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 E CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. 
 
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 .NNUAL STATEMENT 
 
 Honorable Sir Charles Tupper, 
 
 MINISTER OF RAILWAYS. 
 
 DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS 
 ON THE 4th MAY, 1883. 
 
 mo nt veal : 
 
 PRINTED BY II, ITE PRINTING COMPANY. 
 
 83-
 
 THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. 
 
 SIR CHARLES 
 
 The Government Policy Defended ; Opposition Statements confuted ; 
 
 to the country more than recouped by the Land Sales; The Progress 
 
 of construction ; Development of the North- West ; The Tide 
 
 of Immigration ; Winnipeg; and its Growth. 
 
 The following is the speech of Sir Charles Tupper on the Pacific Railway policy, of 
 the Government, delivered at Ottawa on Friday, May 4th, 1883, on the motion of Sir 
 Leonard Tilley that the House go into Committee of Supply : 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER, in rising to make his annual statement with reference to the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway, was received with loud and long continued applause- 
 He said : I regret very much, Mr. Speaker, that, owing to a severe attack 
 of inflammation of the throat, I was not able at the time proposed to make the 
 annual statement in relation to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I regret still more 
 that I fear the present state of my health will not enable me to do adequate justice to 
 the very important question that is submitted for the consideration of the House. 
 But I must, as meeting all shortcomings on my part, refer to the celebrated motto : 
 "Let the deed speak." I believe, Sir, that that great work now occupies a position in 
 the estimation of this House that renders it less necessary that any very lengthened 
 observations should be made in relation to it. It is not often that the promoters of a 
 great and important measure are able, after an experience of two years, to say that 
 all the most sanguine predictions that they ventured to offer in, support of the mea- 
 sure have been already more than realized. Yet, Sir, I am able to make that state- 
 ment on the present occasion. The contract made with the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company for the construction of that great work a work so great that my hon. friend 
 the leader of the late Government stated on an important occasion that all the re- 
 sources of the British Empire were not sufficient to ensure its construction within ten 
 years ; a work so great as to have bafHed the efforts that had been made by two Gov- 
 ernments to give it any very great prominence I say, Sir, that the contract for that 
 work required that it should be completed by the first day of July, 1891. We are en- 
 abled now to say that if the progress in future is equal to the progress of the past, 
 we may confidently accept the statement of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company 
 that by the end of December, 1886, that road will be completed from end to end. And 
 Sir, with the organization they have effected, with the progress they have already 
 made, with the preparations in hand for vigorously pushing that work to completion, 
 they will not require to make any greater exertions to accomplish that pledge than 
 they have required in the past, in order to push this great work.tp its present condi- 
 tion. That, Sir, will be four and a-half years before the time provided in the contract 
 ibr the completion of the work. And those, Sir, who have witnessed the great pro- 
 gress given to this country, the enormous impetus given to the advancement of this 
 country, by the vigorous and rapid prosecution of the work up to the present time, 
 will agree with me in the sentiment that to anticipate the date of completion by no 
 less than four years and a-half will be to confer upon Canada the greatest possible 
 boon and benefit. Nor, Sir, can it be stated that the fullest anticipations of the Gov- 
 ernment, the stroi gest assurances giren by us to this House in relation to the char- 
 acter of the work, have not been more than realized. I have laid upon the Table of 
 the House such fill and complete information with reference to the progress of this 
 work up to the p; esent time, or down to the very latest date, as will render it un- 
 necessary for me to detain the House at such great length, as I would otherwise feel 
 myself warrantee in doing, in reference to the progress $nd character of the work. 
 
 1290226
 
 But I am sure the House will permit me to refer to the evidence of the progress of 
 that work and the mode in -which it has l)een pushed forward up to the present time. 
 I read from the report of the General Manager, under date February 1st, 1883 ; in 
 reference to the Eastern Section he says : 
 
 " On the Eastern Division, owing to the broken nature of the country, its difficulty of access, and the 
 necessity of extensive surveys which C9nsumed much time, very rapid progress with the work of con- 
 struction has been impossible up to this time, but the track is now laid on the main line from Callander 
 westward to the Sturgeon River, a distance of forty miles. The grading is nearly completed for an addi- 
 tional distance of twenty miles, and is well advanced on a further section of ten miles. Beyond this 
 much work has been done in the way of clearing and road-making ; 2,300 men and 173 teams are now 
 employed on this work and it is expected that the grading will be completed and the track extended 
 about 100 miles farther west during the present year. 
 
 " On the Algoma Branch, which diverges from the main line a short distance west of the Wahnapi- 
 tae River, and thence follows a very direct line to Algoma Mills on Lake Huron, a distance of 100 miles, 
 the track has been laid from Algoma eastward twenty-five miles ; and the grading on the remainder of 
 the line is so far advanced as to justify the belief that it will be completed and ready for operation by 
 the end of the present season. This branch will afford a summer connection with the main line west 
 from Thunder Bay, pending the completion of the Lake Superior section of the railway. One thousand 
 and fifty men and eighty teams are employed on this branch at the present time. 
 
 " During the past season active operations were commenced from Prince Arthur's Landing, on 
 Thunder Bay eastward to the Nipigon River. The grading is already well advanced and several miles 
 of track have been laid, and it is expected that by the end of the present year the track will have been 
 laid to a point nnarly, or quite 100 miles east from Prince Arthur's Landing- There are now employed 
 on this section 1,150 men find 100 teams, and this force will be increased on the opening of navigation. 
 
 " The preliminary surveys of the remainder of the line north and east of Lake Superior have been 
 completed, and prove, beyond a doubt, the feasibility of the lines sought by the Company very near the 
 north shore of the lake. The final location of this line is proceeding rapidly, and it is the intention of 
 the Company to vigorously attack the work at all accessible points in the early spring. 
 
 "Much of the work on this section is very heavy, but keeping in view the competitive value of the 
 shortest possible through line, as well as the capitalized value of the saving in the cost of operation, th 
 Company have here, as on all other sections of their line, chosen the shortest possible route, notwith- 
 standing a largely increased immediate outlay." 
 
 I may say, Sir, that the progress, as was stated before, of the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way, has been entirely unprecedented. There has never, I think I am safe in saying, 
 in the history of the world, been an instance in which the same amount of progress 
 was made in the construction of any line of railway, from one end, as on the present 
 occasion. The great rapidity of construction from Winnipeg westwards, as I have 
 just said, more than exceeds, I believe, the construction of any line of railway in a 
 prairie country or otherwise, in any part of the world. It will be observed that in 
 fifty-three consecutive working days, from the 20th July to 20th September, 165 ffo 
 miles of main track, and 8 -$, - miles of side tracks, a total of 174 <ffo miles were laid 
 on the main line, being an average of 3.13 miles of main track for each working day, 
 and, including sidings, 3.29 miles per day. As I have said before, in the history of 
 the railway construction of the world, there has been no evidence of the progress of 
 the work being so rapid as in the present instance. Now, Sir, the next point that is 
 of importance in relation to this matter, is the mode in which the road has been con- 
 structed ; and I may say, Sir, that, on that point, I have evidence of a very high char- 
 acter, which, I think, will be accepted by the House. I have visited every portion of 
 the line from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg, I have passed over the line from Winnipeg 
 to a distance of 470 miles westward, which was constructed at the time I visited it 
 last autumn. The Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway has from time to 
 time visited the works, and has stated, on his own observation, and on that of com- 
 petent engineers employed under him, that this work was being carried on in a very 
 admirable manner. But Sir, I may venture to read to the House an unofficial letter, 
 written while I was on the other side of the Atlantic by Mr. Sandford Fleming, late 
 Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway a gentleman whose unbiassed 
 opinion and judgment, will, I believe, go very far in this House. Speaking of the 
 mode in which the work is being constructed, Mr. Fleming says, under date of the 
 8th August, 1882 : 
 
 " I was deeply interested in all that I saw, and the progress made in the Pacific Railway. I travelled 
 twice over the whole line from Fort William to the western end, about the 104th meridian, which, with 
 the Pembina branch, makes : 
 
 West of Winnipeg 350 
 
 East of Selkirk 410 
 
 Pembina Branch 85 
 
 ~845 
 Twice travelled over, making nearly 1,700 miles, on the Canadian Pacific Railway. 
 
 " Xo one could have been more deeply interested than mj-self, and I am bound to say the progress 
 and <( character of the work is far better than expected. 
 
 > " The men who compose the Syndicate are honestly carrying out their part of the contract ; they 
 have displayed wonderful energy and have been signally successful.
 
 " I congratulate the Government on the present state of affairs, and especially on Pacific Railway 
 progress. 
 
 " At Fort William I learned that the construction had practically commenced to Nipigon, and the 
 shore of Lake Superior is covered with engineers to locate the line on the different sections to Pic 
 
 " On the prairie the road bed is being raised, as it should be, three, four and five feet above the 
 prairie, with a view to working it in winter, and the present force is laying nearly 100 miles of track per 
 month." 
 
 I will add on this point, in addition to the statement of the prosecution of this work 
 which I have given by Mr. Sandford Fleming, the evidence of another gentleman, 
 whose name in connection with railway work will render him . an authority which 
 will be accepted in this House or out of it. I refer to Mr. C. J. Brydges. As to the 
 railway, I cannot do better than produce the description of it given by Mr. Brydges 
 to a reporter of the Winnipeg Times last August : 
 
 " The grading is being very well done, the banks being wide and of good height, the track kept well above 
 the level of the prairie, no cuttings anywhere, and good substantial pile openings to allow of the free 
 passage of water where necessary. From Flat Creek to Moose Jaw Bone Creek, the grading will average 
 about 17,000 yards to the mile. I do not believe that any prairie road has ever been built better or in a 
 more perfect and substantial manner, and very few roads, indeed, that I have seen in a long experience 
 have been so well constructed in the first instance. The rails are all of steel, with an excellent joint 
 having four bolts and nuts in each, and the sleepers average 2,640 per mile, thus securing ample strength 
 and solidity, and the whole is thoroughly well spiked throughout. There are now about 4,000 men em- 
 ployed in building the road, and 2,000 horses." 
 
 In addition, I may say that the number of sleepers as any person familiar with rail- 
 way construction will find is far beyond the average, a fact which greatly increases 
 the substantial character of the road ; that the bridges are being constructed of iron 
 with stone masonry, and that everything has been done from the commencement 
 down to the present time to give the Canadian Pacific Railway the highest possible 
 character as a first-class road in every respect. Although up to the time the contract 
 was made with the Company we had been unable to find any line north of Lake 
 Superior in which very severe grades were not encountered, although for a very con- 
 siderable distance after leaving Black Rock, at the head of Lake Nipigon, these grades 
 varied from 70 to upwards of 90 feet in the mile, the Company at a great cost had, 
 as Mr. Fleming graphically stated, covered the country with engineers and surveyors, 
 and notwithstanding the large amount of money which had previously been expended, 
 for surveys they have been able to secure a line which will carry us from Montreal 
 to the foot of the Rocky Mountains without encountering any grade over 52 feet to 
 the mile. Too great importance cannot be attached, as the House will readily see, to 
 the character of the grades on that portion of the road, because that is the portion of 
 the road upon which it will be in the interests of the country that the largest possible 
 amount of traffic should be moved at the minimum of cost. I may say, with reference 
 to that portion of the work which is under the immediate charge of the Government, 
 that the progress upon it has been very satisfactory. In making the contract with the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company the Government undertook to hand over the 
 works from Lake Superior to Red River at the time stated in the contract, which was 
 July, 1883. They did not expect that probably it would be possible as it 
 has not often been possible to complete works of such great magnitude and 
 attended with such difficulties as were presented, especially by Section " B," 
 within the time stated in the contract; but the rails were laid previous to 
 the time stated in the contract, that was the first day of July, 1882, giv- 
 ing facilities for the transport of traffic over the road from Thunder Bay to Winni- 
 peg, and the road would have been in an advanced state of completion but for the 
 interruption of the progress of construction by giving facilities to the traffic which 
 offered by the first day of July, of this year. The great importance of opening the 
 line for traffic from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg has induced the Government to make an 
 arrangement with the contractors, who have been carrying on to completion the works 
 in Section " B," and who were engaged in carrying the traffic under an arrangement 
 as it was impossible, for one party to undertake to operate the road while it was being 
 constructed by another an arrangement was made for carrying that traffic during 
 the past autumn by the contractors on the road. An arrangement is now being made 
 for the contractors to surrender the work in its present condition about $300,000 of 
 which contract remains to be done in order to complete it to transfer that to the 
 ^Canadian Pacific Railway Company, who will be enabled to carry the work to com- 
 pletion under the terms of the contract, and at the same time carry on the great 
 volume of traffic which did offer last autumn, and which we know will offer again 
 with the opening of navigation, so as to give all the immediate facilities for that com- 
 munication that are possible to be given. I may say, in relation to -that matter, that
 
 I stilted to the House, on a former occasion, that we expected to make a large saving, 
 something like $500,000 on Section " A," and something over $1,000,000 on Section 
 <( B ;" and I am glad to be able to say that those contracts will be completed, and that 
 the charge upon the country will not exceed the amounts which I have stated. They 
 will l>e completed, with a very large margin, under the original amount which was 
 'Contemplated on the extension of the prices when the contracts were let. I am satisfied 
 'that this arrangement will be one which will meet with the cordial approval of the 
 House, because, without an increased cost to the country, we will be able to give 
 the advantage to the people of Manitoba and the North- West of these increased 
 facilities for communication with the older portions of Canada, at a much earlier 
 ^period and under much more favorable circumstances than otherwise would have oc- 
 curred. When I tell the House that last autumn, with the road in an incomplete 
 state, and with only very indifferent facilities for carrying traffic, Messrs. Manning, 
 Macdonald & Co., the contractors for that portion ot the road, were able to carry 
 goods from Toronto to Winnipeg in six days, whereas it was not unusual to require 
 six weeks with all the efforts that could be made over a continuous line of road from 
 Toronto to Winnipeg, the importance and advantage to the country of having that 
 line open for traffic, will be so apparent as to require no further argument of mine to 
 convince the House. Now, Sir, I may say here, that so far as the works under the 
 charge of the Government in British Columbia are concerned, I am able to make an 
 equally favorable statement. The contracts with the contractors of British Columbia 
 require the completion of the works by the 1st of July, 1885, and I have every assur- 
 ance from the engineers who are supervising those works, and from the Chief Engineer 
 here, that there is no doubt that those contracts will be completed within the time 
 stated. I am also able to say, with an additional year's experience, that my estimate 
 -as to the cost to the country of the completion of those works does not require to be 
 anodified or changed. I am at issue, Sir, to some extent with my hon. friend the 
 leader of the Opposition, as to what that cost is ; and I am not surprised that on a 
 recent occasion he should have fortified his opinion by quoting the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Company in his favor. The House will remember that when the contract 
 was made with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company I stated that the amount to 
 be paid to the Company in cash was $25,000,000, and the amount of land to be granted 
 was 25,000,000 acres, and that I estimated that the 715 miles of road to be completed 
 by the Government, and handed overto-the Company, that portion between Thunder 
 Bay and Winnipeg on the one side, and between Savona's Ferry and Port Moody on 
 the other would cost $28,000,000. Some exception was taken to that statement, 
 because I was told that I had not charged the Company with a sufficient amount for 
 the surveys that all the expenditure made between Callander and Port Moody, and 
 from Victoria to Port Simpson, extending over a country nearly 3,000 miles in length, 
 and some 500 miles, at least in some parts, in width, ought to be charged to that part 
 of the work which we were handing over to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. 
 Well, Sir, I dissent from that view of the case ; but with that mode of charging all the 
 past expenditures the expenditure on the Georgian Bay Branch, the expenditures 
 on large parties of explorers who were sent out by the Government to explore the 
 character of the lands, quite irrespective of any line of railway, except in order to give 
 additional value to those lands with the view of our utilizing them for the purpose of 
 seeuring its construction all these expenditures are embraced, as my hon. friend 
 knows, in the $35,000,000. But as I have said, it is not wonderful that the Conadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, when going into the market for money, should have been 
 glad to take the highly colored statements of my hon. friend the leader of the Opposi- 
 tion in preference to mine. It was a better statement to show that they could quote 
 that high authority as proof of the correctness of their statement that they were re- 
 ceiving $35,000,000 of completed road, instead of $28,000,000, as I stated. But when I 
 state to the House that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have already paid on 
 the Eastern Section $9-1,178, and on the Central Section, $471,798, or a total pf $565,976 
 for surveys in connection with the location of their line, and that they expect to pay 
 $300.000 in addition before they have completed the location of the whole line, or a 
 total for surveys of $805,970, I think it will be seen that I could hardly, with propriety, 
 have charged those two portions of the road with all that $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 of ex- 
 penditure which lias been incurred during many years on surveys, and charged to the 
 Oanadian Pacific Railway account. That is the explanation I offer for tho difference 
 between the statement of my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, that the com- 
 pleted portions of the road should be valued at $35,000,000, and my statement which I 
 still adhere to, subject to the explanation I have offered to the House, that they
 
 5 
 
 *hould be valued at $28,000,000. I may say, Sir, in addition to that, that the expendi- 
 ture by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company for steamers will be no less thau 
 $850,000. They have already made contracts for the construction of three powerful 
 steamers to run between Algoma Mills and Thunder Bay. 
 Mr. MACKENZIE. On the water-stretches ? 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. On the water-stretches ; and I quite concur that it is alraost 
 impossible to overrate the importance to the country, during the three and a-half or 
 four years that will be required to complete the road north of Lake Superior, of havin 
 the rapid, cheap and convenient line of communication which those steamers wil 
 afford. By the construction of those steamers it is expected that the voyage will be 
 made from Algoma Mills to Prince Arthur's Landing within twenty-four hours, and 
 immigrants, therefore, arriving at Quebec wiil be able to pass up to Thunder Bay at a 
 comparatively small cost, and to be carried into the heart of our country without 
 taking that long and circuitous, and, in more respects than one, hazardous journey 
 through the United States, which they now have to make to reach the Territory. I 
 .mention that now in order to show the vigor that is being shown by the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, not only to push forward the work of the contract made 
 with the Government, but to provide every possible means to develop the country, 
 and to establish the cheapest and most convenient communication through it. The 
 distance from Callander Station, tho initial point of the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 proper, vid Kicking Horse Pass to Port Moody, will be 2,528 miles, being a saving of 
 119 miles as compared with the route by the Yellow Head Pass, and of seventy-nine 
 .miles, as compared with that going through the Kicking Horse Pass, and round by the 
 Big Bend of the Columbia River, that is, piercing the Selkirk range, after passing 
 through the Kicking Horse Pass, and getting direct across through to Kamloops, 
 instead of taking the circuitous route by the Yellow Head Pass, or the less circuitous, 
 but still very circuitous route by the Big Bend of the Columbia. Now, Sir, I am aware 
 that my hon. friend and predecessor will take great exception to the grades. I know 
 the strong view he has held on former occasions, and the strong statements he made 
 when the Bill passed through the House, with respect to giving power to the Govern- 
 ment to change the route from the Yellow Head Pass to a more southerly one. I know 
 that the hon. gentleman holds the strongest view with reference to the importance of 
 grades ; and I quite agree with him. There is no doubt that it would have been a very 
 serious matter, had such a grade as is proposed to be adopted, 116 feet to the mile, been 
 found necessary on the line between the Rocky Mountains and the city of Montreal ; 
 but my hon. friend will, I think, agree with me, that it is of vastly less consequence 
 to encounter a severe grade west of the foot of the Rocky Mountains, where we cannot 
 expect that the volume of traffic, at any rate, for many years, will be at all so great as 
 that for the transport of the cereals of the great North-West to the tide water at 
 Montreal. But the disadvantage of a grade of 116 feet to the mile will, I believe, be 
 .found to be more than counterbalanced by the shortened distance. I need not 
 detain the House at very much length on that point, because the statement from 
 the General Manager, which I have already laid upon the Table of the House, 
 . and which has been published, has dealt with it. I may be permitted, perhaps, briefly 
 to refer to it : 
 
 " From the summit of the Rocky Mountains, descending westerly to the Columbia Valley, a maximum 
 gradient of 90 feet to the mile can be secured, but it would involve excessive curvature, n large increase 
 in distance and in cost, and twice the time in construction, and inasmuch as helping engines will be 
 required in any case, I have thought it best to adopt a heavier and shorter grade, and the shortest prac- 
 ticable line. This section of the line, as located, is very heavy work, which cannot bo avoided; but it is 
 very direct, and the heavy gradients (116 feet per mile) are confined within a comparatively short dis- 
 tance." 
 
 I may say, Sir, that the plan which I laid upon the Table of the House, indicating 
 this grade, shows that, in going west, there is a distance of five miles, in which a grade 
 of 75 feet to the mile is encountered, in reaching the summit of the Rocky Mountains, 
 at Kicking Horse Pass. It is Ijelieved that grade can be avoided, and every effort will 
 be made to avoid it. Then, in going west, there will be but one grade of 116 to the 
 mile, and that for a distance of only twenty miles. In going east, which, as I have 
 "before stated, is of less importance, because the traffic will undoubtedly be very much 
 more limited, there will be two grades of 116 feet to the mile for the distance of twenty 
 miles each a distance which, as every onp familiar with railway management knows, 
 .is extremely convenient for the application of a pilot engine. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Two distances of twenty miles east ? 
 
 .Sir CHARLES TUPPBR. Yes ; two grades ; but only one, I maj- say to my hon.
 
 6 
 
 friend, of 11G feet to the mile for twenty miles going west ; but coming east there are 
 two. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. On the west side of the Rockies ? 
 
 Sir CHAELES TUPPBE. Yes ; I may say that in this respect the Canadian Pacific 
 will compare most favorably with any of the other Pacific Railways. On the Northern 
 Pacific, gradients as high as 118 feet to 130 feet to the mile are used. It is well- 
 known that on that portion of the Union Pacific Railway line, the extension of it 
 over the Central Pacific Railway, gradients are frequently encountered of 116 feet 
 to the mile ; and yet, as is well-known, very rapid time has been made when occasion 
 required over the Union and Central Pacific Railways. I have evidence and 
 information with reference to a number of roads in the United States performing an 
 enormous amount of traffic in which the grades are as severe as, or more severe, 
 than those to which I have alluded as likely to be encountered as the best we can 
 do in passing through the Kicking Horse Pass over the Selkirk Range. But, Sir, 
 there is not only the saving in distance that is important, the saving in time, the saving 
 in the cost of transport of freight and passengers whieh will be very much less by the 
 shorter line 79 miles shorter than by the Big Bend of the Columbia it will not be only 
 the saving in the cost of transport of freight and passengers that will occur, but a most 
 important advantage to be gained by the country is that, by the Yellow Head Pass, 
 we come down through a very unattractive country, to say the least, all the way to 
 Kamloops, and from the time you entered the Rocky Mountains at the Yellow Head Pass 
 until you had gone down to Port Moody, there was comparatively little country that 
 was available for any extensive settlement ; whereas, as my hon. friends from British 
 Columbia can point out much more fully and accurately than I can, the line now 
 proposed by the Kicking Horse Pass and the Selkirk Range will carry us through the 
 Kamloops country where there is the largest portion of British Columbia available 
 for settlement. The value to the country, the value to the Government of the belt of 
 land along that line will be incalculably greater than along the line which 
 was previously projected, and I am satisfied that the more the question 
 is ^ examined, the more it will be found in the interests of Cadada that 
 this shorter line should be adopted. By the adoption of this shorter line, and by the 
 construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the thorough and efficient manner in 
 which it is being constructed, we believe we shall not only be able to offer the best 
 and most available line of communication to the Pacific Ocean, the cheapest, best and 
 shortest route for even the inhabitants of New York, but quite possibly to bring a 
 large portion of the traffic between Chicago and San Francisco over the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway. And, as a national line, it is impossible to overrate the importance 
 of having the most direct and rapid line of communication, competing, as we are, as 
 hon. gentlemen know, with the Northern Pacific Railway, some few hundred miles 
 only to the south of us, and where I should not be glad to say, but I am able to say 
 much more severe grades will be encountered than through the route to which I 
 have alluded. Then the location has been approved except from the Wanapitae 
 River to the Nepigon River on the Eastern Section, a distance of 483 miles. As I 
 have already told the House, the Government have been extremely gratified to learn 
 that the large expenditure and great efforts made by the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company have enabled them to locate a line, so far as all the diffieulties to be en- 
 countered are concerned, as they are now known, infinitely superior to any that the 
 Government had been able to obtain through that district, and, as I have already 
 stated, a line which will enable us to pass from the foot of the Rocky Mountains to 
 Montreal without encountering any grade as high as 53 feet to the mile. Parties are 
 now being engaged at both ends of this section of 483 miles, and that location will be 
 completed during the ensuing season, and not only have very improved grades 
 been obtained, but the character of the country has been found to surpass anything 
 we had previously supposed. The region that is now pierced by the line already in 
 operation to the Sturgeon River opens up one of the finest timber districts to be found 
 in any part of Canada, and the mineral wealth that is now being developed on the 
 line from the north of Lake Superior to Prince Arthur's Landing, promises at an early 
 day to be a source of enormous wealth to the country, and to furnish a very large 
 amount of traffic to the Canadian Pacific Railway. Then from the crossing of the 
 South Saskatchewan to Savona's Ferry 660 miles yet remains to be located. I should 
 not say remain to be located, because 300 miles of that, to the summit of Kicking 
 Horse Pass is now located, all but the completion of the plans, and ready for the ap- 
 proval of the Government ; and, as I stated before, if any unforseen difficulty should 
 arise when we come to have the line presented beyond the Kicking Horse Pass, up to-
 
 the point where we do not encounter these heavy grades any more difficulty than is 
 held out by Major Rogers to the Company in piercing the Selkirk Range, it will be 
 quite practicable still to take the location round by the Big Bend of the Columbia, 
 and shorten the line considerably compared with what the line by the Yellow Head 
 Pass would have been. Parties, to meet from the east and west, are already going to 
 work on this remaining distance from the summit of the Rocky Mountains to Kam- 
 loops, and it is expected that during the present season, that location will not only be 
 completed, but the facility that will shortly be afforded for proceeding with the work 
 efficiently both east and west, will secure, as I have already stated, without greater 
 effort on the part of the Company than they have already made, the entire comple- 
 tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway from end to end by the close of December, 1886. 
 Of the entire line of 2,528 miles, the track is laid, and in good condition for passing 
 trains from Callander to Sturgeon River, forty miles ; from east of Current River to 
 Prince Arthur's Landing, six miles ; from Prince Arthur's Landing to Red River, 
 432 miles; from Red River to Colloy's Statior, 626 miles, and twenty-eight miles in 
 British Columbia, or 1,132 miles ready for the passage of trains, leaving on the main 
 line 1,396 miles to be ironed. From Callander to Montreal is 347 miles, making the 
 total distance from Montreal to Port Moody, 2,875 miles. I may, perhaps, be allowed, 
 in referring to that, to draw the attention of the House for a moment to a passage in 
 the prospectus of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, as to the advantage of this 
 line as a through line : 
 
 " It is worthy of note that the distance from New York to San Francisco by the shortest railway 
 line through the United States is 3,331 miles, while by the Canadian Pacific Railway, from Montreal to 
 Port Moody (its Pacific terminus), it will be 2,906 miles," 
 
 And more recent investigation and surveys since the publication of this report reduces 
 that to 2,835 miles. 
 
 " And from New York via Brockville and the Canadian Pacific Railway, it will be 3,164 miles ; and 
 that the distance by the shortest line in the United Statest from Chicago to San Francisco is 2,408 miles, 
 while from Chicago to Port Moody, by the way of St. Paul and Winnipeg and the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway, it will be 2,342 miles. Considering the direction taken by the steamships on the Atlan- 
 tic and Pacific Oceans, and the shortness of the Company's line across the continent, its completion will 
 very materially shorten the time occupied in the journey between the ports of China and Japan and 
 those of Europe ; and with its advantages in distance, in light grades, and in the use of its own railway 
 from seaboard to seaboard, the Canadian Pacific Railway will certainly be in a position to command its 
 full share of the Trans-Pacific traffic as well as that of an extensive section of the Pacific coast." 
 
 I may say that, in addition to the main line constructed by the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Company, no less than 281 miles of branches will shortly be completed by 
 the Company without any cost whatever to the Government, and, in addition to that, 
 110 miles if the extension of the south-western road, and 180 miles from the Pacific 
 Railway to the Souris coalfields are already located, and I have no doubt whatever 
 will be constructed within the ensuing two years,giving a very large additional amount 
 of railway communication to the country, just as valuable so far as the development 
 and opening up of the country is concerned, if not more so, than the construction of 
 the CanadianPacific Railway proper. Subsidies paid by the Government,exclusive of the 
 advances on rails, have been on the Eastern Section forty miles $615,384, and the 
 land grant, 384,600 acres. On the Central Section, 601 miles, twenty miles have been 
 added since the last return was laid upon the Table of the House within the last 
 week, making 601 miles on that section the subsidy was $6,010,000, and the land 
 grant 7,500,000 acres. Thus, the total cash payment has been $6,625,384, and the land 
 grant 7,879,100 acres. The payment by the Government, inclusive of $1,248,627 ad- 
 vances on rails, makes a total of cash paid up to the present time of $7,874,011. The 
 outlay by the Government on the Lake Superior section, down to the latest date, last 
 month, is $13,373,500. On the Western section, to January 31st., 1883, the outlay was 
 $5,412,500, making a total of cash paid of $18,786,000. To that I must add the cost of 
 the Pembina Branch, of $1,480,883. The cost of these works to the country and I 
 am not including in this statement the outlay for all the surveys over the whole 
 territory for so many years, but only that portion which belongs to these particular 
 works up to the present date is $20,266,883 for the two sections. The total outlay, 
 including the cash subsidy paid by the Government to date, is therefore, $28,140,894. I 
 may now remark in passing, Sir, that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have 
 expended, down to the 31st March on the construction of the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way and branches west of Callander, without any reference to the sections in this 
 part of the country, the sum of $24,571,412. I got this information by telegraphic 
 communication to-day from Mr. Drinkwater, the Secretary of the Company, and I 
 give it to the House, because, as I have stated before, I endeavor, as fast as I obtain 
 information in connection with this important work, to lay it as fully as is in my
 
 8 
 
 power before the House for consideration. The line in operation west or 
 Winnipeg extends to Swift Current, a distance of 512 miles. Now, Sir, 
 having given a general outline of the amount of work performed, and of 
 the cost to the country of this work, so far as it has proceeded, I digress a little for 
 the purpose of noting, more briefly than I would have otherwise done, in consequence 
 of the condition of my health, some remarks that were made by my hon. friend the 
 leader of the Opposition. I observe, Sir, that great anxiety has been exhibited by I 
 will not say the organ of the hon. gentleman, but leading organs of public opinion 
 representing the views of hon. gentlemen opposite lest I, or the Government, should 
 allow the deeply interesting speeches of my hon. friend, on two occasions during the 
 present Session, respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, to pass unchallenged great 
 anxiety seems to be manifested lest these speeches, which were held to be overwhelm- 
 ing and unanswerable indictments of the Government, should pass unnoticed by this 
 side of the House. But, Sir, I do not know that there is any particular necessity for 
 answering those speeches at all. I mean no disrespect to my hon. friend in saying 
 that, because everybody knows that the manner in which he devotes himself to this 
 question, and the care with which he acquaints himself with everything connected 
 with it, render the views he presents to the House upon it of very great importance. 
 But there is a sufficient reason why no answer was required ; his speeches have been 
 answered already. The hon. gentleman, it is true,brought the prospectus of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway here, and painted the position and prospects of that great work before 
 the House, and on the wings of the press, before the country, in a still more highly 
 colored form than even the Company have ventured to present them. But I say I am 
 not aware that any answer is required, for the simple reason that, glowing as was the 
 picture which my hon. friend presented to the house as to the enormous bargain that 
 had been obtained by this company at the cost of the country ; vivid as was the 
 picture the hon. gentleman drew of the untold millions of profit this Company was 
 going to make out of the country vivid as his picture was, I say, it was pale in com- 
 parison with that which the hon. gentleman delivered a year before. It was, in no 
 sense, as highly colored as the statement which the hon. gentleman made with equal 
 ability, and equal earnestness, on the other side of the House last Session. When I 
 call the attention of the House to the fact that a year ago, under the manipulation of 
 my hon. friend, the land was worth $3 to $4 an acre, and that now he calculated it to 
 be worth only 2.68 per acre, it will be seen that, instead of increasing the strength of 
 his statement, he has greatly decreased it. But of this strong and highly colored 
 statement, delivered by the hon. gentleman on the floor of Parliament, and distributed 
 by the press all over the country, what was the result ? Why, the hon. gentleman 
 got his answer. He got his answer in the fact that in his own Province, in the centre 
 of his influence, a large and overwhelming majority of the people sent gentlemen to 
 this House to sustain the Government and its policy with respect to the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway. Down in the Province of Prince Edward Island the hon. gentleman 
 was unable to obtain a majority. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Hear, hear. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPBR. Yes, Sir, in Prince Edward Island, where the hon. leader of 
 the Conservative party had been struck down, where the party had been left without 
 a leader, notwithstanding every advantage, the hon. gentleman was unable to obtain 
 a majority in that Province, and cannot count one here to-day. So in the Province of 
 Nova Scotia, two-thirds of the representatives of the people in that Province have come- 
 back here to endorse the Canadian Pacific Railway contract, notwithstanding the 
 statements the hon. gentlemen made were far stronger than those of the present 
 Session. So in New Brunswick, which was considered to be the banner Province of 
 hon. gentleman opposite, the people sent double the number of men to support my 
 hon. friend the Minister of Finance, that he had previously. In Quebec, the hen. 
 gentleman knows, the red disappeared. I will not say it disappeared entirely from 
 the picture, but the red paled before the blue. And in the Province of Ontario with 
 the great question of Provincial rights, the great Boundary question, to agitate, excite, 
 and influence the people, even there the hon. gentleman was unable to get anything 
 like an equal proportion of the representatives of that Province to condemn the con- 
 tract for the Canadian Pacific Railway. So, Sir, I say if I had allowed his speech to 
 pass unanswered by myself, it would still not have been unanswered, because he has 
 had that best and most effective of all answers the verdict of a free and intelligent 
 people, upon a statement of the case far stronger than that which the hon. gentleman 
 now, with the prospectus of the Canadian Pacific Railway in his hands, was able to 
 make before this House. Sir, what is his statement ? The hon. gentleman says tha*
 
 'Oanadian Pacific Railway Company have made a profit, that is now demonstrable 
 from the prospectus they have published, and from the evidence he has, that that 
 profit amounts to some $37,000,000, which he makes up in this way. He says it is 
 ascertained, by the land sales of the Canadian Pacific Railway, that the present value 
 of the land is $2.68 per acre, and in consequence the Government, in the 25,000,000 
 acres of land, pay the Company $67,000,000. He says the Company's receipts would, 
 by their subsidy of $25,000,000, Government Railways $35,000,000, including the 
 $6,000,000 on surveys, which I have shown, have not been of much value to the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway Company, although they put them in their prospectus, and the 
 proceeds of the lands already sold, $17,300,000, or a total of $77.300,000. The value of 
 the unsold lands will be $49,500,000, making the total receipts $126,800,000. Now, Sir, 
 when I was discussing the question of the Canadian Pacific Railway contract in this 
 House in the first instance, I made a calculation based upon $1 per acre for the lands. 
 What authority had I for considering that the lands might fairly be calculated at $1 
 per acre ; I had, in the first place, a very remarkable statement bearing upon that 
 question, made by the late hon. Minister of Finance in his place in this House. Under 
 the contract made with Mr. Foster for the construction of the Georgian Bay Branch, 
 he was to receive from the Government a certain amount of money, and 20,000 acres 
 <of land per mile for this road. As my hon. friend then leader of the Government 
 stated, the Government had no lands except in the North- West, and the 20,000 acres 
 per mile had therefore to be land in the North-West. Mr. Foster endeavored, after he 
 made that contract with the Government, to carry it out. He went to New York, and 
 tried to get money in England, but was unable to obtain the means of carrying out 
 his contract. He came back to the Government, and, as was explained by the late 
 Minister of Finance, he stated to them : " If you will give me 20 cts. an acre, and 
 give me the money, I will give you the land and carry out your contract ; but they 
 refused to do it. The late Government, therefore, refused to consider the land in the 
 North-West, when the whole country was open to choose and select from to the ex- 
 tent of 1,500,000 acres worth 20 cts. an acre, and my hon. friend the leader of the late 
 Government gave a very sufficient reason for the course, which they then adopted 
 which was, that so remote was the country, and so difficult of access at that time, that 
 it was not easy to obtain settlement, and that it would not pay persons to go there and 
 settle. But I "hold in my hand a return of all the land sold from 1872 the time the 
 country came into our possession down to 1880. What was the value of the land in 
 the then condition of the country ? This return shows that in the whole of that 
 period, the Goverment had disposed of in preemptions and in sales, for scrip and cash, 
 1,929,619 acres of land. How much money did they receive? They received $251,- 
 777.50, and there was owing to them $356,761.23, or, in all, cash to the amount of 
 $608,538.73 if they had obtained it. How much was that equal to per acre ? It was 
 equal to 31 cts. per acre. 
 
 Mr. MACKENZIE. That is embracing the preemption ? 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes, embracing the preemption. The gross amount re- 
 ceived, or to be received for a great deal of it was on credit, as I have explained 
 for the preempted lands, and for the lands sold for scrip and cash, was only 31 cents 
 per acre; and when the expenses were taken off, it would be brought down to 20 cents 
 per acre. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. You treat the scrip as cash. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I treat the scrip as cash. The scrip and cash, in all, 
 amounted to less than $1,000,000. Under these circumstances, it did not appear very 
 much out of the way, with the evidence we had, to value the lands at $1 per acre. 
 But. supposing these lands have become more valuable since, what has made them so ? 
 I appeal to my hon. friends from the North-West, and am quite indifferent to which 
 side ot the House they belong. I do not mean to say that I would not like to see 
 them all seated on this side, for I would like to very much ; and I do not believe there 
 are any representatives in this Parliament on whom the Government have such 
 claims as on the representatives of that country but I appeal to those hon. gentlemen 
 to say what the effect has been on the value of lands in the North-West, of the vigor- 
 ous prosecution of this great national work by the present Government. If my hon. 
 friend is able now to charge me $2.68 an acre for the land, he is ablo to do so only in 
 conseqence of the vigorous policy we pursued in reference to that work to the very 
 contract that was made with, and the manner in which it is being carried out by the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway. According to my estimate, if the hon. gentleman puts as 
 cash the subsidy at $25,000,000, and the lands at $2.68 an acre I shall have some-
 
 10 
 
 thing to say about that by-and-bye that will give him, for the lands, $67,000,000. The 
 road buil*. by the Government I put still at $28,000,000. That makes a total of $120,- 
 000,000. But suppose the hon. gentleman could induce anybody to believe that it 
 would be right to charge that contract with $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 expended in sur- 
 veys away to Port Simpson and Bute Inlet, and from James to Hudson Bays, all over 
 the country in every direction, it would only make $127,000,000. Now that, accord- 
 ing to the hon. gentleman's own showing, is the outside amount that he considers he 
 can charge the Government for the construction of that work. It is the hon. gentle- 
 man's own estimate of the cost. Supposing we paid the $127,000,000, supposing we 
 accept his statement of the value of the land I shall show by-and-bye what an ex- 
 traordinary statement it is what would it amount to ? It would only furnish the 
 money that the hon. gentleman himself, after years of examination, declared this 
 country would have to pay for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. The 
 hon. gentleman would now make us believe that we had made an extravagant bar- 
 gain with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, that we had made them a present 
 of $37,000,000. If that was the case no one is so much to blame as the hon. gentleman 
 himself. If we did not make a better bargain, it was because the Government of 
 which he was long a member, decried the possibility of constructing the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway at all within any reasonable period, because the hon. gentleman 
 could not be made to believe in the value of the lands of that country. If we did not 
 make a better bargain, none are more responsible than those gentlemen, who, when 
 the Government asked their support to enable them to use 100,000,000 acres of land 
 in the North- West to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway, obstructed them at 
 every possible turn. We hoped, when we made this contract, that we were going to 
 lift the Canadian Pacific Railway question out of the arena of party politics alto- 
 gether. We believed that one of the great difficulties we would have, as a Govern- 
 ment, in going on with the work, was the importance to hon. gentlemen in Opposition 
 of obstructing us at every turn, and preventing our being able to proceed \vith the 
 work as vigorously as necessary ; and we hoped, when making a contract with a Com- 
 pany, composed especially of the hon. gentleman's own friends, that we should have 
 reached that point in the consideration of the question that would have taken it out 
 of the arena of party politics. We were unfortunately not able to do that. When I 
 was here asking the House to assist me, as Minister of Railways, in going on with the 
 construction of that work ; when I stated, with the view of appeasing all hostility of 
 hon. gentlemen opposite to the construction of that great work at all, that I proposed, 
 in the first instance, to open up the prairie district of the country, which the hon. 
 gentleman now says should have been opened up vigorously by the Govarnment in 
 the first instance, did my hon. friend support me ? No ; he treated the road I was pro- 
 posing to build as unworthy the name of a railway. I was compelled to admit, and 
 did admit, that I was proposing to construct the cheapest possible railroad in the first 
 instance, in order to open up the country for settlement in order to get people into 
 it who would be able to sustain a railway. The hon. gentleman on that occasion 
 said : 
 
 "Again, of course, the through traffic depends on the road being first-class, and we must remember 
 that, after we have spent all the hon. Minister proposes, we shall have, not a Pacific, but a colonization 
 road." 
 
 He condemned my plan to build a prairie road for the purpose of getting in settlers. 
 What did he further say ? He told the House, and he told the country, through the 
 medium of the press, of the danger that was being incurred through the enormous 
 character of the work that this Government was entering upon, and having bad the 
 advantage of the calculations made by his colleague, the hon. Minister of Public Works, 
 my predecessor, he gave to this House a careful and accurate calculation of what not 
 a colonization railway, but a Canadian Pacific Railway worthy of the name, would 
 cost the people of this country. He said : 
 
 "According to the old system of construction, that Central Section would cost, including the other 
 item I have mentioned, altogether over $42,500.000, leaving out entirely both ends. 
 
 So that the hon. gentleman himself has declared, in the most formal manner, after 
 years of consideration, after ten years of examination of this question with all that 
 astuteness which the hon. gentleman brings to bear upon every question that comes 
 before this House, that the prairie section of the line would cost $42,500,000, harging 
 it with the $6,000,000 previously spent on the surveys. What more did he say ? 
 Why, Sir, he says : 
 
 " What are the ends to cost? $45,000,000 in, as I have stated, the cost from Edmonton to Burrard 
 Inlet on the west ; and from Fort William to Nipissing on the east, the hon. member for Lambton esti- 
 mates at a length of about 650 miles."
 
 11 
 
 And we still find i . to be 650 miles. 
 
 " and a cost of $32,500, 000. Thus the ends innke np together $77,000,000, the centre and the past expen- 
 diture $12,500,000, making a total of $120,000,000." 
 
 So I say, assuming the hon. gentleman to be able to charge us with $2.68 an acre foi 
 the land, the payment for the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway to these 
 gentlemen would be $127,000,000 ; and the hon. gentleman here has a charge as the 
 lowest cost at which the Canadian Pacific Railway can be constructed, of $120,000,000. 
 The hon. member for Lambton added $1,500,000, 1 suppose, for contingencies to that, 
 and put it at $121,500,000. And yet the hon. gentleman, now that he knows that it is 
 being constructed as a first-class road, now that he knows there is no road on this con- 
 tinent that will be a better road than the Canadian Pacific Railway, when it is com- 
 pleted as it is now being constructed, must admit that instead of there being any such 
 margin of profit as he has intimated, and taking it by his own estimates, the amount 
 at which Government has secured the construction of the road is a fair and reasonable 
 one. Because it must not be forgotten that many of the other calculations of hon. gentle- 
 men on both sides of this House always admitted that for many years to come it would 
 be impossible to operate a through line when constructed without doing it at a con- 
 siderable cost. Let me say a word here as to this $35,000,000 that the hon. gentleman 
 says the Government gave the Company for the construction of that road. I say 
 there is not'an intelligent man in this House, there is not an hon. gentleman on either 
 side of this House, that will not say that it would have been doing a wise thing in the 
 interests of this country when we had completed that 715 miles of railway if we could 
 have induced parties with ample resources to stock and operate the road without 
 making any charge upon us for doing so ; so that the $35,000,000 was wisely expended 
 so far as the interests of the public and the country were concerned, because the hon. 
 gentleman knows that the companies and the parties with whom he was co-operating 
 shrank from the contemplation of that portion of the Canadian Pacific Railway from 
 the foot of the Rocky Mountains down to the shores of Port Moody on the Pacific 
 Ocean. Well, Sir, let me take the hon. gentleman in another way. As I have said, 
 we have the advantage, and we had the great advantage, in making this contract, of 
 having the views of hon. gentlemen opposite as to what it would be wise and judicious 
 for us to offer to any person to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway ; we had the 
 fact that they had invited tenders all over the world, in Great Britain, in the United 
 States, wherever there was the slightest chance of getting a tender accepted they had 
 made an absolute offer of $10,000 cash per mile and 20,000 acres of land per mile. 
 They said to the parties, not how much less land will you do it for, but how much 
 money must we pay you 4 per cent, on in order to induce you to construct the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway along with the $10,000 cash and the 20,000 acres of land per 
 mile ? Now, Sir, the length of road at that time consisted of 2,627 miles of the main 
 line ; the Pembina branch, eighty-five miles, the Georgian Bay Branch, eight-five 
 miles, making altogether 2,797 miles of road as projected by the hon. gentlemen 
 opposite. The cash subsidy of $10,000 per mile that they offered, and offered without 
 being able to get a bid from any person, was equal to $27,970,000 in cash. The land 
 grant of 10,000 acres per mile, at $2.68 per acre, the price that the hon. gentleman 
 declares this land was worth, amounts to $149,919,200. Now, I think as to the addi- 
 tional amount, I am safe in taking the hon. gentleman's own estimate of the Foster 
 contract In the Foster contract the hon. gentleman bound himself to pay 4 per cent, 
 on $7,400 per mile for twenty-five years ; that applied to the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 would have given a further gum in cash to be paid by Canada of $20,997,500, or, in all, 
 $48,947,500 in cash, $149,919,200 in land, at $2.68 an acre, making a grand total of 
 $198,866,700. Now, Sir, I ask the hon. gentleman whether we are not in a position to 
 congratulate the people of this country for having deprived him and his friends of an 
 opportunity of securing the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway at a cost to 
 this country of $198,866,700 ? I defy the hon. gentleman to escape from this 
 conclusion in any possible manner. Either the land has a right to be charged 
 at that, or it has not, and as the hon. gentleman charges the same price for lands 
 250^ miles from any railway te-day and 250 miles from the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, he puts it down at $2.68 an acre, the same as that alongside the track I 
 say I am warranted in applying the same rule to the hon. gentleman on this question. 
 The hon. gentleman knows that in that land arrangement he has the benefit of the 
 grant to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company of all theJands in Manitoba the odd- 
 numbered sections in Manitoba that were available for the Canadian Pacific Railway. 
 The hon. gentleman knows that he has the advantage of all the lands available along 
 the line of the Canadian Pacific Railway to Moose Jaw Creek, and that the balance of 
 the lands remaining, to be obtained by the Canadian Pacific Railway, are to be taken
 
 12 
 
 mainly out of a belt fixed upon by agreement with the Company, between the 52nd>: 
 and 54th parallels of north latitude, from 100 to 250 miles away from any railway 
 whatever, and that the only way by which that land can be made worth $2.68 an. 
 acre is the same way by which they made the land worth $2.68 an acre that they 
 have sold. And what was that? Why, not only by building the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, but by building, as I have shown, 281 miles of branches, at their own cost, 
 and thus open up and render that land in Southern Manitoba valuable. But the hon. 
 gentleman wants to go back to his old policy of dropping off both ends and building 
 the prairie section. The hon. gentleman's policy was contained in what may be 
 called the Sir William P. Rowland's syndicate's offer. And what was that offer? Let 
 me consider it for a single moment in relation to this work. Was it a better offer for 
 the purpose of securing the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway on more 
 favorable terms, even taking the lands at the exaggerated value placed upon them by 
 the hon. gentleman ? Let me invite the attention of the House to it. The hon. gen- 
 tleman knew, and every man who placed his name to that offer knew, it never could 
 have any practical value or effect until there was a change of Administration ; and 
 unless this House could be induced to refuse to ratify the contract made by this Gov- 
 ernment, and to which the faith of Canada had been pledged as well as that of our 
 own, as far as a Government is able to pledge the faith of the country, the hon. gen- 
 tleman knew that no man sitting on the Treasury benches under those circumstances, 
 the Government having made a bargain in good faith and submitted it to this House 
 for ratification, would be worthy of his position if he had listened to any proposal 
 coming from any other quarter, and especially from a quarter which would not touch 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway until the Government were bound hard and fast by a 
 contract What did their proposal amount to ? It contained the very curious pro- 
 vision one that ran on all fours with the hon. gentleman's policy, propounded then 
 and advocated now namely, to build the prairie section and leave the two ends of 
 the line to take care of themselves. The hon. gentleman knew that the offer could 
 not be accepted by us, and that if the House did not ratify the contract we placed be- 
 fore it, we would have to go to the other side of the House, and the hon. gentleman 
 and his supporters would take our places. And then what would have been the po- 
 sition ? The position would have been that the leader of the Government, the pre- 
 sent leader of the Opposition, stood pledged before the world to abandon the two ends 
 and build the prairie section, for in the proposal of Sir Wm. Rowland and his asso- 
 ciates, it was stated that the Company would be willing to drop the 
 two ends if the Government wished them to do so. Very well, we will 
 see what their proposal really was. It was that for the prairie sec- 
 tion, 900 miles, they should receive a cash subsidy of $7,333.33 per mile, 
 equal to $6,600,000 ; also 10,000 acres of land per mile, which, at $2.68 per acre would 
 be equal to $24,120,000, or a total amount of $30,720,00(K. That was not all. They were 
 to have the road, from Winnipeg to Thunder Bay, built by the Government, and also- 
 the Pembina Branch, and that would have added $16,261,900, making the gross value, 
 $46,981,900, or $52,202 per mile for the prairie section. That was the policy to which 
 the hon. leader of the Opposition stood committed, the only policy which could have 
 been carried out if the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's contract could have been 
 defeated; and I leave the hon. gentleman to say whether, in the light of those facts, 
 he thinks it would have been better for Canada if the Howland Syndicate scheme of 
 construction admitting that the hon. gentleman's valuation of the land to be correct 
 had been accepted, instead of the policy adopted by the Government, by which a 
 magnificent backbone is given to this country by the construction of a through line 
 of railway, to be completed within some four years, from end to end of this Dominion, 
 so that passengers will be able to travel in the same car from the city of Halifax 
 until they reach Port Moody, on the shores of the Pacific, running through our own 
 territory, instead of by a circuitous route through the United States. I ask the hou. 
 gentleman whether he is able to-day to stand up in the presence of this House and the 
 the, country, and to affirm that it would have been abettor policy to have abandoned 
 all the great national features of this project, and to have abandoned the construction 
 of this railway that is indispensable to the security of the North- West, independent of 
 every other consideration ? The hon. gentleman knows that, cut off during six 
 months of the year from the rest of the Dominion by the United States, the very ex- 
 istence of the North- West might at any moment have been imperilled if we did not 
 possess a through line of communication within our own country by which we could 
 pass rapidly from one section to another. I ask whether, in view of that fact, the hon. 
 gentleman would have taken the responsibility of committing the Government of 
 which he was a member, or the Parliament of which he was an honored member, to-
 
 13 
 
 breaking faith with British Columbia and violating me agreement entered into be- 
 tween the Provincial Government, the Imperial Government, and the Canadian Gov- 
 ernment, and cutting off from the Dominion that valuable Province on the Pacific 
 Coast ? I ask the hon. gentleman whether he would have handed over, at those- 
 enormous figures which he has mentioned, the construction of the prairie section, and 
 have left poor Canada to have constructed such sections of the line as would bo un- 
 profitable, and to have left us for an indefiite period to carry our traffic over American 
 lines to Chicago, and find a seaport at New York, instead of by the great national line 
 of inter-communication, by which passengers and freight would be carried from one 
 end of the Dominion to the other, through our own country, over our own road, and 
 independent of foreign lines ? I have told the House what the effect would be even 
 of open:'n * the line from Lake Superior to Winnipeg on the means of transportation, 
 and the progress and development of the great North- West. The hon. gentleman 
 must see that at this hour of the day to come back with this feeble, impotent and 
 miserable policy, as I think I may fairly term it, of abandoning the great national 
 line of communication that is to give us intercourse rapidly and cheaply between the 
 different portions of the Dominion, and hand over the work to a company to build at 
 enormous figures nothing more than the prairie section, is trifling with the intelli- 
 gence of this House and with the intelligence of the people of this country. 
 But I will take the hon. gentleman for a moment in another way. He says it is not 
 certain but that the construction of branches will be attended with danger. Danger 
 to whom ? Is it dangerous to Canada to have opened up at a large expenditure various 
 lines of communication through the North- West and other sections of the Dominion ? 
 Is it dangerous to Canada to have the Algoma Branch constructed, which is going to 
 give us within a year from to-day, a line by which traffic can pass very cheaply 
 through the heart of the country instead of by a circuitous route, 600 or 700 semes 
 longer, through the United States ? It is impossible for any one to over-rate the value 
 to the North- West of the construction of the Algoma Branch during the short period 
 of three or four years before the line along the north shore of Lake Superior will be 
 completed. Not only so, but it is important to look at the position of the older por- 
 tions of Canada. Look at the position of this portion of the country engaged in manu- 
 facturing products, many of which find a market in the North- West, and the advantage 
 to the people in the older portions of the country of having this cheap and rapid inter- 
 communication between that great North- West country which is being so rapidly 
 developed and their own manufacturing industries. Anything in a contrary direction 
 will not, in my judgment, bear a moment's consideration. But suppose these branches 
 a-e carried out, and there is no question that the expenditure involved in carrying to- 
 completion the roads now rapidly to be proceeded with in the shape of branches, will 
 
 cost the Canadian Pacific Railway $20,000 per mile 
 
 Mr. B&AKE. Hear, hear. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. And with what result, Sir? Why, Sir, can they give tke> 
 value of $2.68 an acre to every acre of land of their own without giving us the> 
 same value for our land? If, Sir, we have given them $67,000,000 in 25,000,000 
 acres of land, they have given us $67,000,000 by the construction of the 
 road, making our land worth $2.68 alongside of their own ; and there is nothing but 
 cause for the most profound gratification on the part of the House, on account of the 
 position in which we stand in relation to this question. But, Sir, the hon. gentleman, 
 makes up his $127,000,000 by $25,000,000 in cash, $35,000,000 in road completed, and 
 $67,000,000 for land, which makes $127,000,000. "Well," he says, "I have figured it 
 out completely. I have made a close calculation. I know to the hundredth part of 
 a cent what the construction of this work is going to cost the Company ; and I 
 
 find " 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Hear, hear. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Well, when I say that, I am speaking advisedly. I am, show- 
 ing that the hon. gentleman makes a close and elaborate calculation, and I think that 
 hs would take into consideration the hundredth part of a cent if that hundredth part 
 of a cent would make a little larger his amount as paid by the Government to the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Well, Sir, take it in that way, and he says he 
 has discovered that this road, for which they are receiving $127,000,000, will only cost 
 $90,000,000 to construct it; the Company have only got to pay $90,000,000, and he has 
 taken note of the price at \vhich they are selling their stock, and gone minutely into 
 all their monetary calculations, and come to the conclusion that the road will cost 
 them, as I have said, $90,000,000. Well, Sir, that just gives him exactly a profit of 
 ,$37,000,000; but, Sir, there is another side to the story. How much does the horu
 
 14 
 
 gentleman suppose' that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company up to to-day 
 have paid for rolling stock ? How much does the hon. gentleman sup- 
 pose has been paid by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company of this 
 money which they have received ? I stated to the House, that the amount 
 which they have been paid by the Government, was $6,625,384, and of 
 that, Sir, they have paid for rolling stock, including duty, $4,351,374.84 ; for rolling 
 stock on the Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa and Occidental Railway, $450,800 ; and the 
 Canada Central Railway, $432,500 ; and for tools and machinery in their shops, in- 
 cluding duty, $244,651 ; while for steamers, their payments have been already $160,000. 
 Now, Sir, that makes a total of $5,647,325.90 paid for these objects. The hon. gentle- 
 man may ask me, what have we to do with the Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa and Occi- 
 dental Railway and the Canada Central? I tell him this and I was astonished that 
 the hon. gentleman should have endeavored to make a point against the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company for acquiring the Canada Central, and the Quebec, Montreal, 
 Ottawa and Occidental Railways why, Sir, it is impossible for any person to over-rate 
 the value to Canada, it is impossible to over-rate the value to the country of having 
 that great national line of railway start from the great commercial centre of this coun- 
 try and go to the Pacific Ocean. Why, Sir, it would have taken twenty years for the 
 people outside of very limited districts to get an idea where Callander was ; and when 
 you talked about the Canadian Pacific Railway going from Callander to Port Moody, 
 you were simply talking Greek to very illiterate people. The fact is, Sir, taking it as 
 regards traffic and as regards travel, it is impossible to over-estimate the value to every 
 man who has to do business between these two termini, the Pacific coast and Mon- 
 treal, of having one Company and one railway to deal with instead of two or three. I 
 say, Sir, that no step could have been taken by the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- 
 pany which was more eminently in the interest of this country, in the interest of. 
 Canada, than the acquisition of these two roads, for it gave a truly national and com- 
 plete character to this national work ; but, Sir, it was at no cost to the Government. 
 Every person knows that the Canada Central and the line between Ottawa and Mon- 
 treal, not only pays all the working expenses of these lines, but also the interest on 
 every dollar which they have cost; and they have done this for years ; so that instead 
 of being any charge, instead of being any burden on the resources of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, this was an absolute advantage from a pecuniary point of 
 view, and I am including the branches as well as the direct lines. I may here say, 
 Sir, that there is under contract and subject to early delivery, $758,670 worth more of 
 rolling stock, making with the Customs duty added $850,462.50; and this is exclusive 
 of the balance of the $850,000 required for steamers, which make no less than $6,497,- 
 788 in cash, which has been paid out by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, 
 almost the entire amount of money which they have received from the Government 
 of Canada for all they have done down to the present hour paid for rolling stock and 
 equipments for the purpose of carrying on the works upon this road. Now r , there is 
 another point and I may here mention that I am satisfied that the return which has 
 been laid by my hon. friend the Minister of Customs (Mr. Bowell) on the Table of the 
 House, has some mistake in it I have got the figures from the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way Company's office, where they charge, as hon. gentlemen know, every item, and 
 where a very minute account is kept of every class of expenditure ; and they state to 
 me, that they have paid in duty, in hard cash, in duties from the Montreal office, 
 $216,774, and from the Winnipeg office, $618,747, or, in all, $835,502.81, which have 
 been paid in duties into the Treasury of this country by the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company. Now, Sir, the hon. gentleman knows that if we had been carrying on 
 this work, not $1 of that money would have been paid into our Treasury, 
 and that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have not only given an enormous 
 impetus to our country by the rapid development and construction of the road, but 
 they have also put nearly $1,000,000 in cash into the Treasury of the country not $1 of 
 which would have been placed there if the Government had been constructing this 
 road, because, as the hon. gentleman knows, wo were able to bring into the country 
 free of duty and without contributing to the revenue on anything imported by the 
 Government and for the Government. I give that to the hon. gentleman as another 
 evidence of the position of this Company in relation to this question. Now, Sir, I have 
 no hesitation in venturing the statement that if the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- 
 pany proceed as they have proceeded in the North- West, if they go on with the 
 construction of branches as they have gone on, and as they must go on if they are 
 going to make all their land worth $2.68 an acre land which is now from 100 to 250 
 miles away from the railway and their road if they do this, then I say that the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company will have paid on that road from end to end and
 
 15 
 
 on the branches, which give the land that value, every dollar of the $25,000,000 for 
 the equipment of the line for the rolling stock, shops, tools, permanent stations, 
 elevators, harbors and wharves, and the various things with which they are obliged 
 to furnish themselves and so that $25,000,000 of the hon. gentleman's calculation. 
 will disappear, and of his $37,000,000 of profit, I thus knock off $25,000,000 without 
 ihe slightest hesitation for the rolling stock equipment they will be obliged to provide. 
 Now, the hon. gentleman may say : " You must not charge this twice ; you must not 
 first charge the road with the amount to build and equip it, and then charge the equip- 
 ment besides." I do not intend to do so ; but and I will draw the hon. gentleman's 
 attention to this what are the two ends to cost ? He himself answered that very 
 pertinent question. He put the first cost of the two ends of the Canadian Pacific Bail- 
 way at $77,000,000, so that the hon. gentleman will see that it will take $10,000,000 
 more than all they get for the land to build the two ends, according to his own calcu- 
 lations ; and, I think, Sir, under these circumstances, that the hon. gentleman's calcu- 
 lations of profits will be found very much at fault. But, suppose we put the construc- 
 tion of the Lake Superior section at $30,000 per mile without equipment ; that 
 would be $20,000,000, and 450 miles of the mountain section at $70,000 per mile, 
 without equipment, would be $31,500,000, or without equipment, a total of $51,500,000, 
 that they would have to pay. An equipment, as I have stated, costing $25,000,000, 
 would bring it up to $76,500,000 that they must pay, and deduct that from the 
 $90,000,000 and you have just $13,500,000, or $15,000 per mile left to apply to the 
 prairie section, and I think, Sir, that after the hon. gentleman's own estimate of 
 $42,000,000 for the prairie section, he will not consider that a very extravagant estimate. 
 Now, Sir, I will take the hon. gentleman in another way. I have shown the absurdity 
 and he must excuse me for using so strong a term I have shown the absurdity of 
 the calculation of $2.68 per acre, because I have shown that the mode in which we 
 arrive at it is by taking the total amount that they have received, irrespective of the 
 expenditure that they will have to make for surveying and they have that country 
 covered with explorers and surveyors in connection with the work I say irre- 
 spective of the cost to the Company, the hon. gentleman is only able to put 
 the amount of land that they have sold at $2.68, by taking in all that land 
 made valuable by the construction of the branches in Southern Manitoba, by 
 taking all the land that is valuable running out from Winnipeg to Moose 
 Jaw Creek; and, Sir, in passing I wish to correct an error into which hon. 
 gentlemen opposite fell as to the necessity of going into Southern Manitoba to get 
 land, because it could not be obtained in the twenty-four mile belt I may be mis- 
 taken it may be that it was that great organ of public opinion the Globe newspaper, 
 but it was stated that they are rejecting a great part of these lands along the line of 
 the railway. Why, Sir, they have not rejected an acre. I do not mean to say that 
 there may not be some spots found unfit for settlement, or about which question 
 might arise, but they have calculated all that was valuable of the odd sections which 
 were not already alienated,or against which some claim against the Crown had not been 
 established. I am happy to say that it is the settler who pour into that country, and 
 get land and acquire rights in connection with these lands, that has created any difficulty 
 with reference to their obtaining their quota of lands within the twenty-four mile belt. 
 But, if they can only obtain $2.68 within the twenty-four miles of the railway in 
 Southern Manitoba what can they hope to obtain for 17,000,000 of acres, a large portion 
 of which must be found between the parallel of the fifty-second and fifty-fourth north 
 latitude. Why, I say there is no railway to-day neither the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way or any other from within 100 to 250 miles of these lands. There is but one 
 way, and the hon. gentleman knows therefore, that to-day it would pay the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, looking to the long period that must elapse before it is pos- 
 1 sible to obtain the cash and utilize it for the sale of these lands it would pay them, 
 if they hoped to secure the lands for immediate or early settlement to take $1 an acre 
 for the remaining lands. And what would that make ? It would make, with the 
 amount they have received, and the amount they would receive, $36,000,000 instead 
 of $67,000,000, or knock off $31,000,000 of the profits of the hon. gentleman, which he 
 is able on paper to place in the pockets of the Canadian Pacific Railway. 1 believe, 
 Sir, that the hon. gentleman's services have been of very great value to that Company. 
 The discussion which took place between the hon. gentleman and myself gave a very 
 valuable impulse to the stocks of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company on a former 
 occasion, and I am sorry to say that it gave a corresponding drop to the Grand Trunk 
 stocks in the London money market ; because when it was found that the hon. gentle- 
 men on both sides of the House joined in treating as enemies of Canada anybody who 
 would geek to injure the prosperity of our great national work, it would be seen that
 
 16 
 
 the sudden tumble which had taken place in certain stocks was caused by parties. 
 . who, I believe, were standing behind the hon. gentleman and furnished him with the 
 calculations which he made. Now, Sir, I do not intend to say much more in relation 
 to that ; but I will turn my attention for a single moment to another very important 
 point which the hon. gentleman raised in connection with this discussion. He said 
 that these branches are going to be fraught with danger to this country, and why ? He 
 said they would go on and acquire these branches at their own cost,, and when it came 
 to the question of having their tolls reduced because of their profits being 10 per cent, 
 of the capital they have expended, we will not be able to reduce their rates for the 
 simple reason that the expenditure of operating these branches will be a burthen upon, 
 the main line, and they will require to take all the profits of the main tine to make 
 up the profits of the branches. Does not the hon. gentleman see that he is making 
 the strongest case possible for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company ? They cannot 
 construct a mile of any branch and they are doing it at their own cost, without every 
 mile they construct being of great money value to the Dominion of Canada, because 
 it is opening settlement and doubling and treblirg the value of lands that would 
 otherwise remain unsettled and unsold on the part of the Government ; and the hon. 
 gentleman must see, therefore, that it is a perfectly legitimate operation. He objects 
 again to their selling their bonds for 60, and he asks with well-feigned innocence for 
 I cannot believe for a single moment that the hon. gentleman was serious when he 
 was propounding such an extraordinary proposition to the House he asks whether 
 ive are to be charged par for these bonds when they sell at 60. Why, of course, 
 we are. Did the hon. gentleman ever hear of any portion of a railway being built by 
 bonds that the discount on the bonds of the company actually used for the construc- 
 tion of the railway was not charged to the capital ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. But they are not bonds. It is stock. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPBR. They are not bonds, and I can assure the hon. gentleman, 
 that he and every Canadian may thank God that they are not. I will tell him why. 
 If they were bonds, when this great national work was completed, it would be in the 
 position that the Union Pacific, the Central Pacific and the Northern Pacific, and those 
 interoceanic lines of railway were in. That having a bonded debt of an enormous 
 amount hanging upon it upon which interest must be paid, the interest must be found 
 by obtaining it from the traffic of the road, because it is a mandatory claim which 
 must be met, or the road will pass out of the lands of its possessors, whereas, if the 
 money is raised by the sale of stock, as it is in the present instance, the hon. gentle- 
 man will see that although they pay and justly pay interest on the stock during the 
 process of construction, the moment the construction is completed there is no man- 
 datory debt upon the property the property is not compelled to raise a single dollar 
 of interest, because all the interest that has to be paid is going into the pockets of the 
 owners of the work itself there is no mortgage of any kind. And what is the result? 
 The result is that in Canada we shall be able to point to a great inter-oceanic line of 
 Canadian Pacific Railway that can compete, as I said before, even between San Fran- 
 cisco and Chicago for the transport of the traffic of the Pacific coast down through a 
 large portion of country, for the reason that having issued no bonds, having only issued 
 stock, the road is entirely in an independent position in a position to deal by com- 
 petition with other roads in a manner that no road could deal if it had a heavy bonded 
 debt upon it if it had a mortgage upon it and had to raise the interest under any cir- 
 cumstances. The hon. gentleman says that he deplores the fact. He says wo led the 
 people to expect that capital was going to be brought into this country, and he says 
 there has been no capital brought in. Who prevented it coming in ? The enemies of 
 Canada, the enemies of the Canadian Pacific Railway prevented it, and what is the* 
 fact? The fact is that if we had not had the good fortune to have made this contract with 
 men of enormous personal wealth the scheme would have broken down, and would 
 have gone to ruin under the hostility it had to encounter in Canada and out of Canada. 
 We had the advantage of the fact that the contract was made with men who were 
 prepared to do not what hon. gentlemen opposite told us would be done when the con- 
 tract was made. They said a gigantic stock-jobbing operation will be performed ; 
 bonds and shares will be floated and these men will disappear without incurring the 
 slightest responsibility or having the slighest trouble in connection with that work. 
 B' i, where are we to-day? We are within a short period of the completion of the 
 \vork. They are pledged that the work shall be finished from end to end by Decem- 
 ber, 1886. It is nearly half completed now, and we stand in this position : That there 
 is not a man who went into the contract but stands there to-day not a man who went 
 into the contract who did not dip his hands deep into his own pockets to furnish the
 
 smeans to carry on this national enterprise to its present position. I do not understand 
 'the hon. gentleman when ho says, on the one hand, that he thinks it would be desir- 
 able to bring foreign capital into the country, and yet the moment the attempt is made 
 and stock is put on the money market of the world the hon. gentleman complains, 
 and he would have the Government interpose to forbid them to sell at less than par 
 because he fears it is going to be treated as capital, when we come to consider the 
 question of tolls on this road. I need not tell the hon. gentleman that it would be 
 better to build the road if they only got 50 cts. on the dollar for the stock, in the mode 
 in which it is proposed to build it, than to mortgage this great railway, and put it in 
 . a much less favorable position to compete with the other lines of inter-oceanic com- 
 munication. I do not think I need elaborate that subject. I only wanted to draw 
 .attention to the incongruous character of the hon. gentleman's remarks, and of the 
 analysis of this question which he gave to the House. I do not blame the hon. gentle- 
 man, standing as he did face to face with the fact that at the end of two years we 
 stood on the great vantage ground of being able to claim before the House and the 
 country, that there was not a single point upon which we had urged the adoption ot 
 the contract as to which our predictions have not been realized. I am not surprised 
 that he found it difficult to keep within the limit of fair and legitimate discussion of 
 this question, when even with his microscopic inspection he could not find a spot or a 
 ^speck on which he could found a just complaint. Now, Sir, I need not discuss very 
 fully the question of tariffs, although the hon. gentleman attached, as I attach, very 
 great importance to that point. But I might say at the outset that it would be utterly 
 impossible it could not bo expected no such thing has ever occurred anywhere as a 
 great line of railway rapidly constructed through an unpeopled country being operated 
 except upon a relatively high tariff. Every person knows that you cannot carry 
 freight at a similar rate in proportion to the increased volume you have to carry up 
 to the carrying capacity, and that where you have to carry it long distances through a 
 sparsely se'ttled country you must necessarily have a tariff which is tolerably high. 
 But hon. gentlemen will observe that this tariff is constructed as all such tariffs must 
 be constructed, upon what is called the parabolic curve, that is, it moves up rapidly at 
 first and then more slowly in the longer distances. You must have high charges for 
 .short distances in order to recoup yourself for the small charges that must apply to 
 the long distances. I might mention in this connection that I have received a severe 
 criticism of this tariff and it is the only severe criticism which I have received from 
 Mr. Brydges, as President of the Winnipeg Board of Trade. But I notice that his 
 complaint is confined to the first, second, third and fourth classes of goods that is, 
 .shelf goods, groceries, dry-goods, and things of that kind. But he is singularly silent 
 as regards the great features of a tariff of this kind constructed in the interests of the 
 country and that is the cost of carrying settlers' effects, agricultural implements, 
 fuel, lumber, grain and those other things upon which you mus-t make an exceptional- 
 ly low tariff, or it would be utterly impossible to people the remote sections of the 
 North-West. I do not hesitate to say that the tariff which is now on the Table of the 
 House cannot pay the Canadian Pacific Railway, and will not pay them for a con- 
 siderable number of years. It would be impossible, until a large number of people go 
 into that country, to construct a Tariff which would pay them. Because the climatic 
 -difficulties of the country are such that I have no hesitation in saying that the cost 
 of hauling per ton per mile would be four or five times as great in the North- West in 
 the present sparsely settled condition of the country and the small amount of traffic, 
 as it would be on the Grand Trunk Railway with the enormous amount of traffic which 
 I am glad to say it is carrying, and the milder climate in which it operates. The 
 House will excuse me if, instead of reading a comparison of the tariff, I will save my- 
 self and the time of the House by handing it to the reporter. 
 
 Hon. gentlemen will see by comparing the traffic tariff of the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way with the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe, the Northern Pacific Railway, the one 
 which runs through the same description of country, but at some distance from it, the 
 Union Pacific Railway, and the St. Paul, Minneapolis, and Manitoba Railway, that 
 the tariff of the Canadian Pacific Railway is greatly lower than that of any of these 
 other roads. It is said that they have raised the tariff beyond what the Government 
 were charging, and beyond the previous tariff in operation in Winnipeg. It is quite 
 true they have. But it is a mistake to say that that tariff was higher than the tariff 
 of the Grand Trunk Railway, or than the tariffs of the Railways in the 
 Central or Middle States. That tariff was an extremely low tariff, while 
 the distance between St. Vincent and Winnipeg is a comparatively 
 hort distance, with a large volume of business. But, as I was saying, the 
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 19 
 
 objection that Mr. Brydges, or the Board of Trade of which he is the 
 President, raised, is this : He says that the tariff operates against Winnipeg, that the 
 charge for carrying to Portage la Prairie, sixty-four miles beyond Winnipeg, is not 
 double what it is for carrying sixty-four miles to Winnipeg, and he seems to think 
 that that is an injustice to Winnipeg. Well, I may say at once that the Government 
 are anxious to do everything in their power to promote the prosperity of that great 
 and rapidly increasing commercial centre ; but they are not prepared to sacrific the 
 whole of the North- West to secure that end. If you made a double charge for taking 
 the same amount of goods to Portage la Prairie as to Winnipeg, you would not be 
 acting on the principle of lessening the charge per ton per mile in proportion to the 
 distance it is carried west. I say that to adopt a tariff that would sustain a railway at 
 all on a principle such as that urged by Mr. Brydges, would be utterly destructive of 
 the settlement of those remote portions of the country, to which the tariff as to those 
 great leading articles of grain, fuel, lumber, agricultural implements, settlers' effects, 
 and things of that kind must be a low one. In that respect, I have no hesitation in 
 saying that the tariff will be found to bean exceedingly moderate one, comparing favor- 
 ably with those of railways similiarly situated ; and the only objection raised against it, 
 is that it is not so constructed as to make Winnipeg the distributing point for the whole 
 of the North- West. Why should you do that ? Winnipeg has many advantages ; it 
 is destined to be a very large place ; it is the golden gate through which everything 
 for the North- West has to go, whether from the United States, or from Thunder Bay. 
 It has the advantage of possessing a great number of wealthy and enterprising men 
 who are able to import in such large quantities as necessarily to obtain reduced rates 
 for the business brought into that city. But, as I have shown before, it would be im- 
 possible to make those rates of the same character as the rates must be made for 
 traffic to a point four or five hundred miles west, at the base of the Rocky Mountains, 
 without adopting a tariff which would be either, on the one hand, utterly destructive 
 of the successful operation of the road, or, on the other hand, utterly destructive of 
 the settlement of the country. I will not elaborate that point further, because I be- 
 lieve that it would be found, on careful examination, that there is no great ground for 
 complaint. I may say that the Government, in order to do justice to the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, on the one hand, and to hold themselves free to act from 
 day to day in the interest of the settlers and the people who have to travel, on the 
 other, have fixed the tariff for one year only, so that, as the country settles up and a 
 greater volume of trade offers for the railway, we shall be able to deal with it as cir- 
 cumstances arise, and with the view to promote, to the utmost of our 
 power, the interests of the people who settle in the North-West. Now, 
 Sir, I was a little surprised to find that my hon. friend with that 
 shall I say party blindness, which occasionally affects him, I believe, in 
 common with other people who are subject to partisan influences, actually 
 ventured the astounding proposition that the advantages of the contract were all on 
 one side. He was referring to the statesmanlike expression of my hon. friend the 
 member for Westmoreland, who stated, and in terms that, I think, carried conviction 
 to the mind of every hon. gentleman who heard him, that he was glad that the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway Company had a good contract; that he was glad that it was 
 going to be advantageous to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. And why, Sir? 
 A more fatal mistake could not have been made by any Government than to have 
 made a hard contract, under which the Canadian Pacific Railway Company would 
 have come to grief a hard contract, which would compel them, when shut out of the 
 English money market by the influences to which I have referred, to turn back upon 
 themselves to furnish the means to carry on this enterprise until at some remote 
 period they could obtain some return from the lands that were placed at their dis- 
 posal. I say, no greater mistake could have been made in the interests of Canada, 
 than to have made a contract, the success of which would have been imperilled, or 
 upon which a doubt could have been thrown. But if any person wishes to know 
 whether or not this contract was all on one side, let him consider the single fact that 
 I have alluded to before, that is, that with all the influences the Company could bring 
 to bear, with the glowing prospectuses they could publish, with everything set forth 
 in the most highly colored terms, down to this hour they have been unable, in London, 
 the place where, above all others, if you can show that money is to be made in any 
 undertaking, any amount of money will be at your command there they have been 
 unable, with all these advantages, and with the millions of profits which the hon. 
 
 fjntleman's lively imagination conjured up, to sell the stock of the Canadian 
 acific Railway Company at more than 60 cts. on the dollar. And what more ? . Why, 
 Sir, the hon. gentleman has called attention to the fact I believe he has rather sug-
 
 20 
 
 gested to the Government that there has been a violation of the law that we should 1 
 endeavor to prevent the Company from obtaining this 60 cts. on the dollar, for he ha& 
 a doubt that under the law of this country they can pay 8J per cent of interest on the 
 money they have obtained, and pay it out of capital. But did it not suggest itself to 
 my hon. friend, when he was making a calculation of the interest they have to pay 
 for they have to pay 5 per cent, on par for every dollar they get during construction 
 did it not occur to the hon. gentleman what that would mean at 60 cts. in the dollar 
 for four or five years? And yet that hon. gentleman did not hesitate to say to this 
 House that the Company were going to have a profit of $37,000,000, regardless of those 
 considerations, which are of primary importance in a calculation with reference to- 
 monetary transations. I think, Mr. Speaker, if you will allow me, I will ask the per- 
 mission of the House to pause here before I enter upon another branch of the question,, 
 as I see that it is impossible for me to close my remarks before six o'clock. 
 It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left the Chair. 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 Sir CHAKLBS TUPPER. Mr. Speaker : Before resuming the discussion of this question 
 at the point at which I left off, I want to call the attention of the House for a single- 
 moment to an omission I made in quoting from the speech of the hon. the leader of 
 the Opposition when discussing the policy of the Government propounded to theHouse 
 on this important question on the 15th April, 1880. I have shown that the hon. gentle- 
 man, after a careful calculation and estimate of the amount it would cost to make a 
 first-class Canadian Pacific Railway, declared that it could not be placed at a smaller 
 amount than $120,000,000 ; but I find that I did some injustice to the hon. gentleman, 
 in leaving it at that point, because by reference to that speech, which I now hold in 
 my hand, I find the hon. gentleman added $24,500,000 to that sum as the cost to the 
 country on the interest that would require to be paid during the construction of the- 
 work. I will read his words. He said : 
 
 "According to the old system of construction that Central Section would cost, including the other 
 items I have mentioned, altogether over $42,500,000, leaving out entirely both ends. What are the ends 
 to cost? $45,000,000 is, as I have stated, the cost from Edmonton to Burrard Inlet on the West, and 
 from Fort William to Nipissing on the east, the hon. member for Lambton estimates at a length of 
 about 650 miles and a cost of $32,500,000. Thus the ends make up together $77,000,000, the centre and 
 the past expenditure $42,500,000, making a total of $120,000,000, and that wholly exclusive of the 
 legitimate and necessary charge, which must be added in all cases, the charge for interest during con- 
 struction. In all enterprises of this description every estimate with reference to expenditure includes 
 a provision for interest on capital provided daring construction, before the enterprise becomes produc- 
 tive, and this item is to be considered in the reckoning. The House will be surprised to learn that on 
 our expenditure up to this time, and rating the interest at 4 per cent, only, as the money was raised 
 partly on guarantee, that interest up to 30th June next will exceed $1,250,000- Taking the estimate of 
 ten days ago, if $60,000,000 are expended in the next ten years, there will be a total of over $24,500,000 for 
 interest, calculating interest on future loans at 5 per cent., the lowest rate, as I believe, at which the 
 money can be raised." 
 
 Now, my hon. friend will admit that the Canadian Pacific Railway Committee cannot 
 raise money at 5 per cent interest, and consequently he will require to add to his 
 $120,000,000 $24,500,0' 0, as the cost of the road, plus the increased interest which the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company will have to pay over and above the rate of 5 
 per cent, which my hon. friend has fixed. I am glad that the opportunity has oc- 
 curred of drawing attention to that, because I think the hon. . gentleman's statement 
 would not be quite complete without it. And I may say, Sir, in speaking of capital 
 on which the Canadian Pacific Railway Company are entitled to obtain 10 per cent, 
 under the law on our Statute-book, and under the contract we have made with them 
 because the hon. gentleman will remember that the Consolidated Railway Act was 
 amended, and the contract made to embrace the amendment there is a provision 
 which declared that the capital of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company should be 
 held to be the amount of money which the Company was obliged to put into the work, 
 plus the subsidies received from the Government 
 
 Mr. BLAKB. Less the subsidies. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Less the subsidies received from Government So that 
 the moment that the Company obtain 10 per cent, on their capital, on the 
 amount they had put into the work, less the subsides they had received from 
 the Government, these tolls are subject to revision. The hon. gentleman will 
 see, therefore, as I stated before, that whatever money the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company are obliged to raise upon the sale of bonds, in order to honestly implement 
 the amount received from the Government of Canada for the construction of 
 the work, whatever discount there is on that amount will fairly be chargeable under 
 the head of capital It is not to be supposed that any railway company will sell:
 
 21 
 
 their bonds for any smaller amount, at any lower rate than the very highest 
 rate they can obtain in the market, and having obtained on the best terms 
 possible the amount of money absolutely necessary to implement, whatever that may 
 be, the subsidies furnished by the Government, that will be the capital on which they 
 will be en titled to receive 10 per cent, profit before the Government can interpose and 
 forcibly reduce or require a reduction of the tolls on the road. Now, Sir, I have re- 
 ferred to a good many of the objections which the hon. gentleman made in the course 
 of the two speeches which he delivered and the criticisms that he offered upon this 
 subject. The hon. gentleman, as I said before, objected to their eastern engagements, 
 and thought it was quite possible they had gone too far, and the hon. gentleman 
 seemed to think that they had behaved somewhat imprudently. Well, Sir, from my 
 knowledge of those gentlemen up to the present time, I had supposed they were tol- 
 erably well qualified to take care of their own interests. During my acquaintance 
 with them, I have found them not at all wanting in a knowledge of what the inter- 
 ests of the Company required-, or in any amount of vigor in pressing those interests ; 
 and I think he will find that, in the eastern engagements they have made, they have 
 consulted the interests of Canada as well as their own by having an extension of their 
 line from Callander to Montreal. I have already stated that not a dollar of the money 
 of the country has been required to be used in connection with these engagements, 
 because those sections of the line yielded a profit over and above the interest required 
 to meet the entire expenditure which the Company had to make. The hon. gentle- 
 man's mind may, therefore, be relieved upon that point. Then the hon. gentleman 
 refers to the subject of monopolies. He says "we declared the provisions as to mono- 
 poly were unnecessary in order to procure the construction of the work, and were 
 calculated to retard the settlement and impair the prosperity of that country, and to 
 create great dissatisfaction and discontent within its bounds." I want to know where 
 the hon. gentleman gets the impression that this road could have been constructed at 
 all without the monopoly to which he refers. I want to know where the hon. gen- 
 tleman obtains the information that it would be possible for any person or any body 
 of capitalists, on the security offered, to obtain the means that are required to con- 
 struct this road unless this Parliament had given them all the advantages that that 
 contract provides. The hon. gentleman has the fact before him of the difficulty of 
 floating the stock of the Company, noUyithstanding all the advantages which the 
 contract provided. I deny altogether, Sir, that if the terms given by the Government 
 of Canada to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company had been impaired in the 
 slightest degree, there would have been the least chance of the successful carrying out 
 of that great project. The hon. gentleman says it has been held that the Company 
 was not merely entitled to, but could compel the Government of the day to exercise 
 its power of disallowance. He says : "I myself have never been able to understand 
 it being held that the Company was not merely entitled to, but could compel the Gov- 
 ernment of the day to exercise its power of disallowance, to veto charters for local 
 railways within the borders of the Province of Manitoba, contrary to the bargain 
 with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I say that that construction of the 
 bargain is not merely contrary to what we were told the terms were to be, but con- 
 trary certainly to what we were told its terms were when the bargain was laid before 
 us by the Minister of Railways." Now, Sir, I ask my hon. friend to produce the state- 
 ment made by the Minister of Railways. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I said we were told that when the bargain was before us, but I did 
 not say by the Minister of Railways. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Then the Minister of Railways did not tell it ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. But the hon. First Minister did. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER. All I can say is that as the humble mouthpiece of the Gov- 
 ernment, I undertook to state the terms of the contract, and the position under which 
 the Government and the country under that contract stood in relation to the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company, and the hon. gentleman knows that no man in the House can 
 charge me with ever having receded in the slightest degree from the position I have 
 ever taken upon that subject. Sir, I may recall to the hon. gentleman the fact that 
 this has not been the policy of one Government, but the policy of all Governments. 
 The poliry of the Government of which he was a member was just as strongly pro- 
 nounced upon that question of the disallowance of local charters which were calculated 
 to interfere with the traffic of the Canadian Pacific Railway, as the policy of the present 
 Government has been. The hon. gentleman knows that during the term of office of 
 the late Government, a charter was given, subject to its being brought into operation 
 by proclamation, for the construction of a line of railway from Winnipeg, on the west
 
 22 
 
 side of the Eed River to the United States boundary. The hon. gentleman knows, too, 
 that my hon. predecessor, then Premier of the country, was applied to by Mr. George 
 Stephen, to issue a proclamation making that charter* law. What did he say? He 
 refused to issue the proclamation. He vetoed the Bill. That is the position the hon. 
 gentleman took. And why did he take it ? He took it upon the plain and palpable 
 ground that the Government of the country had undertaken the construction of the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway, and they would not permit competing lines from the United 
 States of America, or anywhere else, to come into competition with that undertaking. 
 That is the position the hon. gentleman took. I say he took a sound and statesman- 
 like position, a position which vigorously as he was pressed by his then opponents in 
 Parliament, vigorously as the hon. gentle'man's policy was being criticised by the 
 Opposition of the day no man in this House would have been so recreant to what 
 we all knew to be the true interests of this country as to assail. But what more ? 
 Applications were made by companies who came down to Government and Parlia- 
 ment for the passage of Bills that would secure competition between the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway and those companies. What did we do, Sir ? I went down, as Minis- 
 ter of Railways, to the Railway Committee, composed of 100 of the leading members 
 on both sides of the House, and declared in most positive terms that the policy of this 
 Government was to steadily refuse any company permission to build a line of railway 
 in competition with the Canadian Pacific Railway or its branches. That was the posi- 
 tion we took, and I say it unhesitatingly, and in the presence of hon. gentlemen 
 opposite, that that policy met with the universal assent of the Railway Committee, of 
 hon. gentlemen opposite, as well as ourselves. I say that the policy, neither in the 
 Railway Committee room, nor in this House, was challenged ; it was accepted as a sound 
 unquestionable policy in the interest of the country. Then parties came down in the 
 following Session, and appealed to the Government to allow rival lines to be built in 
 the Province of Manitoba, running to the American boundary, and they were again 
 refused. So I say there was no person in this House, or out of it, that did not know 
 that the policy of the Government was never more pronounced or declared than it was 
 upon that question of the prevention of the construction of any railway in Manitoba 
 that was going to interfere with the Canadian Pacific Railway. Now, what was the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway in those days ? The Government had not undertaken to 
 carry a trunk line of railway through Canada, nearly 650 miles along the north shore 
 of Lake Superior, where not a single inhabitant was to be found from the time you 
 left Red Rock at Nipigon, until you came down to Callander. No Government was 
 prepared to undertake the construction of the work. No Government this Govern- 
 ment had not proposed at that day to do it. And notwithstanding that was 
 the state of things, we refused to allow competition with the Pembina Branch 
 of the Canadian Pacific Railway running to the boundary of the United States. 
 Now, there is not a fair-minded man in Canada, a man who is not blinded 
 by party feeling, who will say that when the Company are bound not only to do all 
 we were doing, when we refused competition, but to supplement that by building 650 
 miles through the desert between Callander and Thunder Bay we were not & fortiori 
 toound to carry out the same policy regarding the Company that we adopted for the 
 protection of the Government irrespective of any contract at all. It is only necessary 
 to apply the commonest principles of justice to this question to be convinced of that, 
 and that is what I have invariably done in this House and out of it in discussing this 
 question. I say the interests of this country demand that the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way should be made a success, and the man who does any act by which that success is 
 imperilled takes a course which is hostile to the interests of Canada. But somebody 
 may ask what about the interests of Manitoba ? Are interests of Manitoba and the 
 North- West to be sacrificed to the policy of Canada ? I say, if it is necessary yes. I 
 met a deputation when visiting that country three years ago at Emerson, who put 
 this subject before me, and I told them then and there that the Government of 
 Canada made it its first consideration to do everything it could do to develop the great 
 North- West Territory ; then we were asking the people of the older Provinces to take 
 hold of this gigantic work to push it forward and to develop and build up that country. 
 And I said, under the circumstances, anxious as we are to do everything that would 
 promote your interests, we would feel that we were traitors to the North- West, to 
 Manitoba and the rest of Canada, if we were to allow ourselves to be swerved from 
 that policy which we have declared hitherto honestly and plainly to be absolutely 
 vital to the success of the Canadian Pacific Railway. On this ground I ask the ap- 
 proval of this policy, not only by all parts of the Dominion, but I ask Manitoba and 
 the North- West to concur in it as a part of that railway policy which has vitalized 
 and developed that country with such wonderful rapidity and energy. That is my
 
 23 
 
 answer to the hon. gentleman in relation to that. He says there is a great deal of 
 dissatisfaction in this country on that subject. Who stirred it up, Sir ? Who are 
 the men, where is the press, where are the people that hounded the Government of 
 this country, and assailed it day by day, and tried to influence the people of the 
 North- West to believe that they were bejng prejudiced and injured by the policy of 
 this Government ? The same who when on this side of the House had propounded 
 and acted upon the same policy as the only just and reasonable policy they could 
 offer in relation to the interests of the whole of this country. So much, Sir, for disal- 
 lowance. I think I have noticed and done justice to all the leading positions taken 
 by the hon. gentleman in the speeches which he delivered. I now will refer, for a 
 few moments, to the last and most important statement that he made, and that was 
 the point at which I had arrived when the House rose before Recess. I said that 
 when the hon. member for Westmoreland propounded the broad, statesmanlike policy 
 that was in the interests of Canada that the Canadian Pacific Railway should have 
 a good bargian, he propounded a sentiment that will be echoed and reechoed from 
 one end of this country to the other as a sound and judicious sentiment. I believe- 
 they have a good bargain. I do not hesitate to say so, and I trust they will make 
 great fortunes out of their venture in undertaking the construction of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway an enterprise beset with difficulties as it is ; a gigantic enterprise, 
 from undertaking which both Governments in this country shrank ; a work so- 
 gigantic that alarm was created in the minds of both the great parties in this country 
 at the idea of taking it up as a Government work, with all the resources of the Gov- 
 ernment of the country, with the means of bringing everything free into the country, 
 with every facility and advantage, with the means of getting any amount of money we 
 wanted at 4 per cent. Notwithstanding all these advantages, both the great parties 
 shrank from the contemplation of the Government of Canada constructing this gigan- 
 tic road for 3,000 miles through a comparatively unpeopled country. It was a source 
 of great relief to the people of this country when the Government were able to come 
 down and lay upon the Table of the House a contract which provided for the construc- 
 tion of that work upon terms more favorable than had ever been propounded by any 
 member of this House on either side, and which were eminently advantageous to the 
 people of this country. I say that at this moment, if the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company are successful, they owe it to the undivided energy with which, heart and 
 soul, all the leading members of that corporation have thrown themselves into this 
 work and made it the business of their lives. If this enterprise is made a success, 
 and it has been trembling in the balance more than once, notwithstanding all their 
 resources, it is because the Government were fortunate enough, not only to get men of 
 vast experience and great resources, practically acquainted with aH the work they had 
 to do, but men who themselves possessed great fortunes upon which they could fall 
 back, to implement any want of funds, while they were endeavoring to obtain the ne- 
 cessary means from that which had been an unpeopled desert the North- West 
 Under these circumstances, I rejoice to believe that they have met, and will meet, 
 with great success, and ultimately obtain a valuable property which can be worked, 
 not only in their interests, but in the interests of the people of this country. Having 
 said that much, I say that I believe my hon. friend never made a greater mistake as a 
 stateman, and I believe that hon. gentlemen opposite never in the course of their lives 
 committed themselves to an unsounder policy, looking at the interests of their party, 
 than their hostility to this great work. They could not afford to take the position 
 they have taken. Their past record year after year ; their long struggles in connec- 
 tion with this question ; their statements again and again to which they were com- 
 mitted in this House in relation to the enterprise, in relation to the value of the land, 
 the character of the territory that had to be pierced, and the enormous responsibility 
 that was going to be thrown upon whoever constructed the Canadian Pacific Railway, 
 by its operation I say that in view of these public statements and their past record 
 a record they will find to be an indelible record they could not afford to take the 
 position of hostility they have taken in relation to this great work. I say if they were 
 capable of learning anything, if anything could make an impression on them, if hon. 
 gentlemen could be taught anything by experience, the experience of the past two' 
 years ought to have convinced them of the fatal mistake they had made, and induced 
 them to abandon that line as soon as possible. Looking to the interets of the great 
 Conservative party in this country, I want to see them pursue to the bitter end the 
 policy they are now pursuing. Looking, I say, to the interests of the great Conserva- 
 tive party, I want these hon. gentlemen on this question, just as they are on the 
 National Policy, to remain in clear and well defined antagonism with the great mass 
 of public sentiment in this country. Sir, I speak of what I know when I say for I
 
 24 
 
 have not spent twenty-eight years of continuous public life, and in the study of public 
 questions, and the public mind, without being able to form some judgment of the 
 public sentiment of this country I say there never was any question before the 
 people of Canada upon which the overwhelming masses of the people of all parties and 
 of all classes had their minds more completely and thoroughly made up than on the 
 question of this Canadian Pacific Railway contract. In the debate on the 
 Address my hon. friend declared, in reviewing the statesmanlike utterances of 
 my hon. friend from Westmoreland, that the advantages were all on one 
 side. Why, Sir, is it possible that the hon. gentleman was candid? Is it possible that 
 anything can so blind his eyes, so deafen his ears, so obtund every sense by which a 
 gentleman learns what is transpiring around him, as to induce the hon. gentleman to 
 venture such a statement ? Let mo ask him what has been the effect of this measure 
 upon the great vital question of population for Canada ? The hon. gentleman knows 
 that there is 110 question upon which our rapid progress and continued prosperity so 
 entirely depend as the means by which we shall be able rapidly to fill up that great 
 North- West and bring population into all sections of this country. When my hon. 
 friend the Minister of Agriculture brought down his estimate for immigration, the 
 lion, gentleman said : "Why, what does this mean? We thought we were to be re- 
 lieved of ail this ; we thought the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were going to 
 spend aX the money and bring the immigration into the country, and that we were 
 going to fold our arms." Sir, nobody ever thought anything of the kind. I admit 
 that my lion, friend behind me has exhibited wonderfui industry, wonderful energy 
 and wonderful skill in attracting immigration to Canada, and I say that all his efforts 
 would have been comparatively futile but for the construction of the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway. I say that no one factor has produced the influence upon our country in 
 that great, that vital question of immigration that the construction of this Canadian 
 Pacific Railway has produced. I say the very fact that you have capitalists every- 
 where, capitalists in London, capitalists in France, capitalists in Germany, capital- 
 ists in New York, capitalists in Amsterdam, all interested in this great national work 
 of Canada, and the fact that through every avenue that will reach the public mind of 
 Europe from end to end, hundreds of thousands of documents are sent out that no 
 Minister of Agriculture could ever have sent out without the aid of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company I say that all these facts are entirely ignored by the hon. 
 gentleman. And. what d*o these documents show ? They have shown the world, they 
 have shown the people of the over-populated portions of Europe the fact that they will 
 not have to remain pent up in Winnipeg, unable to get land for settlement, but that a 
 rapidly constructed railway will carry them the day after they reach Winnipeg, 500 
 or GOO miles out through the prairie country where they can choose land to the right 
 and to the left upon which to locate and build up their own fortunes. Now, Sir, what 
 do our statistics show ? The hon. gentleman has only to look at the report of my hon. 
 friend to find that the immigration went up from 40,000, in 1878, to 193,000 in 1882. 
 Of these there came by the St. Lawrence, in 1878, 10,295, and, in 1882, 44,850 settlers. 
 In 1878, 29,808 settlers came to the country ; and in 1882, no less than 112,458. In 
 1882 no less than 70,532 settlers went to Manitoba and the North- West, and no less 
 than 13,325 were from the United States. Now, what do these figures show? Why, 
 Sir, every person knows that the great disadvantage under which Canada has labored 
 in times gone by was that the United States of America had a North- West to attract 
 immigration, while Canada had none. Every person who has studied this question 
 knows that there is nothing more true than that " Westward the star of Empire wends 
 its way." Every person knows that the tendency is to go West. Look at the Eastern 
 States of the United States, and what do you find ? Look at their population to-day 
 compared with what it was long ago, and you find it comparatively stationary be- 
 cause of that constant drifting to the west that takes place on this American 
 Continent. The same took place in Canada. The tendency was to go 
 West and as Canada had no West they went to the United States. How is 
 it now ? Why, Sir, not only is the current westward to the United States stopped, 
 but it is reversed and now flowing back over the 49th parallel of latitude are the peo- 
 ple that went out of our country into the West, and those who have always lived in 
 the United States until some 13,000 of them during last year came over. And I say 
 that if the railway lias done nothing else, if this development of our North- West had 
 done nothing else than to turn this current of immigration into our own country, and 
 invite people from across the boundary into our North- West, if it had done nothing 
 -else it would have accomplished all that would bo necessary to commend it to the 
 judgment and the regard of any patriotic Canadian. Deduct the floating population 
 out of the whole and you have of remaining settlers in the North- West, 58,751. But,
 
 25 
 
 Sir, that is not all. I will read, as the authority is better than any statement I can 
 make and I am sure the House will permit me to do so I will read one of the most 
 interesting extracts that ever graced the report of an hon. Minister of Agriculture 
 since Canada was a country : 
 
 " It thus appears that the value in money and property ascertained as brought by the immigrants 
 into the country in 1882 was $3,171 501.59, besides a very lurjre amount unascertained taken into Mani- 
 toba, and which it is impossible to approximate. In addition, there were the very considerable values 
 in tools, implements and effects. 
 
 "The amount of money taken to Manitoba by intending settlers during 1882 was very considerable. 
 It was stated by a hanker that $8,000-000 were on deposit in Winnipeg, which sum had been taken in 
 for investment before the middle of the year- Still further capital no doubt, was brought in afterthat 
 date, of which no record is available. Part of this was Irom the older Provinces, but having in view the 
 fact the capitalists from the Eastern Provinces, intending to invest in Manitoba, or the North-West Ter- 
 ritory, would probably leave their deposits in their own banks, for draft upon them as required, a pro- 
 portion of three-fourths of the above amount of $8,' 00,000, may be placed to the credit of newly arrived 
 immigrants ; and this cash capital without taking into account the monies deposited after the date above 
 referred to, would makethetotal value of cash' goods and effects brought in by immigrants $10,000,000 in. 
 round numbers, in 1882. 
 
 Now, Sir, I have given you the figures in relation to the past year, and I draw atten- 
 tion to the fact that a cablegram appeared in the Globe newspaper from its London 
 correspondent announcing that three steamships sailing that day conveyed 3,000 per- 
 sons from Liverpool to the Dominion of Canada, and declaring that that number was 
 double that which ever embarked on any previous day in the history of the country. 
 I need not add a word to a statement of that kind to show the enormous value to this 
 country of the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which, as I have said, 
 has been one of the chief factors in changing the position of our country and ensuring 
 that we may rely on a steadily increasing tide of immigration, because the initial dif- 
 ficulty in immigration is the great difficulty ; provided you have, as I am proud to say 
 we have, the me st inviting country for settlers in the world. All you want is the means 
 of getting people into the country, from which they can communicate to their friends 
 the prosperity that has attended them, and you will draw ultimately thousands, tens 
 of thousands and hundreds of thousands after them. Our advance will thus be in a. 
 progressive ratio, and we will have the proud satisfaction of knowing that this garden, 
 of the world will be at no distant day filled with energetic and enterprising settlers 
 who will make that hitherto neglected wilderness blossom as the rose. Now I may, 
 perhaps, be permitted, with a little personal pride, to allude to the resolutions which 
 I had the honor to submit, as representing the views of the Government in 1879. I do 
 not intend to read the whole of them, but I will read three, as follows : 
 
 "3. Eesolved, That reports from the Mother Country set forth an unprecedented state of enforced 
 idleness of the working classes, and the possibility of a scheme of relief on a large scale being found in- 
 dispensible to alleviate destitution. 
 
 "4. Resolved, That the construction of the Pacific Railway would afford immediate employment to 
 numbers of workmen, and would open up vast tracts of fertile land for occupation, and thus would 
 form a ready outlet for the over-populated districts of Great Britain and other European countries- 
 
 "5. Resolved, That it is obvious that it wpuld be of general advantage to find an outlet for the 
 abundant population of the Mother Country within the Empire, and thus build up flourishing Colonies 
 on British soil, instead of directing a stream of immigration from England to foreign countries." 
 
 I need not remind the House that the great difficulty under which Canada labored 
 was that the United States presented such overwheming attractions, previous to our 
 having a North-West of our own, that we were unable to compete with them in rela- 
 tion to immigration. But I will draw attention to the fact that while hon. gentlemen 
 opposite told the people it would be an idle dream for the Government to suppose they 
 could enlist the Government of England in support of our policy, I have the proud 
 satisfaction of knowing that to-day one of the questions uppermost in the minds of 
 British statesmen and British Ministers who to-day control the destinies of the em- 
 pire, is this question, and it is held that a sounder policy could not be adopted to meet 
 the difficulties of the over-populated districts of the Mother Country, whether in 
 England, Ireland or Scotland, and there are largely over-populated districts in all of 
 them, than that of immigration. Lord Derby, the able Minister whc> now presides, 
 over our colonial destinies, publicly declared that England could not appropriate* 
 millions of its treasure to better use than to send to Canada assisted emigrants from 
 the over-populated districts of Great Britain ; and at last, through the various chan- 
 nels and means, means which never could have been adopted but for the attractions, 
 we are able to offer in connection with the construction of the Canadian Pacific Kail- 
 way, the people of England and the press are being brought to understand that them 
 is no source to which they can look with more confidence as a relief from their diffi- 
 culty of over population, than the means of using the money at the disposal of the 
 Imperial Government to place those who are now struggling with povert}' and 
 wretchedness in the heart of the empire, in the great Canadian North-West where, by 
 industry and energy and by a tithe of the labor which now refuses to give them tha-
 
 26 
 
 common necessaries of life, they may rapidly become not only successful settlers, not 
 only men who are going to add to the wealth of the country, but a source of strength 
 to the empire instead of a source of the greatest possible weakness. And yet with all 
 those facts before him the hon. leader of the Opposition ventured the statement that 
 all the advantages of the Canadian Pacific Railway contract are on one side. Let him 
 turn to Winnipeg for a few moments. Let him look at Winnipeg as it was, and as it 
 is before it was vitalized by the vigorous manner in which this Government under- 
 took the work of pushing forward the railway. The hon. gentleman has only to turn 
 to the figures to find the most astounding facts that are presented in any part of the 
 continent. Where, I ask, even in the Western States of the Union, can the hon. 
 gentleman show me a single spot, notwithstanding all the advantages they possess, 
 and all the connections they have made by means of immigrants in the United States 
 and their friends in the old countries, which presents the evidences of rapid progress 
 and prosperity that Winnipeg presents to-day ? Where is there a spot on this con- 
 tinent that has surged ahead with the rapidity, strength and energy seen in that city 
 which is soon to become, which has already become, one of the great commercial 
 centres of this country ? The population in 1871 was 500, in 1881 it had risen to 9,000, 
 and that was largely after 1878, as the hon. gentleman knows. But from 1881, the first 
 year of the operations of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the population went 
 up from 9,000 to no less than 25,000 in a single year. The value of assessed property 
 increased from $9,000,000 in 1881, to $30,000,000 in 1882. What evidence can be more 
 conclusive of the influence and success of that policy than is to be found in the figures 
 to which I have directed attention. The imports f;4m Great Britain and foreign 
 countries in 1881 were $2,837,431 ; in 1882 they had risen to $8,222,923, being an in- 
 crease of $5,395,497. But the amount of increase with our own country is a question 
 in which the people of the older Provinces have a lively interest. In addition to the 
 $5,000,000 increase of imports from Great Britain and foreign countries, the imports 
 from the older Provinces of Canada reached $12,000,000, making the imports for the 
 little town of Winnipeg, as it was but yesterday, no less than $20,000,000 in a single 
 year. Let us now turn to Customs duty, and what do we find ? I need not tell the 
 House the material value of every immigrant; that all Canada requires in order to 
 secure material progress, and to rapidly wipe out the debt of the country and have a 
 degree of prosperity which will compare with that of any country in the world, is that 
 peoole shall be brought into the country and furnished with the means of obtaining 
 profitable employment. The taxes paid into the revenue of the country by every 
 immigrant who comes in, makes them an absolute and certain source of wealth. What 
 do the Customs returns show ? The duties collected in 1879 were $279,255 ; in 1881, 
 $651,892 ; in 1882, $1,587,327, or an increase for 1882 over 1881 of $935,435, showing nearly 
 $1,000,000 of an increase; and yet my hon. friend hesitates to accept $1,500,000 of Credit 
 Valley Railway bonds as security for $1,000,000 to enable the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way Company to prosecute more vigorously the great work in which they are engaged. 
 Not only have we an increase of about $1,000,000 here in consequence of that contract, 
 but we have at the same time nearly $1,000,000 absolutely paid into the Treasury of 
 this country by themselves, or as nearly so as possible, in connection with their own 
 works, and $5,000,000 were expended in buildings in 1882. The deposits in the 
 Government Savings Banks increased $707,922 in 1882 over 1881, and yet the hon. 
 gentleman can find no evidence of any benefit accruing to Canada from the contract 
 for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Does he believe, 
 does any hon. gentleman in the House believe that the history of our country would 
 furnish figures like these to evidence to the world the gigantic strides which we are 
 making in progress and prosperity, if it had not Been for the contract made with the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I say, Sir, under these circumstances, that we 
 may point to that country, that we may point to the development of Winnipeg in this 
 relation. Hore, Sir, I want to ask the permission of the House to read an extract 
 from a speech made the other day by Mr. DuncanMacarthur. Mr. DuncanMacarthur 
 is a gentleman ; a practical, clear-headed, able man, who has been engaged^ for ten 
 years in the city of Winnipeg as manager of the Merchants Bank, a position from 
 which he has recently retired. On a recent occasion that gentleman used the follow- 
 ing language : 
 
 * When 1 came to Winnipeg upwards of ton years ago. it was a remote and insignificant village 500 
 miles north of any considerable town in the United States, and containing a population of about 
 900 souls. It was regarded both by Americans and Canadians as the ultima thule of.settleinent and of 
 civilization." 
 
 He then went on to describe what he had seen during those ten years, but I will not 
 detain th&' .House, except to read what he says with reference to the future; and I 
 read it, Sir, not as the language of a heated partisan, not as the language of any person
 
 27 
 
 who has anything to gain by advancing the political interests of one party or another, 
 but as the dear deductions of a logical and able naind, in a better position carefully to- 
 study the past, and to estimate the future progress of that country, than perhaps 
 almost any gentleman who is to be found in its borders. What does he say : 
 
 " And, now, gentlemen, a few words about the future of Manitoba and the North-West. It is diffi- 
 cult to believe that the North-West Territory should have remained, so far as people generally were 
 concerned, a terra incognito until the last twelve or fifteen years. Yet such is actually the case, and 
 had it not been for the consolidated impulse that accompanied and followed the Confederation of the 
 British North American Provinces, it might have remained a terra incognito this day. Our statesmen 
 never dreamt, during the earlier stages of their efforts, to bring about Confederation, that there was an 
 unborn and greater Dominion in the North-West, stretching from Lake Superior to the Rocky Moun- 
 tains on the one hand and from the international boundary to the Arctic Sea on the other, containing 
 agricultural, manufacturing and mining resources sufficient to supply the wants of one hundred millions 
 of human beings a territory worth more in point of material value than all the other Provinces put to- 
 gether. Gentlemen, our country is so vast and its resources are so rich and varied, that it is impossible 
 to mark the extent of the former or to estimate the value of the latter : and very few even of those who 
 have lived longest and who have travelled most in the interior of the country possess an adequate idea 
 of the value of Canada's heritage in the North-West. Confining our view of it to that portion that is 
 suitable for agricultural purposes, we can see, standing as we do on the eastern confines of the fertile 
 belt, an immense tract of country extending from Winnipeg to the Rocky Mountains on the one hand, 
 and from Winnipeg to the fertile valleys of the Peace River country on the other hand, a tract of coun- 
 try which contains hundreds of millions of acres suitable for farming and grazing purposes, and which is 
 sufficient to afford homes, an independence and comfort to the surplus population of Europe for cen- 
 turies to come ; and owing to the exigBncies arising from too large populations in many European coun- 
 tries, our North-West is destined to be speedily peopled. Our soil, which is easy of cultivation, and is 
 of unsurpassed fertility, is obtained free by actual settlers, and owing to it? level surface, machinery, 
 which so largely aids the efforts of the farmer in a prairie country, can be employed with advantage in 
 every agricultural operation. The country is, moreover, accessible to Europe, and apart altogether from 
 the special immigration which has been induced of late years to come here from the other Provinces 
 and Irom Great Britain, we may expect that the great wave of immigration from Northern Europe, 
 which during the last twenty years has been slowly but surely filling up Minnesota, Dakota, and other 
 United States Territories, will reach us and conduce greatly to the rapid settlement of the country. 
 Moreover, our climate is healthy and bracing and is peculiarly well adapted to inspire mental and phy- 
 sical vigor into our people. (Applause-) It requires no ardent imagination to picture the change 
 which awaits the North-West during the next twenty years. Long before that time the face of th <; 
 country will be covered with a network of railways. Our prairies that now appear so bleak andbound- 
 less, will be cultivated and planted, and dotted over with the comfortable homes of an intelligent, pros- 
 perous and a contented people. We shall be able to grow and export a sufficient quantity of grain to 
 justify us in calling our country the granary of the world. Many cities and towns of great importance 
 will spring up, and Winnipeg will not only retain its present position and prestige, but will in all pro- 
 bability be the largest and most important city in Canada. Those who know little or nothing about the 
 North-West and its resources may think these statements are either gross exaggerations or the utter- 
 ance of a sanguine and partial individual, but the time is not far distant when this great country will be 
 sufficiently well known to receive the recognition to which it is entitled. With such a future before us- 
 we may well work and hope and wait. Unlike many of the older nations of the world, who are limited 
 by space, fettered by poverty, and crushed by the exactions of injustice and tyranny (whose greatness 
 and opportunities are in the past), we stand on the threshold of a new land of promise a land which con- 
 stitutes one of the fairest portions of the new world a land on which millions of our race are yet des- 
 tined to act out the great drama of life, and which is to witness new and triumphal marches in litera- 
 ture) science and art, and in many other forms of national progress and development." 
 
 I may say, Sir, that no gentleman can read that statement, that clear, calm, dispas- 
 sionate statement, which in every line of it carries conviction to the mind of every 
 intelligent man, without coming to the conclusion, that the fears and anxieties of hon. 
 gentlemen opposite had been in the past totally without foundation, and that all that 
 is required in order to develop a greater Britain in this continent with a rapidity that 
 the people of the Old World have never been able to understand or appreciate, is to 
 energetically go forward in the future as we have done in the past ; and by the policy 
 which we have entered upon in the construction of the Canadian Pacific Kailway, 
 give that scope and verge for the development of that country that it would be im- 
 possible to give to it any other way. I referred a little while ago, Sir, to the value of 
 branches that were being constructed by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I 
 alluded to the fact that with the exception of the land along their line from Moose Jaw 
 to the Rocky Mountains, they would be obliged to get the balance of their land in the 
 North-West, between the fifty-second and fifty-fourth parallels of north latitude, and 
 that these lands were from 100 to 250 miles distant from the railway. Now, Sir, let me 
 just draw attention to this fact that while the Canadian Pacific Railway Company 
 have been constructing 281 miles of branches out of their own resources, and while 
 they are engaged in constructing another branch of 110 miles, and another of 180 
 miles in addition, to be built within the next two years, all that we have been able, 
 all that this Government has been able to do in constructing branches through that 
 great and priceless heritage of the North-West, by private enterprisers been one branch 
 of fifty-one miles, the South-Western and another of thirty, soon to be fifty miles on 
 the Portage, Westbourne and North- Western. I need not say, Sir, that this is the 
 total amount accomplished, notwithstanding that this Government gave to these 
 Companies 6,400 acres of land per mile at $1 an acre along these lines of railway, to 
 aid and assist them in the construction of these private branches ; and herej Sir, I may
 
 28 
 
 say, that on the Portage, Westbourne and North- Western line, as everybody knows 
 not a blow would have been struck if it had not been for the construction of the 
 Canadian Pacific Eailway to Portage la Prairie ; and I give that, Sir, as evidence to 
 the House of the enormous value of the developmet of this country in the North- 
 West Not only, Sir, have we this record of Winnipeg, bnt going further West, we 
 find Portage la Prairie, Brandon, Broadview, Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat 
 and Calgary, ajid we find in all these points the nucleus already of thriving, energetic, 
 populous towns rapidly to become large centres of population throughout that dis- 
 trict, and giving the nucleus and starting-points for the development of the population 
 and extension of branches north and south, in connection with the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, for the development of that country to an extent which could not be accom- 
 plished in any other way. In the cattle ranches at the foot of the Rocky Mountains 
 we have been enabled to illustrate and demonstrate to the world the fact that there 
 is no part of the continent of America better adapted to that class of business than 
 our Canadian North- West, into which great herds of eattle are pouring and supplying, 
 as they will continue to supply, the most important elements in connection with the 
 -development of that country. Now, Sir, I would like to ask my lion, friend, with 
 these facts before him, whether he is still prepared to reiterate the statement that the 
 advantages in connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway contract are all to be 
 found on the one side. I do not believe he will. Sir, we are developing not only the 
 agricultural resources of that country, but capitalists are pouring in to develop its 
 mineral resources. There is one respect in which we have a great advantage over 
 any portion of the prairies of the Western States one respect in which they" cannot 
 at all compare with us. It has already been stated on the highest testimony that the 
 fertility of the soil of our portion of the North- West is unequalled, and we have coal 
 one of the most vital elements in building up a great and prosperous people with 
 rapidity in the Canadian North- West, a great advantage over the prairies of the 
 Western States where the absence of this element was found to be a material draw- 
 back. I have in my hand the report made by an able, and one who is rapidly be- 
 coming a very eminent man I refer to Mr. George M. Dawson, who is connected 
 with the Department of the Interior. He says, after describing at length the value of 
 the seams and the admirable character of the coal in the North- West : 
 
 "The occurrence of workable coal seams at several different horizons, and the proved eontinnity of 
 some of them over great areas, guarantees an abundant supply of fuel in this district, a matter of great 
 importance in a country which over great areas is almost eatirely destitute of wood. The quality of 
 some of the fuel is such as to renderthein suitable for transport to a distance, and it is doubtless on this 
 belt of coal-bearing rocks in the vicinity of the mountains that the railways of the North-West will de- 
 pend chiefly for their supply. The quantity of coal already proved to exist is very great. The distance 
 for which the outcrops of certain seams have been traced have been mentioned. Approximate estimates 
 of the quaniity of coal underlying a square mile of country in several localities have been made with 
 the following results : 
 
 " Main seam in vicinity of coal banks, Belly River, coal underlying one square mile, 5,500,000 tons. 
 
 "Gras-y Island, Bow River (continuation of Belly River main seam), coal underlying one square 
 mile, over 5,000.000 tons. 
 
 '' Horse-shoe Bend, Bow River, coal underlying one square mile. 4,900,000 tons. 
 
 " Blackfoot Crossing, workable coal in seam as exposed on Bow River. Underlying one square mile, 
 9,000,000." 
 
 I refer to this, in passing, to show that in that most important element in the develop- 
 ment of a prairie country Canada possesses great superiority over any portion of the 
 Western States, and it is an element which will have a great deal to do with the 
 future of our country. We have gold, we have copper, we have iron mines which are 
 attracting immense attention at the present moment, at the head of Lake Superior, 
 to furnish a profitable industry for great numbers of people. And in that rougher 
 country from Prince Arthur's Landing all through to the head of Lake Nepigon and 
 Red River the hum of mining industries is now to be heard, while large amounts of 
 capital are going in to aid in the development of the mineral resources of the country. 
 I now turn the attention of the House for a single moment to another point in this 
 connection, and that is the position in which the country stands in relation to the 
 sales of land. I will read a short note which was addressed by Mr. Burgess, the able 
 Secretary of the Department of the Interior, to my friend the Speaker of the Senate, 
 who has been giving this subject his constant and careful attention for a length of 
 time. It was not given me for publication, but it expresses the facts of the case so 
 tersely and so much to the point that I venture to give to the House. 
 
 OTTAWA, 4th May, 18S3. 
 
 "Sin, Having given the subject my best and fullest consideration, I estimate that the receipts of 
 this Department from the sale of agricultural and coal lands, timber dues, rents of grazing lands, and 
 sales of mineral lands other than coal, with the royalties from the minerals, between the 1st January, 
 1883, and the 31st December, 1891, both inclusive, will amount to not less than $5S,000,000." 
 
 This note is signed by Mr. Burgess, under whose personal observation and informa-
 
 29 
 
 tion all these various point come. I give it to the House as an evidence of the sound 
 ness of the statement made by my right hon. friend, the Minister of the Interior 
 when he told the House three years ago that he confidently relied upon the construc- 
 tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway being accomplished without its costing one dol- 
 lar to the people of Canada, as the entire amount required to recoup the Government 
 and the country for their expenditure in connection with it would, at no distant date, 
 be returned by the sale of land and the revenues derived from lands in the North- 
 West. I say that the evidence on that point is very conclusive. I hold in my hands 
 a. statement of the Department as to what has taken place. I have already given the 
 total sales of 1872 to 1880 inclusive, and I have shown the utterly insignificant quan- 
 tity of lands that the Government was able to dispose of, and the small amount of 
 money they received for them namely, something like 31 cts. per acre. I now give 
 from the Department the following : Approximate estimate of the amount due 
 for lands time sales and pre-emption sales, computed from 1st January, 
 1880, to 31st December, 1882, and maturing before 31st December, 1885, $4,930,000, 
 Instalments owing by colonization companies to mature within four years 
 and assuming that the companies earn the full amount of rebate, $927,150- Companies 
 who have till 30th June, 1883, to complete agreements and to mature 
 within four years : Land and Colonization Company of Canada, $537,600 ; Saskatchewan 
 Land and Homestead Company, $322,560 ; Temperance Colonization Company, $835,- 
 656, or a total for these companies of $1,698.816. Estimated to be received from, colon- 
 ization companies who have till 28th February, 1883, to pay instalments, $150,0 ; 
 ground rents on timber leases, $4,165 ; owing at Winnipeg Timber Office, $25,600 ; 
 estimated amount owing by Canadian Pacifie Railway Company at Winnipeg Office, 
 $20,000, or a total of $7,755,731, and adding to this cash received during the calendar 
 year 1883, $2,256,850, or a total of $10,012,381. It will be remembered that my right 
 hon. friend made a computation of what would be received in connection with the sale 
 of lands in the North- West; and it will also be recollected that my hon. friend, the 
 leader of the Opposition, not only took great exception to the statement, but he pro- 
 nounced it so absolutely beyond any possible conception, as to entirely discredit, so 
 far as that hon. gentleman was able to discredit, the prediction and the computation 
 which the right hon. gentleman made. We estimated that by the time the Canadian 
 .Pacific Railway contract was to be completed under the terms of the contract, we 
 would receive not merely the $53,000,000 we were going to pay in connection with the 
 construction of that work, but that we would receive about $60,000,000, or a consider- 
 able amount over and above the entire expenditure we were called upon to make in 
 <nnection with the construction of that road. In order to show the House how 
 thoroughly reliable and within the mark that calculation is, I will give the calculation 
 made by my right hon. friend, and communicated to the House as our estimate two 
 years ago, when it was very much discredited by hon. gentlemen opposite ; and I will 
 also give the result. The Minister of the Interior estimated that in 1882 there would 
 be an incoming population of 35,000 ; the actual immigration of settlers into the 
 North- West was 58,751. I am almost afraid, Sir, of discrediting my right hon. friend 
 by reading these figures, because you will find how incapable he is of making an accu- 
 rate calculation. He estimated that the revenue to be derived from Dominion Lands 
 for the year 1882 would be $781,000; the actual revenue for the calendar year was 
 $2,256,000. My right hon. friend estimated for the year 1883, 40,000 as the increase of 
 population ; and my hon. friend, the Minister of Agriculture, estimates the increase 
 of population at 75,000, and I think that will be below the mark, as previous estimates 
 have been. My right hon. friend estimated the revenue to be derived from the lands 
 in 1883 at $1,820,000; the present estimate is $2,750,000, with every evidence that that 
 will be under the mark. My right hon. friend estimated the increased population of 
 1884 at $45,000, a much smaller estimate, it will be seen, than the actual increase of 
 1882 ; my hon. friend, the Minister of Agriculture, estimates it at 100,000. My right 
 hon. friend estimates the receipts at $2,622,000, and I have no doubt that we shall 
 receive in that year $4,250,000. I give these figures as the evidence upon which I 
 think we .may confidently ask the House to accept our estimates as being altogether 
 "below instead of above the mark ; and I ask my hon. friend, the leader of the 
 Opposition, again whether, with these figures, I am not warranted in the statement I 
 make in relation to everything connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway contract, 
 that down to the present hour the most sanguine calculations that any gentleman on 
 this side has ventured to offer to the House or the country have been more than 
 realized,; and 1 ask my hon. friend whether ho will reiterate the statement to this 
 House if he does 1 am sure it will be to incredulous ears on both sides of the House 
 rthat all the advantages of this contract are to bo found on one side.
 
 30 
 
 Now, Sir, I will say a single word, before I sit down, with refeience to the 
 net debt of the country. Every person knows that when this Government 
 came down to the House and asked it to sustain them in the policy oJ 
 vigorously grappling with the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway from end to 
 end, a wail of dismay was set up on the other side of the House, and every one 
 remembers the utter ruin and destruction that was going to result to Canadr. *rom the 
 attempt on the part of the Government, within any reasonable period, to construct 
 that great railway. Everybody remembers the warning, the solemn warning, that 
 my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition gave to the House, that in that ruin we 
 were going to destroy the very foundation of our country's prosperity. He admitted 
 with us that the greatest thing for Canada Avas to bring people into the eountry ; but 
 he said, " You will load this country down with a debt so gigantic in proportion to its 
 population that everybody will avoid Canada as they would a pestilence, and our im- 
 migration will cease." I am glad, Sir, to be able under these circumstances to draw 
 the attention of the House for a single moment to a calculation made by my hon. 
 friend the Minister of Finance and we all know how far below the mark all his cal- 
 culations have been, how careful he has been not to overstate anything as to the con- 
 dition which this country will be in with respect to its debt, when the time comes 
 under the contract for the completion of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I may state, 
 and I do so with great pleasure, the result of one year's experience, which we have 
 had already, of the Pacific Railway contract. We have had one year in which my 
 hon. friend the leader of the Opposition says the Canadian Pacific Railway Company 
 have gone too fast ; we have had one year of unprecedented rapidity of construction 
 and of draft on the treasury of the country for public money under the contract ; and 
 what has that year disclosed ? Why, Sir, at the close of that year after we had paid 
 them every dollar that they were entitled to, with all that rapidity of construction, 
 we actually owed $1,734,129 less than we did at the beginning of the year. The net 
 debt of the Dominion the net debt on the 30th of June, 1881, at the beginning of the 
 contract, was $155,395,780.40; on 30th of June, 1882, it was $153,661,650.78, or, as I said 
 before, a decrease of $1,734,129.62. So much for the ruin that was to overtake this 
 country by the rapid construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway. Now, Sir, my hon. 
 friend the Minister of Finance has given me this memorandum : 
 
 Surplus Consolidated Revenue, 1879-80 ' $4,132,743 
 
 do do do 1880-81 6,316,052 
 
 Proceeds of lands, 1880-81 1,744,456 
 
 Estimated surplus this year 6,090,000 
 
 Proceeds of lands this year 1,750,000 
 
 Estimated surplus next year 3,000,000 
 
 Estimated proceeds from lands 2,250,000 
 
 Estimated saving of interest after January, 1885,1 per cent, on $30,000,- 
 
 000. $300,000 per annum or equal to a reduction of debt of 7,500,000 
 
 If we have a surplus of about $1,000,000 a year from June, 1884 to 1891, 
 
 say seven years 7,000,000 
 
 Proceeds of lands, seven years at $2,000,000 would be 14,000,000 
 
 $53,693.251 
 
 This is the amount that we expect to receive from surplus revenue and the sales of 
 land from the commencement of this contract down to the time the contract provides 
 for the completion of the work. With that calculation before us and I think all will 
 admit that it is a safe calculation I think we may come to the conclusion, not only 
 that our country will not be overwhelmed in debt, but that we shall be in the position 
 that the Imperial Government are in to-day. Mr. Childers has brought forward his 
 budget, and in it he has very much astonished hon. gentlemen opposite, by a proposal 
 to reduce the National Debt by 8,000,000 a year. It was reduced last year by 8,000,- 
 000, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to reduce it this year by 8,000,000. 
 So my hon. friend the Minister of Finance proposes to reduce our debt ; so we propose 
 to use these surpluses, not for the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway, mark 
 you, but for the reduction of the public debt, that when this work is constructed from 
 end to end there will not only be no increased indebtedness upon Canada, but 
 at an early day the sales of the lands alone will recoup back to the treasury of 
 the country every dollar that has been expended. But what will be the difference ? 
 Why the difference will be that instead of being overwhelmed with debt, instead of 
 immigrants who are looking to our shores as a future home being driven to seek 
 other lands, because we are borne down by a monstrous debt that we are unable to 
 control or provide for, the hon. gentleman will find that we shall have in this country 
 reduced the debt, and at the same time a little over 4,000,000 of people will have ac- 
 complished one of the most gigantic feats in the record of aiy country in the world, 
 the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway from ocean to ocean. I feel that we
 
 31 
 
 are in a position to congratulate ourselves upon the condition of our country, of which 
 every Canadian may bo justly proud. I say, Sir, that in contemplation of these facts, 
 I trust my hon. friend will reconsider the statement which he made, and will come 
 to the conclusion that the statement that all the advantages were to be found on one 
 side, requires some little modification at his hands. I may say, Sir, that it would be 
 impossible, in my judgment, to find any country in the world that has exhibited 
 greater evidences of progress and prosperity, during the time that we have been en- 
 gaged in actively grappling with the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, 
 ;than Canada presents, take it from what point you may. I spoke a little while ago of 
 , the great advantages the United States of America had in regard to attracting popu- 
 lation to their country; but what is the fact? Here in this Canada of ours, we have 
 been able, in connection with the construction of this great national work, and with 
 the efforts that have been made through that Company and the Government of the 
 country, to increase the immigiT^.on from Europe 50 per cent, while our neighbors 
 (the United States) have been oniy able to increase their immigrant population 3 per 
 cent. The tables are turned. Every person knows that the eyes of the civilized 
 world have, for many long years, been turned to the wonderful development of the 
 great country south of us. Every person knows that there never was a country that 
 has made such progress as Canada has made in regard to the sentiment of the people, 
 the press and the Government of England. The position Canada occupied yesterday 
 has been entirely changed, and to-day the statesmen, the press and the most intelli- 
 gent minds of that country are drawing the attention of the people to the 
 fact that the wide world presents no more inviting or attractive field 
 for those who wish to seek homes in the New World than is to be 
 found within the Dominion of Canada. Wo have every reason to feel proud of our 
 position, when we look at the rapidity of the increase of our population, at the 
 imports of the country, at the exports of the country, and atj the increasing and de- 
 veloping industries of the country. We are prepared to-day to meet our great 
 American neighbors to the south of us in friendly rivalry, and to show that in neither 
 one nor the other of these great factors of the development, and of the progress of the 
 country are we behind. Now, Sir, I have trespassed upon the attention of the House 
 much longer than I intended to, and if I were to judge by the futility of my efforts in 
 the past, I would sit down without saying any more to my friends on the other side 
 of the House. I have already stated, Sir, that looking at it from a party point of view, 
 nothing could be more conducive to the continued rule of the Conservative party of 
 this country than that hon. gentlemen opposite should continue to maintain the atti- 
 tude that they have maintained in the past in relation to this great work. I have 
 said, Sir, what I sincerely believe, that there is no question that is so rooted in the 
 public mind of the great body of the intelligent men of all parties and all classes in 
 this country, as the conviction that the Government of Canada deserves well 
 at the hands of the people for having put their hands to this great work, 
 and for having achieved the contract under which our country is surging 
 ahead with such gigantic strides. But, Sir, there is a greater, there is a higher, there 
 is a more important standpoint from which to view this question than one of party. 
 Even at this late hour I would ask our friends on the opposite side of the House not- 
 withstanding the great advantage it will give them, and the great advantage it 
 will take from us I ask them to bury the dead past and to unite with us on the 
 greatest national question that is now engaging the attention of the people of Canada, 
 unite with us in a hearty endeavor to elevate, to raiso and to advance the prosperity 
 of our country together, as it can be only elevated, and only advanced and 
 only raised by the united sympathy and hearty action and co-operation of both 
 parties. I feel that it is more in the interest of hon. gentlemen opposite 
 than in the interest of my friends that I make this proposition. But, Sir, I believe that 
 the time is coming, when, with the evidence before the world, that we have achieved 
 a position, of which no Canadian, however sanguine, dared two or three years ago to 
 dream we could attain in so short a period. I believe, Sir, that the time is coming 
 when every patriotic Canadian will feel bound to unite, heart and soul, with all the 
 energy that he possesses, in a common effort, to sustain this gigantic enterprise, which 
 has already accomplished so much, and is calculated to accomplish still more to make 
 us a great and prosperous country.
 
 SPEECH OF HON. J. H. POPE. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Blake followed Hon. Sir Charles Tapper in the debate upon the Pacific Railway, and was 
 in turn followed by Hon. J. H. Pope, Minister of Agriculture, who said : 
 
 I am not going, Mr. Speaker, to make a speech, but before the House rises I'desire to 'point out some 
 of the mistakes which the hon. gentleman has made, and purposely made, and after having done that I shall 
 move that the House adjourn. The hon. gentleman declared, in effect, that he came before Ithe House as 
 a superior man, and as such, would discuss the question. He had hardly entered on his task before he dealt 
 with the subject in the most extreme manner. With respect to his quotations from the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway tariff, I wish to show his disingenuousness, that he did not point out matters in the tariff, except 
 in a way that must be misleading, and which he knew was misleading. 
 
 What did the hon. gentleman say? Quoting from the Canadian Pacific Railway tariff, he said 
 that merchandise of the first class was 80 cents per hundred pounds, while on the Union Pacific it was 57 
 cents, the distance being 200 miles. With respect to the rates for 400 miles he said nothing, and regarding 
 those for 600 miles he said nothing. If he had told the House that they were $1.97 on the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, and $2.47 on the Union Pacific for the latter distance, he would have told the House the truth 
 and dealt with the question in a fair manner. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE I had not the rates of the Union Pacific over 200 miles. 
 
 Mr. POPE Then I wish to inform the hon. gentleman, because he has led the House astray. In 
 regard to second class goods, the rate of the Canadian Pacific Railway was 67 cents, as against 60 cents on 
 the Union Pacific. If he had taken 400 miles he would have found the rate $1.35 on the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, and $2.13 on the Union Pacific, and he would therefore have given the House some idea what the 
 tariffs really are. If the hon. gentleman knows anything about railways, he would be aware that almost 
 all the goods are classed as third and fourth class, and that the rate on first class is of little importance, . 
 because the great bulk of goods belongs to the third and fourth classes. On the third class the rate is 54 
 cents on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and 51 cents on the Union Pacific. If he had taken 600 miles, he 
 would have found the rate $1.08 on the Canadian Pacific, and 1.91 on the Union Pacific. Now, sir, T 
 only desire things to be understood. I think it well, after what has been placed before the House 
 to-night, that this matter should not be left as the hon. gentleman left it. Now we come to the fourth 
 class, which is the most important. The hon. gentleman did not quote these rates, and why? Just for 
 the reason that for fourth class goods for 200 miles, the rate on the Canadian Pacific is 40 cents, and 46 
 cents on the Union Pacific. Then, Sir, why did he not take the rates for 600 miles? If hehadtaken 600 
 miles, he would have found that the rate on the Canadian Pacific is 86 cents, and $1.59 on the Union 
 Pacific. He quoted a little further. He went into grades. He said it was 24 cents for 200 miles on 
 the Canadian Pacific ; but against 24 cents, it is 46 cents on the Union Pacific for 200 miles, and the rate 
 of 42 cents on the Canadian Pacific for 600 miles, is $1.49 on the Union Pacific. Now, if he had taken 
 flour, he would have found, that while*the rate is 48 cents for 200 miles on the Canadian Pacific, it is 
 92 cents for 200 miles on the Union Pacific; and while 84 cents are charged for 600 miles on the 
 Canadian Pacific, $3.18 are charged on the Union Pacific. This, Sir, would have given a 
 better idea of the true state of matters to the House. The rate for salt and lime is 66 cents on the- 
 Canadian Pacific for 200 miles, and 70 cents on the Union Pacific, and $1.29 for 600 miles on the Canadian 
 Pacific, and $2.45 on the Union Pacific. If we take timber, shingles, Ac., what the hon. gentleman men- 
 tioned, we find that $37 a car for 200 miles are charged on the Canadian Pacific, and $36 on the Union , 
 Pacific, while $73 are charged for 600 miles on the Canadian Pacific, and $118 is charged on the Union 
 Pacific. If he had taken live stock , he would find that $60 a car are charged on the Canadian Pacific for 200 ' 
 miles, and $55 on the Union Pacific ; $124 a car being charged on the Canadian Pacific for 600 miles, and 
 $180 on the Union Pacific ; and so, Sir, it is to the end. My hon. friend explained when he rose that if 
 you take short distances you would find, perhaps, the rates a little heavier ; but, said the hon. gentleman,. 
 " we did not find this to be the case on the Pembina Branch." And why ? There were no long distances 
 on that road. My hon. friend, when he addressed the House to-night, said that they intended to encourage- 
 trade and to assist men who had gone a long way into the country, by giving them cheaper proportionate 
 rates ; and he stated that this was all right. What I complain of, and am desirous of reminding you and 
 setting right before the House if possible before the country was the comparison which the hon., 
 gentleman made between the rates on the Union Pacific and Canadian Pacific.
 
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