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1 DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE 
 
 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY 
 
 ADVISORY CONFERENCE ON THE SUBJECT 
 OF MAKING PASSENGER VESSELS MORE 
 SECURE FROM DESTRUCTION BY FIRE 
 
 * 
 
 HELD IN THE 
 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE 
 WASHINGTON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 3, 1916 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1916 
 
LIST OF PERSONS WHO ATTENDED THE ADVISORY CONFERENCE. 
 
 Hon. William C. Redfield, Secretary of Commerce (presiding). 
 
 Hon. Edwin F. Sweet, Assistant Secretary of Commerce. 
 
 Mr. E. C. Gillette, Superintendent of Naval Construction, Bureau of Lighthouses^ 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 N. Sumner Myrick, Esq., Chamber of Commerce of the United States, Washington,. 
 D. C. 
 
 Hon. William B. Wilson, Secretary of Labor. 
 
 Mr. James L. Ackerson, Naval Constructor, Navy Department, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Samuel Gompers, President, American Federation of Labor, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Andrew Furuseth, President, Seamen's Union, San Francisco, Cal. 
 
 Mr. A. W. Goodrich, Goodrich Transit Co., Chicago, 111.. 
 
 Mr. WiLLARD Thompson, Vice President and General Manager, B. C. & A. and M. D. 
 & V. R. R. Cos., Baltimore, Md, 
 
 Mr. D. J. Callahan, Washington & Norfolk Steamboat Co., Washington, D. C. 
 
 Capt. A. N. McGray, Neptune Association, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. F. L. Du Bosque, Assistant Engineer, Pennsylvania Railroad Co., New York, 
 N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Charles P. Benns, Consulting Engineer, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Stevenson Taylor, President, American Bureau of Shipping, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. William A. Dobson, Naval Architect, The William Cramp & Son Ship & Engine 
 Building Co. , Philadelphia, Pa. 
 
 Mr. Frank E. Kirby, Naval Architect, Detroit, Mich. 
 
 Mr. Henry Leyhe, Eagle Packet Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 Mr. T. F. Newman, C. & B. Transit Co., Cleveland, Ohio. 
 
 Mr, Warren T. Berry, Superintendent of Marine Construction, New England Steam- 
 ship Co., Newport, R. I. 
 
 Mr. E. E. Olcott, Vice President and General Manager, Hudson River Day Line, 
 New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Henry A. Magoun, Vice President, New York Shipbuilding Co., Camden, N. J. 
 
 Mr. William T. Donnelly, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. George A. White, Assistant General Manager, Hudson River Day Line, New 
 York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. E. C. Bennett, Naval Architect, Fore River Shipbuilding Corporation, Quincy, 
 Mass. 
 
 Mr. Edward F. Croker, Ex Chief, New York Fire Department, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. William Gate wood, Naval Architect, Newport News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock 
 Co., Newport News, Va. 
 
 Mr. C. H. Phinney, Secretary Inspection Department, Factory Mutual Fire Insurance 
 Cos., Boston, Mass. 
 
 Mr. T. H. S. Cone, Aero Fire Alarm Co., New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Frederic C. Mott, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. James French, Chief Surveyor, Lloyd's Register of Shipping, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Robert V. La Dow, Dahlstrom Metallic Door Co. (Jamestown, N. Y.), Washing- 
 ton, D. C. 
 
 Capt. W. A. Blair, General Manager, Northern Steamboat Co., Davenport, Iowa. 
 
 Mr, Elliot H. Goodwin, Secretary, Chamber of Commerce of the United States, 
 Washington, D, C. 
 
 Mr. P. G. Bulloch, Art Metal Construction Co., Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Paul G. Brock, Art Metal Construction Co., Washington, D. C. 
 
 Capt. G. W. Harney, Supervising Inspector, Third District, United States Steamboat- 
 Inspection Service, Norfolk, Va. 
 
 Mr. E. H. Duff, American Steamship Association, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. J, Donald Pryor, General Fire Extinguisher Co., Providence, R. I. 
 
 Gen. George Uhler, Supervising Inspector General, Steamboat-Inspection Service, 
 Department of Commerce. , 
 
 (DOC. COLUi 
 

 ADVISORY CONFERENCE ON THE SUBJECT OF 
 MAKING PASSENGER VESSELS MORE SECURE 
 FROM DESTRUCTION BY FIRE. 
 
 HELD IN THE OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE WASHING. 
 TON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 3, 1916. ' ^achixni^ 
 
 MORNING SESSION (10 O'CLOCK). 
 
 The Secretary. Gentlemen, it is hardly necessary to ask an as- 
 sembly ol this kmd to come to order. I am sorry we have not a beauti- 
 ful reception hall or an auditorium in which to receive you If we 
 were to go out to the Bureau of Standards, we could do it in some fit 
 style, but here I can only say that the work of the Department has 
 grown so rapidly that my good associate, Mr. Sweet, has been obliged 
 to ^ive up his office to clerks and we have no room other than this 
 available m this building where we can meet. I hope another year 
 we may be placed so that we can receive you more comfortably. 
 
 1 his is a conference called without any plan at all. We have no 
 program. Our purpose is merely to lay before you the reasons which 
 lead us to ask you to be here and then to ask you to help the Depart- 
 ment out of your experience and training to do whatever circum- 
 stances may suggest to you. 
 
 We keep a record of every accident that occurs to vessels. They 
 come over my desk and they are each of them separately examined 
 into by me, so far as it is possible to do so. One of the things which 
 came to my notice many months ago was the fact that the most fre- 
 quent cause of disaster to the vessels over which we have to exercise 
 supervision is fire— imaccountable fires, very largely. The expe- 
 rience which we thus have with the merchant vessels is matched in a 
 measure by experience with the hundred and odd vessels which we 
 operate ourselves. We have one fine ship which has been on fire four 
 times. The last time was a week ago last Saturday morning when I 
 was on board of her myseK. 
 
 +1.^ ^®.®^,K^^% remind you of what has happened. The disaster to 
 the T%voh\n recent months, when she was burned to an empty shell 
 IS stiil fresh in the minds of most of you. We have here a record of 63 
 vessels more or less completely destroyed by fire within two years, 
 naany of them quite small, most of them when laid up, possibly some 
 of them not wholly disconnected with the question of insurance— we 
 don t know ; some of them, unfortunately, vessels carrying a consid- 
 erable number of passengers, and many of them vessels in commission, 
 it was not our thought to-day to deal so much with the question of 
 care, of nianagement, for on that we have fairly adequate authority 
 now, and I am glad to say that Congress has just given us 31 additional 
 
 (3) 
 
 051 
 
inspectors for the purpose of a more thorough watch over that par- 
 ticular phase of the matter. But the question of construction, the 
 question of equipment, is one where we have not, we think, either the 
 detailed knowleage or the authority of law to deal with as adequately, 
 perhaps, as we ought. Nor is it necessarily our purpose as a result of 
 this conference to ask for added lawful authority. We have no plan. 
 What we want to do is to be informed, to learn, to be instructed as to 
 what is wise and what is practicable. There is not one of us, I am 
 sure, who wants to have his wife and child burned to death. There 
 is not one of us who wants to have any other man's wife and child 
 either put to death or put in jeopardy. We want to do what is prac- 
 ticable. I very strongly felt, and Gen. Uhler felt as I did, and a very 
 happy suggestion from Mr. Myrick, of the committee of the Chamber 
 of Commerce of the United States on the Steamboat-Inspection Serv- 
 ice, came at the same time to bring the matter to a focus, that we 
 ought at least to have the advice of thoughtful and experienced men 
 on the whole problem presented by the danger to thousands of people, 
 largely women and children, and to the crews of vessels, often con- 
 fined in spaces from which exit is not always easy and rapid. We 
 ought to have the advice of thoughtful men as to what is practicable, 
 if anything, commercially, economically, soundly, in dealing with this 
 matter. 
 
 So there are no preconceived notions nor purposes nor plans. We 
 are here and have asked you to be here that we might learn. I think, 
 inasmuch as the first 'material contribution to this matter in our 
 thought came from Mr. Myrick, I will ask him if he will step forward 
 and express his views to the conferees. 
 
 I want to add a word. Perhaps you may not all know my friend 
 and colleague. Secretary Wilson, Secretary of Labor, who has come 
 here by invitation to hear, as I am present to hear, and learn what 
 may be developed. 
 
 STATEMENT OF N. SUMNER MYRICK, ESQ., SPECIAL COUNSEL OF 
 THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF THE UNITED STATES, WASH- 
 INGTON, D. C. 
 
 Gentlemen, I take the kindness of the Secretary in calling upon 
 me to speak to you thus early in the session, if indeed I should have 
 been invited at all, as a mark of his confidence, perhaps, in the result 
 of the investigation which it has been my good fortune to make on 
 behalf of the Chamber of Commerce of the United States of the 
 Steamboat-Inspection Service. Perhaps I ought to refer briefly to 
 my qualifications as an investigator before saying anything further. 
 I was bom at a seaport. My childhood and early life were spent 
 about ships and steamboats, fishermen, etc., and all mv life I nave 
 been very intimately connected with the matters in wnich you are 
 interested. When I began the investigation, which I have just con- 
 cluded, my thought was very early directed to this question of fire 
 protection on passenger steamboats. I have reached certain con- 
 clusions which, by the way, I am not going to express at this time 
 because it is quite unnecessary that I shomd; but I feel and for a 
 long time have felt that something should be done to rectify mistakes 
 of construction in respect of fire resistance that have characterized 
 the steamboat building of the past. 
 
I also feel that it would be eminently unwise, not to say unfair, to 
 require steamboat men to make radical changes in existing vessels 
 that might and probably would involve large expenditure of money, 
 because the law and public sentiment have encouraged the con- 
 struction of these vessels of material and in design as they now exist. 
 I do feel, however, that something can be done by intelligent coopera- 
 tion among steamboat men, designers, and builders to lessen very 
 greatly the fire hazard of steamboats hereafter constructed, and 
 modify to some extent the fire hazard of those now in service. It 
 was this belief or feeling that led to my suggesting to the Secretary, 
 as he has pointed out, the conference which we are holding here 
 to-day. 
 
 I have only two or three ideas to express. One is that this con- 
 ference ought to afford opportunity for individual views upon the 
 subject in a town-meeting way, and that at the conclusion of the 
 conference a committee should be appointed to take this whole matter 
 under consideration, give it though tiul attention, and report at some 
 time in the future their conclusions. Having so reported, the con- 
 clusions should be, so far as practicable, embodied in the law, for 
 various reasons, and among them this: I had the pleasure of visiting 
 in Chicago a comparatively new steel vessel, a splendid type of boat 
 for the service in which she is engaged. I said to the gentleman 
 who showed me over the boat: ^'You have spent a great deal of 
 money on this ship ; turned out a safe and beautiful craft. Is it fair 
 that I should be able to go down the Lake somewhere, pick up a 
 rattletrap, unsafe boat, bring her here and run her in competition 
 with you, or should the law be so framed that everyone would be put 
 upon an equal basis, an equal footing?" That is one reason why I 
 think that whatever conclusions this committee, if it is appointed, 
 arrives at should be put into the form of law, so far as may be practi- 
 cable. 
 
 I make the further suggestion in reference to the composition of 
 the committee, that it be not composed entirely of steamboat men, 
 but that a fair proportion of steamboat men, a certain number of 
 men from the construction department of the Navy, and one or two 
 men outside any branch of the Government be appointed. I should 
 very much hope that Dr. Stratton, of the Bureau of Standards, be 
 one of the committee — ^not that he would contribute anything so far 
 as the form of construction is concerned, although he might oe able 
 to do that — ^but that he would be able to make valuable suggestions 
 as to the material that could be employed in the construction of 
 future steamboats. 
 
 One fact that has been impressed upon my mind during the progress 
 of my investigation is this, that when our modem passenger ships 
 take fire they burn with incredible rapidity, as the records show; 
 so rapidly that, in most cases, it has been impossible to launch all the 
 boats. While it is not practicable, I believe, to build an entirely 
 fireproof vessel — that is to say, out of any material with which any of 
 us are familiar at this time — I do believe it is practicable so to build 
 these boats that the progress of a fire would be so retarded that the 
 passengers would have a chance for their lives. If it were worth 
 while, I could give you a ^ood many illustrations of the burning of 
 vessels that would emphasize the point that I am now making. 
 
I think, Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, that this is substantially all 
 that I have to say at this time. I very much hope that something 
 will come of this conference, and I believe that if you gentlemen 
 approach the subject with a determination to do something, rather 
 than with the feeling that it is desirable from your point of view 
 to get by as easily as possible, something substantial and well worth 
 whSc will be accomplished. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you, Mr. Myrick. 
 
 In pursuing the discussion may I ask that each gentleman who may 
 have anything to say will kindly give his name to the stenographer 
 as he speaks in order that the record may be clear. If those who have 
 not already given their names to the stenographer or their business 
 cards will kindly do so before we adjourn, it will serve to make the 
 record more complete. 
 
 I want to add merely to what Mr. Myrick has said a suggestion 
 as to a principle which seems to me to have soundness. The late 
 Edwin Atkinson, of Boston, had to deal, as I am sure you know, with 
 the most serious fire problem in the country, the problem presented 
 by the cotton mill. He dealt with it by a philosophy which by some 
 at the time was thought very unreasonable. He laid down three 
 lilies for fire protection as the president of a fire insurance company. 
 The first rule was that no fire had any business to happen. The 
 second rule was that if a fire did happen, it had no business to extend 
 very far. And the third rule was that if it did extend very far, it 
 ought to be put out. In his point of view, fire extinguishmg was 
 the last and not the first thing to be looked at. The absolute pre- 
 vention of fires was the first thing, and the restriction of them by 
 proper construction was the second. 
 
 I think it is a matter of history familiar to you all with what extraor- 
 dinary success that policy has worked out, so that the most inflammable 
 of aU industrial plants is that which has the smallest record of fire. 
 
 I think there is wisdom in the principle. Now the field is open. 
 We think something should be done. What, we do not yet know, and 
 we welcome suggestions from any of you on the subject as you see it. 
 
 Mr. Taylor, as president of the American Bureau of Shipping, per- 
 haps you might speak to us. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. STEVENSON TAYLOR, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN 
 BUREAU OF SHIPPING, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, I do not know that I have anything to say on this 
 subject more than that in my experience we have endeavored to add 
 the very things that you and Mr. Myrick have outlined, and judging 
 from results we have done so with considerable success. 
 
 It goes without saying that a fire should not occur at aU, and the 
 other corollaries of Mr. Atkinson s law foUow as a matter of course. 
 On the other hand, there is the practical side of this question that 
 must be considered. It is possible to build an unsinkable boat; 
 it is quite possible to build a boat that can not be destroyed by fire ; 
 but in going to these extremes it is also possible to build boats that 
 will not be of any service to anyone. 
 
 I read between the lines that it is your endeavor, Mr. Secretarv, 
 and I know it is the endeavor of Mr. Myrick, that something should 
 be done toward making vessels safer, particularly from danger by 
 fire; something that is reasonable, to use the word made so expressive 
 
by the United States Supreme Court. I can assure you so far as my 
 rather full acquaintance with shipbuilders and shipowners goes, that 
 all of them will be very glad to do whatever can be done to make 
 lives as well as property safer on board of their vessels. 
 
 The difficulty will be to make general rules that will cover all cases, 
 for the variety in the types of boats used in the business of this 
 country is exceedingly great. Take the western-river boats, for 
 example. They must naturally be built particularly Hght and of 
 peculiar construction throughout on account of the lack of water at 
 times to float these boats; and I may say there is no better exhibition 
 of engineering skill than is shown in meeting the requirements of 
 the western-river boats. Now, seagoing, Sound, Lake, and eastern- 
 river boats all differ materially from the western-river boats and as 
 materially from each other, each type having a style and character 
 of its own. No general rules can be formulated to govern them all. 
 
 There are many things that can be done to make boats sa-fer against 
 fire. Some of us have tried very faithfully to do these things. Some 
 of the gentlemen in this room I know have given many hours of serious 
 thought, and others of them have spent a great deal of money to 
 produce the desired result, and they feel as I do that the results show 
 the advantage of their investigations and their efforts to carry out 
 the desires expressed by you. 
 
 The suggestion of Mr. Myrick that a committee should be appointed 
 is a particularly good one, for this assembly is like a town meeting, 
 and if every man here had his say in full upon this subject, we would 
 probably get nowhere; there would be such a diversity of ideas and 
 opinions as to what would be the best thing to do. 
 
 We are naturally inclined to look at any question from our own 
 personal standpoint. I know what is good for the Long Island Sound 
 boats, but I am not quite sure that I know what is good for a western- 
 river boat. I could prescribe something for the steamers with which 
 I am familiar, but could not prescribe so well for others. 
 
 I may refer in a general way to the burning and reconstruction 
 of the steamer Plymouth of the well-known Fall River Line. This 
 line has had but two boats burned in its career of 69 years. Both of 
 these, the Bristol and the Plymouth, were burned while laid up at 
 the wharf in Newport with no passengers and but few others on 
 board. The Plymouth had but two watchmen, each of whom had 
 passed the place on fire at least once and had not noticed or reported 
 it. Evidently they were only intent on punching the watchman's 
 clock, which proved what I have said as to their passing the place 
 without noticing the fire. 
 
 When we started to rebuild the Plymouth the question of making 
 her fireproof was uppermost and we went into the matter very care- 
 fully. We found that the joiner work built as usual weighed 440 
 tons and the same built of steel would weigh 830 tons. As this 
 additional weight would cause an increase of about 14 inches in the 
 draft of water, setting aside other serious considerations, it is evident 
 that such a reconstruction was absolutely impracticable. For 
 oxample, seven-eighths-inch white pine is used for joiner decks and a 
 steel deck of equal weight would be but one-sixteenth inch thick. 
 
 The problems and difficulties encountered in building a passenger 
 boat like those of the Fall River Line are quite different from those 
 of a simple ferryboat. It has taken many years to reach the present 
 
8 
 
 state of development, for which the minds of many men are respon- 
 sible. The results of construction and care in operation have been 
 most remarkable. It is quite proper for me to say here that during 
 the 69 years continuous running of the Fall River Line but one pas- 
 senger has lost his life, and that by being struck in a collision in a 
 thick fog. 
 
 I can also truly say, after 35 years of experience with the Sound 
 lines, that the management has always desired the best in everything, 
 the matter of cost being secondary. 
 
 When the reconstruction of the Plymouth was commenced, we 
 tried to make her safer and better than before. One of the im- 
 
 Erovements that occurred to me was the placing of two cross-fire 
 ulkheads, with doors across the passages in the saloon at the ends 
 of the engine and boiler inclosures — doors hke those used in cotton 
 mills, that could be closed in case of fire. These doors are not 
 absolutely fireproof, but sufficiently so to act as a fire deterrent, and 
 dividing as they would the length of the boat in three parts, there 
 would not be quite the same likelihood of the flames sweeping at 
 once the entire length of the boat. 
 
 The question of freight must also be taken into consideration, for 
 freight must be carried. If a conflagration took place amidst the 
 freight, even an entire steel structure would not stand, and the result, 
 as shown in many instances of fire in steel store or warehouses, would 
 be destruction. 
 
 So the next improvement was to cover the interior of the freight 
 space with sheet steel fastened closely to stanchions, facing, carlins, 
 and imderside of deck over the freight without air space. 
 
 Then, growing out of my own experience in shops, I put fire 
 sprinklers all over the boat, following the first system of sprinklers 
 placed by me on the freighter Pequonnock. 
 
 When we built the Massachusetts, Bunker Hill, and Old Colony in 
 1906, and the Commonwealth in 1908, we used the same precautions 
 that were used on the Plymouth. 
 
 We also used the same system of fire-pump discharges that we had 
 used on the Puritan in 1889, that of having three or four discharges 
 separated at the pump, carrying the lines forward, amidship, and aft 
 so that a fire occurring near one of the fines and possibly destroying 
 a fine would not entirely incapacitate the pump, for the pressure 
 could still be kept up on all of tne other lines. 
 
 For the Commonwealth we also considered wood that had been 
 chemically made fireproof, but found this wood was not satisfactory. 
 Since that time there have been other materials devised in the way 
 of compo and asbestos board such as has been used to reduce the 
 fire risk on the steamer Washington Irving by my friend, Mr. Olcott, 
 who is present. 
 
 I need not call attention to the need of constant and thorough 
 inspections and driUs in the use of all apparatus on vessels, but after 
 aU, Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, you may take all the care you will, 
 there still remains to be taken into consideration the hmnan factor. 
 No line of steamers can run forever without an accident unless the 
 human factor is so alert, so weU disciplined, and so faithful that 
 nothing can happen without immediate discovery, with immediate 
 action for the best. Disasters will, in spite of us all, happen on the 
 
9 
 
 water as they happen on land, though it is our duty to minimize 
 them if possible. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Olcott, you can speak to us, I am sure, as 
 manager of a very important passenger line. We shall be very glad 
 to hear what you have to say. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. E. E. OLCOTT, REPRESENTING THE HUDSON 
 RIVER DAY LINE, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, there is nobody, as Mr. Taylor has said, that is more 
 interested in this subject than we are ourselves. The wonderful 
 record of the Fall River Line, dating back before his time, in trans- 
 porting so many people without the loss of a life, speaks for itself 
 without any argument. 
 
 We have all been pleased, Mr. Secretary, with your gracious recep- 
 tion of us here and with your request that we make suggestions. 
 I am like Mr. Taylor in feeling that I have not a great many to make, 
 anxious as we are to give the result of all our experience. I do not 
 know that everybody in the room knows that you, Mr. Secretary, 
 were once a steamboat man and this connection with the business in 
 early life helps you to understand our position now. 
 
 As for the suggestion of Mr. Myrick, I think that is excellent. One 
 thing I was pleased to have him mention was the danger of compe- 
 tition from what he, not I, called ''rattletraps, '^ because that is 
 something which ought to be safeguarded by this great Department. 
 We do not run under any franchise. We can not buy a right of way 
 on the navigable waters. We are therefore in a very different posi- 
 tion from that of a railroad. It has its right of way, which it has 
 acquired, and under the present laws a road can not be paralleled 
 very easily by another line. These difficulties, under which the boat 
 lines labor, should be realized by the public. 
 
 Mr. Taylor has also spoken of the compressed asbestos and pulp 
 boards which we used in the construction of the WasJiington Irving. 
 
 The Secretary. Will you tell u^ about them ? 
 
 Mr. Olcott. Asbestos is wholly noninflammable but it is very 
 heavy in weight and brittle so that in the public gangways it is not 
 as practicable as compressed paper pulp board, which is very much 
 less inflammable than wood. The three-sixteenths-inch asbestos 
 boards were largely used in the partitions in the crews' quarters. 
 This board being absolutely fireproof is a wonderful safeguard. 
 
 In our special case we consider our safety comes from the fact that 
 our boats run in the daytime when everybody is awake, and even 
 the least smeU of smoke would be detected at once. We have never 
 had a fire that amounted to anything during the running seasons of 
 our boats. The great thing in the construction of the Hendrick 
 Hudson, the Washington Irving, and the Robert Fulton was a steel 
 casing from the hold to the hurricane deck. The gaUey and the 
 boiler compartments are the more dangerous places on shipboard, 
 so we put in a steel casing from the hold to the hurricane deck so that 
 if any fire should originate it could not communicate with any of 
 the woodwork. 
 
 We had the great pleasure and honor of a surprise visit from Super- 
 vising Inspector General Uhler some time ago, and he did not come 
 alone. He brought with him supervising inspectors from practically 
 
 46281—16 2 
 
10 
 
 the whole country, who had been attending a session in New York, 
 and they went over the Washington Irving from hold to pilot house. 
 We were very glad to see them and would have welcomed any sug- 
 gestions they had to offer. They expressed satisfaction with all they 
 saw. 
 
 I want to give credit to Mr. Frank E. Kirby, our consulting engi- 
 neer, and who is here to-day, for the many safeguards introduced in 
 the construction of the Washington Irving, Ilendrick Hudson, and 
 Robert Fulton. The last time the steamboat-inspection laws were 
 extensively modified, he, at the request of President Roosevelt, 
 recommended most of the changes that were adopted. 
 
 I agree with Mr. Taylor, agam, in saying that a town meeting is 
 not a place at which to arrive at practical solutions of any problems. 
 A committee of individuals will have to sit and go over the matter 
 in hand and then suggest revisions. 
 
 I repeat that we want to do everything that is practicable and 
 reasonable. 
 
 Our boats have to be of extremely shallow draft, and it is a good 
 deal of trouble to build a boat of large capacity and not have it draw 
 more than 8 or SJ feet of water; and so you can not lay down any 
 universal law, but we have looked into every device and we have 
 tried to be as careful as possible. We put in our boats the Aero fire 
 alarm. The essential feature of this system is a very fine tube of 
 copper filled with air. A very little increase of temperature will 
 expand the air in this small tube and send in the alarm. We have 
 never had a fire so as to test it in that way, but we are experimenting 
 all the time. Even holding a burning match alongside a little piece 
 of the tube will set off the alarm. 
 
 One source of danger which I think is worth mentioning in this 
 connection is the miserable, deplorable cigarette. If people would 
 stop smoking the cigarette, our risk would be reduced. A cigarette 
 smoker is careless. It is astonishing how long a cigarette butt will 
 smolder, and if it falls into inflammable matter it is easy to make a 
 fire. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Olcott, was the use of fiber and asbestos on 
 your steamers made with the definite idea of fire restriction ? 
 
 Mr. Olcott. Oh, yes. We experimented with lots of things. 
 
 The Secretary. Have you attempted to do anything in the way 
 of doors such as Mr. Taylor has described ? 
 
 Mr. Olcott. No. I nave looked into that matter. One objection 
 to them is that they are heavy. Our instructions are to stop the 
 boat if a fire starts. Of course, we are scarcely ever more than a 
 half mile from shore, and we have long gangplanks which in most 
 cases in the Hudson River would be long enough to land the passengers 
 on the bank or in water of wading depth, on account of the shaUow 
 draft of our boats. 
 
 The Secretary. If you were building a new boat to-day, with all 
 you know, what would you do that you have not done ? Pardon my 
 asking the question. 
 
 Mr. Olcott. Of course, I am glad to answer any question you 
 desire to ask. I can not think of any differences or changes I would 
 make. We are rather afraid that bulkhead doors would be a source 
 of danger rather than protection, where we carry so many people, in 
 preventing them from leaving the boat in case of an emergency. In 
 freight spaces they might be put in to advantage, but I do not think. 
 
n 
 
 in the case of our day boats, that they are necessary. We carry no 
 freight and have no inflammable cargo, so I do not think bulkhead 
 doors would be of much avail. We considered them in building our 
 last boat, the WasJiington Irving, which came out in 1913, but decided 
 against them. 
 
 We have no cargo space at all, and have great facilities by broad 
 stairways and broad gangplanks for unloading our passengers. We 
 ordinarily, at our tw^o principal New York landings. Forty-second 
 Street and One hundred and twenty-ninth Street, unload 250 people 
 a minute. If there was any haste, we could unload many more than 
 that. Three gangplanks, each 6 feet wide, are used at a time. We 
 tie up as near as we can at all our piers and adjust the gangway drop 
 so we accommodate ourselves to the conditions of the tide; so the 
 gangplank is nearly level, and that is a big help. We make quick 
 lanaings, as we have seven intermediate landings between New York 
 and Albany, and in many places we take on hundreds of passengers, 
 to say notning of their trunks. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Kirby, we would be very glad to have a word 
 or two from you, and I want to ask you a question or two at your con- 
 venience. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK E. KIRBY, NAVAL ARCHITECT, 
 
 DETROIT, MICH. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, at first thought one feels that an all-metal or steel 
 structure would be an ideal fireproof building, and yet it is the uni- 
 versal practice that m all fireproof buildings on land no metal or steel 
 work snail be exposed where fire could reach it. It is, therefore, 
 protected or fireproofed, as it is called, by tile or concrete covering. 
 An example of such a structure was the Iroquois Theater, located in 
 the city of Chicago, which burned in broad daylight during a matinee 
 performance, resulting in a greater loss of life in proportion to those 
 present than on the steamboat General Slocum. 
 
 I was in the city of Augusta, Ga., a few days after the great fire 
 which destroyed over a hundred acres of buddmgs. I examined the 
 skyscrapers built on the latest up-to-date j)lan of fireproof construc- 
 tion. The largest one was a new budding just about completed but 
 unoccupied. There was some scaffolding m the building when the 
 fire occurred. The blackened and scorched walls, the spalled trim 
 around the doors and windows showed plainly that human life coidd 
 not have survived in the building. This leads one to wonder how 
 much protection these structures afford and what is the real hazard 
 from fire. 
 
 Because there are more structures on land than on water, and 
 therefore more danger from fire, more thought by more people has 
 been given to the matter of fireproof construction and fireproofing. 
 
 I have not much solicitation about the fire 'hazard on a modem 
 excursion steamer — a boat without sleeping accommodations for 
 passengers, and not carrying cargo — ^having a steel hull with steel 
 mclosm*es around stacks, engine and galley casing, and vents. The 
 inclosures should be open at the top. I mention this point because 
 I learned of a case only a day or two ago where, owing to closed top, 
 the firemen were driven out of the fireroom, resulting in failure of 
 steam pressure and destruction of the ship. 
 
 The Secretary. Are you speaking of any specific boat ? 
 
12 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. Excursion boats at Detroit, Buffalo, and on the Hudson 
 River. 
 
 The Secretary. The Seeandheef 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. That is a different type of boat. I will touch on that 
 in a moment. 
 
 I confess I have most faith in proper personal management of ships 
 for fire protection. When it comes to a boat carrying merchandise 
 cargo on the main deck immediately under the cabins, particularly 
 night boats, that is a matter for more serious consideration. There 
 are a great number of ships of that type. I have two in mind where 
 the owners were particularly solicitous that they be made as fireproof 
 as possible. The plan followed was to make the hull and all work 
 below main deck of steel, even the bunks for the crew and bulkheads 
 dividing the crew's quarters; in fact, everything below deck. All 
 inclosures on main deck, stack and engine casing, galley and all vents, 
 of steel extending well above the upper deck. Store and linen rooms 
 on all decks, of steel or fireproofed wood. Skylight sash of steel, with 
 wired glass. When it came to the consideration of the promenade 
 deck, which is immediately over the cargo, it was first designed to be 
 of steel, but on account of the difficulty of fireproofing, that plan was 
 abandoned and finally made of wood and fireproofed on the underside 
 with asbestos boards and sheathed with galvanized iron, care being 
 taken to have no fastenings through the deck. A model section of 
 this deck construction was first made and arranged to form the top 
 of a furnace, having side walls of brick. This was fired with pine 
 wood. After burning an hour, though quite hot on top, it was an 
 efficient protection against the fire. 
 
 The Secretary. How thick was that ? 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. An inch thick. The carlings were 3 inches by 5. We 
 were careful to have no fastening through the deck, but instead all 
 fastenings were horizontal through the carlings. This prevented 
 pulling under the effect of the heat. 
 
 The Secretary. Is not that a lighter modification of modern mill 
 construction ? 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. I do not know much about mills. 
 
 The Secretary. Capt. Phinney. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Where the mill construction is the main feature 
 they use larger members, 12 by 16 for beams and 3 by 4 inch plank. 
 The theory is that while you can kindle a fire in your fireplace very 
 easily with small pieces, you find it very difficult to kindle it with 
 logs of wood. 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. We have to rely upon a different principle. We must 
 keep the fire away from the thin wood. The promenade decks of 
 the steamers just described are supported by pillars of solid round 
 bars, which withstand fire better than tubes. The whole of this 
 cargo space is provided with sprinklers and is also divided at the 
 engine room about amidship with steel rolling shutters and the saloon 
 decks are also divided into sections by fireproof doors to segregate a 
 fire if forward or aft. The sprinkler system is also extended in other 
 parts of the ship, both above and below^ the main deck. In addition, 
 the ships are fitted throughout with the Aero Fire Alarm system 
 with indicators in the engine room and pilot house. 
 
 The Secretary. Have there been any fires on board those vessels ? 
 
13 
 
 Mr. KiRBY. Not on those particular vessels, but it is quite usual 
 to have fires on steamers during construction, there bemg aU sorts of 
 tinkers aboard — plumbers, iron workers, joiners, and people who 
 are likely to make fire. I only mention this as my own experience. 
 
 The Secretary. What would you do in the light of your present 
 knowledge, Mr. Kirby, that you have never done in the way of fire 
 restricting or in the way of fireproof construction ? 
 
 Mr. Kirby. In regard to that matter, I have not considered the 
 subject lately because, notwithstanding the greatest boom in ship- 
 building ever known on the Great Lakes, there is not a single passen- 
 ger steamer building and there has not even been a single inquiry 
 for one. That being the situation now, I have not to bother about 
 fireproofing or anything else. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Kirby, have you made any mquiry or had 
 anything to do with the process of fireproofing wood as carried on 
 by the Forest Products Laboratory of the Department of Agricul- 
 ture at Madison, Wis ? 
 
 Mr. Kirby. I can not say I have; but I have had samples, of 
 course, of fireproof wood sent to me by manufacturers at different 
 times. I have tested it in an open fire and under similar conditions. 
 
 The Secretary. Of course the Forest Products Laboratory is not 
 interested in any particular manufacturer. They have achieved 
 some rather wonderful results with fireproof wood. For instance, I 
 have seen wooden furniture which has steod fire at 1,000 degrees 
 without material injury. They have studied the matter through a 
 long period, with some very interesting results. I wondered if the 
 matter had been brought to your attention at aU. 
 
 Mr. Kirby. No, sir; it had not. 
 
 The Secretary. I am rather hopeful of somethmg of that kind. 
 
 Mr. Kirby. I had hoped that some process would be found to be 
 practicable. 
 
 The Secretary. I think it would be of interest to you to inquire 
 of Mr. Weiss, the director of that laboratory 
 
 Mr. Kirby. I certainly will do it. 
 
 The Secretary (continuing). To see what they have actually done. 
 They have built a cabin of considerable size, fully furnished with desk 
 and office furniture complete, and then they burned it up. Then they 
 built the cabin over again with fireproof wood and they could not 
 burn it up. Then they built it over again with fireproof wood and 
 put in some furniture that was not fireproof, which furniture burned. 
 They have a splendid moving picture of those experiments. 
 
 Mr. Olcott. May I ask, Mr. Kirby, about these bulkhead doors 
 he spoke of, whether he thinks the point that Mr. Taylor made that 
 they might prevent passengers from leaving, might not show that 
 they are not necessary on a passenger boat? 
 
 Mr. Kirby. I have given some consideration to that, as Mr. Olcott 
 said. I am the responsible designer for his steamboats. I had con- 
 sidered that matter. I felt that the free movement of passengers 
 was more important. Of course you understand those are day boats 
 and there are people all over them. I am not solicitous about danger 
 of fire on that type of steamboats compared to those boats that 
 carry cargo. 
 
 The Secretary. I am interested, gentlemen, in what Mr. Olcott 
 said about the effects of this fiber board in resisting fire. I remember 
 
14 
 
 very well when a large paper mill near my home burned, burned 
 completely. There were stacks of the paper in the mill in various 
 places. What they did with those stacks after the mill was destroyed 
 was to trim off 2 or 3 inches of the edge and sell them as perfectly 
 good paper. It was almost entirely undamaged except for an inch 
 or two at the edge. 
 
 I want to just mention two causes of fires that we have had in our 
 Department here within a month, and then I will ask Mr. Gatewood 
 to speak to us, for I believe he had the designing of a vessel with 
 steel upper construction. We have had three fires on one vessel 
 arising from short-circuiting electric wires built 12 years ago, in 
 wooden tubes, wooden coverings. Naturally we took that all out 
 and put in steel tubing. Another cause of fire was one in which the 
 bunkers lay immediately adjoining the fireroom, which was rather 
 warm. A certain grade of soft coal in those bunkers (although there 
 was a steel partition between the two) ignited at the base of the 
 bunker from the heat transmitted through the steel plating, and we 
 found it necessary to put in an air space there to prevent the trans- 
 mission of heat through that plate. That was sufficient to set the 
 coal on fire and obliged us to throw out all the coal from the bunkers. 
 
 Mr. Kirby, did you wish to say something ? 
 
 Mr. Kirby. The most serious fire we ever had on a new vessel was 
 the City of Cleveland, Third. She was partly constructed. I do not 
 mean to say that she was «, steamboat. She was building. The sash 
 were not in the windows. She had several piles of this fiber board 
 on her decks, and after the fire had burned down (that stuff had 
 dropped through to the main deck) we trimmed off the edges and 
 used the rest of it. On many steamboats aU of the panel work 
 around the saloon is made of that material, the panels of the doors 
 as well as of the staterooms. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Gatewood, you are connected with the New- 
 port News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. Will you teU what your experience has been in 
 this connection ? 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM GATEWOOD, NAVAL ARCHITECT, 
 NEWPORT NEWS SHIPBUILDING & DRY DOCK CO., NEWPORT 
 NEWS, VA. 
 
 Mr. Secretarv, it has been some 1 1 years ago now since we started the 
 construction of the Jamestown, a vessel intended to ply on the Potomac 
 River. At that time we felt that about the onlv material which was 
 fireproof was steel, and we used as much steel in the construction 
 of the vessel as we found we were able to use. The vessel weighed 
 about 10 per cent more on account of the steel we did use. We were 
 not very fimited in draft and the vessel was able to stand that addi- 
 tional weight. The boat was comparatively small, and 10 per cent 
 on a small boat is not as great as on a large boat. We did not succeed 
 in getting a boat which was what could properly be described as 
 fireproof. We experimented with various materials, especially with 
 steel, and were unable to provide any material which would serve the 
 purpose of passenger decks, so that we were forced to use wood decks. 
 We cased them on the underside with sheet steel, but we were unable 
 to protect the upper surface properly. We tried rubber tiling on the 
 
15 
 
 weather deck. We found it would not stand the variations of tem- 
 perature and extremes of weather, so that the tiUng had to be removed 
 from the weather deck. So while the boat was perhaps somewhat 
 safer from fire than vessels previously built, it could hardly be ranked 
 as a strictly fireproof vessel. 
 
 The Secretary. Would you repeat the construction you then 
 used in any other vessel if you were given liberty in the matter ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Well, we shipbuilders usually try to meet the 
 requirements of our clients. If a shipowner should come to us and 
 ask us to build him a vessel of a certain type, we would endeavor to 
 do it. While we have some ideas of our own, yet we feel that our 
 main vocation is to build ships for owners, and that it is the owners' 
 privilege to specify the kind of ship that they want, understanding 
 that they perhaps know the details of their business and their re- 
 quirements better than we do. 
 
 The Secretary. But if a shipowner asked your advice, what 
 would you give him in the way of advice as a result of your experi- 
 ence with the Jamestown'^. 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. If he was willing to put up the additional money, 
 we would tell him that we could give him the measure of safety which 
 we had been able to accomplish on the Jamestown. 
 
 The Secretary. Could you better it from your present knowledge ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Since the days of the Jamestown we have not built 
 any excursion steamers and only a few river steamers of any kind — 
 only one, I think — ^so that our experience has gone rather along the 
 line of other craft since those days. To my present knowledge we 
 have no material which is strictly fireproof and which is adaptable 
 to the upper works of our light river steamers. If anything has been 
 brought out which is entirely suitable for the purpose, we are not 
 acquainted with it. We have used materials on vessels which have 
 been of the nature of fireproof material. 
 
 The Secretary. Such as 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. WeU, we have used asbestos board and fiber 
 boards of one kind or another, but it is difficult to make them serve 
 the purpose of more than removing a certain amount of more inflam- 
 mable material rather than to make them real fireproof screens. 
 
 The Secretary. Is it your opinion, if I understand you correctly, 
 Mr. Gatewood, that something is possible in the way of fire restric- 
 tion rather than in the way of fireproofing in the strict sense ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Mr. Secretary, it is of course well known that if 
 you can limit the amount of wood and replace it by something which 
 will not itself add to the flame, you are accomplishing something 
 along that line. 
 
 The Secretary. You have heard the suggestions that have been 
 made as to the practice with regard to bulkheads and to what we 
 may caU fire screens. What is your view on that ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. I rather think that for seagoing vessels where the 
 vessels are out of reach of land some means of preventing a fire from 
 spreading would be an eminently useful thing. 
 
 The Secretary. But for river vessels ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. For river vessels I rather think with Mr. Taylor 
 that it would prevent the proper taking care of a large number of 
 passengers by separating them and preventing access to parts of the 
 
16 
 
 vessel; and the disadvantage would more than offset the advant- 
 age that would be gained by the use of the screens. I do not 
 know that that would apply as strongly to the night vessels. I under- 
 stand that the experience of the Fall River Line has not shown any 
 disadvantage in the use of the fire screens, which they have installed 
 on their later vessels; but in that, of course, I am only speaking from 
 hearsay. 
 
 The Secretary. Is it your experience, Mr. Gatewood, that owners 
 call upon you for a less safe vessel than you would yourself build for 
 the purpose intended if you were given permission so to do? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. No ; I would not Mke to make that statement. 
 
 The Secretary. I do not mean it as a general statement but is it 
 so sometimes ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Well, of course, Mr. Secretary, you know that 
 there are all sorts of people in the world and that we each one of us 
 try to Hve up to our hghts. Some owners know tbeir particular busi- 
 ness, know they have not had trouble with certain vessels, and they 
 therefore can not see the use of spending more money and of making 
 departures from their present practice. 
 
 The Secretary. Would you mean by that, that having had no fire 
 they did not see the necessity of preventing one ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Well, very much along that line, yes. If there 
 were no fires, people would not bother about fireproof construction. 
 It is because fires do occur that people look out for them, within the 
 limitations of their business. 
 
 The Secretary. Can you offer any suggestion, Mr. Gatewood, 
 referring to excursion and passenger steamers, whether day or night, 
 and to steamers on bays and lakes and rivers, which would in your 
 judgment generally better safeguard them against fire by construction ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. If you have exposed woodwork in a vessel and are 
 able to case it with something which would prevent flames from 
 reaching it, you will probably have offered a safeguard against fire. 
 
 The Secretary. To what particular portion of the vessel's con- 
 struction do you now refer? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. To any part at aU. For instance, on combined 
 passenger and freight vessels it would appear that there may be 
 danger from fire from the freight. In such case the freight could be 
 separated from the rest of the vessel, if it is feasible to do so, by 
 something which will not readily transmit the flame. Of course, on 
 those steamers which load one day and unload the next, danger from 
 fire from freight is very much reduced, in my opinion, from those 
 which keep the freight on board for long periods of time, just as you 
 mentioned about the coal in the bunkers. If the coal in the bunkers 
 is continually renewed, I think the danger from it is very much 
 reduced. So that you can have conditions fairly safe for vessels 
 which load one day and unload the next which do not apply to sea- 
 going craft where the cargo is confined for days. 
 
 Let me add that while accidents by fire are more freauent on vessels 
 at dock than while under way, it would seem that furtner precautions 
 could be taken to prevent the starting and spread of fires than are 
 taken on the average vessel. Completely inclosing the freight spaces 
 by steel, including steel covers for hatches and ventilators, would 
 seem proper on vessels carrying any considerable number of pas- 
 sengers. The elimination of a large quantity of wood and other 
 
17 
 
 combustible material from passenger quarters can be made in many 
 vessels at small first cost, and in some vessels at a saving in cost. The 
 traveling public which approves of steel railroad coaches will prob- 
 ably offer no objection to greater simplicity on vessels if it is accom- 
 panied by an assurance of increased safety. 
 
 The Secretary. Have you had any experience with sprinkler sys- 
 tems on vessels ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. No, sir; we have had almost none. 
 
 The Secretary. You have not installed any ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. No, sir; so far as I know, we have not. 
 
 The Secretary. Is there anybody present who wishes to ask Mr. 
 Gatewood any questions ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Mr. Gatewood, do you think it would be practical 
 to fit a water screen instead of a steel divisional bulkhead ? 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. I have never had anything to do with a water 
 screen. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. I am somewhat in sympathy with Mr. Stevenson 
 Taylor's remarks. The divisional bulkhead would not, however, be 
 an element of safety in all cases. It would be an advantage on 
 ocean-going passenger vessels where the design is so different from 
 that of Sound and river steamers, but in the latter I believe the 
 divisional bulkheads would seriously incommode the movement and 
 handling of passengers. In place of these steel divisional bulkheads 
 I inquire whether a water screen or curtain would not be a good 
 proposition; that is, it would isolate certain portions of the boat in 
 case of fire and yet allow passengers and crew to go backward and 
 forward. 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. Do you speak of a perforated pipe in case of fire ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Gatewood. I think there is such a system in use on the exterior 
 of buildings for protecting them. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. It is very common now to have that safeguard 
 against fire and up to a certain limit it works weU, but with a very 
 hot fire it is not a complete success. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Do you think it keeps sparks from flying? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. No doubt it would prevent sparks from going 
 through. The great difficulty we have is to make it perfect. Some 
 of the openings will get clogged up and you will get a hole through 
 your screen at the worst place in the fire. They are a help, but we 
 do not think a prevention. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Mention has been made of the use of fiber board. 
 At the Fore River Shipbuilding Corporation we used a lot of this class 
 of material in connection with the Argentine battleships we built. The 
 specifications for those vessels recjuired that all staterooms be paneled, 
 while the extent of the furnishings were luxurious when compared 
 with those installed in war vessels of other navies, and the material 
 composing the paneled bulkheads was required to be at least fire 
 resisting. We made a number of experiments with various patented 
 ^'boards" and found the most satisfactory, from a fire-retarding view, 
 was one made almost entirely of asbestos. The stateroom bulkheads 
 proper were constructed of steel with metal furring each side to which 
 were fastened the asbestos boards by metal strips along seams, giving 
 the bulkhead a large paneled appearance. Due to the furring pieces 
 
 46281—16 3 
 
18 
 
 between bulkhead and asbestos board there was an air space. We 
 believe this construction of bulkheads made a very effective fire 
 retarder, but of course it was expensive. 
 
 The Secretary. How was it as to weight ? 
 " Mr. Bennett. It was somewhat heavy. If I remember rightly, 
 about 3 pounds per square foot. 
 
 The Secretary. What thickness did you use ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Three-eighths of an inch for the asbestos board ? 
 
 The Secretary. How frequently was it supported ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. About every 30 inches. We had to support it so 
 that if a man fell against it, it would not break. 
 
 The Secretary. What was the width of the air space ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. It varied with structural conditions, but generally 
 it was about a quarter of an inch, or, in other words, the thickness of 
 the metal furring. 
 
 The Secretary. Would this '^board" take a finish? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Yes; it took paint very readily. 
 
 The Secretary. It was an interior wall ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. It was the interior wall of each of the officers' 
 staterooms. Even though they removed the major portion of the 
 wood furniture, before going into action, yet there was a certain 
 amount which had to remain for everyday accommodation and which 
 would be Mable to catch fire or smolder and generate smoke. The 
 Argentine Government desired to guard against that, and we made 
 each cabin a more or less isolated compartment, so that no fire could 
 spread. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Bennett, suppose you had a free hand, and 
 that I came to you and said, '*We want the very last word in the 
 way of precautions against fire" — we wiU not use the word ''fire- 
 proof" because we wiU aU agree that metal will bum. What would 
 you recommend ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. On passenger vessels of the "Sound" and "river" 
 design, I should be inclined to suggest a water system — a sprinkling 
 system. 
 
 The Secretary. You mean a sprinkler system with water heads 
 at various places ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Yes; in passages and also in main living rooms; 
 that is, the rooms where a number of people congregate. There is 
 always a lot of furniture there that is combustible. Of course the 
 arrangement and number of sprinkler heads would depend entirely 
 on the design of the vessel. 
 
 The Secretary. Now, to go into details: Would you use a wet- 
 pipe system ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Either wet or dry, preferably "wet" and automatic, 
 arranged to be under pressure from a tank on the topmost deck. 
 
 The Secretary. Would you be hmited by the weight and height 
 of the tank ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Not by the size of the tank or tanks I have in 
 mind. 
 
 The Secretary. How much water would you have to carry in 
 your tank ^ 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Sufficient only for the automatic sprinkler heads to 
 keep going until the steam fire pump could be put into operation. 
 In other words, the tank would act as a reserve or ready supply. 
 
19 
 
 The Secretary. How long ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Perhaps 5 or 10 minutes. 
 
 The Secretary. How much water would you have to carry ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. That I can not say offhand, but the little revolving 
 sprinklers I have in mind would not use up a great amount of water 
 before the fire pump was started. 
 
 The Secretary. Have you ever given thought to the question 
 of the weight and location of this tank ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Not seriously. At present, in many instances, we 
 arrange gravity tanks on the topmost deck for fresh water and 
 sanitary purposes and these tanks run up to 500 or 600 gallons 
 capacity, and I see no reason why the present sanitary tanks could 
 not be piped up to the automatic sprinkler system. 
 
 The Secretary. Has your attention been called to any method 
 of utilizing in a sprinkler system the same mixture that is used in 
 chemical fire engines and thereby greatly reducing at once the size 
 of the apparatus and its cost ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Not especially. 
 
 The Secretary. Has that system come to your knowledge ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. No, sir; it has not. In fact, I am like Mr. Gate- 
 wood in regard to this. We have not yet found in building boats at 
 Fore River a shipowner who paid extraordinary attention to fire 
 prevention, other than that required by^ the United States super- 
 vising inspectors and classification societies. 
 
 The Secretary. Is not that, after all, the central fact in your expe- 
 rience in building passenger steamers, that the shipowner does not 
 put special stress upon fire prevention ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Generally, in the ships we have built he does not. 
 But, I should like to qualify that by stating that we have not built 
 what we call a ''fufi" Imer or a ^'fiul" passenger boat for a number 
 of years. 
 
 The Secretary. Referring to what Mr. Gatewood said about 
 sheathing the underdeck spaces against fire: What have you done in 
 that direction ? 
 
 Mr. BenJ^ett. Nothing. 
 
 The Secretary. What do you think of that ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. If you can incase or inclose a compartment or hold 
 built of wood by a sheet-metal sheathing and allow a small air space 
 between, you will get more or less of a fire retarder; it will retard 
 the progress of the fire, but I do not think wiU stop it, if the fire is 
 of any intensity. 
 
 Secretary Wilson. Let me ask a question. It may be out of the 
 abundance of my ignorance, but in these suggestions the thought has 
 been running through my mind. To what extent would this air space 
 add to the intensity of a fire when once a vent has been made into 
 the air space — would it add to or detract from it ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. I do not know that it would add to the progress of 
 the fire, because the furring pieces to which the metal sheathing is 
 attached wiU prevent a continuous draft. The air space to my mind 
 wiU keep the surrounding wood outside the sheathing cooler than the 
 steel sheathing and so prevent or delay its being charred and set on 
 fire. 
 
 Secretary Wilson. I understand your viewpoint, that you make 
 a cushion of air ; but, having taken that precaution ia that particular 
 
20 
 
 way by putting an air space there, suppose that the fire, when it has 
 originated, burns through into the air space, to what extent does it 
 add to the intensity of the fire under those circumstances ? 
 
 Mr. Bennett. I think you would then be down to the same con- 
 ditions in which you would be if the steel sheathing was not there; 
 in fact, it would be even better, because the amount of draft would, 
 I believe, be less. 
 
 The Secretary. Capt. Phinney, may I ask you a question ? In 
 introducing Capt. Phinney I would add that he is a man of long 
 experience and also a representative of the Associated Factory Mutual 
 Fire Insurance Cos. Capt. Phinney, is it not a fact that to place 
 around the top of a stairway a vertical board partition, even though 
 small and thin, whereby the hot air or flame is banked, so to speak, at 
 the top of the room, tnat a simple partition Uke that wiU materially 
 delay the passage of the fire ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. That is true up to a certain point. I have seen a 
 pretty hot fire that would not burn through such an inclosure in a 
 long while. 
 
 The Secretary. I think I was told by a representative of your 
 companies that a wooden inclosure of this kind placed around the top 
 of a staircase would delay a fire passing up that staircase from 10 to 12 
 minutes, even though the staircase was of pine. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. When that is made of seven-eighths-inch stuff, 
 double, and matched, so that the cracks are covered, we accept it as 
 fairly good. 
 
 I wish to say one word along the line of the recent suggestion about 
 the air spaces. AU our efforts have been concentrated on removing 
 every possible concealed space from Mutual properties, and in pro- 
 portion as we are successful in removing these spaces we feel that we 
 nave added to safety. 
 
 The Secretary. Capt. Phinney, may I ask, while you are on your 
 feet, that you be good enough to state what your experience at sea has 
 been? 
 
 STATEMENT OF CAPT. C. H. PHINNEY, SECRETARY OF INSPECTION 
 DEPARTMENT, FACTORY MUTUAL FIRE INSURANCE COS., BOS- 
 TON, MASS. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have listened with great interest to 
 what has been said, but feehng aU the time that my experience has 
 had very little bearing Dn river and inland navigation. I was 20 years 
 at sea in sailing ships on deep-water voyages, and I saw the evolution 
 of the sailing ship to the steamship. There were very few iron ships 
 when I began, and there were very few wooden sailing ships left when 
 I quit. My experience has been m carrying coal. East India cargoes, 
 tea, grain, and general cargoes. The anxiety the shipmaster has to 
 carry in his mind as to fire makes me realize that anything along the 
 line of safeguarding the long-voyage ships is very desirable. When it 
 comes to the ocean-going passenger ships, the big liners, it is almost 
 criminal not to take advantage of the fire engineering art as it is 
 developed to-day. Some of the large Cunard and German steamships 
 have sprinklers m the lower holds ; and I think that wiU extend with- 
 out very much delay, for as soon as it becomes known that those ships 
 are safer, passengers who have knowledge of it will prefer them. 
 
21 
 
 In these large ocean steamships when a fire starts in the lower 
 holds a dense smoke is quickly developed and this prevents the 
 handling of hose streams to advantage, whereas if the ship is 
 sprinklered the water is delivered immediately over the fire which 
 will be extinguished or controlled in spite of the smoke. 
 
 I do not think it has been brought out here that the fact that the 
 modern up-to-date ship with fireproof construction and all known 
 fire prevention devices installed will have to compete, as regards 
 business and freight earning abiUty, with an old-fashioned vessel 
 without any of this expensive equipment, but in manv cases able 
 to compete on equal terms with the much more costly ship, and this 
 would seem to call for some compensating arrangement to put them 
 more on an equaUtv. 
 
 The question of tne weight involved in substituting steel for wood 
 I do not think has so much bearing in a -seagoing ship. In the first 
 
 Elace the material used is heavier now. You can build these river 
 oats and Sound boats very fight, but a liner must be built very 
 substantiafiy. From concerns that are represented here to-day 
 (The Fore River and the New York Shipbuilding companies) I had 
 a few years ago some statistics which they furnished me on the cost 
 as prices were then. The cost of substituting iron and steel for wood 
 throughout the ship would not be greater than between 5 and 10 per 
 cent, more fikely nearer 5 per cent. I would be in favor of a thorough- 
 going job. If you are going to take out some wood and leave some 
 in, you fail to accompfish a good job of protection. We find in mill 
 experience that if we leave any one place unprotected, that is the 
 place where the fire wiQ generally start and get away from us. I 
 should want to get out all the wood. Ocean liners have not the 
 chance of ^^ running their noses into the bank" to land passengers, 
 which advantage has been claimed for river boats; they must rely 
 on their own resources. I think all of the wood should be eliminated. 
 I think the advancing price of wood favors that, and will in the 
 future. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you regard *the sprinkler system as having 
 been sufficiently developed to warrant its recommendation as a 
 general safeguard on ships, both for the ocean and for inland waters ? 
 
 Capt. Phixney. I wish to speak very guardedly about inland 
 experience, as I have not given tne same thought to it that I have to 
 adapting the sprinkler system to seagoing vessels. I have no hesi- 
 tation in saying that I fufiy believe it would almost remove the fire 
 hazard in the case of an ocean-going vessel; and it seems to me the 
 experience of the Fall River Line and of steamers on the Lakes is 
 pretty good proof that there is no difficulty in adapting the sprinkler 
 system to such vessels. 
 
 It seems to be impossible to use anything but a dry-pipe system. 
 There are places about a ship where the water in pipes would be 
 sure to freeze in cold weather so I think the use of the dry-pipe 
 system on shipboard is inevitable. 
 
 The Secretary. Is that not a somewhat dehcate system in its 
 adjustments ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Not seriously. In our experience we have not 
 had a failure. 
 
 The Secretary. How large a pipe would you use ? 
 
22 
 
 Capt. Phinney. The same as in a factory. Of course it would 
 depend somewhat on the nature of the layout. With the many 
 turns and elbows that would probably be needed in installing a 
 sprinkler system throughout a vessel it would not do to have pipe 
 too small on account of friction loss. 
 
 The Secretary. How do you overcome the difficulty of storing 
 a sufficient volume of water ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. By the use of pressure tanks, which are tanks of 
 moderate size about two-thirds full of water and one-third full of air, 
 the air being kept at about 100 pounds pressure by the occasional use 
 of an air pump. 
 
 The Secretary. How much water would you carry for a ship of 
 medium size ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Well, with good discipline the pumps ought to 
 be started in 5 minutes; consequently only sufficient water would be 
 necessary for the first 5 or 10 minutes to supply a few heads until the 
 pump should take the place of the pressure tank drawing an unlim- 
 ited supply of water from the ocean, except in cases where a ship 
 was laid up, and even then there should be somebody aboard who 
 could start the pumps. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you regard the difficulty in respect to the 
 storage of a reserve supply of water as serious ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Not at all, in a vessel of any size. 
 
 The Secretary. Can it be readily so placed that it can flow to the 
 sprinkler ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. It is forced there by the air pressure. As soon as 
 the pump is started you have no further use for your tank. 
 
 The Secretary. How was it, as a matter of fact, applied on the 
 freight and passenger steamers of which you have spoken ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. I have never examined the installation, but I 
 have talked with the General Fire Extinguisher people, Mr. Grinnell 
 and others. I have the drawings showing the sprinkler layouts of 
 several of the ships. 
 
 The Secretary. What ships are they ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. I can hand you a list afterwards. The Fall River 
 Line has been mentioned, and some others. But we have examined 
 the layouts, and they are like the layouts in the mills; there is but 
 little difference in detail. 
 
 The Secretary. I have had brought to my attention, Capt. 
 Phinney, the possibility of a modification of the sprinkler system, 
 whereby it could be adapted to marine use without requiring as 
 much piping or as heavy valves or as much tankage as is used on 
 land, by using the same materials which are common in chemical fire 
 engines. Have you any knowledge of that ? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. We have had no experience in our business except 
 as we found it in our extinguishers. No building, to my knowledge, 
 has been equipped by substituting that for water. Mr. Pryor, am I 
 right? 
 
 Mr. Pryor. I believe there are no buildings equipped with them. 
 
 The Secretary. But such a system is in existence. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. I will say this, that anything which will not 
 take care of large fires I should not believe in. We have a saying in 
 our department that a man ought to be himg that ever laid anything 
 smaller than a 6-inch pipe. 
 
23 
 
 The Seceetary. We shall now be glad to hear from Mr. Berry, 
 of the New England Steamship Co. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. WARREN T. BERRY, SUPERINTENDENT OF 
 MARINE CONSTRUCTION, NEW ENGLAND STEAMSHIP CO., NEW- 
 PORT, R. I. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, some of the shipbuilders present 
 seem to think the owners are not particularly interested in fire pro- 
 tection. Possibly not all of them are, but some are particularly 
 interested. I am fortunately employed by a company that is giving 
 a great deal of thought to the matter, and I think there are many 
 others; but, as the Fall River Line has been spoken of a number of 
 times, I will simply review what has been done there. We operate 
 not only the Fall River Line but lines between New York and New 
 Bedford, New London, New Haven, Providence, and Bridgeport. 
 All our steamers have steel inclosures extending through all decks 
 around engine rooms and funnels. This is practically universal on 
 steamers oi the Sound type, recently built. We have utilized various 
 fire-re tardant, composite boards in recent construction wherever 
 possible, and are more than willing to adopt any fire-re tardant or 
 fireproof construction which is adaptable to our service. Our steamers 
 Commonwealth and Plymouth are fitted with fire-retardant bulkheads, 
 dividing the vessel into three parts; the cargo spaces are fined through- 
 out with galvanized sheet steel, and the entire interior of each vessel 
 fitted with sprinkler systems. Our freight steamer Pequonnock is 
 also fitted with a sprinkler system in the main deck cargo space, 
 making three steamers in all with sprinklers. 
 
 The Secretary. How does it operate ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. We have never had occasion to operate it, fortunately. 
 
 The Secretary. On what principle does it operate ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. It is a dry-pipe system, manually operated. The 
 pump is controlled by a governor, and a pressure of 100 pounds is 
 maintained to a manifold in the engine room. Beyond that the 
 water is not allowed to go except in case of necessity. We do this for 
 various reasons. The weight of water which would be contained in 
 a sprinkler system all over the vessel is a very serious proposition, 
 not from its percentage of the total displacement, but from its loca- 
 tion as affecting the stability of the vessel. Furthermore, it could not 
 be protected in the open cargo spaces from freezing in the winter. 
 The Pequonnock was originally fitted with an automatic dry-pipe 
 system, controlled by an automatic valve which admitted water to 
 the system upon the opening of any sprinkler head. While this sys- 
 tem seems to operate successfully in many places, our experience 
 with broken sprmklers on the Pequonnock, wliere freight is stowed 
 close to the sprinklers, led us to abandon the automatic valve and 
 decide that the manually operated system was the only one we could 
 use. Further experience has led us to believe that a sprinkler pipe 
 discharging water into passenger quarters iii case of collision would be 
 very serious, in that it would create panic among passengers. Our 
 system, therefore, is manually operated from a manifold in the en- 
 gine room. In connection with the sprinkler system there is a ther- 
 mostat system arranged in circuits corresponding with the sprinklers. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. I should like to have you, if you will, give the pro- 
 cedure from the time the alarm comes in — ^how long it takes to do it. 
 
24 
 
 Your pump is going with a pressure of 100 pounds up to your mani- 
 fold. Now, then, an alarm comes in. 
 
 Mr. Berry. It is registered on an annunciator within 10 feet of the 
 manifold. The drop of section No. 20, we will say, on the saloon deck 
 forward, port side, comes down. A man simply steps over to the 
 manifold and opens valve No. 20 and his mission is fulfilled in so far 
 as the operation of the sprinkler system is concerned. It is necessary 
 to divide sprinkler systems into circuits, because the size of the pip- 
 ing is limited to some extent; and I believe this is the common prac- 
 tice in sprinkler engineering. There are other steamboat lines which 
 have installed the automatic system. One is the Goodrich Line, of 
 Chicago, which has three entirely automatic systems. We are not 
 yet convinced that this is the proper thing to do. 
 
 We have gone into aU-steel construction very much in detail. Mr. 
 Taylor has told you the result of the estimate of weights on the Ply- 
 moutJi, and I have recently estimated the weights of such construc- 
 tion on a small passenger and freight steamer 190 feet, water-line 
 length. On that steamer the joiner work, as usually built of wood 
 above the main deck, was estimated to weigh 77 tons. The construc- 
 tion considered was practically all steel except the decks and deck 
 carlins, and resulted in an estimated increase of 46 tons, or between 
 60 and 70 per cent of the total weight of that portion of the vessel. 
 Steel decks above the main deck were not considered because of the 
 prohibitive weight. 
 
 This entire question is so very large that it can not be thrashed out 
 at any one meeting. It should be considered by a committee or by 
 a commission that will be in session at all times. The art is advancing 
 every month; changes are being made every month. It is going to 
 be a very serious handicap to apply many of the things that can be 
 done in new construction to old construction. Boats of this country 
 can not be revolutionized by any rules or regulations unless it is de- 
 cided to throw them all away and build all new ones. There are many 
 things that can be done, however. I believe that the recent rule ap- 
 proved on April 8, requiring sprinkler systems or steel sheathing for 
 cargo spaces, is a good one. There is only one trouble with it. It 
 does not go far enough. It should have specified what the rec[uire- 
 ment for sprinklers was and not leave that to the discretion of assistant 
 or local inspectors in various parts of the country. Their ideas on the 
 subject must necessarily be very different one from another, and 
 sprinkler engineering has advanced far enough to-day so that it would 
 not be a difficult proposition to make specifications and incorporate 
 them in the rules, which would produce an efficient system and not 
 leave it to anyone's discretion. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you think it is possible to make a standard speci- 
 fication of general application ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. A general specification? Yes, sir; I do. The spacing 
 and type of sprinklers, the number of circuits allowable, the number 
 of sprinklers to each circuit, the size of the pipes, and the size of the 
 pump could be specified on all installations. I am not at all sure, 
 however, that all existing steamers can be properly sprinkled without 
 practically rebuilding them. This is a matter which requires consid- 
 erable thought and investigation. 
 
 The Secretary. But would you say that most steamers could be 
 very much safeguarded in that way ? 
 
25 
 
 Mr. Berry. Anything done in the line of retarding fire by sprinkling 
 even a portion of the vessel, by the use of asbestos board, composite 
 boards, steel sheathing, steel in place of wood — all help. 
 
 The Secretary. You have reference, however, if I understand you 
 correctly, Mr. Berry, to a manually operated system ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. That is what I personally beheve in, what my company 
 believes in. There are other companies and other men who do not 
 agree with that. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you know whether these other companies and 
 other men of whom you spoke have encountered any serious practical 
 difficulties in the operation of those systems ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. They advise me they have not. Mr. Goodrich can 
 probably tell you of his experience. He has had his experience and 
 we have had ours. The operating conditions vary considerably, and 
 the experience varies accorduigly. Spriakler systems are compara- 
 tively new thuigs on shipboard. They have not been developed, 
 possibly, to the extent they will be in the future. One thought that 
 occurs to us is this. Suppose one of our boats is struck by another 
 vessel and considerable joiner work destroyed. What will be the 
 result if in the course of that destruction one or more sprinkler pipes 
 are broken and water is discharged into passenger quarters? We 
 beheve it would create panic among the passengers who may be there, 
 and we are willing to sacrifice, if you please, some portion of the pro- 
 tection from fire which might be obtained from the automatic system 
 to avoid the possibiUty of panic among passengers. That very con- 
 dition has arisen on our steamers. The Commonwealth was in collision 
 with a Norwegian tramp off New London, which carried away some 
 of the joiner work forward, and the sprinkler pipes were very badly- 
 damaged. We believe that if there had been water runnuig through 
 those pipes it would have created a panic, which fortunately did not 
 occur. 
 
 The Secretary. I do not know that it is quite clear to my mind, 
 ^Ir. Berry, why that should create a panic, why there should be a tend- 
 ency toward creating a panic. I can well understand that if anything 
 in the way of water coming from below, fire from below, or anything 
 of that kind would have tms tendency. But a shower of water from 
 -overhead. What is the point of view, that they are panic-stricken, 
 scared because they think the ship is goiag down ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. They are on edge on account of the collision. Can you 
 imagine a farmer from Massachusetts occupying a stateroom and the 
 side of that stateroom being ripped out and water from perhaps a 
 3-inch pipe descending on him ? 
 
 The Secretary. In a stateroom ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. Yes. 
 
 The Secretary. You mean it breaks the main pipe ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; the main pipes go through staterooms in 
 order to supply other staterooms. That gentleman would come out 
 into the saloon and "raise some riot." It does not take much to 
 create panic when anything unusual happens on shipboard. 
 
 The Secretary. Is it not the experience of sprinkler engineers that 
 anything which is not perfectly automatic fails at the critical time ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. I have not any views on the subject. I am trying 
 to get your views clearly. 
 46281—16 4 
 
26 
 
 Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; there is the possibility of such failure. Our 
 system requires the human element, which we prefer to accept rather 
 tnan to incur the risk of panic of which I have spoken. 
 
 The Secretary. Suppose you were now designing another ship 
 for a similar service. What changes would you make in her, being 
 given a free hand ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. I do not know that we could make any material 
 changes in the steamer Commonwealth, for instance. It is possible 
 that various composite boards now produced would be advantageous 
 to use. We would not be inclined to make any changes in the 
 sprinkler system. I do not believe it is possible to make any changes 
 in the character of the decks. Possibly steel might be substituted 
 in minor quantities here and there for wood in various parts of the 
 standing structure. Beyond that I do not know what we could do. 
 We would like to be told if there is anything that can be done. 
 
 The Secretary. I thank you very much, Mr. Berry. 
 
 Gen. Uhler. I would like to ask Mr. Berry just one question. 
 There seems to be some doubt, Mr. Berry, as to the cause for panic. 
 Is it not the fact, and is it not the experience generally, that anything 
 out of the usual, particularly at night, wiU create panic, as in the 
 case of a collision, where they feel the bump? They know that 
 something has occurred, and then they are deluged for the time 
 with water coming from above. 
 
 Mr. Berry. They do not care where it comes from. 
 
 Gen. Uhler. Is it not the fact that anything out of the usual, and 
 particularly at night 
 
 Mr. Berry (interrupting). A boat stopping in the middle of the 
 night will bring people to the stateroom doors with their heads out. 
 It needs only one man to start those people on a rush somewhere; 
 they do not know where. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. May I say something on this subject of thermostats. 
 I was fortunate in having a fire and boat drill held for my benefit 
 on the steamer Providence on the dock at New York. We went to 
 the stateroom on the topmost deck and started the alarm through 
 the thermostat. In 17 seconds by the watch there were two stew- 
 ards, each with a fire extinguisher, at the stateroom door. In less 
 than a minute there were seven streams of water being played over 
 the sides. In the boat drill a minute and a half from the time the 
 bell was rung there was a boat being rowed out to the dock. 
 
 The Secretary. Did they know the drill was to come off ? 
 
 Mr. Myrick. No, sir; they did not. 
 
 STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM B. WILSON, SECRETARY OF LABOR. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, it will not be possible for me to be back here this 
 afternoon. May I say a word just before I go ? 
 
 It has seemed to me from the statements made to-day by men who 
 are in the best position to be famihar with the subject that there is 
 possibly a great deal of information that might be made available if 
 it was made somebody's business to go after it, get it, and collate it; 
 and that when you had that information available you would be in 
 a better position to determine the remedies which should be applied. 
 I think that is true particularly with regard to the question oi mate- 
 rials. I think it is also true with regard to some phases of construe- 
 
27 
 
 tion. ^\jid I want to throw out this suggestion, that it might be 
 well to have placed in the hands of the Department of Commerce, 
 the Department of Labor, and the Navy Department the selection of 
 a commission composed of representatives of the three bureaus in 
 those dejDartments that would be interested, to undertake the work 
 of gathering, compiling, and putting into proper shape the informa- 
 tion that seems to be needed for the proper consideration of the 
 question of preventing fires on ships and their control and extinguish- 
 ment when they occur. When that has been done you would be in 
 a position to determine just how far remedies could be applied to 
 old vessels, and to what extent they could be applied to vessels 
 hereafter constructed. 
 
 I thank you, Mr. Secretary, for the opportunity of being present, 
 and I am sorry I can not stay longer. 
 
 The Secretary. I am going in a few moments to ask Mr. Du- 
 Bosque of the Pennsylvania Railroad to express his views, but w^hile 
 what my friend. Secretary Wilson, has said is fresh in your minds I 
 want to suggest something to you along that same line for you to 
 think of; and that leads me also to say certain things before I 
 commence the suggestion. 
 
 I should like to have you think over the question whether there 
 should not be a committee appointed before we close this afternoon, 
 a committee to cooperate witn us in developing this matter further. 
 I want to say also that I hope we shall have these proceedings all 
 transcribed, and proof will be sent to each of the gentlemen present 
 of what they have said, and we shall consider it not a discourtesy 
 but a favor if they wiD alter, enlarge, or contract their remarks as 
 they see fit. We shall then hope to have the proceedings in shape 
 for the general use of you all and those whom you may desire to have 
 them, so that the fullest possible hght may be thrown upon the 
 problem. We are not here to lay down law but to get the truth. 
 
 Now along the line of what this commitee might do, and following 
 Secretary Wilson's suggestion: We are in constant touch in the 
 Bureau of Standards with all the great engineering societies of the 
 country; are working w^th them all the time. There is not one of 
 them but has its own committee operating with the Bureau of 
 Standards continuously. We have been for two years at work all 
 the time upon the study of the law of columns ior the American 
 Society of Mechanical Engineers and the American Society of Civil 
 Engineers. There is a constant committee representing each of the 
 great technical societies that cooperates with that service. We are 
 in a position, for example, to take this question that Mr. Olcott 
 referred to, this question of fibei-s, and undertake a study that no 
 paper mill could ever afford to make of the development of fire- 
 proof fiber. W^e have got a paper mill of our own. We have the 
 only plant, I think, in the country which is able to test the fire- 
 resisting quality of materials on a very large scale. We are doing 
 it all the time. We do it on a very large scale, indeed. We take 
 building panels of any material, any kind of material, 16 feet square, 
 and destroy it by fire, employing a uniform, known temperature, 
 know^ing what w^e are about. 
 
 Now all that is at the service of your industrv^ without expense if 
 it wants it, and I think there is hardly one of the great technical 
 industries of the country that is not in touch with the force of 350 
 
28 
 
 scientific men that we have at the Bureau, with the finest research 
 laboratory in the world, which cost over $1,000,000. 
 
 It occurs to me that it may be desirable to have some studies made 
 of the things which are not now done but which ought to be done if 
 it can be done. We are doing that for all sorts of industries, the 
 American Cotton Oil Co. and the electro typing industry. Every 
 steel mill in the Nation operates in accordance with the standards 
 made there. 
 
 That is the thing I want you to have in the back of your minds the 
 rest of the day. In some way I think you ought to have at your beck 
 and call an instant knowledge of what is being done at the Forest 
 Products Laboratory, where wood is being studied in the same 
 scientific way and without any prejudices or foUy. They have 
 developed some very surprising things, too, not for the interest of 
 any man or for any inventor, or anything of that kind, but for the 
 interest of the country at large. We could get very readily a repre- 
 sentative of that very important service who would put at your dis- 
 posal certitude on these matters, free from any manufacturer's 
 interest. 
 
 There are two lines, it seems to me, where the possibilities are open. 
 
 Mr. DuBosque, will you now express your views as frankly as you 
 care to do ? 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. F. L. DuBOSQTJE, ASSISTANT ENGINEER, THE 
 PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CO., NEW YORK, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, the company I am connected with is an enthusiastic 
 advocate of fireproof construction, and we have succeeded in produc- 
 ing fireproof ferryboats, tugboats, and barges; but after listening to 
 the rem; rks made by the gentlemen that have preceded me, I can 
 appreciate the difficulties to be overcome in building a passenger 
 steamer with sleeping accommodations of fireproof construction. 
 
 It is rather a simple problem to build a fireproof freight barge, 
 some difficulties have to be overcome in building a fireproof tugboat, 
 and quite a number of problems are involved in the construction of a 
 fireproof ferryboat. This company fortunately has at its command 
 the facilities of a very complete laboratory and test department, 
 enabling them to experiment with the various fireproof materials that 
 might be used for construction work, and to determine the miimnum 
 steel sections that could be used in the supporting structure, together 
 with the best method of fastening them together. Unfortmiately, 
 very few shipbuilders or shipowners have such complete facilities for 
 making the necessary experiments. 
 
 One of the important features in designing passenger steamers is 
 weight; and while a 10 per cent increase in weight does not seriously 
 affect the efficiency of a ferryboat, this increase would be quite 
 objectionable on the modern passenger steamer, and our experience 
 in experimenting with various fireproof materials leads us to believe 
 there would be considerable difficulty in producing a fireproof passen- 
 ger steamer at this time. However, we believe that some progress 
 should be made in this direction on all steamers, and that a start 
 should be made. 
 
 It would seem proper to commence on ferryboats, but if we do so 
 it would be necessary to classify the tj^e of ferryboat to be so con- 
 
29 
 
 struct ed. Under the law any type of boat from a small lamich 
 upward in size can be construed as a ferryboat. Therefore it seems 
 that it would be somewhat difficult to comply with a law requiring 
 all ferryboats to be of fireproof construction. Instead of enacting 
 a law that would apply to every type of passenger steamer, would 
 it not be better to frame the statute so that your Department would' 
 be the arbiter on the type of construction to be used in these vessels ? 
 Fireproof materials can be used to a considerable extent on all types 
 of boats, and under such an arrangement your Department could, 
 when designs of vessels were submitted to you, incficate what part 
 of the vessel it would be practical to construct of fireproof materials. 
 Rules that apply uniformly to all types of vessels are a mistake, and 
 numerous instances can be cited where this practice interferes with 
 instead of aiding the efficiency in operation and protection to vessels. 
 Rules should be made in such a way that they can be modified to suit 
 the particular type of vessel to which they are applied. 
 
 Your suggestion to appoint a committee to investigate the prac- 
 ticability of fireproof construction is excellent, and w3l result, I am 
 sure, in specifying that certain types of vessels should be of fireproof 
 construction, and a start will then be made on this desirable feature. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. DuBosque, what, in general, was the con- 
 struction that you used upon your fireproof ferryboats ? 
 
 Mr. DuBosque. The hulls are built of steel of the usual con- 
 struction, the deck beams are of steel, the sides of the cabins are of 
 thin steel plate supported by steel stanchions of H section, to which 
 they are riveted. The decks are of steel plates supported by steel 
 angle bar beams. Ferryboats, fortunately, have a bulkliead extend- 
 ing from end to end of the boat and from the main to the upper 
 deck, and this, together with the steel center house, provides an 
 intermediate support for the upper deck beams, which reduces the 
 span of these beams so that very light beams can be used, and in this 
 respect ferryboats have a great advantage over the passenger steamer. 
 The interior of the cabins is covered with panels made of an asbestos 
 cement material and these panels are held in place by steel moldings. 
 There is no exposed wood on this ferryboat except the deck covering 
 in the vehicle space. No substitute could be found for wood for this 
 particular part of the boat. 
 
 The Secretary. The deck underneath that is of steel ? 
 
 Mr. DuBosque. Yes. 
 
 The Secretary. Of what material are the seats in your cabins ? 
 
 Mr. DuBosque. The seats extend continuously along the sides 
 of the cabins, and on the first boat built these were constructed of 
 steel covered with so-called ^ insulating" paint. There was con- 
 siderable objection on the part of the passenger traffic because the 
 seats were cold to sit on, and on the subsequent boats the seat frames 
 were made of steel, covered with cherry slats three-fourths inch 
 thick. 
 
 The Secretary. How many boats of the general fireproof class 
 have you operating ? 
 
 Mr. DuBosque. Four. 
 
 The Secretary. Are they of a standard type ? 
 
 Mr. DuBosque. They are of a standard type and similar. Future 
 boats will be built of this type with such improvements as we can 
 make. 
 
30 
 
 The Secretary. I will ask Mr. Croker, former fire chief, to express 
 his views to us. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. EDWARD F. CROKER, EX CHIEF NEW YORK 
 FIRE DEPARTMENT, NEW YORK, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have been very much interested in 
 the discussion, both pro and con. During my experience in the New 
 York fire department naturally I have been to a great many fires 
 and a great many fires on various kinds of boats. At that time I 
 was also a member of the building department and a member of the 
 board of examiners of New York. The building department, of 
 course, approves all plans for construction of boats, etc. The board 
 of examiners acts as a board of appeals from the superintendent of 
 builders. If any builder objects to the superintendent of builders, 
 he has a right to appeal to the board of examiners. Therefore they 
 can never lay down any rule that would cover all buildings in New 
 York. The same is true with the construction of boats, wdth the 
 supervision of boats. You can not build them all ahke. One boat 
 may require sprinklers and another boat may not require them. 
 Some boats may be built semifireproof and some should not be. It 
 has been my experience, Mr. Secretary, that you can not lay down 
 any hard and fast rules. 
 
 But your remarks on the opening of our meeting seemed to me to 
 strike the nail on the head. Fires should not occur, and if they do 
 they should not be allowed to extend. My experience with fixes has 
 been that 99 fires out of every 100 are due to what you may call poor 
 housekeeping; boats are not properlj inspected, accumulation of 
 dirt, of rubbish, of oil waste. The paint rooms on a majority of the 
 boats ought not be aboard a boat. Your rope rooms, your galleys, 
 your quarters for your help, particularly for men, are breeders. I 
 have been aboard a number of boats, one last summer, outside of 
 New York Harbor. I wiU not mention any name. I asked the 
 captain if he would have a fire driU. He said, " AU right; good idea." 
 He sounded his fire alarm. Some of the men came to quarters: 
 They did not know whether it was on the port side or on the star- 
 board side. They did not know where boat No. 1 was nor where 
 boat No. 8 was. They lowered a boat and did not know how to row. 
 Such things as that are what cause loss of life. 
 
 When they go to inspect a building in New York they go to the 
 breeders, not to the high-class buildings. A lot of the boats floating 
 around our harbors, many of them around New York, ought not to 
 be allowed afloat. The companies that own good boats, the Albany 
 Day Line and others, have got to be the sufferers. It is unfair to 
 estabhsh fast rules. It would not be fair to have someone come 
 along here [indicating] and put up a 4 or 5 story frame building which 
 would jeopardize you. 
 
 A great many things can be done to decrease the fire hazard. I 
 saw a test of a fireproof paiat made by the department of docks and 
 the department of bridges, which they adopted. The paint does 
 not cost any more than ordinary paint. They tested it by blowpipes 
 until they burned a hole through an inch board, and it d.id not take 
 fire. 
 
 The air alarms, such as they use on the Albany Day Line, I think 
 are the best detector of anything I ever saw. You take a newspaper 
 
31 
 
 in this corner of the room and have your air alarm in that corner of 
 the room [indicating], and light it, and the heat generated by that 
 newspaper in 15 to 25 or 30 seconds will give the alarm. It costs 
 very little and is very efficient. 
 
 My experience has not been very great with fiber boards. 
 
 Some gentlemen here spoke about air spaces. It has always been 
 a custom of firemen throughout the country to stop all air spaces 
 where possible. Air spaces are where your fire will get away from 
 
 Asbestos board was also mentioned. Asbestos board is very nice 
 and absolutely fireproof, but it is heavy and expensive. 
 
 In the fire department of New York they approved fireproof wood 
 for several years, but found out that the wood would deteriorate in 
 time. We have had a number of fires in buildings furnished with 
 fireproof wood which have been quite serious. 
 
 As to sprinkler systems for boats, on all freight-carrying and 
 passenger boats, I think they should be equipped with sprinklers. 
 They have advanced to a state of perfection. They are practically 
 new, so far as boats are concerned, but there is not a bit of differ- 
 ence between the equipment of a boat and that in a building. 
 
 Dry systems: From a fire standpoint, we never depend on manual 
 when we can get automatic. If there is a panic, maybe a little 
 water on some of them would quiet their panic. A crowd is queer. 
 The police sometimes disperse a crowd by sprinkling a little water 
 on them. 
 
 Wire glass can be used on boats to good effect. Wire glass set in 
 metal frames is an A No. 1 fire retard er. The principal thin^ is to 
 prevent your fire; do not let it occur. Have proper inspection of 
 your boats to see that everything is kept clean; have your fire appli- 
 ances inspected monthly; have an organization on board your vessel 
 to handle your fire appliances and to know what to do in case any- 
 thing happens. 
 
 There is no reason why people should take a panic just because a 
 little fire occurs. It is easy to put it out with proper equipment and 
 proper organization. 
 
 They claim there is not much danger of fire on these excursion 
 boats; but the Slocum, within 500 feet of shore, lost 1,000 people. 
 They could have run their nose ashore any time they wanted to. 
 And other boats — the North German Lloyd liner in Hoboken was 
 burned — and look how many people were lost and how many other 
 ships were destroyed there. 
 
 The Albany Day Line boats: I think if the majority of aU boat 
 builders would take an example from the construction, care, main- 
 tenance, and cleanliness of their boats, we would have very few fires, 
 because they certainly have gone to the extreme on construction and 
 fire appliances and maintenance and inspection and drills. 
 
 There is a lot more to be said about fires and one thing and another, 
 but many of the people here are in a hurry to get home, and I will 
 not take any more time, I shall be glad to answer any questions. 
 
 Mr. Taylor. Mr. Croker, you said there was no reason why people 
 should get into a panic in the case of a small fire, did you not ? 
 
 Mr. Croker. I meant the crews on board the boats. I should like 
 to correct that. People are the most panicky things on earth. In 
 
32 
 
 the case of the Triangle fire they jumped out of an 11-story window 
 when they could have run downstairs. 
 
 Mr. Bkock. Mr. Croker, what has been your experience with metal 
 furniture in fires in New York ? Have you found that it burned up ? 
 Have you found that it acted as a retardant ? 
 
 Mr. Croker. I never knew it to burn up. 
 
 Mr. Brock. The statement was made that steel would burn up. 
 Would you consider a steel building equipped with steel furniture as 
 absolutely fireproof ? 
 
 Mr. Croker. No. 
 
 Mr. Brock. An entire steel equipment ? 
 
 Mr. Croker. No. 
 
 Mr. Brock. With nothing combustible inside the building? 
 
 Mr. Croker. Of course, you can take a stove without any fire in 
 it and it is incombustible — do not have any fire in it, or any fuel, or 
 anything else, then it is fireproof. 
 
 A Voice. I have heard it stated — as a matter of fact, take the 
 Iroquois Theater in Chicago — that was a fireproof building, but more 
 people were lost there than on the General Slocum; I have heard it 
 stated that the proportion was greater. 
 
 Mr. Croker. The people were lost by panic. There were only 12 
 of the audience that the flames came near; they were '^ smoked up" — 
 suffocated. 
 
 The Same Voice. But their lives were lost; it was the same thing. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you very much, Mr. Croker. 
 
 Mr. Magoun, we shall be glad to hear from you if you care to express 
 your views. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY A. MAGOUN, VICE PRESIDENT, NEW 
 YORK SHIPBUILDING CO., CAMDEN, N. J. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have very little to say. A ship- 
 builder is in a different position from an owner. He has two posi- 
 tions, so to speak. He tries to build what is given to him to build, and 
 at other times he both designs and builds. In the case of our com- 
 pany, we have built some of the boats which have been spoken about 
 here to-day. We built two of the Hudson Kiver Day Line boats, 
 and one of the Pennsylvania ferryboats. And I want to correct any 
 impression there may be that the owners are not anxious and trying 
 to do all they can to prevent fire. All owners I have had to deal 
 with are anxious to do so as far as the state of the art gives them 
 any knowledge of how to do it. We are constantly changing and 
 improving, and the shipbuilder is always willing to do all he can, so 
 far as his knowledge goes, to help the owners. 
 
 It is very true that it is impossible to make a rule which can be 
 universally applied to all vessels. We have so many different kinds 
 of vessels, as well as of construction, that I do not know how it can 
 be done. The suggestion of appointing a committee is probably the 
 most practicable way to accomplish anything. It has been stated 
 to-day, referring to construction on the Lakes, that no passenger 
 boats were being built. It is about the same thing in all the yards 
 on the coast. They are building all kinds of freight vessels. 
 
 The owners are keenly alive to the possibility of fire and are doing 
 aU that they can to prevent it. I may mention one thing. We 
 
33 
 
 frequently speak of a fireproof structure. I have always been brought 
 up to believe it was perhaps an impossibility. If the thing itself is 
 fireproof, the contents are not. The first iniormation I ever had on 
 the subject came from Edward Atkinson, who explained the slow- 
 burning principle at great length. It is our practice to make them 
 slow burning. 
 
 The Seceetary. Gentlemen, the time for luncheon has come. We 
 have had a very frank discussion. I think, although it is a ''town 
 meeting," we have managed to have some very frank talk, and I hope 
 we shaU have more. "W^at I should like to have happen this after- 
 noon is to have you select a committee — I do not want to select it — 
 to have you select a committee which may cooperate with the Depart- 
 ment, very much as the committees of the technical societies of which 
 I spoke are doing all the time, and make a more or less continuous 
 study of this matter. 
 
 We have an example here of the value of such a committee. The 
 motor-boat law of this country is about as bad as it can be. If I got 
 started to talking of the faults of the motor-boat laws you would 
 never get any lunch; but we had a conference just like this, perhaps 
 the father of this. We went into all the ends and comers and sides 
 of the motor-boat business; and the bill which is pending in Congress 
 is unanimously supported by the motor-boat people. It arose out of 
 a conference and out of the labors of that committee, which chewed 
 the subject over for many months and ended by unanimous agree- 
 ment. Their report did not embody the extreme things some of 
 them desired, but they got together, in a common-sense, practical 
 way, on what was, after all, a very considerable advance. 
 
 That, I think, we might accomplish here; and so, before we meet 
 again — I would suggest 2.30 p. m., if that is not too early or too 
 late for you — let us think that over and see if we can this afternoon 
 get a committee appointed without any rigid rules — a committee 
 which can add to its number as freely as it desires and can do any- 
 thing it chooses on the subject — and at least get a start. We want 
 such a committee to guide us against making mistakes. We 
 need to be guided against mistakes as much as anybody else — if we 
 beheve the newspapers, more so — and we will try not to make any 
 more mistakes in the matter than that committee will let us. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 12.37 p. m., the conference was adjourned until 
 2.30 p. m.) 
 
AFTERNOON SESSION (2.30 O'CLOCK). 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Goodrich, your name was mentioned this 
 morning, and we would like very much to get upon the record a 
 statement of your experience in protecting the vessels of your com- 
 pany from fire, especially with the automatic sprinklers you are using. 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We have some steamers equipped with the auto- 
 matic sprinkler system, known as the dry-pipe system. The others 
 are equipped with open-head sprinklers. They are arranged in 
 groups — rather a crude affair. 
 
 The Secretary. When you speak of open sprinklers you refer to 
 those manually opened, I suppose ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes; by a valve in the engine room, and the valve 
 permits the water to flow through a given number of heads at the 
 same time, covering a given area. 
 
 The SECRETARY'. You say it is the dry-pipe system. 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We could not use anything else because some of 
 the boats we have operate the year around. In weather such as we 
 have on Lake Michigan, it being frequently several degrees below 
 zero, anything that contained water would be useless. 
 
 The Secretary. Where do you carry your reserve water supply ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We do not carry any. 
 
 The Secretary. You do not carry any ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. No, sir; not for the sprinkler system. 
 
 The Secretary. You carry air pressure ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. The air pressure in the pipes of the automatic 
 sprinkler system is maintained by a small air compressor. When 
 the pressure is relieved by a sprinkler-head opening the pump con- 
 nected with it starts pumping automatically. There is always steam 
 on it and generally is in motion, moving very slowly. The other 
 pumps intended for pumping water on the boat are so connected that 
 they can be thrown into the sprinkler system. 
 
 The Secretary. So that you depend upon the acceleration of the 
 pump to supply you with water ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. You do not use any reserve water at all ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. No, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. Has there been any occasion for the system to 
 work at a fire ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We never had a fire on any one of the three boats 
 on which we have the automatic system. We have tested it at dif- 
 ferent times by taking a torch and touching off a head just to see the 
 thing work, but it has never been used in an actual fire to my knowl- 
 
 The Secretary. Did it work when you tested it each time ? 
 Mr. Goodrich. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Secretary. Your largest boat is the GJiristopher Columbus f 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir. 
 
 (34) 
 
35 
 
 The Secketary. What have you done in the construction of the 
 vessel in the way of fireproof materials ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We did not build her. We bought her. 
 
 The Secretary. Where was she built ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. At Duluth, or really at West Superior, across the 
 harbor from Duluth. 
 
 The Secretary. Has she no special appliances for fire ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. There is nothing on her to burn. She has three 
 heavy steel decks, without any wood on them; that is, her main deck 
 has no wood on it, the deck above that has some wood finish, and 
 the deck above that has a wooden floor laid upon it, a light wooden 
 floor; and sprinkler system. 
 
 The Secretary. What are the houses made of ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Wood. 
 
 The Secretary. Have you used any bulkheads to restrict 
 
 Mr. Goodrich (interrupting). No; there is nothing in her at all. 
 Of course she is a peculiarly designed thing. Her stairways are all 
 isolated in steel inclosures. 
 
 The Secretary. Did you do that ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. No ; that was there originally. 
 
 The Secretary. She is of the whaleback type ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. If you were to build another, and based upon 
 your experience with her, what would you do with regard to restrict- 
 ing fire ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Well, we would not build one, to start with. 
 
 The Secretary. What I want to get at is, what lessons do you 
 think can be learned from the experience with the vessel as regards 
 fire-restricting construction ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. I do not know. That is a rather unending discus- 
 sion. It all depends upon the type of vessel and what you want to 
 accomplish and what you are going to use it for; where she is going. 
 So many things enter into it that it is rather difficult to answer 
 offhand. 
 
 The Secretary. Does anyone wish to ask Mr. Goodrich a question ? 
 
 Mr. Myrick. Mr. Goodrich, I had the pleasure of seeing your ship 
 the AlabaTna, I think it is. 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. Would you be good enough to tell us about her con- 
 struction ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Well, in what respect? 
 
 Mr. Myrick. In all respects so far as the hull is concerned. She 
 has steel decks. She is built of steel ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. She has two steel decks, has she not ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. So that the only woodwork you have practically, 
 outside of that down below, is in your superstructure ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. That is aU. She is all steel below. There is no 
 wood below the main deck. Everything below the main deck is 
 steel. The main deck is steel. The engine room is in a steel inclo- 
 sure, and goes up about 30 inches above her upper deck and the same 
 around the smokestack casing. Then she is automatically sprinkled. 
 AU the inside staterooms have sprinkler heads in them. 
 
36 
 
 The Secretary. On the same system ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Yes. 
 
 The Secretary. Did you take into account the question of panic 
 when you put in those automatic sprinklers ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. No. Our idea was to save the boat in case of fire. 
 
 The Secretary. Are you not afraid that when she is crowded 
 with passengers some day there may be great excitement from the 
 breaking of a pipe ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. We can not help that. We can not guarantee 
 everybody's sanity. We simply went at it with the idea of saving 
 the boat and making it as foolproof as possible. That is why we 
 believe in the automatic sprinkler as against the open-head sprinkler. 
 
 The Secretary. So far as the system is concerned 
 
 Mr. Goodrich (interrupting). We have had no trouble with it. 
 It has of course a great advantage over the open-head system because 
 of the smaller quantity of water required. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. Mr. Goodrich, what system of automatic control 
 have you for the sprinkler heads ? 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. I think the company that did the work was the 
 General Fire Extinguisher Co., of Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. I understood from Mr. Goodrich that it was a dry- 
 pipe system. I want to know by what means they transmit the 
 water back to the place where they operate this 
 
 Mr. Goodrich (mterrupting) . By the hberation of the pressure 
 of the air. When the head opens the air rushes out and the water 
 follows it. 
 
 The Secretary. It works automatically, 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. Just the same as any dry-pipe system that you 
 put in an unheated building. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Benns, have you any suggestions? 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES P. BENNS, ASSISTANT MANAGER 
 UNDERWRITERS' ASSOCIATION OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 
 WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have only one thought that occurs 
 to me now and that is, that on land a great deal has been done in the 
 way of fireproofing and of fire protection. Many lessons have been 
 learned. It is undoubtedly not possible to transfer those things 
 bodily to the marine field. Nevertheless, I befieve that the funda- 
 mental principles are the same. When you started the discussion 
 this morning, Mr. Secretary, you spoke of the work of Mr. Atkinson, 
 who not only formulated the problem as you outlined it but who 
 
 Proceeded along very definite lines under each one of those particular 
 eads. In the first place, for the prehminarv extinguishment of the 
 fire, or rather, we may say, that the fire might not occur, he used to 
 the extreme the good housekeeping that Chief Croker spoke about. 
 In order that the fire might not spread, he did away entirely with the 
 construction which called for concealed places, making everything 
 of solid wood and the exposed surfaces smooth, so far as was humanly 
 possible, and if the fire did start and did spread he applied the auto- 
 matic sprinkler for its extinguishment and control. 
 
 Those same things, of course, apply to the work that has been done 
 on shipboard and on the steamboats, but my thought is that it would 
 be most unfortunate to attempt to take the sprinkler system as we 
 
37 
 
 are familiar with it in buildings and transfer it bodily to a steamboat. 
 The questions in regard to reserve water supply, the questions in 
 regard to the size of pipe — all of those things I think can be modified ac- 
 cording to the conditions found on shipboard. As regards the question 
 of the subdivision of the vessel, I think we can learn a good deal from 
 the conditions of the subdivision of buildings, but no one of course 
 would think of putting up a terra cotta wall on board ship to make 
 the division. On the other hand, a great deal of experiment, a great 
 deal of experience, is concentrated in what we know now as standard 
 tin-covered fire door; that is, one in which there is a wooden core, 
 made very rigid, very smooth, covered with tin in small sheets. Of 
 course those things are all details, but after all it seems too bad that 
 our marine engineering friends are still experimenting with woodwork, 
 with large sheets that are insufficiently fastened to the wood and 
 which are absolutely necessary, judged by the experience on shore, 
 to the protection of the wood. 
 
 The Secretary. How do you fasten those sheets together ? Are 
 they not crimped, and nailed under the crimps ? 
 
 Mr. Benns. Yes. As you suggested this morning, the sheets are 
 so arranged that you get naihng all over the surface. The forerunner 
 of that was the single sheet. Tne single sheet had to be of appreciable 
 thickness in order to enable it to be nailed and not have the nails 
 tear through. That door has stood all sorts of fires. It has been 
 improved. I suppose that that standard metal-covered door has 
 been experimentea with for the last 20 years and is used for openings 
 up to approximately 8 or 9 feet square. We think we have got a 
 pretty good method of closing that particular kind of opening. It 
 seems as though it ought to be possible to extend that fundamental 
 principle to the making of a bulkhead across a vessel which would 
 not be excessively heavy and which would resist the fire that it may 
 be subjected to. 
 
 My thought is that in the formation of this committee that is imder 
 discussion to-day there should be some member that will serve as a 
 very close fine of connection between the experience of the under- 
 writers in taking care of fire risks on shore and the skiU and experience 
 of the marine designers and those that are altogether more competent 
 to judge of that side of the question. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Benns, am I correct in recaUing that it is 
 considered good practice to keep those doors bright and not have 
 them painted ? 
 
 Mr. Benns. I befieve they are not laying as great stress upon 
 that now as was formerly the case. Of course, I think it is quite 
 well recognized that fire wiU flash over a painted surface. Chief 
 Croker spoke this morning of fire-resisting paint. It occurs to me 
 that many times in repairing a building that has been subjected to 
 fire we simply ask that the charred surface of it be scraped off and 
 then give it a coat of whitewash. Under ordinary conditions the pres- 
 ence of that whitewash wiU not make it as liable to fire as if it was 
 exposed. 
 
 The Secretary. I thank you very much, Mr. Benns. Does any- 
 one want to ask Mr. Benns an^^ questions ? 
 
 Mr. French, you are the chief surveyor of Lloyd's Register of 
 Shipping ? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir. 
 
38 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES FRENCH, CHIEF SURVEYOR OF LLOYD'S 
 REGISTER OF SHIPPING, NEW YORK, N. Y. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, the subject before us appeals to me 
 both from a public and from a naval architect's point of view, and 
 from the latter viewpoint the question is certainl}^ fraught with 
 difficulties. 
 
 I would like to say straight off that I do not think it is possible to 
 design any vessel to be both practical and fireproof, but at the same 
 time we can go a long way toward minimizing the danger and spread 
 of fire by adopting methods of fire fighting and fire resisting. 
 
 Of the vessels at present under discussion I consider that quite a 
 different standard should apply to the Lake or Sound type of boats 
 which carry a large number of passengers throughout the night as 
 compared with dayhght excursion and similar class of steamers which 
 are never far from land and where practically every part of the vessel 
 is under almost constant observation by some one or other. 
 
 The question of sprinklers and fire-fighting appHances has been 
 discussed pretty fully, and I consider a great deal can be done toward 
 securing quite reasonable safety in this latter type of vessel by such 
 means. In the former type I consider the actual design of the vessel 
 should be made to some extent subservient to a system of fire -resisting 
 bulkheads, so as to limit the spread of any outbreak which for the 
 time being might get beyond control of the fire fighters, due to its 
 not being detected in time. 
 
 In a discussion of this sort there is so much to say and so manji 
 to say it that I fear we can only generalize, but I have no doubt that 
 if a committee is formed, as suggested, representative of naval 
 architects, owners, sprinkler engineers, and others tentative recom- 
 mendations could very well be drawn up with every possibility of 
 arriving at something which, while not fireproof, might approach it. 
 
 The Secretary. That is a very comforting thought, Mr. French, 
 coming from a man of your experience. 
 
 Mr. French. The whole subject wiU require careful thought and 
 must eventually result in a compromise between the safety of the 
 traveling public and their comfort while traveling. I think your 
 committee must bear this in mind and when they have elucidated 
 everything of value from our present discussion and added to it 
 from their further experience, it might be presented in the form of a 
 concise report for still further discussion. 
 
 The Secretary. Have another conference later. 
 
 Mr. French. Yes; it would be impossible for a conference of this 
 size to draw up such a report. 
 
 The Secretary. Your idea would be to have the committee think 
 this thing over and then come together later. 
 
 Capt. Phinney, is it not a fact mat a wooden, standard, tin-covered 
 door such as is standard with the Associated Factory Mutual Fire 
 Insurance Cos. resists fire very much longer than a steel or iron door? 
 
 Capt. Phinney. By far. We have nothing that will compare 
 with it, as this gentleman has said, in our experience, nothing at all, 
 and we do not accept steel doors. 
 
 The Secretary. In other words, this standard fire door you 
 would accept and do accept while you would not accept a steel door. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. We accept it even in the center of a fire cut-off 
 wall. We know that fire wiU not pass through that opening if it is 
 
39 
 
 well equipped with a standard fire door, and especially if there are 
 two doors, one on each side of the opening, which we always require 
 where values are large. 
 
 We have had some little unfortunate experiences with the rolling 
 steel door. We were rather captivated with that at first, but recent 
 occurrences have shown that we can not place too much dependence 
 on it when the exposure is very severe. The tin-covered fire door is 
 clumsy, not very heavy, but tnere is nothing we know of at present 
 that will equal it. 
 
 The Secretary. It has been tested out in very many cases. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Yes, a great many years. 
 
 The Secretary. I remember my own experience of having a heavy 
 brick wall between two factories and you allowed me to cut a hole 
 in it. The door was very inexpensive to maintain, as I recall it, 
 but quite thick. 
 
 Capt. Phinney. Yes. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Gillette, I have not called upon any one of 
 our Department friends before to-day so I would like now to have 
 your views. Mr. Gillette is Superintendent of Naval Construction 
 of the Bureau of Lighthouses. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. E. C. GILLETTE, SUPERINTENDENT OF NAVAL 
 CONSTRUCTION, BUREAU OF LIGHTHOUSES, WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 I do not know that I have very much to say in this matter. My 
 experience in our Bureau is not along the passenger line, as you 
 know; but in lightship and tender construction we have made a 
 considerable effort to provide against fires. At the present time we 
 have one or two vessels under construction where we are using sheet 
 steel for interior bulkheads with very good success, although their 
 weight is in excess of what they would be in wood. In one ligjit 
 vessel we are using an inside ceiling for protection against sweating, 
 a protected metal, sample of which is in the Secretary's hands, which 
 is a galvanized-iron sheet covered with asbestos on each side. I 
 believed that would answer the purpose intended and take paint a 
 little better. It is deemed better not to have bare metal exposed in 
 the living quarters. In one of our vessels building on the west coast 
 we are putting in steel bulkheads throughout, as the crew will not 
 be very large and as we shaU carry inflammable cargoes such as ^as 
 tanks, cases of oil, etc., and the vessel also wiU bum oil under its 
 boilers for fuel. 
 
 The Secretary. How high do the bulkheads come ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. Above the main deck. Except in the living quar- 
 ters the bulkheads are aU of heavy steel, three-sixteenths inch plate. 
 In the living quarters it is of lighter construction, stiffened with plate 
 pilasters, angles, etc. 
 
 The Secretary. Are there any wooden houses on the vessel ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. No, sir; the only wood on the vessel is the upper 
 deck and the tops of the houses. We thought best to put wood in 
 these places on account of the heat. In exposed places where the 
 sun is hot a steel deck is almost unbearable — in the case of turtle- 
 back vessels in the South it is the same — it is almost unbearable to 
 live in, and for that reason we put on a wooden deck and paint it weU. 
 
40 
 
 The Secretary. You designed the new Coast Survey steamer Sur- 
 veyor, now building. What did you do on that ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. I assisted in the design of this vessel. On that ves- 
 sel there is no sprinkler system. They rely on the fire pump and 
 mains and steam-smothering system throughout the vessel, it has 
 steel main and lower decks and the upper deck is of wood. The 
 vessel is of a modern type of construction. 
 
 The Secretary. But the construction of the new Cedar you spoke 
 of was exceptional because of the inflammable nature of the cargo 
 she carried. 
 
 Mr. Gillette. Yes; it is for use in charging gas buoys, carrying 
 gas buoys, gas tanks, oil, etc., and supplies for the Lighthouse Service. 
 There might be a possibility of a severe fire on this vessel and we 
 wanted to be able to cope with it to the best advantage, under all 
 occasions, and was so considered in the preparation of the design. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you regard that as substantially fireproof ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. Not absolutely, but better than other vessels of this 
 Service. I think some of the gentlemen brought out this morning 
 that the personal equation is one of the most important things in the 
 matter oi fire on shipboard. A weU-discipHned crew properly sta- 
 tioned and trained by actual tests and drills held at regular intervals 
 is one of the most important things in the whole matter. We, of 
 course, hold fire and boat driUs at intervals of one month at least, in 
 the Lighthouse Service, which is, I believe, in accordance with the 
 practice of the Navy, and I think also of other departments. So 
 if the men are properly stationed, each man has his own particular 
 duty to perform and knows what to do. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you very much. 
 
 The Secretary. Capt. McGray, what have you to say to us ? 
 
 STATEMENT OF CAPT. ARTHUR N. McGRAY, REPRESENTATIVE 
 OF NEPTUNE ASSOCIATION, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Mr. Secretary. My attention was called, I think, by the first 
 speaker this morning, Mr. Taylor, when he was describing the Hud- 
 son River passenger boats, to steamers in general as floating hotJels. 
 I was impressed at once by the fact that he only told a smaU part of 
 the story. The bulk of the great passenger-carrying ship of to-day, 
 without any question, is a floating warehouse filled with all kinds of 
 material upon which is superimposed a hotel — three, four, or five 
 stories of warehouse and tnen two, three, or four stories of hotel 
 accommodation — which makes considerable of a large problem to 
 deal with. Of course, that is extreme ; that is the limit. 
 
 And so, Mr. Secretary, when I received your much-appreciated 
 invitation to attend this hearing I thought it might be a good plan to 
 see what some other people had found out about fires on shipboard 
 and what relation they have to fires on shore, which naturallj^ have 
 received a good deal more attention from scientific authorities on 
 account of the greater number of them than has been the case on 
 shipboard. I thought I would look into that somewhat and see, in 
 the limited time at my disposal, how much I could learn that might 
 bear upon this point. As I can perhaps read better than I can 
 speak offhand, with your permission I will read what I have got 
 together. 
 
41 
 
 (Reading.) 
 
 Secretary Redfield's letter, asking me to be present at this time, 
 stated that the primary purpose of the meeting was to consider the 
 whole subject of making passenger vessels more secure from destruc- 
 tion by fire. I do not understand that the discussion is to be limited 
 to those p^senger vessels which carry no freight at all, and I cer- 
 tainly hope such is not the case, because it seems to me, as a ship- 
 master who has had experience with the matter of fighting fii-es afloat, 
 that it is among that great class of combination passenger and cargo 
 steamers that the danger is greatest and where fire protection is 
 most needed. 
 
 Most passenger vessels, as a matter of fact, are also freight carriers 
 to a greater or lesser degree, except in the case of purely excursion 
 steamers, and it would seem that any protection «,gainst fire devised 
 for a combination of freight and passenger boat would also be the 
 best kind of protection for the purely passenger vessel. 
 
 I well remember a number of fires in the bulk sulphur cargoes 
 of the steamers Herman, FrascTi, and Frieda during my command of 
 those ships. Theoretically, the best means of extinguishing a sul- 
 phur fire is for a shovel brigade to heap on more sulphur and smother 
 the fire. This plan, however, works poorly in practice, as it is impos- 
 sible to know exactly what is happening underneath, and the con- 
 finement of the gases, which generate very rapidly when sulphur 
 begins to fuse, presents an explosive menace which it were well to 
 avoid. I have used steam jets from the standard fire-smothering 
 equipment of the ship on several occasions, but to little or no pur- 
 pose. The liberal use of water has been the only adequate answer 
 I have discovered so far, but on two occasions this involved entering 
 a hold filled with strong sulphurous fumes in order to direct the 
 hose effectively. The risk to be incurred appeared greater than I 
 felt justified in ordering officers or crew to accept, so the only road 
 open was to personallj|^ handle both hose and nozzle. I was im- 
 pressed at this time with the fact that it was not my boat itself 
 which was burning or which was in imminent danger, but that it 
 was the cargo within that boat. 
 
 In looking into this matter, I have been strongly impressed with 
 the fact that it is the cargo or the contents of a boat that deserves 
 the chief consideration. In his book, Fire and Fire Fighters, former 
 Chief Kenlon, of New York, presents in a striking way the nature of 
 steamer cargoes, by giving the following description of freight on a 
 New York pier: 
 
 Fill these sheds with every sort of combustible material imaginable — ^hogsheads 
 of rosin, bales of cotton, crated furniture, barrels of pitch, stacks of dry goods, and 
 such unconsidered trifles as a few boxes of celluloid toys and novelties — and can 
 the mind of man conceive a collection of heterogeneous merchandise more calculated 
 to provide the wherewithal for a conflagration and matter to assuage the thirsty pens 
 of all the newspaper reporters in the town? 
 
 All of this material was simply the cargo of boats which had not 
 yet been loaded. To a greater or lesser degree, many of our pas- 
 senger-carrying ships have cargoes of a similar nature, and I am 
 of the opinion that such cargoes as a whole are in the last analysis 
 as dangerous as the most dangerous part of them. I think I am 
 right in saying that the insurance people in making a rate on a 
 building on shore would select as a part of that rate the most haz- 
 
42 
 
 ardous occupancy in the building. I am also further impressed that 
 only by a full consideration of the expert findings of fire insurance 
 experts and architectural designers on land can we best inform our- 
 selves as to the most practicable and efficient manner of successfully 
 deahng with fire-prevention problems on shipboard. 
 
 The result of a fire on board ship is so well known that it would 
 hardly seem necessary to dwell on the f rightfulness of such an occur- 
 rence, but in Chief Kenlon's book there is an account of the burning 
 of the steamship Saale, which it seems to me is worth repeating, in 
 order that we may have this picture clearly before us: 
 
 The Saale, in the very heart of the flames, was cast loose and drifted slowly into 
 the stream, a menace to shipping and a veritable funeral pyre to those on board. 
 Hundreds of desperate creatures jumped overboard and were picked up by passing 
 boats; but hundreds of others were less lucky and were roasted to death m the depths 
 of that floating inferno. Little could be seen of their plight, but as fire boats sur- 
 rounded the smoking hull, faint cries from the lower ports attracted attention. Sud- 
 denly a naked arm shot out through the murk, and a voice cracked with terror 
 screamed for help. Rescuers placed a hose line in the grasp of the quivering hand, 
 and as the water brought temporary relief, the crazed sufferer was understood to 
 say that with him were forty-odd men and women awaiting their doom. A des- 
 perate effort was made to haul him through the port, but his shoulders prevented 
 his escape, and even as he was making one supreme effort to dodge death, a wisp 
 of flame shot wickedly out from behind him and branded him with its fiery tongue. 
 With a shriek of demoniacal laughter, he surrendered himself to his agony, and fell 
 back — to be seen no more. 
 
 We are here to devise ways and means for preventing the recurrence 
 of such harrowing scenes as Chief Kenlon has described. The boat 
 he mentions was burning thus fiercely primarily because her contents 
 were inflammable. But boats can not pick and choose their freight 
 cargoes. 
 
 In addition to these fire dangers in the contents of a boat, we must 
 remember that the living quarters of such vessels also have fire dan- 
 gers of their own, which are most comparable, perhaps, to the hazards 
 of a hotel on shore. We should therefore bear m mind that fires in 
 hotels are of very frequent occurrence. For instance, on the first day 
 of 1913, five hotels were destroyed, with a loss of two lives and 
 $100,000. The total amount of fires in such properties durmg the 
 month of January of that year was $700,000. In fact, it is estimated 
 that during the last five years fire losses in hotels in the United States 
 and Canada have been $25,000,000 — on the average, one hotel burn- 
 ing up every 33 hours. (These figures are from Chief Kenlon s book, 
 pp. 170-171.) 
 
 A boat is happily removed, except when in port, from the danger 
 of spreading fires such as a building is subject to, and this is another 
 reason why it seems to me that what we should chiefly be interested 
 in is the means of guardmg against fires which start in the contents 
 of our ships. I believe it is well known that the values on land and 
 the losses on land by fire are chiefly in the contents of buildiags. In 
 the Spectator Year Book for 1914 may be foimd the following figures: 
 
 Year. 
 
 Insurance 
 in force. 
 
 T,(KS, build- 
 ing. 
 
 Loss, con- 
 tents. 
 
 1912 
 
 $100 
 100 
 
 $1.48 
 1.00 
 
 $17. 17 
 
 1913 
 
 8.93 
 
 
 
43 
 
 This, of course, represents millions of dollars of fires reduced to a 
 SI 00 unit for the sake of comparison. 
 
 I am prompted to go further into this matter of the danger of con- 
 tents, because I noted in the Secretary's report several references to 
 fireproof construction. As a former shipmaster, I am deeply inter- 
 ested in how it is possible to escape this danger of serious fires in 
 cargoes by means of any change in the construction of vessels. 
 
 Chief Kenlon's book and this reference to fireproof construction 
 set me to looking into the matter of contents and fireproof construc- 
 tion. I am not an engineer, and the points I shall raise are merely 
 statements of men who have studied the subject. I raise them in 
 an effort to get information and to encourage full discussion. For 
 instance, the late 1 . C. Moore, prominent insurance statistician and 
 rate maker, who I believe was chiefly responsible for the present 
 method of making insurance rates, says of fireproof construction : 
 
 The fireproof structure, as already stated, holds its merchandise and other contents 
 suspended where they will be the more effectually destroyed. 
 
 A further reason why the contents of fireproof buildings are so thoroughly destroyed 
 when once ignited, is that the fireproof construction, like a reverberating furnace 
 or oven, confines the heat until extremely high temperatures are reached. The prin- 
 cipal advantage after all, therefore, of a fireproof building is the separation of the 
 various stories from each other; and this may be largely, if not entirely lost, if the 
 building has well holes, like the Home Building, or if staircases and elevators 
 are not cut off in fireproof hallways. Architects usually overlook the fact that iron 
 may so expand under heat as to thrust out the side walls of a building; if, indeed, 
 iron columns do not collapse under their weakened capacity to resist strains, due 
 to high temperature. It is a fact that wooden columns, especially of oak. ]2 inches 
 square, would stand an enormously high temperature without having their carry- 
 ing capacity interfered with, fire only burning to the depth of, say, 2 inches. 
 
 Indeed, it is important that iron should be protected by fireproof materials wherever 
 used. 
 
 How on shipboard are we to even fireproof the steel or iron parts 
 of a boat, as pointed out in the last paragraph above. More 
 important, how can we expect such construction as is possible 
 of being designed for ships to protect the contents of those ships? 
 I beUeve that the fire underwriters maintain that each floor of a 
 building must be cut off from every other floor by fireproof material; 
 that the windows of such structures must be of wire glass with 
 metal frames, if the building is to be thoroughly fireproof. How 
 do we propose to cut off the decks of a ship? How do we propose 
 to stop fires from spreading from one stateroom to another through 
 the windows ? Would an insurance rater regard the ventilatiag metn- 
 ods employed on most ships iq the same way that he would regard 
 openings from floor to floor in a building? J. K. Freitag, in his 
 book. Fire Prevention and Fire Protection, says: 
 
 As a matter of fact, it will be found that the type of construction will make little 
 difference in insurance costs, for the following reasons: 
 
 (1) The value of contents is usually far greater than the value of building. 
 
 (2) The value and character of contents, rather than the t>T)e of construction, 
 will usually determine the amount of fire protection necessary. 
 
 (3) Any possible saving in insurance rates which might be effected by the use 
 of concrete construction would be very small as compared with the total, for the 
 reason that practically all fire losses to-day in mills or factories of standard construction 
 are confined to contents, and insurance rates are made accordingly. 
 
 Fire protection, viewed in its broad and proper light, should include not only the 
 passive qualities of fire resistance in design and construction, but also those active 
 means of fire detection and fire-fighting appliances which go so far to supplement 
 and make effective the purely passive elements of the problem. Fire protection 
 should be aggressive as well as purely resistant. 
 
44 
 
 Fire protection concerns not only the building but its contents as well. Damage 
 to contents is not eliminated by simply providing an incombustible structure for 
 their receipt. Many a fire has spread rapidly and spread through a building with 
 ultimate heavy loss in stock or contents but with comparatively little damage to 
 the structure itself. 
 
 A speaker before the Structural Section Engineers Society of West- 
 ern Pennsylvania made this comment on the subject: 
 
 A competent architect in his city figured out that the ordinary office building about 
 100 feet front, 150 feet deep, and 12 stories high contains, in the form of mixed com- 
 bustible material, comprising floors, moldings, door and window frames, partitions, 
 stairs, stair rails, and similar structural parts, enough combustible materials to run 
 the Mauretania 24 hours, which I recall burns 1,200 to 1,300 tons of coal during that 
 period. The older type of fireproof office buildings will probably contain 50 per cent 
 more combustible material. If we add to the combustible portions of the building the 
 combustible contents, ranging from a few chairs and desks to a dry goods store stock, 
 we have wonderful heat-producing possibilities. 
 
 As has been pointed out, a good-sized fire will produce temperatures of from 1,800** 
 to 2,000° F., and a fire which has a particularly large amount of material to feed it, 
 and good draft conditions, will develop temperatures up to 2,200°. Some fires are 
 authentically known to have gone higher than that. When we consider that con- 
 crete begins to dehydrate at 500°, and that steel beyond 1,000° to 1,200° loses its 
 strength rapidly, and at about 1,700° is incapable of sustaining its own weight, it is 
 seen that a temperature around 2,000° can do tremendous damage to an improperly 
 designed or built fireproof building. 
 
 The furnace is fireproof exactly the same as a building is fireproof, but the contents 
 of each will burn fiercely just the same and ofttimes produce many million dollars 
 loss and untold lives to be sacrificed. 
 
 In view of the existence on our boats of burnable material in the 
 shape of contents, and in view of the statements I have quoted from 
 underwriters showing the inability of structural material to take care 
 of fires originating in such burnable material, it seems to me that we 
 must look fiu'ther for the solution of our problem than to any changes 
 in construction alone, valuable as they may be. More especially is 
 this so since we can not possibly think of reconstructing boats already 
 in existence, even if we felt that such reconstruction would solve the 
 difficulty. The boats are built; they are running; they are carrying 
 priceless cargoes of human lives above burnable cargoes of mer- 
 chandise; many of them are themselves inflammable. What is to be 
 done with these boats ? In fact, what is to be done about the con- 
 tents of boats built in future, even if 5 per cent to 10 per cent is added 
 to their cost to provide the best fireproof construction ? Will this con- 
 struction remove danger in proportion to its added cost, or is some 
 other method better and more economical? To me, it seems clear 
 that we should attack this problem in the same way that it has been 
 attacked by large manufacturers and merchants on land. They have 
 found that the only way to make the contents of a building safe is to 
 install a system of automatic sprinklers. 
 
 I believe most of the gentlemen present are familiar with the Fac- 
 tory Mutual Insurance Cos., and know that the most hazardous risks 
 in the United States are comprised in the membership of those organ- 
 izations. Their buildings, for the most part, are not fireproof, but 
 are made of brick and wood. Here we find cotton mills, woolen mills, 
 shoe factories, paper mills, metal-working plants, that have reduced 
 their fire losses through automatic sprinMers to less than 5 cents per 
 $100 of insurance. 
 
 The reports of these companies are available to anyone wishing to 
 see them, and I have had a chance to see statements from the offi- 
 cials of these companies as regards the possibility of applying auto- 
 
4r) 
 
 matic sprinkler protection to ships. Practically all of them agree 
 that the device could and should be a part of steamboat equipment. 
 
 I believe the general efficiency of automatic sprinklers in buildings 
 is unquestioned; but I doubt if most men know that since 1897 more 
 than 17,000 fires have been reported to the insurance companies where 
 sprinklers were effective. This probably does not include thousands 
 of fires where the loss was so small as not to be reported. These fires 
 occurred for the most part in extremely dangerous plants with large 
 unbroken areas. Is it not logical to suppose that on a ship, with its 
 many small compartments, the record would be even more remark- 
 able? 
 
 The National Fire Protection Association of Boston publishes 
 tables on these sprinkler fires. The tables for April, 1916, show that 
 over 31 per cent of all the 17,000 fires are put out by one sprinkler 
 head, one head covering as a rule a square 8 by 10 feet. Seventy 
 per cent of the fires are put out by five or less heads. Taking into 
 account the kind of property protected, this seems to me a wonderful 
 record, and one which we can not afford to overlook in dealing with 
 vessels. Such protection stops fires in contents or buildings either. 
 That seems to me the big point — sprinklers will stop fires starting in 
 freight cargoes. 
 
 In addition, the sprinkler gives a fire alarm when it starts to work, 
 and it works without human aid. I have seen several boats equipped 
 with sprinklers, but I believe some of those equipments are not en- 
 tirely automatic, which is too bad, because the chief virtue of sprin- 
 klers on land is that they are always ready to begin work without 
 human aid. 
 
 The following is a list of the steamers either wholly or partially 
 protected by sprinklers, and I should like information as to the reasons 
 why shipowners have not more largely made use of this apparatus: 
 
 PARTIAL LIST OF STEAMERS EQUIPPED WITH SPRINKLERS. 
 
 Alabama (runs between Chicago and western Michigan ports). 
 
 Bee & See (partial). 
 
 Bunker Hill (Metropolitan Steamship Line). 
 
 City of Cleveland (partial). 
 
 Commonwealth (N. E. Navigation Co.). 
 
 Casandra (steam yacht — New London, Conn,). 
 
 Detroit the Third (Detroit & Cleveland Navigation Co.), 
 
 Fort Sutton (San Francisco, Cal.), 
 
 Massachusetts (Metropolitan Steamship Line). 
 
 No. 1290 (of the Fall River Line, N, E. Na\dgation Co,). 
 
 Pequannock (freight boat, N. E, Navigation Co,), 
 
 Plymouth (N, E, "Navigation Co.), 
 
 Western States (Cleveland & Buffalo Steamship Co,). 
 
 Indiana (Goodrich Transit Co.), 
 
 Imperator (Hamburg- American Line, Mather & Piatt equipment). 
 
 Vaterland (Hamburg- American Line, Mather & Piatt equipment). 
 
 It has been my personal good fortune to have visited or to have 
 sailed on most of these ships. I have made it a point to question the 
 officers as to their opinion of the sprinkler system, and with such 
 uniform good report that it has been a matter of satisfaction to note 
 the approval on April 8, 1916, of the changes in Rule IX, Ocean and 
 Coastwise; Rule XI of Lakes, Bays, and Sounds; and Rule XI of 
 Rivers, General Rules and Regulations of the Steamboat Inspection 
 Service. 
 
46 
 
 In my opinion, the best and most practical method of fire prevention 
 on shipboard, and that involving the minimum of cost, is to be found 
 in — 
 
 (a) Extending all water-tight bulkheads to the upper deck. 
 
 (h) Isolating each deck whenever practicable from the others by 
 means of water-tight steel hatches. 
 
 (c) The installation of an automatic sprinkler system throughout 
 the ship. 
 
 (d) Metal doors, furniture, and partitions in passenger accommo- 
 dations. 
 
 Passenger ships of the excursion type do not lend themselves to this 
 entire combination plan, but that they should be provided with an 
 equipment as full as practicable along these lines is without question 
 a long step in the direction of prevention of their destruction by fire. 
 
 The Secretary. Does anybody present desire to ask Capt. McGray 
 any questions ? 
 
 Mr. Dobson, you represent a very well-known concern, the WilHam 
 Cramp & Son Ship & Engine Building Co. I shaU be glad to have 
 your views. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM A. DOBSON, NAVAL ARCHITECT, 
 THE WILLIAM CRAMP & SON SHIP & ENGINE BUILDING CO., PHIL- 
 ADELPHIA, PA. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, as has already been referred to this 
 morning by Mr. Gatewood and Mr. Magoun, the shipbuilder stands 
 ready to devote aU his energies and resources to meeting the require- 
 ments of the shipowner, provided these requirements are within the 
 limits of possibility and that the owner is willing to meet the cost 
 involved. There is a great deal that has already been done in retard- 
 ing the spread of fire in ships. It has been our fortune at our ship- 
 yard to build one of the vessels referred to this morning, the Common- 
 wealth, where we have seen the sprinkler system installed, the fitting 
 of screen bulkheads with fire doors, and the cargo spaces sheathed 
 with steel. I beUeve the principles there worked out are the prin- 
 ciples on which present or future fire-retarding work must be de- 
 veloped as applied to passenger vessels. Of course, this was some 
 years ago, and since then we have had the advantage of advances 
 and development in types of material, such as composite board, 
 which can now be made fireproof. We have also a very good material 
 in asbestos board, which is fireproof, and does not conduct sound as 
 does the aU-steel structure. Besides, it is more pleasant to the touch 
 than steel. 
 
 The Secretary. Excuse me. Is any of that board made on wire, 
 as wire glass is made ? 
 
 Mr. Dobson. I have not seen any of it so made. I have seen it 
 made so strong and stiff that it stands like ordinary lumber. It is 
 sometimes used for outside sheathing, but it is heavy; and if the 
 shipowner wants to have a ship nearly fireproof, he must put up with 
 such disadvantages as increase in weight and cost. On a passenger 
 steamer of the Sound or river type, when draft is absolutely limited, 
 it is impossible to carry so much heavy material in her construction; 
 but I beUeve a ^eat deal can be done by development along the lines 
 of the installations which have already been made in these vessels 
 referred to. The cost, of course, is a matter which concerns the 
 
47 
 
 shipowner, and sometimes the cost of introducing certain improve- 
 ments would be so great that a boat could not be built and operated at 
 a profit. All these things must be given due consideration; but I 
 wish to assure any of the shipowners that the shipbuilder stands 
 ready at all times to cooperate with them and to give them the very 
 best service possible. Oi course when we undertake a problem where 
 something novel and outside the known art is required, we naturally 
 
 fo for advice to speciahsts in the particular line of the work desired, 
 'erhaps it might be in ventilation; it might be fireproof doors, or fire- 
 proof construction. We very gladly avail ourselves in such cases of 
 the advice and services of the experts who make a specialty of such, 
 lines of business. 
 
 The Secretary. Is Capt. Blair in the room ? We have not heard 
 anybody as yet from the Mississippi River district. Capt. Blair is 
 general manager of the Northern Steamboat Co., Davenport, Iowa. 
 
 STATEMENT OF CAPT. W. A. BLAIR, GENERAL MANAGER,lNORTH- 
 ERN STEAMBOAT CO.,|DAVENPORT, IOWA. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, I happen to be the only one connected with our St. 
 Louis association of boat owners able to get away. This is our busy 
 time. And I came in very much of a hurry and had very little idea 
 of the import of this meeting; but I am glad I came. It opens up 
 to me what I think is a school of instruction. We have much to 
 learn. I have rather been impressed a few times in my life that 
 steamboat men think they know it all. It is very evident to me that 
 we have not learned all our lessons yet, and I hope through this 
 committee, which I conclude will be selected to-day, that we will get a 
 lot of valuable information which will do us good in coming years. 
 We want the right thing, and we have all had enough actual experi- 
 ence in life to know that the right thing is the cheapest thing in the 
 long run. 
 
 Our type of steamboat — the western — has had a bad name from 
 long years ago ; and then when Mr. Hay finished it off with that poem 
 about Jim Bledsoe, ''She Has Had Her Nose Agin' the Bank" chasing 
 us ashore ever since ''the Night of the Prairie BeU," no matter how 
 the conditions may have changed, we have had to fight that old 
 reputation, and people while coming aboard in fear and trembling 
 hope that they will get there aU in one chunk, neither burnt nor 
 drowned. This feeling is not borne out by the facts, I am happy to 
 say, because the situation has changed. 
 
 There were a good many boats burned in the years when the 
 cargoes were nearly all highly inflammable material. That was in 
 the busy days, in the palmy days we read about, when there was so 
 much racing, a time when stories were written which nearly always 
 wound up with a fire, or a race in which there were two explosions at 
 least. I have seen some racing in my time. I have yet to learn of a 
 boat that blew up in a race. I have been 36 years in the business, 
 actively engaged, and I have never seen but one trifling accident. 
 The Diamond Jo Line, which operated many boats on the Mississippi 
 River for 35 years, never had a loss by fire. The Streckfus Line, which 
 bought out the Diamond Jo Line, has been operating for several 
 years, and under their management they have not had a fire. They 
 never had but one fire, and that was a very peculiar one. It was an 
 
4S 
 
 excursion boat filled with people. It caught fire in the hold and they 
 could not turn on the steam to put out the fire without cooking the 
 man in the hold who started the fire. They landed the boat without 
 loss or injury except to one hysterical woman who jumped over on the 
 deep side. 
 
 The Eagle Packet Co. has been in successful operation for many 
 years. They never lost a boat by fire, except one, which caught fire . 
 from another boat at the wharf at St. Louis. The greater proportion 
 of the fires that have occurred during my time have been on boats 
 tied up at the bank. Of vessels burned, for some strange reason, the 
 fatality seems to have been greatest among those that had not been 
 doing well and had a poor future. I would not charge those men 
 with arson. We know where an individual is not doing much 
 business, is out of money (they are a plucky lot and will hang on as 
 long as they have money and the public has confidence in them), he 
 becomes careless, and the boat burns. That is the history of most 
 of our fires. Among those who are active, those who are doing any- 
 thing like a prosperous business and can stay in the game, the fire 
 losses have been so small and infrequent that we have not really 
 thought anything about it. 
 
 But there is another reason for that, the improvement in the in- 
 spection service. Mention has not been made of this, I believe. In 
 this same connection, years ago when the fire losses occurred on the 
 western rivers, many 'of the things we have now we did not have 
 then; inspections were infrequent and they were not severe. It is 
 more trouble and it takes more time to inspect the hose now than the 
 entire job took when I commenced. There never was any expecta- 
 tion of trying the pumps or inspecting the hose. 
 
 The Secretary. Did they overhaul the rudder chains when they 
 inspected the vessels, Capt. Blair? 
 
 Capt. Blair. No; inspections were very lenient. They became 
 gradually more rigid and careful. We had no fire pumps in those 
 days at all. They had hand pumps that would not throw. Now 
 they have steam pumps and hand pumps in addition. I nnd it a 
 great convenience to have that pump there all the time, a convenience 
 supplying water all over the boat. 
 
 We realized that in practice when a fire starts it would probably 
 be in the cargo. Not only by our regular inspections but by our 
 frequent inspections now our boats are kept pretty near the scratch. 
 We prevent fire from taking place in the nrst instance by protecting 
 the woodwork exposed to the heat, around the chimneys, in the 
 kitchen, and the galleys. The oil lockers are all cared for. Those 
 things are looked after. Besides the frequent inspections are the 
 weeSy fire drills. I thought when that was ordered in the first 
 place it was putting it to us pretty strong, but I tell jou I am an 
 enthusiastic convert to it. I do not know of any one thing that has 
 added so much to our safety as the fire driU. I am as much an 
 enthusiast on that subject as the men who first suggested it. 
 
 Fire Chief Croker spoke of one thing that I understand. He went 
 out to sea with that man and he spoke of the condition those fellows 
 were in. We all have that to contend with, and this is where the 
 fire drill comes in right. Just as soon as they are straightened up, 
 the first day you leave port, when they know what you are talking 
 about, we give aU hands a good drill. I am surprisedf at the interest 
 
49 
 
 they take in it. I am highly gratified with it. I am so pleased with 
 it all that I was not at all surprised when this new regulation about the 
 
 Frinkler system reached me just the day before I started, because 
 think it will mean the cure of the only real danger we have left, 
 that of the fire starting in the cargo. It will take care of that very 
 nicely and it can be done without having a very material effect on 
 our draft. We can not stand much increase in draft. Our steam- 
 boats between St. Louis and St. Paul draw 3^ feet. During 1910, 
 which was a favorable, warm summer, when everybody wanted to 
 go, we did not have a boat that was able to go to St. Paul. We had 
 their officers hired and we had to pay them, masters, engineers, pilots, 
 mates, and pursers, and you can imagine how much that idle summer 
 put us in the hole. The following season, 1911, one of our boats, the 
 Quincy, did not get there at all. One of the others got through all 
 but two trips. She sank once and lost a little time. Fortunately, 
 there was not enough water in the river to sink very bad. We did 
 not have to send for a diver. Every weight that we put on the boat 
 in the water increases her depth. Our danger lies in the bottom. 
 If the mates will keep her off the bottom and the pilots off the banks 
 we are all right. 
 
 The Secretary. We did not know we were to have a humorist 
 with us to-day. 
 
 Capt. Blair. I am talking things over because we Tiave these 
 troubles. The fire risk has been so slight and the sinking and trouble 
 from snags are so frequent that we are looking down below there for 
 trouble rather than anywhere else. But we do feel that this matter 
 of fire does affect us no matter where it occurs because if an accident 
 occurs anywhere it is in our papers the next morning and we get 
 punished along with the rest oi the business. I have always been so 
 glad that at the dawn of history, the start of navigation, the earliest 
 navigator, our esteemed ancestor, Capt. Noah, did not set his boat 
 on fire and sell out to the insurance companies. 
 
 The Secretary. Is Mr. LaDow in the room ? * 
 
 Mr. LaDow. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. LaDow, I think you can tell us something 
 about the furniture risk in this matter. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT V. LaDOW, OF THE DAHLSTROM 
 METALLIC DOOR CO. (OF JAMESTOWN, N. Y.), WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, I have nothing to do with furniture. Our company 
 manufactures hollow metal doors and trim. I think there is a gentle- 
 man here who represents a metal-furniture company. 
 
 The Secretary. We will give him a chance next. If you have 
 anything to tell us about doors, let us hear it. 
 
 Mr. LaDow. Hollow metal doors were placed on the market only 
 after metal-covered doors had been given a thorough test and failed 
 of their purpose. It had been the experience not only that the metal- 
 covered doors did not furnish adequate protection in case of fire, but 
 also that in many places they were not refined enough for use; while 
 on the other hand, Dahlstrom hollow metal doors have withstood 
 several severe fire tests in buildings in which they have been installed. 
 In no instance have the Dahlstrom doors failed to confine the fire to 
 
50 
 
 the room in which it started. In appearance they have no superior 
 in any material. They were, of course, designed in the first place to 
 be used in buildings, but soon found use in railroad cars, and not 
 only this Government but also England has recognized their 
 worth for use in shipbuilding as well. Our doors were used exten- 
 sively in the English ships Acquitaniay Laconia, and Carmania, and 
 it is safe to assume that their use will be gradually extended to all of 
 the better class of passenger ships of English registry. It is plainly 
 evident that fire is a greater menace on sea than on land, and for 
 that reason every safeguard should be furnished against this danger. 
 
 The Secretary. Have you furnished them to the Navy ? 
 
 Mr. LaDow. Yes, sir; some of the battleships that are completely 
 or in part equipped with our work, are the Utah, Florida, Texas, New 
 York, Nevada, OJclaJioma, and possibly others I can not name now. 
 We have also installed work in some of the torpedo boats for the 
 Navy. We furnished the metal joiner work now being installed in 
 two lightships at Wilmington for the Lighthouse Service. At the 
 present time we have the contract for furnishing the hollow metal 
 joiner doors for the battleship Mississippi. In addition to the doors 
 furnished for the United States Navy we also equipped the Argentine 
 battleships Moreno and Rivadavia throughout (now, we understand, 
 acquired by Japan) with metal joiner doors and frames. I think 
 Mr. Bennett, of the Fore River Co., could say something about the 
 installation of our work in ships built by his company for the Navy. 
 
 Mr. Bennett. I should say that they were specified by the Navy 
 Department, and we were forced to put them in. 
 
 Mr. LaDow. The Navy Department has specified hollow metal 
 doors for battleships after devoting much study to the best methods 
 of construction and equipment, not only against accidental fires, but 
 also to lessen the liability of flying wood splinters in times of action, 
 and this careful study has resulted in the adoption of those features 
 which are now considered as standard in battleship construction. This 
 indorsement by the Navy Department should be considered as suffi- 
 cient reason for adopting them in the construction of sliips for pas- 
 senger service. Not only is this method of construction adaptable 
 for doors and frames but also for partitions, berths, and other equip- 
 ment as well; while the tin-clad wood doors are unsightly, and sub- 
 ject to the strain of contraction and expansion of the wood caused 
 by atmospheric changes. 
 
 In regard to hollow metal doors a word of caution may not be out 
 of place here as there are good, bad, and indifferent workmanship in 
 all lines and there is no exception in the hollow-metal industry; but 
 the Dahlstrom Metallic Door Co.'s products stand to-day, and I 
 hope always will stand, as an example of the best that can be pro- 
 duced. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Ackerson, will you tell us about this subject ? 
 
 Mr. Ackerson. In battleships we do not have wooden doors; 
 whether we specify the Dahlstrom I very much doubt. We require 
 steel doors. 
 
 The Secretary. Tell us very frankly what you can about this 
 whole question of protection. 
 
51 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES L. ACKERSON, NAVAL CONSTRUCTOR, 
 NAVY DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, we do all that has been suggested 
 except to install automatic sprinklers. We have no automatic 
 sprinklers and it is possibly because we are not sufficiently famiUar 
 with their merits. We are investigating them. We depend possibly 
 more upon inflammability of material used and in the inspection 
 of the vessel while in service than we do upon the actual fire-fighting 
 facilities. We have the usual water systems. We have carbon 
 dioxide systems for storerooms adjacent to fuel-oil compartments. 
 We have 'foam fire extinguishing for fire rooms, paint rooms, and 
 various spaces in which there may be fuel-oil fires. We exercise 
 the greatest care in all electric installations throughout the ship, 
 particularly in spaces in which ammunition is stowed or handled. 
 Otherwise we make no special endeavor to keep away from fire 
 troubles. 
 
 The Secretary. Except by builchng a ship that w^ill not burn ? 
 
 Mr. AcKERSON. Right. We do not have to contend with pas- 
 sengers, of course, to the extent that passenger-carrying fines do; 
 nor do we have the inflammable cargo to contend with, except 
 ammunition, and that of course is in hermetically sealed spaces. 
 It is inspected dail}', sometimes two or three times a day, and in 
 some ships it is automatically refrigerated. I do not think the con- 
 ditions on board ships in the Nav}' have much in common with 
 merchant vessels. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you ver}' much. 
 
 Mr. Furuseth, you have been sitting here very patiently all day 
 long. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. ANDREW FURUSETH, PRESIDENT OF THE 
 SEAMEN'S UNION, SAN FRANCISCO, CAL. 
 
 Mr. Secretary, I have been very much interested in fistening to* the 
 talk on material and the means to avoid fire. Three or four of the 
 speakers have mentioned another phase of it that I know more about 
 than I do about the other means. I think that Capt. McGray gave 
 the real facts when he said that it is the cargo that bums more than 
 the vessel. I have been in three or four fires on shipboard myself, 
 and it was always the cargo. I know that what saved us in the cases 
 in which I was involved was the fact that we had on board a sufficient 
 number — that is, a reasonable number — of. skilled men who knew just 
 what to do and who were able and had the courage to obey the orders 
 that were issued. I had one particularly interesting experience with 
 a fire on a vessel going from San Francisco to Nushagak, Alaska. 
 We had about 250 people aboard, all fishermen and Chinese, who 
 were going up there for the purpose of putting up salmon. The hold 
 of the vessel was full of inflammable stuff, and some of it would ignite 
 of its own accord by rubbing against each other. We had a lot of 
 acids on board, and those we nad on deck, in big drums. That is the 
 usu^ cargo of salmon fishermen. Coming near our destination in 
 the Bering Sea we found smoke coming from the hold. It was bad 
 weather. We opened up the hatches and dug ourselves through 
 until we got to the fire and then extinguished it. We had a big 
 crew on the vessel just at that time, fishermen, of course, and they 
 
52 
 
 are all seamen — they were in that case anyway. We could have done 
 it with the ordinary crew also. 
 
 The best kind of implements to prevent fire are none too good, 
 but there is no way to prevent it altogether. The best way of 
 building a vessel so that it will withstand fire is none too good, but 
 a fireproof vessel does not exist, and I do not suppose she ever will 
 be built. If she could be built, the man-of-iwars would be of that kind. 
 There are not any of them that would not burn after all in some 
 way or another. 
 
 The next proposition is to have somebody on board the vessel 
 that can handle the fire apparatus when the fii'e begins; first to 
 catch it in its first and early stages, and in order to do that there must 
 be a sufficient number of men on deck all the time — on watch, so 
 as to keep the vessel under constant inspection, as you call it here. If 
 you do that, you will discover the fire pretty nearly as quickly as 
 the automatic sprinkler system will ; not if it is in the hold, of course ; 
 in the cargo you will not, but anywhere else you will. 
 
 The next proposition is that when you have the knowledge that 
 there is a fire is to have the men that know how to go to work and 
 extinguish it. For that purpose men are needed who have the skill 
 and the courage — skill to do things that are necessary to be done, 
 and courage to do it at their own risk. Now, of course, that is 
 manifestly impossible in some of our vessels, a large number of our 
 vessels, not on the rivers nor to a very large extent on the bays, 
 but on the ocean and coastwise. We have a condition in which a 
 large part of the men have no conception of what the captain or 
 the engineer says to them in case of an emergency. That is probably 
 one of the most important things to consider with reference to the 
 human element referred to here by Mr. Taylor, I think. 
 
 With the best kind of appliances that you have applied to the new 
 vessels, after thorough investigation as to what is the practical thing 
 to do with the new vessel, the next proposition is what about the old. 
 If ihej are permitted to go, they will have a great advantage over 
 the new vessels, because the public as a general proposition does 
 not know which vessel is good and which vessel is bad. The people 
 see that inspection certificate — if they see anything at all they see 
 that — and they say, ''Uncle Sam takes care of that," and take chances 
 accordingly. Those vessels which are poorly equipped and poorly 
 manned give the reputation to those which are well equipped and 
 well manned, and endangers all of them. And those are the people 
 that are most important to deal with. Wherever it is possible to 
 make the old vessels fit or put in the things on the old vessel or 
 change the old vessel to correspond with the new vessel, in the 
 interest both of the good vessel and of the traveling pubUc, that 
 ought to be done. 
 
 Now there is one more thought that I want to call to your attention. 
 Where there is a fire on board a vessel there are two things that are 
 especially necessary if you could have it done. One is to have a 
 system of caU from the bridge to the crew's quarters. One-half of 
 the crew being on deck, some of them, if it is a small boat, will have 
 to go to call those who are below. You can spare nobody. It 
 takes up some time, and if there were a system of caDs from the bridge 
 to the crew's quarters so that you could arouse the crew without 
 arousing anybody else it would be a great good. More than one-half 
 
53 
 
 of the fires that occur on board the vessel are never known to the 
 passengers. We never let them know anything about it, nor is it 
 reported to the inspectors when the vessel comes in. No serious 
 harm being done, why make a fuss ? 
 
 There is another call bell that ought to be on board passenger 
 vessels. There should be some system by which the officer on the 
 bridge can caU every stateroom where the passengers are; that is, 
 press a button and make enough of a noise to get the people who are 
 in there to come out when it is really necessary that they should 
 come out. That applies with equal force to a collision and to a fire. 
 Outside of that I do not see what else you can do except take the 
 chances. We have always taken them. 
 
 In conclusion I would say this, that there is very much in the state- 
 ment of the gentleman from Iowa that vessels that are not making 
 very much money somehow or other are more subject to fire than 
 other vessels, particularly if they are fairly well insured. There is 
 not any doubt about that. It went so far in that matter that Joseph 
 Chamberlain said about safety — I think I can quote just about 
 what he said — -" the shipowner gets the value of his vessel back, and 
 sometimes more. The owner of the cargo often gets more than the 
 value of the cargo back, and the insurance people make money on 
 the premium." The more fires, the higher the premium and the 
 more money they make. So there is more truth than poetry in that 
 sizing up of the situation. I do not think the men who own ships, 
 Mr. Secretary, are any more immune from temptation than men 
 who own stores. The best insurance against fire is a skilled crew 
 of real seamen. They can put out a fire when there is yet time and 
 they can tell aU about it later if there is something mysterious about 
 it. They are likely to have pretty good judgment about causes and 
 this kind of men are not hired when the vessel is to be sold to the 
 insurance. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you very much, Mr. Furuseth. 
 
 Gentlemen, I have not tried to go by a Hst. I have tried to give 
 everybody a chance. If there is anyone who desires to make a 
 statement, I shall be very glad to have him do so. (After a pause.) 
 I wish Mr. Newman would make a statement. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. T. F. NEWMAN, OF THE C. & B. TRANSIT CO., 
 
 CLEVELAND, OHIO. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have been very much interested in 
 the discussions to-day. I believe that we are on the right track. 
 This committee which I hope will be appointed wiU find a good field. 
 There is no question about that. And I say that from our standpoint 
 we will cooperate with them in every way. 
 
 The Secretary. Thank you very much. 
 
 Mr. Goodrich. I think the call beU from the bridge to the crew's 
 quarters is in the regulations, is it not, Gen. Uhler ? 
 
 Gen. Uhler. Not from the bridge. 
 
 The Secretary. The vessel on which I was 10 days ago had a fire 
 at 5 minutes past 6 in the morning. There was no call to the crew's 
 quarters and they had to detach a man to send them up. 
 
54 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. PAUL G. BROCK, OF THE ART METAL CON- 
 STRUCTION CO., WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, nothing has been said of steel furni- 
 ture. It has been touched on a little and passed over quickly 
 
 The Secretary. That is what fire does with it. 
 
 Mr. Brock (continuing). Especially by the owners and shipyard 
 people. It has been criticized. Mr. Taylor, I think, criticized metal 
 furniture as being excessively heavy. Such is not proven by facts. 
 Some years ago we requested the Navy Department's permission to 
 design furniture for battleships. Their first question was, ^^How 
 much would it weigh?" The wood equivalent of the first experi- 
 mental piece weighed 150 pounds and our article weighed 495. They 
 immediately said, ^^That will not do." We started to work, realizing 
 that we had to meet that condition, with the result that we have been 
 able to furnish steel furniture lighter than its equivalent in wood; not 
 only that, but steel furniture that will be so strong as to withstand 
 the vibration of the heavy gunfire. We offer to deal with the naval 
 architects and the shipyards in developing steel superstructures. 
 They will not be obligated in any way if they wiU accept our offer. 
 We hope you will permit us to confer with this committee if it is 
 organized. We would like to show them how this can be built, how 
 much it wiU cost, and its weight. 
 
 We have the actual knowledge of the fabrication of light sheet steel 
 and of the methods of folding, reinforcing, bending, etc., so as to get 
 the maximum strength out of the minimum weight. Shipbuilders 
 are accustomed to dealing with steel plates and beams. Our business 
 deals entirely with sheets. We know how to handle sheets, and we 
 are willing and only too glad, if given the opportunity to deal with the 
 naval architects and with your committee, to give you an absolutely 
 fireproof superstructure— one that wiU not burn. 
 
 The Secretary. Do you feel that you can furnish steel construction 
 which will correspond in weight substantially to wood ? 
 
 Mr. Brock. We have done it in furniture, and we feel that we can 
 do it in the housing and partition work. Anyhow, we should like to 
 try it. 
 
 The Secretary. That is a laudible ambition. 
 
 Mr. Myrick. How much more does your steel furniture cost? 
 
 Mr. Brock. At the present market, I think it is cheaper than wood. 
 
 Mr. FuRUSETH. Lighter, stronger, and cheaper — that settles it; 
 you wiU get it. 
 
 Mr. Brock. It has gone through the experimental stage, and now 
 they are buying it very cheaply. We have had the experience, we 
 have the machmes, and we have the dies; and we can turn it out 
 cheaper than when in the experimental stage. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Brock, what do vou mean to cover under the 
 head of "furniture?" Not merely such furniture as applies to an 
 office, I suppose. You would cover such matters as shelving, cabi- 
 nets, etc., would you not? 
 
 Mr. Brock. The berths, the drawers, the mess tables, the equip- 
 ment in the kitchen, the pulpit for the minister (they have a chapel 
 on some of the naval ships, and have a very small folding pulpit lor 
 the minister), etc. 
 
 The Secretary. And shelving^ 
 
55 
 
 Mr. Brock. Yes. Everything, I believe, within the bulkheads, 
 the structural bulkheads. The entire furniture equipment is of steel 
 on the Cedar. This ship you must know was designed by the naval 
 architect of the Department of Commerce. 
 
 The Secretary. Why did you do that, Mr. Gillette ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. For the sake of cleanliness, mostly. 
 
 The Secretary. Did you take into account the weight ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Secretary. How did you find it as to weight ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. About 20 per cent heavier than wood. 
 
 The Secretary. You do not know about the price ? 
 
 Mr. Gillette. I do not know. 
 
 Mr. Brock. I am convinced that our prices are less than those of 
 wood. Furthermore, I think in figuring a 20 per cent excess of weight, 
 that is rather large. 
 
 The Secretary. There are a great many little bolts, clips, etc., 
 which must be taken into account. On one battleship there are 
 59,000 pounds of wood and 50,000 pounds of steel. 
 
 Mr. DoBSON. We built. a Russian battleship, also a cruiser for the 
 Russian Government. The cruiser was smik by the Japanese, and 
 she laid on the bottom for several months. Tnis vessel was fitted 
 with metal furniture. She was raised by the Japanese and added to 
 their navy, the metal furniture made by Mr. Brock's firm being found 
 in excellent condition and not corroded. 
 
 ^ir. Brock. One was 18 months under water and the other 22. 
 
 Mr. Berry. It seems to me like a long jump from metal furniture 
 to an entire ship. It is well to consider carefuUy the statement that 
 a metal structure can be built as light as a wood structure in all cases. 
 
 Mr. Brock. Mr. Chairman, I said we should like to try it. 
 
 Mr. Berry. There is an intermediate step in the steel passenger 
 coach. In that case the weight of the steel coach has in all cases 
 largely exceeded the weight of the old wooden coach, and for that 
 reason I question the statement. 
 
 Mr. Brock. The more weight there is on the rails, the safer the 
 coach. 
 
 The Secretary. Is not that because they put in a very heavy plate 
 girder the entire length of the car, which does not exist in a wooden 
 coach ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. I was considering the bodies only. 
 
 Mr. Brock. That is from the standpoint of safety. A certain 
 railroad president traveled in a car with a 6-inch armor-plate floor, 
 so if his car hit anything else it would go through it. We do not want 
 the naval architect and the shipbuilder to judge us before we are 
 heard. 
 
 The Secretary. We are all agreed as to that, Mr. Brock. I think 
 this committee can be relied upon to give you a fair hearing. 
 
 Have you anything further to say, Mr. Berry ? 
 
 Mr. Berry. No; I believe that is aU. 
 
 Mr. Brock. The problem of fire protection in connection with 
 public conveyances, as well as the subject of fire protection in build- 
 ings, has consumed, during the past few years, the almost imdivided 
 attention of architects, engineers, and manufacturers. Railroads 
 have recognized the value of steel in the construction of passenger 
 
56 
 
 coaches, und, at the present time, on nearly all of our principal rail- 
 roc ds the old-time wooden and very highly combustible coach is fast 
 becoming extinct. The reason for this is that through the use of the 
 steel coach the loss of life has become greatly reduced. Thereby this 
 not only reflects back on the railroad as a very great advertising 
 feature, but also is proving profitable in the elimination of claims for 
 death and disability. In all our large cities ordinances have been 
 passed which make it imperative to construct buildings within cer- 
 tain 2 ones of absolutely noninflammable materials. However fire- 
 proof an office building may be constructed, it avaUs little if the 
 furnishings and the office appliances, such as filing cabinets, desks, 
 bookcases, etc., are not also made of noninflammable materials. It 
 is quite evident that a fire can not exist where there is nothing to 
 burn. So much has been done to protect life and property on shore 
 that it seems rather deplorable that the question of the same pro- 
 tection on the high seas has so long been overlooked. It is apparent 
 that the reason for avoiding the use of steel as a fire retardant m ship 
 construction is because it has been believed that the weight would 
 be excessive; also that the cost would be prohibitive. I will state 
 that neither of the above suppositions is true, but I hope to explain 
 in detail later. 
 
 A few years back it was deemed advisable by the Russian Gov- 
 ernment to replace the old t3rpe of wood '^joiner work" with steel. 
 Three ships were therefore equipped with metal furniture, and in 
 those days the problem of weight had not been given the careful 
 study as at the present time, but, nevertheless, it was realized that 
 steel was incombustible; also that the splintering of woodwork when 
 the ship was in action would be eliminated. As a matter of interest, 
 the ships equipped with metal furniture were sunk in action by the 
 Japanese and after being immersed for a period of two years were 
 raised by them and the furniture which was made of steel was found 
 to be completely intact. It had been completely protected by the 
 very fine quality of baked enamel finish which is to-day applied to 
 this product. This shows clearly that^teel is not subject to corrosion 
 even though immersed in salt water, if it is properly protected. This 
 fact disproves claims which, without doubt, will be made by those 
 opposed to the use of steel for this purpose because of selfish com- 
 mercial reasons. Nevertheless, we can guarantee that our process of 
 baked enamel finish has withstood the test of time. All that has 
 been done by our railroads, by our Federal, State, and municipal 
 governments in the passing of ordinances to protect life and prop- 
 erty against fire on land is a decided step in the advance of modern 
 civilization. 
 
 While much thought has been given the subject of fire protection 
 on board ship, we believe that at the present time little has been 
 done. A ship may be built of steel, it may have steel cross and 
 longitudinal bulkheads, but if the superstructure is largely of wood, 
 the cabin furniture is of wood, the ship is not by any means a fire- 
 resisting structure. With the development of the modern steamship 
 carrying yearly all over the world thousands of souls, the need of 
 fire protection has become imperative. 
 
 The construction of a fire-preventive ship is not only theoretically 
 possible, but it i commercially practicable. It can be accomplished 
 
57 
 
 by the substitution of steel for wood in the construction of the super- 
 structure and the furnishings of the public rooms and cabins. 
 
 It has been demonstrated that two thin sheets of steel not over 
 18 gauge in thickness, with an intervening air chamber between and 
 the sheets laterally secured together, is a more effective fire retardant 
 than a one-half inch or even a 1-inch solid plate of steel, because the 
 uneven expansion under high temperature of the two faces of the 
 solid plate forming a bulkhead or partition causes it to buckle and 
 open up at the joints, whereas if the bulkhead be msde as above 
 described, the air chamber prevents the sheet on the side away from 
 the fire from becoming superheated, with the result that it remains 
 in place and prevents the spread of fire. The weight is practically 
 the same as if made of wood and the cabin framing or '^ joiner work" 
 can be produced at only a slight advance over the cost of wooden 
 framing. Double steel cab hi partitions may be built with air cham- 
 bers for resisting fire and constructed so that they can be easily fitted 
 around beams, angles, or channels. The modern passenger ship with 
 its long passageways of dry and highly varnished woods, presents a 
 risk from fire which is receiving serious consideration from naval 
 architects. A fire once started will sweep the entire length of the 
 superstructure of a ship before life boats can be laimched. Steel 
 cabin doors may be used in connection with the steel cabin framing 
 or partition work so that each room is a unit in itself and it would 
 be absolutely impossible for a fire to spread from one cabin to an- 
 other. Steps have already been taken by some steamship lines for 
 the installation of fire-resisting bulkheads having metal doors. A 
 system of this kind has already been installed by the Cunard Com- 
 pany in the steamship Carmania and the steamship Aquatania, which 
 have both been equipped with fire-resisting bulkheads. 
 
 The present methods of handling steel have made it possible to pro- 
 duce the most artistic and refined designs. Sharp and graceful mold- 
 ings are now drawn through steel rolls so that architectural designs 
 can be followed in the paneling and the decoration of dining saloons, 
 cabins, and public rooms. The beautiful gaining of the handsomest 
 and rarest woods can be so successfully imitated mat the most exact- 
 ing connoisseur can not distinguish between the actual wood and the 
 steel. Beautiful finishes in plain harmonious colors like cream white, 
 French grays, blues, and mottled effects are possible. The manufac- 
 ture of steel furniture has been so perfected that all private cabins 
 and public rooms can be fitted out with steel wardrobes, chests of 
 drawers, washstands, etc., and sideboards, buffets, dining tables for 
 public rooms are now made of steel. This class of work has been suc- 
 cessfully installed on our battleships Utah and Florida, Arkansas and 
 Wyoming, Nevada and OMahoma, Pennsylvania, New York, and 
 Texas; destroyers Jarvis, Downs, and Erickson; cruiser Sacramento. 
 Several installations have been made on ships for Argentina, for 
 Englana, tTapan, and Russia. To gain a complete and intimate 
 knowledge oi exactly the possibilities in this particular type of work 
 I would advise that these ships be inspected. As before stated, the 
 installation of steel '' joiner work" on ships is commercially possible. 
 We believe, without having studied the proposition in detail, that the 
 initial cost would be slightly more than wood, but steel unlike wood 
 is not subject to atmospheric changes and therefore is more durable. 
 It will neither swell, shrink, nor split, and finished properly with 
 
58 
 
 baked enamels the upkeep, so far as painting is concerned, would be 
 considerably less than it would be if air-drying paints were used. 
 Steel furniture made by this company which has been in hard and 
 constant use for 20 years is still as good as the day it was installed. 
 It is evident that wooden furniture under the same conditions would 
 have been replaced once or twice. You will find that furniture 
 aboard both the battleships Utah and Florida has been installed 
 about 7 or 8 years and has successfully withstood the general wear 
 and tear encountered aboard ship. 
 
 Steel furniture is of greater value in the equipment of a ship's 
 kitchen, pantry, and scullery, for not only is it a preventative of fire, 
 but when finished in baked enamels it is more sanitary, more easily 
 cleaned than any other material. However well wooden fittings may 
 be cared for there are always joints that open up in changing tem- 
 peratures and these would, with any cracks which may occur from 
 the splitting or warping of the wood, offer a refuge for microbes which 
 can find no lodgment on steel furniture. 
 
 You will ask, although the superstructure may be completely fire- 
 proof, what means will be taken for the fireproofing of the cargoes in 
 the hold of the ship. I would recommend that steel compartments 
 be constructed, the size to be determined after a careful analysis. 
 The partitions would run from side to side of the ship and each parti- 
 tion nave a sufficiently wide doorway to allow the easy handling of 
 freight and the doors to be self-closing in case of fire. These partitions 
 would be similar, so far as their function is concerned, to fire parti- 
 tions in warehouses. In addition to this I would recommend the use 
 of a sprinkler system, same as now used in many of our factories and 
 warehouses, or possibly a steam jet to work in each compartment 
 would be more efficient than the sprinkler system. I would suggest 
 that structural members used in the construction of the partition in 
 the hold of the ship be protected by a proper thickness of asbestos 
 which could be covered with a steel shield of thin gauge to protect it 
 against the wear and tear which naturally would occur in handling 
 cargoes. In this way structural members would be protected as are 
 the columns in buildings by either concrete or terra-cotta blocks. 
 
 As to the weight of the steel ' ' joiner work ' ' which has been furnished 
 for battleships I wiU state that Government specifications have given 
 the weight of the various articles of wood furniture and have stipu- 
 lated that the metal furniture must, in every instance, be not more in 
 weight than the wood furniture and as much less as possible. After 
 a careful analysis of several constructions, it has been found that it 
 is possible to construct metal furniture in such a way that it is less 
 in weight in most instances than the similar articles of wood furni- 
 ture. This fact can be borne out by the following example: 
 
 Hardwood weighs, we will say, 3^ pounds per board foot, while a 
 section of a partition 1 foot square made of two thicknesses of 20- 
 gauge steel, with an air space of 1 inch between them and joined 
 together laterally through the air space, will weigh about 3i pounds. 
 In a battleship a certain portion of the wood furniture weighed 59,000 
 pounds. The same articles of furniture providing the same accom- 
 modations made of steel weighed only 50,000 pounds, showing a gain 
 in net weight of 9,000 pounds. 
 
 The logical conclusion of this analysis is the entire elimination of 
 wood in the fitting and furnishing of steamships, and the steamship 
 
59- 
 
 companies which follow this out to its fullest extent will merit and 
 no doubt obtain their reward in the increased patronage of the trav- 
 eling public. 
 
 The Secretary. Is there anybody else, Capt. White ? 
 
 STATEMENT OF CAPT. GEORGE A. WHITE, ASSISTANT GENERAL 
 MANAGER HCTDSON RIVJ3R DAY LINE, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Mr. Secretary and gentlemen, I have been familiar with the pas- 
 senger steamboat business in this country for a number of years. 
 There are lots of things that are very desirable but the expense and 
 weight are sometimes prohibitive. There are some of the companies 
 that can bear the expense, but there are a lot of weak ones whose 
 only excuse for living is that they can do business cheaper than the 
 railroads. They can not go on and make more elaborate preparation. 
 
 We welcome the idea of more inspection. The 31 new inspectors 
 we are glad to hear of. When there is a fire on any boat we all suffer 
 from it, and we want to keep boats from having them. 
 
 I did not intend to speak of the Day Line but Mr. Olcott was a 
 little modest in what he said about bringing up our fireproofing. 
 From the keel of the Washington Irving we are absolutely fireproof 
 up to the main deck, clear up to forward of engine and boiler rooms. 
 There is a steel deck under tne galley. The bulkheads and sides are 
 steel. Overhead is a wooden deck, but insulated with asbestos cov- 
 ered with sheet iron. Farther aft partitions in the crew's quarters 
 are 3/16-inch asbestos board. There is the same construction over 
 the fireroom and engine span; the underside of the deck is covered 
 with asbestos and sheet iron; the stairs and the soffits of the stairs 
 are covered with asbestos board; and the uptake or trunk, which 
 carries the transmission from the pilot house, is all steel. 
 
 About the steel furniture. We have to give our passengers com- 
 fortable seats going up the river. They have to sit eight or nine 
 hours, and they would not stand for steel seats. 
 
 Another thing; our chairs are largely made of wicker work, and if 
 they were thrown overboard they would hold up a person fairly well, 
 as would a wooden chair or door. The life preservers are placed 
 where anyone can reach them. They can take those Hfe preservers 
 and in the tepid, shallow water we run in, be as safe as though bath- 
 ing on a beach. We are always near shore and generally in such 
 shoal water that our light-draft steamers can either put a plank 
 ashore or are in water of wading depth. 
 
 I do believe in the drill and in the fire-fighting equipment; we go 
 away beyond the requirements of the Government. We have every- 
 thing we can think oi in the way of fire extinguishers and more equip- 
 ment than is required in way of hose. We have inspection every day 
 by captains. The drill is every week, but every day the captain goes 
 over the boat and into all these '' breeders," as Mr. Croker calls them, 
 and sees that there is no rubbish lyin^ around. 
 
 I know small fines that have had to give up insurance because they 
 could not meet their other expenses and come out even. In the 
 short season during which the boats run, it is a question whether they 
 can break even. Of course, we are told never to mention expenses in 
 coming to Washington; but I am not speaking for myself, but for a 
 great many small companies. It must be borne in mind that these 
 
60 
 
 companies can not serve the useful purpose for which they have 
 built their boats if there are too many requirements placed upon 
 them. 
 
 When we built our steamer Robert Fulton our president was insist- 
 ent that it be made fireproof. We tried out everything and every 
 device we could think of to make it fireproof ; but the naval architect 
 said, '^If you want that boat to run to Albany and make the time 
 it will be necessary to make, you can not carry all that weight." So 
 we have the minimum amount of inflammable material and the max- 
 imum amount of fireproofing we can. 
 
 We have the greatest faith in the Aero Fire Alarm system, with 
 which a number of our boats are equipped. 
 
 The Secretary. There has been reference made by a number of 
 speakers to-day to the appointment of a committee. The thought 
 is a very excellent one, I think; but I should like very much to have 
 that committee, if you see fit to direct the appointment of it, looked 
 upon perhaps a little differently from the way committees are usually 
 looked upon — not in the sense of having more work to do, because 
 we are all busy men, but in the sense of its very grave importance 
 to a great industry and to the public. I think it is capable of being 
 a great means of good; and if that committee is appointed I should 
 like to have its members all feel that in the various services of this 
 Department all we have in the way of experimental capacity and 
 knowledge is at their disposal; and, therefore, in appointing that 
 committee I wish its members to know that we are here to help them. 
 In fact, the greatest compliment we have had in this Department in 
 the last three years was given us by a writer in a magazine, who 
 spoke of it as the ''Department of Help." That is the way in which 
 I should like it known. 
 
 Is it your pleasure, gentlemen, that a committee shall be appointed ? 
 All in favor will please signify by saying ''Aye." 
 
 (The motion was adopted unanimously.) 
 
 The Secretary (continuing). Then this would be a suggestion I 
 should like to make: That the committee should be representative 
 of the industries here represented, both as to the work done and as 
 to the localities in which it is done; and that there should be two 
 representatives of this Department, merely in order that the scien- 
 tific work of the Department and its marine work may be at the 
 committee's disposal for any experimental purposes. 
 
 I should like to have it understood that through me the committee 
 could call on any other department of the Government for any in- 
 formation they need. I am sure that any facts the Navy Depart- 
 ment and the other marine departments have in their possession 
 could be ascertained and that their assistance could be had in other 
 directions. 
 
 This would be my suggestion as to procedure: That the minutes 
 of to-day be written up and submitted to each gentleman for his 
 alteration. We want to get the real thought, not the hasty speech, 
 although I know of none that has been used. Then, if we can find 
 the money, that should be printed and put into the hands of the 
 gentlemen who have been here present and of others whom thoy may 
 suggest. For example, Capt. Blair might like to have them sent to 
 the members of the St. Louis association; and Capt. White has 
 spoken of some who were not able to be here. 
 
61 
 
 Then let the committee be called together at the most convenient 
 place and determine how they can best utilize the information which 
 has here been brought out. There has been a lot of it, I think, to-day, 
 of various kinds. Then that would enable the committee to see 
 whether they wanted the Bureau of Standards to try something out 
 for them; and if it was wanted it could be arraaged. We can have 
 tests made of almost anything — any kind of material. I can arrange 
 to have the results of the work of the forest products section placed 
 at the disposal of the committee. They are doing things with wood 
 that are almost like dreams — such as making silk dresses out of pine, 
 and other things which would be of greater interest to you gentlemen. 
 I can assure you of the complete cooperation of this Department in 
 the broadest spirit of sympathy. 
 
 Now for a general outline. I should want to know, for example, 
 what Mr. Dobson thought of this, and Mr. Magoun of that, and Mr. 
 Gatewood of the other thing. I think we can do something here that 
 will be very, very practical in its final result. That would be my 
 general idea, subject to your approval. 
 
 How should this committee be appointed? Do you wish to ap- 
 point a committee to select a committee, or shall I take the liberty 
 of suggesting to you some names I have here before me, with the 
 understanding that you can throw them all over if you like ? 
 
 A Voice. I think that is the better way, Mr. Secretary. 
 
 The Secretary. My suggestion, then, would be the following : ^Mr. 
 Taylor; Mr. Kirby; Mr. Benns; Mr. Newman; Mr. Berry; Mr. Olcott; 
 Mr. Myrick; Mr. Olander, of Chicago; Mr. Gillette; and Dr. Stratton, 
 of the Bureau of Standards. 
 
 I name Dr. Stratton with especial pleasure for the reason that he 
 has commanded a vessel. He is a good, practical seaman as well as a 
 scientific man, and therefore understands his subject on both sides. 
 Mr. Gillette I need not commend to you. 
 
 That is a committee which represents Boston, New York, Detroit, 
 Washington, Cleveland, and Chicago as to locality. It represents 
 the naval architects, the insurance men, and the operating compa- 
 nies ; it represents labor and the law, Mr. Myrick being at least very 
 closely connected with admiralty law, as well as the Department. 
 
 I should like very much to add, if Capt. Blair will permit me, his 
 own name as a representative of the Mississippi River interests. 
 
 Capt. Blair. Mr. Secretary, it would be far better, and would 
 please me much better, if you would put down the name of Capt. 
 Henry W. Leyhe, the president of our association. St. Louis is his 
 home town and he has his home office there, and he will be active 
 and interested. He represents me. 
 
 The Secretary. This committee will be fairly representative of 
 the Lake, the Mississippi River, the Hudson River, and the Sound 
 interests, and of the shipbuilders and the naval architects. It is 
 not exclusive, however; it can add the names of others to its mem- 
 bership as it sees fit. 
 
 Mr. Brock. Mr. Secretary, there is not a friend of metal furniture 
 on that committee. 
 
 The Secretary. Mr. Brock, you are ^oing to live, are you not ? 
 I am not afraid of metal furniture suftering while you are alive, 
 especially when Mr. Dobson is here to back you up. 
 
62 
 
 A Voice. I would suggest Mi. Goodrich because I consider nim a 
 most advanced man, especially in the line of fire protection. 
 
 The Secretary. It will give me pleasure to add his name. 
 
 The Same Voice. In the laboratory in Chicago and in the fire 
 department he has been very active. 
 
 Mr. Newman. I think Mr. Goodrich should take my place. 
 
 The Secretary. I do not think even he would suggest that he 
 could do that. 
 
 I do not think this committee will call for a very serious amount 
 of time, but for a thoughtful amount of time, so to speak. Mr. 
 Benns is located here in Washington. It seems to me it would be 
 an excellent thing for this committee when it meets to make Mr. 
 Benns its secretary. He then would be in hourly touch with the 
 Department and with the two members of the committee from the 
 Department who are on it, and in that way he could save, with a 
 minimum of work for himself, a very large amount for the committee, 
 and any facihty we have would be at his disposal. 
 
 A Voice. Mr. Secretary, I wish you would ask that this commit- 
 tee meet this afternoon or evening. We ought to have a meeting 
 to-day. I am sure I think we could have such a meeting. 
 
 The Secretary. So many as favor the appointment of the com- 
 mittee suggested, including 6f course Mr. Goodrich's name, the 
 inclusion of which is a source of great satisfaction to me, wiU signify 
 by saying '^Aye.'' (The motion was adopted unanimously.) The 
 comrnittee may be considered as appointed, and the Chair will ask 
 that so many of the members of the committee as are here present 
 meet immediately at the adjournment in this room. 
 
 Is there anythmg further, Mr. Myrick, which occurs to you ? 
 
 Mr. Myrick. Nothing, but this: I do not express simply my 
 personal gratification, Mr. Secretary, at the manner in which tnis 
 conference has been conducted, but I am sure in what I have to say 
 I represent the opinion of every gentleman present. We are very 
 grateful to you for bringing us together; very grateful to you for 
 the admirable manner in which you have conducted this conference. 
 
 The Secretary. I thank you very much. I have great hopes as 
 to what may come from this. I have never been willing to believe, 
 
 fentlemen, that we can not do a thing merelv because it has not 
 een done. The history of our country is full of instances to the 
 contrary. I think we can do a great deal as a result of our meeting. 
 I take great pride in some of our work here because we are trying 
 to do the things which have never been done. You will notice my 
 handling this little thing here [displaying a vase]. It may seem a 
 trifling thing to you but it means a great deal to a great many people. 
 Those of you who have in your homes beautiful specimens of line 
 porcelains have nothing finer than this. There is no lead in the 
 glaze; no workman is poisoned in the making of this porcelain. 
 There is no imported material in it, and yet the great potteries of 
 Sevres and Germany have nothing more beautiful in the way of 
 perfect work than this little sample, which we made here in this 
 Department. It is just another new American industry. It has 
 been made out of American materials. Yet a year ago it had never 
 been done. I should Like to see a new motto in this country, and 
 that is, ''Americans can.'' 
 
63 
 
 T thank you very heartily for coming. The committee will meet at 
 its convenience. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 4.30 o'clock p. m., the conference adjourned and 
 the committee appointed met.) 
 
 At the request of Mr. Samuel Gompers the following telegram was 
 incorporated in the record: 
 
 Chicago, May 2, 1916. 
 lir. Samuel Gompers, 
 
 President American Federation of Labor, 
 
 801 G St. NW., Wash., D. C. 
 Advised that hearing on Steamboat-Inspection Service will be held at Washington 
 to-morrow at which you will be present. Earnestly request that you advocate the 
 installation of automatic-sprinkler equipments on steamboats and other forms of 
 vessels that are being considered at hearing mentioned. Favorable action will be of 
 material benefit to our members and serve as one of the greatest requirements for pro- 
 tection of life and property. Will thank you to advise me of what developments 
 may arise. 
 
 John R. Alpine. 
 
 o