■imm iiliili l!ill|i!!i^^ 'iiiiil lUiJ III -liiiiiil :!iiili|i R E P (> R T FBOM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS, ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL [H.L]; TOGETHER WITH THB PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Session 1865. Ordered to be printed 5th May 1865. (90.) REPORT --_--._-.. p. iii PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE - - - - p. v MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - p. 1 APPENDIX p. 285 ( ii: ) lis REP O R T. BY THE SELECT COMMITTEE on '' The Public Schools Bill [H. L. J ;" and to whom were referred several Petitions relating to the subject-matter of the Inquiry, with Leave to the Petitioners, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill, to be heard as desired ; and to Report to The House : — ORDERED TO REPORT, That the Committee have met, and considered the said Bill, and also the said Petitions, and have ordered the said Bill to be reported to your Lord- ships, with some Amendments ; and the Committee have directed the Minutes of Evidence, together with an Appendix, taken before them, to be laid before your Lordships. 5th May 1865. (90.) a 2 ( iv ) . ORDER OF REFERENCE. Die Martis, 2* Maii, 1865. Public Schools Bill [H. L.]. Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, discharged ; and Bill referred to a Select Committee : the Committee to be named on Thursday next. Die Jovis, 4 Maii, 1865. The Lords following were named of the Committee : the Committee to meet To-morrow, at Four o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman : H.R. H. the Prince of Wales. Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of HaiTowby. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Houghton. And all Petitions, with the exception of the Petition of Culti\ators of Natural Science (presented on Tuesday last), referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill, to be heard as desired. Die Veneris, 5* Mad, 1865. The Evidence taken from time to time bcibre the Select Committee to be printed for the use of the Members of this House, but no Copies thereof to be delivered, except to the Members of the Committee, until I'uitlicr Order. The Lord Wrottesley uddetl to the Committee. ( V ) LORDS PRESENT, \ND MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AT EACH SITilNG OF THE COMMITTEE. Die Veneris, 5° Mad, 1865. L<1UDS PRESENT I H. R. H. The Prince of Wales. Lord Presideut. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of C'arnarvon. Order of Reference read. Earl of Powis. Earl of Ilarrowby. Viscount Stratford de RedclifFe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Iloufriiton. Order of the House of yesterday, empowering tlie Committee to appoint tlieir own Chairman, read. It Is proposed, Tliat the Earl of Clarendon do take the Chair. The same Is agreed to, and the Earl of Clarendon takes the Chair accordingly. Order of the House fif yesterday, referring to the Committee all Petitions relating to the Bill, with tlie exception of the Petition of Cultivators of Natural Science (presented on Tuesday last), with leave to the Petitioners, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill, to be heard as desired, read. The course of Proceeding is considered. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Thursday next, Twelve o'clock. Die Jovis, 1 1° Mali, 1865. LORDS PRESENT: Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lj'tteltou. Lord Houghton. The Earl of Clarendon in the Chair. Order of Adjournment read. The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read. Order of the House of Friday last, That the Evidence taken from time to time before the Select Committee be printed for the use of the Members of this House, but that no Copies thereof be delivered, exeei>t to the Members of the Committee, imtll further Order, read. Order of the House of Friday last, adding the Lord fJ'roffes lei/ to the Committee, read. Order of the House of Monday last, referring to the Committee a Petition for the amendment of t'le Bill ; of the Master and Fellows of Gonville and Caius College, Cam- bridge, read. (90.) a3 The yi PKOCEEDIKGS OF TUE SELECT COMMITTEE The Counsel aud Parties are ordered to be called in. Mr. J. Johnson, Q. C, is heard to state the case for the Petition of tlie Wardens and Commonalty of the Mystery of Mercers of the City of London. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till To-morrow, Twelve o'clock. Die Veneris, 12° Muii, 1865. LOllDS PKESE^'T : Lord President. Duke of Marlborougli. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Pi>wis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Houohton. The Earl of Clarendon in the Chair. Order of Adjournment read. The Proceedings of the Cominittee of yesterday are read. Order of tlie House of yesterday, referring to the Committee a Petition of the Master, Fellows, and Scholars of St. Mai-y Magdalene College, Cambridge, prajing to be beard by Counsel against the Bill, read. The Counsel and Parties are ordered to be called in. ]\Ir. G. E. Cottrell is heard to state the case for tlie Petition of the Inhabitants of Rugby, The following Witnesses are called in, and examined (t'z'rfe the Evidence) ; viz., Mr. 3Iatthew JJul/icach lilox(n)i,J\ev. Charles Edumrd Oakley, Mr. Charles Marriott Caldecott, Kev. Albert Edicard If'ratislaic, Mi'. Edmund Edmunds, ^Iv. James Henry Ramsay, Mr. William Sale, and Eev. Samuel Neicall. Ordered, That the Committee be adjoui'ned till Monday next. Twelve o'clock. Die LiOKB, 15" Mail, 18G5. LOKDS present: H. E. II. The Prince of Wales. Lord President. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of ('larendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Eaid of Powis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Ilonijhton. Tlie Earl of Clarendon in the Chair. Order of Adjournment read. TIic Proceedings of the Conuuittee of Friday last are read. The Counsel and Parties are ordered to be called in. ]\Ir. Miehad is heard to state the case for the Petiticm of Freeholders, Leaseholder* and lnlialii(ants of Ilarrow-on-the-IIiil, Middlesex. The following Witnesses arc called in, and examined (c/f/c the Evidence): \\z,M\: John Jiillirtjii Ciiiiiiiiii/ham, Ml'. Daniel Wiltshire Soames, Kev. Hllliam Marsden Hind, !RIj-. Thinnas llnrlelt, Mrs. Phnhe Catherine Prior, Mr. Artlinr l.any, Mr. Edward Eames JJeothJield, I!e^■. J/ayvurd Joyce, Mr. Charles Francis Humbert, I\Ir. /iiehnrd Chapnian, Mr. William Jl'inlihy, Mr. John Chajiman, Mr. Alexander Edivurd JMiller, Rev. Charles L lenient J.ayard, and Mr. Charles Co.v. Ordered, That tlie (,'omniittee be adjourned ill! Friday next, Twelve o'clock. ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS lULL [ir. L.] Die Veneris, 19" Mail., 18G5, vn LOKDS I'RESKNT ; Lord President. Duke of Marlboroiiui'nuicnt road. The Proceedings of the Committee of Monday tlie 29th of May last, are read. Tlie Title of tbc 15111 ih read, anil pustpoiied. The Preamble ol' ilic I)ili is also read, and postponed. It is tben moved iiy the Earl Sfanhope, That the Connnittee do now proceed to reniodcl the (ylanses on tlic basis that there shall l)c no change in the present governing bodies of the sehonj.-i, but that there .>nl HougliUjn. Not Content. TI. R. H. The Prince of Wales. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Eversley. The division being ei^ual, it is resolved in the Negative. Clause ON TnE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL [ll. L.] XI Clause 15 is read; and it is proposed by the Lord Lyttelton, to leave out " su})jects of study," aud to insert " introduction of now branches of study, and the suppression of old ones, and the relative importance to be assigned to eacli branch of study," in lieu thereof. Objected to. On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause : Content. H. K H. The Prince of Wales. Ijord President. Earl of ITarrowhy. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Wrottesley. Lord Houghton. Not Content. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Viscount Stratford de Redclifle. Lord Lyttelton. The words proposed to be inserted by the Lord Li/ttelton are then read, and agreed to. It is then proposed by the Lord Bishop of London, to insert at the end of the Lonl Lyttelton's Amendment, " and the system of promotion in the school." Objected to. On Question, That the words be inserted: Content. H. R. H. The Prince of Wales. Lord President. Duke of Marlborousfh. Not Content. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Povvis. Lord Lyttelton. Earl Stanhoj)e. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Stratford de EedclifTe. Viscount Everslcy. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Wrottesley. Lord Houghton. It is then proposed by the Lord Lyttelton, to leave out from "study," in line 31, to the end of the paragraph. Objected to. On Question, That the words proposed to be leftout stand part of the Clause : Not Content. H. R. H. The Prince of Wales. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Lord Lyttelton. The Clauses of the Bill up to Clause 16 are read, and Amendments are made therein. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Monday next, Twelve o'clock. Content. Lord President. Earl of Clarendon. Eaid of HaiTOwby. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Wrottesley. Lord HouEfhton. Die uncc, 19° Junii, 186.5. LORDS PRESENT : Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Ijyttelton. Lord Wrottesley. Lord Houghton. The Earl of Clarendon in the Chair. Order of Adjournment read. The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read. (90.) Clause xu PROCEEDIXGS : SELECT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL [ll. L.] Clause 16 is read; and it is proposed by the Earl of Powis, to leave out " be appointed by and," in page 8, line 1. Objected to. On Question, That the wordsproposed tobe left out stand part of the Clause : Not Content. Earl of Powis. Content. Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Stratford de Redcllffe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Wrottesley. Lord Houghton. Clause 22 is read, and Amendments are made therein ; and it is proposed by the Chair- man to" insert " and shall provide for the cessation within a period of not more than Twenty years after the passing of this Act of the privileges of free education at Harrow and Ru"-by Schools, and of alf rights of preference in election to John Lyon's Scholar- ships conferred on any particular persons or classes of persons," at the end of the Clause. Objected to. On Question, That the words be inserted : Content. Lord President. Earl of Clarendon. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Wrottesley. Not Content. Duke of Marlboroiigh. Earl of Derby. Earl Stanho2)e. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowbj'. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Houghton. The remaining Clauses of the Bill are read, and Amendments are made therein. The Preamble of the Bill is again read, and Amendments are made therein. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Thursday next, Four o'clock. Die Jovis, 22" Junii, 1S65. LORDS PRESENT; H. R. H. The Prince of M'ales Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Dcrljy. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Powis. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bisho)) of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Wrottesley. The Earl of Clarendon in the Chair. Order of Adjournment read. The Proceedings of the Committee of Monday last are read. The Bill, as re-printed, with the Amendments, is laid before the Committee by the Chairman. The same is considered, and several further Amendments are made therein. The Preamble of the Bill is again read, and is agreed to, with Amendments. The Title of the Bill is also again read, and is agreed to, with an Amendment. Ordf.rrd, That the Lord in the Chair do report the Bill, with the Amendments thereto, to the House. [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (90.) [ 2 ] LIST OF WITNESSES. Bk Veneris, 12° Mail, 1865. Mattliew Holbeacli Bloxam, Esq. Rev. Charles Edward Oakley, m.a. Charles Marriott Caldecott, Esq. Rev. Albert Henry Wratislaw - iVIr. Edmund Edmunds James Henry Ramsay, Esq. William Sale, Esq. - - - Rev. Samuel Newall Die Lunce, \b° Mail, 1865. p- 43 p- 52 p- 55 p- 61 p- 64 p- 67 p- 71 p- 73 P- 95 P- 107 P- 111 P- 112 P- 113 P- 115 P- 117 P- 118 P- 125 P- 128 P- 131 P- 134 P- 135 P- 135 P- 136 Mr. John William Cunningham Mr. Daniel Wiltshire Soames Rev. William Marsden Hind Mr. Thomas Hewlett Mrs. Phoebe Catherine Pj'ior Mr. Arthur Lang Mr. Edward Eames Heathfield • Rev. Hay ward Joyce - Mr. Charles Francis Humbert Mr. Richard Chapman Mr. William Winkley Ml'. John Chapman - Mr. Alexander Edward Miller - Rev. Charles Clement Layard - Mr. Charles Cox Die Veneris, 19° Mail, 1865. Rev. Fiederick Temple, d.d. ------ p. 139 Rev. Henry Montague Butler ------ p. 166 Die Veneris, 26° Maii, 1865. Rev. William Menry Bateson, d.d. - - _ - . p. 239 Rev. Iknjaniin Hall Kennedy, d.d. - - - - - P- ^42 Die Lunce, 29° Maii, 1865. Mr. Edward Allcsbcy B()n<;hton Ward Boughton Leigh - p. 257 Hon. and Rev. Latimer Neville, M.A. - - - - - V- 281 [ 3 ] Die Jovis, ir Mali, 1865. LORDS PRESENT: Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowbt. Viscount EVERSLEY. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Houghton. The earl OF CLARENDON, in the Chair. AJr. Johnson, q.c, appears as Counsel in support of the Petition of the i^t'^ ^^y ^^'^S- Wardens and Commonalty of the Mystery of Mercers in the (>ity of London. Mr. Michael appears as Counsel in support of the Petition of Freeholders, Leaseholders, and Inhabitants of Harrow-on-the-Hill, Middlesex. Mr. Cottrell appears as Counsel m support of the Petition of the Inha- bitants of llugby. Mr. Michael applies for permission that copies of the Evidence taken before the Committee may be supplied to the Parliamentary Agents, ac- cording to the practice before Committees on Private Bills. The Counsel and parties are directed to withdraw. After some time the Counsel and parties are again called in. Chairman.'] The Committee are of opinion that it is their duty to adhere to the rules of the House, and as both the rules and the practice of the House of Lords are very stringent, they think they ought not to facilitate or permit, as far as they can prevent it, the premature publication of evidence. Mr. Johnson.l Are your Lordships prepared now that I should proceed to address you on behalf of the Mercers' Company. Chairman.] I think it right to repeat what was said by the Committee at its last meeting, that we must request Counsel that they will restrict themselves to the interests injuriously affected, that being the point upon which we have agreed to hear Counsel, and that they will not enter at all into the policy of the Bill. Mr. Johnson.] I shall certainly endeavour to follow your Lordships' direc- tions. I am sure if your Lordship will kindly intimate to me at any time that I am pursuing a line of argument or discussion which is not strictly within my province, no one will be more ready at once to desist from it than I shall. My Lords, T have the honour to appear before your Lordships in this case upon the Petitions of the Wardens and Commonalty of the Mystery of Mercers of the City of London, under their common seal, against a Bill which I dare say most of your Lordships are familiar with, entitled, " A Bill to make further Provision for the good Government and Extension of Public Schools."' i do (90.) A 2 not 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE nth May 1865. not know whether your Lordships have the Bill hefore you, but I dare say I ''' may be pardoned if I very shortly go through the provisions of it, in order to show to what extent, and in what manner, it affects the interests of those for whom I have the honour to appear. Dealing with it then, so far as St. Paul's School, or the ^^'ardens and Commonalty of the Mercers' Company are con- cerned, you will see that the Preamble recites that a Royal " Commission was issued in the year 1861, under Letters Patent of Her Majesty, for the purpose of inquiring into the nature and application of the endowments, into the administration and management, studies and teaching of certain colleges and schools," and lower down it states that amongst those is " St. Paul's School, in the City of London." I will now shortly proceed with some of the clauses which appear to me immediately to affect the question, and the first is, the 4th Clause ; the first three clauses relating only to the title of tlie Act, and other things which are not material at present. The 4th Clause states, " The governing bodies of the sevei'al schools mentioned in the right schedules annexed hereto, shall consist of the persons mentioned in the said schedules respectively, and the provisions therein contained shall be of the same force as if they were enacted in the body of this Act." We then come to the 8th Section, which provides for the transfer of the powers of the existing governing bodies ; I will only trouble your Lordships by reading the latter part of that clause, which says, " the governing bodies of St. Paul's " (I am only using the words which apply to my case) •' shall have such rights, powers, privileges, and obligations, as are given or imposed upon them by this Act, and shall also be entitled to the administration of all such real or personal property as may be appropriated to or applicable to the maintenance of ' St. Paul's School.' " I pray your Lord- ships' attention to that, because I may have to refer to the words again. It is not simply iiny endowment now existing, or which was derived originally from the founder, but it is " such real or personal property as may be appro- priated to or applicable to the maintenance " of the school. I do not dwell now upon that ; I do not even tell your Lordships why I emphasize those words, but as 1 shall have to allude to them hereafter, I think I may proceed now to tlie other clauses. Clause 9 contains power generally to make statutes. Clause 15 is general power to make regulations. 1 do not go into the regula- tions of course now ; 1 am only showing what are the general powers of the governing body. Then, Claiise'28 provides, " The governing body of St. Paul's School may, if they deem it expedient, at any time after the passin<^ of this Act, lay a scheme before Her Majesty in Council for the removal of the school i'rom its actual site to some other place, and may provide in such scheme for the sale or mortgage of the existing property of the school, for the purchase of other property and the erectiori of new buildings, and generally for all matters required to effect such removal in a convenient manner." I shall have occasion also, no doubt, at a subsequent time, to refer to the Saving Clauses, and therefore 1 will, if your Lordships will permit me, direct your attention to those clauses now. Clause 29 is the Saving Clause, as far as regards persons ; and (Clause 30 is the Saving Clause as far as regards property; that is to say, property under tlie control of the governing bodies. Clause 29 IS, " Nothing contained in this Act, or done in ])ursuance of the powers thereby conferred, shall prejuchee the interest of any member of the governing body, or master of any of the said schools who may have been appointed to his office previously to the passing of "The Public Schools Act, 1864." That 1 under- stand to mean, that there was an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament on piu-pose to pi-event any rights vesting, so that if the appointment was sub- sequent to that date, no advantage should b(' taken of it as a vested right, " or the mterest of any member of the collegiate bodies of Eton or Windiester." That does not apply so )nueh to me, though I see " Winchester " mentioned there, of which 1 have the honour to be a scliolar ; at i)resent :t does not apply to me at all, as appearing befcn-e your Lordships as Counsel for the Comjiany whom I rei)resent. 'J'hen follows Clause 30 : " Nothing iierein contained shall anect the jjropcrty, rights, jiowers, privileges, or obligations of the existing governmg body of any school to wliieh this Act ajiplies during such time as may intervene between the passing of tliis Act, and the reconstruction in pur- suance thereof of tlu; said governing Ixxlies." I think, if I now call your Lordships' attention to the Schedule which has reference SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 5 reference to St. Paul's School, namely the 8th Schedule, I shall, for the present nth .Maj iSCj. at all events, have troubled you with all tlie reference I shall icquire to make to the contents of the Bill itself. The Schedule I refer to is the last Schedule. " The Governing Body " (that is of St. Paul's School) " shall consist of the following persons, that is to say, of th(; Master, the v.'ardens, the surveyor- accountant, and the surveyor-assistant of the Mercers' (Company ; of two other members of the Mercers' Company, to be elected by the Court of Assistants of that Company, and of two persons nominated by the Crown." I must trouble your Lordships with what follows, because I shall have to observe upon it here- after. " The Master of the Mercers' Company shall, within three months after the passing of this Act, call a meeting of the Court of Assistants of that Com- pany, and at such meeting an election of the two elective members of that body shall take place by a majority of votes of the members present at the meeting. If from any cause whatever an election of two elective members has not taken place within the said period of three months. Her Majesty may nominate a person or persons to till the vacancy or vacancies caused by such non-election." I have now adverted to the Bill, or such portions of the Bill as raise the ques- tions in opposition which I shall have, ni the course of my address to your Lordships, to urge on behalf of the petitioners; I do not not know whether your Lordships have copies of the petition. Lord Lyttelton^ Yes ; there are two petitions ; but they are substantially the same ; one was presented before the Connnittee was appointed, and the other afterwards. Mr. Johnson.'] Then as 1 must go a little more in detail into the history and other matters, I will not dwell further upon what is set foi'th in the petition, except to state it in outline, because otherwise I shall be stating matters which I must go through specifically afterwards, therefore I will only glance at the outline of the petition . Earl of Derby.'] The petitions are identical, except that the last of them prays to be heard by Counsel, and the other does not. Mr. Johnson.'] Of course, my Lord, I shall only deal with the former portion of the petition, the latter portion being already fulfilled by my appearance here. The former part of it gives the history, and states the nature of the foundation, which I shall go into presently. It states then what was the condition upon which the Company took upon themselves the support and maintenance of the schools. It then describes the administration, ancl what has been the expen- diture fi-om their funds from time to time. It then states that a Royal Com- mission was appointed, and then refers to the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and it proceeds to state that notwithstanding that recom- mendation, the petitioners have been included in the Bill, which will " injui'iously interfere with their rights and prejudicially affect the school." It then refers to the proposed reconstruction, and complains of that as being unjust towards themselves, and not conducive to the interests of the school : and the Company say that it is in the nature of an impeachment of their integrity and capability for the office which they have fulfilled, and then it speaks of the competitive system. Now perhaps I may distinctly take your Lordships' opinion at this point as to whether I am to be at liberty to make any comment upon that which seems to me to be to some extent a tjuestion of policy. I should have a few words to say upon it, inasmuch as it is a part of the recommendation of the Conunissioners, and also cne of the provisions of the Bill, that competitive examinations are to take place. If I am to be ])recluded from that subject, your Lordships will tell me so. I should l)e very short in what I have to say upon it, but I should not like to be irregular, even if I am brief. It is very material, 1 may say, as affecting this particular school, and therefore perhaps I may be permitted to say a few words upon it. It will be at variance, as I shall contend, with the actual ordinance of the founder. For that reason, and not arguing it as a question of policy, perhaps I might be entitled to advert to it. Earl of Derby.] You conceive that introducing the principle of competition does away with certain rights to which certain parties are now entitled .' Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord, quite so ; and it is contrary, as I shall contend, to the ordinance of the founder himself. (90.) A 3 Earl 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE nth May 1865. Earl of Derbi/.'] That is not a question of policy. Mr. Joh7iso7i.'] No, my Lord, it did not occur to me in that light at the first moment, or I should" have made that remark. Then the [petition goes on to refer to the power that the High Master should have, and to speak of the parties in whom the control should be vested, and it closes generally with the petition to your Lordships' House, that this Bill may not pass into a law. My lords, the main ground, or at any rate one of the main grounds, upon which, first of all, I shall claim that this Bill ought not to be extended in any of its features, or in its operation to the Company for whom I appear, is this, that they are really not trustees of this property at all, but that they claim a beneficial interest in it. I do not for a moment suppose that your Lordships •will go at all into the question of title ; but at the same time it is essential that I should bring this matter before your Lordships, because the Bill would have this effect upon it. Of course, if we were brought under the operation of this Bill, seeing that Parliament is omnipotent if the question of title were not to be entertained here at all, the rights of these parties would be concluded without their having an opportunity of appealing to any Court of competent jurisdiction to determine what their rights and title are. But I do not suppose for a single moment, on the other hand, that your Lordships would give any Parliamentary title to the petitioners by expressing any decision in their favour upon the matters 1 shall lay before you. I frequently have the honour of appearing before Committees of this House, and of the other House of Parliament, and 1 do not know that I have learned from my experience in such cases anything more distinctly than this : that questions of title will not be entertained by Committees. But here it is indispensable for me to enter upon the question, because it is one of the main features of the case I shall have to put before you. Perhaps I may now refer to what is stated in the Report with reference to this matter, and which has occasioned some surprise amongst those who are interested in this inquiry, when they found that St. Paul's School was included at all within the 0|ieration of this Bill. I will refer your Lordshi]is to page 188, first of all, of the Report of the Com- missioners, in which you will tind this passage, and I shall fortify it with a good deal of reference to evidence, I am happy to say, of a documentary character, which will n')t be vivu voce, or detain your Lordship very long. " According to their own view, the Mercers' Company are beneficially interested in the surplus revenues of this property, after maintaining the school according to Dean Colet's Ordinance." Then passing on further to page 201, your Lordships will find, at the close of the summary of recommendations given there, four lines from the toj) of the i:»age, after stating what their recommendations were, which I need not refer to at this moment, " Unhappily, however, the tenure of the school property is hitherto an undetermined question, and so long as that is the case it*\voidd be premature to bring any such scheme under the attention of the Legislature. We advise, therefore, that in regard to the first four general reconmiendations, action be deferred in the case of this school until the legal question he definitively settled." No steps have been taken to settle that question, although we do not flinch at all from the inquiry ; and our contention is, that until some such steps are taken, not only would the effect of |)assing such a Bill as this be the disfran- chisenunt of those who have been hitherto the administrators of the school, but it would be an actual })ri\ation of the rights and interests of the parties who claim this property as their own. Do not let me be misunderstood ; it will be clear enough before I close, that though they state this to be their own property to which they are entitled, no one supjjoses that they have appro- priated one shilling of that property to their own private uses or interests, but they have, in the exercise of their own discretion, applied the jiroceeds of this pro])erty, which is their own, to purposes of educational and scholastic benefit connected with .St. Paul's School. Iia\ing stated then what it is that I resist here, and having stated that the eft'ect of the Bill would be not only disfran- chisement, but privation of proi)erty, I will call your Lord-hij)s' attention to what I read in (me of the ])assages of a section before, showing that the pro- perty touched by the Bill would not be merely the property constituting the original endowment, hiit that it would be in point of fa(;t all in-operty appro- priated or a])plieable, and would therefore include such property as they them- selves have devoted to these particular uses. I may SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS RILL. !H. L.j 7 1 may slate, therefore, as my first proposition, that tlie Coinj)any claim to he iith May iSGs. excluded from the operation of this Bill, as not heing trustees of the property, but lioldina: as p;u-ties heneticially interested, on condition of their niiuntainiiif^ the school according to the Dtan's ori<^inal ordinance. There is no doubt, I believe, that as a matter of law (and I have legal authority for it, though we are not in the habit often of bringing such matters before; your Lordships) that such a gift of projierty, even if there is no express |)rovision as to how the property shall be held, will confer an absolute title upon the parties who hold it under such conditions. I am afraid I must trouble yoiu' Lordships next with a little history upon this subject, because I must start by showing you who these parties are, that is to say, who the wardens and commonalty of the Mys- tery of Mercers under their common seal are. They were incorporated by Boyal Charter as far back as 139.3, that is to say, in the time of Hichard the 2d ; and I believe they existed long anterior to that time, if it were necessary to go into that, because belbre the granting of that charter they were a guild or body of merchant adventurers trading across the sea for merchandise, and they flate back as far as the Conquest. However, it is quite enough for me to begin with the Charter of Incorporation of liichard the 2d, in 1393. Then the particular administrative members were the four wardens ; they had a license to hold land in mortmain, and they had under another charter of Henry the 6th, in 1424, the power to use a common seal. At a snbsef|uent period a nundjer of per- sons were made assistant members, to the number of 12 ; that was in 1403. Subsequently to that they were increased to 25. and that number, together with the four wardens, have now for upwards of 300 years conducted the busi- ness of the Company, the 25 assistants having been always elected for life, and called ''The Court of Assistants of this Institution." That brings us down to the year 1510. There seems to be some littlecpiestion as to whether the school was absolutely founded by Dean Colet, for a school appears to have stood previously upon the site, or in the place wneie the school ultimately was founded by him, the site of which school he obtained ; therefore we will take it that in 1510, as far as our records show, and as nearly as we can ascertain the precise date. Dr. John Colet, who was then the Dean of St. Paul's, and himself a member of this Mercers' Company, and the son of Sir Henry Colet, who was also a mercer, and who I think had been twice Lord Mayor of London, built the school of St. Paul's, in St. Paul's churchyard. Perhaps the better way for me would be not to treat this as a matter of history, but to read to your Lordships (and it will not take long) the various ordinances, which I must deal with sooner or later, luider whicli this scho(jl itself was esta- blished. Now, m)^ Lords, the eftect of what happened I may tell you at once was, that he granted estates in Buckinghamshire to the Company and their suc- cessors, to hold tue same for the continuation of a school in St. Paul's Church- yard. I am reading the words shortly ; I will not read them at length, but only where I think they are necessary. In one of the earlier ordinances I find that it was " for boys, in good manners and literature to be taught." That was the purpose of the original institution. Then we come next to the masters. There was to be a high master and one or two assistant ushers, according to these ordinances. And there were also other estates conveyed to the Company in other counties, in Cambridgeshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, and Middlesex, which were transferi-ed to them " for the continuance of a chaplain and a chauntry." I believe when they use the word " continuance," it means maintena,nce. Then we come to the ordinances, and I will take tirst that which relates to who were to be the governing body and under what terms. lamalioutto read from the very ordinances of the founder himself. There are sevei'al chapters here providing for a different subject-matter. This is called the Mercers' charge : "The Hunourable Company of Mercers of London, that is to say, the master and all the wardens, and all the assistants of the fellowship, shall have all the care, charge, rule, and governance of the school, and they shall every year choose of their Company two honest and substantial men, called the surveyors of the school, which, in the name of the whole fellovvship, shall take all the charge and business about the school for that one year." Your Lordships will see from this that the officers desci'ibed as the surveyor-assistant and the surveyor- accountant were not officers so appointed by the body of the Mercers' Company, but were special officers provided under the ordinances of Dean Colet as annual officers for the particular duties which devolved upon them with reference to (90.) A 4 the 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 til May 1865. the school. I mention that because they will be mentioned again, and you ■will nee how they originated, and under what authority. Then I will go to the Mercers' charge ; that is to say, what the company's duties were. \\'e find : " Every year, at the foot of the account, all ordinary charges done, the overplus of money which at this day is externed this, I wholly o-ive to the Fellowship of the Mercery, to the maintaining and supporting; and repayino- of all that longeble to the school, from time to time ; and albeit, my mind isthat they shall have this surplusage for the intent above said ; yet, never- theless, I will the said surplusage, as much as shall be spared of it, above repara- tions and casualties at every account be brought and put in a coifer of iron given of me to the Mercery, standing in their hall, and these from year to year remain apart by itself." Now, my Lords, observe what was the object ; there were no banks in those days, and it seems to have been intended to ascertain what the balance was in the banker's hands, so to speak, "that it may appear how the school by the own self maintaineth itself." They could ascertain that only bv counting the money in this iron coffer, and if there was nothing (there could not be less than nothing) it would appear that it just maintained itself, "and at length over and above the own livelihood," (now come the im- portant words) " if the said school shall grow to any further charge to the Mercery, that then also that may appear to the laud and praise and merit of the said Fellowship ;" distinctly showing that there might be a deficit, and that if there was a deficit it should devolve upon the Mercers' Company to pay it out of their own revenues. That establishes the proposition at law that I have stated to your Lordships, and in wliich I have no fear of being contradicted, that it would be evidence of an absolute right and title to the property itself in the hands of the parties who were subject to that obHgation. That is clear, I think, because obviouslv there would be no laud and praise and merit in merely applying money to its legitimate use by those who were, according to the argu- ment that might be used on the other side, the mere almoners ; therefore it was that I say it was their own money ; they were to take this estate, and did take this estate with its obligations, and by those obligations being undertaken upon their own private behalf, it became their own absolute property. I shall show you that there were deficits from time to time, and that they were absolutely paid out of the funds, which were the piivate means and monies of the mercers, some of them belonging to them as individuals, and others moneys belonging to the Corporation. That there is the " liberty to declare the statutes," that is to say, " not- withstanding the statutes and ordinances before written, in which I have declared my mind and will, yet because in time to come many things may and shall survive and grow by many occasions and causes, which at the making of this hook were not possible to come to mind. In considering the assured truth and circumspect wisdom " (I jiray your Lordships' attention to these words, be- cause these are the gentlemen who are to be superseded), "and faithful good- ness of the most honest and substantial Fellowship of the Merceiy of London, to whom I have committed all the cure of the school, and trusting in their fidelity and love that they have to God and man and to the school, and also believing verily that they shall always dread the great wrath of God, both all this that is said, and all that yet is not said, which hereafter shall come into my mind while I livi', to be said, i leave it wholly to their discretion and charity " (as I have said before, it is no charity that I know of to dispose of other people's property ; it is a charity to give your own), " I mean of the wardens and assistants of the fellowship, with such other council as they shall call into them, good lettered and learned men." I shall show you afterwards that there were the statutes made in accordance witli that ])rovision, and I believe they were honest and learned nu;n, or to follow the words used here, that they were good lettered and learned men. So much, my Lords, as regards the institution, as far as the c;ov(Tning ])ody and the owners of the property, namely, the Mercers' Conipanj-, is concerned. Now let me go, if you please, to the children ; that is to say, to tiie pupils. I will only read siich parts as seem necessai'y- I believe your Lordships have a copy of this ordinance. Lord Lytlellon.'] I think ihc ordinances are all in the report. Mr. Johnson.'] Not the whole of the ordinances, ni}' Lord, I think. There are one SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 9 one or two extracts that are given very imperfectly; one that I shall have to nth May 1865. remark upon is given extremely iii)i)erfectly in the parts I have read ; 1 will not read these ordinances at length ; I will only read such parts as would be matters of narration ; if I did not read them from the ordinances themselves, 1 would prefer having recour^■e to the documentary evidence for what I have to state, and I do not know that I could tell it much shorter, for the language, though quaint, is very concise and expressive : " There shall be taught in the school children of all nations and countries indifferently, to the number of 153 ;" the reason for that is described in some of the documents ; he had, no doubt, in memory the miraculous draught of fishes of that precise number, which is recorded in the New Testament ; T think in St. John's Gospel. " The masters shall admit these children as they be offered from time to time, but first see they can say their Catechism, and also that he can read and write competently, else let him not be admitted in no wise." Therefore we can take this, as we pass along, that the qualification of the carulidate who was to be offered from time to time, and offered by the members of the Company is, that he kens iiis Cate- chism, and can read and write competently. " A child at the first admission once and for ever shall pay fourpence for wi'iting of his name ; this money of the admissions shall the poor scholar have that sweepeth the school and keepeth the school clean.'' I do not know that I need read any more of that for the present ; that shows in point of fact what was the original institution ; what powers were vested in the governing body, and the body as we say, own- ing the property, and what were the qualifications and the number of pupils, the boys who were to be educated there. There is a good deal that I pass over, but now I must just draw your Lordships' attention to what we have appended to this document ; I will not read the lands ; there is a schedule of them setting out what they are and what is their value, that is the lands of the school ; those are appended to the ordinances of the founder. The property is given ; the total amount is 118/. 4 s. / ir 'Iliomas Saynes, one of the wardens, showed that he and 1'homas Baldry had been with Master Dean of Paul's, according as it was agreed at the last Court of Assis- tant.s, and had felt part of his mind for the foundation of his school in Paul's Churchyard, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UULIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 11 Churchyard, whereof he proposetli to make our Company conservators and utli May 18G5. rulers, and desireth not to charge us further than such lands as he shall ^ive us for the luahitenance of the said school may always be sufficient to discliarge us, and the same Master Dean will go unto the Kin/^'s grace and make suit for the mortefying of the lau'l of the said foundation, and at his returning again he will desire to have more eommunicatiou with the Company, wherefore, it is agreed that the said Master Siiynes and Thomas Baldry shall go unto him and know his further pleasure." There was another Court of Assistants holden in the same year, on the IGth of April, "where was showed by Master Thomas Saynes Warden, and Thomas Baldry that they had been with Master Dean of Paul's, and had communication with him for the foundation of the Grammar School which he intended to found and make in Paul's Churchyard, and the said Master Dean was verj^ glad that he might have with us communication thereof in whom he proposeth to put all the rule and governance of the said school, and for that he would the Company should better understand what that he intendeth to put in our hands for the maintenance of the said scliool, and further of his good mind which he beareth unto this fellowship, he de- livered a bill to the said Master Warden and Thomas l^aldry, containing therein the names of certain lands," and so forth : I do not know that I need trouble you with that now; " Item. — His mind is that ye shall be charged to pay within the City of London yearly, 50 /. in such manner as he shall devise. Item — He will that you have for the surveying and paying of the said sum of 20 /. of land within the City of London." " Item — He hath in purpose to do the Mercery further pleasure, with which they shall be content withal, or if the thing that he further intendeth toward them then shall not content them, then his nund is to superadd 10 marks over and beside the said 20 I. either in the country or within London, to bear the foresaid charges and they at length be at a better surety, &.c." That, it appears, never was provided at all, so that in fact there was no equivalent made whatever in absolute payments, and this liability was undertaken solely at the risk of the Comjiany. " Item — When the Compan)" aforesaid had read this foresaid Bill and understood his good mind unto us, they were well content and gave him their thanking, and were also well content to go further with him in the said matter, and after that the articles which he shall draw for the good rule and sure continuance of the said school shall be by us seen and well undei'stood, then we to show him our minds therein." I now pass to the Court of the 15th of June 1512, and that shows that they absolutely accepted this form of charge. " .'\t the same Court it was agreed that master wardens and assistants shall have communication with master dean of Paul's, to conclude with him upon all such articles as shall concern the con- formation of the new school at Paul's, wherewith this fellowship shall be charged, and what thing that the said master warden with the assistants aforesaid shall deem good to be done therein, the whole Company, with one full assent, pro- mised to be content therewith." There the important words are, " wherewith this fellowship shall be charged." Then there was a Court holden on the 17th of June, at which it seems that the Dean himself was present : " 1512. At a Court of Assistants holden the 17th day of June, the year above written. Master Dean of Paul's showed further, and read a book, containing certain articles, wherein he hath expressed the devise of his will to be fulfilled and observed, as well by the schoolmaster in the new school at Paul's, that now and hereafter shall be, as by the children that be or shall be in the same school, and also by the fellowship of Mercery, to whom he hath committed all the rule and governance of all things, that shall appertain to the ordering and charges, that shall be done and borne for the good continuance and conformation of the said school, and them endowed with certain lands and tenements, sufficient to discharge them from all manner of things that shall be needful to the school aforesaid, and when the Company had heard the aforesaid book read, and understood his mind therein in every condition, they gave him great thanking, promising him that the Company will be glad to endeavour themselves to the accoaiplishment of his said will, written in the said book concerning the said school, and the said Dean promised to send hither a copy of the said book, and to the intent, that if anything be to be added or diminished, they may advertise the said Master Dean thereof that it may be redressed." That book contains the ordinances which I have already (90.) B 2 read 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE nth May 1865. read extracts from, and that brings me I think nearly to the same period in ' point of time with reference to the ordinances which I have already read, and with reference to these various entries, showing the negociations and interviews that took place with reference to this matter. There are one or two other matters in the ordinances that I must briefly call your attention to ; that is to say, commending certain parties to the charity of the Company. Earl of Derbi/.~] Is it not your contention that with regard to the original property the matter is suhjudice at the present moment? Mr. Johnson.'] It has been subjudice. Earl of Derby.] And it is not decided at the present moment ? Mr. Johnson.] It is not decided. Earl of Derby.] That, I believe, the Committee have agreed upon. Mr. Johnson.] Then I have to state this to your Lordships. It is against, as I understand, all the policy and principle of Parliament to interfere with private rights, and if this Bill passes our private rights will be absolutely gone ; and therefore I can only ask your Lordships to pause at once upon my satisfying you that this is no chimerical claim. The claim is not one put forward for this purpose ; it is not originated now, but it has been matter of litigation for many years. We only wish it to be decided. I can show your Lordships that these claims have been bona fide made from time to time from time immemorial ; I might almost say, but by some singular coincidence, it has always happened that the decision has been in our favour ; but upon other grounds than the affirmation of the right of the Company. So that we cannot say that there has been any absolute decision of law or equity determining that this is the pro- perty of the Company. Earl of Harrozeby.] Is there anything pending to bring that to an issue ? j\Ir. Jo/imon.] I believe not, my Lord. Chairman.] The Lord Chancellor declined to give a decision upon so large a question, it being a collateral issue, did he not ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord. I do not know how we are to bring the matter forward, we have no power whatever of doing so. Whenever the question has been raised against us we have insisted upon our right. Lord Houghton.] W^ould not the effect of this Bill be to decide the question one way or the other ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord, that is vvhat we complain of. Lord Houghton.] You said you were very anxious for a decision of some kind or other? Mr. Johnson.] But it must be a legal decision. What I say is this : we claim to have a right to this property, but of course it would be idle for me to come before you with a mere imaginary title and say I claim this property ; that would he like a Quaker saying, I insist upon it that I am not bound to pay church rates. In answer to that, the magistrates always say you must show us some good reason for that exemption ; by merely afhrming a title you cannot enforce it or render it valid. Earl of Ifarrovjhi/.] You ask us not to deal with the question at all, and yet you appear to think it necessary to go into (juestions of detail with respect to your rights. ISIr. .Jiihnaon.] If your Lordships will tell me at any period of my argument that you will exclude tlu' Company I represent from the operation of tliis Bill, I shall retire immediiitely. But 1 submit to your Lordships tlmt to subject us to thc! operation of the Bill would be a positive divesting of all our rights of property without one having an opjjortunity of having our claims determined by any of the regular tribunals of the country. Chairman.] It seems to us that you are rather going into points which we are nfithcr conijjctcnt to deal with nor entitled to decide upon, and upon which also any decision wc might arrive at would be one that you would not be satisfied with SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 13 with, and which you began by saying had always been avoided by Committees mli May 1865. of Pailiament. Mr. Johnson.'] Quite so ; I do not know of a case where there has been a title in dispute in whicli a Committee of either House of Parhament lias taken upon itself to determine the rights in conflict. It is not an express determination, but an incidental one in this case. Earl of Harrotvbi/.] All you have to show is, that what the Bill proposes to do would be inconsistent with the rights of property if tliose rights are in you. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord ; that I shall be able to show. Earl of Dtvon.] And also that would determine points which are at present in conflict. Mr. Johnson.] That is what I have said. Earl of Harrowby.] Incidentally, you mean. Mr. Johnson.] I do not know whether it would not be expressly. I have nearly concluded what I wished to state to your Lordships upon this point ; I wanted to show you that when the points were actually raised by absolute questions in litigation, they have been passed by, and the go-bye has been given to them, not from any fault of ours, but because of our assailants having failed from other causes to make good their case. Chairman.] You see in the report of the Commission it is suggested that these recommendations shall be deferred until the legal question is definitely settled. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, but the Bill does not provide for that. Chairman.] It seems to me that you are arguing a question upon which we have not to give a decision. Mr. Johnson.] But the Bill does not in tiny way provide for deferring this question. If this was an Act instead of a Bill, my property would be gone and then it would be too late for me to come for any redress. Earl of Hurrowby.] You have to show that what is proposed is inconsistent with the rights of property. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, and in order to do that, I must show the right of pro- perty in the first place. Earl of Harrowby.] Could not we take that for granted. Mr. Jolmson.] I am content if you take it so ; I can have no objection to that ; I should like a decision in my favour at the eaiiiest possible pei'iod. Earl of Harrowby.] But you have to show that what is proposed is incon- sistent with the rights of property. Mr. Johnson.] But in order to induce your Lordships' to exclude me from the Bill on the ground that I have rights of property, I am bound to show that I have rights of property. Earl of Harrowby.] The Royal Commissioners themselves say that you have, do they not. Mr. Johnson.] No, all they say is this, that we have claimed a right ; they do not affirm the title in any way, nor do they practically at all postpone the consideration of the case, nor have they introduced any saving clause that would protect us. They propose to legislate affirmatively. The words they use with regard to the rights of property are, " According to their own view " (of course that is nothing, that is mere claim), " the Mercer's Company are beneficially interested in the surplus revenues of this property after maintainina: the school." Earl of Harrowby.] They distinctly admit that the question is so doubtful that they would not propose legislation under the circumstances. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, but legislation is not only proposed, but is actually taking place ; and unless I am heard now, I shall be too late to ask for redress. (90.) u 3 Earl 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE iithMaj 1865. Earl Grauvilk.] 1 think this is worth the attention of tlie learned Counsel. I understand he makes, on behalf of the Company, a claim to this property ; he does not state that that claim has ever been judiciously decided, he says, that the claim exists. I understand from reading the Report of the Commis- sioners, that they admit that that claim does exist, therefore, I think that that part of the learned counsel's argument is svxperfluous, if he is going to ))rove that the claim exists, it would be open to him, and he will be perfectly at liberty to show us, that claim existing, that it is not competent for Parliament to deal with the question until that claim is decided; but 1 think he is losing time if he goes on proving that the Company have a claim which is admitted on all hands. Lord Lyttelton.'] The fact that a claim exists as a legal claim which has been raised, is enough for us. Mr. JoImsD/i.] If I have your Lordships' assurance that this is treated as a bona fide claim on the part of the Company, and one that always has existed, I do not know that I need urge the matter further. 1 am quite prepared to show at much greater length, or, at all events by reference to many more documents, that we have a right; that it is more than a claim ; and I may add, it your Lordships could constitute yourselves a legal tribunal, you would decide in my favour, I have no doubt, before I left the room. However, all I ask is, that you should say that I have satisfied you as far as I have gone, that there is a bond fide claim on the part of the Company. Lord Bishoj) of Lnndo}l^^ Is there any possibility of this question ever being decided in a court of law r Mr. Johnson.'] We cannot raise it. Lord Bishop of London.'] Is there any possibility of its ever being decided ? Mr. Johnson.'] I think the Charity Commissioners might do it. As some noble Lords appear to be surprised that we are here after this Report of the Commissioners and the recognition it contains of our claim as an existing claim, I may mention again what, I think, I have said ah-eady, that the Report is directly inconsistent with the Bill, because the Report says that so long as this is an undetermined question, it would be premature to bring it under the attention of the Legislature, and yet it is under the attention of the Legislature in the present Bill. I^ord Bishop of London.] I tliink what we want to be assured is, that it is not to be an undetermined question to the end of the world ; in what way can it ever be settled r Mr. Dickinson.] I think I can tell your Lordships in what position the matter stands. Formerly, until the establishment of the Charity Commission, any two persons might })ut the Attorney General in motion to get any ques- tions relating to charities determined ; but now that cannot be done, except by the sanction of the Charity Commissioners. The fact of this claim existing has been before the Charity Commissioners for many years, and they have not thouglit i)roper to cause any proceedings to be taken, but they can do so if they choose. Earl of Devon.] Do I understand you to object to the recommendations of the Reports, as well as to the provisions of the Bill, as both affecting your pending claim ? Mr. Johnson.] Undoubtedly, my Lord. Chairman.] I think it is right to observe that the understanding we have come to is only to hear one counsel upon each case. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord, but I may observe that it was only as am'iens n/;/./' that my learned friend interposed; it was not in the way of argument at all. The counsel and parties are directed to withdraw. Alter some time the counsel and parties are again called in. Chairman.']^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 15 Chairmrui.'] Mr. Johnson, the Committee do not think it necessary that you nth May 18G5. should tr()uV)le yourself further to enter any further into the question of the claim, 'rhey are prejjared to deal with tlie question u|)on the; assumption for the sake of argument (for of coiu'se you know we admit what you began by sayiuii', that this is not a tiil)unal either competent or entitled to decide the question of title) that the (;laims of the Mercers' Company are established, and we will therefore reijuest you to confine your observations to such points as ■will arise on the supposition of tiiis admission, and also to whether, if the governing body reniiiined the same, objection would be taken to tln' clauses of the Bill. Earl of Derby.] To anything in the clauses ? Lord Bishyp of London.] It would bo better to say to the rest of the Bill. Lord T^yttelton.] Do the company admit an obligation in the nature of a trust as to the original directions, and those only of Dean Colet's will f Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord, we admit that the obligations imposed upon us by the founders are a condition we are bound to fulfil. Lord Lyttelton.] Are you trustees to that extent f Mr. Ju/in.son.] No, we are not trustees of the estates at all. Lord Li/ttelton.] Of no part of the estates ? Mr. Johnson.] Of no part of the estates. Earl of Derby ] You contend that, subject to fulfilling those conditions, you are absolute proprietors of the estates ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord. Lord Lyttelton.] Of the whole of the estates ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes. Earl of Derby.] What the Committee wish is this : that, supposing it is the case that you are absolute proprietors in the sense in which you claim to be, will you show in what manner the Bill interferes with any portion of your rights as such proprietors ? Mr. Johnson.] Assuming that the governing body remain as they are ? Lord Lyttelton.] Assuming the whole of your claim, how does the Bill affect you r Mr. Johnson.] The legal claim affects the estates; the personal claim of course affects the governing body, and the Bill affects the whole of the estates ; those which have been subsequently acquired and devoted by the governing body to the purposes of utility, to education. The Bill affects the whole of those estates, and transfers the property. Earl of Derhij.] Just so; you contend that the property being vested in the existing governing body, it would be a violation of the rights of that property to transfer the management of it to any other governing body. Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord. Earl of Derby.] Then we wish you first to direct your attention to the question as to the provisions of the Bill, with reference to the governing body, being an interference with that right, and next, supposing the governing body to remain unaltered, and thereby the property to remain in preciselv the same officers, are you prepared to object to the clauses which enable the governing body, that body continuing the same, to pass statutes and to make other regulations, do you object to the other provisions of the Bill, assuming the governing body to remain unaltered. Mr. Johnson.] I think not, I may answer for myself at any rate ; 1 am hardly prepared to say what my clients' views are at this moment. Earl of Harroivby.] Do you contend that your claim being admitted, you be- come so entirely a private school that you ought not to be subjected to the provisions of the Bill at all. Lord Lyttelton.] Do you desire to be omitted from the Bill on the same (90-) B 4 grounds 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE nth May 1865. grounds as those upon which, as you are probably aware the Merchant Taylors' School has been omitted. I\Ir. Johnson.] No, what 1 shall be prepared to admit is this, first of all deal- ing with the property, we say that belongs to the Clompany at large, assuming those to be no transfer or any disturbance of the right of property to begin with, and assuming; in next place the governing body, which is a section of tlie Company, to remain identically the same, 1 am not prepared to say that there are not advantages that might be gained by the provisions of tliis Bill, because it might be that for the purpose of carrying out the objects of the charity, or trust^ or whatever it might be ( I do not mean when I use these words to recog- nise at all a trust, but 1 speak of it as a matter in their own hands and within their own discretion) they might have power conferred upon them through the medium of tliis Bill which they do not possess now and that might be advantageous. Earl of Harrowby.'] You would ask, under those circumstances, to be admitted within the benefit of the Bill ? Mr. Johnson.'] Yes, my Lord ; I should not object to it for a moment ; the enabling clauses I am content at once to admit might be beneficial ; I think myself they would be. Earl of Dc)-hy.~\ Proceeding upon the basis that you have the right of pro- perty, the Committee wish you to direct your ai'gument to showing them that the Bill does affect those rights by the transfer of the property or otherwise r Mr. Johnson.] I assume the rights of property at present to remain as they are. Chairman.] For the sake of argument? Mr. Johnson.] Yes, for the sake of argument ; and then, I suppose, I have to assume a new governing body ; am I to assume that ? Earl of Derby.] The Bill, of course, gives a new governing body. Mr. Johnson.] Am I to deal with that ? Earl of Derby.] Yes ; against that you argue ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes ; against that I say that the effect of this will be to create a tru|it in the b;ick-grouii(l, and not be a part of the administrative body, but they will be tiiose who are the oldest members, and the best acquainted with all the inci- r of Arts." Then he goes on, stei)])ing over a few lines, "That the schoolmaster and his successors for ever shall have the said mansion-house, with the appurtenances, to dwell in without anything to be pjiid therefor." Then he directs that the school shall always be called "Thc^ Free School of Lawrence Sheriff, of London, Grocer." 1 believe your Lordships are well aware that the term "grammar," has been held not to be confined in any way to English grammar, but to mean the teaching of Latin and (Jreek. But if it had not been held so, the fact of the founders providing that there should be a master of arts employed for the teaching SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 29 teachino- of this school, would lead one to imagine that he contemplated much ij^t h May 186 5. more than the mere teachinfj;- of 1^'uglish gi-ammar. But it has been judicially determined, and in the Grammar School Act, it is noticed that the term " grammar " does mean the teaching of Latin and Greek. Then after pro- viding rhat the premises are to be kept in good repair and so forth, Mr. Lawrence Sherriff goes on to say what shall be done after his decease. I think I need not trouble you with any more of that document. It shows exactly what the ob- ject of the founder was. All 1 need add to that is, that that intent has up to the present time been strictly carried out. It is true we have from time to time had the details altered by private Acts of Parliament, to which I shall have to call your Lordships' attention, but substantially it has always been carried out from that time. Then, my Lords, that deed was a deed executed biter vivos. The founder, Lawrence Sherriff, subsecpiently by his will, devised certain real estates to the same trustees, to be held by them upon the same trusts as were declared by his deed. Those trusts, therefore, apply both to the land which he left and to that ■which he conveyed. That land was situated in London, it was about eight acres in extent, and was at that time of comparatively small value, but in process of time its value increased, and now the net income of the estate, whicli was, I believe, at that time about 250 /., is now something over 6,000 /. And it is with that 6,000 1., that in point of fact your Lordships have now to deal. Lawrence Sherriff having that devise by his will, which I have now stated to your Lordship, died, I think, in 1567, the year after the foundation of this school ; it was within a very short time after he made his will. After his death, for some time, in con- sequence first of all of the smallness of the fund, and in consequence also of a good deal of litigation taking place, because his relatives did not approve of his leaving his land in that way, little was heard of the school for nearly a century. But in the year 1748, a private Act of Parliament was brought in, suggested in point of fact by an inquisition. I ought, perhaps, to have stated that, before the passing of this Act, an inquisition was directed to certain persons in Warwick- shire, and an inquiry was entered into by them with respect to the school, and then in lieu of two trustees who had been appointed by the will of the founder, 12 persons, gentlemen, in Warwickshire, were aj)pointed the trustees, and in them the estates were vested. In the twenty-first year of George the Second, 1748, an Act of Parliament was brought in, which Act is entitled, " An Act for Raising Money out of an Estate in the County of Middlesex, given by Lawrence Sherriff" for the Found- ing and Maintaining a School and Almshouses at Rugby, in the County of Warwick, to be applied in Rebuilding the said School, or Purchasing one or more Messuage or Messuages," and so forth. The simple effect of that Act was to enable the feoffees, or trustees appointed under the inquisition I have mentioned to sell certain portions of the estate, and to grant leases of the estates, in order to raise certain sums of money for rebuilding the school- houses, which were then in a dilapidated state. That was done, and the money was laid out accordingly, as appears by the different documents which are in the possession of the Petitioners. Then there was another Act of Parliament to which 1 shall have to call your attention a little more fully. It is the Act of the seventeenth of (ieorge the Third ; the date of it is 1777- This Act, in truth, is an Act which enacted cer- tain orders, rules, and ordinances for the management of the school, and under those rules and orders the scb.ool has ever since been conducted. The Act was entitled, " An Act to enable the Feoffees and Trustees of an Estate in the County of Middlesex, given by Lawrence Sherriff', for the Founding and Main- taining a School and Almshouses at Rugby, iu the County of Warwick, to sell part of the said EstatC; or to grant Leases thereof, or of any Part thereof, and to effectuate the other Purposes therein mentioned." It then recites the deed of the founder and his will, and it also gives a statement of what the property consisted of at the time of his death, and how it had been dealt with subse- quently. Then there are various clauses, which I need not trouble you with, for raising the money and applying it, when borrowed, for the purposes of the school exclusively. It was either to rebuild or to repair, or to add, by purchase, to that property which the founder had left in Rugby, and in the neighbour- hood, for the purposes of the school. I may add, that the suras of money from time to time raised under these Acts of Parliament, and laid out for the (90.) D 3 benefit 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 12th May iSG'i ^y as it exists at this moment. I was going to do that, in the hope that, unless there is any very paramount reason to the contrary, when you find so very good a system actually in existence, you will not disturl) it. The Commissioners say, at page 265, with reference to the trustees (I do not think that is a matter of very great im- portance) : " There is a tendency in the very principle of election " (that is, of the trustees of Rugby School) •' which was adojjted " (too strong for any per- missive words which may admit a wide and more varied choice) " to give such a Board something of an liereditary, and something also of a territorial and provincial character. Nor do we hesitate to say that in such conditions we discern some advantages. The territorial qualificati'.ins secures a high and even useful type of character for such an office, thovtgh the general guarantees which it :iffor(ls for perfect integrity, and for knowledge of th(; i)rinclples on which projjerty should be managed, through the facility of access given by it to local opinion and information, and through the variety of (ixperience gained in similar })hu!es of education which it brings together. Of the hereditary tendency also it may he said that it increases the interest which each trustee feels in his position, by opening an additional source of pride in the welfare and fame of the institution over which he presides. Of these good qualities the school has had SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 41 had the benefit. The property appears to have been managed with a fair mea- 12th May 18G5, sure of prudence, at no unreasonable expense, and with the most scrupulous "" personal integrity. The increasing revenue, too, was well saved and well spent ; and if it is possible to descry any decline in the circumspection and sagacity which has directed any part of tlie outlay of income in the last 40 years, this seems traceable to a disposition, liberal towards the teachers of the school, and confiding in the judgment of the head master." On the next page of the Report the Commissioners say, " Ever since the last re-constitution of the governing body, and the last limitation of its powers and duties, the school has been developed to a degree which approaches metamor- phosis. It has risen from the position of a provincial school to that of a public school, and in efliciency and general reputation is second to none. Its scholars have twice in the present century reached a number that has jjlaced it next in rank to Eton. It has become, in fact, a national institution, as being a place of education and a source of influence for the whole kingdom. In all points it has long since outgrown the area from which the trustees are now taken." Then the Report says immediately afterwards, with regard to the trustees, " But we are unwilling to recommend a measure which could possibly have the effect of lessening that sense of unity and that perfect degree of fellow feeling which may have hitherto accompanied the proceedings of a body, the mem- bers of winch now owe their common relation, as colleagues, entirely to their confidence in and good opinion of each other." There are other passages which show that nothing can be better than the position in which the school rinds itself with respect to tlie different classes that are there. And 1 need not trouble your Lordships with reading any more extracts from that part of the evidence I have read, which shows, that in the opinions of the masters, and also in the opinion of the persons called upon to give evidence, there is no objection what- ever, practically, to the amalgamation of the different classes who now form the schools. I would, therefore, submit, my Lords, that when you have found that to have existed for so many years with such beneficial results, it ought only to be a matter of veiy grave and serious importance that should induce your Lordships now to alter that state of things ; and I think that you would not find in the Report of the Commissioners anything which can lead your Lordships to think that there are circumstances which ought to induce a violation, if I may so say, of the prin- ciples upon which these charities have been held. The question suggests itself, what is the object of this alteration ? The object of this alteration, that is to say, the object of getting rid of the foundation and of the rights of free educa- tion can only be to put those funds into the pockets of somebody else, or rather that you should employ funds clearly and distinctly granted for one purpose, to the benefit of another class of persons. There may be reasons, possibly, why such a violation of what we generally consider right, should take place, but it is not so here. There is no reason given in the Report of the Commis- sioners for that change ; and I cannot conceive that the Commissioners could have thought when they simply recommended getting rid of gratuitous education that the effect of it was to take money which was given for the benefit of the poor and humble class, and to use it for the benefit of the rich and wealthier class, because, though the alteration was never intended, no doubt, for that purpose, that is the result of it. Chairman.'] That was not at all the intention of the Commissioners, I can assure you. They felt that all the leading places of education have now opened, or are opening, their foundations ; all the foundations of the Colleges at Oxford are now open to public competition ; Eton is open, Winchester is open, and if Rugby remains closed, it must greatly suffer in the competition which there is between public schools. And, so far from the throwing open of a foundation and giving scholarships and exhibitions upon competition being a benefit to the rich, it is the poorer classes of persons who are seeking for a classical, education who are more likely to benefit by it than the rich ; that has always been so. Mr. Coltrel!.] Yes, my Lord, but you will bear in mind that these two schools of Rugby and Harrow stand upon a very different footing from most of the others ; almost all the rest of the public schools have had what you may call a pubhc foundation ; for instance, Winchester and Eton were formerly parts of monastic institutions; they were a sort of offshoot, as it were, of a (90.) F public 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 12th May 1865. public body; and the same with tlie schools which are of Royal foundation. Now I can quite understand that where a school has simply been founded by one of the Kings or Queens, the object thei'e might be to benefit all classes of society. But I would call your attention to the fact tliat this is a very dif- ferent case from that. This is strictly a private foundation ; it is a foundation established by a private individual for a local purpose. In further answer to your Lordship's observation, I may be permitted to say that the inhabitants of Rugby are quite ready, and quite willing, and quite anxious that there should be open scholarships nnd exhibitions. They fully concur in the view that that would be extremely advantageous. They think it would be very advantageous to bring boys from north, south, east, and west, of superior ability, with whom their own may compete. All they object to is, that they should not have a share in it ; and what I submit is, that without interfering in any way with the general principles of this Act, Clause 2 1 should be struck out, and that there should be a saving clause inserted in the Act that will guard most rigidly the rights and interests of the foundation under the will of their founder. The Lord Bisho]) of Loudon. '\ It has been alleged that there is no real differ- ence, in point of social position or in point of property, between those who are resident in Rugby and receive the benefits of the foundation, and those who are boarders ; that, in point of fact, house-rent in Rugby is so high, that it does away with the real benefit for poor persons; can you at all throw auy light upon that subject ? Mr. CottrelL] Yes. \Yith your Lordships' permission, I will bring forward a gentleman as a witness who will give every information upon that subject, founded upon the rate-books ; of course you cannot go and ask the persons what their incomes are ; there is a difficulty in that ; but if you find that the rateage of a house is very low, you may fairly assume that the rent of the house is small, and that the owner of the house is a person of comparatively small means ; but I shall show by better evidence, namely, the evidence of a builder, who can speak to the cost of the houses erected at Kugby, that they do not pay more than 6 per cent., being a great deal less than the rents in Lon- don and other places. The witnesses will give information upon that point. In every respect, I believe it is a great mistake to suppose that the house-rent iX Rugby is very high. There is one point that I will call your Lordships' attention to upon that, which is this ; I wish to show the importance of the matter as regards the pro- perty in the neighbourhood. I need not tell you that people have for the last 200 years bought and sold property, and built houses at Rugby. They have done so upon the faith, at any rate during the last 50 or 60 years, that that which was given to them 300 years ago by Mr. Lawrence Sheriff, and confirmed to them by Acts of Parliament, would continue. And consequently property has been bought and sold upon the assumption that there was attached to that pro- perty the very valuable privilege of sending children to Rugby School. The result has been that people have given 20 per cent, more for the property than they otherwise would have done. The converse of that will be, that if the privilege be done away with, the value of the property will fall to that extent. But 1 was not going to dwell uj)on that so nmch as upon this as a question of great importance. I should mention to your Lordships the local burdens which have been occasiom d by the school. Rugby was extremely badlv drained some time ago, and it became, at the time when the Loi'd Bishop of London was at Rugby, a matter of very great importance that the drainage should 1)(' improved. The school authorities mooted the question, and after a great deal of troubles had been taken to tluit end, the result was that no less a sum than 30,000 /. was laid out upon the drainage of Rugby. That sum was burrowi (I, and is now a charge upon the rates. Of course the school would only bear its fair jn-oportion of that expense, but at the same time there is no question that it was in consequence of the existence of the school there that that was done, and as a collateral matter, and a matter of small importance, that is a (juestion to lie considered. Now, my Lords, I will say one word upon the question of the different class of i)er.-oiis who now claim the benefit of this education. It seems to have l)een taken lor granted by the Connnissioners, rather than proved, that for a great number SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 43 number of years (I may almost say until lately) this was a mere villaij^e school ; 12th May 18C5. that is not the ease. A gentleman who has gone into the questions very fully — is present here, and from his researches it <'ipj)ears that so long ago as the year 1642, when a petition was presented, there were no less than nine score families ■who not only had the benefit of that education, but who claimed at that time to be entitled to vote upon the election of the master. 1 suppose the trustees did not give themselves much trouble upon that matter, and consequently the inhabitants who considered themselves interested in the school voted in their own person (not a very unreasonable thing to do either). But somebody objected to a person who had been elected, and this petition was presented in 1642. It is a j)etition setting forth that although nine score families had held up their hands for the election of one schoolmaster, somebody had not allowed him to act ; you see that there were nine score families at that time who occupied Rugby, and had the benefit of the school. But more than that, Rugby was at the time of its foundation a market town ; it was a market town in the time of Mr. Lawrence SherrifF, and consequently it was never a mere agricultural village, and as 1 have had occasion to remark to your Lordships the style of education has not been altered, certainly more than might be reasonably expected in the number of years that have elapsed since the foundation of the school; because you will remember that the word "gram- mar " signified Greek and Latin ; up to the present time it has been very little altered, indeed, in that respect. But it never was a simple village school, be- cause it was used by, and the advantages of it were given to, persons of very great wealth, and standing as long as 200 years ago in the county. There were many families who are still living in the county who had at that lime the benefit of the education. I trust that under these circumstances your Lordships will look favourably upon the case of my clients, and not allow section 21, or any of the provisions of the Bill which really abolish the foundation system, to pass into law. Earl of Derby.'] Your clients do not propose to raise any objection to the schedule which constitutes a new governing body for Rugbv. Mr. CottreU.~] No, we do not mean to do that at all; I only call your Lord- ships' attention to this, which ma) be a matter of detail rather than anything else, that you have not merely to deal with a school but also with a charity in the strictest sense of the word ; and yet Parliament by this Bill divests the estate out of the trustees in whom it is now vested, and gives that estate to the governing body. There are certain provisions in the Act that apply to the sim- ple case of the trustees, assuming them to be the governing body for the school purposes, but to carry out which they must also become trustees for the charitable purposes. 1 may instance Clause 22 in the Act, by which a scheme is to be brought before the Queen in Council, and so on. That would be a purely educational scheme. 1 imagine you could not in that way bring forward a scheme for regulating the charity part of this fund. I doubt whether you would not find that it would be upon the whole better to leave that as its stands. But my clients think upon every matter with the exception of this question of doing away with the gratuitous education, that whatever will be for the benefit of Rugby School must be for their benefit, and they most gladly submit to and most cheerfully acquiesce in any such change. MATTHEW HOLBEACH BLOXAM, Esq., is called in ; and Examined M. H. Bloxaw, by Mr. Cottrell, as follows : ■^«9- 1 . YOU were, I believe, born in Rugby ? I was. 2. Will you state to the Committee when you went to Rugby School, and at what age, and under what circumstances ? I was one of six brothers ; we were the sons of one of the masters of Rugby School, and we all went into the Rugby School at an early age ; one of my brothers went at the age of five, another at the age of six, two at the age of seven, and I went myself at the age of eight. I was there eight years ; I went (90.) F 2 into 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M. H. Bloxam, into the lowest foi'm, and was the last boy in the school when I went in. We Esq. were exceedingly well grounded. The Rev. Dr. John Slade, who went from i-2th MaT'iSSj. *^^ ^^^'' ^°"^ ^* Rugby to be the head master of St. Paul's School in London, was then our master. In all cases, the boys went from the nursery into the school, and they were exceedingly well grounded. I left three years before I otherwise should have done, because I went into a profession, and not to the University ; but two of my brothers who were foundationers, gained fellowships at Oxford, after examinations, and my third brother obtained a scholarship there. 3. Your father was a master ? My father was a master for 40 years. 4. Chairman^ At the school ? Yes, at the school at Rugby. 5. Mr. Cottrell.] And you and your family have continued to reside there ever since ? I have continued to reside there ever since. 6. Personally, have you any family at the school ? No, I have not ; I have no personal interest in it ; but I have been connected by family ties with the school, now for 8.5 successive years. 7. Chairman.'] What is your profession ? My profession is that of a solicitor. My father was 64 years a member of Rugby School in different capacities. My brother-in-law, who was a master at his death, succeeded him in the fellowship ; therefore, I have been connected in that way for 85 years with the school. 8. Mr. Cottrell^ I think you said you had brothers ; how many brothers had you ? I am one of six. q. Were your five brothers educated in the same way as yourself ? Yes. 10. Chairman.l Did they all go into the school at the same age as yourself? They all went at an earlier age than I did ; they entered from the age of five to the age of seven. From the year 1794, when the ages of the boys were put down, to 1807, during the mastership of Dr. Inglis, there were 394 boys ad- mitted. Of those there were 35 who went out of the nursery at the age of between five and eight years, that is to say, the number at five, six, and seven years of age was 35. 11. There are no boys admitted at that age now, I think. I think not. 12. Earl of Derby ^ Is there any regulation respecting the age of admission now, and if so, what is it ? There are the regulations of the trustees of Rugby School in 1794, and they state that a foundationer will not be admitted after the ago of 14 years. That sliows that they wished them to be admitted at an earlier age than that, because boys are not entitled to benefits of the foundation by those regulations if they are admitted after the age of 14. I believe the practice of the ])resent day is that man}- foundationers ai*e admitted after that age, because they do not like to have them young. 1 3. Is there any minimum of age fixed ? I believe not. 14. Chairman.'] I do not think any boys go under 12 now; I do not know whether they take them ? I should think very few ; but I can hardly speak as to that point. The foundationers intermix, and have always, since my knowledge of the school (and I went to seliool 52 years ago), intermixed with the now foundationers, and have always been on the best of terms with them ; there has been no jealousy whatever. 15. Earl of Prtw/.s-.] Was the abolition of the very young classes gradual, or was it done suddenly ? We SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. l] 45 We can only judge of the eaiiy practice from the date at which the ages of M.II.Bloxam, the boys first appear in the school register, and that is the year 1794 ; we can -^*?- hardly go to an earlier period than that. But, speaking from my own know- ^_^^]^ May iSCr ledge of Rugby, even the non-foundationers used to (;ome there from out of the .. nursery. 16. Duke of Marlhoro7igh .1 Are you aware whether the proportion of trades- men's sons who are foundationers has been on the increase or decrease ? I should say that it has continued much the same, as far as my knowledge extends. 1 7. Lord Lytteltoii.'] Do you know how many children of tradesmen there are there now ? I believe there are 14 ; I am not quite sure. 1 8. Fourteen out of about 500 ? There are 70 foundationers ; but 14 of them are tradesmen's sons. 19. Chairman.'] Your impression was that that class of boys was annually decreasing, if I understood you rightly ? I think not. Another thing I may be allowed to say is, tha,t I find a very great improvement in the manners and bearing of the children of the tradespeople who go to the school. One of them, the son of a small tradesman, has risen to be now the head master of the Grammar School at Manchester. We cp.n men- tion also the great patron of Dr. Samuel Johnson, namely, Mr. Edward Cave; he was the son of a publican at Rugby. We had Peter Whalley, who was the editor of the " Histoiy of Northamptonshire " and also the Head Master of Christ's Hospital ; he was the son of a tradesman at Rugby. 20. Lord Lyttelton.] Do you mean Dr. Jalicote ? No. I mean the head master of Christ's Hospital, Peter Whalley ; he lived in the last century. We had also Charles Cart, the historian ; he was a founda- tioner at Rugby. 21. Duke of Marlborough.] If these are the advantages which the trades- men's children derive from being on the foundation, can you give any reason why there are not more tradesmen's sons on the foundations at present ? I believe the reason is this, that 26 years ago the foundationers, especially in the lower forms, were so treated, and their education was neglected in such a way, that they were virtually driven away fi-om the school. 22. Chairman.'] When was this ? In the year 1839, in Dr. Arnold's time ; he did all he could virtually to drive away the foundationers from the school, and we had a decision of the Master of the Rolls upon it. 23. Duke of Marlborouffh^ You are speaking now of the foundationers in the lower forms ? In the lower forms. 24. Do I understand you to mean by that, then, that the higher forms are not suitable for the foundationers ? No, not at all ; the higher forms are very well suited for them. 25. Can you assign any reason why the higher forms at present in existence in the school, from which the foundationers, if they chose, could derive an advan- tage, are not more used by the tradesmen's children at Rugby ? I think you will find a fair proportion in those forms ; I do not know that they are not used by them. 26. Should you say that the number of 14 was a fair proportion for all the tradesmen's children in Rugby ? I can hardly tell. 27. Lord Bisliop of London.] Of course for a tradesman's son who was in- tended to be a tradesman, the education he would receive at a public school in Latin and Greek and so on would not be such as would suit him for his posi- tion? I do not know that. I have observed that it has suited them very well ; they have been all the better for an education of that kind. (90.) F 3 28. Is 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M. H. Bloxam, 28. Is not it the fact that while those clever boys who rise in society, like the _ *^* head master you have mentioned, would, of course, go on into higher forms, the 13th May 1865. others would naturally go on into trade, and that, for that purpose, a com- mercial education would be preferable ? They would leave Rugby at an early period, as I did myself. I left Rugby at 16 years of age ; had 1 stayed until 19 I might have been at the head of the school. « 29. I mean as regards those who are going into trade ; it would not be an advantage to them to read Greek plays, would it ? I have conversed with several of them, and they have stated to me that it has been of very great advantage to them in after life. 30. Confining ourselves to the tradespeople, do you not think that they would prefer such a school as has been proposed, a really good economical school, 10 getting a smattering of Latin and Greek on the lower forms, and never going on thoroughly to master those languaoes ? I believe not. I am pretty well conversant with the feelings of thp trades- people in Rugby, and I believe that they would prefer to have the school, as it now stands, with the lower lorms well attended to. 3 1 . They naturally would prefer that, of course, for the sake of keeping all the other foundationers ; but for the sake of their own children, do you think that they would prefer that they should learn imperfectly a certain amount of the rudiments of Latin and Greek to their having a thoroughly good com- mercial education ? I think they would ; I think they would prefer that the school should be as it now exists rather than that another sliould be established separate from it. 32. Earl of De?'hy.] I understand j^ou to say that the lower classes have been to a great degree discontinued ; I mean such classes as were suitable for children of five, six, or seven years old, and that consequently the foundationers, when they came at the age of 13 years, were less capable of entering into the higher school than they would otherwise have been i Yes, I think so. 33. That the lower class of education contemplated, for mere children, by the founder, bus been practically abandoned. It has been in a great measure. 34. Lord Houglil.on.'] In what way would you explain your statement that what Dr- Arnold did rather tended to drive that class out of the school f He appointed for the education of the lower form a Swiss gentleman, who could not speak English ; at least, he could not speak English well, and the lower form used to laugh at him, in ridicule at his broken English. And he also appointed the writing master, or rather the assistant master, to teach the lower forms Latin : that gentleman, I believe, had never opened a Latin book in his life ; and there were other mea!^ures, which tended in the same direction. Jt went before the Master of the Rolls, and was fully argued there ; and the Master of the Rolls gave his decision, and the trustees then had to appoint other masters. 35. Do you mean that Dr. Arnold tried to degrade the education of that part of the school ? He did ; it is on record. "^iy. Cli(iirma)i.'\ Do we understand you rightly, that you think a strictly classi- cal education, in the fullest meaning of the word, comprising the study of Latin and Greek composition verses, and so forth, recjuiring, as it does now at public schools, that a boy should remain imtil he is 18 or 19, in order to perfect him- self in them, is the education that tin; tradesmen of Rugby desire for their sons in preference to any other? Yes, 1 believe it is ; I believe I am speaking their sentiments when I say that it is. 37. Earl Stanhope] "J'hey prefer it to what is called a commercial school ? Yes. 38. Chairvi(in.'\ They prefer it to sueli a school as that which Dr. Temple pro- poses in his report, in which Latin would not be superficially taught, but well taught ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 47 taught ; where French would be taught, aiul a certain amount of mathematics as M. U. liloxam, well as arithmetic, giving an education which should enable a boy to leave scliool ^^1- at an earlier age than is expedient at the great school,where he must stay a certain ^^th May 1865. time to perfect himself in the classics r But in the great school they are taught not only Latin, but also French and the modern languages. 39. Earl of Harrowhy.'] With regard to the 14 tradesmen's children you speak of, are any of those children going into their fathers' businesses, or are they going into professions ? That I cannot say. 40. From your experience, can you say whether there are many of those who are engaged in trade employments in Iiugby who have been at Rugby School ? Yes ; there are several, some of tliem are in this very room now. 41. Lord Lytlelton.A Does that preference which you believe to exist on the part of some parents for the school as it is, on the whole depend as much upon the social position and advantage which their children get, as upon the general course of instruction ? I think so, certainly. 42. Earl of Harrowhy .] At what age do those children leave Kugby who are not going into the learned professions ? There are regulations by which, unless they get into a certain form by a certain age, they must leave the school. I cannot fell you the precise age at which they must leave. 43. I want to know when it is that those who leave to go into the active business of life at once habitually leave the school. I am speaking somewhat at random, but I should say it would be at 15 or 16. 44. Earl Stanhope.] What constitutes residence for this purpose; if a gentleman comes to settle at Rugby, how soon can he send his children to the school as foundationers r He must have a two years' residence. 45. Duke of Marlborovgh.'] Has it not been extended to four years ? 1 have not heard of it, but there have been many rules and regulations of the trustees which are not promulgated, just as many of the orders in Chancery are not. 46. Earl Stanhope.'] As a resident at Rugby, are you not aware how the case stands ? No ; I always understood that the time was two years. Mr. Cottrell states that there is a bye-law of the trustees fixing two years as the necessary term of residence. 47. Earl oi Dtvon.] I wish to ask you one question upon another point; I believe besides the foundationers and the non- foundationers there are at Rugby a class of boys who are called home boarders, paying for education and paying far nothing else ? Those are the boys who?e parents have not completed their two years' resi- dence. The foundationers are what you would call home boarders in one sense. 48. But besides those there are other home boarders who pay ? Those home boarders who pay are those whose parents have not resided the two years in Rugby. 49. They would pay I apprehend 17 I- 5 5. for the curriculum of the school instruction, including classics, mathematics, and modern languages, and for that they would get the whole benefit of the instruction? Yes. 50. Then assuming that gratuitous education is abolished, would not the opportunity wliich would then be possessed by all the residents in Rugby of sending their boys to the school for a payment of l//- 5 s. to receive that education, adequately meet the wants of the town and district ? 1 think not. (90.) F 4 5'- You 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M. H. Bloxam, 5 1 . You think it would be too high a iiayment for the means of those who •Ei?- might properly expect to send their sons there ? ^ ri In many cases ; some like my father come there with large families. I am ' ^ '^' one of six, and I could enumerate several families, members of which have been at the school with from six to eight sons each, all of whom have been on the foundation. 52. Looking to the very large number of children who would receive the benefit of an education, not only in classics, but in modern languages and mathematics, do you consider that such a charge as \7 1. 5 s. would be deemed by the residents in Rugby an unduly high charge for all that education ? If they were to go to a private school, I should say not. It would not be high if it were not that they are entitled to the benefits of a free education. 53. Supposing this to be the result of withdrawing the gratuitous education, that the trustees were thereby empowered to create additional exhibitions to be held at the school, and additional means of going to the University for all the boys in the school out of the money so saved, should you consider, or not, that that, on the whole, conferred a benefit on the school greater than the loss that the locality sustained in being deprived of the gratuitous education r I will not pretend to say as to the school, but I think it would entail great loss on Rugby. Perhaps the Committee Avill allow me to mention another thing ; there has been an attempt, which has been discouraged by the chief inhabitants, to introduce manufactories into Rugby. That attempt has been discouraged chiefly on account of the school ; but if you do away with the good feeling that at present exists between the town and the school, I think it is very possible that Rugby might be converted, at no distant period, into a manufac- turing town. 54. JM\' question rather was this, supposing the funds so saved to be applied for the general benefit of the school, and, on the other hand, supposing no larger a sum than that 1/ /• 5 5. to be charged for the general education in the school, do you think, upon the whole, that the interests of the inhabitants of Rugby would suffer ? 1 do. 55. Chairman.] I think the practice of sojourners coming to live at Rugby is almost what we may call an innovation, is it not ; it has arisen within the pre- sent century, I think ? It has been within the present century, in a great measure. There may have been some before, but I think, to a great e.xtent, it has been within this century. .56. And they are increasing very rapidly ? They are increasing very rapidly, and the consequence is, that we have now a town free from manufactures, and a town with a great many gentry in it, who contribute very much to the charities of the town, so that the town is in many respects equal to a watering-place, except that it has not the draw- backs of a watering-place. It is the most i-espectable place in the kingdom, and on that very account. 57. From the fact of those sojourners increasing, is it not almost probable that the greater part of the foundationers will consist of their children, and will not they be educated at the expense of the trust .' Yes. 58. That is increasing at any rate? Yes, that is increasing. .5*3. You tliink that is fulfilling the intentions of the foimdcr r Yes, I think so, because the founder evidently looked forward, as you will see, from the very mode in which he left his foundation, lie hrst of all merely leaves a small estate at Brownsover frona the ancient abbey lands oF St. Mary ; he leaves his hou.se, and about a rood of land at Rugby, and then he leaves 100 /. in money. Shortly after that he revokes his will as to the 100 L, and he leaves land in the neighbourhood of London, which will inevitably become of greater value. His intention is also apparent from the very terms of his will, where SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 49 where he provides first of all for the children of llugby and Hrownsover, and IiJ- IL JJloxam, then, in order to meet future requirements, he provides for the children of other ^'^ places thereto adjoining. j.2,1, ,v|.,j. li-r^. 60. I tliink that is attributing to Mr. Lawrence Sheriff a prophetic spirit : I believe he was a long-headed man. 61. I very much doubt whether he contemplated his eight acres becoming of the value which they now are. For all those sojourners that have come, that are coming, and that will come to Rugby, a very considerable number of houses is being built, is not there ? Not now ; there have been a great number of houses built. 62. And therefore it is very much to the interest of the builders of those houses and the owners of those houses to prevent any interference with the con- ditions of the foundation, is it not. It is the interest of the inhabitants of Rugby generally. (13. Earl StanhopeJ] What do you find to be the general case with regard to sojourners : if a famil}' comes for the education of the sons of the family, do they generally leave the place when that object is attained and the sons have been educated, or do they join the permanent population r In a great many cases they purchase a house and land and continue to reside in Rugby. 64. Chairman.^ How many per cent, do you think remain in that way r I should say, perhaps, .50 per cent. ; I am speaking somewhat at random. 65. You state that 50 per cent, of the sojourners, having finished the educa- tion of their sons, live on at Rugby, and that the sojourners are greatly in- creasing in number year by year ; how is it, then, that no more houses are built for them ? There have been a number of houses built. If yovu* Lordships will allow me, I will tell you the number of houses. In 1841, there were 660 ; in 1851, 1,165 ; there are now between 1,400 and 1,500 houses. I have got a statement of the population at Rugby. In 1563, when it contained 69 houses, the popu- lation was 350 ; in 1642, when there were 180 houses the population was 900; in 1725, it was about the same; in 1801, when there were 2/6 houses the population was 1,487; in 1811, there were 319 houses, and the population was 1,805. In 1821, there were 415 houses, and 2,300 inhabitants ; in 1831, there were 2,501 inhabitants ; in 1841 there were 660 houses, and 4,008 inhabit- ants ; in 1851 there were 1,165 houses, and 6,851 inhabitants: and there are now about 1 ,500 houses, and 8,000 inhabitants. 66. Earl of Derbj/.] I understand you to state, that in your opinion, the benefit derived by the town from the increased immigration of the sojourners more than compensates for the increased chai'ge thrown by their education upon the funds of the school ? Certainly. 67. Duke of Maiiborou(jli.\ How much of that increase, you have stated, in the population of Rugby, do you attribute to the railway r I do not attribute very much of tlie increase of the sojourners to the railway, except so far as regards the facilities of bringing the families. As regards the increase of population, I should say that at least 2,000 or perhaps more than that is attributable to the railway ; I should think it is more than 2,000. In fact, I think a very large proportion of it is attributable to the railway. 68. Mr. CottrelL] Can you state to their Lordships statistically, whether Rugby has increased very much more in proportion than other places in the kingdom ? I think so. 69. You do not know the proportion r I do not, except from the paper I have read ; the increase is from 1 ,400 in 1801 to about 8,000 up to this time, 70. You have mentioned the number of houses in Rugby ; can you tell how many of those houses are under 10 /. a year rental ? No, I cannot. (90.) G 71. It 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M. H. Bloxam, 7 1 . It appears according to the Report that the number of houses has in- -^•^y* creased very largely, but it is the number of small houses that have so increased, 12th May 1865. I am told that about 1,000 out of 1,500 are rated under 10 ^. a year ? , That I cannot say. 72. Chairman.'] With reference to the number of houses that the Learned Counsel has alluded to, I vrish to ask you whether this opposition to the Bill and this alarm at the changes that may be introduced by it, does not proceed rather from the building interest than from the inhabitants of Rugby generally ? No, it is from the inhabitants of Rugby generally. The petition is signed by the principal inhabitants and by three or four magistrates ; I think I may say that all the principal inhabitants concur in the opposition except those who, like the masters of the school, may not wish to interfere, because Dr. Temple has made a report upon the subject. The opposition is not at all from the building interest, or at least not at all exclusively; I myself have nothing that you can call pecuniary interest in the school, but I am an old inhabitant of Rugby; I have resided there all my life ; that is for about 60 years now, and I should feel very much the abolition of this charity ; I may say that I was applied to, before the Report of the Royal Commission came out, by a person who wished to leave a legacy of some hundreds of pounds to one of the charities of Rugby, not exactly an unendowed charity, but one sufficiently endowed, and immediately that the Report came out that legacy was withdrawn in consequence of its being looked upon as a quasi robbery of the charities. 73. Duke of Marlborough.'] Do you consider that the interest which the inhabitants of Rugby have now in the school leads them to take an interest in the good management of the school ? Undoubtedly. 74. Do you think that they are able to exercise, in consequence of that interest, any beneficial influence upon the discipUne of the school ? They do in the town ; they have prevented any manufactures coming into the town ; they have hitherto succeeded in doing so. 75. If their interests in the school were withdrawn, then you think that they would naturally no longer have any interest with regard to the general benefit and good management of the school. They certainly would not. 76. Lord Houghton.] They contribute to the good order of the school by watching any boys that come into the town, and seeing that they behave well, I suppose ? They would not in that case. 77. But they do so now r Yes. 78. Duke of Marlborough.] That would cease when their interest ceased ? Yes ; I may mention my own case. I have no interest whatever in the school. I arn a childless man, but I should feel the abolition of the foundation the same as other people. 79. Chairman.] The prosperity of the town of Rugby depends mainly, or to a great extent, upon the school ? In some measure; it does not altogether; it used to depend upon it more than it does now. 80. And you think tliat if there was any alteration made in the foundation, the inhabitants of llugljy, regardless of all the advantages which the school gives them, would no longer take any interest in it ? 1 do not think they would. 81. Earl of Carnarvon.] You put this upon the ground of its being a local question ? It has a bearing, not only as a local question, but also as a general question of policy with regard to other charities throughout the kingdom. 82. Of what part of the country was Mr. Lawrence Sheriff a native? He was a native of Rugby. 83. What SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 51 8,3. What do you suppose, then, that he had in contemplation in founding M. H. Bhxam, the school ; the prosperity of the town generally, or the education of certain ^^1- children who were born in the district in which he was born himself? j2th May 1865. I think it was for the [irosperity of his native town, and a wish to educate the children of that town. 84. Do you think that the object he had in view was the prosperity of the town rather than the education of the children ? I think it was botli. 8,5. Is there anything in the papers that have been printed which would show that to be the case ? He leaves his body to be buried in the parish church of Rugby. 86. Is not that rather a common injunction that a person should be buried in the district where he was born ? He lived in London, and had done so for some time. He lived close to ■ Christ's Hospital, and he leaves a small legacy of 6 /. 85. 4 d. to Christ's Hospital. 87. Is not there a very material distinction between looking to the mere prosperity of a town, and looking to that which would carry out directly the wishes of the founder in the education of children who were born within that particular district from which he himself was originally sprung ? I do not know how to separate the one from the other. I believe that he founded the school for the education of the children, and for the good of the town ; that he had both purposes in view. There is a similar case in Stafford- shire, where the founder expressly declares that he was born in the town, and therefore he founds a grammar school because he was a native of the town. 88. Mr. CottrelL] You stated that you and your brothers went to Rugby at a very early period, and that you went into some low forms where you had the very earliest education. Was that earliest education which you received equal or superior to what a middle class school would give ? Certainly. Sg. So that if you had left school after having gone through the first, second, and third forms, you would still have had an early education such as is usually given at middle class schools '( Yes, I think so. It is now a great many years since I left school. I left in 1821, that is 44 years ago ; but certainly I have found the benefit of the educa- tion I received there ; that is the only education I have received in my life, except, of course, that I could read and write when I went to the school. 90. Lord Bishop of London.] I know that your brother has kept a very accurate registry of the career of different Rugbians. Is it your impression that a number of persons of very moderate means have been able to educate their sons through the present system who otherwise would not have been able to educate them, and that those young men so educated have distinguished themselves afterwards at the Universities ? Yes, certainly. gi . Can you give the number of first classes that have been gained by young men so educated? No, I believe a statement of that will be handed in by another witness. 92. iMr. Cottrell.] The question as to the definition of children of Rugby, was determined by I,iord Langdale in 1839, to signify the children of the inhabitants of Rugby 5 Yes. The Witness is directed to withdra w. (90.) G 2 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. a E. Oakley, The REVEREND CHARLES EDWARD OAKLEY, m.a., is called in ; and " *■ Examined by Mr. Cottrell, as follows : — M.A 12th May 1865. g^. YOU, I believe, are the Rector of St. Paul's, Covent Garden ? I am. 94. And you were educated as a foundationer at Rugby ? I was. 95. When did you go to Rugby School ? Id 1845. 96. Will you exiilain to their Lordships the circumstances under which you went to Rugby School, as regards the position of your father, and so forth ? My father was one of several brothers who were all officers in the King's service ; he died after 25 years' service in the Army, while on service in India.. My mother lost the prices of his commission, and returned to England so far impoverished by her husband's service. And wishing to educate me as well as possible, and having no particular tie to any place in England, she made her option to go to Rugby to place me under the care of the present Bishop of London. I was under his Lordship's care, and that of his successor, for six years nearly ; between fi\'e and six years. 97. You went, I think, in 1851 ? I went tl:c -e in 1845. q8. And vou remained until 1851 ? Yes. 99. How old were you when you went there ? A little after 13; about 13L 100. What was the result of your education there; did you go from there to the University ? I left Rugb}' after having been under the care of the present Bishop of London for several years, and obtaining certain prizes which his Lordship was so good as to award to me, and became a scholar upon the open foundation of Pembroke College, Oxford, which scholarship I should assuredly never have been able to obtain but for the training I had at Rugby. 101. And it was, thanks to the open scholarship, that you obtained there, from having been upon the foundation at Rugby, that you were enabled to go on to Pembroke College r I probably should have gone to the University if 1 had not had the scholar- ship, but no doubt my being on the foundation aided my univei'sity career, as enabling me to spend more money upon private tuition than I should other- wise have done. J 02. You obtaineil, 1 think, fnrther honours at the University r Yes, a first class in classics in the moderatim examination, and a first class in law and modern history, which a noble Lord, now upon the Committee, was so good as to give me. Earl Staii/iope.] I may add that I was cm)K)wered by my colleagues at that time to return thanks to Mr. Oakley for the very distinguished manner in which ho had answered our questions. 103. Lord rJoN(/Iito)i.] At the time you were at Rugby were there many other person* in the same jjosition as yourself- I only heard this morning that I was likely to be summoned before this Com- mittee, otherwise I shovild have had more facts to lay before yoiu- Lordships, but spe;iking i'rom memory, I shoidd say fully one-third of the foundation at the time when I was upon it were the children of persons situated as my parents were : they were the cliildren of widows, very often of officers who had served ilie Ciu<'en in the Army or Navy, or of public servants, peihaps civil servants in India, orpeiscms who were in other ways employed under the Government. We ref;;ardfd tlie fomidation in my time as being a most beneficial means of sup- plyingboys whoweic lliu children of gentle piirents with the education they might have 12th May i8Gj. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 53 have had as boarders either at Rugby or Harrow, if they had not been members ijgj,. c. e. Oakley, of large famihes, or if their fathers' lives had not been taken away prema- m.a. turely. 104. Chairman.'] The greater part of the boys you allude to were residing at Rugby with their parents ? They were residing there with one jjarent or both according to circum- stances. 105. That is to say, they were the children of parents who could afford to come and take a house and live in Rugby or the neighbourhood ? Not always to take a house ; I remember several cases of ladies who were not even able to take a house, but who lived in lodgings, and not always very good lodgings. 1 06. They wei-e considered as living in Rugby ? They were, because the circvnn stances were specially considered by the trustees, who gave the most lenient construction to the rules in such cases ; at least, that is what was stated. 107. Does not it occvu* to you that there were many widows, of persons of the gentle class, who were not even able to come and take a house or to live in lodgings in Rugby, but who might, if the foundation was open and exhibitions competed for, have availed themselves of the funds at the disposal of the trustees r It was difficult of course for boys at school to ascertain exactly what the pecuniary positions were of the parents of their fellc^ ' scholars, but boys are very often able from little circumstances to form a juc^g lent of the res augusta domi of their friends. I should say there was a considerable number of people who made the greatest possible struggles to give their children the benefit of that education. 108. And there were many others, I suppose, who were not even able to make that struggle, and who were consequently deprived of that benefit, but who might have taken advantage of it if there had been an open competition ? I am not so sure of that ; one of the Bishop of London's most distinguished pupils, whose name it is not necessary to mention, his Lordship will know whom I refer to, was the son of one of the tradespeople of Rugby, whose widow was living in the place ; certainly, they were very poor persons ; I am thankful always when I see liis name in a most distinguished position in this country, to know that he owed his success in life entirely to the benefits of that foundation. log. Mr. CottrelL] What had your education been before you entered the school ; supposing on going into the school you had been required to pass a competitive examination, how would you have been placed? I should most assuredly not have got in by competitive examination ; I do not think that at the time I went there I knew how many feet there were in a Latin verse, and certainly I should have been a very unfit subject for the care of the Bishop of London. I I o. Cha'nmaii.'] That is to say, somebody with superior knowledge and attainments to yourself would have obtained it r Undoubtedly. n 1 . Earl of Derby.'] That advantage being derived from his parents being in superior pecuniary circumstances ? Undoubtedly. 112. Duke oi Marlborough.] With reference to the boys you are mentioning, do you think there would have been a difficulty, on the part of their parents, in providing them with that preliminary instruction which would have been necessary to have fitted them for a competitive examination ? I think, so far as I know, the circumstances of the foundationers who came into the school, many of the boys looked forward to being educated after they came into the school — not before they came into it. They regarded the school as a place of education, and not merely as a hotbed for training boys who were crammed before they entered it. (90.) G3 113. Chaiimaii.] 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THK Rev. C.E. Oakley, 113. Chairman.'] At what what age did you go to the school ? — Just after M-^- I was 13. 18th May 1865. 1 14. Was that the general age at which the foundationers went r — A few, probably, went to school earlier. I should say that the bulk of the boys on the foundation went a little earlier. 1 15. Do you think that the bulk of the boys on the foundation had generally a little education beforehand ? Generally speaking, a good deal of English education could be given without cost at home, and that those rudiments they had : and most of them had the benefit, as I had myself, of a most excellent mother, and whatever a mother could teach, they had learnt ; but whatever had to be got by money, they had not leai'nt, and they looked to the school to do that which home training could not do for them. 1 16. Then, at 13 years of age, when a boy goes to a strictly classical school, such as Rugby claims to be now, he would have all the rudiments of a classical education imparted to him before 1 3 ? Not quite so. 1 17. You said all the rudiments of EngHsh education were given to the boys before they came r Yes, they had acquired the rudiments of an English education, and perhaps, . something of Latin; but you know that a mother can teach a boy a good deal at home which is very useful by-and-bye, but still hardly passes muster in a great school. ii8. Earl oi Powis.'] At all events, beginning your classical education prac- tically at 1 3, you were able to obtain high honours at Oxford r I was able to obtain a first-class in classics, and able to be examined, as I said, by a noble Lord who is now upon the Committee, upon another subject. ng. Lord Bishop of London.'] You were a pupil of the Bishop of Calcutta, were not you ? I was. 1 20. Did you ever hear of any inconveniences arising to the boarders or to other members of the school in any way from the foundation ? Not at all. I am glad your Lordship has asked me that question, because I have heard that in other foundation schools in the country there is a very invi- duous distinction made between boys on the foundation and boys who do not enjoy that privilege. I think it speaks very highly indeed for the character of the boys in the Rugby School, that we foundationers, who were distinctly known by the bulk of the boys to be the children generally of gentle parents, but very often of poor parents, were not at allowed to feel that there was any kind of distinction either in school or out of school as regards our social position, any more than as regards our intellectual attainments. 121. Earl of Carnarvon.] There was nothing like the Tugs of Eton r No. 122. 'LoyA. Lyttdton.] Do you tliink that although there was no distinction between the boys as to whether they were foundationers or not there was a distinction as to what class of life they came from ? 1 think not ; and in answer to that question, I may mention this, that the three boys, who were my dearest friends, came from very different positions in. life ; in fact, as different as could be found ; one of them was the son of a Rugby tradesman, and he is now filling a distinguished position in public life, and he has entirely to thank our Rugby training for it. 123. I remember that that was your practice, but do you think that that was the general feeling of the school ; would the son of a Rugby tradesman be as well looked u])on as anyl)()dy else in the s(;hool generally ? That is ratiier a difiiciilt (|uestion to answer as it is put. I think that the son of a Rugby tradesman, who behaved as a gentle boy, would always be treated as a gentle boy by gentle boys. The Witness was directed to withdraw. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 55 CHARLES MARRIOTT CALDECOTT, Esq., is called in ; and Examined C. M. taldccott, by Mr. Cottrdl, as follows:— _ff2- I2ih May 1865. 1 24. I BELIEVE you live in the neighbourhood of Rugby ? , I do ; I live at Opehani Grange, in the parish of Newbold, one of the places adjoining to Rugby. 125. You are a Magistrate of the County, and Chairman of the Board of Guardians, are you not ? Yes. 126. As, such, you have a good deal of connection with the town of Rugby r Yes, 127. I think you were educated at Rugby School? Yes. 128. Upon the foundation ? Yes. 1 29. When did you enter Rugby School ? I entered Rugby School in 1815. 130. At what age .'' At the age of eight. 131. Were there others of your family who had been educated in the same way r I have had six uncles and five brothers who were educated on the founda- tion. 132. At the early age that you went there, did you get a good education in the early branches of learning ? All the education that I had, except what I had from my mother, I had at Rugby, until I went to Haileybury. 133. And you remained at Rugby until you went to Hailevbury ? Yes. 134. From there you went to India, did you not ? Yes ; to Bengal. 135. And now you have returned, and live at Rugby ? I have been living at Opeham Grange for the last 19 years. 136. Are you well acquainted with the school, and wdth the class of persons who send their children there as foundationers ? Yes. 137. Will you state to their Lordships what you know upon the subject ? I believe I know as much of the feeUng about Rugby School as anybody in that part of the country. I have felt a great interest in Rugby as my native town, and the school where I was educated, and also from the kindness which I have always received from the boys of Rugby School. Ever since I have come home from India, I have been always associated with them in every way, and therefore I know pretty well their feelings, and, of course, I know also the feel- ings of the town. 1 38. Did any discomfort arise between the foundationers and boarders in your day? There was not the slightest distinction that I ever saw as a class. 139. Can you state how that is at the present time ? There is not at the present time the slightest distinction. I do not see that the boys know whether one is a foundationer or not a foundationer. 140. And there is no jealousy either in school or out of school? There is not the slightest jealousy between the foundationers and the non- foundationers. 141. Can you give their Lordships an account of the foundationers who are (90.) G 4 at 56 MINUTES OF EVIEDNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C. M. Caldecott, at present at the school, with respect to their numbers, and with respect to the ^^1- position which their parents hold ? M — 86 There are 70 foundationers. I am taking the school list of Christinas 1864, 1211 May i8b 5. ^^^ ^^^^ available hst that is published. At that time there were 498 boys in the scliool, of whom 70 were foundationers. Classifying those 70 foundationers, 1 beUeve that two are the sons of masters keeping boarding houses, Mr. Arnold and Mr. Moberley ; 1 6 are of the tradesmen class ; 1 1 are the sons of persons who mio-ht be perhaps able to pay for a boarding house education for one or two sons ; and 42 I put down as the sons of people to whom it is a real charity. 142. Chairman.'] Are they sojourners, that is to say, persons coming to reside at Rugby for the purpose of education ? Tliey are not all soiourners. i^"^. Lord Bishop of London.^ Some of them are families that have been resident there for some time ? Some of them were born there- 144. Thev are persons who have been living in the town for many years ? Yes. 145. Mr. Cottrell.'] I see you are an assessor to the income tax? No, I am a Commissioner of Income and Assessed Taxes both. 146. And in that capacity you pretty well know the rateage and the value of the houses in Rugby ? As Commissioner of Taxes, and as-Chairman of the Board of Guardians, and of the Assessment Committee, of course I do know it, and I would state in answer to that question, that the gross estimated value put in the rate books represents upon the average the real rents of the houses. 147. Can you give us the amounts of those rents? I can give you the amounts of the gross estimated values of the houses occupied by the parents of those 70 foundationers. There are 55 parents of the 70 foundationers: of these 55, 10 occupy houses of not more than 40/. a year; 10 occupy houses of not more than 50 Z. a year: 10 occupy houses of not more than 6(1 /. a year ; 5 occupy houses of not more than 70 /. a year ; 4 occupy houses of not more than 80 /. a year ; 2 occupy houses of not more than 90 /. a year ; 1 occupies a house of not more than 100 /. a year ; 13 occupy houses exceeding 100 /. a year ; of those 13, nine belong to the owners, therefore they would not come into the class of sojourners exactly. Of those nine houses, two again are the property of trades- people which are rated with their shops, and it is that which makes them come to that value. Of the remaining four, one is occupied by a gentle man who is the son of a tenant farmer within the limits of the foundation ; he was on the foundation himself, and now having made a fortune, he resides at Rugby, but sends his son to school, not as a day scholar, but as a boarder into the school- house. Another of those houses belong to a person with a very large family, who has knocked two houses into one, and they have become rated at 1(»0 I. in consequence ; there are two of which I cannot at this moment recollect the particulars. 14S. Do you hapi)en to know what amount of school charges is proposed by Dr. Temple to l)e paid in the case of home boarders ; that is to say, assuming that the class who are now foundationers were admitted to the school upon the ])aymcnt of certain fees, do you know the amount which it has been projiosed that they should pa\- ? Dr. Temple's Kejiort is before everyliody ; it was quoted by his Lordship in th(^ rioiisf of Lords on the second reading of the Dill. It proposes that 38 /., 1 think, should be paid for a boy under 12, and 40/. for a boy above 12; or rather, I think it is, that 38 /. should bo paid for a boy in the lower s(!hooI, and 40 /. a year is to be the charge for education to a foundationer, or to a day scholar. It is proposed that 10 /. should be made the charge for education to all. 149. Do you know the pecuniary position of most of the persons who have got their sons now upon the foundation at Rugby ? I have mentioned already that there are 42 to whom it is an absolute charity. 150. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [t[. L.] 57 150. Do you think that if the charj2;e for education were 40 /., as is proposed c. M. Cul'Lcotl, by Dr. Temple, that might be an important matter, so far as the majority or £« He did ; he sot not oul)^ an open 'lrinit\- Scholarship, but he got a first-elass ^^^^ ^ ^^^^ in classical moderations and a first in classical greats ; and he is now Professor of Humanity at the University of Glasgow. 29,5. Y'ou state that not one of you could have liad the education wliich you have had except by means of this foundation? Clearly not one of the three of us. My second brother took a first in moderations, and also succeeded in an open Civil Service competitive ex- amination. 296. Mr. Cottrell.'] Your second brother, then, did equally well ? He obtained what I failed in obtaining, namely, an e.xhibition from Rugby. He went to India, and is in the Civil Service there. 297. Duke of Marlboruiig/i.'] Upon what do you found your statement that four foundationers, as at present existing, would be required to make one exhibition ? It is a question of figures. 298. I understand that four times 15 are 60, but where is it proposed that the exhibition should be of 60 /. ? That is part of Dr. Temple's scheme ; he says, I propose to have 20 exhi- bibitions of 60 1, a year. The witness was directed to withdraw. WILLIAM SALE, Esq., is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Cottrell, as follows : 299. YOU were born, I believe, in the neighbourhood of Rugby ? f^. Sale, Esq. I was born within the limits of the foundation. 300. Were you educated at Rugby ? I was not ; my brother was educated at Rugby school. 301. When did you come to Ru^by ? I was born near Rugby ; within a mile of Rugby. 3f)2. When did you come to reside at Rugby ? I came to reside in Rugby 30 years ago, 303. And you have sons whom you have educated at Rugby? Yes. 304. How many sons hgive you ? I came to reside at Rugby with seven sons. 305. Are they at Rugby school, all of them r They were all educated at Rugby. 306. Are there any of them at Rugby now ? They have finished their education. 307. At what age did you send them to Rugby ? Between 8 and 10 years of age, all of them. 308. Have you continued to live in Rugby ever since ? I have continued to live in Rugby ever since, and intend to do so. . 309. Chairman.] Did you come to reside at Rugby for the purpose of edu- cating your sons ? For the express purpose. 310. Earl Stanhojje.] Did you purchase a house ? I did. 311. Mr. Cottrell.] Were your sons successful in their education at Rugby school? Three of my sons went from the school to the University, and all of them obtained scholarships at the University ; two of them are now Fellows of their (90.) I 4 colleges ; 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE W. Sale Ena. colleges ; the third is the mathematical master of a school ; two of them entered L the army, and two of them settled in the colonies j all of them are doing 12th May 1865. exceedingly well. 312. Are you acquainted witli the class of persons who have gone to llngby for the purpose of the education of their sons, and also the circumstances which have led them to do so ? I am well acquainted with them in the position I have held at Rugby ; I have had great opportunities of knowing them. 313. Were they persons of limited means, to whom the opportunities of the education which they could get at Rugby were matters of importance ? The sons of the persons who reside for the purposes of education at Rugby consist of two or three classes, tradesmen's sons and sons of persons who come to Rugby for the purpose of obtaining education, many of whom are connected with good families, some of them related, I know, to the nobility ; most of them are widows of clergymen, or officers in the army, or of professional men, and they are a most valuable class of society. 314. Are they a class of persons to whom the payment of school charges makes an important .difference? Undoubtedly ; the education of a boy at Rugby School would cost at least ' 120 /. a-year, which none of them could afford to pay. 315. Earl of Devon.] It would not be so much as that if the boys boarded at home ? No. 316. Mr. CottrelL] Are they a class of persons to whom the difference between the education being entirely gratuitous and being obtained at such a rate as it would be obtained by home boarders, would make a material difference ? Most undoubtedly. 317. If the amount charged for such education were 271. a-year or 30/. a-year ? £.30 a-year would be a very serious objection to many of them ; I was going to mention that I myself am a pretty good example of the persons who come to Rugby ; I had, as I said before, seven sons ; it was not in my power at the time to give them that education which I felt was the most valuable portion I could confer upon them ; I could not have got my sons into the army, or have sent them to the universities, or placed them out as they are now, without the aid of Rugby School. In coming there to educate them, I felt it was the most valuable inheritance I could give them. My brother, now vicar of Sheffield, obtained his education there, and has risen in great measure in consequence of his education. 1 felt the great importance of it,, and therefore I settled at Rugb}", and many others have done the same ; I consider that the free educa- tion my sons obtained in Rugby School is as much a part of their inheritance as the projjerty I possess ; and, in fact, in purchasing propert)^, which I have done to a considerable extent in Rugby, 1 have considered that the title by which the inhaljitants of Rugby hold the privilege of educating their sons in the Rugby school as valid as any title you can have ; I very much doubt whether there are any hereditary estates in the kingdom held by a better title than the privilege we think so valuable. 318. Lovd Lt/tteltoii. Do you consider, as a class, that those residents who come for this purpose are beneficial botli to the S(!hools and to the place ? I think they are Ixmeficial to the place, and I think tliev are more especially benofieial to the school itself. '1 hey ar(^ well regulated families generally, I may say of a much higher moral standing than other families are. The very cir- cumstance of their coming to Rugby to educate their children, feeling as they do the importance of that education, is almost a guarantee of their respectability ♦ and good moral influence. I might appeal to the masters of Rugby School if they were here to say that the boarding boys receive great benefit from mixing with this class. 3 1 1). Karl Potm. J I suppose, as a class, that the boys in that situation are likely to l)e a hard working class ; they are not likely to be encouraged at home in idleness r Exactly SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PLBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [il. L.] ^3 Exactly ; your Lordships will perhaps excuse my speaking somewhat freely, Z*^. Sale, Esq. in consequence of my liaving received so much benefit from the school, and ■ witnessing so much good resulting from it ; I feel that in appealing to your Lord- ''•'thMay 18G5. ships, we may expect to be protected in so valuable a privilege which we possess ; ~ that it may be handed down to tliose who come after us. As to the tradesmen requiring another scliool, none of them come here to say that they require such a school. 1 think it would be much better that the existing school should be adapted to the tradesmen than that we should be deprived of the privilege which we now enjoy. The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Rev. SAMUEL NEWALL, is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Cottiell, Rev. s. Newall. as follows : 320. I THINK you are the Vicar of Clifton ? I am. 321. And that is a vicarage of the value of 110 I. a year ? It is worth 140/. 322. It is within a mile and a half of Ru2;bv ? Yes. 323. You reside yourself in Rugby? I do. 324. When did you go to live in Rugby r I went to reside in Rugby in 1853. 325. What was the object of your doing so ? I had held the incumbency of a large populous place in the Staffordshire Potteries, but it did not agree with the health of my family. I was presented by Lord Bradford to my present living. My family at that time were extremely young, and I came merely for the purpose of a purer atmosphere and better health. 326. What family have you ? Seven ; I had eight until recently. 327. How many of those have been in the school ? Two of them have been in the school, one has left, another is in the school now, and another is preparing to enter. 328. Is it a matter of importance, in a pecuniary point of view, that you should have the privilege of free education at Rugby School ? Undoubtedly, it is a matter of very considerable importance. 329. In your case, supposing you had to pay for your children a school charge amounting to 40 /. a year, would that make a very material difference, so far as your funds are concerned } It would be inconvenient,, especially with my small benefice. 330. Earl oi Derby.'] It would make a considerable hole in the 150/. a year ? It would make a very considerable hole if I was to pay 40 /. a year for three sons at Rugby. 331. ^h. Ccttrdl.'] Have you considered the question of how your children would have been affected if there had been admission to the school merely upon a competitive examination ? I think it would have been unfortunate, because they would have entered upon the cmnpetitive examination at an early age, and I think so much depends in com- petitive examinations upon nerve, that many boys would be unsuccessful who in reality were tolerably well qualified. Viewing, as I have been accustomed to view the right of sending a boy to Rugby School as the birthright of a native of Rugby, it seems to me that a boy should not ha^L' to submit to a competitive examination, but that every native of Rugby should pass in as a matter of right. f.^O) K 332, Chairman.] 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Eev. S. Newall. ..o.j. Chairman.^ Should you have any objection to the children of the 12th May iSe-j. iiilii'Wtants of Rugby being subjected to a test examination in order to secure their not going in absolutely unfit and ignorant r I should prefer their taking full j^ossession of their privilege, and going in unfettered. •;^3^. By unfettered, you mean wholly uneducated, I suppose : 1 do net go so far as that. All I can say is, that I should prefer their not being subjected to a competitive examination. 334-5. Lord Bishop of London^ At present the boys must have made some progress before they are admitted ? Yes. '^'^(). You could not say that a boy was admitted uneducated. No ; we have already an examination before a boy can enter. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. Cottrell states that there is a builder in attendance who can prove the facts respecting the rents of houses at Rugby. The Clicdnnan states that the Committee have already had some evidence upon this point. Mr. Cottrell hands in a paper showing the income and expenditure and value of school buildings connected with the trust. — (FiV/e Appendix.) Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Monday next. Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 75 DwLwm, 15" Mali 18G5. PRESENT: H.R.H. The Prince of Wales. LoED President. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of PoAvis. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Eversley. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Houghton. THE EARL OF CLARENDON, in the Ch.\ik. Mr. Johnson.'] My Lords, on my appearance here on Thursday last on behalf 15A May 1865. of St. Paul's School, the question was put to me by a noble Earl who is present, whether the I5ill itself, and particularly the 8th section of it, could be so adapted as to suit the purposes of that school, and to confer upon the governing body an enabling power, assuming that your Lordships should see fit to exclude them from all compulsory power, so that they would be brought within the operation of the Bill. That is within your Lordships' remembrance, I dare say. We have had considerable deliberation upon that subject, and have looked at the matter with anxious care, and in the result I am bound to tell your Lordships that we feel that we could not (I say this as representing the interests of the parties for whom I appear) place ourselves at all voluntarily within the operation of the Bill. The reason why we could not, I may state shortly ; it would be this : The whole Bill is framed upon the supposition that this is trust property, and it also assumes that all changes are to be made under the authority of Parlia- ment, and from the date therefore of the operation of that 13111 the position of the Company for whom I appear would be that they would have a Parliamentary status, in fact, instead of a derivation title, and they feel that there wouUI be great risk in at all subjecting themselves to such an interpretation. That would appear in the preamble, but also more especially if your Lord- ships would do me the kindness to look at the 8th section, to which my atten- tion was particularlv directed, you will see that result would inevitably follow from that clause ; that clause says, " The governing body constituted by this Act ;" but we hope that you will exclude our governing body altogether from the operation of this Act. It then says that the governing bodies " shall have the same real and personal property, rights, powers, and privileges." There also the difficulty will arise that the governing body is, in point of fact, not the owner at all of the property either real or personal, and the utmost that they could lay claim to would be a rentcharge of 79 /. 8 s. 4 d., for which it would be hardly needful to legislate, and which, in point of fact, would not be what your Lordships would consider the subject-matter of inquiry or legislation here. The next words to which one might lake exception would be these, that they should be subject to the '• same obligations." Of course, if the Company sub- jected themselves to the obligations of this Act, they would be brought entirely within the purview and operation of the Bill itself. Earl of Derby.'] It says that they shall be subject to the same obligations as the existing governing bodies- Mr. Johnson.] Yes, my Lord, I was caught with that myself in the first in- (90.) " K 2 ' stance; 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 1 jth May 1865. stance ; but then you will see that it has the same operation as though the obli- gations Avere imposed by this Act, for it only reserves the existing obligations '■' Except so far as such property, rights, powers, privileges, or obligations are affected by this Act." So that, in fact, all the obligations imposed by this Act, so far as they could be imjjosed, would supersede altogether the obligations now existing; therefore the effect would be the same as if the obligations to which the existing governing bodies are subject were not mentioned. I trust that your Lordships will think that I have dealt with the question with all proper fairness in considering this matter, and that I may be permitted to state that the result is that we feel, as far as we can come to any conclusion upon the subject, that it would be unsafe, if not unwise, for us to place ourselves within the operation of this Bill. Earl of Harrorcbt/.] So that you pray to be excluded from the Bill ? Mr. Johnson.'] We wish to be excluded altogether from the operation of the Bill, as we cannot bring ourselves safely within its scope. If any legislation does take place upon these matters, we think it must be by a Bill brought in by ourselves. Lord Ljjtlelton.'] You take substantially the same ground as the Merchant Taylors' School ? Mr. Johnson.'\ Yes, ray Lord. Earl Stanhope.] You think that no change in the mere words of the clause woidd effect it 1 Mr. Johnson.] I do not think so ; as an opponent of the Bill it would be diffi- cult for me to suggest any alterations or amendments, but I may go so far as to say that I do not think the Bill could be so amended as to meet the wishes of the parties whom I represent. Chairman.] Then it is the wish of the INIercers' Company that St. Paul's School should not be included in a Bill for regulating the great public schools of the country r ^: Mr. Johnson.] Quite so, my Lord. Lord Lyttelton.] You say that after consultation with them ? Mr. Johnson.] Yes : I say that after full consultation and deliberation with the Mei'cers' Company. Chairman.] (To Mr. Michael.) Do you appear for Pinner as w'ell as for Harrow r Mr. Michael.] Pinner is included within the ambit of John Lyon's will, and 1 believe I shall have some witnesses to call from Pinner. I may say that I represent also the rights of the inhabitants of Pinner. My Lords, I have the honour of appearing before you in support of the Petition of the Inhabitants of Harrow, which has been before your Lordships. It is a very short petition, drawn up, I believe, at a public meeting of the inhabitants, and I shall only have to direct your Lordships' attention to the second allegation in that petition, which 1 will read. The petition is called, "The humble Petition of the Undersigned Freeholders, Leaseholders, and Inhabitants of the Parish of Harrow-on-the-Hill, in the County of Middlesex;" and the allegation against the Bill is, " Because it is proposed by the Bill to deprive the inliabitants of the Parish of Harrow of most valuable private rights, without any commensurate advantage accruing to the public, and without , affording any compensation to those individuals who, without any sufficient reason assigned, or assignable, will be deprived of the material privileges which the owners of property in, and inhabitants of the pai-ish have enjoyed for nearly three centuries." Now, my Lords, I may say with reference to this petition, that I believe a more disinterested petition was never presented to your Lordships' House. If your Lordships have the petition Ix'fore you, I think you will find that it is signed by the whole of the influential inhabitants of the parish of Harrow. I think there are upwards of 200 signatures representing all classes of the inhabitants. Chuirma.-j.] SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.j 77 Chairman.'^ Tliere are 1 13 signatures. ir.th May ifCj. Mr. Micluiel.'] 1'hen, my Lord, I am in error; I thought there were more than "200 signatures. However, I believe it fairly represents the wliole of the inhabitants ; and 1 am instrueted to say that the whole of the inhabitants, without a single execjjtion, eoneur in the opposition we think it our duty to make to this liill. That opposition not being an obstructive opposition, but an opposition because, as I think I shall show you, it is really in the interests of Harrow School itself, in the interests of education generally, and in the intei'ests of the inhabitants of Harrow that this IJill should not pass into a law as it now stands. Why this opposition is so disinterested will be apparent to your Lordships when you look at the 20th Clause of the Bill, which, by a proviso attached to the end, saves the rights of all the present inhabitants of Harrow, and the children of those inhabitants. It says, " In which case all the children of such parents born at or within 10 years after the passing of this Act shall be entitled in the same manner as if this Act had not passed." Therefore it will be e\ ident to you at once, that for a quarter of" a century to come this Bill can have no operation whatever. The whole of the rights of the pres( nt inhal)itants are preserved ; nothing can be done in carrying out the alterations to be introduced by this Bill until, at the very lowest, 25 years have elapsed from the present time. The necessity of your appearing here to-day is occa- sioned by the fact that the inhabitants of Harrow had no opportunity whatever afforded to them by the Commission of making their wants and wishes known. In the first place they knew nothing of the meeting of the Commissioners. It is true that the Commission met one day at Harrow, but the inhabitants not only knew nothing of the meeting, but they did not know that they might be represented before the Commission ; no information was afforded them of the willingness of the Commissioners to hear them upon the subject, and, indeed, looking at the terms of the Commission itself, they had no idea that the Com- mission would report upon any subject further than the internal regulations, and the mode of management, and the education afforded in public schools. Therefore, believing that their interests would not be in any way affected by any Bill which might be the result of the Report of the Commission, they took no means of making their wants and wishes known to the Commission • which sat upon Public Schools. * The object of the petitioners in appearing here to-day is really to preserve a great public privilege ; and it will be necessary for me (and I shall do it as shortly as I can consistently with bringing the matter properly before your Lordships) to advert in as few words as possible to this foundation, its mode of establishment, and its history up to the present time. Lord Lyttelton.'] You contend that it is a public privilege ? Isir. Michael.'] Yes; it is a public privilege. This matter is admirably stated, and with great brevity, in the Petition of Leonard Stockdale to the Court of Chancery, in 1610, with reference to the mode in which the governors were carrying out the trust imposed upon them by the will, statutes, and rules of John Lyon. That Petition says, " That one John Lyon, late of the parish of Harrow-on-the-Hill, in the county of Middlesex, yeoman, obtained letters patents of license, from the late Queen Elizabeth, to erect and maintain a Free School at Harrow aforesaid, and to give lands towards the yearly repair of the highways between London and Edgware, and other places, and to other goods and charitable uses in the said letters patents mentioned. And for the government thereof, the said Queen did thereby also appoint six persons, all of that jjarish, to be the first governors during their lives, and upon the death of any of them, the surviving governors to choose other fit and discreet persons of the parish aforesaid to succeed the deceased : and that upon neglect of such choice within six weeks after such death, the Bishop of London for the time to have the choice, with other powers and privileges thereby granted to the said John Lyon, to purchase lands and to make orders, statutes, and rules for the better government of the said School and performance of the same chari- table uses. That, accordingly, the said John Lyon did make orders, statutes, and rules, and conveyed divers messuages, lands, and tenements to the said governors for the time being, to be converted to the purposes aforesaid after the decease of the said John Lyon and Joan, his wife. And shortly after, the (90..) ' K 3 said 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J5th May 1865. g^jj j^i^^^ Lyon died, and the said Joan died in or about the month of Augur^t 1608, after whose death the governors aforesaid for the time being became enabled to execute the trust in them reposed." 1 may state that antecedently to this period, in 1572, John Lyon had estab- lished a school for the benefit of the inhabitants of Harrow, and I pray your Lordships to keep in view, during the short time I shall have the honour of addressing you, the fact that it was for the inhabitants of Harrow, so specially named by John Lyon, that this Trust was first founded and the School estab- lished in 15/2. In 1590, John Lyon died, and this was a Petition to the Court of Chancery, in 1610, in order to have an account of the moneys and the trusts reposed in the governors. This School was established with two objects : the first was to educate a certain portion of the children of the inha- bitants of Harrow, who are designated to be " a meet and competent number" of the children of the inhabitants of Harrow, and the schoolmaster and usher are to be appointed under the 10th of John Lyon's orders, which reads thus : — " I do also further ordain and appoint that the said governors or the more part of them, within one half-year next after the decease of one the said John Lyon, and Joan, my wife, shall make and appoint one sufficient and able man, not under the degree of a Master of Art, to be schoolmaster of the said Free Grammar School. And also one other to be usher of the said Free Grammar School, not under the degree of a Bachelor of Art, which school- master and usiier shall continue in their several offices so long as ihey shall well and honestly behave themselves in the same offices ; and shall have and receive for their several stipends and wages, such several sums of money as hereafter in these ordinances and rules shall be limited and appointed to be paid to them." Then the 12th Order, statute and rule directs the amounts of money which shall be paid to the schoolmaster and the usher, and deals with the coals and firewood, and various matters, and specifies certain sums which are to be paid for preaching certain sermons in the parish church of Harrow. It then pro- vides : " Also the said keepers shall give and bestow yearly, for ever, 20 /. lawful money to and upon four poor scholars (that is to sa30, 5 /. to eveiy of them, towards their maintenance, at learning at the Universities, two of them to be of Gonvile and Caiues College, in Cambridge, the other two of such col- leges in Oxford as by the discretion of the said keepers and governors shall be thought best, to be paid at the Feast of the Annunciation of Blessed Mary the Yirgii), and St. JNlichael the Archangel, by equal portions ; and every of them to have and enjoy tlie said exhibition until they be of eight years continuance in the University, if by the discretion of the said keepers and governors they shall be thought to have need thereof so long, and if they do profit and go well forward in leai'ning, or else to be displaced by the said keepers and governors, and others to be put in their rooms. All the said poor scholars to be taken and chosen out of the said Free Grammar School at Harrow afore- said, of such as have been brought up and taught in the said schools as soon as any such meet to go to the University shall be found in the said school, to be chosen and aj)pointed by the said keepers and governors of the most apt and most ])oor sort that be meet, the poor kinsfolk of me the said John Lyon (if any such be), and such as are born within the said parish of Hari'ow being apt to learn, poor, and meet to go to the University, to be preferred before others." Then, coming back to the point from whicli I started, it says, that a " meet and competent number of scliolars, as well of poor, to be taught freely for the stipends aforesaid, as of others, to be received for the jirofit and com- modity of the said schoolmaster." Those ai'c the boys who are now named, as your Lordshijjs well know, foreigners; the whole school of Harrow, at the pre- Si nt time, being divided into the three classes of foundationers, home l)oarders, and foreigners ; found;itioners are those who receive the benefit of the founda- tion ; home-boarders those who pay for education, precisely the same as boys living in tlie master's house, but who lodge at home vvith their parents ; and foreigners, the ^ons of rich men, who are able to i)ay, not oidy for the educa- tion, but for residence in the master's house. " A meet and competent number of scholars, as well of poor, to be tauglit fi'eely for the stipends aforesaid, as of otiiers to be received for the further jirofit and commodity of the said school- master, shall b(! set down and ajjpointed by the discretion of the said keepers and governors from time to time." Then, I SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] /^ Th-.n, as was so usual in those days, John Lyon by his will ordered that a 15* J^ay 1865. certain sum of money out of the moneys devised by his will should be expended in repairing certain roads. I will read a short portion of the ne.\t clause of that statute : " And further my mind and will is, and I do by these piesents ordain and appoint, that the i-aid governors and tlieir successors for ever, shall yearly bestow four pounds of lawful money of England in manner and form following (that is to say), two pounds of the said four pounds shall be employed yearly for ever towards and upon the repairing and amen(hng the highway between Gore- land Gate and Hyde House, at the discretion of the said governors." I [)ray your Lordships specially to take heed to that, as I shall have to direct your Lord- ships' attention to the fact that the discretion of the governors has been entirely set aside, and those moneys have been diverted from the purpose for which they were originally intended, and the largest portion of tliis foundation, instead of being expended as he directed for the purpose of education in his parish, is really expended for repairing the roads of London ; the present state of things being, that while a sum of only about 1,100/. comes into the hands of the governors for the purposes of education, so large a sum as 3,500 /. a-year has been diverted, and I grieve to say that has been owing to the want of the exercise of proper discretion upon the part of the governors in times past from the purposes of the founder of this school, to the repairing of roads, which he certainly never intended by his will or by his statutes. Lord Lyttelton.'] Do you intend to raise any practical question upon that r Mr. Michael.^ I am afraid it is too late now to do so. Lord Lyttdton.'l Certainly, it is a great deal too late. Mr. Michael.'] It is the more important, then, to see that at the present time we have the full benefit of the attention of the governors. Chairman!] The fund to which you allude may be considered as irreparably lost? Mr. Michael.] Yes ; but it is necessary for me to touch upon it as a matter of history, to show your Lordships that a very large portion of the moneys originally devised by John Lyon have been diverted from their purpose, and have gone into other hands ; and my contention would be, that precisely the same thing is attempted to be done by the Bill before your Lordships, namely, the diversion of money originally intended for the education of the children of the inhabitants of Harrow to purposes not contemplated by John Lyon. Earl Stanhope.] Can you state at what time this diversion took place ? Mr. Michael.'] In 1803, my Lord. Chairman.] This diversion has been matter of legislation ; and it has been embodied in various Acts of Parliament since 1803, more particularly in the Act of 1806 ? Mr. Michael] Yes, my Lord. Lord Lt/ttelton.] You mean to contend that that diversion of a part of the funds makes it all the more important to keep the rest for the purpose for which it was intended ? Mr. Michael.] Yes, that makes us the more jealous that there should not be any further inroad upon the benefits intended to be conferred by John Lyon's will. Then, by a further clause, John Lyon says, " And whereas I, the said John Jjyon, do purpose, by the grace of God, to build with some part of my lands lying within the town of Harrow-upon-the-Hill, as well meet and convenient rooms for the said schoolmaster and usher to inhabit and dwell in, as also a large and convenient school-house w'ith a chimney in it," and so on ; "and for as much as it has pk ased Almighty God of his great and infinite mercy, as well to bless me with the lands and possessions aforesaid, as also to assist me with his grace to assure and dispose the same to the uses and purposes herein mentioned and specified, wherein I have only sought tlie advancement and setting forth the glory of Goa, and the good example, benefit, and furtherance ; I do, therefore, in the name of God, straightly charge the said keepers and (00.) K 4 governors 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 15th May 1865. governors which now be or any time hereafter shall be, as they will answer ^ before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, to be careful and faithful in the just and true disposition, execution, and performance of all and singular the things herein-mentioned belonging to their charge, and to see and provide that the whole profits of the said lands, the yearly rents, all lines and other commodities whatsoever thereof in anywise arising or coming to be wholly employed and bestowed to and for the uses, intents, and purposes herein mentioned and declared, in the best and most beneficial wise that may be to their skill and knowledge ; and if any overplus be the same to be safely kept in stock towards necessary charges, and part thereof to be given and bestowed for the relief of poor marriages, and other such good and charitable purposes within the said parish of Harrow, at the discretion of the said keepers and governors." The 15th Section is (I am specially reading those points to which I shall afterwards have to direct your Lordships' attention ; I am desiring to take up no time that I do not think absolutely necessary), " Item ; my full mind and will is, and I do by these presents ordain and appoint that every of the said keepers and governors to be chosen after the death of me, tlie said John Lyon, shall be one of the honest and substantial inhabitants within the said parish of Harrow, and shall he chosen within the space of 28 days next after that into which he is to be chosen doth become void." The 18th item is, " I do also ordain and appoint that the said four scholars to whom I have appointed the exhibition aforesaid, shall be elected and chosen of such scholars as shall be of the said Free Grammar School of Harrow-upon- the-Hill, if there shall be then any that shall be apt to learn and so sufficiently instructed in grammar that they shall be able to be sent to the said Univer- sities." I direct vour Lordships' particular attention to that part of the 1 8th Section, because it will be evident from that clause what was the meaning which John Lyon put upon the word " grammar," which is an important point to direct your Lord- ships' attention to with reference to his whole intention as to the education to be given in the scb.ool. Then, the Hist Section is, " Item ; the governors of the said Free Grammar School, or the more part of them for the time being shall have the authority, with the consent of the said schoolmaster for the time being, to admit children into the said Free Grammar School." Then, the o3d Section is, " Item ; if any question, ambiguity, or doubt shall hereaiter, at any time, happen to arise or grow upon any of the rules and statutes now made and appointed, or of anything herein contained, or if any variance or question shall happen to arise among the governors of the said Free Grammar School concerning anything touching their Corporation, or the ordering of the lands and possessions belonging to the same, or for the election and ai)i)ointing of any schoolmaster and usher, or for any other thing touch- ing the governance of the said school, and the scholars in the same ; and that the said governors be equally divided so as there be no agreement of the greater \y.\Yt of them one way ; tlien every such question, doubt and variance, shall be by two of the most ancient governors for the time being, within 20 days next after, opened and declared to the Right Honourable and Most Reverend lather in God the Archbishop of Canterbury for the time being." Then I come to the rules of John Lyon, which he ordered to be observed for the ordering of the said school : " The schcolmaster may receive over and above the youtii of the inliabitants within the parish, so many foreigners as the whole number may be well taught and applied, and the place can conveniently contain liy the judgment and discretion of the governors: and of the foreigners he may take such stipends and wages as he can get, except that they he of the kindred of John Lyon the founder, so that iie take pains with all indifferently, as well of the parish as foreigners, ;.s well poor as rich, by the discretion of the governors ^liall l)e looked into that he do." Another very important point is as to distance, to which I shall have to direct your Lordships' attention. That is mentioned under the Ibm-th ride : " The master shall take order that all his scholars repair unto the school by six oi' the clock in tin; morning throughout the year, or as soon as they may conveniently, having respect unto the distance of the place from which they come, and the season of the year." Tliert the fifth rule : "The schoolmaster shall have regard the uumners of his scholars, and see that they come not uncombed, unwashed, ragged, or slovenly ; hut before all things he shall punish severely lying, picking, stealing, fighting, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS lilLL. | H. L.J 81 fighting, filthiuess, or wantonness of sjk'CcIi, and such like." The sixth rnle is if,th Maj- i8Gj hnportant cspt'cially with respect to the (inc>ti()n of a lower form in tlm school, " The school heside the petties ;" I take that to mean the elementary parts of instruction which John Lyon intended to 1)(' taught in his scliool. Lord Li/iteltoji.] 'J'he "petties" means certain boys ? Mr. Michael.^ Yes, my Lord, it means boys taught in tlie earlier forms : in the first rudimentary forms. " The school beside the petties. which have not learned their accidence or entered into the Lnglish rules of graunuar shall be divided into five forms." Then follow the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 1 Ith rules showiui;' the classical education which John T.yon intended to be given, rules which I am siu'e will commend themselves to your Lordships' minds, the only omission being, and that certainly is a serious one, that no works of Homer ai'e mentioned in the list. Lord Lijttelto//.] There is no translation of Homer even? Mr. Michael.^ I presume there was not any at that time. I have now, my Lords, directed your attention to the rules and statutes re- specting all the ])oints I think it necessary you should consider. Now what is the present condition of the school r By John Lyon's will it was intended tliat a school should be established for the benefit of the whole of the inhabitants of Harrow. And I take it that we must not, in looking at the intentions of John Lyon in establishing this school, come down to the present time in order to throw light upon the past. I believe that the question ot tlie education of the masses was a subject that John Lyon never thought of. and that when lie spoke of poor children being educated, he did not contemplate all the i)Iougli-boys who went whistling along for want of thought : but he mcreh" intended to give edtication to those poor boys in the parish of Harrow who, wishing to obtain learning without his foundation as poor scholars, would have found it impossible to obtain that benefit. And seeins; that the monies lie left might be insufficient for this purpose, he intended, as an element to aid the master ni giving tiiat in- struction, that a limited number of young persons from a distance, whose parents were able to pay for the benefits of education, shoidd be superadded to the noble fovmdation which he placed there, that addition being made in order to help the master in giving proper instruction. My Lords, at the present time, that which John Lyon intended to be the accidental has become the actual ; that which he intended to l)e merely supple- mental has become the whole of the school. While we find that a laro;e proportion of the bovs in everv other school are loundationers, by turning to the Report of the Royal Commissioners we shall find that Harrow is the very lowest one on the list. C/uiinnati.] The lowest one on the list in what respect : Mv. Michael.] In respect to the proportion of fotmdationcrs as eomjjared to foreigners. At Charterhouse there is one foundationer to one and three quarters of the other boys ; at Shrewsbury the proportion is one to four : at Rugby it is one to six ; at Westminster it is one to two and a half; at Winchester it is one to two ; at F.ton it is one to twelve : and Harrow is at the bottom of the fist, having only one foundationer to thirteen foreigners. The condition of the school, therefore, has very seriously changed from the time of John L)on. Let it not be supposed that I come here as representing the inhabitant^ of Harrow to sav a word against the enormous benefits that ha\e been conferred iq:)on the school by the accession of foreigners. Wc say that it has been an enormous benefit : all classes from the highest to the lowest have fused together in the school and received the great benefits of education in common. One of our groinids of opposition to the IJill is because we believe that the eftect of the 20tli clause of the Bill will be to throw the benefits of this edtication entireh' into the hands of the rich, to the exclusion, systematically and continually, of everv other class: and we say that the benefits which have accrued in times past from John Lyon's foundation according to his intention, although of course they have been modified by circumstances, are still maintained and are only threatened t6 be destroyed by the Bill which you have now to consider. Now, one very strong point which I may only mention here (I do not intend (90.) ' L " ■ to 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE igtb May 1865. to argue it until it comes in its proper place), is, that the number of boys in the ~ school living upon the spot has been very small. I shall have to show you the circumstances which have caused the number of boys really and absolutely locally interested, taking the strictest view of who are locally interested, to be specially limited. The present condition of the school is, that you have a most flourishing school with a very large number of foreigners, a small number of home-boarders, whose parents deeply value the privilege of superintending the religious education of their children, while they obtain the advantages of a public school education, and a small number of foundationers, which it will be found by reference to the Royal Commissioners' Report, has not varied in any- essential degree for the last 40 or 50 years, the number i)eing, upon the average, 33 foundationers and home-boarders, 10 of whom are home-boarders and 23 foundationers. Earl of Derby. ^ What is the total number in the school including the foreigners ? Mr. Michael^ The number may be said to be about 450 ; it is rather in- creasing since I he date of the Report oF the Commissioners. 1 am told the num- ber in the school at the present time is 515. But there is one very important point to remember with respect to this foundation, that the school, like all other schools, has been subject to great fluctuations in number and in prosperity. Whatever may be thought of charities, and 1 hope you will not subscribe to the doctrine, which is already too prevalent, that all charities are either useless or mischievous ; this one thing we must remember, that it is the existence of this foundation in times of depression which has kept the school together. There are great benefits connected with foundations, whatever may be said of the evils attending them, and there must be evils attending any good in our changeable state of afl^airs in this world. We can have no good uncontaminated and un- mixed with evil, and no doubt evils have crept into this system, and that the enabling clauses of this Bill may be really of great service in prompting the governors to make provision for the existing state of things, and in giving them powers which they did not possess for accomplishing that object. But it must be remembered, that veith these evils, there has been this good : When schools or other charitable institutions have come to a very low ebb they have been only prevented from being destroyed by the existence of such a nucleus as a founda- tion, which has kept them together. By the fluctuating spirit of the times this school has occasionally come very low and might have been swept away alto- gether in some time of despair and despondeney if no foundation had existed as a standing point that might serve as an obstruction to the tide that threatened to sweep away the institution. I must direct your Lordships' attention to the fact that the word " free " which John Lyon uses, is a word which has been open to considerable discus- sion. It is quite clear that at the present time no free education is given at Harrow, for the monies paid by the three classes are seventeen guineas for the foundationers; that is, 21. \0s. for school charges, 15Z. for private tuition, and 7 s. for incidental charges, in making the total sum paid by every person having what is called free education. Seventeen guineas house boarders, who pay the whole sum for education, are charged 41 /. 5*., and persons living in the master's house pay sums varying from 150/. to 210/. Therefore, in one sense, free education, that is, education free of any payment, is not to be obtained at Harrow. Still, it lias been found in time past to be a great benefit that those whom Providence and the will of God has reduced below their original status in life, or has deprived of the head of the family by various casualties, have thus been enabled to avert that which is the direst misfortune which can befal a family, namely, (he stroke of adversity striking the child through the parent, might, by means of a local foundation on which they could rely, asail them- selves of the school at the moderate cost of \7l. \7s.; so as not only to main- tain th(;ir p()siti(m in life for their children, but to give them a thoroughly good education. Then, my Lords, I shall have to contend that by the provisions of the Bill you ai c now considcu-ing, no benefit whatever can accrue, but rather harm from the proposed alteration. I say ihat no benefit (;an accrue to those who are intended to be benefited, and those at present deriving the benefit them- selves must be entirely swept away. This question, to some extent, came before Sir William Grant, in 1610. You will SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 83 will remember that a suit was instituted in Cliancery. in order to have an 15th May 1865. account of the manner in which the governors expended tlie money, and also to know whether the master was entitled to take such a large number of foreigners as to exclude the inhabitants. The judgment of Sir William (Jrant was, in reality, that the school was carried out in accordance with tlie founder's inten- tions that the inhabitants vvere to have the benefit of the school, but that the foreigners wore not to be excluded. I think 1 have correctly stated the whole effect of Sir WiUiam Grant's judgment. Now, I must direct your l.ordships" attention to the allegations, as 1 gather them from the R(])ort of tlie Commissioners, upon which I pnsume this Bill has been founded, and which may l)e brought forward in support of the Bill. They are three : first, that the benefits are not used by the class for which they were inlended ; secondly, that the foundationers are paid for entirely by the foreigners, and thirdly, that there is some danger of the school being swept away by the admission of too large a number of foundationers. 1 have directed your Lordships' attention to the fact, that the school has rarely been altered with respect to the number of foundationers ; that while it was intended that the foreigners should only be a small portion in aid of the larger portion who would be home boarders and foundationers, it has come to pass in process of time, owing to the popularity of tlie school and the good teaching which has been given there, that a large number of the boys of the wealthier classes have flocked to receive the advantages it offered, while but a small number of boys have reaped the benefit of the foundation. But John Lyon intended that the inhabitants of Harrow shoidd receive the advantage. Now it is contended that the inhabitants do not really receive that advantage ; and I may at once broadly state to your Lordships that it is the impression of the parties whom 1 have the honour to represent before your L'jrdships, that the persons intended by Jchn Lyon's will, that is the inhabitants of Harrov/, really do receive the advantage. It is said that a large number of persons come to Harrow for the | lurpose of receiving the benefit of this education, and that they are simply sojourners. Now, it cannot be contended that John Lyon intended dimply that the persons then resident at Harrow^ should receive the advantage, and no one else. He must have known that in process of time, the school would be filled by persons coming from a distance, in the natural course of things, to inhabit houses at Harrow, even if ihe number of houses had not in anyway altered, if there had been no greater number of houses ; and I shall have to show your Lordships that until within a very recent period, from causes unconnected with the school, the village of Harrow may be said to have been stationary with respect to house building. John Lyon therefore intended to benefit the inhabitants of Harrow ; and we^ shall have to contend before your Lordships that a great national advantage is conferred by the school in respect of the parties who now receive the benefits of Harrow School. 1 turn to page 51 of the Report of the Com- missioners on Pubhc Schools, and there 1 find the Commissioners say this, " We apprehend that it may be said in general terms that the object which the founders of these schools have in view were national rather than local." This passage is under the head of London schools, and I contend that a national and local advantage is derived at Har'^ow . It has become in reality a London school ; it is a school so immediately contiguous to the metropolis that the advantages derived from it are both local and national. It has been said that what is local is often general, and certainly with respect to Harrow, the adA an- tages accruing in times past to i)ersons who otherwise would have been deprived of a good education have been very great, as the evidence I shall have to adduce to your Lordships will convincingly prove. There is also a great advantage accruing to the school from the class of per- sons who have availed themselves of the advantage wmich it affords ; a number of persons of the higher classes have come to reside at Harrow ; ladies with large families, who have been obhged to resort to the foundation to educate their boys, and have been obliged to have recourse to their own intellectual abiUty to educate their daughters ; and who, in order to provide means o( keeping their boys and at the same time to educate their daughters, have been obliged to open classes for the instruction of foreigners, if I might so call them ; that is to say, of other young ladies, in order to obtain the requisite means to maintain themselves, and keep their boys at the school. Those persons are inhabitants of Harrow at the present time. It is true that they have come from a distance (90. ,' L 2 with 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i5tli May i86j. with this object, but they have hved there lor many years, some of them ahnost all their lives ; they have obtained the advantage of this education, and that advantage has been infinite to themselves, and very great also to the country at large; for from them, from these classes of boys educated at public schools, have risen some of our great warriors and statesmen; and not a few of those great men have been in such a position that but for such an education as the loundation at Harrow offers, they would have been obliged to descend irom the status which their family formerly held, in consequence of a misfortune which had happened to the head of the family. It has been said that the inhabitants of Harrow have not availed themselves of this advantage. I have read to your Lordships a rule which shows that John Lyon intended that the radius should be; an extensive one. But the regulations of the head masters have practically so narrowed the limits within which boys can be sent to the school, by requiring them to appear at so early an hour in the morning, and to keep all the bills during the day, that it has practically Ijccome impossible for any Ijoy who is the son of an inhabitant livine: at a greater distance than half a mile from the sehool to obtain these advantages. This has of necessity extremely limited the numbers of sons of inhabitants at the school. It is to be remembered that only a '■ meet and competent number " could be admitted, by the authority of the trustees with the consent of the head masters. Those regulations prevent the attainment of the advantages contemplated by the founder. There are, however, a sufficient number of parents resident at Harrow who will come and tell you that in order to secure those advantages they ai*e prepared to try this question of distLUice, to see whether the advantages of Harrow School are not practically to be thrown open to the whole of tlie inhabitants of the parish, for they have been restricted to a very small number hitherto. And, on the other hand, \.v are met only by the ex parte evidence of the masters, for they were tiie only persons who were examined by the Commission, except two gentlemen, neither of whom was asked a single question with respect to the touudatiou, although one of them was a foundationer, I\Ir. Lang, whose father I shall have the pleasure of brmg- ing itefore your Lordships. This regulation has entirely precluded persons from sending their children to school from beyond a limited distance. The masters in their evidence adduce as one reason why the privilege should be destroyed, that the parents have not been ready to avail themselves of the advantages offered by the school. Earl of Derhy.^ What are the hours now- actually prescribed. The original regulation is six o'clock throughout the year, subject to such modifications as may be introduced " having respect to the distance of the place from which they come and the season of the year ; " those ai'e the words? Mr. Michael.'] Those are the words I i-ead, my Lord, but those are not the regulations which are practically in force. Half-past seven is the time when tliey are required to appear in the morning, and there are bills, I think, every two hours in the da}'. There is one other regulation made by the masters which has been cxtremel)^ restrictive of this right; it is that no boy is allowed to ride on a pony to the school. Therefore, it is ])erfectly impossible for a boy to reside at a greater distance than half-a-mile if he is to be there so early in the morning as half-past seven all the year roimil. This regulation operates as a restriction from allowing boys to live in any house excejjt the master's house ; and tiiese regulations and restrictions have very materially curtailed the advantages offered by the school. Chamnan.l You are arguing that the hours ought to be altered to those which .lolni Lyon ))rescribed ? Mr. Michael.] Certainly ; either the bo}s ought to be allowed to ride, or, strictly carrying out the intentions of tlu^ founder, there should be some regu- lations allowing tlu^ boys at a distance some grace. Chairman.] But the regulations of the founder were that they .should assem- ble at six in the morning ? Mr. Michael.] Yes, my Lord, but under very different circumstances. Lord Hon(jhton.~\ What was the date of the rule you have been referring to ? .Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. ( II. L.] 85 Mr. Michael.] 1 am not aware of the date of it; it was in 1800, I think; it i^th May ibGo- was established by Dr. Vaughan. Earl of Harrowhy.'] Were those regidations made by the governors or l)y the masters r Mr. Michael. \ 1 think 1 may say that for a great many years j^asl the masters praetieally have made every rule and the governors none. Earl of Uarrowbi/.] Did the masters make the rule that no boy shall be admitted who is not a resident in a master's Iiouse r Mr. Michael.] There was no sueh rule ; 1 meant that no boy could be admitted except he had a parent there. Lord Lyttchon.] You said, as I. understood you, that he could not lodge in any house except that of his parent or of a master ? Mr. Michael.] Yes, or a guardian ; not a guardian ai)i)ointed by the parent, but a natural guardian. Chairman.] A guardian, or some person who shoidd act in loco j)0,rcntis l Mr. Michael.] No, 1 am given to understand that that rule has n(;ver obtained ; it has never been allowed that a person should be substituted in loco parentis. I believe there was one single exception, and that gentleman I shall place before you that you may hear the account he gives. He will tell you that he is now precluded by the existing rules, but tiiat there was an exception made in his favour once. Earl of Harrowhy.] Was the regulation about coming to school on a pony made by the masters or the governors ? Mr. Michael.] By the masters ; the whole governnaent for years past has been in the hands of the head master, who has felt himself competent to make any rules whatever for the government of the school. Your Lordships will find it stated in the 158th page of the 4th volume that the governors have practically not inter! ered for some years. The second allegation to which I will direct your Lordsliips' attention, is-: a ver)^ important one ; it is, that at the present time the foundationers are deriving the advantage of the foundation, not out of the funds left by .John Lyon, but that they are indirectly paid for by foreigners. To this I am in a posi- tion to give a direct negative of the strongest kind by figures which are per- fectly unanswerable. I can show your Lordsliips that in reality the founda- tioners pay a larger sum than any other class in the school. I was quite aware that I should excite your Lordships' wonder when I made that statement, but one moment's consideration of these figures will show it to be so. The founda- tioners pay 1" guineas a year ; if this is multiplied by 23, the average number upon the foundation during the last 30 or 40 years, it will bring out a sum somewhat over 400 /. From the trust funds, the school derives 700 /. in actual money per year. That brings us to a total of 1,100 /., and that divided by 23, makes the sum evolved 48 /. per foundationer. That calculation you will re- member is entirely leaving out of consideration tlie value derived by the head master and other masters in the conduct of the school from the possession of the whole of the school plant and buildings. What is this money expended on r On the sustentation, ancl on the erection of buildings, keeping them in order, and warming and cleansing them. Is that for the use of the foundationers r Most assuredly not ; 23 boys cannot require these extensive buildings, and the large sums of moneys which are paid for their repair and sustentation. It is for the foreigners that this money is expended. ■ Chairman.] You must be perfectly well aware that all those buildings, some of them very magnificent, have been built by subscription ? Mr. Michael.] I am perfectly well aware of that. Chairman.] You are talking as if they were built out of the trust funds ? Mr. Michael.] A large number of them are the property of the Trust, but I have left those entirely out of consideration, without taking into considera- tion the valuable propertv which belongs to the foundation, and which, by this (90.) ' L 3 Bill J86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 15th May 1865. Bill, is intended to be appropriated to the foreign element of the school : 48 I. _. is paid, either by his parents, or by the trustees, for every foundationer. Now, the home boarders only pay about 40 I. a year each for the whole of the school charges. With respect to that amount of /OO /. a year, which in the Rej)ort you will find is stated as being paid every }'ear, year by year, towards this school, I can give you the items of the whole of the sums composing that pay- ment from page 270, where you will see " Application of the moneys received for or on account of Harrow School for the year ending 25th March 1861." Head master's salary, 30 1. ; under-master's salary, 24 /. Ss. Ad.; under- master's compensation, in lieu of residence, 25 /. ; writing master and librarian's salar3% 16/. los. 4(1.: governor's exhibitions and scholarships, 195/.; repairs and works, including hot-water apparatus to warm school-house, 264 I. os. 4 d.; school porter's salary, 52 /. ; head master's allowance for school coals, 20 /. ; examiner's fees, 20/.; prize books, I//. 1 ■<■- 3rf, ;" and then we wind up with, " School porter, for brooms, 10*. 6 6?." There are several other items also. JN'ow that amounts to a total exceeding 700/.; I think above 750 /. ; all that is expended upon the school, and if the Trust funds were not at hand, that money must be found by the head master out of the 10,000 /. a year which the iiead master receives ; he would have to pay that 700 /. If he did not receive that sum in this way, he would have to pay it in another way ; there- fore he receives for teaching the 23 foundationers, 17 guineas from each, 400 /., and 700 /. from the school fund ; and in addition to that, he has a portion of the school property, which is extremely valuable, the master's house and part of the school, and the ground upon which those other buildings have been erected, for you must remember that the ground upon which the buildings have been erected by subscription, is ground belonging to the Trust; and you must remember that valuable property has been swept away, in order to give place for those buildings to be erected. I have also omitted 76 I. 13 5. 4 d., interest upon 2,000 /. on mortgage, and, what really ought to be added, invested in three per cent, consols, to redeem mortgage, 100/. What is that mortgage? The monej^s expended on the erection of those buildings, and those buildings are upon the property of the foundation, and yet they are used for the education, not of foundationers, but of the foreigners. It therefore comes to this, that that allegation contained in the Report (and I was extremely sorry on reading the Report to sec that such a statement was made), that those boys are being educated, not at the expense of the Trust, but by means of the payments of the foreigners, is untrue. I am sorry for it, not only on account of the principle which I think so highly desirable to see carried out in this as in other liberal professions, that the masters being, as they are, well paid, should exercise their talents gratuitously sometimes for the good of the public, but also in order to cement the bonds of society, and especially to influence those who look up to the clergy as their natural source of instruction, and who would be the better for seeing that they were doing gratuitous work ; 1 say, 1 wish it covdd be said that the masters of Harrow were, of their own proper motion, and from a feeling of duty, educating a number of boys gratuitously. I think it would be an advantage to that particular school, and would do good to the cause of education generally, if, like the members of ev(Ty other liberal profession, the masters of Harrow were to do work gra- tuitously. It is said, in the third place, that there is a danger of the school being swampcu by new comers upon the foundation ; I say that this is an allegation entirely destitute of proof. It is only necessary to look at the figures in the Commissioners' Report to see that for the last 30 or 40 years the numbers have not increased. I am quite aware that much has been said upon this matter, and that this opposition has been alleged to be; what is called vulgarly in the bricks and mortar interest. I shall be able to show you most conclu- sively that this is a case in which property is not in the slightest degree inter- ested, or if interested at all, in a way entirely diflferent from what your Lord- ships, at the first blush of the matter, would seem to consider ; until a very recent period Harrow remained a village. The- numljcr of foundationers show that there has been no increase of them ; and if there were, have not the governors am})le power to prevent an undue and unmeet number of scholars being admitted to swamp the foundation ? The governors having it in their own hands, nobody can be admitted of his own right. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.J 87 right. It is a qualified riglit, which can he exercised only through the 15*11 May 1865. governors, and with the assent of the schoolmasters. Those two things must combine before a boy can be admitted into the school ; it is to be " a meet and competent number, with the assent of the schoolmaster." And the fact stares one in the face that up to the present time the number of foundationers has not increased ; there is a certain specified number, and the number at pi'esent does not exceed the average.. But the truth is with respect to Harrow, that until a very recent period the w;uit of water at Harrow was so great, that no one would build there. There has l)een ^^ithin the last few years a great increase of building ; why ? If it has been on account of the benefits of the school, why is it that they have been so recently discovered ? We have specu- lative builders coming there to build now, who did not come at any previous time. !jut I say, looking at Harrow in its position as a suburb of London, the number of buildings there is very small. The reason has been that it was extremely difiieult to obtain a supply of water until a few years ago when an Artesian well was sunk. Before that time it was difficult to obtain any addi- tional number of inhabitants ; what foundation is there, therefore, for this third allegation that the school will be swamped with foundationers r It is shown that in time i)ast, with the inc^rease of buildings, there has been no increase in the number of foundationers, and it is quite evident that in time to come, without the clauses of this Bill, the governors will have ample power to restrict the number, as they have had in times past to 23, or whatever they may think a meet and competent number of the children of the inhabitants to derive the advantages of the foundation. Now, 1 will call your Lordships' attention to our oljjections to this Bill : we say in the first place that the preamble is in opposition to the clauses of the Bill. The preamble states, at the second line from the bottom of the first page, " And whereas the said Commissioners have made their report, and thereby recommend various changes in the government, management, and studies of the said schools, with a view to promote their greater efficiency, and to carry into effect the main objects of the founders thereof." Now, how can it be said that the object of this Bill is to carry into effect the main objects of the founder, when the 20th clause in express terms destroys in reality the intentions of the founder ? The 20th clause says that the privilege of the free education at Harrow, which has been established and kept up for 300 years, doing an im- mensity of good, and benefiting all classes, shall be abolished. How can it be said that the preamble is carried out by the clauses of the Bill, or that the in- tentions of the founder are at all considered in it ? The 20th clause reads thus : " The privilege of free education at Harrow School, and the right of preference in elections to John Lyon's scholarships which are given by the founder's statutes to children of inhabitants of the parish of Harrow, and all privileges and rights of preference thereby given to the kins- folk of the founder, shall cease, except in the case of persons residing in the parish of Harrow, at the time of the passing of this Act, in which case all of the children of such parents born at or within 10 years after the passing of this Act shall be entitled in same manner as if this Act had not passed." It is true that that clause defers the operation of the Bill for a quarter of a century, that nothing can be done under it if the property is to be considered as of the same value as it is at present. But the preamble states, that the intention of the Bill is to conserve and carry out more efficiently the intentions of the founder, and the 20th clause in direct terms strikes it away. This is also in direct antagonism and opposition to the 8th and 9th clauses of the Bill. Chairman.^ Let me direct j^our attention to clause 22, in which you will see that the governing bodies of Harrow and liugby respectively, shall, before the first day of January 1867, regard being had to the local objects contemplated by the founders of those schools, and to the altered circumstances of the present time, lay a scheme before Her Majesty in Council for a separate school. Mr. Michael.^ Precisely, my Lord, and we are here to-day to say that that is first killing a man and afterwards reviving and sustaining him by artificial respiration or galvanism. We say, in the first place, you entirely and unequi- vocally destroy the foundation ; and then you give powers in the 22d clause to resuscitate the man you have slain ; and to establish something which will be of no use whatever to the inhabitants. Where is the call and demand on (90.) L 4 the g3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i.-.ih May 1865. tlie part of the inhaliitants fortius separate school ? And how would a separate school work m connection with a larg»; r establishment, such as Harrow School r I am bound to say, if you pass this Bill, I have great doubts, looking at the clauses to which we are not so antagonistic as wo are to some others, whether it will be possible to work the Bill and carry out those clauses, for if you turn back to the 8th and 9th clauses you will find there that powers are given to make statutes, subject to the restrictions hereinafter mentioned with respect to the foundation. But you have already said, by destructive legislation, there shall be no foundation. You have destroyed it ; you cannot construct again that which is entirely in so many words destroyed. We are perfectly willing that Harrow School shall be reconstructed, that under these enabling clauses, statutes shall be framed for that purpose with proper restrictions ; but we do say that a separate school at Harrow not only is not wanted, but would mate- rially injure the school which is now estabUshed. Earl oi Derby.'] 1 thhik you are hardly quite correct in what you stated about the 20th clause, that the Act will not come into operation for 25 years. It will onlv come into partial operation for that time, but the exception is only with resjject to '' persons residing in the parish of llai'row at the time of the passing of this Act, and all the children of such parents born at or within 10 years after the passing of tbis Act." But any person hereafter coming to reside at Harrow will be subject to the; provisions of this Act. Mr. Michael.] Yes, my l^iord, but 1 think I can show your Lordships that we shall have a sufficient number of children exclusively to obtain the advantages for 25 years. Earl of Dcrhi).~\ You said that tlie Bill would not come into operation for 25 years, but to the exclusion from the benefits of the foundation of persons hereafter coming to reside at Harrow the Act will come into immediate operation. Mr. Michael.] 1 say that the present inhabitants, under this clause, would have a prior claim to any future residents, and they will take care to have a suflicient number of eliildren to keep the foundation lull at least for 25 years. Lord Lyttelton.] You add together the 10 years mentioned in the clause and 15 years for the age of tlie l)oys r Mr. Michael.] Yes, that comes to 25 years ; and I sav that when tlie 2()th year commences, then for the first time will six new children be admitted, or 25 years, the inhabitants will have a right to say, " Here are our six children, we demand admission for them." Therefore, for 25 years to come that clause will practically be inoi)orative. Earl Slanhope.] Are the children of those who arrive in Harrow admitted according to the date of their residence in the parish .' Mr. Michael.] It has l)ecn according to the date of the application. Earl Staithdjje.] But the application might he made as soon by a person who had arrived the year l)efore. as by a person wlio had been residing in Harrow for 20 \ ears ' Mr. Michael.] It would l)e a grave question whether, under the pronsions of this Bill, that order should be observed: but it is quite clear, taking the number of the inhabitants of Harrow, that there would l)e about 180 boys requiring education at the school during ihat time, therefore it cannot come into opera- tion for the present. Chairman. \ It would l)t no more a grave ([ucstion then than it is now, ac- (;ording to your showing, because you say that the children are now only admitted oii the foundation at the discretion of the governors, and with the 2. In those 18 years I find 201 separate names of boys who were on the foundation. 355. Might I ask what means you had of knowing whether in the course of those 18 years, amongst a number of over 200, a greater proportion than you state would not have been able to pay the fees ? I have taken out every single name, and I have known every single parent of those boys. I have gone carefully through it with a friend of mine who knew it as well as myself, and to the best of my belief (I cannot say more), 122 could not have been in Harrow School without the benefits of the foundation. I have no means actually oi knowing it exeej)t from my own knowledge of their parents. Sfjt). Bishop 0/ London.] What is the difference of fees paid by the founda- tioners and by home boarders ? Foundationers jiay 17 /• 17 •'>• P<'i' annum, and home boaaders pay 417. 5 «. ; there is, therefore, a diil'erence of nearly 2.') /. 357. Ford Lyltcllon (To Mr. Michael).] All tliat you say al)out home boarders is, tliat their ])osition maybe interfered with under the 15th clause; there is nothing positive against home boarders, is there ? Mr. 3Iic had.] Fxcept t lie limitation of the numbers in the school ; it is only by inference we say they may be injured. 35^- Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 9^ 358. Mr. Michael. (To the Witness).'] Are you in a position to state that the /'^'■^'J.l^^ privilege of sending boys to tlie school is very higlily prized by the inhabitants imnmguivu of Harrow ? 15th May iSC,-^,. Undoubtedly it is. . 359. Earl of //rt?To?«/w.] Will you state distinctly the difference between a honie-boarder and a foundationer; a home-boarder is the son of a resident, is not he ? A home-boarder is the son of a resident in Harrow, paying the full school fees for his education. 360. A foundationer is also the son of a resident in the parish, and is ad- mitted to special privileges r Yes. 361. How is he admitted to those privileges ? By application to the master or to the secretary of the school. 362. How does that take place ; on a representation of certain circum- stances ? No, he simply applies as a resident. If he is an inhabitant of Harrow he has a right to be put upon the foundation. 363. How then is he distinguished from a home-boarder? Because some parents will not apply for that permission ; some apply and others do not ; some prefer paying the vfhole fees. 364. Then a foundationer, by virtue of his becoming so, professes to be the son of a parent of less pecuniary means ? Not always, I think. 365. C/iairman.'] For instance, a parent may come and take a house, and immediately put his son to school ; that son would then be a home-boarder if his father wished it, either on the ground of his not having resided there the necessary time, or his not having made an application as a resident 1 Yes. 366. Earl Stanhope.'] I presume that, as at Rugby, there is no limitation as to the number of sons of one family ? None whatever. 367. Mr. Michael] Some residents at Harrow have had seven sons educated at the school, have they not ? Yes ; some have had seven sons foundationers. 368. Chairman.] No foundationer is admitted as a foundationer except through the governors, with the assent of the masters ? No. Mr. Michael] I believe the course adopted is this : it was stated by Dr. Butler, in his evidence, that he continually has applications made to him to admit boys ; he then directs the parents to write to the solicitor, the solicitor lays the application before the governors, who direct that an answer should be sent to the head master. 1 think the head master then institutes a test examination, and if that is satisfactory the boy is admitted on the foundation. If the parents wish him to be admitted as a home- boarder they only apply to the headmaster; and, I think, up to this time, as a matter of course, boys have been admitted upon its being shown that they have their natural guardian living at Harrow, as home-boarders, instead of as foreigners at a master s house. 369. Earl of Harrowbi/.] Is there a test examination for the home-boarders ? Mr. Michael] There is no test for a home-boarder, as such ; there is a test for everybody admitted into the school. 370. Earl of Harroiobi/.] It is a test equally for home-boarders and founda- tioners ? Mr. Michael] I believe it is the same for all. (90.) N 371. Mr. 98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. IV. 371. Mr. Michael. (To the tniness).'] Has the school itself very largely in- Cunnirigham. creased dui'ing the past few years ? It has 15th May 1865. 372. Has the number of foundationers increased in the same proportion ? No, certainly not. 373. Has it increased at all? In the 18 years ending 1862 there were 2/ foundationers on the average; at the present time there are 31, therefore it lias increased four in the last three or four years over the average of the 18 years preceding. 374. Have you any mode of accounting for the fact that the number of foundationers has remained stationary '! 1 believe that the prime cause of the foundationers remaining stationary is that hindrances have been put by the two last head masters tending to prevent boys who reside outside of Harrow from attending the school. 1 think that there would have been a larger number if those hindrances had not been put in their way. 375. Chairman.'] When you speak of the two last head masters, do you mean Dr. Vaughan and Dr. Butler ? Yes. 376. What sort of hindrances have they put in the way of the boys living at a distance ? There have been two principal hindrances ; the first is the boys having to answer to their names on the half-holidays. 377. You mean the bills ? Yes ; the boys are very often not out of school until five or 10 minutes after one o'clock ; they have to go home then as fast as they can, and have to be up at the school again a little before two o'clock ; a quarter before two o'clock ; and that is a complete hindrance to boys who live more than about half a mile or three quarters of a mile away from the school itself. 378. It would be scarcely fair to say that that has been imposed as a hindrance by the head master upon the foundationers or the residents in Harrow, because you could scarcely e.xpect that a regulation Avhich was con- sidered good for 460 boys should be altered merely to meet the convenience of 30 or 40 who happened to be in a different category ? Pardon me ; when my eldest brother was at Harrow the home-boarders did not attend bills at all, and I believe Dr. Vaughan would not contradict me in saying that he put that bill on to prevent the increase in the number of foun- dationers. The parents of foundationers have over and over again applied for it to be taken off, but it has been refused. 37Q. Earl of Derby.'] When was that bill first put on? Since Dr. Vaughan went to Harrow, some 14 or 15 years back, probably. 380. Then previous to that what interval of time had the boys ; what was the next bill after one o'clock ? I think up to that time it was at three or half-past three. 3S1. Earl of Ilarrouby.] It was not put on to meet the circumstance of the railroads giving increased facilities for the boys to absent themselves ? No, certainly not ; because if boys are in their boarding houses when the clock strikes one, and go home for their dinners, no one can say that there can be any need for them to go up to a bill again as soon afterwards as two o'clock. 382. Mr. Michael.'] Is there much land to be obtained for the erection of small houses around the school ? There is not much land close round the school where houses could be built. 383. Cluiirviaii.] Therefore, the existence of a school there can be no detri- ment to that neighbourhood ? 1 was asked in reference to there being houses ])uilt, as to whether there could be houses built close roiuid the school ; there is not much space for them there. 384. The learned counsel in his opening statement has informed us that the establishment SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE IMJBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 99 establishment of Harrow school there has bcu-ii a i^reat fhitriinont to the landed Mr. J. I'/. property in that neighbourhood; do you think that has been the case? Cunninyhavi. I have not thought about that subject, I have no doul)t that if the school , ~ were to be taken away we should soon have a very large class of people come to ^ ' "^ ' ^' reside at Harrow who do not reside there now. Take for instance the places all round Harrow, such as Harrow Weald, on the opposite side of the hill, and Stanmorc Hill ; fine houses are rising there, as they are all round Harrow. If the school were to be taken away from Harrow, I think good houses would be built, and would soon be occupied by residents of another class ; persons who are now hindered from coming. 385. Earl of Derby. A^ Are the rents about flarrow rising or falling now r The rates have not altered much in the last 8 or 10 years. 1 think they are pretty stationary, except our Board of Health rates. 3S6. The rents of the houses I spoke of? I think they are about stationary now. 387. Eail of Devo)i^ What would you say as to the assessable value of the parish ; has it increased in the last 10 years r Yes, certainly, because there has been a large number of houses built in the parish. 388. There has been an increase of houses ? Yes, of small houses mainly ; of the class suitable for the higher poor. There has been a very large increase of houses for them. 389. Chairman.] Then you, as representing the inhabitants of Harrow, to a certain extent would consider tliat the value of property would increase, and that the neighliouriiood would be improved by the removal of the school r 1 should not like to go so far as that. 390. That is what I gathered from your previous answer; you think that if the school were removed, there would be very handsome houses erected there ? There certainly would be, 1 believe. 391. I infer from that, then, that the neighbourhood would be rather benefited by the removal of the school than otherwise ? It would not be, I think, injured for long. 392. Such is the opinion of the inhabitants of Harrow, is it ? I think so. It is a beautiful place. 393. That the removal of the school would be a great advantage to them ? I should not like to say that. 394. Would the inhabitants of Harrow say that they had not derived advan- tage from the establishment of the school there ? They codd not say so, certainly. 39,5. They could scarcely wish its removal, could they ? I do not think that they would say that they wished its removal. 396. Then they would not wish for the improvement of the property which would be consequent upon the removal of the school ? No. 397. Earl Stanhope.] In what year did you first obtain an Artesian well? I think about 12 or 14 years ago. 398. How was water obtained previously r From the ponds and ditches and drains, and from every nasty place in the neighbourhood of Harrow. I believe that up to 13 years ago there was hardly any source left untried for getting water round Harrow. 390. Mr. Michael.] There are no water-bearing strata there ? No. 400. Earl StanJiope.] Since that Artesian well has been sunk, have you found buildings increase there with great rapidity ? Yes. (90-) N 2 401. Mr. 15th May 1S65. 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. W. 401. Mr. Michael.'] Have you gone through the hst of Iiome-boarders also Cuntnngham. ■^ij-j^ i\^^ same intention ? Yes, I have. 402. Do you think tliat a large proportion of those persons could have paid for the benefits of education, if their children had been obliged to hve in the masters' houses? I believe extremely few of them could have done so. 403. What is your general opinion as to tlie result of the exercise of the privilege of tlie foundation ? It has been highly beneficial to Harrow and the inhabitants of Harrow. 404. What, in your opinion, has been its influence upon the school generally ? It has brought to Harrow a very large class of persons who, by their know- ledge and by their experience of school matters, have very much helped the school, and at the same time they have helped the head master by their moral influence and by the weight of their own characters. 405. Chairman.'] Are you alluding to what we have called sojourners? Yes ; I do not consider them as sojourners, but that is the name your Lord- ship has fixed upon them. 406. You understand what we mean by that name ? Yes. 407. It means jiersons who come to reside at Harrow, in order to benefit by the foundation for their children ? Yes. 408. You consider that the residence of those persons has been very useful to tlie masters of Harrow r I am quite certain of it ; they are men of the highest position ; Indian civil servants, and that class of men ; persons whose character and influence, and weight, is decidedly felt in Harrow, and felt amongst the boys of Harrow, and whose example is extremely useful. 409. I gathered from the speech of the learned counsel that it was chiefly widows who came as sojourners there r Out of the whole number of 201, which I was speaking of just now, there have been, as far as I know, only 43 who have been the sons of widows. 410. Lord LijUelton.] Do you conceive that the majority of sojourners remain after the education of their ciiildren is completed ? I should think about half of them remain in Harrow. 411. The rest of them would be properly called sojoui*ners, would they not ? They are almost all of them people who remain in Harrow for some years ; they are people who take houses for seven years, or more ; 10 years, perhaps. 412. Cluiinnan.] You think that a great advantage is derived from the sojourners ; first, on account of the services they render to the masters ; and, secondly, on account of the social influence they exercise upon the school ? Yes. 413. And the advantage they are to the system of education in the school? Yes. 414. Lord Houghton.] Would you say that they form a class of gentlemanlike society, both for the masters and the boys ? Undoubtedly. 415. Mr. Michael] What has been the influence of the home-boarder and foundationer system uijon the general tone of the school ? I think it has helped ; those boys have been an extremely excellent class of boys, and have done exceedingly well. 416. Chairmau.] What class of boys do you refer to? The foundationers. Within the hist eight or nine years, three of tlie founda- tioners have been invited from their parents' houses to take the position of head boy SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 101 boy in a muster's house. My own son was invited by one of the largest houses Mr. J. W. in the school to come from my house into that house to be the head of the Cun uiuf^h nm. house; and in two other cases the same thing has happened within the last 15th May i86r. seven years, or it may be eight years. 417. Was the request complied with ? Yes, certainly. 418. But you have no reason to say, I conclude, that either foundationers, as such, or home-boarders, are more distinguished in the school than other boys ? No, certainly not. 419. Mr. Michael.'] But they have held their own ? Yes ; certainly not more than that. 420. Earl of Harrowby.'] In what manner is this influence of the residents felt upon the school ? In the society of the place ; the influence is exerted on the boys in their parents' homes : their parents lay themselves out for it for the most part. 421. Do the boys who are boarding in their masters' houses partake in any way of the hospitality of the residents ? There is only, 1 think, one evening in the week when it is allowed, and I believe only in the higher part of the school. 42'j. I want to know in what way this useful influence of the residents is felt upon the boys ? They ai-e very often in the houses of the residents ; they go there at all hours. 423. Earl of Powis.^ Are the home-boarders an industrious and a hard- working class generally ? Yes, I think they are so : I think their parents' homes rather bring that about ; they are not exposed to some of the troubles of the boarding houses in the evening ; they can work harder at night, perhaps ; I should think, on the whole, that they were an industrious class. 424. Mr. Michael.'] What has been their position in the athletic exercises of the school ? They have done extremely well, certainly during the last few years. 425. Earl of Devon.] With regard to one class of the home-boarders, namely, the foundationers, I see in the evidence taken before the Commission, this question is put by the noble Lord in the chair, " Are the foundationers children of the tradesmen of the place ?" There is scarcely any instance of it ; I believe in no instance is any son of a Harrow tradesman now a member of the great school." Does that answer correspond with your experience ? Yes, now it is so, certainly ; in the last 18 years I do not see one name of a Harrow tradesman among the foundationers; before that time there were some ; that was referred to by Mr. Michael. There were both tradesmen's and farmers' sons before that time, but in the last 18 years I do not find any such names. 426. To what do you attribute that, seeing that they must naturally have been persons of the class contemplated by John Lyon ? I think it is mainly because the tradesmen of Harrow up to the present time have withdrawn their sons from education at an earlier age than that at which they would have been fitted for the Harrow School. 427. At what age do they put them into places of business? I should think that they have been withdrawn up to this time at about 14 years of age. 428. Earl oi Harrowby.] Has there been a progressive rising of the age at which boys are admitted into the school at Harrow ; was there a lower class there originally, as at Rugby ? I have never heard of one; I do not know whether there ever was one or not. (90.) N 3 429- You 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Air. J. W. 42g. You know that at Rugby there were lower classes where cliildren were Cunningham. admitted vei y early ? 15th May 1865. "^^^^^ ^'^^ ii&^^&r so that I know of at Harrow ; they had a class like tliat at Rugby ; there may have been one at Harrow ; I do not know. 430. Earl Stan/iope.] Can you state, from your knowledge of the feelings of the tradesmen at Harrow, what would be their o])inion as to the establishment of a commercial school which should give their sons advantages for starting in business as distinguished Irom a classical education ? There is a very strong feeling among the tradesmen at Harrow that they have a right to send their sons to this school ; they would like it very much indeed if classes were to be established below those which exist now, into which they might send their sons at a certain age, in order that they might either go up into the higher school if they showed sufficient knowledge and ability, and so forth, to go on in classics, or that they might branch off and go into their own shops, or into trade in some way. 43^ -Bishop of London.'] Supposinji that to be their wish, you, as connected with King's College, must be well acquainted wiih education ; do you realjv think it would be advantageous that a pei-son who is to be a tradesman should have tlie same education up to the age of 14 as a person going to a university ? Yes, I think so up to that age. 432. "Vou are of that opinion, looking at the great difficulty of acquiring a thorough acquaintance with the classical languages, unless you begin much earlier than 14, and commence the study of Greek at 11 or 12 r I should say not 14 : up to 13 boys might, as a whole, be worked all together. 433- Earl oi Devon.] What is your view in reference to the public opinion in Harrow as to the English forms ? The people of Harrow would certainly prefer lower classes in the existing school ; they do not wish to have a separate school. 434. i hen you do not agree with the opinion which was given before us upon the Commission, " The English form is accepted by tradesmen as more satisfactorily answering what they conceive to be the needs of their children "f No, I do not ; I differ from that. I believe that the tradesmen of Harrow have been dissatisfied. 435- The answer to the next question is, " The class of tradesmen and farmers in and about Harrow is not very large, " is that so ? That was so in 1862 ; there are more now than there were then. 436. It is stated here that in the opinion of Dr. Butler, when the Eughsh form was established the tradespeople and farmers of the parish were very glad to have it : " They accepted it as a most important advantage to themselves ;" does that coincide with your experience at the time ? I think, when the school first came out the peojjle of Harrow were extremely thankful for it, but I think they saw very soon that it was not what they wanted, and it has certainly never been accepted by them as what they wished for. 437. In wliat resjiect were their expectations disappoinied ; what did they look to receive which they have failed to get r Up to that time they had not had anything at all, and I think they thought it would be a boon when it first came out, 438. Bishop of London.] Had they not all the advantages of the present foundation r Tlu-y had all the advantages of the foundation if they had thought fit to make use of I hem. 43Q. Lord LytidUm.] I do not quite understand why they have not done so? I think mainly because there have not been any classes low enough for them. 440. Earl of Derby.] But then supposing those low classes to be established in a separate school, and that the boys, according to the progress they might make in that school, w< re drafted off into the n])per school, that would prac- tically give them all the benefits intended by the original foundation, would it not ? Yes. 441. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 103 441. Is it contemplated, su()pnsing the establishment of these lower forms, Mr../. W. that tht-' boys should not be drafted off aceording to the progress they make Cunningham. from the lower school into the upper school, thereby obtaining the benefit of j^th May 1865. the original foimdation ? What Dr. Butler proposes is, that if there are any surj)lus funds after the English school had been properly provided for, there should be then certain foundation exhibitions which should be open to competition to the boys who are residing in Harrow, and of course all boys who have been in those lower classes or this lower school would compete for them if they thought tit. 442. It was contemplated then that ihey should only rise by competitive examination, and not by passing a certain standard ? I think it was only by competitive examination. 443. Lord Li/ttelloit.'] Are the home-boarders children of farmers and trades- people ill Harrow ? They are. 444. Are they of the same class exactly as the foundationers are ? Yes, precisely. 445. Tliey are, in fact, those who would be upon the foundation if they could ? Hardly so; they are those who would be upon the foundation if their parents went through the form of applying for them to be placed there, but from one cause or another they prefer paying the fees. 446. They are not boys of a higher class than the foundationers ? They are boys, on the whole, I think, whose parents are better off. 447. Earl Powis.] What was the particular cause which caused the failure of this English form ? I think that the tradesmen have never been satisfied with it ; they have always felt strongly that they had a right to send their boys on to the founda- tion of the school, and they were not satisfied with this school which seemed to be a sort of substitute for that right. 448. Earl of Derby.'] Supposing the system were this, that there were these junior classes into which the tradesmen might send their sons, with the right of their being advanced into the upper school, subject to their having made a sufficient amount of progress, do you consider that in that case the tradesmen's sons would gladly avail themselves to a considerable extent of the right of going into that upper school ? I do. 449. According to your|view then, that would be strictly in accordance with the intention of the founder ? I think it would. 450. Chamnan.] You stated that one hindrance which was ]:)ut in the w^ay of the sons of the tradesmen of Harrow going into the school was the bills, which interfered with their going home to their meals ; those bills would not interfere with the sons of tradesmen living in the town, would they ? No. 4.51. They would be just upon the same footing as the boys in the different boarding houses r Yes, just so. 452. Why, then, have not ihe tradesmen availed themselves of the founda- tion ? I believe that] the reason is mainly that the classes have not been sufficiently low for them. 453. That is to say, that they could not send their sons there early enough, and that they could not leave soon enough ? Yes. 4.54. That is to say, that the education given at Harrow is not that which suits the sons of tradesmen ? (90.) N 4 That 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J.W. That the education given at Harrow up to this time is not suited to the sons un mng tarn. ^^ tradesmen, simply because it commences at too late an age for them. 15th May 1865. ^^,, J daresay you were present when Dr. Butler addressed the inhabitants of Harrow, were you not? Yes. 456. He there developed his plan for a school which he thought would meet the wishes of the inhabitants ? Yes. 457. In what respect do you think that plan will not meet them, because it appears to me that he does contemplate the boys going to that school early ; he does contemplate their receiving there the sort of education that they want, and he would not object to their leaving at an earlier period than is usual at the school, or to a transfer from this lower form to the great school of boys who were likely to be successful in the upper school. One of the main (objections to Dr. Butler's scheme is, that it entirely destroys the foundation of John Lyon as it exists ; we wish to preserve the foundation. 458. Has not that de facto been destroyed by the altered circumstances of the times ? No ; John Lyon's statutes are the statutes under which we have gone on for 300 years, and they are as capable of being carried out to-day as they were the day when they were made. 459. But if they are to be strictly carried out according to the plan of John Lyon, that can only be done as far as the funds go ; now we know that the greater part of those funds are alienated irrecoverably. I believe that we literally have only about 1 ,000 /. a year which we can deal with, and which is subject to certain dead weights, as you are aware, for augmenting stipends of curates, giving some assistance to the school, and so forth. Now, with those funds of about 700 /. a year, can there be a school carried on in exact confor- mity with the bequest of John Lyon ? I believe that we can preserve in the upper school of Harrow a very sub- stantial advantage for the boys who now have the benefit of the foundation, and can institute lower classes also. 460. With those funds ? With those funds. 461. Keeping exactly to the instructions of John Lyon, and providing simply that classical education ? I think so. And your Lordship has not taken into account at all in the sum which your Lordship speaks of any value whatever for tiie school buildings or for thtrhead master's house ; all those things ought to be fairly valued. 462. Those school buildings are quite independent of the bequest of John Lyon ; they were not built out of the trust funds ? I beg your Lordship's pardon ; you will find by the actual published ac- counts, which are the only things I can go by, that in the last 50 years, according to the Blue Book, there have been 440 /. a year spent out of the trust funds u])on the buildings; that is expressly stated. They begin by stating that this expenditure fairly represents what has been done by them for the last 50 years, and in the year's accounts which are published there there is the item of 170/. spent on fresh buiUlings, and 2(54/. on the sustentation of the existing buildings, so that for the last 50 years there has been 440 I. per annum spent out of John Lyon's funds upon the buildings. 463. Hav(! not there been subscriptions amounting to upAvards of 30,000 I. for the master's house and other buildini;s r Not for the master's house ; tlu- master's house was built solely out of John Lyon's funds, 1 believe. 464. I think that was not the case ? I beheve the existing master's house was. 465. Mr. MirlKtcll Is it not the fact also that for tliose buildings very valuable gromul belonging to the trust has been appropriated Undoubtcdlv; 1 might also say that part of the existing buildings were put up SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] J 05 up by a charge of 1 /. that was put into eav\\ boy's l)ill for several years J^''' /' /^' in succession every term ; that was .J /. m the year, and that money was l_ paid by the foundationers and the; home boarders just as much as by tiie 15th May i8C,o. foreigners. 466. Chairman^ For how long was that 1 I. ])ut on ? It was put on for some years ; I cannot say how long. 467. For four or five years ? We paid it for lour or five years. 468. How many home boarders were there? There were 27 foundationers and 10 home boarders at the time, all of whom paid it. 469. £. 1 was put on ? £. 1 a term ; 3 /. a year. 470. That is 40 /. a year for five years ? AH I wanted to show was, that we bore our fair share of the expense of the building ; I do not claim more than that. 471. Mr. Michael.'] Upon this ground, which was taken for that purpose, I believe there were several houses which liave been destroyed ? There were some houses. 472. In your opinion, would it at all influence the school injuriously to have the restriction as to horses or ponies removed, and to allow boys to ride from school by omnibus, and so forth, home to dinner ? Of course you would have to alter all the regulations of the school, not only that which refers to coming early in the morning. I should not conceive that there would be any harm in the boys riding or driving over, of course in the morning ; I should find some trouble as to afternoon bills and so on. I do not know how that would be managed. 473. How have the foundationers mixed with the other classes in the school ? Extremely well. 474. Has there been any difhculty whatever, or has anything been known at all as to whether a boy was a foreigner or a foundationer, so far as treatment in the school went ? No. 475. Bi.shop of London.] Does that apply to tradesmen's sons as well as others in the school ? There are no tradesmen's sons ; there have been none there since I have known it. 476. Lord Liittelton.] In fact the foundationers and home boarders and foreigners are the same class of boys ? Yes, just so. 477. Bishop of London.] Is it your contention that John Lyon, in his founda- tion by his will, contemplated such a class as are at present upon the foun- dation receiving tlie benefits of it ? Yes, I think he did. 478. Gentlemen coming to reside there ? Yes, and a lower class also. 470. You allow that at present John Lyon's will is not carried out? Not completely. 480. You say that there ought to be junior forms ; how many do you think there ou^-ht to be in order to make it more consonant to the will of the founder ? I should think three would be sufficient. 481. How many boys do you contemplate would attend those three forms ? It would depend veVy much upon the payment, of course. (90.) 482. Supposing 106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ^nmiaZm "^^^^ Supposing that they were free foundationers ? !_ ■ I should think 50 boys probably. 5 th May 186 5. ^83. The SOUS of tradsmen ? Yes, I should think there would be 50 now. 484. Of course, if there were three forms, you would require three masters ? For three forms they would require three masters, I dare say. 485. And those three masters must each have about 300 /. a year ? No, I think not. 486. What do you think would be the proper payment ? The head master of them ought to have 300 /. a year, and the others cer- tainly a smaller sum than that. 487. £. 200. ? £.120 or 150/. 488. That would make 600/. a year out of the 700 /. which the foundation has to bestow; that would nearly swallow the whole foundation, would it not? The foundation has more than that to bestow. 489. I thought it was stated to be 700 /. I only know that the expenditure of the foundation, and therefore suppose their income also is now about 1 ,269 /. ; that, of course, excludes all the school buildings, and all the value of the house. 490. I think we were told that about 700 /. a year is now spent upon educa- tion in the school r I think it is 900 /. 491 . £■ 600 of that you would take for the three new masters ? Of course each boy would pay a certain sum. 492. But tliose are foundationers ? I think each boy ought to pay something. 493. Lord Lyttclton.~\ Is not the whole endowment appropriated at present? Certainly it is, in some way. 494. Then, how would you get this 600 I. a year out of it, or even 500 /. r I should not have thought that some of the expenses th;it are now thrown upon the foundation ought to be borne by the foundation wholly ; not the 450 /. spent upon the buildings, certainly. 495. Chairman.'] What 450 /. upon the buildings do you refer to ? At present, about 450 /. a year is spent out of the funds upon the buildings. 496. Farl of Ilarrmvbi/.^ Are the whole expenses of the annual repairs of the buildings borne by the foundation ? I do not know that, but I kmiw that 260 I. is spent upon the sustentation of the old buildings in each year, and about 176/. on new buildings. 497. Chairniaii.] You also know, do you not, that a great deal in the way of repair, and ventilation, and warming of the school-rooms has been done by the head master because there have not been funds for doing it ? Yes, I believe that has been the case. 498. Lord Li/ttcltou.] How would you meet those repairs ? I think they ought to be paid in a larger proportion by the boys who are in the school now, by the foreigners. 499. Earl Powis.] Did I understand you to say that a portion of John Lyon's foundation had been alienated from the soiiool to the roads ? Yes, that was referred to in tlu; learned ( ounsers statement. 500. I see by this paper, that he made a specific becjuest of his lands, near Kiiburn, by a particular conveyance to the governors for the maintenance of a highway from Harrow to London; and by another deed he made a particular conveyance of his lands lying near Marylebone for another highway from Har- row to London ; that being the case, how can the governors set up a claim for the school to those two estates ? I have SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 107 I have not at all thought upon that subject ; I do not know the history Mr. J. iv. of it. 1 501. Earl of Carnarvon-'] From these words it would appear that there never '5tl> May i8G^. was any alienation at all of the money ? 1 am not aware whether these estates ever were given up to the uses of the school ; certainly not since I can remember. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. DANIEL WILTSHIRE SOAMES is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Micliad, as follows : 502. YOU are the Chairman, I believe, of the Hendon Board of Guardians? Mr.B.W.Soames. I am. 503. And a Commissioner of Income Tax, I believe? Yes. 504. You went to Harrow School as a boarder, I believe ? i did. 505. How many years were you there? Between two and three years. 506. Lord Lyttelton.'] You mean as a foreigner, do you not r As a foreigner. 507. Mr. 3JicIiael.] Was there any distinction at all in your time between foreigners and foundationers or home boarders ? I think not ; it was not known to the boys who was a foundationer or who was a home boarder. 50S. In your time did boys come from a distance to avail themselves of the privileges of the foundation ? They did. 509. Could you name specially any person you remember ? Yes, there were three sons of a clergyman who, at one time, lived at Pinner, of the name of Johnson, who afterwards went to reside on his own property at Harrow Weald, near where I now live ; there were two or three sons of a gentle- man, named Hamilton, living near to Sudbury ; and there were the Karslakes, the present eminent counsel, and his brothers, they were living in the town ; and Mr. Anthony TroUope, the present eminent novelist, was at one time living at Harrow Weald, and at another time in another part of Harrow. ,510. Chairman.'] About what time was this ? About the year 1830. 511. That was before the late Dr. Vaughan's time, was it not ? Yes. 512. At that time were there many sons of tradesmen taking the benefit of the foundation ? I think not ; I am not aware of any. 513. There were no sons of tradesmen of the town of Harrow that you are aware of on the foundation then ? I think not. 514. During the time you were there ? I think not. 515. Or in subsequent years ? I am not aware that there were. 516. There were no hindrances put in their way then, were there ? Not that 1 am aware of. 517. And you are not aware, are you, of any hindrances that have been placed in their way since that time, which make a difference in their feeling towards the foundation ? (90.) 2 I can J 5th May 1S65. 108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE Mr.D.U'.Soames. I can only speak from hearsay; I have heard that they have received dis- couragements, and so forth ; I am not prepared to say that that is so. 5 1 8. Those discouragements do not appear to have created a different state of things at present from that which is within your knowledge as having existed previously ? As a boy at school I should, of course, have had very little knowledge of what was going on between the master and the tradesmen. .519. You know that in your time no tradesmen's sons, were there ? Yes. 520. Previous to that time, then, those discouragements are supposed to have been imposed ? I merely know the fact that the tradesmen's sons were not there tlien ; 1 may, perhaps, be allowed to say upon that point that I think the purely classical education that is given at Harrow^, and the necessity for the previous expense of training to enter the school, would be some reason, if there were no other, for precluding the sons of tradesmen from entering the school at the early period of life at which the}' would go. 521. Mr. Michael.'] At the present time do persons residing in the outlying parts of Harrow avail themselves of the advantages of Harrow School ? They cannot do so, in consequence of the altered rules that have been made since I was at school. 522. Are you aware by whom those rules were altered? I think they were altered in the time of the late master. Dr. Vaughan. 523. Chairman.'] And previously to that time the sons of persons living at some distance from the school at Harrow, but within the parish of Pinner or Harrow, used to come there ? They did ; for instance, the persons of the names I have mentioned. 524. Do you know in what numbers they were? I have mentioned all the names that occur to me. 525. Those were persons availing themselves of the foundation? Yes, at the time I was there. 526. And you consider that this rule altering the hours and the having bills at inconvenient times have prevented certain persons having the rights of being foundationers from availing tliemselves of those rights r Undoubtedly ; I may instance ray own case : I am living within the parish of Harrow, and have two sons who at this moment I should send to Harrow but for the rules which have been altered since the time that I was at Harrow. 527. Which of those rules acts as a prohibition to you, and puts a veto upon your availing yourself of the foundation ? I may, perhaps, explain myself better by telling your Lordships how the rules have been altered. In my time a foundationer or a home boarder living at a distance, I think, only had to attend in school hours ; he was supposed to be under the care of his parents on the holidays and lialf holidays, and was not compelled to answer bills every two liours tln-oughout the afternoon, as the home boarders are at present, and as far as 1 am aware there was no restric- tion as to the mode in which they were allowed to get to school. As your Lordships are aware, the late master and the i)resent master also have objected to boys riding or being driven to the school. 528. Mr. Michael.] What parts of the parish of Harrow are excluded by that regulation r 1 think I may say all the parish except that lying innnediately round the school. 529. Earl Stanhope.] At what distance do you yourself reside from the school ? About two and a half miles or tliree miles, I sliould think. 530. Lord Lyttelton.] Do they actually forbid the boys being driven ? Yes. I can give your Lordship the answer that Mr. Hiitler gave to a question which I j)ut to him upon that point, if you will allow me. 531. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 109 531 . That is in the account of the fiulilic meeting- that took place ? Mr. IJ.W. Soames. Yes, it was at a meeting tiiat Mr. Butler (tailed of the; inhabitants. I put the ~ question to him, whether, with the view of this school being benefited in the '^ ^^ ^' way to which he alluded, the present restri(;tions would i)e withdrawn which prevented persons living in the dist;uit i)arts of the parish from being admitted to the school. I will not trouble you with all the answer. He said, " My own feeding is, that it is not desirable foi- the discipline of this great school that there should be a certain class of boys to whom the privilege of riding and driving should, practically, be conceded." 532. Mr. Michael.^ Is it within your knowledge that Mr. Hind, the Vicar of Pinner's son, was refused when he applied ? I have seen a letter from the present Head Master to Mr. Hind, the Incum- bent of Pinner, practically refusing to allow him to send his boy to school on a pony. Mr. Hind was enabled to borrow a pony of one of the masters, as it happened, and it would have been put up at the stables at the master's house, hut Mr. Butler did not think it right to allow him to avail himself of it. 533. Chah-man.'] Does Mr. Butler require all the boys to come on foot to school ? That is the practical result. 534. Do you consider that those bills are called too often in the school ? They may nut be called too often in the interest of the boys boarding at the masters' houses. That, of course, is a matter o'i which I can give no opinion ; but certainly they have the effect of practically excluding from the school all boys who do not reside within a very short distance of the school. 555- Would you desire that the system of the school in calling bills, that is to say, taking care that the l)oys account for themselves pretty frequently in the course of the day, should be altered to meet the case of a few founda- tioners to whom it is inconvenient. JSot as regards the whole school. ,536. You wish for different systems in the school then r It was the practice in the time of the present Archbishop of Canterbury and his predecessor, that home boarders who lived at a distance were supposed to be under the care of their parents, except in school hours. 537. Earl of Z>f;-6y.] Their parents were held answerable for their being at home at the times when they would otherwise have been answering to bill ? That was the theor)\ 538. Chair??/ ft 71.'] Do not you think that a boy who was absent from school more than other boys would be rather at a disadvantage ? He would attend the same school ; this would only refer to out-of-school hours. 539. Earl of Harrowhy.'] Tlie home boarders were always compelled to be as much in the school ? Yes, I think so ; they kept the same school hours. 540. It only affected their being called upon to show themselves out of school hours r Yes, every two hours in the afternoon. 541. 'Eaxloi Devon.'] What is the extreme distance of the furthest point of Harrow parish from the school ? I should think 4 or 4 J miles. 542. How far is Pinner church ? As nearly 3 miles as possible ; 23 I am told. 543. Are there residents at a distance of 4.^ miles in Harrow parish from the school, or is it open field ? No ; there are residents at the extreme limits on my side of the parish, and occupiers of good houses too. 544. Chairman.l I think you stated just now that you were present at the address delivered by Mr. Butler ? I was. (90.) O 3 545- In 110 MINUTES OF EVIDENC TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. D. W.Soames. 545. Ill which he proposed his scheme of a school, and said it was an im- provement on the English Form that was originally well accepted by the trades- T5t ]May 18 65. ^^^ ^^^^j f,,j.jj^pj.g ^f ^]^p place, but afterwards was not found to suit them ; he proposed therefore this school as an amendment upon it. You have since had time to consider that scheme ; what is your opinion upon it ? I think I must very much indorse the opinion that was given by Mr. Cunningham ; I think the tradesmen and farmers would not accept an educa- tion which marked them with any distinctive badge, and which introduced a separation and isolation between their sons and the rest of the boys. ,546. I will just read what Mr. Butler said in his speech, as to what the objections that were raised were. He said, " Does it not give you just pre- cisely tiie education for your sons, which, if you profess sincerely to value education, you ought to accept, and ought to accept as the true carrying-out of the intention of the founder ? But observe, that this is a boon only on one supposition. It is a boon if the real desire of the tradesmen and farmers of Harrow is to gain the benefits of the foundation in kind, and not by an in- direct equivalent. So long as the tradesmen and farmers say this, ' What we want is to secure through John Lyon the means of a satisfactory and practical education for oiu* children, and we are not satisfied with the indirect equivalent of a mere circulation of money through the presence of foreigners.' So long as that is their position, I sympathise with them, and I will do what I can to assist them to gain the education which they seek. But if this demand for education simply covers a demand for additional custom, if their desire in crying out for the maintenance of the foundation of John Lyon is, not that their sons should be educated, but that an ever-increasing stream of residents from a distance should be attracted to Harrow, in order that trade may be brisk, then I must take the lii^ert}' to say to them that they have no right to plead the foundation of John Lyon. The sums at the disposal of the governors are limited ; it is idle for them to say in one breadth, ' We wish to educate our sons at the expense of the estate,' and ' We wish to have an unlimited influx of residents who are to be rivals and competitors with us in availing themselves of the privileges of the foundation.' " What do the in- habitants of Harrow say to that ? I think they feel that there would be very great difficulties, in fact, that it would be almost impossible that a lower and separate school should answer. What they desire, as your Lordship has been told, is lower classes in the exist- ing school. They think that the masters of their school should hold the same position as t!ie other masters, and that no school which was conducted entirely separately would or could be beneficial. And I may mention one thing which I think the previous witness did not mention, namely, that there is some misconception as to the present English Form. I believe that it is not possible for a boy to rise from the present English Form into the upper school. 547. Earl of Hurroichy.'] You believe that the English form is not so con- stituted as to be a preparation foi- the great school. Yes ; Mr. Butler, in his evidence says, if 1 remember rightly, in the Blue Book, that the boys are admitted to the English Form in precisely the same way that they are admitted to the great school, and that they are, in fact, upon the foundation of John Lyon. 1 am told (I am not prepared of my own know- ledge to say so, but I believe there are other gcmtlemen here who will say so) that that is hardly the fact ; it is true that they are admitted through the foundation of John Lyon in the ordinary course, but then there is either some written, or at all events implied, understanding that they shall not in any way associate v.ith the other boys, and that they shall not rise into the up|)er school. 548. Chairwav.'] Then the tradesmen and farmers send their sons to London in preference to sending them to the English I'oiin ? I do not know where they go ; one gentleman, who resides near the Harrow Station, who is neither tradesman nor farmer, but a gcmtleman having business in London, told me that he sent his son from Harrow to the Merchant Taylors' School. 549. From ! SELECT COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] Ill .549. From the great school at Harrow ? Mr.D. W.Soames. He did not send him from the school ; he was precluded from sending him to school at Harrow, and sent him to the Merchant Taylors' School. '5'h May 1865. 550. That is to say, he did not choose to send him to Harrow School ? Practically he could not, living, as he did, near the Harrow Station; it is about a mile-aud a-half from thescliool. The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Rev. WILLI.AM MARSDEN HIND is called in; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 5,51. I BELIEVE you are the perpetual curate of Pinner? Bev. IV. M. Hind. I am. 552. Will you kindly state to their Lordships the circumstances under which you strove to obtain education for your sons at the Harrow School ? I may say that a little more than 6. 2 years ago I was offered one of the curacies of Harrow, and one of the great objects 1 had in accepting the curacy was, the advantage of Harrow School for the education of my sons : I had at that time two sons, one 10 years old and the other five. After some time, when my elder boy was sufficiently forward, he was placed upon the foundation. In the course of three years and a quarter the incumbent of Pinner died, and through the kindness of the family of the late vicar of Harrow I was nominated to that incumbency. The incumbency of Pinner was then under 70/. a year, with a house worth 30 guineas. I made an application to Mr. Butler to allow me to continue my son in the school, making these two requests ; first, that he should be allowed to ride over, and, secondly, that he should be excused from bills on half-holidays. The reason why I made this request was, that one of the assistant masters very kindly came to me and said, " I have a pony which I use for my boys in the holidays ; they are away at another si.hool during the time that Harrow School is at work, and this pony is completely at your service ; your son can ride it over every morning to my stables, and ride it back in the even- ing." Mr. Butler's answer was to the etl'ect that he could not admit the point that any boy shovdd ride ; that he had fully considered the matter some time before, and that he could not grant permission that any boy should be excused from bills. In justification, however, it is only fair to state, with respect to Air. Butler, that I made a third request, which third request was simply that in case he refused me these two previous requests, 1 should be allowed to place my boy with a personal friend in Harrow to board ; and his answer was to the effect that he had the strongest objection to any person boarding with any one in Harrow, except a parent or the natural guardian when the parent was deceased ; but that my case presented a pecular difficulty, that difficulty being that my son was already on the foundation ; therefore he was willing to permit that my boy should be boarded in this gentleman's house. 553. Choir»iaii.~\ This gentleman was not a master, was he ? No. 554. Not keeping a house ? Not keeping a house. After some time I found it necessary, for some reasons, to remove the boy, and send him to a grammar school at a distance. My second boy, who is now of an age to enter the school, 1 have never applied for; and he is at a grammar scliool at a considerable distance from Pinner. 555. You consider yourself precluded, by the regulations established at Harrow, of avaihng yourself of the privileges which you have from residence there r Undoubtedly I am. 1 have Mr. Butler's letter upon the subject. .556. Earl of Derby.'] Peing resident within the limits contemplated by the original foundation, you are precluded by the present regulations from availing yourself of it, by reason of the distance you are from the sc'.ool 1 Precisely so. (90.) 4 557- Lord 112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. W.M. Hind. 557. Lord Lyttelton.'] It is a matter v\ithin Mr. Butler's discretion to make what rules he pleases upon the subject, is it not ? •J5th May 1&C5. I very much doubt it, because .John Lyon's rules provide with respect to the distance. 558. You think that Mr. Butler goes beyond his due power ? I think so. 559. Bishop of London.'] But the governors could, of course, stop it at any moment ? I believe so. 560. There is no need of an Act of Parliam.ent to stop it ? I am not aware of that. 561. Earl of Poms.\ Is Pinner in the civil parish of Harrow ? It is not in the civil parish. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. THOMAS HEWLETT is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : Mr. T. Hcinlett. 562. YOU are a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons ? I am. 563. And I believe you have resided at Harrow for upwards of 40 years ? Yes, I have. 564. And, in conjunction with other gentlemen, have been the surgeon to the school? I have. 565. And I believe you have had five sons educated as foundationers? I have. 566. Will you state to the Committee their progress in the school ? The elder one was the captain of the school ; he obtained a John Lyon scholarship, and also the Gregory medal. The others all attained to monitor- ships. 567. Have you had great opportunities of observing the working of the school, and the benefits attached to the foundation '? I have, certainly. 568. Have you carefully observed the working of the home-boarder system? I have, very much so. 569. What is your impression with res]5ect to its influence on the school ? My impression is that it is materially for good ; it has influenced the tone, I think, of the school, particularly, jjerhaps, as to discipline; and the conduct of the boys has been very much more respectful since the home-boarder system has fully prevailed. 570. Chairman.'] To what extent do you consider that the home-boarder system prevails ; liow many home boarders are there ? It results very mucli from the influence of the; parents or the families of the boys who live there, and the admixture of the home boys with the foreigners generally. 571. How many home boarders are there in the school? Between 30 and 40. 572. Mr. Michael.] About 37, I tliink ? From 37 to 40. 573. Lord LijItcUon.] That is including the foundationers ? That is including the foundationers. 574. Chairvum.] Do you consider that those 37 home boarders can have any very important social influence ujjon the school or upon the masters ? I think SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 113 I think tluy have upon the school, principally from thci amalgamation of the Mr. T. Bewktt. foreigners with the home-hoarders, and th(! foreigners visiting at the home- boarder's houses ; it is that general friendship and amity between them which '5«h May 1865. has certainly exercised, according to my observation, a very nice influence upon the ])ubli(; school generally. .575. Has not that good effect been to a very limited extent ? I think not ; I think I can perceive an improvement in it for some years past. 576. Earl of IlarrOivbij.'] Is it very much among the elder boys ? It is the elder boys principally who mix with the families. .577- T^Iie influence might be larger over a small number of boys ? Yes. 578. Mr. Michael.'] You heard Mr. Cunningham's evidence; do you fully accord with it ? I accord with it entirely ; I respond to everything he said. I had an oppor- tunity of getting it up with him in some respects. 57q. Did vou hear Dr. Butler's scheme propounded? I did. 5S0. Do you think that would satisfy the wants and requirements of the inhabitants of Harrow ? I do not. .581. Would a separate school work well in Harrow? I do not think it would work so well as the lower class in the school, to which Mr- Cunningham alluded. 582. Bishop of London-'] What is there in this Bill, that has to do with home- boarders r It proposes, I think, to limit the number of home-boarders- 583- Lord Lyttelton.] You mean that you apprehend that the powers given in the Act, may be exercised to limit the numbers in the school ? Precisely ; it was with reference to an answer given by Mr. Butler, who savs, " I am much more anxious to limit the number of home-boarders, than of foundationers-" Lord Lytlellon-] I am aware that we, the Commissioners, recommended that the number in the school should be limited ; but all the Bill provides is, the manner of doing it- Mr- Michael] If your Lordship recalls what I had the honour of addressing to you upon this point, you will remember that we think it is desirable that, from being a regulation, it should be transferred to a statute in order that, if anything were done, which was likely to injure the home- boarders, we might have an opportunity of appealing to the Privy Council- We do not wish to intei'fere with the statutes, but we say that this regula- tion is so very impoitant that we think it should be transferred from the head of regulations to the head of statutes, because regulations may be made without any intervention on the part of those interested, whereas, with regard to a statute, you have an opportunity of being heard before the proper tribunal. The Witness is directed to withdraw- MRS. PHCEBE CATHERINE PRIOR is called in, and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 584. I BELIEVE you are the widow of a Chancery Barrister? Mrs. P. C. Prior, Yes. .585. Who was killed suddenly by a fall from his horse ? Yes. (90.) P 586. You 114 MINUTES OF EVtDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE liJrs. P. C. Prior. 586. You were left vnth ten children to educate ; five boys, and five girls ? Yes. 15th May 1865. 587. I believe, at the time of your husband's death, your eldest son was already a boarder in a master's house at Harrow ? Yes. 588- And you have availed yourself of the privileges of Harrow to educate your other boys ? Yes. 589. Without the privileges of the foundation, would you have found it impossible, from your limited means, to obtain for them the education which you had expected to be able to give them, and which you might have obtained for them, had your husband remained alive, and in the exercise of his pro- fession ? It would have been impossible. 5qo. Therefore, your family have derived inestimable benefits from the Harrow foundation? Yes, it has enabled me to give my sons such an education as I thought fitted their station. 591. I believe you have another son you propose to educate at the school ? I have two sons in the school at present. 502. I believe you are educating your daughters yourself? Yes ; I am giving them a home education. 593. In order to provide means for your sons' tuition, have you also educated other young ladies ? I liave. 594. Chairman] Do you reside at Harrow ? Yes. 595. And you went to Harrow for the purpose of availing yourself of the benefits of the foundation ? Entirely. 596. You were not a resident at Harrow previously? Ko. 597. Mr. Michael.] I believe your sons have achieved success in life, through the benefits received from this foundation ? They have all done very well at Harrow ; my eldest son is preparing for the bar now. I have two sons in high positions in the school. 598. Chah-man^ Of course, wliile they have been at the school, they have boarded at your house ? Yes, they liave been liome-boarders, and I have availed myself of the founda- tion ; it was for that purpose that I came to Harrow. 599. You live near enough to the school not to be inconvenienced by those regulations, of which we have heard } There has been no inconvenience from that; I live so near as not at all to interrupt their attending to all the regulations of the school. 6oo- The cost of each of your sons to you, has been 17 Z. a year, has it not? £. 17- 10. V. 601. Have you been obliged to take private tutors for them, in addition to that ? No, not in my house- 602. Have they had what is called private tuition ? Part of the ]7 1. lOi-. is for i)rivate tuition. 603. Mr. Michael.'] £. 2. 105. is for school charges, 15 /. for private tutors, and 7 .s. for incidentals ; the 1 7 guineas are made u\) in that way ? Yes; I pay .5/. each term for their tutors; tliat makes 15/. ; and 16 s. 8 d. for school charges each term. 604. Chairman.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 115 604. Chairman.'] The coat of the education of each of your sons to you has Mrs. P. C. Prior, been \7 I- 10. v. u-year, has it not? Seventeen guineas. 15th May j 865. 605. Without any extra charge ? Except that they have often had, besides that, an extra mathematical master. You can liave extra tutors if you hke. 606. That has been optional ? Yes. 607. You incurred that expense merely to advance your sons, and put them upon the same footing as others ? Yes. 608. All you necessarily have had to pay for the education which your sons have received at the school has been \7 I. 10 *. ? Yes. 6og. Earl of Devon.] Do you know what you would have had to pay, supposing each of your sons had gone as a home-boarder, and not on the foundation } I believe the charge is 40 /., or so. 610. Is it 41^. 5 s. ? Yes. 61 1. 'Eavl oi Har-rowby.'] If the charge to you had been 40/., instead of 17/. 10^., should you have felt a difHculty in furnishing that education for your children ? I think 1 should have endeavoured to have done so ; of course, it would have hampered me ; it would have made it very much more difficult for me, when 1 had three sons in the school at one time. 612. Lord President] Have you ever received any of your sons' school- fellows into your house, as visitors ; have they come home with your sons occasionally "• Yes, some of them come to breakfast. My son was at school five years, and he of course made friends, who occasionally came to our house. The Witness is directed to withdraw. MR. ARTHUR LANG is called in, and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : C 1 3. YOU have had great experience of the home-boarder system at Harrow, ^^ ^ £,q„„ I think ? " ' °' I have, from residing there 13 years, and having boys in the school during the whole time. 614. They have been home-boarders, I believe f They have been home-boarders on the foundation. 615. Lord Li/ltleton.] Was one of your sons the famous swift bowler ? There was not only cue of them, my Lord, but two, who had that reputation. 6i6. Mr. Michael.] Will you kindly state to their Lordships what has been the career of your sons, both at cricket and in the other exercises ? I will first state that I was myself at a public school, in a master's house, and I there saw, and I may say took part in, so much vice, that I determined never to subject my boys to the same ordeal ; but l:)eing in India, I was not able to make, perhaps, exactly the arrangement I should have wished for my boys. JSIy eldest son went to Rugby, and afterwards distinguished himself very much at Addiscombe. My five other boys (for I have nine children, six sons and three daughters) have been educated at Harrow, as home-boarders on the foundation, and your Lordships must excuse me if I say something in praise of my boys, because if I do not do that here, I am here for no good. I wish to (90.) p2 show 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. A. Lang, show the benefit of the home-boarder system, which I beUeve to be the very best education that can possibly be given. .My eldest son, of those who went to .135th May 1865. Harrow, came out fourth in the last examination ; and Dr.Vaughan had requested that he should take the headship of his second house. My boy, however, had the good fortune to have one of the last Indian Civil Service appointments given to him, so that the arrangement was not carried out. He obtained, before he left Harrow, the Sayer Scholarship, but for the same reason, namely, that he went to Haileybury, he was not able to enter upon it. Now with regard to cricket, he was a very great athlete ; I may say he was in the Harrow Eleven ; he won the champion jumping stakes there ; and in 1855, as, perhaps, my Lord Lyttelton himself knows, he, by his good bowling, I think, mainly contributed to beating Eton in a single innings. I think 1 may truly say that he was a very good specimen of a home-boarder. 617. Lord Lijttellon^ He was captain of the Eleven for four years, was not he ? That is another son ; I am coming to him. 61 8. Earl of Z)er6j/.] He did not learn his bowling at home, did he ? He inherited it from his father a good deal, I may say. My next son was, I think, another excellent specimen of a home-boarder He was not a clever boy, but he took six successive head removes in the school ; that shows that he enjoyed advantages from studying at home ; he has been enabled to work, perhaps, better than he niight have done in the school. He had the very high compliment paid him bv Dr. Vaughan of being placed at the head of his large house, from being a home-boarder, at a time when Dr. Vaughan's house was not in the very best order, and when he required a very influential boy and a high-principled boy at the head of it ; he was for four years in the Harrow Cricket Eleven, and was, I ma}' say, a very popular boy. I think my Lord Lyttelton alluded to him just now. I remember seeing him bowl my Lord Lyttelton's boy out. He further had the very high compliment paid him of being one of the only two boys wiio were examined before the Public Schools' Commission. He went to Cambridge, but his health somewhat failed, and with Dr. Vaughan's, Dr. Pears', and my own approval, he gave up reading for honours, but he came out captain of the poll, which, I believe, is considered a good position, 619. Mr. Michael.'] Now, with regard to your third son ? My third son left Harrow too young to gain the high position his brothers took. He was a very popular boy, and has done every credit to his Harrow- education in India. My fourth boy was also a monitor, and came out second in the school examination lists before he left. He also gained the Sayer Scholarship, and he also gained the senior scholarship of his own college in his own year ; he also had the high compliment paid him by Mr. Rendell of being placed at the head of his house, where he continued for years. My youngest boy is still but a boy in the school, and I will say nothing about liira. Of all my four eldest l)oys, i can most truly and conscientiously say that I have never known them do anything really wrong whilst they have been in the school. Your Lordships will therefoie understand that 1 am a great advocate for the home-boarder system, when I look back at the vice that was carried on at the school where I was, in a master's house. 620. Earl of Poiiju.'] Did your two sons go to live in a master's house when they were asked to do so ? Yes. 62 I . Mr. Michael.'] Could you have afforded, with so large a family, to have educated your boys at masters' houses ? No, ccitainly not ; and I never sliouUl have dreamed of doing so ; I should not even have paid the full fees for them as home-boarders ; I could have got them educated elsewhere. T do not want to say anything against Harrow, for I am sure I love; Harrow ; but 1 could have got thiMU educated al. Cheltenham, say, for about the same sum that they cost me upon the foundation, and I had very serious thoughts of taking them there when I came to Harrow. 622. Lord SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 117 622. Lord IIougJiton.~\ Have you mixed much with the masters of Harrow Mr. A. Lang. School ? I have had the honour of seeing a good deal of them. 1 5th May 18 )5. 623. Do you think that the mutual influence; of the resident gentry, they being such as has been represented, and the masters upon one; another, has been bencfi(ual r I think very mucli so. I think Dr. Vaughn u highly esteemed the home- boarders, and set a high valuL' on the home-boarder system ; I think Mr. Butler does the same. 624. Do you think, not only with regard to their society, but with regard to moral influence, men, who have mixed much in the world, and have seen much of the world, are more likely than those who belong to a somewhat exclusive profession to have a good influence on the Ijoys ? Yes, I think so ; I think it is most beneficial to the school, to the place, to the masters and all ; I think the only objection to residence in Harrow is wliat one may call the master clique ; but of course that is got over a good deal by the residence of the parents of the home-boarders in Harrow. 625. Chairman.'] You alluded to vices which had been prevalent at the school at which you were yourself, and you stated that you therefore considered that the home-boarder system was very useful. Of course you do not mean to say it was necessary to be a home-boarder at Harrow to be removed from those vices ? I think when there are a large number of boys collected in a master's house there is a great risk of contamination, and of their learning very much that is evil, and it is difficult. 1 think, to keep them perfectly pure ; of course there are exceptions, nobody denies that at all ; but I think there is a very great risk in putting a boy in one of those houses. 626. From which risk you consider that they are guarded by boarding at home ? Yes, I think they are very much guarded ; indeed, I think it speaks for itself ; everybody can see it. 627. Earl of Derby.'] You resided in the town of Harrow itself, did you not r I resided in the town of Harrow itself- I may state that I was led to Harrow not solely by the school, I had a widowed sister living there, and other mem- bers of my family, that brought me there ; but I have since built a house there, and 1 intend to remain there. 628. You have not lived at a distance that would cause you any inconvenience from the constant recurrence of bills during the day ; I do not mean bills you had to pay, but bills your boys had to attend ? My boys were obhged to go up to those bills the same as everybody else. I may mention that I was obliged to pay a great deal of money for the land on which I built my house, in order to get it sufficiently near to the school for the boys to go backwards and forwards. The Witness is directed to withdraw. MR. EDWARD EAMES HEATHFIELD is caUed in, and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 62y. I BELIEVE your mother has resided in Harrow for 15 years ? Mr. Yes. E. E. Heaihfield. 630. And you are one of seven boys in her family educated at Harrow School? ^ ^ Yes. 631. I believe your mother could not have provided you with that education but for the advantages afforded by the foundation at Harrow ? No. (90.) P 3 632. Did 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E E M'^thfield '^3^" ^^^ y^^ ^^^^ ^"^ ^^ ^^^^ school any diiference made to you because you ' * were a foundationer ? 15th May 1865. No, none vrhatever ; the boys did not know that. 6.33. Cltairman.1 It would not have made any difference if they had, would it? I suppose not. 634. Lord Lyttelton.'] You were of the same general social class with the rest of the bovs r Yes. 635. Mr. Michael.] Your father was a barrister, was he not? Yes. The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Reverend HAYWARD JOYCE is called in, and Examined by Mr. Michael as follows : Rev. H. Joyce. 636. YOU are the Vicar of Harrow ? I am. 637. You were a student and tutor at Christchurch, Oxford ? I was. 638. Earl Stanhope.'] How many years have you been Vicar of Harrow? Four years. 63q. Mr. Michael.] You have had an opjiortunity of knowing the feelings of the inhabitants of Harrow with respect to this Bill? Yes ; I have had constant communication v^ith most of the inhabitants on the subject. 640. And you also attended when Mr. Butler gave a sketch of his scheme ? I did. 64 1 . Will you kindly state to their Lordships your opinion as to whether a scheme of that kind would meet the wants and wishes of the inhabitants of Harrow ? I do not think the scheme proposed by Mr. Butler would meet the wishes of any class of the inhabitants of Harrow. It certainly would not meet the wishes of the class of resident gentry, for they by that scheme are entirely excluded from the benefits of the Harrow foundation ; and it does not, I am prepared to say, at all meet the wishes of the tradesmen. I have had communication with all the leading tradesmen in Harrow upon the subject, and I do not think that there is one who is satisfied with Mr. Butler's scheme. Their objection is, in the first place, that it actually does away with John Lyon's foundation ; that it takes away from them a right and privilege wiiich they highly value, and which I believe they are very anxious to use. They say also that they do not wish to see another school of that sort established in Harrow. 64^^. Lord Lyttellon.] If that be unsatisfactory, allow me to ask what it is that is wanted ; what would you recommend r I agree entirely with what Mr. Cuuninghame said just now in his evidence ; I think we might have two lower forms ; I should say not a separate school, but two lower forms attached to the upper school ; they would be extremely avail- able for the purposes of the education of tradesmen and farmers' boys. 643. Perhaps I might ask you the question which was put to Mr. Cunning- hame by the Bishop of London, namely, looking to the very small amount of property in the hands of the Governors, how would you meet the expense of the nccer-sary masters for those two new forms ? i. think that every boy who wont to that school might i)ay 5 /. or (5 /. a year ; besides that, th(>y, of course, have the present funds which are derived from the school property, and I have very little doubt, indeed, that the property may be improved. 644. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 119 644. You refer to the property of the Lyon Trust ? Rev. fl. Juijce. Yes ; the property of the trust may be improved, certainly. Some of the ' proj)erty at Ilarrow now let, is let very mueh under price, indeed. I think 15th May 1865 there will be evidence given on that point presently, showing that the value of the school property may be made very much more than it is at present. 645. Chairman.'] What portion of the school property do you think could be improved r I was thinking when I spoke of one or two of the shops and small buildings in Harrow, which are let at very low rents, although the ground is very valuable. 646. You think that the tradespeople of Harrow would be disposed to pay higher rents for this purpose ? 1 think the majority of tradespeople at Harrow would be prepared to see one or two of their number pay a higher rent, if they got an advantage from it. • 647. They would depute one or two of their number to i)ay a higher rent ? Yes. 648. Mr. Michael.'] Is not it the fact that a great portion of the school buildings are erected upon property 01 a very valuable nature, which if other- wise used would bring in a great increase of rent to the trust ? 1 am not a competent witness upon that point ; but I have very little doubt that that is the case ; indeed I can have no doubt, knowing where the property lies in Harrow. 649. Chairman.] You have been speaking with reference to that part of the property which is not employed for school buildings now ; you think, I sup- pose, that the property upon which school buildings exist would pay a much higher sum ? I think so. Take, for instance, the land on which the Vaughan Library stands ; certain houses were destroyed to provide ground to put the Vaughan Library upon. 650. How much ground do you suppose that Vaughan Library stands upon ? I do not know ; there were three or four cottages that paid a certain rent ; when they were pulled down that rent was lost, of course. 65 1 . Should you say that the whole of the Vaughan Library together stands on more than a quarter of an acre of land. 1 cannot say ; but we sell land in Harrow by the foot now. We should call that very valuable land. 652. Earl of Devon.'] You say that there should be two lower forms ; what would you have taught in those lower forms ? I should have, I think, arithmetic and geography, English composition and French, certainly, and the rudiments of Latin taught in those forms. 6.53. No Greek? I should doubt very much about the wisdom of teaching Greek to boys under the age of 12 or 13, unless they intended to go on with a classical education. 654. Bishop of London.'] Then you would draw a distinction between the classical and the commercial part of the school ? I think I should. 655. Is not that what the tradespeople would object to ? No; what they would object to would be to have a thoroughly separate school. 650- Have you read this paper of Mr. Cunninghame's r Yfs. 657. In which he proposes to divide the foundation into two parts ? Yes. (90.) p 4 658. One 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. JI. Joyce. 658. One part of the foundation providing for education of a classical cha- racter, and the other for a commercial education ? 15th May 1865. Yes. 659. Is not that open to the veiy objection you have just stated ? I think not, because in that case the boys in the lower classes would be in the direct course of running to get into the upper classes, if they desired it ; but if we get two separate schools established, there would not be that running. Therefore, although, if you estabhshed such a school in another town, where no such school as that at Harrow existed, that school would have a fair chance of success ; yet if you establish a lower school where the great school already exists, you will make it take a lower position, and I should be sorry to see that. 660. Lord LyUelton7\ With regard to the present amount of available trust property, and the charges upon it, have you considered how you would meet the expenses of those additional classes which you propose to have upon the same footing as the present foundation ? I take, first of all, the present foundationers ; they pay X"] I. Ms. a year themselves. I think, at Marlborough and Cheltenham tliey calculate the expense to be 25 I. a year ; then the addition you would make to the present amount which the foundationers pay themselves would be very small. 661. You would propose to throw no additional charge^ then, upon the pre- sent endowment ? Very little charge upon the present endowment. 662. Chcnrvmn-'^^ Having, as you know we have, not above 700 /. or 800 /., or taking it at the utmost, 1 ,000 I- a year to dispose of, could we establish the sort of school, or those forms that you are proposing with those funds ; could you get the masters to teach those things you have now been indicating for that sum? I really think you could if you made the boys pay a certain sum a year for their education. ^^2). That is to say, the boys who would go into this lower form? Yes, I would make those boys pay something, just as at present the founda- tioners in the upper school pay something. 664. Would you make them pay 17 guineas a year ? No, certainly not. 665. That is what the foundationers pay in the upper school? Yes. I would certainly not make them pay so much as that ; I should say five- guineas. 66(>. You propose that the foundationers in those lower classes, should be tauglit four or five distinct studies, for which there must be four or five separate masters. SujjposiDg the availal)le trust funds to be altogether 1 ,000 /. a year, and supposing you make the foundationers pay what you propose, could you ha.ve such classes ? I should hiirdly say, that for the studies I roughly hinted at just now, it would be necessary to have four or five masters, because such an elementary educa- tion as that, could be fairl}' given by two masters I should say. I think I could pick out many men wlio would be prepared to teach the subjects I named, geograjjhy, writing, English, and the rudiments of Latin perhaps ; not French, but all the other subjects. 6G7. T-onl HoiKjhton.] Would you jn-opose that this school should be a lower school for bojs, who were to be afterwards transferred to the upper school, like the lower school at Eton ? I would let everv boy liave the o])portunity of going on if he liked. 668. Woiild not the effect of that lie, that the great majority of the lower school would belong- to the commereial classes, and therefore there might be some unwillingness on the part of a few boys of more easy circumstances to be mixed up with them ? I think there nii^i^ht be a diiliculty of that kind, at first at any rate, but 1 think there are some people living there, who like myself, are not inclined to educate I5tli May 1865. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L,] 121 educate their own boys, and who would let them ^o there first, and move up Rev. H. Joyce. into the upper school. 66cj. You do not think there would be that unwillingness generally ? No, I think not. 670. Earl of Derbi/.\ Do you contemplate limiting the lower school to foundationers only ? 1 should not myself limit the lower school to foundationers. 671. You would propose that boys should enter such a school us that at seven or eisht years old, I presume r Yes. 672. Have you any reason to suppose tliat when you had constituted a school of that kind, boys would come from a distance to it for education ? No, 1 do not think they would. (173. Then it would be limited to foundationers, or those who would have a right to claim the benefit of the foundation ? I think I should let boys come, as tliey have a right to come now, from the whole of the civil parish of Harrow, which is a large tract of country. 674. You say you do not think that the boys would come to this lower school, where they would beuin at seven or eight years old, from a distance ; therefore, as all the inhabitants of Harrow are entitled to the benefits of the foundation, the lower school would be practically confined to those who are entitled to be upon tlie foundation ? Yes. 675. What number of children, at the same time, do you think you could reckon upon being sent, and availing themselves of the benefits of the founda- tion by going into that separate earlier school ? I should think not above 25, probably ? 676. Would there be as many as that ? I should think so ; I am speaking without any precise knowledge of what funds would be at the disposal of the trustees. 677. It is important to see how far the estimated number of boys, and the estimated requirements in respect of masters and funds, can be all brought together ? Going over it as carefully as we could, we estimated that there would be 25 upon each foundation ; 25 foundationers in the upper school, and 25 founda- tioners in the lower school, I think. 678. Lord Houghton.] You say you do not expect that boys would come from other parts of the country to this lower school ; why should they not come to this school just as they come to the lower school at Eaton ? I think they might, possibly- 679- What would be the diff'erence between this school and the Eton School ? When you start a new thing of this sort, it is not likely to draw people like an old foundation for some time. 680. Mr. Michael.'] Do you not think it would be very much valued as a preparatory school for the upper school by persons who intended to send their sons there as foreigners ? 1 think if it was started very carefully, and the first masters were very care- fully chosen for it, it would be so ; it depends very much upon how it is started. 681. Earl of Fowls.] At Eton there is a boarding house set apart for the ■boys educated in the lower school : do you think there would be funds suf- ficient to provide a separate boarding house at Harrow i^ I cannot say ; I do not know what the funds would be. 682. Earl of Harrowhy.] Do you think that John Lyon's funds would be suf- ficient to entitle you to the education of 25 boys in the upper school and 25 in the lower school, at a charge of 1 7 /. 10 s. each ? I should not propose that that should be the charge. (90.) Q 6^Z. Lord 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THi: Rev. H. Joyce. 683. \jOyA Lyttclton.] "You said you thought o /. would be a fair charge for the lower school ? 15th May 1865. Yes. 6S4. Earl of Ilarrowby.'\ Do you think that the funds existing in the hands of John Lyon's trustees would entitle you to ask that *25 boys should be educated in the upper school at \7 I. 10. s., and 25 in the lower school at b 1.1 Yes; 1 think that the parish might fairly ask that. 685. Is there any calculation that would enable you to say h ow it would wor k out } I have not made the calculation. Mr. MichaeL'\ Twenty-tive boys at 1/ /. 1/ s. would be about 450 /. ; 25 bo)'S at b I. would be 125/., making a total of 5/5/. Assuming the foundation to be 1,000 /., which we say is much less than it really is worth to the head master and the foreigners, because we ought to look at it in that way, that would make a total of 1,5/5 /., which divided bv 50 would give 30 /. odd a-piece ; a sum which we say is more than sufficient to pi-o- vide education for a boy. Chairman.'] There would be great deductions from that. In the first place you take the whole funds which the trustees have to dispose of. You do not remember that there are certain charge.s upon those funds, i do not suppose that the inhabitants of Harrow and Pinner are intending to take away the stipends paid by the trustees to the curates, or the dona- tions to the schools. I think there is a small donation to the Vicar of Har- row which must be paid out of the funds, besides the master's stipend, and the payment to the writing master, and many other things ; you will find that your calculation will not bear that. Mr. Michael:] Allow me to state the basis upon which we rest our cal- culation. 1 assume that a certain smn of money should be paid as rent. If you are to make a broad line of demarcation between the foreigners and foundationers as such, we say that, looking upon ourselves as owners of the property, if the master keeps the foundationers separate from the foreigners, he ought to pay for the plant and goodwill from which he de- rives a certain annual sum. We believe really that that property is worth 2,500 /. a year to him. If the buildings, the property of the trust fund, are worth 2,500 /. a year, we subtract from that 500 /., and we say that in reality 2,000 /. ought to be appropriated to the foundation. We have been expending for a large number of years, year by year, a large sum of money for the sustentation of the buildings, which expenditure has been required by the large number of foreigners, and not required by the foundationers. We say that if that money had been appropriated to the purposes of the foundation it would by this time have amounted to 2,000 /. a year. Earl of Harrowhy.] You say that the foreigners or the masters have had the advantage of so much of the funds as have been appropriated to the foreigners. Mr. Mkhael.] Precisely ; we say that a large amount of our moneys have be<'n expended to sustain and erect buildings solely for the foreigners, or in the large proportion of 1 3 to 1 : and we say that our property has been taken for the ))urposes of the school. I ask you to look at it now as tliough a se])arate s(;liool were to be established, and we were to give them up the whole of our property and go to one separate school, they pur- chasing our pvoj)erty from us. I think that is a fair way of looking at it. Sui)])osing th:it we are to lose all the advantages we at present have, and that the head master is to take those advantages altogether, how- much are the governors to buy us out of our property, our goodwill, and our stoc^k in trade, and our plant, for we are to go to anotluT jdace, and to assume a sul)ordinate ))()sition. We ask you, if you are prepared to take all our property, what you are willing to pay for it ? Viscount SELECT COMMITTEE ON" THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 123 Viscount Kvcrsla/.] Have those school buildings which you have alluded Hev. H. Juyce. to been built uijon the proiuTtv h'l'L to the trust bv John Lyon's will orignially .•' ■' ^ Mr. Michael.'] Yes. 686. Lord Lyllellon (to the Wltiitss).\ In your scheme, do you propose to relieve the present endowment from any of the charges to which it is now subject? No. 687. Do you conceive that there is any margin upon the present endowment atall r All the i)resent endowment is now spent upon the schools; that is our argu- ment, therefore we say it would be very unfair to deprive us of the rights of the school to which so much of our endowment has gone. 688. You propose to found two new classes; you cannot, as I understand, defray the expenses of those two new classes without coming upon the endow- ment, can you .- No, I do not think we can. 6S9. Therefore, if there is no margin upon the present appropriation of the endowment, how do you propose to defray the expenses of those classes ? I tliink a great portion of the endowment is approi)riated in a way it ought not to be. 690. You propose, then, to set some of that money free ; what is that money which you propose to set free ? I think we ought to set free some of that money which goes to the sustenta- tion of the buildings. 69 1 . You agree with the former witnesses upon that point ? Ido. 692. You think that the foreigners ought to pay more than they do towards the support of those buildings ? Yes. 693. Bishop of London.] Do you adopt the plan suggested in Mr. Cunning- ham's pamphlet ? Yes, I should be quite content to stand by that plan. 694. You have had a great deal of experience in education at Christ Church ; do you think it would be possible to give a first-rate modern education, including a little Latin, French, drawing, writing, geography, history, and English, to boys under the age at which they ought to enter the great school at Harrow ? I think you could give a first-rate education up to that age. 695. Is it really, in your estimation, possible to educate persons for com- mercial life along with young boys who are to go on in the classics through Harrow up to the Universities ; is it possible that the two systems of education can be conducted satisfactorily together in that way .'' I think it is. 696. You think that a boy who is soon to be plunged in all the intiicacies of a thorough classical education, and a boy who is to go behind the counter, or become a shopkeeper, can be, in the first two years, well educated together, and better educated than if they were kept separate ? Yes, I think so. I may mention that I had a conversation with a gentleman connected with a large and important preparatory school some time ago. He came to me with a case of conscience. It was not under confession, therefore I may state it : he said he was in this ditficulty, that when he first started his preparatory school he was very anxious, of course, to make a name ; he desired that his boys should do well when they went in for examination, and he there- fore looked to see what place they would take in the school. 697. Chairman.] In the Harrow .School .-' Yes. He, therefore, pushed the boys on extremely in their verses, in Alcaics and Sapphics, and then when they went into the school they took high places, (90.) Q 2 just 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE liev. H. Joyce, just because they were able to do Alcaics and Sapphics. But after two or three years' experience he came to this conclusion, that if he educated the boys isth May 1865. thoroughly well, giving them a good grounding, and leaving Alcaics and — Sapi)hics to take their proper places, the result was, that at the end of the year or so, they took better places and got on better in the school than if they had started higher on account of their proficiency in Alcaics and Sapphics. There- fore, I think you might educate the boys perfectly well together up to 13 ; and although boys so educated would not take the same high position when they passed into the upper school, yet in a year or so the}^ would take a better position. 698. Lord Hovg/iton.] The education which you shadow out as being given in the lower school, would be the ordinary good education of an English boy up to the age of 13, when he would enter a great public school? Yes : he would be thoroughly well grounded .in EngUsh, and Latin, and French. 690. Mr. Michael.] Do you corroborate the evidence given by the previous witnesses as to the influence exercised upon the school by the fusion of classes of foreigners, and home-boarders, and foundationers ? With the slight experience I have had, I should speak even more stronglj" than Mr. Lang and Mr. Cunningham have spoken. I think it is extremely valuable. I think there is one point which neither of those gentlemen touched upon. There being u considerable number of the parents of home-boarders in Harrow, if anything is going wi'ong in the place, it is their interest to let the head master know of it. They are sure to know it from their own boys if there is anything going wrong m the place. I know of two cases in which * things of that kind have been brought to the knowledge of the head master b)- the parents of bosv living at home, and in both of those cases they happened to be foundationers. If thei'e were no foundationers nor home-boarders, there would not be the same interest taken by the residents in the town to stop any- thing going wrong. 700. Mr. Michael.] What is your opinion as to the value of the influence of local governors r I should venture to say this (I speak with great respect), I think if there had been a local governor there would not have been the difficulties which have been mentioned to-day with respect to the extra bills and pony riding. 701. Eavl StcDihope.] Did not the requisition you put foi-ward at the public meeting at Flarrow go much beyond what you now ask ; did it not go to the extent of requiring that eveiy governor should be connected witli Harrow? I think not, but there was very great alarm at the time. We had not mapped out any definite vievvs. 702. Unless I read the resolution wrongl}-, I understand it to be, that in conformity with the original will of John Lyon, no governor should be appointed who was not a resident, or interested in property in the parish of Harrow r There was a public meeting, and a vestry meeting. I was not at the public meeting. 703. I allude to the vestry meeting ? I think that was the case, but their was a great deal of alarm then. 704. As I understand, you would be satisfied with one or two governors being so connected with Harrow r We shoukl not be satisfied with one, because one would be clearly at a disadvantage ; there ought to be two or three, whose voices should be fairly heard, and by whom the views of the neighbourhood should bi' fairly repre- ented. 70.5. That is a different thing from what was stated as the re(|uisition of the inhabitants at the vestry meeting ; you know what that re(|nirement was? I was no party to that ; I should never have sujjported such a thing as that. 706. Earl of Harrowhy.) You are aware, are you not, that at the High School at SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PLBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 125 a t Edinburgh, children of all classes, from the Peer to the small tradesman, are "' '^'^^* educated side by side r 15th May i86j. I am aware that it has been so. 707. And that they go out from that school into active life, with a very thorough education for their various occupations : Yes. 708. And with credit to the national character? Yes ; but there is a great difference between a system having existed, and establishing anew one. 709. Mr. Mic/iael.] Have you had any opportunity of forming an opinion as to the desirability of substituting competitive examination for the present system, as a means of admission to the school : I have thought a great deal about competitive examinations for some years ; I have been obliged to do so ; I think that competitive examination for a boy entering a school is as unfair a test as can possibly be devised. Besides that, you give another great advantage to wealth, because, as in the case I have just stated with reference to this preparatory school, a person who could have afforded to send his children there, could have afforded to have them educated in the two or three points that would enable thoni to take a high place in the school, whereas if they had been educated at home, they might not have been equally well prepared for that purpose. 710. Lord Houghton.} Is not it almost entirely a question of money ? Yes, T think so. 711. Lord Lvtlelton.] Could not a boy who had learned those subjects equally well at home, get in r . No ; a boy who had been grounded in the rudiments of Latin and Greek grammar at home, would not take so high a place as one who could write verses, as those boys coming from that preparatory school could. 712. After being crammed ? Yes. 713. Earl of Devon.'] I am not sure whether you were a public-school man or not, yourself? I am sorry to say, I was not. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. CHARLES FRANCIS HUMBERT is called in, and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 714. I BELIEVE you are a Surveyor of very considerable experience r Mr. C.F.Humbert. Yes. 715. You live at Watford, do you not? Yes. 716. And you have surveyed the estates belonging to the trustees of Harrow School ? Yes ; I have valued certain portions of them. 717. Do you put in this written statement of the valuation of the pro- perty r {handing a\P(qitr to the JVitiiess.) I do. 718. Lord L]jtteUo?i.] Is that a valuation of the whole parish? No, not of the whole parish ; only that which refers to these funds. 719. Cha/rmai/.] Were you employed by the governors of Harrow School to value any part of the property of the School ? No, not by the Governors. 720. Under what circumstances did you value the property ? I valued it at the request of certain persons at Harrow, in order to come and give evidence here. (90.) Q 3 721. It 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr.C. F.Humbert. 721. It was at their request that you valued the property of the school r 15th May 1865. ^^^- 722. But you say you have not valued the whole of the property of the school ? Not the whole of the property of the school ; merely certain properties. 723. You valued certain portions of the school property, which were indi- cated to you by certain inhabitants of Harrow r Yes. 724. For the purpose of giving evidence here? Yes. 725. Mr. Michael.] I believe you valued the whole of the property available for the purposes of education r Yes. 726. No valuation has been taken of the property devoted to road purposes ? No. 727. Are you aware of the nature of the property on the Preston Estate ? Yes, I am. 728. In your opinion, is it a very improving property ? Very much so. 729. And likely to be of very largely increased value? Yes. 730. Chairman.^ Where is Preston ? It is a hamlet in the parish of Harrow. > 73 1 . Mr. Michael.] Will you state a circumstance that has lately happened as to the sale of a portion of that property r The house in which John Lyon lived is there ; it is a farm, consisting of about 243 acres, chiefly of pasture land ; the rent now paid is, I am told. 420 I. 73 J. For how many acres ? Two hundred and forty -three, by the parish map ; there is no tithe rent- charge upon it ; I conceive it would let readily immediately for 546 /. ; the pre- sent rent is 420/. 733. My question was directed to the sale of some portion of that land ; has not there been one recently ? It was not exactly a sale ; a projected railway was intended to pass through it, and I, on behalf of the Company, effected a conditional purchase of a portion of the land for the purposes of the Railway. 734. Ai how much an acre r I agreed for 250/. an acre; it was 51 acres to be taken at that price ; of course the pHce was increased on account of the severance. 735- Chairman.] This was for a railway which was intended to pass through ? Yes ; I do not mean to say that it is the value of the land. 73G. It is not the value of the land, is it ? For that purpose, the price of land is always higher than if you sold the whole estate. 737. Karl o^ Powis.] How much is added for compulsory sale? £. 50 an acre for compulsory sale ; it would have been 200 /. an acre other- wise. 738. Mr. Michael.] What is your total estimate of the annual value of all the estates you saw ? £. 4,273. 739. Will you hand in yoiu' estimate ? I will. {The same is handed in. — Vide Appendix.) 740. That is including the school buildings ? Yes, it requires some explanation. 741. Chairman.^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [n. L.j 127 741. C/iaintian.'j You calculate that the revenues of the school that are Mr.C.F. Humbert, applicable to education, amount to 400/. a-year. . 7, og^ No, I do not say that ; I say that 1 have certain properties at Harrow, and I ^- ^ have put values U|ion each of those properties separately, which amount to that sum. 742 Do you mean to say that the property which now does not produce 1,000/. a-year m\^\\t be better let, so as to [)roduce 4,000 1.1 IVIy estimate of the increase upon the whole over the present rental is 1,530 /. 743. What do you put the present rental at ? £. 1,022 10 s. 744. Mr. Michael.'] And your improved rental is 1,530/. Yes. 745. But then you add to that the value of the property in Harrow, now occupied bv the school buildings ? Yes. 746. That total ijrings it up to 4,2/3 /. Yes. 747. Cfiairmai/.] You add 2,000 /. a } ear to what you say ought to be the educational income of Harrow for the school buildings ; upon what system do you do that ? I find a house occupied by the iiead master, Mr. Butler, stands upon nearlv an acre of ground ; I put down 450 /. a year for that. 748. Do you know what he pays ? I do not. 749. Mr. Michael.'] What do vou value the ground on which the library is built ? I have put down 250 /. a year for that. 750. Chairman.] How much ground does that stand upon } I do not know the exact space of ground, but there is room enough to build a good house upon it ; it is a square piece of ground ? 751. Do you consider that the ground rent for the space occupied by the Vaughan Library at Harrow is worth 250 /. a year ? No, not the ground rent ; I mean the ground with the building now upon it. 752. The building was erected by subscription ; you cannot take that into account r I found the building there. 753. You charge, as against the governors, a building built by subscription ? I find tiie building there, and I am constrained to put a value upon it. 7.54. Mr. Michael.] What would you think was the value of the ground rent, leaving the building out of consideration altogether, as a piece of ground to be let for building purposes ? I dare say it is worth 30 I. or 40 /. a year. 755. Do you know what buildings were on it before the library was erected r No. 75(1. Have you made any estimate of the land upon which the chapel and other buildings stand ? I did not put down any value upon the chapel whatever. 7 "-,7. Then subtracting 1,685 /. from 4,273/. would leave 2,588 /. Yes. 7;,S. What do you estimate the value of the school and racket courts r 1 have put the school and racket courts at 500 /. 759. .And the cricket ground? £. 30. 760. And the field at Green Hill r £. 10. (90.) Q4 761. The 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. C. F. Humbert. 761. The shop, in Harrow, occupied by Miss Arnold? There are four houses at Harrow, which I value at (>5 /. 15th May 1865. . 762. The total altogether, I believe, you make 2,400/. Yes ; striking out the chapel. 763. Lord Lyttelton.~\ That is the whole of the buildings belonging to the school. Yes ; that I make about 2,500 J. The "Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. RICHARD CHAPMAN, is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : Mr. R. Chapman. 764. YOU are a Farmer, at Harrow r Yes, and a Builder. 765. You are the proprietor, I believe, of several of the master's houses ? Yes ; I am. 766. And you have resided at Harrow all your life ? Yes ; and my father before me. 767. And you are a large landowner there, 1 believe. Yes. 708. You are a member also of the Local Board of Health, are you not ? I am. 769. Did you give great facilities to the Local Board of Health to cross your property for draining purposes ? I did, and got the nuisance of all of it on my property ; they destroyed one or two of my children, I am afraid ; however, that is gone. 770. AVhat induced you to allow them the privilege t Because I was very anxious to see the Board of Health carried out; for one thing, it was a Government plan to make everybody healthy, so I thought it was desirable to try it. 771. Did you grant them great facilities on account of the public benefit resulting from the school r Very much so. Dr. Vaughan was a very great friend to me, and I had the honour of building the chapel and also the library. Those were two jobs I did; one under Dr. Butler, and the other under Dr. Vaughan. I have been on the best possible terms with them. 772. Have you the pleasure very frequently of seeing the boys of the school on your property ? Yes, very much so ; and I sometimes tell them to lay down their pipes. I have double hedge on my farm, and I find many a lot of soda-water bottles and pipes there ; so much so that my men talk of cutting it down. I said I would not allow this. I said to the boys, " You must alter this ; I cannot allow things to go on which have a tendency to be vvhat I call wrong." I am sorry to say they destroy my hedges very much, and if I threaten them to inform of it, they say, " What is that to you, old buffer.^" 773. There is a very good feeling between you and the boys in spite of this r Yes, we are on the best of terms. 774. C/uiiniuni.] You do not think that the value of the property would be greatly increased if the school were removed r I do not know about that ; just round the school it is very valuable ; it is worth 1 ,000 /. an acre ; but a quarter of a mile from the scliool no one thinks of building there. 775. On account of the proximity of the school ? To a great extent. 776. Then 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE TUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 129 776. Then we may take; it that that wliich is near to the school is of very Mr. R, Chupvan. great value, liut as you come further from the school the ijroperty ceases to be of the same value ? ^5th May 1&G5. Yes; but I think your Lordship will see one reason for that; if you were " going to choose a site to build a house on you wovdd not like a dreadful hole ; you would like to cast your eye, perhaps 100 miles, or at least over seven or eight counties. 777. Notwithstanding the school, the ground is worth 1,000 /. an acre ? Yes, the upper part is. 778. Then the school is not very injurious to property ? I have told your Lordship what it does to my hedges ; it makes your land perfectly public. 77(). Do you know many other localities where land is worth 1,000?. an acre. Yes; it is fetching 2,000 /. or 3,000 /. at Teddington. I gave 1,000/. for an acre there up rather a narrow court, and I was told I got it very cheap. 780. Mr. Michael.'} Do you know the general feelings of the inhabitants of your class with reference to this Bill r Yes. 781. Chairman.'] Should you say that the school is locally reckoned a nuisance ; because it has been talked of as some peojde talk of gasworks ? — We have had both the one and the other : it has been bad enough, what with the sewage on the one side and the school on the other. 782. Is the school, then, considered by the inhabitants of Harrow as a great nuisance, and injur}^ to the property? It would be still a greater nuisance if your Lordship inflicted your Bill upon us. 783. That is not an answer to my question ; is the school considered a nuisance ? Of course it is a nviisance that you should have a number of boys doing what they like. I may say that my boy went to the English form ; Dr. Vaughan talked to me a good deal about establishing this English form ; of course, I did not know what he was going to establish. I said, " Anything will be better than what we have now, because we have nothing." At the same time a very nice feeling is kept up between the Harrow boys and us ; we make up our minds to bear it. 784. You make up your mind to the nuisance, you mean? Yes ; if they say to me, " Old Buffer," I take no notice ; I know what youth is ; and then they are young gentlemen. The moment one of my boys went on their grounds they would be walked off to the police station ; but with these gentlemen I do not return the same thing, of course. 78.5. The English form was established in consultation with you, I under- stand ? With me and several others, 786. You advised Dr. Vaughan to establish that which j'ou thought would meet the requirements of the inhabitants ? Dr. Vaughan was anxious (whether he was conscience-stricken or not, I can- not say) to give the education which he thought ought to be given, or else to preserve the rights of the aristocracy ; I should be very sorry to say anything that was not right, but there has been always a questicm on my mind whether it was not really to preserve the upper school from the contamination of the classes, who were looked down upon as tradespeople to the injury of the foreijjn element. 787. However, the English form was established in concert with yourself and others ? (90.) R Not i.5'li May 1865. 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. R. Chapman. Not much in concert with nie ; he asked my opinion ; I should be sorry to refuse any opinion he had asked. 788. Was your opinion favourable or unfavourable? I believe it was established as the result of the relieving officer sending his boy to the Harrow School. 78c). What relieving officer do you mean; fathers are sometimes called " relieving officers "? Yes, exactly ; there is no mistake about that. It was the relieving officer of the place. I was talking to a butcher, of the name of Walker, at Harrow, about tradesmen's sons going to the school; I should tell you that after the law busi- ness you have heard of, brought on by some celebrated men, it was tried by the farmers and tradespeople to send their children to the school. In Byron's and Peel's day the boys were desperate, especially Byron ; he was a great pugilistic man at Harrow, so I have heard my father say. Joseph Walker said, " I do not know how it would be now ; w hen I homas used to go to school he used to skulk up the back fields." They were afraid of kicks Irom the other boys ; and the conse- quence was, the tradespeople gave up the idea oi' sending their children to the school altogether, and they have been ])ut to the expense of sending them away, because they cannot make use of John Lyon's foundation. 790. Mr. MlckaeL'j Do you wish, and do you think that others do also, to avail yourself of the benefits of John Lyon s foundation ? I do, with a few improvements. 791. Chairman.'] Then the tradesmen and farmers at Harrow would wish that the strictly classical education which is provided for by the endowment should be given to their sons ? I do not understand the term much. I think the best education that you could give them would be what they would like ; whether it be classical or com- mercial, I do not know. 792. You said that the tradesmen wished to avail themselves of the benefits of that foundation ; of course you know what that foundation provides ? I do. 793. It is a strictly classical education ? Yes. 794. That is the education that the tradespeople of Harrow wish for their sons ? Yes ; ihey see great statesmen and great financiers at the head of the Government rise out of a classical education, and they think this is the educa- tion that their sons ought to have. 79,5. But you are aware that those great statesmen had gone to the school at an early age, and stayed there until they were 19, and then gone to the Uni- versity r I do not know how they got it, but I mean tosaythatwhat is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. My son is in the Exchequer, for I may tell your Lordships that I represent a good deal of property, or lathir it is not 1, it is my children to whom it comes. At the time when John Lyon lived, we had a field just opposite him, and there is no doul)t that the family that I represent were on intimate and friendly terms with John Ljon. We have held that property for 300 or 400 3ears, but now coming to my children, it will be broken up, and not con- tinue as it has dont;. My boy thinks it was a great injustice that 1 did not send him to Harrow. lie is now working liard in his evenings to learn the modern languages and other things which are necessary to make head in the world. He said to me, "' If you had sent mo there, I should have had the prestige of the school, and you have had to pay for my education, and I have only got half an education either." 79(1. Why did you not send him there? I was fearful ; I did not like to have his legs broken. I do not say it would be so now. 797. Mr. Afic/iael.] Were there at that time difficulties thrown in your way to prevent vour sending vour son to Harrow School ? No, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 131 No, not then. Dr. Vaui;han established this Englisli form, and he said, Mr.R. Chapmun. " Will you send your son there ?" I said, " f have no objection," and I sent . ,., 77 o~ hnn ; lie got a tolerable r.nglish education ; I nnished hun at another hoarding school. There were three masters there, and there was a good deal of expense connected with it. 798. Lord LijlteIton.~\ Do you think that your sou would have been at a disadvantage with the other boys if he; had gone to the Harrow School ; that he would not have been iu his right place ? He would have been injured, I fancy. 799. He would not have been comfortable with the other boys, you thought ? He says he should ; 1 fancied he would not. I have two pieces of poetry coin])osed some time ago, showing the feeling about the school, which I can hand in if your Lordship would like to see them. The Witness is directed to withdraw. MR. WILLIAM WLNKLEY is called in ; and Examined, as follows : 800. Mr. Michael] YOU are Vestry Clerk of Harrow ? Yes. 801 . And have been so for 20 years ? For nearly 20 years. 802. And your family, I believe, for nearly a century ? Yes. 803. You are also a house agent ? Yes. 804. And you have had great opportunities of knowing the value of property, and how the school influences the value of property? I have. 805. In your experience, have you found that there being a public school at Harrow has prevented your letting property ? There is no doubt that it has been a great drawback to families unconnected with the school. I remember Harrow when it had quite a different aspect from what it has now. We had a great many families which might be called county families then, but now it is quite altered We have no families who keep up large establishments ; in fact, the late Lord Nordiwick himself told me that the school had driven him from Harrow ; he formerly kept up a laro-e establishment there. 8c6. Lord Lyttellon.'] That Lord Northwick was a man of very pecuhar habits, was not he ? He was very fond of Harrow ; nothing would have taken him from Harrow except that he was inconvenienced by the school. 81.7. Earl of Derhy?\ (To Mr. Michael.) You are not proposing to do away with the school, are you ? With what view do you prove that it is a nuisance ? I\]r. Michael.] The way I venture to put it before your Lordships is that while Harrow has certainly much benefited, and while property has much benefited in some places, paradoxical as it may appear, pi-operty is injured also. My intention was to show that we are not advocating the bricks-and- mortar interest ; that we do not come here merely to say that this is a vested right in property, but we come here in the interest of education. Chairman ] It seems to me that the object is to establish the fact that the school is a great public nuisance. Witness.] I think 1 should look at it in this light, if I might be allowed to say so, that the school has raised the value of property considerably in some respects, but certain properties it has deteriorated. If we are not to have the foundation, if you do not let the inhabitants of Harrow, both the gentry and (90.) R 2 the Mr. W. Winhley. 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. I V. If v tkley. ^Y\q tradespeople, and the whole town, have an educational interest in the lah Mav ibGs- school (leave out altogether the pecuniary interest), even if it is only an idea '- (which probably with many of us it is now) of possessing a very valuable right, althougli we do not use it ; I say if you take away this interest, you will not only injure t!ie school itself, but you will destroy certain properties and vested interests. 1 refer to \arious things which have been done on the expectation of the present circumstances continuing. Various moneys have been expended. The Board of Health, for instance, was created entirely for the school, and something like 20,000 /., taking what we owe and what we have spent, has been taken out of our propeity, a tenth part of the property of Harrow, to jilease the masters of the school entirely. After that, it would be a most ungracious thing to take away our interest in the school. When 1 bought the house I live in, it cost me 1,800 /. ; I would not have given 1,000 /. for it if you had taken away those interests. SoS. Wo have it in evidence that there is not a single son of a Harrow tradesman in the school taking the benefit of the foundation ? I am a tradesman, in addition to my other avocations, but I have been so mixed up with the resident gentry myself, that I can see how they value educa- tion, and it will be my aim, if I cannot get that education at Harrow, to get it somewhei'e else for my children. I have one son now at a grammar school; he ought not to be away from Harrow, because 1 consider my children have the strongest claim to be educated there. 809. Why have you not availed yourself of it ? I told Dr. Butler that I did think of sending my boy to the scliool. His advice was, not to do so. I then mentioned to him that I should apply to a Noble Lord now in the room to give me the right of presentation to another school. He said, " If you do, he will at once say, Why do you not send him to Harrow ? " and he advised me not to do that, but to send him to another school. Sio. On what ground did he advise you not to send your sou to Harrow School? I suppose it was consistent with what he thought right, but I consider that my children are of the kindred of the founder, and ray grandfather was at school there, when Harrow was far more aristoci-atic than it is now, for some years previous to 1783. My children, through their mother, and through my- self, come of a family the members of which have been educated even as foreigners at the school. It is really the school of my family ; therefore I say I have an undoubted right to the foundation for my children ; they are very young at present ; still they show that they are likely to be clever, and I ought to have that opportunity of educating them. 811. Lord Lytteltoii.] It is in deference to Mr. Butler's advice that you are unwilling to send your children to the school, as I understand you ? I do not say that I was ready to send them yet, because they are A^ery young ; but as a father, I looked upon this Bill myself as being brought forward, because though the tradesmen and the middle classes of Harrow have not availed themselves of the school as yet, it was thought that we might soon wish to do so. They were afraid we should want to exercise our rights, and that with the increasing intelligence of the middle classes of this country we might begin to value this education, and it was feared that we should drive away some of the rich boys. 1 believe from the sons of the nobility who were at school with my grandfather, he received the greatest consideration, 1 believe that they would not treat a foundationer otherwise than well, whatever his position might be. Persons who have risen in wealth are more jealous of the sons of tradespeople, and the mixing of classes, than the sons of the nobility are. 812. Earl Stanhope.'] For what walk in life do you intend your son ? I think every family has a right to try and raise itself ; there are various vicissitudes in life, and I maintain that any person, especially if his family ia former times occupied a better position than he does now, has a perfect right to push his children forward and lift them up a little, if he can do so. 813. I am SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 133 813. I am only asking what further views you have for the edueation of Mr. W. IVinlUey. your son after leaving Harrow ; do you mean to send him to the University ? That would he my object. I should like to do so, if h(^ ])rofited by his '/ Jt'' Maj - .865. education. 1 believe if 1 invest every farthing I have in my child's edueation, it will be better than leaving him a f(.'w paltry hundreds when I die. I main- tain that a boy at Harrow, whether the son of a labourer, or the son of a trades- man, if he had the ability to profit by that education, ought to have the advantages of John Lyon's school ; and 1 protest against anybody taking that right from me. 814. If you intcndsd your son for a University education, why did ]Mr. Butler advise you not to send him to Harrow ; upon what ground did he give you that advice ? x He gave me no particular grounds, but he certainly gave me that advice, and another master did the same. 1 apprehend tlie reason was, because I happened to be a bookseller ; but I do value education, and if being a trades- man is to debar me from the privileges of that education for my children, I will give up that business to-morrow. All I derive from my business, directly or indirectly, I would give up to-morrow to have the benefit of that education for my two boys. 815. Lord Lyttcltou.'] Do you mean to convey the impression that two masters of Harrow, one of them being the head master, desire to keep their school exclusively for the benefit of the higher class ? 1 do ; and it was my impression that when this Commission came into operation justice would be done, and that the benefits of HaiTow Foundation would be extended instead of limited. I was very much disappointed when I read the recommendations, but I believe the recommendations were founded upon ex parte evidence. 816. Mr. Michael.'] Do you know, with respect to the lower form at present, the Enghsh form, whether boys are allowed from that form to enter the upper school ? They are not allowed to enter the upper school from that form. 817. Do they sign a paper upon admission, that they will not seek admission to the upper school ? Not exactly ; they sign a paper saying that though they are upon the foundation, they are not upon the foundation, and that they are not to worship in the same chapel as the other boys. 818. Lord L]/lteltu)i.] What is the paper you speak of? It has been published. Each parent who wishes to place his son upon the foundation has to sign a document. In fact, the document comes to this, that his son is not to be considered upon the foundation of the public school. 8ig. Cannot you show the Committee that document? I think I can get a copy of it. I have not got it now. 820. Earl Stanhope.] Do you mean to say that that paper is signed, as a rule, before the boy enters ? I believe it is signed, as a rule, by the parents. I can only tell your Lord- ship that I copied it out originally. I know it was signed when the school was first instituted, and I believe it has been signed since. 821. Earl of Derby.] You know, of your own knowledge, that the paper you refer to has been signed ? Yes, I am sure of it. I can say that it is authentic- 822- Mr- Michael-] Is this the paper you refer to {handing a paper to the Witness) ? Yes ; it is Rule 1 of this document. 823. Earl of jDer/;^.] What is that document ? It is the rules of the English form ; the document which Dr. Yaughan re- quired parents to sign previously to placing their sons in the school. He says, " The boys will regard themselves as entirely separate in all respects from those of the public school as at present existing ; they will have (it is hoped) ^90.) R 3 their 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 15th May 1865. Mr. W. WinUey. their own bathing place and playground, and will on no account mix them- selves with the games, &c., of the higher schools. This rule being made for the bi-nefit of the new form (to secure them from any interference or annoy- ance from the public school), will, it is earnestly trusted, be strongly enforced by the parents of the new scholars." 824. Lord Lyttelto)!.'] (To Mr. Michael.) You do not contend that that paper has any prospective character, or binds the parents not to try to get their sons into the big school : Mr- Michael-'] I think, my Lord, that is the intention of it- The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. J. Chapman. MR. JOHN CHAPMAN is called in ; and Examined, as follows : S25. Mr. Michael.'] YOU are a Tradesman of HaiTow, I believe ? Yes. 826. And the proprietor of Harrow Gasworks ? Yes. 827. You have heard Mr. Butler's scheme ? Yes. 8'i8. Would that satisfy you, as a tradesman, for the future ? Not in the least. 829. Would you wish that your family should have the advantage of John Lyon's foundation at Harrow School ? Yes, I should ; though I have not availed myself of them. I have sent my son to Brighton. I never thought Dr. Vaughan's school good enough myself for my son. I have only one, and I intended to make him a civil engineer ; accordingly, 1 sent him to a preparatory school at Brighton when he was seven years of age, and after he had been there some time he went to another school for three years, and then finislied at King's College School. It cost me 800 /. to give him that education. He has been with Air. Brydone, the railway engi- neer, for some time. My son says if he had been educated at Harrow School it rood a good many H arrow would liave been an advantage to him ; he meets with boys, and he feels it a denial to him that he was not at the school. 830. Chairman.] Why did you not send him there ? I can only say that one after another we keep on treading in the footsteps of our predecessors. People who have been living there a long while do not avail themselves of advantages which people coming in find out at once. You need to train people to value even the advantages of education in these great public schools ; it all depends upon circumstances. At Rugby the tradesmen avail themselves of the education at Rugby School ; at Harrow we do not. They are a step in advance of us, or something of that kind ; they push on more than we do. Not that we do not value education, for you see what it costs us ; I spent 800 /. upon it for my son. 83 1 . You have only yourself to complain of if you did not send your son to Harrow School ; as a resident at Harrow you were in a position to obtain all the benefits of John Lyon's foundation, but you did not take advantage of them. Yes ; but I think what Mr. Winkley said is true, there has been discourage- ment. S32. Did you find any discouragement? I did not think of sending my son to the English form for a moment. 833. Did you think of sending him to the Great School ? I should not have sent him tliere unless he was prepared for it. 834. Lord Lyttelton.] You mean to say, do you not, that you followed the usage of the i)lace ? Yes, that was just it; there was, perhaps, a little backwardness on our part ; I do not complain of anybody ; I have not blamed anybody. 835. Earl SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PniM.IC SCHOOLS BILL- [ll. L.l 135 835. Earl Stanhope.'] Still, if you claim any aclvantago, it is a fair question Mr. J. Chapman. to put to vou, why, beint^ entitled to that advantage, you did not make use , . !~ „„ f -. r. . ' ^ ' D o ! J \^^\^ jyi^y i8f,^. Yes. The Witness is direeted to withdraw. MR. ALEXANDER EDWARD MILLER is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 836. YOU are a Member of the Equity Bar ? ^r. A. E. Miller. Yes. 837. And you have gone to reside in the neighbourhood of Harrow to obtain the advantages of this education for your children r Yes, partly ; I will not undertake to say that that was the only reason ; I was obliged to live within easy distance of London ; but that was one of the elements of my consideration. 838. You are two or three miles from Harrow, are you not ? Yes. I have just purchased a field, upon which I am going to build a house, about three miles from the school, 839. Shall you be able to avail yourself of the advantages of the foundation ? That will depend upon whether I am entitled to send my boys over ; driving or not, I am prepared, as things are now, to try that question in the Court of Chancery, when the time comes. 840. Chairman.'] The driving question ? Yes ; but if there is adverse legislation in the meanwhile, I may be precluded from doing it. I may mention, as one of my objects in going there, that I see the advantage of the public school education if I can get it. The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Rev. CHARLES CLEMENT LA YARD is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : 841. YOU are the Incumbent of Sudbury, are you not r Rev. C. C.Layard. No, of Wembley. 842. And you highly value the privilege of Harrow School for the purpose of educating your children ? I do. John Lyon's property, at Preston, is in my ecclesiastical parish. 843. In your opinion, would it be a great injuiy if this foundation were swept away ? It would be a grievous injury. 844. Would it be extremely felt by yourself, as a clergyman ? I have been 20 years a clergyman, and I have an incumbency under 200 /. a year, and 1 have seven children, one of whom is at Harrow School at the present time ; owing to particular circumstances I am residing at Harrow, but my predecessor in the incumbency, Mr. Lawes, sent two boys, who, I believe, rode backwards and forwards to Harrow School, and my successor might have no private means ; I feel, therefore, that I am bound to maintain his position if I can. One of the advantages and inducements to take such a poor incum- bency as mine is that of educating my children, of whom I have three boys, and I feel that a future incumbent might not have any private means, and it might be a very gi-eat object to him. I represent, too, the farmers in m}- parish, whose views are sti-ong upon this point ; and also I have the honour to men- tion that your Lordship's son-in-law, the Honouiable Mr. Cadogan, resides in my parish, and there a great man}' families the members of which would be (90.) R 4 well 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Iltv. C. C. Lat/ard. Well fitted to take the position of governors if local governors v?ere required in the neighbourhood. There are other a;entlemen of large propertv. ijth May 1865. ° _ ^ b 1 1 J 845-6. At what distance is your incumbency ? T do not live there, owing to my wife's failure of bcalth. I have been obliged to go on to higher ground. I may mention one thing, that I feel it is very desirable that some of the governors should be local residents, because, as in the present instance, I feel that we are suffering from the fact of having nobody whom we could take our grievances to- 1 may state further to the Committee, that my son is suffering from asthma very severely, and I had to send him to Brighton School at one time ; but since I have been on higher ground at Harrow I corresponded with Mr. Butler, requesting that he might be let off his bills. Mr- Butler wrote a very kind letter in reply, saying that he did not know how he could do it; but he made one exception, which was one bill on the Saturday. I think the having to go four times up to the school on Sunday, in addition to the whole week-day work, is a very great tax, because the boys get no rest all the term. On Sundays they have to go three times to chapel, and once to be examined on the lesson by their master. This, 1 think, with regard to myself, who might instruct my own child in divinity, at any rate, is a great hardship, especially in respect of a boy situated as my boy is- 847. Earl of Derhi/.l "What is the distance of your residence from the school ? About 10 minutes ; but it is up the iiill, against the collar, and my boy suffers from asthma ; he has to leave the school at \, and go home for his dinner, and then be back again at 2. 848. He has to go back again just after his dinner? Yes ; there is so little time that he often has to come back for his pudding after he has been up to his bill. These are little facts, but I think that they are worth mentioning. The Witness is directed to withdraw. MR. CHARLES COX is called in ; and Examined by Mr. Michael, as follows : Mr. C. Cox. 849. YOUR father was a captain in the army, was not he ? . He was. 850. And you are in the Admiralty ? I am. 8.5 1 . You are a resident at Pinner ? Yes, and I have been so going on for 12 years. 852. You are obliged to leave Pinner, are you not, because the advantages of Harrow School are not open to you there ? Yes, of course, being in a Government office one's income is not large, and I have a great many boys ; therefore, it w'ould be a great advantage to me if Harrow School were open to me, as it ought to be under John Lyon's founda- tion ; T should then be able to send my sons to the school. The rules now practically forbid my sending them; therefore, I am going away; I am in treaty for a house near a school where the rules are far more liberal, and Avhere boys living some distance from the school ai'c excused from the bills, which are rigorously enforc{>d at Harrow in order to exclude those boys who live at a distance. 85 p. Chairman.'] Is it only by the rule respecting hills, or by the other rule whieli has been mentioned, resjiecting riding, that you consider that your sons ;ire practically excluded from the school r My neighbotu-s and myself could afford to send our boys by carriage or on horseback to the school if it were allowed; we could also take a room in Harrow, where the boys could continue their studies, and eat their dinners, and could work out of school ; but the head master says I am not to do so. He is far more carelul of my children than 1 am myself. 854. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 137 8,54. Do you consider that these regulations, both as to the mode of arrivin'>- ^^''- C- Cox. at the school, and as to the bills, are purposely directed, as you seem to say they , TT — were, to prevent boys from coming from a distance ? i5 t May 18 65 My own opinion is, and the opinions of the inhabitants generally are, that they are purposely directed to exclude as many as possible from the school. 855. Do you think that is the object of the bills too? The bills are, nominally, to prevent the boys from running u|) to Town ; but, after all, if a boy is with his father he is quite as safe as he would \m at school ; but every Saturday afternoon I should have to send my boy up, to be there at the bills. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. Michael inquires whether the Committee will permit Counsel to put questions to Mr. Butler, when he is under examination, at the next sitting of the Committee. Mr. Cottrell makes a similar application with respect to the examination of Dr. Temple. The Counsel and parties are directed to withdraw. After a short time, the Counsel and parties are again called in. The Chairman states that the Committee are of opinion that the Counsel may be present during the examination of Dr. Temple and Mr. Butler, but that they m;iy not examine those witnesses, although, of course, it will be competent to them to suggest a question to any Peer. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Friday next, Twelve o'clock. (90.) > SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 139 Die Vene?is, W Mail 1865. PRESENT Lord President. Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Hareowby. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount EVERSLEY. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord "Wrotteslet. Lord Houghton. THE EARL OF CLARENDON, in the Chair. Mr. Michael hands in a statement to be substituted for that delivered in by Mr. Humbert at the last sitting of the Committee, with respect to the valuation of the trust property under John Lyon's Will. Mr. Cottrell^ Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to supply an omission which I made in my observations last week. I referred to a case which had been decided by Lord Langdale ; and it struck me afterwards that, inasmuch as a portion of the subject now under your Lordships' consideration is, in point of fact, res judicata, 1 ought to have put your Lordships in possession of the decision of Lord Langdale in that case. It is very short ; I shall not have to cite more than 10 lines of it to your Lordships, to show you what it was. It seems to me to have very material reference to the principle you have to con- sider , and therefore I ought to have told you more of it than I did. The question was raised in the case of Rugby School, and the matter came before the late Lord Langdale, in the year 1839, upon the petition of certain persons who complained that the foundationers had not so much benefit as they thought themselves entitled to from the foundation of Rugby School ; in short, that there was too much attention paid to the interests of boarders, in opposi- tion to, as it were, or rather to the detriment of, the foundationers ; and Lord Langdale says this : " It is quite obvious that the principle upon which the Court acts in such a case is this — the benefit of the objects of the foundation is most to be regarded ; and though other persons may be allowed to receive very great benefits from a charity of this kind, yet it must be for this reason — that the persons originally intended to receive the benefit of the foundation may, by the association of other persons with them, receive a greater benefit from it than they would otherwise do."— Lord Langdale held, therefore, that the first object to be considered was the foundationers. igth May 18C5. The Rev. FREDERICK TEMPLE, d.d., is caUed in; and Examined, as follows : 856. Chairman.'] YOU are the Head Master of Rugby School r I am. 857. May I ask how long you have been Head Master ? Since the beginning of 1858. 858. You have, I believe, seen the evidence that was taken before the Com- mittee with respect to Rugby a few days ago ? I have. I have read it. (90.) s 2 859. You The R(i. F. Temple, d.d. 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T/ic Rev. 859. You are aware that the Committee determined that the evidence should F. T emple , d.d. jjg restricted to the interests supposed to be injuriously affected by the provi- i^th May 1865. ^^°"^ *^^ *^^^ PubHc Schools Bill, and that it was, I believe, so restricted ; but of course, in the course of that evidcncp, a great deal was said respecting a new school which you thought of jiroposing to the trustees, and which, in fact, you had proposed to the trustees, in a report of yours to them of last year ; and the opinion of the witnesses was given upon that proposed school ? Yes. 860. You not only tendered yourself as a witness, but the Committee thought it would be very desirable that we should hear your own opinion as to the extent to which the foundationers would be affected, and the manner in Avhich you think the school you propose would meet the requirements of the foundationers, supposing they were deprived of the benefit they now enjoy under the bequest of Lawrence iSherriff. Therefore the Committee have asked you to attend here to-day. I do not know whether it would be more agreeable to you to be asked any questions with respect to the evidence which has been given ; perhaps it would save your time, and the time of the Committee, if you were to make a statement ujjon that evidence ? I think I should prefer making a statement ; but I hope I may be allowed to go into the whole matter, and not simply to speak with reference to that school. 861. Certainly ; the Committee will be very glad to hear anything you have to say ? I should like to begin by saying a very few words with respect to the inten- tion of the founder ; because, of course, in making that proposal to the trustees, I had the intention of the founder, as far as I could ascertain it, present to my mind. It appears to me that, in interpreting a will or deed of that date, we have a right, not only to look to the words which the founder used, but also to the general state of the country at the time, and to other foundations of a similar character all over England. I have for very many years paid a great deal of attention to the foundations of the older grammar schools. I have studied a great many of the wills, and have derived a very strong impression of what was the general purpose of the founders of all those schools ; and my impression certainly is, that they were thinking much more of education than of charity ; because the schools, in very many cases, do not contemplate poverty at all. They seem plainly to imply that they are as ready to educate the rich as the poor, because I presume the great object was to encourage education, and in those days, when education was not valued as much as it is now, the best way of encouraging it seemed to be to give it freely to any one that would take it, and to establish schools of that character within reach of as many people as possible, and therefore a great many schools were established just about the same time. The establishment of the grammar schools, which began about the reign of Edward VI., continued throughout that and the two following reigns, at a rate which you do not find at all afterwards, and apparently it was intended to supply a great national need. Therefore I cannot help presuming that, in interpreting the intention of the founder, we have to look upon the promotion ^ of education as his primary object ; and certainly I think myself, that the benefit to the locality was in all cases really secondary in the founder's mind, and that he gave the benefit to the locality as the best means of promoting general education. I have no doubt at all that it was in that day by far the best means of promoting general education, th"Ugh I do not think it is so in this day. I'he original intention of the founder, Mr. Lawrence Sherriff, as defined by his will, confines the benefits of the foundation to the parishes of Rugby and Bro\\nov(!r, and then to the adjoining parishes. That was extended by an Act of Parliament, in ^777, to any place within 10 miles in Warwickshire, and within five miles in the two adjoining counties. But there has been a jjractical extension during th(' last century without any Act of Parliament at all, simply from the change of circumstances, which is far greater than any previous exten- sion, and whic^h may be looked upon in two different ways ; either as a step towards a still greater extension, which 1 should wish myself, or as a thing to be preserved just as it stands. From, I supjjose, a very early time, perhaps it may l)e from the begimiing, there has never been any distinction made; between those who belong ri'ally to Rugby and those who merely come there for the pui'pose SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 141 purpose of education. The consequence is, that there has never been any The Her. attempt to prevent persons from coining there in any numbers, and now the result I'- Temple, d.d. is this : — I went over the years from 1851 io 18U0. I took those 10 years as ~ — representing fairly enough the present time, and 1 find that 1 11 faiuilics availed ^ 9^ °y '^" 5- themselves of the foundation during that time; and of those 141 families I find that 92 came there simply for the purpose of putting their children to school ; that is very nearly in the proportion of one and a half to one. Of those 92, 75 have already left, and to my knowledge 10 more will be leaving in a short time, proving that the great bulk of the j^arents of those foundationers are merely sojourners or passers through the jilaee ; that they come there simi)ly for the sake of the school, in the first instance, and that immediately after their sons are educated, or very soon after, they quit it, and do not become Rugbeians or permanent residents in the town in any true sense at all. This is the present state of things. I do not think that it works at all ill, if we could hope to keep up the school entirely ujjon its present footing ; but there has arisen a need, and a very real need, of a change. There is a very serious drain upon the school at this moment, in consequence of the opening of other foundations. I already find that, year after year, all the cleverest boys that are put down upon my list to come to Rugby are taken off by the com- petitive examinations to go to Eton or to Winchester. The school is certainly very full, and it is not doing ill ; but I think the Public School Commission were perfectly justified in saying that no school could long stand such a drain as that. If the school had to run a race with such a weight upon it as that against the other great public schools, it would inevitably suffer at last. Of course it must suffer very greatly in reputation, because if all the clever boys are taken off from us and go to other schools, we cannot possibly in the long run make as good a show at the Universities. But it is not only that it suffers in reputation ; the education at the school to very great extent depends not only upon the master, but also upon the boys. Any one who has had anything to do with a school knows perfectly well that the very best master in the world cannot teach two stupid boys by themselves nearly as well as if there is a clever boy at their side to be constantly stirring them to emulation and constantly showing them a higher standard. It is inevitable that if the standard of talent in a school goes down, the education given in the school will be very seriously damaged. I was very anxious to put that strongly before the Com.mittee, because I think that whilst there is a strong feeling in the town of opposition to the present Bill, I do not believe the town are aware of the facts which I know, and I am quite certain that the great body of the town would be exceedingly sorry if anything were to happen which should lower their great school in eompai'ison to the other great schools of the country. I am quite sure that the opposition would be very much modified if they felt as strongly as I feel, that we cannot go on long just as we are, and that it is absolutely necessary to provide the means of introducing- into the school such a supply of real talent as shall keep up its standard. It was for this reason that I proposed in my Report to the trustees that they should endeavour, whilst they met all the existing interests as far as it was possible to do so, to assist in procuring the change recommended by the Public School Commission ; namely, that the foundation should be thrown open to the whole of England. I believe even that if many of those who are opposed to this Bill were once convinced that the choice was between making some sacrifice, I do not say sacrificing anything, but making some real sacrifice, or let- ting the school go down, a very large number of them indeed would rather make the sacrifice. I do not mean that they all would ; of course in all such cases there would always be some who would be exceedingly unwilling to have any change made at all, from a feeling of attachment to things as they were. There will always be some also who would not be willing to sacrifice anything which they thought their right, even to procure a public or local benefit ; but 1 do not think that that is the feeling of the town as a whole. The scheme which I proposed was the best that I could devise to meet all the requirements of the case. It appeared to me that the persons I was bound to consider were these : — First, the poorer foundationers, and secondly, the general public of England. The rich foundationers, those who could well afford to pay for the education of their children, I thought might as well be lelt out of consideration altogether. It was not too much to ask of them that they should make a sacrifice of their rights for such an object. But the poor foun- (90.) s 3 dationers. 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. dationerri, I thought, would be provided for, and better provided for than at emp^ . . T^Yc^ent, by the school which I proposed to establish. The school wliich I loth May 1865 proposed to establish was what might be called a first-rate middle school ; tliat ' is to say, a first rate school of the same kind as the second school at King Edward's at Birmingham, and as the second school at the College at FJverpool, both of which are well-known institutions, and both of them very successful, and known to be giving a very first-rate education. I proposed that this school should teach, not 'Greek, but Latin, and P'rench, and mathematics as thorouglily as possible, so that in such a school boys might be, for instance, prepared for the Army examinations, for the Civil Service examinations, and for any examinations of that kind. In such a school it seemed to me that the children of the tradesmen might receive an exceedingly good education, first-rate of its kind, and that there might be also not a few of the poorer gentry who would be glad to get such teaching. But of course I could not say whether the gentry would avail themselves of such a school or not. It is always impossible to predict how such a school may work in that respect; but that it would supply all the needs of the tradesmen, I felt tolerably certain. I proposed that it should be connected with the great school by a number of exhibitions, which would carry deserving boys from the one to the other. The question of whether there should be more or fewer of those exhibitions I looked upon as a question of detail, about which certainly I should not have advised the trustees to stand particidaily to the number that I proposed. It ought not to be, 1 think, such a number as would piactically overload the great school; but, on the other hand, it ought to be quite enough to supply the demand which there might exist on the part of the cleverer amongst the sons of the tradesmen, to receive altogether a superior kind of education. ^62. How many of those exhibitions did you propose to have ? I proposed seven ; but I say I looked upon that as a matter of detail. 863 I suppose you do not mean seven every year? iSo, not seven every year : they would be tenable for seven years, and one would be filled up every year. ^64. Earl of HarrDwbij.'] There would be one exhibition every year then? Yes ; one every year. I thought that in that wav the sons of the poorer gentry — say, for instance, the poorer professional men — might find a means of rising up into the great school, because they would certainly have a very considerable advantage in the race. They would have the advantage of coming from more educated homes, and I know very well that that advantage is very great indeed. I contemplate, therefore, that, as a general rule, the poorer gentry would get a very large proportion of those exhibitions, provided they chose to avail themselves of the t;'aching given at such a school. I do not mean of course that there would be no sacrifice involved in this ; I can only say that upon any such scheme, nihil est ah otnni parte beatum ; you cannot have everything as you would wish ; and it was on the whole the best I could devise, seeing that it seemed to me a duty to the great school to throw open the great bulk of the foundation. There remained, of course, the con- sideration of the interests of the sojourners. Those sojourners, who are on the average two-tliirds of the foundationers, I considered to represent the people of England generally. It is no doubt a very great advantage to them that they are able to come to such a school as that and get a free education, and there is a very great deal of good done in that way. A great many of the gentry who are too poor to get the education of a public school without this opening, can get it if they will come to Rugby and live there. But it aj)pears to me that, in dt-aling with this matter, you have to consider that there is so much money to spend on free education which you cannot increase, and that the question is how best you shall select those who shall be the recipients of it. The mass is too large to educate them all. It is not said that we are educating the whole body of the poorer gentry of this country. We cannot do it, nor anything more than a very small fraction of it. We have therefore neces.sarily to caboose amonarst them. How are we to choose I As it is at present, we are making a sort of blind choice ; that is, we give a free education to those who, for one reason or another, are able to come and live in Rugby. There may be hundreds of others a great deal more deserving, both X on SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. I..] 143 on account of poverty, and on account of character, and uii account of talent, The Itcv. all of whom are not taken into consiileration at all. We dimply make a rule F. Temple, d.d. that we sliall take those who are ahle from accidental circumstances to trans- • plant themselves from whatever part of England they have been living in and igthMay iSfij. come to Rugby to live. Now that does seem to me making a very great " mistake. If the question wen^ whether we should take the l)enefit away from those poorer gentry and give it to others who were not so poor, I think a great deal might be said for the sojourners. 15ut as far as my experience goes (and of course we must go by experience), in these open competitions we get quite as large a proportion, if not rather larger, of the sons of poor gentry tlian we get on the present plan. On the present i)lan, a rich man may come to live in Rugby and avail himself of the foimdation just as much as a jjoor iiian. It is not, therefore, the fact that this foundation makes a provision for the poor to come in ; it takes in both the poor and the rich alike. But on the open system, I believe you would find that quite as many poor would be taken in as before. It has been said in the evidence of Mr. ilamsay, and I thought it was a very forcible argument indeed, I was very much struck with it, that at first sight you might say that, in such a comjietition, a rich man has the advantage, because his son can be prepared for this kind of competi- tion, whilst the poor man cannot afford it. 1 think there was a great deal of truth in that 20 years ago. There is very much less truth in it now ; and I believe, in proportion as the foundations are opened, there will be less and less truth in it, as time goe? on, and in a very little while I think there will be no truth in it at all. At this very moment, for instance, when parents come to Rugby, they do not put their children into the great school until they are about 13 or 14 ; they put them, in preference, to a preparatory school in the town, and an exceedingly good preparatory school it is, where they get them prepared at a cost of about 16 /. 16 s. a year. They can there be prepared for the open competition, as well as they can in any part of England. I am quite certain that no amount of expense would procure a better preparation for the ordinary examination for a scholarship than can be got at that school at this moment. Parents send their sons to that school now for this reason : that they do not like to send little boys to a great school. I believe that they are perfectly right in that feeling ; I believe that it would be a very great mistake to send little boys to a great school ; I think it is bad for them. I think that the liberty of a great school is too much for children of 10 or 1 1. J prefer myself not having them until after they are 13 ; in fact, until they are very nearly 14. But quite irrespective of what I might prefer, as a matter of fact, the poor gentry do not send their sons until about that age ; and it is plain, therefore, that they are perfectly able to provide this preparation for their sons. This preparatory school is new in Rugby, but there are preparatory schools of the same kind springing up all over the country ; they are very much increasing, and I believe that it will not be long before, for such purposes, parents may get proper preparation, without very great difficulty, almost all over England. Then there is this consideration to be taken into account ; that if you admit the children of the poor gentry as before, only upon the principle of open competition, you certainly have in the first place those to whom the want of high cultivation is the greatest loss. It is a comparatively slight loss to boys of a low scale of intellect if they do not get a very high kind of education. In fact, I can see every now and then that there are boys who get very little benefit, except the mere benefit of association with their fellows, from the teaching at the school. Their intellects will not take in any more, and though it is good for them, no doubt, to live among their fellows, I cannot say that the education, as far as the books are concerned, does really very much for them. But to a boy who has real ability it is the greatest possible loss to be unable to culti- vate it ; it is to him a real deprivation. Those are the boys, therefore, who have, it seems to me, the first claim. I may say that just as to them it is the greatest loss if they do not get it, so also to them is it the greatest boon if they do get it. They are the boys who afterwards are able to use it to ad- vantage, and as they rise in the world, they find that every step only brings them more and more into the position that is natural to them. In the second place, the school that admits the boys by this selection, re- ceives a very great benefit. They are the greatest possible benefit to the (90.) s 4 school 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. School to which they come ; they assist in educating the whole school, simply f. T emple , dd. ■^^, ^ij^.jj. presence. Then lastly, there is this, which seems to me a very im- igth May i86r. portant consideration : it is quite undeniable that on the principle of open competition, you really educate by the stimulus that you gii'e, 10 boys for 1 that you take ; because there are quite certain to be 10 boys preparing for this race ; they will all be educated for that purpose, and very often indeed they would not be educated nearly so well if it were not for that stimulus. I can see already what the effect of an examination in such a school as ours is, by the effect jn'oduced by the public entrance examinations that we have introduced on the recommendation of the Public School Commissioners. They recom- mended, amongst other things, that there should be an entrance examination. We adopted that recommendation ; it has not been at work very long, but it has already produced a very clear and perceptible difference in the degree to which the boys are prepared before they come to us. 1 can already see that the masters of the preparatory schools know more precisely what to aim at. Before that examination was instituted, I constantly found that they were aiming at getting the boys if possible to suit a particular tutor, to get into a particular form, much more than to be ready for doing the school work ; but now, having a public examination at which all must come in and be examined alike, they already have a standard by which they work. The entrance papers are eagerly sought for afteri»ards, and everywhere tliey look upon that as the thing at which they are to aim, and the stimulus of having not only such an entrance examination, but besides that the competitive examinations for the clever boys, will improve the education in all those schools quite to an incal- culable degree. This is the reason why I very earnestly advocate the entire abolition of the privileges of the sojourners, and the transference of those privileges to boys elected on open competition. Of course there will be some sufferers ; that is to say, as AJr. Ramsay put it, there will be cases where boys who have been neglected for one reason or another will fail in the competition. But that is a thing which you cannot jjrovide for. On the contrary, it is obvious that the right thing to do is to make arrangements which, if possible, will prevent boys from being neglected, and will put as strong a stimvdus as you can put upon the parents to see that the boys a,re properly prepared ; whereas at present it is, as it were, a sort of premium upon neglecting the proper preparation of the boys, because, whether they are prepared or not, if they only can come to Rugby, the boys can go into the school and have the education without any reference to previous acquirements. It is obvious that it is not good for the boys themselves that such a state of things should be encouraged. That is prelty nearly the substance of the statement that I wished to submit to the Committee. But I wished to say one thing on the evidence which you have already received and which I have read. In that evidence I find, in several places, a comjjlaint made that the school does not educate the younger children, that the lower forms have been abolished. To that I must reply this : that the abolition of the lower forms is no act of the school at all ; that a form in a school means (it can mean nothing else) the presence of the boys and a master ready to teach them. The master is there and the forms are not there, because the boys are not sent. That is entirely in the hands of the parents. I have never refused to take any boy who was fit to begin learning Latin at all ; and at this moment, with 500 boys in the school, and with the forms all through the school so full that almost all the forms consist of above .30, and my own form is 4/, I have at this moment two masters teaching 24 boys at the bottom • of the school, in order that they may be perfectly ready to take any boys that come, at whatever stages they may lie, if only they arc fit to begin learning Latin at all. I do not know what more could be done in the way of creating lower forms. 865. Chairman.^ What are the average ages of those boys in the lower forms ? I cannot give you the average age off-hand, but there arc boys there under 12 ; between 1 1 and 12. 866. Are there hoys whom you consider arc not yet fit to begin Latin ? No, they are fit to begin Latin, or I should not have admitted them at all. The scliool is a classical school, and if they are not fit to begin Latin it is clear that they have no right to come in. 867. Duke SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 145 867. Duke of M(irlboroud, and 1st forms ; but the 4th, 3d, and 1st forms are really no more than one. They are all put together, but they would be separated if there were hoys enough to re- quire it. 868. Would they be equivalent to what was originally the lower form? Certainly ; the real reason why the boys do not come is simply this, that the parents have found out, what I believe to be quite true, that it is not good for the boys to come at an early age ; that the treedom of a great school is not good for such little boys, and therefore they do not send them ; but the masters are there ready to teach any that do come. 86(). Earl of Carnarvon.'] What would be the minimum age at which you would conceive that a boy could or ought to begin Latin ''■ That would depend entirely upon his previous preparation ; but, as a general rule, I believe hoys ought to begin Latin at eight, or perhaps seven. I think I began it myself at seven, and I do not think I began it too early. 870. You would receive boys at eight, if they came ? I would receive them if they came and were tit to begin learning Latin. I mean by being fit being able to read English with perfect fluency. I «hould not consider a boy fit to begin learning Latin if he was 1 2, provided he could not yet read English ; I do not consider that it is at all the business of a great school to teach the boys to read English. 871. Earl of Hanmvb'i/ .] If he could read and write Enghsh well, and spell well, you would admit him ? If he could read and write English well, I should be perfectly ready to admit him ; but if a parent comes to me with a very young boy of that kind, and savs " Do you advise me to put that boy in the school?" I should certainly say, " No, I do not advise it, because I do not think it is good for so little a boy." 872. Chainnan.'] If I understand you rightly, you would take a boy into this lowest form who had not begun Latin, but who was only, fit to begin it .' Yes, I have done so several times. 873. That is to say, being satisfied that children can read and write English correctly, you would think them fit to begin Latin, and you would take them into the school ? I should. 874. Earl of Ilarrotvbi/.] You do not make it an essential requirement that there should be any knowledge of Latin previously r No, not at all. 875. Chairmcm.] How long have those forms been established? I think they have always been in existence. I do not think they have ever ceased to exist. 876. Therefore it would appear that there is no just ground for the com- plaint, that the lowest form for the education of the younger boys has been abolished at Rugby ? I cannot go back into the past, and speak of what may have happened in Dr. Arnold's time; but as far as my knowledge goes, there is no foundation for the charge whatever ; it is simply this, that the forms have disappeared because it was found by the parents that it was not good for the boys that they should come so young. The people in the town have observed that the forms have disappeared, and not being schoolmasters, and therefore not always seeing what the reasons are, they say, What is the school about that it has not these forms r But the school has nothing to do with it at all. 877. Eail of Harrowby.] Did the school ever admit a lower form in which Latin was not taught ? I do not know ; I should think certainly not. (90.) T 87S. Earl 146 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 878. Earl of Derby ?^ Is there any provision in the will of the founder upon that V. Tempk, D.D. subject ? I do not think there is ; I am pretty certain tliat thert- is not. I9lh May 1865. 879. Not as to the character of the e ducation ? There is a pro^asion that the school sliall be a grammar school. 880. Earl of Hciirmvby.] There is not at Kugby the class called " PL^tties"' alluded to in the statutes r No, it is not a Rugby term. 881. C/iairmafi.^ You stated you had lately, and partly in consequence of the recommendations of the School Commission, estal)!ished an entrance, or, I suppose you would call it a test examination, and tiiat that has worked well ; would you have the goodness to tell the Committee of what that test examina- tion consists. The Commissioners recommended that the principle on which we had pre- viously gone, namely, that the boys should be required to reach a certain part of the school by the time they came to a certain age, should be extended and made more precise ; and in accordance with that recommendation one of the rules made was that a boy must be above the lower school at the age of 15 ; and one great purpose of the entrance examination is to reject those boys who being above 1 5 are not fit to enter higher than the lower scliool. The other purpose of the examination is to determine in what form each boy is to be placed. The nature of the examination is this : we have the boys in for two or three hours in the morning of the first day of the half year, and for between two and three hours in the afternoon, and we give them some questions in grammar to answer on paper without any books. We give the;n a piece of Latin which they have never seen before, and a piece of Greek which they have never seen before, which they are to translate, with the help of their grammars and dictionaries, exactly as they would do if they were preparing it as a lesson for the school. And we give them an easy piece of English to turn into Latin, and we give them also some easy Latin verses to write. In that way we test whether a boy is fit to go into one form or another. With re- gard to those boys who can do very little of this, who can perhaps do nothing more than answer the questions in grammar and translate an easy piece of Latin, they Avould go into the lower school, or if they were above 1 5 they would not be admitted at all. If there were any who could do nothing of this examination at all, supposing they were proposed to come in as boarders, or rather as non-foundationers, I should refuse to admit them. I do not think it would be wise to tiave them in the school ; but if they proposed to come in as foundationers, they would come in at the bottom of the lower school. 882. Earl of Derby.] Have you a separate test examination according to the age of the boy who comes up as a candidate ? They all have the same papers, but the papers are graduated, so that we can see very quickly what a boy can do, and what he cannot. I mean to say, that all the boys, whether little boys or big boys, are set to work at the same paper; but we judge in this way : a little boy would perhaps only do the first two or three sentences, but a big boy would be expected to do pretty nearly the whole paper ; we judge by what they have done. 883. You stated that you did not admit the boys at all, unless, being of tlie age of 1 5, they were able to be above the lower school ; have you a compara- tive test with regard to boys of the ages of 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14, or any inter- mediate stage, requiring that a boy of 12 shall do so much, and a boy of 13 so much more, and a boy of 14, again, so much more? No, we have no such test below the age of 15 ; any boy below tlie age of 15 can come in if only he can read and write English well enough. 884. Earl of Hairoioby.] That is to say, be can come in as a founda- tioner r lie can come in as a foundationer. 885. But you would not receive him as a boarder? No. 886. Lord SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. | H. L.] 147 S8(). Lord LyllcUou.'\ In fact, you never do gee any boys whc* do not know ^TAe Rev. Latin at all, do you ? ' ^- Tempk, u.o. No. We have bad one or two, but very few ; none since this examination 19th May 18O5. has taken place. M87. Earl of Ilarr()wbij.'\ Has your test examination rejected any ''. We have rejected several. 888. What do you mean by several ? We have rejected about one-seventh. 889. Lord LylltUouP\ Those boys came to be non- foundationers r They came to be non-foiindationers. S90. Chairman^ You rejected them as being absolutely incompetent : As being incompetent for their age. 891. Before subjecting a boy to this test examination, do you make any in- quir}' as to his antecedents, or as to the education he has received ''. We require a certificate of his character ; we require a certificate from the school where he has been previously. 892. One of the main objects of the Commissioners in proposing this test examination for the different schools, was to ap],>ly the only pressure we knew how to devise upon parents ; because we had it in evidence, over and over again, that boys came in a state of complete ignorance to a public school, that parents thought it was (|uite sufficient to send them to the school, thinking that there they would receive the most elementary instruction, and that they need not take any care of them before they went to school ; is it your opinion, from the observation you have ah'eady made, that this test examination is likely to be useful in that respect ? It has already had a great effect, and I have no doubt will have a still greater effect, in accomplishing that object. 893. Eai'l of Harroivbi/.'] Before any boy conies as a boarder, there is a pre- vious correspondence with somebotly at the school ; either yourself or some other master, is there not ? Yes, always. 894. I suppose upon that occasion some previous inquiry takes place, to some small extent, as to the boy's competence or acquii'ements ; and if you found that a boy was coming totally ignorant, you would say it was no use his coming. Yes, if we had any means of knowing it ; but, as a general rule, masters of pre- paratory schools are very good judges of that. We send them our papers which were set at the previous entrance examination, and they know pretty accurately what the boys can do. 89.5. You think the parents consult the masters of the preparatory school before offering their boys to Rugby ? I think so, always. 89(). Earl Staiihope.~\ You stated that you required the certificate of a pre- paratory school as to the competence of boys before admitting them : As to character. 897. Do you make the certificate of the preparatory school an absolute con- dition ? No ; a boy may come from his tutor, or from his father if his father has chosen to teach him himself. 8g8. Then you would take the certificate irom the family r Certainly. S99. Earl of Harroivby.] Do many boys come to you first of all direct from private houses without having passed through schools r Not many. Some have done so. 900. Lord LytteltmiJ] Have you concluded the statement you wish to make to the Committee ? I wish to add one thing more to my statement, which I think is very well worth the consideration of the Committee. I wish to add one more argument (90.) T 2 which 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. which occurred to me, which is really a very practical argument indeed, on the F. Temple, d.d. comparative right to admission of those v?ho can come to live in Rugby and those who cannot. There is a class which, above all others, seems to me to 19th May 1865. Y\3.ve a sort of claim on the great places of education. I mean the poorer clergy. On the open system many of those clergymen could prepare clever bovs, if they were really boys of talent, so as to give them a very fair chance of scholarships. 901. Earl of Harrotvby.] At their own homes? Yes ; and that is the case to a less degree with other professional men some- times. But those men cannot come away to live in Rugby ; the thing is impos- sible ; and all those persons on the present plan are entirely shut out from this benefit ; yet I think their claims are inferior to none. go2. Lord Lyttelton.'] As it is, many of the poorer clergy make great efforts -J to send their children to Rugby, do they not Very great. 903. You have a great many of their sons ? Yes. Q04. Earl of HarrotvOj/.] In the test examination, is there anything but Latin and Greek required ; is there any inquiry as to arithmetic r We examine also in arithmetic and French. 905. Is there a test in English reading and writing r In EngHsh reading and writing we do not examine, but in case any founda- tioner, who was to be proposed for admission, showed no knowledge of Latin at all, I should examine myself in his power reading and writing. 906. Would it not be advantageous to have a test examination in English reading and writing, especially writing, in all schools, so as, if possible, to cause children to be better taught in their own language, in the early stages of their education ? I do not Hke to add to what we have already got to do. 907. Earl SifDi/iope.] What would be the nature of the examination that you propose for the competition ? It would be of the same character as the entrance examination, only rather harder. 908. Should you see any objection, or would it be possible, do you think, having considered this matter a good deal, to have a certain number of exhibi- tions open to the whole of England as you propose, at the same time keeping a certain number open to the inhabitants of the town r I confess, I think myself that that would be a mistake, because I do not think the school can do so much ; I do not think the revenues will bear it. It must be remembered that Rugby stands upon a somewhat different footing from Eton and Harrow. We have no aristocratic connection at all ; we have no connection of any such sort as will fill the school independently of what we can do. We depend entirely upon our work, and nothing else ; if that is damaged we go. 909. Lord Lyttelton.] You say you have a great pressure upon the school because the boys are drained away to Eton and Winchester ; you mean to the foundations of Eton and Winchester ? Yes ; it results from the opening of the college at both places. 910. Have you, as a fact, any of the children of people whom you might call wealthy peojile who have come to reside at Rugby for the benefit of the foundation. No, I think not ; I do not tliink that any have come to reside at Rugby for the benefit of the fuundation. 911.1 think you stated that it might happen ? It is a conceivable case, but it does not happen practically. 912. Earl of Uerhi/.'] Out of the 141 families you mentioned just now, how many do you conceive were persons who, l)ut for the advantage of this foundation, would SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 149 would not have been able to obtain the education they desired for their The Rev. children r ^'- ^^^' ''•^• I think, that out of those 141 families that I mentioned, 92 came for the , nth May 1865. purpose of education, and did not Ijoloni^ to Rugby at all ; those 1 jjut out of sight, because I consider that the sojourners would be replaced by the families of the scholars whom we introduced. 913. I do not want to put them out of sight ; I want to know of those 92, as well as of the others, how many there are who, having come to live at Rugby for the purpose of obtaining this education, have had an education for their children which they could not have afforded to give them otherwise ? 1 have not gone into that point ; I have not looked into into it, and I coidd not say without looking into it. 914. Do you not know the general circumstances of those families ? Yes. But if your Lordship means as to how they could afford to provide the education, I could not tell without looking carefully into it. 915. Is there a large proportion of them belonging to what you would call tlie wealthy classes ? Not a large proportion, 91 0. Very small, I suppose? I do not know al)out its being- very small ; my answer would be quite at random, and I would rather not give a random answer. I see that one of the random answers given before your Lordships last week was that 50 per cent, of the sojourners stayed in Rugby; now I can demonstrate that it is not 10 per cent. 917. Lord Lyttelton.'] I do not quite understand whether there were many or any persons whom you would call wealthy who have come to Rugby, and had the benefit of the foundation ? There are some. 918. I thought you said there were none ? I said I should not like to answer that question ; there have been some, per- haps a good many. 919. Earl of Harroichjj.'] Is not the fact of families coming and settling away from their natural residence at a place hke Rugby in itself an evidence that a cheap education is of great importance to them as a pecuniary matter ? To some extent it is, no doubt ; but youi- Lordship is aware that there are a great many parents who believe that the best education is a combination of a public school with a home education, and they prefer therefore to come and live close by the school, and put their boys in it. Those parents will come anyhow, and the more the school was changed for the better, the more they would come ; in fact, if the school had a veiy high place, and it was generally considered that to go there was to associate with clever boys, and if they were well taught, the numbers would increase. 920. Bishop of London.'] The Committee are right in supposing, are they not, that you have no objection to the system of sojourners in itself ; it is not to the sojourners themselves, or to the [iresent system of sojourners, that you object, but you think it is inconsistent with applying the money which they use to another purpose? I think it is inconsistent with applying the money to the best advantage. I have no objection to the sojourners at all ; in fact, I believe upon my plan there would be an increase in the number of the wealthier sojourners. I believe in all probability there would be no very great decrease in the total number of sojourners, because those scholarships I should always suppose to be tenable by sojourners as much as by boarders. 921. If it were possible, therefore, to devise any scheme by which that system should be kept up, and if it were at the same time possible to have a number of open scholarships, should you see any objection to that ? I should think it was wasting the money ; it would be spending the money to benefit one class of poor gentry who were not the most deserving. 922. Supposing that a sum of money was made available for that purpose, (90.) T 3 that 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOHE THE The Rev. that is to say, supi)osing the trustees did not, as at present, pay for all the F. Temple, d.d. foundationers, but that the foundationers were taught without any payrnenr, on account of the other general advantages whicli the masters derive from the 19th May 1865. foundation, should you consider that vrong r It seems to me to come to precisely the same thing. If the masters are not paid for them, it really means this, that the masters' salaries are to be robbed in order to provide for those persons. 923. It has been urged by several witnesses, more with respect to Harrow, perhaps, than to Rugby, that the general benefits of belonging to a foundation of that kind, the advantage of having a large house in which boarders are taken, and the general payments made to the masters, might be considered as a fair remuneration for teaching a certain number of foundationers living in the town ; that was urged especially with regard to Harrow, but to some extent with regard to Rugby ; should you think that unanswerable - I certainly think it would be false in principle. I do not see any other objection to it. I think it is better that a man should be paid for his work. 924. It is ui-ged that he is paid in another way r It is one of two things, in reality ; either a master is not paid at all, or he is paid by boarders who come to his house. 925. Dxike. oi Marlborough.'] At present the sum the trustees pay is about 1,200 /. a year, in round numbers, for fees for tiie education of foundationers .- I suppose it is. 926. .\nd for that sum, I think we have it in evidence, that about /O are educated r Yes. 927. Your plan would contemplate exhibitions of a value sufficient to carry the boys through the school as boarders, would it not ? Not to carry them through the school free as boarders, but it would do a great deal towards it. 928. I think as the funds of the trustees now stand, the trustees would hardly be able to spend a larger sum than 1,200 /. a year in paying tuition fees for foundationers or exhibitioners ; for that 1 ,200 /. a year, how many would your plan accommodate ? I propose that there should be 20 scholarships. 929. Bishop of London.'] Tenable for how long r For five years. 930. Duke of JlJarlboruuc/h.] In fact, there would be 20 boys educated where there are now 70. Yes. ^31. Bishop 0/ London.] There would be four scholarships every year ? Yes. 932. Duke of iMdrlborough.] At present a very considerable part of the charge for the education of the foundationers is borne by the parents, because they reside in Rugby, and board and maintain their children in their own homes ? Yes. « 933. Whereas, in the instance of exhibitions, as proposed by you, the exiiibitioners would live and board in the scliool : They might, or might not. 934. What would the increased charge, then, consist in ; you propose that where 70 are now educated for 1,200/. a year, at an average of about 17 guineas a piece, 20 should l)e educated ; what would the increased charge for those 20 consist in ? The increased charge woidd be for the boarding ; but it does not follow that all of them would l)e l)oarders; a good many of them no doubt would; but it would be just as it is now in that respect; at present there are founda- .ioncrs in the boarding-houses ; there are always some. 935. They SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 151 935. They are paid for by their parents ? The Rev. The school expenses are not paid by the parents ; only the board expenses P- '^'emp^e, d.d. are paid hy the parents ; tlu;y are the sons of jientry who live in the neighbour- hood. Of course the guineas that a nuiu saves in that way are so much in his 'D''^ ^^y 1865. pocket. 936. You would give an additional advantage to those who are successful in the examination, by giving them their Ijoard free, whereas they do not get their board free in the present instauee- Something towards that. I should give them very much more, certainly. I think it is quite worth wliile to exchange four, and I should say a good many more than four, of the present foundationers, for sueh foundationeis as you could get by open competition. 937. ChainnanJ] You contemplate in your proposition that in this separate scliool, or lower school, the education should be given free ? 1 contemplate that it .should be free to a certain number; not to an unlimited number. 938. That the trustees should expend .500 /. or GOO /. a year upon it? Yes. 939. You propose that the boys should be transferred from that lower school to the upper school by means of competitive examinations r Yes. 9^0. So that, in fact, they would get their preparation in this lower school free, and would then be in a fit state to compete at those competitive examina- tions ? Yes. 941 . And you think that even those who were not successful in the examina- tions would get a sufficiently good education in the lower school to fit them for many if not ail the duties of life ? I have no doubt at all that most of them would get a better education than they get now. 942. Do you see any objection to placing the separate school in such a rela- tion to the great school, as that it should be one and the same school and letting the boys rise up from the lower school into the upper school by means of this competitive examination ? It is impossible to say precisely what their being the same school means. If it means that the boys are to be in the close, in the building, and in the chapel, and to form part of the school, in that sense I do not think the two schools could be worked together. 943. Lord Li/ttelloH.] In the playground ? I said in the close, which is our name for the playground. 944. Duke of Marlboroiiffh.] Is that in consequence of the objection you have to little boys mingling with great boys ? The two systems of teaching would be so independent of one another, that they would be quite distinct things. 945. Why should there be more difficulty in carrying out that system than exists at Eton in regard to the lower and upper school? At Eton the lower school is merely a preparation for the upper school, and no more, whereas this system that I proposed would aim at a diiferent end, for it would teach no Greek at all ; it would only be a preparation for the great school as regards the lower part of it. 946. As far as the preparation in it went, it would be a preparation for an examination, which if successfully passed through would lead into the upper school ? That would be true only of the lower part of that school ; I did not con- template making the top of it such that a boy should be fitted to go from it into the great school ; but quite the beginning of the lower school would enable a boy to go into the upper school. 947. Y'ou mean to say that a boy might compete for admission to the upper school, before he arrived at the top of the lower school ? Yes. (90.) T 4 948. Earl 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. g^f^ E^rl of Hairowby.] When he was about 13 or 14, in fact ? F. Temple, d.d. ^^^^ igth May 1865. 949. Whereas you would contemplate keeping the boys in the upper classes of that lower school to the ages of 1 6 or 1 7 ? Yes. 950. Until they were fit for the business of life r Yes. 95 1 . Bishop of London.] Would that lower school be a commercial school r Yes. 952. Is it not beyond question that such a school as that is not the best preparation for a classical school ; is it not better to send boys to some other school to prepare for a classical school than to such a school as that r It would not be the best mode of preparing them, by any means. 953. That school would be established, in fact, for the sake of the tradesmen ? Yes, for the sake of that class. 954. As I understand, .300 /. a year would be the cost of that school r Six hundred pounds. 955. That is to be for the sake of the tradesmen at Rugby, and they have declared that they do not want it ; would there, therefore, be any objection in applying that 500 /. a year to some other purpose ? Although they have declared that they do not want it, as far as this endence has gone I do not think you have had any evidence from the tradesmen really at all. I do not think the evidence you have had really represents the wishes of the tradesmen, because I have been told by several of the tradesmen since my Report to the trustees, that they would wish for such a school very much. I have asked, " Why do not you offer yourselves as evidence," and they answered by shrugging their shoulders ; but I cannot venture, of course, to speak of any- thing beyond the limits of my own knowledge. But, as a matter of fact, 1 have been repeatedly told by tradesmen, and especially the tradesmen who are not quite independent capitalists, and able to stand quite aloof from their trade if they choose, that they would be very glad of such a school ; and 1 think that even the evidence before your Lordships must be interpretetl with this under- standing that they would be very glad to have such a school, provided it was not considered to be in exchange for what they have already. They want to have a new school plus the present foundation ; I do not think the funds of the foundation can bear that. 956. Lord Li/ttehon.] I think what occurred to us was that they wished, on account of the general reputation of the school, that the new school, whatever it was, should not be divorced and separated from the present school, but should be a part it : Yes ; but the degree in which it shall be a part of it is, of course, very diffi- cult to determine. 957. Viscount Stratford de Redcliff'e.] According to your plan it is com- ])letely separate, is not it r According to my plan it is completely separate, with the exception of thr exhibitions admitting hoys into the great school. 958. Kiirl of Derby.] The Bill in the Preamble very properly recites that the alterations proposed to be effected are to be such as to promote the greater efficiency of the school, " and to carry into cffi^ct the main objects of the founders thereof." I presume you do not dispute that as regards the foundation the main object of the founder had a local tendency. Yes, I do. I do not think it had a local tendency ; I think that was a secondary object of the foimder. I think that the main object of the founder was education. 9,59. But the main object of the founder was to provide an education, in the first instance, for the inhabitants of Rugby and the neighbourhood, the term " neighbourliootl" having been subsequently interpreted in different ways, so as to SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 153 to make it more extensive, and in the second instance to admit a certain num- tIw. llcv. ber of other boys to come in from a distance and take part in the education F. Temple, d.d. which i)riniarily was intended for the inli;il)itants of Ru^by ? I think that was his means towards th(^ end ; the means wiis to give the '9'''' ^^J ^^^S- education locally, because that was tlic Ijcst means that could be then used to give education generally. 960. Did the founder draw any distinction in the advantages he proposed to give between the clever boys and the dull boys r No. 9^1. Was not it his intention that all the boys who came on to his founda- tion should partake equally of the benefits of the foundation, and that the master should bestow equal care upon all of them ? He does not make any distinction at all. gG-2. I do not quite understand your proposition with regard to your school; you suggest that your new proposed school sliould take the boys at an earlier age, and with less qualifications, and less forward, than the great school takes them, do you not ? Not than the great school is now prepared to do if the boys come to it, but at an earlier age, and with less preparation than I think it wise to send boys to a great school, and at an earlier age, and with less preparation than I should propose then to admit boys to the great school. 9()3. You referred just now, in your statement, to the case of the Liverpool College ; you are aware that that is an institution which consists of three several schools ? I am. 9(54. One a school of a lower description ; something higher than the national schools, but a mere English school ; the second, what may be termed a com- mercial school, and the third a classical school ; and that according to the diH'erent rates of payment, the parents of the boys, according to the objects they have in view for their future settlement in life, are allowed to place them ill one or other of these schools ? Yes. 965. You propose that a boy should be admitted into the commercial school at rather an earlier age than he would come into the great school, and that he may be promoted by competitive examination into the upper school ? Yes. 966. And that is the only way in wiiich a transfer can be made from the one school to the other r That is the only way in which a transfer can be made without payment from the one school to the other. 967. Have not the children of the inhabitants of Rugby at present an equal right to the full free education which is given in any of the schools ? There is but one school, and they all have an equal right. 968. Then why should not the same principle be adopted with regard to the two schools, if the two schools be established at Rugby which are established at Liverpool, namely, that a parent should have the option, at a particular time, of saying in which of the schools he desired that his son should derive the benefit of education, assuming that there is a right to a free education in the two schools ? Because at Liverpool the parents pay, and we are supposing them not to pay, and I do not think the foundation could do both. 9(19. Do you mean that the foundation could not educate the same number of "boys in two separate schools as it can now educate in one r No ; I mean that the funds of the foundation will not support the school by introducing talent into it, if it has to carry all this upon its back. 970. It has now to carry, as you say, the weight of the foundationers whom the population of Rugby can afford to send ? It has ; and I understand the object of the Bill to be in a certain degree to remove that weight. (90.) U 97'- I>o 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 971. Do you consider that object of the Bill to be consistent with the main F. Temple, d.d. object of the founder ? I think it is. igt'i May 1865. 972. You are aware also that in Liverpool there is a provision similar to that which you propose to introduce, namely, that not only the choice of the parents may direct the removal of a boy from one school to the otlier, but that the boy, by his' superior abilities, may obtain the transfer without any increased payment? I am quite aware of ir. 073. Are you aware that there have been lately one or two very remarkable instances in which boys entering the last scliool have gradually obtained pro- motion to the second school, and again to the highest school, and have ultimately gained the highest possible honours at Cambridge ? Yes ; and my scheme would contemplate the same result. 974. Earl of HarrwwbyT^ But they would have to pay in that case ? No ; my scheme would contemplate that such a boy would rise in the same way. 975. I think you stated, that a Rugby boy would have an advantage in such a competition over competitors from any other part of the country: Yes, as regards any exhibitions provided for that lower school ; to enable boys to go to the upper school, it is proposed that they should be confined to the local school ; nobody else would be allowed to compete for them. 076. Earl oi Derbi/.] Supposing a parent having a boy on the foundation in the lower school thinks his boy has shown ability, wliich render it desirable for liim to receive a classical education rather than the commercial education given in that lov\er school, would you propose to deprive him of the option of so changing the school in which his son received the benefit of the foundation? I should certainly ]>ropose to deprive him of the option without payment. I said at the beginning of my evidence, that it appeared to me to be a case in which sacrifices must be made, and this was just the sacrifice that I contem- plated. 977. Chairman^ If a foundationer were placed in your proposed school and showed great ability, and if you thought that he was fit to pass into the great school, and that he was likely to succeed there, you would then desire that he should drop his character of foundationer, and pay for his tuition. Unless he obtained an exhibition. 978. I should like to ask you a question now, to which you will give an answer or not as you feel disposed, with respect to the feeling and opinion of the trustees. The suggestion of this school was first made to them in your Report. The trustees, you may fairly conclude, perfectly well know what the state of the funds of the school is, as to how much they are, and whether they are likely to increase or not, and they have certainly shown, I think, that they have the interests of the school very thoroughly at heart. Are they favourable or not to the adoption of your scheme ? I think that is a question that should be put to the trustees. 979. Earl of Dcrhy.'] You do not say that it is a question you would rather not answer ? Not at all. (j8o. C/iainnan.] With respect to the sons of the tradesmen at Rugby, is it a fact that there are very few in the school? There are, I think, at this moment, 14 sons of tradesmen in the school. ()Si. Has that number increased or diminished lately, or is it stationary ? it has, I think, a little diminished ; there was a large incnasc just about the time when I came. I think it has l)een diminishing since that time. 98J. Should you consider it is likely to diminish? i think it is likely to diminish, on the whole. ' 983. I'or what reason, considering that they are sent there as foundationers. The tradsemen say that they are exceedingly desirous to avail themselves of the foundation, and wish no alteration made in it ? With SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL- [ll. I,.] 155 With a few exceptions I do not tliink tli;it those l)oys are very hapi)y ; because The Rev I think that they do not associate much with the great bulk of the school. F. Temple,'ii.D. Q84. Ts there a social difference made towards them ? "TI if a boy has a very pleasant manner, there is no difference whatever, but '^' ^^ ' ^' otherwise there is certainly a social differi'nce. I can mention one; fact, which to aU those who have been at public schools will speak volumes, that is, that I have noticed that the sixtli form, as a rule, will never fag a tradesman's son. 98.5. Lord Liiltelton.'] You think, generally speaking, that there would be inconvenience in that association of the classes ? I do not object to the association at all, but as a matter of fact I do not think that those boys, with an exception here and there, are very hajjpy. I think also that a great many of them do not get the sort of education that is really good for them. 986. Duke of Marlborough.'] That objection would not be removed in the case of an exhibitioner, if a tradesman's son happened to be fortunate enough to get an exhibition, would it r As a general rule, a clever boy gets on well enough to rise high in the school, and to become a person of some influence, and then the ditticulty disappears. 987. Bishop of London.'] Should you say that the difference between one boy and another hardly exists in the case of a clever boy ? Hardly at all. 988. Lord Lytttlton.] With regard to the intention of founders. I understand you to say that you consider the primary object of the founder of this school in particular was the general promotion of education, and his secondary object the promotion of it in the town of Rugby } Yes. 989. I think you stated that that opinion of yours was founded upon a rather large comparison of a good many of these documents ? Yes. 9t)0, I think no one could collect that opinion from Laurence Sheriff's intent alone, and I do not think you have given us any reasons or particulars as to how you collected that opinion from this induction from other documents ? I can only speak of it as an impression made upon my mind long before I had any reason to take one side or another upon this matter. It is quite 18 years ago since I went to work at the question, and made an analysis of all the reports on the grammar schools, and then 1 began to read a great many of those wills ; and certainly the impression made upon my mind from reading so many of them was, that the founding of these schools very much partook of the character of a national movement, every man doing his best to educate his own bit of the country ; and that, although his primary object was this general education, yet nobody thought of any other way of giving it than by providing a good education just round his own spot. 99 1 . Earl of Derby. ~] Each for his own neighbourhood ? Each for his own neighbourhood, and 1 believe that that was the best way of doing it. 9i)2. Lord Lyttelton^ It is a very definite point. Do you think that this intent of Laurence Sheriff, which we have before u-;, is a fair specimen of the other documents, and do you mean that you collect that opinion generally from reading- that document ? 1 have not got it from any onedocument certainly, but my impression is derived from the great varieties of them that I have seen, and in all of them the founder is constantly harping on the education as his primary object. 993. \A hat varieties do you mean ? I mean the great variety of forms in which these wills are worded, all of them continually harping upon this purpose of general education ; some of them speaking of the great advantage it is to train up godly ministers for Christ's Church. That is a very common phrase, which obviously would not have any local connection at all ; but, at the same time, in these very cases you (90.) u 2 ' find 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. find that there is a local privilege given, and no doubt it was given because it F. Temple, d.d. ^-^^g tjjg \j^^^ means of vrorking out the general end. iQtl) May 1865. 994- Earl of Harrowhy.'] I suppose you profess that you do not neglect the local preference of the founder in your scheme ? Certainly I do not. 995. But that you only carry out Ids objects in a wiser way, and a way more adapted to the present time ? t.'ertaiuly ; 1 do not at all wish to overthrow the local preferences of the founder. On the contrary, it must be remembered that the Public School Commissioners recommended the entire abolition of all the privileges of the locality. It was their proposal that there should be no respect paid to them at all. 996. In regard to exhibitions for the lower school, I think you stated that you proposed that certain exhibitions should be open only to boys from that new lower school } Yes. 997. How many would there be of such exhibitions ? I propose that there should be one open every year, 998. That there should be one open every year for the lower school ex- clusively ? For the lower school exclusively. 999. That that exhibition should always be open for the best boy of the year ? Yes. 1000. Would there be a positive test, so that if there was no boy clever enough to pass it, or no boy willing enough to go into the upper school, that exhibition would be thrown open ? I have not entered so much into detail as that. 1001. Possibly there might be no boys going from the lower school to the upjjer ; what would you do with the exhibition then ? In that case I should let it lapse. I should not fill it up at all. 1002. But you would always require that the competition for such exhibi- tions should be only among boys in that school. Yes. 1003. If there were no boy who c;ime up to your standard test for admission into the existing school, you would let that exhibition drop ? Yes. 1004. Earl of Derby.'] I need hardly ask you whether you have read this Bill? Yes ; several times. 1005. Are you in favour of retaining or rejecting clause 21 of the Bill; I gathered from your answer just now, that you did not propose to abolish the local privileges, but that you did propose to apply them in a manner which was more beneficial to those for whom you thought they were designed r I should propose to keep clause 21, because I believe that clause 22 would enable everything to be done that is wanted. 1 006. You would propose, therefore, to pull down first in order to build up afterwards ? Yes. 1007. Viscount Evcrdci/.] For how many years do you propose that these exhibitions should be held ? As long as the boy was in the school. ioo8. Duke of Marlhorough.'] I did not quite gather what you consider to be the practical dilTiculties in the way of making these two lower forms, which have been abolished in consequence of their being no pupils for them, adapted to the requirements of the tradesmen, where, in fact, you might be furnishing them with SELECT COMMITTEE ON Till!; PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.J 157 with a means of education very similar to what you propose to give in a sepa- The Ret. rate school altogether ? F. Temple, d.d. I do not know what would be gained by having them in the school, except that they would be seriously in our way. 19th May 18G5. loog. In what way ; would there not be room for the boys in the chapel .' We have not room as it is ; but, besides that, such a school as that ought to be worked upon a diffc-rent system in many res))ects from tlie present school, and tliey would practically gain nothing whatever that I can see. 10 1(1. Lord Houghton.'] Would you state what are the studies which you con- template being followed in this lower school, which are of a nature either so contradictory to or so irreconcileabie with the studies of a classical school that they could not be combined with them ? I do not think that tbey would be at all contradictory or irreconcilable, but I think they would be such as to require so different a system that there would be absolutely nothing gained by bringing the boys into the same building, and that they would Ije seriously in our way. And I think, moreover, that the chances are that the success of this lower school, as a school for the tradesmen, will depend upon its going on in a different track, and that it will altogether fail if we attempt simply to make it the beginning of the lower end of the great school. ion. Duke of MaiiOoroiig/i.] Do you not consider that it has been in con- sequence of the studies which have been ibllowcd in this school not having been adapted for the sons of the tradesmen of Rugby, that the tradesmen of iiugby have not sent their sons to it ? I do not tliink ihat that is the only reason ; I think that what has kept them away is much rather the consideration that, supposing we were to give them the beginning of a commercial education, there is nothing to go on to ; it must be cut short alter a veiy little while. 1012. Would not that carry out very much the founder's intentions in regard to benefiting the children of Rus;by. If those children did receive a commer- " 111 cial education up to a certain point in these lower forms, even though they might not go any further than that part of the school which he founded, stdl they would be receiving instruction, to a certain extent, suiting their require- ments in that school, ami those who would go further might receive that educa- tion which was necessary to take them up into the higher stages ; would not that be the effect of it '( I think not ; the effect would be that you would attract a number of boys into those forms, and keep them there a very short time, and you would find it very difficult to deal with them, because they would have to be dealt with in a different way from the other boys in the school, and after all you would not be able to complete an education of this kind. 1013. The subjects you propose to teach them in the separate school are all subjects which are taught in the great school, are they not? The question arises, what is to become of the boys at the time when classics ought to take quite the prominence. 1014. Could not the master or the parents remove a boy when he arrived at that point, and would he not make room for another foundationer who might take his place ? Tlie whole education given in that way would be so general, because as a general rule, it would stop when a boy was 1 1 years old, that the boy would be no better, as far as I can see, than if he had gone to the national school. 1 1 .5. To what Hge do you consider that the boys would remain in the separate school r Up to 17. 1016. Lord Houghton.] Will you state to the Committee what is the form of education you contemplate in tlie higher classes of this school which would be so irreconcilable with the classical school that you could not have a portion'of that school devoted to that purpose ? The education in the higher classes would comprise no Greek. 1017. What would it comprise r It would comprise Latin, French, and mathematics ; but it would comprise no (90.) u 3 Greek, 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. Greek, and it would only carry Latin and French on to such a point that, when a . lemple, d.d. i^^y came into the upper school he would find himself completely out of gear with the upper school. Knowing no Greek he would have to come in at the bottom, 19th May 1865. though his other work meanwhile would put, him higher up. 1 o i 8. What would be the difficulty of a boy who was going through that course being exempted from the Greek portion of the business of the day, and doing the higher I'reiich and higher mathematics in a separate class ? 1 shoulJ not like to work the school upon that plan. 1019. Is not that the principle of bifurcation ? Yes ; and I think it is a very bad princi|)le. 1020. You stated, in your evidence before the Commission, that you were strongly in favour of that plan, did you not ? No ; I stated that I was strongly against it. 1021. Chairman.'] You contemplate, supposing this school was established, that it should he under your own immediate superintendence? Yes, certainly. 1022. It woidd have all the benefit of your own supervision ^ Yes, certainly. 1023. Duke of Marlborough.} Do you contemplate the trustees building it r Yes. 1024. At what expense? I should not like to pledge implicitly to the exact sum, but I put down an estimate of what I thought was about what was needed. I contemplated that the building would cost about, 3,000 I. 1025. Earl of Z)c?%.] For how many boys; you calculated of course for a certain number of boys i Yes ; I calculated that you should start with at least 100 boys ; it would take a good many more than that ; a building costing 3,000 /. might be made to contain many more boys than that. 102(1. It would consist of nothing but class I'ooms and school rooms, I presume ? It would consist of nothing but class rooms and school rooms. 1027. Chairman.'] The masters would be appointed in the same way as they are in the great school ? Yes ; the masters would be appointed as they are in the great school. 1028. By you r Yes, by the head master. 1029. Viscount Strafford dc Redcliffe.'] I think you stated that you should yourself have the new school under your immediate care? Yes. 1030. Would not that be a heavy tax upon your time with respect to the duties you have to perform towards the school at large ? It could not be done without a good deal of labour ; 1 should not certainly propose such a scheme if I did not think it a duty to the town. 1031. Mould not the portion of time you would have to devote to the new school be so much loss to the sc-hool in general ? I think it would be additional labour ; I do not deny that at all. 1032. That woidd be the result of the new school ? Yes, but no scheme can be perfect ; this is the best I could devise. 1033. Dukit of Marlboroufjh.'] The result of your scheme would be that, out of the 5,000 /. a-year belonging to Laurence Sheriff's estate, 500 I. a-year would be ai)])ropriated to the olijecls of his will ? £. ."iOO would be appropriatedto that part of the objects of his will. I 0.54. l^larl of ('arnarvo7i.'] I understand that though you would superintend this lower school, still the two schools are not to be brought into connection with each other in such a way as to bring the bo}'s together socially ? No, SELECT COMMITTEE ON TTIE PURLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. 1..] 159 No, I do not contemplate their being brouglit into connection with each The Rev. other. F. Temple, D.D. 103c,. Tf they were brought into connection with each olhcr to some extent, "5*^ May 18G5. I presume tliat in your opinion there would be such an amount of social (lis- tinetion between the two, that it would tend to defeat any cf the objects of the connection ? I do not think they would come together. lo.^t'. In fact, the difficulty which exists now, and to which you alluded, would exist in a much stronger degree then ? Yes; they only come together now by getting into the same forui, and learning to know eacli other in th;it way. When a tradesman's son is high up in the school, he does associate freely with all other boys, whether gentleman's sons or not. 1037. Bisliop of London.] It is entirely in the interests of the tradespeo})le of Rugby that you wish to establish this lower school ? Entirely. 1038. As far as the interests of the great school are concerned, you would rather not have it ? Yes ; I should think it of no advantage to the great school. 1030. If you granted for a moment that the object of Laurence Sheriff was to educate the sons of the bona fide inhabitants of Rugby, you think that it would be better done by this new school than it is at present ? I think so. 1 040. Did you ever calculate what amount of the present 5,000 /. a year goes to the education of those bund fide inhabitants of Rugby, putthig sojourners out of the question ; it is a very small proportion indeed, I suppose ; there are 14 tradesmen's sons, are there not '? There are 14 tradesmen's sons, but then there are a great many tradesmen's sons whom we have had and whom we might have had. '&' 1041. If you had your own way, looking to the interests of the upper school rather than to the interests of the inhabitants of Rugby, you would rather not have this new school ? Yes. 1042. Earl StanhojK'.] Supposing that the present system were to continue without aheration, do you think it probable from the great increase of the buildings in Rugby, that the number of sojourners would increase, and that the number of foundationers would bear a larger proportion than it now does to the total number of the school ? The number of buihlings is not a very accurate test, but if the houses do in- crease, no doubt the sojourners would increase also. I should think it not improbable that, in the course of the next 40 years, the number of sojourners might be doubled. 1043. ^^nd the number of foundationers increased in the same propor- tion ? Of course the number of foundationers might be increased in the same pro- portion. 1044. Chairman.'] The sojourners are now about two-thirds, are they not? They are now about two-thirds. 104.5. Bishop of London.] Two-thirds of what ? Of the whole of the foundationers. 1046. hovd Liitteltim.] You are acquainted, I think, pretty well with King Edward's School at Birmingham ? Pretty well. 1047. And with the town of Birmingham? Pretty well. 1 048. Are you aware that the indiscriminate admission to free education, vyhieh was until very lately tlie case there, had a very perceptible effect in the (90.) u 4 " almost 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tlie Rev. almost total neglect of previous instruction on the part of the parents in that /■'. Temple, d.d. town ? , ~ I am. I know it has damaged the education in Birmina;hara exceedinelv I gill May 1865. '^ b j 1049. Ih^vloi Harrmvhi/.'] The governors leave the head master of Rugby, to a very great extent, to pursue his own course, do they not? Yes, very much indeed. 1050. He has the alisolute choice of the masters ? The absolute choice. 1 05 : . They do not interfere in the direction of the studies .- Not at all. 1052. Have you ever considered whether there are any means by which a greater amount of attention to physical science might be secured at the public school in connection with classical studies ? We have already physical science taught over the greater part of the school ; there is as much as I think it is safe to try. 1053. Duke of 3/«r//;orowif/i.] I wish to put a question to you upon another part ot the Bill ; are you in favour of seeing the alterations in the governing body adopted which are mentioned in the Bill ? No ; 1 like the present governing body exceedingly. I do not want any change at all. io,',4. Chairman.'] Your evidence has been mainly directed liitherto to re- marking upon the evidence we have already received with respect to interests sup[)0sed to be injuriously affected ; are there any observations you would wish to make upon the Bill, because we should be very sorry if this Bill returned to the House without having the advantage of your opinion upon it ; and it might save you the trouble of coming at another time if you were to state your views now ? I should like to say that I think, as far as Rugby is concerned, the proposed addition to the governing body would really do no good to the school, and in- deed would be likely to do it harm. ]05,5. What addition do you particularly allude to ? I think that the proposed four additional trustees would be very likely indeed to give simply, by virtue of the ground on which they were elected, a meaning to clause 1 5, and to section 6 under that clause, -which would be likely to be very detrimental to the school. 1056. Clause 15 is a clause giving to the governors a right, not imposing upon them a duty, to interfere with respect to the subjects of study, and the general discipline and management of the school ? Yes. 1057. That is what you would object to? Yes ; they have that right already. 10,") 8. And, being wise, they do not exercise it r They do not exercise it ; but I think that those gentlemen will be put in a position in which they will feel that they are hardly justiiied before the public, if they do not every now and then inteiferc upon that matter, and that it will be likely very seriously to hamper the head master in the government of the school. lo.'jg. That is to say, you think they would feel it incumbent upon them to dejKirt from the wise system that has (operated beneficially hitherto ? 1 tliink that they will feel that, if the system was wise, it would not have been altered ; and that it must have been altered for some purpose ; and that if they were put there for any purpose, it must have been to look after the par- ticular studies in which they themselves were celebrated men. io(h). I'larl of Divhy.'] You think, probably, that each of those scientific gentlcnu^n would ride his own hobby? I think there would be a temptation to do so. I should myself not be dis- satisfi(;d with the additi(m, if it were recjuired that the additional trustees should in all cases be Members of Parliament. 1 06 1 . Chairman.'\ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] Ifil 1061. Chairman.'] That would socure the exclusion of science, you think ? The Rev. J»^0. " -^^ Temple, d.d, 1062. Duke oi ]\InrJhorough.'] Is it not the case, that at present the branches igth May 1865. of education in the school include all those which any of those gentlemen could, • in fact, devise or suggest or originate afresh r Certainly, that is the case at llugb_v. 1063. Then, in fact, the admission of those gentlemen could confer, in point of education, no additional benefit on the school that it does not now possess r I think not. 1064. Lord Lyttclton.'] Although those studies may be there, could not they give very good advice as to the details and the manner in which the studies should be carried on l That is the very thing I do not want to have. loli'j. Earl of Derl)ij.'\ You would rather not have their advice ? Yes. 1066. Earl of Harrowhy.] Would it be superfluous if you were to state the degree of physical science which is taught, and tlie mode in which it is intro- duced at present ; is it the same as is stated in the Report, or has it been changed ? It is precisely as it was proposed in mv Report to the trustees last year ; not as it stood in the Report of the Public Schools Commissioners. 1067. What is the exact present state of the teaching of physical science in the school at Rugby ? We have an additional master, who gives his whole time to the teaching of physical science ; and, besides that, two of the mathematical masters give lessons in physical science to assist him, and up to the top of the middle school, that is, up to the top of the lower two-thirds of the scliool, every boy learns natural science ; at that point he has the choice whether he will learn natural science or German. 1068. Who is your first teacher? Mr. Hutchinson ; he was lately the master of natural science at Birming- ham. 1069. Does he teach with the assistance of experiments ? We have a very nice laboratory, and a room especially devoted to the teach- ing of that subject. 1 070. What share has physical science in determining a boy's place in the school ? They have marks for their work in physical science, and those marks are added in to the other marks, and a boy gets the advantage of them, just as he does of French or of mathematics. 1071. But the position in the form is determined by his classical knowledge, I suppose ': No ; his position in the form is determined by the aggregate of all the marks. 1072. Then it might be that a boy who had distinguished himself in physical science specially might be a very moderate classical scholar, and might, never- theless, find himself in a very high form r It is sometimes the case, of course ; to a certain extent it is a disadvantage ; it a little disorganises the school, but we cannot teach those secondary subjects in any other way effectively, because the boys value promotion in the school so exceedingly that mere distinction in some one subject would not be enough for them. 1073. You do not find any great inconvenience by a boy being introduced by his knowledge of physical science into the reading of a set of books in classics for which he was not qualified by his classical knowledge : The inconvenience is not sufficient to do us any harm. (90.) X 1074. Practically, 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 1074- Practically, you do not suffer any great detriment to the general l\ Tetnple, v.T). tcaclnng of the school by this attention v.hich is given to physical science : r^ We have not tried the physical science upon this scale for a long time, yet ^^___„!I_!_'^" ^^'6 had it before to some extent ; but it has been established upon the present scale in consequence of the Report of the Commission, and I cannot yet speak of what the effects may be. 1075. You are sanguine as to its not decreasing your school / I have not found any bad effects at present. 1076. Earl of Cr/ra^/;To;/.] It rarely happens, does it, that you find a case such as has been supposed by the noble Lord, namely, that a boy who has a very scanty know ledge indeed of Latin and Greek, and who consequently, in virtue of that Latin and Greek, would have a low position in that school, couples with it a very high knowledge of physical science ? It is very rarely that there is an extreme difference ; the difference is some- times rather considerable, imd of course the result is that his place is chiefly determined by his classical knowledge, and that his other knowledge possibly gives him a little lift up every time the promotion comes round. 1077. In fact it rarely happens that the physical science can or is allowed to turn the balance as against a very great amount of low education in respect of Latin and Greek ? It may make a difference of four or five places in the form. 1 07S. Out of a form itself containing how many r Out of a form containing from 30 to 35. 1079. Earl of Harrozibii.'] How do you define physical science at Rugby ? The natural science that we teach is mechanics, heat, electricity, and chemistry ; and last year we tried also with the lower part of the school to introduce botany ; in fact we did introduce botany. 1080. Chairman.'] That was to a certain extent compulsory upon all boys under a certain limit ? Quite compulsory upon all boys up to a certain point in the school. 1081. Lord Houghton.l So that the elements of science are taught as a regular matter of sehool business ? They are. 1082. Duke of Blarlborovgh.l That system being in existence at Rugby, and being, as I presume it is, adapted for the calibre of the boys, how could the presence of these literary and scientific gentlemen upon the body of trustees improve that system in any way ? 1 cannot tell. 1083. Viscount Everslcy.'] Does not the study of physical science in all public schools very much depend upon the encouragement given to those studies at the Universities ? Ultimately, of course, it will. 1084. If the Universities give honours and rewards for the successful study of physical science, all the public schools will be obliged to follow in that track, will they not ? Yes, a boy who left Rugby a year ago has got a studentship at Christchurch, which he could not have got but for what he learned at the school in physical science. 108,5. E'ii*l of Harrowhy.'] Do you find thnt the introdiiction of physical science has given any stimulus to the intellects of boys who had previously not taken much interest in their studies ? We have not tried it long enough to judge. ioSr>. You do not find whelher it has laid h.old of any class of minds which were sluggish under the merely classical studies ? I have seen one or two such cases, but tiiey are very few. 1087. Lord Wroltesky.^ Are the boys allowed to make experiments in chemistry ? Some SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 163 Some of the advanced pupils make experiments ; they go into the laboratory The Rev. and work there. ^- Temple, n.v. ioS8. Have you any system of examinations to test the proficiency of the igth May 1865. boys in these subjects ? .. They are examined every half-year. 1089. Are they examined by the tutors of the school or by examiners from without ? By tutors of the school. lopo. Do you think it would be an improvement to have them examined by examiners from London ; I presume however it is hardly sufliciently advanced for that as yet ? It is hardly advanced enough to make ft worth while. 1(91. When it is sufiiciently advanced you think it might be ? Yes ; I think possibly it might, but I think that is some way off. lopLJ. Earl Slanlwjye.'] I wish to call your attention to this point: the 15th clause of the Bill gives the governors of each school a certain authority as to the subjects of study, but of course that authority is limited to that particular school; is there not then some cause for apprehension that the subjects of study might come to be very variously constituted in different schools ; and has it ever occurred to you how far there might be an advantage in a central com- mission or other central authority, which without introducing an absolute uniformity, would provide that there should be a certain similarity in the schools ; that there should be no great diversities in the great public schools in England as to the studies which are pursued r I should have thought that the danger ou the side of attempting to make the studies uniform v/as very much greater than the danger upon the side of leaving them to take their own course ; I think the less attempt there is to in- terfere with their free development, and the more variety we have, upon the whole, the better. 1093. You are not impressed with the danger that there might seem to be of a different system of studies being pursued in the public school from the system pursued in another, from the fact of the governing bodies having no necessary connection ? I think that would always be found to be not a danger but an advantage. 1004. Chairmari.'] Have you any further observations to make u]ion the Bill ? There is only one other point which struck me as particularly applying to Rugby. It is in page 4, near the bottom of that page, clause 9, in section 5 of that clause, says, " With power to abolish any such mastership, other than the head mastership." 1095. That power is given to the governing bodies ? Yes. "With respect to the salaries of the masters, so far as they are payable out of the property belonging to or held in trust for the school, with power to abolish any such mastership other than the head mastership." I think the restriction contained in the words " other than the head mastership " a mistake, and I should prefer that it was struck out. IC96. It is payable out of the property, you know, " belonging to or held in trust for the school r" Yes, it refers to the salaries. I think there is no more reason for keeping the salary of the head master than for keeping the salary of any other master. 1097. Earl of Bevon.'] May I ask you whether, assuming for the purposes of argument that no change tnkes place in the governing body, you see anything objectionable, and, if so, will you point it oat in reference to the powers given to the governing body of Rugby School ? The powers, it appears to me, as far as they are here given, aie rather a dimi- nution of the powers which the trustees alread}' possess. 1098. Chairman.'] And an increase of those which the head master pos- sesses ? (90.) X 2 Yes. 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. Yes. In clause 16 it is said, "All other masters shall be appointed by and F. Temple, d.d. hold their offices at the pleasure of the head master." At present at liugby ~~ there is a certain set of masters who are called foundation masters, and the ig th May 186 5. understanding is, that although the head master could suspend any one of them from his office, if he thought fit to do so, he cannot dismiss any one without reference to the trustees. 1099. Lord Lyttelton.'] Is not it much better that he should have the power to do that ? I think not. I think, when men have served a school a long time, they feel a little more dignity if they cannot be dismissed solely at the discretion of the head master. Practically, I do not think it makes the slightest difference. 1 1 00. Earl of Devon.'] The loss of that power would, I suppose, be a benefit to the position of the head master of the school ; would it be, in your judgment, in any respect an injury to the school ? I think that anything which lowers the position of the under masters is, so far, an evil. I do not tliink it is a matter of very great importance, but I think you cannot be too careful in considering the feelings of valuable servants in such an establishment. 1101. Earl of Carnarvon.'] How woidd you define it; which would you leave to the trustees and which to the head master ? I should strike out the words from " hold their offices " to the words "plea- sure of." 1102. You mean that the head master shoiUd have the power to dismiss none of the under masters ? Yes ; at least those whom he may dismiss at present, and no others. 1103. Earl of Devon^^ May the Committee take it, then, as your opinion, that in so far as endeavours are made here to define the jjosition of the head master relatively to the governing body, and to mark the powers of each, you consider that an advantage ? No ; I cannot say that. I think that the undefined position which we have at Rugby is on the whole rather better, because at Rugby the powers of the trustees are very much the same as they are defined here, and I think I would leave it in the same undefined position, if possible. But then I suppose that that may not be the case in other schools, and therefore I should not like to say anything against clause 15 at all. 1104. Duke of Marlborough r\ The trustees have at present the power, have they not, under the directions of the Court of Chancery, to expend their money in the erection of any additional buildings for the school ? I think they have. 1105. So that as far as that power requires extension, clause 26 would be unnecessary? Clause 26 is not an extension really, but a limitation. ] 106. It is rather a limitation by the operation of the Act of Parliament? Yes ; I was going to make a remark upon clause 26. 1107. Biahop of London.] With respect to the relative powers of the governors and the head master, do you think it desirable to say, for example, that the governors are to be responsible for the sort of rules that are made for .attendance at chapel, and with respect to the chapel services ; they may have, and no doubt have, the power of interference with them if they pleased, but at present they would not dream of interfering ; this suggests that it is their duty to do so ? I do not like this clause at all for that reason. I should think it would not be expedient that they should interfere. I loS. Perhaps you think that clause has been put in with reference to some other great i)u])lic school ? I presume so. 1109. Earl of Carnarvon.] It is provided in clause 16, that " no candidate for any mastership shall be entitled to preference by reason of his having been a scholar SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 1G5 a scholar of, or educated at, the school of which he desires to be a master ;" The Rn. is it your opinion that no preference should lie given, cceteris paribus, in the T. Temple, d.d. case of a master that has been educated at the school I I should give absolutely no preference; I think, as a rule, you are safe in »9th May 1865. leaving that to the head master. The head master will give as much weight as is wise to it, and in a matter of that kind the more you throw the whole responsibility upon him the better, so that if anything goes wrong he may not be able to say, " I have a bad under master, in consequence of such-and-such regulations ;" and that the trustees should be able to say, " Why did you appoint him." inc. In fact your object is to make the head master as independent as possible .•' I think upon that point he should be as independent as possible. 1111. And if upon that point, upon all points consistent with it ? Yes. 1112. Duke of Marlboronghl] You stated a short time ago, that you wished to make some remarks upon clause 26 ; would you favour us with them ? The trustees of Rugby are, by the 26th clause, really limited ; they have at present the power, under the authority of the Court of Chancery, of spending money in additions and alterations to the buildings of the school. I am quite sure that we want more buildings at Rugby, and that we want them very much indeed; but we did not succeed in convincing the Public School Coinmissioners that we wanted them ; and this clause ties us down to the recommendations of the Public School Commissioners, and I think we shall be very seriously hampered by it. 1113. Lord Lyttelion.'] 1 think you have a little overstated the case as to the Public School Commissioners ; I do not think that we actually said that no new buildings were at all wanted ? I mean that they have not recommended it, and this clause only allows it to be done when it has been recommended. 1114. T)\ikQ oi Marlborough.^, You think that the trustees of Rugby would be more likely to adopt your suggestion, and act under your advice than the Public School Commissioners have been ? I think that the trustees of Rugby would be in the long run able to see it. The Commissioners only came to the school once, and they could only decide upon the evidence they had there and then ; but if I have to deal with a body like the trustees I can bring evidence before them repeatedly, until I can have some chance of making my wants felt. 1115. You do not find, as a general rule, I think, that the trustees have been indisposed to hear your suggestions, and, in fact, to assist you in carrying out what you think advisable for the school ? The trustees have not always accepted my recommendations immediately, but I must say, take it altogether, that it seems to me it is quite impossible for a body of men to attend to the wants of a great institution with greater care than they do. 1116. Earl of Derby.'] You find practically that constant dropping wears out the trustees. Yes. 1117. Chairman.'] Are they all Members of Parliament ? They are all Members of Parliament ; I only wish the scientific men to be Members of Parliament. 1118. Earl Stanhope.] Does not the law, as it now stands in connection with the existing system, render necessary an appeal to the (^ourt of Chancery ? Yes, certainly. my. Is not it some advantage to dispense with the necessity of appealing to the Court of Chancery ? Yes ; and if the phrase, " in cases where the Commissioners have recom- (90.) X 3 mended 166 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. mended any additions to, or altei'ations in, the buildings of a school," were F. Temple, D.D. struck out, I should like the clause. 19th May 1^65. 1 1 20. Earl of Harrowby.'] Would you rather have the clause than the present power under the control of the Court of Chancerv ? I would very much. The Court of Chancery rather hampers us. 1121. You would rather have Her Majesty in Council ? Yes, I think I would. 1 1 22. Lord Wro(fesIi'i/.l Assuming that all head masters of public schools are not so favourable to the introduction of physical science, and making it an integral part of the studies of their schools, can you suggest any legislative provision by which that result might be brought about in other schools in which the head masters are not so favourable to it as you are r T think it would be much the better plan to wait for the effect of public opinion, until you had got head masters who were favourable. I I 23. Lord Houghton.] What would be the practical evil of a system so far uniform, as that there should be certain points of studv determined upon, but left to be worked according as the masters of each school thougiit best r A great school is a very complicated machine. It is rather like asking a power to put your hands into a piece of clockwork, and decide on the move- ments of particular wheels without reference to the whole. 1 124. Would it not be rather determining that a certain clock should show the right time ? It would ; not the right time always, and it would very often be determining that a certain clock should do something which that particular clock could not be adapted to do without being destroyed. Perhaps it might be convenient to the Committee if I put in the Report which 1 made to the trustees. \_The Report is handed i/i. — (Vide Appendix.)] 1 1 25. Duke of Marlborovfj/i.] When did you make that report ? Last summer. Mr. Cottrell applies for permission to put certain questions to Dr. Temple. The Chairvutn inquires whether the questions are in writing. Mr. Cottrell replies that they are not. The Chairman states, that the Committee having given notice to the Counsel at their last sitting that questions could be only asked of Dr. Temple and JMr. Butler through Peers who were on the Committee, the examination now proposed could not be permitted. The Reverend HENRY MONTAGUE BUTLER, is called in ; and Examined, as follows : '^heRev ^ ' 2b. Chairman^ I believe you are the Head Master of Harrow School ? H. M. Buder. YeS. 11 27. How long have you been so ? For five and a half years. 1128. Have you seen the evidence which has been given with respect to Harrow ? Yes, I have. 1 129. That evidence was restricted by tlie decision of the Committee to the interests that were, or were supposed to be, injuriously affected r I have read it. 1130. You wish to be heard, I beheve, as a witness on that subject, more especiallv with regard to the foundationers ? Yes. 1131. I do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 1G7 1131. I do not know whstlicr you would wish to make any statement of your Tin- Rev. own U])on that evidence that we have received, or whether you would wish to -?^- ^J- Butler. be examined upon it ; perhaps you would prefer to make a statement of your own ? 19th May 1SC5. I think all your Lordships are aware of the character of the foundation at Harrow, how tiiat there are really very limited funds at the disposal of the governors; those lunds, in the year 1860, were about 1,000 /., and out of that sum I find that about 700 /. was available for the purposes of education. It is therefore plain that the benefits of the foundation can be but limited, and the question is how the benefit within those limits can best be turned to practical account in the parish of Harrow ? 1 132. Earl of Derby. '\ \o\\ said that the total endowments were 1,0G0 I. ? Yes, about 1 ,000 I. 1 133. You state that 700/, of that is applicable to the purposes of educa- tion ? Yes. 1 1 34. To what is the other 3G0 /. applicable ? I can tell you by these papers in the Appendix. By the will of John Lyon certain sums are bound to be diverted to the purposes of charity in the parish, and they are also expended on the various national schools in the parish which I did not include when 1 spoke of the purposes of education ; I was then think- ing of the purposes of education in connection with the great public school. 1135. LTpon what authority is that application made to the National schools ? Simply upon the authority of the governors ; I do not know upon what principle they have acted. 1136. To what extent has that application been made? One hundred and one pounds are given to the schools; 59 /. are bestowed in almsgiving to the poor. 1 137. Chairman.'] That is by John Lyon's will? Yes, by the express requirements of John Lyon's will ; and 25 /. are given to the vicar of Harrow. 1138. The assistance 10 the national schools has been given for many years, has it not 1 So far as I am aware, it has been given for many years, except, indeed, that national education has not been systematised for more than about 30 years. Then, again, I find that out of the 1,063/. the sum of 1/2/. was expended upon various items, which I might group under the name of law expenses and management of the estate. I reckon, therefore, that altogether there is about 700 /. which is available for the purposes of education, in connection either with the great public school, taken as it now stands, or with any other school, either connected or unconnected witli it, which might be created for the especial benefit of the farmers and tradesmen of Harrow. 1 139. Part of that expense, which you say is devoted to the management of the estate, is devoted to the management of the estate also, from which we get no profit ; it is for the management of the estate, the proceed? of which ai'e paid over to the turnpike trust f Yes ; I may say that my earnest desire has been that this question of the foundation should so be settled as to confer a real and permanent boon upon the tradesmen and farmers of Harrow. I have felt that, not as I believe through any blame to be attributed to any single person, least of all to the governors, through the force of circumstances, extending now over three centuries, as the tradesmen and farmers of Harrow seem now to have found out, we cannot give their sons, in this classical school, the particular training which they need. The circumstances generally of the tradesmen, as regards their sons' education, are peculiar as compared with those of other boys ; they, as a rule, take away their children from education almost at the time when the parents of our boys send their sons to Harrow. As a fact, we have very few boys indeed under 13 ; and I should not exaggerate if I said, that we have very few comparatively under 14. (90.) X 4 1140- You 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 1 140- You are s))eakmg of the tradesmen and farmers' sons? H. M. Butler. No ; I am speaking now of the boys who enter the great pubhc school. iQthM 8fi ^^ ^^^ ^^^y lo^^^*' of those forms we either teach Greek or Latin verses, or we ^^ ' ^' begin to teach them, and so earnestly am I convinced that you cannot thoroughly do justice to the system of a public school, unless the boys who come to it have been prepared for it in the elements of every one of those subjects, that we have very recently made a rule which will in future, beginning after a certain date in order to avoid hardship, subject all boys to pass an entrance examination on coming into the great school, showing that they have made some progress in Latin, and that they have some knowledge, however slight, of Latin verses, and of the elements of Greek. 1141. Earl Stanhope.} When you say Latin verses, you mean Latin compo- sition, do you not ? Yes ; it includes Latin verse composition and the elements of Greek. I may say that, in making that rule, I have been very much influenced both by the Reports of the Commissioners and by the bearing of the evidence that was given before them, proving, as I think, that the weak point in the public schools is, that a great many boys come there who are not qualified to profit by the classical system of education, either from want of any special ability or industry, and failing to profit by the classical training, they lower the general standard of the school. I mention this because it bears upon the question of what is called at Harrow, the English form, which it has been suggested to call the lower school, which has been instituted for the inhabitants of Harrow, and especially for the farmers and tradesmen. The boys coming to the upper school come at the age of 13 or 14. I hold a very strong opinion that it is not desirable for them, except in rare instances, where they are boys of much above the ordinary calibre, to come earlier. And, on the other hand, the sons of farmers and tradesmen are, I do not say by a wise opinion on the part of their parents, but by a practical opinion which has long worked, compelled to put an end to their education at that age, if not earlier. Therefore, we have practically two very different elements to deal with, and it is not a question whether we think it desirable that the boys of the lower school should join in the upper on account of any feeling of pride, as if we iancied that the sons of farmers or tradesmen could injure that school, but because experience proves to us that two classes of boys, with such different pursuits and aims, could not well mix together. That is what has made me wish that the question should be settled in such a way as to give a permanently valuable education in connection with the foundation of John Lyon, which I know they prize, to the inhabitants of Harrow ; I inear, to the farmers and tradesmen of Harrow. Your Lordships are aware that the question has been raised whether it is possible so to carr)'- out this scheme, as that there should be a vital coTniection between the English form, or the lower school, on the one hand, and the great school on the other. I have been exceedingly anxious that there should be no mistake with regard to this lower school. It is very easy to say that there is a connection between it and the upper school ; there is at present this connection between the English form and the upper school. 1142. Chairman.'] When you speak of the upper school you mean the great school ? Yes ; the connection is that the English form depends for its very existence upon tlic head master of the great school. I conceive there is no legal or even moral obligation which compels the head master to keep that school up another day ; it might be destroyed at once without any real wrong being done either of a legal or a moral kind. But the element of connection between the English form and the great school is this, that it is distiru'tly founded and supported by the head master ; that whatever masters teach in it are api)ointed by him ; that the school is examined periodically either by him or by gentlemen, generally his colleagues, who kindly undertake it at his request ; that the prizes are awarded by him himself; that to the boys of this school precisely the same prizes aie given as to the younger boys in the upper school ; and, finally, it has always been felt, that if any boy was to be reported to the head master of the great school as showing any remarkable classical ability, it would be a matter of intense satisfaction to the head master to place him at once in the upper school iq)ou the foundation. Those are the elements of connection which SELECT COMMITTEE OX THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS GILL. [h. L ] 169 ^^hich exist between the two schools. On ihe other hand, your Lordships arc t/ic Rev. probabh' aware that there are great differences also between those two schools. 11. M. Duller. Tlie hoys of the two schools do not know one another; they do not play together, they do not have the same bathing place, they do not go to the same '9th May iSfis- chapel: the boys of the lower school have no ])rivate tutors, and they do not ~ move up from form to form. So that, if I am askerl in candour whether it really is in substance, not technically but socially, one school, I say at once that it is not ; and I could not wish to purchase the support of any single parishioner at Harrow, however nuich I might value his opinion, Ijy pretending that this school was really one with the great school, when socially and in respect of ordinary daily subjects it is not. 1143- Eai'l of Derby.'] What do you mean by saying that there is no moving from form to form ? It is this ; that the English form gives no teaching whatever either in Greek or Latin verses, and, as a matter of fact, though the very first rule that was laid down by Dr. Vaughan, my jiredeccssor, in establishing this English form was, that every boy should learn Latin, yet, as a matter of fact, the boys •who come to me to be entered for this I'higlish form are generally so grossly ignorant even of the elements of writing and spelling, that unless they remain in the form a longer time than most parents will leave them, it is very difficult to put them into elementary Latin, much less to give them instruction in Latin verses or the elements of Gr^'ek, the preparation which alone would enable them to profit by the upper school. 1144. Is not your test for admission to tlie upper school higher than that at most other schools, inasmuch as you not only require some proficiency in Latin, but also some knowledge of Greek ; and does not that cause there to be a great gap between the top of the lower school and the bottom of the upper school, Avhich there is no means of filling up ? That is probably true ; I should say that this rule has very recently been made ; it was considered by me carefully years ago, but that rule has only been instituted within a very few days; but J am prepared to justify it on its own merits, and to express my decided opinion, though with great submission, that a public school is by no means the best place for training boys in the first elements of Latin and Greek ; I am certain that the very large amount of idleness and consequent ignorance that prevail in public schools is due, in fapt, to the boys coming there miserably grounded, and that it is not a good i^lace for grounding them. 1145. Chairman.'] Your test examination is applied in general to bovs of about 13, is it not t Yes, quite so. 1146. From 13 to 14 ? Yes. 1 147. You stated that you did not know to what extent you reqvured Greek of them, but I suppose there is not anything very severe in Greek ■ It would be the elements of Greek, certainly ; we should be satisfied v.ith a minimum, no doubt ; I do not hesitate to say that. 1 148. In the rule which has been recently adopted, what is the minimum of Greek that is required ? That is not really j:)rescribed at present ; )'our Lordship wiii understand that the rule has not yet come into existence ; as a matter of fact, it will not come into operation, in order to avoid hardship, until the beginning of next year ; but to any parents who may apply to us henceforward a printed form will be sent, that they may know the conditions under which alone their sons can be accepted. 1149. For admission to the school? Yes.. 1 1 50. Earl of Dcj'hf/.] If I understand you rightly, there is no pos.sibility of a boy receiving that education in the lower school which would enable him to pass from the lower school to the upper? If we received from tiie master of the English form (I am taking an iaia- (90.) Y "' ginary 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE TtiC Uev. ginary case) a report that there was a boy of distinguished classical ability, as H. M. Butler. shown in preparing liis Latin, I should take care that he was prepared before- ]qih M»~~ 86 hand to enter the great school, and he might have an opportunity of entering " ' it ; but, as I have already said, 1 think those cases would be very rare ; a boy might show great abilities, and make very early, in his education, quick progress in Latin. 1 151. That is next door to impossible, is it not? Yes. 1 152. Earl of HarroH-bj/.'] You do not mean to establish a positive chasm, I presume, between the two schools, which no person could bridge over? No, not a positive chasm which could not be bridged over, if we were satisfied that a boy had great abilities. 1153. But no Greek is taught in the lower school, and some Greek is required for entrance into the upper school. How then is that chasm to be bridged over? It would be bridged over in many ways ; either by requesting the mfister of the English form to give the boy some special instruction, which he would certainly be willing to do with a promising pupil, or by sending him to another school. 1154. Anything which improved the general education of the middle classes, would make your English form a better school, and make it more likely that a boy would be able to pass over the breach between the upper school and the lower, would it not ? Yes, rather more likely; but I do not think there would be many cases of that kind ; I think we should throw our greatest force into what are called modern subjects in that school. We should teach Latin, pi'obably not to an extent to overshadow the other subjects, as we admit we do in the great public school, but we should throw our great force into arithmetic, English history, and com- position, geograph}', and so on ; those would be, I should say, the staple subjects of instruction in the lower school. 1 155. Bishop of London.] To what age do you propose that the bo3'S should remain in that lower school ; till they begin Greek ? Yes, till they begin Greek. I had not thought of any age which should be a limit, and exclude them. 1 1.'")6. They would stay till they were 15 or 16 ? I should imagine very few boys would desire to remain as long as 15. 1 1 57. Chairman.'] Will you have tiie goodness to continue your statement with reference to the injuries alleged to be inflicted upon the foundationers ; they protest against this school of yours, if it is to be considered as a substitute for the advantages they have ? I may say, first of all, that I cannot admit that the English form has proved an entire failure, but I know many persons who tell me candidly they think it has proved a failure ; I do not myself speak of it as a brilliant success by any means, but I do think it is an impei-fect success. It was established under cir- cumstances which could not possibly enable it to be a triumphant success. As your Lordships are aware, there was a difficulty in providing buildings for it, and the head master expended a large sum of monej' upon providing the adequate buildings, the playgrounds, and so forth ; and tlierefore the English form, liaving been imperfectly lodged, has always existed under a great disadvantage. And, besides that, there has been evidence that it has been regarded as an im- perfect substitute for the privileges of the foundation by a large part of the parish, including some of the influential gentry, and some of the principal trades- men ; I think that has tended to impair its usefulness, but the scIiodI has now been in existence for 12 or 13 years, with almost undiminished nund^crs. My belief is, that there were at the outside 24 at any time, and now there are 17, and very recently 1 have; admitted several new boys ; I admitted some last year, and I have admitted some again this year, showing that however some persons may feel dissatisfied with it, and 1 am not surjjrised that they should, for it is only in (rajis/fn, still many i)eople believe that it answers their purposes better than any other system of education Harrow can offer them. 1158. This SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UULIC SCHOOLS BILL. [n. L.] l/l it r. 1 1 58. 'I his English fonri is uudtT yom* own superintendence, is it not? The Rt Yes; under my general superintendence. As a niatter of tact, I leave H.M. Butter. the particular superintendence to the master. He has the entire resijonsi- bility. igtli ^^^y i^^^S- ! 150. He is appointed by yourself? Yes ; he is appointed b}' myself. 1 160. Earl of Derby.] Would it not l)e more satisfactory to the inhabitants of Harrow, and would there be any inconvenie:ice as regards the general objects of the school, if the top of the lower school reached a point which would allow of admission from it to the upper school ? I believe in point of classical ability, I am speaking now of intellectual attainment, jou would have to degrade the lower form of the upper school too far ; that is the objection to it. Moreover, the lower school is by no means the best training, I think, that could be given, if your object is to promote a boy into the upper school. One of the great results of the Report of the Public School Commission will be, I hope, to put a great pressure upon the preparatory schools for the public schools. There are a great many that are good, and others that are very bad ; but the successful ones give distinct preparation, not only in the elements of Latin, but in some more advanced Latin books, in Latin verses, in which they reach a very considerable pitch, and also in Greek, in which again they reach a very considerable pitch. These would be the schools to \^ hich you would send a boy, if your object was to qualify him well for a great public school. 1161. These preparatory schools are schools where a boy pays the full value of his education ? Yes. 1 162. But the inhabitants of Harrow, being entitled to a free education, can onlv pass over the gap between the two schools, by paying for an education somewhere else ; you deprive them of that which it was the intention of the founder to give them ? The object of the founder, I believe, (though it is very difficult to determine) was, on the one hand, to meet the wants of poor persons, and, on the other hand, to give an education almost exclusively classical, and it has been found, 300 years after the date of the founder's will, that just those per- sons whom he seems to have contemplated most do not care for tliis par- ticular kind of training. We have no evidence before vxs, I tliink, indeed: that there is much evidence to the contrary, that the tradesmen and farmers of Harrow wish to have the kind of training we give, even in the lowest form of the public school ; I believe that they do not, and I am bound to say, that 1 think they show their wisdom in coming to that conclusion ; they miglit, no doubt, value the name of the school, and 1 honour them for that, but they do not value the particular education which we give in the lowest form of the public school, because even there we begin with Latin A'erses and Greek, and therefore modern subjects must necessarily suffer. 1163. The question is whether you do not pitch your admission to the public school too high in requiring some knowledge of Greek ? The only argument for considering that we do pitch it too high would be- the consideration of the cases of these very few tradesmen and farmers wlio might desire to send their sons to the upper school ; but, taking into account the great mass of the upper school, it is a great advantage to them that those who come into that school should have been well trained before they enter it, and should not be very young. It is partly a question of age. If it weie thought desirable that boys should become members of a great public school of 500 boys at the ages of 9, 10, or 11, it might be a question whether we should not have forms much below the lowest we have at [jresent, where we might teach no Greek, no verses, and perhaps only a little Latin. But I do feel that on moral grounds, and intellectual grounds also, It is very undesirable to have very young boys, and that what has been the rule, namely 12, may be regarded as the minimum at which it is desirable to send boys into a pubhc school; in most cases it should l)e 13, except in the case of home boarders, who might come a little earlier. (90.) Y 2 ] 164. Earl 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 1 164. Earl of Flarrowbj/.] Vou would not like to take a boy totally ignorant H- M. Butler. of Greek at 12 or 13, would you ? ■ I think it would be far better that he should wait a year or two before jgth May 1865. coming, and then come with some kno.vledge of Greek. 1165. Earl of Dcrbij.'] I find, by a table laid before the Commissioners, giving the average age of all the bo3s, foundationers and non-foundationeis, in each school, that the ages at Harrow are considerably higher than those in any other school ? It is quite possible. I apprehend it is the average that is taken there. 1 i6u. The average minimum age of the foundationers at Harrow is 14 years and 10 months, and of the non-foundationers 13 years and 11 months, whereas at the other public schools the ages are 10 years and 4 months, 10 years and 6 months, 1 1 years and 8 months, and so forth ; therefore, the average age at Harrow is considerably above that of any other school? I can only say that 1 think it is an advantage that it should be so. I do not believe that the public school system, which I honour with all my heart, is adapted for very young boys. I think if a boy has been well trained in classics, that 12 i years, or from that to 13, is a good time for hiin to come. If he has been badly trained he had better wait till he is 14 or 14 j. I am sorry to say the best advice one could give as to the greater part of those who come, would be that they should wait longer. 1167. Bishop of Lo)idon.~\ Are the Committee right in understanding that you would refuse a foundationer at present if he did not understand Greek ? I have never acted upon that rule yet. 1168. Is it your intention to act upon that rule, and to exclude a founda- tioner who does not know any Greek ? Yes, we should. Of course there is a discretionary power left with the head n aster, but I conceive I ought not to waive that requirement in the case of one more than the other. I think that every boy who has proved a clever boy in the lower school, comes with a very good grace and holds out every prospect of improvement on his admission to the upper school. iibg. Chairman.'] Your test examination applies to the foundationers and non-foundationers, does it not. . Yes, it applies to all. 1170. I do not think you would in reality contemplate bridging over that chasm ? I have said always that I think the cases would be extremely rare of a boy going up from the lower school into the upper. 1 do not believe that the farmers and tradesmen would care to have the chasm bridged over. With regard to the instruction to be given, I believe that the only thing that would meet their view would be, by giving a much more elementary training- in the public school itself, teaching no Greek and no Latin verses in some of the forms. 1171. By descending lower, in fact. Yes, by descending lower in the public school. I am convinced that for the sons of the gentry who can afford to pay for their sons going to a preparatory school, that would be a distinct disadvantage, and in fact we should not have ;iny but the sons of farmers and tradesmen in the lower forms. You might call them members of our great school, but they would remain distinct and a class apart. 1172. The Committee have had evidence from persons representing the tradesmen or farmer class that they do value the; education that is to be obtained at the great school, and that that is die education that suits them for their sons who arc going afterwards into business, and that they do not wisli to hit deprived of those ad^■antilges for the sake of any alteration or improvement oi the English form, c)r tor such a plan as you ])ropose. I am quite certain that you have comnumicated with all the parishioners of Harrow. Should you, from the conununications you have had with them, say that that was the general feeling ? My 'I'. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h.L.] 173 My belief is that it is not ; I am quite [irepared to find that I am mistaken. 7.7,^ ricv. Of com'se tliei'e arc differences of opinion upon tlic puiiit, but J know that S- ^t- Butlc. several of the moi'e influential tradesmen have written to me expressing their ■ entire concurrence in the scheme 1 ventured to propose upon this very delicate 19th May 1865. subject, and stating their belief that it would meet their wants. On the other hand I have read the evidence, and I know from it, and from other quarters also, that others take a very different view ; but I never found any one; who told me that he thought that our classical education gives the very education he wants for his son. And what is better than words is the experience of 20 years, in which not a single tradesman has sent his son to Harrow. 1 1 73. Is the experience of 20 years, that there has not been a single trades- man's son at the public school at Harrow r I believe the time is as nearly as possible 20 years within which no tradesman has sent his son to the public school at Harrow. 1174. Although, as a foundationer, he might have had all the advantages which the tradesmen are so desirous not to lose ? Yes. 1175. Notwithstanding that, they have never availed themselves of the privilege ? They have not. 1 1 76. Lord Lyttelton.'] Are you acquainted with the plan proposed by Dr. Temple for Rugby ? It is some months since I read it, but I think I know it generally. 1177. It is substantially the same as that which you propose for Harrow, is it not. Yes, it is very much similar. It is proposing to create at Rugby a school similar, in a great degree, although not altogether, to the school which has existed for many years at Harrow, but I consider that the difference in the appointments and in the buildings to be erected for its convenience make a very vast difference. I think if we had had 22 years' experience of an English form, built and appointed as I propose, we should have heard no more of the tradesmen and farmers wishing to send their sons to the upper school. I wish distinctly that this lower school should be regarded as being on the foundation of John Lyon. I also do not propose to take away the privileges of the founda- tion, but only to give them in a curtailed and modified form to the sons of the gentry, and then there will be the choice offered to the farmers and tradesmen of Harrow to avail themselves of the curtailed foundation in the upper school, instead of taking, what I know they will take, the lower school. What I propose is this, that the governors, with their very limited income, should regard the English form as the first charge upon their estate. That the educational interests of the farmers and tradesmen should be secured against all danger. Then, if there was a surplus, that of course entirely depends upon the amount of funds at the disposal of the governors ; that surplus, either in whole or in part, should be devoted to a new form of foundation for the upper school ; not that, as here- tofore, a gentleman, by coming to Harrow, should be able to claim the privilege of sending his son to the school upon the payment of 17 /. \7 s. a. year, but that the surplus at the disposal of the governors should be divided in scholarships of 30 I. a year ; perhaps 20/. or 25/. a year might be better, and that these scholar- ships should be competed for, not only by the world at large, as it was represented by the counsel to be the proposal, but by the inhabitants of Harrow of two years' standing, so that the competition Avould be a veiy limited competition ; enough to serve as a sort of local stimulus, but not enough to expose parents who might be possibly in somewhat indigent circumstances to the risk of competing with the best preparatory schools in England. 1178. Earl of Derby.'] You jjropose to define the word, inhabitants, as mean- ing persons who have been residing two years in Harrow.'' Yes. 1179. 'EiAvl Stanhope.'] Is there any limit now as to the term of residence that is necessary to entitle persons to the privileges of the foundation. No. (90.) Y 3 1180. They 1/4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 11 8c. 'i hey might have been residing onl)- .1 week r H. M. Butler. Yes, or even only an hour. 19th May 1865. 1181. Bishop of London.'] Are the foundationers not limited r ^— The Hn^it is left to the governors ; they aie empowered by John Lyon's will to admit only a meet and competent number, and I understand that, something like two centin'ies ago, there was a minute passed by the governors fixing 40 as the number, and the limit has always been 40, though 1 believe that number has never been reached. We have now the highest number, I believe, that has ever been reached, namely, 37- There have been 37 three times before, and there are 37 now. 1182. Chairmar,.'] Are those the sons of sojourners. They are the sons, in s(jme instances, of gentlemen who have come and resided at Harrow for many years with the greatest benefit to the parish ; and in other cases the sons of gentlemen and ladies who have come simply as birds of passage for the education of their sons, and who will possibly, in four or five years, if they have only one son, and after a longer time if they have more, pass away from us. 1 183. What proportion do the permanent residents you speak of bear to the more temporary residents ? At the present moment there are 37 foundationers to 12 boys who are home- boarders and not foundationers. 1 1 84. How do you distinguish those ; do yon consider the home-boarders tlie sons of permanent residents t No ; there is no distinction of that kind. A home-boarder may be as permanent a resident as another, or the contrary. 1 1 85. You described a class of persons who come and reside for many years, and might be supposed to be pernianently domiciled round Harrow ; and you describe others who come simply to educate their sons, and then pass away ; can you tell the proportion between those two classes ? No, it would be impossible for me to say that. 1 1 86. Lord Lyttdtoii.l 1 presume that the boys brought up in this English form are never spoken of as boys educated at Harrow, are they? No, certainly not I)y the boys at the upper school. The boys at the upper school know nothing of them at all ; I have never heard of any kind of ill- treatment, but 1 imagine that in most cases they do not know of their e.xistence. ] 187. Earl of 'Derby. 1 The distinction is rather felt as a grievance by some of the inhabitants, is it not ? Yes ; it is difficult to understand it, but I can see difficulties in the way of working the otliei' scheme. I do not believe that it would be for the happiness of the sons of the tradesmen and farmers to be mixed up with the majority of the school unless they were doing the same work. Common work is the basis of common life at school, and if you have some boys who are never wishing to enter the upper forms of the school, who are never desired by their parents to learn Greek and Latin verses at all, but only to get a common education, they cannot feel that they are enjoying a common life with the others. 1 188. Lord LyttcUoii.~\ You think that socially it would not work well? I think not, unless you could get them to mix socially by means of common work. I have no prejudice against the admixture of classes if the work is common. I delight in the admixture of classes ; but one class desires one object, and the other another, and unless they ha^c common work it is a mere sham to call it common life ; and although I might call them the first and secouil forms of Harrow School, which I should not object to doing, yet unless they were mixing up with the school ia this work, and looking forward to attain the; highest places in the school instead of leaving it when they were 15, unless some such common basis could be established they could not be really one scliool. 1189. Lord Iloi/g/ilon.] Have you come to the conviction that there is no possible develojjment of the classical elements of a great public school like vours. SELECT COMMITTER ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.J 175 yours, which should satisfy fit once those who desire a classicril and those who The Rev. desire a commercial education? U. M.Butler. I say, as I said before of the Commissioners, I tliink it is very possible that ~~ in years to come public schools may, many of them, have what are called now- '^^"^^'■'•^y '** &• a-days the modern elements attached to tliem. When that exists, that might " meet the case we are contemplating, and 1 believe that by the; particular plan I have ventured to propose there v.ould be nothing to })re\ent that taking place hereafter. It would be open to the governors at any time, if there shotdd be a good modern department in the great classical sclu)ol, to invite tlie sons of tradesmen to enter that school. But I am not prepared to create a modern department at Harrow, extending to the whole school, that is to say, to the sons of those who come from a distance, merely in order to admit the sons of tradesmen and farmers alone. ngo. Would you be disinclined, supposing that there was no such particular class as this of the farmers or tradesmen of Harrow, to admit such an element for the sake of that portion of the sons of the gentry who do not show an aptitude for classical education above the very rudiments r 1 say, then, with all candour, that I think it would be an improvement upon our organisation distinctly if we could make that change. I have felt for some time tliat there is a \ery large number of boys for whom a classical education is not the best adapted, and I look forward to the lime when we shall have at the great public schools not only the elassical element well worked out, but a more modern element from which Greek and classical education should be ex- cluded. 1191. Lord LijtteUon.'] On the bifurcation principle ? On the bifurcation principle. As your Lordship knows at Marlborough, where it is carried out to some extent, the numbers that attend the modern department are very small indeed. I am getting all the evidence I can from the various friends I have, or from the masters at those schools, such as Marl- borough, Cheltenham, and Ilaileybury, and other schools where this principle of the co-existence of the modern and classical elements has been tried, in order hereafter to guide me if I make a change. But I do feel that Harrow, the traditions of wiiich are altogether classical, and which is one of the oldest schools, is one of the last to which that change could be v.isely applied. It will require some organising power to be able to do it well. 1 192. Lord Houghton.~\ Do you admit that, as regards the younger sons of the upper classes in this country, it may become a serious grievance to their parents to find that their sons who have not an aptitude for a classical education, never- theless are compelled by the present system to leave such a school as yours at the age of 16 or 17 not so well educated or furnished fcr the ordinary business of life as they might have been if there were such a secondary establishment as we have been speaking of existing in j'our school ? I do not know that I regard it exactly as a grievance, but perhaps that is only another way of putting it ; I think it would be an improvement in English education if you could have, co-existing by the side of a well-developed classical system, another system in which less classics should be required. 1 193, And in which more preparation should be made for the practical duties of life ? Yes, in other words, I think we shall come to recognise more than we do now, that there are a very large number of boys for whom a classical education is not the best adapted, and that our system will mould itself to that con- viction. 1194. Lord Stratford dc Rsdciiffe.] "What are the subjects of modern educa- tion, as you call it, which you would conceive to be compatible with the pursuit of the classics, without any diminution of the time which is necessary to be devoted exclusively to the classics ? I think very little. Upon that point I have rather a decided opmion. If you want to maintain the teaching of classics in its highest development, including composition in both languages, you should add very little to the collateral or subsidiary studies. At Harrow, as your Lordship may be aware, we have for many years incorporated the study of the modern languages, beginning with (90.) Y 4 mathematics 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Ret. mathematics first of all, and then going- on to tlie modern languages. I have a li. M. Buikr. plan, aUhough it is not worked out in all its details, according to which I am ^ 7^ prepared to recommend the governors to introduce physical science; and had it ' ^ ^^^ ^ J. jjq|. i^gpj-^ fj^j. gpecial circumstances, with which the governors are acquainted. that scheme wovdd have been in their hands six months ago. 1195. Is any portion of the school instruction devoted to mathematics at present ? Yes, every single boy from his first entering the school learns mathe- matics. 1196. Chairman.'] You see no insurmountable obstacle to the introduction of physical science, do you / No, on the contrary-, it has passed its second reading, if I may so say, and it is only now before the Select Committee, and I am for carrying it out. More than six months ago I ventured to develop a scheme, and, as 1 informed the governors, it was only from special circumstances prevented from coming before them, but I hope that before the year is finished, we shall have physical science introduced at Harrow. 1197. With I'eference to the foundation, we had it in evidence the other dav, fiom some respectable witnesses, that many of the parents of boys wlio would otherwise have the benefits of the foundation, are prevented from availing themselves of that benefit by the regulations of the school : that is to say, in the first place, because they live at a distance from the school, say of half-a- mile to two miles; and their boys are not allowed to ride, or to come other- ■wise than on foot to the school ; and, in the second place, according to what was represented to the Committee, on account of the frequency of the bills at the school, and the early attendance at the school in the morning at which it was found absolutely impossible that those boys should attend. There v/as the further difficulty, that they could only take refreshment in a master's house ; and another great point was, the fact of there being a bill immediately after the dinner hour. I dare say you have seen the evidence, and know the points to which I refer. Those regulations would appear as if they had been aimed at excluding the foundationers who live at a distance from the school, and apparent!)' they have acted as a discouragement to their coming ; what remark have you to make upon timt point ? The facts are, that there is a rule which requires any boy, whether he is a foreigner, or v. hether he is a foundationer, to attend all tlie bills, which are at intervals of about tv^■o hours, in round lumibers, and to attend, also, all the schools, of course. In addition to that, there is the rule to which your Lord- ship specially adverted, as to their not being allowed to ride or drive to school. With regard to the rule relating to the attendance at the bills, that rule was made absolute in the year 1852 ; that 1 happen to know. With regard to the other rule about riding and driving, as a matter of fact, I am not able to state whether I inherited that rule, or whether I made it myself; be that as it may, I take the responsibility of it. I cannot inform your Lordships at this moment •when it came into existence ; the rule as to bills has been in existence for 13 years. With regard to riding and driving, it may be less ; but I take the responsibility of that rule, as also of course, of the other. I must own, that I think it is a very good rule. 1 198. You speak of the rule with regard to riding and driving ? Yes ; I do not think it is desirable tliat we should have boys coming to the Kchool from agreut distance. I think it is very bad tliat we should have one set of boys seen by their schoolfellows riding or driving to school when they are themselves, on obvious grounds, Ibrbidden to ride or drive. Again, when a boy gets to that distance away from school, of course our hold over him, in respect of discipline, is very much diminished ; he may go wherever he wn'll ; you have not anything like the same control over him. At the same time, I am ))repared t(j admit that the number who would avail themselves of the privilege of riding and driving, if it were granted, would not be very iarse. o I 199. With respect to discipline, if the boys live 200 yards from the school there would be tlie same difficulty. You state that if they lived at a distance you SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 177 icv. you could not enforce the diseipline ; tliat is very much the case with home- The lie boarders generall}', is it not r •'^- ^i- l^'^t/er. Of course ; we constantly see them aljout us. 1200. Lord IJoiu/hton.j It was stated to the Comniittee that tliere was a roll call or bill after dinner, which was unnecessary in itself, and which was ap- parently estalilished, therefori'. onl}- to exclude the boys coming from a dis- tance ; is there any foundation for that ! I cannot suppose that the bill was framed solely for that particular object ; but I can imagine that the ride may have been framed in th(^ first instance with a view, to some extent, to limit the number of foundationers. I can quite conceive that it may have been so. 1201. With regard to riding and driving : as a matter of principle, if a boy is found at a particular hour at a particular spot, does it matter how lie comes there ? Yes ; in my opinion it is not desirable tliat any of the boys in the school should be seen riding and driving when the majority of the school are pro- liibited from doing so. 1-202. Is all riding and driving prohibited? Yes. 1203. Lord Lyttdton.} You tliink it would be looked upon as a sort of pri- vilege to ride and drive ? Yes, if many avail themselves of it. 1204. Earl of Harruivbi/.] Supposing an arrangement were made by the parents living at a certain hamlet in the neighbourhood that an omnibus or some other conveyance should bring four or five boys together to school, would you see any objection to that ^ I own that that would be a difi'erent case. 1205. Chairman.^ Is the rule absolute, that the boys shall come on foot r Practically, it is. 1206 Earl oi Derby. ^ Does not that rule and the frequency of bills prac- tically exclude those boys who live a mile or a mile and a half off ? It tends to limit the number. 1207. It tends practically to exclude the sons of the clergy in the neigh- bouring parishes ? Yes. 1208. Earl of Ha?rowb7j.'\ Those being the very persons intended to be benefited by John Lyon? No, I think there is no allusion to the clergy ; I do not mean to say that he would not have sympathised with them : very probably he would have done so. i2og. I refer to the inhabitants of those places generally? Yes, it has a tendency to exclude some boys whom John Lyon would have admitted. 121U. Earl of Derby.] Are they not a class of boys who particularly stand in need of the education to be given at Harrow ? Yes, in the case of the clei"gy I think so, they are just those whom I regret to exclude. 1211. Are they not cases in which you feel yourself justified in making an exception from the rule that excludes them r It is difficult to draw a line ; no doubt it is the weak point of the rule that it does exclude those boys. 1212. Lord Li/tteltoJi.] It excludes boys coming from some parts of the parish of Harrow ? Yes, the justification would be that in process of time it has been more and more felt that it is desirable to have no variations in the discipline. (90.) Z 1213. Earl ijjtli May ^SC)r,. 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The^. 1213. Earl of Harrowby.'] 1 think it was said that one of those rules H. M. Butler. had 19th May 1865. been made more stringent within a year r I do not know what that refers to. -.214- Lord Houghton.] I think it referred to the bill at one, and a^ain at two o'clock i ° So far as I recollect that has always been so. 1215. Chairman.] It was the bill that prevented their going home to dinner ? They do go liome to dinner. 1216. Earl of Harrowbij.] If they have to go half a mile or a mile off they cannot go, can they ? No, it is very hard for them to go any distance. 1217. Might not there be some rule by which they might take their meals elsewhere than in a master's house ? There is no rule requiring that ; I confess I think that we should have to make some such rule if cases arose ; I may state, that I know the case of a boy who takes his meals in a master's house at present. 1218. Parents might make arrangements with a friend that a boy might take his meals in the friend's house ; but that would not be allowed by the rules of the school as 1 understand it ? There is no such rule as that ; but I think we should wish to make a rule to that effect if cases arose. If a boy wanted to take his meals anywhere he should take them with his tutor ; every boy has a tutor, and that would be the natural arrangement. I know a case where a boy does come from a mile and a quarter off, and he takes his meals with his tutor. 1219. Such an arrangement can be made, then ? Yes, it is made. 1 220. Duke of Marlborough.] Would there be any difficulty in the parents of a boy or the guardians with whom he resides signing a paper stating that he has been present on a certain occasion when he has been home for his meals ? We have no signatures except from a tutor. The parent in each case sends the name of the boy to the tutor when he has been absent, and the tutor judges of the case and signs the paper or not accordingly. 1221. I mean to ask, whether there would be any difficulty in it? Your Grace means whether it would be desirable to allow the home boarders to be exempted from this bill ? 1222 Yes, the parents signing the paper for them, and being answerable for their appearance on certain occasions at their own homes ? I think it is desirable to have as few exceptions as possible, and I also think it is desirable to limit the numbers. 1 do not mean to limit the numbers of the home boarders so much as to limit the number of the foundationers as much as possible to those who are near residents in Harrow ; that is to say, I woidd rather have 50 or 60 home boarders if they were resident in Harrow than have 30 residents in Harrow and five at a greater distance. It is not the number that I care for so much, but I do not like their being far away. I 223. The limits of Harrow, as contemplated by John Lyon to be benefited by his foundation, extend to a considerable distance from Harrow itself, do they not, far beyond the present bounds of the parish ? I believe the farthest point would be 1 1 miles, but there are some points which are much less than that, at no greater distance than two and a half miles ; no doubt it would be a boon to persons living there if parents were allowed to send their sons from that distance. 1224. liifihop of London.] You do not wish to Hmit the number of home boarders otherwise than it is limited by the distance, do you ? No, I think the home warders ought to form a most important element in the school ; I would not for the world destroy them altogetluT. I may state, that I believe a misconception has arisen with regard to the object of the Commis- sioners SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 179 sioners in theii* Report. The Commissioners, as I now know from some passages The Rev. in their Report, certainly never contemplated at all the demolition of the home S. M. Duthr. boarder system ; 1 consider, myself, it is very important to retain the home boarders ; but I think they ought to form a comparatively small element. I am ^'i''' ^«y '^^5- prepared to recommend to the governors tliat the limit should be GO. 1225. Chairman.] That there should be 60 home boarders? Yes, 60 home boarders altogether. 1226. Exclusive or inclusive of foundationers ? Inclusive of foundationers. 1 227. Bishop of London.'] That is as many as there arc at present ? We have never had so many as yet ; we have never had more than hb ; now there are 49 : the numbers have hardly ever reached 50, but as Harrow increases the number of home Ijoarders migh',. increase very largely, and might practically swamp the school ; because there are two elements in the school, the element of residents with the masters, and the element of residents at home. The element of residents with the masters is clearly fixed by the limits of the houses. If you allowed the other element to increase indefinitely, you would either have to swell the total number of the school, which would be a great inconvenience, or you would have to limit the numbers in the masters' houses. 1 228. Earl of DerhTj.] What are the proportions of the numbers of those two classes in the school now ? The total number in the school now is .'Jl/ ; the number of home boarders, including 3/ foundations, is 49. 1 229. Are you afraid of the 49 swamping the 51/ r ■ Not in the least now : but it is possible that if you had, on the other hand, a fixed limit of about 500 for the whole school, which I think is very desirable, and if you allowed one of those elements to increase indefinitely, if you allowed the 49 to increase to 149, and there is nothing whatever to prevent it except the rules made by the governors, you must of course impoverish the other element in proportion. 1 230. Lord Lyttelton'.] The 60 you would contemplate as being an absolutely fixed and permanent limit, irrespective of any increase in the population of the parish ? I think so. I think it is also desirable to limit the numbers in the school and the numbers in every house. 1231. Bishop of London] You agree with those who state that the presence of those home boarders is very desirable in the school ? Yes. 1232. That is to say within limits, but you are afraid of having too many of them ? Yes. I have always considered that the main life of tlie school lies in the great houses ; but I feel, and there is not a boy in the school who does not feel, that the home boarders are a most valuable element in every way. First of all, I think they are subjected to fewer temptations when they first come to be idle, and being at home they are likely to work steadily, and it is of great service to us, having boys who are likely to rise to the top of their forms at once, though we generally see that that passes away afterwards as they get into competition with other boys ; but it is of great service to us to have that element introduced. Then, they take their part also in the general social life of the school ; but, as a rule, a boy has not lived the full vigorous life of the school, unless he has been an influential member of a large house ; that is felt, I know, by the home boarders themselves, and therefore I would say that, considering the boarding ho uses to represent the marrow of the school, it is undesirable that the home boarders should be a very large element, and so tend inevitably to the diminution of the house element. 1233. Chairman.] Do you consider that the social influence of the home boarders, or rather of the parents of the home boarders, has been beneficial to the school ? I do decidedly. I think the presence of the gentlemen and ladies who have (90.) z 2 come 180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tlu: Rev. oome to Harrow has been a decided good to us, and has given us a ])etter H. M. Butler. society and a number of fresh ideas. igtli Maj- 1865. '234. Earl of Harrowby.] You would lose some of those persons, if you destroyed the foundation, would you not ? To some extent, but not to a great extent ; even if you abolished the foundation altogether, you would not lose all of them by any means. I am far from belieiing that parents would cease to come and reside there on that account. I believe that the attractions of the place are not confined to saving 24 l. a year in education, and I think that even if they had to pay 41 /., they would come still ; but I do not pi'opose for a moment that the foundation should be destroyed entirely. 1235. Bishop of London. ^, Some of the witnesses have stated that a provision for limiting the number of the school would practically do away with the home boarders ; what is your opinion upon that point ? It is meant that it would operate so practically, but not intentionally, on the part of the governors. But it could only operate in that direction in this way. If you assume that the masters set their faces as a body against the home boarders, and wanted to have another large house instead of having the home boarders, and if you could get the governors also to back them up in that, and if you could silence the mouths of those who were at the time home boarders, it is conceivable that it might be done. But the masters are unanimous in their desire to have the home boarder element, and the governors, 1 apprehend, would not support them if they wanted to get rid of it. J 236. Would it not be better to limit the number of home boarders and foundationers than to limit the number of the school ? I have ventvu'ed to propose to the governors that the number of every great boai'ding-house should be limited once for all by their authority to a number never to be exceeded, except under some special circumstances to be reported to them by the head master, and I think the number of foundationers and home boarders should be limited in the same way. Then every element would have its fair proportion. 1 237. Earl of Devon.'] Supposing the number of applicants to be home boarders exceeded the number that had been fixed, how could the governors make the selection ? I think, in most cases, I am speaking now of home boarders, not of founda- tioners, I should certainly adopt the plan of priority of application ; I do not think there would be much competition considering that there is no pecuniary benefit. 1238. Chairman.'] Do you think that the sojourners, whether they be per- manent residents, as some are, or whether they be transcuntcs , as others are, are fully entitled to the advantages of the bequest of John Lyon ? Regarded as a claim, I say distinctly that none but bond fide residents in Harrow, those who have been there some time, have a claim, that is to say, a moral claim, to the benefits of the foundation ; no man can seriously main- tain that John Lyon ever supposed that gentlemen would come from a distance and bring their families to be educated at Harrow : at the same time, while I deny the right in that sense, I feel that it is a great adv^antage to be able to give to the sons of the gentry, especially those who are in reduced circum- stances, and abov(> all to widows, the advantage of a gentleman's education at a comparatively low rate ; and, therefore, upon the ground of general expe- diency, and fe(!lin<^ the want in this country of the means of giving a classical education at a low rate, I would not recommend the total abolition of the foundation. 1 239. Have you ever considered the point which was brought before us by Dr. T('in]ilc this morning, namely, that, however desirable it might be that the children of the poorer gentry should have the benefit of this foundation, and should l)e able to educate their eliildien at this cheap rate, we must take into consideration the greater number of those who, because they are not able to fulfil tli(^ j)rimary recjuiremcnt of residence in Harrow, are consequently excluded from it, and who therefon; would have gi'eater advantages given to them if the foundation SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 181 foundation were thrown open altogether, and they could compete for it ; take, The Rn: for instance, the clergy, who cannot leave their homes ? H- 3/. Butler. I would say, first of all, that if the governors had large funds to dispose of, ,nii, Maj 18C5. I should not contend for a limited coni])etition ; but, as it is, I ))ropose merely a ' competition Ijctween residents in Harrow of two years' standing ; that is, of course, a very limited area. What I proposed was, that the governors should use the surplus left over from the lower school for the foundation of scholarships of a certain value, to be competed for by r(!sidents of two years' standing ; but if, instead of having -100 /. to dispose of, they had had about 4,000/., I confess I should have thought that the establishment of such a system might lead to local jobbings. 1240. Earl of iArA/y. J 1 understand the question to have been, whether you concurred with Dr. Temple in the opinion he expressed, that inasmuch as it is very desirable to educate, at the expense of the charity, the sons of gentlemen in reduced circumstances, and of widows, it would not be desirable to do away with the limit which confines it to persons of that class residing in Harrow, and to extend it to persons of that class all over the kingdom ; that would be practically throwing open the foundation, many of those persons being unable to leave home ? Considering the small sum we have at our disposal, J should be prepared to give the preference to the local claim, but I say, if we had a larger sum (perhaps I give up the })rinciple in so doing), for instance, if it were 4,000/. instead of 400/. it might be well to throw it open to the whole country, otherwise there might be some local jobbing. 1241. Do you think that such an extension would be in accordance with the spirit of John Lyon's will ? No, I think not ; but I think Parliament might intervene 300 years after the date of that will, and say, that this was what was needed. 1242. Chairman.'] Yet you say you do not consider that the system of people coming to reside at Harrow, just for the sake of the education on the foundation, js a strict fulfilment of John Lyon's bequest ? Yes, but I suppose that they have been there two years, and then it does, to a certain extent, carry out the will of John Lyon. 1243. You have already stated, that those who come and reside there an hour can obtain the benefit ? They can, as it at present stands. 1 244. It was in respect of those that I was asking you, if yon thought that they derived that benefit in strict compliance with John Lyon's will ? Certainly not ; I think they have no claim whatever. 1245. Lord Houghtoji.] Do you value the principle of competitive exami- nation very highly, as applied to joung boys of 13 or 14 ? I may answer that question in two ways. I want to have a system of exhi- bition at Harrow School, irrespective of the foundation, in order to enable them to run a better chance with the other great schools, Eton, Winchester, Westminster, Rugby, and Wellington College, and several others, in getting the ablest boys from the preparatory schools to come to us. I am sure we shall not long be able to go on running in competition with those schools, unless we do attract some really able boys to us by those means ; but that does not bear upon the question of the foundation. The advantage of having clever boys is not only the gratification it brings to the master, but also that it sets an example ; in every form it provides you with some boys who can l)e respected for their intellectual attainments. We cannot get on without that. 1246. Chairman.'] Their influence pervades the whole school : Yes. 1 247. Lord Houghton.] Does not your answer rather tend to what is the general complaint with regard to public schools, that the main attention in those schools is paid to procui'ing a certain number of very clever boys, rather than to raising the general education of the school r 1 think there are other means which provide for the general education of the (90-) z 3 school, 182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. school, but honestly this is one of the best ; having a considerable element of boys H. M. Butler, vvho are really respected for their ability is the best stimulant that you can apply, iqtii MayTsej. ^ think. You want other stimulants You want to take care that lazy boys, , and boys who make no progress, shall not remain. 1 248. Is not competition a very uncertain test in the case of boys at an early age? Not at the age, I think, of \'.\, 14, and 15. I should have said so if I had been asked the question five years ago, but I think it has been tried no>v in so many pubHc schools, including Rugby, that the reverse has been established as the fact. 1249. ^*^ "^t habit and temperament, and especially the cost of previous education, enter very largely into the question r The cost of previous education, no doubt, tells immensely, but it also tells all through the boys career, and the influence of it extends into his after life ; but I have observed that tlie bovs whom we place very high at Harrow, when they first come in almost always keep a high place, and we find the same boy regu- larly 3'ear after year always coming within the first three places. Those boys who come from a good preparatory school, and have been placed high, remain so. The same would be the case with boys who come in by competition ; and that has been found to be the fact at Uugby in a marked way in the last three years; and also at Eton, those whom they select even at this early age by classical competition do remain the power of the school. 1250. Earl oi Derby. ^ Have you any regulation by which foundationers of a certain age, not having reached a certain point in the school, shall be compelled to resign ? One of the rules that has been made within the last few days is, that unless a boy reaches the " shell," as we call it, by 16 he must leave ; unless he reaches the 5th form by 1 /, he must leave ; and unless he reaches the 6th form by 1 8, he must leave ; so that, without casting any particular slur upon a boy, he will, by the law of the school, pass away. 1251. hoxA. Hoiujliton.'] Must there not always be a tendency in those re- wards that are piven bv competition to cau.se the previous education to have been of that nature which shall tend exclusively to direct the minds of the boys to a preparation for certain subjects, rather than to thai general education which is of tlie niost importance in after life - I assume that if a boy comes to a classical scliool, where the education is mainly classical, he ought to be prepared in a mainly classical groove ; but still, if he is to succeed really well at a public school he must have been well pre- pared befonhand in the peculiar studies of that school. 1252. Would you rather, for your own purpose of producing a really sound and good school, have the boys educated from the very commencement in the special groove of your school studies r Yes. I woul'!, certainly ; but I do not mean by saying that, that 1 would teach them nothing else at all. In almost all the preparatory schools now they teach French and mathematics. I was by no means desirous to press the proposal of competition with regard to those boys who were to be admitted on to the foun- dation ; I propose that the governors should regard the English form as the first charge upon them, and that, after that is provided for, the surplus should be devoted to a foundation for the l)oys in the upper school, and I have pro- posed that these foundation scholarships shoidd be awarded by competition. I confess that I do not think it is of great importance on what principle those foundation scholarships are awai-ded ; if you were to have the j)rinciplc of priority, if application coupled with some declaration, not exactly of poverty, but of not having an income above a certain amount, I do not see but whal. that might work well, and perhaps it woidd find greater favour among tlie in- habitants of Harrow. i2.-)3. Chairma».'\ Do you not think that the surplus you allude to is simply a myth, Ix'causc knowing that you have to deal with 600 /. or 700 /. a year, do you not think that that would quite fall short of what wovdd be the require- ments of a school established and conducted as you contemplate ? I think there would |)r<)bably be some surplus, even as the (iovernors' Funds now are; but I think there are wavs by which the (ilovernors' Funds might be SELECT COMMITTEE ONf THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 183 be increased ; not to the extent vvliich some persons seem to have contem- The Jie-j. plated in their evidence, but still tlicre are ways, some of which 1 have sug- '^- ^ Butler. gested in my letters to the governors, by which some 300 /. a year might be ,"77" added without any difficulty. '^ ^^ ^ ^* 12.54- I-ord Lytteltvn.'] Will you jjut in the letter to which you allude? It has not yet been presented to tlu^ governors. 12.55. Biit/iop of Londo7i.\ Your sole object for wishing to do away with the present foundation is that you may have funds to fuund the lower school r There are two points demanding consideration in the present system ; one is, that the foundation is now oj)en to some persons who ought not to use it, as to that point no doubt it might be limited, possibly by the regulation of the governors ; and the other i)oint is, that the interests of the farmers and trades- men of Harrow are now neglected, but would be provided for by a foundation of this kind. I think the second of these two points is by far the more important. 1256. Chairman.'] Some evidence which we had the other day rather sur- prised ine, and I think others also ; some witnesses seemed to think that the existence of the great school at Harri'ow was prejudicial to property in its immediate vicinity ; it is true that they coupled that evidence with the state- ment that land was worth 1,000/. an acre close to the school, and very much less at a distance ; still, there seemed to be a general impression that the school was prejudicial to property ; have you any reason to think that that is the case :■ No ; there are some arguments which it is impossible to meet, and I cannot pretend to persuade people who think that the school is a nuisance to Harrow, that it is a blesssing. I aiii fully convinced Harrow would be a poor and in- significant place were it not for the school and the great expenditure which is made there by the foreigners. 12.57. Earl of Derby.] I must not ask )''ou in the presence of the Chairman whether you are satisfied with your present Board of Governors, but I may ask whether you desire any change to de made, or what you think of the change proposed in the Bill ? 1 do object, I must own, very strongly indeed to the change proposed in the Bill, not so much to doubling the number of the governors ; that is a point upon which 1 hardly presume to have an opinion ; though, I confess, it seems to me that the number ol governors is to be increased mainly, I suppose, because they find it dirticult always to secure a quorum ; but it seems unnecessary that they should be so many as 12. I should have thought eight would have been suf- ficient, I 258. What is the present number? There are six at present ; 1 believe it is found in practice difficult to secure an adequate quorum to dispatch the business. If there were more governors no doubt that diificulty would be to some extent met, but I doubt whether it is desirable to double the number ; it is a matter of every day remark, that if you increase a board you diminish the sense of individual responsibihty. But if you are to have an increase I should have thought that eight or nine vFould meet the case better. I should think it would be better to have nine, because there are obvious advantages in i*n odd number ; I may mention to your Lordships, if the Bill passes as it now is there will be one privilege, as I think it is, taken away, which ought to be considered, and that is the casting vote which has been hitherto reserved by the statutes for the Archbishop of Canterbury ; the pre- sent provisions of the Act of Pnrlinmpnt are, that whenever the numbers are equally divided the Archbishop shall have the casting vote. To show how im- portant that is, I may mention that I believe on three occasions, and on three occasions running, the head master was appointed by the casting vote of the Archbishop ; my own father was appointed in that way ; the governors divided equally, and the Archbishop chose one of the candidates. So again, in two other instances on record ; I conceive that it is too great a power to leave to a simple casting vote. If you had nine governors they would divide five to four, or seven governors would divide four to three ; but if you have a casting vote it cannot be better placed than where it is now. 12.5Q. I meant to ask your opinion, not so much as to the number of the (90.) z 4 governors, 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE TluRcv. governors, as to whether the addition of another class was desirable ; would }ou H. M. Bviler. desire to have the addition of those scientilic governors who are to be separately elected, scientific vacancies being filled by scientific men, and ordinary vacancies i!)ti. May 18 65. ^^^^^ ^^gj ^^ ordinary men ': I confess I have a very strong opinion upon that point ; that is a great disad- vantage as weakening our hands, that it would not add to the cheerfulness with which we work if the governors were to assume the power of in any sense interfering with the studies of the school. I am not prepared to say whether now they ])0ssess the power or not, but it has never been exercised I believe ; possibly that, for all practical pui'poses, would be regarded as something like an absence of power. But I may say further, that it would be very disadvantageous, as tending seriously to diminish the sense of the head master's responsibility, if the governors were to interfere with the studies of the school. I cannot help thinking that the addition of those three governors, who are to be appointed on scientific and literary grounds, would only have this meaning, that they would be there to watch the case, as it were, and to offer suggestions as to the introduction of particular studies. ]2t)0. Chairman,'] You entirely approve of the present system of the governing body being such that it is not sufficiently numerous often to make a quorum, and being at the same time so utterly powerless that in your opinion you cannot conceive a question in which, except as a matter of courtesy, you would be prepared to refer to them r Your Lordship puts it in strong terms. 1261. I was quoting from yovn* evidence before the Commission as to what you considered were the relations between the head master and the governors ; I think you will agree with me that I have not overstated the relations which exist. 1 (luite understand your beina; perfectly satisfied with that state of things ? I would say,in the first place, that, although six governors might form a quorum, if it is found in practice that there is a difficulty in getting them to form a quorum, and if the causes of that difficulty have been well considered, far be it from me to raise any objection to the additional number ; but, in addition to that, there still remains the question of whether the number shall be nine or twelve. Passing, however, to a more important question, I confess that I am extremely well satisfied with the relations existing between the governors and the head master. It is true, as a matter of fact, that the governors do not interfere with the head master at all : but the head master knows perfectly well that if there was any serious misconduct on his part, I do not mean of the most grave kind; but if he showed a marked degree of unwisdom, if I may use tlie word, it is in the power of the governors to remove him, and it is a practical question whetlier it is better to have a general check over the head master which he never forgets, but does not feel practically much shackled by, or whether you do intend to bring this reigning into actual government. 1262. That is going to the extreme. Any autocrat might say " 1 have ab- solute jjower, no one can interfei-e with me, but if I do things so very wrong my sid)iects have a way in which they can remedy that grievance ? '" i may perhaps correct your Lordship s statement in one imi)ortant respect ; in the i)aper I had the honour to forward to your Lordship, signed by all my colleagues, it is distinctly admittetl that it is very desirable for the governors to have the general control over all the sums received by the head master. That is a most important point ; it strikes me that in matters of finance it is well for us to have a superior authority controlling us. Up to this time for five years I have had the (uitire control of the very large sums of money which have passed into my hands from what is ])aid by the foreigners. 1263. Amounting to 1 (),()()()/. a year ? Yes, amounting to 10,000/. a year on the wliole ; but, as yew Lordship ino^3, there are great deductions in the way of salaries to master.s smd others. 1264. (ireat deductions made by your own liberality r And some are very large and detailed items. There ought not to be that micontrolled power in the hands of the head master. 1 jjropose that every year tlie head master shall send in to the governors a statement showing the balance SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h,L.] 185 bal.'ince of the accounts, and exactly how every penny received from the i)arents The Rev. has Ix'en expended. But even there, I think the governors would make; a great H- M. Butler. mistake if they insisted upon takins: the initiative with regard to that expendi- ture. I conceive that the true function of tlie governors is to (;ontrol, not to 19 th May 18 65. Initiate expenditure. It cjuiuot be said that I propose to reduce the governors to a caput 'iiiortimm, when 1 liave proposed to place in their liands, for the first time, the very important function of controlling the sums which the head mas- ter receives. 1265. With regard to tlie power whi(;h the Commissioners proposed to give to the governing bodies, there has been a great mistake ; the Commissioners never contemplated that those powers should be exercised ; they merely ))ro- posed that those powers should be in reserve, just as they are at present at Rugby ; we thought that the governing body might be able to exercise those powers if necessary ; we thought that a wholesome effect might be produced upon the discipline and management of the school by the knowledge that the power might be exercised, and was always held in abeyance and kept in reserve by the trustees of the governing body, ready to be exercised if they were dis- satisfied with the head master; it was with that object that we suggested it, not at all desiring that they should initiate measures ? I had gathered from the Commissioners' recommendations that they did not wish to shackle the head masters in that respect. At the same time the motives of bodies are transitory things, and, perhaps, the governing body might take a different view of it some years hence. 1266. The excellence of the head master is also transitory? Then he can be removed. 1267. Earl of Derby.'] Did I understand you to say that the governors did not exercise any control over the funds of the foundation ? Over the funds of the foundation they do entirely, but practically the school is maintained by the large sums paid by the parents of foreigners, and those funds are not controlled. 1 268. Chairman.] What is the exact nature of the objection you take to the appointment of scientific governors ? I shoidd not have the slightest objection to gentlemen of eminence in science and literature being made governors ; such men as Lord Maeaulay, or Sir John Hersehell ; any school would be proud to have at the head of it ; but I object to this being made a legal and compulsory obligation, because of the animus impojicnlis; it wouldbe distinctly understood that they were to exercise a particular influence upon particular studies, which the Commissioners tell us have been neglected ; they would seek to justify their appointment, otherwise why are they there ? 1260. Lord JFrotleski/.] It is not science in the abstract, but it is science as introduced into this Bill which you object to ? Yes, science introduced by compulsion, and intended to work. Mr. Michael hands in certain written questions, and requests that they may be put to the witness. 1270. Mr. Michael (Through the Committee).] In putting the income at 1,060/. per annum, you do not include value of land upon which the school and premises stand, and your own house ? I do not, 1271. Chairman.] With respect to that question, I may ask you if you have seen the account rendered by Mr. Humbert, a surveyor, as to the actual value of the rent of our property, and that which he thinks it might be let for r I have glanced over it, so as to see its general purport. 1272. Have you any remarks to make upon it, or upon the question you have just been asked with respect to including the value of the land on which the school premises stand, and your own house ? I may say with regard to my own house, that it is part of my suggestion to the governors that the head master, if the governors think fit, may be charged for a certain number of foundation scholarships for his own house. In con- sideration of having his private ho use free they might call upon him to pro- (90.) A A vide 1S6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tlif Rn: ^''^^^ " certain number of those scbolarsliips, if tliey thouglit it rif^ht ; I should H: jSI. Euikr. not object to It at all. ig th May 18 65. 1073. You be..- that Mr. Humbert values the land with referenee to the buildings that are upon it ; but those buildings have not been raised out of the foundation funds, but are the result of private subscriptions? I am not quite certain to what buildings Mr. Humbert refers ; might I have the advantage of mentioning them in detail if they have been referred to la detail; I have Mr. Humbert's valuation before me ; I think there have been some distinct mistakes in this valuation of Mr. Huiubert's ; for instance, the pupil room I see is here estimated at 100/. We generally call those buildings the New Schools; I apprehend they are buildings to the north of the chapel that are meant ; those rooms are built upon ground that belonged to my father, as a matter of fact and not to the governors at all ; it was purchased from my father, and the buildings were paid for partly, and indeed mainly, by very large subscriptions indeed among the masters before I became a master at Harrow, and partly also, I believe, by payments from the scholars in the school by ti:e kind wilHngness of their parents lo join ; but, I believe, these new schools were ahnost entirely built by the masters' subscriptions, and they cer- tainly were luilt upon ground which the governors had no claim to at all ; there- fore I conceive it would be a strange thing now to tax the school for buildings erected on property not belonging to the trust, and by funds other than those of the trust. 1274. The land upon which these buildings have been erected did not form part of the property of Jolm Lyon ? iS'o ; it belonged to my father, as it happens ; I see that notliirig is said as to the chapel ; that again, of course, was built upon land which did not belong to the governors at all ; the governors gave up nothing there. That land was jjre- sented freely by my father, but the building of the cha])el (the land having been presented freely) at an expense of something like 12,000 /. for the second chapel, and 4,000/. for the first, was given partly by the masters and partly by the old Harrovians, who subscribed most generously, as they always do, and partly also , by (he parents of the boys. I'hen the library was built upon land part of which belonged to the governors. 1 27-;. In right of what? It had belonged to them for a long time ; it was part of the trust property. Part of it belonged to them, and part of it belonged to a gentleman who had properly in Harrow, and from whom it was purchased at a very large cost; but the part which the governors possessed had, up to that time, three or four houses, 1 think, upon it. It was, I believe, three houses, besides the head master's stables. The heiid master s stables were destroyed, and there were three small houses destroyed, which brought in 30 /. or 40 /. a year. I should think probably the larger sum. It is not for me to say what motive swayed the governors in allowing the property to be parted with without getting an eciuivalent ; but 1 can well conceive that the governors considered that they might well give up the land with its rent of 40 /. a year, for a building which cost upon the whole, with the site, upwards of 10,000 I., and was an enormous benefit to the whole school, and was of course in every sense an improvement of their property. 1 hey have now upon their property this noble building, whicli cost, from first to last, something like 1 0,000/., including the site. The governors, I appr( bend, woidd consider themselves the governors of the whole school and not of the foundationers alone. That j)rinciple was expressly recognised in Sir William Grant's decision. He pointed out how the school room was built larger, and the playground made more commodious to satisfy the wants of both classes, tlu' foreigners as well as the founf.ationers. But, with regard to the great school, there was an original house ; that hou£e is entirely the governor's propc rty. J 276. Is it trust property ? Yes, it is trust ])roperty : .'30 years ago, a very large part of the buildings now at the top of the lull were added entirely by private suhscriution in my father's time. About 8,000/. were sub'^cribed by old ll.irroviaiis. It seems strange to consider thai as projJLrt}' of the governors, and to say that there inti*t be SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS KILLS. [H. L.] 187 be a tax in rci^pect of it upon those who now administer the funds of the school, The lie. but it is rather a mutter for the lawyers than for mo. ^- ^^- J^'-^""'"- 1277. In fact that there should he a tax imposed upon what are called the ,yth May 1865. foreigner.'^, for the purpose of increasing llu' funds of the foundation ? "^ ~ • It is moi e a matter lor the lawyers than myself. But I do not see the justice of regarding this property which the foreigners alone, or almost exclusively, havt; rendered valuable pulilie property, or trust property, the moment it iias passed over from the foreigners. J 278. What rent do you pay for your house at the present moment ? I pay for my private house nothing at all. John Lyon has expressly provided that tl>e head master should have a house built for him. Wliether he con- templated such a good house as the present one I do not say, probably not. If it were thought desirable for the governors to include that as a ])art of the property which should go to the foundation, I should offer no objection at all to the house being charged with a certain number of scholars. As regards the boarding house, it was not built at the expense of the governors at all, but at the expense of the old Harrovians, v.'ho subscribed munificently for that again, and for that the governors exact a rent of 60 /. a year on account of the land it stands on. 1279. Earl oi Derby.'] Supposing there were to be an entire separation be- tween the foundation and the school, is there any ])ortion of the existing pro- perty of the jonit body which you would consider to be fairly the property of the foundationers in addition to the 700/. a year of trust money for education? If there were an absolute severance, 1 think that would be a question to be considered, and I think that those who considered it ought to take into account that the value of that proi^erty had arisen from the subscriptions of foreigners ; as a matter of equity, I should not be prepared to resist any such estimate. • 1280. Have you formed any idea of what the additional value of the property regarded in that light would be .- I have not. 1281. Mr. Michael (By the Committee).] Do you know that the head master of Winchester pays 350 /. per annum for his boarding house because a sum of 10,000 /. of William of Wykeham's Funds was spent on it ? No, I was not aware of' that. 1 think that the governors of Harrow might with advantage ask the head master to pay a higher rent on his own boarding house. 1 was ready to make that suggestion to them some months ago. 1282. Chairman] The 10,000 /., I apprehend, was not spent upon the house .- No, not upon that house ; it was spent by subscription of the old Harrovians. The head master's boarding house is entirely due to the old Harrovians, not to the governors. 1283. Mr. MicJiad (Through the Commitlee).] Do you consider that the sojoiu-ners in Harrow have deprived the bomi fide residents of John Lyon's liounty ? No,' I do not see that they have at all, because no one asks whether a man is a sojourner or a resident ;' he is an inhabitant in the technical sense of the word. We do not ask whether he has been there a year or a day. As regards the tradesmen and farmers, I say that the progress of events has distinctly led to the farmers and tradesmen getting no direct benefit from the foundation ; they do get an indirect benefit, that indirect benefit being the circulation of money, but they get no direct educational benefit from it. 1284. If cireumstances have raised the school to its present position, should the cireumstances which have brought from afar those who desire John Lyon's education be disregarded, and, because parents come from afar, is that a reason for shuttina; them out ' I certainly do feel that the persons who come from a distance have no kind of claim in equity to the money which John Lyon left. As to the legal claim, the knowledge tliat such a right has been recognised for so many years may give them a right, I do not ^say either way ; but, morally considered, I should hold that they'have no claim whatever to the money John Lyon left, because _ he could not possibly have contemplated persons of that character deriving the benefit from his foundation. (90.) A A -2 1^85. Is 188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE j.j^^ jj ^ I 2S.T. Is your brotber vice principal at Cheltenham ? H. M. Butler. Yes. ,^^^ "Z ,««,- 1 'iSo. Do vou know that the cost of education there is under 20 I. a head r igm iviay 1005. ^^ , c J_^ 1. • No, I was not aware 01 that. !287. Cli airman.'] Is there any other matter connected with the Bill upon which you have any observations you wish to make r No. J28S. Do you know of the son of a Harrow tradesman at the present time about to go up to the University, and likely to do well, who has not had the advantage of getting any benefit under John Lyon's will ? Yes, I am proud to say there is such a boy who is an inhabitant of Harrow, and who certainlv, if he had applied, would have got into our school, and would have got on well in it. He might have applied for admission. There was nothing to prcA^ent him; he is the son of a haberdasher in Harrow; he went to the City of London School, and when I heard that he was there, I wrote to Dr. Mortimer to ask if he was going on thoroughly well, and I found that he was, so I at once sent for the boy to congratulate him upon it. i.28q. Why did that tradesman, seeing that he had got a clever boy, not avail himself of the foundation at Harrow r I think because he felt that all the rest of the boys were of a different class of society. I do not believe that his son would have been so happy there, or that he would have worked so well. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Monday next, Twelve o'clock. SELECT COJIMiTTEE ON THK PUl'MC SCHOOLS IllLL. [ll. L.] 189 Die LuncE, 9.T Mail 1865. PRESENT H.E.H. The Prince of Wales. Lord President. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Harrowby. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount EVERSLEY. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Wrottesley. Lord Houghton. THE EARL OF CLARENDON in the Chair. Chairman.] Mr. Hope Scott, you will have the goodness, if you please, to 22d May 186; confine yourself to the interests of Eton College, which are supposed to be injuriously affected by the Bill, and not go into the pohcy of the Bill. Mr. Hope Scotl.] Including in what I may deal with, I suppose, the rights of property, the position of the foundation, and, what the preamble expressly points to, the Will of the Founder. Lord Lyttelton."] Yovi will keep to the same line as the other counsel did. Mr. Hope Scott.] Unfortunately your Lordships' proceedings are so managed that except by some faint echo I cannot ascertain what has passed in this room. Lord Lyttelton.] I think you must know it very well generally. Mr. Hope Scott.] I assure your Lordship that except that 1 have had the benefit of speaking to one of your Lordships, the secrets of the prison-house have been kept from me completely. Chairman.] You cannot call this quite a close Committee, I think. Mr. Hope Scott.] What I mean, my Lord, is this ; there are no printed reports of the speeches or printed reports of the evidence before your Lord- ships, and without those I shall be constantly in danger of going over ground trodden by my learned friends before me, which I certainly do not wish to do, and would avoid doing if I could. However, my case is so peculiar a one, for the Provost and College of Eton, that I can hardly think that the ground has been much travelled by previous counsel. At any rate, inasmuch as it stands upon much the same footing, but has been dealt with in a very different way from Westminster, and as I understand that Westminster has either not petitioned against the Bill, or has not appeared upon its petition, and inasmuch as it stands upon the same ground, and is professedly to be dealt with in the same way as Winchester, and Winchester has not thought it worth while to be heard by counsel against the Bill, it is not likely Lord Lyttelton.] Winchester has petitioned against the Bill. Mr. ILope Scott.] Not to be heard by counsel ; I think your Lordships will find the reasons i'or that course ; 1 think I shall be able to explain by-and- by. But, I say, inasmuch as upon the two principal institutions resembling Eton there have been no counsel heard before your Lordships upon the Bill, and inasmuch as I shall be able to show your Lordships an immense difference between the position of my college and the [losition of the schools which have (90.) A A 3 been 190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TUB acJMay 1165. been heard befm-e your Lordships, I think it id exceedi!ie,ly unhkcly that you are yet in possession of any of the material points which bear upon my case. My Lords, the Bill has a general title, it is called an " Act to make further Provision for the good Government a>nd Extension of Public S(;hooIs." But, general though the title may be, there cert;nnl> is an apprehension, shared by very intelligent persons with myself, that the Riil is specially directed aguinst Eton College, that the other schools introduced into it are in the nature of make-v/fights, and that the attack upon \\ iachester College itself is an attack so certain to fail that Winchester College may be safely introduced for the pur- pose of uniformity, and in order to give the appearance of impartiality to the attack upon Eton. Tliat, my Lords, is the position which I take up, and which, having very carefull}- studied these papers, I think I can maintain. By-and-by I shall tell your Lordships why it is that Winchester College cannot be dealt with by the i5ill. By-and-by I shall explain to your Lordships why West- minster is dealt with upon a totally different footing from Eton ; and having done those things I shall expose, in the way of principle, what is attempted upon Eton, and show that it ought not to be done. Now,. in order to lay the ground for the case I have to submit to your Lord- ships, I must remind you that the Commission which was issued by Her Majesty included Eton, Winchester, Westiuinster, Charterhouse, 8t. Paul's, Merchant Taylors', Harrow, Rugby, and Shrewsbury, and that the Bill upon your Lordships' table deals out of those nine with only eight. I will tell your Lordships why you have not the ninth before you. Charterhouse, to begin with, is the case of a school for Avhich a special government and trust has been created, the school with a hospital constituting the whole objects and care of the governors, who are so constituted and exist only for the government of those institutions. They are not the beneficial owners of it, they are in the eye of the law, and in the eye of themselves, as a matter of duty, trustees. They are * trustees however, it would appear, not only for the school, but for the hospital. I mention it casually, for it is not worth dwelling ujjon except in connection with some things 1 shall have to say" afterwards, that the Commissioners, find- ing the hospital in the way, declared that it was not within the scope of their inquiry ; and yet we find in the schedule to the Bill that the new governing body is to have the hospital as well as the school. I should have expected, my Lords, to find it laid down in a clause of the Bill, to which I shall have to call your Lordships' attention, in the way of interpretation, that " school " meant " hospital." We shall find presently that '• school " means a great deal under that Jnterjn-etation Clause. But the Commissioners having declai-ed that the hospital was not within the scope of their inquiry, I find, nevertheless, that in the case of the Charterhouse, by way of postscript, it is stated that the new governors are to have the hospital as well as the school. That shows a slight deviation from that which seemed to be prescribed to the Commissioners by the authority under which they acted. I shall show you larger deviations as I go further ; but at present it is enough for me to say tliat the case of the Charter- house was the case of a trust ; that if the school that now is and the hospital had not existed, the trusteis and governors would not exist ; and therefore, thev and the school are inseparably mixed up together, and the one cannot go on without the other. Harrow is in a similar ])Osition ; there are trustees in that case, and it seems that they originallv had a sc^parate trust, like that of the hospital, but different in kind to the trust in the case of the Charterhouse ; they had a fund for the maint»Mian(;e of roads. Here you have a trust with which the Court of Chancery could deal : here you have a trust of the ordinary nature, where the trustees have no beneficiary interest, and where they exist merely for the subject which they are a))point( d to control. Rugby, again, is in the same ])osition, and there we are specially reminded that tiie constitution of the governing body is not the work of its founder, but of the ( 'om-t of Ctiancery and the Legislature. And Shrew s])ury, again, is in the same case. Therefore we have four of these schools which are beyond all doubt trusts, and uiere trusts, where the owner- ship of the jjroperty and the beneficial enjoyment of it do not go together. Then we conu^ to the St. Paul's and Merchant Taylors' schools. With re- spect to SI. Paul's the contention is this, that the property Ijclongs to the Mercers' (Jompany, subject only to an oi)ligation to make a particular contri- bution to the maintenance of the school. And that view of the case is so much respected by the Connnissiouers that, if 1 nnstake not, they proposed at first to exclude SF-LECT COMAIITTEE ON 7I1E PTBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.j 191 exclude St. Paul's schools wholly from the Bill ; but they have thought better ^.2d May iSC^. of that, and. probably for the purpose of uniformity, have put ia St. Paul's as well as some of the other school;^. Lord Lyttelfon.'] I hat is to say, the framers of the Bill have; the framers of the Bill are not the Commissioners, you know. Mr. Hope ScoU.] My Lords, 1 understood from its preamble that the Bill was to carry out the intentions of the Commissioners. Lord Z,j/llelto/i.] It is not our Bill. Mr. Hope Scolt.] It is not mine, my Lord. Chairman.'] It does not matter who the authors of the Bill were, if vou deal with the Bill as it is. Mv.Hope Scott.'] That is what I propose to do, my Lord : but I wnnder, if the framers of the Bill are different from the Commissioners, that the Merchant Taylors' School should have been wholly omitied ; but it is omitted, and it is omitted apparently upon the same ground that it was intended to omit fet. Paul's, and that St. Paul's is very leniently dealt with under the Bill. It was because the Merchant Taylors' Company with.stood the Commissioners, and declared that they were the owners of the property, and v.ould do what they liked with it ; and so valiantly did they behave as entirely to repulse the Commissioners, and 'even to frighten the framer of the Bill ; displaying a degree of valour which leads me to doubt whether the ordinary calculation as to the number of those gentlemen required to make a man is a correct one ; they seem to be the only beirgs, I dare not say men, who have successfully resisted the Commissioners, and escaped from the tire of the Bill. Now, my Lords, the four I have mentioned are evidently trusts ; the governing body, that is, the trustees, exist only for one object, the fulfilment of the ti'usts as regards those particular schools. Another of the nine, that is St. Paul's, is doubtful, and another, namely, the xMerchant Taylors', maintains its independence. Thus ycu see how the question of the tenure of property and the rights of property has come in at a very early stage in these proceedings, and you will learn further from me, what bearing that question of title and of property h.-.s upon the provisions of the Bill you propose to enact with regard to Eton. There are in all these cases changes proposed, which I think unwise, but which are comparatively slight ; they are changes in bodies, which the Court of Chancery probably might have changed, which Private Bills constantly have changed ; but they relate far more to slight modifications, unwise as I think them, of the trust bodies, than to atiy attacks upon the direct title to property such as is intended in the case of Eton. Let me distinguish between these cases of schools supported and governed by trust bodies and the case of collegiate bodies. Upon this subject we have an able and clear statement in the second volume, in the Appendix A., at page 3 of the second volume, under the head of " Notes by the Secretary." " The Col- lege of Eton, like those of Winchester and St. Peter's, Westminster, embraced • (taking the word in its original and m.ore extensive sense) many classes of per- sons ; some clothed with duties and authorities, some with duties only, others merely entitled to receive stipends or emoluments, and these of various kinds and in various degrees of subordination. An officer wlio was coiiductitins et remotivus would nevertheless be a member of the cellege in this sense, while his connection with it lasted, provided the statutes assigned him a definite position in it ; and he would be eniitled in common with the rest to appeal to the visitor if his rights were infringed. In every case there were certain principal members, a provost or warden and fellows, a dean and canons, or the like, in whom all the property of the college was vested, who had certain powers of government, and who alone were empowered to do all legal acts in the name of the college. This body of persons constituted the college in its narrower sense" (there are two meanings of the word college, as 1 shall have occasion to show you). " They were the college, in the eye of the law, being legally invested with all its proprietary rights and powers. But though this governing body were and are the legal owrurs of the college property, tliey held and now hold it subject to such duties as the statute s impose en them with respect to it, and to the claims on it which the statutes give to other members of the foundation. They (90.) aa4 are 192 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •2d May 1865. ^^^ absolute owners, subject to these statutory duties and claims. The duty of the governing body to administer the property according to the statutes is not a ' trust' in the technical sense of that word ; that is to say, it is not a trust the exe- cution of which can be enforced by u court of equity. It is not a trust, but it is a duty in the nature of a trust. This, and no more, was decided in the case of ' Whiston V. the Dean and Canons of Rochester,' /th Hare, .532. See also ' Attorney General v. Magdalen College, Oxford,' 10 Beavan, 402. The j)ower of enforcing- the due performance of this dutv, and therefore of determining the statutory rights of the different members of tlie foundation, belongs exclusively to the visitor, who may he compelled to act by mandamus, but from whose judg- ment there is no appeal." Lord Lyttelton.'\ Is there any difference whatever between this and an ordinary " trust," except the merely technical one that it is not a court of equity that can enforce it r Mr. Hope Scott.} The difference is the largest possible ; it is the difference between a trust and an ownership. Here there is the actual right of enjoyment of the property in the parties holding it, and the question of what is to become of the surplus is most material in these cases ; trustees can only apply it to the objects of the trust, but Ijeneficial owners, in the sense in which colleges are so, are entitled to the surpluses. There is no other object than themselves ; the question of distribution is a question of distribution among themselves, and the application so made is not an application to different objects than those of the founder. " The statutory claims of the various members of the foundation may, or may not, be confined to the particular sums allotted to them by the statutes. They may be entitled to these sums only, or to increased emoluments, in proportion to the increase of the college property, or in some other propor- tion. The only criterion is the intention of the founder, expressed in the, statutes, or fairly deducible from them. And that distribution is the most con- formable to law which most effectually carries out that intention." That is a clear practical synopsis of the law relating to the general position of the collegiate bodies, and relating specially to the College of Eton, to the College of Winchester, and to the College of St. Peter's, Westminster. That has been transfeiTcd to the pages of the Report, but by no means in so precise and pointed a manner as it is given in the notes of the Secretary. I do not find there that clear and decisive reference to the statutes of the founder, that ex- pansive character of the claims of different members of the foundation, with increase of property, or that finality of the judgment of the visitor which appear strikingly and clearly in these impartial notes by the secretary. M}- Lords, St. Peter's, Westminster, is a college just like Eton College ; it was once a chapter, but it is no chapter now ; it has got the title of Dean belonging to it, because it once was a chapter ; but in its present foundation it is simply a collegiate church like the collegiate church of Eton, and falls •within the same description as the secretary tells you that Eton falls under, and the same description as Winchester also falls under. All these are exempt , as regards their internal affairs from all jurisdiction but that of their visitors ; they are not within the Charitable Trusts Act ; they are, in that respect, all alike one to the other, and all unlike the case of ordinary trust schools or institutions ; but there has been a difference between them which has arisen I tliink accidentally rather than otherwise. The common lawyers have been pleased to say that " colleges," as a general rule, are lay foundations, and that remark, or rather that rule of theirs has, of course, from the difficulties of the case, been carried out very unequally. 1 can show your Lordships, and I shall have occasion to show your Lordsliips the great similarity between the statutes of Westminster and the statutes of Eton College as regards the general formation of the body ; but Westminster has been reckoned amongst ecclesiastical fouiulations, was the subject of inquiry by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and of regulaticm by the Act 13 k 11 Vict., wliile on the other hand, Eton and Winchester have been reckoned among the university col- leges, and have been legislated for by Parliament, Eton in the Cambridge TJuiversity Act of IH.'iG. and Winchester in the Oxford University Act of 1854. Now, my Lords, \\ inchester has been dealt with by that Oxford University .Act, and that is why I said that Winchester never could be seriously intended to SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 193 to be dealt with by tliis Bill, Winchester, in fact, not even applying to be heard ^ud May 1865. by counsf'l against it before j'Oiir Lordships, liccanse it was aware that tlie cast; must eventually fall by its own weight. 1 say Winchester lias been dealt with under the Oxford University Act, and you have in the very report of the Commissioners, which proposes to deal with Winchester u]ion the same footing as Eton in this liill, the following statement, which, 1 think, is al;solutely fatal to any further proceeding upon that score. I am not their counsel, but I am interested in showing you under what circumstances the only case to be dealt with in the same way as ours comes befon; your Lordships. It is at page 134 of the Report : " The College of St. Mary of Wincliester, near Winchester, com- monly called Winchester College, was founded in 1387. It originally consisted of a warden, 10 fellows, 70 scholars, cme head master, one usher or second master, three chaplains, three clerks, and Hi choristers. By an ordinance of the Oxford University Commissioners, which took effect in 18.j7, this consti- tution has been considerably modified ; the 10 fellowships are to be reduced, as vacancies occur, to six ; witn the income thus set at lil)erty the number of scholars is to be increased to 100, and 20 exhibitions are to be founded, not tenable with scholarships. No fellowship has becoine vacant since tiiis ordi- nance came into operation; there are still, therefore, 10 fellows and not more than 70 scholars ; but the college has found the means to elect several exhi- bitions, the annual payments to whom amounted in 1861 to 225 L" Earl of Derby.'] It is a matter of no consequence, but I think in point of fact one fellowship has lapsed, and the present number is nine ; but your argument is equally good nevertheless. Earl of Harrowby.'l And it has not been filled up. Mr. Hoi)e Scott.] The report goes on : " We have observed in our report on Eton that the statutes of that college were probably modelled upon those of Winchester, and bear a strong resemblance to them. An edition of the latter was published in 185.'i by the . Oxford Lhiiversity Commissioners. By an ordinance framed by the Commissioners, and approved by Her Majesty in Council, and which is placed, under the Act IJ ^ 18 Vict, chapter 81, on the same le\el in point of authority as the original statutes, many parts of these statutes were abrogated, and many new provisions introduced. Measures have been taken to digest the new matter, and so much of the old as remains unrepealed, into one code, and we have been informed that the completion of this only awaits the publication of our report. The warden and fellows are empowered, with the consent of the visitor and of the Queen in Council, to alter and amend the statutes from time to time." That work then, my Lords, which is professedly proposed to be done under this Bill with regard to Winchester has been in course of being done since the year 1855 downward:*; it only waits for its completion the furtlier lights to be afforded by this report. .'\nd yet Winchester is put into the Bill. I said at the outset that no one can believe that Winchester will be retained in the Bill ; if it is retained, then those apprehensions or those views which were enter- tained at Winchester probably will prove to be correct. They say, " It is our misfortune that Eton was modelled upon Winchester, because Eton must be reformed, and there are we — 'Mantua vce miserce nimiuin vicina Cretnona.^" In the Cambridge University Act Eton also stands there in the same position as the colleges of Cambridge (I can give your Lordships good reason why that should have been so, by-and-by), and it "has liad some of its statutes altered, and I am informed that it desired to have more of its statutes altered, but the time during which the Commissioners could act under the University Acts was limited, and though applications were made they have been unable to obtain that authority which they desired, and which Winchester actually has got. But I need not pursue that point just now. Your Lordships will observe from what I have said that in the case of collegiate bodies, there is a totally different tenure of property, there is a totally different tribunal, and there are totally different intentions to be observed from those of school trusts. You will observe also that of the three collegiate bodies which are included in the inquiry of the Commissioners and in the provisions of the Bill, the identity of foundation and of general principles (90.) B B having 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 32ct May 1865. having been acknowledged in all, one has been dealt with under the Cathedral Act, another has been dealt with under the Oxford University Act, and the third was included in the Cambridge University Act ; and you propose now to deal with the one which wa? dealt with under the Oxford University Act, and the one which was included under the Cambridge University Act, and partially dealt with under that Act under a new Bill relating to what ? To schools. Let me first call your Lordships' attention to Westminster. I will deal with the statutes of Westminster, although I could pursue it into its present con- dition under the alterations which have been made by the Cathedral Act ; but I am now upon the question of founders' intention, and the character of the institution. Under the statutes, Westminster has a dean, who is a priest ; 12 prebendaries, who are priests; a lector in theology ; 29 persons for divine service ; 40 grammar school boys, and 12 poor people. It has two prseceptores or schoolmasters for the instruction of the grammar school boys. These masters are appointed alternately by the Dean of Christchurch and the Master of Trinity. The 40 scholars are elected by the Dean of Westminster, the Dean of Christchurch, and the Master of Trinity. The Queen is visitor. Now, this case is dealt with in so peculiar a manner under the Bill (liut J think also under the Report ; I should be sorry to charge the one with any malfeasance of the other), when you come to contrast it with Eton, that I must trouble you with a few remarks upon the subject. I am told that St. Peter's, Westminster, has not petitioned against the Bill ; I can perfectly w ell understand that ; that college is wise enough to see the advantage it will get under the Bill, and it is also sensible enough to acknowledge the courteous manner in which it has been treated by the Commissioners, and the practical advantages which it will obtain without losing its authority over the school ; all this is well provided for. At page 159 of the Report we find, that " Westminster School is a grammar school attached, as in the case of many cathedral establishments, to the Collegiate Church of 9it. Peter, Westminster, and founded by Queen Elizabeth for the free education of 40 scholars," and so forth. " The government of the whole school, so far as 1 elates to the discipline, instruction, and ordinary school regu- lations, rests with the head master, subject, as respects the 40 scholars on the foundation, to the authority of the dean and chapter." Your Lordships are familiar with the expression " The governing body" throughout this Bill. It appears, then, that the dean and chapter are the governing body of the grammar school of St. Peter, Westminster, and the Queen is visitor. The Commissioners inquired into the state of matters connected with the school, and they find that there is not a great deal of money paid by the Dean and Chapter of Westminster for the maintenance of the school ; and they make a moderate suggestion to them that, instead of paying 7 1- 7 s. for tuition, and \7 I- 17 s. being paid by the parents, the chapter should pay a total of 31 /. 10 s. for each scholar ; and they say, " In thus recommending that the chapter should take upon themselves the whole cost of the tuition of the Queen's scholars, we do not feel called upon to pronounce any opinion as to whether a literal adherence to the statutes would not have justified, or even required, the adoption by them of that course in past times ; neither do we deem it necessary to decide whether the statutes, which are alleged never to have been confirmed by the Sovereign, are nevertheless of binding authority. Upon both points difference of opinion has existed, and may fairly exist. As regards the future, however, and for the piu'poscs of our inquiry, it will be sufficient to state that it appears to us consistent with at least the spirit of the statutes, that instruction in the prescribed branches of educa- tion shoidd be given gratuitously to the Queen's scholars. We may add, too, that we have the more satisfaction in making this recommendation, because we are at the same time recommending the abolition of the exclusive claim of Queen's scholars to the studentships and e.xhilutions. We shall furtlier recom- mend that the sum of 20/. per annum, and no moi-e, be charged to the parents of each Queen's scholar, such payment to cover the charges for matron, &c." Then they wind up in this way : " That the payments to be made on account of the school from the chapter funds should be increased to this extent, appears to us no unreasonable proposal, regard l)eing had to the close connection of the school with the ecclesiastical foundation." (The dean and chapter were the governing body of it). " And to the fact of the very large recent increase in the capitular SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 195 capitular corporate income, we find that in 1800 it was 48,000/., and in 18G1 22d May 1865. upwards of 60,000 Z." And tlie total additional payment to be made by the chapter suggested in this modest way was 912/. jier annum. Then they proceed with regard to the government of the school : " The government of the school absolutely as regards the town boys, and subject to the control of the dean and chapter as concerns the (Queen's scholars, rests, as has been stated, with the head master. It is unnecessary for us here to repeat the reasons on which we ground the opinion exjn'cssed in a former part of this Report, in favour, generally speaking, of the existence of a governing body of mixed character, who should deal with all matters not necessarily connected with instruction. Fully recognising the interest taken by the dean and chapter in the school, and justly appreciating the weight due to the fact of the statutory connection which has existed for centuries, we yet think that the general prin- ciples previously laid down on this subject should be judiciously, and with due qualifications, ap(ilied to Westminster. Here, as in man)" other instances, we think that benefit to the school will result if a lay element be introduced into the governing body, and we propose to make a recommendation to this effect. We must add, that the influence and means of v\seful action of that body will be largely increased if some part of the chapter estates, adequate to the support of the school, can be permanently transferred to it, and placed under its exclu- sive management and control. We have reason to hope that the latter arrange- ment will not be disagreeable to the chapter, and we are convinced that it will tend materially to the benefit of the school." Then they jn'oceed to speak about the buildings. Now, my [.ords, let vis turn to the Bill : Schedule 3 of the Bill deals with St. Peter's, Westminster, and it consists in this, a request, apparently assented to, that the Dean and Chapter of Westminster, the College of Westminster, will be good enough to hand the school out at the front door, to be newly dealt with u])on terms I will refer to presently ; and if tliat is done, and done in the same simple manner in which the request is made, the particular concerns of the college itself, the governing body, shall be no further inquired into.. That is practically what is proposed to be done bj^ the Bill. The school is to be taken out of the College of Westminster, and thus dealt with : it shall have a governing body, which " shall consist of the official and unofficial members hereinafter mentioned. The governing body shall be a body corporate, vmder the title of the Governors of St. Peter's College, Westminster, with a perpetual succession, and a common seal, having a capacity to hold lands v.ithout licence in mortmain." It goes on to say, " The official members shall be the following persons : the Dean and Canons of Westminster ;" I do not know exactly the number of Canons now ; it was to be reduced to six ; I do not know whether it has been by the Cathedral Act ; it was originally 12, then eight, and it was to be reduced to six. " The Dean and Canons of Westminster," one the Dean and six Canons, that makes seven; "the Dean of Christchurch, Oxford," who already has patronage in the school, that makes ei^ht, and " the Master of Trinity College, Cambridge," who already has patronage in the school, that makes nine. Then we come to six others, of whom two are to be elected by the general governing body, and four are to be named by Her Majesty. Now Her Majesty is the visitor; so that you have here a type of what might have been done in other cases, and a ]iroof of Ijow little the actual position of the school of St. Peter's, Westminster, is to be affected under the Bill ; for you find, that out of the 15 Commissioners, 11 (because the majority would be with the dean and canons, the Dean of Christchurch, and the Master of Trinity College) are to proceed from the present sources of authority connected with the school, and the Crow'n being visitor is to nominate four. Therefore the result is this— that the Dean and Chapter of Westminster have handed over the school to a guasi new governing body, and taken it back with the other hand, but taken it back under conditions very much more advantageous to themselves than those under which they hold it at this moment if the mode of inquiry which has been pursued with regard to Eton into the conduct and condition of the governing body was ever to be applied to them. My Lords, the way in which the property in question is to be managed is this : Section 25 says, " It shall be lawful for the Dean and Chapter of West- minster, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England, and the governing body (90.) B B 2 of 196 MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22d May 1865. of Westminster School" (being, in substance, the Dean and Chapter of West- minster over again),- " if they can agree, or, if not, then for any of those bodies, at any time before the 1st day of January 186/, to lay before Her Majesty in Council a scheme for vesting in the said governing body and their successors in fee simple such a portion of the chapler estates as may be adequate for the support of the school on a suitable scale, and also for vesting in them such portion of the chapter estates as are necessarily and exclusively connected with the school." Then, " if all the said bodies do not concur in a joint scheme, any one of them promoting a separate scheme shall forward a copy thereof to the said other body or bodies that do not concur therein, and every scheme promoted under the powers of this Act," &c., shall become a statute. So that what U done with regard to Westminster here is a nominal divesting of the dean and chapter of the school, and in respect of their readily yielding that, apparently, there is no further inquiry made as to the proportions which ought to exist between the payment of the scholars, or the cost of the scho- lars and the income of the canons ; they are set free from all these inquiries into the govei-ning body ; no change is to be introduced into the body itself ; the school is nominally taken away from them, and then practically given back to them ; and all difficult questions about property are to be settled amongst three nominally different bodies, who, in fact, are only two, and both of those bodies are interested in retaining the largest possible amount of the dean and chap- ter s revenues for the purposes to which they are already devoted. Now, when I tell your Lordships that a scholar under the statutes of Westminster was to have 3 I. 14 5. 2 d., and that the prebendaries, as they were then called, were to have 28 /. 5 *. a year, for the whole expenses, and that it appears from the evidence before the Commissioners that the scholars cost now about 3/ /. a head, and that the canons divide about 2,300 /. a year each, your Lordships will see that it was no slight advantage to get quietly rid of the school, especia,lly as no substantial power over the school was lost thereby, and leave it to them- selves and to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, both of whom are interested in keeping from the school as much as they can keep for the chapter, to settle a scheme upon which the endowment of the new governing body was to proceed. So much for Westminster. Bis/ioj) of Lojidon.'] Does that remark apply to the canons, whose incomes are fixed by Act of Parliament at 1,000 /. a year ? Mr. Hope Scott.] Yes ; 1 am well aware of what your Lordship says ; but the case as regards the question of property is this : the Ecclesiastical Com- missioners, if I mistake not, take the surplus above 1,000 /. a year, so that practically it is either the Ecclesiastical Commissioners or the canons who are interested in tiie property. As between the school and them, it is immaterial who divides the money- On the one side there are the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners and the dean and chapter, and on the other side is the school ; and it is to be settled by agreement betvv'een the Ecclesiastical Commissioners prac- tically and the dean and chapter how much the school shall have by way of endowment. I think I have not misconstrued the Bill ? Lord Lyttelton.'] That is quite correct. Mr. Hope Scott.] Then, my Lords, I think there will not be much robbery of Peter to pay Paul. Let me now call your Lordships' attention more directly to the case of Eton. In the Commission some popular language was used, such as this, " To inquire into tlie nature and application of the endowments, funds, and revenues belong- ing to or received by the hereinafter mentioned (colleges, schools, and founda- tions, namely, the College of the Blessed IVLary of Eton, near Windsor (com- monly called Eton College), St. Mary's College, Winchester (commonly called Winchester College), tl'ie Collegiate School of St. Peter, Westminster, the Hospital I'ounded in Charter House," and so forth. It is quite plain that those words relating to Eton are popularly used ; and indeed the Commissioners, I see, in their reports speak of the school at Eton as being commonly known as Eton College ; and it is no doubt in the popular sense often called that. Your Lordshijjs who have been at Eton may remember that there was a certain amount of pride in our belonging to a college instead of belonging to a school; and I may perhaps be pardoned for repeating some lines which showed the feeling SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [u.L.] 19/ feeling upon tliat s-ubject. They are not veiy ele^^'lnt, and not very polite, 22d May iSlij. but still there is notliiug absolutely wrong in them. They are these — " Ye little boys of Harrow Sfho(jl, Who have so little knowledge, Ye piny not cricket, but the fool, With men of Eton College." There is no doubt that that was a prevalent feeling amongst the boys ; they liked to talk of the " college." Those were oppidans who liad nothing to do with the college, as little to do with the college as the fellows of Mton had to do with the school ; but nevertlieles.s, the term College was (ised by the (,'om- missioners as meaning the school ; schools, an;l schools only, being intended to be referred to by them. But when we come to the iJill, of coiir-e more strict language was necessary, and it appears that the conveyancer having got safe through his preamble, you find that he had not caught everything at Eton which it was necessary for him to catch in order for him to carry out the reeonunendations of the Commis- sioners. He seems to have proceeded upon the old principle of catching the hare before you make the soup ; he found he had not done it in his preaml^le, for that related to schools, and it related, above all things, to the main objects of the founder (we will pass by that for the present). It was awkward to have a preamble about a school, and to wish to deal with a college, but he was equal to the occasion. If you turn to section 2 of the Bill, you will see what he did, and that is, in fact, the Bill as regards Eton ; section 2 says " ' school ' includes, in the case of ]".ton and Winchester, Eton College and Winchester College." riiis, my Lords, was a toler;!bly good haul for one small clause, and that an interpretation clause, in the Bill, yet that is the clause of the Bill which makes Eton subject to it. The Commission was for schools ; there is no doubt that the technical separation of the schools and the college was easy. The conveyancer had talked about schools in his preamble ; but he wanted, or at least those who inspired him (who they were we know not} wanted, something much more extensive than schools, so he resorted to an idle but convenient method of modern conveyancing, and said the word " school " means " college " in two cases, in the cases only of Eton and Winchester, not in the case of Westminster. The conveyancer has done his work neatly and well. He had his instruc- tions, and with all the difficulties of his preamble against him he has overcome them, and overcome them neatly ; but the Commissioners, not having the same summary mode of proceeding, appear to have started at a considerable disad- vantage in dealing with the question of what was school and what was college. At page 57 of their report we find them in their difficulty : " Eton school is a school attached to a collegiate foundation, the legal title of which is 'The College of the Blessed Mary of Eton, near Windsor ;' an inquiry into the school would logically therefore be subordinate to an inquiry into the college; but it will be more convenient for the purposes ol this report, and more agree- able to the importance which the school has actually acquired in relation to the college, to treat the two as distinct heads, assigning to each head such parts of the whole subject as most naturally range themselves under it. The distinction, however, is roughly practicable" (at Westminster there is a total separation in a precisely similar manner of the same foundation), " the two branches of the subject being necessarily entwined with each other." At Westminster the dean and chapter had the general superintendence of the school, with a head master under them. At Eton, as we shall see, the provost only had the general superintendence of the school. Under the statutes the fellows have absolutely no necessary connection with the school at all. " Some only of the masters of the school are officers of the college, and some only of the scholars are members of it. Some of the members of the college are and some are not connected with the school ; and the site finances and government of the one are inseparably n ixed up v^ith those of the other." Therefore we will begin with the school, although, logically, we ought to begin with the college ; and accordingly, my Lords, the Bill begins with more effect, with not so many struggles as I will show you there are in other portions of tlie report with the school, and puts the college into the Interpretation Clause. (90.) B B 3 As 198 MINDTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22d May 1865. As the Comuussioners were obliged to do violence to logic in their first attempt to deal with Eton, perhaps j^our Lordships will bear with me while I give you a short sketch of the foundation. Henry VI. founded both that and King's (College, Cambridge. In the statutes of each he recites the founda- tion of both. The difference between them in studies was simply what you might expect, grammar being taught at Eton up to the age of 18, and after that the higher branches of learning at Cambridge. Both were directed to divine worship, as well as to the cultivation of grammar, or the liberal arts. The identity of and the differences between the two nppear thus : the king is anxious to have it understood that, though situated in diffi rent places, they come of one root and flow from one fountain, and are not different in sul)stance,; and therefore their effect or operations ought not naturally to be different the one from the other. At Eton there was a provost, there were 70 poor scholars, there were 10 priest fellows, there were 10 chaplains, thei'e were 10 clerks, there were 16 choristers, reduced by circumstances to some number which I need not dwell upon at the moment, and there were two masters, just as at Westminster, for the education of the 70 boys; and there were 13 poor men. At King's College there were one provost, 70 poor scholars, 1 chaplains, six clerks, and 1 6 choristers, but there were no priest fellows. There was no such class as the priest fellows, the " presbeteri locii," at Eton, and they therefore dis- tinguish, and distinguish in a marked manner, the Eton foundation from the Cambridge foundation ; the difference arising naturally enough from this — that the scholars themselves being at Eton onl}^ at a comparatively young age, they could not make permanent fellows of them for the attention to the church and to divine worship. Accordingly the founder appoints, as a separate institution, which is not to be fovmd in King's College, Cambridge, the number of 10 priest fellows, who are to be perpetual at Eton, while at Cambridge there is no similar body, the chaplains being removable, and not forming part of the corporate body. Now, my Lords, so careful was the founder about this particular body at Eton, that he gave it as a direction that if" bad times came on (and bad enough they were for some time during his life), necessitating reductions, the reductions should be in a certain order, and that seven of the scholars should be put down before one fellow was reduced. And tliis body, the Provost and Fellows of Eton, are the College of Eton. They are in the eye of the law the body seised with the property, entitled absolutely to it, subject to their own statutory obligations ; and in the perfonnance of their statutory obligations they are at present pro- tected from the interference of all tribunals except the tribunal of their own visitors. 1 have now given to your Lordships a short account o( this foundation, in addition to which perhaps I may say, that there is not upon these statutes a trace of those fellows having anything to do with the school, except in cases of extreme want of discipline calling for extreme penalties either upon their brother fellows or upon the school, in which case they assist the provost. Apart from that we have not in the whole course of the statutes a single duty signed to them in connection with the school. I will now turn, reminding your Lordships simply of the breach of logic with whicli the Commissioners professedly start in their report upon Eton, to some further passages in which I think you will have to come to the conclusion that that is not the only fault ; for I find, my Lords, that the way in which the position of the fellows is handled is one which, if I must speak plainly, I think is not distinguished l)y candour. 1 am sorry for it, I do not know who drew this report, but I am bound to deal as an advocate with what I see before me. I will read from page 63 of the report : " The duties of the provost are those ordinarily assigned to the head of a collegiate foundation. He has to exercise a general siiperintendence, to take care that each )nember of the college fulfils his statutory obligations, to see that the college property is well administered and the revenues duly applied. He is entrusted with the college seal, must be present (unless inevitably prevented, by sickness or otherwise) at all college meetings on important business, has a votc^ in elections to vacant fellowships and to the offices of head and lower master, and has the sole appointment of subordinate officers of the college. He exercises, as will hereafter appear, over the management of the school a control which is very extensive and minute. He SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. l] 199 lie is cu- o^cio Hector of Eton, but is not instituted to the care of souls within a^A May 1865. the parish," and so forth. These arc matters which I will deal witli afterwards. They go on to say, " The fellows have a deliberative voice in all matters of importance affecting the college property. They autUt the college accounts, and tlie concurrence of a majority of a college meeting (four, with the provost or vice-provost, being a quorum) is required for leases and sales of the college property. Out of their number are chosen annually the vice-provost, the senior and junior bursar, precentor, sacrist, and librarian. The duties of the bursars are, to receive the rents and superintend the expenditure ; of the precentor, to be responsible for the colleicc choir, their regularity of attendance and general behaviour ; and of the sacrist, to take charge of the chapel, the l)ooks and plate for the altar. The ^fellows have no regular share in the government of the school, and no duties in connection with it, except as joint guardians (with the provost) of the college property, and as electors ('.\ith the provost) of the head and lower mastersj and, except in the very rare case of a King's scholar com- mitting a grave moral offence calling for expulsion, or for some punishment little less severe." That is the way in which the first statement with regard to the fellows is given us by the report. Now, let me show from pages 101 and 102 liow they are brought into that position which enabled ihe conveyancer, or enabled those who desired ihe Bill to be drawn to instruct the conveyancer to make them a school : " The most important powers at present vested in the provost and fellows are those of electing and removing the head master, and of exerting a general superin- tendence over the school." Your I>ordshi|)S heard from page 63 how little they had to do ; they had no regular share in the government of the school, and no duties in connection with it. Then it goes on: "The first of these belongs, as has ijeen stated, to the provost and fellows jointly, the second to the provost alone, wlio exerts it, however, in practice with the advice and assist- ance of the fellows." They are gradually being driven into the vortex. " The provost and fellows, as at present constituted ;" they have now been united by the fact that the provost consults the fellows-, who have no duties in connection with the school, and having been thus united after the declaration beforehand that they had no duties in connection with the school, the report says, " The provost and fellows as at present constituted, are not, in our opinion, a body altogether well adapted for the exercise of either of these powers. The electors of the head master of Eton should, by the numbers, the mode of their appointment, and the position they hold in the public view, be absolutely secured from the intrusion and even the suspicion of personal and local influences, which can never be the case with a few men intimately connected with one another, all of one pro- fession, and of whom all were educated and the majority have spent most of their lives within the walls of one school. Nor can it be beneficial to any school, as it has certainly not been beneficial to Eton, that its education and discipline should be exclusively controlled by a small number of retired masters who cannot but have some bias, not the less real because they may be un- conscious of it, against any serious change in the system under which their own lives have been passed, and with the practical working of which they have ceased to be familiar." They go on to say, " These considerations point, in the first place, to an increase of the number of the governing body " v(they have been brought at last under this term), " in the second, to changes in the mode and conditions of election into it. If the number of fellowships is to be largely increased, it is clear that some at least of them must be without emolument. This presents, however, no difficulty. The duties which will be attached to a fellowship will demand, it is true, especially at first, some time and attention, but they will not be really onerous ; they will not require residence on the spot, and men, we feel assured, will be easily found to whom the distinction itself, and the interest and importance of the services they will be enabled to render to the school will be ample recompence." Then we have, as I say, not in a> logical manner, brought the fellows, who have no duties in connection with the school, and no regular sh;ire in the government, by being seen talking to the provost, into the condition of becom- ing co-governors of the school, and having been made so, they are told that they are not fit governors of the school. But that is not all ; we then find a still stronger expansion of this same way of proceeding : " The fellowships, hovv- (90.) B B 4 ever, 200 MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22d May 1865. ever, were designed not only to supply a governing body for the poUcgc, but to provide a maintenance for studious men.'' And then we have opened out that view of rewards and decor.itions for literature and science upon wliich I shall have to address your Lordships in another part of my remarks. This is the way in which, on the one hand, the conveyancer, by an interpreiation clause, on the other hand, the Commissioners, I must be excused for saying, by a kind of legerdemain, liave made these poor innocent fellows, who have nothing on earth to do with the government of the school, because the provost now and then spoke to them and aske;! their opinion, into the governing body, and having set up their r.ine-pins, have immediately set to work to bowl them down again ; I am sorry to say that is to my mind so very clear that I am almost afraid I may be wrong in it, and yet I have traced it step by step ; and from an examination of the statutes I can assure your Lordships most distinctly, not only that they have no government of the school given to them, but more than that, they were not intended to be what is here called studious men ; they were to be siifficienter literati, learned enough to read the Latin Avhich they had to read, and being thus qualified to conduct divine worship to Almighty God, for which purpose they were appointed by the founder, and to remain there per- petuall}'. Now, turning away from tliat question for a moment, let us see how the Bill stands with regard to the rest of the foundation, that foundation being this : — There was provision for /O scholars ; there was provision for a provost, with general duties and general powers as regards the whole establishment, includ- ing the schoolmasters ; there were seven fellows (1 am speaking now of the present state in which the numbers are found), three conducts, 10 lay clerks, 12 choristers, and 10 bedesmeu, in all 42 persons; you have, therefore, 42 persons who, if you except tlie connection established by the report of the fellows with the school, have, under the statutes, absolutely nothing to do with the school ; in fact, you have only three who have ; those are the two masters and the provost, who has control over the two masters, and has the general superintendence of them as of all the other meml)ers of- the society ; this, therefore, is the institu- tion which, by the interpretation clause, is to be made a school of. My Lords, I have endeavoured to trace, though not so fully as I might if I were not afraid of wearying your Lordships, the way in which, so to speak, they have stalked these poor fellows. They begin at a distance, illogically not a})- proaching them ; they then take the school first, and then by degrees they get nearer and nearer, till at last the Bill comes out against them on the footing that they are not only governors of the school of Eton, but very naughty, bad governors of the school of Eton, and must be iramediatel)^ changed. But they are not satisfied with that. 'When the Connnissioners have got in, j-ou see what their dispositions are. In the first place, they are going to have literature and science piovided for at Eton, as your Lordships are aware. I shall have occasion to point it out more hereafter. The 7iew governing body in all main features is not to be a literary and scientific body at Eton ; but the stipendiary fellowships are. The slipendiary fellowships are to have that mark and distinction confeiTcd ujjon them of being the place the Commissioners propose for literary ami scientific men. " It is not possible " (say the Commissioners), " nor perhaps desirable, that literature and science should offer to men who dedicate their lives to them prizes equal to those which may be gained by the pursuit of an active profes- sion ; but it is a public advantage that some places of honour, competence, and leisure should exi.>t " (thcj^e are the places of the poor fellows who were to be siiffi- cientcr literati), " to wliichsuchmen may look lorwardas the rewards of intellectual labour. Men of this stamp, interested by their own habits and pui'suits in the advancement of education, acquainted with the progr(>ss of literature and sci- ence and of enlightened public ojnnion, and I'esiding during part of the year at Eton, may be expected to form a valuable element in the governing body, and to exei't a most useful influence on the direction of the studies of the school. We have only to add, that in order to render fellov\shii)s really available for this ))ur|)ose, it is necessary that the field of selection shoukl be wiile. We shall propose, therefore, that a moderate income shall be attached to a certahi number of the fellowships, the hoklers to be chosen indifferently from men who have distinguished themselves in any branch of literature or science, or who have done long and eminent service in the educational work of the school." They SELECT COMMITTEE ON THK I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ 11. L. | 201 They seem to have repented ahriost of havhiji; rewarded the old Eton masters. 2 2d May 1865, " Such service is, in effect, a service rendered t(j literature." They save them- — T' selves from any indiscreet generosity to the old masters of the school by pointing out that l)y teaching boys grammar they have served literature. They then proceed : " That such a body should be wholly self-elected is not desirable. M'e believe that the dignity as well as the; interests of the college would be best consulted by vesting the appointment of a portion of its members in the Oown ; though itmitrht b(! objectionable to give the Crown the right of nominating to the stipendiary fellowships." Then they go on to de- scribe what the fellows nominated l)y the Crown should be, and then they speak of the provost : " We sec no advantage in requiring that he should be in Holy Orders. He fulfils, as provost, no spiritual charge, and, although he has hitherto held the rectory of Eton, the duties have, in fact, been performed by the conducts. Some of the provosts who have shed the greatest lustre on the college, though their election was irregular, were, as we have already ob- served, laymen. The nomination being vested, as we think it ought to be^ in the Crown, and the office being endowed with a fixed income, sufficient • to support its dignity, it would be an advantage both to the college and to the school that the area of choice should be very ample. The parish of Eton should be constituted a separate vicarage ; " and then they say, " that the livings in the gift of Eton College have hitherto been treated as private patronage," and so forth. So that by the process of making the poor fellows into governors, and having made them into governors saying that they are not only governors, but bad governors, and that their places ought to be filled by people distinguished in literature and science, the Commissioners have got quite within the very centre and focus of the whole estabhshment, and, being there, they redistribute the fellowships ; they propose to alter the qualification of the provost, to give that appointment to the Cx'ovin, to dismiss the parish of Eton into a separate vicarage, and to newly regulate the livings in the gift of Eton College ; and they do all that on the one slender plea and pretence that they have found something which they can call the governing body of a school in the fellows of Eton College. Having, by the process I have explained to your Lord- ships, made the fellows out to be a governing body, they take possession of their property, as if they were malefactors as well as bad governors. Let me call your Lordships' attention to another part of the Bill which I have not so much dwelt upon hitherto. Ic is that recital in the preamble which speaks of the duty of carrying into effect the " main objects of the founders." Let me point out to your Lordships the consistency of this Bill with the main objects of the founder. Henry the Sixth, by the Charter of 1442, gave the advowson of Eton to the college, with a right with the proper consents to make it a collegiate church, and with a special provision that they need not endow a vicarage. In the statute it is laid down that the provost is to be a priest, and to have the ('ure of souls in the eoUegiate church, which includes both the college and the parish. Then comes this Bill for proposing to create a vicarage and to make a lay provost : the alteration as regards the provost being a layman being simply because it is thought that it will open a wider field, and more especially to the Crown, the Crown being the party to whom under the Bill the patronage of the provost is to be given. There is indeed, my Lords, one reason given for that, which I think your Lordships will hardly be carried away with. Lord Lyttcltoii.] The Bill does not make a lay provost. Mr. Hope Scotl.] I mean to say that whereas he must be a clerical provost now, it enables the Crown to appoint a lay provost, and inasmuch as the Crown probably has more lay claimants to patronage than ecclesiastical, it is not unhkely that in the course of events a layman might get in there. Earl of Derby.'] I am not so sure upon that point. Mr. Hope Scutt.l 1 do not know, 1 am sure, how the fact is about the claimants for patronage. But no doubt the Crown will have to be careful in its selection ; for observe what is required, according to Mr. Johnson, a gentle- man whose name appears more frequently than any other name, I think, in the Report of the Commissioners, so frequently that I thought it must have been (90.) C c a posthumous 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIiEN BEFORE THE aad May 1865. a posthumous work of the great lexicographer that was being quoted, until I became acquainted with his designation : " Mr. Johnson would prefer ' a statesman or a man of letters.' He thinks that a provost of distinguished position and high attainments, whose mind had not been devoted during the greatest part of his life to critical scholarship and the work of teaching, and who might be expected to exercise au ample and varied hospitalit5% would be most useful and welcome to the school, and not the less so should he happen to be a layman." It is therefore to be a lay provost, but with a French cook. Your Lordships know how much of this Rejiort deals with diet, and I think Mr. Johnson must have apprehended the possibility of a provost who gave nothing but leg of mutton. Accordingly he refers to diet, and says the table should not only be ample, but it should be varied. That is the evidence upon which the Provost of Eton is to be unfrocked ; there being another passage which I have already referred to, and in which I think the Com- missioners say simply that they see no advantages in requiring that he should be in H0I3' Orders. I have called your Lordships' attention to the recital in the Preamble about the objects of the founder. The founder had a reason, and saw an advantage in having the provost in Holy Orders. Surely his opinion, if it is simply with a view to a particular mode of teaching the inhabitants of Eton, is as much entitled to consideration as that of the Commissioners. He desired that the provost should be a priest in Holy Orders ; he desired that he should be the head or rector of tiie Collegiate Church of Eton. But, upon such evidence as I have read to your Lordships, and which 1 am really ashamed to have submitted to you, you are asked to make him a layman ; that is to say, to make it possible for the Crown to appoint a layman, that being distinctly contrary to the founder's will. And you are asked, for that purpose, to annul the rectorial character of an active kind of the provost, and to substitute a vicarage instead, both matters having been contemplated by the founder, and tleliberately passed over by him. My Lords, let us go next to the question of the election of the provost. We have the statutes upon the subject, which are express. Under the statutes of King Henry the Sixth, the Royal Founder, the vice provost, and the fellows were to elect the provost upon a vacancy. So little did he contemplate his ov?n successors taking advantage of the patronage, that if the vice provost and fellows failed to appoint a provost, the appointment lapsed to the Bishop of Lincoln. Now this patronage is given by the Bill to the Crown ; and that on the ground that the Crown from time to time has invaded the rights of the college under the statutes, and has often been successful, although sometimes it is admitted to have failed. ]\Iy Lords, none who have ever made a study of the history of ecclesiastical foundations and of colleges in the 1 7th century, can be ignorant that these proceedings of the Crown were frequent, and were almost universal. It required no Crown foundation ; it required nothing but the fact that there was a piece of patronage to be got, to make the Crown interfere. And it is upon those precedents, as it would appear, that the Commissioners desire, and the framers of the Bill seek, to contradict the statutes of the founder; to take away the patronage from where it is now vested ; and, having changed the nature of it, as I have already pointed out to your Lordships, to vest it in the Crown. Lord LytteUon.'\ How long ago is it since an appointment was made in any other way than by the Crown ? Mr. Hope Scott.] I think it has hardly ever been made by the Crown. The Crown nominees have often been adopted. Lord Lytteltcn.'] I mean practically f Mr. Hope Scott.] As I say the Crown nominees have often been adopted; but the P.ill professes to adhere to the intentions of the founder; that was the point I was arguing. Let me now show your Lordships upon what evidence this is proj)Osed, " The right of electing th(^ provost" (says the Report at page 61) "is by the statutes vested in the fellows, and if not (^xcrciscd by them within a certain time, lapses to the visitor. In ])ractice, however, the fellows usually elect a person previously nominated by the Crown. We have been unable to ascertain when or how this practice arose. It is beUeved, however, that Henry the Sixth, as founder, claimed and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS HILL. [ll- L.] 203 and exercised in his lifetime a power of nomination; there is evidence ot its 22d May 1865. having been exerted, sometimes in favour of persons not dulv (jualitied by the Tudor and Stuart Sovereigns ; and a series of Royal letters of recommenclation from the reign of Charles II. to the present time, is stated to be in the possession of the college, liy the college it is asserted to l)e a usurpation ; and on two occasions during the last 20 years the fellows have elected without waiting for a nomination On the death of Provost Goodall the Crown recommended Dr. iJodgson, who had not then taken the degnie of Bachelor of Divinity, and who was therefore not qualified ; and the fellows disregarding the letter, chose the present Bishoj) of Lichfield. Dr. Lonsdale, however, declined to accept the office, and Dr. Hodgson, having in the meanwhile acquired the necessary qualification was ultimately elected in his place. I'he election of Dr. Hawtrey was completed before the Royal letter in his favour reached Eton. These cases from their special circumstances, are inconclusive as precedents, since in both of them the person who actually became provost was the Crown's nominee. They ])roved that the fellows have asserted their statutory claim to a free election ; they do not ])rove that the Crown has acquiesced in that claim or abandoned its own. Sir J. Coleridge states in his evidence that, if the college chose to disregard a nomination, the Crown would have no legal power of enforcing it, and that dis- obedience v4'ould entail no statutory or otiier penalty. It should be added that in tlie case of King's College, Cambridge, where the election statute and the original practice were the same as at Eton, the claim of the Crown (which had nominated Sir Isaac Newton) was in 1689 resisted by the college, and after long dispute and much argument was abandoned. It is evidently desirable that this question should be set at rest. ' I venture,' says Mr. Johnson, ' to suggest that no more really important measure can be recommended by the Commissioners than a legislative settlement of all doubts as to the right of the Crown to appoint freely to the provostship.' " Thus, your Lordships are asked to sanction what, referring to the will of the founder, you cannot doubt to be a usurpation, and which at any rate is so doubtful that it could not be enforced against the college, the proposal being simply to vest by statutory enactment in the Crown, patronage which the founder by his statutes vested in the rest of the college. I now proceed to another of the principal points dealt with by the Bill. I have already referred to the fellows who were originally to be 10 in number, and never to be reduced by one until there had been a previous reduction of the scholars. There being 10 fellows originally, and there being 70 scholars, it required a tenth part of the scholars to be reduced before one felluw was reduced. Now, the Bill proposes to reduce the real fellows in the sense of the founder, to five ; that is to say, the stipendiary fellows are to be only five. It substitutes for university degrees, and for priests' orders, a quahfication which I must discuss in detail, and which I will not further dwell upon here. Then, having reduced the real fellows of the college from seven to five, it proceeds to create nine honorary fellows without any distinct qualification at all, except that in the case of a Crown nomination by which that number is partly made up, they must be graduates of Oxford or Cambridge. Those nine honorary fellows are to act with the five stipendiary fellows ; in other words, instead of the old college at Eton, which has subsisted and been known to the law for 400 years, and more, you are to have a new body, made up partly of honorary members, partly of stipendiary members, partly of residents, and partly of non-residents, partly of men of distinction in literature and science, partly of laymen, and partly of clergymen, and to this new body are to be transferred under the clauses of the Bill, all the property, rights, &c. of the college, whether they are to be governed by a Crown provost or not, I can hardly make out, for the whole matter becomes so complex and difficult, that it is scarcely within my power to say what will be the condition of that body if these changes are carried out. At present, the members of the college, the provost and fellows, are the owners of the property, and are all directly interested in that property, and they are subject to a visitor. When you add nine fellows to the body, not externally, because that is not it, when you put into the corporation, for that is what the Bill, as far as it can be understood upon this subject proposes to do, nine fellows, who are not interested in the property, yet are to govern the property, it is very hard to see, unless Parlia- ment takes good care upon the subject, how we shall escape this, that Eton (90.) c c 2 being 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22(1 May iSe-^ being now a college, subject to a A-isitor, shall become an institution in which ' one portion of the body is trustee for the other portion. This body, my Lords, is to exercise all the new rights given liy the Act to the governing body, and all this without a single reference in the whole course of the Bill to the existing ])ower of the visitors of Eton College. The word " visitor "' does not occur from end to end of the Bill, and yet it is a Bill that on the face of it professes some regard for the founder's principal intentions. If the founder had one tiling which he laboured more than another, it was to IJreserve the special visitation which he established by his statutes. He might have claimed it for himself, as founder. He gave it to the Bishop of Lincoln and to the Archbishoji of Canterbury, but he made it different from an ordinary visitation. The visitor appointed by him comes distinctly and plainly under that category of visitors of whom an old writer thus said, that the visitor stands in the very place and stead of the founder. I am perfectly aware that this visitorial power, in the sense originally intended by the statutes, has fallen into abe)'ance ; and that, I suppose, accounts for there being no reference to it in the Bill, although it appears in the evidence of Dr. Goodford that, whenever any matters are in doubt upon the statutes, the opinion of the visitor is taken upon them. Now, my Lords, there is no question about this ; that the right of visitation intended originally in these ecclesiastical statutes was a far more active and a far more effective instrument than it has been in the hands of any visitor since the time of Archbishop Laud. Archbishop Laud knew what a visitor was, and what he should and could do ; and not only what he could do, but more than he could do. That is plain from the ordinances which are found scattered throughout both universities and colleges, and many other places. Lord Wrnttlcsky.] I do not understand that the visitor's power is taken away by this Bill ? Mr. Hope ScolL] He has no power, I think, under this Bill to interpret the Act of Parliament. He can interpret the statutes, but he has not a jilace iu the Bill. I'here is a power given to the new governing body to make regula- tions of so extensive a character, which are to have the power of an Act of Parliament, that 1 think they might abolish the visitor entirely, under the powers given by the Bill. It may be an omitted case, but I must deal with what is put before me by my clients. 1 he visitor is never alluded to, for good or evil, in the Bill. Earl of Harrowby^ Who is the visitor now, since the change of diocese t Mr. Hope Scott.'] The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of Lincoln. Earl of Harrowby.] The Bishop of Lincoln stili retains it, then r Mr. Hope Scott.'] There is a question with regard to the Bishop of Oxford. Lord Lyttelton.] That is not material, I think ? Mr. Hope Scott.] No, my Lord, I am passing that over. Earl of Harrowbij.] The Bishop of Lincoln claims it I Mr. Hope Scott.] The Bishop of Lincoln claims it as diocesan. What little attention I have been able to give to that clause pretty well satisfies me that, although those who would have been the ordinary visitors, that is to say, in the sense in which there is an ordinary or visitor of all ecclesiastical insti- stitutions, are made the visitors in this case, yet they are made visitors in a special and particular niaiuicr ; they have no power, for instance, to cite the jn-ovost and fellows out of the colk'gc ; they have no power to exercise visita- tion by substitutes of a particular kind, and to look into all the books, and so on ; but as I am not here arguing the question between the Bishop of Oxford and the Bishop of Lincoln, 1 thought it was enough for me that one or other of those jurisdictions was intended by the ibunder to be the exclusive jurisdiction to whicli the college was to be subject. Clia'iriiKin.] We liad a statement made to us upon that subject, but, of course, we were not able to give; an opinion upon it. Mr. Hope Scott ^ It is an entire disiegard of the e.vistence of this, which was SELECT COMMITTEE ON" THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS J!1LL. [ll.L.] 205 was one of two portions of the founcU^r's institution, which seems to me, if I sad May iSCJ.';. am to choose among the hU)ts in tlie i5ill, about one of the worst. The whole law of England is constantly occupied in dwelling upon the visitor as expressing the mind of the founder ; and although he does not do it now-a-days by visita- tion, he does it by interpretation, and on appeal, and at any moment he could do it by visitation. If there be any desuetude, or any lapse of power, surely it would be more philosophical and more reasonable to set in motion de novo the founder's own chosen jurisdiction, than to set to work under an Act of Parliament which, ignoi'ing the visitor altogether, would, some fine morning when he woke uji, give him a totally different kind of body to visit, some of Avhom would not even be capable of receiving his visit unless they liked, because they are not bound to be resident. ?v'ow, let me point out, and I do this with great earnestness, the great mistake in principle which has been made upon this subject, a mistake iu principle, 1 mean if the real improvement of Eton is what you intend, If this Bill means that you will per j as d nefas make a certain number of new jdaces for men dis- tinguished for their attainments in literature and science, then I have nothing more to say. But if you are going to observe in any degree the intentions of the founder ; if you are anxious really to improve the Institution, let me point out that it can be done at present. There are very few instances in which you ■would not have found the proper power of visitation as it exists at this moment, and in its crippled form sufficient to carry out for the chief recommendations of the Report. Let me take the case of an increase of revenue. This is what appears in the statutes. I refer now to the 8th statute which lays down the duties of the provost : " Ea vcro ipicE residua fucrint et excrescent, procuret el faciat ad Incre- mentuvi dlcti Regalis Collegii JideUter conservarL" Then again you will find similar language at page 500 of Heyward's book, " Ad incrementum dicti Regalis Collegii et commodum fideliler conservari.^'' Under those words I will undertake to say that the visitor could order the arrangements for the distribution of every penny of money arising by way of surplus, after meeting the wants of the original foundation. It is plain that these words are doubtful ; here is an increinentum ; what does it mean r Here is advantage to the college ; how shall it be obtained ? There are no plain directions on the face of it. Then the visitor can expound it, and the visitor's expounding is final. He is the founder when he expounds. Your Lordships have already I think had your attention called to the point of the reduction in the numbers in case of bad times. In like man- ner the visitor could direct the number of the fellows to be increased as part of the intention of the founder, and the whole question of surplus property would be disposed of in that manner. Again, upon a subject which I can quite understand is one upon which considerable differences of opinion prevail, especially between teachers of schools and governors of schools, namely, the relations of the teachers to the governors of the school, upon which there is a variety of different opinion to be found in the evidence, and referred to in the Report, let me show your Lord- ships what the visitor can do about that : Statute 14 relates to the headmaster, who is to instruct the scholars of the college and choristers, and those who come from any part of England to the grammar school to learn grammar ; he is to instruct them thus : " In scientid grammaticce diligenter et assidue iiislruat et infor- viet ac ei.i diliyenter intendat ; ijysuruingue vitaju et mores, niaxime scholariinn et ckuristanim ejusdein nostri collegii gramntaticam addiscoHium mature et altente supervideat, et eos circa eorum doctrinam desides negligentes, seu alias delinquentes, absque persomirum, acceptione sen alia partialitate quacuiiique corripiaf ac dehite q)uniat et casticjet ; " tliat is the power given to the master with regard to the boys. The power of the provost is to l::e found only in general description ; it is in the second statute, in the eighth statute, and in the seventh statute, and is simply a general power of governing, superintending, and rendering active in their duties all the different members of the society ; but I will just call vour Lordships' attention to the words in order that you may see that if there arises a fair question between the head master and the provost under the statute as to the bounds of the authority of each, that is a question that the visitor can decide; the provost is to be pre-eminent and preside over the "priest, fellows, and master, niformatori scholiarum in grammatica, hostiario sub ipso,'' and he is to correct (90.) c c 3 ' and 206 MIMUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE S2d May 1865. and punish according to the statutes ; in short, he has none but the general power of government over the head and other masters given to him, whereas tlje head master has a distinct power of regulating not only the studies but the morea of the scholars ; and if any conflict were to arise which never has occurred in any distinct shape between the head master and the provost as to the bounds of their respective jurisdictions, that is precisely the question that the founder meant his visitor should decide ; but you are asked to decide that question by Act of Parliament. Earl of Derbi/.] Supposing the provost and the head master are agreed upon any subject, you do not contend that the visitor has the power of interpreting these statutes, when he is not called upon to interpret between them r Mr. Hope Scott.] No, my Lord ; but that is subject to this observation, that any member of the foundation might raise the question. Every member of the foundation has the same right of appeal to the visitor. He "has no right of appeal to any ordinary tribunal; and therefore, injustice, he must have a right to appeal to the visitor. Earl of Derby.] But merely as regards the interpretation of the existing statutes ; there is no power to alter them. Mr. Hope Scott.] It is merely as regards the interpretation ; but I wish to point out to your Lordship how many of these questions are questions of inter- pretation. This question of the boundaries of the jurisdiction and powers of the masters and the provost is clearly a question of interpretation ; and the question of the application of the surplus revenues of the college is also only a matter of interpretation. Chairman.] I believe I am right in saying that the visitors could only act in case of nn appeal being made to them. And neither the Archbishop of Canter- bury, nor the Bishop of Lincoln, nor the Bishop of Oxford, whoever may have the right to be visitor, have ever made a visitation. No such thing is known as a visitation of the school. Mr. Hope Scott.] There has been no visitation for a long time. I think the time is mentioned, and the subject is alluded to in the Commissioners' Report. No visitation has taken place for the last 20 years, certainly. I am told not since Laud's visitation ; that is very likely. I will tell your Lordships why this has not been done ; it is because the common lawyers have thrown every possible difficulty in the way. Lord fVrotteslei/.] I do not know whether there are any I'ecent decisions of the Court of Chancery uj)on the powers of visitors ; but when 1 practised in the Court of Chancery, there was very great doubt as to the extent of the powers of visitors. Mr. Ho2)e Scott.] I can give your Lordship the last book upon the law of Mortmain and Charities. I will not undertake to read it all to-day ; but the ruling case is Phillips v. Bury ; and since that, I think there has not been much doubt upon the point. Lord Wrottenlci/.] What was the date of that. Mr. Hope Scott.] I think it was settled by Chief Justice Holt. But in tlie Court of Chancery, I should remind your Lordship, you get questions of trusts, and there are very often visitors who are visitors of a school where there is a ti'ust, but I am speaking now of that kind of institution from which the Court of Chancery is wholly excluded, and in which the question that arises is a common law cpicstion. I understand now to what your Lordship was referring. I quite agree that there are cases in which there are trustees of a charity who are also visitors of a school. Then there has arisen this question : is there any power in the Court of Chancery to interfere with them r And the answer was (at least I think it is now settled), we will interfere with you with regard to the administration of prop(;rty, because you cannot visit yourselves ; we will not interfere with you with regard to the visitation of the s(;hool, because you and the school iire two distinct bodies. But as regards a body constituted like Eton College, under its own statutes, and subject to the jurisdiction of a visitor of its pro])erty, the decision of the visitor is final and his power of inter- oretation, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 207 pretation, as far as I know, has never yet been denied in any of the courts of 22d May 1865. law. — — Now, my Lords, in order to carry on tlie question of what the visitor could do by way of interpretation, let mo remind you that the whole system of the Oppidan School at Eton has arisen out of a few words in the very same statute I was reading to you about the master, the 14th statute. The whole of the Oppidan system at Eton has arisen from a sort of bye-allowance of the founder for strange boys who are not of his foundation, to come to the school ; but it is not otherwise mentioned in the statutes. Now supjjose any questions arose as to what i)art the head master should take with regard to those scholars ; he has to teach them ; he is at the .same time to exact nothing for tuition ; wliat is to be done ? That very case has arisen, and has been decided. Upon the inter- pretation of the statutes founded upon the necessity of the case, the case itself being brought before the visitor by the statute, a reasonable interpretation was given under which the tuition of the school has been afforded. If the visitor can do all that, being appealed to only when a difficulty occurs, why should not he do it under the directions, it might be, of Parliament, and in a formal and systematic manner ? Why should you distinctly pass by an essential portion of the founder's intentions, while you recite them in the preamble ; when you find that not only could you relieve yourselves of a great many of your present difficulties without legislation, but when, if there is to be any new making of statutes, he who stands in the place of the founder, and represents his mind and thought, in the eye of the law, is at hand to do that which is required to be done in consequence of the change of circumstances in the school. But, my Lords, I can understand that possibly this Bill might have been justified, extreme as it is in all its measures against Eton, by the proof of some enormous misconduct on the part of the College of Eton which requires Par- liamentary interference, and sets aside as wholly unequal to the occasion the powers of the visitor. But what is proved against Eton ? It is proved by the Report itself that within the last 'JO years the collegers have had their condition very much amended. The report says, " Within the last 20 years there has been a great and progressive improvement ; and it is due to those by whom that improvement was introduced (it began vmder Provost Hodgson), and to the present provost and fellows, to say that they are relieved from the reproach which unquestion- ably attaches to their predecessors. Forty-nine of the 70 collegers have now single rooms, the remaining 21 were lodged, until 1861, in a large room under the superintendence of a conduct and three upper boys ; and each has now a small dormitory partitioned off from the rest. The accommodation in college seems at present to be as good as could be desired, except that fire-places, where they can be had, might be advantageously substituted for the hot water with which 44 out of the 48 rooms are warmed, and that the rooms appropriated to the sick are confined and inconvenient. There is an assistant master in college, whose rooms communicate with those of the boys, who has the domestic superintendence of them, and is responsible, in great measure for their mhral training. For these duties he receives from the college 230/. a j ear, with rooms, coals and candles. The bullying and other evils, which made the long- chamber a bye-word with old Etonians, have been entirely removed by these simple means, and are now only matters of history and tradition. There is a matron and housekeeper, and a sufficient number of servants for every purpose, except, as it would appear, for attendance at dinner in hall, where the fags have to wait upon their masters, and cannot therefore get their own dinners till their masters have done." I am assured that that is not the fact, but of course I have no right to say that ; I am only reading the report ; however, there is no evidence quoted, I see, in support of it. The Report goes on : " Bread, butter, and milk are supphed for breakfast and tea (for tea and sugar the boys are charged a fixed low price), and a supper at nine o'clock, of cold meat, which, as at the dinner, is generally mutton. Any additional nourishment or extra attendance which they may require in sickness is paid for by the college ; and they have the gratuitous use of the sanatorium, the college paying such expenses as their removal to it may occasion." I will not read on here. Although every now and then there is as much said against us as can decently be mingled with the praise, yet, on the whole, I think, upon the (90.) c c 4 face 208 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE :2ciMavi865. face of this Report, there has been no such enormous misconduct proved as L regards the King s Scholars at any rate. There is, it is true, the question of vfhether they ought to pay for their own cheese, and whether it is fit they should eat roast mutton five days in the week. Lord LylteltonJ] That is altered now, I think. ]Mr. Hope Scolt.'\ There has been a change. It did not need an Act of Par- liament to alter the bill of fare, except of course of the provost. Therefore, my Lords, we are allowed for 20 years past to have treated the boys well. That being admitted, let me dwell for a moment or two upon the actual con- dition of the collegers, as they are called. What the value of their present position is, is rather vaguely stated, both in the Report of the Commissioners, and in the evidence, except on the part of the college, who, in their answers, put the advantages of a colleger as being equal to 1 00 /. a-year ; that appears from the Report at page 66. 1 should have thought they had been higher, because the method of calculation there suggested, and which is also given by Mr. Paul in the Appendix is, that you are to take an Oppidan's bills as representing pretty much the total expenditure of a colleger, and then see how much the parents have to pay out of their pockets towards that. Founded upon that principle, as laid down in page 66, it would appear as if the benefits of collegers were above 100/. a-year; but I am quite willing to take them at 100/. a-year only. Let me now show your Lordships how the collegers and the fellows stand together with regard to the increase from the time of the founder to the present day. A scholar was in the year 1441 to liave 3 /. 8^. 4 (/. a year. Money we are told by Mr. Rogers in the interesting paper which is to be found in the Ai3i)endix after the notes of the secretary, is now worth twelve times as much as it was in the period comprising the year 1441 ; that would make the scholar's portion of 3 /. 8 s. 4 d. equal to 4 1 /. at the present day from the mere change in the value of money ; he has, at the lowest estimate, twice that amount and one- half over. I point to those figures, because with that rigid criticism which is ap- plied to us at every turn, a contrast is drawn between, on the one hand, what is now appropriated to the scholars and what was then appropriated to the scholars, and on the other hand what is now appropriated to the fellows and what was then appropriated to the fellows; that is done at page 106; and it is done by comparing the two gross sums, the one to be divided by 70, and the other to be divided by 1 0. Then let me state what is the position of the fellows. The fellows in 1441 were to have 14/. ISs.; if you multiply that by 12, you bring them up to 1/8 /. \(3 s.; they have actually got 800 /. a year ; but as Mr. Rogers says in his pa])er, the numerical and equitable ratios are two different things ; the question is whether the scholars have been unduly kept out of their emoluments on the one hand, and on the other whether the emoluments of the fellows and the scholars ought always to have gone in the same increasing ratio. Mr. Rogers also points out to you in that paper that the numerical and equitable ratios are not to be applied to changes in time to appreciate the value of emoluments, because manners change as well ; .'i /. a year he puts down as the salary of a chaplain in one portion of his paper ; and we know tliat the clergy, to begin with, wei'e single ; and in the next place many of them never held the same position in society as the clergy now do. Taking into accoinit the marriage of the clergy at Eton, and taking into account their increased social standard, I think that no man will say that 800 /. was excessive for them, if the scholai-s got two-and-a- half times as much as the foiuider allotted to them, even allowing for the change in the value of money ; and that is acknowledged in substance, because in the Bill it is proposed that they should have 700 /. a year, a difference of 100 /., I admit, and nothing more. Let me now take it in the other way. The provost, under the statutes, was to have seven-and-a-half times as much money as any one of the fellows ; in- asmuch as they were to have in money, apart from livery and commons, 10 /. : he was to have 7-^ I- in money, and he was to have double commons, and he was to have double livery, and he was to have three servants kept for him. But taking in all these, with the money payments and the doulile commons, he had actually 82/. \7 s. ; that multiplied by 12, gives him nearly 1,000/. a year, men^ly laising the money, on th;; principle of Mr. Rogers, up to the present date. 'J'hat would be nearly 1,000 /. a year, which he was to have had in SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [n. L.] 209 in all; seven-and-a-half times as much money as a fellow, or, with other 22dMaj 1863^ appointments, five-and-a-half times as much ;is the whole appointments of what the fellows had. Now, if the fellows are to have 700 /. a year under this Bill, or take it only at 500 /., the provost ought to have at least ;},,500 /., or from that to 4,000 /. a year. I am not sa\ ing that he ought to have that amount ; hut I am saying that these things are not consistent in rchition to each other, as they could and would he made if they were dealt with l)y a consultative hndy, such as would be formed l^y tlie college and its own visitor. All these relations of the different persons towards each other, the increased claim of different portions of the society, and the increased advantages which they are entitled to, would be discussed in a friendly and amicable sense between the visitor and those whose statutes he was to interpret, instead of being launched, as the Bill is here, with an absolute settlement of the provost's salary at 2,000 /. a year, when, upon the very basis which has been chosen here for the calculation directed against the fellows, he ought to have, having at present only 1,800 /. odd pounds a year, much more, nearly 4,000 I. a year, or rather fully 4,000 /. a year, if he had been left in the same relative position as the fellows have been left in, and will be left in under the Bill. I have already referred to Westminster, where the means of making a similar contrast have not been jifforded to us, but where 1 v.as able, by laying my hands upon ihe Report of the Cathedral Com- missioners, to find out somewhat more than appeared in these papers. Then, my Lords, it is quite plain, I think, that the governing body of Eton, whatever it is, has not at any rate of late years done ill towards the foundation scholars. Now, has it discouraged the Oppidan School ? As I have said, two or three words in the 14th statute of the founder, apparently accidental bye-words dropped out ef a grant of charity to those who might be in want of instru(;tion, have laid the foundation of what I suppose even those who charge it with great faults will admit to have no equal in the world as a school. Whoever ventured to say there was any other school like Eton V And if it has faults, my Lords, why the ocean has more dirt in it than your little streams. You must have a system with imperfections when it work? out, as this has done, from the natural habits of the people of England, without any direction of statutes or pre- scriptions of uiitents as to how it is to be conducted. The Commissioners tell us they have no account of its rise. It sprang up of itself. The English character made it, and in return it makes the English character. It makes, my Lords, the English gentleman, I will venture to say, as well as any institution that can be produced for that purpose. I do not say that it makes second-rate men of literature and science, because the English character did not require them to be made ; otherwise, long since, thej^ would have been made. The truth is, that it is in the unsystematic and natural growth of this school that you find at once its force and its weakness. It force, because it dr;iws to it almost the whole of the prime boys of England ; I am speaking now, of course, pace the other schools ; at any rate in proportions hardly ever known in any other school. That constitutes its force. Its weakness arises from the fact that it is a plant of natural growth, arising out of the English character, and meeting its wants ; and those wants, I venture to say, in the main it has met, and does continually meet. I am not going into the question of the principle of education. It may be that more modern languyge should be le;a-nt, that more natural science should be studied at Eton, than there is now. But when I see it stated by learned persons that at 10 years old a boy is quite capable of understanding a very large portion of what is set down for matriculation at the London University under the head of natural philosophy, and other observations of tliat kind, I cannot think that such an acquisition of knowledge ought to play so very large a part in the formation of the mind, because, after all, that is the question I, if I may venture here to speak of myself, have observed enough in a hfe which has been tolerably devoted to business to know this, that the possession of knowledge upon any one subject is worthless compared to the possession of a power of using knowledge when you have got it. My Lords, in my profession, although not in my part of it, there are many men who will take up a patent case, or a mining case, without the slightest previous knowledge of the natural sciences relating to it, and who will make statements to a jury which the scientific men at hand will stand aghast at ; what does that mean ? It means (90.) D D that 210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE (1 May 1865. that they have been so trained in the acquisition of knowledge when presented to tliem, and in the handUng that knowledge when acquired by them, that it becomes to them a mere matter of get up, in many instances, to acquire an amount of knowledge which vFould absolutely electrify many a learned society. Therefore, my Lords, I am not an advocate for telling the Eton boys to go and look after daisies and pick up pebbles instead of playing at cricket and pulling the boats ; that I admit. Nor am I an advocate for their learning those small amounts of physical science which have the temptation of carrying with them a learned nomenclature which is very easily acquired, and which they may have an opportunity of displaying to their sisters and their mothers in the garden or on the way-side ; very likely as that is to please and satisfy a young mind, instead of pressing on to become scholars, that is to say, to learn one or two languages thoroughly, and get the discipline from that study, and " be prepared by constantly working without any definite result visible to their eyes and appreciable by their senses, to attain the object of giving a muscular and athletic character to the whole powers which they possess. But, my Lords, if ;ill this be necessary and desirable, tliis Act does not do it, for it prescribes no studies ; it does in regard to Eton very few things, except what I think might have been kept a little more in the back ground, the ad- mission of illegitimate children. It prescribes no course of studies, nothing of the kind ; what it aims at is what I should call to poison the well ; to infuse into that which the founder speaks of as the fons and stirps, a material which in time is to ooze out and In-ing about the educational system which is aimed at by the promoters of the Bill. I venture to say, that Eton is hardly a fit subject for an experiment of this kind. Now let me see whether we have any great right to complain, after all, that it should be attempted upon us ; I say attempted, for effected 1 do not believe it ever will be, because I have that confidence, if I may venture to use so homely a word, in the good sense of your Lordships' House, as well as of the other House of Parliament, that I feel sure that such a mode of dealing with such an insti- tution as Eton, as is proposed under this Bill, never will succeed ; but I am about to tell your Lordships why J need not complain, or ought not to complain, upon the part of my climts, that it is attempted, and that will be easy. What makes me speak in that way, and ought perhaps to have made me more sub- missive in the general tone of my remarks is this, that I find with other bodies as eminent, perhaps more eminent, certainly in a particular way far more eminent than we pretend to be at Eton, a similar mode of dealing proposed. 1 have before me a list of the governors of a school, which begins with the name of Archdeacon Hale, and then proceeds to my Lord Howe, the Duke of Buccleuch, Earl Russell, Earl of Dalhousie, Earl of Derby, Lord Cranworth, Earl of Harrowby, the Bishop of London, Lord Justice Turner, Earl of Komney, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Viscount Palmerston, Earl of Devon, the Arch- bishop of York, and Lord Chelmsford. Putting aside for the present the most reverend and right reverend names there which cannot be used for the purpose of my contrast, I will just ask your Lordships whether, if amongst those men, there prevailed within the walls of Parliament the same harmony which I cannot doubt prevails at the Board of the Charterhouse, and if all those names were to be found in a list of Her Ma- jesty's Government, there would not be a general idea that that government was a tolerably strong one, and that the country had got men at its head who were capabk' of nuuiaging thi^ empire ; but, my Lords, they are not fit to manage the Charterhouse School ; that is why I say that the College of Eton has no right to complain when it finds that a list of names, including those most reverend and right reverend prelates whom I merely do not include in what I have said, because they could not be members of a ministry according to modern notions ; when we find that men who would be taken, practically speaking, to be capable of governing the empire, are not fit to govern the Charterhouse School, one certainly does begin to feel that nobody else ought to complain very much at l)eing thought unfit ; but they are unfit ; they have many virtues, there is no doubt, but there is one thing wanting, and we shall see from the Report, what it is. " We have already stated our opinion " (say the Commissioners) " that the governing body of a great public school shoidd be i)(;rmanent in itself and independent SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 211 independent of personal or local interests, of personal or professional influences aad May i8f.o or prejudices ; audtluit it is very desirable tliar, it should iiu'lude men conversant with the world, with the requirements of active life, and with the ])rogress of literature and science. The governing; body of the Charterhouse is now and has long been composed of men eminent for their rank and character, and little liable to be influenced by local interests or by personal or professional prejudices. Many of them have distinguished themselves in different pro- fessions, and not a few occupy or have occupied high positions in public life ; while several have achieved literary success or have shown thcniselv(,'S active promoters of tlie cause of education, ^i'hey all possess an amount of experience and knowledge of the world which we believe lo be of great value to the interests of a public school. We should think that we were doing an ill service to the Charterhouse if we were to propose any material alteration in the general constitution of this body. It appears to us that a slight modification only is needed to adapt it to the duties wliich we propose to throw upon it, in common with the governing bodies of the other schools under our review." " The task which these bodies will have to undertake, if the recommendations of our Report are adopted, is one of considerable importance and much delicacy. It is that of blending a due proportion of modern studies with the old classical course, without destroying the general character of the public schools." That is to say, to be short, that there is to be some French and Italian taught in the school. " In order lo the accomplishment of this task, it is desirable that the governing bodies should include a certain number of members specially chosen on account of their familiarity with and proficiency in the new studies, which it is desirable to introduce and to regulate. Tiie presence of such men will at once give confidence to the public," (not yet extended to the existing governors of the Charterhouse, it would appear), " and enable the governors themselves to conduct their discussions with the advantage of having always at hand the best information, and the best advice upon points on which they are likely to require it. We recommend the introduction of this element into the governing body of the Charterhouse, as we have recommended it in the case of other schools. We propose that, before proceeding to re-arrange the studies of the school, the governors should associate with themselves four new members, chosen with especial reference to their attainments in science or literature, thus for a time raising their number to 20 ; we do not, however, propose that the number should permanently exceed 16 ; and we recommend that the first four vacancies which may occur, should not be filled up. When the number falls below 16, it should be replenished by fresh elections ; but one governor in every lour should, we think, continue to be chosen with special regard to the ciualifications which we have described." This, then, my Lords, explains the principle upon which men are to be put into such a body as that of the governors of the Charterhouse. The men con- stituting that body are fit to govern the empire, but they are not fit to govern the school, at any rate the school which the Commissioners intend. Now it seems to me, that if the new studies proposed by the Commissioners are such as to render it impossible for the existing Charterhouse governors to carry them out, that should be a reason for rejecting the Bill. For cei'tainly, if you were to search the country for the purposes of government (and there is where I am at issue with the Commissioners) you could not find such a body as the governors of the Charterhouse. In order to test the principle, let me take the public departments in the same way. Suppose I were to say, for it would be exactly upon the same principle, that one of the Lords of the Admiralty ought^ to be a shijj's carpenter, or that tlie Tinder Secretary of the Home Office should be a policeman, because then they would be constantly at hand to inspire the more dignified members of those departments, and they would be fresh upon all their own subjects ; the policeman, familiar with all the last modes of theft, and the ship's carpenter with all the newest modes of construction. My Lords, it is to mistake government for instrumental action. Suppose those gentlemen I have named were to become Her Majesty's Ministers, how are they lo be qualified to nominate those different scientific people. You must begin somewhere ; somebody must be wise enough to be able to select the others ; and if qualifications equal to those which are necessary to make Her Majesty's Ministry will not, without the addition of some of those men eminent in literature and science, enable such men to prescribe new studies (90.) D D 2 in 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKtN BEFORE THE 82d May 1865. in a school, how can Her Majesty's Ministry he in a condition to recommend the selection ot any particular scientific men to he appointed ? I say, however, upon this point, that it is a consolation to us to find that after all we need not be so very bad as people call us, in order to lie subject to the introduction ot some new element amongst us. And we .are further consoled when we read the Report about Rugby, which, as your f.ordships know, is the model school of the Report, and in which it would appear that almost all things to be desired in a school are to be found. Yet there we find that the Warwick- shire squires, like the governors of the Charterhouse, must submit. They are treated gently ; they are told of the value of their services ; they are told of the great use of their local influence, but they must submit ; the inevitable man of science must come in. Here again we are consoled, for we find that certainly the most eminent governing body is said to require improvement, and we find, that the best conducted school, according to the Report, also requires improve- ment. Lord LytteltonS] AVe have nowhere said that Rugby is the model school ; it is not even called the best school, in the Report ; I think you have put it a little too strongly. Mr. Hope Scott.'] No doubt, my Lord, you have not used the term ; but when I have read this passage I think you will say it is as good a description of a model school as can lie found. It is at page 298 of the Report : " A head master whose character for ability, zeal, and practical success promise to make him conspicuous on the list of Rugby head masters ; a staff of assistants who combine with skill, ability, and knowledge, such a lively personal interest in the school as induces them to make habitual sacrifices for its welfare ; a system of mental training which comprehends almost every subject by which the minds of boys can be enlarged and invigorated ; a traditional spirit amongst the bovs of respect and honour for intellectual work ; a system of discipline which, while maintaining the noble and wholesome tradition of public schools, that the abler and more industrious should command and govern the rest, still holds in reserve a maturer discretion to moderate excess, guide uncertainty, and also to support the legitimate exercise of power ; a system of physical training which, while it distinguishes the strong, strengthens the studious and spares the weak ; a religious cultivation which, although active, is not over strained, but leaves something for solemn occasions to bring out ; such are some of the general con- ditions which have presented themselves to notice during our investigation. They go far also, we think, t(.i explain that public confidence which the school has for many years possessed, and never since the days of Arnold in larger measure than at the present moment." ]^ord LyltclUm.\ Perhaps you may like to read the last paragraph in page 56 ; that applies to all the schools in a great measure. Mr. Hoyt Scott.] To all the schools. 1 his is not said of Eton anywhere, my Lord. \A'eil, my Lords, even that school, I will not call it the model school, certainly it is a model which few could manage to imitate, is to have an infusion of new blood into its management. As I have said, there is a tone of delicacy and considei'ation for the squires (for they are country squires) amongst whom these new pcojile are to be introduced, which is almost touching ; still they must yield. The time has come ; they must have a constant — not constant, because they are not near enough — but they are to have the advantage as often as possible of the presence of the particular kind of person described in the Schedules of the Bili, to whose entity I am about to come. Now, my Lords, 1 have thrown togetlier all the different descriptions of qualification which are retpiircd or to be insisted upon under the Sclu^dules of the Bill in the, new governing bodies ; I find tliat at Eton the eight " honorary fellows shall be persons qualified by position or attainments to fill that situation with advantage to the school ; " whilst the stipendiary fellows are to be " distin- guished for literary or scientific attainments, or have done long and eminent service to the school as head master, lower master, or assistant master ; " from this distinction I conclude, not unnaturally, that persons distinguished for literary or scientific attainments are not necessarily, or in tlu; minds of the framers of the Bill, ordinarily persons qualified by position or attainments to fill the situation with advantage to the school. And SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 213 And I am strengthened in that, because havinj[^ gone through the greater 22d Maj 18C5 nunil.Ha" of the Schedvdes relating to attainments of scientific and other kinds, when I come to Shrewsbury I find them all summed up in this way : " All per- sons becoming governors in pin-snance of this Act shall be members of the Church of England, and persons qualified by tlieir position or attainments to fill that situation with advantages to the school, and those nominated by the Crown shall be graduates of ( )xford or Cambridge, and men eminent in science or literature." The distinction tht- refore is plain. It seems that the stipendiary governors are all to be men who can benefit the school, who will be of advantage to the school by their character, tlicir position, or their attainments ; and then upon that basis of service to the school, is to be built the small superstructure in the case of the Crown appointments of " men eminent in literature or science." I think, therefore, it must Ite admitted that there is a peculiar distinction in the mind of the framers of the Bill, between the class of men who will benefit the school and that particular class which is called either " men distinguished for literary or scientific attainments," or " eminent in literature or science." But there are things in all these cases which puzzle one a good deal. I find in the Report that the Company of Mercers are not spoken of with respect as regards their literary attainments ; but when I come to the schedule dealing with the new members who are to be introduced into the governing body of their school, I find no qualification at all is required ; they are to estabhsh their own standard. What it will be, we may guess from their name — the yard measure, I suppose. None is prescribed at all by the Bill. Now let me turn a little more seriously to this question, which, if this Bill passes, will become a very important one : What is meant by a person distin- guished for literary or scientific attainments. We are told of a class of men " distinguished for literary or scientific attainments," and " men eminent in science or literature." We must assume that a great many persons will act very conscientiouslv in making the electicms under this Bill if it becomes an Act, and that Her Majesty's advisers will do the same, and the question is, how will they find out, each in their separate sphere, what is this distinguished man of literature or science. Earl of Derby.'] There will have to be a competitive examination, of course, for the governors, Mr. Hupe Scott.'] I should think, my Lord, there might be something like that. But I am happy to say that 1 have discovered another method, and though it really is worth a patent, I will communicate it to your Lordships. NA'lien you speak of a person being distinguished or eminent, you speak, of course, of the opinions of others about him. Competitive examination, which your Lord- ship suggests, would enable you to find out that he was proficient, but it would not prove, because he might be utterlv unknown, that he was distinguished, or that he was eminent, that is to say, taller than the rest of the crowd of scientific men. I can conceive that possibly the W^arwickshire squires, who may not have such ready means of judging as people living in London have of what is dis- tinction, or what is eminence in these matters, might take a false standard ; they might take the editor of a newspaper in the neighbourhood as being the most distinguished man in the county, or something of that kind. There would be a constant snare to conscientious people, but, on the other hand, an enormous laxity of interpretation to those who are not conscientious, and yet they must perform the duty. Now we know what a master of arts is, we know what a doctor of divinity is, we know too well what a doctor of medicine is, we know what a doctor of laws is, and we know what a barrister of six years' standing is. All those are creatures ascertainable by the outward impress of somebody who has a right to put that seal upon them. What we want is somebody to do that for us here. I am happ}' to say, I have discovered, in the rules of an institution established in London, the continual operation of that very process that will be required to ascertain who are distinguished, or even who are eminent for those particular qualifications. I am about to read from the rules and regulations of the Atheuseum Club. (90.) D D 3 Lord 214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •i2d May 1865. Lord Houghton.] The uncharitable club. Mr. Hnpe Scolt.] You will observe that there is no mention of charity in the qualification of members : " The Athenaeum is instituted for the association of individuals known for their scientific or hterary attainments." It looks as if the conveyancer was a member of the club : " Artists of eminence in any class of the fine arts, and noblemen and gentlemen distinguished as liberal patrons of science, literature, or the arts." Now that your Lordshijjs may see that tliere will be no scarcity, I may inform you that " The number of ordinary members is fixed at 1,200," and with the extraordinary memliers, whom I will mention presently, there are now 1.290 members. That disposes of that particular description, " distinguished for literary and scientific attainments." Then when we come to the next, that of eminence, you will observe that there is a variety in the expression : the rule says, " Persons of distinguished eminence in science, hterature, or the arts, or for public services, should be secured-" Now this might be adopted in the Act. If 1 could see the conveyancer, I should be happy to settle the clause with him. Wherever this Bill speaks of persons distinguished for scientific or literary attainments let the conveyancer, put into, his Interpretation Clause that that shall mean " Ordinary members of the Athenaeum Club." Lord Houffhlon.] Or extraordinary iTiembers. Mr. Hope Scotl.'\ No, my Lord, ordinary members ; and when we come to distinguished eminence, or eminence in science or literature, let him say that that shall mean members elected by the Committee under Rule II. of the Athenfeum Club. This club is the only great institution which has adopted this particular kind of qualification for its members. It will be very puzzling to people in general, especially to people in the country, if they have to make up their minds upon these points; but just as vou take a doctor of divinit}' from Oxford or Cambridge, or a barrister from Lincoln's Inn, you would take those men ready tested, with the seal of the club upon them, and that would save an infinity of difficulty, and much doubt would be avoided, because, if those dif- ferent governing bodies do not make such elections as have been before described, the Crown is to do it, and the Crown might differ from them as to what the pecvdiar eminence or distinction was which they attributed to those whom they elected. That is the nearest ap|)roach I can make to this question as to how we are ever to ascertain who are the parties qualified- The Com- missioners say that they felt that the choice should be large and liberal. I think with such provision as is afforded by the number of members of that club, it would not be difficult to find all that is necessary. Now let me just point out to j'our Lordships the particvdar position which those gentlemen, when ascertained, will occupy under the Bill. There will be disposable in the way of what may be called scientific and literary decora- tions, without remuneration, some 1/ or 18 places; and, undoubtedly, the possession of the title of governor of a great school, especially coming from the Crown, will be taken as a sort of couronne d'fionneurhy those gentlemen ; — but that is not all, because by bringing in Eton, in the ciu'ious way I have men- tioned, by the Interpretation Clause, tlie Commissioners managed to get hold of five places of 700 I. a year there, and at Winchester (if it is> to remain in the Bill), they get hold of four places of /OO /. a year ; all those are to be filled up by men distinguished for their literary and scientific attainments. The move- ment, then, my Lords, is not a mere barren movement, simply for honour or for the development of any opinion ; but it is to import that whereas there are now at Eton a number of fellows elected according to the direction of the founder, who must be in priest's orders, who must attend the Church services, and wlio must be ((ualified by academical degrees, those stipendiaTV places shall be thrown open at Eton, and the whole five shall be given to men distinguished for literary or scientific attainments, who have done Icng and eminent service to the school, with no provision that tliey shall be graduates, with a provision that only three at least need be in holy orders, and the remaining two, those being the places free from academical degrees, are to be bestowed, with sti- pends of 700 I. a year, upon men distinguished for literary and scientific attain- ments, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 215 ments, who are to take the places of tlie jjoor old priest fellows, suffi-claikr 221! May 1865, literati, and to say their prayers, and to chant in the ehajjel, and to attend to the worship of Almighty God. This is the substitute that is proposed. So again, at Winchester the same course is pursued. And this, mv Lords, is the Bill. Now if 1 may venture to say so again, for I have already declared it once, I say that this is a Bill that cannot pass as it stands. It cannot ])ossiblv ])ass as regards Winchester, because you would have it reformed twice within ten years, which, even according to modern views of reformation, is too rapid a jn-oeess. It ought not to pass with regard to Eton, ])ecause the college of Eton was not within the purview of the Commissifin, and is not connected with the school in any wider sense than this (I am sjieaking of the statutable intentions of the founder), that the head master is subject to the provost, and that between the provost, the head master, and ihe under master, all the main business of the school was intended by the statutes to be, and is in fact, now transacted. The college, meaning thereby the fellows of the cohege, are not charged with anv government or any duties with regard to the school, and are therefore not with- in the purview of the inquiry, and are not within the preamble of the Bill. It is by the Interpretation (, lause alone that they are brought in, and with them the chaplains ami choristers, and lay clerks, and all the curious things which are to be found within the walls of the college when once entrance is got to it. I say, my Lords, upon that account the Bill should not pass. And again I say it cannot pass if there is to be any reference at all to the will of the founder, because this is a complete change of his institution. What he contemplated was a totally different kind of institution. And this is to be done on behalf of a school, mainly at least on behalf of a school which has grown up by accident as it were, by the side of this college, and not in it. Again, my Lords, I say that the visitors' jurisdiction is a part of the founder's will ; that it exists in a form available at any time, or if it has at all fallen into desuetude, your Lord- ships, or we ourselves could put it into active motion at any time, with a view to a further interprttation or revision of the statutes. But while I mention all these things as reasons why this Bill should not pass, do not misunderstand me, or suppose that we wish to maintain a position of resistance, or to be stationary ; we have been moving, as the report tells you, before the Commissioners were appointed; we have been moving for twenty years ; we have nut moved lately, because like Winchester we have been waiting to see what would come of this Report ; give us enabling powers if you think fit ; enable the Provost and College of Lton in consultation with their visitor to alter and reform and change tlnir statutes, and bring in if you think fit or necessary, though I do not think it would be necessary, a reference of those altered statutes to the Crown. I have mentioned to your Lordships that Eton and Winchester were put under the University Acts, and without tiring you with the details of what was done under those Acts, I may say that they have been found adequate to make very extensive alterations in the colleges, both at Cambridge and Oxford. King's College itself, our sister college, has been extensively reformed or altered at least ; to use the word " reform " is nith me always a matter of doubt, unless I know fully the subject ; in like acanner Winchester has been altered at least extensively as you are told in the Keport ; those are the models which have been set when the question of a college, not of a school, was before Parliament. An attempt has been made to make this school the college. No such attempt was made to make Win- chester School into Winchester College, but the same grounds would have applied in that case. Now I say reverse the admittedly illogical proceedings of the writers of this report— begin with the college, treat the college as a college in the universities would have bet-n Ireafed, and as the sister college was treated, and as it was intended in the Cambridge Act that Kton should be ti-eated ; let this body, with proper consultation with its visitor, be empowered to make statutes ; if that visitor approves the statutes (and he can call in what counsel he wishes; he might even call in some of those men distinguished for literary and scieutitic attainments) ; let them be approved also if necessary by the Crown ; there you have a course consi?tent with, and not violating, the foundei-'s intentions, and equal to the emergencies of tlie case at Eton, as it was equal to all the emergen- cies of the colleges in Oxford and Cambridge ; and by it you will at the same (90 ) D D 4 time 216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■Hid May 1S65. time expect the recital in the preamble of this Bill with reference to the inten- lions of the founder, and what is more you will get a real workable system ; at Cambridge I think the word " useful learning " is employed ; you will get soiTie- tliiug uyion the " usefid learning " footing, whether the useful learning be of a scientific character, or comprise languages, or anything else ; utility and not theory is the basis upon which these amendments of the statutes were to be made ; you will thereby get a harmonious system, but I confess you will find no place for those particular protcf/h of the framers of the Bill, for those gentlemen as to whom I was long and much meditant to find out who they were, and about whom at least my mind was set at rest only by discovering that they represented each and all of them the principle of a club in London which has 1,290 members. Chairman. 1 You seemed rather to complain of the framer of this Bill, and of those who instructed him, for having introduced the word " college," and made the term " college " apply to the school ; although you had boasted on the part of all Etonians how very much satisfaction they had in being mem- bers of the college, and not merely of the school. I think, in thus condemning the conveyancer, and those who gave him instructions in framing the Bill, you omitted to take into consideration the terms of the Royal Warrant by which the Commission was appointed, and under which it acted. You will see in the second clause of that warrant, " Whereas We have deemed it expedient, for divers good causes and considerations, that a Commission should forthwith issue for the purpose of inquiring into the nature and application of the en- dowments, funds, and revenues belonging to or received by the hereinafter mentioned colleges, schools, and foundations." I do not tliink that, in the execution of that warrant by the Commission, the colleges could have been omitted as forming parts of the schools, or that, in order to avoid any mis- apprehension about the word, that second clause of the Bill was either unne- cessary or uncalled for. Mr. Hope Scott.] I should be very sorry, my Lord, I am sure, if I had in any degree brought a charge which I ought not to have brought. I think what I stated was this, that it was quite plain that in the terms of the Com- mission the word " college " was used popularly. 1 said that even the oppi- dans of Eton used to speak of themselves as of the college. I said then, when the conveyancer drew his Bill, he had to find out that technical description which Avould enable him to deal not with a school only, but also Avith what is not a school, but a college. Tliat is where I complained, not of the conveyancer, but of the mode in which the Commissioners have soualit to bring under their jurisdiction, qv(i school, that which they could only deal with by making it the governing body of a school, and proceeding, step by step, to make the fellows the governors, when, in a previous part of their ReiJort, they had said they were not. Lord Lyttelton.'] What we said was, that they were not statutable governors. You do not seriously contend that it would have been possible for the Com- missioners to have omitted all mention of the fellows of Eton, in their Report, do you ? Mr. Hope Scott.'\ I think they might as well have referred to the canons of Westminster. Ch airman^ It appears to me that they were quite in a different position. Mr. Hfpe Scott.'] Only, I think, because they gave up the school at the first , asking. C/inirman.] The ])roperty that was applicable to Westminster School was in a different position from tliat which was applicable to tlic school at Eton ; it was already within the grasj) of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, I'roni which it is extremely difficult to extricate it. Mr. Ho/ie Scott.] It may have been that which caused the retreat before the Merchant Taylors'. Lord Lij/trlton.] No, the Merchant Taylors' is quite a different case; that is an undoubtedly legal claim. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS UILL. [u. L.] 217 Mr. //ope Scott.] I have endeavoured to describe ihv. position of Eton 22d May 1865. College as a legal position. Your Lordships will excuse my saying that in Wu-, report itself the logical difficulties as to the college and school are admitted, and it is not doubted that it would be lo2;ically corn^ct to begin with the college, whereas the Conunissioners actually begin with tlu; school. Chairman.'] You have have pleaded eloquently for the fellows being cjnly sufficiently learned and only fit to conduct Divine service, and you have also pleaded elof|uently against the admission of anything approaching to literature or science in the body Mr. Hope Scott.] I beg your Lordship's pardon ; do not let that be supposed of me ; it is only to the infusion of those elements as proposed by this Bill that I object. Lord Houghton.] You would not object to any one of the fellows being accidentally a man of science ? Mr. Hope Scott.] No, nor even purposely a man of science. Chairman.] You have also quoted, I must say with great force and truth. the governing body of Charterhouse School, of which you read the names, — of course they are names respected throughout the country —and you said that if they were once named the Cabinet, they would be entitled to the confidence and support of the country, and therefore you put that forward very properly as a model governing body for a public school. But as you protest against the smallest change in the present governing body of Eton, I suppose you bracket those two governing bodies together, and would consider that if the present governing body of Eton was appointed to administer the affairs of the country, they would possess in an equal degree the confidence of the country with that of the Charterhouse ? Mr. Hope Scott.] They are appointed for one object, and the other persons are qualified for another. I hope your Lordships, however, will not misunder- stand me as saying that no change of the governing body of Eton is desirable. Chairman.] I certainly gathered that that was the purport of your remarks. Mr. Hope Scott.] I only spoke of such a change as is proposed in the Bill. I say that the college, together with its visitor, may make sufficient alterations to carry out any changes proposed in this Bill. Chairman] Then you do consider the present governing body of Eton perfect ? Mr. Hope Scott.] I have already said that in a large school or a large system like this, which has grown up out of the feehng and character of the Enghsh people, you will find many things that you cannot reduce to strict rule ; but I say there exists a body with a jurisdiction which, by means of good officers, may gradually and with care supply all that is wanted in that direction. Earl of I>evo7i.] Are the Committee to understand that you assent or object to the introduction of the lay element, supposing them not to have that unfortunate qualification with respect to literature or science i Mr. Hope Scott.] My Lords, 1 do not think it would be fair to fix the College of Eton, through me, to any particular point- I have been authorised so far to say, that if they obtain from Parliament the power to do what is necessary, they will, with their visitor, if necessary, also submitting what they do to the Crown, make statutes and regulations, in which doubtless many of the recom- mendations of this Commission will be observed. Winchester, we are told, is waiting to complete its statute until it sees the Report. We too, should of course pay that respect which is due to the vast accumulation of matter in this Report, and to the character of the Commissioners ; but I will not pledge the college to any one particular. Lord Lyttelton.] I wish to put a question to you, which you need not answer unless you like ; in case legislation takes place at all, do the College of Eton ask Parliament to decide the question who their visitor is. It would be con- venient to know their wishes upon that point ? (90.) E E Mr. 218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22d May 1865. Mr- Hope Scott.l We ask Parliament to leave us alone. Lord Lyttelton.^l Supposing you are not left alone ? Mr. Hope Scotl.'] Then it would be a question upon clauses ; and a question upon clauses is a question that we might possibly be advised to resen-e to another place ; therefore, again, I must ask your Lordship to excuse my answering the question. Chairman.'] Vou have spoken a good deal of the college consulting the visitor ; at the same time you say that visitation has become obsolete, and that the visitor is in very rare eases appealed to ? ^Ir. Hope ScottJ] The evidence is, that the visitor is appealed to whenever there is a difficulty ; that is stated distinctly. Lord Lyttelton.'] He has been appealed to. Chairman.] He was appealed to as to the non-observance of the oath. Mr. Ho2)e Scott.] I think we are told that it has been frequently done ; I can refer to a passage which proves it. Lord Stratford de RedcUffe. ] 1 would take the liberty of remarking, that in a paper amongst those I have here, which bears for its character, " The Provost and Fellows of Eton College beg respectfully to submit the following objections to the Bill," and so forth, I find this passage : " No sufficient ground is shown for interfering with, or altering the existing ecclesiastical and collegiate character of the foundation, although there might be no objection to the addition of some laymen to the present number of fellows." Chairman.] I do not suppose you contend that there is any prohibition by the statutes to the provost being a layman ? Mr. Hope Scott.] The prohibition is simply this, that it is impossible for him to be a priest in Holy Orders and a layman at the same time. Chairman.] That I am perfectly prepared to admit. Mr. Hope Scott.] It comes in that form, I cannot put it otherwise. Chairman.] There is no requirement in the statutes that the provost should be in Holy Orders, I believe? Mr. Hope Scott.] I beg your Lordship's pardon ; you will find that there is. Lord Lyttelton.] There have been lay provosts, but I think that is admitted to have been an irregularity on the part of the Crown. Mr. Hope Scott.] The Crown dispensed with statutes as well as took patronage. Lord Lyttelton.] 1 think it was said to be an irregularity, but perhaps you can turn to the passage in the statutes which speaks of the provost being a priest in Holy Orders. Chairman.] I think we had it in evidence that it was not necessary that he should be so ? Mr. Hope Scott.] The passage in the statutes is this : " Unum de seipsis, aut de sociis nostri collegii Regalis Cantabrigian, aut de illis qui aliquando fuerunt in aliquo Collegiornm nostronim RegaUianjjrmdictorum, et ex causis Jicitis et honestis reccsseriuit ah cisdeni in theohgid mayistrum scu ad minus buccalaurium in eadcni vel injure canonico doctor em et in artibus magistrum in ordine sacerdotii consti- lutum." Earl of Harrowhy.] That runs over the whole of the statutes, does it ? Mr. Hope Scott.] Yes, my Lord, throughout ; he was to have the cure of souls given to him. Lord Lyttelton.] Are you aware of the note at page 60, saying that he may be in Deacon's orders ? Mr. Hope Scott.] Yes, my Lord ; because Deacons are capable of accepting livings ; but I think I may appeal to the Right Reverend Prelate near me as to whether SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 219 whether the)' can perform all those ihinf;:s wliieh are imi)lie;, or which would tend to show, that if they had considered it, they considered it a bad thing ; your Lordships are therefore left entirely in Lhe dark. Earl of DevoN.I You observe that the Westminster Report incorporates and expresses its approval of all the general recommendations up to a certain number ? Mr. FUzjames Stephen. '\ I am quite aware of that, my Lord. What I meant to say, with regard both to the Westminster Report and with regard to the Shrewsbury Report (though I am afraid I expressed myself somewhat awkwardly) v/as, that one would have thought that so remarkable a peculiarity as the appointment of the head master by a college, or by t\yo colleges alter- nately, as in the case of Westmmster, that being a point not only of vital importance to the interests of the school, but, I should say, the cardinal point upon which the efficiency of the school must of necessity turn, would have attracted some specific attention ; and if there had been any evils arising from it, Westminster School having been in existence since the early part of the l/th century, and having been one of the most distinguished schools in England, one would have thought that it would have attracted the attention of the Commissioners, and that they would have entered into the question, and pronounced specifically either for or against the existing arrangement ; but I have not been able to discover any such discussion. Lord Lyttdton.'] It only comes under the general words of tlie recommen- dation that the governing body should liave the appointment and dismissal of the head master in every case ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.'] That I apprehend is the case. It does seem to me a somewhat singidar thing that a matter of importance, and which it is im- possible to exaggerate, should not have been distinctly and specifically discussed in the Report. Earl of Devo7i.'] I do not understand you to say that you have any doubt as to tlie intention of the Commissioners ? Mr. Fit-james Stephen.'] I have some doubt as to what I may perhaps call the constructive intention of the draftsman of this Bill ; but that the Commis- sioners, so far as they had any intention, intended that the general powers of the governing body should apply to Shrewsbiuy and Winchester I have no doubt at all. Earl of Derlnj.] You are kind enough to wish that they should at least effectively carry out their object ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] I am trying, my Lord, to show that from the enormous mvdtitudc of things they had to consider, and the fact of our school being a small one, they might have overlaokcd this point. Lord II on ffh/ 0)1.] The Commissioners, as I understand, do not deny their revolutionary intentions at all ? Mr. Fitzjames Slejyhen^ Then, for the party of order, I must protest against it. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS J3ILL. [h. L.] 229 That being tlie state of the case on that matter, I wisli to point your Lord- .oih May 1865. ships' atl( ntiou to one observation which the Commis.-iioners do make, and which 1 think is strongly in our favour, and that is, that it is not necessary that the powers any more tlian the constitution of those luxlies slioidd be uniformly the same ; they say that uniformity is no object. J3ut if uniformity in general is no object, why should uniformity upon this particular point bo an object ? Why shoidd the governing bodies have the power at all } And why sliouliTthey all have it ? I submit that the burden of proof is ujion the Commissioners, and thfit they have not put us in a position to estimate their arguments ; and that that alone would be enough to justify me in asking your Lordshi|)s tliat we might have a clause specifically declaring that our right of patronage should not be interfered with. Earl oi JDeroii.] You have not failed to observe the following sentenci', " we think it, however, imjiortant on the; one hand that the head master's responsi- bility should be clear and plain." Mr. Fitzjanics Stephen.] Quite so ; that is undoubtedly true. But, on the other hand, there is an admission that it need not be uniform. Now, on the present occasion it is clear and plain, because it is provided by the private Act of Parliament that I have ref rred to, that for majora crimina the Bishop of Lichfield should have the power to deprive. Therefore it is not indefinite, as I am aware it is at Eton or in some other school? ; but the position of the head master at Shrewsbury is certainly clear and ))lain, because it is defined by a private Act of Parliament. I will only read the marginal notes of the sections of that Act, and your Lordships will see what they are : " Appointment of masters on a vacancy," '' Masters to be approved of by the Bishop," " Place of head master and second master to vacate fellowship," " Allowance of salaries," " Allowances to dismissed or disabled masters," " Head master to have the management of school,'' " Directing how the masters and ushers are to be dis- charged in case of immorahty, neglect of duty, or any other cause of complaint." Your Lordships will find that half a column of this page refers to the subject. I will not trouble 30ur Lordships with reading that section ; but I submit that it makes the position of the head master of Shrewsbury School as clear as it is possible for legal language to make it. Bis/ioj) of London.'] Will you inform the Committee how the college of St. John's, Cambridge, exercise this privilege at present ; is it through the head of the college, or is it through the whole body of the fellows ? Mr. Fityames Stejihen.] Through the master and seniors, my Lord. Bhliop of London .] How many of them are there ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] There is a body, I think, of nine seniors. Earl Stanhope] Is competition invited, or do they make a choice without competition ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] I think the candidates offer themselves. There have only been two appointments. At the last appointment there was another candi- date besides Dr. Kennedy, who nov>- holds the office. I was going to make some remarks upon the way in which they had exercised that patronage. Lord Lyttelton.] The Commissioners, I need not say, never intended to impugn the way in which the college had exercised their functions ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] They have not done so in the least. But, if it should appear that the college have exercised their patronage in the most exemplary manner, and that the Commissioners have insisted upon that fact ; if it should appear that that fact has been the very cause of the prosperity of the school, I think I am entitled to say that if the Commissioners had impugned it, their Report would have been more consistent than it is. I have now concluded the reasons I had for submitting to your Lordships that the burden of proof being upon those who would deprive St. John's College of its patronage, they had signally failed to make out their case. But I am now about to go a step or two further, and to assume the burden of proof upon m}^- self, and to show, from what appears upon the Report, from the evidence that has been given, and from the history of the school for the last 60 years, since (90.) F F 3 the 230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 26th May 1865. the year 1/98, that the present state of things has been the cause of the greatest possible prosperity to the school ; and that to interfere with it would, in point of fart, amount to something very like the ruin of the school, or that it might amount to that, that it would be at any rate a most dangerous measure. In the first place, therefore, I am now going to give the reasons why the existing arrangement should not be disturbed, and with a view to that I \vill again refer to the Report of the Commissioners. It appears that the his- tory of the Shrewsbury School, during the whole course of its duration and its existence, has been the history of a sort of struggle between the town of Shrews- bury on the one hand, and those who were interested in and took a wider view of the objects and advantages of the school on the other hand, as to whether the school should be a classical school for the purposes of superior education, or whether it should be converted into a local school for the purposes of what, in default of a better name, i must call commercial education. I shall dwell upon that, and show your Lordships to some extent how that is. But, in the first place, I should wisli to point out that the Commissioners find in the strongest way, and indeed it is the very gist of their Report upon that topic, that the school was not founded for the comparatively narrow purpose to which per- sons locally interested would wish to confine it, but that it was intended to take its place, as in point of fact for many years past it has taken a very high place, amongst the great institutions of the country intended for giving a superior education. The Special Report upon Shrewsbury forms the 9th chapter of the General Report, and will be found at page 303 of the first volume. I need not go minutely into the evidence upon which the Commissioners found their con- clusion as to the intention of the founders. It will be enough if I read their finding as to what the intention of King Edward VI., and of Queen Elizabeth was. It is in page 307. " It appears to us clear that the intention of King Edward and of Queen Elizabeth." There has been a great deal before that as to the deeds, and so forth, from which they collect that the intention was "to provide for the education, not only of the sons of the burgesses or inhabitants of Shrewsbury, but of the youth of the whole neighbourhood, by which we understand that the school was to be open to all who could conveniently attend it." Then follows a quotation from Lord Macaulay, to the effect that Shrews- buiy was a sort of centre, and they say that there is positive evidence that the school was intended to meet the wants of many of the persons in the neigh- bourhood, as well as of the burgesses of Shrewsbury, one of the reasons being, '' that the sons of many of the most distinguished persons in the kin^>dom, such as the sons of Archbishop Sandys, Sir Philip Sydney, son of the Lord Dejjuty, Sir Henry Sydney, and others, were sent there for education," and so forth. The general conclusion is, that the school was intended for the })urj)ose of affording education to such persons. Then, turning to page 3U6, I find this remarkable paragraph ; "The present time appears to us to be a critical one in the affairs of Slirewsbury School. The great reputation which it has acquired under Dr. Butler and Dr. Kennedy as a place of education, has sustained it in spite of many disadvantages ; but those disadvantages are now the more severely felt, on account of the competition of the new proprietary and other schools," and so on. " At the same time many of the inhabitants of Shrewsbury themselves are becoming dissatisfied with the position of the school, and with the regulations at present in force respecting it. A memorial, embodying the views of the Corp(n\ition, was presented to us on the occasion of our visit to Shrewsbury, trnd will be found in the evidence. The Corporation expressed their opinion that it was desirable to extend the benefits of the sc^hool, ' so as to include not only a classical education, and one suited for .scholars intended for the University, or one of the learned professions, but also an education of a liberal character, adapted for and suitable to the re- (piircments of the middle classes.' They also thought it would be desirable ' without entrenching on the rights and j)rivileges of the burgesses ' to provide 'an education free of charge, or at a reduced rate of payment, for residents within the borough for a certain period.' " My Lords, if there is any wish for further evidence as to the importance of the attempt which is now being made on the part of persons locally interested, to alter the character of the school, both from what was the original intention of its founder, and also from that which is desirable, with a view to the public benefit at the present time, such evidence will be found in abundance by reading SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUULIC SCHOOLS lilLL. [if. L.] 231 reading the evidence that was jriven at Shrewsbury by some inhabitants of 26th May 1865. Shrewsbury. I shall not trouble your Lonlships by reading it at any great length, but I will shortly refer to it. The inhabitants of Shrewsbury set forth in that evidenci' their views as to tlu; alterations which the school required. It will be found at p;igc 325, and the following jjages of the second part of the evidence, which forms the fourth volume of the Commissioners' Jlrports. There were Mr. Southani, Mr. ISrayne, Mr. Bloxham, Mr. Norton, and Mr. Parry, and some others of the council of Shrewsbury, who came in and deserilied what they thought would be a very small change. I do not wish t) trouble you by leading at length all that they say upon the subject, but I will take a few questions and answers from Mr. Southam's evidence. It is quite obvious that, if they could carry out their wishes with respect to the school, they would alter its character altogether from being a classical school to being what I may call a commercial school. This question is [)ut to Mr. Southam by Mr. Vaughan. " Is the education you desire to have that which is now given at Shrewsbury School ? — No. Is the educatiori you desire suited to the middle class ? — I wish an education which may be called classical, but I do not want a college education. Such an education as is not now given at all in the school ? — Yes. Shrewsbury is looked upon as a classical school ; I wish to ask whether you desire to have the education of the school altered to meet the wants of that particular class, or whether you W(juld be content with any kind of education now given? — I do not consider ihe education now given is suited to the son of a person in trade, unless he wishes to send him to college." Mr. Southam goes on to refer to there being a class of the chai-acter which Dr. Kennedy describes as the non -collegiate class established there, but he is not contented with that. Lord Clarendon asks him whether that suits him, and he says, " I do not .know that it quite carries out the view I have upon the subject. I believe it is only to a limited extent." At last Mr. Vaughan asks him, at question 358, " Whatever the education you require, it lies in your view that it should be given you as a gratuitous benefit, and you say the sum you would be content to pay would not be a sum covering the expense of the education your sons ought to receive ?— Certainly not, because I consider the school affords privileges we ought to enjoy the benefit of." Lord Lyttelton.'\ They are willing to pay 5 I., I believe? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.^ Yes, my Lord ; then Lord (.'larendon, asked this question : " You say that the continuance of the grammar school here keeps away other schools? — I am of opinion it does; thei-e are good schools of this kind at Siiiffnall, Newport, and Oswestry, but scarcely anything nearer. Suppose there was such a school as you contemplate at Shrewsbury, do you think you could get your son educated there at four guineas a year r- — No ; that is the very thing I am anxious this school should afford to me, because I have resided here all my life ; I am a large ratepayer, and have a large family, and those are just the cases which 1 think ought to come under the advantages the school ought to afford." Then Mr. Thompson says, " You think those are the objects contemplated by the founder of the school ? — That I am not competent to say ; the state of things at the present day is so entirely different from what it was at the time of the foundation of the school, that 1 hardly see how it is possible to make the founder's intention apply to it." Therefore Mr. Southam's viev\^ of what is desirable, is, that his son should get, for four guineas, an educa- tion which is worth 40. That is a very natural wish, but it is hardly a thing which a man could come to the Legislature of this country and ask them to give him at the expense of any school which has been existing, and applied to quite different purposes for 300 years past. I use that and other expressions, w^hich 1 will not trouble your Lordship with, but which are to be found in abundance in the Report, to show that a strong feeling exists at Shrewsbury at the present time to change the classical chai-acter of the school. Assuming that to be proved, and also bearing in mind the fact that the Commissioners throughout say that this is a crisis in the history of the school, and that they dwell upon the fact that such an attempt is being made, and that they insist, for reasons derived from the intention of the founder, as well as from general considerations, upon the importance of resisting it ; let me now go on to compare their conclusion with their premise. " Because we wish that this school should not become a local school, because we wish that (90.) F F 4 this 232 MINUTES OI' EVIPENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 26tli May 1865. ^jjjg gd^ool should he a classical school, because we wish to withstand the attempts which will he made by the inhabitants of Shrewsbury to convert it from a classical to a commercial school, let us transfer the appointment of the head master to the governing body, aiid let us increase the influence which Shi-ewsbury already possesses in the constitution of that body." That appears to be the course of reasoning of the Commissioners in regard to this matter. I venture to say that it is not one which will be satisfactory to your Lordships. In oi'der to show that this is the fact, let me go on to consider the scheme which it is proposed to substitute for the existing arrangement. Earl oi Derby.'] You are confining yourself to the appointment of the head master, and therefore what you mean by the existing arrangement is the appointment by the College of St. John ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.1 I was confining myself to that, my Lord, and was about to enlarge very slightly for a moment the basis of my ai'gument. I was saying, let me compare the existing constitution of the school with the con- stitution proposed. That will enable me to establish the proposition 1 laid before your Lordships, that, whereas the great object of the Report is to main- tain the classical character of the school, the inevitable consequence of their recommendations will be to destroy it. By the existing arrangement the govern- ing body of the school consists of a certain number of gentlemen resident in the county of Shropshire. The governing body is comjjosed of 12 members, the Mayor of Shrewsbury for the time being being one, and the others being repre- sentatives and different persons who are named in the Bill of 1/98. The vacancies are filled up by three jiersons being nominated by the trustees, of whom one is selected by the corporation. Tlien St. John's College appoints the master, and the Bishop of Lichfield has the jurisdiction to remove him. 'Ihat is the present constitution ; therefore the power of Shrewsbury in the school at present amounts to this, that the Mayor of Shrewsbury is a member of the governing body cw officio, and that the Corporation of Shrewsbui)^ have the right to appoint one out of the three who are nominated by the trustees. Let us now see what power would be given under the scheme proposed by the Bill : the scliedule says, " the governing body shall consist temporarily of the Mayor of Shrewsbury and the 12 existing elective governors, and five persons to be nominated within three months after the passing of this Act, viz., one by Her Majesty, and one by each of the four following bodies, viz., the Corporation of Shrewsbury ;" they, therefore, would get two members instead of one ; " the Masters and Fellows of St. John's College, Cambridge, the Master and Fellows of Magdalen College, Cambridge, and the Dean and Chap- ter of Christ's College, Oxford." Then you find below, " The governing body shall ultimately consist of 13 governors, nine to be nominated as follows, viz., three by Her Majesty, three by the Corporation of Shrewsbury, one by the ]\i aster and Fellows of St. John's College, Cambridge, one by the Master and Fellows of Magdalen College, Cambridge, one by the Dean and Chapter of Christchurch, Oxford, and four governors to be elected by the other members of the governing body for the time being." Therefore, in future, the Corpo- ration of Shrewsbury would have three members out of nine, and these three members, of course, would join in filling up vacancies. They would, in fact, have a third of the representation. Larl of Devo?i.] They would have three out of 13 ? Mr. Fitzjmncs Stephen.'] Yes, my l^ord ; but they would have three out of the nine who would elect the four. Earl o^ Devon.] The body, when perfectly constituted, would consist of 13 members ? Mr. Fiizjames Stcphcii] Yes ; ultimately they would have 3-13ths ; during the process of the change their powers would be increased. But it is not essential to my argument, aiul indeed it would be difficult to say in what proportion it would be increased at a given moment. Clearly, however, their poiver wonld be considerabh- increased ; and not only would their power be considerably increased, but I would submit to your Lordships this further consideration, they would be on the spot, they would be residents, they woidd be acting together, they would have a common obj(;ct of a character that the others would not have. With regard to the three colleges, two ai'c at one university, and the other at the other, at a considerable distance ; and it is difficult to say that there SKLECT COMMITTEI-: ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L. J 233 there would be any particular unity, either of conduct or of views, between 26th May 1865. them. With regard to the apj)ointment by Her Majesty, it is entirely a mat- ^ ter of speculation how that would be made. The persons appointed are to be persons distinguished for literature, and so forth ; but it is entirely a matter of speculation what would be the English of tliose most saered words " Her Ma- jesty ;" that is to say, who really would appoint, or wh;i,t sort of persons would be appointed. It will be in your Lordshi])s" knowledge, no doubt, that in some cases •' Her Majesty " is a decorous naiue for the borough members. And I have even known instances in which other persons, not even perhaps equally well qualified to make such an appointment, have really been denominated by that most magnificent phrase But, however that may be, three members would be appointed by the Cor- poration of Shrewsbury, ami those three members being on the spot, being resident, and knowing the feelings of the town, would certainly exercise a far greater degree of influence than any other part of the governing body. What, then, is the effect ? The effect is, that the Corporation of Shrewsbuiy almost comes to govern the school, in addition to having tlie right of appointing the master ; knowing the strong feeliugs that have been expressed by Mr. Southam, who comes forward as the spokesman of the burgesses, and seeing what the Commissioners themselves say as to the feelings of the town, and as to tliere being a crisis in the state of the school, can anybody doubt what the effect will be ? The effect will be, that the non collegiate class, under some form or other, it might be that of a commercial academy, would gradually increase and multiply. Lord Lytteltoii.] You are aware that the non-collegiate class has been abolished .' Mr. Filzjantes Slephe/t.] That may be so, my Lord ; but the Bill has not been passed yet. We think, if the Bill becomes law, it will probably be re-estab- lished with considerable improvements and alterations. That it should have been abolished may, for aught 1 know, have been perfectly right ; but what I fear is its re-establishment. Lord Lyitelton.] You are aware that the governing body could not re-estab- lish it ; that is left to the head master : Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] But the governing body appoint the head master ; the governing body have by the Bill (though that is not a matter I am par- ticularly interested in going into) under the 15th section a general power to make regulations ; how that general power to make regulations, when you come to interpret it, might be used is difficult to say, but that there would be a governing body who had a strong desire to carry out views of a particular kind with regard to the school, or that they would find a means of doing so under this clause, is a thing which I submit is within the experience of every one. The general management of the school is now within the control of the head master ; then the governing body would have considerable powers of inter- ference ; I do not say what the extent of those powers would be ; and not only so, but they would be put upon tlieir honour to interfere, because after being made they would not consider that they had been made for nothing ; they would try to enlarge their jurisdiction, and no doul)t, according to the ancient maxim they would be good judges for that purpose, having a strong view as to what should be the general policy of the school, and having also power of ap- pointing a person who would be likely to carry it out. I should be very much surprised if the wishes of the Commissioners that the school should retain its classical character could be really fulfiUetl in the face of such a change in its character and constitution. As I said, I have looked with considerable interest through the whole of the evi- dence, and through every part of the Report, in order to ascertain why this step should be taken, and why a change should be introduced, the effect of which, as I contend, would be to frustrate entirely the objects of the commission itself; the only matter which 1 have fnund which can be said to have even a remote bearing upon the subject is one which is easily explained, and which does seem to have suggested one part of tlie alteration which is proposed, namely, the alteration as to the governing body in giving St. John's College and Magdalen and Christ- church Colleges the right to nominate one member; there is a part of the (90.) G G evidence 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE fi6th May 1865. e^ddence of Dr. Kennedy which apparently applies to that, and 1 think that 1 may make some observations upon that. Dr. Kennedy will, as the Committee has said, be heard for himself ; but I will make one observation upon that, because the very slightest examination, and the most obvious explanation of it entirely clears up the notion that Dr. Kennedy when he gave that evidence at uU events had any intention of suggesting that the patronage of St. John's College should be interfered with. Earl Stanhope.] Where is that passage ? Mr. Fitzjames S(e])he}i.] At question 2.59 on page 322 of the evidence in the fourth volume. I would observe that Dr. Kennedy was never asked throughout a single question about the appointment of the head master to the school, and it is therefore natural to assume, in fact one must inevitably assume, that he gave his evidence under the impression that that arrangement was not to be disturbed ; thai he assumed when he was giving his evidence that the master of the school was to be appointed by St. John's College. It is with reference, I submit, to that view of the case that his evidence is to be interpreted. Dr. Kennedy is asked by Lord Lyttelton, '• Huve you any observation to make as to the government of the school r" — With reference to the government of the school, St. John's College has the appointment of the head master, and is not represented in the Board of Trustees ; and I would suggest that it would be very advantageous to the school if it were so represented, i.e., if the college had the right of jtppoiuting two or three of the trustees. As part of the governing body ? — Yes ; if the governing body, instead of being entirely self elected, were parti,- self-elected and partly nominated, so that the college and the town should both be represented. It is a feeling I have long entertained, ami one which, I think, majr reasonably be entertained, that a representation of those two bodies, St. John's College and the town, vi'ould be a very valuable element in the governing body. Do you conceive the governing body to be virtually iSelf-elected ? — ^ hey are certainly self-elected ; I have no doubt they elect most conscientiously. You would have three of the body nominated by the Corpox-ation r — Yes, but in the noininition of those three, I take it for granted they would select them from the chief members of their own body, the alder- men for instance ; I merely throw that out ; I think if there were three trustees to represent the college, and three to represent the town, it would conduce to a better feeling between the several bodies ; at present the college has great patronage here without any representation.'' Then Mr. Thompson asks him a little further on, " Do you think three would be a sufficient representation for St. John's College ? — 1 merely suggest that number ; it would not give them a domination, and I should think that undesii'able, in fact it would be opposed with such bitterness that it would be impracticable." That is the result of it. Then Dr. Kennedy says that he thinks, on the whole, that St. John's College ought to have the pow-er to appoint some trustees ; but surely, my Lords, there is not a single word in that to imply that Dr. Kennedy thinks it desirable also that St. John's College should not have the appointment of the head master. On the contrary, the reason why St. John's College ought, as he considers, to appoint part of the trustees, is that it does appoint the head master. He says, " therefore, you have patronage without representation, and you ought to unite the two ; but 1 confess that when you have taken away the appointment of the master, on the one hand, and the enjoyment of exhibitions, on the other hand, you have entirely severed the connection between St. John's College and Shrewsbur}' School, and what the sense or reason after that of giving St. John's College the right to nominate governors can be, passes my under- standing." While T am upon the subject of Dr. Kennedy's evidence ui)on this topic, I might quote a word or two more which has a very direct and considerable bearing at all events upon the ]>ro))osed scheme, though the scheme was not at that time before Dr. Kennedy, and though he could not have known its pro- visions. After having been asked various questions al)out ihe constitution of the school (it is the latter part of question 58) he makes this remark, it is not in ani-wer to a question, but appears to have been thrown in, " It is a little inconvenient to have the affairs of the school made the .subject of debate in a corporate body. I am not aware that any benefit arises from the power remaining in the Corporation to elect one of three persons." Then Mr. Thompson SELECT COMMITTEE ON TIIR PITRLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. I,.] 23'5 Thompson asks, " The governors and' trustees should be a distinct body? I do 26tli May J865. not mean to advance any opinion on this case, but merely to speak generally of a corporate body; they should be a resident l^ody. The locality should be recog- nised, but it would be undesirabk^ that such a body should be the sole Or dominant power." It is not a (pialification which fits them p.articularly, is his obvious meaning, for the govenunc nt of the school. And it is here proposed, substantially, to give them the power of ajjpointing three governors, three aldermen in fact. Tiien he says, " I ;im alluding to c;orporate bodies generally, not to the present corpoi'ation." Therefore, Dr. Kennedy's evidence, as far as it goes, is entirely opposed to any scheme of this kind. Your Lordships will have the advantage of hearing from Dr. Kennedy himself what view he takes as to the projTiety and expediency of this appointment. But there is one further question upon this matter ; and that is, how has this patronage, which it is intended to destroy, in point of fact, been exercised ? As I have already said, it has been exercised twice only, once in the case of Dr. Butler and once in the case of Dr. Keimedy, and it would be perhaps hardly decorous in me to insist to your Lordships upon the benefits which those two gentlemen have conferred upon the school, as the Connnissioners themselves say, in the face of the greatest disadvantages and difficulties, and especially in the face of the difficulty arising from the buildings l^eing so inconvenient and inadequate that it is very difficult to carry on the school in a satisfactory manner; yet, under those difficulties and disadvantages, the school has been raised by Dr. Butler and Dr. Kennedy to such a state of perfection, in regard to teaching, that it has obtained, I believe absolutely, I am very sure that it has relatively, a greater proportion of university distinctions, certainly a greater portion of dis- tinctions at the University of Cambridge, than any other school that the Com- mission inquired into, and certainly a greater number than many schools of greater name and far larger number. Add to that the fact that Dr. Butler raised the school; that down to the year 1798 it was not a distingviished school, and that it was not a distinguished school because the head master was obliged to be appointed from the burgesses of Shrewsbury, or with certain other narrow limitations. Add to that the fact that since 1 798 it has been a most distinguished school. To what cause can you attribute that but to the appointment by St. John's College ? Earl of Derby.'] When was Dr. Butler appointed ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.'] In 1798, and Dr. Kennedy was appointed in 1836. The consequence is, that those two most excellent appointments are all that have been made by St. John's College ; and now it is proposed to take away from them the power of appointing, because their appointments have raised the school from being an inconsiderable town school to one of the greatest schools in the kingdom. Lord Lytteltoii.] Do you mean that Dr. Butler was head master from 1 798 to 1836? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] Yes, my Lord. Lord Lytteltoii.] That is 38 years r Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] Yes, my Lord, and Dr. Kennedy has been head master for 30 years ; I \\ould submit, therefore, that the effect of these facts is to show that it would be impossible for any one to have exercised a better selec- tion than St. John's College have done. I would submit to your Lordships further, and I am sure I speak to those who by their personal experience will know that that is likely to be so, that there is hardly any corporate body likely to make a better selection for such a trust than a college so eminent and distinguished as St. John's College, which is the second college in the University of Cambridge, and of course reckons among its members some of the most eminent members of the University. I may add, with respect to Dr. Kennedy, the Commission having certified to what he has done in the matter, that the appointment was made, though Dr. Kennedy was not at the time a Fellow of St. John's College, and though a gentleman, who was a Fellow of St. John's College, was at the time a candidate, and though, therefore, the appointment of the other gentleman who was emi- nently qualified in every way to fill the ofiice would have created a vacancv, (90.) ' G G 2 arid 236 MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 26th May 1865. and given an additional fellowship to the students of the college ; that was, therefore, a case of pure patronage. Dr. Kennedy, in consequence of the way in which he conducted himself at Harrow School, was appointed to Shrewsbury. Surely it would be a strong measure, when that patronage has been exercised so creditably and so successfully as it has been, to seize this opportunity of taking it away, and committing it to the hands of a perfectly unqualified body. I have only one further observation to make upon this part of the case at all ; it might be said. We admit that the patronage has been well exercised, we admit that St. Johns College is a good college for the purpose, and we admit that, having a good head master appointed by the college is likely to promote the objects we have in view, but there is existing a local feeling which we must give way to. 1 do not say that that would have been very dignified, but it would have been at least intelligible. Therefore, it is fortunate that it happens that a petition has been presented to your Lordships by the governors and trustees of that school themselves, who, one would think, are likely to have some interest in the matter, and to know something about it. They say, " The humble petition of the Governors and Trustees of the Free Cirammar School of King Edward VI. at Shrewsbury, in the county of Salop." Lord Lytteltoit.'l Have the Committee that petition before them .' Mr. F/izjames Stephen.] I am informed that it is before your Lordships' House. 1 have a copy in my hand. " That the provisions contained in the said Bill, with reference to the formation of the future governing body of the said Grammar School of King Edward VL at Shrewsbury, with the unlimited powers proposed to be entrusted to that body, will not, in the o])iiiion of your petitioners, prove beneficial to the due management and control of the affairs of the said foundation : and further" (this is tlie important part for my case), "that as by the said Bill the connection which has hitherto existed between the colleges of St. John and Magdalen in the University of Cambridge and this foundation is proposed to be severed, your petitioners submit that no sufficient reason would exist for a portion of the governing body being elected by those colleges. Your petitioners, however, feel bound to state, that such connection has hitherto proved beneficial to the school ; and your petitioners strongly object to such tie being broken as is now proposed.' Therefore, apart from the feeling of the gentleman who wants the education for his own sons, there is not even local feeling in favovu' of this provision. The petition goes on, "That the proposed power to the future governing body, of interfering from time to time with reference to the discipline and course of education in the school, would tend to prevent gentlemen of the eminence as head master, under which this foundation has hitherto flourished, from accepting that office, and also would interfere injuriousi} with the proper authority of any head master when appointed." There are other matters which I need not go into with regard to the education of the sons of burgesses. With regard to the change in the nomination of the masters, 1 think I have now proved to your Lordships these things ; first, that there is no ground shown for it, and that the burden of proof is upon those who propose it ; secondly, from the Report itself, that there is the strongest ground shown against it, inasmuch as the danger which the Report apprehends is a danger of the school being converted from a classical school into a commercial one ; and, inasmuc;h as the influence which has raised the school into its present position as a classical one is due entirely to the appointment being made by St. John's College, i hope that, under those circumstances, your Lordships will feel that this clause, at all events, ought not to pass: and that whatever form the Bill may take, it should iuciiulc an exjjress declaration thai the right of St. .lohn's Colleue to u])point tlic bead master should remain as it was fixed by the Statute of 171>S. and should be in no way interfered with or impaired. So mu(!h with regard to th(! appointment of the master. Now. my Lords, I ))ro((ed to deal with the (piestion with regard to the exhibitions. There is no verv distinct accomit given that I have been able to find in the Keportof the Connnissioners i\.< to the orii^in ot those exhibitions. But I eonjeetinc . although the matter does not strike my mind as being one of very niuch importance, tliat the exhibitions were founded out of surpluses which accrued from time to time under certain ordinances made by Mr. y\shton. wIkiih I liave mentioned before, and which ordinances directed that exhibitions SELECT COMMITTtE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOf.S BII.l.. [n. L.J 237 exhibitions should be founded at St. Jolin's College. However, the manner 26th May 1865. in which they may have been founded is a matter of very little importance. There are six exhibitions, all of them older than the year 1/98, which are in connection with St. John's College, and the appointment to which is in the hands of the trustees of Shrewsbury School, and whi(;li are held at St. Johns College, and at St. John's College only. Earl of .Derby.] Do you say that there are directions in the ordinances of Mr. Ashton tlsat exhibitions at St. John's College should be founded ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.'] Yes, my Lord, there are. 1 will read you the passage of the ordinance ; it is the 12th of Mr. Ashton's ordinances. Earl of Derhy.] What is the date of it 'i Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] 1571, niy Lord. There are several directions, in the first instance, with regard to the buildings. Then, the 1 2th dii'ection is, " Item, after the edifices and buildings aforesaid so made and provided, then if it shall please God to increase the said stock remanent to the sum of 100 /. or above that, then there shall (with the said money, in convenient time and from time to time, as the said stock remanent sh;dl arise and increase) be purchased and bought so much lands, tenements, or hereditaments as will suffice for the founding, erecting, and maintenance of two scholarships and two fellowshij^s in the aforesaid College of St. John's, or as the said college, with the bailiffs and bur- gesses of the said town of Salop, with the head schoolmaster of the said school, shall condescend upon for the better provision of the said two scholarships and fellowships for such scholars as have been or shall be brought up in the afore- said free school, after the rate of 1 2 pence the week for every scholarship, and two shillings the week fur every fellowship."' That allowance seems to have been rather improved in subsequent times. And it appears, furtlicr. from tiie scheme which was settled in Chancery in the year 1853, ihat by some means, though it does not expressly say how, these two and also four iulditional scholar- ships, which are worth now 60 /. or 70 /. a year, had been founded after Mr. Ashton's death and before the year 1 798, when the private Act of Par- liament was passed. Earl of Derhy.] Those were exhibitions to St. John's College ? Mr. Fitzjames Stephen^ Yes, my Lord. I must admit, my Lords, that I am not in a position to deny this fact, that if you look exclusively to the interest of Shrewsbur\ Seliool, no doubt it is true that it would be more for the advantage of an exhibitioner to be able to go to any college that he liked, or that his i)arents might choose. That is an un- questionable proposition ; and, if it were worth while to quote an authority for it, Dr. Kennedy says so in so many words, but the statement of the fact proves itself. But I would submit to your Lordships in the first place, as a matter of observation, though that certainly is a restriction to some extent, yet it is a restriction the inconvenience of which is reduced to a minimum when the restriction applies to such a college as St. Johns. If it were a very small college, one could understand that It might be an inconvenience to be obliged to go there. But when the college is one of the most distinguished in either university, that restriction, such as it is, is reduced to the very smallest possible degree. in order that I may clear myself from possible observation upon that point, I may mention that there are also exhil)itions at Magdiden College, as to which you will hear counsel upon some future occasion, and which stands upon a different footing altogether. There is a question as to a deed, and the intention of the founder, and so forth, \\liieli does not apply to this ease. But I submit that it would not be right to look simply to the interest of Shrewsbur\ School in this case, but that you ought also to luok at the interests of St. John's College, because it max be considered that when these- scholarships were founded, founded as thev were under tlie direction of a great benefactor to the school, who was himself a member of Si. Johns College, it is highly probable, and, in fact, as every university man would fee!, it is almost certain that he had in his mind an intention to benefit not only the school, but the college also, and that that was the real motive of the foundation. (90.) G G 3 Now, 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 26th May 1865. Now, if your Lordships are to take away these exhihitions frotn St. John s CoK lege, let me ask whether you do not sanction a measure of which it is extremely difficult to see the extent. It is a simple case of exhibitions confined to a school on the one side, and to a college on the otlier. Now, the number of exhibitions ■which are in that position at the two univei'sities is sometliing which I have not taken the trouble to estimate. I would not inflict upon your Lordships the statistics relating to them if 1 could, but 1 have not tiken the trouble to ascertain them. This fact, however, is stated in the C^ambridge calendar, that there are no less than 123 exhibitions at St. John's College, and of tho-e no less than 45 are appropriated to different schools. In the same way I believe every exhibition, without exception, at Trinity College is also appropriated to some school or other. Is the Legislature to act upon the principle that hence- forth it is to be substantially illegal or impossible to institute any connection vrhatever between a given college and a given school, because no reason what- ever can be suggested vyhy those scholarships should be taken awa}^ from St. John's College which would not apply to every exhibiI;ion at every college in each university ? The University Commissioners of course had all that matter before them, and they considered the condition of tlie colleges, and they were ot opinion that many of the restrictions had become inapplicable in course of time, as regards birth, or as regards relationship, and so forth, to particular colleges. But surely they did not recommend that no college should be connected with any school. I must confess that I do not see why, as far as the reason of the thing goes, if you are to go as tar as this, you should not go a step further, and why you should not declare that no exhibition should be connected with any school, hecause just as it is undoubtedly the case that it is a benefit to an exhibitioner at Shrewsbury to be able to go to any college in either university, so it would be a benefit to parents in general to be able to send their sons to any school with this exhibi- tion. If you are not to connect a school witii a college, why are you to connect an exhibition vviih. a school '! Earl of Dei'by.] Ave not the exhibitions there provided out of the funds of the particular school and not out of the funds of the college ? Mr. Fitzjames Stej)/ien.] They are, but 1 say they are so appropriated with a reference to the school, and also with a view, in the mind of the person who so appropriated them, to the interests of the college. Therefore, if you are to go upon the question of appropriation of funds, and treat it as a matter of pro- perty in the corporate bodies, to which of course I could have no objection whatever, then I say it is an invasion of the right of property to take the exhi- bition away from St. John's College. If, on the other hand, you are to go, not upon the question of property but upon the question of the interests of the persons who hold those exhibitions, then the restriction to a school ought not to be maintained ; I use that as a sort of reductio ad abswdum. The effect would be to throw all the exhibitions into a sort of hodge-podge, and to allow- any boy who could get one anywhere to go to any school with it. As regards the severance of the connection between the school and the college, I submit that it is inflicting an injury upon the college which ought to be justi- fied by some special circumstances, and that there are no special circumstances in this case to justify it. The efl"ect of carrying out this principle would be, that each college at either university would be disconnected v.'ith any school. As regards an individual, it may be convenient to him possibly to go to any college ; but I would submit that there are many reasons in the character of the college, in the character of the studies, and in the associations which have grown up be- tween the school and the college that might make such a connection beneficial, and which actually do make the connection beneficial in this case. Therefore, it would be in itself an unreasonabk; thing to lay down so very broad a princij)le as that a college and a school are to be disconnected, unless the Legislature are prej)ared to go the length of applying that rule to both universities and every college they contain. These, my Lords, are all the observations I have thought it right to lay before your l.ordshijjs u])on this subject. I shall con(;lude by calling the master of St. John's C^oUege, Dr. I'atestm, to give evidence upon the subject of the connection between the college and the school. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h, lJ 2539 The Ueverend M^II.LIAM FIENRY BATESON, d.d., is called in ; and Examined Ijy Mr. Fityavie.s Stephen, as follows : I JQO. YOU are the Master of St. John's CoUeee, Cambridge ' ^"^^^ ^• lam. 1 201 . I believe you yourself were educated at Shrewsbury? I was there six years. 26th May 1865. 1292. And from Siirewsbury you went to St. John's College ? Yes. 1 293. And so went on from step to step until you became the Master of St. John's r Yes. 1-294. Earl Stanhope.] How many years have you been at the head of that college ? Since the year 18.57- 1295. Mr. FUzjumes Stcphni.^ Will you be so kind as to state your opinion with respect to the connection, and the effects of the connection between the school and the college upon the school ? My opinion is that it has been very beneficial ; I might mention, that several years ago, I think at the beginning ol the year 1 848, there were Chancery pro- ceedings instituted by the trustees of the school which are mentioned in the course of the evidence l;efore the Commissioners, in which it is stated that the college took a leading part. And Dr. Kennedy states that he thought it his duty to follow the lead of the college, and he considers that the result of those proceedings was beneficial to the school. 1 29b. That was the Chancery suit extending from 1848 to 18.53 .- Yes ; the object of these Chancery proceedings was not stated to the Com- missioners, but the main jiurpose of these alterations really was to establish a local commercial school out of the funds of the grammar school, and the object of the college in taking an active part in the proceedings was to prevent that, and we did Irustrate that intention 011 the part, 1 believe, both of the corporation and of the governors of the school. i'97. The result was, I think, that exhibitions were founded open to each university, with the funds ? The exhibitions that had been in existence prior to the A,ct of Parliament were retained for the college ; that is to say, the limitation to the college was retained. I have a copy of the scheme here which will show it. 1 298. What can you say as to the feeling in Shrewsbury with respect to the objects to which the school should be appropriated ? The feeling in Shrewsbur\ was very strong indeed, from 1848 onwards, that a more commercial kind of school should be established. The corporation have represented that to the Public School Commissioners in the strongest terms. 1 299. What do you consider is the effect of the power of the appointment of the master in St. John's College with respect to that ? My belief is that the object of Mr. Asluon, who may be looked upon as virtually the founder of the scliool (he was the first master), was to attach the college to the school, as an alliance for the purpose of strengthening the school against the local prejudices in favour of an inferior education, and it is in that spirit, I beheve, that the college has always exercised the powers that have been entrusted to it. 1300 Earl of Devon.'] Mr. Ashton was a member of St. John's College, was not he ? He was a fellow of St. John's College before he became master of Shrews- bury School. 1301 . Mr. Fitzjnmes Stephen.] With respect to the appointment by St. John's College, would they necessarily appoint one of their own fellows ? Certainly not ; St. John's College appoints both the head and the second (90.) G G 4 master; 240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. master ; I think the learned counsel lias not mentioned the second mastership, W. H. Bateson, jj^j. ^g j^a,ve had frequent appointments of the second master, though we have "•°' had only two of the head master since the year 1798. In those cases there has 26th May 1865. been a consideration of all the applicants, and there has been a competition for • the place a^ far as my experience is concerned ; I was only a bachelor of arts when Dr. Kennedy was apiiointed, and, therefore, I do not know what occurred at that time ; but I know that my tutor, Mr. Isaacson, now the Rector of Fresh- water, a very distinguished scholar, was understood to wish for the school, and he was postponed to the superior claims of Dr. Kennedy. 130-2. Although at that time Dr. Kennedy was not a fellow of the college? He was not a fellow of the college. 1 303. Earl Stanhope] Do you follow the same system in choosing the second master ; do you invite competition ? We have done so ; we are ujjon our oaths by the Act of Parliament to elect the best candidate. 1304. Mr. FUzjaints Stephen.] The other masters are appointed, I think, by the head master, I mean the third and fourth masters r I think there has not been an uniform practice with reference to those ap- pointments ; but I think those masters are all now appointed by the head master. 1305. Your opinion upon the whole is, that the connection between the college and the school tends to keep up the classical character of the school r I have no doubt of it whatever ; my belief is that the school would have great difficulty at times if there were not the College of St. John prepared to take part in the event of any such proceedings as those in the Court of Chancery in 1848, which might be easily renewed. 1306. ^?i\\ Stanhope.] Who are the gentlemen who elect the masters ; how many are there besides yourself? The eight senior fellows. 1307. Lord Lytte.lton.] That is the governing body of the college? Yes, the governing body of the college. 1308. Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.] Your connection with the school under the new scheme would be reduced to appointing a single member of the governing body r It might become so. 1309. Earl of Powis.] Did you go to Shrewsbury School in consequence of any local connection, or from its reputation as a public school ? I was a Liverpool boy, and I went there as being the best school in the neighbourhood. 1310. Bishop of London.] Do you think it desirable that the exhibitions should be confined to St. John's College ? If it were a question of the exhibitions only apart from the patronage it would not be so important a matter, but if we are to retain the patronage I think we should retain the exhibitions. 1311. You mean the patronage of the mastership - Yes, 1 think if we retain that it would be very desirable that there should be an infusion of the Shrewsbury element into the college to strengthen the tie which there has always been between the two bodies. 1312. I think you were secretary to the University Commission r I was, 1313. Did this matter come under the cognisance of the University Com- missioners ? I was the secretary to the Commission of Inquiry, not to the Executive Com- mission. The Commission of lufpiiry reported with regard to all preferential claims, and th(>y reported adversely to all other claims except those, of s(;ht)ols. 1314. They reserved the exhibitions ? They reserved all scholarsliii)s and exhibitions where schools had a claim. 1315. Earl SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUJiLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 241 1315. Earl of Z>e)-lji/.] How are the exhibitions in this case obtained ? The Rev. I believe they are given after an examination, if one is asked for ; that is Jl^. H. Bateson, stated in the evidence. Formcrl)^ those exhibitions were strictly limited to the "•°* burgesses, and, therefore, there were very few persons wlio co(dd compete ; but, ^^ , TZ or^ since the introduction of the scheme under the (Ji)urt of Cliuncery, the exhibitions, ^^ ''' in default of proi)er]y cpialified candidates, are open to the best candidate ; I believe that the contidence in Dr. Kennedy is such that the boys always understand one another as to who is tlie best, and they do not have an exami- nation i)ractically. 1316. The exhibitions are obtained as the result of an examination, if I understand it rightly r Not in practice ; that is only held in reserve in the event of the boys not agreeing. 1317. But the result of it is, that St. John's College receives from Shrews- bury a perpetual influx of the ablest boys in the school ? Yes, that is the case. 1318. And so far it is beneficial to the interests of the college ? Yes. 1310. Earl of Z)e?70H.] I believe I am correct in saying, thai none of the exhibitions tenable at St. John's are charged upon the estates belonging to the college r No, they all come from the property of the school. 1320. There is no property connection between the college and Shrewsbury School, is there ? None whatever. 1321. Earl of Powis7\ The property so conveyed to Shrewsbury School, I think you stated, was the gift of a former fellow of St John's College. It was supposed that Mr. Ashton obtained the gift of the tithes of Chirbury, which was a very large part of the endowment, 1 think about a third of it, and that it was in connection with this gift that he made the regulations, including those with respect to the exhibitions. 1322. Lord Houghton.'] Supposing that, by chance, there was no member of your college who wished for this ajjpointment at the time of a vacancy who was of a suitable age, and whom you thought would have the peculiar talents necessary for an eminent head master, what course would you take r We should make it known that the post was vacant, and we should receive any candidates who offered themselves. Dr. Kennedy was not a fellow of the college at the time he was appointed, and Mr. Butler, I may say, was not a foundation fellow ; he only held a minor appointment. 1323. You would think it your duty at all times to look out for a man specially fit for this situation ; and, if you had not one in your own bod\-, you would think it your duty to look out for a suitable person elsewhere ? Yes, it is clearly our interest, as well as our duty to do so. 1324. Earl of Devon.'] Is there any evidence to show that the tithes of Chirbury belonged to Mr. Ashton ; were they not in the Crown before they were given to the school ? I think they belonged to some dissolved religious house, but that Mr. Ashton really had them ; 1 speak now from antiquarian researches made by Dr. Kennedy. 1325. I think that did not come before the Commissioners in any way .' Yes, I think it is stated in the evidence of Dr. Kennedy. 1326. Bishop of Lo/idou.~] Is there any disadvantage arising from the scholars who are exhibitioners at St. John's College living together too much, so that they are separated from the other members of the college ? The college is so large that there has never been any spirit of coterie. 1327. '^iliere is nothing of that kind ? Ko, nothing of the kind. (The Witness is directed to withdraw.) (90.) H H 242 • MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. BENJAMIIN HALL KENNEDY, D.D.,is called in ; and Exaimned, as follows : The Reo, B. H. Kennedy, 1328. C/iairma».j WOULD you be so good as to state to the Committee D.D. that which you wish to inform them of? I am at your Lordships' disposal to give any information respecting the May 1805. gcijool, and to pursue any course in my examination which may he most con- venient to your Lordships. I have put down the heads, as they occurred to me, of what I thought desirable for the interests of the school. I was desirous of setting before your Lordships, that, in my humble opinion, some legislation is essential to the interests of the school. First, in order to declare its public and national character, and to alter its title, the meaning of which is now misunderstood. Secondly, in order to import into the governing body some representation of the Corporation and the Universities. Thirdly, in order to limit and settle the privileges of classes in the school, as between burgesses and non-burgesses. Fourthly, in order to empower and require the governing body to take immediate steps towards rebuilding the houses and chapel of the school. And fifthly, in order to do what I humbly conceive to be justice to the school in the matter of Dr. Millington's Trust and the scholarships at present appro- priated to Magdalen College, Cambridge. Those were the points I was desirous, if permitted, to bring before your Lordships' Committee. 1320. Earl of Derby. '\ It would be convenient that you should limit your- self as far as possible to the interests of the school, as far as they are affected by the Hill which is now before us. It is hardly competent to us to take evidence with regard to what different legislation is desiraljle. The question is how far the Bill now before us affects beneficially or injuriously the interests of the school ? I had that object in view, my Lord. I may have strayed beyond the pre- scribed limits ; if so, it would rest with your Lordships to correct me, I presume. 1330. Chairman^ Will you be good enough to state to the Committee what you propose with regard to declaring the public and national character of the school ? I could hardly define in what manner that should be done by the Bill ; it would be presumptuous on my part to do so. I was anxious that no doubt should be left by the Bill respecting what I beheve to be the truth, that the school w-as founded by King Edward the Sixth, and subsequently endowed by Queen EUzabeth, to be a pubhc school, open to all the subjects in the realm. 1331. Bkhop of London.'] Would not that object be attained by its being called a public school in the Dill ? Yes, I should think so- • 1332. horA Lyttclton^ Do you conceive that the character of the school could be recited in the Hill, or in what way could your object be carried out ? I do not pretend to define in what way it should be done. I think, if the school were called in any way distinctly a public school, and also, if that which I venture to think is misunderstood, the title of " Free Grammar School " was removed, and it were called the Royal School of the Sovereigns who founded it, the end would be attained. 1333- Chainnun.'] Do you not consider that the fact of its being included among the schools dealt with by this Bill, the title of which is, " Public Schools Bill," does give it the character you wish to establish for it? Yes ; I have thought so myself, but I have had some reason to think that that end has not been attained. 1 334. Can you suggest any words which you think would define it more clearly ? I am afraid I am not prepared to do so. 1335. Earl SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L ] 243 1335. Earl of TIarroivhj.'] Do \ou wish that any h-gislation shouUl take The lUr. place which should decide any legal question ut issue I)et\veeu the parties as ^^ ^ KewKdi/, to the rights of admission to the school r ^'^' Yes; T shoukl tliink it very desirable to define who the persons are who sGth Ma7~i 86 r. have a ckiim to gratuitous education, if gratuitous education is to be continued '" at all. 1336. In fact, incidentally, the settlement of those questions would very much answer your pur])ose, would it not ? That is one of the objects 1 have in view. 1337- Earl oi Derhi/.] Would you have the goodness to turn your attention to those clauses which particularly relate to Shrewsbury, namely, Nos. 23 and 24 ; No. 23 relates to scholarships at Shrewsbury, No. 24 relates to the abolition of the rights of the burgesses, and then in the schedule there is a new governing- body proposed to be substituted for the body which at present exists. Besides that, there is in the IGth section a general provision which we may interpret to mean that the head master should be appointed hereafter by Ihe governing body. Looking to those four points, the existing scholar- ships, the abolition of the rights of the burgesses, the alteration in the compo- sition of the governing body, and the power of the governing body proposed to be exercised over a new appointment of a head master ; perhaps you will give us, under those heads, the views you entertain as to how far this Rill, as now proposed, is likely to be beneficial or injurious to the school, or Mhat alterations you would suggest in the provisions of it ? With respect to the 15th clause, 1 am not prepared to suggest any particu- lar alterations. The only objection I entertain to it is, that generally one which has been so much advanced publicly and otherwise, that the control and discipline and the valuation of the studies of the school, 1 think, ought to re- main with the head master and not to be vested in the new governing body. I refer only to the valuation of the studies, not to the subjects of study ; I quite agree that the subjects of study ought to be prescribed by the governing- body, but 1 venture to differ from the Commissioners upon the question of the valuation of studies. I think the valuation of studies ought to remain with the head master. 1338. Did I rightly understand you to say that you had no objection to the 1 6th clause r I spoke of the 15th ; I took that first. 1339. I was asking you specifically as to the 16th clause, which vests in the new governing body the ap|)ointment of head master ? I beg leave to adhere entirely to the evidence of the master of St. John's College, which you have just lieard, and desire that his evidence may, to that extent, be considered as mine. 1 340. You think that for the benefit of the school it is desirable that the appointment of the head master should continue in St. John's College ? I do. 1 341 . Earl Stanhope.'] And of the second master also ? I should be very sorry indeed to interfere with the patronage of St. John's College with regard to the second master ; 1 tliink it would be much better that the patronage should remain with St. John's College if the taking it away would be considered in any way to weaken the alliance between the college and the school, which 1 think Is highly beneficial to Shrewsbury School. 1342. Duke of Marlborough.'] Supposing it would not have that effect, shoukl you, under other circumstances, be desirous of appointing the second master yourself ? Certainly ; I think one ought to have the appointment of those for the exercise of whose functions one is oneself responsible. I think it exc; edingly desirable that such an appointment should be in the head master. 1343. Earl Stanhope.] But if the choice lay between the college as it is now and the governing body as it is proposed, you would prefer the college ? Decidedly. (90.) H H 2 1344. Earl 244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE B hK^^ d ^344- ■'^^^'^ °f Poivis.] Do 3'ou consider that it is desirable that the second D.D.' '^' J^fister in a large school should be as dependent upon the head master as the assistant masters, or that his removal should t)e attended with more formality, 26th May 1865. and that he should have a more independent tenure of his position than an • assistant master ? I think in the present constitution of public schools in this country it is better that all the masters should be subject to the head master. 1345- Chairman.^ With regard to the 23d clause, will you give your opinion to the Committee as to how far that is an advantageous proposal? I entirely agree with the general recommendation of the Commissioners as embodied in this Bill, subject to the question which remains open of retaining or abolishing the privileges of the burgesses to gratuitous education. If they were retained, they would be so much deducted from the open scholarships which are here proposed. 1346. I am not sure whether you stated that you had any general statement you would prefer to make, or whether you would like to be questioned r I shovdd far prefer that your Lordships should address questions to me if it consists with the wishes of your Lordships. 1 347. Earl of Devon.'] Do we understand that you have a statement pre- pared ? I have no statement prepared except that which 1 have placed in your Lord- ships' hands ; I wish to state with respect to that pamphlet, that it was not written with reference to this Committee, or for the purpose of influencing this Committee : it was in the press before the Committee sat. 1348. Lord Lyttelton.'] It refers to the Bill, I think? It refers to the Lill, certainly. 1349. Chairman.'] Will you state to the Committee what changes you wish to see imported into tlie governing body ? That is a very difficult and a very delicate point I admit. With regard to the nominations by the corporation, I merely name the corporation, because although I do not consider corporations in general the most desirable bodies to exercise functions of that kind, yet the town being interested in it, and the school being situated in the town, I think it highly desirable that a good feeling which I have always endeavoured to promote, as far as lay in my power, should exist between ihe town and the school and its masters:. I thought, therefore, that the representation of the feelings of the town in the governing bod)', to the extent of three governors appointed by tlie town (and I had no means of insuring that, except by naming the corporation;, would be a desirable element to introduce. But if the dangers which have been threatened by the learned counsel, who has addressed your Lordships to day, were likely to be realised, I should then certainly be very sorry indeed to see such a scheme carried out. 1 350. Earl of Derby.] We understand the present governing body, to be a number of gentlemen connected with the neighbourhood, and that the vacancies are filled up by the trustees, naming three persons out of whom the corporation select one, and that the corporation are represented upon the governing body by the mayor ? Tlie corporation are directl}' represented by the mayor. I have reason to think that the governing body, consisting as they do partly of the leading gentlemen of Shropshire, think it their duty (1 look to my experience of their proceedings) always to elect some few leading gentlemen connected with the town more immediately, in order that the feelings of the town may be repre- sented ; I believe that they have most conscientiously made such elections hitherto. 1351. Cliairman.] In the Bill it is pi'oposed to make two arrangements with regard to the governing body, one of a provisional character, and the other of a permanent character. Do you a])prove of those two arrangements ? I state in the ])amphkt that I should not desire any change whatever in the present governing body, as far as the relations between the masters and the governing Ijody ar(! concerned, but that I am afraid, looking to the oath wiiich the present governing body have taken when they entered upon the office, that they SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 245 they do consider themselves (perhaps I ought not to say I am afraid of it) The Rev. bound us far as possible to maintain the existing riglits and privileges, and tliat ^' ^^' ^'^'^^^'^Vy if any alteration in those were considered by your Lordships' tlouse to be '"' desirable, it would be necessary for you to enact it, or for an executive com- 26th May 1865. mission to have power to do so. ' 1352. Therefore, thinking that some changes are dc;sirable, do you think that the changes proposed in the 7th schedule are those you would recommend ? With respect to the composition of the governing ])ody I may remark that, if you should be of opinion that the exhibitions connected with Magdalen College ought to be disconnected from it, it would seem that tlie master and fellows of Magdalen College would have no spe(;ial interest in the school what- soever in future. With respect to the Dean and Chapter of Christ Church, I am very desirous of making a statement to your Lordships : I think tliat Shrewsbury School benefits by its connection with Christ Church, Oxford. There are the Careswell exhibitions which connect the school with Christ Church, Oxford, and which are exceedingly benetieial ; inasmuch as a boy pro- ceeding to Christ Church can sit for a fellowship at any college in the univer- sity, while his holding one of those scholarships gives him, hy the kindness of the Dean and Chapter, a claim to a position in the college with regard to rooms, and commons, and so on. I think, therefoi'c, that the Careswell exhibitions are beneficial, and I should be very sorry to see them disconnected from Christ Church ; it is very desirable, indeed, that that connection should exist. 1353. Bishop of London.] Are we right in understanding that you think it desirable that three members of the corporation of Shrewsbury should be governors of the school ? I do not think that they should be necessarily members of the corporation, but tiie corporation, as representing the town, appears to be the only body that could no ;!iinate representatives of the town to sit upon the governing body ; that was the reason why I mentioned them. 1354. But there are at present representatives of the town on the governing body nominated by some one else. No, they are a self- elected body. 1355. The town is very fairly represented now, is it not ? That is my opinion. '356. Would not the governing body be more likely to be exclusively local if they were actually elected by the mayor and corporation ? Now the corporation has the right of electing one of three persons suggested by the governing body, and I have observed on various occasions when those elections have taken place that debates have arisen in the corporation, and some angry feeling has been expressed that persons residing in the town have not been presented to them for nomination. 1357. Does not that imply that in all probabiUty all the three persons nomi- nated by them under your scheme would be residing in the town, and members of the corporation ? Very hkely they would ; but if a qualification were required doubtless per- sons fit to hold that oflice in the town would be found. 1358- What sort of a qualification do you allude to ? A property qualification. 1359. Not eminence in science or literature ? No. 1360. Earl Stanhope.] I have not been able to understand from your answers, whether, on the whole, you are inclined to approve of the new governing body proposed in this /th schedule ? I am not able to give a very distinct opinion upon that point, because sug- gestions have been made, and dangers have been threatened, which, if indeed they were to be the result of this alteration, I should consider to be very fatal to the interests of tlie school. If, for instance, it were to be understood as (90.) H H 3 being 246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. being a thing likely to happen, that the nomination of the Crown would be- B. H. Kennedy, come the nomination of the Borough Members, a thing which I dare not [__ suppose for a moment, I should think it very fatal indeed to the interests of 26th May 1865. the school. 1301. Tlie question before the Committee is, whether the 7th schedule, as it stands before us, can be ()roperly recommended to the House for adoption. You liare no doubt read that schedule with attention. I should like to know whether it meets your wishes or not ? I should rather object to it than venture to recommend it ? 1362. Earl of Carnarvon.'] Do I understand from your answer that you desire to see any change in the governing body apart from the probability or improbabihty of legislation. Purting aside all other questions, do you, from your own point of view, desire to see a change made in the existing governing body ? I have no wish at all to see any change in the existing governing body. If these alterations are made, which I consider essential for the interests of the school, I should be very glad then that the existing governing body should remain ; but the question of doubt to me has been whether the existing governing body would'be likely to carry out the necessary changes. ) 263. Chaiivum.'] It is your opinion, then, that the existing governing body is not well calculated to carry out the changes which you wish to see established? I think not. 1364. Eavl Stcuihojje.'] Vou stated, if I understood you rightly, that they were prevented from doing so by an oath which they had taken } I think they are partly prevented by their oaths, but I cannot speak with certainty ; it is a surmise of mine. 1365. Earl of Harrowhi/.l You think that if they were liberated from those obhgations, they would be inclined to adopt the measures which you consider to be iuij)rovements ? I am quite sure that there is a considerable element in the present governing body who are ])repared to carry out the changes which would be calculated to make the school what it ought to be, a larij,e national school. 1 366. If they could be liberated from those obligations which they consider themselves to be under, ycu think they woidd carry out the changes ? I think the majority of them would. 13(17. Viscount Stratjord dc Rcdctiffe.'] Is it ycur opinion from the local posi- tion of the members of the corporation who would be part of the new govern- ing hody, that they would exercise a degree of influnce superior to those of other persons who would be called upon to take i^art in the governing body ? Not if those other persons did their duty , as I should hope they would. 1368. Considering the distance from the place of the other members of the governing body, and other circumstances, do you consider, from your long practicable experience, that in effect the members of the corporation would have the leading influence, so as to be able to carry out any views of their own which they might have. There miKht be such a danger ; I can hardly feel sure that it would be realised. i3r)(). May I a-k whether there is reason to believe, that the corporation as representing the town, wishes to change the character of the school, and to give it more of a mer(;antile character than of a classical character l I should think that the majority of its members do, but I have no doubt there is a minority for the opjjosite view. 1 370. Karl of 7)r/7;//.] Did I umlcrstaiid you rightly to say just now that you thought, if they were liberated from their present obligations, the majority of the present trustees woidd be desirous of carrying out your views ? I have no reason to be certain of it, but I think it is very probable. 1371. I hold in my hand a ])aniphlet which I believe was written by you, which contains tliis sc;nten(!e, " Now of the existing trustees, I may venture to say witliout much doubt, that nearly all are hostile to the proposed changes ; to these SELECT COMMITTEE ON TIIK PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll. L.] 247 these would be nddod the nominee of the corporation, thus giving, say, 10 or II y^g r^.^ trustees certainly hostile to change, and six or seven possibly favoural)le to it." D. H. Kennedy, How do you reconcile that statement in the pamphlet with the statement which ^•^• you have just made to the Committee ? ~ I think all change is opposed, from a dread of (U'rtuin changes. I think the ^ ^ °'^ '^ ^' present opposition to change arises from a fear of certain changes being carried into effect. 1372. "What are those certain changes to which you refer? As far as 1 can judge, I think the governing body consider themselves bound to maintain the rights and privileges of classes in the school. 1 think they consider that they are there for that purpose to a great extent, and that as far as lies in them they are bound to carry them out. 1373. Y,ovA Lyttelton.] Do we understand your opinion to be that it would be better for the school that all local privileges as to education should be abolished ? There are again two sides to that question. There would be a very angry feeling created in consequence of that abolition, which might possibly operate against the school for the time being in the town. Of course 1 am hostile to the existence of those privileges on principle. 1374. I mean as a practical question ; jou are aware that the recommenda- tion of the Commissioners was that for a period of 25 years those local privi- leges should be restricted, and that after 25 years they should be wholly abolished ; are you prepared to support that recommendation ? I should certainly be prepared to support it on abstract principles. 137,",. Earl of Derby. \ Should you be prepared to support it on practical principles ? I think that the ultimate abolition of those privileges is desirable. 1376. Duke of Marlborouqh.l Did I understand you to say that the trustees at present of Shrewsburv School take some oath, or make some declaration pre- viously to undertaking their office r There is an oath prescribed by Act of Parliament. I have not got the Act here. 1377. You mean the Act passed in Gcoi-ge the 3d's reign in 1/98 ? Yes. 1378. Will you inform the Committee what is the provision of that Act with ^ard to the oath ? 1 cannot tell now. 1379. There is a declaration, in fact, an oaxh, that the trustees have to take before exercising their functions ? There is. 1380. Is it your opinion, then, that as the ti'ustees are at present constituted by persons who have taken that declaration, they in consequence of that declaration do not feel themselves at liberty to travel at all beyond what they may consider to be the strict purposes for which they were appointed ? I can only speak from impression ujoon that subject. Such is my impression. 1381. Is it your impression, then, that supposing by any Act of Parliament they were relieved from such an obligation, there is a general wish among the trustees to travel into other modes of applying the property of Shrewsbury School, so as to be generally beneficiiil to the public at large ? Again I can only speak from impression. I am sure that an element among the trustees exists who would take that view ; whether they would prevail or not is more than I can venture to say. 1382. Are the trustees as at present constituted limited in their selection of persons to fill vacancies to persons residing within the county of Skropshire ? Yes, they are limited to persons residing in Shropshire. 1383. Do you think that if the permission were given to enable them to select persons from other parts indifferently, they would avail themselves of the per- mission ? I should think probably not. (90.) H H 4 1384. Is 248 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 1384. Is there any difficulty in finding persons sufficiently eligible to exercise B. H. Kennedy, the functions of the trusteeship in the county of Shropshire ? °'°' None whatsoever. 26th May 1865. 1385- ^av\ SfcDihnpe.'] You stated just now, in reference to the 15th clause, that you thought that the subjects of study should be a matter subject to the determination of the governing body ? Generally, they are defined by the scheme. 1386. As defined in this scheme ? Yes. 1387. Has it ever occurred to j'ou that there might be an advantage in an executive commission thus far, that if each governing body was to select the subjects of study for each particular school, there might come to be a con- siderable divergence betu een the different public schools ; while an executive commission, without establishing an absolute uniformity, might preserve a general system of education throughout the schools. Have you considered whether, in that point of view, you see any advantage in an executive com- mission ? I have not considered it sufficiently to be able to say. 1388. Lord Li/ttelton^ With regard to Clause 15, will you kindly point out what powers there are relating to the discipline of the school, which Clause 15 gives to the governors, and which you think ought to be given to the head master r I think there are one or two. 1389. Bishop of London.'] Take the attendance at Divine Service, for example, do you think that is a matter that would more properly fall under the governors or under the head master ? Under the head master. 1390. Lord Lytlellon.] Are there any other matters in the same category? The questions relating to the boarding houses are very delicate and difficult, but 1 am not prepared to suggest any alterations. 1391. Bishop of London.'] What do you say to the subjects of study ? They are defined by the scheme. 1392. Lord Lyttelton.'] What do you call the valuation of the subjects of study ? I think what I call the valuation of the subjects of study should rest with the head master. 1303. Bishop of Loudon.] What do you mean by the valuation of the sub- jects of study ? It was stated in the report of the commissioners that the governors should have power to valuate the marks to be given. 1394. Would not the mayor and his two brethren from the corporation think that commercial education ought to have the highest value ? The mayor would not necessarily be a member of the governing body ; I think the probability is tliat the corporation would nominate persons of sub- stance and station. 1304. Chah-man.] You stated that your third object was "in order to limit and settle the privileges of classes in the school ;" I understand you to have alread}' stated to the Cunnnittee that you would wish ultimately to see those privileges abolished. 'i'hc question being put to me as it was, I could not give any other answer honestly. 1306. Earl of Derliy] You state that you consider it would be desirable to abrogate those privileges ; how far do you consider that the aljrogation of those ])rivilcges, even at the end of 25 years, is consistent with the original intentions of the founder ? It has never occurred to me to think that the founder has given any privileges to any class whatsoever ; that is to say, regarding Edward the Gth as the founder. T397. Perhaps SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [n. L.] 249 1 397. Perhaps that will give you an opportunity of stating what, in your view, The l!ev. were the intentions and objects which the founder contemplated ? i^- II Komedy, I think that he intended these schools to be centres of education to the ""• difiFerent districts of England, looking to the localities in which they were 3^^ M^iFGs. 1398. Duke of Marlborough.^ When you say "these schools" you mean this school, I presume ? ihe scho(ds established by King Edward the Sixth. 1 309. Earl Stouhope.'] You mean all England when you speak of the different districts r Yes ; I think that was his intention. 1400. Earl of Pou:is.~\ Do you consider that the local privileges were im- ported into the constitution of the school in consequence of the conflict between the burgesses of Shrewsbury and Mr. Ashton in later times? 1 think a compromise was effected by Mr. Ashton acting for the Crown with the municipality who then exercised the trust, and who took advantage of that trust to obtain certain privileges. 1401. Yf\ke oi Marlboroiujh] You found your opinion as to what was the intention of the founder very much upon the construction of the word " libera " in the expression ' libera scho/a," on which you have made some lengthened remarks in your pamphlet, do you not? My feeling in regard to that is rather negative than positive ; I think that libera does not mean gratuitous; what it may be understood to mean is a matter rather for lawyers to define than for myself. 1402. You would inl'er, however, from the construction of the word " libera' that it does not mean gratuitous education. That is my impression. H03. '["ben. in lact, your reason for agreeing with the proposition in the 23d clause of the Bill would be, that you do not consider that the intentions of the founder are violated by the provisions of that 23d clause ? I do not think the founder has declared any intentions whatever as to the privileges of classes. 140^. I should lilce to ask you, having studied this subject a good deal, whether you think the same argument would apply in the cases of Rugby and Harrow, as in this case ? No , 1 think we ai'e in a very different position from those school Rugby and Harrow are private foundations founded with the funds ot private individuals, and founded nith the English word "free" in their deeds, showing an intention of giving a gratuitous education to certain local classes who were specified. 1405. \"ou observe that the Bill proposes to deal exactly in the same way with the foundations of Rugby and llarrow, as with Shrewsbury ? Yes. 1406. Therefore you would not feel justified in saying that that was the proper way of dealing with those foundations upon the arguments which justify you in saying so with regard to iShrewsbury ? I think that Rugby and 11 arrow want the argument I ventured to urge as regards Shrewsbury, liut there are other arguments of great force, which might be urged in those cases. 1407. At all events, as regards the intentions of the founder, you think you are not restricted by any purposes of the founder as regards a tree education to be given at Shrewsbury ? Certainly. 1408. Earl Stonbopt.'] Did not the founder, in the case of Shrewsbury, specify any districts to which the preference was to be given as above other districts? When I speak of the founder in the first instance, I mean Edward the Sixth, and his Letters Patent or Charters define nothing whatever as to privileges. (90.) I I 1409. Earl 250 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tfie Rev. 1409- Earl o{ Derby.'] Will you explain to the Committee what you meant B. H. Kennedy, by a compromise entered into by Mr. Asbton, and what was the effect of that "•°' compromise ? a6th May i86o. ^^^ indenture and ordinances in Queen Elizabeth's reign I conceive to have . been the result of a compromise between the Crown, represented by Mr. Ashtoa and the municipality who had the trust at the time, and that the indenture was a surrender on the part of the municipality of their right as trustees, and the ordinances were the statutes drawn up partly by the Corpoi-ation and partly by Mr. Ashton, and mutually submitted to by those parties. 1410. You do not dispute the fact that those parties had the power to enter into that compromise ? No, 1 do not. 1411. And under that comproniise the privileges of the burgesses have been regulated ever since, have they not r As regards the exhibitions, and as regards the gratuitous education, the ordi- nances say nothing ; there is a total silence upon the subject. 1412. I asked you to have the goodness to explain what the compromise was? There were no statutes existing before that time ; there were three parties to the new arrangement which was then made, the Corporation, the Bishop, and Mr. Ashton, representing the Crown. In the indenture, these parties mutually a^ree to certain conditions. 1413. I want to know what those conditions were ? The conditions were, that the Corporation should submit to the ordinances which should be drawn up by Mr. Ashton ; those ordinances are before your Lordships. 1414. And in pursuance of this agreement, Mr. Ashton did draw up certain ordinances, and those ordinances contained the grant of the rights which are now claimed on the part of the burgesses of Shrewsbury ? Yes, to the exhibitions. 1415. Earl of Powisr\ How did the gratuitous education arise ? There is nothing said about it in the original charter, or in the ordinances, and it appears for the first time distinctly in the Act of 1/98. 1416. Earl of CV/rwarwcM.] You said once or twice you wished to see the ultimate abolition of the gratuitous education ; will you state to the Committee upon what grounds you come to that conclusion? I have hardly ventured to say I absolutely wished it ; I think it abstractedly desirable, and if it were left to me, or if I had in any way any influence in the matter, 1 should leel myself bound in principle to carry it out ; I do not think that privileges of tiiat kind are desirable in themselves. 1417. Has it operated practically to your knowledge as head master of the school, to the disadvantage of the school ? Not at all. I have not the slightest objection to it. In the pamphlet (which I am aware is not in evidence before your Lordships) I have stated that I feel no objection to it, and that I as head master, should have no reason to complain of the continuance of the privilege. I accepted my office upon the condition of teaching the boys gratuitously, and I should be A-ery happy to go on longer doing the same thing. The head master has no private interest in the abolition of the privileges, but I think they tend to create and foster a local feeling, and somewhat to narrow our bounds. 1418. Bishop of London.] How many boys are there enjoying a gratuitous education at ])resent ? Not above 23 or 24 at this time. MU) And there is no portion of the funds of the school appropriated to maintain them ? None whatever. 1420. So that they do harm to nobody? They do harm to no one ; they are quite innocuous. 14J1. Earl SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [u. L.] 251 1421. Earl of Harrowhyr\ Is I here not in the ordinances of Queen Elizabeth The Iter. a provioion exempting the sons of burgesses, if not " of ability," from school B. H. Kennedy, fees ? n. n. Yes ; that relates to entrance fees ; it does not relate at all tf) what is paid „.,T| ^a /• 1 .• '^ aotli May ic6«. tor education. ' ° 1422. It is only the entrance fee? Just so. 1423. Earl Stanhope.'\ Of what amount is that? A very small amount indeed ; the largest payment for a lord's son, according to the terms of the ordinance, is lOs., and it gradually tapers down to 4 d. 1424. Earl of Harrowbi/.'\ Therefore your interpretation of the meaning of the word " libera " is that it was free from the jurisdiction of a superior corpora- tion ? I presume that to be the meaning, bexiause I do not know how it should otherwise be interpreted. I venture to contend that " lidera " generally in these charters means exempt from, some servitude or other. In such cases as this it would mean the servitude of colleges, corporations, or chapters. 1425. You would support your view that " libera " did not mean free in the sense of gratuitous by the fact that in tht'se early ordinances of the reign of Queen Elizabeth a scale of payment was inserted, by wliich only certain boys not of ability were exempt from paying an entrance fee ? Yes, I suggest that as one argument. 1426. You strengthen your argument by that fact? I do. 14^7. Earl of P(3?m.] Do you consider that the obligation to give an absolutely free education to the sons of the burgesses cripples unduly the funds of the school ? Not at all. 1428. Eavl of Dev nil.] I wish to ask you a question with regard to another point ; you recollect that when we had the pleasure of seeing you before us as Commissioners, you were aslied with reference to the restrictions of exhibitions to particular colleges, more especially with reference to the restriction to Mag- dalen College, Cambridge, and you expressed your opinion that, for the inte- rests of the school, the scholarships then restricted to Magdalen College had better be thrown open ; you were further asked whether you extended that opinion to St. John's College, and to Cbristchurch, Oxford, and you said, no doubt it would be better for the school if they were unlimited ; do you retain that opinion still ? No ; 1 have changed that view. 1429. Upon what ground ? Because I consider the alliance of the two colleges to be serviceable to the school. 1430. That was not present to your mind when you gave your previous evidence '! No. 1431. Bishnp of Londim.'] Do you apply thnt statement of your present opinion to Magdalen College as well as St. John's College ? Certainly not. 1432. Is not Magdalen a very small college ? Very small. 1433. How many exbibitioners do you send there ? Four. 1434. How many students are there, there? From 30 to 40, 1 think. i43.> It is quite a different case from that of St. John's College, is it not ? Very different. ^ •, , (90.) 112 .436. Lord 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. 1436. VtovA Lyttellon.l^ You do not hold the same opinion with regard to ^' ■^•/^"'^''•^' St. John's College as witli regard to Magdalen ? "" No ; in the case of Magdalen I have already put forward the strong claim we 26th May »86r. ^^^^^ to have those scholarships thrown open on account of the fellowsiiips "** being alienated from us. 1437. Earl of Powis.'] Supposing the strong connection existing between the school and St. John's and Christchurch to remain as regards the exhibitions, do you think then that a nominee of Ciiristchurch and a nominee of St. John's College on the governing body would be a useful element in addition to the existing trustees r Yes, I think so. 1438. }^.sit\oi Devon.~\ You object to some portion of the power which it is sought by the Bill to entrust to the governing body of the school, especially with reference to the subjects of study and other points connected with dis- cipline ; no doubt you are aware that the Commissioners attached a qualifica- tion to the giving of those powers to the governing body, namely, the require- ment that the head master should be freely and fully consulted upon those points ; supposing that in the Bill some such qualification were introduced, would that, in your mind, remove the objection you have stated ? I do not think it would. 1439. Earl of Powis.~\ Do you wish to strike out from the Bill the subdivision 6 in Clause 1 5 ? The subjects of study should be prescribed, I think, by the head master. 1441). Earl Sta7ihopt.~\ Did you not, in the earlier part of your evidence, say, on the contrary, that the subjects of study might be properly decided upon by the governing body ; Yes ; 1 think the subjects of study should be prescribed generally by the governing body. 1441. Then why do you say at present that the subjects of study may be properly prescribed by the head master ? I did not mean to say that. I meant the valuation of the studies. I did not mean to make that assertion. 1442. Earl of Potiis.'] How would you propose to alter or vary of the words in that line, " the subjects of study and the general discipline and manage- ment of the school ;" what limitations should you propose to put upon it ? I have not looked at the Bill with a view to making distinct amendments in it. 1443. Lord Lyttelton.] Does it occur to you that the whole of the discipline and management of the school should be left to the head master r I think so. 1444. Are you aware that the Report of the Commissioners does not contain this Clause No. 6 ? I think it is a very difficult and deUcate question, and I should rather prefer things remaining as they are. 1 445. Duke of Marlborough I] Is there at present any class for physical science at Shrewsbury ? There is not. 1446. Are you aware whether it is in the intention of the governors to esta- blish one r I think that they would not interfere with me. I have been waiting for the results of the legislation on this subject, before taking any steps in so difficult a matter. We have hardly come into a position to establish a class of that kind, but I should be very desirous of seeing it done. 1447. In what way are you not in a position i) establish it ; are you in want of funds ? \v% I think wc are in want of funds ; we hav no distinct provision for a master to teach such subjects. I have no doubt thai, if the subject were brought before tlic trustees, they would be desirous to afford facilities for carrying out that object. 1448. Earl SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL, [h. L.] 253 1448. Earl of Harrowhy.'] Have you ever considered how tlie two classes of The Rev. subjects could be best combined in a public school ? ^' ^ Kennedy, I have not given such particular consideration to that point as to be prepared ° °- to give an answer to the question ? agth May 1865. i44() Viscount Stratford de Reddiffi.] I believe the basis of education at Shrewsbury is classical ? It is. 1 450. Meaning by " Classical" the study of Greek and Latin ? Yes, together with English ? 1 4.5 1 . Is Hebrew taught there ? It is not. 1452. Vou have introduced modern languages to a certain degree, have you not? French has been taught in the school since I became head master. J 45.3- Is the learnh)g of French compulsory ? Yes, it is compulsory. 1454. Why do you limit the study of modem languages to French ? Only from the fear of taking in too many subjects, and thus frittering away our power ; I prefer German to French, myself. 1455. If you saw reason to extend the study of modern languages, may I ask what are the languages you would recommend ? German first. 1456. Why not Italian ? I should have no objection at all to ItaHan if we could find time for it ; I should think it very desirable. 1457. Probably on account of its great literature ? Certainly. 1458. You would give the preference to it in some respects ? Yes. 1459 Earl oi DerOi/.l Is not Italian very readily learned by anybody who has a competent knowledge of Latin ? No doubt it is. 1460. hord Wrotteslej/.'] I understand that you are not hostile to the Intro duction of physical science into the studies of your school ? By no means. 1461. You are favourable to it ? Certainly. 1462. You are looking forward to the period at which those studies may be introduced ? I am. 1463. Earl of Der%.] You are looking forward, however, to a period when you will not be responsible for the management of the school } My own term of office is limited to one year now. 1464. Lord Lyttdton.'] I understand you would rather wish to see an exe- cutive commission appointed to negotiate with the governing body of Shrews- bury School as to further reforms ? That has struck me as tbe most likely way to carry out the ends which the school should have in view. 1465. Earl of Fowls.'] Supposing there was no difficulty with regard to funds, do you think that in a school like Shrewsbury it would be possible to establish Tower classes which would perform the part of a private school for those who were afterwards to pursue classics and go to a university, and which would at the same time afford a good grounding of education to those who would afterwards turn to business or commercial pursuits ? I had thought it was possible to a limited extent, provided the class was (90.) I I 3 limited S54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Rev. limited in number ; and that was the ground on which I had established the B. B. Kennedij, non-collegiate form which, in consequence of the Report of the Commissioners, »• "• I thought it right to withdraw. 26th May 1865. 1466. Lord Lytldlnn.] 1 think we may gather from your evidence before the Commission that you never considered the non-collegiate form to have attained any great success ; that it was only partially successful ? It had not attained any great success on account of the number of exhibi- tions, because the boys in it were chiefly boys who did not pay anything, and we therefore had not the power of appointing a separate master for that form, but I was looking forward to doing so. 1467 I think you told us that, generally speaking, the boys in that form were the least promising part of the school ? They are divisible into two parts ; there were a certain number of such boys as you allude to, boys who would refer to their parents, and say, " Let me go on the non-collegiate form, there is no Greek there," and so on; but there were also boys belonging to the town who wei'e desirous of making good use of their opportunities, and did make good use of them. 1468. Earl of Derby.'] You stated that you withdrew the non-ccUegiate class in consequence of the observations of the Commissioners ? I did. 1469. If it had not been for those observations, was there anything in the progress of the non-collegiate form which would have led you to abandon it, or was the progress sufficiently encouraging to have led you to go on with it if you had been left to your own judgment ? I should have gone on with it. ' 1470. Even now, setting aside the opinion of the Commissioners, for which, of course, you have great respect, would you think it desirable to introduce into the school of Shrewsbury a non-collegiate class i If it were quite clear that there was no danger of its growing so large that it should interfere with the more important purpose of the school, I think it might be very well carried on and conducted as a subordinate element for the purpose of satisfying the lower class. ^ 147>. Would it tend to remove a great deal of the dissatisfaction which is said to prevail amongst rhe burgess class in Shrewsbury against the present constitution of the school ? I think it has already done so to some extent. ] 472. You rather regret that the Commissioners' Report interfered to prevent the carrying on of thai? experiment ? I did regret it. 1473. Lord Lytlclton.'] You stated some time ago, I think, that any public measure to stamp upon the school the character of a public and nalional school had better be considered by whatever governing body may exist, than be put into an Act of Parliament ? That is a question upon which I should consider it presumptuous in me to give an opinion. I should consider it entirely a question for the wisdom of your Lordships. 1474. Chairman. ^ \\o\x\A not that question rnther apply to the next head you mentioned to the Committee, with regard to requiring the governing body 10 take immediate steps towards the rebuilding of tiie houses and the chapel of the sciiuol ; do you think it desirable that that should be placed in an Act of Parliamc nt or not ? It. is a very urgent question with us; it is a question that we ought to try to In-lng on at the very earliest moment in any way wc can. 147,5. Lord Lytldlou'] You are aware that the Commissioners very carefully considered that matter, and pointed out a detailed scheme by which the money could be ])n)vi(led in the very way which you said you hoped WDuld be adopted <)v the g()\crning l)0(ly, but do you think that that ouglit to l)e reijuii-ed by an A( t of Parliament, or that it should be left to the governing body ? I thought it would be very desirable for an executive commission to carry it thioug,h in some way or other. 1476. There SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 255 1476. There would be powers required, no doubt, whicih would need an Act of The Per. Parliament, the power of borrowing, for example? -B. Ji- Kenedy, Yes, that was what I meant, in part. ° ''• 1477. That would be under a special Act - ^Hth May 1865. Yes. 1478. Earl of Derby.'] Are your pecuniary means sndicient to enable vou to erect those new buildings.'' No, a little over 3,000/. is the income of the school, and 1,000/. of that is applicable to the payment of the incumbents of the churches of the parishes of which the school receives the great tithes. 1479. Chainn i«.] I think the scheme which the Commissioners recommended was not identical with the scheme you wish to see proposed in respect of the buildings ? No, I think it is not the same. There are only general powers in the Bill. 1480. Earl of Z>(?r/;//.] You say that your funds are not sufficient, how do you propose to get over that difficulty ? The trustees have already bought premises. They have 9,000/. or 10,000/. in band ; of that they have spent 3,000 /. in buying premises which are essential to the extension of the school, leaving them about 6,000 /. or 7,000 /. in hand. I do not know iio.v the scheme could be carried out except in a two- fold way. One, by obtaining assistance from old Shrewsbury men who are not in general a rich body, though there are some among them who are so ; and secondly, by borrowing money, and suppressing exhibiiions for a time in order to pay the interest, and to form a fund for repaying the sum that was borrowed. 1481. ho\-(S. Lyttellon.'\ Did not we recommend some slight increase in the payments of the boys in some cases ? Yes, you have done so. 1482. C/iairmcm.] With regard to the point that you suggested to the Com- mittee with respect to doing justice to the school in the matter of Dr. Milling- ton's Trust, and the scholarships at present appropriated to Magdalen College, Cambridge, have you any suggestion to offer tvith x-egard to a leoal provision being made for carrying out that object. Simply what the Commissioners recommended, which I think is consistent with justice. Inasmuch as half of the Aiillington Estate is now taken for Mag- dalen College alone, the fellowships being alienated from Shrewsbury School, I think the other moiety should be vested in Shrewsbury School by the scholarships being alienated Irom .Magdalen College. Dr. Millington was a Shrewsbury man, and wished to benefit both institutions alike. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Dr. Kenyan states that he is not fully prepared to proceed with the case on behalf of the bur;^esses of Shrewsbury. Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till ?vIonday next, Twelve o'clock. (90.) I I 4 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h.L.] 257 Die Lunce, m^ Maii, 1865. PRESENT H. R. H. the Prince of Wales, LoKD President. Duke of Marlborouhh. Earl of Derby. Earl of Devon. Earl Stanhope. Earl of Carnarvon. Earl of Powis. Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe. Viscount EVERSLEY. Lord Bishop of London. Lord Lyttelton. Lord Wrottesi.ey. Lord Houghton. The lord president in the Chair. B Mr. EDWARD ALLESBEY BOUGHTON WARD BOUGHTON LEIGH, is called in ; and Examined as follows : 14S3. Chairman.] YOU have petitioned to be heard against this Bill; will you Mr. be good enough to state to the Conmiittee whether what you have tp say is any- ^■'^^- ^: " thing peculiar, either to yourself or to the parish in which you live, or whether it ^^^ comes under the general case of Rugby ? ,^^1, j,^^^ .g^j^. Ihe only peculiarity about our position is, that Laurence Sheriff mentioned the parish of Brownsover distinctly in his will in 1556, and that the right he then gave us has been enjoyed by the parisli of Brownsover ever since. There is no other peculiarity about our case, except tliat Brownsover the parish in which I reside, is mentioned in Laurence Sheriff's will, and I considered it, and the whole of the parish and neighbourhood considered it, a very great grievance that we should lose the right which he gave us. 1484. Lord Lyttelton.] You have the same ca'^e as Rugby, in fact? Mine is the same case as Ru2;bv. '&"j 1485. You have nothing ncv/ to bring forward, have you, except what we have heard already with regard to Rugby ? I do not know that I have not ; I should like to show your Lordships that Laurence Sheriff did intend to extend the privileges of his foundation to Brownsover. i486. There is not the least doubt about that ? I was here the other day when Dr. Temple was examined, and I think he made a statement that Laurence Sheriff intended to educate the worid in general, and not Rugby and Brownsover in particular. 1487. That is a matter of mere o])inioii or reasoning. Perhaps it may be considered so. 1488. Earl Stanhope.] There is nothing to distinguish the parish of Browns- over from the parish of Rugby, is there .'' " I do not know that there is in jiarticular ; we are under the same will. 14S9. Chairman.] I think that the Committee are of opinion that it is not desirable to re-open the Rugby case, which they have hoard very fully argued by counsel, supported by witnesses selected from the town of Rugby. [The Witness is directed to withdraw.] (90-) K K Mr. 258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 29th May 1865. Mr. Keni/07i.~\ I appear, my Lords, for the burgesses of Shrewsbury in support of their Petition, which has been laid before your Lordships' House, and referred by your Lordships' House to your Lordships for consideration by this Committee. The burgesses of Shrewsbury have presented a Petition in wliich they object to the Bill; first, as it affects their rights to the free education of their children ; next, as it affects their rights in respect of the benefits to which burgesses' sons who have been educated in the school have to exhibitions, scholarships, and fellowships, and the ultimate right which thev have of [)riority over other parties to be appointed to certain livings belonging to the school. They also object to the alteration in the constitution of the governing body, who are the trustees to protect their rights ; and they are also anxious not to have severed from them the connection with the university and colleges with which they are at present con- nected. They consider those to be matters which are beneficial to them, and those benefits they M-ish still to be continued to them. My Lords, the proposed object of the Bill is to promote the greater efficiency of the school and to '' carry into effect the main objects of the founder." One of the main objects of the founder was to benefit tlie burgesses for whom I appear. That, I think, will clearly make itself out to your Lordships, upon examining the documents which I shall have to examine before you. The Bill, therefore, is in- consistent with its preamble when, in professing to effect the main object of the founder, it is destroying one of those main objects. I shall call your Lordships' attention to the nature of the property by which this trust was to be siip]ir>rr,eil ; the local situation of that property, the persons in whom it is vested, and the persons to whom the right of distribution and the right of carrying the objects of the founder into efl'ect are entrusted. I shall point out these things to your Lordships from the charters and other documents by which this foundation has been originally established, and the usage which has prevailed under that foundation, i shall then call your Lord- shijis" attention to this fact, that this foundation so established, and which has, both by its origin and its usage, shown for whom it was intended, is a foundation which has worked well ; that it has been established by judicial decisions in the courts of law and equity ; that it has been further established by the Legislature, and no doubt had at that time careful consideration from your Lordships' House ; and that it has been within very modern times the subject of regulation by the Court of Chancerv. I shall have the honour, further, of pointing out to your Lordships that this constitution has worked to the satisfaction of all parties who were intended to be beneficially affected bv it ; that there has been no abuse of this trust even alleged by anybody ; that the privileges in resjiect of which I am now before your Lordships are those which are dearly prized by those to whom they were given ; and that it would be a matter of deep dissatisfaction to them to be deprived of that which they believe they are entitled to claim as a matter of justice from your Lordshi])s. The original foundation of this charity was in the year 1552, under a Charter of Foundation which bears date on the 10th of February, in the sixth year of King Edward the Sixth's reign, and in which the grant is originally to the Cor- poration ; it is to the bailiffs and burgesses, then the Corporation. That title was altered in the time of (Tiarles the First, and it became the title of the mayor, alder- men, and burgesses ; but it was a grant to the Corporation. Now, if we stop there, that grant would have been a grant to the Corporation for its own benefit. It would have been a <',rant which would have entitled the Corporation to dispose of that ])roperty in anv way that it pleased. That, therefore, being the general nature of tlie first grant in the charter, it is only limited so far as tiie charter in its sul)sequcnt dii-ections does limit it, and your Lordships will see how far the subsequent directions of that charter do limit it. It grants to the Corporation thiit there shall bo a grammar scliool in the town, which shall bo called, " The Free (irammar School of King Edward the Sixth, for the educating, teaching, and instructing of boys and youths in grammar." This absolute gift tiien is so far limited that it is to be a[:]ilicd for the jjurpose of a free grammar school ; that school is to have a master and an imder-master. The property granted for these purjios-s consisted of tithes which arose in the two principal i)ari-h('s of the town. Those tithes had been the projjort}' of two collegiate bodies which had previously existed in the town from a very early time. I may here mention, tliat both of those collegiate bodies being mentioned in the Domesday Book, they must have existed there from the time of Edward the Con- fessor, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [lI.L.] 259 fessor, according to the statement in the Domesday Hook. Those collegiate 29th May 18(15. bodies having been dissolved under a i>revinus Ac-t of Parliament, and tlie ])roperty having been vested in the Crown tor the juirposcs as the Act of Parliament wiiicli vested it states, of founding grammar schools, the charter of gift proceeds to grant those tithes to the Corporation for the pui poses of a grammar selionl. It directs that a master and luider-niaster, wlio are to lie apjiointed, arc to be ajipointed by the Corporation ; and that the Corporation, with the advice of the Bisiiop of Coventry and Lichfield, shall from time to time make statutes and ordinaiK-es, in writing, as to the master and under-master, as to the scholars, and as to tlie dis- position of the revenues for the support of the school. I wish to call your Lordships' attention to the particular evidence as to the nature of this foundation, which may be gatliercd from the instrument by which it is first brought into existence, and the nature of the property, as far as regards the tithes. Those tithes were property originally dedicated to the spiritual purjioses of the parishes where they arose. At an early time they became aj)]>ropri:ited to the collegiate bodi''s, a part of Avhose duties was, as is well known to everybody, to educate. Those were, therefore, originally, and before the (oundation of this school, funds partially appropriated to the education of children, and entirely appropriated to the spiritual instruction of persons in the parishes where they arose. Therefore we have proi)erty of this nature arising in the localities, in fact, in the parishes in which the Corporation existed, given to the Cor[)oration for the pur- poses of a grammar school ; property which had already partially had the impres- sion of a trust for a school for children, and wholly the impression of a trust for the spiritual benefit and instruction of the neighbourhood. Then, we have the Corporation appointed as the body intrusted to carry out these objects. They "were to make statutes as to the government of the masters who were to be ap- pointed by them, as to the scholars who were to be instructed in the school, and as to tlie disposal of the revenues which were to be applied for those purposes. Now here there would be a clear and strong indication that it was intended that the persons for whose benefit this property was given, under the superintend- (•enee of the governing body, that is to say, the Corporation of the town, should be the persons Mho were there residing, and therefore the children of the burgesses would be the primary object of the trust so constituted. As 1 pointed out origi- nally, if the gift had been simply to the Corporation, without anything more, it would have been to them and for their own benefit. It remains, however, to to their own benefit, impressed with a trust that the benefit shall be of the nature of a grammar school. The parties, therefore, who would be the recipients of that charity would be naturally, and I might almost say necessarily, the children of the burgesses of the town. Therefore, we get our indicatiori in the very first foundation of the school that the burgesses' sons are the persons intended to be benefited by the school, and to be provided for by these funds, and were therefore to have gratuitous education. Now, my Lords, the next thing which I will bring to your notice upon this . point is, that this school was opened imder this constitution in the fourth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth, in the year 1562. That appears in the evidence of Dr. Kennedy, which is before your Lordshi|)s, in answer to the printed questions which were originally submitted to him ; and upon that evidence we have one very marked corroboration of that which I have already ventured to say, and it is this, that in the records immediately after the foundation you have a distinc- tion between the oppidani and the alieni. The oppidani would be, of course, those who were resident in the town : the alieni would be the strangers. We have, therefore, a distinction, marked with the greatest clearness, between the natural born recipients of the trust and the aliens who were to come from a distance that they might receive the benefits of the school. That distinction bears out very strongly the internal force which there is in the particular mode of the consti- tution rmder the original Charter. Mr. Ashton, who was the original schoolmaster, and who was named in a subsequent instrument, resigned the office of schoolmaster, as Dr. Kennedy tells us, in the year 1.069. In the year 1571 there was a further grant to the Corporation by Queen Elizabeth, by a deed of the 23d of May, in the 13th year of her reign. That was a grant by the Queen also to the Corporation. It granted to the Cor- poration the tithes and revenues of the impropriate rectory of Chirhury, which had belonged to a dissolved priory there. Now, the observations which I made with respect to the collegiate character of St. Mary's and St. Chad's applies (.90.) K K 2 to 260 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2.0th Maj- 1865. to the dissolved priory of (Jliirbury, for that was a religious body, and was also impressed with a trust of an educational character, as all religious establishments of that kind were. Chirbury being at that time a parisli in which probably it would have been useless to liave established a grammar school of the character which was in contemplation under that early Act of Edward tlie Sixtli ; the obvious course was to connect it with the nearest establishment which could be found, which carried out the principles which were intended to be carried out, and that nearest place would be Shrewsbury, the county town of the shire in which that parish «as situated. Other parts of the property given by Queen Elizabeth were further portions of the tithes of the two parishes, part of which tithes had been "granted by the Charter of Edward the Sixth. They were further portions of the tithes of the parish of St. Mary, and of the parish of St. Chad, being other property which had belonged to those two collegiate bodies. This property is granted to the Cor- poration of Shrewsbury, and it is granted for the better maintenance of the grammar school at Shrewsbury, and also for the maintenance of Divine Service in the curacy of St. Mary's, that is the parish church of St. Mary's, which had, previous to the dissohition of the collegiate body, been served by that collegiate body and their curates ; but, after the dissolution of the collegiate body, the charge of the parish was left upon the curate, with only a very small stipend. This provides a sum for the benefit of the curate, the parochial minister of St. Mary's, and also for the better support of Divine Service in the parish of St. Cliff or Clive, and Astley, which were two chapelries in the parish of St. Mary. Then the residue is to be applied for the better maintenance of a free grammar school in Shrewsbury. It is to be so ai)plied, according to such ordinances and rules as shall be established by the head master, Mr. Ashton ; or, if he should die before making them, then by the Bisho]) of Lichtield and Coventry. This instrument was a deed to which the Corporation were parties, and the Corporation covenant to observe such regulations as shall be so framed. The regulations which were contemplated by that deed were eventually framed and published in the year 1578, with a deed which was executed between the Bishop and the Corporation and St. John's College, Mr. Ashton, the party intrusted by the Queen to make the rules, and Mr. Laurence, who was then the head master of the school. I need not mention more of that deed than this, that it is a mutual covenant between all the parlies tliat they will observe, and to their power enforce the regulations which have been made by the bailiffs and burgesses under the authority given to them by the Charter of Edward the Sixth, and which have been made by Mr. Ashton under the authority given by Queen Elizabeth. It is in that deed and in those ordinances that we first see the connection of St. John's College with the school. The 7th provision of the BailifiT's Ordinances, the ordinances, that is, of the Corporation, deals with the appointment of masters. In that provision, your Lordshiji's will see, that St. John's College is brought into connection with the bailifls and burgesses. But your Loi'dships will remark upon that, that as soon as the bailiffs and burgesses bring in any person in any way to participate in the trust with them, they immediately take care to protect the interests of the burgesses' sons. It is a very material and a very striking point, that in the appointment of the masters they take care at the same time, very prudently, that it should not bu to the prejudice of good teaching in the school. 1'he i)rovision is to this effect : that when any master's place is vacant, the bailiffs are to appoint, with the advice of the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, according to the letters patent of Edward the Sixth ; that is to say, the aj)pointiiient is to be by the bailiffs and burgesses with the Bisliop's advice ; those were the terms of the original Charter. The 7th provision goes on in this way, lliat the master may be " elected of such as shall be Itest able to sujiply those functions or rooms, and that ot such as have or shall be scholars in the said free schools, if any such then shall be." It pro- vides that the bailill's shall, within 20 days after the notice of the vacancy, give notice of it to St,. John's (Jollege, Cambridge (I am reading this shortly, in order not to take too much of your Lordshijis' time), requesting them to elect and .send " one able, meet and apt nuiu for that purpose, with the testimony of his con- versation,' under tlieir seal, to be elected by the Master and Fellows of the College, as follows : first, of such as were born in Shrewsbury, being the legiti- mate son of a Itnrgess there, ami Ir.iving been scholars in the school; secondly, of such SELECT COMMITTEK ON THK PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [lI.L.j 261 such as wero boi'ii in the liljurties of tlic town, or in tlie Abbey Foregate. 'I'lie 2ijth Mji.yi8Gj Abbey Forcgale is a district adjoining to ihe town, but which, having been formerly within the jirecincts of the Abbey, was excluded Iroin the town as being within the privileges of tlie Abbey, jurisdiction. That accounts for its being men- tioned separately. The second class ol' persons who were to be chosen were such as were or shull be born within the liberties or fran(rhises of the said town, or in the AI>bey Foregate, being tlie legitimate sou of a burgess, and having been a scholar in the school. And, thirdly, of some sufficient nuui, born in Shropshire, and brought up in the school, the first preference being given to a person born in the aiijoining parish. Therefore, first you are to have the burgesses' sons born within the strict limits of the (Jor])oration ; next, you are to have those who are the sons of burgesses born within the franchises of the town ; and, thiidly, you are to take from the parish of Chirbury, from which the other jiortion, the last |)ortion, of the j)roperty came, and next a person who had been born in the county at large ; and. fourthly, some sufficient man born in any other county, "so that they which have been scholars of the school be evermore preferred, if any such be thought worthy of the place by the master and the greatest part of the fellows " jjresent. Here then you have an anxious provision which was tf> secure to the benefit of a burgess's son, who had been educated in the school, the appointment of head master in the school, always taking care that he was a fit and proper man, and that he was one who would be best able to do the work. Your Lordships will observe, therefore, that here, as soon as any power at all is to be participated in by anotlier party, you find the burgesses' rights stipulated for and protected. The master who was so ajipoin.ted was to be sent to the bishop, and he was to be approved of by the bishop, and then he was to come to the Cor- j)oration to be elected by them, if they approved of him. So that even there they resei^'ed to themselves the power of refusing a person sent to them, if they thought him unworthy, for the ordinances say, that he was to be allowed and sworn by the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, and then to be allowed by the bailifls, if they think worthy of him, and if tliey should mislike him, upon cause reason- able, they are to certify the cause to tlie college, who aix- thereupon to make a new election. My Lords, passing over the other })rovisions of those ordinances which are not necessary for me to mention for my particular present ])urpose, I coine to the 'iiith section, which relates to the admittance fees. These admittance fees are remarkable in this way, that they clearly show an intention that a burgess's son should be admitted free unless he has the ability to pay, and if he was " of ability to pay," then he was to be admitted on the payment of an admittance fee of 4 d. ; but no one else, even if he were an inhabitant of the town, is spoken of as being admitted free, for the class that comes nearest to the burgesses are persons inhabiting within the town, who are to pay an admittance fee of Sd. ; but there is no such proviso there, as I mentioned there was with respect to the burgesses -'if they be of ability."' Therefore, unless they paid they did not come in at all. Then we find how the ordinances provide for persons in different degrees of admissibility. A burgess's son, if of ability. v\as to pay 4 d., if not, he was to come in free. Every other person inhabiting was to ])ay Hd., double, therefore, what a burgess's son, if of ability, would pay. For a lord's son the charge was to be \0s. When we com- pare that with the 4 d. for the burgess's son, we liave a very large proportionate difference. A knight's son was to ])ay Gs. 8d.; the son and heir apjtarent of a gentleman, ;.! .v. 4 d. ; and every other son, 2 .v. 6 d. Sons of persons under these degrees, if tliey were born out of the county, were to pay 2 s. ; if they were born in the county, 1 .v. We, therefore, see distinct priorities given, first to the bur- gesses' sons, whose admittance is to be gratuitous, unless they are of ability toj)ay; then to the persons inhabiting in the town; and then to the persons who were born in the county. These sums were to be applied, not for the payment of mas- ters, but for the buildings. Such then, my Lords, are the provisions which apj)ear upon the ordinances of the bailift's. Now, we proceed to the ordinances of Mr. Ashton. Mr. Ashton's first and second ordinances relate to the salaries which are to be paid to the masters. There are to be three masters and an accidence master, making four altogether. And here one may observe, upon the accidence master, th.at it was the intention to bring in, as the ordinances stated, young beginners into the school, a matter of consulerable importance to the burgesses, and tlierefore one which has a bearing /go.) K K .3 indicating o 262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE agth May 1865. indicating the general intention as to wlio were to be benefited. With respect to the manner in which the sahiries ure a|j[)ointed tliere is ;i m;itter of observation. The first master is to have 40 I. a year, the second 30 /., and the tliird 20 /., and the accidence master 10 I. per annum ; bnt those are to be without increase, there- fore the education would be without increa^^e ; and if tlu; revenues were not sufi- cient for such large salaries, then those salaries were to abate proportionately. I will call your Lordships' attention to the 8th ordinance. You find a connection with St. John's College, admitted in these ordinances. It a])pears in the fetli ordinance in this way, that payments for repairs and for other matters in the management of the trust were directeil to be made to a sum not exceeding 10/. at any one time, without the consent of St. John's College If, therefore, there was to be a hirger application of the revenues for any purpose than the amount of 10/. at one time, the advice and consent of the college was to be obtained. 'I'here- fore St. John's College was in this way brought into connection with the school under this ordinance. Then, passing to the 12th ordinance, we find the directions which I'elate to the foundations of fellowships and scholarships, and those were to be at St. John's College. Here we find that these are again guarded, and carefully guarded, for the benefit of the burgesses. From the surplus, land is to be bought for the founrling of two scholarships and two fellowships in St. John's College, or as that college and the Corporation shall agree, for such scholars as shall have been brought up in the school. The election was to be made in the manner here specified : first, of scholars born in the town ; secondly, of scholars born in the suburbs or Al>bey Foregate, being in either of those cases legitimate sons of burgesses. This is the same order of preference, which was before laid down with respect to the masters. After saying that they are to be the legitimate sons of burgesses, it says, "if they be found meet and apt for such preferment." This was not a proviso which was to leave them open to a general unliftiited competition with others ; but if they are meet and fit for the preferment, then they are to have it, notwithstanding there might have been others more fit. This proviso (I say this with great confidence, because it has been judicially so decided) says, that they are entitled to the preference ; thirdly, if those classes fail, then scholars of the school, born in the franchises of the town are to be admitted. Next, persons within the parish of Chirbury (still keeping the same ratio of benefit); and, fifthly, persons born within the county of Salop. The same ratio of benefit is preserved throughout. Tlie election is to be annually made by the master and seniors of St. John's College, of scholars sent from the school to Cambridge, and they are, in their election, to have regard to the poverty of the boys ; they are to be those who are godliest, poorest and best learned amongst those boys. And, after founding such scholarships, if there is a still further surplus, other scholarships are to be founded. Then, we pass on to the next provision necessary to my purpose, which relates to the minister of St. Mary's parish ; and here, in providing for the person who shall be appointed to that living, it directs that he shall be a fit person, brought up in the school, a graduate and a burgess's son of Shrewsbury; and, for default of such burgess's son, the election is to be of any other such fit person born in the parish of ( hirbury ; for default of such, then any of like i)r(jliciency who shall be chosen generally by the bailiffs and the chief schoolmaster. A like provision is afterwards made with respect to the parish of Chirbury, the minister for which was to be appoiiUtd in a like order of priority and of jireference, excepting that a native of Chirbury was to take the first preference. Mere, then, my Lords, you have a very clear provision made for the benefit of the buruesses' sons, made in instruments contemplated by the original instruments of the foundation, and there- fore to be construed with them, and as forming part of them. Hero you find, putting all tliese instruments together, it seems to me a clear provisiou giving to the burgesses' sons the lienefit of a free education, and the benefit of the clear preference to the scholarships, exhibitions, and fellowships which are to proceed from this gn.nt. Now, my Lords, it has been said by Dr. Kennedy, in part of his evidence, that these ordinances were not authorised by the original charter and deed. It so ha])])ens fand it is a very remarkabl(> fact that it is so"! that they have been coii- fu-med. 'i'lioy were confirmed by tlie Court of Chancery before the Act of Parlia- ment, and there is a distinct decree made by Lord Lliestnere, establisliing the ordinance in respect of the; master, and declaring distinctly, by tlie authority of the Court of Chancery, that those ordinances were just and {)roper. The question arose SELECT COMMITTEE (>N THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. BILL. [h.L.] 263 arose in this way : the head iiiaslcr for tlie time Ik-Iii^- liad appointed an under- ogth May 1865. master without any authority ; he iiiiiiseir filed a bill in Chancery, coniplailiiug of — — some things which hacl taken place, and the Lord Chancellor referred the con- sideration of all matters connected with tlie trust to thecoiiKideratiou of Sir Kdward Bromley, a Baiou of the Exchequer, and to ilie tlien C'hief Justice <>i Chester. Sir Kichard Luckuor, and to the Recorder of Shrewsbury, Mr. Barker. They were, under the authority of Lord Kllesinere, to consider the dilfereut matters referred to them, amoujist v. liich was that which related to the appointment <>f the masters. Another matter which Mas referred to them for consideration was, whether scholarshijis and fellowships should i)e founded, and, if so, how. They made their report, that this under-master had been im])roperly appointed ; that he had not been appointed according to the ordinances ; that, of the surplus stock, there ouy this Act of Parliament. Tiiis Act of Parliament of 1798, after assigning the salaries to the masters, says that the masters "shall, and they are hereby required to teach and instruct in the school such boys as are the legitimate sons of burgesses of the town of Shrews- bury gratis, and without any fee or reward." This, therefore, is a legislative con- tinuance of a previous right, and an affirmance of that which had been given or intended by the original constitution. The Act of Parliament further directs who shall be entitled to the exhibitions, and there again your Lordships find that what has previously been laid down by the ordinances is again enacted. Mow can it be iillegei! that this was a new grant? You have the priority which is given in this Act, previously and specifically given by thf ordinances ; but the Actha\ing, for the convenience of embodying all the regulations of the schoul in one instru- ment, repealed those ordinances, it was desirable that they should reinstitute in the Act of Parliament the privileges which otherwise it might be said had been destroyed. 1 he same privilege, therefore, is given to burgesses' sons under the Act of Pariiiiment ;:s they had before. Now, my Lords, since that Act, ihe matters connected with the constitu- tion of this school, have been at three different times before the Court of Chan- cery. The first was in the year 1836, when the Corporation Act having passed, a question arose as to what was to be done with the :idvowsons to which the Corporation had the power of nominating. The Corporation raised the ques- tion whether they were not entitled to them beneficially, and whether, therefore, those advowsons Avere not to be sold and the produce given to the Corporation absolutely. It was at a time when you will recollect that all charity funds were directed to be severed from Corporations and vested in charitable trustees other than the Corporation; but any livings, any advowsons, any right of patronage, whicli might have belonged to a Corporation otherwise than as trustees, wei e to be sold and the produce applied to the Corporation for its general purposes. I will now ca'l your Lordships" attention to the decision of Lord Cottenham upon that j)oint : 1 "ill refer only to one or two exjn'essions in the judgment. I will not trouble your Lordslii])s with going in any detail into the matter. Lord Cottenham laid it do^n that they held them as a trust, and their trust strictly was to present deserving persons from among the favoured class, and it would be only on the failure of persons who came within that class, that the presenta- ti(m without restriction, might be exercised b}' tiicm. He held that this was " a clear trust, a trust for the benefit of the persons named according to that order of priority." That again affirms the burgesses rights. Then, again, the matter came before the ('ourt, when this scheme, which has already been uienti(jned to your Lordships very fully, was brought before the Court. 'I'hat was brought before the Court by a [letition presented by the trus- tees under the Ai:t of Parliament, usually called Sir Sanmel Ilomilly's Act, which was to enal)le the ( ourt of Chancery to give its direction in the carrying out of trusts without the necessity of filing a Bill or information, and to facilitate, therefore, ilie mode in which the trust should be dealt with by the Court. The Lord ( hancellor having over-ruled a decision of the late Vice Chancellor of Engl.and, who had considered tliat he had not jurisdiction in the matter, held, that most clearly there was jurisdiction, and that the j)etition was a very proper one, applying, as it did, for the assistance of the Court, to direct the trustees how to carry out their trust, and in what way they were to apply some surplus funds which were then in their hands for the benefit of the school. Among other things, there had at that time arisen a claim or a suggestion, by some parties, that this surplus money, which was not wanted, as it was said, for the grammar school, should be applied to found a commercial school, and that ques- tion was included, therefore, in the petition, but the petition was by no means such a petition as was represented, I think l)y iJr. I'ateson, a petition filed solely or mainly for the purpose of establishing a commercial school, and getting the grammar .scliool converted iut:> a conmuTcial school. Nothing was further from ihe object of the pLlition than thai, and had that boon the only object of the petition, SELECT t'OMMlTTEK ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll L.] 26/ petition, I am ([uitc satisfied tliat Lord Cottcnhain would liavc dismissed the 29tb May 1865. petition, and iiave made the petitioner- pay the costs of the applicatiou. Tiie framers of that petition so strongly felt that it would be very improbable that the Court of Chancery would sanction tlieestahlislmn-nt of a commercial school out of the funds of the f,M-aminar school, lo the prejudice of the ;iframmar sciiool, that having regard to the disputes which there had been about that subject, .in order to quiet them, they raised that question, and asked the direction of the court whether there should be a reference to Parliament for any of those purposes. Lord Cottenhani held that for carrying out such a purpose as that, a reference to Parliament would be necessary, and he said this, " It is of constant occurrence that the court is asked to incjuire whether an Act of Parliament shall be applied for." " It is a matter of ordinary practice for this court to inquire first whether it is right or wrong; that is, whether it is for the interest of the charity or not for Parliament to interfere. As far us the Mouse of Lords is concerned, I know it never permits any interference with a charity fund, without the previous sanction of this court, it has often happened, since I have held the seals, that Com- mittees of the House of Lords have very properly suspended Bills, having for their object to deal with charity propertji, until the matter had bein brought before the Court of Chancery, in order to know what direction this court thought proper to make, the House of Lords not professing to exercise the jurisdiction of the Court of (Chancery, but only to carry into effect that which the court thinks right to be done in furtherance of the objects of the charity." Lord Cottcnham, therefore, made it a part of his inquiry, with respect to the reference, whether for the pur- pose of the furtherance and the benefit of the sciiool an applicatio.! to the Court of Cliaucery should be mad". An order was drawn up accordingly, and the mas- ter to whose inquiry the matter was submitted, made his report, and in that report said that he thougiit no reference to Parliament was necessary, and Lord Cotten- ham confirmed that decision. 1 he third and last time on which the matters connected with this school have come before the Court of Chancery, was in the year 1853, when there was an information filed, the title of which is "The Atti;/.] In his written answers, he states that tlie Municipal Reform Act of 18.3.5, "'has ju-oduced, and must yet produce, a perpetual diminution " of the old burgesses. Mr. Keiiyon.] I am much obliged to your Lordship. The constitution of the burgesses is this : any person born in the town is entitled to become a burgess upon being sworn, and paying a small fee ; and his sons in perjietual descent are entitled to the burgess-rights. I have su|)posed the case of a ])erson born in the town. If a person had acipiired a burgess-right in any other way than that, all his children born after he had acquired that light would be also entitled to become burgesses. Tlie way in whicli persons could acquire the burgess -rights, except by birth and |)areutage, was by servitude under an apprenticeship in one of the incorporated trades of the town. That right still remains, and may still be acted upon ; but it does not confer now the privilege of voting for Members of Parliament, and therefore, practically, it is not much used. Practically, apprenticeships are much less used than they used to be. In that sense, therefore, that class of burgesses may diminish ; but as parentage gives the right, it may be enlarged to any extent. But granting, for the purjiosc of argument, that Dr. Kennedy was right, and granting that the burgesses are diminishing, and will diminish, why should you not allow those rigliis to jed the expression " both colleges " ; but I may i-ay that there is no desire on the part of the burgesses to sever their connection with Magdalen College, though a portion of the benefit which they had at Magdalen College has, without an opportunity on their part of protecting themselves, been taken from them. They deeply n gret that it has been takea from them. That property still exists, and it is still a trust property, and they may fairly look forward to some future time when justice may yet be rendered to them in respect of that. But I am not now here to say anything upon that, except this, that nothing would he further from their wish than to do any kind of injustice to their benefactors, and to do what they feel would be a w rong to them- selves, because they are sensitive as to what they consider to be a wrong having been done to them. They do not wish that anything should be done to alter the connection with Magdalen ; but the more immediate connection which they have is with St. John's, and that has worked well, and that they prize. My Lords, they have had, under that provision, the benefit of very good masters coming to the school, in consequence of which the school has attained a high position as a clas- sical school ; it has a character well known in the Universities. The connection between the college and the school operates and reacts in a very beneficial way upon both. '1 he college sends them a master, and the college therefore feels a deep interest that the master should do well ; their character is pledged, and they are, as it were, sureties tor the good behaviour of the master, who has come to Shrewsbury, by their appointment. Then, again, the master, who is appointed from that college, probably his own college, feels a great interest in supporring the character of the college which has sent him there, by doing his duty well in the position of a master, and also in sending back to that college good students, (90. J L L 4 well 272 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE acjth May 1865. well advanced in their ^vork, capable again oi' doing well in the University, and establisliing therefore in the University the credit of the school that has sent them, and tiie credit of the master who has educated them, and the credit of that college in which the muster as well as themselvds is interested. Earl of DerhyP\ If the connection is to be Ijroken off with tlie college, what do you apprehend to have been the ground upon which it was i)rovided that one of the future governing body should be the master of St. John's College, at the same time that you sever the connection between the school and tiie college. Mr. Kefiyon.] There will be nothing whatever that can bind them to elect fioin St. John's College. They may do so if they please, Ijut why should you sever a connection which has done well ? Earl of Derby.'] Is not the severance of the connection inconsistent with the appointment of the master of St. John's College as one of the governing body. Mr. Kenyan^ I think so entirely, my Lord, "^'ou might just as well ap])oint a master of any other college in any other place ; you might appoint the Principal of King's College, London ; he is a person of great distinction, great eminence, and great worth. There is nothing whatever to point out why the master of St. John's College should be appointed, if tlie connection with the- college in other ways is to be severed. My Lords, I have now concluded my remarks upon that point, and I have nothing further to urge upon your Lordsiiips, except shortly to reca])itulate that in respect of the burgess rights, they dearly prize them, they have enjoyed them for centuries without harm to anybody, and with great benetit t" themselves, and they hojie that that state of things will be continued. It tends to foster the best of feelings, and it has in no respect prejudiced the school. They desire to retain the connection with the class of trustees who are now their trustees, and they desire to retain the connection with the colleges which has worked well. And, my Lords, while I urge this, your Lordsiiips will remember that this matter has been all regulated Mithin a very short time by tlie Court of Chancery, and that it has worked and is working well. Therefore, I submit that no legislation what- ever, with respect to this school is desirable, but most earnestly do I impress upon your Lordships the deep and strong feeling of the burgesses that their rights may not be taken away, that that wliich they cherish dearly may not be taken from them, for if taken from them it will only be to pamper and stimulate the appetite of wealthy strangers. With these remarks I leave the case in your Lord- ships' hands. Chairman?^ Do you propose calling any witnesses ? ]\Ir, Kcvyon.'] No, my Lord. I have referred to matters that are not in evidence strictly, though they have been alluded to in the papers ; I mean those decisions of the courts. Perhaps if your Lordshijis Avill allow me to do so, I hud better have those documents furnished, in order that they may be upon the notes. If you will permit that, I think that will suftice. There is also the Deed of Queen Elizabeth, which I think is not in evidence. If you will allow me to furnish those documents which complete the history of the Foundation, I think it will tend to make the re[)ort more perfect, and your Lordship's knowledge oi the sub- ject more lull and complete. Mr. I^ernon Harcourt.] My Lords ; I have the honour to apjiear upon the Petition of the Master, Fellows, and Scholars of St Mary Magdalen College, Cambridge. That Petition, u'y Lords, states, "'lliat your Petitioners have learned that there is a Bill before your Lordships' House, intituled, 'A Bill to make further provision for the good government and extension of Public Schools.' " Then it states ; " It is a subject ot regret to your Petitioners to learn that it is pro[)osed by the Bill to alienate from colleges the jwwer which they have long, and it is believed advantageously, exercised, of appointing masters of schools." Then comes the clause in the petition to wiiich my observations will be sjiecially addressed, which i? this, " Your Petitioners further think it uncalled for and unprecedented that the new bodies of governors should bo empowered to convert scholarships and exhibitions attached to particular colleges in O.xford and Cambridge, with emoluments tenable at any college in either University. The limitation in tiic Bill, restricting the exercise of this power to those cases in which the colleges do not hold the estate that constitutes the endowment,. SELECT COMMITTER ON THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 273 endovvnicnt, by no moans removes tlic objection wliicli your petitioners enter- 29th May 1865. tain to tlie principle of this ])r()posal." My Lords, the clause in the Bill to whieli tliat parap:raph of the petition is addressed, is tlie clause which your liordships will find on pa;^e 4 of the Bill, s. 3 />., line 30 : " To convert emoliiuients attached to any particular college at Oxford and Canibrid<;e, but not payable out of funds held by such college, into emoluments tenable at any colleiie in eitlier University." The interest of the petitioners wjioui 1 have the honour to rtrpnsent is par- ticularly addressed to four scholarships on tin- Millin^ton foundation, wJiich are connected with Shrewsbm-y School and Ma<;(lalen College. The par;igra|di, my Lords, in the Report of the Connnissioiiers in which we are interested will be found in the first volume of the Rejtort, at page 313. It is there stated that " Shrewsbury is rich in exhibitions. Dr. Kennedy gives a list of 2G (or. as it ratlier seems, 34) exhibitions or scliolarslii))s to whicii Shrewsbury Ijoys liave a claim." I ask your Lordships" attention to that. First of ail, it appears that we are dealing here, as far as Magdalen College is concH'rned, with four scholar- ships out of 34. Therefore it is not a cpiestion at all involving anything like the whole or even a considerable fractional portion of tlie interest of Shrewsbury School in exhibitions generally. "They vary in value from 10/. to 63/. per annum, and are tenable from three to eight years. Some of them are free exhibitions, whicli may l)e held at any college at either University ; the majority, however, are tenable at particular colleges age 313. Dr. Kennedy in his evidence, states somewhat more at length tlie principle upon which he proposes to deal with these scholarships. First of all, he states that he had g-ivcn notice to Magdalen College that he was going to present this memorial, and under the circumstances I have stated to your Lordships, Magdalen College could not appear, — they consider that they had no opportunity afforded them on that occasion of appearing. However, as we have the advantage of ajjpearing before your J^ord-hijis, it is not necessary to insist upon that at greater length. Now, Dr. Kennedy says, " We think the school lias an equitable claim to the benefit of a moiety of the estate, one half having bi en alienated entirely from the school, for the sole benefit of Magdalea College." That is the first proposition upon which Dr. Kennedy insists, and that is a proposition which, in this form, we are not disposed to accept. I had better read the rest of what he says, " We contend that it was the in- tention of the testator. Dr. Millington, who was born in the town, and was edu- cated at the school as well as at Magdalen College, that the school and the college should equally share the benefit of the estate. We contend that there is a pecu- liar hardship in this case, because the benefaction was for scholarships or exhi- bitions for the schools ; and the conversion of those into fellowships, or rather, the creation of fellovvshij)s instead of new scholarships or exhibitions, was an after- thought, and only decreed by the Court of Chancery, at the instance of the trus- tees, in the latter jiart of the last century. One of the two fellowships was founded so late as 1817, and the other only a few years ago, in 1856 ; and we are certain that the four Shrewsbury Trustees would never have concurred in the petition to Chancery to create fellow^ships instead of scholarshijis or exhil)itions, if they had believed that those fellowshijjs would be alienated to the sole benefit of Magdalen College, while the school was to be left with only a moiety of the benefit arising from the half share. At present, the estate which was intended for the equal benefit of two public institutions, has three-fourths of it appropriated to the benefit of one of those public institutions." Now, my Lords, I believe tint a more fallacious piece of arithmetic than that was never presented to the consideration of any body of gentlemen. In the first place, it is necessary that I should state the circumstances under which the disappropria- tion, as it is called, of the Millington fellowships at Magdalen College took place. Those fellowships arose in this manner : under the will of Ur. Millington, Mhich was the original foundation, the trusts were to invest the money originally between " two of the most studious, injenous, virtuous, and learned scholars for their year, who should be admitted, and should have completely resided in Magdalen Col- lege, Cambridge" (putting, as you will see, Magdalen College, Cambridge, first), " for the space of two years from their admission, and Mho should have been before such their admission educated at the free school in Shrewsbury at least two whole years, bringing a certificate therefrom." Dr. Millington's will was of the- date of 1724. Four scholarships were founded upon the basis of the trust, according to various schemes which took place at different times. Jn 1817, a fund having accuinulated, and it not being considered desirable to found any more scholarships, under the direction of the Court of Chancery, one fellowship was founded in that year of the value of two scholarships, that is, 26 /. per annum ; and another fellowship was founded in 1826. That was the state of things up to the action of the Cambridge University Commission. Now, as your Lordships are aware, the principle upon which the Cambridge University Commission acted was, to a great extent, that of throwing open all the bye-fellowships, as they were called, and with reference to Magdalen College, it also then proposed to proceed upon that principle. As regards the action of Magdalen College, they were not consenting parties, but, on the contrary, resisting parties to this proposal on the part of the University Com- mission. I have before me one of the letters addressed by the authority of Magdalen College to the Commissioners. They say, " The master and fellows have received a strong remonstrance from Dr. INIillington's trustees with reference to the proposed severance of the two fellowships on that foundation from Shrews- bury School. The school has constantly sent up deserving scholars for a very long time, and these have always been good candidates for the fellowships ; and the master and fellows are very willing, with the approval of the Commissioners, that the fellowships should continue on their present footing ; provided first, that (90.) M M 2 the 276 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SQth May 1865. the fellovsliips are tenable for 10 years only, and vacated by marriaji^e or promo- tion to another fellowship ; secondly, in default of tit candidates from i^hrews- bnry School and educated at Magdalen College, that the fellowsliips then vacant be thrown open." Therefore, your Lordships will see that it was by no action whatsoever on the part of Magdalen, that these fellowships upon the l^'1il!i^gton found;ition were removed from their connection with Shrewsbury School. On the contrary, tliey remonstrated against anv such removal. i)ut they remonstrated in vain, for the Commissioners proceeded under the '27t\\ statute, to enact " The right of preference in the election to the two fellowships, founded by the Rev. Dr. Millington, at Magdalen College, in the University of Cambridge, heretofore enjoyed by persons educated at the Grammar School of Shrewsbury, is hereby abolished. '1 he two fellowships on the foundation of the Rev. Dr. Millington, shall (after the expiration of existing rights) be consolidated into one fellowship, the election to which shall be niaile in the same manner as that to the foundation fellow ships of the college, and such fellowship shall henceforth be considered as an o])cn fellowship on the foundation of the college." Now, it is impossible to read the evidence of Dr. Kennedy, and the memorial presented by the trustees without seeing that really the ground of this application is rather put in the form of a species of penal legislation against Magdalen Col- lege, in consequence of what took place with regard to its fellowships. It seems to be based upon the principle of punishing Magdalen College for what the Com- missioners did, and that it seems hardly consistent certainlv with the first principles of justice, because I find extremely little trace in Dr. Kennedy's evidence of any- thing like an objection, founded upon any existing inconvenience or disadvantage, or evil, arising to Shrewsbury School, from the existing state of things ; but he says, " ^'ou took away Irom us something sve were entitled to, and, therefore, w-e will take away from you that to which you still remain entitled."' That ap])ears to be the basis of the argument of Dr. Kennedy u])on the subject. The first principle upon which Dr. Kennedy seems to found himself is, that the Millington fellowshii)s at Magdalen were alienated for the sole benefit, as he says, of Magdalen College. Now, my Lords, that is what we entirely deny. They were not alienated for the sole benefit of Magdalen College ; they were alienated because the University Commissioners thought that that alienation would be for the general advantage, I sup]iose, of university education, and a more expedient and advantageous course to be adopteil for that object. Certainly, if the jiersonal and private interests, if I vnay so speak, of Magdiden College had been concerned, and if their wishes had been consulted, no such alienation would have taken place, because the result of what was done by the University Commis- sion was, to diminish the number of fellowships at Magdalen from 18 to 8. Of course the fellowships thereby became more valuable ; they had the same fund divisible among 8 fellowships instead of 18. But I need hardly tell your Lord- ships that in the case of a college, so far as regards the inducements it can hold out to anyone to join the foundation, it is more valuable and advantageous to have a great number of ])rizes in the lottery, even though those prizes be small, than to be only able to offer so small a number as eight fellowships to the public, who may have to wait some time, even though they be most deserving men, for the vacancy of a fellow ship ; therefore, Magdalen College did not desire this change. Earl of Derby. ^ Magdalen College obtained one fellowship of double value, instead of two of half the value, did it not ? Mr. Vernon Harcourt.~\ Yes, my Lord. Earl of Dcvaih] That one being open to the world? Mr. Vernofi Ifarcuiiri.'] Yes. Earl of Derby. ^ That might have been disadvantageous to Shrewsbury, but it was no advantage to Magdalen, that is your argument? Mr. Vernon Harcourl.] It was no advantage to Magdalen. I say it may be a disadvantage to Shrewsburv; but I am coming to that presently, and I shall show yoin- Lordships, although theoretically it is something less of an advertisement to Shrewsbury School, because thev cannot say we ha\ e two fcllo\vshi])s absolutely at our disposal at Magdalen College, which nobody but a Shrewsbury man can [lossibly hold, althoiigli it may be that so fiir that advcrtisenu'iit is gone from them, yet when I come to state to your Lordship's what is the position of Shrews- bury SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [u. L.] 277 bury School at tliis moiucut, I think you will K;iy that, practically, so far fioui any ^0^'' Muy^'SCs. disadvantage ha\ iny; pcciucd from the change to Shrewsbury School, the results liave been most advantageous to that school. 1 deal first with tln' statement that it was for the solo benefit to Magdalen Col- lege that this alienatiuu took place. I say that it was no bi;nolit whatever to Magdalen College, except so far a^ having an open fellowship maybe advantageous, as compared with ha\ ing a close ftdlowship. But if I am correctly informed, Dr. Kennedy, in his evidence the otlur day, lias estopjied hinis:elf i'rom raising such an argument as that ; for I am told, by persons who were present during the state- ment he made, that lie adheres to the close scholarships as regards St. John's Col- lege and ('hristchurch, Oxford, and therefore has practically abandoned the only arguable and tenable proposition, — that is, that all fellowships and scholarships should be open to the market of the world, in vvhicii the buyers can go in and buy at the chea])est rate. Now, my Lords, I have stated that Magdalen College has derived no advantage from this change. The public at large may have derived some advantage from it, but that is no reason for punishing Magdalen College in this manner. I think, however, that I shall satisfy your Lordships that at all events Shrewsbury School has not suffered in this matter. According to the original institution, before the changes effected by the University Commission, the position of a Milliugtfn fellow of Magdalen was this: as he could only hold his fellowship for thiee j^ears without going into orders, after the expiration of three years he became a tenant-at-will, in point of fact, of his fellowship at the will of the master ; that is to say, it w as only by consent of the master that he could con- tinue to hold his fellowship. T he state of things was this : there were four foundation fellowships only at Magdalen, and there were 14 bye-fellowships. Now, a Shrewsbury man had only the chance of the two Millington fellowships which were secured to him, and a chance, possibly, of the four foundation fellowships, which of course was a small chance, the number being so narrow. As regarded the other 12 bye-fellowships (I think I am right in this), a Shrews- bury man had no chance, because they were appropriated to other persons ; all that were of any value were appropriated. Now, what is the position of a Shrewsbury man at Magdalen at the present time ? He has a chance of eight fellowships of double value, instead of having the certainty, it may be, of two fellowships at half the value, and a chance only of the foundation fellowships, which, of course, as they were only four in number, was a much smaller chance. if you regard the question of emolument simply, a Shrewsbury man going up on one of tliese exhibitions to Magdalen College, has, as you will see, the chance of a far greater amount of the total fund than he iiad under the former system ; because a Shrewsbury man now may have the chance of any or all of these eight fellowshijis which are at present constituted, whereas jjreviously he hud only the chance of those two fellowships which were equivalent in value to one of the present fellowships, and he had also his chance of four foundation fellowships. Earl of DevoH.^ He had the certainty of two fellowships, had he not ? Mr. Vernon Harcoiirt.] Yes, my Lord ; he had the certainty of two. Earl of Derby.] Against the chance of eight? Mr. Verfion Harcourt.] Yes ; and the two he was certain of were equivalent to one of the present eight. Therefore, regarding it in a money point of view, a Shrewsbury man, or, more correctly, two Shrewsbury men, may have been said to have had the certainty of one of the existing fellowships, and he had only then the chance of four of half the value. Practically, then, if you regard in a money point of view, supi)osing a Shrewsbury man to be a competent man in the college, he is better off in his chances of emolument than he was before. And, my Lords, this is not a hypothesis, it is a fact. At the present moment iliere are seven fellowshijis at Magdalen ; and of those fellowships three are held Ijy Shrewsbury men, and I am instructed that it is highly probable that one about to become vacant will be occupied also by a Shrewsbury man. Earl of Derby.'] Have those fellowships been so obtained since the passing of ■ tlie University Statutes? (90.) ji M 3 Mr. 278 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 89th May 1865. JVli- . Vernon Harcourt.'\ Two of tliem have been o1)tainGd since the passino: of the Universiry Statutes. I have no hesitation in saying that one of the results of the existing condition of things -that is to say, of the existence of the Millington scholarships at Magdalen — is to send up men who have received that admirable training \\hich the Shrewsbury men do receive under the tuition of Dr. Kennedy, to Magdalen, and that the Shrewsbury men, without any disjiaragemcnt to the other men at Magdalen, Mre the best men at Magdalen, and that they do get the majority of the Magdalen fellowships. What has been the effect of the Uni- versity Reform Statutes upon them ? It has been to throw open to them the chance, and it actually has thrown open to them the enjoyment, of a greater share of the emoluments of Magdalen than they could have possessed before. If your Lord- ships look at the whole fund divided into eight parts, supposing, as I am instructed is highly probable, that the Shrevtsbury men have four fellowships almost imme- diately, 30U will see tliat they have become possessed of a moiety of the whole of the emoluments. Now, under the former system, the two Millington fellowships were only equivalent to one ; and then there were the four open fellow- ships besides. I have not the figures by me to give your Lordships the exact proportion, but it is ])erfectly obvious that the proportion which they may obtain, and actually are obtaining, of the emoluments of Magdalen College is larger than under any conceivable circumstances they could have obtained before the altera- tion of the statutes. Therefore the two fundamental propositions upon which the scheme of Dr. Kennedy is based seem to me erroneous ; he ibunds himself, first of all, on the fact that the alienation was for the sole benefit of Magdalen College, and secondly, on the statement that it was for the injury of Shrewsbury School. I can illustrate this matter by taking the cases of two gentlemen whom I may venture to name. The first is a gentleman \\\\o is «ell known, at any rate, to one of your Lordships present ; a gentlerr>an who came out third classic in a year when to be third classic was a high honour, when the two first places were occupied in joint tenancy by my Lord Lytteltoii and Dr. Vaughjai. I refer to Mr. May. Mr. May was a Millington fellow of Magdalen ; he was third classic and a wrangler in the year 1838. He was compelled, in consequence of ihe existing state of the Millington foundation and the rules of the college at that period, to vacate his fellowship. Under the existing state of things Mr. May would not have vacated his fellowship; he would have kept it. Now, if Shrewsbury sends up such men as Mr. May to Magdalen, it is idle to contend that the change in the statutes has been a disadvantage. Mr. May would have had a fellowship of double value, and he would have kept it instead of vacating it if the present state of things had been in existence during his time. Tiierefore it is idle to pretend that, practically, the operation of the statutes has been injurious to Shrewsbury Millington fellows at Magdalen College. I may mention the case of another gentleman well known to many of your Lordships — Mr. Thring, ihe Government draughtsman. He was third classic in 1841, was a Millington fellow of Shrews- bury, and he was obliged, in the same manner as Mr. May, to vacate his fellow- ship in consequence of its being held on base tenure or tenancy-at-will. He again would have been placed in a far more favourable position than he actually occupied if the University Statutes had been in force in his time. It would be impossible, I think, to give instances which more completely dispose of the notion that Shrewsbury has suffered from the changes which have taken place under the University Statutes. Then, my Lords, I come to the next proposition of Dr. Kennedy : he says that at present the estate which was intended for the equal benefit of two public insti- tutions is three-fourths of it appropriated to the benefit of one of those public in- stitutions. I must siiy that I had some difficulty at first in conceiving how the fraction of three-fourths was arrived at. But I think he takes it thus: he says, you have one-half of the entire amount in the shape of the fellowships. I have already dealt with that. Then he says, you have half the advantage of the existing scholarships, which together with the fellowships, makes three- fourths, and we have only one-fourth; meaning, of course, half tlic scholarships. I think it was Burke who said that in political arithmetic twice 2 did not always make 4 ; I think that observation is applicable to this argument of Dr. Kennedy's, because it seems to me that when tlie college and the school enjoy the scholarshi))s. it is an arithmetical fallacy to state that each of them have a divided half; on the con- trary they hold it not in severalty, but in jointure ; the advantage is entire to both. To SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ll.L.] 'J79 To say that because the college is advantaged b}' the exliibitioiis, therelbre half 29th May 1865. the advantage is lost to the school, seems to me entirely a fallacious argument. It is an advantage which can be, and is common, to both ; both arc seized of the advantage to be derived from that connection, and therefore to say tliat the school only enjoys one-fourth is practically, as I say, an arithmetical fallacy. Now, my l>ords, we do not conceal that we conwider that the colleg'* is highly benefited by these scholarshijis. Tt is an inducement, no doubt, at Shrewsbury School ; a school where an admirable education is given, to send up good men to Magdalen College. I do not think that because we are advantaged by that, your Lordships will be disposed to think the worse of the institution. IJut is Shrews- bury damnified by that, and Imw do they propose to show that.' I have looked carefully throng' 1 Dr. Kennedy's evidence, and I cannot see practically that he says much up n that point. There is a jtassage, at page 314, which is the only place, I think, in Avhich he deals with anything except what I have ventured to call the retaliatory principle of his scheme, and when he comes to speak of any mischief or injury done to Shrewsbury School by these fellowships, liis evidence does not seem strong. Lord Clarendon asks him this question : " I suppose it is considered as a disadvantage that the boys should be bound to go to Magdalen Colleger" Dr. Kennedy, with a candour which I am sure he would always exercise, does not accept that 'n its integrity; ho says, "I wish to say with regard to Magdalen College, that you cannot have a more respectable well-conducted college. We have the greatest possible respect for the master and for the mem- bers of the college ; but it is one of the smallest colleges in the University, and of course it must be for the benefit of Shrewsbury School to have the choice as open as possible." Therefore his evidence rather goes upon some general principle, that he would prcler to get rid of a small college, than contains any assertion that any injury or mischief to the school has accrued in consequence of the existing condition of things. Certainly, I think that, even from tlie instances I have cited to you, and there are a great many more that might be named, Shrewsbury has no reason to complain of the education which its scholars have received at Magdalen. They have been men distinguished in the University ; they have had the advantages of the University, and all the benefits wliich that Lniversity is capable of confer- ring; they have greatly distinguished themselves, to the honour of the school in ■which they were originally educated, and also to the honour of the college to which they had, in con-equeuce of this institution, become aiiiliated. There does seem to be laid before your Lordships no practical evidence of any mischief or any evil consequent upon this state of things which has continued so long. My Lords, it is not in this case as if the whole of Shrewsbury School were confined to Magdalen College, that is not the state of things. We are dealing with four scholarships out of 34, as is proved by this Report. There are, there- fore, 30 scholarships which may be dealt with in other places, as regards other colleges. Now can it be said that for 424 boys going up from Shrewsbury to the University, there is an evil in four of them being destined for Magdalen College. It does not seem from any evidence that has been adduced before you that that could be contended, unless, as I said before, it is placed upon the general principle of buying learning in the cheapest market, and selling it in the dearest, which seems to have been a principle, 1 understand, abandoned by Dr. Kennedy himself. He seems to admit that the princii)le of the application of schools to certain colleges is not a disadvantage. Then I do think, if he admits that jiroposition, that he ought to have adduced some positive evidence why the affiliation to Maii- dalen College, short of simply saying that it is a small college, should be a disad- vantage. 1 hope 1 am committing no treason against the royal and religious founda- tion of Trinity College, to which I, myself, had the honour to belong, in saying that I do not conceive it would be any advantage to the University that everything should be absorbed into the large college* ; that there is an advantage in the variety of education, and in the diversity of operation which takes place in the University from the existence of distinct and several corporations of this descrip- tion. And if the object of annihilating this institution, which it is not pretended has operated injuriously, be for the purpose of diverting the students from the small colleges, it certainly remains to be proved that such an effect \vould be an advantage. Now, my Lords, my attention has been called to the fact, appearing from the (90.) M M 4 evidence 280 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •igtii May 1865. evidence and tlie Reporf of the Commissinnors, tliat a much more recent inistitu- tion than that of the Millington schoUxrships is not, as 1 understand, pro])osed to be disturbed. The Savers Gift at Harrow vras an institution founded in 1830 for two scholarsliips. from Harrow to Cains (College, Cambiidge. It is alluded to in the 4th volume of the Report, page 154. As I understand, that institution is meant to be left untouched, surely that seems to be a somewliat anomalous and inconsis- tent form of proceeding that you should be dealing, in the case of Shrewsbury, with the Millington schohirships at Magdalen, and that you should be leaving utterly untouched and unchanged the Saver's Gift at Harrow, which is affiliated to Cains College. I have alreadv stated to vour Lordshi|)S that I thought our "ood husbandry, or their good husbandry, to give them the credit of ir, in accumulating the 10,300 /. Consols, has really been the source of the scheme which has been brouglit before the Commissioners, because I find in Dr. Kennedy's evidence, at question ID, that lie says, " Let the college take the estate and give us the money for the benefit of Shrewsbury School, in such a way as the Commissioners may think ])roper to recommend Parliament to sanction." Then, at the end of Appendix L., to which I have already referred your Lordships, there are several schemes for dealing with this 10,000 /., and, in fact, for disposing of the skin of the bear, when killed. In the paper put in by Dr. Kennedy, at page 68, he says, " Scheme 3. The Milling- ton capital, with that of the trustees, might be sufficient to purchase one house, and to erect buildings on a more limited scale, for the accommodation of 120 or 130 boarders."' According to that, my Lords, the whole scheme of the scholarships, the whole ideas of Dr. Millington, are to go by the board altogether. He having left es- tates for the pupose of founding scholarships, the object of the proposed change is not so much that they aie to be open scholarships to all the world, but it is in point of fact that those accumulated sums of money which the authorities of Shrewsbury hajipen at the present moment to want for their own purposes, are to be reft from their connection with the seholarshijis, and be disposed of for a purpose which is not at all that which the original founder of the benefaction intended. Your Lordships will see that there are various schemes suggested liy Dr. Kennedy, but in all of them the Millington Fund, the accumulated 10,000/., appear as the most conspicuous jiart. That really, I take it, is the secret of the whole of this pro- position ; it all proceeds from a desire to use that fund for purposes other than those it was intended for, because obviously the original intention was to insti- tute scholarships for the education of jiersons at the University. Then, my Lords, there are some questions which were asked of Dr. Kennedy to whicii I shall call your attention. He is asked how he has been satisfied with the elections made at Magdalen College. At question 36 he is asked, " In making their election, what has been the standard by whicli they have made the selection r" His answer is, " 1 hat 1 am unable to state." He adds, "I should say they have dealt fairly by the school." That is the evidence of Dr. Kennedy upon this matter ; that there really is no ground of complaint whatever. Then he is asked again, " They have done it by examination .- — Yes, they have done it by examination. I do not think they have rejected a candidate; indeed, if I thought a boy from .Shrewsbury was not likely to pass a fair examination, I should strongly reconnnend him not to go up." Is not that a state of things which is satisfactory ? Upon Dj-. Kennedy's own sliowing he selects out of his Shrewsbury boys some of his best boys who he knows will pass a satisfactory and creditable examination, he sends them up to Magdalen College, and, as he says, Magdalen College has dealt fairly by the school. The men from Slirewsbury go up and dis- tinguish themselves at the Ihiiversity, they having been brouglit up to Magdalen College by those scholarsliips. They then have ojien to them what tliev never had open to them before, the whole emoluments of the college; being double the value of that whicli they ever before enjoyed. That seems to be a state of things which is both advantageous to the collea;i; and to the school. On the one hand the college still has the advantage of its connection by this channel pipe with the learning of Shrewsbury School, and on the other hand when the Shrewsbury men come up to Cambridge, they have the advantage of these open and more valuable fellowships. Now, my Lords, there is only one other point to which I have to call your attention, and that is, who are the persons who are requesting this change r I have called your Lordships' attention to the memorial, and to the evidence of Dr. Kennedy. I think that that memorial', for the reason I have ventured to state to you. SELKCT COMMITTEK ON THK PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [ H.L.J -Jfil you, is foiiiuled upon ciToneous aHStniii)tioiis — eiToiicous jis to the courwo vvliicli '^91'' May iBe,--. hay been taken with ret'ereuee to the colk-^e, and erroneous also with reference to - tnc existintf interests of the sehool. I3ut hen; there are parties who are entitled certainly to your attention. Here is the Petition upon your Lordships' table, " Of the Governors and Trustees of the Free Grammar .^ehool of Kin<>- Edward the Sixth, at Shrewsbury, in the County of Salop." Tlu-ii' Petition states, '-'riiat the provisions conluined in the siid Bili,witli reference to the fonnatiou of the future governiuiibody of the s^id ^raniinar sciiool of K.in^- Edward tlie Sixth at Shrews- bury, with the unlimited ])owers projjosed to be entrusted to that bc)dy, will not, in the opinion of your Petitioners, prove benetieial to the due management and con- trol of the ati'airs of the said Foundation ; aiul further, that as by tlie said bill ihe connection which has hitherto existeil between the Colleges of St. John and Magdalen, in the University of Cambridge', and this Foundation, is projmsed to be severed, your Petitioners subnut tliat no sufficient reason woidd exist for a portion of the governing body being elected by those colleges." That is the inronsistenev in the sehcTue of the Bill to which the Noble Earl has already directed attention. Then they ])roceed to make this statement, to which I pray your attention : — " Your Petitioners, however, feel bound to state, that sucli connection has liitlierto proved beneficial to the school; and your Petitioners slronglv oiijeet to such tie being broken, as now proposed." Now, my Lords, that is the Petition of the Governors and Trustees of Siirew>- bury Scliool. Wliat is there on the other hand which should induce you to come to an opposite conclusion? What is the evident inconvenience, and the evil at present existing which, when the Governors and Trustees of tiie sciiool pray you to leave mutters as they are, w hich deter you from doing so ? When we, too, on behalf of our interest in these four scholarships, ask you iiot to disturii the existing arrangement, where is the evidence which is before your Lordship-, which should induce you to take an opposite course? 1 humbly think that the materials for such a conclusion are not to be found either in the memorial of the four Mil- lington Trustees, or in the evidence which Dr. Kennedy has laid before yon. Before I sit down, I have one other observation to make to your Lordships ; of course one never knows what may be ihe views of a Committee on such a point. I should think tliat looking at the evidence in this matter, vou will conu' to the conclusion that no change is necessary. But if on the otlier liand. you should think that the proportion of the scholarships given to .\Jagdalen College is too large, having reference to the character of Slirewsburv School, and haviu"- reference to the character of Magdalen College, of course that is a matter that will be in your hands to deal with as a question of degree; but we do ask your Lordships, most earnestly, not absolutely and entirely to sever the tie between us, and to destroy that institution which Dr. Millington founded, intending it to be preserved, and which has worked with great advantage, as we believe, both to tiie school and to the college. The Honourable and Reverend LATIMEll NEVILLE, m..v„ is called in; and Examined by Mr. Vernon Harcoiirt, as follows : 1490. YOU are the Master of Magdalen College, Cambridge? The Hon. and Rev. I am. Latimer yeville. 1491. 1 have stated the facts with reference to the Millington Foundation ; I do not know that I need take you through them in detail ; were those facts correctly stated with reference to the original condition of the Millington Fellow- ships at Magdalen College ? Quite so. 1492. In the year I860, I think the University Commission were dealing with the Millington Fellow.shij)s at Magdalen ("ollege / They were. 1493. Earl Stdnhajie.] Were you master at that time ? Yes, I became master in 1853. 1494. Mr. Vernon Harcourt.'] First of all let me ask 3 ou this ; was the dealing with the Millington FelloMships, and converting them into open Foundation Fellow- ships, a thing done at the instance, or by the desire of the college at all / Certainly not. (90.) N N 1495. As M.A. 282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. and Rev. 1495. As far as you were eonoeriied, you would rather that the fellowsliips had "*' Certainly. 39th May 1865. 1496. Did you consider, according to the statement that has l)eeii made, that the dealing witli tlie fellowships as they wore dealt with by the Univ('r';itv Com- missioneis was for the sole benefit of the college ? Certainly not. 1497. You yielded, and yielded unwillingly, to the desire of the Uiiiver.^ity Commissioners to establish the thing upon a new basis r We felt tliat we could not resist it. 1 4uS. In your opinion, is the situation of the Shrewsbury men who come up to Ma^dahni, made worse with reference to their share in the emoluments of tho? college bv the changes which have taken place since the University Commission commenced their proceedings, remembering of course that they have c asod to have the monopoly of the two Millington Fellowships ? I should say it is better. 1409. The Shrewsbury men, I suppose, are amongst your best niin, to use the Cambridge jdirase, at Magdalen, are they not ? Yes, they are. 1500. And they are the men who have the best chance of fellowships at .Mag- dalen College ? Certainly. 1.501. And the* fellowships of Magdilen College having become now open and available to all tiie Magdalen men, in your opinion do the Shrewsbury men get, and will they continue to get, the largest share of them ? There are three upon the present foundation, and it is exceedingly probable that a fourth will be shortly elected. 1502. ^Vill you tell the Committee what the value of the fellowships held by Shrewsbury men, at Magdalen College now is, as compared to what it was before the change ? The vahie of the two fellowships obtained by Shrewsbury men, since the change, is 1 75 /. a year each . 1 503. Earl Stanhope.'] Thev are not limited to any term of years? No." 1504. Mr. Vernon Ilarcourf.] In that respect how does the state of af-Fairs differ now from the condition of things before the University Commission, with reference to the tenure of those Millington Fellowshitis ? In old times, the fellowshii.is wore only tenable for tin-ee years, unless the holder took orders; the fellows only held them, in fact, at the will of the master. i.-jo^. As a fact, the two gentlemen whose name.-i I referred to, did lose their F'ellowships under the old s-ate of things, and would have kept them under the present? Just so. 1506. Earl of Powis] Were the Millington Fellows formerly eligible for Foundation Fellowships ? Yes, they might be removed from one iouudation to the other. 1507. Mr. Vernon Harcourt.] P>ut in former times you had very few Founda- tion Feilowsiiips ; only four .' Only four, 1 think. i,r,o8. Earl oi' Fowls.] Was Mr. Wartcr, who is now one of the trustees of Shrewsbury School, formerly a Foundation Follow .' Yes. 1.509. Mr. Vt'rnon Harcowt.] Tho Foundation Fellows, under the old system, must equally have gone into orders, must they not ? They must. I --,10. Therefore, no person in the position of Mr. .May, or Mr. Thriug, unless they SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h.L.J 283 they had taken holy orders, couldjliave coiitiiiMed to hnM their fellowships as such Thrllo,,. nn,i Rev. persons nii^ht now : Lathurr Nevilk, No. M-A- 1.51 I. Even though they l:a(I ^ot a 1 ouiuiation Fellowship thoy could nol have -igth M^j 1865. continued to hold it ? ' Quite so. 1,51-2. 1 di> not understand you to assi'ut to the siatenient of Ur. Kennedy tliat the dealing- v, itli those fellowships was either for the sole benefit ot Magdalen College, or that it was entirely to the detriment of Sim wsburv Scliool r No, 1 do not agree at sdl to that. 1.513. Should you regard Avith great regret the removal of iho.se Shrewsbury scholarships Irom the connection with Magdalen C'ollc're .- Veiy much s'j. 1.514. ^ on regard your connection wiili Shrewsbury Sciiool as one of the most valuable in.-titutions and foundations of your college ? Certainly. 1515. '1 hey have sent yu, I suppose, some of the best men you have had there r Yes ; we have had some very good men indeed from there. i5i'>. Earl of Devon. \ Whai are the numbers in your college^ Between 40 and 50 at ])resent. 1.517. Duke o^ Mailhorongh.'] Are those scholarships in your college, which are obtained by Shrewsbury scholars, gained by open competition in the school before they come up r No ; there is an e.xamination in the college. 1 ,51 S. A test or a competitive examination ? A test examination. i5;y. Are the scholarships given to sons of burgesses in the first instance? 1 think not ; T believe there has been no claim of that sort put forward. I.--) 20. Then, is the advantsige that you consider you derive from those scholar- ships, that yen get clever young men coming uj) to your college? Yes, I think so. 1 .521. Is that the reason why you are disinclined to see t!ie severance r That is one very great reason. 5522. What are your general grounds for being of o|)inion that it is undesirable to .'•ever them ? I think a small college cannot compete with a large one without some advan- tages of tliat sort ; there must be some inducements of that kind to bring young men to a small college. 1523. Earl of Fowls.'] Questions have been raised as to the comparative advan- tage to a young man of going to a large college, as opposed to being confined to a small one ; are there not some corresponding advantages in the greater rapidity with which he rises to college fellowships, and other college offices, in a small body - I can hardly give a decisive answer to that question, 1.5 -24. Earl of Dirhy.'\ In the event of a severance taking place between Shrewsbury School antl Magdalen College, do you see any reason whv one of the governing body should be elected by Magdalen College ? I do not think that there is any rea.son why there should be one of the governing body from Magdalen College. 1525. That is to say, supposing Magdalen College, by the severance of the connection, should have ceased to have any particular interest in Shrewsbury- School ? Yes, that is what I mean. i.52f'. Lord Lyttelton.'\ Would Magdalen Colle.iie feel at all consoled for its loss by such a provision r I do not know ; I cannot say that. (90.) N N 2 1527. Lord 284 MINLTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. and Rev. 1527. Lord Wrottcsley.'] What is the average^ number of your uiuler-graduates ? L'li'mcr ycrille, There are between 40 and 50 at the present time. M,A. 1508. Duke of Marlboroiii/h.'] Wliat are tlie otiier eight fellowsliips to which :L )tli May itJ Cip. ^j^^ learned counsel in his opening speech alludes ? There are only seven at pnsent; there ar<' to be eight as soon as we are able to fill them all up by the new constitution. 1.529. Were all those fellowships thrown open by the Cambridge University Commission, or were they open before ? They were thrown o])en then : they arose out of bye-fellowships which had been amalgamated and aljolished. 1.530. Did they arise out of property belonging to Magdaleu College Cam- bridge ? Yes, -with the exception of the funds of the Millington Trust. 1 53 1 . In the other cases, the property belonn:s to Magdalen College, Cambridge? In every case, I think, except in the Millington case. 1532. And three if not four of those scholarships are iield by Shrewsbury scholars r There an' three held at present by Shrewsbury scholars, and prol>ably there will be a fourth. 1533. Earl of Fowis ] Does Magdalen College itself hold property in trust for t-xhibitions from other schools ? Yes; from Haversham, Wisbeach, Leeds, and Halifax. 1.534. Those scholarships were not disturbed by the University Commissioners? No, they were not. 153,5. Do you think it is sufficient ground for divesting Magdalen College of those Millington scholarships, that the Trustees happen to be certain persons under Dr. Millington's will, instead of being the Master and Fellows of Magdalen College r No, I do not. The Witne-s is directed to withdraw. Ordered, that the Committee be Adjourned tiil Monday the 12th of June, One o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE UN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h.L.] 2^5 APPENDIX. Ci*0!) NN3 [ 2b6 ] LIST 1^ APPENDIX. Appendix A. (No. 1.) — Papers handed in by Mr. Caldecott, 12 May 1865: page Epitome of School List, 1843 to 1864 — Table showing the Average of Foundationers for the 22 Years --__...- 287 (No. 2.)— Paper handed in by Mr. Cottrell, 12 May 1865 : Eugby School Charity — Statement showing the Income, Expenditure, and Value of School Buildings --_-;___- 290 Appendix B. Valuation of Harrow School Estate, 1865, by C'has. F. Humbert, Land Agent, Watford, Hertfordshire --------- 292 Appendix C. Paper handed iu by Dr. Temple, 19 May 1865: Report for the Year 1863 and 1864. by the Head Master of Rugby School 293 Appendix D. Paper handed in by the Rev. H. M. Rutler : Statement as to School Buildings erected at Harrow _ _ _ _ 305 Appendix E. Answei-s of W. Sharpey. M.D., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee ------------ 306 Appendix F. Answers of William Allen Miller, m.d., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee - - - - - - - - - - -307 Appendix Ci. Answers of Tliomas Henry Huxley, f. k. s., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee --.--._._- 30B Appendix H. Answers of John Tyndall, k. k.S., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee - - - - - - - - - - - -310 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1350 1851 1852 1853 1851 r 287 ] Appendix A. (No. 1.) PAPERS liaudcd in by Mr. Caldecott, 12 May 186.5. EPITOME of School List, 1843 to 1864. Table showing tlie Average of Fonndationers for the 22 Years : Jnne. 65 55 64 01 66 60 76 75 83 68 62 Christnias. 60 09 70 65 62 07 71 87 64 03 01 51 1855 1656 1857 1858 1859 1800 1861 1862 1863 1804 June. 47 49 50 52 65 69 67 69 64 68 Christmas. 1,393 51 ■ 48 44 50 77 65 68 71 71 70 1,405 1393 1405 1 2 59 2798 ) 1399 (63 i4 = the averag-e. 132 79 66 13 22 A[i()irj(iix ^. 66 i average of last 7 years. JUNE. CHRISTMAS. Foundationers. Non- Foundationer?, Total. Foundationers. Non- Foundationprs. Total. 1843: Upper School Lower School 43 22 326 34 369 56 40 20 342 34 382 54 65 360 425 60 376 426 1844: Upper School Lower School 35 20 350 -13 385 63 46 23 353 ' 399 45 68 55 ::93 448 69 398 467 1845: Upper School Lower School 44 20 362 44 406 64 49 21 364 42 413 63 64 406 470 70 406 476 1846; Upper School Lower School 45 16 370 415 40 i 56 47 18 372 4)9 42 60 61 410 ' 471 05 414 1 479 (90.) N N 4 ■288 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THP, Appendix A. Epitome o t' School List, 1843 to IHGi—coiUiiiued ■ - JUNE. CHRISTMAS. Foundationers. 1 „ ^°'}- Tl.TAL. loundationers. Foundationers. , p„^„d;';;;„„,. i Total. 1847: Upper School Lower School 47 19 377 424 48 67 50 379 12 40 429 52 66 425 491 62 419 481 1848: Upper School Lower School 47 13 390 37 437 50 54 13 378 19 432 32 60 427 4b7 67 397 464 1849: Upper School Lower School 59 17 370 429 17 ' 34 59 ! 310 12 1 18 369 30 76 1 387 , 46:; 7 1 328 399 1850: Upper School Lower School 67 8 354 421 10 18 55 298 32 78 353 110 1 75 364 439 S7 376 . 463 1851 : Upper School Lower School 53 30 294 »9 347 119 51 13 317 52 368 65 83 1 383 46(; 64 369 433 1852: Upper School Lower School 50 18 318 368 70 88 43 20 264 114 307 134 68 ' 3SS [ -156 63 378 441 1853 : Upper School Middle School Lower School 43 19 25 <; 299 1 _ 96 115 21 19 21 117 153 83 138 172 104 62 352 414 61 353 ' 414 1854 : Upper School Middle School Loner School 11) 19 20 119 152 S3 138 171 103 16 18 17 111 149 61 127 167 78 58 354 412 51 32 I 372 1855: Upper School Middle School Lower School 11 113 124 2(1 146 166 If; 411 56 13 22 16 102 115 138 160 36 : 52 47 299 ' 34 (; 51 276 327 1856: Upper School Middle School f.ower School 15 ' 102 18 121 16 54 117 139 70 18 14 16 1 101 119 105 j 119 61 lu 49 277 326 48 257 ' 305 1857: U'pper School Middle School Lower School 17 ; 106 II 110 III 50 123 124 60 17 ] 100 17 107 10 53 117 124 63 ,(i •_'(;(; 316 44 26'" 304 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS DILL. [h. L. ] 289 Parents of 70 Foundationers at Christmas, 1864. Occupy Houses. Gross estimated Value. 10 10 10 6 4 2 1 ♦ 13 55 £. not exceeding 40 ?? )) 50 » 1' 60 >> )) 70 » J) 80 '> jj 90 '1 >j 100 eiceedinff 100 Epitome o f School List, 1343 to 18Gi— continued. JUNE. C II R I S T i\r A S. Foundationers. Noii- Founilationcrs. Total. Fouadationers. Non- Foundationers. Total. 1858: Upper School Middle School Lower School 14 21 17 109 121 C4 123 142 81 9 o.> 1!' 119 135 59 128 157 7« 5-2 2<.)i 3-16 50 313 363 1859: Upper School Middle School Lower School 14 26 25 124 170 57 138 196 8 '2 15 29 121 194 70 130 227 99 65 351 416 77 385 462 1860: Upper School Middle School Lower School 21 26 126 210 59 147 232 85 19 24 149 199 49 168 221 73 69 395 464 65 007 1 462 1861 : Upper School JMiddle School Lower School 22 23 22 159 195 46 181 218 68 21 26 21 150 201 45 171 227 - 66 67 400 407 68 396 464 1862: Upper School Middle School Lower School 23 29 17 155 202 42 178 231 59 22 34 15 151 204 37 173 238 52 69 399 468 71 392 463 1863; Upper School Middle School Lower School 23 28 13 155 222 32 178 250 45 27 30 14 153 216 39 180 246 53 64 409 473 71 408 479 1864: Upper School Middle School Lower School 26 32 10 158 224 35 184 250 45 32 23 10 136 250 21 188 278 31 68 417 485 70 427 497 Appendix A. * Of these 13, nine are owners, tivo of them tradesmen ; two are masters, with boaidiniT-houses : two are tenants. Of the 55, 21 are widows ; 13 are of the tradesman class. (90.) O 290 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix A. (No. 2.) PAPER handed in by Mr. Cottrell, 12 May 1865. Rugby School Charity. STATEMENT showing the Income, Expenditure, and Value of School Buildings. Average income for seven years, ending 1860, as per Blue Book, vol. 2, fol. 296 - Annual income for 1863. Mr. Hefford's evidence, as per Blue Book, vol. 4, fol. 243 £. £. s. d. 5,653 14 11 5,577 800 6,377 Trustees have during present Century expended between 50,000 1, and 60,000 /. in Nevr School Buildings iind additional Land and Houses for Schools. Expenditure : Management — Salaries, repair?, rates, taxes, &c. Almshouses --------- Foundationers — Capitation of 15| guineas for 70, and 23s.\ for .-.-.--. Writing master ..---.- Drawing master ------- General Payments for School : Salaries of head and eight other masters Chaplain and chapel establishment - Librarian, &c. . - - - Exhibitions to the universities - Examiners and scholarships Sundries - - - . - Masters' fellowships Balance in favour of charity Annual value of head master's house and boarding house, &c., as per Mr. Heft'ord, vol. 4, fol. 246, say . - . - Schools and playground, &c., say ------ £. s. d. £. s. d. 1,076 14 - 255 3 - 1 331 17 1,219 15 - 50 _ _ 20 - - 1,289 15 £. 2,621 12 - 1,073 6 8 131 - - 15 15 - 960 - - 102 18 _ 122 1 7 2,405 1 3 700 _ _ 3,105 1 3 £. 5,726 13 3 450 £. 650 - - 6,377 - - 450 - - 900 - Amount contributed for each foundationer, — capitation Masters' salaries, exhibitions, &c. &c. . - - Add further for 700 1, masters' fellowships Add value of schoolhouse, playground, and buildings, 000 I, per annum ------- £. i. d. - 17 8 6 - 35 5 8 £. 52 14 2 - 10 - - £. 62 14 2 dOOl. - 12 17 - £. 76 11 2 Amount contributed by foundation for each of the present 70 foundationers. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 291 Appendix A. RuGBT School Charity — continued. Referring to Dr. Temple's Evidence, Report vol. 2, fol. 312, 313, 314: It appears that the honours gained by Rugbcians at the two Universities were 245 in 10 years, 1851 — 1860, and of these 5.5 were gained by foundationers, according to relative numbers, which much exceeded their proportion. The present exhibitions from Rugby School to the Universities, shown in school list at Christmas 1864, were 20, five of which were held by foundationers, exceeding their proportion according to their numbers in the school, the numbers being at Chrietmas 1864: Foundationers --------70 Non-foundationers - - - - - - - 428 498 The following foundationers now in the school were invited into the boarding houses on account of their personal standing and moral influence : Hammond. I Haslam. Lawrence. I Holland. (90.) 2 292 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix B. VALUATION of Harrow School Estate, 1865, by Chas. F. Humbert, Land Agent, Watford, Hertfordshire. The Baknet Estate, Plan No. , comprising Houses and Land at Barnet, Hertfordshire : Mr. Burr, the Crown Inn, Barnet, and about 3^ acres of land - Mr. Cornwall, private house, adjoining the Crown Inn, and about 4 J acres of land ----•---•- Mrs. Gorton, three tenements, adjoining the Crown Inn, and about ] J acres of land adjoining, and 2 acres on the Common Mem. — All the above premises are old and out of repair, but capable of great improvement, and the land is valuable. Preston Estate, Harrow, Middlesex, Plan No. 2, comprising — A farm of about 243 acres, and let to Mr. Thomas Sneezum Mem. — This is a fine grass farm, and its situation is very desirable. It is yearly increasing in value, even beyond its agri- cultural value, like most land of the same class situate near London. The Alperton Estate, in the Parish of Harrow, comprising four detached pieces of Meadow Land, Plan No. 3 : No. 1,563 on parish map, a meadow, containing 1 r. 29 p. No. 1,565 on the parish map, a meadow, containing 2 r. 5 p. - Nos. 1,487 and 1,488, two meadows, containing together 12 a. Or. Up. by the parish map .-..-..-- No. 1,482, a meadow, containing I a. 3 r. 16 p. by the parish map - Let at .......---- The Bedfordshire Estate : A farm at Maulden, Bedfordshire, containing about 146 acres of arable land ...--...--. Mem.— This farm is well situate, but the soil is for the most part sandy and gravelly, poor and burning. I am informed that the present tenant holds under a term of 21 years, and that he took the farm a few years since in bad condition. The Harrow Estate : Four houses, and a ground rent of 10 I. per annum, in Harrow House and garden in Harrow, Mrs. Brownrigg .... Four shops, two cottages, and two fields, yard and workshop, Royston, Woodbridge, Green, and others --.-.-- Garden in Harrow, Mr. Holmes Shop in Harrow, Miss Arnold ....... Two shops in Harrow, Mr. Clarke and Mr. Dell .... Mr. Butler, the head master, house and premises and 6 a. 3 r. 37 p. of land ..--------- The Library ----------- The Pupil-room -- The School and Racket-courts ....... The Cricket-ground (about seven acres of meadow, and valuable for building purposes) -- A field at Greenhill, about two acres of meadow, and valuable for building purposes The Chapel Rent produced by the Harrow Estate, as stated in thel printed Report ...... .J Mem.— "So annual value has been assigned to the Chapel, which occupies, however, a valuable site of building land. Mr. Butler's house, the Library, and the Pupil-room, also occupy valuable building sites; buildings commanding good rents were taken down to make room for them, and in putting a value on these three erections, I have considered these facts rather than the capital that has been expended in constructing them. Estimated Present Rent. 40 35 25 420 - - 31 10 146 - - 325 1,022 10 Annual Value. f. s. d. 60 - - 50 - - 35 - - 546 - - 2 10 - 3 - - 30 - - 5 - - 182 - - 65 50 142 8 35 45 450 250 100 500 30 10 Improved Rent. £ 10 - 16 - 10 - 126 . d. 9 - - 36 - - 2,588 10 J, 360 - - l,5Cfi Watford, HcrtfordBhire,\ 11 May 1806. J Chas. F. Humbert, Land Agent and Surveyor. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'l'lJLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.] 293 Appendix C. PAPEK handed in by Dr. Temple, 19 May 1865. To the Honourable tlic Trustees of Rugby School. Appendix C. Report for the Year 1863-64, by the Head Master. My Lords and Gentlemen, The last recommendation made by the Public School Commissioners (Report, p. 55, Rec. xxxii.) is tliis : " The head master should be required to make an annual report to the Governors on tlic state of the school, and this report should be printed. It is desirable tliat tabular returns for the year, substantially resembling those with wliich we have been furnished by the schools, should accomj)any and form part of the report." In accordance with this reconnuendation I propose, if you will allow it, to submit to you every year at your Midsummer meeting such a report as tlie Commissioners appear to mean. In future years, of course, this re]wrt will consist almost entirely of statistics and accounts. But on tlie present occasion it seems my duty to submit to you the result of a careful consideration of all that is recommended by the Commissioners for the im- provement of this school. In doing this I have sought, according to our usual custom, the advice and aid of the other masters. And thougli, of course, there are differences of opinion amongst us in many matters of detail, the general tenour of what I now have to say meets with the concurrence of the whole staff. I cannot begin without saying how much gratitude I feel to be due to the Com- missioners for the pains they have taken to understand our complicated system, and the friendly spirit in which they have looked at our labours. I do not agree with some of their conclusions, and of course 1 must express this disagreement plainly wherever it may be necessary to do so. But no disagreement can interfere with my sense of the considerate- ness, the conscientiousness, the care with which the Commissioners have treated us. I propose to go through the Recommendations which relate to Rugby (pages 298-302), not in precise order as tliey stand, but grouping them together as may be most convenient for discussion. In doing so I shall have sometimes to advise you to decline, or at any rate to postpone, the adoption of the suggestions ; in many cases I think I shall be obliged to point out the necessity of accepting their spirit, but varying their details ; but in general I decidedly advise compliance. I do not think the school is likely to meet with such another opportunity of making a great and permanent improvement. I. — The Trustees, and their Relation to the Head Master. (Recommendations 1, 2, 3, 4, .5. .Pages 298, 209.) The Commissioners recommend that among the twelve trustees four shoidd be elected for eminence in literature or science, that the body of trustees thus constituted should take a much more active part than heretofore in the management of the school, that the powers of the head master should be increased in some respects and limited in others, but in every way more precisely defined. I think the Commissioners are right in advising that the trustees should in future be more fully informed of all tliat is done in the school ; and I propose to make these annual reports the means of giving them this information. I propose in these reports to give not only full statistics of the working and the condition of the school, but also a balance sheet showing precisely the appropriation of all money received as school fees or tuition fees. When this is done, the trustees will alwa3-3 have it in their power to interfere whenever they may think it necessary to do so ; and, short of interference, they will always be able to point out to the head master any arrangement which appears to them either inexpedient at the time or likely to become so afterwards, and to ask for an explanation. The fullest effective control will thus be always within their reach. But I cannot advise the trustees to go beyond this point. The present system has all experience in its favour ; and, I think, not only experience, but reason. The head master of a school like this ought to be a man better capable of (90.) 3 working 294 APPENDIX TO REPORT FRClM THE Appendix C. workino; it well, and better able to initiate improvements than any one else that can be found for the post. If a mistake has been made, and the head master is not capable of this, the worse that can happen is that the school will languish a little, and that improve- ments will be delayed, until the time comes fur electing another head master. But this is a very minor evil in comparison with hampering all head masters by subjecting them to constant interference. For this reason I cannot concur in the recommendation to elect four trustees eminent for literature and science. This recommendation seems to me to rest on an entirely mistaken supposition in regard to the true nature of the services which the trustees can render to the school. What the school needs in the trustees, is good sense and knowledge of the world. The four gentlemen elected for their eminence in literature or science would be perpetually tempted to justify their election by doing what the head master ought to do, and, if he is fit for his post, can do, better than any one else. They would often be tempted to push the interests of their own particular study, to the detriment of general education. They would be almost certain to encourage an amount of interference, which if it hastened or even introduced improvements at the time, would 2:)urchase them at the dear price of diminishing the head master's sense of responsibility - . and freedom of action. I am confident that, in the end, the school would lose much more than it gained. II. — The Course of Study. (Recommendations 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 18, 19. Page 299.) The Commissioners recommend that music, drawing, and natural science, should no longer be treated as optional subjects of study, but made a regular part of the school course. They do not wish to displace the classics as the staple subject of instruction, but they believe that there is no reason to fear that the addition of these studies will have that effect. We already give so much time to other subjects than the classics, that to make any additions whatever must be considered an experiment. I believe that what is proposed by the Commissioners would be a right experiment, and that we ought to try it. I believe too that it will succeed. Some of the other masters are not quite so sanguine about it as I am myself. But if the trustees consent to our trying it we shall certainly all do our best to make it successful. In details, however, I think the head master ought to be left unfettered ; and I should not be prepared to follow the precise directions of the Commissioners. Thus I think it would be unwise to require that the masters who teach natural science should not teach anything else. The jiurpose of the rule is obvious ; namely, to secure that the new 'subject shall get thorough attention. And this purpose I would undertake to secure. But this means of securing it would hamper us extremely, with no good result whatever. In some other respects, too, 1 think the suggestions of the Commissioners capable of improvement, as will ajjpear by the plan that I propose to adopt. I propose to require every boy to learn either music or drawing for the first two years after his admission. After that time his continuing to learn these subjects or not, would be left to the decision of his parents. On the best mode of giving the instruction in music, I have consulted Mr. 'Otto Goldschmidt. I find th.at he is willing to accej)t the position of Musical Examiner, and to come down at the end of eveiy half-year to examine the classes and conduct the school concert. Under his direction two teachers would be required, of whom Mr. Walker, our present organist, would be one. The details would be arranged with Mr. Goldschmidt ; and his great reputation will be enough to satisfy the parents of our scholars that the teaching under his direction will be "thoroughly good. The instruction in drawing can be organised somewhat in the same way, except that one resident teacher will. 1 tliink, be enough. The money assigned by the Commissioners will be enough for the purpose, or at any rate will not fall short beyond our means to sup]>lemcnt. Natural science I jjropose to make a necessary jwrt of the school system, up to the top of our middle school. Boys at this point ought to have a tolerable knowledge of French, and to have learnt the rudiments of German. I do not tliink it would be wise to require both languages and natural science also in tiie upper school. At this point, therefore, parents would choose between German and natural science, and one of tlie two would be discontinued. The money required for teaching natural science, I estimate at two guineas a boy. This is not as much as is assigned to it by the Commissioners; but the Com- missioners seem to propose to put the natural science masters on a better footing than all the others, by giving the senior a high salary at once, whereas in all other cases the higher salary is only attained after some length of service. It is evident that if the natural science masters have tlie same prospects as any other masters, the subject will be fairly dealt with. We shall require one natural science master at once, in addition to our present staff. But Mr. Wilson, the present teacher of natural science, will still continue to take a part in this work, and another of our mathematical staff will be able to do the rest. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE I'UBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [n. L.] 295 III. —Foundation Mastkrb and tiiehi Stipends. (Reconmu'iidations IG, 20, 21. Piigi«299, WO.) The Commissioners recommend that, savino- all vested interests, the stipends now paid to the six senior classical, the senior uiatlieniatical, and the senior modern hinguage masters, shonld cease to lie paid. They do not touch iij)on the dift'erence oC position between fliese masters and the others, but semi to imply that this difi'erence should also be abolished. 11' this were done, these masiershi])s would altogether cease to exist. The chief purpose of the Commissioners in proposing to abolish the payment of these stipends is ])laiuly that the money may be applied to the foundation of ojien scholarships and exhibitions, which, iu their opinion, is a more aj)])ropriate use of it. The foundation of open scholarships is so important, I may almost say so necessary, to the school, that in order to attain it, it may be right to sacrifice the sti[)cnds, until those seholarshijw can be otherwise provided for; but I see no reason for doing away with the difi'erence of ])osition, and strong reason for retaining it. The rule now is that a master on the foundation cannot be dismissed without reference to the trustees. I think it right that the head master should have the absolute apjjointmcnt of all the assistants ; but it is a very legitimate reward for length of service, that a master should at last attain a position from ■which he could not be removed except by the supreme authority. Under all circum- stances, therefore, I think the name and position of the foundation masters should be retained, and the six senior classical masters, the senior mathematical master, and the senior modern language master, should have this distinction by virtue of their greater length of service. Even if the name and position be retained, it is still giving iip a good deal to charge these salaries on the school fees instead of on the estates. It seems to have escaped the notice of the Commissioners, that the one source of payments is a certainty, the other cannot be. And the sense of security under all contingencies is almost as valuable as the money itself. There have been critical periods in the history of the school when this has been proved. And at all times it adds to a man's feeling of independence, and consequently to the perfect freedom and heartiness of his labour, if he knows that he is not altogether at the mercy of the fluctuations of popular favour. The 8cholarshi])s, however, are of such paramount importance, that until some other endowment shall have been provided for them, it seems best to follow the recommenda- tion of the Commissioners. But nothing short of such a reason would justify the change, and It would be wise to restore the stipends to their old footing if ever the school revenues should be able to bear it. One condition, however, which the Commissioners pronounce to be essential, they have not really jarovided for in fact. For they allow that " if the payment of 1,073 /. 6 j?. 8 d., hitherto paid in the form of salaries by the trustees out of the school funds be discon- tinued. It Is necessary that the same amount should be provided from some other source" (j^age 275). They are certainly right ; for even without considering the claims of the present masters, it Is quite certain that it would be fatal to this school to diminish the in- ducements to able men to join our staff. A sum, therefore, must be provided equal in amount to these stipends. Now the Commissioners pi'opose to provide for this, and also for the salaries of the new teachers required, by adding six guineas to the school fee. But they forget in this instance (as Indeed throughout their financial proposals) that a school of this kind fluctuates. The money might be enough just at present, but it is only seven years since the number in the school was 310, and it is impossible to say that the number may not again fall to that point, or even lower. Now, of the six guineas added to the school fees, two would be reqiiired for the natural science, two more or nearly for the music and drawing, and, with the school at 310, the remaining two would only pro- vide 651 I. to pay stipends amounting to 1,073 /. 6 s. 8 d. If the masters are to have an equivalent, seven guineas Instead of six must be the addition ; and even then, in the case supjiosed, the head master woutd lose his stipend, while if the school sank lower, the other masters would also lose a part of what is at present absolutely guaranteed. I must add that I am so satisfied, that for the interests of the school, and without reference to these stipends, it would be wiser to Inci-ease the school fee by at least seven guineas, that I do not scruple to recommend It. IV. — Salaries of the Masters. (Recommendations, 30, 31, 32. Page 300.) The Commissioners while approving of our financial arrangements on the whole, find fault with them for making the diflereuce between the highest and lowest salaries too great, and for making the rise from a low to a high salary too sudden. They propose to correct these faidts by requiring every master of a boarding-house to pay a fine of 6/. for every boarder iu his house, and by redistributing the money thus obtained. The present financial scheme is not quite the same as that described in the evidence given to the Commissioners. To prevent mistake, I will state it here : — (90.) 4 Appendix C. 29G APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix C. 1. School Instruction Fees. The boys pay IS^ guineas, or 16/. 5 s. 6 (/, each for school instructiou. Thi.'j is thus approjiriated : — A. — Paid directly out of School Instruction Fees. Head master, 3 /. 3 s. a boy . _ - Composition of the sixth, 1 /. 1 «. a boy Six senior classical masters, 1 /. Is. each, up to 320 boys Master of lower school, iu addition, 12 s. „ Three junior classical masters, 15 s. each „ Three matlicmatical masters, 10 s. dd. each, two of them limited to 240 /.----- Two modern lan^ruajje masters, 10 s. Qd. eacii - Tlie remainder is paid into the Reserved Fund. £. s. d. - 3 3 — - 1 1 _ oys 6 6 _ jj - 12 _ 2 5 _ of - 1 11 6 - 1 1 - £. 15 19 6 B. — Paid out of Reserved Fund. Three junior classical masters at 240 /. - One master, both classical and mathematical - Assistance in teaching; modern languages £, £. s. d. 720 - - 360 - - ■Jo - - 1,155 - - This leaves an average balance of 270 /. a-year after paying sundry small charges. 2. Tuition Fees. The emoluments from Tuition Fees are governed by the following rules : — 1. Every classical master, except the composition master of the sixth and the master of tlie lower school, may take classical pupils up to 50. 2. The senior mathematical master takes mathematical and natural science pupils, and those classical pupils iu his own house tliat are not above the lower school up to 50. The natural science pupils paying only 5 /. 5 s. are reckoned as only half pupils for this purpose. 3. The two mathematical masters next in order take mathematical pupils up to 50. This I do not find quite satisfactory ; there are not pupils enough to keep so many tutors at work. 4. The junior mathematical master takes mathematical pupils up to 25. 5. The senior modern language master takes classical pupils (chiefly iu his own house) to the top of the middle school. 6. The junior modern language master takes the pupils in his own subject. 3. Stipends paid, hij the Trustees. The head master receives - - - The six senior classical, the senior mathematical, and the senior modern language masters, each 120 /. and /. £. s. d. 113 G H 960 - - £. 1,073 6 8 4. Boarding-Houses. There are eight iKtarding-houses, including the school-house. The head master ha§ the H(;hor>l-house ; five classical mnstors, the senior mathematical master, and the senior modern language master at |)resent hold the others. " ° V The SELKCT COMMITTRE ON TlIK PUHLIC SCHOOLS BILL. [h. L.J 297 The working oflliis sdlieine will be seen in the biilance-shcet given iu the Appendix. Appendix C. I propose to make some ehanges in this scheme in the direction indicated \>y the Com- ■ missioncrs, but I think I can show suificient reason lor not adopting tlic [ireeise letter of their reconjmcndations. The coin|iiaint lliai the difference between tin; liighcst and lowest salaries is too great, rests on a misapprclunsion. The instances which they (jiiote (pagc29.')) arc^ the difli'rence between tlie salaries of the junior and senior classical masters, and the dillerence between the salaries of the junior and senior modern language niasters. Now both tliese are accidental and temporary anomaiic^s. such as will often be found in any large establish- ment, and i)0th have alre^ady been altered. The money assigned to the junior classical master in the accounts which we gave the Conmiissioners, was not paid to one man, but, as was exj)lained in the loot note, to diftl'ient Tnen for temporary services. Again, the junior modern language master, whose salary appeared so small, did not give his whole time to the school, but was at liberty to take pupils elsewhere, and came here with the intention of doing so. There had been no second modern hinguage master before he came ; and he was jiut on a ditterent footing from the other masters, b(jth in regard to work and pay, till circumstances woidd permit me to make a better arrangement. Nor did the senior modern language master obtain his boarding house as being senior modern language master but by virtue of his place on the general list. Our present balance- eheet shows neither of these anomalies, liut of course it may at any time be advisable to make arrangements of this sort ; nor do I think that the Commissioners can mean that we are to be precluded from emplr)ying any one unless we emjjloy him wholly, or that if we give him tvrtial employment we may not ])ay him in proportion. The plan ci the Commissioners for graduating the salaries rests on the assuniption that a boarding-iiouse master has no trouble or anxiety which he would not have as tutor. In accordance with this assumption the ( "ommissioners would assign to the senior classical master who has no boarding house 1,000/., and to the junior classical master who has a boarding-house 1,200 /. (foot note, page 297); but hardly any man would consent to take charge of a boarding-house for an increase of 'iOO I. a-yeur. The increase of responsibility, and coneequoitly of anxiety, tl>c sacrifice of time, liberty, and jirivacv, are far more than could be compensated by so suiali a sum. The result would be that the senior masters would often decline boarding houses altogether. The Conmiissioners have ncit, I think, ([uite appreciated the principle on which our salaries are apportioned. One portion of these salaries depends on length of service, and on that alone. Thus the junior classical masters get 240/., the six senior get (including the 120/. from the trustees) 4.56/.; but with this exception the priueijde of giving a definite payment for a definite service is observed throughout. The j)rivilege of the masters who have lioardiug-Iiouses is not higher pay for the same work, but more work and more pay with it. And with this I do not think it wise to interfere. Nor If it were wise to graduate the salaries iu the way proposed, would a tax of 6 /. a boy on the boarding houses be a just mode of raising the money. In this instance also the Commissioners have forgotten that the .school fluctuates, and the boarding houses fluctuate with it. Now, a boarding-house when half empty gives no profit at all, and a tax of so much a l)oy which might be borne when the house was full would eat up all the profit if the numbers fell, and would turn profit into heavy loss if the numbers fell still further. The changes that 1 ])ropose to make would to some extent produce the result recom- mended by the Commissioners, but they rest on difterent principles. I think it for the interests of the school that a check should be put on the tendency of boarding-houses to grow in size. If the school increases, the number of boarding houses, and not merely the number of boys in each boarding-house, should increase with it. Otherwise, while the number of masters increases, the means of giving them full payment for their services remains stationary. I propose, therefore, iu future nomination to these houses, to put a tax of 6 /. a boy on every boy beyond 40 in a house, and 12 /. a boy on every boy beyond .'iO. This tax falls only on those whose profits are large, ceases to be levied when the profits diminish, and is demanded by the interests of the school. Further, I think it probable that a master of a boarding-house would do his work better if he had assistance in the tuition. The present limit of 50 pupils to a tutor is rather high in all cases, but particularly in the case of masters who have boarding-houses to attend to also. I propose, therefore, to limit all masters who may in future take boarding houses to 36 pupils. Five other classical masters, in order of seniority, I propose to limit to 45, and the rest to 36, In all other respects, I think it will be best to leave the present scheme intact. The 216 /. given to the senior masters without additional work, is a fair reward for length of eervice. In all other cases the payment is fairly proportioned to the labour. The only change that I should wish to make, would be in the salaries of the mathematical masters. But that cannot be done at present. I need hardly say that the above proposed tax on the boarding-houses, and limitation of the pupils, can only commence with new a])pointments. The rent which a master is willing to pay to the landlord of a boarding-house, must to some extent be affected by the imjjosition of a tax on the number of boarders. The tax, therefore, can only be imposed on the occasion of a new lease. Meanwhile, the announcement that it will be levied hereafter, will have the effect of the tax itself In arresting any further expansion of the present houses. So again the limitalion of the pupils will, in my judgment, ulti- mately conduce to the better working of the school. But those who are accustomed to (90.) P I' tho 298 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Apiwndli C. tlie present system may, notwithstanding, find it best to go on as they are, and have the undivided tuition of their own houses. Some of the masters mean to try tlie proposed change at once. But, as a general rule, it can only be introduced by degrees. V. — School Charges. (Recommeiidations 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 23, 23, 24, 2.5, 20, 27, 29, 35, 38, 89. Pages SOU, 309.) The Commissioners propose to add six guineas to the present school fees, and to raise the tuition fee in the upper scliool from 10 guineas to 12. They propose that this addition of six guineas shall tupply the funds for the proposed additional studies, and for the payment of the stipends of the foundation masters. But we cannot safely reckon in thia way. The school cannot be prevented from fluctuating, and a fall of 40 or .50 boys would throw all these arrangements into disorder. I have already said that, in my judgmeni, seven guineas ought lo be added to the school fee, and not only six. Two will be wanted for the natural science, two for the music and drawing, and three for the stipends hitherto paid by the school revenues. The two assigned to natural science will be needed for that subject. The new ma.ster to be appointed ought to receive a guinea a boy up to a lived maximum. He will have also all the private pupils in his own subject, and a boaruing-hc-use in his regular turu. The remainder of the money will pay the masters who assist him. The three guineas assigned to the stipends will, while the school keeps up its numbers,more than satisfy all demands of the sort. The remainder will be transferred to our reserved fund, and will go towards paying one or perhaps two more classical masters. And I assure the trustees (hat, if we are to undertake new studies, the one hope of not losing our position as a classical school is to make the classical teaching as good as it can be made ; and there is absolutely no other means of doing this, but to increase the staff. The two guineas assigned to the music and drawing need not, I think, be paid by the trustees on behalf of the foundationers. While the school maintains its numbers, the amount will be much more than enough for these two subjects. On the other hand, a good portion of the gain made by the school revenues, from ceasing to pay the stipends of the foundation masters, will be absoi-bed by having to pay an addition of five guineas for each foundationer. Two guineas more would exhaust too much of it. It will be better to leave the instruction of the foundationers in drawing on its present footing, and to consider the stipend of 20 /. as covering the charge on that account. In the same way the salary cf the organist ought to be considered as releasing the trustees from all obliga- tion to pay for the instruction of the foundationers in music. The school fee, therefore, to be paid for each foundationer would be 20^ guineas The fee to be paid by non-foundationers will be '22h guineas, I think it will be wise to add to this the wi'iting master's fee which at present is made a separate charge. This fee is 30 s. a boy, with an entrance fee of 7 *. The present writing master would of course continue to receive just what he does now, but through a difi^'erent channel. At the same time I ought to observe, that the amount is much more than will procure a fit writinii master, and is really wanted to pay lor the mathematics. The sum of 10 «. 6 d. a boy, up to a maximum of 240 /., will be an ample salary lor the next writing master, and the rest may be used to put the salaries of the mathematical masters on a better footing. If this be added to the school instruction fee, and the 7 s. cntranc3 fee be abolished, the total amount may be put at 24 guineas. The present fee for board is 50 guineas. But there arc several small charges not included in this, but put dov. n as extras, which yet arc really necessary. These are (foot note, page 29.3), 16 s. for study candles, 2 /. Ifi s. for study fires, 2 /. 2 .v. 3 ject of course to the approval of Parliament) that no boys would be admitted on the present foundation whose parents were not resident in Rugby before 1st July 1864, and that none would be admitted at all after 1st July 1869. The present foundation would then die out of itself. The gain to the school revenues would not be great, if we compare the money thus spent on the lower school with what is now paid for the foundationers. But it is consi- derable if we compare it with what would be paid for the foundationers on the new scale. Money gained on present scale : Seventy-two at 15^ guineas Lower School : Building, 3,000/. at 3 J School income - - - Exhibitions - - - Gain £. s. d. . 1,171 16 - £. s. d. 105 - - 600 - - 280 - - 985 - - . . . £. 186 16 - Money gained on new scale : Seventy-two at 20^ guineas Lower school Gain 1,549 16 - 985 - - 564 16 - VI. — Limitation of the Numbers. (Recommendation 28. Pnge 300.) Tlio Commissioners |)roposc to limit the munber to 500. ' I do not think a numerical limit.atifin wise. But 1 liavc already jiroposcd a rule which will have the ellect of check- ing the increase of the numbers in each boarding-iiouse. If it be further ordered tiiat no boarding-house be opened in future without permission from the trustees, the total num- ber of boys will be sufficiently controlled. SELECT COMMITTEE ON Til H I'UBLIC SCHOOLS KILL. [h. L.j 301 • VIl. Scholarships and Exhibitions tenable at the School. (Recommendations 42, 43, 44, 45, 4(!, 47, 48, 4<), r,0, r,l, .02, 6.'), 54, 0.0, .00, .07, 58. Pages 301, 302. ) The Commissioners propose that the trustees should immediately create 12 scholarships of 60/. a year each, and 24 exhibitions of 2.> /. a year eacli ; the former U> be given for proficiency in the classics, the latter for proficiency in mathematics, modern languages, and natural science. They j)roposc that these scholarships and exhibitions should be open to boys under 15, and tenable for four years. How entirely the whole staff of masters here con(;ur in the expediency of creating open sholarships is jiroved by the fact that last year, with the concurrence of the trustees, we anticipated this very recommendation, and founded 10. 1 agree too with the ojjinion of the Commissioners that scholars]ii])s ought to be founded out of the revenues of the s(rhool estates, and ought not to depend on voluntary subscrij)tions, liowever permanent. If they gain nothing in security, they gain greatly in dignity. But 1 cannot concur in recommending the immediate creation of exhibitions for the subsidiary subjects. An exhibition given for proficiency in French or German woidd repeatedly be won, not by a boy who had a natural talent for learning living languages, and had cultivated this talent, but by one who had happened to have been educated abroad. A similar accidental reason would often determine the election to an exhibition given for proficiency in natural science. The means of giving instruction in natural science are scattered here and there about England, and it is a mere accident if any boy has the o])portunity of learning any- thing of the subject. If we had a great deal of money to spare, it might be wise to spend Bome of it in creating what does not at present exist, a widely difiused system of instruc- tion in natural science ; but while there are so many pressing demands on us, I think it imperative to postpone the foundation of such exhibitions as these. A little more might be said in favour of exhibitions for mathematics. The high importance of the subject, and its wide diftiision (for no school does not teach at least the rudiments), rank it next to classics. And wlien the classical scholarshijjs have been provided for, 1 quite agree that mathematical exiiibiiions ought to follow. But I am sure that 20, and I am inclined to .say 40, classical scholarshi])s ought to be provided before we begin to think of mathematical. I am nmch in earnest in this matter, for I look on it as vital. We cannot be accused of any desire to extinguish the subsidiary subjects. So far from classics encroaching on the other subjects, the history of the school for the last 30 years has shown a tendency the other way. And we shall imperil the scliool as a place of classical instruction if we do not jealously guard every step that we take in that direction. The new subjects that the Conunissioners press upon us are a strong argument for laying more stress than ever on the classics. The introduction of these new subjects must be an experiment But I do not fear to try it if only at the same time we do our best to make the classical teaching good. Without that I fear that we may fail in the worst possible way, namely, by sacrificing good classical scholarship to superficial natural science. And for maintaining classical scholarship one of our chief needs is good material ; and I am sure that even 20 scholarships will not give us more than we require. I propose, then, that the foimdation of the exhibitions be postponed, and that 20 Bcholarships be founded, 10 of 60/., and 10 of 40/., tenable for five years, and open to boys under 14. This age is better than 15, as a boy does not become sufliciently welded into our system if he does not come to us till nearly 15. I think it would be best that the eight scholars alreadj' elected should be taken off the hands of the masters by the trustees, and reckoned among the 20. As it is proposed that the masters' stipends sliould at once cease to be payable by the trustees, the money for this purpose will be in their hands; but the masters do not desire to give up what they had undertaken, and they are prepared, if the trustees will take these scholars, to submit at once to a tax of 3 /. on every boy above 40 in the boarding houses, while the head master will give up all claim on the salary he now receives of 113/. 6.s. 8d. This 1 consider to be as much of the burden as fairly falls upon them under the new arrangements ; for the endowment of these scholarships was so arranged as to fall on the head master, the boarding-house masters, the tutors, and the reserved fund. Now, the part to be paid by the reserved fund wouhl in the plan proposed remain there to be spent for the good of the school. The part to be paid by the tutors will be absorbed if more classical masters are appointed, since they will share the pujiils. The part to be paid by the head master and boarding-house masters was 273/. lO.v. 6d. A tax of 3/. on e^ery boy above 40 in the boarding houses would give ((calculating by the numbers last Christmas) an average of 158/. 5s. If we had 113/. 6s. 8 d. we get 271/. lis. 8ain8 they have in one instance recommended what is physically impossible (liecom. 9, p. 54). In spirit I have generally advised compliance with their views, and am ready to take my part in working them out ; I have only differed where the reasons for doing so seemed to me imperative. In details I think myself the best judge. I presiuno that, in all probability, the Examining Commission will be followed by an Executive Commission next year. There are some proposals which cannot be adopted without the authority either of such a Commission, or of an Act of Parliament ; as, for instance, the alteration in the privileges of the foundationers. But that is not the case with all ; and I should certainly advise immediate action in all cases where it is possible. The A])pendix containing the statistics and accounts will be ready for the meeting on the 29tii ; but I send this Report beforehand, that there may be full time for consi- dering it. I have, &c. Rugby, 4 June 1864. F. Temple. SELECT coM^rITT^:I• on tiit; runLic schools bill. [ii. l.] Appendix D. PAPER haiiacd la by the liov. 11. M. Butler. STATEMENT as to School Buildings erected at IIaukow. 1819. Speech Room, and extensive additions to the Old School, Site.— Governors' land. Cost — About 8,000/. Subscription from masters, scholars, and old Harrovians. 1839. First Chapel: Site. — Given gratuitously by the late Dr. Butler. Cost — About 4,0UU/. General subscription. 1841. Head Master'' s House : Site.— Governors' land. Cost— £. 2,000, besides the money (some 3,000 /., I believe) granted by the Fire Insurance Company. The house which was burnt down was built mainly by the late Dr. Butler, who spent some 12,000/. upon it, including that part whicji was occupied by his boarders. 1845. Head Master^s New Boarding House, replacing that which was burnt down : Site. — Governors' land. Cost. — One part purchased by the Governors from Dr. Colenso, about 1,250 /. The other part by general subscrij)tion, about 3,000/. For this Boarding House the Head Master pays an annual rent of 60 /. 1848. Two New Racquet Coicrts: Site. — Governor's land. Cost — about 1,400/. General subscription. 1855. "New Schools," to north of Chapel. Site. — Land purchased from Executors of the late Dr. Butler. Cost — About 3,000 /. Mainly defrayed by the assistant masters, in part by paiyments of parents of the boys. 1854-1857. Second Chapel: Site. —Partly as before ; the remainder presented by the Widow of the late Dr. Butler. Cost — About 12,000/. General suljscription, including Dr. Vaughan's gift of the chancel, value 2,000/., and payments from j^arents of the boys. 1861. T7ie Vaughan Library and Tliree School Rooms: Site — Partly Governors' land, partly on land boTight for them and exchanged for their land elsewhere. Cost — About 10,000 /., including site. General subscription. 1864. The Racquet Court and Fives Co2i7-ts : Site — Governors' land. Cost — about 2,200 /. General subscription. 1864. Sanatorium : Site — Land purchased from a lady in Harrow. Cost — About 4,500 /., including site. Subscriptions from masters and jjarents of the boys, about 1,700/.; the remainder by voluntary payments each term from parents. Appendix D. Harrow, 20 May 1865. H. Montagu Butler, Head Master. (90.) Qq 306 APPrt;NDix to report from the Appendix E, Appendix E. Answers of W. Sharpcy, m. d., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee. Question 1. — " In what branches of physical science should instruction be given in our public schools, and what branches, if any, should be excluded ?" Answer. — It appears to me that instruction in physical science in our public schools should be confined to those blanches in which the knowledge imparted can, so far as it extends, be rendered exact and solid. The elements of natural philosophy and of inor- ganic chemistry are well adapted to this end, provided the instruction be carried on mainly by practical lessons at which the jnipils take part themselves in the experiments, and are permitted to handle and Avork with apparatus. I think that instruction may also be given to boys with much advantage in some of the Natural Histoiy sciences, whereby they may learn to observe the points of resemblance and difierence in natural objects, and become acquainted with systematic classification. For this purpose, I think botany is, on the whole, best adapted, because illustrative speci- mens can everywhere be easily obtained, and there is constant ojjportunity oiFered to the pupil for jinrsuing the subject farther after his school-life is over. I do not think it would be advisable to include branches of science in which the instruction which can be given in a school must consist chiefly in imparting scientific information only, in making the pupil learn deductions and applications without under- standing the processes by which they have been arrived at. Of course, I do not deny or underrate the value of that species of knowledge as knowledge ; but as matter of school- teaching it apjiears to me not so well adapted to higher schools as to those of a humbler kind, the pupils of which would in after life probably remain ignorant of much useful knowledge were it not given at school. For this reason, while I agree that the leading truths of physiology, having reference especially to the maintenance of health, may advantageously be taught in certain schools, I should not recommend physiology as a disciplinal scientific subject for the higher schools, seeing that without a knowledge of anatomy, which the boys could not acquire, the instruction could not be made thorough ; not to mention other difiiculties. Of course I should be the last to discourage the real study of physiology as a subject of liberal education, in universities and colleges or in any other way, by youths who have gone through our public schools. Question 2. — " In what manner should that instruction be imparted ; should there be periodical examinations of the jiupils, and prizes for jiroficiency ; and by whom should such examinations be conducted and such prizes awarded ?" Answer. — I have already expressed myself as to the mode of instruction. I may add that wherever the case admits of it, the pupils should be made to work exercises involving the application of arithmetic and elementary mathematics to an extent commensurate with their attainment in these branches. There ought unquestionably to be periodical examina- tions of the pupils, with prizes and certificates of merit for j^roficiency, provided such prizes and certificates are given in other dei^artmcnts of the school. The examinations may be conducted, and the prizes awarded by the teachers. Question 3. — " Should instruction in science be made imperative by positive enactment, and, if not, in what mode should it be pi'omoted and encouraged by the Legislature ?" Answer. — I think it should be imperative on the public, schools to affoi'd instruction in science. As to its being made imjierative on pu])iis to learn it, I cannot so readily answer; but, believing that Latin and (ireek will for a long time to come be treated as privileged subjects, I would suggest that the classes on science should not be placed in a worse position than others without the jiale. W. Sharpey, M.D. SKLLCT COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS RILL. [h. L.] 307 Al'PKNDIX F. ANSWERS of William Allen Miller, M. D., to certain Questions put to Iiini by the Appendix F. Committee. At the request of the C'ommittee (comnumicatcd by Lord Wrottcsley), Dr. Miller begs leave to lay before the Committee Answers to the Questions submitted : Question 1. — " lu wliat branches of jihysical science should Instruction be given in our public schools, and what l)ranchcs, if any, should bo excluded?" Answer. — 1st. I consider that instruction sliould be given in Mechanics, including the principle of the composition and resolution of forces — centre of gravity, the mechanical powers, the laws of motion. 2d. Hydrostatics and Pneumatics, including the princijile of fluid j)ressure, specific gravity, construction of ilie barometer, the air pump, common pump, aud forcing pump ; the siphon. 3d. Optics, including the general nature of light ; laws of reflection and refraction ; the formation of images by lenses. 4th. Heat : the thermometer ; latent and specific heat ; phenomena of freezing ; ebullition, evaporation. 5th. Electricity: conductors; insulators; electrical machine; Leyden jar; lightning, protection by conductors. 6th. Chemistry of the non-metallic elements; the atmosphei'e ; combustion; respiration; water ; general nature of acids ; bases and salts. 7th. To these should be added, though it cannot be called physical science, a certain amount of Pkysiolor/y, giving a general view of the functions of the heart, the brain, the lungs, and the stomach in animals, contrasted and compared with the functions of the root, stem, and leaves of plants. Question 2. — " In what manner should that instruction be imparted ; should there be periodical examinations of the pupils, and prizes for proficiency ; and by whom should such examinations be conducted, and such prizes awarded ?" Answer. — The object to be kept in view is not to make accomplished students in physical science, or even to induce the pujjils to follow it, but to ensure a knowledge, exact as far «s it e/oes, of the elementary principles of souie of the most important branches of science. The instruction will be best imparted by lectures, with experimental illustrations and diagrams, with frequent oral and written examinations during the course. There should also be periodical examinations of the pupils, and prizes for proficiency ; such periodical examinations to be conducted, and prizes to be awarded, by examiners who have not been engaged in instructing the pujjils examined. Question 3. — " Should instruction in science be made imperative by positive enactment, and, if not, in what mode should it be promoted and encouraged by the Legislature ? " Answer. — Upon this point I speak with less confidence ; but I think it might be quired that in each school a competent teacher of science should constitute one of the stafi^ of masters, who should give instruction to the pujjils who have risen above a certain position in the school. Wm. Allen Miller, M. D., Treasurer, Royal Society, King's College, London, Professor of Chemistry. 26 May 1865. (90.) QQ2 308 APPENDIX TO RErOUT FROM THE Appendix G. Appendix G. ANSWERS of Tltumas Henrij Ilu.vle)/, F.R.S., to certain Questions put to him by the . Committee. Question 1. — "In what branches of physical science should instruction be given in our public schools, and what branches, if any, should be excluded ? "' Answer. — The grounds upon which, in my opinion, the claim of any study to be regarded as an essential element of a complete course of education must be based, are the following : — It must be shown to furnish — 1. Indispensaljle means for the acquirement of knowledge. 2. Mental discipline of a kind not to be attained otherwise. 3. Information of paramount practical or speculative importance. For example, the teaching of reading and writing is justified by considerations which come under the first head ; that of the classics, by reasons belonging to the second group ; and that of history, geography, morality, and theology, by arguments of the third class. The need for scientific education is demonstrable by cogent argiunents belonging to all three classes. In the first place, the use of accurate observation and of experiment, as means of acquiring knowledge, can be effectually taught in no other way ; and, secondly, in no other way than by scientific training can the mind of a boy be disciplined in inductive reasoning, and in the essential habit of seeking knowledge at firsthand, without the inter- vention of authoritv. Thirdly, the information supplied by science is of paramount practical importance, inasmuch as modern civilisation and its products are unintelligible without that information ; and of paramount speculative importance, because the infusion of scientific method and the importation of scientific ideas is all that distinguishes the j^hilosojihy and the theology cf the present day from that of a thousand years ago. But the range of science is so vast, and many of its departments arc still so incomplete, that the attempt to lead an unformed mind through the wliole could only tend to produce superficiality and confusedncss, and to defeat the chief object of education, which is dis- cijjline rather than knowledge. It is therefore of great moment that instruction should be given primarily in those parts of science only which have attained precision and definiteness ; that it should not pretend to go further than to prepare the mind for progress in any desired direction ; but that, so far as it goes, it should be thorough, practical, and exact. There are three principal groups of the sciences, the physical, the chemical, and the biological ; and no doubt it would be eminently desirable, were it practicable, that discipline and instruction in the methods and jn'imary truths of each of these groups should form a part of education. Physics lies at the foundation of all science ; and if nothing else were taught, it would be a great gain to have the youth of this country soundly instructed in the laws of the elementary forces — gravitation, heat, light, and so forth. The purely physical sciences furthermore have the great practical advantage that they can be ])ursned to a great extent without what have been felicitously termed " stinks or messes," while the state of knowlcdse rcaardine; them is such that these elements can be tanglit as thoroughly as those of grammar or those of mathematics. The practical diflficulties in tiie way of leaching boys chemistry thoroughly and as a discipline, aj)pcar to me (though I speak with hesitation and without experience or authority in such matters) to be nnich greater; and I venture to ])cm\'.x G. biology. lie would be put on the same level witii re.sjtect to biologieal science as a boy who had been well grounded in Latin grammar, Caesar, and Virgil, would occupy with respect to the chisaics. On the whole, therefore, I am strongly in I'aNoui- of confining instruction in science for disciplinal purposes to elementary physics (witli incidental chcinisf i-y ) and liotany, with the addition of the outlines of human physiology. A lioy well grounded in the ludinienls <.f these sciences would find none of liic nietliods and very few of the concejilions of tlie others absolutely strange. If it should be found practicable, in addition, to teach the outlines of geology as infor- mation, so much the better ; but, I am sure that the great ;iini sliould be to teach only so much science as can be tauglit thorougldy ; and to ground in principles and methods ratiier than attempt to cover a large surface of details. Question 2. — " In what manner should that instruction be imparted ; should there be periodical examinations of the pupils, and prizes for ])roficiency ; and by whom should such examin.ations be conducted, and such piizes awarded ?" Answer. — I believe that the most perfect method of teaching science is that pursued by chemists and anatomists, who combine lectures with practical demonstrations, and thus unite all that is excellent in both the professorial and the tutorial systems. But it should be understood that scientific teaching will l)e a mere sham and delusion, and had better not be attempted at all, unless a fair share f)f time and attention be given to it; and unless the rewards attainable by proficiency are iully equal to tliosc within the reach of the boys who devote themselves more especially to other lines of work. If no scholarships at the universities are open to boys, and if no fellowships at the colleges are attainable by men, who show a special aptitiule for science, the introduction of scientific teaching into public schools will be a mere farce. Practically, the ability ^A' the country will be, as at present, heavily bribed away into other jnirsnits. It would doubtless be very important to have regular examinations ; and, so far as such a proceeding miglit be consistent with the due maintenance and discipline of a public school, it would obviously be desii'able that the examinations should be conducted from without. It might be convenient to construct a board of examiners by selection from the examining bodies of the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London. Question 3. — '" Should instruction in science be made imperative by positive enactment' and, if not, in what mode should it be promoted and encouraged by the Legislature ?" Answer. — As a matter of abstract principle, I am opposed to any sort of interference with education on the pai't of the State ; but in the actual condition of the nation, when heavily endowed bodies exist whose whole energies are devoted to the ignoring of science and the counteraction (so far as in them lies) of her teachings, the case is altered ; and I am disposed to think that active interference on behalf of science by the State is not only justifiable, but necessary for the welfare of the community. In any case, it is the duty of the State to see that endowments the value of which is determined by the present social and political condition of the country, and not by that which existed at the time they were founded, shall not become sources of ignorance and impediments to that progress which they were founded to promote ; and therefore I cannot doubt the wisdom and the justice of enforcing the teaching of science upon the public schools by positive enactment. Thomas Henry Huxley, f.r.s. (90.) Q Q 3 310 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix H. Appendix H. ANSWERS of John Tyndall, f.r. s., to certain Questions put to him by the Committee. Questions. 1. " In what branches of physical science should instruction be given in our public schools, and what branches, if any, should be excluded ? 2. " In what manner should that instruction be imparted ; should there be periodical examinations of the students, and prizes for proficiency ; and by whom should examinations be conducted, and prizes awarded ? 3. " Shoiild instruction in science be made imperative by positive enaclment, and, if not, in what mode should it be promoted and encouraged by the Legislature ? " Answers. In our public schools instruction should, in my opinion, be given in elementary physics, comprising under this term the phenomena and laws of" gravity, light, heat, sound, electricity, magnetism, and the mechanical properties of air and water. The first principles of chemistry ought also to be taught in our public schools. Instruction in these subjects should, in my opinion, be rendered imperative. Elementary physics sliould be taught by means of experimental demonstrations. The facts of all its branches ought to be brought before the jnipils, not merely as facts to be stored up in the memory but to be reasoned upon and connected together mentally. Their succession and interdependence ought to be explained ; the pupil ought to bo led to anticipate them by reasoning, and afterwards to verify his anticipations by experiment. In all possible cases the close questioning of the pupils ouglit to go hand-iu-hand with the performance of the experiments. Such qviestioning compels attention, keeps the mind alert, and enables the teacher to exti-act its full value and significance from every fact. This method I think preferable to that of formal lectures. The instruction thus recommended would be valuable, not only as conveying information of great importance, or as enabling its recipients to interpret natural plieuomena, but also and mainly as a means of intellectual discipline, of exercising and strengthening all the faculties of the mind. I speak from practical experience, when I say that the subjects above mentioned may be rendered intensely interesting to boys, and that the love for such studies which a competent teacher could evoke would be a powerful aid to intellectual discipline. The form of ap]5aratus necessary for such elementary instruction is as yet but imper- fectly organized, but once earnestly demanded, suitable apparatus would soon be forth- coming. Much may be accomplished by extremely simple means; how much is only known to those who are accustomed to devise new methods of experimental demonstration. I do not tiiink that the cost of apparatus, or the room requisite for its preservation, could be regarded as an objection of the least weight to the introduction of science into our public schools. Periodical examinations ought, I tliink, to be conducted by men of recognised eminence in science, l)ut not otherwise connected with the scliools. Prizes for proficiency ought undoubtedly to Ik; awarded. Conversation with thougiiti'ul and eminent men leads me to conclude that the study of botany possesses facilities and advantages which render its introduction into our public schools highly desirable. In addition to elementary pliysics and chemistry, I should, therefore, rccomnumd the introduction of botany, and to these three sciences I would for the [)resent confine attention. As matters of knowledge aiul acquirement, other sciences are of course in the higiiest ilegree important, but, as agents of (liscii)linc, 1 have no hesi- tation in recommending (bo three sciences above mentioned. To multiply subjects would defeat the object we have in view, which is to eini)loy science as a means of sound intellec- tual culture for boys, and to make its claims harmonize witb those which in the present constitution of society must necessarily be conceded to the dead languages. I should SELECT COMMITTKE ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS KILL. H. L.] 311 I should iiulividually deprecate any sudden or revolutionary c'liaiige in the mode of Appendix H. education m our public schools. If science instruction jiossess the value wliich those who recommend it undoubtedly Ijclieve it to possess, it will surely, though it may be gradually, win Its way to general recognition. I would not for the present recommend the buildin"- of laboratories with a view to the practice of chemistry on the ])art of the pupils ; but it is essential that the chemical teacher should have a small la])oratory for himself, to enable lum to prepare his demonstrations. With regard to the time to be devoted to science, six or seven hours a week would be of immense imj.ortance; even less than this would at the end of three or four years sum itself uj) to something extremely valuable. It would at all events give our educated classes some knowledge of the system of nature, and enable them to comprehend, if not to direct, the scientific energy which now so powerfully in- fluences the world, and which is destined to influence it more and more. John Tyndall, f.R.S. (90.) Q Q 4 I N 13 E X TO REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL [ILL.] Session 1865. Ordered to be printed 5th ^lay 1865. (90-1nd.) 3 '3 1 INDEX. [N.B. -In this Index the Figures following the Names of the Witnesses refer to the QucMlons in the Evidence ; and those following- App., to the Pages of the Appendix.] A. AGES of Boys {Rughy and Ilairow). Very early age at wiiich formerly many of the foundationers and non-foundationers used to go to Ruoby School; different practice now in force, Bloxam i. 10-15 In witness's experience both tiie foundationers and the non- foundationers used to come to the school from out of the nursery, ih. -i. 9-15- Inexpediency of boys entering the great school at Harrow at :in earlier age ihan twelve or thirlcen, i5i<ols in the parish, charity, manaaement expenses, Stc, 11 34-1 139 Earnest desire of witness that ihe quesiion of the foundation should be so settled as to confer a real and permanent boon upon ihe tradesmen and farmers of Harrow, 1 139. Practical obstacles to the sons of tradesmen and farmers receiving in Harrow School the particular training which they require, II39-1141 Removal generally of trades- men's sons from education at aboiii the age when other boys come to Harrow, II39. 1141 Entrance examination recently established under which all boys coming after the |iiesent year lo the upper school must show some knowledge of Latin and Greek, 1140, 1141. 1144-1149 Social difiicuity in regard to the sons of tradesmen and farmers in tlie lower school mixing with the other boys, 1141, 1142 Complete separation between the English fnrin or lower school and the upjitr school, except that the lormer is ecjiially under the head master, 1141-1143. Very ignorani stale generally of the boys who enter the English form, 1 143 State- ment in explanation and justification of the rule that boys entering the great school must in future show some knuvvledge of Greek, 1 144-1149. 1 i()0-i 170 im|iediiiienl to boys Cduung from the lower to the upper school, the education in the former not qualifying the ni in Greek : how this difhculty may be removed in exceptional cases, I 150-1 154. 1 1(17-1 170 Improbability of many hoys remaining in tine lower school up to the age of fifteen, 1 155, 1 156. J isadvantages under which the English form lias been carried on, notwithstanding which BUTLER. 3:5 lleport, iSfJ.ij — continued. Butler, The Rev. Henry MouCar/ue. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. which it li!is by no means lieen a failure, 1157 '^'^^^ master of the lower school is appointed l)y witness, ami has [iractically ihe entire charije, 115H, 1 1 ,09 Appre- hension that the lower form of the upper school must be degraded too mucli if boys fioin the Eniilish form were to pass directly to it, 1 160 Iinpurtance attached to piepara- tory schools throughout the country as the best means of qualilyinij; boys for the public schools, 1 160, 1161 Cncimistance of the tradesmen and farmers not valuing the education uiven in the upper school, i i(j2. Inexpediency of boys enter ng the yreat school at an earlier ag;e than twelve or thir- teen, 1163-1166 Circumstance of the average a^e of the boys being: much higher at Harrow than at othtr public schools; advantage thereby, 1165, 11G6 Objection to meeiing the views of the trailing and farming class at Harrow, by giving a more elemen- tary training in tlie great school, and oiuiitiiig Latin and Greek in some of the forms, 1170, 1171 Belief that farmers and tradesmen do not value the jjresent education in the great school, 1172 Circumstance of there not having been a tradesman's sin at the public school for the last twenty years, 1 172-1175. Respects in which the school proposed by Dr. Temple, for Kugby, (lifters from the lower school at Harrow, 1176, 1177 I'ropusal that the English form at Harrow be regarded as the first charge upon the income of the governors, 1177 Any surplus available after meeting tlie charge for the English form should be divided in scholarships, to be competed for by the inhabitants of Harrow, of two years' resich'nce, 1 177, 1 178 There is now no limit as to the term of residence qualifying for Idundaiioaeis, 1 179, 1180 There are now thirty-seven foundationeis, which is the highest number ever reached, ii8i Dithculty 111 stating the proportion of sojourners to permanent resi- dents, 1182-1185. Absence of anyiliing in common between the boys in the English form and in the public schiiol, 11S6, 1187 Insuperable obstacle to an admixture of the two classes of boys, so long as the woik of each is so distinct, 1 187, 1 188 Prospect of tlie public schools comprising in course of time a modern or non-classical course of education, as well as a highly classical course; approval thereof, although as regards Harrow, witness sees strong objection at present to the bifurcation principle, 1189-1194 Large number of boys for whom a classical education is not the best adapted, 1 190-1 193 Instruction in mathematics has been given at Harrow for many years, 1194. 1195 — —~ Prospect of physical science being introduced at Harrow, witness having devised a plan for the purpose, 1194-1196. Absolute character since 185-2 of the rule as to attendance at bills, 1197 Approval on the whole of the rule prohibiting boys from riding or driving to the school, though, in exceptional instances, it may operate harshly, 1 197—1212 Probability of the rule as to bills having Hrst been framed with a view to limiting the number of f'ouiidaiioner-i, 1200 Question considered as to uranting certain facilities in the case of bovs livino; at an incon\enient distance as regards attendance at the bill after dinner hour, 1213— 1223. Advantage of limiting the number of foundationers as much as possible to those who are near residents, 1222, 1223 Great importance attached 10 the class of home boarders-, 1224. 1231-1233 Suggestion that the number of horns boarders, including founda- tioners, be limited to sixty, it being desirable also to place a limit upon the number in masters' houses, 1224-1237 Even if the foundation were abolished the home-boarder class would continue, 1234 The masters are unanimous in their desire to have the home-boarder element, 1 235. Absence of any moral claim on the part of sojourners to the benefits of John Lyon's foundation, 1238. 1242-1244 Expediency of facilities forclassical education at a low rate, so that the total abolition of the foundation is not desirable, 1-238 -Approval of an extended or open competition for the proposed scholarships if the governors had a lari.'e fund to dispose of; advantage in limiting the coiiipetit.on to residents, the available surplus being so small, 12311-1242 Want of a system of exhibitions at Harrow, in order to enaide it to compete with the other public schools in obtaining able boys ; value of these to the school generally, 1245-1247. Dissent from certain objections to a system of competition for exhibitions, 1248, 1249. 1251, 1252 Regulation at Harrow requiring boys to leave who, at certain ages, have not attained to paiticular forms, 1250 Probable surplus of about 300/. a year for foundation scholarships alter meeting the charge of the English form, 1252-1254 Better provision for the trading and farming classes by the plan proposed by witness than by the present foundation, 1255 Great local benefit caused by the school and by the expenditure made through the foreigners, 1256. Decided objection to the proposal in the Bill for increasing the number of governors from six to twelve, 1257, 1258 Difhculty in always securing; a quorum with the pre- sent number of governors; approval on this ground of two or three additional governors, 1257, 1258. 1260, 1261 Approval of a casting vote in the Archbishop of Canterbury 481. R R 2 if 3i6 BUT CAR Report, 1865 — continued. Butler, The Rev. Henry Montague. (Analysis cf his Evidence.) — continued. if an even number of governors be retained; advantage on this score of an odd number, 1258. Objection to tlie proposed addition of three scientific governors as likely to lead to undtsiral)!e interference with the head niusier, 1-2,59. i'^68, 1269 Satisfactory relations now existing between the luad master and the governois, 1261 Advantage of the pre- sent general check over the head master, rather than of the governor* taking the initiative in any matter, 12O1. 1^64-1269 Approval of the governors exercising a control over the large sums received through the head master from the ioreigners, such sums being now uiicontiolietl, 1262-1264. 1267. Exijlanatoiy statement relative to the sources whence the cost of certain buildings, and of the land upon which erected, have been defrayed, shovviig that the foundationers have little nr no claim in this respect, 127-2-1282 Willingness of witness to provide a certain numlier of scholarships in respect of holding his house rent free, 1272. 1278 Inac>- curacv of the dati assumed m the valuation laid before the Committee by Mr. Humbert, 1273-IC75 Erection of witness's boarding house at the expense of the old Harro- vians, the rem being fixed at 60 /. a year; readiness already expressed by witness to pay an increased rent, 1278. 1281, 1282. Fuither statement as to the temporary residents or sojourners having no equitable claim to the benefits of the foundation, 1283, 1284 Absence of educational benefit to the tradesmen or farmers under the operation of the foundation hitherto, 1283 Cir- cumstiaice of the son ofaH.irrow tradesman iiaving been sent to the City of London School, where he n.ade excellent -progress, and is now about; to go to the university; doubt whether he would have got on equally well at Harrow School, 1288, 1289. Caldecutt, Charles Marriott. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Eesides near Rugby ; is a magis- trate of the county, and is well conversant with the local leeling on the subject of Rugby School and the changes proposed, 124-126. 137 Was educated at Rugby, on the foundiition ; had six uncles and five brothers also educated as foundationers, 127-131 ^\'ellt from Rugby to Hailcybury, and thence to India, 132-134. Entire absence of any jealousy between foundationers and non-foundationers either fifty years ago or at the present time, 137-140 Total of seventy foundationers out of 498 Iiovs at Christmas, 1864; this is abuut the average proportion, 141. 157. 168-172 01 the seventy foundaiioners sixteen are if the tradesmen class, 141 Calculation that foity-two foundationers are the sons of people to whom the foundation is a real charity, and who could not afford to pay for education under the scheme of Dr. Temple, 141. 148-150 The parent^ of many ol the foundationers are permanent residents; doubt as to the number of mere sojourneis, 142-144. 154-160. 163, 164. Information relative to tiie value or rental of the houses occupied by the parents of the foundationers, 14,5-147 Proposition of Dr. Temple in regard to 40/. being charged to a foundationer or day scholar, 148 Piaciice as to foundationers paying ten guineas a year for a private master, unless they claim to be exempted, 151-153 Increasing number of permanent residents who settle at Rugby for the sake of educating their children, 160. With regard to the interest of builders in opposing the Bill, there is a wholesale oppo- sition on the part of all classes, 161, 162 Considerable period for which witness's family have been settled at Rugby, his great grandfather and grandfather having been educated at the school, 165-167 Decided objection to the proposal of Dr. Temple for a separate or lower school, 173-185 Adverse f( cling of the tradespeople towards the scheme for a separate school, 177-182 Advantage attached by the tradespeople to the association in the present school, 180, 181. Obstacle oflered by Dr. Arnold to children under fourteen years of age coming to the school, 183, 184 Veiy small number of boys now in the lower school as compared with the number in former years, i6. Grounds for concluding that the object of the founder ol the school was not the instruction of the poor children of Rugby, 185. 187 Numerous fainilics of note in Waiwickshiie and the neighbouring counties who, since the e>tablishnient of the school, have sint their cliiklien to it, 185, 186. Different classes of persons who have come to Rugby to reside, and who send their children to the school; they are mostly people of resiicctable families, but of limited means, 188-191 Numerous instances of persons continuing to reside after the com- pletion of their children's education, 191 Advantage of the system of residents or sqiourners as gi\ing a good tone to society in Rugby, and as acting beneficially upon the school, 192. (Jureswell Exhibitions (Shrewshimj School). Considerable value attached to the Careswell exhibitions, connecting the school with Christ Church, Oxfoiii, Kennedy 1352, Certificate CER COX 317 Report, 1 865 — continued. Certificate of Character {Admission to Rugby). Ri (|nir(;mc'iil of a cerlificate as to character before any boy is, atlmitled, Temple 891. 890-898. Chapel Services. Objection to the proposal in the I5ill in regard to the governing- bodies of Rugby Scliool interfering with reference to the ch.ipel services, Temple 1107, 1108. Chapman, John. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Tradesman ;it Hariow; is strongly opposed to Dr. Unller's scheinc, 82,5-8'29 P^xplanation as ti> witness not huving availed himself of the advantage of Joim Lyon's (ouuilation for his son; backwardness in this respect on the part of the Harrow tradesmen, 829-83,5 Opinion that there has been discouragtment in regard to sons of tradespeople enternig the school, 831. Chapman, Richard. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Farmer and builder at Harrow ; takes a considerable interest in Harrow School, 704-773 Kes|)ects in which the pioximity of the school is injurious to the adjacent land, 772-7S2 Injury done to witness's hediies by the boys; he is, however, on excellent lornis with tin m and wiih the school, 772> 773- ~<'--784 Refieience to the circumstances under which the English form was established by Dr. Vaughan, 783. 785-789 Objection of the farmers and trades- people to send tlieir children to the school, tliroiit-h fear of ilieir being ill-tieated by the other boys, 789. 796-799 Desire of the tradesmen and farmers to avail tlnmselves of the benefits of the foundation, and to give a classical education to their children, 789-799- Charterhouse School, Remarks by counsel for Eton College upon tlie proposals in the Bdl as affecting the Charterhouse School, p. 190 Reference by counsel to theeni nent men of whoirr the governing body of Charteihouse School have been from time to time and are now composed, pp. 210-212. Classical Education. Large number of boys for whom a cl.issical education is not the best adapted, Z///^^er 1190. 1193 Expediency of facilities for classical education at a low rate, so that the total abolition of the Harrow foundation is not desirable, ib. 1238. Clergy. Benefit to the poorer clergy under the system of open competition proposed for Rugby, as compared with the present system. Temple 900-903. Competitive Examinations (Entry to Public Schools^): Argument on the part of St. Paul's School against the propo'.ition in the Bill on the subject of competitive examinations, p. 5, 6. 22-24. Character of the education of witness and of the foundationers generally at Rugby belore entering the school ; difficulty if they had to pass a competitive examination on entering, Oaklei/ 109-117 What Dr. Temple proposes to teach the boys in the lower school would not fit them to go into the upper school in a competitive examination, Caldecott 180 Inadequacy of the education m the proposed lower school at Rugby, to enable the boys to pass the competitive examination for the upper school ; decided objection on this score, Wratislaw 216-222. 225 Belief that the inhabitants are generally opposed to the scheme of Dr. Temple as regards the competitive examination of foundationers before admission to the upper school, £6.225-227. Objection to any system of competitive examination before entering Rugby School, Edmunds 255, 256 ^illustration in witness's case of the inexpediency ot a competitive examination of boys of twelve or fourteen years of age for exhibitions at Rugby, Ramsey 282. 285-287 Decided objection to the proposal for a limited number of competitive exhibitions of 40 /. and 60 Z. a year in lieu of the present system of foundations, ib. 285- 293 Disadvantage of the poor man, as compared with the rich, under the proposed plan of competitive exhibitions, ib. 287. 291 Objection to the existing privilege at Rugby being in any way lettered by a competitive examination, iVewo// 331-333 Decided objection to competitive examinations before entering Harrow School, Joyce 709-712. Probability of a larger proportion of the sons of poor gentry at Rugby School by means of open competition than under tlie system of sojourners. Temple '^Qj, Facili- ties of the poorer gentry to prepare their sons for the proposed competition on entry to the school, ib. Slight use of the present high education to boys of a low scale of intellect, whereas it would be nmst advantageous to boys of real ability, i6. — —Very great benefit 10 ihe school itself if the boys were admitted by election or competition, ib. — — Valuable stimulus to education by nreans of open competition for entry to the school, ib. Character of the examination proposed lor the open competition, ib. 907. Suggestions for a system of scholarships to be competed for by the residents of Harrow of two years' standing, Butler 1177, 1178. 1239-1242 Dissent from certain objec- tions to a system of competition for exhibitions, ib. 1248, 1249. 1251, 1252. See also Harrow School. Rugby School. Cox, Charles. (Analysis of bis Evidence.)— Resides at Pinner ; complains strongly of the rigoriius rules enforced by the master of Harrow School in regard to the attendance 48°. R R 3 **■ 318 cox EDM Report, 1865 — continued. Cox, Charles. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — continued. at bills, 849-855 Tlie rules respecting bills, and the restriction in regard to boys riding oi' diiving to the school, practically exclude witness's children from the school, 852 In the opinion of witness and others the object of the rules is to exclude as many resident boys as possible from the school, 852-855. Cunm7igham, John William. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — ^Is Chuichwarden of Harrow, has lived there all his litis, and his brother and son were educated at Hairow School, 337- 347 Was not aware at the time of sitting of the Public Schuols Commission that any intimation was given to the inhabitiints of Harrow on the suliject, 34S-350 With regard to the three classes at Harrow School there were on the average twenty-seven foundationers and ten home boarders during tiie eighteen years up to 1862; 351,352. 373 Out of 201 foundationers in eighteen years, 122 could not have paid the fees for a home boarder ; data for this conclusion, 333-356. Difference of nearly 25/. between the annual fees paid by foundationers and home boarders, 356 Great value attached by the inhabitants of Harrow to the privilege of sending their boys to the school, 358 Distinction between foundationers and home boarders, through the par-nts of the latter preferring to pay the full school fees, and not taking advantage of the foundation, 359-365 There is no limit as to the number of foundationers in one family, 366, 367 Pnictice as to the admission respectively of foundationers and home boarders, 368-370. Increase in ihe number of foundationers, though not in proponion to the increase in the school generally, 371-373 Impediment to boys residing outside of Harrow coming upon the foumlaiion, on account of Dr. Vaughan and Dr. Butler having required foun- daiioners to attend "bills," or to answer to their names within a very short time after school is over on half holidays, 374-381 Previously to Dr. Vaughan's time the home boarders did not attend bills at all, 378. Obstacle to an increased number of houses within an easy distance of school, 382, 383 Probable en-ction of an improved class of residence-, if the school were removed; uinvillingiu ss, however, of the inhabitants to lose the beni fits of the school tor the sake of such impioved dwellings, 384-396 Importaiu improvement since water has been obtained iiom artesian wells, 397-400 Belief tliat very few of the parents of home boarders could have paid 'or their education if obliged to live in the masters' houses, 401, 402 Beneficial operation of the sojourners and of the permanent residents as regards socieiv at Harrow, and also as regards the masters and the school, 403-414. 420-422^ Of 201 foundationers forty-three have been the sons of widows, 409. Well-conducted and industrious character generally of the foundationeis and home boardeis, 415-419. 423, 424 Circumstance of there not having been any tradesmen's sons among the foundationers for the last eighteen years, 425 Belief that the cause of tradesmen not taking advantage of the foundation is, that there are not classes low enouiih for their bovs, or commencing at a sufficiently early age, 426-439. 450-45^ Satisfaction to the tradesmen if there were some lower classes in the existing school, whence the boys might, upon attaining a certain standard, go into the upper school, 430- 442. 448, 4^9 Dissatisfaction of the tradesmen with the English form, as they con- ceive they have a right to send their children on the foundation of the school, 430. 433- 437- 447- Similar class of boys comprising home boarders as foundationers, except that the parents of the former are generally in better circumstances, 443-446 Main oljection to Dr. Butler's scheme for a separate school as destroying the foundation of Joiin Lyon, whereas the institutions of the founder may easily he carried out, 45,5-461 Con- sideration of the question of funds available from the bequest ol John Lyon, with relcience to tiieir suthciency for the establishment of some junior forms 111 the existing school, 459-465. 477-498. Statement as to a large sum having been spent amiually upon the buildings out of the trust funds, and as to the foundationers and home boarders having paid something towards the buildings, 461-471. 404-496 Reference to the question of allowing the fonndatioiicis to ride or drive between the school and their homes, 472 Aljsence of social disiinction between the foundationers or home boarders and the other boys, 473- 476. Although .lolin Lynn's will contemplated the present class of foundationers, it is not completely carried out otherwise, 477-479 V\'itness contemplates three junior forms, and about fifty foundationers, the sons of tradesmen, 4S0-483 Keferencc to the question of the alienation of a portion of John Lyon's bequest from the school to the roads, 499-501. Edmunds, Edmund. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is an ironmonger at Rugby ; has a son at the school, 228-232 Value attached by witness to the association of his son with those of a rank above him, 233. 251, 252 It depends ujion the abilities shown by his sun EDM GOV 319 Report, 1 86,5 — continued. Edmunds, Edmund. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. son wlietlier witness will send him to the University; importance attached, however, to the classical education of his son, even ifj)Iaced iu coniinerciai piiisuits, 234-2:58. 2,53. 258-264 Payment hy witiK'ss of ten giimeas for a classical tutor for his scm, and of ten guineas for a mathematical tutor, the latter arrangement being optional, 239-245 -Statement as to those unable to pay having a claim to the payment for tutors being remitted to them, 246-248. Opinion as to the clear right of the inhabitants of Rugby to the free education of their sons at Rugby School, 249, 250 Witness looks u|)on such education as tiie birth- right of his sons, 250 Decided objection to the proposal of Dr. Temple for a separate school, as offering no equivalent for ihe advantages now possessed, 251-257 Similar education contemplated for (he sons of tradesmen and of peers uj) to about sixteen years of age, 253 Impediment to tradesmen availing tlieniselves of the privileges of the school, if obliged to pay sciiool charges amounting to 40/, a year, 254. 257. Objection to any system of competitive examination before entering the school, 255, 256 Advantage of a development of the existing lower school, rather than of the establishment of a separate school, 257. 270 Intention of witness to send another son to the school, 265, 266 Probability of the sous of tradesmen bein;: kept at the school until about sixteen years old, 267-269 With regard to the smaller class of tradesmen, a few of them have availed themselves of the privilege of the foundation for their sons, 271. English Form (Harrow). See Harrow School, 7. Entrance Examinations. Circumstance of there being now an examination at Rugby before a foundationer can enter the school, Newall ^io, 336 Considerable adv,ini;iL;e uhich has resulted from the system of entrance examination, as introduced at Riisibv on the recommendation of the Public School Commissioners, Temple 864 There is no requirement that the boys should have any previous knowledge of Latm, ih. 872-874. Particulars relative to the entrance examination at Rugby, and the circumstances under which boys are rejected as not complying with the required tests. Temple !^8i — 895 One main object of the entrance examination is to reject those boys wiio, being above the age of fifieen, are not fit to enter higher than the lower sciiool, ib. 881 -883 A further purpose of the examinaiion is to determine in what form each boy is to b' pi. iced, ib. 881 — —Since the examinaiion no boys have been received as boarders who do not kmiw some Latin, ib. 883-890 Objection to the test examination, including English reading and writing, ib. 904-906. Entrance examination recently established at Harrow under which all boys coming after the present year to the upper school must show some knowledge of L-itin and Gieek, Butler 1140, 1141. 1144-1149. Sugo'estions in Report by Dr. Temple to the trustees of Rugby School in regard to the question of an entrance examination, App. 303. See also Competitive Examinations. Eton College. Argument by Mr. Hope Scott, on the part of the Provost and Colieoe of Eton, against sundry propositions in the Bill before the Committee, pp. 189 et .seq. Ex/iibitionships or Sc/iolarships. Proposition for a number of exhibitions as a means of carrying deserving boys from the lower school proposed by witness at Rusjbv to the great school. Temple 861-864 Want of a system of exhibitions or scholaiships at Harrow in order to enable it to compete with the other puidic schools in obtaining able boys; value of these to the school generally, Butler 1245-1247. See also Competitive Examinations. Harrow School, 9. I^i'gbrj Sciiool, 5. Foundationers. See Arnold, Dr. Competitive Examinations. Gratuitous Education. Harrow School. Home Boarders. Residents or Sojourners. Bugby School. Shrewsbury School, 3. Tradesmen's Sons. G. Governing Bodies of Schools. Advantage if two or three of the governors of Ilairow School represented local interests, Joyce 700-705 Expediency of some of the gover- nors of Harrow School being local residents, Layard 844. 846.* Disapproval of any change in the governing body of Rugby School, or of the addition of any trustees, as proposed in the Bill, Temple 1053-1065- Decided objection to the proposal in the Bill for increasing the number of governors of Harrow School from six to tyfolve, Butler 1257, 1258 Difficulty in always securing a quorum with the piesent 481. R R 4 number 320 GOV H A R Report, 1865 — continued. Governing Bodies of Schools — continued, number of" governors ; approval oti this LTOund of two or three additional goveniois, Butler 1257, 1258. 1260, 1261 Approval of a casting vote in the Archbishop of Canterbiiry, if an even number of governors be retained ; advantage on this score of au odd number, ib. 1258 Objection to the proposed addition of three scientific governors, as likely to lead to undesirable interference with the head master, ib. 1259. 1268, 1269. Satisfactoiy relations now existinu; between the head master and the governors of Harrow School, Butler i2fii — — Advantage of the present general check over the head master, rather than of the governors taking the initiative in any matter, ib. 126J. 1264- 2269 Approval of the governors exercising a control over the large sums received through the head master from the foreigners, such sums being now uncontrolled, ib. 1262-1264. 1267, Remarks on report of Dr. Temple upon the recommendations of the Public School Commissioners in regard to the trustees of Rugby School, and their relation to the head master, App. 293, 294. Clause proposed to be inserted in the Bill, by the Chairman of the Committee, defining the governing body of each school. Rep. ix Adoption of the foregoing, sub- ject to an amendment as regards St. Paul's School, ib. ix, x. See also Mercers' Company. Shreuisbury School, 4. Gratuitous Education. Privilege of gratuitous education granted to certain classes in the cases of Rugby and Harrow, under their foundations, but not in the case of Shrewsbury, Kennedy 1396-1426. See also Harroio School. Residents or Sojourners. Rugby School. Greek. Statement in explanation and justification of the rule at Harrow that boys enter- ims. the ureat school must in future show some knowledge of Greek, Btitler 1144-1149. 1160-1170 Impediment to boys coming from the lower to the upper school, the education in the former not qualifying them in Greek: how this difficulty may be removed in exceptional cases, ib. 1150-1154. 1167-1170. H. Harrow School : 1. Defence generally of the System of Foundationers. 2. FrofosiliiiH fir Lower Forms in the present School, as preferable to a Separate and Lower School- 3. Funds availablf for the Establishment of Lower Forms. 4. Valuation of the School Estate, and Question as to the Claim of the Foundationers in respect of the Buildings. 5. System of Bills, and of Attendance thereat. 6. Restriction as regards Riding or Driving to the School. 7. Information in Connection with the English Form. 8. Local Effect of the School. 9. Suggestions by Dr. Butler. lO. Other Particulars generally. 1 . Defence generally of the System of Foundationers : Witness is churchwarden of Harrow ; has lived there all his life, and his brother and sons were educated at Harrow School, Cunningham 337-347 Out of 201 founda- tioners in eighteen years, 122 could not have paid the fees for a home boarder; data for this coiicl'ision, ib. 353-356 Difference of nearly 25 /. between the annual fees paid by foundationers and home boarders, ib. 356 Great value attaclied by the inhabitants of Harrow to the privilege of sending their boys to the school, ib. 358 Of 201 foun- dationers foity-three have been the sons of widows, ib. 409. Well-condnctpfl and industrious character generally of the foundationers and home- boarders, Cunningham 415-419. 423, 424 Main objection to Dr. Butler's scheme for a separate school as destroying the foundation of John Lyon, whereas the intentions of the founder may easily be carried out, ib. 455-461 Absence of any social distinction between the foundationers or home boarders and the other boys, ib. 473-476 Although •lohn Lvon's will coiitem|)lated the present class of foundationers, it is not completely carried out otherwise, ib. 477-479. Absence of social distinction in witness's time between foreigners and foundationers, Soamcs 507 Witness has had five sons educated on the foundation, all of whom made satisfactory progress in the school, Heiclcit 565, 566 Without the privileges of the foundation, witness could not have sent her sons to Hanow ; she could not conveniently have sent them as home-boarders not on the foundation, Prior 589-593. 609-611 Witness's sons have all done well at the school. Hi. .397. Witness HARROW SCHOOL. 321 Report, 1865 — continued. Ha RROW Sen O ol — con ti n mid . 1. Defence t/enera/Ji/ of the Si/sletn of Foundationers — continued. Witness was educated at Iliinow, ins mother having resided there for several years, and having been therel)y enabled to pluce liini on the foundiitlon, Jfcathfirld G29-fJ3i No social distinction "as observed on the jjart ot tlie noii-roundaiiiiiuis towards witness as foundationer, ih. (i3'2-G;55 Large local expenditure by the Board of Health in expectation of the present circumstances continuing, Wlnldey 807. Argument of counsel for the inhabitants of Harrow in disapj)r(jval of thi- |)roposition in the Bill for interfering with their privileues under the will of the fotinder of the sciiool, jjp. 76-1^5 Objection in argument of counsel to any limitation ot the nuiuljers in the school, p. 94. 2. Proposition for Lniucr Forms in tlie present School, as preferable to a Separate and Lowtr School : Satisfaction to the tradesmen if there were some lower clas^^es in the existing school, whence the boys might, upon attaining a certain standard, go into the upper school, Cunningham 430-442. 448, 489 -Witness contemplates three junior forms, and about fifty foundationers, the sons of tradesmen, ib. 480-483. Desire of the inhabitants for lower classes in the existinsi school, as far |)refeiab!e to a separate and lower school, Sonines 546 Witness concurs fully in the evidence of Mr. Cunningham and in his objections to a separate and lower scho il, Hewlett ,578-581 Witness, who is Vicar of Harrow, is well conversant with the local leeling on the subject of the piesent Bill, Joyct 636-640 Believes that the scheme of Dr. Butler would not meet the wishes of any class of the inhabitants, ib. 641 -Objection to the scheme on the part of the resident gentry, as excluding ihem from the benefits of the found.ition, ih. Concurrence in the vie>\s of Mr. Cunningh;ini in favour of two lower foinis in the present school, instead of a separate school, ih. 642 Suggestion that bo\s in the pro- posed lower forms might pay 5 I. or 6 /. a year, ih. 643. 66-2-665. 683. Distinct character of the education which might be provided in the lower forms ; absence of objection on this scoie as com pi red with distinct and lower e lucation in a separate school, Joyce 652-659 Witness contemplates that the lower forms should not be limited to foundationers, ;ind that every b^y should have the opportunity of going on to the upjier forms, ib. 667-674 Estimate of about twenty-five boys as foundationtrs in the lower school, and of a similar number of foundationers in the upper school, ib. 675-680 Witness approves junerally of the plan advocated by Mr. Cunningliara, ih. 693 Boys in the lower school should be ihorou^hly well grounded in English, Latin, and French, ih. 698. 3. Funds available for the Establishment of Lower Forms. Consideration of the question of funds available from the bequest of John Lyon, with reference to their sufficiency for the establishment of some junior forms in the existing school, Cunnintjham ^(U-^-j\. 477-438 Stattment as to a lar^e sum having been spent annually upon the buildings out of the trust funds, and as to the foundationers and home boarders having paid something towards the building, 26.461-471.494-496 Reference to the question of the alienation of a portion of John Lyon's bequest from the school to the roads, ib. 499-501. Means of improving the property of the Lyon trust, in order to defray the expense of the proposed lower forms, Joi/ce 643-651 Very little charge to be thrown upon the present endowment in respect of two lower forms, ih. 660-666 Further statement as to the expense of the proposed lower forms, and the claim in this respect upon the pro- perty of the trustees, ib. 682-692 Opinion that the foreigners should jjay more to the sustentation of the buildings, and that some money might thus be set free in aid of lower forms, ib. 689-692. 4. Valuation of the School Estate, and Question as to the Claim of the Foundationers in respect of the Buildings ; Witness, who is a surveyor at Watford, has recently made a valuation of certain pro- perties of Harrow School, 'i/M«6e?-i 714-726 — — Largf and increasing value of the pro- perty on the Preston estate, ih. 727-737 Estimate of 4,273 /. as the total annual value of all the school property, including the buildings; particulars hereon, i6. 738-763 Estimated increased rental of the 1,530/. in lieu of the present rental of 1,022/., ih. 742- 744 Items calculated as representing the annual value of the several school buildings, ib. 747-763. Statement showing that tliere is only about 700 /. a year at the disposal of the governors of Harrow for the purposes of education, Butler 11 31 -1138 Several deduciions from the total income of the governors, as for national schools in the parish, chanty, manage- ment expenses, &c., ib. 1134-1139 Explanatory statement lelalive to the sources whence the cost of certain buildings, and of the land upon which erected, have been defrayed, showing that the foundationers have httle or no claim in this respect, ib. 1272-1282 Inaccuracy of the data assumed in the valuation laid before the Com- 481. Ss mittee 322 HARROW SCHOOL. Report, 1865 — continued. Harrow School — continued. 4. Valuation of the School Estate, §'C. — continued. mittee by Mr. Humbert, Butler 12 73-1 '275 Erection of witness's boarding bouse at the expense of the old Hiarovians, the rent being fixed at 60/. a-year; readiness already expressed by witness to pay an increased rent, ib. 1278. 1281, 1282, Argument on the part of the peiitioners that in reality 2,000 /. a year should be appro- priated to the foundation, p. 122. Argument on tlie part of the petiti'iners as to the claim of the foundationers in respect of the large sums spent from time to time for the sustentation uf the buildings, p. 122. Paper containing details of Mr. Humbert's valuation of Harrow School estate, App. 292. P;iptr explanatory of the cost of the several school buildings at Harrow, and the sources whence the sites were procured, and the expenditure was defrayed, App. 305. 5. System of Bills, and of Attendance thereat : Impediment to boys residing outside of Harrow coming upon the foundation, on account of Dr. Vauiihan and Dr. Butler having required foundationers to attend ''Bills," or answer to their names within a very short time after school is over on half-holidays, Cun- ninaham 374-381 Previously to Dr. Vaughan's lime the home boarders did not attend Bills at all, ib. 378 Obstacle to an increased number of houses within an easy dis- tance of school, 26. 38-2, 383. Evidence in explanation and disapproval of the system of " Bills," as carried out by Dr. Vaugh:in and Dr. Butler, on account of the practical exclusion thereby from the school (;f all boys who do not reside within a very short distance, Soanies .521-527. 534- 543 instance of a parent living within a mile and a-half of the school sending his son to Merchant Tavlors' School, the distance from Harrow School precluding attendance there under the present system, ib. 548-550. Inconvenience of the system of requiring home boarders to attend Bills, Zang- 627, 628 Great inconvenience throu'.;h the necessity of witness's son, now at the school, attending the Bills, Layard 845-848 In the cjjinion of witness and others, the object of thf rule is to exclude as many resident boys as possible fioin the school, Cox 852-855. Absolute character since 1852 of the rule as to attenrlance at Bills, Butler 1197 Probability of the rule as to Bills having first been framed with a view to limiting the number of foundationers, ib. 1200 Question considered as to granting certain facilities in the case of boys living at an inconvenient distance as regards attendance at the Bill after dinner hour, ib. 1213-1223. 6. Restriction as regards Hiding or Driving to the School : Ilefeience to the question of allowing the foundationers to ride or drive between the school and thtir homes, Cunningham .\J 2 Prohibition by the late and present master in regard to boys riding or driving to school, Soames 527-533 Witness is prepared to contest the question as to the right of his boys to nde or drive to the school frotn a dis'.anci^of a few miles, Miller 839, 840. Approval on the whole o( the rule prohibiting boys from riding or driving to the school, thouuli in exceptional instances it* may operate harshly, Butler 1197-12 I 2. 7. Information in connection with the English Form : Impediment to the boys rising from the present English form to the upper school, Soames 54(1, 547 Iteference to the circumstances under which the English form was establislicd by Dr. Vauiihan, Chajtmnn 783. 785-789 Statement as to the impedi- ment now offered to boys entering the upper shool Irom the lower form; reference more especially to a certain paper required to be signed by the fathers of boys on jjUicing their sons in the English form, Winkley 8 16-824. Complete s; partition between the English form or lower school and the upper school, except that the former is equally under the head master, Butler 1141-1143 Very ignoiant state generally of the boys who enter the English form, iJ. 1143 Improba- bility of many boys remaining in the lower school up to the age of fifteen, ib. 1155, 1156 Disad vantages under which the English form has been cairied on, notwithstanding which it has by no means been a failinc, ib. 1157 The master of the lower school is appointed by witness and has pructically the entire charge, ib. 1158, 1159. Apprehension that the lower form of the u|jper school must be degraded too much if boys iV'im the Eiiiilish farm were to pass directly to it, Butler llfio Respects in which the school proposed by Dr. Temple fijr Kngby differs frt)m the lower school at Harrow, ib. 117'), 1177 Absenre of anything in common between the boys in the English furin and in the public school, ib. 1186, 1187. U. Local JEffect of the School : Probable erection of an improved class of residences if the school were removed ; unwillingness, however, of the inhabitants to lose the benefits of the school lor the sake of such improved dwellings, Curt/<%/iaw 384-396 Respects in which the proximity of H A 11 H I N 323 Report, 1 865 — continued. Harrow School — continued. 8. Local Effect of the School — continued. of the scliool is injurious 10 the adjacent land, Chapman, yj^-y^i Injury done to witness's hedges by the boys; lie is however on excellent terms wiih them and with the school, ib. 772, 773. 78'2-784 Deteriorution caus;ed by the school in the vahie of certain properties at Harrow, whilst in some jilaces pro])erty has much benefit'-d by the school, Wiiihley 805-807 Great local benefit caused by the school iuid by the expen- diture made tlnough the foreigners, Butler 1256. 9. Sugyeslions h\) Dr. Hutler : Propositi that the English form at Harrow be regarded as the first charge upon ihc income of the governors, Butler 1177 Any surplus available after meeting the charge for the English form should be divided in scholarships to be competed for by the inhabi- tants of Harrow of two years' residence, ib. 1177, 1178 Advantage of limiting the number of foundationers as much as possible to those who are near residents, ib. 1222, 1223. Approval of an extended or open competition lor the proposed scholarships if the Governors had a large fimd to dispose of; advantage in limiting liie competition to resi- dents, the available surplus being so •ima.M, Butler, 1239-1242 Great miportance to the school of a system of exhibitions or scholarships, ib. 1245-1247 Probable surplus of about 300Z. a-year for foundation scholarships after meeting the charge of the English form, ib. 1252-1254 Willingness of witness to provide a certain number of scholar- ships in respect of holding his house rent-free, tb. 1272. 1278. 10. Other Particulars Generally: There were on the average twenty-seven foundaiioners and ten home boar!!eis during the eighteen years up to 1862, Cunningham 351, 352. 373 Foundationers pay 17 ^. 17 s. per annum, ib. 356 There is no limit to the number of foundationers in one family, ib. 366, 367 Increase in the number of foundationers though not in proportiim to the increase in the school generally, ib. 371-373 — — -Important improvement since water has been obtained fr(mi Artesian wells, ib. 397—400 Statement as to the school not having been used by tradesmen, and as to the cause of their not tailing advantage of the ioundation, ib. 425-439. 450-454. The cost of education of each of witness's sons has been 17 Z. 10 s. a-year, for tutors and school charges ; this is irrespective of any optional piyment for a mathematical master, Prior 6co-6o8 There is now no limit as to the tei m of residence qualifying for founda- tioners, i^K^Zi?- 1179, ii8q There are now thirty-seven foundationers, which is the highest number ever reached, ib. 1181. See also Ages of Boys. Competitive Examinations. Entrance Examinations. Governing Bodies of Schools. Home Boarders. Physical Science. Pinner. Tradesmen's •'Sons, 1. Wembley. Mead Masters. Non-interference of the trustees of Rugby School with the head master either in the choice of master, or the direction of the studies: approval thereof. Temple 1049-1051, 1054-1065 Suggestion as regards clause 9 of the Bill, tiiat there should be equal pov\er to deal with the salary of the head master, as of the other masters, ib. 1094-1096 Effect of the Bill rather to diminish the powers of the govcrnino- body, and to increa-e those of the master of Rugby School, ih. 1097, 1098 Objection to the proposal in the Bill that the head master should have power to dismiss certain of the masters, whom at present he can only suspend, ib. 1098-1 102. Approval of the present relative powers if tiie trustees and head master at Rugby, Temple 1103 Statement in favour of the head masters of the public schools having entire contiol in regard to the appointment cf masters, z&. 1109-1111 Advantage in the whole of the discipline of Shrewsbury School being left to the head master, Kennedy 1442-1444- Heathjield, Edward Eames. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Was educated at Harrow, his mother having resided there for several years, and having been thereby enabled to place him on the foundation, 629-631 No social distinction was observed on the part of the non-fbuiidationers towards witness as foundationer, 632-635. Hewlett, Thomas (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is one of the surgeons to Harrow School; has resideil at Harrow for upwards of forty years, 562-564 Has had five sons educated on the foundation, all of whom made satisfactory progress in the school, 565, 566 Con- siders that the home-boarder system has had a most beneficial influence upon the tone and character of the school, 567-577 Concurs fully in the evidence of Mr. Cunning- ham, and ir? his objections to a separate and lo\\er school, 578-581 Objects to any limitation of the number of home-boarders, as resulting probabl;,' from the proposed Bill, 5S2, 583. Hind, The Rev. William Marsden. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is perpetual curate of Pinner, 551 Was previously curate of Harrow, and had accepted such curacy, chiefly 481, s s 2 with 324 H I N JOY JRe|ioit, 1SG5 — continued. Hind, The Rev. William Marsden. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. witli refi^rence to the education of his two sons at Harrow School, ,5,52 On going to Pinner, witness applied that one of his sons, already in the school, should i)e allowed to ride to school, and should be excused from bills on half-holidays, ib. Refusal of Dr. Butler to accede to either of the foregoing requests, ib. Permission subsequently accorded by Dr. Butler, that witness's son might board with a friend in Harrow, and so continue on the foundation, 5,52-,554 Inability of witness to avail himself of ihe pri- vileges of a resident in the case of his second son, on account of the regulations entorced by Dr. Butler, tliougii not conteni] lated by the founder of the school, 554-561. Home Boarders. The home boarders at Rugby are boys whose parents have not completed their two years' residence, and these pay for their education, Bloxam 47, 48. Home boarders at Harrow pay 4t /. 5 5. per nnnum, Cunningham 356 Distinction at Har- row between foundationers and home boarders, through the parents of the latter |/referring to pay the full school fees, and not taking advantage of the foundation, ih. 359-365 Practice as to the admission, respectively, of foundationers and home boarders, at Harrow, ib. 368-370 Belief that very lew parents of home boarders could have paid lor their education, if obliged to live in the masters' houses, ib. 401,402 Similar class of boys, conipiising home boarders as foundationers, except that the parents of the former are generally in better circumstances, ib. 443-446. Witness considers that the hnme-bo.irder system has had a most beneficial influence upon the tone and charwcier of Harmw School, Hndett ^Q-]-^-]'j Objection to any limitation of the number of home boarders, as resulting probably from the proposed Bill, ib. 582-583. Witness has resided at Harrow for thirteen years, and has had five sons e'iucated there as home boarders on the foundation. Lung 613-616 Statement as to the very satis- factory conduct of witness's boys as home boarders, and the distinguished positions attained by them in the school, ib. 615-619 Excellent career of some of witness's boys in ihe athleiic sports of liie sehuol. ib. 615-618 Decided preference for ihe system of home boarders, as compared with the system of masters' houses, ib. 616. 619-626. Great importance attached to the class of home boarders at Harrow, Butler 1224. 1231-1233 Suggestion that the uumlier of home boarders at Harrow, including found- ationers, be limited to sixty, it beiuL; desirable also to place a limit upon the number in masters' houses, ib. 1224-1237 Even if the foundation were abolished, the home boarder class would continue, z7;. 1234 The masters are unanimous in their desire to have the home boarder element, ib. 1235. Argument by counsel on the part of the inhabitants of Harrow, in favour of a retention of the piivileges of the home hoarder system, pp. 94, 95. Humbert, Charles Francis. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Surveyor at Watford ; has recently made a valuation of certain properties of Harrow School, 714-726 Large and increasing value of the property on the Preston estate, 727-737 Estimate of 4,273/. as the total annual value of all the school property, including the buildings, particulars hereon, 738-763 Estimated increased rental of 1,530 /. in lieu of the ))resent rental of 1,022 /., 742-744 Items calculated as representing the annual value of the several school buildings, 747-763. Huxleii, Thomas Henry, F.R.S. Communication from Mr. Huxley containing suggestion in regard to the teaching of physical science in the public schools, App. 308, 309. Joyce, The Eev. Hayward. (An.dysis of his Evidence.) — Vicar of Harrow ; is well con- versant with the local feeling on ihe subject of the present Bill, 636-640 Believes that il'.e scheme of Dr. Butler would not meet the wishes of any class of the inhaiiitants, 641 Objection to the scheme on the part of the resident gentry, as excluding them from the benefits of tlie f unidation, ib. Decided objection also by the tradesmen, inasmuch as the scheme deprives th m entirely of a right which they greatly value, ib. Concurrence in the views of Mr. Cunningham in favour of two lower forms in the ]ire>ent school, instead of a separate school, 042 Suggestion that boys in the proposed lower forms niiuhi pay 5 /. or 61. a year, 643. 662-6()5. 6^*3— — Means of improving the pioperty of the Lyon Trust, in order to defray the expense of the jnoposed lower forms, 643-651 Distinct character of the education which might be provided in the lower foruis; absence of objection v\\ this score as compared with distinct and lower education in a separate school, 652-659 Very little charge to be thrown upon the present endow- ment in n spect o{ two lower forms, ()6o-666. Witness contemplates that the lower forms siiould not be limited to foundationers, and tliat I very hoy should have the opportunity of going on to the upper forms, 667-674 list imate of about twentv-five boys as foundationers in tlie lower school, and of a similar JOY KEN 325 Report, 1865 — continued, Joyce, The Rev. Haywanl. (Analysis of liis Evidence) — continued. similar number of foundationers in the upper school, G75-680 Further stiitemeiit as to the expense of the proposed lower f'onus, and the elaim in tiiis respect upon the pro- perty of the trustees, U82-692 Opinion that the foreigners should piy inoie to the susteiitat'ion of the buildings, and that some money might thus be set free in aid of lower forms, 689-692. Witness approves generally of the plan advocated by Mr. Cunningham, 693 Belief that up to a certain age boys may satisfactoially be educated together in the same school, though after such age soirve go into commercial pursuits and some go on to the Universi- ties, 69^-697. 706-708 Boys in the lower school should be thoroughly well grounded in English, Latin, and Freiieh,'698 Very beneficial effect of the re-idence of parents of home boarders and foundationers, 699 Advantage if two or three of the governors of the school represented local inlerest^., 700-70.'-, Decided objection to competitive examinations before entering the school, 709-712. K. Kennedy, The Rev. Benjamin Hull, n.n. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Submits that some legislation is necessary for several f)urposes in the inteiest of Shrewsbury School, 1328, 1329 Expediency of some legislative declaration as to the public and national character of the school, as well as of some alteration in its title, 1328-1334 Sug- gestion also that some representation of Shrewsbury corporation, and of the Univer- sities, be imported into the governing body of the school, 1328 Also that there be a clear definition as to the persons having a claim to gratuitous education, 1328. 1335. 133C^ Expediency of the governing body being empowered, and lequiring to take imme- diate steps towards rebtidding the houses and chapel of the school, 1328 — -—-Kepre- sentaiion that justice should be done to the school in the matter of Dr. Millington's trust, and the scholarships now appiopriated to Magdalen College, CambridLie ; how this amendment may be effected, 1328. 1482 Objection to the valuation of the studies being vested in the new governing body, instead of on the head master; approval, however, of the subjects cf study being prescribed by the governing body, 1337. 13*^5-1394- Concurrence in the view of Dr. Bateson, that the appointment of head master should continue in St. John's College, 1338-1340 Advantage m the second master being nppointed by the College, rather than by the new governing body; expediency how- ever of this appointment being in the head master, 1341-1344 Approval of the proposal in the Bill, on the subject of open scholarships in the school, 1345- Sug- gestion as regards the governing body, that three governors might be appointed by the corpemition, 1349. 1353-1359. 1367-1369- 1394 Very fair representation of the town on the presetit governing body, 1350. 1355. Explanation that witness is not desirous for any change in the governing body if the alterations contemplated by him are made; apprehension that the present body is not hkely to carry out these changes, 1351. 1360-1372. 1376-1384 -Considerable value attached to the Caresweil exhibitioas, connecting the school with Christ Church., Oxford, 1352 Element in the governing body in favour of giving the school a more national character, and of making It beneficial to the public at large, 1365, 1366. 1370-1372. 1381 Approval of the abolition, as a matter of principle, of the privileges of burgesses as to free education in the school ; apprehension, however, that a veiy angry leeling would be created in the town by such abolition, 1373-1375- 1394-14-7- Grounds for concluding that under the original foundation and the different charters, the privilege of gratuitous education was not intended to be provided for any class, 1396- 1426 Privilege of aratuitous education granted to certain classes in the cases of Rugby and Harrow under theii original foundations, 1404-1406 Arrangement between Mr. Ashton, on the p^irt of the Crown, and the municipality, which resulted m the latter obtaining certain privileges for tlie burgesses, 140-). 1409-1415 Absence of injury to the school, or of piessure opon the funds through the gratuitous education now given, 1417-1420. 1427.' Further statement that, in the interests of the school, the scholarships restricted to Maodalen College should be thrown open, 1428. 1431-1436. 1482 Expediency in the rase of St. John's College and of Christchurch of retaining the present connection with the school as regards exhibitions, 1428-1430 Approval of a nominee from Christchurch and of one from St. John's College on the governing body, 1437 Advantage in the whole of the discipline of the school being left to the head master, 1442-1444. Desire of witness to establish a class for physical science; difficulties on the subject, 1445-1448. 1460-1462 Classical character of the school; French is, however, com- pulsory, and witness would approve of the introduction of German and Italian, 1449- 481. SS3 1459 ■326 KEN MAS Report, 1 865 — continued. Kennedy, The Rev. Benjamin Hall, D.D. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. '459 Probable advantage if there were an executive commission, which should confer with the governing body us to the required reforms, 14G4 Particulars relative to the non-collegiate class established by witness, and subsequently withdrawn in consequeuce of the report of the Commissioners ; regret expressed at its discontinuance, 146,5-1471 Considerations as to the mode in which the rebuilding of the houses and chapel may best be provided for : funds available for the purpose, 1474-1481. Lang, Arthur. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has resided at Harrow for thirteen years, and lias bad live sons educated there as home boarders on the foundation, 613-616 State- ment as to the very satisfactory conduct of witness's boys as home boarders, and the distinguished positions attained by them in the school, 615-619 Excellent career of some of witness's boys in the athletic sports of the school, 615-618 Decided prefer- ence for the system of home boardeis as compared with the system of masters' houses, 616. 619-G26 Very benefiiial effect produced in various ways by the residence of persons who take advantage of the foundation, 62'2-624 Inconvenience of the system of requiring home boarders to attend bills, 627, 628. Langdnle, Lord. Reference by counsel to a statement by Lord Langdale, in the case of Rugby School, that the first object to be considered was the claim of the foundationers, P- 139- Layard, The Rev. Charles Clement. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is incimibent of Wembley; submits that it would be a grievous injur j' to himself and others if John Lyon's ioundation at Harrow were abolished, 841-844 Important benefit of the foundation to the incumbent of Wembley for the lime being, 844 Strong objection of the faimers of Wembley to the scheme of Dr. Butler, S44 Expediency ol some of the governors of the school being local residents, H44. 846 Great inconvenience, through the necessity of witness's son, now at the school, attending the bills, 845-848. Leigh, Edward Alleshey Boughlon Ward Boughton. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Submits that the parish of Brownsover has a distinct claim or privilege under the will of the founder of Rugby School ; its case is similar to that of Rugby itself, 1483-1489. Lower Forms. See Harrom School. Ri'gljy School, Laioh, John. See Harrow School. Residents and Sojourners. M. 31a(jdalen College, Cambridge. Representation that justice should be done to Shreusbury School in the matter of Dr. Miliington's Trust, and the scholarships now appropriated to Magdalen College, Cambridge ; how this amendment may be effected, Kennedy 1328. 1482 Further statement that in the interests of the S'.hool the scholarships restricted to Magdalen College should be thrown open, ib. 1428. 1431-1436. 1482. Explanation that the steps taken by the University Commission in i860, in regard to the Millington Fellowships at Magdalen College, Cambridge, were not so taken ac the instance of the college, Neville 1491-1494 The college would rather that the change had not been effected at all, zZi, 1495-1497 Better position of the men from Shrews- bury since the change effected by the University Commissioners, ib. 1498-1511 Large shaie of the open fellowships of the college held by Shrewsbury scholars, ih. 1501. 1528-1532. Clever class of men who come to Magdalen from Shrewsbury; objection on this ground to a severance of the present connection between the college and school, Neville 1512-1523 In the event of the conneciion between the school and Magdalen College being severed, there would no longer beany reason for the latter being represented on the governing body of the school, ib. 1524-1526 Non-disturbance by the University Commissioners of the scholarships at Magdalen in respect of other schools than Shrews- bury, ih. 1533, '534 Insufficiency of the grounds on which it is contended that the college should be divested of the Millington scholarships, ib. 1535. Argument by counsel on the part of St. Mary Magdalen College against that poition of the Bill afiiicling certain scholarships connected with Shrewsbury School and IMugdalen College, and proposing to sever the connection between the college and the school, pp. 272—281, Masters {lluf/hy School). Objection to any plan by vvhicli the masters should not be directly jniid for teaching the foundationers of the town, Temple 922-924 Advantage in leavini,' the appointment of masiers entirely to the head master, without any reference to candidates educated in the particular school where the vacancy is sought for, ib. 1109- 1111. Considerations MAS N O N 327 Report, 18G5 — continued. Masters ( R'igby School) — continued. Considerations siil)initte(l in report of Dr. Temple with reference to the recommenda- tions of the Public School Commissioners in regard to tlie position and stip(;n(ls of the foundation masters at Rughy, Aj>p. 295 Statement in report of Dr. 'i'empie explana- tory of the salaries and remuneration of tiic several masters, ih. 295, 296. Considerations submitted by Dr. Temjjle upon the recointnend.itions of the Pubhc School Coiinnissioners in regard to the misters' remuneration from various suurees, App. 296-299 Statement by Dr. 'rcmplo as to the want of additional masters at Rugby, ib. 303, 304. Masters' Houses. Contamination consequent u|)on tlie association in masters' iiouses, so that the system of liome boarders is far ])refcrai)le, Lan" 6ig. 6-2,5, G26. Ifulhemalics. Instruction in mathematics has been given at Harrow for niciny years, Butler 1 194, 1 195. Mercers' Company. Aruument against the l^ill by counsel on the part of tlie Mercers' Company uith reference to the mode in which it affects the interest nf Sr. Paul's school, the contiol of the company over the school, and certain properly vested in the company, pp. 3 et seq. — ^Claim on the part of the company to a beneficial interest in properly dealt with by the Bill; argument as to the interference thereby with the lights of property, ;Bp. 6-1 7 Details subiniited in opposition to the change contemjilated by the Bill in regard to the governing body of the school, pp. 17-26. Further siutement by counsel for the company that tl:e latter wished to be excluded altogether from the operation of the Bill, as regards St. Paul's school, |?p. 75, 76. Equal division of the eonuiiittee on tlie question that the governing body of St. Paul's sch(iol shall be tlie master, warden, and assistants ol' the Mercers' Company, lli'.p. ix. Merchant Taylors' School. Comment bv counsel for Eton College upon the omission of iVlerchant Taylors' school fiom tlie Bill, /. 3. Preparalor^ Schools. Importance attached to preparaiory schools throughout the country, as the best means of qualifying boys for the public schools, Butler 1 160, 1 161. Prior, Pliabe Cathcriuc. (Analysis of her Evidence.) — Is widow of a Chancery barrister, and has made Harrow her residence, expressly for the purpose of availing hoiseU'of the privilcLres of the foundation of the school for the education of her boys, 584-598 Without the privileges of the (bundation witness could not have sent her sons to Harrow; she could not conveniently have sent them as home-boardeis not on the liiundation, 589- 593- 609-611 Witness's sons have all done well at the school, 597 The cost of education of each son lias been 17/. I s. a year, fur tutors ami school. charges ; this is irrespective of any oj)tional payment for a mathematical master, 600-608 Some of the schijolboys occasionally come t') witness's house, 612. Public PUB RES 329 Report, 1865 — continued. % Public School Commission. Witness was not aware at the time of sittinfj of the Public Schools Commission that any iutiination vv;ts oiven to the inhabit;ii)ts of Huirovv on the subject, Cuiiiiinyham 348-350 Decided objection to tiie iccoiMnii ndations of tiie Public Schdols Commissioners res|)c;ctin<; Harrow School, as having been j^roiindtd on ex parte evidence, IViiikk'i/ 815. Puhtication of Evidence. Refusal by the Committee of an application that copies of the daily evidence may be supplied to the Parliamentary agents, as in the case of Private Bdl Committees, p. 3. R. Ramsay, .fames Ilenri/. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Barrister-at-law ; is eldest son of Sir George Ramsay of BanlF, and was educated at Rugby on the foundation, -272-274 • Limited means of v\itness's fother when the tducation of witness and two brothers had to bf provided lor; advantage in this contingency of the facilities off'eied by the fouiulationat Rugby, 275 Very imperfect manner in which witness had been grounded before going to Rugby at the age of 12 ; consequent disadvantage under which he laboured throughout his subsequent career at school, 275. 279-282. Character of the instruction in the lowest form when witness was in it. 276-278 Good position attained by witness during his car^er at Oxford, 281 Mueh better suc- cess of witness's brothers than of himself at Uugby, through tlieir having been better grounded before entering the school; success also of their subsequent careers, 282-284. 294-29(3 Illustration in witness's case or' the inexpediency of a competitive examina- tion of boys of 12 or 14 years of age for exhibitions at Rugby, 282. 285-287. Decided objection to the proposal lor ?. limited number of competitive exhibitions of 40 /. and tio /. a year, in beu of the present system of foundationers, 285-293 Dis- advantaire of the poor man as compared with the rich under the proposed plan of compe- titive exhibitions, 287. 291 Circumstance of four foundationers being now educated at about the same cost as is proposed for one 60/. exhibition, 287-290. 297, 298 Absence of limit to the number of foundationers who may be in the school, 292, 293 Neither witness nor his brothers could have had the benefit of education at Rugby but for the foundation, 295. JtEsiDEyrs OR Sojourners : 1 . Hari'ow. 2. Rugby. 1. Harrow: Beneficial operations of the sojourners and of the permanent residents as regards society at Harrow, and also as regards the masters and the school, C'«n«i«g/;a7H 403-414. 420-422 Witness is the widow of a Chancery barrister, and has made Harrow her residence expressly for the purpose of availing herself of the privileges of the foundation of the school for the education of her boys, Prior ,384-598 Some of the school boys occasionally come to witness's house, ih. 612 Very beneficial etlisct produced in various ways by the residence of persons who take advantage of the (bundation, Lang 622-624 Valuable effect of the residence of parents of home-boaiders and founda- tioners, Joyce 699 Witness, who is a bairister-at-law, went to IJurrow to reside in order partly to obtain the benefits of the school lor his children, Miller 836-840. Difficulty in stating the proportion of sojourners to permanent residents, Butler 1182- 1185 Absence of any moral claim on the part ol sojourners to the benefits of John Lyon's foundation, ib. 1238. 12^2-1244 further statement as to the temporary resi- dents or sojourners having no equitable claim to the benefits of the foundation, ib. 1283, 1284. •2. Rugby: Very rapid increase of sojourners or residents during the present century; great benefit conferred by these upon the town, Bloxam 55-58. 63-69 It is probable that 50 per cent, of the sojourners C(jntinue to reside in Rugby permanently, ib. 63, 64 The parents of many of the foundationers are permanent residents ; doubt as to the number of mere sojourners, Cdldecott 142-144. 154-160. 163, 1(14 Increasing number of permanent residents who settle at Kugby for the sake of educating their childien, ib. 1 60. Different classes of persons who have come to lluohy to reside, and who send their children to the school; ihev are n)o>tly people of n speciable families, but of limit-'d means, L'aldecott 188-191 Numerous instances of persons ciuitinuing to reside after the completion of their children's education, ib. 191 There are thirteen widows who have educated their families still remaining in Rugby, ib. Advantage of the system of 481. T T residents RES RUG Report, 1 865 — continued. Residents or Sojourners continued. 2. livghy' — continued. residents or sojourners as givino; a good tone to society in Rui;by, and as acting bene- ficially upon the schoolj Caldecott 19-2. Witness has had scvlii sons educated at E-ugby, and went to reside there for tlie ex- press purpi.se of such education; is now a permanent resident. Sale 299-310 The residents who settle at Rugby for the sake of their children's education are a very valuable class of society, and are beneficial to the place and to the school, ih. 312, 313. 318, 319. Statement shuwin:,' that the great majority of the families availing themselves of the foundation do not become permanent residents at Rugby, Teinple 861 Considerations as to the case of the sojourners and the facilities now possessed by them, whether rich or poor, of sending their children on the foundation, ib. 864 Data for the conclusion geneially that the privileges of the sojourneis should be entirely abolished, and should be transferred to boys elected on open competition, ib. Doubt as to many persons of wealth coming to reside at Rugby for the benefits of the foundation, Trnrp/e 910-918 Instead of fifty per cent, of the sojourners remaining permanently at Rugby, th ise who remain are not ten per cent., ib. 916 Probability of there being an increase in the number of wealthier >ojourners under witness's scheme, ib. 919. 920 Waste of the school revenues in keeping up the system of sojourners, ib. 9G0, 9'21 Probiibility of a large increase in the number of sojouineis if the present system be continued, i6. 1042-104.5. See also Harroiv School. Rugby School. Riding or Diiving to School (Harrow). See Harrow School, 6. Rugby School.- 1. Statements in Defence of the Foumlalion System. 2. Intention of the Founder of the School as regards Local Education. 3. Objections to a Separate and Lower School, and to the Scheme of Dr. Temple on this score. 4. Rep'-esenlalion by Dr. Temple as to the necessity of some change of Si/stem. 6. Statement by Dr. Temple explanatory of his Scheme. 6. Report by Dr. Temple upon the Proposah of the Public School Com- missioners. 7. Absence of Lower Forms in the present School. 8. Other particulars generally. 1. Statements in Defence of the Foundation System: Argument of counsel, on the part of the inhabitants of Rugby, against certain clauses in the Bill, more especially against tiie proposition for abolishing the foundation system, pp. 27-43. Witness was born at Rugby, and was one of six brothers who went to Rugby School at a very early age, Blo.cam 1,2. 8-10 Witness and his brother were exceedingly well grounded ai Rugby, ib. 2 The lather of witness was a master of the school for forty years, and witne>s has been connected »ith the school by family ties for eighty-five successive years, ib. 2-7 Two of witness's brothers, who were foundationers, gained fellowships at Oxford, ib. 2 Absence of jealousy between the foundationers and non- foundationers, ib. 1.^. Probability of Rugliy being converted into a manufacturing town if the present good feeling Imtween the town and the scliool were destroyed, lUoxam 53. 74 Opposition to the Rill on the i)art not only of the building interest, as being benefited by the increase of residents, but by the inhabitants generally, ib. 6], 62. 72 Anticipated cessation of the interest now felt in the school i)y the inhabiiants if the foundation were abolished, ib. 72-Si Useful character of the early education received by witness at the school, ib. 88, 8g Several uistances of young nun from the school having distinguished them- selves at the universities whose parents could not have sent, them to the school but for the facilities under the existing system, 90, 91. Witness, who is rector of St. Paul's, Covent Garden, was educated at Rugby as a foundatioiu'i', Oaldey 93, 94 Went to Rugby in 1845, wdu'n about tliirieen years old, and remaini'd there untd 1851, ib. 95-99 Witness's motlx r was the widow of au officer in the army, and, in order to give witness the best possible education, went to reside at Rugby, in order to place him on the foundation, 77>i. 96 After leaving f?ut;by, witness went to Oxford, where he took certain prizes, his university career liavmg been greatly aided by his training at Kngby, and his having been a foundationer there, ib. 100- 102. 118, 119 Large proportion of fountlatium rs in witness's time who were the children of gcmtlc parents in limited circmnsiances, //(. 103-107 Absence of invidious distinction between the foundatiuiiers and non-loumlationers, ib. 120, 121. Wellness resides near Rugby ; is a magistrate of the county, and is well conversant with the local feeling on the S'lhject of Rugby Sc-hool and the changes proposed, Caldecott 124-12(3. RUGBY SCHOOL. 3.51 Report, 18G5 — continued. Bug BY School— couunuud. 1. Statements in Defence of l.lic i'ouiidalioii. System — continued. i24-!2(). 137 Was ccluealed at llugby on the foundation; iias ^ix uncles and four brothers also educated as fburidationers, Culdecott 127-1:31 Went froni Rugby to Haileybuiy, and thence 10 India, ?7>i. 132-134 Entire absence of any jeulousy between foundationers :ind non-foundationers, cither fifty vtars ago or at the present time, ib. i;57- I40 Calculation that forty-two fiundationers are tlir sons of|)(ii|)le to whom the foun- dation is a real charity, and who could not alford to pay for education undu'r the scheme of Dr. 'J'euipie, U>. 141. 14S-150. Information relative to tiie value or rental of the houses occupied by the parents of the foundationers, Culdecott 145-147 With regard to the interest of builders in opposing the Bill, there is a wholesale o|)position on ihc part of all classes, lb. i(ji, i6-2 Considerable peric d for which wimess's family have been selth d at Rugby, his great grandfather and grandfather having been educated at the school, ib. 165-167. Witne>s is head master at King Edward's School at Bury, and is a Fellow and Tutor of Christ's College, Cambridge, WrutbUno 193 Was born at Rugby and .vas with four brothers educated at the school. //;. 194-197 Entered the school on the foundation in 1829 when seven years old, and was e.vceedinglv well lirounded ; the boys in I he lower school were, at that period, very will taught, ib. 198-203. 207-211 It is probable that witness would not have gone to the University but for the education of nis brothers as foundationers, ib. 204-206 Absence of social distinction in the school between foundationers and non-toundatioiiers in witness's time, ib. 212. Witness who is barrister-at-law, is eldest son of Sir George 11 unsay of Banii', and was educated at Rugby on the foundation, Ramsay 272-274 Limited means of witness's father when the edut-atiou of witness and two brotiiers had to be provided for ; advantage in this contingency of the facilities oll'ered l)y the foundation at Rugby, ib. 275 Very imperfect manner m which witness had been grounded before L:;oing to Ru^by at the age of twelve ; consequent disadvantaiie under which he labourtd tiiroughout his subseiiueat career at school, ih. 275. 279-282 Good position atiained by witness during his career at Oxford, ib. 281 Neither witness nor his brothers could have hatl the benefit of education at Kugby but (or the foundation, ib. 295. All of witness's sons have done exceedin'j|y well since leaving Rugby, Sale •,^ii Considerable value attached to the privilege of residents in regard to the tbundation, ib. 3''7- Statement showing the good positions obtained by fouudationeis at the universities,. App. 251. 2. Intention of the Founder of the School as regards Local Education : Conclusion as to the founder of the school, Mr. Lawrence SiierifF, having had in con- templation both the prosperity of his native town and the education of the children of the town, Bloxam 59, 60. 82-87 Grounds for concludinn- that the object of the founder of tlie school was not the instruction of the poor children of Rugby, Caldecott 185-187 Opinion as to the clear right of the inhaljifanls of llugbv to free education of their sons at Kugby school, Edmunds 249, 250 -Witness looks u|ion such education as the birth-right of his sons, ib. 250 Opinion that the privilege is part of the inheri- tance of witness's children and that they have as valid a title to it as to any property he may leave them, Sale 317, 319. Grounds for the conclusion that the promotion of education was the jjriniary object of the founder of Rugby school, and that benefit to the locality was a secondary consnlera- tion, Temple 061 Limuation at first as to the parishes coming uiidi r the benefits of the foundation; extension subsequently, ib. Further staiement as to the object of the original founder not having had a local tendency, ib. 958-961 — - — Repetition of the staiement as to the primary object of the founder having been to advance general educa- tion, ib. 988-993. 3. Objections to a Separate and Lower School, and to the Scheme of Dr. Temple on this Scu7-e : Disapproval of the gratuitous education being abolished in favour of a sy>tein uhereby the charge tor education sliould be limit, d to the amount now paid by the home boarders, facilities being at the same time provided for going to the universities, Bloxam 49-54 Deciiled objection to the proposal f the local apposition to the Bdl if it were kn^)vvn that under the present svsieui the school must suffer as compared with Eton, ii,c.,ib. Conviction of witness that the school cannot long go on as at present; hence his recommendation that the foundation be thrown open to the whole of England, ib. 5_ Statement by Dr. Temple, explanatory of his Scheme : Belief that the poor foundations would be better provided for than at present, under the scheme proposed by witness. Temple 8()i Latin, French, and mathematics should be tauoht in the proposed school, ib. Proposed connection of the new school with the great school bv a number of exiiibitions carrying deserving boys from one to the other, 26. Probability of the poorer gentry using the proposed school and of their sons obtaining a large proportion of the exhibitions, 26.861.864 Witness contem- plates one exbibitiori tverv vear, and that they should be tenable for seven years ; this however is a question of detail, lb. S61-864 Proposition for transferring the privi- leges of the residents or sojourners to boys eiected on an open competiiion, ib. 8(34. Disapproval of a certain number of open exhibitions or scholarships for the town in addition to a certain number for all England, Temple 908. 921 liducation at present of about seventy foundations lor about 1,200/. a year spent by the trustees, in lieu of which witness pro|)Oses that there be twenty scholarships tenaljle for five years each, ib. 92,5-936 Coiitemiilated expenditure by the trustees of 600/. a year on the lower or sepaiate school, in which an excellent education would be provided for the sons of Iradesmeu, ib. 937-941- 951-955 Reasons for preferring that the proposed school should be quite separate from the existing school instead of attiched to it, 7/;. 942-950. 955-957 Earlier age and less preparation contemplated m the case of boys coming to the separate school than to the great school, ih. 962. Objecti(m to the people of Rugbv having the option of removing their sons as founda- tioners from the lower school 10 the upper school, unless they are prepared to pay for them as non-foMndationaries, Temple 963-977 Consideration paid under witness's scheme to the local prefeiences of tlie founder, ib. 994-1007. 1021-1041 Proposal in regard to the irxliibitions for the lower school, further adverted to, jT/. 996-1003. 1007 The proposed separate school would be under witness's sii|)ervision ; additional labour to be imposed on him tliereby, ib. 1021, 102a. 1029-1032 The buildings might be provitied by the trustees for about 3,000/. ib. 1023-1026 The masters would be appoinied by witness as in the great school, ih. 1027, 1028 Explanation that the lower school would he in the interests of the people of Rugby, and \\ould be no a'l vantage to the great school, ih. 1 037-1 041. 6. Report by Dr. Temple upon the Proposals of the Public School Commissioners : Considerations submitted in report of Dr. Temple with reference to the recommenda- tions of the Public ScIhioI Commissioners upon the subject of the constitution of the trustees of Rugby school and then' relation to the head master, A])p. 293, 294. Considerations submitted In report of Dr. Temple with reference to the proposal of tiie Public Sch'inl Commissioners for abolishing the |irivileges of the fouiidati(Uieis ; inodi- ficaii'in rallur than abolition suggest' il bv Dr, Temple, .ipp. 299, 300. Suggestions in report of Dr. Temple to the tiustees iip>>u the subject of the scholarships and exhibitions tenable at the school, Ap/i. 301, 302. Propcjsai by Dr. 'I'emple that the Ibundalion of exhibitions he postpmied and that twenty scholarslii|is be founded, ten of 60/. and ten of 40/., tenable for live years, and open to boys under fourteen, App. 301. Consid rations RUG S yV r 333 Report, 1865 — continued. Rugby Sc hoo /.—con tinned. (). Report lnj Dr. Trmp/e, Sec. — continued. Considerations submitted in report of Dr. Temple upon the subject of the exhibitions at tlie Universities ; iinu'iidnieiit simge^ted upon the leconimendation^ of the Pubhc School Commissioners in tiiis respect, Ajijj. ■,]02. Suggestion by Dr. Temple that ii sepurate school be established, to be called the Lower School of Lawrence feheriH, App. i^oo The proposed school siiould admit, free of ■charge for education, fifty boys from liuiiby and Brownsover, and if more than fifty applied for admission, t\v best tifty should i)e selected by competitive exandnation, ib. 7. Absence of Loner Forms in the present School : Abandonment practically of the lower class of education contemplated by the founder for mere children, Blo.vam 32, 33 Very smidl number of boys now in the lower school, as compaied with the number in former years, Caldecott 183, 184. Explanation that the absence of lower forms in Rugby school for very ycnmg boys is owing, not to any act of tiie school, but to tlie fact of parents not seiuiiiig their boys at an early age, Temple 864-880 Adequate provision for the teaching of younger boys if they were sent to the school, ib. ses in the interests of Shrewsbury School, Kciineihj ip,2S, 13-29 Expediency of sornu iei5, 1336 Appro\al of the proposal in the Bill on the subject of open sdiolarships in the school, ib. 1345 lilenient in the iioveining body in favour of giving the school a more national characier, and of making Tt beneficial to tlie public at iarue, ib. 1365, 1366. 1370-1372. 1381. Approval of the abolition, as a matter of principle, of the privilege of bu;ges-;es as to free education in the scliooi ; apprehension however that a very angry feeling would be created in the town by such abolition, Keiniedg 1373-1375. 1394-1427 Grounds for concluding that luider the original fonndailon, and the diH'erent charturs, the privilege of gratuitous ehutation was not intended tu be j)'.'ovided for any class, //;. I39(i-142G Arrangement in former times between Mr. Ashion, on the part of the Crown, and the municipality, which resulted in the latter obtaining certain privileges for the burgesses, ib. 1400. 1409-141,5. Absence of injury to tlie school, or of pressure upon the funds, throuL;h tiie gratuitous education now ^iven, Kennedy 141 7-1420. 1427 The head muster has no private interest in the abolition of the bursiesses' privileges, ib. 1417 There are about twenty- three or twenty-four boys now enjnyiiig a gratuitous education, ib. 1418 Proijuble advantage if there were an executive connnission, which should confer with the governing body as to the required reforms, ib. 14G4. 4. Governing Bddy: Suggestion that some representation of Shrewsbury ccrporation, and of the universities, be imported inio the governing body of the scht)ol, Kennedy I3'i8 Suggestion also tiiat three governors niiiiht be appointed iiy tiia corporation, ib. 1349. 1353-13.')9- 13^7- 1369. 1394 Very fair representation of the town on the present governing body, ib. 1350. 1355. Explanalion that witness is not desirous for any change in the governing body if tiie alterations contemplated by him are made ; apprehension that the present body is not likely to carry out the required changes, Kennedy 1351. 1360-1372. 137G-13S4 Approval of a nominee from Cliristchuich, and of one from St. John's College, on the governing body, ii. 1437. 5. School Buildings : Expediency of the governing body being empowered and required to take immediate steps towards rebuilding the houses and chapel of the school, Kennedy 1328 Consi- derations as to the mode in which the reliuilcling of the houses and chapel may best be provided for; funds available for the purpose, ib. 1474-1481. 6. Valuation of Studies : Objection to the valuation of the studies being vesied in the new governing; body instead of in the head niaster; ap])roval however of the subjects of study being prescribed by the governing body, Kennedy 1337. 13*^5-1 394- 7. Character of the Education : Strong feeling in Shrewsbury that a more commercial kind of school should be estab- lished, Buteson 1298 Object of Mr. Ashtoii, the first master of the school, and virtually the founder, that the alliance with St. John's College should operate as a check upon inferior education in the school, ib. 1299. Classical character of the school ; French is however compulsory, and witness would approve of the inirodiction of German an 1 Italian, Kennedy. 1449-1459 Particulars relative to the non-collegiate class established by witness, and subsequently withdra.vn in consequence of the repoit ol the Ccmimissioners ; regrei; expressed at its discontinuance, ib. 1465-1471. 8. Representation by Counsel on the part of St. John\s College, Cambridge : Argumc't on the part of St. John's College, Cambridge, aaaiiist the alterations pro- posed by the Bill in regard to the appointment of the master of Shrewsbury School, and the throwing open of six exhibitions now confined to the college,/?/^. 223-23S. 9. Representations on the part of the Burgesses: Argument of counsel for the burgesses of Shrewsbury, in opposition to the provisions in the Bill interfering with tlieir privileijes, as well as to the provisions for altering the constitution of the governing body, kc, pp. 258-272. 481. T T 4 336 S H R T E M Report, 1865 — continued. ShrehSBURY ScHOOi— continued. 10. Representations on the part of Magdalen Colle(/e, Camhridtje : Opposition on the part of Maodalen Collec;e, Cambiidge, to the jirovi^ions in the Bill on the subject of disseveiing the conneciion betwem the college and Shrewsbury school in regard to the Milliugton scliolarships, p^. 27-2-281. 6'ee also Caresioell Eihlhitions. JIar/dalen College, Cambridge. Physical Science. Soames, Daniel JVilisldre. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is chairman of the Hendon Board of Guardians, and a Commissioner of Income Tax : was at Harrow School as a foreigner, 502-506 Absence of social distinction in witness's lime between foreigners and fouiidatiiiners, 507 Several instances of boys firnierly attending tl)e school from Pinner, Harrow Weald, kc, ",08-511. 523-525 Impression that there were no tradesmen's sons at the school when witne-s was there about thirty-five years ago ; doubt as to any hindrances iiaving been placed in their way, 512-520 Effect of the puiely classical education, and of the necessity of previous traming in tending to preclude tradesmen's sons from entering the school at an early age, 520. Evidence in explanation and disapproval of the system of " bills," as carried out by Dr. Vaughan and Dr. Butler, on account of the practical exclusion thereby from the school of all boys who do not reside within a very short distance, 521-527. 534-543 Prohibition by the late and present master ni regard to bovs riding or driving to school, 5-7-533 Objection on the part of t!ie local tradesmen and farmers to the separate school proposed by Dr. Butler, as introducing an isolation between their boys and those of higher rank, 545. Desire of the inhabitants for lower classes la the existing school as far preferable to a separate and lower school, 546 Impediment to the boys rising from the present English form to the upper «cliO(il, 54b, 547 Instance of a parent living within a mile and a-half of the school setiding iiis boy to Merchant Taylor's School, the distance from Harrow School precluding attendance there under the present regulations, 548-550. Sojotirners (Rugby and Harrow). See Residents or Sojourners. Studies (Pid/lic Schools). Objection to any interference on the part of a central authority, with a view to uniforiii or simdur studies in the diti'erent public schools. Temple IO92, 10G)3 Consideration of the question ao to the public schools conipriing a modern com--e of study in addition to the classical course : advantage thereof in some respects, Butler I 189-1194. Suggestions in report of Di'. Temple upon the recommendations of the Public School Comiuissioners in regard to the course ot study in Rugby School, App. 294. Communications submitted to the Committee from several eminent authorities in regard to the introduction of physical science as part uf the course of studies in the public schools, App. 30G-31 1. Temple, The Rev. Frederick, n.D. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has been head master of Kuoby school since the beginning of 1858; 856,857 Grounds for the conclusion that the promotion of education was the primary object of the founder of Rugby school, and that benefit to the locality was a secondary consideration, 861 Limitation at first as to the parishes coniing undi-r the benetits of the foundation ; extension subse- quently, i/y. Absence of distinction between permanent and temporary residents at liui;by, ib. Statement shuwing that the great majority of the families availing them- selves of the foundation, do not become permanent residents, ib. Seiious prejudice to the school in consequence of the openin;; of other foundations, 861 Circumstance of all the cleverest buys put down upon witiK'ss's list for Rugby, being taken (jff by the competitive examinations and sent to Eton or Wincid preferences of the founder, 994-1007. 1021-1041 Proposal in regard to the exhibi- tions for the lower school further adverted to, 996-1003. 1007 Srveral objections to providing in the existing school lower forms and a different system of education adapted to the requirements of tradesmen, 1008-1020. 1034-1036. The proposed separate school would be under witness's supervision; additional labour to be imposed on him thereby, 1021, 1022. 1029-1032 The buildings mitiht be pro- vided by the trustees for about 3,000/. ; 1023-1026 The masters would be appointed by witness, as in the great school, 1027, 1028 Explanation that the lower school would be in the interests of the people of Rugby, and would be no advantage to the great school, 1037-1041 Probability of a large increase in the number of sojourners if the present system be continued, 1042-1045. 481. U u Non-interference T E M T R A Report, 1865 — continued. Temple, The Rev. Frederick, D. D. (Analysis of liis Evidence) — continued. Non-interference of the trustees with tiie head master either in the choice of master or the (iirdction of the studies; approval thereof, 1049-10,51. 105^-1065 Explanation as to the instruction given in physical science, and the attention paid generally to this branch of education, 10.52. 1066-1091 Disapproval of any change in the governing body, or of the addition of any trustees as proposed in the Bill, 1053-1065 Objec- tion to any interference on tiie part of a central authority, with a view to uniform or similar studies in the diffeient public schools, 1092, 1093. Suireestion as regards clause 9 of the Rill, that there should be equal power to deal with "the salary of the iiead master as of the other niifters, 1094-1096 Effect of the Bill rather to diminish the powers r>f the governing body and to increase those of the head master, 1097, 1098 Objection to the propos:d in the Bill that the head master should have power to dismiss certain of the masters whom at prest nt he can only suspend, 1098-1 102 Approval of the present relative powers of the trustees and head master, 1103 Disapproval of the limitation under clause 26, in regard to the recom- mendation of the Public School Commissioners beini: necessary before the trustees can expend upon buildings, 1104-1106. 1112-1119. Objection to the proposal in the Bill in regard to the governing bodies of the school interfering with rtference to the chapel services, 1107, 1108 Ad^antaye in leaving the appointment of masters entirely to the head masters, without any reference to candi- dates educated in the particular school where the vacancy is sought for, iiog-nn Improvement if the trustees of Rugby School could make building improvements with- out appeal to the Court of Chancery, 1118-1121 Disapproval ot any external inter- ference in rtgard to the teaching of physical science in the scliools, 1 122-1124. Temple, Dr. Report by Dr. Temple, for tiie year 1863-64, to the trustees of Rugby School, comprising suggestions in detail upon the subject of ihe several recommendations in the Report of the Public School Commissioners, App, 293-304. Tradesmen's Sons: 1. Harrow. 2. Rugby. 1 . Harrow : Circumstance of there not havinij been any tradesmen's sons among tlie foundationers at Harrow for the last eighteen yea.TS,Cun7iingham ^21^— — Belief that tlie cause of tradesmen not taking advantage of the foundation is that there are not classes low enough, or com- mencing at asuliicientiy early age, 26. 4^6-439. 450-454 Dissatisfaction of the trades- men with the English form, as they conceive they have a right to send iheir children on the foundation of the school, ib. 430. 433-437. 447 Statement in favour of three junior forms in Harrow School, which might comprise about fifty foundationers, sons of tradesmen, ib. 430-442. 480-483. Impression that there were no tradesmen's sons at the school when witness was there about thirty-five years ago; doubt as to any hindrances having been placed in their way, Soawes 512-520 Effect of the purely classical education, and of the necessity of j)revious training, in tending to preclude tradesmen's sons from entering the school at an early age, ib. 520 Objection on the part of the local tradesmen and farmers to the separate school proposed by Dr. Builer, as introducing an isolation between their boys and those of a higher rank. ib. 545. Decided objection to Dr. Butler's scheme by the tradesmen, inasmuch as the scheme deprives them entirely of a right which they greatly value, Joyce 641 Belief that up to a certa n age boys may saiislactorily be educated together in the same school, though after such age some go into commercial pursuits and some go uu to the universities, ib. 694-697. 706-708. Objection of the farmers and tradespeople to send their children to the school through fear of their being ill-treated by the other boys, R. Chapman, 789. 796-799 Desire of the tradesmen and farmers to avail themselves of the benefits of the foundation and to give a classical edu'^ation to their children, lb, 789-799. Undoubted right of witness to the benefit of the foundation for his children; he protests against de|irivatif>ii of such right, IVinkley 807-813 Statement as to witness having spoken to Dr. Butler about sending one of his boys to the school, and as to Dr. Butler having advised him not to do so, ib. 809-815 Great vahip attached by witness to a superior education for his children, so that he would readily sacrilice his business if the fact of his being a tradesman is to debar him of the privileges of the Harrow foundation, ib. 810-814. Witness, who is a tradesman at Harrow, is strongly opposed to Dr. Butler's scheme, J. Chapman H2!^-ti2() Explanation as to witness not having availed himself of the advantage of Join Lyon's foundation for his son ; backwardness in this respect on the part of the Harrow tradesmen, ib. 829-835 Opiuion that there has been discourage- ment ill icgard to sons of iradespeoplt entering the school, ib. 831. Earnest TRA TYN 339 Report, 1 865 — continued. Tradesmen's Sons — continued. 1. Harrow — continued. Earnest desire of witness that tlie (luestion of the foundation should be so settled as to confer a real and peiinanent boon upon the tradesmen and fiirmers of Harrow, Butler 1139 Practical obstacles to the sons of tradesmen and (armers receiving in Harrow School the particular training which they require, ib. 1139-1141 Removal generally of tradesmen's sons from education at about the age when other boys come to Harrow, ib. 1139-1141 Social difficulty in regard to the sons of tradesmen and farmers in the lower school mixing with the other boys, ib. 1141, 1142 Circumstance of the trades- men and farmers not valuing the education given in the upper school, ih. 1 162. Objection to meeting the views of the trading and farming class at Harrow by giving a more elementary training in the great sciiool and omitting Latin and Greek in some of the forms, i?«H4i4itiiiniHi4ijt4fiiittiiijuiiu4iufHi414A< '"■'■" '^O^'"""'""!' .;,■')