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CONGRESS. HOUSE. COMMITTEE 01! ACCOUIITS.
Electrical and mechanical system of voting
=i)l
GIFT OF
Mrs. ^-^elen Groff
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM
OF VOTING
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
First Session
ON
H. RES. 223
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE AND INSTAL-
LATION OF AN ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL
SYSTEM OF VOTING IN THE HOUSE
OF REPRESENTATIVES
WAHHINGTON
GOVKRNMJCN'l' IMtlNTINO OPPIOE
lb 10
• s
• • •
ELECTRICAL X^J) MECHAxXICAL SYSTEM OF VOTIKG.
Committee on Accounts,
House of Eepresentatives,
Monday, May 15, 1916.
The committee this day met, Hod. James T. Lloyd (chairman)
presiding.
?i-^ The Chairman. We ha\ e met this morr.ing for the purpose of
N^having a h'^irh^g on House resolution ^ o. 223, introduced by Mr.
'K>Howard. Mr. Howard is here and we will be glad to hear from him.
Statement of hon. william s. howaed, a representa-
^ TIVE in congress from the state of GEORGIA.
y Mr. Howard. Mr. Chairman, this is a resolution introduced by me
Vj at tlie suggestion of several of the officials of the House and many
■^Members of the House. The purpose of this legislation is to appoint
-^^ a committee to investigate the advisability of purchasing a system
\j by which the vote of the House can be recorded accurately an,d more
promptly than it is under the present system. Durin.g a long session
5*^ of Congi-ess some mathematician, a Member of the House, figured
\ the time consumed by Congress in eallii^g the roll during that session
. of Con.gress, and it amounted, I thin.k, to 56 days of that long session.
(-^ That was the time consumed in roll calls. There is another e \ il about
\ our present system, and I think the Speaker and the chairman of
ev(^ry prominent committee in the House, and all of the old M inbers
> who has c been here for years, will agree tlnit under the ])resent sys-
^ tem the business of Congress being so great, and the work f allin.g upon
>^ the shoulders of Members of Congress is reaching such proportions
»]s that it is almost im]);)ssible for Members to de^()te the time to Irgis-
V;;j lative matters tliat tliey should. Tlie close proximity of the House
. Ofliee Buihhng makes "it so easy for any one Member at any time,
^ if he desires to do it, to tie U]) the dclibcration.s of tli'.> House for a
period exten.ding from an hour to two liours by making jjoints of no
L-: (piorum.
ex I was hero over 20 years ago as private secretary to a Senator. At
*\ thiif time they did not lia\(' any offieo ])uil(ling; the of[ic(^s w( n' scat-
i tx'red all over tiie town, an.d when th*' Houses met at 11 o'cloclv or
^ 12 o'clock, as it does now, all of the Memlx^rs would gather in the
House and they would stay on the door of the House during all of the
[K scission, so that it was the rarest of occurnMiees for a noint of no
■j^ quorum to be made jiiid no nuorum found. I believe that if some
h system ean be found ]»y whieli we can save the 40 mimiles \\hich it
takes to make a roll call- I l)eli(>ve that is the time, is it not, Mr.
South?
Mr. South. From 40 to 45 minutes.
4[> rbSJS
4 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. Howard. Well, an aAcr}\i2;c of 40 minutes. I believe if some
system ct)uld be found b}- wbicli that time could be saved it would be
of great benefit in carrying on the business of the House.
The Chairman. In order to protect the reading clerks, who dislike
very much to have it go on record as consuming that much time, you
will panlon me for saying that the reading clerks insist that they can
call the roll in 25 minutes, but they must call the roll twice, and that
accounts for it taking 40 minutes.
^Ir. Howard. Yes; I mean a complete roll call; I did not mean
that tlie roll was called once; 1 mean it consumes that time under
our system of calling the roll a second time.
Then, another thing is this: Inaccuracies in roll calls are obliged
to occur, and for this reason: While the roll is being called there is
so much confusion on the floor of the House, and it is called with
such rapidity, that the tally clerks, as a rule, can hardly hear the '
responses, and the clerk can hardly hear them. As you gentlemen
know from your experience in Congress there is hardly a morning,
after a roll call of the previous day, that one or more gentlemen do
not get up to correct the roll call. That is not so much an evil, if
you may term it an evil, but it is a waste of time.
I do not believe it will be possible to have any more short sessions
of Congress, because the business of this country has grown immensely
in the last few years and governmental activities are increasing every
day, but I do believe that we could lop off under this system, in a
long session, not less than 30 dajs, and I am going to tell you why.
Some electrical system, such as has been installed in the State
Legislature of Wisconsin, and such as is presented to the Members
here for their personal observation by the gentleman who has this
electrical device here, will not only save at least 30 minutes on each
roll call, but I believe it will have a tendency to keep Members on the
floor of the House, and keep them on the floor from the time the
House meets until it adjourns. And there is where we lose our time.
Mr. Hicks. You propose to economize in time by the use of this
system and you think that will preclude Members from taking the
time to come over to the House on each roll call ?
Mr. Howard. Yes; that is it. For instance, I understand that
under this device not only can the Members vote, but the vote being
counted automatically by some system which js on the Speaker's
desk, a little meter, will be known almost at once, the ayes and nays
and those present. This system, as I understand it, contemplates
each man having a key to vote with and nobody else can vote for
him. It is perfectly accurate, and if a man wants to change his
vote
Mr. Hicks (interposing). You contemplate, then, doing away
entirely with the necessity of a Member coming from the House
Office Building to the House to vote, which will save at least four or
five minutes ?
Mr. Howard. Yes; absolutely. We could have a rule that, say,
five minutes after the question has been put the ballot shall be
closed.
Mr. Hastings. That would have to be by rule of the House ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Of course, this system would not be
worth a penny if wo were going to allow 40 or 50 minutes for Mem-
bers to como in and record their votes.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 5
^fr. Miller. Last year experimonts, I understand, showed that
10 minutes should be the hmit.
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Mr. Walsh, of New Jersey, who is an
electrician and who was a Member of the last House, made a thorough
investigation of an electrical system. I believe he was an expert
electrician, and Mi-. Walsh figured that at least 25 minutes on each
roll call could be saved by this system.
Now, so far as this matter is concerned, I have given, of course,
but little study to it.
The Chairman. Do you know an\i;hing about the cost of it ?
Mr. Howard. I do not.
Tlie CnAiRiL\x. Do you know anything about the different devices
that have been suggested for use by the House ?
Mr. Howard. The onl}- system that I know an3'thing about is the
one which has been suggested to Members of the House by Mr.
Bobn^ff. I believe that experiments with it have shown that it is
absolutely efficient and accurate and that it is easily understood.
I refer to the system which has been presented to Members of the
House in the old Ways and Means Committee room by Mi-. Bobroff.
Tlie Ciiairmax. You mean the system which is here to-day?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir; and that sytem, it occurs to me, would
serve every purpose, and it would amount to a saving of days, if not
weeks, during every session of Congress.
Mr. HicKs. Do jou contemplate taking out the present seating
arrangement and restoring the desks?
Mr. Howard. I do not know what would be best to do under those
circumstances.
Mr. Hastings. Would not that be necessarv with this device that
you have here ?
Mr. Howard. Well, if Meml)ers felt that they had to do their own
work while they were on the floor of the House, if they had to do a
great amount of writing by virtue of staying right on the floor within
the sound of the gong, then, of course, we would have to have some
different system than now exists.
The Cil\irmax. There are two reasons which account for the fact
that we have no quorum. One is the fact that desks have been taken
out of the House of Representatives, and the other fact is that we
have electric bells.
Mr. IIf)WAiU). Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman, l^rior to the time of the installation of the present
seating system, when every man had his own desk and his own seat,
we had nf) electric bells, and there was a quorum on every important
occasiftn. The fpiestion of no quorum was seldom, if ever, laised,
and there was no occasion to raise it, because there was a quorum
present.
Ml-. lb)WARD. That is ttiie.
Tlie Chair.man. But getting back to the (jIIht thing, you realize,
perhaps, as everybody else d(K's, that it would be almost impossible
to change the present system so as to avoid using the (>l(>ctrie bells;
we have got the electrie bells and people* are using tluMU, and I sup-
pose it wouM be an imj)ossible thing to s(<eure a majority vote in
favor of doing away with the electric-bell system, and yet the electric-
bell system lias done more to disorganize the House than any one
thing that ever happeiieih
/
6 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. Howard. I will say this, that in the last Congress I introduced
a resolution to abolish the second roll call.
Mr. Mn.i.Ku. What about the man whose name is at the first part
of tlie alphabet?
Mr. llowAHi). The proposition was to serve the very purpose that
this system is devised to serve. I can remember, and so can every
other' Member of the Sixty-secor.d Congress, when we were havirg
quite a humber of lights on the floor, that points of no ((Uorum would
be made three or foin- or five times a day in order to assist in carrying
on a filil)uster. As a matter of fact, it woidd develop every time the
point of no quorum was made that no ([uoruni was present, and that
necessitated calling th(> roll, ai'd we would accomplish practically
nothing that day. I admit that sometimes the power of th(^ fihbuster
is a very valuable adjunct, esi)ecially to the minority, and I am will-
ing to admit that it would probably k>ej) a good many Members of
the House from doing things during the sessions of the House that
they are now doing, that is, in the way of ofhce work. But we gen-
erally meet at 11 or 12 o'clock; that is the general rule during ordi-
nary sessions of Congress. I do not k low a body of men with whom
I have ever come in contact who are harder workers than Members
of Congress — it is absolutely necessary for them to keep steadily at
work or get irretrievably behind.
The Chairman. What have you to say as to whether or not the
system you suggest would preserve the rights of the minority at all
times ? As you know, one of the rights of the minority is the right
of filibuster.
Mr. Howard. Yes; it is a right, in a sense, under parliamentary
procedure, but at the same time it is a question whether that right
is always exercised for the best interests of the country.
Tne Chairman. We k low it is not, because a man who makes a
point of order does it out of some pique.
Mr. Howard. Precisely.
The Chairman. It is not because of any public good that is to be
served b}" it. Nearly every roll call that we have, every time a point
of order is made, it is because some Member is a little bit piqued.
Mr. Howard. It is to force a compromise, as a rule.
Tlie Chairman. Yes. A man who wants to speak is not allowed
to speak, and then he makes the House pay for it, and he can do it
very readily.
Mr. Howard. That is true. However, the question simply re-
solves itself into this: That this committee present it to the House
if they think it is worthy and say: Do we want to economize the time
of Congress ? If we do, something of this sort should be adopted.
Since the reapportionment was made the membership of the House
has increased, as you know, and the number will continue to increase
as the country grows; if I live my allotted time I expect to see 600
Members on the floor of the House. That being so, we have got to
get away from tlie antiquated system of roll call ; we have got to have
some system of recording the will of the House more rapidly than we
have under the present system. There is no question about that, and
it is a fact that now we can hardly attend, and we do not attend, to
the small affairs of the Government as we should attend to them for
the simple reason we have no time.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 7
Mr. Miller. What do you say about the constitutional provision
as to certain classes of resolutions and bills or veto messages, that there
shall be a roll call by the clerk, and the vote actually determined by
yeas and nays ?
Mr. HowAEi). Well, under those conditions, of course, we would
have to comply with that provision.
Mr. Hicks. Just what do you refer to?
Mr. Miller. You might have to have a roll call, for instance, under
Article I, section 7, of the Constitution.
Mr. Hicks. But this system would record the vote.
Ml". Miller. I have heard that point raised about this very matter.
The Chairman. That raises this question: What constitutes a roll
call? Those who advocate that theory insist that it is not a roll call
unless the name of the individual has been pronounced aloud and he
has had an opportunity to reply, but I do not think that would be the
construction of the courts. A roll call is the ascertainment for the
record of how each individual desires his vote to be cast. It could
ver)'^ easily be handled under the rules, I suppose, by having the rules
properly amended.
Mr. Howard. There is another phase right here that I would hke to
mention to this committee, because I know you gentlemen are experi-
enced. There have been many bills passed by the House by viva voce
on which I would hke very much to have been recorded, in writing,
if necessary. I would like to have shown how I felt about the matters
and whether I was either in favor of or against them. I have been
retank'd in my zeal to be recorded for the simple reason that Mem-
bers want to economize in time. But under this system, if we
wanted to be recorded, so much time would not be taken. A man
would say to himself: This is an important measure and I would
hke to have my peo])le know exactly how I stand on the ]U"oposition.
And if it would only tak'j about live minutes most all of the Members
would be willing to submit to a record vote.
Ur.der this system, as it has been explained to me, not only can
the roll call be recorded in five minutes but the operator of this ma-
chine call take a pliotograpli of that roll call in ',V2 records, ard he
can make as many of them as he wants, and he can hand one to
eacb Member if he wants it. Mr. South, wlio has liad a great deal
of e.\|)erience in miking up the Congressional Record, mentioned to
me that a great saving could be make by these photographic records
of the vote, which are made in 32 seconds.
So far as the teclniical construction of this machine is concerned,
it is a womk-rful inachiiu!^
Mr. Hicks (internosing). In what way did Mr. South suggest that
a great saving conld be made?
Mr. How.MU). Mr. Sonth knows something about making uj) the
Record, and he mentioned something to me about it the other day,
and I would \h) ghid if you would let Mr. South make a statement, if
he (hisires to (h) so, showing the prart icability of this machine.
Tlie CnAiijMA.N. We will hear Mr. Soutii after you finish your
statement. Now, you fix the amount at $125,(100?
Mr. HowAuu. Yes, sir.
The Cmaikman. Have you any information as to what il will
probably cost <
8 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. llowAHi). Only what I have gotten from the gentleman who
owns the inacliine.
The CiLviR.MAN. Are you aware that Mr. Walsh, in presenting the
matter in the last Congress, suggested that the device could be put
in for Sl'5,()U() ?
Mr. Howard. I am not aware of that; no. That is an opinion
that I know nothing about, and I would rather have you hear from
those who know.
Mr. Miller. Is this the same device in which Mr. Walsh was
interested last year?
Mr. Howard. No; it is an entirely different one.
Mr. Miller. Is it patented?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Hicks. Mr. Walsh's resolution appears on page 3 of the hearing
of July 31, 1914, and the amount carried in the resolution is $20,000.
Iho Chairman. You authorize, by this resolution, the purchase
and installation of this device. You make that positive ?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
The Chairman. And you authorize a commission to be appointed
to make a selection of the device ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hicks. Of course if this device is adopted it means a change
in the seating arrangement of the House, and it will have to be deter-
mined whether desks shall be put in. There are a lot of Members
who have to have some place to do their writing, and if we could have
a room somewhere on the same floor as the House chamber, where
we could have little desks, it would be possible for us to carry on our
correspondence, and that would obviate the necessity of having so
much work done in the House Office BuUding.
Mr. Howard. If we could have some place adjacent to the Hall
of the House where we could have our secretaries meet with us and
where we could get out emergency matters, I think that would elimi-
nate the necessit}^ for desks on the floor of the House, except that
there would have to be desks in the Speaker's lobby, or tables, as
there are now, supplied with stationery and things of that sort for
our convenience.
Mr. Miller. That would necessitate a subofRce building, and we
have not the room for it in the Capitol Building.
Mr. Howard. No; it would not mean that, because I never go to
my office in the daytime. I have not been in my office a half dozen
times since Christmas. I have my business systematized. I dic-
tate all of my letters at night, tliey are written the next day, and I
sign them at night. There is no necessity for my going to my office.
I attend to my departmental work in the morning. But that is just
1 Member out of 100 and aU of them could and would not do that.
The Chairman. A great many of the Members simply employ a
stenographer here in Washington. They have them in their offices
during the day and could not expect them to perform services at
night. You use your secretary during the 24 hours at any time
you choose, but you could not expect a stenographer employed at
S50 or S60 a month to be on call at aU hours, and you could not
require such a stenographer to work at night.
Mr. Howard. That is true, and I admit the necessity of Members
using their offices very largely.
ELECTEICAL ANT) MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 9
The Chairman. Nearly every Member of Congress uses his office
and you are considerably of an exception, I think.
^Lr. Howard. Well, I have my stenographer live with me, and all
of that, you know, helps. That is about all, gentlemen, that I
have to say.
STATEMENT OF ME. B. L. BOBROFF. OF MILWAUKEE, WIS.
The Chairman. "What is your name?
Mr. BoBROFF. My name is B. L. Bobroff.
The Chairman. What is your business ?
Mr. Bobroff. Electrical and mechanical engineer.
The Chairman. "Where do you live ?
Mr. Bobroff. Milwaukee, Wis.
The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in that business ?
Mr. Bobroff. About 16 years: since 1900.
The Chairman. "Where did you obtain your education as an
electrician ?
Mr. Bobroff. My mechanical education I obtained in Russia,
the University of Russia, and ni}' electrical training I obtained in
this country. I attended the Lewis Institute at night for two years,
and for four years I attended a school of engineering in Milwaukee.
I have b?en working for IS months on special work with the engineer-
ing staff of the University of Madison, for the Bureau of Efficiency
and Economy, and I had charge of the water waste and electrolysis
survey in the city of Milwaukee. For the last four years I have been
engaged in my own business as an efficiency engineer.
The Chairman. Have you any people employed under you?
Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Robroff. Four; sometimes five or more.
The Chairman. Are you an American citizen ?
Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir; and I have always been since the expira-
tion of the first six months after I came over here.
The Chairman. ^Yhat do you mean by that?
Mr. Bobroff. I mean that I obtained my first naturalization and
citizenship papers six months after I came over here, and I have been
a citizen now for 1 1 years.
The Chaii{max. When did you obtain your final papers?
Mr. BfHiROFF. Four years afterwards.
The Chairman. Have you had any experience with voting devices
for legislative bodies?
Mr. Bobroff. I will say that I have made a study of the roll-call
question, and, not only have I made a study of it from the surface,
but I have made a thorougli study (»f the roll-call question. I did that
wlien 1 began to w(jrk on tliat pioblem of devising some mcnins and
ways whereby roll calls could be taken instantaneously instead of
consuming as much time as it is do'ng to-day in legislative bodies.
The CFrAiH>rA\. Have you installed a device anywhere for carrying
out your ideas (
Mr. Bobroff. At the present time the. Wisconsin State Legislature
has adopted it. It adopted it at the Inst session, and wo are installing
it now.
The Chairman. But it has not yot been tested thorouglily ?
10 ELECTRICAL AND MECILVNICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. B<>Bi50KF. No, sir; oxoo])( that I (lonionstrated it with several
units. There were 17 menihers of the joint finance connnittee and 11
members oT the judiciary committee, the committee which introduced,
the bill, and botli committees unanimously voted to adopt it. I will
say with reference to tiiis device, that if one unit works, 1,000 units
or an infinite number of units will work. They have no relationship
between one another, but they are just as you see them there. There-
fore, it does not make any dilVerence whether you liave one unit or a
huntlred units, or any number of units, they have got to work.
Mr. Miller. Well, how many will you use in the Wisconsin
Legislature^
Mr. BoBROFF. One hundred, exactly.
Mr. Hicks. Do you know of any other legislative bodies in which
any other devices are in use for roll-call purposes?
Mr. BoBROFF There is none in the United States.
]\Ir. IIiCKS. Of any manufacture ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; there is none.
The Chairman Are there any in use in any other countries ?
Mr. BoBROFF. I have been trying to find out about that. Some
people say that it is used in France, but I have never gotten to the
point where I could get any definite information. However, I doubt
it. It may be true, but this much I can say, that from the researches
I have made in England and Germany I have not found anything. As
a matter of fact, 1 have obtained patents in France. I have obtained
basic patents on that principle in France and in Germany and in
England, and if there had been any device along that line, they would
not have granted me that patent. Therefore, I assume that there is
none.
Mr. Hastings. When will the histallation be completed in Wis-
consin ?
Mr. BoBROFF. We have until next December, but the entire propo-
sition largely depei^Is upon our getting some material which we have
to obtain for that purpose. It has a good deal to do with the war.
The gentlemen owning the concern from which we n ust obtain the
material are very busy, and this takes a great deal of time. However,
I contemplate that the thing will be ready in 120 days.
Tlie CiiAimL\x. Suppose you explain in 3^our own way what you
will install on tlie floor of the House. Ex])lain in your own way how
you will install the device.
Mr. BoBROFF. Last year that resolution was introduced by Con-
gres.-min Walsh, and you will see from the hearings held at that
particular time that Mr. Walsh did not have anything definite with
reference to the device. He assumed that some device could be
gotten up and made to work. When I heard of that resolution I
had been working for quite a number of years upon a device which
had that very ])rinciple. I wrote on here, and it was suggested in
reply that I come on and show what I had. When I came here some
suggestions were made by Mr. Glark, Mr. Underwood, and some other
gentlemen. I think the chairman also n ado some suggestions as to
the purpose it would serve, and as to what would be de.nanded of me
if I should want to install it in a legislative body. I have incorporated
q}\ of it here, I think. I take as a basis the vacant panels adjacent to
the Speaker's desk. There is a vacant panel on the Democratic side
and a vacant panel on the Republican si(fe of the House. I have to
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 11
provide for 450 or 460 nan:!es. That space, I think, is about 10 feet
by 9 feet, or somethJng like it, and I have divided it into so many
units. Then I have designed a knter of that size [indicating], so
that you wouki be able to see it from every part of the Halk I have
put il up there. Mr. South helped me at that time to put it up in
order that we might see just what Avas the proper size. It worked
out most satisfactorily. It is just as you see it there, and if you
should have 435 or 450 names, you could put it in that space there.
Mr. Hicks. How much would that be — half of it ^
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; all of it. It is on either side. Then, I con-
template this, putting one board on the Democratic side of the House
and one board on the Republican side of the House, so they can all
see it. They would be duplicates, and whatever there is on one side
should be on the other side. Instantly everybody can see how each
individual Member has voted.
Mr. Howard. That means you would have 870 units?
Mr. BoBROFF. Substantially 900 units.
Mr. Howard. That, of course, would be one of the elements of
cost, because each part is a separate and distinct unit, with each
unit performing the same function.
Mr. Hicks. Does that bring it up high enough?
Mr. South. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBROFF. Some objections were made to the effect that you
have no (k'sks. I will explain that, because I want to go into eveiy
detail, so far as the installation is concerned, and to show you how
it will be possible to make it absolutely practical. It is not necessary
to have any desks. You can put this right on a chair, or next to a
chair, or at any convenient place. It would, of course, necessitate
the nund)ering of the chairs, but they are luimbered already. Each
individual Member would draw a seat number. Then there might
come up the question that they would have to go to their seats in
order to vote, but I contemplate, in order to make it still more con-
venient, to have other voting stations at convenient places hi the Hall.
There might be six or eight, and there is ample space in which to put
them. lor instance, you might locate some in the Hall next to the
cloakroom on th(> Democratic side and Republican side. If you
wanted to vote there you could take out your key, unlock it, press the
button, and vote.
Mr. ^IiLLF.H. "Would you provide there a voting place for every
Member of tiie House '.
Mr. BoHROFF. Tbere woukl be so many stations provided on the
Republican side, and likewise so many on the Democratic side,
Mr. Miller. That, of course, would increase the cost and necessi-
tate a place for each Member at thes(> sul)stations ?
Mr. lioiJHOFF. Yes, sir: but it would make it more coincnienl. It
is like electric liglit>. Wiieii electric ligiits came into use they were
more expensive than gasliglits, and gaslights were more expensive
than candtelight, but we would not want to go back to candlehi^ht.
This, of course, is a matt(M' of time s rving and convenience, and it
must actually be charged uj) t.o cost j)lus the actual cost, of insinua-
tion. Th(' cost, of course, increases as you increase the accommoda-
tions in this respect.
The Chairman. If you provide two voting |)Iaces, one on the desks
and one for use at other j)laces in tlieH.ilI, would the cost be twice as
much '{
12 ELECTKICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. BoHUOFF. No, sir. I figure it this way: If that system goes in
heri\ it ha^^ got to he the very l)est in America, and the very best that
can he mad >. That is my "id vi, and I know if I got this dsvice in
iiere, my record is made. " I would not have it anything else but the
very best, and I have figured it out so as to make the thing absolutely
complete in every detail.
Mr. Hicks. Vou have some method, 1 suppose, by winch the
Clerk can vote a Member's name?
Mr. BoBuoFF. No, sir.
Mr. Hjcks. Why not? Suppose Mr. Miller, Mr. Howard, and I
should come up here and forget our keys, and a roll call should take
place, could we not get the Clerk and ask him to vote for us ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; the Clerk would give you a duplicate key.
My. Hicks. A master key ?
Mr. BoBKOFF. No, sir; "a (hiph(;ate key. With a master key,
voting could be done from any station: but there would be no chance
for any unauthorized voting" with a duphcate key. If you have a
duplicate key, that will elimhiate every possible difficulty.
Mr. Hicks. What arrangement do you provide for keeping the
du]:)licate keys ?
Mr. BoBROFF. The Clerk has the duplicate keys.
Mr. Howard. He keeps the duplicate keys under lock and key ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Howard. He keeps that key and would give it to you when
necessary ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Miller. Do 3^ou care to tell us what arrangements were made
for the Wisconsin Legislature ? Do they have subvoting stations ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; they have d;sks there, and really they do
not give them any time on a call of the roll unless it is a call of the
house. Then they send for them. Otherwise they vote if they are
there and they have not made any provision for voting away from
the desks.
Mr. Miller. Do you have this arrangement (the recording panel)
in the hall there ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; this arrangement has been placed in the
center of the gallery, at a place where it was very convenient for us,
and it reduced the cost greatly.
Mr. Miller. Do you care to teU what was the cost of the installa-
tion in the Wisconsin Legislature ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. I will show you a little drawing I have
her(*.
The Chairman. Describe that so the reporter can make it clear in
the hearings.
Mr. BoBROFF. A board has })een placed in the center of the gaUery.
Tlie ornamental railhig has been cut out, and an ornamental bronze
frame has been substituted. You can see a part of the ornamental
work here [indicating]. We have nothing to do with any of the
changes whatsoever. The changes in the gallery, the changes in the
structure, the ornamental frame, the iron frame, and all of the neces-
sary reconstruction work in the building were done by the Wisconsin
commission that has charge of the construction of the capitol
building. We put in our units in the right place for them, and we
get from them 811,600 for 100 units, $106 per unit. Now, we knew
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 13
whon we started on that job that we would not make an}^ money,
and the reason for domg that was simply to prove conclusivel;^ the
practicability of the device, as would be done in any other business
proposition. Tliat is the only reason why we are installing 100 units
there for SI 1 ,600. Any other State legislature of that size or number
would have to pay not less than .'?25,000. By adding up the cost of
the ornamental work, the reconstruction work, and everything else,
the cost there will amount to $16,000 or $17,000, or about $170 per
unit. That will be about the actual cost of installing the sj^stem
with 100 names. Here I contemplate that all the requirements,
and to do all the reconstruction work necessary", and to do all the
necessary ornamental work to beautify and make it in harmony with
the Chamber would be included m this $125,000.
Mi\ Miller. There would have to be some people here to take care
of it. Would we have to employ some electricians trained in the
workii\gs of this system ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; there are a great number of electricians
employed here. The device in itself is very durable, and it will re-
cjuire very little attention. Just to give you an idea of how little
attention it will require I will say that this machine you see before
you has made approximately 90,000 roll calls. Now, how much time
(lo you suppose it would require for Congress to take 90,000 roll calls ?
There would not be that many in 100 years, at least, or probably in
200 years. Take, for instance, the Sixty-second Congress, which was
the longest Congress so far as roll calls are concerned, and you will
see that that machine can do 200 years' work. I know positively
that it never went \\Tong. There is no question but that the main-
tenance part of it would be a very small matter annually.
The Chairman. Would it not be necessary to have a good practical
electrician to look after that device ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir.
Mr. SouTFi. There arc a half a dozen men in the building who could
do it.
Mr. BoBROFF. They have a good many men here, and I know they
are very caj)able. They are already here.
The Chairm.xx. Do you think that Mr. Woods's force is sufficiently
well posted in this kind of work to make any repairs that would bo
necessary to be made on this d<^vicc ?
Mr. BoBROFF. You could pick any man you want for that. You
could take a man without any electrical training, and let me have him
just one week arul 1 will make an expert of that man on that partic-
ular deviccv
Mr. 1Iastin<;s. Have you thought about the cost of changing the
names whciu the membcirship of the House changes?
Mr. BoBRoFF. Yes, sir; and I will show you how that is done.
Suppose, for instance, Mr. Fitzgerald is d<>feated; you simply tako
this out [in(hcii(iiig),<u-as(^ this nani(^ [indicatingi, and print the other
name on if. You would put th<^ same plates back in its proper pcsi-
tinn.
Mr. Sonii. And giv(! th(i lunv man his k(\y.
Mr. lioBiJoiF. Y(N,-sir; that is all there is to it.
Mr. Howard. The new man would come in and get that key?
Mr. BoBRDFF. Yes, sir.
14 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Tho CiiAiuMAX. Is it vour id >a to have tho list of names appear in
alphabetical order, or should they appoar in tho order of the States?
Mr. BoBHOFF. I would suggest that it would bo best to have them
appear bv States. -, n j- ^ • x '
Tno Chairman. Then, when the Member from the hrst district |
goes out, all that is nocessary is to take off the name "James T. ^
Llovd" and put in the name of his successor. ,
Ml-. BoiiROFF. Yes, sir; that is why I suggest it be arranged by
States. . • i_ X I
The Chairman. Is (here any further explanation you wish to \
make about it t j
Mr. Howard. Is this apparatus connected up now?
Mr. BoBROFF. I do not know whether it is or not. I doubt it; I |
did not ha V e time enough to test it out.
The Chairman. Is there any other further explanation you desire |
to make ? , . t • i. '
Mr. BoBROFF. One thing I want to say is this: I want to go into ,
the hearini; of last vear of Mr. Walsh for the reason that I want to j
pai It out to you a difference in the conditiors oxistirg at that time |
and now. They did not provide for anything specihc or definite, ;
a^^d the er.tire pr-.p:sition at that time was nothing but a guess. ,
When the chairman a&kod Mr. Walsh, "Your resolution does not i
spcci.ically prjside for anything at all?" Mi\ Walsh answered,
"i-o. sir." i^urther, when Mr. Ten Eyck stated that Mr. Walsh \
did not provide for making changes in votes, Mr. Walsh replied that
"This could be done and that it will hare to be done just as it is now, ■
and that there is not any electrical way by which it could be done, .;
and that the mistt k^s would ha.e to bc'corrected when it is taken off ;
the record." Txien Mi*. Ten Eyck pointed out at that time that Mr.
Walsh did not pro v ido in any way whereby mistakes could be detected i
and corrected by the Member; that under his outline each Member ;
would have four buttons to manipulate and many mistakes would ^
be sure to happen. All this I simply point out to pro v-e my contcn- '
tion that Mr. VValsh's statement as to the cost of instahing an dec- ,
trical voting system could not be taken authoritatively.
I am proving to you conclusively that my system of voting is i
absolutely complete in every d^'tail. It provid> s not only tho means j
of taking a roU call instantan(^ously but it also adds and records the
vote of overy member and shows just how he voted on a question; '
it also provides the means whereby a Member can correct his vote |
if he happens to change his mind, or if ho makes a mistake. This is
don> automatically; it is dou'^ just as soon as the Member touches |
the button which is provid' d for that purpose. I want to emphasize '
this particular ooint, because Mr. Walsh stated before your committee ;
that this cou.'d not be done. , I
Further, when a Member is voting he can sec from his voting place i
how he voted, and tho same vote wiU duplicate itself on a largo j
bo.ird adjacent to his nnme, where everyone else can see. In short, j
this system is provided with all tho means that practical legislation j
can demand, ,
Taking the statement of Mr. Underwood that this system of voting i
wouVl save at least SoO,000 a year in light, heat, telephone and tele-
graph s(^rviee, I might add that there are other important savings
which would be made by the means of this system, namely, the salary
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 15
ot tho ironthly emplovccs, and printing the roll calls, etc., which
would be greatly reduced. In other words, this system would pay
for itself in one year. Also the convenience to the Members must be
considered. Taking the Sixty-second Congress as a demonstration,
where 55 legislative days were spent in calling the roll, with this
system in existence 50 out of the 55 could have been saved, or it
wou^.d have been possible for you to adjourn two months sooner.
Therefore, as I sav, you can not take the conditions existing at the
time of Mr. Walsh's proscmtation of this matt'n- £s a l)i sis for this.
In the first place, Mr. Walsh, whon he introduced that resolution,
positively stated that he did not have anything definite, and he stated
on page 12 of this hearing, "If it is not a good thing you are going to
lose 820,000." That is what Mr. Walsh said. We might know the
exact cost or approximately the exact cost of our system with this
exception: We know that since last year material has increased in
cost from 100 to 500 per cent. In this case, however, we did not
multiply this price by four or five hundred per cent, but we wiU have
a very small margin of profit on that device.
Mr. MiLLETf. Of course, the question of price will come up in the
discussion of this matter. Suppose you reduce the number of units
to one having only one panel and no substations for voting. Would
that considerably change the price named in the Howard resolution?
Mr. BoBROFF. It would, and that is the reason I think the best way
to do it is to provide for all the accommodations necessary, and leave
it to a commission.
Mr. Miller. I want to know how much it would reduce the price.
Mr. BoBEOFF. Yes, sir; it would reduce it.
Ml'. MiLLKR. But you can not say off-hand how much?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; but it would reduce it very considerably.
Therefore. I tliink the best way to do would be to leave it to a com-
mission to decide. If the commission has had ample experience along
legislative lines, they can determine what is best, so far as actual
installation is concerned. I personally would submit three different
plans, and let them make their own choice about it.
Mr. Hicks. How nuicli space woidd you want for the 450 units?
Mr. BoBuoFF. Ninety scjuare feet would be ample room.
The Chairman. Can you say what material would go in to the
installation?
Mr. BoriioFF. Taking, the Wisconsin Legislature installation as a
basis, according to the way I figured it out, in order to make it right,
tliere would be in different sized wires approximately 70 miles or
al)out ?,()'.),(m) feet.
The CMAiit.\L\x. What kind of wire?
Mr. Bobroff. Different kinds of wire.
Tne Chaii'.max. How mucli of it would be copj)er wire?
Mr. P>(;Bi;()FF. AH of it wciuld he c()j)p(u- winv
Mr. South. And it would be insulated like this findicating].
The CiLMijMAN. All of it would be insulated?
Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir; and in conduils. All of that wiic would
be in conduits. Not a siiighi wire could be s(M'n.
The Cfiair.man. What cluinge has there been in the price of coj)j)er
recently '.
Mr. J'oBiiorF. I can not say what the change has been nu-ently
The CiLviijMA.N. W(dl, witiiin the last two years?
16 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
]^Ir. BoBKOFF. I should say that the price has doubled, at least, if
not more than duiblod.
The Chaiiolvn. Have there been any objections made to this
device'^ What objections have been urged to it j
^fr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any o])jections to it.
Mr. Miller. Was there any opposition to the adoption of the
device in the Wisconsin Legislature?
Ur. BoBROFF. The bill passed by a vote of 51 to 23, and each one of
the 23 voted against it simply because they had pledged themselves
not to make an\' new appropriations that year, and this was the only
new appropriation passed by the Wisconsin Legislature at that time.
That is the only reason they gave for voting against it that I know of.
The Chairman. Wliat I was trying to get at was to know the
answer to the objections that may have been urged against the device.
Mr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any objection. I think one
member told me that the voting was too fast now. I presume that
objection was that if they voted any faster they would flood t.he
country with legislation. Now, I am glad that I have the opportunity
to answer that question, and the answer is that as long as the legisla-
tive bodies are in session, they will have that long to pass legislation,
and the quicker they get through and adjourn, the less chance there
will be for passing legislation that may not be desirable. It will enable
them to get through quicker by this system.
Mr. Miller. Is it a corporation that owns the patent?
^Ii". BoBROFF. It is a corporation at the present time. Gentle-
men, I am taking the facts from this report, and I find it stated that it
consumes approximately 45 minutes to call the roll. Now, this de-
vice wiU enable you to take the roll call at any speed you may desu-e.
It enables you to take the roll caU at any speed that you may deter-
mine is the proper speed.
The Chairman. Suppose you wanted to take it in two minutes?
Mr. BoBROFF. You could take it in 34 seconds.
The Chairman. Then, how long would you wait before taking the
second roll call?
Mr. BoBROFF. Thirty-four seconds after the first vote. You can
make a permanent record there, and can see how the vote has been
recorded, and then take the second vote.
The Chairman. Do you think it would be possible to take 25 votes
in 75 minutes, one right after the other, and announce each vote ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; just as quick as they can talk; if they can
talk as fast as I can, they could.
Mr. :Miller. This takes a copy of the roll call, and you make from
it afterwards the copy for the records?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Miller. It registers at the Speaker's desk the result of the
vote?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yfs, sir; it registers the result of the vote at the
Speaker's desk. Then you an make a chf.nge in your vote. Sup-
pose, for instance, you vote aye on a question, and then change your
mind : nd w- nt to vote no. At the pn sent time you have to wait
until the roll call is taken before changing your vote, and then ask
permission to chm^e your vote. By means of this system, however,
you are indeperd nt of that. If you make a mistake, you can change
it from one column to the other. It does not make any record what-
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 17
soever until the vote is finall}' closed, ard then it makes the perma-
nent record showing how each individual Member voted. At the
present time, if you come in htlf a minute late, it is necessary for
you to wait mitiJ the next roll c; U, or if you come in too soonj you
have to wait until your name is reached; but by means of this system
it is possible for you or any individual Member to come in at any
time and press the button and vote. Then, when you have voted
you can go away.
The CiiAiRMAX. Suppose I come in and want to know, for mstance,
how Mr. Mann has voted i
Mr. BoBROFF. You can look at the board and see how he voted.
Ml-. Hicks. How do you change the number of the bill i
Mr. BoBROFF. The nmnber of the bill or resolution is permanent,
})Ut these figures [mdicating] are slidable. We have a duplicate set
of letters and numbers.
Mr. Hicks. You have a combmation of numbers?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. This is sunply a demonstration of it.
Tlie entire proposition is made up of such a combmation that 5'ou
can c^uickl}' change the numbers.
(Thereupon, the committee proceeded to the consideration of other
business, after which it adjourned.)
Committee on Accounts,
House of Representatives,
TJiursday, Hay 25, 1916.
The committee this day met, Hon. James T. Lloyd (chairman) pre-
siding.
Mr. Lloyd. The conmiittee will com.e to order. Mr. Garner, will
you please state to the committees your views with reference to a
voting device for the House of Representatives?
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN N. GARNER, A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS.
Mr. Garxer. Mr. Chairman, at your suggestion 1 came by this
morning to give the committee my views as to the wisdom of adopting
this system
The Chairman (interposing). Or a system?
Mr. Garner. Yes; a system similar to this; son^ething that will
facilitate the calling of the roll. I l)eli(sv<! this is the system which
has been on exhibition in th(s Ways and Means Committee room for
some time. I have gone there once or twice and liad this genth'man,
1 think, explain its workings to n^e. I do not know whether this is
th(i })est systcnn or not, but 1 do want to speak iust a word in l)chalf
of some system that will faeilitat<s getting record votes in the House.
Two policies, I think, should l)e paramont in adopting any rules of
th(^ House of I{epres<'ntatives or any nu'tliod by wliich to acconijilish
those two policies. One is th<' facilitation of liusiness and the otliei-
is giving tne minority an opportunity to be heard and to put the
majority on record whenever it is desired. Those two propositions,
4455^—10 2
/
18 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
it occurs to ino, almost solve the probloni of legislation, and this
system helps in both directions. 1 would not advocate this or any
other device to facilitate the transaction of business in the House
if it took away from ihv minority any right whatever that it now
has. But tliis device will not take away, from the minority either
an opportunity to be heai'd or an opj)ortunity to secure a record
vote. As a matter of fact, it will add to the opportunity of the
minority to secure a record vote on many things on which they
can not now secure such a vote, because it tak<'s too much time.
Mr. MiLLEH. Does that mean that tli(> rules miglit be changed so
that wo could get a record vote in the (\)mmitte(^ of the Whole?
Mr. Garner. That is a matter, of course, that will be worked out
later on. It was not my intention to (Uscuss that phase of it, but if
such a scheme could be worked out I would be mighty glad to see it
adopted, because I have b;H>n here long enough to see legislation put
on bills in the Committet> of the Whole that the majoi'ity of the House
was not in favor of, but no Record vote could l)e demanded. If you
could get a record vote in the Committee of the Whole you would add
one more feature that would be anything but detrimental and you
would accomplish something that is now detrimental in the consid-
eration of measures in the Committee of the Whole, to wit, keeping a
quorum.
Ml'. Park. Did I understand vou to sav vou would take out the
bells?
Mr. Garner. Yis; I would not give the Members an opportunity
to know when a roll was going to be called.
Mr. Park. I am not in favor of that.
Mr. Garner. I know you are not, but I am. I am in favor ot some
method wdiich will keej) Members on the floor of the House of Repre-
sentatives, and if those hells were taken out the opportunity to know
when there was a roll call would be taken away and the Members
would be compelled to stay there.
IVIr. Edwards. As a matter of fact, you could keep the bells in,
could you not ?
Mr. Garner. Oh, yes; but I do not want to discuss that feature
of it. I want to caU the attention of the committee to the advantage
of facihtating roU calls in the House, both to the majority and to the
minorit}^, and 1 do not want to discuss the matter from any other
standpoint. I have mentioned these other matters because some of
the gentlemen have suggested them. It ma}^ be said that such a
system would operate against the rights of the minority, but I do not
think that is so. The object of the majority is to facilitate the pas-
sage of bills and see to the carrying out of its program. The object
of the minorit}' is to criticize, if it deems proper, the majority's pro-
gram, and to get record votes on such measures as it deems advisable.
It occurs to me that this is advantageous to the majority in carrying
out its program arid it is advantageous to the minority in getting a
larger num>)er of record votes on any proposition it desires. I be-
lieve it is good both for the minority and for the majority to adopt
some system similar to this.
Mr. Miller. You say it would keep people on the floor more than
the present system docs ?
Mr. Garner. I do not mean that this particular system would; no.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 19
Mr. Miller. 1 mean, suppose a large number of the Members were
on the floor would it not be difficult to keep order? Would not
pandemonium reign as it does many times under the present system?
Ml-. Garner. Probabl}^ but this would not necessarily make any
change with reference to staying on the floor of the House, because
even with this system the bells would ring and Members would be
given an opportunity to come to the House from th(> Office Buihhng
the same as now.
Mr. Koxop. The Members would be allowed a certain length of
time to get to the House ?
Ml". Garner. Yes, sir. It could be tested in order to ascertain
how long it should take for the M(^mbers to come from the Office
Building to answer a roll call. This system is to facilitate the trans-
action of business on the floor of the House, and would in no degree,
as I see it, take away from th(^ minority its two paramount purposes,
to wit, the criticism of the majoritv and putting them on record with
reference to certain measures.
Mr. KoNOP. Do you think it would be a violation of the Constitu-
tion to adopt this ))lan ?
Ml'. Garner. I had not thought about that phase of it. but I do
not see just how it could.
Mr. KoNOP. WluM-c the Constitution ])r()\ ides for a yea-and-nay
vote
Mr. Garner (inter j)Osing). That would be registered.
Mr. KoNOP (continuing). It is contemplated that the name of each
Member shall b(^ called and that each Member shall answer yea or nay.
Mr. Garner. I can hardly think that would be the construction by
the Supreme Court. I imagine the Supreme Court would consider
the result, and if the journal showed it was a yea-and-nay vote, that
there were so many \cas and st) many nays, that the Supreme Court
would not go back of those votes to ascertain whether tfie Members
voted by answering to their names or by registering through a device
of this kind. 1 hardly think th(> Supreme Court would go ])ack of the
journal to ascertain Just whether a man's voice registei'cd his ^()te or
whether his thumb registered his vote. I had not thought about that
phase of it.
Mr. KoNOP. I do not think so cil her. and I just asked thai (|Uestit)n
to get your ojjinion about it.
Mr. Garner. I think that is ai)out all I wish to say. 1 came by
this morning at the suggestion of Mr. Lloyd t<> say what has occuiTcd
to my mind as the advantage of this system in facilitating ])usiness on
the j)art of the nuijority an(l giving the minority equal o))])ortunity to
be heard and a greater ()])j)ortinuty to put I he nnijority on rccoi'd
more often on inijtoiiani nirasnrcs.
The ChaiPv-Man. Mr. (iarrett has given this |)i(»|)osit ion a great
deal of attention and 1 am an.xious that he shall be heard.
STATEMENT OF HON. FINIS J, GARRETT, A REPRESENTA-
TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE.
Mr. Gakkki'i . Mi'. Chairman, some years ago I presented a resohi-
tion to provide for an investigation into the feasibility of installing
a mechanical device for voting, 'i'hat resolution was refern'd to tlui
Committee on Rules. The Conunittee on Knle^ ap|)oint(«d a sub-
committee that investigated the nnitler in (••miiect ion with the
20 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
n
meinbors of the Committee on Accounts. I think it reported favor-
ably. I believe it is very desirable that a system of this sort should
be adopted. Just what particular device should be adopted I do not
know. .Vny system that is adopted would be an experiment in the
begiiming atul it would have to be gradually worked out to final
perfection.
We are creatures of habit. Before the Office Building was con-
structed the constant attendance of Members in the Hou^e was much
larger than it has ever been since. Many have fallen into the habit of
staying in their offices until the bells ring and then coming across
to vote. That is not a desirable practice. The adoption of a system
of electric voting would, after it was practiced for a little while, shorten
the daily sessions of the House and Members would conform them-
selves to the practice. They would do their departmental work and
attend to their correspondence
Mr. Park (interposing). Will you permit a question right there?
Mr. Garrett. Certainly.
Mr. Park. How do you figure it would shorten the daily sessions
of the Plouse ? How can you figure that out ?
Mr. Garrett. It would do it because the necessity for it would
exist. We all have so much departmental work to do and we all
have so much correspondence to take care of. A device by which
Members could vote immediately would, I suppose, cut out at least
one-third of the time that is used in the consideration of measures
on the floor. It would be a revolutionary proceeding but it would
lead to good results. The gentleman from Delaware, Mr. Miller,
suggested a matter to Mr. Garner a few moments ago — that is,
whether it would, as I understood it, cut out teller votes.
Mr. Miller. No. Mr. Garner was saying that we might have
record votes on a greater number of measures and I asked him
whether there would be a change in the rules so that there could be
roll-call votes in Committee of the Whole, whether that might be
possible.
Mr. Garrett. Personally, I have not the slightest doubt but that
would be and should be the ultimate result.
Mr. Miller. Do you think that it is always desirable — to be per-
fectly frank about it — to have 200 or 300 Members on the floor when
we are considering a bill like the Oregon California Railroad bill
when there were only about 50 men directly interested on the floor
and a hundred or more Members waiting for a vote and, of course,
engaging in conversation, so that there would be a great deal of
confusion if more Members were present ?
Mr. Garrett. That is under the system of voting which we have
now. I think under a mechanical device voting system, where one
is expecting a vote every minute, one would find better order in the
House and would find that Members would be much more quiet.
The Chairman. Carrying out that thought, is it not true that we
had much better order under the old system, when we had a IFull at-
tendance, than we have now ?
Mr. Garrett. That was true before the House Office Building was
constructed and when Members were in almost constant attendance.
Mr. Reilly. Was not that true because of the fact that the Mem-
bers were attending to some business at their desks ?
ELECTRICAL AXD MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 21
Mr. Garrett. Perhaps that may he true-
Mr. Reilly. You do not think you could keep order if 435 Members
were in attendance all the time ?
Mr. Garrett. Well, I think so, when they went there for business.
Of course there would be times of passion and riot; that will always
occur, but as a rule I believe the order wouhl always be better with a
full attendance.
Mr. Miller. Wlien a point of no (juorum is made the Members are
assembling for some time, and when the doors are opened we go right
on with the bill that we were consiilering when the point of no quorum
was made, and j^ou know how difTicult it is for the chairman or Speaker
to get order for some minutes. Then wlien order is restored the Mem-
bers who are not directly interested in the nuatter under consideration
retire to the cloakrooms or go out into the hall, and only those who
are directly interested stay on the floor, possibl}' 25 or 50.
Mr. Garrett. You are talking about the present system, and that,
of course, is true, as we all know. But what I undertake to main-
tain is that the adoption of a mechanic^ voting device will change
the entire system.
Mr. Miller, Would it shorten the talk (
Mr. Garrett. And we will soon conform ourselves to that habit.
Mr. Miller. Do you think it would shorten debate and talk on
measures ?
Mr. Garrett. I do not know. Of course, a mechanical voting
device would not have anything to do "with the question of debate.
Mr. Miller. How would it change the system of debate ? Would
not the debates be just as long b(>tween roll calls and votes?
Mr. Garrett. I think it will result in tlie adoption of rules which
will not allow of that lapse of time.
Mr. Hastixcjs. Do you not thiidv that if we were to ado|>t this
voting device and all of the Members were compelled to stay on the
floor of the House, that there would always be some of us who would
object to granting unanimous consent for extended debate ? When
there are only 15 or 20 Members on the floor, on eitlier side of tlio
aisle, there is not so much objection to unanimous consent, whereas
if we were all on the floor of the House and we were required to
remain there you would always find some one who woidil object to
granting unanimous consent, and I think that would have a tendency
to cut down the length (jf I lie tlebates.
Mr. Garrett, Perhaps, but I think il |)robably would h.ive a
tendency to bring ai)ont more liberal (h'l)ale and more thoughtful
consi(h'ration ann attention. 1 think it would cause MenduMs to
give mcuc attention to <h'bate as it goes on. 1 <h» not think it would
necessarily affect the (luestion <»f (h'bate or the liuic of (h'bate, but
I do think, measuring it by hours and taking the session as a whole,
that the same business could !)<• (h»ne with probably more lilxMid debate
in twf)-tliirds the innuher of hours if some sort of pract ical mechanical
voting device were adopted.
Mr. KoNOP. On the (luestioii of order, if \\c were tn \(tte on this
jnachine do you not tinnk that every Meudx-r. knowing he was to
make a record vote, would i)r<tl))il)ly pay more attention t() what is
going on in the House?
Mr. Gaiujktt. \'ery (h'cKh-dly ^<».
Mr. KoNoi'. ,\iid I thirds that would nvsult in ha\ing Ix-tter older.
22 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. Gakkett. Decidedly so. I do not think there is any question
about the ability of somebody to get up a nieclianical device triat will
accomplish that end. Of coiuse, if such device is adopted the rules
will have to be so written as to conform to its use.
Mr. Edison, I think, in 1867 — as far l)ack as that — invented some
sort of electric voting (knace which, by the way, I think, is in use —
although possi})ly not his invention — in the French Parliament,
I am not sure, Imt T think there is a voting device used in the House in
New York State.
Mr. KoNOP. Such a device is being used in Wisconsin.
Mr. BoBROFF. They have no device in New York now but they
have such a device under consideration at the present time, because
I have taken up the matter with a few Members there.
Mr. Garrett. I had the impression that possibly New York had
adopted it some years ago, but I suppose I am mistaken.
Mr. Miller. I have observed that you, as chairman of the Com-
mittee of the Whole, have f> hard time to get oi'der even when there
arc a few members present. You have had considerable experience
as chairman of the Committee of the Whole, and I would like to ask
you whether you think you would be helped by having 300 or 400
Members on the floor and wliether vou would not have greater diffi-
cultj in keeping order ?
Mr. Garrett. I do not think numbers would hurt any. The more
attendance, as a rule, the better the order.
Mr. Miller. I know; but would we be the gainer by it ?
Mr. Garrett. You mean in the matter of keeping order ?
Mr. Miller. Yes. If a greater number of Members were compelled
to stay on the floor under this proposed system, can you not imagine
the great amount of talk that would be going on all the time among
the Members ?
Mr. Garrett. Yes; I can imagine that, and it does not take a
very vivid imagination to imagine what might go on. But my
thought about it, Mr. Miller, is that if the Members knew they were
going to have to vote say within five minutes or within 10 mintues
on even the question of closing debate, or on any one of the numerous
questions that arise, that there really would result better order. Of
course, that is a guess.
Mr. Miller. I am asking for your opinion because you have had
so much experience as chairman of the (committee of the Whole.
Mr. Garrett. As I stated hi the beginning, we are creatures of
habit, and we have habituated ourselves to the practices under the
present system of voting; when we have a new system we will habitu-
ate ourselves to that practice also. Is seems to me that it is very
desirable, and if I may venture this further statement, I think that
the adoption of this system would lead in the end, and very quickly ,^
to the abolishment of teller votes in Committee of the Whole and
that there would be record votes in the Committee of the Whole.
I thmk that is very desirable. The Senate of the United States does
not have any teller votes. Whenever they vote they go on record.
Mr. Reilly. What progress would you make if you had to stop
every little while and take a 10-mhiute record vote?
Mr. Garrett. You need not take a 10-minute record vote under
a mechanical voting device system; you can get it in two minutes or
less — at least I understand from electricians that such is possible.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 23
Mr. Reilly. If you are guino: to allow a coitaiu length of time for a
man to come over to the House to answer a roll call under this system
it seems to me you ought to give him the same right in Committee of
the Wliole.
Mr. Garrett. I want to state to you that if a satisfactorv electrical
voting system should l)e adopted jind I shoidd have anytliing to do
with the drafting of a rule to conft)rm to that system l would not
favor giving ten minutes to Memb(Ms to get there. The main thing
which I think can be accomplished by the adoption of an electric
voting system is the saving of time. If you arc going to give Mem-
bers time to get there I do not know but that the present pei-sonal
voice system might just as well remain as any other.
Mr. Reilly. You would always save from 20 to 35 minutes.
Mr. Garrett. But I do not tfiink that is so very important.
Mr. Lenroot. Even if you gave them 10 minutes in the House
there would be no occasion for giving them any time in the Committee
of the ^^^lole except the necessar\' time to vote.
Mr. Garrett. That is all, of course.
Mr. Reilly. But you would niak<> a record vot(>. and that would
take time (
Mr. Garrett. AVhcn a point of no quorum is made, of coui-se,
there is no way. and ought not to be any way, of getting around the
constitutioiud provision. You must wait, and ought to wait, until
a quorum is found; but I think that one of the rules that should bci
adopted in connection with an electrical voting device woidd be one
to provide that the fii"st vote shoidd be sliown nnd should i»pi>ear in
the Recoid, showing who was there on that first vote wlien the point
of no quorum was made.
The Chairman. Showing who was present ?
Mr. G.\RRETT. Yes, sir; and who was not present at the tinu^
That is a very rigid proposition. <>f coui-se. l)ut I thiid< it is a rule
that should be made.
The Chairman'. Is it not your opinion that one of the greatest
evils to-day is that we are not a deliberative body, and that esjiecially
when we ai"e in Connnitlee of thr \Vhole w«> vote as sontelxxly elses
votes? We rush in from our offices, and when 1 go in on tlie Jioor
I look ov(^r to see how Mr. Kitchin is going t() vote or somelxxly els(>
is going to vote, and Mr. Leiuoot will look to as(<'rlain how Mr.
Stafford is going to vote, Mr. Mann, or son;el)o(l\ <'lse. We simiily
vote in accordanc<^ with what seems to l)f tli(> pjirly alignnuMit.
That is a misfoi-tune. Congress ought to b<' n delil)erat iv*' Ixxly and
w<^ oui^ht to know wliN' we vote (»n every matter. 'IMle|•^^ is this mi.--
fortune at the pr<'s<>nt time, tlntt you are not vol mgyourconvict ions ;
you are not voting l)ecause of any knowjedgt' of llir iiuidrr lh,i( is
i)efor<^ tlie House.
Mr. (i.M'.iJKir. 'I'hat is in a measure (rue and, if I may s)i\ it, it is
almost unavoidal)le uikUm- pn'sent ])ractices. I do not s(>e l)ow you
can change that under our oreseiit system.
Mr. Leni{()OT. 'f'hat <<>n(lilion would be cbanged to a very large
extent if the .MendxMs were prc-i-nt him! beard tli<> discussion.
Mr. CiAUKETT. Preciselv. and my fonlention is lluil the adoption
of a mechanical voting device will cause Mendters to be present if the
rules are written in the right way to worU with sueh (h-vice. It wns
upon that theory thai I in(rodu<'ed the resolution sonw years ago. I
24 ELECTRICAL AND MF:CHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
did not follow it up closely. Mr. Walsh, of New Jersey, was very
much interested in it, and as he had more time to devote to it than I
had I turned the matter over to him, so far as the resolution was
concerned, but I have never lost interest in it. So far as the con-
stitutional question is concerned I do not think there is the slightest
trouble about that. I really believe that this committee would render
a great public service by the adoption and development of some
electrical voting device.
The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Garrett.
Mr. Lenroot, we will be very glad to hear from you about this device,
as I believe you have given it some consideration.
STATEMENT OF HON. lEVINE L. LENKOOT, A REPRESENTA-
TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Mr. Lexroot. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I
do not think I have anything to say other than to indorse everything
that ]Mj. Garrett has said. I think from every possible standpoint,
assuming that we have a successful device, it ought to be adopted.
Emphasizing w^hat Mr. Garrett has said, I believe it will tend to keep
Members on the floor, hear the discussions, and vote intelligently.
In addition to that it is going to be a great saving in time to Members,
assuming that we give them time to get over, when we are in the House,
from their offices. JS ow, it consumes at least a half hour for a Member
to wait for his opportunity to vote, and there is nothing done during
those 35 minutes except that particular roU call. It would tend to
keep Members on the floor, and if a record vote were provided in
Committee of the W^hole it would keep Members there, and instead
of being the body which we are so largely now, as you have said, Mr.
Chairman, we w^ould become more of a deliberative body and the
Members would be on the floor in Committee of the Whole. Instead
of flocking in to find out how the leader on their side votes Members
would hear the discussions and vote inteUigently upon the merits of
a measure to a much greater degree than they do to-day.
With reference to this particular device, I never met the gentleman
until the other day, when I went into the committee room of the
Committee on Ways and Means and saw this machine demonstrated.
I was perfectly amazed with what is accomplished by the machine.
In discussing the matter with him I suggested that the House of
Representatives woidd not, of course, want to buy an experiment,
but that they w^ould want a successful device. He stated that if
his device were accepted he would be willing to put up any bond
that was necessary in order to enable the House to satisfy itself of
the absolute success of the machine.
The Chairman. The resolution does not commit us to any par-
ticular machine.
Mr. Lenroot. No; I understand that, and I am speaking of any
machine that may be tried. Of course, we w^ould not want to spend
S40,000 or $50,000 on an experiment, and it seems to me we could
easily protect ourselves in that way, namely, install the machine
and dem(mstrate its absolute success before the Government spent
a shigle doUar on it. That, I think, should be the course which
should be pursued.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 25
Mr. Koxop. Do you not think it is a fact that if every Member
knew he was to be recorded on a proposition that it would have a
tendency to keep better ordei than we have now, even with a small
number present ?
Mr. Lenroot. I certainly do. As to the matter of order, it has
been my observation always that there is better order with 200 or
300 Members in the House following a discussion, because there is to
be a vote very shortly on the pro])(>sition under consideration, than
when there are only 50 Members in the House and no record vote
to be made.
I do not think 1 have anytliina' further to say, except to most
heartily indorse everything Mr. Garrett has said.
Tlie Chairman. Mr. Stafford, we will be ghul to hear from you.
STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM H. STAFFORD, A REPRESENT-
ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Ml'. Stafford. ^Ii*. Chairman and gentlemen, when this question
was first presented to the ('ongress a few years ago I refrained from
ex])ressing my position in advocacy of it because I realized that
there were some practical legislative questions that had to be con-
sidered before it could get, as I considered, the favorable indorsement
of the Members t)f the House.
With the House Office Building as an institution I think the Mem-
bers will always, uidess some question of moment is under consid-
eration, utilize tlieir offices for their individual work. However, I
think that with the inauguration of this system and by a provision in
the rules, wliich is entirely compatible with existing conditions, per-
mitting Members 10 minutes to get to the House after the first demand
for a roll call has been made, that you will save from 25 minutes to a
half hour in the time of the Mem])ers and in the time of the House.
A few of us remember when the House was only 356, then 391, and
now 435, and the present membership is likely to grow. With the
addition of Members more and more time will be consumed, as Mr.
Lenroot has pointed out, in waiting for our names to l)e called - a
Eure waste of time. If it were known that this, or a similar device,
ad been adopted, enabling the Mend)ers to have sufficient tinu^ to
come from their offices, you would save one-half liour of valuiil)lo
time to every indiNidual Nieiuher.
Mr. Abercro.mbih. On every roll call '.
Mr. Stafford. Yes. At the |)i<^s»'nt lime 1 (h) not wish to launch
into a discussion of the revision of the rules as far as tiu* Committee of
the Whole is concerned. Thai is not the (piestion before this com-
mittee.
The ('ll-MUMAN. We have, nolhing lo (hi witii that.
Mr. Staffoki). It is uol uj) to the Conuiiittee on liules. It is a
question whether or not we can a(h)pt any device which will save the
time of tii(^ 435 Membei-s without infringing upon the privileges and
rights of the majoril\. the niiiioiity. or the individual Menibei-s. 1
have thought over this a gical fh-al and 1 see that a ruh' couhl l)e
arh>pte(l aUowing 10 minutes a Hullici<'nt time — for a iMeml)er to
come from his office and register his v<ite by Ihis or some similar
device. 1 am acrpiainled with Iwo (»r three Meudiers who never conu^
to this House, hut who spr-nd all of their tinu- at their residetu-es.
26 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
"\i\nionevei' a roll call is ortlorcd they take their antes and come right
hero; they get here in time to answer on the second roll call, but of
com-se we should not consider their convenience, those isolated cases,
but we should consider the convenience of the greatest number of
Members and the practical condition of affairs, namely, the way the
Members do their work to-day in their ofiices, in connection with their
floor duties.
It is to be assumed, Mr. Chairman, that some practicable device,
which will be accurate, can register the will of the Members. I can
not see how the adoption of such a device will in any way infringe
upon the rights or privileges of the Members. It is accurate; it will
be permanent; it will register their votes and in full view of the House.
They wiU know exactly how they vote; there can not be any qiiestion
about it; there can not be any manipulation whereby it will be sub-
ject to abuse. It will be an accurate register of the vote.
Firrthermore, gentlemen, many times a record vote in the House
is refused because of the lateness of the session or because it is getting
near the hour of adjournment when our dinners are in jeopardy.
If we had this device we would know that we could take a vote in a
few minutes and that we coidd register for all time the opinions of the
majority and minority. I say to you in all frankness that I do not
think that the question of whether it wdl lead to a record vote in the
Committee of the Whole is involved. That is a matter for the Rides
Committee. We could have that to-day if we wanted it. That is a
matter for subsequent consideration. The only thing we want to
consider now is the practical question whether we are in favor of
saving a half hour of our time whenever there is a roU call and whether
we desire to cease wasting valuable time, time which we can utilize
to advantage in doing other work.
The Chairman. Is it not true that as a ride the roll must be called
twice ?
Mr. Stafford. Yes; the roll is always called twice. The whole
tendency of the rules of the House has been to do away with filibuster-
ing and dilatory tactics.
The Chairman. The Speaker is here, and I understand he desires
to get away.
STATEMENT OF HON. CHAMP CLARK, SPEAKER OF THE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Mr. Clark. AU I want to say about this device is that if it is
practicable I am in favor of it, provided it does not cost too much.
Somebody told me that in one of the long sessions we wasted two
whole months in calling the roll. I have no doubt in the world that
such a device would be a great time saver, but the price ought to be
reasonable.
STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM H. STAFFORD— Continued.
Mr. Stafford. I was about to say, in closing, that the whole
tendency of the rules of the House has been to prevent dilatory and
filibustering tactics. I can not see how we can infringe in any wise
upon th<' rights of the minority by the adoption of this system. The
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 27
minority should not claim the right of filibusterhig by having needless
roll calls. By the adoption of this system the regisferhig of the vote,
as I see it, will be expedited: there will be more frequent record votes,
the time of the Members will be saved and none of their privileges
will be invaded.
Mr. KoNOP. On the question of lilibustering, can vou point to any
one instance in the House of Re})resentatives where a filibuster
defeated a bill ?
Mr. Staffoed. Oh. yes.
Mr. Miller. The shipping bill.
Mr. KoNOP. That was in the Senate.
Mr. Stafford. I remember a filibuster inaugurated by Mr. Mann
in the closhig days of the Sixty-first Congress, when we started in on
the war claims proposition; the fili])uster started at 12 o'clock and
continued until 10 o'clock Friday: it began the next morning and
continued until the next Sunday afternoon, and I might add that
I was an humble participant in that great event.
Mr. Koxop. Filibusters may be effective on the 3d of March or
along toward the end of a session which must close under the Consti-
tution, but I think the instances are very few where a filibuster in the
House really accomplishes anything at this time.
Mr. Stafford. I quite agree with you; under the rules of the
House a filibuster is impracticable, because the Rules Committee,
backed by a majority of the House, can at any time bring in a ride
which will make tlie filibuster ineffective. As a matter of fact, we
are here for business, and we might as well face this one fact, that
with the legislation of Congress becoming greater and greater as the
years go on we must find some means whereby we can restrict time-
wasting methods and concentrate it on real legislation. As 1 look
forwarcl to the legislative history of the House I believe we are goin^
to be in session seven, eight, and nine months each 3'ear, and we should
try to so conserve the valuable time of the Members in the House as
to bring those sessions to as early a close as possible. We have plenty
of legislation to consider; the calendar is just fdled witli i)roposed
legislation, and I hope you gentleUKMi will favor some device which
will certainly save the time of the Mend)ers of the House on each
individual roll call at least one-half liour. 1 will not undertake to <;o
into the question of a record vote in the Committee of tiie Whole.
Tliat is another question entirely and one that is ulterior to tlie ques-
tion under consideration.
The Chairman. We are much obliged to 3M)m, Mr. Stafford.
STATEMENT OF HON, MICHAEL K. REILLY. A REPRESENTA-
TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Mr. Kkh.lv. 1 just want to say that I am Iicnrlily in f:i\(»r of the
adoption of som(^ mecluiiiical device tluit will eiiahle (lie House (o
spend more time in legislating and less time in calling the roll. 1
agree with Mr. Stafford that as to what effect the adoption of such
device will luive in Coniniiflee of th(^ Whole is aside from (his (|ues-
tion and has nothing to do witii this y)ro|)osilion al all.
The (/ii AIRMAN'. \ ou ar(^ exactly right about (hat, and I am glad
you have made that point.
4SiG5o
UNIVERSITY OF CALL ORNIA, LOS ANGELES
THE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY
This book is DUE on the last date stamped below
MAR 9 195U
OCT 2 1951 1
ofiri.l 1956
'JUL 2 1 200^1
UCLA LAW UBMm
Form Ij-9
iir>m -2, '43(5205)
»
'.TNIVfc^'SJ.rY Ot*«Ai JF< /,^.«,/^
JK
1447 U.S.Congress,
AjB Hous«»<k>HBnittee
1916 on accounts •-
Electrical and -
mechanical system of
imy
OCT Z \^\
JK
1447
A5
1916
I
Uiii
''outhern Region,
.-.^I^ibrarypaciJity