* 14-4-T T» ^A. ^^1 A = Ln ^^^^^^^B ^^1 5 cz ^^^1 = =^= J3 ^H = == 3 ^^^^^^^1 ^B :;;;:;;= o ^^H ^ ^ ^^H 5 ^ ^H 7 ^ =^- ^^H 6 s — s ^^^ 3 ^ : H "^ ^ — ^1 ■ • ^1 ^ J J ij^H ^ ^^ CONGRESS. HOUSE. COMMITTEE 01! ACCOUIITS. Electrical and mechanical system of voting =i)l GIFT OF Mrs. ^-^elen Groff ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS First Session ON H. RES. 223 A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE AND INSTAL- LATION OF AN ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WAHHINGTON GOVKRNMJCN'l' IMtlNTINO OPPIOE lb 10 • s • • • ELECTRICAL X^J) MECHAxXICAL SYSTEM OF VOTIKG. Committee on Accounts, House of Eepresentatives, Monday, May 15, 1916. The committee this day met, Hod. James T. Lloyd (chairman) presiding. ?i-^ The Chairman. We ha\ e met this morr.ing for the purpose of N^having a h'^irh^g on House resolution ^ o. 223, introduced by Mr. 'K>Howard. Mr. Howard is here and we will be glad to hear from him. Statement of hon. william s. howaed, a representa- ^ TIVE in congress from the state of GEORGIA. y Mr. Howard. Mr. Chairman, this is a resolution introduced by me Vj at tlie suggestion of several of the officials of the House and many ■^Members of the House. The purpose of this legislation is to appoint -^^ a committee to investigate the advisability of purchasing a system \j by which the vote of the House can be recorded accurately an,d more promptly than it is under the present system. Durin.g a long session 5*^ of Congi-ess some mathematician, a Member of the House, figured \ the time consumed by Congress in eallii^g the roll during that session . of Con.gress, and it amounted, I thin.k, to 56 days of that long session. (-^ That was the time consumed in roll calls. There is another e \ il about \ our present system, and I think the Speaker and the chairman of ev(^ry prominent committee in the House, and all of the old M inbers > who has c been here for years, will agree tlnit under the ])resent sys- ^ tem the business of Congress being so great, and the work f allin.g upon >^ the shoulders of Members of Congress is reaching such proportions »]s that it is almost im]);)ssible for Members to de^()te the time to Irgis- V;;j lative matters tliat tliey should. Tlie close proximity of the House . Ofliee Buihhng makes "it so easy for any one Member at any time, ^ if he desires to do it, to tie U]) the dclibcration.s of tli'.> House for a period exten.ding from an hour to two liours by making jjoints of no L-: (piorum. ex I was hero over 20 years ago as private secretary to a Senator. At *\ thiif time they did not lia\(' any offieo ])uil(ling; the of[ic(^s w( n' scat- i tx'red all over tiie town, an.d when th*' Houses met at 11 o'cloclv or ^ 12 o'clock, as it does now, all of the Memlx^rs would gather in the House and they would stay on the door of the House during all of the [K scission, so that it was the rarest of occurnMiees for a noint of no ■j^ quorum to be made jiiid no nuorum found. I believe that if some h system ean be found ]»y whieli we can save the 40 mimiles \\hich it takes to make a roll call- I l)eli(>ve that is the time, is it not, Mr. South? Mr. South. From 40 to 45 minutes. 4[> rbSJS 4 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. Mr. Howard. Well, an aAcr}\i2;c of 40 minutes. I believe if some system ct)uld be found b}- wbicli that time could be saved it would be of great benefit in carrying on the business of the House. The Chairman. In order to protect the reading clerks, who dislike very much to have it go on record as consuming that much time, you will panlon me for saying that the reading clerks insist that they can call the roll in 25 minutes, but they must call the roll twice, and that accounts for it taking 40 minutes. ^Ir. Howard. Yes; I mean a complete roll call; I did not mean that tlie roll was called once; 1 mean it consumes that time under our system of calling the roll a second time. Then, another thing is this: Inaccuracies in roll calls are obliged to occur, and for this reason: While the roll is being called there is so much confusion on the floor of the House, and it is called with such rapidity, that the tally clerks, as a rule, can hardly hear the ' responses, and the clerk can hardly hear them. As you gentlemen know from your experience in Congress there is hardly a morning, after a roll call of the previous day, that one or more gentlemen do not get up to correct the roll call. That is not so much an evil, if you may term it an evil, but it is a waste of time. I do not believe it will be possible to have any more short sessions of Congress, because the business of this country has grown immensely in the last few years and governmental activities are increasing every day, but I do believe that we could lop off under this system, in a long session, not less than 30 dajs, and I am going to tell you why. Some electrical system, such as has been installed in the State Legislature of Wisconsin, and such as is presented to the Members here for their personal observation by the gentleman who has this electrical device here, will not only save at least 30 minutes on each roll call, but I believe it will have a tendency to keep Members on the floor of the House, and keep them on the floor from the time the House meets until it adjourns. And there is where we lose our time. Mr. Hicks. You propose to economize in time by the use of this system and you think that will preclude Members from taking the time to come over to the House on each roll call ? Mr. Howard. Yes; that is it. For instance, I understand that under this device not only can the Members vote, but the vote being counted automatically by some system which js on the Speaker's desk, a little meter, will be known almost at once, the ayes and nays and those present. This system, as I understand it, contemplates each man having a key to vote with and nobody else can vote for him. It is perfectly accurate, and if a man wants to change his vote Mr. Hicks (interposing). You contemplate, then, doing away entirely with the necessity of a Member coming from the House Office Building to the House to vote, which will save at least four or five minutes ? Mr. Howard. Yes; absolutely. We could have a rule that, say, five minutes after the question has been put the ballot shall be closed. Mr. Hastings. That would have to be by rule of the House ? Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Of course, this system would not be worth a penny if wo were going to allow 40 or 50 minutes for Mem- bers to como in and record their votes. ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 5 ^fr. Miller. Last year experimonts, I understand, showed that 10 minutes should be the hmit. Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Mr. Walsh, of New Jersey, who is an electrician and who was a Member of the last House, made a thorough investigation of an electrical system. I believe he was an expert electrician, and Mi-. Walsh figured that at least 25 minutes on each roll call could be saved by this system. Now, so far as this matter is concerned, I have given, of course, but little study to it. The Chairman. Do you know an\i;hing about the cost of it ? Mr. Howard. I do not. Tlie CnAiRiL\x. Do you know anything about the different devices that have been suggested for use by the House ? Mr. Howard. The onl}- system that I know an3'thing about is the one which has been suggested to Members of the House by Mr. Bobn^ff. I believe that experiments with it have shown that it is absolutely efficient and accurate and that it is easily understood. I refer to the system which has been presented to Members of the House in the old Ways and Means Committee room by Mi-. Bobroff. Tlie Ciiairmax. You mean the system which is here to-day? Mr. Howard. Yes, sir; and that sytem, it occurs to me, would serve every purpose, and it would amount to a saving of days, if not weeks, during every session of Congress. Mr. HicKs. Do jou contemplate taking out the present seating arrangement and restoring the desks? Mr. Howard. I do not know what would be best to do under those circumstances. Mr. Hastings. Would not that be necessarv with this device that you have here ? Mr. Howard. Well, if Meml)ers felt that they had to do their own work while they were on the floor of the House, if they had to do a great amount of writing by virtue of staying right on the floor within the sound of the gong, then, of course, we would have to have some different system than now exists. The Cil\irmax. There are two reasons which account for the fact that we have no quorum. One is the fact that desks have been taken out of the House of Representatives, and the other fact is that we have electric bells. Mr. IIf)WAiU). Yes, sir. Tlie Chairman, l^rior to the time of the installation of the present seating system, when every man had his own desk and his own seat, we had nf) electric bells, and there was a quorum on every important occasiftn. The fpiestion of no quorum was seldom, if ever, laised, and there was no occasion to raise it, because there was a quorum present. Ml-. lb)WARD. That is ttiie. Tlie Chair.man. But getting back to the (jIIht thing, you realize, perhaps, as everybody else d(K's, that it would be almost impossible to change the present system so as to avoid using the (>l(>ctrie bells; we have got the electrie bells and people* are using tluMU, and I sup- pose it wouM be an imj)ossible thing to s( roll, ai'd we would accomplish practically nothing that day. I admit that sometimes the power of th(^ fihbuster is a very valuable adjunct, esi)ecially to the minority, and I am will- ing to admit that it would probably k>ej) a good many Members of the House from doing things during the sessions of the House that they are now doing, that is, in the way of ofhce work. But we gen- erally meet at 11 or 12 o'clock; that is the general rule during ordi- nary sessions of Congress. I do not k low a body of men with whom I have ever come in contact who are harder workers than Members of Congress — it is absolutely necessary for them to keep steadily at work or get irretrievably behind. The Chairman. What have you to say as to whether or not the system you suggest would preserve the rights of the minority at all times ? As you know, one of the rights of the minority is the right of filibuster. Mr. Howard. Yes; it is a right, in a sense, under parliamentary procedure, but at the same time it is a question whether that right is always exercised for the best interests of the country. Tne Chairman. We k low it is not, because a man who makes a point of order does it out of some pique. Mr. Howard. Precisely. The Chairman. It is not because of any public good that is to be served b}" it. Nearly every roll call that we have, every time a point of order is made, it is because some Member is a little bit piqued. Mr. Howard. It is to force a compromise, as a rule. Tlie Chairman. Yes. A man who wants to speak is not allowed to speak, and then he makes the House pay for it, and he can do it very readily. Mr. Howard. That is true. However, the question simply re- solves itself into this: That this committee present it to the House if they think it is worthy and say: Do we want to economize the time of Congress ? If we do, something of this sort should be adopted. Since the reapportionment was made the membership of the House has increased, as you know, and the number will continue to increase as the country grows; if I live my allotted time I expect to see 600 Members on the floor of the House. That being so, we have got to get away from tlie antiquated system of roll call ; we have got to have some system of recording the will of the House more rapidly than we have under the present system. There is no question about that, and it is a fact that now we can hardly attend, and we do not attend, to the small affairs of the Government as we should attend to them for the simple reason we have no time. ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 7 Mr. Miller. What do you say about the constitutional provision as to certain classes of resolutions and bills or veto messages, that there shall be a roll call by the clerk, and the vote actually determined by yeas and nays ? Mr. HowAEi). Well, under those conditions, of course, we would have to comply with that provision. Mr. Hicks. Just what do you refer to? Mr. Miller. You might have to have a roll call, for instance, under Article I, section 7, of the Constitution. Mr. Hicks. But this system would record the vote. Ml". Miller. I have heard that point raised about this very matter. The Chairman. That raises this question: What constitutes a roll call? Those who advocate that theory insist that it is not a roll call unless the name of the individual has been pronounced aloud and he has had an opportunity to reply, but I do not think that would be the construction of the courts. A roll call is the ascertainment for the record of how each individual desires his vote to be cast. It could ver)'^ easily be handled under the rules, I suppose, by having the rules properly amended. Mr. Howard. There is another phase right here that I would hke to mention to this committee, because I know you gentlemen are experi- enced. There have been many bills passed by the House by viva voce on which I would hke very much to have been recorded, in writing, if necessary. I would like to have shown how I felt about the matters and whether I was either in favor of or against them. I have been retank'd in my zeal to be recorded for the simple reason that Mem- bers want to economize in time. But under this system, if we wanted to be recorded, so much time would not be taken. A man would say to himself: This is an important measure and I would hke to have my peo])le know exactly how I stand on the ]U"oposition. And if it would only tak'j about live minutes most all of the Members would be willing to submit to a record vote. Ur.der this system, as it has been explained to me, not only can the roll call be recorded in five minutes but the operator of this ma- chine call take a pliotograpli of that roll call in ',V2 records, ard he can make as many of them as he wants, and he can hand one to eacb Member if he wants it. Mr. South, wlio has liad a great deal of e.\|)erience in miking up the Congressional Record, mentioned to me that a great saving could be make by these photographic records of the vote, which are made in 32 seconds. So far as the teclniical construction of this machine is concerned, it is a womk-rful inachiiu!^ Mr. Hicks (internosing). In what way did Mr. South suggest that a great saving conld be made? Mr. How.MU). Mr. Sonth knows something about making uj) the Record, and he mentioned something to me about it the other day, and I would \h) ghid if you would let Mr. South make a statement, if he (hisires to (h) so, showing the prart icability of this machine. Tlie CnAiijMA.N. We will hear Mr. Soutii after you finish your statement. Now, you fix the amount at $125,(100? Mr. HowAuu. Yes, sir. The Cmaikman. Have you any information as to what il will probably cost < 8 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. Mr. llowAHi). Only what I have gotten from the gentleman who owns the inacliine. The CiLviR.MAN. Are you aware that Mr. Walsh, in presenting the matter in the last Congress, suggested that the device could be put in for Sl'5,()U() ? Mr. Howard. I am not aware of that; no. That is an opinion that I know nothing about, and I would rather have you hear from those who know. Mr. Miller. Is this the same device in which Mr. Walsh was interested last year? Mr. Howard. No; it is an entirely different one. Mr. Miller. Is it patented? Mr. Howard. Yes. Mr. Hicks. Mr. Walsh's resolution appears on page 3 of the hearing of July 31, 1914, and the amount carried in the resolution is $20,000. Iho Chairman. You authorize, by this resolution, the purchase and installation of this device. You make that positive ? Mr. Howard. Yes. The Chairman. And you authorize a commission to be appointed to make a selection of the device ? Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Mr. Hicks. Of course if this device is adopted it means a change in the seating arrangement of the House, and it will have to be deter- mined whether desks shall be put in. There are a lot of Members who have to have some place to do their writing, and if we could have a room somewhere on the same floor as the House chamber, where we could have little desks, it would be possible for us to carry on our correspondence, and that would obviate the necessity of having so much work done in the House Office BuUding. Mr. Howard. If we could have some place adjacent to the Hall of the House where we could have our secretaries meet with us and where we could get out emergency matters, I think that would elimi- nate the necessit}^ for desks on the floor of the House, except that there would have to be desks in the Speaker's lobby, or tables, as there are now, supplied with stationery and things of that sort for our convenience. Mr. Miller. That would necessitate a subofRce building, and we have not the room for it in the Capitol Building. Mr. Howard. No; it would not mean that, because I never go to my office in the daytime. I have not been in my office a half dozen times since Christmas. I have my business systematized. I dic- tate all of my letters at night, tliey are written the next day, and I sign them at night. There is no necessity for my going to my office. I attend to my departmental work in the morning. But that is just 1 Member out of 100 and aU of them could and would not do that. The Chairman. A great many of the Members simply employ a stenographer here in Washington. They have them in their offices during the day and could not expect them to perform services at night. You use your secretary during the 24 hours at any time you choose, but you could not expect a stenographer employed at S50 or S60 a month to be on call at aU hours, and you could not require such a stenographer to work at night. Mr. Howard. That is true, and I admit the necessity of Members using their offices very largely. ELECTEICAL ANT) MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 9 The Chairman. Nearly every Member of Congress uses his office and you are considerably of an exception, I think. ^Lr. Howard. Well, I have my stenographer live with me, and all of that, you know, helps. That is about all, gentlemen, that I have to say. STATEMENT OF ME. B. L. BOBROFF. OF MILWAUKEE, WIS. The Chairman. "What is your name? Mr. BoBROFF. My name is B. L. Bobroff. The Chairman. What is your business ? Mr. Bobroff. Electrical and mechanical engineer. The Chairman. "Where do you live ? Mr. Bobroff. Milwaukee, Wis. The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in that business ? Mr. Bobroff. About 16 years: since 1900. The Chairman. "Where did you obtain your education as an electrician ? Mr. Bobroff. My mechanical education I obtained in Russia, the University of Russia, and ni}' electrical training I obtained in this country. I attended the Lewis Institute at night for two years, and for four years I attended a school of engineering in Milwaukee. I have b?en working for IS months on special work with the engineer- ing staff of the University of Madison, for the Bureau of Efficiency and Economy, and I had charge of the water waste and electrolysis survey in the city of Milwaukee. For the last four years I have been engaged in my own business as an efficiency engineer. The Chairman. Have you any people employed under you? Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many? Mr. Robroff. Four; sometimes five or more. The Chairman. Are you an American citizen ? Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir; and I have always been since the expira- tion of the first six months after I came over here. The Chairman. ^Yhat do you mean by that? Mr. Bobroff. I mean that I obtained my first naturalization and citizenship papers six months after I came over here, and I have been a citizen now for 1 1 years. The Chaii{max. When did you obtain your final papers? Mr. BfHiROFF. Four years afterwards. The Chairman. Have you had any experience with voting devices for legislative bodies? Mr. Bobroff. I will say that I have made a study of the roll-call question, and, not only have I made a study of it from the surface, but I have made a thorougli study (»f the roll-call question. I did that wlien 1 began to w(jrk on tliat pioblem of devising some mcnins and ways whereby roll calls could be taken instantaneously instead of consuming as much time as it is do'ng to-day in legislative bodies. The CFrAiH>rA\. Have you installed a device anywhere for carrying out your ideas ( Mr. Bobroff. At the present time the. Wisconsin State Legislature has adopted it. It adopted it at the Inst session, and wo are installing it now. The Chairman. But it has not yot been tested thorouglily ? 10 ELECTRICAL AND MECILVNICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. Mr. B<>Bi50KF. No, sir; oxoo])( that I (lonionstrated it with several units. There were 17 menihers of the joint finance connnittee and 11 members oT the judiciary committee, the committee which introduced, the bill, and botli committees unanimously voted to adopt it. I will say with reference to tiiis device, that if one unit works, 1,000 units or an infinite number of units will work. They have no relationship between one another, but they are just as you see them there. There- fore, it does not make any dilVerence whether you liave one unit or a huntlred units, or any number of units, they have got to work. Mr. Miller. Well, how many will you use in the Wisconsin Legislature^ Mr. BoBROFF. One hundred, exactly. Mr. Hicks. Do you know of any other legislative bodies in which any other devices are in use for roll-call purposes? Mr. BoBROFF There is none in the United States. ]\Ir. IIiCKS. Of any manufacture ? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; there is none. The Chairman Are there any in use in any other countries ? Mr. BoBROFF. I have been trying to find out about that. Some people say that it is used in France, but I have never gotten to the point where I could get any definite information. However, I doubt it. It may be true, but this much I can say, that from the researches I have made in England and Germany I have not found anything. As a matter of fact, 1 have obtained patents in France. I have obtained basic patents on that principle in France and in Germany and in England, and if there had been any device along that line, they would not have granted me that patent. Therefore, I assume that there is none. Mr. Hastings. When will the histallation be completed in Wis- consin ? Mr. BoBROFF. We have until next December, but the entire propo- sition largely depei^Is upon our getting some material which we have to obtain for that purpose. It has a good deal to do with the war. The gentlemen owning the concern from which we n ust obtain the material are very busy, and this takes a great deal of time. However, I contemplate that the thing will be ready in 120 days. Tlie CiiAimL\x. Suppose you explain in 3^our own way what you will install on tlie floor of the House. Ex])lain in your own way how you will install the device. Mr. BoBROFF. Last year that resolution was introduced by Con- gres.-min Walsh, and you will see from the hearings held at that particular time that Mr. Walsh did not have anything definite with reference to the device. He assumed that some device could be gotten up and made to work. When I heard of that resolution I had been working for quite a number of years upon a device which had that very ])rinciple. I wrote on here, and it was suggested in reply that I come on and show what I had. When I came here some suggestions were made by Mr. Glark, Mr. Underwood, and some other gentlemen. I think the chairman also n ado some suggestions as to the purpose it would serve, and as to what would be de.nanded of me if I should want to install it in a legislative body. I have incorporated q}\ of it here, I think. I take as a basis the vacant panels adjacent to the Speaker's desk. There is a vacant panel on the Democratic side and a vacant panel on the Republican si(fe of the House. I have to ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 11 provide for 450 or 460 nan:!es. That space, I think, is about 10 feet by 9 feet, or somethJng like it, and I have divided it into so many units. Then I have designed a knter of that size [indicating], so that you wouki be able to see it from every part of the Halk I have put il up there. Mr. South helped me at that time to put it up in order that we might see just what Avas the proper size. It worked out most satisfactorily. It is just as you see it there, and if you should have 435 or 450 names, you could put it in that space there. Mr. Hicks. How much would that be — half of it ^ Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; all of it. It is on either side. Then, I con- template this, putting one board on the Democratic side of the House and one board on the Republican side of the House, so they can all see it. They would be duplicates, and whatever there is on one side should be on the other side. Instantly everybody can see how each individual Member has voted. Mr. Howard. That means you would have 870 units? Mr. BoBROFF. Substantially 900 units. Mr. Howard. That, of course, would be one of the elements of cost, because each part is a separate and distinct unit, with each unit performing the same function. Mr. Hicks. Does that bring it up high enough? Mr. South. Yes, sir. Mr. BoBROFF. Some objections were made to the effect that you have no (k'sks. I will explain that, because I want to go into eveiy detail, so far as the installation is concerned, and to show you how it will be possible to make it absolutely practical. It is not necessary to have any desks. You can put this right on a chair, or next to a chair, or at any convenient place. It would, of course, necessitate the nund)ering of the chairs, but they are luimbered already. Each individual Member would draw a seat number. Then there might come up the question that they would have to go to their seats in order to vote, but I contemplate, in order to make it still more con- venient, to have other voting stations at convenient places hi the Hall. There might be six or eight, and there is ample space in which to put them. lor instance, you might locate some in the Hall next to the cloakroom on th(> Democratic side and Republican side. If you wanted to vote there you could take out your key, unlock it, press the button, and vote. Mr. ^IiLLF.H. "Would you provide there a voting place for every Member of tiie House '. Mr. BoHROFF. Tbere woukl be so many stations provided on the Republican side, and likewise so many on the Democratic side, Mr. Miller. That, of course, would increase the cost and necessi- tate a place for each Member at thes(> sul)stations ? Mr. lioiJHOFF. Yes, sir: but it would make it more coincnienl. It is like electric liglit>. Wiieii electric ligiits came into use they were more expensive than gasliglits, and gaslights were more expensive than candtelight, but we would not want to go back to candlehi^ht. This, of course, is a matt(M' of time s rving and convenience, and it must actually be charged uj) t.o cost j)lus the actual cost, of insinua- tion. Th(' cost, of course, increases as you increase the accommoda- tions in this respect. The Chairman. If you provide two voting |)Iaces, one on the desks and one for use at other j)laces in tlieH.ilI, would the cost be twice as much '{ 12 ELECTKICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. Mr. BoHUOFF. No, sir. I figure it this way: If that system goes in heri\ it ha^^ got to he the very l)est in America, and the very best that can he mad >. That is my "id vi, and I know if I got this dsvice in iiere, my record is made. " I would not have it anything else but the very best, and I have figured it out so as to make the thing absolutely complete in every detail. Mr. Hicks. Vou have some method, 1 suppose, by winch the Clerk can vote a Member's name? Mr. BoBuoFF. No, sir. Mr. Hjcks. Why not? Suppose Mr. Miller, Mr. Howard, and I should come up here and forget our keys, and a roll call should take place, could we not get the Clerk and ask him to vote for us ? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; the Clerk would give you a duplicate key. My. Hicks. A master key ? Mr. BoBKOFF. No, sir; "a (hiph(;ate key. With a master key, voting could be done from any station: but there would be no chance for any unauthorized voting" with a duphcate key. If you have a duplicate key, that will elimhiate every possible difficulty. Mr. Hicks. What arrangement do you provide for keeping the du]:)licate keys ? Mr. BoBROFF. The Clerk has the duplicate keys. Mr. Howard. He keeps the duplicate keys under lock and key ? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. Mr. Howard. He keeps that key and would give it to you when necessary ? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. Mr. Miller. Do 3^ou care to tell us what arrangements were made for the Wisconsin Legislature ? Do they have subvoting stations ? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; they have d;sks there, and really they do not give them any time on a call of the roll unless it is a call of the house. Then they send for them. Otherwise they vote if they are there and they have not made any provision for voting away from the desks. Mr. Miller. Do you have this arrangement (the recording panel) in the hall there ? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; this arrangement has been placed in the center of the gallery, at a place where it was very convenient for us, and it reduced the cost greatly. Mr. Miller. Do you care to teU what was the cost of the installa- tion in the Wisconsin Legislature ? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. I will show you a little drawing I have her(*. The Chairman. Describe that so the reporter can make it clear in the hearings. Mr. BoBROFF. A board has })een placed in the center of the gaUery. Tlie ornamental railhig has been cut out, and an ornamental bronze frame has been substituted. You can see a part of the ornamental work here [indicating]. We have nothing to do with any of the changes whatsoever. The changes in the gallery, the changes in the structure, the ornamental frame, the iron frame, and all of the neces- sary reconstruction work in the building were done by the Wisconsin commission that has charge of the construction of the capitol building. We put in our units in the right place for them, and we get from them 811,600 for 100 units, $106 per unit. Now, we knew ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 13 whon we started on that job that we would not make an}^ money, and the reason for domg that was simply to prove conclusivel;^ the practicability of the device, as would be done in any other business proposition. Tliat is the only reason why we are installing 100 units there for SI 1 ,600. Any other State legislature of that size or number would have to pay not less than .'?25,000. By adding up the cost of the ornamental work, the reconstruction work, and everything else, the cost there will amount to $16,000 or $17,000, or about $170 per unit. That will be about the actual cost of installing the sj^stem with 100 names. Here I contemplate that all the requirements, and to do all the reconstruction work necessary", and to do all the necessary ornamental work to beautify and make it in harmony with the Chamber would be included m this $125,000. Mi\ Miller. There would have to be some people here to take care of it. Would we have to employ some electricians trained in the workii\gs of this system ? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; there are a great number of electricians employed here. The device in itself is very durable, and it will re- cjuire very little attention. Just to give you an idea of how little attention it will require I will say that this machine you see before you has made approximately 90,000 roll calls. Now, how much time (lo you suppose it would require for Congress to take 90,000 roll calls ? There would not be that many in 100 years, at least, or probably in 200 years. Take, for instance, the Sixty-second Congress, which was the longest Congress so far as roll calls are concerned, and you will see that that machine can do 200 years' work. I know positively that it never went \\Tong. There is no question but that the main- tenance part of it would be a very small matter annually. The Chairman. Would it not be necessary to have a good practical electrician to look after that device ? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir. Mr. SouTFi. There arc a half a dozen men in the building who could do it. Mr. BoBROFF. They have a good many men here, and I know they are very caj)able. They are already here. The Chairm.xx. Do you think that Mr. Woods's force is sufficiently well posted in this kind of work to make any repairs that would bo necessary to be made on this d<^vicc ? Mr. BoBROFF. You could pick any man you want for that. You could take a man without any electrical training, and let me have him just one week arul 1 will make an expert of that man on that partic- ular deviccv Mr. 1Iastin<;s. Have you thought about the cost of changing the names whciu the membcirship of the House changes? Mr. BoBRoFF. Yes, sir; and I will show you how that is done. Suppose, for instance, Mr. Fitzgerald is d<>feated; you simply tako this out [in(hcii(iiig),a to have tho list of names appear in alphabetical order, or should they appoar in tho order of the States? Mr. BoBHOFF. I would suggest that it would bo best to have them appear bv States. -, n j- ^ • x ' Tno Chairman. Then, when the Member from the hrst district | goes out, all that is nocessary is to take off the name "James T. ^ Llovd" and put in the name of his successor. , Ml-. BoiiROFF. Yes, sir; that is why I suggest it be arranged by States. . • i_ X I The Chairman. Is (here any further explanation you wish to \ make about it t j Mr. Howard. Is this apparatus connected up now? Mr. BoBROFF. I do not know whether it is or not. I doubt it; I | did not ha V e time enough to test it out. The Chairman. Is there any other further explanation you desire | to make ? , . t • i. ' Mr. BoBROFF. One thing I want to say is this: I want to go into , the hearini; of last vear of Mr. Walsh for the reason that I want to j pai It out to you a difference in the conditiors oxistirg at that time | and now. They did not provide for anything specihc or definite, ; a^^d the er.tire pr-.p:sition at that time was nothing but a guess. , When the chairman a&kod Mr. Walsh, "Your resolution does not i spcci.ically prjside for anything at all?" Mi\ Walsh answered, "i-o. sir." i^urther, when Mr. Ten Eyck stated that Mr. Walsh \ did not provide for making changes in votes, Mr. Walsh replied that "This could be done and that it will hare to be done just as it is now, ■ and that there is not any electrical way by which it could be done, .; and that the mistt k^s would ha.e to bc'corrected when it is taken off ; the record." Txien Mi*. Ten Eyck pointed out at that time that Mr. Walsh did not pro v ido in any way whereby mistakes could be detected i and corrected by the Member; that under his outline each Member ; would have four buttons to manipulate and many mistakes would ^ be sure to happen. All this I simply point out to pro v-e my contcn- ' tion that Mr. VValsh's statement as to the cost of instahing an dec- , trical voting system could not be taken authoritatively. I am proving to you conclusively that my system of voting is i absolutely complete in every d^'tail. It provid> s not only tho means j of taking a roU call instantan(^ously but it also adds and records the vote of overy member and shows just how he voted on a question; ' it also provides the means whereby a Member can correct his vote | if he happens to change his mind, or if ho makes a mistake. This is don> automatically; it is dou'^ just as soon as the Member touches | the button which is provid' d for that purpose. I want to emphasize ' this particular ooint, because Mr. Walsh stated before your committee ; that this cou.'d not be done. , I Further, when a Member is voting he can sec from his voting place i how he voted, and tho same vote wiU duplicate itself on a largo j bo.ird adjacent to his nnme, where everyone else can see. In short, j this system is provided with all tho means that practical legislation j can demand, , Taking the statement of Mr. Underwood that this system of voting i wouVl save at least SoO,000 a year in light, heat, telephone and tele- graph s(^rviee, I might add that there are other important savings which would be made by the means of this system, namely, the salary ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 15 ot tho ironthly emplovccs, and printing the roll calls, etc., which would be greatly reduced. In other words, this system would pay for itself in one year. Also the convenience to the Members must be considered. Taking the Sixty-second Congress as a demonstration, where 55 legislative days were spent in calling the roll, with this system in existence 50 out of the 55 could have been saved, or it wou^.d have been possible for you to adjourn two months sooner. Therefore, as I sav, you can not take the conditions existing at the time of Mr. Walsh's proscmtation of this matt'n- £s a l)i sis for this. In the first place, Mr. Walsh, whon he introduced that resolution, positively stated that he did not have anything definite, and he stated on page 12 of this hearing, "If it is not a good thing you are going to lose 820,000." That is what Mr. Walsh said. We might know the exact cost or approximately the exact cost of our system with this exception: We know that since last year material has increased in cost from 100 to 500 per cent. In this case, however, we did not multiply this price by four or five hundred per cent, but we wiU have a very small margin of profit on that device. Mr. MiLLETf. Of course, the question of price will come up in the discussion of this matter. Suppose you reduce the number of units to one having only one panel and no substations for voting. Would that considerably change the price named in the Howard resolution? Mr. BoBROFF. It would, and that is the reason I think the best way to do it is to provide for all the accommodations necessary, and leave it to a commission. Mr. Miller. I want to know how much it would reduce the price. Mr. BoBEOFF. Yes, sir; it would reduce it. Ml'. MiLLKR. But you can not say off-hand how much? Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; but it would reduce it very considerably. Therefore. I tliink the best way to do would be to leave it to a com- mission to decide. If the commission has had ample experience along legislative lines, they can determine what is best, so far as actual installation is concerned. I personally would submit three different plans, and let them make their own choice about it. Mr. Hicks. How nuicli space woidd you want for the 450 units? Mr. BoBuoFF. Ninety scjuare feet would be ample room. The Chairman. Can you say what material would go in to the installation? Mr. BoriioFF. Taking, the Wisconsin Legislature installation as a basis, according to the way I figured it out, in order to make it right, tliere would be in different sized wires approximately 70 miles or al)out ?,()'.),(m) feet. The CMAiit.\L\x. What kind of wire? Mr. Bobroff. Different kinds of wire. Tne Chaii'.max. How mucli of it would be copj)er wire? Mr. P>(;Bi;()FF. AH of it wciuld he c()j)p(u- winv Mr. South. And it would be insulated like this findicating]. The CiLMijMAN. All of it would be insulated? Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir; and in conduils. All of that wiic would be in conduits. Not a siiighi wire could be s(M'n. The Cfiair.man. What cluinge has there been in the price of coj)j)er recently '. Mr. J'oBiiorF. I can not say what the change has been nu-ently The CiLviijMA.N. W(dl, witiiin the last two years? 16 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. ]^Ir. BoBKOFF. I should say that the price has doubled, at least, if not more than duiblod. The Chaiiolvn. Have there been any objections made to this device'^ What objections have been urged to it j ^fr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any o])jections to it. Mr. Miller. Was there any opposition to the adoption of the device in the Wisconsin Legislature? Ur. BoBROFF. The bill passed by a vote of 51 to 23, and each one of the 23 voted against it simply because they had pledged themselves not to make an\' new appropriations that year, and this was the only new appropriation passed by the Wisconsin Legislature at that time. That is the only reason they gave for voting against it that I know of. The Chairman. Wliat I was trying to get at was to know the answer to the objections that may have been urged against the device. Mr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any objection. I think one member told me that the voting was too fast now. I presume that objection was that if they voted any faster they would flood t.he country with legislation. Now, I am glad that I have the opportunity to answer that question, and the answer is that as long as the legisla- tive bodies are in session, they will have that long to pass legislation, and the quicker they get through and adjourn, the less chance there will be for passing legislation that may not be desirable. It will enable them to get through quicker by this system. Mr. Miller. Is it a corporation that owns the patent? ^Ii". BoBROFF. It is a corporation at the present time. Gentle- men, I am taking the facts from this report, and I find it stated that it consumes approximately 45 minutes to call the roll. Now, this de- vice wiU enable you to take the roll call at any speed you may desu-e. It enables you to take the roll caU at any speed that you may deter- mine is the proper speed. The Chairman. Suppose you wanted to take it in two minutes? Mr. BoBROFF. You could take it in 34 seconds. The Chairman. Then, how long would you wait before taking the second roll call? Mr. BoBROFF. Thirty-four seconds after the first vote. You can make a permanent record there, and can see how the vote has been recorded, and then take the second vote. The Chairman. Do you think it would be possible to take 25 votes in 75 minutes, one right after the other, and announce each vote ? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; just as quick as they can talk; if they can talk as fast as I can, they could. Mr. :Miller. This takes a copy of the roll call, and you make from it afterwards the copy for the records? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. Mr. Miller. It registers at the Speaker's desk the result of the vote? Mr. BoBROFF. Yfs, sir; it registers the result of the vote at the Speaker's desk. Then you an make a chf.nge in your vote. Sup- pose, for instance, you vote aye on a question, and then change your mind : nd w- nt to vote no. At the pn sent time you have to wait until the roll call is taken before changing your vote, and then ask permission to chm^e your vote. By means of this system, however, you are indeperd nt of that. If you make a mistake, you can change it from one column to the other. It does not make any record what- ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 17 soever until the vote is finall}' closed, ard then it makes the perma- nent record showing how each individual Member voted. At the present time, if you come in htlf a minute late, it is necessary for you to wait mitiJ the next roll c; U, or if you come in too soonj you have to wait until your name is reached; but by means of this system it is possible for you or any individual Member to come in at any time and press the button and vote. Then, when you have voted you can go away. The CiiAiRMAX. Suppose I come in and want to know, for mstance, how Mr. Mann has voted i Mr. BoBROFF. You can look at the board and see how he voted. Ml-. Hicks. How do you change the number of the bill i Mr. BoBROFF. The nmnber of the bill or resolution is permanent, })Ut these figures [mdicating] are slidable. We have a duplicate set of letters and numbers. Mr. Hicks. You have a combmation of numbers? Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. This is sunply a demonstration of it. Tlie entire proposition is made up of such a combmation that 5'ou can c^uickl}' change the numbers. (Thereupon, the committee proceeded to the consideration of other business, after which it adjourned.) Committee on Accounts, House of Representatives, TJiursday, Hay 25, 1916. The committee this day met, Hon. James T. Lloyd (chairman) pre- siding. Mr. Lloyd. The conmiittee will com.e to order. Mr. Garner, will you please state to the committees your views with reference to a voting device for the House of Representatives? STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN N. GARNER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS. Mr. Garxer. Mr. Chairman, at your suggestion 1 came by this morning to give the committee my views as to the wisdom of adopting this system The Chairman (interposing). Or a system? Mr. Garner. Yes; a system similar to this; son^ething that will facilitate the calling of the roll. I l)eli(sv rules miglit be changed so that wo could get a record vote in the (\)mmitte(^ of the Whole? Mr. Garner. That is a matter, of course, that will be worked out later on. It was not my intention to (Uscuss that phase of it, but if such a scheme could be worked out I would be mighty glad to see it adopted, because I have b;H>n here long enough to see legislation put on bills in the Committet> of the Whole that the majoi'ity of the House was not in favor of, but no Record vote could l)e demanded. If you could get a record vote in the Committee of the Whole you would add one more feature that would be anything but detrimental and you would accomplish something that is now detrimental in the consid- eration of measures in the Committee of the Whole, to wit, keeping a quorum. Ml'. Park. Did I understand vou to sav vou would take out the bells? Mr. Garner. Yis; I would not give the Members an opportunity to know when a roll was going to be called. Mr. Park. I am not in favor of that. Mr. Garner. I know you are not, but I am. I am in favor ot some method wdiich will keej) Members on the floor of the House of Repre- sentatives, and if those hells were taken out the opportunity to know when there was a roll call would be taken away and the Members would be compelled to stay there. IVIr. Edwards. As a matter of fact, you could keep the bells in, could you not ? Mr. Garner. Oh, yes; but I do not want to discuss that feature of it. I want to caU the attention of the committee to the advantage of facihtating roU calls in the House, both to the majority and to the minorit}^, and 1 do not want to discuss the matter from any other standpoint. I have mentioned these other matters because some of the gentlemen have suggested them. It ma}^ be said that such a system would operate against the rights of the minority, but I do not think that is so. The object of the majority is to facilitate the pas- sage of bills and see to the carrying out of its program. The object of the minorit}' is to criticize, if it deems proper, the majority's pro- gram, and to get record votes on such measures as it deems advisable. It occurs to me that this is advantageous to the majority in carrying out its program arid it is advantageous to the minority in getting a larger num>)er of record votes on any proposition it desires. I be- lieve it is good both for the minority and for the majority to adopt some system similar to this. Mr. Miller. You say it would keep people on the floor more than the present system docs ? Mr. Garner. I do not mean that this particular system would; no. ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 19 Mr. Miller. 1 mean, suppose a large number of the Members were on the floor would it not be difficult to keep order? Would not pandemonium reign as it does many times under the present system? Ml-. Garner. Probabl}^ but this would not necessarily make any change with reference to staying on the floor of the House, because even with this system the bells would ring and Members would be given an opportunity to come to the House from th(> Office Buihhng the same as now. Mr. Koxop. The Members would be allowed a certain length of time to get to the House ? Ml". Garner. Yes, sir. It could be tested in order to ascertain how long it should take for the M(^mbers to come from the Office Building to answer a roll call. This system is to facilitate the trans- action of business on the floor of the House, and would in no degree, as I see it, take away from th(^ minority its two paramount purposes, to wit, the criticism of the majoritv and putting them on record with reference to certain measures. Mr. KoNOP. Do you think it would be a violation of the Constitu- tion to adopt this ))lan ? Ml'. Garner. I had not thought about that phase of it. but I do not see just how it could. Mr. KoNOP. WluM-c the Constitution ])r()\ ides for a yea-and-nay vote Mr. Garner (inter j)Osing). That would be registered. Mr. KoNOP (continuing). It is contemplated that the name of each Member shall b(^ called and that each Member shall answer yea or nay. Mr. Garner. I can hardly think that would be the construction by the Supreme Court. I imagine the Supreme Court would consider the result, and if the journal showed it was a yea-and-nay vote, that there were so many \cas and st) many nays, that the Supreme Court would not go back of those votes to ascertain whether tfie Members voted by answering to their names or by registering through a device of this kind. 1 hardly think th(> Supreme Court would go ])ack of the journal to ascertain Just whether a man's voice registei'cd his ^()te or whether his thumb registered his vote. I had not thought about that phase of it. Mr. KoNOP. I do not think so cil her. and I just asked thai (|Uestit)n to get your ojjinion about it. Mr. Garner. I think that is ai)out all I wish to say. 1 came by this morning at the suggestion of Mr. Lloyd t<> say what has occuiTcd to my mind as the advantage of this system in facilitating ])usiness on the j)art of the nuijority an(l giving the minority equal o))])ortunity to be heard and a greater ()])j)ortinuty to put I he nnijority on rccoi'd more often on inijtoiiani nirasnrcs. The ChaiPv-Man. Mr. (iarrett has given this |)i(»|)osit ion a great deal of attention and 1 am an.xious that he shall be heard. STATEMENT OF HON. FINIS J, GARRETT, A REPRESENTA- TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE. Mr. Gakkki'i . Mi'. Chairman, some years ago I presented a resohi- tion to provide for an investigation into the feasibility of installing a mechanical device for voting, 'i'hat resolution was refern'd to tlui Committee on Rules. The Conunittee on Knle^ ap|)oint(«d a sub- committee that investigated the nnitler in (••miiect ion with the 20 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. n meinbors of the Committee on Accounts. I think it reported favor- ably. I believe it is very desirable that a system of this sort should be adopted. Just what particular device should be adopted I do not know. .Vny system that is adopted would be an experiment in the begiiming atul it would have to be gradually worked out to final perfection. We are creatures of habit. Before the Office Building was con- structed the constant attendance of Members in the Hou^e was much larger than it has ever been since. Many have fallen into the habit of staying in their offices until the bells ring and then coming across to vote. That is not a desirable practice. The adoption of a system of electric voting would, after it was practiced for a little while, shorten the daily sessions of the House and Members would conform them- selves to the practice. They would do their departmental work and attend to their correspondence Mr. Park (interposing). Will you permit a question right there? Mr. Garrett. Certainly. Mr. Park. How do you figure it would shorten the daily sessions of the Plouse ? How can you figure that out ? Mr. Garrett. It would do it because the necessity for it would exist. We all have so much departmental work to do and we all have so much correspondence to take care of. A device by which Members could vote immediately would, I suppose, cut out at least one-third of the time that is used in the consideration of measures on the floor. It would be a revolutionary proceeding but it would lead to good results. The gentleman from Delaware, Mr. Miller, suggested a matter to Mr. Garner a few moments ago — that is, whether it would, as I understood it, cut out teller votes. Mr. Miller. No. Mr. Garner was saying that we might have record votes on a greater number of measures and I asked him whether there would be a change in the rules so that there could be roll-call votes in Committee of the Whole, whether that might be possible. Mr. Garrett. Personally, I have not the slightest doubt but that would be and should be the ultimate result. Mr. Miller. Do you think that it is always desirable — to be per- fectly frank about it — to have 200 or 300 Members on the floor when we are considering a bill like the Oregon California Railroad bill when there were only about 50 men directly interested on the floor and a hundred or more Members waiting for a vote and, of course, engaging in conversation, so that there would be a great deal of confusion if more Members were present ? Mr. Garrett. That is under the system of voting which we have now. I think under a mechanical device voting system, where one is expecting a vote every minute, one would find better order in the House and would find that Members would be much more quiet. The Chairman. Carrying out that thought, is it not true that we had much better order under the old system, when we had a IFull at- tendance, than we have now ? Mr. Garrett. That was true before the House Office Building was constructed and when Members were in almost constant attendance. Mr. Reilly. Was not that true because of the fact that the Mem- bers were attending to some business at their desks ? ELECTRICAL AXD MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 21 Mr. Garrett. Perhaps that may he true- Mr. Reilly. You do not think you could keep order if 435 Members were in attendance all the time ? Mr. Garrett. Well, I think so, when they went there for business. Of course there would be times of passion and riot; that will always occur, but as a rule I believe the order wouhl always be better with a full attendance. Mr. Miller. Wlien a point of no (juorum is made the Members are assembling for some time, and when the doors are opened we go right on with the bill that we were consiilering when the point of no quorum was made, and j^ou know how difTicult it is for the chairman or Speaker to get order for some minutes. Then wlien order is restored the Mem- bers who are not directly interested in the nuatter under consideration retire to the cloakrooms or go out into the hall, and only those who are directly interested stay on the floor, possibl}' 25 or 50. Mr. Garrett. You are talking about the present system, and that, of course, is true, as we all know. But what I undertake to main- tain is that the adoption of a mechanic^ voting device will change the entire system. Mr. Miller, Would it shorten the talk ( Mr. Garrett. And we will soon conform ourselves to that habit. Mr. Miller. Do you think it would shorten debate and talk on measures ? Mr. Garrett. I do not know. Of course, a mechanical voting device would not have anything to do "with the question of debate. Mr. Miller. How would it change the system of debate ? Would not the debates be just as long b(>tween roll calls and votes? Mr. Garrett. I think it will result in tlie adoption of rules which will not allow of that lapse of time. Mr. Hastixcjs. Do you not thiidv that if we were to ado|>t this voting device and all of the Members were compelled to stay on the floor of the House, that there would always be some of us who would object to granting unanimous consent for extended debate ? When there are only 15 or 20 Members on the floor, on eitlier side of tlio aisle, there is not so much objection to unanimous consent, whereas if we were all on the floor of the House and we were required to remain there you would always find some one who woidil object to granting unanimous consent, and I think that would have a tendency to cut down the length (jf I lie tlebates. Mr. Garrett, Perhaps, but I think il |)robably would h.ive a tendency to bring ai)ont more liberal (h'l)ale and more thoughtful consi(h'ration ann attention. 1 think it would cause MenduMs to give mcuc attention to hard time to get oi'der even when there arc a few members present. You have had considerable experience as chairman of the Committee of the Whole, and I would like to ask you whether you think you would be helped by having 300 or 400 Members on the floor and wliether vou would not have greater diffi- cultj in keeping order ? Mr. Garrett. I do not think numbers would hurt any. The more attendance, as a rule, the better the order. Mr. Miller. I know; but would we be the gainer by it ? Mr. Garrett. You mean in the matter of keeping order ? Mr. Miller. Yes. If a greater number of Members were compelled to stay on the floor under this proposed system, can you not imagine the great amount of talk that would be going on all the time among the Members ? Mr. Garrett. Yes; I can imagine that, and it does not take a very vivid imagination to imagine what might go on. But my thought about it, Mr. Miller, is that if the Members knew they were going to have to vote say within five minutes or within 10 mintues on even the question of closing debate, or on any one of the numerous questions that arise, that there really would result better order. Of course, that is a guess. Mr. Miller. I am asking for your opinion because you have had so much experience as chairman of the (committee of the Whole. Mr. Garrett. As I stated hi the beginning, we are creatures of habit, and we have habituated ourselves to the practices under the present system of voting; when we have a new system we will habitu- ate ourselves to that practice also. Is seems to me that it is very desirable, and if I may venture this further statement, I think that the adoption of this system would lead in the end, and very quickly ,^ to the abolishment of teller votes in Committee of the Whole and that there would be record votes in the Committee of the Whole. I thmk that is very desirable. The Senate of the United States does not have any teller votes. Whenever they vote they go on record. Mr. Reilly. What progress would you make if you had to stop every little while and take a 10-mhiute record vote? Mr. Garrett. You need not take a 10-minute record vote under a mechanical voting device system; you can get it in two minutes or less — at least I understand from electricians that such is possible. ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 23 Mr. Reilly. If you are guino: to allow a coitaiu length of time for a man to come over to the House to answer a roll call under this system it seems to me you ought to give him the same right in Committee of the Wliole. Mr. Garrett. I want to state to you that if a satisfactorv electrical voting system should l)e adopted jind I shoidd have anytliing to do with the drafting of a rule to conft)rm to that system l would not favor giving ten minutes to Memb(Ms to get there. The main thing which I think can be accomplished by the adoption of an electric voting system is the saving of time. If you arc going to give Mem- bers time to get there I do not know but that the present pei-sonal voice system might just as well remain as any other. Mr. Reilly. You would always save from 20 to 35 minutes. Mr. Garrett. But I do not tfiink that is so very important. Mr. Lenroot. Even if you gave them 10 minutes in the House there would be no occasion for giving them any time in the Committee of the ^^^lole except the necessar\' time to vote. Mr. Garrett. That is all, of course. Mr. Reilly. But you would niak<> a record vot(>. and that would take time ( Mr. Garrett. AVhcn a point of no quorum is made, of coui-se, there is no way. and ought not to be any way, of getting around the constitutioiud provision. You must wait, and ought to wait, until a quorum is found; but I think that one of the rules that should bci adopted in connection with an electrical voting device woidd be one to provide that the fii"st vote shoidd be sliown nnd should i»pi>ear in the Recoid, showing who was there on that first vote wlien the point of no quorum was made. The Chairman. Showing who was present ? Mr. G.\RRETT. Yes, sir; and who was not present at the tinu^ That is a very rigid proposition. <>f coui-se. l)ut I thiid< it is a rule that should be made. The Chairman'. Is it not your opinion that one of the greatest evils to-day is that we are not a deliberative body, and that esjiecially when we ai"e in Connnitlee of thr \Vhole w«> vote as sontelxxly elses votes? We rush in from our offices, and when 1 go in on tlie Jioor I look ov(^r to see how Mr. Kitchin is going t() vote or somelxxly els(> is going to vote, and Mr. Leiuoot will look to as(<'rlain how Mr. Stafford is going to vote, Mr. Mann, or son;el)o(l\ <'lse. We simiily vote in accordanc<^ with what seems to l)f tli(> pjirly alignnuMit. That is a misfoi-tune. Congress ought to b<' n delil)erat iv*' Ixxly and w<^ oui^ht to know wliN' we vote (»n every matter. 'IMle|•^^ is this mi.-- fortune at the pr<'s<>nt time, tlntt you are not vol mgyourconvict ions ; you are not voting l)ecause of any knowjedgt' of llir iiuidrr lh,i( is i)efor<^ tlie House. Mr. (i.M'.iJKir. 'I'hat is in a measure (rue and, if I may s)i\ it, it is almost unavoidal)le uikUm- pn'sent ])ractices. I do not s(>e l)ow you can change that under our oreseiit system. Mr. Leni{()OT. 'f'hat <<>n(lilion would be cbanged to a very large extent if the .MendxMs were prc-i-nt him! beard tli<> discussion. Mr. CiAUKETT. Preciselv. and my fonlention is lluil the adoption of a mechanical voting device will cause Mendters to be present if the rules are written in the right way to worU with sueh (h-vice. It wns upon that theory thai I in(rodu<'ed the resolution sonw years ago. I 24 ELECTRICAL AND MF:CHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. did not follow it up closely. Mr. Walsh, of New Jersey, was very much interested in it, and as he had more time to devote to it than I had I turned the matter over to him, so far as the resolution was concerned, but I have never lost interest in it. So far as the con- stitutional question is concerned I do not think there is the slightest trouble about that. I really believe that this committee would render a great public service by the adoption and development of some electrical voting device. The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Garrett. Mr. Lenroot, we will be very glad to hear from you about this device, as I believe you have given it some consideration. STATEMENT OF HON. lEVINE L. LENKOOT, A REPRESENTA- TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. Mr. Lexroot. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I do not think I have anything to say other than to indorse everything that ]Mj. Garrett has said. I think from every possible standpoint, assuming that we have a successful device, it ought to be adopted. Emphasizing w^hat Mr. Garrett has said, I believe it will tend to keep Members on the floor, hear the discussions, and vote intelligently. In addition to that it is going to be a great saving in time to Members, assuming that we give them time to get over, when we are in the House, from their offices. JS ow, it consumes at least a half hour for a Member to wait for his opportunity to vote, and there is nothing done during those 35 minutes except that particular roU call. It would tend to keep Members on the floor, and if a record vote were provided in Committee of the W^hole it would keep Members there, and instead of being the body which we are so largely now, as you have said, Mr. Chairman, we w^ould become more of a deliberative body and the Members would be on the floor in Committee of the Whole. Instead of flocking in to find out how the leader on their side votes Members would hear the discussions and vote inteUigently upon the merits of a measure to a much greater degree than they do to-day. With reference to this particular device, I never met the gentleman until the other day, when I went into the committee room of the Committee on Ways and Means and saw this machine demonstrated. I was perfectly amazed with what is accomplished by the machine. In discussing the matter with him I suggested that the House of Representatives woidd not, of course, want to buy an experiment, but that they w^ould want a successful device. He stated that if his device were accepted he would be willing to put up any bond that was necessary in order to enable the House to satisfy itself of the absolute success of the machine. The Chairman. The resolution does not commit us to any par- ticular machine. Mr. Lenroot. No; I understand that, and I am speaking of any machine that may be tried. Of course, we w^ould not want to spend S40,000 or $50,000 on an experiment, and it seems to me we could easily protect ourselves in that way, namely, install the machine and dem(mstrate its absolute success before the Government spent a shigle doUar on it. That, I think, should be the course which should be pursued. ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 25 Mr. Koxop. Do you not think it is a fact that if every Member knew he was to be recorded on a proposition that it would have a tendency to keep better ordei than we have now, even with a small number present ? Mr. Lenroot. I certainly do. As to the matter of order, it has been my observation always that there is better order with 200 or 300 Members in the House following a discussion, because there is to be a vote very shortly on the pro])(>sition under consideration, than when there are only 50 Members in the House and no record vote to be made. I do not think 1 have anytliina' further to say, except to most heartily indorse everything Mr. Garrett has said. Tlie Chairman. Mr. Stafford, we will be ghul to hear from you. STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM H. STAFFORD, A REPRESENT- ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. Ml'. Stafford. ^Ii*. Chairman and gentlemen, when this question was first presented to the ('ongress a few years ago I refrained from ex])ressing my position in advocacy of it because I realized that there were some practical legislative questions that had to be con- sidered before it could get, as I considered, the favorable indorsement of the Members t)f the House. With the House Office Building as an institution I think the Mem- bers will always, uidess some question of moment is under consid- eration, utilize tlieir offices for their individual work. However, I think that with the inauguration of this system and by a provision in the rules, wliich is entirely compatible with existing conditions, per- mitting Members 10 minutes to get to the House after the first demand for a roll call has been made, that you will save from 25 minutes to a half hour in the time of the Mem])ers and in the time of the House. A few of us remember when the House was only 356, then 391, and now 435, and the present membership is likely to grow. With the addition of Members more and more time will be consumed, as Mr. Lenroot has pointed out, in waiting for our names to l)e called - a Eure waste of time. If it were known that this, or a similar device, ad been adopted, enabling the Mend)ers to have sufficient tinu^ to come from their offices, you would save one-half liour of valuiil)lo time to every indiNidual Nieiuher. Mr. Abercro.mbih. On every roll call '. Mr. Stafford. Yes. At the |)i<^s»'nt lime 1 (h) not wish to launch into a discussion of the revision of the rules as far as tiu* Committee of the Whole is concerned. Thai is not the (piestion before this com- mittee. The ('ll-MUMAN. We have, nolhing lo (hi witii that. Mr. Staffoki). It is uol uj) to the Conuiiittee on liules. It is a question whether or not we can a(h)pt any device which will save the time of tii(^ 435 Membei-s without infringing upon the privileges and rights of the majoril\. the niiiioiity. or the individual Menibei-s. 1 have thought over this a gical fh-al and 1 see that a ruh' couhl l)e arh>pte(l aUowing 10 minutes a Hullici<'nt time — for a iMeml)er to come from his office and register his vm -2, '43(5205) » '.TNIVfc^'SJ.rY Ot*«Ai JF< /,^.«,/^ JK 1447 U.S.Congress, AjB Hous«»HBnittee 1916 on accounts •- Electrical and - mechanical system of imy OCT Z \^\ JK 1447 A5 1916 I Uiii ''outhern Region, .-.^I^ibrarypaciJity