a
 

 
 POLITICAL ECONOMY CLUB
 
 
 MACMILLAN AND CO.. LIMITED 
 
 LONDON BOMBAY CALCUTTA MADRAS 
 MELBOURNE 
 
 THE MACMILLAN COMPANY 
 
 NEW YORK BOSTON CHICAGO 
 DALLAS SAN FRANCISCO 
 
 THE MACMILLAN CO. OF CANADA, LTD. 
 
 TORONTO
 
 , , . 
 
 ' / r/ . > W,
 
 POLITICAL 
 ECONOMY CLUB 
 
 FOUNDED IN LONDON, 1821 
 
 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, 1899-1920 
 ROLL OF MEMBERS 
 
 AND 
 
 QUESTIONS DISCUSSED, 1821-1920 
 
 WITH DOCUMENTS BEARING ON THE 
 HISTORY OF THE CLUB 
 
 VOLUME VI 
 
 MACMILLAN AND CO., LIMITED 
 
 ST. MARTIN'S STREET, LONDON 
 
 1921
 
 COPYRIGHT 
 
 GLASKOW : MINTKI) AT THE UNIVERSITY PRESS 
 T ROBERT MACLEHOSK AND CO. I.TI).
 
 CONTENTS 
 
 PACK 
 
 DAVID RICARDO - Frontispiece 
 
 From the mezzotint by T. Hodgetts after the portrait by T. Phillips, R.A. 
 
 I. INTRODUCTION - vii 
 
 II. MINUTES, 1821-22 i 
 
 III. QUESTIONS, 1821-99 - 18 
 
 IV. MINUTES, 1899-1920 - - 127 
 
 V. DIARIES 
 
 J. L. Mallet - - 205 
 
 J. L. Prevost - 276 
 
 VI. EXTRACTS FROM LETTERS, BIOGRAPHIES, ETC. 
 
 J. B. Say - - 300 
 
 D. Ricardo - - 300 
 
 James Mill - - 303 
 
 J. R. McCulloch - - 304 
 
 N. W. Senior - 305 
 
 Lord Overstone - - 305 
 
 Sir R. Hill - - 308 
 
 Sir C. Dilke - - 309 
 
 W. S. Jevons - 310 
 
 F. Harrison - 313 
 
 Sir G. Chesney - 313 
 
 L. H. Courtney - - 314 
 
 H. Sidgwick - - 315 
 
 Lord Courtney - 315 
 
 H. R. Grenfell, Paper by 317 
 
 W. Stebbing, Reminiscences by - - 323 
 
 Lord Courtney, Reminiscences by - - 325 
 
 Sir J. Macdonell, Paper by - - 333 
 
 Conclusion - - 349 
 
 1315736
 
 vi Contents 
 
 PAGE 
 
 VII. LIST OF MEMBERS FROM THE FOUNDATION - 358 
 
 HONORARY MEMBERS - - 368 
 
 ,, COMMITTEE AND OFFICERS - - 370 
 
 MEMBERS, 1920 - - 373 
 
 VIII. RULES AS EXISTING IN 1920 - - 375 
 
 IX. INDEX TO QUESTIONS, 1821-1920 - - 379 
 
 X. GENERAL INDEX ... - 459
 
 INTRODUCTION 
 
 THE Proceedings of the Political Economy Club, printed 
 annually for the use of Members, have been collected from 
 time to time into octavo volumes for the Society. The 
 following have appeared : 
 
 Vol. I. 1860. Questions 1833-60, Lists of Members, etc. 
 
 Vol. II. 1872. Questions 1860-72, Lists of Members, etc. 
 
 Vol. III. 1881. Questions 1872-80, with Lists of Mem- 
 bers, etc. This volume included extensive extracts from 
 the pamphlet Report of the Banquet held by the Club, 
 3ist May, 1876, to celebrate the centenary of the publication 
 of the Wealth of Nations. 
 
 Vol. IV. 1882. Questions and full Minutes of the Club 
 with Lists of Members, etc., from 1821 to 1882. The original 
 Minute books 1821-1832 were mislaid until 1881, and it 
 was then decided to print a full record from the commence- 
 ment. A portrait of Tooke, from a photograph by Claudet 
 in 1855 was added, together with facsimiles of a portion of 
 the draft rules in the handwriting of James Mill, 1821, and 
 of the Minute written by Tooke at the special dinner held 
 at Greenwich in July 1846 to celebrate the passing of the 
 Corn Law Repeal and Customs Bill. The Merchants' 
 Petition, 1820, was printed in full in this volume, with a 
 long extract from the sixth volume of Tooke and Newmarch's 
 History of Prices, relative to the origin of the Petition and 
 its presentation to Parliament. 
 
 VH
 
 viii Introduction 
 
 Vol. V. 1899. Minutes of the Club 1882-99, w ^h Lists 
 of Members, etc. 
 
 The preceding volumes have long been out of print, and 
 it was decided to include in this collection (Vol. VI.) a 
 complete list of questions discussed during one hundred 
 years. The Minutes of 1821-3 have been given showing 
 the formation of the Club. It would have added unduly 
 to the length of the volume to set out the full Minutes with 
 names of Members and Visitors present at dinner from 
 1823-1899. These will be found in volumes IV. and V. 
 
 " The Political Economy Club was founded in London 
 in the year 1821, chiefly by the exertions of the late Thomas 
 Tooke, F.R.S., to support the principles of Free Trade 
 set forth in the well-known London Merchants' Petition 
 of 1820, originated and written by Mr. Tooke." With 
 this statement the Club volume of 1882 opens, and its 
 accuracy cannot be doubted. Tooke had already been 
 named as the moving spirit in the formation of the Club 
 in the volume issued in 1860, two years after his death. 
 One of the original members, G. W. Norman, still remained 
 to the Club, and other members were in possession of first- 
 hand evidence of the facts. James Mill is probably himself 
 responsible for his biographer's statement x that Tooke was 
 the projector of the Club. The assertion of Sir Charles 
 Dilke * and others that the Club was founded by James 
 Mill is erroneous. 
 
 Although Tooke was the prime mover 3 it is highly probable 
 that the idea of a Club sprung from the eagerness of David 
 
 1 See p. 303 post. z P. 309 post. 
 
 3 This is as high as it seems proper to put Tooke's claims, seeing that 
 G. VV. Norman at the Banquet of 1876 went no further than the statement 
 that Tooke was " said to have been the founder of the Club." The Tooke 
 note was perhaps a little forced by Newmarch in the volume of 1882.
 
 Introduction ix 
 
 Ricardo to enjoy the society of the economists of his time. 
 This view is shared by his biographer Professor J. H. 
 Hollander. 1 At his country house at Gatcomb Park in 
 Gloucestershire, Malthus, Say, James Mill, M c Culloch, 
 Maria Edgeworth, Sydney Smith, and Hutches Trower 
 were among Ricardo's visitors for the week-end or longer. 
 And when he had retired from the Stock Exchange and 
 gone into Parliament, his economic breakfasts and dinners 
 at 56 Upper Brook Street, London, became a regular institu- 
 tion. After one of these dinners, J. L. Mallet made the 
 following entry in his diary, under the date I2th January, 
 1820 : 
 
 "It is impossible to be in company with Ricardo and 
 not to admire his placid temper, the candour of his dis- 
 position, his patience and attention, and the clearness of 
 his mind, but he is as the French would express it herisse 
 de principes. He meets you upon every subject that he 
 has studied with a mind made up and opinions in the nature 
 of mathematical truths. He spoke of Parliamentary Re- 
 form and Vote by Ballot as a man who would bring such 
 things about and destroy the existing system to-morrow 
 if it were in his power, and without the slightest doubt as 
 to the result. And yet there was not one person at table 
 (several of them individuals whose opinions he highly 
 valued) who would have agreed with him. It is this very 
 quality of the man's mind, his entire disregard of experience 
 and practice, which makes me doubtful of his opinions on 
 political economy. His speech on paying off the National 
 Debt has very much damaged him in the House of Commons, 
 which cannot but be regretted. He and Mr. Tooke and 
 Pascoe Grenfell and Sharpe appeared to me to regard the 
 state of the country in much too favourable a point of view, 
 
 1 David Ricardo, Baltimore, 1910, p. 52.
 
 x Introduction 
 
 the only circumstance upon which they laid any stress 
 was the transfer of capital abroad. But as to loss of capital 
 at home, deterioration of fixed capital, wages without 
 adequate return, lessening of consumption, agricultural 
 sufferings they made light of these things. It was enough 
 that they were provided for and classed under their proper 
 heads with their natural remedies in books of Political 
 Economy." 
 
 Though " there was not one person at table who would 
 have agreed with him " there were obvious restraints upon 
 controversy with their host, and it is not surprising that 
 Tooke should have desired a more neutral arena for 
 debate. He was already concerting with a small number 
 of friends to take action against the attempts of certain 
 politicians to perpetuate the scarcity and high prices 
 which prevailed during the War, and in favour of a 
 reform of the whole of our commercial system " which 
 was encumbered, disfigured, and shackled by innumer- 
 able vexatious, obstructive and impolitic restrictions that 
 had come down to us from periods long antecedent to 
 the War." 
 
 It was thought desirable to form a committee to spread 
 sound opinions upon the subject of freedom of trade, with 
 a view to legislation, and a small dinner party of ten was 
 arranged at the house of S. C. Holland, a partner in Baring 
 and Co., on the 3ist of January, 1820. Tooke was 
 chagrined to find that although his fellow guests had been 
 selected on the assumption that they were all free traders, 
 three or four of them had " most crude and confused ideas " 
 upon the principles involved. Exemptions from the applica- 
 tion of Free Trade were claimed, first for one article, and 
 then for another, and finally Tooke proposed that the 
 majority should embody their opinions in a petition to
 
 Introduction xi 
 
 Parliament. This proposal was adopted, and Tooke drafted 
 the famous Merchants' Petition, which was favourably 
 received by Lord Liverpool's Government, and laid down 
 the principles of a Free Trade policy. 
 
 The originators of the Petition were the men who created 
 the Club. Meeting again at Swinton Holland's 1 on the 
 i8th of April, 1821, they made the provisional arrange- 
 ments described in the Minutes, and entrusted to James 
 Mill the task of preparing a draft of rules for consideration. 
 The draft underwent considerable alteration before the 
 rules were adopted. A portion of the draft seems to have 
 been intended rather as a recommendation than as a rule 
 to be formally enacted, and some of Mill's literary flourish, 
 though formally passed, has never been taken very seriously. 
 In any case the Club did not accept the grotesque pro- 
 posal for a nightly catechism of Members. Even if time 
 permitted it, the sense of humour would have been fatal to 
 its adoption. The continued interest of the Members of the 
 Club in the Merchants' Petition was shown by their engaging 
 Mr. Galiano to translate it into Spanish and by ordering 
 500 copies to be printed for distribution " in the new States 
 of South America " Spain having lost her South American 
 Colonies in 1823. (Minutes of 6th December, 1824, loth 
 January and 7th February, 1825.) 
 
 The Club has from the outset been composed mainly 
 of men of business. Next in order come those engaged 
 in politics, public officials, men of letters, lawyers, and 
 professional economists. T. R. Malthus was the only 
 Professor among the original members. The idea that 
 the Club was from its birth dominated by the doctrinaire 
 
 1 Holland was one of the first Committee, and opened the first question 
 (p. 5) discussed by the Club. His great grandson, Mr. Holland-Martin, 
 is a member of the present Committee.
 
 xii Introduction 
 
 views of its small body of Utilitarian members 1 should 
 be finally dispelled by the records now published. " The 
 Political Economy Club," says Sir W. Ashley, 2 " was the 
 assembly of the elders of the new Church, and its rules 
 breathe all the spirit of ecclesiastical fervour. ' The just 
 principles of political economy ' are assumed to be already 
 discovered ; the members bind themselves to pursue their 
 ' diffusion.' They declare it to be their duty to ' watch 
 carefully and to ascertain if any doctrines hostile to sound 
 views in Political Economy have been propagated ' ; they 
 undertake ' to avail themselves of every favourable oppor- 
 tunity for the publication of seasonable truths.' ' There 
 was, no doubt, general agreement with the main thesis 
 of the Wealth of Nations ; but nothing was further from 
 the feeling of the first members than the idea that finality 
 had been reached in the principles or the method of political 
 economy, or that they were a little chapel of sectaries with 
 ^hom was deposited the true faith. The subject of con- 
 versation at each meeting was to be " some doubt or 
 question on some topic of political economy " and Maria 
 Edgeworth tells us of the gentleman who " answered very 
 well the other day when asked if he would be of the famous 
 Political Economy Club, that he would, whenever he could 
 find two members of it that agree in any one point. 3 " 
 J. L. Mallet offers convincing testimony as to the lack of 
 unanimity which characterised the Club discussions. (Pages 
 217, 218 post. See also M c Culloch, p. 304.) 
 
 1 See p. 309 pott. 
 
 'Address to the British Association, Economic Section, Leicester, 
 1907. 
 
 3 Memoir of Maria Edgworth, privately printed, 3 vols., London, 
 1867, edited by Mrs. F. A. Edgeworth. The quotation is from a letter 
 dated Qth March, 1822. The Club had become famous in less than 
 a year !
 
 Introduction xiii 
 
 Ricardo, though he did not long survive the foundation of 
 the Club, was a very keen member, and wrote to Malthus 
 from Gatcomb on 27th Nov., 1821 : " I am sorry that I 
 shall be obliged to miss two of the Political Economy [Club] 
 meetings as I shall not be in London." On Ricardo 's death 
 in 1823 we find James Mill writing to M c Culloch not 
 yet a member " you and I are his two and only genuine 
 disciples." James Mill did not find the atmosphere of 
 the Club very congenial, and seldom attended after 1826. 
 Between that date and 1835, when he resigned, the minutes 
 record him as present on only three occasions. Mallet 
 observes " He is not enough of an oracle among us, and 
 does not find among his equals in intellect " Torrens, 
 Malthus, M c Culloch, and Tooke, the deference to which 
 he is accustomed. 1 It is permissible to suspect his bio- 
 grapher of partiality in his view that Mill emerged with 
 flying colours from his encounters with Malthus. 2 His 
 geometrical mind could probably ill brook the inconvenient 
 facts with which Tooke and the other realists of the Club 
 were prepared to confront him. It would be indeed a 
 strange perversion of history to regard either the spirit of 
 Ricardo or the elder Mill as having dominated the Club. 
 Tooke appears to have carried great weight as the founder 
 of the Society, as the distinguished historian of prices, and 
 as a respected City merchant, remarkable for his range of 
 knowledge and sound judgment. It is noteworthy that 
 even in his private diary Mallet, while usually referring to 
 other members by their surnames, seldom omits to write 
 " Mr. Tooke." Lord Overstone's letter on page 307, gives 
 us an amusing glimpse of the ascendancy which Tooke had 
 acquired by 1852. Though theoretical questions were 
 
 1 Page 224 post. 
 
 2 Page 304 post.
 
 xiv Introduction 
 
 frequently discussed, the bent of the Club was eminently 
 practical. 
 
 No official record is kept of the views expressed by 
 members in the course of discussions, and a word of warning 
 may be needed to those who now see the veil lifted in diaries 
 and reminiscences. Speakers who have not before them 
 the fear of a reporter may sometimes argue strongly on 
 one side or another to preserve the balance, or to provoke 
 discussion of some neglected factor. They may be so 
 unfortunate as to find irony mistaken for genuine opinion. 
 It is still remembered that Mr. Gladstone, after passionately 
 informing the Club that there is no single, possible, or 
 conceivable objection to the use of one pound notes, thrilled 
 the House of Commons with a denunciation of Goschen's 
 modest proposals as disgraceful and immoral. He would 
 no doubt have been as indignant at the disclosure of his 
 remarks at a private dinner party as he would have been 
 ingenious in defending his consistency. But the most 
 honest of diarists may be mistaken in his impressions, and 
 the autobiographer may easily be betrayed by his memory 
 of distant years. With the lapse of time discretion may be 
 allowed to be relaxed, but accuracy is prone to suffer. 
 
 There have been two festival meetings of the Club. Under 
 the date July I4th, 1846, the minutes record : " Trafalgar 
 Hotel, Greenwich. Instead of the ordinary July meeting 
 at the Freemason's Tavern, the members of the Club dined 
 here this day to celebrate the practical triumph of the 
 principles of Free Trade (the furtherance of which was one 
 of the main objects of the formation of the Club), by the 
 passing of the Corn Law Repeal and Customs Bills. Sir 
 G. Larpent was in the chair and S. J. Loyd l in the vice- 
 chair. Nineteen members were present with Count Stretizki, 
 
 1 Afterwards Lord Overstone.
 
 Introduction xv 
 
 the Hon. C. P. Villiers, the Rt. Hon. T. Milner Gibson, 
 J. S. Lefevre, J. Macgregor, and B. W. Currie as visitors. 
 It was arranged that on this occasion there should not be 
 the usual discussion of special questions, but several toasts 
 were given in connection with the professed object of the 
 meeting." The facsimile of this minute, in the handwriting 
 of Tooke, was inserted in the Club volume of 1882. 
 
 On the 3ist of May, 1876, a special dinner was held at 
 the Pall Mall Restaurant in honour of the One Hundredth 
 Anniversary of the publication of the Wealth of Nations. 
 Thirty-nine members were present and sixty-three dis- 
 tinguished guests. Mr. F. Harrison (resigned 1886) is the 
 only survivor of the then members. Mr. W. Stebbing and 
 Professor Foxwell, now members of the Club, were present 
 as guests. Professor Foxwell (who was the guest of Jevons) 
 has preserved a plan of the Tables which states that members 
 were seated so far as practicable in order of seniority. A 
 special report of 88 pages was printed for the Club, with 
 the speeches of Lowe, Leon Say, Norman, de Laveleye, 
 Thorold Rogers,Newmarch,Gladstone, Forster, and Courtney. 
 Articles were added from the Economist, Times (two) , Daily 
 News, Pall Mall Gazette, and Capital and Labour. The Mer- 
 chants' Petition was again reproduced, and other matter was 
 added. This Report is now very rare. After Robert Lowe 
 had opened the question " What are the more important 
 results which have followed from the publication of the 
 Wealth of Nations, just one hundred years ago, and in what 
 principal directions do the doctrines of that book still 
 remain to be applied ? " the great Minister of Finance, 
 M. Leon Say, who liberated France from the German in- 
 demnity, addressed the Club in French, and recalled the 
 memory of his grandfather, J. B. Say. Following upon 
 a number of speeches Gladstone, as Chairman, made a
 
 xvi Introduction 
 
 long and interesting statement, in the course of which 
 he said : "In France there is a system, which in some 
 respects is highly beneficial, of distributing the business 
 amongst Bureaux of the Legislature, in a degree greater 
 than that in which we attempt to practise it ; and if we 
 could only prevail upon the House of Commons to make 
 this Society one of those Bureaux for the disposal of a 
 considerable number of not unimportant questions, my 
 opinion is that they would be decided here with greater 
 facility, and with much greater advantage, than they are 
 sometimes decided in that House as at present constituted," 
 testimony which was, no doubt, sweet to his fellow-members 
 notwithstanding that the House as then constituted was 
 supporting the administration of Mr. Disraeli. Gladstone 
 paid a high compliment to Hugh M c Culloch, who was present, 
 as a member, for the courage and skill with which he had 
 restored the American currency. (See page 312 post.) 
 
 Mention may be made of the visit which J. B. Say paid 
 to the Club on the 6th of June, 1828. The Chairman 
 expressed the gratification of the Club at the presence of 
 its distinguished member, and proposed his health. 
 
 Lord Brassey entertained the Club at his residence in 
 December 1911 (see p. 167) on which occasion ladies were 
 present for the only time in the history of the Society. 
 With these exceptions the ceremonial actions of the Club 
 have been confined to the passing of resolutions of regret 
 at the loss of its most prominent supporters beginning 
 with Torrens in 1851, Waley and J. S. Mill, 1873, Bagehot 
 and Macleod, 1877, Newmarch, Norman and Jevons, 1882, 
 Fawcett, 1884, Lord Bramwell, 1892, Henry Sidgwick, 1900, 
 Spring-Rice, 1902, Goschen, 1907, Giffen, 1910, F. W. 
 Buxton, 1911, Westlake and Lord Avebury, 1913, Lord 
 Brassey, 1918, Lord Courtney, 1919.
 
 Introduction xvii 
 
 In 1855 the question was raised how the Club might 
 best utilise its growing balance of funds, and the decision 
 to print the first volume of proceedings left enough in hand 
 to admit of the adoption of a scheme for reprinting for 
 the Club, some Early English Select Tracts on Money. 
 M c Culloch supplied the originals and contributed a preface. 
 One hundred and fifty copies were printed and distributed 
 to members. In 1856, a second volume was ordered, Early 
 English Tracts on Commerce, and was followed by two 
 volumes of old and scarce tracts privately printed at the 
 expense of Lord Overstone, all edited by M c Culloch. These 
 volumes are now themselves scarce. In 1870, it was 
 proposed to print for the Club a selection of the works of 
 Arthur Young, but the project was ultimately abandoned. 
 The sum of fifty pounds was subscribed from the Club 
 funds to the memorial to J. S. Mill in 1873, and twenty 
 pounds to the Royal Economic Society in 1911. 
 
 The Rules of the Club, as will be seen by comparing 
 pages 2-5 with pages 375-8 have undergone little change 
 during a hundred years. The number of ordinary members, 
 originally limited to thirty, was raised to thirty-five in 
 February, 1847, and to forty in March, 1904. Two French 
 economists have been elected as honorary members J. B. 
 Say in 1822, and M. Yves-Guyot in 1919. The Professors 
 of Political Economy at Oxford and Cambridge were ex- 
 officio honorary members at the outset, and Dublin and 
 King's College, London, were soon added. Nassau Senior 
 was the mover of several extensions to the list of chairs 
 whose incumbents should be eligible for honorary member- 
 ship. The object in each case was to secure the election 
 of a particular economist. Galway, Belfast, Edinburgh, 
 Owens College, yielded Cairnes, Cliffe Leslie, Hodgson, and 
 Jevons. The present rule covers Professors in any Uni-
 
 xviii Introduction 
 
 versity in the United Kingdom. " Persons who have 
 shown themselves eminent in any branch of Economic 
 Science " were in 1904 included in the circle from which 
 (including the professors) not more than seven honorary 
 members may now be elected. 
 
 Since 1834, members who become Cabinet Ministers 
 are made honorary members, supernumerary to the forty 
 limit. There have been a few exceptional cases. M c Culloch 
 was " treated as an honorary member " from 1824 till his 
 formal election in 1829. During these five years his name 
 frequently appears among those of members present, and 
 he took a full share in opening and discussing questions. 
 Lord Overstone (1872) and G. W. Norman (1880) were, 
 late in life, elected honorary members as a mark of esteem. 
 The original policy of the Club was to require every 
 member to throw his ideas into the common stock. It 
 was laid down at the outset (page 3 post) : "At each 
 meeting three of the members in alphabetical rotation 
 shall be required to propose each some doubt or question 
 on some topic of Political Economy which may be con- 
 sidered by the members during the interval and form the 
 subject of conversation at the next meeting." In 1860 
 we find the following rules in force : 
 
 " At each meeting any Member has the privilege of 
 proposing as many questions on Political Economy as he 
 pleases, for the consideration of the Club. These must 
 be delivered in writing to the Secretary, subscribed with 
 the name of the Proposer. 
 
 " Previous to the adjournment of any meeting, the Secre- 
 tary is required to read the newly proposed questions, and 
 during the intervals between the Meetings, to have all the 
 questions standing for discussion printed and distributed 
 to the Members of the Club.
 
 Introduction xix 
 
 " The questions are to be examined at subsequent Meetings 
 in any order which may seem good to the Society. 
 
 " The Proposer of a question, if present, opens the dis- 
 cussion of it. 
 
 " In case at any Meeting the Secretary shall declare 
 that there are fewer than three questions standing for 
 examination at the subsequent Meetings, the Chairman 
 of the day is required to call upon any Members present 
 to contribute each one question till the number be made 
 up to six." 
 
 These Rules are reproduced in the volumes issued in 
 1881 and 1882. Towards the end of the last century the 
 practice of calling for and circulating questions for future 
 discussion was abandoned without formal change of rule. 
 The present rules are silent upon the subject, and the 
 question for discussion is now usually arranged between 
 the Secretary and the opener. 
 
 The rules were originally strict upon the point that the 
 remarks of the opener and subsequent speakers were not 
 to be read from a written or printed document. At a 
 later date the opener was allowed to circulate a printed 
 synopsis of his argument in advance. The notes of openers 
 gradually became more and more voluminous, until finally 
 the practice of reading a paper was acquiesced in. The 
 expectation that this might lead to greater brevity and 
 conciseness has not been borne out by experience. One 
 result has been the publication of many of these opening 
 statements as magazine articles. Specimens of proposed 
 questions and of synopses were printed in the previous 
 volumes. 
 
 In 1888 Chadwick printed a pamphlet of eight pages under 
 the title : ' The Malthusian Theory, the copy of a paper 
 read at the Political Economy Club, with some additions,
 
 xx Introduction 
 
 on the question Since Malthus first propounded his 
 doctrine of Population, what have been the chief experiences 
 bearing upon it ? " Another pamphlet which may be 
 mentioned here is : "A few Remarks on Professor Cairnes's 
 recent contribution to Political Economy. By a former 
 member of the Political Economy Club. 1875." This consists 
 of eighteen pages octavo, and was published by Simpkin, 
 Marshall & Co., London. The authorship is narrowed down 
 to three or four persons to whom alone the description could 
 apply at that date. Jevons contributed to the Contem- 
 porary Review in 1876 an interesting article on " The Future 
 of Political Economy," 1 inspired by the Club banquet, and 
 containing many references to the Club. Since the founda- 
 tion of the Royal Economic Society in 1890 its organ, the 
 Economic Journal, has given publicity to several of the 
 papers first read at the Club, while many others have been 
 incorporated with more or less alteration in published 
 volumes. 
 
 The regulations for the admission of strangers have been 
 gradually relaxed, and the amount of the annual subscrip- 
 tion has been changed from time to time. Originally the 
 members dined at a long table, with a Chairman at one 
 end and a Vice-Chairman at the other. The rules provided 
 that " all observations shall be addressed to the Chairman 
 or Deputy-Chairman, whichever may be most distant from 
 the person speaking." This was, no doubt, designed to 
 ensure audibility. In 1868 the Club formally resolved 
 that the Chairman should henceforth sit in the middle of 
 the table. The practice of appointing a Vice-Chairman at 
 each meeting has dropped into disuse. 
 
 In 1860 the rule above quoted was followed by the 
 words : " The last rule shall be superseded only during 
 1 Reprinted in his Principles of Economics, 1905.
 
 Introduction xxi 
 
 the period of tea, the commencement and termination of 
 which shall be declared by the Chairman." In this brief 
 interval conversation became general and unrestricted. 
 Reference is made to the tea interval by Prevost in his 
 Diary (p. 288 post}. The muffins, to which allusion is 
 made by Dilke and Courtney, were associated with this 
 interval. They were discontinued when the Club removed 
 to the Hotel Cecil in 1900. 
 
 The dinner has gradually become less elaborate. In 1839 
 M c Culloch carried a motion that strangers be introduced to 
 all future meetings of the Club on payment of one guinea 
 by the member introducing them. In 1876 it was resolved 
 that on and after February, 1877, the Club will dine at the 
 Pall Mall Restaurant in Waterloo Place, at a price of 2is. 
 per head, and that in future a sum of los. be paid for each 
 visitor by the persons introducing them ; but that the 
 Committee of the Club be empowered to invite as visitors 
 at the charge of the Club persons eminent in the branches 
 of knowledge cultivated by the Club. Steps had already 
 been taken in 1872 to lighten the meal. On the 6th 
 December, " it was ordered that in future Light Claret and 
 Moselle be provided at Dinner. Also that the landlord be 
 requested so far to abridge the side dishes as to admit of 
 the dinner being got through in one hour." The claret 
 and moselle were in addition to the heavier wines. In 
 a letter to Sir Louis Mallet on ist June, 1875, Courtney, 
 as Secretary, says, " Pray do not think of retiring from 
 the Club : it cannot afford to lose you. I think some- 
 thing might be done to improve the quality of the wine, 
 and if you raise the subject the next time you dine you 
 will not want backing." The charge for visitors was tacitly 
 dropped in the nineties, and has been omitted from the 
 latest rules.
 
 xxii Introduction 
 
 The Club dinners have been held at the following places : 
 
 1821-1850, Freemason's Tavern, Great Queen Street. 
 1850-1861, Thatched House Tavern, St. James's Street. 
 1861-1867, St. James's Restaurant, 71 The Quadrant, 
 
 Regent Street. 
 
 1867-1877, Willis's Rooms, King Street, St. James's. 
 1877-1880, Pall Mall Restaurant, 14 Waterloo Place. 
 1880-1899, Inns of Court Hotel, Lincoln's Inn Fields. 
 1900-1917, Hotel Cecil, Strand. 
 1917-1919, Imperial Restaurant, Regent Street. 
 1919 to the present time, Gatti's Restaurant, Strand. 
 
 The hour of dinner was altered from 6 to 6.30 in 1831 
 and from 6.30 to 7 in 1882. The discussions, formerly 
 prolonged till n o'clock or later, are now usually concluded 
 about 10, and the old practice under which the Chairman 
 expected each member or visitor to add a few words to 
 the conversation and called upon silent members by name, 
 is no longer observed. The speeches under the old practice 
 tended to be more terse and crisp than when a few speakers 
 take up the whole time available for conversation, the 
 time having now been curtailed at each end. 
 
 The rule is still maintained that speakers should retain 
 their seats, an arrangement by which the Volume of 1882 
 states " brevity and effect are much promoted." 
 
 Efforts have been made to recover some of the traditions 
 of the Society from past and present members. Sir Bernard 
 Mallet has kindly contributed some letters to his father and 
 the rich material contained in the diaries of his grand- 
 father, an original member. Jean Louis (Anglic^, John 
 Lewis) Mallet was a son of Mallet du Pan, whose name is 
 well-known to students of the French Revolution. Born 
 at Geneva in 1775 he came to London with his father in
 
 Introduction xxiii 
 
 1798, and was engaged to translate into French " A Brief 
 Examination into the increase of the Revenue Commerce 
 and Navigation of Great Britain," by the Rt. Hon. George 
 Rose, Secretary of the Treasury, 1799. When he was sent 
 for by Mr. Rose, whom he " attended several times," Mallet 
 executed this portrait of him : " Mr. Rose, with all his clever- 
 ness and sound sense and sagacity had a great deal of 
 humbug both in private and public life. He looked things 
 unutterable ; and what with his consequential manner and 
 monosyllables, and what I knew of his great influence I 
 felt an extraordinary degree of awe in his presence." On 
 the death of his father in 1800 Mallet was given by Mr. Rose 
 a clerkship in the Board of Audit, of which he was soon made 
 Secretary. As became the son of a distinguished annalist 
 he kept a series of diaries, from the Domestic section of which 
 our extracts are taken. It is unfortunate that these do not 
 cover the years 1821-1829, when he confined himself to a 
 Political series. His vivid pictures of the Club, its members 
 and visitors (and incidentally of himself) are of the highest 
 interest. He gives us particulars of two meetings on the 
 2nd December, 1830, and loth January, 1833, upon which 
 the printed Minutes are silent. In some other respects his 
 diary differs slightly from the printed record, but except in a 
 few obvious slips his account has been faithfully reproduced. 
 It bears all the marks of care and accuracy. His auto- 
 biography from 1775-1800 was privately printed in 1890 
 with a prefatory memoir by his son, Sir Louis Mallet. A 
 biographical notice by his grandson, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 will be found in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. 
 
 It is a curious coincidence that our other diarist, Prevost 
 (another John Lewis) also came from a Geneva family of 
 Huguenot refugees from France. His recollections have 
 been supplied to the Club, through Mr. Huth Jackson, by
 
 xxiv Introduction 
 
 his nephew, Sir Augustus Prevost, sometime Governor of 
 the Bank of England. Prevost 's father, Alexander Prevost, 
 was an original member of the Club. Professor Prevost of 
 Geneva, who was a guest of the Club in 1824, was probably 
 an uncle. The diary may have been kept in French for 
 greater privacy. It was evidently meant for Pre vest's 
 use only, but its mordant passages may now be reproduced 
 without reproach. While Mallet gave his impressions time 
 to cool, and wrote them out on the next or some later day, 
 Prevost inscribed his notes red hot, evidently from words 
 and phrases of speakers jotted down during discussion. 
 These quotations are more valuable than the comments, in 
 which he is less judicious and weighty than Mallet. He 
 was a director of the London and Birmingham Railway, 
 (which became the London and North Western), and also 
 of the South Eastern Railway. 
 
 The letter from J. B. Say, to which allusion is made in 
 the minutes of 3rd June, 1822 (see page 16), has been re- 
 printed from Say's works, and will be found on page 301. 
 
 The letters from Lord Overstone to G. W. Norman (pages 
 305-308), have been obligingly communicated by Mr. A. T. 
 Loyd, M.P. Overstone was one of the great figures of the 
 Club. He was a visitor as early as 1822, was elected in 1831, 
 and remained a member for fifty-one years. The confidential 
 adviser of many Chancellors, he was careful to destroy most 
 of his correspondence before his death. His estate was 
 sworn at under 2, 100,000 a sensational fortune at that time. 
 He was elected an honorary member in 1872, as a special 
 mark of respect. Mallet and Prevost give us an interesting 
 view of his personality. 
 
 The notes used by the late Mr. H. R. Grenfell in opening 
 a question in 1883 the year of Overstone 's death illus- 
 trate the attitude of the old guard towards the development
 
 Introduction xxv 
 
 of new and broader views. Grenfell, sometime Governor 
 of the Bank, was brought into the Club by Courtney, who 
 was impressed by some letters published by Grenfell on 
 banking questions. He served from 1882 to 1900 as 
 Treasurer. On currency and banking he spoke with force 
 and ability, and did not spare the feelings of his opponents. 
 Though an uncompromising believer in Laissez-faire in 
 industry, he called himself a heretic so far as Free Trade was 
 concerned. 
 
 The reminiscences of Lord Courtney and Mr. W. Stebbing, 
 now the doyen of the ordinary members of the Club, 1 were 
 written for this volume in 1917. The valuable paper of 
 Sir John Macdonell, after being mislaid by him for sixteen 
 years, was communicated in February, 1921, with a request 
 that if used it should be printed in extenso. The author 
 desired to revise it in print, but did not survive to see it. 
 A few necessary corrections have been made, but no liberties 
 have been taken either with this or any other of the docu- 
 ments collected. 
 
 From its foundation in 1821 to the end of 1920 the 
 Minutes record 692 dinners. 2 The attendance of members 
 totals 10,549, f visitors 2487. 
 
 During the last twenty years the Club has lost many of 
 the depositaries of its traditions, and it became increasingly 
 desirable that some record of their reminiscences should 
 be preserved. On the 7th December, 1904 " Mr. Higgs, 
 seconded by Sir W. Lee Warner, revived a proposal which 
 had been made two years ago by Mr. Stebbing, and moved : 
 ' That a Committee, consisting of Sir Robert Giffen and 
 Mr. James Bonar, with power to add to their number, 
 
 1 Lord Eversley elected in 1871 and Mr. A. J. Balfour elected in 1877, 
 now honorary members, come first in order of seniority. 
 
 2 The true number is a little higher. (See p. xxiii.)
 
 xxvi Introduction 
 
 should be appointed to consider the question of the prepara- 
 tion of a history of the Political Economy Club.' " Sir 
 Bernard Mallet and Mr. Higgs were co-opted as members of 
 this Committee which made a good start, but its labours 
 were seriously affected by the death of Sir R. Giffen, by 
 Dr. Bonar's appointment to be Deputy-Master of the Royal 
 Mint at Ottawa, and by Mr. Higgs's acceptance of a three- 
 years' engagement with the Egyptian Government. On his 
 return from Egypt in 1915, Mr. Higgs re-opened the ques- 
 tion, and on 2nd February, 1916, " at the motion of Sir Hugh 
 Bell, seconded by Mr. St. Loe Strachey, Mr. Higgs was 
 appointed Historiographer, and requested to prepare a 
 History at some date before the centenary of the Club 
 in 1921." 
 
 Sir Robert Giffen stated in 1905, that he had written 
 " a good many pages of reminiscences," but had been 
 interrupted by an attack of vertigo. These pages un- 
 fortunately have not been recovered. The memoranda 
 prepared by Dr. Bonar have been most helpful in the 
 compilation of this volume, in which Sir Bernard Mallet 
 has shown a practical and unflagging interest. 
 
 The portrait of Ricardo is reduced from an engraving 
 lent by Sir Bernard Mallet, probably the one referred to by 
 his grandfather on page 209. The original was published 
 by Messrs. Colnaghi's, Cockspur Street, London, 6th May, 
 1822, the year before Ricardo's death. 
 
 H. H. 
 
 June, 1921.
 
 1821. April iSth. 13, Russell-square, London. 
 The following gentlemen being present, viz. : 
 
 Swinton C. Holland, 
 Thomas Tooke, 
 Colonel Torrens, 
 Geo. H. Larpent, 
 
 James Mill, 
 J. L. Mallet, 
 Robert Mushet, 
 Jno. W. Cowell, 
 
 G. W. Norman, 
 
 S. C. HOLLAND in the Chair ; It was resolved 
 
 
 i. That the present be a provisional meeting for the 
 formation of a Society for promoting the knowledge of 
 Political Economy. 
 
 2. That another meeting be held on Thursday the 3oth 
 inst. to draw up rules for constituting the Society and 
 directing its proceedings. 
 
 3. That the meeting be held at the Freemasons' Tavern, 
 at 6 o'clock on that day at dinner. 
 
 4. That Messrs. Holland and Torrens be a committee to 
 make the requisite preparations for the meeting. 
 
 5. That Mr. Mill be requested to prepare for the con- 
 sideration of the said meeting a draft of Regulations for 
 constituting the Society and regulating its subsequent pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 P. E.G.
 
 2 Political Economy Club 1821 
 
 April $oth. Freemasons' Tavern. 
 
 In consequence of the above resolutions the following gentle- 
 men met together this day, viz. : S. C. Holland, Colonel Torrens, 
 T. R. Malthus, D. Ricardo, R. Mushet, James Mill, Thomas 
 Tooke, H. Entwistle, H. Warburton, G. Larpent, G. Brown, 
 Colonel Maberly, Hon. K. Douglas, G. W. Norman, J. W. Cowell, 
 G. Grote, R. Simpson, F. Mitchell. 
 
 Colonel TORRENS hi the Chair. 
 
 On the motion of Mr. Holland Mr. Mill proceeded to read the 
 draft of the regulations which he had prepared for the con- 
 stitution of the Society which regulations, when assented to by 
 the Society, stand as follows : 
 
 CLASS I. 
 
 i. The number of the members of the Club shall be 
 limited to thirty. P.* 
 
 2. The name of a candidate shall be communicated to 
 the Club, together with that of the member who proposes 
 him, one meeting at least before the election. P. 
 
 3. New members shall be chosen by ballot, the assent 
 of two-thirds of the members present being requisite to 
 constitute a member. P. 
 
 4. The Club shall meet on the first Monday of every 
 month from December to June inclusive. The expense of 
 the dinners to be five guineas each person and the 
 amount to be paid into the hands of Mr. Grote at the 
 beginning of the season. P. 
 
 5. One of the members present shall be chosen at each 
 meeting to preside as Chairman. P. 
 
 * Seems to imply passed, or provisionally adopted.
 
 i82i Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 3 
 
 6. One of the members shall be chosen to officiate as 
 Secretary. P. 
 
 7. Five strangers may be admitted at each meeting and 
 the members in the order of the alphabet shall be allowed 
 to invite the same, each inviting one. P. 
 
 CLASS II. 
 
 The members of this Society will regard their own mutual 
 instruction, and the diffusion among others of just prin- 
 ciples of Political Economy as a real and important obliga- 
 tion. P. 
 
 At each meeting three of the members in alphabetical 
 rotation shall be required to propose each some doubt or 
 question on some topic of Political Economy which may 
 be considered by the members during the interval and 
 form the subject of conversation at the next meeting. P. 
 
 At each meeting the Chairman shall put to each of the 
 members present the following questions : 
 
 Have you read or heard of any book or other writing 
 lately published likely in your opinion to interest the 
 members of this Society and can you give any account 
 of it ? S.* 
 
 In the course of your reading or intercourse have you 
 met with any facts or speculations which appeared to you 
 important as regarding Political Economy ? S. 
 
 Have you been engaged in any conversation or discussion 
 on subjects of Political Economy an account of which 
 would be useful for the purposes of this meeting ? S. 
 
 Do you know anything in the legislation or practice of this 
 country, not recently under the consideration of this Society 
 
 * Suspended.
 
 4 Political Economy Club 1821 
 
 peculiarly at variance with the principles of Political 
 Economy and has anything occurred to you with respect 
 to the means of remedying such evils ? S. 
 
 Have any facts come to your knowledge or recollection 
 in the legislation or practice of other nations a knowledge 
 of which would conduce to the purposes of this meeting ? S. 
 
 Has anything occurred to your mind capable of being 
 done by this Society in order to rectify any mistakes in 
 regard to Political Economy in the legislation in the 
 practice or in the opinions of this or of any other country ? 
 S. 
 
 As the Press is the grand instrument for the diffusion of 
 knowledge or of error all the members of this Society will 
 regard it as incumbent upon them to watch carefully the 
 proceedings of the Press and to ascertain if any doctrines 
 hostile to sound views in Political Economy have been 
 propagated ; to contribute whatever may be in their power 
 to refute such erroneous doctrines and counteract their 
 influence ; and to avail themselves of every favourable 
 opportunity for the publication of seasonable truths within 
 the province of this science. P. 
 
 For attaining more perfectly the ends which may be 
 accomplished by the Press, a committee consisting of three 
 members shall be chosen at each meeting, who shall con- 
 sider it in a peculiar manner their duty to attend to the 
 objects enumerated in the preceding article during the 
 interval between that and the next meeting of the Society. 
 S. 
 
 At the last meeting for the season a succession of such 
 members shall be chosen to undertake the duties above 
 enumerated for each of the intervening months till the re- 
 assembling of the Society. S.
 
 i82i Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 5 
 
 It shall be considered the duty of the Society to study 
 the means of obtaining access to the public mind through 
 as many as possible of the periodical publications of the day, 
 and to influence as far as possible the tone of such publica- 
 tions in favour of just principles of Political Economy. P. 
 
 It shall be considered the duty of this Society individually 
 and collectively to aid the circulation of all publications 
 which they deem useful to the science by making the merits 
 of them known as widely as possible, and to limit the 
 influence of hurtful publications by the same means. P. 
 
 After the passing of the above recited resolutions Mr. Grote 
 was elected Treasurer, Mr. Cowell Secretary, and the first Super- 
 vising Committee was appointed, consisting of Messrs. Norman, 
 Grote, and Maberly. 
 
 Letters were read from Messrs. Mallet and Prinsep who were 
 accepted Members of the Society though prevented from attend- 
 ing the meeting. 
 
 The questions proposed for discussion at the next meeting 
 were 
 
 i. What would be an efficient countervailing duty on 
 Corn ? S. C. HOLLAND. 
 
 2. The quantity of Money being constant, would a 
 general tax upon all commodities in a country raise their 
 prices ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 3. Can there be a general Glut of commodities ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 May 28th. Freemasons' Tavern. 
 
 S. C. HOLLAND and T. TOOKE being in the Chair, and the 
 following gentlemen being present, viz. : Messrs. S. C. Holland, 
 H. Entwistle, G. W. Norman, Rev. T. R. Malthus, D. Ricardo,
 
 6 Political Economy Club 1821 
 
 R. Mushet, James Mill, T. Tooke, H. Warburton, G. Brown, 
 Colonel Maberly, J. W. Cowell, C. R. Prinsep, Colonel Torrens, 
 R. Simpson, J. L. Mallet, G. Larpent, G. Grote, 
 
 Mr. Holland proceeded to propose the regulations of the Society, 
 when considerable alterations and amendments were effected, 
 for which see the copy of the regulations ; and Mr. Ricardo 
 proposed the following resolution, which was adopted : 
 
 In case of more candidates than vacancies, the order in 
 which the candidates shall be proposed shall be determined 
 by a previous ballot. 
 
 The Chairman declared the number of Vacancies to be ten, 
 and the following gentlemen were proposed as candidates for 
 admission, viz. : 
 
 | Mr. Spooner \ 
 
 c- u r> 11 t b V Mr - Ricardo. 
 
 J Sir H. Parnell j 
 
 Mr. Tohn Smith . ,. ) 
 
 ,, , , > by Mr. Simpson. 
 
 Mr. Zaehary Macaulay... j 
 
 Mr. Cazenove by Rev. T. R. Malthus. 
 
 Mr. Wm. Haldimand by Mr. Prinsep. 
 
 Mr. Walter Coulson ) . _, 
 
 _. >... by Colonel Torrens. 
 
 Mr. Fletcher j 
 
 Mr. Edward Simeon by Mr. Tooke. 
 
 Mr. Basevi by Mr. Mushet. 
 
 Mr. John Shaw Lefevre by Mr. Cowell. 
 
 Mr. George Lyall ) 
 
 > by Mr. Holland. 
 
 Mr. Alexander Prevost .. J 
 
 Mr. 
 
 Blanchard by Mr. 
 
 (proxy for Hon. K. Douglas). 
 
 Mr. Holland then read the three questions proposed for dis- 
 cussion at this meeting the first of which alone occupied the 
 attention of the Society. 
 
 The Society adjourned at half-past n to June 25th. 
 Mr. John Shaw Lefevre was present, on the invitation of 
 Mr. Cowell.
 
 1 82 1 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 7 
 
 June 2$th. 
 D. RICARDO, Chair. J. MILL, Vice-Chair. 
 
 S. C. Holland, J. L. Mallet, R. Simpson, Colonel Torrens, 
 R. Mushet, G. Grote, H. Warburton, Rev. T. R. Malthus, Hon. 
 K. Douglas, T. Tooke, Charles R. Prinsep, G. W. Norman. 
 
 Mr. Mill informed the Club that Mr. PEACOCK wished to with- 
 draw his name as a candidate for one of the vacancies. Mr. 
 Prinsep gave a like notice on the part of Mr. HALDIMAND. 
 
 The Club then proceeded to choose the following gentlemen 
 from among the remaining candidates each of whom was after- 
 wards separately balloted for, and elected a member of the Club, 
 by a majority of two-thirds of the members present : 
 
 Sir H. Parnell, Bt., M.P. Mr. Z. Macaulay. 
 Mr. John Smith, M.P. ,, John Cazenove. 
 
 ,, W. Coulson. ,, A. Prevost. 
 
 ,, Edward Simeon. ,, M. Basevi. 
 
 ,, G. Lyall. ,, J. Shaw Lefevre. 
 
 The Secretary was directed to inform the above gentlemen of 
 their election. 
 
 The Club proceeded to discuss two interesting questions in 
 Political Economy 
 
 i. What would be an efficient countervailing duty on 
 Corn ? 
 
 2. Can there be a Glut of commodities ? 
 
 The further consideration of the latter was deferred to the 
 next meeting, when the following query by Mr. Ricardo is 
 to be also discussed : 
 
 Whether Machinery has a tendency to diminish the 
 demand for labour ?
 
 8 Political Economy Club 1821 
 
 The Club adjourned at ir o'clock to the first Monday in 
 December. 
 
 No strangers were present.* 
 
 December 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS, Chair. J. MILL, Vice-Chair. 
 
 G. Larpent, G. Brown, R. Mushet, Z. Macaulay, R. Simpson, 
 
 F. Mitchell, Charles Prinsep, G. Lyall, W. Coulson, J. Cazenove, 
 Colonel Torrens, S. C. Holland, J. L. Mallet, E. Simeon, T. Tooke, 
 
 G. W. Norman. 
 
 Visitors : Colonel de Bosset and Captain Walsh on the invita- 
 tion of Colonel Torrens. 
 
 The Club proceeded to resume the discussion on the Query 
 proposed, and partially considered, at the last meeting, 
 
 " Can there be a general Glut of commodities ? " 
 
 The conversation then turned upon a question which had stood 
 on the minutes of the Club since the 30th April, viz. : 
 
 " The quantity of Money being constant, would a General 
 Tax upon all the commodities in a country raise their 
 prices ? " 
 
 It was resolved that discussion on the question proposed by 
 Mr. Ricardo, as to " whether machinery has a tendency to 
 diminish the demand for labour," should be deferred till the 
 return of that gentleman to London. 
 
 * The following note appears in the volume of 1882 : " These 
 Minutes of June, 1821, are written out and signed by Mr. G. W. 
 Norman as Secretary pro tern. Mr. Norman is still (1882) a 
 Member of the Club, at an advanced but vigorous and honoured 
 old age. The Club have marked their respect and esteem by 
 making him an Honorary Member."
 
 i82i Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 9 
 
 The following questions were then proposed as subjects for 
 conversation at the next meeting of the Club : 
 
 i. What is the best practical remedy for the evils of the 
 Poor Laws ? Z. MACAULAY. 
 
 2. What is the effect of Taxation on general prices in a 
 country having no Foreign trade ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 3. Whether, under any circumstances the restrictions of 
 the Colonial system can be beneficial to the Mother-country ? 
 
 G. H. LARPENT. 
 
 4. On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 As it appeared to several members that Monday, the yth 
 January, the next regular day of meeting, would be inconvenient, 
 and that only a very thin attendance could be then expected, 
 it was resolved that the Society should meet the subsequent 
 Monday, the I4th January, to which day the Club adjourned at 
 ii o'clock. 
 
 1822. January 
 G. BROWN, Chair. G. LARPENT, Vice-Chair. 
 
 S. C. Holland, G. Grote, J. S. Lefevre, R. Simpson, Z. Macaulay, 
 Colonel Torrens, J. Cazenove, R. Mushet, W. Coulson, J. L. 
 Mallet, G. Lyall, T. Tooke, G. W. Norman. 
 
 It was resolved that in future any four members should have 
 the right of introducing a Visitor, upon signifying their inten- 
 tions to Mr. Cuff on the morning of the day of meeting, in order 
 that Dinner may be prepared accordingly ; and that the gentle- 
 men so introducing visitors be requested to give their names 
 and that of the stranger to the Secretary in writing during the 
 course of the evening.
 
 io Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 The Society then proceeded to discuss the question proposed 
 at the last meeting by Mr. Macaulay, relative to the Poor Laws. 
 
 The conversation then turned upon the question " What is 
 the effect of Taxation on general prices in a country having no 
 Foreign trade ? " 
 
 As the above most interesting problem appears likely to 
 receive more complete elucidation from the presence of Mr. 
 Ricardo and Mr. Mill, which may be expected at the next meeting, 
 it was resolved to defer its further discussion till that period, 
 at which the following questions remain also to be considered : 
 
 i. Whether under any circumstances the restrictions of 
 the Colonial system can be beneficial to the Mother-country. 
 
 G. LARPENT. 
 
 2. On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 3. Whether Machinery has a tendency to diminish the 
 demand for Labour ? D. RICARDO. 
 
 Adjourned at n o'clock to Monday, the 4th February. 
 
 February qth. 
 J. L. MALLET, Chair. R. MUSHET, Vice-Chair. 
 
 G. Brown, Rev. T. R. Malthus, R. Simpson, T. Tooke, C. 
 Prinsep, J. Cazenove, G. Lyall, G. Grote, J. S. Lefevre, W. 
 Coulson, D. Ricardo, S. C. Holland, G. W. Norman. 
 
 Visitors : Dr. Roget on the invitation of Messrs. Brown, 
 Holland, Simpson and Tooke ; and Mr. Francis Baring on the 
 invitation of Messrs. Mallet, Larpent, Warburton and Cazenove. 
 
 It was resolved that in future all new regulations and all 
 alterations of existing rules, shall be proposed at one meeting 
 and confirmed at the next.
 
 1 822 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. n 
 
 A resolution was proposed by Mr. S. C. Holland that Foreigners 
 usually resident out of the United Kingdom shall be eligible to 
 be chosen Honorary Members of this Society. 
 
 MONS. SAY was proposed by Mr. Holland as an honorary 
 member. 
 
 A letter from M. Say to Mr. Ricardo was read on the difference 
 of opinion between them relative to Wealth and Exchangeable 
 Value, as well as the answer of Mr. Ricardo. The thanks of the 
 Club were voted to both gentlemen for these communications. 
 
 Mr. Tooke read the copy of a letter from himself to Mr. Mill 
 relative to the effect of Taxation on Prices. 
 
 The following questions were discussed : 
 
 i. Has Machinery a tendency to diminish the demand 
 for Labour ? 
 
 2. What is the effect of Taxation on Prices in a country 
 having no Foreign trade ? 
 
 The further consideration of the latter was deferred till the 
 next meeting, when the following questions are also to be dis- 
 cussed : 
 
 i. Can the restrictions of the Colonial system under any 
 circumstances be beneficial to the Mother-country ? 
 
 G. LARPENT. 
 2. On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 3. Is there any necessary connection between the rate 
 of Profit and the rate of Interest ? 
 
 G. W. NORMAN. 
 4. What would be the best mode of Taxation ? 
 
 G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 Adjourned at n o'clock to Monday, the 4th March.
 
 12 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 March qth. 
 T. TOOKE, Chair. Z. MACAULAY, Vice-Chair. 
 
 G. W. Norman, G. Larpent, J. L. Mallet, E. Simeon, G. Brown, 
 J. Smith, R. Simpson, R. Mushet, S. C. Holland, D. Ricardo, 
 Sir H. Parnell, G. Lyall, Rev. T. R. Malthus, Z. Macaulay, C. 
 Prinsep, J. S. Lefevre, J. W. Cowell, Colonel Maberly, J. Cazenove, 
 H Warburton, M. Basevi. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Whitmore, M.P., on the invitation of Sir H. 
 Parnell, Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Mill and Mr. Tooke ; and Mr. S. J. 
 Loyd, M.P., on the invitation of Messrs. Norman, Mushet, Grote 
 and Cowell. 
 
 The two resolutions proposed at the meeting of February 4th 
 were put and carried, viz. : 
 
 That Foreigners usually resident out of the United Kingdom 
 shall be eligible as Honorary Members of this Society. 
 
 That M. SAY be elected an honorary member of this Society. 
 
 Both resolutions were proposed by Mr. Holland. 
 
 The Secretary was directed to notify his election to M. SAY. 
 
 The Society then resumed the discussion of the following 
 question : What is the effect of Taxation in a country having 
 no Foreign trade ? From which they passed to the consideration 
 of Mr. Norman's question, viz. : Whether there is any necessary 
 connection between the rate of Profit and the rate of Interest ? 
 
 The questions for the consideration of the next meeting are 
 
 i. Can the restrictions of the Colonial system under any 
 circumstances be beneficial to the Mother-country ? 
 
 GEO. LARPENT. 
 On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 What would be the best mode of Taxation ? 
 
 G. W. NORMAN.
 
 1 822 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 13 
 
 April ist. 
 H. WARBURTON, Chair. J. CAZENOVE, Vice-Chair. 
 
 Sir H. Parnell, Colonel Torrens, Rev. T. R. Malthus, J. L. ' 
 Mallet, G. Brown, G. Larpent, S. C. Holland, G. Lyall, E. 
 Simeon, H. Entwistle, J. W. Cowell, G. Grote, J. S. Lefevre, 
 G. W. Norman, R. Mushet, M. Basevi, R. Simpson, T. Tooke, 
 D. Ricardo. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Lambton, M.P., on the invitation of Messrs. 
 Warburton, Ricardo, Mill and Tooke. 
 
 The Secretary informed the Society that he had notified to 
 M. SAY his election as an Honorary Member. 
 
 The Society then proceeded to discuss Mr. Larpent 's question, 
 " Whether the restrictions of the Colonial system can under any 
 circumstance be beneficial to the Mother-country." 
 
 From which they directed their attention to Mr. Norman's 
 question concerning " the best mode of Taxation," which, after 
 some discussion, they determined to reconsider. 
 
 Mr. Malthus begged to postpone the discussion of his question. 
 
 The following resolution was proposed by Mr. Tooke for 
 adoption at the next meeting : 
 
 That any member intending to reside abroad for a year 
 or more may vacate his seat upon condition if he requires 
 it of being re-elected without ballot on the first vacancy 
 after his return. 
 
 The following questions were proposed for discussion in addition 
 to those on the book : 
 
 i. Is it practicable to pay the whole or a considerable 
 part of the National Debt by a contribution on the capital 
 of individuals ; and, if practicable, would it be expedient 
 to do so ? G. BROWN.
 
 14 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 2. How far are Rents and Profits affected by Tithes ? 
 
 H. WARBURTON. 
 
 3. What are the leading points or prominent features of 
 the improvement in the Science of Political Economy since 
 the publication of Smith's " Wealth of Nations ? " 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 The questions for discussion which were previously on the 
 book are : 
 
 What is the effect of Taxation on prices in a country 
 having no Foreign trade ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 What would be the best mode of Taxation ? 
 
 G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 May 6th. 
 J. MILL, Chair. Col. TORRENS, Vice-Chair. 
 
 John Smith, Rev. T. R. Malthus, J. Cazenove, J. W. Cowell, 
 G. Lyall, G. Larpent, M. Basevi, J. L. Mallet, Chas. Prinsep. 
 H. Entwistle, G. Grote, G. Brown, S. C. Holland, R. Mushet, 
 G. W. Norman, R. Simpson, Z. Macaulay, J. S. Lefevre, T. 
 Tooke (came in the course of the evening). 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Owen (of Lanark) on the invitation of Messrs. 
 Grote, Maberly, Mushet and Cowell ; and Sheridan on the 
 invitation of Messrs. Ricardo, Lefevre, John Smith and Larpent. 
 
 Mr. Tooke 's resolution proposed at the previous meeting was 
 put and carried without opposition. 
 
 The Society then occupied itself with hearing from Mr. OWEN 
 some of the particulars of his plan for ameliorating the condition
 
 i822 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 15 
 
 of mankind and some of the principles on which it is founded, 
 from which it passed to the consideration of Mr. Norman's 
 question concerning " the best mode of Taxation," the develop- 
 ment of which gave rise to a great deal of interesting conversa- 
 tion. 
 
 The Secretary was instructed to get the questions for dis- 
 cussion at the next meeting printed and forwarded to the members 
 in the interval between the two meetings and to write to those 
 members who have not paid their subscriptions to the Treasurer 
 to inform them that the sittings of the Society are nearly ended 
 for this year. 
 
 The following question was proposed by Mr. Cazenove : 
 
 Under a system of Free Trade, would an ad valorem duty 
 upon all commodities render it necessary to impose a similar 
 duty upon all imported commodities, with a view to the 
 protection of the home producer ? 
 
 June yd. 
 J. L. MALLET, Chair. J. CAZENOVE, Vice-Chair. 
 
 Sir H. Parnell, 7. Macaulay, G. Brown, S. C. Holland, G. Lyall, ] 
 J. Mill, T. Tooke, Rev. T. R. Malthus, W. Coulson, H. Entwistle, 
 G. Larpent, M. Basevi, Col. Maberly, Col. Torrens, J. S. Lefevre, 
 R. Mushet, R. Simpson, J. W. Cowell. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Althorp on the invitation of Messrs. Lefevere, 
 Maberly, Norman and Prinsep ; the Due de Broglie on the 
 invitation of Messrs. Malthus, Mushet, John Smith and Basevi ; 
 the Baron de Stael on the invitation of Messrs. Cazenove, Holland, 
 Mallet and Simpson ; and Mr. Steuart Inglis on the invitation 
 of Messrs. Ricardo, Warburton, Mill and Tooke. 
 
 The Secretary informed the Society that according to their 
 directions he had written to those gentlemen who had not paid
 
 16 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 their subscriptions, requesting them to pay the same to the 
 Treasurer ; that he had caused the questions for discussion to 
 be printed ; and that since the last meeting he had received a 
 letter from M. Say, thanking the Society for his election as an 
 honorary member. The letter was directed to be read. After 
 expressing thanks for his election M. Say proceeds to declare 
 his sense of the utility of such a Society and to say that he is 
 anxious to do all in his power to forward the objects of it. He 
 proposes the two following questions : 
 
 i. Jusqu'a quel point 1'obscurite et la complication des 
 lois civiles, les delais de la justice, et les frais de procedure, 
 sont-ils nuisibles a la production des richesses ? 
 
 2. Par quels moyens pourrait-on obtenir des gouverne- 
 ments que, pendant les guerres qu'ils se font, les relations 
 pacifiques et commerciales des particuliers entr'eux, etant 
 dans 1'interet de 1'un et de 1'autre pays, fussent continuees 
 comme en temps de paix ? 
 
 The Society directed that their sense of the gratification 
 afforded to them by the letter of this distinguished individual 
 should be expressed in the Minutes. 
 
 Mr. Brown proposed, as the present was the last meeting for 
 the season, that a Committee should be nominated to consider 
 of the interests of the Society. 
 
 Mr. Holland seconded the motion, which was carried unani- 
 mously. 
 
 The members nominated as the Committee were : Messrs. 
 Holland, Mill, Tooke, Mallet, the Treasurer, and the Secretary. 
 The instructions to the Committee referred to the general 
 interests of the Society. Three members constitute a quorum. 
 
 Colonel Torrens gave notice of a motion with respect to honor- 
 ary members. 
 
 The Society then passed to the consideration of the 
 question respecting " the effect of taxation in a country having
 
 1 822 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 17 
 
 no Foreign trade." The question gave rise to a very interesting 
 discussion. 
 
 " The improvements which Political Economy has received 
 since the publication of ' The Wealth of Nations ' " were then 
 considered, from which the Society passed to the consideration 
 of Mr. Brown's question concerning the National Debt. 
 
 Questions for future discussion were proposed by Messrs. 
 Torrens, Lyall, and Tooke, and the Society then adjourned to 
 the first Monday in December. 
 
 December 2nd. <. 
 
 Z. MACAULAY, Chair. H. ENTWISTLE, Vice-Chair. 
 
 T. Tooke, J. L. Mallet, S. C. Holland, G. Larpent, J. Mill, 
 J. Cazenove, Chas. Prinsep, R. Mushet, G. Grote, J. S. Lefevre, 
 G. Brown, M. Simpson, W. Coulson, Colonel Torrens. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Hodgson at the invitation of Messrs. Tooke, 
 Brown, Mill and Simpson ; and Mr. Torrens at the invitation 
 of Messrs. Coulson, Torrens, Macaulay and Mallet. 
 
 The following Resolutions of the Sub-Committee were read 
 and confirmed : 
 
 i. That Messrs. Brown, Mallet, and Lyall be requested to 
 give directions to Mr. Cuff respecting the dinners, and 
 that all other arrangements be referred to the above 
 gentlemen during the season. 
 
 2. That the names of the Visitors be communicated to the 
 Secretary, and by him announced to the Society. 
 
 3. That it be suggested that the Committee of Manage- 
 ment propose the Chairman and Deputy-Chairman for 
 the day. 
 
 A letter was read from the Hon. K. DOUGLAS announcing 
 resignation. Besides the vacancy occasioned by the resignation 
 
 P. E.G. B 
 
 his 
 ion
 
 i8 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 of Mr. Douglas, the Chairman announced another vacancy by 
 the death of Mr. FORBES MITCHELL. 
 
 Mr. Lefevre proposed Lord ALTHORP, seconded by Mr. Mallet. 
 
 Some discussion took place upon " the practicability of paying 
 the National Debt," which was not brought to a close ; also on 
 " the effect of an ad valorem duty upon all commodities." 
 
 1823. January 
 
 i. How far are Rents and Profits affected by Tithes ? 
 
 H. WARBURTON. 
 
 2. On what does the demand for Labour depend ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 February yd. 
 
 i. What effect would arise under the present circum- 
 stances of the country from the Legislature passing a bill to 
 render Gold and Silver both legal tenders to any amount ? 
 
 R. MUSHET. 
 
 2. Jusqu'a quel point 1'obscurite et la complication des 
 lois civiles, les delais de la justice, et les frais de procedure, 
 sont-ils nuisibles a la production des richesses ? M. SAY. 
 
 3. Par quel moyens pourrait-on obtenir des gouverne- 
 ments, que, pendant les guerres qu'ils se font, les relations 
 pacifiques et commerciales des particuliers entr'eux, e"tant 
 dans Tinte'r^t de 1'un et de 1'autre pays, fussent continues 
 comme en temps de paix ? M. SAY. 
 
 4. What are the circumstances which determine the 
 exchangeable value of commodities ?
 
 1823 Questions 19 
 
 March $rd. 
 
 In what degree may the purchase of Gold by the Bank 
 of England since the passing of Mr. Peel's Bill be considered 
 as having enhanced the value of Gold and proportionately 
 lowered the value of commodities ? Z. MACAULAY. 
 
 What effect have the Navigation Laws produced upon 
 the political and commercial interests of Great Britain ? 
 
 G. LYALL. 
 
 April jth. 
 
 What has been the effect of the Corn Law of 1815 on the 
 prices of Grain ? W. COULSON. 
 
 What are the circumstances that determine the exchange- 
 able value of commodities ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 Can restrictions upon Importation under any circum- 
 stances be conducive to the wealth of the State ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 May <$h. 
 
 Can restrictions upon Importation under any circum- 
 stances be conducive to the wealth of a State ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 Is the value of Wages the only thing which determines 
 the rate of profit ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 Can the accumulation of Capital be so rapid as to 
 impede the progress of national wealth ? 
 
 Is Rent a constituent part of price ?
 
 2O Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 i. Granting that Profits depend upon the proportion of 
 the whole produce which goes to Labour ; what is it that 
 determines the proportion which goes to Labour ? 
 
 2. Does the depreciation of the Currency in a State 
 afford an encouragement to industry, or cause an increase 
 of production ? W. COULSON. 
 
 3. What is the effect likely to be produced in the con- 
 dition of English labourers by the competition of Irish 
 labourers ? J. MILL. 
 
 4. Can there be an increase of Riches without an increase 
 of Value ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December ist. 
 (Questions not entered.) 
 
 1824. January 5/A. 
 
 ' i. In what does the circumstance which determines 
 Exchangeable Value differ from the measure of it ? 
 
 2. What is the effect upon National Wealth of having 
 payments to make to absentees ? 
 
 February 2nd. 
 
 i. What are the marks or signs from which the advance 
 or decline of a Nation in wealth can be inferred ? 
 
 2. What is the proper signification of the word Demand 
 as applied to questions of Political Economy ? What is 
 the test of the degree of effective Demand ? What is the 
 measure of the extent of Demand ?
 
 1824 Questions 21 
 
 ist March. 
 
 i. What would be the effect of a Tax upon fanners' 
 profits ? 
 
 2. Is an Income Tax equitable to all classes of the 
 community ? Ought a Tax on Capital to be laid on all 
 species of property ? 
 
 3. What are the circumstances which occasion the 
 greater or less propensity to accumulation in different 
 countries ? 
 
 $th April. 
 
 i. In the case of a Currency consisting of inconvertible 
 paper, are the prices of bullion and the Foreign exchanges 
 to be considered as under all circumstances indicative of 
 variations in the value of the Currency ? Or if it be assumed 
 that variations in the price of bullion or in the Foreign 
 exchanges may take place without any corresponding altera- 
 tions of the value of the Currency, what are the tests by 
 which it can be determined that, notwithstanding such 
 variations in the price of bullion and in the exchanges, the 
 value of the Currency has remained constant ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 2. What is the reason why the labourer absorbs a larger 
 proportion of what is produced than he did ten or twelve 
 years ago ? J. CAZENOVE. 
 
 3. Might not the term Demand be excluded with advan- 
 tage from the Science of Political Economy ? 
 
 T. TOOKE and C. R. PRINSEP, conjointly.
 
 22 Political Economy Club 1824 
 
 yd May. 
 
 i. What is the best mode of determining the value of 
 the Precious Metals in different countries ? 
 
 2. What is the distinction between productive and 
 unproductive Labour ? 
 
 June jth. 
 
 i. Would the proprietors of estates in the West Indies 
 sustain any pecuniary loss by the enfranchisement of their 
 Negro Slaves ? G. GROTE. 
 
 2. Is it true in point of fact, that when no Rent is paid 
 the whole produce is divided between wages and profits ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 3. What is the meaning of the term Profit ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 4. What is the meaning of the term Wages ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 I. Ought Circulating Capital to be estimated by the 
 numerical quantity of the commodities composing it, or by 
 the quantity of labour which those commodities will main- 
 tain ? J. CAZENOVE. 
 
 2. While the raw produce of Scotland is freely admitted 
 into the English market, are Tithes a tax upon the rents of 
 land, or do they fall upon the consumer ? R. SIMPSON.
 
 1825 Questions 23 
 
 1825. January loth. 
 
 i. Are there any, and, if any, what disadvantages 
 attending Partnerships en commandite in other words, 
 Joint Stock Companies ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 2. Are Wages a portion of Capital ? Col. TORRENS. 
 
 3. Ought the competition of Foreign with native 
 labourers to be allowed ; and, if allowed, should it be with 
 or without restriction ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 February yth. 
 
 i. Are Wages a portion of Capital ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 2. Ought the competition of Foreign with native 
 labourers to be allowed, and, if allowed, should it be with 
 or without restriction ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 3. Would the exportation of any Raw Material ex- 
 clusively possessed by this country be under any circum- 
 stances disadvantageous ? Lord ALTHORP. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 (a) Would the influx of Foreign labourers tend to in- 
 crease the aggregate produce of the country ? 
 
 (b) Granting that the aggregate produce would be 
 increased by such influx, would it be increased in the same 
 ratio with the number of labourers ? 
 
 (c) Supposing that the aggregate produce would be 
 ncreased, but in a less ratio with the number of labourers,
 
 24 Political Economy Club 1825 
 
 would the command over the comforts of life of the labourers 
 be diminished either permanently or temporarily ? 
 
 (d) Supposing they would be diminished, is there any 
 accompanying circumstance to compensate for that evil ? 
 
 (e) Supposing there to be no compensating circumstance, 
 ought Government to prevent such an influx of Foreign 
 labourers ; and, if it ought, what, if any, disadvantages 
 would result from its interference ? 
 
 In what respect does the effect of the introduction of 
 Foreign labourers on the rate of wages differ from the effect 
 of the substitution of the labour of horses and other cattle 
 for human labour, and in what respect from machinery ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 April nth. 
 
 i. What measures might be adopted for retarding the 
 Increase of Population in Ireland ? Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 2. What measures are most fit for improving the con- 
 dition of the people in Ireland ? Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 3. Whether the Capital loaned from this country at the 
 present time to the New States of South America is likely 
 to be beneficial to the country ? S. C. HOLLAND. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 i. Has the French law of Inheritance a tendency in- 
 jurious to the accumulation of Wealth ? J. L. MALLET. 
 
 2. Suppose the Succession to Property in any country 
 is not regulated by any positive law, but that the succession
 
 1825 Questions 25 
 
 to landed property is regulated by the custom of Primo- 
 geniture : whether is that a good custom or not ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 3. (a) Is the rate of Interest a correct index of the rate 
 of Profit ? 
 
 (b) Is the rate of Profit, as indicated by the rate of Interest 
 any criterion of the rate of accumulation of national capital ? 
 
 (c) When it is said that the rate of Profit depends upon 
 wages, is the term Wages confined to the necessaries of the 
 most common labourers, or does it include the higher re- 
 muneration for the various gradations of skilled labour ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 June 6th, 
 
 i. Into what component parts may the return to Capital 
 be divided ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 2. Has not the term " Rate of Profit," as applied to 
 particular portions of Capital, a very different meaning 
 from " Profit " when applied generally in a national point 
 of view ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 3. Suppose an Income-tax could be fairly assessed, 
 would it be expedient to repeal all taxes on luxuries ? 
 
 J. R. MCCULLOCH. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 i. What would be the practical effects of measuring 
 Prices, and the rate of Profits on a medium which was 
 subject to frequent and considerable variations in its relation 
 to Labour ? Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 2. What do we refer to when we say a commodity is 
 steady in its Value ? Rev. T. R. MALTHUS.
 
 26 Political Economy Club 1826 
 
 1826. January gth. 
 
 i. Would it be convenient to define Capital to be " All 
 that portion of the produce of industry and frugality which 
 is not actually in the hands of those by whom it will be 
 unproductively consumed," or " All that portion of the 
 produce of industry and frugality which is consumed repro- 
 ductively ; " or is there any other more convenient definition ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 2. Is it necessary or expedient to limit by law the number 
 of Hackney Coaches, or to fix their rates ? A. PREVOST. 
 
 3. Would a Currency on the system proposed by Mr. 
 Ricardo, to consist exclusively of Paper, subject to the 
 check of Bullion-payments, be preferable to the system 
 now in force by Mr. Peel's Bill ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 i. In what respect do the Credit Balances of London 
 bankers differ from the Circulating Notes of Country bankers, 
 or are they essentially the same ? R. SIMPSON. 
 
 2. Has England derived any profit or advantage from 
 the use of a Paper Currency ? R. MUSHET. 
 
 February 6th. 
 
 Would a Currency on the system proposed by Mr. Ricardo, 
 to consist exclusively of Paper, subject to the check of 
 Bullion-payments, be preferable to the system now in force 
 by Mr. Peel's Bill ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 i. What decides what shall be the least productive mine 
 of Gold or Silver that shall be worked ? N. W. SENIOR.
 
 1826 Questions 27 
 
 2. Might not a proper Currency be secured by leaving 
 the business of Banking wholly free from all Legislative 
 interference ? Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 6th March. 
 
 i. What would be the effect on the Wealth and Capital 
 of a country of an increasing taste for menial servants and 
 attendants compared with material products foreign and 
 domestic ? Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 2. What would be the effect of the abolition of all pro- 
 tective duties and bounties on Colonial produce as it 
 respects 
 
 (1) The general prosperity of Commerce ? 
 
 (2) The interests of Colonial proprietors ? 
 
 (3) The comfort and improvement of the Colonial slave ? 
 
 Z. MACAULAY. 
 
 April yd. 
 
 i. To what extent would the Rent of Land in money 
 and in commodities be affected by a Free Trade in Corn, 
 and for how long ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 2. In what respect do the Credit Balances of London 
 bankers differ from the Circulating Notes of Country bankers, 
 or are they essentially the same ? R. SIMPSON. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 Suppose the Mint is shut ; that the Paper of the Country 
 Banks is made convertible into that of the Bank of England, 
 and the latter into Gold bars ; would it not follow under 
 these circumstances, in the event of the Bank generally
 
 28 Political Economy Club 1826 
 
 maintaining the value of her Paper from three to four or 
 five per cent, above the value of Gold, that the country 
 would be less exposed to inconvenience from sudden varia- 
 tions in the supply and value of money, than if the currency 
 consisted wholly of Gold and Silver, or partly of those 
 metals and partly of Paper ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 In what respect would a Tax on Wages differ from an 
 ad valorem Tax on all commodities in its effects on general 
 prices ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 Has England derived any Profit or advantage from the 
 use of a Paper Currency ? R. MUSHET. 
 
 1827. January 8th. 
 
 i. What decides what shall be the least productive mine 
 of Gold and Silver that shall be worked ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 2. Would a free importation of Corn have the effect of 
 lowering the average price, measured in Gold, of other 
 commodities as well as of Corn ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 February $th. 
 
 i. Would a free importation of Corn have the effect of 
 lowering the average price, measured in Gold, of other 
 commodities as well as Corn ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 2. Might not a proper Currency be secured by leaving 
 the business of banking wholly free from all Legislative 
 interference ? Sir H. PARNELL.
 
 1827 Questions 29 
 
 March $th. 
 
 i. Is it proper to extend the signification of the term 
 Labour to fermentation and vegetation ? 
 
 2. What is the precise meaning of the term Proportional 
 
 Wages ? 
 
 3. When it is stated that Value consists of Labour and 
 Profit, would it not lead to a more clear and distinct per- 
 ception of the proposition to define Value, Labour, and 
 Profit, and to substitute the definitions for the terms ? 
 
 4. What is the best system of Currency for a com- 
 mercial country ? 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 i. In what proportion does an increase in the value of 
 Agricultural Produce increase the value of Agricultural 
 Capital ? 
 
 2. (Adjourned in consequence of Mr. Warburton's 
 absence.) 
 
 3. Does a Paper money, payable on demand in the 
 precious metals, increase the nominal price of commodities 
 in a country where it exists ? 
 
 May jlh. 
 
 i. Would any inconvenience arise to the public gener- 
 ally from opening the Mint for the coinage of Silver at the 
 price of 55. 2d. per ounce the legal tender being limited to 
 405. ? R. MUSHET. 
 
 2. Would the principle of the French currency, that is, 
 that silver being the legal tender, and gold the money of
 
 30 Political Economy Club 1827 
 
 convention, be a better system of Currency for England 
 than the present, which fixes upon gold as the exclusive 
 legal tender ? R. MUSHET. 
 
 June 4/A. 
 
 Under a system of Free Trade, to what extent would an 
 Importation of Corn cause an Exportation of Gold and a 
 fall in prices ? R. MUSHET. 
 
 December yd. 
 (Finances of the Club considered). 
 
 1828. January iqth. 
 
 Would it be proper to adopt the following Definitions in 
 order to establish a conventional and understood nomen- 
 clature in the Club ? 
 
 (1) Wealth Material articles possessing utility and 
 
 existing in scarcity. 
 
 (2) Value The general power of purchasing. 
 
 (3) Labour, human Muscular exertion employed for 
 
 the purpose of obtaining material articles of desire. 
 
 (4) Wages The articles of wealth given to the labourer 
 
 for his labour. 
 
 (5) Rise of Wages Increase of the quantity of articles 
 
 given to the labourer. 
 
 (6) Fall of Wages Diminution of the quantity of 
 
 articles given to the labourer. 
 
 (7) Capital Articles of wealth destined to the pro- 
 
 duction of other wealth. 
 
 (8) Profit The surplus which remains with the 
 
 capitalist after the complete replacement of 
 expenditure. Colonel TORRENS.
 
 1828 Questions 31 
 
 (1) Wealth Objects calculated for use or enjoyment, 
 
 and existing in limited supply. 
 
 (2) Value The power of purchasing. 
 
 (7) Capital Articles of wealth destined to the pro- 
 duction or distribution of wealth. 
 
 February ^th. 
 
 Land Fixed capital and Circulating capital. 
 What would be the effect of the doing away with the 
 buying and selling on Credit ? 
 
 March yd. 
 
 How is the new Corn Bill likely to operate on prices, and 
 on the general interests of the community ? 
 
 Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 Human exertion employed for obtaining articles calcu- 
 lated for use and enjoyment, and existing in limited supply. 
 
 March 
 
 Do the circumstances of the Country give reason to expect 
 that the existing Taxes will be more productive or less 
 productive of Revenue than they were in 1827 ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 What effect would a diminution of Taxation have upon 
 the profits of Capital ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 May $th. 
 
 1. What effect would a diminution of Taxation have 
 upon the profits of Capital ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 2. Should any, and if any, what measures be adopted 
 for the extinction of the National Debt ?
 
 32 Political Economy Club 1828 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 What are the circumstances which determine the differ- 
 ences in the value of Money in different countries, and how 
 are these differences in value to be estimated ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Should not direct Taxation be preferred to indirect 
 Taxation ? G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 1829. January I2th. 
 
 What are the circumstances most conducive to the rapid 
 success of a Colony ? 
 
 February 2nd. 
 
 Has the imposition of Taxes on the importation of Foreign 
 Commodities, except the precious metals, a tendency to 
 raise General Prices in a country which does not produce 
 those metals ? 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 i. What system of measures would, under existing cir- 
 cumstances, most contribute to the accumulation of National 
 Capital ? Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 2. In forming an estimate of the Income of a country, 
 ought the Wages or Earnings of professional persons, such 
 as Lawyers, Physicians, Actors, &c., to form a separate 
 item in that estimate ; or ought they to be omitted, on the 
 ground that they are included in the Income of the other 
 Classes ? J. R. MCCULLOCH.
 
 1829 Questions 33 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 i. Are the advantages which Great Britain derives in 
 Wealth and Military Power from the possession of her 
 Colonies equivalent to the Expenses caused by them ? 
 
 Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 2. Did the Poor Laws of England in the interval between 
 1600 and 1795 occasion an increase or diminution of the 
 population ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 May qth. 
 
 i. If all legal obstacles were removed, would it be for 
 the public advantage that more than one Banking Com- 
 pany, for the issue of Notes payable on demand, should be 
 established in London ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 2. Are the practical difficulties opposed to the measure 
 of substituting one single Property Tax in lieu of all other 
 taxes whatever, sufficient to render its introduction inex- 
 pedient ? G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 June ist. 
 What are the causes of the present Depression of Trade ? 
 
 December jth. 
 
 i. Can the value of Money in any two countries differ 
 more than is expressed by the Exchange ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 2. Would a large Sinking Fund, consisting of a surplus 
 of the Revenue of the State over its expenditure, have any 
 tendency to raise the value of the Currency and depress 
 general prices ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 P.E.C. C
 
 34 Political Economy Club 1830 
 
 1830. January qkh. 
 
 How is Currency to be distinguished from Capital, and 
 what are the peculiar characteristics of each ? 
 
 J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 February is/. 
 
 What would be the effect of allowing Two Metals to be 
 Legal Tender to any extent ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 i. What would be the advantage to Great Britain of 
 opening the China trade ? W. WHITMORE. 
 
 2. Is it practicable to substitute new Taxes instead of 
 any of the existing Taxes, which would have the effect of 
 promoting Industry, putting down Smuggling, and assist- 
 ing to provide the expenses of future Wars without loans ? 
 
 Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 April 5//z. 
 
 Whether the cost of production of Gold and Silver, 
 relatively to that of all other commodities, has not in- 
 creased ; and if such be the case, would it not be advisable 
 to reduce the standard in the United Kingdom ? 
 
 C. P. THOMSON. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Would the extinction of the National Debt, if it were 
 easily practicable, be desirable ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 May 2jth. 
 
 i. Have Tithes any effect upon the production of Corn, 
 and upon its price to the consumer ? J. CAZENOVE.
 
 1830 Questions 35 
 
 2. Is it desirable, supposing it were practicable, that 
 the Bank of England and the other Banking establishments 
 should allow Interest on deposits ; and supposing it desir- 
 able, are there any obstacles not easily removable to hinder 
 Interest from being allowed ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 June 2^th. 
 
 1. Has the rate of Profit diminished since the Peace ; 
 and if so, what are the causes of diminution ? 
 
 G. LYALL 
 
 2. Did the circulation of the Small Notes of the Country 
 Bankers promote useful industry ? W. COULSON. 
 
 1831. January 
 
 1. What are the causes of the present distress and dis- 
 content among Agricultural Labourers ; and would a com- 
 pulsory Rate of Wages, a reduction of Tithes and Taxes, 
 or what other measure tend to remove the evils ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 2. What improvements have been effected in the science 
 of Political Economy since the publication of Mr. Ricardo's 
 great work ; and are any of the principles first advanced in 
 that work now acknowledged to be correct ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 February yd. 
 
 i. What were the facts which proved the existence of 
 distress in Agriculture, Manufactures, and Foreign Com- 
 merce in the Spring of 1830 ? 
 
 Sir H. PARNELL.
 
 36 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 2. Are there any circumstances in which Machinery, in 
 competition with Manual Labour, can be injurious to the 
 Labouring class ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 March yd, 
 
 Are there any circumstances in which Machinery, in 
 competition with Manual Labour, can be detrimental to 
 the Labouring class ? J. R. PENNINGTON. 
 
 Does a special rise in the money Price of one commodity 
 diminish the money Price of other commodities ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 Ought the Truck system to be abolished by law ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 April i^th. 
 
 What improvements have been effected in the Science of 
 Political Economy since the publication of Mr. Ricardo's 
 great work ; and are any of the principles first advanced in 
 that work now acknowledged to be correct ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 May ^th. 
 
 i. Would a Remission of Taxation occasion an immediate 
 fall of wages ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 2. Admitting a certain amount of indirect Taxes to be 
 necessary, what are the description of articles which form 
 the least objectionable articles of Taxation ? 
 
 T. TOOKE.
 
 1831 Questions 37 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 i. Has the rate of Profit diminished since the Peace ; 
 and if so, what are the causes of the diminution ? 
 
 G. LYALL. 
 
 2. Would it be practicable and advantageous to form a 
 Society on an extended scale for the improvement and 
 diffusion of Political Economy ; and how should it be set 
 about ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 June y>th. 
 
 Are there any, and what, exceptions to the benefits of 
 Free Trade ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 What effect have the Navigation Laws had upon the 
 shipping and commerce of this country ; and is their con- 
 tinuance essential to the maintenance of its maritime 
 ascendency. G. LYALL. 
 
 December 8th. 
 
 i. A gentleman has three sons, A, B, and C, to whom 
 he gives the same general education. He then gives A 
 5,000, by which he establishes himself in business as a 
 haberdasher ; he then buys a farm for B, for which he 
 pays 5,000 ; and he expends 5,000 in educating C for 
 the Bar, and in supporting him at it till he is able to support 
 himself : How should these persons be taxed so that each 
 may contribute to the Revenue precisely in proportion to 
 his ability ? 
 
 2. Keeping the data in the foregoing question in view, 
 would it not be grossly unjust to tax the property or income 
 of B without at the same time taxing the property or income 
 of A and C ?
 
 38 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 3. On what principle ought the incomes of professional 
 men, as compared with those of landlords and capitalists, 
 to be taxed so that that class may be assessed in proportion 
 to its ability ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 1832. January igth. 
 
 If an alteration is to be made in the existing Corn Laws, 
 would it be advisable to impose any Duty on Corn ? And 
 if any, should that duty be imposed for the purpose of 
 obtaining Revenue, or for that of countervailing the specific 
 burdens on Agriculture ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 Are there any, and if any, what Limitations to the advan- 
 tages of a Free Trade in Corn ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 February 2nd. 
 
 What effect have the Navigation Laws had upon the 
 Shipping and Commerce of this country, and is their con- 
 tinuance essential to the maintenance of its maritime 
 ascendency ? G. LYALL. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 Is it expedient to continue the regulation which prevents 
 a London Banking Company from issuing Notes if it con- 
 sists of more than six partners ? Sir H. PARNELL. 
 
 April 5/A. 
 
 I. Are there any, and if any, what Limitations to the 
 advantages of a Free Trade in Corn ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 2. Have Wages fallen in money value in proportion to 
 the money price of commodities ; and if not, how is the 
 difference to be accounted for ? T. TOOKE.
 
 1832 Questions 39 
 
 May 3rd. 
 
 i. Is it expedient that the Government of this country 
 should retain in its own hands the exclusive power of issuing 
 Paper in lieu of Coin ? And, if not, under what limitations 
 should it concede such power to any other body or bodies ? 
 
 S. J. LOYD. 
 
 2. Would not the establishment of a National Bank for 
 the issue of Notes be advantageous to the country ? 
 
 M. RICARDO. 
 June jth. 
 
 Discussions of May 3rd continued. 
 
 July 5th. 
 Discussions of May 3rd continued. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 i. Would it be advisable to vest in Government officers 
 the collection and distribution of the fund for the relief of 
 the Poor, leaving the assessment of that fund to the parochial 
 authorities ? 
 
 2. Would it be advisable to vest also the assessment of 
 that fund in Government officers, leaving it still a parochial 
 charge ? 
 
 3. Would it be advisable to make that fund a country, 
 district, or national charge ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 1833. February jth. 
 
 Have Wages fallen in money value in proportion to the 
 money price of other commodities ; and if not, how is the 
 difference ? T. TOOKE.
 
 40 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Suppose two countries similar in extent, fertility, climate, 
 government, and civilisation, but one to have been from 
 time immemorial subject to Tithes, the other Tithe free : 
 would these countries differ as to rent of land, the density 
 of population, the price of raw produce, or the price of 
 manufactures ? first, supposing them not to have a free 
 intercourse with other countries ; second, supposing them 
 to have such an intercourse. And what would be the 
 effects in them respectively as to these points : first, to the 
 imposition ; and second, of the removal of tithes. 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 April $th. 
 
 Would the removal, either sudden or gradual, of the 
 restrictions on the Importation of Corn be beneficial to the 
 class of Farmers ? W. COULSON. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Would such a reduction of existing taxes as would effec- 
 tually repress Smuggling, be attended with any diminution 
 of the aggregate revenue of the country. 
 
 J. R. McCULLOCH. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 Have combinations which keep up the rate of Wages of 
 Workmen the effect of distributing among the working 
 classes a greater aggregate amount than if the competition 
 were perfectly free ?
 
 1 833 Questions 41 
 
 July qth. 
 
 Is legislative interference, in behalf of Children employed 
 in Factories, consistent with sound policy ; and if so, under 
 what modifications ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 What would be the effect of establishing Poor Laws in 
 Ireland ? Lord MONTEAGLE. 
 
 1834. January gth. 
 
 February 6th. 
 
 Does that part of the Poor Law which relates to Settle- 
 ments admit of improvement ? J. W. COWELL. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Do the low prices of Exportable Commodities, as far as 
 they are independent of improvements in the processes of 
 production, arise from Foreign or Domestic competition ? 
 
 Is there any valid apology for the American Tariff ? 
 
 Rev. T. R. MALTHUS. 
 
 April loth. 
 
 Is a compulsory provision for the Able-bodied Poor a 
 beneficial provision ; and if so, by what principles ought it 
 to be regulated ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 In what cases, and under what circumstances, do duties 
 upon Imported commodities fall upon the Consumer ; and 
 in what cases, and under what circumstances, upon the 
 foreign produce ? J. PENNINGTON.
 
 42 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 Instead of instituting Courts for facilitating the recovery 
 of Small Debts, would it not be better to place them beyond 
 the pale of the law ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 June 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Do Tithes form a justifiable ground for a countervailing 
 duty on Foreign Corn ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 Is it expedient that Government should concentrate 
 Labour in a New Colony by laying a price on Land ? 
 
 G. LARPENT. 
 
 December ^th. 
 
 With what limitations is the information derived from 
 Statistical Tables, and from what are called facts, to be 
 received in the study of Political Economy ? 
 
 Under what circumstances does, or will, the remission of 
 the House-Tax fall to the Tenant, and under what to the 
 Landlord ? 
 
 1835. February $th. 
 
 Is the difference between the Market and Mint price of 
 Gold to be taken, in all cases, as a proof of the depreciation 
 of the Currency, and a measure of the extent of it ? 
 
 S. J. LOYD. 
 
 What would be the effect on the wealth of Great Britain 
 if all the principal Landholders and principal Stockholders 
 were to devote all their revenues, beyond their own sub- 
 sistence, to Productive purposes ? N. W. SENIOR.
 
 1 835 Questions 43 
 
 In the absence of disturbing causes, is it more likely that 
 in a given country Population will increase more rapidly 
 than Subsistence, or Subsistence more rapidly than Popu- 
 lation, and would either supposition be conveniently ex- 
 pressed by the word " tendency " ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 March ^lh. 
 
 Ought a compulsory provision against Destitution to exist 
 wherever there is exclusive property in Land ? 
 
 J. D. HUME. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 Is the difference between the Market and Mint price of 
 Gold to be taken, in all cases, as a proof of the depreciation 
 of the Currency, and a measure of the extent of it ? 
 
 S. J. LOYD. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 Are there any circumstances to be conceived, in the 
 situation of Great Britain, to render a Free Trade with 
 France otherwise than beneficial to both countries ? 
 
 G. LARPENT. 
 
 What is the essential difference between a Bank of Circu- 
 lation and a Bank of Deposit ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 June 4/A. 
 
 Would the maintenance of a Sinking Fund of five millions, 
 as proposed in 1819, to the present time, have been a policy 
 preferable to that which has since prevailed, of applying all 
 surplus revenue to a reduction of taxes ? 
 
 T. TOOKE.
 
 44 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 What are the limits within which the science of Political 
 Economy is most conveniently confined ? 
 
 August 6th. 
 
 Is there any sufficient number of well-authenticated facts 
 so far disproving the principle of the Essay on Population, 
 as to show that Population has not an uniform tendency to 
 increase faster than the means of subsistence ; and that 
 circumstances opposed to the impulse of the natural in- 
 clinations of mankind gain strength with the advance of 
 wealth and civilisation ? 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Would a diminution in the price of Wine and of other 
 Foreign Luxuries cause an increased cultivation, or an 
 increased importation of food, and thereby enable this 
 country to maintain and employ an increased quantity of 
 productive labour ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 Is it rightly said, as stated by Mr. Ricardo, that " com- 
 modities measure money, as money measures commodities ; " 
 and, if so, is not a high price of commodities as well as a 
 high price of gold, in a local currency, necessary to complete 
 the proof of depreciation ? J. D. HUME. 
 
 1836. February ^th. 
 
 Under what circumstances is the Absenteeism of Landed 
 Proprietors detrimental to the wealth of a country ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR
 
 1836 Questions 45 
 
 Are not the Agriculturists more heavily taxed than any 
 other class of the community ; and if so, ought not the 
 circumstance to be attended to in legislating with regard to 
 the Corn trade ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 In the present condition of this country, is it expedient 
 to encourage the Prudential checks upon the increase of 
 Population, with the view of mitigating the effects of the 
 natural checks ? S. "J. LOYD. 
 
 April 2 is/. 
 
 Are not the Agriculturists more heavily taxed than any 
 other class of the community ; and, if so, ought not the 
 circumstance to be attended to in legislating with regard to 
 the Corn trade ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 May 5th. 
 
 Does the excess of the Poor rates and the County rates 
 borne by the Land, compared with other property, justify 
 the imposition of a countervailing duty on Foreign Corn ; 
 and, if so, to what extent ? 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 Is it expedient to introduce the principle of Commandite 
 Partnership into the commercial code of this country ? 
 
 S. J. LOYD. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Is it desirable that Railroads should be made a strict 
 monopoly for a fixed number of years ?
 
 46 Political Economy Club 1836 
 
 December ist. 
 
 What are the causes and probable consequences of the 
 present Pressure on the Money Market ? 
 
 J. D. HUME. 
 
 1837. February 2nd. 
 
 Ought the new Poor Law Bill to authorise any, and what, 
 outdoor relief ; and ought it to give any, and what, legal 
 claim to the applicant ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Is the interest of the Issuers a sufficient Security for the 
 due regulation of a Convertible Paper Currency ? 
 
 Would there be any advantage in confining the issue of 
 Paper Currency to a Single Establishment ? And, if so, 
 ought that establishment to be a Government Establish- 
 ment ? 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 What is the appropriate term for that Agent of Pro- 
 duction which bears the same relation to Profit that Labour 
 does to Wages ? 
 
 May 4ih. 
 
 What have been the effects of the Factory Regulation 
 Act ; and should any, and what, alterations be made in it ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 To what extent should Emigration from Ireland be carried 
 in order to dispauperise that country, and aid the intro-
 
 1 837 Questions 47 
 
 duction of Poor Laws ; and from what sources should the 
 expense of such emigration be defrayed ? 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 To what cause is the present derangement of Credit in 
 the trade between Great Britain and the United States of 
 America to be attributed ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of Rent ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 On what does the increase in the value of certain articles 
 which accrues during the Lapse of Time, and is independent 
 of the application of either Capital or Labour, or of any 
 monopolised appropriation of natural Agents, depend ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 1838. February ist. 
 
 What are the principles which should govern the inter- 
 ference of the Legislature with the constitution of Joint 
 Stock Banks ? WILLIAM CLAY. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 In what manner are the Savings of individuals conducive 
 to the increase of National Wealth ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 April $th. 
 
 Is there any adequate reason for authorising or permitting 
 the issue of Paper Currency, not representing actual Deposits 
 of coin or of the precious metals ? W. COULSON.
 
 48 Political Economy Club 1838 
 
 May 5//L 
 
 Is it expedient to adopt an exclusive Silver currency, or 
 a double currency of Silver and Gold, each being a legal 
 tender to any amount ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 June jth. 
 
 Is it expedient in any way to extend the present privileges 
 of Literary property ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 July 5/A. 
 
 Is it expedient that the Legislature should in any, and 
 what cases, interfere, in contracts between the Employer 
 and Labourer, to regulate the hours and mode of labour ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 What is the natural limit to the Accumulation of Capital ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 What are the principal additions made by Mr. Ricardo 
 to the science of Political Economy ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 1839. February jth. 
 
 To what extent is it probable that Foreign Competition 
 will interfere with the progress of manufacturing industry 
 in this country ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 \ 
 February i8th. 
 
 Are there any sufficient reasons for any duty on Foreign 
 Corn ? J. D. HUME.
 
 1839 Questions 49 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Are there any good grounds for thinking that either the 
 Wealth or Power of Great Britain would be at all impaired 
 by Canada becoming independent, or being incorporated 
 with the United States ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Are there any good grounds for thinking that the proposed 
 plan for conveying Letters by Post under stamped envelopes 
 could be advantageously carried into effect ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 What meaning is to be attributed to the proposition of 
 Adam Smith, that Capital employed in the Foreign Trade 
 " gives but one-half the encouragement to the industry, or 
 productive labour of the Country," which is given by Capital 
 employed in the Home Trade ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 July 4th. 
 
 In what mode is it most advantageous that the expenses 
 of a Church Establishment and public Education should be 
 defrayed in New Colonies for example, by Grants from 
 the general revenue of the Settlement, by reserved lands, 
 or by Corn rents ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 What have been the effects on the production and dis- 
 tribution of wealth, of the Observance of a Seventh day ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 What general principles should be adopted relatively to 
 the employment of Paupers, Soldiers, and Prisoners in pro- 
 ductive labour ? H. MERIVALE.
 
 50 Political Economy Club 1840 
 
 1840. February 6th. 
 
 What would be the effect produced upon Wages, if the 
 rich should adopt the practice of expending a large portion 
 of their income on menial servants and retainers, and a 
 smaller portion in the purchase of Commodities ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 What is the connection between the price of Provisions 
 and the price of Labour ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 What new taxes ought to be imposed, or what changes 
 made in the existing taxes, if the state of the Finances 
 render it necessary to Increase the public income ? 
 
 J. L. PREVOST. 
 
 May 7//;. 
 
 What are the principal advantages and disadvantages of 
 the plans for collecting the Land revenue of India, known 
 by the name of the Perpetual or Zemindary system, and 
 the Ryotwar system ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 June 4/A. 
 
 Was the Specie Circular of the American Government in 
 1836 a wise measure ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 Is not the proposition, that " Prices depend on the quan- 
 tity of Currency," untrue, except upon suppositions that 
 deprive it of all practical utility ? G. GRAHAM.
 
 1840 Questions 51 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Do Profits depend in any degree, and if in any, how much, 
 on the fact of Commodities being usually sold or exchanged 
 for others before being consumed ? J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 1841. February qth. 
 
 Would it be practicable for the Bank of England to act 
 upon the principle of issuing a fixed amount of Paper upon 
 Securities, and a fluctuating amount upon Bullion, while at 
 the same time the Country Banks of issue increased their 
 portion of the general circulation of the Country without 
 reference to the Exchanges ? Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 March qth. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of the word 
 " Demand " ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 What would be the effect upon General Prices, and upon 
 the wages of Labour, of such an increase of the prices of 
 production in Foreign Countries, as would cause the produce 
 of a given quantity of British labour to exchange for a 
 less quantity of Gold, than that for which the produce of 
 the same quantity of Foreign labour would exchange ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Does the value of Gold and Silver depend in any, and, if 
 in any, on what principle, different from those which govern 
 the value of the other metals ? N. W. SENIOR.
 
 52 Political Economy Club 1841 
 
 According to what principle is the benefit of the Trade 
 between two nations shared between those two nations ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 Is there any rational ground for supposing that the 
 efforts to improve and civilise Central Africa will ever have 
 any considerable result, or defray the expense and loss of 
 life occasioned in carrying them on ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Is the opinion of Adam Smith well founded (as expressed 
 in book v. chap, i., put forth by the Education Committee 
 of the Privy Council, in their pamphlet on the recent measures 
 for the promotion of Education in England, page 14), that 
 in the progress of the Division of Labour, the dexterity of 
 the workman, in any particular trade, must be acquired " at 
 the expense of his intellectual, social, and martial virtues " ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 1842. February 
 
 Would a reduction of the Import Duties upon the produce 
 of Foreign countries, if unaccompanied by an equivalent 
 reduction upon British Goods in Foreign ports, have the 
 effect of altering the distribution of the precious metals to 
 the disadvantage of this country, and of causing the produce 
 of a given quantity of British labour to exchange for the 
 produce of a less quantity of Foreign labour ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS.
 
 1842 Questions 53 
 
 March yd. 
 
 What would be the probable average price of Wheat in 
 this country in the event of the Repeal of the Corn Laws 
 and the adoption of entire Free Trade, as applicable to the 
 whole of our commercial policy ? W. WHITMORE. 
 
 April jth. 
 
 Does the present state of British finances afford a sufficient 
 justification for the imposition of an Income Tax ; and if 
 so, on what principle should it be imposed ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 May $th. 
 
 Which is best ? a tax upon Property, upon Income, or 
 upon Expenditure ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 To what extent has any country the power of making 
 another independent country pay a portion of its Taxes ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 By what principle of management can the Railroad 
 system be rendered most conducive to the increase of 
 national wealth ; by leaving it to the free competition of 
 individuals, or by placing it under the exclusive control 
 of the Government ? C. BULLER. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Would it be a wise policy for any country, on the 
 supposition of its having the power of making another
 
 54 Political Economy Club 1842 
 
 independent country contribute to its taxes, to attempt 
 to exercise such power, by levying duties on Exports or 
 Imports with that view ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 1843. February 2nd. 
 
 Is not the exportation of British Capital a cause, and 
 almost a necessary condition, of its continued increase at 
 home ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Does an increase of demand in this country for Foreign 
 Commodities, unaccompanied by a corresponding increase 
 of demand for our own commodities abroad, render the terms 
 or conditions of exchange between this and other countries 
 less advantageous to us, without reference to any alteration 
 in the distribution of the Precious Metals ? W. COULSON. 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 If an increase of demand in this country for Foreign 
 Commodities, unaccompanied by a corresponding increase 
 of demand for our commodities abroad, render the terms or 
 conditions of exchange between this and other countries less 
 advantageous to us, is it expedient on that account to lessen 
 the demand for foreign commodities by legislative measures ? 
 
 W. COULSON. 
 
 May 4th. 
 
 What determines the extent to which a duty imposed on 
 an article of Raw produce, partly produced at home, and 
 partly imported, raises prices ? N. W. SENIOR.
 
 1843 Questions 55 
 
 June ist. 
 
 In a treatise on Political Economy, is it more convenient 
 to treat Rent as a separate source of revenue, or as the 
 effect of disturbing causes ? 
 
 The ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN. 
 
 Is Political Economy a Science a priori, or what is com- 
 monly called a science of facts ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Is an extraordinary extension of Manufacturing industry 
 in any particular country likely to conduce to the ultimate 
 well-being and happiness of the bulk of its population ? 
 
 J. R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 In the case of articles produced partly in our Colonies 
 and partly in Foreign Countries, but none at home, ought 
 there to be any difference of duty, and, if so, to what extent, 
 in favour of our Colonies ? Sir G. LARPENT. 
 
 1844. February ist. 
 
 Are Differential duties on Foreign productions, when 
 imported into the United Kingdom, necessary in any case, 
 and, if in any case, on what Articles ; and to what extent 
 should they be carried ? J- R. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Is it possible, under any given state of Agriculture, that 
 a reduction of Corn rents should take place, without throw- 
 ing out the last qualities of land resorted to, and the last
 
 56 Political Economy Club 1844 
 
 portions of capital applied to the soil : and is it possible, 
 under the supposition that Corn rents remain undiminished, 
 that a reduction of Money rents should take place without 
 causing a general fall in the prices of domestic productions, 
 accompanied by a decline of money wages ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 April ^th. 
 
 Is Legislative interference between the Master and the 
 Adult Labourer, to regulate the hours of work, expedient ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Assuming that more or less evil must attend any marked 
 alteration in the value of the standard of the Currency, is 
 it clear that the evils of a tendency to an Increase of value, 
 outweigh those of a tendency to a Diminution of value ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 With a Circulating medium constituted like that of 
 England, is the regulation of the Paper portion of that 
 medium a public function, requiring to be guarded by 
 responsibility, and conducted according to rules prescribed 
 by law ? and, if so, to what extent ? Or is the interest of 
 the Issuers, when carrying on their business on correct 
 principles, a sufficient protection to the public ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 July 4th. 
 
 Can any, and what, operations of Banks increase or 
 decrease the amount of Currency in the hands of the public,
 
 1844 Questions 57 
 
 when it consists partly of Gold and partly of convertible 
 Paper, which would not do so if it were entirely Metallic ? 
 
 G. GRAHAM. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 Was Ricardo correct in stating that " the same rule which 
 regulates the relative value of Commodities in one country, 
 does not regulate the relative value of the Commodities 
 exchanged between two or more countries ? " 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 1845. February 6th. 
 
 Is Indirect preferable to Direct taxation ? and, if so, are 
 we arrived at, or near, the limits of the former ? 
 
 Sir G. LARPENT 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Does Taxation on the Commodities consumed by the 
 labourer, raise Wages under any, and what, circumstances ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 April yd. 
 
 Under what conditions, and to what extent, ought Govern- 
 ments to exercise a directing or regulating power over the 
 operations of Private industry ; and in connection with it ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 Are there any, and what, limits to the principle, that the 
 Physical wants of the Community are best supplied by the 
 agency of Competition ? Sir W. CLAY.
 
 58 Political Economy Club 1845 
 
 May ist. 
 
 Is it desirable to encourage the system of Allotment to 
 Agricultural Labourers in England ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 June 5/A. 
 
 Are expenditure upon Wages, and expenditure upon 
 Commodities, equivalent, or different, in their effect on the 
 remuneration of the labourer ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 July 
 
 Is the doctrine well founded that Plagues and Epidemic 
 disease serve as correctives of population ; and that, also 
 stated by Mr. McCulloch, in his Note on population to his 
 edition of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, " these scourges 
 tend to place an old country in the situation of a colony ; 
 they lessen the number of inhabitants, without in most 
 cases lessening the capital that is to maintain them " ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 December ^th. 
 
 Is the law of Primogeniture favourable to the accumula- 
 tion of Wealth ? W. COULSON. 
 
 1846. February $th. 
 
 Is the Government scheme, now before the House of 
 Commons, for the settlement of the Corn Law, a just and 
 wise measure ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 Under circumstances analogous to the following, would 
 an immediate opening of the ports so alter Relative Prices,
 
 1846 Questions 59 
 
 as to cause, in the first instance, a diminution, rather than 
 an increase, in the quantity of Foreign grain, which could 
 be profitably imported ? 
 
 The circumstances are, that the supply of Corn in the 
 Foreign shipping ports is moderate, that the difference 
 between the prices in the British Markets, and in the ship- 
 ping ports, is just sufficient to enable the merchant, not- 
 withstanding the actual amount of the Import duty, to 
 bring in for internal consumption, from time to time, 
 moderate supplies of Foreign Corn ; and that while the 
 Foreign exchanges are adverse, there is also a pressure 
 upon the money market from domestic causes. 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 Is the Rent of Mines governed by similar principles with 
 the Rent of Land ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 What are the circumstances which regulate the Prices of 
 the different kinds of Agricultural produce relatively to one 
 another ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 June qth. 
 
 Are the causes of increase of population which have 
 operated during the last fifty years, permanent ? If not, 
 what will arrest or nullify them ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 July I4th. 
 Dinner at Greenwich. 
 
 December yd. 
 Club arrangements discussed.
 
 60 Political Economy Club 1847 
 
 1847. February qth. 
 
 In what way, and on what principle, is the Net produce 
 of the country to be separated and distinguished from the 
 Gross produce ? J. PENNINGTON. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 Would it be practicable for Government to adopt any 
 measures which should have the effect of rendering Bread 
 corn the staple food of the Labouring classes in Ireland, 
 and of averting the periodical visitations of famine and 
 pestilence to which a potato-fed population is exposed ? 
 
 Colonel TORRENS. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 What measures can be adopted to avert, as far as possible, 
 the dangerous consequences of the Irish Poor Law proposed 
 by the present Government ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Would legitimate enterprise be seriously obstructed by 
 legislative provisions, rendering the owners of Works, 
 machinery, mines, ships, &c., involving danger to life or 
 limb, liable to make good the pecuniary losses to the suf- 
 ferers and their families from fatal accidents or maiming, 
 incident to the employment or to the operation of such 
 works ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 Is the system of the Administration of Relief to the Poor, 
 advocated by Mr. McCulloch in the 22nd Note to his edition 
 of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations namely, a system of
 
 1847 Questions 61 
 
 relief " in moderate-sized parishes," which shall bring the 
 " burden as it were to the door of individuals," and make 
 it the interest of owners or occupiers to take care of the 
 poor sound in principle ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 Is it expedient that the Government should interfere 
 directly with the Education of the People, and to what 
 extent ? H. MACKENZIE. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Under what circumstances is it desirable to maintain a 
 Surplus revenue for the purpose of paying off a National 
 Debt ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 1848. February yd. 
 
 Is the system of letting small pieces of land to agricultural 
 labourers, commonly called the Allotment System, open to 
 any valid objection, as a means of improving the condition 
 of those labourers ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 What are the essential differences between Bank Notes 
 and other forms of Credit ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 What would have been the effects on Commerical Credit, 
 and on the solvency of the Bank of England, had the Cir- 
 culation, during the crisis of 1847, been regulated upon the 
 plan proposed by Mr. Tooke ? J. R. McCuLLOCH.
 
 62 Political Economy Club 1848 
 
 May ^th. 
 
 Would it not be highly conducive to the economical and 
 moral improvement of the Labouring Classes that the work- 
 men should be, as far as possible, associated in the Profits 
 of Industrial undertakings, and what means can be devised 
 of giving a greater degree of extension to this principle ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 Is there any sufficient reason for legislative interference 
 to prevent the raising of money by Mortgage of Future 
 Crops ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Is it expedient that the rights of Tenants occupying land 
 in Ireland should be enlarged, so as to render their tenure 
 virtually perpetual at the existing rents, as actually paid ? 
 
 N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 How has the recent approximation to Free Trade affected 
 the ability of this country to support the burthen of the 
 National Debt ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 1849. February ist. 
 
 What is the most equitable mode of assessing an Income 
 Tax? J. S. MILL. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 Are those objections valid, which in the last number of 
 the Edinburgh Review are urged against the establishment 
 of a body of Peasant Proprietors on the waste lands of 
 Ireland ? W. T. THORNTON
 
 1849 Questions 63 
 
 April $th. 
 
 Is there sufficient reason for the popular assumption that 
 the progress of British prosperity is seriously checked by 
 the pressure of existing Taxation ? G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 May 
 
 What is the foundation, and what are the limits, of 
 Property in Land ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 June jth. 
 
 Would it be expedient to introduce a general law, authoris- 
 ing persons to partake of the profits of a Partnership trade, 
 without being liable to the whole extent of their property 
 to the engagements of the firm ; or, in other words, authoris- 
 ing the formation of partnerships " en commandite " ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 July $th. 
 
 What is the most desirable area of Assessment for a Poor 
 Law in Ireland ? Lord MONTEAGLE. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 What are the most desirable changes to be made in our 
 system of Taxation ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 1850. February jlh. 
 
 What are the prospects of Agriculture under Free Trade ? 
 
 W. WHITMORE. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Does Taxation press more heavily upon the National 
 resources in this Country, than in the other principal coun- 
 tries of Europe ? G. W. NORMAN.
 
 64 Political Economy Club 1850 
 
 April 4//*. 
 
 Does the progress of Wealth and Industry, under the 
 present social institutions of Europe, tend to an increasing 
 agglomeration of Capital in large masses, or to the dispersion 
 of such masses ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Are the supplies of Gold from the recently discovered 
 sources of it in California, likely to be of such extent beyond 
 the ordinary demand for that metal, as to be calculated in 
 any material degree to diminish its value in the markets of 
 the world ? Are the supplies of Silver, from the improved 
 and cheaper working of the existing mines in America, and 
 the opening of new ones, likely to increase in the same 
 relative degree as Gold, so as to preserve the existing pro- 
 portionate value of the two metals ? T. TOOKE. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 What reason is there for believing that the recent approxi- 
 mations towards Free Trade in food, have affected the 
 ability of the country to bear the burthen of the National 
 Debt ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 July qth. 
 
 What is the Test, or the nature of the evidence, by which 
 an alteration in the value of either, or of both, of the Precious 
 metals could be ascertained or inferred ? On the sup- 
 position of a marked and admitted diminution in the value 
 of both Gold and Silver, or of Gold only (which is the standard 
 of value in this country), how would the public Revenue, 
 and different kinds of property and income, be affected ? 
 
 T. TOOKE.
 
 1850 Questions 65 
 
 December $th. 
 
 Is there any, and what, ground for the dictum of Adam 
 Smith, that the Foreign Trade of a country gives less en- 
 couragement to its industry or productive labour than is 
 afforded by its Home Trade ? G. R. PORTER. 
 
 1851. February 6th. 
 
 Would not the most eligible mode of relieving the Hand- 
 loom Weavers from their habitually depressed condition, be 
 their formation into Home colonies, combining agriculture 
 with their present employment ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 On what principles should privileges or rewards be granted 
 in respect of Inventions ? W. COULSON. 
 
 April yd. 
 
 Should the inhabitants of towns be supplied with Water 
 by trading companies with permission to compete, or from 
 a general rate by a public authority ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 Is not the Ricardo theory of Rent unnecessarily artificial, 
 and might not another be devised less complicated, yet 
 equally accurate and more comprehensive ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 Instead of being true, as is frequently asserted, that 
 Taxation presses with disproportionate weight on the Poor, 
 
 P. B.C.
 
 66 Political Economy Club 1851 
 
 would it not rather appear that no taxes, other than Pro- 
 tective duties, can permanently diminish the income of the 
 labouring classes ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 July 
 
 Does a business in which the Returns are slow, employ 
 with equal capital as much labour, and add as much to the 
 produce of the country, as a business in which the Returns 
 are quick ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 December qth. 
 
 Supposing that the supply of Gold from California and 
 Australia should reduce its value in a sensible degree rela- 
 tively to Silver, would this diminution in the relative value 
 of Gold form a justifiable ground for a legislative alteration 
 of the Standard of value in this country ? or would it, in 
 the case of a double standard, as in France, be just or politic 
 to withdraw from Gold the privilege of legal tender ? 
 
 T. TOOKE. 
 
 1852. February $th. 
 
 Can it, in any circumstances whatever, be advantageous 
 to raise the money required for the public expenditure, by 
 means of a Loan, instead of immediate taxation ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 March qth. 
 
 Is the purchase of commodities produced by labour 
 equivalent in its effect on Wages, and on the Labour market, 
 to the Direct purchase of Labour ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 What is the effect of an Import duty on the price of Corn ? 
 
 Sir WILLIAM CLAY.
 
 1852 Questions 67 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Would it be conducive to the permanent interests of the 
 whole of the Amalgamated Engineers or Mechanics, if their 
 demands, particularly those respecting piecework, and the 
 limitation of work to Apprentices, were conceded ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 June 
 
 Do any of the taxes still levied in this Country seriously 
 affect the Labouring classes ; and, if so, which ? 
 
 H. MACKENZIE. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 What are the necessary conditions of a just Income Tax ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 1853. February 
 Is Direct preferable to Indirect taxation ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 Is it desirable, for the more advantageous employment 
 of capital, that the law of Partnership should be modified 
 as regards the liability of partners to third parties ? 
 
 W. COULSON. 
 
 April jth. 
 
 What are the distinctions to be legitimately drawn between 
 Free Trade and Laissez faire, or, to adopt a recent phrase- 
 ology, between Free Trade and Unrestricted Competition ? 
 
 WM. NEWMARCH.
 
 68 Political Economy Club 1853 
 
 May ^th. 
 
 Is the claim made on behalf of the Irish Tenantry to hold 
 their farms in perpetuity at a rent fixed by valuation, 
 admissible in any shape, or under any conditions ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 What is the most correct definition of Capital ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Are there any, and what, limits to the principle, that the 
 physical wants of the Community are best supplied by the 
 agency of Competition ? Sir WILLIAM CLAY. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Would it be practicable, by largely employing Convict 
 labour on public works at home, to do away with the neces- 
 sity for Transportation as a secondary punishment ? 
 
 H. MERIVALB. 
 
 1854. February 2nd. 
 
 Assuming the amount of Emigration from these islands, 
 its proportion and its direction, to remain without material 
 alteration for several years, is this circumstance Likely to 
 prove a benefit or a disadvantage to the community ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Have we not, under the law and practice of Apprentice- 
 ship, and under the law and practice of Parochial Settle-
 
 1 854 Questions 69 
 
 ment in this country, conditions essentially of slave labour, 
 which are detrimental to productive industry and to im- 
 provement in the arts ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 Under the circumstances of this country during last year 
 and the present, what are the tests, and what is the evidence, 
 which would justify the conclusion, that in consequence of 
 the Californian and Australian supplies, the Exchangeable 
 value of Gold has fallen below its former level ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 May qth. 
 
 Are Copy-right and Patent-right founded on justice, or 
 merely on sufferance, and are not those terms really mis- 
 nomers ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 Are there any circumstances essential to Private or Com- 
 mercial service which place it, in point of efficiency and 
 economy, in a position of superiority to the Civil service of 
 the country ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Is it desirable, and if so, under what circumstances, that 
 a Government should endeavour to oblige its subjects to 
 Accumulate ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 What is the foundation of the Tenant Right of Ulster ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON.
 
 70 Political Economy Club 1855 
 
 1855. February 1st. 
 
 Under what circumstances are Governments justified in 
 distributing the present charges of Wars, by loans payable 
 by people who have not undertaken them ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 March 1st. 
 
 Is there any foundation for the proposition that the 
 Interest of money, after deducting what must be called 
 allowance for risk, that is, the portion of it which may be 
 called insurance, must be equal all over the civilised world ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 April iqth. 
 
 If the Nation were to appoint an Office at which func- 
 tionaries should daily give Certificates (of the same amounts 
 as the promissory notes now issued by banks) of deposits 
 of Gold, returnable on demand to whoever might bring 
 Gold for the purpose ; and should make such Certificates 
 the only legal tender except Gold : what might, conjectur- 
 ally, be the average amount of such Certificates in circula- 
 tion ? 
 
 2. Assuming that the average amount would be 
 45,000,000, and that 15,000,000 sovereigns would be 
 enough to retain for the purpose of currently reimbursing 
 Certificates brought in for re-imbursement, there would be 
 a resulting sum of 30,000,000, the return of which could 
 never be demanded. If the Nation were to treat this amount 
 as if it were a loan were to employ 11,000,000 of it to 
 repay its debt to the Company of the Bank of England 
 and expend the remaining 19,000,000 for " ways and
 
 1855 Questions 71 
 
 means," creating a stock of 30,000,000 ; of which it would 
 itself receive the annual interest, on the one hand, as it 
 annually paid it on the other : what, if any, would be the 
 disadvantages to the Nation of such a measure ? 
 
 3. Would not the pecuniary profit of this measure to 
 the Nation, be equivalent to the benefit of a perpetual loan, 
 free of all interest, of 30,000,000, plus the gain of the 
 amount of Certificates destroyed from time to time by 
 shipwreck, fire, and in other ways, minus the cost of manu- 
 facturing the Certificates, and maintaining the establish- 
 ment for affording them ? 
 
 4. Seeing that the security for these Certificates would 
 be that of the Nation, and that they would always be of 
 equal value to bills of undoubted security, payable in London 
 at sight, is there not reason for supposing that they would 
 be much employed in other, especially in Asiatic countries, 
 for remittance, and particularly for hoarding ? 
 
 5. As these Certificates could not be primarily obtained 
 in any other manner than by deposit of Gold, and as the 
 aggregate daily amount of them in all would vary in accord- 
 ance with the daily efflux and influx of Gold, would they 
 not constitute an absolutely perfect Paper-money ? 
 
 J. W. CO WELL. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 Is the distinction drawn in the following passage of Mr. 
 Mill's Principles of Political Economy correct ? " Altera- 
 tions in the cost of production of the precious metals do 
 not act upon the value of money, except just as they increase 
 or diminish its quantity, which cannot be said of any other 
 commodity." (Book iii. ch. 9, sec. 3 : see also Stirling on 
 Production of Gold.) H. MERIVALE.
 
 72 Political Economy Club 1855 
 
 June jth. 
 
 What are the general principles which in this country 
 may best determine the extent and character of the regula- 
 tions to be imposed by law on Joint Stock Banking or 
 Trading Companies ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 July ^th. 
 
 Is not a Decimal system of coinage and account desir- 
 able ? But is a Pound the proper unit for such a system ? 
 
 R. LOWE. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 To what extent is the pressure of the National Debt of 
 this country lessened by mitigating circumstances, arising 
 out of the facilities which it affords to certain kinds of 
 business ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 What are the nature and extent of the relief which the 
 present generation obtains at the expense of posterity, by 
 raising the supplies necessary for War expenditure, by 
 means of Loans instead of by means of Taxation ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 1856. February jth. 
 
 Assuming that the principle of Limited Liability ought to 
 be introduced, to what Partnerships should it extend, and 
 with what Safeguards should it be attended ? R. LOWE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Is it desirable, and in what degree, that a Government 
 requiring Loans should contract them in a Stock bearing 
 the Market rate of Interest ? WM. NEWMARCH.
 
 1856 Questions 73 
 
 April 
 
 Does the purchase of Commodities for Unproductive con- 
 sumption contribute to the employment of Labour, in the 
 same degree as the expenditure of an equal sum in direct 
 payment of Wages to unproductive Labourers ? 
 
 J S. MILL. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 Is there anything in the present or recent circumstances 
 of this country to justify the establishment of a Sinking 
 Fund of a fixed amount, not dependent on the excess of 
 Revenue over Expenditure ? W. COULSON. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 In disposing of the Lands of the Australian Colonies, 
 would it be a wise measure not to alienate the Freehold, 
 but to sell a Leasehold interest of, say, a hundred years ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Is it an error, either of principle or practice, to prescribe 
 by Statute the rate of Hire of Public Street Conveyances ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 December qkh. 
 
 Is it incumbent on the Bank of England to restrict its 
 discounts, on the Setting in of a Drain of Gold, without 
 reference to the causes in which that Drain originates ? 
 
 J. S. MILL.
 
 74 Political Economy Club 1857 
 
 1857. February $th. 
 
 Are there any circumstances in the progress of Arts and 
 Manufactures which tend to Maintain or to Advance Wages, 
 irrespective of the number of Labourers in the Market ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 What is the mode and degree in which the facilities 
 afforded by Railways in this Country have led to a saving 
 of Capital, and to diminutions of the Cost of Production ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 What is the best mode of applying to the promotion of 
 Effective Emigration, funds provided by the Australian and 
 American Colonies ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 By what laws are Retail Prices and Profits determined ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 June qth. 
 
 Is there any adequate foundation for the doctrine, that 
 the issue of Bank Notes is properly an exclusive function or 
 prerogative of the Sovereign or State ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 What are the modifications, if any, which should be applied 
 to the doctrine that Public Corporations are not entitled to 
 compensation for Property resumed by the State ? 
 
 R. LOWE.
 
 1857 Questions 75 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Is there any reason to imagine that the Gold produced in 
 California and Australia has lowered the exchangeable value 
 of that metal ; and, if so, how much ? G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 1858. February qth. 
 
 What would be the effects on the production and distri- 
 bution of Wealth, if the owners of Property were further 
 restrained from settling it, or from preventing, for long 
 periods after their decease, the absolute Ownership from 
 becoming Vested ? W. COULSON. 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Are there any valid reasons against the extension to Joint 
 Stock Banks of the principle of Limited Liability ? 
 
 A. WILKINSON. 
 
 March 2$th. 
 
 What have been the effects on the production and dis- 
 tribution of Wealth, of the observance, as a period of rest, 
 of one day in Seven ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Is there any well-founded reason for the common opinion, 
 that a high rate of Interest is injurious to this country ? 
 
 T. HANKEY. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 Under what circumstances would a fall in the exchange- 
 able value of Gold, as a consequence of the recent discoveries, 
 justify any alteration in the Standard so as to affect existing 
 Contracts ? J. S. MILL.
 
 76 Political Economy Club 1858 
 
 July ist. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of Rent ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 What are the economical elements involved in efficient 
 Popular Education ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 1859. February yd. 
 
 Is there any sufficient foundation for the provision that 
 all Contracts, involving value of more than Ten Pounds, 
 shall be in writing ? BARON BRAMWELL. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 What would be the probable Economical consequences in 
 this Country of a Government based on Universal Suffrage ? 
 
 C. MORRISON. 
 
 April 7th. 
 
 To what extent, if any, is it justifiable or advisable to 
 depart from the strict rules of Political Economy, in dealing 
 with the Social Condition of a people ? A. WILKINSON. 
 
 May 5///. 
 
 Is a Compulsory Provision for the Poor defensible ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 Is the Distribution of Newspapers and Books by the Post 
 Office at variance with the principles of Political Economy ; 
 and, if not, would it be any Violation of those principles to
 
 1 859 Questions 77 
 
 employ the mechanism of the Department, as proposed by 
 the Society of Arts, in the distribution of small parcels 
 generally ? ROWLAND HILL. 
 
 July yth. 
 
 What is the connection between the Price of Provisions 
 and the Price of Labour ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Is the granting of Patents in accordance with Economic 
 Science ? R. LOWE. 
 
 1860. February 2nd. 
 
 Have the general effects of the Influx of New Gold been 
 beneficial or the reverse ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 Is Unproductive Consumption conducive to National 
 Wealth ? J. M. MACLEOD. 
 
 March 2gth. 
 
 What are the circumstances, if any, under which Com- 
 mercial Treaties are, on economical grounds, more advan- 
 tageous, than the adoption or continuance of an internal 
 policy, which seeks to impose the fewest and smallest Cus- 
 toms' Duties compatible with the needs of the Public 
 Service ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 Is it, or is it not, a sufficient reason for Country A to 
 impose a Differential duty upon any article, the produce of
 
 78 Political Economy Club 1860 
 
 Country B, that Country B imposes an Export duty on the 
 same article, or on the Raw Material thereof ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 June 7th. 
 
 Does that law which gives to Inventors the monopoly of 
 their Invention for a certain number of years, thereby cause 
 the amount of National Wealth to be greater than it would 
 be, were no such exclusive privilege conceded to Inventors ? 
 
 J. W. COWELL. 
 
 July $th. 
 
 What are the objections generally, and especially at the 
 present time, to a Double Standard of Gold and Silver ? 
 
 Sir W. CLAY. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 To what extent are considerations of Justice and Morality 
 admissible in the discussion of Questions of Political 
 Economy ? J. M. MACLEOD. 
 
 1861. February 6th. 
 
 Considering that the extra services and the extra supplies 
 of Commodities required for the purposes of a War are 
 actually provided or consumed during each year of War, 
 how far, if at all, is it true that a Loan enables the Com- 
 munity to throw part of the burden of the War upon 
 posterity ? J. A. HANKEY. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Are there any reasons for believing that a law designed to 
 diminish the prevalence of Credit in the Country by denying
 
 1 86 1 Questions 79 
 
 legal validity to Debts of longer standing than, say, six 
 months, would be economically advantageous ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 April nth. 
 
 What is the value of Moral Education to Economical 
 Improvement ; and conversely, what are the bearings of 
 Economical Prosperity on Moral Excellence ? 
 
 J. S. MILL. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Is an uniform Income Tax in accordance with the just 
 principles of Taxation ? R. LOWE. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of the word 
 " Tax " ? J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 July qth. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of Political 
 Economy ? N. W. SENIOR. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 What are the legitimate limitations to be applied, on 
 Economical grounds, to the absolute power of Settling 
 Property ? H. THRING. 
 
 1862. February 6th. 
 
 Observation of the Phenomena exhibited in the processes 
 of Production, Distribution, Interchange and Consumption 
 of Wealth having indicated certain laws, or rules, as govern- 
 ing, or naturally attending upon these processes respectively,
 
 80 Political Economy Club 1862 
 
 does observance or disregard of those laws or rules affect 
 the Stability of Nations and Communities according as, in 
 their fiscal and commercial legislation, they observe or 
 violate them ? J. W. COWELL. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 What are the grounds on which the Legislature awards 
 an exclusive privilege of Professional Practice in certain 
 callings ; and is such a privilege advantageous to the public, 
 and desirable for the Practitioner ? J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 April yd. 
 
 Can the present Poll Tax, which is imposed upon Chinese 
 Immigrants into Australia, be defended on Economic 
 grounds ? H. FAWCETT. 
 
 April 
 
 In the present state of Railway enterprise in this Country, 
 how far is it true that the public convenience and profit 
 may be best advanced by promoting the Amalgamation of 
 Lines, with a view to a regulated Monopoly, rather than by 
 encouraging competition in the ordinary sense ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 Can any Income Tax, and, a fortiori, an uniform Income 
 Tax, be otherwise than at variance with the just principles 
 of Taxation ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 July loth. 
 
 Does Political Economy afford any tests for ascertaining 
 at what period the maintenance by the Mother Country of
 
 1 862 Questions 81 
 
 dominion over a Colony ceases to be profitable ? (By 
 Colony is meant, for the purpose of this question, one 
 founded by the Mother-Country and peopled wholly or in 
 great part by Emigration from it.) H. MERIVALE. 
 
 December qth. 
 
 What kind of Taxes are best adapted to a British Colony 
 in the situation of Canada at this time ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 1863. February 6th. 
 
 Would England gain more in material resources by the 
 adoption of measures for the protection of private Property 
 from Capture at Sea, in time of War, than she would lose 
 by the abandonment of the right of injuring her enemy by 
 the seizure of such Property ? Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Is it expedient that the Cab Fares in London and else- 
 where should be fixed by Law ? Sir ROWLAND HILL. 
 
 March 2jth. 
 
 What is the best definition of Productive and Unpro- 
 ductive Labour, and of Productive and Unproductive Con- 
 sumption ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 To what extent is the principle of Co-operative Trade 
 Societies among the Working Classes economically sound ? 
 
 H. FAWCETT.
 
 82 Political Economy Club 1863 
 
 June $th. 
 
 Has the Discovery of New Gold Mines made any change 
 in the conditions of International Trade ? 
 
 T. E. CLIFFE LESLIE. 
 
 July -yd. 
 
 Is the word Capital most properly used to designate 
 certain kinds of Wealth, namely, Food, Implements, and 
 Materials ; or should it rather be applied to all Wealth, of 
 whatever kind, which is, or is intended by its owner to be, 
 applied to the purpose of Reproduction ? J. S. MILL. 
 
 December &J,h. 
 
 When a Loan is to be raised for Warlike or other Unpro- 
 ductive Expenditure, is it more Advantageous (on general 
 principles) to Borrow of Countrymen or Foreigners ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 1864. February $th. 
 
 To what extent is the power of a Country to make or 
 carry on War destroyed or diminished by what are called 
 Financial Difficulties ? T. HANKEY. 
 
 March 4///. 
 
 Is the ownership of Land, with the intent to its Culture 
 by the labour of the Owner, and the members of his family, 
 economically expedient ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 April 8th. 
 
 What are the elements which should be reckoned in any 
 numerical calculation of National Wealth ? 
 
 J. E. T. ROGERS.
 
 1864 Questions 83 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 As Government exists to protect Property and Person, it 
 is just that each man should contribute towards maintaining 
 Government in proportion to the total value of the property 
 possessed by him, and protected for him, and it is unjust 
 that any man should contribute in any other proportion. 
 An uniform Percentage Tax on the value of each man's 
 protected property being perfectly equitable, is there any 
 other equally equitable Tax, less likely to interfere in- 
 juriously with the natural processes of the Production, 
 Distribution, Interchange, and Consumption of Wealth than 
 this ? J. W. Co WELL. 
 
 June yrd. 
 
 The obligations of a State having been contracted in a 
 Silver Currency, is there any foundation for the opinion that 
 there is a breach of faith committed towards the holders by 
 substituting or adding Gold as a standard ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 What would be the effect on Literary Produce and Literary 
 Producers of a total abolition of Copyright ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Upon what principles of Political Economy ought the law 
 of Parochial Settlement to be founded ? 
 
 J. FITZJAMES STEPHEN. 
 
 
 
 1865. February yd. 
 
 What are the leading principles of Political Economy 
 applicable in this Country to the initiation, construction, 
 and working of Railways for public use ? E. CHADWICK.
 
 84 Political Economy Club 1865 
 
 March 
 
 Are there any circumstances which should induce us to 
 think that the average Rate of Interest in this Country has 
 a tendency to rise as compared with the Rate (say) ten 
 years back ? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 April yth. 
 
 Is it expedient in an economical point of view, that 
 breaches of engagement (for instance between Vendor and 
 Purchaser, Debtor and Creditor, Trustee and Cestuique 
 Trust, Employer and Servant, or Workman) should be 
 subject to punishment, as offences against Criminal Law ; 
 and, if it is, can any practical limitation of the principle be 
 laid down ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 May 5/A. 
 
 Are there any circumstances in the history of a com- 
 munity which will justify Protection on Economical grounds ? 
 
 J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 What is the true relation of Money to the rate of Interest ? 
 
 J. E. CAIRNES. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Does the high rate of Interest in America and in new 
 Colonies indicate a corresponding high rate of profits ? and 
 if so, What are the causes of that high rate ? 
 
 J. S. MILL.
 
 1865 Questions 85 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Is it possible to define d priori the just limits between 
 laissezfaire and defensible interference by a Legislature with 
 the industry or pursuits of its subjects ? 
 
 J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 1866. February 2nd. 
 
 Is it, or is it not, desirable to append an Expansive Clause 
 to the Act of 1844, permitting, in cases of internal panic, 
 the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the 
 Treasury, on the application of the Bank of England, to 
 augment the Issue of Bank Notes upon Securities beyond 
 the limit now prescribed ? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Is it not incorrect to affirm that Poor Rates are solely a 
 charge on Land, inasmuch as they are often really paid by 
 the occupiers of Houses, and by the consumers of Com- 
 modities ? H. FAWCETT. 
 
 April 
 
 On Economical principles, ought the relation of Landlord 
 and Tenant to be left to private interest, the State inter- 
 fering only to secure the performance of the Contract ? 
 
 T. E. CLIFFE LESLIE. 
 
 May 4th. 
 
 Under what circumstances, independent of political emer- 
 gencies, is it desirable to negotiate with a Foreign State in 
 order to effect a Commercial Treaty ? H. MERIVALE.
 
 86 Political Economy Club 1866 
 
 June ist. 
 
 A country is burdened with a heavy perpetual debt, the 
 Interest of which forms from a third to a half of its ordinary 
 expenditure. It is probable that its means for producing 
 Wealth are likely to undergo serious diminution ; such 
 diminution, however, not to commence for a long period, 
 say for a century. Is it, or is it not, desirable that the 
 Legislature of that country, in fixing its annual Taxation, 
 should take into account this probability ? J. WALEY. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Is it better to entrust the principal Custody of the Bullion 
 Reserve against Banking liabilities to a single Bank, or to 
 distribute it between several Banks ? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 What is the meaning of Supply, and what of Demand ? 
 Is it correct to say that supply and demand determine price ? 
 If not, in what manner is it that supply and demand affect 
 price ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 1867. February ist. 
 
 Is there reason to believe that it has become practicable 
 in this country to establish on a large scale, plans under 
 which persons employed may be remunerated, wholly or 
 partly, by participation in the profit and loss results of the 
 businesses carried on by their employers ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 What measures would it be advisable for the Government 
 of India to take (in accordance as far as possible with sound
 
 1867 Questions 87 
 
 Economical Policy) to prevent the occurrence of Famines 
 extending over considerable districts of country, or to 
 mitigate their effects ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 April $th. 
 
 In what form, if any, could the principles of so-called 
 "Tenant Right" be applied in Ireland? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 In what manner, and under what conditions, if any, can 
 the British Government properly afford assistance to Rail- 
 way Companies, with a view to their relief from temporary 
 or accidental embarrassment ? J. WALEY. 
 
 June 7th. 
 
 What are the comparative advantages or disadvantages 
 of the different systems in use in great States for raising 
 and recruiting an Army, economically considered, in refer- 
 ence both to Military efficiency and to Cost ? 
 
 T. E. CLIFFE LESLIE. 
 
 July $th. 
 
 What Legislation, if any, either modifying the general 
 laws of immovable property, or conferring special facilities, 
 financial or otherwise, would be desirable, in order to pro- 
 mote the erection of adequate Dwellings for the Working 
 Classes, and the disposal of such dwellings among them 
 when erected ? T. HARE. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 What are the reasons, if any, which justify those clauses 
 of the present Succession Duty Acts in this country which
 
 88 Political Economy Club 1867 
 
 limit the Tax, in the case of Real Estate, to the value of 
 the life interest only of the Successor ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 1868. February jth. 
 
 Is it, or is it not, desirable to give any legislative privileges 
 or facilities to Friendly Societies, which are not conceded to 
 Trades Unions ? H. MERIVALE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Has the compulsory division in France of Landed Pro- 
 perty among the descendants of deceased owners, been 
 Economically beneficial to that Country or the reverse ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 April yd. 
 
 Has the Emigration of late years from Ireland been dis- 
 advantageous, or the reverse, to that Country ? 
 
 Lord DUFFERIN. 
 
 May ist. 
 
 What is the true policy to be pursued in this Country 
 regarding the authorisation of Railways to sanction, as at 
 present, any Railway proposed, or only to authorise such 
 lines as will produce an adequate Dividend ? 
 
 E. WATKIN. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 What Economical grounds are there for charging upon 
 Personal Property any portion of the expense of Local 
 administration now charged upon Real Property ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK.
 
 i868 Questions 89 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Are the principles upon which the Banking Department 
 of the Bank of England should be managed, identical with 
 those which should regulate any other large London Bank ? 
 
 W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 December qkh. 
 
 Are there any special merits or defects in the plan adopted 
 by the United States for providing the interest, and reducing 
 the principal, of the National Debt ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 1869. February ^th. 
 
 Ought a Government to impose a Seigniorage on Coins 
 which are legal tender for an unlimited amount, and if it 
 ought, how much should such Seigniorage be ? 
 
 W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 Is it true, upon economic principles, that the Commercial 
 relation between Employers and Labourers for hire is 
 necessarily one of antagonism ? W. R. GREG. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 Is the system of Local Taxation in this country adequate 
 to meet the demands upon it, and if not, in what manner 
 can it be supplemented ? Lord F. CAVENDISH. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 What Economical advantages are derivable from the 
 Elementary Education and Physical Training of the Popu-
 
 90 Political Economy Club 1869 
 
 lation, to justify a compulsory system and payment for it 
 by Rates and Taxes ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 June ^th. 
 
 Is the rule of English Law by which contracts in restraint 
 of Trade are prohibited, in accordance with sound Econo- 
 mical Policy ? J. WALEY. 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 Is the doctrine of the equality of the Rate of Profits well 
 founded ? T. E. CLIFFE LESLIE. 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Does the theory of the different fertility of soils account 
 for the origin and increase of Rent ; and if not, how is the 
 phenomenon of Rent to be explained ? 
 
 J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 1870. February qth. 
 
 In what manner is the Ulster Tenant Right to be recon- 
 ciled with the ordinary doctrines of Political Economy 
 respecting Rent, and to what extent does it serve as a guide 
 for future legislation as to Irish Land ? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 To what extent has it been found necessary in the Aus- 
 tralian Colonies to modify during recent years the Wake- 
 field principle in its application to the disposal of Waste 
 Lands ? R. R. TORRENS. 
 
 April is/. 
 
 Assuming that the State undertake to settle by legis- 
 lation the relation of Landlord and Tenant, can any criterion 
 be suggested for determining Agricultural Rent in con-
 
 1870 Questions 91 
 
 formity with the moral basis of property, and consistently 
 with public policy ? Professor CAIRNES. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 What are the economical advantages or disadvantages 
 arising to this Country from the possession of India ? 
 
 H. MERIVALE. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 To what extent can the Government of this Country 
 interfere with advantage with the business of Life Insurance 
 Offices, with the view of preventing mismanagement and 
 insolvency ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 Is it to be expected that material Economical advantages 
 would result from restraining the latitude of Settlement and 
 Entail of Land allowed by the Law of England ? 
 
 J. WALEY. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 What are the valid objections, if any, to the adoption, 
 under present circumstances, of an uniform Poor Law Rating 
 over the whole of the Metropolis ? T. HARE. 
 
 1871. February yd. 
 
 Would the institution of Free Schools have a tendency to 
 pauperise the parents of the children who might be taught 
 in them ? Sir CHARLES W. DILKE. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 Was Adam Smith correct in his view that Standing Armies 
 are the most economical form of Military force ? 
 
 E. CHADWICK.
 
 92 Political Economy Club 1871 
 
 March 
 
 Is the limitation correct which is involved in the title of 
 the Theory of International Trade ? L. H. COURTNEY. 
 
 May 5/A. 
 
 How far is it true that after the cessation of such a war 
 as recently prevailed between France and Germany, there 
 is a tendency in the belligerent Countries to rapid recovery 
 from the loss of Wealth occasioned by the conflict ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 Assuming that there are Industrial Undertakings which 
 competition cannot regulate, what is their character, and 
 the best mode of dealing with them ? T. H. FARRER. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Upon what principles, if any, can an Arbitrator between 
 Masters and Men, during a Strike, decide in favour of one 
 or other ? W. BAGEHOT. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 How far is it true that the French Commercial Treaty of 
 1860, and subsequent Treaties on the same basis, are in 
 accordance with sound Economical principles ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 1872. February 2nd. 
 
 It has been proposed to appropriate to the use of the 
 State the increment of the rent of lands consequent on the 
 development of Society. In such a Country as England, is 
 it practicable or desirable to act on this proposal ? 
 
 W. BAGEHOT.
 
 1872 Questions 93 
 
 March 1st. 
 
 May not lands be permitted with advantage to be held 
 for Public or Charitable uses, supposing the management of 
 such lands were vested in local and responsible Government 
 officers, instructed to regard the general welfare, as well as 
 the benefit of the institutions receiving the income ? 
 
 T. HARE. 
 
 April 5th. 
 
 What is likely to be the effect of the Nine Hours Move- 
 ment, if made general, on the Productive Power of this 
 country ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 Is it the fact that the Wage Fund Theory, or Doctrine 
 that wages depend on the proportion of Capital to Popula- 
 tion, has been displaced by recent economical investigations ? 
 
 J. WALEY. 
 
 June yth. 
 
 Is it desirable on Economic grounds to maintain the 
 existing proportion between direct and indirect Taxation 
 in this country ? Sir Louis MALLET. 
 
 July ^th. 
 
 Is open Competition the universal and unmixed Economic 
 good it is usually represented to be ? W. R. GREG. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 In the formation of Customs Unions, what kinds of duties 
 should be imposed, and how should the revenue resulting 
 from them be distributed ? L. H. COURTNEY.
 
 94 Political Economy Club 1873 
 
 1873. February jlh. 
 
 In what manner, as far as can, or seems probable, have 
 the New Gold Mines affected Prices ? T. E. C. LESLIE. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 Do the extensive Industrial and other consequences which 
 may have arisen, and may be apprehended in this Country 
 from the rapid rise in the price of Coal, afford reasonable 
 ground for Government interference of any kind ; or for the 
 immediate or prospective imposition of an Export Duty ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 April ^th. 
 
 Ought Minerals to be the property of the State, or of the 
 owner of the surface under which they lie ? 
 
 Mr. G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Is it sound Economical doctrine that a mixed Currency, 
 consisting partly of Gold and partly of convertible Paper, 
 and the convertibility of which is sufficiently secured, should 
 be further regulated with a view to its being at all times of 
 the same amount, and consequently of the same value, as 
 a purely Metallic Currency would be ? J. WALEY. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 Are there in this Country any good grounds, not also 
 applicable to the settlement of Personal Estate, for further 
 limiting the powers of owners to settle their Real Estate ; 
 and if so, what ought the limit to be in character and extent ? 
 
 W. FOWLER.
 
 1873 Questions 95 
 
 July 4ih. 
 
 How far is it true that in most cases it is the duty of a 
 Nation, burdened with National Debt, to make provision 
 for substantial reduction in time of peace, either by Sinking 
 Fund, Surplus Revenue, or Terminable Annuities ? 
 
 D. BAXTER. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 Was the purchase of the Inland Telegraphs, and would 
 the purchase of the Ocean Telegraphs by the Government 
 be, in contravention of sound principles of Political 
 Economy ? EDWIN CHADWICK. 
 
 1874. February 6th. 
 
 Is it possible for the construction of a Railway, the pur- 
 poses for which are purely commercial, and which cannot 
 by the most judicious management be made to yield profit 
 at the current average rate on its cost, to have been other 
 than a bad investment of a portion of the National Capital ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Is the reasoning sound which discriminates between 
 Capital and Income in discussing the principles of Direct 
 Taxation ? L. H. COURTNEY. 
 
 April loth. 
 
 What are the advantages and disadvantages of Founda- 
 tions, and in what way, if any, is it desirable that Founda- 
 tions should be limited ? J. MORLEY.
 
 g6 Political Economy Club 1874 
 
 May ist. 
 
 Under what circumstances, and in respect of what Income 
 or Property, does a tax cease to be a taxation, and become 
 a rent charge or share belonging to the State ? 
 
 DUDLEY BAXTER. 
 
 June 5/A. 
 
 To what extent is it true that, on economical grounds, the 
 Administration of the Government of India by this country 
 is becoming impracticable ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Are there any circumstances which may warrant the 
 adoption by nations of Protective measures, directed against 
 certain results of " Free Trade in Labour ? " 
 
 Sir C. W. DILKE. 
 
 December 4lh. 
 
 How far is it true that in modern States the inventions 
 and arrangements which are most efficient in the Production 
 of Wealth, are also, and of necessity, most conducive to its 
 natural and wholesome Distribution ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 1875. January 2gth. 
 
 To what extent are the Bank Act of 1844, and the Banking 
 System of England, responsible for the great fluctuations in 
 the rate of discount ? W. P. PATTISON. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 To what extent is Government Inspection of such indus- 
 tries as Shipping, Mines, and Railways, likely to prove
 
 1875 Questions 97 
 
 economical in promoting improvements, and in securing 
 greater safety of life ? G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 How far is it true that an allowance of Tenant Right 
 would be an injury to Property, and what is the weight of 
 the objection, supposing it to be in any sense proved ? 
 
 L. H. COURTNEY. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 Political Economy being commonly regarded as the 
 Science which treats of National Wealth, in what sense 
 should the word Wealth be understood when used in politico- 
 economical discussions ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 June 4th. 
 
 Is any great reform in the administration of the Railways 
 of the United Kingdom necessary and practicable ? 
 
 W. S. JEVONS. 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 What are the causes of the great excess of imports over 
 exports in the trade of the United Kingdom ? 
 
 T. E. C. LESLIE. 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Is it possible to discover an Economical Principle in 
 accordance with which the direct payment of Local Taxes 
 might be distributed between the ground Landlord and the 
 occupier or lessee ? J. E. T. ROGERS.
 
 98 Political Economy Club 1876 
 
 1876. February qth. 
 
 Are the existing relations between Great Britain and 
 Canada, as parts of the same empire, economically beneficial 
 to both or either of the two Countries ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 Under what conditions may the State act in conformity 
 with the principles of Political Economy in the formation 
 and acquisition of International Lines of Communication 
 such as the Suez Canal ? E. CHAD WICK. 
 
 April 'jth. 
 
 Is the maintenance by the Indian Government of an 
 import duty on manufactured goods consistent with sound 
 financial principles ? J. MORLEY. 
 
 May $ih. 
 
 Having regard to the existing modes of raising the revenue 
 of the United Kingdom, is it economically better to apply 
 a surplus of income over expenditure in reducing taxation 
 or in paying off debt ? Sir WILLIAM V. HARCOURT. 
 
 May 3ist. 
 
 CENTENARY OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE " WEALTH 
 OF NATIONS " IN 1776. 
 
 What are the more important results which have followed 
 from the publication of the " Wealth of Nations," just 100 
 years ago ; and in what principal directions do the doctrines 
 of the work still remain to be applied ? R. LOWE.
 
 1876 Questions 99 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Are Import Duties, levied for the purpose of encouraging 
 home manufactures and productions, consistent, under all 
 circumstances, with the best interests of the Country levying 
 such duties, and with the teachings of Political Economy ? 
 
 H. McCuLLOCH. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 Does the present limited number of Landed Proprietors 
 in this country result from Economic Laws ? If not, is it 
 expedient to promote the increase of their number ? 
 
 G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 1877. February 2nd. 
 What is the relation of value to utility and labour ? 
 
 W. S. JEVONS. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Whether the resumption of the use of i Bank Notes 
 would not be attended with much convenience and profit, 
 without any resulting inconvenience of serious importance ? 
 
 W. FOWLER. 
 
 April 
 
 Is it possible, by any general rules or principles, to define 
 the cases in which it is legitimate for the community to 
 interfere in supplying purchasable Goods or Services ? 
 
 T. H. FARRER. 
 
 May Afih. 
 
 In what departments of Political Economy may it be 
 safely considered that certain propositions of universal
 
 ioo Political Economy Club 1877 
 
 application have been discovered and established ; and in 
 modification of which local and special causes cannot be 
 urged ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 To what extent is the present Stagnation of Trade excep- 
 tional, and in what respects does it present features similar 
 to those of periodically-recurring Commercial depressions ? 
 
 H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Is it true that there is such a freedom of Contract between 
 Owner and Occupier of Land and Buildings as satisfies the 
 conditions of free Exchange ; and how far is the action of 
 such contracts as are customary illustrated by the incidence 
 of Local Taxation ? J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 What are the conditions on which the manufacturing 
 predominance of Great Britain depends ; and is there any 
 reason to think that they have been, or may be endangered ? 
 
 A. J. MUNDELLA. 
 
 1878. February ist. 
 
 Is it consistent with the design and practice of Adam 
 Smith, to treat the laws of Industry as an independent and 
 abstract science ? F. HARRISON. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 Are not those Economists who have expressed a qualified 
 approval of Strikes, in some degree responsible for the 
 disastrous Strikes now occurring ? W. S. JEVONS.
 
 1878 Questions 101 
 
 April 5/A. 
 
 How far is it true that Production carried on under con- 
 ditions which secure ample freedom and security for the 
 application of capital and the employment of labour is of 
 itself, apart from any adjunct of special laws, practically 
 sufficient to secure to Labourers as well as Capitalists the 
 best Distribution of the wealth produced ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 Is there any benefit resulting from the present Poor Laws, 
 of sufficient importance to compensate for the acknowledged 
 evils incident to a system of State Relief to the Poor ? 
 
 W. FOWLER. 
 
 June 7th. 
 
 Is there really such a thing as Economic Law ? if so, how 
 far should Economic Law be defined, and what specimens 
 of it can be adduced ? W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 July 5#. 
 
 How far, if at all, is there reason to believe that the Com- 
 mercial Depression of Europe and America of the last five 
 years justifies the inference that during the next twenty or 
 thirty years there must be a considerable decline from the 
 prosperity which has more or less prevailed since 1850 ? 
 
 W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 Whether the Indian Government should take any, and if 
 so, what, measures to protect itself from the heavy loss
 
 IO2 Political Economy Club 1878 
 
 accruing to the Indian Revenues on its exchange operations, 
 arising out of the depreciation of Silver ? 
 
 Colonel CHESNEY. 
 
 1879. February jth. 
 
 To what extent, if at all, is the Inspection of Private 
 Trades and Industries by Government a departure from 
 sound economic principles ? E. CHADWICK. 
 
 March yth. 
 
 Whether is a constant excess of the supply of the Precious 
 Metals over current demands, leading to a continued rise of 
 prices, more favourable to the growth of communities in 
 material Wealth than a supply which is just sufficient to 
 maintain an equilibrium in prices, or which is so much 
 deficient that there is a prolonged fall of prices ? 
 
 R. GIFFEN. 
 
 April 4th. 
 
 Can the Economist ever approve of the attempt of an 
 Industrial Class to overrule the freedom of action of the 
 individual ? J. MORLEY. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 Are there any valid economic reasons why, in such a 
 state of society as prevails in the greater part of British 
 India, the law should give to the Patrimonial Inheritances 
 of small proprietors an immunity from being charged or 
 sold to meet the debts of life occupiers ? 
 
 L. H. COURTNEY. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 Is it the duty of Government, in endeavouring to apply 
 a remedy to the evils which have arisen from the dislocation
 
 1879 Questions 103 
 
 of the prices of the Precious Metals, to regard the Metro- 
 politan position of England in the light of the Political 
 centre of the British Empire or in that of the Commercial 
 centre of the world ? H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 July 4/A. 
 
 Is it possible, and if possible, would it be desirable, to 
 establish and maintain Bimetallism in India, without regard 
 to the monetary arrangements of any other country ? 
 
 W. T. THORNTON. 
 
 Assuming that the relations between the consumer of 
 agricultural produce, the landowner, the tenant farmer, and 
 the peasant labourer are not in all respects satisfactory, is 
 the remedy to be found (i) on the one hand, in restrictions 
 on individual freedom of action, such as Protection, com- 
 pulsory compensation for improvements, or other legal inter- 
 ference with absolute ownership ; or (2), on the other hand, 
 in the promotion of individual freedom of action, such as 
 may be found in liberating landowners and farmers from 
 the restrictions of the law of settlement, and in stimulating 
 peasant labourers by the " magic of ownership ? " 
 
 T. H. FARRER. 
 
 1880. February 6th. 
 
 Under what management, whether that of Public Com- 
 panies, Special Corporations, Municipal Authorities, or the 
 State, ought extensive industrial undertakings, such as 
 Water Works, Gas or Lighting Works, Tramways, and the 
 like to be placed ? W. S. JEVONS.
 
 IO4 Political Economy Club 1880 
 
 March $th. 
 
 In what manner, if at all, would the Legislature be justified 
 in abridging the present uncontrolled discretion of Free- 
 holders in London and other towns, in fixing the conditions 
 on which they will let their lands on Building or Ordinary 
 Leases ? W. NEWMARCH. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 How should the liability of employers to workmen, in 
 consequence of accidents arising from the negligence of 
 fellow-workmen, be regulated according to economic prin- 
 ciples ? Sir GEO. BRAMWELL. 
 
 June ^th. 
 
 How should the liability of employers to workmen, in 
 consequence of accidents arising from the negligence of 
 fellow-workmen, be regulated according to economic prin- 
 ciples ? Re-opened by J. E. T. ROGERS. 
 
 July 2nd. 
 
 Whether, with reference to the existing economic con- 
 ditions of industry, and subject to what limitations, it is 
 correct to speak of the possibility of over-production ? 
 
 Col. CHESNEY. 
 
 December yd. 
 
 What is the proper meaning, and what are the true limits, 
 of the doctrine of " Freedom of Contract " ? 
 
 T. H. FARRER. 
 
 1881. February qth. 
 
 Is peasant proprietorship possible in Ireland ? 
 
 W. S. JEVONS.
 
 i88i Questions 105 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Are there any cases where it is expedient or consistent 
 with Free Trade principles for a country to impose Customs 
 Duties, so as to counteract or compensate the effect on its 
 trade of bounties given by Foreign Governments, or any 
 other protective measures of those Governments ? 
 
 R. GlFFEN. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 Is the adoption of Gold as a monetary standard by other 
 nations a source of danger to the commerce of this country ? 
 and, if so, is it possible or desirable to prevent it by an 
 agreement between England and the chief mercantile nations 
 to adopt a double standard of gold and silver ? 
 
 H. H. GIBBS. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Ought any of the expenses of poor relief to be borne by 
 the State ? Lord E. FITZMAURICE. 
 
 June 3rd. 
 
 What ought, in an economical point of view, to be the 
 principles of the Bankruptcy Law ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 Is it in accordance with economical principles to encourage 
 a tenant, when just entering on a farm, or when taking an 
 addition to his holding, seriously to diminish or exhaust his 
 capital by paying a large " fine " to his landlord, or a large 
 sum for the " goodwill " to his predecessor in the occupation ? 
 
 Earl FORTESCUE.
 
 106 Political Economy Club 1881 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Has a Decline in Agricultural production in recent years 
 been the only, or main, cause of the recent Agricultural 
 depression ; and, if not, to what other cause or causes 
 mainly is the depression to be ascribed ? 
 
 R. GIFFEN. 
 
 1882. February yd. 
 
 Have the prophecies of the progress of Free Trade, made 
 
 at the time of the Repeal of the Corn Laws, been falsified, 
 
 / and is there any reason arising from the constitution of 
 
 human nature to believe that their complete fulfilment must 
 
 be indefinitely postponed ? W. STEBBING. 
 
 March yd. 
 
 What ground is there for asserting that the old economical 
 doctrine that the precious Metals depend ultimately for their 
 value on the cost of production should be qualified ; and, 
 if there be any such ground, to what extent ? 
 
 H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 March 315*. 
 
 What relation does the Ricardian theory of Rent bear to 
 the actual economic facts in England and Scotland ? 
 
 A. J. BALFOUR. 
 
 May 5/A. 
 
 Having regard to the present ratio of increase of popula- 
 tion in India, how is the population to be fed ? 
 
 J. CAIRD.
 
 1882 Questions 107 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 Are there any economic arrangements by which the desire 
 of the workman for shorter hours of labour may be recon- 
 ciled with the increasing use and costliness of machinery ? 
 
 F. HARRISON. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 The question whether it is practicable or expedient to 
 compel Railway Companies to treat all customers equally, 
 without regard to competition ; and, if so, by what standard 
 are railway charges to be regulated ? T. H. FARRER. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 What are the objections to Dual Ownership of Land ? 
 and are there cases where the advantages of the system 
 predominate over the objections ? G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 1883. February 2nd. 
 
 Would the Nationalisation of the Land, as proposed by 
 Mr. Henry George, lead to a material improvement in the 
 condition of the masses of the people ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Is it true that Population tends naturally to increase 
 faster than subsistence ? E. F. LEVESON-GOWER. 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 Whether the tendency of recent investigations in Eco- 
 nomic Science has not been to bring about a method of 
 treatment, and an attitude in regard to practical applica- 
 tions, which differ in important respects from the method 
 and attitude characteristic of the School of Ricardo and 
 the two Mills ? H. S. FOXWELL.
 
 io8 Political Economy Club 1883 
 
 May qth. 
 
 Will the economic gain to the United Kingdom from the 
 construction of the Channel Tunnel compensate the outlay 
 for military works and other military expenses which will 
 be required in order to make the defences of the country 
 against invasion no more insecure than they are now ? 
 
 R. GlFFEN. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 Is there sufficient prospect of advantage to be derived 
 from encouraging forest cultivation in England to justify 
 the State in taking any steps to promote the study of 
 forestry ; and, if so, what would be the best course to 
 adopt ? Sir J. LUBBOCK. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 Have wages fallen in recent years, along with the prices 
 of commodities ; and, if not, why not ? H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 Is the wealth of the country increased or diminished by 
 insurance ? Sir T. H. FARRER. 
 
 1884. February ist. 
 
 What are the circumstances, if any, which in this country 
 would justify the State or municipal authorities in pro- 
 viding for a contribution to the cost of improved dwellings 
 for the poorer classes ? Lord DALHOUSIE. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 In what way can the light gold now circulating be best 
 replaced by coin of full weight, and on whom should the 
 loss involved fall ? W. FOWLER.
 
 1884 Questions 109 
 
 April ^th. 
 
 What mode of regulating the wages of large bodies of 
 operatives is, under modern industrial conditions, best 
 calculated to prevent suspension of work, and to promote 
 the prosperity of the trade in which the operatives are 
 employed ? D. DALE. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 
 What is the difference between a landlord and a money 
 lender ? H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 What are the economic advantages of maintaining the 
 political connection between the United Kingdom and its 
 Colonies ? A. J. BALFOUR. 
 
 Jul 
 
 Has the Suez Canal been largely beneficial to the world's 
 trade in proportion to the amount of that trade affected by 
 it, and has it been beneficial, or the reverse, to the trade 
 and shipping interests of the United Kingdom ? 
 
 R. GIFFEN. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 How far do the principles by which the quasi eleemosynary 
 action of the State in provision for the destitute, support 
 of elementary education, &c., should be governed, differ 
 from those which should regulate the eleemosynary action 
 of private individuals ? 
 
 H. SIDGWICK.
 
 no Political Economy Club 1885 
 
 1885. February 6th. 
 
 Are there any important economical advantages to be 
 gained by European countries from their appropriating 
 and colonising territory unoccupied or inhabited only by 
 an uncivilised population ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Is it an economic law that the returns in agriculture 
 tend to diminish proportionately to the labour employed 
 upon it ? E. F. LEVESON-GOWER. 
 
 April loth. 
 
 Is there sufficient evidence to prove that the fall of 
 prices of commodities in the wholesale markets in recent 
 years is due in any degree to the diminished supply of gold 
 from the mines and the increased demand for that metal 
 in gold-using countries ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 May Sth. 
 
 What are the chief differences in the positions assumed 
 by and towards political economists to-day and in the 
 last generation ? L. H. COURTNEY. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 How far would theories of population be affected by 
 resorting to classified statistics rather than to gross totals 
 of the numbers of the people ? F. HARRISON. 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Is the enclosure of Commons and Waste Lands an economic 
 gain to the people ? H. R. GRENFELL.
 
 1885 Questions in 
 
 December ^th. 
 
 Would it be economically advantageous to the community 
 or consistent with sound economic principles in England 
 for the State to empower local authorities to purchase 
 agricultural land compulsorily, and let it in small farms, 
 providing the purchase-money and the necessary equip- 
 ment of houses and farm buildings at the charge of the 
 taxpayers ? F. HARRISON. 
 
 1886. February $th, 
 
 Is the political connection of Ireland with Great Britain 
 an economic gain or loss to the people and Government 
 of Great Britain ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 Ought a claim for pecuniary payment for the product 
 of an author's brains to be granted in consideration of the 
 author's property in the product, or to be treated as a 
 demand for the recognition of an exceptional privilege ? 
 
 W. FRASER RAE. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 Assuming that there has been an appreciation of gold, 
 is it to the advantage or disadvantage of the country, and 
 what are its economic effects ? G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 What precise interpretation is to be given to the generally 
 accepted rule of equality of Taxation ? H. SIDGWICK.
 
 112 Political Economy Club 1886 
 
 June ^th, 
 
 Is International Bimetallism practicable ? and, if so, 
 will it prevent or mitigate a fall in general prices from 
 period to period ? J. B. MARTIN. 
 
 December yd. 
 
 Would a great increase in the magnitude of States diminish 
 the ill effects of the altered feeling towards the doctrines 
 of Political Economy, and of the tendency to disregard 
 them developed during recent years ? 
 
 Colonel R. JACKSON. 
 
 1887. February 4th. 
 
 What monetary System is best calculated to avoid the 
 evils which are now caused by changes in the values of 
 Gold and Silver ? Professor MARSHALL. 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Under the existing conditions of Land Tenure in Ireland, 
 is the combination of tenants for abatements of Rent in 
 periods of agricultural depression economically justifiable ? 
 
 G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 What is the meaning and what is the effect of an appre- 
 ciation or depreciation of the Money Standard ? 
 
 Sir T. H. FARRER. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 Has the development of industry and the increase of 
 income and wealth in the United Kingdom been at a less 
 rate in the last ten years than in the period immediately
 
 1887 Questions 113 
 
 preceding, and, if so, what are the causes of the diminution 
 in the rate of increase ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 June loth. 
 
 Do the assumptions on which the received argument for 
 Free Trade rests correspond exactly and universally to 
 economic facts ? H. SIDGWICK. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 Whether there are not, at the present time, special 
 reasons for the issue of i notes in England, and what are 
 the principles upon which such an issue might be most 
 conveniently conducted ? H. S. FOXWELL. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Is it possible to frame a real theory of Wages which 
 takes no account of the amount of capital existing and the 
 mode of its employment ? W. C. SIDGWICK. 
 
 1888. February yd. 
 
 On what ground can it be asserted that the system of 
 Limited Liability has had any effect in causing the depres- 
 sion of trade ; and, if there be any ground for the assertion, 
 would it be possible to recur to the old system ? 
 
 H. R. GRENFELL. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Is the supply and demand for the precious metals as 
 money one of the factors in determining the ratio at which 
 they exchange for commodities ; and can supply and 
 demand be such a factor without the quantity of the precious 
 
 P. B.C. H
 
 H4 Political Economy Club 1888 
 
 metals available for use as money materially affecting that 
 ratio ? H. H. GIBBS. 
 
 April 
 
 Is any conflict of interest to be feared in England between 
 Labour and Capital on the question of State interference 
 with industry ? C. BOOTH. 
 
 May nth. 
 
 Since Malthus first propounded his doctrine of popula- 
 tion, what have been the chief experiences bearing upon it ? 
 
 E. CHAD WICK. 
 
 June 8th. 
 
 Is the present rate of Military Expenditure by the chief 
 European nations financially exhausting, or an " intolerable 
 burden " on the communities affected ? and, if it should 
 be diminished, would the accumulation of capital and 
 wealth be materially increased ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 What economic objections are there to the system of 
 Dual Ownership of land in Ireland ? Can they be cured 
 by converting tenants into full owners by loans from the 
 State, repayable by instalments spread over fifty years ? 
 
 G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 1889. February ist. 
 
 If the leading Governments of the world should agree 
 to coin gold and silver at a fixed ratio, is there any reason 
 to believe that the market ratio would conform or approxi- 
 mate to the legal ratio ? L. H. COURTNEY.
 
 1889 Questions 115 
 
 March ist. 
 
 Would it be expedient to sanction any deviation from 
 the policy of Free Trade in order to establish a Customs 
 Union throughout the Empire ? W. FRASER RAE. 
 
 April $th. 
 
 Is the New Wages Theory to the effect that the surplus 
 production of the community, after paying rent, interest, 
 and profit, must be received by the labourer reconcilable 
 with the theory of economic rent ? And, is it true ? 
 
 J. E. C. MUNRO. 
 
 May -yrd. 
 
 Is the formation of " Trusts " beneficial in an economic 
 point of view ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 May 
 
 Is the principle of Curative Legislation, by allowances 
 on attaining old age and against accidents from machinery, 
 as adopted for the wage classes in Germany, as economical 
 as the principle of Preventive Legislation and the con- 
 centration of responsibility on those who have the best 
 means of prevention, after the manner proposed for the 
 regulation of factories in this country ? 
 
 Sir E. CHADWICK. 
 
 July 5th. 
 
 Are the anomalies and defects of the present system of 
 Bank-note Issue in the United Kingdom so great as to call 
 for remedial legislation, notwithstanding the inconveniences 
 attending any extensive measure of currency reform ? 
 
 J. B. MARTIN.
 
 n6 Political Economy Club 1889 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 How has the power of Trade Unions to influence rates 
 of wages and hours of labour been affected by the Social 
 and Economic changes of recent years ? 
 
 Professor MARSHALL. 
 
 1890. February jth. 
 
 Can the incidence of local rates be determined by legis- 
 lation ? J. F. MOULTON. 
 
 March jth. 
 
 In what circumstances, if any, is progressive taxation 
 that is, the imposition of a higher rate of charge on large 
 amounts of property, or income, or turnover of business, 
 than on smaller amounts economically justifiable and 
 expedient ? G. H. MURRAY. 
 
 April nth. 
 
 Is a further increase of Population (in the British Isles) 
 desirable in the interests of the State ; and at what point, 
 if any, will such increase cease to be desirable ? 
 
 F. W. BUXTON. 
 
 May gth. 
 
 Are Councils of Arbitration and of Conciliation to be 
 recommended as a means of diminishing the virulence of 
 Labour Disputes ? Sir BERNHARD SAMUELSON. 
 
 June 6th. 
 
 To what extent do laws declaring the standard for money 
 and what is unlimited legal tender affect the demand for 
 the Standard monetary substance ? And are they more
 
 1890 Questions 117 
 
 or less important as regards such demand than other 
 monetary laws and regulations ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 July qth. 
 
 What ought to be the basis of compensation, in the 
 case of the expropriation for public purposes of private 
 property or rights ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 December $th. 
 
 To what extent is it expedient for Reserve Banks in times 
 of Monetary Crisis to make advances on Doubtful Securities 
 which can only be realised with great delay ? 
 
 . R. GIFFEN. 
 
 1891. February 6th. 
 
 How far are such processes as " Social Ostracism," 
 " Exclusive Dealing," and " Trade Rules enforcing regula- 
 tions by refusing to work or deal with persons infringing 
 them," justifiable, economically or otherwise, on behalf 
 of the majority of a Community or Trade for the purpose 
 of enforcing their will on a minority ; and how far is it 
 expedient to attempt to put down such action by the 
 Criminal Law ? G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 
 Is it possible, by the use of i notes, to increase the 
 Gold Reserve of the Country ; and, if so, subject to what 
 regulations is it expedient that such issue should be made ? 
 
 J. B. MARTIN. 
 
 April loth. 
 
 What effect would the introduction of an Eight Hours 
 Day in Mines have on the production of Coal and the Wages 
 of Miners ? J. E. C. MUNRO.
 
 n8 Political Economy Club 1891 
 
 May 8th. 
 
 On whom does the burden of Rates at present fall ; and 
 is it desirable, on economical grounds, to make any change 
 in the incidence of this burden ? G. H. MURRAY. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 Considering that the National Debt is almost entirely 
 held by British subjects, that it bears a small proportion 
 to the wealth of the country, and that it is a safe and market- 
 able investment, is it desirable to repay or reduce it ? 
 
 HERBERT C. GIBBS. 
 
 July yd. 
 
 Is it expedient, either on social or economical grounds, 
 that steps should be taken to check the Immigration of 
 Indigent Foreigners, and the consequent cheapening of 
 English Labour ? F. W. BUXTON. 
 
 December ^th. 
 
 What is the effect (i) on wages, (ii) on profits, of a limita- 
 tion of the hours of labour (a) general, (6) in some trades, 
 imposed by ( a ) the State, (/3) an effective combination of 
 labourers ? W. C. SIDGWICK. 
 
 1892. February $th. 
 
 Are there any valid economical objections to National 
 Pensions to the Aged ? J. FLETCHER MOULTON. 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Is there any sound reason why Telephone Companies 
 should be refused such statutory powers as would enable 
 them to conduct their business with the greatest advantage 
 to the community ? RAYNSFORD JACKSON.
 
 1892 Questions 119 
 
 April ist. 
 
 On what principles and subject to what limits should 
 contributions to Charitable Relief be solicited or encouraged ? 
 
 J. B. MARTIN. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 What is likely to be the economic result of the creation 
 of small ownerships of land in England by Local Authorities 
 with the aid of State credit ? G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 What would be the advantages or disadvantages of an 
 uniform Customs Tariff for the British Empire, so constructed 
 as to operate differentially in favour of British Possessions 
 and against foreign countries ? G. H. MURRAY. 
 
 July 5th. 
 
 Is it desirable that Governments, Imperial or Municipal, 
 should fix a minimum wage to be paid by the contractors 
 they employ ? W. C. SIDGWICK. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Is the development of uncivilised countries by means 
 of Chartered Companies calculated to promote most effectu- 
 ally the commercial interests of those regions and of the 
 mother country ? Lord BRASSEY. 
 
 1893. February yd. 
 
 Is the assumption correct that a country which has to 
 pay " tribute " to another must do so by an equivalent 
 increase in the export of its commodities ? 
 
 Sir GEORGE CHESNEY.
 
 I2O Political Economy Club 1893 
 
 March yd. 
 
 To what extent, if any, is it, possible to develop manu- 
 facturing industry in new countries by means of protective 
 import duties ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 April I4/A. 
 
 Under what conditions, if any, is the burden of a Customs 
 duty not borne by the consumers of the imported com- 
 modity ? Professor EDGE WORTH. 
 
 May $th. 
 
 In the event of further change in the land system, would 
 it be desirable to rely mainly upon giving local authorities 
 further power to acquire land ? R. MUNRO FERGUSON. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 When it is held that the value of money should be stable, 
 in what sense is stability of value to be understood, and by 
 what test is it to be ascertained ? Professor FOXWELL. 
 
 July jth. 
 
 Are the economical conditions which determine the 
 price of labour substantially different from those which 
 determine the price of commodities ? 
 
 Sir RAYMOND WEST. 
 
 December ist. 
 
 On what economic grounds can the demand for a " Living 
 Wage " be defended ? F. W. BUXTON. 
 
 1894. February gth. 
 
 Is the English system of Poor Relief based upon sound 
 economic principles ? Professor SIDGWICK.
 
 1894 Questions 121 
 
 March 2nd. 
 
 Would it be expedient for the Indian Government at 
 once to re-open the Mints for the coinage of Silver as stan- 
 dard money ? R. GIFFEN. 
 
 April 6th. 
 
 Is there any justification on economic grounds for legis- 
 lative interference with the free migration of labour into 
 this country ? G. H. MURRAY. 
 
 May ^th. 
 
 What changes are necessary in the Death Duties to 
 render them a true capital tax ? SYDNEY BUXTON. 
 
 June ist. 
 
 By what measures can the local currency of a Colony 
 be raised to or maintained at par value ? 
 
 W. FRASER RAE. 
 
 July 6th. 
 
 " The amount of goods and of transactions being the same, 
 the value of money is inversely as its quantity multiplied 
 by what is called the rapidity of circulation " (Mill, Bk. iii. 
 Chap. viii. Sec. 3). What meaning must be attached to 
 " money " to make this proposition true ? 
 
 Professor NICHOLSON. 
 
 December jth. 
 
 To what extent is the policy of the Merchandise Marks 
 Act economically defensible, or its working economically 
 advantageous ? J. F. MOULTON.
 
 122 Political Economy Club 1895 
 
 1895. February ist. 
 
 What account of the causes governing general wages 
 are we to substitute for the so-called Wages Fund doctrine ? 
 
 Professor MARSHALL. 
 
 March ist. 
 
 What are the best means of dealing permanently with 
 the question of the unemployed ? J. MACDONELL. 
 
 April 5th. 
 
 Is there reason to fear that along with the loss of pre- 
 eminence in leading manufactures, such as Cotton, Iron, 
 and Steel, which seems to be threatened, this Country 
 will also surfer a loss or diminution of real prosperity ? 
 
 W. STEBBING. 
 
 May yd. 
 
 What are the conditions on which this Country could 
 properly and reasonably be expected to join in an Inter- 
 national Monetary Conference in the present state of English 
 public opinion ? Professor Fox WELL. 
 
 June i^th. 
 
 In what sense is it true that the extension of territory 
 creates new markets for our productions ? 
 
 B. MALLET. 
 
 July 5th. 
 
 Whether the species of bimetallism in which the standard 
 is gold and silver (as proposed by Professor Marshall in his 
 evidence before the Royal Commission) is not preferable 
 to the bimetallism in which the standard is gold or silver 
 (as commonly proposed) ? Professor EDGE WORTH.
 
 1895 Questions 123 
 
 December 6th. 
 
 Is it possible to determine the proper limits of State 
 interference in Economic matters ? E. HUBBARD. 
 
 1896. February jth. 
 
 What will be the effects of the construction of a Canal 
 through the Isthmus of Panama on Trade and Commerce ? 
 
 Lord E. FITZMAURICE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 Do Colonies pay ? W. C. SIDGWICK. 
 
 April loth. 
 
 How would the volume, efficiency, or permanence of 
 enterprise be affected by the substitution of public for 
 private expenditure ? C. BOOTH. 
 
 May i st. 
 
 On what principle should Thrift be encouraged by the 
 State? J. B. MARTIN. 
 
 June $th. 
 
 Is our present system of Local Taxation in rural districts 
 equitable or expedient ? ST. LOE STRACHEY. 
 
 July ^th. 
 
 What have been the causes of the depression of Agri- 
 culture during the last fourteen years. ? 
 
 G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 December <\th. 
 
 Would the defensive strength of England be increased 
 by any change of her commercial policy with regard to her 
 Colonies and Dependencies ? J. WESTLAKE.
 
 124 Political Economy Club 1897 
 
 1897. February $th. 
 
 What would be the effect on savings and habits of thrift 
 of (i) Assisted or (2) Gratuitous Pensions in old age ? 
 
 C. BOOTH. 
 
 March $th. 
 
 What changes, if any, are required by justice in the 
 taxation of the United Kingdom, assuming Ireland to be 
 not entitled to separate treatment ? H. HIGGS 
 
 April 2nd. 
 
 What Economic principles determine the remuneration 
 of literary work ? SIDNEY LEE. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 On what principles should the taxation of Tobacco and 
 Alcohol be regulated ? W. C. SIDGWICK. 
 
 June 4th. 
 
 How can the cost of Education be best provided for 
 from an Economic point of view ? B. MALLET. 
 
 December yd. 
 
 How far have the workmen a right to interfere in the 
 management of the industry in which they are employed ? 
 
 ST. LOE STRACHEY. 
 
 \. February ^th. 
 
 What changes, if any, are necessary or desirable in the 
 present Currency arrangements in India ? 
 
 Sir RAYMOND WEST.
 
 1898 Questions 125 
 
 March ^th. 
 
 Is the population of Ireland overtaxed ? 
 
 Professor EDGEWORTH. 
 
 April ist. 
 
 Is it desirable that Municipalities should, under certain 
 conditions, undertake the Housing of the Poor ? 
 
 F. W. BUXTON. 
 
 May 6th. 
 
 What evidence is there of the existence of Cycles of 
 Trade in modern history ? H. LLEWELLYN SMITH. 
 
 June yd. 
 
 Ought the State to require payment from individual 
 citizens for services rendered directly by it to them ? 
 
 S. E. SPRING RICE. 
 
 July ist. 
 
 Have the Economic bases of Free Trade been affected, 
 and if so, to what extent, by the recent growth of German 
 Commerce ? Professor HEWINS. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 
 Under what conditions should the State protect bor- 
 rowers ? Sir W. LEE WARNER. 
 
 1899. February 
 
 Are good securities tending to rise in value when not 
 influenced by disturbances in the Money Market ? 
 
 WYNNARD HOOPER.
 
 126 Political Economy Club 1899 
 
 March yd. 
 
 What are the economic arguments in favour of Monopoly ? 
 
 H. HIGGS. 
 
 April i^th. 
 
 What are the right principles of Taxation with regard 
 to the nationality or residence of persons and the situation 
 of property ? 
 
 J. WESTLAKE. 
 
 May 5/A. 
 
 Is it expedient and possible that there should be an 
 international agreement for the arrest and reduction of 
 Armaments ? 
 
 G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 
 How far is the present price of Consols due to special 
 and transitory causes, irrespective of the Government 
 credit ? and at what price could a large amount of the 
 stock be issued if a great emergency should arise ? 
 
 Sir R. GIFFEN. 
 
 July 7th. 
 
 Is the establishment of a Gold Standard, with or without 
 a Gold Currency, the true remedy for the evils inherent 
 in the present position of the currency of India ; or would 
 the return to the free coinage of Silver in Indian Mints 
 
 be a preferable expedient ? 
 
 W. FOWLER.
 
 1899 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 127 
 
 1899. December 1st. 
 Mr. F. W. BUXTON, Chair. 
 
 Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Fraser Rae, Stebbing, Spring Rice, Courtney, 
 Mallet, Higgs, LI. Smith, Professor Hewins, Foxwell. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Bishop, Mr. Chalmers. 
 
 The balance stated to be standing to the credit of the Club on 
 December i, 1899, was 508 33. nd., as against 524 153. lid. in 
 December, 1898. 
 
 The resignations of Sir Edward Watkin and Mr. Sydney 
 Buxton were announced. 
 
 The question of removing from the Inns of Court Hotel was 
 discussed, and the Secretary was authorised to make inquiries. 
 
 What is the effect of the War on the movements of gold 
 between this country and South Africa ? And what would 
 be the effect on the world's supplies of a prolonged suspension 
 of gold production in the Transvaal ? 
 
 Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 [Owing to Mr. Hooper's indisposition Sir Robert Giffen read 
 his notes and opened the discussion.] 
 
 1900. February 2nd. 
 Sir RAYMOND WEST, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Westlake, LI. Smith, Stebbing, Macdonell, Sir W. Lee 
 Warner, Mr. Fraser Rae, Professor Hewins, Foxwell, Mr. W. 
 Hooper, Higgs, Spring Rice, Mallet, Sir G. Murray. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Annan Bryce. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Thomas Mackay and Mr. 
 Frederick Huth Jackson was announced.
 
 128 Political Economy Club 1900 
 
 In what manner would the consolidation of the Empire 
 be likely to affect the economic policy of the United King- 
 dom ? Professor HEWINS. 
 
 [This was the first meeting held at the Hotel Cecil.] 
 
 March 2nd. 
 Professor HEWINS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. St. Loe Strachey, Lee, Mackay, Higgs, Courtney, Spring 
 Rice, Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Fraser Rae, Lord E. Fitzmaurice, 
 Sir R. West, R. Giffen, Mr. Macdonell, W. Hooper, Westlake, 
 Stehbing, Hubbard, Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Sir John Scott, Mr. Bishop. 
 
 A question was asked as to the manner in which a portion of 
 the balance might be expended, and it was agreed, on Sir R. 
 Giffen's motion, to appoint a Committee to consider the subject. 
 
 How far is the Income Tax disqualified by theoretical or 
 practical defects from playing an increasing part in our 
 system of Taxation ? Mr. MALLET. 
 
 April 6th. 
 Sir ROBERT GIFFEN, CJiair. 
 
 Mr. Macdonell, Courtney, Professor Sidgwick, Sir W. Lee 
 Warner, Mr. Mallet, Mackay, Higgs, Jackson, Sir R. West. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. G. W. Vidal, Mr. Abrahams. 
 
 How far is the severity of the present or of recent Indian 
 famines due to faults of British administration ? 
 
 Sir W. LEE WARNER.
 
 igoo Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 129 
 
 May ^th. 
 Sir W. LEE WARNER, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Stebbing, Sir B. Samuelson, Mr. Fraser Rae, 
 Gibbs, Higgs, Booth, Mackay, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Macdonell, 
 Spring Rice, Mallet, Professor Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. T. LI. Davies, P. Duncan, W. M. Acworth, 
 Dr. Murray. 
 
 Are the obstacles to a good and sufficient supply of 
 working-class dwellings in the ordinary course of trade 
 insuperable ? Mr. MACKAY. 
 
 June i$th. 
 Lord WELBY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Macdonell, Sir R. Giffen, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Mr. W. Hooper, Mackay, Westlake, Higgs, Sir R. West, Mr. 
 Stebbing, Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. A. G. Scovell, Mr. Withers. 
 
 It was decided to hold a meeting in July. 
 
 Ought the practice of soliciting voluntary contributions 
 towards objects for which the State, or other public author- 
 ities, might properly provide out of public funds to be 
 encouraged or discouraged ? Mr. STEBBING. 
 
 July 6th. 
 Mr. W. STEBBING, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Spring Rice, Mackay, Fraser Rae, Courtney, 
 Westlake, Jackson, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Stebbing, Sir B. Samuelson, 
 Mr. Macdonell, W. Hooper, Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Mallet.
 
 130 Political Economy Club 1900 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Mollison, Professor J. Mavor (Toronto), Mr. W. 
 Koch. 
 
 Is the existing prosperity of our trade and commerce, and 
 with it the growth of national revenue, likely to be seriously 
 affected for the worse by permanent or transitory causes 
 now in operation ? Sir ROBERT GIFFEN. 
 
 December is/. 
 Mr. CHARLES BOOTH, Chair. 
 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Westlake, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Macdonell, 
 Professor Hewins, Mr. Lee, Stebbing, Higgs, Mackay, Mallet, 
 Eraser Rae, Hooper, Buxton, LI. Smith, Spring Rice. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Fowell Buxton, Mr. Gleadowe. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. W. M. Acworth to the vacancy 
 caused by the death of Professor Henry Sidgwick was announced, 
 and Sir Robert Giffen, in Mr. Courtney's absence, moved the 
 following resolution which was to be entered in the minutes and 
 forwarded to Mrs. Sidgwick : 
 
 The members of the Political Economy Club take this, the 
 earliest opportunity, of recording their sense of loss in the death 
 of their beloved and honoured colleague, Henry Sidgwick. He 
 brought to their debates the engaging sweetness of temper that 
 always distinguished him, and whilst his perfect candour made 
 him weigh and appreciate the arguments adduced on all sides 
 on any question, he never failed to show his penetrating originality 
 in seizing on the essential points in controversy, and in the 
 luminous statement of his own conclusions. The Club will long 
 miss the assistance of his clear and powerful intelligence. 
 
 The Secretary then announced the resignation by Mr. Henry 
 Grenfell of his membership and of the Treasurership. On the 
 motion of Mr. Fraser Rae, seconded by Mr. Booth, the Secretary 
 was requested to convey to Mr. Grenfell the thanks of the Club
 
 rgoo Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 131 
 
 for the long and valuable services he had rendered them as their 
 Treasurer and their regret at his resignation. 
 
 Mr. F. W. Buxton was proposed by the Committee as Treasurer, 
 and elected. 
 
 The Balance standing to the credit of the Club on December i, 
 1900, was stated to be 493, as against 508 33. nd. on December 
 I, 1899 ; the reduction in the balance being due to exceptional 
 expenditure on printing during the year. 
 
 Is England or Scotland the more conveniently sized state 
 to govern ? Mr. SPRING RICE. 
 
 1901. February 8th. 
 
 [Postponed from February i on account of the death of the 
 Queen.] 
 
 Mr. SPRING RICE, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Buxton, Strachey, Professor Foxwell, Mr. 
 Higgs, Professor Marshall, Mr. Hubbard, Mallet, Mackay, Gibbs, 
 Acworth, Macdonell, Lee, Fraser Rae, Sir Raymond West, 
 Mr. Westlake, Jackson. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Jocelyn Pelham, Lord Addington, Mr. Mathieson, 
 Dr. James Bonar. 
 
 The Secretary announced that he had received letters of thanks 
 from Mrs. H. Sidgwick and Mr. Henry Grenfell for the resolutions 
 passed at the last meeting. 
 
 To what extent has the development of limited liability in 
 connection with industrial and commercial enterprise in this 
 country been beneficial or otherwise ? Mr. JACKSON.
 
 132 Political Economy Club 1901 
 
 March ist. 
 Sir GEORGE MURRAY, Chair. 
 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Mackay, Fraser Rae, Macdonell, 
 Sir R. Giffen, Mr. LI. Smith, Mallet, Spring Rice, Jackson, 
 Professor Hewins, Mr. Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Mr. W. 
 Hooper, Westlake, Courtney. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Roberts, Mr. Nott Bower, Mr. Worthington, 
 Mr. C. Trevelyan, M.P. 
 
 How far is it desirable that our commercial relations with 
 other countries should be regulated by treaties ? 
 
 Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH. 
 
 March 2C)th. 
 Mr. BUXTON, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Stebbing, Sir G. H. Murray, Mr. Macdonell, 
 Fraser Rae, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Booth, Sir W. Lee Warner, 
 Mr. Acworth, Lee, Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Edgeworth, Mr. LI. 
 Smith, Hooper, Professor Hewins, Mr. Mackay, Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Robert Hunter, Mr. Walter Robinson, Mr. T. LI. 
 Davies, Mr. Cecil Lubbock, Lord Farrer, Mr. Trevelyan, M.P., 
 Mr. G. Hubbard, Mr. Bowley, Mr. C. Lyell, Mr. W. Douglas. 
 
 Could the housing problem of London be solved by 
 improved means of communication ? Mr. BOOTH. 
 
 May yd. 
 Mr. WESTLAKE, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Hubbard, Buxton, Spring Rice, Mallet, Courtney, Stebbing, 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Fraser Rae, Higgs, Macdonell, Sir R. 
 Giffen, Mr. Strachey, Sir C. Dilke. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. W. Blain, Mr. A. Cole.
 
 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 133 
 
 Mr. Charles Trevelyan, M.P., proposed by Mr. Mallet and 
 seconded by Mr. Strachey, was unanimously elected. 
 
 Does the working-man contribute a sufficient proportion 
 of his income to the Revenue ? Mr. STRACHEY. 
 
 June jth. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Westlake, Macdonell, Trevelyan, Spring Rice, Acworth, 
 Mallet, Professor Foxwell, Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Hooper. 
 Professor Hewins, Mr. Fraser Rae, Stebbing, Sir B. Samuelson, 
 Sir R. West, Sir R. Giffen. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. J. S. Forbes, Mr. Clinton Dawkins, Mr. Baines 
 (L.C.C.), Mr. E. J. Wilson. 
 
 To what extent, if any, has there been a decline in the last 
 half century in the rate of growth of population in the 
 countries of Europe and the United States ? And what is 
 the bearing of the changes in such growth on ideas of 
 Imperial expansion ? Sir ROBERT GIFFEN. 
 
 July $th. 
 Mr. STEBBING, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Edgeworth, Mr. 
 Westlake, Mallet, Buxton, Mackay, Acworth, Fraser Rae, 
 Macdonell. 
 
 Visitors : Major Craigie, Colonel Goodden, Mr. Bourassa 
 (M.P., Canada), Professor Francis Walker, Mr. W. P. Reeves 
 (A.G. for New Zealand). 
 
 Is a departure from Free Trade admissible with a view to 
 widening the area of taxation ? 
 
 Sir BERNHARD SAMUELSON.
 
 134 Political Economy Club 1901 
 
 December 6th. 
 Sir GEORGE MURRAY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Hooper, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Macdonell, Professor Foxwell, 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Buxton, Jackson, Courtney, Acworth, 
 Higgs, Professor Hewins, Mr. Spring-Rice, LI. Smith, Mackay, 
 Fraser Rae, Stebbing, Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. H. Beeton, G. H. Pember, A. Henderson, Dixon 
 Davies, Granet, E. C. Grenfell, Col. Sir Herbert Jekyll. 
 
 The Balance standing to the credit of the Club on December 6, 
 1901, was stated to be 476 los. 8d., as against 493 145. 9d. 
 on December i, 1900. 
 
 Is the depreciation of the value of English Railway 
 Securities likely to be permanent ? Mr. ACWORTH. 
 
 1902. February jth. 
 Lord AVEBURY, Cluiir. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Professor Marshall, Mr. Acworth, Professor 
 Foxwell, Mr. Strachey, Sir David Dale, Mr. Mackay, Sir R. West, 
 Mr. Spring- Rice, Higgs, Shaw-Lefevre, Macdonell, Stebbing, 
 Mallet, Jackson, Westlake, Trevelyan, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. LI. 
 Smith, Buxton, Hubbard. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. A. G. L. Rogers, Duckworth, Benjamin Kidd, 
 Rye, Hope Morley, Clinton Dawkins. 
 
 Is the development of the modern industrial trust beneficial 
 to commercial progress, and is it defensible on economic 
 grounds ? Mr. HUBBARD. 
 
 March yth. 
 Mr. HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Courtney, Stebbing, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Higgs, Ac- 
 worth, Westlake, Mallet, Mackay, Fraser Rae, Sir W. Lee
 
 1902 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 135 
 
 Warner, Sir R. West, Mr. Booth, Shaw-Lefevre, Professor 
 Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Hill, Mr. Bray. 
 
 Is there a crisis in British industry and commerce, and if 
 so, to what extent can it be met by the organization of 
 education ? Professor HEWINS. 
 
 April nth. 
 Lord E. FITZMAURICE, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Buxton, Stebbing, Macdonell, Sir R. West, Mr. Courtney, 
 LI. Smith, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Booth, Jackson, Wynnard Hooper, 
 Westlake, Mackay, Mallet, Trevelyan, Lee, Higgs, Professor 
 Fox well, Edge worth. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. E. J. Wilson, Wilson Fox, Leadam, Ernest 
 Aves, W. H. Grenfell, M.P., T. H. Elliott, T. LI. Davies. 
 
 The death of Lord Kimberley was referred to, and regret 
 expressed at the great loss thereby sustained by the Club. 
 
 Would any of the schemes which have been proposed 
 for laying a special impost on site value be an improvement 
 on the present system of taxation in this country ? 
 
 Professor EDGEWORTH. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 Professor HEWINS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Jackson, Sir C. Dilke, Sir R. Giffen, Professor Westlake, 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Macdonell, Mackay, Buxton, Mallet. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. B. Holland. 
 
 It was decided that in view of the Coronation no meeting 
 should be held in July.
 
 136 Political Economy Club 1902 
 
 What are the difficulties in estimating the amount of 
 the National Income for purposes of Taxation ? 
 
 Mr. MALLET. 
 
 June 6th. 
 Sir R. GIFFEN, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Hooper, Macdonell, Stebbing, Sir R. West, Sir B. Samuel- 
 son, Mr. Rae, Courtney, Buxton, LI. Smith, Mackay, Trevelyan, 
 Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Spring-Rice. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Mollison, Carnegie, Udny Yule, Steel Maitland. 
 
 Is there any justification for the doctrine that a definite 
 proportion should be maintained between direct and indirect 
 taxation ? Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 December $th. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Stebbing, Fraser Rae, LI. Smith, Booth, Buxton, 
 Lord Brassey, Messrs. Macdonell, Acworth, Sidney Lee, Sir C. 
 Dilke, Messrs. Mackay, Gibbs, Professor Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Holt, Dr. Morrison, Messrs. I. S. Leadam, 
 Harold Cox, Thos. Barclay, Stuart Fraser, A. A. Booth. 
 
 The Secretary was requested to convey to Mrs. Spring-Rice an 
 expression of the sincere regret of the Club at the loss which they, 
 in common with the public, had sustained by the death of Mr. 
 Stephen Spring-Rice. 
 
 The Balance standing to the credit of the Club on December 5, 
 1902, was stated to be 496 gs. gd., as against 476 zos. 8d. on 
 December 6, 1901. 
 
 Are the engagements recently made with the Cunard 
 
 Company justified by the circumstances ? 
 
 Lord BRASSEY.
 
 1903 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 137 
 
 1903. February 6th. 
 Mr. MACDONELL, Chair. 
 
 Professor Foxwell, Mr. Courtney, Sir R. Giffen, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. LI. Smith, Professor Hewins, Mr. Acworth, 
 Professor Marshall, Messrs. Mallet, Hubbard, Buxton, Sir W. Lee 
 Warner, Messrs. Stebbing, Mackay, Gibbs, Westlake. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. E. A. Whittuck, Mr. Gibson, Mr. C. P. Sanger. 
 
 What should be the place of Political Economy in Educa- 
 tion ? Mr. WESTLAKE. 
 
 March 6th. 
 Mr. ST. LOE STRACHEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Courtney, Stebbing, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Hooper, Professor 
 Hewins, Messrs. Mallet, Mackay, Sir G. H. Murray, Sir W. Lee 
 Warner, Mr. Trevelyan. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Henry Lee Warner and the Rev. Prebendary 
 Hedgeland. 
 
 Can any large and permanent reductions be immediately 
 made in the national expenditure ? 
 
 Mr. TREVELYAN. 
 
 April yd. 
 Mr. HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Macdonell, Sir R. Giffen, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. 
 Wynnard Hooper, Stebbing, Strachey, Mallet, Westlake, Gibbs. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. C. Arbuthnot. 
 
 How far is it possible to reform the Income Tax Acts so 
 as to make the incidence more equitable, especially in the 
 case of wasting securities ? Mr. HERBERT GIBBS.
 
 138 Political Economy Club 1903 
 
 May ist. 
 Mr. MACDONELL, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Stebbing, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Courtney, Professors 
 Edgeworth, Foxwell, Messrs. Higgs, Jackson, Westlake, Mallet, 
 LI. Smith, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Acworth, Mackay, Sir B. Samuel- 
 son, Mr. Shaw Lefevre. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Carnegie, Colonel Goodden, Mr. Harold Cox, 
 Dr. Morrison, Mr. Sanger, Mr. Dunbar Buller. 
 
 What will be the economic effect of the proposed Land 
 Purchase Scheme for Ireland ? Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE. 
 
 June 12th. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Sir C. Dilke, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Stebbing, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. Macdonell, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Hubbard, 
 Mallet, Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Higgs, Buxton, 
 Sir B. Samuelson, Mr. Jackson. 
 
 Visitors : Professor Jenks (Ithaca, U.S.A.), Professor Andreades 
 (Athens), Mr. Cockayne. 
 
 To what extent has the position of the Bank of England 
 changed in recent years in comparison with (a) similar 
 institutions abroad, and (b) London Joint Stock Banks ? 
 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON. 
 
 July 
 Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, Chair. 
 
 Sir C. Dilke, Messrs. Acworth, Higgs, Booth, Mackay, Sir 
 W. Lee Warner, Messrs. Buxton, Stebbing, Westlake, Sir B. 
 Samuelson, Mr. MaUet, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Sidney Lee,
 
 1903 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 139 
 
 Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Gibbs, Hubbard, Macdonell, Professor 
 Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. Adams, H. Oppenheimer, W. L. Mollison, 
 R. Chalmers, Albert Gray, St. John Morrow, Viscount Morpeth. 
 
 Should closer commercial relations between the United 
 Kingdom and the Colonies be encouraged, and, if so, by 
 what means ? Professor HEWINS. 
 
 December 4th. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Higgs, Sir Raymond West, Messrs. Booth, LI. Smith, 
 Professors Edgeworth, Foxwell, Messrs. Lee, Mallet, Mackay, 
 Hubbard, Jackson, Sir W. Lee Warner, Messrs. Fraser Rae, 
 Hooper, Stebbing, Sir J. Macdonell, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Ac- 
 worth, Buxton. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Durrant, Lewis Walters, L. Scarth, R. W. 
 Cohen, Rt. Hon. H. Hobhouse, M.P., Hon. A. Elliot, M.P., 
 Lord Reay, Messrs. Blain, Atlay, Sir Fowell Buxton. 
 
 The Secretary stated that the Committee had been considering 
 the advisability of changing the day of the Club's meeting. 
 Wednesday was suggested in place of Friday, and it was decided 
 to try Wednesday provisionally during the present session. 
 
 The Balance standing to the Credit of the Club on December 4, 
 1903, was stated by the Treasurer to be 503 I2S. 3d., as against 
 
 496 gs. gd. on December 5, 1902. 
 
 
 
 Will a 2s. duty on imports of wheat from foreign countries 
 only into the United Kingdom and corresponding duties on 
 meat and dairy produce have any sensible effect in increasing 
 the production of such goods at home, or in the Colonies 
 and British Possessions ? 
 
 Sir ROBERT GIFFEN.
 
 140 Political Economy Club 1904 
 
 1904. February yd. 
 Mr. BUXTOX, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Hubbard, Courtney, Stebbing, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. 
 LI. Smith, Higgs, Mallet, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Acworth. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. George S. Gibb. 
 
 Mr. W. A. S. Hewins was elected an ordinary member (super- 
 numerary) of the Club, on his retirement from the Tooke Pro- 
 fessorship by which he ceased to be an honorary member. 
 
 Is it desirable that public money should be spent on 
 developing canals in this country ? Mr. ACWORTH. 
 
 March 2nd. 
 Sir GEORGE H. MURRAY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Buxton, Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Higgs, Lord E. Fitzmaurice, 
 Mr. Hubbard, Sir C. W. Dilke, Messrs. Courtney, Mallet, Hooper, 
 Hewins, Sir W. Lee Warner. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Rowland Blennerhassett. 
 
 Private Business : A discussion took place upon a suggestion 
 of Mr. Evelyn Hubbard to increase the members of the Club, a 
 suggestion of which the Committee had approved and upon 
 which the opinion of members had been taken by means of a 
 circular letter from the Secretary. It was agreed to amend 
 Rules I. and III. so that they should stand as follows : 
 
 RULE I. The number of members of the Club is limited to 
 forty. 
 
 RULE III. The Club may elect not more than seven 
 members from the Incumbents for the time being 
 of Professorships of Political Economy in any Uni- 
 versity in the United Kingdom, and from persons 
 who have shown themselves eminent in any branch 
 of Economic Science.
 
 1904 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 141 
 
 It was further resolved that any new member elected on this 
 occasion should pay a reduced subscription for the present year 
 
 of 2 2s. 
 
 Is the tendency to rely upon paternal Government 
 increasing, and should this be discouraged ? 
 
 Sir WILLIAM LEE WARNER. 
 
 April I3th. 
 Sir W. LEE WARNER, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Courtney, Stebbing, Booth, Acworth, Hewins, Hooper, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Hubbard, Fraser Rae, Sir Raymond 
 West, Mr. LI. Smith, Sir Charles Dilke, Sir R. Giffen, Sir J. 
 Macdonell, Messrs. Westlake, Mallet, Jackson, Gibbs, Higgs, 
 Strachey. 
 
 Visitors : Professor Oncken (Berne), Mr. John Buchan, Sir 
 Vincent Caillard, Mr. F. Fox, Hon. John Biddulph, Mr. Alfred 
 Cole, Mr. Talbot Baines, Mr. Edward Penney. 
 
 The unanimous election under Rules I. and III. (as amended 
 at the last dinner) was announced of Major Leonard Darwin and 
 Mr. Edward C. Grenfell as ordinary members, and of Professor 
 W. J. Ashley and Mr. James Bonar as honorary members. 
 
 How far is it true that Free Trade is a better foundation 
 for Empire than a protective system ? 
 
 Mr. ST. LOE STRACHEY. 
 
 May ^th. 
 Mr. ST. LOE STRACHEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Courtney, Stebbing, Sir W. Lee Warner, Major Darwin, 
 Messrs. Mackay, Grenfell, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Hubbard, 
 Fraser Rae, Bonar, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Higgs, Mallet.
 
 142 Political Economy Club 1904 
 
 Are there any sufficient grounds for the demand that the 
 State should keep a gold reserve against its Savings Banks 
 liabilities ? Professor FOXWELL. 
 
 June ist. 
 Professor FOXWELL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Shaw Lefevre, Buxton, Stebbing, Lord Welby, Sir G. 
 Murray, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. LI. Smith, Hooper, Courtney, 
 Westlake, Mallet, Jackson, Grenfell, Higgs, Professors Edge- 
 worth, Ashley, Sir Raymond West, Sir B. Samuelson. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Wright-Taylor, Hare, Campbell, Professor 
 Flux (Montreal). 
 
 What is the use of gold discoveries ? Mr. COURTNEY. 
 
 July 6th. 
 Mr. BUXTON, Chair. 
 
 Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Bonar, Major Darwin, Professor Edge- 
 worth, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Acworth, Westlake, Mallet, Stebbing, 
 Sir B. Samuelson, Messrs. Higgs, Hubbard, Jackson. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Prescott, Boardman, John Hugh Smith. 
 
 The unanimous election was announced of the Bishop of 
 Stepney and Mr. Hugh Bell as ordinary members of the Club. 
 
 What does a " draft on London " mean ? 
 
 Mr. JACKSON. 
 
 December jth. 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Grenfell, Buxton, Higgs, Stebbing, Professors Edge- 
 worth, Ashley, Foxwell, Messrs. Bonar, Westlake, Sir W. Lee
 
 1904 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 143 
 
 Warner, Mr. Mallet, Major Darwin, Sir Raymond West, Sir 
 J. Macdonell. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. W. Howard, Sidney Webb, Hon. Charles 
 Lawrence, Messrs. Basil Williams, H. O. Meredith, G. Udny Yule, 
 Sir Francis Gore. 
 
 The Secretary raised the question of the day of the Club's 
 meetings, which was provisionally fixed last December for 
 Wednesday, opposition having been made to the substitution 
 of Tuesday for Wednesday. The Secretary was requested to 
 make further inquiries among members as to the day which would 
 suit the majority. 
 
 The Treasurer stated that the Committee had last spring 
 decided to invest a large part of the balance in Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Four Per Cent. Debenture Stock. 375 Stock was 
 accordingly purchased at 106 per cent, (free of stamp), and 
 invested in the names of Bernard Mallet and Francis William 
 Buxton, Secretary and Treasurer respectively. 
 
 If the money had not been invested the Balance would have 
 stood at 514 is. gd., as compared with 503 I2S. 3d. in December, 
 1903. The actual balance stood in December, 1904, at 
 121 155. 2d. ; this, with the Canadian Pacific Railway Stock, at 
 the then price of in, brought the total assets of the Club up to 
 538 os. 2d. (416 55. od. +121 155. 2d.). 
 
 Some discussion took place as to the expenditure of part of 
 this balance, and Mr. Higgs, seconded by Sir William Lee Warner, 
 revived a proposal which had been made two years ago by Mr. 
 Stebbing, and moved : ' ' That a Committee, consisting of Sir 
 Robert Giffen and Mr. James Bonar, with power to add to their 
 number, should be appointed to consider the question of the 
 preparation of a history of the Political Economy Club." 
 
 The motion was carried. 
 
 Sir William Lee Warner pointed out that the usefulness of the 
 Club might be increased by an alteration of the rules as to the 
 election of Honorary Members, which would give the Club 
 greater latitude in electing men of general and political distinction.
 
 144 Political Economy Club 1904 
 
 He thought the surplus income of the Club could not be better 
 expended than in increasing the number of Honorary Members, 
 and moved that the Committee should consider some means of 
 giving effect to this proposal. The Secretary was instructed to 
 consult the Committee on the subject. 
 
 What are the criteria of progress in national prosperity 
 in the case of a country like Germany ? 
 
 Professor ASHLEY. 
 
 1905. February ist. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Llewellyn Smith, Hewins, Acworth, Professors 
 Edgeworth, Foxwell, Sir Hugh Bell, Major Darwin, Mr. Jackson, 
 Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Mallet, Wynnard Hooper, Sir G. H. Murray, 
 Sir Raymond West, Mr. Higgs. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Armitage-Smith, J. Walter, W. Blain, 
 Arthur Pinhey. 
 
 The death of Mr. Fraser Rae was reported, and the regret of 
 the Club expressed. 
 
 What are the arguments against the principle of taxation 
 for revenue only ? Mr. HIGGS. 
 
 March is/. 
 Mr. HIGGS, Chair. 
 
 Sir J. Macdonell, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Stebbing, Sidney Lee, 
 Westlake, Mallet, Hubbard, Grenfell, Sir Raymond West, Sir 
 W. Lee Warner, Messrs. Buxton, Jackson, the Bishop of 
 Stepney. 
 
 Visitors : Dr. Schuster, Hon. Egerton Hubbard, Sir William 
 Wedderburn, Sir Kenelm Digby, Mr. Sydney Buxton, M.P.
 
 1905 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 145 
 
 How is the problem of the unemployed in London to be 
 best met at the present time and in the future ? 
 
 Bishop of STEPNEY. 
 
 April $th. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Hubbard, Sir J. Macdonell, Messrs. Bonar, Buxton, 
 Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Higgs, Sidney Lee, Jackson. 
 
 Visitors : Sir T. Raleigh, Messrs. Nairne, A. C. Cole, Oppen- 
 heimer. 
 
 What is the basis of credit ? Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 Mr. HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Buxton, Stebbing, Sir Raymond West, Sir J. Mac- 
 donell, Messrs. Bonar, Higgs, Professor Westlake, Sir B. Samuel- 
 son, Mr. Trevelyan, Sir W. Lee Warner, Messrs. Mackay, Gibbs, 
 Major Darwin. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Vernon Malcolmson. 
 
 To what extent can the advantages claimed for Municipal 
 Trade be obtained by the regulation of private enterprise ? 
 
 Major DARWIN. 
 
 June jth. 
 Major DARWIN, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Shaw Lefevre, Stebbing, Sir J. Macdonell, Sir R- 
 Giffen, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Westlake, Mallet, Bonar, 
 Acworth, Higgs, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Buxton. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. F. W. Hirst, Chiozza-Money, Taylor-Innes, 
 A. B. Hepburn.
 
 146 Political Economy Club 1905 
 
 The death of Sir Bernhard Samuelson was referred to by the 
 Secretary, and the regret of the Club expressed. 
 
 The unanimous election of Lord George Hamilton and Sir 
 Thomas Raleigh as Members of the Club was announced. Lord 
 George Hamilton, after election as an Ordinary Member, was 
 passed into the Honorary List as an ex-Cabinet Minister. 
 
 To what extent is the great reduction in the number of 
 agricultural labourers in England and Wales during the last 
 half century due to Free Trade, and what have been the 
 economic effects of that reduction ? Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE. 
 
 July ^th. 
 Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Buxton, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Stebbing, Sir W. Lee Warner, 
 Messrs. Mallet, Hubbard, Higgs, Sir T. Raleigh, Professors 
 Foxweil, Edgeworth, Messrs. Grenfell, Bonar, Sir J. Macdonell. 
 
 Visitors : Professor Mavor (Toronto), Rev. J. R. Scoular, 
 Mr. A. L. Bowley. 
 
 What has the Political Economy Club done since 1821 ? 
 
 Sir J. MACDONELL. 
 
 December 6th. 
 Sir JOHN MACDONELL, Chair. 
 
 Mr. F. W. Buxton, Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Llewellyn Smith, 
 Sir R. Giffen, Sir G. H. Murray, Mr. Mackay, Professor Ashley, 
 Messrs. Bonar, Stebbing, Westlake, Hubbard, Jackson, Lord 
 G. Hamilton, Messrs. Mallet, Strachey, Sir Raymond West, 
 Mr. Acworth, Major Darwin, Mr. Courtney, Sir Hugh Bell. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Colin Scott Moncrieff, Messrs. Noel Buxton, 
 Sigismund Mendl, Percy Ashley, Spencer Portal, Waters, 
 Geoffrey Drage, J. Murray Macdonald, H. W. Eve, Roby.
 
 1905 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 147 
 
 The Secretary expressed the regret of the Club at the death, 
 in August last, of Mr. William Fowler, who had been a member 
 of the Club since 1873. The Secretary also announced the 
 resignation of Mr. Sidney Lee, and stated that there were now 
 three vacancies for ordinary members. 
 
 The Treasurer stated that the Balance had risen from 
 ^121 155. 2d. at which it stood in December last, to 151 i6s., and 
 that, taking the Canadian Pacific Debenture Stock at the same 
 price as last year (in), the total assets of the Club were 568 is. od. 
 
 The Treasurer suggested the investment of a further sum from 
 the balance. 
 
 This was subsequently done (December 23rd, 1905), 25 
 Canadian Pacific Debenture Stock having been purchased at 109, 
 costing 27 155. 3d. 
 
 Is the Open Door worth striving for ? Sir HUGH BELL. 
 
 1906. February yth. 
 Mr. COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. G. Shaw Lefevre, Stebbing, Sir J. Macdonell, Professor 
 Ashley, Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Higgs, 
 Llewellyn Smith, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bonar, Westlake, 
 Mallet, Acworth, Hewins, Buxton, Lord Brassey. 
 
 Visitors : The Bishop of Leicester, Messrs. C. G. Hyde, M.P., 
 F. H. P. Creswell, C. S. Goldmann, J. Buchan. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Herbert Samuel, M.P., and 
 Sir George S. Gibb, was announced. Since the last meeting a 
 further vacancy had occurred among ordinary members owing 
 to the transfer of Sir Edward Grey's name to the list of honorary 
 members on his joining the Cabinet as Secretary of State for 
 Foreign Affairs on December nth, 1905. 
 
 To what extent do the political and economic condition 
 of our South African Colonies point to their prosperity in 
 the future ? Mr. FRANCIS BUXTON.
 
 148 Political Economy Club 1906 
 
 March jth. 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Hewins, Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Sir T. Raleigh, 
 Messrs. Bonar, Strachey, Sir J. Macdonell, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Mr. Higgs, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Mallet, Westlake, Hubbard, 
 Jackson, Grenfell, Sir C. Dilke, Mr. (Courtney. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Addington, Messrs. Owen Smith, Arthur 
 Ponsonby. 
 
 An announcement was made that Mr. A. C. Pigou and Mr. 
 Felix Schuster had been unanimously elected as members of the 
 Club. 
 
 Do the proposals for rating urban land which have been 
 based on the " separate report " of a minority of the Local 
 Taxation Commission deserve support ? 
 
 Professor EDGEWORTH. 
 
 April 4th. 
 Sir WILLIAM LEE- WARNER, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Buxton, Hewins, Llewellyn Smith, Gibbs, Mackay, 
 Acworth, Mallet, Higgs, Westlake, Sir R. Giffen, Sir J. Macdonell, 
 Messrs. Stebbing, Courtney, Bonar, Professor Edgeworth, Major 
 Darwin. 
 
 Is it true that domestic trade employs two home capitals, 
 foreign trade only one ? Mr. BONAR. 
 
 May 2nd. 
 Mr. BONAR, Chair. 
 
 Lord George Hamilton, Messrs. Strachey, Stebbing, Sir J. 
 Macdonell, Lord Fitzmaurice, Messrs. Acworth, Pigou, Major
 
 1906 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 149 
 
 Darwin, Sir Raymond West, Messrs. Mallet, Westlake, Llewellyn 
 Smith, Gibbs, Hewins, Sir T. Raleigh, the Bishop of Stepney. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Stephan Bauer, McKinder, Hon. N. M. 
 Farrer, Viscount Duncannon and Viscount Ridley. 
 
 The death of Sir David Dale was mentioned and the regret of the 
 Club expressed. 
 
 Is it desirable that there should be preferential trade 
 arrangements within the Empire, and if so, what are the 
 general features of the arrangements between the United 
 Kingdom and the respective Colonies which would be most 
 likely to meet existing conditions of trade ? Mr. HEWINS. 
 
 June 
 Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Buxton, Courtney, Stebbing, Strachey, Lord G. 
 Hamilton, Sir W. Lee Warner, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Higgs, 
 Mallet, Westlake, Major Darwin, Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Bonar, 
 Sir T. Raleigh, Sir Raymond West, Messrs. Acworth, Llewellyn 
 Smith, Mackay. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. H. Unwin, Owen Fleming, J. S. Davy, 
 Professor A. W. Flux (Montreal). 
 
 Is the difficulty which now attends the administration 
 of the Poor Law due to any defect in the principle on which 
 the law as settled by the Act of 1834 is based ? 
 
 Mr. MACKAY. 
 
 July nth. 
 Mr. MACKAY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Courtney, Stebbing, Sir Charles Dilke, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Messrs. Trevelyan, Wynnard Hooper, Professor Foxwell, Sir
 
 150 Political Economy Club 1906 
 
 W. Lee Warner, Sir Robert Giffen, Messrs. Acworth, Mallet, 
 Sir Raymond West, Lord Justice Fletcher-Moulton, Mr. Westlake. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Douglas Cooper, Hon. William Peel. 
 
 Would our existing system of direct taxation be improved 
 by the introduction of a graduated Income Tax ? 
 
 Lord Justice FLETCHER-MOULTON. 
 
 December $th. 
 Sir ROBERT GIFFEN, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith, Sir Raymond West, Sir W. Lee- Warner, 
 Messrs. Hubbard, Acworth, Grenfell, Professor Foxwell, Mr. 
 Buxton, Sir G. Gibb, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Jackson, 
 Mallet, Sir T. Raleigh, Messrs. Bonar, Higgs, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Major Darwin, Messrs. Mackay, Stebbing, Pigou. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Wright-Taylor, Schloss, Godfrey Lloyd, and 
 Askwith. 
 
 The Treasurer stated the balance in the Club's Banking Account, 
 notwithstanding the purchase of 25 Canadian Pacific Debenture 
 Stock at 109, stood on December ist, 1906, at 151 75. nd., 
 almost the same figure at which it had stood on December ist, 
 1905 (151 i6s.). The total assets of the Club were on December 
 ist, 1905, 568 is. ; and on December ist, 1906, taking the 400 
 Canadian Pacific Stock at in (the present price), 595 75. lid. 
 
 Are there any general principles by which an arbitrator 
 in an industrial dispute ought to be guided in giving his 
 decision ? Mr. PIGOU. 
 
 1907. February 6th. 
 Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Buxton, Sir Raymond West, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. 
 Pigou, Bonar, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Mackay, Jackson,
 
 1907 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 151 
 
 Mallet, Sir R. Giffen, Sir J. Macdonell, Messrs. Higgs, Strachey, 
 Sir G. Gibb, Messrs. Grenfell, Gibbs, Llewellyn Smith, Acworth, 
 Sir Felix Schuster. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. Hubbard, Alfred Hoare, The Earl of 
 Chichester, Colonel Hon. Herbert Lawrence, Messrs. Douglas 
 Cooper, Fay Wilson, Cole, Sir George S. Clarke, Messrs. W. Blain, 
 C.B., G. Paish, Cockayne, and Sir Edgar Speyer. 
 
 The election of Viscount Ridley as an ordinary member was 
 announced by the Secretary. 
 
 Are our Gold reserves adequate ? 
 
 Sir FELIX SCHUSTER. 
 
 March 6th. 
 Lord COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Sir C. Dilke, Lord Fitzmaurice, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Bonar, 
 Sir T. Raleigh, Messrs. Mallet, Trevelyan, Samuel, Hewins, 
 Acworth, Professors Foxwell, Edgeworth, Messrs. Stebbing, 
 Higgs, Gibbs. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Wright-Taylor, Chiozza-Money (M.P.), 
 T. Gibson Bowles, Sir T. Whittaker (M.P.), Messrs. Blain, C.B., 
 and Atterbury. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Loch as an Honorary member 
 was announced by the Secretary. 
 
 It was moved by Lord Courtney and seconded by Sir C. Dilke, 
 and unanimously agreed to by the Club that : 
 
 " The Club express their regret at the death of Viscount 
 " Goschen, who was elected as an ordinary member in 1865 
 41 and became an honorary member on attaining Cabinet rank 
 " in the following year. Although Lord Goschen does not 
 " appear to have been at any time a very constant attendant 
 " at their meetings, the Club feel that they cannot pass over in 
 "' silence the death of a member who served with great distinction
 
 152 Political Economy Club 1907 
 
 " in the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer and who was 
 " eminent above other contemporary statesmen for his interest 
 " in, and mastery of, economic, financial, and statistical science." 
 
 Should the Income Tax discriminate between incomes of 
 different origin and character ? Mr. HERBERT GIBBS. 
 
 April loth. 
 Lord FITZMAURICE, Chair. 
 
 Sir J. Macdonell, Sir W. Lee- Warner, Mr. Bonar, Sir Raymond 
 West, Messrs. Hooper, Samuel, Mallet, Westlake, Higgs, Loch, 
 Acworth, Hewins, Lord Courtney, Sir T. Raleigh. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. E. M. Armstrong, W. Blain, C.B. 
 
 Is it possible to bring Public Expenditure under the 
 control of economic principle ? Sir THOMAS RALEIGH. 
 
 May ist. 
 Sir THOMAS RALEIGH, CJiair. 
 
 Lords Eversley, Courtney, George Hamilton, Sir W. Lee- 
 Warner, Messrs. Booth, Buxton, Sir G. Gibb, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Mr. Acworth, Sir J. Macdonell, Sir G. H. Murray, Mr. Gibbs, 
 Lord Ridley, Mr. Grenfell, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Strachey, 
 Mallet, Westlake, Sir R. Giffen, Sir Raymond West, Messrs. 
 Pigou, Hewins, Hubbard, Bonar, Professor Foxwell. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Hugh Cecil, Messrs. Acland (M.P.), Fletcher 
 (M.P.), Amery, Russell Rea (M.P.), Keynes, Sir Vincent Caillard, 
 Lord Addington, Hon. Arthur Elliot, Mr. Bonar Law (M.P.). 
 
 Is a tax on Corn a necessary incident, under existing 
 circumstances, of a preferential agreement with the Colonies ? 
 
 Viscount RIDLEY.
 
 1907 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 153 
 
 June $th. 
 Viscount RIDLEY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Stebbing, Lord Courtney, Sir J. Macdoneil, Sir R. West, 
 Mr. F. H. Jackson, Sir R. Giffen, Mr. Mallet, Lord Eversley, 
 Messrs. Hubbard, Westlake, Sir T. Raleigh, Messrs. Higgs, 
 Bonar, Samuel, Acworth, Professors Foxwell, Edge worth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. F. W. Hirst, A. C. Cole, Spencer Portal, 
 J. M. Macdonald (M.P.). 
 
 What is, or is likely to be, the Economic Effect on the 
 world of the great increase of production of gold ? 
 
 Lord EVERSLEY. 
 
 December qkh. 
 Sir WILLIAM LEE WARNER, Chair. 
 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. F. W. Buxton, Sir R. West, Lord 
 Fitzmaurice, Messrs. Stebbing, Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir R. 
 Giffen, Sir G. Murray, Lord Courtney, Sir T. Raleigh, Professor 
 Foxwell, Sir J. Macdoneil, Mr. Acworth. 
 
 Visitors : Rev. R. H. Gamble, Messrs. W. G. Waters, Coghlan, 
 Harold Russell, Hugo Bell, and Price. 
 
 The Secretary expressed the regret of the Club at the death of 
 Lord Aldenham. 
 
 The Treasurer stated that the Club held a balance of 
 151 75. i id. (not counting the overdue Subscriptions of five 
 Members), which would bring it up to 172 75. nd. Adding 
 the 400 Canadian Pacific Stock now standing at 105 (=420), 
 the total assets of the Club stood at 592 75. nd., as against 
 595 7 s - Ir d. a t the same date last year, 1906. 
 
 What will be the Economic and Social Effects of Old 
 Age Pensions ? Mr. ACWORTH.
 
 154 Political Economy Club 1908 
 
 1908. February $th. 
 Mr. ACWORTH, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Sir J. Macdonell, Sir G. Gibb, Mr. F. W. 
 Buxton, Sir R. West, Major Darwin, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. 
 Strachey, Mackay, Mallet, Westlake, Lord Ridley, Sir T. Raleigh, 
 Professor Foxwell, Mr. Higgs, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Wynnard 
 Hooper. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. R. Campbell, Henry Goschen, and Cecil 
 Grenfell. 
 
 Why have the Canadian banks not suffered in the same way 
 as the American banks as a result of the over-speculation 
 which came to a head in 1907 ? Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 March ^th. 
 Mr. STRACHEY, Chair. 
 
 Sir Hugh Bell, Sir J. Macdonell, Messrs. Higgs, Buxton, 
 Trevelyan, Pigou, Westlake, Mackay, Wynnard Hooper, Sir 
 Felix Schuster, Messrs. Mallet, Hubbard, Sir G. Gibb, Lord 
 Ridley, Mr. Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Sir T. Raleigh, Professor 
 Edgeworth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Webster, Marshall, Col. Hon. Herbert 
 Lawrence, Mr. F. W. Hirst, Hon. Edward Thesiger, C.B., and 
 Mr. E. Bond. 
 
 Who pays for Waste ? Sir HUGH BELL. 
 
 April ist. 
 Major DARWIN, Chair. 
 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Sir C. Dilke, Sir R. West, Mr. Hewins, 
 Professor Foxwell, Mr. Stebbing, Sir R. Giffen, Messrs. Strachey,
 
 1908 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 155 
 
 Mallet, Higgs, Sir G. Gibb, Mr. Acworth, Sir T. Raleigh, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Mackay. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Sidney Webb, G. R. Askwith, Walker, 
 Boardman, G. Barnes, Graham Brooks, and Wilkins. 
 
 The Secretary announced the unanimous election of Mr. W. 
 Blain, C.B. 
 
 Is the enforcement of a legal rate of wages practicable or 
 necessary ? Mr. MACKAY. 
 
 May 6th. 
 Lord COURTNEY OF PENWITH, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Acworth, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Higgs, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Viscount Ridley, Messrs. Mallet, Buxton, Sir R. West, Sir T. 
 Raleigh, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Stebbing. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Edgar Speyer, Sir John Dickson Poynder, 
 Sir Herbert Jekyll, Messrs. F. H. Berryman, G. Duckworth, 
 Owen Smith, and Mons. P. E. Lefebure. 
 
 Is the existing situation in regard to London passenger 
 traffic satisfactory ? Sir GEORGE GIBB. 
 
 June yd. 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB, Chair. 
 
 Lord George Hamilton, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Strachey, Sir R. 
 West, Lord Fitzmaurice, Mr. E. Hubbard, Professor Foxwell, 
 Messrs. Acworth, Mackay, Major Darwin, Messrs. Mallet, Blain, 
 Higgs, Westlake, Lord Courtney, Messrs. Stebbing, Hewins, 
 Sir T. Raleigh, Professor Edgeworth, Sir J. Macdonell, Viscount 
 Ridley. 
 
 Visitors: Messrs. C. E. Mallet, M.P., J. A. Spender, J. L. 
 Garvin, and J. C. Bailey.
 
 156 Political Economy Club 1908 
 
 Do the principles advocated in the Merchants' Petition 
 of 1820 form a safe guide in 1908 for the trade policy of this 
 country ? Viscount RIDLEY. 
 
 July 1 5th. 
 Viscount RIDLEY, Chair. 
 
 Lord Brassey, Messrs. Stebbing, Balfour, Sir R. Giffen, Pro- 
 fessor Edgeworth, Messrs. Pigou, Hubbdrd, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Messrs. Mallet, Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Strachey, 
 Sir W. Lee Warner, Lord George Hamilton, Mr. Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. H. Stebbing, J. L. Garvin, Professor Flux, 
 Judge Bray, Mr. E. Knowles Corrie, Sir J. Mackay, Messrs. E. 
 Goulding, G. Rosenbaum, P. A. Kurd, Lockett Agnew, Capt. Orr, 
 Mr. J. A. Spender, Hon. Sir Eric Barrington, K.C.B., Messrs. 
 Cecil Lubbock, C. E. Mallet, M.P., T. Acland, M.P., and Sir 
 A. Henderson, Bart. 
 
 What conditions should be satisfied by a British tariff, 
 as distinct from the tariffs of other countries, and how can 
 they be met ? Mr. W. A. S. HEWINS. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 Sir THOMAS RALEIGH, Chair. 
 
 Mr. F. W. Buxton, Lord Courtney, Sir Robert Giffen, Sir 
 George Murray, Mr. Mackay, Professors Foxwell, Edgeworth, 
 Messrs. Jackson, Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Acworth, Lord 
 Fitzmaurice, Sir George Gibb, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Herbert 
 Samuel, Wynnard Hooper. 
 
 Visitors: Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Lascelles, G.C.B., Colonel 
 Macpherson, Messrs. Bernard Holland, C.B., Penney, Deneke, 
 and G. Paish. 
 
 The Secretary announced the unanimous election of Sir Frank 
 Forbes Adam and the Hon. Pember Reeves as ordinary Members
 
 1908 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 157 
 
 in the places of Lord Fitzmaurice, who had become an Honorary 
 Member on reaching Cabinet rank, and Mr. Pigou, who had 
 become Professor of Political Economy at Cambridge. 
 
 He also read a letter from Mr. Alfred Marshall, stating his 
 regret that he was unable to accede to the wish of the Club that 
 he should remain an Honorary Member of the Club under the 
 Rule of 1904. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual statement as to the finances 
 of the Club. The balance now amounted to 139 os. 5d. as 
 against 151 33. rod. on December ist, 1907, 26 i6s. 5d. having 
 been invested in the purchase of 25 Canadian Pacific Railway 
 4% Debenture Stock. The total assets of the Club, taking the 
 425 Canadian Pacific Railway Debenture Stock at 105, stood at 
 590 55. 5d. as against 592 75. id. a year ago. 
 
 In what sense is Germany wealthy ? 
 
 Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 1909. February yd. 
 Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Messrs. Stebbing, Buxton, Herbert Gibbs, 
 Acworth, W. Pember Reeves, Mallet, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Sir 
 John Macdonell, Mr. Westlake, Sir Robert Giffen, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. Higgs, Lord Fitzmaurice, Professor Foxwell, Sir 
 G. Gibb, Lord George Hamilton, Mr. C. Booth, Professor Pigou. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. G. Leveson-Gower, Hirst, Paish, J. M. Keynes 
 and R. W. Lee. 
 
 The election of Mr. Owen Fleming was announced, and the 
 Secretary said that since the last meeting three vacancies had 
 occurred, all great losses to the Club, one by the death of Mr. W. 
 Blain and the other two by the resignations of the Archbishop 
 of York and Sir Hubert Llewellyn Smith. 
 
 How far is it practicable for England to tax the foreigner ? 
 
 Professor PIGOU.
 
 158 Political Economy Club 1909 
 
 March yd. 
 Lord COURTNEY, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Owen Fleming, Stebbing, Sir W. Lee-Warner, Sir 
 J. Macdonell, Messrs. F. H. Jackson, Buxton, Mallet, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Sir T. Raleigh, Messrs. 
 Mackay, Acworth, Sir Charles Dilke, Mr. W. P. Reeves. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Henry Howorth and Mr. John Bradbury. 
 
 The Secretary announced that Sir Edgar Speyer and Mr. 
 F. W. Hirst had been unanimously elected as ordinary Members. 
 
 Do the common objections to a State-aided contributory 
 system of Old Age pensions for the poor apply equally to 
 Invalidity pensions ? Mr. W. PEMBER REEVES. 
 
 March 3 is/. 
 Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Sir Frank Forbes Adam, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir George Gibb, 
 Major Darwin, Mr. Acworth, Professor Edgeworth, Sir Edgar 
 Speyer, Messrs. Westlake, Stebbing, Hirst, Sir John Macdonell, 
 Sir W. Lee- Warner, Sir Thomas Raleigh. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. W. E. Hubbard. 
 
 What considerations peculiar to India affect the question 
 of tariff reform ? Sir WILLIAM LEE-WARNER. 
 
 May 5///. 
 Sir WILLIAM LEE-WARXER, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Buxton, Major Darwin, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir F. Forbes 
 Adam, Sir Raymond West, Messrs. Acworth, Hirst, Sir George 
 Gibb, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Mr. Stebbing, Professor Nicholson, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Mallet, Jackson,
 
 1909 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 159 
 
 Higgs, Hubbard, Professor Fox well, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. 
 Fleming, Gibbs. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Abraham, F. St. John Morrow, Geoffrey 
 Drage, G. Paish, Crammond, H. Elliot, F. S. Oliver, and the 
 Archdeacon of Ely (Dr. W. Cunningham). 
 
 What is the effect of the export of British capital on 
 employment ? Professor NICHOLSON. 
 
 June gth. 
 Sir THOMAS RALEIGH, Chair. 
 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Stebbing, Reeves, Higgs, Hubbard, 
 Acworth, Hirst, Sir Raymond West, Sir George Gibb, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. Buxton. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Martin Holland, John Bradbury, Blenner- 
 hassett, John Buchan, P. Jay, C. H. Merz, and Professor Hollander. 
 
 The death of Mr. Charles Morrison, the oldest Member of the 
 Club (elected 1858), was reported. 
 
 Are Death Duties economically sound as a form of taxa- 
 tion ? Sir FELIX SCHUSTER. 
 
 July jth. 
 Lord EVERSLEY, Chair. 
 
 Sir Raymond West, Mr. Fleming, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir John 
 Macdonell, Messrs. Westlake, Mallet, Sir Robert Giffen, Messrs. 
 Stebbing, Higgs, Acworth, Professor Foxwell, Sir Thomas 
 Raleigh, Messrs. Hubbard, Buxton, Hirst, Lord Courtney. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Harold D. Hazeltine, Burrell, A. M. S. 
 Methuen, Rev. J. R. Scoular. 
 
 What is public waste, and how could it be reduced ? 
 
 Mr. F. W. HIRST.
 
 160 Political Economy Club 1909 
 
 December ist. 
 Mr. ST. LOE STRACHEY, Cliair. 
 
 Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Evelyn Hubbard, Buxton, Fleming, 
 Stebbing, Westlake, Mallet, Higgs, Lord Courtney, Sir Edgar 
 Speyer, Sir George Gibb, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Hirst, 
 Herbert Samuel, T. Mackay. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Chirol, G. R. Askwith, Cecil Lubbock, Roger 
 Gibb, R. H. Rew, A. L. Bovvley, and Sir Thomas Acland, Bart. 
 
 The Secretary announced the unanimous election as ordinary 
 members of Mr. John S. Bradbury, C.B., and Mr. John Buchan 
 in the place of the late Mr. C. Morrison and Mr. Herbert Samuel, 
 who had become an Honorary Member on attaining Cabinet 
 rank. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual statement as to the finances of 
 the Club. The total income for the year was 184 is. 7d. and 
 the expenditure 170 los. 2d. The balance at the bank was 
 152 us. as against 139 os. 5d. on December ist, 1908. The 
 total assets of the Club, taking the investment of 425 Canadian 
 Pacific Railway 4% Debenture Stock at 107 \, stood at 609 95. 4d. 
 as against 590 55. 5d. 
 
 What is the relative interest of Capital and Labour in 
 industrial enterprise ? SIR HUGH BELL. 
 
 1910. February 2nd. 
 Mr. MACKAY, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Charles Booth, Lord Courtney, Mr. Stebbing, Sir John 
 Macdonell, Messrs. St. Loe Strachey, Buchan, Acworth, Mallet, 
 Higgs, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bradbury, Hirst, Fleming, 
 Sir George Gibb, Professor Ashley. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Arthur Shadwell. 
 
 How should profit be defined and how is it to be measured ? 
 
 Professor ASHLEY.
 
 1910 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 161 
 
 March 2nd. 
 Mr. HERBERT GIBBS, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Mackay, Acworth, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Trevelyan, 
 Samuel, Buchan, Jackson, Mallet, Sir Robert Giffen, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Messrs. Fleming, Higgs, Bradbury, Viscount Ridley, 
 Mr. Hirst, Sir John Macdonell, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Mr. Stebbing, 
 Lord Courtney, Professor Foxwell. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. R. Martin Holland. 
 
 Is the present provision of gold reserve in the London 
 market adequate ? and if not, in what way can an increased 
 reserve be most effectively and equitably provided ? 
 
 Professor FOXWELL. 
 
 April 6th. 
 Mr. BUXTON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Stebbing, Mackay, Evelyn Hubbard, Sir Raymond 
 West, Lord Courtney, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Higgs, Jackson, 
 Buchan, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Mallet, Westlake, Fleming, 
 Hirst, Viscount Ridley, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Professors Nicholson, 
 Edgeworth, Sir Charles Dilke, Sir W. Lee- Warner. 
 
 Visitors : Professor F. B. Jevons (v.c. of Durham University), 
 Mr. G. H. Ryan, Capt. Guy Dawnay, Sir J. Jardine, Mr. John 
 Bailey, and Mr. Adeane. 
 
 Is the scheme recently sketched by Professor Shield 
 Nicholson, which involves internal free trade, an Imperial 
 revenue from Customs and land taxes, and a joint liability 
 for common services, practicable or desirable ? 
 
 Mr. JOHN BUCHAN. 
 
 P. E.G.
 
 162 Political Economy Club 1910 
 
 May qth. 
 Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Mackay, Bradbury, Higgs, Mallet, Westlake, Professors 
 Edgeworth, Pigou, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Mr. Owen Fleming. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Dodds, G. R. Diblee, Clapham, and Dr. 
 T. H. C. Stevenson. 
 
 A resolution was moved in the following terms by Mr. Higgs 
 and seconded by Professor Edgeworth and Mr. Mallet expressing 
 the regret of the Club at the death of Sir Robert Giffen. 
 
 " The Club express their deep regret at the death of Sir 
 Robert Giffen, who for thirty-three years greatly contributed 
 by his sagacity, knowledge, and ability to the value of their 
 discussions, and by his services as Honorary Secretary 
 from 1881 to 1891, and subsequently as a member of the 
 Committee, added to the obligations of the Club in which 
 his interest continued until the end." 
 
 Do the present tariff policies of the United States and 
 Germany tend to strengthen the views of those who demand 
 changes in our own tariff ? Mr. OWEN FLEMING. 
 
 June ist. 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Booth, Viscount 
 Ridley, Sir W. Lee-Warner, Messrs. Buxton, Mallet, Westlake, 
 Sir Raymond West, Professor Edgeworth, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Mr. Acworth, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Messrs. Stebbing, Higgs. 
 
 Visitors : Rev. C. Donald, Mr. Steel Maitland, M.P., Captain 
 Buxton, Messrs. Stewart Patterson and Mark Stebbing. 
 
 What is Economy in Public or Private Expenditure ? 
 
 Mr. HIGGS.
 
 1910 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 163 
 
 July 6th 
 Mr. HIGGS, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Messrs. Buxton, Buchan, Viscount Ridley, 
 Sir Raymond West, Mr. Mallet, Major Darwin, Sir John Mac- 
 donell, Mr. Hirst, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Evelyn Hubbard, 
 Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Mortimer Courtney, Hon. Jasper Ridley, 
 Messrs. T. Knight Taylor, Rosenbaum, Percy Kurd, Hartley 
 Withers, W. T. Layton, Dudley Ward, Goulding. 
 
 Of what value is the most favoured Nation Clause to the 
 United Kingdom and the Empire in present conditions ? 
 
 Mr. HEWINS. 
 
 December jth. 
 Mr. FRANCIS BUXTON, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Gibb, Mr. Acworth, Sir J. Macdonell, Messrs. 
 Mallet, Hubbard, Higgs, Fleming, Bradbury. 
 
 Visitor : Mr. Henry Oppenheim. 
 
 The Treasurer stated to the Club that the total income for the 
 year had been 175 125. ad. (one subscription being still out- 
 standing), and the total expenditure 162 is. 2d. The balance 
 at the bank was 166 2s. rod. against 152 us. on December 
 1909. The total assets of the Club, taking Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Co. 4% Debenture Stock at 107^, stood at 623 os. 4d. 
 as against 609 95. 4d. in December, 1909. 
 
 What principles should govern the management of 
 accumulated funds for which Government is responsible ? 
 Should they be invested, and if so, in what securities ? 
 
 Mr. J. S. BRADBURY.
 
 164 Political Economy Club 1911 
 
 1911. February ist. 
 Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Hubbard, Mackay, Bradbury, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Messrs. Hirst, Mallet, Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Stebbing, 
 Jackson. 
 
 Visitor : Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, K.C.B. 
 
 The regret of the Club at the great loss sustained by the death 
 of Sir Charles Dilke was expressed by the Secretary and by 
 Mr. Jackson and Mr. Stebbing. 
 
 Does the Bills of Exchange Act (1882) require amend- 
 ment ? Mr. F. H. JACKSON. 
 
 March ist. 
 Lord BRASSEY, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Stebbing, Higgs, Acworth, Mackay, 
 Fleming, Hirst, Strachey, Mallet, Jackson, Westlake, Hooper, 
 Hubbard, Sir W. Lee Warner, Lord George Hamilton, Sir Felix 
 Schuster. 
 
 Visitors : The Hon. T. Brassey, Messrs. Bailward, Cecil 
 Nussey, C. J. Hamilton, F. Morris, Hancock Nunn, Spencer 
 Portal, F. H. Bentham. 
 
 The Secretary announced that Mr. Arthur L. Bowley had 
 been unanimously elected an Honorary Member. 
 
 Assuming that a system of National Poor Relief is neces- 
 sary, should its governing principle be deterrence, or should 
 it rest largely upon restorative and curative processes ? 
 
 Lord GEORGE HAMILTON.
 
 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 165 
 
 April $th. 
 Major DARWIN, Chair. 
 
 Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, Wynnard Hooper, 
 Sir Raymond West, Messrs. Mallet, Higgs, Sir George Gibb, 
 Messrs. Stebbing, Buchan, Hubbard, Mackay, Sir Edgar Speyer. 
 
 Visitors : Professor Bonn (Munich), Messrs. Wright Taylor, 
 Bailward, Sir Arthur Clay, Messrs. Beveridge, Charles Buxton, 
 Victor Mallet. 
 
 How far is the growth of socialistic opinion to be attributed 
 to psychological, how far to economic causes ? 
 
 Mr. MACKAY. 
 
 May -yd. 
 Mr. MACKAY, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Buxton, Hirst, 
 Professor Foxwell, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Mallet, Grenfell, 
 Higgs, Stebbing, Hubbard, Acworth, Mackay. 
 
 Visitors : Lords Addington, Monkswell, Messrs. Hilton Young, 
 Govett, Pratt. 
 
 Can the United States avoid being forced into Government 
 ownership of railways in the proximate future ? 
 
 Mr. ACWORTH. 
 
 July 5th. 
 
 (Postponed from June jth.) 
 Mr. ACWORTH, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Samuel, Buxton, Hirst, Lord Ridley, Messrs. Hubbard, 
 Mallet, Higgs, Bowley, Professors Foxwell, Pigou, Messrs. Wynnard 
 Hooper, Stebbing, Fleming, Loch.
 
 1 66 Political Economy Club 1911 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. R. Buxton, Sullivan, T. G. C. Brown, 
 Sir Theodore Morison, Messrs. Ernest Aves, S. Leon Levy, 
 Professor Irving Fisher, Dr. W. L. Mollison. 
 
 Do social reforms benefit economically or socially the 
 classes on whose account especially it is intended that they 
 should be undertaken ? Mr. C. S. LOCH. 
 
 December 6th. 
 Lord COURTNEY OF PENWITH, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Mr. Mackay, Professor Ashley, Earl 
 Brassey, Messrs. Jackson, Mallet, Higgs, Acworth, Professor 
 Foxwell, Messrs. Hubbard, Westlake, Bowley, Professor Edge- 
 worth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Joseph King, M.P., H. Hall-Hall, A. W. Flux, 
 and His Honour Judge Bray. 
 
 The unanimous election of Sir Theodore Morison, K.C.I.E., as 
 an ordinary member was announced. 
 
 Allusion was made by the Secretary to the loss sustained by the 
 death of the Treasurer of the Club, Mr. Francis W. Buxton, and 
 Lord Courtney moved the following resolution, which it was 
 decided to send to Mrs. Buxton : 
 
 " The members of the Political Economy Club desire to 
 record their sense of the loss they have sustained by the 
 death of their much esteemed colleague, Mr. Francis W. 
 Buxton, who often joined with effect in their discussions and 
 who for many years gave his valuable services as Treasurer." 
 
 On the motion of Lord Courtney, seconded by Sir John Mac- 
 donell, the Rt. Hon. Frederick Huth Jackson was elected 
 Treasurer, in place of Mr. Buxton. 
 
 It was resolved that in future a dinner of the Club should take 
 place in November instead of July, as heretofore.
 
 1911 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 167 
 
 The Secretary stated that the income for the year ended on 
 December ist, 19x1, was 176 is. id., a few shillings more than 
 the previous year. (One subscription was still outstanding.) 
 The total expenditure was 166 75. gd., including an investment 
 of 27 8s. in Canadian Pacific Debenture Stock. The balance 
 at the bank was 176 us. 8d., as against 166 2s. lod. on 
 December i, 1910 ; adding the value of 410 Canadian Pacific 
 Debentures 4% Stock at 105 (i.e. 472) the total assets of the 
 Club were 648 6s. id. In 1904 the assets stood at 609 75. 
 
 There appeared to be no sufficient margin, in spite of an 
 accidental surplus in the past year owing to a smaller attendance 
 at the dinners, for a reduction of the subscriptions ; but the 
 Committee was authorized to subscribe a certain sum from the 
 surplus towards the cost of a special meeting of the Royal Econo- 
 mic Society on January loth for the discussion of certain economic 
 questions. 20 was accordingly paid to that Society. 
 
 To what extent can real wages be measured or compared ? 
 
 Mr. A. L. BOWLEY. 
 
 1912. February 2nd. 
 Earl BRASSEY, Chair. 
 
 Professor Ashley, Messrs. Higgs, Westlake, Sir Theodore 
 Morison, Messrs. Mackay, Stebbing, Hubbard, Lord Justice 
 Fletcher-Moulton, Mr. Bowley, Professor Foxwell, Sir Raymond 
 West, Messrs. Jackson, Acworth, Hirst, Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Viscount Hythe, Sir Walter Howell. 
 
 What have been the causes of the recent rise of prices ? 
 
 Professor ASHLEY. 
 
 This dinner took place, by the kind invitation of Lord Brassey 
 to the memb.ers of the Political Economy Club, at his own house, 
 24, Park Lane ; and the Club was honoured by the presence of 
 ladies for the first time in its history, namely, Countess Brassey, 
 Lady Helen Brassey, and Lady Evelyn Dawnay.
 
 i68 Political Economy Club 1912 
 
 March 6th. 
 Mr. ST. LOE STRACHEY, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Messrs. H. Samuel, Hirst, Sir John Macdonell, 
 Sir Theodore Morison, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Mallet, Higgs, 
 Acworth, Bradbury, Fleming, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Mr. Hubbard, 
 Sir W. Lee- Warner, Earl Brassey, Mr. Pember Reeves. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. G. S. Pawle, Sir Edward Boyle, Professor 
 Oidham, Sir John Fry, Mr. G. Lewinski, Lord Addington. 
 
 The death of Mr. Thomas Mackay was mentioned by the 
 Secretary and Mr. Strachey, and his loss deeply regretted by the 
 Club. 
 
 Is compulsory arbitration by the State in industrial 
 disputes practicable in the country ? 
 
 Mr. PEMBER REEVES. 
 
 Mr. Pember Reeves kindly undertook this question at the last 
 moment in substitution for one which Mr. Hewins had arranged 
 to discuss. 
 
 April yd. 
 Mr. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Acworth, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Hirst, Gibbs, 
 Mallet, Bradbury, Fleming, Sir J. Macdonell, Major Darwin, 
 Messrs. Stebbing, Evelyn Hubbard. 
 
 Visitors: Messrs. W. P. Norton, Hartley Withers, Elliott 
 Dodds, Victor Mallet, Sir Matthew Nathan. 
 
 How far is the principle of the " Minimum wage " economi- 
 cally defensible ? Mr. HUBBARD.
 
 1912 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 169 
 
 May ist. 
 Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Chair. 
 
 Sir William Lee- Warner, Sir John Macdonell, Mr. Stebbing, 
 Lord Courtney, Sir Raymond West, Mr. Fleming, Sir Felix 
 Schuster, Messrs. Mallet, Westlake, Higgs, Sir Thomas Raleigh, 
 Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Professor Pigou, Sir Theodore Morison. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. F. C. Harrison, C.S.I., Keynes, Paish, 
 Newmarch, Lionel Abrahams, C.B. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Robert Martin-Holland, C.B., 
 was announced. 
 
 Should India be allowed to adopt a protective tariff in 
 order to hasten her industrial development ? 
 
 Sir THEODORE MORISON. 
 
 June $th. 
 Mr. ACWORTH, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Higgs, Bowley, Martin-Holland, Hirst, Bradbury, 
 Jackson, Mallet, Westlake, Sir Thomas Raleigh, Messrs. Stebbing, 
 Hubbard, Lord Courtney, Mr. Hewins. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Launcelot Hare, K.C.S.I., Messrs. F. R. Balfour, 
 C. E. R. Abbott, L. J. Reid, Kurd, M. P. Price, and Rosenbaum. 
 
 What fiscal relations between Ireland and Great Britain 
 and the Empire are suggested by an examination of existing 
 economic conditions ? Mr. W. A. S. HEWINS. 
 
 November i^th. 
 
 (Postponed from November 6th.) 
 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Jackson, Hubbard, Grenfell, Wynnard Hooper, 
 Acworth, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Mallet, Westlake, Stebbing,
 
 170 Political Economy Club 1912 
 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Sir W. Lee- Warner, Lord Courtney, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, Hirst. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Pember, Major Walker, Mr. Haggas, Admiral 
 Sir Reginald Custance, K.C.B., Messrs. J. A. Fairer, Norman 
 Angell, Captain Jackson, R.N., and Professor Hutchinson 
 (California University). 
 
 The death of Sir Raymond West was referred to and his public 
 services described by Sir William Lee- Warner, and on the motion 
 of Sir Hugh Bell the regret of the Club at his loss was ordered to 
 be recorded on the Minutes. 
 
 How would a great naval war in the North Sea affect 
 shipping and trade ? Mr. F. W. HIRST. 
 
 December ^th. 
 Lord COURTNEY OF PENWITII, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Martin-Holland, Acworth, Mallet, 
 Bowley, Professor Pigou, Sir George Gibb. 
 
 Visitors : Sir George Paish, Messrs. F. Lavington and Sidney 
 Webb. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. J. M. Keynes as an ordinary 
 member of the Club was announced. 
 
 To what extent ought the provision and maintenance of 
 good roads throughout the country to be regarded as a 
 national service, and by whom should the cost be mainly 
 borne ? Sir GEORGE GIBB. 
 
 1913. February $th. 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB, Chair. 
 
 Earl Brassey, Messrs. Herbert Samuel, Acworth, Pember 
 Reeves, Bradbury, Fleming, Keynes, Stebbing, Lord Courtney,
 
 1913 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 171 
 
 Messrs. Hirst, Jackson, Mallet, Westlake, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Mr. Martin-Holland, Sir W. Lee Warner, Mr. Evelyn Hubbard. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. H. Clapham, Louis Meinertzhagen, and 
 Sir Edwin Pears. 
 
 The unanimous election of Sir John Simon, K.C.V.O., K.C., 
 M.P., as an ordinary member was announced. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual statement on the financial 
 condition of the Club. The income for the year ended December 
 3ist, 1912 (including dividends 16 193.), was 178 135., and the 
 expenditure was 165 135. 8d. The balance at the bank in 
 November, 1911, was 176 6s. id., and the balance on December 
 3ist, 1912, was 180 175. 5d. There was 450 invested in 
 Canadian Pacific Railway 4% Debenture Stock. The financial 
 year had hitherto run from November to November, but this 
 year it had been decided to make it coincide with the calendar 
 year. There had therefore been eight dinners in the period from 
 November, 1911, to December 3ist, 1912, at one of which, how- 
 ever, the Club had been entertained by Lord Brassey. The 
 equivalent of this (20) had been given to the Royal Economic 
 Society. 
 
 The Treasurer stated that, in his opinion, the state of "the 
 balance would admit of a further 150 being invested, and 
 suggested that the Club might invest its money so as to bring 
 in a higher return of interest, the object being to increase its 
 income with a view to reducing the annual subscription. 
 
 These proposals were approved by the Club. 
 
 How far ought the State to follow the principle of laissez- 
 faire as regards industry and trade ? 
 
 Professor PIGOU. 
 
 March $th> 
 Lord COURTNEY OF PENWITH, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Bowley, Keynes, Buchan, Westlake, Martin-Holland, 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Major Darwin, Mr. Hubbard, Sir George 
 Gibb, Mr. Fleming.
 
 172 Political Economy Club 1913 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Arthur Clough, C. J. Hamilton, A. W. Flux, 
 Lionel Portman, Dr. C. R. Fay, and Sir Kenelm Digby, G.C.B. 
 
 Is the emigration of population from the agricultural 
 districts in the British Isles of sufficient importance to 
 become the subject of national concern ? 
 
 Mr. OWEN FLEMING. 
 
 April gth. 
 Lord COURTNEY OF PENWITH, Chair. 
 
 Professor Ashley, Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Messrs. Mallet, Hirst, Bradbury, Professor Foxwell. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. F. C. Harrison, Rev. C. R. Hone, Messrs. R. 
 Howard Krause, and Percy Ashley. 
 
 Does the present absorption of gold by India constitute 
 a danger to the English banking reserve or to any other 
 important economic interests ? Professor FOXWELL. 
 
 May 'jth. 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB, Chair. 
 
 Professors Pigou, Edgeworth, Foxwell, Messrs. Bowley, Keynes, 
 Jackson, Stebbing, Sir Frank Forbes Adam, Messrs. Mallet, 
 Grenfell, Sir William Lee Warner, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, 
 Hirst, Ac worth, Hubbard, Lord Eversleigh. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. W. T. Layton, R. W. Gillan, Owen Hugh 
 Smith, Yates Thompson, Barton Hepburn, and Robert Hunter. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Hartley Withers as an ordinary 
 member of the Club was announced by the Secretary, who also 
 referred to the death of Mr. Westlake. Lord Courtney expressed 
 on behalf of the Club his sense of the great loss which the Club 
 had suffered, and the Secretary was instructed to convey to Mrs.
 
 1913 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 173 
 
 Westlake their sympathy with her in the bereavement she had 
 sustained. 
 
 Are there observable any signs and portents justifying 
 the expectation that the end of the present period of trade 
 prosperity and the beginning of a time of depression are near 
 at hand ? Sir FRANK FORBES ADAM 
 
 June nth. 
 Sir WILLIAM LEE WARNER, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Charles Booth, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Stebbing, 
 Mallet, Keynes, Wynnard Hooper. 
 
 Visitors : Sir James Begbie, Mr. B. Wimble, and Professor 
 Seligman. 
 
 The Secretary referred to the lamented death of the senior and 
 one of the most distinguished members of the Club, Lord Avebury, 
 and was instructed to convey an expression of sympathy to Lady 
 Avebury. 
 
 Should the average reserve of the Bank of England be 
 larger than it has been ; and should a reserve of gold, other 
 than a banking reserve, be kept either at the Bank or 
 elsewhere ? Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 November $th. 
 Earl BRASSEY, Chair. 
 
 Professor Pigou, Messrs. Bowley, Keynes, Sir J. Bradbury, 
 Mr. Hartley- Withers, Lord Courtney, Mr. Hirst, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Messrs. Mallet, Hubbard, Stebbing, Martin-Holland. 
 
 Visitors: Mr. P. J. Baker, Sir Sydney Olivier, K.C.M.G., 
 Sir Herbert Leon, Bart., Messrs. R. H. Rew, C.B., and Eric 
 Hubbard.
 
 174 Political Economy Club 1913 
 
 Is the Agricultural Labourer of the Midland Counties in 
 the desperate plight in which many represent him to be ? 
 
 Mr. ROBERT MARTIN-HOLLAND. 
 
 December yd. 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Major Darwin, Professor Pigou, Messrs. Bowley, Hartley 
 Withers, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Hubbard, Mallet, Sir Edgar 
 Speyer, Mr. Hirst, Sir J. Bradbury, Mr. Wynnard Hooper. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. G. Hubbard, Leonard Reid, L. Huth Walters, 
 F. N. Schiller, D. H. Robertson, and R. G. Hawtrey. 
 
 How far are bankers responsible for the alternations of 
 boom and depression ? Mr. J. M. KEYNES. 
 
 1914. February qth. 
 Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Acworth, Keynes, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Messrs. Owen Fleming, Martin-Holland, Lord Courtney, Mr. St. 
 Loe Strachey, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Jackson, Mallet, Hubbard, 
 Withers, Sir John Macdonell. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. J. B. Atkins, Lieut. -Colonel H. R. Bellairs, 
 Mr. Ronald Hamilton, Colonel Elliot, Messrs. G. G. Coulton, 
 George F. Shee, R. L. Wedgwood, B. P. Blackett, and Henry 
 Birchenough, C.M.G. 
 
 The election of the Hon. Edward G. Strutt and Messrs. 
 Charles E. Mallet and Norman Angell as ordinary members was 
 announced. 
 
 The resignation, followed by the death, of Sir William Lee 
 Warner was referred to by the Secretary, who was instructed to 
 convey to Lady Lee Warner an expression of the regret and 
 sympathy of the Club.
 
 1914 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 175 
 
 Mr. Evelyn Hubbard asked whether notice could not in future 
 be given of the occurrence of vacancies in the Club so as to give 
 members an opportunity of suggesting candidates. It was 
 suggested that the Secretary in sending out notices for the 
 dinners should make mention of any vacancy which had occurred 
 since the last meeting, and this was agreed to. This arrangement 
 is presumably to be taken as superseding Rule 4 (which has not 
 been followed for a great number of years), that " The name of a 
 candidate shall be communicated to the Club, together with that 
 of the members who propose him, one meeting at least before 
 the election." 
 
 The following statement on the finances of the Club was made 
 by the Treasurer. The income for the year ended December 3ist, 
 1913 (including 17 35. 8d. from dividends), was 183 is. 8d., 
 and the expenditure 139 us. lod. The balance at the Bank 
 on December 3ist, 1913, was 91 33. 6d. Canadian Pacific 4% 
 Debenture Stock had been sold (450) producing 445 35. 3d., 
 and 600 Chili 5% Bonds costing 578 75. 5d. had been purchased. 
 Thus 133 35. gd. had been added to the invested fund in the 
 year ; and taking the value of the Chili 5% annuities at 565 and 
 adding the balance 91, the assets of the Club stood at 656. The 
 Treasurer stated that the income from Subscriptions might be 
 looked on as about 165 p.a. and the interest on investments 
 28 55., total 193 55. The expenditure during the past years 
 had been materially less than in previous years, owing mainly 
 to the fact that the attendance had been smaller. The average 
 attendance, including guests, had been as follows in recent 
 years : 
 
 1905 .. .. 17.5 1910 .. ..23 
 
 1906 .. ..22 1911 .. .. 18.3 
 
 1907 . . . . 25.6 1912 . . . . 19 
 
 1908 ... .. 24.4 1913 .. ..17 
 
 1909 .. .. 21.5 
 
 Has the adoption of compulsory National Service impeded 
 the economical and industrial progress of the countries 
 where it is in force ? Lord GEORGE HAMILTON.
 
 176 Political Economy Club 1914 
 
 March qth. 
 Mr. HERBERT GIBBS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. E. G. Strutt, Lord Ridley, Messrs. Martin-Holland, Hartley 
 Withers, Hirst, Major Darwin, Mr. Stebbing, Lord Courtney, 
 Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Mallet, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, 
 Fleming, Hubbard, Sir John Macdonell, Professor Pigou. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. R. H. Rew, C.B., Lieut.-Colonel E. M. Carter, 
 Mr. A. G. Forbes Adam, Lord Chelmsford, Messrs. H. A. Armistead 
 and H. E. Morice. 
 
 Is any system of minimum wage regulation in agriculture 
 desirable ? Professor PIGOU. 
 
 April is/. 
 Mr. J. M. KEYNES, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Bowley, Martin-Holland, Owen Fleming, Booth, 
 St. Loe Strachey, Mallet, Hubbard, Stebbing, Sir John Macdonell, 
 Mr. Hartley Withers. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. R. Thursfield, F. Keeling, H. A. Wimperis, 
 and B. J. Hubbard. 
 
 How far is individual extravagance a cause of poverty and 
 low wages ? Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS. 
 
 May 6th. 
 Mr. CHARLES BOOTH, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Mr. Charles Mallet, Sir Theodore Morison, 
 Messrs. Mallet, Hubbard, Strutt, Martin-Holland, Hirst, Hartley 
 Withers, Acworth, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Stebbing. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. W. Hills, M.P., and George Plimpton. 
 
 Does profit sharing offer any prospect of escape from 
 industrial unrest ? Professor ASHLEY.
 
 1914 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 177 
 
 June loth. 
 Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Chair. 
 
 Lord Welby, Messrs. Hubbard, Acworth, Sir Theodore Morison, 
 Mr. Martin-Holland, Sir George Gibb, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Mallet, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, Keynes, Sir John Bradbury, 
 Mr. Charles Mallet, Lord Courtney, Mr. Hirst. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. Frank Turnbull, Sir Harold Stuart, Messrs. 
 Philip Snowden, M.P., T. Gibson Bowles, H. B. Lees-Smith, M.P., 
 B. P. Blackett, S. D. Schloss, Rowland Whitehead, C. W. Heath, 
 and F. B. L. Bowley. 
 
 Can the scale of expenditure and taxation proposed in 
 this year's Budget be justified ? 
 
 Mr. F. W. HIRST. 
 
 December 2nd. 
 Mr. F. W. HIRST, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, Lord George Hamilton, Sir Edgar Speyer, 
 Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Hartley Withers, Bowley, Professor 
 Edgeworth, Mr. Charles Mallet, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. 
 Hubbard, Acworth, Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Owen Fleming, 
 Lord Courtney, Sir John Simon, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Wynnard 
 Hooper, Professor Foxwell, Sir Theodore Morison, Mr. Keynes. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Dudley Ward, Dominick Spring Rice, 
 L. Abrahams, C.B., Percy Ashley, A. I. Belisha, Sir Murray 
 Hammick, and the Earl of Ronaldshay. 
 
 The resignation of Sir Thomas Raleigh was announced. 
 
 Should we prefer the prearranged war finance of Germany 
 to our own improvisations ? 
 
 Mr. J. M. KEYNES. 
 
 P.E.C. M
 
 178 Political Economy Club 1915 
 
 t 
 
 1915. February yd. 
 Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. C. Booth, Pember Reeves, Sir Felix Schuster, Professor 
 Foxwell, Mr. Stebbing, Lord Courtney, Mr. Herbert Samuel, 
 Sir George Gibb, Mr. Jackson, Sir Theodore Morison, Mr. C. E. 
 Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. B. Mallet, Acworth, Professor Edge- 
 worth, Messrs. A. L. Bowley, Hirst, Strutt, Hubbard, Hooper, 
 Hartley Withers. 
 
 Visitors : Professor Andreades, Sir Edward Boyle, Major Storr, 
 Mr. J. F. Baddeley, Hon. R. H. Brand, Messrs. Harold Cox, 
 Albert Gray, K.C., G. Booth, M. Stebbing, Lewis Huth Walters, 
 Captain Richmond, R.N., Messrs. F. G. Newbolt, W. Wray 
 Skilbeck. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual statement on the finances of 
 the Club. The income for the year 1914, including 28 2s. 6d. 
 from dividends, was 194 os. 6d., and expenditure 134 us. 6d. 
 The balance on December 31, 1913, was 91 35. 6d., and on 
 December 31, 1914, 150 125. 6d. The expenditure in 1914 was 
 nearly equal to that in 1913, in spite of the fact that six dinners 
 took place in 1914 as against seven in 1913 ; but the average 
 number of members and visitors dining was 22 as against 17. 
 It had been thought advisable last autumn to suggest to the 
 manager of the hotel that a somewhat simpler and cheaper 
 dinner should be provided ; and the Committee had decided to 
 reduce the annual subscription, at all events for the present 
 year, from 4 45. to 2 2s. The Club could only reckon, therefore, 
 on an income from subscriptions and investment of 100 i6s. ; 
 and seven dinners with an average attendance of 22 would cost 
 112. There might thus be a deficiency of 11 45. ; to this must 
 be added 10 or 12 for printing and other expenses, besides a 
 small sum for cigars or cigarettes. Even so, however, no very 
 serious inroad would be made on the cash balance of 150. 
 
 Have recent events tended to confirm the faith of 
 believers in laisser faire ? Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS.
 
 1915 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 179 
 
 March yd. 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Keynes, Herbert Samuel, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. C. E. 
 Mallet, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Stebbing, Owen Fleming, 
 Martin-Holland, Grenfell, Jackson, B. Mallet, Sir Theodore Mori- 
 son, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Acworth, Norman Angell, Sir 
 Felix Schuster, Messrs. Evelyn Hubbard, Hirst. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. R. Benson, J. W. Wilson, Henry Oppen- 
 heimer, and Captain Richmond, R.N. 
 
 The unanimous election of Sir Mackenzie Chalmers as an 
 Ordinary Member was announced. 
 
 What are the economic gains and losses of this war, and 
 how do they affect nations and classes ? Mr. F. W. HIRST. 
 
 March 
 Mr. F. W. HIRST, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Martin -Holland, Bowley, Keynes, Professor Foxwell, 
 Mr. Owen Fleming, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Hartley Withers, B. 
 Mallet, Jackson, Sir Theodore Morison, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, 
 Herbert Samuel, Acworth, Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Sir John 
 Macdonell, Sir Felix Schuster, Earl Brassey. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Edward Ward, Messrs. A. Paterson, Bernard 
 Holland, Edward Pellew, Hon. Robert Brand, Messrs. Grasty, 
 Cyril Jackson, W. P. Layton, Lieut. Commander Sladen, R.N., 
 Mr. Seligman. 
 
 The unanimous election of Mr. Harold Cox as an Ordinary 
 Member was announced. 
 
 What will be the effect on industrial conditions of the 
 return to civil life of those who join the army, and what 
 preparations, if any, should be made to deal with the 
 situation ? Mr. F. H. JACKSON.
 
 180 Political Economy Club 1915 
 
 May 5th. 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Murray, Messrs. Martin-Holland, Evelyn Hubbard, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Harold Cox, Professor Foxwell, Lord 
 Courtney, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. F. W. Hirst, B. Mallet, 
 Keynes, Wynnard Hooper, Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Mr. Hartley 
 Withers, Sir Felix Schuster, Earl Brassey, Mr. Acworth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. J. B. Capper, R. H. Selbie, Sir Hubert 
 Walker, Messrs. W. Tetley, Stephenson, Ernest Rowntree, 
 Sec. Lieut. Victor Mallet, Sir Clarendon Hyde. 
 
 Does recent war experience afford any argument for or 
 against State ownership of Railways ? 
 
 Mr. W. M. ACWORTH. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 Sir JOHN MACDONELL, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Hartley Withers, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Martin- 
 Holland, Harold Cox, B. Mallet, Hubbard, Hirst, Lord Courtney. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Thomas Whittaker, Messrs. J. B. Atkins, Kenneth 
 Matheson, Bishop of Willesden. 
 
 It was agreed to hold a meeting in July. 
 
 To what extent do the drinking habits of a community 
 affect its industrial efficiency ? 
 
 Sir MACKENZIE CHALMERS. 
 
 July jth. 
 Sir MACKENZIE CHALMERS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Harold Cox, Professor Foxwell, Lord George Hamilton, 
 Major Darwin, Mr. Stebbing, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Wynnard
 
 1915 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 181 
 
 Hooper, Evelyn Hubbard, Acworth, Hartley Withers, Sir George 
 Gibb, Mr. Hirst, Lord Courtney, Sir John Macdonell, 
 Mr. Bowley, Sir Theodore Morison, Messrs. Martin-Holland, 
 Charles Mallet, Bernard Mallet, and Professor Ashley. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Ronald Norman, Moreton Frewen, J. A. 
 Hobson, Vaughan Nash, Sir Clarendon Hyde, Sir George 
 Paish, R. C. Nesbitt, Viscount Midleton, Messrs. Victor Mallet, 
 W. E. A. Ridsdale, Edward Graham, Professor Chapman, 
 Mr. Vassar Smith, and another. 
 
 Is it desirable, in order to finance the war, to make heavy 
 additions to taxation and drastic reductions in civil expendi- 
 ture ? Mr. HAROLD Cox. 
 
 December ist. 
 Mr. F. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Murray, Messrs. Herbert Samuel, Hartley Withers, 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Major Leonard Darwin, Messrs. Charles 
 Mallet, Hirst, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. St. Loe Strachey, Sir 
 Hugh Bell, Messrs. B. Mallet, Higgs, Strutt, Hubbard, Harold 
 Cox, Lord Courtney, Professor Foxwell, Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, 
 Mr. Keynes, Sir George Gibb, Mr. Martin-Holland, Professor 
 Pigou. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Sumner, Mr. Dudley Ward, Lord Eustace 
 Percy, Messrs. M. C. Norman, Ronald Norman, Professor Roested 
 (Christiania), Mr. J. Beaumont Pease, Sir George Paish, Messrs. 
 Stewart, A. W. Kiddy, Dr. J. H. Clapham, Messrs. Moreton 
 Frewen, John Bailey, Masterton Smith, F. R. S. Balfour, F. C. 
 Harrison, C.S.I. 
 
 The death of Lord Welby was referred to by Lord Courtney, 
 who expressed the great regret of the Club at this loss. 
 
 What is the real financial problem presented by the war, 
 and are the measures so far taken adequate to meet it ? 
 
 Professor FOXWELL.
 
 182 Political Economy Club 1916 
 
 1916. February 2nd. 
 Professor EDGEWORTH, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Higgs. Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Martin-Holland, Sir Mac- 
 kenzie Chalmers, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, Hirst, Acworth, 
 Sir John Bradbury, Mr. F. H. Jackson, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. B. 
 Mallet, Strachey, Professor Edgeworth, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. 
 Strutt, Harold Cox, Hubbard, Sir John Macdonell, Lord Courtney, 
 Mr. C. Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Frank Chaplin, Lewis Huth Walters, 
 Charles J. Stewart, H. A. Armistead, Edwin Savill, H. E. Morgan, 
 R. C. Nesbitt, Anthony Hope Hawkins, and Sir Thomas R. 
 Ratcliffe Ellis. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual statement on the finances of the 
 Club. The income for the year 1915 (including 22 155. nd. 
 from investments) was 106 155. nd., while the expenditure 
 was 135 us. gd., showing a deficiency of 28 155. iod., which 
 has been met from the balance in hand, thereby reduced from 
 150 I2S. 6d. on January i, 1915, to 121 i6s. 8d. on January I, 
 1916. This deficiency was rather larger than he had anticipated 
 owing to the fact that the average attendance at the dinners 
 in 1915 was much larger than in any previous year, and also to 
 the fact that seven dinners took place in 1915 as against six in 
 1914. The average attendance in 1915 was 28, against 22 in 
 1914, 17 in 1913, and 19 in 1912. At the July dinner the Club 
 sat down 35, and at the December dinner 39, both in the memory 
 of the Secretary absolutely record attendances. The actual 
 cost of the seven dinners, however, in spite of the increased 
 numbers was slightly less than that of the six dinners in 1914, 
 owing to the reduction in price which had been effected. The 
 Treasurer thought that the financial results of the past year 
 seemed to have justified the reduction of the annual subscription 
 from 4 45. od. to 2 2s. od., at which figure it might probably 
 be left for some years to come without affecting the financial 
 stability of the Club. He added that it might perhaps interest 
 Members to know that in 1915 out of the total, 199, present at 
 the dinners 69 had been visitors.
 
 1916 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 183 
 
 Some discussion took place on the project which had been for 
 the last few years in abeyance to write a history of the Club. 
 The Secretary gave an account of the materials which he had 
 collected ; and at the motion of Sir Hugh Bell, seconded by Mr. 
 St. Loe Strachey, Mr. Higgs was appointed Historiographer and 
 requested to produce a history at some date before the centenary 
 of the Club in 1921. 
 
 Are there grounds for anticipating a complete change 
 after the war in our commercial relations with other 
 countries ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLES E. MALLET. 
 
 March ist. 
 Mr. CHARLES E. MALLET, Chair. 
 
 Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, Hirst, 
 Trevelyan, Herbert Samuel, Strachey, Jackson, Sir Theodore 
 Morison, Messrs. Hubbard, Higgs, Keynes, Martin-Holland, 
 Professors Foxwell, Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, Hartley Withers, 
 Harold Cox, Acworth, Sir John Macdonell, Mr. Stebbing, Sir 
 George Gibb, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir Hugh Bell. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Charles Chadwyck-Healey, K.C.B., K.C., Mr. 
 W. E. Home, M.P., Messrs. R. Grant, Owen H. Smith, George 
 Young, Lieut. Stephen Gordon, Lord Inchcape, The Rt. Hon. Sir 
 Maurice de Bunsen, G.C.M.G., Mr. G. J. H. Lloyd, Lieut.-Col. 
 H. R. Beddoes, Sir George Paish, Sir Clarendon Hyde, Mr. U. F. 
 Wintour, C.M.G., and Lord Airedale. 
 
 The Secretary announced the unanimous election of Lord 
 Sumner as an ordinary Member ; and expressed the regret of the 
 Club at the death of Lord Ridley. 
 
 Could we if we would, and would we if we could, capture 
 German trade ? 
 
 Sir HUGH BELL.
 
 184 Political Economy Club 1916 
 
 April $th. 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Professor Ashley, Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Mr. Stebbing, Lord 
 Courtney, Messrs. Bowley, Keynes, Acworth, Sir Felix Schuster, 
 Messrs. Hartley Withers, Wynnard Hooper, Jackson, Herbert 
 Gibbs, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. B. Mallet, Higgs, Martin- 
 Holland, E. Hubbard, Sir George Gibb, Professor Edgeworth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. H. H. O'Farrell, A. E. Zimmern, J. Roberts, 
 George Pember, John Murray, Stebbing, Sir George Askwith, 
 Mr. Dudley Ward. 
 
 The unanimous election of the Hon. Robert H. Brand, C.M.G., 
 was announced. 
 
 Have the wages increases granted since the outbreak of 
 war been desirable, in view of existing and prospective 
 economic conditions, as well as inevitable ? 
 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB. 
 
 May 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Charles Mallet, Lord Courtney, Messrs. Acworth, Hartley 
 Withers, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Martin-Holland , 
 Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Messrs. Hubbard, B. Mallet, Brand, 
 Jackson, Harold Cox, Higgs, Hirst, Wynnard Hooper, Professor 
 Foxwell, Sir John Macdonell. 
 
 Visitors: Messrs. Bernard Townsend, Henry Bell, R. N. 
 Schumacher, J. H. Walters, J. Annan Bryce, M.P., Judge Bray. 
 
 Do British banks give sufficient support to the industry 
 and commerce of the country, and if not can any remedy be 
 suggested ? Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER.
 
 ig 16 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 185 
 
 June yth. 
 Mr. WYNNARD HOOPER, Chair. 
 
 Lord Sumner, Mr. Charles Mallet, Sir Felix Schuster, Professpr 
 Edgeworth, Messrs. Keynes, Grenfell, Professor Pigou, Sir 
 Mackenzie Chalmers, Messrs. B. Mallet, Jackson, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Mr. Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Sir George Gibb, Sir John Mac- 
 donell, Mr. Hubbard, Sir George Murray, Mr. Harold Cox. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Seebohm Rowntree, John Wormald, B. P. 
 Blackett, C.B., Professor Chapman, Mr. Justice Shearman. 
 
 Is it possible to devise any form of industrial reconstruc- 
 tion which would obviate the threatened danger of industrial 
 revolt ? Mr. HAROLD Cox. 
 
 November ist. 
 Mr. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir Felix Schuster, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Charles Mallet, 
 Brand, Hirst, Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Strachey, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Grenfell, Wynnard Hooper, Higgs, 
 Acworth, Harold Cox, Martin-Holland, Keynes, Professor 
 Ashley, Lord Courtney. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. W. Kiddy, J. A. Hobson, Drummond 
 Fraser, C. D. Medley, Captain Herbert Richmond, R.N., Messrs. 
 F. C. Harrison, Percy Ashley, Rt. Hon. J. M. Robertson, M.P. 
 
 Does there exist at the present time any inflation of our 
 currency of a kind which it is within the power of Govern- 
 ment to check or control ? Professor FOXWELL. 
 
 1917. February jth. 
 Professor FOXWELL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Higgs, Bowley, Professors Edgeworth, Pigou, Messrs. 
 Keynes, Strachey, Professor Ashley, Lord Courtney, Messrs.
 
 186 Political Economy Club 1917 
 
 Evelyn Hubbard, Jackson, Sir Bernard Mallet, Lord George 
 Hamilton, Messrs. Harold Cox, Herbert Samuel, Holland-Martin, 
 Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, Hartley Withers. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. C. D. Seligman, H. Wilson Fox, G. I. H. 
 Lloyd, N. F. Warren Fisher, C.B., R. F. Loree, D. W. Corrie, 
 J. A. Longley, and the Rt. Hon. H. A. Fisher, M.P. 
 
 The Treasurer made his annual financial statement as follows : 
 
 The income for the year (including 16 us. 3d. from interest 
 on investments) was 93 45. 3d., while the expenditure was 
 122 45. 4d., showing a deficiency of 29 os. id., which has been 
 met from the balance in hand. The Club had begun the year 
 with a balance of 121 6s. 8d., and now carried forward a balance 
 of 92 IDS. 7d. 
 
 But the financial position was really better than this, as five 
 Members failed to pay their subscriptions in the course of the 
 year 1916. Had they done so, the deficiency on that year would 
 only have been 18 los. id., which the Treasurer thought was 
 quite satisfactory, and would justify him in maintaining the 
 annual subscription at two guineas for the present. 
 
 The number of diners in 1916 was 172, against 199 in 1915 ; 
 but as the meetings held in the year were one less than in the 
 previous year, the average attendance per meeting was the 
 same (over 28). This compares with 22 in 1914 and 17 in 1913, 
 and was satisfactory evidence that the continuance of the meetings 
 of the Club during the war was appreciated by the Members. 
 The Club entertained 50 guests, against 69 in 1915. 
 
 This dinner was held at the Imperial Restaurant, Regent 
 Street, the Hotel Cecil having been commandeered since the last 
 meeting for Government purposes. The Secretary having raised 
 the question of future dinners, it was decided to continue them 
 for the Session in the present quarters. 
 
 Does the war necessitate a considerable increase in 
 taxation, and if so, along what lines should it go ? 
 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS.
 
 1917 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 187 
 
 March jth. 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Professor Ashley, Messrs. F. W. Hirst, 
 Stebbing, Lord Courtney, Lord Sumner, Mr. F. H. Jackson, 
 Sir Bernard Mallet, Mr. Herbert Gibbs, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. 
 Strachey, Higgs, Major Darwin, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. 
 Holland-Martin, Charles Mallet, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Hubbard. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Owen Hugh Smith, John H. Atkins, Lord 
 Justice Bankes, Messrs. Birch Crisp, Mark Stebbing, and L. H. 
 Walters. 
 
 The Secretary announced that Sir Edgar Speyer had resigned 
 his membership of the Club, and propounded the question 
 whether an alteration in the system of election should not be 
 instituted. After some discussion, the Club decided that the 
 Committee should bring up a report on the whole subject at the 
 next meeting. 
 
 What should be the objects of our economic policy after 
 the war, and on what lines should reconstruction proceed ? 
 
 Mr. EVELYN HUBBARD. 
 
 April qth. 
 Mr. F. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Professor Ashley, Mr. Stebbing, Lord Courtney, Messrs. 
 Trevelyan, Hirst, Holland-Martin, Harold Cox, Strachey, Sir 
 John Macdonell, Mr. Hartley Withers, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. 
 Higgs, Professor Foxwell, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir Bernard Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Clarendon Hyde, Mr. Owen H. Smith, Professor 
 Kirkaldy, Mr. Robert Grant, Jun., Dr. Mellanby, Messrs. F. A. 
 White, H. A. Andreas, and Captain Victor Mallet. 
 
 Whom does dumping harm ? Sir HUGH BELL.
 
 i88 Political Economy Club 1917 
 
 May 2nd. 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Mr. E. C. Grenfell, Sir J. Macdonell, Mr. Hartley Withers, 
 Professor Ashley, Messrs. Keynes, Holland-Martin, Harold Cox, 
 Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Evelyn Hubbard, Wynnard Hooper, 
 Professor Foxwell, Mr. A. L. Bowley, Professor Pigou, Lord 
 Courtney, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Hirst, Jackson, H. Samuel, 
 Sir Felix Schuster. 
 
 Visitors : Professor H. O. Meredith, Dr. Stevenson, Messrs. 
 J. H. Chapman, H. H. Armitsted, de Montmorency, W. Page, 
 Sir Robert Chalmers, Messrs. W. E. Thomas, J. B. Atkins, and 
 R. H. Benson. 
 
 The Club decided that there should be a meeting in June. 
 This dinner, however, did not take place, and one in July was 
 substituted for it. 
 
 Is State aid to our industries after the war needful or 
 desirable ? Sir FELIX SCHUSTER. 
 
 July qth. 
 Sir FELIX SCHUSTER, Chair. 
 
 Lord Courtney, Sir Charles Mallet, Mr. Holland-Martin, Sir 
 Hugh Bell, Lord Sumner, Sir Bernard Mallet, Professor Foxwell, 
 Mr. Hubbard, Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. A. L. Bowley, Higgs, 
 Acworth, Hirst, F. Huth Jackson. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. W. Kiddy, J. E. Dunning, J. A. Hobson, 
 Henry Bell, D. Milne Watson, and Robert Grant, Jun. 
 
 It was resolved that no guests should be invited to the Novem- 
 ber dinner, in order that the Club might discuss the new Rules. 
 No decision was arrived at whether any other subject should be 
 discussed.
 
 1917 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 189 
 
 What are the radical defects in the present relations 
 between English finance and English industry, and how far 
 are we going the right way to remedy them ? 
 
 Professor H. S. FOXWELL. 
 
 November jth. 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir Bernard Mallet, Sir Charles Mallet, Lord Courtney, Sir John 
 Macdonell, Mr. Hirst, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Herbert Samuel, 
 Higgs, Keynes, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Pro- 
 fessor Edgeworth, Messrs. Foxwell, Holland-Martin, Harold Cox, 
 Hartley Withers, Acworth, Sir Hugh Bell. 
 
 The first subject for discussion was the proposed new Rules 
 which had been drawn up by the Committee in accordance with 
 the resolution taken at the March dinner and presented in July. 
 No visitors were invited on this occasion. The Rules were taken 
 seriatim, and many amendments proposed and discussed ; but 
 the only serious alterations in them which were carried were the 
 addition of two more meetings (in July and October), making 
 nine in the year, and the election of three Members to the Com- 
 mittee, besides the Treasurer and Secretary. These, and the 
 Rule for the election of ordinary Members, framed on the model 
 of other ordinary Clubs in which it has worked successfully, 
 constitute the main changes effected, but the opportunity has 
 been taken to drop certain Rules which have become obsolete. 
 
 The Secretary was instructed to enter on the minutes that it 
 should be his duty to remind Members, when circulating the 
 notices for the December dinner, that they should send him the 
 name of any gentleman proposed for election, together with 
 the name of his seconder and a short statement of his qualifica- 
 tions before the ist of January in each year. He was also 
 requested to purchase two ten-minute sand-glasses to be placed 
 on the dinner-tables at the meetings.
 
 190 Political Economy Club 1917 
 
 No time was left for the discussion of Sir Hugh Bell's question 
 about the Income Tax, which was therefore postponed to 
 December. 
 
 December $th. 
 Sir FELIX SCHUSTER, Chair. 
 
 Lord Sumner, Sir John Macdonell, Sir G. Gibb, Lord Courtney, 
 Mr. Jackson, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Acworth, Grenfell, 
 Harold Cox, Holland-Martin, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Hartley 
 Withers, Sir Hugh Bell. 
 
 The Secretary announced the resignation of Lieut. -Col. Buchan, 
 which was accepted with regret. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. W. V. Osborae, J. C. Stamp, Major R. W. 
 Ffennell. 
 
 The new Rules were again shortly discussed, and, on the 
 recommendation of the Committee, the decision to add two more 
 obligatory dinners (in July and October) was reversed. The 
 Committee was instructed to formulate a regulation for the 
 election of the new Committee. Subject to these decisions the 
 Rules were confirmed. 
 
 How shall we levy Income Tax after the war ? 
 
 Sir HUGH BELL. 
 
 1918. February 6th. 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Murray, Mr. F. H. Jackson, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. 
 Holland-Martin, Major Darwin, Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Lord 
 Sumner, Messrs. Stebbing, Hubbard, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. 
 Hartley Withers, Pember Reeves, Hirst, Bowley, Professors 
 Pigou, Edgeworth, Messrs. Keynes, Gibbs, Grenfell, Sir George 
 Gibb, Messrs. Foxwell, Harold Cox, Sir Charles Mallet.
 
 1918 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 191 
 
 Visitors : Mr. H. V. Reade, C.B., Colonel Godfrey Collins, 
 M.P., Messrs. Geoffrey Marks, E. A. Ridsdale, Colonel Bather, 
 Messrs. Mark Stebbing, and Spencer Portal. 
 
 The Secretary declared the result of the voting for new members, 
 the voting papers having been counted by himself and Sir George 
 Murray, as follows : Sir Alfred Booth, 28 votes ; Mr. W. L. 
 Hichens, 18 ; Mr. J. C. Stamp, 16 ; and Mr. G. B. Dibblee and 
 Mr. A. F. Pease, 15 votes each. As in case of equality of votes 
 the candidates by Rule 9 are to be taken in alphabetical order, 
 the first four candidates were submitted separately for ballot and 
 all four were duly elected to the four vacancies. 
 
 The suggestion circulated by the Treasurer and Secretary as 
 to procedure to be followed this year in the election of a new 
 member to the Committee having been accepted, the Chairman 
 proposed the election of Mr. Holland-Martin, which was carried 
 unanimously by a show of hands. 
 
 The Treasurer then read the following statement on the 
 finances of the club for 1917 : 
 
 " The income for the year (including 15 153. from interest on 
 investments) was 112 73., while the expenditure was 102 135. 2d., 
 showing a surplus of 9 135. rod., which has been added to the 
 balance in hand. 
 
 " We started the year 1918 with a balance of 102 ros. 5d. 
 against an amount brought in of 92 i6s. 7d. But the income 
 from subscriptions in 1917 does not quite give a correct view of 
 the situation. I pointed out last year that five members had 
 failed to pay their subscriptions in the course of the year 1916. 
 Of these members two have resigned, and the other three have 
 paid in 1917 their subscriptions for the previous year. Further 
 six members still continued to pay their subscriptions in 1917 at 
 the rate of 4 43., while one member not only paid his subscription 
 of 4 45., but at the close of the year paid another subscription of 
 4 43., which has been refunded to him in 1918. Still the financial 
 position of the Club may be considered quite satisfactory, and 
 justifies the Committee in maintaining the annual subscription 
 at 2 2S. for the present.
 
 192 Political Economy Club 1918 
 
 " I may add that the number of diners in 1917 was 163 against 
 172 in 1916. This gives an average attendance of just over 23, 
 against an average for the previous two years of just over 28. 
 The number of guests entertained was 41, against 50 in the 
 previous year ; but this does not, I think, indicate any decrease 
 in the hospitality extended by the club, because, if you will 
 remember, visitors were excluded from our November meeting 
 when we discussed the new rules." 
 
 Is a levy on capital feasible or fair ? 
 
 Sir CHARLES MALLET. 
 
 March 6th. 
 Sir CHARLES MALLET, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Wynnard Hooper, Sir John Macdonell, Lord Courtney, 
 Messrs. Grenfell, Foxwell, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Higgs, Sir 
 Bernard Mallet, Sir Alfred Booth, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir Felix 
 Schuster, Messrs. J. C. Stamp, G. B. Dibblee, Jackson, Harold 
 Cox, Herbert Samuel, Hartley Withers, Holland-Martin, Major 
 Darwin. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. Ponsonby, Alfred Cole, Professor W. R. 
 Scott, Mr. de Jastrzebski, the Dean of St. Paul's, and Mr. 
 Theodore Chambers. 
 
 The Secretary referred to the great loss sustained by the Club 
 in the death of Lord Brassey, and it was resolved to convey to 
 Lady Brassey an expression of the deep sympathy of the members. 
 
 Is it desirable by means of definite Malthusian pro- 
 paganda to check the uncontrolled increase of the human 
 race ? Mr. HAROLD Cox. 
 
 April yd. 
 Mr. HAROLD Cox, Chair. 
 
 Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Stebbing, Stamp, Sir George 
 Murray, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Hartley Withers, Sir Alfred
 
 igi8 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 193 
 
 Booth, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Hichens, Samuel, Higgs, 
 Hubbard, Holland-Martin, Bowley, Professor Foxwell. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Herbert E. Morgan, Mr. John Murray, and Mr. 
 H. M. Spalding. 
 
 Is there evidence that the working-class families have 
 so far benefited by the war ? Mr. A. L. BOWLEY. 
 
 May i st. 
 Mr. F. H. JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Holland-Martin, Dibblee, Hichens, Harold Cox, Hartley 
 Withers, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Foxwell, Higgs, Hubbard, 
 Wynnard Hooper, Stamp, Professors Edgeworth, Pigou, Mr. 
 Herbert Samuel. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. H. Brodrick, Sydney Chapman, C.B.E., 
 A. C. Cole, Sir Robert Morant, Mr. A. E. Zimmern, Dr. Sprigge, 
 and Mr. John Murray. 
 
 Should men and women receive equal pay for equal 
 work ? Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL. 
 
 June $th. 
 Mr. HOLLAND-MARTIN, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Harold Cox, Hubbard, Higgs, Trevelyan, Sir Charles 
 Mallet, Messrs. Foxwell, Hichens, Jackson, Hartley Withers, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Bowley, Stamp, Sir George Gibb, 
 Mr. Hirst, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir John Macdonell, Sir Bernard Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Inchcape, the Bishop of London, Messrs. 
 J. I. Craig, A. E. Zimmern, E. F. Hitchcock, G. Bromley Martin, 
 Robert Dell, Professor A. W. Kirkaldy, and Sir Julian Corbett. 
 
 It was decided to hold an additional meeting in July. A 
 resolution was moved by Sir John Macdonell, and seconded by
 
 1 94 Political Economy Club 1918 
 
 Mr. Henry Higgs, that there be entered in the minutes an expres- 
 sion of the deep sense of the irreparable loss which the Club had 
 suffered by the death of Lord Courtney of Penwith ; and the 
 Secretary was instructed to send to Lady Courtney a copy of the 
 resolution together with an expression of sympathy. 
 
 What functions could usefully be undertaken by an 
 economic section of the League of Nations ? 
 
 Mr. W. L. HICHENS. 
 
 July yd. 
 Mr. W. L. HICHENS, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Harold Cox, Sir Charles Mallet, Lord Sumner, Messrs. 
 Jackson, Hirst, Acworth, Sir Bernard Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, Sir John Macdonell, Messrs. Higgs, Holland- 
 Martin, Stamp, Foxwell, Sir Felix Schuster. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Milne Watson, Arthur F. Pease, Lionel 
 Curtis, Sir Robert Kindersley, and Mr. Richard Holt, M.P. 
 
 What, if any, direct relations exist between wages and 
 profits in any particular industry or industries generally ? 
 
 Sir HUGH BELL. 
 
 November 6th. 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Jackson, Acworth, Holland-Martin, Harold Cox, Sir 
 Felix Schuster, Sir Bernard Mallet, Sir Theodore Morison, Messrs. 
 Foxwell, Hichens, Wynnard Hooper, Hubbard, Sir George Gibb, 
 Mr. Robert Brand, Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Hartley Withers. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. H. Dubery, C. E. Beckhofer, John Murray, 
 and Sir Herbert Walker, K.C.B. 
 
 Do National Guilds promise a satisfactory mode of 
 economic reform ? Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS.
 
 1918 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 195 
 
 December $th. 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS. 
 
 Sir George Murray, Sir Hugh Bell, Messrs. Acworth, Hubbard, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Bowley, Brand, 
 Hichens, Stamp, Holland-Martin, Sir Felix Schuster, Lord 
 Simmer, Mr. Jackson, Sir Theodore Morison, Sir Alfred Booth. 
 
 Visitors : Mr. William Russell, C.B., Captain Gretton, and Mr. 
 Graham Wallas. 
 
 Is price the only practical criterion of distribution ? 
 
 Sir ALFRED BOOTH. 
 
 1919. February $th. 
 Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Foxwell, Herbert Gibbs, Hirst, Sir Alfred Booth, 
 Sir Hugh Bell, Mr. Dibblee, Sir Theodore Morison, Sir Charles 
 Mallet, Professors Edgeworth, Bowley, Messrs. Acworth, Hartley 
 Withers, Stamp, Hubbard, Jackson, Sir Bernard Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Captain A. S. Christopher, Sir Charles Addis, Messrs. 
 J. E. Allen, Owen Hugh Smith, Henry Bell, W. Piercy and 
 R. C. Nesbitt. 
 
 The Secretary announced that the voting for the two new 
 ordinary members had resulted as follows, the voting papers 
 having been counted by himself and Mr. Jackson : Lord Inchcape, 
 proposed by Mr. Harold Cox and seconded by Mr. Holland-Martin, 
 19 votes ; and Mr. Dominick Spring Rice, proposed by Sir 
 Bernard Mallet and seconded by Mr. R. H. Brand, 14 votes. 
 These candidates were then submitted separately for ballot, and 
 both were duly elected. 
 
 In accordance with the terms of a notice circulated by the 
 Treasurer and Secretary, Mr. Hartley Withers was proposed as 
 a member of the Committee to fill the place vacated by the death 
 of Lord Courtney, and elected unanimously on a show of hands.
 
 196 Political Economy Club 1919 
 
 It was decided, on the motion of Mr. Acworth, that in future 
 the Secretary should remind members at the December meeting 
 or before of the vacancy which would be caused by the retirement 
 of one of the elected members, so that they might have an 
 opportunity of deciding on a candidate for election at the ensuing 
 February meeting. 
 
 The Treasurer, in making his annual financial statement, 
 observed that the income for the year 1918, including 15 45. 6d. 
 interest on the 600 3^ per cent, war loan was 95 os. 6d., while 
 the expenditure (which was larger than usual owing to there 
 having been eight dinners instead of the usual seven) was 
 140 43. 5d., the result being that the credit balance with which 
 the year started 102 zos. 5d. had been reduced to 57 6s. 6d. 
 
 The income from subscriptions for the year was affected by 
 certain irregularities which he hoped might in time be got rid of. 
 For instance, the member who in 1917 paid a subscription at 
 the rate of 4 45. at the close of the year when he had already 
 paid his subscription at the same rate at the beginning of the 
 year had repeated this operation; while six members who had 
 paid 4 45. in 1917 did not, of course, pay any fresh subscription 
 in 1918. On the other hand, two subscriptions for 1917 were 
 paid in 1918. If members could be relied on to pay their sub- 
 scription for each year and no more, and if the number of dinners 
 was restricted to seven in each year, it would, he thought, be 
 possible to continue the present rate of subscription for two or 
 three years longer without serious danger to the financial position 
 of the Club. 
 
 It might, he thought, interest members to know that in 1918 
 the Club entertained 43 guests, as against 40 in 1917 ; and that 
 the total attendance was 185, as against 162 in 1917, while the 
 average for the dinners (8 as against 7) was practically the same, 
 namely, 23. A suggestion that with a view to economy cigars 
 should no longer be supplied at the dinners was negatived. 
 
 What is the soundest method of levying a large sum 
 by way of reparation and indemnity from Germany ? 
 
 Mr. G. B. DIBBLEE.
 
 ig 1 9 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 197 
 
 March $th. 
 Mr. ACWORTH, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Higgs, Herbert Samuel, Professors Edgeworth, 
 Bowley, Sir Theodore Morison, Major Darwin, Sir Charles Mallet, 
 Messrs. Harold Cox, Wynnard Hooper, Sir John Macdonell, 
 Messrs. Hartley Withers, Stamp, Holland-Martin, Sir Felix 
 Schuster, Messrs. Evelyn Hubbard, Spring Rice, Sir Bernard 
 Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. H. Brodrick and Ian Colvin. 
 
 Is there any necessary discrepancy between the main 
 principles of the free trade economists and the ideals of 
 national patriotism ? Mr. HAROLD Cox. 
 
 April 2nd. 
 Mr. HAROLD Cox, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Higgs, Dibblee, Hichens, Spring Rice, Sir Hugh Bell, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Mr. Evelyn Hubbard, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Sir George Gibb, Sir Alfred Booth, Mr. Herbert Gibbs, Sir Felix 
 Schuster, Messrs. Grenfell, Holland-Martin, Hirst, Sir John 
 Macdonell, Mr. Acworth. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Taketoshi, Jerome K. Jerome, Lieut. -Colonel 
 Sir Godfrey Collins, C.M.G., M.P., Major-General Sir Philip Nash, 
 K.C.M.G., C.B., Mr. S. Sheldrake, Colonel Waley Cohen, Mr. C. S. 
 Davison, Lord Farrer, Professor Meredith, Mr. R. H. Selbie, 
 and Baron Emile d'Erlanger. 
 
 Is the proposed drastic centralized control of the means 
 of transport justified under present circumstances ? 
 
 Mr. ACWORTH. 
 
 May jth. 
 
 Mr. F. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 Mr. Holland-Martin, Sir Alfred Booth, Messrs. Lionel Hichens,
 
 198 Political Economy Club 1919 
 
 J. C. Stamp, Professor Foxwell, Mr. Higgs, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, Stebbing, Professors 
 Bowley, Pigou, Mr. Spring Rice. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. A. C. Cole, Lothian D. Nicholson, Mark 
 Stebbing, Lieut. -Commander E. Hilton Young, D.S.O., M.P., 
 and Sir Percy Bates, Bart. 
 
 The date of the next meeting was discussed, and it was decided 
 that in view of the difficulty of securing the large room at the 
 Imperial Restaurant at the usual date, the dinner should take 
 place in the last week of June or the first week in July. 
 
 To what extent is the increase of legal tender currency in 
 this country to be considered dangerous to the prospects of 
 reconstruction ? Mr. DOMINICK SPRING RICE. 
 
 June 2$th. 
 Mr. SPRING RICE, Chair. 
 
 Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Mr. R. Brand, Professors Bowley, 
 Foxwell, Mr. Acworth, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Higgs, Hartley 
 Withers, Sir Felix Schuster, Messrs. Dibblee, Lionel Hichens, 
 Stamp. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. Geoffrey Marks, Norman Hird, R. V. N. 
 Hopkins, C.B., W. Mackintosh, Harry F. Grady, and M. Yves- 
 Guy ot. 
 
 On the motion of the Hon. Secretary, seconded by Mr. Acworth, 
 it was resolved unanimously to elect Monsieur Yves-Guyot, 
 President of the Societ6 d'Economie Politique in Paris, as the 
 first Honorary Foreign Member under the new rules. 
 
 Is capital or income the better test of " ability to pay " 
 in taxation ? Dr. J. C. STAMP. 
 
 November $th. 
 Lord SUMNER, Chair. 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, Professor Edgeworth, Sir Charles Mallet, 
 Mr. Hirst, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir George Gibb, Professor Pigou, Sir
 
 1919 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 199 
 
 Alfred Booth, Professors Bowley, Foxwell, Mr. Lionel Hichens, 
 Dr. Stamp, Sir Felix Schuster, Sir Bernard Mallet, Messrs. Keynes, 
 Acworth, Hartley Withers, Spring Rice, Jackson, Sir Mackenzie 
 Chalmers, Messrs. Higgs, Hubbard, Grenfell, Holland-Martin, 
 Lord George Hamilton. 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. G. L. Barstow, C.B., Oswald Falk, L. H. 
 Walters, C. D. Seligman, Lord Addington, Sir Charles Addis, 
 Mr. Ernest Clark, C.B.E., Captain Ronald Hamilton, Professor 
 Gini (of Padua), Canon Barnes, Professor Shobwell, Messrs. P. J. 
 Baker, Geoffrey Marks, B. P. Blackett, C.B., and Sir Thomas 
 Roy den, Bart. 
 
 Is a capital tax on fortunes made during the war desirable 
 and practicable ? Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL. 
 
 December yd. 
 Mr. F. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Messrs. Higgs, Dibblee, Sir Charles 
 Mallet, Messrs. Harold Cox, Lionel Hichens, Holland- Martin, 
 Hubbard, St. Loe Strachey, Sir Bernard Mallet, Sir Alfred Booth, 
 Professor Edgeworth, Messrs. Wynnard Hooper, Spring Rice, 
 Strutt, Sir George Gibb, Professor Foxwell, Messrs. Hartley 
 Withers, Acworth. 
 
 Visitors : Lord Emmott, G.C.M.G., G.B.E., Mr. H. D. O'Neill, 
 Lord Ashton of Hyde, Mr. Chance, Sir Alexander Lawrence, Bart., 
 Messrs. A. H. Brodrick, G. M. Booth, Captain Schreiner, M.C., 
 and Mr. Drummond Fraser. 
 
 Mr. Jackson referred to the decision of Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 announced at the last dinner, to resign the office of Honorary 
 Secretary, which he had held for nearly twenty-one years ; and 
 in expressing the regret of the Club at the loss of his services 
 made a presentation to him on behalf of the members, which was 
 gratefully acknowledged by the retiring Secretary. Mr. Dominick 
 Spring Rice was then proposed, and unanimously elected to the 
 Secretaryship. 
 
 Mr. Jackson then raised the question of the Club's finances,
 
 2OO Political Economy Club 19 J 9 
 
 and stated the nature of the replies which he had received to 
 his circular letter to members, drawing attention to the fact 
 that it would be impossible to go on with the present reduced 
 rate of subscription without drawing on the Club's invested fund. 
 A motion by Mr. Withers, seconded by Mr. Harold Cox, " that 
 members in future pay 75. 6d. for each guest introduced by them " 
 having been negatived by 12 to 7 votes, it was proposed by Sir 
 Charles Mallet and seconded by Mr. Spring Rice " that the 
 subscription for 1920 be raised to three guineas." The motion 
 was carried by 14 to i. 
 
 Is it desirable that mines and railways should be 
 nationalized, i.e. put under the control and management of 
 State departments responsible to Parliament ? 
 
 Sir MACKENZIE CHALMERS. 
 
 1920. January 28th. 
 Sir BERNARD MALLET, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Hartley Withers, Lionel Hichens, Harold Cox, Sir 
 George Gibb, Professors Foxwell, Edgeworth, Messrs. Spring 
 Rice, Higgs, Brand, Sir Charles Mallet, Sir Hugh Bell, Sir Felix 
 Schuster, Messrs. Gibbs, Grenfell, Hirst. 
 
 Visitors : Sir Charles Addis, Sir Robert Kindersley, M. 
 Kronacher, F. C. Harrison, C.S.I., Major Colley, Mr. Neal Green, 
 Professor Francesco Bernes, Messrs. Wliigham, Owen Smith, and 
 Sir George Whitehead, Bart. 
 
 Mr. Withers proposed, and Mr. Hichens seconded, that Sir 
 Bernard Mallet be elected to the Committee in place of Sir 
 George Murray, who retired by rotation ; the motion was carried 
 unanimously. 
 
 The Secretary then announced the result of the voting for 
 two new ordinary members, and a ballot was begun, as the 
 result of which Mr. Oswald Falk, C.B.E., was duly elected. On 
 the motion of Mr. Herbert Gibbs, seconded by Mr. Grenfell, it was 
 decided that the ballot should not be completed at this time. 
 The Committee were desired to decide what further action 
 should be taken, and announce their decision at the next meeting.
 
 1 920 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 201 
 
 To what extent is international co-operation on the 
 financial problem necessary now ? 
 
 The Hon. R. H. BRAND. 
 
 March yd. 
 Mr. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Messrs. Hartley Withers, Falk, Spring Rice, Dibblee, Keynes, 
 Harold Cox, Sir Felix Schuster, Mr. Acworth, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Mr. Gibbs, Dr. Stamp, Prof. Bowley, Sir Charles Mallet, Professor 
 Foxwell, Mr. Higgs. 
 
 Visitors : Sir William Beveridge, K.C.B., Mr. Dudley Ward, 
 Mr. D. H. Robertson, Mr. E. A. Ridsdale, and Mr. Charles 
 Longman. 
 
 The Treasurer, before making his annual financial statement, 
 called the attention of members to the Committee's proposals 
 for amending the rules of election. He went on to say that 
 the income for the year, including 14 145. interest, was 102 i8s., 
 while the expenditure was 149 45. gd., the credit balance being 
 thus reduced from -57 6s. 6d. to 10 195. o/I. The number of 
 dinners given in 1919 was seven, against eight in 1918, while 
 the cost of each dinner had risen from 17 los. 6d. to 21 55. 
 The attendance was only four less than in 1918, however (181 
 against 185), giving an average attendance of 26 against 23, 
 but 55 guests were entertained, against 43 in 1918 and 40 in 1917. 
 
 To what extent is economic education feasible ? 
 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS. 
 
 March 3 is/. 
 Mr. HARTLEY WITHERS, Chair. 
 
 Sir George Gibb, Mr. Higgs, Prof. Bowley, Messrs. Holland 
 Martin, Spring Rice, Falk, Hichens, Prof. Edgeworth, Sir T. 
 Morison, Messrs. Harold Cox, Acworth, Professor Foxwell, 
 Mr. Stebbing, Sir Bernard Mallet. 
 
 Visitors : Dr. Bonar, Messrs. Roger Gibb, G. D. H. Cole,
 
 2O2 Political Economy Club 1920 
 
 R. H. Hoare, G. Findlay Shirras, Joseph Shaw, K.C., M. Delemer, 
 Messrs. Mark Stebbing and Sidney Webb. 
 
 It was decided to consider the method of election at the next 
 meeting, no guests to be present. 
 
 How far is democratic control in industry desirable and 
 practicable ? Sir GEORGE GIBB. 
 
 May $th. 
 Mr. HUTH JACKSON, Chair. 
 
 Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Sir Alfred Booth, Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Messrs. Herbert Samuel, Hubbard, Acworth, Higgs, Withers, 
 Prof. Foxwell, Sir George Gibb, Messrs. Hirst, Falk, and Spring 
 Rice. 
 
 The Club discussed first the election rules. After Mr. Jackson 
 had stated the dilemma, owing to which the Committee had 
 made the proposals previously circulated to members, it was 
 proposed by Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, and seconded by Sir 
 Bernard Mallet, that " Candidates be proposed and seconded by 
 members and elected by the Committee," which was defeated 
 by 8 votes to 5. 
 
 After some discussion, Mr. Falk proposed, and Mr. Hubbard 
 seconded, that " The postal vote be retained as in Rule 8, but 
 that at the February meeting no more candidates shall be 
 balloted for than there are vacancies, and that the result shall 
 be announced by post to members." The resolution was carried 
 by 8 votes to 5. 
 
 Mr. Jackson proposed, and Mr. Spring Rice seconded, that 
 " The number of black balls to exclude shall be four." The 
 motion was carried by 10 to 4. 
 
 It was also agreed that in the event of a tie under Rule 8, 
 the Committee should decide which candidate be balloted for ; 
 and that no candidate who has been blackballed under Rules 9 
 and 10 as amended should be balloted for again until at least
 
 1920 Minutes, Questions Discussed, Etc. 203 
 
 twelve months have elapsed. It was decided not to fill the 
 vacancy now existing. 
 
 How far has the Political Economy Club changed since 
 1821 ? Mr. HIGGS. 
 
 In the course of the discussion, it was decided that about 
 300 could be spent out of the accumulated funds on the Cen- 
 tenary History of the Club, which should contain a complete list 
 of questions discussed. By 8 votes to 4, it was decided that an 
 asterisk be placed in the minutes henceforth against the names 
 of those who took part in the discussion, but that no record be 
 kept of what was said. The Secretary was instructed to remind 
 the Chairman of each meeting that the time allowed to the 
 opener is 20 minutes, and to each subsequent speaker 10 minutes. 
 
 June 2nd. 
 Mr. HENRY HIGGS,* Chair. 
 
 Mr. Holland-Martin, Prof. Bowley,* Messrs. Withers,* Ac- 
 worth,* Spring Rice,* Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, Sir Hugh Bell,* 
 Sir George Gibb,* Mr. Hubbard,* Sir Bernard Mallet, Prof. 
 Foxwell,* Mr. Hichens,* Mr. Brand, Professor Edgeworth, 
 Mr. Falk.* 
 
 Visitors : Sir Theodore Chambers,* Mr. F. Bonham-Carter, 
 P. J. Pybus, C.B.E., Geoffrey Marks, and Lt.-Col. Franklin 
 Thomasson. 
 
 The minutes of the last meeting were taken as read, and the 
 Secretary instructed to circulate the amended rules of election. 
 
 The Evolution of Capitalism what is the next step ? 
 
 Mr. OSWALD FALK. 
 
 November 
 Mr. O. T. FALK, Chair. 
 
 Prof. Pigou,* Prof. Bowley, Messrs. Hirst,* Hooper, Keynes,* 
 Sir C. Mallet, Sir John Simon, Sir Hugh Bell,* Sir Bernard Mallet, 
 Messrs. Hubbard, Grenfell,* Holland-Martin, Spring Rice,*
 
 204 Political Economy Club 1920 
 
 Withers, Prof. Foxwell, Sir Felix Schuster,* Sir J. C. Stamp, 
 Prof. Edgeworth. 
 
 Guests : Mr. A. W. Kiddy, Sir H. Babington Smith, K.C.B., 
 Mr. Basil Blackett, C.B.,* Messrs. John Hugh Smith, G. Madan, 
 M'Lintock, Dudley Ward, E. J. P. Benn, and Rt. Hon. F. 
 Leverton Harris.* 
 
 On the proposal of Mr. Falk, seconded by Mr. Holland-Martin, 
 the following gentlemen, connected with the Brussels Financial 
 Conference, were invited to attend after dinner, and did attend : 
 
 Mr. W. T. Layton, C.H., M. Strakosch,* M. Avenol,* M. Ter 
 Meulen, and Mr. Loveday. 
 
 What is the meaning of the European Exchange position ? 
 
 Professor PIGOU. 
 
 December isl. 
 Sir GEORGE GIBB,* Chair, 
 
 Messrs. Hichens,* Hubbard, Hooper,* Higgs,* Sir M. Chal- 
 mers,* Professor Foxwell,* Messrs. H. Cox,* Spring Rice,* Sir 
 B. Mallet, Messrs. Holland-Martin, Withers, Sir C. Mallet, Major 
 Darwin, Sir J. Stamp.* 
 
 Visitors : Messrs. McDermot,* D. Milne- Watson,* G. W. 
 Reynolds, T. B. Johnston,* Col. O'Gorman, C.B., Sir Lynden 
 Macassey, K.C.* 
 
 Mr. Higgs called attention to the irregular admission of a 
 number of visitors after dinner at the previous meeting, and 
 urged that this precedent ought not to be followed without an 
 alteration in the rules. Sir B. Mallet and the Secretary having 
 explained what had taken place, Mr. Higgs refrained from 
 moving a formal resolution on the subject. 
 
 On what principles should arbitrators make wages awards ? 
 
 Mr. W. L. HICHENS.
 
 DIARIES 
 
 FROM MR. J. L. MALLET'S DIARIES 
 
 (1823.) The friends of virtue and science have sustained 
 an irreparable loss by the death of Mr. Ricardo, on the 
 nth inst. at his seat at Gatcombe in Gloucestershire. Mr. 
 Ricardo was of a respectable Jewish family long established 
 in Portugal, and formed early in life an attachment to the 
 daughter of a medical man at Hackney. His father who 
 had property disapproved of the connection upon pecuniary 
 grounds, but Ricardo nevertheless married, and his friends 
 who felt warmly for him then, as they have ever done 
 since, gave him their countenance and support, and set 
 him up as a stockbroker, the usual resource of persons 
 who have no capital. Mr. Ricardo's whole property when 
 he married did not exceed 800 ; but his intelligence and 
 strict integrity soon raised him to independence. Living 
 as I do very much with merchants, I have invariably heard 
 him spoken of in terms of the greatest esteem. Mr. Berry, 
 an eminent stockbroker, told a friend of mine that he had 
 never known a man in business so punctual to his word as 
 Ricardo, and that in the case of loans he never in any one 
 instance failed to allot to each individual the share he had 
 promised, an extremely uncommon thing among loan con- 
 tractors. Mr. Tooke tells me that Ricardo's fortune was 
 chiefly made by loans, and particularly the loan of 1815. 
 It was an extremely speculative loan, as the result of it 
 depended upon such events as the battle of Waterloo. 
 When he retired from the Stock Exchange, he had com- 
 paratively a small fortune. He is said to have possessed 
 
 205
 
 206 Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 an extraordinary quickness in perceiving in the turns of 
 the market any accidental difference which might arise 
 between the relative price of different stocks, and to have 
 availed himself of this advantage, so as to realise as much 
 as 200 or 300 in one day, by selling out of one, and buying 
 into another stock or vice versa. He is also said never to 
 have carried his stock transactions to any speculative ex- 
 tent ; but to have always, or generally sold out on the 
 turn of the market, so as to realise a small percentage upon 
 a large sum. He was sometimes a principal and sometimes 
 a party in the loans made during the war, and is supposed 
 to have made very large profits. Whatever may have been 
 the case in these respects, he retired altogether from busi- 
 ness some years ago, with a very large fortune, supposed 
 to amount to half a million. It may appear very extra- 
 ordinary that amid the cares of so busy a life, Mr. Ricardo 
 should have been able to attend to any liberal pursuits, and 
 more especially pursuits of an abstract and speculative 
 nature, requiring intense application of mind. His educa- 
 tion had been of a very commonplace kind, and he had to 
 educate himself and to acquire that stock of knowledge which 
 is indispensable for a man who lives in good society, and 
 more particularly in the society of well-informed persons. 
 But every moment that he could spare from his business 
 was devoted to study and more particularly to that science 
 of which he has in some measure become a second founder, 
 and with which his name will always be associated. " As 
 a political economist," says Mr. M l Culloch, " Mr. Ricardo 
 stood unrivalled by any of his contemporaries ; and if he 
 was inferior to Smith, it is alone in the power of illustra- 
 tion ; for he was superior to him in the talent with which 
 he unravelled the most abstruse and intricate questions, 
 and in the unerring sagacity with which he traced the 
 operation of general principles, and in his clear conception 
 of their remote consequences. After making proper allow- 
 ances for its deficiencies in style and arrangement, the 
 Principles of Political Economy and Taxation may be con- 
 sidered as the most original, profound, and valuable work
 
 1823 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 207 
 
 on that subject which has appeared since the Wealth of 
 Nations." The theory of profits is altogether Mr. Ricardo's, 
 and many other of his disquisitions are extremely original 
 and valuable. His enquiry into the nature of value shows 
 his turn for abstract speculation, even on subjects which 
 do not appear to admit of conclusive and satisfactory results. 
 He subsequently modified some of his opinions on that 
 subject, and also on the subject of machinery. No man 
 was more open to conviction, and more ready to acknow- 
 ledge an error. His great and only object was the discovery 
 of truth ; and he carried into conversation a degree of 
 candour and modesty of manner which were not less remark- 
 able than his extraordinary clearness and facility of eluci- 
 dation. I have often heard him discuss dry and abstract 
 questions of political economy in a manner which captivated 
 the attention and delighted persons who would not have 
 read without tediousness half a dozen pages on the subject. 
 Mr. Ricardo possessed a clear and comprehensive under- 
 standing, and never advanced an opinion which he had not 
 examined, and was not prepared to defend. Until the year 
 1816 he was only known as a man of talents and consider- 
 able research ; but on the question of the resumption of 
 cash payments, he published a pamphlet, which attracted 
 general attention, by which he proposed a scheme of bullion 
 payments which would have secured us the advantage of 
 a paper currency, and at the same time effectually prevented 
 depreciation. This plan was not adopted ; but it was very 
 much discussed : and Mr. Ricardo, who soon afterwards 
 came into Parliament took a considerable share in the 
 proceedings on this important subject, and materially con- 
 tributed to the determination of ministers to resume cash 
 payments. In the course of the discussions which took 
 place in committees of both Houses, he became acquainted 
 with Lord Grenville, to whom he was introduced by Mr. 
 Grenfell, and who was a great admirer of his talents and 
 writings. Mr. Ricardo generally voted with the Whigs, 
 and supported on all occasions the rights and liberties of 
 his fellow-subjects ; but he was thoroughly independent
 
 208 Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 in his opinions, and deserted his political friends whenever 
 he thought them in the wrong ; nor do I believe, notwith- 
 standing what I have heard to the contrary, that his in- 
 fluence was diminished in consequence of the fearlessness 
 with which he expressed opinions at variance with the 
 feeling of the great majority of all parties. He was always 
 heard with attention on subjects of political economy and 
 finance, and although many of his opinions were no doubt 
 very unpalatable to the House, and but ill-calculated for 
 such an audience, his talents, the clearness of his under- 
 standing, his perfect honesty, and his perspicuous and 
 agreeable delivery would always have secured him a great 
 share of attention and respect. This feeling was the more 
 honourable to the country gentlemen, as he was the champion 
 of a free trade in corn, and of a return to the old standard 
 of the currency, two questions which affected them deeply. 
 With regard to his scheme of paying off the national debt 
 in the same manner as the land tax had been redeemed, it 
 was considered as too visionary to excite much jealousy. 
 The word visionary is certainly not applicable to it, but it 
 would have been attended with almost insuperable diffi- 
 culties and perhaps upon the whole it would not have been 
 altogether expedient even if practicable. What was said 
 of Priestley is not altogether inapplicable to Ricardo, that 
 he followed truth, as a man who hawks follows his sport, at 
 full speed, straight forward, looking only upward, and regard- 
 less of the difficulties into which the chase might lead him, 
 which only means that such men take their chance of con- 
 sequences, upon which others lay perhaps too much stress. 
 Ricardo was a bold man ; and he was bold because he 
 reasoned thoroughly with himself, and carefully examined 
 the opinions which he adopted. Whether he made suffi- 
 cient allowances for disturbing causes, and for the pre- 
 ponderating influence which the passions of mankind often 
 acquire over their true interests, may admit of doubt. His 
 knowledge of mankind, and of political society was chiefly 
 acquired in books, and wanted the test of experience ; but 
 although he was a thorough reformer, and an advocate for
 
 1823 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 209 
 
 universal suffrage, and vote by ballot, no man was less of 
 a revolutionist in principle : he was, on the contrary, 
 humane, considerate and just in all his views. He early 
 became an advocate for the principle of utility. James 
 Mill, the author of the History of British India, and several 
 other works, a pupil of Bentham's, and a man of con- 
 siderable acuteness, research and talents, was Ricardo's 
 most intimate friend, and no doubt materially contributed 
 to the formation of many of his opinions. They were 
 probably the two most considerable persons of that school, 
 and have greatly extended the influence of its principles. 
 Ricardo formed many years ago a close intimacy with 
 Malthus ; but as these two distinguished men advanced 
 in the science of political economy, their differences of 
 opinion gradually widened until they became the subject 
 of an open controversy. Ricardo took great pleasure in 
 assembling intelligent men at his table, and in a free and 
 unconstrained conversation on all topics of interest, whether 
 literary, philosophical, or political. Of literature he knew 
 little ; but was tolerably well read in several branches of 
 speculative philosophy. I have met at his house some of 
 the most distinguished men of our day. No one was less 
 forward in asserting his opinions, or less impatient to speak : 
 he never argued for purposes of victory, but always with 
 good nature, simplicity and a most winning playfulness of 
 manner. 
 
 Surrounded by a very large family, for he had, I believe, 
 ten children, and as many brothers and sisters, he seemed 
 the companion and friend of them all. He was exemplary, 
 as well as affectionate and indulgent, in all the private 
 relations of life. His stature was somewhat under the 
 common size, but well proportioned and active ; his counte- 
 nance open ; and his features good, although with a slight 
 Jewish cast ; his eye had a soft, beaming, intelligent and, 
 at the same time, thoughtful expression, which is very 
 successfully portrayed in Philips' picture. He was not a 
 robust man, but of a sound constitution ; and his habits 
 were so temperate, that he would probably have lived to
 
 2io Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 an advanced age, if he had not been prematurely cut off 
 by an inflammatory complaint in the head in his 5ist year. 
 His sufferings were excessive, and he appears to have been 
 fully sensible of his danger, and at no time anxious for life. 
 So good a man could not but be prepared for whatever God 
 might ordain. Someone of his family having used before 
 him some anxious expressions, " Do not," he replied, " be 
 too anxious on this subject. At what better time could I 
 leave the world, surrounded as I am by all those I love, 
 and leaving some little fame behind me? " He had been 
 engaged for some time before his death in the essay on the 
 proper constitution of a national bank. Mr. Ricardo had 
 large landed property : an estate of 5000 or 6000 acres at 
 Gatcombe near Minchin Hampton in Gloucestershire, where 
 he resided in summer ; and another also of several thousand 
 acres not far from Ross in Herefordshire, where his eldest 
 son resided. When I was in Gloucestershire in September 
 1817 on a visit to a mutual friend, Mr. Smith of Easton 
 Grey, he came there for a couple of days, and drove me to 
 his own place, and also to Wooton under Edge, where one of 
 his daughters, Mrs. Austen, resided. I remember his then 
 saying that he did not conceive how any man who could 
 get his 3^ per cent, by land could leave his money in the 
 funds ; which shows the distrust great dealers in public 
 stocks entertain of that sort of property : and yet the 3 per 
 cents, which were then at 61 are now at 83. We went 
 together with our friend Mr. Smith, to a meeting of country 
 gentlemen held at Tetbury for the purpose of establishing 
 a savings bank, and this leads me to mention the occasion 
 on which I first became acquainted with Mr. Ricardo. In 
 the early part of 1817, I had been engaged with William 
 Allen, a Quaker, well known for his philosophical talents 
 and philanthropy ; Mr. William Vaughan, a merchant, and 
 excellent man, chairman of the Royal Exchange Insurance 
 Office ; and Mr. J. Farley Foster, a benevolent and clever 
 man (son of old John Foster) in forming a scheme for the 
 establishment of a Savings Bank in the city of London. 
 We met several times at Mr. Vaughan's in Mincing Lane,
 
 1 82 3 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 211 
 
 and having completed our plan, chiefly upon the model of 
 Mr. Duncan's, the original projector of these useful institu- 
 tions, we called a public meeting at the Royal Exchange 
 rooms, at which Sir Thomas Baring took the chair at my 
 request. The meeting was well attended, and we stated 
 our plans, by which the money deposited in the bank was 
 to be invested in the public Stocks, and the amount of the 
 deposits returned to the depositors whenever called for with 
 interest at 4 per cent. When the resolutions came to be 
 put, a gentleman whom I did not know, and who proved to 
 be Mr. Ricardo, expressed his entire approbation of the object 
 for which we had met, but conceived that the Directors of 
 the bank should only engage to return to the depositors 
 the value of the Stock which had been purchased with their 
 rAoney, because if any considerable fall in the Stocks should 
 tafce place, and a great run came at the same time upon the 
 bank, the institution would either be obliged to fail in its 
 engagements or the Trustees to make good the deficiency. 
 The objection was obvious and insuperable, and notwith- 
 standing the disadvantages attending this scheme, which 
 held out to the depositors a temptation to gamble in the 
 stocks, without having to pay any brokerage, it was neces- 
 sarily adopted for a time. Applications were immediately 
 made to Government, who undertook to take the money of 
 the Savings Bank at a fixed interest with certain limitations. 
 The Bank was soon afterwards established, and led to the 
 formation of several others in London. The amount of 
 the deposits now exceeds 200,000. To return to the meet- 
 ing at Tetbury, the Duke of Beaufort was in the chair, and 
 I was much pleased with the intelligence and attention of 
 the persons present (among whom was Lord Ducie), and by 
 the marked deference and respect shewn to Mr. Ricardo, 
 whom they all knew as a neighbour, and who was so good 
 as to introduce me to them, as one of the founders of the 
 London Savings Banks. Since that time I have always 
 kept up a friendly intercourse with Mr. Ricardo. We 
 sometimes conversed on his favourite topics, and although 
 a very humble pupil, it accidentally happened at a dinner
 
 212 Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 at his house three years ago, at which Mr. Grenfell, Mr. 
 Tooke, and other persons were present, that in consequence 
 of an objection which then occurred to me as to the prevail- 
 ing opinions on the subject of the unmixed benefit resulting 
 from the substitution of machinery for human labour, Mr. 
 Ricardo was afterwards led (although he then differed from 
 me) to reconsider the subject and to write the additional 
 chapter on machinery in his 3rd edition. This he told me 
 himself in the kindest and most ingenuous manner. A 
 club was afterwards formed in the year 1821, of political 
 economists, and persons fond of that science, of which Mr. 
 Ricardo was the chief light and ornament, where his loss 
 will be very deeply felt. He very seldom missed our 
 monthly meetings, and whenever he was detained in the 
 House of Commons, it was a subject of general regret, and 
 the day passed off less cheerfully, and with less confidence 
 in the result of our discussions. On most occasions Ricardo 
 and Mill led on one side, and Malthus and Cazenove on 
 the other, Torrens and Tooke occasionally differing with 
 both, and Prinsep being a sort of disturbing force. This 
 latter gentleman brings forcibly to my mind Ricardo's 
 equanimity of temper, and undisturbed good humour, for 
 although Prinsep is a clever m,an, his captiousness and bad 
 manner, and constant habit of interrupting the persons 
 who are speaking, only drew one rebuke from Mr. Ricardo 
 in the course of two whole winters. 
 
 I fear that Mr. Ricardo's health was injured by his in- 
 variable attendance in the House of Commons, combining, 
 as he did, this laborious duty with his philosophical pursuits. 
 I doubt also whether his parliamentary career contributed 
 to his happiness, as much as it did to his reputation : for 
 when I alluded to any useful and sensible remarks he had 
 made in the House, he often observed that he had no sort 
 of influence there, and that few people were less attended 
 to. It is said that his voice, although sweet and pleasing, 
 was pitched extremely high, and his distinct articulation 
 gave him an advantage in the House of Commons by fixing 
 attention, which is not the case with monotonous tones.
 
 1823 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 213 
 
 There are two very good articles on Mr. Ricardo in the 
 Morning Chronicle of the I3th and 23rd instant. The first 
 by Mill, the other by MCulloch : the two most distinguished 
 commentators on his works. Although M c Culloch corre- 
 sponded with Ricardo, and had written several valuable 
 articles in the Edinburgh Review in support of his opinions, 
 he had never seen him till this summer, when he came to 
 London chiefly for that purpose. 
 
 I have already mentioned the pleasure with which I 
 observed in my visit to Gloucestershire in 1817, the respect 
 entertained for Mr. Ricardo by his country neighbours and 
 the gentlemen of the County ; but I am sorry to say, that 
 an illiberal political feeling was subsequently generated by 
 his exertions in the House, in favour of financial and 
 political reform, and more particularly against all criminal 
 proceedings for matters of opinion and works of religious 
 controversy. This feeling grew so strong that notwith- 
 standing his station in the County, his large landed property, 
 his endeavours to promote industry and true charity in his 
 neighbourhood, and the general esteem in which he was 
 held, the Duke of Beaufort declined three years ago placing 
 him in the Commission of the Peace for the county. And 
 yet I believe that several members of the administration 
 felt on many occasions the value of his disinterested and 
 enlightened support ; but his habitual co-operation with 
 Hume, his steadiness in voting upon all questions involving 
 the liberty of the subject and economical reform, and above 
 all, his speeches on the confinement of Carlisle and his family 
 for blasphemous publications, marred all his usefulness in 
 their eyes. Hume and Ricardo had in the highest degree 
 the merit of consistency ; and much to their honour they 
 resisted all attempts at cheating the public creditor, when 
 almost every person with whom they co-operated on other 
 subjects was ready to plunder the fund holder. 
 
 Mr. Ricardo has left to his eldest son the estates in 
 Herefordshire and Worcestershire, valued at 6000 a year : 
 to his second son his estate at Gatcombe and altogether 
 5000 a year : to his third son 5000 a year : to his widow
 
 214 Political Economy Club 1823 
 
 4000 a year for her life, and to his four daughters 22,000 
 each. 
 
 I have letters from Alexander Baring, Smythe of Cam- 
 bridge, Warburton and Wishaw, all expressing the greatest 
 regret for the loss of this virtuous and able man, and Mr. 
 Wickham, who was at Dropmore lately, says that Lord 
 Grenville spoke of him in terms of the greatest respect, 
 and observed that he thought he could not have so sincerely 
 lamented the loss of a man from whom he differed so widely 
 on many important subjects. His unassuming and amiable 
 manners, had made a great impression both on Lord and 
 Lady Grenville. 
 
 May 6th, 1830. We had a great Meeting of the Political 
 Economy Club to-day, besides the usual champions 
 M^ulloch, Malthus, Tooke, Senior and others we had 
 Lord Althorp, Sir H. Parnell, Wilmot Horton, Bingham 
 Baring, Whitmore, Warburton, Blake, Dr. Whateley of 
 Oxford, and several strangers. The question was a strange 
 one, and yet coming from one of our most sensible men 
 Tooke. " Whether the extinction of our National Debt 
 if it was easily practicable, would be desirable." The 
 object of Tooke was to show the exaggeration and fallacy 
 attending many of the reasonings on the National Debt 
 the considering it as an unbearable burthen, as an unmixed 
 evil, and as so much wealth withdrawn from circulation. 
 He shewed that it was in a great measure a question of 
 distribution ; that although the extinction of the debt 
 might restore masses of wealth to more productive channels, 
 it would leave the present amount of national wealth the 
 same as before ; and that the facility it afforded for secure 
 investments was of great benefit. But he very much under- 
 rated the disadvantages of such a burthen on the industry 
 of the country, of a large amount of taxation which bears 
 more or less on production ; lessened profits impeded com- 
 petition, which places us at every unfavourable turn in 
 national affairs, on the eve of a breach of faith. This was
 
 1830 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 215 
 
 shewn by M c Culloch, Coulson, Senior and Sir H. Parnell, 
 but none of them seemed to me to consider sufficiently 
 that these annuities on the rental and industry of the country 
 were in one respect far different from common annuities 
 and mortgages, to which they were assimilated by them 
 namely, that the payment of them was compulsory, and 
 payable in respect of obligations of which the propriety 
 was not universally acknowledged, like those under which 
 is a man to pay his own debts. Opinion is after all an 
 important consideration in all such questions ; and it is 
 taking but a narrow view of them to look at them merely 
 as questions of distribution of wealth. 
 
 May 28th. My Political Economy Club yesterday : a 
 large meeting. I happened to be placed in the Chair, and 
 Dr. Chalmers being seated next to me as our most distin- 
 guished guest, I had some conversation with him, and was 
 much pleased with his good sense, good feelings and sim- 
 plicity of manners. He has, generally speaking, very sound 
 opinions, and his only great error, as it appears to me, is 
 to suppose that much can be done for the people and for 
 the cause of religion and morality by the means he has 
 described in his Civic Economy, and which he pursued so 
 successfully at Glasgow. That much might be done by 
 such steady and systematic exertions, guided by superior 
 knowledge and intelligence, of which he has left us so 
 remarkable an example, there cannot be a doubt. But 
 where are we to find such men as Dr. Chalmers ? It is the 
 old story if every man was to do his best in his station, 
 we should have but little need of Government. The first 
 question discussed was, whether tythes have any effect on 
 the production of corn, and upon its price to the consumer : 
 or more properly speaking, whether the land which is not 
 cultivated because it is not productive enough to yield the 
 usual profits of capital, and pay tythes, might be cultivated 
 if there were no tythes ; whether the land that pays rents 
 and tythes would have to pay a greater rent if it did not 
 pay tythes, so that what is now paid to the Clergy would be
 
 2i6 Political Economy Club 1830 
 
 paid to the Landlord. I do not think it would be so as to 
 the land which just returns the profits of capital and no 
 more. In the year 1800 there were 29 millions of acres 
 paying rent, which paid tythes also, and about 9 millions 
 also paying rent and which was not tytheable : there were 
 also some millions of acres of land yielding neither rent nor 
 tythes : so that about half the land paid no tythes, which 
 being the case, the abolition of tythes would not make a 
 difference of 10, but only of 5 per cent, on the price of com,* 
 if it be admitted, which it is not, that a part of it would 
 not go to increase the rents. Sir Henry Parnell said that 
 in Ireland, in all those places where a composition for tythe 
 has taken place, the progress of tillage is quite uniform and 
 remarkable ; and the increased demand for lime, for pur- 
 poses of manure, corroborates the fact. Ireland being an 
 exporting country, as observed by Mr. Mill, the stimulus is 
 the greater. If long leases of tythes were granted, the 
 effect would be the same. In England compositions for 
 tythes have long been general. 
 
 Dr. Chalmers spoke. He thought that argument falla- 
 cious and delusive, that went to represent the conditions 
 of the people as depressed and deteriorated by the system 
 of tythes. A temporary benefit would no doubt ensue from 
 the abolition of tythes : corn would for a time be lowered 
 in price and the people would for a time be in a better 
 condition, but unless they acquired a greater regard for 
 consequences, a greater desire of improving their condition 
 they now possess ; unless the moral checks acquired greater 
 influence, the population would in a very short time grow 
 to the means of subsistence, fresh and inferior soils must 
 be taken into cultivation, and the landlords would receive 
 in the shape of rent all that was formerly paid to the clergy. 
 Dr. Chalmers therefore repudiated the representing the 
 subsistence of a large and respectable class of Public Func- 
 tionaries as taken from the comforts and earnings of the 
 people, when it is in fact taken from the superfluities and 
 
 * This is not correct, because the tythe is not levied on the 
 pasture but only on the corn land.
 
 1830 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 217 
 
 luxury of landlords. Dr. Chalmers spoke with great anima- 
 tion, something of an eager, vehement manner, at times 
 almost eloquent and yet chastened, a great power of 
 expression, and a sort of pathetic earnestness which must 
 be exceedingly striking in the pulpit. He reminded me 
 forcibly both in his manner and expression of countenance 
 of old Portalis, the celebrated French lawyer and orator, 
 and both of them, when speaking, have a striking resem- 
 blance to some ancient busts I have seen of Greek orators. 
 Dr. Chalmers well knew he was addressing men, many of 
 whom had but little regard for religious considerations and 
 were of the French school of economical Philosophy ; and 
 his opinions on this subject were entitled to the greater 
 weight, as he has constantly raised his voice against plurali- 
 ties in the assembly of Scotland, and lately refused a living 
 of 700 a year, which he might have held with the Chair 
 of Theology of Edinburgh, which is only worth 400. I 
 took leave of him much gratified by having had this oppor- 
 tunity of seeing him, and with feelings of great respect for 
 his character and opinions. 
 
 June 25th. Dined yesterday at the Political Economy 
 Club. The American Minister, Mr. Maclaine, a very sensible 
 man, and Dr. MacVickar, Professor of Economy at the College 
 of Columbia, were among the guests. The discussions of 
 the Club are a sort of type of the sort of discussions which 
 now take up so much of the time of the House of Commons 
 and the French Chambers ; turning upon economical and 
 partly political questions, upon which differences of opinion 
 among men nearly on a par, in point of talent and informa- 
 tion, are quite endless, and no satisfactory conclusions ever 
 take place. I do not apprehend, if we were in the habit 
 of voting aye or no on the questions proposed, that there 
 would have been half a dozen occasions, since the establish- 
 ment of the Club, 6 years ago, in which anything like 
 unanimity would have prevailed. This is all very well 
 among speculative men, but these speculative men have 
 now got to high places and have great influence in public
 
 218 Political Economy Club 1830 
 
 affairs ; hence it is that all questions of government and 
 administration are afloat and men's minds quite unsettled. 
 Decision and steadiness, even in a doubtful line of conduct, 
 are indispensable in practical life. 
 
 It is singular enough considering the dogmatism of most 
 writers on Political Economy, who are certainly not wanting 
 in positive conclusions, that most subjects belonging to that 
 science are so involved in doubt and difficulty, that the 
 moment you quit the great road and general principles, you 
 find yourself in crooked lanes, a cut de sac. At our Club, 
 we early found it necessary to cease coming to any con- 
 clusions, as to the subjects under discussion ; and even with 
 regard to the definition of terms, some of which were settled 
 after a good deal of difficulty and discussion, there was 
 anything but unanimity among the more learned of us. 
 
 3rd December. Yesterday was the first meeting for the 
 season of our Political Economy Club. We had Messrs. 
 Palmer, Whitmore, Senior, Tooke, Torrens, M^ulloch, 
 Norman, Lefevre, Lyall, and Blanco White as a visitor. 
 We were rather too full of politics, the destruction of 
 machinery and so forth : the general opinion seems to be 
 that if these disorders lasted there must either be an increase 
 of military force or some sort of National Guard. The 
 making the Tythe-holders pay for the damage and the 
 increase of wages a great injustice, for Tythes are as much 
 a charge on the land as Poor Rates ; and every man buys 
 his estate with these charges. But the Landlord would 
 much rather that the Farmer should go to the Parson 
 than to the Rent roll. There will be a great deal of com- 
 mutation and ultimately some great arrangement, if con- 
 vulsions can be warded off by such means. Several extra- 
 ordinary instances of intimidation and threats by means 
 of letters signed Swing were mentioned. Mr. Tooke had a 
 copy of a letter to the Commanding Officer of the East 
 India House Volunteers stating that if a man of them lived 
 out of London the houses of the aristocracy in the country 
 would be burnt down.
 
 1830 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 219 
 
 The question for the evening was Mr. Tooke's. " Whether 
 the doctrine in Hume's Essay on Money in favour of 
 depreciation is well founded ? " He thought not : consider- 
 ing that whatever was gained on the one hand, or by one 
 person, in the course of the depreciation was lost by another ; 
 that it was merely a question of distribution between debtor 
 and creditor. He also thinks that the middle and lower 
 classes, and all persons living on wages or fixed incomes of 
 any sort, have been much benefited by the rise in the value 
 of money. Torrens, on the contrary, looks chiefly to profits 
 as the great means of increasing general wealth, and as 
 wages are fixed from time to time (distant and long periods), 
 by Committees of the several trades, and do not rise, perhaps 
 for a long time after the value of money has fallen, the 
 Capitalist pays in fact for long periods, lower real wages, 
 and is a great gainer. All employers of Capital borrowed 
 are likewise benefited paying a less interest. There is a 
 greater stimulus to production. Norman considered the 
 very circumstance mentioned by Torrens the lowering of 
 wages and deteriorated condition of the labourer as a reason 
 for deprecating such a course of affairs, but Tooke did not 
 think that wages lagged so much as Torrens would make 
 it out, for they had increased (agricultural wages) 90 per 
 cent, from 1795 to 1813, when they were at the highest 
 2s. 6d. In old and wealthy countries, such as England 
 and Flanders, there existed a great mass of individuals 
 living on their incomes, without exercising any industry, 
 and this class was greatly injured by the depreciation of 
 money. M c Culloch in his sarcastic and cynical manner 
 derided Mr. Tooke's concern for old gentlemen and ladies, 
 dowagers, spinsters and landholders. He cared not what 
 became of them, and whether they were driven from the 
 parlour to the garret, provided the producers the produc- 
 tive and industrious classes were benefited, which he had 
 no doubt they were by a gradual depreciation in the value 
 of money. But, after all, if happiness is the object, why 
 should any considerable class of society be driven from 
 their stations and exposed to the inconvenience and pain
 
 22O Political Economy Club 1830 
 
 of reduced circumstances with a view to the enriching other 
 classes who in their turn are to be pulled down by the same 
 process. All this seemed very artificial and arbitrary, and 
 I should also say very unphilosophical. 
 
 January 13th, 1831. Yesterday was the day of meeting 
 of my Political Economy Club. We ballotted before dinner 
 for a Member in lieu of Cazenove : Joseph Hume and Mr. 
 Blake were the candidates, and the latter was elected. 
 Hume is not liked. Blake is a clever man who has written 
 two very good pamphlets on the currency. He is a man of 
 fortune, education, and general talents, with agreeable 
 manners. We had a large meeting : Torrens, Tooke, 
 Norman, M c Culloch, Senior, Dr. Whately, Parnell, Wilmot 
 Norton, Coulson, Pennington and others. I was in the 
 Chair, and sat next Dr. Whately and Sir Henry Parnell. 
 Dr. Whately is Professor of Political Economy at Oxford ; 
 a true college and a true Oriel man ; with great stores of 
 knowledge, an active and enquiring mind and a consider- 
 able writer ; but bold, pugnacious, and as great a glutton 
 as ever graced a college Hall. I trust that his digestive 
 powers are as unbounded as his appetite ; less restraint 
 of that sort I never saw ; but it is true that I do not often 
 come in the way of these monkish gastronomes. Sir Henry 
 Parnell, Mr. Tooke, and Norman mentioned having twice 
 dined lately at Lord Althorp's, who has the good sense to 
 ask men of talent and practical information to his house, 
 and to put them on the discussion of subjects that they 
 understand ; so that, without committing himself or the 
 Government, he obtains valuable information and assist- 
 ance with a view to measures of commerce and finance. 
 [If one is to judge by his financial measures, he does not 
 seem to have gained much by his intercourse with Econo- 
 mists !] The subject of the expiration of the Bank Charter 
 and of the principles by which Government ought to be 
 guided with regard to Public Boards was discussed at one 
 of these Meetings, and Tooke told me that they had quite 
 satisfied the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the principles
 
 1831 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 221 
 
 of Free Trade could not be safely applied to Banking ; 
 that some limitations and some checks were absolutely 
 necessary for the Public Security ; and that Sir Henry 
 Parnell, who was of a contrary opinion, was left in a very 
 small minority. Sir Henry Parnell said he had dined the 
 other day at Lord Althorp's with Hume and Warburton, 
 and that they had had a long and warm discussion on the 
 subject of retrenchment. This is very sensible of Lord 
 Althorp. The first question for discussion was as to the 
 causes of the present discontent and distress in the agricul- 
 tural districts, and I think that we all agreed that there 
 existed no peculiar -or pressing distress among the agricul- 
 tural labourers ; that in the North and in Scotland, the 
 condition of the agricultural labourers was decidedly im- 
 proved by the alteration in the value of the currency and 
 other circumstances ; and that in the South the disturb- 
 ances had not been occasioned by any need or pressing 
 distress, but had originated in political excitation. The 
 condition of the labourer in that part of the country is 
 generally low ; partly from over-population, the bad adminis- 
 tration of the poor laws, and the distress of the Farmers 
 whose rents, poor rates, and tithes were more advanced 
 in those counties during the War than in the North, and 
 have not experienced a reduction proportionate to the rise 
 in the value of the currency. It was also agreed that both 
 Magistrates and Farmers had had much to do with the 
 disturbances, the Magistrates by their ignorance and pre- 
 judices against machinery, and the Farmers by their not 
 much caring what consequences might ensue from the riots 
 provided they got Rent, Tythes and Taxes reduced. Sir 
 Henry Parnell, who spent a fortnight lately in Kent, the 
 district first disturbed, and saw there many Country gentle- 
 men and Magistrates, said that their ignorance and prejudices 
 on subjects of population, wages, Tythes, Free Trade and 
 Taxes, exceeded all belief and that he could not make any 
 impression on them ; and Mr. Philips, the Under Secretary 
 of State for the Home Department, told Whishaw yesterday 
 that the correspondence of his Department with Magistrates
 
 222 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 during the disturbance shewed a profound ignorance of the 
 causes of the distress, and of the proper remedies. Dr. 
 Whately quoted some passages from a pamphlet on this 
 subject, lately published by the Bishop of Bath and Wells, 
 shewing a most incredible ignorance of the very first prin- 
 ciples of Economy. The concurrence I have mentioned as 
 to the great exaggerations which prevail and are indus- 
 triously disseminated on the subject of agricultural distress, 
 is the more remarkable as there are all shades of political 
 opinion among the Members of the Club, several of whom 
 are radical reformers. Torrens, whose question it was that 
 was discussed, observed with reference to the favourable 
 view taken of late years of the poor laws, that they had 
 been the chief cause of the present state of feeling between 
 the Proprietors and labourers ; and of the sort of hostility 
 that existed between rich and poor, the effect of constant 
 interference. With regard to Tythes, it was considered 
 that the only injurious effect of them was that they gave 
 the Clergy a tenth of the gross produce ; but that the giving 
 them a tenth of the net produce or rent would remove all 
 difficulty. For many years past the clergy have on all 
 occasions of enclosure Bills had a part of the enclosed Lands 
 assigned to them as Glebe, so that the injurious effect 
 ascribed to Tythes of restraining the cultivation of new land, 
 has not in these instances been felt. Torrens concluded his 
 statement by giving it as his opinion that emigration and 
 a systematic removal of surplus population in those dis- 
 tricts where the means of employment fell far short of the 
 numbers to be employed, and the education of the People, 
 were the only remedies applicable to the present exigency. 
 There were some differences of opinion as to the relief that 
 might be expected from a remission of Taxes or a change 
 in the objects of Taxation. Torrens and Tooke and M c Cul- 
 loch thought that the only remission of Taxes that would 
 be beneficial to the labourer would be the remission of 
 direct Taxes by which he was affected, such as the Coal 
 Tax in the Southern Countries a most impolitic and in- 
 jurious tax the Candle, and Soap Taxes : and that with
 
 1831 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 223 
 
 regard to a change of Taxation, such as the substitution of 
 a Property Tax for other Taxes, it would be a measure 
 of very doubtful expediency, because under any system of 
 well understood taxation, taxes are to be raised from the 
 aggregate revenue of the Country ; and whether you take 
 the same portion of revenue in one shape or in another, 
 the funds for the employment of labour and the persons to 
 be employed will remain in the same relative state. Sir 
 Henry Parnell and Norman, however, thought otherwise, 
 and were of opinion that Taxes bearing less on productive 
 industry would be less burdensome. Some taxes were 
 universally condemned, such as the Tax on sea-borne coals, 
 the Tax on printed linens, which is first raised on the 
 Manufacturer and afterwards in a great measure paid back 
 in the shape of drawbacks. Tooke considered Tea as a 
 perfect object of Taxation, because it would hardly be 
 considered as a necessary of life, and the quantity required 
 by each individual is so small. He mentioned incidentally, 
 that the discoverers of the American Mines and the con- 
 sequent depreciation in the value of the precious metals 
 which followed it, was attended by a general deterioration 
 of the state and condition of the labouring classes, and yet 
 this is the period that Cobbett refers to as the Golden Age ; 
 where every labourer had a meal of beef and mutton. 
 
 The only other subject of discussion we had was as to 
 the progress made in the Science of Political Economy 
 since the publication of Ricardo's work, and whether the 
 principles of that work were still held in the same estima- 
 tion. The first part of the Enquiry was not gone into, but 
 Torrens held that all the great principles of Ricardo's work 
 had been successively abandoned, and that his theories of 
 Value, Rent and Profits were now generally acknowledged 
 to have been erroneous. As to value the dissertation on 
 the Measure of value published in 1825 by Mr. Baillie of 
 Leeds has settled that question. As Thompson had shown 
 that Rent was not the effect of differences in the relative 
 productiveness of soils, but the effect of demand and price, 
 and as to profits, it is clear that the part that goes to
 
 224 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 replacing the capital employed, which Mr. Ricardo had 
 omitted to take into the account, was decisive of the un- 
 soundness of his views. Tooke and M c Culloch admitted 
 the truth of the last observation, and Tooke also thought 
 that Ricardo was wrong in his Theory of Value, but they 
 both considered that Rent was in point of fact the effect 
 of differences in the productiveness of soils, because inferior 
 soils were not bought into cultivation until the demand for 
 food and the increased price enabled the cultivator to 
 bring those soils into culture with a fair profit. M c Culloch 
 stood up vigorously for Value as well as Rent, and paid 
 very high compliments to Ricardo, whom he still considered 
 as right in most points, and at all events as having done the 
 greatest service to the science, his methodical and scientific 
 way of treating it, so that even where he was mistaken, his 
 errors could be detected by a subsequent and more correct 
 analysis. He was not an inventor, and no more was Bacon ; 
 and their merits in M c Culloch's opinion had very much 
 the same character. This seemed to be generally assented 
 to, and yet when it is considered that Political Economy 
 is chiefly a practical science, or at least that its principles 
 ought to be so accessible and capable of communication 
 as to be of constant and habitual application, it is a great 
 drawback on Ricardo's work that it is almost a sealed Book 
 to all but men capable of pursuing abstract reasoning by 
 a strict and mathematical analysis ; and this, after all, with 
 anything but certainty of arriving at the truth. The more 
 I see and read, the more I am convinced that, with a 
 few exceptions, Political Economy can only be considered 
 as a science of tendencies. Senior brought a Swedish Review 
 in which one of his last lectures is translated, and also some 
 Paper of Bentham's. They call our science Stadt Economy, 
 which is a better title than Political Economy. 
 
 April 15th. My Political Economy Club. All the great 
 guns, save Mill, who never attends ; he is not enough of 
 an oracle among us, and does not find among his equals in 
 intellect, so far as that science is concerned, Torrens,
 
 1831 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 225 
 
 Malthus, M c Culloch, Tooke, that deference, not to say 
 adulation, which is paid him by young Utilitarians and 
 Aristocratical worshippers of Talent. The whole discussion 
 of the day turned on the merits of Ricardo ; and to me was 
 very abstract and tedious. It was generally admitted that 
 Ricardo is a bad and obscure writer, using the same terms 
 in different senses ; but that his principles are in the main 
 right. Neither his Theories of value, nor his Theories of 
 Rent and profits are correct, according to the very terms 
 of his propositions ; but they are right in principle. He 
 is one of the first who has treated the subject of Taxation, 
 and he always reasons out his propositions, whether true or 
 false, with great logical precision and to their utmost con- 
 sequences ; but without sufficient regard to the many 
 modifications which are invariably found to arise in the 
 progress of Society. One of the errors of Ricardo seems to 
 have been to have followed up Malthus' principles of popula- 
 tion to unwarrantable conclusions. For, in the first place 
 it is clear from the progress of social improvement and the 
 bettering of the condition of the people in the greater part 
 of the civilised world, that Capital, or the means of Employ- 
 ment the fund for labour increases in a greater ratio than 
 population ; that men generally reproduce more than they 
 consume, and the interest of the capital besides, which 
 surplus goes to increase the fund for labour. Then he looks 
 forward from the gradual demand for food and the use of 
 land, to the gradual lowering of wages and profits till nothing 
 remains but rent to the Landlords. But long before that, 
 modification would take place in the state of society which 
 would make such conclusions all wrong. First of all, it is 
 contended that the interest of the Landlords does in fact 
 coincide with those of the other classes ; and then we see 
 that in Ireland, where rent is absorbing everything, in con- 
 sequence of the immense competition for land, a system of 
 Poor Laws is likely soon to equalise the division. 
 
 May 6th. Attended my Political Economy Club a small 
 and agreeable party. M c Culloch proposed that Members
 
 226 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 who did not attend once in the whole year should be ex- 
 pelled, but I was quite against it ; for independently of the 
 five guineas a year which absentees pay towards our ex- 
 penses, large meetings are very seldom agreeable and the 
 ablest men, such as Tooke, Torrens, Senior, MTulloch, 
 Malthus almost always attend. Some things struck me this 
 evening : ist. The decided opinion which appeared to pre- 
 vail that taxation and even heavy taxation, under such 
 circumstances as those of the French War, very much 
 tended to stimulate industry, and had in fact led to a much 
 greater amount of production and a much greater amount 
 of savings and accumulation, than would otherwise have 
 been the case. We had at the same time a monopoly of 
 Foreign Trade. M c Culloch said in so many words, that not 
 a farthing more would have been accumulated ; that there 
 could not be a farthing more capital in the Country if the 
 National Debt had not been incurred ; which seems to be 
 generally assented to. And yet it seems a startling pro- 
 position. At all events, as I ventured to observe, it could 
 not be for the interest of the Country that such masses of 
 capital should have been for so many years forced into 
 particular channels of investment. 2nd. Great differences 
 of opinion seemed to prevail as to the manner in which 
 taxation, or the removal of taxation, affected the labourer : 
 What effect they had in raising or lowering the real wages 
 of labour. Senior held that the real wages of labour always 
 depended on the value of the exchangeable produce of such 
 labour. 3rd. The extreme difficulty of threading the laby- 
 rinths of the science was exemplified by an observation of Mr. 
 Pennington, that the persons who had spoken on the subject 
 of wages (and these persons are some of the first economists 
 of the day) and most writers on the subject, indiscriminately 
 employed the expression fall and rise of wages in 6 different 
 senses, which ought all to be kept distinct from each other ; as 
 money wages but money estimated in what ? And so forth. 
 
 June 3rd, 1831. At my Club. Resignation of Mr. 
 Basevi, who was originally introduced by Mr. Ricardo ;
 
 1831 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 227 
 
 but although a sensible well informed man, never took any 
 share in our discussions. Senior asked me to propose John 
 Romilly, which I had great pleasure in doing. Mr. Tooke 
 seconded me, Norman proposed Col. Thompson, who has 
 written a clever pamphlet on Rent, and M c Culloch proposed 
 Mr. Hyde Villers, the Secretary of the India Board ; a 
 young man of talents, but whom I would rather not see 
 among us. We resumed an adjourned question of Mr. 
 Lyall's as to the diminished rate of profits since the Peace. 
 No one save Mr. Tooke seemed to have any doubts on the 
 subject. The chief cause assigned was the rate of wages, 
 which in a great number of employments such as Mechanics 
 in large Towns, Taylors, Book Binders, Shoemakers, Paper- 
 makers, Plumbers, Carpenters, Joiners, Masons, and more 
 particularly in all skilled employments, has not fallen in 
 any degree in the same proportion in which the value of 
 money has risen ; so that a much larger share of the produce 
 goes to that class. M c Culloch said that agricultural wages, 
 in those parts of the Country in which the administration 
 of the Poor Laws had not been abused from York, for 
 instance, to Perth he believed that the rate of wages was 
 much the same as during the War. But the question of 
 accumulation does not altogether depend on the rate of 
 profits, and there is no question that accumulation has been 
 going on quite as rapidly, if not more rapidly, than during 
 the War. The improvement of all the North of England 
 is beyond all doubt ; and in proof of it, M c Culloch men- 
 tioned that in 1804, there was no Public Baker at Man- 
 chester no man whose trade was the selling of Wheaten 
 Bread. People who ate wheaten bread made it at home. 
 In Cumberland also, Sir Morton Eden mentions in his works, 
 that in the year 1780 no wheaten flour was consumed 
 there. 
 
 Senior proposed at the close of the day the formation of 
 a society on a larger scale for the improvement and diffusion 
 of Political Economy. Not a Society for discussion or the 
 publication of theoretical or controversial writings, but for 
 collecting facts and observations made in different Countries.
 
 228 Political Economy Club 1831 
 
 This is a legitimate and proper pursuit, which has been too 
 long neglected. 
 
 December. Malthus, who is staying with his sister, Mrs. 
 Bray, at Hampstead, called on me on Friday. He had 
 attended, the week before, the first yearly meeting of our 
 Political Economy Club, and told me that the whole evening 
 was occupied in discussing Torrens' proposed Motion in the 
 House of Commons for the substitution of a Property Tax 
 for the Taxes affecting Industry. This sounds very well ; 
 but it is the merest two-penny trash that can be conceived, 
 and if Torrens was not a seeker of office and popularity, he 
 is too sensible a man to entertain such views of Taxation. 
 That the taxes directly affecting the labourers ought to be 
 repealed may be quite right ; most of them have been 
 repealed ; but to tax capital and accumulation in order to 
 favour industry is a very strange notion, and could not be 
 done without great mischief and injustice. It is, however, 
 all in the line of popular opinions. It would be a great 
 mistake to suppose that such a change would materially 
 benefit the labouring classes ; for their real wages do not 
 depend on taxation, but on demand for labour : on the 
 proportion between the means of employment and the 
 number who want it. In a Country like this, where wages 
 are so low, because the people never think of limiting their 
 numbers, if \ of the outgoings of a labourer's family go to 
 the State in the shape of Taxation, the repeal of such Taxes 
 will not be the means of increasing his wages \ his real 
 wages cannot be increased, and the measure of such wages 
 seldom much varies : they must give him the bare neces- 
 saries of life and can do little more. The people forget that 
 employment arises from accumulations of capital ; and that 
 if you tax Property 20 per cent., there will be so much less 
 accumulation in the hands of capitalists ; and in that pro- 
 portion, and much more, will accumulation be stopped : 
 I say much more, because large savings will be sent abroad, 
 to be invested in Foreign Securities. Torrens stated his 
 views : but he stood almost alone. M c Culloch and Malthus
 
 1831 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 229 
 
 and Tooke and all the persons present were against him, 
 except Norman, who has an old Dream about a single Tax, 
 and that a Property Tax. 
 
 February 3rd 1832. I dined yesterday at my Political 
 Economy Club. We had the Ex-Minister Sir Henry Parnell, 
 who was turned out of his office of Secretary at War last 
 week for voting against his colleagues, and looked a little 
 annoyed ; we had also the Vice President of the Board of 
 Trade, Thomson, Tooke, Torrens, Malthus. M c Culloch, 
 Norman, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Grenfell, Mr. Lyall, Mr. Whitmore. 
 We had a question respecting the Navigation Laws. Mr. 
 Lyall, who is Chairman of the Shipping Committee, and an 
 East India Director, had proposed the question. The 
 Navigation Laws have been so modified by the Act of 1824, 
 that they are very unlike their original of 1650 : but the 
 great majority of the persons who spoke, and Thomson 
 particularly, were clearly of opinion that whatever remains 
 of them ought to be done away with : that they were clearly 
 injurious to the wealth and not necessary to the naval 
 pre-eminence of this Country. Almost all Public Writers, 
 including Sir Josiah Child and Adam Smith, have ascribed 
 the great increase of British Navigation to these Navigation 
 Laws, but M c Culloch and Tooke and Norman thought other- 
 wise : they thought the gradual increase of our shipping 
 was owing to our superior skill and naval advantages. At 
 all events it was admitted on all hands that whether or not 
 these laws were necessary to our naval superiority (and I 
 am inclined to think, with reference to the United States, 
 that they could not be safely repealed) they ought to be 
 brought back to the original of 1650 which left the ship- 
 owner at liberty to buy and build his ships, wherever he 
 pleased, provided they are navigated by British seamen. 
 Some curious facts came out. Thomson, speaking of the 
 absurd provisions introduced in the Bill of 1824, by which 
 no commodities, the produce of Asia, Africa or America, 
 could be imported from Continental Ports, said that a few 
 years ago, there was a difference between the price of Cotton
 
 230 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 at Liverpool and Havre which made it advantageous to the 
 English Manufacturer to get his cotton from the French 
 Ports ; but as it could not be imported from thence and the 
 difference was considerable, large quantities were exported 
 from Havre to the Island of Bermuda, the nearest of our 
 American dependencies, and from thence imported into 
 England. A more flagrant instance of the mischievous 
 absurdity of such artificial regulations could not well be 
 selected. Norman, who has had much to do with the 
 Norway Trade, gave such an account of the decay and 
 deterioration in value of Shipping concerns of Norway as 
 bore no comparison with anything we can complain of here. 
 One Port, which had 200 ships in 1815, had only 40 in 
 1830 : ships that had cost 5 and 6000 sent here to be broken 
 up and sold for 600. But M^ulloch observed that it 
 was not from that quarter that we had to fear a dangerous 
 competition, but from the United States ; and the danger 
 arises, not so much from greater cheapness in building and 
 navigating, although the Taxes on Hemp, Wool and Timber 
 are great grievances to the English Ship Builder, but from 
 the character of the people engaged in it the moral superi- 
 ority of the North American Trader and Seaman, resulting 
 from a better education, greater independence and enter- 
 prise and better habits. The Mates commanding Trading 
 Vessels are generally part owners : they see the cargo 
 shipped ; they see it stowed ; they see it landed, ware- 
 housed, taken care of ; their habits are sober and cleanly : 
 they have a pride in the perfect appointments, trim and 
 speed of their vessels. It was mentioned that at Liverpool 
 the American Packets got 10 passengers for one that went 
 in a British Vessel. They always sail to the hour. We had 
 a stranger, a Mr. Currie, a Birmingham dissenter, who, 
 speaking of the manufacturing population of the place, said 
 that it was of a much better description than at Manchester, 
 inasmuch as a large proportion of it consisted of small 
 Masters and skilled workmen. There are many workmen 
 who have capital enough to carry them on for a week : they 
 purchase their materials, work them up with the assistance
 
 1832 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 231 
 
 of their family, and carry it on the Saturday to the dealer, 
 from whom they receive the value. 
 
 March 2nd. We had a large party yesterday at the 
 Political Economy Club, 22 altogether Sir Henry Parnell, 
 Spring Rice, Blake, Tooke, Torrens, Malthus, M c Culloch, 
 Larpent, Norman, Palmer. I was in the Chair, and two 
 men, visitors, sat by me, both of considerable talents, but 
 very different in point of character : John Mill and Whittle 
 Harvey, the Member for Colchester, brought by Torrens ; 
 in the opinion of many persons, the best speaker in the 
 House, but damaged in character. I talked a good deal 
 with Mill ; we touched on Dumont's Book, and I was 
 struck with the accuracy, variety and extent of his know- 
 ledge on the subject of the French Revolution ; he had read 
 all the great speeches and had formed an opinion of the 
 talents, information and character of every considerable 
 man on that great political scene. He is quite a prodigy 
 of knowledge. Sir Henry Parnell said that he had come 
 away from the house, Ministers having given way on Lord 
 Grosvenor's Motion for a Committee on the Silk Trade, 
 and granted it. I thought they were wrong ; upon which 
 he added with some asperity, " They know nothing of these 
 matters ; Lord Grey has no right opinions on these subjects, 
 besides which I believe he does nothing." Whittle Harvey, 
 then addressing himself to me, asked whether Lord Althorp 
 was not a member of the Club, but added that he feared he 
 was too old to learn much : to which I replied that he at 
 least had the desire to learn, and that since he had been 
 Minister, he had had some of the ablest men among us to 
 talk over Economical Measures, which I thought very sen- 
 sible. Parnell added that Lord Grosvenor had expressed 
 a hope that no economists would be placed on the Committee ; 
 by which these Gentlemen do not mean such men as Sadler 
 and Atwood, and the writers in the Quarterly and Black- 
 wood's Magazine, but men of the school of Adam Smith. The 
 question for the evening related to the propriety of allowing 
 the Bank of England to retain the monopoly of London :
 
 232 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 it was Parnell's, who had brought it forward several times 
 in various shapes, and who with his usual pertinacity of 
 opinion, remains unconvinced by argument, and would 
 carry the principles of Free Trade into the issue of Paper 
 Money. Last night he stood quite alone, which I hope will 
 discourage him from again starting the question. No one 
 thought that the principles of Free Trade had any proper 
 reference to and could be usefully applied to the issuing of 
 Paper Money, which is after all coining Money without any 
 definite standard of value. I called on M c Culloch, who 
 wrote a pamphlet on the Bank of England some time ago, 
 for which he has, in all probability, been well paid, to speak 
 after Sir Henry Parnell ; which he did after his usual pre- 
 face of undertone grunting ; but he did not shine, and was 
 not so clear-headed as usual. Tooke placed the question 
 in its true light, and was by far the most distinct and sen- 
 sible. Torrens was for a Government Bank, and talked of 
 these enlightened times and so forth ; upon which I asked 
 him whether we lived in days of darkness in 1809 when 
 Vansittart's propositions as to a Bank note and a guinea 
 being of equal values passed the House of Commons : the 
 days of Huskisson and Ricardo and Horner. The fact is, 
 that when passions or State necessities arise, all principles 
 are and will always be disregarded. Palmer, the Governor 
 of the Bank of England, explained that the great superiority 
 and usefulness of that establishment over all minor com- 
 panies arose from this circumstance ; that the amount 
 both of their capital and circulation enables them to keep 
 a very large reserve in cash, and to sustain a considerable 
 sum without risk and without withdrawing their credits ; 
 which could not be the case, if there were several smaller 
 Banks. Witness the Banks of Scotland, so much lauded. 
 It was true that they had withstood the shock of 1825 and 6, 
 but they had done it by suddenly withdrawing their accom- 
 modation and compelling the repayment of their advances : 
 the consequence of which had been dreadful havoc, and 
 distress in the trading and agricultural classes in Scotland 
 much greater than in England, notwithstanding the failure
 
 1832 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 233 
 
 of some English Banks. The reserve in the Bank of Paris 
 is always very large and has, at particular times, exceeded 
 the amount of its issues. 
 
 April 6th. After some days of cold and seclusion, 
 I went to Town again yesterday, and staid there to dine 
 with my Political Economy Club : it was an oppressive 
 day with an east wind ; we were a large party, and I never 
 thought a Tavern dinner less alluring. All the great guns 
 of the science were there Malthus, Tooke, M c Culloch, 
 Torrens, Senior. We had also the Vice President and the 
 Secretary of the Board of Trade Poulett-Thomson and 
 Hume the Secretary of the Treasury, Spring Rice, and 
 several visitors. I sat by Spring Rice, who is a cheerful, 
 agreeable, good-natured man, with whom I chatted on all 
 sorts of subjects, and it was much the best part of the 
 entertainment ; for the discussion was on the whole very 
 tedious. It chiefly turned on the benefits likely to result 
 to the country from a free trade in corn. The question 
 was Mr. Pennington's, who thought that the advantages 
 of a free importation would be much more limited than 
 was generally believed. I may be excused for not having 
 quite understood him ; for neither Tooke nor M c Culloch 
 could exactly make out what he meant. So far as I could 
 collect, he thought that a free trade in corn would have 
 the effect of raising the value of the currency and thereby 
 increasing the money value both of corn and manufactures. 
 He also thought that a great demand in this country would 
 raise the rents and cost of production on the Continent, 
 in which opinion Mr. Tooke did not agree. Tooke did not 
 think that we should ever import more than 3 millions 
 of quarters annually, which is little more than was imported 
 in 1830. But I do not see the grounds of such an opinion, 
 with Russia and Poland and North America open.* Malthus 
 evidently thought it a very hazardous experiment, but 
 
 * According to Mr. Chapman's tract on the Canada corn trade the 
 best wheat cannot be brought to market in England under 6os. a 
 quarter.
 
 234 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 M'Culloch was ready to turn the whole country into one 
 vast manufacturing district, filled with smoke and steam 
 engines and radical weavers, and to set adrift all the gentle- 
 men and farmers now constituting our agricultural population. 
 Nor was Tooke at all startled by this beau ideal of a country 
 supplied from the fertile lands of North America and Russian 
 Poland ; only that he did not think it likely to be realised. 
 The discussion at last ran into a question of value, what 
 constituted value in exchange and on this rock it split, 
 and left us all at sea. M^ulloch boldly standing by 
 Ricardo's doctrine, that equal quantities of labour are equal 
 in value all over the world and Torrens and Malthus 
 treating it as a ridiculous notion. M c Culloch at last chal- 
 lenged Torrens to put the point in the form of a question, 
 and pledged himself not to leave him an inch of ground to 
 stand upon ; and the question was accordingly framed, 
 but afterwards dropped by general consent as only likely 
 to lead to interminable disputes. Tooke then opened 
 another question as to why money wages have not fallen 
 in value since the peace, in proportion to the money value 
 of all commodities. The fact is undoubted. The money 
 wages of all mechanics, such as carpenters, shipwrights, 
 bricklayers, masons, printers, rope-makers, bookbinders, 
 tailors, shoemakers, are very nearly as high as during the 
 depreciation of the currency, whereby these classes get an 
 immense advantage ; and no doubt seemed to be entertained 
 of their condition being greatly improved, and that they 
 were better fed, clad and lodged than before the war. The 
 wages rose in consequence of the great scarcity of 1796, 
 and between that and 1802, and the price of most com- 
 modities is not, at the present moment, much above half 
 what it was after the rise. The great improvement in the 
 condition of these classes did not, however, take place till 
 the rise in the value of money between 1818 and 1825, 
 when, notwithstanding a great reduction of taxation, the 
 revenue was very flourishing, a circumstance chiefly due 
 to the increased consumption of these classes. It is not 
 altogether easy to account for the great want of employ-
 
 1832 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 235 
 
 ment and suffering which is heard of and indeed felt and 
 seen in many places consistently with this improvement 
 in the real wages of labour and the substantial comforts 
 of the labourer ; but the fact is that there is a general 
 feeling among the working classes that they are underpaid 
 and ought not to work under such wages as will enable them 
 to command such necessaries and comforts as their improved 
 conditions appear to entitle them : the consequence of 
 which is, that they go on their Friendly and Benefit Societies, 
 and many of them on the Poor Rates rather than submit 
 to a reduction of wages, and thus it is also, that notwith- 
 standing the numbers of unemployed, opinion sanctions 
 among them the violent means to which the trades often 
 have recourse in order to prevent workmen from accepting 
 wages below the usual standard. At Liverpool when a 
 strike took place among the shipwrights some years ago, 
 which ended in their carrying their point, they all went 
 on the Poor Rates. The only means in which working at 
 reduced wages can now be effected, is working by the piece. 
 Mr. Tooke's opinions were concurred in by M c Culloch so 
 far as related to Scotland, and by Mr. Spring Rice as to 
 Ireland. M c Culloch, who is the son of a small landed 
 proprietor in Scotland, said that the agricultural popula- 
 tion of that country was decidedly in better condition than 
 when he was young better fed, clothed and lodged ; and 
 that this was the case with all English northern counties ; 
 and Mr. Spring Rice gave us various particulars of the 
 improved condition of the Irish peasantry, which left no 
 doubt whatever of the fact, and placed it in the clearest 
 evidence ; and yet such is the radical spirit of the times 
 and the many ambitions striving at high places through 
 party spirit and popular discontent, and such also is the 
 dread of all classes to fall in the scale of society that one 
 hears nothing but complaints. The great Tory publications, 
 such as the Quarterly Review and Blackwood's Magazine, 
 in their detestation of Whigs and economists, lead the way 
 in this concert of discontent, and draw such pictures of the 
 misery of the people, of the folly of the Government, the
 
 236 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 crimes of the economists, and the rapacity of landlords, 
 that no Jacobin writers of the French Revolution ever took 
 the lead in greater style ; and yet these publications are 
 the great sticklers for every privilege and abuse, for a 
 large public expenditure, expensive Establishments in 
 Church and State and so forth ; and such is their influence, 
 that Senior, who was Professor of Political Economy at 
 the King's College (and an abler man they could not have 
 had) has been obliged to relinquish his situation in conse- 
 quence of an excellent pamphlet on tythes and the Irish 
 Church Establishment, in which he recommends a reduction 
 of that Establishment. Several of the principal subscribers 
 to the King's College, after reading the violent, not to say 
 outrageous, comments of the Quarterly Review (probably 
 written by Philpot, the Bishop of Exeter) on Senior's 
 pamphlet, intimated to the Council that they must with- 
 draw their support to the College [if] Senior was allowed 
 to retain his situation. The Council reluctantly yielded. 
 Such is the folly of these men, even at the last hour. I 
 had a great deal of conversation at dinner with Spring Rice, 
 an amiable, cheerful, intelligent man, and the best Secretary 
 of the Treasury we have had in my time. He is gloomy 
 about Ireland, and evidently does not see his way, nor does 
 he think it very improbable that it may come to a repeal 
 of the Union. He and Tooke and myself agreed that a 
 more popular Representation was likely to entertain and 
 to act upon much worse opinions than the present Parlia- 
 ment in matters of trade and commercial finance, save per- 
 haps in that great measure of Corn Laws upon which it is 
 not improbable that a headlong and sudden change of policy 
 may take place. Nothing can be worse than the present 
 French Chamber of Deputies in all matters of commercial 
 policy. They have defeated by large majorities every 
 attempt of the Minister, Perier, to introduce more en- 
 lightened views. Senior and Spring Rice had some talk 
 about Ireland ; and Spring Rice does not seem to concur 
 in Senior's notion of applying the Revenues of 18 Bishoprics 
 to the maintenance of the Catholic Clergy (the only way of
 
 1832 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 237 
 
 assisting Ireland), but wants 200,000 out of the Church 
 Revenues for purposes of education. They mentioned a 
 late work of Dr. Chalmers on the Poor laws, and a French 
 work, Duchatel Sur la Charite, as quite excellent. Senior 
 and another Member of the Club, Coulson, who is Editor 
 of the Globe, have been lately appointed, together with 
 the Bishops of London and Chester and Mr. Sturges Bourne, 
 Members of a Commission for enquiring into the Poor Laws. 
 All good appointments. 
 
 June 8th. Attended my Political Economy Club yester- 
 day. We had a good party Tooke, Malthus, Senior, 
 M c Culloch, Sir Henry Parnell, Poulett-Thomson, Whit- 
 more, Loyd, Coulson Babbage was one of the visitors. 
 The question discussed was Mr. Loyd's, only son of Lewis 
 Loyd the Banker, one of the richest commoners in Eng- 
 land ; it had been discussed at the preceding Meeting, 
 but being important and just now under the consideration 
 of a Committee of the House of Commons, of which we had 
 two members present, it was determined to have it again. 
 It was whether it was expedient that the Government 
 should retain in its own hands the exclusive power of 
 issuing paper in lieu of coin ; and, if not, under what limita- 
 tions should it concede that power to any other body or 
 bodies. The conclusion appeared to have been at the preced- 
 ing meeting that government should not assume the power 
 {for retain is not the proper word), and that it should grant 
 it to a distinct Body and to no other within the limits of 
 the present Bank Charter ; but as to the limitations there 
 appeared to be great differences of opinion. The greater 
 number of persons present seemed to think that the Bank 
 of England should continue to issue its notes by means of 
 discounts others, such as Tooke, Loyd, Pennington, were 
 of opinion that it should have no other money transactions 
 than the purchase and sale of Government securities. 
 The question seemed therefore to be between a Mercantile 
 Establishment, such as the Bank, discounting Paper and 
 receiving deposits, or a Paper Mint put into commission,
 
 238 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 and having at all times coin and Government securities 
 to the amount of its notes. So at least I understood it. 
 The advocates for the present system, and Palmer, the Gover- 
 nor of the Bank, particularly, laid great stress on the import- 
 ance of the Bank to the commercial world in supporting 
 credit in times of difficulty. What would Bankers and houses 
 of trade do if they could not get assistance in those times ? 
 It appeared to me, however, that this supporting of public 
 credit and so forth was very much in the nature of humbug 
 and had very little meaning, though it sounded mighty 
 well ; and that if the people in business were left to their 
 own resources, the exercise of their own judgment and 
 prudence, they would be much more cautious of entering 
 into engagements and speculative concerns than they do 
 now that they can depend on the Bank in case of need, an 
 opinion in which Mr. Tooke fully concurred. In the course 
 of the discussion, some questions arose as to the advantages 
 and disadvantages of Paper Money. M c Culloch held up 
 the Scotch Banks, but Mr. Tooke observed that comparing 
 Scotland, where there is a large circulation of Paper Money 
 and Banks of Credit and particularly Glasgow with 
 Lancashire and Manchester, where there is no Paper Money, 
 the failures in Glasgow had been as 6 to i in Manchester. 
 The assistance of the Bank in 1826 was quoted as having 
 been very successful, but it was by their discounts and 
 assisting individual Traders that the community was 
 benefited. The distress chiefly arose from a sudden con- 
 traction of the circulating medium occasioned by the 
 failures of country Banks, and what was wanted was an 
 issue to supply that void. The moment the Bank determined 
 on buying Exchequer Bills, and thus issued paper, the 
 distress subsided. M c Culloch, who has, I believe, advocated 
 the cause of the Bank for a valuable consideration, and 
 had pooh pooh'd all doubts as to its commercial importance, 
 at last condescended to give his reasons, such as they were ; 
 and observed, sensibly enough, that all the inconvenience 
 complained of with regard to issues by way of discounts 
 at a fixed rate of interest and from a body of men who had
 
 1832 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 239 
 
 a very great sympathy with commercial distress, might be 
 obviated by varying the rate of discount from week to 
 week or month to month according to the state of the 
 exchanges and the money market. But after all what was 
 the advantage of Paper Money over coin, save the cheapness, 
 and what was the stimulus and assistance to be given to 
 commercial enterprise and commercial credit and from 
 whence were the profits of banking to be derived unless 
 the Paper issues were free and exceeded in amount what 
 would be circulated in the shape of coin ? Senior held that 
 there ought to be a greater quantity of paper in circula- 
 tion than there would be of a metallic circulation, and upon 
 this issue was joined, and a question settled for the next 
 meeting as to the principles on which issues of Paper Money 
 ought to take place. Mr. Pennington justly observed that 
 it was one of the greatest disadvantages attending Paper 
 Money that the contractions of the currency from whatever 
 cause, in countries where any considerable part of the 
 circulation consisted of paper, did not follow the same 
 Laws as contractions of the currency in which the circula- 
 tion consisted altogether of coin. In the latter case the 
 effects are very limited, and the equilibrium soon restored ; 
 the general circulating medium of Europe being metallic, 
 any derangement in the relative value of gold and silver 
 in any one country immediately rights itself, as it would if 
 it happened in any province of England or France with 
 reference to the other provinces. But a sudden panic or 
 other event that discredits paper and promissory notes in a 
 country that has a paper currency or a mixed currency at once 
 throws out of circulation a large portion of the currency 
 peculiar to that country, the fall of prices is therefore 
 enormous, and it is only through the medium of trade, 
 through perhaps distant parts of the world, that the equili- 
 brium can be restored. 
 
 July 6th, 1832. I dined yesterday at my Political Economy 
 Club. We had Blake, M c Culloch, Tooke, Torrens, Senior, 
 Spring Rice, Palmer, the Governor of the Bank, Bingham
 
 240 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 Baring, John Romilly, Pennington, Coulson, Loyd. The 
 question of Banks and currency was resumed, and we had 
 a real debate, for both Mr. Palmer and Senior and the 
 Rev. Sidney Smith, who was our visitor, held that the pros- 
 perity of the country (if it be prosperous) was owing to paper 
 money and the facilities of credit afforded by banking. 
 They even went so far as to describe issues of paper currency 
 as a creation of capital, and Sidney Smith talked of the 
 moral influence country Banks had : stimulating industry, 
 encouraging exertions and good character, and so forth ; 
 of which anything more incorrect cannot well be conceived, 
 for I take it that the facilities of credit given by country 
 Banks have made ten speculators for one industrious man, 
 and have given a feverish and artificial stimulus to business 
 and agriculture, of which the effects have been anything 
 but salutary. This was strongly urged by Tooke and 
 others, who contrasted the progress and wealth of Lanca- 
 shire, in which county, including Manchester and Liverpool, 
 there is no want of intelligence, industry and adventurous 
 spirit, and yet no paper money. Mr. Tooke said, in which 
 he was confirmed by Mr. S. J. Loyd, whose Banking House, 
 Jones and Loyd, have a great connection with that county, 
 that for six failures at Glasgow there has not been one at 
 Manchester. Again, look at Holland and Hamburg and 
 Geneva and many parts of France, where great industry 
 and prosperity prevail without any paper currency or 
 artificial means of obtaining credit. Then as to capital 
 being created by the issue of paper money, M'KIulloch 
 treated it with the greatest contempt, and exposed the 
 fallacy of such an opinion. All that a Bank can do I 
 mean all the good of which it can be the instrument to the 
 community consists in collecting in the way of deposits 
 accumulations of capital obtained at a low rate of interest, 
 and which would not otherwise be beneficially employed, 
 but might be hoarded or wasted in unprofitable speculations, 
 and distributing these judiciously and at a higher rate of 
 interest, so as to afford the Bank some profits, to those who 
 are in want of capital to the industrious and skilful.
 
 1832 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 241 
 
 In that way no doubt and to that intent, Banks are bene- 
 ficial, but no further ; but unless the paper issued by them 
 represents capital already in existence, such as lands or 
 goods or houses or available securities, the issue is un- 
 justifiable, and the paper has no other effect than that 
 of artificially raising the price of commodities, and to 
 induce people to speculate by purchases at higher nominal 
 prices than the commodities are worth in a sound currency. 
 These notions of paper currency prosperity, however, exten- 
 sively prevail, and are very much encouraged by the news- 
 papers, who in their radical zeal against the Bank of England, 
 which they consider as a part of the old Pitt system, are 
 calling for a free trade in paper, and are supported by 
 many men of influence and talent such as Warburton, 
 Sir Henry Parnell, Mr. Atwood hence the fight made in 
 the Bank Committee and the postponement of the question 
 by Lord Althorp, who easily alarmed by adverse opinions and 
 distrustful of his own judgment on such subjects, has con- 
 sented to hand it over to the reformed Parliament. Mr. 
 Loyd, who had been examined that morning by a com- 
 mittee, gave a very indifferent account of them, and said 
 that the questions they put to him were not at all calculated 
 to elicit useful information, and that it appeared to him 
 they were floundering in the dark. In fact we are in a 
 worse state in this respect than in 1818, and the men of our 
 day are not to be compared to Lord Grenville, Huskisson, 
 Lord Liverpool. Mr. Pennington, an able man, mentioned 
 a scheme of his, a sort of modification of the Bank of Eng- 
 land, only that he would have a fixed amount of notes 
 and the business entrusted to a Government Commission. 
 Torrens had also a scheme, too absurd to be noticed here, 
 and which I only mention to shew the extreme mischief 
 of leaving such questions constantly afloat, and artificial 
 systems of currency and credit to be concocted by Com- 
 mittees of the House of Commons. There is no cure for it 
 but a pure metallic currency and no other ; but a reformed 
 Parliament, on the contrary, will try every possible quackery. 
 When the people are masters they must have their own way,
 
 242 Political Economy Club 1832 
 
 and why should the King have the monopoly of coining 
 and the Bank the monopoly of notes ? One of the most 
 curious circumstances of the evening was M c Culloch's 
 completely giving up the Scotch Banks and their system, 
 which has not, so far as I know, a single advocate left in 
 the Club, although nothing is so popular out of doors. 
 
 December 7th, 1832. The Political Economy Club met 
 yesterday for the first time this season. All the Parlia- 
 mentary People were absent, busy with their Elections : 
 but we had M c Culloch, Senior, Tooke : we had likewise 
 several strangers, who attended with a view to the questions 
 that were to be discussed : Le Marchant, Secretary to the 
 Lord Chancellor, Mr. Blencowe and Mr. Chadwick, Commis- 
 sioners for the Poor Laws. The questions were whether it 
 would be advisable to transfer the whole of the assessments 
 for the Poor and administration of the Poor Laws to Govern- 
 ment, or the collection and administration only : and to 
 continue the present mode of Parish assessments or pay 
 the rate out of the General Taxation of the Country. Senior, 
 who is the head of the Poor Law Commission, stated the 
 case, and described the result of the information that had 
 been collected all over the Country, as in the highest degree 
 unsatisfactory and alarming. He had no doubt, that at 
 least in the Southern Counties, the property of the Country 
 was gradually absorbing by the Poor Rates ; and said that 
 it was nearly as progressive in Leicestershire, Norfolk and 
 parts of Yorkshire and Lancashire. The administration of 
 the Poor Laws was universally bad, ignorant, careless, 
 profligate : the grossest abuses and misapplication existed 
 in the agricultural districts ; and in many places the amount 
 distributed was much more regulated by the fears of the 
 Farmers, whose stocks were exposed to destruction, than 
 by any just principles. In many instances the rates were 
 thrown in a very unfair proportion on houses ; and the 
 labour rate, which had lately obtained, instead of a money 
 rate, was attended with still grosser injustice. Senior and 
 nine-tenths of the Persons agreed that nothing could be
 
 1832 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 243 
 
 well worse than the present system and that some great 
 alteration was badly called for, but the difficulties of Senior's 
 scheme are almost insuperable, and I very much doubt 
 whether it could ever be made palatable to Parliament. 
 The Scotch system was much eulogised by Mr. Cameron, 
 but M c Culloch differed from him. I recommended to 
 Senior that whenever he and his Brother Commissioner 
 should have matured their scheme, they should publish it 
 with such arguments and facts as might be adduced in 
 support of it, for on such a subject it was impossible to 
 arrive at any great alteration and legislative measures 
 thro' any other means than Public opinion and the united 
 efforts of enlightened men. M c Culloch contended that 
 self interest was the only effective check : but Chadwick 
 clearly shewed that the interest of the ratepayers was in 
 most instances at variance with the interest of the indi- 
 viduals who acted as distributors for the rates ; they having 
 a much stronger desire of conciliating the labourers and 
 falling in with the sympathies of the Benevolent, than in 
 checking the amount of the rate ; the proportion contri- 
 buted by them individually being generally small. This 
 holds good of all persons exercising Charity with funds con- 
 tributed by benevolent Societies and comparatively wealthy 
 contributors. Mr. Chadwick, who is a young man and a 
 great Radical, but a clever, clear-headed, able man, men- 
 tioned to me remarkable circumstances connected with the 
 Metropolitan Districts. In many places, the claims put 
 forth for the office of Assistant Overseer (a salaried officer) 
 were bankruptcy in trade, a family of ten children, and such 
 circumstances as ought to be positive disqualifications. In 
 St. Luke's, the Parish were in a state of absolute bank- 
 ruptcy ; but in general, the larger and more populous 
 Parishes, such as Marylebone and Pancras, were much better 
 administered than smaller Districts and Parishes. 
 
 January llth, 1833. I went yesterday to my Political Economy 
 Club. It was a large meeting. We had M c Culloch, Tooke, 
 Malthus, Torrens, Senior, Sir Henry Parnell, Blake, Poulett-
 
 244 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 Thomson, Spring Rice, Palmer, Larpent, Norman, John 
 Romilly, Pennington, Lyall, and some visitors. The subject 
 was the same as at the last meeting. The Poor Laws and 
 the propriety of transferring the collection and distribution 
 of the funds to Government Officers under a Board. Senior, 
 who has been the most active Commissioner in the late 
 enquiry, and from whom this proposal comes at least the 
 statement and the estimate of the expenses ; for he does 
 not venture to recommend it Senior propounded the 
 question, and read a letter he had addressed to the Chancellor 
 on the subject. No one thought it possible that Government 
 should undertake the administration in the manner sug- 
 gested, and even in any direct manner, for as Spring Rice 
 justly observed, it would be very unwise in any Government 
 to take such responsibility on themselves ; nor would 
 Parliament sanction an additional expense of half a million 
 with an immense patronage for a contingent good. Mr. 
 Blake, who has done a great deal in the Parish in which his 
 Estate is situated, Welling in Hertfordshire, and Norman, 
 who has also taken pains in his Parish of Bromley, stated 
 the very satisfactory result of their exertions, a great 
 reduction of Poor Rates and an amelioration in the condi- 
 tion of the poor. The chief means had been the confining 
 all relief to the Poor House and the giving no wages out of 
 poor rates and generally discontinuing pensions. Mr. Blake 
 was of opinion that much might be effected by obliging all 
 accounts of poor relief to be kept on one uniform plan, 
 which would shew the system acted upon ; and the appoint- 
 ment in each County by Government of a Committee of 
 some of the most intelligent Magistrates (for the abuses in 
 the administration of the poor laws were by common consent 
 attributed to the ignorance and indolence and false humanity 
 of Magistrates) entrusted with the exclusive management 
 of the Poor Laws, and provided with instructions. These 
 magistrates might or might not be paid, as might be most 
 desirable. It seems that the owners of land have no 
 voice in the vestries unless they are likewise occupiers and 
 rated ; but as their property is really the thing in danger,
 
 1833 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 245 
 
 from the charge upon it in respect of Poor Rates, increasing 
 from year to year, they ought really to be ipso facto vestry- 
 men, and have a right of interference in the appointment of 
 the overseers and officers who are to administer the relief. 
 
 February 9th, 1833. We had a good meeting at the Political 
 Economy Club on Thursday last, although all our Members 
 of Parliament, save the Treasurer of the Navy, were in the 
 House debating the address. Mr. Loyd was in the Chair ; 
 and we had the Archbishop of Dublin (Whateley), the 
 Sardinian Minister and Prince Cimitilli among the visitors. 
 The question that was discussed was Mr. Tooke's, and 
 related to the circumstance of wages the money wages 
 of almost all artificers such as tailors, shoemakers, coach- 
 makers, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, painters, ship- 
 wrights, bookbinders, paper-makers, and so forth, being 
 the same or nearly the same as in 1813, although the money 
 price of most commodities has fallen very considerably, 
 and taxation has been reduced 25 millions a year. The 
 facts as stated by Mr. Tooke are curious. The wages of 
 artificers from 1735 to 1795 were almost stationary. Some 
 advances then took place ; but the great rise a rise from 
 which wages have never receded was the consequence of 
 the great scarcity and enhancement in the price of pro- 
 visions of 1800 and 1801. Then arose a struggle between 
 the capitalist and the labourer, which in the case of the 
 agricultural labourer led to making up wages from poor 
 rates, and in the case of the artisan led to a very great 
 increase of money wages. Carpenters, for instance, who 
 had received 2s. 6d. a day for a series of 65 years ending 
 in 1795, received 45. 6d. a day in 1805 and 55. lod. in 1813 ; 
 and so of most other trades, save manufacturers whose 
 wages have undergone great fluctuations, occasioned by 
 the invention of new machinery and the rise and fall in the 
 demand for manufactured goods. Two causes besides the 
 scarcity of 1801 seem to have contributed to the rise of 
 money wages above alluded to. The one was the depreciation 
 of the currency, the other the demand for men induced
 
 246 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 by the war ; and yet, notwithstanding the great fall in 
 money prices of almost all commodities since the war and 
 the greater competition for employment that resulted from 
 the restoration of peace, wages have not fallen in any 
 considerable degree, and artisans, particularly those classes 
 of artisans whose trades require an apprenticeship and 
 whose handicraft is more or less in the nature of skilled 
 labour, are generally receiving the same money wages or 
 nearly so that they did in 1810 and 1813. Nor is this con- 
 fined to London ; for on reference to a table of the money 
 prices of work and provisions at Glasgow, compiled with 
 great care and annexed to a work on the Statistics of Glasgow 
 by Dr. Cleland, the same results are found there. Almost 
 all wages, save weavers' wages, are nearly the same at 
 Glasgow as in 1810. Some labour is even better paid ; 
 and although weavers' wages have fallen about one half, 
 is it said that they derive a compensation from the employ- 
 ment of their children in attending the power looms. To 
 form a just estimate of the rise of real wages since 1810, 
 it is necessary, not only to advert to the rise in the value 
 of the currency and the diminished weight of taxation, 
 but also to the fall in the price of the necessaries of life, 
 such as bread, potatoes, beer, sugar, candles, soap, salt, 
 house rent and all commodities in the manufacture of which 
 machinery is concerned, such as cottons and hardware. 
 It is considered in Scotland that a labourer earning a peck 
 of oatmeal a day earns enough for his subsistence. Now 
 oatmeal was 2s. 2d. a peck in 1810 ; it is now is. Potatoes 
 were then gd. a stone ; they are now 5d. Salt is not above 
 one-tenth ; sugar about half the price. It therefore appears 
 that a much greater amount of wages is distributed among 
 the same number and description of artisans than 20 years 
 ago, and the question is how this is consistent with the 
 doctrine of the equalisation of wages, and the proportion 
 the price of labour is supposed to bear to demand and 
 supply. Mr. Tooke thought it was chiefly to be resolved 
 into moral causes inducing such combinations, activity, 
 determination of purpose, limitation of apprentices in trades
 
 1833 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 247 
 
 and so forth on the part of the artisans, whose wants and 
 comforts having been enlarged would not suffer a reduction 
 of their acquired advantages, and also from the greater 
 weight of public opinion and popular feeling which sup- 
 ported them against the capitalist. Mr. Malthus and 
 myself coincided in this opinion, and also thought that 
 although the wages of all persons employed had thus been 
 kept up, somewhat artificially, the consequences had been 
 to limit employment, and to throw on the poor rates and 
 on the charitable funds of society a large mass of individuals 
 whose labour was thus precluded from entering into com- 
 petition with the mass of privileged labourers, and was 
 not therefore marketable ; and instances were adduced of 
 artisans brought up to trades for which the demand was 
 lessened and who could not in consequence of combinations 
 get work at lower wages than the minimum fixed by the 
 Trade. This is particularly the case in London with regard 
 to tailors, paper-stainers, and other trades. So that although 
 a greater aggregate amount of wages is distributed among 
 the artisans employed, it appeared doubtful whether a 
 large amount of capital would not be employed beneficially 
 if labour were more free ; and whether also a much greater 
 number of persons would not find employment at adequate 
 and fair rates of remuneration, instead as at present of 
 having recourse to the Poor Rates. It seems at all events 
 unaccountable that wages should have been uninterrupt- 
 edly kept up, by mere competition, under all circumstances, 
 for 20 years, in which interval there has been a great lessen- 
 ing of taxation, great changes in the value of the currency, 
 great cheapening of production in many of the necessaries 
 of life, and great fluctuation in commercial and agricultural 
 prosperity ; nor do I think it can be accounted for other- 
 wise than with reference to the combination of workmen 
 and regulations of the trades, supported as they have 
 been by a much greater weight of opinion and popular 
 influence and by which means the working classes have 
 secured to themselves a larger share of the produce of their 
 labour.
 
 248 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 March 9th, 1833. I was in the Chair on Thursday last at 
 the Political Economy Club ; and had on my right hand the 
 Archbishop of Dublin, and on my left Stewart, the author 
 of a work on the United States a coarse looking man, more 
 like " mine host of the Red Lyon " than a literary character. 
 He was the man who killed Boswell in a duel, in which 
 Boswell was grossly the aggressor. He afterwards joined 
 James Brougham in card speculations in Scotland, in which 
 he lost not only his all and situation worth 800 a year, 
 but also the money of his relatives and friends. His crossing 
 the Atlantic was to fly from the consequences of these grave 
 follies. The Archbishop, though a Reformer, is not a Radical, 
 particularly in church matters, and I was amused in think- 
 ing of my left hand neighbour's secret republican comments 
 on Whateley's declarations against agitators and despoilers 
 of church property. He was just come from the House of 
 Lords, where Lord King had been indulging in one of his 
 tirades against the clergy towards whom he seems actuated 
 by much the same feeling as the philosophical French 
 writers. I observed to Malthus that there was nothing of 
 that manner in his conversation ; but Malthus said that he 
 was always, even as a boy, of a remarkably mischievous 
 disposition. There is nothing overbearing in Whateley ; 
 but he has the manner of a man who has been long supreme 
 in the combination room, and accustomed to lord it over 
 fellow commoners. He is a bad listener, interrupts con- 
 versation, and seems to be going on, giving vent to the 
 current of his own thoughts, without any regard to his 
 company. It is at Lansdowne House just as it is at the 
 Club. 
 
 The subject for the evening was the effect of tythes on 
 rents, prices of raw produce, population and profits, and 
 what would be the effect of the removal of tythes in these 
 several particulars. We did not, as usual, come to any 
 very distinct conclusions ; but the general opinion seemed 
 to be, that if tythes were abolished, a part of the advantage 
 would go to the landlord in the form of rent, and another, 
 and smaller part, to the consumer ; but as the average
 
 1833 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 249 
 
 portion of the raw produce which goes to the payment of 
 tythes does not exceed 7 or 8 per cent, and as more than a 
 third of the cultivated land in England is tythe free, the 
 total advantage to the landlord and consumer would not 
 exceed 4 or 5 per cent, between them, if so much. 
 
 April 12th. State of science in London. The Rev. R. 
 Jones, Professor of Political Economy at the King's College, 
 gave his introductory lecture 6 weeks ago ; about 300 
 persons were present, and it was spoken of in the highest 
 terms. He was requested to print it, with which request 
 he injudiciously complied ; for the lecture does not read 
 so well as when delivered. The next lecture about 60 
 persons attended, of whom 3 or 4 only paid for a course. 
 It was then determined that no person should be admitted 
 without subscribing ; and the consequence was that last 
 Wednesday, when the 3rd lecture was to be delivered, 
 Mr. Jones was alone in the room with another professor, 
 and no lecture took place. And yet Political Economy 
 is a subject of universal discussion. The newspapers and 
 reviews teem with articles good, bad and indifferent on 
 this subject. Twenty pamphlets on a property tax have 
 appeared within the last month, and yet not a single student 
 not a single individual in this great town thinks it worth 
 while to attend to the opinions of an able and sensible man 
 on the principles which might enable him to judge between 
 right and wrong in that science. No wonder that so much 
 dangerous absurdity makes its way into books and con- 
 versations in the practice of life. 
 
 It is a mistake in professors of science, as Mr. A. Lyall 
 to-day observed, who give public lectures, to admit the 
 public, even in an introductory lecture, gratuitously, for 
 curiosity and interest prompt a certain number of persons 
 to attend a new lecture if the professor be a man of any 
 reputation ; and when once the subscription is paid the 
 subscriber will make a point of having his money's worth, 
 and will walk miles and defy hail showers to get to the lecture 
 room. It is wonderful how much a man will do to save
 
 250 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 losing a guinea unnecessarily, though he may waste and 
 misspend thousands a year. I remember talking many 
 years ago with Alex. Baring, then a Bank Director, of the 
 use of the fines in stimulating attendance, and his saying : 
 " You would hardly believe it, but I assure you that when 
 I get to St. Paul's and find that I shall hardly save my 
 guinea fine at the Bank, unless I hasten my pace, it puts 
 me upon something like a trot to arrive in time." 
 
 December 6th, 1833. Yesterday was the first meeting of 
 the Political Economy Club. Malthus, Tooke, Senior, 
 Spring Rice, Loyd, Lyall, Larpent, John Romilly, ATCulloch, 
 Pennington were there. Our accounts seemed from the 
 report of the treasurer (Cowell) to be in a very confused 
 state, the arrears of subscriptions not collected amount to 
 400 ; and we have three Tavern Bills unpaid. Some 
 people, such as Bingham Baring, Poulett-Thomson, have 
 never paid any subscriptions, and Tooke and myself were 
 appointed a Committee to look into these matters and 
 suggest regulations. The question for the night was Spring 
 Rice's on the effect of Poor Laws in Ireland. He spoke 
 for half an hour excellently well and much to the purpose. 
 He first examined the question as to England ; the immigra- 
 tion of Irish into England is partly casual, partly other- 
 wise. The casual emigration is that of labourers who 
 come to England in harvest time hay and corn harvest- 
 to assist. They generally work by the piece and very hard, 
 and earn a good deal in a short time. Such an immigration 
 takes place from country to country, from mountain to 
 plain, from a country of cheap to a country of dear labour, 
 all over the world. The Campagna di Roma is entirely 
 harvested by the peasants from the hills. It was assimilated 
 by Rice to any process for cheapening labour. To a machine. 
 Would this immigration be checked by Poor Laws ? Un- 
 doubtedly not ; for it is not the pauper who comes over, 
 but the active, industrious, daring volatile tenantry of 
 Ireland ; the higher English will always tempt them over. 
 As to their being a charge to English parishes in returning
 
 1 833 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 251 
 
 them, that is the fault of the English Poor Laws. But the 
 rate of wages will, it is said, be raised in Ireland by the 
 introduction of Poor Laws. After all, the raising of wages 
 is not an absolute but only relative advantage. If the 
 increase does not disturb the relation between labour and 
 capital, well and good ; but if the effect be to check employ- 
 ment, to give more than enough (as is the case in England 
 with regard to large classes of workmen) and to throw 
 the remainder of the population on the rates, it will be no 
 advantage to the country. But will Poor Laws raise the 
 value of labour ; has it had that effect in the South of 
 England ? Quite otherwise. Why then in Ireland ? 
 Again the domestic ties are strong in Ireland ; but if you 
 free the labourer from the care and maintenance of those 
 dependent on him, he will leave them to the care of the 
 parish, and come and earn larger wages in England. Those 
 who wish to prevent the growth of a population in Ireland, 
 and at the same time call for a legal provision for the small 
 tenantry who are expelled to make room for a better class 
 of farmers, may be actuated by a praiseworthy humanity ; 
 but their wishes are inconsistent, for a Poor Law would 
 fix for ever the locust population on the estate. The great 
 system now is to reduce tenants and improve farms. It 
 is by these means that Ireland is improving ; but a Poor 
 Law will check the process. What possibility is there that 
 the administration of the Poor Laws in Ireland will be 
 less abusive, less corrupt, less mischievous to the rate 
 receivers than in England? None whatever quite the 
 reverse. The difficulty of an honest and wise administration 
 of the law will be tenfold. There is another great difficulty 
 in Ireland, which is the division of the country in town- 
 ships, upon some of which, accidentally burthened with 
 tenantry, the pressure would be intolerable ; in others 
 extremely slight. It would at once make an unwise altera- 
 tion in the value of property. As to lowering rents, in some 
 places it would absorb the whole rental, as in some parts 
 of Buckinghamshire ; but in others it would raise the 
 rental with the rise of the produce, with the greater demand
 
 252 Political Economy Club 1833 
 
 that would immediately arise for the necessaries of life by 
 their being placed more within the reach of all ; whilst 
 the net rental now remitted to absentees or employed in the 
 purchase of foreign commodities would be absorbed by the 
 Poor Rate. Tooke thought that a compulsory assistance 
 for the poor was necessary on the occasion of the famines 
 which recur periodically in Ireland from the failure of the 
 potato crop, 1823 and 1831 ; but if you begin assessing, 
 where are you to end ? M c Culloch, who has of late years 
 become an advocate for Poor Laws, draws a distinction 
 between the principle of those laws and the abusive admin- 
 istration ; but after the example of England, what hope 
 is there for Ireland ? He held that the Poor Laws had 
 checked the growth of population in England, which I very 
 much doubt. He derided in his cynical manner the notion 
 of inculcating provident feelings among the poor said 
 that a poor man had no inducement to be provident. He 
 seemed to question the cui bono, and yet experience and 
 common sense tell us that the operation of these feelings 
 is often very effectual and extensive among the poor, that 
 it is different in different countries, with different degrees 
 of education and in different circumstances. Perhaps the 
 very poor the man who earns a bare subsistence has no 
 great inducement, and yet we see many of them subscribe 
 to sick clubs and other provident institutions, so that it is 
 a question of degree, and no man with any propriety of 
 feeling would raise a question on the subject. M c CuUoch 
 likewise forgets, in speaking of the tendency of the Poor 
 Laws, and so did all the speakers, that the mischievous 
 tendency has been greatly stimulated for the last 20 years 
 by the notion now generally entertained by the poor that 
 it is a right and no disgrace to fall on the parish, and also 
 by the extraordinary activity and development of the prin- 
 ciple of benevolence in modern times. M c Culloch, however, 
 tranquilizes himself by the assurance felt and expressed 
 by him that "at no time had the population of the country 
 been better fed and clothed and lodged than at the present 
 time." Norman thought that in an old and fully peopled
 
 1833 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 253 
 
 country there was no medium between beggarism and a 
 legal provision for the poor, and he was on the whole for a 
 legal provision ; but the circumstances of Ireland were 
 such that the introduction of Poor Laws in Ireland was a 
 very serious consideration, for in a country where there was 
 not labour for two days in the week for each man, a Poor 
 Law would at once throw a large part of the population 
 on the property of the country. At all events, it was a step 
 that could not be receded from. Whatever stimulus to 
 industry it might at first produce, if you give every man a 
 claim to support from the rates, as soon as the novelty 
 had subsided they would become altogether dependent. 
 It would be a tremendous agrarian Law. Mr. Malthus 
 observed that a Poor Law would fix the surplus and unem- 
 ployed population in Ireland instead of putting them 
 upon means of providing for it by emigration. Senior 
 was of course very decided. He observed generally as to 
 the Poor Laws, and with reference to M c Culloch's state- 
 ment, that if each parish belonged to a distinct landlord, 
 that landlord might prevent all increase of population. 
 It is the case in some places in Sussex where the cottages 
 have been pulled down. But the effect on the neighbouring 
 parishes and towns is tremendous. Reading is inundated 
 with poor from such clearances in the neighbourhood. But 
 as in most parishes there are several occupiers, any one 
 occupier building small cottages will defeat all the effects 
 which M c Culloch ascribes to the Poor Laws of being the 
 means of checking population. As Senior justly observed, 
 the working of the Poor Laws in such a lawless country as 
 Ireland will be quite fearful. We now see in many places 
 that the farmers get their stacks fired if they refuse relief 
 to able-bodied idle men ; but in Ireland the offending 
 overseer will be fired upon from behind every hedge in the 
 parish. 
 
 January 10th, 1834. I attended yesterday my Political 
 Economy Club. The question was M c Culloch's, and related 
 to the effect on rents of the commutation of tythes and
 
 254 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 repeal of the Corn Laws ; and after a discussion in which 
 there were many differences of opinion, it appeared to me 
 that the only thing which was clear was, that if a com- 
 mutation of tythes, founded on the present value of the 
 produce of land, were to take place this year, on the prin- 
 ciple of turning the value of the tythes into a money charge 
 on the land, and the Corn Laws were afterwards abolished 
 in a year or two, the landowners would sustain a double 
 injury, for the value of produce would fall, land would be 
 thrown out of cultivation, rents would be much lower, 
 and yet the landowner would have to pay the Clergy the 
 same money amount. The Clergy would be greatly benefited, 
 but the Landowner would be damaged. It seemed also very 
 doubtful whether even under the most favourable circum- 
 stances to agriculture, the Landowners will be able to 
 throw the burden of the commuted tythes on rent, and 
 increase their rents in any proportion at all adequate to- 
 the new money charge on their estates arising from such 
 commutation. 
 
 One of the things that struck me most was M c Culloch's 
 speaking of Ricardo's theory with regard to the effect of 
 tythes on the price of produce as one of the most rash 
 speculations of that writer. I remember a time when 
 M c Culloch was the devoted and ardent disciple of Ricardo, 
 his most able commentator, and the champion of all his 
 opinions. So much for the progress of science ! 
 
 7th February, 1834. Dined yesterday at the Political 
 Economy Club. The question discussed was relative to 
 settlements under the Poor Laws, a source of interminable 
 disputes, legal difficulties and expense to the country. 
 Mr. Sturges Bourne, Senior, Coulson, all Commissioners 
 for enquiring into the Poor Laws, were there, and drew a 
 melancholy, and I fear hopeless, picture of the effects of 
 these laws. It seemed to be agreed on all hands that there 
 ought to be but one claim to settlement, namely, birth, 
 all other means of gaining settlement leading to perjuries, 
 deceit, and misdoings of every kind, both on the part of
 
 1834 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 255 
 
 the labourer and the capitalist. I sat by M c Culloch, who 
 incidentally mentioned that he was preparing a new edition 
 of his Dictionary of Commerce, published 3 years ago. Two 
 thousand copies of the first edition sold at 2 IDS. a copy 
 in the course of 9 months, and yet it is far from being an 
 accurate work or a work of any great authority. A number 
 of Returns to the House of Commons, which cost a consider- 
 able sum to the country, were called for, and obtained for 
 M c Culloch by Poulett-Thomson with a view to the com- 
 pilation of this work. 
 
 March 6th, 1834. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 to-day. We had Malthus, Senior, M c Culloch, Norman, 
 Tooke, Spring Rice, Sir Henry Parnell, Palmer, Loyd, 
 Coulson, John Romilly, Hume, the Secretary to the Board 
 of Trade, who was elected last month, Mr. George Evans, 
 member for the County of Dublin. We were altogether 
 about 20. Before dinner we elected Mr. Morrison, member 
 for Ipswich, in the room of Mr. George Villiers, who is gone 
 to Madrid as Minister to that Court. Mr. Morrison was 
 originally apprenticed to a watchmaker. His relatives, the 
 Flints, great ready-money haberdashers, afterwards took 
 him in their House, where he remodelled the whole system 
 of the shop in a way so advantageous in its results that 
 he naturally expected to become a partner. The Flints 
 would not, however, do it, so he quitted them and went 
 into a House of the same description, the Todds in Fore 
 Street, Cheapside. There, being a handsome as well as clever 
 man, he soon made himself necessary, and captivated Miss 
 Todd, whom he married, and was taken in partnership. 
 He then established agents in the manufacturing towns 
 who had ready money at the service of any man who was 
 disposed to make a sacrifice to turn his goods into cash. 
 He pursued the same system in London, and bought and 
 sold anything in the shape of manufactured goods, English 
 and foreign, always increasing in importance and prosperity, 
 till his warehouses were like a palace and his fortune princely. 
 He is supposed to have realised a million sterling. He is
 
 256 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 a well-informed, clever man, and seconded the address at 
 the opening of the present session. 
 
 A question of Malthus : " Whether the low prices of 
 exportable commodities, as far as they are independent of 
 processes of production, arise from foreign or domestic 
 competition," was discussed. It was not a good question, 
 because no general and satisfactory solution could be 
 given. It might be determined as to particular commodities, 
 as to silk or carpets or any other distinct article, but not 
 generally. Malthus thought well, on the whole, of our 
 manufacturing prospects. He thought that our success 
 depended in the main on circumstances, not subject to 
 great fluctuations, such as our abundance of fuel or mechan- 
 ical ingenuity, our great capital, our rapid and cheap com- 
 munications, the efficiency of our labour. He ascribed the 
 low prices of exportable commodities to less profits, im- 
 provements in machinery, fall of raw produce and fall of 
 wages ; for he held that wages had fallen manufacturing 
 wages an opinion in which he stood almost alone. He 
 chiefly relied for the truth of his opinion on the relative 
 proportion between the number of persons employed in trade 
 and manufactures and the amount of circulating medium 
 in 1811 and 1830, the proportion of manufacturing and trad- 
 ing population to the whole population having increased 
 since 1811 33 per cent., and the amount of circulation in 1811 
 having been 33 millions and being now only 36 millions ; 
 but independently of the difficulty of drawing such a con- 
 clusion from this single fact, if it were to be depended upon it 
 would prove too much. If manufacturing wages have fallen, 
 it cannot be to any considerable extent ; and M c Culloch 
 held that almost all the lowering that has taken place in 
 the price of exportable commodities had little to do either 
 with wages or profits ; but was, in the main, the con- 
 sequence of improved processes of production. Senior, 
 however, maintained, as a general proposition, that the 
 real price of labour had fallen, that the difficulty of procuring 
 a certain quantity of gold for a certain portion of English 
 labour has increased, that more English labour is now given
 
 1834 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 257 
 
 ior the same quantity of gold, that every man found that 
 the remuneration for his exertions was somewhat less than 
 it was ; and he also held that the value of English labour 
 over foreign labour was less than it was. The foreign 
 labour had gained on the English labour it was more 
 efficient than it was. I doubt this, but believe that manu- 
 facturing processes by means of machinery constitute so 
 great a part of the price of commodities and labour so little, 
 that the improved processes on the Continent have brought 
 the value of the English and foreign commodities more 
 on a par. 
 
 April llth, 1834. I attended yesterday my Political Economy 
 Club. Mr. Chad wick, who with Senior drew up the Report 
 on the Poor Laws and also drew the Report on the Factory 
 Commission, was elected a member. We had M c Culloch 
 and Tooke and Torrens, Spring Rice, Parnell, Norman, 
 Pennington and John Romilly ; and Mr. Lyall, one of the 
 members for London, was in the Chair. Our strangers were 
 Prince Cimitilli, a Neapolitan nobleman ; Mr. Vale, the 
 Minister of the United States ; Mr. Strutt, Member for 
 Derby ; and Mr. Orde, Member for Newport. The question 
 discussed was as to the expediency of a compulsory rate 
 for the able-bodied poor, and under what regulations. 
 Mr. Chadwick opened the subject in the absence of Senior. 
 He considered that a choice must be made between a com- 
 pulsory rate founded on a law of settlement or open men- 
 dicity ; and he thought that it was incumbent on society 
 to secure its members from perishing under any circum- 
 stances from want. He admitted the abusive administra- 
 tion of the Poor Laws in England, and also that mendicity 
 was, to a great extent, co-existent here with a compulsory 
 rate ; but he nevertheless was in favour of a compulsory 
 rate, and believed that a more efficient police might put down 
 mendicity. I said that I wished we were in a situation to 
 make a choice, and to determine upon calm and deliberate 
 considerations the best system for the country. It was, 
 however, far otherwise ; but with reference to the con-
 
 258 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 elusions drawn by Mr. Chadwick, I differed from him alto- 
 gether, and thought that all experience shewed that when- 
 ever the compulsory system had been acted upon, it had 
 deteriorated the moral habits of the people, not only of the 
 poor, but of the ratepayers as well, but too plainly shewn 
 by the Report of the Commissioners on the Poor Laws. 
 I believed the evils and abuses in a great degree inseparable 
 from any system in which you substituted for the claims of 
 humanity, good neighbourhood and character, a man's right 
 to a share in the property and the industry of another man. 
 As an instance of the effect of the two systems I exhibited 
 the accounts of the Parish of Kinnordy in Forfarshire for 
 the years 1831, '32 and '33. The population is 7000, and 
 it has increased considerably since 1824, not less than by 
 1 200 inhabitants. There is some manufacturing industry, 
 and yet the money expended for the poor does not exceed 
 350 a year. Upon this several idiots and orphans are 
 maintained, and it is remarkable that there is in every 
 year's account an item of money returned by some of the 
 poor who have been assisted. In contrast with this state- 
 ment, I produced the account of my parish, Hampstead, 
 for 1832. Hampstead has about 8000 inhabitants, the rental 
 of the parish 35,000 a year ; whereas Kinnordy is only 
 8000 a year. The expenditure on the poor alone is 500 
 a year. The Poor Laws are administered by guardians 
 chosen from among lawyers and merchants in the place 
 and the better sort of trades-people. I also mentioned 
 the case of Mr. Kinloch's Will. Mr. Kinloch left 2500 a 
 year to the Scottish Hospital some years ago, to be dis- 
 tributed in pensions to poor Scotch soldiers and sailors ; 
 and 4500 claims were received, out of which number not 
 above 20 of the individuals were destitute, or in the state 
 of English paupers. Such are the effects of the two systems 
 on national character. With regard to mendicity, I thought 
 there was full as much mendicity in England as in France 
 and those parts of the country I was acquainted with ; 
 and it appeared to me that a very efficient Poor Law was 
 both very difficult in a country like this and very expensive.
 
 1834 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 259 
 
 Col. Torrens followed, and also M c Culloch on Mr. Chad- 
 wick's side. Torrens talked about allowing people to die 
 of want in a Christian country ; but Ireland, I observed, 
 was a Christian country, and had no compulsory Poor Rates, 
 and yet people did not die of want there. M c Culloch 
 laid stress on the great masses of manufacturing 
 population congregated in parts of England and Scotland, 
 and held that a compulsory rate was as to such places the 
 only means of safety in times of dearth and scarcity of 
 work. He also held that although the Poor Laws were not 
 in force in all parts of Scotland, it was the Law of the 
 Land as well as in England, and might at any time be en- 
 forced, so that the heritors in Scotland were bound to support 
 the poor, which is no doubt true, at the same time that 
 the putting the laws in force or not putting them in force 
 makes all the difference possible. Any county in Ireland 
 may be put under the operation of the Coercion Bill ; but 
 the putting it in force or not generates totally different 
 habits among the people. Spring Rice, Sir Henry Parnell 
 and Co well supported my own view of the question. Spring 
 Rice spoke with his usual talent and felicitous manner. 
 He thought that if it had not been for the evils of the Poor 
 Laws that education and knowledge and civilization would, 
 in a country like this, have secured the poor against most 
 of the contingencies incidental to humanity and occasional 
 want of work. Neither he nor Sir Henry Parnell had ever 
 heard of any one dying of want in Ireland, where the people, 
 although suffering, assist each other to the utmost. 
 
 May 1st, 1834. Political Economy Club. We had a large 
 meeting on this day. Besides the usual members, Mr. 
 Pryme and Mr. Jones, the first member for Cambridge 
 Town and the other Professor of Political Economy at the 
 King's College, Professor Pillans of Edinburgh, and our 
 new members, Mr. Morrison, Member for Ipswich, and Mr. 
 Chad wick were there. We discussed a question of Mr. 
 Pennington's : " Under what circumstances duties on 
 Foreign Productions fall on the consumer and under what
 
 260 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 circumstances they fall on the producer " ? And the 
 discussion afforded a specimen both of the modern manner 
 of treating subjects of Political Economy and of the fault 
 so common among our modern professors of not arriving 
 at distinct and practical conclusions ; or at least of taking 
 so circuitous and so mazy a road, as to leave most of their 
 readers entangled in the labyrinth. Mr. Pennington has 
 considerable powers of abstraction, and is a true disciple 
 of the analytical schools ; and he began by expressing 
 his fears for he is a very modest man that as the dis- 
 cussions of the society had of late turned much upon practical 
 subjects, he might be deemed a little tedious, and perhaps 
 not quite intelligible. This was not by any means the case. 
 He took for granted in the first place that profits were 
 generally so equalised by competition and local circum- 
 stances, in one and the same country, that if a tax were 
 laid on any article of home produce that was not the subject 
 of a monopoly, it must fall on the consumers, as the pro- 
 ducer would give up producing as soon as his profits fell 
 below the common level. He then observed that the same 
 rule did not apply to foreign producers, because the rate 
 of profit might be different in France or in Spain from what 
 it was in England, but that whenever the tax affected the 
 conditions of supply (Mr. Malthus said the money conditions 
 of supply) and made it impossible to produce the article 
 and pay the tax upon it consistently with such conditions, 
 namely, the customary rate of profits in the producing 
 country, carriage and other expenses, then the producer 
 would not bear the tax, which would necessarily fall on the 
 consumer ; but that when the article yielded to the pro- 
 ducers, as in the case of a monopoly or limited supply, 
 larger profits than the common rate of profits, then the 
 tax would fall on the producer. To this statement it was 
 objected : (i) that there seemed to be no proper distinction 
 between the case of a foreign and home commodity, as in 
 all cases it must pay the labour, profits of capital, etc., 
 necessary to produce it, whether at home or abroad ; 
 (2) that no general or accurate rule could be established
 
 1834 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 261 
 
 even in the case in question, because the quarter upon which 
 the tax would fall would depend on a great variety of cir- 
 cumstances. When a large proportion of fixed capital is 
 employed in the production of any article, the manufacturer 
 will for a long period forego a portion of the profits of that 
 part of his capital rather than give up his business. In the 
 case of the best French wines, Johannisberg or Tokay, and 
 articles of very limited supply, the monopolists will get 
 whatever price the rich consumers are willing to give ; 
 this is the case with regard to high priced wines, in respect 
 of which the producers might limit the supply or the con- 
 sumers might be able and willing to pay the tax. Again, 
 with regard to quicksilver, which is limited to a few mines, 
 and certain other metals, such as the Swedish steel iron, 
 and the finer leads, which are indispensable for other pro- 
 ductions, it may happen that the worker of gold and silver 
 mines, the workers in steel, and the artists who want fine 
 pencils, will give almost any price for the articles. But 
 independently of these natural monopolies, the economists 
 give the name of monopolies to all raw produce of the price 
 of which rent forms any considerable part ; so that wheat 
 and cotton and hemp and tallow and wool are monopolies ; 
 and with respect to all commodities in which raw produce 
 enters largely, it would seem according to the theory of 
 Mr. Pennington, Col. Torrens and others that the pro- 
 ducer would have to bear the tax in so far as the monopoly 
 part of his commodity is concerned, and that the consumer 
 would bear it in so far as labour and the profits of capital 
 are concerned. Anything more vague, more theoretical, 
 and less capable of useful application can hardly be con- 
 ceived ; and yet Mr. S. J. Loyd, who was in the Chair, 
 congratulated the meeting on the satisfactory result of the 
 discussion. 
 
 The King's College here, after obliging Senior to resign 
 his Chair of Political Economy because he had published a 
 pamphlet recommending a reform of the Irish Church and 
 a new appropriation of Irish tythes, have been disputing 
 for the last six months whether they should replace him
 
 262 Political Economy Club 1834 
 
 atTall. Sir Robert Inglis and several others stoutly main- 
 tained that no such science should be taught. They were, 
 however, obliged to give way, and Mr. Jones, a clergyman 
 in Kent, who has published some essays, has been appointed. 
 Even then Sir Robert Inglis wished that the word Political 
 Economy should be sunk, and Political Philosophy sub- 
 stituted ; but Jones said that if the latter title were adopted 
 he should feel himself at liberty to treat of Political Institu- 
 tions perhaps the ballot which so alarmed the Conserva- 
 tives that they gave way. This is all very miserable and 
 sadly mistaken and ill-timed. 
 
 July 3rd, 1834. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 to-day. We had all the great guns. The first question 
 related to tithes. All the economists of my time and Ricardo 
 at the head of them, held that the landlords were entitled 
 to protection in respect of tithes, land tax and all direct 
 charges on land. " Mais nous avons change tout cela." 
 As the times become more radical and the landlords and 
 agricultural interests lose ground, the economists shift 
 their quarters. Tooke and Senior and Torrens and Hume 
 held that the former doctrine was all wrong. Tithes are an 
 immemorial charge on the land. People have bought their 
 estates and inherited their land with that charge, the main- 
 tenance of the Church has always been laid on the land, 
 and the landowner having taken his land with that charge 
 upon it, has no claim to compensation. The Land-tax 
 the same ; he might as well claim compensation for mort- 
 gages and rentcharges. It was agreed on all hands that 
 tithes had nothing to do with the price of corn, and that 
 corn would be at the same price were there no tithes ; and 
 also, that taking in Scotland and glebe lands and lands not 
 tithable, about one-half of the land in Great Britain was 
 not subject to tithes. M c Culloch admitted that i/- or 1/6 
 a quarter would cover the tithes, but he contended that 
 as the landlord had for upwards of 400 years enjoyed 
 either a legal or a practical monopoly of corn, such unin- 
 terrupted usage was tantamount to a right and gave them
 
 1834 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 263 
 
 an undoubted claim to compensation. Mr. Woolrych 
 Whitmore, one of the greatest advocates of a free corn 
 trade in the H. of C., but who is a land holder, contended, 
 with M c Culloch, for some countervailing duties, and Coulson 
 justly observed, that without standing up for a " right " 
 for there were no other rights than law and usage he 
 thought that as the absolute repeal of the corn laws would 
 seriously affect rents and alter the relative situation in 
 society of a large and influential class of people, it would 
 be both unjust and unwise to press the question of right 
 so closely as gentlemen appeared to do ; in which opinion 
 I fully concurred, thinking it very reasonable. For all proper 
 reforms one ought to disturb as little as possible the enjoy- 
 ments which are sanctioned by law, and in a change made 
 for the benefit of the whole community, the interests of a 
 very large class should not be injured more than absolute 
 necessity requires. Mr. Hume of the Board of Trade, how- 
 ever, seemed disposed to make very short work of Land- 
 lords. He talked of the origin of landed property, the 
 arbitrary nature of it, the monopoly and Legislative power 
 of Landlords. Mr. Tooke mentioned a remarkable error of 
 Mr. Pitt's, who, when estimating the probable amount of 
 property tax, took the tithes at five millions. Mr. Becke, 
 on that occasion, wrote an excellent pamphlet, by which 
 he showed they were not worth three. They were afterwards 
 set down at 2 millions three hundred thousand pounds. 
 The number of acres then in cultivation was so variously 
 estimated that by some it was taken at 46 millions, by 
 others at 30. Mr. Pitt took it at 40 at 12/6 per acre. 
 
 Feb. 6th, 1835. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 yesterday for the first time this season. I am a little weary 
 of it. We are getting too ingenious and too radical. Tooke 
 and Torrens and Senior were all there, and also Blake, 
 Morrison, Norman, Larpent, Chadwick, William Hume and 
 others. I sat by Mr. Morrison, a man who had acquired a 
 large fortune in one of those great ready money establish- 
 ments in London where everything is sold. He is yet a
 
 264 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 young man, has travelled with his eyes open, has good sense, 
 information, and seconded the Address as Member for 
 Ipswich, in the opening of the first session of the reformed 
 Parliament. The conversation being general during dinner, 
 he talked politics with Torrens, and taking it for granted 
 that all around were as staunch reformers as himself, he 
 spoke with undisguised enmity of the present administra- 
 tion, and gave them but a short thread of existence to run. 
 He and Torrens thought that Peel would be deserted by his 
 party, but what is the party without Peel ? We discussed 
 two questions which had been suggested by Malthus at 
 the last meeting he attended in December, the one was 
 whether it would be advantageous that the great land- 
 owners and great stockholders should devote the greater 
 part of their incomes to productive industry and whether in 
 ordinary circumstances, and in the absence of disturbing 
 causes, population in a given country is more likely to in- 
 crease than subsistence or subsistence than population . Senior 
 maintained the affirmative of the first proposition, the other 
 side was maintained by M c Culloch. It was admitted on all 
 sides that the application of the revenues of wealthy men 
 to fixed capital such as roads, canals, railways, piers, mills, 
 was advantageous and desirable, but M c Culloch maintained 
 that the withdrawing of such revenues from objects of mere 
 splendour and luxury would destroy one of the great incen- 
 tives to industry and powerful intellectual exertions, and 
 that many a fortune originated in the desire of living like 
 the great of the land. Norman, on the other hand, thought 
 that the habits of economy and frugality incidental to a 
 Dutch state of society were preferable and more conducive 
 to the welfare and happiness of the community, and I agreed 
 with him ; at the same time thinking it was very much a 
 question of degree. The Dutch, being very much limited 
 as to land, cannot indulge, like our great landowners, in the 
 luxury of parks and sporting and horses there are also 
 certain luxuries, which in narrower communities and even 
 in the United States, might be viewed with jealousy and 
 disapprobation as savouring too much of distinctions of
 
 1835 From Mr. J . L. Mallet's Diaries 265 
 
 rank and exclusiveness, so that there is no absolute rule. 
 But no one can doubt that in a country such as Ireland, 
 where a vast population is but half employed and half fed 
 and which abounds in fine sea-coasts and watercourses as 
 well as excellent land, the great landowners would much 
 benefit themselves as well as the community in the making 
 of roads, bridges, harbours, and so forth. This is however all 
 fixed capital, and falls short of Senior's views, which went 
 to their turning manufacturers of commodities or producers 
 of food, and who estimated the amount of the revenue which 
 might be turned into such productive channels at 20 millions 
 a year. After all it would be to a certain extent but a change 
 of industry, the raising of oats on poor land or the producing 
 cotton yarn instead of employing coachmakers, milliners and 
 artists. Torrens was against it on another ground. He held 
 that it was a fallacy, and that unless these wealthy people 
 could add to the stock of subsistence and raw material, 
 they could not employ their revenues in the way 
 contemplated, for no new production could take place 
 unless preceded by an increase of food and raw material 
 from which Labour could be maintained and employed. 
 This was a little too deep for most of us. The question was, 
 in my opinion, very imperfectly argued, and the next still 
 more so. I ought to have added that a great instance of the 
 employment of a large landed income was quoted in the 
 case of the late Duke of Bridgewater, but his investment 
 was all in fixed capital. The next question was really a 
 question as to the value and truth of the Principles of the 
 Essay on Population, and the whole artillery of the Club 
 was, strange to say, directed against it. Far from popula- 
 tion having a tendency to increase faster than subsistence, 
 Senior and Tooke held that there were facts enough to 
 prove that the reverse was the case, and as to M c Culloch, 
 who is always bitter against Malthus, the workings of an 
 envious and mean disposition, he held that there was in 
 human nature a principle of improvement and exertion 
 that was at all times sufficient to counteract and overcome 
 the principle of population, and therefore that Malthus'
 
 266 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 theory was altogether erroneous, or as he expressed it in his 
 own happy language, false. Torrens likewise attacked the 
 principle of the Essay, and said that if it were correct, 
 no savage nations could have escaped from their barbarous 
 state and no more they do. There is no instance of any 
 purely savage and insulated tribe or nation becoming 
 civilised. This has been shown by Whateley and other 
 writers. I held that the increase of capital and subsistence 
 and of improvements in the moral and social condition of 
 society were dependent on good government, peace, industry ; 
 all which were more or less of accidents ; whereas the 
 principle of procreation was of constant and universal 
 operation. It also appeared to me that the improvements 
 in civilisation and morals, which Mr. Tooke considered as 
 having the effect of counteracting the principle, were inti- 
 mately connected with some of the very checks upon the 
 importance of which Mr. Malthus laid so much stress ; the 
 regard to consequences, the respect for character, the dread 
 of losing station. 
 
 March, 1835. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 last Thursday. We had M c Culloch and Tooke and Torrens 
 and Blake, Larpent, Norman, John Romilly, Coulson, 
 Chadwick, Secretary to the Poor Law commission, Bingham 
 Baring and Mr. James Hume, Sec. to the Board of Trade, 
 whose question, " Whether there ought to be a legal pro- 
 vision for the destitute whenever there is exclusive property 
 in land," was discussed. Mr. Hume is a man of sense and 
 talent ; and who disavows any opinions in common with 
 the Schools of Godwin or Owen, but whose abhorrence of 
 the aristocracy and landlords and monopolisers of property 
 often brings him on the confines of those wild regions. He 
 is a strenuous advocate for a free trade in corn, and has 
 written an able disquisition on the subject. Nothing short 
 of his antipathy for the landlords could have made him 
 frame his question in its present shape ; for in whatever 
 society property is recognised and protected, there is ex- 
 clusive property in land as there is exclusive property in
 
 1835 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 267 
 
 houses, in corn, oil, wine, cloth or any other investments. 
 But although I should hardly think that any of the men 
 assembled round the table would entertain so absurd a 
 proposition as it was put, Larpent and Norman were the 
 only persons who pointed out its fallacy, and all the rest 
 of the party treated the question with reference to the state 
 of Ireland ; in fact, " Whether the English Poor Laws 
 should be established in Ireland ? " and such is the feeling 
 of England with regard to the Poor Laws, that with a few 
 exceptions they were nearly all favourable to the fearful 
 experiment Chadwick, as on a former occasion, held that 
 choose we must between vagrancy and a poor rate, and that 
 the clothing and food and money collected in Ireland by 
 vagrants would almost maintain workhouses. This must 
 be an exaggeration, besides that, it is not what is actually 
 given but the principle which is in question. Has one man 
 a natural right to the produce of another man's labour ? 
 As Larpent justly observed, the question resolves itself 
 into expediency. You have no more right to fasten the 
 burden on land than on any other property ; but land is 
 more comeatable than other property, and hence it is that 
 the poor-rate is laid upon land and houses. M c Culloch 
 went into a history of the iniquities of the Irish landlords 
 the 40/ freeholds and so forth, and cared not what became 
 of them. He was, as I told him, for legislating on a prin- 
 ciple of revenge and retaliation. Whether he is naturally 
 a harsh man I know not, but he gives me the notion of a 
 man who would always cut the Gordian knot at whatever 
 expense of suffering to whatever part of the community. 
 Chadwick said that living in workhouses was extremely 
 irksome to the poor, and particularly to the Irish, who loved 
 rambling and quarrelling and drinking whisky, and would 
 prefer even labour to the regularity and confinement of the 
 workhouse. But labour is not to be had, and as to building 
 workhouses for all the half employed Irish population, it 
 would require an outlay of millions. Systematic emigration 
 and a rate for that purpose would, after all, be the best 
 thing.
 
 268 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 April, 1835. I was glad on Thursday last at my Political 
 Economy Club to find myself accidentally seated between 
 two guests and strangers, whose names I did not know, 
 and with whom I could remain silent ; for the generality 
 of the members are so radical and so violent in their politics, 
 and withal so elated just at present at the prospect of the 
 triumph over Peel and the turning out of the present adminis- 
 tration, that I was glad to be spared conversation with them. 
 We had Sir Henry Parnell, Torrens, Tooke, M c Culloch, 
 Senior, Coulson, Mr. J. D. Hume of the Board of Trade, 
 Morrison, late Member for Ipswich, Pryme, Member for 
 Cambridge, Blake, Loyd, Pennington. The question dis- 
 cussed was Mr. Loyd's the only son of Loyd the Banker, 
 probably the greatest moneyed man in London a clever, 
 hard, disagreeable man, but who has, beyond any other 
 member of the Club, the talent of stating a question dis- 
 tinctly and of discussing it with method and clearness. 
 Tooke, who has probably the greatest stock of information 
 and the soundest opinions, is diffuse, hesitatingly drawling 
 in the greatest degree. Torrens is subtle, often obscure 
 and not unfrequently wrong, but fluent enough and gener- 
 ally able to explain the principle on which his opinions 
 are founded : he is always courteous in discussion, which 
 is not a very common quality among these great men. 
 
 M c Culloch is a rough genius, original but often running 
 into paradox, yet always clear, always practical and Scotch 
 in the character of his understanding as well as in his accents. 
 His sallies and exaggerations and astounding and often 
 coarse and sarcastic expressions keep our drowsy members 
 alive when saturated with tavern fare. Senior has some- 
 thing supercilious in his manner, but he is nevertheless 
 an agreeable man social in his habits and eating and drink- 
 ing like a man who comes to table exhausted by labour, 
 and indulging too much in these respects, considering his 
 delicate health. His chest is in fault, and hence the weak- 
 ness and shrill tone of his voice which has yet something 
 pleasing. His eye is peculiarly intelligent and agreeable, 
 but he has no power of speaking and always states his
 
 1835 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 269 
 
 opinions with great brevity. And yet so good a writer 
 cannot want material for speaking and certainly not clear- 
 ness of mind. He is up to all the windings and doublings 
 of Political Economy, and sees at once all the bearings of 
 a question an undoubtedly clever man. Pennington is a 
 man who will go on in the same monotonous tone through 
 all the mazes of the most elaborate and complicated argu- 
 ment. He is more like Babbage's machine for working out 
 logarithms than anything else I know, incapable of any 
 mistake in the connection and proper series of his ideas, 
 but impossible to follow unless you could put your under- 
 standing in the same box. Coulson, the Editor of the 
 " Globe," is a hard headed, stern looking man of a clear 
 understanding and undoubted capacity, but awkward and 
 rough-mannered. Loyd's question related to the old 
 Bullion question. It raised a doubt whether the difference 
 between the Mint and Market price of gold which prevailed 
 beween 1809 and 1815 was an undoubted proof of the 
 depreciation of the currency and the proper measure of it. 
 His case was this that the commercial restriction which 
 resulted from the Milan Decrees cramped and impeded the 
 usual commercial relations of this country with the continent, 
 and that the demand for gold and fall of the Exchanges 
 which were consequent on the subsidies and military expendi- 
 ture of the Country abroad could not be counteracted, as 
 usual, by a demand for goods however low in prices, because 
 goods could not obtain admittance in any continental port. 
 Mr. Hume supported this view of the case by some curious 
 facts, extracted from the Custom House Registers, showing 
 that the exports had fallen immensely in 1811 and 1812, 
 not above half what they were in 1815 and 1816, and that 
 there were enormous accumulations of colonial produce 
 without any vent. Such was the value of a cargo of pro- 
 hibited goods that, when Buonaparte intended to make a 
 handsome present to one of his Generals or Court favourites, 
 he gave them a licence for a ship's cargo. And Mr. Hume 
 said he had known an instance of 50,000 being given for 
 one of these licences. Mr. Hume made some pointed
 
 270 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 remarks on the disregard of facts shown by Ricardo and 
 Mill and other economists, who held, in the statement of 
 their theoretical opinions respecting the depreciation of the 
 currency, that goods invariably rise in nominal price with 
 the fall in the value of the currency ; and yet the fact is 
 notoriously otherwise in respect of colonial and some other 
 classes of commodities during the period alluded to. Malthus, 
 who was less dogmatical, was on the contrary right. 
 
 May 8th, 1835. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 yesterday. It was a thin meeting, and Senior's absence 
 precluded the discussion of the two best questions on the 
 paper. The first question discussed was a question of 
 Torrens, which was unanimously voted to turn upon an 
 impossible case. He claimed the right to discuss any 
 abstract proposition with a view to the establishing a prin- 
 ciple, but it was overruled in the present case which did not 
 go to establish but to disturb a principle, that of Free Trade 
 upon grounds altogether hypothetical. The next question 
 was Tooke's, as to the expediency of applying all surplus 
 revenue to the reduction of taxation instead of maintaining 
 a Sinking Fund of 5 millions. M c Culloch gave us an episode 
 in his own peculiar and paradoxical manner, maintaining 
 that wars had always been a source of increased wealth to 
 this country. He held the debt to be a mere transference 
 of income from one pocket to another and made very light 
 of it as did most of the speakers, never considering the 
 incidental and auxiliary evils attending taxation public 
 establishments kept at a great expense, patronage, corrup- 
 tion, mismanagement, restrictive laws, smuggling, illicit 
 distillation, the fear, in times of difficulty, of a breach of 
 faith with the public creditor, the unpopularity attending 
 a heavy taxation, the outcry and clamour it excites, 
 the handle it gives to demagogues and declaimers all 
 this goes for nothing with economists who merely look 
 to the principle of diverting the income of a part of the 
 community to another part of the community, and see 
 no harm in it it being also kept in mind, that being most
 
 1835 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 271 
 
 of them men of business, they see a great advantage in this 
 species of security for very many purposes, which is un- 
 doubtedly the case. But to return to M c Culloch he held 
 that the pressure of taxation was the greatest of all in- 
 centives to industry, and during a war, when taxes come 
 pelting in, it stimulates the industrious man to greater 
 and greater exertions ; so that 20 years of war were more 
 likely, according to his view, to benefit the country and add 
 to its wealth, than 20 years of peace. 
 
 I ventured to ask him what was his limit, but only got a 
 surly rebuke and an allusion to my being a placeman. So 
 much for sense and manners. The great majority of the 
 Club were unfavourable to any Sinking Fund, but I am not 
 at all clear whether in a country with so large an expenditure 
 and with fluctuating branches of industry, it may not be 
 desirable to have a surplus of taxation, either in the way 
 of a Sinking fund or otherwise, tho' not too large an amount, 
 to meet any temporary falling off of the Revenue. Sir 
 Francis Burdett was one of our visitors. I sat by him, 
 and was pleased by his vivacity and directness of under- 
 standing. He is now 65, and an active, hale man. I have 
 always considered him as a very bad economist, and as 
 having very bad opinions on such subjects. We had a 
 little of politics during dinner, and he appeared to me to be 
 very moderate and to have greatly modified his old opinions. 
 By a rule of the Club a Cabinet Minister makes a vacancy 
 and remains an Hon. Member ; but on consulting Tooke 
 and Larpent, who constitute, with myself, the Managing 
 Committee, we thought that under the present circum- 
 stances of the administration and the doubts generally 
 entertained of its permanency, it was better not to declare 
 vacancies as to Spring Rice and Thompson. I let Sir Francis 
 Burdett into the secret, and he was much amused with our 
 political caution. 
 
 June 5th. I attended my Political Economy Club 
 yesterday. We had again the question of the expediency 
 of a sinking fund as if the thing had not been tried and had
 
 272 Political Economy Club 1835 
 
 not failed. It is true that Tooke's reasoning went to the 
 expediency of having established a sinking fund of 5 millions 
 in 1819 instead of taking off various taxes, such as the part 
 of the malt tax and the salt tax, which were of no disservice 
 to the country. In that case, as he said, we should now 
 have 10 millions a year to give up at the present time which 
 we might apply to the injurious taxes, such as the tax on 
 glass. He observed that 41 millions of annual taxation 
 had been taken off since 1815, which seems enormous. 
 But he had not, I think, sufficiently considered the greater 
 ability of the people to pay the present amount of taxation 
 without inconvenience, which has been the result of the 
 ease they have received from diminished burdens and of 
 more rapid accumulation of capital. Sir Henry Parnell 
 justly pointed out that in 1822 when the sinking fund was 
 given up on the recommendation of a committee of which 
 he was chairman, and indeed of his casting vote, the surplus 
 revenue did not amount to 2 millions. Then it is impossible 
 to form a correct opinion on such a subject without reference 
 to political considerations and public opinion and the situa- 
 tion of the government. 
 
 April 4th, 1836. We dined at Mr. Thomas Baring's, a 
 splendid dinner of 20. Lord and Lady Radstock, Lord 
 Teignmouth and Miss Shore, Charles Lefevre, Member for 
 Hampshire, and Mrs. Lefevre, Baring Wall, Labouchere, 
 Th. Baring, Mr. and Mrs. Short on the whole an agreeable 
 party although too numerous. Le Marchant, whom I had not 
 seen since his appointment to the Board of Trade (Secretary) 
 was there, and I told him that he must become a Member 
 of the Political Economy Club. They all laughed and began 
 quizzing me about the Club, but I said I had retired, which 
 seemed to astonish my friends. I am sure I know not why ; 
 for I never was much of a holder forth on such subjects. 
 I am of that order of imperfect intellect, so happily described 
 by Charles Lamb in his chapters on " Sympathies," which 
 is essentially " Anti-Caledonian " a mind rather suggestive 
 than comprehensive. Not much clearness or precision of idea
 
 1836 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 273 
 
 or expression. " My intellectual wardrobe has few whole 
 pieces in it." I am content as Elia, with fragments and 
 scattered pieces of truth hints and glimpses at things. 
 I seldom wait to mature a proposition but bring it to market, 
 as he says, in the green ear. My friends of the Political 
 Economy Club, on the contrary, are the Caledonians ; their 
 minds are never caught in undress or by glimpses ; their 
 stocks of ideas are in perfect order and completeness. " You 
 cannot cry halves to anything they find." " Between the 
 affirmative and negative there is no border land with 
 them." Their conversation is a book. Such is the character 
 of the Members of my Club, with whom I never had but a 
 very imperfect sympathy and to whom a man of my order 
 of intellect is seldom welcome or intelligible. I hardly 
 know therefore how I stayed among them some twelve years. 
 I was originally attracted by the charm of the personal 
 characters of Malthus and Ricardo, and when they were 
 both gone I felt I had no abiding interest there. 
 
 May 15th, 1837. I find my friends of the Political Economy 
 Club are as dogmatical and presumptuous as ever. Homer, 
 who is Inspector of Factories in the great manufacturing 
 districts of Lancashire and Yorkshire, being now in London, 
 was invited by T. Tooke to dine at [the Club] last Thursday, 
 the question of the Factory Bill being to be discussed that 
 day. It is well to premise that Lord Lansdowne, wishing 
 his son, Lord Shelburne, to acquire some knowledge of the 
 manufacturing industry of this country, had sent him to 
 Manchester during the Easter Holidays under the charge of 
 Senior and Samuel Loyd to instruct him in the mysteries 
 of cotton twist ; and the question propounded at the Club 
 was to enable these gentlemen to state the result of their 
 enquiries so far as related to the operation of the Factory 
 Bill. Loyd was in the Chair, Lord Lansdowne on his right, 
 and Senior opened the discussion. He began by showing, 
 by a minute analysis of the component parts of the cost 
 of manufactured cottons, that any disadvantage, of which 
 he held the Factory Bill to be one, would absorb the profits
 
 274 Political Economy Club 1837 
 
 of the manufacturers or at least a large portion of them. 
 He explained that the proportion of fixed to circulating 
 capital was as 4 to i, so that 4/5 of the manufacturers' 
 capital was absorbed in machinery and buildings ; that 
 eight hours of the manual labour of the workmen went to 
 replace the wear and tear and interest of such fixed capital, 
 one hour more to replace the interest on the circulating 
 capital and the tenth hour only constituted the profit ; so 
 that what with fluctuation of trade and the prices of the 
 raw material, a ten hours Bill, which the workmen are 
 seeking to obtain, would at the same rate of wages, paralyse 
 manufacturing industry. There may be some approxima- 
 tion to truth in these statements, furnished to Senior by 
 Mr. Samuel Grigg of Quarry Bank, but I take it that the 
 proportions above stated between the amount of fixed 
 and circulating capital, and the operations of labour which 
 will replace interest on capital, wear and tear, wages and 
 profits, must greatly vary according to circumstances, and 
 that the attempt to define them with such a degree of 
 accuracy and minuteness is part of the coxcombry of the 
 Political Economists. I will answer for it that the manu- 
 factory at Quarry Bank with its schools, baths, playgrounds, 
 beautiful cottages, is carried on at one third more expense 
 than a common establishment. Besides that, Mr. Senior 
 proves too much, for, according to his statement, there 
 would be no accumulation of capital in Lancashire, whereas 
 everything proves the reverse. Then Senior went on to 
 state, in the most authoritative manner, and with the 
 entire concurrence of Loyd, that the Factory Bill was alto- 
 gether mischievous and that the attempt to work young 
 children by relays had signally failed and this in the 
 presence of Homer and without any appeal or reference to 
 him. The discussion went on, chiefly on the same side, 
 until Chadwick called upon Horner to state his opinions, 
 when he showed by undeniable facts, that Mr. Kirkman 
 Finlay and several other of the largest manufacturers of 
 Glasgow and also several hundred manufactories in Lanca- 
 shire and Yorkshire had established and were following
 
 1837 From Mr. J. L. Mallet's Diaries 275 
 
 up the humane system of relays, not only without difficulty 
 but without inconvenience or injury to their interests, and 
 that it was gradually gaining ground in his whole district. 
 He also showed by the clearest evidence the fallacy of some 
 other of Senior's statements, taken up at second hand 
 from interested manufacturers ; but although many of 
 the persons present expressed to Horner their entire satis- 
 faction with the evidence he had brought forward, Senior 
 and Loyd remained unconvinced ; and as they have the ear 
 of the Government, their opinions will, so far as Parliament 
 will permit, be acted upon. Much to Senior's credit, although 
 he seemed to pay little attention at the Club to Homer's 
 objections and statements, he afterwards requested Horner 
 to put them in writing in the shape of a letter which he 
 printed with his pamphlet on the Factory Bill, and he there 
 spoke of Homer's opinion and of his services in a very 
 suitable manner.
 
 FROM MR. J. L. PREVOST'S DIARIES 
 
 5 Mai 1838. M c Culloch a remarque que Tor et 1'argent 
 paraissent diminuer constamment de valeur et qu'avec les 
 masses qui s'en produisent en Russie et en Asie et les 
 quantites qu'en fournisse I'Amerique a mesure que la paix s'y 
 retablira on peut s'attendre a une depreciation assez rapide. 
 Sur 1'impossibilite alleguee par Senior et M c Culloch d' avoir 
 a la fois les deux metaux pour monnaies Pryme a rappele 
 que tous deux avaient cours legal anciennement et qu'entre 
 autres de 1774 a la suspension de la banque les shillings 
 d'argent quelqu'uses qu'ils fussent pouvaient tre payes 
 jusqu'a concurrence de 25. Au dela on pouvait exiger de 
 les prendre au poids. 
 
 Chadwick a ensuite developpe une question non encore 
 imprimee sur la loi des droits d'auteur, qui se discute a pre- 
 sent. On veut (Talfourd) etendre a 60 ans apres la mort 
 de 1'auteur ce droit qui n'existe que pour 28 ans. Pryme a 
 dit quelques mots en faveur des lecteurs. Pour moi je trouve 
 que de tous les metiers celui qui merite ou exige le moins 
 d'etre encourag par un pareil monopole est celui d'auteur. 
 La piraterie est toujours la, et la pensee une fois publiee 
 ne devrait pas tre une propnt. L'avidit6 des auteurs 
 et des libraires, en tenant les livres a prix trop eleves, 
 empche leur circulation et la peine en retombe sur les 
 monopoleurs. 
 
 7 F^vrier 1839. Au Club d'economie politique aujour- 
 d'hui il y avait 36 personnes, partant beaucoup plus d'^- 
 trangers que n'en comporte le r%lement. Quatre ministres 
 ^talent presents : Spring Rice et P. Thomson qui sont 
 
 276
 
 1839 From Mr. J . L. Prevost's Diaries 277 
 
 membres, Lords Lansdowne et Howick qui ne le sont pas 
 que je sache.* R. Greg et Mr. Ashworth ont tous les deux 
 parle longuement. La question ouverte par Tooke etait 
 " A quel point est-il probable que la concurrence etrangere 
 nuira au progres de 1'industrie manufacturiere dans ce 
 pays ? " Tooke a fait valoir les avantages de la position 
 et du climat de 1'Angleterre, de ses mines de fer et de char- 
 bon &c. Mais ces avantages sont diminues par le systeme 
 mercantile d'autres pays et encore plus par les reglements 
 fiscaux et protecteurs de 1'Angleterre meme. Les droits 
 nuisent a 1'extension des verreries. Les lois sur les bles 
 n'ont pas mme 1'excuse du fisc. Au reste elles n'ont pas 
 eu d'effet immediat sur les salaires. En resume il croit 
 impossible, a moins de nouvelles restrictions, que I'Angleterre 
 ne conserve pas longtemps sa preponderance. M c Culloch 
 dans le meme sens a rencheri sur 1'insignifiance des fabriques 
 Suisses et Rhenanes et cite des faits egrenes sur 1'augmenta- 
 tion des exportations de produits de fabriques Anglaises, 
 se moquant des fabricants de Manchester qui parlent de 
 transporter leur industrie ailleurs. Greg a repondu fort 
 adroitement qu'il ne disait point que les fabriques Anglaises 
 fussent ruinees mais qu'il voit Eschez [Zurich] avoir des 
 ordres pour 500,000 de machines, que les societes en com- 
 mandite se forment de tous cotes, que les cours d'eau se 
 trouvent aisement a 3 par cheval sur le continent et coutent 
 12 en Lancashire, que son frere a vu recemment les fabriques 
 du continent, a trouve les machines aussi bonnes, faisant 
 plus d'ouvrage qu'a Manchester, les salaires a moitie prix, 
 que chaque jour de nouveaux marches sont fermes aux 
 Anglais par la concurrence etrangere, que la Suisse con- 
 somme 60,000 p. de coton dont elle exporte les 3/4, qu'on 
 offre a Londres a 14/6 des calicos imprimes de Chemnitz 
 qu'on vend iy/- a Manchester. 
 
 Morrison a observe ensuite que ces calicos de Chemnitz 
 sont faits de files Anglais et que les ouvriers y sont miserables. 
 
 Ashworth assez btement s'est mis en avant pour 
 dire que les quantites croissantes d' exportations sont en 
 
 * [Both peers were members at this time. H. H.]
 
 278 Political Economy Club 1839 
 
 marchandises inferieures, en files ou la main d'ceuvre est 
 2d. p. ft>. &c. 
 
 Loyd a ete de 1'avis de Tooke et M c Culloch et fait voir 
 que quelques faits egrenes ne peuvent donner raison aux 
 fabricants. 
 
 Porter a montre des has 30% moins chers a Chemnitz 
 qu'a Nottingham et parle de la coutellerie et des machines 
 Suisses. 
 
 Tous ont ete contre la loi actuelle des bles. 
 
 18 Fgvrier. Le Club s'est assemble de nouveau pour 
 discuter s'il y avait raison sumsante pour un droit sur le 
 ble. L'opinion generate a ete que non. Tooke voulait 
 conserver I/'-, M c Culloch voudrait 5/- a 6/- au dessous de 
 6o/-, puis rien. II se base sur les taxes de la dreche et du 
 houblon et la prohibition du tabac qui pesent sur 1'agricul- 
 ture. 
 
 2 Avril 1840. Mr. J. L. Prevost who should have opened 
 the discussion was absent owing to his mother's death. 
 
 4 Juin. Au Club d'economie politique d'ou je viens Tooke 
 a expose un peu longuement mais clairement le systeme 
 etabli par la banque des Etats-Unis, et il a enonce 1'opinion 
 que la " specie circular " du u Juin 1836, qui exigeait le 
 paiement en especes des terres achetees de la confederation 
 etait une mesure sage et utile. Cowell qui etait la pour la 
 i re fois depuis longtemps et qui a ete en Amerique pour la 
 banque, sans nier la conclusion de Tooke, a dit que 1'en- 
 semble des mesures de Jackson contre la banque des Etats- 
 Unis avait e"te injudicieux et avait, selon lui, fait plus de 
 mal que de bien. 
 
 2 Juillet. Au Club d'economie politique ce soir, il n'y 
 avait que n membres et point d'etrangers. La question 
 de Mr. Graham, que ne sait pas parler, etait que 1'opinion 
 que les prix dependent de la quantite d'argent circulant, 
 y compris les billets de banque, etait erronee.
 
 1840 From Mr. J. L. Prevost's Diaries 279 
 
 Mill et Tooke 1'ont soutenu centre M c Culloch et Larpent. 
 Je n'ai rien dit, et j'ai bien fait, car je n'avais pas present 
 les arguments relatifs a cette question et j'aurais pris le 
 parti de Larpent centre Graham sans savoir repondre aux 
 faits de Tooke. 
 
 4 Fevrier 1841. Aujourd'hui au Club d'economie poli- 
 tique, Torrens a developpe sa question si la banque d'Angle- 
 terre peut se tenir a la regie de laisser fluctuer ses billets 
 d'apres Tor quand les banques de province ne s'y tenaient 
 pas. II croit que c'est difficile et il conclut a donner a la 
 banque le privilege exclusif d' emission ou a chercher a 
 astreindre les autres banques a la regie ou a une emission 
 fixe, leur pouvoir etant devenu trop grand pour permettre 
 de les priver de faire des billets. II a ete soutenu par Loyd 
 et Norman et combattu par Tooke qui pretend que les 
 billets remplacent les lettres de changes, cheques ou autres 
 formes de credit et qu'il ne depend pas d'une banque de 
 moderer ses emissions. Mill a soutenu Tooke sans pretendre 
 avoir lui-meme de connaissances a ce sujet. Pennington 
 a ete avec Torrens et je ne peux pas plus comprendre qu'eux 
 ce que veut dire Tooke. Ce dernier a parle deux fois tres 
 longuement. 
 
 4 Mars. Seance du Club d'Ec. Politique W. Blake Senior, 
 president, moi vice president ou etaient Van de Weyer, B. 
 Baring, C. Buller et quelques autres qui ne viennent que rare- 
 ment. La question etait la definition de demand que j'avais vu 
 discuter le 2 fevrier et le 5 avril 1824. Mill 1'a developpee 
 mais sans sa precision habituelle. II a propose la definition 
 " Quantity which there is power and will to purchase," 
 mais en termes que je crois moins clairs que ceux-ci. M c Cul- 
 loch et Torrens ont ete centre lui. C. Buller a montre tres 
 adroitement que ce mot est relatif a supply et que supply 
 etant certainement une quantite, demand doit aussi e"tre 
 une quantite : qu'ainsi on peut dire qu'il y a un supply 
 de 120 pommes et un demand de seulement 100, a un moment 
 <lonne, a un prix donne, sur un marche donne.
 
 280 Political Economy Club 1841 
 
 Ces discussions ou les discours sont courts m'amusent 
 mieux que les longues oraisons de quelques membres du club 
 en developpant des questions qui semblent plus pratiques. 
 
 2 D^c. Pol. Econ. Club. Seance interessante Question 
 de Chadwick sur une assertion supposee * de A. Smith (qu'il 
 n'a point faite ni rien de pareil) que la division du travail 
 entraine le sacrifice des vertus intellectuelles, sociales et 
 militaires des ouvriers. Chadwick a dit que ce n'est point 
 le cas. Sydney Smith qui ne brille nullement en pareilles 
 discussions (elu 1'an passe) f a defendu faiblement les ouvriers 
 agricoles. Loyd sachant sans doute son A. Smith a regrette 
 qu'on n'eut pas le passage sur lequel on discutait. Merivale 
 a exprime quelques doutes sur le degre de division du 
 travail. Loydaussi. Norman a soutenu Chadwick. M c Culloch 
 a ete de la derniere absurdite, pretendant que 1'education 
 donnee aux ouvriers les encourageaient a la revolte et qu'ils 
 n'avaient aucune chance de s'avancer. Lord Monteagle a 
 tres bien re"pondu et soutenu Chadwick. 
 
 3 Mars 1842. Pol. Econ. Club. Whitmore sur la ques- 
 tion " Quel serait le prix moyen du ble dans ce pays sous 
 1'abolition des lois des cereales et 1'adoption de la liberte 
 entiere du commerce ? " II a fait remarquer longuement 
 que la question est trop etendue et il ne s'est occupe qu'a 
 prouver que le prix du ble ne baisserait pas, que peut- 
 tre il hausserait parceque les agriculteurs (comme il 1'a deja 
 fait), convertiraient beaucoup de leurs terres en pres ou y 
 feraient une rotation de 5 au lieu de 4 ans, que le prix moyen 
 du ble depuis longtemps a Rotterdam et dans la Baltique est 
 au moins a 50/- le quarter. Cependant il est contre 1'aboli- 
 tion de le loi. M c Culloch et Lord Congleton 1'ont soutenu 
 pour les prix. Tooke a repondu qu'on obtiendrait des 
 quantite*s croissantes a 4O/- ou 45/- ici de Dantzig. M c Culloch 
 a replique avec mepris sur 1'Amerique dont les exportations 
 
 * [The passage (correctly quoted in Chadwick's question but 
 with insufficient context) is in Book V. Chap. I .Wealth of 
 Nations, vol. ii, p. 267. Cannan's edition. H. H.] 
 
 f [He was elected in the same year, 6 May, 1841. H. H.]
 
 1842 From Mr. J '. L. Prevost's Diaries 281 
 
 de ble sont beaucoup plus faibles de 1831 a 1840 que de 
 1791 a 1800. Hubbard dont le pamphlet en faveur d'un 
 droit fixe de io/- a fait grand bruit a explique en deux 
 mots qu'il estime a 37/- le prix a Dantzig auquel on peut 
 avoir i ou 2 millions de quarters. II calcule les frais a io/- et 
 le prix moyen ici etant 57/- il croit que io/- de droit lais- 
 seraient les choses ou elles sont et que la libre entree sans 
 droit mettrait le prix a 52/- ou 53/-. Norman a soutenu 
 Tooke appuyant sur 1'economie de frais qui resulte d'un 
 commerce regulier et 1' augmentation de production qu'un 
 debouche permanent procure. Tooke a donne I'exemple du 
 coton qu'on disait en 1815 ne pouvoir produire pour moins 
 de 15 d. et qui a la suite d'une demande toujours croissante 
 est a 5d. Loyd a resume adroitement la difficulte de la 
 question puisqu'on ne s'entend pas me'me sur le fait du 
 prix moyen passe sur les principaux marches et il a soutenu 
 Tooke et Norman. 
 
 Porter avait la une table curieuse. Dans les periodes 
 
 Population moyenne Ble importations Nourris de ble 
 
 Grande Bretagne. annuelles. etranger par 10,000. 
 
 1802/11 11,769 m. 398 m. qrs. 411 
 
 1812/21 13,018 m. 444 m. 503 
 
 1822/31 15,167 m. 684 m. 724 
 
 1832/41 17,400 m. 1040 in. 910 
 
 supposant i quarter par tete par an. 
 
 Whitmore avait dit que le prix moyen 1785/94 fut 50/1 1 
 (de 42/2 a 56/-) de 1795 a 1804 serie de tres mauvaises 
 recoltes. 
 
 Senior a cite Jersey qui a pleine liberte, importe tout 
 son ble, et qui depuis 21 ans off re la moyenne de prix de 
 51/9. II y avait 19 membres et 8 etrangers presents. Sydney 
 Smith presidait. 
 
 7 Avril. Club d'Econ. pol. Question de M c Culloch, 
 " L'etat des finances Anglaises justifie-t-il un impot sur les 
 revenus et s'il en est ainsi sur quel principe faut-il se 
 baser ? " II a commence par admettre la convenance comme 
 Peel 1'a montre, et qu'il faudrait avoir 500,000 au moins
 
 282 Political Economy Club 1842 
 
 de surplus. Le deficit annuel serait done de 3 millions et 
 il aurait mieux valu selon M c Culloch un impot sur les maisons 
 dont il y a plus de 3 millions en G de Bretagne et en les 
 taxant toutes de 5/- a 5, i en moy ne , il aurait 3 millions. 
 II considere les impots de consommation comme lois somp- 
 tuaires qui disent " avant d'user de telle ou telle chose tu 
 payeras tant." II n'y voit rien d'injuste. Ou bien les 
 patentes du systeme Fran$ais lui semblent avantageux. 
 Enfin il dit du mal (bien absurdement au moment ou comme 
 a dit Loyd les recettes vont en augmentant enormement) de 
 la poste a id. II admet la difficulte d'admettre le sucre 
 Stranger pendant 1'absurde objection a 1'esclavage. II trouve 
 1'Income taxe injuste sous plusieurs rapports et a la sottise 
 d'exclure les fonds de cette injustice. Tout le monde apres 
 lui et comme lui a trouve revolutionnaire 1'exemption 
 audessous de 150. Mill demande pourtant 1'exemption de 
 25 ou 30 valeur du strict necessaire, mais cette exemption 
 pour tout le monde. 
 
 L d Monteagle a parle comme en parlement defendant son 
 parti, et entr'autres bien sottement 1'abandon de la taxe 
 des maisons. Loyd et Warburton voulaient que la question 
 de Senior, vraiment scientifique, sur le choix a faire entre 
 property, income ou expense fut discutee en meme temps, 
 mais il s'y est refuse* et a bien fait. Warburton dit que 
 Vincome tax devient juste et egale quand elle est perma- 
 nente, mais tres injuste quand elle est momentanee. Loyd 
 voudrait qu'on essayat toutes les autres taxes avant celle- 
 la, qui deviendra seule populaire parmi les proletaries et 
 facile a augmenter. 
 
 Mill a montre le sophisme de Warburton. Buller, discours 
 politique, dit que c'est une taxe de guerre. II y objecte en 
 paix. 
 
 8 Juillet. Hier Club d'Econ. politique. Question de 
 C. Buller " Si 1' administration des chemins de fer serait 
 plus avantageuse pour la richesse du pays dans les mains 
 du Gouvernement que dans celles des Compagnies " a quoi 
 s'est ajoutee une autre question de Senior, a qui du reste
 
 1842 From Mr. ] . L. Prevost's Diaries 283 
 
 on n'a pas repondu, " S'il convient que le Gouvernement 
 aide les chemins de fer en Irlande." 
 
 Buller est apres bien de 1'hesitation pour une intervention 
 gouvernementale. Senior aussi, et ca a ete la tendance de 
 presque tout ce qui a ete dit sauf M c Culloch et moi qui 
 avons soutenu le systeme des compagnies demandant seule- 
 ment que les concessions ne soient pas a perpetuite. Tooke 
 a explique la difficulte de former la Compagnie de Londres 
 et Birmingham. 
 
 [J. L. P. was director of the London and Birmingham, 
 which became the London and North Western, also for 
 some years of the South Eastern. A. P.] 
 
 Pol. Econ. Club. Nombreux. Lord Lansdowne 
 et Monteagle, Mr. Gladstone, &c. Question de Tooke 
 resultant d'une question de Mill a 1'avant derniere seance 
 ou je n'etais pas. " Supposant qu'un pays puisse faire payer 
 de ses impots a un autre, serait-il sage d'exercer ce pouvoir 
 par des droits d' Exportation ou d' Importation ?" Tooke a 
 ete fort long et a du convenir que la question etait mal posee, 
 car si ce pouvoir etait permanent, le pays ou son gouverne- 
 ment devrait mettre ces impots. Cependant Tooke a montre 
 assez bien que le pays ne tarderait pas a soufrrir de pareils 
 impots et qu'ainsi il les payerait. M c Culloch 1'a nie. Loyd 
 a fait remarquer que si la Chine faisait payer le droii que 
 per9oit le gouverne* Anglais sur le the, toutes autres circon- 
 stances restant les memes, le consommateur Anglais payerait 
 au Gouvernement Chinois ce qu'il paye maintenant au fisc 
 de son propre pays. Je n'ai pas suivi Mill dans ce qu'il 
 a dit d'abstrait. La discussion a beaucoup tourne sur le 
 the. Je trouve que c'est une question qui tient a la poli- 
 tique plus qu'a 1'economie. Mais il est evident que le 
 premier effet de droits sur 1'exportation est de priver 
 le consommateur etranger de 1' article taxe ou de lui faire 
 payer le droit. Bientot la perte retombe sur le pays pro- 
 ducteur. Quant aux droits d'importation il semble que 
 d'abord, comme dit M c Culloch, le pays qui les impose les 
 paie. Mais la souffrance immediate est pour le producteur.
 
 284 Political Economy Club 1842 
 
 D'autres questions sont proposees par Coulson et Loyd d'ou 
 resultera une discussion ulterieure et sans doute la preuve 
 que, quelques entraves que les autres mettent au commerce, 
 tout peuple qui entend ses interets n'y repond que par la 
 liberte du commerce. 
 
 2 Mars 1843. Pol. Econ. Club. Question de Coulson 
 pour etablir que excluant toute action du change un pays 
 oil se developpe une demande nouvelle pour un produit 
 Stranger sans demande reciproque du producteur Stranger 
 pour un produit du dit pays se trouve en soufrrance com- 
 parative. Pour le prouver Coulson et Mill ont eu a faire 
 une supposition abstraite qui ne se retrouve pas en pratique 
 comme 1'ont montre Blake, Loyd et Tooke. La question 
 prochaine sous deux formes, 1'une de Coulson, 1'autre de 
 Mill sera : admettant ce desavantage convient-il d'user 
 de represailles ? On a elu en Fevrier Vardon, bibliothecaire 
 de la chambre des Communes qui m'a dit qu'il n'aura 
 presque jamais le temps de venir, et aujourd'hui le Comte 
 Pollon, ministre de Sardaigne, qui dans une lettre a Senior, 
 a declare son attachement a la liberte du commerce et le 
 plaisir qu'il a eu a voir son Gouvernement adopter un tarif 
 plus raisonnable pendant que la plupart des Etats d' Europe 
 ont fait le contraire. Sydney Smith a donne sa demission 
 il y a quelques semaines. II n'etait pas membre utile ; 
 ses saillees qui avec 1'age perdent de leur vivacite interrom- 
 paient souvent la discussion. 
 
 10 Avril. Au Club d'Econ. Polit. jeudi passe" [6th] 
 Coulson a developpe sagement sa question centre les repre- 
 sailles en fait de douanes. Mill a fait des suppositions 
 abstraites sans justesse et Torrens a dit des absurdites. Je 
 partis de bonne heure pour aller a une soiree. 
 
 7 D6c. Club d'Econ. Pol. Question de Larpent, " S'il 
 doit y avoir une difference de droits sur les produits des 
 Colonies qu'on tire aussi de 1'etranger et que le pays ne 
 produit pas " resolue en negative, c.a.d. que Larpent assimile
 
 1843 From Mr. J . L. Prevost's Diaries 285 
 
 avec raison toute protection de ce genre a une protection 
 de produits du pays. M c Culloch, pour faire causer sans 
 doute, a soutenu que la surete du pays et 1'avantage que 
 les Colonies donnent d'un commerce etendu peuvent justifier 
 un avantage de droits, les gouvernements etrangers pouvant 
 nous priver d'articles qui comme le coton nous sont neces- 
 saires. Loyd a combattu M c Culloch avec succes. Pollon 
 a dit quelques mots dans le meme sens. Tooke aussi, ainsi 
 que Merivale. Torrens voudrait mettre les Colonies sur le 
 pied de liberte avec le pays. (Cela amenerait necessairement 
 une liberte generale ce qu'il ne veut pas.) La discussion 
 en somme a ete peu complete. II y avait J. Hubbard. 
 
 1 Fevrier 1844. Club d'Econ. Politique. M c Culloch, 
 " Are differential duties on foreign productions, when 
 imported into the United Kingdom, necessary in any case, 
 and if in any case, on what articles ; and to what extent 
 should they be carried ? " II a commence par dire qu'il 
 ne s'opposait pas aux principes re9us d'Econ. politique 
 sur le commerce, mais qu'il y a des cas ou selon lui 
 rintert de 1'avenir et de la securite de la richesse acquise 
 justifient les droits protecteurs. Si Ton pouvait faire croitre 
 en Angleterre le coton aussi bien qu'aux Etats-Unis mais 
 Jd. plus cher, il voudrait un droit sur le coton d'Amerique 
 assez fort pour en empe'cher 1'importation. II ne veut point 
 le principe absolu et la liberte absolue du commerce est un 
 non sens. Pratiquement il veut un droit sur le ble de 5/- 
 parceque la Russie et la Prusse d'ou les ^ de 1'importation 
 viendrait, pourraient en prohibant 1'exportation dominer sur 
 1'Angleteire. Or un droit de 5/- augmenterait sensiblement 
 la production Anglaise. Le C te Pollon a dit que tous ces 
 malheureux arguments de protection etaient ceux des 
 gouvernements continentaux centre 1'Angleterre. Norman 
 a montre que 5/- de droit feraient une taxe de plus de 6 
 millions par an pour un avantage eloigne tres incertain ou 
 improbable. Tooke ne peut concevoir qui on fera juge de 
 la protection avantageuse ou meritee. Merivale accorde la 
 possibilite d'avantages indirects du systeme mercantile, p. ex.
 
 286 Political Economy Club 1844 
 
 pour les Etats-Unis d'etablir quelques grandes villes ou la 
 civilisation peut se conserver ou renaitre mais les maux 
 immediats de ce systeme sont plus grands. J'ai fait observer 
 que M c Culloch melait de la politique a 1' economic et que 
 Smith 1'avait fait en approuvant les lois de la navigation ; 
 mais que mme dans la question politique je differais autant 
 que possible de lui, estimant que le moyen d'eviter les 
 inconvenients de la jalousie ou de la guerre de la part des 
 etrangers etait de tenir strictement a la liberte du com- 
 merce. Mackenzie a trouve au contraire la question d'Econ. 
 pol. pure et legitime sans tre d'accord avec M c Culloch. 
 J'ai dit aussi qu'il me semblait que la discussion tombee 
 sur le ble presqu'entierement s'eloignait un peu de la 
 question qui ne parlait que de droits differentiels. Porter 
 n'a rien dit ; il etait m'a-t-il dit ensuite trop degoute du 
 tissu d'absurdites debite par M c Culloch. Blake et T. Tooke 
 ont dit que loin de tenir presqu'exclusivement de la Baltique 
 une des plus grands importations de ble avait eu lieu de 
 France et de Belgique pendant le systeme continental. 
 
 4 Avril. Club d'Econ. Pol. " Is legislative interference 
 between the Master and the Adult-Labourer, to regulate 
 the hours of work, expedient ? " Chad wick a dit que les 
 amis de la reduction des heures a Manchester sont les grands 
 proprietaries de filatures neuves et ceux qui ont en con- 
 currence des cours d'eau, que la tendance est a diminuer le 
 temps. II a lu les opinions de Senior. L'ancien bill a ete 
 gate par les Lords dans les bonnes clauses d'education. II 
 ne convient pas de regler le travail de ceux qui traitent 
 eux-m6mes, savoir en pratique les puberes. En Prusse 1'edu- 
 cation est force"e, mais le gouvernement ne gne point les 
 ouvriers adultes. Les fabricants sont mieux que les agri- 
 culteurs et vivent au moins aussi longtemps. Tooke a 
 soutenu Chadwick et n'admet que des reglements de police 
 comme centre le travail des filles dans les mines. Le bill de 
 io h lui parait insense ! 
 
 C. Buller (qui a vote pour) se trouvant seul membre du 
 club de cet avis, exclut le mot master de la question. II
 
 1844 From Mr. ] . L. Prevost's Diaries 287 
 
 voudrait avoir une definition des principes que son vote a 
 viole. II considere la question comme politique plutot 
 qu'economique. La Prusse prend 3 ans de chaque homme 
 pour le service militaire. C'est une perte economique pour 
 ce qu'elle considere la surete du pays. On est d'accord sur 
 le repos du dimanche. Pourquoi ne reglerait-on pas par des 
 lois I'emploi des heures des autres 6 jours ? II trouve que 
 1' education doit continuer apres 13 ou 14 ans, et dans le 
 systeme actuel c'est impossible. On ne devrait pas per- 
 mettre aux femmes de faire de gros ouvrages, comme par 
 exemple aux femmes dans les champs. La limite de n h 
 reduirait le travail de 69 a 64. Juste T V1. sur le coton. II 
 n'y a par consequent qu'a oter le droit. 
 
 Lord Monteagle a contredit les faits de Duller. L'accumu- 
 lation de la population n'est pas un mal. L'education, le 
 soin des malades, ont fait de grands progres. Les emeutes 
 sont de plus en plus rares et moins graves. Le respect pour 
 la loi et la propriete est plus grand que jamais. On a 
 commence a intervenir au travail en 1803 (Warburton dit 
 1773) mais Lord M. ne parle que d'il y a 40 ans, reglement 
 sur les apprentis. Ce fut un mal mais ils etaient deja sous 
 reglement. La comparaison spirituelle de Buller du di- 
 manche avec les heures des autres jours ne tient pas. Les 
 lois ne peuvent pas rendre les homines meilleurs et plus 
 sages directement. 
 
 Warburton : C'est un nouvel Owenisme ou S* Simonisme 
 que Buller preche : il veut courir tous risques pour eviter 
 un danger imaginaire. Tous les practiciens admettent que 
 les ouvriers de fabrique sont beaucoup mieux qu'il y a 20 
 ou 30 ans. Quant au dimanche, les autres pays en sont au 
 meme point et s'ils travaillaient 7 jours par semaine, nous 
 serions obliges d'en faire autant. 
 
 M c Culloch admet beaucoup de ce qu'a dit Buller. La 
 question est de details. On a dit que meme pour les enfants 
 on devrait s'en remettre a 1'autorite paternelle. C'est bon 
 pour 15 ou 16 cas sur 20, mais maintenant on admet 
 1'intervention pour les enfants et il est depose a la demander 
 pour les femmes. Le danger lui parait imminent et sans
 
 288 Political Economy Club 1844 
 
 remede, d'une degradation graduelle de 1'etat d'une popula- 
 tion croissante sans esperance d' amelioration. L' Europe 
 entre dans au nouvel etat de societe dont les phases ne 
 peuvent se prevoir. II y a 3 ou 400 ans les ouvriers etaient 
 esclaves : ils deviennent maitres. L'emploi des enfants 
 encourage la population. Les troubles devront survenir. 
 La tendance est a 1' augmentation des etablissements et leur 
 diminution en nombre. II n'y aura qu'une fabrique a 
 Manchester, une a Glasgow, peut-etre une seule en Grande 
 Bretagne. Puis il a dit beaucoup de sottises sur le danger. 
 Mais il est clair selon lui que les io h ou u h detruiraient les 
 fabriques et qu'il faut la liberte pour les conserver. Ce- 
 pendant il veut regler le travail des femmes. Quant au 
 dimanche, Warburton a montre qu'il ne sait rien des autres 
 pays et presque rien du sien. 
 
 Torrens : Si la perte resultant de la reduction des heures 
 de travail tombe sur les salaires, 1'ouvrier souffrira si sur 
 le capitaliste les capitaux s'en iront et 1'ouvrier souffrira 
 davantage. 
 
 Loyd est de 1'avis de Chadwick et de Senior avec qui il 
 a travaille a Manchester. Le travail de nuit ne reussit 
 pas parcequ'il est plus cher et se fait mal : Buller a montre 
 de la legerete en faits et en raisonnements : le travail des 
 femmes est tres leger dans les fabriques de coton. II s'agit 
 de 1' existence du pays et ses legislateurs devraient etudier 
 le sujet avant de la risquer. II est heureux qu'un homme 
 aussi habile que Buller n'ait trouve que de si faibles argu- 
 ments. L'intervention en industrie a toujours etc funeste 
 et Ton ne peut trop declarer que celle en question ferait le 
 plus grand tort a la condition physique et morale du peuple. 
 Tant pis pour la Prusse si elle perd du temps de ses ouvriers. 
 Quant au dimanche Warburton a raison et M c Culloch ne 
 sait ce qu'il dit. Un legislateur proposera-t-il un 2 d dimanche 
 par semaine ? 
 
 (Ce discours tres eloquent a ete suivi de bruyants applau- 
 dissements, chose nouvelle.) 
 
 Apres le the, on a demande a Hawes de parler, ce qu'il 
 a fait fort bien soutenant Buller. II ne peut re"pondre aux
 
 1844 From Mr. J. L. Prevost's Diaries 289 
 
 arguments economiques, mais croit la morale interesse a 
 la question. Warburton meme a dit que personne ne dispute 
 la convenance de 1'intervention pour atteindre un but moral. 
 Monckton Milnes a qui Ton ne demandait rien a voulu dire son 
 avis aussi pour Buller : il craint les coalitions d'ouvriers. 
 
 Chadwick a bien repondu sur 1'amelioration de la position 
 des classes ouvriers en fabriques qui excepte 1835/6 n'ont 
 jamais ete si bien qu'a present les families gagnent 3O/- a 
 40/- par semaine. 
 
 2 Mai. Club d'Econ. Pol. Tooke demande s'il est 
 clair que le mal d'une tendance a 1'augmentation de la 
 valeur des metaux precieux depasse celui d'une diminution 
 de cette valeur et montre que D. Hume se trompait en vou- 
 lant que 1'avilissement graduel de cette valeur fut un bien. 
 Jacob ("pauvre autorite" dit M c Culloch) dit que de 1483 a 
 1583 la quantite d'or et d'argent quintupla ainsi que les 
 prix et que jamais 1'ouvrier ne fut dans une si mauvaise 
 position qu'a la fin de cette periode. En 1812 la deprecia- 
 tion de le etait a son comble. En 1822 et 1833 les prix 
 etaient au plus bas et les ouvriers heureux (" abondance 
 naturelle du ble, ' ' dit M c Culloch) . Les impots rendaient mieux 
 que jamais. Tooke croit done que le bien d'un rencherisse- 
 ment des me"taux depasse le mal. Torrens n'a aucune 
 confiance a des faits egrenes et dit beaucoup de niaiseries. 
 
 M c Culloch croit que les salaires s'ajustent vite (ce qu'on 
 lui conteste a bon droit) et que les faits de Tooke ne prouvent 
 gueres. Les fermiers gagneraient (ce qu'on conteste aussi 
 parcequ'ils ne peuvent payer en plein). 
 
 Norman d'accord avec Tooke sauf la dette nationale. 
 Tous sont d'accord qu'il ne faut pas agir artificiellement. 
 
 6 Juin. Question de C. Buller qui n'y etait pas, ni 
 Loyd, ni Norman ouverte par Torrens, dans les bons 
 principes metalliques que le papier monnaie en Angleterre 
 est une fonction publique sans exception et que quoique 
 1'interet des banques, bien entendu, fut une protection 
 suffisante, 1'experience prouve que ces banquiers ne sont 
 pas tons solides.
 
 290 Political Economy Club 1844 
 
 Tooke a cherche a demontrer que les depots de la banque 
 peuvent etre retires et exportes en or sans que le reste de 
 la circulation s'en ressente. J'ai re"pondu, que ce n'etait 
 point probable, parceque ces depots ne representent qu'une 
 portion de ceux que tiennent les banquiers de Londres et 
 que d'ailleurs cette exportation d'or remplirait le but de 
 payer une portion des importations et de diminuer la quan- 
 tite d'argent. 
 
 Mill a soutenu Tooke. Banfield, qui cherche a obtenir 
 la place de prof, au college et qui etait la etranger amene 
 par Chad\vick, a montre en parlant deux fois (de trop) 
 qu'il n'entendait rien au sujet et on ne lui a point repondu. 
 M c Culloch avant moi avait combattu Tooke, et attribue aux 
 banques de province les desastres de 1825/6. J'ai fait 
 remarquer que la faute etait au moins autant a la banque 
 d'Angleterre qu'aux autres. II avait aussi admis comme 
 possible que 1'emission de billets dans certains cas comme 
 subsides a 1'etranger fut permise. J'ai repousse cette idee. 
 
 4 Juillet. Club d'Econ. Pol. Question Graham. Si les 
 banques peuvent augmenter ou diminuer le montant de 
 currency en main du public, quand elle consiste d'or et de 
 papier (^changeable, plus que si c'etait tout metallique. 
 II n'a rien pu dire de clair et s'est excuse sur la confusion 
 de ses idees. Tooke a beaucoup parle dans le sens que les 
 banques ne peuvent pas agir. Loyd a parle admirablement 
 et tres longuement, montrant que les banques peuvent 
 pousser 1'emission et 1'ont fait. Le danger en est tres grand. 
 La convertibilite est un effet et non une cause. II a montre 
 par le t&noignage de Palmer et de Gilbart en 1841, Tooke 
 en 1832, qu'ils admettent cette action des banques que 
 Tooke nie a present. De Janv. 1834 a Janv. 1837 1'or fut 
 re"duit a la Banque de 12 a 14 millions sans reduction de 
 billets. Ce furent les escomptes qui monterent an. De 
 m6me de Fevrier 1824 a Aout 1825 1'or tomba de i3,8oo/m 
 ^ 3>5o/m les emissions restant les memes ig.^oofm. (II a 
 omis de dire que ce chiffre d'emission ne renfermait pas les 
 billets dans la Banque.) Tooke a beaucoup repondu &c.
 
 1844 From Mr. J. L. Prevost's Diaries 291 
 
 5 D6c. Club d'Econ. Pol. Question de Torrens absent 
 ouverte par Mill. " Was Ricardo correct in stating that ' the 
 same rule which regulates the relative value of commodities 
 in the country, does not regulate the relative value of the 
 commodities exchanged between two or more countries ? ' 
 Mill dit que Ricardo avait raison mais au lieu de countries 
 il dit places : et croit qu'en theorie et meme en pratique 
 il doit se produire et envoyer ailleurs des marchandises, 
 que le pays consommateur pourrait produire a moindre 
 cout. M c Culloch croit que le chapitre du commerce etranger 
 de Ricardo est fautif et qu'en pratique on n'importe que ce 
 que les autres font a meilleur marche. On veut y revenir. 
 M c Culloch dit qu'il faut discuter les impots. 
 
 6 Mars 1845. Question Senior sur 1'effet des impots 
 indirects sur les salaires. II ne croit pas qu'il y ait influence, 
 mais la discussion tres froide en 1' absence de M c Culloch 
 a porte sur 1'influence morale et la degradation des classes 
 ouvrieres. Loyd approuvant la theorie de M c Culloch a blame 
 fortement son manque d' attention a 1'effet moral. 
 
 3 Avril. Club d'Econ. Pol. Question habilement de"- 
 veloppee par Mill sur 1'influence que le gouvernement 
 doit exercer sur 1'industrie et par Sir W. Clay sur les limites 
 du principe de concurrence pour subvenir aux besoins 
 physiques du peuple. Mill distingue 1'intervention qui 
 peut tre necessaire pour les individus qui ne sont pas 
 libres comme les esclaves, les enfants et, dans certains cas, 
 les femmes. Pour la masse des ouvriers il demande que le 
 Dimanche soit ferie legalement. II veut que les terrains 
 dans les colonies nouvelles soient adjuges par le gouverne' 
 selon certains regies : sans reglement sur ces divers points 
 il anivera que la minorite fera la loi et que la majorite 
 ne pourra pas agir dans le sens qu'elle considerera avantageux. 
 Quant a 1'interet des consommateurs il voit souvent la con- 
 currence finir en coalition et en monopole de fait, comme 
 pour 1'eau et les chemins de fer. Alors il y a perte, car le 
 public a plusieurs administrations, moins bonnes et plus
 
 292 Political Economy Club 1845 
 
 cheres que ne serait une seule. Dans d'autres cas comme 
 pour le papier monnaie, le public consommateur n'a pas de 
 choix et peut ne pas etre libre. Alors le gouvernement fait 
 bien d'empecher que le premier venu exerce cette industrie. 
 L'influence du gouvernement, les constructions dangereuses, 
 les plans de villes qui favoriseraient les contagions, &c. 
 Enfin les professions du droit et de la medecine lui paraissent 
 exiger qu'on veille a ce que ceux qui les exercent aient 
 fait certaines etudes. 
 
 Clay, dans le mme sens, met au premier rang, parmi les 
 exceptions, les nacres, la police &c. mais, dans tous les cas, 
 c'est a ceux qui demandent un monopole a en prouver la 
 convenance. 
 
 II pose trois conditions dont le manque Justine inter- 
 vention gouvernementale : 
 
 1. Le nombre des concurrents doit tre considerable. 
 
 2. Le capital doit pouvoir affluer aisement vers une 
 industrie ou s'en retirer. 
 
 3. Le champ de consommation doit tre susceptible de 
 s'etendre. Ainsi les brasseurs ont un monopole de fait a 
 Londres parce qu'il faut 500,000 pour etablir une brasserie 
 et acheter des cabarets sans lesquels on est sans debouches. 
 Pour les Railways on ne peut pas retirer le capital. II 
 croit qu'il y a une limite a la demande d'un quartier donne 
 pour 1'eau. Dans tous cas 1'intervention du gouvernement 
 lui parait done avantageuse. 
 
 Tooke trouve qu'il faudrait definir le domaine de la police 
 et rappelle la discussion de A. L. Prevost sur les fiacres. 
 On a beaucoup obtenu en obtenant les omnibus et le 
 nombre illimite de cabs. 
 
 Senior objecte a Mill et Clay qu'ils supposent le gouverne- 
 ment parfait et que comme il ne Test pas il ira trop loin, se 
 constituera juge de la necessite d'intervenir, interviendra 
 mal a propos et amenera un re"sultat pire que la liberte de la 
 concurrence. 
 
 M c Culloch admet que l'argument de Senior a de la force 
 mais croit que le gouvernement doit intervenir souvent et 
 qu'il repr&ente toujours dans chaque pays 1'opinion le mieux
 
 1 845 From Mr. /. L. Prevost's Diaries 293 
 
 informee. Puis il dit que le laisser faire est depuis Smith 
 un cri dont on a abuse. La societe se divise tous les jours 
 d'avantage en capitalistes qui ont tout et ouvriers qui n'ont 
 rien. Pour ceux-ci, il faut le Dimanche. Pour le pays il 
 faut employer de preference ses navires, ses ouvriers &c. 
 
 Norman voit la justesse des raisons de Mill mais grande 
 difficulte d' application. Un moyen de parer a la difference 
 de position qui alarme M c Culloch serait de mobiliser les 
 terres en rendant facile de les morceler, en changeant la 
 loi de succession. 
 
 Rien n'a etc dit de 1'effet que pourront avoir contre le com- 
 merce anglais les lois sur les heures de travail, &c. 
 
 I Mai. Le Club d'Econ. pol. a discute la question de 
 Merivale sur les " Allotments " de terre aux ouvriers et 
 il y a eu unanimite contre ce mode de culture, tout en 
 admettant que de petits jardins moins de \ acre, sont 
 excellents pour la moralite des populations agricoles. 
 
 5 Juin. Club d'Econ. pol. fort ennuyeux Senior sur 
 1'effet des depenses en salaires et en marchandises. 
 
 4 Dc. Question La loi d'Ainesse est-elle favorable 
 1' accumulation de la richesse ? Coulson. 
 
 II definit la loi, celle qui ab intestato donne les biens 
 du pere a un fils sauf paiement des dettes. II croit que la 
 loi n'est pas avantageuse, regrette 1'absence de M c Culloch 
 qui dit que les grandes fortunes encouragent les hommes 
 a s'industrier pour les obtenir. Sunt qui non habeunt, 
 est qui non curat habere. En Hollande 1'esprit d'accumula- 
 tion est aussi grand qu'ici sans ainesse. En Amerique 
 aussi ou meme on n'ose pas favoriser un enfant. La division 
 egale diminue le nombre des oisifs. Est-ce un mal ? Pour- 
 quoi considerer les immeubles comme differents des autres 
 biens ? La nature met un terme a la subdivision. En 
 Irlande malgre 1'ainesse la subdivision des baux est comme 
 infinie. Merivale conteste et aime 1'ainesse ; on prefere 
 la terre et on subdivise trop selon lui. Cependant meme
 
 294 Political Economy Club 1845 
 
 en France la tendance des grands intere'ts reproduit plus 
 de grands proprietes qu'il n'y a de subdivis. II croit 
 que la loi d'ainesse perd de son avantage a mesure que la 
 civilisation avance. 
 
 Senior soutient Coulson. L'ainesse est inactive le plus 
 souvent, les f des peres au moins testent centre. Mais en 
 France 250 deputes ont moins de 400 par an. 
 
 H. Mackenzie dit que la France fait de grands progres 
 avec sa division de terres. 
 
 Mill attribue en partie la grande subdivision en France 
 a la plus grande confiance qu'on a aux terres qu'aux autres 
 biens. 
 
 En Italic 1'ainesse ne fait que des paresseux. Le peuple 
 prospere avec les subdivisions. 
 
 Monteagle raconte comment des valtees du Cumberland 
 ont des statesmen de 1000 a 1500 valeur qui sont sous 
 1'ainesse de tout temps et qui sont tres heureux, les cadets 
 s'enrichissant a Londres. 
 
 Norman en Norvege a vu des gens tres riches sous la 
 division forcee. 
 
 5 Fv. 1846. Club d'Ec. Pol. tres nombreux. Question 
 de Tooke si le projet pour les bles maintenant devant la 
 chambre des communes est juste et sage. Torrens qui 
 avait propose une question longue et ridicule n'est pas 
 venu. Tooke a developpe la sienne pesamment approuvant 
 le projet de Peel, cite Pennington et combat M c Culloch 
 absent qui a pre"tendu que 1'agriculture est sujette a des 
 charges rendant I'impot d'entree sur le ble convenable. 
 
 Pennington a parle indistinctement et Pryme a dit des 
 bStises. Monteagle a bien dit que le Club ne devait douter 
 ni de la justice ni de la sagesse, mais que absolument la 
 mesure n'etait pas sage, puisqu'elle serait plus sage 
 immediate. 
 
 B. Baring a cherche a montrer que la taxe des pauvres 
 tombe sur les fermiers ce que Blake senior a me* aussi que 
 Chadwick qui croit que I'inte're't des agriculteurs serait de 
 faire des chemins de fer k leur frais a 5 milles de leurs
 
 1846 From Mr. J. L. Prevost's Diaries 295 
 
 terres. Baring a dit aussi que le delai de 3 ans serait une 
 experience qui laissait de 1'esperance aux fermiers. Loyd 
 a repondu que cette esperance est absurde et que pour cela 
 meme la liberte immediate serait beaucoup meilleure. II 
 a commence par dire que si Tooke voulait occasionner une 
 discussion sans but il avait reussi. Tout ce qu'on a dit 
 promet de repondre affirmativement a la question. II 
 vaudrait mieux ouverture immediate des ports mais il faut 
 accepter comme bonne et sage la proposition de Peel. II 
 est impossible de dire absolument sur qui retombent les 
 impots et chacun devrait etre discute separement. Senior 
 a parle. 
 
 Je ne sais pourquoi je n'ai rien ecrit ici de la proposition 
 de Peel du 24 Janv. de reduire 1'echelle mobile a io/ maximum 
 4/ minimum de 48/ a 53/ pour avoir le ble sans droit le i er fev. 
 1849.* Cela accompagne de reductions d'autres droits et de 
 la declaration que les protections ne sont pas tenables est 
 une mesure plus importante, un pas plus grand qu'on n'ait 
 jamais fait en matiere commerciale. 
 
 3. Pol. Econ. Club. Senior chair pas de dis- 
 cussion. Question sur 1'avenir. Tooke ne veut plus diriger 
 le comite. II me propose pour le remplacer. Je refuse. 
 On vote que sa demission ne soit pas acceptee. On decide 
 que 5 nouveaux membres seront regus outre un rempla9ant 
 pour H. Palmer qui resigne. On proposer a en fevrier que 
 les etrangers ne soient plus recus gratis. 
 
 Dec. 2, 1847. Pol. E. Club. Mill sur la question sous 
 quelles circonstances convient-il de maintenir un surplus 
 de revenu pour payer la dette ? conclut a la convenance de 
 payer quand on peut. La discussion devient vague et 
 conversation. 
 
 2 Mars 1848. Pol. EC. Club. Mill : Quelles sont les diffe- 
 rences essentielles entre les billets de banque et les autres 
 formes de credit ? Question incidentelle. Les billets 
 s'appelle argent mais sont une forme de credit. 
 
 * Le droit sera i/.
 
 296 Political Economy Club 1848 
 
 II y a 5 manieres d'acheter qui ont un effet sur les prix. 
 La difference est que les Bank notes seuls completent le 
 marche. Mais pour les lettres de change on peut consideYer 
 le marche comme conclu, la chance que 1'effet revienne 
 non paye etant un incident occasionnel. II pense que les 
 bons sur banquiers equivalent a peu pres aux payements 
 comptant. 
 
 Loyd ne peut considerer la question comme theorique. 
 C'est pratique. On ne peut payer a son comptoir avec autres 
 effets que metal ou billets. L f augmentation ou la diminu- 
 tion des billets augmente ou diminue la confiance qui est 
 done 1'effet de 1'augmentation des billets et la cause de celle 
 des lettres de change. Celles-ci varient beaucoup de nature 
 et d'emploi. (Conversation.) 
 
 Thornton : petits effets equivalent a billets s'ils sont 
 egalement surs. Loyd non : II y a grande difference entre 
 un Bank Post Bill et un Bank Note. 
 
 W. Blake junior croit qu'il faut tenir compte des affaires 
 faites avec effets de change. 
 
 Norman : Le billet n'est pas forme de credit mais argent, 
 la lettre n'est pas argent, il faut separer les deux choses. 
 Torrens : C'est une question de nomenclature. La coutume 
 et la loi ont donne aux billets la qualite d'argent. 
 
 Blake senior croit que les autres modes de paiement ont le 
 mme effet sur les prix et qu'il faut en tenir compte. Loyd : 
 Pourtant en Avril et Oct. dernier, on donnait des prix exageres 
 pour des billets. On peut remplacer Tor par des billets, 
 mais pas par des lettres de changes. Blake croit que Loyd 
 sort de la question. Loyd le nie. Clay croit que les lettres 
 de change n'ont pas d'effet sur les prix. 
 
 Tooke : Effets, billets, argent sont 1'effet des affaires. 
 Mill recapitule. 
 
 1 F6v. 1849. Pol. EC. Club. Mill Quelle est la maniere 
 la plus equitable de mettre un impot sur le revenu ? Un 
 pareil impot n'est pas un bon moyen de mitiger la diffe"- 
 rence de position des fortunes. II ne faut pas taxer le ne*ces- 
 saire. II faut exempter ce qu'il faut pour subsister. Au
 
 1849 From Mr. J . L. Prevost's Diaries 297 
 
 dessus de cela la taxe doit tre proportionnelle. II est 
 difficile de distinguer le revenu perpetuel qui est a 
 vie et des profits de I'industrie. La difference n'est pas 
 si grande qu'on le suppose ; il serait injuste de capitaliser 
 les revenus de tout genres pour les imposer sur cette echelle 
 comme la propose 1'association de Liverpool. Ce serait 
 supposer que chacun doit laisser ses enfants aussi riches 
 qu'il est. Encore plus injuste de ne taxer que les revenus 
 de biens realises et perpetuels, terres et fonds. 
 
 Porter explique un impot en Saxe qui taxe 75 et au dessus 
 a i|%, accordant ^ sur les rentes de terre, ^ sur les pro- 
 fessions et T ^j sur les profits industrials, puis augmentant 
 quand le revenu depasse 300, etc. Pryme aime mieux la 
 taxe actuelle que 1'ancienne parce qu'elle ne donne pas au 
 fisc connaissance du revenu de chacun. Chadwick ne voit 
 pas pourquoi on exempte une forte classe. L'ouvrier le 
 plus pauvre est protege, mais il est difficile de 1'imposer 
 directement, c'est pourquoi on devrait taxer toutes les 
 maisons. La limite de 150 est fallacieuse, fait du mal, est 
 anarchique. Si Ton exempte ceux qui paient 10 de Ipyer 
 c'est la moitie du peuple. Loyd est de 1'avis de Chadwick. 
 Le mot le ne'cessaire est vague : difficulte de taxer. Thornton 
 croit qu'il faut une exemption. L'ouvrier est deja trop 
 taxe et si on le surcharge cela tombe sur les profits. 
 
 Norman est avec Mill et aussi avec Chadwick. 150, 
 et pour les femmes 300, est une limite anarchique. C'est 
 un sacrifice affreux fait par Peel au besoin du moment. 
 Mais il est vrai qu'on ne sait comment atteindre directement 
 les petits revenus et que 1'impot sur le travail retombe 
 sur les capitalistes. Du reste le Schedule D de 1'income tax 
 profits et professions ne rapporte que 1,600,000 sur 5-5 m ons - 
 On pourrait accorder quelque chose aux proprietaires pour 
 assurance et reparations. II etait pour une taxe unique 
 sur les revenus, mais c'est impossible en pratique. II n'y a 
 pas d'avantage a ce secret prone par Pryme mais ce sentiment 
 general doit etre respecte. 
 
 Mill : La limite est justifiee par les impots indirects que 
 paie le pauvre. Mais la limite de 150 est absurde, 40 a
 
 298 Political Economy Club 1849 
 
 50 seraient mieux, mais ce necessaire doit etre exempte 
 pour tout le monde. 
 
 5 Avril. Norman a montre que 1'industrie anglaise n'est 
 pas et n'a jamais etc serieusement arretee par I'impot. 
 37 m ons de taxes ont etc otes depuis 30 ans. Le revenu 
 public etait de 101 m ons en moyenne de 1813 a 1815 dont 
 70 m ons en I'impots. La population etait 18 m ons : aujour- 
 d'hui 28. La pression de I'impot peut etre considered comme 
 diminuee de . Le gouvernement devrait faire en edu- 
 cation, archives, promenades, musees, beaucoup de depenses 
 que Ton n'ose pas faire. 
 
 M c Culloch est de 1'avis de Norman. Loyd aussi. Coulson 
 observe que la dette n'est point un simple transfert sans 
 importance et Mill encherit la-dessus, exagerant la perte 
 de la depense des rentiers tandis que selon lui les payements 
 d'impots auraient pu economiser une grande portion de ces 
 28 m ons - 
 
 L'assemblee etait nombreuse, Porter y avait amene 
 Aries Dufour. J'etais entre Strutt et Sir John Romilly elu 
 a la stance precedente. 
 
 6 Dc. Mill : Quels sont les meilleurs changements a 
 faire a nos impots ? On se plaint de 1'income tax sans 
 pouvoir proposer mieux, aussi de I'impot sur les fenetres. 
 Une taxe sur les maisons devrait etre retablie. On devrait 
 imposer fortement les hoiries qui vont aux collateraux et 
 qui d'apres Bentham ne devraient descendre que par 
 testament. II faudrait oter les impdts sur les contrats, 
 surtout sur les assurances. Un impot foncier devrait 
 tre substitu^ a celui sur les transferts de terres. Oter les 
 taxes sur les briques, le savon, le the et le cafe. II est bon 
 de taxer le luxe, le vin, les diamants si possible, &c. 
 
 Thornton s'oppose a la taxe des maisons. 
 
 Chadwick (et Loyd) sont de 1'avis de Mill : il veut 
 beaucoup d'impots toutefois. Mackenzie centre la taxe 
 des maisons. Mill : L'etat pourrait offrir d'acheter de ceux 
 qui ne veulent pas payer. Discussion sur I'impot qui est
 
 1849 From Mr. J. L. Prevost's Diaries 299 
 
 lourd sur des maisons au centre des villes et faible sur les 
 grands chateaux. 
 
 7 Mars 1850. Norman : Les impots (depenses publiques) 
 pressent-elle sur les ressources du pays plus que sur les 
 autres principaux pays d'Europe ? Son pamphlet distribue 
 recemment a donne son opinion en detail. En France la 
 mendicite remplace les poor laws. En Suede Tarniee par 
 une loi d'il y a 160 ans est fournie comme impot par les 
 terres. 
 
 5 Juin 1861. Thornton: Les impots (non protecteurs) 
 peuvent-ils diminuer a la longue le revenu des travailleurs ? 
 II croit que non. 
 
 Wolowski en fransais soutient que toute taxe nouvelle 
 attaque les ouvriers comme toutes les classes et si Thornton 
 a raison,l'impot equilibrerait les fortunes comme dit Prudhon. 
 La discussion a ete longue. 
 
 5 1852. Thornton : Peut-on lever par emprunt 
 plutot que par impot les fonds necessaires aux depenses 
 publiques ? Non, mais il y a des cas ou 1'impot ne peut 
 suffire. 
 
 [Mr. John Lewis Prevost died in November 1852.]
 
 EXTRACTS FROM 
 LETTERS, BIOGRAPHIES, Etc. 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM CORRESPONDENCE OF J. B. SAY, (Euvres 
 Diver ses, Paris, 1848. 
 
 David Ricardo to J. B. Say, 8 mai 1821. 
 
 . . . Je me trouve heureux de pouvoir vous annoncer 
 que la science economique est de plus en plus etudiee par 
 la jeunesse de ce pays. Nous avons forme recemment un 
 club d'economistes-politiques ou nous pouvons nous vanter 
 de compter MM. Torrens, Malthus, et Mill. Beaucoup 
 d'autres encore soutiennent vivement les principes de la 
 liberte du commerce, dont les noms ne sont pas aussi connus 
 du public. ... P. 417. 
 
 
 /. B. Say to David Ricardo, 19 juillet 1821. 
 
 . . . C'est avec bien du plaisir que j'apprends que vous 
 avez forme' a Londres un club d'economistes-politiques, 
 et je ne doute pas qu'il ne contribue puissament a repandre 
 les principales verites dont se compose cette science. Ce 
 que je d6sire par dessus tout, c'est que ceux de ces principes 
 qui ne sont point abstraits, ceux qui ne sont que 1'exposition 
 naive des faits et de leurs consequences, se repandent dans 
 toutes les classes des citoyens. Nous n 'avons pas besoin 
 de former des controversistes habiles dans 1'ceuvre du 
 syllogisme, mais des economistes pratiques ; or, il ne faut 
 
 300
 
 i82i Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 301 
 
 pour cela que des notions accessibles au simple bon sens. 
 Ce que je crains, c'est que nous ne rebutions le commun des 
 hommes par des raisonnements trop abstraits. 
 
 Si vous admettez des associes etrangers, je m'estimerai 
 heureux d'etre membre d'une societe si respectable. P. 422. 
 
 /. B. Say to M. John Cowell, junr., secretaire de la societe 
 politico-e'conomique de Londres, 22 avril 1822. 
 
 MONSIEUR, 
 
 J'ai recu la lettre que vous m'avez fait 1'honneur de 
 m'ecrire le 7 du mois de mars au riom de la societe politico- 
 economique de Londres, qui a eu la bonte de m'admettre 
 comme associe etranger. Je vous prie de transmettre a 
 la societe 1'expression de ma vive reconnaissance. Je ferai 
 tout ce qui sera en mon pouvoir pour concourir a 1'honorable 
 but qu'elle se propose, et pour rendre mon nom digne de 
 paraitre a cote de ceux des membres que j'ai le bonheur 
 de connaitre. 
 
 Tous les amis de 1'humanite doivent s'applaudir de la 
 formation d'une telle societe. Elle sera eminemment 
 propre a discuter les verites qui meritent d'etre def endues 
 et propagees. Elle parviendra a les faire adopter par 
 1'opinion ; et c'est alors seulement que ces verites devien- 
 dront influentes dans la pratique. 
 
 Je conviens qu'au point ou sont parvenues plusieurs 
 nations une verite trouvee ou demontree, finira toujours 
 par faire son chemin et par obtenir 1'ascendant qu'elle 
 merite. Mais ses progres peuvent etre lents. La partie 
 la plus nombreuse des nations est incapable de porter par 
 elle-meTne un jugement qui exige et des etudes prealables 
 et une grande capacite de reflexion. Elle n'adopte une 
 opinion, que lorsque la reputation de son auteur est con- 
 sacree par le temps et confirmee par 1'assentiment de 
 plusieurs ecrivains successifs, qui eux-memes n'acquierent de 
 1'autorite qu'avec le temps. Plusieurs generations peuvent 
 ainsi s'ecouler avant qu'une verite soit reconnue et consacree ; 
 tandis que 1'assentiment d'une societe eminente en inten-
 
 302 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 tions, en jugement, et en savoir, peut, en moins de temps, 
 lui assurer une preponderance desirable. 
 
 Vous avez la complaisance, Monsieur, de me faire part 
 des sujets dont la discussion a occupee ou va occuper la 
 societe. Je n'ai pas la presomption de me croire capable 
 d'aj outer de nouvelles lumieres a celles qui sortiront de 
 son sein ; je suis d'ailleurs trop incertain du moment ou 
 cette lettre pourra vous parvenir, pour me flatter que mes 
 vues sur les questions deja elevees arrivassent avant le 
 moment de ces interessantes discussions. 
 
 D'un autre cote, ignorant les statuts de la societe et 
 les bornes prescrites aux sujets dont elle doit s'occuper, 
 il m'est difficile de lui suggerer de nouvelles questions. 
 Neanmoins je me hasarderai a en joindre une ou deux a 
 la presente. 
 
 Je me permettrai encore, si la proposition n'en a pas 
 deja etc faite, de solliciter de la part de la societe un temoig- 
 nage eclatant de veneration et de reconnaissance pour 
 Adam Smith, dont les ecrits nous ont montre la vraie 
 maniere de considerer les choses en economic politique, et 
 qui nous a fourni par la les moyens de decouvrir meme les 
 imperfections de son immortel ouvrage. 
 
 Agreez, Monsieur, les assurances de ma consideration 
 distinguee et de mon sincere devouement : J. B. SAY. 
 P. 438. 
 
 David Ricardo to J. B. Say, 5 mars 1822. 
 
 ... A la derniere reunion de notre club d'economie 
 politique, j'ai lu votre lettre, et j'ai ete charge par 1'assemblee 
 de vous en adresser ses remerciments. Cette societe a de 
 fort modestes preventions, et n'a point songe a ad joindre 
 des associes etrangers. Mais elle a adopte la resolution 
 d'admettre des Strangers comme membres honoraires, et 
 vous avez etc" re$u en cette qualite a 1'unanimite. Nous 
 esperons, avec le temps, pouvoir elever notre existence, 
 comme club, a la dignite d'une academic, et devenir un 
 corps savant de plus en plus nombreux. P. 426.
 
 1822 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 303 
 
 EXTRACT FROM A LETTER OF DAVID RICARDO TO J. R. 
 McCuLLOCH. (Letters, edited by J. H. Hollander, 
 New York, 1895. P. 127.) 
 
 LONDON, 8//* February, 1822. 
 
 ... I attended a meeting of our Political Economy 
 Club on Monday last. We had a full attendance, and 
 several knotty points were discussed. There is a note 
 in the last edition of my book, in which I express an opinion 
 that if a commodity be raised in price, in consequence of 
 being taxed, and the same quantity as before be consumed, 
 the additional price will not make it necessary to employ 
 any more money for its circulation. The same opinion 
 is expressed by Mill in his book. The correctness of this 
 view was doubted, and it was accordingly made the subject 
 of conversation. The majority of the company were I 
 think convinced that the proposition was a true one. My 
 opinion of the effects of machinery on the demand for 
 labour was also discussed, but I could hardly satisfy myself 
 of the general opinion on that disputed point. We are 
 to resume the conversation on both subjects when Mill 
 and Torrens are with us. They were both absent on account 
 of ill health. 
 
 EXTRACT FROM JAMES MILL, A BIOGRAPHY, BY A. BAIN. 
 (London, 1882. Pp. 198-199.) 
 
 With the publication of this work [Elements of Political 
 Economy, 1821] we may associate the founding of the Political 
 Economy Club, which also took place this year. The 
 projector of the Club was Thomas Tooke, the same who 
 drafted the petition to Parliament, of 8th May last year, 
 from the Merchants of London, in favour of Free Trade. 
 The nucleus of the Society was a small knot of Political 
 Economists (Mill included) who had for some time held 
 evening meetings at Ricardo's house, for the discussion of 
 economical questions. The furthering of the Free Trade 
 movement, inaugurated by the Merchants' Petition, was
 
 304 Political Economy Club 1822 
 
 the foremost object in the view of the projectors of the 
 Club. . . . 
 
 The Society soon embraced a large body, including the 
 most eminent political economists and politicians of the 
 time. It has continued to the present hour and has been 
 maintained from the same sources. Every one of our 
 Chancellors of the Exchequer has passed through the 
 ordeal of its debates. John Mill was eventually introduced, 
 and was most assiduous in attendance for the remainder 
 of his life ; for a very long time, it was the only society 
 that he frequented. 1 
 
 Mill was of course a prominent member from the first, 
 and always appeared to advantage in the discussions. 
 The renowned Malthus, who made such a success in dealing 
 with the one subject of Population, was by no means re- 
 garded as a steady light on Political Economy at large. 
 His manual of the general subject is certainly not a satis- 
 factory performance. The survivors among the early 
 members of the Club well remember Mill's crushing criticisms 
 of Malthus's speeches. 
 
 EXTRACTS, LETTERS OF J. R. MCCULLOCH TO MACVEY 
 NAPIER. (Correspondence of the late Macvey Napier, Esq. , 
 edited by his son Macvey Napier, London, 1879.) 
 
 1824. 
 
 P. 40. . . . Have the goodness to tell Mr. Cockburn that 
 the question of taxing professional incomes equally with 
 those of the other classes, was discussed at a full meeting 2 
 of the Political Economy Club and that, though they agree 
 in very little, they unanimously agreed that the arguments 
 in the Review on that subject were quite incontrovertible. 
 Should an Income-tax ever be again imposed you may 
 depend upon it the principle will be fully acted upon. 
 
 1 [See also Leslie Stephen, Life of Fawcett, 1885, p. 197 n. H.H.] 
 1 [The meeting referred to was on 1st March, 1824. McCulloch's article had 
 appeared in the Edinburgh Review for October, 1823. On page 133 of this 
 correspondence he says he has renounced the opinion that professional persons 
 should be taxed as heavily as others. H.H.]
 
 1836 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 305 
 
 P. 41. ... At present the rage is for Political Economy 
 and, if not a lion I am at all events a lion's whelp. A 
 Political Economy Club has been founded in the City, 
 exclusive of the West End Club, to which I am a perpetual 
 visitor. It consists of about 30 merchants of the first 
 water, and it is astonishing what a zeal they have for infor- 
 mation and how acute many of them are. 
 
 LETTER FROM N. W. SENIOR TO J. L. MALLET [undated, 
 but endorsed 1835]. 
 
 Mr. Tooke has just shewn me your note. I am most 
 anxious that the population question should be again 
 raised especially if we may hope for your aid in discussing 
 it. But I rather object to the wording of the question. 
 
 Mr. Malthus has not I think very clearly expressed his 
 opinion but if you will look at his correspondence with 
 me you will find that he nearly abandoned or rather dis- 
 avowed the doctrine that population has a uniform tendency 
 (in the sense of probability) to exceed subsistence. 
 
 We do not maintain that subsistence has a uniform 
 tendency to exceed population but that it has a tendency 
 to do so in the absence of disturbing causes. 
 
 We admit that though subsistence increases faster than 
 population, it has not the advance upon population that 
 might be desired. If the population has doubled, sub- 
 sistence probably has more than doubled, but it would 
 have been well if the ratio in favour of subsistence had been 
 still greater. 
 
 [A letter from Senior, acting as Secretary to Mallet, who had evidently 
 framed a question for discussion. H.H.] 
 
 LETTERS OF LORD OVERSTONE TO MR. G. W. NORMAN. 
 
 HASTINGS, 22 April, 1836. 
 MY DEAR NORMAN, 
 
 . . . Our evening at the Political Economy Club was 
 more animated than usual, notwithstanding the absence of 
 
 P. B.C. U
 
 306 Political Economy Club 1836 
 
 yourself, Senior and Torrens. In the fact [sic] of such 
 great guns afforded an opportunity for the lighter artillery 
 to try its power ; there was no want of discussion nor of 
 difference of opinion, and more than the usual proportion 
 of those present took a part in the proceedings. M c Culloch 
 opened his question, and after him, Hume, Parnell, Blake, 
 Chadwick, Buller, Baring, Larpent, Tooke, Pryme, and 
 your humble servant, all had their say. We elected as 
 new members Lord Kerry, Holt Mackenzie, and Graham. 
 
 I have brought your article down with me, and will 
 certainly read it carefully while I am here, but you tax me 
 rather severely, in calling for marginal annotations ; that 
 looks like serious work, and I do not set up for more than an 
 amateur critic. What absurdity for the House of Commons 
 to be wasting its time and energy (quaere, its character also) , 
 in further debates upon the Carlow question. Surely when 
 they have such questions to grapple with as the commuta- 
 tion of English Tythe, and the remedy of social grievances 
 in Ireland, it is a sad burlesque of public duty, and a miser- 
 able exhibition of personal feeling to prolong the discussion 
 of a subject from which certainly no public good can 
 result. 
 
 On my way down I have read the first article of the new 
 London and Westminster. I presume you have seen it ; 
 to me it was quite new as I had never heard it mentioned 
 by anybody. I have been much struck with it. It seems 
 to me to be clearly, forcibly, and elegantly written, and the 
 views it develops to be just, striking and important. Is it 
 written by James Mill ? . . . 
 
 Yours, 
 
 S. J. LOYD. 
 
 OVERSTONE PARK, 7 Feby. 1852. 
 MY DEAR NORMAN, 
 
 Tooke has no ground whatever for complaint against 
 me. You were present at the meeting of the Club, 
 Warburton in the Chair, when Tooke urged a meeting of 
 the Club in Jany., contrary to our usage and rules. Upon
 
 1852 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 307 
 
 this Warburton ruled, at my suggestion, that such a proposal 
 could not be entertained without previous notice, especially 
 if the Club was not unanimous in support of it. 
 
 Sometime after this I met Tooke at the Athenaeum. 
 He renewed the subject much against my consent. He 
 said that Warburton knew nothing about the rules of the 
 Club, that he was quite wrong, that no notice was requisite, 
 and that he (Tooke) was determined to have a dinner in 
 Jany. To this I replied that any gentlemen so disposed 
 might dine together in January, but that it could not be 
 made a dinner of the Club, that any such attempt would 
 certainly be resisted. 
 
 This is the whole case. I suspect that Tooke is of a 
 haughty temper at bottom and cannot bear to be thwarted. 
 You remember the violence with which he abused all who 
 opposed his currency crotchets. 
 
 However that may be, I wish to pacify the old man. 
 Have you any objection to call upon him at the Royal 
 Exchange Office ? You may state what Newmarch told 
 you and that you had reported it to me, that I had replied 
 by expressing extreme surprise at any such feeling on his 
 part, that I thought there must be a mistake on the subject 
 and that I had requested you to see him (Tooke) and put 
 the matter to rights. I do not think it necessary to say 
 more than this, but I leave you to say anything you think 
 right to appease the old man and make peace. 
 
 But beware, Tooke and some followers of his are getting 
 an undue predominance in the Club and they will ruin it 
 if we do not take care what we are about. The election 
 of new Members at our next meeting is a vital matter and 
 I hope we shall be cautious. 
 
 It is my full intention to be present at the next meeting 
 of the Statistical, and I rejoice to hear that Warburton 
 will attend. I understand the meeting to be this day 
 fortnight, Monday 2ist inst. I hope I am under no mistake 
 on this point. I wish you would attend as my guest, and 
 keep that Monday Eve'g open for the purpose. What 
 say you ?
 
 308 Political Economy Club 1852 
 
 I have a thousand things I want to discuss with you. 
 When last in Town I had an hour's talk with Gladstone. 
 
 Beasley has just had a great sale of oxen and sheep, a 
 Butchers' not an Amateurs sale, and all his sold well. Sheep 
 60/0 a head. Oxen 23 per head. I am settling here more 
 and more and I look to a return to Town with absolute 
 dread, but I suppose I must go dragging at each remove 
 a lengthening chain. 
 
 There is much land about unsown and the appearance 
 of growing crops is not quite satisfactory. 
 
 I fear I must be in Town in about a week. 
 Yours sincerely, 
 
 OVERSTONE. 
 
 EXTRACT FROM THE LIFE OF SIR ROWLAND HILL, BY SIR 
 R. HILL AND HIS NEPHEW GEO. BIRKBECK HILL. 
 (London : 2 vols, 1880.) 
 
 VOL. II., p. 416 : 
 
 " For a while [after retirement in 1864] he had 
 strength enough from time to time to attend the meetings 
 of the Political Economy Club. From a short paper that 
 he drew up I extract the following passage : 
 
 " When I became a member of the Political Economy 
 Club, I soon marked a questionable assumption there 
 viz. that whatever is in accordance with the laws of political 
 economy is necessarily right and expedient, and vice versa. 
 Question on this point happened to be raised one evening 
 by a remark from a member that the position maintained 
 on one side in the debate then going on was hostile to general 
 happiness ; the answer to which was, not that the objector 
 was mistaken, but that the objection was irrelative (sic) ; 
 seeing that the aim of political economy was not the general 
 happiness but the wealth of nations. I took the liberty 
 to point out that while political economists might, of course, 
 define their science as they pleased, they must remember 
 that under such restriction its unaided conclusions could 
 not claim to guide legislative action ; since it was at least
 
 1864 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 309 
 
 conceivable, and perhaps not improbable, that in certain 
 cases the course most tending to a nation's wealth might 
 differ from that most tending to its weal. I am much 
 inclined to think that neglect of this distinction is amongst 
 the causes which have at different times brought this im- 
 portant science into discredit, led the world to regard its 
 professors as hard, nay heartless, and in a measure invali- 
 dated their plea that they are not inventors but only dis- 
 coverers ; that they create no laws but merely set forth 
 the logic of facts. So far, however, as I can observe in my 
 retirement, such distinction is in the way to acquire recogni- 
 tion." 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM THE LIFE OF SIR CHARLES DILKE. (London, 
 1917.) 
 
 SIR Charles was elected in May 1869 to the Political Economy 
 Club, of which Mill was a leading member, " defeating 
 George Shaw Lefevre, Sir Louis Mallet, Lord Houghton, 
 and John Morley, although, or perhaps because, I was 
 somewhat heterodox. Still," a marginal note adds, 
 " Mallet and Houghton were pretty heterodox too." 
 
 " The Political Economy Club is shewn by Ashley to 
 have been the assembly of the elders of the Church, of which 
 the founder assumed that they possessed a complete code, 
 representing just principles, necessary to 'diffuse.' The 
 Club was to watch for the propagation of any doctrine 
 hostile to sound views. The sect grew rapidly from the 
 small body of Utilitarian founders, and conquered all the 
 statesmen who rejected the other opinions of James Mill. 
 As I tried to shew with the support of a majority of the 
 Club in April 1907, the heresy of which I was elected in 1869 
 as a representative has now triumphed. The facts 
 announced as certain by Ricardo have crumbled, and the 
 doctrine crumbles with them. . . . 
 
 The son of the Club's founder, John Stuart Mill, lived to 
 lead the way out of the doctrine of his father, James Mill, 
 Malthus, and Ricardo, against the opposition of his own
 
 3io Political Economy Club 1875 
 
 disciple Fawcett, into the new land which he just lived 
 to see. 
 
 In the debates, which I regularly attended, Mill, who 
 had become semi-socialist in his views, was usually at 
 odds with his own disciple Fawcett, who had remained 
 individualist. The rows which they had at this Club were 
 carried to the Radical Club after its formation later, and I 
 gradually deserted Fawcett, and more and more influenced 
 by Mill's later views, came finally to march even in front 
 of Mill in our advance." (i. p. 88.) 
 
 On the evening of May 6th 1881 Sir Charles met Lafitte, 
 " the Comtist Pope " at the Political Economy Club." 
 " Frederic Harrison treated him as an old lady of the Fau- 
 bourg would treat the Pope or the Comte de Chambord, 
 or both rolled into one. But Lafitte happening to say 
 that he approved of the French expedition to Tunis, 
 Harrison's feelings became too much even for his reverence 
 and his religion. Lafitte's remark, from Lafitte, shewed, 
 however, how unanimous was the French feeling." (i. 
 
 P- 38i.) 
 
 He told of a Cabinet in 1883 at which talked a great 
 
 deal " and I told Chamberlain that at the Political Economy 
 Club, where I had been dining on the previous night, there 
 was a closure of debate in the shape of the introduction 
 of hot muffins, which I thought would be excellent for 
 Cabinets." (ii. p. 549.) 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM THE LETTERS AND JOURNALS OF W. 
 STANLEY JEVONS. (London, 1886.) 
 
 $th June, 1875. 
 
 The discussion went off very fairly last night. I got 
 on without any difficulty, and was quite fluent most of 
 the time. I tried particularly to wind up so that the club 
 should know when I had done, but failed entirely. When 
 I left off there was a dead silence of several minutes, and 
 Leslie, sitting next me, remarked that he thought I was 
 going to begin again. The discussion was somewhat spirited
 
 1875 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 311 
 
 though tending to become conversational at times. The 
 preponderance of opinion was strongly in my favour, though 
 the chairman, old Edwin Chadwick, was much riled at 
 my ideas, and answered them at much length and as strongly 
 as he could. 
 
 Sitting next me was a Mr. Horace White, a well-known 
 American, who seemed to be editor or proprietor of the 
 Chicago Tribune, and spoke of the Mr. Lloyd who writes 
 as a young man in his office ; opposite was another American 
 guest 1 whom I thought I knew the face of, and he turned 
 out to be M c Culloch, the former treasurer of the United 
 States, whose portrait is on the greenbacks. Another 
 guest was Lord Fortescue, a pleasant man, but poor speaker. 
 The debate was much interrupted by a great noise outside 
 the window in the yard, and by Newmarch, who every now 
 and then blew up the waiter and rushed about calling for 
 the proprietor to stop the noise, (p. 335.) 
 
 dtk October, 1875. 
 
 . . . Whether wisely or not I declared war against 
 Mill's crotchets some years ago now, simply because I 
 know them to be untrue, and I shall have to fight it out. 
 I have little or no doubt about success, if only health and 
 opportunities favour me ; but you will see that in such 
 matters one labours under disadvantages in not living, 
 like most of the political economists and literary men, 
 in London. You can hardly fail to see the need of my 
 being there. It is more easy to imagine than describe. 
 Take only the case of the Political Economy Club, of which 
 I was made an honorary member a year or two ago. This 
 dines and debates once a month privately, and includes 
 every leading economist. Mill's opinions were all dis- 
 seminated and discussed there many years ago, indeed he 
 was a very prominent member. I have only been able 
 to attend the club two or three times altogether ; last May 
 I opened one discussion, but it is clearly of great importance 
 
 1 [Hugh McCulloch, not a guest but a member of the Club 1874-9, opened 
 a question on protective duties, 7th July, 1876. H.H.]
 
 312 Political Economy Club 1875 
 
 to have such an opportunity of discussing and urging my 
 own opinions, (p. 342.) 
 
 i6th December, 1877. 
 
 Rather more than a week ago I had an interesting 
 night at the Political Economy Club, where I happened 
 to sit next to an empty chair, and presently Gladstone 
 came in and sat down next me. I reminded him of my 
 name, when he at once talked about the Principles, and 
 all through dinner, for some two hours, I had a long dis- 
 cussion with him, partly about Owens College, concerning 
 which he made minute inquiries, but principally about 
 legislative matters. He seemed desirous to discuss vaccina- 
 tion, and I am sorry to say he sticks to his idea that its 
 value is not sufficiently proved to warrant making it com- 
 pulsory. At any rate he considers the matter open to 
 doubt. He argued that the vaccinators have changed 
 their ground, and now think revaccination needful ; and 
 on my saying I would agree to revaccination if necessary, 
 he held that that would be absurd, and reduced the thing 
 to an absurdity. When I mentioned his speech at the 
 Adam Smith Centennial, when he spoke against extending 
 government, he rather gave in to some slight objections 
 I made, and he would not object at all to compulsory vac- 
 cination if there was no doubt of its efficacy. 
 
 I was naturally much interested in the opportunity of 
 judging of the style of reasoning of such a man as Gladstone 
 in discussion. He was awfully wideawake, and picked 
 you up quickly enough if you made the least slip, but I 
 always regret that he had not a more scientific education. 
 
 Lord Granville was just opposite, and Lowe not far off, 
 but I did not speak to them. Mundella opened the debate 
 on the causes of depression of trade, and made some rather 
 pointed references to the Coal Question, which he seems to 
 admire. The discussion turned chiefly to trades' unions, 
 but I did not say anything. By the by, Gladstone spoke 
 of a tax on coal, and was quite clear that if there were any 
 such it would be on all coal raised, not merely exports, 
 but he would no doubt oppose any tax at all. (p. 375.)
 
 1878 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 313 
 
 FREDERIC HARRISON, Autobiographical Memoirs. London 
 1911. ii. 92-3. 
 
 IN 1876 I was proposed by John Morley as a member of the 
 Political Economy Club, of which the great lights then were 
 the Honble. Charles Villiers, the earliest champion of Free 
 Trade in Parliament (1838), who lived to the age of ninety-six 
 and was as stout a Free Trader as ever, and a champion long 
 after the death of Bright and Cobden ; Lord Bramwell, the 
 former Lord Justice, a keen individualist with whom I 
 carried on some controversy on labour legislation ; William 
 Newmarch, the indefatigable Secretary of the Club and 
 vehement opponent of Trade Unions, Socialism, and Labour 
 Laws ; Leonard Courtney, even then recognised as the heir 
 of J. S. Mill's economic authority ; Professor Henry Sidg- 
 wick, then collecting materials for his manual of erudition 
 on the Principles of Political Economy ; the late Earl of 
 Dalhousie, too early lost to every good cause, and Mr. A. J. 
 Balfour, who had only just entered the House of Commons 
 and was even then regarded as the rising hope of Liberal 
 Conservatism. 
 
 LETTER FROM SIR G. CHESNEY TO SIR Louis MALLET. 1 
 
 COOPER'S HILL, STAINES, Dec. 28 [1878]. 
 
 I cannot say that much new light was thrown on the 
 subject by the discussion at the Club, but the result was 
 so far satisfactory that no one impugned the reasoning on 
 which I advocated Col. Smith's scheme. Mr. Newmarch 
 made a speech which appeared to me if I may say so in a 
 whisper to be quite beside the mark. Mr. Courtney 
 propounded a perfectly impracticable plan of his own, and 
 Fawcett had no better suggestion to offer than that the 
 Government of India should grin and bear it. No one else 
 spoke at length, but Mr. Lowe, who sat near me, professed 
 himself (privately) to be a convert to the plan. Thornton, 
 
 f 1 Relative to the question opened by Chesney 6th December, 1878. H.H.]
 
 314 Political Economy Club 1878 
 
 who was there, did not speak, but if you should happen 
 to see him, he would be able to give you a much better 
 account of what passed than I can do in this note. The 
 substance of what I said is to appear in the Nineteenth 
 Century for January. 
 
 EXTRACT FROM LETTER FROM L. H. COURTNEY TO SIR 
 L. MALLET (gth July, 1879). 
 
 DEAR MALLET, 
 
 I share your regrets at the apparent decline of de- 
 corum at the Political Economy Club. Last Friday the 
 breaches of manners were sadly conspicuous. One officer 
 must not find fault with another, but the truth is that our 
 Treasurer is habitually too contemptuous of views other 
 than his own not infrequently wider than his own and 
 this characteristic does not abate as years pass. With 
 his rough disdain and Thornton's tendency to querulous 
 irritability there must be occasional splutterings, and the 
 only way of keeping them down is for you and other members 
 to attend as often as convenient to discountenance them by 
 quietly maintaining the rules of debate. 
 
 As to the discussion itself last Friday, I cannot speak 
 highly of it. The proposition before us could not be made 
 the basis of anything very valuable. 
 
 I did not intend to suggest that the inconvertible green- 
 backs of the United States were a sound currency. My 
 object in referring to the experience of America was simply 
 to shew that a currency could be maintained for some 
 years without a free mintage of any metal, and indeed 
 without any mintage at all. The result would be a con- 
 tinuous variation in the value of the currency which I 
 should condemn as highly inexpedient, but I could not 
 deny that as a matter of fact commerce could be conducted 
 in India even if Col. Smith's suggestion were adopted for 
 arresting altogether the coinage of silver. . . . 
 
 [Thornton's question was discussed on 4th July, 1879. H.H.]
 
 1 885 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 315 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM THE LIFE OF HENRY SIDGWICK. 
 (London, 1906.) 
 
 [1885.] March 7. Went up yesterday to the dinner of the 
 Political Economy Club. It is astonishing how little 
 Political Economy these people know. Thorold Rogers 
 knows a little and thinks he knows all there is to be known. 
 Courtney knows a good deal in his old-fashioned style and 
 must be confirmed in his economic orthodoxy by his justi- 
 fiable consciousness of his superiority to almost every one 
 else there. I found myself in the position of defending 
 Ricardo. (P. 403). 
 
 [1885] April ii. Dined with the Political Economy Club. 
 Our discussion was on the rise in the value of gold as cause of 
 depression. The bankers came to the front. It is an 
 exaggeration to say that they know no Political Economy ; I 
 think they read Mill some time ago and look at him from time 
 to time on Sundays. (P. 406.) 
 
 1886. May 5. I went up to read a paper at the Political 
 Economy Club on Taxation. Very few came to hear me ; 
 those who did were respectful. Giffen inclined to back out 
 of his advocacy of " degressive " taxation. Courtney 
 maintained that M.P.s really did consider the problem of 
 taxation as a whole as I urged although their speeches 
 did not make this evident. (P. 447). 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM THE LIFE OF LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH 
 BY G. P. GOOCH. (London, 1920. Pp. 456-460.) 
 
 " Our monthly meetings," records Mr. Stebbing, " are 
 preceded by dinner, when conversation never turns on 
 political economy. Nowhere does one hear better talk. 
 Courtney always took his full part. At the discussion 
 which followed he rarely till very recently omitted to speak ; 
 generally late. As if merely conversing, though in his clear 
 voice, he would assign its weight, or want of it, to every 
 argument of the many speakers and carry his audience 
 with him." " Lord Courtney," writes Sir Bernard Mallet,
 
 316 Political Economy Club 1920 
 
 " very often indeed joined in the discussion and was always 
 impressive when he did. I always had an idea he was at 
 the best at the Club. The table just suited his cross-bench 
 mind. He was always considerate in these discussions 
 to his opponent, though there was sometimes an effective 
 touch of scorn in his comments. I remember this especially 
 in the debates about tariff reform. Sometimes he let 
 himself go in speculation as to the future in connection 
 e.g. with some topic of imperial expansion, and then, whether 
 one agreed or not, one recognised that he had a gift of real 
 eloquence as well as readiness and facility in debate. I 
 think, however, that he was impressive mainly because 
 one felt he had deep and genuine convictions, and on 
 economic questions one always felt he was a trained thinker. 
 I doubt if any one else could shew such a record of attendance. 
 He certainly enjoyed the meetings." 
 
 Sir John Macdonell : " I first came to know Lord Courtney 
 as a member of the Political Economy Club. When I 
 was elected it numbered men of rare ability and force of 
 character, of whom I remember in particular Lord Bramwell, 
 the incarnation of massive good sense, with his sledge- 
 hammer logic and his dexterous use of the dilemma, a 
 weapon with which he lassoed loose reasoners : Lord Sher- 
 brooke, then past his prime, though still fitfully emitting 
 brilliant flashes ; Thorold Rogers, pouring forth floods of 
 chaotic information, omniscient but inaccurate. There 
 were the two Sidgwicks, each in his own way notable ; 
 the one a doubter of doubters preserving a non-committal 
 attitude towards the most obvious facts of life ; the other 
 combative, logical to a fault, and over confident as to the 
 errors and infirmities of others. There was also Jacob 
 Waley (who first introduced me to the Club), cautious 
 and acute, and " Minority Hare," impressively silent and 
 exercising great influence by his few words ; Lord Kimberley, 
 cautious, weighty, and dignified, with a fine unclouded 
 view of the universe. Mr. Balfour was a rare visitor, Sir 
 Thomas Farrer a constant attendant, his favourite theme 
 being the virtues of Free Trade. Among those and others
 
 1883 Extracts from Letters, Biographies, etc. 317 
 
 not less distinguished Courtney shone out as unsurpassed 
 in the lucidity of his reasoning and powers of analysing 
 economic facts. How often it fell to him to clear up or 
 unravel a discussion which had become obscure or entangled 
 in sophisms ! That position I am tempted to say position 
 of predominance in the Club he held for many years. 
 It was his, not only because of the unfailing lucidity and 
 orderly course of his reasoning ; it was also because of his 
 readiness to admit the good points if any in the contention 
 which he combated, and his evident desire to find a fit 
 place for his adversary's facts. I doubt whether in Parlia- 
 ment or elsewhere he shewed to so much advantage, 
 whether indeed he revealed so fully elsewhere his great powers 
 of truth-finding, as in these informal discussions. There 
 was on his part no asperity, no dogmatism, no eagerness 
 for victory, though his opinions were generally sharply 
 cut and firmly held. I have heard some of the chief forensic 
 reasoners of my generation, and I doubt whether any of 
 them was more persuasive than Lord Courtney in the 
 discussions which I recall." 
 
 EXTRACTS FROM NOTES USED BY MR. H. R. GRENFELL, 
 in opening the question on 6th July, 1883. 
 
 Moved to raise the question by Mr. Foxwell's question 
 of 6th April last, and by Mr. Goschen's speech at the Insti- 
 tute of Bankers, i8th April, on the purchasing power of 
 gold. 
 
 Mr. Foxwell gave expression to those opinions upon the 
 subject of utilitarianism and the summum bonum which 
 are to be found in the heretical writings of Mr. Cliffe Leslie. 
 
 I once heard a French lady sum up in one terse sentence 
 what I believe to be as true of political economy as of 
 private economy. The lady was discussing the domestic 
 relations of her daughter with the husband and she said : 
 " Je vous ferai savoir, Monsieur, que 1'argent, c'est beaucoup, 
 mais ce n'est pas tout ! " I am constantly reminded in
 
 318 Political Economy Club 1883 
 
 this room of the necessity of keeping open the distinction 
 between the " beaucoup " and the " tout." Many members 
 seem to be under the impression that our science embraces 
 the solution of the " tout " or " summum bonum," and to 
 forget that it is limited to the " beaucoup," leaving the 
 " tout " to the consideration of those occupied with the 
 higher range of subjects included in politics, religion and 
 philosophy. 
 
 Take for granted the fall of prices. Quote Mill's Political 
 Economy, vol. i., page 531 : ' The cases I contemplate 
 are those in which values in price are determined by com- 
 petition alone. In so far only as they are thus determined 
 can they be reduced to any assignable law " ; and on next 
 page : "In all reasoning about prices the provision must 
 be understood, supposing all parties to take care of their 
 interest. Inattention to these distinctions has led to 
 improper applications of the abstract principles of Political 
 Economy, and still oftener to an undue discrediting of 
 those principles, through their being compared with the 
 different sort of facts from those which they contemplate, 
 or which can fairly be expected to accord with them." 
 These words ought in all discussions about prices to be 
 written up in large letters on the wall. Mr. Cliffe Leslie 
 and those who have followed in his wake shew such inatten- 
 tion to these distinctions as to render them entirely unfitting 
 as a guide in such matters as value and prices. 
 
 As to wages, in my own mill the average wages per man 
 taken all round were 19 shillings in 1853, 26/- in 1875, 21/4 in 
 1881. The commonest labourers got 15 shillings a week from 
 1869 to 1872 and get about the same now. In 1853 the men 
 in certain special branches were paid 19/8 and 31/8, the same 
 men now get 25/- and 35/-. My agent writes that as a result 
 of this increase there has been a change in the habits of the 
 people. Shoes and stockings are now worn by all but 
 drunkards' children. The general increase of the mill wages 
 is due to the Factory Acts. " We are obliged to use men 
 at I5/- to 18/6 a week to do work that boys at 5 or 6 shillings 
 a week used to do and do better."
 
 1883 Paper by Mr. H. R. Grenfell. 319 
 
 Colliery wages in the same (South Wales) district. One 
 of the largest employers of colliery labour who began, I 
 think, as a labourer himself, writes to me : " From 1816 
 to 1821 work was very scarce and wages were consequently 
 low. The colliers who worked for me had only 2 or 3 days 
 a week work at about 2/6 per day. The remainder of the 
 week they worked on the parish roads at I shilling a day, or 
 else with those farmers who could afford to employ them at 
 that rate. About 1830, when the Railway era began, 
 matters mended by degrees so that colliers' wages advanced 
 to about 3/4 a day and continued at this rate until 1858. 
 From this time they gradually advanced up to 1874, when 
 they reached about 7/6 a day. They then went down by 
 degrees until 1878 to 4/- a day at which they have stayed 
 ever since." 
 
 Wages in the Birmingham district, furnished to me by 
 Mr. Barham : 
 
 " In the iron trade as carried on in the Black Country 
 near Birmingham, wages are regulated by the prices of 
 puddling, which itself depends, though in no very permanent 
 ratio, on the price of iron. Puddlers' wages were in 1853 
 TO/-, 1874 12/6 at the beginning and 10/9 at the end of the 
 year. In 1883 8/- falling to 7/9 but based upon the ton of 
 2240 Ibs. since the passing of the Weights and Measures 
 Act. The fall is therefore not so great as it appears, and 
 wages are in reality not far below what they were in 1853. 
 In the principal Birmingham employments the work is 
 generally done by the piece, and is contracted for by men 
 who employ subordinate men or boys to help them, the 
 man getting I5/- to 2O/- a week, and the boys 5/- to io/-. 
 It appears that rates are substantially what they were 
 in 1853. 
 
 In the engineering trades the rise in wages was more 
 gradual and the level reached has been better maintained. 
 The first great rise was in 1847 and 1848, and continued 
 steadily for many years. In 1871 an important strike led 
 to a reduction of working hours, but wages continued to 
 rise until and after 1874, and have not declined even now."
 
 32O Political Economy Club 1883 
 
 Confidential report of Manchester Chamber of Com- 
 merce 1883, shewing increase of wages earned in various 
 trades in Lancashire between 1850 and 1882. (Give sub- 
 stance.) 
 
 Agricultural wages. Statistics unnecessary, as most 
 members have personal knowledge. Return to my quota- 
 tion from J. S. Mill, and ask over what extent of England 
 are the buyers of labour as studious to buy cheap, as the 
 sellers are to sell dear, and consequently over what extent 
 of agricultural districts can you reduce the wage question 
 to any assignable law ? 
 
 In my boyhood the wages in Dorsetshire were proverbial 
 for their extreme lowness. You may now drive through 
 half the county without crossing an estate where the ultimate 
 buyers of labour are studious to buy cheap. The land there 
 is now a play-ground and the owners competing with one 
 another, not for profit, but for success in play. Observa- 
 tion will not enable you to arrive at economical results 
 as it will in districts where persons are all occupied with 
 economical pursuits. It would be as useful to generalise 
 from the wages paid to the marker of a tennis court or 
 the keeper of a cricket ground, as to arrive at any result 
 from stating the wages in a country district, in the hands of 
 proprietors who are in fact absentees from those places 
 whence they derive their revenues. 
 
 According to the laws of Political Economy, at a time 
 when prices have fallen and when 5 or 6 years of the 
 worst harvests have taken place, when numerous proprietors 
 have all their estates upon their hands, it would be natural 
 to expect that the wages of agricultural labour would have 
 fallen very considerably. They rose in the coal famine 
 and have gone back in some districts about to the point 
 at which they stood before, but I do not think in any district 
 they have receded to the point at which they stood previous 
 to the making of railroads and the gold discoveries. 
 
 General conclusion a general advance of wages through- 
 out the country from 1850 to 1872. Since 1872 in trades 
 where supply and demand act freely and where buyers of
 
 1883 Paper by Mr. H. R. Grenfell 321 
 
 labour are really anxious to buy cheaply, there has been 
 a very slight fall, in some cases back to the point before 
 the coal famine, but in no case except iron to the point 
 existing before 1850. 
 
 This general advance of wages up to 1872 is partly owing 
 to the laws of supply and demand, free competition and 
 laissez-faire, partly to education, which enables the lowest 
 class of workmen to obtain information where they may 
 get the highest prices for their labour, and partly to what 
 Mr. Goschen calls sentiment, which induces men of realised 
 fortunes to expend a portion of their gains in " benevolent " 
 wages, including therein the building of cottages, letting 
 of gardens and suchlike unremunerative acts. These 
 benevolent acts, I submit, come better from the voluntary 
 funds of those who have means, than by attempting to 
 reverse economical laws by paternal interference with the 
 natural course of things. 
 
 Along with an enormous increase of the wealthy classes 
 there has been a far larger increase of the poorer population, 
 the wage-earning classes earn more wages, and with the 
 fall of prices they can get more for the money. 
 
 I am far from denying that in certain unswept out corners, 
 such as the East of London, the wages may be small, and 
 certain improvident or helpless people of both sexes may 
 be suffering a vast amount of misery ; but if I recollect 
 rightly the wages mentioned by Mr. Foxwell as the earnings 
 of girls were not far from those which in our childhood 
 had to do for a Norfolk or Dorsetshire labourer, the sole 
 bread-winner of a large family, when bread and tea were 
 far dearer than they are now, meat being somewhat cheaper. 
 
 Political Economy does not pretend to teach the whole 
 lesson of human happiness. Even if it does it is not correct 
 to state that because some answer sought for in it is not 
 to be found, then it is not a science. I apologise for taking 
 this line, but I am every day told and reminded that other 
 gospels besides supply and demand are being discovered 
 and I am panting to hear what they are. Mr. Foxwell 
 said that Ricardo looked at things from a Stock Exchange
 
 322 Political Economy Club 1883 
 
 point of view. He looks, and Mr. Cliffe Leslie looked, 
 at things from a purely intellectual point of view. Words, 
 which to Mr. Ricardo described phenomena, understood 
 and observed by him, convey little meaning, or perhaps 
 a wrong meaning to the students of the abstract. Mr. 
 Leslie may differ from Mr. Mill as to the exceptions to the 
 absolute doctrine of laissez-faire, but they both do make 
 exceptions, and both admit that with certain exceptions, 
 laissez-faire should be the rule. Mr. Cliffe Leslie says : 
 " Science never explains the whole order or sequence of 
 things. It is always only a partial explanation. Being 
 always progressive it always leaves much for future dis- 
 covery." And he quotes Sir G. C. Lewis " The anticipa- 
 tions of science are general and merely affirm that in a 
 hypothetical and abstract state of things, a certain cause 
 will produce a certain effect." 
 
 If men are not guided by a desire to get their own bread, 
 then certain predictions founded on that hypothesis are 
 incorrect. According, however, to my own observation, 
 the majority of mankind are seeking their own livelihood 
 as hard as they can, and only a minority are able to live 
 vacantly without any thought of providing for their 
 living. 
 
 If the observation of Mr. Foxwell tends to the belief 
 that the majority of mankind are wholly occupied with 
 other things, then the predictions of sciences connected 
 with those other pursuits will perhaps be fulfilled. 
 
 Two most interesting publications have appeared since 
 we last met. One is the diatribe in the Nineteenth Century. 
 by that modest young statesman Mr. George Russell, against 
 political economy. The other is Professor Sidgwick's book 
 on the same subject. When Lord Monboddo wrote on 
 the then novel doctrine that we were all descended from 
 apes, Sydney Smith said that, when he watched the boys 
 teazing the monkeys at Exeter Change, he had some doubts 
 whether Lord Monboddo might not be right, but a return 
 to his armchair and a perusal of Lord Bacon, Locke, or 
 Sir Isaac Newton reassured him.
 
 1883 Reminiscences by Mr. W. Stebbing 323 
 
 So it is with my mind after reading Mr. Russell's para- 
 doxes. But I am reassured on reading a few pages of 
 Professor Sidgwick. 
 
 REMINISCENCES BY MR. W. STEBBING. 
 
 An old member of the Club may be expected to speak 
 of changes. When I joined, Mr. Newmarch was Treasurer 
 and Lord Courtney Hon. Secretary. The aspect at a 
 monthly meeting was almost of a family party. Members 
 all knew one another, and were familiar with one another's 
 ways and intellectual proclivities. Perhaps we had a 
 little more than our juniors of a sense that the object of 
 our association was the promotion of a science. The theme 
 for a meeting, though it did not propound axioms, illustrated 
 them. Gradually the field both has widened and become 
 more specific. Guests, always welcomed, formerly were 
 rarer. Subjects for debate have altered in kind. A desire 
 is more noticeable to consider questions of immediate interest. 
 They are not set forth in a form to have been regarded by 
 Political Economy at the period of its origin. Certainly 
 the Club would not have cared to give them a hearing. 
 Not unusually now it requests the company of special 
 authorities concerned with them. As naturally and neces- 
 sarily more technical knowledge is exhibited in our dis- 
 cussions, with a larger abundance of figures, the provinces 
 of the Statistical Society and ours tend to be sometimes 
 even a little confused. 
 
 A consequence as well of the liberal introduction of 
 guests, as of the more specific elaboration of a text may be 
 greater length in the speeches. Indirectly the number 
 of speakers diminishes. In the past the excesses in fluency 
 were only occasional ; and an old-fashioned cure was 
 employed. A limitation could be, and was, applied, of so 
 many minutes for the Opener, and a less number for followers. 
 But Authority has grown either too sympathetic, or less 
 courageous. The call of " Time " is become a legend. 
 It is felt also that a learned Economist may be incapable
 
 324 Political Economy Club 
 
 of brevity ; and a rigid rule might lose the audience an 
 illuminating thought. Nor, in any case, I fear, would 
 the most inflexible " Time " law heal the increasing dis- 
 inclination to the performance by a majority of members 
 of a Discussion Society of their duty as such. With a view 
 to some reform I would try a surrender of every fourth 
 meeting to an extempore debate. That mysterious body, 
 the Committee, should select a question of Political Economy, 
 keeping it in its own breast. Our Secretary, who is a 
 Member, having as now, before dinner, arranged for the 
 chair to be taken, should at the end of dinner inform the 
 Chairman of the subject. Thereupon the discussion would 
 proceed as at present, except that there would have been 
 no Openers, as such, and that all the company but the two 
 or three Committee-men would be equally unprepared. 
 In our many excellent debates I have remarked an occasional, 
 and highly justifiable smell of the lamp. On these imagined 
 fourth Wednesdays I believe not a few bright flashes would 
 emanate. They would have the characteristics of happy 
 conversations, in which chance good Fortune always has 
 its part. 
 
 For myself, I am well satisfied with arrangements as 
 they have been, and are. I have always found full latitude 
 for talk during dinner. London contains dining clubs 
 instituted mainly for conversation. Doubtless they fulfil 
 their object well. The table d'hote is only an accident of 
 ours, though an inseparable one. Our members with 
 rare exceptions have been busy men, merchants, judges, 
 and practising barristers, journalists, scientific soldiers, 
 professors, millionaires, Government officials, ministers of 
 State, Bank of England, or private bank directors. When, 
 as for long, we met early, they dropped in from their work. 
 They could not have been present at the discussion without 
 a previous meal. It would be difficult to imagine a more 
 diverse, nondescript assemblage of diners, all, if socially 
 of one class, more on an intellectual level, more willing to 
 listen or talk, and abler. I am tempted to specify the 
 living ; I will name only, alas ! the dead. Think of the
 
 Reminiscences by Lord Courtney 325 
 
 powers, the variety of talk, contributed in manifold improvisa- 
 tion by groups of two, three, four, containing, as it chanced, 
 Henry Sidgwick, Bramwell, Charles Booth, Lubbock, Dilke, 
 Farrer, Bonamy Price, Westlake, Welby, Charles Villiers, 
 Giffen, Chesney, Fawcett ; among whom might suddenly 
 seat himself glad to be with us after a long interval the 
 " G. O. M." ! Nothing seems more transient than dinner 
 table talk ; but the memory may haunt. 
 
 W. STEBBING. 
 
 REMINISCENCES BY LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH. 
 
 I WAS elected a member of the Political Economy Club 
 in April 1869, but I had enjoyed the privilege of attending 
 as a visitor before that time. I find myself recorded as 
 attending two meetings in 1866, and I have a suspicion 
 I might have been present on another occasion. My 
 acquaintance with the club has thus extended over half a 
 century, and as I have been a frequent attendant during 
 most of the years of my membership my memories of its 
 history ought to be richer than I fear they will prove to be. 
 When I was elected one original member survived, Mr. 
 George Warde Norman, and he remained a member until 
 his death in 1882. He attended the meetings not unfre- 
 quently and when he joined the discussion he spoke with 
 such knowledge and mastery of the question under debate 
 as to give him authority and distinction. I shall presently 
 have to speak of others whom I found members of the 
 club and of some who came in after me. 
 
 The first fact suggested by my memory of the club in 
 earlier years is that the attendance at its meetings was smaller 
 than now and its discussions more academic and subdued, 
 someone might say slower. An examination of the Minutes 
 however shews that the contrast is greater among visitors 
 than among members my impression is due to the com- 
 parative fewness of visitors. 
 
 Indeed as the number of members of the club has been 
 slightly increased of late years it would seem that the pro-
 
 326 Political Economy Club 
 
 portion of members attending was not less forty or fifty years 
 ago than it is now. The smaller number of visitors may be 
 partially explained by the fact that a member bringing a 
 guest paid for his presence unless he got the adhesion of 
 three other members present to the invitation, in which 
 case the stranger became the guest of the club. A common 
 result was that before sitting down to dinner a member 
 with a guest whipped up his friends so as to get the necessary 
 four. This was often easily obtained and, partly on this 
 account and partly because the club had at that time a 
 large annual surplus, the rule of payment gradually ceased 
 to be operative and fell into desuetude. Another circum- 
 stance affecting the character of our meetings, was that we 
 sat at a broad oblong table with a chairman at one end and 
 a vice-chairman at the other and a member taking part in 
 the discussion was required to address himself to the end 
 farthest off from him, which gave the meeting somewhat of 
 the appearance of a Council Session. In those days the 
 wine, in the fashion of the time, made a slow progress 
 around the table during the discussion, which again was 
 somewhat inconveniently interrupted by a service of tea 
 and coffee in the midst of it. It may perhaps be added 
 that in the winter months at least muffins accompanied 
 this service, and I have a vivid remembrance of Mr. Mill 
 calling for muffins one evening when the number seemed 
 to run short. Our sittings began at six and the muffins 
 probably made their appearance somewhere about nine. 
 
 I have mentioned Mr. Mill and any note of the members 
 of the club at that time must put him in the first place. 
 He never indeed gave any sign of claiming authority, 
 but it was almost unconsciously conceded to him and it is 
 an illustration of the position he held that, on his death, 
 one enthusiastic friend proposed that the vacancy should 
 never be filled up so that we might always be reminded 
 of the gap among us. It was said that he never allowed 
 any engagement to interfere with his attendance at the 
 club when not away from home and he generally, if not 
 always, took part in a discussion when present. His physical
 
 Reminiscences by Lord Courtney 327 
 
 appearance is well preserved for us in Watts's portrait and 
 in Woolner's statue, in the Temple Embankment Garden, 
 the latter being remarkably faithful especially considering, 
 I believe, Woolner had never seen Mill. Between portrait 
 and statue the observer can realise the thin spare hair, 
 the predominant brow, the mild somewhat weary eyes, 
 the thin lips, the hollow weakish back and long legs. The 
 speech was gentle and equable, ready and lucid and, though 
 far from being incapable of indignation, was habitually 
 most restrained. His deference to others answered to the 
 respect paid to himself. He did not often startle us with 
 paradox or original speculation and indeed our discussions 
 rarely invited such excursions. 
 
 A very different man is the member I must next name as 
 much to the fore. Mr. Newmarch was perhaps a statis- 
 tician rather than an economist, but he was master of econ- 
 omic science, as then apprehended, and very positive in 
 the enunciation and application of its principles. He was 
 voluble and often excited in discussion and it was curious 
 to watch the blood colouring his temples and forehead 
 as his vehemence developed. He had long been secretary, 
 was entire master of its business and was always present. 
 I revert to stricter economists in naming Mr. Bagehot. 
 We met on Friday evenings, not a convenient day for the 
 Editor of the Economist, but he came as often as he could 
 and was always a welcome debater. If I venture to say 
 that he was perhaps too frequently betrayed into the exam- 
 ination of differences and discriminations of the second 
 order every reader of his writings can appreciate without 
 accepting the criticism. His manner of speech was corres- 
 pondingly finical and fastidious but his intervention in 
 discussion was always stimulating and acceptable. I do 
 not think my personal affection for the man leads me wrong 
 when I call Prof. Cairnes the most stalwart of the younger 
 members of the time. His grasp of the principles and 
 processes of economic investigation was firm and tenacious 
 and this was exhibited as much in debate as in his con- 
 sidered essays. I do not know a more admirable illustration
 
 328 Political Economy Club 
 
 of economic thought and inquiry than that apparent in 
 his series of studies of the effects of the gold discoveries 
 of California and Australia upon prices. A minute and 
 careful analysis of the probable theoretical effects was 
 compared with the changes actually resulting in successive 
 years and whilst the prophecies of science were generally 
 vindicated every discrepancy was patiently re-examined 
 and its cause explored. It is deplorable that these Essays 
 should have been long out of print. A few months since 
 I read a review of two books, one in English and the other 
 in French, on the economic effects of the gold production 
 of South Africa, and the conclusion was forced on me that 
 both the authors and the reviewer were ignorant of the 
 studies of Cairnes. It may be mentioned that, though the 
 question of the effect of gold discoveries on prices was 
 repeatedly debated, some of our members, including ex- 
 perienced men from the City, could never be persuaded 
 that the changes which undeniably had occurred in prices 
 should in any way be attributed to an increased production 
 of gold. Another clear and vigorous debater among us 
 was W. R. Greg, author and reviewer the W. R. G. of 
 endless pungent paragraphs on topics of the day. Like 
 his brother-in-law, Bagehot, he had a very large know- 
 ledge of literature and of business, but whilst Bagehot 
 went on refining Greg was prompt and decisive and, if 
 his nail may not always have been the right one, he always 
 hit his nail and hit it on the head. 
 
 Professor Cairnes was one of our professorial members 
 who have adorned and maintained the reputation of the 
 Club. Another contemporary was Professor Cliffe Leslie. 
 He belonged to the historical school whose inquiries are 
 sometimes in danger of degenerating into a mass of un- 
 related facts but his words were always listened to with 
 interest and respect and, as I remember, commanded the 
 attention of Mr. Mill. Thorold Rogers was a master of 
 the history and circumstances of agricultural tendencies, 
 especially in southern and midland England, and his some- 
 what rough and ready manner of inquiry and of speech
 
 Reminiscences by Lord Courtney 329 
 
 might lead an ignorant person to suppose he was listening 
 to the experiences of a Wessex farmer. Jevons, another 
 professorial member, entered the Club after myself and his 
 too early death was a great loss to it, as it was to the nation. 
 His inquiries were as practical in their bearing as they 
 were scientific in conception, whilst his personality was 
 most engaging in its simplicity and its openness. Fawcett 
 entered the Club as an ordinary member but slipped into 
 the contingent of professors when elected to the Cambridge 
 Chair. I need not dwell on the characteristics of my friend. 
 Those who cannot recall, as I do, years of personal intimacy 
 must know him well from Leslie Stephen's biography. 
 Two more names I would commemorate in this paragraph. 
 The well-loved Henry Sidgwick did not hold a professorial 
 chair and was ineligible in that category, but he had written 
 on the subject and was received among us with all possible 
 honour and respect. I am afraid some extracts from his 
 journal show that now and then a meeting fell below the 
 high standard of his expectations. Jacob Waley was 
 Professor in University College when elected in June 1865, 
 but the office did not then qualify him to be an Honorary 
 member and he did not become such. He brought to the 
 discussions of the Club ample knowledge and a very fine 
 intelligence and it was but a slight acknowledgment of the 
 honour and respect we all paid him that he was called to 
 be secretary of the Club shortly before his too early death. 
 When I entered the Club Mr. Baron Bramwell assiduously 
 frequented it, and he remained in pretty constant attend- 
 ance till his death, generally engaging in discussions. The 
 facts and arguments of Political Economy were very much 
 to his liking and the rest of us enjoyed what may be called 
 the by-play of a powerful mind. It is an illustration of 
 his relish for Economics that he desired to become a member 
 of the Bimetallic Commission, a desire which might have 
 been gratified had it been known before the Commission 
 was made up. Lord Romilly was another judge belonging 
 to the Club, but he left it a year or two after I joined. Lord 
 Moulton became a member before he was raised to the
 
 33 Political Economy Club 
 
 Bench, but War duties have latterly prevented his attend- 
 ance and the judicial element has been reinforced among 
 us by the recent election of Lord Sumner. Our rule makes 
 an ordinary member an Honorary member on becoming 
 a Cabinet Minister and this has always given us a row of 
 distinguished politicians, more or less intermittent in 
 service. Mr. Lowe (Lord Sherbrooke) came fairly often 
 and was, all may be sure, a very incisive debater. Mr. 
 Goschen about as frequent and as acute. Mr. Gladstone 
 could be only an occasional visitor, but Mr. Charles Villiers 
 was fairly constant in attendance and debate and kept 
 up his service to an advanced period of his prolonged life. 
 Sir Charles Dilke practically retired for a time but resumed 
 attendance when he re-entered Parliament. I may mention 
 in connection with names thus serving the State two personal 
 friends who joined the Club for a couple of years or so, 
 Frederic Harrison and John, now Viscount Morley. 
 
 The City has furnished the Club with a regular supply 
 of men versed in banking and commerce. I have already 
 mentioned Mr. Norman, an original member. Lord Over- 
 stone was a member when I joined but he retired a year 
 or two afterwards when we made him an Honorary member, 
 the first and only time of our taking such action. 1 It was 
 understood that he retired because growing Conservatism 
 put him out of sympathy with the mild daring of a younger 
 generation. Mr. Hubbard, the first Lord Addington, was 
 a fairly regular attendant and Sir John Lubbock (Lord 
 Avebury) gave us the charm of his company until later 
 years, when his multifarious engagements allowed us to 
 see him but seldom. Mr. Hucks Gibbs (Lord Aldenham) 
 and Mr. H. R. Grenfell were Bank Directors who were 
 also keen Bimetallists, and they distinguished themselves 
 in the sharp debates we had over different aspects of Bimetal- 
 lism. I have refrained from referring to existing members 
 and I will only add that the City still gives us a goodly 
 contingent. 
 
 The last category I will mention is supplied by the Civil 
 * [See, however, p. xviii. H. H.]
 
 Reminiscences by Lord Courtney 331 
 
 Service. Mr. Chadwick " assiduous, .much abused, and 
 truly useful Mr. Chadwick " as Carlyle calls him was long 
 the Doyen of this class among us ; another of some standing 
 was Mr. Herman Merivale who in earlier life had been 
 Oxford Professor of Political Economy ; Mr. W. T. Thornton, 
 of the India Office, was a third, the earnest advocate of a 
 peasant proprietary and one of the two iconoclasts who 
 were supposed to have pulled down the idol of the Wages 
 Fund. Lord Welby long represented the Treasury, and up 
 to the later years of his life frequently attended, but his 
 friends had some reason for their complaint that he very 
 rarely joined in our discussions. Yet another was Sir 
 Henry (Lord) Thring, quick, ready, eager, one of the most 
 cock-sure yet trustworthy of men ; Lord Farrer and Sir 
 Robert Giffen came from the Board of Trade. Sir Robert 
 with his great store of knowledge was a very constant 
 attendant, coming in his later years when he had retired 
 to Brighton and leaving a little before our sitting ended 
 to catch his last train. The two differed in that Giffen 
 stiffened in his opinions and, one may say, became rather 
 hot than argumentative in expressing them, whilst Farrer, 
 equally alert was almost more open minded as he grew 
 older. Both were agreed as Monometallists in maintaining 
 the Gold Standard, in this respect being in the opposite 
 camp to Sir Louis Mallet, also originally in the Board of 
 Trade, whose views had doubtless been much influenced 
 by his experience at the India Office. Sir Louis who might 
 well be claimed the foremost disciple among us of Cobden 
 and of Frederic Bastiat represented almost hereditary 
 interest in the Club, his father J. L. Mallet having been an 
 original member and his eldest son Bernard Mallet, now 
 for some years Honorary Secretary, and through his zeal 
 and devotion materially maintaining the interest and 
 vitality of our gatherings. 
 
 I remember Herbert Spencer once asking me whether 
 we had not exhausted the possible questions of Political 
 Economy so that an old member might feel inclined to 
 retire. For myself I repudiated this suggestion of satiety.
 
 332 Political Economy Club 
 
 The circumstances of the Economic Association of men 
 and of nations continuously vary, and the range of specu- 
 lation of economists is in equally constant flux. Inter- 
 national trade, banking, currency, the partition of taxation, 
 poor laws, the conditions of land tenure, the regulation 
 of monopolies, capital and labour, the organization and 
 functions of the State present ever changing problems 
 which moreover differ as we pass from one nation to another. 
 The perpetually shifting novelty of economic inquiries 
 was apparent enough before the War began, as will be 
 confessed by anyone who tries to realize the mental attitude 
 of economists at twenty years' stages from the foundation 
 of the Club, 1821, 41, 61, 81, and 1901. The War has 
 upset many of the fundamental ideas before accepted, nor 
 will anyone pretend to say what further bouleversement 
 is possible or to gauge the limits of thought and action 
 that will prevail after the War is over. To subsequent 
 men we must leave the conduct and determination of 
 subsequent questions, resting assured that the members of 
 the Political Economy Club will have an abundance of 
 material for their study and modestly confident that they 
 will maintain in the future the best characteristics of the 
 past.
 
 SUBSTANCE OF OPENING REMARKS BY 
 SIR J. MACDONELL ON STH JULY, 1905. 
 
 WHAT has the Political Economy Club done since 1821 ? 
 The answer might be " Just what Political Economy has 
 done since that date," for the history of the Club may be 
 said to be the history of Political Economy since 1821, at 
 all events, in England. Fortunately or unfortunately the 
 Club has scanty records of its proceedings. There are no 
 reports of the discussions except a few notes made by one 
 or two members ; there does not exist, so far as I know, even 
 a complete collection of the synopses of the subjects of 
 discussion proposed by the members. But from the titles 
 of the subjects of debate might be extracted the outlines 
 of the history and development of the science for little short 
 of a century. All the great changes in the methods and 
 applications and doctrines of the science are reflected in 
 the titles of the subjects*. Almost every statute and measure 
 of great economical importance for three-quarters of a 
 century the Poor Law of 1834, the Factory Acts, the Bank 
 Acts, the repeal of the Corn Laws and the Navigation Laws, 
 the Combination Laws have been here discussed, and 
 generally by experts. Every Budget containing novelties 
 has run the gauntlet of criticism here, and almost every 
 experiment in taxation has been preceded by frank and not 
 unintelligent criticism. I suppose that it will be agreed that 
 a discussion of value by Ricardo or Malthus or Senior or 
 
 333
 
 334 Political Economy Club 
 
 Jevons ; of the methods of economical science and its 
 relations to ethics by John Mill, Professor Cairnes, or Pro- 
 fessor Sidgwick ; of the principles and methods of finance 
 by Gladstone, Lowe, or Spring Rice ; of administration by 
 Chadwick and Fairer, of prices by Tooke or Newmarch 
 would be as instructive as any book, and such discussions 
 here abounded. 
 
 The Club has, in a sense, collaborated in the preparation 
 of most of the chief works on Political Economy which have 
 appeared in this country since 1821. The ablest of their 
 authors have not disdained to take the Club into their 
 confidence as to their difficulties, to propound problems, 
 to show their opinions in the making, and, probably, to 
 profit by the debates. To take, for example, Mr. Mill's 
 Essays on some unsettled questions of Political Economy, 
 composed about 1829-30, or his great work published in 
 1848, we find in the minutes traces of the discussion of some 
 of the chief problems investigated therein. No part of 
 Mr. Mill's book has been more criticised and censured than 
 the famous chapter (Book I. c. v.) in which he lays down 
 certain fundamental propositions as to capital and demand 
 for commodities and labour. We find these matters debated 
 several times. If Mr. Mill went wrong, as Jevons and other 
 critics contend, it was not for want of warning. Turn to 
 Mr. Mill's chapter on Demand and Supply, and you will see 
 that he must have derived aid from a debate in 1841 shortly 
 before the publication of his work. 
 
 The question discussed was the definition of demand, 
 which had been discussed in 1824 (7th April). " Mill 
 developed his argument, but without his usual precision. 
 He proposed the definition ' Quantity which there is power 
 and will to purchase,' but in terms not quite so clear,
 
 Paper by Sir J. Macdonell 335 
 
 M c Culloch and Torrens were against him. Charles Buller 
 showed very cleverly that the word was relative to supply 
 and that supply being undoubtedly a quantity, demand must 
 also be a quantity ; that one cannot say that there is a 
 supply of 120 apples and a demand of only 100 at a given 
 moment, at a given price, in a given market." * I have a 
 suspicion that next morning after that debate Mill wrote 
 or rewrote one or two of the paragraphs in that famous 
 chapter. Then, too, as to the members of the Club, almost 
 every writer on economics of distinction beginning with 
 Ricardo, Malthus and James Mill has belonged to the Club, 
 and has taken part in its discussion. No fewer than seven 
 Chancellors of the Exchequer, the first being Lord Althorp, 
 have been among the members, and most of them have taken 
 an active part in the debates. Time would fail me to tell 
 of the Governors of the Bank of England, the bankers, and 
 great merchants who have been members. But I may 
 remind you of a few publicists, men of letters and states- 
 men of whom the Club can boast as having belonged to it : 
 Authors such as James and John Mill ; Tooke ; Grote ; 
 Ricardo ; Colonel Torrens ; Perronet Thompson ; Zachary 
 Macaulay ; Nassau Senior ; M c Culloch ; Porter ; Whateley ; 
 W. R. Greg ; Herman Men vale ; Fawcett ; Buckle ; Bagehot; 
 Jevons ; Waley ; Dudley Baxter ; Hare ; McLennan ; Sir 
 James Caird ; Professor Cairnes ; Thorold Rogers ; Cliffe- 
 Leslie ; Chadwick ; Administrators and statesmen and men 
 of affairs, such as Sir Henry Parnell ; C. Buller ; Lord Over- 
 stone ; Althorpe ; Earl Grey ; Cornewall Lewis ; Villiers ; 
 Granville ; Lowe ; Gladstone ; Dufferin ; Goschen ; 
 Childers ; Kimberley ; Stafford Northcote ; Rowland Hill ; 
 Harcourt ; Chadwick ; Mundella ; Judges such as Romilly, 
 
 1 See p. 279.
 
 336 Political Economy Club 
 
 Stephen, and Bramwell. 1 Truly a goodly company ! Can 
 any Club boast of a better ? 
 
 In reading the Minutes of the Society, I have been tempted 
 to think that I was witnessing the construction of a vast 
 treatise on the science of political economy, an encyclopaedia 
 of Staatswissenschaft more comprehensive than was ever 
 planned by the most laborious German ; a treatise to which 
 all experts for nearly a century have been contributors ; 
 a treatise covering the whole field of economics ; a treatise 
 marred only by one defect it is a treatise consisting of 
 queries without answers, the answers given by the collective 
 wisdom of the Club having perished. Let me indicate what 
 the contents of the first chapter of my hypothetical volume 
 would be Chapter I. 
 
 What is the most convenient definition of Political 
 Economy ? opened by Mr. Nassau Senior. What are the 
 limits within which the science of political economy is most 
 conveniently confined ? Is political science a science a 
 priori or what is commonly called a science of facts ? (opened 
 by J. Mill). Is there really such a thing as economic law ? 
 What are the definitions of Wealth, Value, Labour, Wages, 
 Capital, Land, Profit ? I am tempted to go further and say 
 that my imaginary volume would as to some matters (parti- 
 cularly currency) raise queries, ventilate and emphasise 
 difficulties, which, so far as I know, are not raised in any 
 of the best known treatises. 
 
 The Club was founded, as you know, in 1821. It is worth 
 recalling the state of things at that time. The movement 
 in favour of free trade was gaining strength. The petition 
 of the merchants of London of 1820, in favour of free trade, 
 asserting that " freedom from restraint is calculated to give 
 1 In later years Lord Moulton and Lord Sumner.
 
 Paper by Sir J . Macdonell 337 
 
 the utmost extension to foreign trade, and the best direction 
 to the capital and industry of the country," and that " the 
 maxim of buying in the cheapest market and selling in the 
 dearest, which regulates every merchant in his industrial 
 dealings is strictly applicable as the best rule for the trade 
 of the whole nation " this petition was the work of Mr. 
 Tooke, the founder of the Club, and had been presented by 
 Mr. Alexander Baring to the House of Commons. The 
 state of the currency was peculiar. The report of the 
 Bullion Committee had appeared in 1810. Peel's Act of 
 1819, resuming cash payments, had been accompanied by a 
 fall of prices. Pauperism was rife. Discontent was great. 
 Several works of great importance on Political Economy 
 had just been published or were about to appear. Ricardo's 
 Principles of Political Economy and Taxation dates from 
 1817. James Mill's Elements appeared 1821. Torrens's 
 Essay on The Production of Wealth in the same year. Tooke's 
 great work on the History of Prices in 1823. The influence 
 of Bentham was at its height. The Westminster Review, his 
 organ, dates from 1823. Political Economy, then in its 
 infancy, was the object of hostility, especially on the part 
 of the Owenites, and one of the objects of the Club was to 
 repel these attacks. 
 
 I might refer as an illustration of the antipathy to an 
 incident mentioned in Mr. Mallet's diary. 1 The authorities 
 at King's College, including Sir Robert Inglis, were averse 
 to appointing a successor to Nassau Senior, as Professor of 
 Political Economy, holding that there was no such science. 
 Eventually Jones, author of the well-known book on Rent, 
 was appointed. Even then Sir Robert Inglis wished that 
 the word Political Economy should be sunk, and Political 
 
 1 Page 249.
 
 338 Political Economy Club 
 
 Philosophy substituted ; but Jones said that, if the latter 
 title were adopted, he should feel himself at liberty to treat 
 of political institutions perhaps the ballot which so 
 alarmed the Conservatives that they gave way. 
 
 If I were composing a complete history of the Club, I 
 should mention that, unknown to any of its members, there 
 appeared in Paris in 1822 an obscure opuscule by a little 
 known professor of Mathematics, Auguste Comte, which was 
 to affect not a little Political Economy. 
 
 The nucleus or germ of the Club was a small group of men 
 interested in economics who met at Ricardo's house for the 
 discussion of economical subjects (Bain, 198). The original 
 members included Mr. S. C. Holland, a partner in Baring 
 & Co. ; Colonel Torrens, the well-known economist ; Sir 
 George Larpent, who wrote and published in favour of 
 protecting West Indian sugar ; Mr. Norman, the banker ; 
 Mr. Tooke ; Mr. Mallet ; Mr. Mushet of the Mint, and Mr. 
 Cowell. At the second meeting attended Ricardo and 
 Malthus ; Entwistle ; Warburton [" Philosopher War- 
 burton "], one of the founders of London University ; Mr. 
 Brown ; Maberly of the General Post Office ; and Mr. 
 Grote. I cannot speak of these founders without admiration. 
 They were a group of men not only able and sagacious, but 
 marked by great mental integrity ; a strong vigorous race, 
 nothing flabby about them ; hard shell economists, believing 
 that in the affairs of life you could have no better guide than 
 reason and should be prepared to go whithersoever it led. 
 They were, too, men with distinct opinions which they 
 desired to see prevail. They wanted to overthrow laws 
 which they believed to be mischievous. They desired 
 freedom of trade. The object of the Club was not purely 
 scientific or critical. It had distinct practical aims. " The
 
 Paper by Sir J. Macdonell 339 
 
 members of this Society will regard their own mutual 
 instruction, and the diffusion among others of just principles 
 of Political Economy as a real and important obligation." 
 Not that they were by any means all of one mind. 
 
 More of the members were opposed to the Corn Laws. 
 But even as to this point there was not unanimity. A 
 diarist in 1832 writes with reference to a debate on the 
 repeal of the Corn Laws : " Malthus evidently thought it a 
 very hazardous experiment, but M c Culloch was ready to 
 turn the whole country into one vast manufacturing district, 
 filled with smoke and steam engines and radical weavers and 
 to set adrift all the gentlemen and farmers now constituting 
 our agricultural population. Nor was Tooke at all startled 
 by this beau ideal of a country supplied from the fertile land 
 of North America and Russian Poland ; only that he did 
 not think it likely to be realised." * In 1843 Sir George 
 Larpent raised the question whether goods coming from 
 our colonies ought to be protected, and answered the question 
 in the negative. 
 
 " M c Culloch, pour faire causer sans doute, a soutenu que la 
 surete du pays et 1'avantage que les colonies donneraient 
 d'un commerce etendu peuvent justifier un a vantage des 
 droits, les gouvernements etrangers pouvant nous priver 
 d' articles qui comme le coton sont necessaires." 2 At the 
 next meeting much the same question was raised by 
 M c Culloch : Were differential duties in any circumstances 
 justifiable ? According to him, the interest of the future 
 and the security of the riches of the country justify pro- 
 tective duties. If cotton could be grown in England but 
 25 per cent, dearer, he would impose a duty on American 
 cotton to prevent its importation. He is not in favour of 
 *Page 233. 'Page 285.
 
 34 Political Economy Club 
 
 any absolute principle ; absolute commercial free trade is 
 nonsense. He would have a 55. duty on corn, because 
 Russia and Prussia from which nine-tenths of the importation 
 comes might by prohibiting exportation dominate England. 
 . . . Merivale admits the possibility of the indirect advantages 
 of the mercantile system, and, for example, to the United 
 States in establishing some large towns where civilisation 
 may be maintained or flourish. But the immediate evils 
 of the system are greater. I pointed out that M^ulloch 
 mixed politics with economy, as A. Smith had done in 
 approving of the Navigation Laws. As to the political 
 question, I differed absolutely from him, thinking that the 
 best way of avoiding the jealousy of foreign countries and 
 war was to keep strictly to free trade. . . . Porter said 
 nothing. He told me afterwards that he was too disgusted 
 with the absurdities aired by M^ulloch." 1 
 
 The life of the Club may be roughly divided into three 
 periods : 
 
 1821 to 1846 ; 1846 to 1876 ; 1876 to the present time. 
 You will understand my not saying much about the 
 last of the three periods ; I purposely abstain from referring 
 to present questions or to living men. The first period may 
 be variously described as the age of principles or dogma ; 
 the members had principles though not the same principles ; 
 they were anxious to diffuse " just principles," to " rectify 
 any mistakes," to refute " erroneous doctrines," and to 
 " limit the influence of hurtful publications." They were 
 missionaries and proselytisers. I might also describe it as 
 the age of laissez faire, " or the age of individualism " ; the 
 age when it was believed that every person is the best judge 
 of his own happiness ; when State intervention was regarded 
 
 1 Page 286.
 
 Paper by Sir J. Macdonell 341 
 
 as presumably stupid and mischievous. I might also 
 speak of it as the age when there was the over-shadowing 
 influence of three doctrines affecting almost all questions ; 
 those of Ricardo as to value and labour, and as to rents, and 
 that of Malthus as to population. They were for that time 
 what evolution and Darwin's teaching have been to a later 
 generation. 
 
 I have analysed the subjects for discussion from 1821 to 
 1846. They were in all about 242. Now, of these about 
 86 or over 35 per cent, were abstract questions. Of course 
 it is sometimes a little difficult to say what is an abstract, 
 what a concrete, question. But I do not think that anyone 
 would classify the questions with very different results 
 from those which I state. Next in point of number come 
 practical currency questions, due not merely to the fact that 
 several of the members were bankers, but also to the fact 
 that the country had suffered from the evils of a defective 
 currency, and that until the passing of Peel's Acts there was 
 a striving after something better. Currency doctors 
 abounded, and the Club had its store of them. I find 
 no fewer than thirty-five queries relative to currency. That 
 is to say, about 14 per cent, of the whole. It is needless to 
 say that the subject of the Corn Laws was often discussed. 
 Some twelve queries relate thereto. The condition of the 
 poor in England was bad ; the doctrines of Malthus seemed 
 to make the outlook still more dismal ; and I find that 
 the Poor Law was discussed no fewer than seven times 
 between 1821 and 1846, the kindred subject of population 
 five times, while taxation was the subject of seven questions. 
 The omissions are scarcely less significant and instructive. 
 There was a discussion on the remuneration of agricultural 
 labourers. There were frequent discussions on the relation
 
 342 Political Economy Club 
 
 of wages to profit and capital. Three questions relate to 
 factory legislation then presenting itself as a formidable 
 difficulty in the way of the advocates of laissez faire ; the 
 touchstone, in fact, of the old classical political economy. 
 
 The subject of the importation of Irish labourers earning 
 low wages into England was much discussed. But I find 
 few references to the relations of capital and labour in 
 the sense in which we now understand it little as to 
 shortening hours of work, almost nothing as to trade 
 unions or as to combinations. 
 
 Another peculiarity of this time is to be noted. I have 
 mentioned here that as originally constituted the Club was 
 intended to do more than discuss it was to diffuse sound 
 teaching, and to eradicate economical errors. Some of the 
 members had ambitious aspirations. They hoped that the 
 Club would be constructive as well as critical. In 1828, at 
 the instance of Colonel Torrens, a series of definitions covering 
 a large part of the field of Political Economy, was proposed, 
 and one or two of them received the approval of the Club. 
 Some of the members, it is clear, intended to hall-mark the 
 real article, so as to distinguish it from the cheap electro- 
 plate of demagogues such as Cobbett or visionaries such as 
 Owen. Some members had in view a great future for the 
 Club. " We hope in time to raise ourselves from a Club to 
 the dignity of an Academy and become a learned body with 
 ever increasing members " (Ricardo). In 1831 the Club was 
 discussing, at the instance of Mr. Nassau Senior, the question 
 " Would it be practicable and advantageous to form a 
 society on an extended scale for the improvement and 
 diffusion of Political Economy ; and how it should be set 
 about ? " Fortunately, as I think for the interests of the 
 Club nothing came of those ambitious suggestions. Had it
 
 Paper by Sir J . Macdonell 343 
 
 been turned into an academy it would probably long ago 
 have perished of excess of dignity and torpor. 
 
 The second period 1846-1871 is not easily described. 
 In the discussions (170 in number) a change is to be noted. 
 Undoubtedly some of the stalwarts of laissez faire remained. 
 The Old Guard of individualists was joined by others. I 
 cannot help naming one in particular, the late Mr. New- 
 march, who became a member in 1852 ; a speaker of con- 
 summate lucidity and perspicuity, one who would have 
 adorned any legislative assembly. I might name also as a 
 representative of this school Lord Farrer, who became a 
 member in 1864. I find references in the subjects for 
 discussion to the " strict rules of Political Economy," mean- 
 ing no legislative interference with conduct. But there had 
 joined the Club one or two members with disruptive ten- 
 dencies ; men who saw things differently from the purists 
 of laissez faire ; and who understood that absence of legis- 
 lative interference does not necessarily mean individual 
 liberty. I name in particular the late Sir E. Chadwick, who 
 was elected in 1834 and who was a member up to 1889. It 
 was his fate to be at first an innovator, to outlive that role, 
 and to end by being treated as a spent prophet. It is one 
 of the few unquestioned privileges of old age to be a bore, 
 and this great man had, I fear, discounted too freely, too 
 early, and too heavily this privilege. Certainly his remarks 
 when I joined the Club were not always listened to with the 
 attention which they merited. One reason was that he 
 babbled too much, not of green fields, but of sewage. I 
 remember Lord Farrer when presiding calling Mr. Chadwick 
 to order and in tones of thunder saying, " The subject is 
 taxation, not drainage." But one cannot read the list of 
 subjects which he mooted without seeing that his was a
 
 344 Political Economy Club 
 
 seminal mind ; that he imported into the discussion new 
 ideas ; and that he broke up the dogmatism of earlier times. 
 I should like also to name another member with disruptive 
 revolutionary influence, I mean the late Mr. W. Thornton. 
 I do not know whether his books now count for much. 
 They were diffuse as was his talk. But he was a useful 
 solvent and had the art of putting questions disconcerting 
 to the dogmatic spirit, and he had a vision, temperate, of a 
 world that was to come more questions than he himself 
 could answer. In this period the relations of employers 
 and workmen, strikes, hours of work, trades unions, and 
 combination began to assume a degree of prominence un- 
 known in the previous quarter. I find no fewer than ten 
 discussions, or about 6 per cent., on these points. Doubtless 
 the discussions were in a very different spirit from the 
 earlier debates. No one would have taken up the position 
 which Mr. Prevost says M c Culloch maintained in 1841 : 
 " M c Culloch a ete de la derniere absurdite, pretendant 
 que 1' education donnee aux ouvriers les encouragerait a la 
 revolte, et qu'ils n'avaient aucune chance de s'avancer." l 
 
 The land question comes to the front also. The Irish 
 Land Act is looming on the horizon, the relations of land- 
 lord and tenant being the frequent subject of debate. In 
 one way or another the question is brought up in some ten 
 different forms ; and in the form of the questions may be 
 detected the presence of growing doubts whether the principle 
 Qilaissezfaire, or freedom of contract works full justice. As 
 the quarter of a century conies to its close, I note that the 
 word " regulation " appears in the questions. Mr. Greg 
 asks (1872) : " Is open competition the universal and un- 
 mixed economic good it is usually represented to be ? " 
 
 1 See p. 280.
 
 Paper by Sir J. Macdonell 345 
 
 Mr. Chad wick is in 1851 mooting municipal ownership of 
 water, in 1857 the maintenance of wages irrespective of 
 number of labourers and in 1869 compulsory education. 
 I should be tempted to call this period in the life of the Club 
 the age of " collectivism," but for the fact that this term 
 was born later and has associations foreign to 1846-1871. 
 I might speak of it as a time when the Club began to nibble 
 at socialism. I might describe it as a period of transition. 
 If I called the first the age of faith, I might call the second 
 the age of doubt, unsettlement, or disintegration. If the 
 first was a time when James Mill, Ricardo, Malthus, Tooke, 
 M c Culloch were chief in debate, the second was a time when 
 John Mill, Chad wick, Thornton, Lowe, Senior, Farrer were 
 prominent in the discussions. 
 
 I come to the third period 1876 to 1901. But I say little 
 as to matters later than 1882. Between 1876 and 1882 
 some seventy-five questions were discussed. I note among 
 these characteristics : a return to abstract questions- 
 eleven out of seventy-five or nearly 15 per cent. There 
 crop up questions indicative of further disintegration and 
 unrest ; queries which suggest that the old classical political 
 economy is on its trial ; questions such as these : Mr. 
 Thornton asks in 1878, " Is there really such a thing as 
 economic law ? " Lord Farrer asks in 1880, " What is the 
 proper meaning of freedom of contract ? " Mr. Morley 
 asks, " Can the economist ever approve of the attempt of 
 an industrial class to overrule the freedom of action of the 
 individual? " In 1882 the present Prime Minister 1 raises 
 the question, " What relation does the Ricardian theory of 
 rent bear to the actual economic facts in England and 
 Scotland ? " and gives an answer unfavourable to the value 
 x Mr. A. J. Balfour.
 
 346 Political Economy Club 
 
 of that theory. Currency falls into a secondary place. 
 Still it is discussed five times. Bimetallism comes to the 
 front. At first there were only two bimetallic heretics, 
 Mr. Grenfell and Lord Aldenham ; and I remember Mr. 
 Grenfell used to quote with good humour the saying of one 
 of his enemies that only one of the two was allowed out at 
 the same time. But they stuck to their faith and were 
 joined by others. 
 
 1883 to the present time. You will not expect me to say 
 much as to this period, too near our own day to permit of 
 absolute frankness. I merely note, without approval or 
 condemnation, one or two characteristics, a growing rarity 
 of purely abstract questions, and, so far, a departure from 
 the oldest traditions of the Club ; a proneness to select 
 comparatively small questions and incidents of the day as 
 the basis of discussion ; a proclivity for highly technical 
 topics treated from the point of view of the expert. I 
 ventured to call the first period the age of principles ; the 
 second the time of transition ; I might describe the third 
 as the period of socialism without doctrines. I might, some 
 would say, more accurately define it as a time of pacific 
 anarchy. It is as if a mercantile house of long standing, once 
 owning ocean-going vessels and making great ventures across 
 the seas, had, sobered by age, quitted this hazardous business 
 and gone into the safer coasting trade. 
 
 The third period is marked by greater modesty than its 
 predecessors. Mr. Lowe said, in 1876, that the work of 
 Political Economy seemed nearly done. The discussions 
 in this period would suggest that it has only begun. In 
 1830 the Club often came to conclusions about three or four 
 weighty topics in an evening. 
 
 The discussions were informal and colloquial. The theory,
 
 Paper by Sir J. Macdonell 347 
 
 I was informed by my elders, was that, in the absence of 
 the member who had promised to open the debate, any one 
 present, if called upon, was bound to do so. Later, set 
 speeches became more common, with results not for the 
 best. 
 
 The dominant figures of the time were Newmarch, Court- 
 ney, Giffen and Thorold Rogers, all luminous debaters, none 
 more so than Newmarch. Pretty frequently intervened 
 Mr. A. Sidgwick, and always so as to give the discussion a 
 new turn ; a master of brilliant and, if I might add, rasping 
 phrase ; an unsparing critic of loose reasoning. I have dim 
 recollections of sharp passages of arms between him and 
 Thorold Rogers, whose type of aggressive Radicalism was 
 repugnant to Sidgwick. I remember also tension in the 
 relations between Bramwell and Rogers. " If what he says 
 of the House of Lords is all true, I am not fit to be a member 
 of this Club ; if it is not true, then he is not fit to be a 
 member," Bramwell was overheard saying. I recall at 
 this period the prevalence of Indian subjects for discussion 
 based on Indian experience, introduced chiefly by two or 
 three active members, particularly Mr. Justice West and 
 Sir William Lee Warner. 
 
 Nowadays one subject is generally found too much for 
 debate. 
 
 To the question what has the Political Economy Club 
 done since 1821, I would answer : 
 
 (1) That it has followed faithfully not the less faithfully 
 because unconsciously the evolution and development of 
 the science since Ricardo's time ; in the minute book are 
 indicated the great events in that history. 
 
 (2) It has kept the open door for heretics. It has always 
 given them fair play ; it has always welcomed them. By
 
 348 Political Economy Club 
 
 heresy, the world and churches are saved. By heresy, freely 
 encouraged, this Club has been kept particular, living, and 
 effective. 
 
 (3) For three-quarters of a century it has been a common 
 meeting-ground of theorists and practical men. Each has 
 profited by the experience of the other. It has kept the 
 open door for their profitable intercourse. There has been 
 a brisk barter of speculations and facts. 
 
 (4) The Club, too, has kept the open door between 
 economics and ethics ; " the reunion of morals and econo- 
 mics " of which we now hear much is a misleading phrase. 
 But it recalls a common error ; and in this Club, where men 
 of affairs of all varieties meet students of most subjects, 
 facts have been viewed as they are ; moral forces have not 
 been overlooked ; certainly in discussions in which Mr. Mill 
 or Professor Sidgwick shared there could be little dis- 
 position to treat as mere " friction " or " disturbing in- 
 fluences " what may in certain circumstances be the really 
 dominant forces. 
 
 (5) The Club has furnished for nearly a hundred years a 
 special, a highly special jury, before which every economical 
 question has been frankly discussed ; a tribunal before 
 which every one has had a fair hearing. What the Club 
 has not done is a query which would open up a large theme. 
 But I have said enough to justify me in saying that it has 
 done much and has amply justified the hopes of the men who 
 founded it.
 
 CONCLUSION 
 
 BY MR. HENRY HIGGS. 
 
 THE historian of a Society so intimate as the Political 
 Economy Club is hedged round by many limitations. He 
 may not lightly break in upon the deliberate privacy of its 
 conversations. He may not recall of his own knowledge 
 anything but good of the dead, anything at all of the living. 
 Concerned with members of the Club in that capacity only, 
 he is shut off from the spacious field of what they have 
 done and said elsewhere. Beyond the bald chronicle of 
 dates, names, and business recorded in the minutes (which 
 is practically all the archives contain), little is left for him 
 but to collect such memories of the past as can be rescued 
 from oblivion. The historical survey of the Club by the 
 late Sir John Macdonell, furnished to him in February of 
 this year, a few weeks before the death of its author, has 
 been substituted at the last moment for his own narrative. 
 In addition to its intrinsic value and interest this contri- 
 bution conforms to the underlying purpose of this volume 
 to resuscitate fragments of Club intercourse in the past. 
 For the most part, in these memorials they are the dead 
 who speak and breathe, on the whole, a spirit of pride and 
 affection which should prove stimulating to present and 
 future members. 
 
 A few collections and recollections may be added from 
 
 349
 
 35 Political Economy Club 
 
 various sources. When I was elected to the Club, on the 
 proposal of Professor Foxwell, seconded by Courtney, in 1896, 
 Gladstone, C. P. Villiers, and Goschen were still members, 
 but had ceased to attend. Goschen, writing in 1905, said : 
 " My latest recollection of the Club is my consternation 
 that Mundella should have been elected to it. It seemed 
 to me that in that act the strict economic character of the 
 Club had been violated. The history might be made a 
 record of the changes in the character of its members from 
 Ricardo, Newmarch, etc., down to some of the soft levities 
 of the present day." These shafts must be regarded as 
 levelled at the tenets and not the personalities of his fellow- 
 members. 
 
 Why Goschen, Courtney, Macdonell, and other severe 
 judges thought so highly of Newmarch is not clear to those 
 who know only his writings. It may be due to the tre- 
 mendous energy of the man, his mastery of his business as 
 a Bank Manager, and the downright vigour and rigour of 
 an old-style, hard-headed economist. An anecdote, con- 
 tributed by the late Sir Inglis Palgrave, is characteristic 
 both of Newmarch and of the heat which has now so com- 
 pletely disappeared from our conversations. When Pal- 
 grave was editing the Economist he attended the Club more 
 than once at the invitation of Newmarch. At one of these 
 dinners the Governor of the Bank of England, past or 
 present (probably Horsley Palmer or Thomson Hankey), 
 was pluming himself on the way in which the Bank had 
 passed through the crisis of 1866 without infringing the 
 Act of 1844. The amount of Bank Notes held during the 
 worst time then was exceedingly small. Palgrave had 
 himself rather wondered how, considering the amount of 
 Notes which they must have had in their tills at their
 
 Conclusion 351 
 
 various country branches at Manchester, Birmingham, 
 Liverpool, and elsewhere, they had any left for Thread- 
 needle Street. Newmarch soon settled the question. He 
 took up the thread of discussion as the Governor left it. 
 Casting aside his aspirates in his excitement, he said : " You 
 did not break the Act, and I'll tell you 'ow you did it. You 
 sent the 'at round Lombard Street every night, and we all 
 paid in all the Bank Notes that we had, and we drew them 
 out again the next morning. That's 'ow you did it." 
 
 Bagehot was another of Newmarch's admirers. Mrs. 
 Bagehot writes : "I know Walter had a high opinion of 
 Mr. Newmarch, and got him to write for the Economist. 
 Mr. Newmarch wrote the yearly Commercial History for the 
 Economist till he died. Walter was no orator, and I re- 
 member asking Mr. Greg once how he spoke at the Political 
 Economy Club meetings, and he answered, ' Much better 
 than I expected.' ' His sister, Mrs. Barrington, says : 
 " Bagehot had for some years belonged to the Political 
 Economy Club and found the debates which took place 
 after the dinners given by the Club very suggestive. Many 
 ideas which found expression in the Economic Studies most 
 probably germinated during the discussions of this Society. 
 Bagehot's mind was ever alert in seizing a suggestion, and 
 such suggestions were ever fruitful in creating an original 
 thought." * 
 
 I had many interesting talks at the Club and elsewhere 
 with Dilke, who was fond of recalling what he described as 
 the " Homeric fights " between Newmarch and Bramwell. 
 They must have raised the temperature to a high pitch. 
 In 1905 Dilke wrote for this volume : "I remember one 
 interesting discussion, with its preface perhaps worth 
 
 1 Works and Life of Walter Bagehot. London. 1915. Vol. X. 
 p. 422.
 
 352 Political Economy Club 
 
 noting. Fawcett was fiercely opposed to free schools. 
 Finding that Mill, who had also been opposed, was coming 
 round in the height of a fight which I was waging with 
 Fawcett, I managed to convert Mill, and brought free 
 schools before the Club, obtaining such support from Mill 
 that, unexpectedly, our view prevailed." 
 
 The Bimetallic controversy created more feeling in the 
 Club than any question I can remember. With Farrer, 
 Giffen, Avebury, Aldenham, Grenfell, Courtney, and others 
 joining in the fray, strong words were sometimes used. 
 Courtney was the soul of courtesy and fairness in debate, 
 as in everything else, and it provokes a smile to know that 
 when Fairer was spending a week-end in the country, he 
 declined a proposal of his host to call at a neighbouring 
 house where Courtney was a visitor, on the ground that 
 their relations as members of the Gold and Silver Com- 
 mission were too strained to make a meeting agreeable. 
 The devotion of Courtney to the Club was exceptionally 
 deep. On the 22nd April, 1918, he wrote to me to say 
 that he was beginning to ask himself whether he should 
 live to see this volume, and " wondered whether a typed 
 copy might be prepared and passed round, so that an old 
 hand like myself might have a chance of hearing from a 
 typed paper what he might not hear from a printed volume. 
 Perhaps this would cost more than the curiosity of a lagging 
 veteran can justify." He was a regular attendant up to 
 the last year of his long life, was an excellent Chairman, 
 very jealous of the time ration for openers and speakers, 
 and of the rules of order, and admirable in summing up a 
 conversation. His grasp of economic reasoning and his 
 fund of knowledge, joined to his insight into the heart of 
 the question, made him the weightiest and most impressive
 
 Comdmswn 353 
 
 so deep that 
 on Us long 
 
 Courtney,, and the 
 When I joined the dub tobacco 
 Courtney was one of the last to object to 
 allowed. We have moved so far that cnyrt arc now snp- 
 pied by the Onb. 
 
 : : * i : 
 
 to 
 Ac latest books with 
 
 "I 
 
 -~ 
 
 defiberate. He 
 vutfjuiedtosay thai the facts 
 to a recent Bfae^ook. "I 
 he said. "AH that I know of the 
 learn tnom the p-p-p-jAiuads ! " 
 so 
 
 that o< any other 
 
 ^. . . i ~ " _ i ". _ i. ".j_ t _' < _ ~ - ~ ~ . ^_~.^-'~ * ~ - 
 
 a bovd between ws. " A. Sfttte 
 
 i. :. z
 
 354 Political Economy Club 
 
 Budgets," collected by the " Economic Club " at my sug- 
 gestion, was published in 1896, with a preface by Charles 
 Booth, Ernest Aves, and myself. The first budget, com- 
 piled by me as a specimen for the Club, was generally hailed 
 as " evidently the work of Booth," which amused him and 
 pleased me. At one of our dinners he told me in secret 
 that he was living unknown in one of the poorest lodging- 
 houses hi the East End of London, where he met very 
 strange fellow-lodgers and learned strange things. In the 
 discussions on questions of poverty I generally found myself 
 ranged on the side of Booth in his differences with C. S. 
 Loch, whose hard charity-organisation mind appeared to 
 me to work upon hypotheses of the psychology of the poor 
 less real and accurate than the views of Booth. By no 
 means blind to their defects, many of them shared by 
 wealthier people, he was better aware of their good points, 
 their neighbourliness, patience, courage, and latent possi- 
 bilities. I was the first of his converts in the Club to Old 
 Age Pensions, after two or three talks during the dinner 
 hours, and was, I think, his only supporter when he brought 
 the question before the Club in 1897. 
 
 Mr. E. F. Leveson-Gower, in his Bygone Years, 1905, 
 makes some references to the Club. He says : " Lord 
 Overstone was . . . always very good to me. He proposed 
 me as a candidate for the Political Economy Club. I my- 
 self proposed for it Mr. Arthur Balfour who, apart from 
 politics, has always been a general favourite. Soon after 
 his election he read to the Club, as in duty bound, a paper 
 in which he discussed the question of trade following the 
 flag, which he himself strongly affirmed. His views were 
 generally condemned, and I do not think he was pleased 
 with the reception they met with. Since then I never saw
 
 Conclusion 355 
 
 him at any of our meetings. If he had continued to attend 
 them he might have formed more decided views on such 
 subjects than he seems now to entertain." l Giffen observed 
 that he had no recollection of this, but preserved a lively 
 remembrance of Mr. Balfour's question in 1882 : " What 
 relation does the Ricardian theory of Rent bear to the 
 actual economic facts in England and Scotland ? " It is 
 possible that the allusion is to Mr. Balfour's question in 1884 : 
 " What are the economic advantages of maintaining the 
 political connection between the United Kingdom and its 
 Colonies ? " But Mr. Leveson-Gower was not present on 
 that occasion, and seven years had then elapsed since Mr. 
 Balfour's election. He attended the Club in 1880, 1882 
 (three consecutive meetings), 1884, 1885, and 1886, and 
 his proposer's observations may easily create a wrong 
 impression. 
 
 The long experiences of Courtney, Stebbing, and Mac- 
 donell as to the changes which have come over the Club 
 make my own impressions on the subject of little import- 
 ance. In 1894 I was present as a visitor, and again in 1895 
 before my election ; and in those days the Club had a more 
 antique air than it wears to-day. Many of the members 
 were old in years and in membership. The tone of dis- 
 cussion was more old-fashioned, the cooking was of a good, 
 English, early- Victorian type, and the muffins after dinner 
 accentuated the impression of fidelity to tradition. The 
 wines were of good vintage, were more copiously consumed, 
 and there was a choice of liqueurs sometimes in the middle 
 of dinner and always at the end. The removal to the Hotel 
 Cecil gave us a lighter French cuisine, with which no fault 
 could be found, but the wines were less choice and varied, 
 
 1 Pp. 255-6.
 
 356 Political Economy Club 
 
 and the muffins disappeared. The War, coupled with a 
 reduced subscription, has lowered the aesthetic standard ; 
 and Jevons would no longer have any excuse for his doubt 
 whether the long life of the Club " be due to the excellence 
 of its monthly dinners, in respect of which the club does 
 not seem to study economy, or to the interest of the 
 economical debates which follow each dinner." 1 The freedom 
 and familiarity with which we met, as Mr. Stebbing remarks, 
 rather like a family party, has become less marked, and a 
 more serious spirit pervades the Club before and during 
 dinner. The conversation after dinner is less vivacious 
 and less improvised. It was, if true, a fatal objection to a 
 novelist that his characters " spoke Essays." Efforts have 
 lately been made to revert to shorter speeches and to the 
 old regime of orderly conversations. Opinions may differ 
 as to the best mode of promoting the objects of the Club, 
 but we shall all agree in desiring to preserve what is worth 
 keeping of our traditions in the past. 
 
 1 "The Future of Political Economy," reprinted in his Principles 
 of Political Economy. London. 1905. Page 1 88.
 
 LISTS OF MEMBERS, RULES, ETC.
 
 LIST OF MEMBERS 
 
 SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE CLUB. 
 
 Nan,, 
 
 1821 M. BASEVI - - 1831 R 
 
 *GEORGE BROWN - - 1829 D 
 
 JOHN CAZENOVE - - 1830 R 
 WALTER COULSON, Counsel to the Home 
 
 Office - 1860 D 
 
 *JOHN W. COWELL (Hon. Sec.) - 1867 D 
 
 *HON. WM. KEITH DOUGLAS - - 1822 R 
 
 *Hv. ENTWISTLE - - 1838 D 
 
 *GEO. GROTE, afterwards M.P. (Treasurer) 1831 R 
 
 *SWINTON C. HOLLAND - - 1828 D 
 
 ,, *G. G. DE W. LARPENT, afterwards Bart. 1849 R 
 
 J. G. S. LEFEVRE, afterwards K.C.B. - 1831 R 
 
 GEO. LYALL, afterwards M.P. - - 1849 R 
 
 *Colonel WILLIAM LEADER MABERLY, M.P. 1829 R 
 
 ZACHARY MACAULAY - 1831 R 
 
 *JOHN LEWIS MALLET - - 1836 R 
 
 *REV. T. R. MALTHUS - - 1834 D 
 
 *JAMES MILL - 1835 R 
 
 *FORBES MITCHELL - - 1822 R 
 
 * The 20 members against whose names an asterisk is placed were 
 the original members as printed (with their addresses) in the volumes 
 
 of minutes, etc., for 1882 and 1899. The number of ordinary members 
 when the club was fully constituted by the election of 10 others stood 
 at 30. 
 
 358
 
 List of Members 359 
 
 Elected. Name. Resigned 
 
 or died. 
 
 l82I *ROBERT MUSHET - - 1828 R 
 
 *GEO. WARDE NORMAN (Hon. Member, 1880) 1882 D 
 Sir H. PARNELL, Bart., M.P. 
 
 [Lord Congleton, 1839] - - 1841 D 
 
 ALEXANDER PREVOST - - 1829 R 
 
 *CHARLES R. PRINSEP - - 1824 R 
 
 ,, *DAVID RICARDO, M.P. - - 1823 D 
 
 EDWARD SIMEON - - 1824 R 
 
 *R. SIMPSON - - 1828 D 
 
 JOHN ABEL SMITH, M.P. - 1834 R 
 
 THOMAS TOOKE - 1858 D 
 
 *Col. ROBT. TORRENS - 1851 R 
 
 *HENRY WARBURTON, afterwards M.P. - 1858 D 
 
 1823 Lord ALTHORP [Earl Spencer, 1834] 
 
 (Hon. Member as Cabinet Minister, 1830) 1845 D 
 NASSAU WM. SENIOR 
 
 resigned, 1849 > ^-elected, 1853 - - 1864 D 
 
 1824 MOSES RICARDO - - 1840 R 
 WM. W. WHITMORE, M.P. - - 1857 D 
 
 1825 J. S. RAVENSHAW - - 1828 R 
 1828 JAS. PENNINGTON - - 1856 R 
 
 W. BINGHAM BARING, M.P, 
 
 [Second Lord Ashburton, 1848] - - 1864 D 
 
 Rt. Hon. CHAS. POULETT THOMSON, M.P. 
 [Lord Sydenham, 1840 ; Hon. Member, 
 
 1835] - - 1841 D 
 
 1828 H. St. JOHN MILDMAY - - 1832 R 
 
 1829 JAMES R. MACCULLOCH - - 1846 R 
 JOHN HORSLEY PALMER - 1846 R 
 Rt. Hon. Sir R. WILMOT HORTON - 1831 R 
 
 1831 WM. BLAKE - - 1852 D
 
 360 Political Economy Club 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1831 SAMUEL JONES LOYD [Lord Overstone, 1850 ; 
 
 Hon. Member, 1872] - - 1883 D 
 
 THOS. HYDE VILLIERS - - 1832 R 
 
 CoL PERRONET THOMPSON - - 1835 R 
 
 1832 Rt. Hon. THOS. SPRING RICE, M.P. 
 
 [Hon. Member, 1834 ; Lord Monteagle, 1839] 
 
 1866 D 
 Sir JOHN ROMILLY, M.P. [resigned, 1836 ; 
 
 re-elected, 1847 ; Lord Romilly, 1865] 1872 R 
 CHAS. HAY CAMERON (resigned in 1835 on 
 
 appointment as Member of the Legislative 
 
 Council of India ; re-elected 1849) - 1859 R 
 
 1833 GEORGE VILLIERS [Earl of Clarendon] 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1834) - - 1870 D 
 
 1834 JAS. DEACON HUME 1841 D 
 JAS. MORRISON - 1857 D 
 
 EDWIN CHADWICK, C.B. (K.C.B., 1889) - 1889 R 
 
 1835 SYLVAIN VAN DE WEYER (Belgian Minister) 1874 D 
 CHARLES BULLER, M.P. - - 1848 D 
 WM. JOHN BLAKE - - 1875 D 
 
 1836 JOHN Louis PREVOST - - 1852 D 
 JOHN STUART MILL - 1873 D 
 ,, Marquis of LANSDOWNE 
 
 (Hon. Member from election) - 1866 D 
 
 ,, Earl of KERRY 1836 D 
 
 ,, Rt. Hon. HOLT MACKENZIE 1867 R 
 
 ,, GEO. J. GRAHAM - 1873 R 
 
 1837 Sir WM. CLAY, Bart., M.P. - 1869 D 
 Lord HOWICK [afterwards Earl Grey] 
 
 (Hon. Member, Cabinet, from election) 1894 D 
 
 1840 SAMPSON RICARDO, M.P. - 1863 D
 
 List of Members 361 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1841 G. R. PORTER - 1852 D 
 
 Rev. SIDNEY SMITH 1843 R 
 
 1843 THOS. VARDON - 1855 R 
 
 Count POLLON 1846 D 
 
 1847 HERMAN MERIVALE, C.B. - 1874 D 
 
 EDWARD STRUTT, M. P. [Lord Helper, 1856] 1873 R 
 
 Rt. Hon. CHARLES P. VILLIERS, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1859) - 1898 D 
 Hon. EDWARD P. BOUVERIE, M.P. 
 
 [afterwards Right Hon.] - - 1854 R 
 
 1847 WILLIAM T. THORNTON - - 1880 D 
 
 JOHN LEWIS RICARDO, M.P. - - 1862 R 
 
 Sir BENJAMIN HAWES, K.C.B., M.P. - 1859 R 
 
 1850 Earl GRANVILLE, K.G. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1851) - - 1891 D 
 
 J. G. HUBBARD, M.P. 
 
 [Lord Addington, 1887] - - 1883 R 
 
 1851 Lord WODEHOUSE [Earl of Kimberley, K.G.] 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1869) - 1902 D 
 
 1852 WM. NEWMARCH, F.R.S. - 1882 D 
 
 1853 ROBERT LOWE, M.P. 
 
 [Viscount Sherbrooke, 1880] 
 (Hon. Member, 1869) - - 1892 D 
 
 KIRKMAN DANIEL HODGSON, M.P. - - 1869 R 
 1855 Sir GEO. W. W. BRAMWELL 
 
 [Lord Bramwell, 1882] 1891 R 
 
 THOMSON HANKEY, M.P. - 1877 R 
 
 1857 Rt. Hon. Sir GEO. C. LEWIS, Bart., M.P. 
 (elected Hon. Member as Chancellor of 
 the Exchequer] - - - 1863 D 
 
 WM. ARTHUR WILKINSON - - 1865 D
 
 362 Political Economy Club 
 
 Elected. Name. Resigned 
 
 or died. 
 
 1858 Sir ROWLAND HILL, K.C.B. - 
 CHAS. MORRISON 
 
 JOHN ALEX. HANKEY 
 HENRY THOMAS BUCKLE 
 
 1859 Sir JOHN MACPHERSON MACLEOD - 
 
 1860 HENRY THRING [Lord Thring, 1886] 
 GEO. M. W. PEACOCKE, M.P. 
 
 1861 Rt. Hon. HENRY FAWCETT, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, Professor, 1862) - - 1883 D 
 Rt. Hon. Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, Bart., 
 
 M.P. [ist Earl of Iddesleigh, 1888] 1864 R 
 
 1862 Hon. E. F. LEVESON GOWER, M.P. - 1894 R 
 JAMES FuzjAMES STEPHEN 
 
 [afterwards Mr. Justice Stephen] - 1872 R 
 
 1863 Sir EDWARD W. WATKIN, Bart., M.P. 1899 D 
 
 1864 WALTER BAGEHOT - - 1877 D 
 ,, THOS. H. FARRER [Lord Farrer, 1893] 1895 R 
 
 1865 THOS. HARE - 1888 R 
 JACOB WALEY - 1873 D 
 Rt. Hon. GEO. J. GOSCHEN, M.P. 
 
 [Viscount Goschen, 1900] 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1866) - 1907 D 
 
 Rt. Hon. W. E. GLADSTONE, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member from election) - - 1898 D 
 
 1866 Lord DUFFERIN 
 
 [afterwards Marquis of Dufferin and Ava] 1902 D 
 
 1867 Lord FREDK. CAVENDISH, M.P. - 1882 D 
 ,, Sir JOHN LUBBOCK, M.P. 
 
 [Lord Avebury, 1900] 1913 D 
 
 W. R. GREG 1881 D 
 
 1869 Sir ROBT. R. TORRENS, M.P.- - - 1883 D
 
 List of Members 363 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1869 Rt. Hon. LEONARD H. COURTNEY 
 
 (sometime M.P.) Lord Courtney of 
 
 Penwith, 1906 - - 1918 D 
 
 Rt. Hon. Sir CHAS. W. DILKE, Bart., M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1883) - - 1911 D 
 
 Rt. Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1870) - 1886 D 
 
 1870 Sir Louis MALLET, C.B. (afterwards Rt. 
 
 Hon.) - 1885 R 
 
 1871 Rt. Hon. GEO. J. SHAW LEFEVRE 
 
 (sometime M.P. ; Hon. Member, 1885, 
 Lord Eversley, 1906) - 
 
 1872 JOHN MORLEY 
 
 (afterwards Rt. Hon. and O.M. and M.P., 
 
 Viscount Morley of Blackburn, 1906) 1880 R 
 
 1873 WM. FOWLER (sometime M.P.) - 1905 D 
 R. DUDLEY BAXTER - 1875 R 
 
 1874 HUGH McCuLLOCH (U.S. Finance Minister) 1879 R 
 W. P. PATTISON - - 1878 D 
 
 ,, J. F. MCLENNAN - - 1879 R 
 
 Rt. Hon. Sir WM. HARCOURT, M.P. - 1878 R 
 
 Rt. Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1886) - 1897 D 
 
 ,, Lord WELBY, G.C.B. - - 1915 D 
 
 1875 FREDERIC HARRISON - 1886 R 
 
 1876 HUGH C. E. CHILDERS, M.P. 
 
 (afterwards Rt. Hon. and Hon. 
 
 Member, 1880) - - 1896 D 
 H. R. GRENFELL 
 
 (sometime M.P. and Governor of the 
 
 Bank of England) - 1900 R
 
 364 Political Economy Club 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1876 Maj.-Gen. W. F. MARRIOTT - - 1879 D 
 
 1877 Rt. Hon. A. J. BALFOUR, M.P., O.M. 
 
 (Prime Minister, 1901 ; Hon. Member, 
 1886) - 
 Sir ROBERT GIFFEN, K.C.B. - - 1910 D 
 
 1878 Sir R. BLENNERHASSET, Bart., M.P. - 1880 R 
 Col. G. CHESNEY, R.E. (afterwards Major- 
 General Sir G. Chesney) - - 1895 D 
 
 1879 Lord EDM. FITZMAURICE, M.P. (Lord 
 
 Fitzmaurice, 1906; Hon. Member, 1908) 1920 D 
 Earl FORTESCUE - - 1885 R 
 
 1880 WM. STEBBING 
 J. W. BIRCH 
 
 (Governor of the Bank of England) - 1897 D 
 
 JAS. CAIRO (afterwards K.C.B.) 1892 R 
 
 1881 JOHN MACDONELL (afterwards K.C.B.) 
 
 H. H. GIBBS (Lord Aldenham, 1896) - 1907 D 
 Sir T. BRASSEY, M.P. (afterwards Earl 
 
 Brassey, K.C.B.) - 1918 D 
 
 1882 W. S. JEVONS 1882 D 
 
 1883 Earl of DALHOUSIE - 1887 D 
 Sir DAVID DALE, Bart. - - 1906 D 
 
 J. K. CROSS, M.P. 1887 D 
 
 ,, HENRY SIDGWICK - - 1900 D 
 
 Rt. Hon. Sir BERNH. SAMUELSON, Bart., 
 
 M.P. 1905 D 
 
 1885 FRANCIS W. BUXTON (sometime M.P.) - 1911 D 
 
 Col. R. RAYNSFORD JACKSON - 1894 R 
 
 J. FLETCHER MOULTON, K.C., M.P. (Lord 
 
 Moulton, 1902) - 1917 R 
 
 W. FRASER RAE - 1905 D
 
 List of Members 365 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1886 J. B. MARTIN - 1897 D 
 W. C. SIDGWICK - - 1917 D 
 
 1887 Lieut.-Gen. R. STRACHEY 
 
 [Sir Richard Strachey, G.C.S.I.] - - 1896 R 
 Rt. Hon. CHAS. BOOTH - - 1916 D 
 
 1888 Hon. HERBERT GIBBS - 
 
 1889 GEORGE H. MURRAY (afterwards G.C.B. 
 
 and P.O.) - 
 
 1890 SYDNEY BUXTON, M.P. (Earl Buxton, 
 
 1920) - - 1899 R 
 
 1892 R. MUNRO FERGUSON, M.P. (Viscount 
 
 Nevar, 1920) - - 1895 R 
 
 Rt. Hon. Sir EDW. GREY, Bart., M.P. 
 (Hon. Member, 1905; Viscount Grey, 
 K.G., 1916) - 1920 R 
 
 1893 Sir RAYMOND WEST, K.C.I.E. - 1912 D 
 
 1895 Hon. EVELYN HUBBARD 
 
 BERNARD MALLET (afterwards K.C.B.) - 
 
 J. WESTLAKE, K.C. - 1913 D 
 
 ,, J. ST. LOE STRACHEY 
 ,, Sir SIDNEY LEE - - 1905 R 
 
 1896 HENRY HIGGS (afterwards C.B.) 
 
 1897 WYNNARD HOOPER 
 
 H. LL. SMITH, C.B. (afterwards G.C.B.) - 1909 R 
 
 ,, S. E. SPRING RICE, C.B. - 1902 D 
 
 Sir WM. LEE WARNER, K.C.S.I. - - 1914 D 
 
 1900 THOS. MACKAY - 1912 D 
 ,, FREDK. HUTH JACKSON (afterwards P.C.) 
 
 W. M. ACWORTH (afterwards Knight) 
 
 1901 CHAS. P. TREVELYAN, M.P. - 
 
 1904 W. A. S. HEWINS (afterwards M.P.) - 1914 R
 
 366 Political Economy Club 
 
 Elected. N* m , 
 
 1904 Major LEONARD DARWIN, R.E. 
 EDWARD C. GRENFELL - 
 
 Rt. Rev. LORD BISHOP OF STEPNEY (Arch- 
 bishop of York, 1909) - 1909 R 
 Sir HUGH BELL, Bart., C.B. - 
 
 1905 Rt. Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, G.C.S.I., 
 
 M.P. (elected Hon. Member as an ex-Cabinet 
 Minister) - 
 Sir THOMAS RALEIGH, K.C.S.I - 1914 R 
 
 1906 Feb. Rt. Hon. HERBERT SAMUEL, M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member 1909 ; afterwards G.B.E.) 
 ,, SIR GEORGE S. GIBB - 
 
 Mar. A. C. PIGOU (Hon. Member, Dec. 
 1908 ; Professor at Cambridge) - 
 FELIX SCHUSTER 
 
 (afterwards Bart.) 
 
 1907 Feb. Viscount RIDLEY - 1916 D 
 
 1908 Apr. W. BLAIN, C. B. - - 1909 D 
 ,, Dec. Sir FRANK FORBES ADAM (after- 
 wards Bart.) 
 
 HON. W. PEMBER REEVES - 
 
 1909 Feb. OWEN FLEMING - 
 
 Mar. Sir EDGAR SPEYER 1917 R 
 
 F. W. HIRST 
 Dec. JOHN S. BRADBURY, C.B. 
 
 (afterwards G.C.B.) 
 ,, JOHN BUCHAN - 1917 R 
 
 1911 Dec. Sir THEODORE MORISON, K.C.I. E. 
 
 1912 May R. MARTIN-HOLLAND (now R. 
 
 Holland-Martin), C.B.
 
 List of Members 367 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1912 Dec. J. M. KEYNES 
 
 (afterwards C.B.) 
 
 1913 Feb. Sir JOHN SIMON, K.C.V.O., M.P. 
 
 (Hon. Member, 1913) 
 May HARTLEY WITHERS 
 
 1914 Feb. Hon. EDWARD G. STRUTT - 
 CHARLES E. MALLET 
 
 (sometime M.P. and afterwards 
 Knight) - 
 NORMAN ANGELL 
 
 1915 Mar. Sir MACKENZIE CHALMERS, K.C.B., 
 
 C.S.I. 
 ,, Apr. HAROLD Cox (sometime M.P.) 
 
 1916 Mar. Lord SUMNER, G.C.B. - 
 Apr. Hon. R. H. BRAND, C.M.G. 
 
 1918 Feb. Sir ALFRED BOOTH, Bart. 
 
 W. L. HICHENS - 
 J. C. STAMP 
 
 (afterwards Sir J. C. Stamp, 
 K.B.E.) - 
 
 1919 Feb. Lord INCHCAPE, G.C.M.G., K.C.S.I., 
 
 K.C.I.E. - 
 DOMINICK SPRING RICE 
 
 1920 OSWALD T. FALK 
 
 (afterwards C.B.E.) -
 
 368 Political Economy Club 
 
 LIST OF HON. MEMBERS,* 
 PROFESSORS, ETC., UNDER RULE 5. 
 
 Elected. Name. Professor at 
 
 GEORGE DE LA PRYME Cambridge - 1859 D 
 Dr. WHATELEY 
 
 (Arch, of Dublin) - Oxford - - 1863 D 
 
 1833 Dr. W. NEILSON HANCOCK Dublin - - 1852 R 
 HERMAN MERIVALE 
 
 (Ordinary Member, 1847) Oxford - - 1874 D 
 
 1852 R. HUSSEY WALSH - Dublin - - 1862 R 
 
 CHARLES NEATE - - Oxford - - 1860 R 
 
 1862 JOHN E. CAIRNES - - Dublin 6- Galway 1875 D 
 
 1859 J- E. THOROLD ROGERS Oxford and also 
 
 King's College - 1890 D 
 
 1862 T. E. CLIFFE LESLIE - Belfast - - 1862 D 
 HENRY FAWCETT 
 
 (Ordinary Member, 1861) Cambridge - 1883 D 
 1873 W. B. HODGSON - - Edinburgh - 1880 D 
 W. S. JEVONS University College, 
 
 (Ordinary Member, 1882) London - 1882 D 
 1869 BON AMY PRICE - - Oxford - - 1888 D 
 1882 H. S. FOXWELL - University College, 
 
 London 
 
 1886 ALFRED MARSHALL - Cambridge - 1908 R 
 
 1887 J. E. C. MUNRO - - Owens College, 
 
 Manchester - 1891 D 
 
 * Cabinet or ex-Cabinet Ministers xvho have become Honorary 
 Members under Rule 2 are included in the preceding list. There have 
 been twenty-one such members.
 
 List of Members, 1821-1920 369 
 
 Elected. Name. Professor at Resigned 
 
 or died. 
 
 1888 J. S. NICHOLSON - Edinburgh 
 
 1891 F. Y. EDGEWORTH - Oxford 
 1898 W. A. S. HEWINS 
 
 (Ordinary Member, 1904) King's College - 1914 R 
 
 1904 W. J. ASHLEY (Sir) - Birmingham - 
 
 JAMES BONAR 19 o8 R 
 
 1907 C. S. LOCH - - King's College - 1915 D 
 
 1908 A. C. PIGOU - - Cambridge 
 1911 A. L. BOWLEY 
 
 (One Vacancy.) 
 
 HONORARY MEMBERS (Cabinet or ex-Cabinet Ministers, 
 
 Rule 2.) 
 
 1871. Lord EVERSLEY - 
 
 1877. Rt. Hon. A. J. BALFOUR, O.M. - 
 
 1905. Lord G. HAMILTON, G.C.S.I. - 
 
 1906. Rt. Hon. Sir HERBERT SAMUEL, G.B.E. 
 1913. Sir J. SIMON, K.C.V.O. - 
 
 HONORARY FOREIGN MEMBERS. (Rule 4.) 
 1822 SAY, J. B. - !8 3 2 D 
 
 1919 M. YVES-GUYOT -
 
 COMMITTEE AND OFFICERS OF THE CLUB, 
 
 1821-1920. 
 
 The original Rules of 1821 provided (Rule n) that " At 
 the beginning of each Season a Managing Committee of 
 Three Members should be appointed to make any necessary 
 arrangements for the Society during the Season." 
 
 And Rule 12 provided that " At the end of each Season 
 a Supervising Committee of Five Members shall be appointed 
 to consider of the interests of the Society during the Recess, 
 Three to be a quorum." 
 
 The Members of the First Managing Committee, 
 2nd December, 1822 : 
 
 GEORGE BROWN. J. L. MALLET. 
 
 GEORGE LYALL. 
 
 The Members of the First Supervising Committee, 
 3rd June, 1822 : 
 
 CHARLES HOLLAND. THOMAS TOOKE. 
 JAMES MILL. J. L. MALLET. 
 
 JOHN W. COWELL. 
 
 370
 
 Committee and Officers, 1821-1920 371 
 TREASURERS. 
 
 Elected. Name. Resigned 
 
 or died. 
 
 1821 GEO. GROTE - - 1831 R 
 
 1831 JOHN W. COWELL - - 1834 R 
 
 1834 GEO. LARPENT - - ^46 R 
 
 1848 GEO. R. PORTER - - 1852 D 
 
 1853 W. T. THORNTON - - 1855 R 
 
 1855 WM. NEWMARCH - - 1882 D 
 
 1882 H. R. .GRENFELL - - 1900 R 
 
 1900 F. W. BUXTON - jgu D 
 
 1911 F. HUTH JACKSON ----- 
 
 HON. SECRETARIES. 
 
 1821 JOHN W. COWELL - - 1854 R 
 
 1854 WM. JOHN BLAKE - - 1:865 R 
 
 1865 HERMAN MERIVALE - - 1870 R 
 
 1870 JACOB WALEY - - j873 D 
 
 1873 L. H. COURTNEY - 1891 R 
 
 1881 ROBERT GIFFEN - . _ I 8gi R 
 
 1891 R. GIFFEN - _ X g OI R 
 
 1891 G. H. MURRAY - _ xg ^ R 
 
 1899 BERNARD MALLET - - I g I g R 
 D. SPRING RICE 
 
 MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE. 
 
 1821 JAMES MILL - - 3:835 D 
 
 1835 NASSAU W. SENIOR - - - ^49 R 
 
 1840 JOHN S. MILL - ... ^73 D 
 
 1840 Lord ROMILLY _ _ j82 R
 
 372 Political Economy Club 
 
 Resigned 
 Elected. Name. or died. 
 
 1840 EDWIN CHADWICK - l8 9 J D 
 
 1891 L. H. COURTNEY - I 9 l8 D 
 
 1899 R. GIFFEN - J9 10 D 
 
 1917 G. H. MURRAY - *9 20 R 
 
 1918 R. HOLLAND-MARTIN 
 
 1919 H. WITHERS - 
 
 1920 B. MALLET
 
 LIST OF MEMBERS, DECEMBER 1920. 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1880 Mar. WILLIAM STEBBING. 
 
 1881 Sir JOHN MACDONELL, K.C.B. 
 
 1888 Hon. HERBERT GIBBS. 
 
 1889 Feb. Rt. Hon. Sir GEORGE MURRAY, G.C.B., 
 
 G.C.V.O. 
 
 1895 ,, Hon. EVELYN HUBBARD. 
 
 Mar. Sir BERNARD MALLET, K.C.B. 
 
 ,, Dec. J. ST. LOE STRACHEY. 
 
 1896 April HENRY HIGGS, C.B. 
 
 1897 Dec. WYNNARD HOOPER. 
 
 1900 Feb. Rt. Hon. FREDK. HUTH JACKSON 
 Dec. Sir W. M. ACWORTH. 
 
 1901 May CHARLES P. TREVELYAN. 
 1904 Mar. Major LEONARD DARWIN, R.E. 
 
 EDWARD C. GRENFELL. 
 July Sir HUGH BELL, Bart., C.B. 
 1906 Feb. Sir GEORGE S. GIBB. 
 
 Mar. Sir FELIX SCHUSTER, Bart. 
 
 1908 Dec. Sir FRANK FORBES ADAM, Bart. 
 
 Hon. W. PEMBER-REEVES. 
 
 1909 Feb. OWEN FLEMING. 
 Mar. F. W. HIRST. 
 
 Dec. Sir JOHN S. BRADBURY, G.C.B. * 
 1911 Dec. Sir T. MORISON, K.C.I.E. 
 
 * Supernumerary under Rule 3. 
 373
 
 374 Political Economy Club 
 
 Elected. Name. 
 
 1912 May ROBERT HOLLAND-MARTIN, C.B. 
 Dec. J. M. KEYNES, C.B. 
 
 1913 May HARTLEY WITHERS. 
 
 1914 Feb. Hon. EDWARD G. STRUTT 
 Sir CHARLES E. MALLET. 
 ,, NORMAN ANGELL. 
 
 1915 Mar. Sir MACKENZIE CHALMERS, K.C.B., C.S.I. 
 ,, HAROLD Cox. 
 
 1916 Lord SUMNER. 
 
 ,, April Hon. ROBERT H. BRAND, C.M.G. 
 
 1918 Feb. Sir ALFRED A. BOOTH, Bart. 
 G. B. DIBBLEE. 
 
 W. L. HICHENS. 
 
 ,, Sir JOSIAH C. STAMP, K.B.E. 
 
 1919 Feb. Lord INCHCAPE, G.C.M.G., K. C.S.I., 
 
 K.C.I.E. 
 
 DOMINICK SPRING RICE. 
 
 1920 Jan. OSWALD T. FALK, C.B.E. 
 
 (One Vacancy.)
 
 RULES 
 
 The following Paragraphs appear in the original Rules of the 
 Club, adopted at its formation in 1821 : 
 
 The Members of this Society will regard their own Mutual 
 Instruction, and the diffusion amongst others of the just 
 principles of Political Economy, as a real and important 
 obligation. 
 
 As the Press is the grand instrument for the diffusion of 
 knowledge or of error, all the Members of this Society will 
 regard it as incumbent upon them to watch carefully the 
 proceedings of the Press, and to ascertain if any doctrines 
 hostile to sound views on Political Economy have been pro- 
 pagated ; to contribute whatever may be in their power to 
 refute such erroneous doctrines, and counteract their influ- 
 ence ; and to avail themselves of every favourable oppor- 
 tunity for the publication of seasonable truths within the 
 province of this science. 
 
 It shall be considered the duty of this Society, individually 
 and collectively, to aid the circulation of all Publications 
 which they deem useful to the science, by making the merits 
 of them known as widely as possible, and to limit the influ- 
 ence of hurtful Publications by the same means. 
 
 RULES AS EXISTING IN 1920. 
 
 i. The Club shall consist of not more than 40 Members 
 exclusive of Honorary Members. 
 
 375
 
 376 Political Economy Club 
 
 2. All Members of the Club who have been, or shall 
 become, Cabinet Ministers, shall become Honorary Mem- 
 bers, and their places shall be filled up ; no Subscriptions 
 shall be received from them ; but the invitations and 
 Question Papers shall be sent to them. 
 
 3. Members of the Club who may intend to reside abroad 
 for a year or more, shall be considered Supernumerary 
 Members, their places filled up and no Subscriptions received 
 from them ; and on their return they shall become Acting 
 and Subscribing Members. If the number of 40 is thereby 
 exceeded further elections shall be suspended till the ad- 
 ditional number shall have been absorbed. 
 
 4. British subjects and foreigners usually resident out 
 of the United Kingdom are eligible as Honorary Members. 
 
 5. The Club may also elect not more than seven Honorary 
 Members from the Incumbents, for the time being, of the 
 Professorships of Political Economy in any University in 
 the United Kingdom, or from other persons who have 
 shown themselves eminent in any branch of Economic 
 Science. 
 
 6. Honorary Members under Rules 4 and 5 shall be 
 proposed by the Secretary on behalf of the Committee, 
 and may be elected at any meeting of the Club. 
 
 7. Any Member wishing to propose a candidate for 
 election as an Ordinary Member shall send to the Secretary 
 the name and address of the candidate, together with the 
 name of his seconder, and a brief statement of the candidate's 
 qualifications. 
 
 8. On or before the I5th January in each year the Secretary 
 shall send to each Member a list of the candidates and 
 shall notify at the same time the number of vacancies to 
 be filled up. The Member shall return the list to the Secre- 
 tary three clear days before the day fixed for the February 
 Meeting, without signing it, but having marked with a X
 
 Rules 377 
 
 the names of those candidates (not exceeding in number 
 the vacancies to be filled) whom he desires to be brought 
 forward for ballot. 
 
 9. At the February Meeting the candidate or candidates 
 (not exceeding in number the vacancies to be filled) who 
 have received the largest number of votes, shall be sub- 
 mitted for ballot before the dinner. 
 
 In case of an equality of votes, the Committee shall 
 decide which name is to be submitted for ballot. The 
 result of the ballot shall be announced by post to Members 
 before the next meeting. 
 
 10. Four black balls shall exclude, and the name of a 
 candidate who has been black-balled shall not be submitted 
 for voting again until at least 12 months have elapsed. 
 
 n. The annual Subscription shall be four guineas* and 
 shall be payable on the ist January in each year. Should 
 any Subscription be unpaid on the 3ist March, the Treasurer 
 shall remind the Member in default, and if his Subscription 
 remains unpaid on the 3ist May he shall ipso facto cease 
 to be a Member of the Club ; but may be reinstated by the 
 Committee on payment of arrears if they see fit. 
 
 12. The Club shall meet on the first Wednesday in the 
 months of February, March, April, May, June, November, 
 and December, or on such other days as may be decided 
 from time to time. 
 
 13. Any Member may introduce one visitor at any dinner 
 on giving notice to the Secretary on the preceding day. 
 The Secretary shall announce at the dinner the names of 
 all visitors. 
 
 14. Notice shall be given in writing of any proposed 
 alterations in the Rules at least one month before the 
 Meeting at which they are to be considered. 
 
 * Reduced to two guineas since January, 1915 ; raised to 5 35. od. 
 for 1920.
 
 378 Political Economy Club 
 
 15. The affairs of the Club shall be regulated by a Com- 
 mittee consisting of the Treasurer, the Secretary, and three 
 other Members, to be elected annually at the February 
 Meeting. The elected Members shall be elected for a 
 period of three years, one of them retiring at the end of 
 each year, and not to be eligible for re-election for a period 
 of one year, the first and second to retire to be chosen by 
 lot. 
 
 16. The Chair shall be taken at any dinner by the Member 
 who opened the discussion at the previous meeting. In 
 his absence the Secretary shall propose some other Member 
 as Chairman. 
 
 17. At the February Meeting in each year the Treasurer 
 shall make a statement showing the financial position of 
 the Club. 
 
 18. The Member opening the discussion shall, as a rule, 
 confine his remarks within twenty minutes. Subsequent 
 speakers shall not exceed ten minutes. The opener and 
 the Members taking part in the discussion shall retain 
 their seats. 
 
 19. For the purpose of promoting close' and thorough 
 discussion, the Proposer of any question shall be at liberty 
 to make a short Summary of the arguments he intends 
 to lay before the Club ; and such Summary shall be printed 
 and circulated with the Question, and shall not exceed 
 two pages of print of the size of the Question Paper. 
 
 20. The discussion shall be terminated by the Chairman 
 calling on the Member who opened it to reply.
 
 INDEX TO QUESTIONS DISCUSSED 
 
 1821-1920 
 
 Absenteeism, how detrimental (Mr. SENIOR, 1836) ...... 44 
 
 Accidents from dangerous machinery, effects of owners 
 
 being made liable for (Mr. CHADWICK, 1847) ... ... 60 
 
 Accumulation, Government compulsion of, by its subjects 
 
 (Mr. SENIOR, 1854) ...... ...... 69 
 
 the greater or less proportions to, in 
 
 different countries (1824) ...... ... ... 21 
 
 ACWORTH (Sir W. M.) English Railway Securities and 
 
 their value (1901) ... ... ............ 134 
 
 Canals (1904) ......... 140 
 
 ,, Old Age Pensions (1907) ...... 153 
 
 ,, ,, United States and State ownership 
 
 of Railways (1911) ............... 165 
 
 ,, ,, Railways, War, and State owner- 
 
 ship (1915) ..................... 180 
 
 ,, ,, Transport, control of (1919) ... 197 
 
 ADAM (Sir F. FORBES). Trade cycle (1913) ......... 173 
 
 Africa, Central, efforts to civilise (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1841) 52 
 Agriculture, prospects of, under Free Trade (Mr. W. 
 
 WHITMORE, 1850) .................. 63 
 
 existence of distress in, in Spring of 1830 
 
 (Sir H. PARNELL, 1831) ............... 35 
 
 Agricultural Capital, increase in value of, by increase in 
 
 value of agricultural produce (1827) ... ... ... 29 
 
 Agricultural Depression, caused by decline in agricultural 
 
 produce (Mr. GIFFEN, 1881) ............ 106 
 
 379
 
 380 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGS 
 
 Agricultural Labourers, the causes of present distress, and 
 what measures would remedy the evil (Col. TORRENS, 
 
 1831) 35 
 
 ,, Diminution of numbers ... ... 146 
 
 ,. ,, Condition in Midlands ... ... 174 
 
 Agriculturists, heavy taxation of, to be attended to in 
 
 Corn-trade legislation (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1836) ... 45 
 ALDENHAM (Lord). Supply and demand for Precious 
 
 Metals. (H. H. Gibbs, 1888) 113 
 
 Allotment to Agricultural Labourers (Mr. MERIVALE, 1845) 58 
 
 Allotment System (Mr. THORNTON, 1848) 61 
 
 ALTHORP (Lord). Is the exclusive possession of exportation 
 
 of Raw Material disadvantageous to the country? (1825) 23 
 America, Specie circular of the Government in 1836 
 
 (Mr. TOOKE, 1840) 50 
 
 high rate of Interest in, if indicating large 
 
 profits, and the cause (Mr. MILL, 1865) ... ... 84 
 
 America, South, Does the Capital loaned from this country 
 
 by, benefit this country ? (Mr. HOLLAND, 1825) 24 
 Apprenticeship, If a condition essentially of slave labour 
 
 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1854) 68 
 
 Arbitration in Industry, Principles of ... ... 92, 150, 204 
 
 Compulsory... ... 168 
 
 Armaments, expediency and possibility of international 
 
 agreement with regard to (Rt. Hon. G. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 
 
 1899) 126 
 
 Armies, Systems in use in great States for raising (Mr. 
 
 LESLIE, 1867) 87 
 
 ASHLEY (Sir W. J.) German progress in prosperity (1904) 144 
 Profit (1909) ... 160 
 
 ,, Prices, rise of (1912) 167 
 
 Profit-Sharing (1914) 176 
 
 Association of Workmen in profits of industrial undertakings 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1848) 62 
 
 Australia, sale of leasehold instead of freehold interest in 
 
 lands of (Mr. MERIVALE, 1856) ... ... 73 
 
 Australian Colonies, modification of Wakefield principles 
 
 in (Col. TORRENS, 1870) 90
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 381 
 
 PAGE 
 
 BAGEHOT (Mr.) Rise in the Rate of Interest as compared 
 
 with the Rate ten years back (1865) 84 
 
 The desirability to append an expansive 
 Clause to the Act of 1844, sanctioning, in case of panic, 
 the augmentation of the issue of Bank Notes beyond 
 the present limit (1866) 85 
 
 Should the Bullion Reserve against 
 Banking Liabilities be entrusted to a single Bank or 
 otherwise? (1866) 86 
 
 ,, Tenant Right in Ireland (1867) 87 
 
 ,, Should the Banking Department of the 
 
 Bank of England be managed on the same principles 
 as any other large London Bank ? (1868) ... ... 89 
 
 Seigniorage on Coins which are legal 
 
 tender for an unlimited amount (1869) ... ... 89 
 
 Tenant Right of Ulster (1870) 90 
 
 Arbitration between Masters and Men 
 during a Strike (1871) 92 
 
 Is it desirable to act upon the proposal 
 
 to appropriate to the State the increment of the rent of 
 lands consequent on the development of Society ? (1872) 92 
 
 BALFOUR (Rt. Hon. A. J.) What relation does the 
 Ricardian theory of Rent in England and Scotland 
 bear to the actual economic facts ? (1882) 106 
 
 Economic advantage of Colonies (1884) ... 109 
 
 Bank Notes, difference between them and other forms of 
 
 credit (Mr. MILL, 1848) 61 
 
 ,, ,, if their issue is an exclusive state function 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1857) 74 
 
 Bank Notes of i, Would their resumption be convenient 
 and profitable, without any resulting important 
 inconvenience? 99,113 
 
 Bank of England, If practicable to have fixed issues on 
 Securities, and fluctuating on Bullion, while country 
 banks issued without reference to the exchanges 
 (Col. TORRENS, 1841) 51
 
 382 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Bank of England, restriction of its Discounts by the, on 
 
 a drain of gold (Mr. MILL, 1856) 73 
 
 ,, augmentation of the issue of Notes by 
 
 expansive Clause to the Act of 1844 (Mr. BAGEHOT, 
 
 1866) 85 
 
 management of Banking Department 
 
 of (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1868) 89 
 
 ,, changes ... ... ... 138 
 
 Bank Reserves ... ... ... ... ... 173 
 
 Bankers and Trade fluctuations ... ... ... ... 174 
 
 Banking, To what extent should reserve Banks advance 
 on doubtful securities in a monetary crisis ? (R. GIFFEN, 
 
 1890) 117 
 
 Banking in Canada and United States ... ... ... 154 
 
 Bankruptcy Law, the principles of the (Mr. MACDONELL, 
 
 1881) 105 
 
 Banks, Joint Stock, legislative interference with (Sir W. 
 
 CLAY, 1838) 47 
 
 ,, principles for legal regulation of (Mr. 
 
 NEWMARCH, 1855) 72 
 
 Banks and support to Trade ... ... ... ... ... 184 
 
 Banks of Circulation and of Deposit, difference between 
 
 (Mr. PENNINGTON, 1835) 43 
 
 BAXTER (Mr.) How far true that a Nation burthened 
 with a National Debt, should, as a duty, in time of 
 peace, provide for substantial reduction by Sinking 
 Fund, Surplus Revenue, or Terminable Annuities ? 
 
 (1873) 95 
 What circumstances, and in respect 
 
 of what Income or Property, does a Tax cease 
 to be so, and become a rent charge to the State ? 
 
 (1874) . . 96 
 
 BELL (Sir HUGH). The Open Door (1905) 147 
 
 Waste (1908) ... ... 154 
 
 Capital and Labour, relative interests 
 
 of (1909) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 160 
 
 ,, German Trade, capture of (1916) ... 183 
 
 Dumping (1917) 187
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 383 
 
 PACE 
 
 BELL (Sir HUGH). Income Tax after the War (1917) ... 190 
 ,, ,, Wages and Profits, relation between 
 
 (1918) ... 194 
 
 Bills of Exchange A ct, 1882 ... ... ... 164 
 
 BONAR (Dr. J.) Domestic and Foreign Trade, and employ- 
 ment of Capitals (1906) ... 148 
 
 BOOTH (Sir A. A.) Price and Distribution (1918) ... ... 195 
 
 (Rt. Hon. C.) Labour and Capital (1888) 114 
 
 Enterprise, public and private (1896) 123 
 
 ,, Old Age Pensions (1897) 124 
 
 ,, Housing problem of London (1901) ... 132 
 
 BOWLEY (Dr. A. L.) Real wages, measurement of (1911) 167 
 ,, ,, War, effect on working class 
 
 (1918) - 193 
 
 BRADBURY (Sir J. S.) Investment of Government funds 
 
 (1910) ... 163 
 
 B RAM WELL (Mr. Baron). Provision for contracts above 
 
 10 to be in writing (1859) 7^ 
 
 ,, ,, How should the liability of em- 
 
 ployer to workmen, consequent on accidents from 
 negligence of fellow-workmen, be regulated according 
 to Economic principles ? (1880) ... ... ... ... 104 
 
 BRAND (Hon. R. H.) Finance, international co-operation 
 
 in (1920) 201 
 
 BRASSEY (Lord). Chartered Companies (1892) ... ... 119 
 
 Cunard Agreement (1902) ... ... 136 
 
 British India, Are there any Economic reasons why the 
 law should give to inheritors of small properties an 
 immunity from charges to meet debts of life occupiers ? 
 
 (Mr. COURTNEY, 1879) IO2 
 
 BROWN (Mr.) The payment off of the National Debt by 
 
 contribution on Capital of Individuals (1822) ... ... 17 
 
 BUCHAN (J.) Imperial finance (1910) 161 
 
 Budget of 1914 177 
 
 BULLER (Mr. C.) How management of Railroad system 
 
 is most conducive to national wealth (1842) 53 
 
 Bullion Reserve, custody of, against Banking liabilities 
 
 (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1866) .. 86
 
 384 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACE 
 
 Business with slow or with quick returns, comparative produce 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1851) 66 
 
 BUXTON (F. W.) Increase of Population (1890) ... ... 116 
 
 Pauper Immigration (1891) ... ... 118 
 
 Living Wage (1893) 120 
 
 Housing of Poor (1898) ... ... ... 125 
 
 South African Colonies, condition of (1906) 147 
 
 BUXTON (Sydney). Death Duties (1894) 121 
 
 Cab Fares, fixed by Law (Sir ROWLAND HILL, 1863) ... 81 
 CAIRD (Mr.) Increase of Population in India, and how 
 
 to be fed (1882) 106 
 
 CAIRNES (Mr.) The true relation of money to the Rate 
 
 of Interest (1865) 84 
 
 Landlord and Tenant, and how to deter- 
 
 mine Agricultural Rent in conformity with the Moral 
 
 basis of Property (1870) 90 
 
 Canada, If its independence or incorporation with the 
 United States would affect Great Britain (Mr. Mc- 
 
 CULLOCH, 1839) 49 
 
 Canals ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 140 
 
 Capital, employed in Domestic and Foreign Trade 49, 148 
 
 export of, as affecting employment 159 
 
 and Labour, interest in enterprise ... ... ... 160 
 
 Levy ... 192 
 
 Levy on War fortunes ... ... ... ... 199 
 
 rapid accumulation of, impeding progress of 
 
 National Wealth (1823) 19 
 
 into what component parts may the return to, 
 
 be divided ? (Mi. TOOKE, 1825) 25 
 
 the most convenient definition of (Mr. SENIOR, 
 
 1826) 26 
 
 definition of (Mr. THORNTON, 1853) 68 
 
 natural limit to accumulation of (Mr. SENIOR, 1838) 48 
 tendency to agglomeration or dispersion under 
 
 our social institutions (Mr. MILL, 1850) 64 
 
 saving of, by Railway facilities (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 
 74
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 385 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Capital, employed in Foreign and Home Trade, if the 
 former, only half as encouraging to the industry of 
 this country as the latter (Mr. MERIVALE, 1839) 49 
 ,, exportation of British, a cause of its increase at 
 
 home (Mr. MILL, 1843) 54 
 
 ,, as applied to Wealth intended for Reproduction 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1863) 82 
 
 ,, Circulating, whether estimated by quantity of 
 commodities or by the labour thereby maintained (Mr. 
 
 CAZENOVE, 1824) 22 
 
 Capitalism, evolution of ... ... ... ... ... 203 
 
 CAVENDISH (Lord Frederick). Is local Taxation adequate 
 
 to the demands upon it ? (1869) 89 
 
 CAZENOVE (Mr.) Protection of home produce by ad valorem 
 
 duty under system of Free Trade (1822) 15 
 
 Absorption of produce by the Labourer, 
 larger than it was ten or twelve years since 
 (1824) 21 
 
 Is Circulating Capital estimated by 
 quantity of commodities, or by Labour thereby main- 
 tained ? (1824) 22 
 
 Production of Corn, and its price to the 
 
 consumer, affected by Tithes (1830) 34 
 
 CHADWICK (Sir E.) Extension of privileges of Literary 
 
 property (1838) 48 
 
 Legislative interference in Contracts 
 between employer and labourer (1838) 48 
 
 ,, Opinion of Adam Smith, " that dexterity 
 
 of the workman in division of labour is acquired at the 
 expense of his intellectual, social, and martial virtues " 
 (1841) ... ... 52 
 
 ,, Legislative interference to regulate Hours 
 of Work (1844) 56 
 
 Plagues and Epidemics as correctives of 
 population (1845) ... 58 
 
 ,, Effects of owners of dangerous machi- 
 
 nery, &c., being made Liable for Accidents to those 
 employed (1847) ... ... ... ... ... ... 60 
 
 P.E.C. 2B
 
 386 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 CHADWICK (Mr.) Principle of moderate-sized parishes in 
 
 Poor Relief (1847) 60 
 
 Supply of Water to towns by Companies 
 or by public authority (1851) 65 
 
 ,, Demands of Amalgamated Engineers, 
 1852, effect of their concession (1852) 67 
 
 ,, If Apprenticeship and Parochial Settle- 
 
 ment are conditions essentially of slave labour (1854) 68 
 
 Superior efficiency of private or com- 
 mercial service to the Civil Service (1854) 69 
 
 ,, Circumstances which justify Loans for 
 war charges (1855) 70 
 
 Prescription by statute of rate of Hire of 
 public Street Conveyances (1856) 73 
 
 Maintenance of Wages, irrespective of 
 number of labourers (1857) 74 
 
 Economical elements of popular Edu- 
 cation (1858) 76 
 
 Compulsory provision for the Poor 
 
 (1859) - - 76 
 
 Expediency of Land with intent to its 
 Culture by owner and his family (1864) 82 
 
 Principles to be applied to the initia- 
 tion, construction, and Working of Railways for 
 public use (1865) 83 
 
 Should any portion of the expense of 
 local administration now charged on Real Property 
 be charged upon Personal Property ? (1868) 88 
 
 Advantages derived from a compulsory 
 
 system of Elementary Education and Physical Train- 
 ing of the population, and payment by Rates and 
 
 Taxes (1869) 89 
 
 Are Standing Armies the most economical 
 form of Military force ? (1871) ... 91 
 
 Effect of the Nine Hours movement i! 
 
 made general (1872) 93 
 
 Was the purchase by the Government 
 of the Inland Telegraphs, and would the purchase
 
 Index to Questions Disctissed 387 
 
 PAGE 
 
 of the Ocean Telegraphs, be a contravention of sound 
 
 principles of Political Economy ? (1873) 95 
 
 In the formation and acquisition of 
 
 Industrial Lines of communication, such as the Suez 
 Canal, can the State act, and under what conditions, in 
 conformity with the principles of Political Economy ? 
 
 (1876) 98 
 
 Is Government Inspection of Private 
 Trades and Industries a departure from sound Econ- 
 omic principles ? (1879) IO2 
 
 Malthusian Doctrine (1888) 114 
 
 ,, Curative and Preventive Legislation (1889) 115 
 
 CHALMERS (Sir M.) Drink and industrial efficiency (1915) 180 
 Mines and railways, nationalisation of 
 (1919) 200 
 
 Channel Tunnel, Would Economic gain of, compensate 
 
 outlay on necessary Military works ? (R. GIFFEN, 1883) 108 
 
 Charitable Relief, principles and limits of (J. B. MARTIN, 
 
 1892) 119 
 
 Chartered Companies, Promotion of commercial interests 
 of uncivilised countries and the Mother Country by 
 (Lord BRASSEY, 1892) 119 
 
 CHESNEY (Sir G.) What measures, if any, should be taken 
 by the Indian Government to protect itself from loss to 
 its revenues on its exchange operations, arising from 
 
 depreciation of Silver (1878) ... ... 101 
 
 Subject to what limitation is it correct 
 
 to speak of the possibility of over production, having 
 regard to the existing Economic conditions of Industry ? 
 
 (1880) 104 
 
 ,, Exports to pay " tribute " (1893) ... 119 
 
 Children employed in factories (Mr. TOOKE, 1833) 41 
 
 China Trade, the advantages to Great Britain by opening 
 
 the (Mr. WHITMORE, 1830) 34 
 
 Church Establishment, mode of defraying expenses of, in 
 
 new colonies (Mr. SENIOR, 1839) 49 
 
 Circulation, Mr. Tooke's plan for regulating, probable 
 
 effects of, in 1847 (Mn McCuLLOCH, 1848) 61
 
 388 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Civil Service, superior efficiency of private or commercial 
 
 service to (Mr. CHADWICK, 1854) 69 
 
 CLAY (Sir William). Legislative interference with Joint- 
 Stock Banks (1838) 47 
 
 ,, ,, Physical wants of the community 
 
 best supplied by Competition (1845) 57 
 
 ,, Supply of physical wants by the 
 
 agency of Competition (1853) 68 
 
 ,, Effect of Import Duty on price of 
 
 Corn (1852) 66 
 
 ,, Objections to double standard of 
 
 Gold and Silver (1860) 78 
 
 Coal, Do extensive Industrial and other consequences 
 arising from the rapid rise in the price of, afford 
 ground for Government interference, by imposition of 
 an Export Duty, or in any other way ? (Mr. NEW- 
 MARCH, 1873) 94 
 
 Coin, Seigniorage on, being of unlimited legal tender (Mr. 
 
 BAGEHOT, 1869) 89 
 
 Colonial Produce, the effect on Commerce, &c., by the 
 
 abolition of protective duties on (Mr. MACAULAY, 1826) 27 
 Colonies, the benefits derived by Great Britain by the 
 
 possession of its (Sir H. PARNELL, 1829) 33 
 
 are there any Economic advantages in Colonising 
 territory occupied by an uncivilised population ? 
 
 (J. MACDONNELL, 1885) no 
 
 ,, Economic advantages of maintaining political 
 
 connection with ? (A. J. BALFOUR, 1884) 109 
 
 To what extent true that New Markets are 
 created by extension of territory ? (B. MALLET, 1895) 122 
 Do Colonies pay ? (W. C. SIDGWICK, 1896) ... 123 
 ,, Would defensive strength of England be increased 
 by any change of Commercial Policy in regard to ? 
 
 (J. WESTLAKE, 1896) 123 
 
 Colonies and United Kingdom, commercial relations between 139. 
 Colony, circumstances most conducive to the rapid success 
 
 of a (Col. TORRENS, 1829) 32 
 
 Commandile Partnership (Lord OVERSTONE, 1836) 45
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 389 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Commercial Depression, Is it reasonable to believe that the, 
 of Europe and America of the last five years, justifies 
 the presumption that in the next twenty or thirty 
 years a considerable decline from the prosperity since 
 1850 will take place ? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1878) ... 101 
 
 Commercial Service, Private, if superior in efficiency to the 
 
 Civil Service (Mr. CHADWICK, 1854) 69 
 
 Commercial Treaties ... ... ... ... ... 132, 163 
 
 ,, French, of 1860, and others, Econo- 
 mically considered (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1871) 92 
 
 When desirable to negotiate for (Mr. 
 MERIVALE, 1866) 85 
 
 Commodities, can there be a general glut of ? (Rev. T. R. 
 
 MALTHUS, 1821) 5, 7, 8 
 
 ,, the quantity of money being constant, would 
 
 their prices be raised by a general Tax on ? (Col. 
 
 TORRENS, 1821) 5, 8 
 
 ,, how is the exchangeable value of, deter- 
 mined ? (Col. TORRENS, 1823) 19 
 
 ,, does a special rise in the money price of one, 
 
 diminish that of others ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1831) ... 36 
 
 Commons, Is enclosure an Economic gain to the people ? 
 
 (H. R. GRENFELL, 1885) no 
 
 Companies, Trading, principles for legal regulation of (Mr. 
 
 NEWMARCH, 1855) 72 
 
 Compensation, Non-, of Public Corporations for property 
 
 resumed by the State (Mr. LOWE, 1857) 74 
 
 Competition, best agency for supply of physical wants of 
 
 the community (Sir W. CLAY, 1845) 57 
 
 Ditto ditto (Sir W. CLAY, 1853) ... 68 
 foreign, probable interference with our manu- 
 
 facturing industry (Mr. TOOKE, 1839) 4^ 
 
 Open, if always beneficial (Mr. GREG, 1872) 93 
 
 Compulsory national service ... ... ... ... ... 175 
 
 Consols, causes of present Price. At what Price could a 
 large amount be issued on emergency ? (Sir R. GIFFEN, 
 1899) 126 
 
 Consumption, unproductive, its effects (Mr. MACLEOD, 1860) 77
 
 39 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Contracts, provision for those above ten pounds to be in 
 
 writing (Mr. Baron BRAMWELL, 1859) 7^ 
 
 Conveyances, public street, prescription by statute of their 
 
 rates of hire (Mr. CHADWICK, 1856) 73 
 
 Copyright, justice of (Mr. THORNTON, 1854) 69 
 
 effect of total abolition of (Mr. THORNTON, 1864) 83 
 Corn, an efficient countervailing Duty on (Mr. HOLLAND, 
 
 1821) 5 
 
 ,, would free importation of, lower the price of other 
 
 commodities ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1827) 28 
 
 the advantages of a Free Trade in (Mr. PENNINGTON, 
 
 1832) 38 
 
 the benefit to Farmers by the removal of restrictions 
 
 on importation of (Mr. COULSON, 1833) 40 
 
 ,, Bill, The operation of the new, on prices, and the 
 general interests of the community (Sir H. PARXELL, 
 
 1828) 31 
 
 foreign, if reasons for duty on (Mr. J. D. HUME 
 
 (1839) - 48 
 
 ,, duty on, if justified by excess of Poor and 
 
 County Rates on Land (1836) 45 
 
 effect of import duty on price of (Sir W. 
 
 CLAY, 1852) 66 
 
 immediate effect of opening the ports to, a 
 
 diminution of imports (Col. TORRENS, 1846) 58 
 
 ,, Law scheme of 1846 (Mr. TOOKE, 1846) 58 
 
 Laws, the effect of the, of 1815, on the prices of Grain 
 
 (Mr. COULSON, 1823) 19 
 
 ,, if the existing, altered, and a duty imposed 
 
 on Corn, should it increase Revenue, or relieve the 
 
 burden on Agriculture ? (Mr. SENIOR, 1832) 38 
 
 ,, Probable price of wheat on their repeal (Mr. 
 
 WHITMORE, 1842) 53 
 
 Rents, effect of reduction of (Col. TORRENS, 1844) ... 55 
 COULSON (Mr.) The effect of the Corn Laws of 1815 on 
 
 the prices of Grain (1823) 19 
 
 ,, The effect of a depreciation of Currency 
 
 on industry and production (1823) 20
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 391 
 
 PAGE 
 
 COULSON (Mr.) The effect, on general prices, by Taxes on 
 Foreign commodities, excepting the precious Metals 
 (1829) ... ... 32 
 
 ,, The effect on industry by circulation of 
 
 small Notes of Country Bankers (Mr. COULSON, 
 1830) ... 35 
 
 The benefit to Farmers by the removal of 
 restrictions on Importation of Corn (1833) 40 
 
 ,, If Paper Currency, not representing actual 
 deposits of coin, is to be permitted ? (1838) 47 
 
 ,, If effect of increased demand for Foreign 
 
 commodities, on the exchanges, is disadvantageous 
 to us? (1843) ... 54 
 
 ,, If Legislative measures are expedient to 
 lessen ditto ? (1843) 54 
 
 ,, If law of Primogeniture is favourable to 
 accumulation of wealth ? (1845) 58 
 
 ,, Principles of privileges for Inventions (1851) 65 
 
 ,, Modification of law of liability in Partner- 
 ships (1853) 67 
 
 ,, Establishment of a Sinking Fund of a fixed 
 amount (1856) ... 73 
 
 Effects on wealth of further restraining 
 
 Settlements of Property (1858) 75 
 
 COURTNEY (Lord) International Trade (1871) 92 
 
 ,, In formation of Customs Unions, what 
 
 duties to be imposed, and their distribution ? (1872) 93 
 
 ,, Is the discrimination between Capital and 
 
 Income, in discussing the principles of Direct Taxation, 
 sound reasoning ? (1874) ... ... ... ... ... 95 
 
 If it is proved that an allowance of 
 Tenant Right would be injurious to property, what 
 is the weight of the objection ? (1875) 97 
 
 Are there any Economic reasons why, 
 
 in such state of Society prevailing in British India, 
 that law should give to patrimonial inheritances of 
 small properties an immunity from being charged or 
 sold to meet the debts of life occupiers ? (1879) ... 102
 
 3Q2 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 COURTNEY (Lord) Changes in Economic Science (1885) ... no 
 
 Bimetallism (1889) ... 114 
 
 Use of Gold discoveries (1904) 142 
 
 COWELL (Mr.) Poor Law Settlements (1834) 4 1 
 
 ,, Proposition for a National Office to grant 
 
 Certificates for Deposits of Gold, and its advantages : 
 a loan free of interest, and a perfect paper money 
 
 (1855) ... 7 
 
 ,, If monopoly to Inventors is favourable to 
 
 National Wealth ? (1860) 78 
 
 ,, Does the observance or otherwise of the 
 
 laws or rules relative to the production and con- 
 sumption of Wealth affect the Stability of Nations ? 
 (1862) ... 79 
 
 ,, A uniform Property Tax being most equit- 
 
 able for the maintenance of Government, is any other 
 tax less likely to interfere with the natural processes of 
 Production and Consumption of Wealth ? (1864) ... 83 
 Cox (Harold) War finance and taxation (1915) ... ... 181 
 
 ,, Industrial reconstruction (1916) ... ... 185 
 
 Malthusianism (1918) ... ... ... 192 
 
 Free Trade and Patriotism (1919) 197 
 
 Credit, basis of 145 
 
 Credit, the effect of doing away with the buying and 
 
 selling on (1828) 31 
 
 Would a law to diminish, by denying legal validity 
 to Debts of longer standing than six months, be 
 
 advantageous? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1861) 78 
 
 Balances, The difference, if any, between the, of 
 London Bankers, and the Circulating Notes of Country 
 
 Bankers (Mr. SIMPSON, 1826) 26 
 
 Crisis and Education ... ... ... .. ... ... 135 
 
 Cunard Agreement ... ... ... ... ... ... 136 
 
 Ctirative Legislation, Is it as economical as preventive 
 legislation, such as Factory Acts ? (Sir E. CHADWICK, 
 
 1889) 115 
 
 Currency, the effect of a depreciation of, on industry and 
 
 production (Mr. COULSON, 1823) 20
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 393 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Currency, the tests of the value of, remaining constant, 
 having regard to variation in prices, and foreign 
 
 Exchanges (Mr. TOOKE, 1824) 21 
 
 the effect of Mr. Ricardo's proposal for exclusive 
 Paper, as against the present system under Mr. Peel's 
 
 Bill (Mr. TOOKE, 1826) 26 
 
 ,, might not a proper, be secured by banking being 
 left wholly free from all Legislative interference ? 
 
 (Sir H. PARNELL, 1826-7) 27,28 
 
 ,, the Mint being shut and the Bank maintaining 
 the value of Paper above that of Gold, would the 
 variation in the supply of money cause more incon- 
 venience than if the currency consisted of Gold, Silver, 
 
 and Paper ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1826) 27 
 
 the distinction between, and Capital, and the 
 particular characteristics of each (Mr. PENNINGTON, 
 1830) ... 34 
 
 the best system of, for a commercial country (1827) 2 9 
 would England benefit by adopting the French 
 system of Silver, in lieu of Gold, as a legal tender, 
 leaving Gold the money of convention ? (Mr. MUSHET, 
 
 1827) 29 
 
 How distinguished from Capital (Mr. PENNINGTON, 
 
 1830) 34 
 
 depreciation of, is difference of market and Mint 
 price of gold a proof of ? (Lord OVERSTONE, 1835) ... 43 
 comparative effects of Bank operations, on a 
 
 mixed and metallic (Mr. GRAHAM, 1844) 56 
 
 ,, whether breach of faith, to add Gold as a Standard 
 when obligations contracted in Silver (Mr. MERIVALE, 
 1864) ... 83 
 
 partly gold and partly secured convertible paper, 
 should it be regulated on sound Economic doctrines, 
 with a view to its being at all times the same value as 
 
 metallic currency ? (Mr. WALEY, 1873) 94 
 
 ,, Relation between fall of prices and diminished 
 supply of, and increased demand for Gold (R. GIFFEN, 
 1885) no
 
 394 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Currency, Economic effects of appreciation of Gold 
 
 (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 1886) in 
 
 Practicability of Bimetallism, will it prevent 
 or mitigate fall of prices ? (J. B. MARTIN, 1886) ... 112 
 
 What monetary system is best calculated to 
 avoid evils caused by changes in value of Gold and 
 Silver? (A. MARSHALL, 1887) 112 
 
 Meaning and effect of appreciation or deprecia- 
 tion of Standard ? (Sir T. H. FARRER, 1887) ... 112 
 
 As to issue of i notes in England (H. S. 
 FOXWELL, 1887) 113 
 
 ,, Supply and demand for Precious Metals as one 
 of the factors in determining ratio of exchange for 
 commodities (H. H. GIBBS, 1888) 113 
 
 ,, In case of international bimetallic agreement, 
 would the market ratio conform to legal ratio ? 
 (L. H. COURTNEY, 1889) 114 
 
 Are defects of present system of Banknote 
 issue such as to call for remedial legislation ? 
 (J. B. MARTIN, 1889) 115 
 
 ,, What is importance, as regards demand for the 
 standard monetary substance, of laws declaring the 
 standard and legal tender ? (R. GIFFEN, 1890) ... 116 
 
 ,, As to increase of Gold reserves by an issue of 
 i notes (J. B. MARTIN, 1891) 117 
 
 ,, In what sense is stability in value of Money to 
 be understood, and by what test ascertained ? (Prof. 
 FOXWELL, 1893) 120 
 
 Expediency of re-opening of Indian Mints 
 for coinage of Silver standard money (R. GIFFEN, 
 1894) 121 
 
 By what measures can local currency of a 
 Colony be raised to and maintained at par ? (W. 
 FRASER RAE, 1894) 121 
 
 ,, Value to be attached to bad " money " in 
 Mill's proposition (Bk. III. chap. viii. sec. 3) as to value 
 depending on quantity (Prof. NICHOLSON, 1894) ... 121 
 
 On what conditions in present state of English
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 395 
 
 PACE 
 
 public opinion could this country join in International 
 Monetary Conference ? (Prof. FOXWELL, 1895) ... 122 
 
 Currency, Whether Prof. Marshall's Bimetallism (Gold 
 and Silver) is not preferable to that ordinarily pro- 
 posed ? (Prof. EDGEWORTH, 1895) 122 
 
 ,, What changes necessary in arrangements for 
 
 India ? (Sir RAYMOND WEST, 1898) 124 
 
 ,, Gold Standard or free coinage of Silver in India ? 
 (W. FOWLER, 1899) 126 
 
 Currency and reconstruction 198 
 
 Currency Paper, the advantage derived by England from 
 
 the use of a (Mr. MUSHET, 1826) ... 26 
 
 ,, should it be confined to a single Govern- 
 ment establishment ? (1837) 46 
 
 ,, ,, if its issue, not representing actual 
 
 deposits of coin, should be permitted (Mr. COULSON, 
 1838) ... 47 
 
 if the regulation of ours, a public function 
 
 (Col. TORRENS, 1844) 56 
 
 ,, ,, Convertible, is interest of Issuers, sufficient 
 
 security (1837) 46 
 
 ,, Silver, or double, of silver and gold, expediency 
 
 of (Mr. SENIOR, 1838) 48 
 
 Standard of, comparative evils of alterations in 
 
 the value of (Mr. TOOKE, 1844) 56 
 
 Customs Duties, when not borne by consumers of imported 
 
 commodities (Prof. EDGEWORTH, 1893)... 120 
 
 Customs Tariff for British Empire differentiating against 
 foreign countries : advantages and disadvantages 
 (G. H. MURRAY, 1892) 119 
 
 Customs Unions, In their formation, what duties to be 
 imposed, and the mode of distribution of their Revenue ? 
 (Mr. COURTNEY, 1872) 93 
 
 DALE (Sir D.) Regulation of Wages (1884) 109 
 
 DALHOUSIE (Earl of). Housing of Poor (1884) 108 
 
 DARWIN (Major L.) Municipal Trade (1905) 145 
 
 Death Duties ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 159
 
 396 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Death Duties. What changes necessary to render them a 
 
 true capital tax (SYDNEY BUXTON, 1894) 121 
 
 Debts, courts for recovery of small (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1834) 42 
 Decimal System, and propriety of the pound unit in (Mr. 
 
 LOWE, 1855) 72 
 
 Demand, the proper signification, the test of effective 
 
 degree, and measure of extent (1824) ... 20 
 
 exclusion of the term from science of Political 
 
 Economy (1824) 21 
 
 definition of (Mr. MILL, 1841) 51 
 
 Demobilisation and Industry 179 
 
 Deposits of Gold, proposition for a National Office to grant 
 
 certificates for (Mr. COWELL, 1855) 70 
 
 Depreciation, if high price of commodities as well as high 
 
 price of gold, a necessary proof of (Mr. J. D. HUME, 
 
 1835) ... 44 
 
 Destitution, compulsory provision against (Mr. J. D. HUME, 
 
 1835) 43 
 
 DIBBLEE (G. B.) Germany and Reparation (1919) ... 196 
 
 DILKE (Sir C. W.) Would Free Schools tend to pauperise 
 
 the parents of the Scholars ? (1871) 91 
 
 Can the adoption by Nations of Pro- 
 
 tective measures against certain results of " Free Trade 
 in Labour " be warranted by circumstances ? (1874) ... 96 
 Direct Taxation, Is it sound reasoning to discriminate 
 between Capital and Income, in discussing the principles 
 
 of ? (Mr. COURTNEY, 1874) 95 
 
 Discount, Rate of, Are the fluctuations in the, affected by 
 the Bank Act of 1844, and by the Banking System 
 
 of England ? (Mr. PATTISON, 1875) 96 
 
 Draft on London 142 
 
 Drink and industrial efficiency ... ... ... ... 180 
 
 DUFFERIN (Earl of). Has late Emigration from Ireland 
 
 benefited that country or otherwise ? (1868) 88 
 
 Dumping 187 
 
 Duties, effect of reduction of, on Foreign imports, without 
 equivalent reduction on British goods in Foreign 
 ports (Col. TORRENS, 1842) 52
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 397 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Duties, differential, on Foreign imports (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 
 
 1844) - 55 
 
 differential in one, versus export duties, in another 
 
 country (Mr. MERIVALE, 1860) 77 
 
 Duty, on raw produce, effect of, in raising prices (Mr. 
 
 SENIOR, 1843) 54 
 
 ,, difference of, on articles from our Colonies and from 
 Foreign countries (Sir G. LARPENT, 1843) 55 
 
 Economic Law, Does it exist, and if so, how is it defensible, 
 and what specimens can be adduced ? (Mr. THORNTON, 
 
 1878) 101 
 
 Science, How recent method and attitude 
 differ from those of schools of Ricardo and Mills 
 
 (H. S. FOXWELL, 1883) 107 
 
 ,, ,, Chief differences in position to-day 
 
 and in last generation (L. H. COURTNEY, 1885) no 
 
 Economy, Political, limits of the science (1835) 44 
 
 Public and Private 162 
 
 EDGEWORTH (Prof.) Incidence of Customs Duties (1893) 120 
 
 Bimetallism (1895) 122 
 
 ,, Irish Taxation (1898) 125 
 
 ,, ,, Taxation of site values (1902) ... 135 
 
 ,, ,, Rating of urban land (1906) 148 
 
 Education, economical elements of popular (Mr. CHADWICK, 
 
 1858) ... 76 
 
 ,, of the People, Government interference in (Mr. 
 
 HOLT MACKENZIE, 1847) 61 
 
 ,, Elementary, compulsory system of, and pay- 
 ment by Rates and Taxes (Mr. CHADWICK, 1869) ... 89 
 ,, How can cost of, be best provided, from an 
 
 economical point of view ? (B. MALLET, 1897) 124 
 
 Education and Political Economy ... ... ... 137,201 
 
 Eight Hours' Day, what effect on production of Coal and 
 
 Wages of Miners (J. E. C. MUNRO, 1891) 117 
 
 Eleemosynary Action of the State, how differing from 
 Eleemosynary action of individuals (H. SIDGWICK, 
 1884) 109
 
 398 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Emigration, benefit or disadvantage of continued (Mr. 
 
 MERIVALE, 1854) 68 
 
 ,, application of Colonial funds to (Mr. MERIVALE, 
 
 1857) ... 74 
 
 from Ireland, to what extent, and how defrayed 
 
 (1837) ... 46 
 
 ,, from United Kingdom 172 
 
 Empire and Economic Policy ... ... ... ... ... 128 
 
 Employer and Employed, Remuneration of employed by 
 participation in profit and loss results of Employer 
 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1867) 86 
 
 Employers and Labourers, commercial relations between, 
 
 whether necessarily antagonistic (Mr. GREG, 1869) 89 
 Engagements, breaches of, whether properly treated as 
 
 offences against Criminal Law (Mr. MERIVALE, 1865)... 84 
 Engineers, Amalgamated, effect of conceding their demands, 
 
 1852 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1852) ... , 67 
 
 Enterprise, how affected by substitution of Public for 
 
 Private expenditure (C. BOOTH, 1896) ... 12 
 
 EVERSLEY (Lord) Should minerals belong to the State, or to 
 
 the owners of the surface under which they lie ? (1873) 94 
 
 Would Government Inspection of Indus- 
 
 tries, as Shipping, Mines, and Railways, prove econ- 
 omical in promoting the greater safety of life ? (1875) 96 
 
 Is the present limited number of landed 
 
 proprietors the result of economic laws ? if not, should 
 
 they be increased ? (1876) ... ... 99 
 
 Gold Appreciation (1886) in 
 
 Irish Tenants' Combination (1887) ... 112 
 
 Dual Ownership, Ireland (1888) ... 114 
 
 ,, Trade Unionism (1891) ... 117 
 
 ,, Small Holdings' Legislation (1892) ... 119 
 
 ,, Agricultural Depression (1896) ... 123 
 
 ,, Armaments (1899) I2 6 
 
 ,, Land purchase in Ireland (1903) ... 138 
 
 ,, Agricultural labourers, diminished 
 
 number of (1905) 146 
 
 Gold Production, increase of (1909) ... 153
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 399 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Exchange, European position 204 
 
 Free, Is there such freedom of contract between 
 owner and occupier to satisfy the conditions of, and 
 how far are its actions illustrated by the incidence of 
 Local Taxation ? (Mr. ROGERS, 1877) IO 
 
 Exchanges, if effect of increased demand for foreign com- 
 modities on, is disadvantageous (Mr. COULSON, 1843) 54 
 ,, if legislative measures are expedient to lessen 
 ditto (Mr. COULSON, 1843) 54 
 
 Expenditure on Wages and on Commodities (Mr. SENIOR, 
 
 1845) / - 58 
 
 Exports, Is assumption correct, that a country paying 
 
 " tribute " to another must do so by increase of its ? 
 
 (Sir G. CHESNEY, 1893) 119 
 
 Extravagance and Poverty ... ... ... ... ... 176 
 
 Factories, children employed in (Mr. TOOKE, 1833) ... 41 
 
 Factory Regulation Act, effects of (Mr. SENIOR, 1837) 4^ 
 
 FALK (O. T.) Capitalism, evolution of (1920) 203 
 
 FARRER (Lord) The best mode of dealing with Industrial 
 Undertakings which cannot be regulated by com- 
 petition (1871) 92 
 
 ,, Is it legitimate for the community to inter- 
 
 fere in supplying purchasable goods or services, in 
 accordance with any general rules or principles ? (1877) 99 
 
 ,, Assuming the relations between the con- 
 
 sumer, the landowner, the tenant farmer, and the 
 labourer are unsatisfactory, is there a remedy to be 
 found in restrictions of freedom of action, the pro- 
 motion of individual freedom of action, such as may 
 be found in liberation from the restrictions of the Law 
 of Settlement, and stimulating the labourer by the 
 " Magic of Ownership "? (1879) IO 3 
 
 What is the proper meaning, and what are 
 the true limits, of the doctrine of " Freedom of Con- 
 tract ?" (1880) 104 
 
 Insurance, effect on Wealth (1883) ... 108 
 
 ,, Appreciation of Standard (1887) ... ... 112
 
 400 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 FARRER (Lord) The practicability or expediency of com- 
 pelling Railway Companies to treat all customers 
 equally, without regard to competition (1882)... ... 107 
 
 FAWCETT (Mr.) Whether Poll Tax upon Chinese Immi- 
 grants into Australia defensible (1862) 80 
 
 Soundness of Co-operative Trade Societies 
 
 among the Working Classes (1863) 81 
 
 Is it incorrect to affirm that Poor Rates 
 
 are solely a charge on Land ? (1866) ... ... ... 85 
 
 FERGUSON (R. MUNRO). Land Legislation (1893) 120 
 
 Finance and Industry, relations between ... ... ... 189 
 
 imperial 161 
 
 international co-operation in 201 
 
 Financial Difficulties, The power of a Country in carrying 
 on War, destroyed by (Mr. THOMSON HANKEY, 
 
 1864) 82 
 
 FITZMAURICE (Lord E.) Should the State bear any ex- 
 penses of Poor Relief ? (1881) 105 
 
 Panama Canal (1896) 123 
 
 FLEMING (OWEN). Tariff policy of United States and 
 
 Germany (1910) 162 
 
 ,, Emigration from United Kingdom 
 
 (i9 J 3) 172 
 
 Forestry, Would State be justified in promoting study of ? 
 
 (Sir J. LUBBOCK, 1883) 108 
 
 FORTESCUE (Earl). Payment by Tenant of fine to pre- 
 decessor on entering Farm (1881) 105 
 
 Foundations, what are the advantages and disadvantages 
 of, and in what way, if any, is it desirable to limit 
 them ? (Mr. MORLEY, 1874) 95 
 
 FOWLER (Mr.) Should there be further limiting powers, 
 and to what character and extent, of owners to settle 
 their Real Estate, not also applicable to the settlement 
 
 of Personal Estate ? (1873) 94 
 
 ,, Would convenience and profit arise from 
 
 the resumption of i Bank Notes, without any resulting 
 
 important inconvenience ? (1877) 99 
 
 Are the evils incident to a State Relief of
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 401 
 
 PAGE 
 
 the Poor compensated for by the present Poor Laws ? 
 
 (1878) ..................... 101 
 
 Light Gold (1884) ............ 108 
 
 ,, Indian Currency (1899) ... ...... 126 
 
 FOXWELL (Prof. H. S.) Changes in Economic Science (1883) 107 
 
 i Notes for England (1887) ... 113 
 
 ,, Stability of Standard Money (1893) 120 
 
 ,, International Monetary Confer- 
 
 ence (1895) .................. 122 
 
 ,, Gold reserves and Savings Bank 
 
 (1904) ... 142 
 
 and India (1913) ... 172 
 
 War and financial measures (1915) 181 
 
 Inflation (1916) ......... 185 
 
 ,, Relations between finance and in- 
 
 dustry (1917) .................. 189 
 
 France, Free Trade with (Mr. LARPENT, 1835) ...... 43 
 
 Freedom of Contract ,what is the proper meaning and what the 
 
 true limits of the doctrine of? (Mr. FARRER, 1880) ... 104 
 Freeholders, how would the Legislature be justified in 
 abridging the present uncontrolled discretion of, in 
 London and elsewhere, in fixing the conditions of 
 their Leases ? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1880) ......... 104 
 
 Free Trade, Do assumptions in argument for, correspond 
 
 exactly with Economic facts ? (H. SIDGWICK, 1887) ... 113 
 
 ,, ,, Expediency of deviation from, to Established 
 Customs Union through the Empire (W. FRASER RAE, 
 1888) ..................... 115 
 
 ,, Has Economic basis of, been affected by 
 growth of German Commerce ? (Prof. HEWINS, 1898) ... 125 
 
 ,, ,, protection of Home Produce by ad valorem 
 duty under system of (Mr. CAZENOVE, 1822) ...... 15 
 
 ,, ,, exportation of Gold and fall in prices, caused 
 by importation of Corn, under system of (Mr. MUSHET, 
 1827) ..................... 30 
 
 ,, ,, exceptions, if any, to the benefit of (Mr. 
 TOOKE, 1831) .................. 37 
 
 P.E.C. 2 C
 
 4O2 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Free Trade, its effect on the burthen of the National Debt 
 
 (Mr. THORNTON, 1848-50) 62, 64 
 
 prospects of Agriculture under (Mr. W. WHIT- 
 MORE, 1850) 63 
 
 ,, distinctions between it, and unrestricted 
 
 Competition (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1853) 67 
 
 ,, with France (Mr. LARPENT, 1835) 43 
 
 is an imposition of Customs Duties consistent 
 with principles of, so as to counteract the effect of 
 bounties, or any other protective measures, given by 
 
 Foreign Governments ? (Mr. GIFFEN, 1881) 105 
 
 have the prophecies of the progress of, made 
 at the time of the Repeal of the Corn Laws been 
 falsified, or their fulfilment indefinitely postponed 
 
 (Mr. STEBBING, 1882) 106 
 
 Free Trade in Labour, Will circumstances warrant the 
 adoption of Protective measures against certain results 
 
 of ? (Sir C. W. DILKE, 1874) 96 
 
 Free Trade and Protection 141 
 
 Free Schools, Tendency to pauperisation of parents of 
 
 Scholars (Sir C. W. DILKE, 1871) 91 
 
 Friendly Societies, whether privileges to, ought to be with- 
 held from Trades Unions (Mr. MERIVALE, 1868) ... 88 
 
 German and British War Finance 177 
 
 progress in prosperity 144 
 
 trade, capture of 183 
 
 Germany and her wealth 157 
 
 and Reparation ... ... ... ... ... 196 
 
 GIBB (Sir G. S.) Railways London passenger traffic(i9o8) 155 
 
 National Roads (1912) 170 
 
 ,, ,, Wages, war increases (1916) 184 
 
 ,, Democratic control in industry (1920) ... 202 
 
 GIBBS (Hon. H. C.) National Debt (1891) 118 
 
 Income tax reform (1903) 137 
 
 ,, ,, ,, ,, and origin of income 
 
 152
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 403 
 
 PACE 
 
 GIBBS (Mr. H. H.) Is the adoption of Gold as a monetary 
 standard by other nations dangerous to this country, 
 and is it desirable by agreement to adopt a double 
 standard of Gold and Silver ? (1881) 105 
 
 GIFFEN (Sir R.) Is the supply of the precious Metals over 
 current demands, leading to continued rise in prices, 
 more favourable to material wealth, than a supply just 
 sufficient to maintain an equilibrium in prices, or which 
 is so far deficient that there is a prolonged fall ? 
 
 (1879) I02 
 
 Is an imposition of Customs duties consistent 
 with Free Trade principles, so as to counteract the effect 
 of bounties or any other protective measures given by 
 
 Foreign Governments ? (1881) ... ... ... 105 
 
 ,, Agricultural depression caused by decline in 
 
 Agricultural produce (1881) 106 
 
 ,, Channel Tunnel (1883) ... ... ... 108 
 
 ,, Suez Canal (1884) 109 
 
 Gold and Prices (1885) no 
 
 Ireland, Political connection considered 
 
 Economically (1886) in 
 
 Wealth of United Kingdom (1887) ... 112 
 
 Military Expenditure (1888) ... ... 114 
 
 ,, Currency: Legal Tender Laws (1890) ... 116 
 
 ,, Banking in a Crisis (1890) ... ... 117 
 
 ,, Protection and young Industries (1893) 120 
 
 Indian Currency (1894) 121 
 
 Price of Consols (1899) 126 
 
 ,, Growth of national revenue (1900) ... 130 
 
 population (1901) ... 133 
 
 ,, ,, Import duty on foreign wheat (1903) ... 139 
 Gold, The increase in value of Gold, and decrease in that of 
 commodities, by the purchase of Gold by the Bank of 
 England since passing of Mr. Peel's Bill (Mr. MACAULAY, 
 
 1823) 19 
 
 ,, Difference of market and mint price of, if a proof of 
 
 depreciation of currency (Lord OVERSTONE, 1835) ... 43 
 
 Effects of the influx of new (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1860) 77
 
 404 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Gold, value of, if it be lowered by that produced in California 
 
 and Australia (Mr. NORMAN, 1857) 75 
 
 if it depend on different principles from 
 other metals (Mr. SENIOR, 1841) 51 
 
 effects of recent supplies of, on (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1850) ... 64 
 
 test of alteration in (Mr. TOOKE, 1850) ... 64 
 
 ,, test of fall in, from Californian and Australian 
 supplies (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1854) 69 
 
 if a diminution in, justify an alteration of 
 the standard (Mr. TOOKE, 1851) 66 
 
 drain of, restriction of its discounts by the Bank in 
 (Mr. MILL, 1856) 73 
 
 Mines, new, whether they have changed the conditions 
 
 of International Trade (Mr. LESLIE, 1863) 82 
 
 Gold and Silver, The effect of a Bill rendering both, legal 
 
 tenders to any amount (Mr. MUSHET, 1823) 18 
 
 the desirability of reducing the standard, 
 
 the cost of production of, not having increased relatively 
 to that of other commodities (Mr. THOMPSON, 1830) ... 34 
 
 ,, is Gold as a monetary standard by other 
 Nations dangerous to this country, and is it desirable 
 by agreement to adopt a double standard of (Mr. GIBBS, 
 1881) 105 
 
 ,, Mine, The least productive that shall be 
 
 worked (Mr. SENIOR, 1826 1827) 26, 28 
 
 Gold and South Africa 127 
 
 discoveries, use of 142 
 
 ,, production, increase of 153 
 
 Gold reserves 151,161 
 
 and Savings Banks 142 
 
 and India ... ... ... ... ... 172 
 
 Goods or Services, Is it legitimate by any general rules or 
 principles for the community to interfere in the supply 
 
 of purchaseable ? (Mr. FARRER, 1877) 99 
 
 Government, maintenance of, by Per-Centage Tax on Pro- 
 perty (Mr. COWELL, 1864) 83 
 
 direction of private industry (Mr. MILL, 1845) ... 59
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 405 
 
 PACE 
 
 Government, investment of funds ... ... ... ... 163 
 
 Paternal 141 
 
 whether England or Scotland more con- 
 veniently sized to govern ... ... ... ... 131 
 
 GRAHAM (Mr.) Comparative effects of Bank operations on 
 
 a mixed and on an entirely metallic Currency (1844) ... 56 
 
 ,, Do prices depend on the quantity of Cur- 
 rency ? (1840) 50 
 
 Great Britain, On what conditions do the manufacturing 
 predominance of, depend, and are there any reasons 
 to think that they have or may be endangered ? (Mr. 
 
 MUNDELLA, 1877) IOO 
 
 ,, ,, and Canada, Do the existing relations between, 
 benefit economically both or either of the two Countries? 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1876) 98 
 
 Great Britain and Ireland, fiscal relations 169 
 
 GREG (Mr.) Commercial relation between Employers and 
 Labourers, whether always necessarily antagonistic 
 
 1869) 89 
 
 ,, Is open Competition the good it is represented 
 to be? (1872) 93 
 
 GRENFELL (Mr. H. R.) Is the present stagnation of Trade 
 exceptional, and does it present features similar to 
 those of periodical Commercial depressions ? (1877) ... 100 
 
 Wages (1883) 108 
 
 ,, ,, Landlord and Money Lender (1884) ... 109 
 
 ,, Commons enclosure (1885) ... ... no 
 
 ,, Should a remedy to the evils arising 
 
 from dislocation of prices of the Precious Metals be 
 applied by the Government, regarding the Metropolitan 
 position of England as the Political centre of the British 
 Empire, or as the Commercial centre of the World ? 
 
 (1879) 102 
 
 ,, Value of the Precious Metals depending on 
 cost of production (1882) 106 
 
 GROTE (Mr.) Pecuniary loss to Proprietors of Estates in 
 the West Indies by enfranchisement of Slaves 
 (1824) 22
 
 406 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Hackney Coaches, Limitation by Law to their number or 
 
 fixed rates (Mr. PREVOST, 1826) 26 
 
 HAMILTON (Lord G.) National Poor Relief (1911) 164 
 
 ,, Compulsory national service (1914) 175 
 
 HAN KEY (Mr. J. A.) Does a Loan enable the Community 
 
 to throw part of a War burthen on posterity ? (1861) 78 
 
 HAN KEY (Mr. THOMSON). If a high rate of Interest be in- 
 jurious to this country ? (1858) 75 
 
 Is the power of a Country to 
 make War destroyed or diminished by Financial diffi- 
 culties ? (1864) 82 
 
 HARCOURT (Sir W.) Under existing modes of raising the 
 Revenue, is it better, economically, to apply a Surplus 
 in reducing Taxation or paying off debt ? (1876) ... 98 
 
 HARE (Mr.) Legislation most desirable to promote the 
 erection and disposal of adequate dwellings among 
 the Working Classes (1867) 87 
 
 HARE (Mr.) Is an uniform Poor Law Rating over the 
 
 whole Metropolis objectionable ? (1870) 91 
 
 Advantages of permitting lands to be held 
 for Public or Charitable uses if vested in responsible 
 Government Officers (1872) 93 
 
 HARRISON (Mr.) Is it consistent with the practice of 
 Adam Smith that the Laws of Industry should be 
 treated as an independent and absolute science ? 
 
 (1878) loo 
 
 Can any economic arrangement be found 
 
 reconciling the desire of workmen for shorter hours of 
 labour with increasing use and costliness of machinery 
 
 (1882) 107 
 
 Population Statistics (1885) ... ... no 
 
 ,, Small Holdings Legislation (1885) ... in 
 
 HEWINS (Prof.) Free Trade and German Commerce (1898) 125 
 Empire and economic policy (1900) ... 128 
 
 ,, Crisis and education (1902) ... ... 135 
 
 ,, Colonies and United Kingdom, closer 
 
 commercial relations (1903) 139 
 
 ,, ,, Imperial preference (1906) 149
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 407 
 
 PAGE 
 
 HEWINS (Prof.) Tariff, ideal British (1908) 156 
 
 Most-favoured Nation clause (1910) ... 163 
 Great Britain and Ireland, fiscal relations 
 
 (1912) 169 
 
 HICHENS (W. L.) League of Nations, economic section 
 
 (1918) ... 194 
 
 ,, ,, Arbitration on Wages (1920) 204 
 
 HIGGS (HENRY). Irish Taxation (1897) 124 
 
 ,, Monopoly (1899) 126 
 
 Taxation for revenue only (1905) ... 144 
 
 ,, Economy, public and private (1910) ... 162 
 
 ,, Political Economy Club, changes since 
 
 1821 (1920) 203 
 
 HILL (Sir ROWLAND). If distribution of small Parcels by 
 
 the Post, be at variance with Political Economy (1859) 7^ 
 Should Cab Fares be fixed by 
 
 Law? (1863) 81 
 
 HIRST (F. W.) Waste (1909) 159 
 
 ,, Naval War and Trade (1912) 170 
 
 Budget of 1914 (1914) 177 
 
 War, economic results of (1915) 179 
 
 HOLLAND (Mr.) An efficient countervailing duty on Corn 
 
 (1821) 5 
 
 ,, The benefit to this Country by its loans 
 
 to the New States of South America (1825) 24 
 
 HOLLAND-MARTIN (R.) Agricultural Labourers in Midlands 
 
 (1913) ... 174 
 HOOPER (WYNNARD). Gold and South Africa (1899) ... 127 
 
 ,, Taxation proportion between 
 
 direct and indirect (1902) 136 
 
 ,, Banking in Canada (1908) 154 
 
 ,, Germany and her Wealth (1908) ... 157 
 
 Bank Reserves (1913) 173 
 
 ,. ,, Banks and support to Trade (1916) 184 
 
 House Tax, incidence of remission on Tenant and Land- 
 lord (1834) ... 42 
 
 Housing of Poor, What justification for State or Muni- 
 cipal contribution ? (Lord DALHOUSIE, 1884) ... 108
 
 408 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 Housing of Poor, Should Municipalities undertake ? 
 
 (F. W. BUXTON, 1898) 125 
 
 Housing problem of London 132 
 
 HUBBARD (Hon. E.) Trusts (1902) 134 
 
 Credit, basis of (1905) 145 
 
 Minimum Wage (1912) 168 
 
 ,, Post-War economic policy (1917) ... 187 
 
 HUME (Mr. J. D.) Compulsory provision against Desti- 
 tution (1835) 43 
 
 If high price of Commodities, as well 
 
 as high price of Gold, a necessary proof of depreciation ? 
 
 (1835) ... 44 
 
 Pressure on the Money Market, Dec. 
 
 1836(1836) 46 
 
 ,, Reasons for duty on Foreign Corn 
 
 (1839) ... 48 
 
 Imperial Preference 149,152 
 
 Importation, Can the Wealth of the State derive any ad- 
 vantage by restrictions on ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1823) ... 19 
 
 Import Duties, Incidence of, on Consumers (Mr. PENNING- 
 
 TON, 1834) 41 
 
 Is the levying of, for encouraging home 
 manufacture and production, consistent, economically, 
 with the best interests of the country so levying ? 
 (Mr. H. McCuLLOCH, 1876) 99 
 
 Income, In estimating the, of a Country, should that of 
 Professional Persons be excluded on the ground of their 
 being included in Income of the other classes ? (Mr. 
 
 McCuLLOCH, 1829) 32 
 
 Tax, A Tax on Capital on all species of Property 
 
 equitable to all classes (1824) 21 
 
 the expediency of repealing all Taxes on 
 luxuries, presuming an, could be fairly assessed 
 
 (Mr. MCCULLOCH, 1825) 25 
 
 ,, assessment of, on different classes of Trading, 
 so as to make each contribute in proportion to his 
 ability (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1831) 37
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 409 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Income-Tax, assessment of Income of Professional men, 
 as compared with Landlords and Capitalists (Mr. 
 
 McCuLLOCH, 1831) 38 
 
 ,, if its imposition be justifiable (Mr. McCuL- 
 
 LOCH, 1842) 53 
 
 ,, ,, Conditions of a just one (Mr. MILL, 1852) ... 67 
 ,, ,, Equitable assessment of (Mr. MILL, 1849) ... 62 
 ,, ,, an uniform, whether in accordance with the 
 
 just principles of Taxation (Mr. LOWE, 1861) ... 79 
 ,, ,, an uniform, at variance with the just princi- 
 ples of Taxation (Mr. THORNTON, 1862) 80 
 
 ,, what circumstances, and in respect of what 
 Income or Property, does a Tax cease to be so, and 
 become a rent charge to the State ? (Mr. BAXTER, 
 
 1874) 9& 
 
 128, 137, 150, 152, 190 
 
 India, plan for collecting Land Revenue of (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 
 
 1840) 50 
 
 famines in, measures for prevention or mitigation 
 of (Mr. MERIVALE, 1867) 86 
 
 Advantages or otherwise to England, arising from 
 the possession of (Mr. MERIVALE, 1870) 91 
 
 How far true, economically, is it becoming im- 
 practicable for India to be governed by this country ? 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1874) 96 
 
 Is it consistent with sound financial principles for 
 the maintenance by the Indian Government of an 
 Import Duty on manufactured goods ? (Mr. MORLEY, 
 1876) 9& 
 
 What measures, if any, should be taken by the Indian 
 Government to protect itself from loss to its Revenue 
 on its exchange operations, arising from depreciation 
 of silver ? (Col. CHESNEY, 1878) 101 
 
 Is it possible, and if so, desirable, to maintain Bi- 
 metallism, regardless of monetary arrangements of 
 any other country ? (Mr. THORNTON, 1879) 103 
 
 Increase of population in, and how to be fed (Mr. 
 CAIRD, 1882) 106
 
 41 o Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 India and Protection ... ... ... ... ... ... 169 
 
 Tariff Reform 158 
 
 Indian famines ... ... ... ... ... ... 86, 128 
 
 Indies, West, pecuniary loss to proprietors of estates in the, 
 
 by enfranchisement of Slaves (Mr. GROTE, 1824) ... 22 
 
 Industrial Management, How far have Workmen a right to 
 
 interference in ? (J. ST. LOE STRACHEY, 1897) ... 124 
 
 Industrial reconstruction ... ... ... ... ... 185 
 
 Industrial Undertakings which cannot be regulated by 
 
 competition (Mr. FARRER, 1871) 92 
 
 such as Water Works, Gas or Light- 
 ing Works, Tramways, and the like, under what 
 management should they be placed ? (Mr. JEVONS, 
 1880) 103 
 
 Industries, such as Shipping, Mines, and Railways, would 
 Government Inspection of, prove economical in pro- 
 moting greater security of life ? (Mr. LEFEVRE, 1875) 96 
 
 Industry, defensible interference with (Mr. ROGERS, 1865) 85 
 is the treatment of the laws of, as an independent 
 and abstract science, consistent with the practice of 
 
 Adam Smith ? (Mr. HARRISON, 1878) 100 
 
 ,, Can the Economist approve of the attempt of an 
 Industrial Class to overrule the freedom of action of 
 the individual ? (Mr. MORLEY, 1879) 102 
 
 Industry, Conflict of interest between Labour and Capital 
 
 on question of State interference with (C. BOOTH, 1888) 114 
 
 Industry and democratic control 202 
 
 Inflation 185 
 
 Insurance, Is Wealth of country increased or diminished 
 
 by? (Sir T. H. FARRER, 1883) 108 
 
 Interest, rise in rate of, as compared with ten years back 
 
 (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1865) 84 
 
 Interest on Deposits, the allowance of, by Bank of England 
 
 and other Banks, desirable (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1830) 35 
 
 Interest of Money, if it must be equal over the Civilised 
 
 world (Mr. MERIVALE, 1855) 70 
 
 if a high rate be injurious to this 
 Country (Mr. THOMSON HANKEY, 1858) 75
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 411 
 
 PAGE 
 
 International Communication, in the formation and acquisi- 
 tion of Lines of, such as the Suez Canal, under what 
 conditions may the State act in conformity with the 
 principles of Political Economy ? (Mr. CHADWICK, 
 1876) 98 
 
 International Trade, theory of (Mr. COURTNEY, 1871) ... 92 
 
 Invalidity pensions ... ... ... ... ... ... 158 
 
 Inventions, principles of privileges for (Mr. COULSON, 
 
 1851) 65 
 
 Inventors, if monopoly to, be favourable to national wealth 
 
 (Mr. COWELL, 1860) 78 
 
 Ireland, measures for retarding increase of population in 
 
 (Sir H. PARNELL, 1825) 24 
 
 Ireland, Measures most fitting for improving the condition 
 
 of the people of (Sir H. PARNELL, 1825) 24 
 
 Poor Laws in (Lord MONTEAGLE, 1833) 41 
 
 Establishment of peasant proprietors on waste 
 
 lands of (Mr. THORNTON, 1849) 62 
 
 ,, The possibility of peasant proprietorship in (Mr. 
 
 JEVONS, 1881) 104 
 
 Emigration from, to what extent, and how defrayed 
 
 (1837) ... 46 
 
 ,, beneficial or otherwise to that 
 
 Country (Lord DUFFERIN, 1868) 88 
 
 ,, Is political connection of, with Great Britain 
 
 an Economic gain or loss to latter ? (R. GIFFEN, 
 
 1886) in 
 
 Is combination of Tenants for abatements of Rent 
 Economically justifiable ? (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 
 
 1887) 112 
 
 Dual ownership of Land in (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 
 
 1888) 114 
 
 ,, In absence of separate financial treatment of, what 
 changes required in Taxation of United Kingdom ? 
 
 (H. HIGGS, 1877) 124 
 
 ,, Is population of, overtaxed ? (Prof. EDGE- 
 WORTH, 1898) 125 
 
 Irish Land purchase 138
 
 412 Political Economy Club 
 
 JACKSON (Col. RAYNSFORD). Magnitude of States and 
 
 Political Economy (1887) 112 
 
 ,, ,, Telephone Companies (1892) 118 
 
 JACKSON (Rt. Hon. F.) Limited Liability (1901) 131 
 
 ,, ,, Bank of England, changes in 
 
 recent years (1903) 138 
 
 Draft on London (1904) 142 
 
 Bills of Exchange Act, 1882 (1911) 164 
 
 ,, Demobilisation and industry(i9i5) 179 
 
 JEVONS (Mr.) Is it necessary and practicable to make any 
 great reform in the Administration of Railways in the 
 
 United Kingdom ? (1875) 97 
 
 ,, What is the relation of value to utility and 
 
 labour ? (1877) 99 
 
 Are those Economists approving of strikes, 
 
 in some degree responsible for the disastrous strikes 
 
 now occurring ? (1878) 100 
 
 Under what management ought extensive 
 
 Industrial undertakings, such as Water Works, Gas 
 or Lighting Works, Tramways, and the like, to be 
 
 placed ? (1880) 103 
 
 ,, The possibility of peasant proprietorship in 
 Ireland (1881) 104 
 
 Joint Stock Companies, disadvantages, if any, attending 
 
 partnerships in (Mr. TOOKE, 1825) 23 
 
 Justice and Morality, considerations of, to what extent 
 
 admissible (Mr. MACLEOD, 1860) 78 
 
 KEYNES (J. M.) Bankers and trade fluctuations (1913) ... 174 
 German and British War finance (1914)... 177 
 
 Labour, on what does the demand for, depend ? (Rev. T. R. 
 
 MALTHUS, 1821, 1822, 1823) ... 9, 10, n, 12, 14, 18 
 
 the distinction between productive and unproduc- 
 tive (1824) 22 
 
 signification of term to fermentation and vege- 
 tation (1827) ' 29
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 413 
 
 FACE 
 
 Labour, what determines the proportion of Profits going 
 
 to ? (1823) 20 
 
 ,, effect of purchase of Commodities on employment 
 of (Mr. MILL, 1856) 73 
 
 legislative interference to regulate hours and 
 mode of (Mr. CHAD WICK, 1838 44) 48, 56 
 
 Division of, dexterity from, at the expense of work- 
 man's intellectual, social, and martial virtues (Mr. 
 CHADWICK, 1841) 52 
 
 ,, productive, employment of paupers, soldiers, and 
 prisoners in (Mr. MERIVALE, 1839) 49 
 
 Ditto ditto (1859) 68 
 
 Labour and Consumption, definition of productive and un- 
 productive (Mr. MILL, 1863) 81 
 
 demand for, diminished by Machinery (Mr. D. 
 RICARDO, 1821) 7, 8, 10, ii 
 
 Do conditions determining price of, differ from 
 those determining price of commodities ? (Sir RAY- 
 MOND WEST, 1893) 120 
 
 Various economic effects of combination (W. C. 
 SIDGWICK, 1891) 118 
 
 Is it expedient to check Pauper Immigration ? 
 (F. W. BUXTOX, 1891) 118 
 
 ,, Is interference with Free Immigration of, Economi- 
 cally justifiable ? (G. H. MURRAY, 1894) 121 
 
 Labour Disputes, Utility of Councils of Arbitration and 
 
 Conciliation in (Sir B. SAMUELSON, 1890) 116 
 
 Labourer, Absorption of produce by, larger than it was 
 
 ten or twelve years since (Mr. CAZENOVE, 1824) 2I 
 Labourers, Effect on English, by competition of Irish (Mr. 
 
 MILL, 1823) 20 
 
 allowance of Foreign, with native competition, 
 
 with or without restrictions (Mr. TOOKE, 1825) ... 23 
 
 ,, influx of Foreign, tending to increase 
 
 the aggregate produce of the country (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1825) 23 
 
 Labouring Classes, Competition of Machinery with Manual 
 
 Labour injurious to the (Mr. PEXXIXGTOX, 1831) ... 36
 
 414 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 Labour, Shorter Hours of, Can any economic arrangement 
 be found, reconciling the desire of the workman for, 
 with increasing use and costliness of machinery (Mr. 
 
 HARRISON, 1882) 107 
 
 Laissez-faire 171, 178 
 
 Land, Objections and advantages of Dual Ownership of 
 
 (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 1882) 107 
 
 Nationalisation of (J. MACDONELL, 1883) 107 
 
 ,, Diminishing Returns in Agriculture (Hon. E. F. 
 
 LEVESON-GOWER, 1885) no 
 
 Economic advantage of empowering Local 
 Authorities to purchase and let in small Farms (F. 
 
 HARRISON, 1885) m 
 
 Economic results of creation of Small Ownerships 
 
 by State action (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 1892) 119 
 
 In further change in system, is it desirable to rely 
 on giving Local Authorities power to acquire ? 
 
 (R. MUNRO FERGUSON, 1893) 120 
 
 Causes of depression of Agriculture (G. J. SHAW- 
 LEFEVRE, 1896) 123 
 
 property in, its foundation and limits (Mr. THORNTON, 
 
 1849) 63 
 
 Government price on, in a New Colony (Mr. LARPENT, 
 
 1834) 42 
 
 expediency of owning, with intent to its Culture by 
 
 owner and his family (Mr. CHADWICK, 1864) 82 
 
 advantages of, being held for Public or Charitable 
 uses, if vested in responsible Government Officers 
 
 (Mr. HARE, 1872) 93 
 
 Landed Property, division of, amongst descendants in France 
 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1868) 88 
 
 Landed Proprietors, Is the limited number of, the result of 
 Economic laws ; if not, should they be increased ? (Mr. 
 
 LEFEVRE, 1876) 99 
 
 Landlord and Tenant, whether relations of, should be left to 
 Private Interest, the State only enforcing the Contract 
 (Mr. LESLIE, 1866) ... 85
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 415 
 
 PACK 
 
 Landlord and Tenant, determination of Agricultural Rent 
 
 (Mr. CAIRNES, 1870) 90 
 
 Land Revenue of India, Plan for collecting (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 
 
 1840) 50 
 
 Land, Settlement and Entail of, restricting latitude allowed 
 
 by law (Mr. WALEY, 1870) 91 
 
 Lands, waste, of Ireland, establishment of peasant pro- 
 prietors on (Mr. THORNTON, 1849) 62 
 
 LARPENT (Sir GEORGE). Benefit to Mother Country by 
 
 restrictions of the Colonial system (1821 22) 9, 10, n, 12,13 
 ,, Government price on Land in a 
 
 new Colony (1834) 42 
 
 Free Trade with France (1835) ... 43 
 
 ,, Difference of duty on articles from 
 
 Our Colonies and from foreign Countries (1843) ... 55 
 ,, ,, Indirect and direct taxation 
 
 (i845) - 57 
 
 Law of Settlement, In liberation from the restrictions of, 
 would the relations between the consumer, the land- 
 owner, the tenant farmer, and the labourer be more 
 satisfactory, and so stimulate the labourer by the 
 " Magic of Ownership " ? (Mr. FARRER, 1879) ... 103 
 
 Landlord, What is the difference between a Landlord and 
 
 a Money-Lender ? (H. R. GRENFELL, (1884 109 
 
 League of Nations, economic section ... ... ... ... 194 
 
 LEE (S.) Remuneration of Literature (1897) 124 
 
 LEE- WARNER (Sir W.) State Protection for Borrowers 
 
 (1898) 125 
 
 ,, ,, Indian famines (1900) 128 
 
 Paternal government (1904) ... 141 
 
 Tariff Reform and India (1909)... 158 
 
 Legal Tender, The effect of the allowance of two Metals 
 
 to be, to any extent (Col. TORRENS, 1830) 34 
 
 LESLIE (Mr.) The conditions of International Trade, 
 whether changed by the discovery of New Gold Mines 
 (1863) ... 82 
 
 Should the relations of Landlord and Tenant
 
 4i 6 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 be left to private interest, the State only enforcing 
 
 the Contract (1866) 85 
 
 LESLIE (Mr.) Comparative advantages of different Systems 
 used in great States for raising and recruiting Annies 
 
 (1867) 87 
 
 Is the doctrine of the equality of the rate of 
 
 profit well founded ? (1869) 90 
 
 ,, Prices, how affected by the New Gold Mines 
 
 (1873) ... ... 94 
 
 What causes the excess of imports over ex- 
 
 ports in the Trade of the United Kingdom (1875) ... 97 
 
 Letters, on conveying, by post under stamped envelopes 
 
 (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1839) 49 
 
 LEVESON-GOWER (Hon. E. F.) Increase of Population 
 
 and Subsistence (1883) 107 
 
 ,, Law of Diminishing 
 Returns in Agriculture (1885) no 
 
 Liability of Employer, How regulated according to Eco- 
 nomic principles ? (Sir G. BRAMWELL, 1880) 104 
 
 Life Insurance Offices, beneficial interference with, by 
 
 Government (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1870) ... ... 91 
 
 Light Gold, How should it be replaced ? (W. FOWLER, 
 
 1884) 108 
 
 Limited Liability, how applicable (Mr. LOWE, 1856) ... 72 
 principle of, for Joint Stock Banks (Mr. 
 WILKINSON, 1858) 75 
 
 Limited Liability ... ... ... ... ... ... 131 
 
 Limited Liability, Effect of system in causing Depression 
 
 of Trade (H. R. GRENFELL, 1888) 113 
 
 Literature, Basis of pecuniary Payment for product of an 
 
 Author's brain (W. FRASER RAE, 1886) in 
 
 Economic principles determining Remunera- 
 tion of (SYDNEY LEE, 1897) 124 
 
 Literary Property, extension of privileges of (Mr. CHAD- 
 WICK, 1838) 48 
 
 Loan, whether enabling the community to throw part of 
 j a War burthen on posterity (Mr. J. A. HANKEY, 
 1861) ... 78
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 417 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Loans, if ever more advantageous than Taxation for public 
 
 expenditure (Mr. THORNTON, 1852) ... 66 
 
 ,, for war charges, circumstances which justify (Mr. 
 
 CHADWICK, 1855) 70 
 
 ,, relief to the present generation by, instead of 
 
 Taxation for war expenditure (Mr. MILL, 1855) ... 72 
 
 ,, Government, contraction of, in Stocks bearing the 
 
 market rate of interest (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1856) ... 72 
 raised from Countrymen or Foreigners, for War- 
 like or other unproductive expenditure, most advan- 
 tageous (Mr. MERIVALE, 1863) 82 
 
 Local Taxation, Is present system in Rural districts 
 equitable or expedient ? (Sx. LOE STRACHEY, 
 1896) 123 
 
 LOCH (C. S.) Do social reforms benefit the classes 
 
 intended? (1911) 166 
 
 LOWE (Mr.) Decimal System, and propriety of the pound 
 
 unit in (1855) ... 72 
 
 ,, Applicability of Limited Liability (1856) ... 72 
 
 ,, Non-Compensation of Public Corporations for 
 
 property resumed by the State (1857) 74 
 
 ,, If Patents are in accordance with Economic 
 
 science (1859) 77 
 
 An uniform Income Tax, if in accordance 
 
 with just principles of Taxation (1861) 75 
 
 What results have followed the publication 
 of the " Wealth of Nations," and in what direction 
 does its doctrines still remain to be applied ? 
 (1876) 98 
 
 LUBBOCK (Rt. Hon. Sir J.) Forestry (1883) 108 
 
 LYALL (Mr.) The effect of the Navigation Laws upon the 
 Political and Commercial interests of this Country 
 
 (1823) ... 19 
 
 ,, The diminished rate of Profit since the Peace, 
 and the causes of the diminution (1830) ... 35, 37 
 The effect of the Navigation Laws on Ship- 
 ping and Commerce of this Country, and is their con- 
 tinuance desirable ? (1831 32) 37, 38
 
 418 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 MACAULAY (Mr.) Practical remedy for the evils of the 
 
 Poor Laws (1821 22) 9 
 
 The increase in value of Gold and de- 
 
 crease of that of commodities, by the purchase of Gold 
 by the Bank of England since passing of Mr. Peel's 
 
 BUI (1823) 19 
 
 ,, The effect on Commerce, &c., by the 
 abolition of protective duties on Colonial produce 
 (1826) 27 
 
 McCuLLOCH (Mr. J. R.) The Succession to Property not 
 regulated by other than the custom of primogeniture, 
 
 is the custom good or otherwise (1825) 24 
 
 ,, The expediency of repealing all 
 
 Taxes on luxuries, presuming an Income Tax could be 
 
 fairly assessed (1825) 25 
 
 ,, ,, The Mint being shut, and the 
 
 Bank maintaining the value of Paper above that of 
 Gold, would the variation in the supply of Money cause 
 more inconvenience than if the Currency consisted of 
 
 Gold, Silver, and Paper ? (1826) 27 
 
 In estimating the Income of a 
 
 country, should that of Professional Persons be ex- 
 cluded on the ground of their being included in Income 
 
 of the other classes ? (1829) 32 
 
 ,, ,, Did the Poor Laws of England 
 between 1600 and 1795 increase or diminish the popu- 
 lation ? (1829) 33 
 
 Would the establishment in Lon- 
 
 don of more than one Banking Company for the issue 
 of Notes on demand benefit the public ? (1829) ... 33 
 The desirability of the allowance 
 
 by the Bank of England and other Banks, of Interest 
 
 on Deposits (1830) 35 
 
 ,, Does a special rise in the money 
 price of one commodity diminish that of others ? (1831) 36 
 ,, ,, Assessment of Income Tax on 
 different classes of Trading, so that each contributes 
 in proportion to his ability (1831) 37
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 419 
 
 PAGE 
 
 McCuLLOCH (Mr. J. R.) Assessment of Income of Profes- 
 sional men, as compared with Landlords and Capitalists 
 
 (1831) 38 
 
 ,, Would a repression of Smuggling, 
 
 by reduction of Taxes, diminish the Revenue of the 
 
 country? (1833) 40 
 
 Courts for recovery of Small 
 
 Debts (1834) 42 
 
 ,, Heavy taxation of Agriculturists 
 
 to be attended to in Corn-trade legislation (1836) ... 45 
 
 ,, ,, Derangement of credit in Trade 
 
 of Great Britain and United States, 1837 ( Z 837) 47 
 
 ,, ,, Ricardo's additions to science of 
 
 Political Economy (1838) 48 
 
 ,, On conveying Letters by post 
 
 under stamped envelopes (1839) 49 
 
 ,, If the independence or incorpora- 
 
 tion of Canada with the United States would affect 
 
 Great Britain (1839) 49 
 
 ,, Plans for collecting the Land 
 
 Revenue of India (1840) 50 
 
 ,, ,, Dependence of profits on the 
 
 price of Commodities exchanged for others before 
 being consumed (1840) ... ... ... ... ... 51 
 
 ,, ,, Efforts to civilise Central Africa 
 
 (1841) ... 52 
 
 ,, If the imposition of an Income 
 
 Tax is justifiable (1842) 53 
 
 ,, Effect of extraordinary extension 
 
 of manufacturing industry (1843) 55 
 
 ,, ,, If differential Duties on Foreign 
 
 Imports are necessary (1844) 55 
 
 ,, Probable effects of Mr. Tooke's 
 plan, for the circulation, in the crisis of 1847 (1848) ... 61 
 McCuLLOCH (Mr. HUGH). Are Import Duties for encourag- 
 ing home manufacture and production consistent, 
 economically, with the best interests of the country 
 levying them ? (1876) 99
 
 420 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 MACDONELL (Sir J.) The principles of the Bankruptcy Law 
 
 (1881) ..................... 105 
 
 Political Economy Club, history of 
 
 Land Nationalisation (1883) ...... 107 
 
 Colonial Expansion (1885) ...... no 
 
 Trusts (1889) ............ 115 
 
 Expropriation for Public purposes (1890) 117 
 
 Unemployed problem (1895) ... ... 122 
 
 Machinery, Its tendency to diminish the demand for 
 
 Labour (Mr. RICARDO, 1821 22) ...... 7, 8, 10, u 
 
 MACKAY (T.) Working-class dwellings (1900) ...... 129 
 
 Poor Law of 1834 ( I 96) ......... *49 
 
 ,, Wages and a legal rate (1908) ...... 155 
 
 ,, Socialistic opinion, growth of (1911) ... 165 
 MACKENZIE (Mr. HOLT). Government interference in edu- 
 
 cation of the people (1847) ............ 6 1 
 
 ,, Taxes affecting the labouring 
 
 classes (1852) ..................... 67 
 
 MACLEOD (Mr.) Unproductive Consumption (1860) ... 77 
 
 ,, Admissible extent of considerations of 
 
 Justice and Morality (1860) ............ 78 
 
 MALLET (Mr.) Has the French Law of Inheritance a 
 tendency injurious to the accumulation of Wealth ? 
 
 (1825) ..................... 24 
 
 MALLET (Sir BERNARD). New Markets and Colonies (1895) 122 
 
 ,, Cost of Education (1897) ... 124 
 
 Income Tax defects (1900) ... 128 
 
 (Sir CHARLES). Capital Levy (1918) ...... 192 
 
 ,, Post- War commercial relations 
 
 (1916) ... 183 
 ,, (Sir Louis). Should the existing proportion be- 
 tween direct and indirect Taxation be maintained ? 
 
 (1872) ............... ... 93 
 
 MALTHUS (Rev. T. R.) Can there be a general glut of Com- 
 
 modities ? (1821) ............... 5,7.8 
 
 ,, ,, On what does the demand for 
 
 Labour depend ? (1821-22-23) 9> IO I][ I2 T 4 J 8
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 421 
 
 PAGE 
 
 MALTHUS (Rev. T. R.) The practical effects of measuring 
 prices and rate of Profit, or a medium subject to 
 
 variation in its relation to Labour (1825) 25 
 
 ,, ,, In saying that a commodity is 
 
 steady in its value, to what do we refer ? (1825) ... 25 
 ,, ,, The effect on Wealth and Capital 
 
 of an increasing taste for menial Servants, compared 
 with material products, foreign and domestic (1826) ... 27 
 ,, How is the difference in the value 
 
 of money in different countries determined, and how 
 
 estimated? (1828) 32 
 
 ,, ,, Low prices of exportable com- 
 modities (1834) 41 
 
 American Tariff (1834) 41 
 
 Malthusianism 192 
 
 Manufactures, Will threatened loss of pre-eminence in, 
 affect real prosperity of the country ? (W. STEBBING, 
 
 1895) 122 
 
 Manufacturing industry, effect of extraordinary extension 
 
 of (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1843) 55 
 
 MARSHALL (Prof. A.) Gold and Silver (1887) 112 
 
 Trade Unions (1889) 116 
 
 ,, Wages Fund Doctrine (1895) ... 122 
 
 MARTIN (J. B.) Bimetallism (1886) 112 
 
 Bank Note Issue (1889) 115 
 
 ,, i Notes (1891) 117 
 
 Charitable Relief (1892) 119 
 
 Thrift and the State (1896) 123 
 
 Merchandise Marks Act, To what extent Economically 
 defensible, or working of advantageous ? (J. FLETCHER 
 
 MOULTON (1894) 121 
 
 Merchants' Petition and present policy ... ... ... 156 
 
 MERIVALE (Mr.) Proposition of Adam Smith, " Capital 
 employed in Foreign Trade only half as encouraging 
 to the industry of this country as that in the Home 
 
 Trade " (1839) 49 
 
 ,, Employment of Paupers, Soldiers, and 
 Prisoners in productive labour (1839) 49
 
 422 Political Economy Club 
 
 FACE 
 
 MERTVALE (Mr.) Allotments to agricultural labourers 
 
 (1845) -. 58 
 
 ,, Prevention of raising of money by mort- 
 gage of future crops (1848) 62 
 
 Home Convict Labour in lieu of trans- 
 portation (1853) 68 
 
 Benefit or disadvantage of continued 
 Emigration (1854) 68 
 
 Proposition, that interest of money must 
 be equal over the civilised world (1855) 70 
 
 ,, If the cost of production act only on the 
 value of money by increasing or diminishing its quan- 
 tity (1855) 71 
 
 Sale of leasehold instead of freehold 
 interest in Australian Lands (1856) 73 
 
 ,, Colonial Funds applied to Emigration 
 
 (i857) 74 
 
 Definition of Rent (1858) 76 
 
 Differential in one, versus export Duty, 
 
 on the same article, in another country (1860) ... 77 
 
 At what period does the dominion of the 
 Mother Country over a Colony cease to be profitable ? 
 (1862) 80 
 
 Is it more advantageous to raise Loans 
 for Warlike or other unproductive expenditure from 
 Countrymen or Foreigners ? (1863) 82 
 
 Would a breach of faith be committed 
 
 by adding Gold as a Standard, when the obligations 
 of a State are contracted in a Silver Currency ? (1864) 83 
 
 Should breaches of engagement be punish- 
 
 able as Criminal Offences, and if so, how limited ? 
 
 (1865) ... ... 84 
 
 When is it desirable, independently of 
 
 political emergencies, to negotiate for a Foreign Treaty ? 
 
 (1866) 85 
 
 ,, Measures available by the Government of 
 
 India for the prevention or mitigation of Famines 
 
 (1867) 86
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 423 
 
 PAGE 
 
 MERIVALE (Mr.) Should Friendly Societies have privileges 
 
 not conceded to Trades Unions ? (1868) 88 
 
 The advantages, or otherwise, to this 
 
 country by the possession of India (1870) 91 
 
 Military Expenditure, Is it Financially exhausting to 
 
 European nations ? (R. GIFFEN, 1888) 114 
 
 MILL (Mr. JAS.) Effect on English Labourers by competi- 
 tion of Irish Labourers (1823) 20 
 
 MILL (Mr. J. S.) Effects on wages of a greater expenditure 
 on menial servants, and a smaller on commodities, 
 
 by the rich (1840) 50 
 
 Definition of " Demand " (1841) 51 
 
 ,, Benefit of Trade, how shared between 
 
 two nations (1841) 52 
 
 ,, Power of a country to make another 
 
 country pay a portion of its taxes (1842) 53 
 
 Exportation of British Capital a cause 
 
 of its increase at home (1843) 54 
 
 ,, Is Political Economy a science a priori ? 
 
 (1843) ... 55 
 
 ,, Different rule regulating value of com- 
 
 modities in one country and in those exchanged 
 between two (1844) ... ... ... ... ... 57 
 
 Government direction of private industry 
 
 (1845) ... 57 
 
 If Rent of Mines on the same principles 
 as land (1846) 59 
 
 How prices of agricultural produce are 
 regulated (1846) 59 
 
 ,, Irish Poor Law, proposed in 1847 
 
 (1847) ... 60 
 
 ,, Surplus revenue to pay off a national 
 Debt (1847) ..- l .S" : 61 
 
 If any difference between Bank Notes 
 and other forms of credit (1848) 61 
 
 ,, Association of Workmen in the profits of 
 Industrial Undertakings (1848) 62
 
 424 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 MILL (Mr. J. S.) Equitable Assessment of Income Tax 
 
 (1849) 62 
 
 Desirable changes in our Taxation (1849) 63 
 
 Tendency of Capital to agglomeration or 
 
 dispersion under our social institutions (1850) ... 64 
 
 Formation of hand-loom Weavers into 
 home agricultural colonies (1851) ... 65 
 
 Comparative produce of businesses with 
 
 slow or quick returns (1851) ... ... ... ... 66 
 
 Comparative effect of purchase of com- 
 
 modities, and direct purchase of labour, on wages 
 (1852) ... ... 66 
 
 Conditions of a just Income Tax (1852) 67 
 
 Direct or indirect taxation (1853) ... 67 
 
 Tenant Right in Ireland (1853) 68 
 
 ,, Relief to the present generation by Loans 
 
 instead of Taxation, for war expenditure (1855) ... 72 
 
 ,, Effect of purchase of Commodities on 
 
 employment of labour (1856) ... ... ... ... 73 
 
 Restriction of its discounts by the Bank 
 
 on a drain of gold (1856) ... ... ... ... 73 
 
 Laws of retail prices and profits (1857) 74 
 
 If alteration of standard, justified by a fall 
 
 in the value of gold from recent discoveries ? (1858) ... 75 
 
 ,, The value of Moral Education, and bear- 
 ings of prosperity on Moral excellence Economically 
 considered (1861) ... ... ... ... 79 
 
 Definition of productive and unproductive 
 
 Labour and Consumption (1863) ... ... ... 8r 
 
 ,, Wealth intended by its owner to be applied 
 
 to Reproduction, properly designated as Capital (1863) 82 
 
 Does the high rate of Interest hi America 
 
 indicate a corresponding high rate of profit, and if so, 
 
 the cause ? (1865) 84 
 
 Minerals. If the property of the State, or of the owner of 
 
 the surface under which they lie -(Mr. LEFEVRE, 1873) 94 
 Mines, principles of rent of (Mr. MILL, 1846) ... ... 59 
 
 Mines and railways, nationalisation of 200
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 425 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Minimum Wage and Agriculture ... ... ... ... 176 
 
 Money, How is the difference in value of, in different 
 Countries determined, and how estimated ? (Rev. 
 
 T. R. MALTHUS, 1828) 32 
 
 ,, Can the value of, in any two countries differ 
 more than is expressed by the Exchange ? (Mr. SENIOR, 
 1829) ... 33 
 
 ,, If the Cost of production act only on its value by 
 increasing or diminishing its quantity (Mr. MERIVALE, 
 1855) ... ... ... ... 71 
 
 Relation of, to Rate of Interest (Mr. CAIRNES, 
 
 1865) ... 84 
 
 Money-Market, pressure on, Dec. 1836 (Mr. J. D. HUME, 
 
 1836) 46 
 
 ,, Are good Securities tending to rise in 
 
 value? (WYNNARD HOOPER, 1899) ... 125 
 
 Money Rents, effect of reduction of (Col. TORRENS, 1844) 55 
 Monopoly, Economic arguments in favour of (H. HIGGS, 
 
 1899) 126 
 
 MONTE AGLE (Lord). Poor Laws in Ireland (1833) 41 
 
 ,, Poor Law assessment in Ireland 
 
 (1849) - 63 
 
 Moral Education, the value of, and bearings of prosperity 
 on Moral excellence, economically considered (Mr. 
 
 MILL, 1861) ... ... 79 
 
 MORISON (Sir T.) India and Protection (1912) 169 
 
 MORLEY (Mr.) What are the advantages and disadvantages 
 of Foundations, and in what way, if any, is it desirable 
 
 to limit them ? (1874) 95 
 
 ,, Is an Import Duty by the Indian Govern- 
 
 ment on manufactured goods consistent with sound 
 financial principles ? (1876) ... ... ... ... 98 
 
 ,, Can an attempt by an Industrial class to 
 
 overrule the freedom of action of the Individual, receive 
 the approval of the Economist ? (1879) I02 
 
 MORRISON (Mr.) Economical consequences of universal 
 
 suffrage (1859) 7&
 
 426 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 Mortgage of future crops, prevention of (Mr. MERTVALE, 
 
 1848) 62 
 
 Most-favoured nation clause 163 
 
 Mother Country Benefit to the, by restrictions of the 
 
 Colonial system (Mr. LARPENT, 1821-22) 9, 10, n, 12, 13 
 
 When does the dominion over a Colony 
 
 by the, cease to be profitable ? (Mr. MERIVALE, 1862) 80 
 MOULTON (J. FLETCHER). Incidence of Rates (1890) ... 116 
 Old Age Pensions (1892) ... 118 
 
 Merchandise Marks Act (1894) 121 
 
 Graduated Income Tax (1906) 150 
 
 MUNDELLA (Mr.) On what conditions do the manufacturing 
 predominance of Great Britain depend, and are there 
 any reasons to think that they have been, or may be 
 
 endangered ? (1877) ... 100 
 
 Municipal Trading 145 
 
 MUNRO (J. E. C.) Wages and Economic Rent (1889) ... 115 
 
 Eight Hours' Day (1891) 117 
 
 MURRAY (Sir G. H.) Progression in Taxation (1890) ... 116 
 Incidence of Rates (1891) ... ... 118 
 
 Imperial Customs Tariff (1892) ... 119 
 
 Labour Immigration (1894) 121 
 
 MUSHET (Mr.) The effect of a Bill rendering Gold and 
 
 Silver legal tenders, to any amount (1823) 18 
 
 The advantages to England from use of a 
 
 paper currency (1826) 26,28 
 
 Coinage of Silver at 55. 2d. per oz., legal 
 
 tender being limited to 405. (1827) ... 29 
 
 Would England benefit by adopting the 
 
 French system of Silver in lieu of Gold as a legal 
 tender, leaving gold the money of convention ? (1827) 29 
 
 Exportation of Gold and fall in prices, 
 caused by importation of corn under system of Free 
 Trade (1827) 30 
 
 National Bank The benefit to the Country by the estab- 
 lishment of a, for the issue of Notes (Mr. M. RICARDO, 
 1832) 39
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 427 
 
 PACK 
 
 National Capital Measures conducive to the accumu- 
 lation of (Sir H. Parnell, 1829) 32 
 
 Can it be other than a bad investment of, 
 
 by the construction of a purely commercial railway, 
 unable to yield a profit at the current average rate on 
 
 its cost ? (Mr. THORNTON, 1874) 95 
 
 National Debt The payment off of the, by contribution 
 
 on capital of individuals (Mr. BROWN, 1822) ... 13, 17, 18 
 Measures for extinction of the (1828) ... 31 
 
 Would its extinction, if practicable, be 
 
 desirable ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1830) 34 
 
 Surplus revenue to pay off (Mr. MILL, 1847) 61 
 
 Effect of Free Trade on the burthen of 
 
 (Mr. THORNTON, 1848-50) 62, 64 
 
 ,, Circumstances mitigating the pressure of, 
 
 (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1855) 72 
 
 Interest on, and reduction of, in the United 
 
 States (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1869) 89 
 
 How far true that a nation burdened with, 
 
 should, as a duty, in time of peace, substantially reduce 
 it, either by Sinking Fund, Surplus Revenue, or 
 
 Terminable Annuities ? (Mr. BAXTER, 1873) 95 
 
 Is it desirable to Repay or Reduce it ? 
 
 (H. C. GIBBS, 1891) 118 
 
 National expenditure ... ... ... ... ... ... 137 
 
 guilds ... ... ... 194 
 
 revenue, growth of ... ... ... ... ... 130 
 
 roads 170 
 
 Nationalisation of mines and railways ... ... ... 200 
 
 National Wealth The effect on, by payments to absentees 
 
 (1824) 20 
 
 ,, Marks or signs pointing to an advance 
 
 or decline in (1824) 20 
 
 ,, Elements which should be reckoned in 
 
 any numerical calculation of (Mr. ROGERS, 1864) ... 82 
 Naval War and Trade ... ... ... ... ... ... 170 
 
 Navigation Laws, Effect of the, upon the political and 
 
 Commercial Interests of this Country (Mr. Lyall, 1823) *9
 
 428 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACE 
 
 Navigation Laws, Effect of the, on Shipping and Com- 
 merce of this country, and is their continuance desirable 
 (Mr. LYALL, 183132) ... 37, 38 
 NEWMARCH (Mr.) Distinction between Free Trade and Un- 
 restricted Competition (1853) ... ... 67 
 
 Test of fall in value of Gold from Cali- 
 fornian and Australian supplies (1854) 69 
 
 Principles for legal regulations of Joint 
 
 Stock Banking and Trading Companies (1855) ... 72 
 
 Circumstances mitigating the pressure 
 of the National Debt (1855) 72 
 
 Contraction of Government Loans in 
 
 Stocks bearing Market Rate of Interest (1856) ... 72 
 
 ,, Saving of Capital by Railway facilities 
 
 (1857) - 74 
 
 ,, If the issue of Bank Notes is an exclusive 
 
 State function (1857) 74 
 
 ,, Effects of the Influx of New Gold (1860) 77 
 
 ,, Economic Advantages of Commercial 
 Treaties, if any (1860) ... 77 
 
 Advantages of a Law to Diminish Credit, 
 by denying Legal validity of debts of longer standing 
 than six months (1861) ... ... 78 
 
 Benefit arising to public convenience 
 
 and profit, by amalgamating Railways rather than by 
 encouraging competition (1862) ... ... ... ... 80 
 
 Taxes best adapted to a British Colony 
 (1862) 81 
 
 Practicability of remunerating Em- 
 ployed by pai ticipation in the Profit and Loss Results 
 to the Employer (1867) ... ... 86 
 
 Are those Clauses in the Succession 
 
 Duty Act justified, which limit the Tax to the value 
 of the Life Interest only of the Successor ? (1867) ... 87 
 
 Has the division, in France, of Landed 
 property amongst the descendants of deceased owners, 
 benefited that Country ? (1868) 88 
 
 Plan adopted by the United States for
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 429 
 
 PAGJ? 
 
 providing Interest on, and reduction of, the National 
 
 Debt (1868) 89 
 
 NE'.VMARCH (Mr.) Interference by Government with the 
 
 business of Life Insurance Offices (1870) 91 
 
 ,, After such as the recent War between 
 
 France and Germany, is it true that there is a rapid 
 
 recovery from loss of Wealth ? (1871) 92 
 
 Soundness of the French Commercial 
 Treaty of 1860, and subsequent Treaties on same basis 
 
 (1871) - 92 
 
 ,, Do extensive Industrial and other con- 
 sequences arising from the rapid rise in the price of 
 Coal, afford ground for immediate or prospective im- 
 position of an export duty ? (1873) 94 
 
 How far true, economically, that the 
 Administration of the Government of India by this 
 country is becoming impracticable ? (1874) 96 
 
 ,, Are the inventions and arrangements in 
 Modern States most efficient in the production of 
 wealth, also of necessity conducive to its natural and 
 wholesome distribution ? (1874) 96 
 
 ,, Do the existing relations between Great 
 Britain and Canada benefit, economically, both or 
 either of the two countries ? (1876) 98 
 
 ,, In what departments of Political Econ- 
 omy may it be considered that propositions of universal 
 application have been discovered and established, in 
 which modifications by local and special causes cannot 
 be urged ? (1877) 99 
 
 ,, How far true that Production, under 
 conditions securing freedom and security for the appli- 
 cation of capital and employment of labour, is of itself 
 sufficient to secure the best distribution of the wealth 
 produced to the labourer as well as the capitalist ? 
 (1878) ... 101 
 
 ,, Is it reasonable to believe that the com- 
 
 mercial depression of Europe and America of the last 
 five years justifies the presumption that the next twenty
 
 43 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 or thirty years will produce a considerable decline from 
 the prosperity which, more or less, prevailed since 1850 ? 
 
 (1878) 101 
 
 NEWMARCH (Mr). How would the Legislature be justified 
 in abridging the present uncontrolled discretion of 
 Freeholders in London and elsewhere in fixing the 
 
 conditions of their Leases ? (1880) 104 
 
 NICHOLSON (Prof.) Value of " Money " (1894) 121 
 
 Capital, export of, as affecting em- 
 ployment (1909) 159 
 
 Nine Hours Movement, effect of, if made general (Mr. 
 
 CHADWICK, 1872) 93 
 
 NORMAN (Mr.) Connection between rates of Profit and 
 
 Interest (1822) n 
 
 The best mode of Taxation (1822) n, 12, 14 
 
 Preference to direct rather than indirect 
 
 Taxation (1828) 32 
 
 Are the difficulties opposed to the substitu- 
 
 tion of one single Property Tax, in lieu of all other 
 Taxes, sufficient to render its introduction inexpedient ? 
 (1829) ... 33 
 
 ,, If British prosperity is checked by Tax- 
 ation (1849) 63 
 
 Does Taxation press more heavily in this 
 
 than in other countries ? (1850) 63 
 
 If value of Gold lowered by that produced 
 
 in California and Australia (1857) 75 
 
 NORTHCOTE (Sir STAFFORD). Would England gain or lose 
 more by the protection of private property from capture 
 at Sea in time of War, than by seizure of such property 
 
 from her enemy ? (1863) 81 
 
 Notes, Would the establishment in London of more than 
 one Banking Company for the issue of, on demand, 
 
 benefit the Public ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1829) 33 
 
 The desirability of continuing the regulation 
 preventing a London Banking Company of more 
 than six Partners from issuing (Sir H. PARNELL, 
 1832) 38
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 431 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Notes, Small. Effect on industry by circulation of, of 
 
 Country Bankers (Mr. COULSON, 1830) 35 
 
 Old Age Pensions, Are there any valid Economical 
 
 objections to ? (J. FLETCHER MOULTON, 1892) ... 118 
 ,, Effect on Thrift of, assisted or gra- 
 tuitous ? (C. BOOTH, 1897) 124 
 
 Old-Age Pensions 153 
 
 Open Door 147 
 
 Over Production, Subject to what limitations is it correct 
 to speak of the possibility of, having regard to the 
 existing Economic conditions of Industry ? (Colonel 
 
 CHESNEY, 1880) 104 
 
 OVERSTONE (Lord). The exclusive power for Government 
 to issue paper in lieu of Coin expedient ; if not, the 
 limitations on granting powers to other bodies (1832) 39 
 
 ,, Difference of Market and Mint Price 
 
 of Gold, if a proof of depreciation of Currency (1835) ... 43 
 ,, If prudential Checks on increase of 
 
 Population to be encouraged (1836) 45 
 
 ,, Commandite Partnership (1836) ... 45 
 
 Panama Canal, Effects of, on Trade and Commerce (Lord 
 
 E. FITZMAURICE, 1896) 123 
 
 Paper in lieu of Coin, The exclusive power of this Country 
 to issue, expedient, if not, the limitations on granting 
 powers to other bodies (Mr. LOYD, 1832) 39 
 
 Paper Money, Does, payable on demand in the precious 
 Metals, increase the nominal price of commodities 
 (1827) ... 29 
 
 PARNELL (Sir H.) Measures for retarding increase in the 
 
 population of Ireland (1825) ... ... ... ... 24 
 
 Measures most fitting for improving the 
 
 condition of the people of Ireland (1825) 24 
 
 Might not a proper Currency be secured 
 
 by Banking being left wholly free from all Legislative 
 
 interference ? (1826 27) 27, 28 
 
 ,, The operation of the new Corn Bill on
 
 43 2 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACE 
 
 prices and the general interests of the community 
 (1828) 3I 
 
 PARNELL (Sir H.) Measures most conducive to the accu- 
 mulation of National Capital (1829) 32 
 
 The benefit derived by Great Britain 
 
 by the possession of its Colonies (1829) 33 
 
 Would the substitution of new instead 
 
 of existing Taxes be likely to promote industry, put 
 down smuggling, and provide future War expenses 
 
 without loans (1830) 34 
 
 ,, Existence of distress in Agriculture, 
 
 &c., in the spring of 1830 (1831) 35 
 
 Expediency of continuing the regula- 
 tion preventing a London Banking Company, of more 
 than six Partners, from issuing Notes (1832) 38 
 
 Parochial Settlement, if a condition essentially of slave 
 
 labour (Mr. CHADWICK, 1854) 68 
 
 Parochial Settlements, how should law of, be founded (Mr. 
 
 STEPHEN, 1864) 83 
 
 Partnership, Commandite (Lord OVERSTONE, 1836) ... 45 
 
 expediency of (Mr. TOOKE, 1849) 63 
 
 Partnerships, Modification of law of liability in (Mr. 
 
 COULSON, 1853) 67 
 
 Patent right, justice of (Mr. THORNTON, 1854) 69 
 
 Patents, if in accordance with Economic science (Mr. LOWE, 
 
 1859) 77 
 
 Patriotism and Free Trade 197 
 
 PATTISON (Mr.) Do the Bank Act of 1844 and the Banking 
 System of England, influence the fluctuations in the 
 Rate of Discount ? (1875) 96 
 
 PENNINGTON (Mr.) Would a large Sinking Fund from 
 surplus Revenue raise the value of Currency and depress ' 
 general prices ? (1829) 33 
 
 Distinction between Currency and 
 
 Capital (1829) ... 34 
 
 Competition of Machinery with Manual 
 
 Labour injurious to the Labouring classes ? (1831) ... 36
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 433 
 
 PAGE 
 
 PENNINGTON (Mr.) Advantages of a Free Trade in Corn 
 
 (1832) ... ^ ... 38 
 
 ,, Incidence of Import Duties on Con- 
 
 sumer (1834) ............... 4 1 
 
 ,, Difference between Banks of Circu- 
 
 lation and of Deposit (1835) ............ 43 
 
 Individual Savings, how conducive to 
 
 National Wealth (1838) ............... 47 
 
 How Net to be distinguished from 
 
 Gross Produce of the country (1847) ......... 60 
 
 Personal Property, Charges of Local Administration on 
 
 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1868) ............... 88 
 
 PIGOU (Prof. A. C.) Arbitration in industrial disputes 
 
 (1906) ..................... 150 
 
 ,, Taxing the foreigner (1909) ...... 157 
 
 ,, ,, Laissez-faire in trade and industry 
 
 ,, Minimum Wage and agriculture (1914) 176 
 
 ,, ,, European Exchange position (1920)... 204 
 
 Political Economy, Improvements in the Science of, since 
 publication of Mr. Ricardo's great work, and are the 
 principles first advanced acknowledged to be correct ? 
 (Col. TORRENS, 1831) 35, 36 
 
 ,, The practicability of forming a 
 
 Society on an extended scale for the improvement and 
 diffusion of, and the mode of setting about it (Mr. 
 SENIOR, 1831) .................. 37 
 
 ,, ,, Limits of the Science (1835) ...... 42 
 
 ,, ,, If a Science a priori (Mr. MILL, 1843) ... 55 
 
 ,, ,, Definition of (Mr. SENIOR, 1861) ... 79 
 
 ,, In what departments of, may proposi- 
 
 tions of universal application have been discovered 
 and made, and in which modifications by local and 
 special causes cannot be urged ? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 1877) ... 99 
 
 ,, Club, Would it be proper to adopt the 
 
 definitions as set forth, viz., Wealth, Value, Labour 
 human, Wages, Rise of Wages, Capital and Profit, 
 
 P.E.C. 2E
 
 434 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 to establish a conventional and understood nomen- 
 clature in the Club ? (Col. TORRENS 1828) 30 
 
 Political Economy, Effect of increase of magnitude of 
 States on attitude towards (Col. R. JACKSON, 
 
 1887) 112 
 
 Club, history of 146 
 
 ,, ,, changes since 1821 203 
 
 Pott Tax on Chinese Immigrants to Australia, whether 
 
 defensible (Mr. FAWCETT, 1862) ... ... ... ... 80 
 
 Poor, Compulsory provision for (Mr. CHADWICK, 1859) ... 76 
 Compulsory provision for able-bodied (Mr. SENIOR, 
 
 1834) 41 
 
 Poor and County Rate on Land, does excess of, justify a 
 
 duty on foreign corn ? (1836) ... ... 45 
 
 ,, Law Remedy for its evils (Mr. MACAULAY, 1821-22) 9 
 Bill, New, 1837, question of Out-door Relief 
 
 (Mr. SENIOR, 1837) 46 
 
 ,, ,, Rating, uniform, over the whole Metropolis 
 
 (Mr. HARE, 1870) 91 
 
 Poor Law of 1834 149 
 
 relief, national 164 
 
 Poor Laws, Did the, between 1600 and 1795, increase or 
 
 diminish the population ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1829) ... 33 
 ,, Are the benefits of the present, sufficient to 
 compensate for the evils incident to State Relief of 
 
 the Poor ? (Mr. FOWLER, 1878) ... ... ror 
 
 Settlement (Mr. COWELL, 1834) 4 1 
 
 in Ireland (Lord MONTEAGLE, 1833) ... ... 41 
 
 ( ditto 1849) 63 
 
 ,, ,, ,, proposed in 1847 (Mr. MILL, 1847) 60 
 
 ,, Rates not solely a charge on Lands (Mr. FAWCETT, 
 
 1866) ... 85 
 
 Relief, principle of moderate-sized Parishes in (Mr. 
 
 CHADWICK, 1847) 60 
 
 Should the State bear any expenses of ? (Lord 
 
 E. FITZMAURICE, 1881) 105 
 
 Relief of, the most desirable method of collection and 
 distribution of the Fund for the (Mr. SENIOR, 1832) ... 39
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 435 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Poor Relief, Is English system based on sound Economic 
 
 principles ? (Prof. SIDGWICK, 1894) 120 
 
 Population and Subsistence, tendency of either to more 
 
 rapid increase (Mr. TOOKE, 1835) 43 
 
 Population, Do facts show a non-tendency of, to increase 
 
 beyond the means of subsistence ? (1835) 44 
 
 ,, If present causes of increase of, permanent 
 
 (Mr. TOOKE, 1846) 59 
 
 ,, If prudential checks on increase of, to be 
 
 encouraged (Lord OVERSTONE, 1836) 45 
 
 plagues and epidemics as corrections of (Mr. 
 
 CHADWICK, 1845) 58 
 
 ,, Does it tend to increase faster than Sub- 
 
 sistence ? (Hon. E. F. LEVESON-GOWER, 1883) ... 107 
 
 ,, How far would theories of, be affected by use 
 
 of Classified Statistics rather than of gross totals of 
 
 numbers? (F. HARRISON, 1885) no 
 
 ,, Chief experiences bearing on Malthusian 
 
 doctrine of (E. CHADWICK, 1888) 114 
 
 ,, Is further increase in British Isles desirable in 
 
 interests of the State ? (F. W. BUXTON, 1890) ... 116 
 
 Population, growth of 134 
 
 PORTER (Mr.) If less encouragement to its industry from 
 
 the foreign than the home trade of a country (1850) ... 65 
 
 Post, distribution of small parcels by, if at variance with 
 
 Political Economy (Sir ROWLAND HILL, 1859) ... 76 
 
 Post-War commercial relations ... ... ... ... 187 
 
 economic policy 183 
 
 Precious Metals, Best mode of determining value of, in 
 
 different countries (1824) 22 
 
 ,, Should a remedy be applied by Govern- 
 
 ment to the evils arising from the dislocation of prices 
 of the, to regard the Metropolitan position of England 
 as the Political Centre of the British Empire, or the 
 Commercial centre of the World ? (Mr. GRENFELL, 
 
 1879) 102 
 
 ,, Is the supply of the, over current de- 
 
 mands, causing a rise in prices more favourable than
 
 436 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 a supply just sufficient to maintain an equilibrium of 
 prices, or which is so far deficient as to cause a pro- 
 longed fall ? (Mr. GIFFEN, 1879) 102 
 
 Precious Metals, Value of, depending on cost of pro- 
 duction (Mr. GRENFELL, 1882) 106 
 
 PREVOST (Mr. A.) Limitation by Law to number of 
 
 Hackney Coaches or fixed rates (1826) 26 
 
 (J. L.) What new Taxes to be imposed if an 
 
 increase of the public income is necessary ? (1840) ... 50 
 
 Prices, the practical effect of measuring, and rate of 
 Profit on a medium subject to variation in its relation 
 
 to labour (Rev. T. R. MALTHUS, 1825) 25 
 
 do they depend on the quantity of currency ? (Mr. 
 
 GRAHAM, 1840) 50 
 
 how affected by the new Gold Mines ? (Mr. LESLIE, 
 
 1873) - 94 
 
 of Provision and labour, connection between (Mr. 
 
 SENIOR, 1840-1859) 50, 77 
 
 ,, low, of exportable commodities (Rev. T. R. 
 
 MALTHUS, 1834) 4 1 
 
 and Profits, retail, laws of (Mr. MILL, 1857) ... 74 
 
 Price and Distribution 194 
 
 Prices, rise of ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 167 
 
 Primogeniture, if law of, favourable to accumulation of 
 
 wealth (Mr. COULSON, 1845) 58 
 
 Private Property, Basis of Compensation in case of, taken 
 
 for Public purposes (J. MACDONELL, 1890) ... ... 117 
 
 Produce of the Country, how net to be distinguished from 
 
 gross (Mr. PENNINGTON, 1847) 60 
 
 ,, agricultural, how prices of, regu- 
 lated (Mr. MILL, 1846) 59 
 
 Production, effect of increased price of, in foreign countries, 
 
 on prices in this country (Col. TORRENS, 1841) ... 52 
 
 ,, term for agent of, related to Profit, as Labour 
 
 to Wages (1837) 4^ 
 
 How far true, that, under conditions securing 
 
 freedom and security for the application of Capital 
 and employment of Labour, are sufficient to secure
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 437 
 
 PAGE 
 
 the best distribution of the wealth produced to the 
 
 Labourer as well as the Capitalist ? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 
 1878) 101 
 
 Productive Purposes, effect of entire devotion of private 
 
 revenues to (Mr. SENIOR, 1835) 42 
 
 Professional Callings, exclusive privileges in (Mr. ROGERS, 
 
 1862) 80 
 
 Profit, The meaning of the term (Col. TORRENS, 1824) ... 22 
 ,, Rate of Interest correct index to rate of (Mr. 
 
 TOOKE, 1825) 25 
 
 The diminished Rate since the Peace, and the 
 
 cause of such diminution (Mr. LYALL, 1830) 35 
 
 Profit and Interest, Connection between Rates of (Mr. 
 
 NORMAN, 1822) n 
 
 Profits, doctrine of the equality of rate of (Mr. LESLIE, 
 
 1869) 9 
 
 ,, of Industrial Undertakings, association of workmen 
 
 in (Mr. MILL, 1848) 62 
 
 ,, dependence of, on the fact of Commodities 
 being exchanged for others before being consumed 
 (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1840) 51 
 
 Profit 167 
 
 Profit-Sharing 176 
 
 Property, Succession to, the, not regulated by other than 
 the custom of Primogeniture, is the custom good or 
 otherwise ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1825) 24 
 
 Property Tax, Are the difficulties opposed to the sub- 
 stitution of one single tax in lieu of all other taxes, 
 sufficient to render its introduction inexpedient ? 
 (Mr. NORMAN, 1829) 33 
 
 Protection, whether under any circumstances justifiable by 
 
 a Community (Mr. ROGERS, 1865) ... ... ... 84 
 
 Protection and Free Trade 169 
 
 India ... ... ... ... ... ... 197 
 
 Protective Import Duties, As to development of Manufac- 
 turing Industries in new countries by (R. GIFFEN, 
 1893) 120 
 
 Public expenditure and economic principle ... ... ... 152
 
 438 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 RAE (W. FRASER). Remuneration of Literature (1886) ... in 
 Imperial Customs Union (1888) ... 115 
 
 Colonial Currency (1894) 121 
 
 Railways, should they be a monopoly for a fixed number 
 
 of years (1836) 45 
 
 how management of, most conducive to national 
 
 wealth (Mr. C. BULLER, 1842) 53 
 
 saving of Capital by facilities of (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 
 1857) - 74 
 
 ,, advantages of amalgamation of Lines over 
 competition (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1862) 80 
 
 principles applicable to the initiation, con- 
 
 struction, and working of (Mr. CHAD WICK, 1865) ... 83 
 
 Government relief to, in temporary or other 
 embarrassments (Mr. WALEY, 1867) 87 
 
 Indiscriminate authorisation of proposed Lines 
 (Mr. WATKIN, 1868) 88 
 
 Is any great reform necessary and practicable 
 in the administration of, in the United Kingdom ? 
 (Mr. JEVONS, 1875) 97 
 
 The practicability or expediency of compelling 
 Railway Companies to treat all customers equally, 
 without regard to competition ; and if so, by what 
 Standard are the charges to be regulated ? (Mr. 
 
 FARRER, 1882) 107 
 
 London passenger traffic 155 
 
 securities, value of 134 
 
 United States and State ownership 165 
 
 War, and State ownership 180 
 
 and Mines, nationalisation ... ... ... 200 
 
 RALEIGH (Sir T.) Public expenditure and economic prin- 
 ciple (1907) 152 
 
 Rate of Profit, Different meaning of, as applied to par- 
 ticular portions of Capital, and when applied generally 
 
 in a national point of view (Mr. TOOKE, 1825) 25 
 
 Rates, Can Legislation determine incidence of ? (J. F. 
 
 MOULTON, 1890) 116
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 439 
 
 FACE 
 
 Rates, Incidence of. Is any change desirable ? (G. H. 
 
 MURRAY, 1891) 118 
 
 Rating of urban land ... ... ... ... ... ... 148 
 
 Raw Material, Is the exportation of, possessed exclu- 
 sively by this Country, disadvantageous ? (Lord 
 ALTHORP, 1825) 23 
 
 Real Estate, Should owners have further, and what 
 limiting powers to settle it, not also applicable to 
 the settlement of Personal Estate ? (Mr. FOWLER, 
 
 1873) 94 
 
 REEVES (Hon. W. P.) Invalidity Pensions (1909) ... 158 
 
 ,, Compulsory arbitration in industry 
 
 (1912) 168 
 
 Rent, A constituent part of price (1823) ... ... ... 19 
 
 ,, When no, is paid, is the whole produce divided 
 between wages and profit ? (Col. TORRENS, 1824) ... 22 
 
 definition of (Mr. SENIOR, 1837) 47 
 
 (Mr. MERIVALE, 1858) 76 
 
 artificial character of Ricardo's theory of (Mr. 
 THORNTON, 1851) 65 
 
 if to be treated as a separate source of revenue 
 (Archbishop WHATELY, 1843) 55 
 
 doctrine of increase of, by different fertility of soils 
 (Mr. ROGERS, 1869) 90 
 
 increment of, proposed appropriation to use of the 
 State (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1872) 92 
 
 What relation does the Ricardian theory of, in 
 England and Scotland, bear to the actual economic 
 facts ? (Mr. BALFOUR, 1882) 106 
 
 of Land, To what extent, and for how long, would 
 the, in money and commodities, be affected by a free 
 
 trade in Corn ? (Mr. SENIOR, 1826) 27 
 
 Rents and Profits, how affected by Tithes ? (Mr. WAR- 
 BURTON, 1822 23) 14, 18 
 
 Revenues, Private, effect of their entire devotion to pro- 
 ductive purposes (Mr. SENIOR, 1835) 42 
 
 RICARDO (Mr. D.) Demand for Labour diminished by 
 
 Machinery (1821) 7, 8, 10, II
 
 44 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 RICARDO (Mr. M.) The benefit to the Country by the 
 establishment of a National Bank for the issue of 
 
 Notes (1832) 39 
 
 his theory of rent, artificial character 
 
 of (Mr. THORNTON, 1851) 65 
 
 Ricardo's additions to the science of Political Economy 
 
 (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1838) 48 
 
 Riches, Can there be an increase of, without an increase 
 
 of Value ? (Mr. SENIOR, 1823) 20 
 
 RIDLEY (Lord). Imperial preference and tax on corn (1907) 152 
 ,, Merchants' Petition and present policy 
 
 (1908) 156 
 
 Roads, national ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 170 
 
 ROGERS (Mr.) Definition of the word Tax (1861) 79 
 
 Is an exclusive privilege in certain Profes- 
 
 sional callings advantageous or otherwise ? (1862) ... 80 
 
 How should numerical calculations of 
 National Wealth be reckoned ? (1864) 82 
 
 Are there any circumstances in a Com- 
 
 munity's history justifying Protection ? (1865) ... 84 
 
 Can the just limits be defined between 
 laissez faire and defensible interference with Industry 
 or pursuit ? (1865) 85 
 
 Different fertility of soils accounting for 
 increase of Rents (1869) 90 
 
 Can it be discovered how direct payment 
 of Local Taxes might be distributed between Ground 
 Landlord and Occupier or Lessee on economical prin- 
 ciples ? (1875) ... 97 
 
 Is it true that such freedom of contract 
 exists between owner and occupier of lands, &c., to 
 satisfy the conditions of Free Exchange, and how far 
 are its actions illustrated by the incidence of Local 
 Taxation? (1877) roo 
 
 SAMUEL (Sir H.) Women and Men, equal pay (1918) ... 193 
 ,, Levy on war fortunes (1919) ... ... 199 
 
 SAMUELSON (Sir B.) Free Trade and Taxation (1901) ... 134
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 441 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Savings, individual, how conducive to national wealth ? 
 
 (Mr. PENNINGTON, 1838) 47 
 
 SCHUSTER (Sir F.) Gold reserves (1907) 151 
 
 Death Duties (1909) 159 
 
 ,, ,, State aid to industry (1917) 188 
 
 SENIOR (Mr.) Can there be an increase of Riches without 
 
 an increase of Value ? (1823) 20 
 
 ,, The most convenient definition of Capital 
 
 (1826) ... 26 
 
 ,, The least productive Gold or Silver Mine 
 
 that can be worked (1826 27) 26,28 
 
 ,, To what extent, and for how long, would 
 
 the Rent of Land in money and commodities be 
 
 affected by a free trade in Corn ? (1826) 27 
 
 ,, Can the value of money in any two countries 
 
 differ more than is expressed by the Exchange (1829) 33 
 ,, Remission of Taxation causing an immediate 
 
 fall of wages (1831) 36 
 
 ,, The practicability of forming a Society on 
 
 an extended scale for the improvement and diffusion 
 
 of Political Economy, and the mode of setting about 
 
 it (1831) . .- , 37 
 
 ,, If the existing Corn Laws are altered, and 
 
 a duty imposed on corn, should it increase Revenue 
 
 or release burden on Agriculture ? (1832) 38 
 
 ,, The most desirable method of collection 
 
 and distribution of the Funds for the Relief of the 
 
 Poor (1832) 39 
 
 ,, The difference as to Land Rent, population, 
 
 and prices of Raw Material and Manufacture of two 
 Countries, one subject to Tithes and the other Free 
 
 (1833) ... 40 
 ,, Compulsory provision for able-bodied Poor 
 
 (1834) ... 41 
 Effect of entire devotion of private revenue 
 
 to productive purposes (1835) 42 
 
 ,, How absenteeism of Landed Proprietors is 
 detrimental (1836) ... 44
 
 442 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 SENIOR (Mr.) Ought the New Poor Law to authorise Out- 
 door Relief ? (1837) 46 
 
 Effects of Factory Regulation Act (1837)... 46 
 
 Independent increase of value in articles 
 
 during lapse of time (1837) 47 
 
 Definition of Rent (1837) 47 
 
 Expediency of a Silver Currency, or a double 
 
 Currency of Silver and Gold (1838) 48 
 
 ,, Natural limit to accumulation of Capital 
 
 (1838) ... 48 
 
 Most advantageous mode of defraying 
 
 expenses of a Church Establishment in new Colonies 
 
 (1839) - -49 
 ,, Effects of observance of a seventh day on 
 
 wealth (1839, l8 58) 49 75 
 
 Connection between prices of Provisions and 
 
 of Labour (1840) 50 
 
 If principle on which value of Gold and 
 
 Silver depends, is different from that of other metals 
 
 (1841) ... 51 
 Tax on Property, Income, or Expenditure 
 
 (1842) ... 53 
 Effect of a Duty on raw produce in raising 
 
 prices (1843) ... 54 
 
 Effect of Taxation on commodities in raising 
 
 wages (1845) ... 57 
 
 ,, Expenditure on wages and on commodities 
 
 (1845) -. 58 
 
 Tenant right in Ireland (1848) 62 
 
 Government compulsion of accumulation by 
 
 its subjects (1854) 69 
 
 Connection of price of Provisions and of 
 
 Labour (1859) 77 
 
 Definition of Political Economy (1861) ... 79 
 
 Settlement of Property, limitations to be applied on (Mr. 
 
 THRING, 1861) 79 
 
 Settlements, Poor Law (Mr. COWELL, 1834) 41
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 443 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Settlements of Property, effects on Wealth of further restrain- 
 ing (Mr. COULSON), 1858) 75 
 
 Seventh Day, effects of observance of, on Wealth (Mr. 
 
 SENIOR, 1839, l8 5 8 ) 75 
 
 SIDGWICK (Prof. H.) State Eleemosynary action (1884) ... 109 
 
 ,, ,, Equality in Taxation (1886) ... in 
 
 Free Trade (1887) 113 
 
 Poor Relief (1894) 120 
 
 SIDGWICK (W. C.) Wages and Capital (1887) 113 
 
 Labour Combinations (1891) 118 
 
 ,, ,, Minimum Wages (1892) 119 
 
 Do Colonies pay ? (1896) 123 
 
 ,, Taxation of Tobacco and Alcohol 
 
 (1897) . 124 
 
 Silver, coinage of, at 55. 2d. per oz., legal tender being 
 
 limited to 405. (Mr. MUSHET, 1827) 29 
 
 ,, value of, if it depends on different principles from 
 
 other metals (Mr. SENIOR, 1841) 51 
 
 ,, ,, effects of recent supplies on (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1850) ... 64 
 
 ,, test of alteration in (Mr. TOOKE, 1850) ... 64 
 
 SIMPSON (Mr.) The raw produce of Scotland being freely 
 admitted into the English market, are Tithes a Tax 
 on the Rents or Land, or do they fall on the consumer ? 
 
 (1824) 22 
 
 ,, The difference, if any, between the Credit 
 
 Balances of the London Bankers and the Circulating 
 
 Notes of Country Bankers (1826) 26 
 
 Sinking Fund, Would a large, from surplus revenue, raise 
 the value of Currency, and depress general prices ? 
 
 (Mr. PENNINGTON, 1829) 33 
 
 ,, Establishment of one of a fixed amount 
 
 (Mr. COULSON, 1856) 73 
 
 of Five Millions, policy of (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1835) 43 
 
 SMITH (Sir H. L.) Trade Cycles (1898) 125 
 
 ,, ,, Commercial treaties (1901) ... 132 
 
 Smith's (Adam) proposition, " Capital in foreign trade only
 
 444 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 half as encouraging to the industry of this country as 
 that in the Home Trade " (Mr. MERIVALE, 1839) 49 
 
 Smith (Adam], his opinion that, " dexterity of the work- 
 man, in the division of labour, is acquired at the 
 expense of his intellectual, social, and martial virtues " 
 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1841) 52 
 
 Smuggling, Would a repression of, by reduction of Taxes, 
 diminish the Revenue of the Country ? (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 
 
 i833) 40 
 
 Social Condition, adherence to Political Economy in dealing 
 
 with (Mr. WILKINSON, 1859) ?6 
 
 Socialistic opinion, growth of ... ... ... ... ... 165 
 
 Social reforms, effect of 166 
 
 South African colonies, condition of 147 
 
 Specie Circular of American Government, in 1836 (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1840) 50 
 
 SPRING-RICE (D.) Currency and reconstruction (1919) ... 198 
 ,, (S. E.) Individual payments for State 
 
 services (1898) 125 
 
 Is England or Scotland more con- 
 veniently sized to govern ? (1900) 131 
 
 Stability of Nations, Does the observance of the law 
 relative to the production and consumption of Wealth 
 
 affect the ? (Mr. COWELL, 1862) 79 
 
 STAMP (Sir J.) Taxation and ability to pay (1919) ... 198 
 Standard, alteration of, for fall in value of Gold from recent 
 
 discoveries (Mr. MILL, 1858) 75 
 
 ,, double, of Gold and Silver, objections to (Sir W. 
 
 CLAY, 1860) 78 
 
 Standing Armies, Whether standing armies are the most 
 
 economical form of Military force (Mr. CHADWICK, 1871) 91 
 State, Under what conditions should Borrowers be pro- 
 tected by ? (Sir W. LEE WARNER, 1898) 125 
 
 Ought State to require payment from individual 
 Citizens for Services rendered directly to them ? 
 
 (S. E. SPRING-RICE, 1898) 125 
 
 State aid to industry 188 
 
 State Interference, Limits of, in Economic matters (Hon. 
 
 E. HUBBARD, 1895) 123
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 445 
 
 PACE 
 
 Statistical Tables, limitation of their use (1834) 42 
 
 STEBBING (Mr.) Have the prophecies of the progress of 
 Free Trade, made at the time of the Repeal of the 
 Corn Laws, been falsified, or their fulfilment indefin- 
 itely postponed ? (1882) 106 
 
 Manufacturing Pre-eminence and Pros- 
 perity (1895) 122 
 
 Voluntary contribution to public objects 
 (1900) 129 
 
 STEPHEN (Mr. FITZJAMES). How should the law of Paro- 
 chial Settlement be founded ? (1864) 83 
 
 STEPNEY (Bishop of). Unemployed problem in London 
 
 (1905) ... 145 
 
 STRACHEY (J. ST. LOE). Local Taxation (1896) 123 
 
 ,, ,, Industry and Workmen (1897) ... 124 
 ,, ,, Workmen's contribution to re- 
 venue (1901) 133 
 
 Strikes, arbitration between Master and Men during (Mr. 
 
 BAGEHOT, 1871) 92 
 
 ,, Are those Economists approving of, in some 
 degree responsible for the disastrous strikes now recur- 
 ring ? (Mr. JEVONS, 1878) 100 
 
 Subsistence, Has Population a non-tendency to increase 
 
 beyond the means of ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1835) 44 
 
 Succession Duty. Limitation of the Tax on Real Estate 
 to the value of the Life Interest of the Successor (Mr. 
 NEWMARCH, 1867) 87 
 
 Suez Canal, How far beneficial to world's Trade and 
 Trade and Shipping of the United Kingdom ? 
 (R. GIFFEN, 1884) 109 
 
 Supply and Demand, meaning of (Mr. THORNTON, 1866) ... 86 
 
 Surplus, Under existing modes of raising the Revenue, is 
 it better, economically, to apply a surplus in reducing 
 Taxation, or in paying off Debt ? (Sir WM. HARCOURT, 
 1876) 98 
 
 Tariff, American. (Rev. T. R. MALTHUS, 1834) 4 1 
 
 ideal British 156
 
 446 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Tariff, policy of United States and Germany ... ... ... 162 
 
 reform and India 158 
 
 Tax, The effects of a, upon Farmers' Profits (1824) ... 21 
 Definition of the word (Mr. ROGERS, 1861) 79 
 
 Taxation, The effect of, on prices in a country having no 
 
 Foreign Trade (Mr. TOOKE, 1821 22) 9, n, 14 
 
 The best mode of (Mr. NORMAN, 1822) ... n, 12, 14 
 The effect upon Profits on Capital by a diminu- 
 tion of (Mr. TOOKE, 1828) 31 
 
 ,, Should not direct, be preferred to indirect ? (Mr. 
 
 NORMAN, 1828) 32 
 
 Would a remission of, occasion an immediate 
 
 fall in Wages ? (Mr. SENIOR, 1831) 36 
 
 How fixed, when Interest on perpetual Debt 
 forms a large portion of a country's expenditure (Mr. 
 
 WALEY, 1866) 86 
 
 direct and indirect, existing proportion between, 
 
 desirable (Sir Louis MALLET, 1872) 93 
 
 local, whether adequate to the demands upon 
 
 it (Lord FREDERICK CAVENDISH, 1869) 89 
 
 indirect and direct (Sir G. LARPENT, 1845) ... 57 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1853) 67 
 
 if British prosperity checked by (Mr. NORMAN, 
 1849) 63 
 
 desirable changes in our (Mr. MILL, 1849) ... 63 
 does it press more heavily in this, than in other 
 
 countries ? (Mr. NORMAN, 1850) 63 
 
 not disproportionately heavy on the poor (Mr. 
 
 THORNTON, 1851) 65 
 
 on Commodities, effect in raising wages (Mr. 
 
 SENIOR, 1845) 57 
 
 What is precise interpretation of rule of Equality 
 
 of? (H. SIDGWICK, 1886) in 
 
 In what circumstances, if any, Progression in, 
 Economically justifiable and expedient ? (G. H. 
 
 MURRAY, 1890) 116 
 
 Principles of Taxation of Tobacco and Alcohol 
 (W. C. SIDGWICK, 1897) 124
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 447 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Taxation, What are right principles of, with regard to 
 Nationality, Residence of Person, and Situation of 
 
 Property? (J. WESTLAKE, 1899) 126 
 
 Taxation and ability to pay ... ... ... ... ... 198 
 
 of working man ... ... ... ... ... 133 
 
 ,, of site values 136 
 
 ,, and Free Trade ... ... ... ... ... 134 
 
 ,, proportion between direct and indirect 136 
 
 ,, of foreign wheat 139,152 
 
 ,, of the foreigner ... ... ... ... ... 157 
 
 for revenue only ... ... ... ... ... 149 
 
 Taxes, are the existing, more, or less, productive of 
 
 Revenue than they were in 1827 ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1828) 31 
 
 ,, the effect on general prices by, on Foreign com- 
 modities, excepting the Precious metals (Mr. COULSON, 
 1829) 32 
 
 ,, would the substitution of new, instead of existing, 
 be likely to promote Industry, put down Smuggling, 
 and provide future War expenses without loans ? 
 (Sir H. PARNELL, 1830) 34 
 
 ,, admitting indirect, necessary, what description of 
 articles form the least objectionable for Taxation ? 
 (Mr. TOOKE, 1831) 36 
 
 ,, what new, to be imposed, if an increase of the 
 public income necessary ? (Mr. PREVOST, 1840) ... 50 
 
 power of a country to make another country pay a 
 portion of its (Mr. MILL, 1842) 53 
 
 ,, exercise of ditto, by levying duties on exports and 
 imports (Mr. TOOKE, 1842) 53 
 
 ,, affecting the Labouring Classes (Mr. MACKENZIE, 
 1852) 67 
 
 ,, best adapted to a British Colony (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 
 1862) 81 
 
 Taxes, Local, Can an economical principle be discovered by 
 which the direct payment of, might be distributed 
 between Ground Landlord and Occupier or Lessee ? 
 
 (Mr. ROGERS, 1875) 97 
 
 Tax on Property, income or expenditure (Mr. SENIOR, 1842) 53
 
 448 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACE 
 
 Telegraphs, Was the purchase by the Government of the 
 Inland, and would the purchase of the Ocean, be in 
 contravention of sound principles of Political Economy ? 
 
 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1873) 95 
 
 Telephone Companies, Statutory powers to enable them to 
 conduct their business with greatest advantage to com- 
 munity (RAYNSFORD JACKSON, 1892) 118 
 
 Tenant, payment by, of fine to predecessor on entering Farm 
 
 (Earl FORTESCUE, 1881) 105 
 
 Tenant Right, If an allowance of, is proved injurious to 
 property, what is the weight of the objection ? (Mr. 
 
 COURTNEY, 1875) 97 
 
 in Ireland (Mr. SENIOR, 1848) 62 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1853) 68 
 
 (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1867) 87 
 
 of Ulster (Mr. THORNTON, 1854) 69 
 
 (Mr. BAGEHOT, 1870) 90 
 
 Tendency to increase of population or subsistence (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1835) -. 43 
 THOMPSON (Mr.) The desirability of reducing the Standard, 
 the cost of production of Gold and Silver not having 
 increased relatively to that of other commodities (1830) 34 
 THORNTON (Mr.) Allotment system (1848) 61 
 
 Effect of Free Trade on the burthen of the 
 National Debt (1848 50) 62, 64 
 
 Establishment of peasant proprietors on 
 waste lands of Ireland (1849) 62 
 
 Foundation and limits of property in 
 
 Land (1849) 63 
 
 Taxation not disproportionately heavy on 
 the poor (1851) 65 
 
 Artificial character of Ricardo's theory of 
 rent (1851) 65 
 
 ,, If loans for public expenditure ever more 
 advantageous than Taxation (1852) 66 
 
 Definition of Capital (1853) 68 
 
 Justice of Copyright and Patent right 
 (1854) 69
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 449 
 
 PACE 
 
 THORNTON (Mr.) Tenant right of Ulster (1854) 69 
 
 An uniform Income Tax at variance with 
 just principles of Taxation (1862) ... ... ... 80 
 
 The effect of total abolition of Copyright 
 
 on Literary produce and producers (1864) 83 
 
 The meaning of Supply and Demand 
 
 (1866) 86 
 
 Can it be other than a bad investment of 
 
 part of the National Capital, by constructing a purely 
 commercial Railway unable to yield a profit at the 
 
 current average rate on its cost ? (1874) 95 
 
 In politico-economical discussions, hi 
 
 what sense should the word Wealth be understood ? 
 (1875) ... ... 97 
 
 Does Economic law exist ; if so, how is it 
 definable, and what specimens can be adduced ? (1878) 101 
 
 Is it possible, and if so, desirable to main- 
 tain Bimetallism in India, regardless of monetary 
 
 arrangements of any other country ? (1879) 103 
 
 Thrift, On what principle to be encouraged by the State ? 
 
 (J. D. MARTIN, 1896) 123 
 
 THRING (Mr.) Legitimate limitations to be applied on 
 
 Settlement of property (1861) 79 
 
 Tithes, The Raw produce of Scotland being freely admitted 
 into the English Market, are, a Tax on the Rents on 
 Land, or do they fall on the consumer (Mr. SIMPSON, 
 
 1824) 22 
 
 ,, Production of Corn, and its price to the consumer, 
 
 affected by (Mr. CAZENOVE, 1830) 34 
 
 The difference as to Land Rent, population, and 
 prices of Raw Material and Manufacture, of two 
 Countries, one subject to, the other free (Mr. SENIOR, 
 
 1833) 40 
 
 ,, If they justify a duty on foreign Corn (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1834) 42 
 
 TOOKE (Mr.) The effect of Taxation on Prices in a Country 
 
 having no Foreign Trade (1821 22) 9, n, 14 
 
 Points and features of improvement in the 
 
 P.E.C. 2 F
 
 45 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACK 
 
 Science of Political Economy, since the publication of 
 
 Smith's Wealth of Nations (1822) 17 
 
 TOOKE (Mr.) Can the Wealth of the State derive any 
 
 advantage by restrictions on Importation ? (1823) ... 19 
 The tests of the value of Currency remaining 
 
 constant, having regard to variation in prices and 
 
 Foreign Exchanges (1824) 21 
 
 Disadvantages, if any, attending partnerships 
 
 in Joint Stock Companies (1825) 23 
 
 Allowance of Foreign Labourers with native 
 
 competition with or without restrictions (1825) ... 23 
 ,, Would the influx of Foreign Labourers tend 
 
 to increase the aggregate produce of the Country ? 
 
 (1825) ... 23 
 
 ,, The Rate of Interest a correct index of the 
 
 Rate of Profit (1825) 25 
 
 Into what component parts may the return 
 
 to Capital be divided ? (1825) 25 
 
 ,, Different meaning of Rate of Profit, as 
 
 applied to particular portions of Capital, and when 
 applied generally in a national point of view (1825) ... 25 
 The effect of Mr. Ricardo's proposal for 
 
 exclusive Paper Currency, as against the present system 
 
 under Mr. Peel's Bill (1826) 26 
 
 The difference, in its effect on General Prices, 
 
 of a Tax on Wages from an ad valorem Tax on all 
 
 commodities (1826) 28 
 
 ,, Would a free importation of Corn lower the 
 
 price of other commodities ? (1827) 28 
 
 ,, Are the existing Taxes, more or less, pro- 
 
 ductive of Revenue than they were in 1827 ? 
 
 (1828) 31 
 
 Effect of Taxation on Profits (1828) ... 31 
 
 Would the extinction of the National Debt, 
 
 were it practicable, be desirable ? (1830) 34 
 
 ,, The abolition of the Truck system by Law 
 
 (1831) ... ... ... 3& 
 
 Admitting indirect Taxes to be necessary,
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 451 
 
 PACK 
 
 what description of articles form the least objectionable 
 
 for Taxation (1831) 36 
 
 TOOKE (Mr.) Exceptions, if any, to the benefits of Free 
 
 Trade (1831) ... 37 
 
 Have Wages fallen in money value in pro- 
 
 portion to the money price of commodities, and 
 if not, how is the difference to be accounted for ? 
 (1832) ... ... 38,41 
 
 Children employed in Factories (1833) ... 39 
 
 If Tithes justify duty on foreign Corn (1834) 4 2 
 
 ,, " Tendency " of population or subsistence to 
 
 more rapid increase (1835) 43 
 
 ,, Policy of a Sinking Fund of Five Millions 
 
 (i835) - 43 
 
 ,, Probable interference of Foreign Competition 
 
 with our manufacturing industry (1839) 4& 
 
 Specie Circular of the American Government 
 
 in 1836 (1840) 50 
 
 Exercise of power of Taxation on an inde- 
 
 pendent country, by levying duties (1842) ... ... 53 
 
 ,, Comparative evils of alterations in the value 
 
 of the standard of the Currency (1844) 56 
 
 ,, Government Corn-Law Scheme of 1846 (1846) 58 
 
 ,, If present causes of increase of population 
 
 permanent (1846) ... ... ... ... ... ... 59 
 
 , , Expediency of partnerships ' ' en Commandite ' ' 
 
 (1849) ... 63 
 
 ,, Effects of recent supplies of Gold and Silver 
 
 on their proportionate value (1850) 64 
 
 ,, Test of an alteration in the value of Gold or 
 
 Silver, and its effects on property (1850) 64 
 
 If diminution in relative value of Gold justify 
 
 an alteration of the standard (1851) 66 
 
 Tooke's (Mr.) Plan for regulating the 'circulation (Mr. 
 
 McCuLLocH, 1848) 61 
 
 TORRENS (Col.) The quantity of money being constant, 
 would a general Tax on commodities raise their prices ? 
 (1821) ... 5
 
 45 2 Political Economy Club 
 
 , PAGE 
 
 TORRENS (Col.) How is the exchangeable value of com- 
 modities determined ? (1823) ... 19 
 
 Does the value of Wages determine the 
 
 rate of Profit (1823) 19 
 
 No Rent being paid, is the whole produce 
 
 divided between Wages and Profit ? (1824) ... ... 22 
 
 The meaning of the term Profit (1824) ... 22 
 
 The meaning of the term Wages (1824) ... 22 
 
 Are wages a portion of Capital ? (1825) ... 23 
 
 Proposed definitions in order to establish 
 
 a conventional and understood nomenclature in the 
 
 Political Economy Club (1828) ... ... 30 
 
 Circumstances most conducive to the 
 
 rapid success of a Colony (1829) 32 
 
 The effect of allowing two metals to be 
 
 legal tender to any extent (1830) ... 34 
 
 The causes of present distress amongst 
 
 agricultural labourers, and what measures would 
 
 remedy the evil (1831) 35 
 
 Improvements in the science of Political 
 
 Economy since publication of Ricardo's great work, 
 and are the principles first advanced acknowledged to 
 
 be correct ? (1831) 35,36 
 
 Effect of diminution in price of Foreign 
 Wine, &c., in increased employment of labour (1835) 44 
 If practicable for the Bank to have fixed 
 issues on Securities and fluctuating on Bullion, while 
 Country Banks issued without reference to the ex- 
 changes (1841) 51 
 
 Effect on prices of an increase of price of 
 
 production in foreign countries, &c. (1841) ... ... 51 
 
 Effect of reduction of duties on foreign 
 
 imports, without equivalent reductions on British 
 in foreign ports (1842) ... ... ... ... ... 52 
 
 ,, If the regulation of the paper portion of 
 our circulating medium is a public function (1844) ... 56 
 ,, Effect of reduction of Corn and of Money 
 Rents (1844) ... 55
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 453 
 
 PAGI: 
 
 TORRENS (Col.) If effect of opening the ports to foreign 
 
 grain would be at first a diminution of imports (1846) 58 
 TORRENS (Mr. R. R.) Modification of the Wakefield prin- 
 ciple in the disposal of waste lands in Australia (1870) 90 
 
 Trade, Causes of the present depression of (1829) 33 
 
 ,, Principle of the benefit of, between two nations 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1841) 52 
 
 If foreign, gives less encouragement to industry 
 
 than home (Mr. PORTER, 1850) 65 
 
 ,, Between Great Britain and United States, de- 
 rangement of Credit in, 1837 (Mr. McCuLLOCH, 1837) 47 
 ,, Prohibition of Contracts in restraint of (Mr. 
 
 WALEY, 1869) 90 
 
 Does the present stagnation of, present features 
 similar to those of periodical commercial depressions ? 
 
 (Mr. GRENFELL, 1877) roo 
 
 Societies, Co-operative, to what extent sound (Mr. 
 
 FAWCETT, 1863) 81 
 
 Trade cycles ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 173 
 
 policy and Merchants' Petition 156 
 
 What evidence of existence of Cycles of Trade 
 
 in modern industry ? (H. LLEWELLYN SMITH, 1898) 125 
 Trades and Industries, Private, To what extent is Govern- 
 ment Inspection of, a departure from sound economic 
 
 principles ? (Mr. CHADWICK, 1879) 102 
 
 Trade Unions, Has influence of, on Wages and Hours of 
 Labour been affected by recent social and Economic 
 
 changes ? (Prof. MARSHALL, 1889) 116 
 
 ,, How far compulsion by, or by social 
 
 ostracism, justifiable, and how far should it be prevented 
 by Criminal Law ? (G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE, 1891) ... 117 
 Trade, United Kingdom, What causes the excess of imports 
 
 over exports in the ? (Mr. LESLIE, 1875) 97 
 
 Transport, control of ... ... ... ... ... ... 197 
 
 Transportation, home convict labour in lieu of (Mr. MERIVALE, 
 
 1853) 68 
 
 Treaties, commercial, economic advantages of (Mr. NEW- 
 MARCH, 1860) 77
 
 454 Political Economy Club 
 
 TAG! 
 
 TREVELYAN (C. P.) National expenditure (1903) 138 
 
 Truck System, should it be abolished by Law (Mr. TOOKE, 
 
 1831) 36 
 
 Trusts, Are they Economically beneficial ? (J. MAC- 
 
 DONELL, 1889) 115 
 
 Trusts 134 
 
 Unemployed, Means of dealing permanently with the 
 
 question (J. MACDONELL, 1895) 122 
 
 Unemployed problem in London ... ... ... ... 145 
 
 Universal Suffrage, economical consequences (Mr MORRI- 
 SON, 1859) 7 6 
 
 Utility and Labour, What is the relative value of ? (Mr. 
 
 JEVONS, 1877) 99 
 
 Value, In saying that a commodity is steady in its, to what 
 
 do we refer ? (Rev. T. R. MALTHUS, 1825) 25 
 
 When it is stated that it consists of Labour and 
 Profit, would it not lead to a more clear and distinct 
 perception of the proposition to define Value, Labour 
 and Profit, and to substitute the definitions for the 
 
 terms ? (1827) 29 
 
 Exchangeable, In what does the circumstance 
 
 determining, differ from the measure of it ? (1824) ... 20 
 Value, increase of, in articles during lapse of time (Mr. 
 
 SENIOR, 1837) 47 
 
 of commodities, different rule of, in one country, and 
 
 in exchange between two (Mr. MILL, 1844) 57 
 
 Voluntary contributions and public objects ... ... ... 129 
 
 Wages, Does the value of, determine the rate of Profit ? 
 
 (Col. TORRENS, 1823) 19 
 
 The meaning of the term (Col. TORRENS, 1824) ... 22 
 Are, a portion of Capital ? (Col. TORRENS, 1825) ... 23 
 ,, The difference in its effect on general prices, of a 
 Tax on, from an ad valorem Tax on all commodities 
 (Mr. TOOKE, 1826) 28
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 455 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Wages. Have they fallen in money value in proportion to 
 the money price of commodities ? and if not, how is 
 the difference to be accounted for ? (Mr. TOOKE, 1832) 38, 39 
 
 effects on, of a greater expenditure on menial 
 servants and a smaller on commodities by the rich 
 (Mr. MILL, 1840) 50 
 
 effect of taxation in raising (Mr. SENIOR, 1845) ... 57 
 
 ,, comparative effect of purchase of commodities and 
 direct purchase of labour on (Mr. MILL, 1852) 66 
 
 their maintenance, irrespective of number of 
 labourers (Mr. CHAD WICK, 1857) 74 
 
 dependent on proportion of Capital to Population 
 (Mr. WALEY, 1872) 93 
 
 of Workmen, The difference in effect on, between 
 combinations and perfectly free competition (1833) ... 40 
 
 ,, Proportional, The precise meaning of the term (1827) 29 
 
 Have they fallen with Prices of Commodities ; 
 
 and if not, why not ? (H. R. GRENFELL, 1883) ... 108 
 
 ,, Mode of regulating, so as to prevent Suspension 
 of Work and promote Prosperity of an Industry 
 (D. DALE, 1884) 109 
 
 Is it possible to frame a theory of, which takes no 
 account of amount of and mode of employment of 
 Capital ? (W. C. SIDGWICK, 1887) 113 
 
 ,, Is new theory of, reconcilable with theory of 
 Economic Rent ? (J. E. C. MUNRO, 1889) 115 
 
 ,, Should Governments fix minimum for, to be paid 
 by the Contractor they employ ? (W. C. SIDGWICK, 
 1892) 119 
 
 ,, Economic ground of defence of a " Living Wage " 
 (F. W. BUXTON, 1893) 120 
 
 ,, What governing causes can be substituted for 
 Wages Fund Doctrine ? (Prof. MARSHALL, 1895) ... 122 
 
 ,, and a legal rate ... ... ... ... ... ... 155 
 
 and Profits, relation between 194 
 
 ,, minimum ... ... ... ... ... ... 168 
 
 ,, ,, in agriculture ... ... ... ... 176 
 
 Real wages, measurement of 167
 
 456 Political Economy Club 
 
 PACE 
 
 Wages, war increase 184 
 
 WALEY (Mr.) The means of producing Wealth is likely 
 to undergo ultimate serious diminution, in a country 
 having a heavy perpetual debt. Should the present 
 annual Taxation be guided by this probability ? (1866) 86 
 The relief by Government to Railway 
 Companies in cases of temporary or other embarrass- 
 ments (1867) 87 
 
 Is it sound policy to prohibit contracts in 
 
 restraint of Trade ? (1869) 90 
 
 Advantages of restraining the latitude of 
 
 Settlement and Entail of Land allowed by Law ( 1870) ... 91 
 ,, Has the Wage Fund theory, that wages 
 
 depend on the proportion of Capital to population, 
 
 been displaced ? (1872) 93 
 
 Should a mixed currency, partly gold and 
 
 partly secured convertible paper, be further regu- 
 lated on sound economical doctrines, with a view to 
 its being at all times the same value as metallic 
 
 currency ? (1873) 94 
 
 War, Gain or Loss to England by protection of private 
 property during time of (Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, 
 
 1863) 81 
 
 rapid recovery from loss of Wealth after cessation 
 
 of (Mr. NEWMARCH, 1871) 92 
 
 War, economic effects ... ... ... ... ... ... 179 
 
 and financial measures 181 
 
 ,, and increased taxation 186 
 
 ,, effect on working classes 193 
 
 WARBURTON (Mr.) How far are Rents and Profits affected 
 
 by Tithes? (182223) r 4 l8 
 
 War Finance and taxation 181 
 
 Waste 154, 159 
 
 Water supply to towns, by companies or by public authority 
 
 (Mr. CHADWICK, 1851) 65 
 
 WATKIN (Mr.) Should all proposed Railways be sanctioned, 
 or only such lines as will produce adequate dividends ? 
 (1868) ... 88
 
 Index to Questions Discussed 457 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Wealth, Has the French Law of Inheritance a tendency to 
 
 the accumulation of ? (Mr. MALLET, 1825) 24 
 
 ,, In modern States, are the most efficient means used 
 for the production of, necessarily conducive to its 
 natural and wholesome distribution ? (Mr. NEWMARCH, 
 1874) ... 96 
 
 In politico-economical discussions, in what sense 
 should the word be used ? (Mr. THORNTON, 1876) ... 97 
 
 ,, and Capital, The effect on, of an increasing taste 
 for menial servants, compared with material products, 
 foreign and domestic (Rev. T. R. MALTHUS, 1826) ... 27 
 
 of Nations, Points and features of improvements in 
 the Science of Political Economy since the publication 
 of Smith's (Mr. TOOKE, 1822) 17 
 
 ,, ,, What important results have followed 
 its publication ? and in what direction does its doctrine 
 still remain unapplied ? (Mr. LOWE, 1876) 98 
 
 Has there been Diminution or Increase of, in 
 United Kingdom in last ten years, and why ? (R. 
 
 GlFFEN, 1887) 112 
 
 Weavers, hand-loom, their formation into home colonies 
 
 (Mr. MILL, 1851) 65 
 
 WEST (Sir RAYMOND). Price of Labour (1893) 120 
 
 ,, ,, Indian Currency (1898) 124 
 
 W T ESTLAKE (Prof. J.) Colonies and Commercial Policy 
 
 (1896) 123 
 
 ,, Taxation (1899) 126 
 
 ,, Education and Political Economy (1903) 137 
 
 WHATELEY (Archbishop). If Rent to be treated as a 
 
 separate source of revenue (1843) 55 
 
 Wheat, probable price of, on repeal of the Corn Laws (Mr. 
 
 WHITMORE, 1842) 53 
 
 WHITMORE (Mr.) The advantages to Great Britain by the 
 
 opening of the China Trade (1830) ... 34 
 
 ,, Probable price of wheat on repeal of the 
 
 Corn Laws (1842) ... ... ... ... ... ... 53 
 
 Prospects of Agriculture under Free 
 Trade (1850) 63
 
 458 Political Economy Club 
 
 PAGE 
 
 WILKINSON (Mr.) Principle of limited liability for Joint 
 
 Stock Banks (1858) 75 
 
 Adherence to Political Economy in 
 
 dealing with social condition (1859) ... ... ... 76 
 
 Wine, etc., foreign, effect of diminution of price of (Col. 
 
 TORRENS, 1835) 44 
 
 WITHERS (HARTLEY). Extravagance and poverty (1915)... 176 
 
 ,, ,, Laissez-faire (1915) 178 
 
 ,, War and increased taxation (1917) 186 
 
 National Guilds (1918) 194 
 
 ,, Economic Education (1920) ... 201 
 
 Working Classes, erection for, and disposal amongst, of 
 
 adequate dwellings (Mr. HARE, 1867) ... 87 
 
 Working-Class dwellings 129 
 
 Women and men, equal pay 193 
 
 Note. This index incorporates the indexes which appeared in 
 Vol. IV. and VoL V. The questions which in the earlier years often 
 appear in the Minutes without a name are sometimes assigned in the 
 index to a member who proposed or (if he did not originally propose) 
 opened the question to the Club.
 
 GENERAL INDEX 
 
 (Exclusive of pages 1-204, f r which see Index to Questions.) 
 
 Aldenham (Hucks Gibbs), 330, 346, 352. 
 Althorp, 220-1, 231, 241, 335. 
 Ashley, xii, 309. 
 Ashworth, 277. 
 Avebury, xvi, 330, 352. 
 
 Bagehot, xvi, 327-8, 351. 
 
 Balfour, A. J., 313, 316, 345, 354-5, 
 
 Banfield, 290. 
 
 Basevi, 226. 
 
 Baring, Alex., 250, 337. 
 
 B., 294-5. 
 Bell, xxvi. 
 Blake, W., senr., 220, 244, 279, 284, 286, 294-6. 
 
 ,, junr., 296. 
 
 Bonar, xxv, xxvi. 
 Bramwell, xvi, 316, 329, 347, 351. 
 Brassey, xvi. 
 
 Buller, 279, 282-3, 286-7, 335. 
 Burdett, Sir F., 271. 
 Buxton, F. W., xvi. 
 Booth, Charles, 353, 354. 
 
 Cairnes, xvii, xx, 327-8. 
 Cazenove, 212. 
 Chalmers, Dr., 215-6, 287. 
 
 459
 
 460 Political Economy Club 
 
 Chadwick, xix, 243, 257, 267, 276, 280, 286, 288-9, 294, 297, 298, 
 
 3ii, 33i. 343, 345- 
 Chesney, 313. 
 Clay, 291-3, 296. 
 Cleland, 246. 
 Cobbett, 223, 342. 
 Congleton (Sir H. Parnell), 215, 216, 220, 223, 229, 230-2, 241, 
 
 259, 272, 280. 
 
 Coulson, 215, 237, 254, 263, 269, 284, 293, 294, 298. 
 Courtney, xv, xvi, xxi, xxv, 313, 314, 315, 323, 325-332, 347 
 
 350-3, 355- 
 Cowell, 259, 278, 301. 
 
 Dilke, vii, xxi, 309-310, 330, 351. 
 
 Eden, Sir F. M., 227. 
 
 Edgeworth, Maria, ix, xii. 
 
 Eversley (G. J. Shaw Lefevre), xv, 309. 
 
 Fairer, 316, 331, 343, 345, 352. 
 Fawcett, xvi, 310, 313, 329, 352. 
 Forster, xv. 
 Foxwell, xv, 317, 321, 322, 350. 
 
 Galiano, xi. 
 
 Giffen, xvi, xxv, xxvi, 315, 331, 347, 352, 355. 
 
 Gladstone, xiv, xv, xvi, 283, 312, 330, 350. 
 
 Goschen, xiv, xvi, 317, 350. 
 
 Graham, 278-9, 290. 
 
 Greg, 277, 328, 344, 351. 
 
 Grenfell, H. R., xxiv, xxv, 207, 212, 317-323, 330, 346, 352. 
 
 Hankey, T., 350. 
 
 Hare, 316. 
 
 Harrison, F., xiv, xv, 310, 330. 
 
 Harvey Whittle, 231. 
 
 Higgs, xxv, xxvi.
 
 General Index 461 
 
 Hill, Sir R., 308. 
 
 Hodgson, xvii. 
 
 Holland, S. C., x, xi. 
 
 Holland-Martin, xi. 
 
 Hollander, ix. 
 
 Horner, 274-5. 
 
 Hubbard, J. G., 281, 285, 330. 
 
 Hume, David, 219, 289. 
 
 J. D., 262, 263, 266, 269. 
 
 Joseph, 213, 220. 
 
 Jackson, xxiii. 
 
 Jacob, 289. 
 
 Jevons, xv, xvi, xvii, xx, 310-312, 334. 
 
 Jones, Rev. R., 249, 259, 262, 337. 
 
 Larpent, xiv, 267, 271, 279, 284, 339. 
 
 Lee- Warner, xiv, 347. 
 
 Leslie Cliffe, xvii, 310, 317, 318, 322, 328. 
 
 Leveson-Gower, 354, 355. 
 
 Lewis, Sir G. C., 322. 
 
 Lowe (Lord Sherbrooke), x, xv, 312, 313, 316, 330, 346. 
 
 Loyd, A. T., xxiv. 
 
 Lyall, 227, 229, 249. 
 
 McCulloch, Hugh, xvi, 311. 
 
 McCulloch, J. R., ix, xii, xiii, xvii, xviii, xxi, 206, 213, 214, 219, 
 222, 224-230, 232-5, 238, 240, 242, 243, 252-256, 259, 262, 
 264, 265, 267, 268, 270, 271, 276-283, 285-294, 303-5. 
 MacdoneU, xxv, 316, 332-34 8 349. 355- 
 Mackenzie, 286, 294, 298. 
 Maclaine, 217. 
 Macleod, xvi. 
 McVickar, 217. 
 Mallet, Sir Bernard, xxii, xxv, xxvi, 315, 331. 
 
 ,, J. L., ix, xii, xiii, xxii, xxiii, xxiv, 205-275, 305, 331. 
 
 ,, Sir Louis, xxi, xxiii, 309, 313, 314.
 
 462 Political Economy Club 
 
 Malthus, ix, xi, xiii, 209, 212, 214, 224-6, 228, 233-4, 2 47 248, 
 
 253. 256, 260, 264-6, 273, 300, 304, 305, 309, 341. 
 Malthusian Theory, xix, 305. 
 Marshall, 353. 
 
 Merchants' Petition, vii, viii, xi, xv, 337. 
 Merivale, 280, 285, 293, 331. 
 Mill, James, vii, viii, ix, xi, xiii, 209, 212, 213, 216, 224, 300, 
 
 303-4. 306, 309. 
 Mill, J. S., xvi, xvii, 231, 279, 282-4, 290-298, 304, 309-311, 315, 
 
 318, 320-2, 326, 327, 334, 352. 
 Milnes, Monckton (Lord Houghton), 289, 309. 
 Monteagle (T. Spring-Rice), 233, 235, 236, 244, 250, 259, 280, 
 
 282, 286, 287, 294. 
 Morley, J., 309, 313, 330, 345. 
 Morrison, 255, 263, 277. 
 Moult on, 329. 
 
 Muffins at the Club, xxi, 310, 326, 355, 356. 
 Mundella, 312, 350. 
 
 Newmarch, vii, viii, xv, xvi, 307, 311, 313, 314, 323, 327, 343, 
 
 347, 350, 35i- 
 
 Norman, viii, xv, xvi, xviii, xxiv, 220, 223, 228-230, 267, 279-281, 
 285, 289, 293, 294, 297-9, 305-8, 325, 330. 
 
 Overstone (S. J. Loyd), xiii, xiv, xvii, xviii, xxiv, 237, 240, 261, 
 
 268, 269, 273-5, 278-285, 288, 291, 295-8, 305-8, 330. 
 Owen, R., 342. 
 
 Palgrave, 350. 
 
 Palmer, J. H., 232, 238, 240, 350. 
 
 Pennington, 226, 233, 237, 239, 241, 259-261, 269, 279, 294. 
 
 Phillips, portrait of Ricardo, xxvi, 209. 
 
 Political Economy Club 
 
 Meeting places, xxii. 
 
 What it has done, 333-348. 
 Pollon, 285. 
 Porter, 278, 281, 286, 297.
 
 General Index 463 
 
 Prevost, A. L., 292. 
 
 J. L., xxi, xxiii, xxiv, 276-299. 
 Prinsep, 212. 
 Pryme, 276, 294, 297. 
 
 Ricardo, viii, ix, xiii, xxvi, 205-214, 223-5, 232, 254, 262, 270, 
 
 273. 291, 300-303, 309, 315, 321, 341, 347, 350. 
 Rogers, xv, 315, 316, 328, 347. 
 Romilly, 227, 329. 
 Rose, xxiii. 
 
 Say, J. B., xv, xvi, xvii, 300-302. 
 
 ,, Leon, xv, xvi. 
 Senior, xvii, 224, 226-7, 2 36, 237, 240, 242, 244, 253-6, 261-5, 
 
 268, 274-6, 281-3, 288, 291-5, 305, 342. 
 Sidgwick, H., xvi, 313, 315, 316, 322, 329, 353. 
 
 W. C., 316, 347. 
 
 Smith, Sidney, 240, 280, 281, 284, 322. 
 Spencer, Herbert, 331. 
 Spring-Rice, S. E., xii. 
 Stebbing, xv, xxv, 315, 323, 355, 356. 
 Strachey, xxvi. 
 Sumner, 330. 
 
 Thompson, 223, 227. 
 
 Thomson, 229, 255. 
 
 Thornton, 296-9, 313, 314, 331, 344, 345. 
 
 Thring, 331. 
 
 Tooke, vii, viii, ix, x, xiii, xv, 205, 212, 214, 218, 219, 220, 222-240, 
 
 245, 246, 252, 262, 265, 266, 268, 270-273, 277-286, 289, 290, 
 
 294-6, 303, 305-7. 
 Torrens, xiii, xvi, 212, 219, 222-226, 228, 232, 234, 259, 261-8, 
 
 270, 279, 284, 285, 288, 289, 291, 294, 300, 303, 342. 
 
 Vardon, 284. 
 
 Villiers, C. P., 313, 330, 350. 
 
 Waley, xvi, 316, 329.
 
 464 Political Economy Club 
 
 Warburton, 246, 282, 287-9, 36-7- 
 
 Welby, 331. 
 
 West, 347. 
 
 Westlake, xvi. 
 
 Whately, 220, 222, 248, 266. 
 
 Whitmore, 263, 280. 
 
 Wolowski, 299. 
 
 Yves-Guy ot, xvii. 
 
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