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The
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A Memorial to the Founder
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Business Administration Library
U/uveni/u ^/ Joali/ornta
Los Angeles
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The
Robert E. Gross
Collection
A Memorial to the Founder
of the
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Business Administration Library
Los Angeles
[CALDWELL, Sir James] Debates relative to the Affairs of Ireland; in V.
the Years I763 and 176't. Taken by a Military Officer. To which are
added, An Enquiry how far the Restrictions laid upon the Trade of
Ireland, by British Acts of Parliament, are a benefit or Disadvantage
to the British Dominions in general, and to England in particular, for
whose separate Advantage they were intended. With Extracts of such Parts
of the Statutes as lay the Trade of Ireland under those Restrictions.
London, 1766.
two volumes, contemporary polished calf, green lettering pieces. Key to
the speakers in the debates at end of vol.2. A fine set of the first
edition. ** Dedication addressed to William Pitt. "Very valuable for
the Enquiry into the Restrictions on the Trade of Ireland. Privately
printed and rare." - Higgs 3699; Kress 632I.
DEBATES
RELATIVE TO THE
Affairs of Ireland;
In the Years 1763 and 1764.
TAKEN BY
A MILITARY OFFICER.
Sit mihi fas audita loqiji. Vlrg,
What I have hearcLy 'permit me to relate^
To which are added,
An E N Q. U I R Y
How far the Restrictions laid upon the
Trade of Ireland, by Britijh Ads of
Parliament, are a Benefit or Difadvantage to
the Britijh Dominions in general, and to En-
gland in particular, for whofe feparate Advan-
tage they were intended.
WITH
Extrafts of fuch Parts of the Statutes as lay the Trade of
Ireland under thofe Reftridtions.
VOLUME I.
LONDON:
M.DCG.LXVI.
T O T H E
Right Honourable
WILLIAM P ITTy
THESE
DEBATES
Are Humbly Inscribed
WITH THE GREATEST
Veneration of his Abilities and Virtues
A S A N
Orator and Statesman
BY HIS
Moft Obliged,
and moft obedient
humble Servant^
J. c.
PREFACE.
IN the Beginning of the Winter of 1763,
when the ParUament was about to meet
for the firft Time after the Conclulion of a
long War, when the Cultivation of the Arts
of Peace had been recommended from the
Throne, and the Attention of the Legiflature
would be naturally turned upon the Redrefs
of Grievances, and the Eftablifhment of public
Oeconomy, I felt an Inclination to be pre-
fent at the Deliberations of fo auguft an Af-
fembly, at fo critical a Time, and on Subjedts
fo Interefting and Important.
I therefore attended in the Houfe of Com-
mons, from its firfl fitting till the Recefs at
Chrijimas^ without Intermiffion, except one
Day, when a Breach of Privilege was com-
plained of, by a Member whofe Letter had
been charged by an Officer of the Poft-Office,
being that Day confined by Indifpoiition : after
the Recefs, other Avocations rendered my
Attendance irregular.
A 3 During
11
PREFACE.
During this Time the great Queftlons con-
cerning the Grant of Penfions on the civil
Eftabhfliment, and the Sums neceffary for
the Military Eftablifhment in time of Peace,
were debated. A Debate alfo came on,
concerning an Addrefs to his Majefly on
the Peace, the Report of the Committee
appointed to enquire into the Infurr'edi-
ons in the North, the Refidence of the
Clergy, the Publication of a Libel, and feve-
ral Others, which were Objects of a very in-
terefted Curiofity.
By thefe Debates, carried on with the deep-
eft Penetration, the moft extenfive Know-
ledge, and the moft forcible Eloquence, I
was fo impreiled, that, after I had left the
Houfe, the Voice of the Speaker was ftill in
my Ears, and the Sentiments I had heard ex-
cluded all others from my Mind. I was
impelled, as it were, by an irrefiftable Im-
pulfc, to commit to Paper what was thus for-
cibly retained by my Memory, before it ftiould
be mixed with other Ideas, or in any degree
obliterated by them ; when I made the At-
tempt I found the Taik ftill eafier than I had
imagined, my Attention was more fixed, and
the
PREFACE. ill
the deliberate Recolledion which Writing
made neceflary, brought br'ck the Ideas in a
flow but regular Succeffion, and generally in
the very Words which had been ufed to ex-
prefs them.
I had, indeed, upon former Occafions, exn
perienced that my Memory was not unfaith-
ful with refped: to Sentiment, but that with
a mere Succeffion of Words, or Sounds, it
was not always to be trufl:ed. I could, very
early in my Life remember the Principles of
an Argument, and the Events of a Story, but
I found it difficult to retain mere Words,
when I was to learn a Language, or the Suc-
ceffion of mere Sounds, when I applied to
Mufick.
Why fome Perfons remember Words and
Sounds, who cannot remember Principles and
Events, in a regular Series,! fliall not here en-
quire ; but as, when we think, our Ideas oc-
cur to our own Minds in fome Terms that
would exprefs them to another ; fo when we
recolledl Ideas that have been communicated
to us under certain Terms, thofe Terms natu-
rally occur with the Ideas, rather than any
other, being already aflbciated with them.
A 4 This
iv PREFACE.
This feems to account for my having been
able to rccolltd: the Words, as well as the
Sentiments, of thofe whom I heard fpeak in
Parliament, without pofTeffing that mechani-
cal Kind of Memory which can retain Terms,
not as Symbols but as Sounds, and which
fometimcs difllnguiflies thofe who difcover
fcarce any other Faculty of the Mind; for
there have been Perfons, who, though they
could repeat a Dlfcourfe of confiderable length
delivered in a Language they did not und?r-
ftand, after ones hearing it, yet could not have
comprehended the meaning of it, if it had
been delivered in their mother Tongue. I do
not, however, pretend that I have always done
Juftice to the Speakers, either with refpedl
to Language or Sentiment, whatever is amifs,
therefore, in either, muft be imputed to me,
though the Honour of whatever is excellent
muft undoubtedly be theirs.
When I had fucceeded in recording thefe
Speeches, fo much to my own Satisfadion, I
could not help wifhing to communicate the
Pleafure I had received. I confidered, that
nothing could be a more interefting Object of
Curiofity than the Sentiments of thofe who
have been feledted by the Suffrages of their
Country
P Pv E F A C E. y
Country to conipofe the Supreme Council of
t'le Nation, with refpeft to. the Laws which
are there formed for its Government ; and
that it muft afford the higheffc Satisfaction to
every Individual to fee the Reafon and Foun-
dation of thofe A(5ls on which Property, Li-
berty, and Life depend.
I confidered alfo, that, except fome faint
and imperfed: Attempts in E/igi'a fid, this Service
had never vet been rendered to the Publick :
a Defire therefore of obtaining Honour to my-
felf, concurring with that of benefiting others,
both felf love and focial determined tv.Q to
make public what I colled:ed only for my
private Amufement and Satisfaction.
It is true, indeed, that the Subjeds debated,
in the Parliament of Ireland, are not of the
fame Importance with thofe of her fifter
Country, on which the Fate of aConftitution,
that is the Admiration and Envy of the World
depends, and which in fome Degree involve
the Interefts of all the States in Europe ; yet
they afford a fufficient Field for the Patriot
and the Orator, and they affect, not only this
Part of the Britijh Dominions, but have fome
relation to the whole.
The
vi PREFACE.
The Parliamentary Debates, however, of
this Country are interefling, not only on ac-
count of the Importance of the Subje(5ts, but
the Abilities of the Speakers. Our Houfe of
Commons confifls of Gentlemen who have
eminently diftinguiflied themfelves in every
learned and honourable Profeflion ; and, upon
this Occafion, I cannot but obferve, that there
is fcarce one Native of this Country in the
Parliament of England that is not a Speaker
of fome Diftindion. Let me add, that, in my
Travels through many Nations, during an ab-
fence of feven Years from my Country, I came
into no Kingdom where I did not find Na-
tives of /r^/^W, in every Profeflion, and al-
moft in every Art, who had been preferred to
eminent Stations merely by their Merit, hav-
ing entered the Country under all the Difud-
vantages of Aliens, without Money, and with-
out Friends.
I flatter myfelf that thefe Debates, notwith-
flanding the Injury they may havefuffered in
my Hands, will difcover Abilities intheSpeak-
erSjthat would do Honour to any Age and any
Nation ; and that, notwithftanding their diffe-
rent Situations and the different Circumftances
in
PREFACE. vii
in which the Bufincfs of Parliament is tran-
fad:ed, their Speeches will not fufFer by a
Comparifon even with thofe of the Senate of
Great Britam.
In Ireland, as I have obferved before, the
Debates are confined to Subjeds that princi-
pally relate to its interior Intereft : The Par-
liament aflembles but fix Months in a Revo-
lution of two Years; an indifpenfable atten-
dance on the Courts of Law prevents many
Members from being conftantly prefent, and
the whole Number is comparatively icw.
Thefe Circumftances confidered, the Spirit
of the Debates now offered to the Publick,
will do yet greater Honour to the Speakers,
both with refpedt to their Principles and their
Abilities ; and it may fafely be left to the
World to determine what a figure they would
make in an Affembly where their Eloquence
would be prompted by every Motive that can
influence the Human Mind, at the fame
Time that they would acquire all the auxili-
ary Powers of Habit, by long and frequent
opportunities of Exertion.
Upon
vHi PREFACE.
Upon the Whole I flatter myfelf that thefe
Debates will not be found wholly unworthy
either of the Subjetfls, or of the Speakers ; yet
as they were written entirely from. Memory,
where fome of the (lighter Traces may have
faded away,," I. hope thePublick will regard
th<:m in the fame Light as they would a capi-
tal Pidj re fome what injured, and here and
-there retouched by an inferior Hand, yet fo
as ner.rly to imitate the Colouring, and always
to preferve the Contour,
In this light I would' alfo fubmlt them to
the Gentlemen by whorii they were delivered,
und who I hope wd'll do me the Juftice to
believe that I have never wilfully deviated,
either from their Sentiments or Expreflions •:
This is all the MeritT claim, and all the At-
toncment I can make for fuch Imperfe(ftions
as they rhall difcover in the Work, except,
that I did not take any Notes, or procure any
Notes to be taken.
I muft alfo. In juftice to thefe Gentlemen,
dec'.are, that not a fingleSyllable of the follow-
ing Speeches has been (hewn to the Pg^/ort
fuppofed to have delivered it, nor have I h.id
the kaft Communication with any Member
^^ ^ -^ . con-
The P R E F A C E. ix
concerning them, either by Letter or Conver-
fation, immediately or by Proxy. The par-?"
ticular Interefl of Ircia?7d as a feparate Nation,
and its general Interefl: as Part of the BritiJJj
Dominions being frequently difcufTed in the
following Debates, and mention being made
of feveral Reflri<5i:ions laid upon the Trade of
Ireland by the Lav/s of Great-Britain^ an
Enquiry naturally rofe how far Great Britain
is benefited by fuch Reilridions. As the Sub-
jec^l of this Enquiry is of great Importance,
and has never yet been examined, it is hoped
that an Attempt to examine it will not bs
thought an improper Sequel to this Work, and
that fuch Defedls as may appear in it from
the Author's want of fufficient Knowledge
and Abilities for fo important an Undertak-
ing, will be fupplied by thofe who are equal
to the Tafk.
The prefent Situation of Ireland is fuch as
renders it abfolutely neceflliry that fome Per-
fons of the greateft Experience ^nd Abilities
fliould make it the Objed of their ferious and
moft mature Confideration, particularly as to
its Defence, when another War (hall break
out; its Government, withrefped to Popularity
and Refources; and, above all, its Trade in its
prefent
jc the P R E F A C E.
prefent and moft deplorable State, when tM
high Price of Land, and confequently of a'l
the NecefTaries of Life, is ftarving at leaiH
one half of the few and miferable Inhabitants
of the Country. Where hereditary Proper-
ty is fo unequally divided, Trade only carl
feed the Hungry and cloath the Naked : And
I hope it will not be thought Prefumption in
me to fay, that if a proper Attention is r^t
given to thefe Particulars foon, it will be too
late, and the Confequences will be fatal.
DEBATES
'D E B A T E S
Relative to the
Affairs of IRELAND.
TUESDAY, March ii, 1763.
FIRST DAY.
A Copy of the Lord Lieutenmifs Speech,
My Lords and Gentlemen^
IT 's with the utmoft Satisfadion that, in
Obedience to his Majefty's Commands, I
am novvto meet a Parliament which has al-
ready piven fo many and fuch very diftin-
guiOied Proofs of its Zeal and Unanimity in
the Support and Service of the Crown.
I h^ve it exprefly in Command fiom his
Majefty to declare to you his entire Approba-
tion of your paft Condud, and to aflure you
that the whole Courfe of your late Proceed-
ings
1 6 iDebafcs relative to the [Day I.
ings has filled his royal Mind with every Sen-
timent of Regard which can flow from a juft
and gracious Sovereign towards a dutiful and
a loyal People.
It is with particular Satisfadtion I commu-
nicate to you at the Opening of this Seffion of
Parliament thofe great and important Events
which have occurred fince your lad Meeting.
By the Conclufion of a general Peace, the
Tranquillity of every Part of Europe is per-
fectly re-eftabliflied ; his Majefty's Dominions
are enlarged ; the Commerce of his Subjeds
is extended ; and you are, at length, relieved
from thofe Burthens v/hich arc unavoidable
in the Progrefs even of the moft fuccefsful
^yar.
Interedcd, as you are, in the Happinefs of
fo excellent a Sovereign j and fenfible, as you
have ever been, of the incftimable publick
BlefTings which you have enjoyed under his
illuftrious Houfe ; you will receive with
Plcafure, the Information of the aufpicious
Birth of the Prince of Wales, and of the fur-
ther Encreafe of the Royal Family, by the
Birth of a fecond Prince : Events which pro-
miib
Day I.] Affairs of Ireland. 3
mife fuch an Addition to his Majefty's domes-
tic Felicity, and fuch a lafting Security to our
happy Conftitution,
Gentlemen of the Hoiife of Commo7is^
I have ordered the proper Officers to pre-
pare the feveral Accounts and Eftimates, that
they may be laid, in due Time, before you :
You will obferve, that although, from the Ex-
igencies of feveral extraordinary Services, the
Expences of the two preceding Years have
confiderably exceeded what was ufual in
Times of Peace ; yet they are fallen far fhort
of the Sums which were fo liberally voted in
the laft Seflion, a great Part of which ftill re-
mains unborrowed * : His Majefty having de-
termined to make Ufe of the Credit given to
his Government in no other Proportion than
as the Neceffity of his Service exactly required.
I conlider it as extremely fortunate, that I en-
ter upon the Government of this Kingdom at
a Time when the Situation of publick Affairs
* This Word having been cenfured by fome without
Poors as not a Denifon of our Language, it is not im-
proper to obferve, that un is a Privative or Negative
Particle, which is placed, almoft at Will, before Adjec-
tives and Adverbs, and has been placed before borrowed
both by Dryden and Locke.
B will
4 Debates relative to the [Day I.
will permit fo very conliderable a Diminution
of the public Expence, and when I am com-
manded by his Majefty to thank, you only for
your part Efforts, without again having Re-
courfe to the experienced Liberality of Parlia-
ment : I have nothing to afk but the Conti-
nuance of the Supplies for the Support of the
ordinary Eftablifliment, which it is hoped will
not exceed the Produce of the ordinary Re-
venue, and I recommend to you a proper At"
tention to the Reduction of the public Debt.
Mv Lords and Ge?itlemcn.
Not only my Duty, but my earneft good
Wifnes for the Profperity of Ir eland ^ oblige
me to take this Opportunity of mentionino-
to you the only unpleafing Circumftance
which has occurred fince my Entrance upon
this Government ^ the tumultuous Rifings of
the lower People, in Contempt of Laws and
of Magiftracy, and of every conftitutional
Subordination, mufl:, if not duly attended to,
be produdive of the moft fatal Confequences,
they are a Difgrace to a Country of Liberty j
they are ruinous to a Country of Commerce;
and muft be particularly fatal here, where the
leaft Check to the rifing Spirit of Liduftry is
fo
Day I.J Affairs of Ireland. 5
fo very fenfibly felt, and fo very difficult to be
retrieved ; no Means can ferve more effedu-
ally to prevent thefe Diforders for the future,
than the Encouragement of fuch Inflitutions
as tend to imprefs on the Minds of the lower
Order of People, early Habits of Induftry,
and true Principles of Religion : For this
Purpofe, your Proteftant Charter Schools were
eftabliflied, to which I therefore recommend
the Continuance of your Care, Encourage-
ment, and Support : Your Linen Manufac-
ture demands, and will reward every Infhance
of Public Attention j there is nothing which
can more properly excite your future Endea-
vours, and nothing has more fully anfwered
your former Expectations : This Manufacture
has been, at all Times, the fivourite Objecft
of Parliamentary Encouragement j and I
fhould be concerned that any National Ad-
vantage which has been cultivated under the
Adminiftration of my PredecefTors, fliould be
negledled under mine : Be afTured you cannot
take any Meafures which will be more grate-
ful to his Majefty ; or, which I fhall be more
follicitous to forward, than thofe which may
in any Refpe<5t, advance the growing Profpe-
rity of this very improveable Country : If,
therefore, any of your Manufactures may be
B 2 further
6 Delmtes relative to the [Day I,
further extended ; if any Thing can be done
towards exciting the Spirit, or, providing the
Means of Induftry : If any Improvements in
Agriculture can be produced, upon wife and
pradiicable Principles j and in every Thing
that tends to the Encouragement of Virtue,
or the promoting of true Religion, you will
have, towards the Attainment of thofe Ends^
not only my zealous Co-operation, but his
Majefly's fteady and willing Protection. I
come to this Government with the King's
cxprefs Commands, and my own very warm
Inclination to recommend and fupport fuch
Meafures : His Majefty has the firmeft Reli-
ance on your experienced Duty and Loyalty j
on your unbiafs'd Regard to the Public ; and
he doubts not that this Seffion of Parliament
will be carried on in a Manner fuitable to
your own Dignity, and to the Unanimity of
your pafl Proceedings.
If the moft inviolable Attachment to his
Majefty, and Zeal for his Service ; if a firm
Adherence to thofe Principles by which the
Proteftants of Ireland have ever been diflin-
guiilied, were Qualifications fufiicient for the
Difcharge of the high and arduous Trufl: com-
mitted to my Hands, I might infure to myfelf
an
Day I.] Affairs of Ireland. 7
an Adminlflration not unacceptable to Parlia-
ment : And I ftill flatter myfelf, that, as the
only Ends I have in Purfuit are the King's
Service and the Public Welfiire, I may obtain
the only Rewards I have in View^, his Majef-
ty's favourable Acceptance of my Services,
and your entire Approbation of my Condu(^t.
Mr /F— B — moved, that an humble Ad-
drefs (hould be prefented to his Majeily to
affure his Majefly that we fliall be always
ready to give him the mofl convincing Proofs
of our Loyalty and Zeal for the Support of
his Crown and Dignity. To exprefs our
warmeft Gratitude for the gracious Approba-
tion with which his Majefty is pleafed to ho-
nour our paft Condud: j and to aflure his Ma-
jefly that we fliall in the Courfe of our future
Proceedings, by our Perfeverance in the fame
Principles of Duty and Loyalty, endeavour to
defer ve the Continuance of his Majefly's royal
Favour and Protedlion. To return our moil
dutiful and mofb grateful Thanks to his Ma-
jefly for his paternal Care, in being gracioufly
pleafed, upon theRe-eftablifliment of a gene-
ral Peace, immediately to relieve his loyal and
faithful Subjects of this Kingdom from thofe
heavy Burdens which they chearfully bore,
B 3 during
8 Debates relative to the [Day f.
during the late fuccefsful War. To exprefs
the Happinefs we muft feel from every new
Acceffion to his Majefty's Dominions, and
Extenfion of the Commerce of his Subjeds.
To exprefs our moft unfeigned Joy, upon the
aufpicious Birth of a Prince of WaleSy and of
the further Addition to his Majefty's Royal
Houfe, by the Birth of a fecond Prince ;
Events, which, as they promife fo great an
Addition to his Majefty's domeftic Felicity,
and fuch a lafting Security to our happy Con-
ftitution, muft give the higheft Pleafure to a
People deeply intereftcd in the Happinefs of
fo excellent a Sovereign, and fo fully fenfible
of the ineftimable public Bleftings which they
have, without Interruption, enjoyed under his
Majefty's illuftrious Houfe. To acknowledge
it as a particular Inftance of his Majefty's
tender Concern for the Welfare of this King-
dom, that he has been gracioufly pleafed to
appoint a chief Governor to preiide over us,
of whofe approved Fidelity to his Majefty,
and fteady Attachment to his royal Houfe,
we are fully perfuaded, and of whofe Ho-
nour, Juftice, Integrity, and other eminent
Qualities, we have conceived the higheft O-
pinion. To exprefs our juft Senfe of his Ma-
]cfty"'s great Gocdnefs in having made ufe of
the
Da y I. ] Affairs in Ireland. 9
the Credit given to his Government in the laft
Seffion of Parhament, in no other Proportion
than as the Necellity of his Service exadly
required , and to aflure his Majefty that we
Ihall, with the greatefl Chearfulnefs, continue
the necefTary SuppHes for the Support of the
ordinary Eftabhrtiment, with a proper Atten-
tion to the Reduction of the pubhc Debt. To
allure his Majefty that we have feen, with the
greatefl Concern, the tumultuous Rilings of
the lower People, in Contempt of Laws, of
Magiftracy, and of every conilitutional Sub-
ordination, which, if not duly attended to,
muft be produdive of the mod: fatal Confe-
quences, and which, we are fully fenfible, are
difgraceful to a Country of Liberty, and rui-
nous to a Country of Commerce. That we
are convinced that no Means can ferve more
effedlually to prevent the like Diforders for
the future, than the Encouragement of fuch
Inflitutions as tend to imprefson the Minds of
the lower Order of People early Habits of In-
duftry, and true Principles of Religion 5 and for
this defirable Purpofe we fliall continue our
Care, Encouragement, and Support of the Pro-
teflant Charter Schools, and ihall have the ftrid-
efl Attention to every Method by which our
Linen Manufadure may be improved and ex-
B 4 tended.
lO Debates relative to the [Day I,
tended. To afTure his Majefty, that we rtiall
be actuated by the fame Principles of Duty
and Loyalty, by the fame unbiafled Regard
to the Public, which recommended our Con-
du6t in the laft Seffion of Parliament, to the
Approbation of the beft of Princes j and to
declare, that we confider the Continuance of
his Majefty's royal Protection as the fure and
J foiid Foundation of our Welfare and Profpe-
rity.
Mr Ba — 's Motion was feconded by Mr
C — C — , who expreffed himfelf to the fol-
lowing Effedl :
Mr. S ,
Although I am confcious that the honou-
rable Gentlemen who moved for the Addrefs,
has exprelTed the Sentiments of the Houfe in
general, in which my own are included, in a
mafterly and pathetic Manner, which makes
it impoffible to fpeak after him, on the fame
Subject, without great Difidvantage, yet the
Gratitude that I feel to the heft of Sovereigns
will not fuffer me to be filent ; and upon this
Occafion I had rather be diftinguidied by the
Warmth of my Heart, than by the Force of
my Underftanding, or the Elegance of my
Elocution.
Day L] Ajjairs of iRELAbJD. 1 1
Elocution. The truly paternal Attention
which his Majefty has flievvn to this loyal,
brave, and free Nation, ever fince his Acceffi-
on to the Throne, has infpired me with Sen-
timents too powerful to be lupprelTed ; and
the Declarations made, on the Behalf of his
Majefty, by the Lord Lieutenant from the
Throne, cannot fail to fill every Breaft in the
Kingdom with equal Gratitude and Joy j for
who is there that does not only know, but feel
his Intereft in that delightful Profpecft of
Tranquillity and Happinefs which thefe De-
clarations have thrown open before us ? What
can be more pleafing to a Nation, that has a
lively Senfe of the Bleffings it enjoys in the
full PoffefTion of its civil and religious Rites,
under the aufpicious Government of the i-1-
luftrious Family that now lits upon the
Throne, than to find that our moft amiable
and truly Britifi Prince has taken the firft
Opportunity of exprefling, in the flrongeft
Manner, his Approbation of the Condudl of
its Reprefentatives, his faithful Commons in
the lad Selfions, and of afiuring them, that
the Burden of thofe Taxes, which a juft War
made indifputably necelfary, (liall now be
lufpended. The Increafe of the Family of
fucJi a Sovereign cannot but be regarded as
an
12 Debates relative to the [Day I.
an earnefl, that thofe Bleffings, of which he
is the Fountain, fhall flow to us, and to our
Pofterity, in copious and perpetual Streams,
which neither Change, nor Time, fliall be able
to divert or exhauft.
But there is yet another Inftance of his
Majefty's moft gracious Attention to this
Nation, which, lam fure, 1 cannot mention
with greater Pleafure than it will be heard ;
he has fent over to us a Nobleman equally
diftinguiflied for his Abilities in Public, as
for his amiable Qualities in private Life 3 a
Nobleman, to whom. Nature and Fortune
have vied in Liberality, and, to whom Vir-
tue has vouchfafed ilill fuperior Endowments;
his Generofity and Benevolence are equal to
his PoflefTions, v/hich, in his Hands, are no
more than the Power of doing Good, intrud-
ed v/ith him, as the Delegate of Providence,
for the Beneht of Mankind ; but he does not
ftop even here, his Virtue is not only Genuine
but Splendid, his Liberality is heightened by
a Tafte and Magnificence, which have been
equalled by few, and excelled by none ; by
fuch a Difpofition, joined with fuch a For-
tune, he not only refledls Honour upon his
Country, but gives it the ftrongeft Pledge of
his
Day I.] ^J/'arrs of Ireland, 13
his Superiority to Temptation; and his invio-
lable Attachment to the Public Good ; for
what can influence him to betray his Truft,
whofe fupreme Delight is to fulfill it, or what
can feduce him to illicit Gain, who defpifes
illicit Pleafurcs, and whofe Fortune already
enables him to poifefs thofe which his Virtue
prompts him to defire. In Governors, in-
deed, of whatever denomination, a fuperio-
rity of Fortune feems to be a Requifite of
great Importance, for, without it, the very de-
lire of doing Good becomes fometimes a Snare
to doEvil J the mere willi of impotentBenevo-
lence,though it is a kind, is a painful Senfation,
and where there is not Ability to fulfill it, fre-
quently creates a Dependance pernicious in
its confequences, however fpecious in its in-
tention.
It is happy for me. Sir, and for the Public,
that I cannot be accufed of making my Court
by a fanciful Panegyric. The Truth of what
I have advanced is too well known, and
too generally acknowledged ; and his Excel-
lency has given us an earneft of his Talents
for the important Truft, that is devolved upon
him, by his Speech from the Throne, which
is now the Subjedl of our Confideration ; he
has
r J^M
n
1 4 Debates relative to the [D a y I .
has felecfted and recommended to us thofe
Objedts of National concern, that are indubi-
tably moft interefting to this Kingdom : He
has recommended the bringing the dehidcd
and unhappy People in the lower Clafs of
Life, who have been drawing Confufion upon
the State, and Mifery upon Themfelves, a'c
once to a Senle of their Intereft, and their
Duty, which are eternally and infeperably u-
nited ; as thefe Irregularities muft arife either
from erroneous Principles, or that licentiouf-
nefs which Idlenefs never fails to produce,
he has alfo recommended the Encouragement
and Support of the Proteflant Charter Schools,
and the Linen Manufadory ; and he has pro-
mifed, in the warmeft and moft emphatical
Terms, that he will heartily concur in effec-
ting the good and important Purpofes he re-
commends J as fuch are his Majelly's gracious
Difpofitions towards us, fuch is his Reprefen-
tative among us, and fuch are the Declara-
tions from the Throne, I moft earneftly fe-
cond the Motion for an Addrefs of Thanks to
his Majefty for the fame.
It was then refolved, Nem. Con. that an
humble Addrefs be prefented to his Majefty
to the Effcd already mentioned, and ordered
that
Day I.l ^A^ciirs 0/ Ireland. 15
that a Committee be appointed to draw it up,
and a Committee was appointed accord-
The R— t H- — ble Mr T- C— then
moved, that an humble Addrefs of Thanks be
prefented to his Excellency, the Lord Lieu-
tenant, for his moft excellent Speech this Day
to both Houfes of Parliament, and fpoke to
the following EfFed; :
Mr. S ,
After what has fo truly, and fo forcibly
been fiid in commendation of the Nobleman,
whom his Majefty, as a fignal Mark of his
paternal Care and Attention to his loyal and
faithful Subjedts of Ireland^ has appointed to
be Lord Lieutenant of this Kingdom, by the
honourable Gentleman who fpoke laft, the
Motion I have to make, that an humble Ad-
drefs of Thanks be prefented, for his moft ex-
cellent Speech, can be confidered only as a
neceffary Compliance with the Forms of the
Houfej fince I am confident that every one
who hears me, feels already thofe Sentiments
in his Heart, of which. Thanks, in the warm-
eft and ftrongeft Terms, are no more than
the
1 6 Debates relative to the [Day I.
the Expreffion : The Speech itfelf, though
one of the bell: I ever heard on the Hke Oc-
cafion, is fuch only as might be expecfted from
a Nobleman, fo diftinguiihed by every great
and good Quality that can endear the Man,
or adorn the Governour, fo fit to reprefent a
Prince, who is at once the Happinefs and the
Glory of his People, whofe Virtues are fuch
as convert every Wifli, however, luxuriant,
into a well-grounded Hope, and promife
reality and permanence to whatever Bleffings
Imagination can form j under fuch an Admi-
niftration, no exped:ations of Advantage with-
in the Verge of Poflibility arc romantic, for it
cannot be imagined that he, who has hither-
to been fo eminently diftinguiOied for Inte-
grity, Honour, and Munificence, will lofe any
Opportunity ' of " difplaying them with yet
brighter Luflre, and more extenfive Influence,
by the Power which he derives from delegat-
ed Royalty, and a Charafter equally exalted
and endearing, the fubftituttd Father of a
grateful People.
Mr. C • having thus introduced, and
made his Motion, was feconded by Mr. S
3f — L-.^ junior.
Upon
I
Day I.] Affairs of Ireland, 17
Upon which, it was refolved, Nem. Co??,
that an humble Addrefs of Thanks be prefent-
ed to his Excellency, the Lord Lieutenant, for
his mofh excellent Speech this Day to both
"Houfes of Parliament.
WEl)^
1 8 Debates relative to the [I^ay If,
WEDNESDAY, OSl, ii, 1763.
SECOND DAY,
THERE was a meeting of the Commit-
tee, appointed to draw up the Addrefs
to his Majefty, in the S 's Chamber,
when no Objed:ion was made to it, as it was
produced, except that it was propofed inftead
of the Words " congratulate * ivith his Majef-
* The original Reading was right, congratulate k both
an Active and a Neuter Verb, as an Adtive Verb, it fig-
nifies, io exprefs Joy for the good of another ; as a Neuter
Verb, it fignihes, to rejoice in participation for a com-mon
good, and is always ufed with the Prepofition with ; now
the Birth of the Prince being an Event not only bene*
ficial to the King, but to the People, the Word congratu-
late ihou\6 have been ufcd as a Neuter, not an Adtive
Verb, and by making it an Adive Verb, omitting the
Word tuith, half the Complement is taken away, for it
implies, that the Birth of a Prince is a good only to his
Parents like a common Child, whereas, by making the
Verb Neuter, and congratulating with the King, it im-
plies a good to the People ; Swift ufes the Exprcilion
eovguindatc zvith, in his Introdudtion to Polite Convcrfa-
tion : In Defence of the Objection, it was faid that con is
icith, but if this proves any thing, it proves too much,
for [(with, for this Reafon, fliould not be ufcd with con-
gratulate, neither Ibould it be ufed with condole or con-
cur.
Day II.] Affairs of Ireland. 19
ty," to infert " congratulate his Majefty,"
which was agreed to.
Mr. JV- B reported from the
Committee, appointed to draw up an Ad-
drefs to his Majefty, that they had drawn up
an Addrefs accordingly, which he read in his
Place, and after delivered in at the Table,
where the fame was read, and is as follows :
Copy of the ADDRESS.
" Moft Gracious Sovereigfi,
We your Majefty's moft Dutiful and Loyal
Subje(fts, the Commons of Irela?idy in Parlia-
ment affembled, firmly attached to your Ma-
jefty's Sacred Perfon, royal Family, and Go-
vernment, humbly beg Leave to aflure your
Majefty, that we fliall be always ready to give
your Majefty every convincing Proof of our
Loyalty and Zeal for the Support of your
Majefty's Crown and Dignity,
The Approbation with which your Majefty
has been graciouily pleafed to honour our
paft Condud, fills our Hearts with the warm-
eft Sentiments of Gratitude, and lays us under
the ftrongefl Obligation, to endeavour by a
C gon-
20 Debater relative to the [Day II,
conftant Perfeverance in the fame Principles
of Duty and Loyalty, to deferve the Continu-
ance of your Fvoyal Favour and Proted.ion.
We think it our indifpenfable Dnty, to re-
turn your Majefty our mofi: grateful and fin-
cere Acknowledgments for your paternal
Care, in being gracioufly pleafed, upon the
Re-eflabliiliment of a general Peace, imme-
diately to relieve your loyal and faithful Sub-
jcfts of this Kingdom, from thofe heavy Bur-
dens, vi^hich they chearfully. bore during the
Continuance of the late fuccefsful War j and
we humbly beg Leave to afllire your Majefly,
that we feel the greateft Happinefs, from
every new Accefiion to your Majeily's Do-
minions, and Extenfion of the Commerce of
your Subjeifts.
Permit us to congratulate your Majefly,
upon the aufpicious Birth of the Prince of
WaleSy and the further Addition to your Ma-
jcfty's Royal Ploufe by the Birth of a fecond
Prince j Events, which, as they promife fo
great an Addition to your Majefty's Domeftic
Felicity, and fuch a lafling Security to our
happy Conftitution, muft give the higheft
Pleafure to a People deeply interefted in the
Hap-i-
Day 11.] \Afmrs of IrelanbI 21
Happinefs of To excellent a Sovereign, and (o
fully fenlible of the incftimable public Bkf-
iings, which they have, without Interruption,
enjoyed, under your iiluflrious Houfe.
We acknov/ledge it, as a particular In fiance
of your Majefty's tender Concern for the
Welfare of this Kingdom, that you have been
gracioufly pleafed to appoint a chief Governor
to prefide over us, of whofe approved Fide-
lity to your Majefty, and fteady Attachment
to your Royal Houfe, we are fully perfuad-
ed J and of whofe Honour, Integrity, Juftice,
and other eminent Qualities, we Ijave con-
ceived the higheft Opinion.
We are mofl: gratefully afFeded with your
Majefly's Goodnefs, in having made Ufe of
the Credit given to your Government, in the
laft Seflion of Parliament, in no other Pro-
portion than as the Neceflity of your Service
exadtly required : And we fliall with the
jgreateft Chearfulnefs, continue the necelTary
Supplies, for the Support of your Majeily'ij
ordinary Eflablijhme7it, with a proper Atten-
.|ion to the Redudion of the public Debt.
C2 We
2 2 . Debates relative to the [Day II.
We have feen, with the deepeft Concern,
the tumultuous Rifings of the lower People,
in Contempt of Law, of Magiftracy, and of
every conftitutional Subordination, which, if
not duly attended to, muft be produftive of
the mod: fatal Confequences, and which, we
are fully fenfible, are difgraceful to a Country
of Liberty, and ruinous to a Country of Com-
merce.
We are convinced that no means can more
effecftually prevent the like Diforders for the
future, than the Encouragement of fuch In-
flitutions, as tend to imprefs on the Minds of
the lo'vver Order of People, early Habits of
Induftry, and true Principles of Religion ; and,
for this defirable Purpofe, we (hall continue
our Care, Encouragement, and Support of
the Proteftant Charter Schools; and fhail
liave the flridcft Attention to every Method,
by which our Linen Manufadure may be im-
proved and extended.
We beg Leave humbly to alfure your Ma-
jefty, that we fliall be adluated, in our future
Proceedings, by the fame Principles of Duty
and Loyalty, by the fame unbialTed Regard to
the
Day II.] Af airs of Ikelai^d. 23
the Public, that recommended our Condudl
in the laft Seffion of Parliament, to the Ap-
probation of the beft of Princes j and that we
fliall always conlider the Continuance of your
Majefty's Royal Protedion, as the fure and
folid Foundation of our Welflue and Profpe-
rity."
The fixth Paragraph, being read a fecond
Time, Mr E — S — P got up and faid,
that the Words ordinary Eftabli/ljmentj feem-
ed to include a Senfe which had intirely ef-
caped him in the Committee, and that he
muft now give fome Reafons why he thought
them improper j the Words he faid might
be taken to imply the Eftablifliments hither-
to granted, and would then include the Pen-
lions, which he never could confider as con-
ftitutionally neceflary to the Support of Go-
vernment, nor did he imagine it to be the
Senfe of the Houfe that they were fo ; as he
was therefore of Opinion that the Houfe did
not mean to declare their Acquiefcence in the
Continuation of the Penfions, and as theWords
ordinary Eflablifometit^ were fo far ambigu-
ous, as in the Opinion, of fome at leafl, to ex-
prefs fuch an Acquiefcence, he faid he thought
tliey fhould be changed for fome other, the
C 3 Senfe
^4 Debates relative to the [Day it,
fenfe of which was more definite and cer-
tain ; he faid that it was not the Bufinefs of
that Day to enter into a critical Dirquifition
concerning the Import of the Words he ex-
cepted to, nor was he juft then prepared ex-
actly to define them, but propofed, as an eafy
Expedient to remove all poiTible difference
in Conftrudion, that the Words ordinaij
Ejiablijhme?it, might be expunged, and tlie
Word, Government, inferted in their fteadj
which he moved accordingly.
He was anfwered by the R — t H ble
F—- A , v/ho faid, that the Words ordi-
nary EJirMiff^fnent^ were a Parliamentary Ex-
preffion, confirmed by long and uninterrupted
Ufe, and inferted in almofl every Addrefs that
had been picfented from that Houfe to the
Throne i that they had never been known
to ferve as a Foundation, for any Claim not
more explicitly admitted, and thatj therefore,
there was not the leaft Reafon to fufpccH: that
they would now be perverted to ferve any
fuch Purpofe ^ he obferved alfo. that if any
fuch Dcfign fliould be formed, it would never
fucceed, becaufe no Expreflion in an Addrefs
Was obligatory, or even fuppofed to be (o 5
Addreffcs being ccnfidered only as Things of
courfe,
Day JI.] ^fdirs of Ireland, 25
courfe, a general Expreffion of Duty, Loyalty,
and Attachment relative to the Speech from
the Throne; he added, that he was firmly
perfuaded his worthy Friend upon the Bench
l3ehind him, (Mr P — ) would be the firft Man
in the Houfe, to fliew a well-timed Spirit
of Oppofition againft any Perfon who fliould
claim a Right to infer an Acquiefcence of that
Houfe to any one Point, from an Expreffion
in an Addrefs ; as the Words in Queftion
therefore were juftified by inconteftible and
repeated Precedents, and as changing them
Vv'ould fhew an ill Grounded and ofFenfive
Diffidence, without anfwering any one good
Purpole, he thought they could not with
Propriety be removed for any other, efpe-
cially as his worthy Friend had declared that
this was not a proper Time to examine criti-
cally into their Meaning, and had candidly
confeiTed himfelf unable to affign it. If it
had not been for this Conceffion, he faid, he
ffiould have been tempted to have called
upon him for an Explanation, but as no fuch
Explanation was either given, or offi^red, and
as a Change of thefe Words would render the
Addrefs fingular, by departing from the
Words of the Speech from the Throne, which
it had been always the Prad:ice to adopt in
C 4 Ad-
26 Debates relafhe to the [Day 11.
AddrefTes from the Houfe, he declared him-
felf againft the Motion.
The P— S , and A G , faid,
that, notwithftanding, the Words in Queftion
were fupported by Precedent, and truly Par-
liamentary, yet that the Change propofed
was a Matter of fo little confequence, that
they did not think it neceflary to take up the
Time of the Iloufe in a Difpute about it, and
therefore agreed to the Alteration propofed.
The S G- , Mr J— G , then
got up, and fpoke as follows :
MrS ,
I do not get up to oppofe the Alteration
fuggefted by my worthy Friend, which, how-
ever, I fliould certainly do, if I had any of
thofe Sufpicions which he feems to entertain,
for if I thought that any Advantage would be
taken of a Conceflion o( this Houfe, in an
Addrefs, I fhould certainly oppofe the Infer-
tion of the Word Government, inftead of the
Words ordinnry 'Efiahlifiment, whicli, perhaps,
more effedlually than any other, preclude fuch
Advantage, at lead much more effedually than
the Word propofed to be fubflituted in their
ftead J
Day II.] ^^ffairs of Irelahj), 27
flead J as a feeming Diftrufl has induced him
to propofe the Alteration, fo, on the contrary,
nothing but the utmoft Confidence could in-
duce me to confent to it, for we differ diame-
trically, as to the Force of the two Expreffi-
ons. The Word Government, is furely liable
to a larger Conftruction than the Words or-
dijiary E/iabliJJjmeJit : The Words ordinary
Eftablijhme?it, if they have any Meaning, mufl:
certainly exclude fomething, whereas, the
Word Government admits all ; I would fub-
mit it to my worthy Friend himfelf, whether
Ordinary does not neceflarily exclude 'Extra-
ordinary, and, whether he does not think
many of the Sums granted laft Year come
under the latter Denomination, particularly,
thofe granted for carrying on the War : The
Words ordinary EflabliJJjme?it, therefore, if
they can be fuppofed to include all the indi-
vidual and fpecific Sums granted laft Year,
muft be fuppofed to include what is not Or-
dinary, or elfe the Expences of a War muft
be fuppofed to come under that Denomina-
tion : Which fide of this Dilemma then
fhall we take ? Shall we fay that the Ex-
pences of War come under our Ordinary Ef-
tablifhment ? Or fhall we fay that the Words
Ordi-
28 Debates relative to the [Day IL
Ordinary and Extraordi?2ary mean the fame
Thing ? If by ordinary Hjla 'liJJjmeftt, it is
abfurd to fjppofe all the fpecifxC Gums granted
laft Year to be included, why fliould we fup-
pofe it to include PcnfioiiS, merely becaufe
Penfions were granted, or continued laft Year ?
It would be certainly m.uch more eafy to
found a Claim of granting or continuing Pen-
fions, upon the general Engagement to fup-
port his Majefty's Government, than, upon
die fpecific and limited Promife, to fupport
his ordinary EjiabliJJjment, which is all that
has been afked on his Majefty's behalf : To
fupport Go'vernme?it it is frequently neceOary
to give very conliderable Sums, as well by
way of Penfion as otherwife, for fecret Ser-
vice, of which the Crown is the fole Arbiter
and Judge, and w^hich, by the very Nature
of the Thing, cannot be fufficiently difclofed
to be particularly accounted for ; it is, indeed,
both our Duty and Inclination to fupport his
Majefly's Government in the Juft and Ge-
nuine Senfe of the Word, but yet the gene-
ral Exprefllon of fupporting Government, is
more liable to be ftretched into a Senfe not
neceffarily included in it, than the Words
Ordinary Ejiablijhnent, befides, being in it-
felf, and in its juft and genuine Meaning, a
Word
Day I.] Affairs of Ireland. 29
Word of much more extenfive Signification ;
in a Word, Sir, the Terms of the Speech
could not pollibly have been chofen if any
Thing not openly and explicitly avowed had
been intended j I conclude, therefore, from
the very Choice of the Words, that there was
no fuch Intention, and that as no Advantage
was meant to be taken of us by the Words
originally inferted, no Advantage will be
taken of that now propofed in their ftead,
and, for that Reafon, readily agree to the Al-
teration.
The Alteration was accordingly made.
The Right H— ble T— C— then read the
following Addrefs to the Earl of Northum-
berland^ Lord Lieutenant General, and Gene-
ral Governor of Ireland,
** May it pie afe your Excellency^
We his Majefty's moft dutiful and loyal
Subjeds, the Commons of Irela?id, in Parlia-
ment alTembled, return your Excellency our
moft iincere Thanks for your mofi: excellent
Speech from the Throne ; and we beg Leave
10 congratulate your Excellency on your Ap-
point-
^o Debates relatrce to the [Day IT.
pointment to the Government of this King-
dom.
We are inexpreflibly happy that our pad
Condu6t has met with his Majefty's Appro-
bation ; and we flatter ourfelves that by our
future Proceedings we Ihall not forfeit that
Regard, which his Majefty has fo gracioully
condefcended to honour us with.
We beg Leave to exprefs our Satisfaction,
that the Situation of public Affairs will
permit fo very confiderable a Diminution of
the Public Expences ; and that your Excel-
lency is appointed to the Government of this
Kingdom at fo happy a Period. And we af-
fure your Excellency we {hall mofl chearfully
gran: fuch Supplies as fliall be neceffary for
the Support of his Majefty's Government,
and fliall give all proper Attention to the Re-
dudion of the National Debt.
The Rifings of the lower People, men-
tioned by your Excellency, give us the ut-
moft Concern ; they deferve, and fhall have,
our clofcft Attention j and we are fully fen-
fible that no Means can ferve more effedtually
to prevent thofe Diforders for the future, than
the
Day II.] y^ffmrs of Ireland. 31
the Encouragement of fuch Inftitutlons as
tend to imprefs on the Minds of the lower
Order of People, early Habits of Induftry, and
true Ideas of Religion.
As we are fully perfuaded that your Excel-
lency will, upon all Occafions, be ready to
forward the growing Profperity of this very
improveable Country j fo we fhall, on our
Parts, be folicitcus to demonflrate to the
World, that we cannot more effectually ferve
our own Interefts, than by endeavouring,
through the whole Courfe of our Proceed-
ings, to contribute to the Honour, the Eafe,
and Permanency of your Excellency's Admi-
niflration."
Mr H — F — afterwards flood up and
fpoke as follows ;
Mr. S ,
It muft give every Member of this Houfe
the higheft Satisfadlion to refledl, that we
now meet freed and difencumbered from the
Apprehenfions under which we fuffered the
Beginning of the laft Seffions : We have alfo
the Happinefs of being acquainted with the
Difpofitions of each other, fo that no Requi-
fite
3 2 Debater relative to the [Day II,
fite is wanting for the mature Conlideration
of what may be moll for the Advantage of
our Country, independent of every other Ob-
jed:. It is, however, a melancholy Refledii-
on, that thofe who diflinguifli themfelves by
their Independance, Dilintereftednefs, and
public Spirit, thofe who make the Advantage
of their Country their only Obejd:, are too
often branded by the Name of Fadiion^ and
under that opprobious Appellation held forth
to public Obloquy and Reproach, merely be-
caufe they will not concur with the mean,
interefted, and felfifli Views of thofe who im-
plicitly adopt the Meafures of a Court, that
they may themfelves become the Objeds of
Court Favour. But whatever deligning Kna-
very may pretend, or thoughtlefs Ignorance
admic, the Word Fa^lion, as a Term of Re-
proach, m.ay be juftly retorted upon thofe by
whom it is fo liberally bedowed upon others.
Thofe are certainly a Fadlion, in this Senfe,
who unite upon any felfifli or contraded
Views, againft the public or general Intereft,
whether they are many or few : Thofe who
inddioufly endeavour to extend the Preroga-
tive, under the fpecious Pretence of fupport-
ing it, thofe who encourage the Exercife of
vmconftitutional Power, aflumed by a Mini^
{ler
Day II.] ^Jairs of Ireland. 33
fler under the Colour of ftrengthening the
Hands of Government, and thofe who concur
in the Diftribution of pecuniary Gratificati-
ons to Individuals, at the Expence of the Na-
tion, as a Compliment to royal Munificence,
thofe and thofe onlv deferve to be fti9;matized
by the Name of Fai^ion, It is certain, in-
deed, that they do not more miftake their
own true Intereil than the true Intereft of
tho^.' in whofe iVIeafures they implicitly con-
cur ; as the fupreme and only real Happinefs
and Honour of the Prince, are derived wholly
from the Freedom, Wealth, and Happinefs
of his People, fo the Happinefs and Honour
of a Minifter, if he is capable of any Thing
that may be truly fo called, are nothing more
than the reflected Honour and Happinefs of
his Prince j fo true it is that Providence has
made the real Happinefs of the Individual de-
pend upon the fame Condudl that produces
the Happinefs of the whole ; that every Vice
is manifcflly a Folly ; and he who facrifices
the Litereft of his Country, its Freedom, In-
dependance, or Wealth, to any private Advan-.
tage of himfelf, his Family, or his Friends,
evtntually betrays the very Individuals he
would ferve, by taking away what is of infi-
nitely more Value than any Thing he can
give
34 Debates relative to the [Day II.
give ; for what, in the Eftimation of Honefty
and Reafon, can be equivalent to a common
Intereil: in thofe invaluable Bleffings that dif-*
tinguifli a free People ! God forbid that I
(Lould renounce or difparage the forcible, yet
tender Ties of perfonal Friendfliip, parental
AfFed:ion, or ingenuous Gratitude ; permit
me to fay, that no Man in this Houfe is more
under the Influence of thefe Attachments
than myfelf ; no Man has more ardent Love
for his Friend, a ftronger Senfe of Obligation,
nor warmer Paffions ; nor do I dream that
any Man is bound to love thofe whom he has
never feen more than thofe who are indear-
ed to him by the Ties of Nature, and of
Blood ; much lefs that he can love the Public,
who does not love his Relations and Friends,
which muft make, to every one not deftitute
of Humanity, the moft endearing Part of it j
but, I fay, that he only purfues the true In-
tereft of his Friend and his Relation, who
concurs in every Meafure to fecure to them
that upon which every other Bleffing depends ;
that Freedom and Independance, without
which neither Labour is profitable, nor Reft
is fweet ; without which Gold is not
Wealth, nor are Titles Honour. The nar-
row minded felfifh Court Sycophant, who,
in
Day II.] y^fmrs of Ireland, 35
in the Wickednefs of his Folly, facrifices the
many to the few, does, in fa(3:, facrifice the
few with the many ; and does nothing more
than involve thofe for whom he is willing to
betray his Country, in the Ruin which his
Treachery is bringing upon it ; the Tool of
Court Fadlion is, like thofe who employ him,
the Dupe of his ownCunning, and the Scourge
of his own Vice. The namelefs Vermine,
that court Sun-fliine quickens in the Slime of
Venality, will foon find that the farne In-
fluence which produced will deftroy them ;
when the Moifture of that Dirt, in which they
crav/l, is a little farther exhaled, they will find
it ftlffening about them ; they will firfb be de-?
prived of Motion, then of Life, and the next
Gale will fweep them away with the Dud in
which they perlflied. It is not, indeed,
ftrange that remote fhould be facrificed to
immediateGood, when the Temptation flrikes
ftrongly upon the Senfe, and the Principles,
both of Virtue and Wifdom, by which alone
it can be refifted, are wanting ; but it iii
ftrange, and not lefs deplorable, that, in this
Country, many fliould be found who facrifice
their chief Interefi: to a fubordinate one fliU
more remote and precarious ; who give away
D Uiei:^
36 Debates relative to the [Day II.
their Share in the public Profperity, not for
immediate Riches and Titles, but for mere
Names and Shadows ^ for Promifes never
meant to be fulfilled j for painted Vapours,
which appear folid only by their diftance, which
float in airy Regions, where they can never
be approached, and which vanifh for ever
with the Light that gilds them j nay, in this
Age of Vanity and Difllpation, Men are cor-
rupted, even by lefs than a Promife, a trivial
Complement ; a familiar and a gracious Smile,
or a Squeeze by theHand,are deemed valuable
Confiderations for thofe ineftimable Bleffings
which our Forefathers procured for us, at the
Expence of Treafure, of Eafe, of Health, and
even Life itfelf. While this Infatuation
fpreads among us, and its Effeds are propor-
tionably more extenfive and more alarming,
it behoves thofe who are not yet circumfcrib-
ed by the enchanted Circle, thofe who have
ftiil the Ufe of unperverted Reafon, and who
flill Eftimate the Blefiings of Life by their
juft Value, to exert themfelves in behalf of
their native Country, and like its Guardian
Angel " to watch over it for Good." They
are deeply concerned in its particular Welfare,
as diftin(5t from other Parts of the Britijh
Do-
Day II.] ^Jairs of Irelanj). 37
Dominions, and they are acquainted with its
true Intereft, and know how it is to be pur-
fued, which cannot be the Cafe with thofe
who honour us with their Company from the
other Side of the Water : This tender, this
jealous Vigilance is ftill more necelTary as it is
not our Happinefs to have a native Prince to
wield a native Sceptre among us, but mufl ap-
pear to our Sovereign as we are reprelented
by others, and receive the Benefits of his Ad-
miniftration, not diredly, but as it were by
Reflediion. As a means conducive to the
good Purpofe, which I have endeavoured to
recommend, I beg leave to move.
"That the proper Officer do attend and in-
form this Houfe, whether any Patents, grant-
ing Penfions at Will, now in Being, out of
the Revenues of this Kingdom, are InroUed ;
and, if any fuch Inrollments there are, that
the proper Officer may lay thofe Inrollments
before the Houfe."
When Mr F had made this Motion,
the S r replied, that Patents, granting
Penfions for Life were never Enrolled, and a
Member replied to the S r, that this
D 2 Cir-r
38 Debates relative to the [Day II.
Circumftance was known to the honourable
Gentleman who made the Motion, and that
he intended it {liould by this Means come of^
ficially before the Houfe.
The Houfe then ordered accordingly.
T H U R S-
Day III.] Affairs o/IrelAiMD. 39
THUR SDAY, Oa. 13, 1763.
THIRD DAY.
C^ L , M. D.
Mr S— ,
I Rife up to remark a Defcd in this Confti-
tution no lefs manifefl: than important ;
the long Duration of our Parliaments ; as the
Evil of this Defed: is felf-evident, I might rea-
fonable fuppofe all Arguments for the Proof
of it to be precluded, and, as it is of the mofl
alarming and fatal Kind, I might alfo, with
equal Reafon, fuppofe all Arguments for the
removal of it to be fuperfluous ; indeed, the
Proof of what is already manifeft, is no lefs
difficult than unnecelTary, for by what Form
of Ratiocination could I prove the Light to
(liine at Noon-day, or demonflrate the Co-
lours which the Objeds round me derive from
that Light ? yet, becaufe there may be fome,
who by fhutting their Eyes, and involving
themfelves in voluntary Darknefs, obtain a
Pretence to doubt the Reality of v/hat others
intuitively perceive, I will endeavour to dif-
play what all who are willwg to fee, do fee,
D3 in
4CJ Debates relative to the [Day III.
in fuch a Manner as to make it impoffible for
thofe who love Darknefs rather than Light,
to iuppofe, or even pretend to fuppofe, the
Light does not (hine, and that the Figure
and Colour of the Objecfls it makes vifible,
are the mere Illulions of Fancy.
To drop the Metaphor, Sir, it is impoffible
to fuppofe that Men in general will difcharge
their Duty with a Zeal, Steadinefs, and Afii-
duity, when it is contrary to their Intereft,
equal to that which they v/ill exert in fulfil-
ling it, when their Duty and their Intereft co-
incide J the Duty of a Member of this Hou.e
is infinitely the moll: Important that can de-
volve upon a Subjedt, and his Intereft muft
either be connedled with it, or oppofed to it,
in Proportion as he is dependant upon his
Conftituents, or upon any Minifter, who may
have formed Defigns, in which his Conftitu-
ents could not pofTible concur. By the De-
fed:, which I have remarked in our Conftitu-
tion, a Member once chofen to fit in this
Houfe, fits in it for Life, or at leafi:, for the
Life of the Prince upon the Throne ; a Pro-
pofition from which the following Deduiftions
incontefiiibly proceed : He has nothing either
to hope or to fear from his Conftituents ; but
from
Da V III.] Affairs of Ireland, 41
from a Minifter his Expectations may reafon-
ably be great j he will be tempted to oppofe
the Mealures of a good Miniiler, merely, that
he may be bought into his Service, and to fell
himielf into the Service of a bad MiniPcer for
the fame Advantage 5 the Minifier alfo may
afford to bid high, when he buys for Life ;
fo that a Degree of Virtue, which might re-
iifl: a fmall Advantage, may befurmounted by
the Minifier, merely in confequence of his
being in a Situation which will make it worth
his while to offer greater. Time for this ini-
quitous Compact is alfo abundantly allowed,
which, whatever might be the Inclination and
Interefl of the Parties, would not be the Cafe,
if Parliaments, inflead of iafling for Life,
were, according to their primitive Inflitution,
to lafl but a Year ; or, according to a late
Regulation, for three. A Reprefentative who
has a Seat for Life, may become an abfoluts
Stranger to his Confiituents, while he conti-
nues the Trullee of all that is dear and im-
portant to them upon Earth : He who, when
eleded, had a good Eflate in the County, or
City, by which he was chofen, may, by the
Viciffitude natural to Worldly Affairs, be to-
tally undone, and not have a Foot of Land in
the World ; his Interefl:, therefore, in the
P 4 com-
42 Debates rdative to the Day 111.]
€ommon Interefl is lefs, and his Dependance
jiaturally greater upon thofe who may poffibly
wifli to fiibvert it. The Difpofal of Property
will thus remain in one who has no Property
of his own, and the Liberty of others depend
upon one whofe own Liberty, probably, de-
pends wholly upon his Seat in Parliament;
there is no Time in which he can be called to
uccount for his Breach of Truft, no Time in
which a worthier Man may be chofen in his
room ; add to this, that the Sitting of a Mem-
ber, once elected, for Life, is an Injury to
thofe who are excluded, and who ought to
take their Turn j it is alfo a perpetual Check
upon zealous and adiive public Spirit, for, as
Man, the befl Man, is a mixed Character,
much will never be done for others, if fome-
thing for fclf is not mixed with it j and our
great Poet, and Moralift, has defined Virtue
to be that Self-love which includes the Good
of others ; lie, therefore, who might exeft
himfelf upon a public and important Occalion,
and avail the Public of his Parts, his Influ-
ence, or his Fortune, if he hoped by a well-
earned Popularity, to obtain a Voice in the
great Council of his Country, will, perhaps,
either lit wholly Inadive, or at belf, make
l^ut a feeble Effort, if this Motive is wanting.
In-
Day III.] u^Jhirs of Ireland. 43
Indolence, Sir, is the genuine Charaifter of
Defpair, or of a State in which Hope has no
Object 5 and how many would be actuated
by Hope, if our Parliaments were limited to
a fhort Duration, who are now likely to be
torpid for want of that vital Principle, Heave
every one prefent to determine. It is true,
that now and then the Door of this Floufe is
opened for the Admiffion of a fingle Indivi-
dual by Death ; but all that is uncertain is,
by a happy Inftind; of Nature, deemed to be
diftant j and it being alio doubtful in what
Part the Vacancy will happen, the poffibility
is no more a Stimulus to one than to all j how
different would be the Cafe if, at the End
of a iliort Period, the Doors were to be thrown
open for the Admiffion of our whole Num-
ber ? How many Hearts would then conti-
nually beat with Ardour and Emulation^ how
many Affiduities would be pradlifed, how
extenfive a Popularity acquired, how much
our Conftitution ftudied, and our Intereft at-
tended to, by thofe who now fink, with a
fupine Content, into the Oblivion of private
Life, and fit, darkling and filent, in an obfcure
Corner of the VelTel, which they know they
never fhall affift to fteer.
It
44 Debates relative to the [Day III,
It would be very eafy, Sir, for me to fliew,
by citing indubitable Fafts from our Hiftory,
that what I have endeavoured to prove 7nuji be^
has been ; that our Conftitution has fiourifli-
ed, when Parliaments have been fhort, and de-
clined when Parliaments have been long ;
that bad Kings, and corrupt Minidiers, have
made the Transition from fliort Parliaments
to long, and good Kings, and upright Mini-
fters, the Tranfition from long Parliaments to
fhort J but to enumerate EfFedls as Evidence
of their Caufes, when the neceffary Efficiency
of their Caufes has been demon ftrated, would
be like bringing Evidence to prove that a
Man did not walk, and eat, and fleep, and
tranfad: his Bufinefs, after having already de-
monftrated that he is dead. Let it, however,
be remembered, that the firft who extended
Parliaments to a longer Duration than three
Years, was Henry the Vlllth, a violent and
ambitious Tyrant, the Slave of every deprav-
ed Appetite, and equally impatient of Re-
ftraint from the Laws both of God and Man.
As he knew that his arbitrary Will could not
be gratified, but by gaining an Afccndancyo-
ver his Parliament, he firft contrived to make
his Parliament long, as the only Means of ob-
taining
Day III.] Affiurs of Ireland. 45
taining that Afcendancy ; and the flavlfh O-
bedience of the Parliament, when he had thus
modelled it to his Purpofe, is well known.
It is alio well known that Charles the lid ob-
tained a long Parliament, which knew no
Rule of ading but the Will of th.ofe who gave
its Membei's their Pay j this Parliament ob-
tained the Name of the Fenfion Farliament^
and was, perhaps, the Model upon which
fome later Parliaments have been formed.
JBut, to wave farther particular Inftances, it is
too notorious to be denied, that many dan-
gerous Attempts have mifcarried on the other
Side of the Water, not fo much from the Vir-
tue of the Parliament, as fiom the Apprehen*
fion of an approaching Ele(5tion ; and of this
Minifters have been fo much aware, that the
Clofe of a Parliament has always been deem-
ed an improper Time to propofe any Meafure
which is, in general, difagreeable to the Peo-
ple. In a Word, Sir, it would appear incon-
teflibly, from the Reafon of the Thing, unfup-
ported by Fads, and by Fads without the
Affiftancc of Argument, that the Prolongati-
on of the Term of Parliaments weakens the
Security of the People, and that nothing can
make it fafe to repofe fo great a Trufl in any
Set of Men, as the colledlive Body delegates
to
46 Debates relative to the FDay III.
to its Reprefentatlves, but the Shortnefs of the
Term for which fuch Delegation is made.
But, if this is true of Parliaments in general,
how much greater mud be the Danger arifing
from the unlimited Duration of our Parlia-
ment, when we have no fuch Barrier againfl
minill:erial Influence as the Place-Bill in £?z-
gland ? A Barrier which was thought necef-
fary, notwithftanding the Limitation of Par-
liament to feven Years ; and that it is Icfs ne-
ceHIiry to us, whofe Parliament is unlimited,
or that with it we might more fafely fuffer
our Parliament for Life, than our Neigh-
bours, is, I believe, a Compliment they are
very willing to pay us, but which, I believe,
no Friend to his Country would be ambitious
to receive.
To conclude, as, at leaft, an Argument ad
lofninet/i^ let me obferve, that every Friend to
the Revolution muft, confiftently with his
Principles, declare in Favour of iimitting the
Time of our Parliaments, for how abfurd is it
to maintain that the People have a Right to
make and change a King, and yet have no
Right to change their Reprefentatlves, to
whom they delegate their Power of keeping
the King from being independant of his
People
I
Day III.] ^^airs of Ireland, A.y
People ? I move, then, and I hope to be fe-
conded by every Gentleman in the Houfe,
that leave may be given to bring in Heads
of a Bill for limiting the Duration of Parlia-
ments in this Kingdom^
** Ordered, that leave be given to bring In
Heads of fuch a Bill, and that Dr Z-^ and
Mr F-— do bring in the fame."
" Ordered, that the proper Officer do lay
before this Houfe the Inrollments of the Pa-
tents, by which the Offices of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, Mafter of the Rolls, and
Judges have been granted."
Dr L- — then moved, that it might be an
Inftrucition to the Committee that was ap-
pointed to enquire into the Rifings in the
North J to enquire alfo into the Caufes of the
Infurreftions in the South : It feemed, he
faid, very extraordinary to him that the In-
didlments in the North were all laid for high
Treafon, and thofe in the South only for a
Riot, and a Breach of the Peace. As the
Crimes in both Parts of the Country were pre-
cifely the fame, both in their Nature and Con-
fequences, he was amazed, he faid, how the
Profe-^
4^ Debates relative to the [Day III.
Pfofecution could be io different, except in
the Purfuance of a particular and partial In-
flrudlion from above ; he alfo threw out fome
general Refle(5tions on the Condudt of tha
Judges who fat in the South.
He was anfwered by Mr G — , the S—
G — , who faid, he was greatly furprifed that
the honourable Gentleman had not been bet-
ter informed, for that the Indictments in the
South had, in many Cafes, been laid for high
Treafon as well as in the North; and the
Truth of this was fo notorious, that feveral
had even been executed upon the Statute ; he
obferved, indeed, that in fome Cafes a Lenity
had been fhewn, but he faid it was only
when Reafon and Humanity required it,
when the Delinquent had been deluded, and,
in fome Meafure, overborn by the Heads of
the Infurgents, and that there was not theleafl:
Shadow of Reafon to fuppofe that the Go-
vernment had either Way interpofed, or di-
rected the lead Partiality to be fliewn in dif-
penfing either Juitice, or Mercy, on this Occa-
fion. He added, that as the learned Judges,
from the Nature of their Employment, could
not fit in that Houfe to defend themfelves, he
could not help anfwering for them, and fhould
think
Day III.] ^Jlairs of Ireland. 4^
think himfelf wanting, as well to his own
Charader as theirs, if he did not do them the
Jbflice to fay, that they had behaved through
the whole of that unhappy Affair fo as to de-
ferve the greateft Honour both as Magiftrates
and Men.
To this Dr L — made no Reply, but, upon
his Motion, it was ordered, that it be an In-
ftrud:ion to the faid Committee to enquire in-
to the Caufes of the Infurredions in the
South.
Afjfwer of the Lord Lieutenant to the Ad^
drefs of the Hoiife,
" Gentlemen^
" I am extremely thankful for this very
obliging x^ddrefs : The favourable Opinion
you are pleafed to conceive of my Intentions,
at the Commencement of my Adminiftrati-
on, will, 1 flatter myfelf, be confirmed in the
Courfe, and by the Conclufion of it. It will
be my chief Endeavour to merit your Appro-
bation by my own Conduct, and faithfully to
reprefent to his Majefty the Loyalty and the
Affedlion
^o Debates relathe to the [Day III,
Affcdlion of Yours : Opportunities of doing
this Ad: of Jufticc, fo honourable to you, and
fo pleafing to mc, I perfuade myfelf will vtxf
frequently occur; and you may reft affured
they fliall be always very readily embraced,
and improved to the utmoft Advantage."
THURS-
Day IV. J Affairs of Ireland. 51
THURSDAY, 0^.27, 1763.
FOURTH DAY.
MR. R — F — got up and faid, that as
many unavoidable Accidents frequent-
ly prevented the beft-intentioned Subjedls
from qualifying themfelves vv^ithin the exad:
Time prefcribed by the Ad:, and that, as the
Adt was never defigned to diftrefs fuch Per-
fons, by taking Advantage of a Delay w^hich
they could not prevent, he humbly moved
that Leave might be given, to bring in Heads
of a Bill for allowing farther Time to Perfons,
in Offices or Employments, to quahfy them-
felves, purfuant to an Adl to prevent the far-
ther Growth of Popery.
Ordered that Leave be given to bring in the
Heads of fuch a Bill.
Mr n ^— •.
MrS ,
As Liberty is the common Birth-right of
Mankind, and, like Health, is that Blefling,
without which no other can be enjoyed, it is
E cer-
52 Debates relative to the [Day IV.
certainly Matter of Regret, that, by the natu-
ral and necefTary Imperfed:Ion in all human
Things, the Liberty of Induftry and Inno-
cence fliould, in fome Circunidances, be pre-
carious, even in this Country, of which Free-
dom is the glorious, and almofl: peculiar Pri-
vilege, and in behalf of which our Anceflors
have been ever ready to expend the laft Mite
of their Property, and the laft Drop of their
Blood. As Jullice. is nothing more than
Goodnefs, under the Diredion of Wifdom,
which inflids Puniihment upon a Part for
the Good of the Whole, Puniihment, how-
ever merited, and however necefiliry, by no
meajis excludes Pity : The Magiftrate may,
without Reproach, drop a Tear over the Cri-
minal whom he condemns even to die, and
feel the generous Struggle of Companion in his
Bofom when he denies Liberty, even to Idle-
nefs and Guilt ; what then muft be the Feel-
ing of the humane and generous Mind, where
the Law, either deceived by the Wiles of ini-
quitous Cunning, or the fortuitous Concur-
rence of fpecious but deceitful Appearances,
is found to have condemned blamelefs Sim-
plicity, and laborious Diligence to a Dungeon,
in which, like the Grave, " there is neither
Work nor Device by which Man can profit,"
and
Day IV.] ^J^airs of Ireland. 53
and which is crowded with all the Horrors
that are the genuine Progeny of Mifery and
Guilt J and yet if no Man was to be commit-
ted to Prifon, but upon full Examination, and
inconteftible Proof of his Guilt, what Offen-
der could be fecured ? and if the Profecutor,
upon failure, in his Proof, was to become
fubjed: to the fame Puni(hment, which the
Delinquent would have incurred, what Of-
fender would be profecuted ? At the time
when Perfons, taken up upon Sufpicion, are
committed by a Magiftrate, the Proof of their
Crime, fuppofing them to be really Guilty,
is often known to be impoffible, at Icaft, it is
always impoflible where it is not manifeft
and felf-evident, and where it is fo, the Com-
mitment is not an unmerited Punilliment.
And, as our Laws require nothing lefs than
an abfolute Demonftration of Guilt, by direct
and pofitive Evidence, it Would be Cruelty
inftead of Mercy to fubjed the Profecutor,-
who has been already injured by the Crime
committed, to fuffer inftead of the Offender,
becaufe he has not been able to demonftrate
that the Perfon againft whom there were
reafonable Sufpicions was he. What then is
to be done ? fliall we admit more (lender Evi-
dence to convidl the Accufed, that it may be
E 2 equi-
54 Debates relative to the [Day IV.
equitable to punilli the Accufer, if he fails in
the Convidtion ? This, furely would be no
Teftimony, either of our Humanity, or our
Wifdom ; or (hall we, inftead of the Solem-
nity of a Tryal, by twelve difinterefled Per-
fons, the Equals, or Peers,of the fuppofed Of-
fender, enable a fubordinate Magiftrate to de-
termine finally of Life and Death, by fuch
Probabilities as can haftily be brought before
him, upon the firfl Apprehenfion of a fufpec-
ted Perfon ? Surelv this would be ftill lefs
eligible than the other Expedient. If the
Evil then of fometimes committing an inno-
cent Perfon to Prifon cannot be obviated with-
out bringing Innocence into yet greater Dan-
ger, and expofing it to yet worfe Mifchief, it
is natural to enquire, what Methods the Legif-
lature has taken to atone for the Wrongs
which its own Imbecility makes unavoidable j
when a Man, whofe Poverty expofed him to
the Imputation of Crimes, which the Wealthy
could not be tempted to commit, has been
kept a Prifoner till the Time of his Tryal
arrives, and, when he is brought to the Barr,
it appears that he is innocent, and, perhaps,
that he has been the Vidim of one of thofe
Wretches, who make Perjury fubordinate to
every other Crime, or of fome Villain, to
whom
Day IV.] ^j/ri (?/ Ireland. 55
whom his Virtue or hislnduftry rendered him
obnoxious, and who, having by this infernal
Revenge filled up the Meafure of his Iniquity,
is fled the Country ; when it appears that the
unhappy Objedl of fuch diabolical Wicked-
nefs has been languilliing in the Filth and In-
fection of a Prifon, the Affociate of Thieves
and Murderers, that his Wife, and his Chil-
dren, who received their daily Bread from
the Labour of his Hand, have been expofed
to all the Miferies of Want, imbittered by
Grief, Anxiety and Terror ; that his Reputa-
tion is fullied, his little Credit exhaufted,
and Debts contrad:ed, which, however fmall
in the Eftimation of Affluence, are yet greater
than he can ever difcharge ; when thefe, and
many other Inftances of his Diftrefs, and his
Wrongs are become too manifeft to admit a
Doubt, what Provifion has his Country made
to alleviate them ? what Fund is appropriated
to prevent his being ftill the Slave of a petty
Creditor, to maintain him in the Sicknefs and
Debility, which he may have contracted in his
Confinement, and to re-place him in the
State from which he had been driven, by the
erring Hand of hood-winked Juftice, or the
combined Effort of Violence and Fraud '^
Methinks lam anfwered, by the Regret and
E 3 Com-
56 Debates relative to the [Day IV.
Compafiion, which I read in your Countenan-
ces, " there is none. " Alas ! it is, indeed, too
true that there is none -, is the unhappy Suf-
ferer then to be difmiffed again into the
World to furmount his Diftrefs, and forget
his Wrongs as he may ? to this furely, no
Heart can affent, without fighing over its
own Inability to award him a better Lot , and
yet this is infinitely preferable to the State, in
which, after all the Proof of hisSufferings.and
his Innocence, he is now abandoned by his
Country. The Hufband, the Father, the
ufeful, yet injured Member of Society, whom
twelve Men, upon their Oath have declared
to have committed no Crime, or whom the
Villain, by whofe Machinations he was con-
fined, dare not appear to profecute, is dragged
back to his Dungeon, where he is again con-
fined, without Pity, and without Remorfe, by
the Tyrant of the Goal, till he has paid what
is demanded of him, under the execrable, tho'
fpecious Denomination of Fees. Who can
fpcak, or who can hear it without Shame and
Indignation ! Is a Man to be mulded by a
Goaler, becaufe, by the Wickednefs of an
Enemy, or the Fallibility of a Magiflrate, he
has already fuffered, being innocent, a Pu-
pifhment due only to the mofl atrocious
Guilt!
Day IV.] AJ'airs in Ireland. ^y
Guilt ! Is Innocence to be Hill puniflied,
merely becaufe it has been puniflied already ?
and are thofe, whom the Law is fuppofed to
protect, tofufFermore by the Extortion of its
Inflruments than by thofe whom it ought to
punifli and reflrain ? That we are at prefent
under the Reproach of a Condud: fo abfurd,
and fo inhuman, fo contrary to our Nature
and Conftitution, is not lefs aftonilliing than
true, but, furely the Laws of God, and the
Dictates of Confcience, every Sentiment of
Humanity, and every Principle of Juftice,
require that it {hould be true no longer j how
fuch a Prad:Ice, whether founded upon any
Law, or whether merely countenanced by
Prefcription, waseftablifhed, it is very diflicuit
to conceive; it is more flrange it fiiould con-
tinue, and it is ftranger ftill, that when a wor-
thy Gentleman, whofe Example 1 {hall always
think it the higheft Honour to follow, brought
a Bill into this Houfe to fet it afide, the Bill
was, by fome unaccountable Fatality, thrown
out i happy is it for us, Sirs, that we are in
a Situation fo remote from the Diftrefs I have
defcribed, that we can fcarce believe it polTi-
ble to cxift : But if any Gentleman is in-
clined to vifit thefe Scenes of Wickednefs
E 4 and
58 Debater relative to the [Day IV.
and Mifery, the public Prifons of this Coun-
try, he will find the Number of thofe who
are detained merely for their Fees, to bear a
confiderable Proportion to the whole 5 the
Friends of fufFering Poverty are foon exhauft-
ed, and he, whofe daily Bread depended
wholly upon his daily Labour, when once he
is removed from the World to a Prifon, is
very foon forgotten by all but thofe who have
it not in their Power to afford him pecuniary
Affiftance : The Legiflature, Sir, fhould cer-
tainly interpofe in this Cafe from mere Po-
licy, fuppofing Juftice, Humanity, and every
more generous Motive to have loft its Influ-
ence ; the Prifoner is neceffarily idle, and, if
a Miracle do not interpofe, he will, at length
become corrupt ; the Public will be depriv-
ed of the Benefit of his Labour, while he is
confined, and if, after long Confinement, he
returns into the World, he will probably be
the Peft of that very Society of which he
was before the Support -, and, furely it is the
Intereft of Government, in every view, to
prevent Mankind from thus ftarving and de-
praving one another : I flatter myfelf, how-
ever, that we fhall not be prompted to ef-
poufe the Caufe of fuffering Innocence, of the
Poor
Day IV.] Affairs o/" Ireland. 59
Poor, and " him that has none to keep him,"
by the mere frigid Senfe of Duty, and a Re-
gard to political Principles ; the very Indi-
gence of the Sufferer, and our ownExemption
from the fame Species of Diftrefs, fliould
quicken our Adivity, on this Occafion, and, I
dare fay, every Gentleman prefent can lay his
Hand upon his Heart, and with that Benevo-
lence, which is at once the Honour and Hap-
pinefs of our Nature, fay to himfelf.
Homo fum^ hiimani nihil a me alienum piito *.
I therefore, humbly move, that Leave be
given to bring in Pleads of a Bill fordifcharg-
ing, without Fees, Perfons who fhall be ac-
quitted of Offences, for which they are, or
{hall be indidted, and for making a Compen-
fation to Sheriffs, Goalers, and Clerks of the
Crown, for fuch Fees.
Ordered, that Leave be given to bring in
Heads of fuch a Bill,
* I am a Man, and nothing by which Man is afteiSi:-
ed can be indifferent to me.
Mr,
6o Debates relative to the [Day IV.
Mr. R F .
Mr. S~,
I rife up in Behalf of a Petition of the in-
corporated Society of Dublin, for promoting
EngliJJj Proteftant Schools in this Kingdom.
That a Difference of religious and pohtical
Principles, in any Country, is of the greateft
Prejudice to the State, ftands in need of no
Proof, nor can it be denied that this King-
dom has long, and does now fuffer all the E-
vils of fuch a Difference : I think, alfo, it
will be readily admitted, that the Support of
Schools, in which thofe, who would otherv/ife
be Papifls, are educated in the Principles of
the eftablidied Religion of this Country, is
a Meafure well adopted to remove thefe E-
vils, by gradually eradicating their Caufe ; it
follows, therctore, that, upon mere Principles
of Policy and Intereft, this Inftitution (liould
be fupported ; I hope, however, that there
are other Inducements, of a more elevated,
and a more amiable Kind, of which wc all
feel the Force. Every Proteftant muff ne-
ceffarily fuppofe that Popery, befides its Ab-
furdities, contains many dangerous Errors.
To refcue the Children of the Poor, of thofe,
who,
Day IV.] JJairs c/Ir-elakd. 6i
who, " If in this Life only they have Hope,
are of all Men moft miferable," from a State,
in which they will implicitly imbibe Errors,
that will at leaft endanger their Happinefs, in
a State of final Retribution hereafter, is a
Work, that, where there is any Compaffion
for helplefs Innocence, and for deluded Bigo-
try, any Regard for Virtue, any Zeal for Re-
ligion, will be undertaken from Feelings, and
Principles, very different from civil Intereil:,
and State Policy. But Motives of Compaffi-
on will not be wanting for the Promotion of
this Inftitution, even to thofe who are inclin-
ed to fet the fpiritual or focial Advantage of
Religion wholly out of the Queftion ; a Charter
School is an Afylum, not only from Error and
Superftition, but from Mifery 3 from Idlenefs,
which enervates the Body, and depraves the
Mind 3 and from Indigence, under which
helplefs Infancy frequently finks into the
Grave j in a Charter School, the Principles of
genuine Clirillianity are taught, early Habits
of Induftry are formed, loyal Subjefts arc pro-
duced for the State, ufeful Members for the
Community, and rational Chriftians for the
Church. It would be eafy for me to enlarge
upon this Subjedl, but as the good Effeds of
the Charter Schools have been fo numerous,
and
62 Debates relative to the [Day IV,
and fo manlfeft in the Neighbourhood of e-
very Gentleman in this Houfe, and are, in-
deed, fo generally acknowledged, it would be
taking up Time unneceiTarily, which may be
employed to better Purpofe. I would now
proceed to give fome Account of their prefent
State, but in this I am prevented by the Pe-
*tition ; I fhall therefore only obierve, that
the Nurferies, for the Eflablifliment of which
Affiflance is now fought from Parliament, are
attended with Advantages yet greater than the
fuperior Schools would produce alone ; be-
fore Children could be received into thofe
Schools, they would have arrived at an Age,
when the fcrongeft Connexion is formed be-
tween Children and their Parents ; by the
Complacency of the Parent to the Child on
one Hand, and, on the other, by the Affec-
tion returned by the Child to the Parent, in
confequence of the Indearments which that
Complacency produces j in confequence of
this mutual Attachment, the Child, who, all
the Time it is at School, remembers the In-
dulgence of parental Tendernefs with regret,
and pines with Delire to return Home, too of-
ten gratifies this Delire, as foon as ever it is dif-
miffed, with an Impatience, and Ardour, pro-
portioned to its Delay j the Intention of the
School
Day IV.] Affairs of Ireland. 63
School is thus defeated ^ the Influence of the
Parent, and Relations, in conjundion with
that of the Prieft, enforcing the joint Precept
and Example of both, precipitate him again
into thofe Errors, which he had been taught
to efchew, and the bad Habits effential to his
chofen Situation inevitably recur ; he is at
length married among his Relations, and his
return to Truth and Induftry precluded for
ever. But, on the contrary, Children are re-
ceived into the Nurfery at a Time, when they
are rather an Incumbrance than a Gratificati-
on to their Parents, and, before they can be
fenfible of their CareiTes ; no tie, therefore,
is formed, which can draw them back into
the Delufion and Irregularities, from which
they have been once delivered by the chari-
table Liberality of their Country ; befides,
the more early Habits of Induftry are form-
ed, and Precepts of rational Religion inculca-
ted, the more ftrong and the more lafting
both will probably be, and the more likely to
produce their genuine Effeds. That this In-
ftitution ftands in need of Support, will ap-
pear from the Petition, the Allegations of
which, if doubted, may be fupported by in-
conteftible Evidence \ as the Support of it is,
in every View, of the higheft Importance, and
as
6a. Dclmfcs relati've to the [Day IV".
as it has been, in a particular Manner, recom-
mended from the Throne, I move that the
Petition be referred to the Confideration of a
Committee, that they do examine the Matter
thereof, and report the fame, with their Opi-
nion thereupon, to the Houfe.
The faid Petition having been prefented,
and received, was read, fetting forth that the
Society was incorporated by his late Majefty,
in the Year 1733, and by the great Bounty of
the Crown, repeated Aids of Parliament, the
Subfcriptions and Benetadions of fcveral Per-
Tons in Great Britain^ Ireland^ Vxnd his Ma-
jefly's Plantations in Ameriaiy has been ena-
bled to eredl, in feveral Parts of this Kingdom,
forty-nine Schools, for the Maintenance and
Education of about two Thoufand Children,
as alfo a Nurfery, in Dubli?i, for the immedi-
ate Reception of fuch of the Children as arc
admitted here. That the Children in faid
Schools are inll:rud;ed in the Proteftant Reli-
gion, and trained up to Induftry and Labour,
in order to be apprenticed to Pxoteftant Li-
nen Weavers, Flax Dreflers, Gardiners, Far-
mers, Tradefmen, and to Gentlemen for Ser-
vants. That the Society has been at a very
confiderable Expence, in building feveral new
Schools,
I
Day IV.] Affairs of Ireland. 65
Schools, and has alfo accepted I'everal other
advantageous Propofals, which it cannot
proceed to carry into Execution. That the
Society, encouraged by this Houfe to build
four Nurferies, one in each Province, for the
Reception of one hundred Children under
fix Years of Age, has io far carried that
great Plan into Execution, that Children have
been fome Time iince received in three of the
faid Nurferies, and that it has alfo pur-
chafed Ground for the fourth Nurfery, but
is at prefent unable to proceed further there-
in. That, by the great Number of charitable
Inftitutions of various Kinds, both in this
Kingdom and Great 'Britain^ the annual Sub-
fcriptions, and other Benefadions, to this So-
ciety have been greatly leffened ; it is
therefore under the moil: urgent Neceffity, to
make its Application to this Houfe, as the
only efFedual Refource, whereby it may
be enabled to carry on a Defign, fo well cal-
culated for promoting Induftry, and fo highly
ufeful to the Proteftant Intereft in this King-
dom. And praying Relief.
*' Ordered, that the faid Petition be refer-
red, as by Mr. F— 's Motion."
Th(
66 Debates relathe to the [Day IV*
The R-— t H— ble Mr A— M— • then mo-
ved that a Supply might be granted to his Ma-
jefty, and that, for the greater Freedom of
Debate, the Houfe might refolve itfelf into a
Committee of the whole Houfe,
Mr y — E— then faid, that as the Penfi-
ons granted on the Eablifliment of Ireland,
were Objeds moft interefling to the Nation,
and moft worthy the ftridteft parliamentary
Enquiry, he was of Opinion they fhould be
made as public as poffible, by being printed,
that every Body might know by whom thofe
enormous annual Sums were received, in
what Proportions, and for what Time, alfo in
what Country the Penlioners rellded, that
People might the better judge how far they
were a national Advantage, or otherwife j he
therefore moved for the printing the fame.
" Ordered, that the Lift of Peniionson the
civil and military Eftablifhment be printed."
FRI-
Day IV.] 'JfairsoflR-EtAiit). 6y
FRIDAY, O^. 28, 1763.
FIFTH DAY.
The R— t H-— ble Mr F— y^— *
MrS i,
ITake this early Opportunity to acquaint
the Houfe with my Intention to bring in
two Bills this Seflions, which, in fome de-
gree relate to each other, and both which 1
think of the higheil Importance to the Re-
ligion, Morality, and civil Government of
this Nation : The firft is a Bill for encreaf-
ing the Salaries of Curates ; by the Statute
of the 6th of George the Ift, it is ena<5led, that
if any Rector, or Vicar, fhall nominate any
Curate to the Ordinary, to ferve the Cure of
fuch Redlor, or Vicar, in his abfcene, the Or-
dinary {hall be impowered to fix, for fuch
Curate, a certain Stipend not more than fifty,
nor lefs than twenty Pounds a Year. And,
by the firft o( George the lid, it isalfo enadt-
ed, that it fliall be lawful for every Bifhop,
at the Time of his licencing any Curate, or
other Perfon, in holy Orders, to alTift the In-
F cumbent
68 Debates relative to the [Day IV.
cumbent of any Paridi, by whom he fhall be
nominated, to appoint a fufficient Stipend, to
be paid at luch Time as he fhall think fit, by
fuch Incumbent, to fuch Curate j fuch Stipend
not to exceed fifty Pounds a Year, nor fall
fliort often ; and, as both thefc Adts are ta-
ken from the Briti/Jj Acl of the twelfth of
Queen Anne^ the Ordinary is allowed to
judge and determine all Cafes relative thereto,
and the Curate's Salary is generally fixed at
forty Pounds a Year.
Now, Sir, I think it muft be univerfally
allowed, that the Salary of forty Pounds a
Year was much too fmall for a Curate, even
when the A(fl of the firfl: of George the lid
was made, which is now fix and thirty Years
ago ; how greatly then muft it fall ihort, at
this Time, when the Value of Money is fo
much lefi^ened, that Sums, which were then
lent at Seven per Cent, are now lent at Four ;
at the fame Time that more Things are be-
come neceflary, and every Necefiary is be-
come dearer. I call thofe things necefiary,
Sir, that Habit and Cuftom have affixed to
the feveral Situations and Conditions of Men ;
the Refinements of this Age, and the Impor-
tation of foreign Articles, have greatly en-
creafed
Day v.] Affairs of Ike LAUD, 69
creafed the Number of Particulars that are
thus neceflary ; and, I believe, all things con-
sidered, it will be found that forty Pounds a
Year, fix and thirty Years ago, was, at leaft,
equal to eighty Pounds a Year now ; every
Gentleman prefent, will, therefore, furely con-
cur with me, in Opinion, that forty Pounds a
Year is much too fmall a Pittance for one,
who always by his Education, and frequently
by his Birth, is a Gentleman j who receives
new Dignity, from the facred Fundion to
which he is called ; who would be degraded
by allbciating with thofe whofe Income in
civil Life produces only a Pittance equal to
his own ; and who can preferve the Propriety
of his Charader, and the Refped; and Weight,
which alone can give Efficacy to his Miniftry,
only by moving in the Rank of thofe whofe Re-
venue enables them to fpend in a Month, more
than he receives in a Year, which unavoidably
brings many other Expences, under the Deno-
mination ofNeceflaries of Life, with refpedl to
the Curate, which, in another Situation, would
not occur. I fay, Sir, thefe things conlidered,
I cannot fuppofe that any Gentleman prefent
will think forty Pounds a Year a fufficient
Stipend for thofe who perform all the
Duties, for which, no lefs than one tenth
F z Part
7© Debates relative to the [Day V.
Part of the Revenue of the Country is allotted
by our Ecclefiaftical Conftitution. If forty
Pounds a Year is enough for thofe who per-
form thefe Duties, why is the Public taxed
at more ? Is it the Intention of Govern-,
ment to tax Induftry for the Support of Idle-j
nefs ? Is a tenth Part of all that the Earth
yields to the Hufbandman, in return for the
Sweat of his Brow, to be paid into the Purfes
of thofe who do nothing but pay back a
fmall Pittance of it to a Subftitute, who
performs thofe Duties and Fundions, which,
in the Opinions of our Anceflors, make it re-
quifite to pofiefs the whole ? Sure I am, Sir,
that the Reafonablenefs of the Church Reve-
nue can be fupported by no Arguments,
which will not prove that officiating Cu-
rates fliould have a much more ample
Allowance than forty Pounds a Year. The
very Appointment of Tythes is a Demonflra-
tion that the Founders of the Inftitution
thought thole who preached the Gofpel, and
adminiftered the Sacrament, who were to
admonilli the Wicked, and encourage the
Good, and to fet an Example of Hofpitality
and Chriftian Benevolence, fhould have
much more than the mere NecelTaries of
Life : And, as I am moft fincerely of their
Opinion,
Day v.] Affairs of iRELANiy. yi
Opinion, I would not have the Revenues of
the Church lefs, but I v^'ould have them more
equally diftributed ; I vi^ould have thofe fup-
ported in the Character, who render the Cha-
rad:er fubfervient to the Duty, and not thofe,
who with a Rank and Affluence, that would
add Weight and Efficacy, both to their Pre-
cept and Example, leave the Labour of Jn-
flrud:ion, and Admonition, to thofe whofe
Poverty and Dependance mufl: render both
not only ufelefs, but contemptible. I will
readily admit that a Gentleman, whofe Edu-
cation has coft annually more than the whole
Income allotted to the Fundtion, for which
he could no otherwife be qualified, who, with
every private Shift, to maintain an outward
Appearance fuitable to his Character, cannot
hide his Diftrefs, whofe Body is harralfed by
fatiguing Duty, and whofe Mind is depreffed
by a Senfe of his Condition, ought to be re-
garded at once with Reverence and Compaf-
lion ; but the Queftion is not how he ought
to be regarded, but how he is regarded ;
and, it is but too well known, that, again ft the
Contempt of Poverty, no Age has ever found
a Remedy, no Ability a Defence, nor any
Virtue a Cure ; Poverty is not only an Evil
in itfelf, but it is contagious too i it brings
F 3 all
72 Debates relative to the [Day V.
things into contempt, with which it appears
to be connected. When it has rendered the
Curate contemptible, it foon renders his
Fundion fo too, and when his Function is
involved in his perfonal Difgrace, the Reli-
gion, of which he is the Minifter, cannot
long efcape free. If Religion then is of any
Importance to Mankind, it is of Importance
to fupport its Minifters, in a State, in which
Frugality, at leaft, may obtain Independance,
and Virtue procure Efteem. But I have
hitherto. Sir, confidered the Curate of forty
Pounds a Year as a fingle Man j if I was
difpofed to intereft your Pafiions, as well as
your Underftanding, in his behalf, I would
coniider him as a Hufband and a Father ; I
would defcribe the Diftrefs of his Family du-
ring the HelplefTnefs of Infancy, and theLan-
gour of Sicknefs j the Diflradion and x^nguifli
of Mind which he muft fuffer, under a total
and hopekfs Inability, to fupply what is re-
quifite for the proper Nurture, and Main-
tenance of the one, and the Solace and Reco-
very of the other. I am forry to fay, there is
too much reafon to apprehend, that fome
may pofTibly be fo illiberal and void of
feeling, as to reply, with a Sneer, what Bu-
fmefs have thofe Wretches to marrv, who
can
Day v.] Affairs of Ireland. 73
can only pefter their Country with a Progeny
oi li -ggars ? and who would confider a Cu-
rj^^» that fhould happen to have twelve Chil-
dren, rather as an Objed: of Ridicule than Pity:
It almofl: goes againft me to ojffer a ferious
Anfwcir to what deferves to be treated only
with Indignation and Contempt j " increafe
and multiply," is the great, the general Law
of our Omnipotent, all wife, and all gracious
-Creator, who has, in every Inftance, made
the public Good depend upon the lawful In-
dulgence of private Inftindt ; to encreafe and
multiply, is at once to enrich and to defend
the State, it is to repleni(h the Earth, and to
produce Candidates for Heaven ; one of the
moft extravagant and pernicious Abfurdities of
Popery is the imaginary Merit of Celibacy j
for, fetting all political Advantages afide, that,
which is Merit in one, would be Merit in allj
the World then mufl fubfifl only by a Devia-
tion from the narrow Path of Religious Per*
fedion, the Saviour muft, comparitively,
have fuffered in vain, and millions, upon
whom everlafting Felicity would have been
beftowed, as the Purchafe of his ineftimable
Death, would never be produced to claim
what he has purchafed for them. Is Poverty
then, among its other unmerited Curfes, to
F 4 pre-
74 Debates relative to the [Day V.
preclude a Man from fulfilling the firft and
great Command ; from continuing his Species,
and anfwering the principal End of his Crea-
tion ? If fo, we are ftill lefs excufable, for
fuffering the Labourers of the facred Vine-
yard to want, merely, that others, who nei-
ther plant, nor prune, may abound ; the Ef-
fects of Celibacy are an unfocial Mind, and
diftempered Body ; an impoverifhed Country
and an enfeebled State ; every Temptation to
Celibacy fliould therefore be removed, at once
to avert both a private and a public Curfe ;
fo that, in this View, the Argument for aug-
menting the Stipend of Curates will be
{li"engthened,and the Reproach, which is caft
upon thofe, who marry, thrown back upon
thofe who lay them under Temptations to
live fmgle j it muft ^Ifo, upon this Occalion,
be remembered that an Income, which leaves
a Curate poor, will neverthelefs make a La-
bourer rich. Wealth and Poverty depend
lefs upon the abfolute Poffeflions of the Indi-
vidual, than upon their Habits and Station in
Life ; a Man, who is placed in the Rank of
thofe who fpend four hundred a Year, will
be expofed to all the DiftrefTes of Poverty
with Fifty : He, who aflbciates only with
thofe, who get twelve Pence a Day, by ma-
nual
Day v.] Affairs of Ireland. 75
nual Labour, will procure the Conveniencies
of Affluence with eighteen Pence a Day,
which is not quite thirty Pounds a Year. If
I am now afked, how I propofe to remedy the
Evil of which I complain, I anfwer, that
the Remedy lies farther than my utmofl
Hopes will prompt me to afpire -, I mean
no more than to paliate, I know too well the
nature of the Difeafe, to attempt a Cure ; I
do not propofe the compelling all who re-
ceive the Nation's Money, to perform the
Duties for which it is paid ; I propofe only
that thofe, to whom the Duty is left, may be
enabled effedlually to fulfill it : But as, in
order to this, it is not neceflary that the offi-
ciating Clergy fhould have all the Wealth
that flows in upon the idle and voluptuous
Non-refjdent, I only wifh that a fufficient
Part fhould be paid them to anfwer the Pur-
pofes of their Calling, and afford them the
Comforts of Life : I am content that thofe,
whom Merit or good Fortune, have put into
PofTefflon of the original Revenue, fhould
retain the Reft. A Contribution from thefe,
comparitively fmall, would produce an ade-
quate Revenue for the Curate, and, confe-
quently, more good, both to Individuals and
to the State, and would more promote both
the
76 Debates relative to the [Dav V*
the temporal and eternal Intereft of Mankind
than an hundred Times the Sum applied in
any other manner j I do not, however, make
any fpecific demand, and I mean no more
by what I have faid, than that Gentlemen of
Ability may aflift in forming Heads of a
Bill for the End propofed.
The fecond Bill, Sir, that I have to pro-
pofe will fhew the Sincerity of my Decla-
ration, when I faid, that I did not wifh
the Revenues of the Church to be lefs ;
for it is calculated for the more eafy and
expeditious Recovery of Tythcs j part of the
good which I propofe by this Bill, is, in-
deed, merely the removal of pofitive Evil. It
is always of the moft pernicious Confequence
to fuffer the Laws in being to be either quef-
tioned or eluded ; great Care fhould, there-
fore, be taken, to have them clear and expli-
cit, and that they fliould be neither oppreflive
in reality, nor appearance ; if they are, in
themfelves, imperfedl and ambiguous, they
may be oppofed without the Difgrace of fac-
tious Difcontent, or a refractory Spirit : If
they are oppreffive, even in appearance, they
will be oppofed both from Motives of Interefl
and Honour, and, he that fuffers, or appears
to
D A Y V. ] Affairs c/Ireland. 77
to fufFer, by their Execution, will be encou-
raged, and fupported, by thofe who have no
immediate Intereft in the Queftion j Govern-
ment will become odious, and, in lome Cir-
cumftances, its Adminiftration imprad:i-
cable.
The Laws now in being, with Refpeil to
Tythes, are fo formed, as to enable the Parifh-
oners to litigate the Payment of them with
the Incumbent, to which they have frequent
and ftrong Temptations j there is a univerfal,
and very natural difinclination to pay that, for
which, it is thought an equivalent Service is
not done, the Redtor being too often non-re-
fident, and the Curate unable to difcharge his
Duty, by the NecefTity he is under, of holding
a Farm, or bufying himfelf in fome other
Employment, to maintain himfelf and his
Family : The Parifhoners are often very
juftly provoked by the improper Behaviour
of the Tythe Farmers, or Prodors, a fet of
People who are univerfally detefled, and ab-
horred, by the very Nature of their Duty, and
fometimes there are Difcontents between Pa-
riflioners, and a refident Minifler, arifino-.
merely from the Difficulty of obtaining the
Good- will of a great Number of People, of
various
yS Debates relative to the [Day V.
various Humours and Difpofitions, in Tran-
facflions, where Property is immediately con-
cerned, and the pecuniary Interefl of the
Parties is oppoiite. When the Caufes of Ani-
mofity are fo numerous, it can feldom hap-
pen, but that any one, who is fo far piqued,
or offended, as to do all in his power to dif-
trefs the Minifter, may get many to concur
in his Defigij, who wanted only the auxiliary
Motives of private Friendfhip,and Solicitation,
to take the fame Meafures before ; this natu-
rally brings on a Combination of the greateft
Part of the Parifh, if not of the whole, to de-
feat the Law for paying the Minifter his
Dues. Among other Expedients, which have
been found but too effectual for this Purpofe,
they all agree, to paper the Church, as they
call it, the fame Day ; that is, they give the
Notice, which the Law requires, that they
will all draw their Corn on the fame Day ; for
though they cut at different Times, yet they
contrive not to have different Days of draw-
ing : By this Means the Law is eluded, and
the Minifter diftreffed in the higheft Degree ;
for, in a Parifh of many Miles extent, and,
but thinly inhabited, it is impoflible for the
Minifter, to procure a fufficient Number of
Horfes and Carriages, to draw, even a tenth
Part
Day v.] u4f airs of Irelahu. 79
Part of his Tythes, on the Day appointed ;
for thofe, who combine to fummons him to
draw them, combine alfo to deprive him of
the Power of fo doing, by refufing to let to
hire any Horfes for that Purpofe : It alfo,
fometimes happens, that they refufe him a
convenient Place to draw them to, the Confe-
quence in both Cafes is, that the Tythes are
left in the Field, and then, we all know what
becomes of them. The Minifter, having no
Remedy at Law, is therefore compelled to
compound for his Tythes at, perhaps, one
fourth of their Value, if his Parifhoner hap-
pens to prefer Intereft to Revenge -, if not,
which is no rare cafe, he will not compound
upon any Terms, and fo the Tythe is entirely
wafted and lofl to both Parties alike. Thus,
Sir, the Laws for the Maintenance of Minif-
ters, with a View to eftabliOi the Principles
and Practice of Charity, do, at prefent, dia-
metrically counterad: their Intention ^ they
are the Fountain of " Hatred, Malice, and
all Uncharitablenefs," between thofe who
ought to be conned:ed by more than common
' Philanthropy, by filial and parental Affec-
tion, not " according to the Flefh but the
Spirit," not founded upon temporal but e-
ternal Things. I know it may be faid, and
with
So Debates relative to the [Day V,
with great Reafon, and Truth, that Tythes
will never be chearfully paid, till the Duty
for which they are paid is performed ; till
the Minifter maintains the Charadler of the
good Shepherd among his Flock ; and no
longer leaves them a Prey to the Wolf, or to
the Fox : But, it is alfo true, that no Vir-
tue, no Piety, no Benevolence, however ar-
dent, uniform and exemplary, would, as the
Law now ftands, always preferve that Union
and Harmony, between a Minifter and his
Parishioners, which is eflentially neceflary to
anfwering, in any Degree, the important Pur-
pofes of his Function : The Uncertainty and
Defedtivenefs of the Law leaves room for
Litigation, and every Litigation is founded,
upon a Suppofition, that the Minifter exads
more than his due j if the Suit is determin-
ed in favour of the Minifter, the Evil does
not ftop ; the Minds of both Parties have
been too much enflamed, during the Conten-
tion, to become cool when it is overj the
Paridioner, though compelled to pay, will
ftill want an inward Convid:ion, that the Law
originally intended what it is now tortured
to enforce; he will impute his ill Succefs
to the Chicanery of the Courts, to the fupe-
rior Influence of his Opponent, or to the Ig-
norance,
i
DavV.] j4fairs of Ireland. 8i
norance, or perhaps Perfidy, of the People,
with whom he intrufted the Management of
his Caufe ; the Minifter, having endured every
outrage that the fuppofed Sufferer by extor^
tion could offer, will confider him as a ma-
lignant and inveterate Enemy, whom nothing
can reconcile,, and upon whom, therefore, all
kindnefs and forbearance will be left : At
the fame Time, he, who by his Poverty is ob^
jiged to pay, without Litigation, what ano-
ther Litigates, will imagine that Advantage
is taken off his Inability to defend his Right,
to infringe it ; that he is opprelfed by an un-
relenting Tyrant, who, under pretence of
taking care of his Soul, is picking his Pocket,
and making the Law itfelf an Inflrument of
Cruelty and Injuftice : When once the Mi-
nifler, and his Parifhoners, come to be diftin-
guifhed by the unfriendly Appellations of
Plaintiff and Defendant, or what is more
hateful and bitter of Premovent and Repug-
nant *, there is an end of Pafloral Affecftion,
of Efteem and Friendfhip, of Reverence and
Duty J to addrefs them as " dearly beloved
* The Terms ufed for Plaintiff and Defendant in
the Biftiop's Court.
in
82 Debates relative tO the [Day V„
in the Lord," becomes a Mockery and a
Prophanation, and, I think, we may fairly
conclude, that where Charity is wanting,
there can be no Religion that is profitable to
Man, or pleafing to God. It is to Animofities
thus raifed and fomented, that the late violent
and unnatural Commotions are in a great mea-
fure to be imputed ; the mere Payment, of
what the Law clearly and indubitably appoint-
ed, would never have raifed fuch a Ferment ;
it was produced folely by a Malignity that was
gradually encreafed by Difputation and Con-
tefl ; the principle Objed: of the Aflbciation,
and of the Oath by which it was bound, was,
Grievancies fuppofed to be fufFered by the
Act of the Clergy j and, having mentioned
this popular Refentment againil: the Clergy,
I mufl: add, from my own Knowledge, that
the DIftrefs of the Clergy in the Diocefs of
De7-r)\ the Infults, the Perfecution, the Cruel-
ties that they fuffered, would have been car-
ried to an Excefs fcarce to be parallelled in
Hiftory, had they not taken Refuge in that
true Afylum of Diftrefs, the glorious and ever
memorable City of jDtvn',within whofe Walls
no Treafon was ever fufFered to enter, and
within the Breafts of whofe Inhabitants no
Principle oflnjuftice, or Oppreffion, was ever
known
iJAvV.] Affairs of iK^hA-i^D. 83
known to lodge. At this critical Time,
therefore, it feems to be the indifpenfable
Duty of the Houfe, to think of fome Expe-
dient, to put it in the Power of the Clergy, to
fulfil the important Purpofes of their Calling,
by removing all Temptations to Strife, and
Debate, "and to flrike with theFift of Wick-
ednefs ;" and this, I think, would effectual-
ly be done, by enading fome plain, and ex-
plicit Law, by which, the Requifition of
Tythes fhould be made wholly the Ad: of
the Legiflature, and not of the Miniiler ; by
which his Allowance, from the ParifL, fhould
be afcertained, beyond poffibility of doubt,
and the Manner of paying it, fo determined,
as to fecute the whole to him at all Events,
and leave no Power, either to Cunning, or
Malignity, to defeat him of his Right. I
fliould think myfelf happy, if Gentlemen
Ivould give their Opinion upon a Matter of
fb great Importance, and, if any Perfon pre-
fent has Objedlions, I fhall think myfelf
greatly obliged to them, if they will afford
mean Opportunity of attempting, at leaft, to
remove them.
G Mr J-^
84 Debates relative to the [Day V,
Mr y-- H— H— , P. S.
Mr S ,
It gives me the greateft Pleafure to find
that the Sentiments, and Opinions, exprefled
by the R — t H — ble Member who Ipoke
laft, are exadly the fame with my own 5
I am alfo happy that he has, in fo mafterly
a Manner, anticipated all that I could have
vviihed to fay upon the Subjed: ; he has left
me nothing to do, but to bear my Teftimo-
ny, that it is a Subject of the highefl na-
tional Importance, and to rejoice, with every
Friend to this Country, that it has fallen un-
der the Confideration of a Gentleman, whofe
Influence and Abilities are fo extenfive, and
diftinguiflied. If I can give him any Affif-
tance, in fo laudable an Undertaking, I fhall
efteem it equally a Happinefs, and an Ho-
nour } and, as it has been fome time the Ob-
jed; of my Contemplation, I fliall watch for
every Opportunity of fo doing, and improve
fuch as offer, with the utmoft Diligence, and
Alacrity. If I can add any thing to what the
honourable Gentleman has already faid, it is
with Refped: to the Combinations, that have
lately
Day v.] Affairs of iR-Ei.An'D] 85
lately been formed againft paying the Church
Dues : Thefe Combinations, Sir, have been
attended with Circumftances more terrible
and alarming than is yet generally known ;
I have, upon my Eftate, in the Diocefs of
Waterford^ many Papifts, who are Tenants
at will, and, whom, I can, confequently, dif-
place, to their great Difadvantage, when ever
I think fit. When I heard that thefe People
were joining in a Combination againft the
Minifter of the Parifli, I dired:ed my Agent
to acquaint them, that, if they did join in
fuch Combination, I would difmifs them ;
they replied, that if I difmiiTed them, they
could not help it, it would be a Misfortune,
but it would flill be the leaft of two Evils -,
for they had better be difmilTed than have
their Throats cut, which would be the cer-
tain Cdnfequence of refufing to concur in the
Combination, I was folicitous to prevent. A
Combination, Sir, into which Alfociates arc
prefTed by the Fear of Death, and, in which,
therefore, many violate the Peace of the State,
contrary to their Inclination and Intereft, may
in a fhort Time fubvert the Conftitution, and
defeat all the Laws that have been enad:ed
to prevent public Evils, acifing from the
Growth of Popery. I am of Opirion, Sir,
G 2 that
86 Debates 7'elative to the [Day V.
that fuch a Law, as has been now recom-
mended, would greatly tend to prevent thefe
Combinations, by rendering them ineffectual,
and by removing all Colourof Litigation, and
Difpute. J, therefore, moft earneftly recom
mend the Confideration of it to this Houfe
and make this public Offer of fuch Service a
IS in my Pov/er.
i
Mr R — F — faid, that there was nothing
he more ardently widied, than to have the
Bill propofed, properly drawn up, and paffed
into a Law, and thought no way would be
fo effectual for that Purpofe, as to appoint a
Committee, in which, every one might give
his Advice and Opinion.
A Committee was appointed accordingly.
Mr E M .
MrS— ,
It will appear, by the Journals of this
Houfe, that an Order was made on the 13 th
of OBober^ for the deputy Clerk of the Rolls,
to bring in the InroUments of the Patents,
by which, the Offices of the Chancellor of
the E;ichequer, Mafter of the Rolls, and
Judgesy
Day v.] Affairs o/' Ireland. 87
Judges, have been granted. But I obferved,
that he has obeyed that Order only in part j
having brought in no more than the InrolU
ments of the laft Patents of the Mafter of the
Rolls, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
as it may be fafely taken for granted, that no
Arguments are necefiary, to prove that the
Orders of this Houfe ought to be pundually
and fully obeyed, I might, upon this Occa-
iion, content mvfelf v^ith obfervino; the De-
fault, and, requiring that it may be amended,
but, becaufe, I would not appear critically to
remark minute and trivial Negleds, I muft
obferve, that this Order was evidently made,
with a View to a very interefling and impor-
tant Enquiry ^ an Enquiry, Sir, whether
judicial Employments, of fuch Confequence
to the Kingdom, can be granted for Life, con-
iiflent with the Laws by which it is govern-
ed, the leaft Violation of which may make
way for a total Subverfion of our Conftitu-
tion ; and, I muft freely declare it, as my
Opinion, that, in order to determine this
Queftion, and to difcover how, and, in what
Inftances, the Grant of fuch Employments for
Life is fupported by Precedent, all the Enroll-
ments fmce the Revolution (hould be produc-
ed ; I fay, fince the Revolution, Sir, and, I
^3 fo
88 Debates relative to the [Day V.
fix that Period, becaufe, before the happy
Event, which then took place, fcarce any
regular SyHem of Government was eftablifli-
ed in this Kingdom : Britip Monarchs did,
in many Inftances, and in both Kingdoms,
" what was right in their own Eyes," an Evil,
which the Revolution was brought about to
prevent, by giving that Order, and Stability, to
our Conftitation, which, I am perfuaded, no
Gentleman here would be willing to have inter-
rupted or fhaken. I would not, however, antici-
pate the Debate, which this Enquiry will necef-
farily bring on, or prematurely throw out aSur-
mife, that the Crown had adted with Impro-
priety, or, even received erroneous Advice ;
I think, however, that the Enquiry fliould be
made, by confulting the Judges, the ableft
Lawyers, and all the King's Servants, or ra-
ther, by bringing it in a judicial Way into
fomc of the Courts ; for Lawyers, confulted as
to their private Opinion, may differ, and, we
know, do differ, even when there are no Mo-
tives of Interefl: to biafs their Determination ;
but, in a public and folem.n Enquiry, a public
and folemn Opinion will be obtained, in
which, perhaps, thofe who differed before,
may, either convinced by Argument, or influ-
enced by Authority of fuperior Weight, con-
cur j
Day v.] Affairs of iR^LAiiD, 89
cur J and, give me leave to fay. Sir, that I
think this Houfe would be highly Criminal,
tacitly, and implicitly, to acquiefce in any Adt
of the Crown, which might even be fufpecS-
ed of Illegality, without fetting fuch an En-
quiry on Foot, and availing itfelf of the
Lights it would produce, and the Determina-
tion in which it fhould ifTue. As to myfelf,
I confofs, I am of Opinion, that the granting
thefe Employments for Life, is illegal ; an O-
pinion, in which, I know I am very far from
being fingular -, this, however, I do not men-
tion as being alone of any Weight to deter-
mine the Queftion, but only as a Reafon for
Enquiry, by proving a Difference of Judge-
ment about it, and to put in a Claim, in be-
half of myfelf, and thofe who concur in my
Opinion, to our undoubted Right of having
a proper and conftitutional Method taken, to
confirm our Sentiment if true, and confute it
if falfe. I therefore, as a previous Step, move,
that the proper Officer may be direded to
fulfil, what I take to be his firft Orders,
which were to bring in all the Inrollments
of the Patents of the Maflers of the Rolls,
and Chancellors of the Exchequer, fince the
Revolution.
G4 Mr
^o Debates relative to the [Day V.
Mr y- H— if-, P. S.
Mr S ,
I do not get up, Sir, to oppofe what that
v/orthy Gentleman has moved for, no Per-
fon in this Houfe being more defirous to
have its Orders fully and punctually obeyed,
more zealous to facilitate a dnCi and impar-
tial Enquiry into the Legality of every Ad:
of the Crown, or, more truly follicitous to
maintain the conftitutional Rights of this
Nation, than myfelf j neither, Sir, do I rife
up with any Defign to anticipate the Debate,
on this important Affair, which muft take
Place when the main Queftion comes regu-
larly before us ; but, I get up to declare, that,
in dired: Oppofition to his Opinion, I moft
firmly believe, that, granting the Office of
Chancellor of the Exchequer for Life, is
neither illegal, nor unprecedented, as he has
fupported : This difference of Opinion, how-
ever, as he has juftly obferved, is the ftrong-
eft Proof of the Expediency of an Enquiry^
and, that fuch an Enquiry may be properly
made, I think the Officer ought, pundually,
to fulfill his firfl Orders. I think, far-
ther. Sir, that not only all the Enrollments,
fince
Day v.] Affairs of Ireland. yj
iince the Revolution, ought to be laid before
us, as necelTary to that Enquiry, but all the
Inrollments, fince the A61 of Henry the
Vllth, relative to judicial Employments ; for,
1 muft take upon me to fay. Sir, that Laws
and Precedents, before the Revolution, have,
and ought to have, their Force. It is true,
indeed, that the Proceedings of the Crown,
immediately before the Revolution, made a
Revolution necelTary j and I glory and re-
joice in the happy EfFe<5ts it prodyced : But,
Sir, there were Periods before that Crifis,
when our Government was in a refpedtable
and honourable State ; and, though it has
been juft faid, not to be the general Opinion,
that the great Employments in queftion have
been granted for Life, yet, I am not afliamed
to repeat, once again, that, in my Opinion,
it is legal fo to give them ; and, I know, that,
in more Inftances than one, they have been
fo given, fince the Statute oi Henry the Vlltb.
" Ordered, that the proper Officer do obey
his firft Order, and bring in all the Inroll-
ments of the Patents, by which the Offices
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mailer
pf the Rolls, and Judges;, have been granted."
A Mo-
92 Debates relative to the Day V.]
A Motion was then made by Mr R —
L — , that an humble Addrefs be prefented to
the Lord Lieutenant, that he will be pleafed
to order the Report of his Majefty's Attorney
and Sollicitor-General of this Kingdom, with
Refpedt to the Legality of granting the Office
of Chancellor of the Exchequer of this King-
dom, for Life, to be laid before this Houfe.
Mr J— H— H— , P. S.
Mr S ,
I rife, up, Sir, to oppofe this Motion,
which, I confider, as mofl improper and un-
precedented, and pregnant with the moft
pernicious Confequences. The Attorney and
Sollicitor-General, Sir, are Servants to the
Crown, and, it is their peculiar Office and
Duty, to give the Crown Information, when
confulted, concerning the Nature, Extent, and
Operation of the Laws, according to which
the Government of this Kingdom is admini-
ftered ; this Information they are fworn to
give faithfully, and, according to the Beft of
their Judgment, fo as neither to infringe the
Rights of the People, in favour of the Prero-
gative
Day v.] Affairs of Ireland. 93
gative, nor the Prerogative in favour of the
People ; and vt^hat Right, Sir, have we to re-
quire their Opinion to be laid before us ? It
is given, in Confidence and Secrecy, to the
Crown, by its own Servants, and is that very
Service which they are appointed to perform :
It is given, alfo, under the Sandion of an
Oath, and what other Security will the Na-
ture of the thing admit ? If the Opinion,
given by thefe Gentlemen to the Crown, was
liable to be canvafTed in this Houfe, and to be
made the Subjecfl of Debate and Conjecture,
perhaps of Cenfure and Invedlive, the Confi-
dence and Secrecy, under which it is given,
would be deftroyed, and they would find
themfelves under fuch Infiuence, and in fuch
a Situation, as would almofl, unavoidably,
prevent that perfect Freedom, which, it is ab-
folutely necefTary always to preferve and en-
courage, in order to enable them to fulfill the
Duty of their Office. But, Sir, I will venture
to go ftill farther : I will fuppofe, that we had
fufficient Reafon to conclude, that they had
given an erroneous Opinion, and, even that
they had willfully violated their Confcience,
their Judgments, and their Oaths, in order to
gratify fome illegal Defire, and jufi:ify fome
illegal Meafure, with a View to recommend
them-
94 Debates relative to the [Day V.
themfelves, by fo doing, to 'he Fountain of
Honour and Preferment : 1 fav, Sir, that, e-
ven upon this Suppolition, we fhouid have no
Right to require them to criminate them-
feh^es, by producing fuch Opinion to this
Houfe > I fay, themfelves, Sir, for, I confider
the Crown, and its Servants, as one ; and, I
will venture to fay, that no Inftance can be
produced, in which fuch Requifition was
made, even in Times, when, \ :rhaps, the
Rules of Justice were not fo clofely adhered
to as they ought. Beiides, Sir, what is now
moved for, is abfurd ; and, for that Reafon
alone, if tiiere was no other, I would oppofe
it; to what. Sir, does our Enquiry tend?
We are to judge the fame Queftion, which
has been put to the Attorney and Sollicitor-
General, we are not to judge them for judg-
ing it ; and we are to determine, Sir, accord-
ing to our Senfe of the lew, according to in-
dubitable Precedent, and according to our
own Information, and not according to the
Opinion of Lawyers, of whatPvank, or Ability
foever ; I Hiall, therefore, give my Voice a-
gainft the Motion as unprecedented, and, in
every Refpccft, improper.
Mr
Day v.] ^J^airs of Ireland, 95
Mr £— ikf— .
MrS ,
*' That the King can do no Wrong,'* is a
Maxim well known, and, I believe, generally
allowed ; but. Sir, I cannot fufficiently ex-
prefs my Surprize and Concern, at hearing
Opinions advanced, in this Houfe, from
which it muft neceflarily follow, that the
King's Minifters, or Servants, can do no
Wrong. We have been told. Sir, that the
King and his Servants are one, and, that we
have no Right to addrefs the King to ac-
quaint us with the Advice given to him by his
Servants, upon the Principle, that no Man is
to be required to criminate himfelf ; but this
Dodlrine, Sir, has the common Fate of Error
and Fallacy, it overturns the very Principle it
would eftablifh ; that the King can do
Wrong is true only upon a Suppofition that
his Servants may j and that they may be
called to an Account for fo doing : If they
cannot be called to an Account for doing.
Wrong, it is of very little Confequence to us,
whether their being liable to do Wrong is al-
lowed or denied. What is it to us, whether
they
96 Debates relative to the [Day V.
they can, or cannot do Wrong, if, when it is
allowed they do Wrong, we have no Reme-
dy ? And how are we to have this Remedy,
Sir, but by addreffing his Majefty, upon any
wrong or doubtful Meafure, to know what
Advice was given him concerning it, and
who was the Advifer ? Gentlemen have
talked much of Precedents in this Houfe, and
have very j'jftly fuppofed that Precedent im-
plies a Right, and confirms it j and, if fo, I
am fure we have moft abundant Proof that
this Houfe has a Right to addrefs the Crown,
to do, what is called criminating its Servants,
and that the Crown has complied with fuch
Addrefs. We have Precedents, Sir, enough,
upon Record, of corrupt Advifers of Kings,
who have betrayed the public Caufe, being
given up to public Juftice ; and, are we now
to condemn all thefe Precedents at once ? to
explode the Principle upon which they were
formed, and renounce the falutaryEffeds they
produced, by fuppofing, that the Crown and
its Servants are one, and, that when thefe
Servants are perfidious, and betray their royal
Mafler's higheft Intereft, by betraying that of
his People, he cannot be addrefifed to difclofe
their Advice, becaufe a Man ought not to
be required to criminate himfelfl I fay,
Sir>
Day v.] Affairs i?/' Ireland. 97
Sir, to difclofe their Advice, for, to favour the
Suppofition that the King can do no Wrong,
he is fuppofed only to carry the Advice of
others into Execution ; the Servants of the
Crown are anfwerable for every illegal or un-
conflitutional Adt that palTes the great Seal -,
yet the Ad: is not theirs, the Signature that
makes it valid is not theirs, and the Order
for paffing it is not theirs ; all thefe Adts are
the Ads of the Crov/n ; for v^hat, then, is
the Servant, or Minifter, anfwerable but for
his Advice, vs^ithout which thefe Ads would
never have been done ? And how are we to
acquire an Ability to judge of this Advice,
but by addreffing the Crown to lay it before
us, with all that has any immediate Relation
to it ? I will venture to fay. Sir, that thus
to addrefs the Crown is not only our Right,
but our Duty and our Intereft ; and it is alfo
the Intereft of the Crown to comply with
fuch Addrefs : If its Servants have been faith-
ful, the more ftrid the Examination of their
Condud, the more Honour they will ac-
quire ; if they have not, it will be equally
dangerous both to the Crown, and to the
Conftitution, to fcreen them. It has been
faid. Sir, that if the Advifers of the Crown
were to give their Opinion, under a Senfe of
their
8 Debates relative to the [Day V.
their being liable to have it canvaffed in this
Houfe, they would not be able to give it free-
ly : I confefs, Sir, this is the firll Time I
ever heard it advanced, that, throv/ing a
Weight only into one Scale, was a likelyj
Way to hold the Balance in Equilibrio ; what'
is fo likely to prevent a corrupt Minifter
from wronging his Judgment, and his Confci-
ence, to gratify fome unconftitutional Furpofe
in the Crown, as the Profpedt of being made
anhverable for his Perfidy, and fubjecftcd to
an Enquiry of this Houfe ? If, indeed,
by free, Gentlemen mean an Exemption
from all Ties, that reftrain Men from doing
Evil, I will allow, that the Counceilors of the
Crown v^^ill be lefs/m', under the Profoed; of
a parliamentary Enquiry, than otherwife j
but, 1 believe, no Gentleman prefent will be an
Advocate forfuch Liberty, either in them, or
in any other Member of civil Society j to
bring my Reafoning home. Sir, to the Cafe in
QuelHon, I fay, that the Chanceliorlhip of the
Exchequer is an Employment of the highefl
national Importance, that your Predeceifor
in that Chair enjoy'd it many Years with the
greatefl Honour, that it is now granted for
Life, and, that if fuch Grant fliould appear to
be contrary to Law, it is fuch an Innovation of
our
JDay v.] Affairs in Ireland.' 99
our Rights as thofe who advifed it ought
to be impeached for : Though I have
mentioned only the Poft of Chancellor of the
Exchequer, I would not be thought to except
that of Mafter of the Rolls, yet, by nam-'
ing thofe Offices, I mean nothing perfonally
againfl either of the worthy Gentlemen who
fill them ; I mean, only, that, what they en^
joy worthily, they fliould enjoy legally j and,
that, while we are adorning the Super-
ftrud:ure of our Conftitution, we {hould not
fubvert the Foundation. I am perfuaded, Sir,
that there are many Inftances of Impeach-
ment parallel to this ; Lord SomerSy Sir, was
impeached for the Advice he gave, with R^-
fpedt to the Partition Treaty ; others might
eafily be named, but, not to deviate farther
from the Point immediately in View, I mud
declare myfelf an Advocate for the Motion.
The R-t H— ble F— A--.
MrS ,
I am, abfolutely, overwhelmed with Aflo-
niflimcnt, to hear any Gentleman talk of im-
peaching two of the King's Servants, for giv-
ing their Opinion, to the beft of their Judg-
ment, upon Oath i I fay, to the beft of their
H Judg-
I GO Debates relative to the [Day V.
Judgment, for fo we muft fuppofe their Opi-
nion to be, and are bound to ad: according
to that Suppofition 3 the Proof of the con-
trary, with Refpedt to Advice, properly fo
called, to do, or not to do, any certain A(5l
in fufpence, being impoffible, before any
Judicature but that of him whofe Preroga-
tive it is to fearch the Heart : *' The Tree
may be known by its Fruit ;" and, a bad In-
tention may, in many Cafes, be certainly,
and therefore fairly inferred, from Advice to
a bad Adt : The Ad, therefore, advifed to be j
done, is the proper Subjed of Examination ;
but, if Gentlemen would not fuffer their Zeal
to out-run their Judgment, they would fee,
that, in the Cafe before us, there is no fuch
Thing as Advice ; there is no Ad performed
by the Parties, of which we can take Cog-
nizance, becaufe there is no Ad performed,
concerning which we can poffibly determine,
whether, with Refpcd to the Agent, it is
good or bad. The Opinion of the Attorney,
and Sollicitor-General, Sir, which Gentle-
men have affeded to call Advice, is given,
upon a Qu^cftion relative to what is, and
not to what 7?ia)\ or JJj all be. It relates, Sir,
to the Tenor and Effed of Laws now in
force among us, and which have long been
foj
Day v.] y^Jhirs of Ireland^ ioi
fo ; and, are the Attorney and Sollicitor-Ge-
neral, Sir, anfwerable for what thofe Laws
enable the Crown to do ? or, for what the
Crown may do, upon a Suppofition that it ex-
erts no Power, but fuch as thefe Laws give ?
The Attorney, and SoUicitor-General, Sir, are,
in this Cafe, anfwerable only for their Inte-
grity, and, even for their Integrity, they are
anfwerable only to God, as God only can
know whether they are, or are not, fincere :
As to the Cafe of Lord Somers, I can fcarce
perfuade myfelf that Gentlemen are ferious,
when they mention it as parallel to that in
queftion : Lord Somers advifed the doing a
certain A(fl, which was, then, a Contingency.
The Attorney and SoUicitor-General advife
no Acfl, but merely give an Opinion, with
Refped to what is, or is not, right by Laws
actually in being. If this is Advice, Sir,
a Man may juftly be called an Advifer, who
tells another, according to the beft of his
Knowledge, the Hour of the Day ; in fhort.
Sir, there is as much Difference between the
Cafe of Lord Somers^ who advifed the Partition
Treaty, and, that of the Attorney and Solli-
citor- General, who give their Sentiments, on
ft Point of Law, as, between giving a Man
my Ppinion of the Weather, and, advifing
H 2 Jiim
I02 Debates relative to the [DayV.
him to take a Journey. Befides, Sir, the
conferring any Favour upon an Individual, is
a Thing of fo private a Nature — ^
Mr E M — .
So private a Nature ! It amazes
me, Sir, to hear that Right Honourable Gen-
man, who w^as once fo great an Honour and
Ornament to the Law, make Ufe of that Ex-
preffion ; though the Object of the King's
Favour be an Individual, yet the Favour
conferred is fuch as interefts the Public in the
higheft Degree j it is one of the firft Offices
in the Kingdom, and, the Power it confers,
may be fo exerted, as to be of the moft fatal
Confequence to the Public j but, waving
this, Sir, the great Queftion is, whether the
giving this Office for Life, be it important,
or be it trivial, is not an Infringement of the
Law ? If it is not, whatever Danger may be
incurred by it, it behoves us to fubmit ; but
if it is, I hope no Gentleman here will think
of implicitly acquiefcing in it, under a No-
tion of its being of a private Nature,
Mr.
DaV v.] Affairs of Ireland. 103
Mr JV^ H^.
MrS ,
I am under very great Obligations to the
honourable Gentleman, who fits on the op-
pofite Bench, for confirming my Sentiments,
by declaring his own to be the famej and I
alTure you, Sir, that it has given me the high-
eft Opinion of his Judgment, which I fhall
for ever honour and refpeft. My Senti-
ment, Sir, which has had the Honour of be-
ing thus confirmed, is, that Lawyers ^0, and
that they Jhould differ, in Opinions, upon
Points of Law 5 I think, alfo, that it is very
proper for Lawyers, upon fome Occafions,
not only to differ from one another, but from
themfelves ; I believe there are many Gen-
tlemen prefent, who have found the Advan-
tage of it. If all Lawyers were to be of the
fame Opinion, what Subjeds could there be
for Litigation ? If there were no Subjed:s
for Litigation, there would very foon be no
Lawyers ; and, if there were no Lawyers,
what would People do for Advice, and, to
whom could even the Crown have applied
upon the great and momentous Occafion that
we are now confidering ? And, Sir, if the
H 3 iame
104 Debates relative to the [Day V.
fame Lawyer's Opinion was always to be the
fame in an Afternoon, as in a Morning, to
what Purpofe would Recourfe be had to any
of thofe cogent Arguments, which are now
known to alter it ? all Rhetoric, Sir, the mofl
powerful Rhetoric would be ufelefs, and that
which could never be ufed would never be
acquired y we fhould ftagnate in Stupefadlion
and Inactivity, for want of Motives to adt and
to think; fo that nothing lefs could happen
from ''all Lawyers thinking like each other,
and, from the fame Lawyers always thinking
alike, than what Gentlemen feem to have in-
ferred from much lefs Injury offered to the
Law, the total Subverfion of our Conftituti-
on, and Ruin of the State. I cannot fuffici-
ently admire and commend my worthy
Friend's Opinion, that my Brethren of the
Law ought always to be confulted, efpecially
upon important and public Occafions j it is
an Opinion from which great and manifeil
Advantages will refult, if it fliould be adopt-
ed ; and, I cannot but congratulate with my
Brethren, that it is adopted in a very confide-
rable Degree already. There are knotty
Points, which, even thofe auguft Fti fonages,
the Lords, to whom we, in this J j'a-ci Houfe,
'look up with an humble Senfe of our Inferi-
ority^
Day v.] Affairs of Ivi'E.LAiiY). 105
ority, may, poffibly, find it fomething diffi-
cult to difcufs ; they have, therefore, as it is
very fit and becoming that they (liould, the
Prime of our Lawyers for their Councellors ;
the Lawyer of a Lord, Sir, (hould not cer-
tainly be lefs than a Judge ; and, according-
-ly, we fee that our learned Judges, feated on
the foft Wool Pack, and diftinguifl:ied by the
fcarlet Robe, arc always at Hand, in their
Houfe, to be occafionally confulted by them,
to fave them the Labour of thinking, which
is, certainly, beneath the Dignity of Perfona-
ges, fo fublime and auguft. If it is fit, as my
worthy Friend has advanced, and, as I hearti-
ly agree, that Lawyers ought always to be
confulted, it is fit that we fliould have our
Lawyers too, and, it gives me great Pleafure
to fee that we are not without them ; look
which Way I will, fome of the learned Body
are flill in my Eye ; and, this, being the
Cafe, what need have we to look abroad ?
It would neither do us, nor our Lawyers Cre-
dit, to have Confultations, without Doors, to
explain or determine what they are expell-
ed to explain, and we are to determine with-
in. I humbly conceive. Sir, that this Affair,
great, and folemn, and momentous, as it i?,
may maintain its Dignity in Parliament, as^
H 4 well
io6 Debates relative to the [Day V,
well as In a Court of Law ; and be as fkill-
fully difcufled, and as wifely determined.
As to the laying the written Opinion of the
Attorney, and Sollicitor-General, before the
Houfc, I confefs, I do not fee what End it
will anfwer. I have heard of a mechanical
Philofopher, who, having fpent many Years
in the Difcovery of the perpetual Motion, at
laft invented a Machine, confifting of a great
Variety of Wheels, Levers, Pullies, and other
Powers, which would draw a Cork out of a
Bottle, very nearly as well as a Cork-Screw;-
We have the Attorney and Sollicitor-General
here with us, and, inftead of the round about
Way of addreffing to have the Opinion they
wereof fome time ago, laid before us, inftead of
ha\ing Recourfe to the Machine with Wheels,
and Levers, and Pullies, let us afk them their
Opinions at once, and draw the Cork out of
the Bottle ourfelves. There are, to be fure,
many Objedions againft examining Perfon$
*viva voce. A worthy Gentleman, at the Bar,
once told a Judge, that he had no lefs than
twenty fuch Objections j and, being allowed
to declare them, he faid, that the firft was,
that the Man was dead. This was allowed
to be fatisfadtory, and the other nineteen were
p.ot required. What they were, I cannot
take
Day V.J u^Jah's of i^EL AND. 107
take upon me to fay, but, Sir, as the Gentle-
men, whofe Opinion we defire to know, are
not only living, but prefent, and able, and wil-
ling, to give the Satisfaction required, 1 do
not think any one of the twenty Objedtionsi
whatever they were, can be fupported againft
them. What their Opinion was, I cannot
tell, and, if I could, I might be equally at a
Lofs to know what their Opinion is ; as the
Gentlemen, therefore, are ready to anfwer for
themfelves, I muft, with the greateft Defe^
rence to the Opinion of my worthy Friend,
declare myfelf againft the Motion.
Jit palled in the Negative, y^ to 32,
SATUR-
io8 Debates relative to the [Day VI.
SATURDAY, 0^.29, 1763.
SIXTH DAY.
Mr y-^H—H-^, P. S.
MrS ,
AS it is of the higheft Importance, to
prevent the Monopoly of Coals in this
City, and the Extortion which a Monopoly
never fails to produce, and, as an Adt was
palTed laft Seffions for this Purpofe, I think
it is very proper, that we (hould enquire how
far that Adl has been effedual, in order to
continue it, or amend it, as fliall appear to be
hecefTary ; and, I hope the worthy Gentle-
men, who, by that Ad:, were appointed to
carry it into Execution, will not think it amifs,
that it fhould be the Defire of this Houfe,
that they fliould attend, to give what Infor-
mation they can upon the Subjedl, and in-
form the Houfe, in what manner they have
fulfilled the Trufl: repofed in them. I, there-
fore, beg leave to move, that a Committee
may be appointed to take into Confideration,
aq
DavVL] ^fairs o/lRELAViD. tog
an A(5t to prevent the exceflive Price of Coals,
in the City of Dublin^ and, whether the faid
A61 is proper to be continued, and, whether
any, and what Amendments be neceffary, to
be made therein j as alfo, to enquire into the
•Condud of the Officers, intruded with the
Execution of the faid A6t.
It was then moved, that the Call of the
Houfe, which, by Order, now ftands for
next Monday^ be adjourned till Tuefday^ the
Day following.
To this, Mr H — F — obje6led, and faid,
that he believed it was underftood, that the
very interefting and important Quefiion, con-
cerning the Peniions, was to come on, when
the Call iliould take Place, and, he was both
againft deferring it, and lofing a Day ; he
obferved, that the Houfe fat but fix Months
in two Years, a fpace of Time, which, if
every Hour of it was employed, in the Bufi-
nefs of the Nation, would belittle enough to
do it with the Deliberation and Attention it
required, and, that, as a great Encroachment
had already been made upon that Time, by
late Meetings, and RecelTcs, he was unwillii\^
that
no Debates relative to the [Day VL
that another Day fhould be loft j he faid, he
feared allb, that it might be made a Prece-
dent to lop off a fixth Part of the Time, that
it was their Intereft, as well as Duty, to im-
prove, which was his principal Reafon againft
it, and that to the Motion, fimply confidered,
he thought it fcarcely worth while to ob-
jed.
MON.
Day VII.] Jf air so/ Ireland, m
MONDAY, Nov, i, 1763.
SEVENTH DAY.
TH E R— t H— ble Mr J5— B— pre-
fented a Petition of Henry Cottingham^
and Jafnes Ki?ig, of the City oi Dublin^ Mer-
cers, fetting forth the LolTes by them fuftain-
cd, by the Journeymen Weavers, and Ap-
prentices, of the City and Liberties, by cutting
to Pieces many rich and beautiful Silks, and
Velvets, then in the Looms of the Petitioners,
and the Materials, Tackle, and Silk prepared
for carrying on a Silk and Velvet Manufac-
ture, all the Property of the Petitioners 5 and
that the faid mifguided People (become fen-
iible of their Injuftice to the Petitioners, and
of the great Injury and Damage they have
brought upon themfelves and their Country)
have requefted the Petitioners, to improve,
and advance the Silk Manufadure Q>i Ireland-,
which, the Petitioners, from their heavy Lof-
fes, are unable to do without the Aid of Par-
liament 3 and praying Relief.
ThQ
112 Debates relative to the [Day VII.
The Petition being read, Mr B — moved,
that it might be referred to the Conlideration
of a Committee, and, he was feconded by Mr
J— G— , the S. G. as follows : . ■ I
Mr S— ,
As to the Allecrations of the Petition, which
the R — t H— ble Member has propofed to '
refer to the Committee, they are certainly the i
proper Objcdis of the Enquiry of that Com- *
mittee, as they relate particularly to the Pe-
titioners, but, as they are of a Nature that
deeply affedls the public Peace and Security,
repugnant to all Duty, and fubverlive of all
Order, they deferve the moft ferious and fo-
lemn A'^ention of this Houfe. It appears,
by the Petition, that the treafonable Infurrec-
tion?, which have fo frequently, of late, inter-
rupted the public Tranquillity in remote
Parts of the Kingdom, have now reached the
Capital J infulted public Juflice on her Seat
and fliaken the Government at its Centre j
we are now called upon, not only to redrefs
a private Wrong, but to aflert the Caufe of an
injured Nation : Not to reprefs the Violence '
here, by fome fignal Exertion of Legillative
Au-
Day VII.] y^ffatrs of Ireia-^d. 113
Authority, would be to encourage it elfe-
where, for what will the Infurgents of remote
Provinces conclude from the Impunity of
thofe at the Metropolis, but, that the Go-
vernment, confcious of its own Weaknefs, has
furrendered at Difcrction, and given up the
common Rights and Privileges, which it
could no longer defend, to the Mercy of a
diiTolute and outrageous Rabble ? That I
may not be thought to aggravate the Evil, by
a rhetorical Difplay of imaginary Guilt, and
imaginary Confequences, I will take the Li-
berty, Sir, to give you a plain Narrative of
the Fadt. A confiderable Dealer in this City,
who not only carries on a very extenfive
home Manufa6lury, but a refpedlable fo-
reign Commerce, thought proper to import
a large Quantity of French Silks, whether, as
Patterns for weaving Silks here, or for Sale,
it matters not -, the Importation, with either
View, is equally lawful ; upon this, a Num-
ber of Manufadurers, taking it into their
Heads to prohibit, as a private Injury to them-
felves, what the Law allows as a national Be-
nefit, ^got together in a riotous Band, armed
themfelves in a hoftile Manner, and, profef-
fing no lefs than Robbery, and Murder, befet
the honeft Trader's Houfe, demanded, that
114 Debates relative to the [Day VIL
he fliould be delivered up to death, and,
that his Silks, both thofe imported, and in
the Loom, fhould be put into their Pofleffi-
on 5 when thefe Proceedings were oppofed
by a legal Force, under proper Officers, they
flew in the Face of Juflice, openly defied Au-
thority, and, having overpowered the Magif-
trate, and his Affiftants, they periifted in their
Violence, to the Affright, and Confufion of
the whole City : It has been obferved, that
in the Apparatus of Death there is more
Terror than in Death itfelf ; thefe Wretches,
therefore, that the Murder they were pre-
pared to perpetrate, might lofe none of its
Effe6l, carried a Coffin in Froceffion to the
Houfe of the Victim they had fingled out,
fwearing, with horrid Imprecations, that they
would carry off his dead Body in it : It hap-
pened, however, that he effed:ually fecreted
himfelf from their Fury, till it, in fome De-
gree, fubfided, but, they forced him to ratify
fuch Conditions as they thought fit to di(flate,
by the moft folemn Oaths j yet this, what-
ever Security they might think it, for his Be-
haviour in the Time to come, did not fatisfy
their Revenge for what was paft ; they, there-
fore, broke violently into his Work-fhop, and
War^houfes, cut great Quantities of valuable
Day VII.] Affairs of Ikela^b. ii^
and beautiful Silk and Velvet to pieces, broke
his Looms, and, either, ftole or deftroyed
whatever elfe they could lay their Hands upon.
While this was doing, the unhappy Vidim,
his Family, and his Friends, were in an Agony
-of Confternation and Terror ; the City itfelf
was flruck with a Panic, and no Man knew
where the Violence might flop. It is a
dreadful thing, Sir, for a licentious Rabble to
wreft the Sword out of the Hands of Juftice,
and to enforce, with Tumult, and Violence,
the Execution of Laws which they apprehend
to be eluded ; but, it is an Evil that admits of
no Aggravation, for them to impofe Laws of
their own, in Oppolition to thofe of the State ;
and, invade, not only Property, but Life,,
when they happen capricioufly, to difapprove
the Conduct of thofe, by whom, they do not
fo much as pretend any Law has been broken.
I fay. Sir, this is a Crime, which, with Re-
fpedt to itfelf, can admit of no Aggravation,
but with Refped: to the Criminals, it may j
if it appears to be committed not by the Ig-
norant and Thoughtlefs, but by the Knowing
and Confiderate ; not by the Obfcure and Indi-
gent, but by thofe, whofe Station and Pro-
perty give Influence to their Example j not
by thofe who are in a fubordinate and fervile
I State,
1 1 6 Debater relathe to the [Day Vlt.
State, but by " thofe that are put in Autho-
rity over them,'* how does the Guilt accu-
mulate upon their Heads, and, of how much
feverer Punifliment arc they worthy ? I am
forry to fay, Sir, that this Guilt has been ac-
cumulated, and this Punifhment deferved in
the Cafe before us : My particular Situation,
Sir, has acquainted me with the whole of
this Tranfaftion, from its firft Caufe, to its
laft Effedts, and, I find myfelf, with inex-
prefTible Regret, obhged to declare, that it
appears with the flrongefl Evidence, upon
various Examinations, that the Perfons, who
gave rife to it, are no other, than the Mafter
and Wardens of the Corporation of Weavers,
and, that the poor deluded Wretches, who,
adually did the Mifchief, were fpirited up by
them, a(5led under their Influence, and were
little more than the Inftruments of their
Wickednefs j yes. Sir, the Mafter and War-
dens of that Corporation, who are intrufted
by their Charter, with a very confiderable
Power, in confidence that they would ufe it
for the Regulation, and good Government of
its Members, have, in that very Hall, and in
thofe very Seat^, where, they ought to have
exerted themfelves "as a Terror to evil doers,
and, a Reward to thofe who do well," per-
verted
I
Day VII,] Jf airs of Ireland^ ii^
verted their Inftltutlon, and abufed their
Power, to the worft of all Purpofes, by redu-
cing the Poor, and the Dependant, to Tu-
mult and Rapine, Violence and Murder, the
Ruin of Innocence, and the Subverfion of Go-
vernment. It appears amongft other Things,
that the Mafter of the Corporation actually
fent AmbafTadors on behalf of the Infurgents^
to Mr Cottingham^ in order to bring him into
a Capitulation with them, and prevail upon
him, to give up the offending Silks, to be
burnt, in compliance with their Demands,
infinuating, that there were no other Means
to prevent more fatal Confequences ; upon
thefe Fadts I fhall make no Comment, as, I
am perfuaded, no Comment is neceffary -, the
Expediency of taking the mofl: effectual Mea-
fures, to prevent fuch rebellious Infurredtions,
for the future, is felf-evident, as they ftrike, I
had almofl: faid, at the very Exiilence of our
Conftitution ; if I have trefpaffed long upon
your Time, by an Endeavour to point out the
Evils, that call aloud for a Remedy, in their
moft ftriking Colours, I flatter myfelf, that
I (hall be excufed, without an Apology, as I
had no View in difplaying the Malignancy of
the Difeafe, but, that the Method of Cure
might be vigorous and fpeedy. As the End
I 2 of
T i8 Debates relathe to the [Day VII.
of War is Peace, (o the End of Juftice is Mer-
cy : Whatever Punifhment deters from
Vice, prevents Mifery j and, I am fure, I
cannot more eflTcdiually exert my Benevo-
lence, than by calling out the Terrors of the
Law, againft Pradtices which cut off Reward
from Labour, and Security from Innocence ;
which, corrupt Poverty into Wickednefs, and
endanger the Vitals of the Conftitution, by
fpreading a Gangrene in its Members.
The R— t H— ble P— A— then got up,
and exprelTed his perfedl Agreement with the
learned and worthy Member that fpoke laft,
with Refpe6t to the Neceflity of putting a
flop, immediately, to the unbounded Licen-
tioufnefs of the lower Clafs of People j a Li-
centioufnefs, which, he obferved, was fo dif-
ferent from the true Spirit of Liberty, that it
was impoffible they fhould fubfift together ;
he faid, alfo, that he could not, but greatly
admire his pathetic, and animated Defcription
of the Enormities of which he complained,
and the various DiftrefTes, which they pro-
duced : But, he faid, he hoped to be excuf-
ed, for differing a little from him, as he could
not lay the Riot, wholly, to the Chaige of his
BrethreUy the Weavers ; (this caufed a great
Laugh,
Dav Vri.] j^jYiirs of Ireland, ug
Laugh, as he had juft been complimented
with the Freedom of their Company) but,
was rather of Opinion, that it was raifed, and
carried on, by their Journeymen and Appren-
tices ; efpecially, as they frequently entered
into Combinations agai ifl their Mafters them-
felves, demanding, in a clamorous and tu-
multous Manner, fometimes, the raifing their
Wages, and, fometimes, the fhortening their
Hours of Work.
Mr y- H— ^-, P. S.
MrS , -
I rife up to give my Opinion, that the
Allegations of the Petition are an Objedl high-
ly worthy of a parliamentary Enquiry ; and,
that as two worthy Members of Society have
greatly, and moft unjuftly, fuffered by the il-
legal Proceedings of an enraged Mob, to the
great Injury of a Manufadure, which they
were carrying on, very much for the Benefit
of the Nation, it is but juft, that they fliould
be redreired,as well, upon their own Account,
as upon that of the Public ; I was alfo, the
more ready to rife, on this Occafion, as, I
over heard fome Gentlemen near me, make
I 3 an
120 Debates relative to the [Day VJI,
an Obje<5tion to the Petition, which it is in
my Power to remove j they faid, that a Peti^
tion of this Kind was a Novelty, andunfup-
ported by Precedent; but this is by no
means the Fad, for, I remember, among other
Inftances, a parallel Cafe, that happened in a
neighbouring Kingdom, in the Year 171 5 ;
At that Time there were great Riots among
the Woollen Manufadurers, and great Da-
mage was done, upon which the Sufferers
applied to Parliament, and a Compenfation
was allowed them of above five thoufand
Pounds ; and, now, that my Endeavours may
not be wanting, to continue the good Hu-
mour, which was raifed by the worthy Gen-
tleman who fpoke laft, and, that Gentlemen
may have their laugh out, which, my getting
up interrupted, I muft fay, that the Weavers
are my Brethren too, and that, I am very wil-
ling to hope, they are not fo culpable as the
worthy Gentleman, who feconded the Mo-
tion, feems to think them ; I am perfuaded,
that he fpeaks from the Convidion he has
received by the Examination, but, perhaps,
he has feen the Examinations only of one
Side, and that Story which is good till ano-
ther is told, is not always fo afterwards. As
So the Mailer and Wardpns of the Company,
I have
Day VII.] Affairs of Ireland, i2r
I have frequently converfed with them upon
the Subject ; and, if they are not the greatefl:
Hypocrites, as well as the wickedefl: Men in
the World, they are wholly Innocent in this
Affair ; for they have afferted their Innocence
with the mofl folemn and repeated Aflevera-
tions.
Mr 7— G— , S. G. in a fhort Reply, gave
fome farther Reafons, why he believed the
Mafter and Wardens of the Corporation, to
have been effentially, and originally, concern-
ed in the Riot : And Mr C — C — , made
a (hort Speech, with a View to palliate what
had been advanced againfl the Mafter Wea-
vers, and to throw the whole Blame upon
their Journeymen.
1 4 TUBS.
122 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
TUESDAY, Nov. 2, 1763.
EIGHTH DAY.
The R-t H— ble F- A—.
MrS — ^,
I Have, in my Hand, a Petition, figned by
the Mayor, Corporation, and principal
Inhabitants of the City of hondonderry ; it
has always been held. Sir, that the rewarding
eminent Merit, in particulars, is a general
Benefit, by flimulating others to Emulation,
and exciting them to the fame Defert, by
hopes of the fame Advantage. I, therefore,
flatter myfelf, that I fhall not be thought un-
neceflarily to take up your Time, by faying
a few Words in favour of your prefent Peti-
tioners. If this Nation had been fo happy as
to have its Hiftory written by any Au-
thor of Abilities equal to the Work, the
Adlions of the Citizens of Derry^ would have
furnrflied its moft fhining Paffages; PafTages,
which would have embellillied the moft il-
luftrious Hifiory, 'and highly honoured the
moft heroic Nation. The want of fuch Hif-
torians.
DayVUI.] Affairs of Ireland. 123
torians, is, indeed, the lefs to be regretted, as
we have the moft authentic Records of fuch
Loyalty, Magnanimity, and public Spirit, in
that antient, proteftant, and unconquered City,
as would {hake the Credit of any Hiflorian,
however eminent for Impartiality and Truth,
if they depended merely upon his Teftimony.
The Records I mean, Sir, are the Journals
of this Houfe, and of the Commons in Eng-
la?id J you will there find the Citizens ofDer-
rjy fupporting the Laws, the Religion, and
the Liberty of their Country, in defiance ofall
the Miferies, that the Cruelty of War, aggra-
vated by the fanguinary Rage of Bigotry, and
Superftition, could bring upon them ; to fay,
that they gave their Lives a Ranfom for the
Bleffings, which their Pofterity enjoy, is to
wrong them of more than half their Praife,
if we do not confider the Manner, in which
it was paid ; the Pompof War,and the Sound
of the Trumpet, awake in almoft every Mind
a fudden and tumultuous Courage, which,
rather overlooks Danger, than defies it ; and,
rather fufpends our Attention to Life, than
reconciles us to the Lofs of it ; the Soldier
ruflies forward with Impetuoiity, and, when
he hears the Thunder of the Battle, can glory
in the Elation of his Mind ; but when Death
ap-
124 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
approaches, with a flow and filent Pace,
when he is feen at leifure, and, contemplat-
ed in all his Terrors, the Spirits fhrink back
to the Heart, the Love of Fame, and, even
the Hope of Heaven is chilled within us, and
the Man at once prevails, not over the Hero
only, but the Saint. Of the few, that, in
this Hour of Horror, have furmounted the
Senfe of their own Condition, who is he that
has looked with the fame Equanimity upon
the Partner of his Fortune, and the Pledges
of his Love ? When a Wife, or a Child, has
been a Hoftage, and the Tyrant's Dagger has
been lifted to their Breaft, how has the Hero
and the Patriot melted in the Hufband and the
Father! By what Name, then, fhall we dif-
tinguifh the Virtue of the Citizens of Derry,
who did not rufh upon Death for their Country,
in the momentary Ardor of fudden Conteft,
in the Pomp and Tumult of the Field of Bat-
tle, but waited his deliberate, though irrefifta-
ble approach, (liut up within their own
Walls, in the gloomy Receffes of Sicknefs and
Famine j and who, while they felt the Pangs
of Hunger, undermining Life in themfelves,
beheld, alfo, its deftrudive Influence in thofe
whofe Lives were ftill dearer than their own ;
who heard the faltering Voice of helplefs In-
fancy
Day VIII.] Affairs of IscELA^n, 125
fancy complain, till the Sounds, at laft, died
upon the Tongue ; and, who faw the languid
Eye of fainting Beauty exprefs what no Lan-
guage could utter, till it was clofed in Death I
In this Trial to (land firm, in this Conflict to
be more than Conquerors, was it not, alfo, to
be more than Men ! To have been the
Birth-Place, or the Refidence of one fuch
Hero, would have fired a thoufand Cities
with Envy, and have rendered the meanefl
Hamlet illuftrious for everj what, then, is
JDerry^ whofe whole Inhabitants were anima^
ted by this divine Virtue, like a common
Soul ! Nor is it ftrange, that their Pofterity
Should be ftill diftinguidied by the fame Spi-
rit J for, how is it poffible they fliould hear
the Recital of thefe Wonders, and enjoy the
Benefits they procured, without glowing at
once with Gratitude and Emulation : Their
Virtue, from whatever Caufe, has been long
hereditary already. In the Civil Wars of
1 64 1, Derry was the impregnable City,
which baffled all the Force of the Rebels, to
the Encouragement and Support of the whole
North of Ireland. In the glorious Revoluti-
on of 1688, a Crifis, perhaps, the mofl im-
portant that ever happened in any Age, or a-
py Country, Derry flood forth the Bulwark
.of
126 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
of the Laws, Religion, and Liberty, of this
Nation ; to Derry we all owe, in a great
Meafurc, the ample and peaceable Pofleffion
of them in which we are happy at this Day ;
and, how Derry behaved, daring the late In-
furrecflions, we need not be told. A Series
of Acknowledgments and Thanks, recorded
in the Journals of this Houfe, from its firft
Inftitution, to the prefent Time, are, at once,
the moft authentic Teftimony of the diftin-
guiihed Merit of this City, and its moft glori-
ous and permanent Reward. But, though all
private Encomium may be precluded, as an
Honour to Derry ^ it may, perhaps, be indul-
ged as a Pleafure to me, and, let me add, to
thofe, alfo, before whom I fpeak ; for, I am
confident, that, among all who hear me, there
is not one, who would not, from the fame
Motive, and, with the fame Pleafure, have
fpoken of her Citizens as I have done, except
where my Language has been inadequate to
my Ideas, and there, I am confident, they
would have fupplied the Defed:. As to the
Allegation, and the Prayer of the Petition,
though, as I obferved, it is a general Benefit
to reward Merit, yet, I muft do my Confti-
tuents this farther Juftice to fay, that, if what
they folicit, had not, exclufive of this Princi-
ple,
Day VIIL] A fairs of Ireland. 127
pie, been a national Advantage, they would
not have made it the Object of their Solicita-
tion ; that Modefty and Moderation, vi^hich
are the infeperable Concomitants of Merit,
and that Uprightnefs, and Generofity of Mind,
which would difdain to requeft the Applica-
tion of any Part of the public Treafure to a
private Ufe, would have prevented them.
The Trade of the City of Derry^ Sir, is,
within thefe few Years, greatly increafed, with
Refped to Imports and Exports ; the fingle
Article of the Linen Manufadure, amounts to
no lefs than 200,000/. per Ann. There are,be-
longing to this Port, four and twenty Ships,
from two hundred to three hundred Tons
burthen, and, I believe, there are very few
other Ports, in the Kingdom, which employ as
many ; but the Water is too (hallow, even at
high Tide, to float thefe VelTels to the Quay j
the River, alio, is fo narrow, as to render the
Navigation very inconvenient, fo that the
Merchants of Derry are obliged to pay eight
Pence a Ton for Lighterage of all Goods,
both in and out, and are conliderable Suffer-
ers by Rilque, Damage, and Delay. To
render this Part of the River more commo-
dious, and to deepen the Channel, will re-
quire about 1,600/. by the beft Computation
that
\
128 Debates reJathe to the [Day VIII'.
that can be made j the Sum is, comparative-
ly, very fmall, and the Advantage will be
great, not only to Derry\ but to the Nation in
general ; for every Encouragement given to
Trade, is like an Addition of vital Strength
to the Heart, which is immediately difFufcd
to the remoteft Parts of the Body. I, there-
fore, pray, that this Petition may be read.
The Petition was read accordingly, to the
Purport as fet forth above, and, it was order-
ed to be referred to a Committee ; upon
which a Committee was appointed accord-
ingly.
A Petition of Margaret AJJ:ii'orth^ Widow
oi 'Thomas Afiworth^ late of Den?iybrook^ in
the County of the City of Dublin, Linnen,
Cotton, Callico, and Paper Printer, deceafed >
praying Aid to enable her to carry on thofe
Manufad:ures, was prefented^ and read.
Mr T— M— then moved, that it might
be referred to a Committee.
Mr
Day VIII.] Affairs of Ir-ela^d. 129
Mr £- S- P-^.
MrS ,
I find that vaft Numbers of People have
come from every Part of the Kingdom, with
Petitions of this Kind, praying parliamentary
Aid to carry on different Manufactures ; and,
as it would be imprudent to detain them from
their Bufinefs, and cruel to keep them in Suf-
pence, it being impoffible to gratify half of
them, I think, it is fit we fhould know the
Senfe of the Houfe with Refpe6t to Petitions,
of this Kind in general : The granting of
Money, by Parliament, on thefe Occafions, is
a Praftice but of late Years ; however, I con-
fefs, that I was one of thofe who thought it
for the Benefit of Trade, by improving vari-
ous Manufactures into greater Degrees of
Perfection ; but Experience, Sir, from which
there can be no Appeal, has, at length, con-
vinced me that I was miftaken, and, that it has
produced an EffeCt direCtly oppofite to that
which was intended ; in fome Inftances it
has put an End to the very Manufacture it
was fuppofed to encourage, and, in others,
it has favoured a Monopoly, and reprefix:d the
Indufiry
J30 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
Induftry of many, by giving to a few an un-
due Superiority over them, which muft al-
ways be the Cafe, when large Sums of Mo-
ney are poured into the Hands of particular
Perfons ; I mean large, with Refpedl to the
Circumftances of thofe who receive them, and
fuch have been the fmalleft that Parliament
has thought fit to grant. I am very fenfible.
Sir, that Manufacturers {hould be encoura-
ged by all poiTible Means, and, that no Ob-
ject can be more worthy either of the Atten-
tion, or the Bounty, of Parliament. It is im-
pofiible that many fhould live, where few
can be employed j it is by Labour, only,
that the Inhabitants of a civilized Country
c.n fubfift J and it is, therefore, impoffible,
that any civilized Country fliould be popu-
lous, where there is little to do. As no
Country, that is not populous, can be either
flourifliing or ftrong, and, as it is manifeftly '
the Intereft of every Individual, that the
Country, in which he lives, fliould be both, it
follows, that the Encouragement of Manu-
tadures, by which, alone, Multitudes can be
employed, is elTential to the Profperity, if not
to the very Subfiftence of the State. Upon
this Principle, therefore, inftead of granting
large Sums, to particular Perfons, to difpofe of
as
\
bAY VIII.] j^ffalrs of Ireland. 131
as they pleafe, I think we fhould apply them
in hberal Premiums, for different Manufac-
tures, as they are brought to Market, in Pro-
portion to their ^Quantity and Excellence 5
this would be an univerfal Encouragement,
and would dlffufe an univerfal Spirit of Dili-
gence and Emulation, as every Man would
afpire to gain what was offered, not to this, or
the other Individual, but to whomfoever
fhould excel. I have, myfelf, within this
few Days, had many Petitions of the fame
Kind, with that now offered, put into my
Hand, all which I refufed to prefent, and,
fhall give it as my Opinion, that no more
fhould be received, and that one only fhould lie
upon the Table, to determine the Fate of the
refl.
Mr T — M— anfwered, that other Petiti-
bns, of the fame Kind, had been introduced,
without being objecfted to ; that he thought
it very hard his fhould be the firfl that was
fefufed, and, that he did not fee why he fhould
not have his JoSb done as well as another.
Mr £ — S — P — , in reply, declared, up-
6n his Honour, that this was the firfl Petiti-
on of the Kind that he had heard introduced,
K and.
I
1 3 2 Debatei relative to the [Day VIII.
and, that if he had been prefent, when others
were introduced, he would have objeded to
them J that he had the higheft Refpedl for the
honourable Member who introduced this,
and, he was fo far from meaning any Thing
like a perfonal Oppofition, that if he could
bring himfelf to fubmit to do a Jobb at all,
he would do his Jobb as loon as any Man's.
The Qoeftion being put, that the faid Peti-
tion be referred to a Committee, it was car-
ried in the Affirmative, by 69 againft z^^ ;
and a Committee was appointed accordingly.
Mr£— ^-P-.
Mr S ,
As I fliall always be difpofed to fubmit my
private Judgment to that of thisHoufe, Icon-
elude, that I had made a wrong Determina-
tion, as I fee the Majority is againft me, and
fliall, therefore, prefent many Petitions,
v/hich have been offered me, and which I
fliould, otherwife, have refufed. But, not-
withftanding the Divifion for reading this Pe-
tition, I am perfuaded that many Gentlemen,
who divided for it, mufl be extremely forry
to fee the pubHc Money lavifhed away in
JOBBS,
Day VIII.] j^ffairs of Ireland. 133
JoBES, which might be othervvife employed
to public Advantage : I am very forry that I
happened not to be prefent when the firfl
Petition of this Kind was introduced, that I
might have objeded againft it ; but, I hope,
fome Method will ftill be found to fignify the
Difinclination which, I am fure, the Houfe
has to thefe Applications.
Dr C— £— .
Mr S ,
I do not rife up to oppofe the worthy
Gentleman, who made the Motion with Re-
fpeftto the Petition, for, I believe, the utmoft
that he requires, is, that it fhould be referred
to a Committee, for them to enquire into the
Merits, and report to the Houfe ; but I am
very much againft Petitions of this Kind, in
general, and fo, I hope, every Gentleman
will be, who recollects the vaft Sums that
have been granted upon them, and the U{q
that has been made of the Money. I re-
member, a confiderable Sum was given lail;
Seffions to the Proprietor of a Glafs-Houfe
on the Strand, who, the Moment he got it,
inftcad of fetting himfclf to blow Bottles, fet
•his Houfe on Fire, blew it up, and then went
K. 2 about
134 Debates relative to the [Day VII t
about his Bufinefs. Large Sums were alfo
given to the Cambric Manufadory, and, the
next Thing we heard of it, was, that the
Proprietors were Bankrupts. One Delamain
got Money for making Rhone Ware, and the
Work has been difcontinued from that Time
to this. The Parliament has, alfo, difpofed
of large Sums, for the like Purpofes, by the
Dublin Society ; and, I think, fome Enquiry
ihould be made, whether the Money, with
the Difpofal of which they have been entruft-
ed, has turned to a better Account than what
we diflributed ourftlves. But an Incident
has happened, Sir, in this Debate, much more
alarming than the Mifapplication of Money
granted to Manufadurers 3 a Word has been
ufed as a Denifon of this Houfe, which is a
Difgrace to Language, as it exprefles what
cannot exifl without difgracing human Na-
ture, by the moft flagitious Sacrifice of pub-
he to private Intereft, under a Pretence of
Patriotifm, and Attention, to National Advan-
tages. I have heard, Sir, the Word Jobb,
and, I have heard it ufed as an avowed Name
for a Meafpre recommended to Parliament,
under Colour of encouraging a Manufacture :
Do Gentlemen, then, acknowledge the bring-
ing in, and foliciting Jobbs ? and, do tlie
Mem-
DavVIIL] Affairs of Iri.1. Ann, 135
Members of this Houfe, profelTedly, do
JoBBS for one another, inflead of fulfilling
the Truft repofed in them by their Conftitu-
ents, and tranfadting the Bufinefs of the Na-
tion ! I am now, unfortunately, feated be-
tween two Gentlemen who have banded the
Word JoBB from one to another in a Senle,
and Manner, which makes it juflly to be ap-
prehended, that we have loft not only Virtue,
but Shame j that we have done Evil till we
have miftaken it for Good. One afks,
" Why {hould not I have my Jobb done, as
well as another ?" he is anfwered, from the
oppofite Side of the Houfe, " If you will do
my JoBBs, I will do yours." The very Air,
3ir, that conveys fuch Sounds, is contaminat-
ed, and it has crolTed me till it has made me
fick ) the Word Jobb is not only an odious,
but a peftilential Monofyllable, and, I moft
iincerely hope, that 1 {hall never again hear it
mentioned in this Houfe, without the mofl
opprobrious Epithets that can poflibly be in-
vented, as none can fufficiently exprefs its
Turpitude and Malignity *.
K 3 Mr
* Though Dr L — 's Obfervations were juft, with Rc-
fpecl to Mr AI—^ yet he has miftaken Mr P — ; for
136 Debates relathe to the [Day VIII.
Mr i?— F—.
MrS ,
As I perceive many Gentlemen have taken
the Liberty to deviate, confiderably, from the
Matter in Debate, I hope I may be indulged
in a fmall Digreffion, with Refpedl to a cer-
tain Monofy liable, which has greatly affedled
a Gentleman at the other End of the Houfe ;
and, he himfelf has declared, has even made
him fick : This Monofyllable, Sir, is the
Name of a certain illegitimate Child, oi Pub-
lick Spirit^ whom the World has agreed to
call JoBB. He is well known in this Houfe,
and, I am forry to fay, has not been ill receiv-
ed in it ; permit me, therefore, to give fome
ferther Account of his Defcent and Family,
his Character and Qualifications. I have al-
ready obferved, that his Mother is Fublick
Spirit ; this Lady, though fhe is defervedly
efreemed for many great and good Qualities,
Mr P — did not fay, if Mr M— would do his Jobbs, he
would do Mr M—-S \ but, that if he could fubmit to do
a Jo3R at all, he would as foon do it for Mr M-— as for
any Man.
is
Day VIII.] Jfmrs of Ireland. 137
is known to have a Freedom cf Principle^
and a Warmth of Confiitiition^ which, con-
curring with Opportunity, fpecious Preten-
ces, and folemn AiTurances, have frequently
fubverted her Chaftity, and feduced her to
the Embraces of the meaneft and the moft
unworthy Wretches in the World : Among
thefe was Self- Inter ejfy by whom Publick
Spirit has a numerous Ifliie, diftinguifhed by
the Name of Jobb ; how they came to be fo
called I fhall not at prefent enquire, but, it is
certain, that, as to their outward Appearance,
they greatly refemble their Mother, and that,
in their Principles and Difpofitions, they are
altogether like their Father. Their Refem-
blance to Public Spirit has enabled them to
do much Mifchief, by executing the Projeds
of Private Liter e/i ; they have been difper-
fed all over the World, and have ad:ed in e-
very Sphere. They have eftabliflied great
Empires, and brought them to Deftru6lion ;
they have placed Monarchs upon a Throne,
and baniflied them to a Defcrt ; they have
appeared in the Character of Alexanders^
Boiirbof2Sy and Ravilliacs : They have been
adtive both in Church and State, from the
Minifter to the Contra(5lor, from the Archbi-
K 4 fhop
138 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
fhop to the Curate, from the Judge to the
Newgate Sollicitor, from the Commander in
Chief to the Quarter Mafter, from the Court
Phyfician to the Itinerant Quack j they have
always flourifhed in Proportion to the Wealth
and Generofity of the Country, where they
have redded j and, though this Country can-
not boafl to have been vifited by many of the
Offspring, which Public Spirit has born to a
worthy Father, yet many of the Jobbs, her
Children, by Self -Liter ejl, have come over
hither from a neighbouring Kingdom, and
have, with great Succefs, played, both upon
our Virtues and our Weaknefs : They have
flattered us, by telling us, that we were Rich ;
and, they have amufed us, by pretending to
encreafe our Riches > they have applauded
pur Generofity ; and, to give us an Opportu-
nity of (hewing, that we have deferved the
Complement, have been very free in foliciting
Favours ; this Opportunity we have leldom
failed to improve -, we have lavished upon
them whatever they required ; they, in re-
turn have gone off with their Booty, exulting
in their own Cunning, and defpifing our Sim-
plicity.
DayVIII.] JfairsoflRELAiiD. 139
One of this hopeful Progeny, who hap-
pened to be born on this Side of the Water,
about ten Years ago, found a Hoard of Money,
which, as is a common Cafe, betrayed him
into ftrange Inconfiftencies, fo that fome Per-
fons did not fcruple to fay, he was befide
himfelf ; it was his Cuftom, for fome time
afterwards, to fally forth, attended by Drum-
mers and Trumpeters, and a licentious? and
diforderly Rabble, crying out, in a difmal
and frantic Tone, O ! my Country ! my
bleeding Country ! The little Boys ran away,
crying and frighted, and the Women fell into
fits ; but, at laft, he fat down with his AlTo-
ciates about him, treated them with Whlfl<:y,
and Tobacco, till they could neither fee,
fpeak, nor ftir j and, declared, that Irelafid
was the happieft Country in the World, that
all Minifters were Patriots, and, attended to
nothing but eftablifhing Liberty, and reward-
ing Merit *,
Some
* In the Year 1753, it was difcovered, that there
was a very large Sum in the Treafury unapplied, and,
for which, there was no call ; many Pcrlbns afFcdted
^reat Fears, that it would be unconftitutionally difpofed
of.
140 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
Some of the Family of the Jobbs^ are flill
among us, and endeavour to conceal them-
felves under borrowed Names, and Charac-
ters J but it is rnofl certainly the Duty, and, I
moft fincerely hope, the Inclination, of every
Member, of this auguft AlTembly to deted:,
and banifli them for ever.
That they may be the more eadly difco-
vered, I fliall mention feveral particular Cha-
rade rift ics, which, by a penetrating Eye, may
be feen through all their Difguifes. They
very often aiTume their Mother's Name, and
pretend, that their Father was Integrity, a
Gentleman of very honourable Defcent, who,
having of late Times, been much negledted,
by Perfons of Power and Interefl, has fallen
into Misfortunes, and been obliged to play at
Hide and Seek, fo that having been long in
Obfcurity, nobody knows where he is. This
Pretence, frequently procures them great Po-
of. An Oppofition againft the Court was made, by a
numerous Party, but, fomc time afterwards, finding
themfelves miftaken, they accepted of Court Preferment,
and tacitly acquiefced in Court Meafures,
pularity.
Day VIII.] 4fdirs of Ireland. 141
pularity, of which they are very fond ; but,
the Failacy may eafily be difcovered, by at-
tending to their Conduct, for that will al-
ways demonftrate their Relation to Self Inte^
refii from whofe Principles alone it proceeds.
They fometimes afted: a violent PaiTion for
cultivating the Arts of Peace, for the Im-
provement of Trade, Shipping, Manufactures,
high Roads, and Bridges 5 at other Times,
they are very bufy in Preparations for War,
in erecting and repairing Fortifications, Ram-
parts, and Barracks ; and, of late, they have
condefcended to amuie themfelves with great
Guns, Haubitzers, and Mortars ; with Pow-
der, and Ball, and Fire, and Smoke j Vv^ith
warlike Peace, and peaceful War; but their
true Character will always be difcovered, by
a Dilatorinefs and Inconfiftency of Condud:,
in whatever they undertake. They are al-
ways zealous and in hafte to begin a Work,
but they do not care how long it is in Hand,
and take care, to do all in their Power to pre-
vent its being finiflied. They will alfo be
found, frequently, to begin their Undertaking
at the wrong End ; for they have been feen
very bufy in preparing Implements of War,
for the Defence of Fortifications, before there
were any Fortifications to defend. Their
Pailion
i42 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
Paffion for Land-Works is not more confpi-
cuous than for JVafer-Works, Some time
ago, they were exerting all their Influence to
make Inroads into the Sea ; they were build-
ing Keys, and projeding Piers ; crying to the
Ocean " hitherto ilialt thou come, and here
fhall thy proud Waves be flayed;" but, at
prefent, they feem to take greater delight in
the more gentle and innocent Entertainment
of tracing the Meandering of Canals, and Ri-
vers, through Meads and Lawns, from one
great City to another. But neither is Land
nor Water fufficient to circumfcribe their
Projedls ; they mount the Air, and, pretend
to erect Caftles, for the Accommodation of
thofe that fhall undertake a Journey to the
Moon -f-.
As to the Places where they are to be
found, they love good Company, and afTociate
much with thofe, in whom you Gentlemen,
place great Confidence ; they are found at the
Treafury Board, the Linnen Board, the Bar-
rack Board, and, in fliort, at every other
t Alluding to the impradical Schemes, for which.
Money has been obtained, by Cabal and Private Inte-
feft.
Board ;
Day VIII.] j^jfairs of Ireland. 14^
Board ; nor are they ever to be mifTed at Grand
Juries, or Societies that have the Difpofal of
Money. It has been faid , by fome that they have
a necromantic Pov^er, v^'hich, others fuppofe
to have been long fince loft, and, which, fome
modern Sceptics fuppofe never to have exif-
ted : It is infinuated, that they may, for
ought we know to the contrary, be, at this
Moment floating in the Air, within this fa-
cred Rotunda j that they may appear to fome
among us, like the Dagger of Macbeth^ with
the Handle towards us -, but, let none of us
fay to it, as he did, " come, let me clutch
thee." Let us fufpeft the Appearance of
every " queftionable Shape," and, if any
JoBBS approach in their own, whether they
attempt to flip in at the back Door, to pop
from behind the Arras, or to fkulk privately
in it ; or whether, hoping to pafs unfufped:ed,
by appearing to have nothing to fear, they
may boldly endeavour to enter in front, let
us unite at once, to feize, and to expel them,
as Pefts of Society, and Traitors, to the State,
with all the Ignominy and Contempt that is
their due.
The R— t H-ble Mr B— M-, moved,
that the Committee appointed to conlider the
Peti-
144 Debates relative to the [Day VIII.
Petition, of Mary A/hivorth, fhould fit in
the Houfe, and, that it fliould take into Con-
lideration all the Petitions of the fame Kind,
praying Encouragement, for carrying on Arts
and Manufadlures.
Some other Member, alfo moved, that this
Committee fliould always fit in the Houfe,
and, not as ufual, in the Speaker's Chamber ;
in Order that the Tranfadtions might be the
more publicly known, becaufe, it fometimes
happened that three or four Friends of the
Party got together, and, agreed to juft what
they pleafed j and, becaufe, the Houfe feldom
thought fit to differ from .their Committee ;
it was added, that the more public the In-
quiry into the Utility of allotting the publick
Money to particular Purpofes was made the
better.
The H— -ble £■— 5—, reprefented, that
very great Inconveniency, and Danger, fre-
quently rofe, to the Subjedis of this King-
dom, from the Negled: of the Mafters of
Ships trading to England, who, neither pro-.
vided a proper Number of Hands, to navigate
the Veffel, nor a fufficient Quantity of Ne-
ceflaries, to ferve the Purpofes of Life, if the
Ship
Day VIII.] 4fairs of Ireland. 145
Ship happened to be a few Days longer in
her Voyage than ufual, by bad Weather,
which, frequently drove her out of her
Courfe ; particularly. Candles and frefh Wa-
ter 'j he faid, that, he was himfelf, a Paffen-
ger, very lately, on board the Lively^ and,
that the Danger, and Diftrefs, which he, and
the reft of the PafTengers fuffered, by the
Want of thofe Articles was inexpreffible;
that the Terror they felt from the Danger of
the Storm was nothing in comparifon of
their fuffering for want of Water, and their
dread of perifliing by Thirft ; he, therefore, .
prayed that he might have leave to bring in
the Heads of a Bill, to prevent fuch Evils for
the future. »
" Ordered, that leave be given, to bring in
Heads of a Bill, for the better PvCgulation of
fuch Ships as Trade between the Kingdom
of Jrela7id, and that of Great Britain ; and,
for making it penal, for the Maftcrs and
Commanders of fuch VelTels, to proceed to
Sea, without a fuiiicient Number of able
Sea-men, to navigate them, and a compe-
tency of Bread, Water, and Candles, for the
Number of PailenG;ers and Hands on Board,
allowing, even for the Chance of a tedious
Palfage. WED-
146 Debates relathe to the [Day IX.
WEDNESDAY, A7ci;. 3^, 1763.
NINTH DAY.
THERE was a Meeting of the Com-
mittee of Accounts, of which Mr
y — B — , Senior, was Chairman, when there
arofe the following Debate :
The R— t H— ble Mr P— T— , the A. G.
MrS ■'-,
I think it my Duty to propofe, that the
Fadts, which I (hall now lay before you, be
made part of your Report to the Houfe : The
Fadts are thefe : In the Year 1729, it was
found, that the ufual Supplies had not been fuf-
ficient to anfwer the Exigencies of Govern-
ment J to make good the Deficiency, there-
fore, 200,000/. was raifed, by Parliament,'
in the fubfequent Seffions, after the ufual
Manner : When this Sum came to be ac-
counted for, in the Year 173 1, the Publick
got Credit for Six-pence in the Pound out of
it, fuch a Deduction being made from all
publick Money, when it goes out of the Trea-
fury.
Day IX.] jifairs of Ireland. 147
fury. This Dedudion of Six-pence in the
Pound, from the Hereditary Revenue, is paid
as a Fee or Perquifite to the Vice Treafurer 5
but, the Deduction of Six-pence in the Pound,
from the Additional Duties, has always been
made an additional Aid to Government, and
the Treafury has been made Debtor for it
accordingly. The public Accounts were
pafled the fame Year, and, this faving of Six-
pence in the Pound, upon the 200,000 /. ad-
ditional Duty, was voted and allowed as an
Aid to Government, nor did the Vice Trea-
furer pretend to lay any Claim to it.
The fame Year, it was alfo found Necef-
fary, to raife the farther additional Duty of
100,000/. and this Sum being accounted for
in the Year 1733, the faving of Six-pence a
Pound upon it, like that, upon the other
200,000/. was placed as a farther Aid, and,
this has been the conftant Pradiice, and vot-
ed as fuch from Seffions to Seffions,
In the Year 1759, the Sum of 150,000 /.
was raifed, and a Vote of Credit given for
200,000 /. more : This 200,000 /. was raif-
ed in the fubfequent Year, and the Deputy
Vice-Treafurer thought proper to pay the
L Pe.
148 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
Dedudlion of Six-pence in the Pound out of
it, to the Vice-Treafurer, inflead of retaining
it in his Hands, as a farther Aid to Govern- ^
ment.
In the Year 1761, the public Accounts
were paiTed, and, by fome Miftake, the Pay-
ment of the Six-pence in the Pound, upon
200,000/. being the Sum of 5,000/. to the
Vice Treafurer, was allowed, and the Deputy
Vice Treafurer was not, as ufual, made aci
countable for it as an Aid to Government.
Sometime afterwards, however, I applied
to the Deputy- Vice-Treafurer, and told him,
that I did not think him fafe, in having paid'
the 5,000 /. to the Vice Treafurer, it being
my Opinion, that, as the 200,000/. froi
which it was a Dedudtion, had been raifed upoi
a Vote of Credit, and was an additional Duty^
the Poundage ought to have been made
faving to the Government, as all Poundage
upon additional Duties had adtually been, in
all preceding Times, and, that, though the
Accounts had been pafTed by Parliament, yet
they might be over-hauled, and, he might be
made Debtor to the Treafury, for the Money,
and
Day IX.] Affairs of IwE-LK^Tt, 149
and obliged to pay it. This, I thought it
my Duty, as a Servant of the Crown, to
do ; and the Deputy-Vice-Treafurer was
fo fenfihie of the Weight of what I faid,
that he thought proper to make Stoppages
for his own Indemnification of two Thirds
of the Sum he had paid, from a Ballance
in his Hands, due to two Vice-Treafurers,
and he would have flopped the other Third,
from a third Vice-Treafurer, but, he being
out of Office, the Deputy had no Ballance
due to him in his Hands j to this Gen-
tleman, however, who, was then in England^
he wrote a Letter, ftating the Fad:, and re-
lating my Opinion -, upon this, the Vice
Treafurers took an Opinion in that Kingdom,
and filed a Bill in Chancery againfl the De-
puty, in order to recover the Money he had
flopped ; to this Bill they made me, as A — ^
G— , a Party, and I freely confefs, that hi-
therto I have put in no Anfwer to it, for, as
the Queftion litigated, relates to the Difpofal
of public Money, I thought the Parliament
had the befl Right to determine it.
L % The
J 50 Debates relative to the [Day IX,
The R-t H-ble F— A—,
Mr S ,
I am very fbrry to fay, that, I cannot but
draw a Conclafion, diredily oppofite to that
of the worthy Gentleman who fpoke laftJ
from the very fame Premifes j for, it appears
to me, from the whole of what he has faid,
that it would be in thehigheft Degree impro-
per, and unbecoming, for the Houfe, to inter-l
fere in the Queftion, which he would recom-
mend to its determination. The honourable
Gentleman, has very freely confefTed, that h(
has obflrudted the common Courfe of Juf-*
tice, by a wilful and intended delay ; but,
Ihall we take Advantage of fuch delay, tc
preclude the Determination of a Court, t<
which the Parties have regularly appealed
Does it become us to wreft a Suit out of the'
Hands of the Court of Chancery, or to fore-
judge a Caufe, that has been properly brought
before it ? Belides, Sir, the very Pretence for
taking this Affair out of the Jurifdidion, into
which it is properly brought, is fallacious.
The Vice-Treafurer, by Virtue of the Patent,
which he holds under the Sandion of the
Laws
Day IX.] Affairs of Ireland. i^i
Laws of this Kingdom, is intitled to a Poun-
dage of Six-pence in twenty Shillings, out of
all Monies paid out of theTreafury, if there is
not an exprels Refolution of this Houfc to the
contrary ; now, it is not pretended, that there
was a Refolution of the Houfe againft it,
with Refpecfl to the Sum in Queftion, and
indeed, the contrary appears by inconteftible
Evidence, for the Poundage has adlually been
allowed by the Houfe, and no Man can fup-
pofe the Houfe would allow a Dedudlion, that
had been made contrary to its exprefs Refo-
lution. But, as there has been no Refolution
againft this Deduction, neither is it equitable
that there fhould, for, it is no more than a
reafonable Salary to the Vice-Treafurers, and,
is made from the Individuals, only, that re-
ceive Money from the Exchequer, and, not
from the Public, who would be charged with
a Salary, for thefe Officers, if they were not
paid by this more equitable, and lefs burden-
fome Method. They are intitled to this Mo-
ney, raifed in this Manner, by the Ad of Par-
liament, under which they liold their Patent ;
and they have received this Money by the
Execution of that Ad ; and can we, by any
Refolution, fay, that this Ad ought not to
have been executed ? or, that it fhall not be
L 3 exe-
1^2 Debates relative to the [Day IX,
executed for the future ? An A6t, indeed,
may be repealed, but the Execution of it can'
never be fufpended, while it continues in
force, without the Exertion of an unconftitu-
tional and rebellious Power, which muft ne-
ceflarily throw all Things into Confufion.
Neither is it the Province of this Houfe to
explain the Lav/s, other wife than by new
Statutes properly paiTed for that End j the
Courts of Law are appointed for this Purpofe,
and to them the Subjedt is, by the Inftituti-
on of his Country, to apply : Nor, in the
prefent Cafe, is the Object worthy of parlia
mentary Notice, being only a paltry Sum o
about five thoufand Pounds. It was, indeed,
the Objedt of parliamentary Attention, when
it came regularly before the Parliament, con-
nected with other Matters of greater Impor-
tance ; and the Parliament, as I have already
obferved, confirmed the Dilpofition of it,
which is now controverted , if the Refoluti-
ons of any former Scfiions are to be review-
ed, and we are to undo this Seffions what we
did laft, I do not fee, why we may not go
back twenty Years, or, bring the Authority
of our Rcfolutions into Queflion, from the
Time that Refolutions were firft made. If I
it was lawful to take Cognizance of this Af-
fair,
Day IX.] ^Jazrs of Ireland. 153
fair, in wrong of the Court of Chancery, to
which the Parties have appealed, yet, I think,
we (hould be bound to eftablilh our Refolu-
tion, both for our own Honour, and, in Juf-
tice to the Gentlemen it concerns; for it
would furely be a piteous and cruel Cafe, to
make Gentlemen refund, what we have al-
lowed them as their Right, and what, in con-
fequence of fuch Allowance, they have re-
ceived and fpent. Upon the whole, I am
clearly of Opinion, that the Houfe fhould do
nothing in the Affair.
Sir i^— C— .
MrS ,
As I always liflcn, with the greateft Atten-
tion, to the Arguments of that learned Gen-
tleman, nothing that he fays efcapes me, and,
I fhall, therefore, endeavour to trace him
flep by ftep, and offer my Thoughts,
upon the very fame Points, which he has
made the Subjed: of his own. I (hall, how-
ever, begin where he has ended, and, as he
has thought fit to fay it would be a cruel, and
pitiable thing, to bring the Vice-Treafurers to
an Account, for what they have fpent, 1 think
L4 it
y
1^4 Debates relative to the [Day IX,
it would be proper to afcertain how far they
are Objedts of Commifferation, and, therefore,
move, that the proper Officer do lay before
the Houfe, an Account of the Sums that have
been paid to the Vice-Treafurers, as Salaries
for {twtn Years laft paft ; we fhall then know,
not only how far they are to be pitied, but
how far the want of fufficient Salaries will
juftify their having 5,000/. of the public
Money, which, except in this fingle Inftance,
they never had before. The honourable
Gentleman, has, indeed, told us, that it is a
reafonable Salary, and, he would perfuade us
that the Public does not pay it, becaufe, it is
raifed by Dedudions from Sums received by
Individuals out of the Treafury ; according to
him, granting it to be a reafonable Salary, the
Publick adually faves 5,000 /. (which it
would be othcrwife taxed to pay this Salary,)
by the ingenious Contrivance of mulding
thofe, who have Claims on the Treafury.
Whether this Sum is a reafonable Part of their
Salary now, will be beft determined, when
the Amount of their Salary fliall be known,
but their Salary was certainly thought fuffi-
cient without it, both by their Maffers, and
themfelves, from the Time of the Eftabliffi-
ment of their Office, till the paffing of their
laft
Day IX.] Affairs of Ireland. 155
laft Accounts. As to the Pretence, that, if
they receive this Increafe of Wages, by a
Poundage from Individuals, the Pubhc v^^ill
not pay it; a Moment's Confideration will
ihew it to be a Fallacy. This Poundage
muft be applied, either as an additional Aid to
Government, or an Increafe of Salary to the
Vice-Treafurer. If it is applied as an additi-
onal Aid to Government, the Public necelTa-
rily faves a Sum equal to its Amount ; for if,
inftead of being applied as an additional Aid,
it is paid as an Increafe of Salary, the Public
muft raife fuch a Sum, to replace it in the
Treafury j fo that, as long as this Poundage is
paid to Vice-Treafurers, fo long the Publick
muft pay juft as much as that amounts to,
more than they would pay if the Poundage
was applied as an Aid to Government. — —
But, we are farther told, that we ought not
to bring the Vice-Treafurers to an Account
for an unjuft Application of public Money,
becaufe it is now feveral Years fince the pub-
lic Money was mif-applied j I confefs this is
the firft Time I ever heard that the Age of a
Crime ought to be its Protedion. Give me
leave to fay, that it is the indifpe^ifible Duty,
sis well as the moft important Privilege of
this Houfe, to enquire into the Diftribution
of
156 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
of public Money, and to take Cognizance of
the Mif-application of it, at any Time part,
however rerfiote, if there is a Poilibijity of re-
covering the Sum, or punilhing the OfFenden
If Sir Williajn Robinfon, who was fo lone
ago difmifled from his Office, for corrupt.
Pradiices, was in being, and had wherewithal!
to fatisfy the Public, we fhould he inexcufa-
ble, if we did not compell him to do it. I
intend to fet on foot an Enquiry myfelf, with
Refpe6l to fevcn thoufand Pounds that was
not accounted for in the Year 1742 j and, if
Length of Time fliould not be allowed to
fcreen Guilt, neither fliould the Negied of
thofe, whofe Bufinefs it is to deted it, dete^^
others from the Attempt. The Negled: of
that Sefiions, which pafled the Accounts, in
which the Sum in queftion was mifapplied,
gives no Sanction to the Mifapplication : Is]
our having once done wrong, a Reafon that]
we fliould never do right ? On the contrary,]
it is the Duty of this Parliament to redifj
the Mifl:akes of former Parliaments ; and, I|
think, that he who labours to find Caufes
why this Houfe fliould not, to the utmofl,
fulfill its Truft, with Refped: to the Confi-
dence which the Public has repofed in it, by
making it the Keeper of its Purfe, does not
adl
Day IX.] Affairs of Ireland. 157
a(5t as the Friend of his Country. The Fadt,
at prefent before us, is this ; the Vice-Trea-
lurers, and their Deputy, who are Servants of
the Public, have a Difpute among them-
felves about the Difpofal of public Money ;
of Money which this Houfe has put into their
Hands for particular Purpofes, and, inftead of
applying to this Houfe, to know what thofe
Purpofes were, they carry their Difpute into
a Court of Law ; and, fhall we acquiefce in a
Meafure, in which we are fo contemptuouQy
pafled by, and which fo effentially affects us,
with Refpect to our higheft Privilege and
greateft Truft ? Surely Mr A— G— aded
with the utmoft Propriety, with the greateft
Attention to his Duty, and the higheft Re-
gard to the Honour of this Houfe, by pre-
venting the Determination of this Queftion in
Chancery, before we had an Opportunity of
taking Cognizance of it ourfelves. The ho-
nourable Gentleman, who fpoke laft, has told
us, that the Vice-Treafurers are intitled to this
Money by the Ad of Parliament under which
they hold their Patent ; and that we cannot
condemn, or fufpend, the Execution of an Ad
otherwife than by repealing it. But, does not
this Gentleman know, that, to fay they are
intitled to the Money, under an A<ft of Parlia-
ment,
15B Debates relative to the [Day IX.
ment, is begging the very Queftion in difpute ?
Does he think the Parties are applying
to a Court of Chancery, to know whether
an A<5t of Parliament {hdU be executed or
not ? If this Houfe has no Power to fufpend
the Execution of a Law of the Land, does he
think any fiich Power is claimed, or fuppofed
to be claimed, by a Court of Chancery ?
The Patent of the Vice-Treafurer was made,
when no public Money was raifed here but
the hereditary Revenue, when there was no
fuch Thing as additional Aids, and, therefore,
this hereditary Revenue could only be in-
tended by the Spirit of the Law, which then
enabled, that the Vice-Treafurer (liould have
Six-pence in the Pound out of all Monies if-
fuing out of the Exchequer. That this was
the Spirit of the Law, and always underflood
to be fo, Vv^ill appear from the uninterrupted,
and uniform Practice of Parliament, for no
lefs than fixty Years j for, fo long ago as the
Year 1703, a Saving was made of Six-pence
in the Pound, upon all additional Duties, and
this Saving has been regularly continued, till,
by the Precipitation, or Connivance, of the laft
Seffions, it was loft. If the Houfe hitherto
has had a Right to determine how the Six-
pence in the Pound, on additional Supplies,
fliould
Day IX. Af airs of Ireland. 159
{hould te difpofed of, how comes it that
they have not a Right now ? and, if it has hi-
therto been the Senfe of the Houfe, that this
Deduction (hould be a Saving, and that it was
not a necellary Encreafe of the Vice-Treafu-
rer's Salary, what fliould make it not the
Senfe of the Houfe now ? Is it upon the
Principle, that " to them that have it fhall be
given ;" is the great Increafe of the Vice-
Treafurer's Revenue, in other Refpeds, a Rea-
fon why it fhould be increafed ft ill more, by
5,000/. taken out of the public Purfe ? Is it
becaufe the Vice-Treafurers are Englijhmeny
and will fpend their Revenue on the other
Side of the Water ! or is it, becaufe the Em-
ployment is fo great that it is divided among
three, and becaufe the Difpofal of it will cre-
ate a rainifterial Dependance, in Proportion
to its Revenue and importance ? or is there
any other Reafon why 5,000/. of the public
Money fliould be now thrown into the Lap
of Servants, who were moft amply paid be-
fore, and who, till now, never claimed or ex-
peded, fo unmerited and unneceftary an Ad-
dition to their Income j but this Sum, howe-
ver large, as the Increafe of a Servant's Wages,
is (aid to be unworthy the Attention of Parli-
ament : I am, however, equally concerned
and
j6o Debates relative to the [Day IX.
and furprized, to find that any Perverfion of
parliamentary Purpofes, any Mifapplication of
public Money, any Meafure, injurious to our
Privileges, or derogatory from our Honour,
Ihould be thought unworthy of our Notice :
Thefe Things are important from their Na-
ture, not their Degree. The fmalleft: Injury
offered to the Public, or to this Houfe, is of
more Moment than the greateft Injury that
one Individual can do to another j as only to
imagine the Death of the King, is, by our
Laws, confidered to be a greater Crime than
the adtual Murder of a Subjed:. Upon the
whole, I am clearly and fully of Opinion,
that the Fads, ftated by Mr A — G— , ihould
be reported to the Houfe.
The R-t H—ble Mr F-- A-,
MrS— ,
I am extreamly obliged to the honourable
Gentleman, who fpoke laft, for the Attention
that he is pleafed to fay, he always pays me,
and yet I could wifh it were ftill greater, for,
at prefent, it has not been fufficient to take
my meaning. I did not fay, that the Age of
Crimes (liould protedl them from Enquiry and
Pu-
Day IX.] Affairs of iRELAiiD, i6i
Punifhment, nor had I any Ideas in my Mind
that could prompt me to fay it, for, I never
confidered the Vice-Treafurers, as being guil-
ty of a Crime, in the Appropriation of the
Poundage, on the additional Supplies, and the
principal Purport of what I faid, was, to fhew
that I thought it their due. Neither did I
fay, that they were Objedts of Pity, I faid, it
was a Pity that Juftice fhould be impeded in
its legal, regular, and proper Courfe. I am fo
far from thinking Vice-Treafurers Objedls of
Pity, that I thirik there is the greateft Reafon
to confider them, as Objects of Envy ; but, I
fliall for ever adhere to the Opinion, that, for
this Koufe to interfere with the Courts of
Juftice, is of very dangerous Confequence ;
with the Courts of Law they fhould certain-
ly co-operate, and place a Confidence in them,
if it was only for Example fake, and, if pof-
iible, to encreafe their Influence, and the Re-
verence, that is paid them, as the Adminiftra-
tors of Juftice, whofe Office it is, by the very
Conftitution of our Government, to explain
the L ws made by this Houfe, and carry them
into Execution.
Sir
i62 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
MrS ,
I think it a Duty, that I owe to that ho-
nourable Gentleman, to fuppofe his meaning
was, what he now explains it to be j but I
think it alfo a Duty due to myfelf, to obferve,
that his Words did not exprefs the Meaning,
which he has now explained ; he faid, that
he thought the Refolutions of a former Sef-
iions, ought not to be reviewed ; and does not
this plainly imply, that, if that Refolution
juftlfied a Crime, the Crime muft remain juf-
tified ? whether a Crime has been committed
or not, is the Matter to be determined, by the
very Review that he would prevent j but, he
faid, he thought, that if we took Cognizance
of the fame Queftion again, we ought to de-
termine, as we have determined already, and,
what is this but faying, that, having once
done Wrong, we ought never to do Right ? he
faid, alfo, that it would be a piteous and
cruel Cafe, to make Gentlemen refund Money
they had been allowed to take, and, which,
they had, in confequence of that Allowance,
fpent already j and, furely, Gentlemen in a
piteous
Day IX.] Affairs of Ireland. 163
piteous Cafe, are Objedls of Pity ; however,
if thefe Officers, according to the Opinion
now explained, are Objedls not of Pity, but of
Envy, it is difficult to conceive what can in-
duce the honourable Gentleman to make
them flill more fo, at the Expence of the
Public, at the Expence of this poor Country,
from which they already draw lo confiderable
a Sum todiffipate in another. Upon the whole,
I muft declare, that I fee no Reafon from any
Thing that Gentleman has faid, to change
my Opinion, that this Houfe fhould be zea-
lous, on all Occafions, to maintain its undoubt-
ed Right of ordering the DIfpoflil of publick
Money, and that no other Part of the Legifla-
ture, much lefs a Court oi Law, fhould in-
termeddle with it.
The R— t H— ble Mr N- C-, D-
V — T — , got up, in his Place, and acknow-
ledged that as the 200,000 /. raifed on
the Vote of Credit, went out of the Treafu^
ry, he charged the Fees on it to the Account
of the Vice-Treafurers, and, on fettling the
Accounts, paid them the Ballance. He ob^
ferved, that no Objedtion was made to this, on
paffing the Accounts -, but, he faid, that, in a
Cofiverfation with the Attorney, and SoliicI-^
M tgfM
164 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
tor-General, he found Reafon to doubt whe-
ther he was fafe in what he had done, not-
withftandlng the Accounts had been pafTed,
and that, therefore, he flopped, from the nej^t
Payment, to two of the Vice-Treafurers,
their Proportions of the Poundage they had
received, on the Sum in Queftion, and that he
would have done fo with Ilefped to Mr £—
the third, but he being gone out of Office,
there was no Money in Hand belonging to
him out of which the Stoppage could be
made. He faid, alfo, that the two former
had taken the Opinion of the Attorney and
Sollicitor-General, in England^ upon the Cafe,
and, by their Advice, had filed a Bill in Chan-
cery here againft him, to recover the Money
he had flopped, and that they had made the
Actorney-General a Party to the Bill ; he ad-
ded, that Mr E — had written him Word,
that, if the Suit in Chancery went againfl the
Vice-Treafurers, he would refund the Mo-
ney.
The S— G — gave his Opinion, that the
Tranfadion fliould be taken Notice of by the
Committee, and reported to the Houfe, and
this was agreed to without a Divilion.
Sir
Day IX.J Affairs of Ireland. 165
Sir B, — C — reprefented, that many In-
conveniencies might happen, and that, in ge-
neral, it was fcarce poffible to carry on the
Bufinefs of the Seffion with the Exadtnefs
and DeUberation neceflary to its being carried
on effedlually, if Monday was always kept as
Holiday j and he, therefore, moved that the
Houfe fhould meet on the next Monday.
The R— t H—ble F— A— faid, that he ^
thought it of more Importance to appoint the
Houfe to meet earlier, that it might not be o-
bliged to (it fo late, for that the Attendance
of that Houfe till feven or eight o'Clock at
Night was a very great Fatigue, and, as long
as this continued, he thought one Day in a
Week httle enough for Relaxation : The Bu-
finefs of the Houfe, he faid, would be better
attended to on the other five Days, and that,
as to their meeting the next Monday^ he did
not know any particular Bufmefs that made
it neceffary.
Sir R— C — replied, that, when the Bufi-
nefs of the Nation was to be done. Gentle-
men (hould attend to it as diligently fix Days
gs they would five, notwithft^nding the Fa*
M 2 tigwe^
i66 Debates relative to the [Day IX»
tigue, for that no private Indulgence ought
to preclude public Benefit : That there was
not a Gentleman in the Houfe to whom In-
dulgence was more neceffary than himfelf, as
his State of Health was fuch as made extraor-
dinary Application and Fatigue very preju-
dicial, yet he defired no fuch Relaxation as
was now contended for. He faid, the Al-
lowance of the 5,000/. upon the additional
Supplies, to the Vice-Treafurer, a Miftake
which, in every View, ,was attended with
the moft difagreeable Confequences, arofe
from the Precipitation of the laft Seffion, ow-
ing to the Want of Time, and that he could
not but be extremely furprized to hear any
Gentleman fay, that he did not know what
Eafinefs was to be done, when they were to
pafs the national Accounts*
Mr H — F — faid, that he did not know
any Reafon why Monday fliould be a Holi-
day, except that feme Gentlemen might, per-
haps, think themfelves ftill at School, and fo
imagine it to be black Monday.
Upon a Divilion, it was ordered, that the
Houfe, for the future, fliould meet on Mori'
day,
Dr
Day IX.] y^ffairs of Ireland. 167
Dr C- L-.
MrS ,
I have obferved a Negative put upon a
Motion *, in the Votes lately pubhfhcd, that
gives me the greateft Surprize. I was not
prefent when it happened, and I am inclined
to impute it to a Miftake of the Clerk, or
the Printer, becaufe, I think, it is impoffible
that this Houfe, the great national Council,
whofe Duty it is to make the ftridleft Enquiry
into every Thing that affeds the Conftitution,
could rejed: any Motion which tended to
throw a Light on an Enquiry of the higheft
Importance.
Mr M- F—.
MrS ,
I rife up. Sir, to call that Gentleman to
Order j for, it is contrary to all the Rules of
this Houfe, for any Member to objedt againft
* The Motion to lay the Opinion of the A— and
S— G — concerning the Grant of the Offices of Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and Mafter of the Rolls, for
Life, before the Houfe.
M 3 ,. Pro-
t68 Debates relative to the [DaV I^*
Proceedings which he muft know, whatever
he may pretend to the contrary, were agreed
to by a large Majority, and it is a much grof-
fer Violation of thefe Rules to caft Refledtions
of an odious and invidious Nature, upon any
fuch Proceedings, fcr this can be nothing left
than an Infult upon the Houfe, whofe Ad:
all the Adls of a Majority are known to be :
His Pretence of a Miftake in the Clerk, or the
Printer, is ridiculous, becaufe it implies an
Impoffibility ; for the Votes are always care-
fully read by the Speaker, before they are
fent to the Prefs, and the Speaker alfo infpeds
them, after they are printed, to prevent any
Errors of the Prefs from ftanding upon the
Journals of the Houfe j befides, fuppofing
the Poffibility, that the Entry in the Votes a-
rofe from a Miftake, he is irregular, for, if he
had fuppofed that to be the Cafe, he ought
to have defired that the Votes of the Day
might be read, and that the Senfe of the
Houfe might be taken upon them.
Dr C— L— .
Mr S ,
Nothing could have induced me to make
the Suppofition in Queflion, but the very ex-
traor-
Day IX.] Affairs of Ire LAiJD, 169
traordinary Nature of the Proceeding, to which
it relates j a Proceeding which is neither fup-
ported by Juftice, nor countenanced by Pre-
cedent J this I imputed rather to Error than
Defign, and, coniidering it in that Light, I
have cafl no Reflediion on the Houfe, and I
apprehend that every Member has a Right to
exprefs his Surprize at what ftrikes him, as ex-
traordinary and unaccountable, and is no more
obliged to impute it to a Caufe which he
thinks impofiible, than other Gentlemen are
obliged to impute it to a Caufe, which they
think impoffible : If I have injured this
Houfe, by fuppofing its Concurrence in a
Meafure deftrud:ive of the Conftitution of
the Country, and the Happinefs and the Free-
dom of the People, to be impoffible, I am ve-
ry, very forry, and as fuch an Injury could
never proceed from a diflionourable Opinion
pf the Houfe, or from any Malignity to it, I
hope it may be forgiven. The Conftitution
of the Country, Sir, and the Happinefs and
Freedom of the People, depend upon the pro-
per Diftribution of Juftice in the Courts of
Law, and there is no Court of Law of greater
Confequence, and Dignity, than the Court of
Exchequer, which has immenfe Property in its
Difpofal. It is well known in this Houfe, that
M 4 the
iyo Debates relative to the [Day IJf,- I
the Objeft of an Enquiry now fet on Foot^
to which my Suppofition relates, is the Lega-
lity of a Patent appointing a Judge of that
Court- and therefore every Thing that could
throw Light upon that Enquiry is of the
greateft Importance, and every Attempt to
prevent Light from being thrown upon it, is
an Attempt tending tofubvert the Conftituti-
on, and affedt the Happinefs and Freedom of
the People. A Gentleman of the greateft
Abilities in the Law, Sir, formerly fate upon
the Bench, and the Bulinefs of that Court
was then carried on with the greateft Expedi-
tion, and perfe6lly to the Satisfadion of every
Perfon who had a Suit depending in it. I
am now extremely forry to fay that this Court,
great and refpedable as it is known to have
been, has loft its Dignity, and fallen into Con-
tempt, an Event equally unhappy and una-
voidable, when fuch Perfons, as the prefent,
prefide upon the Bench.
Mr M-
Mr S ,
1 am extremely forry to find myfelf under
a Ntceflity of calling that Gentleman a fe-
cond
DAYl!5t.] ^^Jairs of Ireland] 171
cond Time to Order ; his very Pretence,
which he would perfuade us prevents what
he has faid, from being a kefledion upon the
Houfe, is itfelf an invidious Reflection, lor
the Proceedings of the Houfe are manifeftly
condemned by being imputed to miflake, ef-
pecially by being imputed to a Miftake that
was impoffible, and that he knew to be fo.
This Infult I cannot hear and be filent ; nei-
ther can I filently hear it faid, that the moft
important of our Courts of Judicature has loft
its Dignity, and is fallen into Contempt, or
fufFer the Charader of our Judges, who pre-
iide in it to be injurioufly treated, without re-
preffing a Behaviour fo licentious and unpar-
liamentary, fo great a Trefpafs upon the
Propriety, and Decency, which fliould always
be obferved in this Houfe, and fo grofs a De-
viation from the Character of a Gentleman,
which ought always to be maintained by its
Members. I appeal to the Houfe, whether
all this is not contrary to Order.
Dr C— L— .
MrS ,
As to what has been faid, concerning the
Court of Exchequer, and its Judges, I can
never
172 Debates relative to the [Day IX*
never conceive it to be a Violation of Order,
except it is a Violation of Order for this Houfe,
to difcharge its Duty to the Public, and fulfill
the Ends of its Inftitution. I have always un-
derftood, Sir, that it w^as the peculiar Pro-
vince of this National Council to enquire into
the State of our Courts of Judicature, and the
Charadter and Condu6t of its Officers : Have
we not a Committee appointed for that very
Purpofe, and/ can the Duty, referred to this
Committee, be performed without communi-
cating to the Houfe, what appears to be amifs
in the Courts or their Officers ? Is it not, Sir,
contrary to all Rule and Order, to deprive us
of the Liberty of fo doing ? and is it not alTer-
ting the Liberty, and, adling confonant to the
Rules of this Houfe, to mention whatever re-
lates to the Courts, or their Officers, without
referve ?
Mr T—H^.
Mr S- ,
I acknowledge, Sir, that this Houfe has a
Right to make a ftricft Enquiry into the Con-
dud: of the Judges of our Courts, and that we
have a ftanding Committee, appointed for
that
Day IX.] Affairs of Ikei^a^T). ly^
that Purpofe ; but, furely it does by no Means
follow that any Member of this Houfe has a
Right to cenfure the whole Bench of any
Court indifcriminately, or to throw out gene-
ral Refledlions upon the Judges of it, unfup-
ported by any particular Fad:, either real or
pretended. It is lawful, Sir, to apply for a
Commiffion of Bankruptcy, againfl; a Mer-
chant, founded upon a particular Fa6t -, but
it is unlawful to fay in general, that a Mer-
chant cannot pay his Debts. If any particu-
lar Act of Mal-adminiftration was alledged
againft any Judge of our Courts of Law, the
Committee of Juftice would immediately
caufe Enquiry to be made, whether the Fad:
alledged was true, and would pafs Judgement
accordingly j but, even in alledging a particu-
lar Fad, there fhould be no general Abufc,
and fuch Language, as we have juft now heard,
would be unbecoming and unparliamentary.
MrJ— G— jthe S. G.
MrS ,
I am entirly of Opinion, with the honour-
able Gentleman who fpoke laft, that it is im-
proper, in the higheft Degree, to vilify and
de-
174 Debates relative to the [Day IX,
depreciate Gentlemen in a moft refpedable Of-
fice, without layingany thing particular to their
Charge. It is certainly incumbent upon this
Houfe, and every Member of it, to fupport
the Dignity and Credit of the Courts of Law,
by which alone its Determinations can be ef-
fedlually, and ultimately, carried into Execu-
tion. It is more efpecially incumbent upon
them, at this time, when the folemn Ads of
the LegiHature of this Kingdom are oppofed
by facetious and unlawful Combinations, in
every Corner of it, and the executive Power
fet at Defiance, by treafonable and out-
rageous Practices, which are a Difgrace to
our Government and Country ; to throw out
invidious Refledions againft this Power, at a
Time when v/e fo eminently need its Service,
is eventually to join the public Enemies of
our Laws, and Countenance the Violence
which is fo flagitioufly offered them. Our
Galleries, I fee, are full, and there is not a
Word faid in this Houfe, that will not be car-
ried abroad ; and, is this a Time to have it
reported, that one of the moft refpe6lable of
our Courts of Law is fallen from its Dignity,
into Contempt, and thus encourage an Op-
pofition to its Juriididion, and a Difcontent
at its Proceedings ! As to myfclf, I think it
my
Day IX.] ^Jfairs of Ireland. 175
my indifpenfable Duty, to fupport the Credit,
and Influence, of that Court to the utmoft of
my Power, and, I anipleafed-to have this Op-
portunity of declaring my Sentiments upon the
Subjed:, and of giving the worthy Gentleman,
from whom I have the Misfortune fo widely
to differ, a proper Time to recoiled: himfelf,
and to remember, both of whom, and to
whom he (hall fpeak, in what he has farther
to offer on the Occafion, fo that he may nei-
ther offend agalnfl the Laws of Decency, nor
the Pwcfpect due to the Dignity of this Houfe.
Mr IV— H-.
MrS-
Notwithftanding, what has been fo juflly
and fo forcibly urged by others, I think it my
Duty to make fome Reply to what has been
thrown out relative to the Court of Exche-
quer, which, I have the Honour to attend,
and fome Profit befides. The Gentlemen of
the Law, who appear frequently in that
Court, are the beft Judges, how far it has
prcierved its Dignity, and, I appeal to all thofe
of the Profeflion that hear me, whether it
has fallen into Contempt. The Gentlemen
who
176 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
who prefide in that Court, and who have
been attacked, in a very extraordinary Manner,
are not here to defend themfelves, and there-
fore, I think it my Duty to declare thus pub-
Hckly, and diredly, that the Refledtions
thrown out againft them are not true^ and that
the Language ufed, upon the Occafion, is a
Difhonour and Difgrace to this Houfe : It
may be proper Language in the Weaver's -
Hall, but it is not fo in a Houfe of Commons.
Dr C- £— .
MrS ,
I have the greateft Honour and Efleem for
the worthy Gentleman who fpoke before the
laft on the Floor ; and fliall always pay the
higheft Regard to his Judgment and Opinion.
It is, therefore, with great regret that I differ
from him no'.v ; however, I muft declare,
that, I think, if there is any Thing amifs in
our Courts of Juftice, either with Refped to
the Legality of the Patents, by which the Of-
ficers are appointed, or the Characters and A-
bilities of the Officers themfelves, it would be
the greateft Abfurdity in itfelf, and the great-
eft Injury to our Conftituents, if we were to
forbear an Enquiry into it, for fear it fliould
be
Day IX.] Jfairs of Irelai^b'^ 177
be known abroad that fuch an Enquiry was
made. If nothing amifs is to be imputed till
it is proved, I fhall be glad to know how
fuch Proof is to be brought on : If no Felon
is to be taken up upon Sufpicion, it is plain
that no Felon can be punifhed ; The Proof
of a Crime muft, in the Nature of Things, be
fubfequent to the Imputation of it, and a
publick and judicial Enquiry will, if the
Crime has been falfely imputed, be for the
Honour of the Party, and, if it is proved, for
the Benefit of the Public. With Refped:
to the preient Queftion, then, it is an Infult,
upon common Senfe, to pretend that People
without Doors ought to think our Courts im^
peccable, and that we ought, therefore, to
fuffer them to become ufelefs,or corrupt, with
Impunity. As to the Gentleman, upon the
Floor, who has thought fit to complain of In-
decency, and reproach me for Exprefiions, un-
becoming this Houfe, I am fure I may, at
leaft, recriminate ; for I have never obferved
greater Indecency than in the Exprefiions he
has made Ufe of: He has, befides, been
pleafed to mifreprefent me ; for, though I faid
the Court had fallen from its Dignity, I did
pot fay it had fallen into Contempt.
Here
178 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
Here Dr L — was again flopped, and called
to Order by Mr T— , the A— G— .
Dr C— L— .
Mr S ,
I muft own I think it is very hard that
Gentlemen will not fuffer me to explain my-
fclf ; they catch up half Sentences, without
permitting me to continue them till they ex-
prefs my meaning j I have been very roundly
treated, and called to Order, for what I have
faid, and yet, I am confident, that, if I had
been permitted to explain myfelf, the Houfe
would have found that I advanced no Opini-
on, in which all prefent did not concur. The
Court of Exchequer, Sir, confifts of the
Chancellor, Treafurer, Chief Baron, and two
Judges : Thefe Perfons, five in Number, adl
in ?. judicial Ci;pacity ; and, if from thefe five
Judges, two are eventually taken away, by
appointing two Perfons to fill two of the Pla-
ces, who do not adt, whether from Want of
Inclination, or Ability, furely no Gentleman
will pretend to fay, that, by fuch dirpinution,
the Court has not fallen from its Dignity ;
Will not five Judges of Ability give the Court
Day IX.] ji4ffairscf Ireland. 179
in which they prefide more Dignity than
three ? at leaft, will not a Court, which, by
its Conftitution, is to confift of five Judges,
lofe its Dignity if two of them are Cyphers ?
When five Judges were appointed to that
Court, it was furely intended that five Judges
iliould adl, and by what Contrivances the
Places of two of them have been made Sine-
Cures, I do not know, but this I know, that
we pay them very large Salaries for doing a
Duty, which they do not do ; and, I fliould
be glad to know if the Bufinefs of that Court
can be effecftually done, and its Dignity eirec-
tually maintained, by the adling of three
Judges, why we are to pay five ? As, I be-
lieve, no Gentleman prefent can deny that two
of thefe Judges are Cyphers, nof that a Court
lofes its Dignity, by having fuch Judges, I
conclude that I might, in this Senfe, without
Reproach, fay, that the Court in queftion has
fallen from its Dignity, and, that every Gen-
tleman here is of the fame Opinion. The
Fad: is, indeed, proved by the very State of
the Court, with Refped to the Bufinefs of it,
at this Time. When the learned Gentleman,
who formerly prefided, fat there as Judge,
there was, at leafi:, twice as much Bufinefs
done in it as there has been fince. What
N fort
l8o Debates relative to the [Day IX.
fort of Men are the prefent Judges ? The
Lawyers will fay excellent, and I fhall take it
for granted j but of paft Judges I may fpeak
my own Opinion : The learned Perfon I have
juft mentioned, was fucceeded by one — -,
was he a proper Man for fuch an Employ-
ment ? Did he add Weight, or Dignity, to
that Court ? There is a Fadt that fays other-
wife, and Facfts are generally believed : From
the Moment this ' was appointed,
no Bufinefs came before that Court, that it
was poilible to avoid bringing thither.
Here he was interrupted by Mr W- — H— .,
who, when he was about to fpeak, and, at
the Beginning of every Period, while he was
fpeaking, gave two Hems, or fhort Coughs,
which were very fingular and comical : When
Dr L — mentioned , who is Mr iJ— 's
particular Friend, he gave his two Coughs
louder, and with greater Vehemence, than
ufual, and then got up to fpeak j this caufed
a general Laugh in the Houfe, upon which
Mr H— faid, he was extremely glad to fee
the Houfe fo merry, upon the Occafion of his
rifing up to fpeak, but, that his rifing up, was,
to himfelf, tragical, as it was to call a Mem-
ber to Order, for indecently and injurioufly
treat-
Day IX.] Affairs of Ireland. i8i
treating the Charad;er of a Gentleman of great
Worth and Honour, who was not preient to
defend himfelf.
DrL.- — .
\ Mr S ,
I can never think, Sir, that it is a Breach
of Order in this Houfe, to enquire into the
Charad:er of thofe who have filled, or who
are to fill an Employment of fuch Dignity,
and Importance, as that in Queftion, with a
View to have it filled as it ought to be. I
think, Sir, that all perfonal and private Regard
ought to give Way to public Intereft, when-
ever they come in competition j and, as to
the Gentleman I have juffc mentioned, he
feems, himfelf, to have been confcious of his
own Inability to fill the Place for which I
have faid he was not qualified : If I have faid
nothing more than he has, by his Conduft,
tacitly admitted to be true, I apprehend I have
done him no wrong ; and that, as he would
have had no Defence to make, if he had been
here, he can lofe no Advantage by being ab-
fent. That he has admitted his Inability for
this Office, is clear, from his having thought
fit to relinquifh it for a Penfion, and, indeed,
N2 he
1 82 Debates relative to the [Day IX.
he judged very properly, that he might as well
take the Nation's Money, without pretending
to do any Thing for it, as take it for an Em-
ployment, in which he was capable of doing
nothing, if he had pretended it. While, he
was in that Employment, he was a Load upon
the Bench, and, when he quitted it, he be-
came a Load upon the Public j the Burthen
is the lame, bat, of the two, the Public is beft
able to bear it. There has, indeed, been a
very fhameful Tranfmutation of Employment
and Penfion ; fhameful if it had been only an
Abuie of Power legally vefted, but much
more (hamcful, as effed:ed without fuch Pow-
er, and as being not only injurious, but illegal.
The two Gentlemen who are fo liberally paid
by the Publick, as Judges, without ever acting,
or pretending to ad in that Capacity, put me
in Mind of a Story I have heard of two Irijlj-
men, who were feen, by their Mafter that
paid them their Wages, idling on the Top of
a Hay-cock j upon which, calling out to one
of them, " Sirrah ! what are you doing there
for my Money r" The Fellow anfwered,
Ugh, by my Shotd noiD, and I am doing no-
thing: " And what, lays the Mafter, is that
other Fellow doing along with you r" 5y my
Soul, fays Teague, and he is helpiiig me. If
one
t)AV IX.] Affairs of Irelakd. 183
one of thefe Gentlemen was afked the fame
Queftion, by thofe that pay him, he might
make the fame Reply ; and, indeed, fo might
an hundred others, both Male and Female,
who have Places and Penfions at the Expence
of this Country. Upon the whole, as I think
the flridleft Enquiry ought to be made into
the Legality of the Grant of the Chancellor-
fhip of the Exchequer, I humbly move, that
the proper Officer may lay before the Houfe
the Fiat for making out the Patent for that
Place, and alfo the Fiat for making out the
Patent of the Mafter of the Rolls.
Ordered accordingly, Nemine Contradicente*
Sir R.^ D .
MrS .
The greateft Diftindion, and highefl Pri-
vilege, of this Houfe, is to be the Purfe-bearer
of the Nation : To have the Power of de-
termining what Proportion of national Wealth,
confifting of the aggregate Property of Indivi-
duals, (hall be applied to public Purpofes :
This Power, which is exercifed by laying
Taxes upon the People, as it is of the higheft
Importance, (hould be delegated to others
N 3 with
184 Debates relative to the [Day IX,
with the greateft Caution, and only in Cafes
of the utmoft NecelTity. In Cafes of fuch
Neceffity, the Houfe has delegated this Power
to Grand-Juries, who have, from their pecu-
liar Knowledge of the feveral Counties, to
which they belong, the only Means of know-
ing the Exigencies of thofe Counties, and the
Sums neceflary to anfwer them :• In Confe-
quence of this Delagation, Grand-Juries have
a Power to tax the Inhabitants with fuch
Sums as fliall appear to them, by Affidavits,
and proper Vouchers, to be neceiTary for pub-
lic Ufes : But there is too much Reafon to
fufped; that this Power is frequently abufed,
and, therefore, I beg leave to bring in Heads
of a Bill for the better Regulation of the Pro-
ceedings of Grand-Juries, in the preparing and
forming of Prefentments, for the levying of
Money.
Ordered, that leave be given accordingly j
and that Sir R— i)— , Mr F— , and Dr
L — , prepare and bring in the Heads of fuch
a Bill.
Ordered, that the Order for the Day be ad-
journed till Mo?iday Morning next.
And
I)AyX.] Affairs of iR-EhA^jy, i8^
And then the Houfe adjourned until M?«~
day Morning next. Ten of the Clock.
MONDAY, Nov. 8, 1763.
TENTH DAY.
N the Committee for examining the nati-
onal Accounts, Mr J — B — Chairman.
Mr TV— H— got up, and faid, that he
could not help mentioning his Surprize at a
Charge which had been juft read of 170/.
paid to certain Perfons for Pigs, which had been
killed by a Dublin Mob. He faid his Suprize
was the greater, as the Demand of the Propri-
etors of thofe Pigs was only 70 /. how this 70/,
during a late Adminiftration, had fwelled to
170/. he faid he could not imagine. It is
true, fays he, thefe Pigs are mentioned under
the Denomination of Cattle, but, whatever
Honour they may derive from this Appellati-^
on, it cannot be fuppofed to increafe their Va-
lue. I only mention this, to fliew that thefe
Pigs are among the dear Bargains which the
Public has lately paid for.
N4 Mr
i86 Debates relative to the [Day X.
Mr R^ F— .
Before this Committee for examining the
national Accounts is adjourned, I think it in-
cumbent upon me to take Notice of, what I
think, a very important Obje6t of their Atten-
tion, as it relates to the public Income and Ex-
pences, with Refpedl to an Article, upon
which, in my Opinion, the very being of our
Conftitution in great Meafure depends. In
the firfl Place, Sir, I am extremely forry to
fay, that though our Revenue has, of late
Years, very confiderably increafed, yet our
Expences very confiderably exceed our Re-^
venue : This Circumflance is the more a-^
larming, as no National Advantage is procur-^
ed by this Increafe of Expence, and as it has
arifen at a Time, when our publick Affairs
were in the fame Situation as they were,whe
our Expences were greatly lefs than our In-
come, though our Income was greatly lefs
than it is. This^ Sir, feems to indicate, at
leaf!:, an injudicious Management in the Dif-
pofal of public Money, and lays the Founda-^
tion of a public Debt, which, by a Continua^
tion of the fame Management, muft perpe-
tually encreafe. I may, perhaps, be told that
the
i
DayX.] Affairs of Ireland. 187
the Sum, annually added to this Debt, will be
but I'mall, but, I anrwer, that we could not
poffibly fupport it, if it were large, and that
as large and fmall are relative Terms, a
Debt that would be fmall to another Nation,
will be large to ours. The Country is of
confiderable Extent, and contains many more
People than we can properly employ; in
thefe Circumftances, the NecefTaries of Life
will always be procured with difficulty j for,
if tb.ere is not an extendve Commerce, and
brilk Trade, or, in other Words, if thofe, that
want the Neceffaries of Life are not enabled
to procure them, by the Pradice of thofe
Arts, that fupply the Superfluities of it to
others, they will be rather a Burthen than a
Benefit to the Public. Now, it is unhappily,
but too true, that the Commerce of this
Country lies under very great Difadvantages,
andiiG home Trade, orManufadories, are very
much retrained by a miftaken Policy, that
is perpetually op^^rating in Favour of a fifter
Country. Our People, in general, therefore,
muft neLeflanly be poor, and unable, to fup-
port Taxts, lil'e other Countries, to pay In-p
tereft for a public Debt ; on the contrary, it
is neceffary, that we fhould be able to make
fpme Savings froni our public Revenue, in
ord?f
l88 Debates relative to the [Day X.
order to counter-baliance our National Dilad-
vantages, by pecuniary Encouragements, for
the Encreafe of our Manufadories, and the
Improvement of our Trade : Upon this
View of our Situation, and I appeal to all that
hear me, whether it is not true ; it is manifefl
that a National Debt, comparatively very
fmall, will to us be total ruin -, and, give me
leave to fay, it w^ould be fo, if our Trade and
Manufiftures were in a much better State
than they are j becaufe our Money, what we
have of it, does not circulate among us, but is
drained off by Abientees, and fquandered on
the other Side of the Water : I might here
enlarge upon the very mortifying Topics I
have mentioned, I might fl:iew in what parti-
culars our Trade and Commerce are reftrain-
ed, I might fliew that the Poverty of our
People renders our Home Confumption fmall,
and that we import no Article, up«n which
we have a Profit, to export again, and I might
draw a Parallel between our Situation and
that of others, with Refped: to Trade, in a
great Variety of Particulars, and fl^ew our
Difadvantage in each ; but, as it is not necefTa-
ry for the Proof of what I have advanced in
general, I {hall fpare myfelf, and the other
Members of this Affembly, the Pain that a
minute
Day X.] Affairs of Ireland. 189
minute Examination of our Difadvantages,
and DiftrefTes, muft inevitably produce. I
fhall only fay, that I have, with fonae Pains
and Trouble, made a very exacSt Calculation
of our Income, and our Expence, for fome
Years back, and that I find there was, in the
Year 1757, a Saving to this Country, after the
Demands of Government were fatisfied, of
86,095/. to be laid out in Improvements;
there was alfo, in the Year 1759, a Saving of
(^6,184/. but in the Year 1761, though the
Revenue was then confiderably encreafed, the
Demands of Government exceeded it no lefs
than 79,181 /. and, in the Year 1763, though
the Revenue ftill continued to encreafe, yet
the Exceedings amounted to 66,680 /. I
muft obferve, alfo, that, in this Computation,
I have taken no Account of the Duties ap-
propriated to the Payment of Intereft, for the
Loan, becaufe they have very little more than
anfwered that purpofe. This Increafe, in our
Expences, being fo great, notwlthftanding an
increafed Revenue, as, inftead of leaving us a
Surplus of 96,184/. to bring us in debt
79,181/. in one Year, requires a particular
Examination. One Article is obvious, the
Penlions ; Sums, large Sums, annually paid to
Perfons for performing no public Service;
Per.
igo Debates relative to thi [Day X.
Perfons v/ho have never contributed to the
Honour, or the Advantage, of this Country, to
the Value of a Mite, from whom it can-
not receive the lead Degree of either, and from
whom it is not even pretended that it will ; but
befides this, there is a much larger Sum than
formerly allowed for the Concordatum : The
Allowance, during the late Reign, was 5,000/.
but in the prefent it increafed to 1 0,000/. which
is one half, and to that there has fince been
an additional Increafe of no lefs than 1 6,000/.
more ; fo that the whole Increafe, in this one
Article, is no lefs than 26,000/. But there is
an Increafe, in another Article, that feems more
extraordinary ftill, and, I cannot mention it
without fome Degree both of Shame and In-
dignation — Secret Service — Of what Nature,
Sir, is this fecret Service ? We have no Trea-
ties to carry on with other Nations, no fecret
Intelligence to procure from abroad j nor do
I know of any Intelligence at Home, which it
is neccffary fecretly to procure, and fecretly to
communicate to Government. I fhould, there-
fore, think a very fmall Sum would fuffice for
this Article. 2,991 /. was found fufficient
in the Height of the War, for two Years, the
Years 1759 and 1760, and yet, for the two
laft Years, when the Exigencies of State muft
cer-
Day X.] Affairs of Ireland. 191
certainly have required lefs, we are charged
2>209 L more, the whole Charge for
thofe Years being 5,200/. This, Sir, ap-
pears extremely myfterious to me, and, I dare
fay, does fo to every Gentleman that hears me.
The Increafe in the Penfions is immenfe, for,
atprefent, they amount to no lefs than 42,627/,
19 J. 2d. more than the Civil Lift. I, there-
fore, humbly move, that this Fad: may be re-
cognized by this Committee, and that it be
the Refolution of this Committee, that the
Penfions do exceed the Civil Lift 42,627/.
195. 2d.
Mr P— r-, the A- G— .
As the Computation, by which the Penfions
appear to exceed the Civil Lift, is entirely an
arithmetical Operation, I think it is proper
that every Gentleman fhould have Time to
fatlsfy himfelf of the Refult of it, before he
concurs in a Refolution by which that Refult
is declared : The honourable Gentleman, who
fpoke laft, fays, it has coft him fome Pains
and Trouble, to make this Computation, and,
therefore, it is reafonable to fuppofe, that o-
ther Gentlemen cannot make it v^^ithout ; fo
that, if they arc not to take it implicitly from
him
lp2 Debates relative to the [Day X.
him, fome Time muft be allowed them, and,
I think, the Time of this Committee maybe
better employed, as I do not fee what End the
Relblution propofed will anfwer, when it is
made.
Mr i?_ F_.
Though the Computation coft me fome
Time, and Trouble, as it was neceffary for me
to ftate the Articles, both of our Income and
our Expence, and then to compare the A-
mount, it may now be done with the great-
eft Facility, becaufe the Accounts, ready
drawn up, and ftated, lie upon the Table, fo
that nothing more is neceffary than to write
down two fhort Lines of Figures, and, by the
moft fimple and eafy Operation in Arithme-
tic, to dedud one from the other. I, there-
fore, defire that the Chairman may make it
on behalf of us all, and report it, which, I
apprehend, will, at once, put an End to
doubt, and carry univerfal Convidtion with
it : The mere Convidtion of the Truth of the
Fa6t, is not, however, the Intent of my Mo-
tion, which I think it now the more necefTa"
ry to explain, as the honourable Gentleman,
who fpoke laft feems wholly at a Lofs to
guefs
Day X.] Affairs o/" Ireland. 193
guefs what it may be. My View, Sir, in the
Refolution, for which I moved, is, with all
pofTible Duty and Refped:, to lay before his
Majefty the Senfe of this Houfe, with Refpedt
to the great Increafe of the public Expence,
in an Article from which we can derive no
Advantage, and to a Degree, which, by gra-
dually burthening us with a Debt, that we are
wholly unable to bear, will terminate in cur
Ruin J this, I think, we owe, as an A6t of
Duty, to his Majefty ; and, as our Votes are
printed for the Information of the Public, I
think this Fa(5t, in which the Public is fo
nearly interefted, fhould appear in them. I
would not, however, have it fuppofed that I
am an Enemy to all Penfions indifcriminately,
for I think that Gentlemen, who have diftin-
guifhed themfelves in the Service of their
Country, have a Right to a Gratification, and
I think it is the Intereft of their Country that
they fliould have it j to reward Merit is to
produce it j the Public, therefore, will pur-
chafe greater Advantage by thus ftimulating
Individuals to fignalize themfelves in its Ser-
vice, than by expending the fame Sum in any
other Manner : All that I mean, is, to fhew
that this Article is fwcUed beyond its due
Bounds, and that the Difad vantage of con -
trad:-
jp4 Debates relative to the FDay X.
tra6ting Debts, the Interefl of which can only
be paid by the Impofition of Taxes, which
cannot be born, is greater than even the Re^
ward of Merit itfelf can countc-bailance j and,
I am confident, that if his Mc^jcfty was appri<^
zed of the Weight of our Burthen, he would
not fuffer us to bear it.
Mr Af— P-.
I (hall not enquire whether what is pro-
pofed, would, or would not, take up more
Time than can now be allotted for it, but, aa
the honourable Gentleman who fp(;ke lall,
faid, that the Refolution, for whicli he mov-
ed, was intended to be laid before his Ma-
jefty, as a folemn Adl of the Houfe, I am for
that Reafon, againft his Motion, for, making
it on a fudden ; fuch a Refolution would
come with infinitely more Weight and Dig-
nity, after the Members have taken Time for
Conlidcration ; there are many Objects of
Confidcration that will offer themfelves on
this Queftion, befides the mere Truth of the
Fad : Deliberation always gives Weight and
Force ; Precipitancy always has a contrary
Effecfl J the advantage of Deliberation we
may fecure by adjourning the Queflion till
to-
Day X.] Affairs of Ireland. 195
to-morrow, and, as I do not fee that the
fmalleft Inconvenience can refult from the
Delay I think this (hould be done.
Mr P— T—, the A. G. then made the
Motion for Adjournment.
MrE— S—P^,
As there can be no previous Queftion
moved for in a Committee, the Motion, for
Adjournment, is always conlidered as a pre-
vious Queftion, I muft, therefore, declare I
am fo far from thinking the Refolution in
Queftion will gain Weight and Force, by de-
lay, that I think it will greatly lofe, with Re-
fped to both J as the Fad itielf is manifeft at
fight, we can deliberate only whether we
will declare it, and furely this can fliew no-
thing, but an Irrefolution, and Lukewarmnefs,
which can neither do us Credit, nor our Coun-
try Service ; is not the Excefs of Expences,
above our Revenue, a Grievance that calls for
inftant Redrefs ? Is not the Confequence of
it equally manifeft and fatal ? Ought we not
to feize the firft Opportunity of making it
known to him, from whom alone Redrefs is
to be expeded ? And can delay have any
O other
196 Debates relative to the [Day X.
other Tendency, than to convince him, ei-
ther that our Danger is problematical, or, that
we have not a proper Senfe of it j will it
not, therefore, tend directly to counteradl the
very Refolution we are urged to delay, when
at laft it fhall be made ? If a Man was to fee
his Friend drowning, would he deliberate a-
bout throwing out a Rope to fave him ?
Would this Adion lofe any of its Weight, or
Force, or Ufe, by thathafle which the honeft
Impatience of Affedtion would naturally give
it ? And would not Deliberation, on the con-
trary, be a Proof, either that no Danger was
apprehended, or no Deliverance defigned ? I
confefs, Sir, that I cannot but fee Deliberation,
in this Cafe, and in ours, exadly in the fame
Light, and, therefore, I oppofe the Motion,
for Adjournment, on this Occafion.
Mr C— C— .
I am forry to fay, that the very Reafon,
which has been moft plaufibly urged for our
coming to this Refolution, is with me a Rea-
fon againft it. It is faid to be intended for
the Information of his Majefty, but, in that
View, I muft declare, it appears to me, not
only unneceffary, but officious. I have the
greatefl
Day X.] Affairs of ICELAND. i^y
greateft Reafon to believe that his Majefty is
already well acquainted with the State of the
Finances of this Country, and, with the Pur-
pofes to which its Revenue is appropriated 5
and, I have very good Authority to fay, that
our amiable and benevolent Prince will, from
his truly parental Tendernefs for us, his loyal
and afFedlionate People, take every Method
to redrefs whatever ihall appear to be really
a Grievance : I will venture to fay farther,
that the Lord Lieutenant, who has the good
of this Country equally at Heart, has already
received fuch Inftrudions from his Majefly^
relative to the Penfions, as, if known, would
effedually preclude the Motion, which the
honourable Gentleman, at the lower End of
the Houfe, propofed. I thought it my Duty
on the prefent Occafion, to mention this to
the Committee.
Mr £— 5— P-.
As I am fully perfuaded of the Veracity of
the honourable Member that fpoke laft, and
make no doubt of his having very good In-
telligence, I {hall readily admit what he has
been pleafed to advance j but, as he has
not any Appointment under his Majefty,
O 2 whicl;
198 Debates relative to the [Day X.
which can give him Authority to communi-
cate this Intelligence, I think, it ought not, in
any Degree, to influence our Determinations.
MrC— C— .
I do not prefume to fay, that I had any
Authority to communicate what I have juft
now mentioned to the Committee, nor fliould
I have taken the Liberty to have done it, had
it not been publicly faid this Day, by a Num-
ber of Gentlemen at the Caftle. The Grati-
tude that I owe to his Majefty, for the graci-
ous Declaration he has made, and the high
Senfe I have of the Obligations we are under
to his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, for
the kind Part he has been pleafed to take, in
this Affair, animated me fo far to trefpafs a-
gainfl; the flridl Rules of Propriety, as to be
the firft to communicate what I thought
would be very acceptable to the Committee,
though there are many Perfons in it, whofe
Employment, Confequence, and Experience,
give them a better Right to have done it.
Mr P- r— , the A. G. .
Though I did not intend to mention this
Affair
Day X.] Affairs in Ireland. 199
Affair, at this Time, yet, I now think, I am
called upon to declare what I know about it.
I am informed, that his Excellency the Lord
Lieutenant, upon his firfl coming to the Ad-
miniftration here, reprefented the State of this
Country, with Refpedl to Penfions, in fuch a
Light, to his Majefty, as induced him to take
them into Confideration, and, I am informed,
that his Majefty's Secretary of State has lince
written a Letter to the Lord Lieutenant,
which came to his Hand laft Night, impower-
ing him to communicate to this Houfe, his
Majefty's Intention, not to grant Penfions
upon this Eftablifhment hereafter, except,
upon very extraordinary Occafions, either for
Life, or Years.
Mr y— Fitz G-,
I beg leave to obferve, that, in my Opinion,
the Intelligence communicated by the ho-
nourable Gentleman, who fpoke laft, is pre-
mature, and contrary to Order. It is pre-
mature, becaufe when it is known that a par-
liamentary Enquiry is immediately to be
made, concerning the Legality of granting
away a very great Part of the Sum, annually
paid in Penfions, it is improper to anticipate,
O3 in
200 Debates relative to the [Day X.
in this Committe, a Debate, which is to come
on at a Meeting of the Houfe j and, it is
contrary to Order, to mention any Intelligence
of this Kind in a Committee at all. Befides,
it is at all Times improper, as well in the
Houfe, as in a Committee, to mention the
King, or his Miniflers, in a manner that may,
in the lead Degree, influence the Determina-
tion of this Part of the Legiflature, in a Quef-
tion, upon which the Public Intereft fo eflen-
tially depends. When his Majefly intends
us the Honour of a Meflage, and it is brought
to us by the proper Officers, at his command,
it is our Duty to receive and confider it j but,
when we are deliberating upon a Queflion,
that comes properly before us as Reprefenta^
tives of the People, we are not to be told that
his Majefly has faid this, or his Minifter has
faid that, much lefs are we to regard the
Whifpers of a Levy, or any thing that a Mi-
nifter thinks fit to drop in a feled: Junto, with
a View to have it reach this Houfe, in the
Courfe of its Circulation *. I exprefs myfelf
with
* The Lord Lieutenant, upon the firft Intelligence
pf his Majefly's Intention, with Rcfpedl to Penfions,
though:
DayX.] jfffdirs of Ireland. 201
with the greateft Zeal, on this Occafion, as it
certainly behoves us not only to avoid, with
the utmofl Care, all Royal or Minifterial In-
fluence, but even the Appearances of it.
Mr P- r-, A. G.
Not to controvert what has been offered
to iliew that the Intelligence juft communi-
cated to the Committee, is premature, or con-
trary to Order, it is fufficient, for my own
Juftification, to repeat what I faid before,
that I did not intend to communicate it, and
that I had not received any Authority fo to
do s but, as feme Hints had been thrown out,
I thought it better to explain the whole Mat-
ter, than to let Gentlemen go away with un-
certain Surmifes, and conceive Prejudices,
which it might afterwards be difficult to re-
move.
thought fit to communicate it to a few of the principal
Gentlemen ; but, not thinking he had fufficient Autho-
rity to make it Publick, he wrote to his Majefty for
permiflion fo to do ; this Permiflion he received, in the
Letter mentioned in this Debate, to have come to his
Hand the Night before ; and he then communicated it
to a Number of Gentlemen at the Cajile.
O A Mr.
202 Debates relative to the [Day X,^
Mr i?- F-,
Admitting what that honourable Gentle-
man has faid, with Refpecft to his Majefty's
Intention, and that his Intelligence was pro-
perly conveyed, I think it iliould by no means
preclude the Refolution it is fuppofed to ren-
der unneceflary j for, I obferve, that the Royal
Intention, as it has been reported to us, re-
lates only to Pcnfions for Lives, or Years ;
whereas, the great Burthen upon this Efta-
blifhment is Penfions during Pleafure, which
we feldom fee revoked, becaufe they are ge-
nerally effectual for the Purpofe intended. It
is manifeft, from the uniform Condudt of
thofe to whom they are granted, that their
Influence is more certain, and, therefore,
more dangerous, than that of others, and for
this Reafon, as to their immediate Tendency,
more worthy to be the Subjecfl of an Ad-
drefs.
Mr J— D — made ufe of fome Argu-
ments, in Favour of the Adjournment, upon
which, Mr B got up, and fpoke to the
following Effe(fl :
Day X.] Affairs of Ireland. 203
I fhould certainly oppofe the Adjournment,
if I had no other Objedion agalnft it, than the
ill Ufe which may poffibly be made of it ; I am
forry to fay, that, upon thefe Occafions, I
have frequently known lix or feven Gentle-
men meet, who have an Influence in this
Houfe, which is too often more prevalent
than Convidtion itfelf. In the prefent Cafe,
I fhould be very forry to have fuch a Meeting,
^nd, therefore, I am againft the Adjournment.
The Queftion for the Adjournment was
then put, and carried in the Negative 80 a-
eainft 71.
The Queftion was then put for the Mo-
tion, and pafTed in the Affirmative ISlem. Con,
It is remarkable, that the very fame Quef-
tion, on the very fame Occafion, was determi-
ned by the firft Divifion laft Seffions, when it
pafled againft the Adjournment 82 againft 80.
The Speaker then refumed the Chair.
Mr £— S— P— faid, that he fliould be
glad to know what Day it would be agreea-
able
204 Debates relative to the [Day X.
ble for him to bring into that Houfe a Com-
plaint of a Breach of Privilege, with Refpedfc
to Letters coming free to Members of that
Houfe ; this Privilege, he faid, he thought
lliould be fupported, and, he alledged, that an
E?igliJJj Letter, dire(fted to him at his Mother's
Houfe in himerick^ was charged at the Poft-
Office there, becaufe, when it came thither,
he happened to be at Dublin j this, he faid, he
thought a Breach of Privilege.
The R_t H_ble W^ H— F^,
P. M. G. got up, and faid, that he was of a
different Opinion : The Poft-Officein Ireland,
he faid, was a Branch of the Poft- Office in
England, and he apprehended that the Privi-
lege of Members of Parliament here, with
Refpedl to their Letters paffing free, was not
more extenfive than that of the Members in
England^ where it was an eftabliflied Rule,
that, if the Letter was not direded to the dwel-
ling Houfe of the Member, or to a Place where
he was adually refident at the Time, it fliould
be charged. He faid, that a Member of Par-
liament, mEnglandj had made a Complaint of
exadly the fame Kind as this of Mr P — ,
with Refpedt to the charging two Letters,
which he could produce, and, that being in
the
Day X.] Affairs of Ireland. 205
the Courfe of the Debate, convinced of the
Impropriety of Letters direded to Members
of Parhament going free to Places, where the
Member was not, and of the ill Purpofes to
which it might be abufed, he acqiiiefced \n
the Charge, and dropped his Complaint : Mr
F — , however, added, that he would not an-
ticipate the Debate, which would arife on the
Day that fliould be fixed for Complaints of
Breach of Privilege being heard, and exami-
ned, and that he v/as willing it fhould be fixed
as foon as was thought proper,
■ Mr P— replied, that he agreed, with the
Poft-Mafler, in allowing that the Poft-Office
in Ireland was a Branch of the Poft-Office in
England^ but infilled that the Privilege of the
Members in Irela?2d had no dependance up-
on that Country,
Mr F— interrupting him, anfwered, he
did not fay that it had.
Mr P — then proceeded, and faid, he was
fired at a Breach of Privilege of this Kind, as
many Arts had been pradlifed to prevent the
Members from enjoying the Advantages of it.
Jf e added, that it once happened that the Re-
folu-
2o6 'l)ebates relative to the [Day XI.
folutions of the Houfe, relative to this Quefti-
on, and in Favour of the Privilege, had been
fecreted and not printed.
TUESDAY, AVj. 8, 1763.
ELEVENTH DAY.
UvJ—Fitz-G—.
MrS ,
THE Penlions that are now charged upon
the civil Eftabliiliment of this Kingdom,
amount to no lefs than feventy-two Thoiifand
Poimds per Annum, befides the French and
military Penfions, and befides the Sums paid
as Salaries for old, and new unneceflary Em-
ployments, and thofe paid in unneceflary Ad-
ditions to the Salaries of others ; the Penfi-
ons, therefore, on the Civil Eftablifhment a-
lone, exceed the Civil Lift above forty-two
'Thoiifand Pounds. It appears to have been
the unanimous Refolution of this Houfe, in
the Year 1757, that the Increafe of Penfions
was then very alarming, and, as the Increafe
of
Day XI. Affairs of Ireland. 207
of Penfions, fince that Time, has been very
confiderable, it muft be now alarming, in a
much greater Degree. Pcnfions have gradu-
ally increafed every Year, from the Time that
their Increafe was declared to be alarming,
by a folemn Refolution of this Houfe. I
fpeak it with equal Aftonifhment and Con-
cern, and, I think, it mufl aftonifli and con-
cern all that hear me. There are many other
Circumftances that aggravate this Evil. Pen-
fions were not only increafed by the Minif-
ters, immediately after the folemn Declaration
of this Houfe, that they were already fo great
as to be of the mo ft fatal Confequence, had
been communicated, in a moft fubmillive
Manner, by an Addrefs, to the Crown ; but at
a Time when an expenfive War increafed the
real Exigencies of the State, and when a large
Supply, large, with Refpedt to the pecuniary
Abilities of this poor Country, was required,
and granted, and a very confiderable national
Debt willingly, and chearfully, contradted :
At a Time, too, when many new Regiments
Were raifed, which, as they would necelTarily
increafe the Influence of a Minifter, by creat-
ing new Appointments, might well have ex-
cufed us from paying penfionary Gratiftcati"
pns ; It might, reafonably, have been hoped,
that
2o8 Debates relathe to the [Day XI.
that our general Inability, our neceffary In-
creafe of Expence, our contracting Debts, and
our Increafc of the Minifter's Power, by raif-
ing new Troops, the Command of which
would be in his Difpofalj would, without any
Remonftrance from the Commons, have been
fufficient to deter him from laying upon us
the additional and odious Burthen of new
Penfions j yet, unhappily for us, Penfions
have been increafed, in Proportion to the very
Caufes why they fhould not encreafe ; and,
while our Ability has been growing lefs, and
the Influence of the Minifter more, we have
not only had our Money given away, in new
Penfions, but in Augmentations of the
Salaries that we have too long paid for doing
nothing. It is always, with Regret, that I
diicover the Nakednefs of my Country, but,
upon this Occafion, I ought not to hide it :
Upon this Occafion, I mufl remind you, that
Ireland is not more than one third peopled ^
that our Trade lies under fuch Difadvantages,
that two-thirds of the People we have are
unemployed, and are, confcquently, condem*
ned to the moft deplorable Indigence j a State
which cannot fail to render them wretched,
in Proportion as the Luxury of a few has
multiplied artificial Wants, to which they are
no
Day XI.] Affairs of Ireland. 209
no Strangers, but oF which they have no far-
ther Knowledge than juft ferves to excite
Envy and Difcontent. We have neither fo-
reign Trade, nor home Confumption, fuffici-
ent to diftribute the Conveniencies of Life a-
mong us, with a reafonable Equality ; or to
enable us to pay any Tax, proportioned to
our Number. This Illand is fuppofed to
contain three Millions ; and, of thefe, two Mil-
lions live like the Beafts of the Field, upon a
Root picked out of the Earth; almoft without
Hovels for Shelter, or Cloaths for covering.
What muft become of a Nation, in this Situ-
ation, which, at the fame Time, is contract-
ing a Debt that muft every Year increafe, by
a very confiderable Excefsof its Expences a-
bove its Income ? What muft become of a
Nation whofe idle Hands, inftead of being
employed, by the Introdudtion of Trade, and
the Eftabliftiment of Manufad:ures, are form-
ed into Corps of mercenary Soldiers, whom
the unhappy Community to which they be-
long, and to the Profperity of which their
Labour ought to contribute, is taxed to pay ;,
with this Aggravation, that the Expence
they can fo ill bear, is unnecefllirily increafed,
upon the Penfion Principles, by the Number
of Regiments, and Oflicers, being greatly more
than
2IO ^Debates rclathe to the [Day Xf^
than in Proportion to the Number of Men ; by
the Money paid to thefe Officers being fpent
in another Country, almoll: all the Staff,
which is very weighty, being Abfentees, and
feveral of the Re$>;iments themfelves beins
ordered out of the Kingdom ? What Me-
thod can be found to prevent the Ruin of a
State, in which thefe Evils not only continue,
but increafe ? What new Mode of Taxation
can be devifed ? Shall we tax Leather where
no Shoes are worn, or Tallow, where no Can-
dles are burnt ? What Tax can be raifed
upon the Neceffariesof Life, where they con-
fift wholly 'of Roots and Water ? and, where
Convenienciescanbut juft be procured ? What
Tax can be laid upon them that will not ope-
rate as a Prohibition, and, confequently, can
never be raifed ? If we cannot increafe our
Revenue, we have but one Alternative, we
muft either lellen our Expences, or be un-
done : Surely, it is not necefHiry to confider
how Ruin may be aggravated, to determine
our Choice ; and yet there are many Circum-
flances that will aggravate our Ruin, if we
fuller it to take Place ; thofe who have fuf-
fered in a good Caufe, who have facrificed a
private to a public Litereft, who have fuftain-
ed fuffering Virtue, or, alfcrted the Claim of
ne-
Id AY XL] Affairs of Ire LAN d. 2 i i
negleded Merit, have derived Confolation
from a noble Source, and have not only tri-
umphed, but rejoiced in Misfortune* Will
this be our Cafe? If we ourfelves, our
Wives, and Children, and all that are near and
dear to us, are ftript of our whole Birthright j
if our Conftitution is fubvertcd, our Freedom
deftroyed, and the wretched Inhabitants of
this loyal and magnanimous Country left to
perifh, for Want, in the Streets, what Com-
fort (hall we have in this dreadful Day of our
Vifitation ? Can we then refledl, with the
Patriot's Elation of Mind, that we fuffer for
the general Good of Mankind ? Can we footh
ourfelves with the confcious Generofity of
• having procured any important Benefit to our
Sifter Country ? Can we flatter Ourfelves
with a Loyalty that has faCrificed all to the
Gratification of our Prince ? or with a roman-
tic, but noble Liberality, that has laviflied our
whole Poflefiions, in rewarding thofe who
have opened new Mines of Knowledge, of
unlocked new Springs of Felicity ? — No 5
mortifying Confideration ! we are facrificing
Ourfelves to increafe the Folly and Extrava-
gance of thofe, whom Opulence has already
made extravagant and foolifh j or to enrich
the Servile and the Corrupt, whom it is the
P In-
212 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
Intereft of every State to keep poor. Some
private Service done to the King's Advifers,
is the Claim, the only Claim, of both Claf-
fes, to the Vitals of our Country ; and, what
is our confenting to pay Penfions to fuch
Wretches as thefe, but leaving our Property
to thofe who have ftabbed us to the Heart !
It is written, That the Wages of Si?i is Death j
but whoever will look into our Lift of Penfi-
ons, will have Reafon to fay, *' That the
Wages of Sin is Ireland,'' There are, indeed,
on that Lift, two Perfons who have an indu-
bitable Claim to our Gratitude j one in this
Kingdom, and the other in England -y but ma-
ny of the reft, on the Lift, are Names that arc
no where elfe to be found, that blot the Pa-
per, and diflionour the two worthy Perfons,
who are mentioned in the fame Margin : It
is not, indeed, pretended that they have Me-
rit, even in the Preamble of the very Patent
that gives them our Wealth ; it is there con-
fefled that they are feleded to good Fortune
hy fpecial Grace, and 7nere Motion : If we en-
quire what it was that qualified them for this
Diftindion, we ftiall find, that the Qualifica-
tion of fome, was, their having had Penfions
before, that were too fmall to gratify their Vi-
ces ; the Qualification of others, their contri-
buting
Day XI.] Affairs of Ir-rla^-d. 213
buting to the Vices of their Superiors, and
of fome, their Dexterity at procuring for a
Minifter, a parliamentary Influence : They
are of both Sexes, of all Countries, and of all
Claffes : The Foreigner, by having a Penlion
for Life, or Years, may employ our own Mo-
ney againft us ; for, though the Grant, in that
Cafe, might be refumed, yet it might, before
that Time, be transferred for an equivalent
Sum, which would be thus out of our reach :
The Native being worthlefs and corrupt, and
his very Demerit being his Recomrpendation,
is already adtually employed againft us, by fe-
cretly undermining our Independence, and
Liberty, and both concur in draining us
of Money to an Amount that muft load us
with an unfupportable Debt, and terminate in
our inevitable Ruin. Our Cafe, however, is
not defperate ; our Hope js in the Beft of
Princes, the Friend of Virtue, the Father of
his People : To redrefs this enormous Griev-
ance, nothing more can be ncceflary than to
acquaint him with it : To expofe the delu-
five Arts of his Advifers, and convince him,
by the Reprefentation I have now made, that
they are facrificing the Happinefs, almoft the
Exiftence, of three Million of his loyal and
dutiful Subjeds, to a few Wretches, of whom
P 2 he
2 14 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
he is totally ignorant, and whom, if he knew,
he would defpife and deteft. It can never be
fuppofed, that cur moft gracious Sovereign
would concur in fuch Meafures, if he might
do it without an exprefs Violation of the
Law, much lefs can it be fuppofed, that he
would fuffer the Law to be violated, which
he has publickly and folemnly engaged to de-
fend. That the Grant of the Penfions, in
Queflion, is contrary to Law, I fhall now
prove, by inconteftible Evidence, and, what-
ever Doubt fome Gentlemen may have, or
pretend to have, about the fatal Confequences
of our Penfions, I prefume that there are none
who doubt, or pretend to doubt, whether a
Pradlice fhould be fuffered, by which Laws,
that immediately affedt, not Individuals only,
but the very Conftitution are trampled under
Foot.
The Crown, Sir, has a public and a private
Revenue ; the public Revenue it receives as
a Truftee for the Public; and the private
Revenue it receives in its own Right. The
public Revenue arifes from the hereditary
and temporary Duties, and thefe are exprefly
appropriated to particular Purpofes ; fo that the
Crown is not a Truftee with a difcretionary
Power,
Day XL] Affairs of Irela^-d, 215
Power, but a Truftee, limited and prefcribed ;
receiving the Mooey, merely to apply it for
the Purpofes to which it is appropriated.
The private Revenue arifes from the ancient
Demefne Lands, from Forfeitures for Treafon,
and Felony, Prifage of Wines, Light-Houfe
Duties, and a fmall Part of the cafual Reve-
nue, not granted by Parliament, and, in this,
the Crown has the fame unlimitted Property
that a Subjedt has in his own Freehold.
Now, Sir, the private Revenue of the Crown,
probably, does not amount to 7,000 /. a Year,
io that the Penfions, amounting to 72,000/.
a Year, include an illegal Appropriation of
65,000 /. a Year, of an unalienable Revenue,
limitted to public Ufes,
That the public Revenue is thus limitted,
appears inconteftible, by the very Statutes on
which the feveral Duties that conftitute it are
raifed.
The Grant of the Excife is faid, in the Pre-
amble, to be for " Pay of the Army, and
** defraying other public Charges, in Defence
** and Prefervation of this Kingdom ;" the
Grant of Tonnage and additional Poundage,
*' for proteding the Trade of this Kingdom
P3 at
2i6 Debates relative to the [Day XL
" at Sea, and augmenting the public Reve-
" nue 5" and the Grant of Hearth-Money, as
" a public Revenue for public Charges and
*' Expences."
This Grant of Hearth-Money was made
in lieu of the Irijh Court of Wards , in which
the Crown had private Property ; and on
which Penfions had been charged ; and, there-
fore, the Legiflature, apprehending that thofe
to whom thefe Penfions had been paid, might
endeavour to obtain them out of this new
Revenue, was not content that they fhould
only be 'voidable by the general Appropriati-
on of the Grant in the Preamble, but added a
Claufe, exprefly enabling, that all fuch Penfi-
ons fhould be void ; enabling the Court of Ex-
chequer, in a fummary Way, to compell the
Grantee to re-pay all the Penfion that Tiould
be received, on Pretence of fuch Grant, and
inflicting a Forfeiture of double the Value, on
every Perfon, who fhould accept of fuch Pen-
fion ; it mufl alfo be remarked, that the
Claufe annulling Penfions contains no Excep-
tion in Favour of Penfions granted as Re-
wards for public Services; it is, therefore,
manifefl, that the Legiflature did not confider
fuch Penfions as Part of the public Charges -,
if
Day XL] Affairs of Ireland. 217
if they did, this Adl would be inconfiftent with
itfelf.
The A(fl for granting the Revenue of Ale-
Licenfes, not mentioning the Ufes for which
it was granted, in the Preamble, has reftrained
the Crown from charging it with Penfions, by
an exprefs Claufe.
The Ad: granting the Revenue of ftrong
Water, and Wine-Licences, was principally
intended to regulate the Retail of thofe Li-
quors, and not for the Income, which was
fuppofed to be inconfiderable j therefore no
Preamble was thought of, to declare the Ufes
of it, nor any exprefs Claufe to guard it a-
gainft Penfions ; yet, as there is nothing in. it
that fhews an Intention of private Property,
the Conftrudlion of this Ad: muft be govern-
ed by the ufual Intention of fuch Grants, for
this is the univerfal Pradtice, with Refpedl to
Conftrudions in Law, as might be (liewn
from a hundred Inftances.
The Grant of Poundage Is manifeflly in-
tended for public Ufes : It was originally
granted in the i^xYioi Henry the IVth, to the
military Fraternity of St George, for main-
P 4 tain-
2i8 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
iaining a military Force, in Defence of the
Englifi Pale againjl Rebels : An Adt of the
loth of of Henry the Vllth, recites, that the
Tax had been converted by the Fraternity to
private Ufes^ and, therefore, grants it to
the Crown for five Years ; at the Expiration
of this Term it was made perpetual by the
Ad: now in Force.
The IriJJj Quit-rents, and Crown-rents,
were referved on Grants of Lands, in which
the Crown had a private Property, and,
therefore, thefe Rents were originally the
private Property of the Crown, but, by the
Englijh A(ft of the nth and 12th of King
William the Hid. it is enaded " that thefe
" Rents flialiy£>r ever be for the Maintainance
*^ of the Government of Ireland y and that all
*' Penfions fince the 13th of February 1688,
" charged or to be charged thereon, fhould
" be void." Now, it cannot be argued, that
the exprefs Exclufion of Penfions proves them
not to be excluded by the general Appropria-
tion of the Duty ; becaufe, though the ex-
prefs Appropriation of the Duty, does ex-
clude them, an exprefs Claufe, was, notwith-
{landing, necefifary for two Purpofes ; one
was, that Penfions which would other wife
have
Day XI.] Affairs of Ik-el A^v>, 219
have been only 'voidable , might be void-, and
the other, that Penfions, granted between the
1 3 th of February 1688, and the Time of mak-
ing the Ad might be null, which might other-
wife have been deemed valid. It muft alfo
be obferved here, that this Adt, like that an-
nulling Penfions on the Hearth-money, makes
no Exception in favour of thofe fuppofed to
be granted for public Service ; fo that fuch
Penfions cannot be pretended to be for the
Maintenance of Government. It alfo appears
that the Legiflatures, both of England and
Ireland^ wifely forefaw, that an Exception, in
Favour of Penfions, grounded on public Me-
rit, would be abufed, by Servants of the
Crown, and Mifleaders of the People j and it
is manifefl, that charging the Revenue of Ire^
land with Penfions, is contrary to the Inten-
tion of both Legiflatures, in other Words is
contrary to Law,
This Fadt, once eftablifhed, totally pre-
cludes all that might be offered on the other
Side, yet, I cannot help obferving, that one
Argument, in particular, in Favour of Pen-
fions \%felo-de-fe ; it is faid, that Penfions are
ufeful for maintaining the Dignity of the
Crown J if fo, no Penfion fhould be grant-
ed
220 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
cd for Lives, or Years, either in Pofleffion,
or Reverfion, becaufe fuch Grant tends to
lefTen the Dignity of the Crown in fucceed-
ing Reigns; fome new Kind of Sophiftry,
muft, therefore, be invented to frame a plau-
fible Apology for the Advifers of fuch Pen-
fions.
I think, Sir, it would now be unneceflary
to take Notice of a Letter, faid to have been
written by one of the Secretaries of State,
concerning his Majefty's Intention, with Re-
fped; to Penfions, even if it had come legally
before us j I {hall, therefore, only obferve, that
it promifes nothing ; it fays, as we have beei
informed, by thofe who affecft to believe that it
ought to preclude our prefcnt Enquiry, that
Vtn^ions J or Lives or Tears, (hall not be grant-
ed for the future, except on extraordinary Oc"
cafions : Penfions, during Pleafure, therefore,
are out of the Queftion ; and who but the
Minifter is to judge of the Occafion, upon
which Penfions are to be granted for Lives, or
Years ? If the Minifter, Sir, fhall think fit to
advife the granting fuch Penfion, for the fu-
ture, he has nothing to do, but to pretend that
the Occafion is extraordinary, to evade the
Promife, in which we are now exhorted im-
pii-
Day XL] ^^fairsef Ireland. 221
plicitly to truft. Upon the whole, as the
prefent Load of Penfions is ruinous in itlelf, as
it is laid on, in Violation of the conftitutional
Laws of the Kingdom, as the Acquiefcence,
in fuch Violation, is a Breach of the Truil re-
pofed in us, and totally repugnant to our
higheft Intereft, and, as we have at prefent no
effedual Promife of Redrefs, I humbly beg
leave to move
" That an humble Addrefs be prefented to
to his Majefty, to reprefent, in the moft du-
tiful Terms, that the Debt of this Kingdom
is become very great. That the Penfions,
now in being, that have been placed on the
Eftablifhments of this Kingdom, are one of
the Caufes of the Increafe of the public Debt.
That thofe Penfions have been paid, and con-
tinue to be paid, out of all the Revenues of
this Kingdom without Diflindlion. That it
appears to this Houfe to be worthy of his
Majefty's Royal Confideration, whether the
Grants that have been made of thofc Pen-
fions, are agreeable to, or warranted by the
Laws of Kingdom, and whether the Reve-
nues of the Crown that have been given
for public Ufes, ought, or can by Law, be
applied to Penfions : And, therefore, moft
hum-
22 2 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
humbly to befeech his Majefty, to order it to
be made known, as his Majefty's Royal Will
and Command, to the Officers of the Trea-
fury of this Kingdom, that no Part of the
Revenues of Excife, Cuftoms, Poundage,
Hearth- Money, Quit-Rents, Ale Licences,
Wine, or Strong Water Licences, or of the
additional Duties, granted or to be granted in
this Kingdom, for any limited Term, be paid
or applied to any Penlion, or Annuity, grant-
ed, or to be granted, out of, or which may
any ways charge, or affedl the faid Revenues
of Excife, Cuftoms, Poundage, Hearth Money,
Quit Rents, Ale Licences, Wine, and Strong
Water Licences, and additional Duties, or any
of the faid Revenues, till it fliall firfl be de-
termined by a Court of Juftice, of compe-
tent Jurifdiclion, that the Crown may grant
Annuities, or Penfions, out of the faid Reve-
nues J and that his Majefty may be graciouf-
ly pleafed to give his Royal Orders to the
Officers of the Treafury, that no Penfions be
paid out of the faid Revenues, in any other
Manner, than the Judgment, or Decree, of a
Court of competent Jurifdi(5tion, (hall deter-
mine to be juft, and agreeable to the Laws
of this Kingdom; and that his Majefty may
be gfacioully pleafed to order his Majefty's
Ser-
Day XI.] u4ffairs of Irel AN T>. 223
Servants of the Law in this Kingdom, to
make that Defence, that the Laws of the
Kingdom fhall warrant, to every Suit that (hall
be commenced or carried on by any Pen-
iioner or Annuitant, claiming any Part of the
faid Revenues, till it (hall be judicloufly deter-
mined, in the moft folemn Manner, and by
the dernier refort, that the Crown may grant
Penfions, or Annuities, out of the faid Reve-
nues. That his Majefty's faithful Commons,
neverthelefs, do by no Means intend, that the
Crown fhall be deprived of the Means of re-
warding Merit, or of conferring thofe Boun-
ties, on proper Occafions, that the Honour
and Dignity of the Crown may require : But
that his Majefly's faithful Commons, on the
contrary, will be ready to provide a Revenue,
fuch as the Condition and Circumftances of
this Kingdom fhall admit of, to enable the
Crown to reward Merit, and, on proper Oc-
cafions, to confer thofe Bounties that may be
fuitable to the Honour and Dignity of the
Crown, if it fhall be determined, that the pre-
fent Revenues of the Crown, that have been
given for Public Ufes, ought not to be applied
to Penfions. Provided thefe Revenues be
referved and applied to the Support of his
Majeflv's Government in this Kingdom onlv."
Mr
224 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
Mr J— M— faid, that he did not pretend
to go into the nice Difquilitions of the Law,
or enter the Lifts with the worthy Member,
who fpoke laft, fo juftly pre-eminent in the
Profeffion ; but that he thought it his Duty,
when he intended to oppofe a Meafure of fo
great and upright a Man, to difclofe his own
Sentiments as the Motives of his Condudt,
however firmly he might be perfuaded they
would have but little Influence upon others.
Let us fuppofe, fays he, that the Houfe Ihould
come into the Motion ; that the King, in
confequence of it, fliould give Orders to his
Servants, to fupport a Suit intended to inva-
lidate his own Grants, and diftrefs the de-
ferving, for feme fuch I think the honourable
Gentleman has allowed to be in the Pen-
fioners Lift: ; let us fuppofe, that after long
litigation, at a vaft Expence to the Crown,
and to the total Ruin of the Penfioners, the
Grant ftiould be declared illegal, and invali-
dated accordingly ; I apprehend that the Evil,
refulting from fuch a Determination, would
be greater than the Good ; it would immedi-
ately injure the Prerogative of the Crown,
and, confequently, would be hurtful to the
Conftitution, of which the Crown is an eften-
tial
DavXI.] ^fatrs of Ireland 225
tial and confiderable Part. It is necelTary,
in all Conftitutions, that the Regal Dignity
fhould be fupported by a Power to reward
as well as to punifh : It is furely, contrary
to all Rules, as well as all Senfe of Right, and
Wrong, that our amiable and beloved Sove-
reign, who holds the Sword of Juftice in one
Hand, fhould hold a barren Sceptre in the
other. The two great Springs of all Adtion
are Hope and Fear, and, where Fear only o-
perates. Love can have no place j a People
ftimulated only by Fear, however free, and,
whatever Advantages of Government they
may boaft, are in a worfe State than the Sub-
jects of a Defpotic Prince ; Rewards and Pu-
nifhments are allowed to be properly in the
Hands of the Divine Being, w^hom Kings
(liould be taught to imitate, and, in every
State, it is as neceffary to ftimulate to fuch
A(5lions as are beneficial to a Sta^e, as to de-
ter from thofe which are hurtful : If Per-
fons of great Merit become grey in the Ser-
vice of their Country, muft they be difmifled
to ftarve when they are capable of this Ser-
vice no longer ? Or muft the Public fuffer by
having them continued in Places of which
they are unable to difcharge the Duty ?
To continue them would be furely the moft
ex*
226 Debates relative to the [Day Xf.
expenfive Way of rewarding them ; and to
difmifs them, unrewarded, would be little
better than adopting the horrid Cuftom of
the Indian Savages, who deftroy their Parent*
when they grow old j upon the whole, con-
lidering the prefent, juft, and gracious Dif-
pofition of his Majefty, and the amiable Con-
dudl of the Lord Lieutenant, with Refped
to the Penfions on this Eftablifhment, I really
think Reftridions are unnecefTary ; and, as I
fhould be forry to render his Majefty's divine
Charadteriflic of delighting to do Good in-
effedual, I muft declare myfelf againft th*
Motion.
Mr R- I,-.
Mr S ,
I am fo aftonidied. Sir, at what I have
heard from the honourable Gentleman, wha
fpoke laft, that I know not where to begin
my Reply j becaufe it has been admitted,
that two Perfons, who receive Penfions from
this Eftablilhment are worthy, he fets out
upon a Suppofition, that Penfions, in general,
are the Reward of Merit, though they have
been exprelly faid to be given for the Services
firft.
t)A,Y Xi.] u^Jairs of Ireland', 227
6f Vice, to Vice, to be a Superfluity added to
Wealth, or, the Means of Luxury and Intem-
perance, to Ignorance and Sloth > If^ upon the
Principle, that it is better for ten guilty to e-
fcape, than for one innocent to fufFer, he
would infinuate, that all the Penfions fhould
be continued, for the Sake of the few who
deferve them, he muft, firfl, fhew, that the
Fund propofed to be eftablidied for enabling
the Crown to reward Merit, will be inade-
quate to the Deferts of thofe few ; for, other-
wife, there is no Neccflity for continuing Pen-
fions to the unworthy, upon pretence, that
they muft otherwife be taken from the defer-
ving : Befides, Sir, if that was the Cafe, his
Principle concludes direcflly againft him ; for
many more innocent Perfons will fuffer, by
the Continuation of Penfions, as they ftand at
prefent, than by the total Annihilation of
them all; by their Continuance, Sir, the
whole Nation muft fuffer, as the honourable
Gentleman, who made the Motion, has (liewn
by his mafterly Addrefs, not to the Pafiions
only, but the Underftanding. What then
can the Gentleman mean, by fuppofing, that,
an Enquiry into the Legality of thefe Grants,
will reftrain the King's Power of doing Good ?
Is the Gratification of a certain Number of
Q^ fervll?'
228 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
fervile, obfcure, vicious, idle, and voluptuous
Wretches, at the Expence of a Nation, doing
Good ? Will not his Majefly rejoice to be
undeceived, and to have his Benevolence di-
reded to its proper Objed: ? Would he not
alfo be glad to have his Bounty kept within
its proper Channel, rather than fufFered to
overflow its Banks, and ruin the Country ?
This Country, Sir, might eafily be made a
bright Jewel in the BnfiJJo Crown, and, it is
now able to contribute fomething to the ge-
neral Stock J it may be faid. Sir, like the
Bird in the Fable, to produce one golden Egg
in a Day, but, if thofe who receive the gra-
dual Tribute are impatient to feize the whole
Treafure at its Source, they will fare, as the
Peafant did, who ripped up his Bird, and fuf-
fei by the fame Folly and Rapacity that de-
flroyed their Benefactor. But, I am really,
Sir, almoft afraid to follow the honourable
Gentleman farther j he has told us, Sir, that,
if the Grant of Penfions is illegal, it ought to
be, notwithftanding, permitted, for fear of
hurting the Prerogative. Is it the Preroga-
tive of the Crown, Sir, to act contrary to
Law ! And have we lived to hear this Prin-
ciple advanced in an Irijh Houfe of Com-
mons ! Upon this Occasion, my Humanity
retrains
JDay XL] Affairs of iR-E-LA-iiD. 229
reftrains me from making any Remark, and,
I am fure, the Senfe of the Houfe muft ex-
cufe me from a Reply. But, Sir, we have
alfo been told, by a mofl: extraordinary De-
du6lion of Argument, that if we do not fuffer
ourfelves to fink under the prefenc exorbitant
Load of Penfions, we ihall be in a worfe State
than the Slaves of a Tyrant in Barbary ; dread-
ful Dilemma, and aflonifhing Paradox ! but
how is it made out ? Why, if we limit the
Penfions, we fhall totally annihilate the King's
iPower to reward Merit ; if we annihilate his
Power to reward Merit, he can never excite
Hope ; if he excites no Hope, he can adl
only upon our Fear, and thofe, that are fti-
hiulated only by Fear, are worfe off than
Slaves in Barbary. If it is poffible to recoiled:
myfelf, among all thefe Wonders, and fee my
Way through this Confufion, let me afk, has
the King of Great Britain no Source for the
Rewardof Merit, but 7r//7:> Penfions ? Let us
look round, and take a View of the Servants
of the Crown, and their Servants, and the
Servants of their Servants, in every Depart-
ment j and, let us count their Numbers, and
theValue of their Employments ; we iLall foon
be convinced, that the Service of the State is
moft abundantly its own reward j of how
0^2 many
230 Debates relathe to the [Day XI.
many does the firft and principal Clafs con-
fift, who, in general, are paid for doing no-
thing ? And how much more numerous
are the fubordinate Claffes that are paid for
doing, what the others leave undone ? While
all thefe lucrative Employments are in the
Gift of the Crown, is Merit to go wholly un-
rewarded, if we reduce our Penfions within
the Limits of our Ability ? Is Merit to be
wholly unrewarded, if our Vitals are not
drained away for thofe who have no Merit
at all ? Amazing Abfurdity ! But if our
Penlions are reduced, and our Laws kept
facred,worfe Confequences ftill follow ^ we
are then to adl from no Motive but Fear, and,
if fo, we are in a worfe State than Slaves in
Barbary, It is fomewhat difficult to con-
ceive, what makes the State of the Subjedls
of Morocco deplorable, if it is not a (lavilli
Subie(ftion from a principal of Fear ; and, if it
iS;, there cannot be lefs Difficulty in conceiving
Jiow our State can become worfe, fuppofing
the fame Effe<ft to be produced among us, from
the fame Caufe ; but is that honourable Gen-
tleman now to learn, that, in Barbary^ the
Innocent are not exempted from that Fear,
which in Britai?i can only operate upon the
Guilty? Will any Man in Britain fear that
his
Day XI. J j^Jairs of Ireland. 231
his Property fhould be arbitrarily feized by a
Creature of Power, that his Perfon fhould be
ill treated, or his Family turned into the
Street, by the brutal and capricious Difplea-
fure of fome Delegate of Defpotifm, of whom
he does not dare to complain ? Will honeft
Induftry be brought under the Fear of thefe
Evils, by a Limitation of IriJ/j Penfions, or a
Defence of our Conftitution, againft illegal
Demands ? Of what, Sir, are we to live
in fear ? In Britain we can fear nothing, but
Punilliment for breaking the Law j if we do
not fuffer that Law, which is equally the
Safeguard of the Innocent, and the Scourge of
the Guilty, to be rendered ineffedlual, and
broken with Impunity. While we ad: in a
fleady Conformity to our public and private
Duties, we may fet Power at defiance, and
live facred from the Fear that makes Slaves,
in Barbary, wretched, though not one Far-
thing fhould be paid, in Penfions, from this
Time for ever. But this Gentleman has
aflced, whether thofe who have grown grey,
in the public Service, are to be left to flarve,
when they can ferve the Public no longer ?
Let me alk, in my turn, has this Gentleman
never heard of Employments being executed
by Deputies ; if a Deputy is admitted when
Q 3 ^^^
232 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
the Incumbent is able, can he fuppofe a De-
puty will not be permitted, when the Incum-
bent has furvived his Ability ? He afks, mufl
the Public be injured, by continuing Perfons
in Office, whom Age has rendered unable to
perform their Duty ? And, I afk, is the Pub-
he injured by putting thofe into Office who
were never able to perform their Duty at all 3
when the Service is conftantly exa<fled from
thofe whom the Public pays for performing
it, and when none are appointed to receive
this Pay of the Public, but thofe who are able
to perform the Service effedually, for which
it is allotted, it will then be time enough to
confider of Expedients, for rewarding the
paft Services of thofe who are difabled from
future. I fholild be forry to impute the very
extraordinary Things, which, that honour-
able Gentleman has thought fit to drop in this
AlTembly, to the leaft favourable Caufe ; but
J folemnly declare, they appear to me to be
of fuch a Nature, that I do not know whether
it is more to his Difadvantage, to fuppofe,
that he does or does not believe what he has
advanced ; however, as he has thought fit to
declare, that he would not oppofe the Motion,
without Reafon, I hope he will now fee no
Reafon to oppofe it, at leaft, no Reafon a-
gainfl
Day XI.] Affairs of Ireland. 233
gainft providing fome Remedy for the Evil
which it was intended to remove.
Mr J — D — fpoke next, againft the Mo-
tion, but his Speech confifted chiefly of fome
nice Diftindions between the Statute and
Common Law, which he flated with great
Force and Perfpicuity.
Mr J-— G— , the S. G.
Mr S ,
However prejudicial I may think the en^
creafe of Penfions to this Kingdom, I muft
confefs, that the Method propofed by the
honourable and learned Gentleman, as a Re-
medy, is fuch as I fhall oppofe, with as ftrong
a Conviction of its Impropriety, as of any
Meafure that has hitherto come to my Know-
ledge. In the firft Place, Sir, I fhould be
very forry to admit, that the Conftitutional
Power of this Houfe was fo inconfiderable, as
to require Affiftance from a Court of Law, to
remedy a fuppofed Grievance, with Refpecft
to the Difpofil of public Money j fuch Affif-
tance is wholly unprecedented, and totally
inconfiftent with an Opinion of great Im-
portance, hitherto uncontroverted, that the
Q 4 lioulc
I
234 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
Houfe has a Power within itfelf, adequate to
the Purpofe.
I miift alfo obferve, that, among the manyl
Prerogatives with which the Crown is confti-J
tutionally invefced, that of difpofing of thej
pubhc Money, when depofited as an aggre-
gate Fund, in the Treafury, is one : Th(
Crown is retrained, in the Difpofal ofpubHc'
Money, only with Relped: to fuch Duties as
are, by Adt of Parhament, exprelly appropri-
ated to fome feparate and particular Ufe,
without being brought to fuch aggregate Fund.
There muft be, in fome Part of the Legilla-
ture, an executive and dire(5ling Power, and,
in our Conftitution, this Power is well known
to be lodged in the King : It is alfo well
known, that, to prevent the Abufe of this
Power, it is made liable to the immediate in-
fpedion, and controul, of the other Parts of
the Legillature, particularly of this Houfe;
|f the Crown is intrufted with the Power of
;naking Peace and War, railing and diiband-
ing Armies, building Fortifications, and Ships,
for the Defence of the State, creating fuch
new Employments as may be thought necef-
fary for its Service, and rewarding public Me-
pt, to ftimulate others to deferve Reward j
furely
■Day XL] Affairs, of Ireland. 235
furely the Power of doing thefe Thing?
would be nugatory, and iniignificant, if the
Means of exerting it were not in the fame
Hands j it would, indeed, be a mere nominal,
not an adual Power j in other Words, it
would be no Power at all j for, in what Senfe
can the King be fald to have a Power of raif-
ing an Army, or creating an Employment, if
he has not the Power of appointing the Sums,
neceffary for thofe Purpofes, to be paid out of
the Treafury ? This Power is difcretionary,
but it is under controul, as I have before ob-
ferved, fo that the Crown muft be confidered
as a Truftee for the Public, with Refpe(3: to
the public Money, and, though intrufted with
the Application, yet accountable for it : But,
I defire it may be underftood, tJiat, when I
mention the Crown, I mean the Servants of
the Crown, for, it is an inviolable Maxim, that
the King can do no Wrong. Now Penfions,
Sir, I think, muft be confidered as Expences
neceffary for carrying on Government, and
there are two Ways by which they may be if-
fued, one is by Patent, under the great Seal,
for Lives, or Years ; the other, by the
King'-s Letters, under the Privy Seal : Both
thefe Ads are carried into Execution by the
King's Servants, who are all accountable to
this
236 Debates relative to the [Day XL
this Houfe, whenever it fhall think proper to
make an Enquiry into their Condud:, with
Refped: to the Application of pubHc Money ;
and, without the Forms, by which the Offi-
cers, who ad in fuch Apphcation, are afcer-
tained, no Money can be legally iiTued : It
happened, in KingWilliam's Time, that there
w;as a fmall Overplus, in the Hands of Lord
Falkland^ firft Lord of the Admiralty, and,
that the King wrote to him for it, upon which'
it was fent. But the Parliament thought him
fo blameable for paying the Money, without , |
tlie Warrant for its having gone through the
proper Offices, that they were very near ex-
pelling him. It appears, therefore, I think,
with the ftrongeft Evidence, that this Houfe
has, in itfelf,, a fufficient Power to prevent the
M if- application of public Money, and to call
the great Officers of the Crown to account for
it, if it has been mif-applied. It can effeduf
ally prevent the Mif-application of it, by flop-
ping the Supplies j and this was adually done
in the Year 1703, for, though but few Penii-
ons were then granted, yet two of them were
fo improper, that the Houfe difcontinued
them. As this Houfe, therefore, is able to
prevent the Abufe of the Power of rewarding
pafl Services, and Sufferings, which the
Crowft
Pay XI.] ^Jairs of Ire LAKD. 237
.Crown has ever claimed, and exercifed, and
which appears to be eiTentially necefl'ary to
Government, it feems to me wholly unac-
countable, and unreafonable, to bring this
Power into Queftion, merely upon Pretence,
that it has been abufed. If the King, Sir,
fliould pardon every Felon, that is capitally
convidled, can it be concluded, that he has,
therefore, no Power to pardon Felony ? The
long Pradice of the Crown to grant Penfions,
is, alone, a ftrong Prefumption of its Legali-
ty : Penfions were granted fo long ago as
the Reign of Henry the Vlllth, and, from
that Hour to this, the Pov/er of granting them
has never been called in Queftion, though the
Abufe of it has been frequently the Subjed: of
Complaint, and, at a Time, when there has
been the ftrongeft Difpofition to catch at e-
yery Thing that might reftrain the Preroga-
tive. But, Sir, the Condud of this Houfe
furniflies more than negative Proof, that the
Grant of Penfions is legal. Penfions, Sir,
have been made fubjed: to a Tax of Six-pence
in the Pound, but, if they were confidered by
this Houfe as illegal, they could not be legally
taxed. Befides, Sir, I do not fee by what
Rules of Conftrudion, Penfions, in Reward
of paft Services, can be ftiewn not to be in-
clud-
2^8 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
eluded in the Words public Charges^ or the
necejfary Support of Government -, if they can-
not, the granting them is authorized by the
very Ad:s of Supply. The Preamble of the
Adts of Excife, and the additional Tonnage,
and Poundage, exprefs that thofe Duties are
granted for certain Purpofes of public Utility,
and defrayi?ig other public Charges. In the
Preamble to the A6t, by which Hearth- Mo-
ney was inftituted, on the abolishing of the I-
rifi Court of Wards, and, in that, for Ale-Li-
cences, thofe Duties, being faid to be for pub-
lic Charges and Expences^ are fecured from be-
ing hable to Penfions, by an exprefs Claufe :
Now, Sir, if the Words, which fubmitted
them to public Charges, and Expences, did
not make them liable to Penfions, why were
Penfions expreily excepted ? I know we have
been told, that this Exception was made ex-
prefsly, becaufe it was apprehended that
thofe who had Penfions, on the Court of
Wards, and loft them on its Abolition, would
apply for Pvcdrefs out of thefe new Duties ?
but, does the Application make any Differ-
ence in the Thing applied for ? If the Crown
had not a Pov/er to grant thefe Penfioners
Redrefs by the Ad:, did their Defire to be re-
drefTed, make it nccelTary to fortify the Adi
vi^ith
Day XL] ^Jkirs of Ireland. 2%g
with new Power againft them ? The Crown
either had, or had not, a legal Power, to grant
them Penfions out of thefe new Duties j if it
had, the Words public Charges includes Pen-
fions ; if it had not, the Exception was re-
dundant and abfurd : It is faid, indeed, that
it was added to render fuch Penfions not only
'voidable y but void -^ but who can imagine, Sir,
that the Legiilature was then fo fhort fighted
as to fee only a fingle Spot of the Objedl be-
fore them ? Who can imagine, that, for the
fake of rendering 'void, what was already
'Voidable, they would eftablifh the Conftrudi-
on of all Ads in which Penfions were not
exprefsly guarded againft, in fuch a Senfe as
to include the Power of granting Penfions ?
TheLegiflature knew that all Ads had always
been fo conftrued, whether right or wrong,
and, if they had intended effedually to prevent
Penfions in general, they would not have ex-
cepted them, by a particular Claufe, in a parti-
cular Ad, which would, by the ftrongeft Im-
plication, render the Duties granted by all o-
ther Ads liable to them. I need not tell the
honourable Gentleman, who made the Mo-
tion, that the common Law confifts of Cuf-
toms and Ufages, of long Prefcription, and
that no Right, claimed by common Law,
can
240 Debates relative to the [Day Xf,
can ceafe, except it Is exprefsly taken away
by Statute. Now, Sir, I have proved, that
the Crown has a Right, by common Law,
to grant Penlions out of the aggregate Sum,
paid, by Duties, into the Treafury, becaufe the
Crown has done it prefcriptively for Time
immemorial ; and it is incumbent, upon the
honourable Gentleman, to prove, that this
Right is taken away exprefsly, except by the
particular Claufes of the particular A6ts juft
mentioned ; there is no need to prove that
the Words for ptilf tic Charges, give this Pow-
er, but only, that neither they, nor any other
Words in thofe Ad:s, where Penfions are not
excepted, take it away. Why Penfions were
exprefbly prohibited^ in particular Statutes, it
is not my Bufinefs to enquire j for the Duties,
granted by thofe Ads, are out of the Queftl-
on } but it may reafonably be fuppofed, that
the Court of Wards was entirely given in Pen-
lions, and that the Money was paid away to
the Claimants, before it came into the Exche-
quer, with other Particulars of Abufc, and
Mifmanagement, which made the Exception
more expedient in that Statute than in others.
But let us admit, that the Meafure, propo-
fed by the Motion, was not incongruous, nor
im-
DayXI.] L^/^/rj c/ Ireland.' 241
improper in itfelf, it is ftill certain that the
Execution of it would be attended with in-
fuperable Difficulty, and produce the mofl
aggravated Diftrefs. It has been admitted,
that there are fome Perfons of Merit on the
Peniloner's Lift j and, it cannot be denied,
that there are aifo fome Noblemen, who have
no other Support, and that, as the Peerage
conftitutes one third of the Legiflature, it
ought to be fupported. Many Perfons, too,
who have obtained Penfions by their Merit,
have, by the Neceffity of their Affairs, been
obliged to fell them, for a valuable Confidera-
tion, to others ; the PolTeffors of Penfions
have all formed Habits of Life, proportioned
to their Incomes, which they had the greateft
R^afon to think permanent and fecure, for the
Life, or the Term, on which they were grant-
ed. Now, Sir, if fuch a Suit is commenced
as the Motion propofes, the immediate Con-
fequence will be, that the Payment of all
thcfe Penfions muft be ftopped, till its De-
termination, which, as the Suit would be of
a very nice and complicated Nature, would
probably be a great Number of Years, efpe-
cially, as the Crown will be under no diffi-
culty in carrying it on, whatever may be the
Expence, and will certainly carry it through all
the
242 Debates relative to the [Da y Xli
the Courts by appeal ; let us now confider^J
a Moment, the Diftrels that will inftantly anc
inevitably follow our agreeing to this Motion
what Numbers will, at one fudden Stroke, be
reduced from a State of Comfort, and Conve«
nience, to a Want even of Bread, Perfonsj
who have no Means of fupplying themfelvesi
with the NecelTaries of Life, having beei
taught no manual Art, and having neither
the Knowledge, nor the Money, necefiary to
Trade ; Perfons who have not been ufed to
flruggle with Adverlity ; Women that mufl
perifli with Penury and Anguifli -, Children
thiit muft be left to the Storms of Life, with-
out Shelter or Protection. What mufl be-
come of the hoary Veteran, after a long Life
fpent in the public Service ? What muft be-
come of the honeftAllignee, who, perhapSjhas*
laid out the v/hole Product of long Labour,
Diligence; and Lidufcry, in the Purchafe of a
Penfion ? And what muft become of thofe to
whom thefe Perfons are indebted, whofe only
Security was the Penfion, and many of whofe
Subfiftence depends upon the Sum that they
are to receive at Quarter-Day r I expert an
Anfwer to thefe Queftions, not from the Un-
derftanding only, but the Humanity of thofe
that hear me, and, as I think, I have proved^
fi;ft.
Dav XL] Affairs of Ireland." ^43
firft, that the Crown has a Right to grant
Penfions out of the aggregate Fund, paid into
the Treafury ; fecondly, that this Houfe has
a Right, and a Power, inherent in itfelf, to re-
ftrain them when exorbitant j and, thirdly,
that it would be cruel, and injurious, inftantly
to fufpend the Payment of thofe already
granted. I hope no Gentleman prefent will
think it expedient to call this Power of the
Crown into Queftion ; to have Recourfe to a
Court of Law for Redrefs, which is in their
own Power 5 or to fufpend the Payment of all
the Penfions, now granted, till fuch Suit is de-
termined J and, if not, they muft give their
Voices, with me, againft the Motion, as a moft
extraordinary, unprecedented^ and unconftitu-
tional Meafure.
Mr T%— B — then got up, and faid, that
he could not help adding one Obfervation to
the many that had been juft made, by the
learned Gentleman, againft the Motion : He
faid, that the commencing a Suit, and obli-
ging the Crown to defend the Validity of its
own Grants, in a Court of Law, might raife
very dangerous Sufpicions, and Doubts, in the
Minds of the lower Clafs of People, who
might, too probably, infer, that the Proceed-
R inss
244 Debates relative to the [Day XI]
ings of Government were unwarrantable an<
unftable, at a Time when they feemed al*
moft univerfally difpofed to doubt the Vali-
dity of the Laws, and difpute their Executi-i
on ; he added, that he underftood that the
Suit, propofed by the Motion, would be of
Difadvantage, to every Clafs of People, except
the Gentlemen of the Law.
Mr J— Fitz-G — replied, that no Ap-
prehenfion of any Irregularity, which might
be committed by an unthinking and mifguid-
ed Populace, ought to intimidate that Houfe
from doing its Duty, or prevent an Enquiry
into any Practice, concerning the Legality of
which there was the lead Doubt : He added,
alfo, that, in his Opinion, the moft effedual
Way of preventing fuch Irregularities, and
quieting the Minds of the People, was, to
fhew a proper Zeal and Activity in redreffing
Grievances of every Kind. That, as to the
Hint, with Refpedl to the Gentlemen of the
Law, it did not, in the leaft, touch him, for
he declared, he fhould never be Counfel for a
Penfioner, and, he was very well perfuaded,
he iliould not be employed on the other Side
of the Queifion.
Mr
Day XL] Jffairs of Ireland. 245
Mr H— JF— .
MrS ,
I have attended very diligently, Sir, to the
Arguments of the learned and honourable
Gentleman, who firfl fpoke againfl the Moti-
on, and, I think, his Objedlions may be redu-
ced to three Heads ; firft, that the King has
ia Pov^er over the public Money, paid as an
aggregate Sum into the Treafury, by com-
mon Lav/ ; or, if he has not fuch Right, by
common Law, he derives it from general
Words, in the Preambles of the Statutes, for
laying certain Duties refpedively, except
where Penfions are exprefsly excluded : Se-
condly, that this Power is under the Controul
of Parliament, and, therefore, we have no
need to have recourfe to a Court of Law :
And, thirdly, that the Suit propofed will
greatly diftrefs many Individuals, fome of
whom have deferved their Emoluments.
Now, Sir, notwithftanding what that Gentle-
man has faid, the Right of the Crown to grant
Penfions indifcriminately, out of all Branches
of the Revenue, not exprefsly excepted, whe-
ther by common Law, or by general Terms,
R 2 ia
246 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
in the Preambles of the Statutes themfelves, is
a Queftion about which Gentlemen, of equal
Learning and Ability, have formed Judg-
ments diametrically oppofite to each other :
Some have decided in the Affirmative, fome
in the Negative : It follows, therefore, that
whether thefe Grants of the Crown are, or are
ijot legalj is uncertain ; and, I think, it is an
uncertainty under which we fhould not fit
down, in a fupine Indifference, and negligent
Content. Does it become that Part of the
Legiflature, which was conftituted as a Bar-
rier to the Liberties of the People, againft
Encroachments of the Prerogative, to fuffer
a Pradice, of fo much Moment to the Pub-
lic, to continue, while it remains doubtful,
whether, befides its pernicious Confequences,
it is not, radically, a Breach of our Conftituti-
on ? But how. Sir, is this great Queftion to
be authoritatively decided? Surely in the
Manner which the Conftitution has prefcrib-
ed ; and, what is this Manner, Sir, but a re-
gular Procefs in our Courts of Law, where
all Queftions of Right, from the leafl to the
greatefl:, are, and can only, be decided : It Is
true. Sir, that this Houfe can controul the
Power in Queftion, fuppofing it to be legal,
and we do not apply to a Court of Law to do
this
DayXI-I ]/^ffmrs of Ireland. 247
this for us, as has been infinuated under the
fccond Head j no. Sir, we apply to a Court
of Law, not to controul this Power, but con-
ftitutionally, and finally, to determine whe-
ther it exifts; this Determination, Sir, we are
not qualified to make, and, upon this, the
whole Matter fundamentally depends. Our
checking this Power, only when it produces
fecondary and collateral Evils, does not take
the Grievance at its Root. Are we. Sir, to
fuffer a Pra«ftice, that is thought to infringe
GUI Ccnili ution, becaufe we have a Power of
preventing fuch Mifchiefs as it might do, fup-
pofing it to be Conftitutional ? Let the Law,
which alone can, determine whether the
Pradlice in Queflion is legal 5 if this Determi-
nation is in the Affirmative, let us exert the
Power, inherent in us, to regulate and reftrain
it: Far be it from me to think of applying
to a Court of Law for this Purpofe ; but, if
the Determination is in the Negative, we fliall
fall by our own Hand, with all the Guilt and
Folly of Suicide, by fuffering this Pradice at
all. Under the third Head, Sir, the honour-
able Gentleman has expatiated, with great E-
loquence, on the Diftrefs, which will be
brought upon particular Perfons, by the Suit
propofed. As I fhould be very forry to reprefs
R 3 the
248 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
the Emotions of Pity in any Breaft, or be
thought not to feel them in my own, I mud
declare, that I think, on this Occafion, they
ought to be indulged, and that we ought
to adt wholly in Conformity to them, bui
then let our Pity be directed to its proper Ob
jed: : The Affairs of Mankind, in this imper*^
fe(^ and mixed State of Things, are fo cir
cumftanced, that our befl Wifdom, and mo
extenfive Benevolence, can only chufe the lea
of two Evils ; in the Cafe before us, we havi
the Penfioners on one Side, and the Natio
on the other. Can it be ferioufly afked
which {hould be preferred ? Can it be pre-
tended that we ought to incur a public Debt
that we can never pay ? that the Faces of the
Poor ought to be ground by new Taxes ? that
our Conftitution is to be infringed, and the
Privileges, which our Fore-fathers purchafed,
not only with their Treafure, but with their
Blood, are to be given away, rather than a
handfull of People fhall be deprived of Pen-
sions, to which the greateft Number of them
have no equitable Right, and which, there-
fore, they ought never to have had ? Our
Anceftors, Sir, voluntarily fuffered DiftrefTes,
at leaft equal to what thefe. Perfons will fuf-
fer^ to fee u re to us what we now feem (q
readj
Day XL] Affairs of Ireland. 249
ready to give up with a Cruelty to the many,
difguifed under the Mafk of Pity to a few,
merely to make our own Court, and pay a
Complement to minifterial ,Power. We have
been afked, what is to become of the hoary
Veteran, of the penlioned Lord, and the ho-
neft Aflignee ? I might reply, by another
Queftion, what is to become of the blamelefs,
but laborious Peafant, of the honefl: induftri-
ous Trader, and the ingenious Artificer,
whofe Welfare is the Welfare of the State ?
But I am under no Neceffity of reducing the
Debate to a Dilemma, for, though the Evils
of the Public, incurred in Favour of the Pen-
fions, would be irremediable, yet the Evils
incurred by the Penfioners (1 mean thofe
who ought to continue fo) in Favour of the
Public, are not without Remedy : Gentlemen
feem to forget, that the very Motion which
propofes the Suit that is complained of with
fuch Pathos of Compaflion, and oppofed with
fuch Ardour of Refentment, propofes al fo,
to eftablifh a fufficient Fund upon conftituti-
onal Principles, for the Pifplay of Royal
Bounty, and the Reward of indigent Merit.
I would not reply, too minutely, to all that the
the worthy Member has thrown out, in the
Torrent of his Eloquence ; I fliall not, there-
R 4 fore,
250 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
fore, obferve, that the Folly of thofe who lay
out all the Fruit of long and laborious Induf-
try, in the Purchafe of a Penfion, for the Life
of another, or for a Term that they may pof-
libly furvive, cannot but leffen our Pity for
their Diftrefs 5 nor is this, fimply. Folly, if
fuch Purchafers have a Family which depends
upon what they have been able to lay up for
their future Support j it is then a criminal Inat-
tention to thofe who have the ftrongeft and
tendered Claim to their Regard, and he that
negleds to provide for his own Houfe, by
flaking his whole Subftance on the Life of a-
nother, or the Expiration of a Term, is fure-
ly, as the Scriptures have exprelTed it, wo^-fe
than an Infidel. Upon the whole, Sir, I de-
clare myfelf a Friend both to Juftice and to
Mercy, and, in both Charaders, I fhall give
my Voice in Favour of the Motion.
Mr F- r— the A. G,
Mr S— ^,
I ftand up, Sir, to declare myfelf of the
fame Opinion with the honourable Gentle-
man, v/ho fpoke laft againft the Motion,
with Refpedt to the Power of the Crown, to
charge
Pay XL j^fairs of Ireland, 251
charge the Money brought into the Treafury
with Penfions arifing from the Words of the
Preambles of the Statutes, by which, the fe-
veral Duties were laid ; but I am farther of
Opinion, that the Crown has this Power,
with Refpect to Duties raifed by the
very Statutes, that declare them exprefsly
not chargeable with Penfions j for I am of
Opinion, that the barring Claufes, with Re-
fped: to the Hearth Money, and Ale Licences,
can alFedt them only before they are brought
into the Treafury, and that the Moment they
become Part of the Aggregate Fund, they are,
indifcriminately, a Supply for the Exigencies
of Government, and its fupport : I believe,
Sir, it was never known, that Orders were
iffued on one particular Duty, rather than a-
nother j or, that any Diftindion between the
feveral Duties was ever kept up j receiving
Money by Exchequer Tallies in Tranfience,
as it is called, that is, before it comes into the
Treafury, may, indeed, be of very bad Con-
fequence, by preventing the Affairs of the
Treafury from being properly conduced, and
a Sum fufficient for an Emergency, from
being kept always in it ; and for this Reafon,
and this alone, I apprehend the Claufe was
added, in fome particular Statutes, to bar the
Charge
252 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
Charge of Penfions, for when once the Duties
were paid in, they had relation to a particular
Adl no longer. The executive Power muft
be lodged fomewhere, and, if it is taken out
of the King's Hand, I do not know with
what other Part of the Legiilature, confiftent
with Law, and the Conftitution, it can be
trufted. The Difficulties and Difad vantages,
attending the Scheme propofed, have been fo
juilly enumerated, and fo forcibly urged, by
the learned Gentleman, who fpoke laft, a-
gainfl: the Motion, that I fhall fay nothing of
them J but I cannot help taking fome Notice
of what has been faid in Reply : Gentlemen
feem to think, that a very important Article,
in Favour of the Motion, has been unfairly
overlooked, and have in lifted much on the
Conftituticnal Fund, that has been offered
for the Payment of Penfions, in lieu of fuch
Revenues as are to be refcued from the har-
py Claws of miniflerial Power : Now, Sir, I
really think that the Appropriation of that
very Fund, exclufively to fuch a Purpofe, is
one of the many Evils of which this Motion
would be produdlive. It has beenjuflly ob-
ferved. Sir, that as the Affair flands at pre-
fent, this Houfe has a Power of reflraining
Penfions, not only, when they are exceflive,
but
Day XI.] j4ffat'rs of Ireland. 253
but when they are improperly applied, and,an
Inftance has been given of the Exertion of
this Power, with Refpedt to two Penfions in
the Year 1703. But if this boafted Fund
is eftabliflied, it muft be upon the Ruins of
this conftitutional and important Power ; this
Fund will be abfolutely a Privy Purfe, and
the Crown, or rather the Minifter, may difr
pofe of it as fhali beft fuit with the moft cor-
rupt and pernicious Views, without being
liable to be called to an Account by this
Houfe, which will no longer be a Check
upon this dangerous Part of his Power. It
will be a total Diminution of the Public Stock,
and an irrecoverable Alienation of public Pro-
perty. I muft alfo confirm what my ho-
nourable Friend has faid, about the Difficul-
ties and Delays of a Suit, carried on againft
the Crown ; it might eafily be proved, by
many Fadts j but, I remember, one in particu-
lar, which I fhall beg leave to relate. A
Perfon had a Demand upon the Government
for a very confiderable Sum of Money, which
it not being convenient immediately to pay,
he got a Grant of five and twenty thoufand
Pounds a Year, till his Debt (hould be dif-
charged ; but a Suit was commenced againft
him
254 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
him in Lord Chancellor Sojners's Time, to
prove that the Grant \ :s invalid ; this Suit
was determined in his Fa', our, and the Grant
confirmed, but an Appeal being lodged to the
Exchequer Chamber, the Decree was revtrfed,
and it never went further.
Here Mr F/Zx-G— got up, and faid, that
he muft beg his Pardon for that, the £rfl
Decree was confirmed in the Houle of Lords.
Mr P— T— the A. G. replied, he was
fure it muft be fo, if that learned Gentleman
affirmed it, but that he had never heard it
before, and he concluded his Speech by giv-
ing fome other Inftances of Expence and De-
lay attending Suits againft the Crown.
MrJ— H— H— , theP. S.
MrS ,
It is always with the greateft Reludance
that I differ from the honourable and very
learned Gentleman who m^ade the Motion,
and whom I have always confidered as a
fhining Ornament of his ProfefTion, and yet
I muft freely confefs, that the Motion is (o
extraordinary, that it furprizes me in the
great-
Day XI.] Affain of Ireland. 255
greateft Degree. I confefs, that I am not con-
vinced by nny Thing that has been faid by him,
or any other Gentleman on the fame Side of
the Queftion, of the Expediency of our hav-
ing recourfe to a Court, to determine whe-
ther the Sums that we have granted are legal-
ly applied ; I think, by this Meafure, we
fhall be both injured and degraded j we fhall
be degraded by fubmitting to an inferiour De-
cifion, and we fhall be injured, by lofmg our
undoubted Right of determining Queflions
of the fame Kind for Ourfelves. It has been
faid, Sir, thai the Court of Law can only
determine, whether the Crown can legally
grant Penfions out of our Revenue, and that
we do not apply to a Court of Law to know
what Penfions the Crown fhall grant, if it
can legally grant them. But, I am clearly of
Opinion, that this Houfe, whofe peculiar
Province it is to grant Supplies, and after-
wards to fee that they are properly laid out,
has a Right to determine what is and what is
net lawful, with Refped to thofe Supplies.
If we think the Crown ads illegally, in ap-
propriating the Supplies to the Payment of
Penfions, have we not a Power of cutting:
of^" thofe Supplies at the Root ? and can we
not infifl on Reformation, with Refped: to
what
256 Debates relative to the [Day XL
what has been done, as well as Conditions for
the future ? are we ignorant that there are
fuch Things as A(5ts of Refumption ? or that
fuch Ads were palTed, even in the Time of
our great Deliverer King William '? We have
been told of our Conftitutional Power, we
feem to know it, and we are flaewing a Spi-
rit that ought to ad: by the Exertion of it,
and yet, by fome ftrange Infatuation, we are
driven to take a moft unaccountable and
unprecedented Meafure, by which this Spi-
rit will be mifled, and this Power eventually
denied and renounced. But if the Meafure
propofed was not pernicious in itfelf, furely
it is ill-timed 5 the Attention, and good In-
clination of our amiable, humane, and noble-
minded Lord Lieutenant, have brought about
for this Country, what all our Refolutions,
expreffed in the flrongeft Terms, could not
do, I mean the Attention of his Majefty, to
this Grievance, as appears by his Letter; and
have we not the greateft Reafon to exped
fome Fruit from fo promifing a Bud ? If his
Excellency has been fo humane as to inform
his Majeily of our Complaint, while he is
3'et among us, with fo happy a Dawn of Suc-
cefs, what may we not exped from fo kind,
fo zealous, fo able an Advocate, when he re-
turns
Day XL] Affairs 0/ Ireland. 257
turns into the Royal Prelence ? And what
may we not exped: from fo amiable, fo gra-
cious, and fo illuftrious a Prince, whofe prin-
cipal Objed: is the Happinefs of his People ?
At this Time, furely, we have fufficient Caufe
rather to Hope than to Fear j rather to repofe
in the pleafing Profpeift before us, than to
flimulate each other to a Meafure in the
higheft Degree rafh, violent, and injurious ;
every Thing, furely, is better than a Law-fuit,
the Inconvenience, Confufion, and Diftrefs of
which muft be great, in proportion to the
greatnefs of the Grievance complained of,
which we have Reafon to hope will be re-
dreffed in another Way. The greater the
Number of Penlioners, and the greater the
Sums they receive, the more extenfive the
Diftrefs, and the more compHcated the Suit,
The Suit, indeed, will be a Jumble of all
Interefts, Clafles, and Charaders ; King,
Parliament, Penfioners, Judges, and Lawyers,
will all be in conteft together ; the Pen-
fioners alone will include all Countries, and
ClafTes ; and all their Families, Dependants,
and Creditors, with all the Families of fuch
Creditors, and Dependants, will be involved ;
and, at laft, what is all this Buflle, and Confu-
sion, and Diftrefs to do ? Why, it is to weaken
the
258 Debates relative to the [Day X!.
the Hands of the Crown, at a Time, when
they moft need to be ftrengthened ^ when the
Regal Authority, and all Commiffions under
it, are defpifed, and trampled upon ; when
the Law is fet at nought, and a Spirit of Con-
tumacy and Rebellion univerfally prevails j
when all Subordination and Reftraint is call
off, even in our Capital, where the public
Peace is perpetually difturbed by Licenciouf-
nefs and Riot, and Murder is ftaining the
Streets with Blood. At this Time, furely,
the Legiflative Powers fhould unite againft
the common Enemy, whom our Difcontcnts
and Divifions muft encourage and counte-
nance, and for all thefe Reafons, and many
others that have been urged, and fupported
by the honourable Gentlemen, who have
fpoken on the fame Side, I declare myfelf
ftrongly againft the Motion.
Mr £— 5— P— .
MrS^
I am forry to fay. Sir, that I have been
more mortified and aftoni(hed at what I have
heard, during this Debate, than I ever was
in my Life, particularly from the honourable
Gen-
t)AY XL] Affairs in Ireland. 2^9
Gentleman who fpoke lafl. We have, In the
feme Breath, been admoniflied againft ra(h
and violent Meafures, and urged to cut off
the whole Supply granted to the Crown, be-
caufe we think Part of it mifapplied 5 we
have heard a pompous Encomium on our
Dignity, and, at the fame Time, have been re-
prefented, as feeble and needy, as relying on
the Humanity of a Lord Lieutenant, and
being under the greatefl Obligations to his
Fityy for obtaining of his Majefty, by the
Power of his Interceffion, what we could not
by all our Efforts obtain for Ourfelves. Whe-
ther this would be proper Language if we
were foliciting a Favour may well be queftion-
ed, but it is fuch as I cannot hear without
Indignation, when we are pleading our Right.
If we have not effetfled that for ourfelves,
which we are now told we are likely to ob-
tain by the Compaffion of an Interceffor, and
the Partiality of our Sovereign, who has lifl-
ened to him, though he difregarded us, to what
is it owing ? Surely, to that Condud:, which
we are now urged to continue j to a tame Ac-
quiefcence in minifterial Promifes, and an
implicit Concurrence with minifterial Mea-
fures ; we have undoubtedly the Power of
doing ourfelves Right, and, our only jufl
S re-
26o Debates relative to the [Day XI.
reproach is, that we have not exerted it to
Effecfl ; if we have not, it is certainly Time we
fhould. Gentlemen who have recommend-
ed Gentlenefs, Patience, and Repofc in good
Profpedis, a placid Expectation of Fruit from
BlolToms that have already appeared, have
been very lavifh in their Encomiums on his
Majefty ; and, no Man, Sir, can think more
highly of his Majefty than I do, but, furely,
they might juftly be fufpecfted of conceaHng
the bitterefl Satire, under the Appearance of
Panegyric, when they tell us, that the Voice
of an injured People has been heard in vain ;
that all our Refolutions, as Reprefentatives of
the Commons of this Kingdom, made in the
moft folemn Manner, have not been able to
attract that Regard which has at once been
paid to an Inftrument of his own Power, in
the Perfon of our Lord Lieutenant j far be it
from me. Sir, to think thus of his Majefty ;
if our Refolutions have not been effe(ftual, it
is becaufe tPiey have not come properly be-
fore him J there is, therefore, greater Neceftity
for an Addrefs, and his Attention to the
Reprefentations of our worthy Lord Lieu-
tenant give us the moft reafonable Ground to-
hope that it will fuccced j what Reafon can
there be, Sir, not to ad; in Perfon, on an Oc-
calion
Day XI.] ^jfairs of Ireland. 261
caiion fo urgent and important, and what
ground is there to fear that the gracious Sove-
reign, who has heard another on our behalf,
will not hear us for Ourfelves ? But the Ob-
jeiftions that have been urged againft the Sub-
jedt of our Addrefs are not more extraodi-
nary than thofe againft the Addrefs itfelf.
Is it not a moft extraordinary Maxim, Sir,
" that every thing is better than a Law-fuit ?*'
Could the greateft Enemy of our Country give
it a worfe Character, than that every Thing is
better than a regular Appeal for the Decifion
of her Laws ? That it is better to fuffcr
every Evil that can be fuffered, than feek re-
drefs from the Remedy that our Legiflators
have provided ? Where is the Difference, Sir,
of being totally without Law, and having
Laws to which we cannot appeal, without
incurring a greater Evil than we can fufter
by the Breach of them ? It is, indeed, too
true, that in Law-fuits, there is Chicanery,De-
lay, and Expence 3 and, with thefe Evils, the
Gentleman muft neceffarily be well acquain-
ted ; but, God forbid, that thefe, or any other
Evils, arifing from the Abufe of the Law,
fhould be fo enormous as to render the Law
of no Effedl. But Chicane, and Delay, and
Expence, are not the only Mifchiefs, w^ are
S 2 alarmed
262 Debates relative to the [Day XI.
alarmed with ; we have been told, that a ju-
dicial Procefs is, not only fruitlefs, but cri-
minal j we have been told. Sir, that it is a
ra(h and violent Meafure to determine a
doubtful Queftion by Law j nay, ftranger
flill, we have been told, that it is rafh and
violent, not to commence Judges in our own
Caufe ; that it is rafli and violent, not to cut
off all Supplies, becaufe we believe fome to
have been mifapplied ! Surely, Sir, thefe
AfTertions and Inlinuations are aftonifliing in
the highefi: Degree, efpecially if we coniider
from whom they come. Thefe feem intend-
ed to fright us from our Duty, to fpread a
general Pannick, by difcovering a Glimpfe of
fome dreadful Evils, and then hiding them in
tremendous Obfcurity. Chaos is reprefented
as coming again, and we are alarmed with a
Confulion not lefs than that among the Ele-
ments of Nature before Creation ; all Interefts,
Claffes, and Charadters, are to be jumbled to-
getherj King, Parliament, Penfioners, Judg-
es, and Lawyers, with Families upon Families,
are to be involved in Doubt, Darknefs, and
Diftrefs ; this, indeed, is very dreadful j but
let us fee if with a very little Light, and a
very little Reafon, we cannot palliate the
Diflrefs, and diffipate both the Darknefs and
the
Day XL] ^ffai'rs of Ireland 263
the Doubt. To drop all Metaphor, and Fi-
gure, Sir, the Law-fuit propofed will not be
complicated in Proportion to the Number of
Penfioners, or the Diverfity of their Circum-
ftances, and Situation, aslias been infinuated ;
for the Queftion to be determined does not
refped; the Claims of thefe Penfioners, but the
Right of the Crown to difpofe, in a particular
Manner, of public Money j the Suit, Sir,
would have a fingle Objedl, if the Penfioners
were ever fomuch more numerous and diver-
lified than they are ; and may be commenced
by any Individual, with the fame Advantage
to the whole as if all were Parties. But ftill
other Bugbears have been held up before us ;
we have been told of Fadlion, and Riot, of
Contumacy, and of Murder ; and to be fure
fuch Monflers there are among us, but how
are they to be deftroyed ? The honourable
Gentleman feems to fuppofe, that an In-
fringement of the Law above, will contribute
to the keeping it facred below ; he fuppofes,
that if thofe who are intruded with the Rights
of the People fit quiet and filent, and fee
them taken away, that the People will be lefs
likely to attempt the righting of themfelves,
than if they faw the Struggle made in their
behalf, by that Power which was mofl lively
5 3 to
264 Debates relative to the [Day XI,
to fucceed ; he fuppofes, that the readieft Way
to quiet the Populace, is to flrip and ftarve
them, for the fake of Pampering an idle and
voluptuous Set of Mifcreants, on the other
Side of the Water, with French Cookery,
and French Cloaths. The only way, Sir, to
quell the Spirit of Difcontent, that is rifen a-
mong us, is to fee the Laws kept inviolate,
and to enforce them upon thofe of the high-
efl Rank, and the mofl ample Power ; to
fliew to our Country, and to the World, that
the Money raifed for public Purpofes is ufed
for the public Benefit j and that every Penny
that is paid in Taxes is laid out to procure
fuch National Advantages, of which all par-
ticipate, as are more than equivalent to any
Advantage that would accrue to the Indivi-
dual, by witholding his Contribution. Su-
bordination, Sir, is always beft preferved by
the apparent Attention of the Superior to the
Intereft of thofe below him ; Contumacy and
rebellious Oppofition to thofe in Power are
produced only by Opprciiion, or the Appear-
ance of it ; and, when all real Oppreffion is
at an end, the Appearance will foon vanifh ;
upon the whole. Sir, as the Penfions at pre-
kni are an Evil not lefs oppreffive than o-.
dioys, I am an Advocate for the Motion, upon
the
Day XI.] j^ffairs of Ireland. 265
the very Principles on which that honour-
able Gentleman has oppofed it, at leaft, till
fome other Meafure is fuggefted, that appears
more likely to produce the fame Effed-, or
to produce it in a more elegible Way.
The Queftion was then put, that the
Houfe do agree in the faid moved Addreis.
It pafled in the Negative by a fmall Ma-
jority.
WED-
266 Debales relative to the [Day XII,
W E D N E S D AY, INov, 9, 1763.
TWELFTH DAY.
MR M— C — moved, in the Committee
of Accounts, that the proper Officer
might lay before the Houfe, the Papers re-
lative to the Military Contingencies, which,
he thought in many Particulars, a very ex--
traordinary Charge.
On the Speaker's refuming the Chair ;
Mr £— *S — P — faid, that it v^^as allowed,
by every Perfon, who fpoke in the Debate of
Yefterday, that the extraordinary Encreafe
of Penfions, had laid a Burden upon the Na-
tion which it could not poffibly bear j and, as
the Continuation of them muft, therefore,
tend to fubvert the Conftitution, he thought
it his Duty to mention this to the Houfe, that
fome Method might be thought of to repre-
fent the Scnfe of the Houfe, in the humbleft
Manner to his Majefty, in hopes of redrefs ;
and, though the Mode that was propofed
Yefterday for making that Reprefentation,
was
Pay XII.] Affairs of Ireland. 267
was not generally approved, he made no
doubt but that another might be found that
would be fo -, and was confident that every
Member would concur in the Attempt ; he,
therefore, propofed to move that a Commit-
tee might be appointed to enquire what Me-
thod of Reprefentation would be moft pro-
per, and to draw up fuch Reprefentation
accordingly.
Mr P— T— , the A. G. faid, that he
thought an Enquiry into tlie Penlions very
proper, but that he could not agree with the
worthy Member who fpoke laft, with Re-
fpedt to the Form of his Motion ; becaufe he
was of Opinion, that a Committee {hould not
be named to draw up a Reprefentation to his
Majefty for Relief from Penlions as a Griev-
ance, till the Senfe of the Committee was re-
ported, whether they were a Grievance or
not ; he faid, when the Committee had en-
quired into the State of the Penfions, and
how far the Eftablifhment was able to bear
them, if they found that the Eftablifl:iment
was not able to bear them, and reported ac-
cordingly, it would then, and then only be
proper to addrefs his Majefty againfl encreaf-
ing them. He added, that for his Part he
could
268 Debates relative to the [Day XII.
could not fee fo great a Difference between
the State of the Revenue, and the Peniions, as
had been reprefented.
Mr P — replied, that he believed that the
honourable Member, v^ho fpoke laft, was the
only Gentleman in that Houfe, who had the
leafl Doubt, whether the exorbitant Encreafe
of Peniions was a Grievance ; and, as it leem-
ed to be the unanimous Opinion, even of
thofe that fpoke, and divided againft the
Queftion Yefterday, that they were a Griev-
ance, he begged leave to have his Motion put,
as he firft propofed it.
In this Mr T — acquiefced, and
Mr P-*- accordingly moved. That a Com-
mittee of the whole Houfe might take
into Confidcraticn, the State of the Penfions
upon the Civil E^ablifliment of this King-
dom, and how the Increafe of them might
be prevented.
Refolved, Nem. Con, That this Houfe will,
on Tuefilay next, refolve itfelf into a Com-
mittee of the whole Houfe for that Pur-
pofe.
Major
Day XII.] ^£atrs of Irelakd. 269
Major ff- — B — recommended an Encou-
ragement for the manufad:uriRg of Blubber
in the Barony of ImJIjoe^i, in the County of
Doftfiegal, where, he faid, feveral Whales had
been taken the laft Year, as the Nation had
fuifered great Lofs for want of knowing how
to extract what is called Train- Oil from the
Blubber, being obliged to fend the Blubber,
unmanufadlured, to England.
He alfo prefented a Petition of MefT. T^ho-
mas and Andrew Nejbit, Paul and James
Ben/on y Merchants, and Ache [on Irwme^ Efq;
praying Aid to enable them to carry on a
Whale Fifhery, on the North-Wefl Coart of
the Kingdom.
Upon Mr j — A — jun. prefenting a Pe-
tition in favour of a Bounty for ereding Corn-
Mills, it was propofed, that that Petition
fliould be referred to the fame Committee to
which the Petition of Mary Afiworth was
referred -, but Mr ,M— , who was Chairman
of that Committee, oppofed it, and faid, it
would be very hard upon him, if he fliould be
obliged to fit as Chairman upon all the Peti-
tions that fhould be brought into the Houfe,
not-
270 Debates relative to the [Day XII.
notwithftanding that they would lead to En-
quiries wholly diiferent from each other. He
added, that, having made up his Report, as
Chairman oi Ajlrjjorth\ Committee, he ap-
prehended he was difcharged from any other
Duty, with Refpedl to that Committee.
Sir 7? — C — got up, and faid, that, in his
Opinion, that Committees, to which Petiti-
ons of this Kind were referred, ought to con-
fift of Gentlemen, properly fele^ted, who had
made the Manufa(fture, to which the Petition
related, the particular Objed: of their Attenti-
tion : He faid, that the honourable Gentle-
man, who fpoke laft, might, perhaps, have
turned his Mind to the Operation of (lamping
Linnen, of which he might, therefore, be a
very able Judge ; but that he could fee no A-
nalogy between ffamping of Linnen, and Mills
and Mill- Stones, though others mighty and,
therefore, becaufe a Gentleman's Study, or
Inclination, inclined him to confider the Im-
plements ufed in a particular Ivlanufadure of
Cloth, he could fee no Reafon why he fhould
be obliged to fit, as Chairman, in a Commit-
tee, for the Examination of Mills and Mill-
Stones. Sir 7^-- — alfo propofed, that a
ftandino; Committee migjht be fixed for
Stamp-
Day XII.] Affairs of Irelat^b, 271
Stampers of Linnen, and all under that Clafs 5
and another for Mills, and all under that Clafs ;
and fo of other Articles of Trade and Manu-
fad:ure.
Dr C — L — then faid, that he much ap-
proved of public and large Committees to fit
in the Houfe, becaufe when Committees were
held in the Speaker's Chamber, he could not
help thinking that Jobbs were fometimes
carried on, and Premiums given, in a Way
that made them little better than occafional
Penfions.
The H— ble Mr 5- M__ alfo fpoke
much in Favour of public Committees, to fit
always in the Houfe, each of which fliould
take under Confideration all the Petitions that
came under one Clafs ; for, as to the Commit-
tees that fat in the Speaker's Chamber, he faid
he fcarce ever knew an Inflance in which
they did not report the Allegations of tlie Pe-
tition to be true, and the Petitioner worthy of
Encouragement.
Mr y— G— , the R- of D— , objeded to
thefe ftanding Committees, becaufe, he faid,
they would greatly retard the Bufinefs of the
Houfe, and could not, at lafl, give Time and
At-
lyl Debates relative to the [Day Xlf.
Attention enough to the Variety of Petitions
that mufl: necelTarily come before them, to
confider the Merits, with a Precifion and mi-
nutenefs fufficient to determine how far they
would, or would not, be of Utility to the
Public : He added, that, though he was far
from thinking that Mode of encouraging ufe-
ful Undertakings, a good one, yet, till a better
was found, and eftabliflied, he thought it
fhould be followed.
TheR-tH— ble H^ L—R—, faid, that
he was equally furprized, and forry, to find
that any Reflediions were cafi: on Committees
of Gentlemen of that Houfe, intruded to en-
quire into any Matter that came before them j
thac they were all Perfons of Honour and
Worth, and, he was perfuaded, would not,
for any private Gratification, lavifh away the
public Money : That, in a feparate Commit-
tee, appointed for each Petition that (hould
be received, the Subject of it would be exa-
mined and difcufTed by Gentlemen interefted
in the Encouragement, in a more minute and
particular Manner than could be done in fuch
general Committees as were propofed, and
that, upon their Report, the Houfe was the
ultimate Judge, whether fuch an Encourage-
ment was proper or not.
Day XIII.] y^Jliirs of Ireland, 273
THURSDAY, iVoi;. 10, 1763.
THIRTEENTH DAY.
MR R — L— made the following Mo-
_ tion : That an humble Addrefs be
prefented to his Excellency, the Lord Lieute-
nant, that he will be pleafed to reprefent to
his Majefty the Prayer of his moft faithful
Commons, in Parliament affembled, that he
will be gracioufly pleafed to give Orders to
his Attorney-General of this Kingdom, to
bring a Writ of Scire facias^ to enquire into
the Legality of the Patent, by which the Of-
fice of Chancellor of the Exchequer is now
held.
Mr i?— Fitz-G—.
MrS ,
I do not think it necefTary, Sir, to enter
into the Arguments that might be deduced
from the Ad: of the loth of Henry the
/Jlth, to prove, that the Grant of the Office
o ' Chancellor of the Exchequer, for Life, by
Patent, is illegal ; not only becaufe 1 take for
grant-
274 Debates relative to the [Day Xlll
granted, that a very nice Difquifition into thet
Meaning of that A61 will be made by others,
but becaufe, fuppofing this Employment to
be judicial, and, as fuch, prohibited from be-
ing granted for Life, by that Ad, I fhall,
neverthelefs, be forry to difpute the Grant, be-
caufe I have always underftood, that granting
judicial Employments for Life, or during
good Behaviour, is, in every Conftitution, a
moft defirable Thing. An Lidependance of
the Judges upon the Crown, is certainly the
moft likely to fecure an unbialTed and
unrertrained Determination, according to the
Laws of the Country j and, if we look into
Hillory, we fliall find, that this Principle is
not only fpecious in Theory, but eftablifhed
by Fadt : The Opinions of Judges who held
their Employments during the King's Plea-
fure, have, in Cafes where the King has had
an Intereft, been given in Favour of that In-
tereft to fecure their own j but where they
have been independant, their Determinations
have been in Favour of Right, without Re-
gard to the Views or Wiflies of regal, or ra-
ther of minillerial Power j befides, if thefe
Employments are held during Pleafure, and a
Miniller has any Point to carry, in which he
only doubts of Succefs, he has nothing to do
but
Day XIII.] y^jYiirs of Ireland. 27^
but to remove the Judge, and put a Creature
of his own in his Place, and the Bufinefs is
done. The Employments of Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and Mafter of the Rolls, are,
at prefent, conferred upon Gentlemen of the
greateft Ability, and fuch as have deferved
well of their Country. As to the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman, who is Chancellor of the
Exchequer, I muft be excufed from mention-
ing, particularly, his many amiable Qualities,
and great Endowments, becaufe he is prefent ;
but, as to the other Gentleman, the Mafter of
the Rolls, I cannot fay too much in his Fa-
vour. As a Statefman, his Abilities, Pe-
netration, and Steadinefs of Conducfl, deferve
the higheft Recompence; and, in private
Life, the warm, fincere, and perfevering
Friend, the free, open-hearted, and, I may
even fay, the jolly Companion, are univerfally
efteemed and beloved. Upon his late Arrival
here, every Body ftrove who fhould (hew
him the greateft Regard and AfFe(5tion j and
a Gentleman, of the lirft Confequence, not
being prefent to receive him in Perfon, ex-
prefled his Efteem and Kindnefs for him, in
the ftrongeft Terms, by Letter. Upon the
whole, I muft declare, freely, that, for my
own Part, I cannot fee any one good Purpofe
T th^t
276 Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
that an Enquiry into the Legality of thefe
Patents can anfwer, and, therefore, I declare
myfeif ftrongly againft the Motion.
Mr J— ikf— faid, that the Motion was
the moft extraordinary Meafure he had ever
known in his Life, and wholly new and un-
precedented. It was very flrange, he faid,
to addrefs the King to order his Servants to
fupport the Extenfion of his own Prerogative,
by invalidating his own Ad ; and flill flranger,
that it fhould be propofed by Gentlemen of
that Houfe, in dired Oppofition to their own
Intereft : He added, that it was very indiffer-
ent to him how the Ad: of the 10th of Henry
VII. iliould be conftrued, becaufe he never
could approve of the Ads procured to be
pafled by that Prince, or of his Minifter
Poi?iing*s Law, which he confidered, in every
Circumftance, as a Defed in the Conftitution.
He therefore moved, that the Motion fhould
be put off till the firfl of next Aiiguft,
MrX- 0—.
MrS ,
I fliall always be well pleafed to have an
Enquiry made into any Ad of the Crown,
which
Day XIII.] Affairs of Ireland. 277
which appears to be contrary to Law ; but,
as the Illegality of the Adt in Queftion is
doubtful, and as the Statute has been conftru-
ed in the Senfe in which his Majefty has ta-
ken it, I think there is no Occafion for fet-
ting on Foot an Enquiry, which, if carried
againft the Grant, will defeat his Majefty's
Intention, not to avail himfelf of his Preroga-
tive, in Cafes in which it is doubtful. I fhall
very readily allow, that Violations of Law,
like Violations of Truth, may have the worft
Eifeds, in a general and extenfive View,
though upon particular Occafions they may be
attended with Advantage ; but, in the prefent
Cafe, I think it is better to fuppofe that the
A(5t in Queftion, is lawful, and, upon that
Suppofition, to eftablifh it, than to commence
an Enquiry, which may terminate in its being
declared unlawful 5 becaufe, if that fhould be
the Cafe, it muil: be fet afide, which would
certainly be a Difadvantage to the Conftituti-
on, for, though we are not to fuppofe that
any bad Ufe will be made, during his Majef-
ty's Reign^ of a Power todifmifs Judicial Of-
ficers, in Confequence of their being appoint-
ed only during Pleafure, yet the Appointment
of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, for Life,
will, as a Precedent, have a very good Effed:.
T 2 As
278 Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
As to the A(5t of the loth of Henry VII. I
have always confidered it, as well as every o-
ther Tranfaaion of that Reign, to be extreme-
ly detrimental to the conftitutional Intereft of
this Kingdom, even in thofe Particulars in
which its ConftruNftion can admit of no Doubt,
and, therefore, we are, I ihin^L, felo-de-fe, by
twtry Attempt to extend it, where its Con-
ftrutflion is uncertain. Before the Reign of
He?iry the Vllth, the Englifi Statutes were
accepted and executed in Ireland^ by the Con-
fent of its Parliaments, and Government was
condu(5ted in a proper and conftitutional
Manner ; but, upon certain Difturbances
which rofe in this Country, Henry fent over
Sir "John Pohiings^ who was much more the
turbulent and violent Soldier, than the judici-
ous and fteady Politician, and he found Af-
fairs in fuch a Situation as induced him to
make Ufe of every Artifice, and exert every
Effort, to extend the Prerogative of the King,
at the Expence of the Rights of the People :
He convened Parliaments wherever he thought
proper, fometimes in the moft obfcure Part
of the Kingdom 5 and thefe Parliaments con-
fifted of Perfons chofen entirely by himfelf j
what Wonder, then is it that they enaded
whatever he diredted, and, in a great Degree,
de-
Day XL] Affairs of Ireland. ' 279
deftroyed their own conftitutional Power.
We had a recent Inftance of the bad EfFe6ls
of Toining'^ Adminiftration, in the Difpute
between the Privy Council here, and the Mi-
niftry on the other Side of the Water, lafl:
Year. It has, indeed, been faid, in this
Houfe, that Pw«/«^'sLaw is the Palladium of
the Conftitution, but, I wifh to God, that an
TJlyffes could be found to fteal it away ; and,
whenever the Crown fliall think fit to abridge
its own Prerogative, by adopting a Conflrud:i-
on of that Law, favourable to the Rights of
the People, I fhall moft joyfully acquiefce in
it, as I am fully perfuaded the Conftitutlon is
much more likely to fuffer, by extending the
Prerogative, than by contra<fling it, and that
much worfe Confequences may attend the
Grant of judicial Employments, during Plea-
fure, than for Life ; I fhall, therefore, give
my Voice for poftponing the Queftion till
the firft of next Augufi,
Mr E — M— went into the Enquiry,
whether the Grant of the Chancellorfliip of
the Exchequer for Life, was, or was not, ille-
gal, by the Statute of the i oth of Henry the
Vllth, Ch. II. The Claufe of the Statute is
Jhis :
T 3 ''N«
28o Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
*' No Perfon that fhall have Miniftration
" ofjuftice ; that is for to fay, the Chancel-
" lor, the Treafurer, Judges of the King's-
" Bench, and Common-Pleas ; the chief and
** fecondary Baron of the Exchequer, the
" Clerk, or Mafter of the Rolls, nor any
" Officer Accomptants, fhall have any Au^
** thority by Patent in their fuch Offices, but
" only at the King's Pleafure ; and if any
" Grant be made of any of the faid Offices,
*^ unto any Perfons, contrary to the Premifes,
*' they fliall be deemed void j and all Adls
^' before made to the contrary hereof, to be
" revoked and void.'*
Mr £— M—,
MrS ,
I think it manifeft, from all the Circum-
ftances of this Statute, that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer is precluded, according to the
Spirit of it, from holding his Employment
by Patent, for Life. It is known to have
been a judicial Employment, of great Impor-
tance, from the Time of King Jolm, down to
that of Henry the Vllth, and the Situation of
that Prince was fuch, when he fent Pomings
over.
DayXIII.J Affairs of Ik^la^T), 281
over, as made it neceflary for him to have the
Judges of all the Courts in his Power j and,
indeed, the chief Officers of State ; it is, there*,
fore, impoffible to fuppofe, that an Officer, fo
confiderable as the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, fhould not be intentionally included in
the Law in Queftion, though not exprefsly
named. Suppofe the Chancellor mentioned
in the Statute, to mean the Lord Chancellor,
yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer muft cer-
tainly be included in the Words *' No Perfon
** that fhall have the Miniftration of Juftice,"
-for, that he has [the Miniftration of Juftice,
cannot be doubted : There are but two of the
Barons of the Exchequer mentioned, " the
" chief and fecondary Baron," yet it has ne-
ver been pretended that the third Baron is not
included. It appears, indeed, by the com-
mon Ufage of the Crown, that this Officer
has been fuppofed to be included, for there is
not one Inftance of this Employment's having
been granted for Life, fince Poining'% Law,
except by Harry the Vlllth, and Charles the
Ift. whofe Condudl, in this Refpedl, will, by
no Means, furnifti a prefumptive Proof that
they thought the Grant lawful, for they were
known not to make the Law the Rule of
their Condud:, when it oppofed their Inclina-
T 4 tion?.
282 Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
tions, or cladied with their Notions of Prero-
gative : Belides, Sir, in my Opinion, the Law
itfelf is a good one, and, therefore, no Occafi^
on fhould be fought of eluding it ; becaufe,
if judicial Employments are granted for Life,
they muft frequently be held by Perfons
whom Age and Infirmities have rendered in-
capable of the Duty; in which Cafe, the Pro-
ceedings in the Court may be totally flopped,
and the Rights of the Subject precluded ; I
admit, however, that the Grant of fuch Em-
ployments, during good Behaviour, is a good
Medium between during Life, and during
Pleafure, and more eligible than either. Up-
on the whole, I conclude, that the Grant, as
it now ftands, is illegal, but I defire that I
may not be mifunderflood to have been in-
duced, in any Degree, to form this Opinion,
by a Difapprobation of the Gentleman who
fills the Office, whofe great Abilities I am e-
ver ready to acknowledge, of which the Place
and Affembly where I ftand, has been often
WitnefTes ; I am only forry that this Gentle-
man is not to continue among us, and fliould
heartily rejoice to fee the Truft properly at-
tended to and executed by fo able an Officer.
I declare, alfo, that I have no Objedtion to the
Adjournment of the Queftion till the firft of
Augujl
Day XIII.] yi fairs of Ireland. 283
Auguji J and, I think, the Commencement of
fuch a Suit as is propofed by the Motion to
be unneceiTary, becaufe, if the Grant is con-
fidered as a Grievance, there is an ealier Way
of redreffing it. Every Suitor that comes to
the Exchequer is obliged to pay Fees to the
Chancellor, from which Fees his Revenue ri-
fes, and every Suitor, therefore, has a Right
to commence a Suit againll: him for thefe Fees,
if he fuppofes he has not a legal Right to
them, which he has not, if the Grant cf his
Patent is illegal ; in the Courfe of fuch a Suit
the Legality of the Patent mult be judicially
determined. If there were" but one Hamp-
den in this Country, he would commence
fuch a Suit for the Value of a Shilling ;
I therefore give my Vote for poftponing the
jQueftion.
Sir 7^— C-
Mr S.
As I apprehend that the principal Argu-
ment againft the Legality of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer's Patent for Life is drawn
from the Meaning, either exprcfled or impli-
ed, of a Claufe in the Adl of the loth of
fienry VII. I think it proper to give my
Opi-
284 Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
Opinion of the Senfe of that Claufe. Hifto-
ry informs us, that, in the Reign of that Prince,
there were great civil Contefts for the regal
Power, between the Houfes of Lancajler and
Tork^ which extended to this Kingdom.
The two Parties were headed by Chiefs of
this Country ; the Torkijis by the Earl of
Kildarey and the hancaflriam by the Duke of
Ormond : Matters were carried fo far againft
Henry^ who was of the Houfe of Lancajiery
that his Rival was brought to this Capital, and
crowned at Chri/i-Church j at this Coronati-
on all the great Officers of State attended, a-
mong which were the Lord High Chancel-
lor, the Treafurer, and the Judges. Henry^
to put a Stop to thefe rebellious Proceedings,
and fecure his undoubted Right to the Throne,
fent over that very wife and brave Man, Sir
yoJm PoimngSy who would never have ventu-
red hither to oppofe the tumultuous and for-
midable Infurredions againft his Sovereign, if
he had not had Courage from the Sole of his
Foot to the Crown of his Head 5 and, in this
Situation, it was very natural for Poinifigs to
exert his Spirit, by every Method which his
Policy fuggefted, to ftrengthen the Hands ot
his Royal Mafter ; and, by his Diligence and
Perfeverance, the Ad of the loth of that
Prince
Day XIII.] Affairs (^/^ Ireland. 285
Prince was brought about, and the King ob-
tained a Power, eflentially necelTary at that
Time, of difplacing his great Officers, and
Judges at pleafure. Now, confidering the
State of the Exchequer at that Time, I can-
not think that the Chancellor was a Perfon of
fufficient Importance, to come within the
Intention of the Ad:, or the View with which
it was made. The Chancellor, mentioned in
it, is undoubtedly the Lord High Chancellor,
for he was the primary and chief Objedl of it -,
for Hiftory fays, that he affiled at the Coro-
nation of the Pretender of that Time, and he
is alfo mentioned in the A(5t, before the Lord
high Treafurer, which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could not have been -, I, there-
fore, conclude, that, as this Statute has not
altered the Law with Refped to this Office,
the King has an undoubted Right to grant it
for Life, a Conclufion which is juftified by
Precedents, which, I think, do not appear
to have been ever called in Queftion, either
by a parliamentary or judicial Enquiry.
Sir /T— O— .
Mr S ,
In the prefent Situation of this Country,
Sir,
286 Debates relative to the [Day XIII.
Sir, I think, our Time might be better em-
ployed than in the Difcuffion of Queftions,
doubtful in themfelves, and trifling in their
Confequences, except, that they tend to di-
vide thofe whom it is our higheft Intereft to
unite, and to produce Enmity where it is of
the greateft Importance to conciliate Affedi-
on. We exert all the Pathos of our Rheto-
ric, to difplay and deplore our Grievances, and
at the fame Time we irritate thofe who have
both the Power, and the Inclination to redrefs
them ; every Thing appears fpecious and
alluring, under the Colour of Patriotifm, and
Public Spirit, but there are many Meafures
which, if not viewed in the falfe Light,
which gives them this flattering Appearance,
v/ould be found deeply tinged with the ful-
len Hues of fadious Difcontent, difappointed
Ambition, and fordid Self-Intereft ; and the
bold rhetorical Flourifhes that feem to be
made only in Defence of our Rights and Li-
berties, will be often found to be nothing
more than the Effufions of perfonal Enmity,
or Party-Rage : The learned Member * who
fits beneath me, knows, that upon the Banks
* Dr L~.
of
Day XIII.] Affairs of Ireland. 287
of fome Rivers, in the Eaftern Parts of the
World, there are Fruits which have a moft
beautiful and alluring Appearance to the Eye,
but v^^hen brought to the Tafte are both pu-
trid and poifonous. It is at this Time the
univerfal Cry that the titular Power which
prefides over this Country, is Liberty j but
upon a nearer Approach, and more attentive
View, this fuppofed Goddefs will appear to
be a fliamelefs Strumpet, abandoned to every
Species of Licentioufnefs, and contaminated
with every corrupt Difpofition ; who wanders
about in borrowed Robes, diflurbing the
Peace, and debauching the Morals of Man-
kind, by ftudied Artifice, and deceitful Blan-
difhments ; and, is this aTime for us to foment
Divifion and Animofity by unneceffary Dif-
putes? fhall we countenance Dif-union, and
Difcontent by our Example ? and, fliall v/e
negledl our known Duty, and the real Service
of the State, to join in the popular Cry, and
pronjote Contumacy and Fa6lion, by conceal-
ing private Views, and felfifli Paffions, under
the fpecious Pretence of maintaining our
Rights, and preferving our Liberties ? Let
us rather ad: as one Body, animated by one
Soul, for an honefter and nobler Purpofe j let
us exert our whole united Strength, to re-
move
288 Debates relative to the [Day XI It.
move real Evils, and produce permanent
Good ; to reftore our Finances which are fall-
ing into ruin ; to check the fatal Encreafe of
Penfions j to fupprefs popular Licentioufnefsj
and to encreafe the Trade and Commerce of
the interior Parts of the Kingdom. Thefe
are Objed:s worthy the Attention of this
Houfe, and, in an adtive and fteady Purfuit of
thefe, we can alone difcharge our Truft, and
fecure the Interefl and Honour both of Our-
felves and Country ; we fliall, hovi^ever, in
this laudable Purfuit ftand in need of the Af-
fiftance of fuperior Powers, whom we fliould
incline to afford us this Affiftance, by every
becoming Compliance in trivial and doubtful
Matters, inftead of giving them Offence, and
alienating their Kindnefs by querulous Oppo-
fition, and unprovoked Malignity j from what
laudable Motive can Gentlemen oppofe the
Indcpendance of judicial Officers upon the
Crown ? How can cafual Inability be made
a Pretence for not granting an Office for Life,
when we know that the Incumbent, during
Pleafure, fcarce ever reiides ? It would be
cndlefs to trace the Folly and Danger of this
Conduft through every particular, and I am
willing to fatter myfelfthat it is unneceflary ;
for
Day XIII.] Affairs of Ireland, 289
for my own Part, I fhall moft heartily give
my Vote for putting off the Queftion to a
long Day, if it was only to employ the in-
termediate Time in Matters of real Impor*
tance.
Dr C — L — then got up, and dwelt much
upon the Importance of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's reliding, and paid many Com*
pliments to a Right Honourable Gentleman
then in the Houfe, who had formerly filled
that Office * ; this Gentleman, in a very gen-
teel Manner, begged the Dodtor to fpare him
as he was prefent 5 the Docftor, however, ftill
continued his Compliments, and, at the fame
Time, took occafion to throw out fome ob-
lique Hints not very favourable to fome of
the late Chief Governors.
A right honourable Member-f* then got up,
and faid fomewhat in Difapprobation of fuch
Hints, and, in the Courfe of his Speech, hap-
pened to mention the Weaver's Hall, by
which Company, as well as by moft others
* The right honourable Mr J — M—,
t The Right Honourable ^— H— /'— , Poft-
Mafter General.
in
290 Debates relative to the [Day XIIL
in the City of Dubli?:, Dr L — had been fin-
gularly diftinguifhed. The Doctor, confider-
ing the Mention of Weaver's Hall to be in-
tended as a Sneer, and not a Compliment,
got up, and fpoke to the following Effed: :
MrS ,
Sir, I fhall always remember, with the
greatelT: Gratitude, the fingular Honours I
have received from the honourable Society,
which that Right Honourable Member has jufl
now mentioned. The Weavers are a Com-
pany diftinguifhed by their Induftry, and, by
their fingular Utility to their Country ; the
Commodity which they manufacture is the
Staple of this Nation, and, to put us in mind
of its Importance, and of thofe that work it
up, it has the Honour to be the Seat of our
Judges in the Houfe of Lords. As, I think
thus honourably of the Weavers, I may,
without JLift Caufe of Offence, fay, that I be-
lieve it would have been well for the Right
Honourable Gentleman, if he had been bred
a Weaver himfelf ; he would then have en-
joyed that chearful and agreeable Difpofition
fo natural to him, with, perhaps, a greater
Gufto than he does at prefent 3 he would not
then have been incumbered with the Cares
of
I
Day XIII.] Affairs of iKY.LAi^Ti] 291
of State, but would conftantly have enjoyed
that Tranquillity and Flow of Spirits, which
are always the Confequence of little Thought,
and chearful Induftry. In the great Em-
ployment, which he fills at prefent, he has the
weighty Affairs of the Nation to think of,
and when he has thought of them, and given
his Concurrence to what may be neceffary to
difpatch them, he has the farther Trouble of
difperfing an Account of thefe public Con-
cerns, as well as the private Concerns of the
Nation over the whole World ; but had he
been happily a Weaver, he would have had
none of this Trouble, but have been a merry
Fellow, and, in the Stile of Sir Johfi Falftaff]
*' a Teller of all Manner of Tales, and a Singer
of all Manner of Songs."
The Motion was then made, and tho
Queflion put, that the further Confideration
of this Matter be adjourned to the firft Pay
of Augufi next.
Jt was carried in the Affirmative.
U FR I-
292 Debates relative to the [Day XIV.
FRIDAY, Nov. n, 1763.
FOURTEENTH DAY.
Mr L— 0—.
Mr S ,
THE firft and great Object of all Legif-
latures is the impartial Adminiftration
of Juftice ; Mankind were induced to make
a Surrender of their Power to injure others,
upon condition, that the Power of others to
injure them fhould be reftrained ; for, it was
very foon difcovered, that every Man is liable
to fufifer more by the unreftrained Power of
another exerted againfl him, than he can en-
joy by exerting his own Power, without re-
ftraint, againft another ; this was the Origin
of Civil Government, and, when, from this
Motive, this common Depofit of Power, was
made in the Hands of a Magiftrate, it could
be with no other View than that he lliould
exert it impartially for the common Benefit,
and, therefore, as far as a Magiftrate is under
any Influence with Refped to \\\& Decifions,
or
Day XIV.] j^Jairs of IkeLai^bI 293
or has any Thing to hope, or to fear, in Gon-
fequence of any Ad: performed in his judi-
cial Capacity, fo far, the very End of his In-
flitution is defeated, and fo far the Power in-
trufted with him, that it might operate only
to good Purpofes, may be perverted to Evil.
The Independance of Judges, therefore, is
one of the original and fundamental Rights
of Mankind, but, it is impoflible in the Na-
ture of Things, that a Judge fhould be Inde-
pendant, who holds his Office only during
the Pleafure of another ; he will then certain-
ly have fomething to hope and fomething to
fear, and his Duty may fometimes be incom-
patible with his Intereft ; when this happens,
it would be abfurd to fuppofe, that the Senfe
of Duty will always predominate ; to fup-
pofe the contrary, is only to fuppofe, that he
who becomes a Judge does not then ceafe to
be a Man, but, that he is ftill fubjed: to the
fame Paffions, and Infirmities, that he was
before, in common with all human Beings.
I will readily acknowledge, that there never
was a Time v/hen the Dependancy of Judges
was lefs likely to produce ill EfFedts, not, be-
caufe Judges have any new Powers to refift
Temptation, but, becaufe they are lefs likely
to be tempted : Our moft amiable and gra-
U 2 cious
2 94 Debates relative to the [Day XIV.
cious Sovereign feems to found his Happinefs
upon the true Principles of Virtue and Juftice,
and the Vice-Roy whom he has fent over
hither, feems, in every Refpedl, difpofed to
follow his Example, and to be truly his Re-
prefentative ; but from the Viciffitude natural
to every Thing fublunary, and from the Ex-
ample of our fifter Country, Great Britain, I
think it now proper to make a Motion, that
leave be given to bring in Heads of a Bill
for making the Commiffions of Judges, quam
diu fe bene gejjerinf,
Mr E — M— got up, and faid, that he
feconded the Motion, with very great Plea-
fure, as it would be a Confidence of Security
to the Nation, not with Refpedl to the pre-
fent Time but the future ; he added, that the
Support of Dignity, in the Judges, was alfo a
Matter of great Confequence, as it gave
V^eight to their Decrees, and Satisfaction to
the Suitors ; but more efpecially as it gave En-
couragement to Men of the firft Abilities, to
fill the Bench, who might otherwife find
greater Advantages in continuing at the Bar ;
he fliould, therefore, he faid, be very well
pleafed to have a Claufe tacked to the Bill for
the Encreafe of the Judges Salaries ^ this he
ob-
Day XIV.] Affairs of Ireland. 295
obferved, became neceflary upon a mere Sup-
pofition, that the Salary fixed, during the
Reign of King William^ in the Year 1699,
was only a reafonable Salary, and, that the
Judges now ought not to be worle provided
for, than they were then 3 becaufe, the Diffe-
rence between the Value of Money, and the
Expences of Life at that Time, and this, were
very great, as would appear by Fleetwood's
Chrofiicum Fretiofum^ and, therefore, though
the Appointment at that Time might be fuf-
ficient, it would at prefent fall very fhort ; for
which Reafon, he propofed, that the Increafe
of the Judges Salaries might be a Tack to the
Bill.
Mr L — O— faid, in reply, that he
fliould be much pleafed to have the Salaries
of the Judges increafed, and that he thought
it a very proper Meafure, but begged to be
excufed from making it a Tack, to his Bill, for
though there was the greateft Reafon to believe
it would be univerfally adopted, yet he was un-
willing to load his Bill with any Tack, what-
ever were the Chances in its Favour, becaufe
he conlidered it as of very great Moment to.
the Conftitution of his Country.
U 1 The
296 Debater relative to the [Day XIV.
The Queftion being pat, it was carried in
the Affirmative.
Ordered, That leave be given, to bring in
Heads of a Bill, for making the Commiflions
of Judges, quam diu fe beiie gejj'erinty and
that Mr L O ; Mr Af_j Mr P_ j
Mr Serjeant M — ; and, Dr Z/— , do pre-?
pare and bring in the fame.
SA-
Day XV.] Affain of Irelan d. 297
SATURDAY, ISIov. 12, 1763.
FIFTEENTH DAY.
MR E — S — P— got up, and faid, that
T^uejday next, was fixed for enquiring
into the Grievance univerfally felt, and com-
plained of, the Increafe of Penfions j but,
that, he apprehended, it would not be a pro-
per Day, as he had been informed, that many
Gentlemen would not be ready to attend, and,
as the Report of the Committee of Accounts
was that Day to be made, which would take
up fome Time ; he added, that he did not
blufh to fay, that he had received a Meflage,
which induced him to put off the Enquiry
concerning Penfions ; and, therefore, he mov-
ed, that it might be put off till Wednefday,
The Right Honourable A — Af— faid,
that he confidered the Enquiry, concerning
Penfions, as a Matter of the higheft Impor-
tance, that required much Time and Delibe-
ration, and a full Attendance of the Mem-
bers, and, therefore, he thought it fhould be
put off, even for a longer Day, as well upon
U 4 that
igS Debates relative td the [Day XV.
that Account, as, becaufe, the National Ac-
counts, and the Supply interfered, which
fhould not fufFer Delay, as the Money Bills
for the Supply fhould be fent off about the four
or five and twentieth of the Month, the ufual
Time, when the Duty would ceafe ; he faid,
that, upon the Report of the Committee of
Accounts, Debates might arife, and the paf-
fing them might, therefore, take up more
Time than was expected j he faid, alfo, that
the fixing the Supplies, and fending over the
Money Bills might be attended with Delay,
and, as it was of the greatefl Importance to
' have whatever related to that Bufinefs, fett-
led with proper Deliberation, it ought not
to be interrupted by any Thing of lefs Confe-
quence j he, therefore, wiihed that the Con-
fideration of the Penfions was deferred till
the Money Bills fhould be fent over.
Mr P— replied, that he was forry to dif-
fer from the Right Honourable Gentleman,
who fpoke laft, but that the very Arguments
he had ufed fur deferring the Confideration
of the Penfions to a longer Day, appeared to
him to prove that it {hould not be longer de-
ferred. How is it poffible, fays he, that an
Eftablifhment fhould be fixed, till we know of
what
Day XV.] Affairs of Ireland. 299
what it ought to confift ? TheEftablifhment of
Penfions is already enormous, and if we fhould
now fix it, without any Enquiry, or Refolu-
tion, the Meafure would be premature j for
certainly an Enquiry into fo efTential a Part of
the Eftablirhment, ought to take Place before
theEftablilhment is fixed j befides, fays he, the
very Inconvenience, which the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman wiflies to remedy, would
be encreafed by the Remedy he propofes j for
if fomething is not determined, concerning
Penfions, it will be a Subjedl of high Debate,
throughout the whole Committee of Sup-
plies ; he, therefore, hoped that he fhould be
€xcufed, in wiiliing to have Wednefday fixed
for the Penfions, and faid, that as the Duties
would not end till the Twenty-eighth of
the next Month, there would be Time e-
nough to tranfad the Bufinefs relative to them
without Precipitation, or Plurry.
The Order for the next Tuefday^ being
then read, it was refolved.
" That this Houfc will, next Wednefday,
" refolve itfelf into a Committee of the whole
*' Houfe, to take into Confideration, the
*[ State of the Penfions upon the Civil Efia-
" bliih-
300 Debates relative to the [Day XV.
*' blifhmeiit of this Kingdom, and how the
** Encreafe of them may be prevented."
Ordered, That the Agent to the Penfioners
do attend this Koufe next Wednefday,
Ordered, That the proper Officer do lay
before this Houfe, a Lift of the Names of
fuch Penfioners as do not refide in this King-
dom, and have Licenfes of Abfence from his
Majefty, or from the Lord Lieutenant, or
other Chief Governors, with the Dates of
fuch Licenfes.
Ordered, That the proper Officer do lay
before this Houfe, a Lift of the Names of
the Penfioners who do not refide in this
Kingdom.
Mr R — F— then got up, and faid, that
confidering the diftrefi^ed Situation of Ireland^
at that Time, it was a Matter of the higheft
Importance, to enquire into the extraordinary
Increafe of the Military Eftablifhment, be-
fore the Supplies were granted ; he faid,
that the Remark made by the honourable
Gentleman, who fpoke laft, two Days before,
had made a deep Impreffion upon his Mind ;
inftead
Day XV.] Affairs of Ireland. 301
inftead of thirty Regiments upon the Efta-
blifhment, fays he, there is now no lefs than
forty-two, with the fame Number of Men,
twelve Thoufand ; this is extreamly danger-
ous to the Conftitution two Ways, firft, by en-
creafing Dependants j and, fecondly, by en-
creafing Expence j the Expence has encreaf-
ed no lefs than 150,000/. a Year, fince the
Year 1757, which this Country is by no Means
able to bear 3 and this Eftablifliment, at
prefent, amounts to 100,000 /. a Year
more than in the Height of the War,
befides Military Contingencies, and Bar-
racks, which amount to a very conlidera-
ble Sum. He obferved, that the Military
and Civil Eftablifliment, with the Penfions,
would leave only 30,000/. out of the whole
Revenue of the Country, and that this Sum
and more would be fwallowed up by the Ar-
tillery, and Laboratory, which are not includ-
ed in the Military Eflablifhment, though cer-
tainly belonging to it, and Articles of very
great Expence. The Word Laboratory, he
faid, was quite new in the Houfe, and fcarce
a Man in it knew either its Meaning, or its
Ufe ; in his Opinion, it was a Place where
all Sorts of Combuftibles were prepared for
pire-(hips, Bombs, Grenadoes, and other Im-
ple-
302 Debates relative to the [Day XV«
plements of Offence, for the Sea Service, and
might, probably, run to an Expence of forty,
fifty, fixty, or even one hundred thoufand
Pounds a Year, and, why we fhould, in a Si-
tuation fo diflreffed as we were known to be
in, fet about making fuch expenlive Prepara-
tions for others, he faid, he could not tell, ef-
pecially in a Time of profound Peace, and
juft after the Conclulion of a War, which it
was to be hoped rendered another War high-
ly improbable, at leaft for fome Time. He
faid, the Ordnance already coft near 30,000 /.
a Year, and, that he was perfuaded, that if
this Inditution, and the Laboratory went on,
without controul, they would be much more
injurious to Ourfelves than to our Enemies.
He added, that the Staff of General Officers,
in Ireland^ amounted to two and twenty
thoufand Pounds a Year, though in England
it amounted to no more than Eleven, fo that
the Expence in that Article was juft double,
which, he faid, was furely furprizing, as in
this Town there was feldom General Officers
enough to make a Board. He concluded,
that if fome Regulation, with Refpe(5t to the
public Expences, in almoft every Branch, was
not made, there would not be the leaft Sup-
ply left for any Emergency, or for any Im-
prove-
Day XV.] Affairs of Ikel Ann. 303
provement, of which the Country flood in fo
much need.
Dr C — L — got up, and faid, that he was
extreamly forry to find himfelf under a Ne-
cefiity of making a Complaint againfl a very
refpedable Body, the Dublin Society, which
had been intrufted by the Houfe with no lefs
a Sum than 10,000/. to be diftributed in
Premiums : He faid they had fet out in a ve-
ry proper Manner, and, after a ftrid: Enquiry
into the Merits of feveral Claimants, they had
allotted to each fuch a Proportion of this
Bounty as they appeared to deferve ; that they
had, in Confequence of fuch an Enquiry, al-
lotted to a Family of the Name of Smith, the
Sum of 500 /. but that they, foon after, re-
ceived a Meflage from a certain great Perfon,
acquainting them, that, in that Perfon's Opi-
nion, 2,000 /. was little enough for that Fa-
mily, upon which they did, contrary to their
Judgment, and, in Breach of their Truft, grant
to that Family the full Sum of 2,000 /. no
lefs than four Times as much as they had de-
termined to be equal to their Merit ; and they
took the 1,50c/. which they had added to the
.500/. originally allotted to the Smiths of Wa-
terford^ Manufacturers of Tape, from the
Sums
^(§4 Debates relative to the [Day XVj
Sums allotted to other Perfons, whom they
had before judged to merit them, in equal
Proportions. He faid, alfo, that there were
two Glafs-Houfes in Dublin^ one of Irijh^
and one of Englijh Eftablilliment ; that Part
of the Irijlo one had, by Accident, been
burnt down, and the Materials for making
Glafs fo damaged, that, not being fit for fine
Ware, it had been made into Bottles, which
were of a good Fabrick, and fold for 1 8 j. a
Grofs ; but becaufe it was an Irijh Glafs-
Houfe, no Encouragement was given it by
the Society, who, at the fame Time, gave a
large Premium to an E?iglifi Glafs-Houfe,
which caufed a Monopoly, and raifed Bottles
to 20 J. a Grofs.
The H— ble S— M-— faid, that he was
prefent when the MefTage was brought to the
Society, requiring them to grant 1,500/. more
than they had, after a ftrid: and fair Exami-
nation, allotted to the Smiths^ and that he
propofed the MelTage fhould be entered on
their Books, as the Caufe of their granting,
fuch an Addition.
Mr J— M— confirmed what t)r L — had
faid concerning the Glafs-Houfes.
Upon
Day XV.] Affairs of Ireland. 305
Upon which it was ordered, that a Com-
mittee be appointed to enquire into the Dif-
pofal of 10,000 /. granted to the Dublin So-
ciety, to be, by them, diftributed among the
feveral Artificers, and others, who petitioned
the Houfe for parliamentary Encouragement,
the laft Seffions of Parliament -, and a Com-
mittee was appointed accordingly.
Mr £— S— P— faid, That he had made
a Motion, a few Days ago, that the Sums
which the Houfe fhould think proper to grant
for the Encouragement of Manufadories,
fhould be given in Premiums for the fuperior
Quantity, or Quality, of the Manufadure,
when it fliould be brought to Market, and
not to particular Manufafturers : That he
was perfuaded, from the general Difpofition
of the Houfe, that the Method he propofed
was more agreeable to it, than that againfl
which he had excepted, notwithftanding it
was rejed:ed, and that it was rejected merely
to avoid giving umbrage to the worthy Mem-
ber who had prefented the Petition, that gave
Occafion to his Propofal, which, he declared,
he made folely with a View to the publick
Good, and not from any Difrefpe<51:, or ill
Will,
306 Debates relative to the [DaV XV^
Will, to the worthy Gentleman, whom he
highly honoured. He now added, that the
Petitions which were every Day pouring into
the Houfe, were fo numerous, as greatly to
obftrudt its Bufinefs, and that the mere receiv-
ing them, though no Money fliould be grant-
ed upon them, would have a difadvantageous
Appearance to thofe on the other Side of the
Water, as being inconfiftent with the Poverty
of which they complained, and the Burthen-
fomenefs of various Demands, which they la-
boured to evade.
He therefore prayed, that the Houfe would
come to a Refolution, that no Money fliould
be granted by the Houfe, this Seflion, for the
Encouragement, or Support, of any particular
Trade or Manufad:ure whatfoever.
To this no Oppofition was made, except
that one Gentleman faid, he hoped it would
not be extended to injure any beneficial Un-
dertaking that had been begun fince the laft
Seflions, under the Sandion, and by the Aid
of Parliament ; for, if it appeared that the
Money already received had been honefllyand
judicioufly laid out, if would be great Pity
that the Undertaking (liould flop for want of
farther Aid. 5ome
Day XVL] Jfairs of Ireland. 307
Some Gentleman, upon this, propofed, that
the Motion might be amended ; however, it
pafTed in the very Manner that Mr P— pro-
pofed it, ISIemme Contradicente,
MONDAY, J^ov. 14, 1763.
SIXTEENTH DAY.
SI R W-^ O— reprefented, that, as all
Grants to Petitioners, for the Encourage-
ment of Manufa(5tories, had been precluded
by the Refolution of Saturday^ it was the
Duty of the Houfe to encourage Manufadu-
rers in general, by every other Way that
could be devifed ; that the Paper Manufac-
ture, in particular, ought to be encouraged, as
of great Importance to the Kingdom, and,
therefore, as particular Perfons concerned in
it could receive no pecuniary Encouragement,
he begged leave to move, that, for the Encou-
ragement of the Manufacturer, the Houfe
lliould come into a Refolution, that all the
Journals, Votes, and other Tranfadions of
that Houfe, fhould be printed upon I^aper
manufa6tured in this Kingdom.
X §ir
:>
o8 Debates relative to the [Day XVI.
Sir R C — feconded this Motion, and
faid, that the Paper Manufadure, being in its
Infant State, and of great Importance to the
Kingdom, it ought to receive every poffiblc
Encouragement.
Mr A— M-— .
MrS ,
There is no Man in this Houfe, Sir, more
ready to encourage the Manufacftures of this
Country than myfelf, as no Man can have a
fuller Conviction, that the Riches and Hap-
pinefs of the Country depend principally
upon them. Yet I fhould be forry to have
this Houfe come fo fuddenly to a Refolution,
which v^ould, in fome Degree, operate v^^ith
the Force of a Law, and which may alfo
give Jealoufy and Umbrage to Nations with
whom we have Connexions, and whofe
Good-will and Friendfhip we fhould do
every Thing in our Power to fecure j there
are alfo other ill Confequences to be appre-
hended from the Meafure propofed, which,
at leaft, make it advifeable, not to take it pre-
:ipitately : If we may Credit the Memorial
that
Day XVI. Affairs of Ireland. 309
that lies upon the Table, we ought rather to
encourage than difcourage the Importation of
Paper, becaufe we confume more than our
Manufacturers can fupply, and do not yet im-
port enough to make good the Deficiency,
which it is of great Moment for us to do.
Printing is a Manufacture, the Encreafe of
which neceflarily depends upon having Paper
of a good Kind, and at a reafonable Rate, and
there are confiderable Works of Printing now
carrying on j if, therefore, we produce a Scar^
city of Paper, by prohibiting its Importation,
we {hall raife its Price, and we fhall alfo debafe
its Quality ; for our Paper Makers will have
a Monopoly, and impofe upon the Stationer,
Printer, and Confumer, what Commodity
they think fit, and at what Price j however,^
as I am wholly ignorant of the State of our
Paper Manufad:ory, and fpeak only upon
Conjecfture, and the Credit of the Memorial,
I have mentioned to be lying before us, I wifh
a Committee might be appointed to en-
quire, how far our own Manufactory of Pa-
per can fupply the Confumption j if it can-
not fupply the Confumption, I do not fee
that this Motion is neceflary for its Encou-
ragement. It will not encourage the making
it by making a Market, for it has a fufficient
X z Mar-
3 lo Debates relative to the [Day XVI.
Market already ; it will not encourage the
making it better^ for when it is confumed in
confequence of an Order, and not by Prefer-
ence, the Manufadurer, will, be lefs felici-
tous to recommend it by its Quality, and gain
it the Preference, than when the Sale depends
upon fuch Preference. I hope, therefore, that
the Gentleman will withdraw his Motion, and
that a Motion will be made for the Appoint-
ment of a Committee, to make fuch Enqui-
ries as may be previouHy neceffary to direft
our Determinations.
Sir/^'— O— .
Mr S ,
Whatever Deference I pay to the Judgment
of the learned Gentleman, who fpoke laft, I
muft be excufed from withdrawing my Mo-
tion 5 as Committees have been frequently
appointed, lince the Year 1749, for the very
Enquiry he mentions, concerning the State
of our Paper Manufa<5lory, and frequent Re-
ports made, and Premiums given for its En-
couragement, I think its Progrefs and prefent
State muft be fufficieiitly known ; however,
lam
Day XVI.] Affairs o/'Ireland. 3 1 1
I am commiffioned to afTure the Houfe, that
the Manufactory of Cork alone would fur-
nifli this City with forty thoufand Rheams a
Year, and, that there are, at leaft, twenty
other Manufaiflories, which, if they had pro-
per Encouragement, would be able to fupply
the whole home Confumption, and, where fo
many Mills are conftantly at Work, I fee no
danger of a Monopoly j there will be a fuffi-
cient Rivalry among them to keep Paper at a
reafonable Price, and to furnifh a good Com-
modity. Belides, I do not fee how the
Meafure, propofed by the Motion, can leiTen
the Importation of foreign Paper any other-
wife than by tending to gain the Preference
for our own Paper, both with Refpe6t to
Quality and Price, by encouraging the Ma-
kers to perfevere in the Exertion of their Di-
ligence, and their Skill. Is a pretended Re-
gard to Foreigners, or a Fear of giving them
Umbrage, to prevent our endeavouring to
eftablifh Manufadlures of our own upon fuch
Principles, and by fuch Means as thcfe P If
the Price of our own Paper is unreafonably
raifed, and the Quality rendered worfe by
this Motion, it will rather encourage than
prevent the Importation of the Commodity ;
for what fhould hinder the Stationer, Printer,
X 3 and
^ 1 5 t)ebates relative to the [Day XVI,
and Confumer, from ufing fuch Paper as de-
ferves the Preference, whether with Refped:
to Quality, or Price, fuppofing the Meafure
propofed by the Motion to take Place ? And
how, Sir, can this Meafure tend to make
Paper fcarce ? Will more Paper be ufed by
this Houfe than was ufed before ? If we
propofed to make an Order, that for every
Sheet we ufed we fhould burn another, under
a Notion of encouraging the Manufacture, by
cncreafing the Confumption, then it might
be objected, that we fhould make Paper
fcarce ; but, we propofe no fuch Thing, we
only propofe that the Quantity of Paper we
have been ufed to confume, fhall, for the
future, be fupplied by our ownManufa6tures;
and, furely, there is nothing in this that can
hurt any other Manufadture of our own, or
juftly give Offence to any other Country, as
an Injury to theirs. What Encouragement
the Paper Manufadure may receive from the
Motion it is not neceffary to enquire, for it
is not oppofed, upon Pretence that it will give
no Encouragement, but the contrary, that it
will give too much. I have already fliewn
that this Pretence is groundleis, and, I fhall
now fliew, that fuch Encouragement as it
can give to that Manufactory, the Manufac-
tory
Day XVI.] Affairs of Ireland. 313
tory ought to have : It is a Manufadlure of
great Importance in itfelf, and it is alfo of
great Importance as a Branch, though a rer-
mote one, of the Linnen Manufa^flure ; Paper
is a Commodity fabricated from Materials,
which would otherwife be of no value, and
it employs a great Number of Perfons, who,
from their Situation, and Circumftances, could
be employed in no other Way than the col-
leding fuch Materials together. That the
Meafure propofed would operate with the
Force of a Law, prohibiting the Importation
of Paper, 1 have (hewn already to be a mere
groundlefs Pretence : You, Sir, (addreiling
himfelf to the Speaker) and this Houfe have
a Power of ordering the public Proceedings
of Parliament to be printed in what Manner,
and upon what Materials you think fit, but
your Order cannot extend further, and, there-
fore, for any Thing yet offered, I muft hum-
bly beg leave to be excufed from withdraw-
ing my Motion.
Lord B — got up, and faid, that he had
po Objetftion to any Motion that could pro-
duce fo falutary a Purpofe as the Encourage-
ment of a ufeful and confiderable Manufac-
tory y but that to prevent all Appearance of
X 4 Rival-
J5I4 Debates relative to the [Day XVI.
Rivalihip, and render the Meafure agreeable
to every Body, he propofed to make an A-
mendment, and that Paper of Britifi Ma-
nufadture ihould be included in the Motion.
Sir i?— C— .
MrS^
I hope, Sir, I fhall be excufed, for making
a flight Obfervation, on what has been faid,
by the honourable and learned Gentleman
who fits on the oppofite Bench j it has been
infinuated by that Gentleman, that the Dif-
couragement of Foreign Manufactures, by the
Encouragement of our own, ma,y give Um-
brage to Countries, with which we are con-
neded j but, if the pleafing our Allies is to
interfere with the Execution of a Meafure,
which, we think for our own interior Ad-
vantage, we fhall be in a State moft deplor-
ably dependant and confined, and become
the Servant of Servants, in the moft mortify-
ing Senfe of the Words. As to the Amend-
ttient in favour of Britifh Paper, I am afraid
it would be attended with very great Incon-
veniencies, and, in a great Meafure, defeat the
Intention of the Motion, for it would be very
eafy
Day XVL] Jfairs of Ireland. 31^
eafy for the Eiiglifi Factors, in league with
the Fadors here, to pour in, by the Way of
EfJgland, a vaft Quantity of Paper made by
the Dutch', is there not every Day a vaft
Quantity of French Silk obtruded upon us,
as the Manufadure of England f Is this Griev-
ance fo foon forgotten ? Every body knows
that the Fadors make up the Cockett, and,
that the Land-waiter very frequently knows
nothing of the Matter, though he is obhged
to the contrary by his Duty, and, as we have
no DupHcate for Paper, there being no Ad: of
Parliament for that Purpofe, and it being
made of Rags, that are picked up in the
Streets, it will be impoffible for the Printer
ito fwear whether the Paper he ufca is Britijh
Manufacture, or Foreign, as there is no poffi-
bility for him to afcertain it. Indeed, I am
averfe to the Ericreafe of Oaths, fyr, as far as
1 have been able to obferve, they do little
more than increafe Perjury. Let me add,
that the Britijh Manufadory of Paper is not
fufficient to fupply the Confumption of that
Country, and that Ireland gets fcarce any
from thence, for, upon infpeding the Cuf-
tom-Houfe Books, I find, large Importati-
ons of Paper from Holland, but little or
pone from Great Britain - I, therefore, chufe
to
^l6 Debates relative to the [Day XVf.
to have the Queftion put, without the A-
mendment.
It was, however, agreed, that the Queftion
fhould be put with the Amendment, and
then Mr H—S^ faid, That though he fliould
have objected againfl it, as firft propdfed, yet
he was now ready to give his Vote for it.
Mr P— r— , the A. G. faid, tliat he
could never vote for any Motion fo precipi-
tately put, fo late in the Day, and fo unex-
pected by the Houfe ; he faid, too, that a
Refolution of the Houfe would influence
many, though it would not bind them j that
the Houfe was but one Part of the Legifla-
ture, and had no right to do what would
bind even a nngle Perfon ; that Gentlemen
who had coniidered the Motion maturely in
their Clofets, might be Mafters of it, and
that other Gentlemen had an undoubted
Right to a competent Time for confidering
it, that they might be upon equal Terms with
thofe who had confidered it already, and that
he thought no Method fo fit for this Purpofe
as the Appointment of a Committee ; but,
that as it was Infifled, that the Queftion
Ihould be put, he muft beg leave to put the
previous
Day XVI.] Affairs of iRvXA'an. 317
previous Queftion, whether it fhould be put
or not.
The Motion was as follows : " That from
and after the firfl: Day of December next, all
the Votes and Journals of this Houfe, Public
Accounts, Acfts of Parliament, and other
Matters to be printed by Order of this Houfe,
or for the Public Ufe, fhall be printed on the
beft Sort of Paper manufadiured in Great-
Britaifi^ or in this Kingdom j and that no
Charge for Paper to be made ufe of, after the
faid firfl Day oi December^ fhall be allowed in
the National Accounts, or paid by the Public,
without an Affidavit made before a Magi-
ilrate, by the Perfon claiming Payment, that
the Paper fo charged is the Manufa(fture of
Great-Britain, or of this Kingdom, or was
bought from a Manufadlurer of Paper as the
Manufadture of Great-Britain, or Ireland^
excepting the Statues now printing under the
Diredlion of the Judges."
And the previous Queflion being put, that
that Queftion be now put.
It pafTed in the Negative.
TUBS-
3i8 Debates relative to the [Day XVII.
TUESDAY, Nov, 15, 1763.
SEVENTEENTH DAY.
MAJOR W— B — made a favourable
_ Report from the Committee appoint-
ed to take the Whale Fiihery into Confide-
ration, and it was ordered to be referred to
the Committee of Supplies.
A Report was made from a Committee,
appointed to confider of Repairs, that were
wanting to St Catheri7je's Church, and a Mo-
tion was made that this Report fliould be re-
ferred to the Committee of Supplies. This
Motion was oppofed, and it was urged, that
the PariQioners were able to repair their
Church at their own Expence.
Mr R- F-.
Mr S-
I have great Reafon to think. Sir, that the
Parifliioncrs are not able to repair their
Church at their own Expence, and, I think,
that
Day XVII.] ^Jairs of JRELAi^D. 319
that nothing can be more worthy the At'
tention of Parliament, than the keeping the
Places of Worfhip in the Metropolis in de-
cent Repair. External Appearances have a
great Effe(ft upon the Mind, which cannot
without the utmoft Difficulty be abftradeci
from fenfible Objedls, or confider the wor-
fhip of God as wholly diftindt from the Cir-
cumflances in which it is performed j we
fhould, therefore, avail ourfelves of AfTociati-
ens of Ideas, which we cannot break, and
contrive that the Worfhip of God fhould bq
performed in fuch Circumftances as will mofl
concur to put the Mind in a proper Frame
for it, and, confequently, give it a more ef-
fe(flual Influence. A ferious Senfe of Reli-
gion, and a confcientious Performance of its
Duties, will difpofe the common People to
be good Neighbours, and good Subjedls, and
greatly tend to quell a contumacious and tur-
bulent Spirit, which has of late fo much in-
terrupted the Public quiet, and, in fome De-
gree defeated the Purpofes of Civil Govern-
ment.
The Queflion being then put, whether the
Report fhould be referred, it was carried in
the Affirmative 76 againfl 60.
320 Debates relative to the [Day XVII.
The Committee appointed to confider the
Petition of the Minifter and Church- wardens
of St Andreivs reported, that it was neceilliry
to enlarge the Burial Ground of that PariOi j
this Refolution of the Committee was ftrong-
ly oppofed by Dr L— , who demonftrated,
that the Effluvia of corrupting Bodies,
thrown together in great Numbers, but juft
below the Surface of the Earth, in populous
Cities, could not but produce very pernicious
Confequences. He obferved, that the Pracr
tice of thus burying the Dead was contrary
to that of all Antiquity, and of moft of the
great Cities in Europe, to none of which it
could be more pernicious than to Dubli?i^ as
the Streets were very clofely built.
The Refolution was, upon Motion, recom-
mitted.
4
WED-
Day XVIII.] u4ffairs of Ireland, 321
WEDNESDAY, Nov. 16, 1763.
EIGHTEENTH DAY.
THIS being the Day appointed for con-
fidering the State of the Penfions,
and how the Encreafe of them might be pre-
^nted.
Mr £— *S — P — moved, that the Houfe
{hould proceed upon the Bufinefs of the
Day.
Mr y- D
MrS-
No Man in this Houfe, Sir, is more fen-
fible of the many Difad vantages that arife from
the Encreafe of Penfions, as they are now grant-
ed, than myfelf ; and an Enquiry into the State
of this Grievance, and the Means of redref-
fing it, is certainly a very fit Objed: of the
Attention of this Houfe ; but I cannot think,
Sir, that fuch an Enquiry is neceflary at this
Time, becaufe we have the greatefl Reafon
t0
3^2 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII,'
to believe that ail tlie Advantages which
could be expected from it will be obtained
without it. I m«ft again mention the Af-
liirance by which his Majefty has been gra-
cioufiy pleafed lb anticipate Our Wiflies. He
has allured us, that no Penfion for Life, or
Years, fl:iall be granted for the future, except
on extraordinary Occafions j and thefe are
the Penfions, Sir, at which we have mofl
Reafon to be alarmed ; they are permanent ;
they are transfcrrable ; and they are not fub-
jed to difquaUfying Laws : Gentlemen, in-
deed, have faid, that every Occafion, which
a Minifter fliall pretend to be extraordinary,
will be fufficient to evade the Promife j and
that he will have nothing more to do, when
he is inclined to grant a new Penfion for Life,
or Years, than to fay, that there is an extra-
ordinary Occafion for it. But, Minifters, Sir,
however corrupt, very feldom venture upon
a bad Meafure, which they cannot veil, with
a Pretence that is at leaft fpeclous, and will
at the firft Glance give it the Appearance of
Good ; that very Attention to their own In-
tereft, which frequently leads them to betray
the Interefb to the Publick mufi: neccflarily
rcftrain them from open and flagitious In-
fults upon the Reafon as welt as the Rights
of
Pay XVIIL] Affairs of Ireland. 323
of Mankind, and can any Gentleman prefent
believe, that a Minifter who has a defire to
reward his Pander, or his Borough Jobber,
with a Penfion for Life, or Years, will have
the Effrontery, or the Rafhnefs, to pretend that
a Grant of fuch Penfion is upon an extraor-
dinary Occafion, and, therefore, excepted in
his Sovereign's Promife to his People ^ Let
us, at leaft. Sir, give the AlTurance we have re-
ceived a temporary Credit, and fufpend our
Proceedings till the next Seffions, when, if
we fee fufiicient Reafon to diftrufl: it, we
may take the very Meafure that is now pro-
pofed, with more Juftice, and a better Grace.
At prefent, it is manifeftly premature, and
wholly repugnant to the Confidence that we
ought to place in his Majefty's Declaration. I,
therefore, humbly move, that this Queftjoft
may be poft-poned till the firft Day of nexf
>/^.
Mr E- S- P— .
MrS ,
1 remember. Sir, and fo I am fare does
every Gentleman prefent, that when the Mo-
tion for determining the Right of granting
Penfions by a Trial at Law was rejected, it
324 Debates relatroeto the [Day XVIII,
was the unanimous Opinion of this Houfe,
that Penfions were fuch a Grievance, as a
Committee ought to be appointed to enquire
into, and confider how to redrefs j and that
the Houfe did, accordingly, come to an una-
nimous Refolution, to refolve itfelf into a
Committee for that Purpofe on the next Ttief-
day : But, as other indifpenfible Bufinefs
took up great Part of that Day, it was made
another unanimous Refolution of the Houfe,
that the Confideration of the State of the
Penfions, and how to prevent their Encreafe,
iliould be undertaken this Day. But, I am
forry to fay, that, notwithflanding thefe Re-
folutions, I have but too much Reafon to
beHeve the Sitting; of fuch a Committee was
never intended j and I think it my Duty to
communicate fuch Reafon of my BeUef to the
Houfe. As I' was coming lall: M&?iJay from
the four Courts, in my Chair, I was flopped
by a particular Friend, a Gentleman of great
Worth and Confcquence, who ailced me,
whether I intended to go that Day to the
Houfe. I anfwered, that I did not, as I
kneW of: nothing that n?ade my attendance
necefiary, and that, as I had been mach-fji-
tigued by the Bufinefs of the Houfe, and of
the Courts, I intendsd tamake that a Day of
Refl :
Day XVIII.] Affairs in Ireland.' 325
Rell: : He replied, '* You may not only take
your Reft this Day, but every other Day
of the Seffions, for Things are now fixed
fo as to admit of no Alteration j no Enquiry
will be made into the State of the Penfions,
nor any Thing elfe done but what has been
agreed upon with thofe who are to take
the lead." To this I anfwered, with great
furprize, that I could fcarce think what he
told me was poffible. That the Houfe had
been unanimous for an Examination, and had
actually appointed a Committee for that Pui«
pofe, but a few Days ago j that the Public
expeded it, and that to difappoint them in an
Expedlation fo reafonable, and on an Occafion
fo important, would be wholly inconfiftent
with the Dignity, as well as with the Duty
of the Houfe, as the Members would then
appear to be nothing more than State Pup-
pets, with Wires in their Nofes, by which
they were turned firft one Way, and then a-
nother, juft as thofe who had the Manage*
ment of them thought fit.
Mr P — was here interrupted, by Mr P— »
IT—, the A. G.
Y 2. y\x
326 Dehdtes relathe to the [Day XVIII.
Mrr .
MrS— ,
Whatever private Converfation, Sir, the
Gentleman, who fpoke laft, might have with
his Friend, it is furely improper to introduce
it into this Houfe ; and it is ftill more impro-
per that Infinuations, fo injurious to its Mem-
bers, (hould be fuppofed to have any Weight
in it. I hope every Gentleman in this Houfe
feels a proper Difdain at being reprefented as a
Puppet, moved by the Did:ates of another's
Will, and fufficient Spirit to (hew, by his Con-
duct, that he a(5ts upon Principles of Freedom,
and Independance, in confequence of his own
Principles, and by the Determination of his
own Judgment : As to the Enquiry, in Quef-
tion, I Ihali, for my own Part, oppofe it, from
a full Convidlion, that it is unneceflary j what
could we hope more from this very Enquiry
than an Alfurance from his Majefty, that he
has con/idered the Grievance, and will redrefs
it r and this Afiurance he has been gracioully
pleafed to give us already. It is, indeed, true
that this AfTurance has not come before the
Houfe, with the Solemnity of a formal Mef-
Dav XVIII.] uiffairsofl-R-ELA^D 327
fage, but Gentlemen feem to forget that his
Majelty could not communicate it in that
Manner, coniiftent with his Charadier, and
Dignity. The Intimation to the Lord Lieute-
nant is a Favour, and, if his Majefty is graci-^
oufly pleafed to wave his Prerogative in our
behalf, are we to expecft that he fliould do
it in a Way that would imply a Confcioufnefs
of his having abufed it. His Majefty has, in
this Inftance, treated us with a Condefcenlion
and Kindnefs, of which, I may venture to
fay, we have no Precedent ^ and fhall we re-
turn it with Remonffcrance, and Complaint ?
Shall we refufe a Favour from our gracious
Prince, merely becaufe it is not offered in a
Manner that would degrade himfelf ? I re-
member, indeed, fomeGentlemen aiked, with
a contemptuous Sneer, what this Houfe had
to do with a private Converfation, at the Caf-
tle J but, furely, I may now recriminate, and
afk, what has this Houfe to do with a private
Converfation in the Street. I had, certainly, a
better Right to relate what I had heard, from
the Lord Lieutenant, with a View to calm
Animofities, and conciliate Affecftion, than
the honourable Member, on the Bench near
me, had to retail the Impertinencies of a
bufy Pratler, who took upon him to foretell
Y 3 the
328 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII.
the Condud; of this Houfe, and impute it to
diflionourable Motives^ which could tend only
to excite Dilcontent, and DilafFedion, at a
Time when Peace and Unanimity were efTen-
tially necelTary, not only to our Profperity,
but our Exigence. Upon the whole. Sir,
I iliall, from the clearefl Convidion, and with
the moll public and difinterefl:ed Intention,
give my Voice for poftponing the Enquiry till
the firfl of July.
Mr £— S- P-.
Mr S ,
i am forry to fay, Sir, that the honourable
Gentlemen, who is juft fet down, would not
have borne fo hard upon me, whatever he
might have done upon my Friend, if he had
not miftaken my meaning ; he has, in the
l^recipitancy of his Zeal, fuppofed that I re-
prefented the Members of this Houfe as
Puppets, aduated by a concealed Power ; but,
Sir, he will be convinced that I faid juft contra-
ry : I faid, I could not believe what my Friend
told me to be a Fad, and my Reafon was,
that if it had been a Fad, the Members of the
Houfe would appear to be Puppets 3 but, as
I did net believe the Fad, neither did I be-
lieve
Day XVIII.] j4ffairs of Ireland. 329
lieve the Members of the Houfe to be Pup-
pets, or to appear to be fuch ; now, Sir,
whether the Fa6t related, by my Friend, was
or was not true, I fliall leave the honourable
Gentleman to determine, and, if it was true,
I fhall alfo leave him to reconcile it to the
Wifdom, Steadinefs, and Confiftency, that
ought to diftinguifli fo confiderable a Branch
of the Legiflature, as he can.
Mr /T— B-,
Mr S ,
Give me leave to fay, Sir, that at prefcnt
this Houfe is as free from any Imputation of
Diflionour, arifing from what the Gentleman
who fpoke laft, let drop to his Friend, as a
new-born Child would be from a Declara-
tion, that if he fliould ever invade the Pro-
perty of another? he would be a Thief J we
have as yet been guilty of no Inconfiftency,
and, like my honourable Friend, I cannot be-
lieve, that we fhall : But, in what light
fhall we ftand, if the following Fadls fhould
be alledged againft us.
" On Wednefday^ the Ninth of November ^
We agreed that the Penfions, charged on the
Y 4 Civil
33^ Debates relative to the [Day XVIT}*
Civil Eftablifliment, were an intolerable Grie-
vance. On the fame Day, we pafTed an un-
animous Rel'olution, That on the Tuefday fol-
lowing, we {hould take that Grievance intci
Confideration. On that Tuefda)\ we paire4
another unanimous Refolution, that we would
confider the Grievance on the next Dav, and
on that very next Day refolved, that we
(liouid not confider the Grievance at all !"
1 fay. Sir, if this (hould be the Cafe, how
can fuch Fluduation be accounted for ? by
what flrange, by what miraculous Illumina-
tion can we fuppofe Gentlemen to difcover
inftantaneoufly, on Wednefday, that an Opi-
nion, which they had formed on T^uejday^
after long Confideration and Debate, was er-
roneous ? How fhall we account for Refo-
lutions diametrically oppofite, pafled in the
farheHoufe, and, by the fame Members, With-
iii four and twenty Hours of each other ?
Will there not be then fufficient Reafon to
fufpedt the Influence, the mere mention of
which has given fuch Offence ? Will not
bur Proceedings be confidered as a folemn
Mummery, and ourfelves as mere Shadows,
changing Place with the Light behind us,
and depending, for our very Exigence, upon
It'?
Day XVIII.] Affairs of Ir^ei. Ann. 331
^t ? But this, Sir, bad as it is, is not the
worft ; the Caufe of this Inconfiftency is ftill
more alarming than the Inconfiftency itfelf ;
whatever may be our Dependancc, it is for
the Intereft of all Parties that we fhould, at
leaft, appear to be free^ and, there is the
greateft Reafon to fear that an Enquiry, which
fuch extraordinary Methods are taken to pre-
yeotj would difclofe Abufes, and Enormities,
which it is of the laft Importance on one
Side to conceal, and, confequently, on the
other to difcover. If the PenlionS are not a
Grievance, why fhould an Enquiry be pre-
vented, that will fliew us our miftake ? If
they are a Grievance, why fhould an Enquiry
be prevented that v;^ill lead toRedrefs ? We are
told, indeed, that fuch an Enquiry is preclud-
ed, by an Affurance that his Majefty will
grant no more Penfions for Lives, or Years,
except upon extraordinary Occalion ; but, if
we acquiefce in this Affurance, and if the
Promife fhould be fulfilled, we fliall tacitly
acknowledge a Power, to the mere forbear-
ance of which we owe our Exemption from
Ruin, and, under which, we muft acquiefce
with filent fufferance, whenever it fhall be
exerted over us. Though we may depend
upon the exemplary Virtues of that moft
amiable
332 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII*
amiable Sovereign, whom Providence has, at
prefent, fet over us, it would be romantic to
hope that they will be tranfmitted to all who
fhall fucceed him. It behoves us to do for
our Poflerity, what our Anceftors did for us ;
and, if it is poffible, fecure, as a Right, what
as a Favour muft be precarious ; and proceed
to an Enquiry, which we cannot now relin-
quidi, without the Proflitution both of our
Intereft and our Honour j an Enquiry which
cannot but gratify a Prince, whole Happinefs
is our Profperity, and which may reftrain any,
who may hereafter delight only in the Dif-
play of their own Power, and fondly endea-
vour to derive Glory from Oppreffion.
Mrikf- P-.
MrS-
I am extreamly furprized, Sir, to hear Gen-
tlemen indulge themfelves in Declamations,
only to repeat what has been faid already, and
advance Principles that have been fliewn to
be erroneous : It is, furely, taking up Time
to very little Purpofe, that might be improv-
ed to the Advantage of ourfelves, and the
Public : It is making a Debate, once com-
men-
DaV XVIII.] A fairs of Ireland. 333
menced, endlefs ; and puts the bed Reafoner,
in the Condition of Hercules^ ftriving with
Anteus, who, the Moment he was thrown to
the Ground, flarted up again with new Vigour,
and gave his Antagonift the Labour of perpe-
tual Conqueft, without gaining the leaft Advan-
tage from his Superiority. It was irrefragably
proved, in this Houfe, but a few Days ago,
that the Crown had a Power of granting Pen-
fions, without the Violation of any Law ; that
this Power was, therefore, conflitutional ; and
fo united with other Parts of the Conftituti-
on, that, to fubvert it, would endanger the
whole Chain, of which it was a Link. It
. was proved, from our Statutes, from Hiftory,
from immemorial Cuflom, from the Journals
of this Houfe, not only that the granting of
Penfions was legal, but that the Legality of it
had never been called in Qaeftion ; and yet
Gentlemen flill talk of exempting the Reve-
nue from fuch Grants, as a Matter of Right,
and affe(5l to talk as if nothing more was ne-
cefTary to redrefs a Grievance, fuppofed to
arife from thefe Grants, than to enforce Laws
that have been broken, and alTert Powers that
have lain dormant. We have no Way, Sir,
of preventing more Penfions from being
granted, but that of prevailing upon his Ma-
jefty
334 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII.
jefty not to do, what might be legally done j
in other Words, by foliciting as a Favour,
what we cannot claim as a Right : This Fa-
vour, Sir, without Solicitation, is already of-
fered us, and, it may reafonably be expedted,
that thofe Gentlemen who are inclined not to
accept it, fhould juflify their Principles, fo
extraordinary and fo new, by fome Argu-
ments equally new and extraordinary ; that
they would, at leafl, get forward in the Dif-
pute, and not, like a Horfe in a Mill, exhauft
their Strength, by trotting in a Circle ; a
Drudgery which the poor Beaft is always
hood-winked to perform, and, in which, it is
impoflible for us to imitate him, without
ihutting our Eyes. Give me now leave. Sir,
to obferve, that feveral Things have, in the
Courfe of this Debate, been taken for grants
cd, which ftill remain to be proved. We
have been told that Penfions are greatly en-
creafed, which is a Fa6t not to be denied j
but it has been taken for granted, that Penfi-
ons are a Grievance, in Proportion to this En-
creafe, which is a Fallacy: Under the Pro-
tedlion of thofe very Sovereigns who have en-
creafed our Penfions, our Wealth is increafed
in at leaft an equal Degree. If, in the Year
jTOj, our Penfions amounted to 42,000/,
and
Pay XVIII. ] j^JairsoflR-ELAHD. 33^
and if, at prefent, they amount to 70,000/. it
does not follow, that we are now in a worfe
Condition than we were then, in the Proportion
of 42 to 70 : Has not every Revenue, both
public and private, encreafed in the fame Pro-
portion ? Nay, have not the Fortunes of pri-
vate Gentlemen been doubled ? Befides, Sir,
Money has, finqe that Time, leflened near
one Half in its Value ; fo that, although the
Sum granted in Penfions is larger, the Grati-
fication is not equal ; and, what the King now
gives is lefs in Value than it was when we
fuppofe that Grievance to have been tolerable,
which we now alledge to be ruinous. There
can be no Time more proper for the Difplay of
Royal Munificence than the prefent ; great
Opportunities for Diftin»:lion have offered du-
ring a War now at an End ; and great Merit
has been difplayed ; befides. Sir, our King is
young ; he is juft afcended the Throne j his
Heart overflows with Benevolence and Libe-
rality ; and what Wonder is it, that, with fuch
Claims upon his Bounty, and fuch a Difpofi-
tion to beftow, he fliould have made Ibme
Additions to the Penfions, which, yet, as I
have obferved, do not exceed in Reality,
■vvhatever they may do in Appearance, the
Qratuities beflowed by his Royal PredecefTors,
in
336 Debates relathe to the [Day XVIIL
in Circumftanees which lefs required them :
Yet, even at this Time, and in thefe Circum-
ftances, his Majefty is inclined to reftrain his
own Difpofition, that he may gratify ours ;
and what farther can be propofed by the En-
quiry, it is impoffible for me to imagine.^
Mr R — F — faid, in reply, that he was
forry to hear the Name of his Majefty io fre-
quently made Ufe of in the Houfe 5 that it
could not fail having' an Influence, from which
the Houfe, as a third Part of the Legiflature,
independant on the other two, ought al-
ways to be free : That it was the more dan-
gerous, in Proportion as his Majefty was the
mora amiable, and would more effe<5lually
fcreen a Miniftcr who had oppofite Qualities,
He faid, alfo, that the mention of a Letter
faid to be written by the Secretary to the
Viceroy, was irregular, and of pernicious
Tendency 5 and that, if it had come properly
before them, it could be confidered only as
the Letter of a Secretary, written to excuf6 or
palliate the Advice of an unpopular and dc-
hrudive Mcafure, and to prevent a con-
ftitutional Enquiry into a Grievance, of which
he had been the Caufe ; it was known, he
fajd, that fuch an Enquiry was about to be {tl
on
Dav XVIII.] ^Jairs of Ikeland, 337
on Foot, (o early as the fecond Day of the
Seffions, and that the Letter was written in
Conlequence of that Knowledge, and with a
View to effed what was now doing, the
poftponing the dreaded Enquiry to a long
Day.
The R-t H— ble Mr P- T— , the A. G.
in anfwer to this, faid, that the Affair of
the Letter was intirely mif-reprefented ; that
it was not written, in confequence of InteU
ligence received that an Enquiry into Pen-
fions would be fet on foot : But that the
Lord Lieutenant, upon his firft coming into
the Adminiftration, had applied to the King
upon that Subjed:, with a View of doing an
acceptable Service to this Country, and had
obtained a Promife from his Majefly, that no
more Penfions (liould be granted for Lives,
or Years, except on extraordinary Occafions 5
that he communicated this Promife to the
Gentlemen here, immediately upon his com-
ing into this Kingdom, and that to confirm
the' Promife, and give Weight to his Excel-
lency's Report, his Majefty had been graciouf-
ly pleafed to repeat it in a Letter, which he
ordered his Secretary to write for that Pur-
pofe.
The
338 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII,
The Order for the Day being read, upon
the Motion of Sir K — C — , he fpoke to the
following Effect :
Sir i?_ C_.
MrS— ,
I hope, Sir, it will not be fuppofed, that
what I may offer upon this Occalion, proceeds
from any partiality, either on one lide or the
other : I am not inclined to fay any Thing
againfl Penfioners, becaufe I was formerly
upon that Lift myfelf j nor am I inclined to
fay any Thing for them, becaufe I coniider
my Efcape from among them as one of the
mofl fortunate Circumftances of my Life. I
mull confefs. Sir, that every Thing that has
been faid to Day, upon the Que (lion now in
Difpute, appears to me to be foreign to the
Purpofe. The firft Thing propofed, by the
Appointment of a Committee, is, an Enquiry
into the State of Penllons ; but, I think, the
State of Peniions is perfedly known already :
What have we been doing, Sir, in our former
Debates on this Subje<ft, but making an En-
quiry that is now propofed to be made again ;
and, what is there t© be difcovered, that is
Day X VIII. ] Affairs <?/ Ir e l A n d. 339
not difcovered already? The next thing
propofed, is, to feek Remedy for the Griev-
ance which Penfions are fuppofed to pro-
duce 5 but, furely, this is no mere than a
Search for what is already found. The Re-
medy is an Ad: of Refumption, a Remedy
that has been applied before, particularly in
the Reign of King William^ and this may be
properly done in the Committee of Supplies,
if we find that the public Money has been
mif-applied, and that Penfions have been
granted to unworthy Objedls, which will be
the proper Subject of Enquiry there. If we
find that 75,000 /. is granted in Penfions, and
that this is a Load which we cannot bear, let
the Supplies be 75,000 /. lefs. I am, how-
ever, an Enemy to Heat and Animofity, and
to the Relation of any Converfations that tend
to produce either, and to the Reports of po-
pular Clamour, by which the Deliberations
of this Houfe iliould never be influenced j Itt
us a6t, not under the Diredlion of Pafilon, but
Reafon j not under the Influence of Power,
but of Judgment j let us confider Grievances^
and redrefs them the fhortcft Way, and, that
we may do fo, let us adjourn unneceflary En-
quiries to a long Day.
Z Mr
340 -Debates relative to the [Day XVIII,
Mr A— M,
MrS ,
I think. Sir, with the honourable Gentle-
man who fpoke laft, that our Grievances
fhould be redrelTed the ftiorteft Way 5 but
the ihorteft Way to redrefs Grievances will
not be to embarrafs and diftrefs the Govern-
ment, under the Protection of which we can
alone enjoy any national Advantages : To cut
off 75,000 /. of our Supplies, becaufe we
think 75,000 /. too much to grant in Penfi-
ons, feems to me to be a defperate and violent
Remedy, much worfe than the Difeafe : It
feems to me to be as rafli, inconfiderate, and in-
judicious, as it would be for a Man to burn his
Houfe that he might deftroy the Fleas ; but I
am of Opinion, that we may ftill do fomcthing
that we have not done, and fomething which
the Letter that has been io often mentioned
has not precluded. We do not only want
the Encreafe of Penlions to be flopped, but
we want fome already granted to be refum-
ed } and, before we can fpecify fuch as we
think improperly beftowed, we mufl enquire
into the Msrits and Characters of thofe that
re-
Day XVlII.] ^Jairs of Ireland, 341
receive them, and feleft the worthy from the
unworthy, and reprefent the whole in a pro-
per Manner to his Majefty. A Remedy we
know we have j but it is proper to enquire, in
the Committee propofed, what is the moft
eligible Remedy, and to report it, in a parlia-
mentary Manner, to the Houfe : And what-
ever the honourable Gentleman, who fpoke
laft, may fay, he muft be confcious, that, if
this is not done, nothing will be done. Some
Qentlemen have told us, that the Encreafe of
Penlions is not a proportional Encreafe of our
Burthen j or, at leaft, that our Strength is pro-
portionably increafed with it j but they feem
to forget, what may be feen with half an Eye,
that our Strength is exhaufted by other La-
bour, and that we have other Burthens, ftill
encreafing, to fuftain. The military and ci-
vil Lifts were never fo high as they are at
prefent. We have contradled a Debt, from
which we have hitherto been free ; our Taxes
are more numerous and more heavy, and
our Abfentees are multiplied. Let me only
add, that we are now at Peace,- and, that if
we are now taxed at our utmoft Ability, we
(hall be able to afford no auxilliary Afliftance
to our Sifter Country, in a Time of War, nor
even fo much as to defend ourfelves.
Z 2 CqI.
342 Debates relative to the [Day XVIII.
Colonel y — G — .
Mr S ,
It has been juftly obferved, by the honou-
rable Gentleman who fpoke laft, that the
Meafure propofed has two Objedis j the pre-
venting the Encreafe of Penlions, and the
Reduction of thofe already granted : We
have the Royal Promife, that they fhall not
be encreafed, and Time will, without any
Trouble of ours, decreafe them every Day.
It is this Gentleman's Opinion, that the pro-
per Objed: of the Committee's Enquiry will
be, which of the Pcrfons, who now receive
his Majefty's Bounty, as Penfioners, are wor-
thy, and which are otherwife ^ but a Mo-
ment's Refledion will, I dare fay, convince
him, that fuch an Enquiry will be attended
with infuperable Difficulties. It is very pof-
lible, nay certain, that his Majefly might have
very juft Motives for granting Penlions to
many Perfons, who, with Refpedt to ail that
we can know about them, will appear to be
unworthy of the Favour. The fecret Springs
of Government cannot be laid open, and it is
effentially neccffary to truft a difcretionary
Power fomewhere. According to our Con-
Ilitu-
Day XVIII.J Affairs of Ireland. 343
ftitution it in his Majefty, with Refped to
this Method of rewarding Services, either di^
redlly or indirectly, which he only can, and
he only ought to know : It does not follow,
that, becaufe a certain Perfon receives a Pen-
fion, that Perfon does, or was even thought to
deferve it by perfonal Merit, or perfonal Ser-
vices ; but it might be very fit to reward the
perfonal Merit, or perfonal Services of one
Man, by granting a Penfion, at his Requeft,
to another. His Majefty, who does know,
and who only can know, what we fliould feek
to difcover in vain, has taken our Circumftan-
ftances into Confideration, which none of his
PredecefTors have ever done ; and the wifeft
Thing we can do, is, certainly, to avail our-
felves of his gracious Difpofition, and rely upon
the Allurance which he has, unfoUicited, been
pleafed to make us. Let us, at leaft, ftay till
this AfTurance (hall be violated, before we take
a Meafure which cannot fail to grieve and to
provoke him , which will betray our Want of
Confidence in him, and Attachment to him,
^nd cannot fail of rendering him lefs inclined
to concur with our Defires, and lefi^en his
Complacency in our Profperity. Upon the
whole, I think we can gain nothing by the
JEnquiry propofed, and that we may lofe
Z 3 much J
344 Tiehafes relative to the [Day XVIIl,
much J I (hallj therefore, give my Voice for
putting it off to a long Day,
Mr T— Le H — made ufe of many Argu-
ments, to fhew the Impropriety of making
\Jit of his Majefty's Name in the Debates of
the Houfe ; and faid, he (hould be very
much fhocked and furprized, if, after an una-
nimous Refolution of the Houfe, for an En-
quiry into fo alarming a Grievance, a contra?
ry Refolution fhould take Place, and no En-
quiry fhould be made. He faid, fuch a
Change of Condud: could not poffibly be im-
puted to a Change of Opinion, and muft,
therefore, give Occafion to Surmifes higWy
detrimental to the Honour and Dignity of the
Houfe, wholly incompatible with the Inde-
pendance of its Members, and the true Inte-
reft of the Country they had been chofen to
reprefent.
The Queftion being then put, whether the
Enquiry fhould, or fhould not, be put off for
a long Day, it was carried in the Affirmative,
1 26 to 78.
T H U R S-
Day XIX.] j^Jairs of Ireland, 345
THURSDAY, Novemi^er 17, 1763.
NINETEENTH DAY.
MR £— . S.^ P— faid, that he would
beg leave to poftpone the Motion he
intended to make, with Refped: to addrefling
his Majefty on the Penfions, and the Difcove-
ry which he propofed to make concerning
"" them, till after the Supplies were granted, as
he would, by no Means, delay that Bufinefs.
Mr iJ— F— .
Mr S ,
I have the Pleafure to acquaint the Houfe^
that a Work of great Importance, at which
we have been labouring fix and thirty Years,
is, at laft, nearly compleated. The Key and
Harbour of Ba/iy Cajile are now put into fuch
a State, that more than fourteen thoufand
Ton of Coals have been fhipped within the
laft twelve Months, from thence to Dublin^
and other Parts of the Kingdom, which will
now be provided with a NecefTary of Life of
Z 4 univerfal
346 Debates relative to the [Day XIX.
univerfal Confumpdon, and the greateft Uti-
lity upon reafonable Terms, This Work
was undertaken by Mr Boyd^ who agreed to
advance the Money neceffary for the Purr
pofe, out of his private Fortune ; and the
Committee that was appointed to enquire
into the State of the Harbour, and Colleries
of Rally Caftle^ have come to the following
Refolutions ;
1. That Hugh Boyd, Efq; hath built a
\ compleat and lafting Harbour at Bally Cajile,
of hewn Stone.
2. That it has not been in the leaft De-
gree difturbed by any Stornis.
3. That feveral Ships have been faved by
the Harbour, that would otherv^^ife have
been loft,
4. That large Quantities of Coals have
been exported from Bally Caftle Colleries,
iince the Harbour has been built.
5. That the Harbour is a great National
Benefit,
6, That
Day XIX.] y^/n o/* Ireland. 347
6. That 7762 /. 6 s. 3^. has been expend-
ed by Mr Boyd in the Work.
7. That this Sum Ihould be paid to Mr
Boyd, to re-imburfe him his Expences.
8. That 1779/. 5 s. gd. being the Re-
rriainder of the Sum of 9541 /. 12 s. at which
the Repair of the faid Harbour was eftimat-
ed, fhould be paid to Mr Boyd to enable him
to compleat his Work.
The Houfe agreed to the firfl: fix of thefe
Refolutions, but, when the feventh was about
to be read a fecond Time, Mr J— F— G-^,
got up, and fpoke to the following Effed: :
Mr y- jF— G~.
MrS ,
I perfectly concur with the Houfe, in a-
greeing to the firft fix Refolutions of the
Committee, but, I think, it would be unpar-
liamentary, to agree to the feventh and eighth,
for the Re-imburfement of Mr Boyd ought, by
fhe conftant Cuftom of the Houfe, to be re-
ferred
348 Debates relative to the [Day XIX,
ferred to the Committee of Supplies. I am
alfo of Opinion, Sir, that the Houfe {hould
be very cautious in granting away the pub-
lic Money ; for it will naturally be inferred
from profufe Grants, that we have Money to
fparei and that our Complaints of the Pen-
fions, and a heavy Civil and Military Efta-
bUrhment, as a Burthen we cannot fuftain,
are ill founded. I am forry to fay, that I
have been Witnefs to many pecuniary De-
mands upon this Houfe, which, I think,
ought to be anfwered by the Inhabitants of
the feveral Diftri(5ts that were immediately
benefitted by the Works, on which the Mo-
ney was expended, particularly Bridges, and
Churches j and, I think, that as well on Ac-
count of the real State of the Nation, as to
fave Appearances, the ftridlell Oeconomy
fhould be obferved.
Mr R- F-.
MrS-
I am forry, Sir, that it is ncccflary to ob-
fcrve, that the Demand now made, with
which the Houfe has, upon the Refolution
of a Committee, been moved to cQrpply, is
very
Pay XIX.] j^ffairs of IkELA^ty. 349
Very different from the Prayer of a Petition.
It is the Demand of a Debt, Sir, which this
Houfe has engaged to pay, upon Conditions
which the Committee has reported to be
fulfilled, and, which we have juft allowed to
be fulfilled, by confenting to that Part of the
Report. In a former Sefiions,Sir, MrBoyd un-
dertook lo compleat a Work, at his own Ex-
pence, upon Condition, that, when it fhould
be compleated, he fhould be reimburfed by
this Houfe -, this Houfe engaged to reim-
burfe him upon that Condition 5 we have
jufl agreed that the Condition is fulfilled, and
the honourable Gentleman, now infmuates,
that he fhould not be repaid his Expences, for
fear the Government fliould think we had
Money to fpare ! He has, indeed, recom-
mended Oeconomy, and againfl Oeconomy
I have no Objedion ; yet, befides, that it is
bad Oeconomy not to pay our Debts, I mufl
obferve, that there is no worfe Oeconomy
than an ill-judged Parfimony. By with hold-
ing the Sums neceffary to improve our Ma-
pufadures and Trade, to facilitate the Com-
munication of Place with Place, to fupply
all Ranks with the NecefTaries of Life, and
promote fuch Principles as produce good
CjOndudj would as eftedually be our Ruin as
the
35^ ^shtttes relative to the [Day XIX.
the moft thoughtlefs Profufion. It is good
Oeconomy to lay out Money with Advantage ;
and Money laid out in repairing Harbours,
perfedling Manufadtures, facilitating Commu-
nication by Bridges, and promoting good
Principles, by building Churches, will be re-
turned in public Benefits, with an Increafe
of an hundred-fold.
»
The R-t H— ble Mr ^— ikT— .
Mr S ,
I perfedly agree, Sir, with the honourable
Gentleman, who fpoke laft, that no Confi-
deratlons of Oeconomy fliould prevent us
either from paying our Debts, or procuring
public Advantages j yet, I think, no Refolu-
tion of this Houfe fhould be made to bind
the Committee of Supplies to grant a certain
Sum for a certain Purpofe. I am alfo of
Opinion, Sir, that forne farther Examination
fliould be made, whether the Condition, on
which we have agreed to pay this Sum,
which is upwards of feven thoufand Pounds,
has been fulfilled. I would not be thought
to bring the Report of a Committee caufe-
lefsly into Queftion, but if rny Memory does
not
Day XIX.] Affain of Ireland. 351
not very much deceive me, no lefs than ten
thoufand Pounds w^as granted, many Years
ago, for the very Purpole now faid to be ac-
complifhed j and, in a fubfequent Seffions,
ten thoufand Pounds more, and the Work
was then reported to be compleated as it is
now, iyet, for want of fufficient Skill, in
condu(5ling fo unufual an undertaking, and
of fufficient Knowledge in chuling the Ma-
terials, it came to nothing j the wooden Part
was in a ftiort Time deftroyed by Worms,
and the Waves foon afterwards beat down the
reft. The Work being then to do over again,
another Application was made, and more
Money was granted, which was loft like the
former, though reported to have been laid
out to better Purpofe. I am, therefore, of
Opinion, that though Mr Boyd undertook to
compleat the Work at his own Expence,
according to an Eftimate, upon Condition,
that he fhould be reimburfed when it was
compleated in an effectual Manner j and,
though a Committee has reported it to be
effectually compleated, or nearly fo j yet that
it would not be prudent to grant the Money,
except Mr Boyd will enter into fuch Securi-
ty as ihall be approved, that it fhall ftand
for
352 Debates relative to the \V>ay XIX.
for a certain Number of Years, which it muft
do, if the Committee is not miftaken in their
Report. I think, therefore, that the Report
with Refped to the 7th and 8th Refolutions
fliould be recommitted, that the Report of
the private Committee may come again in
the ufual Way, before the Houfe, and that
it may then, according to the conftant Ufage
of the Houfe, be referred to the Committee
of Supplies.
Mr R— F — faid, in reply, that there wag
the greateft Reafon to conclude, that the
Work at Baliy Caftle would ftand, that mofl
Part of it had already ftood four Years, and
the reft two, and that Stone Work, when it
gave way at all, generally gave way before
the Cement was hardened ; and, he obferved,
that as thefe Confiderations were Inducements
to pay the Money without Security, fo they
would, for the fame Reafon, incline M.v Boyd
to give Security, if it fhould be required,
which he made no doubt of his being ready
and willing to do.
Upon this the 7th and 8th Refolutions,
were recommitted, the Houfe not being wil-
ling to bind, or to influence the Committee
ef
Day XX.] Affairs of iKixAi^n] 3^3
of Supplies, in the Grant of the Money,
claimed by Mr Boyd,
FRIDAY, Nov. 18, 1763.
TWENTIETH DAY.
MR R — F — reported from the Com-
mittee, to whom the 7th and 8th
Refolution mentioned above were recommit-
ted the following Refolution :
" That Hugh Boyd, Efq; deferves the Aid
of Parliament, upon his giving Security, by
Recognizance before the Chief Baron, ©r fome
other Baron of the Exchequtff, to fupport and
keep in repair, at his own Expence, the
Works by him eredted at Bally Cajile, for
one and twenty Years."
Dr L .
Mr S ,
This Work at Bally Cajlle, Sir, has been
made a Pretence for getting Money from the
Public, ever fince the Year 1721 ; and, Mr
Boyd,
2^4- Dekifes relative to the [Day XX,
Boyd^ upon the Payment of the laft 10,000 /.
gave the fame Security that he offers now for
keeping it up -, yet the whole Work went to
rack, and we engaged to advance him more
Money. I am told, Sir, that there was a
Sand-bank on the Outfide of that Harbour,
which by the Surge is now carried into it,
and renders the Ground there almoft level
with the reft of the Strand, and it is well
known, that there is no River or other Way by
which the Sand can be carried out of the
Harbour ; it is certain that the Public has not
profited in any Degree, by the vaft Sums
that have been laid out upon the Work, and,
therefore, I fliall not give my Vote to re-
ward Mr Boydy for having profited himfelf.
MrP— r— , theS.a
Mr S— ,
As I happen to be perfecSlly and particu-
larly acquainted with the whole Tranfadiion
concerning the Coal-Mine, and Harbour of
Bally Caftle, I beg the Patience of the Houfe
to lay it properly before them. A Colliery
was firft difcoverad at Bally Cajile, in the Year
172 1, and Mr Steward, the Gentleman in
whofe Eftate it lay, obtained a Grant from
Par-
Day XX.] Affairs of iRELANt). 355
Parliament of 2000 /. to aflift him in work-
ing it 5 he obtained 2000/. more in the next
Seffions, and another 2000 /. in the Seffions
following. All this Money was expended
in finking Shafts, and in other Works necef-
fary to open and work the Colliery, which
was of very great Advantage to Mr Steward^
and to the Neisrhbourhood, but no Advan-
tage could accrue from it to the Public, ex-
cept a proper Harbour could be made at
Baily Caftle^ for exporting the Coals to diffe-
rent Parts of the Kingdom j this being re-
prefented to Parliament, 5000 /. was granted
in one Seffions, and 5000 /. more in another,
to make fuch an Harbour j but thefe Sums
being found infufficient, 10,000 /. was grant-
ed afterwards, at which Time Mr Boyd, to
whom the Property of the Coal Mine had
defcended, entered into Security to compleat
the Work without farther Aid : But, not-
withftanding this vaft Expence, amounting to
no lefs than 26,000 /. tending principally to in-
creafe Mr Boyd's private Fortune, and,notwith-
ftanding the Security he had given, the whole
Work fell to Pieces. But, after this Dif-
appointment of the Public, and after this
Forfeiture of his Engagement, he applied a--
^ain to Parliament, in the Year 1759, for
A a tarth^r
35^ Debates relative to the [Day XX.
farther Aid : It is true, indeed, that he did
not defire any Money in Advance, but he de-
fired that if he compleated the Work, he
fhould be re-imburfed his Expence. It is
alledged, that the Parliament yielded to this
Requeft, and plighted their Faith to repay
him fuch Sums as he fliould lay out in the
Work, upon Conditions that are now fulfill-
ed ; but I do not find this Allegation fupport-
ed by fufficient Proofs and, I think, con-
lidering the vafl Sums that had before been
thrown away upon the fame Project, and the
Inefficacy of the Security that had been given,
it is not very likely to be true : Plowever,
he is now come with his Claim, and expeds
that the Public fhould pay for a Work, which
will immenfely encreafe his Eftate j this is a
Meafure, in which I can never concur, and,
if I thought it reafonable, that he ihould,
in any Manner be re-imburfed the Sums
that he has laid out for his own Advan-
tage, I would propofe, that the Money (hould
be raifed among thofe who fhare the Advan-
tage with him, the Neighbourhood, which
would have been furniihed with Coals from
his Mine, if the Harbour had never exifted ;
and by a Toll to be paid by the Shipping,
that come into, and go out of the Harbour.
The
Day XX.] Affairs of Ireland. 'i^y
The keeping tlie Harbour of Dublin clear is
certainly a public Benefit, yet that is not
done by an univerfal Tax, but by Methods,
which, I think, may be very properly adopt-
ed in the prefent Occafion.
Mr y- J5— ,aC— r.
Mr S ,
I very readily admit, Sir, that the Colliery
at Bally Caftle has been an Object of Parli'a-
, mentary Attention for many Years j and,' I
^think it is impoflible to. bring a ftronger
Proof that it is of national Importance; the
only Thing to be confidered, in my Opinion,
is, whether the Harbour is, at. length, what
the Wifdom of Parliament has been (^ dt-
Urous to make it. If it is, fcarce any ' Sum
can be called large, that has, or fliall be paid
for that Purpofe, compared with the im-
menfe Wealth that is annually drained from
this Kingdom for Coals, or with the Benefit
the Public will derive from our fupplying that
Commodity to ourfelves. By the Account of
Coals brought from Bally Caftle^ the lafl
Year, it appears that there was a faving to
the Nation of at leaft 10,000/. and it may
A a 2 eafily
35^ Debates relatrce to the [Day XX.
eafily be demonftrated, that the Trade mud
encreafe every Day. It is true, tliat the
Work lias not proceeded with an uninterrup-
ted Succefs, and, confidering its Nature, it
would have been a Miracle if it had -^ build-
ing a Harbour is an undertaking that is not
executed twice in an Age, and thoie con-
cerned in it, having, confequently, no expe-
riental Knowledge, miftake and mifcarriage
are almoft inevitable ; the Lofs, however,
that has accrued in carrying on the Works
of Bally Cajilc^ arofe neither from mifma-
nngement nor miftake ; but from an Event
which no Sagacity could forefee, and which
neither Diligence, nor Skill could remedy.
The Worm, common in the Wcfi hidieSy but
hitherto unknown in Europe^ got into, and
deftroyed the Wooden Frame, on which the
Mafonry was conftru(fted in the fame Man-
ner as it is in all Works of the like Kind ; if
it had not been for this Accident the Work
would, in the Opinion of unexceptionable
Judges, have ftood for Ages j and, by the Ac-
counts that have from Time to Time been
£;lven into this Houfe, by the Perfons intruft-
ed with the Money that has been granted to
carry on the Work, they appear to have laid
it out with Integrity and Oeconomy. I will
not
'An
Day XX.] Affairs of Ireland. 359
not deny, that the Work is of Advantage to
the Undertaker; but it is of much greater Ad-
vantage to the Public ; and, furely, it would
l>e unjuR, that the Public fhould withold
from him a P^eward for the Service he has
rendered it, merely becaufe a private Ad-
vantage accrues to him from the fame A6t :
It is the great Art, and the great Duty of
Government, to make Duty co-incide with
Intereft, and thus unite the Advantage of the
Individual with that of the Community.
The Government has very wifely allotted a
Reward for apprehending Robbers -, and if a
Man (hould feize a Thief as he wa5 going
off with his Booty, and thus recover what
he had flolen, would it not be very injurious
to deny this Man the Reward, upon Pretence
that he was a fufiicient Gainer by the Adl
already, in recovering the Property that he
would otherwife have loft ? It is certainly
our Intereft to encourage thofe, who ri/k
their private Fortune in Undertakings of pub-
lic Utility, independant of the private Advan-
tage they may obtain by their Succefs ; and,
lam, therefore, of Opinion, that Mr Boyd^
having fucceeded, fliould be re-imburfed his
Expences, which, if he had not fucceeded,
would have fallen upon himfelf,
A a 3 Mr
360 Debates relative to the [Day XX.
Mr 7?— F — , in reply to Dr L — , faid,
that he was furprized to hear one of the Re-
prefentatives of the Capital objed:, to the Re-
imburfing of Mr Boyd^ as that City profited
more by the Work than any other Part of the
Kingdom ; he was fure, he faid, that the
Price of Coals was already reduced by it, as
feveral Ships from Bally Cajlle^ had arrived
with Coals but a few Days ago.
Dr h — replied, that though he thought
himfelf under the greateft Obligation to the
City of 'Dublin, for making Choice of him
for one of its Reprefentatives, yet he fhould
be very fory to have it thought that he would
fliew any Partiality to it, at the Expence of
the Reft of the Kingdom j he added, that for
his Part, he had as yet experienced none of
the good Effeds of the Harbour, and Col-
liery at Bally Cajlle^ for, that Coals were as
dear as ever j and he thought it time enough
to pay for public Service, when the Public
experienced that they had been ferved.
It was then urged, that the private Com-
mittee was impovvered only to enquire into,
and report jhe State of the Harbour of Bally
Caftle
Day XX.] j^fairs of Jkel and, 361
Ca/Iky and not to report that Mr Boyd de-
ferved the Aid of ParHament. That it
would, therefore, be irregular, and a bad
Precedent for the Houfe to agree to that Re-
folution, befides having an undue Influence
on the Committee of Supplies.
It was, therefore, propofed, that the Re^
folution fliould be recommitted.
And it ' was ordered to be recommitted
accordingly.
A a 4 S A-
362 J^ebates relative to the [Day XXI.
SATURDAY, A/c-u. 19, 1763.
TWENTY -FIRST DAY.
TH E Houfe, according to Order, re-
folved itfelf into a Committee, to conr
lider the Supplies, and the Lord Lieutenant's
Speech.
The R— t H— ble A— M— took the
Chair as Chairman.
Mr P— "T— , the A. G. laid before the
Committee, an Account of the Supplies that
would be abfolutely neceflary to carry on the
King's Bufinefs ; and he particularly diftin-
gijiihed the Sums neceflary for the Military
Eftablifliment, for the Civil Eftablifhment,
and, for the Payment of the Intereft on the
National Debt ; He then, faid, that in con-
fequence of the Expences, necelTarily attend-
ing a burdenfome though fuccefsful War,
the Parliament had granted a Power to the
Crown, to raife 950,000 /. partly by Aids,
and partly by Vote of Credit, but that it had
not been found neceflary to raife more than
650,000 /.
Day XXI.] ^j/W^ Ireland. 36^
650,000 /. for which Infereft was agreed to
be given at five per Cent., He then propo-
fed that 100,000/. which had been lent free
of Intereft for the firft Year, fhould fland at
five per Cent, that the other Debentures fhould
be thrown together; that 350,000/. fhould
be drawn at four per Cent, and the Refl re-
main at five ; but, that the Debentures at
four fhould be lafb paid off: He then made a
Computation of the Interefl-, and added the
Amount to the Civil and Military En:ablifh-
ment : He alfo computed the Amount of the
hereditary Revenue, and the additional Du-
ties, at a Medium for fourteen Years, and, de-
ducting this Amount with that of the Loan
Duties, from the Sum to be raifed, fliewed
how much would remain for incidental Char-
ges, the King's Letters, and the Improvement
of the Country. He begged Leave to ob-
ferve, that, of the Money borrowed, there re-
mained in the Treafury 1 30,000 /. fo that the
National Debt could not be flatedat more than
520,000 /. He then flated the Amount of
the Military EflabHfliment in 1754, fince
which Time, feveral Regiments had been
fent from that Eflablifliment to America^
and, faid, that, although the mih'tary E-
ftablifliment did now much exceed that A-
mount
364 Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
mount, yet that the Increafe could not reafon-
ably be objedied to, if it was confidered that
Part of it arofe from the Addition of Dra-
goon's Pay J that the Number of Regiments,
and the Staff, were alio encreafed, and an ufe-
ful Body oF Artillery added. All thefe Aug-
mentations, and Additions, he faid, were ab-
folutely neceffary, and fuch as the Country
could much better bear now, than it could
bear the Eftablifhment of 1754 at that Time,
though the Amount of that Eftablifliment
was lefs ; and in this Opinion he hoped the
Committee would concur. He obferved,
however, that, before the Motion was made
for complying with the ufual Grants for the
Supply, it would be necelTary to put a Quef-
tion on the State of the National Debt. It
was, therefore, moved, that it was the Opini-
on of the Houfe, that the National Debt was
520,000/.
To this it was objedled, that, if the neat
Debt was fuppofed to be 520,000 /. the Sum
that remained, after deducting 130,000/. the
Money ftill in the Treafury unfpent, from
650,000 /. the grofs Debt, the Nation would
not get Credit for the 5000 /. Poundage on
the
Day XXI. Affairs of Ireland. 365
the 200,00/. borrowed by a Vote of Credit.
{^See the Debates of the ninth Day.)
Mr M— then faid, that he muft put the
Queftion on the lefs Sum, and, therefore, mo-
ved, that it was the Opinion of the Commit-
tee, that the National Debt amounted to
5 1 5,000 /. at Lady-Day lafl.
Mr R— Fitz-G — replied, he was well
informed, and fully perfuaded, that the Vice-
Treafurers had an undoubted Right, by Law,
to the Poundage in Queftion, and had adlu-
ally received it : He added, that now to de-
prive them of it, by a Refolution of a Com-
mittee of the whole Houfe, would be contrary
to all Juftice : That if their Right was doubt-
ful, it fhould be tried in a Court of Law, and
left to the Determination of fuch Court.
Mr J— Fitz-G—, and Mr P— T-, the
A. G. declared themfelves to be of the fame
Opinion. Mr F— G — faid, that, as the
Houfe had not only acquiefced in the Vice-
Treafurer's appropriating the 5000 /. but con-
firmed it, he thought that the fetting afide by
a fubfequent Law, what a prior Law had ear-
ned into Execution, would be attended with
much
^66 Debates relathe to the [Day XXI.
much worfe Confequences than the Lofs of
the Money. And the A, G. faid, that as he
had not the leaft Doubt of the Vice-Treafu-
rers' being entitled fo the Money which had
been allowed them, he could not think it pru-
dent to put the Public to the Expence of a
Suit.
The Queftion being then put on the lefs
Sum, it palTed in the Negative, ^^ againft 57.
And the Queftion being then put on the
larger Sum, it pafTed in the Atfirmative, Ne-
mine Contradicente.
A Motion was then made, that the Com-
mittee fliould agree to grant the u/uai Sup-
plies, which produced the following Debate :
Mr E— S— P-.
I think. Sir, that our agreeing to grant a
grofs Sum,' under the Denomination of ufual
Supplies, will preclude us from the Advanta-
ges of objedting to the Grant of Money for
any particular Purpofe. It is the Cuftom,
Sir, of another Country, to mention every
Eflab-
Day XXL] Affairs of Ireland. 367
Eftablifhment particularly, and provide for it
as the Houfe thinks proper, after a feparate
Confideration ; and I therefore intend to
move for an Amendment in the Motion, and
that the Word necejjary fhould be inferted^
inftead of the Word iifiial -, and then, what-
ever Sums may not be thought necejjary^ and
whatever Modes may not be thought proper,
may admit of Debate ; Gentlemen will have
an Opportunity to offer their Thoughts upon
the Subjedt, and a better Regulation may take
Place. As to what the honourable Gentle-
man on the Floor has faid, .with Refped: to
ftating the military Eftabliihment, I fliall beg
Leave to obferve, that, I think, the lafl: mili-
tary Eftablifliment, for a time of Peace,
fhould not have been ftated from any particu-
lar Year j if it is flated for the two Years
1752 and 1753, and for the two Years 1754
and 1755, and fo, at a medium, it will be
found lefs than the prefent Eftablifliment,
which is alfo a military Eflablidiment in
Time of Peace, by a much more confiderable
Sum. Now, Sir, I Oiall endeavour to fliew
that the prefent Eftablifliment is not neceffary
for any good Purpofe, either to us, or our fifler
Country, for I iliall always confidcr our Inter-
efts as united, and I (hall alfo endeavour to
fluew
368 Debates relattve to the [Day XXI.
/hew, that, whatever ufeful Purpofe it may be
fuppofcd to an Twer, it miift incur Difad vanta-
ges much more than equivalent^ by taxing us
above our Ability. In the firft Place,^it will,
I fuppofe, be readily granted, tliat the Milita-
ry EftabiiQimentj dudng the Peace that was
concluded at Aix-la-Chapelle^ was fufficient
for that Time ; and I fliould be glad to know
why the fame Eftablifliment is not fufficient
for this. Has this Peace left us in lefs Secu-
rity, or is it likely to be of lefs Duration ? As
we have been lately taught to think the con-
trary, by AlTurances of the higheft Authority,
this cannot be fuppofed j and, if any Gentle-
man prefent, can fuggeft another Reafon, why
the Military Eflablifliment, that was fufficient
then, is not fufficient now, I (hould be glad to
hear it. But it has been faid, Sir, that we
are now better able to bear the prefent Eftab-
llfliment, than we were to bear an Eftabliffi-
ment fo much lefs, when it took place. Now
I muft, in the firft place, beg leave to ob-
ferve, that, allowing this to be true, it cannot
be fuppofed to juftify the Exceedings of the
prefent Eftabliihment, if fuch Exceedings
cannot be proved to be neceflary j for I Ihould
be very forry to think any Gentleman in this
Houfe imagined that our rjare Ability to fuf-
tain
Day XXL] y4ffairsof Irela^nd. 369
tain a Burthen, was a fufficient Reafon for
laying it on. But, by what Powers of Elo-
quence are we to be perfuaded that our Abili-
ty is greater ? At theConclufion of the Peace
oi Aix-La-Chapclle, in the Year 1749, Mo-
ney was accumulating in the Treafury, as ap-
peared from a Surplus that will not eafily be
forgotten : The hereditary Revenues, as well
as the additional Duties, were encreafing ; the
Article of Management v/as much lower ;
and the Lift of Penfions was comparatively
fmall ; Employments, and their Salaries, were
within narrower Bounds j there were no Ex-
ceedings in the Concordatum, and extraor-
dinary fecret Services were not thought necef-
fary. But, at prefent, Sir, our Treafury is
not only exhaufted, but we are encumbered
with a Debt of 520,000 /. the Intereft of
which our beft Calculators have been ex-
tremely puzzled in contriving to pay ; the Lift
of Penfions is enormous j many new and ufe-
lefs Employments have been created, and the
Salaries of the old ones greatly encreafed j
many more Perfons, of great Property, are be-
come Abfentees ; the Revenues of the Crown,
during the laft Year, have decreafed more than
40,000 /. and will, probably, decreafe ftill
more; and the Management of them is, not-
with-
%j6 Debates relative to the [Dav XX t
witliftanding, regulated upon a larger Scale.
We have read, Sir, very extraordinary Ac-
counts of Etoquence, and Accounts ftiU more
extraordinary of Mufic : We have read, Sir,
that Amphionh Mufic influenced the Stones
to dance into a Wall j and this Feat, I be-
lieve, {lands hitherto unrivalled by any Pour-
crs of Eloquence ; yet, I think, he that can
perfuade us that we are richer, when we are
not only without Money, but in Debt, than
we v^ere when we were not only out of Debt,
but had a conliderable Sum lying by us, will
fairly turn the Scale in favour of Eloquence
againfl: Mufic, and efFed a greater Wonder
than AmphioUy who built Thebes with his
Harp. The military Eflablilhment Is faid.
Sir, to be a neceffary Preparative for War j
but can that prepare us for War, which tends .
to deftroy our Exiftence ? Are we to be pre-
pared for War by a Drain of Taxes, which
will exhauft, and more than exhauft us, du-
ring Peace ? The beft Way o'l improving
Peace into an Ability for War, is the Cultiva-
tion of Arts, the Extent of Trc.de, and the
Practice of Oeconomy ; for this only can in- ;|
vigorate the Root, of which all the Modes of
national Defence are Branches. I am adiam-
ed, Sir, to defcend to Particulars, after fo ge-
neral
Pay XVil.] AffhirsoflvLEi.A^'b. 371
neral a Confutation of what has been faid in
favour of our prefcnt Eftablldiment ; and yet,
left It (hould be pretended that Particulars
were pafied over, becaufe they were not un-
derftood, I fliall beg leave to obferve, that,
as Matters are now managed, the ufual E-^
rLabli{l:iment of 12,000 Men will coft us con-
fiderably more than formerly, without produ-
cing one fingle^ Advantage. Thefe 12,000
Men, Sir, are now formed into fix more Re-
giments than they ufed to be, and the Num^*
ber of Officers is, confequently, greatly in-
ereafed j this increafes Expence, and it alfo
increafes Dependants, which cannot be pre-
tended, I think, to be national Benefits: Itis^
however, pretended, that, when a War fliall
break out, thefe Regiments may be cafily re-
cruited, and a neceffary Number of Men raifed
without forming new ones j and that the Offi-
cers, which are now faid to be fupernumerary,
will be better able to difcipline the Men, than
young Gentlemen juft taken into the Service:
But, if the Peace continues long, the Expence
of thefe Officers, till they can be ufcful, will
be more than equivalent to the Ufe they will
be of on the Approach of a War, even fup-
pofing they will then be as ufeful as is pre-
tended i but I think it is eafy to (hew thatthis
^ b will
372 Debates relathe to the [Day XXf.
will not be the Cafe : Officers that have
grown old in a State of liftlefs Inadivity, du-
ring a long Peace, who have been ufed only
to lounge about at Country Quarters, without
any Thing either to think of, or to pradlife,
but Expedients ta kill Time, naturally grow
difiatisfied with their Profeffion, and get a
Habit of negleding the Duties of it, by hav-
ing little Duty to do ; and it is not reafona-
ble to believe, that, upon an Augmentation^
Gentlemen in thefe Circumftances, and under
thefe Habits, will exert themfelves with fa
much Zeal aiid Adivity^ • as young Men,
warmed with a Spirit of Enterprize, new to
the Profeffion, and pleafed with the Splendor
and Parade of it, when their Service is requir-
ed : and, as to the Ability of difciplining the
new Troops, every Gentleman, who has the
leaft Acquaintance with military Affiiirs,
knows, that the difciplining Recruits gene-
rally falls to the Share of non-commiffioned
Officers, and, therefore, that there is no need
of an expenfive Train of commiffioned Offi-
cers for that Purpofe. Let me alfo, upon
this Occafion, obferve, that, during the lafk
War, the new raifed Regiments diftinguifned
themfelves as nobly as any of the Veterans of
the Field, and that the Englijh Militia were
remark-
t) AY XXL] Affairs of lRV.hAi^Tf. 373
remarkably well difciplined. I come, now,
to confider the Staff, and, as that Teems to
have been enormoufly encreafed, without any
Pretence of Advantage, the Trouble of (hew-
ing fuch Pretences to be fallacious, is preclud-
ed. I fliall only obferve, that the Eftablifli-
mentin England'vs, 17,600 Men, and the E-
flablil]]ment here but 12,000, but yet that the
Staff here is double to the Staff in England :
If in England the Staff is fufRclent, I fhould
be glad to know why it is to be fo much more
here j the Difproportion is immenfe ; if the
Staff upon 12,000 was only equal to that up-
on i7j6oo, the Difproportion would be great j
but, if the Staff upon 12,000, is double to
that upon 17,600, there mufl certainly be
fome Reafon for it, very different from mere
military Advantage. I am unwilling to fug-
gefl that Reafon, and, indeed, it is fo obvi-
ous, that it need not be fuggefted ; efpecially
as moft, if not all the general Officers, are
Abfentees. As to the Ordnance, which is
another heavy Article of our Expence, hav-
ing encreafed no lefs than 26,000/. I confefs
myfelf wholly unable to conceive what End it
can anfwer : We have no Fortifications, as I
know of, to defend ; and, I am informed,
upon very good Authority, that all this Ord-
B b 2 nance
374 Debdtei relative to the [Day XXt.
nance does not include as many Cannon as
would mount a thirty-Gun Ship : There are,
however, no lefs than twelve Clerks belong-
ing to that Board, and it has, in every Re-
fped, the lame Eltahlifhment, as to Officers,
with that in Englmid -^ with all this it is liable
to no Check, nor is it included in the Muf-
ter-Office: At prefent, I confefs, this is not
much to be regretted, for, I am perfuaded,
the noble Earl, who now prefides in this De-
partment, will take Care to have the Duty
effecftually done, and the Corps kept com-
plete. It is, indeed, a happy Circumftance
for us, that he has been appointed to this Sta-
tion, as well on Account of the Integrity and
Uprightnels of his Character, as on Account
of his redding and fpending his Fortune a-
mong us : But if the Corps lliould go into
the Hands of another Commander, who may,
probably, be of another Country, the Differ-
ence will be very much to our Difadvantage.
The Commander has a Power of filling up
all the Employments, except fix, which will
then, probably, be given to Perfons who re-
fide on the other Side of the Water, and the
whole Corp?, being fubie(^ to no Check,
might do what they pleafed. As the milita-
ry Eftablifhment, therefore, appears to me to
be
Day XXI.] ' ylffliirs of Ireland. 375
be, ill every Refped:, inconfiftent with the
National Iiitereft, and to be equally abfurd
and pernicious, both in a general and particu-
lar View, I muft beg leave to move, that
the Word nece[jary may be inferted in (lead of
the Word iifiiaL
Mr P— r-,the A.G.
To the Amendment now propofed by the
Honourable Member, I have two Objed:ions ;
I think it is, in itfelf, improper; and, I con-
jfefs, I cannot conceive that it can aafwer any
End. It is certain, that, in a neighbouring
Country, a Supply is feparately voted for e*
very particular Part of the Eftablifliment,
and there it feems to be very proper, becaufe
the Supplies are granted every Year : But here
the hereditary Revenue is a ftandiiig Fund for
the Exigencies of Government, whatever they
may be ; and the additional Duties are voted
only as an Aid to that Fund, and are, there-
fore, confidered as included in it : The Sup-
plies, therefore, are always voted in one Ag-
gregate, and I do not fee how they can be
voted otherwife. I cannot, however, com-
prehend how this Mode of granting the Sup-
plies, can deprive us of the Advantage of ob-
B b 3 jedling
37^ Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
jeding to particular Parts of the Eftablifh-
ment, which may be thought improper or
unneceiTary. If the honourable Gentleman
thinks 12,000 Men too many, he may objed:
to the Sum appropriated to the Payment of
them J and, if it be the Senfe of the Houfe,
that a fmaller Number of Men will be fuffi-
cient, a lefs Sum will, confequently, be voted.
The fame Thing may be done with Refpedl
to the Officers, the Ordnance, and every other
Part of the Eftabliiliment ; nor does the Mo-
tion already made, in any Degree preclude it.
The Amendment propofed, I think, is alfo
improper in itfelf j for, if the Word neajjary
is fubflituted inflead of the Wor.d iifual^ it
will imply that fomething unneccjjary had
been propofed. As to my making Choice of
the Year 1754, in flating the Difference be-
tween the prefent Peace EftablKhment, and
that fubfequent to the Treaty of Aix-la-Cha-
pelle^ I thought myfelf warranted in it, as
that Year was, very nearly, a Medium be-
tween the Conclufion of the Treaty, and the
breaking out of the lad War. I muft alfo
beg leave to obferve, that there are feveral un-
avoidable Caufes of the Increafe of the prefent
Eftabliihraent, which he has not confidered.
The Pay of the Dragoons was incrcafed by a
Vote
Day XXL] y4fairs of Ireland. 377
Vote of this Houfe 5 there is a half Pay Lift
which amounts to 32,000/. a Year, and an
additional Staff was added to the Regiment of
Dragoons ; if thefe Sums are deduded, he
will find the Encreafe of the Eftablifliment
by no means fo large as he would fuggeft.
As to the Mode of fixing the Eftablifliment,
it has, upon very mature Confideration, been
adopted by a neighbouring Country ; and, as
I am informed, approved by Perfons of the
greateft military Experience. As the Increafe
of our Expence, therefore, is not fo unaccoun-
table as he fuppofes, neither is it fo burthen-
fome : Let us confider the Amount of the
Sums which we have voted for interior Im-
provements, and, from that, infer our pecuni-
ary Ability. In the two ScfTions before the
Year 1753, 400/. in each Seflions was thought
a fufficient Bounty for public Works : In the
Year 1753, when there was a Surplus in the
Treafury, no lefs than 30,000/. was granted
in fuch Bounty, and 40,000/. more the Seffi-
ons after wai ds, fo that from that Time to this,
I cannot think there has been lefs than
400,000 /. granted for the Improvement of
this Country, which, perhaps, is more than
any other Nation in Europe has allotted to the
fame Purpofe, confidering the Difference of
B b 4 Extent
573 Debates relative to the [Day XXt.
Extent and Revenue. Now, Sir, if we are
able to expend fuch Sums upon other Objedls,
of National Advantage, how comes it that
we are crufhed at once by the Increafe of our
military Eftablifhment ? As this Increafe a*
rifes from the Execution of a Plan that has
been approved by the beft Judges, as mofhef-
fed:ual for our Defence, it lliould, in my O-
pinion be confidered as neceflary to a
Scheme for promoting National Advantages,
and come in for its Share of the Sums allotted
to public Works : Beiides, Sir, as I would
not fuppofe that the vaft Sums granted for the
Improvement of this Country have been ex-
pended without Improving it, I mud: con-
clude, that our Abilities, after Improvements
adequate to fuch Sums, are proportionably
greater than they were before, and that our
Country is at once better worth defending,
and more capable to provide for its Defence.
I will add, Sir, that in Proportion as it is bet-
ter worth defending, it is more likely to be
attacked, and, for that Reafon, a more effec-
tual Defence is necefl'ary ; what is worth
keeping, is worth taking away, and our Dan-
ger from without, increafing in Proportion to
our interior Profperity, our Preparations
for Defence fliould alfo proportionally en-
creafe,
T^AvXXi.] Affairs of Ireland. "^yg
creafe, and the fame Circumftances that fur-
nifh the Reafons for thefe Preparations, will
alfo abundantly furnifh the Power. To con-
elude, Sir, let me appeal from Argument to
Experience ; every Gentleman prefent, has
a pieafing Demonflration of the Encreafe of
our public Wealth, by the Encreafe of his
private Fortune, and, I call upon all that hear
me, to declare whether, in general, it is not
more than equivalent to the increafed Ex-
pence of our Military Eftablifliment, which
has, with all the Pathos of Exaggeration, been
reprefented as an Inundation, or an Earth-
quake, that was to fweep us from the Face
of the Earth, or to bury us in its Bowels ; for
thefe Reafons, I fhall Vote to have the Quef-
ilion put, as I propofed it.
The R— t H— ble W- G— H—.
I am very forry. Sir, to find myfelf under
a Neceffity of differing, as well from my
honourable Friend near me, as from the ho-
nourable Gentleman on the Floor, whofpoke
lad : In my Opinion, Sir, the prefent Peace-
Eftablifliment fliould be compared with that
of the Year 1751, as that Year and the pre-
fent are the Years immediately fubfequent to
the
3 So Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
the Treaties of Peace, and, I muft obrerve,
that particular Circumftances, or Exigencies,
peculiar to either Year, are not to be confi-
dered as Parts of the general Plan, nor is the
Expence which they might make neceffary,
to be confidered as an Expence eilential to
fuch Plan. Now, I do not find that the Ex^
pence of the prefent Peace-Eftablilhment, ex-f
ceeds that of the Peace-EftabHfliment, in the
Year 1751, more than 111,000/. Out of
the Staff which makes part of that Sum, we
muft iirft dedud the Sum of 5500 /. an addi-
tion to the Salary of the Lord Lieutenant ; and
the Sum of 4000 /. an addition to the Sa-
lary of the Secretaries, making together 9500A
we mufl dedud: the half- pay Lift which a^
mounts to 32,000 /. and the additional Pay to
the Dragoons, which amounts to 20,000 /.
more, with the increafed pay to the Deputy
Quarter-Mafter, Adjutant-General, and other
neccffary Staff" Officers, fo that the Encreafe of
the Eftablifliment cannot be reckoned at quite
50,000 /. As to the Staff, I muft acknow-
ledc^e, that it is heavier here than in England y
but, I think, it is eafy to convince every
candid and difpafiionate Mind, that it muft
be fo •, there is not a fufficient Number of
Gentlemen refident in Ireland, and properly
quali-
Pay XXL] Affairs in Ireland. 3S1
qualified to furniih the Staff; as a Staff, there-
fore, is effentially necelTary, it muft be form-
ed of Gentlemen who have Regiments in
England^ and Seats in the Parliament there,
with other Appointments, which make theic
Attendance in that Kingdom indifpenfibly
neceffary ; fo that if the Staff confiited
only of the neceffiry Number, fuppofing the
whole to be refident, the Bulineis could nevef
go on, fome being always unavoidably ab-
fent ; that a fuilicient Number, therefore,
may be refident. to tranfad: the Bufinefs here,
it is neceffary that the Staff fhould confiil: of
Super-numeraries. I muff now obferve, that
though the conftitutional Eftablifliment, in the
Year 17 51, was 12,000 Men, yet there was
at that Time but 11,500 Effedives kept
up J but as we now keep up the whole
Number, the Expence of 500 Men muft be
dedudied from the 50,000 /. which the pre-
fent Eftablilhment is fuppofed to exceed the
Eftablidiment of 1751. But it is objeded,
that, in the prefent Eftablifhment, there is a
great Increafe of Officers ; I admit the Fad,
but, I think It by noMeans unjuftifiable 3 Gen-
tlemen, that are not experimentally acquainted
with military Affairs, may fuggeft what they
pleafe, but thofe that are, know that an Ar-
my
382 Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
my receives very great Advantages from a
numerous Commiiiion. Officers that have
been trained in the Service muft have a Skill
that young Officers cannot have, and, allow-
ing that Recruits are difciplined, chiefly, by
non-commiffioned Officers, it is necefTary
that the commiffioned Officer fliould have
fome Experience, in order to fee the non-
commiffioned Officers do their Duty, and to
know when it has efFed:ually been done.
Befides the Gentlemen who have Commiffi-
ons under the prefent Eftabliffiment, were
before in the Service, and, if they had not
been taken into the Forces that were kept on
Foot at the Conclufion of the Peace, when
their own Corps were diftanded, they mufl
have received Half-pay j fo that we have the
whole Advantage of their Service for the ad-^
dional Half-pay, which they receive upon
being employed ; neither is the Difproportion
between the Officers and private Men fo
great as appears at firfl Sight, when Allow-
ance is made for the Redudion of a Com-
pany from every Regiment, and a Man
from every Company and Troop, which Al-
lowance will reduce our Commiffion, nearly,
to the fame Plan that has been adopted in
Epigland, From this exceeding of 50,000/,
we
Day XXI.] Affairs of Ireland. 383
we muft alfo dedudl the Increafe of the
Artillery, and the only Queftion will be,
whether that Increafe is neceffary. Now,
Sir, the State of the Artillery, before the pre-
fent Regulation took place was wretched in
the higheft Degree. Upon the little Alarm
that was fpread by the ralh and hopelefs At-r
tempt of Thurotj 3. Train of Artillery was
marched to Newry^ and another was fent to
Clonmel; but, neither of thofe Trains had
fifty Men with them as a Guard, nor was
there one of thofe that were with them, that
knew how to fire a Gun ; it is, therefore,
very clear thatfome Regulation was necefiary,
and that which has been fo much complain-
ed of, fcarce makes our Artillery proportio-
nate to our Eftablifhment of 12,000 Men.
The Artillery Company confifls of 400 Men,
which coft 26,000/. a Year; now in Eng-
Jandy where the Army confifts vf 17,600;
the Train of Artillery confids of 1 500 Men,
which cofls 150,000 /. a Year ^ fo that con-
fider this Eftablifhment as you pleafe, it will
be found neither difproportionate in itfelf,
with Refped: to its feveral Parts, nor to the
Ability of the Country, nor to the Service it
is to perform ; it has been iaid, indeed, not
to be adequate tq the Service, and that it could
not
384 Debates relativeto the [Day XXI.
not furnifh Cannon to a thirty-gun Ship, and
this 1 am willing to admit, at prelent, be*
caufe it is in its Infancy, but the very Objec-
tion fliews a better State to be deiirable, and
it is making its Progrefs towards a better
State every Day. Upon the whole, Sir, I am
perfuaded that 12,000 Men cannot reafon-
able be thought too maay, and that 1 2,000
Men could not poffibly be put under a better
Regulation.
Mr H— F— .
I obferve. Sir, that the honourable Gen-
tleman, who Ipoke lad, among other Expe-
dients to reconcile us to the enormous Ex^
pence of our military EHiablirnment, has ob-
ferved, that, in many Inftances, it is the fame
as in Great Britain ; but, furely, if we take
Jiim at his Wo''d there needs no other Proof
that it is an Expence which wc cannot pof-
fible fuftain ; how is it poflible, Sir, that this
miferable Country, precluded from every
advantageous Branch of Trade, imall in ex-
tent, and three fourths of it unpeopled, a
Country that feels itfelf finking under a Debt
of 600,000 /. the mere Interefl of wliich it
has puzzled our moft able Calculator's to pay,
how
I
Day XXL] Afcji/s of Ire lakd. 385
how is it pofiible. Sir, that this Country
fhould keep pace with Great Britain, the
moft flourifhing and moft opulent Nation
under Heaven, with a Trade that covers the
Sea, and bufies the moft diftant Parts of the
Earth ; of great extent in comparifon with
this inferior Spot, fwarming with Inhabitants,
and abounding with Money ; a Nation that
fuftains a Debt of 150,000,000 /. of which
it pays the Intereft without giving up one
Luxury, or neglecting one interior Improve-
ment ? That we fhould be expected to pay
for public Eftabhrhments, after the fame Rate
as this mighty Nation is furely unreafonable
in the higheft Degree j but the honourable
Gentleman has gone farther. Sir, he has al-
lowed that in fome Articles we pay after a
ftill dearer Rate, even than Great Britai?i -,
he has allowed, Sir, that our Staff is fuperior,
and he has alledged that it ought to be fo,
for a Reafon that exhibits our Situation in
the moft mortifying and alarming View.
Deplorable, indeed, is the Condition of that
Country, which is under the unhappy Ne-
ceftity of paying twenty Servants, that it may
be ferved by ten, at the fame Time that the
Wages even of the ten, amounts to more
than it can afford to pay. We have been
told,
^^6 Debates relative to the [Day XXf.
told, Sir, that we mufi: pay a numerous Staff*,
becaufe fome will be always abfent, and
becaufe it is necelTary that a certain Number
Ibould refide j now, Sir, it will appear, that
after an unrealbnable Sum has been exacted
from us to pay many, as the only Condition
upon which we can be ferved by few, thofe
few render us no Service at all j it is well
known, Sir, that our whole Staff is abfentj
notwithftanding the Refidence of a certain
Part is fuppofed to be indifpenfibly necefTary,
and, notwithftanding, we are to pay for the
Refidence of that Part at fo enormous a Price :
The Injury, therefore, that we fuffer by this
Mcafure, is the moft complicated and aggra-
vated that can be imagined ; wt pay a double
Number, that we may have the Service of
half; the Service of half is abfolutely necef-
fary, but the Service of half is not rendered
us, and it is not rendered, becaufe thofe whom
we pay for it are, with others, whom we
alfo pay for doing nothing, fpending oup
Money in another Country ! I would not
be thought. Sir, to exaggerate Fads by ima-
ginary Circumftances, or give them a more
formidable appearance by Rhetorical Flou-
rifhcs } when General Officers on the Staff
were wanted here at the Redudion of the
Troops,
Day XXL] ^Jhirs of Ireland. 2^1^
Troops, there was not one to be found, and
we were under a Ncceflity of hiring other
Generals to do their Bufinefs j and fliall
we tamely confent to continue in a Situation
at once fo oppreffive and ridiculous ? Shall
we contradt Debts of which we can neither
pay Principal, nor Intereft, that we may
maintain a Number of Servants, whom we
never fee, in Idl-. nefs and Luxury, and, at the
fame Time, hire Men by the Day to wait at
our Table ?
There is one Article, indeed, in which
the honourable Gentleman has told us, we
are not rated equal to the Proportion obferv*
ed in Engla?id, that of our Artillery j but,
though our Artillery may be lefs in Propor-
tion to our i2jOoo Men, than the Artillery
of England^ in Proportion to 17,600, yet it
does not follow that we are under-rated in
that Article, for the Artillery of £;?g-/jWmuft
be confidered as relative, not only to the
17,600 Men, which he has mentioned, but
to a vaft Marine, of which he has taken no
Notice ; and to feveral Forts, v/hich it is there
thought neceflary to keep up ; whereas it
is well known that we have neither Forts nor
Marine. As I am now following the honour-
C c -Mi
388 Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
able Gentleman in a Comparifon that he
has drawn between this Country and E?ig»
land^ I cannot omit to obferve, that our Mi-
litary Eftablidiment includes four Regiments
of heavy Horfe ; that, in England , heavy
Horfe have been laid afide, as well becaufe
they are more expenfive, as becaufe they are
kfs ufeful than other Troops j in this Article
certainly, the Difadvantage is on our Side, and
I fhould be glad to know upon what Pretence
we are loaded with an ufelefs Expence from
which our Neighbours are fet free.
I think, Sir, that we have fome Reafon to
complain of the Manner in which our Regi-
ments have been multipliedj even fuppofing
the Multiplication of them to be an eligible
Meafure fimply confidered ; all our old Re-
giments, Sir, fuftered a Redudion of one
Company to make room for the new favo-
rite Regiments that were to be placed upon
this Eftablidiment J now. Sir, the Officers
of thefe reduced Companies, had, furely, a
right to confider themfelves as intitled to
their Commiffions, and the full Advantage of
them, at leaft, while the Regiments to which
they belonged fl:iould be kept up ; the pub-
lic Faith was pledged to them for this, and,
upon
Day XXT.] Affairs of Ireland. 389
upon their Confidence in the public Faith,
they had formed their Habits of Life -, no
Man can be blamed for not providing againft
Contingencies, to which he has no Reafon to
fuppofe himfelf liable ; and it is very inju-
rious to fubjedl a Man to Evils, which he has
neither deferved nor forefeen ; the Gentle-
men, Sir, that have thus been turned out of
their Appointments have Wives, Families,
Creditors, or Dependants of fome Kind, who
muft fufFer with them ; and the Injury to In-
dividuals, muft, therefore, extend to a very
large Circle -, the Mifchief, however, does not
ftop here, for the Public is equally injured as
a collective Body. The Increafe of Regi-
ments and Officers, for which the Reduiftion
of thefe Companies has made room, muft en-
creafe the Power ofthe Miniftry,by encreafing
the Number of its Dependants ; our Army is
indeed, rather an Army of Officers than Men -,
and the Influence of the Minifter extends as
well to thofe who are in expectancy as to
thofe that are in PolTeffion of Commiffions ;
and this Diladvantage alone is, in my Opinion,
much more than a Counttr-ballance to any
Advantage, either real or pretended, in the
railing Recruits, or difcipiining the Men. But
whatever may be the Utility of the Eftablifh-
C c 2 ment
390 Debates relative to the [Day XXI,
ment propofed, I am fure it will be too dear-
ly purchafcd by this Country, for the Ex-
pencc; can never be defrayed but by a Tax
upon Land, and, as this Country is circum-
ftanced, a Tax upon Land muil be its Ruin.
I, therefore, iliall give my Vote for the A-
mendment, that we may, at all Events, fecure
to ourfelves the Power of obje(5ling to thofe
Parts of the Eftabndiment which (hall ap-
pear to be Grievances, and, from which, not-
withftanding what has been fuggefted to the
contrary, many Gentlemen think we {hall be
precluded, if the Refolution palTes in its pre-
fent Form,
M-j-r//^— 5-.
After making feveral Calculations, and
confidering the Eftablifhment in all its Bran-
ches, concluded, that the additional Pay of the
Officers, deducting the Half-pay, which they
muft have received, if they had been difmif-
fed, did not amount to more than 4000/. a
Year. He faid, that the honourable Gentle-
man, who fpoke laft, had infinuated that fome
Regiments were Favourites : Favourites, he
faid, was an opprobrious Name, becaufe it
had been generally applied to thofe who did
not
Day XXL] Affairs of Iri.laud, 391
not deferve Favour ; but that we fliould con^
lider whofe Favourite a Perlbn was before we
determined tlie Senfe of the Word j to be the
Favourite of a refpedlable Charader, faid he,
certainly implies Merit ; and thefe Regiments
are the Favourites of the Public, the moft re-
fpedable Character upon Earth j thefe Regi-
ments moil: glorioufly diftingullhed them-
felves in the Service of their Country, on the
Plains of Minde?!, and have purchafed the
Favour of their Country with their Blood;
the Word Favourite, therefore, can be no
Difgrace to them, nor to favour them a Dif-
grace to us. The honourable Gentlemen, he
alfo obferved, had hinted that heavy Horfe
were not ufeful in Proportion to their Ex-
pence ; but this, he faid, he apprehended not
to be univerfally, though, perhaps, generally
true ; becaufe the heavy Horfe, by their
Weight, performed fuch Service at Marbourg^
as no other Troops could perform. In an-
fwer to what had been alledged, with Refpedt
to the Increafe of Minifterial Influence,
by the Increafe of Regiments on the Efta-
blifliment, he obferved, that the Influence
ariling from the Dependance and Expedatiou
,Gf Officers upon Half- pay, would be much
Cc 3 greater,
392 Debates relative to the [Day XXI,
greater, and, for thefe Reafons, he declared
himfelf againft the Amendment.
Mr H— T*— , got up to anfwer Mr 5—,
but Mr H — H—^ the P. S. having been up
before him, he fat down.
Mr H then repeated, and inforced the
Arguments that had been before urged in fa-
vour of the Nectfiity and Propriety of the
prefent Civil and MiUtaryEuabU(hments ; and
he added, that there was not a Kingdom in
the World that had leis Reafon to complain
of public Taxes, and that its Difadvantages,
with Refped: to Trade, arofe rather from the
Extravagance and Folly of its Inhabitants,than
from any Reftraints that were impofed by
Government; no check could be pretended he
faid, except upon the Manufad:ures of Wool-
len and Silk ; and this would be attended
with no National Difadvantage, if the Na-
tives would contribute to the homeConfump-
tion of thefe Manufaiflures, by wearing them
themfelves; which a fen felefs Vanity prevent-
ed them from doing, at the fame Time that
they were clamouring againft Government,
upon Pretence that the Manufadories, thus
languifliing by their own Folly, were not en-
coura-
Day XXI.] j^ffairs of Ireland. 393
couraged : He added, that Ireland fuffered
much more from the Condud: of its Inhabi-
tants, by wearing foreign Manufadtures, and
fpending their Money in another Country,
than by any Demands of Government ; and
that whatever Outcry had been made againfh
the Supplies, as exorbitant and oppreflive,
it was certain that no Neceffary of Life had
yet been taxed ; and that,even the Superfluities
of Life, were enjoyed upon eafier Terms in
Ireland^ than eifewhere. He obferved, that
Money was never fcarce, where Intereft was
low ; and that, in Ireland^ Money might be
had, upon pubUc Security, at four^<?r Cent.
and upon private Security at four and an half.
He therefore concluded, that the vehement
Complaints of Grievances, arifing from the
Supplies granted to Government, were with-
out Foundation j and diredly contradided by
the general Condud: of the People ; that they
could anfwer no End but the fomenting caufe-
lefs Difcontent at Home, and encouraging
hoftile Attempts from abroad ; and that the
moft effediual Way of cultivating the Arts of
Peace, and putting a Stop to the licentious
Riots of the lower Clafs of People, was to con-
cur unanimoufly in the Support of Govern-
ment and the Laws.
C c 4 Mr
94 Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
Mr H — F — then got up^ and proceeded
to anfwer Major JV-l^ B — , to the following
Effed :
Mr n- F-,
\ fhall not attempt, Sir, to follow the ho-
nourable Gentleman below me, on the Floor,
from Plain to Plain, and from Battle to Battle^
in Order to difcover which of our Regimentsi
diftinguifhed themfelves moft ; for I have al-
ways underflood, that, during the lafl War,
all the Britijh Forces behaved lo as equally
to deferve the AfFe6tion and Efteem of their
Country. I therefore, Sir, fee no Reafon to
change my Opinion, that it was a very cruel
and injurious Meafure to break one Company,
in each of the old Regiments, to make room
for new Corps : The old Corps had a Right
to be continued by their Seniority and Situa-
tion^ according to all Rules of Juftice, and by
their Experience and habitual Service, accord-
ing to all Rules of Prudence : Their Difmiffi-
on> Sirj was repugnant to the very Conditions
upon which they held their Ports, and con-
trary to the known and eflablifhed Rules of
all the Countries in the World. Some of
the new Regiments that were thus eftabliflied,
upoq
Day XXi.] Affairs of Ireland. 395
upon the Ruins of the old, had no Service to
plead J and others were kept on Foot, contrary
to the very Conditions under which they were
railed, for they were railed only during the
War, or for a certain Time. The Injury,
therefore, of continuing thefe, and difbanding
the Veterans, was double ; the Veteran, the
Soldier I mean, for they are Men as well as
their Officers, were, by long military Service,
difqualified for any other j and the new Men,
who were not perfectly broken to military
Subordination and Fatigue, wifhed to obtain
their Difcharge j fo that we have contrived our
Difmiffion and Eftablifhment in fuch a Mah-
ner, as to puniih equally thofe whom we dif-
band, and thofe whom we keep on foot, to
fay nothing of the Injury done to the Public.
The honourable Gentleman, Sir, has amufed
us with very minute and elaborate Calculati-
ons, but, I am of Opinion, they will convince
very few that the Increafe of our Eftablifli-
ment, with Refpeft to our Officers, amounts
to no more than 4000 /. We have heard
many Diftindions concerning the Sum of
1 1 1,0.00 /. which the prefent Military Ellab-
iifhment is allowed to exceed the Ertablifh-
pent immediately fubfequent to the laft War j
vj {hall not enquire, Sir, into what Parts this
Sum
39^ Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
Sum may be divided, or examine the feveral
Modes, Times, and Purpofes, of laying it
on ; all that I think neceffiry to obferve is,
that it is a neat Increafe of our Expence, and
that it is beyond our Ability to pay, which,
I think, is an infuperable Objcdlion againft it.
The honourable and learned Gentleman who
fpoke lad, has, indeed, inferred our pecuniary
Ability from the low Interefl of Money j but
though, in general, this Inference may be
juft, it is not fo with Relpedt to us, and, I
think, I can eafily {hew that the low Intereft
of Money in Ireland^ is the Effedt of Poverty,
not of Wealth : Our Securities are generally
bad, and our Trade is under great Reftraints
and Difcouragements j the few, therefore,
who have Money to lend, are at a Lofs how
to employ it. As we are an Ifland governed
by our own Laws, and not connected with o-
ther Stages in commercial Intereft, we are (fill
defirous of laying out our Money at Home,
and, as good Security is rare, we are tempted
to lend our Money on fuch Security, when it
can be found at a low Intereft, not bocaufe
Money is plenty among us, but becaufe we
have no Opportunity ofdifpofing of it better;
and, if the honourable Gentleman will recol-
lect, I am fure he muft acknowledge, that,
except
Day XXI. J Jffairs of Ireland. 397
except on public Security, and fuch private
Security as is very rare, Pvloney is not to be
had here for lefs than iix per Ce?U. befides
Fees to Lawyers, and Attornies, in the very
Adt of borrowing. The honourable Gentle-
man has alfo mentioned the Cheapnefs of
Provilions, and Labour, as another Inftance
of our Wealth j but the Cheapnefs of Provi-
iions and Labour, proves, to Demonftration,
that the comparative Value of Money is high,
and the comparative Value of Money can ne-
ver be high, but where it is fcarce : Befides,
Sir, Provifions and Labour are not cheap in a
particular Country, in Proportion as they coft
lefs Money, than in another Country; they
are cheap and dear only with Refped: to the
Proportion their Value bears to the Value of
Money, whatever it is. If we look into our
ancient Annals, we fliall find that there was
a Time when a whole Sheep was fold for a
Shilling, but it does not follow that Mutton
was then cheaper than it is now j for it will
be found that a Shilling was of the fame Va-
lue then as the Sum is that will purchafe a
Sheep now: If this is confidered, it will feem
no Paradox, that though Provifions and Labour
may be procured here for lefs Money than in
another Country, yet they are equally dear ;
and
5^8 Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
and if we judge of the Number that cann»t
procure the Provilions that the honourable
Gentleman has fuppofed to be cheap, we
inuft conclude that they are much dearer : I
(hall therefore only delire the honourable
Gentleman, and every other Member of this
Houfe, to recoiled: the Situation of two
Millions and a halfj of the three Millions of
Inhabitants which this Country is fuppofed to
contain, and then lay their Hands upon their
Heart?, and declare whether their Country is
rich or poor. As to the Riots of the lower
Clafs of People, which, it muft be confefTed,
have been too frequent, I think the molt ef-
fedual Way of preventing them, would be
to avoid the Subllitution of real Evils in the
Place of thofe imaginary ones that have milled
them ; for, though we have no Realbn to de^
fpair of quieting their Minds, when it may be
done by diflipating an lilufion, yet there will
be little room for Plope, when it can be done
only by concealing a Reality.
Mr T'— Le H— faid, that he thought it
very improper to anticipate a Debate, which
could properly come on only upon an En-
quiry into the Grievance fuppofed to arife
from the Eftablifliment, which was not the
Subjeiflt
Day XXL] ylfairsoflR-ELAiiD. 399
Subjed; of the Day ; and, therefore, he
fliould only fay, that, in his Opinion, the A-
mendment ought to be admitted, as it feemed
to be the prevailing Opinion, that the Mo"
tion, as it now flood, would preclude fuch an
Enquiry, which, he was perfuaded, the ho-
nourable Gentleman did not intend : He ad-
ded, that he thought the Word neccjfary
could be no Slur upon their Proceedings, but
that they greatly expofed themfelves to Cen-r
fure, by obje<fting to fo reafonable a Word.
Mr P — T— , the A. G. fliid, that, in that
Houfe, he never coniidered himfelf as a Ser-
vant to the Crown, being fenfible that every
Service to the Crown was a Service to the
Public, their Interefls being infeparably united.
It was true, he faid, that it fell to his Share, in
Virtue of his Employment, to propofe tlie
Eftablifliment, and made no Doubt but that
his honourable Friend, who propofed the A-
mendment, would, upon RecoUedion, be of
Opinion, that every proper Enquiry might be
made, if the Motion fhould pafs without A-
mendment, and, therefore, that he would not
infift upon the Motion for Amendment,
which, if agreed to, would be contrary to the
immemorial Pradice of that Houfe.
Mr
4oa Debates relative to the [Day XXI.
Mr E— S— P— faid, he hoped he had
faid notliing from which his honourable and
worthy Friend could infer that he meant to
recede from his Opinion, or his Purpofe ; and,
therefore, inlifted on the Queflion for the A-
mendment, adding, that, if it pafTed in the
Negative, he would trouble the Houfe no
more, as he (hould be convinced it would be
to no Purpofe.
The Queftion Was then put, and it paffed
agai?ift the Amendment, 122 againft 74.
After this, many Petitions, which had
been referred to the Committee of Supplies,
in Favour of new Works, were rejed:ed, it
being alledged that confiderable Sums were
neceilary for carrying on Works already be-
gun, which would otherwife be abfolutely
loft to the Public, and that the Finances of
the Country would not admit of the large
Grants that were follicited to begin others :
But, notwithftanding this, a Petition for an
Aid of 4000 /. to make the River Bandon
navigable, was preferred, and granted, upon
the Qncftion, by a fmall Majority.
Sir
Day XXL] Affairs of Ireland. 401
Sir A — A — then faid, that he had a Pe-
tition in his Hand, for an Aid of 4000 /. to
make a River near Armagh navigable, but
that, being convinced by what had been juft
faid, he would withdraw it, notwithftanding
a Petition of the fame Kind had been juft
granted ; upon which many Gentlemen faid,
that they would oppofe the Refolution of the
Committee with Refped; to that Petition in
the Houfe, and with Refped: to the granting
pecuniary Aids for any new Work,
Mr E — 6* — P — offered a Refolution to
the Committee, that 8000 /. fliould be depo-
iited in Truft with the Dublin Society, or any
other Body of Men, that fliould be thought
proper, to be diftributed in Premiums for the
Encouragement of feveral Manufactories, ad-
ding, that he thought himfelf under an indif-
penfible Neceffity of urging this Depofit, as
he was the Means of preventing Parliamen-
tary Aid from being granted to particular Per-
fons, upon Petitions, and as the Houfe had ex-
prelTcd its Approbation of encouraging Arts
and Manufadures in this Way.
The R— t H-ble Mr A— ikf— faid, that,
in
^b2 Dtbdtes ?'elathe to the [Day XXL
in his Opinion, this Motion fl^iould be defer-
red till all other Grants, which the Commit-
tee (liould approve, ihould be made, becaufe
it Vv'ould then appear, whether fuch a Sum
could be fpared for that Ufe.
Mr P — replied, that his Health would not
permit him to flay till all the Grants were
made, and earneftly recommended the Refo-
lution to the Care of the Hou .- in his Ab-
fence J upon which Mr M — ,'the Chairman,
promifed that he would give a proper Atten-^
tion to it.
Sir /F — O — recommended a Petition fof
an Aid of 2,600 /. to repair the Archiepifco*
prd and Parochial Church of CaJJjell^ the Pari-*
Ihioners not being able to repair it thcmfelves.
The H— ble Mr B— M— objeded to it,
as a bad Precedent, and faid it would encou*
rage Parifliioners to fuffer their Churches to
run out of Repair, in Hopes of Parliamentary
Aid.
Sir W— O— replied, that if the Afiiftance
of Parliament (hould be thus abufed, the E-
vil would be lefs than a public Negledt of an
Objea:
Day XXL] Affairs of Ireland. 403
Obje<fl immediately conneded with Religion,
and eflential to the public Exercife of it ; and
that the Archiepifcopal Church, once a fpleh-
did and fpacious Edifice, was now in fo rui-
nous a Condition, that the Archbishop and
his Clergy aflembled for divine Worship in a
Barn 5 he added, that while the Mafs-Houfes
in many Places made a better Appearance
than the Churches, the People, who could
not be fuppofed to extract the Efientials
from the external Circum ft ances of Religion,
would be in Danger of Sedudiofi, by the Arts
of Priefts and Miffionaries, who were watch-
ful to improve every Incident to their Advan-
tage : As a Proof of the EiFcdt that a proper
Regard to the Rituais of Religion produces
on the Mind, he t-old a Story of a Gentleman
di Ireland^ who, having carried his Servant
with hrm into Flanders^ and taken him to
high Mj^ at a great Church, afked him, as
they were coming out, what he thought of
tlie Church and t|>e Ceremony ? ^ T^hink,
*' Sir, fays the Fell<;>w, why I think I never
** iaw God Almighty ferved like a Gentlemaa
*' before."
An Amendment wa« then made in the
Motion,, by infcrting 1000/. inftead of 2,600/,
D d and
404. Debates relative to the [D A y XXI*
and the Committee refolved that that Sum
Should be granted.
Many other Sums were alfo grants, as it
was faid, in Confequence of a Determinatioa
previoufly made, notwithftanding all the Ob-
jecflions that could be urged againft it j the
Committee being fmall, and it growing late^
Mr W — B — faid, that it feemed to him that
Time was more precious than Money, and
that as he perceived it was to r^o Purpofe to
oppofe the Grants of Money for particular
Purpofes, he moved, that the Committee
fliould report that they had made fome Pro-
grefs, and that they fliould have Leave to fit
aeain.
Dr L — feconded Mr B — , and faid, that
Health fliould no more be laviflied by late
Hours, than Money by Jobbs j and the Mo-
tion being put, was agreed to.
The Speaker then refuming the Chair, the
Report was made accordingly) and it was re-
folved that the Houfe would, next Monday
Morning, refolve itfelf into a Committee, to
confider farther of the Supplies, and the Lord
Lieutenant's Speech,
Tbe End of V O L. L
The Gentleman luho took thefe Debates, being in a dijlatit
Part of the Continent luhile they ixiere printing, a Speech
of the R. H. G. H. n\)hich ivill be found in p. 640, ^as,
by mjlake, imputed to J. H. H. the P. S. Jnd the fol-
io-wing Errors alfo efcaped the Prefs, ifjhich the Reader is
reqttejled to correal.
Page I, for March 10, read OBoher ii.
37, line laft but one, inftead of for life, read at Will,
51. line I. for Mr R. F. read Mr R. Fitz.
59. line I. for keep, read, help.
62. line 7. for prevented, it\d, pretended.
68. line 13. for the, read, a.
70. line 13. ioT opinions, read, opinion,
71. line 7. for precept, read, precepts.
79. line lo. for Charity, read, Chriftianity.
95. line 16. iov Wrong, read, no Wrong.
120. line 4. for Examination, read, Examinations.
136. line I. for R. F, read R. Fitz.
143. line laft but one, for the R.H. read, the H.
172. line ao. for T. H. read W. H.
j8o. ad paragraph, line i, for ivas, read, is. line 3,'
for ivas, read, is. line 4. ibr ^ai;^, read gi-ve-s,
line 5. for luere, read, ^rf.
185. line laft but one, for dear, read, ^co;/.
202. line the laft, for Mr R. read Mr W. B.
208. line 4, for Command, read, Commifions.
a2i. line 23. ior Lavjs of Kingdom, read, £a7u/ o/' the
Kingdom.
231. line 19. ioT facred, re^d, fecure.
254. line 4. for /o, read, //;.
308. line 6. for Mr yf. M. read, the R. H. Mr A. M.
328. line 12. for fet, re^d, fat.
340. line 8. for Mr A. M. read Mr A. M.
392. line 3. for //. 7". read, H. F.
427. line 16, for Brandon, read, Bandon.
429. line 14. for Rt H— ble W. B. read Rt H— bleS. B,
448, line laft, for H. T. read, /i'. f.
475. line 12. for Ferois, read, AVm.
476. line 3. for f^erois, read, /''/m.
499. line 15. for brufi/h, read, BrilijT).
523. line 2. for /f. />. read, W. C.
640. line 40. for J. H. H. the P. S. read, the "R.U.C.FU
662. line 5. for non refdenced, read, tion reftdent.
702. line 4. for I he Serjeant, lead, of the Ser-vant.
737. line 13. for Deliberation, le^d, De/iOerafivni.
I
y