the interior points named below) be advanced twenty-five cents per gross ton for October delivery. Resolved, That the prices on cars and from yards for Chicago and other Lake Michigan receiving ports, and also the receiving ports at the head of Lake Superior, be made S5.50 for grate and egg^ and $5.75 for stove and chestnut, per net ton, for October delivery. The prices at interior points were referred to a committee consisting of Messrs. Storrs, Torrey, tlorton, Uuderhill and Albrigtio, Jan., which committee reported as followB : — Binghampton to Erwins inc. Circalar Book, page 1 fc 2 No advance from September prices. Genesee to Dansvilie '' Coming to So. Livonia " Binghampton to York ' Sayre to K. Waverley • Barton to Oswego ' Attica to Town Line " '' " 3 10 cents advance. Circular Book, page 1 fc 2 ] a u 5 (1 >( 4 (C (( 17 4 18 <( iC 19 i( u 21 i( (C 3 t( (( 4& 5 >i i( 5 C( (1 18 41 tl 34 l( l( 34 (1 <( 47 Livonia to Red Greek " Avon to Attica ' R. 4 P. June, to Alden * Seottsville to BaUvla " Batavia to Attica " Kaplewood to Wyoming " Ail Other interior points advanced 25 cents. Adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, New York, 28th October, 1886, ■At eleven o'clock, a.m. J. J. ALBRIGHT, Ohairman, W. B. STREET, Secretary, A meeting of the miners and producers of anthracite coal, shipping into the ■western and interior markets, was held in New York, on Wednesday, iJ7th April, 188J. A committee was appointed to consider the condition of the coal trade in these markets, and report such recommendations as they should find expedient. This committee, after a general disoussioo of the whole subject, presented the fol- lowing recommendations : That the miners and shippers of anthracite coal into the western and interior markets meet monthly or oftener, as may be advocated, for general conference in relation to matters pertaining to the condition of the trade and such adjustment of competitive relations as may be legitimate and practicable. For the purpose of facilitating such conference, and promoting the ends sought to be attained, it is recommended that a permanent committee of conference be appointed by those now assembled, which committee shall procure and promulgate information respecting the interests of the general trade, and make such recommendations in relation thereto as they shall deem proper. That the organization of this committee of conference be communicated to all the miners and shippers of anthracite coal into the western and interior markets, and that they be invited to co-operate with the committee and conform to its recom- mendations. That it is to be understood that the action of this committee of conference is purely recommendatory, and while urging upon all the desirability of conforming thereto, the committee assumes no authority in the premises, and does not seek to limit the freedom of action of any individual member of the committee or of thoaa to whom these recommendations may come. 554 COAL. That the following prices be recommended : Grate. Bgg. Stove. GheBtnat. ForBofFalo 64 30 $4 40 $4 75 $4 75 Gross tons. " Lake Ontario Ports.... 3 80 3 90 4 25 4 25 " " Rochester 3 90 4 00 4 35 4 35 " " Syracuse 3 65 3 75 4 10 4 10 " " Chicago 5 50 5 50 5 75 6 75 Net tons. " Lake Michigan and Lake Superior re- ceiving Ports 5 50 5 50 5 75 5 75 " « Bast St. Louis 5 75 5 75 6 00 6 00 " That, in adjusting prices for common points beyond Buflfalo, the prices free on board of vessels at that point be taken as a basis, and that there be added thereto the excess of the through rates of freight over the freight charged to Buffalo for free on board delivery. That the prices proposed shall be strictly limited to deliveries for the month of May, and that the sellers will assume no obligations for delivery at these prices after May, and that they will assume no responsibility for inability to procure transporta- tion for the same during that month. Gross Tons. Net Tons. $5 Od $4 ol 5 05 4 51 5 30 4 73 5 30 4 73 5 30 4 73 4 30 3 84 Suspension Bridge, N.T., 1st November, 1887. For the present the prices of Scranton and Wilkesbarre coal will be as follows : On Cars at Buffalo and Bridges for Shipment W. Grate - - . _ - Egg Stove - . - - Small stove ..... Chestnut - - - - Pea Subject to conditions on back of this circular (see below). Prices, free on vessel at Buflfalo and Sodus Point, furnished on application, .AIeo prices for coke, Brier flill, Fairmount, Lehigh and Altona Blacksmith. PIERCE & CO. Conditions of the Sale and Shipment of Goal. Terms Cash. — All accounts not paid on the 10th of the month following ship- ment subject to sight draft. 1. All prices are subject to change without notice, and all deliveries conditioned vpon ability to secure transportation. The ehippers will assume no responsibility, nor will they give any guarantee beyond their ability to secure cars or vessels for shipment. 2. All sales shall be at invoice weights as taken at original points of shipment. Shipments are thereafter in all respects at the risk of purchaser, and no claims for shortage will be entertained. 3. Carb are required to be unloaded in accordance with the rules and regulations of the railroads, and demurrage will be charged for the detention of cars in accotd- ance with whatever rules may be establisheaby the railroads, and in no case will the ■bippers be responsible for such demurrage. 4. All sales subject to strikes and acoidenis at mines. COAL— BANKINa. 555- The Delawabi:, Lackawanna and Wkstebn Eailroad Company, Coal Department, Agency at Oswego, N.Y., let October, 1887. Messrs. Ellas Rogers & Co., Toronto. Gentlemen,— Affairs in the coal regions are in such a etate that I am directed to withdraw all prices. Yours truly, A. G. COOK, AgmU Pennsylvania Coal Company, Buffalo, N.Y., 31st October, 1887. Messrs. Ella.8 Eogebs & Co., Toronto. Dear Sir, — All prices issued by this company for points north and west of mines- are this day withdrawn. New prices will be furnished on application. Yours truly, THOS. HODGSON, Western Superintendent EXHIBIT 26. 56 Church St., Toronto, .7th March, 1888. N. Clarke Wallace, Esq., M,P. My Dear Sir,— While you are looking after the combines please look up the- bankirg combine. I was a member of the Boaid of Trade here when the proposal was icsde to loim theee 6c-called branches conDectcd with various businebsee, and it was this idea oflering opportunities to woik tleee combitee that rushed the mem«^ bership up. The public twigged the idea, and all businets men of any consequence made a rush to get in for fear they would be left out of the ring. The bank officials here have one ring. The coal people have now another. With regard to the banks, as you know their present charters were principally granted when capital was very scarce and extra inducements had to be offered to attiact it from abroad. Their privileges have proved eo valuable that nearly all of them have set aside enormous rests after paying heavy dividends. No one objects to this if legitimately done, but this is not the case. Ever since Mr. King, of the Bank of Montreal, stepped into the New York market, when there was a financial flurry, and made millions for that bank. I am informed by leading bankers in New York city that our banks, when- ever money becomes tight, appear on the scene and make enormous loans on the most insecure atd speculative stocks such as local institutions would not dare do. The result is they draw in every dollar from C'stomers here and many perfectly solvent concernp go to the wall. This has been admitted to me by bank managers here of local offices, and the effect upon their customers lamented. The effect even of one or two large banks doing this produces stringency all round. Now I am quite satisfied that these institutions could not so act if it was not for their deposits and rests or sinking funds. The one they hold in trust for the public and the other for their shareholders, and they are not justified in withdrawing either from tho^ country. You cannot fairly restrict their customers from trading with the United States and allow these institutions to trade there with the earnings of our people made here. The capital of the country is already insufficient without giving to a few master minds the power of bringing the country time and again to the verge of panic. A commission should issue to make a rigid enquiry into these matters, or if sufficient infoimaiion is at hand the Government sbould take early action. 'J he banking section of the Eoaid of Trade here in conncctit n with a similar combire in Montreal run money up or down and make and ruin people as they choose, 'ihis- 656 QLUOOSB— MARINE. should be stopped. Hardly a merchant in the country carries on his basinees with- out dread of being caught in a pretended crisis or a real one caused by the agencies! referred to. This paraiyzas enterprise and renders people fearful of entering intol undertakings which would otherwise be very profitable to the country. I could mention one bank here which holds more American brewers' paper than any institu- tion in the United States, and a considerable part of its capital is used in carrying such institutions in New York alone, so much so that the credit theyggive to people who could not get a discount there is a matter of everyday comment amongst people concerned in the malt and hop trades in New York, The same concern, of course, has not enough money to carry its own customers here and joins in the cry of " tight money," &o., &e. As to the Board of Trade Combine it is iniquitous. Any man who may incur the displeasure of any of these bank noodles is liable to be beg- gared in a day, even though his affairs are on a perfectly sound basis. It is needless lor me to impress upon you the evil effect of this and the necessity which exists of &n immediate remedy. I have written at length as I feel from what I have seen and heard that it is high time a remedy should be applied. As to the coal business — I do not know what Rogers said, but I understand that he arranged first with the producers on the other side not to sell except to this com- bination (then proposed). They came here and organized the combination on the ground that otherwise they could not get coal. Thus this iniquitous affair was car- ried through. I am, dear sir, yours very truiy, J. W. BLAKE. EXHIBIT 27. MoNTBKAL, 17th March, 1888. N.C. Wallace, Esq., M. P., Chairman Committee on Trades Combinations, Ottawa. Sib, — I thought my evidence was quite clear, but apparently it was not specific enough on the matter of glucose. 1 desire, therefore, to say that 1 intended to convej to the committee in answer to questions pui to me, and now affirm, that not one pound of glucose was ever introduced into our works for the purpose of mixing with or adulterating our sugars or syrups. I am, sir, yours truly, GEO. A. DRUMMOND, President Canada Sugar Refining Company (^Limited). EXHIBIT 28. Canadian Marine En«inebr8' Association, 144 Vanault Street, Toronto, 20th March, 1888. Clarke Wallace, Esq., M. P. Dear Sib, — Seeing your name in the public prints in connection with the inves- tigation of the combines throughout the Dominion, I take the liberty of calling your attention to one that goes under the name (I think) of the Owners' Marine Associa- tion. They meet every year before the opening of navigation and issue a tariff of ■wages covering captains, engineers, and in fact down to boys on board of steam vessels, and I am given to believe that there is a penalty of $1,000 attached if any of the owners should pay more than schedule wages. I do not think this is justice, as some men are worth more than others and should therefore get more pay, but the owner if he should even be willing to do so dare not. I cannot send you a copy of their ^by-laws, as they keep themvery close. Enclosed please find copy of our rules, yea MARINE. 66T" will see that we do not mention wages to restrict a man to take as much or a^ little as he may please to accept. If you can do anything with this we should be very happy to Fee it broken up. I might also say that if I can get a tariff of wages for this year I will send it to you . I remain yours, S. S. MALCOHNSON. EXHIBIT 286. JONSTITUTIONOF THBCA.NADIAJi MAEENE BJTGINBERS' ASSOCIATION. EULES. The objects of the Association, In consideration of the great number of persons engaged in the various branches of marine engineering, the growing importance of the trade and the great interests involved therein, it has been deemed desirable to establish a Canadian Marine Engin- eers' Association to watch over and protect the interests and welfare of all concerned ; to diffuse sound and reliable information by the discussion of practical subjects, and generally to elevate and improve the condition of the marine engineer; also to give employers and own«*8 greater facilities for obtaining engineers of undoubted practical experience and ability. This association will give guarded attention to the daily increasing tonnage and dimensions of hull, horse power, and high pressure steam, all of which necessitates that the marine engineer shall be kept scientifically informed on the present, and upon all future improvements in marine engines and boilers. SSOTIOIf I. Constitution, 1. The association to consist of members and honorary members. 2. The officers of this association for the management of its affairs, to be chosen from the members only, are to consist of one president, Ist and 2nd vice-presidents, five members of council, treasurer and one secretary. All members who have filled the office of president of the association to be ex-offieio members of council under the title of past president. SECTION n. Qualification of Members. 1. — Members. — Members to be practical licensed engineers, holding certificates of competency from either the Canadian Board of Steamboat Inspectors, or English Board of Trade, who shall be admitted to membership according to the articles and provisions of this constitution. 2. — Honorary Members. — Honorary members shall be manufacturing engineers, . steamboat inspectors, and such scientific men as the council shall deem eligible. SECTION III. Subscriptions. 1. The fee for admittance shall be two dollars, and the annual subscription one dollar. 2. All subscriptions for the first year to be due with the entrance fee at the time of election, and to be due annually in advance from the recurrence of that date. 65B MARINE. SBOTION IV. Election and Expulsion of Members, 1. Every person admitted to membership in this association must be a licensed engineer holding a license from either the Canadian Board of Steamboat Inspectors, or the English Board of Trade, and be of good moral character. 2. Candidates for membership must be proposed by one member and seconded by another, according to form A in the appendix, and when ballotted for, must receive two-thirds of all the votes cast by all the members present, to gain his election. 3. When the proposed candidate is elected, the secretary shall give him notioe thereof, according to form B, but his name shall not be added to the list of members until he shall have paid his subscription according to article 2, section III. He must also sign the form C in the appendix, and enter into an obligation with the council. 4. Elections to take place at any regular meeting. 5. Each member shali furnish the secretary with his address ; in case of removal, giving immediate notice of same, so that the secretary may have the means of inform- ing such member of special meetings and other important business without loss of time. 6. If any member shall leave his subscription in arrear for more than one year, and shall fail to pay such arrears within three months after a written application has been sent to him by the secretary, his name may be struck off the list of members by the council at any time afterwards. SECTION V. Election of Officers. 1. The annual election of officers to take place at the anniversary meeting, on the second Thursday of January in each year. 2. The president, vice-presidents, council, secretary and treasurer to retire annually, but to be eligible for rC'election. 3. There shall be two auditors elected every year whose duties shall consist in examining the books, receipts and expenditure, for the past year, and at the follow- ing meeting they shall report the result to the members present. SECTION VI. Meetings. 1. The regular meetings shall be held at the offices of the association every Thursday evening at 7.30 p.m. 2. The anniversary meeting of the association shall be held on the second Thursday of January in each year. 3. A special meeting may at any time be called by the council, or at the request of seven members, the president shall direct the secretary to call a special meeting stating the object thereof; at such meetings, members only shall attend. 4. Meetings shall be conducted as far as practicable in the following order : — (1) The chair to be taken at 7 30 p.m. (2) The minutes of the previous meeting to be read and after being confirmed, to be signed by the chairman. The minutes shall include the receipts and disburse- ments since the previous meeting. (3) Reports or communications from the council. (4) Keports from special committees, if any. (5) Election of new members, and at the anniversary meeting, the election of officers. (6) Introduction of new members. (7) Communications approved ot by the council to be read and discussed. 5. No alteration of the rules or by-laws to be made at any but special meetings, nor unless notioe of such alteration has been given at a regular meeting held two MABINI. 559 -weeks previously, a copy of this notice to be sent to each member by post or other- wise. SECTION VII. Communications by Members and Others. All commanicatioDs intended to be read and discussed shall be submitted to the council for approval and after their approval shall be read at such meetings as the council shall direct. SECTION VIII. Duties and Privileges of Members, 1. Each member to have the privilege of introducing one friend to any meeting but the anniversary and special meetings. 2. Members and honorary members to take part in the discussion at an ordinary meeting, but members only can vote. 3. Members, honorary members and visitors shall enter their name and address in a book to be kept for the purpose, on entering each meeting. ^ 4. Members must pay their subscriptions previous to the opening of the meet- ing, so as not to disturb in any way the proceedings . SECTION IX. Duties of Officers. 1. The president to be chairman at all meetings, and in his absence one of the vice-presidents ; in the absence of a vice-president the members to elect a chairman for that meeting. 2. The secretary to be a member of the association, and to hold in trust all the funds of the association, which shall be deposited by him into such bank as the ^50uncil may direct. Cheques to be drawn by the president and secretary, or by two vice-presidents and the secretary. 3. The secretary to be present at all meetings and to take minutes of the proceedings, and read those of the preceding meeting. SSOTION z. Museumj Library and Property of the Association. 1. With a view to benefit the members and others of the association, by the diffusion amongst them of information essential for their knowledge, endeavors shall be made to establish a museum of marine engineeringr inventions (models and drawings) and a library of practical works for reference. This library not to be in any sense a lending library, but merely a library of reference for members. 2. All the movable property of the association to be held by the council, in trust for the association. 3. All books, drawings, communications, &c., to be accessible to all the mem- bers of the association, and to be held in trust by the oouncil for the use of the members. 4. All communications to the meeting to be the property of the association, and to be published only by the authority of the council. 5. None of the property of the association, books, drawings, &c., to be taken away from the oflSces of the association without the consent of the council. 6. All donations to the association to be enumerated in the annual report of the council, presented to the anniversary meeting. 8K0TION XI. Registry of unemployed Marine Engineers. This registry has been establiehed with the object of giving employers in the mercantile marine trade greater facilities for obtaining marine engineers of practical 560 MARINE. experience and ability. As no person can have his name registered here for a BitnatioD who has not the proper qualifications, and who is not in every way eligjible to take the responsibility entrusted to his care, it will, it is hoped, be the means in future of inducing shipowners, captains and superintending engineers to apply to the secretary, who will take the earliest opportunity of forwarding mechanical engineers of good character, holding certificates of competency, for any vacancy that may occur. 1. No person shall be allowed to have his name placed on this register who does not hold a certificate of competency from the Board of Steamboat Inspectors, or the English Board of Trade. 2. It shall be imperative that every marine engineer shall give to the secretary any information that may lead to the benefit of his fellows, if by post, telegram, or otherwise, he shall on application to the secretary, have the amount returned to him, and any person obtaining assistance through the agency of this office shall pay to the secretary the cost thereof ; and if not paid within twelve weeks after a situation, has been obtained by such means, he shall have such sum added to his arrears of subscription. 3. Any person on the register leaving his employment shall, as soon as con- venient, write his name and address in a book kept for that purpose, and if he shall have left his employment for any special reason he shall immediately put himself in communication with the secretary, stating his reason for so doing. 4. It is imperative that any marine engineer obtaining employment shall acquaint the secretary, stating the name of the vessel, where bound to, his position on board, whether Ist, 2nd or otherwise, and amount of pay received. Anyone infringing this rule shall be liable to a fine, to be determined by the first ordinary meeting held after the information has been received. 6. Any marine engineer who shall be discharged for misconduct, bringing him into disgrace, shall, if it be proven, have his name erased from the register, and upon no consideration shall he be reinstated. 6. The secretary shall, on receiving an application for men, use his best endea- vors on behalf of the engineer who has been out of work for the longest period, but should anyone be three months in arrears he shall have no claim to priority, only in the event of such one being specially sent for, in which case it shall be deemed a sufficient guarantee for the secretary to give way to the one applied for. T. Any person having a proposition to make for the improvement of the manage- ment of the registry shall, at his earliest convenience, submit the nature thereof to the secretary, that cognizance of the same may be given to the council. 8. Anyone who shall have obtained the entry of his name upon the registry by means of a false statement and declaration, shall, on the same being proved to the satisfaction of a council meeting, immediately have his name erased from the books, and upon no pretence shall he at any future time have his name placed thereupon. FORM A. Mr. being desirous of admission into the Canadian Maj-ine Engineers' Association, we, the undersigned, from our personal knowledge, propose and recom- mend him as a proper person to become a thereof. Witness our hands this day of I Members. FOBM B. Sib,— I beg to inform you that on the you were elected a of the Canadian Marine Eogineera' Association. In oonformity with the rules, your MABINE — OINOKB ALS. 561 election cannot be confirmed until the enclosed form be returned to me with your signature, and until your entrance fee and your first stibscription be paid. If the first subscription is not received within two months from the present date the election will beeeme void. I am, sir, your obedient servant, Secretary. form: c. I, the undersigned, being elected a of the Canadian Marine Eogineers*^ Association, do hereby agree that I will be governed by the regulations of the said atsociation, as they are now formed, or as they may hereafter be altered ; that I will advance the objects of the association as far as shall be in my power, and will attend the meeting thereof as often as I conveniently can, provided that whenever I shall signify in writing to the socretary that I am desirous of withdrawing my name there- from, f shall, alter the payment of any arrears which may be due by me at that period, be free from obligation. Witness my hand this day of 18 . FORM D. DECLABATION. To be made by all persons desiring to be placed upon the registry of the Canadian Marine Engineers' Association. That this registry having been established by licensed engineers, men of com* mercial, practical and mechanical knowledge, whose only object is to prevent valuable property being placed in the bands of unskilful men, 1, upon having my name placed upon your register, do conscientiously declare that I will uphold the principles of this association, and maintain them to the best of my ability. 1 also undertake to give such information that may come within my knowledge for the benefit of th* association and my fellow-members, whose interest I will in every way promote. Witness my hand this day of 18 . EXHIBIT 29. r. Clarke Wallace, Esq., Chairman of Committee on Combines, House of Commons, Ottawa. DkabSib, — We, the undersigned ginger ale manufacturers of the city of Montreal beg to draw your attention to the great loss we have sustained since the formation of the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, by not being aole to purchase our sugar direct from the refiners as formerly. Sugar is the largest item in onr business. The National Policy is intended to encourage manufacturers and give employment — the tendency of the Sugar Combine (Refiners' and Wholesale Grocers') is to destroy manufacturers that use large quanti- ties of sugar, by making them pay advanced prices. If you will kindly refer to the list of members of the Wholesale Grocers' Guild you will find three manufacturers in Montreal on it ; why this distinction? Is this justice to us ? We remain yours most respectfully, ROBERT MILLAR, ROBERT ALLAN. CHAS.GURD&CO., R. BLACKWOOD & CO , D. W. GAGNON & BROS., J. CHRHTiN&CIE., 19lh March, 1888. ARTHUR COOPER. »— 36 662 UNDKETAKERS — SUaAR. EXHIBIT 30. Richmond Hill, Ont., 10th March, 1888. N. Clarke Wallace, Esq., M.P., House of Commons, Ottawa. Dear Sir,— I have seen by the newspapers that you have succeeded in having a committee appointed to enquire into combines. Amongst other combinations, I submit that the committee would render a great public service by directing its atten- tion to a rigid enquiry into a grievous monopoly known as the Undertakers' Asso- ciation, a combination that injuriously affects the interests of all classes of society, but more particularly the poor and those least able to bear the burthens this associa- tion inflicts on them. Its organization, I am informed, is such that no undertaker, 'who is not a member of the association, can purchase a coffin, and in order to keep up a monopoly «nd extraordinary high prices of coffins and taneral furnishings, they prevent competition by refusing to deal with undertakers outside of the combina- tion, and they limit the number of those to whom they will sell or supply . For instance, a village like ours (Richmond Hill), they will not supply but one firm, thereby giving that firm a monopoly. They have their list of prices, and the suffer- ing public have to submit to exorbitant charges for extremely doubtful value at a time when the families are bereaved. This is a crying evil that affects poor and rich, and some remedy ought to be found to guard a suffering public against the -tyrannical monopoly. Please let me hear what you think of my suggestion. Yours truly, M. TEEFJT. EXEIBIT31. Montreal, Itth March, 1888. Pear Sir, — I had intended sending telegram for our W. B. Matthewson in his examination before the Committee at Ottawa, to be read and left with the Committee. The telegram intended to be thus sent was telephoned to him on the morning of giving his evidence, but it seems there was no opportunity of referring to the matter directly. As Mr. Drummond's evidence contained an offensive insinuation about crediting parties, it was open to and more than probable intended to convey the conviction to the public, and forming a sort of justifiable defence of his course ia arranging with the guilds that parties who did not fall in with their views and , refused to be coerced, were selling sugars under cost, and consequently unworthy of 1 credit. While this is not positively stated, the insinuation is clearly apparent, even ■ •to an ordinary observer, and largely, therefore, on this account the telegram, after- ' wards telephoned, was sent. I have thought it well to now send this telegraia ; which you will be pleased to read to the Committee and retain amongst its papers, j This is another sample of the most offensive and slanderous mode of acticg that I - liave had to do with. I also send a copy of our original telegram to Liverpool, when, on the 7th July, the intimation was conveyed that the secret band of con- spirators, refiners and guilds' representatives, had decided to put half a cent the pound on refined white sugars against the outsiders who refused to be coerced. It was doubtful about getting the sugar, but the reply next day gave satisfactory astrurauoes that we could get supplies. Another document is a letter from S. Canard & Co., of 9th instant, showing that they also consider themselves bound to obey the \ dictation of the guild, thus proving that they are also hand and glove with the f other refiners and the guilds. Thus showing that all the refiners are one in this | ^reat wrong against the public and the independent merchants of Ontario and Quebec in particular. Mr. Drummond refers to what Mr. Lightbound said would have been the cost of ^: granulated sugar about the end of the year or beginning of January as 8^ to cost to] import, ignoring the fact of a drop in the market as proved by a letter of 2nd FebJ snoAB. 663' ruary, 1888, attached, in which we are off are d 1,000 brla. granulated sa^ar at $7.22 in doable bags or $7.30 in barrels, laid down in oar store daty paid. This surely is an objectionable way of dealing with the matter. Only last evening we cabled across for some of the crystalized sugar. About the quality of the yellow refined sugars. Yesterday a country dealer asked me what he would do with a barrel of yellow refined sagar he had that was so hard that an axe would be necessary in the case. I told him to bring it to the store and it would soften. Then he suggested about the loss in wei&cht in conse- quence. He wanted to know the cause. I pointed him to the ice in the streets and let him imagine how it was caused. A city merchant also in our store at the time said he had known of a barrel in Toronto of 400 lbs. We have had them over 400 lbs. this last season. It would be well to know if the yellow sugars gave satisfaction to any of the parties giving evidence, especially as to dryness. About this combination or coBspiracy, as it really is. While the refiners in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are joined in it against oatside parties here, this conspiracy does not affect the trade in those provinces, nor anywhere but Ontario and Quebec. The refiners from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick should be called upon to explain their position and why tbey are joined to this outrageous affair. There is a very strong article in to day's Herald and a really good article in the Monetary Times, of Toronto, of this week, on the subject. The New York Times has lately devoted quite a space to our case here and communication is received asking for information from New York. One thing must not be forgotten ; until about the time of the formation of the " United States Sugar Trust," so-called, price of granu- lated, up to July at least, say, and later, was for expert about 3J cents, but we could not touch it because of the extreme protection against United States our tariff gives. It is very objectionable the indulgence in personalities and side issues on the ,part of some in the combine. Before the matter is finally disposed of I would like to go and further testify. Faithfully yours, J. A. MATHBWSON. Clabke Wallacb, Esq., Chairman of Committee on Combines. EXHIBIT 32. A. Halifax, N.S., 9th March, 1888* Messrs. J. A. Mathewson & Co., Montreal. Deak Sia, — We have your letter of 5t,h instant to the Halifax Sugar Eefining Company. As agents for the sale of the product of the refinery we do not feel justi- fied in running contra lo.expressed opinion and rules of the Grocers' Gruild, represent- ing, as it appears to do, nearly all the wholesale grocers* trade of Canada. We received a telegram from you yesterday asking f jr price of granulated, to which we replied asking you to apply to Mr. Osgood who sells for as in Montreal. Yours very truly, S. CUNAKD & CO., Agents, B. HARaREAvss BuiLDiNQs, 5 Chapbl Street, Liverpool, 2nd February, 1888. Messrs. J. A. Mathewson & Co., Montreal. Dear Sim, — We hai this pleasure, 28th January, and have none of your favors 40 reply to. The sugar market has continued fallinff until we were able to cable yoa 3-36i 564 SUGAR — COAL. a low offer for 1,000 barrels granulated, eay S7 30 per 100 pounds, or $7.22 in donble bags, laid down in your store duty paid. We are disappointed at having no reply elicited by so favorable opportunity. We found the "crystalized " which you some few weeks ago enquired about, also very cheap, 18s. 3d.,>f. o. b., and as it was within an hour or two of this steamer closing we ventured to send you a sample lot of 25 bags, as per sample herewith . We sent this little trial parcel to give you a fair test ofthisgrcde. We think it superior to anything your own refiners make (the refiner here calls it the cheapest in the world) and would be appreciated on the counters of your first-class grocers. Euolosed are bill of lading and invoice, £46 2s4 3d., and we hope it will please you to take it to account, and so much so as to order more. It would cost 6 cents more to put into barrels. Browo sugar: We can buy this at $5.15 laid down d. p. See sample herewith. Surely this is laying the lines of businciis in sugar, and an escape for you from the thraldom you so much detest. As 1>efore said, we will do what we can for you. Yours truly, ANDREWS, BELL & CO. C. Copy of original telegram and reply from Andrews, Bell & Co., Liverpool, about granulated sugar : — Montreal, 7th July, 1887, 10.30 p.m. (Springbok) — Send samples refined sugar, — positively British, like — (Squea- mieh — ) American granulate'1 . Eeply received 2 p.m., Friday, 8th July, 1887. Apace. — We offer, subject to reply by telegraph, British, 500 double bags, quality to be guaranteed, 168 6d. (owt.), cost, freight and insurance. Cost here, net reckoned, 6*643., or say 6*8 Is. 4 months' basis. EXHIBIT 33. CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS OF THE COAL TRADE BRANCH OF THR TORONTO BOARD OF TRADE. Deposited with the Uouncil of the Board. Rule I. — This association shall be known as the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto- Board of Trade, and shall be composed of such coal dealers as are members of the said board who are duly elected members of the branch by a majority ot the members present at a properly constituted meeting thereof, and who shall have paid their initiation fee to the said branch. The amount to be paid as initiation fee shall not exceed the sum of $100, and a register shall be kept of the names of the members enrolled from time to time. Rule II. — The cflScers of the branch shall be an executive committee consisting of seven members, of whom five shall be owners or lessees of docks and yards in the city of Toronto, and two who have yards in the city of Toronto, but who need not have docks. Only one member of each firm shall be eligible as a member of tho executive oomniittee. Four nhall form a quorum. Rule III. — The executive committee shall be elected annually by ballot, at the annual meeting to be held in December in each year, of which due notice shall bd given by the secretary. Rule IV. — The executive committee immediately after this election shall elect from among their number a chairman, deputy chairman and treasurer, who shalt hold their respective ofiSoes until others shall be elected at the next annual meeting in December in their stead, or nniil they shall be removed from office or shall vacate GOAL. 565 the same, and ehall also appoint a secretary, who shall hold office during the pleasure of the committee. Eole V. — It shall be the duty of the executive committee further to fix prices for coal, and change the same from time to time a^ in their jidgment the best interests of the trade demand, aud to instruct the secretary to notify all the members of the branch promptly of such action, and the prices so tixed shall be the prices at which coal shall be sold by all the members of this branch, and not otherwise, and the executive committee comes under an obligation to submit at any time, at the request of the CJouncil of the Board of Trade, for its consideration, a statement showing the percentage of profit being made by members of the branch, and the council may make a deliverance thereon. Rale VI. — The secretary shall not be interested or engaged in the coal business, and shall be paid for his services. Rule Vlt. — The regular meeting of the branch shall be held on the first Monday in each moith at such time and place as the execative may direct. Rule VIII. — Special meetings of the branch or executive committee may be called by the chairman at any time, and must be called by him upon a written re- quest of three members in the case of the executive committee and seven members in the case of the branch. Rule IX. — The executive committee of the branch shall fill any vacancies in their number arising from any cause who will hold office until next election. Rale X. — All motions and resolutions of the branch shall be decided by a majority of the members present, and tifteen members shall constitute a quorum. Rule XI — The constitution or by-laws of the branch may be altered or amended at any of the executive committee meetings, on notice to that eflfect having been given at a previous meeting, such alteration or amendments to the constitution or by- laws being subject to the approval of the council of the Board of Trade. Rule XII. — Any charges of violation of the by-laws of the branch must be re- ported to the secretary in writing, and it shall be his duty to investigate such charges under instructions from the executive committee ; it shall be his privilege to examine the books of the accused ; he shall also be allowed to require from the accused a written denial to the charges preferred, or an assent to the same. In the event of any accused member either- refusicg to permit an examination of his books by the sec- retary, or refusing to give a written denial or assent to the charges, it will be assumed as an acknowledgment of the correctness of the charges made. Rule XIH. — The secretary's report in reference to any alleged violation of the rules or by-laws ot the branch, shall be made in writing to the exeoutive committee. In case such committee shall decide that any such charge so preferred is sustained^ the member so found to have violated any of the rules of the branch shall be deemed in default, and liable to suspension or expulsion by a vote of the Executive Com- mittee. An expelled member shall forfeit all claim on the funds of the branch. Any member so suspended or expelled, deeming himself aggrieved, shall have the right of appeal, first to the branch, or subsequently to the council of the Board of Trade ; such appeal mubt be made in writing, addressed to the secretary, and the decision of the council ^hall bo final. BY-LAWS. I. — It shall be the duty of the chairman to preside at the meetings of the branch, and during his absence the duty shall fall upon the deputy chairman. II. — The secretary shall keep full minutes of the meetings of the branch, con- duct its correspondence, and prepare its annual report under the direction of the executive committee. III. — The treasurer shall take charge of the funds of the branch, disburse the same on the order of the executive committee, countersigned by the chairman, and shall report at all regular meetings, and his accounts shall be open to inspection at all proper times. IV. — No proxy vote shall be allowed. 566 MINUTES. V. — At all meetings of the branch or execntive committee, the following shall he the order of busicees when not changed by the chairman or deputy chairman : — Call to order. Eeading minutes of previous meeting (which may be dispensed with by res- olution). Keports of secretary and the treasurer. Unfiniehed businei>s. General business. Yl — Every member of the executive who may have occasion to speak, shall rise and address the chair. All motions shall be made in writirg. No person shall interrupt another while speaking, and all persons who may have once spoken to any motion thall, prior to speaking again, obtain permieeion from the presiding officer. It shall be lawful, however, for ihe presiding officer at any period of the meeting to Announce that the subject is open for conversational discussion, and in such case this rule shall not apply. VII. — The presiding officer shall be judge of all questions of order and procedure, and when the rules of the branch, or of propriety, are infringed upon, he may call ta order the tranegreesing member, who shall thereupon take his eeat ; but any member may appeal to the branch, and if seconded in such an appeal, the majority of the members present shall decide. YIII. — All rules of order or proceedings provided for by this constitution and by-laws shall be held to by the branch and the executive committee, as far as they may be applicable. IX. — Any member of the branch who shall sell coal at less than the prices fixed, or in violation of the rules and regulations made by the branch for the sale of coal, shall be subject to trial in accordance with the provisions of rules XII and XIII of the constitution. EXHIBIT 34a. MIKUTES OF MEETINGS OP THE COAL TRADE BRANCH OF THE TORONTO BOARD OF TRADE. From 14th June, 1886, to 1st March, 1888, inclusive. Special meeting of the Executive Committee held 14th June, 18S6. Piesident, Mr. Keith in the chair, Messrs. Wm. McGill, J. R. Bailey, Dowan, E. Rogers, Fairbank, P. Burns, John- son, McArthur, W. McFarlane and Mounse. The meeting was called to arrange about the hospital contract to be tendered for to-day. Moved by Mr. McGiil, seconded by Mr. Fairbank and resolved that the prices be as follows : — Egg, S5.50, Pittston and Scranton; Lehigh, $6.00; soft coal, 84.50, awarded to J. R. Bailey & Co., for 89U0. 22nd June, 1886. JOHN KEITH, Chairman A general meeting was called for the evening of 14th June, 1886, but there was- no quorum. A special meeting of the Executive Committee held 18th June, 1886. Present : Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Wm. McGill, J. R. Bailey, Crane, Fairbank, W. Bell and B. Rogers. The meeting was called to receive an explanation from Mr. Jolly and Mr. Bunker, relative to Mr. Barns' matter, these gentlemen having expressed a desire to meet the committee. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 56T Sesolved, that Mr. Jolly and Mr. Banker who were in the Exchange be allowed to enter the meeting and make their explanation and then retire. These gentlemen then entered and after stating their object, the meeting waa^ adjou'^ned until the iollowing morning at 10 o'clock. 22od June, 1886. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. On the 19th June, 1886, an informal meeting was held, and Mr. Burns having- satisfied the exchange was declared re-instated as a member in good standing. J. &.m Special meeting of the Executive Committee held 21st June, 1886. Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Crane, B. Kogers, Johnson, (P. Burns), Wm, McGill, Pairbank, McArthur. The meeting was called to arrange about the Parkdale Waterworks contract to be tendered for to day. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Johnson and resolved that the price bo $5.70 for egg and $5.95 for stove. The contract was awarded to the Conger Coal Comp*^ny for $380. Mr. Wm. McGill gave a notice of motion that no clubs, &c. (as specified in rul» No. 3) be taken at any price. i!2nd June, 18c6. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, Special meeting of the Executive Committee held 23rd June, 1886. Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. McGill, Johnson, (P. Burns), Gibson, T. R. Whiteside, E. Eogers, Bell (S. Crane & Co.). Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, that rule No. 3 in the special rules be amended as follows : The words " except at regular card rates " to be struck out. — Carried. Resolved, That where wood or soft coal is sold in connection with hard coal the price is to be $4 50 per cord for long wood, and cut and split 2 cuts $5, 3 cuts $5.50 ; pine, long, $3.50 per cord ; cut and split, $4 ; slabs, $3 ; soft coal for steam, $4.50 per ton ; soft, for grates, $5.50, and that the prices be written in the books before they are given out. Resolved, 1 hat this meeting considers there has been a cut on the Parkdale Waterworks tender on the part of Mr. Shannon. Resolved, That Mr. Shannon be requested to withdraw his tender for waterworks and in the event of his refusing to do so he be fined four hundred dollars. Mr. Shannon was present and gave his explanation relative to his tender which was not deemed satisfactory. 29th June, 1886. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, Executive Committee meeting held 22nd June, 1886. Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Crane, Gibson, Johnson (P. Burns), E. Rogers. Minutes of meetings of 14th, 18th and 21st June read and confirmed. Moved by Mr. Eogers, seconded by Mr. Crane, that Mr. Shannon having in- clnded the weighing in his tender for the Parkdale Waterworks contract he be called upon to explain at a special meeting of the Executive Committee to be called for 10.30 to-morrow morning, 23rd instant. — Carried. 568 MINUTKS. Resolved, That Mr, Barns' fine of 8 1,000 be applied as a premium and be divided ^ to the exchange and the balance to the importers according to tonnage of hard coal of last year as shown by the Oastom house returns ending Ist May, 1886. 29th June, 1886. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. Executive (>)mmittee meetmg held 29th June, 1886. Mr. Keiih in the chair. Present: Messrs. Johnson, (P. Burns), W. MoGill, Gibson, Fairbank, F. B. Whiteside & Co , C. J. Smith. The minutes of meetings of 2?nd and 23rd inst. read and confirmed. Resolved, That Messrs. A. Shannon & Co. be declared in default re Parkdale Waterworks and that the secretary of the Toronto committee of the Western Anthra- cite Association be notified to that effect. Moved by Mr. Johnson (P. Burns), seconded by Mr. Gibson, Resolved, That the prices be now fixed for the House of Industry and Knox ■College tenders. The following prices were then fixed : — House of Industry : — v illgg, 75 tons, $5 50 per ton, delivered Stove, 40 do " ^ Suait8ville,30 do Stove, 200 do Soft, '?00 do Awarded to Conger Company for $296.00. Knox College only: — 180 tons, grate $5 50 20 do stove 5.75 17 do soft 5.25 16 coi-ds hard wood 4,50 5 do pine do 3.50 Awarded to C. J. Smith for $195.00. Moved by Mr. Whiteside, seconded by Mr. Wm. Ball, That the price to dealers of 75 cents off card prices ba rescinded. Moved as an amendment by Mr. Gill, seconded by Johnson (P. Burns). That a special executive committee be called for to morrow to discuss the ques- tion of prices to dealers. The original motion was carried. 6th July, 1888. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, 5 75 do do 4.50 do do 6.H5 do in yard 4 50 do do Special meeting of the Executive Committee held the 30th June, 1886. Present: — Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. MoGill, Gibson, Fairbank, J. R. Bailey, W. Beli, T. R. Whiteside, Johnson (P. Burns), and C. J. Smith. This vtSki a special meeting called by the chairman to discuss the matter of prices to dealers. Resolved, That the resolutions passed at the meetiogs of 5th May last, relative to prices to dealers, be replaoeJ by tho following : — That the price to the retail dealers either at yard or on cars here be $1.00 per ton less than retail prioes. The secretary was instmoted to telegraph Mr. A. G. Yates relative to A. Shannon & Co. being in default. TORONTO 03AL BRANCH. 5^9 Moved by Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and carried unanimonsly, That I he motion passed at Qaeen's Hotel, 5th May last, re unfinished contracts, be enforced immediately and that those who do not send in their list by next execo* tive committee meeting be fined $25.00. hesolved, The secretary investigate the prices that are being paid by boats. 6th Jaly, 1886. JOHN KEITH, ChmrtMou Execntive Committee meeting held 6th July, 18^6. Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. (P. Burns) Johnson, J. R. Bailey, LytJe (Crane & Co.), W. McGill and Gibson (Conger & Co), C Rogorh(B. Rogers* Co.). Minates of execntive committee's meetings of 29th and 30th Jane read and ooi^ firmed . Moved by ^'r. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, and carried, That the price to boats be 50 cents off retail prices delivered at the boats. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibsoa, That the price to consumers from cars be the same as the regular retail prices without reductions. Moved as an amerdment by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. C. Rogers, That the coal to consumers from cars be 40 cents off regular retail prices; cart- age at consumerH' expense . The amendment was carried, and the secretary was instructed to notify all tixe wholesale dealers to that effect. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and carried, That prices cannot be changed unless at a special meeting called for that par- poee, every member of the executive committee being daly notified of the object of that meeting by registered letter. Resolved, That the price for the Public Library contract be the present prices- weighing free. Resolved, On the motion of Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, That no com- plaints be entertained except they be in writing. JNO. KEITH, Chairman. 13th July, 1886. Executive committee meeting held 13th July, 188S. Present ; — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Johnson (P. Burns), T. R. Whiteskle, Bell and Breckenridge (S. Crane & Co.), Wm. Bell, Pairbank and Elias Rogers. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. The secretary read a letter received from Messrs. AUbright & Smith, re Shannon & Co., to which he has replied, giving the information thev request. It having been stated that Messrs. Shannon & Co. were supplying the Parkdale Waterworks with coal, the chairman and secre- tary were appointed a committee to ascertain who were supplying Shannon & Co. with coal . Resolved, That the following be adopted as a special rule of this association, namely, that in the event of this association reducing the prices f/om the present rates, in no case is there to be any rebate allowed on any order previously entered, and that no promise or offer of a redaction or rebate, directly or indirectly, shall ba made, and that any violation of this rule shall be treated the same as a violaiion of this rule in regard to prices. Resolved, That a special meeting of the executive committee be called for Saturday next, 17th inst., at 11 o'clock, to fix prices and dispose of the. Grovernment contract, and that all the inspectors be notified thereof, also that the secretary- request Mr. Nelson, the solicitor, to be present at that meeting to take affidavits «€ those that are present. 570 MINUTES. Resolved, That the following be added to the special rales :— That for orders "where the delivery extends over a length of time, in all oases an advance of 25 cents per ton shall be charged for deliveries after Ist September until Ist December, and that a further advance of 25 cents per ton shall be charged on Ist December for deliveries after that time until Ist May, 1887, and that this rule shall apply in all cases where the coal has not been paid for. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 20th July, 1886. Special meeting of the executive committee and importers held Friday, 16th July, at 4 o'clock, p m. JF^esent: — Mr. Keith in the chair, and J. E. Bailey, H. L. Fairbank, Mr. Johnson (P. Burns), Mr. Bell (of S. Crane & Co.), Wm. McGill, E. Rogers, T. Bell & Co., and J. Smith. Mesolved, That in the event of the market prices declining below the prices paid by the Toronto General Hospital, that the exchange pay back to J. E. Bailey jk Co. whatever Bailey & Co. have to rebate. Amended, that the matter be left over until next meeting. — Amendment carried. Mesolved, That the prices for Government contract be as follows : — 25 cents per t Mr. Crane complained that an order booked by W. J. McMaster & Co. with them had been taken from them by Kobt. McMaster for J. K. Bailey & Co., ho not being a registered agent of the Coal Trade Branch. Besolved, That the secretary write Messrs. J. R. Bailey & Co., asking for ex- planation respecting the matter, and report to the next meeting. Moved by Mr. Crane, seconded by Mr. Fairbank, That it having come to the knowledge of this committee that certain dealers have been in treacy with Messrs. John Macdonald & Co. and Gillespie, Ansley & Martin regarding the orders for their warehouses, employees and friends, it is re- solved that the secretary write to the dealers, reminding them that the booking of club orders is a violation of the rules of the Coal Trade Branch, and subjects any- one to be declared in default. Hesolued, That the chairman be authorized to sign the apportionment of moneys received re contracts, as follows : — Toronto Waterworks $1,000 00 Hospital 900 00 Knox College 196 00 Government 1,600 00 $3,595 00 Less J to C. T. Branch : 599 17 $2,996 83 Tons. J. B. Bailey & Co 34,324 $457 96 P. Burns 64,713 864 12 Conger Coal Co. 15,585 208 06 S. Crane & Co 7,339 97 89 Guest & McNolty ^ 2,684 34 42 Jno. Keith 7,210 96 22 Wm. McGill&Co.. 12,438 166 02 E. Kogers&Co 67,040 896 31 Eobinson & MoArthur 10,817 144 38 T. Bell & Co 2,286 30 45 224,336 $2,935 83 Executive committee meeting on 17th August, 1886. Present : — Mr. Jno. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Crane, Wm. McGill, Brown (J. R. Bailey & Co.), Whiton, (Conger Coal Co.),T. B. Whiteside, B. Kogers & Co.; request, Messrs. Shannon, Kobinson (R. & McA ), Coleman (C. J. Smith). The following lists of salesmen and sale agents were submitted for approval: — C. J. Smith, A. P. Stewart & Coleman, accepted. John Mun, left over for further enquiry. Bobinson & McArthur, left over for further enquiry. Mr. McAdam ; Clements again submitted and refused. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. W. Bell, and resolved. That the resolution of 3l8t July, re agents, be confirmed. W. Shannon & Co., J. Keith, Williams, accepted. Conger Coal Co., J. RoUo, left over for further investi- gation. J. R. Bailey, P. Burns, J. Hanscomb, Coons & McKee, accepted. Mr. Shannon having put in a new tender for Parkdale Waterworks, it was pointed out to him that it was out of order, and he agreed to withdraw the same. Mr. McGill made a charge against Messrs. Robinson & McArthur that they were supplying Messrs. Shannon & Co., and S. McAdam, with ooal at over $1 off retail prices. £76 MiNnxEs. The secretary reported that there was no reply from Mr. Burns re Duff, Iidwards, and Atkinson, who were still selling for him without having passed the (sommittee. Hesolved, That the secretary enquire farther into the matter. The secretary submitted his report in the case of Robert McMaster, an unregis- tered agent, having taken an order to Messrs. J. R. Bailey & Co., which had previously been booked with Messrs. S. Crane & Co. Resolved, That the consideration of this be left over until next meeting. Resolved. That Messrs. T. McConnell & Co. not having withdrawn their agents as requer^ted by the committee, they be now declared in default and be fined 3100. Resolved, Th%t price cards be printed and sent to each dealer. Special general meeting held 17th August, 1886, at 8 p.m. Present : —'M.r. Keith in the chair; Messrs. B. Rogers, Clancy, J. McGill, T. Mounco, Woodrow, T. Peacock, A. E. Hagerman, W. McConnell, A. Mcintosh, T. Itoulston, T. Coulter, Frost, T. W. Barber, J.Burns, Wm. Law, G. Sharp, Wm. ^11, J. Aikins, J. Vance, T. Grinnell. The following motion was moved by Mr. Rogers, which the meeting was epeoially called to consider, and of which notice had been given at last meeting, seconded by W. Bell, That this branch having heard the explanation from the secretary of the Board of Trade regarding the gratuity scheme, recommends, so far as those members are concerned who are wishful to join in it, that the first payment of S5 shall be paid out of the funds of the branch in the hands of the treasurer, subject to the approval of the executive committee. — Carried. Executive committee meeting held 24th August, 1886. Present ;— Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. Fairbank, W. McGill, Crane, B.„ Sogers and Gibson. Minutes of meeting of 20th and 23rd, 27th, 29th, 30th July, 2nd, 6Lh, 9th, 11th, 17th August, read and confirmed. The name of Mr. Munn was again submitted as the salaried salesman of Mr. C J. Smith and was approved. The secretary was instructed to buy coal from agents not registered with this committee to the extent of one ton from each, to ascertain from whom they obtain their supply of coal. Moved by Mr. Fairbank, seconded by Mr. Rogers, and carried unanimously, That the recommendation from the general meeting held I7th August, 1886, rela- tive to the first payment of 35 to the gratuity scheme of the Board of Trade for those iiiembers who are wishful to join in it, being paid out of the funds of the branch in the treasurer's hands, be approved and confirmed. A letter was read, received by the secretary, from Mr. S. McAdam, relative to the agency of Mr. Clements, and it was Resolved, That the previous decision of the committee not confirming his ap- pointment be confirmed. The secretary was instructed to sec Mr. McAdam and explain the reasons of the committee for their action in this matter. Resolved, That the secretary see Messrs. Robinson and McArthur relative to their contract with Shann6n & Co. and S. MoAdam, and divert their attention to prices to doalerr* and that no violation would be permitted. Resolved, That Mr. Keith withdraw the contract for the House of Industry, ivhich he id reported to have obtained, and same to be transferred to Conger Coal Co., and pay to them the difftirence between prices at which Mr. Keith made con- tract and those made by the Conger Coal Company. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 67T Resolved, That if Mr. Keith does not carry oat the foregoing resolution he b& fined five hundred dollars. Resolved, That advertising prices be considered at next meeting. Resolved, That a special meeting be called for Monday, 30th instant, at 4 o'clock^ to taiie into consideration raising prices. The narao of James Beamish was submitted for membership, which wa» approved, subject to his election to the Board of Trade. Resolved, That the secretary be instructed to investigate if Mr. Tihis has obtained Parkdale Waterworks contract and on what terms, and if below prices, ho be required to cancel. It having been stated that Messrs. E. Rogers & Co. have taken the post office employees as a ciub at $6 for all winter, Resolved, That Messrs. Crane, Fairbank and W. Bell be a committee along with the secretary to investigate the matter and to report at next meeting. Resolved, That Mr. J. Rollo be accepted as a salaried salesman for the Conger Coal Compary upon taking the usual affidavit. Correct. H. L. FAIRBANK, Chairman pro tern. Special meeting of the executive committee held 28lh August, 1886 ; Mr. Keith in the chair. Present ; — Messrs. Fairbank, Crane, Wm. Bell, W. McGill and E. Rogers. This was a special meeting called to receive the secretary's report on several cases of breaking the rules and cutting prices. P. Burns, belling halt ton nut to Mrs. Curtain, 100 Argyle Street, through A. R. Duff, an unauthorized agent. ^soZyed, That if Mr. Burns could not give a satisfactory explanation at next committee meeting, 30lh inst., a fine of $100 be imposed. Robinson & Mc Arthur, selling half ton stove to Donnelly, rear No. 11 Eaclid Avenue, through Boavis, an unauthorized agent, at 83. Resolved, That this being a double broach, if Messrs. Robinson & McArthur could not give a satisfactory explanation at next committee meeting, they ba fined $100 in each case. John Keith for selling Hill Brockton, P. C, winter supply of coal at $6, receiv- ing a deposit on account, the balance to be paid from time to time as the coal is de- livered. Mr. Keith explained that this had been done by one of his men without his knowledge and consent, and directly he heard of it he cancelled the order. Resolved, That as the order had been taken, Mr. Keith must be held responsible, and a fine of $100 was imposed. While this case was being discussed, Mr. Fdirbank took the chair pro tern, and by request of Mr. Keith retained it until the end of the meeting. Mr. breckenridge at this stage entered the meeting, and by request of Mr. Crane stated a case that had jast come to his knowledge where T. McOonnell & Co. had taken an order which had been booked by Crane & Co. at fuliprices, atunder $6. The secretary reported that Guest & McNolty had supplied T. McConnell& Co. with a load of stove coal to No. 66 Sherboorne Street, on 25th August, T. McConneU being in default. Resolved, That Guest & McNolty be fined $100 if they cannot give a satisfactory explanation at next committee meeting. Jos. Dilworth, selling Mr. Bradley half ton nut at $3 to-day, while the account was made out at $3. 15. Resolved, That unless Mr. Dilworth could give a satisfactory elcplanation at next committee meeting, be be fined $100. It was named that it was reported and the sub-committee appointed were in- Testigating the matter, that E. Rogers & Co. had taken the post office employees aft 3—37 678 MINUTES. a club at $6 for all winter, and Mr. Eogors was askod to explain. He stated they had received no order from them and would not do so as a clab nor under regular f)rioe8. Correct. H. L. FAIRBA.NK, Chairman pro tern. Executive committee meeting held 30th August, 1886. Present: — Mr. Fairbank, who was voted into ihe chair; Messrs. Crane, Wm. Bell, C. Eogers (B. Rogers & Co.), Wm McGill, Johnson (P. Burns), Gibson & Bobinson, of Robinson & Mc Arthur, and Joseph Dil worth, the two latter by request. Minutes of the meetings held 24th and 25th August were read and confirmed. Mr. Robinson (of Robinson & McA.rthur) explained his action in the matter of the sale through Beavis, an unregistered agent, which was ronsidered unsatisfactory, and fines of $100 for underselling and $5 for selling through Beavis were imposed. Mr. Johnson, for P. Burns, explained that Daff was no longer in the coal basi- ness, that they were putting a man out of their own office in the place. Resolved. That on condition that this man is put in on the following morning there be no fine imposed. The secretary reported that he had received a letter from Mr. Keith, which was read, stating he was going out of town, and would send in his cheque for the $100 fine next day Mr. Jos. Dilworth made an explanation to the meeting relative to the charge againKt him, which was unsatisfactory, and he was fined $100. — Resolved unanimously. Resolved, That as no one had appeared from Guest & McNolty relative to their charge re T. McConnell & Co., the secretary see them and hear what explanation they have to make. Mr. Bell here took the chair at the request of Mr. Fairbank. Mr. Fairbank gave a notice of motion to be brought up at the next regular meeting, " That special rule No. 1 be amended to make the minimum fine of $10 instead of $100 named therein." He explained that his intention in so doing was that fines should be made more or less severe according to the nature of the offence. Resolved, That the secretary see the dealers personally who have been fined, and state to them, if the fines are not paid before 6 to-morrow, 3 1st August, they are declared in deiault, and that the dealers be notified of same by registered letter and Mr. Yates be notified by telegram. A charge was brought against Messrs. Crane & Co. that Scroggie, their agent, had sold one-half ton of coal at $3. Mr. Crane explained, and the secretary was instructed to investigate the matter. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Crane, and resolved, that the resolution of 13th July, respecting prices, be rescinded. Resolved, unanimously, that prices remain as at present until 1st October, and that there be no orders taken for delivery after that date at present prices, and that this shall apply in all cases where the coal has not been paid for. Resolved, That prices be advertised to-morrow and on each Saturday for a month in the Globe, Mail, News, World and Telegram. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, 6th September, 1886. General meeting held Ist September, 1886. This was a specie 1 meeting called by the chairman at the request of more than seven members. Present : — Messrs. Gerris O'Leary, Dalby Hagerman, T. Bell, S. MoAdam, John HcGill, W. Spence, A. Shannon, W. R. Tesky, Woolrow, Mounoe, Cotts, Robinson, £oulston, Cross, P. McConnell, McFarlane, Law, C. H. Rogers, Barber, Aikens, Olanoy, W. Bell, Lytle, Jo8. Dilworth, Jas. Dilworth. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 679 At the opening of the meeting none of the executive committee were present, and Mr. C H. Rogers was unanimously voted into the chair. He explaiaed that this was a special meeUng called at the request of several of the members, and would like to hear from them. Mr. MoAdam moved a resolution which, after considerable discussion, was with- drawn, and the following substitute 1. (Before the meeting could proceed, however, it was pointed out to the chairman that there were certain members present who were in default, and who were not entitled to be present.) The secretary was requested to read out iheir names, and at the request of the chairman, Messrs. Eobinson, T. M. McConnell, Jos. Dilworth and Jas. Dilworth with- ■drew from the meeting. Moved by Mr. McAdam, seconded by Mr. W. Bell, That this meeting petitions the executive committee for enlarged representation for the strall dealers on the executive committee. — Carried unanimously. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. CHAS. H. EOGERS. 6th September, 1886. Executive Committee meeting held 6th September, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Gibson, Jas. Bell, J. K. Bailey and C. H. Eogers. Mr. James Dilworth entered the meetiner and introduced Mr. Wickens (from Mr, McNab's oflSce) who attended to defend J. & J. Dilworth in the charge against them for which they had been declared in default. Moved by Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Bailey and JResolved, That Mr. Wickens be heard. After hearing Mr. Wickens' further explanation respecting the matter, it was Resolved, that the case of Messrs. J. & J. Dilworth be left over for two weeks for investigation of the executive committee as a whole, and in the meantime the dealers be allowed to supply them with coal. This result having been made known to Messrs. Wickens and James Dilworth (who had withdrawn from the meeting during its discussion) they then retired. The minutes of the executive committee meeting of 30th August and general meeting of Ist September, 1886, were read and confirmed. The eecretary having given in his farther report on the charge against Guest & McNolty re T. McConnell & Co. the matter was allowed to drop without any fine. The secretary reported on the Scroggie & Co. case, aud it was moved by Mr. Bailey seconded by Mr. C. H. Eogers, and Hesolved, That in Mr. Crane's absence through sickness it be left over until he is able to be present. Moved by Mr. C. H. Eogers, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and JResolved, That this meeting having received the resolution passed by the general meeting on 1st September, 1886, relating to the smaller dealers being further repre- sented on this committee, the matter be left over until the annual in December next. Moved by Mr, Gibson, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and Resolved, That special rule No. I be amended as follows where it reads " for the first breach or offence forfeit or pay a fine of not less than 8100 which shall be pay- able forthwith to the treasurer, &c." it shall be corrected to read : '"The minimum fine shall be 010 with a sliding scale for different offences, the executive committee to impose same as the merits of each case demands." The city having called for fresh tenders on 6th September, it was resolved that the award of this contract made at a meeting held 9th August, be confirmed. Mr. Nelson, solicitor, account to the present, $50, was submitted, and was or- dered to be paid on the motion of Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. Gibson. 3— 37i 1^ MINUTES. Messrs. T. McConnell & Co. not having paid their fine, it was moved by Mr. C. H, Eogers, seconded by Mr. Bailey, that if the same be not paid within 48 hoars from this date that he be expelled from the Coal Trade Branch. — Carried. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 14th September, 1888. General meeting held Ith September, 1886. Present : C. H. Eogers in the chair. Messrs. Beamish, Frost, Woodrow, McFar- lane, Sharp, Hagerman, Cross, O'Leary, Dalby, Law, Thompson, T. Bell, Lytle, and Grinnell. The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. The secretary read the resolution passed by the executive committee relative to a further representation of smaller dealers on that committee as requested by the last general meeting leaving the matter over until the annual meeting in December next. After a conversation among the members relative to the trade, the motion was passed to adjourn. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 4th October, 1886. Executive Committee meeting held 14th September, 1886. Present: Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. A. McGill, S. Crane, Fairbanks and W. Bell. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. It was moved and seconded that J. & J. Dilworth's fine of $100 be confirmed. — Carried. It having been reported that certain dealers (not members of this branch) and West Toronto Junction were selling coal in this city and cut prices, it was moved by Mr, Fairbanks, seconded by Mr. Crane, and resolved, That the secretary ascertain "what dealers are supplying coal outeide the city limits within five miles of the same. A letter was read received from Eobinson & McArthur, stating they had opened a branch office at No. 41 9 Queen Street, West, solely under their own control and ex- pense, which was approved subject to these conditions upon enquiry being confirmed- It being reported that T. McConnell & Co. have received a cargo of coal from Fairhaven, the secretary was instructed to ascertain the particulars and telegraph- Mr. Yates. The following notice of motion was given by Mr. McGill : — That orders may be taken at following prices : Stove and chestnut, $6 ; egg and grate, $5.'75, for all winter. Resolved, That T. McConnell & Co. be reinstated in membership on condition that they comply with the rules and by-laws of the branch and pay a fine of 3200. JOHN KEITH, Chaiiman. 2nd September, 1886. Special meeting of the executive committee held 17th September, 1886. Present : Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Eogers, Fairbank and Crane. Mr. McConnell was present by request to explain his action in regard to his agents, and it was resolved on the motion of Mr. Eogers, seconded by Mr. Fairbank, That Mr. MoConnell's fine be reduced to 8100 on his complying with the rules of the branch, and upon payment of same he be reinstated as a member. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 2l8t September, 1886. TORONTO COIL BRANCII. 581 Executive committee held on 2l8t September, 1836. Present : Mr. Keith in the chair. Messrs. Craue, Bogers, McGill, Gibson and Baiiey. The minutes of the last two ezecative committee meetings read and confirmed. The charge against E. Rogers & Cj. for selling three tons of coal to a Mr. Brown, Seaton village, from their Queen Street office, for delivery as required, receiving $3 on account, was reported on by the secretary, and it was resolved, oa the motion of Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. McGill, That the report lay upon the table in the meantime. Moved by Mr. Rogers and resolved, That the following be sent to each member of the branch : — " At a meeting of the executive committee held to-day, it was decided to res- cind the resolution of 31st August in regard to the advance 1st October on anfilled orders." Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, and resolved. That dealers be at liberty to take orders at present for delivery until Ist May next at the present retail price, namely, |6 for stove and chestnut and 85.75 for egg And grale. Resolved, That Mr. John Keith's fine be remitted. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, and resolved. That the treasurer be authorized to advance 835 for a stove for the board room. The matter of S. Crane & Co.'s agent, Scro^jgie, having sold half a ton at $3 was again consideied and a fine of one hundred dollars was imposed on S. Crane k Co. for the same. Letters were read from A. McNab, Messrs. Dilworth's solicitor, which wero ordered to be laid on the table. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, . Special meeting of the Executive Committee held 22nd September, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair j Messrs. Bailey, Gibson, McGill, Crane and Rogers. The city contract having been tendered for at cut prices by a Mr. G. Logan and which tender has been accepted, this meeting was called to consider the matter. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, and resolved, That having regard to McConnell's matter and the city contract, a sub-com- mittee consisting of Messrs. Rogers, Bailey, Crane and the chairman, be appointed to proceed to Butfalo to confer with the members of the Toronto committee, with a view to taking steps to stop supplies to non-members in this market. Resolved, That the secretary telegraph to Mr. T. Guilford Smith, advising him that a deputation has been appointed to proceed to Baffalo to confer with their com- mittee on matters of importance, asking him what is the earliest date they can meet the deputation, Mr. Bailey to telegraph Mr. Yates. Mr. Gibson gave the tollowing notice of motion: — That a motion will be made at the next regular executive committee meetings on Tuesday, 28th September, to advance tbe price of coal 50 cents per ton, and that the same be advertised in the daily papers by the month. Resolved, That Mr. Keith be paid 81 for cab hire. JOHN KEITH, ChairtMH, 28th September, 1886. Executive committee held 28th September, 1886. Present: — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. McGill, Gibson, Fairbank and Crane. The minutes of the last two meetings read and confirmed. Resolved, That the secretary obtain from Mr. W. Bell, the chairman of the com- mittee appointed to investigate the post office employees' order, his report on tha matter, to lay before next meeting. 5S2 MINUTER. I, Movei by Mr. Bailey, eeconded by Mr. Crano, That MeserB. E. Kogers & Co. be fined $10 for the Brown Soaton village charge,. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Gibson, That Messrs. B. Kogers & C). be fined $100 for the same, as an amendment. The amendment was lost and the original motion was declared carried on the casting vote of the chairman. Moved by Mr. MoGill, seconded by Mr, Rogers, and Resolved, That the assessment No. 1, now made by the gratuity scheme of the Board of Trade for the first death upon its members in the Coal Trade Branch as per account submitted by their secretary amounting to $129 be passed and the treasurer be authorized to pay the same. Moved by Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and carried. That commencing Ist O ^tober, 1886 (next), the price of coal be advanced 5& cents per ton all round as per card prices, and that sarao be advertised in daily papers by the month, same as in Batfalo markets, nothing extra for halt tons, 15 cents extra for quarter tons. Resolved, That members of the Board of Trade gratuiiy scheme vho have paid the first assessment of $5 have that amount paid to them by the treasurer who is hereby authorized to pay the same. A letter was read, received by the secretary from T. Bell & Co., enclosing a copy of their contract with J Dilworth, who is in default, who was pressing ihem to fill the order, asking the committee for instructions in the matter. Resolved, That T. Bell & Co. be notified that the Coal Trade Branch have nothing^ to do with the agreement, and that the secretary inform them that if they supply them they will be liable to be fined. The following accounts were passed and ordered to be paid. The secretary's account for salary and disbursement for the month, $51.02 ; Mr. Bradley, $11.25 ; Mr. Coleman's aflSidavit, $2. Executive committee held 4th October, 1886. Present .—Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Crane, W. Bell, Whites-ide and Rogers. This was a special meeting called by the chairman with a view to meeting Mr. Parrish, of Messrs. Chisholm & Parish, re T. McConnell & Co. 's matter, who had expre.-sed a wish to the meet committee to have them re-instated. Mr. Parrish, havins: been delayed in his arrival, was unable to be present. The secretary read a report from the sub committee re Rogers & Co., and the post office employees. Moved by Mr. Bell, seconded by Mr. Whiteside, and resolved. That the matter be lelt over until next meeting. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, October, 1886. Executive committee meeting held 5th October, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Crane, Whiteside, W. Bell and John- son (P. Burns). T. McConnell & Co., and Mr. Parrish (of Chisholm & Parrish, Buffalo) were present to meet the committee in relation to re-instating T. McConnell & Co. as members of the branch. Resolved, That the following be admitted to. act for T. McConnell & Co., on their complying with the rules of the branch : John Cooper, salaried salesman to take affidavit. Moses, Young Street, C. Hums, King Street East, Bethel, to have separate office and clerk in charge who shall attend to no other business The business to l)e done in T, McConnell & Co.'s name only, who shall have his name up. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 583- Besolved, Th&t upon the secretary being Batisfied that the reqairementsof the branch as above stated are compiled with, he is authorized to send out notificationB of T. McConncll & Co. being re-instated as members. T. McConnell & Co. then paid their fine of $100. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. General meeting held 4th October, 1886. Present: — Mr. Keith in the chair ; Messrs. Beamish, Kennedy, R. Saulter, Chia- holm, Cross, Sharp, Eoulston, J, MoGill, J. Aikins. Jas. Burns, McAdam, W. Bell, W. McGill, Mounce, T. Bell, Robinson, Lytle, J. Bell, E. Rogers, O'Leary, Cotts. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Moved by Mr. Robinson, seconded by Mr. Mo Adam and carried, That Jn consideration of the executive committee of the coal branch changing the by-laws by which they took office, this meeting wishes them to account for so doing. After considerable discussion in which many members took part, an explanation by some of the members of the executive committee which was satisfactory to th» meeting, it was resolved to adjourn. Executive Committee meeting 26th October, 1886. Present: — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Gibsor, W. MoGill, Crane and White* side. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Resolved, That in the event of E. Rogers & Co.'s fine of $10 not being paid at once they be declared in default. Resolved, That the matter of S. Crane & Co.'s fine, $100, which has not been paid^ be left over for consideration at next meeting. The secretary read a letter received from Mr. James Dil worth of J. & J. Dil- wortb, offering to pay $50 as his share of the $100 fine against that firm. Resolved^ That the full amouct must be paid. The secretary read a copy of a bill of lading for 254 tons egg and stove coal per schooner *' Ariadne" shipped by Butler, Coll & Co. for H. C. Springer & Co. per Gooderham & Worts, and he reported that he had sent a copy of this bill of lading to Mr. A. G. Tates and Mr. T. Guilford Smiih. Resolved, That the secretary telegraph these gentlemen asking if these shipmentB cannot be stopped and a heavy fine impcsed on the shippers. Resolved, That the secretary ascertain from whom Bowman (Stinson's successor) is obtaining his coal and if necessary purchase a ton to obtain the information. Mr. W. McGill gave notice of a motion to reduce the price of coal to $6. 26th October, 1886. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. Executive Committee meeting held 26th October, 1886. Present ;— Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Pairbank, T. Bell (S. Crane & Co.),. W. Bell, J. R. Bailey, W- McGill and B. Rogers. Minutes of the last meeting read and confirmed. Resolved, That as Messrs. B. Rogers & Co. have not paid their fine of $10 th& secretary is instructed to call upon them for payment and if it is not paid they be declared in default. Resolved, That S. Crane & Co.'s fine be reduced to $10, re Scroggie. 684 MINDTKS. Resolved, Moved by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. McG-ill, That tho matter of the shipments by the Butler Colliery Co. to G-ooderham & Worts bo left iu the bauds of the Toronto committee in Buffalo, to be dealt with as the inaportance of the case demands; and it is further Resolved, That as the Batler Colliery Co. have indicated their willingness to make reparation for the damage done this market through the shipment of coal to Ooodorhara & Worts contrary to the rules of this association, this committee are of opinion that i>overal thousand dollars would not be sufficient to undo the mischief, as the coal has been distributed among a large circle of friends and connections who freely informed their frioods that they have succeeded in beating tho coal ring, and Lave got their coal at a large reduction from ring prices. However, in view of tho prompt offer of the Butler Colliery Co., the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Baard of Trade are to be as reasonable as possible in their demands, and will accept $1,000 «s full satiefacLioD in this instance, and that the secretary be instructed to forward a <}opy of this resolution to the secretary of the Toronto committee at Buffalo. Resolved, Moved by Mr. W. Bell, seconded by Mr. McGill, That those dealers who have applied to become members of this exchange who liave become members of the Board of Trade be allowed two weeka to become mem- bers, otherwif^e their supplies of coal will be cut off. Resolved, Moved by Mr. Rogers, seconded by Mr. Bailey, That the Conger Coal Company having supplied Mr. Edwards, a dealer, who is BOta member, they be fined $10 for the same. The fine was paid. Mr. Bailey proposed A. W. Bowman, seconded by Mr. W". Bell, as a member of the coal trade branch. Moved by Mr. Fairbank, seconded by Mr. McGill, and i2eso2i;e<2, That all members of this branch who have supplied dealers who are not members, be fined $10. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. Crane, That coal be reduced 60 cents per ton. — Lost. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr. W. Bell, That a detective be employed to test the market, as regards present prices. The secretary stated that T. McCoonell had not yet complied with the rules by paying his fine and withdrawn his agents, and it was Resolved, Moved by Mr. Bailey, b-ecooded by Mr. McGill, That a committee, consisting of Messrs. Rogers, Fairbank and Bailey, be ap- pointed, to proceed to New York with full power to lay the case before the Buffalo committee. Tho following accounts were passed: — For telegrams, $4 69 j Biackott Robin- 80n, $40.85 ; Secretary account for month, $49.18. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, 2nd November, 1886. Themonthly meeting of the members was called for 1st November, 188^, but owing to their being no quorum t;o meeting was held. Executive Committee meeting held 2nd November, 1886. Present: — Mr Keith in the ohair; Mobsrs. J. R. Bailey, Gibson, W. McGill, Whiteside, W. Bell and S. Crane. Minutes of the last meetiog read and oonfirmed. The secretary reported that Mewers. B. Rogers & Co. had paid their fine of $10. Mr. Gibsr^n as representing the sub-committee who proceeded to New York, re T. McConnell &Co., and the Butler Colliery Co., submitted their report to the effect that the matter was left in the hands of the Toronto committee of the Western Anthracite Aseooiation. T0E)NTO COAL BRANCH. M& The secretary read let^^^ers and telegrams passed between this branch and A. G, Yates, Esq., and T. Guilford Smith, Esq., re T. AlcConnell & Go. since last meeting. The secretary was instructed to call a special general meeting for Monday nez^ 8th November, for the election of the following members of the branch : — A. M. Bowman, proposed by Mr. J, R. Bailey. Edwards, proposed by Conger Coal Co. J. Grinell, proposed by Mr. B. Rogers & Co. The sub-eoramittee on the Post OflSce eubmilted their report and it was re- solved that Messrs. E. Rogers & Co. be fined $50 for taking the same contrary to the rules of the association. Mr. Gibson gave notice of motion as follows : — That the dealers doing business in the outskirts wiihin 5 miles of the city limitft be required to register wilh the committee and take the affidavit, and that the dealers supplying them see that this re olution is carried out. The secietai y reported that Messrs. T. Bell & Co. were supplying Mr. Jas, Dilworth, he being in dt fault. Resolved, That T. Bell & Co. be fined 8100 for so doing. Mr. Crane gave notice of motion as follows: — To reduce the price to farmers to S i per ton off retail prices. The expenses of Mr. Gibsou to New York 836 50, and Mr. Rogers to New York and Buffalo (2 trips) <38.50 were ordered to be paid. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 20th November, 1886. Special Executive Committee meeting held 5th November, 1886. Present :—M.v. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Fairbank, Jas. Bell (S.Crane &Go.}, "W. Bell, E. Rogers, Wm. McGill. Mr. T. McConneU was present by request re Logan. He admitted that he was supplying Logan with both hard and solt coal for the city contract, for which ho stated he was getting full price. Resolved, That T. McConneU & Co. be required to make a deposit of $1,000 with this branch as a pledge of gool faiih before again being received into membership. Resolved, That Mr. Fairbank be deputed to proceed to Buffalo as representing this committee to explain to the Toronto Committee of the Western Anthracite Asso- ciation the wish of this committee respecting the matter. Resolved, The following be a sub-committee to see that the city contract is puti in according to specification. The secretary read letters from Messrs, J. R. Bailey and Co. and MacNab and Wickens, to the effect that the fiue of 8 tOU was paid by the firm of J. & J. Dilworth, and that the partnerbhipis dissolved. James Dilworth continues a member of that Coal Trade Branch under his present membership. Joseph Dilworth being still in default. Resolved, That Messrs. T. Bell & Co., not having paid their fine of $100, if not paid to-morrow, 6th inst., the secretary is instructed to declare them in default. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 30th November, 1886. Executive committee meeting held Gih November, 1886. Present: Mr. John Keith in the chair ; Messrs. W. McGill, Fairbank, Rogers; Orane, W. Bell, Mr. R. B. Mc Williams, as representing the Toronto Committee ia Buffalo, and Mr. Parish of Messrs. Chisholm & Parish, Buffalo, were present re T. McConneU & Co.'s matter. The secretary at the request of the chairman read the resolution passed by tho executive committee, 5th November, stating that the committee wished that a do* 5S6 MINUTES. pofiit of $1,000 be made with the treasnrer by T. McGonnell & Co., as a pledge of good faith for the future. The same to be forfeited to the Coal Trade Branch if T. McConnell & Co. should violate its rules or bj-laws. Moved by Mr. McGill, seconded by Mr, Fairbank, That assessment No. 3 of the gratuity scheme of the Board of Trade as presented by the secretary, amounting to $135, be paid out of the funds of the Coal Trade Branch of the Board of Trade, and the treasurer is authorized to pay the secretary of the Board of Trade that amount. — Carried. T. Bell & Co. not having paid their fine of $100, resolved, they are now declared in default, and the secretary is instructed to notify the shippers in the Buffalo Coal Exchange. The matter of T. McConnell & Co. was discussed freely with Messrs. R. B. Mo- Williams and Mr. Parish, and it was ultimately agreed and resolved that upon Messrs. TT. McConnell «& Co. paying to the treasurer $1,000, as resolved at the last meeting and complying with the rules, that they be reinstated as members. Mr. Parish agreed to tnis resolution and promised in the presence of the committee that the $1,000 should be paid before he left the city. The unanimous thanks of the committee were tendered to Mr. R. E. Mc Williams, the deputation, for his presence and support. Resolved, That the price to farmers ex-yard for consumption outside the city be 75 cents off present retail prices. The prices to expressmen and others, for city oonsnmption, to remain as at present, 40 cents off retail prices ex-yard. JOHN KEITH, Charman. 30th November, 1886. Special meeting held 13th November, 1886, of the executive committee. Present: — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. W. Bell, Jas. Bell (S. Crane & Co,), T. K. Whiteside. The secretary reported tbatT. McConnell & Co. had paid cheque for $500 marked. liesolved, That this committee comfirms the resolution passed at the last meeting in the presence of Mr. Parrish, to the effect that $1,000 be deposited in cash by T. McConnell & Co. with the treasurer as a pledge of good faith, the same to bo forfeited in case of T. McConnell & Co. violating the rules or by-laws of the exchange. This payment of $500 in the meantime to be considered as a payment on account and that T. McConnell & Co. are still in default. That a copy of this resolution be Bent to Messrs. R. E. McWilliams, Chisholm & Parrish, and to Mn Yates, the sec- retary of the Toronto Committee in Buffalo. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, 30th November, 1886. Meeting of the executive committee held 19th November, 1886. Present:— iir. Keith in the chair; Messrs. W. MoGrill, W. Bell, S. Crane, J, R. £ailey, E. Rogers and Fairbank. The secretary read the correspondence that had taken place with Buffalo since last meeting relative to Messrs. T. McConnell & Co. Moved by Mr. Crane, seconded by Mr. Bell, and resolved, That MoBt^rs. T. McConnell & Co. having paid the sum of $500 as a deposit of good faith that they will keep the rules and by laws of the Coal Trade Branch, they be received as members on complying with the rules. Mr. T. Bell was present and explained his position regarding his contract with Job. Dilworth. Moved by Mr. McGill, 8«;conded by Mr. Crane and resolved, That Missrs. Bailey and Fairbank be a subcommittee to assist and advise Mr. JBell in arranging a settlement with Mr. Dilworth. Mr. Bell in the meantime to xemain in default. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 58T Resolved, That Messrs. Bailey, Fairbank and the secretary be a sub-oommitteo Ac reply to the letter received from Buffalo re T. McConnell & Co. The following acconnts were passed: — Bengough, Typograpb, $14; advertising- in World, $i.60 ; advertising in Telegram, 86 ; advertising in Mail, $6 ; Canada Mutual, Telegrams, Oct., 82.55. Resolved, That Mr. W. Bell and Mr. Fairbank be auditors for the year. JOHN KEITH, Chairman, 30th November, 1886. Executive Committee meeting held 23rd November, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. B. Rogers, Fairbank and W. Bell. Mr. Kogers handed to the chairman a letter addressed to them from Mr. Riddellj in the Post Office, relative to the Post Office eToployees, which was read. The secretary reported that T. McConnell & Co. has recently been supplying the Court Street Fire Hall with hard coal for Logan under the city contract and h© expected to have further caeee. He was instructed to have them ready for next meeting so as to give the committee sufficient evidence to deal with the matter. The secretary reported that T. McConnell & Co. had requested payment of tha amount they claimed was due to them in their tonnage for last year, namely, y,500^ f 126.87. The chairman certified its correct nees and it was ordered to be paid. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 30th November, 1886. Executive committee meeting 30th November, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair ; Messrs. Crane, Whiteside, W. Bell and James Bell (S. Crane & Co). Minutes of committee meetings of 2nd, 5th, 9th, 13th and 23rd were read and confirmed. The secretary reported that he had procf tbaton several occasions T. McConnell & Co. had supplied coal to fill the city contract, and it was resolved that the amount deposited with the treasurer, 8600, as a pledge of good faith, is declared to be forfeited, and that T. McConnell & Co. are put in default. The secretary was instructed to obtain an affidavit of the evidence, a copy of •which is to be sent to Mr. Yates and Mr. E. E. McWilliams, atd to notify the ship- pers in Buffalo that T. McConnell & Co. are in default. The chairman reported that Mes-srs. E. Eogers & Co. having understood special rule No. 3 differently from the committee, especially as applying to the post office, they were willing to refer the meaning of that rule to the committee and be guided by their decision. Rt&olved, that Rule No. 3, which was read by the secretary, moans just what it states, and that the taking of the post office employees from one of their number with the separate names and quantity ordered by each one is a breach of this rule. JOHN KEITH, Chairman. 3rd December, 1886. Executive committee meeting held 3rd December, 1886. Present : — Mr. Keith in the chair ; Messrs. Fairbank, James Bell, S. Crane & Co.. J. K Bailey. E. Eogers, W. Bell. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. Moved by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. Fairbank, and resolved. That Messrs. T. Bell & Co.'s fine be reduced to $25, and upon payment of same they be re-instated. Messrs. S. Ciace & Co.'s fine, $10, and E. Eogers & Co.'s fine, $50, were reported as paid. ^588 MINUTES. Mr. Bogers read a letter they had received from the Batler Colliery CJo. re- lative to Mr. Spricger'a shipment to Gooderham & Worts, and the matter was re- ferred to Mr. Bailey to make up prices and report at next meeting. Moved by Mr. W. Bell, Boconded by Mr. Fairbank, and resolved, That the secretary of the Board of Trade account for the fourth assessment to tho gratuity fund, amounting to $135, be passed and is ordered to be paid by the trea- surer out of the lunds of the branch. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. General meeting (the annual meeting) held 6th Dacembar, IBS'?. Present;— Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. Bowman. N. McGonnell, W. Bell, WooUat, Cross, Clancy, J. Aikeos, Dalley, MoParlane, O'Loary, Sharpe, Woodrow, Whiteside, Gibson, Crane, S. McAdam, Robinson, Shannon, Frost, W. Spence, Hagerman, Gerrie, Gemmill and Woodrow. The secretary submitted his report, which was adopted on the motion of Mr. Gibson. The treasurer's report, showing a balance of $1,344 99 on hand, was also adopted. The chairman announced that the executive committee would now be elected for the ensuing year. As five required to have docks and yards, the following were declared elected : Messrs. P. Burns, Elias Rogers & Co., J. R. Bailey & Co., S. Crane & Co., the CoDgor Coal Company. 21 19 II 14 4 JVominations. W, Bell, nominated by Mr. Sharpe, seconded by Mr. Frost. T. R. Whiteside do do Grinnell do do Aikens. W. McGill do do W. Spence do do Woodrow. John Keith do do Gibson do do Woodrow. Robinson do do McAdam do do Frost. 12-15 J. Clancy do do Gerrie do do Robinson. 12-10 J. McGill do do McFarlane do do O'Leary. 3 J. McAdam do do Robinson do do Shannon. The following were elected : Messrs. W. Bell (21 votes), T. R. Whiteside (19 votes), J. Keith (14 votes), J. Clancy (15 votes). Messrs. Gibson, Hagerman and the secretary acting as scrutineers by appoint- ment of the meetirg. The members of the executive committee then retired to elect the officers for the year; on their return the secretary stated to the meeting the following elections: Chairman, Mr. W. Bell ; vice-chairman, Mr. John Keith ; treasurer, Mr. S. Crane; secretary, (pro tern) G. W. Wood. The thanks of the meeting were tendered to Mr. Keith for his past efficient ser- vices as chairman, on the motion of Mr. Aikens, seconded by Mr. Gerrie. The following new members were admitted : Messrs. A. M. Bowman, C. W. Eiwards and T. Grinnell. The following nominations for now members were received ; Mr. W. Johnston, by Mr. W. Bell ; J. Wiggins, by Mr. Whiteside. On the motion of Mr. Woodrow, the thanks of the meeting were presented to the secretary. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Minutes of the special executive committee meeting for the election of officers, King Street Bast; and Peppiatt & MoDonogh, Parkdale. The name of J. B. West was left over in order that the secretary might ascer- tain if he has a coal yard. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 591 Hugh Spence. The secretary read a letter relative to the assessment due during the time hot was in default, in which ho requested the committee to reconsider their decision. After asrain discussing the matter, it was Resolved, That the committee could not alter their previous decision ; that the&a jwsessments to the gratuity fund, made during the time Mr. Spence was in default, must be paid by him. Albright & Smith . A letter from them was read relative to statistics The secretary was instructed to reply that he could not obtain the information requested. Treasurer submitted assessment No. 7 of gratuity fund received from the seo- xetary of the Board of Trade for payment. Resolved, That the treasurer be instructed to pay the same for members in good. standing. Caretaker's Widow. Moved by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. Fairbank, and resolved, That the' sum of $10 be paid to the widow and family of the late caretaker of the Board of Trade Rooms, oat of the funds of the branch. Prices . Moved by Mr. Crane, seconded by Mr. Bailey, and resolved, That the present prices remaia without alteration until further notice, and that "the secretary send a notice to thi-j effect to each member of the branch. Secretary's account to 24th April, for $31, passed and approved. Entrance Fee. The secretary was instructed to look up the minute referring to memberB* entrance fee for the Conger Co. re Peppiatt & MoDonogh. W . BELL, Chairman. Executive Committee meeting 14th May, 1837. Present .—Mr. Keith in the chair; Messrs. J. R. Bailey, J. Claucey, T. R. "Whiteside, Gibson, S. Crane and E. Rogers. Special meeting called to consider prices in consequence of the duty on anthra- cite being taken off by the Government. Notice of motion was given by Mr. Rogers to fix prices. Gratuity Funds. The amount reported by the secretary as required for assessment No. 7 passed j&t the last meeting is $153. Prices and Waterworks Tenders. Resolved, That a special executive committee meeting to consider prices and the waterworks tenders be called for 2Igt instant at 11 o'clock. W. BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 2lst May, 1887. Present : — Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. Crane, John Keith, P. Bums, Whiteside, Clanoey, Blias Rogers, Brown (J. R. Bailey), Gibson, Fairbank, Litster ing that no contracts be made to extend beyond 1st July next, delivery, it is under- fitood that this resolution referred to applies not only to retail trade but also to trade with small dealers. — Lost. Agents and Offices. Resolved, That these matters be brought up at the next meeting for discussion* Unfinished Contracts. Moved by Mr. Eogers, seconded by Mr. Gibson and resolved, That all unexpired contracts on Ist May last, both to consumers and dealers bo reported to the secretary before next meeting on 7th June, and that the secretary Bend a notice to each member to this effect. T. McConnell & Co. still in default. The secretary was instructed to notify the shippers on the other side that this firm is still in default and request them to govern themselves accordingly. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive Committee meeting held 6th June, 1887. i'resenf:— Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair; Messrs. G-ibson, Clancey, Wm. MoGill, McArthur, Johnson (P. Burns), S. Crane, E. Eogers, C. J. Smith, Coleman, J. E. Bailey, J. Keith and T. E. Whiteside. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. Special meeting called to fix prices for the Government tenders. Oovernment Contract. Besolved, That a condition of this and future purchases of contracts be, that a cheque be given at once for the amount of purchase, which is to be held by the tre»« surer until the contract is signed. Prices. Moved by Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Keith, and resolved. That the price for egg and grate be made $5.25 per ton net; stove and nut $5.60 per net ton, for Eeformatory, Central Prison and Asylum ; Straitsville, $5.25 ;. Fairmount, $4.75 per net ton, for the Asylum; Straitsville, $5.50; Fairmount, $5 per net ton, for the Central Prison, Eeformatory; soft, 10 tons, at $5.50 per net ton. Purchase awarded to the following : — Soft coal, to C. J. Smith, for 56 cents per ton, or $677.60. Hard coal, to B. Eogers & Co., for 41 cents per ton, or $721.60. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 11th June, 1887. Present : — Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. J. E. Bailey, Gibson, T. E. White- side, Johnson (P. Burns), Eobinson, McArthur, E. Rogers, C. J. Smith, Coleman, Coulter, S. Crane and J. Keith. Special meeting called to fix prices for the Public Schools tenders. 3—38 £94 MiNurss. Moved by Mr. Crane, seoonded by Mr. Bailey, That the coal be the present retail prices and that the wood prices be left open. , Moved as an amendment by Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Whiteside, (4 That there be a price fixed for the coal and that it be bid for. f The amendment was lost and the original motion was carried. Prices for Knox College Tenders. Moved by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. Keith, That the prices be tull card prices. — Carried. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. l^i Executive committee meeting held 18th Jane, 188*7. Present : — Mr. William Bell in the chair ; Messrs. Keith, Clancey, CraHC, GribsoB, B. Rogers, Johnston (P. Barns) and Coulter. Special Meeting, This was a special meeting and the minutes were not read. Hospital Tenders, Hesolved, That the following be the prices : — Egg and grate $5.50 per nat ton Stove b.^5 do do Soft 5.26 do do Lehigh, $1 per net ton higher in all sizes. Awarded to E Rogers & Co. for $296. Net Ton. Moved by Mr. Rogers, seoonded by Mr. Gibson, That the prices on above and all contracts be per net ton. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 28th June, 1887, Present : — Mr. T. R. Whiteside in the chair; Messrs. Gibson, J. R. Baildy, Orane, Ql&nGey, Whiteside. Minutes. This being a special meeting it was resolved, That the reading of the minutes be dispensed with. Treasurer's Report. The treasurer reported the amount in hand to be $2,470.14. Accounts. The following accounts were submitted and passed : T. Blackett Robinson, printing, $10 ; the secretary's aoooant to 24th June, $33.38. Prices. Moved by Mr. Crane, seoooded by Mr. Bailey, That prices remain as they are until further notice, and that the matter be brought before a special meetiag to be called for Saturday, 2nd Jaly, at 11 o'clock. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. TORONTO COAL BBANCH. 595 Execative committee meeting held 2nd July, 188T. Present: — Mr. W» Bell in the chair; Messrs. B. Eogers, Fairbank, Keith, Whiteside, Crane, W. McGill, Clancey, Johnston (P. Barns), J. R. Bailey, MoAjthnr Gibson, C. J. Smith, Mr, Marshall, Mr. Cowan. Moved by Mr. Bailey, seconded by Mr. Crane, That Mr. Cowan (who is about opening a dock in Toronto) be allowed to bo present and tender for the Government contract. — Obrried. Minutes of 11th, ISchand 28th June read and confirmed. Mr. Spencers Asses^ent, This matter was again brought before the committee for re-consideratioQi bat it -was unanimously Resolved, That the Coal Trade Branch could not pay the assessment to the gratuity fund while Mr. Spence was in default, but he might send a letter embodyinj^ kis requests ^ Prices. Resolved, That prices remain as at present until l»t August next, and that no orders be taken in the meantime for delivery after that date. This resolution to apply to wholesale as well as retail trade. A copy of the resolution to be sent to each member. W. F. Johnston. The chairman stated to the meeting that Mr. Johnston had taken a partner, and it was Resolved, That the secretary write Mr. Johnston to ascertain the alteration (^ his firm, and request his now partner to take the aflSdavit. A. McArthur, Jan., stated that he had succeeded to the business of Eobinson & McArthur. Resolved, That the secretary write Mr. Robinson and notify him that it wil bo neoeseary, owing to the dissolution, for him to make application to be elected a member of the Coal Trade Branch, paying the usual initiation fee. Government Tenders, Resolved,- That khe price be on hard coal 25 cents per ton off present retail prices, namely, stove and nut, $^.75 ; egg and grate, $5.50 per net ton ; soft eoal, ♦5.26 per net ton ; long hardwood, $5.50 per cord; long pine, $4 per cord; Charcot, $1.50 per barrel. For delivery of coal after December 1st, that prices be 25 cants per ton higher. The above to apply to Government contract as above only. Lehigh coal, $1 per ton higher on all sizes. Awarded to the Conger Coal Co. for $6 10, all other tenders to be 26 cents extra. House of Industry, Resolved, That the prices be $5.75 per net ton for stove, $5.50 per ton for egg', $6.25 per ton for soft, either for present delivery or at yard during winter. Awarded to Mr. John Keith for $160. Library Tenders, No special prices were fixed . WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. General meeting held 4th July, 1887. Present : — i/k:. W. Bell in the chair. Messrs. J. McGill, Lackie, Whiteside, Barber, Sharp, Shannon, T. Bell, Higgias, Cotts, McDougall, Dwan, Clancey, W. F. Johnston, Macfarlane, Frost, Westcott, H. Spence and T. Coulter. Minutes of last two meetings read and confirmed. 3— 38i 596 MINUTES. New Members. The following were passed and received ; — W. H. Lackie, J. Westcott, "W. Gos- nell & Bro., Peppiatt & McDonogh, J. B. West, W. Leak & Co. and M. Dwan ; (Gros- nell & Bro. boaght out Peacock & Jackson) ; (Peppiatt & McDonagh bought out Titus) ; (M. Dwan bought out N. McConnell) . H. 8, Raymore. An application for membership was read from Mr. JRaymore, but it was left over until he had been elected a member of the Board of Trade. School Contract. Mr. Richardson, a non-member, was referred to as having taken part of the school contract. The chairman stated he was acting as agent for Mr. W. McGill, but he promised it would be looked into. WILLIAM LEAK. Executive Committee meeting held 9th July, 1887. Present: — Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Whiteside, J. R. Bailey, S< Crane, J. Keith, Coleman for C. J. Smith, Elias Rogers. lyiinutes of last meeting read and confirmed with the following addition to the minutes relative to the Library tender, namely : That it is understood and agreed that the Library contract be awarded to Mr. Wm. Bell. Richardson and Wm. McGill and School Contract. The secretary was instructed to write to W^ McGill & Co., for an explanation regarding Mr. Richardson supplying the contract. H, Spenae and arrears of assessments to Gratuity Fund. Mr. Spence was present at his own request to make his own statement to the committee j upon hearing the same it was Resolved, That they could not alter their previous decision not to allow him his assessment to the gratuity fund while he was in default. Tenders — Custom Mouse, Post Office, Revenue Offices, Resolved, That the tenders be not bid for but left open at full card prices, namely %5.*Jb per ton for egg (hard) and 85.50 per ton for soft coal. Special Meeting. Resolved, That a special executive committee meeting be called for 3 o'clock on Thursday, 14th inst., and that the followiDg matters be considered : — Commission men ; prices to farmers ; branch offices ; prices for future delivery. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive Committee meeting held 14th July, 1887. Present : — Mr. W. Bell in the chtttr; 'Messrs. Fairbank, Keith, Whiteside and OUncey. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. W. F, Johnston and his agents. It having been stated that Mr. Johnston was employing agents, the secretary was instract^ to see him and inform him that this was against the rules. TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 597 Commission men. This matter was discnssed and it was considered advisable that no alteration be made in the rules. Prices to Farmers. Resolved, That no alteration from present prices, 75 cents ofif card prices, be made. Branch Offices. Besolved, That the secretary ascertain if there are any new oflEices being opened* which have not received the sanction of the committee. The Conger Company reported that they had taken Mr. P. Barn's office, No. 678 Young Street, as a branch office, which was duly registered. Prices for future delivery. Resolved, That as the attendance is small these be fixed at the next regular meet- ing on Tuesday next, 19th instant, at 4 o'clock. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, Executive Committee meeting held 19th July, 1887. Present : — Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Keith, Elogers, Whiteside, Claneey, Gibson, J. R. Bailey, Crane and Messrs. C. C. Ray & Cowan, of C. C. Ray & Co. Minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. C. C. Ray & Co, The secretary reported receiving their application to become members or the Coal Trade Branch, and it was Resolved, That they be elected, subject to complying with all the conditions. Jos. Little who has bought out E. Jackson, Toung Street, Yorkville, having sent in written application to become a member, he was duly elected on the usual con- ditions, W, F. Johnson & Co, ^ Permission was given to take orders at Mr. Johnson's (his father) store situated on the corner of Green and Bathurst Streets. Branch Offices. The following were allowed : F. W. Thompson, 359 J Queen Street West, Burned & McCormick, 479 Queen Street West, Mr. Dwan's Advertisement, The secretary submitted a copy of the advertisement to which his attention had been called in which Mr. Dwan offers to take orders to be delivered during winter. The secretary was instructed to notify Mr. Dwan to withdraw that portion of the advertisement immediately as it is against the rules. Division of Proceeds of Contracts, After some discussion it was Resolved, That the division be made in a similar manner to last year in accord- ance with minutes of 5th May and 20th July, 1886, namely pro rata among the im- porters according to the tonnage of hard coal for the year ending Ist May last, as shown by the Customs house books. Mr. Crane's Appeal. Mr. Crane gave notice of appeal to the Board of Trade against the beforenamed resolutioui S98 MINIJTKS. Disposal of Proceeds ef Contracts. Mr. Keith gave notice of motion, That in future the proceeds of conHracts be divided equally among the importers. Prices. Besolved, That the fixing of prices for future delivery after 1st August be left over until a special meeting to be held on 29th instant, at 3 o'clock, in order that it may previously be known what prices are made at the meeting to be held in New York on 28th inst. A^davits. JResolved, That the partners and all employees be required to take fresh affidavits respecting prices, rules and by-laws of the branch, and the secretary request the solicitor to prepare a form of affidavit for signature. Mr. Mills, 22 King Street East, It was named that Mr. Mills had purchased 1,000 tons of coal from an importer, and was soliciting orders for winter delivery for all winter at $6. The secretary was instrncted to investigate the matter. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, Executive committee meeting held 22nd July, 1887. Present : — Mr, W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Keith, Crane and J. E. Bailey. Messrs. Macfarlane, John McGill and Coulter were present to bring charges against Messrs. B. Eogers & Co., that their Young Street branch office had made a oontract for eight tons of coal at $6 per ton for delivery any time during the winter, and to be paid for as delivered. E. Rogers & Co.'s Charge. Besolved, That the secretary write Messrs. E. Eogers & Co., making this charge, and request that tbey will give immediate instructions to that officer to stop taking similar orders, which is a violation of the rules, Mr. Eogers was requested to bo present at a special meeting, to be held on the 23rd instant at 11 o'clock, to reply. Conger & Go's charge re Best & Fortier. The secretary reported that several orders had been taken by Best & Fortier to supply the Conger Co.'s coal any lime during the winter at $6 per ton, payment to be made on delivery, and a reduction to be made should prices be lowered. Besotted, That the Conger Co. be notified by the secretary to withdraw that agency immediately, and that Mr. Gibson or Mr. Fairbank be requested to be present at to-morrow's meeting, to answer this charge. Clerks in Office and Agents. The secretary was requested to obtain the names from each member duly cer- tified, in order that they may be registered and take the affidavit. Prices for future delivery. It was deemed advisable that these should be made as soon as possible, and that |i decision should be come to at the meeting to be held to-morrow morning. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 23rd July, 188*7. Present : — Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair. Mr. J. R, Whiteside taking the chair until Mr. Bell's arrival. Messrs. Bailey, Eogers, Whiteside, Clanoey, Keith and Gibson.^ TORONTO GOAL BBANOH. 59^ JE. Sogers & Go. — Charge re Yonge Street branch, for selling for all winter at $6« Bifolved, That they be fioed 95. Conger Co. and Best 4s Fortier. This was considered a breach of the rules, but action was deferred until next meetings In the meantime they were instructed to withdraw their agency. Assessment No. 8, Gratuity Fund. Besolved, That this be paid out of the fund of the branch ; amount, $166 ; 5^ WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 29th July, 1887. Present, Mr. W. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. 'S. Crane, T. E. Whiteside, J. Keith, daocey, Gibson, J. E. Bailey, E. Eogers. Mr. Wm. McGrid was also present. Minutes of meetings held 19th, 22nd and 23rd July, read and confirmed. Conger Co. and Best dk Fortier. A letter from the Conger Coal Company was read by the secretary, requesting that Best & For tier's office n^ight be made a branch office. Resolved, That as it would be a violation of the rules that request could not be granted. Treasurer's report. Amount on hand, $3,3*71.76. W. F. Johnston dc Co. Resolved, That they be not allowed to take orders at the store of Mr. Follifl^ Johnston, No. 556 Queen Street West, as it would be contrary to the rules. A. Mc Arthur, Jun. ^eso/yeti. That as it would be contrary to the rules to continue a part of Mr. Beavin's office, Queen Street West, as a branch, the same cannot be allowed, D Daniels. A charge was brought against Mr. Daniels for selling 5 tons nut coal to bo delivered by 1st January at 86, to be paid lor as delivered, as per receipt, now pro- dHced, obtained by the detective. Resolved, That the secretary inform Mr. Daniels, and request him to be present at the next committee meeting to answer the charge. A. Shannon da Co. The secretary was instructed to notify them that they must cease taking orders through Mr. Greenwood, or his branch office, Qaeen Street West, otherwise it will bo considered a violation of the rules. Prices. , Resolved, That the prices of coal be $6.50 per ton for stove and chestnut, and $6.25 per ton for egg and grate, for present delivery, to take effect Ist August next, and that 50 cents per ton discount be allowed for spot cash and present delivery. The price to small dealers to be one dollar per ton off; the same condition to apply subject to advance without notice. Amendment. The following was moved by Mr. Keith, which was lost : That the price of coal, until further notice, be $6.25 cash for stove and chestnut coal, and $6 per ton for grate and egg, and no coal be sold but for cash and present delivery at the above prices. Accounts passed : Mr. Bradley, $7.50 ; Secretary's account for the month, $40.38. THOS. E. WHITESIDE, Chairman pro tern. "600 MINUTBS. Executive committee meeting held 8th August, 18c 7. Present .-—Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Whiteside, J.Keith, Crane, Clancey, Cowan, ot C. C. Kay & Co., was also present. JD. Daniel's Charge. Mr. Daniels and his clerk were present hy reciuest to answer the charge. ■ Resolved, That the matter be left over until next meeting for decision what Bhall be done. Minutes of last meeting were now read and confirmed. The secretary reported on the following matters given to him to investigate :— Hewlitt & Bell are being supplied by T. Bell & Co. A. K. Duff, Arcade, Queen Street, are being supplied by P. Burns. Z, Atkinson, corner Carle ton and Parliament Streets, are being supplied by P. Burns. Best & Fortier, still being supplied by Conger Coal Co. Hanscombe. Ontario Street, are being supplied by J. R Bailey & Co. Resolved, That the secretary write to the dealers supplying above parties as named and request their attendance to answer the charge of employing agents with- out the consent of this committee at a special meeting to be called for Wednesday, 10th inbt., at 4 o'clock. Accounts passed : News, advertising, $4 ; Telegram, advertising, $2.40. PriceSi - ^ - , , . -..fik. Mr. Keith gave notice of motion that prices be re-considered at next meeting. Mr. Cowan, of C. C. Ray & Co., was requested by the chairman to state his views with regard to the disposal of the funds from the contracts, with a view to an understanding being arrived at by the parties interested. Upon hearing Mr. Cowan, it was Resolved, That a sub-committee be appointed, consisting of Mr. Keith and Mr. Cowan to wait upon the members of the executive committee regarding the same and report at next meeting. WM. BELL, Chairman. General meeting held Sth August, 1887. Present : — Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. T. Beamish, Cotts, W. Gosnell, J. Wescott. Dally, Woollatt, Pringle, Lackie, Vance, Mounce, Aikens, Woodrow, Peppiatt, R. Saulter, W. Leak. T. Bell, Bell & Crane, G. Sharp, Gerry, Dixon, Mao- dongail, Grinnell, Burns (P. & M. Co.), Claucy, McDonogh. The minutes of the last general meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. ^m. McGill, Richardson and the School Contract. The secretary stated tbat this matter had been satisfactorily explained to ihte «zecntive committee. Trade. After a conversation about the state of the coal trade and taking of orders for delivery for all winter, the meeting adjourned. Correct. JOHN KEITH. 3rd October, 1887. Executive committee meeting held 10th August, 1887. Present: — Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Keith, Gibson, Whiteside, Cran( Mr. Cowan, of C. C. Ray & Co., Clancey and B. Rogers. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. TORONTO COAL BEANCH. J. Bell & Go. and Mowlett & Bell. p^ Mr. J. Bell was present to answer the charge of employing Howlett & Bell as »g^nt8 without the consent of the executive committee. Mr. Bell stated that they had not been authorized to take orders for hie firm nor had they done so, which was considered satisfactory. Division of proceeds of contracts was again discussed and the report of the sub- committee received. Besolved, That the matter be left over until Mr. J. R. Bailey's return when a special executive committee meeting shall be called. Frices. Besolved unanimously, That the portion of the resolution about not taking orders «xcept for present delivery be rescinded and that members be allowed to take orders at $6 per ton for stove and chestnut and soft coal for grate purposes, and $5.75 per ton for egg and grate hard coal for future delivery if they care to take the risk. WILLIA.M BELL, Chairmm. Executive committee meeting held 11th August, 1887. Present : — Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Keith, B. Bogers, J. R. Bailey, Orane, Whiteside, Gibson, P. Barns, Clancey, W. Cowan, of C. C. Ray & Co. He-division of Proceeds of Contracts, Special meeting called to discuss again this matter. Moved by Mr. Rogers, seconded by Mr. Clancey, That the division be similar to last year. — Carried. Mr, Keith's notice of motion Me Disposal in future of Proceeds of Contracts. This was brought forward and it was Besolved, That it be left over for future consideration. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held Hth August, 1887. ....^ Present :—Kv. W. Ball in the chair; Messrs. Keith, Gibson, B. Rogers, White- «ide, Clancey and Mr. Cowan, of C. C. Ray «& Co. Minutes of meetings held 10th and 11th read and confirmed. Notice. The chairman stated that he had received a written notice from W. MoGill & Co, not to pay over the proceeds of the contracts as they had appealed to the Board of Trade against the decision of the executive committee. He understood that the treasurer had received a similar notice. Notify Mr. P. Bums. The secretary was instructed to notify Mr. P. Burns not to employ Mr. Baff m the west end and Mr. Atkinson, corner Parliament and Carlton Streets, as agents, as it is a breach of the rules to do so; also notify W. McGill & Co. regarding iir. Johnston's flour and feed store. Queen Street, to the same effect. W. BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 23rd August, 1887. j i Present : — Mr. Wm. Ball in the chair; Messrs. Rogers, Gibson, Whiteside, Keitk and Cowan (of C. C. Ray & Co.). €§8 MINUTBS. Wm. McQill & Co. The letter relative to forbidding of divisions of money on decisions of the ezecQ^ tiv6 oommittee at meeting of 11th August, 1887, was produced ; also a letter dated 20th August, 1887, tendering their resignation as members of the branch. On the motion of Mr. Eogers, seconded by Mr. Keith, Both letters were laid on the table. In the absence of the secretary Mr. Gibson acted as secretary pro tern. Assessment No, 9, Besolvedf That if the last call for gratuity fund insurance has not been paid that the president see the treasurer and have it paid, $174. WM. BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 30th August, 1887. Present: — Mr. Wm. Bell in tbe chair; Messrs. Whiteside, Keith, Gibson, S. Crane, J. E. Bailey, Mr. Cowan, of C. 0. Eay & Co., Mr. W. Bell, Jun., and Mr. Mo- !Farlane. Minntes of the last meeting read and confirmed. This being a special meeting called to fix a price for Parkdale Waterworks it Resolved, That the price be left open for each one to tender at any price they may choose. The following accounts were submitted and passed : — Mail, advertising account, $6; Bradley, time wages, $26.75; Bradley, half ton coal, $3; secretary's account to 24th August, 837.88. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 5th September, 1887. Present: — Mr. W. Bell in the chair ; J. E. Bailey, Gibson, Crane, Whiteside, JELeith, McArthur and Cowan, of C. C. Eay & Co. Minutes of last meetii>g were read and confirmed. City Tender. This was a special meeting called to fix prioes and dispose of the city tenders. Resolved, That the following be the prices: — Stove and chestnut - - - - - $5 75 Egg and grate - • - - • ' 5 50 Briar Hill - - - - - 5 60 Straitsville - - . - - 6 00 Long hardwood • • - • > 6 50 Long pine - - - - - 4 00 And that all tender alike. The tenders included supplies to fire halls, jail, registry offices, city hall and police court. The quantities were 500 tons stove, chestnut and egg, 340 tons Briar JOLill and Straitsville, 180 cotds long hardwood, 15 cords white pine, long. Grenadine Ice and Coal Co. The secretary reported he had rocoived a letter from the company applying ta Iwoome memberu of the Coal Trade Branch. Besolved, That they be received. TORONTO COAL BEANOH. Jacob Malloy. The secretary reported receiving a letter from this party who had taken the yard formerly occupied by Mr. Jos. Dilworth, No. 141 Queen Street West. Besolvei, That he be received. Account of Mr. W. J. Nelson, the solicitor of the branch, amounting to $28.35, was submitted, which was passed and ordered to be paid upon the secretary satis- fying himself as to its correctness. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, General meeting held 5th September, 188*7. Present : —Messrs. Vance, Wescott, Gerrie, Aikins, Woodrow, W. F. Johnston, Whiteside, West, McDonogh, Sharp, Cotts, Hagerman and Grinnell. No quorum. Owing to this, an informal meeting was held, Mr. Whiteside being voted into the chair. The general gtate of the coal trade was discussed and after several members had spoken the meeting separated. Executive committee meeting held Ist October, 188Y. Present: — Messis. Gibson, E. Kogers, J. R. Bailey, Clancey and Keith. In the absence of the presiflent, Mr. Gibson was voted into the chair. Special Meeting, The meeting was called specially to discuss prices. Prices Raised. On the motion of Mr. Keith it was unanimously resolved that the retail prices- of coal on and after Monday, 3rd October, be advanced to $6.25 per ton for stove and chestnut, 06 per ton for grate and egg, and dealers' prices be 75 cents off these prices on cars or in the yards. Farmers' Prices. JResolved, That the prices to farmers be 40 cents off above retail prices, coal and- "wood combined. Resolved, That where wood or soft coal is sold in connection with hard coal the price is to be : — Hard wood, long - - - - - - $6 00 per cord. do out and split • - - - - 6 50 do Pine, long 4 00 do do cut and split - - - - ^ -5 00 do Slabs - - 3 50 do Soft coal for steam - - - - - -4 50 per ton. do do grates - - - - 6 00 do WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, Executive committee meeting held 12th October, 1887. Present : — Mr. W. Bell in the chair; Messrs. Gibson, Clancey, J. Keith, Lytl© (S. Crane & Co.), Cowan (C. C. Eay). Special meeting called to consider the advisability of raising prices. Resolved, On the motion of Mr. Keith, That on and after Saturday the 15th instant the price of stove and chestnut coal be raised to $6.50 per ton, and egg and grate $6.25 per ton. Best soft $6.25^ JBlossburg, $6.00 ; 15 cents per ton on quarter and half tons; 604 MINUTKS. Notice in Newspapers. The secretary was instructed to have notices inserted in the papers the dayj before the rise, explaining the reason for the rise in prices. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 29th October, 188*7. Present : — Messrs. J. K. Bailey, E. Rogers, Gibson and J. Keith. In the absence of Mr. Bell, Mr. Gibson was voted into the chair. Treasurer's Resignation. Mr. Crane having tendered his resignation as treasurer, Resolved, That the resignation of Mr. Crane be accepted, and that Mr. White- ^ side be appointed treasurer pro tern. That Mr. Whiteside and the secretary be appointed to audit the treasurer's accounts before taking over the books and money in hand. Re McOonnell & Go. and city contract. Resolved, That Mr. Keith be appointed to examine the coal being supplied by T. McConnell & Co. for the city contract, WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, Executive committee meeting, held 1st November, 1887. Present .-—Mr. W. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. J. Keith, E. Rogers, Gibson, J: R. Bailey and H. L. Fairbanks. Treasurer Appointed. The secretary reported that Mr. Whiteside had expressed his willingness to accept the office of treasurer and that Mr. Crane was preparing the accounts and having the bank book balanced by the bank to enable him to make the transfer to Mr. Whiteside. Raising Prices. Moved by Mr. Keith, seconded by Mr. Gibson, and Resolved, That a special meeting be called for Wednesday, 2nd November, to ^ consider about raising prices. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, General meeting held 3id October, 1887. Pr«sen< .-—Messrs. J. Keith, Sharp, Aikens, Beamish, Abbs, Lackle, West, Grinnell, Humphries, Higgins, Cross, Dally, J. Millory and Johnston. Chairman, In the absence of the chairman of the branch, Mr. Keith was voted into the chaiTf Minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Several members spoke relative to the recent advance in coal, and expressed their views. , The general feeling was that the executive committee had done what was for •tne best interest of the branch in raising retail prices 25 cents per ton. After a conversation respecting the trade generally the meeting adjourned. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, TORONTO COAL BEANOH. 605- Bxecutive committee meeting held 2nd November, 188ti Pres nt .•—M.r.W. Bq\\. in the chair ; Messrs. J. R. Bailey, Keith, Crane and Gibson. This beins: a special meeting called to consider the raising of prices, no minutes of previous meetings were read. Prices Raised. Resolved, That the prices be raised 26 cents per ton on all sizes, namely on and after 3rd November : Stove and chestnut - - - - - $6 75 per ton. Grate and egg -.. -^ --6 50 do Best soft 6 50 do Blossburg .--. .. <-6 25do Where wood or soft coal is sold in connection with hard coal, the prices to be- fall retail prices, dealers 75 cents per ton off above retail prices. Raising Price of Wood. The chairman and the secretary were deputed to wait upon Mr. C. J. Smith and other members interested in wood relative to an advance of 50 cents per cord at retail, and if all were unanimous regarding this raise, the secretary was instructed to send notices to the members advising them of the same. Lake Freight. Mr. Rogers proposed that unanimous action should be taken, viz : The im- porters relative to fixing the rate of freight on coal from the other side to Toronto. No decision was, ho^vt ever, come to in the matter. WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, General meeting held 7th November, 1887. Present : — Mr, W. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. John McGill, Gerrie, Yance, J» Dilworth, Woodrow, Sharp, Cotts, O'Leary, Milloy, Mounce, Humphries, Lackie, Abbs, Hagerntan, Gosnell, Dally, Johnston, Rolston and Thompson. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. A general conversation took place relative to the trade, and after an hour's dis- cussion the meeting adjourned, WILLIAM BELL, Chairman. Executive committee meeting held 15th November, 1887. Present: — Mr. W. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. J. R. Bailey, E. Rogers, T* R» Whiteside and J. Keith. Minutes of 5th September, 1st, 12th and 29th October, Ist and 2nd November, read and confirmed. Lister's advertisement at $5.75 and $6.00, and Grange Supply Company adver- tisement circular. The seretary reported that they had been attended to and that they would bo discontinued. Prices of Wood. Resolved, That prices until further notice for: Hardwood, long $6.50 per cord. do cut and split 7.00 do Pine, long 5.00 do do cut and split 5.50 do And that the secretary notify each member of this. 608 MINUTKB. Treasurer reported receiving $3,122.80 from Mr. Crane, the late treasurcpv which he has deposited with the Dominion Bank to the credit of the branch. Hill & Weir's account, $3.26, for printing, was passe.! and ordered to be paid •! WILLIAM BELL, Chairman, Executive committee meeting held 2nd December, 188f . Present : — Mr. William Bell in the chair ; Messrs. J. Keith, Gibson, J. R. Bailey,| C. J. Smith, Cowan of C. C. Ray & Co. This was a special meeting called by request. A conversation took place as to the advisability of raising prices, and a notio«| of motion was given to alter prices at the next meeting to be held at 7 o^lock Moa« day, the 5th inst. WILLIAM BELL, Ghairman. Executive committee meeting held 5th December, 188*7, (before the generaij meeting). Present: — Mr. Wm. Bell in the chair; Messrs. J. R Bailey, Gibson, Clanty^l Cowan, of C. C. Ray & Co. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Prices. The notice of motion to alter prices was brought up and after its discussion it] was resolved, That prices be left as they are for the present. Report. The secretary submitted his annual report of the branch for the year which wan' passed, to be read at the annual meeting. Assessment to Gratuity of Board of Trade. A letter was read by the secretary received from the secretary of the Board af| Trade advising another assessment. Resolved, That the assessment be collected from the members of the Coal Traild] Bruioh individaally by the Board of ¥rade. THOS. R. WHITESIDE, Chairman. Annual meeting held 5th December, 1887. Present: — Mn W. Bell in the chair ; Messrs. J. R. Bailey, Gibson, Cowai Mcrance, Clancy, McFarlane, J. Mc.Gill, Jos. Dilworth, Cross, J. Aikins, T. R4^ WhitbBide, Hagerman, Cotts, C. J. Smith, Gosneli, McDougall, Little, Frost, Sharpi McFarlane, Abbs and Coulter. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed. Secretary's account showing present number of members of the branch to 74, and treasurer's balance in hand, $575.27, were read and passed, aad ordered to filed. Election of executive committee for ensuing year was then proceeded witl and the following nomioations were made: — Messrs. J. R. Bailey, Elias Rogei S. Crane, R. E. Gibson CConger Co.) and Jas. Cowan (C. C. Ray & Co.) were elected by acclamation. TOBONTO COAL BRANOH. 607 Nominations. Mr. Mounce nominated by Mr. Frost. Mr. Teskey nominated by Mr. McFarlane. Mr. Cross nominated by Mr. Clancey. Mr. J. E. Whiteside nominated by Mr. R. B. Gibson. Mr. J. H. Thompson nominated by Mr. Coulter. Mr. C. J. Smith nominated by Mr. R. E. Gibson. Mr. A. MoArthur nominated by Mr. Cotts. Mr. T. Coulter nominated by Mr. Cowan. Mr. J. Keith, nominated by Mr. J. E. Bailey. Scrutineers, Resolved, That Messrs. Hagerman and Biggins act as stmtineers. Elected. Messrs. C. J* Smith, T. R. Whiteside, T. Coulter and F. H. Thompson, The executive committee then retired to elect their officers. Presgnf;— Messrs. J. E. Bailey, E. B. Gibson, Cowan, C. J. Smith, T. R White side, T. Coulter and F. H. Thompson. Election, Chairman— Mr. T. E. Whiteside proposed by Mr. Bailey. Deputy Chairman — Mr. Cowan proposed by Mr. Gibson. Treasurer — Mr. Gibson proposed by Mr. Bailey. Secretary — G. W. Wood proposed by Mr. Cowan. On the return of the committee to the general meeting the names of the officers were announced. Thanks. On the motion of Mr. Gibson, seconded by Mr. Cowan, and carried unanimously a hearty vote of thanks was tendered to Mr. Bell the lat« chairman for his constant and faithful attention to the duties of that office. Adjournment, It having been moved and seconded that the meeting do now adjotirn, it waa carried unanimously. Executive committee meeting held 13th December, 1887. Pnsent;— Mr. T. E. Whiteside in the chair; Messrs. Cowan, Thompson and Coulter. Minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed . J. B. Wesfs Assessment. A letter was read from Mr. Wills, Secretary of the Board of Trade, stating that Mr. West had paid Nos. 7, 8, 9 aad 10 himself when he was a member of the bran^, BY-LAWS AND SPECIAL RULES OP THE COAL TRADE BRANCH OF THE) TOROJSTO BOARD OF TRADE. Submitted by Mr. G. W. Wood, secretary, in his evidence before the Committer., 23rd March, 1888, as the recognized regulations by which the Goal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade was governed to date. CONSTITUTION. Article I. — This Association shall be known as the Coal Trade Branch of th« Toronto Board of Trade, and shall be composed of such coal dealers as are memboni TORONTO COAL B1ANCH. 611 of the said board, and who are duly elected membars of the branch by a majority ^f the members present at a properly ooostitated meeting thereof, and who shall have paid tbeir initiation fee to the said branch. The amount to bd paid as initiation fee shall not exceed the sum of twenty dollars, and a register shall be kept of tho names of the members enrolled from time to time. Article II. — The officers of the branch shall be an executive committee, consis- ting of nine members, ot whom fisre shall be owners or lessees of docks and yards ia the city of Toronto, and four who have yards in the city of Toronto, but who need not have docks. Only one member ol each firm shall be eligible as a member of the executive committee. Four shall form a quorum. Article III. — The executive committee shall be elected annually by ballot, at the annual meeting to be held in December in each year, of which due notice shall be given by the secretary. Article IV. — The executive committee, immediately after this election, shall elect from among their number a chairman, deputy-obairman and treasurer, who shall hold their respeotivre offices until others shall be elected at the next annual meeting in December in their stead, or until they shall be removed from office or shall vacate the same, and shall also appoint a secretary, who shall hold office during pleasure of the committee. Article V. — It shall be the duty of the executive committee to pass such special •rules and resolutions as may from time to time be deemed necessary in the interest of the trade. Article YI. — It shall be the duty of the executive committee further to fix prices for coal, and change the same from time to time as in their judgment the best interests of the trade demand, and instruct the secretary to notify all the members of the branch promptly of such action, and the prices so fixed shall be the prices at which coal shall be sold by all the members of this branch, and not otherwise, and the exe- cutive committee comes under an obligation to submit at any time, at the request of the council of the Board of Trade, for its consideration, a statement showing the per- centage of profit being made by members of the branch, and the council may make a deliverance thereon. Article VII. — The secretary ahall not be interested or engaged in the coal busi- ness, and shall be paid for his services. Article VIII. — Tho regular meeting of the branch shall be held on the first Monday in each month, at such time aad place as the executive may direct. The executive committee shall meet on Tuesday of each week at four p.m. Article IX. — Special meetings of the branch or executive committee may be -called by the chairman at any time, and must be called by him upon a written re- quest of three members in the case of the executive committee, and seven members in the case of the branch . Article X. — The executive committee of the branch shall fill any vacancies in their number arising from any cause, who will hold office until next election. Article XL — All motions and resolutions of the branch shall be decided by a majority of the members present, and fifteen members shall constitute a quorum. Article XII. — The constitution or by laws of the branch may be altered or amend- ed at any of the executive committee meetings, on notice to that eflfeot having been given at a previous meeting, such alteration or amendment to the constitution or by- laws being subject to the approval of the council of the Board of Trade. Article XIII. — Any charges of violation of the constitution, by-laws or rules of the branch must be reported to the secretary in writing, and it shall be his duty to investigate such charges under instructions from the executive committee ; it shall be his privilege to examine the books of the accused ; he thall also be allowed to re- quire from the accused a written denial to the charges preferred, or an assent to the same. In the event of any accused member either refusing to permit an examination of his books by the secretary, or refusing to give a written denial or assent to the charges, it will be assumed as an acknowledgment of the correctness of the ohargea made. 3— 39i 612 MINUTES. Article XIV. — The secretary's report in reference to any alleged violation of tho rules or by-laws of the branch, shall be made in writing to the executive committee. In cape such committee shall decide that any such charge so preferred is sustained, the member eo found to have violated any of the rules of the branch shall be deemed in default, and liable to suspension or expulsion by a vote of the executive commit- tee. An expelled member shall forfeit all claim on the funds of the branch. Any member so suspended or expelled, deeming himself aggrieved, shall have the right of appeal first to the branch, or subsequently to the council of the Board of Trade ; such appeal must be made in writing, addressed to the secretary, and the decision of ihe council shall be final. BY-LAWS . I. — It shall be the duty of the chairman to preside at the meetings of the branch, . and during his absence the duty shall fall upon the deputy-chairman. 11. — The secretary shall keep full minutes of the meetings of the branch, con- duct its correspondence, and prepare its annual report under the direction of the executive committee. Ill, — The treasurer shall take charge of the funds of the branch, disburse the same on the order of the executive committee, countersigned by the chairman, and shall report at all regular meetings, and his accounts shall be open to inspection at all proper times. IV. — No proxy vote shall be allowed. V. — At all meetings of the branch or executive committee, the following shalh be the order of business when not changed by the chairman or deputy-chairman :- Call to order. * Reading minutes of previous meeting (which may be dispensed with hyi resolution). Reports of secretary and treasurer. Unfinished business. General business. VI. — Every member of the executive who may have occasion to speak, shalj rise and address the chair. All motions shall be made in writing. No person shall interrupt another while speaking, and all persons who may have once spoken to an] motion shall, prior to speaking again, obtain permission from the presiding officer^ It shall be lawful, however, for the presiding officer at any period of the meeting announce that the subject is open for conversational discussion, and in such case this rule shall not apply. VII. — The presiding officer shall be judge of all questions of order and procedure^ and when the rules of the branch, or cf propriety, are infringed upon, he may call to order the transgressing member, who shall thereupon take his seat ; but an] member may appeal to the branch, and if seconded in such an appeal, the majorit] of the members present shall decide. VIII. — All rules of order or proceedings provided for by this constitution an( by-laws shall be held to by the branch and the executive committee, as far as the] may be applicable. IX. — All coal thall be sold direct by dealers themselves or their regular salarie employees, and all such salaried salesmen shall be duly reported to the executive oommittee for their approval. No commissiODS or rebates shall be allowed directlyi^ or indirectly, to middle men or others. SPXOIAL RULES. I. — Any member of the branch who shall sell, vend, barter or exchange, oi offer to Hell, vend, barter or exchange, or suffer or permit a member or members o| any firm, company or association of which he is a member, or any workman, employeej or agent employed by him or any such firm, company or association to sell, vendj barter or exchange, or offer to sell, vend, barter or exchange, anthracite coal, bituminous coal, or wood in oonneotion with anthracite coal, to or with any personJ TORONTO COAL BRANCH. 61$ firm, corporation, society, institution or other body whatsoever, within the limits of the city of Toronto, or within a radius of five miles thereof, at a lesser price or sum or rate than the price, snm, or rate from time to time fixed by the executive com- mittee, or otherwise in violation of the rules and reejulations made by eaid commit- tee in reference to the sale of anthracite coal, or bituminous coal or wood in con- nection with anthracite coal, shall, for the first breach or offence, forfeit and pay a fine of not less than $100, which shall ba payable forthwith to the treasurer, and shall form part of the general funds of the branch; and in case of a second breach or offence, or in case of the non payment of the said fine for a first offence, shall forth- with be expelled by said committee from the branch. The investigation into any charges against a member for violation of this by-law shall be subject to the provisions of Articles X1£I and XIV of the constitution, save as heiein otherwise provided. II.— Each member shall forthwith, and any proposed member shall, prior to his aumission into the branch, make a solemn statutory affirmation or declaration before a commissioner for taking affidavits, &c., to the effect, or in the words here- under written ; and such affirmations or declarations, when so made or affirmed, shall be delivered to, and kept by the secretary, subjact to the order of the executive committee. Any member refusing to make such affirmation or declaration shall be liable to expulsion by a vote of the executive committee. Statutory Declaration . " I have carefully read the constitution and by-laws and special rales of the asso- ciation known as the Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of frade, and that 1 "will, so long as I continue a member of said association, truly, faithfully and honestly observe, perform and keep the provisions and terms thereof, and shall not commit or attempt to commit or allow others on my behalf to commit or attempt to commit any secret or other evasion or violation thereof." 111.— Clubs for delivery at different places got up by churches, societies, fac- tories, institutions, employees or others shall not be taken except at regular card rates, and no concessions given any officer, school teacher or others. IV. — Delivery to be considered finished when coal is dumped down, or where cart can get easily alongside and carter shovel off; extra work beyond this charged at 25 cents per ton, and no employee to do extra woi k for a fee. V. — Bagging or basketing coal charged for at the rate of 40 cents per ton. VL — No order shall be entered for an indefinite quantity for future delivery, but shall be for a fixed quantity. V^it. — Selling price as fixed from time to time shall be made public by card of prices hong up in each office. Vill — Coal taken from yards by farmers or others outside of regular dealers shall be sold at rate of not more than 40 cents per ton under current card prices. June, 1886. Ottawa, 23rd March, 1888. Dear Sir,— It has occurred to me since giving ray evidence this morning that you asked me the question if the moneys received from the premiums on contracts for last year were divided amongst all the importers (less ^), and I, without think- ing, answered in the affirmative. I should have named that Mr. Rogers, on account of being in the council, refused to take his share of the premium on the city con- tract (5600) . Yours truly, G. W. WOOD. 1^. Clarke Wallace, Esq., M,P. 614 AOUEEMBNTS. EXHIBIT 35a. COPY OF ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN CHISHOLM, PARRISH & CO., BUFFALO. N. Y , OF THE ONE PART, AND T. McCONJSELL &.] CO., lORONi O, OF THE OTHER PART. Messrs. T. MoConnell & Co., Toronto. Toronto, 2l8t July, 1887. Dear Sir, — We will furnish you fifteen thousand tons of coal of fully as good a quality as last year, only it to be well ecieened and cleaner than last year, delivered; in your sheds on your dock west of Yonge Street, Toronto, at four dollars and sixteen cents per net ton (via Lake Ontario) ; the charges from Charlotte, Fair Haven, Oswego-j or Sodus are to be as follows : Freight 25 cents per ton, harbor dues 5 cents per ton and discharging 25 cents per ton ; all other charges or advances on above charges- you are to pay. We agree to deliver fifteen thousand tons during the months of July and August,. 1887. It is understood we are not to be charged back, or any claim made on us for any deduction without we are notified on arrival of vessel. We will guarantee weights on condition that the weigh master be a disinterested- party. •J'he terms of payment are to be as follows : Three dollars per ton cash after the unloading of each vessel separately. Balance to be paid by notes on every three or four cargoes or at the end ot the month. Notes to be drawn at three months without interest, cash and notes to be deposited to Cbisholm & Parrish's credit here at the Quebec Bank, Toronto. You to give us a second warehouse receipt on the coal as soon as the contract is OOmpleted, tbe full fifteen thousand tons delivered. We allowing you to take from the pile as high as one thousand tons of coal but not allowing you to take more without payment of the one thousand tons already taken, that is at one dollar and sixteen cents per ton. The disinterested party who weighed the coal in, or some one satisfactory t( both of us, to weigh the same going out and to send us statement of weights daily or| weekly. B. Toronto, 8th July, 1886. Messrs. Chisholm & Parrish, Buffalo, N. Y. Gentlemen, — We received your telegram asking depth of water at our dock^ we answered from ten to eleven feet, also that you might ship three vessels per- week until our supply is in. We have secured a gang of men who can unload that quantity easily. Now, so that we may understand each other fully in the bargain that we made about coal, I understand that we are to have ten thousand tons hair> Atove and half nut coal at four dollars and twenty-five cents per net ton on our carts here^ figured in this way : Freight 20 cents, harbor dues 6 cents, hoisting 20 cents, dock- age 7 cents, and duty 60 cents. In case of freight going up we have agreed to bear^ the extra raise of same, except there come a raise of freight before we get our quantity in at four dollars and twenty -five cents net cost in our store delivered, except- ing the carting which we do with our own horses. Grate and egg coal twenty-fivfr cents less than above prices. Terms of payment one-half cash, the other half as coal is sold. Chisholm & Parrish to have a warehouse receipt for the quantity stored on dock but not for quantity stored in new building, but with an understanding I an^j to take from quantity on dock what I need to fill my orders and at the 15th of eacl month all that is taken from the pile is to be paid for in full, and I am not to pnyl any interest on first three months. We will take one thousand tons grate and egg,; Vaaking eleven thousand tons in all. Please ship one vetsel of grate and one of egg COAL— PRICKS. 6 5- soon as coDvenient. Please confirm this letter by writing ns an answer by return of mail. Yours respectfully, T. McCONNELL & CO. EXHIBIT 36a. EocHESTWi, N.T., 1st July, 1887. For the present the following prices are fixed for Wilkesbarre and Pittston anthracite coals, subject to conditions named in this circular, delivered. Gross Ton, Net Ton, 2,240 lbs. 2,000. r Broken $4 00 $3 57 ^u w* D- r^ T> J Egg 4 00 3 57 Charlotte, P. O. B. ^ g^^^ 4 .^5 3 ^9 l.Nut 4 25 3 79 Shipments made from all the mines owned and controlled by the Lehigh Valley Coal Company, including the Henry, Prospect, Exeter, Midvale, Ontario, Alden, Dor- rence and the celebrated Wyoming Colliery, also from the mines of the Franklin Coal Company. Conditions of the sale and shipment of coal. Terms cash. Settlement to be made within thirty days of the date of shipment* The coal is designated by the names within stated, which names are referred to and used in selling or stating price. Price of coal will be fixed by circulars from time to time and all coal will be charged at the circular prices at the time of shipment, regardless ot date of order. Coal delivered in and from cars, boats, or lake vessels, will be sold at the in- voice weights, as way-billed at the place of shipment. Yours truly, A. G. YATES. B. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Company, Coal Department, agency at Oswego, N,Y., IstNovember, 1887. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Cobourg. Gentlemen, — Our prices to-day are $4.75 per gross ton (f.o.b.) for grate and egg, and $5 for stt ve and chesnut, with 26 cents per ton off to regular customers . These prices are subject to change at any time without notice. A. G. COOK, Agent. 0. Agency, Oswego, N.Y., 29th April, 1887. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Cobourg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipment during the month of May will be as below on board vessels at Oswego, N.Y. :— Lump, $3.80 per gross ton ; Grate, $3.80 per gross ton ; Egg, $3.90 per gross ton ; biove, $4.25 per gross ton j Chestnut, $4.25 616 COAL. per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions printed on the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent. Lump, f.o b., $3.80. Add for freight, duty, unloading, &o., $1.76, Total cost at Cobourg, $5.55. D. Agbnct, Oswkqo, N. Y., Slst May, 1887. Messrs. Harqraft & Co., Coboarg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipment daring the month of June will be as below on board vessels at Oswego, N. Y. : — Lump, $00 per gross ton ; grate, $3.90 per gross ton ; egg, $3.90 per gross ton ; stove, 4.25 per gross ton ; chestnut, $4.26 per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions printed on the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent, E. A«ENOY, Oswiao, N. Y., Ist July, 1886. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Cobourg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipment during the month of July will be as l>elow on board vessels at Oiwego, N. Y. : — Lump, $00 per gross ton ; grate, $3.60 per gross ton ; egg, $3.60 per gross ton ; stove, $3.85 per gross ton ; chestnut, $3.85 per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions printed oa the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent, P. Aginct, Oswego, N. Y., 29th July, 1886. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Cobourg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipment from date and during the month of An- ^st will be as below on board vessels at Oswego, N. Y. : — Lump, $00 per gross ton ; grate, $3.75 per gross ton ; Qg^, $3.75 per gross ton ; stove, $4.00 per gross ton ; chest-] nut, $4 00 per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions | printed on the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent, G. AaiNOT, OswKGO, N. Y., 1st September, 1886. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Coboarg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipment during the month of September will be] as below on board vessels at Oswego, N. Y. : — Lump, $00 per gross ton ; Grate, $4| per gross ton; e{;g, $ i per gross ton ; stove, $4.25 per gross ton j chestnut $4.25 j per gross ton. Your order is solicited sobjact to the terms and conditions printed onj the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent, PRICKS. 617 Agency, Oswego, N. Y., let October, 1886. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Cobourg. The prices of Scranton coal for shipmont during the month of October will be as below on board vessels at Oswego, N. Y. :~Lump, $4.02 per gross ton ; grate, $4.25 per gross ton j egg, $4,225 per gross ton ; stove, $4.50 per gross ion; chestnut, $4.50 per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions printed on the opposite page. A. tt. COOK, Agent. As above : — Lump f. o. b., $4.02. Add, for freight, duty, wharfage, labor, screening, rent, interest, cartage, &o., $1.90. Gross cost of delivery to consumer at Cobourg, $5.92. I Corrected Circular. Agknoy, Oswkgo, N. Y., 1st August, 1887. Messrs. Hargraft & Co., Oobourg. The prices of Scranton coal tor shipment during the month of August will be as below on board vessels at Oswego, N. Y. : — Grate, $4.25 per gross ton ; egg, $4.25 per gross ton ; stove, $4.50 per gross ton ; chestnut, $4.50 per gross ton. Your order is solicited subject to the terms and conditions printed on the opposite page. A. G. COOK, Agent. EXHIBIT 37a. £ir-LAWS AND KULES GOYERNING THE LONDON COAL EXCHANGE, OF LONDON, ONT. Organized 1884. Executive :— President, George Eendell; Vice-President, Wm. Bowman; Seo- Tetary-Treasurer, A. D. Cameron ; D. McDonald, J. P. O' Byrne, James Sloan, Chas. JB. Hunt. preamble. Whereas, that at a meeting of a deputation from the Western Anthracite joint committee, from Buffalo, composed of Messrs. J. J. McWilliams, T. G. Smith, C. M. Underbill and J. H. Horton, held at the Tecumseh House, city of London, on Tues- day, 12th August, 1884, to confer with the local dealers in regard to the coal interest generally, and London in particular, it was agreed that an exchange should be formed by the London coal importers, and to be known as the " London Coal Exchange," whose object shall be to regulate prices from time to time, and other- wise protect the trade ; also, by its executive, to hear and determine upon all com- plaints or irregularities by any member or members of the exchange, when such complaints or irregularities have been properly made in writing, to investigate same, and if sustained by evidence adduced, shall report the same to the committee at Buffalo, who have undertaken and pledged themselves to carry out their part of the arrangement; which is, that supplies to the dealer or dealers found so violating the rules, shall be immediately stopped. Party chsrged with so violating, and refusing lo give the executive the information they demand, shall be considered «onclusive evidence that the charge is well founded, and shall be dealt with. Accordingly. 618 OOAL. In accordance, therefore, with the foregoing, an exchange has been formed, and the by-lawB and rales of said exchange are hereunto annexed and signed by its members. BY-LAWS. Name. — The name of this association shall be the *' London Coal Exchange," Management. — To consist of an executive eommittee of seven of its members, who shall be importers, and shall be elected annually by the exchange ; said execu- tive committee to have the power to fill any vacancy that may occur during the year. Election. — The executive shall elect from their number a president, vice-presi-s dent and secretary, and four shall form a quorum at its meetings. Duties. — The executive committee to have a general oversight of the business, make any changes in prices, and deal with all the matters affecting the business of the exchange. A majority of its members voting yea or nay, shall decide any ques- tion ; and the secretary shall promptly notify in writing every member of the- exchange of any alteration in prices. The president shall have power to call a meeting of the executive, when deemed necessary by him, or when requested by any two members of the executive. Voting. — All voting at meetings of either the executive committee or the exchange, shall be by ballot. When a member has partners in business, it is understood and agreed that in case of absence, he may be represented by one of his partners at meetings of either executive or exchange; but in any case the firm shall have but one vote. A majoiity vote of the members present to be final. Members' Fees. — All members of the association or exchange, shall pay an annual fee of $5 to the secretary, who shall deposit the amount so paid him, in Home ohariored bank or loan society, to the credit of the exchange, and shall only be drawn therelrom by cheque, signed by the president and countersigned by the secretary. New Members. — Any dealer desirous of joining the " exchange," must submit his application in writing, endorsed by a member of said exchange, and accompanied by the membership fee. He must be approved of by four members of the executivo to render him eligible for membership, and upon being duly elected, shall sign by-laws and rules. Meetings. — All meetings of the exchange shall be held at the place named in the notice calling such. Special meetings shall be called only upon the written request of three of its members, stating its object; and the secretary in giving jootice thereof, shall state therein for what purpose said raeeiing is called. Annatil meetings of the exchange shall be held on the first Tuesday in the month of April in each year, and tvery member shall be notified by the secretary, per circular, at least five days prior thereto. A book shall be provided, in which a true and fai thful record of the minutes and proceedings at meetings of the exchange and executive shall be entered, including — first, the by-laws, rules, &c., together with the signatures of all the members of the ^Exchange. Bemuneration.— The secretary shall be paid out of the funds of the exchange, auch sum or sums as the exchange may vote for his services. RULES. Contracts. — All members of the exchange shall be entitled to bid for contracts st uniform prices, as arranged by the executive. Prices. — The prices at the opening of the season shall be determined by the ex- change at its first annual meeting, and any change thereafter by the executive. Salf tons to be the same in propcrtion as tons, and quarter tons 10 cents additional. No change in prices shall be made from the figures decided upon at any previous meeting upon any pretext whatever, without first oalliog the executive together. BY-LAWS. 619* All qnotatioDB or offers outstanding at the time the executive have determined upon a change in prices, shall be immediately cancelled, that is, no quotation or offer made shall be left open for acceptance beyond the period of meeting, of which dealers have received notice. No order shall be accepted and entered for an indefinite quantity for future de- livery, but shall be lor a fixed quantity ; and prices for the season shall not be given guaranteeing coal at one price, unless paid for in advance, except to the colleges, public schools or city corporation. Parties teaming coal from yards, to be allowed 30 cents per ton off current rates for so doing. Prices to manufacturers for anthracite coal, shall be current rates, or as regu- lated from time to time by the executive. Ordinary retail sales shall be for cash ; and interest on all other sales shall be charged after 30 days, at the rate of seven per cent, per annum. B. Statements of cost of coal at London, for four months of 1887 and two monlhs of 1888, by Sunt Brothers, Coal and Commission Agents, per W. Bowman. London, Ont., 2nd April, 1888. Coal in June and July, 1887, cost as follows : — Grate and Egg. Stove, No. 4 and Ghestnut.-. $3 53 net.(Per gross ton, $3.95) (gross ton, $4.30) $3 84 net. 90 Freight 90 15: Unloading 15 25 Slack and screening 25 30 Teaming 30 $5 13 Cost delivered $5 44 86 30. Selling price in retail lots $6 50 85 8© Manufacturer's price 86 00 This does not allow anything for bad debts, which are sure to occur to a greater or less degree, nor office expense, rent of yard, insurance and interest on capital in- vested, nor advertising. C. London, Ont., 2nd April, 1888. Coal for November and December, 1887, coat as follows : — Grate and Egg. Store, No. 4 and Che6tnnt> ■ Per gross ton, $5.50 ; per net ton, $4 91 Gross ton, $5.50 ; per net ton, 84 91 1 03 Freight 1 03 15 Unloading 15 25 Slack and screening 25 30 Teaming 30 .86 64 Cost delivered 86 64 86 80. Eetail selling price 87 00 86 30 Manufacturer's price 86 50 620 CONSTITUTION. This does not allow anything for bad dobts, which are sure to occur to a greater -^r less degree, nor office expense, rent of yard, insurance and interest on capital in- vested, nor advertising. D. London, Ont., 2nd April, 1888. Coal for January and February, 1888, cost as follows : — Grate and Bgg. Store, No. 4 and Ohestnat. Gross ton, 84.75 ; net ton, 84 24 Gross ton, 05 ; net ton 84 46 1 03 Freight 1 03 15 Unloading 16 25 Slack and screening 25 30 ...Teaming 30 85 97 . $6 80. .Cost delivered 86 19 .Betail selling price 87 00 86 30 Manufacturer's price .86 50 This does not allow anything for bad debts, which are sure to occur to a greater or less degree, nor office expense, rent of yard, iusurance and interest on capital in- vested, advertising, &c. EXHIBIT 38a. CONSTITUTION, RULES AND BY-LAWS OP THE OATMEAL MILLERS* ASSOCIATION OP CANADA. CONSTITUTION. 1. This association shall be called the Oatmeal Millers' Association of Canada. 2. This association shall consist of all oatmeal millers or manufacturers of other products of oats in the Dominion of Canada who shall subscribe to the constitution and by-laws of this association. 3. The objects of this association shall be to foster all matters for the benefit of the members of the association and to protect them from all unjust and unlawful exactions, to reform abuses in the trade, to produce uniformity and certainty in cus- toms and usages of the trade, to promote a more enlarged and friendly intercourse among the members of the association and to acquire the stock of the Canada Oatmeal Siilling Company, Limited, or such portion thereof as to the executive committee may seem fit. 4. The affairs of the association shall be managed by an executive committee consisting of a president, vice-president and five directors to be elected by a general vote of the members of the association, a secretary who need not be a member of the association shall also be elected by a general vote of the members of the association, and a trousurer who shall be a member of the association. 5. The annual meeting of the association shall be held at such time and place as the general annual meeting of the Oatmeal Milling Company, Limited, is held. At «uoh meeting the officers of the association shall be elected by voie by ballot of the members present in person or by proxy; ten days' previous notice of the meeting ehall ba given by notice mailed to the respective add resses of the members as entered lin the books of the association. OATMEAL 62 L 6. If from any oause the aonnal meeting shall not be held on the above day, the aeeociation shall not be thereby dissolved, but the annual election of the officers and committees may be held at a special general meeting to be called for that purpose. 7. At all meetings of the association each person, firm or corporation shall be entitled to one representative and one vote. 8. This consiitution may be altered or amended at any annual meeting or any special general meeting called for that purpose by a vote of two-thirds of the mem- bers present in person or by proxy. Thirty days' notice of all amendments shall be given by the secretary to the members. 9. Special meetings of the association may be called at any time by the executive committee, giving not less than 10 days' notice of the same, and on the application in writing of any members of the association to the executive committee, buch special meeting shall be called. BY-LAWS. 1. Any person, firm or corporation in the Dominion of Canada in good standing, . doing business as oatmeal millers or manufacturers of other products of oats, shaii be eligible for membership. Applications for membership shall be in writing, signed by the applicant and upon the receipt of the same by the secretary, endorsed by two members of the asso- ciation as nominator and seconder, and upon the applicant signing the constitution and bylaws, he shall be entitled to receive a transfer of one share in the capital stock of the Canada Oatmeal Milling Company, Limited, upon paying into the associa- tion the par value of the amount paid up upon such share. DUTIES OF OFFICERS. 2. President — ^The president shall preside at all meetings of the association and of the executive committee, appoint all committees not otherwise provided for, and- shall be exofficio a member of al) committees. He shall, with the treasurer, sign all cheques and all official documents of the association. He shall also have a general oversight of the interests and welfare of the association. He shall have power to suspend all salaried officers and to temporarily employ others in their stead, but in every such case, he shall at once call a special meeting of the executive committee and submit the matter to them for final decision. He shall have power to call meetings of the executive committee at any time, and shall call special meetings upon the written request of two members of the ex- ecutive committee. At all meetings of the association or of the executive committee, he shall, in addition to his vote, as a member, have, in cas^e of a tie, a casting vote, 3. Vice-President — Incase of the absence of the president the vice-president shall fulfil his duties, and in case of the death of the president during his term of office, the vice-president shall be president until the next annual election of officers. 4. Secretary — The secretary shall conduct all correspondence of the association, and notify all officers and members of committees of the meetings of their respective committees. Give due notice of all the meetings of the association. Keep true records and minutes of all the meetings of the association, and of the respective committeis. Have custody of the seal of the association and affix the same to all official documents of the association. He shall have the custody of all papers, books and documents of the association. He shall collect all dues and assessments and all other moneys of the association, and hand the same over to the treasurer at least once in each week. He shall counter- sign all cheques of the association and perform such other duties as shall be directed by the executive committee. 5. Treasurer — The treasurer shall receive from the secretary all moneys of the association. He shall disburse all moneys upon the order of the executive com- mittee. All payments above the sum of $5 each shall be made by cheque, signed by the president and treasurer and countersigned by the secretary, and so soon as the 622 CONSTITUTION. moneys in his hands amount to the sum of $1,000 he shall deposit the same in a chartered bank (to be named by the executive committee) to the credit of the association. He shall keep regular and permanent accounts of all moneys received and disbursed. He shall render au account lo the executive committee whenever required so to do, and at the expiration of his term of office shall give an accurate statement and deliver to his successor all funds, books, papers and other property of the association in his possession. MBETINGS. 6. At a meeting of the association 10 members shall constitute a quorum. At a meeting of the executive committee four members shall constitute a quorum. No business shall be transac ed unless a quorum be present. The order of business at all meetings shall be es follows : — (1) Calling of the roll. (2) Reading and confirming minutes of previous meetings. (3) Report on credentials. (4) Report of officers. (5) Report of standing committees. (6) Report of special committees. (7) Elec- tions. (8) Unfinished business. (9) New business, 7. The executive committee shall have power to assess for all such sums as may be actually required for the general purpose of the association, eacti member shall pay such percentage of the total assessment as the quantity of meal allotted to the said member for sale and delivery bears to the total quantity of meal allotted to all the members for sale and delivery. 8. The association shall have power to expel any member for breach of any of the by-laws of the association upon a resolution to that effect being passed by a two- third majority of the members present in person or by proxy, at any general meeting of the association or at any special meeting called for that purpose. Provided that at least ten days prior to the meeting a notice signed by the president or secretary stating that a motion for the expulsion will be moved and specifying the day and hour and place of the meeting shall have been mailed prepaid and registered to the address of the member, as given in the books of the association, in respect of whose expulsion the motion will be made. SEAL. 9. The seal, the imprint of which is stamped upon the margin of this by-law shall be the seal of the association. AUDITORS. 10. Two auditors shall be appointed, one by a vote of the members of the associ- ation and the other may be appointed by the president, and it shall be their duty to audit the books of the association in January and July of each year and at any other times considered necessary. PROXY. 11. Any member of this association may appoint another member to act as his proxy for all meetings or any special meeting ot the association. AMBNDHBNT AND SUSPENSION OF BY-LAWS. 12. The by-laws of the association may be amended at any regular or special meeting called for that purpose of the association by a vote of two-thirds of the mem* bers present, in person or by proxy. Amendments must be sent in in writing to the executive committee, and by them reported to the association and notices that they will be acted on must be included in the notice of the said meeting. Any by-law may be subpended for one meeting by the votes of two-thirds of the members present in person or by proxy. 13. The cxecitivo committee shall have power from time to time to revise and change the established price of oatmeal, and it shall be the duty of the secretary to give immediate notice of such action by telegram to all the members of the assooia- OATMEAL. 623 tion, such telegram to be Bent to the addresses of the members as given in tiie books of the association. To establish such a change the sanction of a majority of the executive is required, and such decision shall be binding upon all members of the association. 14. The relative prices of oatmeal as fixed by a general meeting of this associa- tion are not to be changed, nor is any change to be made in the apportioned amount of oatmeal to be manufactured by each mill except by vote of four-fifths of all the members of the association, then present in person or by proxy, at a regular meet- ing of the association, or a special meeting called for such purpose. 15. Members of this association shall sell meal for home consumption as follows : — (a.) For quantities from a full car load down to 25 barrels to be delivered at one time at an advance of 15 cents per barrel upon schedule car load prices. (b.) In quantities from 25 barrels down to five barrels to be delivered atone time at an advance of 30 cents per barrel upon schedule car load prices. (c.) In quantities less than five barrels to be delivered at one time at an advance of 65 cents per barrel upon schedule car load prices. (d) Any member ot the association shall be at liberty to allow a deduction of 20 cents per barrel on goods sold in sacks, sacks included, and when the buyer sup- plies the sacks, a deduction of 30 cents per barrel may be made from schedule barrel prices. (e.) No F. O. B. price can be quoted except at points where a mill is located and then for home trade only and at prices on schedule. (e ) Bach member shall be allowed to employ agents to sell his meal ; provided however that no agent shall sell at a less price than the price fixed by this associa- tion ; and provided further that no member shall allow any agent a commission to exceed 5 cents per barrel on sales of a car load or upwards, and lO cents per barrel •on sates of a less quantity than a car load. (/.) In shipping mixed car loads schedule prices must be charged on oatmeal, 120 barrels being considered a car load. (^) No oatmeal shall be shipped from any station or wharf until sold. (/i.) All shipments of car loads to be made with bill of lading attached to sight draft which will be held for payment. (i ) On sales of quantities less than a car load credit may be given nottoexceed 30 days. (16) Members of this association shall sell oatmeal in car loads lor the differ- ent divisions at prices not less than the following schedule of prices: — (a) For standard oatmeal in. Division No. 1 — Consisting of that part of the Province of Ontario between Port Arthur and Kingnton, Kingston and all stations oq the K. & P. Ry., being included, Port Arthur not being included, at $4.25 per barrel. Division No. 2 — Consisting of thai part of the Province of Ontario and Qaebec between Kingston and Montreal, Montreal iucluded, at 84 35 per barrel. Division No. 3 — Consisting of that part of the Province of Qaebec between Montreal and Quebec, Qaebec included, at $4 50 per bairjl. Division No. 4 — Consieting of the Dominion of Canada east of the city of Que- bec, except the cities of Halifax and St. John, N.B., at $4.75 per barrel. Division No. 5 — Consisting of the cities of Halifax and St. John, N.S., at $4.70 per barrel. Division No. 6 — Consisting of the part of Jiast Boston for export to the Pro- vinces, at $1.^5 per barrel. Sales at all other points not to be affected by the by-laws of this association. (6) The other grades of meals to be sold at an established difference in price, namely : — Granulated at an advance of 25 cents per barrel above the standard meal, rolled meal in barrels of 180 pounds each at an advance above standard meal of 50 cents 624 OONSTITTTTION. per barrel ; rolled oats in barrels of 1 180 pounds^each at an advance above standard meal of Y5 cents. In case of any new member joining this association the executive committee shall allot to such new member his proper percentage of the total quantity to be sold and delivered, which allotment shall be deducted from the quantity to be sold and delivered by the then members of the association in proportion to said several allotments. 17. No member to make known to parties outside the association the several divisions into which Canada has been divided. 18. The ^tal quantity of oatmeal or products of oats to be sold and delivered by members of the Association for home consumption shall be allotted among the mem- bers of the association for sale and delivery in the following percentages, namely ; — 19. That each of the members of this association shall pay into the hands of the treasurer of the association on the 5th day of each and every month, such a sum of money as shall be equal to 30 cents per barrel upon each and every barrel of oatmeal or other product of oats sold and delivered by the said member during the then pre- ceding month in excess of the number of barrels he is to sell and deliver as his pro- portion of the said total quantity in accordance with the allotment set out in by-law No. 18. 20. That in case any of the members of the association shall during any month sell and deliver a lees number of barrels of oatmeal or other product of oats than the number he is entitled to sell and deliver as his percentage of the said total manufac- ture, he shall receive from the said treasurer a sum of money equal to 30 cents on each and every barrel of oatmeal or other product of oats by which the said member Bhall fall short of the quantity allotted to him for sale and delivery, as his percentage of the total quantity manufactured . 21. That each member of this association, on the 5th day of each and every month, shall render to the secretary of the said association a true and correct account of all the oatmeal and other product of oats sold and delivered by the said member daring tbe month next preceding such statement, and he shall at the same time make a full settlement of all moneys (if any) due by him to the said association, the said statement to be verified by the statutory declaration of the member. 22. That each and every member of this association shall and will at all times and from time to time allow the executive committee or such person as may be from time to time appointed by them, to examine the books and other accounts of the said member, to check over or verify from time to time the said statement rendered by the said member to the said association . We whose names are hereinto subscribed do agree, each one for himself and for themselves, that we will faithfully observe all rules and by-laws which have been, orf may be enacted for the benefit and guidance of the Oatmeal Millers' Association o Canada, and we further agree to pay into the treasury of said Oatmeal Millers' Asso- ciation of Canada, a sum of money equal to not less than cents per barrel for each and every barrel of oatmeal or rolled oats manufactured at mill and sold by or agent, at a less price than the price fixed by said Oatmeal Millers' Association of Canada. B. The following form of monthly return of production and statutory declaration thereto is required of each active member of the Oatmeal Millers' Association : — Monthly Statement. 1st December, 1887. Statement of oatmeal and rolled oats, manufactured at by daring month of barrels Stock on hand, Oatmeal barrels. Oats bushel. Signature OATMSIL. 625 Statutory Declaration. Dominion of Canada, '\ County of, > To Wit : ) I, of the of in the County of miller, do solemnly declare that the statement within written is a true and correct statement of all the oatmeal and other products of oats sold and delivered by me daring the month of 18 , and that all of the said meal was sold at prices not less than the fall schedule prices fixed by the Oatmeal Millers' Association of Canada. And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to fbe true, and by virtue of the Act passed in the thirty-seventh year of Her Majesty's ^ign, intituled : •' An Act for the suppression of voluntary and extra-judicial oaths.'* Declared before me at in the County of this day of A. D. IbS Signed MINUTES OF MEETINGS OP THE OATMEAL MILLERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA. I^om 4«A November, 1887, to 16th March, 1888, both dates inclusive. Woodstock, 4th November, 1887. At a meeting of the Oatmeal Millers' Association, held at the Commercial Hotel on the above date, the following members were present : Messrs. Martin, Muirhead, Tillson, Ross, King, Sutherland, Edmonds, Murton, Russell, Andrews, Leith, Wilson, Archibald, J. D. Moore, H. S. Moore, W. Thompson and R. Thompson. Mr. T. Martin occupied the chair. On the bringing in of the report on the case of Clark, of Bothwell, it was moved by D. R. Ross, and seconded by E. D. Tillson, That it be left in the hands of the executive committee. — Carried, On the motion of J. D. Moore, seconded by W, Thompson, The agreement was read and adopted, clause by clause, with the following^ exceptions : — Moved by W. Thompson, seconded by J. D. Moore, and Resolved, That clause No. 4 be amended, making the number of directors five in place of four. — Carried. Moved by A. Leith and seconded by D. R Rose, That a quorum of the ass'. ciation consist of at least ten members. — Carried. Moved by D. R Ros6, peconded by J. Muirhead, and Besolved, That clause No. 10 of the by -laws be amended so that one auditor shall be chosen by the presidert and one by the members of the association. On motion of H. S. Moore seconded by C. Russell, it was resolved. That a majority only of the whole board of directors be required to change the price of meal. Moved by W. Thompson, seconded by Jas. Wilson, That D. R. Ross be appointed secretary for one month at a salary of $200 with expenses. — Carried. Mr. W. Thompson moved, seconded by Jas. Wilson, That the officers of the association consist of the following : — President, W. Scott ; vice president, T. Martin ; directors, W. Thompson, H. S. Moore, D. Spiers, J. Muirhead, D. R. Ross. — Carried. 3—40 626 MINUTXS. Moved by W. Thompson and seconded by J. Muirhead, That the secretary be instructed to notify Mr. Pringle to cease bayinsj oats at Holstein and also that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to Mr. Pringle. — Carried. Read atd approved 2nd December, 1887. WM. SCOTT, President, Special Meeting. Walker House, Toronto, 2nd December, 1887. Members present: W. Scott, president ; Thos. Martin, vice-president ; D.R. Ross, eeoretary ; and Messrs. Andrews, Archibald, Ireland, Leith, H. S. Moore, J. D. Moore, Martin, Muirhead, Mcintosh, Russell, Sutherland, Grant, Tillson, W. Thomson and J. Wilson, jun. Minutes of last meeting read and approved. The following resolutions were carried : — Moved by W. Thompson, seconded by H. S. Moore and resolved, That the secretary notify Mr. Pringle that his services as oat-buyer for the Association is no longer required. Moved by D. R. Ross, seconded by T. Martin, and resolved. That Mr. H. M. Sutherland be allowed an allotment of 2,500 barrels. Moved by Mr. Muirhead, seconded by Mr. Thompson and resolved, That oatmeal be advanced 35 cents per barrel. Moved by W. Thompson, seconded by H. S. Moore, and resolved. That each miller is required to have a number to mark all packages of oatmeal sold by him, such number to be registered in association book. And each miller is required to use those numbers whether package is branded with maker's name or not. Moved by D. R. Ross, seconded by Mr. Muirhead, and resolved. That each miller shall advise the secretary of every person or firm whom he may appoint as agent for the sale of his oatmeal, and the secretary shall keep a record of all the agents so appointed, and it is understood that any person or persons who is allowed or paid the commission by this association, shall be constituted an iigent. Moved by W. Thompson, seconded by T. Martin, and resolved. That Mr. John Payne, of Stratford, be appointed oat-buyer for the members of the association, and that each miller buying car loads of oats shall pay Mr. Payne the sum of $1.50 per car lor each car bought and that the oat buying be under the supervision of the secretary. Moved by Mr. Muirhead, seconded by Mr. Thomson, and re-olved, That all millers buying car loads of oats at not over the price which may be fixed by the association, which, until further advised, shall be 33 cents or less for oatg weighing not less than 34 pounds per standard bushel, shall pay Mr. Payne the sum of SI. 50 per car, the seme as if the car had been bought by Mr. Payne, and that Messrs. Mcintosh and Barclay bo eatempied from the resolution, aod also Messrs. McKay and Russell be ezcmpled, bought by themselves east of the North and iSorth- Weetern Railway. Moved by Mr. Andrews, seconded by Mr. MuirheaJ, and resolved. That all declarations made by millers be made in barrels as sold, and not bj the cental or 196 pounds. OATMEAL. 627 Canada Oatmbal Milluskj Company (Limited), 2nd Ddcember, 1887. Members present (same as at last association meeting). The following resolutions were passed : — Moved by Mr. Martin, seconded by Mr. H. S. Moore, and resolved, That the report of the secretary be received, and that the following mills bo lea8€*d and the secretary be instructed to have the leases completed at once at the rents agreed upon per annum: — John Knott, Palmerston, $700; W, Boewell, Wyom- ing, $800 ; Mclnnes & Co., IngersoU, $B00; D. & J. Clark, Ayr, $720; Elder & Olegg, Wingham, $600 ; J. Harman, Mount Albert, $400; J. Hartop, Eden Mills, $300; W. Ftirish, Kockwood, $700 ; Lepsic & Sticknay, Elora, $60J. Moved by Mr. Martin, seconded by Mr. Muirbead, and resolved, That Mr. Jas. Wilson, jon., be auditor, and the president appoint Mr. Archibald. Moved by Mr. Thomson, seconded by Mr. Martin, and resolved, That D. JR. JRoss be appointed secretary at a salary of $50 per month, payable monthly, and be allowed to run his mill as usual ; his office to be in Embro ; travelling and all necessary expenses to be allowed. Stratford, 15th December, 1887. Directors' Meeting Present: — T. Martin, vice-president; Muirhead; Eoss, secretary; Thomson, also J. D. Mojre, treasurer. On motion the secretary was instructed to rent Mr. Barclay's miU of Spring- field at a rental of $700 per annum ; rent payable monthly. Mr. Payne agreed with the directors to buy oats at $1.50 per car; this matter not having been definitely settled at the general meeting of 2nd December. Mr. M.uirhead was to arrange, if possible, to have Mr. Payne buy all the car loads of oats required by the Sheddon Company and also by the Messrs. Hendries* Directors' Meeting. Stratford, 5th January, 1888. Present : — T. Martin, vice-president ; Thomson, Muirhead, H. S. Moore and Ross ; also J. D. Moore and E. D. Tillson. The secretary was requested to write Mr. C. Russell conveying the sympathy of the board with Mr. Russell in the affliction with which he has been visited by the death of three of his children . A letter from Messrs. Stark Bros, was read and tabled. Oats. Mr. Payne was instructed to buy carloads of oats for each miHer at lowest po&> «ible price, Oatmeal, It was decided to advance oatmeal 50 cents per barrel, and the secretary to wiro all members not present. Members are requested to send to the secretary their sales of oatmeal during December, 1886, and January, 1887, so as to compare sales with this year. Agents. The appointing of agents was discussed at great length, and the secretary was instructed to notify members by circular of rules which it is necessary to follow with agents. 3-40i 628 MINUTES. Special General Meeting. Walker House, Toronto, 15th January, 1888. Members present : H. S. Moore, chairman, D. E. Eoes, secretary, Muirhead, J* D. Moore, Molntoeh, Grant, Murton, Edmonds, W. Thomson, E. Thomson and J, Wilson, jun. As per notice meeting was called for the purpose ot discussing the relative value of different quantities of oatmeal, as some members feel that the difference is too great between the car load and less quantities. As some of the members most anxious for the change were not present it was decided to leave the matter over*. The resolution was carried. Moved by Mr. Edmonds, seconded by Mr. Muirhead, and Resolved^ That the secretary be instructed to communicate with President Ince^ of the Wholesale Grocers' Guild, regarding the supplying of the wholesale trade with oatmeal, with the request that our Bchedule of price be adhered to by them, and that we are furnished with a list of the names of the members of their guild. — Carried. Moved by Mr. Muirhead, seconded by E. Thomson, and Resolved^ That any dealers buying car lots of oatmeal, that when suflScient proof to any of our members is given that they or he have told below our schedule price^ that their name be recorded, and it is fully understood that no member of our com^ pany supply him further. — Carried. Minutes confirmed. W. SCOTT, Chairman. Meeting of executive at Toronto, 24th January, 1888. AH present; and decided to have resolutions passed at last meeting printed.— Carried. Meeting of executive at Stratford, 3rd February, 1888. Members present : Messrs. Martin, H. S. Moore, W. Thomson, Muirhead, Bob» and J. D. Moore, treasurer. On motion the price of oatmeal was advanced 25 cents per barrel. A communication from Mr. Eussell in regard to his refusal to pay an assessment was reported and the secretary was requested to reply to the same advising him that. he must pay the same as other members. Walker House, Toronto, 14th February, 1888. Special meeting of Oatmeal Millers' Association was callei for to-day. Members present: W. Scott, president, T. Martin, W. Thomson, H. S. Moore, J. D. Moore, treasurer, D. E, Eoss, secretary, Andrews, Archibald, Edmonds, Ireland, King, Leith, Murton, Gartly of Muirhead & Gartly, E. Thomson, Mcintosh, Grant of P. Stuart & Co., Tillson and J. Wilson, jun. The president britfly stated the object of calling the members together which was for the purpose ot considering, if advisable, to change the relative value of car -loads and less quantities, and also for the purpose of reconsidering two resolutions passed at a former meeting. The meeting was the largest attended of any held, and the changes were iaily discussed. The following resolutions were carried : — Moved by Mr. Mcintosh, seconded by Mr. Martin, and Resolved, That the relative prices of cai loads and less quantities of oatmeal be changed, and that the following price list come in force on 18th February : 25 barrels and less than a carload to be 10 cents above oar load prices ; 5 barrels and up to 25 barrels to be 20 cents above car load prices; under 5 barrels to be 30 cents above car load prices. See revised price list No. 6. OATMEAL — CORDAGE. 629 The next resolution carried was as follows : — Moved by D. R. Ross, seconded by T. Martin, aad Jiesolved, That the two resolutions passed at meeting 13th January, referring to arrangement with wholesale grocers and obliging ail dealers to observe our schedule of prices, be rescinded . The two resolutions are as follows : That the secretary be instructed to communicate with President Ince, of the "Wholesale Grocers' Guild, regarding the supplying of the wholesale trade with oat- meal, with the request that oar schedule prices be adhered to by them, and that we be furnished with a list of the names of the members of their guild. That any dealer buying oar lots oatmeal, that when sufficient proof to any of our members is given that they or him have sold below our schedule prices, thut their names be recorded and it be fully understood that no member of our company supply him further. A long discussion followed regarding the value of oats, and also in reference to a scheme proposed for enabling millers who were willing to retire permanently with- out sacrificing their property, but nothing definite was done, and no doubt the matter will be brought up again as it is quite useless for so many mills to continue fighting for such a small amount of business. D. R. ROSS, Secretary. Walker Housk, Toronto, 14th, 15th, 16th March. Eocecutive Meeting. Present: — Messrs. Scott, Martin, Ross, Thomson, Moore, Speirs, also Gartly, representing Mr. Muirhead, J. D. Moore, treasurer, Wilson jun., Tillson, Edmonds «nd Mcintosh. D. R. Ross, seceetary, was appointed to go to Ottawa, to Combines, if wanted. Also was instructed to call on Russell. Notice of meeting of exporters was requested to be postponed until May or Jane. EXHIBIT 39. THE J. A. CONVERSE CORDAGE AND PLASTER WORKS, A. W. MORRIS AND BRO. PROPRIETORS. Montreal, 24th March, 1888. Messrs. A. "Workman & Ooi, Ottawa, Ont. Dear Sir, — We take great pleasure in notifying you that after mature delibera- tion we have decided to withdraw from the Cordage and Binder Twine Association or combination, and will for the future carry on the various departments of our businesa independently of any other manufacturing concern. In coming to this conclusion we have not been guided or influenced to the Blightest degree by the prospect of any legislation at Ottawa regarding combines, but have taken the step simply believing that it is the proper course to pursue under the circumstances, and must result eventually to our mutual benefit. The cordage and binder twine combinations were organized on a pooling basis, and it has therefore necessitated us (as the largest manufacturers) paying a very large sum into the pool or trust, which has been devoted to the worthy object of sup- porting and strengthening our small competitors. Now experience teaches us that these moneys have been wrongfully applied and greater satisfaction would naturally ensue if the buyer received the benefit in reduced values. "We therefore ask for your sympathy and support, and will reciprocate by promptly and carefully attending to 620 COAL— INSURANCE. any of your esteemed orders that you feel disposed to favor as with. We have lost all faith in combinations and are convinced that sooner or later such organizations will not be allowed to exist. Yours respectfully, A. W. MOERIS & BRO. EXHIBIT 40. This Aobeement made this twenty-second day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven, between John Charles Browne, of the city of Ottawa, in the County of Carleton, of the first part, and the Coal Cartage Company of Ottawa (Limited) of the second part: Witnesscth that the said party of the first part, in consideration of the covenant on the part of the said parties of the second part, covenants, promises and agrees to purchafie from the said parties of the second part and from no other person or corpora- tion, all the coal sold by him the said party of the first part during the remainder of the year ending on the thirtieth day of April, eighteen hundred and eighty-eight; and the said parties of the second part covenant to sell to the said parties of the first part and deliver for him all the coal he may require at prices per ton not greater than the current rates the said parties of the second part are selling to and delivering for other parties, provided they the said parties of the second part have said coal from time to time in stock. The said parties of the second part covenant with the said party of the first part to pay to him forthwith after a dividend of the said parties of the second parti» declared from time to time for the profits of the said parties of the second part dur- ing the year commencing on the first day of May, eighteen hundred and eighty- seven, a sum equal to one-sixteenth of the said dividends from time to time as the said dividends are declared. The said party of the first part covenants to pay for the said coal purchased and delivered as aforesaid every month, on the fifth day of the same, for all coal sold and delivered prior thereto. The said party of the first part covenants to deduct from the said sum of money payable by the said parties of the second part as aforesaid to the said party of tb i first part and to give credit to the said parties of the second part for all the net clear profits made by him the said party of the first part in the sale and delivery of oocl from the first day of May to the date hereof. In witness whereof the said party of the first part hath hereunto set his hard and seal and the said parties of the second part have hereunto caused their corporate* seal to be affixed under the hand of their president and secretary- treasurer. J. C. BROWNE, J. G. BUTTERWOETH, President. EXHIBIT 41. See Exhibit 47, Verbatim Copy of this. EXHIBIT 42. CiEouLAR TO Agents. Montreal, 11th November, 1886. Dear Sir, — Euolosed herewith I send you a copy of instructions and rules now bindiog on agents of tariff oompaaios, and a form of agreement requiring your sig-^ INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. 631 natare in triplicate. I woald call your special attention to No. 16 of instractions to agents, which is as follows : — " No office or person holding official connection with a non-tariff office shall bo eligible to represent or act for a tariff office, whether as general agent, sub-agent, or in any other capacity whatever." You will please sign the agreement referred to in triplicate, returning tho original and duplicate to this office not later than the 25th instant, and retaining the triplicate for filing in your own office . AQBS8MENT. f To the Insurance Company. No. 3. — Triplicate to be retained by local agent, I hereby acknowledge having received copies of tariff and instructions to agenta and undertake to adhere to the rates and rules of the Canadian Fire Underwriters* Association, as therein set forth, and as may be hereafter communicated to me from time to time. And I further agree not to represent any non-tariff office nor to place a risk in any company not a member of said association, either with or without con» sideration, directly or indirectly, except in instances when all companies shall bo full, or shall not be open for the insurance, and then only in strict conformity with the tariff rules and regulatioLs. Agent. EXHIBIT 43. CANADIAN FIEE UNDERWBITEES' ASSOCIATION. CONSTITUTION. Title. Article 1. — This association shall be known as " The Canadian Fire Under* writers' Association." Objects. Article 2. — The objects of the association are the establishment and maintenance of fire insurance rates, and the promotion of the interests of fire insurance business in Canada. Members. Article 3. — This association shall consist of the following companies, viz. : — 1. ^E'na Icsurance Company, of Hartford, Conn. 2. British America Fire Assurance Company, Toronto, Canada. 3. Caledonian Fire Insurance Company, of Edinburgh, Scotland. 4. Citizens Insurance Company, of Montreal, Canada. 5. City of London Fire Insurance Company, of London, England. 6. Commercial Union Assurance Company, of London, England. 7. Connecticut Fire Insurance Company, of Hartford, Conn. a. Fire Insurance Association, of London, England. 9. Glasgow and London Insurance Company. 10. Guardian Fire and Life Assurance Company, of London, England. 11. Hartford Fire Insurance Company, of Hartford, Conn. 12. Hand in Hand Fire Insurance Company, Toronto, Canada. 13. Imperial Insurance Company, of London, England. 14. Lancashire Insurance Company, of Manchester, England. 15. Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company, of Liverpool, Eng, 16. London and Lancashire Fiie Insnrance Company, of Liverpool, England. 17. London Assurance Corporation, of London, England. 18. Mercantile Fire Insurance Company, Waterloo, Ontario. 632 INSURANOE ASSOCIATION. 19. North British and Mercantile Insurance Co. of Bdinbargh and London. 20. Northern Assurance Company, ot Aberdeen and London. 21. Norwich Union Fire Insurance Society, of Norwich, England. 22. National Assurance Company, of Ireland. 23. Phenix Insurance Company, of Brooklyn, U. S. 24. Phcenix Fire Assurance Company, of London, England. 25. Quebec Fire Assurance Company, of Quebec, Canada. 26. Queen Insurance Company, of Liverpool, England. 27. Queen City Fire Insurance Company, Toronto, Canada. 28. Eoyal Canadian Insurance Company, of Montreal, Canada. 29. Royal Insurance Company, of Liverpool, England 30. Scottish Union and National Insurance Company, of Edinburgh, Scotland. 31. Waterloo Mutual Fire Insurance Company, of Waterloo, Ontario* 32. Western Assurance Company, of Toronto, Canada. 33. Atlas. With such other companies as may from time to time become members. Membership. Article 4.— All existing members, or companies becoming members, shall be required to sign a copy of the constitution and by-laws of the association in a book kept by the secretary for the purpose, and such signature shall be considered as binding such company not to violate the said constitution or by-laws. Bepresentation and Voting, Article 5. — Representatives of companies whose head or chief offices are in the Province of Ontario, shall be known as the Toronto branch ; and representatives of companies whose head offices are in the Pi'ovince of Quebec, as the Montreal branch. These branches shall have concurrent jurisdiction . Knoh branch may pass an order, but such order must be submitted to the other branch, and approved by it, before it comes into force. The promulgation of an order so approved shall be made by the secretary of the association . In the event of an order passed by one branch not being approved by the other, the said order shall be re-considered and a vote taken thereon . The yeas and nays shall be taken in both branches and recorded, and the majority of the aggregate shall prevail. In such a division each company shall have but one vote. On any question, which, bec^use of its general interest to the association, falls to be voted upon by both branches, companies having dual representation shall record their votes but in one branch only ; on matters not of general interest, such companies shall record their votes through their representative for the district to which the question belongs . Officers. Article 6. — The officers of this association shall be a president and two vice presidents, a secretary-treasurer and assistant secretary, whose remuneration shall be fixed by the association. Election of Office Bearers. Article t.^Tbe office bearers of this association shall be elected by ballot (unless otherwise agreed to) at the annual meeting of the association ; and the persons so chosen shall hold office for one year, or until their successors are elected. Any officer is eligible for re-election ; and should any vacancy occur during the year from any cause, the members present at any meeting of the association may electa person to fill the vacant position for the unexpired term of his predecessor. Duties of President, Article B. — It shall be the duty of the president to call and preside at all meet- ings of the association, as well as at all meetings of either branch at which he may be present. In the absence of the president, his duties shall devolve on one of the vice- IN6UBANCE ASSOCIATION. 633 presidents ; and in the absence of all of them, the members present at the meeting may appoint a chairman. Duties of Secretaries. Article 9. — It shall be the duty of the secretary to take minutes of all meetings of the association, and also of the meetings of the Toronto branch, to have them printed and copies thereof d it- tributed to every member ol the association. He shall conduct all correspondence of the Toronto branch, and also between the association and local boards in the Province of Ontario, and he shall discharge such other duties in connection with the association as may reasonably be required of him. The assistant secretary shall assist the secretary in taking the minutes of all meetings of the association, and shall take the minutes of the meetings of the Montreal branch, aud fchall have them printed and copies thereof distributed to every member of the association. He shall conduct all correspondence of the Montreal branch, and dis> charge such other duties in connection with the association or the Montreal branch as may reasonably be required of him. Each secretary shall keep a complete file of the minutes of meetings ot the association, and ot each branch. General Meeting. Article 10. — (a) An annual meeting of the association shall be convened in the month of March (on such a day as the association may determine upon), alternately in the cities of Montreal and Toronto. (6). A semi-annual meeting shall be convened in the month of September in each year, to alternate between the cities of Montreal and Toronto. (c). Special general meetings may be convened when necessary; and when called shall convene in one of the cities above named or elsewhere, as may be decided upon. (d). Special general meetings shall be called, either at the written request of not less than one third of the members or upon the resolution ot the two branches. (e). Notice of all general meetings shall be sent by the secretary to each member of the association, stating the time and place of meeting, whi«h must not be less than ten days after such notice. (f). The secretary's notice must be accompanied by a statement or agenda of the business to be transacted ; and in the case of special meetings, no business shall he taken up except such as is specified on such notice, which notice shall be accom- panied by a copy of the requisition to the president, or of the resolution requiring nim to call such special meetings. (^). All questions for the agenda for either annual, semi-annual or special meetings shall be sent to the secretary not less than fifteen clear days before the date fixed for said meeting, and a copy of the agenda shall be sent by him to each member of the association ten days before said meeting. Withdrawal from Membership. Article 11, — Any company may withdraw from the association — all dues to the -end of the current year having first been paid — by a written notice to the secretary; but such withdrawal shall not take effect, or release the company so withdrawing, from the agreement entered into under Art. 4 of this constitution, for the period of three months from the date of such notice. On receiving such a notice from any company the secretary shull immediately notify all the members of the association, and it shall be optional with the other companies, or any one of them, to withdraw at the same time, by giving notice to the secretary to that effect, unless such with- drawing company is retiring from business, it being understood that all does to the «nd of the current year must first be paid. Quorum. Article 12. — Ten members of the association shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business ; and five members shall constitute a quorum of either branch^ 634 INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. Amendments to Constitution and By-Laws. Article 13. — The constitution and by-laws of the association may be altered or amended by a two-thirds vote at an annual or semi-annual meeting or at a special meeting called for the purpose — provided that not less than ten days' notice of such alteration or amendment be sent or given to each member of the association. Expenses. Article 14. — The current expenses of each branch of the association shall be met by an annual assessment on each of the companies belonging thereto pro rata to annual premium income ot each company for the period assessed upon within each province ; but an interim assessment may be made pro rata on the income of the previous year, and new companies, having no income for said previous year, shall be assessed not less than $25 each, and as soon as the income of the current year is ascertained, &pro rata adjustment shall then be made of the amount payable by each company, based on said income. BY-LAWS. Tariff. Section 1 . — The tariff of rates adopted by the association are for the various risks described therein, and are applicable to renewals as well as to new business. Except where otherwise specially allowed such risks shall not be written for a loBgf r period than one year (unless three annual premiums at full tariff rates are paid in advance) — for periods of less than one year, short rates must be charged as per short term rate table in the tariff books. Non-Tariff Risks, Section 2.— The following risks are not subject to the operation of the tariffs, namely : Dwellings and their outbuildings and contents (except situate in classes A, B, C, or D, which are rated in tariffs), farm property and property written under railroad schedules, but individual railroad risks are subject to tariff rates and rules. Classification of Placesi Sections. — All cities, towns, and villages shall be classified according to their fire preventive appliances, construction, situation, &c., in accordance with *♦ standard " adopted therefor, and each branch shall have full power to deal with the cl ossification of all places within its jurisdiction. When the classification of any place is changed the branch in whose province the place is situate shall name the date from which the new rates shall apply, but a few days should elap-e between the promulgation of the change and its coming into effect, and no change shall be made oy any company until the same shall have been promulgated by the secretary of the branch within whose jurisdiction the place may be. Officers shall instruct their special agents and inspectors, when in towns classified by the association, when practicable, to make enquiry as to the efficiency of the fire appliances, brigade and apparatus, and to report any deficiencies to the secretaries of the association. Violation of Tariff. Section 4. — No member of this association shall accept a risk at less than tariff rate ; and if an agent of any company take a risk under the tariff rate he shall bo xequirrd by his bead office to collect the additional premium immediately or cancel the ri^k, reporting his action in the matter to his head office without delay ; but if a company or the agent of a company take a risk which was held or is expiring iti anotner company — a member of this association at less than tariff rate — the com- pany shall be obliged to cancel the insurance, and shall not be permitted to accept a risk on the same property nor shall the agent be permitted to plac^ a risk thereon in any company, lor one month from the date of such cancel ment. If a company INSUBANCE ASSOCIATION. 636* holds a tariff risk accepted or renewed at less than tariff rate at the date of last renewal (or if the risk has been rated specifically in the interim), and fails to collect the proper tariflf rate when said risk next matures, it shall not thereafter have the privilege of collecting the extra premium, but must cancel and is prohibited from^ accepting or its agent from placing in any company a risk on the same property within one month from date of cancelation. Dividing Commission. Section 5. — No member of this association shall directly or indirectly, or through their agent, allow any rebate or discount from tariflf rates, or divide com- mission with the assured or any of his employees. This being done, either by a com- pany or by its agent shall be considered an infraction of the tariflf, and shall necessi- tate the immediate cancelation of the risk by the oflfending company and agent, and the company shall not be permitted to accept a risk on the same property, nor the agent to place a risk thereon in any company for three months from date of cancel- ation. Complaints. Section 6. — When an agent of any company shall report to his head oflSce an alleged violation of the tariflf by an agent, or agents of other companies, such head office shall immediately report the same to the secretary within whose jurisdic- tion the risk may be with all the facts respecting the same in their possession. The secretary shall investigate the matter, and if need be, have ttie right of access to any books, papers, &c. When a complaint thus made to the secretary of either branch is against a company whose head office belongs :o the other branch, the secretary to whom the complaint is made shall if necessary communicate the same to the secre- tary within whose jurisdiction the head office of the company complained of is situ- ate ; which latter official shall have full powers to carry out the rules of the associa- tion with regard to such charges of infringement of the tariff and by-laws. K a company refuses to carry out such tariflf rate or by-lawH after its attention has been drawn to the matter, the secretaries shall bring the complaint before a meeting of the branch in whose district the offence has been committed. Should the company then fail in having the matter rectified to the satisfaction ot the branch, all the facts shall be communicated to the association, whose decision in the matter shall be final. Should the defaulting company neglect to comply with the decision of the association, a special meeting of the association shall be called, as provided for in article 10 of the constitution, to determine what action shall be taken. Furthermore should it be proven, to the satisfaction of the association, that any company is persistently vio- lating any of the by laws or tariffs, or peimitting any of its agents so to do, a special meeting of the association shall be called, as hereinbefore provided, to deal with the matter. Infringements of tariff to he printed in minutes. Section 7. — The secretaries shall furnith monthly to their respective branches^ reports of all infractions of the tariff coming before them, which have been substan- tiated by them, giving the name of the company, agency at which the risk has been taken, and particulars of infraction substantiated, without, however, mentioning name of owner or occupant of premises, or immediate location of same. This list shall be published in the first official minutes of the following month. Agents to sign agreement to observe tariff. Section 8. — Companies, members of the association, shall require all their agents to sign an agreement of the following form, and shall file the same with secretaries r To the Insurance Company 636 INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. I hereby acknowledge having received copies of tariff and instructions to agents, and I pledge myself to adhere to the rates and bylaws of the Canadian Fire Under- writers' Association as therein set forth, and as may be hereafter communicated to me from time to time. I further pledge myself to charge tariff rates for ail business placed by me in any company, purely mutual offices alone accepted. Joint Branches' Power. Section 9. — The alteration of a present or the addition of a new tariff, by-law or rate can be made at the request of three or more members, by the unanimous vote of each of the two branches present at a meeting called for such purpose, without needing to wait for the annual, semi-annual or special meeting, provided due notice in writing be given of the said proposed by-law or rate and printed in the previous !^ minutes. Rating of Risks peculiarly Constructed. Section 10, — It shall be competent for the association acting by the branches at Montreal and Toronto jointly, to specially rate any risk that may possess peculiari- ties of construction, appliances for extinguishing fires, or other features that were not taken into account when the minimum rate for that class of risk was fixed. If such features be considered sufficient to entitle the risk to a reduction of rate, then the rat« on saiJ risk shall be reduced, but only in the manner following, to wit: the nature of euch feature of the risk shall be distinctly set forth, and a specific sum shall be stated as the deduction or deductions to be made for the same. Such deductions shall then be embodied in the general tariff in the form of schedule, and the same may be applied to all risks whatsoever of a similar class that may possess the same ieature or features. Specially Bating " Standard " Manufacturing Risks. Section 11. — That where a manufacturing risk has been so constructed or im- proved as to be rendered eligible for acceptance by the New England Mutual Insur- ance Companies, such risk may, upon application, be exempted from the operation of any tariff, and shall then be specially rated by the respective branch of the apsocia- tion within whose jurisdiction it may be, according to the circumstances of each case, but such specially rated risk shall bd inspected at least twice a year a** a guarantee that the standard for which the special rating was granted is being main- tained ; the expenses of such inspection to be borne by the companies interested in the risk. Powers of Secretaries as to Rating^ Section 12.— (a.) Concerning risks rated in the "Minimum Tariff"— The secretaries shall, when requested, determine questions of application of same but they shall rate no risk below such tariff; they may, however, rate risks, so far as " specials " are concerned, above the tariff, under such circumstances as may appear to them requisite; and such special ratings shall be absolutely binding upon com- panies when promulgated by them. Any rating, however, shall be subject to ap- peal to the association, but the full rate must, in the meantime, be collected. (b) Concerning risks of a class for which any schedule for rating has been adopted by the association. — They shall rate Huch risks in accordance with schedule, but where, by reason of the construction, or by "ome special feature of a risk, the strict application of the schedule extras would inflict a manifest injustice, the secre- tary and inspector of each branch shall have power to modify the extras in the sche- dule for such risk. And further, that whereas, by the strict application of the extra required by the schedule ratings for boiler, causes in many instances an injustice to the assured, where the boiler is used for heatina: only, and similarly as regards iron smoke stacks in buildings which ao not endanger the factory proper, it shall be at MONTREAL BRANCH, C.F U.A. 637 the discretion of the secretary and inspector of the respective branches to modify or abolish altogether the extras in question, if circumstances warrant such action. (c.) Concerning silent manufacturing risks. — The secretaries may specially rate silent manufacturing risks, except any so provided for in the tariffs, where the circumstances of the case appear to call for any departure from the usual rule of changing working rate. Municipal Taxation, Section 13. — In cities and towns where taxation is imposed on insurance com- panies, such places shall have their rates increased by reducing their classification one letter, or by imposing a percentage upon the rates, as may be determined by the branch within whose jurisdiction the place may be. Provided, that when the municipal taxation is based on the net income only, and is a general municipal tax and not a specific tax upon insurance companies or mercantile corporations, no in- crease of rates shall be charged. Limit of Expense of Local Board. Section 14. — The expenses to the companies of any local board, working under tariffs A, B, or C, shall be limited to ?200 a year, and no local board shall have any claim upon any company until its organization shall have been sanctioned by this association. Companies Names to be Given in Certain Cases. Section 15. — The names of companies that have taken risks from other com- panies under tariff rates and fail to rectify the same within 15 days, and the names of companies not answering the queries in bulletin within one week, shall be pub- lished in the minutes. We, the undersigned representatives, on behalf of our respective companies, do hereby pledge and bind ouselves faithfully to observe the foregoing constitution and rales. EXHIBIT 44a. EXPENSES OF THE MONTEEAL BBANCH OF THE CANADIAN FIEE UNDERWRITEES' ASSOCIATION, FOR THE YEARS 1884-86-86-87. Memo, of Expenses, 1887. Eent, taxes, til ephone, janitor, &c I 438 83 Salaries — secretary, inspector, &o 3,072 63 Travelling expenses of inspector - 400 20 Printing, stationery, office supplies 735 39 Stamps, telegrams 55 55 Expenses attending investigation Montreal Fire Brigade 264 26 Photo, picture of members 215 50 Secretary's expenses to Toronto aO 60 Flowers, lunch, sundries 138 21 Expenses attending local committee in Quebec 72 ii4 Interest on overdraft 64 ^8' Total expenses $5,478 99 which is about 36 cents per $100 of premium income in Province of Quebec ($1,534,- 310) for year 1887. 638 INSURANCE. B. MoNTEBAL, 16th June, 1887. The Insurance Company in account with Treasurer Montreal Branch — Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association. Da. December, 1884 — To proportion of expenses of Montreal Branch for 8 months to date, $.1.87^ per $1,000 on 8 , your premium income in Province of Quebec, 1884. Total expenses, $2,846.98, is $1.87^ per $1,000 on total premium income, $1,521,325. December, 1885. — To proportion of expenses ot Montreal Branch for 12 months to date, $2.21 per $1,000 on $ , your premium income in Province of Quebec, 1885. Total expenses, $3,042.67, is $-^21 per $1,000 on total premium income, $1,376,930. December, 1886. — To proportion of expenses of Montreal Branch for 12 months to date, $3.14| per $1,000 on $ , your premium income in Province of Quebec, 1886. Total expenses, $4,450 20, is $ J.14J per $1,000 on total premium income of $1,414,630. March, 18 ■>7. — To proportion of expenses of specifically rating the city of Quebec, $50 per company, and $12.98 per $1,000 on $ , your premiarn income in that city for 1H86. Total expense, $ >,4^9.'<^5, 23 subscribing companies at $50 = $1 1.50, balance $2,289.25, is $12.98 per $1,000 on total premium income in city, $176,338. June, 1887. — To assessment to meet current year's expenses of the Montreal Branch, $400 per $1000 on $ , your premium income for 1886 in Province of Quebec, to be hereafter adjusted on current year's income. Cr.- By cash paid assessment, July, 1884 do do do January, 1885. do do do September, 1886. do do do April, 1886. do do do December, 1886. Balance due Treasurer. Payment of balance at an early date will oblige. C. CANADIAN FIRE UNDERWRITERS' ASSOCIATION. Statement of Receipts and Expenditure, Montreal Branch, Years 1884, 1886, 1886, Date. 1884. May 1 Jnly Dee. MM. RionpTS. Balance from " Inanrance Exchange " Gash from aueesment OompanieB do do $ cts. 320 76 2,018 66 1,603 99 Date. 1884. Itay 1 to Dec. 31 3,843 30 EXPBNDITDRB. Secretary's Balary , OfSce rent, taxes Printing tariffs, minutes, ftc.... Legal and other expensea re un- derground insurance and muni cipal taxation » Expeneea rating Chaudidre (Ot- tawa) Lumber District Postage, telegrams, telephone, office supplies, &c Total expenses for 1884.. Balance to 1886 $ cts. 666 66 197 26 1,287 06 432 56 147 12 116 96 2.846 98 996 32 3,843 30 INSUBANCE. G39 Statement of Receipts and Expenditure, «S;c. — Concluded Date. 1886. Jan. 1 Sept 1886. Jan. 1 April... Dee. Recbipts. Balance from 1884. Gash from assessment Companies balance from 1885 Gash from assessment on Companies do do $ cts. 996 32 2,367 11 3,363 43 320 76 4,130 80 2,003 23 6,454 79 Date. 1885. Jan. 1 to Dec. 31 1886 Jan. to Dec 31 EZPBHOITUU. Secretary's salsrj .......^ Office rent, taxes, he ......... Printing account ^.. Furniture and office fixtures Lee:al and other expenses re on- derground insurance Travelling expenses of secretary, attending meetings in Toronto and Ottawa, and of special deputation to Toronto re " Mem- bership of Mutuals " Postage, telegrams, telephone, office supplies, &c Total expenses for 1885 Balance to 1886 Salary of secretary do inspector, 10^ mos. ... do office lad, 8 mos Office rent, taxes, $336.95— less $50 received from life co.'s .. Printing account « ,... Travelling expenses, deputations to Toronto re " Insurance Act" " Three Years TariflF," and of secretary attending annual meeting Inspector's travelling expenses.... Postage, telegrams, telephone, office supplies, kc. . Testimonial to Mr. Fred. Cole on his resigns tiou of the treasurer- ship, in recognition of services in capacity for several years past ...-....„ >..... Total expenses for 1886 •Balance to 1887 _ % cts. 1,333 32 322 86 636 40 273 46 166 26 200 70 220 69 3,042 67 320 76 3,363 43 ,600 00 ,050 00 66 00 286 95 439 42 248 48 205 05 164 30 600 00 4,450 20 2,004 59 6,464 79 • Including $1,021.82 expended on account of specific rating ot Quebec Gity, cost of which will be speeially assessed on companies interested. Audited, G. H. McHenrt, Auditor. Montreal, 2l8t March, 1887. ALF. W. HADRILL, Sec. -Treasurer, EXHIBIT 45a|. Extracts from a letter written to Harold Engelbach, Esq.. Manager of the '' National Association Company of Ireland," 3 College Green, Dublin, dated Toronto, 23rd Feburary, 1886. " NotwithstandiDg what I stated to you in my last hurried scrawl from Kingston, I must affliet you with the history of the origin of the 'Millers and Manulacturers* «o that you may clearly understand the position of affairs. 640 HUGH SOOTT. " We (the association) framed a tariflf in October, 1883, in which, on flour mill» that had been written at one and one half per cent, we advanced to two per cent, and on those which had been written at two per cent, and two and one quarter per cent, we advanced to two and three quarter per cent. At a meeting of the association held in Montreal in September, 1884, which virtually closed on Friday evening, after which most of the western members left for home, presuming that at the Saturday meeting the unfinished business only would be dealt with. This, however, did not prove to be the case, as at the Saturday meeting flour mill rating was again taken up and in the face of remonstpances from Mr. Wood of the * Etna' and Mr. Wickins of the * Commercial Union' the only western representatives present, another increase of three quarter per cent, was added to a!l mills and their storehouse rates, thus making two jumps within one year without any regard whatever to the moral hazard or the internal or external equipments for preventing fires. Old " fire traps" and slovenly managed mills as well as those most carefully conducted were all placed on the same basis and forced to pay the same rates. It was but natural that such action should create considerable feeling when the policies on the better class of mills became renewable, and I am sorry to say the friction caused thereby, is not confined to mill owners, but has extended to the other manufacturers in this province. Mr. How- land's repeated assurance of the organizations determined on, in consequence of what was considered unjust action, I doubted until I could no longer do so, and, therefore, felt I was best serving all interests by taking a position through which 1 might bring about a better feeling and the relation that should exist between supply and demand. You know as I do that it is the insured who should and do pay the losses and ex- penses, and also in addition thereto, a fair compensation for the hazard assumed in a well managed company. To my mind it was, therefore, folly to irritate and create such bad feeling with the source from which we derive our very existence. It is however, the chronic characteristic of many of our eastern members to do so when- ever they mount a hobby. We have also created a &erious competition on the part of American companies. When in New York last summer I saw a whole page covered with the names of applicants for insurance in sums ranging from $27,000 to $40,000 each, to the ' Mutual Fire Insurance Company,' 155 Broadway, New York, from Hamilton, Toronto, Kingston and Montreal. I enclose one of Secretary Arm- strong's letters, and send you by this mail a copy of their last annual report. See also enclosed letter from Montreal correspondent of the Mail. Harbor commissioners there have placed the whole of their property with American companies. Last week the " Merriton Cotton Mills Company" placed $100,000 of their risk in Ameri- can companies, $10,000 of which was covered last year under your •' National" policy 201,842, as a great personal favor we were able to retain $5,000 covered now by your policy. All our policies on the Biordan Paper Mills (202,41 ', $6,000) were cancelled last month and the whole placed with our Yankee cousins. I could fill a letter citing similar cases that have been, or are about being, taken to the other side. I had, and still have, strong hopes that the ' Millers and Manufacturers' would in a measure arrest this exodus of business from our midst. What exercises me most over this matter is the fact, that it is the very best class of risks of their kind that we are losing in this way. Those of a ' Singe Cat' character will not be taken by them and are, therefore, left for us to squabble over, and such will continue to be the case while we are sleeping over a promise made last March that equitable schedule rating would at once be adopted. " My next will have less of shop in it; meantime, kindly excuse this, written in the midst of business, interruptions and considerable worry. "Faithfully, "HUGH SCOTT." PR08PKCTUB. 641 A. MUTUAL FIRE INSURA.NCB COMPANY. The committee appointed to carry out the following resolatioo, adopted at thfr meeting of millers held in the Board of Trade Rooms, Toronto, on Friday, 20th March, 1885, viz : — Moved by Mr. D. Plewes, Brantford, seconded by Mr. A. Watts, Brantford, — " Besolved, That it is expedient to establish a Millers' and Manufacturers' In- surance Company, under the Acts of the Province of Ontario regarding mutual in- surance companie->, which provide for a stock capital ; and that Messrs. Whitelaw,. Paris ; EL N, Baird, Toronto; D. Plewes", Brantford ; M. McLaughlan, Toronto ; J. D. Saunby, London ; W. H. BLowland, Toronto; S. Neelon, St. Catharines ; James Gol- die, Gaolph ; E. W. B. Snider, Waterloo, and A. Watts, Brantford, be a committee to carry the above resolution into effect."— Carried. Have concluded to do so on the following basis : — To raise a subsicribed capital of at least $:i50,000, on which ten per cent, will be called up ($25,000). On this paid up capital, it is proposed to pay an annual divi- dend of ten per cent. As the earning powers of this sum will not be less th^n six per cent, it will at once be seen the additional four per cent, will be a very small tax on the revenue of the company, compared to the security it will give and the confidence it will inspire. ^ The rates of premium it is proposed to charge will be a ca^h payment one-quar- ter (25 per cent ) less than the now exacted rates, and an undertaking to be given for a similar sum. It is expected this cash premium will be largely in excess of the losses, and the surplus, after providing a reserve fund, will be apportioned among the insurers, and allowed as a rebate or dividend off the cash premium payable at the end of each year on the renewal of the policy, thus giving insurance at cost. A local company having a limited nnmber of risks is obliged to write small lines, and hence affords only partial protection to its members, while one with a capital and an ample cash reserve fund, covering a large extent of territory, will be able to give^ conjointly with existing mutual companies, by way of reinsurance or otherwise, all the protection required at mach lees cost than the rates now exacted. It is not the intention to employ local agents, but have all risks examined by competent inspectors, who will have no interest in recommending undesirable hazards. The first required step towards organizing is to secure the promise of a given amount of insurance, and you are therefore requested to fill up the enclosed form, Btating what sum you will insure with the company. If it is your desire to become a stockholder, we have to ask you to also fill up in the enclosed form the sum you are willing to subscribe for of the contemplated capital. As it is desirable the company should be established as soon as possible, an early reply is requested, addressed to W. H . Howland, Toronto. JAMES GOLDIE, ChairmoM. Toronto, 2'7th March, 1885. P.S. — Should you desire any further details of the echeme, kindly communicate with W. H. Howland, Toionto, who will be happy to furnish you with the fullest particulars. N. B. — The payment of the ten per cent, to be called up on the subscribed capi- tal can be arranged to suit your convenience. From " The Popular Science Monthly." " The textile manufacturers of New England have shown how best the risks, losses and expenses of fire can be reduced to a minimum. In 1835, when Hon. Zachariah Allen, of Providence, established mutual insurance among the mills of Rhode Island, the ra*efl charged by stock companies varied from one and one-half to two and one-half per cent. Even at these high figures the business was unprofitable^ 3—41 X 6 12 MINUTES. and the placing of risks often a matter of diflSculty. Within the fifty years since 1835, the cost of insuring factories of Now England has been reduced to two- sevenths of one per cent. " On Ist January, 1885, the nineteen associated Factory Mutual Insurance Com- panies had at risk no less a sum than $375,000,000, an amount nearly twice as large as that at risk seven years before. During these seven years the cost to the insurers in the leading company — The Boston Manufacturers' — had declined twenty-three per cent, as compared with the cost during the years from 1850 to 1878. In the early part of this latter period the volume of business was small, and the losses propor- tionately greater than they afterwards became. During 1884 the net premiums paid by infeurers in the mutual companies averaged 28*28 cents per $100 insured. " Although the cost is currently but 28 cents per 0100 per annum, the companies charge rates averaging 80 cents, the diflference being returned as dividend. In ad- dition to the payment of premium each insurer becoraea liable for an assessment five times as great as the premium. No such assessment has ever been called for in the history of the Factory Mutual Companies. •* When an ordinary mill or factory adopts the means of safety laid down by the mutual underwriters it is computed that the outlay is saved in premiums in two years." B. CANADIAN FIEB UNDERWRITERS' ASSOCIATION. Extracts from minutes of Special General Meeting. Ottawa, 13th October, 1885. Met this day at 10 a.m., in the city of Ottawa, in accordance with a requisition to the president, signed by eighteen companies. The meeting was called to take place in the Russell House, but the place was subsequently changed to the City Hall, kindly placed at the disposal of the association by the city authorities. Companies represented : — Mr. G. F. C.Smith (Liverpool and London and Globe) president, in the chair; iEina, British America, Caledonia, Citizens, City of Lon- don, Commercial Union, Fire Insurance Association, Glasgow and London, Guardian, Hartford, Imperial, Lancashire, London and Lancashire, London Assurance, Mercantile, National ot Ireland, North British and Mercantile, Northern, Phoenix ot London, Quebec, Royal, Royal Canadian, Scottish Union and National, Waterloo Mutual, Western. The " item number " is the number of the subject on the agenda. 1. President's Opening Remarks. — After calling the meeting to order, the presi- dent explained that he had summoned this special general meeting in consequence of a requisition having been presented to him in accordance with article 6 of the constitution. As provided by the rules, the proceedings would be confined to the business named in the agenda which accompanied the requisition referred to. The agenda would be found so comprehensive that in all probability the holding of the semi-annual meeting, which was adjourned to November next, would be a matter of form. After a few further remarks as to the object of this meeting, the president desired, with a view of facilitating the business, that the following should be the rules of order: — That no member shall address the board for more than ten minutes on any one subject, nor more than once without permission of the meeting, but that the mover and seconder shall have the right of reply, which shall close the debate. That members addressing the meeting shall stand. That all motions shall be in writing. These rules were adopted accordingly. 2. Fire Preventive Appliances. — (Item No. 1.) The president called on the committee on fire preventive appliances for their report* Mr. J. J. Kenny, the INSUSANCS. 643^ Toronto chairman of that committee, read the report and moved, seconded by Mr, L. J^. Boa It, the Montreal chairman of the same committee, That the report be received. — Carried. Mr. Kenny then read the report, clause by clause, which was amended to read as follows : — STANDABD OF APPLIANCES. 3. Waterworh—MxiBt be efficient and sufficient at all seasons of the year (pro- "vision being made to provide against frost) for the size and requirements of the place, with proper mains and necessary hydrants. Pressure in mains must be suf- ficient to throw three streams through 300 feet of leading 2J inch hose, with a one inch nozzle, to a height of 75 feet. (Failing the necessary pressure, steamers must be provided to supply that want) Where the water pressure is not by gravity, and pumping power is employed, said power must be in an independent and separate first-class building, and under the control of the municipality. 4. Water Supply other than Waterworks. — Water tanks of the capacity of at least 5,000 gallons each must be provided at a distance of not more than 500 feet from each other, and must cover the business portion of the place at least, and always kept full, unless there is a running stream, or other natural source, which provides an ample supply. If water snpply is obtained from a running stream or other natural source, convenient platforms upon which to place and work engines must be provided and maintained, and be so situated as to enable the fire department to reach the business portion of the place. The water tanks, running stream, or other natural source, must be available at all seasons of the year. 5. Steam Fire Engines — Must be capable of throwing not less than 300 gallons a minute, and of throwing a stream 150 feet horizontally through a nozzle not less than 1 J of an inch in diameter, through 500 feet of leading hose, or two streams through two lines of hose with one inch nozzle. Not less than 20 feet of suction hose nor less than 1,000 feet of 2 J inch leading hose must be supplied. Steam engines most have a permanent paid engineer, and an assistant engineer, and be fully equipped with all tools necessary for the effjctive working of same. Except in cases where the water pressure is direct and up to the standard, all steamers must have steam heater and steam kept up to 15 poands constantly, and one man (or more, if deemed necessary by the fire appliance committee) shall sleep in engine house at night who must be capable of operating the engine. Some adequate provision should be made to have horses available for hauling engines to fires. In places o£ less than 10,000 inhabitants, one steamer shall be provided; in places of less than 20,000 but over 10,000, two steamers must be procured ; ov er 2D,000 up to 30,000 three steamers. 6. Chemical Fire Engine — Must be self-acting, with a cylinder of copper not lees than 80 gallons capacity, or two cylinders of not less than 50 gallons each, with a recharging tank capable of refilling cylinder with water in not more than one minute, or other chemical engine of equal capacity and efficiency. N.B. — In waterworks cities, recharging tank will not be insisted upon. The engine must be supplied with not less than 1 50 feet of suitable hose, at least one inch internal diameter, with an automatic reel or some other arrangement equally effective. All other necessary appliances, including three acid bottles, must be pro- vided and maintained for the efficient working of the engine. Fire companies of not less than 15 men must be organized and maintained for the effectual working of the engine. A competent man must be paid for taking charge of the engine, who shall be held responsible for keeping it in thoroughly effective working order. N.B. — Where a chemical engine is added to other appliances, a separate fire er to patrol the place and give alarms, and other appliances sufficient for the requirements and effective protection of the place. N.B. — Places in this class may be raised to ** C " by adding a chemical engine of standard capacity, or by complying with "C" requirements given above. Class E, 17. Water supply and hand fif-e engine, as per standard ; hose reels, alarm bell And other appliances sufficient fOr the requirements and effective protection of the place, or a chemical engine (jtwo cylinders) of standard capacity, with all the neces> sary requirements. N.B. — A hand engine and a chemical fire engine of standard capacity to be con- sidered equal to a steam fire engine, and places having these with the other neces- fiary appliances and efficient me This question was referred back to the Montreal committee, or to the local board there, if one be formed. 32. Commission to Agents. — (Item No. 17.) Moved by Mr. E. D. Lacy, seconded by Mr. Thomas Davidson, That a committee of two be appointed to interview the members on the ques- tion of the companies agreeing upon a maximum commission to be paid to agents^ and report to this meeting before its adjournment. — Carried. The President named Messrs. Lacy and Hart as said committee. 33. Deputation from Kingston. — The president intimated that the mayor of Kingston and the president of the Board of Trade were expected to be present at the morning session to-morrow, in reference to the classification of their city and their fire insurance rates, after which the meetirg adjourned till 10 a.m. to-morrow. MoBNiNQ SEf 8I0N, WEDNESDAY, 14th Octobcr, 1885, Met at 10 a.m., pursuant to adjournment, Mr. G. F. C. Smith, president, ii> the chair. 34. Deputation from Kingston. — (See No. 12.) Mr. B. H. Smythe, mayor of Kingston, and Mr. J, S. Muckleftone, preeident of the Board of Trade, were intro- duced and ably addressed the meeting on the question of insarance rates in that city, and as to the position af^sumed by the association in advancing rates in consequence of Kingston imposing a tax on the companies. After the president and several members had spoken on the subject, defending the action of the association and point- ing out the improvements necesf^ary in the water supply and fire appliances re- quisite to improve the classification of their city, the deputation withdrew. 35. Compact System in Toronto.— (See No. 9.) The discussion on this question was resumed. Several members of the Toronto Board being present were asked by the president to express their opinions on the subject, which they did, as did sev- eral other members, after which it was moved by Mr. L. H. Boult, seconded by Mr. W. B. Evans, €48 MINUTES. That the question of the introdaction of the compact system in Toronto be referred to the Toronto Board. — Carried. 36. Agents Representing Mutual or othernon tariff Companies.— (Item No. 13.) Before this tubji ct was discussed, Mr. L. H. Boult withdrew. After several members had ezprefi8«d iheir views on this question, it was moved by Mr. Thomas Davidson, seconded by Mr. A. T. Paterson, That inasmuch as difference of opinion exists as to the sufficiency of the existing rule to deal with the question which has arisen in Toronto, in regard to the repre- sentation of a non-tariff company by a member of the association, it is expedient to refer the whole question to a committee to be now appointed with iustructions to frame a rule which will deal with the difficulty in Toronto, and legist ate for all such similar cases in future. — Carried. COMMITTZI B. The president named the following committee to deal with the foregoing ques- tion, and items Nos. 13 a, 6 and c, and No 14, to report to-morrow morning. North British and Mercantile (Convener), iEtna (Wood), City of London (Magorn), Im- perial, London Assurance, Mercantile, Northern, Phoenix of London, Bojal, Waterloo And Western. The meeting then adjourned until 2.15 p. m. Aptebnoon Session, Wednesday, 14th October, 1885. Met at 2. 15, p. m., pursuant to adjournment, Mr. G.F.C. Smith, president, in the the chair. 54. Warehouse Eecei pts— (liexa No. 26.) That the danger of granting insurance to parties upon goods in iheir own custody when loss is made payable to banks, or other third parties, has been strongly evinced in a recent case, therefore it is recommended by this committee that some precautionary measure should ba taken by the company insuring under such circumstances to see that the good* are vouched for by disinterested parties as actually remaining in the warehouse during the currency of the insurance. 55. Further Insurance. — (Item No. 81.) That the rule demanding a list of further insurance on lumber or other property having the average clause attached is unnecessary and should be rescinded. On motion of Mr. G. E. Hart the report as amended was adopted. 56. Bates at Distont Points. — (Item No. 5.) The leport of the committee on rates at distant points was read and on motion received. After considerable dis- cussion on this report it was, on motion of Mr. Thomas K. Wood, seconded by Mr. S. Browne, referred back to the committee owing to an informality. 5'7. Co-Insurance. — (Item No. 8.) Mr. Jas. W. Taylor, chairman of the co-insur- ance committee, read the report, and then moved the reception and adoption of the same, which was carried as follows : — Your committee beg to report, 1st. 1 hat no active work has been done by the committee as such, since th& general meeting of the association held on the :i(ith March last, the matter having^ been left in a position not calling for committee meetings. The committee would, however, point with satisfaction to the hearty support which the movement has re- ceived from all insurance newspapers in Canada, to the steady growth of opinion ia the United States in favor of it, and to actual, if limited, adoption of the principle in Great Britain in relation to cotton and other special hazards. 2nd. Your ccmmittee beg to report ih'* following resolution : — That this committee deem it inexpediert that the co-insurance clause should b» generally adopted in Canadian practice, but consider that the adoption of schedule rating for special hazards, afFords an opportunity for introducing the 75 per cent, co-insurance clause into a class of risk which experience shows to be generally largely under-insured, and they therefore recommend that a reduction of 15 per cent, be allowed from the total rate when the 75 per cent, co-insurance clause is in- serted in policies insuring schedule rated special hazards, it beirg understood that where the risk is also entitled to a reduction in rate for fully equipped automatic sprinklers, that the reduction for automatic sprinklers and the 75 per cent, co-insur- ance clause combined shall be 30 per cent. 58. Schedule Bating Committee.— {Wem. No, 2.) Moved by Mr. J.J. Kenny, seconded by Mr. S. F. Magurn, That the report of the schedule rating committee be reconsidered. — Carried* Moved by Mr. J. J. Kenny, seconded by Mr. L. H. Boult, That the report of the schedule rating committee be reconfirmed, expunging^ the allowance for sprinklers ard substituting therefor the clause in the report of tho co-insurance committee, providing for a deduction of 15 per cent, for folly equipped ^d2 UINUTES. Automatic sprinklers and 15 per cent, for 75 per cent. co*insarance clause, or 30 p«r cent, for both.— Carried. 59. Underground Insurance — (Item No. 3.) Mr. Taylor, convener of this com- mittee, made a verbal report of what had been done, and what was being done in this matter, which was accepted as satisfactory. The old committee was continued «nd requested to report in due course. 60. Postal Bates Committee— (Item No. 4.) Mr. Taylor, chairman of this com- mittee, made a verbal statement ot the position of matters and recommended that farther representations by deputation be made to the Postmaster General. The report was adopted and the present committee was continued, and the matter was left in their hands. 61. Uniform Policy Conditions— (Item No. 6.) The committee reported that nothing had been done in this matter, and that they were of opinion nothing could be ff Companies. — Mr. Magurn at ibis stage of the proceedings asked whether the action resciidiog this rule was in order, as it required a two-thirds vote to make any change in the constitution or rules. The vote taken by companies yesterday afternoon on his amendment to this item of the committee's report did not show the majority ; acd he contended that the necessary majority was DOt obtained on the main motion. The chairman pointed out that there was no record of a vote by compaoiea having been taken on the main motion, besides which the report of the committee am & whole had been passed without objection ; and again, the minutes had that morning^ been read and confirmed, and he mu^t theiefore decide that the rule bad been rescinded in accordance with the provisions of the constitution. Eepobt on Section B. — Resumed. 52. Academies, churches, day-schools, colleger, banks, insurance offices, eoorti houses, charitable institutions, drill bheds (not used for other purposes), hospitals, houses of refuge, nunneries and their contents : — 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. 3 , fInaassA 70 .80 .9«» 1.00 d year rates | j^ Classes B, C, D, B and F.. .75 .b5 1.00 1.SJ& (c.^ Masonic halls, Oddfellows' halls, temperance halls, town halls, when oaed as municipal offibes only and their contents : — Ist. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. o , fin Class A 75 .85 100 1.25 * year "^es | j^ Classes B, C, D, B and F l.OO 1.10 1.25 1.50 The above on recommendation of committee were referred to the joint committees* (d) Jails, reformatories, penitentiaries, lunatic asyloms and their contents: — 1st. iind. Hrd. 4th. 3 year ratep in all classes 1.50 1.75 2.00 2.50 Sub-section (d) carried. All the foregoing rates of oour.^e are for detached and isolated risks, and no mer-> cantiJe or macufacturing occupation bhall be permitte i therein. 53. Rate on valuable Prize Cattle. — (It^m No. 8.) " To consider the rates ont farms or establishments having extra valuable or prizo cattle." Tour committee recommend that insurance on prize and thoroughbred cattle be not accepted at farm rates, but that they be specifically lated when further informa- tion shall have been obtained by a committee to be named by the president, to report at next semi-annual meeting to their respective branches/ — Carried. The president appointed the following committee : — Montreal: Liverpool and London and Globe, Glasgow and Lowion, Imperial and Boyal ; Toronto : Agricoii' tural. City of London, Mercantile and Waterloo. 54. Uniform Form of Application for Farm Property. — (Item No. 17.) To consider the proposition made by the Agricultural of Watertown, as to a uniform formol farm application. Your committee recommends the adoption of a uniform form of farm application^ including the introduction of the two-thirds value clause on buildings and the con- tents when belonging to tenant-farmers, and farther, that the subject be referred to a joint committee of the branches, to report thereon by next semi-annual meeting the same to be named by the president, — Carried. The following were appointed accordingly : — Montreal : Glasgow and London, Imperial. Liverpool and London and Globe, Boyal ; Tortwito : Agricultural, City of London, Mercantile and Waterloo. 55. Dwellings and Public Boardii,g Houses. — (Item No. 19 ) The advisability of including dwellings, and the deletion of pablic boarding houses from the tariff as misleading. Dwellings having been previously dealt with, and boarding houses having been dealt with by the general meeting, disposes of this item. €72 MINUTES. 56. Cattle Sheds. While not referred to the committee, they would recommend that the rating in the taritf on this risk be supplemented by rating cattle sheds when nearer than 8U feet to a distillery, the same a-> the distillery. (t. F. C. smith, President. EOBEET McLEAN, ] «, , . ALF. W. HADKILL, | -Secrefanes. B. EXTRACTS from: THE BOARD MINUTES OF THE WILLERS' AND MANU- FACrURERS' INSURANCE COMPANY, OF Um APRIL, 1886. " The following letter from the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association wasread^ " * Toronto, 7th April, 1886. " ' Dear Sir, — I am in receipt af your notice of withdrawal of the Millers' and Manufacturers' Insurance Company from the association. I beg to refer you to article 11 of the constitution that such withdrawal shall not take effect for a period of three monihs from the date of such notice. You will kindly send me the com- pany's cheque for 825.00, being the proportion of your company towards the ex- penses of the association, and which by article 10 of the constitution, " all dues to the end of the current year," must be paid. " * I am, dear sir, years truly, " ' ROBERT McLEAN, Secretary. "'Secretary Millers' and Manufacturers' Insurance Company, Toronto.' •* The following statement from Mr, Eowland regarding the above was read and approved : — " * Referring to the letter from the secretary of the Board of Underwriters, dated Vth April, 1 will state as a matter of record, that at the interview with the Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association in December lasc, it was stated that the schedule rating then in progress would materially reduce the rates on mills and other special hazards, anl the bafety of any company underwriting on a lower cash basis than schedule rates after they came into force, was questioned. " It was on this understanding I urged joinirg ihjD association, the schedule rating as promulgated I now find to be the reverse of what I was led to believe it would bo, in place of materially reducing the then exacted rates on mills it makes a material advance on them, in some cases upwards of twenty-five per cent. I there- fore in view of all the circumstances can see no reason why the withdrawal should not take effect from the date of the notice of withdrawal sent to the association, viz, 6th April. W. H. HOWLAND, Vice-President: " F. TORONTO BOARD OF FIRE UNDERWRITERS. Agenda, Annnal Meeting at Board Room, Toronto, at II a.m., 19th January, 188T. 1 . Commission to Special Agents. — That no special agent shall be allowed to receive commission except on business placed in the company for which ho is a registered special agent. (By B. P. Pearson. 7-10-86.) 2. Schedule Eating. — That this board adopt the rules adopted by C. F. U. A. at thbir semi-annual meeting, on 14th Oct., applying to special risks and numbered Id minutes of each meeting as items Nos. 93 and 91. (^By J. B. Reed. 2810-d6.) INSURANCE. 673 3. Workmen's Permits. — That all applications involvin^i: any question as to the propriety of granting workmen's permit in certain cases where a doubt exists, freo of any charge, be in future required to be referred to the secretary lor decision, such decieion to be recorded in a book to be kept for the purpose at the office of the association. (ByE. N. Gooch. 4 11-86.) 4. Carpenters* Bisk on Specials. — The question as to whether carpenters' risks should be charged on specials when shut down for repairs, when the rate paid is higher than carpenters' risk, was referred to the annual meeting. (11-11-86.) 5. Protective Police and Fire Patrol Co. — Toronto, Nov. 1 1th, 18S6. — The com- mittee to whom was referred the letter of the Protective Police Fire Patrol Co., drawing the attention of the board to the aid which the organization will afford against incipient fires, thus avoiding serious losses, beg to report that inasmuch as the company has the approval of the municipal authorities and aid of the city police force, thtis ensuring their services being of great value, would recommend that the charge iu special and schedule rated risks of 25c. for want of watchman and watch- clock be allowed, and that such risks so protected be registered with the secretary for reference. Respectfully submitted, W. Henderson, Chairman. (25 11-86.) 6. Grain Business. — That companies may be at liberty to give grain merchants what commission they like on grain business only. (By C. E. Maddison. (9-12-86.) 7. Special Agents' Bules and Begulations. — Mr. Gooch gave notice that at the approaching general meeting he would move the le-consideration of all rules and regulations affecting special agents and caavaseers; aiso that the employment of such special agents be prohibited, and only salaried officers empioyed, who, how* «ver, may also receive commission. 8. Amendment to Constitution and Bules. — To amend the constitution and rules, with a view to prevent irregular practices in the allowing of rebates or paying com* mission to the assured or any of his employees, and to provide better taoilities for detecting violations, by statutory declaration or otherwise, and for penalties for all infractions of tariff. (By J. B. Eeed.) 9. Endorsement Fees. — To reconsider the charge for endorsement fee. (By J. B. Eeed.) 10. Agents representing Non-Tariff Companies. — That hereafter no office or persoa holding official connection with a non-tariflf office, or acting as agent or eub-agent for a non-tariflf office, shall be eligible to represent or act for a tariff c ffice, whether as general agent, sub-agent, or in any other capacity whatever. (By J. B. Eeed.") See minutes of meeting, 3rd February, 1887, section b3. 11. Election of Offtcers. 12. Other business can be introduced with the consent of the meeting, provided, notice be given at a previous session . WM. HENDERSOX, President. EGBERT McLEAN, Secretary. TORONTO BOARD OP FIRE UNDERWRITERS. Extracts from Minutes of Annual Meeting. Companies represented: — Wm. Henderson (Hartford) President; ^tna, British America, Caledonian, Citizens, City of London, Commercial Union, Connecticut, Fire Insurance Association, Glasgow and London, Guardian, Hartford, Imperial, Lancashire, Liverpool and London and Globe, London and Lancashire, London Assurance, Mercantile, Waterloo, National of Ireland, North British and Mercantile, Northern, Norwich Union, Phcenix of London, Queen, Royal, Royal Cauadian, Scottish Union, Western. Phenix of Brooklyn, Queen City, not represented. The minutes of last annual meeting were taken as read . 1. Adjournment — In consequence of the delay in the arrival of trains from the east, on motion the meeting was adjourned till 2.30 p.m. 3—43 ■67 1 MINUTES. MoENiNa Sbssion, Toronto, 20th January, 1887. Met pursuant to adjoornment at 10 a. m , Wm. Henderson, (Hartford) president. The Minutes of the afternoon session of the 19th inst. were read ar.d confirmed. 3. Commission to Agents— (^^o. 1 in Agenda) — Mr. Pearson spoke in favor of his motion, but on its being pDlnted out that the matter would be dealt with under Nos. 7 and 8 in the agenda, he agreed to defer his motion for the present. A member present raised the question as to what rules, if any, were now in force in the Toronto Board in regard to special agents — and whether or not these rules had been maintained daring the past year. The president in reply said that the rules passed at the last annual meeting in regard to special agents were in lorce, but action was delayed at the request of a member to enable him to hear from his head office in reference to the matter. A special general meeting in reference to this matter was held on the 13th and 14th May — which was adjourned to 27th May — and then further adjourned to meet at the call of the president. Before that meeting was called, a deputation consisting of Messrs. Gooch, Duncan, Clark and Reed went to Montreal to consult with the head offices there in reference to the subjoots dealt with at these special meetings of the board. The president called a special meeting on the 15th June, at which a re^port from Ihe committee that visited Montreal was considered. On motion of Mr. Gooch, seconded by Mr. Magurn, the report was received ; and on motion of the same gentlemen, the meeting was adjourned to meet on th© 24th June for the " consideration of the report of the committee and other matterg on the agenda. At the afternoon session of that day, the whole question of rules and regulations re agents was taken up; and the rules adopted at the annual meeting m January, 1886, were considered clause by clause, and amended as per minutes of that date. At this meeting, Messrs. Brown, of the Glasgow and London ; G. F. O. Smith, of the Liverpool and London and Globe ; and Thos. Davidson, -of the JSorth British and Mercantile, from Montreal, were present. On the 26th Jane, at the request of Messrs. Smith and Davidson, a meeting was held of the Toronto chief representatives of companies to confer with them upon the subject of the Toronto Board. The proceedings of all these meetings will be found in the printed minutes of the dates named. 4 Special Agents— (Nob. 1 and 7 on agenda) — Moved by Mr. Gooch, seconded by Mr. T. R. Wood, That in view of the injurious consequences to fire insurance interest, and the serious tax upon the commission of regular agents, resulting from the pernicious system of special agents, a vote by companies of the members of this board be taken as an expression of opinion, declaring it desirable that the employment of all special agents in the city of Toronto be discontinued. —Carried. The vote by companies being called for, resulted as follows : Yeas—A^inAf British America, Caledonian, Citizens, City of London, Commercial Union, Connecti- cut, Fire Insurance Association, Glangowand London, Guardian, Hartford, Imperial, Lancashire, Liverpool and London and Globe, London Assurance, Mercantile, National of Ireland, North British and Mercantile, Northern, Norwich Uqion, ^ueen. Royal Canadian, Scottish Union and National, Waterloo and Western— 25. Ifays — Royal — 1, London and Lancashire, Phenix of Brooklyn and Queen City were not present and the Phoenix of London declined to vote. Moved by Mr. J. Maughan, seconded by Mr. S. F. Magurn, Q hat this board adopt the rules and regulations as paseed by the companies in Montreal, regulating special agents in that city. — Lost. Re schedule rating (No. 2 on Agenda), moved by Mr. Reed, seconded by Mr. Davidson, That where, by reason of the construction, or by some special feature of the risk, a strict application of the schedule extras would inflict a manifest injustice, the secretary shall have power— subject to confirmation by the board — to modify INSURANOK. 6W the extras in the schedule with regard to such special risks. And further, whereas the strict application of the extra required by the schedule rating for boiler, causes, in many instances, an injustice to the assured, where the boiler is used for heating only, and similarly as regards iron smoke stacks on buildings which do not endanger the factory proper, it shall be at the discretion of the secretary to modify or abolish altogether the extras in question, if circumstancas warrant such action. — Carried. 5. Competition with Mutuah for Standard Bisks. — (N"o. 2 on agenda). That when a manufacturing risk has been so constructed or improved as to be rendered eligible for acceptance by the New England mutual insurance companies, such risks may, upon application, be exempted from the operation of any tariff, and shall then be specially rated by the board, according to the circumstances of each caae, but such specially rated risks shall be inspected at least twice a year as a guarantee that the standard for which the special rating was granted is being maintained, the expenses of such inspection to be borne by the companies interested in the risk. — Carried. 6. Special Agents and Amendments to Constitution — (Nos. 1, 7 and 8 on agenda). On motion ttfesers. J. J. Kenny, Gr. F. C- Smith, S. C. Duncan-Clarke, E. N. Gooch and J. B. Reed were appointed a commitUe to consider the whole question of special agents and amendments to constitution and report thereon duringthe afternoon session. The meeting then adjourned until 3 p.m. Morning Session, Toronto, 2l8t January, 1887. Met at 10 a.m., pursuant to adjournment, Wm. Henderson (Hartford), president, 9. Report of Committee re Special Agents (Nos. I and 7 on Agenda) — The con- sideration of this report was resumed, beginning at section g. To this section the lollowing amendment was made: Moved by Mr. Kirkpatrick, seconded by Mr. Maughan, That there bo no deposit whatever from companies. The vote on this amendment by companies wis as follows : Yeas : —British American, Commercial Union, Glasgow & London, London As- surance, National of Ireland, Northern, Queen, Royal — 8. Nays — Caledonian, Citizens, Connecticut, Guardian, HM"tford, Lancashire, Liver- pool and London and Globe, North British and Mercantile, Western — 9. Amendment was lost, and section g as in report, was carried. The remaining sections, A, i, j, k, I, m, n and o were, with slight amendments, adopted* 10. On motion of Mr. Kenny, the report of the committee, as amended, was adopted, as follows : 1. That as the abrupt termination of the present arrangements between com- panies and special agents may entail inconvenience upon some members, it is desir- able, until the adoption of a rule abolishing special agents, at once to define and im- prove the rules governing this board as regards special agents. 2. That all existing rules referring to city and special agents be repealed, and the following substituted therefor, and declared to be tho rules of this board, and binding on and after 1st March, next : (a,) A Toronto agent is defined to mean individuals or firm, not exceeding three persons in number, duly authorized by a head office located elsewhere to re- present a company or companies, mambers of the bgtard, in the city of Toronto, to which he or they are directly appointed, and who shall register, as hereinafter pro- vided. It being understood that such Toronto agents are not prohibited from fol- lowing other occupations in addition. / (6.) Bach company having its head offio,b located in Toronto shall have the privilege to appoint a firm or individuals as c^ty agent or agents not exceeding three persons in number, who shall be directly attfAched to such company, and who shall register as hereinafter provided, it being understood that such city agents are not 3— 43i / / 676 MINUTES. prohibited from following other occapations in addition, nor from representing m )re than one company. Special agents may be appointed, as hereinafter provided : (c.) Only persons who are bona fide ongag ^d in the occupation of soliciting or can- vassing for fire insurance business, or fire and life insurance business, and whose chief occupation this is, shall be eligible as special agents, except that persons who are really and bona fide real estate or house and land agents, and have an ofl&ce and definite place of business for that purp ose shall be eligible as special agents. (at.) Any person desiring to act as a special agent for any fire insurance com- pany in Toronto or Parkdale, and to carry on such business with any company, a member of this board, shall make application in writing to the secretary to be re- ^stered for such purpose, and stating his willingness to comply with the rules and regulations as to special agents, which application shall be submitted to a regular meeting of the board, and at the next subsequent regular meeting it shall be granted, except the eligibility of the applicant is questioned by any member of the board, when the matter shall be deferred to the next regular meeting, and shall then be decided by the vote of the members present, the vote to be taken by ballot (a ma- jority electing and a two-thirds vote rejecting), and such rejection shall be conclu- sive and prevent any re-nomination for six months after date of such rejection. All special agents must be re-elected annually at ihe last regular meeting in February, and after the regular one week's notice shall have been given . (e.) No commission shall be paid directly or indirectly to anyone not a member of this board, unless as provided for in this section and in sections 4 and 5 of the rules. No special agent shall act for more than one company. To such special agents a commission may be paid only by the company whose special agent he is. Cf.) Upon the application being granted by the board, the applicant shall sign, in a book kept by the secretary for that purpose, an agreement to observe the follow- thg rules : — 1. That he is bona fide engaged, or to be engaged, in soliciting fire risks for the company he represents, or seeks to represent, and that he will not receive nor parti- cipate in commission on the business of any mercantile or manufacturing establish- ment in which he is or may be engaged as principal or employee. 2. That he will not directly or indirectly permit the assured or any employee thereof, or any other person, to participate in his commission. 3. That he will not directly or indirectly give nor offer business, either new or renewal, to any company except the one whose registered special agent he is. 4. That he will strictly conform to all rules, regulations and rates of the board, and in no way whatsoever seek to evade or connive at any evasion of the same. 5. That he will forthwith answer as required any and all questions which may be put to him by the secretary, with regard to the placing or renewing of risks. (a. That in event of his company cancelling a risk upon which he shall have received a ccjnmission, he will return the commitsion upon the unearned premium; 7. That penalties for the infringement of any of the foregoing rules, or non- payment of a nremiujn due a company after it has been received from the assured, or other dishonorable Cv>>^duct, shall be a fine, as fixed by the board, for the payment of which, or his dismissal the company whose registered agent he is shall be re- sponsible ; and in the event of his dismissal by his company for the non-payment of such fine, he shall be ineligible for re-appointment for one year from date of dis- qualification. The secretary shall then iaJ^^^ to the applicant, upon his payment of the fee as required by the next subBoqueiC?^ section, a certificate permitting him to transact business as a special agent in the c">ty of Toronto and Parkdale for such company. (^f.) Every person taking out * certificate as a special agent shall pay to this board an annual fee, which shall b"*® '° ^^^ ^^^^ o^ those confining their business strictly to that of fire insurance only • ^25, ani to all others, 850. The commissioa payable to parties coming under the 1^°^ class and who do not confine their business strictly to fire insurance shall in no ca>8® exceed ten per cent. \ INSURANCE. 617 (A ) Certificates shall require to be renewed and fees to be paid on the Ist of March in each year. For certificates granted to new applicants subsequent to the 1st March, the annual fee shall be chargeable yro rata for the unexpired portion ain basinesa. — Carried 15 to 5. Mr. Kenny then moved, seconded by Mr. Gibbs, That companies be permitted to allow such commission or rebate on grain biisi- ness as they may deem proper to grain merchants in the city of Toronto, Moved in amendment by Mr. Sims, seconded by Mr. Vincent, That in view of the fact that new rules of discipline have been adopted at the present meeting, it is inexpedient to come to a decision on the matter involved in the main resolution and its amendment, until it be seen whether the new rules will not remedy the abuses now complained of in connection with grain business. If, how- 676 MINUTES. prohibited from following other occupations in addition, nor from representing mjre than one company. Special agents may be appointed, as hereinafter provided : (c.) Only persons who are bona fide ongag !d in the occupation of soliciting or can- vassing for fire insurance business, or fire and life insurance business, and whose chief occupation this is, shall be eligible as special agents, except that persons who are really and bona fide real estate or houee and land agents, and have an office and definite place of business for that purpose shall be eligible as special agents. (ci.) Any person desiring to act as a special agent for any fire insurance com- pany in Toronto or Parkdale, and to carry on such business with any company, a member of this board, shall make application in writing to the secretary to be re- ^stered for such purpose, and stating his willingness to comply with the rules and regulations as to special agents, which application shall be submitted to a regular meeting of the board, and at the next subsequent regular meeting it shall be granted, except the eligibility of the applicant is questioned by any member of the board, •when the matter shall be deferred to the next regular meeting, and shall then be decided by the vote of the members present, the vote to be taken by ballot (a ma- jority electing and a two-thirds vote rejecting), and such rejection shall be conclu- sive and prevent any re-nomination for six months after date of such rejection. All special agents must be re-elected annually at xhe last regular meeting in February, and after the regular one week's notice shall have been given . (e.) No commission shall be paid directly or indirectly to anyone not a member of this board, unless as provided for in this section and in sections 4 and 5 of the rules. No special agent shall act for more than one company. To such special agents a commission may be paid only by the company whose special agent he is. Cf.) Upon the application being granted by the board, the applicant shall sign, in a book kept by the secretary for that purpose, an agreement to observe the follow- fbg rules : — 1. That he is bona fide engaged, or to be engaged, in soliciting fire risks for the company he represents, or seeks to represent, and that he will not receive nor parti- cipate in commission on the business of any mercantile or manufacturing establish- ment in which he is or may be engaged as principal or employee. 2. That he will not directly or indirectly permit the assured or any employee thereof, or any other person, to participate in his commission. 3. That he will not directly or indirectly give nor offer business, either new or renewal, to any company except the one whose registered special agent he is. 4 . That he will strictly conform to all rules, regulations and rates of the board, and in no way whatsoever seek to evade or connive at any evasion of the same. 5. T^at he will forthwith answer as required any and all questions which may be put to him by the secretary, with regard to the placing or renewing of risks. 6. That in event of his company cancelling a risk upon which be shall have received a ccrnmission, he will return the commibsion upon the unearned premiumt 7. That penulties for the infringement of any of the foregoing rules, or non- payment of a premiu.'d doe a company after it has been received from the assured, or other dishonorable conduct, shall be a fine, as fixed by the board, for the payment of which, or his dismissal, the company whose registered agent he is shall be re- sponsible ; and in the event of his dismissal by his company for the non-payment of such fine, he shall be ineligible for re-appointment for one year from date of dis- qualification. ' The secretary shall then is»ue to the applicant, upon his payment of the fee as required by the next subsequent section, a certificate permitting him to transact business as a special agent in the city of Toronto and Parkdale for such company. (jr.) Every person taking out a certificate as a special agent shall pay to this board an annual fee, which shall b^ in the case of those confining their business strictly to that of fire insurance only. $25, and to all others, S50. The commission payable to parties coming under the l^nd class and who do not confine their business strictly to fire insuranoe shall in no case exceed ten per cent. \ IN6TIEAN0B. 6*77 (h ) Certificates shall require to be renewed and fees to be paid on the Ist of March in each year. For eeriificates granted to new applicants subsequent to the 1st March, the annual fee shall be chargeable pro rata for the unexpired portion of the year, but the amount shall be not less than one-fourth of the annual fee. (i.) That a special agent shall not be allowed to act as a broker, or to receive a commission from another agent, or from any company except the one whose special agent he is; and no special agent shall be allowed to receive commission or any other consideration on any business except that which is placed in the company for which he is registered special agent, (j.) Any charge of infraction of rules or regulations preferred against a special agent shall be dealt with in the same manner as provided for in rules Xos. 20 and 21, as amended, for Toronto or city agents, and to be subject to the same penalty. {k.) The non-payment of a premium due a company by a special agent, after he has received the same from the assured, shall be held to be a violation of the con- dition upon which his certificate was issued, and phall be dealt with accordingly, as recited in the next preceding section, (I ) Any company paying a commission or other consideration to any party not qualified to receive the same, shall be required to cancel the risk upon which it was paid, and such company shall not be permitted to accept a line on the risk referred to for one month from date of cancellation. (m ) Each company a member of this board shall register with the secretary of the board such Toronto agent or agents, city agent (or firm), as defined in sections a and b of these rules, and shall be subject to the regular rules of this board, and such of the foregoing rules as apply to them in transacting fire insurance in Toronto and Parkdale. (n.) A list of all agents and special agents shall be posted in the board rooms by the secretary for reference. (.... 443,669,913 41,602,862 ■ Total " 895,551,784 486,272,775 N. Chatham, Ont , Tth April, 1888. Millers' and Manufacturees' Insurance Company, 24 Church Street, Toronto. Gentlemen, — At the fire which recently destroyed our cooper shop and adjoin- ing foundry the importance of having always ready for use plenty of pails filled with salt water was clearly demonstrated. The fire commenced in the early morn- ing of the 15th February. A strong cold wind was blowing direct on the mill and elevator, encircling them with blazing shingles and sparks. The wind drove some of the sparks through a small opening at the top of the elevator, some 75 feet from the ground, and in a moment the upper part was in a blaze. Some of the men. who were on guard, ran up stairs and promptly extinguished the fire in its incipient stage by using the pails and water casks, which are always kept on hand for that purpose. We have no hesitation in stating that if it had not been for this the elevator, together with a heavy stock of grain, undoubtedly would have been burnt; to the ground. We may mention that it would have been impossible to reach the spot with hose. Campbell, Stevens & Co. The elevator and grain at the time of the fire was fully worth $50,000. C. S. & Co. O. HAND-IN-HAND MUTUAL FIRE INSUEANCB COMPANY (FOUNDED 1873). rules. Instructions to Agents* The following rules will serve as your guide in carrying on your agency, and are framed with tne view of obviating constant reference to the chief office for instruc- tion : — INSUEANCK. 691 Character of Applicants^ Yon will guard against a«ceptiog proposals from persons of donbtful character, and those for insurance on property in the occupation of disreputable tenants. Other considerations, such as the pecuniary embarrassment of the applicant, a disposition to overvalue his property, risk from threats or from probable designs on the part of enemies of the applicant, and any other peculiar conditions which may xjommend themselves to you as worthy to influence you in accepting or declining, command your rigid scrutiny. Applications for Insurance. Must be written on the printed forms furnished by the chief office at Toronto, Ton will, before granting an interim receipt, see that every question in the form is fully and fairly answered, and that a complete, clear and distinct diagram of the building proposed for insurance, or in which property proposed for insurance ia placed, is sketched on the back thereof. You will, personally, thoroughly examine the conditions of all property offered for insurance, and will not commit such examination to a sub agent or assistant* You will mark well the condition of the buildings, the risk to which they are exposed from without as well as from within, their contiguity to other buildings, and their risks therefrom. You will personally verify the correctness of the plan sketched on the back of the application form, particularly that portion of it which specifies the distance from other buildings; and you will satisfy yourself that, in all other respects, the condi- tions of the property offered for insurance are truly described therein. You will note how ashes are disposed of, whether they are deposited in a wooden receptacle near to the building, or to others adjacent thereto, and when habitual negligence in this or in other important particulars is manifest, you will decline the risk. In considering an application, you will be so cautious and punctillious as that no exception could be taken to your acceptance, were the property to be destroyed on the day following its date . You will, in every case, give your own independent opinion of theTisk. You will mail all applications to the chief office at Toronto on the day on which they are received. Limit for Insurance. You will not, in any one locality, without special authority, accept one or more risks which, in the event of a fire occurring, would endanger a loss, in that locality, to the company, of a greater amount than the following : — 1st. On fireproof, stone or brick buildings, roofed with slate, metal, gravel or shingles in mortar 2nd. On stone or brick buildings, roofed with wood 3rd. On rough-cast buildings, or buildings entirely of wood, (according to risk) You will generally avoid accepting risks on leasehold, vacant or disputed pro- perty. This rule does not refer to valuable leasehold having a considerable time to run. Application for Insurance on Mortgaged Property Should be made by the mortgagor, in order to avoid the possibility of a double insurance by mortgagor and mortgagee on the same property. Endorsements. You will at once forward copies of all endorsements required to be made on a policy to the chief office at Toronto, for approval, without which you will make na alteration or endorsement thereon. 3-44^ 692 BEOOBDS. The Value of Property Oflfered for insurance is a consideration of vital importance, and will require your^strictest examination. You will in no case accept a risk for a proportion of more than'two-thirds to three-fourths of the actual cash value of the property. Division of Bisk. In taking applications, you will see that the different amounts required to be insured on different kinds of property under the same policy, are respectively appor- tioned thus : — On a brick dwelling, roofed with shingles, in mortar (No. Ion diagram) $l,00a On household furniture therein contained 1,000 On wearing apparel do 500 On piano do 200 On printed books do 300 $3,000 You will also see that specified amounts are placed on each building or tenement required to be insured. Compensation Will be a commission of per cent, on all premiums transmitted to the head office, which allowance is to cover postages and all other expenses. No other charge or expense will be allowed unless upon the written order of the president, counter- signed by the secretary. Accounts Must be made up to the last day of each month, and mailed, together with a remit- tance of the exact amount of balance, so that they may reach the chief office at Toronto on the 3rd day of the month following, at latest. Losses, Upon the occurrence of a loss covered, or partially covered, by one of the com- pany's policies, you will at once acquaint the chief office at Toronto with the fact by telegraph, stating the name of the insured and the number of the policy, and prob- able extent of loss, and will by first post give the fullest particulars as to partial or total loss and extent of same, the cause oi fire, whether any suspicions exist of the conduct of the insured, or of others, in respect thereof, what other companies, if any, are concerned in the loss, and ail other particulars which you may deem of import- ance or of interest to the company, — waiting instructions from the chief office or the arrival of the inspector. In the case of a partial loss of merchandise, you will see that the goods are at once assorted and arranged according to class, separating the damaged from the undamaged goods so that the damage can be easily ascertained, and otherwise placed in a condition for appraisal, in the manner described in the policy. You will answer all questions as to mode of procedure for recovery of claims by referring applicants to the instructions and conditions in this regard embodied in the policy. Bates. It would bo impossible to frame a table of rates applicable to every case, and you will understand that the table annexed gives the rate for ordinary risks. It will be found that unforeseen hazards sometimes present themselves, demanding aa increased rate. In circumstances under whioh you may consider it for the interest of the com- pany to alter the rate, either by way of increase or abatement, you will be guided ta INSURANCE. 693 some extent by the rates of other respectable companies having agencies in your neighborhood. There is a constant endeavor on the part of applicants to beat down the rates, and although the temptation may be strong to abate a very little in order to obtain business, it must be steadily resisted, as whenever rates are unwarrantably reduced, the result must be injurious to the interests of the company, and the insured. Eeasonable men, when the matter is properly explained, must admit that tho best guarantee they can have for the payment of a loss is, that the company has received a sufficient premium to enable them to meet their engagements. Special Hazards, Applications for insurance on special hazards, or property where steam is used for propelling machinery, must be approved by the head office at Toronto belore issuing an interim receipt or making the company liable for loss or damage, and for which special application blanks will be furnished. CLASSIFICATION. Ist Class — Stone or brick buildings roofed with metal, graVel, slate, or shingles laid in mortar. 2nd Class — Stone or brick buildings roofed with shingles. 3rd Class — Frame rough-cast, or veneered with brick. 4th Class — Wooden buildings. Mansard roofs — Other than stone, brick or iron, extra. Steam hoists — extra. SCALB OP CASH RATES. OCCUPATIOH. Academies, Day Schools and Colleges Auctioneers ^ Apothecaries Agricultaral Implemeat and Seed Sale Rooms Alcohol and Liquors in Casks -... Bakers ^..... Bams ~ Basket Makers ....> Ball Alleys Billiard Rooms Blacksmiths Blacking Makers ...v Booksellers ~ Bookbinders Boarding Houses, Public -. Brassfounders and Coppersmiths ~^ Brushmakers - Boots and Shoes, Sale Shop do by steam do without steam .. do catt'g and upp. sewing only Batchers' Shops Barbers' Shops Bottling Cellars ..w Box Makers, Paper and Band do do with steam BUILOIHG. Class of Risk. Rate per $100. 50 76 1 00 75 60 76 60 75 76 75 76 1 00 75 76 76 I 26 1 00 76 See 75 75 75 75 75 1 26 1 50 65 1 00 1 25 1 00 75 1 00 76 1 00 1 00 1 00 I 00 I 26 1 «0 1 00 1 00 1 60 1 25 1 00 special 90 90 00 00 00 50 75 3rd. I 00 1 25 1 50 1 35 1 25 1 50 85 1 50 1 50 1 50 I 60 1 50 1 50 1 50 I 50 I 75 1 50 I 25 Risks. 1 25 2 00 2 00 I 75 1 50 2 00 1 00 00 00 00 00 00 1 75 2 00 2 00 2 00 2 00 1 75 I 26 1 25 1 35 1 35 1 35 1 75 2 00 CONTKHTS. Class of Risk. Rate per $100. Ist. 50 1 00 1 25 85 60 85 60 85 85 1 00 85 1 25 85 1 00 76 1 25 I 25 85 1 00 1 00 85 85 85 1 50 2 (fQ 1 2nd. 3rd. 65 I 00 1 25 1 50 1 50 1 75 1 00 I 35 75 1 25 1 00 1 60 75 85 1 00 1 60 1 00 1 50 1 25 1 50 1 03 1 50 1 50 2 00 1 00 1 50 1 25 1 50 I 00 1 50 I 50 I 75 1 50 1 75 1 00 1 50 1 25 1 60 1 25 1 60 I 00 I 36 1 00 1 35 1 00 1 35 1 75 2 00 2 25 1 2fi0 J 4th. 1 26 2 00 2 00 1 75 1 50 2 00 1 00 2 00 2 00 2 00 2 00 2 60 1 76 2 00 2 00 2 00 2 00 I 75 1 75 1 76 1 75 1 76 1 76 2 25 2 75 694 BECORDS. SCALE OF CASH RATES— Oontimted. Occupation. Carpenters' and other workmen's Risk per month, extra Carpenters' Shops Caryers and Gilders, no carpenter work allowed Clothing, Wholesale Manufacturing by steam do Shop, without steam » Coal Oil (See page 32) „ Colleges M Concert Rooms, Public Halls Confectioners do Manufacturing Coppersmiths and Brass Founders Cotton in Bales Cornbroom Makers Court Houses - Crockery and Glassware, wholesale and retail Caloric Engines , Extra. Churches (Sea Organe) ^ (May be insured for 3 years for 2 yearly rates.) Clothing, Retail Sale Shop Coopers' Shops Carriage Sale Rooms Gttbinet Makers, by hand , Cigar Makers r, Cork Gutters « Curriers Chignon Makers (no singeing) BUILDIMO. Class of Risk. Rate per $100. 1st. 2nd. Srd. 4th, Dentists Drill Sheds .., Dry Goods, Millinery and Fancy Goods, Whole- sale ^ ^ , Dry Goods, Wholesale (Staple) , do Retail , Druggist^, Wholesale and Retail , Dwellings Dyers , Sating Houses, Saloons .......~ Engravers Bsparato Grass, in stacks or bcildings....... Fancy Goods and small wares. Wholesale.. Floor and Feed Stores Furniture Sale Shops, no repairing or other work done „ Furniture tiale Shops, including repairing and upholstering only Furriers and Hatters Gas and Steam Fitters Grain Store Greenhouses do tor three years Grocers, Wholesale ..-■ . . do Retail , Gansmitha 10 2 00 .1 00 1 00 75 60 I 00 76 1 00 1 26 76 1 00 60 75 15 50 75 1 75 1 00 2 00 75 75 1 50 2 00 76 50 60 60 76 1 00 37i 1 00 1 00 76 2 00 60 76 76 1 00 76 1 26 76 10 2 26 1 26 1 25 90 65 1 26 1 00 1 25 1 50 90 1 26 75 1 00 16 60 1 00 2 00 1 26 2 26 1 00 1 00 1 75 2 25 1 CO 60 76 76 1 00 1 25 45 1 25 1 26 1 00 2 00 76 1 00 1 00 1 26 1 00 1 60 90 76 1 00 1 00 10 2 50 1 60 2 00 1 35 1 00 1 60 1 50 1 50 1 76 1 25 1 50 1 26 1 36 16 76 1 35 2 25 1 50 2 50 1 35 1 36 2 00 2 60 1 36 76 1 25 1 25 1 35 1 50 50 1 60 2 00 1 36 2 00 1 25 1 36 1 35 1 60 1 36 1 76 1 25 1 26 1 36 1 36 10 3 00 2 00 2 60 1 75 1 25 00 00 00 00 GO 00 50 2 00 15 1 00 1 75 2 75 2 00 3 00 1 75 1 76 2 25 2 75 2 00 1 00 1 60 1 60 1 75 2 00 62i 2 00 2 60 2 00 2 00 1 60 1 76 1 75 2 00 1 60 2 00 1 50 1 00 1 50 1 75 1 75 Contents. Class of Bisk. Rate per $100. 1st. 2nd. Srd. 4th 10 2 00 1 25 1 25 1 00 60 1 26 1 00 1 25 1 26 1 00 1 25 60 85 15 85 1 76 1 25 2 00 1 00 85 1 50 2 00 86 50 76 60 85 1 25 37i 1 00 1 00 86 2 00 76 86 86 1 00 1 00 1 26 75 10 2 26 1 50 1 60 1 35 65 1 60 1 26 1 50 1 00 2 00 1 50 2 25 1 25 1 00 1 76 2 25 1 00 60 90 75 1 00 1 60 46 1 25 1 26 1 00 2 00 90 1 00 1 00 1 26 1 25 1 60 90 76 1 00 1 00 10 2 60 1 75 2 00 1 50 1 00 1 76 1 60 1 75 1 75 1 60 1 75 1 26 1 50 16 1 35 2 26 1 76 2 SO 1 50 1 36 2 00 2 60 1 60 75 1 26 1 25 1 36 1 76 50 1 60 2 00 1 50 2 00 1 26 1 36 1 36 1 60 1 60 1 76 1 26 1 26 1 36 1 36 INSUHANCK. 695 SCALE OF CASH RATBS— ConrtniKcr, Occupation. Glass Stainera, using Dry Heat. GloTe Makers, with Steam do withont Steam.... Glne Makers Hardware, Wholesale, if Oils (not Coal Oil or its products) or Turpentine are stored. Hardware, Retail, if Oils (not Coal Oil or its Products) or Turpentine are stored (With warranty in policy, prohibiting hazar- dous substances, such as Excelsior, Egypt- ian Grass, &c.) Hardware, Wholesale (no Oils) do Retail (no Oils) «..., (With warranty in policy, prohibiting hazar- dous substances, such as Excelsior, Egypt- ian Grass, &c.) Harness Makers and Saddler Shops Hatters and Furriers ^^ Hemp ^.. „ Hotels ^ Hospitals M Household and other Furniture ana fiffecis (same as Dwellings.) Houses of Refuge (same as Hospitals.) Hal Factories— Felt, with Steam < do Bilk, with .Steam do Straw, w:th oteam , Hoop Skirt Makers _.. ..« , Ice Houses and their Stables. Jails (same as Court Houses) , Japannera ..»..m^.. Jewellers' Stores, Wholesale and Retail. do Working and Silversmiths.... Leather Stocks, Wholesale ....„ do Retail ». ..... m^. Livery Stables Lunatic and other Asylums « Leather Belt Manufactures, with Steam-... do do without Steam . Laundries Lithographers, with Steam do without Steam „„ Market ITalla , Milliners' and Dressmakers' Shops ., Musical Instruments and Mnsic Sellers. Marble Bbops and Stock do Mannfacturers by power Nunneries — no 3 years Oakum Opticians BDiLDne. Class of Risk. Bate per $100. 1st. and. 3rd. 4th 1 00 1 00 76 75 75 75 1 00 50 2 00 1 00 1 50 75 2 00 60 1 50 75 75 60 75 1 60 50 1 00 75 1 60 1 00 75 1 00 75 76 75 1 60 60 00 1 25 1 25 1 00 76 1 00 75 1 00 1 00 1 00 90 1 25 65 2 25 1 25 1 75 1 00 2 00 75 i 75 1 CO 1 00 75 1 00 1 75 65 1 25 1 00 1 25 1 25 1 00 1 25 1 00 1 00 1 00 1 75 65 1 30 90 1 00 1 50 1 50 I 36 1 25 1 35 1 25 1 35 I 35 1 35 1 25 2 00 1 00 2 50 1 50 1 OO 1 35 2 00 1 25 2 00 1 35 1 35 1 25 1 35 2 50 1 00 1 50 1 35 1 50 1 50 1 35 1 50 I 35 1 35 1 35 2 00 75 1 50 1 25 1 35 1 75 2 00 1 75 3 00 1 76 2 00 1 60 1 75 1 75 1 75 2 00 2 50 1 25 3 00 1 75 2 26 1 75 2 00 1 60 2 50 1 75 2 00 1 50 1 75 3 00 1 25 2 00 1 75 1 76 1 75 1 76 2 00 1 75 1 75 1 76 2 25 1 00 2 00 1 50 1 75 Contents. Class of Risk. Rate per $100. 1st. 1 50 1 00 85 75 1 00 60 85 85 1 00 1 00 1 00 60 2 00 1 25 2 00 85 2 00 60 1 50 1 00 1 00 60 85 1 60 50 1 25 85 1 00 1 55 85 1 00 86 85 85 1 50 50 1 CK) 1 00 1 00 2nd. 1 75 1 25 I 00 90 1 25 76 1 00 1 00 1 25 1 25 1 25 65 2 25 1 50 2 25 1 00 2 CO 75 I 75 1 25 1 25 76 1 00 1 75 65 1 50 1 00 1 25 1 50 1 00 1 25 1 00 1 00 1 00 1 75 65 1 30 1 25 1 25 3rd. 2 00 1 50 1 35 1 25 1 50 1 25 1 35 1 35 I 50 1 50 2 00 I 00 2 00 1 26 2 00 1 50 1 50 1 25 1 50 1 35 1 35 1 36 2 00 1 00 2 60 4th. 2 25 2 00 1 75 3 00 1 75 2 00 1 60 1 75 1 76 2 00 2 00 2 60 1 26 2 00 1 50 2 50 1 75 2 00 1 50 1 75 3 00 1 25 2 00 1 75 1 75 2 00 1 75 2 00 1 75 1 75 1 75 2 25 1 25 2 60 2 00 2 00 608 RECORDS. SPECIAL mSKS— Concluded. Occupation. 28. Rolling Mills.......... ....~ ~, 29. Safe Maebrs, no wood-work « do with wood-work „ ..■ 30. Saw Factories, no tempering Tempering extra ~ ..... 31. Saw Mills — Propelled by Water-power - Bztra wlien Planing Machines are used in above Propelled bj Steam , When covered with Metal or other first-class Roofing, deduct Saw Mills— Propelled by Steam : When Boiler and Engine are in a firEt-class bailding attached to Mill deduct When covered with Metal or other first-class Roofing, and having the Boiler and Engine-House at least 40 feet distant, deduct. Saw Mills, Silent , 32. Soap AND Candle Factories When »team is used for boiling 33. Spice Mills and Coffee Roastkks 34. Starch Factories If Boxes are made on the premises add 36. Sugar and Syrup Refineries— With Steam Kilns , 36. Skwikg Machine Makers, no wood-work , do with wood-work .< Japanning extra., v Tanneries and Bare Extract Factories ^......•.... Extra tor Japanning ^ Tobacco Factories— Drying done by Steam , .... Drying done by Stoves, extra PorSnuffMillB do 89. Wood, Bituminous Coal and Lumber Yards — Distant from other yards or other external exposure 100 feet, enclosed with wall or tight fence *. When without such fence or wall Hard Coal . .... Tbni the average clause be inserted in all cases of lumberyards. 40. •KNITTI^G, WooLKN, FuLLiNG AND Carding Mills— Worked by Water- power ..,...»-„ Worked by Steam-nower ., 41. Wheelwrights AND Wood Turners .'. 37. 38. Rates on Buildings and Contents. Glass of Risk. Rate per $100. 1st. 2 00 1 50 2 50 1 50 50 2 00 1 00 5 00 50 2 50 2 25 1 75 1 60 2 00 1 00 2 50 1 CO 2 00 60 4 00 2nd. 2 25 1 75 2 75 1 75 50 2 25 1 00 6 00 25 25 50 3 00 2 75 2 25 2 00 2 25 3rd and 4th. 1 00 3 00 1 50 2 50 50 4 25 1 00 2 00 50 60 2 60 2 00 3 00 2 00 60 3 00 1 00 7 00 25 2 60 3 00 1 60 3 00 4 00 2 00 25. 00' 50 26 00 60 00' 00 00 oa 00 60 4 50 1 00 3 oa 60 60 1 60 2 00 1 00 4 00 6 oa 3 00 •Note —Picking to be in a separate compartment, and no fires or lights permitted within it ; if otherwise charge 60 cents extra. isteam, when used occasionally for any of the foregoing special risks, 20 cents p. c. per month extra. EXTRA RATES FOR REPINED COAL OIL. Building. Contents. Per $100. Per $100. OTer 3 and not exceeding 6 Barrels ..~ '. do 6 do 10 do .MM. do 10 do 30 do ....M. do 20— Special. 16 25 60 25 40 65 INSURANCE. 699- P. TORONTO BOARD OF FIRE UNDKRWRETBRS. (Extracts from Minutes.) Toronto, ITth February, 1887* Met this day at 3 p.m., Alf. W. Smith (Imperial), vice-president, in the chair. Minutes of the 10th inst. read and confirmed. 57. Peculiarity of Construction of a Building.— On motion, the following rule of the Canadian Fire TJnder-vrriters' Association was unanimoasly adopted, as follows : — " That when a risk, from peculiarity of construction of the building, is better than what was contemplated when the minimum tariff was established, or when a risk of any occupation not provided for in schedule rating is provided with fully equipped automatic sprinklers or automatic fire alarm, it shall be competent for this board, on application being made by the assured and on the recommendation of the secre- tary, to specially rate such risk, anything in the board rules or ratings to the contrary notwithstanding." 58. Deposit Guarantee. — At this stage of the proceedings a member asked if the deposit guarantee of $50, required by section 20 of the rules, as amended at the annual meeting, had been complied with. The secretary read the names of the companies that had made the deposit, when it was found that a number of members had not yet complied. It was then moved by Mr. Reed, seconded by Mr. Magurn, That whereas a number of companies, members of this board, have not yet complied with the rule regarding a deposit, be it Besolved, That this board do now adjourn to this day week, with instructions to the secretary to communicate with those companies that have not yet made the required deposit, and report to the board, on Thursday next, either their compliance with the rule or their reason for refusal. Carried unanimously. ALF. W. SMITH, Vice-President, ROBERT McLean, /Secretary. Toronto, 18th February, 1887. Dear Sir, — I beg to call your attention to paragraph No. 58, of the minutes of the Toronto Board, of the 17th inet., as belcw, and in compliance with my instruc- tions, I respectfully ask you to forward me your cheque for 850. No cheque will be deposited in the bank until all companies shall have complied with this rule of the Toronto board. Tours truly, ROBERT McLBAN, Secretary. EXHIBIT 46a. CONSTITUTION OP THE CANADIAN IRONFOUNDERS' ASSOCIATION. Adopted ISth November, 1865, revised 11th May, 1872, and again revised 28th April, 1880* PREAMXLE. Whereas, great loss is sustained by the ironfounders of Canada, from want of unity of purpose and action among themselves, which would empower them to establish rules for the regulation of the price of their manufactures, and the govern- ment of their workshops, ic is therefore deemed expedient to form an association for the protection and promotion of the general interests of the trade. "700 founders' association. CONSTITUTION. Art. 1. This association shall be named the "Canadian Iron Founders' Asso- ciation . " Art. 2. The Canadian Iron Founders' Association is formed for the following purposes : First : — The fixing of a general uniform rate for stoves and other foundry wares. Second: — The obtaining, by united action among the members, power to con- trol their workshops. Third: — The cultivation of friendly feeling and of mutual confidence among the members. Art 3. The members of the association shall all be iron founders. Art. 4. The annual subscription fee shall be ten dollars, or such amount as shall be required to meet necessary association expenses, payable at any time after the first regular meeting in each year on draft or call of the treasurer. Art. 5. Firm-} paying the above fees; and subscribing to the constitution of the association, shall be considered members, and be entitled to vote on any question, each firm having one vote. Art. 6. The officers of the association shall consist of a president, vice-president, Ireasurer and secretary. Art. 7. The officers shall be elected by ballot at the first regular meeting in each year, as also the standing committees. Art. 8 The duties of the president shall be to preside at all meetings of the asso- ciation, to verify accounts by attaching his signature to them, if correct, to call special meetings at the request of three voting members, and to cause immediate action to be taken should any member show caase of complaint. Art . 9. The duties of the vice-president shall be to preside in the absence of the president, and to perform his other duties when he is unable to attend thereto. Art. 10. — The treasurer shall take charge of all moneys belonging to the associ- ation, keep a correct account of all receipts and disbursements, and pay all aceouats certified by the president or his deputy. Art. 11. — The secretary, who may not be a member, shall keep all books and records of the association, conduct all correspondence, attend all meetings, and make correct minutes of the same. Art. 12. — The regular meetings of the association shall be held on the second Wednesday of February, and subsequent meetings from time to time during the year, as may be agreed upon or regularly called by the president. Art. 13, — To constitute a quorum at a regular or special meeting, there shall be present at least five voting members. Art. 14. — To alter or amend the constitution or by-laws of the association, a two-third affirmation vote of those present, who are voters, shall be required. The vote shall be taken at one of the regular rfieetings, and one month's notice of the contemplated alteration or amendment shall be given by the secretary in writing, who shall without any delay notifiy all the members of its purport. BT-LAWS. 1. At the regular meeting of the association the order of business shall be aa follows : — F.rst. — The constitution and by-laws shall be read. Second.— Minutes of previous meeting. Thiid. — Reports of committees. Fourth. — Communications shall be received. Fifth.— Blection of officers. Sixth. — General business transacted. 2. All members of firms present shall have the privilege of discussing any sub- ject under consideration, but the question shall be settled by a majority of votes. 3. All resolutions shall be in writing. STOVES. > 701 4. The president shall vote only in case of tie. 5. Any member or members having oaase of complaint, shall communicate the same to the president (in writing) who shall without delay give notice of the same to the grievance committee, and they shall take immediate aciion thereon. 6. The travelling expenses incurred by the direction of the president shall be paid out of the funds ot the association, on the order of the president . 7. No member shall be at liberty to retire from his obligation in connection- with the association until after the same has been discussed at a meeting called for the purpose, of which due notice shall be given to all members. 8. Should the. president receive notice of withdrawal from any member or members, he shall cause the secretary to give immediate notice to all the others, when a special meeting shall be called. 9. No stoves or hollow-ware to be shipped from manufacturers unless they are previously sold, and no stove or hollow-ware shall be sent out on commission or consignment nor shall any member bo allowed to store stoves or hollow- ware on the premises of a retail dealer or under his charge. This rule not to apply to Winnipeg jobbers representing members of this association. 10. All stoves of same pattern, design and number shall be sold at a uniform price, which will be arranged annually by a committee appointed for that purpose. lli No contracts shall be made for stoves or hollow-ware to extend beyond the current association year, ending with the second Wednesday in February. 12. Members shall send copies of their latest catalogues and price list to all members of the association applying for the same. 13. Whereas, it is deemed damaging to the trade to manufacture stoves of pre- cisely the same design, it shall be the duty of any member who is about to fit up an American stove or pattern, not original, to notifiy the members in writing ot such intention when he has actually purchased his patterns, giving name of stove and maker of same, where the party so doing shall be entitled to the exclusive control of such pattern or design, on condition that the stovc is in the market within six months of such notification ; further, all original patterns shall be held as the property of the inventor or owner, and shall be registered with the association ; and no member of this association shall appropriate and use for patterns any castings produced by any other member except by mutual agreement. 14. When notice is given by any member of the purchase of a new stove pattern for manufacture, the secretary shall also be notified, and he shall upon receipt of such notification, register in a book kept for the purpose, the hour and date received for reference in case of dispute. The notice to the secretary shall be accompanied by a fee of five dollars for each new pattern so registered, such fee to be at once handed by the secretary to the treasurer, and by him passed to the general funds of the association. If, however, the stove registered is not manufactured and placed in the market within the prescribed six months the fee shall be forfeited and the right to protection to said pattern lost. 16. Members may register any given name, provided such name (registered or unregistered) was not in use by any other member previous to the Ist January, 1887, when such registration shall entitle them to the exclusive use of same, for which a fee of two dollars will be charged, which shall pass to the general funds of'tho association. It shall be the duty of the applicant to notify the members of this association of its adoption and registration. 16. In cases where it is desired to make prices on any new stove or make changes in old prices (rendered necessary by alteration of weights, or otherwise) when the presence of the auditor cannot be immediately secured, members may have the privilege of doing so, provided that before quoting such prices by list or otherwise, they shall have furnished the auditor with a detailed statement showing how such prices are made up, which statement shall be made on a form of affidavit to be sup- plied by the auditor. 702 POUNDBUS' ASSOCIATION. Should a mombor fail to make the required declaration before quoting prices for new or altered stoves, which have rot been inspected by the auditor, he shall bo liable to a fine of not less than $25 for each size of such stove infringing this rule. The following bond of agreement has been adopted by the association and must be signed by each member : — BOND OF AGREEMENT. This indenture made the 2l8t day of February, A.D. 1888, between the under- signed members of the Canadian Iron Founders' Association, Witneseeth, that the undersigned members of such associatioB hereby, mutually, both for themselves and their respective firms, covenant and agree with each other as follows : — 1. That they and each of them will strictly adhere to and observe all rules, terms and prices as fixed and adopted by the Canadian Iron Founders' Association, at the meeting held at the city of Hamilton on the 2l8t and 22nd February, 1888, and that they will hold themselves respoQtively responsible for the actions of their respective agents and employees, and will not either directly or indirectly resort or have recourse to any subterfuge of any kind whatever (such as the giving of presents or iillowacces of discounts on other go^jds, or in any other way by the giving or promising of benefit) as an inducement in making sales of goods, and will not directly or indirectly violate the rules of the association when making settlements with customers, and it is agreed that all such subterfuge aforesai4, or any device re- sorted to in that behalf, shall be considered a violation of the covenants and agree- ments in this clause contained. 2. That the parties hereunto respectively, shall and will within ten days from the date hereof, deposit with the treasurer of said association th& sum of $£00 as shall be hereafter decided upon, as a security for the due observance and perform- ance of the covenants and agreements in this indenture contained such sum to bear interest at the rate of six per cent, per annum from date of deposit, and such interest shall bo payable annually. 8. That in event of any infraction or violation of any or either of the terms or stipulations in this indenture contained, by any member of such association, being a party hereto or by any agent, salesman or employee, of any such member or firm being a party hereto, a fine may be inflicted to the full amount of the deposit, or such sum as the court provided for in article 5 of this bond shall impose, and the said fine, together with all accrued or accruing interest thereon, shall be passed to the (unds of the said association, to be dealt with and devoted to such usages and purposes as said association may deem proper, and it is agreed that the taking of an order by an agent, salesman or employee, which the house refuses to accept on other than the regular terms, shall constitute a violation on the part of the agent only, 4. Should any member of the association have reason to suspect that any other member of the association is infringing any of the rules and regulations of the said association, or any covenant in this indenture contained, such member so suspecting the other, shall be at liberty to obtain from the members or firms being parties hereto, a written denial of the charge of suspicion preferred, and should any member decline to sign such written denial when requested by any other member, such refusal shall be ground per se for the preferment of a charge under the penalty clause herein contained, and should any member after getting such written denial etill feel dissatisfied, and have proof that the party giving such denial has been guilty of violating the terms of this agreement, or any of the rules or regulations of eaid association, he may, notwithstanding such denial, at once call together the court of referees as provided in the next succeeding clause hereof. 6. A court shall bo created which shall consist of the president, or vice-president and two members of the association, one of whom shall be appointed by the presi- dent and the other by the member making the charge against the party accused. And the duty and power of such court of referees shall be the investigation of any and all charges which may be preferred against any party to this agreement, and the STOVES, 703 xJecision of 8uch court shall in all cases be final and conclusive between the parties hereto, as well as final between the parties charged and the said association ; and the charges made shall be laid belore the said court by the party making them in ■writing, and the same shall be specific and definite ; and a copy thereof shall be delivered to the accused at least six days before the sitting of such court, of which sitting the party accused shall have due notice. 6. In case of any forfeiture for any cause, the whole or any part of the said sum deposited with the eaid treasurer, the party or member who has sustained such forfeiture, shall, within ten days from date of such forfeiture, deposit with the said treasarer suflScient to cover the amount of such forfeiture, which amount remaining in the hands of the treasurer, shall be held as security aforesaid, and the whole amount so deposited shall be subject to all the conditions and covenants in this indenture contained, and should the member so sustaining forfeiture fail to make such further deposit, the said association may, and shall have power to deal with, the matter as they shall see fit, and shall without delay take action upon the matter. 7. Should any member or firm withdraw from the association before the expir- ation of this agreement, which shall continue in force for one year from the 2l8t day of February, lh88, all moneys deposited with said treasurer of such association shall be forfeited by the member or firm so withdrawing, and sach moneys shall thereafter belong to said association and may be disposed of as the association shall ^eem proper. 8. In the event of the deposit required to be made by the second clause of this agreement not being made by the parties hereto, within ten days from the com- pletion of this agreement, we hereby authorize the treasurer of this association to draw upon us respectively for the amount of such deposit, and we respectively agree to honor and protect such drafts. 9. Should any violation of the terms of this agreement by any party hereto, come to the knowledge of any party hereto, the parties hereto respectively, both as individuals and firms, agree to make and prefer a charge for such violation against any firm or members so violating or accused, and do all that is necessary and proper to sustain such charge. 10. This agreement shall continue in force during the ensuing association year, and shall cover all transactions or violations happening during that period. 11. The parties hereto further agree that they will in each and every month, subseqaent to the date of the completion of this agreement, make and subscribe to, and forward by mail to the secretary of the said association, a declaration under the following regulations : — At the end of each month, a form of affidavit to be furnished by the secretary and returned to the secretary promptly. In any case whsre fifteen days expire witliout such aflldavit being sent in, a fine of five dollars shall be inflicted ; the secretary shall telegraph the delinquent, and in case no return is made within the month, tha deposit -of such member shall be forfeited, and the ease reported to the president for action. TERMS OF AGREEMENTS OF THE CANADIAN lEON FOUNDERS' ASSOCIATION. Formulated in 1875, and revised in 1877. Moved by Mr. A. Laidlaw, seconded by Mr. C. Gurney, that any member of this Association be empowered to offer and pay the sum of $50.00 to any customer who may furnish satisfactory written proof from the seller that any member had given better terms than those authorized by the Association rules, said $50.00 to be paid from association funds.— Carried. ^04 founders' ASSOOIATlbN. EossiN House, Toronto, Wednesday, 3rd March, IStS. Your committee, appointed to take into consideration and fix prices for the year for the several classes of stoves manufactured by the several firms who are members of the association, would respectfully recommend as follows: That the new prices- for the season of 1875-76 be in accordance with the following scale : — Self-feed base burners, two rows mica 7 cts. per lb. Direct self-feeders do do 7 do Self-feed base burners, one do 6f do -Direct self-feeders do do tif do Coal cook stoves..... 5f do Wood do 5 do Parlor stoves for coal .- ....5^ do do wood 5^ do Box stoves, light 4^ do do heavy, 400 lbs. and over 4 do Cylinder coal stoves 5^ do And all goods not named in above scale to be listed at last year's price, with per^ mission to deduct from all accounts which may amount to $500.00 up to $1,000.00 2 J per cent, discount, and from all accounts amounting to $1,000.00 and upwards a discount of 5 per cent., and to allow freight to all competing points, which points shall be named by the association. Not over $1.00 per 100 lbs. to be paid for scrap iron delivered in foundry yard. Your committee have to regret the many instances of bad faith which cannot be denied have occurred among the members of this association during the past season, and with a view of avoiding such occurrence in the future would recommend the following lor adoption by the association : — That each firm being members of the association shall deposit with the treasurer of the association as a guarantee of good faith the sum of $200, which shall bear interest at the rate of 7 per cent, per annum, and which amount shall be forfeited by a ay members who shall be guilty of an infraction of prices as adopted by this association. That a committee of three shall be appointed by the association, whose duties- shall be to investigate all complaints and charges referred to them by the president and whose decision in all cases shall be final, and should the committee so appointed fail to forthwith investigate any charges which may be referred to them by the president they shall each forfeit the sum of $200. That it shall be the duty of each member of this associatioii to notice any and- all infractions of prices, and on satisfactory evidence to enter a charge by giving notice to the president who shall at once place that matter in the hands of the proper Gommittee. All expenses of investigation to be paid by the association except in the event of conviction, when all expenses shall be paid out of the amount forfeited by convicted member, and the balance be paid to such charitable institution as shall be decided, upon by vote of the association. In the event of the adoption of the foregoing by the association, your committee would recommend that each member of the association sign the following agreement : We, the undersigned members of the Canadian Iron Founders' Association, do hereby pledge our word and honor that we will strictly adhere to prices, terms and rules as stated in the foregoing report and adopted by the association both in letter and in spirit; and will hold ourselves responsible for ourselves, our firms and our agents, and should a charge be sustained against either of our respective firms we individually agree to abide by the decision of the oommittee, and will not in conse- qnence of such decision refuse to abide by their awards nor will we withdraw from the association or claim any moneys forfeited by us. And in the event of the forfeiting by us of the amount deposited by us with the treasurer of this association, wo hereby order such amount be paid over to such charitable institution as the Canadian Iron Founders' Association may direct. undertakers' ccmbination. 705 This agreement to remain in force nntil the annual meeting of 1876 onleps changed by the association. By consent of the members present the above report was laid on the table and the election of officers for the ensuing year proceeded with. On motion of Mr. W. J. Copp, Mr. E. Garney, junior, was elected president On motion of Mr. Stea^art, Mr. Moore was elected treasurer. . On motion of Mr. Howse, Mr. McKillop was elected vice-president. On motion of Mr. B. Gurney, junior, Edward Tilden was elected secretary. The above report was then read by clause and after considerable discussion waa adopted with the following amendments : — Mr. Carmicheal moved in amendment to the report, seconded by Mr. Moore,^ That 2^ per cent, be allowed only on purchases over $1,000 to $2,000, and 5 per cent, in purchases over $2,000. — Carried. Moved by Mr. Stewart, seconded by Mr. Carmicheal, That $100 be substituted in place of $200 as a forfeit by any members not adhering to the prices and terms of the association for the year. — Carried. Moved by D. McKillop, seconded by E. Gurney, That members present at the meeting keep secret the transactions of this association from iron founders not members and from dealers. — Carried. EXHIBIT 47a. CONSTITUTION, BY LAWS, RULES OF ORDER, ETC., OF THE UNDER- TAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF ONTARIO, AND PROCEEDINGS OF THE SECOND ANNUAL CONTENTION HELD AT TORONTO, ON THE 16th SEPTEMBER, 1885. INSTITUTED AT TORONTO, ON THE 3bd DAY OP JULY, 1884, Officers, 1885-86 : President, J. B. Mclntyre, St. Catharines. Vice-presidents, George Hess, M.P.P., Listowel, 1st vice ; W. H. Hoyle, Cannington, 2nd vice ; W. H. Stone, Toronto, 3rd vice ; H. Neilson, Chatham, 4th vice ; S, Rogers, Ottawa, 5th vice. Secretary, C. D. Blachford, Hamilton. Treasurer, J. Young, Toronto. Executive Committee, John Ferguson, London, chairman ; James Muir, Port Elgin ; W. Wilson, Owen Sound ; J. W. Pattison, Brantford ; M. Roberteoo, Seaforth. Delegate to National Convention, J. B. Mclntyre, President, St. Catharines. MEMBERSHIP CREDENTIAL. Undertakers' Association op the Pbovinge of Ontario, Hamilton, 188 . This is to certify that M of has been admitted a member of the Undertakers' Association of Ontario, and is entitled to participate in all meetings and privileges of said association for the year ending 188 . Secretary. Present this card as your credential at all meetings of the association. proposition for membership. 3—45 .the undersigned doing business in , County of , hereby request the privilege of becoming a member of the Under- 706 BEGULATI0N8. takers' Apsooiation of Ontario, and promise, if elected, to abide by the constitatioa by-laws, rules and regulations that may be adopted from time to time. Signed, Date, 188 . Membership fee enclosed. Return this properly filled out to C. D. BLACHFORD, Secretary, Hamilton, Ont. PREAMBLE; The object of this association is to secure harmony in business, cultivate a more friendly spirit socially, to elevate and bring to a higher state of perfection our pro- fession, to disseminate correct principles ot business macagement, the best methods of protecting the interests of undertakers in the practice of their profession, as well as those of patrons, and to promote the interests of all recognized legitimate undertakers doing business in the Province of Ontario. CODE OP ETHICS. A funeral director, on entering the profession, as he becomes thereby entitled to all its privileges and immunities, incurs an obligation to exert bis best abilities to maintain its dignity and honor, to exalt its standing, to extend the bounds of its usefulness. He should, therelore, observe strictly such laws as are instituted for the government of its members. There is no profession from the members of which greater purity of character and a higher standard of moral excellence are required than the funeral director ; and to attain such eminence is a duty every funeral director owes to his profession and to the public. It is due the latter; as without it, he can- not command their respect and confidence ; and to both, because no scientific attain- ments can compensate for the want of correct moral principles. It is also incumbent upon the members of the profession to be temperate in all things. The nature of our calling takes us to the inner circle of the families that are afflicted. Secrecy and delicacy, when required by peculiar circumstances, should be strictly observed. The obligation of secrecy extends beyond the period of our professional services. None of the privacies of personal and domestic life should ever be divulged. It is derogatory to the dignity of our profession to resort to public advertise- ments, or private ctirds, or handbilU, invitiig the attention of the public to any of the wares connected with our profession. We should take strong grounds against advertising in the daily prints. All funeral directors should rely on their pro- fessional abilities and acquirements, and it ought to bo the only acknowledged right of an individual to the exercise and honor of his profession. No funeral director should ever interfere with an order where another funeral director has been previously called, aud under no circumstance should one funeral director take an order from another unless the first one be paid in full for his services, And is willing to withdraw. In case two funeral directors are called at the same time, to attend the same case both should show a willingness to withdraw, and leave the choice with the family. No funeral dirtctor should ever shrink from the faithful discharge of his duties in case of epidemic and contagious diseases. When pestilence prevails it is their duty to face the danger and to continue their labors, even at the jeopardy of their own lives. When a funeral director is called in cases of sudden death or accident, because the regular family funeral director is not at band, he ought to resign the case to the funeral director who has been doing that family's work, if he is desired by the family. When a funeral director accompanies the remains and funeral parly to a distant place, his duties should cease when they arrive at their destination, and the remains are placed in care of another faneral director. All that the funeral director who undertakers' combination. 107 Accompanies the party does after that should be as a friend of the family, or as an assistant to the faneral director who has charge of the final arrangements. Whenever a faneral director orders from a distant place a corpse prepared and shipped to his care, all expenses should be charged to the faneral director giving the order, and it should be considered a professional obligation, and payment made at once. There is, perhaps, no profession after that of the sacred ministry, in which a high-toned morality is more imperatively necessary than that of a faneral director's. High moral principles are his only safe-guide. CONSTITUTION. Section 1. This association shall be known as the Undertakers' Association of the Province of Ontario, and shall have for its subject the elevation and protection of those who are engaged in the undertaking business within its jurisdiction. Section 2. This association shall consist of undertakers doing business in the Province of Ontario in their own name. Sections. The officers of this association shall consist of a president, five vice- presidents, a secretary, and treasurer, who shall be elected by ballot at each annual meeting, and to hold office for one year or until their successors have been duly ap- pointed, except when but one candidate for any one office is nominated, such candi- date may be elected by acclamation. Section 4. This association shall have an executive committee, consisting of seven members, five of whom shall be elected by ballot, or appointed by the presi- dent, as the association shall direct, and the president and secretary shall be members exofflcio. Section 5. The meeting-) of this association shall be held annually at such place and time as may be determined by the association when in session. Section 6. This association shall be governed by such by-laws as it by a three- fourths vote may hereafter adopt, not inconsistent with the constitution. Section t. This constitution can only be altered or amended by a two-thirds vote of the members present at any regular meeting, provided that notice of the same was given in writing to every member of the association at least one month previous to the regular meeting. BY-LAWS . Article 1. It shall be the duty of the president to preside aver all meetings of the association. He shall enforce a strict observance of the constitution and by-laws, decide all questions according to parliamentary usage. He shall appoint all com- mittees unless otherwise ordered. He shall have the casting vote in case of a tie, and a general supervision of the affairs of the association. Article 2. It shall be the duty of the vice presidents to assist the president in the discharge of the duties of his office, and in case of absence, death or resignation of the president, they shall act as president, having preference in order of their election. Article 3. It shall be the duty of the secretary to attend all meetings of the asso- ciation, keep a correct record of the minutes of each meeting, and a correct record of all officers and members of each meeting, to keep a cor^'dct record of the aceounts of the association, pay over all moneys received by him to the treasurer, taking his receipt therefor, and to perform all other duties that mJiy belong to him by virtue of his office, and for his services shall receive the sum of 8100 annually. Article 4. It shall be the duty of the tre^»surer to make a full report of the fiscal affairs of the association at each annual meeting. The money received by him shall be paid out only by a vote of the association or order of the president, authorized by the secretary, and he shall give such bonds as the association may direct. Articles. The executive committee saall have charge of all preliminary ar- rangements, and shall prepare the busines.'} of each annual meeting, and perform such other duties as they may from time to time deem for the best interests of the asso- <$iation. And they shall also constitute a grievance committee, whose duty it shall 3-45J ^08 REGULATIONS. be 1o take action on all grievances reported to them by the secretary as soon as practicable, reporting their decision to the secretary ; their decision being final and can only be reversed by the action of the association in convention aastmbled ; and to keep a correct record of their actions and to report at each annual meeting. Article 6. There shall be a standing committee consisting of five, on constitution and by-laws and finance, and all matters relating to those subjects shall be referred to these committees for report. Article 7. This association will sustain any and all its members in good standing in the discharge of their duties towards one another and protect their interests from unprofessional conduct by a brother undertaker or manufacturer, who may violate the rules or regulations of this association. Article 8. All applications for membership shall be made in writing, upon blanks, furnished by the secretary for that purpose, and shall be presented to this association at any regular meeting, and by receiving a two-thirds vote of the members present at each meeting he shall be elected, providing he shall comply with the by- laws of this association. Article 9. All undertakers engaged in the undertaking business in their own name, at the present time, (8rd July, 1884) in the Province of Ontario, shall be eligible for membership, who is of good moral character, and who is provided with the necessary stock and equipments to professionally perform his doties. Article 10. Each and every party, Dr parties, who may after this date start busi- ness as undertakers within the jurisdiction of this association, may become members by making application to the secretary and paying the sum of $25, and shall be ap- proved by at least three out of four of the nearest members of this association in good standing to the applicant's proposed place of buisness, and receiving the appro- val of the executive committee. Article 11. Each new member when first starting business, shall within ' sixly^ days after his admission into the association, carry a stock of undertakers' supplies : such as caskets, coffins, robes, linings, hardware, &c., worth not less than $500 clear of all encumbrances. He shall also be required to build or purchase a hearse within six months afler his admission. Any new members not complying with the article shall be dropped from membership. Article 12. Firms composed of more than one member, can be admitted to the meetings of this association, but will have only one vote. Members may be present in person or be represented by proxy, said proxy to be associated with him as an as- sistant undertaker, acd a member of this association ; and where the membership is composed of a firm of more than one member, but one of said firm, or their assistants shall be allowed to vote or take any part in the business of the meeting. Article 13. Any member of this association who shall sell or dispose of his busi- ness shall notify the secretary of same, and he may retain his membership for six months upon the payment of all claims this association may hold against him. And if he again desires to start business within the jurisdiction ot this association after the expiration of six months he must proceed in every particular as a new member. Article 14. Any member of this association who shall sell or dispose of his under- taking business may transfer his membership to his successor upon a written appli- cation to the secretary, and receiving the endorsation of the executive committee. Article 15. Any member of this association who shall fail or make an assign- ment, may retain his membership providing he again starts business in his own name within three months after such assignment, unless otherwise ordered by the executive committee. Article 16. No member is allowed to hold membership for other than the place in which he resides. Article 17. An assistant undertaker in the Province of Ontario who shall be poseopsed of good moral character, and of a good professional understanding of hi& duties may, on the recommendation of the undertaker or firm, by whom he is em- ployed, themselves members of the association, become a member of this association by signing the constitution and by laws, and paying the membership fee of two dol- undertakers' combination. 709 lars. He shall not be eligible for ofS.ce or entitled to vote, except as a representative of the firm by whom he is employed. Article 18. Honorary Membership. — Parties who may live outside of this jaris- diction, and who have rendered valuable services to the profession, may become honorary members upon receiving a two-thirds vote at any regular meeting. Article 19. No member will be allowed to start a branch or separate store in the ■undertaking business, or to remove his business to another city, town, village or county, without first obtaining the consent of the executive committee, and nearest members, as provided in article 10 of these by-laws. Article 20. Ail charges, either against members of this association, or under- takers doing business in this Province, not members of this association, must be made in writing ; such charges to be delivered to the secretary, who shall place them in the hands of the proper parties for investigation. Article 21. Any member of this association who shall be found guilty of selling, giving away, or not properly disposing of or burying the remains of the dead, or those in authority shall pay for the same, shall bo expelled from this association, after conviction thereof. Article 22. If in any case a member should be found guilty as hereinafter pro- vided in by-'aws — article 23 — of violating any of the rules or regulations of this association, he shall be fined or suspended from membership. Article 23. Any member of this association who shall be found guihy of degrad- ing the profession by such unprofessional conduct as individually soliciting, or employing parties to secure business, or paying a commission, or agreeing to pay any person to solicit for him, before death, as well as after, or in any way conducting his business on a non-professional basis, which has the tendency to impair the honor, of the profession, shall be subject to the penalties of — article 22 — of these by-laws. Article 24. Any member of this association who shall be suspended, shall not be countenanced as an undertaker, and shall be deprived of all the rights and bene- fits of this as-sociation during suspension. Article 25. A suspended member can only be reinstated by the payment of such fine as may be imposed by the executive committee, and by giving evidence of his intention to faithfully uphold and maintain all rules and regulations adopted by this association. Article 26. Any manufacturing establishment of caskets, coffins, and under- takers' supplies, or jobber of same, of every name and nature, who shall, after duo notice, sell, or ofi"er to sell, any of their goods to a suspended or expelled member of this association, who has violated the by-laws', shall receive the merited rebuke from the members of this association by withdrawing their patronage. Article 27. Members of this association will not deal with any manufacturing establishment or jobber of undertakers' supplies who sell goods to private citizens or persons not members of this association acting in an unprofessional way, provided they do not desist after being notified by the secretary to do so. Article 28. Members of this association shall not purchase undertakers' supplies from jobbers, or from those who do not belong to the burial case associations. Article 29. All members are forbidden to sell, hire or lend any articles in oar line of business to any undertaker for use within the jurisdiction of this association, unless he be a member hereof in good standing, and was engaged in the undertaking business prior to the 3rd day of July, 1884, under a penalty of twenty dollars. Article 30. In order that every member shall feel himself at liberty to discuss any questions coming before the association, fully and freely, and without reserve, it IS hereby understood and agreed to, that all such discu.-isions shall be considered of a private nature, and any member who shall be found guilty of divulging any of the private business, or discussions, or affairs of this association, excepting such as are proper to be made public, shall, if convicted after a fair trial, be fined, repri- manded, or suspended, as the majority of this association shall determine, at any annual meeting. 710 REGULATIONS. Article 31. This association shall have charge of and general supervision over all local and county associations which may be formed under the rule of this asso- oiation, and shall decide all disputed questions arising in such local or district association. Article 32. Every member on his admission to membership shall sign a promise to abide by the conslitotion and by-laws of this association, and pay all legal de- mands against him, so long as he shall remain a member. Article 33. Every person or firm, on his or their being admitted to membership, shall pay his or their annual subscription previous to his or their name being entered on the roll of members. Article 34. The fee for admission to membership shall be two dollars up to Ist January, 1886, after which date it shall be tweniy-five dollars. Article 35. The annual subscription shall be two dollars, and any member in arrears for dues over one year, or having any fine standing against him over thirty days unpaid, shall be suspended, after due notice by the secretary, until all claims this association may hold against him shall have been paid. Article 36. Any member in arrears for dues, or having any unpaid fees or penalty recorded against him, is not entitled to vote or take part in our meetings until all arrears shall have been paid. Article 37. All rules that may now or hereafter be adopted for the government, benefit or policy of this association, shall be considered as part of the constitution and by-laws, and shall be respected and enforced as such. Article 38. Not less than twenty-five members in good standing shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business. Article 39. These by-laws can only be altered or amended by a two-third vote of members at any annual meeting. A CARD. This pamphlet, containing the constitution, by-laws and proceedings of the second annual meeting of our association, is sent to every known undertaker in the Province of Ontario, some five hundred in number. We want you to give it your careful perusal; and we feel confident that if it receives the attention it should, from every one of you, it will not only tend to give you a better opinion of the profession you are engaged in, but act as an incentive in urging you to lend your individual aid to place it on a higher level. To those who are not members of \he association, we hope it will be the means of showing them it is not only their duty, but will be to their interest to join us. Our manufacturers are doing their best to help us by working in unison with the association. We are now united with the National Association of the United States, which will materially strengthen our pusition. We have a membership of over three hundred out of four hundred and eighty undertakers in Ontario, and are now prepared to deal with would-be-undertakers who are trying to start business and cut oflF our patronage all over the country. We have means in our power to prevent it, and we shall not be slow to use them. The evils we are subject to at present we shall soon be able to abate, if we work harmoniously together and put in practice the motto, " in unity there is strength." Act honorably toward one another, and follow the instructions laid down in the code of ethics, and many of the present dif- ficulties will soon cease to exist To those who are not yet members we say, send in your application and join us before the admission fee is raised, and you will never regret it. THE SECBETAEY. SECOND ANNUAL SESSION. Proceedings of the Second Annual Meeting of the Undertakers^ Association of Ontario, The meeting was held in the Temperance Hall, Temperance Street, Toronto, oa the 16th of September, 1885, and was called to order by the president, J. B. Mclntyre, «t 10 a.m. UNDBRTAKBBS' COMBINATION. *ll\ The president appointed J. A. Schofield, of Dannville, assistant secretary, and then bade the members of the association a hearty welcome to this their annual meeting, inviting them to a free discasjsion of the matters brought forward. If any complaints had to be made this was the time and place to bring ihem before the association. The roll was then called, when the following officers answered to their names: J. B. Mclntyre, St. Catharioes, pi-esident; J. Walker, Port Hope, 3rd vice-presi- dent; W. R. Hoyle, Cannington, 4th vice-president; G. G Stnith, Barrie, 5th. Vice-president; J. Yoang, Toronto, treasurer; C. D. Blachford, Hamilton, secretary ; J. Fergason, London, chairman of executive committee; W.P.Power, Bowman- ville; D, Hogg, Perth ; R. Askin, Markdale; A. F. Herringtor, St. Mary's, and a hundred and wixty members, with Messrs. W. W. Halpin, A. Ward, W. Tees, J. T. Eobertson, J. 0. Wray, and V. Terriault, of Montreal, P. Blake, of Detroit, and A. Benouard, of Kansas City. C. D. Blachford, secretary, Hamilton, read a portion of the minutes of last meeting, when on motion of Messrs. Hoyle and Muir, it was resolved that the minutes as contained in the minute-book be considered as read. The president appointed the same finance committee as last year, snbstitutin^ the name of H. Neilson, Chatham, for that of Mr. Collard, i. e., S. B W. Carpenter, Tilsonburg; F. A. Latshaw, Dundas, H. Neilson, Chatham, J. Wolfe, Aru prior ; T. Gib bard, Napanee. Toe following were appointed a committee on by-laws, viz. : Messrs. D. Hogg, Perth; J. Muir, Port Elgin ; Gr. Bess, Listowell. Messrs. W. W. Halpin, W. Tees, A. Ward, T. Robertson, J. C. Wray and Y. Terriault, of Montreal, were welcomed by the president and given seats on the plitform. The secretary read the annual report, which was, on motion, received and referred to a special committee, consisting of Messrs Harrison, Strathroy; Eagers, Ottawa; Humphrey, Toronto. secretary's report. Hamilton, 15th September, 1885. Jfr. President and Brethren : — I respectfully submit the following report as secretary of the Undertakers* Association of Ontario, for the year ending on the above date : At the close of our last meeting, one year ago, wo had on our roll the names of one hundred and thirty-three members, since which there has been added the names of one hundred and sixty-one, making oar total membership at this date two- hundred and ninety-four. We have every reason to feel gratified at the progre^^s we have thus far made in our endeavors to form an association for our mutual protection and benefit, but in order to raise it to that standard which I feel confident it is the desire of every member to flee, we must have the hearty co-operation and support of each and every individual member. I think the sudden increase in our membership is owing to the fact that the {Undertakers in Ontario are becoming alivo to the fact that an organization of this kind would not only benefit them iu opposing opposition, but be a lasting and per- manent good, and I trust they will not be disappointed. There seems to be erroneous opinions existing amongst the members regarding Ihe objects of the association and the purposes for woich it was formed. These, I -think, will soon cease to exist, as soon as ibe members become better acquainted with the rules and workings of the organization. Several very important and absolutely necessary changes will require to be made in the by-laws, as they at present fail to cover the many points required to be settled by the executive daring the interim. Immediately after the last meeti' g, by instractions of the association, I had printed for distribution 500 copies ol the constitution and by laws adopted. This t 712 BBGULATIONS. number I found too small, as I have since been obliged to refuse several applications for a copy. A matter of great importance to this association, and one we have not been able to cope with during the past year, is that rejected candidates have in some cases obtained goods in the States of New liTork and Michigan. I have often regretted since our last meeting that the association did not join the National As-ociatioa when the mattor was brought up a year ago, and as joining the association will be the only way of effectually preventing rejected candidates from obtaining goods outside of the province I hope the association at this meeting will not put off this important and really necessary step any longer, but join at once, and elect a delegate to the National convention to be held in October. It will cost a per capita tax of 25 cents, and although this will amount to about 870 we cannot afford to delay the matter any longer. Some of our manufacturers are already complaining that the trade of new beginners is being driven out of the province. I have received several letters from Montreal asking the association to admit the undertakers of that city to membership in this association. As the agroement made ^th manufacturers of Ontario in April last did not extend to the Province ol Que- bec, and as we would not be able (should occasion rise) to give the undertakers in that province tbe protection we can in Ontario, after conferring with the president, we concluded to lot the matter rest until this meeting, when the subject can be brought up and discussed here. Invitations were issued to members of the profession in Montreal to meet with us here and take part in the discussion. I hope a number sire present. I am of the opinion it would be better for them to form an as30ciatioa for the Province of Quebec or city of Montreal, and have an agreement drawn up with the manufacturers the same as this association has, for if this association should admit them to membership it would make it so large that the officers would have more work than they would care to undertake, and the secretary be obliged to devote more time to it than anyone in business has to spare to have the work properly done. Toe labor of tha secretary of an association of this kind has far esceeded during the past year my a uiuipations when elected. It has been a very busy one for me. The work has been large and had to be attended to. I have written and answered several hundred letters in correspondence and have prepared a list of our members up to date, anJ as we are now entering on our second year it will be necessary for the gentleman succeeding me in this office to open a ledger account for each member 80 that the acooui ts of the a-^sociation may be kept in a systematic way, and that it may I e readily seen bow each member stands in regard to dues. Many letters have been ^e eived from undertakers, not members, asking many questions regar ling the assoo a ion, which I have invariably answered and sent a copy of our by-laws as far as the number printed would go, and I am glad to say that with few exceptions the gentlemen writing have sent in their applications and become members. 1 think we can now say the Undertakers' Association of Ontario is an established institution, for in the short space of fourteen months we have been able to number on our roll the names of two hundred and ninety-four members, a showing I believe no association on the other side of the line can put forward, and which proves the fact that a combination of this kind \a a long-felt want supplied, and which will not stop at this period of its existence, but proceed until tbe profession will not only be a profession in name, but in fact, and will be recognized by the public as such. We now have a maj 'rity of the undertakers in Ontario in the association, num- bering among these nearly all the leading ones of the Province, and in my opinion it is about time the admission fee to new beginners was raised to a larger sum i han the present small amount. It is the opinion of many there are already now mor*) under- takers in the Province than is necessary, and as we cannot reduce the number now doing business, we must look aroand us for some means to prevent any more from starting. I think the eaniest way to do this would be to raise the admission fee to new beginners to, say, fifty dollars; this would debar many from applying for meraberHbip, and as they could not obtain goods until accepted as a memhor, tbe advantage of this step will be clear to all. I would also suggest that a circular be undertakers' combination. *JlS ieeued with the new by laws to the effect tLat after the annaal meeting of i8S6 the admisBion fee to andertakeris not then members will bo twenty or twenty- tivo dollars. This will give all who are not now members a year to join. I think thoy should have that time, as some are slow to see the advantage of an UBSOciation of this kind. This would not interfere with the annual dues of the members, which could still remain at the present figure of two dollars, and the admission fee to all undertakers not now members be the same figure for another year. I hope this matter will receive the earnest attention of the association at this sitting. There is another matter I wish to say a few words on, and that is the subject q£ a price list. I believe it is the general feeling that some price list should be adopted ; one below which it would be against the rules ot this association to sell. I have received several complaints during the past year that goods w^re being sold in some localities far below a remunerative figure, and as we have no by-laws to cover a case of this kind, I was obliged to write that nothing could be done iu the matter until after this meeting. In view of these facts, it is my opinion it would be advisable to adopt a scale of prices adapted to the wants of the members, and I would suggest a special committee be appointed for this purpose to report during the afternoon cession. At the early part of the year the executive board, for the best interests of the association, deemed it necessary to call a meetini^ to confer with the Dominion Burial Case Association and endeavor to come to some agreement whereby a mutual understanding would be agreed upon regarding the sale of funeral goods to parties wanting to start business as undertakers and some other matters of importance lo the association Accordingly your secretary called u meeting of the executive aud requested the secretary of the D.BC. Association to do the same, whereupon we mot in the city of Toronto on the 22nd day of April and had the iollowing agreement drawn up : This agreement, made this twenty second day of April, 1885 between John B. Kolntyre, ot the city of Si. Catharines, undertaker, President ot the Uudenakera* Association of Ontario; Cm arles £>. Biachford, of the city of Hamilton, uudcriaker, eecretary of said association, and John Ferguson, of the city of London, undertaker, chairman of the executive commiito of said association, of the first part, and B Philp & Cj., of the city of Toronto, manufacturers of undertakers' supplies, D. W. Thompson & Co., of the same place manufacturers of undertakers' supplies; Cerumens Brothers, ot the city of Hamilton, manufacturers of undertakers' suppl-.es, and iha Ontario Casket Company (UmitoJ), Ridgetowo, of the second part; Whereas the majority of the persons doing business, in Ontario, as undertaker:*, have formed themselves into an association, under the above name, having for ife* object the elevation and protection of those engaged in the undertaking business in Ontario, and protection of the public generally; And whereas the parties of the second p^rt, all wholesale dealers in, and mana- facturers of undertakers' supplies, have formed themselves into an association under the name of the Dominion Burial Case Manufacturers' Association, having for its object the mutual benefit and protection of the members thereof, in their said trade and business ; And whereas the said Undertakers' Association of Ontario, at a meeting held At Toronto, on the 3rd day of July, 1884, agreed upon certain terms, now contained in the constitution and by laws of the association, which should govern the oondaet •of the members thereof; And whereas for the purpose of more effjotually carrying out the intention of , i;ho members of each of said associations, and the expressed objects thereof, as con- "tained in the said by-laws, con-tiiution and the agreement entered into between the rmembers of said Dominion Burial Case Afanufacturers' Association, the parties of the first part, on behalf of their association, and the said parties of the seuond part have agreed to execute this instrument ; Now, this agreement witnesseth that the said parties of the second part, in con- sideration of the premises, and the agreement herein contained do hereby promiso W4 KiaULATIOKS. and agree to and with the said parties of the first part as representing their said asBOciation and the different members thereof, that they the said parties of the second part shall not sell or give prices for, either directly or through their agents, any of their goods, manufacturers' or undertakers' supplies of any nature or kind whatsoever to any person or persons who after the date hereof shall commence busi- ness in Ontario, unless, and until they the said parties of the second part shall obtain irom the secretary of the said Undertakers' A-ssociation of Ontario, a certificate that snoh person or persons have become a member of such association. And the said parties of the secorid part do further promise and agree that alter due notice from the secretary of said hssocialion, they shall not sell or offer to sell any such goods to any suspended or expelled member of such association, until they have been notified by such secretary that such suspended or expelled member has been restored to full membership in the association. And the said parties of the second part do further promise and agree that they shall not mail price lists ot goods sold by them to any but recognized undertakers, and that ail price lists mailed shall be sent urder seal. And it is hereby agreed and understood between all parties hereto, that all pro- mises and agreements herein contained, shall extend to and be obligatory upon each and every firm or members of firms who are parties hereto, or are members of «itberofsnch association, but this instrument shall not be binding on any party until the same is executed by all the parties above named. And each of the said partieis of the second part doth hereby further promise and agree that in case any of them shall be guilty of any breach of this agreement; the party offending shall forthwith upon the breach being established, and for each breach forfeit and pay to the secretary of the Undertakers' Association of Ontario, for the uses of the asoooiation the sum of $50, and in case any such party should fail to pay such sum or sums, the parties of the first part agree to instruct all members of their association to abstain from dealing with the party so offending, and further that in case any of their members shall refuse to be governed by the rules of the association in that behalf, to deal With such member as in cases of other breaches by manufacturers, referred to in articles 22 and 23 of by-laws of said Undertakers' AssociatiOQ. This agreement shall be in force for one year from the first day of May, 1885. In witness whereof, the parties hereto have set their hand>). Signed in the pr«)sence of W. P. Prower, as to signatures of J. B. Mclntyre, C, D Blachford and John Ferguson. A. Mackenzie, as to signatures of R. Philp & Co^ D. W. Thompson & Co., Semmens Bros. , and the Ontario Casket Company. J. B. MoINTYRB, C. D. BLACHFORD, JOHN FERGUSON, E. PHILP & CO , D. W. THOMPSON & CO., SEMMENS BROS., THE ONTARIO CASKET CO. R. Pierce, Manager. I cannot let this opportunity pass without mentioning the pleasant relations «zisting, the ready compliance with which our requests have been granted, and the harmonious understanding which has characterized our dealings with the several mannfaoturers that compose the D. B. C. A. Our approaches have been met in that courteous and agreeable manner which makes such transactions pleasant to perform, and expresses the good feeling and mutual understanding existing between us, and 1 not only hope our future relations will prove as pleasant as the past, but by becoming more firmly connected together, be, as our interests are— identical. I have in a brief mdoner alluded to the changes I think would benefit the asso- n, and have given a short resumi of the work done. Several complaints have UNDBRTAKBRS' COMBINATION. 716 been received which I have been able to settle without laying before the executive committee. Most of these have been occasioned by the members not yet being thoroughly acquainted with the rules of the association. After some correspondence I have invariably put matters to rights without much difficulty. I have, to the best of my ability, performed the duties of the office to which you elected me, and before retiring from the position I desire to thank those gentlemen of the executive board and the members in general for their kindness and ready assistance during the past year whenever called upon for advice and counsel, and I can assure them it will always be a source of pleasant reflection to me that our relations have been so agree- able. In selecting a successor to fill this position, may he be one possessing superior ability to the present occupant, so that the good work you have begun and is only in its infancy, will be carried forward with greater zeal and energy, until the profes- sion is placed in that position it is our desire to see. SUMMARY. New applicants accepted since last meeting 6 New applicants rejected since last meeting 18 New applicants accepted since last meeting having pur- chased the business of a member of the association or of an undertaker eligible for membership 11 Members ceased membership by retiring from or selling their business 9 Total membership. 294 OBDRRS DRAWN ON TREASURSR. 1884. Sept. 25 Postage ordered last meeting I 13 10 Sept. 25 Printing ordered last meeting 16 50 Nov. 12 Printing by-laws, &o 2a 50 Nov. 13 Postage to date 9 50 1885. Mar. 16 Printing and envelopes (1,000) 2 50 April 23 Expenses of Executive Committee to Toronto... 24 00 May 1 Printing agreements 9 50 Sept. 16 Keturned proposition fees 42 00 Cash received to 15th September, 1885, $444, which has been handed to the treasurer and for which I hold his receipts. C. D. BLACBFORD, Secretary. TRBASUBBR'S REPOET. Toronto, 16th September, 1885. 15th September, 1885 :— Cash received to date $ 684 00 Cash paid as per orders 140 60 Gash balance on hand $ 543 40 JOHN YOUNG, Treasurer, Beferred to the Finance Committee. ■^16 REGULATIONS. PRESIDENT'S ADDRESS. Toronto, 16th September, 1885. Brother Undertakbks, — The wheel of time in its revolatlons has again brought us to our annual convention. I congratulate you upon the success of oar association ; it is no longer an experiment, but a living substantial reality. The preliminary meeting in the parlors of Mr. John Young, on 3rd July, lfe84, of some fifty-five gentlemen, who formed the nucleus of our organization, may have appeared like a small beginning, but when we recollect the zeal shown by those pre- sent and the harmony that prevailed, it is not to be wondered that at our adjourned meeting held in September, some two months later, our membership had more than doubled, and our success is now assured, while we are but one year old we stand second to none in membership on this continent, and the advancement of the work for which we have associated ourselves together. It is pleasant to meet with our brother undertakers whom we hear of, and these meetings will help each and every one to become personally acquainted with each other ; thus cementing us together more closely in bonds of friendship j these meet- ings should be looked upon as a matter of business, the information obtained more than repays for the time and expense of attending our annual gathering. We find similar organizations all over the continent of America, who have associated them- selves together for mutual benefit and improvement, and much good has been accom- plished already. The progressive undertaker is never idle, his brain is actively engaged at work endeavoring to improve himself on the subject of preparing the dead for burial, to succeed it is necessary for the live undertaker to keep in the front rank by endeavoring to better his condition as well as to elevate the standard of his profession ; and it should be the fixed aim of every undertaker to make his calling better than he found it ; to elevate it, to secure for it a full recognition as a permanent and regular profession. In the past the work has been done by the majority of those engaged in the basine-s in a too careless and unsatisfactory manner, which is to be regretted, and one of the great objects of our association is to educate those who are desirous of learning how to prepare the dead for burial, so that the features will retain a life- like appearance, by the best method, as well as to bring to a higher state of perfeo-> tion our profession ; to protect the interests of our brother undertakers as well as those of our patrons. When we look back to the crude, indifferent manner in which the work was performed when many of us entered the ranks, and now, as we enjoy the benefits of the fertile brain of those who have raised our calling to the high standard it now occupies, who would willingly return to the old plodding method of our predecessors? " We have yet much to learn," and if we desire to keep abreast of the times we must investigate and experiment it we expect to succeed, never resting satisfied until we have become proficient in our profession. We have done much already toward this end, still our work is incomplete, we must protest against illegitimate trade. It should be our desire to co operate with the manufacturers as far as we can, give them our assistance to sustain legitimate trade, and should demand from them such protection as will sustain our association in upholding our profession. Let us remember that while we may have different views on different subjects, our interests are the san^e, and that we should not under any circumstances allow differences of opinion or sectional feeling to interfere with our business. The work of forming local, county or district associations should be encouraged, as tbey will be the means of harmonising any feelings of business jealousy that might exist by bringing together those who though opponents in business should be on friendly terms. Let this suggestion have your earnest attention. We should make one of the grand objects of our association the raising of our profession to its true level, placing a standard below which no man will be recognised by us or the ^public, as an andertaker. Every effort should be pat forth to form these local asao- undertakers' combination. tit ciatioDS, as the future of this association lies in the accomplishment of this desired reEult. It is with much gratification that I am able to report to you we have succeeded in obtainirg an agreement for one year with the Dominion Burial Case Association. After considerable correspondence a meeting was arranged, and the manufacturers were all represented, and they met us in a friendly spirit, and an agreement was mutually entered into by the president, secretary and chairman of your executive committee, with the manufacturers, a copy of which was mailed by the secretary ta each member of the association. And I trust the day will never come when the feelings of fraternal good-will and friendship which now exist between this association and the manufacturers shall ever grow less warm than it is at the present time. Some correspondence has been had with the associations in Michigan and New York States, also with some of their manufacturers aekinsr their assistance to protect our association against illegitimate trade of parties who have been refused admission to oar association " with good results," and I deem it advisable that this association should now join the National Association for our own protection, as we can then demand, as a right, protection as members of said association, and not appear as sup- plicants asking for favors. During the past year, as your chief executive oflScer, I have received invitations to attend the meetings of the Illinois Undertakers' Association, Indiana Funeral Directors' Association, Kansas Funeral Directors' Association, Michigan Funeral Directors' Association, New England Undertakers' Association, New York State Undertakers' Association, also a banquet given by the BoflFalo Undertakers' Associa- tion at Genesse House on 15th January last. To the several invitations I sent a friendly letter of greeting from our association, and I attended the banquet in person of the Buffalo undertakers, responding to the toast of Ontario's Undertakers' Asso- ciation, and I trust the friendly intercourse thus begun between this^ association and the several Siate organizations will be continued by my successor in office, thus cementing the ties of friendship as well as the commercial relations existing between Ontario and the neighboring Eepnblic. During the past year quite a number of applicants for membership were received and referred to the executive committee for action. A large number have been refused, the executive thinking th«re was not an opening in many cases for new beginners without interfering with old established business houses, a full report of the committee's actions will be submitted for your consideration. The present law in regard to the dealing with applications for membership, as well as those against whom charges are preferred for oflfences at variance with our by-laws, is unsatisfactory, and requires to be amended by giving power to the executive to act more promptly, thus saving valuable time. While our by-laws met the wants during the first year of our organization, it will be necessary to make several amendments to meet cases coming before us for which no provision was made. Your executive committee, who have been assiduous in their duties during the past year, are deserving of our grateful thanks. They have prepared several amendments to our by-laws, which will be presented for your consideration. While a number of complaints have been made daring the past year, none of a very serious nature, the committee have endeavored to settle them without resorting to any harsh treatment, I deem it of the utmost importance to adopt a code of ethics, and would recommend the adoption of the code as laid down by the National Association. I have no doubt but the subject of raising our entrance fee will engage your attention with a view of deciding whether it would not be desirable to pass a by-law requiring all those who desire to join our association after a certain date should be charged an admission fee similar to what is charged by other undertakers' associa- tions. I regret to have to report to you the death of our late 2nd vice-president, Joseph Strong, of St. Thomas, who passed over to the silent majority, on 19th November, tl8 REGULATIONS. 1884, whilst actively engaged in the duties of his profession. At oar last meeting he was full of bright hopes of future happinef^s and usefulness among his fellow citizens by whom he was held in high esteem ; he had by his manly, straightforward actions and ever gentlemanly deportment endeared himself to all those with whom he had been brought into contact, while to all with whom he had been acquainted in the city of St. Thomas, he was bound closely and warmly by ties of friendship, " none knew him but to love him." To the family of our deceased brother we can only tender our true and sincere condolence in their distress. On learning of the death of brother Strong, I instructed the secretary to notify all our members within a rea- sonable distance, by card, the hour of the funeral, requesting them to attend; and I am pleased to state that quite a large number of our members went to assist in con- signing the mortal remains to the silent tomb ; and I would now suggest that a letter of condolence be prepared and sent by this association to the family of our departed brother. Let us now, during the session before us, devote ourselves closely to the consid- eration of those questions which the rapidly increasing importance of our association presents to our view; system, promptitude and harmony, are requisite to the accom- plishment of the work for which we have assembled. After due consideration we deemed it in the interests of our association to engage Prof. Renouard to lecture to our members and give us a practical demonstra- tion on a subject, and we trust our actions will meet with your approval. If the result of our labors to make this meeting attractive and beneficial to the members meets with your approval, your officers and committee will feel grateful. In conclusion I thank you for the unmerited kindness which you have shown me, as well as the compliment conferred by electing me as your first president, and above all I desire to thank you, one and all, for the uniform kindness, confidence and respect I have received from my associates, and the kind co operation of the members throughout Ontario. I feel my report would be incomplete if I failed to place on record my appreciation of the valuable services rendered me as well as this associa- tion by our worthy and esteemed secretary, C. D. Blaohford. Words would fail to convey to you the obligations we are under to our worthy brother, not only for tbe valuable aid and assistance he has rendered me, but for the prompt and kind manner in which he has answered all communications and enquiries made by our members, and tbe intelligence he has displayed in the execution of the important trust confided to him. And I trust the valuable services rendered this association will be duly appreciated by the members present. All of which is respectfully submitted. J. B. MoINTYRE, President On motion of Messrs, D. Hogg, Perth, and F. L. Harrison, Strathroy, it was resolved that the address of the president be received and referred to a special com- mittee to report thereon. It was referred to the same committee to which the secretary's report was referred. Mr. Patrick Blake, of Detroit, was welcomed and given a seat on the platform by the president, and in response to the applause which greeted him said he hoped thoy did not expect a reply to that introduction. He was simply Patrick Blake, of Detroit, and came to hear what he could hear, and see what he could see, and learn any new ideas with reierence to this profession. He had no idea of being rushed to the platform, and his modesty would tell him to keep still till the ordinary business was through. A letter was read f.om D. W. Thompson, secretary of the Dominion Burial Case Association, inviting the members of this association to a dinner to be given by the Dominion Burial Case Association on Thursday the 17th Saptember, in St. Andrew's Hall. On motion of Messrs. J. Nott, Port Perry, and F. A. Latshaw, Dandas, it was resolved that this kind request be accepted aud be complied with by members of this association. undertakers' combination. *119 A few of the hundreds of communications received by the secretary during tiiA year, were read by him, showing the work the committee had been doing, and tlMi good feeling there is between the manufacturers and the association. On motion of Messrs. John Nott, and J T. George, it was resolved that the time of our meeting bo as follows : —Adjourn at 12.30 o'clock, meet at 2 o'clock; adjourn at 6 o'clock ; meet at 7.30, aod remain in session until the work of the association shall be completed. The following accounts were read and referred to the Finance Committee : — A. Lawson & Co $ 6 00 C. D, Blaohford 33 67 J. B. Mclntyre 7 20 Executive committee 18 00 Prof. Eenouard 125 00 Hill & Weir. ^ 1 75 Temperance Hall 10 00 Short-hand reporter 5 00 Mr. J. Nott, of Port Perry, asKed if any steps had been taken by the ezecativo committee with regard to insurance, as many think there should be some means c£ protecting members of this associa'ion by insurance? President : No action has yet been taken in the matter. It was moved by W. H, Hoyle. seconded by A. F. Herrington, that the president and secretary of this association, be a committee to lay before the Attorney-General ef this Province, the great benefit the public would receive if members of this asso- ciation were permitted to register deaths and grant the officiating minister a certifi- cate of the same. No fee to be exacted from the public for the performance of this duty ; and in all cases the funeral director shall forward to the clerk of each, municipality a record of his proceedings. This resolution provoked considerable discussion as to the law on the point and the custom in some parts of the province. It was finally moved in amendment by T. Gibbard, Napanee, seconded by T. W. Lord, North Gower, that a special committee be appointed to look into the matter and report at the evening session. The amendment on being put was carried. The president named Messrs. J. T. George, Port Hope ; W". H. Hoyle, Canning- ton, and J. Chapman, Hamilton, as a special committee on the resolution. The convention then adjourned to meet at 2 o'clock. BEPORT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON THE AJDSBESSES OF THE PRESIDENT AND SECBSTABT. Toronto, 16th September, 1885. To the President^ Officers and Members of the Ontario Undertakers' Association : Your committee, to whom was referred the address of the presiden t, beg to report : First, it is a matter of congratulation to learn of the success of the association. We also concur iu the sentiment expressed in the address, that this association is doing a good work toward elevating as well as educating the undertakers in Ontario. We also approve of the suggestion of forming local and coonty associations, and would recommend that the next president make an effort to bring about this desired resnlt. We approve of the action of the president in bringing about an agreement with the manufacturers, and trust the friendly feeling now existing will continue; and would recommend that your officers and executive committee be empowered to re- new the same with the manufacturers on as favorable terms as possible, upon the expiration of the present agreement. ^20 RiaULATIONS. We heartily approve of the action of the president in his endeavors to bring aboat friendly relations between this association and similar associations in the neigh* boriner republic, by friendly correspondence. We would also recommend that this association join the Nation al Association^ as a matter of protection to ourselves. We would further recommend the adoption of the National Code of Ethics, as suggested by the president, a copy of which is herewith appended, and that the same be printed in the annual report. As to the matter of raising the entrance fee, your committee are of the opinion that it would bo in the interest of this association to raise the entrance fee after the first day of January, 1886, to the sum of twenty-five dollars. We would further recommend that a special committee be appointed to draft a letter of condolence to the family of our late second vice-president. Brother Joseph Strong. We also approve of the actions of the president in issuing cards of invitation to the funeral of late Brother Strong. We also approve of the action of the president in obtaining the services of Prof. JSenouard to lecture, and give a practical demonstration on embalming for the benefit of our members, believing it will be the means of increasing our usefulness and create & greater interest in the association. We heartily approve of all the president has said in regard to the efficiency of our secretary, C . JD. Blachford, he has proved himself as worthy of our confidence and esteem, and we hope the association will reward him well for his valuable services, and would recommend that an appropriation of one hundred dollars be made from the funds of this association to C. D. Blachford for services rendered. All of which is respectfully submitted. F. L. HAKEISON, Strathroy, V. P. HUMPHREY, Toronto. MAYNAED EOGERS, Ottawa. Toronto, 16th September, 1885. To the President, Oncers and Members of the Ontario Undertakers' Association ; We, your committee appointed to report on the report of the secretary, would suggest the advisability of the secretary forwarding, direct to each member of the executive committee, a copy of all complaints or applications; they replying direct to the secretary ; in order to lessen the time taken at present, in all such matters. We agree with the secretary's suggestion in joinirg the National Association, and in sending a delegate to the same. We also agree with the secretary and recommend a proper set of books be pur- chased by the association for the secretary's use, and further recommend that the secretary in the future receive a salary of one hundred dollars per annum. In regard to new membership fee, we recommend the sum of twenty-five dollars instead of fifty dollars, as suggested by the secretary. We recommend that a committee be struck off to prepare a price list, the same to bd presented at this meeting. All of which is respectfully submitted. F. L. HARRISON, Strathroy. V. P. HUMPHREY, Toronto. MAYNARD ROGERS, Ottawa. The report, after some little discussion, was adopted. On motion of Messrs. Y. P. Humphrey, Toronto, and F. A. Latshaw, Dundas^ it was resolved that the secretary procure a seal for the association. UNDIRTAKBRS' COMBINATION. V2t The following were appointed a committee to prepare a resolution of condolence, to be forwarded to the family of oor late second vice-president, Joseph Strong : — viz., W. P. Prower, Bowmanville ; E. Eeid, Kingston ; and D. Clifford, Brantford. The following were appointed a Committee on Price Lists: — M. Rogers, Ottawa; G. G. Smith, Barrie; J. C. Campbell, Beaverton ; V. P. Humphrey, Toronto; and W. R. Pray, Hamilton. The finance committee reported as follows :— Your Committee beg leave to report that we have examined the books of the treasurer and secretary, and find them correct, with a balance in the hands of the treasurer of $543.40, and recommend that the following named accounts be paid: — Hill& Weir S 1 75 J. B. Mclntyre 7 20 A. fienouard 125 00 A. Lawson & Co 6 00 J. A. Shannon, short-hand reports 5 00 Executive committee, postage 18 00 C. D. Blachford, stationery and postage 33 67 Proprietors of Temperance Hall 10 00 Total « tHjS 62 All of which is respectfully submitted. S. B. W. CARPENTER, Chairman. F. A. LATSHAW, J. WOLFE, H. NEILSON". On motion of Messrs. W. J. Nichols, Walkerton, and D. Travers, Brio, it wasi- resolved that the report be received and adopted, and an order be drawn on the treasurer for the amounts named therein. It was moved bv John Ferguson, London, seconded by C. D. Blachford, Hamil- ton, that Prof. A. Renouard, of Kansas City be, and is hereby admitted as ao honorary member of this association. — Carried. Prof. Renouard replied to the resolution by thanking them for this unexpected honor, and stating that when he returned to his home, in the far west, he should' take a pride in telling his friends of the kind manner in which he had been treated in Canada. On motion of Messrs. T. Gibbard, Napanee, and J, Kilgour, London, it wa» resolved that the sum of six dollars be paid to each of the executive committee, for their personal expenses during their meetings in the city, in order to prepare the business for this convention. It was resolved that the executive committee be authorized to have the minute» with the by-laws printed, to the number of 700. On motion of Messrs. John Young, Toronto, and R. Askin, Markdale, it was resolved, That The Casket, of Rochester, be, and is hereby recognized as the official organ of this aesociation. On motion of Messrs. C. D. Blachford and John Young, it was resolved that the thanks of this association be, and are hereby tendered to J. A. Schofield, of Dann- Tille, for his services as assistant secretary at this session. Mr. W. H. Hoyle read the report of the special committee appointed at the morning session to enquire into the law regarding the registration of deaths : — We, your Special Committee, to whom was referred the resolution of W. H. Hoyle, re registration of deaths, beg leave to report as follows: — viz.. That on appli- cation to the city clerk for a copy of the Revised Statutes of Ontario, we find that section 12, page 378, and section 24, page 380 (copies of which are hereto attached)^ clearly leaves out the spirit of the resolution; and we hereby recommend it* adoption. J. T. GEORGE, ] ^ W* H. HOYLE, I ^^»"««««- 3-46 ^2t aSGULATIONS. Copy of section 12, page 378, ReviBed Statutes of Ontario : The occupier of the house or tenement in which a death takes place; or if the occupier be the person who has died, then some one of the persons residing in the house in which the death took place, or if such death has not taken place within a house, then any person present at the death, or having any knowledge of the circum- stances attending the same, or the coroner who attends any inquest held on such person, shall, before the interment of the body, supply to the division registrar of the division in which such death takes place according to his or her knowledge or belief, all particulars required to be registered touching such death, by the form pro- vided by this Act. Certified a true copy of section 12 of the Act respecting the Registration of ' * THOS. SINDBRSON, City Olerk's Office, Toronto. PENALTY. Copy of section 24, page 380, Revised Statutes of Ontario : If any householder, head of the family, clergyman, physician, or other person or persons required by this Act to report births, marriages and deaths, refuses or wilfully neglects to do so within the time named, such persons shall for each and every offence, forfeit and pay a sum not less than one dollar, nor more than twenty dollars and costs in the discretion of the presiding justice, before whom the case is heard ; and it shall be the duty of the division registrar to prosecute all such persons 60 neglecti ng or refusing to make the required reports; but, if the return required by this Act, to be made by more than one person, is made by any one of such persons, the other of such persons shall not be liable to any penalty in respect of the default. Certified a true copy of section 24 of the Act respecting the Registratian of DeathR. THOS. SANDERSON, City Clerk's Office, Toronto. DEATHS. The person required to register a death is the occupier of the house in which the death takes place, and the return mast be made before the interment of the body. Any medical man who was last in attendance during the last illness of any deceased person is required to register the cause of death. Refusal or neglect to make these reports, or any one of them, within the specified time will subject the person or persons so neglecting or refusing to a penalty of Twenty dollars and costs. The officers administering the Act in the different divisions have been instructed to strictly enforce its requirements, and to prosecute all persons who fail to comply with its provisions. Blank forms for the registration of births, marriages and deaths, can be ob- tained from any postmaster in the province, and when filled up can be sent to the division registrar free of postage, by leaving the envelope unsealed and marked on the outside "registration return." A. S. HARDY, Registrar- General. H. S. CREWE, Inspector. RKaiBTaAR-GENKRAL's Offiok, Toronxo, Ist January, 1883. The report was adopted. Messrs. M. Morse, Niagara Falls, and D. Travers, Brin, moved the following resolution : — Resolved, That the members of this association will not deal with any manufac- turing establishment or jobber of undertakers' supplies, who sell goods to private eitizens or persons not members of this association acting in an unprofessional way^ UNDKRTAKKRS' COMBINATION. 723 provided they do not desist after being notified by the secretary to do so, and that this clause be inserted in the by-laws. On motion of Messrs. T. Gibbard, Napanee, and J. Lambert, Aylmer, it was resolved to refer this resolution to the executive committee to report thereon. Mr. Prower read the report of the special committee appointed to prepare a -letter of condolence to be sent to the family of the late Joseph Strong, as follows : — Toronto, 16th September, 1835. The ways of the Almighty are past finding out, but they are directed in wisdom. He has seen fit to call our beloved Brother Joseph Strong home to himself, to sum- mon him away in the midst of an active career of usefulness. In the death of our respective brother, our association has lost one of its brightest members ; and all those with whom he associated a true and sincere friend. He ardently looked for- ward to this meeting, and to the unison of old friends, but suddenly stricken with illness, in the full prime and vigor of manhood, he was summoned to the great unknown and mysterious future : but with the most perfect faith in a blessed im- mortality. He was beloved by everyone who knew him, and his death was a serious loss to his many friends in the city of St. Thomas, where he enjoyed the confidence of his fellow citizens. His genial character, his correct deportment as a citizen and an undertaker, will ever reserve fbr him a place in our memory. Resolved, That the secretary furnislt to the family of our departed Bro. Joseph Strong, copies of these proceedings, and assure them we sympathize and condole with them in their sorrow. W. P. PRO WEB, D. CLIFFORD, ROBERT REID. The report was adopted and the resolution ordered to be engrossed and sent to the widow of the deceased. Mr. Patrick Blake, of Detroit, on being called upon to make a few remarks on the late* Bro. Strong, said he had had the pleasure of knowing him well, had worked with him for some years, and all that had been said here to-day about him can scarcely convey an idea of the character of the man. He was genial and kind, faith- ful, honorable and upright, and he (Mr. B.) was glad that they had honored his recollection by this resolution. The second vice-president's chair was appropriately draped in mourninsr, and a beautiful floral tribute, bearing the words, "In Memoriam," placed therein, and occupied a position to the left of that of the president. On motion of Messrs. John Ferguson, London, and John Walker, Port Hope, it was resolved, that Mr. P. Blake, of Detroit, and Mr. W. W. Hal pin, president of the Montreal association, be tendered an honorary membership in this association. The Convention, on motion, adjourned at 6 o'clock, to meet at 7.30. BVKNINa SESSION. The convention resumed business shortly after 7.30, p.m. Toronto, 16th September, 1885. Mr. Rogers, Ottawa, read the report of the committee on price lists. To the President, Officers, and Members of the Ontario Undertakers' Association : Clause 1. — We, the committee appointed by you to draft out a scale of prices, t)eg to recommend that the manufacturers be requested to withdraw either their !No. 1 or 1^ coffins, as one of them is all that is necessary for our trade, and the two only tend towards a complication of prices. — Passed. Clause 2. — We also beg to enter an earnest protest against any member of the association throwing in aoy shell, use of hearse, crapes, or any other article of iegiti- mate trade. — Passed, 3-46^ ^24 REQULATIONS. Clause 3. — We would also suggest that the following sums bo the lowest for u^ of hearses: — For adult hearse, lowest price, $6.00 ; for child's hearse, lowest pric, 14.00 There was considerable difference of opinion as to the subject matter of tbf clause, many representatives from country districts claiming that the price was tc| high for their places and more suitable for town and cities. Messrs. Ford, Blenheim, and Lord, North Gower, moved to amend the clause I striking out the words " six " and "tour," and substituting the word " five." Messrs. Herrington, St. Mary's, and Niohol, Walkerton, moved an amendmei to the amendment, that the prices in villages not incorporated be $3.00 for childrei and $4.00 for adults ; in incorporated villages and towns, $5.00 and $6.00 ; and i cities, $7.00 and $10.00. The amendment to the amendment, on being put, was lost. The amendment on being put was lost. The clause then passed as it stood. A motion was made to reconsider the question, but was lost. Clause 4. — That the price of all manufactured adults' shells be not less ths $3.00.— Passed . Clause 5. — We consider that prices of articles not mentioned in our report ha better be regulated by tbe local organizations, as there is such a difference in freigl and other charges. — Passed. • Other clauses referring to the prices of co£Sns and caskets wore read and di cussed. So much diversity of opinion was found to exist between country and cit representatives, that, after a lengthy discussion, it was [moved by Messrs. Youn^ Toronto, and Carpenter, Tilsonburg, that the matter of arranging the prices be la in the hands of the executive committee for twelve months. It was moved in amendment by Messrs. Gibbard and Stone, that the prices i submitted by the committee be left in the hands of the executive committee t report thereon . Mr. Young withdrew his motion and the amendment was carried. , Kespectfully submitted. D CLIFFORD, V^. P. HUMPHREY, JOEL SMITH. WM. R. PRAY, MAYNARD ROGERS, Sec'y of Con REPORT OF KXBCUTIVK C03IMITTBK. London, 15th September, 1885. Jiir, President and Gentlemen : Your executive committee respectfully submit the following as our report fo: the year ending on the above date : — The deep interest we have taken in our association since its organization, hat eomewhat lightened the labors of this committee, and if our endeavors to give jus' and impartial decisions on all cases that have come before us will meet with tht approval of the assembly, we will feel amply repaid for the work done. We found that our by-laws, as they now stand, are not complete enough t< enable an executive committee to give clear and prompt decisions in all cases tha arise. Whenever a complaint or other matter came before the committee which wat not covered by the constitution or by-laws, we have used what we thought to be com' men sense, and decided accordingly. The work of the committee has been considerable, and occasioned a great dea of correspondence, but, as we were willing to do anything for the best interests oi the profession and association, the work has been cheerfully done. undertakers' combination. 725 We think some of our members expect top much from an association of this kind, not taking into consideration that it is notyot fifteen months old, and look upon it as an immediate remedy to, and able to rectify the many troublesome and annoy- ing positions which they have been placed in in past years. To them we would say it will take time to place the association in a position that will enable it to govern the many wrongs the members are subject to at present. We must creep before we can walk, and in order to walk well, our limbs must not be distorted by creeping too fast. Our by-laws must be amended from tiae to time, so as to be made applicable to the many different cases arising. As these subjects come before the officers, they will make notes of them, and have the by-laws amended at the following meeting to suit them. Our members must be instructed more fully as to the objects and pur- poses, and working of the organization ; and, as we iDok back over the few short months it has been in existence, and see the popular endorsement it has met with from the profession, and the developments it has made, we think that if the mem- bers will but have patience and lend each their irdividaal helps, we will see the association in a pos tion to right all wrongs and prevent their re occurrence. Your committee thought a free school of embalming following the session of the association this year, would not only prove instructive, but would supply an oppor- tunity for our members to gain an insight into the art, which, we feel confident will, within a few years, be a necessary attainment for every undertaker to have. And he that wishes to keep abreast of his brother professionals in this progressive age, must sooner or later, make an attempt to gain a knowledge of that which is at pre- sent a very important matter occupying the minds of the profession throughout the country. Believing that at this time, when we are met together for our mutual good, would be a proper one for our members to learn something of embalming, the execu- tive committee engaged the services of Professor A. Eenouard, of Kansas City, form- erly of the Rochester School of Embalming, whose reputation as a practical embalmer and lecturer, is not excelled by any, to ^ive free instructions to the members, and for that purpose secured the Lecture Amphitheatre of the Toronto School of Medicine. A subject has been procured, and we hope every member will avail himself of the opportunity to obtain an acquaintance with this branch of the profession, which, if he desire to keep time with the age, he will require to have to be successful. Then followed a summary of the complaints and applications received during the year, and the decisions given in each case, all of which, with one or two excep- tions, were sustained. The following resolution, which was referred to this committee, has been con- sidered, and we recommend its adoption, with the following words added : " provided he does not desist after being notified by the secretary to do so." Resolution — Moved by M. Morse, Niagara Falls, seconded by D. Smith Travis, Brin, that the members of this association will not deal with any manufacturing es- tablishment or jobber of undertakers' supplies, who sells goods to private citizens or persons not members of the association acting in an unprolessional way, and that this olause be inserted in the by-laws. The report on a whole was, on motion of Messrs. Young and Gibbard, adoptedi f JOHN FEEGUSON, Chairman. 1 KOBERT ASKIN, Committee \ A. F. HERRINGTON, I D. HOGG, I, W. P. PROWER. On motion of Messrs. J, Young, Toronto, and Ford, Blenheim, it was resolved that the members of this association shall not purchase undertakers' furnishings from manufacturers or jobbers, or from those who do not belong to the Burial Case Manufacturing Associations, and that the secretary request the manufacturers' associa- tioD to keep us informed of any such cases cojiing under their notice. Notice of motion having been given at the last meeting, Mr. H. Hoyle, Canning- ton, now moved, seconded by Mr. Y. P. Humphrey, Toronto, that on the death of a 926 BEQULATIONS. member of this association, the secretary being informed of the fact, shall give no- tice of the same to the members of s&id associaiion, accompanied with an invitation for each member to attend the funeral if possible. — Carried. On motion of Messrs. W. J, Verney, Tottenham, and A. Dodd, Bolton, it was resolved that our fiscal year end with the annual meeting in September. The following officers were then elected for the ensuing year: President : .T. B. Mclntyre, St. Catharines. Ist Vice-President: George Hess, M.P. P., Listowell. 2nd " W. H. Hoyle, Cannington. 3rd " W. H.Stone, jr., Toronto. 4th " H. Ncilson, Chatham. 6th " S. Rogers, sr., Ottawa. Secretary: C. D. Blachford, Hamilton. Treasurer : J, Young, Toronto. On motion of Messrs. V. P. Humphrey, and J. Young, Toronto, the president was appointed a delegate to the National Convention at Philadelphia, his necessary ex- penses to be paid out of the funds of the association. A vote of thanks was passed to the executive committee for the able manner in which they carried out their duties. On motion of Messrs. John Nott, Port Perry, and Joel Smith, Glanford, a stand- ing vote of thanks was tendered to J. B. Mclntyre, president of the Undertakers' Association of Ontario, not only for the able and efficient manner in which he has discharged his duties w^hile in session, bat at; all times for his courtesy to the mem- bers both in answering correspondents and giving valuable advice on everything pretaining to the interest and well-being of our association. On motion of Messrs. Hoyle and Eogers, it was resolved that the association stand adjourned to meet in the city of Toronto, on the second Wednesday of the Industrial Fair, in 1886. The convention then ad.joQrned. LIST OF MEMBERS. HONORARY MEMBERS. A. Renouard, Kansas City, P. Blake, Detroit. Mich. W. W. Halpin, President Montreal Un- dertakers' Association, Montreal. M. Hughes, Winnipeg. G. Lepine, Quebec. MIMBERS. Askin, R., Markdale Aliin, £>., Newca«tlo Anderson, A. J, Wingham Anderson & Nugent, Lindsay Addison, W., & Son, Norwich Atkingon. Jos., Florence Bartlett, fl. C, Lin wood Boon, T., Bothville Burling, A., Aurora Blachford & Son, Hamilton Barber, J. L. & Co., Watford Barry, Geo., Goderich Brady, P. P;, Ottawa. B«rr. W G.Drumbo Brock, R. W., Belfountain Bull, H., & Son, Thornbnry Butler, A. W., Thorold Beal, John H., Pickering Bartlett, R. W., Smith's Falls Barbour, J., Gait Byrne, B., Barrie Bell, R., Brockville, Burkholder, S. & J., Stouffvill© Beirel, C, Markham Helleghem, R., Peterboro' Burton, Mrs. F., Dundas Bolton, A. F., Mount Brydges Buist, R., Chestervillo Bolton & Son, Bolton Bcuglet, H., Tilbury Centre UNDEBTAKBBS' COMBINATION. 'r2r Blanford & Son, Vienna Baker, J., Waterdown Boyd, J., jr., Mitchell Brook ^ B, H., Mount Albert Best & Palmer, Paris Barnelt, H., Brampton Bennett, A. A., Clinton Borrett, J., Vankleek Hill Cbapio, O. A., & Sons, Col born© Cliflford, D., Brantford Cunningham Bros., Trenton Chapman, J. M., Sons, Hamilton Cronmiller, G., Welland Cook, H., Watford Crane, W., Chatsworth Cornell, A. B., Goderich Coltart & Neilson. Chatham Carpenter, S. B. W., Tilsonburg Comstock, A., Peterboro' Clegg, A . , Peterboro' Corbeau Bros , Penetanguishene Climie & Hay, Listowell Cauthers, W., Creemore Clint, E., Biockville Coegrove, T. G., Kemptville Campbell, J. C, Beaverton Church, J., Delhi Cullen, J. & Co., Comber Cameron, A. M., Wallacetown Caulfie d, H. & Co., Aylmer Coates, J., Simcoe Camp, D. M., & Son, Smithville Campbell & Abraham, Stratford Craickshank, J., Weston Cole, I., & Son, Mallorytown Davis, J. M., Port Perry Dillane, A., Polmerston Dodds, A., Bolton Donaldson, J., Almonte Darroch, J., Stayner Dwyer, J . , Hamilton Deihl, Geo., Clinton Drennen, W. M., Kingston Drake & Joyce, Windsor Dalton, J., Deseronto Davidson, A., Lucknow Endrees, P., New Hamburgh Ellsworth, E. J., Port Colborne Eddy, J. L., Harriston Edwards, W., Gananoque Edwards, W. A , Fordwich Egan, J. F., Keenansvilie Eitle, J. T., Wellandport Ennis, J., North Augusta Eley, K. J., Campbellford Ferguson, J., London Frobt, J. G., Believiilo Pinck, W. A., Leamington Ford & Bentley, Blenheim Fisher, C, Salem Fessant, W. , Tees water Forbes, G., Shakespeare Frost, 0..& Son, Tweed Folliott, T., King Farmer & Wickett, York Foster f^ros., Burford Guggisberg Bros. & Co., Preston Gordon, D., Goderich George, J. T., Port Hope Gidley, C.&S., Exeter Grobs Bros., St. Catharines Gillott, J., Millbrook Gibbard &Son, Napanee Gecge, D., Alvinston Gracey, S., Wingham Gilbert & Lighthall, Picton Gibson, Wm., Mount Forest Glennie & Mcijean, Lancaster Goodwin & Jennings, St. Thomas Grant, D., jr.. Singhampton Gawley, J., Bin brook Griffin, J. W., International Bridge Gillott, T., Millbrook Hogg, D., Perth Herrington, A. F., St. Mary's Hoyle, W. H., Cannington Hault. W., Brooklin Humphrey, V. P., Toronto Hay & Co., Woodstock ^oltorf, H., Lindsay Howard Bros., Glencoe Harvey & Crawford, BramptoB Howard, W., Alvioston Harris, J. W., Dresden Hobart, S., Cobonrg Hess Bros , Listowell Horn, A. H., Pembroke Hoffman, L., Port Dover Haskett, C, Lucan Harrison, F. L., Strathroy Hicks, J. A., Essex Centre Harris, G. H., Caledonia Hinton, W., London Helstrop, R., Meaford Hulse, J. H., Orangeville Hepburn, W., Stratford Huffman, Wagenest & Co., Waterloo Howes, R. K., Wardsville Howard & Sons, Hastings Ingram, W. H., Toronto Irwin Bros., Shel bourn Johnson, B. J., Whitley Jahnke, Mrs. A., Chatham Jupp & Bobinson, Garafraxa 928 BEGULiVTIONS. Jewell. C. H., Dundalk Johnson, A. M., Wendigo Jansen, A.J, Stevensville Johnson, W. A., Seeley's Bay Jones, B., & Son, Milton Jarvis, W. H., Smith's Falls Jadson, E. J., & Son, Farmersville Kilkenney, T., & Son, Bradford Kilgoar, Jas., London Kinsey, H. E., Beeton Kinsey, A., Alliston Kay, T. W., & Co., Toronto J&idd, Jos., & Son, Dublin Katerson, R., Hampton Eilgoar, W., Morrisburg JKling & Co., Orange ville Kemp, D. M , Araherstburg Knight, C. W.. & Co., Tarn worth Kaechtel D., Hanover Kivell, S. N ., Sunderland Latshaw, F. A., Dandas Xuke Bros. & Co., Oshawa Ijong, Mrs. W., Brussels Locke, J. C, Ridgetown liambert, J. C, Aylmer Little, T., Gait Xesley, G, E., Carleton Place Liawrence, A., Biythe Xondon Farnitare Manofactaring Petrolia Leighton, J . , Barrie Leibner, A., Morpeth Lord, F. W., North Gower JLove, "W., Rodney liund, R., Feston Millard, J. H., Newmarket Morse, M., Niagara Falls, South Morris. L., Bowmanville Morgan, G., Port Col borne Murdy, J., Lucan Martin, W., Stirling Misner & Kendall, Siracoe Morrison & Kinney, Trenton Minnaker, W. H., Norwood Marter, H. H., Gravenharst Mitchell, T. B , Orillia Moore, G., Ancaster May bee, M., Madoo Morrow & Hensby, PresooU Marsh, W. J., Iroquois Marsh, G. A., Spencerville Moyer, T. W., Campden Mowbray & Stanley, Ripley Miller & Sons, Ayton Morrow, J. R.^ Midland Murat, A., Mild may Mills, J., West Winchester. Co., Muir, J., Port Elgin Moodie, R,, Ottawa Mundle, J. & Co , Elora Miller, E., Kincardine VfcCabo, M . , Toronto Mcln*yre & Son, St. Catharines Mclntyre, J., Ingrereoll McKenzie, W., Gananbque McFadden, M., Poterboro' McDonald, A., Cornwall McEwan, T., Brockville McCallum, J., West liorne McKeown, W., Fenelon Palls McLaren, D., White Lake Nott, J., Port Perry Nagel, L., Ridgeway Nolan, M., Toronto Nickle, W. J., Walkerton Nagel, J., Cayuga Noyle, C. F., Moortown Offer, T., Midland. Pattison, J. W., Brantford Pray, R & Son, Hamilton Prower, W. P., Bowmanville Pierce, W., Brantford Phippen, N , Parkhill Pur sell & Son, Water ford Philp, J., Manilla Park & Borrowman, Amherstburg Phillips, G. L , Sarnia Purdy, H. C, Brighton Phelan, J. & Son, Arthur Quider, B., Hagersville Quigley, J., Pakenham Ronan, T., Kingston Robertson, M., Seaforth Roadhouse, S & J., Newmarket Rosar, P., Toronto Reynolds, C, Bethany Richmond, W., Petrolic Reid, R., Kingston Rogers, S , & Son, Ottawa. Rolston, T. H., Chesley Robinson, J. B., Clifford Rockel, A., Waterloo Robinson, J. A., Newbury Reid, D., St. George RolHton Bros., Metcalfe Stephens, G. J., Cobourg Smith, G. G.. Barrio Strong, Mrs., St. Thomas Stone, fl., & Sons. Toronto Stoddart, W, G., Woodville Stafford, B. V., Arn prior Sauter, E. A., Welland Soott, S. T., Wyoming Shedden, D., Woodstock undertakers' combination. 729 Steel, A. F., & Bro., Forest Scott, T., Thornton Stubbs & Dales, Drayton Schultz, W. J., & Son, Dutton Scholfield, J. A., Dannville Speight, J., & Son, Acton Stephenson, J. T.. London Sutherland, H., Em bro Saunders, C, Sarnia Smith, J . , Gianford Stephenson, T., Ailsa Craig Sails, J., Little Britain Sproul, A., Dungannon Sauer & Beard Bros., Plattsville Stone, W. H., Toronto Simpson & Co., Berlin Stoneman, J., Mitchell Snyder, J., Selkirk Smith, G. O., Jerseyville Smith, Wm., Otterville Sohoenheide, E., Teeterville S warts, J., Princeton Smith, B. F., Tamworth Turner & Porter, Toronto Tovel, N., Gaelph Travis, D. S.,Brin Trott, H. T., Collingwood Thomson, J., Fergus Thomson, J., Chesley Trotter, A.. Bobcaygeon Thompson & Co., Belleville Treadgold. M.. Brampton Taugher, J., Beachburg Uxbridge Cabinet and Organ Co., Ux- bridge Verney, W. J., & Co., Tottenham Vivian, C, Woodbridge Walker, J., Port Hope Wolfe, J., Aru prior Williamson, B., Burlington Waddell, J..Orono Wright, A.,'& Bro., Richmond Hill Wilson, J. G., Georgetown Watson & Malcolm, Kincardine Wilson Bros., Owen Sound. White, W., Bracebridge Windsor, H., Brigden Watt Bros., Meaford Wettlaufer, L. & Co., Auburn Warning, J. G., Duncanville Wigg, W., & Sod, Oshawa •Windsor, J., & Son, Frankford. Watters, J., Harrow * Walker, G. E., Norwich Walton, J. A., Elmvale Young, J., Toronto. Yoder, J. H., Springfield Ziller, G., Oakville. ASSISTANTS. Bolton, C. B., Assistant to M* McCabe, Toronto Leatherdale, R. ** Mrs. W. Lorg, Brussels Millard, A. " J. Young, Toronto Wilkes, C.R. " " •* Walker, T, « J. Walker, Port Hope APPENDIX. LETTER FROM SAMUEL ROGERS, OTTAWA* Ottawa, 12th September, 1885. To John Mclntyre, President of the Undertakers' Association : Dear Sir, — I regret very much I cannot comply with your request to write an essay on undertaking, &c,, as I have just returned from the eeat-ide, where I have beea spending a few weeks. I have scarcely had time to collect my thoughts for any business mt^tters as yet. I should have been pleased to h^ve met the members of our association at the present reunion, but thought it was only fair that my son should attend the conven- tion this year. And 1 am anxious that he should have every opportunity to gaiu information, he is thoroughly in earnest, and is studying everything in connection with the profession ; he has been very successful in the art of embalming during tho past year. 1 leave that part of the business entirely to him. I was very skeptical of its merits until I attended the convention last year, but am now fally convincecL 730 REGULATIONS. of its usefulneBs, and we practice it in almost every caee and find it reliable, and far superior to the cumbroas freezer. The only disappointment 1 experienced last year was the limited time we had for conversation; Ithoaght, and Rtill think we might have spent a few hours together very comfortably, for instance, suppose the oldest and most experienced among us, had told us something of their mode of treating the different cases they had attended to, it would have enlightened and benefited the younger members of our profession ; and there are other subjects that might be discussed with profit to us all. I think we should endeavor to instruct our eons and all the young men, so as to fit them to takeonr places, and impress upon them the necessity for studying the business in all its branches, and in that way elevate the profession, for there are some people who think anyone can be an undertaker, and look down on the profession, but 1 am happy to say that feeling is rapidly passing away. The remedy is in our own hands and that of our successors, viz., to act as gentlemen, and carry ourselves as men feeling that •we are following a noble profession. If there are any amongst us who feel other- wise, let him or those retire at once, for their day of usefulness is gone. For a man ■who has not that confidence in himself is not fit tor the profession. An undertaker ehould feel that he is responsible for everything and everybody, and be prompt, bat never in a hurry, and all his arrangements complete before going to the house, and then command all to follow him, for, unless he can do that, he can never conduct a funeral in a proper and orderly manner. I hear it is intended to increase the annual subscription. I think it is a step in the right direction, for it will tend to keefp up the standard of the profession. 1 do not send this as an address, but merely as an acknowledgment of the kind letter sent to me through our secretary. I beg to thank you for your confidence, and assure you I should be very glad to do anything in my power to promote the interest of our association. Hoping you may have a very happy and successful meeting, I am, my dear Mr, President, Yours very truly, SAMUEL EOGBRS. ADDRESS OF P. BLAKE, DETROIT. I want to say that I have attended your meeting here with a great denl of pleasure, and I will take the opportunity of saying a few words in regard to the association and what I have learnt and may learn by attending it to its conclusion. I have seen the business conducted in a manter gratifying to a stranger. The busi- ness done is worthy of the highest body of men in the Itominion, that is, no parlia- mentary usages could be done in a more satisfactory manner than I have seen them done to-day. These associations are productive of a great deal of good. Every individual has ideas in his mind which he likes to give expression to, and when we have an opportunity, like the present, of interchanging our views, each one gets the benefit of the ideas and snggestions of the others. Our profession needs this very much. A few years ago it was not regarded as an exalting profession. lean remem- ber, as a boy, how, when my father died and the undertaker came to the house, I ran «way from him and the plain black coffin that was repulsive to everybody. We kave since then been edncating the people up to something better, until the undertak- ing business will come to be a profosfion of conpiderablo note. It is necessary that people in the profession should take care who t-hould start out in the business. And there is a possibility by your uniting as you have here to-day, and when the majority gets the upperhaiid, of your being able to control this important matter. A man should cot be allowed lo commence the basiness on a small capital of one or two fanodred dollars. Be is not capable of doing it. He should be equipped with the articles necessary to carry it on. And if you take a stand as professional undertakers, j'oa will command the respect of the community. To such the business can bo made UNI>ERTAKBBS' COMBINATION. 731 profitable and agreeable. It has been said " that any person who went into the undertaking business to make money, made a mistake, but if he went into it as a pro- feesion and got into good standing he did rot make a mistake." An undertaker should be a man with a pleasing address and a gentleman. Above all branches of business, that quality is necessary in an undertaker. You say that you cannot reach those men who are guilty of unprofessional cond»ct, and who do not belong to your association. Now, we do, and the manufacturers will not deal with such men, so that they are soon shut out entirely. You can reach them, and if your association cannot, Ihen it is not good for anything. It has been said that an undertaker should lend his hearse or a part of his outfit to a neighbor, l^ow, here we have to draw a line, and if it is severe we cannot help it. We want a return and a profit upon our investment. Your opponent may have nothing to lose, not even a character invested. He has a few friends, perhaps, but that is about all. You must sift the bad wheat from the good, and refuse any assistance to such a man. Kow, in justice to myself, and as a protection to the pro- fession, I would not loan or rent my hearse to any such person that was not provided wiih the necessaries to carry on the undertaking business properly. There must h& a line drawn. If a man has a hearse and the equipments to do business and he wanta to borrow my hearse 1 will lend it to him in a moment. That is all well enough, and there is no danger of him cutting the price or interfering with the business. Mr. Blake touched on the point of co-operating with the manufacturers, that ■what was their interests was equally so the manufacturers' interest ; and in conclud- ing his address he said he would carry home the remembrance of all that had beea done, from all of which he had been greatly benefited. REPORT OF DELSQATE TO NATIONAL CONVENTION. Dear Brethren, — As your delegate to the National Association, I thought it might interest you to give a concise account of my mission as an appendix to our mi nates. The fourth annual meeting of the Funeral Directors' Association of America, was held in the city of Philadelphia, Pa , on Wednesday and Thursday, 7th and 8th October, and was attended by delegates from some sixteen states, as well as from the Province of Ontario. Pennsylvania having the largest membership, Ontario second, then followed by New Englacd States, New York, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Iowa, Kentucky, Kansas, Califoraia, Maryland, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Alabama. The two days were spoi t very pleasantly and profitably by addresses from promi- nent members of the profession, reports of committees, and discudsions on interesting Bubjects. Prof. J. B. Deaver, demonstrator of anatomy in the Pennsylvania Univer- sity, gate a very interesting lecture on arterial and venal embalming ; and your representative was honored by being placed on committee of manufacturers, as well as being elected one of the vice-presidents of the National Association. A committee from the National Burial Case Association was present, and their presi- dent, Mr. Hamilton, of Pittsburg, addressed the meeting and assured us the National Burial Case Association, which is composed of nearly all the leading manufacturers in the United States, would work in harmony with us ; and I feel satisfied now we can obtain from and through the National Association, as well as by the co-operation of the several state organizations, any protection we may demand to prevent under- takers from onr province obtaining goods from the manufacturers in the United States who are not entitled to same, by violation of our by-laws ; and I am also sat- isfied this association has within itself the power to harmonize all difficulties likely to arise between its members, as well as to control all those doing business as under- takers in this province who are not members, also any parties who may desire to enter into the business hereafter. All we can expect and ask is your assistance to atrengtheo our hands in our honesty and sincerity of purpose, believing much good ^32 REOULATIOHS. will result from oar labors, in making us batter able to perform the solemn duties of our profession in a satisfactory manner to ourselves and the public. Fraternally yours, J. B. McINTYRB. THE BANQCJBT. On the evening Thursday, Itth September, the members of the association t > the number of about two hundred, met in St. Andrew's Hall, in answer to the kind invitation of the Dominion Burial Case Association. The day had been devoted to the interesting and pleasant exercise of listening to the clear and lucid lecture on embalming, by our honorary member, Augnste Eenouard, of Kansas City. The evening found all the members congregated in the spacious hall. Immense tables stretched on either side fairly groaned under the delicacies with which they were loaded, and the menu was soon discussed with evident relish by all present. This splendid feast which united together in convivial fellowship the undertakers of Ontario being due to the liberality of the Dominion Barial Case Association, served not a little to cement the friendship existing between consumers and manufacturers. After the keen appetite of the guests had been somewhat blunted by the boun- teous repast so temptingly placed within their reach, toasts became the order of the evening. The one so dear to all loyal Oaaadians, "To our Gracious Sovereign the ^aeen," being the first proposed and received with enthusiasm. The health of the Dominion Burial Case Association was next proposed and most appropriately answered by Messrs. Cole, of K. Philp & Co , Pierce, of the On- tario Casket Co., D. W. Thompson, of D. W. Thompson &Co., andBvell,of Semmens Bros. Mr. P. Blake, of Detroit, was next called upon, and answered with a speech, acknowledging the compliment tendered through him to the American undertakers. His remarks were warmly applauded, and were succeeded by toasts to the officers of the association, which were suitably replied to by those gentlemen ; after which the Montreal delegates were called upon, and Mr. W. W. Halpin, president of the asso- ciation, assisted by Messrs. Ward, Tees and Terr iault, returned the friendly greet- ings of their Ontario brethren with more than usual vehemence. The '* Casket," our organ, was answered by Mr. Hawkey, of Semmons Bros., the accredited repre- sentative of the paper in Canada, with words of praise by the speaker for the present editors of the paper, and expressions of sorrow for the untimely demise of the foun- der, the lamented A, H. Nirdlinger. Mr. A. Renouard, of the undertaking firm of F. W. Hallet &Co., of Kansas City, was the next speaker, and returned his thanks, in his usual well selected vernacular. His remarks were covered by a storm of ap- plause, which had not yet subsided when the speaker resumed bis seat. Other toasts then followed, being interspersed with eongs and recitations; and any one looking on would not think that those present followed a profession that is one of the gravest. The remarks made at the gathering tended to show the good feeling at present existing between the manafacturers and the association. Each stating that it would be their aim, to not only further this understanding, but by looking after each other's interests to still farther promote that mabaal understanding which has proved so agreeable to all concerned. UNDSBTAKKRS' COMBINATION. 733 OKGANIZE. Office of the Undertakers' Association of Ontario, Hamilton, October, 1885. To the Undertakers of the Province of Ontario : — At the anonal meeting of the above named association, held in the city of Toronto, 16ih September, 1885, it was deemed advisable to organize local district, county and city associations. The past year has been one of interesting and important results to the profes- sion in the Province of Ontario, and it is the purpose of the present officers to make this the crowning effort of their earnest and successful labors* in this direction. You, and each of you, are fraternally requested to immediately join in a call for a meeting of the undertakers of your county, city, or district, in some central loca- tion, for the purpose of organizing a local association. Two or more counties may be consolidated, forming a district association, if deemed desirable. In the thorough organization of every part of the province into local aseociatioEs lies the future of our provincial association. The sooner you are organized and ccme together and converse with one another ard by a^mutual under- standing in your several localities, the sooner you will be masters of the situation by getting rid of the illegitimate undertaker. You can then control and regulate the trade, within your own territory, to suit yourselves. Do not delay in com muni catirg with those doing businees as undertakei-s in your county or district, and have them join your local organization, and point out to those who are not members of the provincial association the advantages to b© gained by their hearty cc-operation, reminding them if they have been in business as undertakers prior to Bid July, 1884, they are eligible for membership — providing they are of good moral character and are provided with the necessary stock acd equipments to professionally perform their duties. The admission fee to those who have been in the business prior to July, 1884^ will be two dollars until the end of present year, after that date twenty-five doUara will be charged with an annual fee of two dollars. Our present membership is 325, still we desire to have every undertaker worthy of the name, on our roll of membership before the end of the present year. Will you assist us by your hearty co-operation, so we can reap the fruits of our well spent labor by endeavoring to elevate and bring to a higher state of perfection our noblft calling. Fraternally yours, C. B. BLACHFOED, Secretary, J. B. McINTYEE, President, Hamilton, Ont. St. Catharines, Ont. [Note. — The annual dues for the year ending 16th September, 1886, are now due, all that have not paid are requested to send in the amount ($2) to the secretary at once.] •734 UNDKRTAKBR8' COMBINATION, fQ *> ,u, o J n • << >< «« «» : t- OS o CO d o © s s s 8 g © o © to CD «» ■* M» •<* to CO e- 00 00 o> c«; o «> 1 : : lO : © : 8 •- e» : *" : at o • o ■o o M3 o s © o © c o <0 CI >o to «D «» ■* lO ■♦ CO CO fc- 00 00 0> cr • to • • o © * - z ej • • o «^ «» : ^- I I A o a» u 8 to s 3 o •o g. 8 o o © O ta •« €» ■* lO ■* to CO »• 00 00 o> Cfl o >o o ta © © © o o o o t» o to o «o »» •* to •* CO CO «- oo 00 a» et m d o o e s ao 04 s o to 8 g 8 g >o «» •* lO ^ CO CD t- 00 00 o> « m o o o • o • to o o o 00 •>«< o ; • t- • © to lO ^ CO •o ■* CO : t- : 00 »» © - •o ■n o >o • © • © to o a» *» e9 c» r- • >o • to • t- © ^ t» CO •o ■* lO : CO 00 : co ^ m o o O . © 8 © o CO o <=> >o ' © t s o •^ ^ to lO ■tJI >o : CO s ! oo CO 0» « d o o g s 8 • g . : © to : 8 © ■^ » CO '«K CO >o ' >o r ? t- CO o> o •o § «s o to • . lO • © © l-l o to ■* ^ CO >* CO ■* to * : t- ' to 00 e> d 00 ^ 8 ; 8 : : o o : o o 8 w «» en co CO ■* • to ; " t» to 00 "5) : g o o I o "3 be a 00 : 8 gloss white, half gl striped ...,.~ 0. 15.-0. Q. top ca» "S) : a o •s a, •c V 0. 0.— Hospital CO glass, not striped. 0. 1. — Double tor ► \ a I (S : o : 1- Otto is |l 6-| 3 —Double top rosewood imitatio glass, striped 0. 6.— Double top a o « 1 n a "3 glass, striped 0. 6.— Double top burl imitation, pan beaded sides, half striped 0. 7.-0. G. top o oa 1 i o Et a> 2 : a. l ° c . mO oTI Soo ■3>o a : .2 i a, o 6 6 1 d 1 a o £ a of o 6 IV •a « a -a S3 «a M 1. twCO ^2 i bCn p a 00 00 tt 'oo -Q lb .a OD o SB to SB SB « SB SB K IB SB SB SB o : : : : • : 2 St" tnt4 1 M a o J? H 1 i a V 1 a o a c ! i t 9 o s -a -So s S a OS J3 H U O' n H o m 'O 00 OB ' Jl » 08 » a-r _ •a Srte o'^ a-5o ^ » — ^ "a a -a e^S S— • o 0< m o Id a T3 •a t« « a w 3 « o-o 0^ OS a 3 «". a • O 00 "2 a ti ea a) nO .O 0. ao ^ &i 2 ^ 736 UNDKRTAKB&S COMBINATION. CLOTH COVERED COFFIN'S AND CASKETS. Telegraph Key. Aylmer > Kingston.. ~...~. Victoria Ottawa Windsor Pftrth Montreal ist. Thomas St. Catharines.., Toronto. Loodim. Brampton. . Description. No. 11. — Doable top. cloth covered coffin, yelTet beads on top and sides No. 12. — Double top coffin, extra panel on top, velvet or cloth beads on sides No. 47.— Style M., 0. G. casket, octagon ends covered with crape cloth, velvet beads, sliding glass.. No. 48.— Style M., O. G. top casket, octagon ends, all cloth, sliding glass - No. 49.— Style M., 0. G. top casket, octagon ends, combination of cloth and velvet, sliding glass No. 60.— Style M , 0. G top casket, octagon ends, made of hardwood, all cloth or combination of cloth and velvet No. 81.— Style M., 0. G. top casket, octagon end, draped, all broad- cloth or combination of cloth and velvet, sliding glass No. 82.— Style P., 0. G. top casket, eleptic end, made of hardwood, draped, chinelle fringe, satin cord and slides, sliding glass No. 84.— Style, Crown Prince, 0. G. top casket, eleptic end, made of hardwood, all cloth or combina- tion of cloth and velvet, sliding glass No. 86.— Style, Crown Prince, 0. G. top casket, made of hardwood, eleptic ends, satin fluting above and below beads on body, all cloth or combination of cloth and velvet, sliding glass No 86.— Style, Puritan, 0. G. top casket, made of hardwood, round ends, heavy satin cord on body and top, sliding glass No 87.— Style, Puritan, 0. G. top casket, made of hardwood, round ends, all cloth, draped, cord and slides, sliding glass 6.6 10 00 10 25 12 00 16 00 16 00 17 66 22 00 30 GO 20 00 24 00 26 00 28 00 6.9 $ c. 10 00 10 26 I 12 00 15 00 16 06 17 60 22 00 30 00 20 00 24 0« 26 00 28 00 5.9 $c. 11 00 11 25 13 00 16 00 16 00 18 60 23 00 6.0 21 00 $ c. 10 00 10 26 12 00 16 00 16 00 6.0 $ c 11 00 11 26 13 00 16 00 16 00 17 60 18 60 22 00 30 00 20 00 24 00 26 00 28 00 23 00 21 00 6.3 $ c. 10 00 10 26 12 00 16 00 16 00 17 60 ,22 00 30 00 20 00 24 00 26 00 28 00 6.3 X $ c. 11 00 11 25 13 00 16 OO 16 0* 18 5» 23 OO 21 00- ODTSIDB CASES. 2 ft. to 2 ft. 6 in. ... 2 ft. 9 in. to 3 ft. 3 in.. 3 ft. 6 in. to 4 ft. 3 in. , 4 ft. 6 in. to 6 ft.. 6 ft. 3 in. to 6 ft. 3 in.. Extra size cases 90 80 I 00 1 26 I 60 1 8« 2 26 Tbbmb: — Fear months ; or 10 per cent, prompt cash inside thirty'days. c. Contained in 47a. TORONTO COAL TBADS. 73^ EXHIBIT 48. STATEMENT IN BEHALF OF THE " COAL TRADE BRANCH OF THE TORONTO BOARD OF TRADE," WIIH STATUTORY DECLARATIONS ANNEXED THERETO. In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged "Combines." This statement is made on behalf of the " Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade," and is submitted to the committee verified by the annexed declara- tions of persons actively engaged in the trade, comprising representatives of all th& principal companies and firms who have been for some time past and are now im- porting anthracite coal into the city of Toronto for the purpose of sale. There is not now and has not been any combination of any kind whatever amongst the coal dealers of Toronto for the regulation of the trade in soft coal or wood except where sold in connection with anthracite coal. The association known as " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade," and which is the only combination existing in the city of Toronto for tho regulation of the trade in anthracite coal, is in no sense a " combine " for the pur- pose of keeping up the price of coal beyond what will return a small margin of profit to those engaged in the trade, and has not been instrumental in depriving the public of what everyone desires, namely, coal at fair and reasonable rates. The people of Ontario are dependent entirely upon the anthracite deposits ia the State of Pennsylvania for their supply of hard or anthracite coal. This deposit is now and has for years past been practically controlled by the five leading trans- portation companies who have access to the mining districts, and the coal operators on their lines, by whom the prices of coal for the northern and western market aro entirely regulated. The companies referred to are : — 1. The Dekware and Lackawanna Railway Company, 2. The Erie Railway Company, 3. The Reading Railway Company, 4. The Pennsylvania Railway Company, 5. The Lehigh Yalley Railway Company, all of whom, except the Pennsylvania Company, are also mining companies. For many years past it has been and still is the practice for representatives of these companies and the coal operators on their lines of railway to meet from month to month towards the close of each month and to fix the wholesale prices for the northern and western markets for the ensuing month. The prices for Ontario are fixed at the bridge across the Niagara River and at Ijake Ontario shipping ports. With a view to securing uniformity of prices, and to prevent the sale of coal at less than cost, with its consequent demoralization of trade, committees from the companies and operators above referred to have frequently visited Toronto for the purpose of meeting the local dealers and of bringing about^ an organization amongst them. It was found that as in the case of many other trades, competition amongst the coal dealers, more particularly during the summer season, became so keen that in many instances the trade was being carried on at an actual loss, and that not only those selling at less than cost, but also those who were endeavoring to do a legitimate business, stood a fair chance of being plunged into insolvency, a result which, as can be easily understood, the United States operators had a deep interest in averting. In the spring of 1886 one of these committees visited Toronto, called the various importers together, and insisted upon an organization, at the same time threatening that anthracite coal would not be supplied to the city dealers unless some general agree- ment as to uniform prices were arrived at. When it is borne in mind that the sup- ply of hard coal, limited as it is entirely to the one district, does not exceed, bat, on the contrary, falls rather short of the demand, it will be seen that the situation was a serious one not only to those who had a large amount of capital invested in the 3—47 38 STATEMENT. business, but also to the general public, and that the threat held out by the transpor- tation companies was not an idle one. Agreements of various kinds had prior to that time been entered into by the coal dealers of Toronto for the protection of their interests, but for reasons which it would be idle now to discuss they had generally resulted in failure. Owing to the pressure which was brought to bear from the United States to com- pel organization here and the adoption of uniform prices the coal dealers of Toronto organized themselves into a branch of the Toronto Board of Trade under the provisions of the charter of that institution . It might here be pointed out that in forming this branch the coal dealers have simply adopted the course taken by other business men in the city of Toronto who are also members of the Board of Trade. Branches or sections have been established in many lines of business for the purpose of protecting the interests of those engaged in that particular line. Each branch has its own constitution and by-laws adjusted 80 as to be applicable to the peculiarities of each line of business. The constitution and by-laws of the coal trade branch are subject to the approval of the council of the Board of Trade who have the right to interfere if improper or exorbitant prices for coal be fixed by the coal trade branch. They are open to pubic inspection at all reason- able hours and do not in any sense constitute a secret agreement. The council of the Board of Trade may at ary time demand from the executive committee of the coal trade branch a statement showing the percentage of profit made by any member of the branch and may take such action upon such statement as the circumstances may warrant. It has been charged against the coal trade that those engaged in it are bound by a solemn oath to keep up the prices. This charge may be met by a very simple explanation. It is a matter of general knowledge that every well conducted cor- poration, society or other organization has some form of obligation to be subscribed to by its members, containing a promise or undertaking to obey and conform to the rules or by-laws of the corporation or society as the case may be. In some instances this takes the form of a simple subscription as in a stock book and in other cases it takes the form of a declaration . In the coal trade branch it takes the latter form , The declaration to be made by each member is in the following form : — " I have carefully read the constitution and by-laws and special rulee of the association known as ' The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade,' and that I will, BO long as I continue a member of the said association, truly, faithfully and honestly observe, perform and keep the provisions and terms thereof, and shall not commit or attemptto commit or allow others on my behalf to commit, or attempt to commit any secret or other evasion or violation thereof." This is the only obligation that members of the branch are required to enter into. Having shown that the organization is one which has been forced upon the coal dealers by those hiving control of the market in the United States that its object is not to exact exorbitant rates or to wring a high price out of the people, that the price lists are subject to supervision by the council of the Board of Trade, and that the obligations entered into by its members do not differ materially from those entered into by the members of any other society or organization, some of the results of the organization may now be pointed out. They are as follows ;^ a. The uniform price of coal in Toronto during the past two years, it is be- lieved, has been less than in any other part of Ontario where the cost of transporta- tion and expenses are as heavy as in Toronto. b. The net average profits of the coal importers who are members of the asso- ciation, since its organization, out of their coal trade, has not exceeded 25 cents per ton, which is less than a fair profit, and which it is most respectfully submitted is very much less than ought to be expected from the large amount of risk assumed in the business. An attempt has been made to show that in the calculation upon which this margin of profit is ascertained, the coal dealers have not taken into considera- tion the circumstance that in the United States coal is purchased by the gross ton, t. «., 2,240 lbs., but is handled and sold in this province by the net ton, i, e., 2,000 TORONTO COAL TRADB. 739 lbs., and it is said that the cost of tho difference, namely, 240 lbs., should be added to the 2.> cents, thus showing a profit of over 80 cents a ton, instead of 25 cents. This contention is baaed upon ignorance of the true facts. The distinction between net tons and gross tons has been kept clearly in mind in making the calculations upon which the estimate of profit is based. Although the coal is purchased by the gross ton, yet the reckoning in this province is by the net ton. c. The organization has been a benefit to the poor man, who only requires a few tons of coal during the winter months, and has deprived the large consumer ot an advantage which he formerly possessed, because now the same rates are paid by rich and poor. The merchant prince, who requires 100 tons a year to heat his palatial residence, is now obliged to pay the same rate as the poorest laborer from whose humble cottage the cold is banished by the use of two or three tons. Formerly this was not the case. The enquiry at once suggests itself : How is this explained ? It is well known that the lowest range of prices is reached in the summer season. Tho rich man could afford to pay for his winter's coal during the summer, when it waJs cheap, but the poor man was compelled, for want of means, to wait until he actually required the coal, and then he was obliged to pay the winter rate. Since the orga- nization and owing to the equalization of prices, the general public have given orders in summer, when the rates were low, for the winter's supply of coal, payable on delivery as required during the winter, but at the summer rates. This has been found to be an inestimable boon to the working man, as since the 1st of May last about four-fifths of the whole supply of hard coal has been booked in this way during the summer for winter delivery. The coal dealer takes the risk of the price being raised on him by the United States operator, as the season advances, and this risk is at times a very serious one. It may be answered that the coal dealer can obviate this risk by getting in his coal during the early part of the summer, when the prices are low. This advantage can be gained in the smaller towns, where a few vessel loads will fill the supply, but not in Toronto, because it is impossible to pro- cure so large a supply earJy in the season, and quite impracticable to find storage at any one time for the whole year's supply. Experience has shown that the Toronto dealers cannot get their orders filled, or nearly filled, during the summer months, and the invariable rule with the American operators is to charge the rate prevail- ing at the time of delivery, although the orders from the Toronto importer may. have been booked months before. d. Public institutions in the city of Toronto have, since the organization, been supplied with hard coal, at reasonable rates, namely, at the wholesale price paid by the importer, with proper charges added, such as cartage, yard and office expenses, and a small margin of profit; but, in some instances, such institutions have been supplied at a loss to the dealer. As reference has been made by some portions of the press, and in the examina- tion of Mr. Wood before the committee, to the practice of auctioning the public contracts, and as a large amount of misconception seems to exist upon that subject, an explanation may not be unnecessary, and is submitted with the hope that such misconception will thus be cleared up. When the question of supplying the demand for coal of a public institution came before the dealers for consideration, the price was fixed by the executive committee, and in every case has been less than the priee paid by the general consumer, as warranted by the difference in the cost of delivery. The plan was a pooling arrangement, pure and simple, and was designed with a view to making this trade pay its share of the yard and office expenses of the importer (including interest and insurance) amounting to about 40 cents per ton on the importer's entire tonnage. In the case of the waterworks contract, which was taken at an exceptionally low figure, no allowance was made for this item of general expense, as tho waterworks department has its own wharf, upon which the coal is unloaded directly from the vessels and does not require to pass through the dealers* yards at all, and the cost of cartage is also saved. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that the coal supplied for the waterworks is grate size anthracite, the whole- fiftle price of which is always from 25 to 50 cents per ton less than the stove and nat 740 STATEMENT, eizo, the kind generally aaed by the ordinary oonsamor for domestic parposos. Mr. Wood, not being in the trade, was unable to make these explanations to the committee* After the prices had been fixed by the committee, it became necessary to settle some equitable plan for the distribution of this business amongst the dealers, and the plan ultimately adopted has been found to work fairly and impartially. Any importer wishing to secure a particular contract, entered into competition therefor "with the other importers, and the one who was willing to pay the largest amount eecured the contract . The amount so paid does not, by any means, represent the value of the contract to the importer who secures it, because one-sixth of the pay- ment is applied towards the expenses of the branch, and the remaining five sixths is divided amongst all the dealers, including the one who pays the money in pro- portion to their imports. This is a matter of internal regulation which works no injustice to the institution purchasing the coal, because the price is in every instance less than that paid by the general public. It may be added, that the organization has been formed under section fifteen of the Act incorporating the Toronto Board of Trade and the Toronto Corn Exchange Association, passed by the Dominion Parliament in April, 1884. This section reads as follows: — '• Any number of members who may desire to associate themselves together in a trade branch, with a view to promoting more effectually the interests of any particular trade, may, with the permission of the council, previously obtained, form themselves into such trade branch." Then, again, it ought to be pointed out that much misapprehension may be, and probably has been, occasioned by not clearly bearing in mind that there are many varieties of anthracite coal, that these varieties differ very greatly in quality and that the prices vary according to the quality. It is quite possible to lay down coal in Toronto for less money per ton than that paid by the principal importers, but each coal is of an inferior quality and of a lower grade than that required for the Toronto market, which is standard coal. Consequently, a comparison between the prices of such coal and that which forms the bulk of the importation, must bo oxtremely unreliable. The coal referred to can be readily purchased at from 50 cents to ^l per ton less than standard coal. la the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged " Combines". I, Samuel Crane, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a member of the firm of S. Crane & Co., carrying on business as coal dealers in the city of Toronto, and have been actively engaged in such business for about twenty years last past, that I ama mem> ber of " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Boaid of Trade," that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said committee, that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the '* Act respecting Extra Judicial oaths." SAMUEL CRANE. I>eolared before me at the city of Toronto, 1 ~ in the County of York, this llth day y of April, 1888. ) W. B. Ratmond, A Commistioner for taking affidavits in and for the County of York* TORONTO GOAL TRADB. 741 "bi the matter of the Enquiry before & Committee of the House of Oommoos of Canada in reference to alleged " Combines." I, Balph B. Gibson, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York, and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am president of the Conger Coal ■Company, coal dealers in the city of Toronto, and I have been actively engaged in the coal business in Toronto for over two years last past, that I am a member of " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade," that I have read the state- ment hereunto annexed to ba submitted to the said committee, that I have a know- ledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the " Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." EALPH E. GIBSON. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, "| in the County of York, this 10th day > of April, 1888. ) A. B. Crselman, A Commissioner for taking affidavits in and for the County of York, In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged " Combines." I, John Keith, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a ooal dealer in the city of Toronto, and have been actively engaged in such business for about fourteen years last past, that I am a member of " The Ooal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade," that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said committee, that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein con- tained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief ; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the " Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." JOHN KEITH. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, in the County of York, this lOth day April, 1888. A. B. Creelman. A Commissioner *or taking Affidavits in and for the County of York, } In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of CSanad^ in reference to alleged " Combines." I, John R. Bailey, of the city of Toronto, in the Oottnty of York, and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I, as a coal dealer, in the city of Toronto, have been actively engaged in such business for about twelve years last past, that I am a member of "The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto B^ardof Trade," that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be suboaitted to the said committee, that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein oon- tained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, informatioa 742 DECLABATIONS. and belief ; and I make this Bolemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the " Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." JOHN R. BAILEY. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, "j in the County of York, this 9 th day [■ of April, 1888. ) W. B. Eaymond, A Commissioner for taking Affidavits in and for the County of York, In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged "Combines." I, James Cowan, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a member of the firm of C, C. Ray & Co., carrying on business as coal dealers in the city of Toronto, and have been actively engaged in such business for about one year last past, and prior to that time I had about four years' experience in the coal business in Ottawa ; that I am a member of " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade;" that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said committee ; that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the •' Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." JAMES COWAN. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, ") in the County of York, this 6 th day V of April, 1888. ) W. B. Raymond, A Commissioner for taking Affidavits in and for the County of York, In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged "Combines." I, Frederick Harold Thompson, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a coal dealer ia the city of Toronto ; have been actively engaged in such business for about three years last past ; that I am a member of " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto !Board of Trade;" that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said committee ; that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the " Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." F. H. THOMPSON. Declared before me at the oLty of Toronto, in the County of York, this 6th day April, 1888. W. B. Raymokd, A Commissioner for taking Affidavits in and for the County of York. to,) TORONTO COAL TBADS. 743^ Id the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged '* Combines." I, Thomas Coulter, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a coal dealer in ihe city of Toronto ; have been actively engaged in euch business for about two and a quarter years last past; that I am a member of "The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto ioard of Trade ;" that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said committee ; that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained, and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information acd belief, and 1 make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the *' Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." THOS. COULTER. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, in the County of York, this 6th day of April, 1888. W. B. RA.YM0ND, A Commissioner for taking Affidavits in and for the County of York, } In the matter of the Enquiry before a Committee of the House of Commons of Canada in reference to alleged " Combines." I, Elias Eogere, of the city of Toronto, in the County of York and Province of Ontario, coal dealer, do solemnly declare that I am a member of the firm of "Elias Sogers and Company," carrying on business as coal dealers in the city of Toronto, and have been actively engaged in such business for about twelve years last past; that I am a re ember of " The Coal Trade Branch of the Toronto Board of Trade," that I have read the statement hereunto annexed to be submitted to the said com- mittee, that I have a knowledge of the facts and circumstances therein contained and I declare that they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief ; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the " Act respecting Extra Judicial Oaths." BUAS ROGERS. Declared before me at the city of Toronto, ") in the County of York, this sixth day >• of April, 1888. 3 W. B. Raymond, A Commissioner for taking Affidavits in and for the County of York. MDEX. Agricultural implements, 356, 357, 392. Banking, Alleged combination in, 555. Barley Trade of Ontario : — No combination amongst exporters, 309, 314, Standards, how fixed, 308, 316. Eflfeot of color in grading, 316. The malting industry in Canada, 310, 317. Ontario barley, special excellence of for malting, 309, 316, 318, Canadian barley, relation in prices of, in the United States to the duty, 316, Export to England, 318. Barbed Wire: — Manufacture of in Canada — sold at a fixed price generally, 358, 374. Yarious kinds and their prices — terms, 359. Manufactured under patent, pay- ing royalty, 360, 368, 371. Royalty paid per hundred pounds— consumption of— decline of prices since being made in Canada, 372. Biscuits: — Sold under combination, 71, 75, 80. Comparative prices in Montreal and New York, 132-138. Extent and profits of biscuit manufactory, 135. Prices raised since the combination, 75. Cost of material decreased, 135. Manufacturers in the combination and its headquarters, 128, 138. Objects of the combination and how managed, its officers and executive, 138, 140, 142. Freights regulated, 138. Jjard in sodas — Can. lard best, 139. The combination regulate manufacturers prices — a complaint, 140. Bunning a factory, wages, material, &c., 143. Canadian Watch Jobbers' Association;:— In American watches, 323-346. The combination affiliated with American Elgin and Waltham Watch Go's., 324, 325. The American Watch Case Co. of Toronto forced into the combination, 326, A movement to crush out Stark's Watch Case factory — an injunction, 326, 427, 508. 'First organization of the Canadian Watch Jobbers' Combination, 332. CombinatioQ rules absolute as to sale and purchase, 333. Bogus watch movements — profits of the trade, 336. Eapid and large increase of sale of American watches in Canada, 338. The American manufacturers fix the prices at which their goods shall be sold in Canada, 339. Canadian Watch Jobbers' Combination, when formed, 340. Fines for violation of combination rules, 343. Constitution and by-laws of the combination, 508. Contract between the Elgin National Watch Company and the Canadian Watch Jobbers' Association, 611. Coal Dealers Association, London, Ont. :— Origin of the combination — Object of, to limit competition and sustain prices, 241. Import and retail prices of coal, 242-244. Violation of local association rules reported to the local exchange at Buffalo for action — Contracts by lender, how managed, 245. Prices at which Gov- ernment tenders were taken, 246. Discrimination against private citizens in com- bination prices charged them for coal, as compared with the prices charged in Grov- ernment tenders, 247. Coal consumption of London, 248. By-Laws and Kules of the coal association, 617-619. Statement of cost of coal at London, 619. 3—38 746 INDEX. Coal Trade of CobOUrg, Ont. : — No combination in coal— Sources and ports of jsupply, 228. Import cost at Cobourg — Rebates allowed by American dealers — No dictation by American suppliers to fix prices — Retail prices and profits, 22U-231— Terms of credit, 233. Coal Trade Branch, Toronto Board of Trade. :— Membership fee, 145, 564. Origin of the eoal branch, its promoters and amalgamation with the Board of Trade, 164. Pines, 165, 584. The pool, 166, 171. Tender contracts, how regulated and instances, 166, 170. Oath required of members and employes, 158, 172, 573. Disparity between prices of coal charged to citizens and contract prices, 169. Con- tracts and prices enumerated, 171. The Toronto Association in concert with the Anthracite Association of the United States — How the supplies of a dealer not in the combination are stopped, 172, 174, 584. Executive Committee how composed, 564. Executive Committee fix retail price of coal, 565. Constitution and by-law3 deposited with Council of the Board of Trade, 564. Constitution, by-laws and special rules submitted in evidence by Gr. W. Wood, Secretary to the Coal Trade Branch, 610. Minutes of meetings of the Coal Trade Branch, 566-610. Statement in behalf of the Coal Trade Branch with Statutory Declarations thereto, 7 j7-743. Combination, conspiracy, 28, 31, 136— remedies suggested, 22, 24, 66, 77, 136. Cordage and Binder Twine Combination, 345, 397. Manufactures of cordage and iwine in Canada. — Fibre under control of an American syndicate, 345, 400. Efforts of the American Syndicate to control the business in Canada, 346. Effects of the Syndicate upon Canadian business, 347. Terms of the combination— The pool, 348, 399, 401. Prices of the manufactured and raw material, 350-351, 353, 398 Progress of the business, 352. Duration of the combination, 397. Dissolution of, 398. Hands employed and wages of, 301, 302. Output of binder twine in Canada, 402. Eggs : —Combination of dealers to repress prices against farmers— Keeping down the price in Canadian towns to favor purchase prices lor export, 318-319. General Groceries Stock under Combination:— Baking Powder— Short weight packages of, 19, 71, 72, 74, 503. Candles, 71. Brandy, 111. Confections, 129, 138. Gin, 71,72.81, 111. Whiskey, 71, 72, 111. Gooderham's whiskey, 73. Walker's whiskey, 80. High wines, 72. Pickles, 71, 73, 130. Nestle's food, 72, Matches (Eddy's), 23, 71. Starch, 71, 72, 73, 75, 90, 530, 547. Soap, 71. Coal oil, 71. Insurance : — Canadian Fire Underwriters' Association, inception of, 428, 458, 459* Ostracizing the mutual insurance and other non combination companies, 421, 425, 447, 459,474. Mutual companies in Association not interferingwith rates, 424, Combination circular aimed at mutual and other outride companies, 422, 630. Combination injur- ing Canadian business by driving risks to the United States for insurance, 425, 472. List of companies in the combination, 631. Association fixes uniform rates, 429, 469, Rates raised by combination, 426, 435, i36, 446, 470, 472, 484, 491, 497. Cast- iron rates remove equitable allowance for moral hazard, 426, 446, 491. Expenses of companies increased by the Association, 436, 4i9, 449, 466. " Moral Hazard," defi- nitions of, 461, 468. Canadian insurance companies being replaced by foreign companies, 463, 497, 498. Objects of forming the combination, 4.^6, 448, 461. Fire losses in Canada for a ten year period, 669 690. Toronto Board of Underwriters, its place . in the insurance combination, 477, 478, 479. The Board re-enacts resolution against non-combination companies, 477, 478, 673, 680. Special discrimination by the Board against the City of Toronto in the matter of insurance rates, 478, 480, 481, 487. The Board hunting non-com- bination companies, 486, 478. INDEX. *Ji*J~ Iron Founders' Association alias Stove Makers :— Firms in the combi- nation, 391. Number not in the combination — basis for fixing prices, 392, 3'.*5. Who fixes the prices — age of the combination, 393. Profits — comparative prices with American made stoves of fine finish, 394. Advance in wages — wages of different classes of workmen, 296. Additions! points on the stove trade, vide 362, 365, 370. Constitution and By-Laws of, 699. Members' bond of asjreement, 702. Terms of Jigreement, 703. Penalties provided — secresy enjoined, 705. Ijard, Canadian production superior to imported, 139. Manufacturers of Ginger Ale, Montreal :— Petition of, 561. SContreal Coal Exchange : — Not connected with the Board of Trade— Objects of the combination to limit competition and sustain prices — Combination when or- ganized, 236. Board of management fix retail prices — A majority of the Board agents for American coal companies, 233. Members not obligated by oath — Fines under certain provisions — Import and retail prices — Eebates to importers — Eetail dealers not in the combination discriminated against in prices, 234-241. Minimum profits fixed — Prices for tender contracts fixed — No allotment of tenders, 235, 23:J, 240. Importation prices fixed in the U.S., 236-238. Oatmeal : — Miller's association and object of, 375. Mills in Ontario — Capacity of pro- duction — Consumption of the Dominion — U.S. duty upon — Scotch meal, 376. Prices and export, 377. Combination when organized — Prices fixed, 378. The pool how formed and managed, 379, 381. Production checked by renting mills to shut down- rentals paid them, '6kO. Manitoba oats in probable future competition with the On- tario product, 283. Points on practical milling, 385. Combination purchase of oats, 626. Mills leased to shut down and rentals— Salary of secretary, 627. Bules and by-laws of the combination, 620* Minutes of meetings, 625, Ottawa Goal Cartage Co..— The company chartered, 174. Charter members, 221. The present holders and promoters of the company, 174, 249. Directors, 249. A combination on the " Trust " system, 175, 220, 254. Ketail prices of coal fixed by the directors, 175. Associated dealers paid from the pool, 176, 117. Impor- tation cost of coal, 179. Quantity sold and profits, 181. The companies' capital — Det piofits after deducting charges on the pool — Bate per cent, realized, 181. Con- tracts by tender, how managed, 184, 259. Cost of coal increased to con- sumers by the combination, 184, 18(?, 188, 322. Efforts of the C. A. Eailway to bring in eoal frustrated, 263, 321. Interference to stop supplies to outside dealers, 185, 188, 189, 252, 263. Retail Grocers Association, Montreal :— Petition of, 58. Not a combination, 61. Memorial to G. A, Drummond, 661. Ketail Grocers, Quebec, 513. Betail Grocers and Manufacturers, Sherbrooke, 514. Eetail Grocers, London, Ont., 515. Eetail Grocers' Association, Hamilton, 547. Sugar :— Origin of the combination upon sugar, 11, 29, 102, 117. First orgnization of, as the Dominion Wholesale Grocers' Guild, 526. Conditions of eligibility for membership, 500, 521. The agreement signed by members, 503. List of members showing names struck ofi", 501. Sugar under combination, 11, 36. 69. The parties, Principals in the combination, 11, 22, 36, 37, 69, 80, 86, 108. A total boycott at- tempted, 12, 119, 120. Discrimination in prices agreed upon, 11, 12, 13, 14, 36, 38, 40. Discrimination in Discounts and Terms, 36, 40, 69, 84, 94, 521. Freights arranged, 504. Cost increased to the consumer, 17, 20, 50, 60, 69, ^5, 108, 110. Profits of wholesalers, 17, 50, 106. Profits improved and secured under combination. 748 INDEX. 109, 117. Competition destroyed, 97. Specified losses by discrimination. 31, 17, 84, 100. Aggressiveness of the combination, 17, 64,120,521. Connection of the Re- finers with the combination r—The Canada Refinery, 11, 36,37, 119, 120. The Halifax Refinery, 11,34, 118. St. Lawrence Refinery, 11, 119, 120. The Moncton Refinery, 11, 34, 180, 504, 505, 519, 520. Organized Protests against the combination, 68, 513, 514, 515, 618, 561. Importation, 12, 15, 31, 564. Raw sugars, annual production of cane, — beet, — Cuba's yearly product, 47. Minutes of meetings of the Dom. Whole- sale Grocers' Guild (17 June, '84—16 Nov., '87), 526, 5i7. Tobacco :— Combination on, 23, 103, 120. Wholesale advances on cost, 23, 24, 105, 522, 538. Manufacturers of, a party to the combination, 23, 103, 105, 528, Excise duty, 105. Toronto :— Grocery Trade, 107. Twine : — Canadian make superior to imported, 368. Undertakers* Combination : — When organized— Constitution adopted — Manu- facturers of cofSins and undertakers' included in the combination, 404. A local power to prevent new hands entering upon the business — Manufacturers bound to sell to none outside the combination — Prices uniform, 405. Dealers in coffin trim- mings bound not to sell, " even a nail," to anyone outside the combination — Barring the way to entering, 406. Cost and selling price of coffins and caskets, 407, 413, 417. Forced by the combination from inheriting a father's business, 409, 410. A dealer punished for his mistake, 411. Name of firms who refused goods, 412, 417. Entrance refused to an experienced Undertaker, and names of the parties, 413, 415. Oath and fine provided against violation of combination rules, 414, 418. Cost of material — Difficulty in procuring — Difficulty of importation, 414, 415. Keeping down the number — Affiliation — Extortionate charges, 416. Gross frauds in coffins — Ceaseless watching, 417. One who would like to sell but dare not for terror of the combination, 418. Hearse manufacturers refuse to join — Cost of a cheap funeral in Toronto, 419. Constitution and by-laws of the undertakers' combination, 707. Suspended members and non-members of the combination ostracised from all business communion — Manu- facturers selling any article to a non-member to be boycotted — No supplies to be purchased from a non-member — Secrecy of meetings enjoined under penalty (By- Laws, sections 24 30), 709. Second annual session, 710. Bond of obligation signed by the representatives of the Undertakers' Association of the first part and the representatives of the Dominion Burial Casket Association of the second part, by which the second party thereto is bound under penalty to sell no caskets, any coffin material or to furnish price lists to anyone not a member of Undertakers' Com- bination, 713, 714. Exchange of courtesies between the Can. and U. S. Combina- tions, 730, 731. An official urgent appeal to organize, 733. Manufacturers price lists to members of the combination, 734. WITNESSES.— Baskerville, Patrick , , 124 Bell, William 212 Boomer, James ^ 447 Bowman, William 241 iJoulton, A. E ,. ', 409 Brown, J. ^ 264 Butterworth, J. G 249 Carter, R. C 319 Childs, George 88 Clay, W. B » ^ ^..^ 122 INDEX. 749 Connell, Thomas ^ 202 CTonnor. John ^.v^^i.w.v 345 do (recalled) .^..^.......v^i 341 Copp, W. J - rf.. ...v...w^..^ 392 l>onald, Mc, D. C , .„ 421 Drummond, Greorge Alexander .-..\ ...... ;tf^.vw«M 35 Dwan, Michael ii,,.^ 302 Easton, W. H 184 Ellis, Matthew C 340 Esmonde, Joseph ...;........... 362 Ferguson, John .i.... ... 497 Eraser, Donald Alexander ...vv..v..vw.'..... 58 Gibson, W. C „ 137 Giilard, W. H ;...........; 113 Graves, F. H , .wi.iii.^.; 365 Hadrill, Alfred W ^ 465 Hanson, George ....i.w;.. /..^.v^.v 491 Hargraft, Alexander E 228 Hartt, George F .^^ 233 Hatton, Henry 391 Heberfc, Charles P 109 Ince, William « « 102 Ives, H. E 370 Jones, John H 332 Kavanagh, Joseph 127 KelljyPatrick ^^ ^ 3l8 do , 498 Larmonth, Peter 174 do (recalled) 191 Lean, Mc, Eohert 428 Lightbound, George ., 11 Lockerby, W. W , 112 Lowrie, William Hugli 445 Massey, H. A ., 353 Matthewson, J. A - , 29 Matthewson, W. B 99 Matthews, Wilmot D 304 Moffat, Eobert 413 Morris, Alexander W 397 Paul, Walter 81 do (recalled) 131 Bay, C. C ^ 218 fiobertson, John €9 3-39 750 INDEX. Bogers, Elias 145 do (recalled) , 2'7l Bogers, Samuel « , 403 Boss, David Eobert 375 Scott, Hugh 468 Sedgeworth, John 344 Sewell, H. H 114 Sinclair, David 55 Stark, Charles 323 Tatley, William JBS Taylor, George Thompson, George F Todd, Percy E Wills, Edgar A do (recalled) ^ „. Wood, G. W Workman, Thomas "*♦ Young, William * *496 1 ''^^M?>i^^^m^r:^'y^f'% M^ UNIVERSITY OP CALIFORNIA LIBRARY THIS BOOK IS DUE ON THE LAST DATE STAMPED BELOW ^k 30m-6,'14 i ^RS^ 1^ m m f"^. %^'