LIBRARY OF THE University of California. Class V-^v~" < REPORT FBOM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND); TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. OFTHE UNIVERS/TY '■ OF r/FOnf>' Ordered, by The House of Commonsj to be Printed, 24 Juli/ 1885. LONDON: PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON, PHINTEKS TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. To be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from any of the following Agents, viz., Messrs. Hansard, 13, Great Queen-street, W.C., and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster ; Messrs Eyee and Spottiswoode, East Harding-street, Fleet-street, and Sale Office, House of Lords ; Slessrs. Adam and Charles Black, of Edinburgh ; Messrs. Alex.vndek Tiiom and Co., or Messrs. Hodges, Figgis, and Co., of Dublin. 288. [ ii ] ^^'X^i Ordered, — [Tuesdai/, lOth March 1885 j : — That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Natural Resources and the Present Condition of Manufacturing and Productive Industries in Ireland, and to consider and report by what means those natural resources may be more fully developed, and how those industries may be encouraged and extended. Ordered, — [ Thursday, ZQth April 1885] : — That the Committee consist of Twenty-five Members. Committee nominated of — Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. William Henry Smith. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Woodall. Colonel King Harman. Dr. Lyons. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. "Whitworth. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Thomas Dickson, Colonel Nolan. Mr. Cropper, Mr. Parnell. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Armitstead. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Leake. Mr. Jackson. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Molloy. Sir Eardley Wilmot. Mr. Kenny. That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. REPORT ^ PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE - MINUTES OF EVIDENCE APPENDIX - p. Ill - p. iy - P- 1 - p. 713 C iii ] E E P R T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Natural Re- sources, and the Present Condition of Manufacturing and Pkoductive Industries in Ireland, and to consider and report l)y what means those Natural Resources may be more fully developed, and how those Industries may be encouraged and extended ; Have agreed to the following REPORT :— That the Committee, not having been able, since their appointment, to take sufficient Evidence to enable them to agree upon specific recommendations, agree to report the Evidence to the House, and recommend that a Committee be appointed in the next Session of Parliament to continue the Inquiry. 24 Juli/ 1885. 'i88. a 2 210352 IV PROCEEDINGS OF THE' PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITT'EE. Monday, 4th May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Kathbone. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Sir Eardley Wilmot. Mr. Cropper. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr- Sydney Buxton. Mr. Armitstead. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Ewart. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. William Henry Smith. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Woodall. Sir Eabdley Wilmot was called to the Chair. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, 7th May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Armitstead. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr, Sydney Buxton. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Sexton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Corry. Mr. William Henry Smith. Mr. Cropper, Colonel Nolan. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Ewart. Captain Aylmer, Colonel King-Harman, Mr, Jackson, Dr. pyUliam. Kirhy Hullwan was examined. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Monday, llth May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin M'Carthy, Mr. Kenny, Mr. Sydney Buxton, Mr, Cropper, Mr. Sexton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Corry. Mr. Leake. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Jackson. Mr, Rathbone. Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. Molloy. Mr, Whitworth, Dr, William Kirby Sullivan was further examined. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Two o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). Thursday, \Ath May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT I Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Justin McCarthy. Mr. Armitstead. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Leake. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Cropper. Dr. William Kirhy Sullivan re-callecl, and further examined. Mr. Rathbone. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Corry. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Jackson. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Monday, I8th May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sir Eardlet "Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sexton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Ewart: Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. William Henry Smith. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Cropper. Professor Edward Hull, p.r.s., was examined. Mr. Kenny. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Corry. Mr. Armitstead. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Molloy. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, 2\st May 1885. MEMBERS present: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Armitstead. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Jackson. Professor Edward Hull, F.R.s., was further examined. Mr. Henry Parkinson was examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Twelve o'clock. 288. a3 ■n PROCEEDINGS OF THE Friday, 22nd May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT:. Sir Eakdlet Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin McCarthy. Mr. MoUoy. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Jackson. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Henry Parkinson was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Alderman R. Edmond was examined. {Adjourned till Friday, 5tli June, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, bth June .188.5. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardlet Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Justin McCarthy. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Rathbone. Sir Robert Kane was examined. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Cropper. Mr. MoUoy. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Monday, 8th June 183.: MEMBERS PRESENT; Sir Eardlet Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Molloy. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Sir Robert Kane was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. Kenny. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Kathbone. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Corry. Mr. Armitstead. Mr. Leake. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE OF INI»USTEIES (iEELAND). Vll Thursday, 1 1 th June 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardlet Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Whitworth. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Rathbone. Sir Robert Kane was re-oalled, and further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, \2th June 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Leake. Mr. John William Lane was examined. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Armitstead. Colonel Nolan. [Ajdjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Saturday, l^th June 1885. MEMBERS present : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. John William Lane re-called, and further exartiined. Sir George Colthurst was examined. [Adjourned at Six of the clock till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. 288. a4 Vlll PROCEECINGS OP THE "Monday, XhtJi June 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley "Wilmot in the Chair. Dr, Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Rathbone. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Justin M'Cartliy. Mr. Leake. Mr. Cropper. Daniel C. B. Howitz was examined. Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Whitworth. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Corry. Mr. Kenny. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Molloy. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, \%th June 1883. members present : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Molloy. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Rathbone. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Armitstead. Dr. Daniel C. B. Hoioitz was re-called, and further examined. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Monday, 22nd June 1885. MEMBERS i>RESENT: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons, Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Ewart. Sir Hervey Bruce, Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Kathbone. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Jackson. Mr. Corry. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Kennv. Motion made, and Question put, That Mr. Hartland and Colonel Michael, C.B., be summoned to give evidence on the practical working of Forestry and its financial success —(Dr. Lyons). — The Committee divided : Ayes, 3. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Woodall. Colonel J. O'Hara was examined. Noes, 7. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Ewart. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sexton. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iEELAND). IX Tuesday, 2Srd June 1885. MEMBERS present: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Cropper. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Corry. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Farnell. Mr. Armitstead. Captain Aylmer. Sir Hervey Bruce. Colonel J. Oi'Hara was re-called, and further examined. [Adjourned till Tliursday next, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, 2bth June 1885. MEMBERS present: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. AVoodall. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Corry. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Colonel Nolan. Mr. W. H. Keating was examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 26th June 1885. members present : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Leake. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Corry. Colonel Nolan. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. W. H. Keating was further examined. [Adjoui-ned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. 288. PEOCEKDIN6S OF THE Monday, 29fA June 1885. MEMBERS PBESENT : Sir Eabdlet Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. ■ Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Woodall. Mr. Kenny. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. "Whitworth. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Professor Galloway, Mr. Samuel Macrory, and Mr. G. H. Kinahan were examined. [Adjourned till Wednesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Wednesday, \st July 1885. MEMBERS present: Sir Eabdley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Leake. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Jackson. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Kenny. Mr. G. H. Kinahan was re-called, and further examined. I Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, 2nd July 1885. members present : Sir Eabdley Wilmot in the Chair. Sir Hervey Bruce. Dr. Lyons. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Leake. Colonel King-Harman, Mr. Kenny. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. G. H. Kinahan re-called, and further examined. Professor Hartley was examined. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). Zl Monday, 6th July 1885. MElftBBKS PRESENT : Sir Eabdley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson LIoyA Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Trevelyan. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Kenny. Colonel King-Harman. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Leake. Professor Hartley was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Daniel Devlin was examined. [Adjourned till Wednesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Wednesday, 8th July 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Leake. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Woodall. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Kenny. Captain Aylmer. Colonel Nolan. The Rev. PV. Glenny Crory, Mr. Edward M'Makon (a Member of the House), and Mr. William Meagher (a Member of the House), were examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Thursday, 9th July 1885. MEMBERS present: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Leake. Mr. Sexton. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Corry. Sir Ralph Cusack was examined. Mr. Cropper. Sir Hervey Bruce. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Kenny. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. 288. b2 Xll PROCEEDINGS OF THE Monday, I3th Julj/ 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Cropper. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Jo/m Greeiihill was examined. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Leake. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. iVJoUoy. [Adjourned till Wednesday next, at Twelve o'clock. fVednesday, 1 5 th July 1885. members PRESENT: Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Thomas Dicksou. Ml'. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Rathbone. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Pelcr M' Donald Avas examined. Mr. Corry. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Colonel King-Harman. Captain Aylmer. Mr. MolloT.' Mr. Justin M'Carthy. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Eleven o'clock. Thursday, I6th July 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Corry. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. H. J. Cooper, Mr. Thomas Fee, and Mr. George Fiiidlay were examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELAND). Zllt Friday, 17 th July 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Mr, Dr. Lyons. Mr. .Justin McCarthy. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Cropper. Thomas Fee was re-called, and further examined. 11. Tohall and Mr. Charles A. Stannell were examined. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Corry. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney IJuxton. Mr. Sexton. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Monday, 20th July 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Jackson. Mr. Corry. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Whitworth. Mr. Leake. Mr, Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Sir Hervey Bruce. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Cropper. Mr. George Findlay was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Robert H. Reade was examined. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Committee, not having been able, since their appointment, to take sufficient Evidence to enable them to agree upon specific recommendations, agree to report the Evidence to the House, and recommend that a Committee be appointed in the next Session of Parliament to continue the inquiry " — (Mr. Sexton). — To which an Amendment was moved to leave out all the words after the first word " Tliat," in order to add the words, " In reporting the Evidence, and asking for re-appointment of the Committee next Session, the views of the existing Committee on the Evidence already given be stated in a preliminary Report " — (Captain Aylmer). — Question put. That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.— T(je Committee divided: Ayes, 11. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Whitworth. Noes, 5. Captain Aylmer. Sir Sydney Buxton. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Colonel Nolan. Main Question again proposed. — Amendment proposed at the end of the Question, to add the words : " But that the Committee should not separate without expressing their 288. b 3 opinion XIV PKOCEEODINGS OF THE opinion on tlie neceseity of the development of railway communication in Ireland " — (Colonel Nolan), — Question put. That those words be there added. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 4. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Sexton. Noes, 12. Captain Aylraer. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Whitworth, Main Question put. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 12. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Leake. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Whitworth. Noes, 3 . Captain Aylmer. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Colonel King-Harman. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the evidence of no new witness be taken after Thursday next"- — (Mr. T. Dickson). — Amendment proposed, to leave out all the words after the first word " That," in order to add the words " As no result can follow, no further evidence be taken " — (Captain Aylmer) — instead thereof. — Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question. — The Committee divided: Aye.sll. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Colonel King-Harman, Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Whitworth, Main Question put. — The Committee divided: Ayes, 12. Captain Aylmer, Sir Hervey Brnce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Ewart. Colonel King-Harman. Mr, Leake. Mr. Sampson Lloyd, Mr. Molloy, Mr, Rathbone, Noes, 5. Captain Aylmer. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Se.xton. Noes, 3. Dr. Lyons. Colonel Nolan, Mr. Sexton. [Adjourned till Wednesday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON IXDUSTEIES (IRELANd). XV Wednesday, 22nd July 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT : Sir Eardley Wilmot in the Chair. Mr. Thomas Dickson. Mr. Corry. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Cropper. Mr. WoodalL. Mr. Leake. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Sampson X;ht ; and then you have the top which is adapted for litter first, and subsequently for manure. 37. You find, I think, a great many trees, do you not, embedded in the peat ? — Upon the mar- gin of it and upon the eskers, that is tlie islands of gravel which run through what were originally the lakes in which the peat was formed ; tliey are always covered with timber, but not the deep peat. 38. At what depth do you find these trees embedded? — Near the toj), generally. 39. But not at the bottom of the peat? — No; because the central bogs are all moss peats. 40. The trees that those trunks belong to seem to have grown upon the peat? — Upon the margin and the esker.s, and sometimes on the peat itself 41. Finding the trees embedded at a very great depth in the peat, would you draw any inference from that as to the possibility of plant- ing trees upon the surface of the bog? — Many attempts have been made to do that. Anyone going by the Great Southern and Western liail- way will see plantations upon each side growing upon the red bog ; in the centre where the peat is often 40 feet deep where springs still exist in the deepest part, indicating the old lakes in which the peat was formed. There, of course, the trees have never grown. 42. What substance is it generally at the bottom of the bog, marl? — At the bottom it is generally about 18 inches of shell marl, full of the common little sliells that you see in the puddles along the roads ; and then, below that, marly clay and gravel, 30 or 40 feet deep some- times. 43. Has any effort been made to reclaim the bogs in that part of Ireland ? — Here and there there are patches of reclamation where the upper surface of the bog has been taken away, and there cultivation is taking place ; but the greater 0.98. Chairman — continued. part of the bogs are still in a state of nature ; scarcely anything has been done with them. 44. That part of Ireland you speak of has the advantage of good water power, lias it not ; that is to say, water communication ? —Tliat is so. According to tlie Act of 1715, whicli I men- tioned, it was intended that the canals should go right through and serve as drains ; but the canals do not serve as drains where they have been opened ; though, of course, as far as they are through the bogs they do act for the purpose of conveyance. 45. In your opinion, there has not been any great improvement in the canal communication ? — Tiie canal communication of Ireland, I think, contains a whole chapter of the history of Ireland. 46. Is not the canal communication capable of very great improvement at present? — It is, cer- tainly. Except a few of them, like the Laggan and one or two others, they might as well not have existed at all. 47. But still, for the conveyance of agricultural produce the canals are* found to be preferable to the railways? — Yes, I speak rather of the state in which the canals are kept. 48. But even the water communication does not give you what you ought to have for the transport of goods ? — In fact, one of the principal canals is possessed by a railway company ; and though it is not the interest of the railway company to encourage traffic upon the canals, yet as much as 80,000 tons a year go upon that canal. 49. Take one ]>art of your commerce, the fisheries ; have they not been under great disad- vantage by reason of defective communication by means of the railway ? — Most of the fisheries that promise anything. If you were to draw a line from Londonderry to Cork, the country west of that would contain the poorest land, and that is just the part of Ireland where the railways are deficient, where there are neither railways nor tramways. 50. And the charges upon them are high, are they not? — Fish in Ireland is put in the fourth class ; that says enough about it. 51. Does that arise from there being a want of uniform communication ; that is to say, there being so many branch lines in Ireland under different management? — To some extent I think the classification upon the Irish railways is a puzzle to anybody who looks at it; there seems to be no principle upon which the classifica- tion is made. To give you an example, the material which is most important to t!ie rising trade of woollens in Ireland is wool; in England that is second class, but in Ireland it is put upon the same level as if it were made into the finest cloth; it is fourth class. The poplins, and the wool from which they are made, are carried at the same rate, which is a striking illuitration of the total absence of any princinle of classification; worsted yarn, green flax, and flax straw are carried as fourth clas.s, while jute is carried at the third class rate. 52. Would you therefore consider a reform of your railways would be one of the first matters towards the improvement of your industries ? — A 2 Certainly. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. Certainly. I took a very active part many years ago in the movement for tlie amalgamation of the Irish railways, and I have not changed my opinion ; I am even the more strongly im- pressed with the necessity of Irish railway amal- gamation now. 53. That was proposed by the late Lord Mayo? — About that time. 54. You have never ceased to regret that that was not adopted? — I regret it very strongly. I tliink it would have been of very great advantage to the country. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 55. Do you mean under private administration or under Government ? — I think the railways should be managed like the Post Office. Chairman. 56. Do you think the amalgamation ought to be under Government ? — Yes. Mr. Sexton. 57. You think the amalgamation of the rail- ways ought to be on much the same principle as in Belgium ? — Yes, the same as the Belgian lines. Chairman, 58. You think that would be for the benefit of the country ? — In Belgium the Government is in a position to do for the country what the railway companies could not possibly do in Ire- land. I have just mentioned that if you drew a line from Londonderry to Cork all the worst land in the country is to the west of that ; there are few towns, the population is declining, what- ever mineral resources there are in the country are to tlie east of that line; and nevertheless that is the country which has the fewest railways and the heaviest charge in sending its produce to the markets, which all lie upon the east of Ireland. 59. With regard to the particular position of your country, is it not most advantageously situated as being the last place between the two hemispheres; between England and America? — It is a great advantage, no doubt, but it is also a disadvantage to be upon the margin of Europe. 60. You think the little streak of silver sea does away with that advantage ? — I think so. 61. Proceeding to other branches of industry, what have you to tell the Committee respecting the ironstone ; is there much ironstone now im- ported from Leitrim and the north of Ireland? — I am not aware that any ironstone at all is sent from Leitrim. The difficulty of getting it from Leitrim is very great ; it is partially, and to a large extent, due to the cost of sending it. The distance that it has to be conveyed is in the first place considered, and also the fact that in carrying out the Shannon works (which it must always be borne in mind have been more than 120 years in execution), the locks on the canals, indeed on all our Irish canals, have not been made to accord with one another, because the upper lock which would bring the iron ore into the Miildle Sliannon district from Lough Allen, is smaller than the locks upon the canal that would convey the ironstone to Dublin ; there- Chairman — continued. fore, the barge which would cany the full maxi- mum load upon one would not enter the chamber of the lock in the other. 62. But what ironstone you export is princi- pally in stone, is it not ? — All the ironstone from Ireland goes from beds which have been dis- covered in County Antrim. 63. Where does that ironstone go ? — To Scot- land, and also to Barrow-in-Furness and other places. There are two or three varieties of it found together, but it is a very good bed and very thick, and very large quantities of it are being worked there. 64. Why cannot you smelt it in your country ? — It is chiefly a question of fuel. 65. And the want of fuel ? — It is not alto- gether the want of fuel ; there is an abundant and cheap supply of fuel at Lough Allen. 66. Is not the peat made available in some countries for the smelting of iron ? — It is. 67. In Russia, for example, is it not ? — Yes ; and in Austria also. 68. You have no deficiency of the means of smelting iron, have you ? — No ; I have smelted six or eight tons with Irish peat myself, and at the same time we obtained the products of distil- lation in the same furnace. 69. Your example has not been generally fol- lowed, I believe ? — No ; I suppose the difficulty is the want of capital and the want of skill ; the beginning of a new industry always takes a very large amount of capital, and involves great chances of failure. 70. Have you any suggestions to make to the Committee as to tha possibility of introducing more capital into the country for the purpose of developing its industries ? — I am afraid that is one of the questions that would puzzle any one to know how you are to get capital in ; there is plenty of capital in Ireland if it were only applied. 71. As I understand, you do not want the capital ; j ou have plenty of capital yourselves ? — That is so. 72. The banks are full of money, are they not? — I would not say they^are exactly full of money, but they have a fair share of it. 73. AVhen they have it, they send it out of the country, do they not ; it is not used in working up the native manufactures of the country ? — I think a good deal of the difficulty arises from the habits of the people, who having no technical skill do not know what to turn their attention to, 74. WoiUd you put technical instruction in the foreground as a means of developing, and even creating Irish industry ? — I would put it in the foremost ground ; it is the first thing to bedone. 75. I believe there has been a Commission, has there not, appointed, of which Sir Bernhard Samuelson was president, and Mr. Woodall, a very valuable member; they made a progress and went through Ireland, did they not ? — They did. 76. For the purpose of seeing in what condi- tion technical instruction existed, and they made a very valuable report? — Yes, and it only remains now to carry the report out, because we in Ireland have had a very great many reports made upon us ; but my experience is that they are SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELAND). 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. are never carried out ; they are generally for- gotten after a time. Now the great point would be to carry out that admirable report upon tech- nical education. 77. If technical education were more en- couraged, would it not lead more to cottage industries, of which we have so much in our country. Do you know the name of Mrs. Ernest Hart? — Very well. 78. Has she not taken a great deal of pains in encouraging the development of cottage in- dustries in County Galway ? — And in County Donegal. 79. And with great success ? — Certainly. 80. The products of such industries there have found a ready market, have they not, in this country ? — Yes. 81. On account of the way in which the goods have been manufactured, young women have succeeded very well in working up, have they not, all kinds of cottage industry? — Yes. We shall never have Jiny large manufactures save in places like the north-east of Ireland, unless we have first such cottage industries. They are the root out of which great industries spring ; you cannot at one offer make great factories in a district unless there is also cottage labour behind it. Mr. Rathbone. 82. You said just now that you cannot have large manufactories without cottage industries ; I should like to know why you think so? — Because it would take more money than any one could possibly spend as a private speculation to teach a people so deficient in skill and so weaned from industrial ideas. Suppose you were to get up a linen factory, the first thing you would have to do would be to train every single one of the girls that you employed ; no private person can possibly do it at his own expense. People ac- customed to home industries can be trained in one-half of the time that the others would be. 83. In other words, j)eople must have time to study the industries before a capitalist can venture to set up a manufacture ? — Certainly. 84. Now I will ask you why in your opinion those industries that existed a generation ago, or more recently, have been gradually dying out in various parts of Ireland ? — That cliiefly arises from the competition with the British manu- factures, which are brought to the door of every small shopkeeper in the country, and forced, as it were, upon him ; there would be therefore no real practical market for those smaller industries. 85. Why should that be so? Why should not the Irish workpeople, who form a considerable part of our working population in Lancashire, but at lower wages, and on their own ground, where they would rather stay, succeed in under- selling the English manufacturers ? — How could they do it? That is exactly the point that everyone in Ireland would wish to find out, as all the manufactures that are brought to them are cheaper than any that can be made by them. 86. But why ? You have water power, and you have labour : why could not you compete ? — "With regard to the power, I fail to see where we have it. 0.98. Mr. Rathbone- — continued. 87. Have you not very good water-power? — Water-power is the dearest of all powers, unless somebody has already made it for you. If you have a pond or a reservoir ready made upon a river, water-power is cheap ; but then you must bear in mind that you have to bring your mill to the water-power, not the water-power to the mill. A great deal is talked about water-power in Ireland ; but that point is foi'gotten. For my own part, I think the capital expended in pro- viding water-power would be at least as much as double tliat of steam-jjower in the same neigh- bourhood. 88. That of course applies to the establish- ment of new manufactories anywhere ; but my question was rather addressed to the point why the manufactures which have already existed, and which for many years very prosperous, have died out ? — Part of the answer is historical, and part applies to the present. Most of the skilled trades in Ireland 50 years ago, and even when I was a boy, were all in the hands of Protestants, and no Catholic could by any possibility be ad- mitted into the guilds, because there was political power attached to them. Within my own recol- lection three or four trades have actually died out ; and in the Museum of the College of Science in Dublin there is the plant of one of those trades purchased for 15 s. when the last man dis- appeared ; he would not take an apprentice, but went to England. Mr. Leahe. 89. What trade was that ? — Dial-plate making. Mr. Rathbone. 90. Surely the Quakers in those days were most of them Liberals, and not men given to intolerance ; how did they exclude the cotton manufacturers?— Cotton would not have been excluded. As a matter of fact, all the trades that were connected with the country paper, for example, were, curiously enough, in the south of Ireland, entirely in the hands of Catholics when they were outside the town, but not when they were inside the town. 91. Why not inside the town? — Because the tradesmen would not admit the workers into the guild. 92. How comes it that those trades have died out ? —They have died out in the same way as a considerable number of them have died out in Great Britain, A great many of them have gone out because of the want of capital in the first place. I could give the Committee the history of that, because my own family were connected with the trade. My father was, I believe, the first to introduce the paper machine into Ireland. The place was set fire to when I was a young fellow, and I remember the fire distinctly. As a matter of fact, the Irish had too little capital to compete with or outlive the break-up which took place about 1826 and subsequent years. Those who continued it, and existed after that, had very little capital or skill; and when the duty was taken off and the Belgian and other foreign papers came in, the weak went to the wall, and the majority of the Irish paper-makers being weak, the greater part went to the wall. 93. 1 want to understand why with cheap labour and cheap capital, the same should not ^ 3 take MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Rathbone — continued. take place there as in England ; that is to say, supposing the men borrowed the capital as they did in England ; why did not that take place in Ireland as well as in England? — One can per- fectly well understand that an English manu- facturer should ask such a question ; but indus- tries do not grow out of the soil, as it were, in a country in the position that Ireland is. 94. That I perfectly understand? — But we in Ireland can see the reason. It is a very compli- cated problem. I will give you the reasons why some of the paper mills did go. A small dealer in a country town of Ireland wants, probably, 20 Z. to 30/. worth of stationery and other materials in a year ; if he buys from a neighbouring paper mill he gets one single article, and has to go to London for the others. I need hardly tell you what a small trader will do in his own interest. He has no great interest in his neighbour's mill ; he prefers to buy all from one maker, from whom he gets a certain advantage ; 80 the paper which the local manufacturer had made in the neighbourhood he cannot sell there, and he has therefore to send it to London ; and to my knowledge paper made near the city of Cork was sent to London for years, whence part was brought back and sold in Cork afterwards. 95. Do not you suppose that is the case with the English paper manufacturers ; that they have to send to London at greater expense even than from Cork ? — No doubt that is the fact. 96. Why cannot he do that profitably in Cork ? — A paper manufacturer in Cork, in the first place, is not so convenient to the market for raw materials, and, in the next place, a single small manufacturer has to go about to different houses in London, and probably would find considerable difficulty in disposing of his paper except at a large discount off his price. 97. I do not yet quite understand that, because ■where you have cheap capital paper must be sent to London cheaj)er than, probably, English manu- facturers can make it ; you have cheap labour, and you have carriage, probably, quite as cheap or cheaper than some or many of our paper manu- facturers in England ; I do not quite see why those should not provide the means of carrying on businesa. Now I should like to ask you one other question ; is it due, do you think, to any want of a feeling of security ; I am not asking the question from having formed any opinion upon the subject, for I have not formed an opinion upon it ; that the capital being exported, and the labour not being employed upon the spot, the manufacturer finds it more difficult to get capital on loan ? — I have often heard that, but to me the thing does not appear in that light ; I cannot un- derstand any ground whatever why there should be a feeling of want of security such as would prevent capital coming in. 98. Is there any habit of combination, strikes, and that sort of thing ; there is that everywhere ; but is there more habit of combination among the Iiish workmen in manufactures than else- where? — The number of men who have gone on strike in Ireland would form so large an element in our industry that a very small strike is enough to destroy one of our manufactures altogether ; but I do not think we have any greater propor- tion of strikes than elsewhere ; but it sometimes Mr. Rathbone — continued, occurs that the strikes are promoted by, to use a modern term, a syndicate of manu- facturers. 99. I am not prepared to differ from you, be- cause 1 have no knowledge on the subject, except that in England it is often the fault of the em- ployers as much as of the emjjloyes, but is it more so in Ireland than in England ? — Tliere is a very well known case of how one manufacture dis- appeared from the city of Cork. There were 150 glass cutters in the city when I was a boy ; they cut glass made in the city before the duty was taken off, and they also imported uncut gla.=8 from England ; they had a great reputation, both for their patterns and for their skill in execution ; as soon as the duty was taken off, or about that time, a body of glass manufacturers in England paid the wages of the Cork men on strike for nearly two years. 100. Let me ask you another question; are there not wholesale stationers in Cork and Dublin ? — There are stationers who act as whole- sale traders, certainly, and that is the very way iu which the trade 1 speak of was kept up for a long lime, by the proprietor of a mill becoming a wholesale stationer himself; that is wliat he should have done. 101. Would not wholesale stationery in Dublin supply the small places, as they could be tempted by prices which would not involve carriage back- wards and forwards to London? — But it is a very complicated problem, and I will give you one single factor in that problem ; that is, our through rates, which favour a parcel from London, but will not favour a parcel from Dublin ; it is cheaper to send a parcel direct from London to Mallow than from Dublin to Mallow ; 26s. Sd. is gained by sending a ton of tea to Galway from London as compared with Dublin. It costs less to send it to Galway than to Athlone, which is about half the way, because of the rates being all made at the dictation of the London and North Western Railway Company and the Great Western Railway Company, who make, in point of fact, the law with re- gard to the railways in Ireland — for the Great Southern and Western and others. You must not take me as opposing through rales. I merely mention them to show that though on the whole favourable to the general trade, they are dis- advantageous to the small struggling manu- facturers or agents, and wholesale houses. Mr. Sexton. 102. Do you think that condition of things would be likely to be improved by your proposed amalgamation of railways under the Stiite? — Certainly. Not only would it be improved as regards through rates, which would be made for the purpose of helping the Irish industries, but also they would be able to make through rates to counterbalance the wants of the south and west of Ireland. 103. You mean that the Government, if they chosr, could act against the English railway combination? — I would not say "could act against " it, but the rates would be arranged in a fairer manner than they are now, witli a view to the industrial works of the country. 104. Now I wish to turn to an entirely different point. You, in answer to a question put by the honourable SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton. honourable Chairman, spoke of Ireland as if Ireland could be treated as a whole. Now, surely that is not the case. Surely we must treat Ireland as containing very different dis- tricts, in which the circumstances are entirely distinct ; as if, in fact, the circumstances were almost antagonistic ; is not that so ? — Not at all. There is a small corner of Ireland, which geologi- cally and in every other way is different, 1 admit. 105. But industrially ? — No, there is not much difference industrially between the various parts of Ireland, except as regards the north-eastern district. 106. I will say that I should agree with what you said as regarded the greater part of Ireland as to the emiuration which is now going on, and with the idea that Ireland is not to be encouraged by any artificial means; but would your views apply with equal force to those small districts of Ireland where there is neither industry, and whei-e the holdings are so subdivided that the hold- ings ;n land are only on the average under four acres per holding? — Of course if there was no chance Avhatever of any industrial employment for the j)eople, I would say for their own interest it would be better to remove them from a place where they were starving. 107. You made a very weighty remark just now, that the first hope of industrial success must be in the greater cultivation in the people of habits of industry ? — Certainly. 108. Where you have people so utseriy de- pressed, as you have in what have been technically called the congested districts in Ireland, contain- ing a population of about 300,OlO ; and where the habits of the people perhaps are to go over to England for two or three months, and work very hard, and then have very little to do for the rest of the year. I would ask you whether the first chance of raising such a district into industry, whether agricultural or industrial, is not the lifting of that population, in some degree, from their depth of depression, by the removal of families to such an extent as to give some chance of fair earnings on the part of the rest of the population ? — My experience is not in favour of that view ; more especially when I add that you do not remove the families. 109. But I am asking as to what you might do ? — If you remove a whole family, it would be an immediate benefit in the sense of taking away the people who are starving, and putting them into some place where they can do better. 1 10. Is not there a better chance of raising the wages of those who remain ? — No ; I think every witness who knows the country will tell you that emigration does not do anything of the kind. 111. I should like to inquire whether, in cer- tain districts of Ireland in which there has been a considerable emigration of families, there has not been a distinct rise of wages ? — Yes ; in 1848, and for a certain number of years afterwards, there was undoubtedly an increase of wages, because in many parts of the country, as for example, Cork; within my own knowledge the wages were only four-pence a day ; at present it IS different. But now the emigration does not produce any increase of wages, it only diminishes the amount of work. 112. Just let me ask you this: you say that was the case in 1848 : has not the progress of 0.98. ^ ° Mr. Sexton — continued. Ireland since 1848, in industry and in wealth, been very considerable ? — In industry, no ; in wealth, yes. 1 13. And in the position of the people ? — A great deal of money has been made by distri- bution, but not by manufacture. 114. Has not the position of the people very materially improved since that time, though not in the degree we should hope to see ? — Un- doubtedly. 115. I speak from my own connection with Ireland; are not the people able to buy both clothes and a better class of food, and what may be called the comparative luxuries of tea, sugar, and everything of that kind, in a very different proportion from what they were in 1848 ? — Un- doubtedly ; but I should demur at the same time to tea and sugar being considered the measure of prosperity in the country. 116. But you would admit they are able to consume a better class of bread ? — I could not say "a better class of bread"; as a chemist, I say the old system of food when I was a boy in a country place, was better than it is now. 1 speak only of the South, and of when I was a boy ; and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that the food of the people has deteriorated, and that their food was superior when I was a boy. Colonel Nolan. 117. Do the people eat as much meat now as they did in 1848 ? — Among the labouring classes there is not much difference. Mr. Rathbone. 1 18. Are they not much better clothed? — They are better clothed than they were from 1840, but not before that. 119. Are not the deposits (I am not speaking now of particular districts) of the labouring classes much larger in the savings banks than they were then ? — Upon the whole, perhaps they are ; but that would depend upon the district. 120. Do not you think that has to do with the fact of the emigration of the people, by however dreadful causes it has been brought about ? — Figui-es can do wonderful tilings ; but I have to remember that people who put money into the banks now did not know what a bank was when I was a boy, and that they kept it, as the saying was, in the old stocking ; they did not make any revenue out of what they had ; but that does not at all prove that they had not as much abso- lute capital then as they have now. 121. I am not going back so far as 1848. Was not it the fact that, in those districts where we know the emigration has been considerable, the wages of people have been distinctly raised, and the sufferings of people considerably diminished by the removal of a number of families and the concentration of their holdings, and the conse- quent effect of not having so many people to divide what labour there was amongst? — The result would vary. I do not say, as a general rule, that the country has not greatly improved ; undoubtedly it has. Physically, there can be no question of it ; but in many other respects the deterioration has been greater ; the youth have gone away, and left all the old people. There ia not more labour applied to the soil, nor as much as there used to be ; and that, I take it, is a A 4 better MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. SULLIVAK. [^Continued. Mr. Ralhbone — continued. better measure of whether tlie country has pro- fressed or not than the mere returns of a bank. Tow, I think that any man who knows the south of Ireland, or, indeed, three-quarters of Ireland, and I will add, a good deal of Ulster, which I bave been through partly on foot at different times, will agree with me in this ; and I am not' prepared to say that it is different in threer quarters of Ulster, that the amount of labour applied to the land has absolutely decreased. 122. My question was not devoted to three- quarters of Ireland, but I was merely wishing you to distinguish between those districts where the emigration has been such as you have de- scribed, and where the holdings are under 4 /. a head, and to ask you whether 3'ou would attach your replies to those districts, and to emigration conducted upon the principle of emigrating whole families? — I certainly think the congested districts would be greatly improved by having part of their population sent some- where else; but the question is, where. Take a part of County Mayo, which I know some- thing about. There the population is undoubtedly congested, because its population did not perish in 1848 ; its congested population has not diminished by death or by emigration, and the place is unquestionably a very poor and miserable district, always on the verge of star- vation. 123. In that disti'ict has not the land been so reduced by burning and various other mis- managements, as to make it extremely difficult to reclaim that district ? — I do not think tliat anything could disimprove that land ; it would require great skill indeed to disimprove that land, for it has never been improved at all. It was once covered with forests, and it is one of the most beautiful examples we have in Ireland of the injury done to a district by disafforesting it, for its soil is being swept away to the ocean. 124. Has not a good deal oC it been burnt to the bones, as it is called, by reckless cultivation? — There is so much peat there that it would take 100 years to burn it out. 125. But not in the niountainious districts ? — I admit they burn it too much. 126. I suppose we shall all be glad if you could, by what is called migration, relieve those congested districts; we do not wish to see the Irish go out of Ireland if they cim find work in it. But can you give the Committee any infor- mation as to the successful attempts to migrate, except upon the expenditure of a very large amount of capital ?— I am not aware of any ; it is not a point that I have directed my attention to. My observations have come from seeing emigrants going, or from j^assing by. 127. Then, as I understand you, you consider that the form which education has taken hitherto in Ireland has been injurious, inasmuch as it has directed the interests of the people rather to literary than to practical exercises ? — Yes. 128. And you consider, I think I understood you to say, that one of the greatest benefits that could possibly be given to Ireland would be to substitute to a large extent what may be called technical and practical education for a mere literary education? — Or adding it, rather. I Mr. Rathbone — continued. should wish it not to be understood that I have an objection to the literary part, but would merely mention that the books of the National Board were so arranged ; indeed most of the books that were used were so arranged that all idea of practical subjects was entirely kept out of them. I had evidence of it myself just recently in looking at two or three agricultural schools, in which I acted as a Primary Education Com- misioner. I undertook, with another member, who has since died, to visit the agricultural schools in the country and report upon them. I remember trying to find out the difference between giving to children a subject with which they were conversant, namely, a peat i)og, and a literary piece, which, if I remember rightly, was a passage of Cardinal Newman, written from the point of view of an Oxford Fellow in 1829, which would be a very different thing from wliat a bog child nhould be supposed to understand. The book that was selected upon the subject of the peat bog was full of hard names, technical terms, botany, and the like. All the children, however, perfectly understood it, because the object itself was all around them ; it was a tiling they were familiar with ; while they were per- fectly unable to understand in any way the literary piece which I set them. 129. I do not wish to go into that in detail, because I only want, in asking you any question upon that point, to elicit your general opinion upon the subject ; I have had the advantage of reading the Report of the Technical Education Commission, and I bave no doubt you have done the same ? — Yes. 1.30. And what I really wished to ask you (be- cause it will come with more weight from you than from anyone) was, whether you do not con- sider it would be most valuable to the Committee to make themselves acquainted with the part dealing with Ireland, in the first volume of the Report on Technical Education in Ireland? — Certainly. 131. I want to know your genei-al opinion as to whether one of the principal means of improve- ment in Ireland would not be a wide extension, in its best form, of the system of technical educa- tion ? — I am very strongly of that opinion. 132. Only one question more. You spoke of the canals as being very imjiortant for Irish communication. Taking things as we find thcra, do you think that as a means of transport for the produce of Ireland, and bringing it to market, an extension of the canal system or an extension of the tramway system in connection with the railways, would be most likely to be beneficial? — I think an extension of the tramways now, but that should not preclude the completion or keep- ing in repair of the system of inland navigation that we have. If we had no system of inland navigation in Ireland, I do not think anybody would think of proposing the making of it ; but the great outlines of it being there, it would be a great national misfortune if it were allowed to go, as is now the case, derelict. 133. Broadly speaking, do I understand your view to be that with regard to the communica- tions and the system of collecting and putting into market the produce of Ireland, you would develope SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 9 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \Coiitinued. Mr. Rathhone — continued. develop as far as possible what exists of canal and river communication ? — Certainly. 134. But w;th regard to any further develop- ments beyond that, to use the system of tram- ways as connected with other railways ? — That is my view. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. 135. The honourable Member who has ques- tioned you last, I understood to say that he did not believe that weak industricB could compete with powerful British industries ; is it not then an important point in industrial competition that one of the competitors should have capital and power to tide over bad times to secure continuity of work? — Certainly. 136. Is not that the reason why the richer firms in England must of necessity overcome, in bad times at all events, the weak industries in Ireland, though the workmen may have as great talent, and the manufacturers as great intelligence as those in England ? — Certainly. 137. Is there any hope that those industries, however well directed, can compete with the foreign capital and the English capital which is in competition with them, unless sufficient capital can be introduced to make it work? — Perhaps not so much to introduce it, as to make what is there fluid. Those who are in trade know per- fectly well that one of the great difficulties of the small traders and country shopkeepers is that the large capitalist in England is able to give them large credit, and that the Irish trader is obliged to be paid at once. 138. Have you turned your attention at all to the problem of how the flow of capital can be directed to industries in Ireland, looking at the present state of things in the two countries? — I have proposed a scheme, but it is not a subject upon which I would venture to offer any re- marks ; becnuse, although I have directed some attention to it, I do not consider myself an autho- rity on matters of the kind. 139. Is there any abstract reason why Mun- ster and Connaught, not to mention Leinster, should not have flourishing manufactures just like Ulster ; is there anything in the nature of the people or the soil or the natural resources which forbid Munster to have manufacturing industries; is it simplv want of capital oris there any other reason? — Want of skill and capital, 140. The want of technical education and capital? — Yes ; seeing that previous to 1826 the linen manufacture was as widely diffused in Con- naught as in Ulster. 141. Was not it the unjust action of this country in tbrmer years which really drove out and destroyed a number of industries in Ireland, which, in the absence of that interference, were flourishing, and would have continued to flourish ? — Certainly. 142. Therefore there is no natural reason why those industries should not, with technical in- struction and capital, revive ? — No ; all those industries, using either vegetable or animal raw materials, upon which coal or other minerals in the country have no influence ; that is, taking into account the manufactures which are fitted for a district which has, like most manufacturing 0.98. Mr. Sampson Llyd — continued, countries now, to import its raw materials, ought to be capable of being successfully carried on in Ireland. 143. You were good enough to tell the Com- mittee that a syndicate of English manufacturers artificially brought about strikes in Ireland in the case of the ulass trade : have there been any other cases? — I know one in which an individual, he being a large capitalist, tried to do very re- cently the same thing in Cork ; but that is a sub- ject upon which I think you will get many people whose information is more definite than mine. 144. It is not quite an isolated instance ? — ^It is not. 145. With regard to planting; is it your opinion that any serious benefit of a practical kind would come to Ireland if planting trees upon a large scale, as has been recommended by some writers in the newspapers, could be carried out ? — Undoubtedly. 146. It would improve the climate, would it not ? — It would. 147. And it would provide employment? — It would do a great many things, and most im- portant of all, it would prevent the denudation of all the mountain soils in Ireland which has hitherto been going on. 148. It would provide employment for a good many people. It has been suggested that the planting of trees brings rain ; does not it absorb the rain in case of floods, and would it not absorb some of the moisture of the bogs if the right sort of trees were planted upon them ? — It would increase the evaporation from the bogs; but I hardly look upon that as the main benefit. At present the diliicidty is that the rain falling in Ireland comes down torrentially, especially since the drainage, both arterial and thorough, brings down all the water into the rivers in a few hours after the fall, and therefore with greater velocity, 60 that the soils have almost all their soluble con- stituents washed out; but where you have the tops of the hills and a good deal of the higher country wooded, the rain is not diminished, but it does not come down torrentially, the woods stop it, and it goes more slowly into the rivers, with the result of producing less denudation. 149. Do you consider that the results which would arise from a scientific afforesting of Ireland would be such as to justify a national effort on the part of the Government or of the munici- palities? — I think so. 150. It is a thing which should not be left to private industry? — Private industry cannot do it. 151. Do you think people would at all destroy the trees or interfere with them ? — That depends upon the localities ; where people keej) goats, the trees might be interfered with, but if you jilant you must preserve. Then I would like to add that a wooded country, where wood is cheap, is one of the best incentives to the population learning the use of their hands. 152. The question arises naturally out of that; if woods are so beneficial, why are not trees planted, because there are many landowners who have given large sum:? of money for planting trees ; is it because it does not pay, or what ? — I remember recommending that many years ago to a gentleman who was a Member of this House, B the 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.J Mr. Sullivan. \_Conlinued. Mr. Sampson Lloyd — continued, the late Mr. Waldron. I said to him, " I should be glad if the Board of Education would esta- blish a school in a mountain district to teach forestry and reclamation," and he said the trees would not pay ; that after 30 or 40 years' growth they would not fetch half-a-crown, I think he said. But some years before his death he wrote me a letter stating that he regretted he did not take my advice upon his own property, for it would have added very largely to its value if he had planted more largely ; he had not anticipated the use of wood for sleepers and tramways and other things, or in fact the trade with England m pit wood. i.'iS. Is it not the fact that land agents in England would generally he of opinion that in the course of a period of 30 or 40 years, larch planting, particularly, would pay as fair a rental as agricultural land? — Yes, I believe that is the fact. IMr. Woodall 154. You have told the Committee that how- ever much may be done in the way of the develop- ment " of manufactures in Ireland, agriculture will still remain the most important industry of all ? — Certainly. 155. And you have told us that a large portion of the soil of Ireland is still under very imperfect cultivation ; can you tell us what has been done in the way of improving dairy produce ; you have some knowledge of the Munster Dairy School ? — I am one of those who took part in its foundation. 156. Can you tell the Committee what in- fluence that school has had upon the butter market at Cork, for instance ? — We had a report recently from one of the inspectors to say that every day it was beginning to tell upon the quality of the butter. There has been a large increase in all the higher qualities of butter into the Cork market since the establishment of that school. 157. Am I not right in supposing that there was once a very important foreign trade, with South America, for instance, in butter from Cork? — Yes, in the last century ; curiously enough, the export trade of Cork was chiefly to the districts which supply London now, France, Belgium, North Geimany, and even up to the Baltic. 158. And that trade succumbed in competition, did it not, to the better quality sent from Den- mark, I think? — No, before that it had changed; it had changed as far as France and Belgium wei'e concei-ned ; it was the beet sugar trade that produced all the great advance in French and German agriculture. Since the rise of the beet sugar industry in those countries, agriculture has gone on at an amazing pace. I remember, when a young man, walking through a district all full of bogs and mere brushwood, only used for tanners' bark, which is now a beautifully culti- vated district between Aix-la-Chapelle and Montjoie ; that is now a beautifully cultivated district, owing chiefly to the impulse given to agriculture by that trade. 159. But in your opinion the tide has turned, and the Cork commerce has recovered ? — It is now, I hope, beginning to turn. Mr. Woodall — continued. 160. That, you think, is directly attributable to the influence of teaching? — I think the butter trade in Cork looked rather askance at our eftbrts when we began, but it has so thoroughly suc- ceeded now, for we took the deepest interest in it, that some of the butter merchants actually give prizes to the pupils there to encourage them, and they give subscriptions also. 161. You have some knowledge of the system of agricultural teaching as applied to the national schools of Ireland? — Yes, 1 was connected with it for some time ; I acted as one of the reporters upon the subject in the Primary Education Com- mission. 162. Then you know something of the School of Agriculture at Glasnevin? — I do; I taught in it for some years. 163. And the instruction which is there given to the primary school teachers who are sent there for the purpose? — Yes; on that I have a very strong opinion. 164. Will you tell the Committee whether you think there has been any influence, and what, upon the general intelligence of those engaged in agricultui-e through the agency of Glasnevin and the primary school ? — A great deal, and a great deal more might have been done, but unfortunately the Glasnevin School was not utilised as it ought to have been for teaching the teachers. If it had been made a normal school for Irish rural teachers, agriculture would have spread ; but instead of that they established a number of small schools throughout the country under a certain pressure, when it was fashionable to encourage agriculture by schools, and these, as a matter of course, failed because there was no local interest in them; the absence of local interest was the thing that ruined them. 165. The local interest which you think so important has been forthcoming in connection with the Munster School, has it not ? — It has, and that is one of the main causes of its success, because it is entirely managed by a committee; it is practically managed altogether by it. 166. You think it will be important that the teachers in the rural schools should be sent to Glasnevin to get the same instruction as in a normal school ? — And get a thorough instruction, too. The teachers have always gone to the in- stitution at Glasnevin; but in my time they went there on a Saturday afternoon ; tiiey walked there and back again; they looked over the farm, and saw the animals, and felt them, I suppose; they looked round, and went back, and they had an agricultural education ; but 1 do not mean that ; I mean real bondjide sound teaching for 12 months. 167. Are you not aware that there is an arrangement by which teachers from remote parts go for a certain time ? — Certainly. 1 68. And you approve of that ? — I would make a normal school altogether of it. 169. Do you think it expedient that in the rural districts there should be a school-farm or school-garden attached to the national schools? — School-gardens, yes ; but school-farms, no. 170. Supposing that considerable progress should be made in the generally instructing the population in improved methods of culture, you think it would be expedient and practicable to supplement SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IEELAND). 11 7 Ma;/ 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Continued. Mr. Woodall — continued, supplement the earnings by agriculture by home industries ? — Yes, I think so. 171. Would you indicate to the Committee some of the dejiartments of industry which might be pursued in the remote agricultural districts in the spare time of people mainly dependent upon agriculture ; shall I say, straw plaiting, for in- stance? — That is a very small industry; it is very difficult now with machineiy introduced into almost everything to suggest offhand a number of trades that might be beneficially intro- duced. No doubt there arc a good many ; for instance, all the applications of osiers, basket- making in all its varieties, has nearly died out of the country. 172. Are you aware that there are some attempts, and successful attempts, at the present moment to revive it? — Yes ; I see that in two or three places they have done something in that way. 173. You have already spoken of your know- ledge of what has been done in stocking-knitting and work of that kind, and I know you paid a great deal of attention at one time to the art of lacemaking ; do you think that might be exten- sively pursued as a home industry ? — It is largely pursued as it is, but the great difficulty with an industry of that kind in Ireland is the absence of diffused art education ; in fact, that industry has partially died out in Ireland because of the want of design. 174. That remark would apply also to wood carving, would it not? — Altogether, and to any artistic trade, there being no means of cultivating art. 175. T should like you to repeat to this Com- mittee the evidence you gave to the Technical Commission with regard to the value of such schools as have been established in the Black Forest and the Tyrol for the establishment of similar industries there ? — The whole of the small wood toymaking of the Black Forest has been created in very modem times indeed, and I think the story of the production in the heart of the Tyrol of a pure art manufacture of toys in olive wood, is a very recent and striking case of the success of it. 176. You told the Committee that in your opinion the instruction given in the national schools in Ireland ought to be made more dis- tinctly industrial ? — I think it ought. 177. You have some knowledge of the nature of the teaching given in the reformatory and industrial schools in Ireland? — Yes. 178. Do you think that industrial instruction might be incorporated in some degree with the teaching sjiven in the national schools ? — I think so ; but in the industrial schools they have too limited a range ; they are all tailors or shoemakers or something like that. 179. Not at Artane? — At Artane ; certainly not. 180. And at some schools of the Christian Brothers ? — At one school, which is rather a re- formatory, I contended some years ago that they shoidd widen the range, and they did so. 181. But in one of those schools a consider- able number of young men and women receive a comparatively thorough instruction in particular trades ; they become joiners and weavers and so on : I want you to tell the Committee what 0.98. Mr. Woodall — continued, becomes of those young men after their term in the industrial school is completed : do you think they remain in the countrj' or are they attracted by emigration? — Some come over to England; seme remain in the country, and some go to America; but, I think, on the whole a large number of them remain. 182. But we have it in evidence that in many of the villages and remoter parts of Ireland, it is extremely difficiilt to find a man with any kind of mechanical skill ; is that so, do you think ? — I asked a friend of mine with regard to one town in the west of Ireland, how many artizans he had there ; it has a population of more than 4,000 people, and, I think, he was unable to count beyond 10 or 12 artizans of any kind, including in that number carpenters. 183. You have already told the Committee that the effect of emigration was to deplete it of the best character of the population, the youth of the country ? — Certainly. 184. And naturally we should like you to help us in any hints that would point to their being retained at home ; will you tell the Committee what are the natural resources of Ireland, which ought to be the raw material for the manu- factures ; you spoke of the mineral resources ? — Our mineral resources had almost better be for- gotten ; the mineral resources of Ireland are exceedingly poor. 185. But at the Cork Exhibition you had con- siderable varieties of marbles, had you not? — Yes, there are marbles, no doubt, and stonework of that kind might be developed ; but when I refer to minerals I had rather in my mind me- tallic ores. 186. Now with regard to the marble, I believe that at the Brompton Oratory, at this moment, there is being erected a very rich marble altar to St. Patrick ; do you know that it is true that that contains no Ii-ish marble at all : tiie con- tractor told me so ? — I was not there; I did not see it. 187. But you would not be surprised if I were to tell you that that is the case ? — Let me just observe that there is not very far from it a monument which contains a good deal of Irish material, and that is the Albert Memorial. It contains no less than four different Irish granites, which were selected by me in county Down and county Armagh for that very place, and that they are among the most beautiful part of the stonework of it ; so there is no lack of material in Ireland. 188. You told the Committee that at the Cork Exhibition there was a considerable variety of marbles exhibited ; you have also in the M useum at Dublin an extensive variety of samples, that there must be therefore a considerable wealth of material ; is it not also true that there is a very large amount of money expended in Ireland in various ways, such as altar work and other church work in which marble is employed ? — Yes. 189. And that that is imported very largely from Belgium ? — ^It is nearly altogether imported from Belgium. 190. Have you any idea why the native wealth of Ireland in that respect is not more completely utilised? — What would be the use of digging out the raw marbles unless you have tradesmen B 2 who 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Conliniied. Mr. Woodall — continued. ■who would be able to work it up ? There is no class of skilled tradesmen possessing the requisite knowledge to do it. 191. That brings me back to your first state- ment, thnt industrial training must lie at the basis of industrial success? — Yea; that collection of marbles in the present College of Dublin has been the cause of a great number of churches being now decorated or lined with marbles. It led the people for the first time to see there were marbles there ; but it dropped off after some time, owing to the difficulty of getting them. There was not demand enough to keep the quarries open. For instance, there is the red marble you see everywhere in Ireland in the pillars of new churches, tliat gave such an impulse to the •working of the quarries near Cork, and those red marbles are to be had with the greatest ease ; but the other varieties were not taken up, and therefore it would not pay to keep the other quarries open. 192. Alluding to the wealth of water power which exists in Ireland, I suppose it would not be difficult, in the event of a little skill being brought to bear upon the marbles of Galway, to apply water power there? — "Water power there could be easily applied. 193. Ireland in that respect is not any worse off than Switzerland is; Switzerland has no more mineral wealth than you have? — Except that they have some bituminous limestones like Val de Travers; but, practically, they have no coal, and they have no ores of the useful metals to any extent; that is quite true. 194. They have, as you have, water power? — They have. 195. But they have what you have not; the skill and enterprise ? — Yes ; and their water power is better; their mountains are higher. The value of a fall is much greater there than it would be in Ireland, except in some few districts in that sort of mountain rim round Ireland where the fall is very considerable. 196. But they have utilised their resources in machinery to a degree to which you cannot compare ? — They have. 197. You tell the Committee about certain ancient industries ; that there were certain parts of Ireland which were^ very active in loom- weaving ? — Yes. 198. In Bandon, for example, there was such an industry? — Bandon was a considerable weaving town. The little village of Blarney had, within a mile of it, four or five paper mills and a calico printing works. It had a rope works, where they made cables for vessels up to 74 guns. It had the first flax mill that ever spun flax in Ireland with machinery; that was erected in this very town. 199. Happily Blarney is, at the present moment, a prosperous jjlace ? — Yes, it is. 200. And Bandon ? — There is not much manu- facturing industry now at Bandon. 201. What became of the industries of Bandon? — The workmen emigrated at the break up of the banks, and the change caused by the introduction of machinery. 202. But, then, do you not think there is a parallel between the disappearance of those manufactures from Bandon and what might be Mr. PFborfa//— continued, found in the old centres of England? — Certainly ; the causes are the same, only plus those which I pointed out in answer to another question. And there is the political element which I mentioned, so that will limit the skilled trades to a smaller class. 203. There were certain guilds and organiza- tions in restraint of trade in England also ; but I want you to tell me what you think was the effect of the discovery of steam and the necessary consequent demand for coal? — Of course you cannot judge of the rise or fall of Irish industries historically, without taking that element into account ; it is a most important one. 204. So that the change in the shape of the concentration of manufacturing forces in Lan- cashire and Yorkshire has been verv largely governed by that ? — Yes, mainly. 205. You spoke of Blarney as an instance; now about Blarney there are very flourishing manu- factures, are there not ? — There is only one. 206. Are there not two ? — There is only one now ; there were formerly others. 207. Those manufactures compete very favour- ably with Galashiels and other parts of the south of Scotland, do they not ? — Certainly; everything that can be done in the way of the economical application of power and dyeing and everything, is now brought quite up to the British standard. 208. There is at least equal aptitude on the part of the workpeople ?— Yes, quite the same. 209. There is enterprise still on the part of the employers? — Yes. 210. What would be the difference in the price of coal at Cork and, say, Galashiels ; have you any idea? — I could hardly com- pare it with Galashiels, because that is so close to a coalfield ; but if I compare it with any part of England, like Norwich or any manufacturing town in the centre or east of England, I should say Cork could get coal as cheaply or more cheaply than any of them ; more cheaply than in London for example. This is a point 1 discussed very fully in the report I am making for the Cork Exhibition. 211. A cheap and abundant supply of coal is an essential condition in Ireland as elsewhere for important manufactures? — It is so. 212. But what I gather from you is that it is important to encourage the development of domestic industries, because seeing that when they become important they might lead to the establishment of factories, you would in the meantime have created a population who would supply those factories ? — Who would have learned the use of their hands. 213. I will not pursue that inquiry further as to the character of the instruction which is desirable, because the honourable Chairman is quite aware that you have contributed very largely to the report of the Royal Commission on Technical Education. I assume you will say to the Committee that what you stated in evidence to the Technical Commission is equally applicable to our inquiry here ? — It is. Mr. Whitworth. 214. I should like to ask you whether you think it is possible to develop an iron industry in Ireland, because some people have a notion that that SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 13 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Whitworth — continued, that is an industry which can be developed readily in that country ? — There are really only two, or perhaps three points, at which it would be even possible to do it. One of those is the Lough Allen Coalfield, where there is an abundance of iron ore. and the other would be in the County Antrim. Possibly there may be a chance of doing something in the Tyrone Coalfield ; but there the ironstone would have to be brought to the coal. In the Lough Allen district several attempts were made to establish an iron trade ; it had got quite a reputation at the end of the last century through a gentleman named O'Reilly, who got his education in France, and came there and established a very successful manufactory of bar inm made with charcoal. Another experi- ment was made about the year 1830, known as the Arigna Ironworks, which failed through various causes. A third attempt was made in the same field by a Scotchman at a place called Creevelea, where they took the coal to the iron- stone : in the other place they had the coal and the ironstone together. The Arigna experi- ment would have prospered, I think, but for a combination of political and other circumstances ; the state of the country at the time, and many other things. But the experiment at Creevelea failed simply because the persons who managed it did not understand their business. They used a furnace that might have done very well in Lanarkshire in the old days when they did not care how much coal they put in a furnace, with a wide throat to it which would burn a whole coalfield out in a few years ; and they made coke so rudely that what ought to have given them 70 per cent, only gave them about 30 by their method of working. I mention that to show that the experiment had not been well made : no doubt it would have been a more suc- cessful one if it liad been better done. 21.5. Have no experiments been made in the North of Ireland, where they have abundant iron ore ? — No. 216. Would the coal of Tyrone be suitable for smelting purposes? — It would be suitable for every purpose, because they have every variety of coal tliere. 217. It requires very pure coal to make good iron, and, if I remember rightly, the Tyrone Coalfield contains too much sulphur ? — There are some beds which are free from sulphur, but the history of the Tyrone Coalfield is not a very creditable one- 218. Supposing you could make iron in Ire- land nearly as cheaply as they can in England, what would you do with the produce ? — I do not attach any importance to Ireland making pig iron at ail ; it might be attempted, but that is all that could be said of it. I would not recommend any- body to do it. 219. Do you know the amount of money lying on deposit at the Banks of Ireland ? — Yes, I saw a Return the other day when I was looking into some statistics, but I do not recollect the exact figure. 220. Do yon know that the amount is about 32 millions ?— Yes, it is about that. 221. Why do people allow their money to lie on deposit at about 2^ per cent. ? — They do not get 2^ per cent. 0.98. Mr. Whitworth — continued. 222. Say it is 1^ per cent., why do they leave this money on deposit when it could be so well invested in improving the land ? — There are a great many reasons for that. In the first place you cannot get rid of acquired habits which have a historical source ; one of those is that the Irish farmers, more especially in the southern, western, and midland districts, give portions to their daughters. Their knowledge of banking is not very extensive, so they put in a good deal of the money they ought to keep outside and use for their own purposes ; they put it in as a sort of safeguard, and in the same bank as they borrow from ; but they do not draw from this de- posit, because it is the fortune of their daughters. And further, I should add, that until very recently a man would be a fool if he spent very much money in improving his land. 223. I can remember when Drogheda was the great seat of the linen manufacture in Ireland ? — I remember going there a good many years ago and looking through all its small linen work- shops for the purpose of getting samples for the Industrial Museum at Dublin. 224. Why has that trade entirely deserted Diogheda and gone north? — I suppose because it was in the hands of a number of very small men who had no capital and no credit at the banks. The banks in Ireland at that period when trade was in a state that it might have recovered, gave very little facility to small manufacturers. I remem- ber as many as 20 to 30 small manufacturers in the town of Drogheda making linen ticks, ducks, huckabucks, toweling, and other similar fabrics. 225. At one time they had a much larger linen trade than Belfast? — Yes, they had; but even in my memory they had a very considerable trade there. 226. You have a very large Irish population engaged upon the cotton trade in Lancashire ? — Yes. 227. I think there are about 250,000 Irish people there ? — Yes. 228. They show their aptitude there for con- ducting the cotton trade ? — Yes, they are very well spoken of. 229. I may say there are some districts of Lancashire in which three-fourths of the people engaged in the factories are Irishmen, now how is it that that trade has deserted Ireland ; at one time they had a considerable cotton trade ? — They had a small trade in hand-loom woven cottons in different parts, but they never had any large factories ; and 1 fancy at one time coal was a much more important element than it has been since; because taking Dublin, where calico printing works were very successful at one time, they have disappeared. The last man who had a factory of that kind in Dublin, Mr. Dufl^y, told me it made a difference to him in coal alone of 1,500 I. a year, and that he had no neighbours, which is an expression that I had heard several times before ; if he had had three or four neigh hours he would have done better. 230. Do you place much importance upon the want of coal in Ireland in keeping back manu- factures ? — It did more formerly than now ; we can get coal now more cheaply than London can, for example. 231. I think you will find that 2^ per cent. B 3 upon u MINUTES Oy EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Maij 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Whitworth — coatinued. upon the wages will more than counter balance the increased cost of coal ? — Very much more. 232. Therefore that cannot be any great obstacle to the spread of manufacture in Ire- land? — In the matter of raw materials of any kind, the modern course of commerce has changed entirely from what it was 20 or 30 years ago. We are just as well off as they are in many parts of Great Britain in that respect. 233. There is one very important fact con- nected with the cotton trade in Lancashire which 1 should be glad to have an explanation of, if you could give it to the Committee. Out of the 250,000 Irish hands engaged in the cotton trade in Lancashire, you cannot find one Irish employer. Now take the whole of the cotton trade in Lancashire, I think nearer 60 per cent, than 40 per cent, of the employers have risen from the ranks, either they or their fathers. Now I cannot understand why there should not be one single Irishman an employer of labour, while 250,000 of them are employed as operatives ? — The want of traditional aptitude is one cause. Then in the beginning of Irish colonization of Yorkshire and Lancashire many of them did not know how to read. Mr. Leake. 234. That is years ago? — No doubt that is years ago ; but the people do not grow up in one generation to an aptitude of that kind, and tradition goes a great way you know. Mr. Whitworth. 235. But this state of things does not apply to the Irishmen in America ? — It does not ; but you will remember that there is a totally different position of things in America. In America, whatever is in him is brought out by contact with people in whose whole life the Irishman par- ticipates ; Irishmen in England, as for example, in the towns of Lancashire, live all together, and their ideas and traditions are perpetuated. 236. Can you give the Committee your opinion as to what industry in Ireland is most likely to be developed ? — I think three industries, putting aside what I would call the natural ones ; agri- culture and fishing ; that is to say, linen and flax in the north, and woollen and paper in the south ; these ought to be developed to a great extent. 237. Why not cotton manufacture ? — I do not know why not cotton manufacture also ; but I think when you compare the prices of labour in England with the prices of labour in Bengal, it would be rather difficult for us to enter into a field in which between the two we would not find any place. 238. But we do compete with the Bengal cheap labour ; we export, I suppose, fifty times as much as they manufacture ? — Yes, no doubt you do, but you are only at the beginning of what Bengal is going to do ; look at the returns which are given by one of the Inspectors of Facto- ries as to the relative prices of weaving in England and in Bengal, the comparison is rather startling ; I do not think we have this field open for us with 80 little capital and so little technical skill as we possess ; I hardly think we are in a position to take up a manufacture like that where it does not exist, and where men of capital would not Mr. Whitworth — continued, come forward and establish it ; it would be rather a risk for men of small capital in Ireland to take to a manufacture like that ; but in woollen manu- facture we can do it upon a much smaller scale, and it can be spread through the country, and so with the paper manufacture. 239. But the paper manufacture has almost disappeared? — Not altogether; it has diminished for the reason I gave, that there was no capital to help it at the time of the abolition of duty ; that also affected the small papermakers in England, but they have recovered. 240. Why should not the paper manufacturer in Cork be able to compete with the paper manu- facturer in Lancashire. Take the paper manu- factured for the " Times " newspaper, which comes, or the great bulk of it, from Lancashire; the carriage from Lancashire to London is very much greater than it would be from Cork to London? — I have no reason to doubt that if the same skill and sufficient capital were brought to bear on it, the paper manufacturers in the south of Ireland ought to be able to live as well as the paj)er manufacturers in Lancashire or those of Belgium, using the same raw material, wood fibre. 241. You laid some stress upon the different rates of carriage by the railways ; does not that also apply to England ? — Yes. You are com- plaining very strongly in England ; but remember yuu can bear it in England, whereas it is death to the small manufacturer in Ireland. 242. I have known the carriage from Man- chester to Calcutta considerably less than the carriage from Manchester to London? — The carriage at this moment from New York is a great deal less than the carriage from Manchester to London ; the carriage last year from New York to Liverpool was 4 s. S d. per ton. 243. You stated that you thought the food of the people was quite equal before 1848 to what it is at the present d;iy ? — Yes. 244. What was it before that date ? — The food of the people was, to a large extent, oatmeal. 245. Was it not more potatoes? — No; pota- toes came from about 1830 to be the chief food of the people ; there was a very large amount of oatmeal eaten as well as potatoes. As a proof of that I have only to mention that there was a large special market in the city of Cork for oatmeal, a very considerable market ; it is now reduced, I believe, to two or three women with a few tubs of inferior meal. 246. What is the principal food now?— Bread and tea are almost the entire food of the working people ill Ireland, with some potatoes occa- sionally ; but bread and tea are substantially what they prefer. 247. How much have wages advanced in Ireland, I will say, since 1840? — They have not advanced very much ; for example, taking a labouring man round Cork (I will take an out- side place wliere the wages are not very high; I will take Haulbowline, near Cork), he can only get 12 s. a week. 248. But what did they get 40 years ago? — In some of the country places they got as low as 4 fi^. a day, but in the city of Cork the wages were 10 s. a week at that time. The same man who gets 12 s. now at Haulbowline then got 10 s. or 11 s. 249. You OMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 15 7 Alay 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Con.tiiiued. Sir Hervey Bruce- 249. You say the food was better; do you consider that oatmeal is a better food than white bread ? — Certainly. 250. Than white meal bread? — Oatmeal is better than any white meal, and the whiter the worse, as the whole food. 251. I differ with you there ? — I do not say for you or me. 252. Arising out of that, you think a man can work better upon an oatmeal cake than upon white bread ? — Because he is supplied in the oat- meal with physiological constituents which have been taken out of the flour. Mr. Rathhone, 253. Ought he not to have milk with it? — He ought. Sir Hervey Bruce. 254. Now with regard to emigration, I gather from your evidence that you did not think emigration had so far done much good ? — No. 255. Do not you think that is partly caused by the small farms being still continued as a small fai-m, cuing to the person buying it from the out- going tenant himself becoming pauperised by the price he has paid for it ; so that the country is not relieved ? — fhere are some districts where that would apply, but it would not apply gene- rally. In the district I have in my mind in the south, which is not congested as many of the districts in Connaught are, the effect of emigra- tion has simply been to reduce the labour on the tillage. 256. You stated that you thought the re- afforesting of Ireland, particularly on the mountain lands, would be a great advantage ? — Yes. 257. Are you aware that the tenants attach immense importance to what they call those little bits of outsports, some smaller and some larger, for grazing purposes?— Yes, indeed I do, but there are many places that would gi-aze nothing. 258. How do you propose to acquire those lands still having the good will of the people, so that the trees should not be destroyed at the same time ? — I know that that is one of the great difficulties of doing the work. 259. Do you see any way of overcoming that difficulty ? — I imagine that there are many parts of the country where the land is unfit for grazing, yet would be well adapted for growing trees; and I think if the thing were applied there first, people would very soon see the im- portance of it themselves. 260. Now I will ask you a question upon another subject, upon the subject of school farms ; in answer to an honourable Member you said that you would not have school farms, but that you would approve of school gardens ; would you tell us the reason for that ?— Because of the small success of those that have been established. There were formerly a number of them in Ireland, and there was not a single one of them that did any real good ; it would be a great deal better to have a few well managed, than a great many ill-managed school-farms scattered through the country. 261. I do not quite follow your reasoning there why a school garden would be so much more advantageous than a school farm ?— Because if 0.98. Sir Hervey Bruce — continued, you have a school farm attached, the teachers' time is a good deal taken up by it, and he does not devote the attention to the school that he otherwise would. if he has a school garden, he can illustrate all his school teaching upon a small patch attached to the school. 262. Then practically your objection only applies to the amount of attention the master could give. I take it that a second master for agricultural purposes could give the requisite amount of attention ? — Yes ; there are, how- ever, many schools where a single master could do both. In your own province you have had the very best that ever existed in Ireland. At Lough Ashe, in the county of Tyrone, about 10 miles from Londonderry, I knew the master, named Moore ; he happened to be from the south of Ireland, but bis influence was traceable from Antrim to Donegal. He was one of the teachers who worked his farm for his own profit; his school belonged to the class of schools under local management in connection with the National Board, as the Department of Agriculture was formerly organized; he got 10/. a year for his farm ; it was a private farm, but his teaching was the most effective that ever I remember seeing, either here, or in Oermany, or elsewhere. I mention that to qualify my observation as to the school farms. 263. I thought it required a little qualifica- tion ? — Yes, it was necessary that I should qualify it. 264. You mentioned two industries that you would cultivate, I think ; wool and paper ? — Yes, wool and paper. 265. Are you aware that in the city of Derry there are rather extensive shirt manufactories doing a good business and employing many people ? — Yes; a representative of that industry was sent to the Cork Exhibition. 266. Do not you think that could be developed? — I have no doubt of it. 267. Then that is a third industry ? — Yes, and there are many others ; I would add also shoe- nialdng. I do not see why we should not make shoes as well as they do in Nottingham or in America. Mr. Carry. 268. I gathered from your evidence that what you think should be the basis of any industrial improvement in Ireland would be technical education ?— Yes. 269. And that, without that technical educa- tion, we need not expect any great improvement in the condition of the people as far as industrial work is concerned ? — No, unless the hands are educated as well as the mind. 270. You gave us an instance of what has been done iu that way by the Munster Dairj' School ; you thought it had a great influence in improvincr the production of butter there ; that the quality is better than it was under the old system? — And not only that, but it has produced, I may say, an occupation for women as dairymaids, in which they get at least twice or thrice as good waofes as they formerly got ; we have had applications even from England for dairymaids. 271. You spoke about peat being available for many purposes ; you are aware that the manu- facture of peat has been tried in many parts of B 4 the 16 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Conlinued. Mr. Coiry — continued. the country ; are you aware of any instances in ■which it has been a success? — No; unless General McQuay's experiment is successful ; that is on the peat litter. 272. I think there is something of that kind in the neighbourhood of Magherafelt, in the county Antrim ; were you aware of that ? — I was not, but General McQuay is conducting his manu- facture in the King's County. 273. In Belfast we have been able to carry out a number of industrial businesses, such as ropemaking, to a very large extent ; we have the largest ropery establi-iliments in the United Kingdom, and that has been all developed in the last 10 or 12 years; then we also have estab- lished the Market "Warden Companies, which you know something about ? — Yes, I know them. 274. Which send out the greater part of what is produced in Belfast for sale in London ? — Yes, and we occasionally send up there young artists from the Art School in Cork. 275. So that there is no want of adaptation in the Irish people provided there were scope for them ? — None whatever. 276. Now the beet cultivation you talked about as having improved. Speaking of Austria, I think it was, you said, in consequence of that beet cultivation other things had been knocked out altogether? — The beet cultivation has to a large extent created the manufacturing district of the north of France ; it has led to the establishment of many of its manufactures of machines ; they are chiefly due to the beet industry. 277. You are aware that the beet cultivation was tried in Ireland at one time and failed ? — It failed ; but I could tell you the reason why, if you would like to hear it. 278. I think it would be interesting to hear it? — It was tried at Mountmellick ; two old build- ings were offered to the promoters, one on the banks of the canal, and another half a mile away from the canal ; the one half a mile away from the canal was selected. Beet machinery, especially the portion of it where the sugar is separated from the syrup by centrifugal machinery, requires a very high speed; it requires a new building to put it in; an old mill was taken. Next, the boiler that was used was one that had been worked for the whole of the beet season in Belgium, where it was purchased, and it required 400 tons ol coal to work it when it was properly set ; it was so set that it burnt 800 tons. A proper factory would haverequu'ed about 200 feetof pipe, which should be covered, because for the evaporation a good high pressure of steam is required ; there were in place of that 800 feet of uncovered pipe. The beet is at its best in the months from September to November; they did not begin manufacturing till February. The beet is also stored so as to keep it fi om rain and wet when it is uot wanted immediately ; they put it in the middle of a field where half the time it was flooded. They required about 15-horse power ; they used three engines to produce over 30-horse power, and one of them, which was the patent of one of the promoters, required more steam than would have worked the whole machinery. The whole effective power of a factory cf this kind depends Mr. Corry — continued, upon the rasps ; the beet was at that time rasped into a pulp. The rasp consisted of two drums revolving, which were to be fed. The old mill was so admirably adapted as a factory that they carried the roots from the ground up to the top and washed them at the top, and then let them down to the ground floor, whence they were again lifted to the drums, and these were so set that only one rasp could be used ; so that when the rasps of that mctory were at work only half of the normal product that ought to have been produced was obtained. Then there was nobody who had ever boiled a ton of sugar in his life. The work- man who actually produced the sugar was a coppersmith from Belsium, and a good co])per- smith too. The superintendent of the factory had never seen any sugar boiled, and the only thing he knew about it was that he had been one of Garibaldi's men in Home. Now if that could succeed, or if the failure of it is a proof that the industry is not suited to Ireland, I have nothing more to say. 279. Then you think the management was what failed, and not the beet cultivation, or the produce of the beet? — As regards the beet culti- vation, and the views which I have expressed upon it, for I was, so to speak, the author of the movement with regard to the beet-sugar, the failure was not due to the quality of the roots which might be grown; the country will grow good roots provided the growers know how to do it. 280. It is very much like flax, which requires special manipulation after it is grown, and I suppose beet does the same ? — No, not after, but during the growth. The people in Ireland have not grown any industrial crops, with the exce])tion of flax in the north; and the agricultural know- ledge of Ireland is so low that they are not able to grow any industrial crop without special teaching. 281. Do you think that an industry such as that which you refer to now, namely, the i)re- paration of beet, should be taugiit in the national schools? — Perhaps the initiatory part ought to be begun there. It ought to be continued after- wards by practical teaching. Of course, in Ire- land, where they can only grow quantity and not quality, the spaces at which the roots are usually grown in Ireland would be enough to ruin the beet for the purpose of sugar making. 282. You spoke about Ireland being very defective in railway and tramway communication; but you are aware that in the last Session of Parliament, or the previous Session, an Act was passed to enable tramways to be carried through the country on very advantageous terms, and that very little advantage has been taken of the Act ?— I could not say that that is so, for a great number of enttrprises were taken up, and a good deal of money spent upon getting them adopted ; but so defective was the Act that it could not be worked very well. 283. I thought that was amended? — One or two of the projects are in a position to be carried out ; but in the meantime a good deal of money was lost and rather an unfavourable im^ircssion was produced upon the minds of the people ; having spent their money they did not like to come back to try again, even with the amended Bill. 284. Do you know that under the present law great SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 17 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Contimied. Mr. Carry — continued. great facilities are now afforded for the creation of tramways all over the country ? — But taking the west of Ireland, how could you get a baronial guarantee from the land that was there ? It would hardly pay for it. 285. But baronial grants have been given? — Yes ; but only in districts able to bear the bur- then, and there the projects are not rapidly taken up. Mr. Sexton. 286. Or extensively ? — No ; there is one case which everybody knows; take Clifden, for example, a tramway that is much wanted in the country from Galway to Clifden, to open up the whole of the west of the country. I would oidy suggest to anyone to go to that district and say, is that part of the country capable of bearing the expense of a tramway, and if he came back with that idea I should be much surprised. Mr. Carry. 287. You spoke of paper manufacture as one of the industries that Ireland was particularly capable of undertaking ; you are aware that there is a paper manufactory at Bally clare? — I am aware of all your success in Belfast ; but what- ever good fortune we have in the way of raw materials in the country you have there, 288. The minerals we have are all exported ? — You have salt, which should form the basis of a great industry there. 289. But that is all exported ?— That is the fault of the north. 290. In the south of Ireland there was in former times a very lai-ge ship-building industry; that has all disappeared, hae it not? — Not altogether. 291. But practically ?— No, there is one place left. 292. AVhere is that ?— At Passage. 293. It will not be right to bring one's own experience into the question upon a matter of this kind ; but a very short time ago a ship of ours happened to be in Cork, and we had to go and look for the people to come and make the repairs in place of them coming to us ? — That is likely enough. Mr. Eioart. 294. With regard to water power, we have heard a great deal from time to time to the effect that Ireland is very well circumstanced for water power ; but is there really much advantage in that in reference to manufacture ; is it not the case that water power is in the country, not where the population is, and that it is considered better to supply steam where the population is than to establish manufactures where there is no popula- tion ? — In answer to another question, I stated that you have to go to the water ; you can go where you like with steam: that where you work with water, "if the mill dams are made and the reservoirs completed, water power is very cheap; but if you have to make the reservoir and make the weirs, and make the mill race, it is not cheap. In fact, I think that the whole water power question for the present, at all events, is one that should not be too much dwelt upon. 295. I entirely agree with you ; and I think it would be well to turn our attention in other 0.98. Mr. Ewart — continued, directions. You spoke of Drogheda, and the decline of the linen business ; about what time would that begin to take place? — The decline would go back beyond the year 1840; but the time of the rapid decline when I found so many small manufacturers was in 1854. 296. Those were all hand looms, were they not ? — Yes. 297. And they had not enterprise to go into power loom weaving ? — They had not the money. 298. And they had not the money for their former business everywhere. Are you not aware that in the north of Ireland it was the people who had the hand looms who extended into the power loom? — 1 am perfectly aware of that, only they had better facilities of getting capital, and probably better education ; I am sure they had a better education, a more practical education. 299. Had they not sufficient banking facilities at Drogheda ? — Not at the time I speak of, when it would have been beneficial to the town of Drogheda. Mr. Sexton. 300. AVas not there encouragement given by bounties by financial means in Ulster at one time ? — Yes, the linen trade was fostered upon bounties ; and it is worth noting that it is only from about 1824 to 1826 that the linen trade became developed to the extent it has now in Ulster. It mav be worth mentioning that the very factory which is now working as a woollen factory in Blarney was the first factory which had a spindle driven by power, and the British Army was clothed during the Peninsular War with ducks that were woven there. Mr. Ewart. 301. It is a pity it has not been continued more successfully? — Probably it died out with the bounty ; it had not been continued long enough. In the north it was continued a great number of years, whereas we had it only a short time in the county of Cork. 302. But the bounty system was applicable to the whole of Ireland ? — Yes ; but the use of it in the south could only begin at a later period. It is the same story with regard to the fisheries of Ireland and Scotland, In Scotland they had the use of bounties for many years, and then the bounty system was introduced in 1819 into Ire- land. In 1821 Parliament reversed the whole thing, and from 1824 the system ceased as to bounties, so that we had three years' bounties, and the Scotch had 50 or 60 years. Chairma7i. 303. That was one of the Articles of Union, was it not ? — No ; it was the Fishery Commis- sion of 1819, which was dissolved in 1830. Colonel King-Harman. 304. When you speak of a school garden as compared with a school farm, you simply mean that the school garden should be upon such a scale that the schoolmaster can overlook it; not actually a garden ? — Yes. 305. You do not mean what we call in Eng- land a garden, such as a vegetable garden, but C something 18 MINUTKS OF EVIDKNCl; TAKEN BEFOBE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Colonel ^z«^-^i2r»ja«— coutinued, something upon which a rotation of crops can be shown upon a small scale ? — Certainly. 306. With regard to peat, have you had any experience of Fox's patent for drying the fuel by maceration ? — I have seen every one of the processes tried. 307. That was nearly a success, was it not ? — Yes ; but all the processes are too expensive. The heating power of peat, when fairly dried with 20 per cent, of water, is only half that of second-class coal, and then the bulk is very large ; the average specific gravity of ])eat, that is the upper or brown peat, the only peat used for fuel, is not half that of water, so that you have from 90 to 250 cubic feet of piled turf to make a ton ; you cannot transport that ; it will not pay. 308. But with Fox's patent, where there was maceration employed, the bulk was very much less ? — Yes, you had a dense material. 309. I do not know whether you have given any information to the Committee about the sub- ject of naphtha or candles manufactured from peat ? — I have not ; I conducted the experiments upon that subject for the Government. 310. Would you kindly tell the Committee something about that ? — I am afraid that its his- tory will not be much better than that of the beet. 311. Still a good article was produced, was it not ? — Yes. 312. A splendid candle was produced? — The first paraffin that was made an article of com- merce was from the Irish peat, but it was not made at a sum that v/ould pay. 313. Do you think, from what you have seen, that considering the increase of invention and machinery that comes up every day, there is any future, in all human probability, for Irish peat ? — I have considerable faith in peat upon the spot ; it is a very economical fuel if it is cut and dried in the ordinary way, and if it be used near the spot, so that there is no carriage against it. 314. But I am not speaking of it in that way ; I am speaking of it as an article employed in industry ? — I speak of it, too, in that way ; you can manufacture it provided the process be not a complicated one. 315. What I wish to put to you is this, seeing that several of these experiments have been so nearly success, do you think there is any pro- bability of their eventually turning out a success, or do you think we have reached the utmost pov/er ? — No, because a number of these things have succeeded elsewhere. Take the roasting of ore. I recollect taking a Swedish commissioner who came over to Kerry to show him the kind of peat that was being burnt there, and in two or three other places, and, in exchange for what I showed him, he sent me specimens of the iron ores of Sweden roasted for the first time with peat and bar iron made with it. 316. Was that peat macerated or compressed? — It was ordinary cut peat dried, and they are using it for producing gas-puddling, furnaces, and similar uses, in Austria. 317. Xow, with regard to beet, that is> a very exhausting crop, is it not? — Not more than turnips. 318. Are they not finding it an exhausting crop in North G ermany at this moment ? — Po- Colonel King- Uarman —continued. tatoes,for example, are still more exhausting. If you grow beet continually, and do not return what you take out of the soil, it is an exhausting crop ; but, as a matter of fact, it is not more ex- hausting in the two principal elements you have to provide the soil with than potatoes. 319. I5eing a very exhaustive crop, would the small farmers be able to grow it ? — I think they could grow it the same as they grow potatoes. 320. Would not they be obliged to give it up for the same reason as they gave up flax ? — I think they gave up flax, not because it was exhausting. I tried to find out the reason in Ulster, and I found that the decline was in pro- portion to the decline in tillage generallj'. I went into the calculation in the report I am making for the Cork Exhibition, and 1 have come to the conclusion that the decline in the cultivation of flax has nothing to do with its exhausting pro- perties, but is simply due to the decline alto- gether of tillage. It is one of the crops in a rota- tion, and the whole series of the rotation being unprofitable flax has dropped out, not because that particular crop was specially exhausting. 321. Do not you think that the decline of that particular crop has been brought about by a ring of buyers combining, and not giving a fair price for the article ? — I should say in the south of Ireland a good deal of decline is due to the absence of a mai'ket. Captain Aylmer. 322. I wish to ask you one or two general questions ; first, you mentioned that the minerals of Ireland are too poor to be worked at a profit ; is it not the fact that, a few years ago, the Awdry family, who had the Berehaven and other mines, had made a large profit out of them? — Yes, it is true. 323. Why cannot they be worked at a profit now? — Since that time the ores of America, North and South, and of Spain, are largely im- ported. Take, for instance, the copper mines ; at Denver City they worked the copper ore there at one time merely for the gold ; they ground up the ore and extracted the gold with mercury ; and so rude was the process that they imported the Irish shovel, which has gone out of use for all other purposes from the north of Ireland ; they carried Irish shovels to Denver City for the pur- pose of driving off" the mercury and having a cake of gold left. There was 20 per cent, of copper in the heaps after the extraction of the gold ; they were worthless, because there was no fuel to smelt them with ; yet at that time the ore smelted at Swansea was only 5 per cent. ore. Now these ores are all coming into the market, and between the Mexican border and Illinois there are 5,000 lodes of lead and copper, any one of which is equal to all ours put together. 324. Have you any experience to prove that they are unable to work at a profit now in the Berehaven and other mines in the west of Cork ? — The Berehaven Mine has failed ; it is being wound up; the Waterford ones are not now worked ; and the zinc mine, in which I take a great interest, because I examined it for scientific purposes, has failed because of the low quality of the greater part of the ore, and the presence of disseminated lead ore. 325. But SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTEIES (IRELAND), 19 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Captain Aylmer — continued. 325. But is it not the fact that most of the mines in the west of county Cork were made the plavthino of the London promoters, and that out of the money subscribed verj' Httle went to the mines, and that that has brought discredit upon them ? — That is perfectly con-ect, but still, even in Cornwall itself, many of the mines to which that will not apply are, nevertheless, in a weak condition owing to foreign mines. The fact is, our ores are very poor, and the lodes very small, and requiring very great skill to follow out. 326. Leaving out of the question the copper ores, I saw them in Cork, v/hen I went over to ex- amine the question, shipping barytes for New York from the quay at Cork ? — That is very successful, but it is not a mineral of great importance. 327. Why, if they are able to ship the barytes from Cork to New York, are they not able to work it more largely ? — It has a limited market ; barytes has half-a-dozen uses, none of them being very big. One of its first uses was in glass- making, as a substitute for lead, in making cheap phials for apothecaries, but its principal use is as a substitute for white lead, as it always was; 328 . Is there none shipped to England ? — Yes ; there is a factory at Warrington which uses it for the manufacture of various compounds and pig- ments. They do a good business near Warring- ton importing the barytes from Cork. 329. Is not the iron ore of Lame extremely valuable for a certain colour that is obtained from it by the colourmcn ? — There is a certain amount of ochre in different parts of the country, but the applications of ochre are limited. 330. Is it not worked now? — Yes; in 1883 about 3,000 or 4,000 tons of ochre went from Ireland ; and another variety of it, bog iron ore, which is an impure ochre, is to a large extent employed in gasworks for taking the sulphur out of the gas. 331. I quite recognise the justice of your re- mai'k about American copper beating out the Irish cojjper, but there is another branch which has never been opened in Ireland. Do you know anything about the large deposit in the west and north of cupreous pyrites, similar to the Rio Tinto ore, say 1 -I to 2 per cent, of copper and 38 per cent, of sulphur ? — I know about the great metalliferous region of Andalusia, in which occur the mines of Huelva and liio Tinto, but I do not know any part of Ireland in which deposits of cupreous pyrites of equal extent could occur. 332. If I could prove by evidence to the Com- mittee that there are lying in the west (if Ireland ores similar to the Rio Tinto, upon which millions of English capital have been spent, would you see any reason why they should not be worked ? — I should be bi)th delighted and surprised. But I should observe, with regard to the Rio Tinto, which, taking the whole district, is 105 miles in length, stretching into Portugal, it has been cal- culated, in 1860, that for the next 300 years it would produce as much copper as was used in the world in that year (about 60,000 tons) from the ore above the great adit level alone, without any deep mining at all. It is that very fact which, by the Parliamentary Returns you will see, has helped to put an end to some of our small mines. 333. The flour mills in Ireland are a very large industry, are they not ? — They are. 0.98. Captain Aylmer — continued. 334. They are at present changing their ma- chinery to the Hungarian system, are they not ? — Yes. 335. They have had to meet a very serious competition lately from America ? — They have. 336. 'Ihe Americans have taken to sending over their flour in small bags, retailing it, in fact ? — Yes, they have. 337. Is it not the case that American flour which comes over in small bags for retail pur- poses is considerably adulterated, as compared with what is turned out of the mills in Ireland ? — As to the adulteration, I have never seen much of it, but I know that the American flour sent over is in other respects inferior; for example, in the amount of ghiten, which is an important matter in respect of food. 338. I suppose Mr. R. C. Hall could give the Committee good information upon that subject? — Yes ; or Mr. Furlong. 339. It is the fact that the great industry of the flour mills of Ireland at the present time is entirely depressed, on account of the retail flour imported from America ? — Yes. 340. And this American import is inferior to the home article ? — Yes, it is in one respect. 341. You are not prepared to state that it is inferior in respect of adulteration? — I am not, of my own knowledge. 342. Seeing, as you have stated, that the great food of the Irish is the white bread, do not you think it would be a great advantage if some pressure were put upon the Goverument to induce them to examine into the alleged impuri- ties and adulteration of the American flour ? — It might be done. 343. The cattle trade of Ireland is one of the largest, is it not ? — It is the largest trade. 344. Can you state to the Committee the number of beasts sent from Ireland every year? — No, I have not the number at the moment. I have looked up the subject occasionally, but I do not at the moment recollect the exact number. 345. Should I be right in saying that it is somewhat over half a million of beef? — Yes. 346 . Somewhat over 2,000,000 of beasts and sheep ? — Yes. 347. And sending them in a live state, they suflPer tremendously, do they not? — They do. 348. Can you tell me what the loss per beast is estimated to be from sweating and other causes in transit ? — I have heard so many estimates that I should not like to state it upon my own autho- rity ; but I have heard that there is a loss of a great deal of money occasionally, and I know that the cattle are always in a high state of fever when they reach the markets of England. 349. ])o you think I should be exceeding a due estimate if I stated to the Committee that the loss per beast from animals dying on the way, and damage to the hide, &c., is equal to 30 s. a beast ? — I should not be surprised ; but I would not like to state of my own knowledge that it is so. 350. Taking it at 30 s., that would be some- where over 1,000,000 /. absolutely lost for no benefit ; now, I would ask you, do not you think that they might be killed in Ireland, and that, if sent over in a not frozen but chilled state, would be far better than what comes now in a live state C2 to 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Captain Aylmer — continued. to this country ? — I so entirely agree with you in that, that I have been trying to encourage that very thing in Cork, and I i^ot one of those cold air machines brought over to the Cork Exhibition for the express purpose of bringing it under the attention and purview of our own butchers, to see if they could not adopt it. 351. Have you heard that the North Western Railway Company have offered to build large- sized cold chambers to convey the meat to Milford, in order to supply England with dead meat if required to do so ? — I should be glad to hear that. 3f)2. Does not Ireland, in addition to the loss by sweating of the beasts, lose the great leather trade and the hide trade in consequence of send- ing the beast over alive? — I have stated in my report for the Cork Exhibition that the making of horn combs disappeared from Ireland simply from want of material, and that the offal from the killing of the animals that are now sent over alive would be the basis of a good many trades, if the animals were killed in Ireland. 353. There is another trade lost also by shipping cattle alive in an agricultural country, which you would say is a valuable ti'ade, that is the bone and blood manure trade ? — That is also lost ; all the oft'al trades, the gut manufactures and so on, are lost. 354. In addition to the loss of the skin and ■leather trade, we lose the bone and blood manure trade ; we lose the soap and candle trade ; we lose the sausage skin trade ; and we have not got, as we would have, the tinned meat trade ? — Yes ; and the gut trade. 355. Would it be an expensive thing to put up small abattoirs at the different stations, 30 or 40 miles apart, along the lines of railway in Ireland ?— I do not think it would. 356. There would be no difficidty, now that we have the telegraph, in getting information as to what to forward to the place of shipment? — I do not think there would. 357. Now take the paper trade, which used to be so very good at Cork ; I do not think you have stated actually why that has gone? — At the change from duty paid to duty free, and the in- troduction of a number of new materials, the small manufacturers having no capital, and work- ing on a very small scale, were all knocked on the head ; it happened in England in the same way. 358. There is no law that would put Ireland in an inferior position as regards paper-making from that of England ? — None whatever, and no diffi- culty in getting the raw material. 359. What would they make the paper of? — All the materials that are now used, such as wood fibre and others. 360. Ireland is not a wood-producing country? — No, but it can get materials upon as good terms as other places ; the rags of Ireland are going to America ; we can buy esparto grass, which comes from Spain, Morocco, and Tunis, just as reason- ably in Ireland as they can in England. 361. But Ireland itself would not provide the wood pulp for paper-making ; would it ? — We might make the wood pulp ; there are many parts of Ireland that would grow larch woods. There is a material which ought to be admirably adapted Captain Aylmer — continued, for making low-class brown paper, if peat moss be brought into extensive use : they did attempt to make paper from peat fibre once, but it did not then succeed. 361.* But the felting power of the peat would not be good enougli, would it, for paper-making? — There would be enough felting power in it "if properly treated : straw does not make good paper, but it does make paper, and would make good paper if it were used with small quantities of esparto. 362. Bcsidas the rags, we could not compete for a time, I take if, until the forests grew in Ireland, with the wood pulp factories of Switzer- land and Sweden ? — No ; but we can buy the pulp. 363. Is there any plant that you think would be ca])able of being grown upon the barren parts of Ireland, which would produce a good fibre for paper-making? — I do not think there is: but will you allow me to observe that Belgium does not produce its wood pulp, although the greater part of the paper made in Belgium, and exported to this country, is, I believe, made of wood pulp. 1 do not see, therefore, why we should not be in that respect upon a footing of equality with Bel- gium, which gets its raw material from Germany. 364. You mentioned a point also with regard to the making of glass ; is it not the fact that the glass, sand, and flints, which are brought from France, are also to be found in Ireland ? — Flints only occur in the north-east of Ireland, deposits of sand are found here and there ; at one time they washed clay in the neighbourhood of Cork ; gaps are sometimes found in the Irish limestones, which are filled with a deposit of clay mixed with sand : in some cases it was saleable, and was sent out; it was not a very great success there, but in the county Donegal they have a mountain glass sand, the history of which is rather peculiar. Dr. Lyons, 365. Is that at Muckish ?— Yes ; one of the Messrs. Chance asked me once if we had any glass sand, and I said we had at Muckish ; they asked me if I could get a sample for them. I consulted Dr. Ritchie, of Belfast, and Dr. Ritchie got five tons sent over, and Messrs. Chance, of Birmingham, converted it into glass, and they found it good. Then came the question of price, so Dr. Ritchie went to deal with the land- lord, and he told him his grandfather had let it for 30.?. a ton royalty, and he would let him have it at the same price. At that time Messrs. Ciiance were getting Fontainbleau sand delivered at Bir- mingham for, as well as I remember, 15 s. a ton. 366. You spoke of the marble found in Ire- land, and you said that Ireland was wanting in skilled tradesmen to work the marble artistically? —Yes. 367. You are acquainted, of course, with the library of Trinity College, Dublin ? — Y'es. 368. Are you aware that all that beautiful marble and stone ornamentation was done by Irish labour ? — Yes. 369. That it was left entirely to them to put on their own ornamentation ? — Yes. 370. What has become of those labourers? — Some went to Oxford, and did the museum there ; they SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 21 May 1885.] Mr. SOLLIVAN. [ Continued. Dr. Lyons — continued. they went to various places, and they got scat- tered about ; there was a perfect school of them at that time ; part of the school of wood- carving was due to the late Lord Dunraven, who executed Adare Manor entirely by the ordinary workmen of the town of Adare ; he got them small portions of wainscotting ; bought in Belgium, and they completed it; and no- body is able to find, except by au examina- tion of the age of the wood, the difference be- tween the two carvings. The stone carving of Adare Manor was executed in the same way by the Adare tradesmen, and it is chiefly from that school of art, if I may call it so, that Sir Thomas Deane got his workmen for Oxford, and some of them went to Dublin. There is one man who is indirectly, at all events, of that school, who is a real freehand sculptor, who execures carvings direct without any model or design. 371. Your answer is, that if Sir Thomas Deane had now to execute a monument at Ox- ford he would not be able to find the workmen in Ireland ? — No, I would not say that, because there is a great deal of difference between a con- tractor finding one man here and another there, and a trade in artistic marble -work ; the mere working by Sir Thomas Deane upon one or two buildings would not be enough to keep a trade of that class in the country. I was alluding rather to a marble trade, such as is conducted in Namur and the eastern parts of Belgium, where they work a good deal of marbles found in the valleys of the Meuse and its tributaries, which are just like our mountain limestone, and of the same geological age ; there they have a great industry ; they export altar-pieces and chimney-pieces, and they have beaten out not only the Irish marbles but, to a large extent, the Derbyshire marbles. 372. Would you like it to appear in your evi- dence that if a capitalist did desire to imitate the Belgian marble mantelpiece work he could not get skilled labour in Ireland to do it? — I should not like to have that go out, because I think if he took the trouble he could get it in a very short time. Colonel Nolan. 373. Do you know anything about the kelp trade ? — I do, but it is extinct. 374. Do you mean the separation of the chemi- cals from the kelp or the collection of them ? — No, not the collection, but the chemicals ; the potash, which is one of the constituents of it, is got now from North Germany, from the great Stassfurt mines ; but the chief product of the kelp burning is the iodine, which has come largely into use in the last few years. 375. That is only in the last few years? — That is so. 376. Is that increase permanent, do you think ? — I think the use of iodine is enormously increas- ing, and the demand for it must rise. 377. Do you think the collection of the kelp may be an important trade in Ireland again ? — I think it ought 378. What price do you say it might rise to for a ton of red kelp ; might it rise to 6 /. a ton ? — I think not. 0.98. Mr. Leake. 379. What price is it at present? — I do not know. 380. Say 4 /. a ton ? — It may be so. Colonel Nolan. 381. At present it is low, on account of the low price of iodine? — That is the chief constituent; and also, secondly, the compounds of potash, which are a very important constituent. 382. Were you acquainted with the rami- fications of that trade ; were not there only two or three buyers in Ireland for that kelp? — Yes ; that made an important difierence. 383. I believe that the kelp requires a very large chemical work to apply it profitably ? — No, not necessarily at all ; there was no reason at all why a chemical factory like that should not have succeeded in Galway; the making of iodine does not require a very big place. 384. I thought there were so many products in kelp, that it required large chemical works to utilise all the products? — Where kelp is used, as distinguished from sea-weed, there are only two products ; there are two salts oi' f)otash ; I call them only one product, and iodine ; these are the only two things that would require any outlay. 385. Why is the iodine so much cheaper now? — Because so much of it is got from other sources in different parts of the world. 386. Is it not found in South America? — I believe they have got it in Chili ; they have got it somewhere in the Pampas; they are finding it everywhere like strontian. 387. Do you believe the price of kelp may get up again ? — I believe it will. 388. With reference to the wool trade, have we any facilities in Ireland for developing wool manufactures ? — I think that is the most success- ful of the existing nascent industries of the country. 389. Would you say why there are not more woollen factories in the west of Ireland? — I cannot give any reason, except the one I have given all through, that the people who have capital and would be likely to start a factory of the kind, have not had their attention directed to the matter; many of them are bad Latin scholars and worse Greek ; they are greatly given to reading a play of Corneille at an examination, but they have no knowledge of the elements of chemistry or mechanics, or of those subjects to which they might direct their attention in a practical way; they might, therefore, turn to some business not requiring much knowledge or skill, but not to get up a factory which would require attention, study, and skill. 390. Do you think that there are natural advantages for establishing a wool factory in the west of Ireland ? — I do, and I think it ought to succeed. Now that the wool used in Ireland is not different from that used in England, which is the greatest wool market in the world, and where the trade has entirely changed, the Irish manufacturer would be quite in the same position as he would be in Yorkshire ; he would be quite as well off, except that one small manufacturer would be in a great difficulty as regards the dyeing, because one small factory cannot be ex- pected to dye properly ; it would require special c 3 skill 22 MINUTtS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 Mcuj 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Colonel Nolan — continued. skill for the dyeing. It is just what Mr. Willan> ■vvho had a factory at Island Bridge, near Dublin, where he made broad cloth as distinguished from blankets and things of that kind, said many years ago, that the great cause of his failure was the want of neighbours, because one factory could not keep all the finishing processes going. 391. Could he clean the wool? — Yes, he could do that, but the larger his factory the more profit he could get out of it. 302. I think thei'e are one or two bag manu- facturers established in Ireland ?— Yes, there are. 393. Is that a manufacture that would suit the country? — Yes; it is just the kind of manu- facture that could be very easilj^ taught, and it would not take a vei-y large amount of money to teach the people to spin the yarn. 394. Is there a difficulty with Irish workmen, when they are taken at cheap wages, that they want the same wages as are paid in England as soon as they learn the trade ? — The great mis- fortune of the Irish workmen is their connection with the trade guilds. 395. So that the real evil of that there is as soon as they are trained, they want to get the same wages as the English workman ? — They are in connection with them ; they are governed to a large extent by the rules of English trade societies. 396. Can you suggest any remedy for that state of thinps ? — It is one of the things upon which I would appeal to their own patriotism, but you cannot get them to do it in that way. 397. Do you think that mere patriotism would teach a man to work for a shilling a day less wages than his compeer ? — If he were a properly educated workman he would soon find that he had not the skill of a man who had all his life devoted himself to one single branch. 398. But the same difficulty occurred in Lon- don with regard to the iron ship-building trade ; they wanted the same wages as were paid on the Clyde ? — Just the same thing. 399. Therefore it is not peculiar to Irish work- men, is it ? — It is not peculiar to Irish workmen, neither that nor the strikes; they are not peculiar to us. 400. Has not there been this difficulty about the flour mills in Ireland ; has not there been a great importation of flour from America during the last three or four years as against the former importation of wheat ? — Yes ; the flour industry nearly went to the wall, and it has been saved by a few large men transforming their system entirely. 401. Are they getting the wheat in now in- stead of the flour ? — Yes. 402. Where is that the case? — In Cork. 403. Does it require a complete transformation of the machinery ? — Yes, a complete transforma- tion. 404. And it would be a great evil if this milling trade were driven out of Ireland, for many reasons ? — For many reasons. 405. The offal of the wheat would be lost, and many other things? — That is a most im- portant point. Mr. Ewart. 406. With reference to the flour business, is it not rather a growing business ; are we not doing more at milling in Ireland than we were ? — Yes ; for a short period the milling recovered from the former depression ; then a new de- pression set in, and this is now a new recovery, because some intelligent millers went into the matter and transformed their whole machinery and their whole business to meet the new state of things. 407. Is it not found in this country, where there is such a variety of wheat, Australian, Californian, Indian, and English, that by a mixture they can produce a better flour than they can do in America, where they have not the same varieties ? — Undoubtedly, with the ex- ception of some of the flour of California ; most of the flours of America are too starchy, they want gluten ; whereas these very flours you spoke of are rich in gluten, like the old Irish wheat, and they give a far better material for bread making and for everything else. 408. Are you hopeful about the milling trade in Ireland ? — I am ; it depends entirely upon the skill and judicious application of plant and capital. 409. With regard to the cultivation of flax in the south and west of Ireland, I understood you to say that it would be advantageous if flax were more extensively grown there ? — I did. 410. Can you suggest any means whereby they could grow it ? — There is no use in growing flax unless you have a mai'ket, it is the market that fails ; there have been only a few mills, and unfortunately both the flax mills that we have in Cork are idle. The buyers have it in their own hands to oflPer any price they like ; one of the reasons why it has succeeded with you is that you have regular markets with a great number of buyers. 411. My idea was thatit would have been much better to send the flax up to Belfast market where they would have got the full value of it? — But they cannot send small lots. 412. Is not there a great difficulty in the want of knowledge of the treatment and growth of flax ?— There is. 413. How would you supply that? — It was once supplied after it had died out. A great deal of flax was grown at one time in the south before 1822, since then there was not the same bulk of flax produced ; but I think it was as widely diff'used in Munster and Connaught as it is in Dlster now; it was a home manufacture. It was re-introduced in 1850 and 1851, by sending round agricultural teachers ; we got a number from Belgium, and from the north of Ireland, who went round and showed the fiirmers how to grow flax. 414. Supposing private enterprise could not supply instruction, would it not be the proper thing for the Government to give some instruc- tion in Ireland in such a branch ? — In the report Mr. Woodall referred to, I pointed out one of the ways in which that instruction should be given, and I think that is one of the ways in which the Government might do good, namely, by sending out instructors ; and they would have had SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTKIES (IRELAND). 23 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Ewart — continued, had those instructors if the Glasnevin School had, years ago, been made a normal school, be- cause the teachers of agriculture, who are now paid by results for teaching agriculture in the small schools, would, by this time, have been able to have effected a real revolution in the schools. Mr. Sexton. 415. You are speaking of 30 years ago, are you not ? — I am. Mr. Justin McCarthy. 416. That was in 1851, was it not ? — Yes, the years 1851 and 1852. Mr. Ewart. 417. With regard to the woollen trade, I have heard it said that the merchants and traders are not what you call patriotic ; that they do not push Irish wools as you think they ought to do ; that prominence is not given to them. If I wish, as I do wish, to get Irish cloth, I do not know where to get it. When I was at Cork I got some, but it is not put forward at all ? — That is one of the difficulties of trying to raise a trade artificially ; the shopkeepers get a greater profit for all their stuffs by dealing with the warehouse in Leeds or Bradford. 418. That is what I have heard ; they will not take the trouble to buy their woollens in their own country ; how could they be educated into doing that? — There are many ways in which that might have been done ; they might have co- operated and started the sale of it themselves. If several of the manufacturers were to co-operate and sell their own productions, they would soon have the shopkeepers patriotic enough at home. 419. But they cannot be botli wholesale and retail ? — But they can get somebody to do it for them ; still it is a great difficulty, I admit. 420. I have lieard several times, on making inquiries from commercial travellers, that the shopkeepers do not support the home manufac- ture in buying the Irish woollens ; that they will not give the preference to them? — There is also that which I have alluded to already, the through rate, and until lately, what was called the " smalls " rate. Colonel Nolan. 421. Did not some of the Irish workhouses find a difficulty in getting Irish blankets when they tried to get them ? — Yes, I believe they did. 422. And they had in some cases to take English blankets after they had tried to get Irish blankets ?— Yes ; when the experiment was first made there was a difficulty about it. 423. It was owing to the sudden call that the difficulty arose ? — Yes, I think so ; people had not been led to prepare for the requu-ement. Mr. Jackson. 424. With regard to the wool you have been speaking about, patriotism is a very good thing ; but people do not usually allow patriotism to stand in the way of getting the greatest profit they can ? — No sound trade can exist upon any other princiijle than that of a business basis. 0.98. Mr. Jackson — continued. 425. Is the wool trade of Ireland a diminishing quantity ? — No. 426. You think it is an increasing quantity ? — At the Cork Exhibition I was particularly sur- prised at the development of it in the course of a few years. 427. You found that it had inci-eased largely ? — Yes ; it has increased largely, and increased in quality of production as well as in quantity. 428. Is this Irish woollen manufacture sold in Ireland, or are the manufactures exported ? — I should say that the better class of them are all exported ; I should say all of them are exported. I know that is the fact in one or two factories ; I know in the south of Ireland a good deal of the production goes to England, and even to Scot- land, and a good deal to America. 429. I suppose a good many woollen cloths are imported into Ireland from Yorkshire and other places ?— I think the tendency is for the article to find the market to which it is best suited ; Irish woollens to go abroad if they are better suited for that market, and Yorkshire woollens to Ireland if they are better suited to the Irish market. 430. You spoke of the difficulty with regard to wages ; that the Irish labourers, after a certain period, asked the same wages as the English labourers ; did I not understand you to say, in your answer to Caj)tain Aylmer, that the Irish workmen connected with the English trade union societies have demanded the same wages, or an equal amount of weekly wages with the English workmen ?— The Irish workman is in many trades entirely under the influence of the English trade societies. 431. Docs he not have as much work as the English workman ? — That would depend entirely upon the trade and the amount of skill he exhibited. 432. Is this piece-work or day-work ? — Day- work. Piece-work is one of the difficulties of Ireland. 433. Is piece-work not very largely adopted in Ireland ? — No. 434. Do you think it would be an advantage if it were ? — Certainly ; I know one trade that was lost from the south of Ireland, simply because the people refused to work upon piece-work. Chairman. 435. What trade was that? — Cabinet-making. Mr. Jackson. 436. I suppose in working by piece-work they would earn more money in a week than by work- ing by day-work ? — If they are mixed up with an industrial population, they will soon learn their business; but when they are in what I call the growing stage of an industry, where they are half educated, and where they are isolated, and if you add to that that they are joined to an English society, they are unable to learn what is good for them. 437. In other words, they have no experience of the larger wages which piece-work would give them ? — No. 438. Y''ou answered some questions about the leather trade, as to which Colonel Ndan put it to you that a considerable proportion of what otherwise would be an imj^ortant trade was lost C 4 to 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [^Continued. Mr. Jackson — continued. to Ireland, by reason of the cattle being exported instead of being killed in the country, and the meat exported. Do you happen to know whether the manufacture of leather has increased in Ireland in the last two or three years ? — It has diminished in the number of tanneries, but not in the quantity of the produce. 439. Are the total number of leathers manu- factured in Ireland as large as they were before? — Yes. Would you allow me to correct an im- pression produced by what I said, namely, that the exportation of cattle had destroyed or caused the loss of the leather trade. I did not say this, and it has not happened ; we actually export a large number of green hides, so that we do not use the whole amount of the material that we could tan. At one time the leather trade was a very extensive one, a number of tanneries being spread through the country, because the cattle were killed for the navy contracts, which have Mr. Jackson — continued, now gone to Hamburg and North Germany ; and that left a large number of green hides in Ireland, many of which were tanned there; but much of tlie material we have at present we do not use. 440. In point of fact, you export a large quan- tity of the hides which are produced in Ireland ? — Yes, we do. 441. And, I suppose, the calf skins also? — Yes. 442. I did not conclude from your answer that you were of opinion that the trade was lost by reason of the absence of raw material ; I thought that was the impression on the mind of the honourable Member who asked the question, but, as a matter of fact, you do not use the raw ma- terial which is at your disposal ; therefore, the trade is not lost by reason of the absence of the raw material ? — That is so. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IKELAND). 25 Monday, Wth May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Jackson, Mr. Kenny. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Leake. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. Mr. Molloy. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Trevelyan. Mr. Whitworth. Sir Eardley Wilmot. Mr. Woodall. Sir eardley WILMOT, in the Chair. Mr. William Kirby Sullivan, ph.d., d.sc, m.r.i.a., was again called in; and Examined. Mr. Kenny. 443. On the last occasion of your examination, in speaking of the wool industry you were of opinion, I think, that the wool industry is one of those which may be more successfully developed in Ireland ? — Yes, 444. You also stated, I think, that the number of sheep in Ireland had been considerably dimi- nished ? — I did not say " considerably," 1 think. 445. But that a considerable amount of wool has to be imported ? — In any case that would be true. 446. What is the nature of the difference be- tween the Irish wool of the present and of former times ; has it imjjroved or deteriorated ? — 'The former wool was of two kinds, the usual long wool and the short. The present wool is also long and short, but it is just the same as it is in England. I should say it has improved ; the staple is longer. 447. Owing to the importation of English sheep ? — It is owing to the importation of English rams especially. 448. And the encouragement of the use of English breeding sheep ? — Yes. 449. You are of opinion that the quality of the wool in Ireland has really improved ? — I think so ; but let me add also that in the present condi- tion of the woollen trade it is a matter of indif- ference where the wool comes from, because every manufacturer mixes his wool to get a uniform tissue. 450. I see that the number of sheep has de- creased by nearly a million in the last 10 years; could you give any reason for that diminution, which represents a diminution in wealth ? — I should say it is connected with the decrease of every description of agricultural produce in Ire- land. 451. Do you know that the decrease of sheep has been also owing to an epizootic disease ? — Yes, to the fluke. 452. Is that also owing to the drainage of the 0.98. Mr. Kenny — continued. country ? — It is, because that disease is absolutely connected with moist or undrained pastures, 453. It is a peculiar fact also that the number of horned animals in Ireland has remained in statu quo for the last 10 years ? — Yes, 454. Has anything really been done to reclaim the land of Ireland in the last 20 or 30 years ? — Except a few small pieces of arterial drainage ; I take it that your question applies to the arterial rather than to the thorough drainage by the farmers ; with the exception of a few patches of arterial drainage nothing serious has been done, and nothing can be done unless it be done upon a large scale. 455. I believe Professor Tyndall has estimated that, if Ireland were thoroughly drained, the tem- perature could be raised by four degrees ; have you ever devoted any attention to that subject? — Whether the temperature could be elevated to that extent I could not say ; but I am quite satis- fied that if the central plain, which really is the coldest part of Ireland, were ^drained to a large extent, and also partially planted, the mean temperature of the year would be seriously raised, though, perhaps, not to the extent which you mentioned. 456. But it would be raised to some extent, which would be a great national advantage ? — It would. 457. Are you aware that, at the present moment, there are a considerable number of small woollen manufactories in Ireland ? — Yes ; there were 28 represented at the Cork Exhibition. 458. And that even in those small mills they have a thorough process of preparing and finish- ing the whole material in their small looms ; you are aware of that, are you not? — Yes; I was very much surprised to find the good quality of their finish, as well as of the whole preparation. Of course the stuffs they made were of a coarser kind; the finer ones would require a higher finish- ing than a single small factory could give ; but D would 26 11 May 1885.] MINUTES OF EVIDENGK TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Sullivan. [^Continued. Mr. Kenny — continued. would you let me add that it is beginning at the right end to make the coarser and simpler fabrics. 459. Are you aware that those people who have engaged in that trade in Ireland sometimes find as a serious impediment to their progress, the want of sufficient capital to develope the works thoroughly ? — Although there is enough capital in Ireland, if it were as I expressed it on the last occasion of my examination, fluid, that is to say, if it were to come into the hands of the small manufacturers, yet everyone knows that absence of credit is one of the great deficiencies of the small manufacturei's. 460. Would you be in favour of State subsi- dies to those persons ? — I do not know. 461. Or loans, repayable in a certain number of years, at easy interest ? — The experiment would be worth trying, but it is one upon which I am rather doubtful; you contemplate some- thing like what is done with the fisheries, I imagine. 462. Yes, something of the same system? — Modified, of course, to suit the particular indus- try ; there is a good deal to be said upon that point, seeing what has been done in the fisheries by a system of loans ; both those of Lady Burdett Coutts and the Government loans, according to the Bills lately passed. 463. I believe, with regard to loans to the fishermen, the result has been singularly satis- factory ? — It has always been so when tried in Ireland. 464. The fishermen have always shown the utmost punctuality in the repayment of their instalment? — I think Mr. Brady, the Inspector of Fisheries, states in his last report, that the interest covers the loss twice ; I have no doubt, if there were a better and simpler system of collecting the money, there would be no loss at all. 465. You are aware that the present system of agriculture in Ireland is almost uniformly that of cattle raising and cattle breeding ; do not you think it would be better if it were possible that a dual system of farming should be introduced, bringing in the more general cultivation of cereals and root crops ? — I go further than that. I say that our agriculture is one of the simplest, and I was almost going to say the most barbarous in Europe, because of the small number of crops that are cultivated. I would certainly think that an increase in the cultivation or the introduction of technical plants, that is to say, plants used in industry, like flax, would be of great benefit to the country. 466. I think Captain Aylmer asked you some questions about peat litter; could you give me some reason why Irish peat litter cannot be manufactured and sold as cheaply in London as German peat litter ? — I do not see any reason why it should not be sold more cheaply or as cheap, at all events, but you must remember that the German system has the advantage of having commenced before the Irish, and got the start, and I believe as regards the Irish peat litter, they have yet to overcome the diflSculty of drying it thoroughly. 467. There is also a diflSculty in the way of railway rates and charges ? — Yea. Mr. Kenny — continued. 468. I believe the railway rate from Kildare to London is greater for a ton of litter than the whole price of the peat litter, together with the freight when sent from Germany? — I should not be surprised, seeing the great difference in the rate from Hamburgh and Harburg to London, and that from some of the Irish ports, or from the inland towns, but I could not actually say whether the fact you state is so ; it would not surprise me if it were. 469. Colonel Nolan asked you some questions about the kelp trade ; are you aware that those who have been buying in Ireland for some years have had the monopoly of that ? — Yes. 470. The North British Chemical Company had the monopoly for some years, and they were paying about 4 /. a ton ; do you think it is worth more than about 4 Z. a ton ? — It is not worth much more now. 471. Of course 3'ou are aware that seaweed is a very good manure for sevei'al descriptions of soil ? — Yes. 472. Do not you think seaweed could be more profitably used, instead of burning it for kelp, by sending it into the interior of the country, if the railway facilities were sufficiently great, to be used for manuring the land ? — Yes, if it were dried. I should say that one of the worst uses it could be put to, economically speaking, would be to burn it. 473. Therefore, you would be of opinion that the seaweed would be more profitably used as manure than if it were burnt for kelp ? — Yes ; provided it could be sold at what is called its chemical worth. 474. Are you aware that some portions of the soil of Ireland are rather well adapted for pottery work ? — Not very well ; we have very few really good clays or extensive beds of it in Ireland ; it is like most of our mineral resources, very poor ; but there are a few places in Ireland where undoubtedly all the materials for pottery exist in abundance, and of good quality. 475. You are aware that the Belleek Pottery Factory failed, if not entirely, yet to a certain extent? — I was given to understand that that factory was still in operation within a very short time. 476. It has been revived recently, has it not? — Yes, it failed some time ago, not through financial difficulties, but simply by reason of the death of the proprietor. 477. So that there is nothing really radically wrong with the factory at Belleek ? — No. 478. Is there any single locality suited for pottery manufacture near the City of Dublin ? — Not for fine pottery ; for pottery, properly speaking, there is, but not for earthenware ; but I may add that, as regards earthenware, we are not worse off in Dublin than they are in Staf- fordshire ; they have to get their clay from the south of England. There is a very large export of clay from the south of England, from Corn- wall, even to Russia and America, so that as far as raw material is concerned, in the modern state of the trade, it is not a matter of impor- tance. 479. Are you of opinion that the cultivation of tobacco might be revived in Ireland with ad- vantage ? — Yes, we can grow leaves, unfortu- nately. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 11 May 1885] Mr. SULLITAN. [ Continued. Mr. Kenny — continued. nately, very well ; but I think, before any large experiment were tried, there ought to be a suffi- ciently large experiment made officially, if I may say so, to try to show the way of growing, and the mode of preparing it when dried. To- bacco being one of the most delicate and difficult plants to grow, in the present state of our agri- culture, 1 should fear that unless there was a good deal of technical instruction given with regard to its growth and preparation, it Would be a failure ; all depends, in fact, upon the pre- paration. 480. Would you be in favour of the prelimi- nary cultivation of tobacco upon Government farms, which would operate as model schools? — It is one of the questions that I am very glad to be asked, because that is the way I think it ought to be done. Mr. Molloy. 481. Tobacco has been grown already in Ire- land ? — Yes, in past times it has. Mr. Kenny. 482. You are aware that there is a good deal of Belgian flax imported to Ireland? — Yes; half the flax the Belgians grow comes into the British and Irish markets. 483. And the Belgian flax commands a higher price than the Irish flax ? — As a rule, the Bel- gians grow a higher quality of flax. 484. Do you know that the scutching is better better carried out in Belgium than it is in Ire- land ? — Undoubtedly. 485. And that improves the value of the flax to a certain extent? — Yes, aad also their soils are lighter than they are in Ireland, and they are better tilled, consequently because they are very light. Moreover, there is a marked dif- ference between the Belgian and Dutch flax and Irish flax, owing to the amount of iron in Irish grown flax of the lower qualities ; but there is no reason why good flax of the value of Belgian and Dutch flax should not be grown in Ireland ; it has been. 486. You were asked some questions about the damage sustained by the cattle in transit ; would you agree with the estimate that damage to the extent of 30 s. a head is done to Irish fat cattle in transit ? — That is a matter upon which I should not like to offer an opinion, because the Committee will get that information better from representatives of the trade ; but I should not be surprised to find that it is correct from the high state of fever in which I have seen cattle arrive at Birmingham. 487. Do you think it would be better to carry on the meat trade as dead meat rather than as live meat between Ireland and England? — That is my opinion, and very strongly too. 488. Are you aware that an ahbattoir was established some time ago in Dublin ? — Yes. 489. It has not been a very great success, I believe ? — There have been considerable difficul- ties in the way of it ; the old habits of the trade are against it. 490. The old habits take some time to era- dicate before anything like the success of a new 0.98. Mr. Kenny — continued. system can be achieved ? — I agree with that, certainly. 491. You were speaking in your evidence of the relative cost of steam and water-power, and I understood you to say that steam was, or might be, cheaper than water-power ? — Yes. 492. Are you aware that in that respect you are in direct conflict with the opinion of Sir Robert Keane and others, whom he cites in hia book, in which he gives it as his opinion that water-power is eight to 10 times less costly than steam; can you account for the difference? — I think he must have had in his mind the water- power after it has been completed, whereas I had in my mind the water-power in a state of nature. If, as I stated in my examination on the last day, the weirs and reservoirs were in existence, undoubtedly then the water-power would be the cheaper. 493. But the cost of erecting the weirs and the reservoirs would make the water-power more expensive, in your opinion, than steam? — In many cases. 494. But there might be a great many in- stances in which water-power might be much cheaper than steam, might there not? — Cer- tainly ; there are some manufactures in which water is to be preferred to steam, because the water would be required in the manufacture itself, and in such cases it might be well worth while to spend money in getting the water-power, because the double purpose would be attained. 495. You are very strongly in favour of a system of technical education ? — I think that is the beginning and end of the whole question. 496. Of course you know the Royal College of Science in Dublin very well? — 1 do. I was present at the taking of the house, and, until I went to Cork, I was a professor at the College. 497. It has never been used to its fullest extent in Dublin, I believe ? — The College i» scarcely used at all by the Dublin people. 498. To what would you attribute that want of appreciation on the part of the Dublin people ? — Partly to the want of knowledge of the existence of the place, and also to the fact that the use of education of that kind is almost un- known in Ireland. 499. I suppose the fact that the kind of edu- cation which was given there was not known to be of any practical use in manufacture, and deterred people from going there ? — I do not know that that would explain their apathy. If people from Dublin had gone to that institution they would have soon supplied that which is the great want of the country, namely, persons properly trained in practical science so as to take up and carry on successfully the manufactures of the country. 500. Do you think that the Queen's Colleges might be turned to good account as high-class polytechnic schools in the counties in which they are ? — The Queen's Colleges fulfil that function to a certain extent even now. 501. But that might be developed, might it not ? — I have endeavoured to develop it in my own college. I can also state that a good many good results have come from the engineering schools, in fact, the engineering school of the D 2 Queen's 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued^ Mr. Kenny — continued. Queen's Colleges is the nucleus of the technical instruction of the higher class ; it has only to be enlarged. 502. Do you think that the present system of agricultural teaching which is adopted in the primary schools is sufficient for the requirements of the people ? — No. 503. That it might be greatly improved? — The first thing you have to do is to teach the teachers, which has never been done. 504. Now, going back for a moment to the College of Science, were there, at any time, evening lectures or classes for artizans at the College of Science?— Yes; I lectured for a great many years myself upon the application of chemistry to the arts. 1 have given lectures upon dyeing and tanning, and other industries carried on in Dublin, which were very well at- tended. 505. Lectures of that kind are not in opera- tion now, are they ? — Our lectures were voluntary lectures given by Professor Jukes and myself; they formed no part of the scheme. Evening lectures of a similar class are given now, and I think they are also voluntary. 506. You are in favour of a system of agricultural conferences ? — I recommended them in a report which I made. 507. Have you had any experience of the effect which local agricultural shows have had in improving the breed of cattle, and in improving agriculture generally in Ireland ? — Yes, I have taken a great deal of interest in the Cork Agri- cultural Society, for example, I was its pre- sident for one year, so I know its working very well, and I know the effect it has had in the country. I am in favour of small ones also operating in connection with the bigger ones. 508. I think that in your report to the Tech- nical Education Commission you recommended conferences of farmers' wives and daughters ? — Yes. 509. Do you really think that would be practi- cable ? — It would depend on the spu-it in which it was taken up. I have no doubt of this, that unless you get the aid and assistance of the people themselves, any attempt to teach them from the outside or downwards will not succeed. 5 10. But do you think, from your experience of farmers' wives and daughter*, that any experi- ment of that kind would be likely to be success- ful ? — If it were tried in a few places, and taken up by the parish priests, I have no doubt it would. 511. You think that the parish priest might exert a useful influence in that respect ? — Yes, I do. 512. Do not you think that the free dissemina- tion of literature amongst the population would have the same effect? — I do not think it would have the same effect. The suggestion has occurred to me from seeing what the effect has been of the Munster Dairy School, where the result upon the girls who have attended it has been extraordi- nary. 513. I suppose you are aware that butter- making in Ireland has ceased to be as profitable as it was ; is that owing to the deterioration of Irish butter, or is it owing to the successful corn- Mr. Kenny — continued, petition from abroad?— It is owing a good deal to the latter, and also to the deficient preparation in Ireland. 514. But are you of opinion that Irish butter has not deteriorated in quality in any way ? — I think Ireland ought to produce the best butter in the world, if the farmers knew how to make it up to the mark. 515. Are you aware that a good many are of opinion that even at the present time Irish butter, in the season, is very much the best butter in the world ? — I believe that that is the case. 516. It is in winter time that the German and Danish butters are better than the Irish butters ? — In those countries they carry on winter dairy- ins:-, which we do not in Ireland. I went into an elaborate calculation for the report 1 am making for the Cork l^lxhibition upon that ques- tion, and I found that the average price of Danish, Swedish, North German, and French butters has been raised by the fuct that they carry on their butter-making through the winter. 517. Do you think that winter dairying might be carried on in Ireland to any extent? — Yes, certainly. 518. And you would be in favour of changiug the season partially in Ireland with that view ? — I would be in favour of carrying on butter-making and inducing farmers to adopt winter dairying as well as dairying in eummer. 519. Have you turned your attention to the question of ensilage ? — Yes, I have. 520. Do you think that ensilage might be used with success in the feeding of cattle in Ireland ? — Yes, certainly. 521. And that would facilitate the changing of the dairying season in Ireland? — Yes; we are not worse off than any of the countries I have named ; in fact, we are rather better ; our winter is less severe, and there appears to be no reason whatever why we should not have winter dairying as well as summer dairying. 522. Do not you think that one of the draw- backs to the making of butter in summer is that the dairy-houses in which the butter is made are very defective ? — That is the chief drawback. 523. And it would be necessary, in order to the successful manufacturing of butter in Ireland, that the dairy-houses should be improved?— Certainly ; some of them have none at all ; at the same time I think something might be done in the way of co-operation amongst the smaller farmers to induce them to work in common. I am one of those who believe that small farms are destined to increase rather than diminish. 524. I suppose you are aware that at the pre- sent time there is a good deal of co-ojjeration amongst the peasantry ? — Not in any part of the country that I know of, to the extent that it ought to be. 525. You spoke of the Glasnevin Farm, and stated that, in your opinion, it ought to be con- verted to better use than it is ? — It ought to be a normal school for teachers. 526. You think that the Glasnevin Farm ought to be converted from its present purpose to a technical school for national teachers ? — Yes ; it also ought to be used for several of the purposes SELECT COMMITTEE ON INbtfSTRIES (lEELANt)). 29 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [^Continued. Mr. Kenny — continued, purposes for which it is now used ; but its main object ought to be the teaching of the national teachers who have to teach agriculture. 527. I believe there is no high-class college for the teaching of gentlemen farmers in Ireland at the present time, such as the Agricultural College of England ?— No. 528. Do you think that a college of that kind would be successful in Ireland ? — For some time it would not ; but if it were kept on it would ultimutely succeed. 529. If the Government helped a college of that kind at the beginning, doyou think it would even- tually succeed? — I believe it would; but, unfortu- nately, whenever any tiling of that kind is got up in Ireland it is sure to get attacked for all its faults, and there is a considerable economy about saying anything in favour of its benefits. it formed part, I may say, of the scheme which I drew up for the Dairy School in Cork, to use the same farm and establishment also for a higher school in agriculture, but that portion of it has not been carried ovit. 530. There is no veterinary college in Ireland, is there ?---That v^^as another part of the scheme. 531. You think it is very regretable that there is not a veterinary college in Ireland? — I think it is a most extraordinary fact that there is not. I took a good deal of pains, and wrote a pamphlet, of which the greater portion is in print, upon the subject, as part of the scheme to whicli I alluded, but nothing has been done about it since. Mr. Mollorj. 532. With regard to the technical education of the Queen's College, how far is it theoretical, and how far is it practical ? — Hitherto it has been altogether theoretical, save in so far as survey- ing is concerned, and the use of instruments for that purpose. 533. You have no working laboratories there, have you ? — We have a small physical labora- tory; as far as Cork is concerned, we have an instrument maker; he has a workshop and tools provided by the college, and he is at liberty to make apparatus for people outside, upon condi- tion of allowing the engineering students to visit his workshop whenever they like, but no syste- matic instruction up to this time has been given in the use of tools. 534. But apart from the question of tools, the laboratory there is purely what might be called a small scientific laboratory ? — Quite so ; we have a chemical laboratory and a pliysical one, both. 535. But there is no instruction given on a large scale from a practical point of view, nor is there any means of carrying that out? — We have neither the room nor the apparatus, nor the money (o provide either. 536. If you wished to give any instruction in chemical manufacture of this kind, there is no me.ans of doing it, except from books ? — Except from books ; and so far as the basis of any chemical industry can be shown in an ordinary phemical laboratory ; and you can go very far in that respect. 537. You can show the reactions, and so forth; but you cannot give any instructions beyond that, can you ?— Yes ; take gas-making; we could 0.98. Mr. Molloy — continued, show the illuminating power and mode of mea- suring it, and the mode of making analyses of the gases themselves, which would practically be the greater part of the technical instruction re- quired for the purpose; we can do that. 538. But you have not the large apparatus for measuring the illuminating power of gas or different lights, have you ? — Yes, we have got so far as that ; and we have apparatus for testing cements, and a number of things of that kind ; we are not entirely deficient in them, yet jiracti- cally, I may say, we have not the necessary equipment for the higher technological teaching ; the few things we have do not amount to very much. 539. I suppose you will agree with me that without those assistances you can but give a theoretical education? — We cannot give a really good one. I have tried to form lately a technical museum of raw materials, to which I attach great importance : that is another step in the right direction. 540. A student who had passed through the course and was going, say, into the manufacture of acids, or chemicals, or anything else of the kind, would have to learn the practical part of his business after he left you, would he not ? — He would; but he would be fitted by his scientific knowledge to learn the practical part in a short time. 541. I suppose, generally, through Ireland, with regard to technical education, that may be taken to be the state of if? — That is rather an advanced state of it, for there is nothing else. 542. That is the maximum ?— That is the maximum. 543. Now apply that to the agricultural edu- cation of the country ; how far would that be purely theoretical ? — It is equally so ; very few male students attend our dairy school ; we have made ever so many modifications in the rules for the purpose of inducing the farmers to send their sons ; we have converted it into a winter school to meet the case of farmers who will not send their sons during the summer time or during the time that they want them at home, but it has not been very successful. We have rather a difficulty in Ireland in this respect, that we have to contend with the bad reputation that some of the agricultural schools hitherto in oper- ation have earned, they have earned that bad re- putation because the localities took no interest in them ; therefore, of course, the schools were in- effective and never did any good. The farmers I think, too, do not believe in theoretical agriculr ture except where they see now the dairy school in operation ; but, while our school is full for women, it has very few boys ; every place is taken up by the women. 544. Then you are well acquainted with the Dutch and Belgian agricultural schools ? — Yes ; some years ago I had been through most of them. 545. How far would the introduction of such schools into Ireland go towards introducing a better state of agriculture? — I think their sys- tem, or at least a system modelled on them, would undoubtedly be a system of considerable utility, but I do not believe that we can have in Ireland what takes place in those countries, unless the localities take the matter up for themselves. » 3 546. But 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 Mny 1885.1 Mr. Sullivan. \_Continued. Mr. Molloy — continued. 546. But those schools have been established for a long time in Belgium and Holland, have they not? — Our agricultural schools are of older date than most of those. Most of the great German systems which have been so well described lately in the Report of the Technical Education Commission, and which I described in a Report upon Agricultural Schools, in an appendix to the Report on Primary Education, are posterior to some of the schools in Ireland in date. There are many things which have been done in Ireland from which foreigners have come to learn, have gone away and brought them to perfection, while they have died out with us. 547. You were speaking of lectures which you gave in Dublin. I shoidd like to ask you, upon that, what opportunities are given to the mechanic class and the artisan class of Dublin in the way of technical education? — Beyond such lectures as I have spoken of, none ; with regard to those lectures, I may tell you that they were free. We tried a systematic course, giving part of it free and chai-ging 6 d. for part of it, for about 24 lectures, I think, and the attend- ance dropped to one-half upon the payment of 6 rf. 548. That would showthatit wasnotthe artisan class that was attending ? — It was the artisan class who paid the 6 d., and not the other. 549. Practically, no assistance in technical instruction is given to the mechanic and artisan class in Dublin? — None, beyond the lectures. 550. And now have they ceased ? — No, they are lecturing at this moment, for instance, on biology. 551. I was informed, in reply to a question, that there are free libraries in Dublin, contain- ing books such as would be useful to the mechanic and artisan class ? — Yes ; free libraries have beeu established recently by the corpora- tion, and anybody who wanted to consult a book or any branch of technology, would find at the College of Science one of the best-selected libraries in Europe of that kind. 552. Is that library open ? — The library is open to every student of the college, and in my time, undoubtedly, it was open to any inquiring artisan. 553. But not open, in the ordinary sense of the word, to the public ? — No, because it is a very small place ; they are very small rooms. 554. Beyond that what library is open ? — There is the National Library. 555. What restrictions are placed there upon the free use of the library by the artisan classes? — I think not any ; formerly it required the introduction of a member of the Royal Dublin Society, when they considered it to be their library, but under the new arrangement it is now considered the National Library of Dublin. I am not aware of any restriction upon admis- sion, because it is open till 10 o'clock at night. Mr. Sexton. 556. I think you must have an order of admis- sion still ?— -I fancy the order is not very difficult to get. Mr. Molloy. 557. Take the Patent Library in London, where you simply walk in and sign your name, and have the free use of the books and patent records, not only of this country, but of every other country ; there is nothing of that sort in Dublin, is there ? — No, but the Patent Office furnish many of the libraries in Ireland with copies of their patents. 558. Of the English patents ? — Of English patents only ; in Cork they are furnished to the corporation; they were sent to an old lumber room, but they have now been partially set up ; we have been providing a special room for them in the new buildings, the Cork Municipal Buildings for Science, Art, and Music ; but access must be given, under the terms upon which those copies are granted, to anybody who applies, and so far Dublin is provided with them. I do not know that they are in a very convenient place in Dublin, but I think they will be when the new library is built. 559. What I wanted to ascertain was whether practically the scientific libraries of Dublin were open to the working classes as free as they should be ? — They are not. 560. You spoke of cottage industries ; have you made any suggestions as to the method of working cottage industries ? — Not beyond those that I have suggested in the short draft of a scheme for technical education. 561. You mentioned just now the mineral wealth of Ireland as being very poor ? — It is very poor ; a geological map would show how that is. 562. Take pyrites, for example, what is that doing ? — The pyrites trade began in Ireland, flourished and died a natural death from the introduction of the Spanish pyrites. In 1883, which is the last year in which I took any statistics, because that happened to be the year of the Cork Exhibition, the total amount of pyrites sent from Wicklow was only 12,000 tons; they are only sent from the Vale of Avoca. 563. That is the only place that is working now ? — Yes ; that is the only place that is work- ing now. 564. Do they only sell their jiyrites here ? — They use a portion in Dublin, and they use a portion at the Wicklow Manure Company, which owns some mines ; but I was speaking of the exported portion as being 12,000 tons. 565. In what way do you use it in Ireland ? — For vitriol ; you have a very fair manufactory of chemical manure at Wicklow, and a portion also goes to the manufacturers of manure in Dublin. 566. Beyond the Wicklow field, there is no iron in the country except upon a small scale ? — I should have expected that it was on a small scale, though I was gratified to hear from Captain Aylmer that there existed somewhere or other in the west and north-west of Ireland a great deposit of cupriferous pyrites, just like the Huelva ore, containing 1 to 2 per cent, of copper ; I should be glad to know where it occurs. 567. Now, with regard to the gold, what would you say as to that? — That has only a scientific and historical value. 568. I do not know whether it is merely that; take, for instance, the end of the last century, when SELECT COMMITTED ON INDUSTRIES (iEELAND). 31 11 May ISSS.] Mr. Sullivan. \_(Jonti7iued. Mr. Molloy — continued, when the Avoca fieLds were first discovered ; it is the fact, is it not, tliat the peasants, in the course of a few weeks there, picked up 3,000 I. worth of gold ? — At the present moment ; at least, when I was perfectly acquainted with that district and in the habit of going there, gold to the value of about 800/. a-year came, and I should fancy still comes from that district. 569. Do you mean picked up by the peasants there, or under a systematic working ? — No, not under systematic working ; on the contrary, it is most unsystematic, but they get an annual sum ; it is very difficult to ascertain how much it is exactly, because they do not either like you to see their operations or to give you the gold, for fear, I suppose, it might be seized by the Crown, or something of that kind. 570. As it was at the end of the last century? — Yes. Gold mines are the property of the Crown, but nobody disturbs them in the matter. I have seen them washing for gold, and have got specimens of the gold along with the tin which accompanies it, but the workings are very small. I fancy there is very little except at the lower end, it may be, of the river, where it joins the main river at Avoca Bridge, there may be some in the clay that is deposited there. 571. Still all that would be evidence, would it not, that there exists there gold-bearing ore, at some distance up, at either side of the stream ? — : One mining company which worked lead, in one of the rivers in which the gold was found, tried to get gold, and they shoded the whole hill, that is they cut a trench along it, and they did get u quantity of gold sufficient to make rings for the directors, but I do not know that they got any more. 572. But all the attempts which have been made have failed from want of capital; is not that so? — At one time there were some persons that I knew of who were able to put capital into it, though perhaps not enough, and they did not do very much; they wanted to wash the whole of the little delta between the two rivers, and probably they would find some gold there, but it is not extensive enough, and I do not think it would pay to work it. Of course I am only giving you my individual opinion. 573. You know there are persons who are well acquainted with it who maintain that there is as much gold in Ireland as there is in New Zealand ? — I have heard many opinions upon it, but all that 1 have heard does not change my view, looking at it as a geologist. The same thing might be said of another locality where many records of gold mining in Ireland were found, that is, in the County Limerick ; they had a bronze and a gold forge, and made a num- ber of articles upon the sjjot from the native gold ; but they only got traces of it in mountains which I know every foot of, and I should not recommend anybody to lose his money in looking for gold there. 574. You do not think that the mineral wealth of Ireland is of much importance ? — It was of importance formerly, because it kept a certain number of people employed ; but now to compete in the way of pyrites with the Huelva mines would be out of the question. Why the im- portation from that district alone into Great 0.98. Mr. Molloy — continued. Britain is moi-e than about 10 or 15 years of the importation from Ireland in its most prosperous times ; it is something enormous, because the cinder, after taking out the sulphur, yields both copper and gold and silver, and then serves as an iron ore. With all these advantages taken together, our pyrites' mines must be said to be very poor ; in fact, you may say that their day is past, except for local work. A good many of our minerals, if we had skill and enterprise in the localities, might serve to foster industry as they do in similarly situated countries ; but, for large exportation, I think you may say we have no minerals. 575. Take pyrites, the manufactui-e of sul- phuric acid from that would be very useful to the country, the cost of transport from here being exceedingly great? — We do not import much sulphuric acid from England ; most of it is made in Ireland ; there is a good deal of it manu- factured in Dublin, Wicklow, and even in Cork. With regard to pyrites, I may remark that we are an importing country now, instead of an ex- porting country ; we import Spanish pyrites to a very large extent into Cork, Dublin, and Bel- fast. 576. Do you find it cheaper than using the native ore, even allowing for the expense of transit ? — Yes, because they export the cinder. I do not know any place in Ireland where they work the cinder up. Mr. Cropper. 577. You spoke of the unjust action of this country in former years which drovp out the industries of Ireland; I presume that has all ceased in this century? — The immediate effect of it may be said to be outside this century, but occasionally there is a little evidence of it. I remember one case when I was a boy with regard to the Cork soap trade with the West Indies, which was extinguished in a very rapid manner by the issuing of an Order in Council that the boxes of soap which were sent generally from Ireland in packets of a certain size, should not be admitted ; it applied to the ships then on the sea; it was one of those Orders that were made without any reference, I suppose, to the actual state of trade as it then existed ; but it had the effect, at all events, of practically putting an end to the Cork soap trade. 578. Is there any other instance which you can give of legislative action during this century which has destroyed Irish trade ? — Not perhaps by commission, but by omission ; there is a re- markable instance, for example, with regard to the effect of successive Commissions on Irish Fisheries, which is very curious. The fisheries in Ireland were almost dead in 1819 ; they were practically dead. I think the Return that was made showed 27 vessels fishing in that year, and a Commission was appointed consisting of a good many members, and in consequence of their action bounties were given which brought up the fisheries in a most amazing way in a few years ; the effect of that Commission was something quite marvellous up to 1824. In the meantime Parlia- ment determined to do away with all bounties, the Scotch having fully succeeded in realising all the benefits that could be got out of the system. d4 The 32 MINCTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Coiitinued. Mr. Cropper — continued. The bounties were abolished^ that abolition being applied to Ireland ; the bounties were to cease in the year 1830 ; they were to gradually decrease from 1824 to 1830, and the effect of that was to arrest the whole of the growth of the fisheries, and leave them in a paralysed state in 1830; so much so that in five years after it was found necessary to have a Select Committee of the House of Commons inquiring into their state. 579. "Would you consider that the doing away with bounties was an unjust action under the cir- cumstances to the country ? — I think under the circumstances it was, because having been found to be successful when applied, they should have been allowed to be continued a certain number of years, and then decreased gradually after that period. 580. You are aware that large grants have been made from England to Ireland at different times in connection with fishing harbours ? — In a haphazard kind of way from time to time, and with a great deal of difficulty. 581. But there have been such grants? — Yes, there have been such grants. 582. Yet their success has been always doubt- ful ; nil, I may say? — No, I should say not of themselves, but combined with other circum- stances : I think investigation would show that many of those harbours were not placed in the right place. Some of the places were unconnected with high roads, so that there was no means of getting the fish off, because you must remember there is a greatdeal of difference between bringing fish from Yai-mouth or Great Grimsby and from the West of Ireland to places where the fish are wanted. 583. Have you no home market in the large towns of Ireland ? — No, we have no home market. 584. Are not the large towns consumers offish in Ireland? — No, for the simple reason that the fisheries have been always in such a variable condition that the people did not eat the quantity offish they would have done if it were a constant article of food in the market at a cheap or moderate rate. 585. Is this your argument, that the Govern- ment grants have not been sufficient ? — I do not say they were not sufficient, but that they were given out in an irregular and long-continued way ; that there has been no big scheme of pro- viding harbours once for all upon a proper scale, and under circumstances that would secure that they were properly placed and properly directed. 586. Quite as much as in other parts of the country. England has not done more for her own fisheries than for yours, has it? — Not at all. What necessity is there (or her doing anything for Great Grimsby or Lowestoft f 587. Take Scotland, for example? — That is exactly where they have done it. If I had thought I should have been asked the question, I could have gone into full details of what Scot- land has got. At the very time that the Fishery Commission in 1819 was abolished they did the same thing for Scotland, but they continued to grant a good deal of money for the purpose of providing piers and harbours in Scotland. 588. But I think that a great deal more money Mr. Cropper — continued. Avas granted to Ireland than to Scotland for those purposes? — Very likely ; because there was more necessity for the one than the other. If you look at the map you will see the Scotch lochs and fiords afford natural harbours which require very little to adapt them; whereas, on the West Coast of Ireland, there are whole districts, as for example, from the mouth of the Shannon to Galway Bay, entirely without harbours, I believe, with the exception of Liscannor ; that is the only place where a fishing boat of 100 tons might perhaps be able to get into; I doubt, certainly, whether a carrying steamer could get in there. Mr. Sexton. 589. That is a very poor harbour, is it not? — It is a very poor harbour. Mr. Cropper. 590. Have you any other instances to give the Committee in which the legislative action, either by commission or omission, has tended to destroy Irish trade ? — Yes, of omission in this respect ; when any institution is established it does not get time to develop itself. We have to blame ourselves for that too. The Legislature and the people have to share the blame in that ; the latter discounts it, and the former will not let it have time to take root. 591. Could you give the Committee any illustration where that has been a disadvantage ? — Not at the moment, but that is my impression. I am sure that if I had time to look over the matter I should find many cases. 592. You spoke of the falling off of all the industries of Blarney ; is that due to any fault of English legislation ? — It is not due to any fault of special legislation ; the paper trade falling off was due to the same thing as affected the British paper trade generally. 593. But the British paper trade has gone on? — It has gone on ; because, as I stated in my examination on the last day, there were a sufficient number of people who did not go to the wall; the Irish paper trade was a trade almost in an incipient stajre, and the first blow given to it put an end to all the small men. 594. Still, we do import a vast amount of paper ; there would be a home trade in that respect ? — I am very strongly in favour of a paper trade for Ireland : it is one of the in- dustries which, I think, would succeed. 595. And your water power would be a most valuable power for this industry; though I quite differ from you in what you state with respect to it generally? — But paper is just one of the industries which require water for the purpose of manufacture, so that you would get the required water at the same time as you would get the water power. 596. I presume, as regards the materials which are now used for paper manufacture, of wliich two-thirds are fibres which come from abroad, you are as well situated as England for the purpose of importing them ? — We are. I would propose to hand in, when it is printed, a copy of the report I have made on raw materials for the Cork Exhibition, in which you will find that very thing stated. 597. Now, further, with regard to shoes; I believe SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iRELANd). 33 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Cropper — continued. believe very large quantities of shoes and boots are imported into Ireland ? — They are, in very large quantities. 098. And very few indeed made there ; what is the reason of that ? — The revolution which has taken place in the shoemaking trade, consequent on the introduction of machinery, reached us somewhat later than in England. I recollect the introduction of the first machine that was made. I printed the first figure, from an American source, of a shoemaking machine, so that it is a very new thing. The introduction of the shoe- making machine revolutionised the whole trade ; and, of course, naturally the jjoorer makers of the country, without any capital, and without tech- nical instruction in those matters, not having taken up the matter in time, the manufacturers of Northampton were able to get a good grasp of the Irish trade, which we are trying to get back again. 5S)9. Then glovemaking, again, which requires a great deal of the hand work of young women, did not take root in Ireland, did it? — It took root and disappeared. 600. It did not take root, then, did it ? — Yes, it took root well enough. Among the things Limerick was celebrated for were its gloves as well as its lace ; and gloves of a very high class too, for they were always enclosed in walnut shells, v.'hich shows that they must have been very fine. Cork had a very good glove trade, but that is a case which does not speak well for the Irish artisan. The trade left Cork from the difficulty of dealing .with the workpeople, owing to strikes. 601. I am afraid that a good many other trades have been injured by strikes in Ireland? — I said, in my examination on the last day, that we had not more strikes in Ireland than you have in Great Britain. 602. But the strikes in Ireland hit the trade harder? — Yes; one of our difficulties was that a manufacturer had not enough neighbours. When a manufacturer had a strike, the whole business of the district would be paralysed. Mr. Sexton. 603. Those strikes are promoted from England sometimes, are they not ? — They are. Mr. Cropper. 604. Then, with regard to the dead meat trade; you are aware that large quantities of dead meat came up trom Cumberland and the north to the London market? — Yes. 605. I suppose your markets would be as near London as those are ? — I presume the cost of cai'riage would be cheaper. 606. Has there been any attempt on the part of the butchers, or syndicates of farmers, to establish those slaughtering centres ? — No ; the live meat trade is dominant as yet. It would require to have all the steamersrecast, as it were, and all the arrangements for shipping cattle altered, and there is a large interest in the shippers of cattle who do not wish to make a revolution in the trade. All that is against it. That is one of the difficulties ; but there is no doubt that, sooner or later, they will have to carry out the same system. 0.98. Mr, Cropper — continued. 607. I daresay you are aware of the large quantity which is brought from the north of England and Scotland every week in iced vans to London in the shape of dead meat? — Yes, I am aware of that ; I have seen them. I stated on the last occasion that, with the object of encouraging carriage of dead meat and fish in the winter, I got the committee of the Cork Exhi- bition to get over, at their own expense, one of the cold air machines for the purpose of showing it. I may mention that we had it in operation during the whole of the Exhibition, to draw attention to that branch of trade. 608. Then, without troubling you further, I presume we may classify the causes you have given for the failure of the manufacturing trades in Ireland chiefly under the head of, first, the cheap transit M'hich has acted in favour of England as against Ireland? — Yes; but you are to under- stand that I should be very glad to say that is the inevitable result of progress. 609. Next, the want of technical knowledge ? —Chiefly. 610. And the want of cottage industries? — That also. 611. Which does not prevent your people when they come across to Barrow, or Whitehaven, or any other place, becoming very good workers in flax works, jute works, and other places ? — Cer- tainly not. 612. And lastly the strikes? — And the strikes. 613. Would you add that the people have a sort of habit of thinking that they can get more by agitating than by uniting in independent labour ? — You see we have got the habit of agitating, and in that respect I should say wc are about the most advanced countiy in Europe, in point of political education. That was inevit- able from the condition of the country, and, undoubtedly, if the same energy had been dis- played in a technical direction it would have been equally successful, I think. 614. Is it a fair question to ask you, whether you think it is the character of the people, or their circumstances, that aiFects these trades ? — Chiefly their circumstances, but I fancy also there is something in the character of the people. Taken as a whole, wherever they have an oppor- tunity of distinguishing themselves, the people f)refer any higher employment to the actual abour of their hands. 615. Then it is the character of the people rather than their circumstances? — Not alto- gether; that is only in parts of the country, but this must not be forgotten, and it is most im- portant, that the small farmers of the present are the descendants of the gentry of the past. 616. All of them? — Nearly all; the greater part. The successive famines and pestilences of the last two or three centuries have naturally swept away the lower classes, and the pi'esent farmers, I think, represent to a very considerable extent, more than perhaps j'ou could imagine, the descendants of the gentry who were dis- possessed, and who still, 1 regret to say, in one sense, retain many of tlie traditions and instincts of that class. 617. And among those that of disliking labour? — Certainly ; that is labour of the hands. 618. Can you suggest any other part of E Europe 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Cropper — continued. Europe where the condition of the people is in a similar situation to that of the Irish ? — Scarcely. I do not know any other place which aflbi-ds quite a parallel case. 619. I refer to the outward condition of the people ; take north Italy, for instance ? — I am not very well acquainted with it. 620. The poverty is the same, and the absence of minerals, and apparently the want of applica- tion to manufacture ; I refer more especially to Lombardy ? — But in north Italy they have the traditions of centuries, and in the present aspect, I fancy, of science, a good deal of weight is given to hereditary aptitudes. 621. You mean that they have traditions of one sort, and you have traditions of another ? — Yes. 622. But yours are not advantasieous ; is that what you mean ? — In one sense I regret that it is so, and in many others it gives advantages ; we have had no traditions of centuries of con- tinuous industries in Ireland. 623. I gathered from what you said on one or two occasions that you thought Ireland com- pared disadvantageously with other countries, owing to the absence of any protection upon a small scale of its own industries? — I am not in favour of protection ; I do not think that is possible in the present condition of things. If that could be gathered from anything I said, it is rather as an explanation of why certain indus- tries have disappeared than as any suggestion that I would give of the method of recovering them. 624. I am aware, and probably you are also, that in all other countries which I consider similarly situated with Ireland there is protec- tion, and I rather gathered from what you stated that you a little compared the one to the other, to the disadvantage of Ireland?-! used the reference to protection in the sense of explaining why Irish industries have disappeared, but not in the sense of suggesting that protection should now be given to recover them. 625. You think they can recover without pro- tection ? — I do; if they cannot I do not see any chance of their recovery. 626. Or bounties?— Or bounties either; I think the days of bounties are passed. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 627. I am anxious to arrive at the actual recommendations which you would desire to make to the Committee, and perhaps you would let me summarise them in this form, and supply any omissions I may make. In the first place, I understand you to say that for all practical pur- poses you can omit the minerals, and you can omit the water power, of Ireland? — I beg you will not carry my objection to water power too far. 628. But 1 understand you not to lay too much stress upon the possibilities of water power?— Qualifying it to this extent, that for a manufacture requiring water as well as power it is a great advantage to be able to utilize the water for both purposes ; and where water power is already erected, or where coal would be very dear or difficult to get, it would be useful to be able to use the water power which is already prepared, or perhaps economical to fit it up. Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued. 629. Your recommendations I rather gather to be as follows : increased and improved rail- way and other communications, improved culti- vation of the land, reclamation of waste land, the planting of trees, fishing facilities, the introduc- tion of some technical industries, and, above all, increased agricultural and industrial training? — • les. 630. Have you anything to add to those ? — I think your summary embraces them all, only that I should put the last first ; I should begin with the technical education in all its branches; a great system of technical education. 631. J said "above all." Now, as regards communication, I understand the chief complaint is tliat, as far as there is communication already, there is untairness of rates for the native indus- tries as compared to English and foreign? — Scarcely that so much as the unfairness of the rates altogether ; the want of a svstem. 632. I understood you desired that the rail- way system in Ireland should be amalgamated practic;dly under State control? — Yes. 633. Would that not necessitate, in order to improve native industry, that there should be differential and protective railway rates? — Cer- tainly not. 634. How so ? — I do not see in what way it would do it. If you look at our present railway system, taking the year 1883 as an instance, the average returns upon the actual capital expended upon the Irish railways, both in the form of share capital and loans, would give about 3^ per cent. ; some of our railways, the small ones, return nothing; I think 14 or 15 of them give no dividend whatever. I say that if the Govern- ment, or any one representing it, had the whole of those railways in their hand they would be able to make a very large reduction in fares and in freights, and they would be able to give us a better system of rates and fares from the poorer and more remote districts, without affecting in any way whatever the railway system of Great Britain. 635. You mean that the Government, by raising their capital at a cheaper rate, would be prac- tically able to carry the railway system on at no loss, and yet reduce the rates ? — Quite so. Colonel King-Harman. 636. There would also be a reduced staff em- ployed ? — Yes, there would be also a reduced staff and reduced expenses of all kinds ; the rolling stock need not be increased ; in fact there would be a dozen other advantages accruing from the system of amalgamation. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 637. Suppose thei-e were amalgamation, not under the State, but under a voluntary arrange- ment, do you think that would be an advantage or a disadvantage'.' — It might be an advantage, but it would not be the same advantage as where the State took the railways up, because the directors, representing the cajiitalists, would only look to the interests of the capitalists. Take the case of the Post Office, where the Government made a great experiment with the penny postage ; it is only the Government who could do it ; you could not get persons representing the interests of SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 35 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued. of shareholders to make such a bold experiment as that. 638. Would not the object you propose result in pressure being brought to bear upon the Government to place railways or tramways in places where they were not suitable or profitable ? — Just as in the case of the Post Office, where pressure sometimes produces good results ; but if it is not likely to produce good results, Govern- ment generally knows how to resist pressure. 639. You said that everybody was aware of the obstacles to the introduction of light tram- ways, more especially in those places where they were most urgently required ; how would you propose to amend the law so as to remove suffi- ciently the obstacles which have existed hitherto ? — As regards a great part of the country, I think the law is sufficiently amended by a recent Act ; but where it requires amendment is in districts where they could not provide the guarantee, and I instanced a district in which it would be impos- sible to make a railway at the expense of the district. 640. Taking the rail from Clifden to Westport, would you suggest that Government should prac- tically give the guarantee for the whole of the interest ? — I would. 641. You stated that you thought the agri- culture of Ireland miglit be improved; how, otherwise than by increased agricultural educa- tion, do you think it could be improved ? — Only by that means. 642. 1 did not quite understand your answer to a question put to you by Mr. Rathbone ; you stated that there was now less labour applied to the soil than there used to be ; did you mean that the fanners took less care of the land ? — Yes ; because labour is scarce and dear, and they have not the cash to pay for it ; they are therefore obliged to do with very ineffective tillage. Mr. Sexton. 643. And it is also due to emigration, is it not? — Emigration is one of the chief causes of drain- ing great districts of the labouring population. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 644. You mentioned reclamation of land as one of your suggestions ; seeing that so much land is going out of cultivation year by year, how could It possibly answer financially for the benefit of the country to reclaim land? — Because much of that land is land that requires reclamation to be carried out upon a very large scale ; take, for instance, the borders of large bogs, where is the use of reclaiming bits of that, when in a wet year the whole thing is flooded ; it wants arterial drainage, which can never be done by an indivi- dual farmer. Unless you have a great system of arterial drainage to begin with, the thorough drainage of farms is of little use. 645. How do you propose to carry out the arterial drainage to begin with ? — It is a national measure, and it might be done at the expense of the empire or of Ireland itself. 646. Would you suggest that in a matter like that there should be some form of national rate? — I would be prepared to go a certain way in that direction, but I would say that a great deal 0.98. Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued. of the expense should come from Imperial sources. 647. With regard to planting, is it not the fact that in the western part of Ireland it is too wet below and too wet above for planting to make it answer ? — That is part of the question of arterial drainage ; it is not so wet that the trees will not grow. One of the worst districts in Ireland as regards wetness is the west of Mayo, and Mayo was one of the best wooded counties within 150 years. 648. Is not the laxity of the law of trespass a great disadvantage in Ireland ; everybody tres- passes upon everybody else's land ? — I do not know that; I see a good deal of planting thriving now without effective injury; but, as I said upon the last day of my examination, if you are to have extensive and effective planting you must also have protection. That would be part of the measures you would adopt. If you plant 20,000 acres, you must have here, as on the Continent, protection. It requires protection in Germany and in France as well as here. 649. Do you mean profection in fencing? — No ; in law, and doing what the German Feld Politzei do. 650. Do you think that fishing has increased or decreased in the last few years in Ireland ? — It is very difficult to determine that question as a whole, because the statistics published by the Board of Trade and the statistics of the Irish Fishery Inspectors are not accordant. The latter do not give the tonnage. They complain that they have no means whatever of getting accurate returns, and 1 may add that the result of ray own inquiry is that it is almost impossible to get accurate returns, except with regard to agriculture, of almost any industry in Ireland. 651. What is your impression ?— My impres- sion is that the fishery is, at this moment, in a healthier and better condition than it has been for years. In my own county, Cork, it has become a very important industry indeed ; the mackerel and herring fisheries have developed to an enor- mous extent. 652. What was the bounty system given in 1819? — There was a bounty given for fish taken, for fish cured, and for boats built, especially in the latter period, so it extended not only to the quantity of fish taken, but to the system of curing and the means of capture. 653. I understand you object to the system of bounty, on the ground that it is not an effective system? — I referred, not to the application of the money, that is fairly managed now, but to the difficulty of finding an efficient system of collect- ing the sums as they accrue due ; the Fishery Commissioners have no means of doing it. 654. You refer to the loans ? — Yes ; they made application, I think, to allow the Coastguard to receive the money ; but there were some diffi- culties, I think, raised on the part of the Admiralty to allowing the Coastguard to be used for that purpose. 655. Is it not the fact that fishery loans are very well repaid ; that the instalments in arrear are very small? — I said, in answer to a question a while ago, that Mr. Brady, in his last report, has shown that the interest upon the loans covers twice over the loss ; and I have no doubt there E 2 would 36 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Continued. Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued. would be no loss at all if there were some efficient means of collecting the instalments. 656. Would you recommend the extending of those loans and grants, under proper supervision ? — I would. 657. Would you put it at any figure ; to what extent do you think it would be necessary to go ? — I think Lady Burdett-Coutts, for the town of Baltimore, which is now made a great fishing town, has actually at this moment about 10,000/. out at free loan, and I would say that at least 10 times that amount might be employed for the purpose in addition to the funds now available. 658. Do you mean by the State ? — No, I mean a portion of our own money. The money which is now used for those loans is Irish money ; it does not, of course, come from the public funds. 659. I was not quite able to understand how you proposed to deal with the technical industries of wool, paper, and the other things you men- tioned ; you said it would be a very good thing if they were developed, but what was your actual proposal as to the mode of development? — My proposal would begin by the technical education system ; I believe that of itself would do every- thing, judging from the result of technical teach- ing in Queen's College, Cork. I see the result in se%'eral manufactures ; there is at this moment the first manufactory for chemical products ever established in Ireland, established by two students of the College, and I have seen others come from men having acquired a scientific knowledge of industry generally, where there are openings for the application of capital. 660. Where is that ? — In Cork ; the Shandon Chemical Works of Messrs. Harrington Brothers, which is the first real chemical factory of a general kind which has ever been established in Ii'eland. 661. And you would not propose to apply public funds from the National Exchequer in any way to develope those industries ? — No, but I have thought of the project in the city of Cork itself, of a sort of industrial bank to which 1 think aid might be given in the way of loans or assistance, but just as they have done on tiie Con- tinent in similar cases, by advancing money, not as loans, but as a help or assistance, in command- ing capital rather than creating it. 662. In giving it credit, in fact ? — Yes. 663. Such a bank as that would lend capital, ■and so on, to develope those industries? — Yes; my idea was to form a society of persons who are technically acquainted with a number of indus- tries who would act as a species of commissioners, and make reports upon them, and recommend to this industrial bank where money could be advanced, and where it would not pay commer- cial people to advance it. 664. Do you think at the present time, looking at the very low prices of all industrial products, and in consequence low profits, tliat without some system of State aid it would really be impossible to start any of those industries like paper and wool? — Certainly I do ; but I do not calculate upon any real Government assistance in the way of grants. 665. As I understand, the grants are to come through communications, fishing, planting, and chemical works, but with regard to the technical Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued. industries, as far as the State lends its credit to the institution of the bank, that is the only way in which the State was to assist ? — Yes. 666. Were not you recently speaking of the ill effects of what I may call the ordinary emigration, in which 75 per cent, of the people who go abroad are between 15 and 30 years of age ? — Yes, certainly ; we have never had any other emigration that I can remember ; it has been always the youth departing, leaving the burden of the less capable upon the people at home. 667. But if the State assisted in the direction of affording means to take away families, and where families were taken away the holdings were consolidated with other holdings, do you think the result of such a step would be good or evil ? — As far as particular districts arc con- cerned, I think the removal of the overplus of the people from that district would be a benefit, but I should like to know where the people went to. 668. If they went out of the country? — I do not think the population of Ireland is greater than its capacity to support it. 669. Do you think that any scheme of emigra- tion is practicable financially, as a paying thing? — No, unless some great national system of arterial drainage could be applied to the central plain ; that is to say, the plain in the centre of Ireland, within the irregular ring of mountains, which would include a large portion of Mayo and Galway, so as to bring the land, now unfit for cultivation, into cultivation ; I do not see any other way of getting rid of the congestion of population except by emigration. 670. You do not think the area is large enough ? — I do not think there is any place to migrate them to, unless you prepare a large area by those operations. 671. That being so, do not you think it of advantage that a certain number of families in a district should be taken away, and that they should be assisted by the State to go abroad ? — Yes, in families; always in families. Mr. Justin M' Car thy. 672. Mr. Cropper asked you one or two ques- tions about Lombardy, making a kind of com- parison between Lombardy and the State of Ireland ; is it not the fact that Lombardy has had from time immemorial a very admirable system of land tenure ? — 1 do not say it is an admirable system as far as I know it, but it is a better system than we have. 673. It is very popular amongst the Lombards, at any rate ? — Yes ; it is one of the oldest forms of tenure in Europe ; we had it ourselves, in Ire- land, at one time. 674. Is it not the fact that when the Austrians occupied Lombardy they left that system un- touched ? — Yes. 675. They did not interfere at all with the land tenure system?— No. 676. Was the Lombard peasant system as prosperous under the Austrians as it has been since ? — Yes. 677. As to the effect of legislation in ex- tinguishing trade, is it not the fact that there has been no Act of Parliament affecting trade directly in SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTEIES ^^IRELANd). 37 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Justin M' Carthy — continued, in Ireland within this century ? — I do not recollect any. 678. But 1 need hardly ask whether the effect of legislation directed against a particular trade ■would cease with the repeal or abolition of that Act of Parliament? — Unfortunately, anyone con- nected with Irish industries knows that up to the present day the legislation of the last century is operative. 679. Is it not possible that an Act of Par- liament directed against a particular trade might completely extinguish the trade for ever, so that it could never be revived ? — It is quite possible. 680. I daresay you remember hearing that there was an attempt made in the early part of George the Second's reign to discourage certain trades in the American Colonies, as they were then called, and that that was done, not even by legislation, but by a circular addressed to the governors of all the states; do you remember that ?— Yes, I do. 681. Is it not the fact that after the revolutions after the formation of the colonies into inde- pendent America, special attempts had then lo be made to restore those particular trades that were damaged by this circular issued to the go- vernors of the states under the English rule ? — I do not remember the exact trades, but I have a general remembrance of the fact that they did try to do so. 682. Something was said about the character of the people, and this brings to my mind a ques- tion that was put to you by Mr. Whitworth, the other day ; he asked you whether you were aware of any Irishman becoming an employer of labour in the Lancashire cotton trades ; I sup- pose the fact is that, roughly speaking, no Irish- man has done so ? — I am not aware of any such case. Mr. Whitworth ought to be a good au- thority on the subject. 683. I suppose you know something about Irishmen and their trades in America ? — Yes, I think I do. 684. Is it not the fact that there is not a single great branch of trade in America in which Irish- men have not risen to be employers, large em- ployers ? — That is so. 685. I will not ask you to explain the reason, because I cannot, myself, say what the reason is; but there is the fact that in this country we have no Irishmen employers of labour in trade, Avhereas in America we have Irishmen employers of labour in everj-- branch ? — Yes ; besides em- ployers we have inventors. I may instance among the list of inventors a man of your own name, the inventor of the cotton gin and half-a- dozen of the most important wood machines which have been invented ; they are people of Irish names which strike you at once. 686. Several of the largest employers in great branches of merchandise and trade, both whole- sale and retail are, out of England, employers of labour ? — Yes ; but I attach even more import- ance to the fact that they are inventors of ma- chines used in those trades, 687. I want now to ask you a question about your scientific libraries in Dublin, to which you told us admission was obtained by ticket, al- though that ticket was not difficult to get ; but 0.98. Mr. Juxtin McCarthy — continued, have you not found in all great cities that a ticket of admission of any sort to a library amounts, practically, to exclusion from that library? — I found that myself upon the Con- tinent ; I have found the necessity for a ticket for visiting some of the town libraries in Germany practically excluded me. 688. Is it not the fact that there is no great town of England, with the exception of London alone, which has not perfectly free libraries ? — Yes. 689. Now, coming to some of the occupations and trades, 1 did not quite understand from what you said what was the cause of the failure of the movement to restore the flax trade about 1851 and 1852 ? — It resulted in the growing of a con- siderable amount of flax, but afterwards, as the markets declined and prices came down, because there were few bidders at those markets, and pro- bably also because, for a short period, the price of meat and other produce paid more directly, — I say " more directly," and I will explain why — the farmers ceased to grow flax ; flax is essentially a money crop to the farmer ; he has to convert the straw, scutch it to prei)are it for market, and it takes about three or four months before it is ready for the purpose. If he, on the other hand, has a crop of oats, he can sell the whole produce within a fortnight after he has cut it, and if he has no money he will prefer the oats to the flax, though the flax might pay better ; that is one of the reasons. 690. Should you say that failure at that time was any strong argument against success another time? — Certainly not. 691. You told the Committee about the cottage industry which used to be very successful ; there was the Eandon weaving trade ; was that to a great extent a cottage industry ?— It was chiefly ii cottage industry. 692. You told the Committee that some trades failed in towns because the guilds were in the hands of one religion who would not admit work- men of another; did that affect the Bandon weaving trade ? — It did very largely, and it affected the Blarney trade. 693. The Bandon weaving trade is now ex- tinct ? — Completely. 694. There was also in Cork a very large weaving trade ? — There was ; the hand-loom weaving ; that was the cottage industry in Black- pool. 694*. Is that extinct? — I believe it is. 695. Was not there also a large rope-making trade in Cork?— There was in the industrial district of Blarney a very large rope factory. 696. And also block-making and pulley- making ? — Yes. 697. That was a very large industry, was it not ? — Yes. 698. Is that not so now? — It was at the time when there was some wooden ship-building in the harbour, which encouraged the local block and cordage making. 699. Was the making of oars for boats a very successful industry ? — Yes. 700. Was it not the fact that Cork-made oars were at one time largely in demand by the, London rowing clubs? — Yes. £ 3 701. They 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Conlinued, Mr. Justin McCarthy — continued. 701. They were considered to be equal to those made anywhere ? — Yes. 702. Has that demand ceased ? — I think there is only one man who does anything in oars now. 703. There was at one time a considerable glass-cutting trade in Cork, was there not? — Yes. I mentioned the fate of that on the last occasion of my examination, and it was well known that an attorney in Cork paid the wages pro\ided by the glass-makers of St. Helen's and Birmingham for two years to keep those men on strike. 704. You told the Committee about the to- bacco-growing, and the means you would take for its revival ; was that at any time an industry in Ireland ? — It was never what is called an industry proper, but patches of tobacco were grown in the county Wexford and some other counties, but no real industry in the way of tobacco lias ever existed to my knowledge. 705. You told the Committee that you do not yourself attribute the falling off of the industry and trade of Ireland to any general want of security ; that you do not believe ? — I never believed in that. I have never seen any results of it as affecting any industrial branches ; and I have paid attention to the matter. 706. Is it not the fact that a great many of those industries were extinguished, or caused to decay, in the period between 1810 and 1840? — Yes; that would include two successive periods ; but especially I would say between the periods of 1810 and 18S0, because that would include the reaction after the peace, the breaking of the banks, and ihe general change that took place in the whole industrial system, not only of Great Britain but of all the world. Mr. Sexton. 707. And the two wars ? — Yes, there were the two wars. Mr. Juslin McCarthy. 708. "Was that not also a period of singular quiet and stagnation in Ireland as regards all public moveinents? — Absolutely. 709. So that there was nothing going on in the way of a sense of insecurity then which Caused the failure of those industries ; the time was stagnant as regarded political movements? — A great part of the factories that went to the ■wall went to the wall before the Catholic Eman- cipation movement became very great ; they went to the wall in the period before 1827. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 710. Do you think that a sense of deficient security has anything to do with the prevention of the institution of industries ? — No. I think, with regard to peat, a society bearing the name of the "Amelioration Society" was established in a district where the peasantry were almost in open war at the time, but, as I conducted the experiments there at the time for the Govern- ment, I was not aware of any effect whatever upon the operations of the peat company ; that failed, as I say, through mismanagement and the great difficulty of introducing a new and peculiar industry ; but among the causes of the failure was not the state of tie country. Mr. Justin M'Carthy. 711. Just a question as to the matter of fact, without reference to the causes : is it not the fact that, between 1788 and 1800, there was a most surprising and remarkable revival of the Irish trade and manufacture ? — Yes ; that was, how- ever, before the great revolution in trade and manufactures took place. 712. Is it not the fact that in that period trades and industries were very much quickened and revived in Ireland, but that they were not enough to meet the demands, and the imports from this country increased also ? — Yes, it is within that period, or a little anterior to it, from about 1754 to 1796 or 1797, when the whole industrial system, such as it was, was created in Ireland, and a very remarkable increase it was, relatively to the condition of the country before that time. 7 13. And that increase of improvement kept on till about the opening of the present century? — It did almost till the beginning of the century, and then it dropped very rapidly. Mr. Molloy. 714. May I ask you one further question upon the subject of emigration. I wish to ask you if you are aware that the German Government have lately taken statistics upon the subject of emigration, with a view to stopping it, in their own country, by which they have ascertained that every child horn into the State up to the age of 15 years costs the State 100 I. \ that at the age of 15 the grown-up child then begins to make some return to the State for their expenditure , and thflt therefore every emigrant who leaves the State at about the age of 15, goes away at a dead loss to the country of 100 l, and gives the full advantage of that expenditure to the country to which he emigrates. Assuming that to be their calculation, have you entered into any calcula- tions upon the same subject ? — I have, and I have just come to the same conclusion, that every Irish emigrant has cost 100/. to the country. It is very curious that I came to exactly the same conclusion as they have already done in Germany, and I have put it into the report I am preparing for the Cork Exhibition. 715. Then, taking a million emigrants from Ireland at those ages, that would represent a total loss to the country of one hundred millions ? — Yes, there is no doubt about it. 716. And therefore, to arrive at the dead los^ of money to Ireland during the whole system of emigration, so far as the young people are con- cerned, the total number of emigrants, multiplied by one hundred, would give the number of pounds lost? — Yes, exclusive of what they might have carried away with them in the way of capital. I put it in another form : that the only return cargo we had was the dearest produce that we could make, for we not only got no return, but we expended 100/. a head upon it Our return cargo to America is to be seen at Queeustown every day in the week. 717. Of course, it has been an immense ad- vantage to America in getting the ready manu- factured material at our cost ?— Yes. 718. One SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTKIES (IRELAND). 39 1] May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Cuntinuad. Mr. Sexton. 718. One of the many interesting observations you made was, that the small farmers of the present were the descendants of the former gentry. From whom, then, are the present gentry descended ? — The majority of the gentry are the persons who have come into the country from outside. Wlien I said that I meant the gentry of the old races. 719. Perhaps that difference of origin throws some light upon our difficulties there ? — Yes, very largely. 720. Is the circumstance you mentioned, that the descendants of the gentry have turned to farming ocoupations, attributable to the want of industrial pursuits? — No ; as a matter of course, when the people who had occupied the position of gentry under the tribal system, in which there was not much industry except cattle raising, found themselves suddenly placed in the position of farmers, paying rent upon the laud which had originally been their own, that was not very con- ducive to an industrial system arising out of it, and that has left traditions which have come down to the present, traditions, acting upon the people and upon their ideas of everything. 721. Has that circumstance which you have mentioned led to the subdivision of laud, and is not the subdivision of land rather a cause of com- plaint in Ireland ?- — The subdivision is a more modern thing ; as a matter of fact, it took root in the early part of the century. A good deal of the early subiii vision occurred for the purpose of producing votes; it did not belong to the old system at all. 722. I was rather suggesting that the displace- ment of the native gentry, anil the reducing ihem to the ranks of labour, and the substitution for them of an imported class, may have prevented Ireland reaching that condition of cohesion between class and class which is the great factor of success in any countrj^ ? — That it has operated in that way there is no doubt. If the labouring population, which practically disappeared in the period of the civil war, had remained, they would practically have been absorbed ; but it is a very different thing when you have to deal with gentry reduced to the condition of labourers. 723. It was suggested by a question ])nt to you by an honourable Member of the Committee, whether the habits of agitation in Ireland may have hindered the people in material progress ; I would ask you, as a student of history, whether, when a people consider themselves ill-treated, they either take what they think they ought to have, or, if they are not able to take it, keep on asking for it? — Looking at it from a historical point of view, I do not see why it is that political movements should interfere with industry. The period of political movement in every country is always coincident with its greatest advance in- dustrially, as in Italy, Flanders, and England itself. 724. You know also, that whenever the people of Ireland are quiet those who are their most powerful critics say that they are satisfied with their condition ? — I hold the opposite opinion. 725. Seeing that the object of this Committee is to benefit the people of Ireland by legislation, would you say that you could point to any con- siderable good gained for them in that direction in your time except through agitation ; that is to 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. say, through reiterated and persistent askinf ? — I am not aware of any. 726. You said, in reply to a question, that in the jn-esent circumstances, you did not think pro- tection practicable ? — That is my opinion. 727. Had you in your mind, when you returned that conditional answer, any state of things in which you consider that it might be practicable or desirable? — No ; I am essentially a free-trader, and I do not conceive my state of things in which it would be beneficial to a country, in the end, to adoj)t a system of protection ; I think, for in- stance, in the case of America, it has made the greatest blunder that has ever been committed by adopting a system of protection when there was no need for it ; and I say in the same way, that in all other countries the same result will happen. I did, at one time, devote a good deal of attention to a [lossibility of that kind, but I would still be a free-trader. 728. Nothing appears more clearly upon the surface of your evidence than that in most coun- tries there is a phase within which manufactures may very well have what I may call a period of nurture ? — They always have had. 729. When one country has been kept back by artificial causes, do you think the period of nurture might come in there more usefully later than in other countries ? — The whole theory of exchanges is a modern one, and dates from our own days, and though I admit in many cases the protection of industries has been very beneficial, yet in the present advanced condition of in- dustry, looking at it from all points, as regards the power to manufacture, and the nature and the sources of the raw materials, and the whole condition of industry, I do not think it would be desirable to adopt any system of protection. 730. But without using the term protection, you admit, I believe, that the state of nurture of certain industries in Ireland is desirable? — -I gave that instance in the case of railways and of inland navigation, which, I think, would require nurture and more than nurture. 731. While you lay only slight stress upon the mineral resources of the country, and while, I believe, you would hold that the main hope of the countr^^ is above the surface, as I may say, still you think that, with regard to the marbles of Ireland, the red marbles of your county, and the black marble of Kilkenny, a large national industry might be pushed if you could apply to the marble industry the artistic training and artistic skill which might be brought to bear upon it? — ^Certainly, I am of that opinion. I should also like not to leave the Committee under the impression that I believe all our minerals are incapable of being made any use of. When I speak of the small mineral resources, I mean that they are really, compared to those of almost any manufacturing country, very small indeed , but they ought to be sources of employment for a good many, nevertheless. 732. You think that gold and copper might be left out of the question, but that coal might be usefully employed? — Unfortunately, we have not much of the coal, but what we have of it, espe- cially in the north, has not been well developed. I think Professor Hull will be able to tell you E 4 about 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 Maij 1885.] Mr, Sullivan. {^Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. about the Tyrone coalfield, which is a disgrace to the north of Ireland. 733. You think there are certain industries, and you have specially mentioned flax, wool, and paper, which might be pursued in Ireland with advantage? — I would add any manufacture in which we are in the same position as they are in Great Britain, Germany, or any other country, where they have to import the raw material. The greatest market in the world for raw material, is England, Liverpool, and London, for example, and from those sources most of the continental peoples, Germans especially, derive all their materials, and therefore they are not belter off than we should be in Ireland; all the small indus- tries of Germany get their raw materials from England. 734. In fact, in regard to every industry, the material for which, wherever it may be produced, is abundant and cheap, imd in regard especially to industries which derive their value from the artistic skill expended upon the material, you think we have a field open for us? — Yes, cer- tainly. 735. But, however, the main resource is and always must be agriculture ? — It must. 736. And, in fact, perhaps I do not go too far when I say that the effect of a practical method of developing that industry in Ireland eventually will be to make the agricultural class thriving, and provide a market for their industry in that way ? — Yes ; they ought to be the support of the small towns, which in turn ought to be the cen- tres of small industries, and those again to feed the large towns. At present all our towns are in Lancashire, and not in Ireland. 737. Now, taking agriculture as the main resource, I believe it is generally admitted that both the climate and the soil of Ireland are exceedingly well adapted to the prosecution of the industry ? — I would not say too much in praise of the climate ; at the same time it is as well adapted as many other countries for agricul- ture; there are very few things of the ordinary north-west of Europe that will not grow tliere. Chairman, 738. You can ripen good pears there? — Yes. Mr. Sexton. 739. It is suggested constantly in a Committee like this, in the press and in various ways, that the practical condition of Ireland is due to the people themselves. I should like to ask you this : you have travelled a good deal, and you have observed many peoples, whether you con- sider that the natural aptitudes of the Irish people are good? — If I have any fault to find with their natural aptitudes, it is that they are rather too apt ; they are much in advance in many things in which it were better that they were not rela- tively so advanced. 740. You mean that they do not fail for want of intelligence ? — I put it the other way ; they have a great deal too much imagination, they wish to arrive at the result by the shortest possible cut. If they were a little more plodding we should have a different tale, perhaps, to tell. 741. Do you think they might be a little more plodding if they had a little more to plod Mr. Sexton — continued. at ? — I think they would ; I may say they would. 742. What is sometimes called a want of the habit of industry in Ireland is want of an open- ing for remunerative industry, and want of means to the formation of habits of industry which remunerative occupation affords ? — Certainly. 743. You were asked how it was (my friend Mr. M'Carthy referred to it) that Irishmen never reached the rank of employers of labour in Lancashire. Am I right in suggesting that the emigi-ation from Ireland to Lancashire, being the forced emigration of hunger and ignorance, placed them upon such a level of labour that promotion was almost impossible? — 1 should have said that at the beginning of the emigration to Lancashire they were not able to read, and they had, in fact, never seen a machine. I was a witness the other day of a number of intelligent people who were emigrating who had never seen a steamboat upon a river. 744. Then, tradition was against them in Eng- land, and England is a country where tradition works very strongly ? — And they live together, as you may see in Manchester, and I was very much struck with it at Hunslet, outside Leeds, where the whole population live as they \\\e in the west, and where no tradition could possibly penetrate to the mass of the people. 745. But, turning to the United States, Canada, and South Amei'ica (especially the lat- ter), and also to South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand, you are aware that in all those countries a large number of the Irish have reached the position of employers of labour ? — I need not go further than the United States for that : everybody knows that in the United States the position of the Irish is that, though there are still a great many at the bottom of the ladder, yet a good many have reached very high up on it ; the descendants especially of those who emi- grated. As to one place, viz., Australia, which you mentioned, I tiiink the Irish occupy an exceptional position in Melbourne. I should fancy that for a minority they are in a most remarkable position. I remember the late Sir John O'Shaughnessy, in reply to a question I put to him, how it was that the small minority of Irishmen in Melbourne were able to govern it, said, " I left Ireland when I was 17, and the only political lesson I had learned was how to divide the people against themselves, so I thought I would do the same there, and I did." 746. Are you aware that the emigration of people to Australia was an emigration of the better-educated and superior class ? — Yes, and the same to New Zealand. 747. So far as the Lancashire question is concerned, it would appear that Irishmen else- where than in Lancashire have had fairer play for their capacity, and that the result as regards their position in Lancashire tells more against their opportunities of advancement there than against their capacity to be improved ? — I cannot say exactly how that may be, except that I have stated the fact which should never be forgotten, that the Irish emigrant carries his religion with him, and sacrifices a good deal to that, therefore in the matter of schools I think that up to a very recent period, in consequence of that, he was in a very SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 41 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. r Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. very inferior position ; that is the matter which really is at the root of the question with regard to Lancashire. 748. That is to say he was a victim to conscience ? — Yes. 749. And has found a more favourable atmosphere in that respect in America? — Much more so. 750. Dealing philosophically, as you have dealt in your evidence with the causes of the present condition of Irish industry, you have first given us tlie historical cause. That historical cause has first manifested itself in the direct suppression of Irish industries ; the effect of that suppression, although the enactments are of old date, is in operation in your opinion at the present moment? — I think those enactments are operative yet upon the country ; the effects are still visible. 751. For instance, England in her manufactures has now got so far ahead in the race that Ire- land, without special facilities, could not possibly overtake her ? — Independently also of the ex- traordinary richness of the mineral resources of England, which are unequalled in any spot of the same size in the world. 752. That makes of course the advantage infinitely upon her side ? — Yes, especially since the substitution of steam power in manufactures for other power. 753. Then after the suppression, the historical cause took the aspect of neglect ? — Yes, neglect and the want of education. 754. There is also the tolerance by the Legis- lature of these guild laws, which up to within your own memory shut out the Catholic people from the urban industries ? — Yes. 7.')5. As I understand you, there were only the paper trade, and the wool tr.ide, and the pro- vision trade, th.at were open to the Catholics ? — Only the trades that were carried on outside the urban districts. I remember seeing the first attempt to break down that system in Cork in relation to the shipbuilding trade. I remember seeing an attempt made by Mr. Brown at Passage in tlie docks that still remain, when he went round and hired a number of apprentices from the people when the shipbuilders refused to admit apprentices, because it would have given them the freedom of the City. 756. In the breaking of the banks, and the shock of wars which followed after 1815 down to 1826, those Catholics who carried on business outside the towns were too weak to stand, and consequently fell through ? — Yes. 757. If the restrictive laws had not prevented them from being earlier established, and having a longer existence, they might have stood longer I — Yes, and you must remember tlie con- ditions of banking at the time. It is within the memory of not very old people that the majority of the small manufacturers of Ireland could get no accommodation Avhatever from any bank there. The reason of the establishment of the National Bank by O'Connell was to meet that kind of difficulty. 758. Keeping in mind always that agriculture must be the main industry of Ireland, do not you think with regard to the question I asked you here to-day, that the laws passed in this 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued, century to facilitate eviction upon the title in Ireland, had the effect of preventing exactly what you think essential, that is to say, an increase of the application of labour to the land ? — Cer- tainly. 759. Was not that a law very much in restraint of industry ? — Indirectly it is so. When I did not answer the question affirmatively, it was that I thought over whether there was any enactment directly affecting the manufacturing industry proper, but I quite admit that the condition in which the land in Ireland was, was operative upon everything in the country. 760. You recognise the effect, though its directness might not be apparent at first sight ? — It is direct. I was only referring to its bear- ing upon manufacturing industries, but after I had thought over it, I should have said that both directly and indirectly the action is immediate. 761. You told the Committee what you con- sidered a very important matter, and that is the effect of drainage upon the central plain ; under an Act passed 170 years ago, operations were carried on by the State for a long time, with the final effect that neither of the two objects now before us have been fulfilled, neither the drainage nor the reclamation ? — That is true, except that the Act of 1715 did not lead to much work of any kind. I believe as a matter of fact the river Maigue from A dare to the Shannon was the only work that the original Commission actually carried out of their very large programme. 762. The State has been amusing itself for 120 years upon the Shannon ? — It certainly ha» been spending money at various times rather curiously. 763. And the thing is not done yet ? — A good deal of it is done in this way, with regard to the Lower .Shannon ; under the Irish Pariiament they began at the right e.ul, though it must be said that they did not know much about drainage at that time. Smith, of Deanston, had not yet lived. They put a small canal to Limerick, which was quite in harmony with tlie then ideas of inland navigation, but it was more or less of a misfortune nevertheless ; that was period No. 1. Tiien came the second period, making a lock, which did not correspond with the locks upon the Lower Shannon, nor with the locks upon the Uoyal Canal, which would carry anything down to Dublin, so that if a boat were made lor the Drumleek Lock it would not suit for the other, and if it were made for the Royal Canal it would not fit the Drumleek Lock. Then came the Board of Works management of the Mid Shannon, and they very properly put big locks which would carry steamboats, but it must be remembered that they were made in the age of steamboats ; but really they should have begun at the neck of the Shannon at Killaloe, and made the locks wide enough (or a uniform system of navigation ; then you would have had no diffi- culty as to the drainage of the Shannon area. 764. The drainage was upon the principle of making the porch door of the house large enough and the others too small to let the people in ? — Yes. 765. Now having had 170 years of the drain- age of the Shannon, and 120 years' drainage of the central plain, you would say that neither of those works is completed? — No, I would say F that 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 AJay 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. that that affords material for a large historical chapter. 766. Do you know with regard to fishermen that they were forced to go to the Barbados ? — They were forced to go ; they were migrated to Connaught, and sold to Barbados. 767. Then they were hunted out of the land until the year 1819, when they almost disap- peared ? — No, there was a great revival of the fisheries between the year 1770, or a little earlier, and 1800. Thousih there were a great many blunders committed, yet I should like to mention this, as showing the beginning of the fish trade. There were bounties given for the importation of cured fish, and bounties given for the exportation of cured fish, encouraging the trade both ways as it were ; but the bounties for importing cured fish were continued till 1811, and were always paid, and bounties for curing the fish in Ireland were not regularly paid. 768. We have been invited to compare the treatment of the fisheries of Scotland with the treatment of the fisheries of Ireland; am I right in saying that the Scotch got advantage of the bounties for about three score years, while the Irish fisheries got it for about three years? — Yes, that is so ; practically from 1819 to 1824, when tliey began to be annually decreased, to the year 1830, and then they disappeared alto- gether. 769. Meanwhile for many j'ears afterwards the State gave the Scotch fisheries the advantage of a special brand, which gave them a decided advantage in the market ? — That was so, but I believe there is no diflSculty in getting a brand in Ireland if wanted. 770. I know that Mr. Blake cites it as a gigantic instance of the unfairness of the deal- ing with Irish fisheries ? — There was simply no use for the brand ; there were no fish cured. I should remind you that the only fishing and curing establishments were those erected in 1847 or 1848, or thereabouts, but an offer was made by a society which existed in England in connection with the famine of 1817, and after- wards. They had a fund called the Irish Repro- ductive Loan Fund, which has now been trans- ferred permanently to the Irish Hoard ; and they ofiered the Board of Works 5,000 1, for making loans to the fishermen, but the Board of Works refused to accept it. They took a peculiar view ; but I should say, from the ideas on political economy then current not only in England but everywhere, that they were right in the view they took of their functions ; but in 1847 or 1848 they accepted the 5,000 /. for the purpose of building curing houses, and there were seven, I think, erected and at work for three or four years ; they were then shut up just at the time when they began to be efficient schools for teaching the fishermen the mode of curing fish. 771. It is not at all an isolated experience that the State pulled up its institutions in Ire- land as soon as they began to work ? — Yes, and we give them a little help ourselves. 772. A little help goes a far way with them ? — It does. 773. The State continued the bounty to Scot- laud, did it not, as well as giving them a brand ? — They continued the Scotch Commission, and Mr. Sexton— continued. they allowed a certain sum annually to them for building piers, and other purposes, but they were not very generous to the Scotch fisheries either, I must say. 774. But comparatively to Ireland the State continued to foster them until they were in a secure position?— Yes, they did. 775. Even at the present moment in Ireland do you know that the Reproductive Loan Fund is allowed to lie idle and is not applied at all except to 10 counties, whereas we know that in other counties along the coast the fishermen are starving for want of help to buy boats and gear ? — There was, I think, a Trust connected with the Reproductive Loan Fund, and which went with it ; it is because of that Trust which was attached to the original scheme that it was con- fined to those counties ; but I believe there has been another sum made available and applicable to the other counties. 776. Do not you think either that the fund should be more fully used than it is in practice, or that the operation of the Trust ought to be ex- tended? — I should imagine that the operation of the Trust ought if possible to be extended, or that the fund ought to be increased. 777. You made an important observation about the mouth of the Shannon, that from there to Galway there was only one harbour? — I can think of no other. 778. Do you happen to be aware that the very last Report of the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries, which has reference to almost every coast county in Ireland, points out that the development of the fish supply is hindered, because of the want in every county of suitable harbour accommodation? — That want has been impressed upon me for many years ; I walked the west coast from Cork to Londonderry many yeai's ago, and tlie state of the harbours along that coast was forced upon my mind as strongly as it is now. 779. Turning from fisheries, the Government have allowed the railways to so impose and so manipulate their rates, as to be prohibitive on the industries in Ireland ; is not that so ? — I fancy that there was no power to prevent it. I do not think the Railway Commission has very much power ; at least it has not exerted it in preventing that ; I think it is simply that the plan of the railways in Ireland has been a sort of haphazard one ; the railways have been laid down piecemeal, upon no regular system, and in total disregard very often of the jihysical geography of the country ; therefore the small branches have been unproductive when they have been made. Dr. Lyons. 780. May I ask you was not there a definite system laid down, in what was known as the rail- way map of Ireland ? — Yes. 781. For the purpose of laying down railways upon a definite system ? — Yes, and that map has served as the basis of maps for at least a dozen Select Committees and Commissions, from that day to this ; I mean the frame of the map ; we used it at the Primary Education Commission, and that is the only use that has ever come of that Railways Commission to my knowledge. 782. We SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iRELANd). 43 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \Continaed. Mr. Sexloii. 782. We have been talkingof neglect and mil- administration. I should like to ask you whether the action of tlie Irish Parliament in carrying out the Keport of 1783, by aiding the erection of mills and factories, and a system of bounties, and in many other ways, had the effect that Lord Clare said it had, that Ireland advanced more rapidly than any other country between the time of Grattan's Parliament and the Act of Union ? — That is my impression. 783. Though the system of bounties may be an Act of doubtful utility in its operation, I take it that you would consider that the Irish Parlia- ment of the day did its best, as they understand it, for the advance of the country ? — Yes, that was the custom all over Europe. What has now been brought about through the agency of steam had not occurred then, so that Parliament did •what it was natural at the time. 784. The bounties were the best expedient of the age ? — Yes. 785. I suppose the Irish Parliament was up to the best level of the age?— Yes, it was in agricul- ture, and in some other respects. The Parliament carried the Bill for partnership en commandite ; it carried the Bill for planting, hampered, however, with some conditions which did not admit of its being made effectual. I merely mention these things to show the effect of its action upon things as they existed. 786. Contrasting the state of things as they existed before and since the Irish Parliament, would you take the statement of Froude as being correct, that England ruined the commerce of Ireland by her navigation laws, and ruined her industries by differential duties? — Earl Dufferin has put much the same thing in a very clear way that is worth recording, in his book on land tenure. 787. As he may be a Cabinet Minister soon, what did he say? — The passage is as follows: " From Queen Elizabeth's reign until within a few years of the Union, the various commercial confraternities of Great Britain never for a moment relaxed their relentless grip on the trades of Ireland. One by one each of our nascent industries were either strangled in its birth, or handed over gagged and bound to the jealous custody of the rival interest in England, until at last every fountain of wealth was herme- tically sealed, and even the traditions of com- mercial enterprise have perished through desue- tude. What has been the consequence of such a system, pursued with relentless pertinacity for over 25(1 years ? This : that debarred from every other trade and industry, the entire nation flung itself back on ' the land,' with as fatal an impulse as when a river, whose current is suddenly im- peded, rolls back and drowns the valley it once fertilized." 788. As you are an experimental as well as a practical scientist, it comes into your way, natu- rally, a good deal to speculate ; suppose the Irish Parliament had continued to administer the affairs of Ireland, do you thin'; you would have had to tell to-day the story you have had to tell about the wool trade, the exclusion of Catholics from industriep ; about the canal ; the River Shannon ; the fisheries; the paper industry; or the emigra- tion ?— Certainly not. 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. 789. Your own personal experience has been very instructive? — Rather too much so. 790. You were, at one time, a teacher of mat- ters bearing on agriculture, at Glasnevin?— Yes, I was. 791. Nearly a generation has passed away since you endeavoured to induce the Education Board to turn Glasnevin into a normal school ?- - And to establish a forestry and reclamation school. 792. But first to make Glasnevin a normal school for training teachers of agriculture? — Yes. 793. If your suggestion, 30 years ago, had been adopted by the Education Board, would you have been obliged to tell the Committee, as you have told them to day, that the want of that school is one of the four great causes of the decay of agriculture in Ireland ? — I do not think 1 would. I believe it would have made a very great difference in the history of Ireland in the 30 years, if that system had been carried out. 794. Instead of having 10,000 teachers, men and women, who have little or no practical know- ledge of agriculture, you would have a staff of teachers spread throughout every part of Ireland, who would be able not only to teach agriculture by their schools, but be able to illustrate it ? — Yes. 795. In point of fact you would not only have a greater application of labour to the soil, but what is of greater importance, a greater applica- tion of skilled labour ? — Yes. 796. Do you think that if men of your eminence and experience had made that suggestion 30 years ago to a department ruled by Iri.sh public opinion, instead of by a department which had only to please the Treasury at Whitehfdl, your suggestion would have been disregarded? — I do not know ; when I made that suggestion I was a young man, and I am afraid I would not carry any weight with my suggestions, so I could not say what might have been the result : possibly, if i had been of the same age then as I am now, and were credited with the same amount of know- ledge and experience, it might have had a diffe- rent effect. Chairman. 797. You have not altered your opinion, I believe ? — No. Mr. Woodall. 798. But you have had the satisfaction of see- ing carried out the suggestions you have made, have j'ou not ? — Not many of them. 799. But you told me that Glasnevin was now a normal school ? — That it was about to be made a normal school ; they are going to make it so. 800. Is it not the fact that the teachers are actually under instruction at Glasnevin now ? — But I have already alluded to the nature of the instruction which has been always carried out there. It has been this: that the teachers got an excursion in the country upon a Saturday afternoon, and they looked at the cattle and sometimes felt them, but without any instruction as to the value of that feeling, and then went back crammed with a great knowledcre of ao-ri- ^ ^ culture ; 44 MIKUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 Mat/ 1885.1 Mr. Sullivan. [Continued. Mr. Woodall — continued. culture ; but I wish it to be distinctly understood that that is not making a normal scliocl of it, but a normal school is a place where teachers will get a whole and thorough kuowledge upon the point. 801. Is it not the fiict that teachers now are brought from the rural districts of Ireland that they may be in residence for a certain time, and have actual instruction upon the model farm attached to the school ? — Yes ; you are quite right in saying that I iiave seen one of my suggestions carried out ; they are beginning to do it, but still it is not enoujrh. 802. Still in practice the suggestion I under- stand that you did make 30 years ago, has now to a considerable extent come into operation ? — It has come into operation to a small extent ; it is better than it has been before ; what has been achieved has been chiefly through the action of the present head of that department, Mr. Carroll. 803. Is this the present system of the National Board : " Teachers of national schools, with farms or gardens attached, or who may expect to be able to get land for a small farm or a jgarden, and who are effective in the discharge of their duties, are selected for a course of instruc- tion extending over six weeks, to enable them to become acquainted with the practice and science of agriculture, and to acquire a thorough under- standing of any special treatise sanctioned as a class-book in agriculture by the Commissioners." That during the attendance of such teachers at Glasnevin for a six weeks course of instruction in agriculture, they are to have a salary and result fees allowed for the period, provided that the school is kept open by an assistant or other ■competent person, or is closed by the manager for the course of the summer vacation. Is it also true that while the teachers are engaged at the institution they are provided v,'ith board, lodging, washing, and medical attendance gratis, and receive their actual travelling expenses? — That has only quite recently been brought into practice. 804. This is from the Appendix to the Report on National Education for the year 1883 ?— But it only dates in actual work after that. I have been urging that for a good while. 805. Still I had the satisfaction of seeing it in operation last year. As far as it has gone, would you like to see it extended still further? — I approve of it very highly. Mr. Sexton. 806. How many teachers are there in that place ? — I do not know that they have any class at this moment ; they have only limited accom- modation. 807. Would you say two score ? — That would be about the capacity ; they would, probably, be able to provide for about 60. 808. Before I pursue that subject let me ask you this : do not you think an Irishman, however eminent or experienced he may be, who makes to a public department in Ireland a sug- gestion, no matter how useful, involving increased expenditure and trouble, is very likely to be Ml'. Sexton — continued, treated lightly by the dejjartment which has to please the Treasury in London, the Treasury in London being mostly pleased by cutting down the estimates, and by preventing any projwsal for enlarging them? — 1 think in every country the great object of the holder of the purse-strings is to prevent money going out of the bag, and I think if we had an Irish Chancellor of the Ex- chequer he would keep a pretty tight hold of the funds. 809. I think you have shown as a matter of fact that there was a difference between 1785 and 1800 ? — The Government were pretty liberal at that time, and would be so now, no doubt. 810. I believe your suggestion 30 years ago was that teachers should be brought to Glasneven, kept there and subjected to a steady continual course of scientific agricultural teaching?— Yes. 811. Has that been done at all i — No. 812. "What is done is that teachers come to receive a literary training at the Normal Tn£titu- tion, and go out to Glasnevin by railway a couple of days a week ? — Novv tiiey are bringing a few of them to live there ; that is what Mr. Woodall alluded to. What you have just described was the old way of teaching them ; giving them an afternoon's walk out, but now they are bringing them to stay there a short time. 813. What is the duration of the time? — Some- thing over six weeks. 814. But beyond that there was nothing very definite : it was that after the teachers had con- cluded their literary course, and had qualified themselves to teach, they should receive six weeks or two months of agricultural teaching? — I would say it should be a year and not less. I would give those who are intended to teach agriculture in schools a real course of agriculture just as a student should be taught who would occupy the same position in Wiirtemberg, which is the part of Germany where the agricultural system of teaching is most advanced. 815. But with regard to the great mass of teachers who have to teach the ordinary national schools, do you think that a shorter course than a year would suflSce ? — If you divided the men into two classes, namely, those perfectly trained, and those who knew a little, that might to some extent meet and diminish the difficulty of training 6,000 or 7,000 teachers. 816. Would you think that you could apply your proposal to the present Glasnevin School ? — Yes, I would bring a certain number of each class in succession to the school from different parts of tiie country, so as to spread the benefits of the training over the country, and not con- fine it to one district ; five or six years would in this way make a great alteration. 817. Thirty years ago you suggested the establishment of schools of forestry and reclama- tion upon the western coast ? — Yes, I did. 818. That suggestion has not been adopted, has it ? — No, it has not been adopted. 819. Instead of that they put farms where the people knew how to till the land already, and put no farms where they were wanted most? — The system of agricultural schools was peculiar. When the schools were first proposed by the late Sir Alexander Macdonnell, he was almost alone in favour SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELANU). 45 11 3/awl885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. favour of it; nobody had aided him ; the general opinion of political economists was against any- thing of the kind, and he was obliged to rely upon any local public opinion that showed itself in the country. Wherever the local gentry in any place wished to have an agricultural school, he was only too glad to help them in it, but there was no absolute plan laid down to be carried out, and that was one of the reasons why those schools were put very often at gentlemen's gates, because it wa.=! a sort of experiment to induce them to help in it, but he, I am sorry to say, got very little help in the attempt he made at tiie time to en- large the national agricultural education. 820. Those schools had no local aid, and were not well managed? — They could not be well managed, because there was only one person to look after them in all Ireland, and however much one man might be disposed to spend his time in travelling and looking after them, he could not do it. I remember one, for example, at Raphoe, county Donegal. When I acted as a member of the Primaiy Education Commission, my col- league and ]. visited those schools, we found one of them, which had only drawn money for several {rears but had never done any work at all ; the and had a great crop of sow-thistle and several other plants; it was a capital botanic garden, but there was no agriculture there. There was nobody to look after the man ; it was merely a question of getting 5 I. from the Board of Edu- cationt; that was the only sort of agriculture he thought useful. 821. There was one place where the board tried to teach agriculture when they should have made bricks there ? — That is a remarkable case ; that arose from the want of local action. Two or three ])cople took an interest in it, but they were manufacturers and not farmers, at Belfast ; they were most anxious to get a model agricultural school there, but it was put down in the wrong place; it was put in a brickfield, and I remember when visiting it in 1868, that it was the finest example I ever saw for the study of the contrac- tion of block masses it would have afforded a fine diagram for a geological lecturer to show how blocks of soil crack. It was a great misfortune, because had it been put in a proper place it would have been a very useful thing. 822. In addition to these great errors of ad- ministration the system also failed; firstly, be- cause of the condition of the tenure of the land, and also because the farmers had a very imper- fect appreciation of the advantage of scientific culture ? — That is true. 823. The appreciation of scientific farming has improved, has it not ? — It has. 824. There is no further objection to continu- ing then on that score? — No, there is the ex- perience of the Cork Dairy Schools to the con- trary. 825. Your opinion is that the Cork Dairy School should be continued and other schools established on that model ? — Yes. 826. You and your late colleague. Professor Jukes, established evening classes for science in Dublin?— Yes. 827. With good results ?— Yes, I am sure of that. 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. 828. Results not confined to the days when you were teaching the classes ? — No, 1 think there were substantial improvements arising, for instance, from the lectures on dyeing. 829. You did that at your own motion without pay ? — Yes. 830. Nobody gave any pay for it ? — No. 831. And they never offered you any pay for it ? — We never asked it. I was young at the time and very enthusiastic, though I might not try it again ; my colleague was also enthusiastic. That institution, like so many others, was always in a state of high fever. 832. The Government allowed you to work for the public benefit for nothing, and when cir- cumstances called you elsewhere the Govern- ment allowed the institution to fall through ? — No. I should say the chief cause of its partial failure was the constant changes made, due, no doubt, to the want of public interest in it. The place was begun as a geological museum, under the name of the " Museum of Economical Geol- ogy of Ireland," and then it was changed to the " Museum of Irish Industry," and we organized a very excellent Technological Museum there, which I maintain was one of the best in Europe in its time and almost unique. 833. You gave a great deal of attention to that museum, did you not? — Yes, i gave a great deal of attention to it ; more than I would now. 834. As soon as you turned your back the Government broke it up ? — No, it was always in a state of dissolution, and then it was changed to the " College of Science," and we got a College de France instead of a College that would suit the wants of the country. 835. This museum has been allowed to go to ruin, has it not? — No, it has not been allowed to go to ruin ; but as the wants of the laboratories extended, pieces of the museum were cut off. 836. I think I understood from your evidence that the Government made no effort to popularise that institution. Now if you were at the head of the institution, with a sympathetic department to deal with, and with means at your disposal to teach evening classes, and make people aware of the facilities offered, do you think you would be able to make that a first-rate and exceedingly useful institution for the department? — I think I would, but at the same time I say that this is one of the reasons why, unless you have for institu- tions of that kind some local partnership, as it were, such as we have in Cork in the Dairy School, you cannot get a locality to take it up, especially in a place where they do not under- stand it. No matter how you might act in that respect, unless the locality interested itself it would not be successful. 837. Am I right in saying that one of the most unqualified successes in which you have been concerned would be the Cork Industrial Exhibi- tion ? — It was a successful thing, certainly. 838. You had to do it vourselves? — Yes, we had. 839. You had not the Government to thank for it ? — That is a real case of local exertion. 840. So that although you have been for a great part of your life in the service of the State, p3 the 46 JIIKUTES OF EVIDKNCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Continufd. Mr. Sexton — (continued, the one thing in which j'ou can feel that your suggestions were accepted and your efforts made fraitful, was one in which you can say the State had no concern? — We had the doing of it our- selves, and whatever suggestions we made we carried out. Mr. Rathbone. 841. Was not the success of that enterprise largely due to the fact that the locality that carried it out was energetic and devoted itself to it ? — That is what I have stated ; and unless the same local assistance and energy are devoted to the teaching of agriculture locally, it would not succeed. Mr. Sexton. 842. You noticed, I daresay, that those who are impeding other people are never at a loss for excellent excuses. Now, I wish to ask you a few questions upon tlie subject of emigration. Would you describe the emigration from Ireland that you have witnessed as an involuntary emigration? — I am afraid that the present emigration is voluntary, the result of previous emigration which was involuntary. 843. Except where people are brought away by funds sent by friends abroad, the emigration, you would say, is involuntary ? — Yes. 844. The emigration of late years is of the shop-iceejjing classes, who find their occupation gone because of the decay of the farmers around them? — Yes, I am afraid that there is more of that class leaving than there is even of the agri- cultural people. Tiiere seems to be a wholesale departure of the small tradesmen in the towns. That seems to me to be the result of my observ- ations at Queenstown during three or four weeks this year. 845. The decay of the rural population leads to the depopulation of the towns ? — Yes, joined to the changes which have taken place in the rates for the transit of goods. 846. Taking up the point of the necessity of the application of labour to land as the great necessity, does not it follow in Ireland that you cannot have the needful supply until emigration ceases? — I am strongly of tiiat opinion. 847. Y^ou told the Committee that locally the art education of the primary schools has led to no practical results ? — I was not asked that question ; probably you refer to the technical education commission ; in that sense it would be quite true; but would you allow me to add, because it is vital to the question, that we have had very little of this art teaching in the country of an effective character in the national schools. They tried there to do the very thing they did with agri- culture, namely, to get the teachers in their then uneducated condition as art teachers in the schools, and they failed in both. 848. You said, moreover, that education in Ii-eland, by giving undue pre-eminence to the literary programme and excluding agriculture, practically threw the emigrants into America, only equipped to act as clerks or assist in the rudest forms of labour ? — That is so. 849. So that, what with the agricultural sys- tem not giving any practical education and the Mr. Sexton — continued. tenure of the land driving the people out of the country, the emigrations are a double evil, an evil to the country the people left, and an evil to tlie country tlicy went to? — Some of those who left badly equipped, as undoubtedly they were, have managed to get out of the mud- 850. Two facilities are current about emigra- tion from Ireland ; one is, that emigration in- creased the rate of wages ; you demurred to that?— I did. 851. Y^ou think that all that emigration did was to lessen the quantity of labour ? — Yes ; at first, of course, it did raise the wages of neces- sity, because they were so -.ibnormally low ; but the result is now, as the outcome of the whole thing, that it has not raised them ; and I have given an instance within my own knowledge Avhere the rate of wages was 10 «. or 11 s. when I was a young man, and that at the Haulbowline Works, wliich would naturally present rather a high-class of public work ; it is now 12 .s. 852. The less people there were the less work there was done upon the land, and the wages were not materially affected? — No, the farmers had no money to pay for the labour. 853. The emigration from Ireland was the emigration of the young and vigorous, leaving the people at home unnaturally weighted with an excessive number of old and weakened people? — It was. 854. Emigration by families has been practi- cally unknown, has it not ? — Yes ; I have never known any emigi'ation of families systemati- cally carried out. 855. You are aware that the emigration of the last few years has not resulted, as people have wished, in the concentration of holdings ? — I think not, Mr. Sydney Bvxton. 856. Of what part are you speaking? — The emigration which I am speaking of is chiefly from Queenstown and Liverpool ; and with re- gard to the present emigration from Queenstown, it is chiefly from Connaught ; but that is only part of the emigration ; it comes from all inland counties and the coast counties to Queenstown. 857. Are you aware that in the parts of Mayo from wiiich there have been family emigration, considerable consolidation of holdings has fol- lowed? — I am not aware that it has taken place. Mr. Kenny. 858. Are yoii aware that there has been family emigration at all ? — I was only assuming that it had been, because the statement had been made. 859. Do you know that the local priests con- tradict the statements that there has been family emigration ?— Of my own knowledge I do not know it ; but I am quite sure that there has been very little concentration of holdings in Mayo. Mr. Sexton. 860. You are not aware of any such consolida- tion ? — I am not aware of any such consolida- tion ; there have been so many applications for emal. SEliECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTKIE3 (iEELANB). 47 U May 1885.] Mr. SULLIVAK. [ Continued. Mr. Sex^n— continued. small lioldings of land, that when a man goes the land is immediately taken up by another. 861. If the Land Act of 1881 had been passed in 1841, should we have had any such story of failure to tell, as we have had to-day i* — One of the earliest public matters I took an interest in was in the year 1851, in helping to institute peasant j)roprietorship; we took a great deal of trouble about it, and from the prices of land at the time, and the calculations of Mr. Scratchley with regard to the instalments to be paid, I be- lieve that if that project had been taken up at that time, we should never have had any need for a Land Act. 862. Or even if the Devon Commission had been taken up ? —Probably ; but the propitious moment was in 1850 and 1851. Our project ultimately ended in the hands of the late John Sadlier. 863. Do you think the increased security afforded to the farmers by the Land Act of 1881 will have the effect of checking emigration? — I should say certainly it ought to have it, and will have it ultimately, but it cannot have it all at once. 864. The greater the security of the farmers the greater the tendency to check emigration ? — Yes. 865. And judging of the effects of the Act of 1881, and judging from the records of the Land Court of abortive sales, do you judge that the tendency of time is towards the transfer of land from the owner to the occupier? — It is difficult to form any conclusion with regard to that at present ; all I can say is that the effect of the Land Act is beginning to be apparent everywhere, and it it would be more so if it were coupled with another provision which would enable the purchase of land to be more certainly effected. 866. I believe it has become practically impos- sible to sell estates in bulk, and that both Houses of the Legislature have come to the opinion that there is no way out of it except by the sale of the landlord's interest ? — I believe that is the opinion of most people. 867. That conclusion being reached, the farmer becoming the owner of the soil, do you think, his sale being then complete, and the likelihood of financial accommodation from the banks being placed upon the best level, you would have reached a state of things in which it is most likely that the maximum of labour would be applied to the ground ? — Not unless you join with it a greater measure of practical education ; there is no use in the one without the other. 868. That is the fourth cause of the decayed condition of Irish industry ? — Yes. 869. You would use the existing system of the primary schools to teach drawing, which you would consider useful, both as an agency of cul- ture and also as an educator of the eye and the hand, and also to teach elementary science? — Yes. 870. You would make the teaching of draw- ing obligatory in towns, would you not? — I would. 871. And you would encourage it in the country by results ? — I would. 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. 872. Where a certain number of national schools exist in a town, you would put a cer- tificated teacher of science in one of tliem. and let him form evening classes at the rest ? — Yes. 873. Then, with the aid of a local committee, you would form, I suppose, evening art and science classes ? — Yea. 874. And you would throw the cost of pi-o- viding premises and keeping them in order upon the locality? — I would. 875. You would expect the State to collect or to contribute to the collection of libraries, casts, models, and instruments, and to contribute to the salaries of the teachers ? — Yes. 876. As I understand your plan, you would link together the art class, the science class and the experimental workshop, so as to make the three of them act upon the same minds at the same time ? — Certainly. 877. You would govern that whole plan of yours by a special regard to the industries exist- ing in the place, or to the industries which might be established there ? —I would. 878. You think that the workshop, with the art master and the science master, and, say, a practical foreman in it, might give such artistic knowledge in a variety of trades as might put the pupils, at least, far on the road to a live- lihood? — I would. I think that system would be better than that which has been adopted of teaching the use of the hands now introduced into national schools, where it is left in the same condition as the agriculture, entirely to depend upon a teacher who is himself uninstructed. 879. You would procure a supply of s'lience teachers by developing a college of science in Dublin ? — And, of course, any other college which teaches science effectively in the country. 880. Then as you passed from the smaller to the larger towns, and from the larger towns to the chief provincial towns, you would establish, I apprehend, still more costly systems of art and science instruction by means of those workshops? '■' X GS« 881. Would you do that by the joint contribu- tion of the State and the locality ? — With at least enough of local contribution to insure local interest. 882. And at least enough of State inspection to insure a fair return for the money ? — I think that local money and State management are the two things that ought to go hand in hand. 883. Except a small subscription, you would put the greater part of the expenses upon the rates ? — I would. 884. You would not expect much lielp from the landowners in Ireland ? — I could not say that everywhere. I could not say that from the Cork district; the Munster Agricultural School is sup- ported mainly by the landlords. 885. Do you think that availing ourselves of the machinery of tlie existing primary schools, supplementing them by a system of art and science classes with workshops attached, ascending to a system of county schools partly supported out of the rates, and those crowned by a system of provincial academies and such collt-ges as the College of Science and Queen's College, would give us an efficient system of national technical F 4 instruction. 48 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 11 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. l_Conttnued. Mr. Sexton — continued. instruction, with local management and State inspection, without undue cost either to the locality or to the State ? — I think that with an organisation of that kind, it might fairly con- trast with thai; existing in any other country in Europe. 886. And you would expect in a few yeai-s to see springing out of that system a people with their eyes and hands trained to artistic work ; you would expect to see that industry in the Mr. Sexton — continued. home, and the result of that industry in the shops and buildings of Ireland? — I would. 887. As far as you may be concerned yourself, and I think you may be from the interest you have shown in the development of that system, would you look more hopefully to the. liberal use of intelligent assistance from a department directed by Englishmen in Dublin, or to an administration by Irishmen in Dublin? — I can have no hesitation in saying the latter. SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 49 Thursday, lith May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Armitstead. Captain Aylmer. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Jackson. Mr. Kenny. Mr. Leake. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Mr. Justin M'Carfhy. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Hathbone. Mr. Sexton. Mr. Whitworth. Sir Eardley Wilmot. Mr. WoodkU. Sir eardley WILMOT, in the Chair. Mr. William Kirby Sullivan, ph.d., d.sc, m.r.i.a., again called in; and Examined. Mr. Leake. 888. Am I right in supposing that you take rather a gloomy view of the present condition and the futui-e prospects of the industries of Ire- land ? — Perhaps I would hardly go so far as to say I take a gloomy view of the future prospects, but I certainly do of the present condition. 889. I think you said that they were decidedly retrograde in the south? — Yes. 890. And that there was some little improve- ment, you thought, in the north of Ireland ? — Yes ; allowing for the commercial crisis in the north of Ireland. 891. The improvement in the north of Ireland would be scarcely proportionate, however, to the general improvement of the industries of England and elsewhere, would it? — Yes ; perhaps in Bel- fast it would. 892. The supreme industry, I think you indi- cated, was agriculture ? — Yes. 893. In considering all the rest, we may con- sider them as subsidiary rather to the industry of agriculture ? — Undoubtedly. 894. You do not expect much from the coal industry ? — We have very little coal. 895. Nor iron ? — The iron may be made in one place, and might be made the basis of a small' industry, but it will never be a great industry ; it cannot be. 896. Nor do you anticipate much from the utilisation of peat ? — I think there is a future in that. 897. Then this Committee must expect the chief improvement in the industrial condition of Ireland to arise from a better development of its agricultural resources ? — That would be, necessa- rily, the main thing. k98. And yet you have the tillage decreasing ? — Yes. 899. Has the grazing branch of the agricultural industry increased ? — It has, because a great deal of the land which goes out of tillage is assumed to go into grass. 0.98. Mr. Leake — continued. 900. Is it the fact that you rear more cattle now ? — I do not think so. 901. Nor more sheep? — I think not. 902. Do you attribute that decrease in agri- cultural tillage, and the stationary position of its grazing, to a deficiency of capital employed upon the land? — Formerly there was an additional cause, namely, the want of security which was the main difficulty ; and now, of course, what has always existed, and is now perhaps the only hindrance, is the diflficulty of capital. 903. And yet there is Irish capital to a very large amount lying comparatively unproductive in your banks? — I explained, I think, upon the last day that that would require a little con- sideration as to how much capital there existed derived from the agricultural classes ; because, although they had deposits in the bank, you miast also take into account how much they have against it in the form of bills. 904. You would consider that that appearance was rather fallacious? — Rather fallacious. 905. You attribute the stationary or dying condition of agriculture to the want of labour also ? — And to the want of skill and knowledge. 906. And to the very large emigration of labour, so that there is a want of labour for the land ? — Yes. 907. The non-utilisation of the capital of Ire- land, I think, you attributed to the old habits of the people ; that they were afraid to embark in other industries ? — They were afraid to embark in other industries. 908. And with regard to emigration, though labour is wanted, it increases in so far as regards the effective labour in its leaving ? — The emigra- tion increases at all events ; it is very large ; it fluctuates a little from year to year ; but it is beginning this year very largely indeed. 909. There being greater temptations abroad than in Ireland, for the employment of labour? — I think the temptations are fallacious ; I think G it 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14 May 1885.] Mr, Sullivan. r Continued. Mr. Leake — continued. it is the letters which are written home which have led them astray, and also they get money sent over, 910. They are drawn over by those who have gone before ? — Yes. 911. Whose home ties are weakened? — The home ties are in point of fact divided between the two countries. 912. The money remittances which are re- ceived would indicate that labour meets more swift reward there than at home? — Yes, un- doubtedly. 913. With regard to this fear of capital to employ itself in industry, which exists every- where in Ireland, to what do you attribute that in the past? — I attribute it in the past to a large extent to the want of knowledge of how to apply it. 914. But you would also say to the want of security, would you not? — In the case of agri- culture, certainly, entirely to the want of security. 915. And that and the absence of capital, or the diminution of capital, makes labour more ill- requited ? — Yes. 916. And more parsimoniously employed ? — Yes. 917. When you speak of the insecurity for capital, with all its attendant consequences, in its employment on the land in Ireland, do you not think we are brought face to face with poli- tical causes? — It is undoubtedly a mixture of social and political causes. 918. We have had recent legislation upon this matter? — Vcs. 919. Do you expect that recent legislation has a tendency, or will have a tendency, either to remove the feeling of insecurity or to mitigate it ? — Unquestionably. 920. But the consequence uf that you think would be rather gradual in its operation ? — All changes in the habits and ideas of a people are slow, unfortunately. 921. The effect of insecurity has been slow? — It has. 922. It has gradually by successive disappoint- ments led to an absolute withholding of capital from the land ? — It has. 923. The reverse action would probably cause it to flow naturally ? — Yes. 924. You would consider this the natural effect would be more to the purpose than anything that the Legislature might now do to promote the influx of capital ? — That is the main point ; at the same time it may be stimulated ; but still it would depend to a large extent upon that. 925. Then this anticipated improvement in the condition of the cultivators and in the application of capital may lead us to expect a wider basis for the general improvement of industries in Ireland ? — Yes. 926. So many industries cling to, surround, and depend upon the main industry of agricul- ture ? — In Ireland it would be only those prac- tically which do so cling which will first succeed. 927. Agriculture being the main source of the wealth of Ireland in the past, as it must be in the future, I presume, would you not say that 80 much of the realised wealth from agriculture as is exchanged in the shape of surplus food for Mr. Leake — continued. British or foreign manufacture, is well spent? — No doubt it is, because without that we should be unable to get many things we want. 928. Exchanged in the shape of surplus food, I mean ?-- Quite so ; I understand it perfectly. 929. If this surplus agricultural wealth is ex- changed for British or foreign manufactures, so long as there is surplus labour in Ireland which might be employed to supply necessities, would you think it was to be regretted? — Unless on the condition undoubtedly that the exchange is in favour of the country. P30. I will put it this way then ; do you think you would employ your surplus labour in Ireland in producing those things which otherwise have to be imported from abroad? — I would not go the whole length of that, because I think a nation which has only one form of industry, and that simply agriculture, always tending to have the country converted into grass land, and sending the products of that one form of industry out of the country, declines in civilisation. 931. My point is this; if you have surplus labour in Ireland, would you not desire that it should be employed in producing manufactures at home rather than that the surplus food should be exchanged for manufactures abroad? — Un- doubtedly ; I should have no difficully in answering that question in the afHrmative. 932. Now as regards the wealth which is pro- duced by agriculture, and which is represented in the form of rent, is there not much of that spent elsewhere than in Ireland ? — A very con- siderable proportion. 933. Is not a more considerable proportion spent elsewhere than is the case in the majority of agricultural countries?— I think there is no other country, that I am aware of, in Europe, where so large a proportion of what we may call rent is spent out of the country as m Ireland. 934. It is an evil peculiar to Ireland ? — It is peculiar to Ireland, and has been long an evil. 935. I presume you also suffer from the ab- sence of that wealth which is taken from you by emigration ?— AVe do ; we suffer not only by losing the labour itself, but also by the amount spent upon producing it. 936. This mischief does not apply to any por- tion of the wealth which is produced by your linen and woollen and other manufacturing in- dustries, does it ? — No. 937. You retain that which you make ? — Yes. 938. Can you suggest any special practical measures, not political, which would have a ten- dency to mitigate these evils which you are reviewing? — In a previous portion of my exami- nation I put it forward once or twice, I think, that I look upon the very first and most impor- tant of all as being technical education. 939. And that if we were to substitute for so much of the literary education which has been in fashion distinct industrial education, we should promote very largely the wealth producing power of Ireland? — That I believe. 940. I think you attributed the decay, the non-progress, at any rate, of Irish industry to continuous and very mischievous political enact- ments and influences in the past? — Yes. 941. Then may we assume that you attribute much influence to political reforms in the present and SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELAND). 51 14 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \^Continued. Mr. Leake — continued. and in the future ? — That is rather a wider question, because it is difficult to know what is reform and what is not. 942. Then I will say by political measures. If political action has so tar impeded Irish manu- factures in the ))ast, do you expect that by political measures of a more beneficial character Irish industries can be promoted in the future ? — I tliink they might he. 943. By political measures ?— It is difficult to answer an abstract question like that, unless you have the concrete measures to judge by. 944. For instance, you pointed out what I think we generally knew, that the extreme sub- division (-f land in Ireland had been freely fos- tered and promoted for political purposes in the past ? — U ndoubtedly. 945. These purposes no longer operating, may we not expect, and do we not see, that that injurious and extreme subdivision is ceasing or has ceased ? — It has not ceased, but it does not take place now as it formerly did, or to the same extent. 946. Again, the power which has existed to raise rent indefinitely, and to evict capriciously or at discretion, has it not impeded or em- barassed the cultivator's energy in the manage- ment of his land ? — That is what I alluded to a while ago as one of the chief causes why capital was not applied to the land. 947. Again, would not a greater sense of se- curity, a feeling of more independence on the part of the peojile of Ireland, tend to check emigration from Ireland ? — I should hope it would ; ultimately I should think it will. 948. Those are causes which would operate elsewhere, and I assume they would operate in Ireland? — They would operate very rapidly in Ireland ; but for what I have just stated, namely, that there is another Ireland which carries the people over to it ; their social ties draw them to it. 949. Then for the purpose for which we are met, namely, the promotion, if possible, of the industries of Ireland, would you greatly trust to the removal of unnatural impediments to all the natural forces which influence us in our daily life, such as interference with our self-interest, with our personal and our national pride, and with our home habits and associations? — I should say that it is the law in all countries that the removal of impediments assists the progress of that country. 950. Then following out that thought would you think it worthy of the best efforts of the Legislature to promote the ownership by the cultivator of his holding ? — Yes. 951. "Would you desire to increase the area and the extent of local self-government in Ireland ? — I would. 951*. By the people? — By the people them- selves. 952. You consider that by adopting every means of increasing the interest of Irishmen in their own afiairs in their own country by opening up to them every object of natural ambition, we should do much to increase the industrial force of Ireland ? — I do not think we can do much with- out it. 0.98- Mr. ieaAe— continued. 953. I take it that such desires move the breast of every Irishman in the country ? — I should say that that is one of the natural sources of energy in every country. 954. And those encouragements have been somewhat deficient in Ireland through the peculiar history of the past ? — They have. 935. You say there are several industries of which you can speak favourably as to the vitality of their progress in the north-east of Ireland, such as the linen industry ? — Yes, there are. 956. Is there any legislation required to pro- mote the linen industry .' — I should say not. 957. Every manufacturer has perfect security in the industry he pi-actices ?— Yes. 958. The linen manufacturer is so pro3])erou8 as to endure stout competition with the Scotch manufacturers, I presume ? — I should say that the linen manufacture has nothing to fear from Scotland ; it is able to hold its own ground. Of course, there is the question which I thought was suggested by one of the honourable Members of the Committee, as to protection, that, of course, I look upon as outside my answer. As I under- stood the question, it was simply, would any direct legislation, apart altogether from the question of protection, be needful for us. I do not think so, but you will get that information better from others connected with the linen manufacture. 959. I presume there is much foreign flax consumed in the north of Ireland in the linen maniifacture ? — Unfortunately, the greater part is foreign ; we produce only a very small portion of the flax which is consumed in the United Kingdom. 960. Yet your soil is of very fair quality ? — Still the quantity of flax grown in Ireland is a declining quantity; I investigated the question, and I have come to a different conclusion from that held by some ])eople, who consider that farmers will not grow it because it is an exhaust- ing crop. I hold that the reason it is declining in Ulster is because the land is going out of cultivation as a whole, and flax being one of the crops of the rotation, it goes out with the others. 961. Why is the land going out of cultivation? — Because tillage has been so unprofitable, the land is allowed to go into grass. 962. Has emigration anything to do with that ? — I dare say emigration has ; but in the north of Ireland the emigration is nothing in proportion to what it is in other parts of the country. 963. Has the production of flax been profit- able to the agriculturalist of the north of Ire- knd ? — I should say it was so ; if it had not been, they would not have grown it for so many years as they did. As 1 stated before, one of the reasons why flax did not extend itself to the rest of the country was, that being essentially what would be called a money crop to the farmer, he does not like to wait to get the proceeds of his culture for several months. He does not sell the straw, but he scutches it ; he prepares the flax and sells it, whereas if he has a crop of oats, he can sell it at once, and realise the value of it, and that, no doubt, has operated upon the small farmers who have very little capital, and who live from hand to mouth. g2 964. Does 52 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14 May 1S85.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Armitstead. 964. Does not he very often sell it in the straw ? — He does sometimes ; but I would not advise any farmer to sell it in the straw. Mr. Leake. 965. In the way of promoting profitable in- dustry in Ireland, would it not be casting away a manifest advantage to cast aside the culture of flax ? — I think so ; I am very strongly in favour of cultivating flax. 966. Can you suggest how this Committee or any other Committee could promote the culture of flax ? — It could be done, as it was before, by technical education. 967. It was suggested that people in former times cultivated flax without this industrial education? — Quite true; because they had a traditional knowledge which is now gone. There are only two kinds of industrial knowledge; there is the industrial knowledge which is handed down from father to son, and from one family to another, and that which you learn from teachers. 968. Has the production of flax in the north of Ireland been in any degree in your judgment discouraged by the general want of security in the possession of land, or any other political cause? — I think, in the north of Ireland, the production of flax has simply diminished, because the whole tendency is to run the land to grass, to give up tillage altogether. 969. You cannot add anything further to the information you have given to the Committee as to the causes of its decline ? — I think I have stated the chief cause ; I worked it out very fully for each of the counties in the north ; I have even a table in my pocket as part of a report, if the Committee would care to see what the thing is like ; but I shall be happy to supply the table for each of the counties, to show the rela- tion between the decline of tillage as a whole and the decline of the culture of flax. 970. I am informed that they do not scutch their flax so well in the north of Ireland as they do in Belgium ; if that be the case, your demand for, or your recommendation of industrial educa- tion comes in very forcibly ? — I believe that is the opinion of most of the linen manufacturers themselves, that there is a good deal to be done yet in teaching better scutching. Cfiairman. 971. Is it not true that there is an inferiority in the Irish mode of dressing it in consequence of its being done by machinery ; whereas in Belgium it is done by hand ? — Some think that machinery produces more long fibre and less tow; others hold that the Belgian flax is better ; but the Belgian system undoubtedly is to be recom- mended to the small farmers if they are to grow flax. Mill scutching will not pay a small farmer. Mr. Lealie. 972. Then there could not be a fairer opening for Irish industry than tlic cultivation of the flax which the mills consume? — I have always thought so. Chairman. 973. This {handing a sample to the Witness) h&3 been handed to me as a specimen of New Zealand Chairman — continued, hemp, which is supposed to be very well adapted for cordage and sailcloth ? — It is a plant totally different from our flax; it might be adapted for what Manilla fibre is adapted for, but it is a weak fibre and brittle ; that is a totally different class from flax ; it cannot split. Mr. Leake, 974. Leaving now the question of the linen industry and the growth of flax, you refer to the woollen manufacture as being very vigorous in its development ? — Yes, I think so. 975. Is it carried on by large firms or by small firms, or by hand workers?— Most of the new mills are fitted up with the best machinery, and there are a few of the factories upon an excep- tionally large scale. 976. Are they widely diflTused over the country or are they concentrated ? — They are widely diffused over the country, especially over the midland and southern provinces. 977. They are a very promising industry for our purpose ? — Yes, they are. 978. I think you told the Committee that they use much Colonial wool?— They do, exactly as any manufacturer in England does. 979. Did you not also tell the Committee that native wool is very good now ? — It is. 980. Equal to the Colonial wool ? — It is ex- actly like the English wool, differing in nothing from it. 981. With this increasing manufacture of woollen goods, and with an increasing demand for wool, you tell us that the production of sheep in Ireland has not incrc.ised ? — No. 982. To what are we to attribute this : that with a market at the door for increased supplies of wool, and with the flesh of the sheep increas- ingly valuable, there is no increased i)roduction ? — A diminished production generally. 983. The ordinary trader's temptations seem to be all there, and yet the natural result does not come ? — No. Colonel Nolan. 984. Is it the fact that the flesh of the sheep is increasingly valuable from year to year ; is not mutton dearer than it was ? — That is a matter upon which I would not be an authority ; but my impression is that it is not likely to be so now with the competition of the foreign meat, which will very soon affect it. Mr. Leake. 985. Whatever it may be, I have understood that we householders have been paying increased prices for mutton for many years ; however, we are face to face with a very serious condition. With an open market for supplies, and while we desire to promote industry, here is an industry which has every temptation to be promoted, which you may say is really decaying, for if the sheep are not increasing, the production of wool must decrease; can there be any special legisla- tion in this emergency ? — I am afraid that I shall have to come back to the same point again, the education of the people of the country, and capital. 986. Capital depending on security, and de- pending on more favourable conditions generally ? — Yes. 987. Has SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 53 14 May 1885,] Mr. Sullivan. \Continued. Mr. Kenny. 987. Has not tlie decrease of sheep been due in some measure to the climatic influence ? — It has been largely due to fluke. Mr. Armitstead. 988. Is the decrease of sheep confined to Ire- land ; does it not extend to Great Britain ? — Ves, due to the same cause. Mr. Lealie. 989. You have no recommendation to make to this Committee for the promotion of wool production other than to increase the general education of the people, to strengthen all se- curities for the employment of capital, and to encourage as much as possible the retention of young labour in Ireland? — There might be some mode of facilitating the application of capital; a bank is not intented practically to advance money to build factories; it is intended simply to provide money on bills for short times ; we want some organization outside the banks to advance money on machinery, fixed buildings, and so on, which a bank cannot lend upon with- out injury to itself. 990. You advocate the increased inti'oduction of capital ; does not capital, as a rule, flow naturally and freely in Avhere it can be freely rewarded ? — With us I think it is the reverse ; it flows out very freely ; I do not think it flows in. 991. Is that to be attributed to any timidity? — 1 think simjjly that capitcil in any country must be employed by the people who are in it. If the people who are in it do not know how to apply it, and have not the industrial knowledge to apply it properly, it cannot be applied; and if those who have the industrial knowledge have not the capital, the difficulty will be the same. 992. Where there is no capital, but where there is industrial knowledge, as in England, the capital finds its way to the industrial knowledge. Ai-e there any special reasons wiiy it should not do the same in Ireland by natural laws ? — If we were as industrially advanced as England, I am am sure it would ; but Ireland is not the only country open to reproach in this respect. In every country in pi-etty much the same condition as Ireland where, though money exists it cannot be easily got at, persons possessing skill and knowledge do not find it easy to start a manu- facture. You have only to look over the south of Europe to see how very slowly manufactures have begun to grow there, though they have many more advantages than we have in Ireland. It is the atmosphere that surrounds an industrial town. Capital there looks out for application ; but we have no towns where there are industries of any kind seeking for capital ; we have only a few small manufacturers who would wish to borrow money from the b.ank, which the bank cannot lend them, howevei", for more than a raontli, or two or three months, and that is of no practical use. 993. You are referring now to industries out- side of the agricultural industry ? — Yes. 99-4. But even in the agricultural industry of Ireland there has been a shrinkage of capital ? — But the farmers still do borrow from the banks for their purposes ; perhaps they borrow a little too much, for they have gone in for borrowincr for 0.98. Ml". Leake — continued. artificial manures, which they do not know how- to use. 995. You referred to the Cork butter trade, and to its satisfactory development ? — I think the Cork butter trade is recovering. %'diS. And this was an instance of the advantage of education and instruction? — Distinctly. 997. And you would expect that other indus- tries being specially instructed would likewise take an onward step ? — They would ; I referred upon the last day to the case of two young men who had commenced the first general chemical factory we have had in Ireland, that is to say, a factory capable of making all the substances we employ in the higher branches of scientific research. That is an example of what can be done by teaching people science ; there they created the industry for themselves, because they knew there was a market for their products. 998. You were asked whether the prolonged continuous political agitations of Ireland had not been injurious, or had not interfered with industry, and I think you replied that political agitation had been of much benefit with other nations, and had not interfered with industry ? — My reading of history is, that in Italy, Southern Spain, Flan- ders, and North Germany, when industry attained its highest point, so did political agitation attain its highest point too. 999. Then you do not .attribute to the political agitation of Ireland the degradation or diminution of Irish industry ? — I have never been able to convince myself that this view was true. Chairman. 1000. Would it have the effect of sending people out of the country who, if they remained in it, would encourage the industry of Ireland? — There may be some people in the north, but I never heard of a manufacturer in the south who ever left the country from tliat cause. I doubt if ever any man left Ireland on that account. 1001. You mentioned rather a general expa- triation of persons with money ; would not that be a great discouragement to native industry? — Very few of the people who had .any money to give or to lend to industry have left the country, as far as I am aware. Mr. Lealie. 1002. I have only one more question to ask you. As the result of your consideration of this important question would you expect more prosperity, more industrial development, from setting free or invigorating the springs of energy in the individual in Ireland, than from State support of special industries by protection or subvention ? — I would ex2:)ect the former. 1003. By developing the manhood of the people ? — Both would be useful. 1004. Your decision would lean rather to the former than to the latter? — I think that if the foi-mer were developed, the other would come in at an early stage as a necessity. Chairman, lOOo. You have heard it started as an objection that the want of sustenance in Ireland rather deteriorates, as was observed by Mr. Leake, the manhood of the people ; that they suff'er among 6 3 the 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14 May ISSr).] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. the labouring classes from insufficiency of food ? —That is a general law. There is a curious instance of it occurring now amonsijst the fisheries, which have been promoted so much by the active benevolence of Lady Burdett Coutts, that the population engaged in that occupation formerly, ■when they had no fish, used only Indian meal, whereas now, when they do catch fish, they are to be seen eating beefsteaks like the English fishermen. 1006. I dare say you are aware that Professor Forbesfoundthat, taking Englishmen, Scotchmen, and Irishmen, the Irishman was taller, stronger, and able to raise a greater weight by a crane than either a Scotchman or an Englishman ; therefore that would rather answer the point of the want of nourishment, would it not? — 1 rather fancy that the samples Professor Forbes had before him were tolerably well-fed from all three countries. 1007. But they would all be equally well-fed ? — I assume, his experiment being made chiefly upon the students of the Edinburgh University, they were all pretty well-fed. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. 1008. You were asked by the honourable Member for Lancashire whether technical instruc- tion would develop the resources of the country better than protection, and I understood you to say that if the one came in first the other would follow. Slay 1 ask whether you meant that if technical education came in first protection would follow, or if ])rotection came in first technical education would follow ? — I do not know that I answered the question in that sense. 1009. You did not mean to advocate protec- tion or subvention, but technical education ? — Quite so. Captain Aylmer. 1010. You are most interested in the technical education ; you think that is the fii"st and most important thing at the present time ? — I think 80. 1011. "Why is Ireland, in your opinion, more behindhand thau any other of the civilised countries of the world in technical education ; have you any reason to give for that ? — I think the entire social transformation that was effected at the time of the famine is sufficient to account for it; that alone would, besides the previous history of the country under which every little industry has gradually and gradually died out. 1012. An honourable Member asks me to put a very pertinent question ; he says I ought first to have asked you, do you consider Ireland behind other countries in technical education ? — I should like to know what countries you refer to. 1013. Take England, for example? — Cer- tainly it is behind England ; it is behind Holland, it is behind Belgium ; Belgium is one of the most industrious countries in the world. 1014. And Germany ? — Germany has gone ahead more than any country in the world in point of its industries, in my own time. 1015. Since what time has this technical education in those countries which you have mentioned sprung into existence as a State question?— In Belgium it has a long historj; it Captain Aylmer — continued. goes back almost to the union with Holland. The first efforts there were not exactly in the direction of technical education ; but before the separation from Holland the Dutch Government did everything it could to foster manufacture ; and it is to the initiation of the Dutch Govern- ment that the great factory of beraing is due. 1016. In Germany they have commenced in the last 15 or 20 years putting technical educa- tion to the front? — When I was a German student they had Polytechnicums in existence even then. 1017. Those were all State institutions, were they not? — And the towns contributed very often. 1018. Then, in the matter of technical educa- ticn, Ireland is, practically, entirely wanting ? — Practically, entirely wanting. 1019. You believe that the technical education which is required to open up the minds of the j)eople to industry in Ireland should spring from the State ?— It must spring from the State. 1020. Your view would amount to this, a re- vision of the Education Code of Ireland ? — It would. 1021. Have you studied at all the system of the Irish railways ? — I formerly took an active part in the attempt to amalg-imate them ; that was many years ago. 1022. Are not the Board of Trade rules regarding railways common to England and Ireland ? — I think so. 1023. Have you ever considered whether the- Board of Trade's stringent rules with regard to sidings, permanent way, and so on, which are suited to a rich, populous country like England, might be entirely unsuited to Ireland ? — With regard to all the questions in Ireland, there is hardly any other which requires investigation more ; it is one of the most pressing questions, for it is keeping us back a good deal ; it is full of anomalies, and altogether it is in a bad way. 1024. Are you aware of any cases in which railway companies would gladly have put down sidings to oj)en up certain industries, brick, or otherwise, but they have been afraid to do them on account of the restrictions put upon them by the Board of Trade ? — I have heard so. I am not aware of any definite example, but I know it is talked of as one of the things which are very objectionable. 1C25. You may not know it, but if you do I should be glad to have your opinion on the point; do not the present stringent rules of the Board of Trade interfere considerably with the exten- sion of sidings and short railways in the hands of large railway companies ? — As I said before, I do not know any cases myself, but I heard it from others. Mr. Wnodall. 1026. I just wanted to ask a question or two, arising out of an answer you gave on a former occasion ; you spoke of the establishment at Cork of the Shandon Chemical Works as being the first real chemical factory in Ireland. You did not explain what you meant by that ; but am I right in supposing that there are other chemical works in Cork ? — I am not sure whether on the former occasion I explained that I excluded the acid manufacture, bleaching powder, and manures. 1027. I only SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iUELAND). 55 14 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Mr. Woodall— continued. 1027. I only wanted that to be defined, because there are such at Cork, and also in Dublin there are im])ortant chemical manufactories ? — Yes, and in Belfast. What. I wanted to indicate was the whole ran^ie of scientific preparations ; every kind of chemical products such as the German manufacturers make ; not a big manufactory of acids, bleaching powder, and matters of that kind. 1028. Are they being produced at the Shan- don Works ?— Yes, 1029. But the others are specialities of manu- facture ? — Yes. 1030. You spoke with a certain amount of par- donable pride of the founders of those works having been students of yours ? — Yes. 1031. They were students of Queen's College, I presume ? — Yes. 1032. Will you be good enough to explain how far the Queen's College of Cork has been useful in training men for similar undertakings ? — I ■think that the engineering department of the college has been eminently successful in that direction, not merely in providing young men as civil engineers upun railways and such under- takings, but there are several of them otherwise engaged. One now mana«ing a large colliery in England, and another of them is the head of a chemical factory somewhere in London ; and others are elsewhere employed in similar ways. 1033. You have trained men who would have been very useful in enterprises of this kind in Ireland, but for whom no employment has been found there, and they iiave had to go further afield ? — They have had to go further afield. 1034. You have a museum of chemical appli- ances, have you not ? — We have a small physical laboratory. 1035. Not a collection of mechanical models? — No, we have no funds or place for it; we have a few examples, as for instance, instruments for testing the strength of cement and matters of that kind ; but we have no real collection illustrative of the application of mechanical science. 1036. You could do better if you had larger means ? — That goes without saying. 1037. Am 1 not right in saying that you have rather an important collection of preparations applicable to the training of medical students ? — I may be wrong, but I think we have the best in Ireland now. ] 038. You have already spoken of the success of the Munster Dairy School, under its present administration ; is there any undue sectarian or polemical difference which disturbs the success of the Munster Dairy School at the present time ? — None whatever. 1039. Is there a cordial co-operation of Pro- testants and Catholics in its carrying on? — At one of our meetings we had the Catholic Bishop and the Protestant Bishop, and a representative of the Presbyterians all together at one of our ex- hibitions. 1040. And the State aid in the case of that institution is materially supplemented by local subscriptions ? — It is. 1041. How far is that the case with regard to the Queen's College of Cork ? — I spent alto- gether as much since I went there as was spent 0.98. Mr. Woodall — continued. in building it originally, and half of that has come from the locality. 1042. In reference to one of the questions which have been addressed to you, where you have spoken of the duty of the State, would you regard it as essential to success that there should be pecuniary co-operation and practical sympathy locally, in the management ? — I hold tliat that is an essential element, and one of the most es- sential elements of success. 1043. And with such co-operation Queen'a College, Cork, might be even more useful than it is? — Certainly; I do not believe in those things without having the sympathy and assist- ance of the localities. That was the cause of the failure of the agricultural department of the Board of Education. 1044. Now, turning to another part of the subject. In the interesting historical resume you gave the Committee, you spoke of the latter half of the last century as having seen the creation of the whole industrial system of Ireland, such as it was? — Not absolutely. Besides the struggle for free trade of 1782, there was a previous sti-uggle that had also assisted in develo[)ing the industries; they began to be developed about 1770, and before that. 1045. Would you say that between 1754 and 1797 the industry, such as it was, was developed? — Yes. 1046. Then you spoke of the remarkable re- vival or further development between 1787 and 1800 ?— Yes, al^out that date. 1047. Then from 1800 there was a rapid drop ; industries were extinguished and factories closed between that time and the year 1830. You told the Committee you, yourself, remembered the existence of the guilds, *hich were very ex- clusive and deterrent? — I do. 1048. Which practically prevented any Catholic within the cities from taking any part in the trades of those cities ? — Yes. 1049. Will you tell the Committee when those guilds came into existence ? — They came into existence at various dates. 1050. But they were in existence, I imagine, during the period of this remarkable industrial prosperity ? — 1 hey were. 1051. But you would not connect those in any way with the fact of the industrial prosperity ? — They may have had something to do with it, undoubtedly ; the whole of the skilled artizans belonged to one religion, and they would have been affected by the general movement in the country. 1052. I suppose we may take it that throughout Europe, as well as in England, the existence of guilds has had a great deal to do with the promotion of skilled handicraft ? — Undoubtedly. 1053. Would you suggest that it would be possible to revive industry by associations of a similar character upon a broader basis ? — I always held the opinion about the French Revolution, that it gave a great blow to the country by the total destruction of the guilds, but I do not think it is possible to revive them ; they are reviving themselves in a very objectionable form, trades' unions. 1054. There is something to be said in favour q4 of 56 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Cuntinued. Mr. Woodall — continued. of trade unions, I suppose ? — I have nothing to say against them, except that they are a more objectionable form than the guilds would have been. 1055. It is a little remarkable that the prosperity seems to have gone on culminating up till 1800, and then we know there suddenly came on a decline ? — Yes. 1056. Was not that coincident with general decline of smaller industries elsewhere ? — It had hardly commenced when the decline commenced in Ireland ; if you compare the two countries' trade, you will not find the decline in Ireland absolutely coincide with the beginning of the revolution in industry itself. 1057. At what time would you date the in- troduction of steam lo manufacture ? — At about that period, the beginning of the century ; but it had not taken the real hold so as to be capable of destroying handwork so soon as that. 1058 But still James Watt lived in the last century, and the great inventions used in the factories of Lancashire and Yorkshire were at the end of the last century ? — Yes, they were ; but still they had not attained that position that they would have destroyed the other industry ; that alone would not account for it. 1 059. I would like you to tell the Committee whether, coincident with the adaptation of steam to sjDinningand weaving in England, there was to any extent an adaptation of the same agencies in Ireland to industrial jmrposes? — I mentioned the fact that not steam but water was used for spinning flax as early as 1809 in Cork. 1060. That is not quite an answer to the question ? — Steam had not been adopted at that time. 1061. Let us for a moment regard steam as the great revolutionising agent in regard to those industries, and that after its discovery it was quickly and extensively applied in England ; that in tlie ap])lication of it in England and Scot- land many of the small industries, hand-loom weaving, for instance, were superseded ; I want to know whether coincidently with its adoption in Great Britain there was any extensive adoption of it as an agency in Ireland ? — No. 1062. Then was not it inevitable that those old industries which had been prosperously pur- sued in Bandon and Blarney, and other places, would go to the wall in competition with this more jjowerful agency ? — No ; because they would under more favourable circumstances de- cidedly have adopted it. I would give you as a pi-oof that one of the earliest instances in which chlorine gas was applied direct for bleaching was its emjjloyment as early as 1805 in the neigh- bourhood of Cork : that is immediately after the discovery of it by Berthollet; and then you have the fact that in 1809 you had the first and only flax spinning mill upon the dry system ; it was not in Belfast that it was established, but in Cork ; and there were other cases of a similar kind. Chairman. 1063. Is it not the fact that the industries of Ireland manifestly declined before the intro- duction of steam took place ; what year do you Chairman — continued, take as the introducing year of steam in England? — As I understood Mr. Woodall's question, he wanted to know whether that decline to which you allude was not coincident with the influence of the introduction of steam generally, 1064. That was the point upon Avhich I asked you my question ; did not the decline of Irish industries take place some considerable time before the introduction of steam into England ? — That, I think, Mr. Woodall contends was not the case ; and I am rather disposed to agree generally with him, that there was a large ex- tension of steam in England during the very time that the Irish industry without steam was prosperous. It began to decline in Ireland after- wards, and, as I contend, not owing to the absence of the new ideas, because I gave an instance to show how rapidly they came in. I may say in regard to paper-making, that one of the earliest machines made by Fourdrinier was made for my family. 'J'hat shows that people were perfectly alive to the advantage of ma- chinery ; and if the circumstances which had favoured the industry before 1800 had continued, I have not the slightest doubt that as they brought in chlorine, and as they brought in esparto, which was brought in about that time, and tried by my father, so they would have brought in other machinery too, and would have introduced steam. 1065. The general industrial prosperity of Ireland continued U|> to what we may call the Act of Union? — I think up to two or three years before that, owing to the state of civil war; you could hardly take it to 1800, because, of course, although political movements do not in my opinion retard industry, yet civil war does. 1066. Tlie decadence began from the period of the war ? — Yes, there was a suspension during the period of the war. 1067. And then on the application of steam, the country was not in a position to avail itself of the new agency? — Quite so. Mr. Kenny. 1067*. I want to ask you a question about the planting of trees ; you know the west coast of Ireland, and you know that along the west coast there are scarcely any trees except in sheltered places, owing to the fierce blasts from the sea? — All over the coast, even on the east coast of Siberia, the trees are blasted by the west wind, 1068. I want to know what would be the best trees to plant in the more exposed portions of the country ? — You must plant nurses in the first instance, like the sycamore, and trees of that kind ; they resist the blast, and then you can grow other trees behind them successfully. 1069. But even sycamores do not successfully resist the blast upon the western coast? — Not as we manage trees ; we do not understand it. 1070. You think that in spite of the dis- advantage of the tremendous force of the north- west wind, trees might be successfully cultivated along the coast line? — I do : but I believe for some time we would have to learn a great deal about tree planting before we tried it upon a large scale. I need only point to Sackville- etreet, in Dublin, to show that our notions of tree 14 May 1885.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (irELaND). Mr- Sullivan. 57 [ Continued. Mr. Kenny — continued. tree planting in Ireland are not very highly developed. 1071. Do not you think intelligent individuals in the country might learn to plant successfully witliout going through the process of technical education? — Technical education means any teaching that would give you the requisite know- ledge, whether in 24 hours or two years. I would call it instruction in the particular art. 1072. Do you think that some descriptions of evergreens might be more successfully planted in those places ? — I do not know any evergreens that would stand that blast except, holly, per- haps. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. 107-3. I wish to ask you a question upon the subject of absenteeism ; there is a very general popular opinion that absenteeism is greater in the case of Ireland than in any other- part of the United Kingdom ; can you refer the Committee to statistics which show that there is more ab- senteeism ; that is, rent received in Ireland and spent out of Ireland, than of rent received in Scotland and spent out of Scotland, or than of rent received in Wales and spent out of Wales ? — I do not know of any statistics of that kind ; my opinion is formed from localities I know, and comparing those localities where the owners never appear at all. 1074. I could mention cases in Wales where a proprietor lived a long life and had never seen parts of Ids estate, according to his agent's account ; but it is important to know whether the popular idea is erroneous or true ; that some absenteeism exists 'v.\ Ireland is undoubted, but the question is whether it is right to attribute to absenteeism the condition of things in Ireland, unless it could be proved that absenteeism is greater in Ireland than it is in Scotland? — The subject divides itself into two questions, whether the absenteeism is as complete in Wales as it is Ireland, and whether the man who did not go to the estate did not do something for it. As re- gards getting those statistics, it is just one of the things one has to complain of with regard to most matters except agriculture, and sometimes even there it is difficult to get any sufficient statistics to base any conclusions upon. 1075. We have no statistics of home trade in any part of the United Kingdom except an^ri- culture ? — No. 1076. They arc very much wanted, are they not? — They are very much wanted. Chairman. 1077. There was an Act against absenteeism once passed, was there not? — There was. 1078. Did that do any good? — I do not think it did Mr. Justin M' Carthy. 1079. Ton told the Committee that emigration now is fostered by money sent from across the Atlantic? — I think to a large extent it is. 1080. That had some bearing upon the fact that labour gets better rewarded in America than here ? — Yes. 1081. Is it not the fact that the great propor- tion of the money sent back, comes not from 0.98. Mr. Justin Af' Car/%— continued, labour but from domestic service, from men and women who get into domestic service in New York and pther large cities ? — I think so ; it is a very striking feature in the emigration of this year, that it is the women who arc going who have the money, and not the men ; the3' carry the purse in buying things in the town of Queens- town ; it is remarkably shown there. 1082. So that what mainly fosters that kind of emigration is domestic service ? — Yes. Mr. Si'xton. 1083. I may take it that you move amongst classes holding widely different opinions in Ire- land ?— To a slight extent I do. 1081. I would ask you whether any influential bodies in Ireland are inclined to let such pole- mical differences as have been mentioned to you stand in the way of any general pean for the promotion of Irish industry ? — From my experi- ence of the Cork Exhibition I can speak dis- tinctly to the contrary being the fact. 1085. Do you think that for any purpose of promoting industrial enterprise those differences may be taken as non-existent ? — I can speak of one enterprise, which was promoted by the most extreme elements that we have. I know that we never had a quarrel of any kind, and we are still in existence, because we have a balance in hand which we are going to apply to art educa- tioii. 1086. Would you expect to find the same patriotic spirit elsewhere ? — Yes. 1087. Now with regard to what you have stated that the railway system requires alteration and that better local communication is urgent, do you think it important that the intentions of the Legislature with regard to the construction of tramways and railway lines, by the aid of baronial and county guarantees, should be carried out ? — I do ; I am sorry to see that one in which 1 have some interest, not j)ecuniarily, but an interest in seeing it done, having passed the grand jury and successfully passed the Privy Council, is subjected now to an expense of 400 I. or 500 L, upon its small outlay, to come over and pass a Bill through the House of Commons and House of Lords. . 10S8. Then coming back to your statement that the land is not half tilled, and that the fundamental need is the application of labour to the land, do you consider it essential in order that the labour may be applied, that the present generation of labourers should be kept there by the provision of homes suitable for human habita^ tion? — Unless that be done, we shall go back more rapidly then we are doing, 1089. Then upon those two matters, improved railway communication and carriage, and im- proved dwellings for labourers, do you consider it essential to the due administration of the powers given by Parliament that the public bodies administering those po*vers should be made by their constitution to correspond with the general opinion of the people upon the subject of the powers which they have to administer ? — I do. 1090. I believe you at one time, as head of Queen's College, Cork, and your colleagues there, endeavoured to extend the facilities at your hand for practical education ? — Yes. H 1091, To 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14/A May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. 1091. To increase the staff? — Yes; I wanted to revive tlie professorship of agriculture. 1092. I think at an early period you endea- voured to extend the stuff, and that the practical result of your application was the suppression of the chair of agriculture ? — That was hefore my time. 1093. But that happened at one time, did it not? — To use a common cxpressioDj the pro- fessors got a joint of their own tail. 1094.' A method of economical feeding, which the State sometimes pursues in Ireland ?— Yes; uni'ortunately the chair of agriculture was not looked upon by the persons interested in the study of Greek and Latin as a very important institution; nor was it at the time, but now it would be held of incalculable value in con- sequence of the improvements which have taken place in agricultural education. 1095. Your memory, taking you back tt> the numerous efforts you have made for the improve- ment of education, technical and otherwise, in Ireland, does not enable you to cite any instance in which your applications to the State depart- ments led to success?—! got a good share of money for the Queen's College, Cork, so I cannot complain. J got pound for pound up to the present ; for every pound of local aid I got a similar sum from the Treasury ; only when I got the offer of a very big sum it rather staggered them. 109G. I understand you made various applica- tions for grants to the Board of Education and failed? — The Board of Education was passing through various phases of government at the time ; that may account for it. Mr. Sydney Buxton. 1097. You laid great stress upon the im- portance of drainage ; what form of body would you propose to hand that question over to, if the Government gave a loan for the purpose ? — I think that drainage and inland navigation ought to be placed under a central board for the whole of the country. Chairman. 1098. I understand you to say that, as a general principle, the development of the industrial resources of Ireland and the improvement of its industries, would produce a great effect upon the comfort and the homes of the working classes? — I think it would. 1099. Would that be among the chief modes of contributing to the comfort of the people ? — I think it would. 1100. You have been asked about absenteeism; do you agree with those who say that, if an Irishman spends in this metro[)olis what he receives from his estates in Ireland, that would do as much good to Ireland as if he lived upon his estate and spent his money among his own people ? — I could not come to that conclusion. 1101. You rather doubted, I thought, whether absenteeism is an evil ? — I certainly look upon it as an evil, but at the simie time I do not want to restrain the movements of people. 1 102. We arc unanimous about the wonderful progress of industry in Ireland between 1783 and 1800; is not that a convincing proof, in your Chairman — continued. mind, that Irishmen are not naturally disqualified for industrial i)ursults ; that fiict alone would appear to be an answer to those who say that there is a natural inability on the part of Irish- men to undertake commercial enterprises ? — I could not agree to that assertion at all ; I should say that where they have the opportunity they Jiave done as well as other people. 1103. You say the defect in Ireland is owing to the want of labour ; is tliat owing to the want of skilled labour? — Especially to the want of skilled labour. 1104. Unskilled labour is not wanted ?— No. 1105. What you want for agriculture is a greater quantity of skilled labour ? — Ves, of skilled labour. 1106. With regard to emigration, you are of o])inion that in the long run emigration does not raise the rate of wages, even in the district from which the peojilc emigrate? — That is my view. 1107. Yoa consider that the gap that is made is almost immediately filled up? — Yes. 1108. Almost, as I have heard it stated, like tapping for dropsy ; it is a temporary remedy, but seldom attended with ultimate success?— Quite so 1109. Now, with regard to migration, I think you were a little more favourable to migration than to emigration ? — Certainly. 1110. That is the removal of families and indi- viduals from the congested parts of Ireland to those which are less congested ? — Yes. 11 11. But you do not put that forward as a remedy at all equal in your mind to increased production ? — No. 1112. You are aware that there are tinly two modes of meeting the want of sustenance in the nation ; one, increased production, and the other, removing the people who require the suste- nance ; therefore, taking migration as a remedy, you put that immeasurably below the other remedy you propose, of increased production of various kinds?— -'J'hat is my opinion. 1113. There is a question about paper, I should like to ask you ; there must be an enormous quantity of rags collected in Ireland ; where are those nigs exported to now ? — They go to Eng- land, and from England some of them go to America. 1114. On a previous occasion a question was put to you about the fisheries ; is not there rather an objection on the part of the Irish people to fish as an article of food ; have you heard that mentioned ? — That has come from the great change that has occurred in the food of the peoj>le, and the want of local markets. 1115. Nearly akin to that is the question about the dead-moat trade; is there not a diffi- culty in establishing a dead-meat trade, by reason of the fact that the large grazing farmers are often a good deal in debt to the salesmen, whos« business woidd be much damaged by the esta- blishment of local dead-meat markets? — I indi- ciited something like that in my answer, without stating it specifically. I stated that there were many interests opposed to it ; tiie steam packet companies for one, and the salemasters for another; that they would naturally object to any change in the mode of doing the business. 1116. They have a mortgage upon the stock,' and SELECT C03IMITTEE ON INDUSTKIES (IRELAND). 59 1-4 May 1885.] Mr. SuEiiivAN. \_Conti7tued. Cliairman — continued. and that would be rather an impediment to the snccesi^ful starting; of a dead-meat market ? — Yes, that is so ; and, moreover, the salemaster, as a rule, would not like to alter his trade ; no man established in any trade likes to have it revolutionised for him. 1117. Is it not rather an impediment to the establis!;ment of industries in Ireland, that the manufacturers and the dealers get credit for their manufactured goods from England? — That is one of the great difficulties which the small manufacturers will always have, that the large traders can aiford to give greater credit than small local manufacturers can. 1118. They do not require so much capital to start with ; they have not the factories to build or the men to employ ? — As a question of distri- bution, shopkeepers do not like dealing with the local manufacturer because he cannot give credit, and he has only one article to sell. 1119. Did I understand you to say that the live stock in Ireland has been lately greatly in- creased, in consequence of the land being turned into grazing ? — The land has been thrown into grass, but ihere has not been a corresponding increase in growth equivalent to the amount of land so thrown into grass. 1120. The value of live stock has increased? — Yes, it has. 1121. I daresay you are aware that that does not at all compensate lor the immense loss occa- sioned by the quantity of land which has now gone out of cultivation? — Grass will never pro- duce so much as land in tillage; it is a revival of the great discussion which took place at the beginning of the 18th century, which showed that the land under grass produced such a small amount compared to land under tillage, both for the people and the country. 1122. You think it a misfortune that land formerly under tillage should be turned into grazinn; land ? — I am in favour of a mixed agri- culture under which there would be a larger proportion of cattle raised than at present, and much more land tilled. 1123. I see by a paper I have before me, that there was nn enormous decrease in the acreage under crops between 1852 and 1882, and I find that the decrease in value of the produce of the land is calculated at 29,559,519 /. ; the decrease is chiefly in the oat crop, for which Ireland is peculiarly adapted, and what is more extra- ordinary, there is a great decrease in potatoes? — That is a fluctuating crop. 1J24. The decrease upon the potatoes was equal to 6,783,720 1., and upon the oats to 16,110,453/. Then putting the value of the increase in those 30 years from live stock at 9,000,000 /., and setting the decrease at 29,000,000/., on the whole, we find the loss to Ireland through the land gone out of cultiva- tion in the last 30 years to be upwaixis of 20,000,000/.; that is a 'lamentable state of things, is it not ? — That is exactly what the result of dropping tillage will be. 1125. As regards barley, your country is very well adapted for it ? — It is. 1 126. And has the cultivation of barley greatly decreased ? — Yes. 1127. But I am glad to find that in Guinness's 0.98. €hairman — continued. Brewery at Dublin, the sole material used is the Irish barley; is that so? — I am auare that Messrs. Guinness purchase large quantities of Irish barley, but I could not say that they use it exclusively. 1128. I find other records of (he patriotism of the Guinnesses, that all the cooperage is made on the premises; is that true? — It is true. 1129. I have a few more questions to put ta you upon other evidence from a paper wliich you have kindly furnished me with, and I will put them seriatim. The first question I will ask you is, could anything be done to encourage the utilisa- tion of the great flat bogs of Ireland ? — I am of opinion th;it the experiment that was proposed in 1715 is still open, and that a grand system of arterial drainage of the central plain should be now carried out. Mr. TSIolloy. 1130. Are you aware that there are reports in the Library of the whole system of the proposed drainage, with the surveys of all the bogs in Ireland? — Yes. 1131. Which have never been used ? —Which have never been used, except to quote from. Chairman. 1132. Now, suppose a great national scheme of drainage were carried out of the kind you suggest, what would you advise should be done to obtain the full benefits you would anticipate from the project? — I think there would be an opjiortunity afibrded for the migration of people, and also for the establishment of small industries along the margin of the bogs, where the fuel, not having to be c.irried any great distance, could be beneficially utilised. 1133. And tree planting? — And planting also. But I had in my mind the industries in which peat would be of importance. In 1851, when there was an attempt to revive Irish in- dustry by local operations, it was attempted to establish the making of bits, stirrups, and other similar things near the Bog of Allan; it was very successful for a time; but, unfortunately, no one took an interest in it, and the small smiths having no money were not able to go on ; but it showed what could be done in the way of small ironwork of that kind. There are many similar industries in the country which could be worked if the bogs were properly drained, and the fuel were properly worked. 1134. Upon the question of planting. What trees, in your opinion, would be the best for producing a speedy return to those who planted them ? — I think you will get that information better from somebody else who would be an authority on it. It is a question for a forester rather than for me. 1135. Do you know Mr. Howitz ? — Yes; no better authority could be got. 1136. He went through Ireland to inquire into that particular subject? — Yes; his evidence would be most important upon the mattei'. 1137. AVhat results would you anticipate from the scheme of arterial drainage ? — I think I have stated that fully already. 1138. Passing from that subject to iron smelt- ing, you were asked whether it would be possible H 2 to 60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE U Mny 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [ Continued. Chairman — contiaued. to develope an iron industry in Ireliind, and what you ■would do witii the produce, supposing the iron could he made as chea])ly in Ireland as in England. Have you anything to add to your answer on the last occasion ? — I was afraid that a conclusion might be drawn from my evidence detrimental to any project which might be started to make iron as they formerly did in Arigna. Now althougli I have no faith iu a great iron industry in Ireland, because we have not the materials, it is quite possible, and was done when they began to make iron on a small scale, that the products could be used upon the spot ; so that anything I said must not be taken as throwing a doubt upon the possibility of such an experi- ment being made there. 1139. Are you aware that Sir Robert Kane differs from you upon that point ; he is of opinion that there is an opening for a good iron trade ; at least he was in 1846 ; but of course his opinion may be altered now ? — That is exactly the point ; I should probably have agreed with him in 1846. I wish, however, to raise the point that, though I do not see much hope of an iron industry in the present state of the iron trade, and the price of pig iron, still I should be sorry to have it go out that I was unfavourable to the project of working the Arigna mines. 1140. As regai-ds inland navigation in Ireland, how do you account for its comparative failure ? — I think, as I said in answer to a previous ques- tion, the inland navigation is a curious chapter in our industrial history. The time of making our canals has been spread over nearly 170 years ; in adapting different parts there was no attempt to make them correspond. There is in the north of Ireland at this moment the extraor- dinary fact that upon tl;e sys>tem of canals the locks are all different ; for instance, a boat on the Laggan will carry 64 tons, but it cannot carry more than 48 tons upon the Ulster Canal, which was made subsequent to it, although the Ulster Canal is supposed to carry on the naviga- tion. Mr. Sexton. 1141. Would the course of trade take a boat from the canal with the larger locks to the canal with the smaller locks ? — Certainly, that was the intention. Moreover, the passage of five or six miles across Lough Neagh has never been deepened, dredged, or prepared for the transit of the boats. We have another instance of a navi- gation which has been pronounced a complete failure, the Lower Bann. The Lower Bann was intended both for drainage and navigation, but the navigation part of it has never been made at all ; the lower portion of it has no proper communica- tion with the sea ; it would require a cut to be made to carry off the overplus of water, as well as to communicate with the sea at Coleraine, but that has never been done. All the middle has been provided with weirs upon it, but the inter- mediate parts between the weirs have not been deepened ; in fact the whole thing is like a joke. 1 142. A grim joke ? — Yes, and then you are told that there is no chance of navigation arising upon it. It would have been impossible that any navigation could have arisen upon it. Then again the canal which connects Lough Erne with Mr. Sexton — continued. the Shannon is in a still more miserable state, because Mr. Vesey Porter, who I think will be called before you, says he sees birds sitting in the middle of it upon the mud; there is no water at all in it. Chairman. 1143. You are aware that there is a project to dispose of the Ulster Canal ? — Yes. 1144. I need hardly ask whether you are in favour of that ; but your views upon water com- munication, I understand, are that that canal can, for a sum of 10,000 I., be made available for much liirger vessels than can now pass through it. That seems a small sum to find for the im- provement and perfection of the canal communi- cation in that part of Ireland. I think there has been a public meeting at Nenagh to protest against it ? — £. 10,000 will not do much tor the Ulster Canal. 1 145. But that has been said to be the actual proposed contract for improving it ? — That will not do much. Mr. Sexton. 1146. £. 10,000 might make the canal more navigable, but it could not make it a much larger scheme of communication? — These are made for the public traffic, and should be kept open for the purpose. The reason why the Ulster Canal had not the locks made of the size of the Laggan and the Nevvry navigation, was that the company which had it had not the money to make the locks big enough. 1147. That you want to have altered? — Yes ; I think the inland navigation ought, like the arterial drainage, to be placed under one system, and worked as a great national work, and not handed over to small corporations. Chairman. 1148. As regards Ireland, you have the same opinion with regard to railways ? — Yes, 1 have the same opinion with regard to railways. 1149. Proceeding to the subject of railways and tramways, have you anything to add to what you said on Thursday last as to their present condition ? — Except to suggest that it is one of the objects of most importance upon which this Committee ought to get evidence from those who are practically conversant with the railway system ; they will find it wants a good deal of examination. 1150. I think you put that almost foremost in Irish improvements ? — I do. Next to technical education, and parallel with it, I would put the means of internal communication. 1151. You wish, I believe, to refer to the non- development of the Tipperary coal mines, owing to tlie want of a tramway ? — Yes ; that coal would be used all over the country ; there is at present only a very limited sale for the coal, the cost of carriage being sometimes two and three times the cost of the coal itself, because there is no means of carrying it about. 1152. That coal field might be very largely developed, might it not? — Yes, if the tramway communication were improved, and the facilities afforded by the railways were greater. 1 153. Turning to the question of agricultural education, have you any measures which you could suggest which could at once be carried out; SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND), 61 14 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. l^Continued. Cliairman — continued, out ; you mentioned the extension of the Dairy- School at Cork ? — Yes, by making it a complete agricultural station ; one of the most important things in Ireland would be the examination of agricultural seeds. 1154. You have defined the three purposes it should carry out, as being the education of young farmers, the education of girls, and the education of persons intended to pursue profes- sions connected with agriculture? — Yes; but independently of that, there would be the ques- tion of adding to it an agricultural station, having a place for the testing of seeds and matters of that kind. 1155. You mentioned the utility of the con- version oF the institution at Glasncvin into a normal school ? — Yes, into a real normal school. 1156. What is it at present? — It has only some students who are taken from the different schools throughout the country. They get what are called " free places." A student from the Cork school may get a free place througli com- petitive examination, but they use it a little more extensively than that, because during the vacation they bring up teachers for five or six weeks, who live in the institution and are taught agriculture during that time. But that is not what is wanted ; the real tiling that is wanted is to make it a proper normal school for teachers, Mr. Hexton. 1157. The present system does not give to any teachers the education you think ought to be given to every teacher ? — It does not ; the course is not long enough. Chairman. 1158. You recommend the establishment of a tree planting and reclamation school? — Yea; I would go back to the old idea I have proposed before, that there should be a piece of land taken and a temporary school built upon it ; and when the land whs reclaimed, that the buildinij mi;hbourhood, they being guarantors, and lending it out to the other parties .'—You want to carry it out tiirough local committees. Mr. Kenny. 1193. Do you know that out of the 20,000/. which Mr. Brady advanced in County Clare, only 30/. remained unpaid?— Yes; and that the interest covered the loss twice over. Captain Aylmer. 1194. To follow that up, I find you spoke of advancing money for boats and nets to fiishermen. Supposing a local committee, a body of gentle- men who wished to hel]) forward that object, tried to borrow from the Fishery Commissioners, could they do so?— No, they have not the power to lend it. 1195. They could only lend to the fishermen? —Yes. Mr. Kenny. 1196. The total amount of money at the dis- posal of the Fishery Commissioners is a very small one ? — It is too small for the building of boats, which is a very important thing, and it is also an important tiling to remember that, under the regime of the Commissioners of 1819, who had lent money for building boats rather exten- sively for the amount of money at their disposal, most of the hookers, the class of boat which they recommended were built at Baltimore, at Dingle, and at Bantry, where no boats are now built. 1107. A class of boats more essential than ever now in view of the improvement which has been made in local harbours under recent Acts ? — Yes ; I hear thev are now beginning to build boats at Skibbereen. Chairman. 1198. You were asked a question about to- bacco ; that was formerly grown in Ireland, was it not? — It was grown in Wexford, and one or two other parts. 1199. What caused the discontinuance of the 0.98. Chairman — continued. growth of tobacco? — It was suppressed for revenue purposes. 1200. Have you any suggestion now to offer upon the subject of tobacco? — I can only repeat the suggestion I made in answer to the question upon the last day, which was, that if the experi- ment is to be tried of recommencing the growth of tobacco in Ireland, the first thing to do will be to test the question upon a proper scale, by growing several acres, with the sanction of the Grovern- ment, at some institution, and showing what could be done by getting persons accustomed to the growing and preparation of tobacco ; but to launch it out as iin experiment upon the Irish farmers would be a great injury to them, unless it was first shown that good tobacco could be grown profitably. Mr. Kenny. 1201. I suppose the Treasury would have an objection to doing that? — No doubt they would. 1202. But tobacco is allowed to be grown in Ireland for garden purposes, is it not? — Yes, but only on a small scale. Chairman. 1203. Is there anything in the climate of the south of Ireland which is inimical to the growth of tobacco ? — I think not, seeing that in the Pas de Calais, near Dunkirk, and in Holland, they produce the best tobacco which is grown in the west of Europe ; but they are growing a fine tobacco about the Danube and upon the Plain of the Theiss. It is a question of leaf. The main thing upon which the quality of tobacco depends is flavour , it has not been ascertained upon what that flavour depends ; but there can be no doubt it depends on the sun ; the amount of nicotine in it is quite independent of the climate, and has been ascertained to depend more upon the manner of growing the plant : so that that takes away one of the principal arguments against the growth of it in Ireland. 1204. Is there any substitute used for tobacco by Irishmen? — Not now. 1205. I remember that the English youth used to smoke dried coltsfoot? -1 do not think that the youth of the present generation would be satisfied with a substitute of that kind. 1206. How far would you carry the training of the hand in any system of technical education applied to Ireland ; in other words, would you teach trades ; would you consider that an element in the industrial question ? — That is most im- portant of all ; the question is how far you would go. I do not know whether any of the honour- able Members of the Committee are aware of the system that was in operation in Belgium in 1847 and 1848, and up to the year 1854, in what was called ateliers d'apprendssage, as distin- guished from the ecoles (Tapprentissage, 1207. I think you stated that you would introduce that system in the national schools ? — Yes ; but they went a great deal further than any of our attempts at industrial education. In 1848, in East and West Flanders, the failure of the potato was even more disastrous than it was in Ireland. I believe something over 80 per cent, of the population in some of the communes in East Flanders, were at that time receiving relief, only with this difi'erence, that the relief H 4 was ■64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFOEE THE 14 May 1885.J Mr. Sullivan. [Contbi'ied, Chairman — continued. was given to people who had still their houses and their furniture ; the relief was not con- tingent upon their selling them. I was taken into one of the houses, and the first thing I saw was lace curtains in the window and a large box with elaborate wood carvings upon the sides of it, which would have fetched 20 Z. in any bric-a-brac house in London at the present time ; so I said to the gentleman, the inspector of the workshops, who was kind enough to show me some of them, do you give relief to people of this kind here, and he said, they are the only people we give anything to ; we punish the beggars, but we give relief to people who have anything, in the hope that they will be a short tune only upon the rates. Captain Aylmer. 1208. Which one of the schemes of technical ■education in Germany, Holland, Belirium, &c., would you recommend generally for Ireland ? — I think that pursued in some parts of Germany would suit us better, as being more accordant with our circumstances. 1209. Have you any one in your own mind who ■could come before the Conmiittee and give them information upon that point ? — I do not know anybody of my acquaintance who has worked it out, nor is there much necessity for it now that you have the Report of the Technical Education Commission ; but, perhaps, you would allow me to draw your attention again to a question which T diverted from a few minutes ago. At that time, in 1848, in that desperate state in which they were in Belgium, the linen manufacture was so backward that I, myself, saw a linen weaver, in an advanced part of Belgium, working with a liand-shuttle ; they did not know such a thing as ■the fly-shuttle, it was nearly all hand hand-loom -weaving. The Government took the matter up, and the localities joined with them ; the Govern- Tiient made a grant, and the localities made a grant; some merchant took a house, employed the people, and taught them how to weave, how to use the fly-shuttle ; and then there grew out of that a dyeing school and a weaving school, which as still, I believe, in existence at Brussels ; but as soon as the district got instructed in the better processes of weaving the workshops were broken ■up ; the operations were not continuous, they were •only for tiie moment. 'J'hat system is one which offers suggestions. I think the history of it was such an example of euccess, that it is worth while considering whether districts in Ireland could not be im])roved in a similar manner. Of course, the subject of teaching trades is avery delicate subject, only I might remark, that in reformatories and industrial schools they teach trades to the dis- honest, if I may so call them, or to the sons and daughters of the dishonest, but we do not teach the children of the honest tradesmen of the neigh- ^bourhood who go barefoot. Mr. Molly. 1210. Do you refer to Artane? — No, I do not •refer to Artane, but to other places. It is worthy of consideration wliether it ia desirable that the • children of the working classes who are not drunkards or criminals should get no such in- struction, and a comparison has begun to be made by the people. Mr. Kenny. 1211. There is a repugnance to employing young persons who have been in a reformatory, is there not ? — Yes. 1212. Do not you think a practical experi- ment might be made in schools not attached to reformatories, and that the workhouse would be a suitable place to make it in ? — Yes. Chairman. 1213. As far as your observation goes, do you think that the Irish youth of both sexes show an aptitude for learning handicrafts ? —I think they do. 1214. I was told yesterday by a gentleman that, taking a number of bricklayers' labourers, the Irish labourers began mounting the ladder and never went further, whereas the English or Scotch labourer would begin as a bricklayer and gradually get higher in the scale of employment; does that coincide with your view ? — No, it does not; I know the opposite to be the case. 121o. You think that if the Irish had the op- portunity they would become very skilful in various trades and handicrafts ? — Yes, undoubt- edly. You must not take, as a criterion, the ignorant man, scarcely able to read, who comes over to England at the beginning of harvest, or for labour like that ; he has probably passed the age at which he could adapt himself to any new caj)acity ; you must take the youth. 1216. There is one question, arising out of what transpired with regard to strikes, which I should like to ask you ; docs not the fact of the superintendent frequently not being an Irishman, that is to say, that an Englishman is put over Irish labourers, give rise sometimes to disagree- ments and jealousies amongst the men? — There may be examples of such a spirit which may be found in any country. 1217. II skilled labour were more general, and Irishmen could be employed in the higher capa- cities, would there not be less reason for those strikes; that the more you introduce Irit^h labour the more satisfied his countrymen would be to look to an Irishman as the head of the establish- ment ? — Yes, I think so ; but I think the effect of having skilled foremen from England or other places is exaggerated ; there arc cases where, I have no doubt, it occurs, but I have seen so many cases where the artizan is glad to learn from any one who can teach him. 1218. You would prefer to see skilled labour more general, and the Irishman at the top of the tree in his own country 'r — Yes. Captain Aylmer. 1219. The Irish tenants have no objection to learn from Scotch agriculturists brought over to teach them, have they ? — i\^o, they have not. Mr. Kenny. 12?0. And sometimes the sons of Irish farmers are sent over to Scotland? — Yes, they are. 1221. The Scotch farmers who have come to Ireland have been very successful ; they have nearly all failed who have come to Munster ? — And to I.einster ; I should like to add with re- gard to our agricultural school that a good many of the pupils of Glasnevin have gone out to the West Indies as managers of sugar estates. 1222. We assume from what you have told us that you consider the industries of Ireland to be in SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 65 14 Mmj 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. \_Coiitinued. Mr. Kenny — continued, in an unsatisfactory condition, but capable of development ? — Yes. 1223 Then I would ask you what industries in your opinion might be most readily encouraged and developed ; that is to say, those to which our attention should be directed first ? — I can think of no industry especially, except the great one of agriculture, and the fisheries ; all others must be the result of local circumstances, provi- ded vou facilitate the carriage on railways at cheaper rates, and give technical education. 1224. First of all there is arterial drainage; secondly, the planting of bogs and reclamation of land; thirdly, better railway and canal com- munication ; fourthly, teciinical education in all districts and trades to be taught in national schools; and lastly, greater encouragement of the fisheries, both in the rivers and in the sea? — And I think you should add to that some organi- zation which is necessary in the form of supply- ing capital ; that is to say, some kind of bank which would differ from an ordinary bank, for the purpose of supplying loans to manufacturers, enabling a manufacturer to get money for his plant, which he cannot borrow from the ordinary banks. Mr. Jackson. 1225. You would recommend that a national bank should be established to take up business which an ordinary bank would not take, because it was desirable ? — Not because it was unsound, but because ordinary banks are not adapted to do it. 122G. But will not banks lend upon any secu- rity which is worth lending uj)on ? — But the very essence of a bank is loans for a short period. If you lend money to start a factory j ou cannot get it back upon a three montlis' bill. 1227. You could not get it back at all if the factory did not succeed ? — I think it would be quite possible to get an organisation which would prevent that occurrence. Mr. Molloy. 1228. Is it not the fact thatsome of the private banks advance money now to the manufacturers, for the purpose of purchasing fresh plant, and for the general carrying on of their business ? — That was one of the elements of success in Belgium, when they re-created the industries of that country ; special banks adapted for the purpose advancing the money. 1229 I presume what you mean is, that the National Bank you speak of would be more for this purpose than for any other ; that whereas the small private banks lend when they have a surplus of money for investment, those banks would be, more or less, always in a position to do that which you recommend ? — Yes. Our banks have only a small subscribed capital, and do most of their business by lodgments, which are convertible at short periods. We have disasters constantly occurring from lending money upon what is in- convertible security. You could not convert a factory in the ordinary way into cash in a moment Mr. Jackson. 1230, I want to know what security you would give to a bank of this character, which would 0.98. Mr. Jackson — continued. satisfy it, but which would not satisfy an ordinary bank which had money to lend? — It would be a complex scheme, which I have not yet completed. I was doing it only for my own district. At a later period you will probably have an opportunity of seeing it, because it will appear in a form in which it can be realised. I think it is quite pos- sible to do it. Chairman. 1231. Generally how would you propose that the improvement of Irish industries should be brought about ; could it be done first of all by Irish capital? — My idea would be that it should be altogether by Irish capital. I think there would be quite capital enough if it were, as I expressed it the other day, made more fluid. 1232. Do you think the formation of industrial companies would be beneficial ? — I am not much of a believer in companies. 1233. Are you aware that at Belleek an in- dustrial company has been formed with small shares of 1 1, each, and that the shares have been largely taken up by the artizau class, and that the Belleek factory is flourishing to a great de- gree, and has been so since the formation of this industrial company,' the whole of the district taking, as it were, a personal interest in the success of the scheme ? — The whole thing de- pends, in industrial comj)anies, upon whether some of the parties engaged in them know what they are at. As regards the industrial companies that were started in Ireland, some of them not only included in their scope not only dividend, but amelioration ; they were going to ameliorate the condition of the country in some shape or other ; the result was, they always failed, be- cause most of the people knew nothing whatever about the, particular manufacture they wore en- gaged in. An industrial company which in- cluded people who knew tiie industry fhey were engaged in would be a benefit ; but if it were only a joint stock company, the people sub- scribing and not knowing anything about the business, I do not think it would do any good. 1234. How would you suggest the application of Irish capital to the purpose we have in view ? — I think you will have first to form an Irish fund under the guarantee of the Government, not for the purpose of losing it, but simply a large sum of money to be placed at the disposal of some organisation that would advance money in the same way as the Bank of Ireland, only it should be an Irish fund altogether. 1235. Could that be done, as was suggested on Monday last, by the establishment of an industrial department in Dublin ? — That might be of assistance. Mr. Eivart. 1236. Do you think that subscriptions could be got for it ? — I think they could. Mr. Molloy, 1237. Is it not the fact that in other countries advances in the same way as you have just suggested have been carried out, and have been based upon a Grovernment guarantee ? — Yes. I 1238. There 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 14 May 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. {^Continued. Mr. Molloy — continued. 1228. There is nothing whatever novel in that suggestion, but it has been successful in other countries ? — It has been perfectly successful. Mr. Jackson. 1239. Can you give the Committee any examples of other countries in which that has been so ? — I have given the example of the establishment of the National Bank in Belgium, by the King of Holland, before the separation. The reorganisation of the Belgian industry dates from that time. Mr. Molloy. 1240. In your experience wherever it has been tried in Holland and Belgium, this Govern- ment guarantee has not only proved most bene- ficial, but has not j)roved a loss to the State? — Generally, I think, but I could not positively assert that it has not been attended with loss. It is little mO! e than the extension of a thing which has been already tried in Ireland ; that is, lending out money to the fisheries, and there unquestionably the fund has not been diminished. Chairman, 1241. Do you think that if a fund were created with a guarantee by the Government of 3 per cent., we could expect Ireland to subscribe largely to it, for the purpose of industrial im- provement? — Yes, if it were open to very small sums ; if the subscriptions were very small so that all the ])eople could participate, then I think we could. 1242. Might such a sum be well entrusted to an industrial department, under proper manage- ment ? — The management would be the diffi- culty. 1243. With power of lending to comjjanies and individuals for the purpose of the various im- provements yoii have suggested? — I believe it would be successful if founded upon a proper basis, and properly managed. 1244. You think Ireland would not be back- ward in responding to the appeal ? — I think you would get !i large quantity of the money now in the loan banks, because instead of getting 1 per cent, they would be glad to get 3. Mr. JJ'kitworlk. 1245. You are speaking of loans upon Govern- ment security, are you not ? — Yes. 1246. Are you aware that in Germany, where such enormous strides have been made in these pursuits, they have been all conducted by joint stock companies ? — Yes, but I have no knowledge of any place where the parties who take an in- terest in manufactures have a better means of doing so. One of their exports is i-kill ; in the City of London itself the scores of German names show how they export their skill. When I was a student in Germany 1 came back to England in company with three or four Germans, one of whom was appointed chemist to Bass's large brewery. I am happy to say it is an Irishman who is there now, and of my own nan)c, who fills the place that the German had ; but in almost every factory wherever a chemical process was Mr. Whittcorth — continued. involved at that time, they exported from Germany the chemical information and know- ledge of mechanics, languages, and so on. The result has been, as every one will admit, there is a very large proportion of German skill in this country at the present moment, and there is plenty of it to spare in Germany ; and, accord- ingly, when they get up a joint stock company in sugar or chemicals, the amount of skill which is displayed, and brought into it, is very con- siderable ; indeed there is no lack of it. In many of the attempts I have seen made in Ireland to apply the jomt stock principle to manufactures, the traders knew nothing of the manufacture; they generally trusted to somebody who came over from England, like the sugar manufactory I described the other day, in which the only qualification the superintendent possessed for his post was, that he had been a lieutenant in Garibaldi's army. Mr. Molloy. 1247. In all the glass works in England and Scotland men are mostly supplied from ihe glass- works of Dresden, are they not? — Yes, In speaking of the Germans I alluded rather to the directing skill than to the artizan proper, because all over the country they have a number of polytechnic schools which give them a higher class of what I call technical education. Chairman, 1 248. We find that industrial exhibitions have been successfully carried out in Ireland, both in Cork and in Dublin? — They have. 1249. And in Dublin especially under the auspices and management of Mr. Dawson, then Lord Mayor of Dublin, and most successful it was ? — Yes. 1250. Do you think, following out that ex- cellent course, that those exhibitions in all parts of Ireland should receive encouragement ; that it would foster and promote industrial advance- ment if the example set by Dublin were followed in other places, say for example Limerick, Bel- fast, and Londonderry ? — I have no doubt some good would come of it, but I do not atracli very much importance myself to exhibitions, unless they are managed with the greatest care. 1251. But that has been the case in those ex- hibitions I mentioned, has it not? — Yes; what I mean is that the wide extension of them at short intervals does not do good, though they are very good for recording advance or measur- ing it periodically. I go back always to my idea of technical education, and I have a riglit to do it, because I was engaged in technical education at the time it was not looked up to favourably in this country, and therefore I am entitled to go back upon it and say that it is the real be- frinning. When your workman has had some instruction in the processes, something more than mere rule of thumb, then send him to the E; liibition, and he will get something from it; whereas if you send an ordinary tradesman to the Inventions Exhibition he will not see much. 1252. But the prizes given at those exhibition3 arc a great encouragement to the tradesmen and manufacturers. SKLECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 67 11 Maij 1885.] Mr. Sullivan. [Continued. Chairman — continued. manufacturers, are they not? — Yes; they arc coveted very much. I saw an instance of what I have just said the day before yesterday at the Exhibition at South Kensington ; the ilifference between an ordinary unskilled man trying to un- derstand a machine and a coujile of Germans wlio came there, each man with his note-book : one of the Germans had in a few minutes sketched the whole machine, and asked all the details al)Out it. Now, I daresay the Englisli workman could not make a sketch of anything. The result of it was, that though both of them examined the machine in their own fashion, it was evident that the German carried away all the informa- tion that it could give ; therefore, I say, if you Chairman — continued. have a j^roperly-eJucated workman, and send him to the Exhibition, he will bring away some- thing from it. 1253. Do you think the Government might be called upon to give prizes at the local exhi- bitions in Ireland ? — I have not thought upon the subject. I would limit their duty to the function of giving the education proper. 1254. Though it would not cost a great deal, would it not do considerable good ? — I think it might be tried; but I am not a great advocate of exhibitions proper ; I am for technical mu- seums. I make a great distinction between the two things. 0.98. 12 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Monday, I8th May 1885. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Armltstead. Sir Hervey Bruce. Mr. Sydney Buxton. Mr. Corry. Mr. Cropper. Mr. Ewart. Mr. Kenny. Colonel King-Harman. Mr. Leake. Mr. Sampson Lloyd. Dr. Lyons. Mr. Justice McCarthy. Mr. Molloy. Colonel Nolan. Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Sexton. Mr. William Henry Smith Mr. Whitworth. Sir Eardley Wilmot. Mr. Woodall. Sir eardley WILMOT, in the Chair. Professor Edward Hull, ll.d., f.r.s., called in ; and Examined. Chairman. 1255. You are a Fellow of the Royal Society? —Yes. 1256. And you are also a Director of the Geological Survey of Ireland ? — I am. 1257. And Dean of Faculty in the Royal College of Science in Dublin ? — Yes. 1258. In those capacities you have, of course, directed your attention generally to the minerals of Ireland ? — Yes, I have ; it is an important part of my official duties. 1259. We will commence., first of all, with coal ; you are cognisant, I take it, of all tlie coal formations in Ireland? — Yes; the coal fields have now all been examined and mapped by the officers of the Geological Survey, with the excep- tion of the coal field at Ballycastle, which is in fact under our hand. 1260. I understand those coal districts are seven in number? — They are seven in number, or rather that is exclusive of what is called the Western Group, which consists of a series of small, scattered, detaclied, coal fiel Is ; but there are three main groups into which 1 would divide them, the Northern Group, the Central Group, and the Western Group. 1261. Generally, I think, it is said by Sir Robert Kiine that the coal districts are seven in number? — They might be considered as seven one in Leinster, two in Munster, three in Ulster- and one in Connaught. 1262. The character of the coal in the north is bituminous, is it not? — Yes. 1263. And in the south anthracite ? — Yes, in the south and west. 1264. Let us begin first with the Leinster coal fields; in what part of the Province of Leinster are those coal fields found ? — The Leinster coal field is situated in part in the counties of Carlow, and Kilkenny, and King's County ; it is otherwise called the Castle Comer coal field, because Castle Comer is the principal town in the district. 1265. The Kilkenny coal field is bounded upon Chairman — continued. the east, west, and south by the River Barrow, is it not? — In a general way the carboniferous district, geologically s{)eaking, has the Harrow upon the east of it, but as a matter of fact there is no river boundary very near the coal district itself. 1266. What kind of land is that generally in Leinster where these coals abound ? —It is a table land, and therefore removed from any of the large rivers. 1267. Can you tell me how high it is above the level of the sea ? — It ranges from 600 to 1,200 feet above the level of the sea, with an average perhaps of 1,000 feet or very neai-ly so. 1268. How many workable beds do you con- sider there are in Leinster? — There were origi- nally about five or six Avorkable beds, but the upper ones, which were the thickest and mo.st important, have been nearly all worked out ; two or three of them absolutely so. One of them, called the four-foot coal (though that is very far from being its average thickness), is at present being worked upon a small scale. 1269. What does the roof of the coal bed generally consist of? — It is shale, or slate in most cases. 1270. Is it not sometimes sandstone? — Some- times it is sandstone, but in this particular instance of the seam I am speaking of, it is slate. 1271. The floor of the coal is clay, is it not? — Yes, it is. 1272. That is what is called the coal seat? — Yes, the coal seat. 1273. Is not the four-foot seam considered the most important coal seam? — It is; it is called also the old Jarrow coal. 1274. I see 8ir Richard Griffith places the area of that coal field at about 5,000 acres ; is that the result of your inquiries loo ? — I make it very considerably more than that; I make it 61,440 English acres. 1275. What SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAXD). 69 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.k.s. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. 127o. What conclusion have you arrived at with regard to the contents of those beds of coal? — In estimating the amount of coal available for future supply (I am speaking of the whole of the Leinster Basin), I have rejected the upper seams because they are either worked out or very near extinction, and I restrict my estimate to the two lowest workable seams, which are called by various names in different districts. Perhaps it is not worth while troubling the Committee with them. The upper and lower Towlerton seams are one name for them ; those seams vary from 1 foot 6 inches to 2 feet and upwards, with an average of perhaps two feet; but in estimating for future supply 1 did noi include the two seams, because it has been found that where one seam is of sufficient thickne&s to be worked, the other is of insufficient thickness ; therefore, only take one seam in one particular locality as the avail- able sujjjjly for future use, and that gives a final result of 118,000,000 tons in round numbers. 1276. That is in the whole oi the Leinster districts?— Yes, in the whole of the Leinster districts. 1277. Sixty-three millions was, I believe, placed by Sir llichard Grifiith to the account of the Kilkenny district ? — That is so ; I am speak- ing now of the whole of the district. 1278. At what depth from the surface in the Kilkenny district does the coal lie ? — Owing to the basin-shaped character of the coalfield, of course the seams crop out towards the margin of the coalfield and dip towards the centre. That will be seen by reference to the lowest section but one on the wall, where the dip is from tne granite bank of the mountains of ^^'^cklow and Wexford, aci-oss by Carlo w and the River Barrow, then crossing the carboniferous limestone, which is the blue formation, and then ascending to the table-land where you have first a series of shales orflagstones, about 1,200 feet in thickness, forming the rim of the basin, and then inside that, in the table-land, you have the coalfield. 1279. How near the surface do the scams come ? — At the margin all the seams come actually to the surface, but they dip towards the centre of the basin ; thei"efore they are deepest at the centre of the basin. 1280. The Tipperary coalfield adjoins the Kil- kenny coalfield, does it it not? — It does. 1281. That Tipperary field is placed by Sir Hobert Kane at 20 miles? — That is taking in a tract which includes the strata above the lime- stone. But restricting the area to the actual coal-^iroducing part, it is very much smaller than that. 1282. What is the breadth of it?— It is for the most part a series of narrow troughs, he seams being run into high angles towards the centre ; it is impossible to give the average breadth of it because it spreads out in various directions. 1283. In length it extends from Freshford to Cashel, does it not ? — Killenaule is the principal town or village on that coalfield, and it extends a distance of about five miles in a north- easterly direction, and is about two or three miles across. 1284. What is the thickness of the coal in the Tipperary district ? — The coal in the Tipperary 0.98. Chairman — continued. district is exactly tlie same as in the Leinster coalfield, but it is only the lower seams which are available for future use, and those to a small extent comparativ(dy. The upper seams are nearly exhausted ; the lower seams have an average thickness of two feet, or rather perhaps I should say of a maximum thickness of two feet. 1285. What works are now going on in the Kilkenny coalfield? — There are several collieries at work in the Leinster coalfield. I have a return of the out put from that coalfield from 1881 to 1883 inclusive, which perhaps I may give to the Committee, tlie returns of 1884 not having been made up at the time that I made application for these figures. In 1881 the out- put was 75,399 tons ; in 1882 the out-put was 82,714 tons ; and in 1883 the out-put was 83,711 tons. ]\Ir. Sexton. 1286. What were the collieries working ?— There are several colleries scattered over the fields. I cannot give you the names of them. 1287. How many would there be ? —There are about five or six, but they are all rather small collieries. Chcdrman. 1288. I suppose you could not tell the Com- mittee the number of persons employed at the present time in them ? — 1 could not. Mr. Dicken- son, Her Majesty's Inspector of Mines, has the inspection of all the mines of Ireland, and he of course has all the details of tliat kind. Mr. Woodall. 1289. Are these figures which you have given us the total out-put of the Leinster province ? — I understand that to be so. Chairman. 1290. How are those coalfields situated as regards communications either by railway or canal?— -Very badly indeed. Some means of transporting the coal either by rail or canal or tramway is urgently required. There were two or three schemes brought before the Lords of the Council in Dublin for the purpose of opening up this district very recently at their last sit- ting, and they « ere all rejected, and as I think, they very rightly rejected ; because it seemed to me from hearing the evidence that the estimstes and other details were very loosely got up. 1291. The whole of this coal that you are now describing is anthi*acite, is it not ? — It is. 1292. Now as regards the Munster coalfield, I see it is stated that that is the largest coal district in the whole of the United Kingdom ; is that so? — That statement has been made under a misapprehension ; it was formerly the practice to include in tlie area of coalfields the formations which overlie the limestone including the shales and the flagstones, which you will see by that diagram {hung on the wall) are underneath the coal. 1293. What collieries are now at work in the district ? — I do not believe there is a single col- liery at work at the present time ; there was not when I was there some years ago. 1294. Formerly they were the most extensive coalfields in Ireland, were they not ? — No ; I think there has been a misapprehension about I 3 that 70 MINUTES OF KVII)ENC£ TAKEN BEFORE THE \% May \HSo.'] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. that altogether, but it was saiil that they were the largest coalfields in Ireland, and indeed in the British Islands. 1295. There was one at work in County Cork at a place called Duhailow ? — That is not at work now. 1296. Is that owing to a deficiency of the coal or to a deficiency ol' the enterprise to work it ? — I think most of the coal has been worked out. 1297. The coal was particularly thick at that part, was it not? — It was ; the seams were two or three feet in thickness, I think. 1298. Then in that district you do not think that anything is capable of being done? — Not very much ; the seams were standing at a very high angle and it was expensive to work them. 1299. Is that coalfield also badly situated as regards communications ? — That is not far from the mil. 1300. And it is not so badly situated as the one you mentioned before ? — It is not so badly situated as Castle Comer. 1301. Now we will go to county Tyrone; there we have two special districts. Coal Island and Annahone ? — You may dismis Annahone alto- gether, because whatever coal was there has been exhausted ; it is never likely to be re- opened. 1302. They are both of them extensive districts; the area of Coal Island is placed at 17,000 acres ? — I consider the Coal Island coalfield is the most important in Ireland at the present time with a view to the future. 1303. Is that fairly at work now ? — It is being worked in several collieries, but principally in one not far from Dunj^annon ; the structure of that coalfield is represented upon the uppermost of the sections upon the wall. 1304. What number of collieries are at work in Coal Island? — I think there are only about two of any importance, and there are several others, very small ones. There was a most excellent attempt made to establish a large colliery in that very district to work the Drumglass coal in that county. The honourable Member for Tyrone county, Mr. Dickson, was connected with it, and I had great hopes that we were going to have a good colliery in Tyrone at last after so many years ; but I am sorry to say the quantity of water which came in from the old workings of that seam was too great for the engines to contend with, and they are completely at a stand. Mr. Sexton. 1305. Can you give the out-put at that coal- field ? — I can ; the out-put from the Tyrone coal- field in 1881, was 16,653 tons; in 1882 it was 12,520 tons; and in 1883 it was 11,709 tons; so that the quantity has actually been decreasing. Chairman. 1306. The Annahone district is much smaller, is it not? — The Annahone coalfield is really of DO importance whatever ; it lies between two faulls in a naiTow strip ; the coals are at a very high angle, and very much broken, and I think that all the coal that is likely to be worth getting out of it has been already got. 1307. It also lies a considerable depth from the surface, does it not? — Yes. Mr. Woodall. 1308. Would you give us the figures for ten years before 1884 ? — Ireland. Coal Mines. — Minerals Raised in each ottke follow inji Years. Year. II -3 Iron stone Rnisetl. Tens. Tons. Tons. Tons. 1874 - 42 1,051 1L«J,213 8,209 _ 147,422 1875 - 43 1,544 128,201 6,7 CO 3O0 135,261 1876 - 39 1,365 125,195 3,070 — 1 •-•8,265 1877 - 38 1,248 140,181 2,040 _ 142221 1878 - SI 1,222 122,0C1 3,808 125,859 1870 - 30 1,115 129,003 3,600 132,603 1880 - 30 1,071 133,702 3.765 1,051 138,518 18HI - 20 1,070 127,585 3,750 - 131,335 1882 - 24 1,002 127,777 3,015 - 131,392 1883 - 24 972 126,114 3,400 129,514 Kichard Meade, Clerk of Mineral Statistics, 20 May 1885. Home Office. I may say that the lise and fail of the price of coal in the market has nothing to do with the supply from the Tyrone coalfield, in my ojanion. Chairman. 1309. Is the Annahone coal good ?- bituminous coal in county Tyrone. -It is all Mr. W. H. Smith. 1310. But you said there was no coal in Annahone ? — I said that whatever coal had been there has already been worked out, or the coal has been destroyed by water ; it will never again be recovered, I am satisfied of that. Dr. Lyons. 1311. You do not think it is feasilile to work the Annahone field any further ? — No, not the Annahone coalfield. 1312. Is that from the water getting in as you have described r — And from the exceedingly broken character of the strata which would render the opening of this old tract almost impos- sible, I think. 1313. And the inflow of the water? — Yes, and the inflow of the water, because the old workings would of course be full of water. Chairman. 1314. Have you anything to add to j-our evidence with reference to this coalfield? — I may state that the Tyrone coalfield consists of two tructs, one in which the coal measures come up to the surface, as illustrated by that section in the wall where the l)lack portion comes up to the edge, but the coal beds pass below newer formations in the direction of Lough Neagh. (^Copies oj' the 6-inch Geological Survey map icere handed in.) 1315. What is your opinion of the Ulster coal fields generally; is it capable of development?— Yes, it is. 131G. In what district? — In this dislrict of the county Tyrone there arc a large number of seams of which several are of considerable value. 1317. Would SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 71 18 May 1885-] Professor Hull, ll.d.,f.k.s. r Continued. Dr. Lyons. 1317. Would you kindly specify those which you consider of special value and capable of being worked ?— One is called the Brackaveel coalfield, that is in Coal Island, I am now speaking of the Coal Island field exclusively, it Is a good seam so far us I understand, and about five feet thick. Below it at a depth of 84 feet is the Gortnaskea coal, of which the upper two feet are cannel, and the lower four feet coal ; in all about six feet. I will not say that it is solid coal throughout of this great thickness, but that is the thickness which is given. Chairman. 1318. At what depth below the surface does that coal lie ? — It depends upon the position ; it crops out and dips towards the north-eastward. 1319. When you say 84 feet, you mean 84 feet below the upper seam ? — Below the Bracka- veel. 1320. Are the coalfields you are now telling us of well situated for communication by rail- ■^vay ? — ^They are. Then below the Gortnaskea is the seam called the Derry coal, of about 4 feet 6 inches thick ; then below that there is another called the Yard seam, from 2 feet 6 to 3 feet thick. 1321. Is there one called the Baltiboy seam ? — There is ; but that is a sulphurous coal, and I have not mentioned it. Then below the Yard coal is the Creena, of which there is 14 inches of very good cannel, giving a large quantity of oil ; the total thickness of this seam is about 4 feet 6. Then the lowest of the workable seams is the Drumglass seam, which is worked in the colliery near Dungannon; it is variable, but you may take the thickness at 4 feet to 4 feet 6 of ordinary coal. Then all those seams pass underneath the new red sandstone formation and other other newer formations, still in the direction of Lough ISeagh, so that I feel satisfied that the concealed coalfield is at least double the size of the visible coalfield. Chairman. 1322. Are any of the coals that you have enumerated worked at the present time ? — They have been worked, but they have been worked in a very bad manner, that is to say, in a series of small pits close together and in quite an un- systematic manner. 1323. Is there great capability of improve- ment in their working? — There is a very great capability of improvement in their working. I have estimated the amount of coal in that coal area as follows. I take the visible coalfield at 2,420 acres, with about 6,100,000 tons net. 1324. That coal is of good quality, is it? — It is of fair quality ; it is used in the neighbour- hood. 1325. Is it all bituminous? — Yes, it is all bituminous. Mr. Ewart. 1326. How would that compare with the Scotch coal? — It is about the quality of second class Scotch coal ; but I am not prepared to say that there are not seams in the Tyrone coalfield that would hear comparison with any coal in Great Britain. 0.98. Chairmati. 1327. Is it of such a quality that it will bear carriage well ? — That depends upon how it is mined ; if it is well mined and packed with care it will come out in good square blocks. There are in all 26,000,000 tons of coal available net from that coalfield. Mr. Woodall. 1328. May we understand what you mean by the concealed coalfield? — That underneath the new red sandstone. Chairman. 1329. What would be the area that would produce that quantity of coal ? — The concealed area I take to be about twice that of the visible, the visible being 2,420 acres ; that would make altogether 7,260 acres. 1330. How deep do you place that concealed coalfield?— Some of the seams, those for example which lie at the bottom of the whole series of coals, would no doubt be at a very great depth, perhaps 3,600 feet in some places at the extreme depth : it might be 3,000 feet, speaking roughly, to the Drumglass coal at its greatest depth under the new red sandstone. 1331. Accordiuii to your opinion that district would afford a very valuable output of coal if enterprise could be found to apply to it? — Yes, that is the district which ought to supply the manufacturing districts of the north of Ireland with a very large amount of coal for manufac- turing purposes. 1332. What is the nearest port at which that coal would be put out? — There is a canal at Coal Island which puts us in communication with Lough Neagh, the Ulster Canal and with the River Bann. Mr. Cropper. 1333. What would be the depth of the visible field ?— There are probably about 2,000 feet of visible strata with coal ; then if you add 1,000 feet for the greatest depth of the overlying new red sandstone and the other formations, that would make 3,000 feet to the lowest seam, but of course the other seams would be shallower. Mr. Sexton. 1334. It may be said to vary from 2,000 feet to nothing?— In the visible coalfield from 2,000 feet to nothing, and in the concealed coalfield from 3,000 feet up to the lip, or me new red sandstone. 1335. What is the shallowest depth of the concealed coalfield ? — Where the new red sand- stone field sets in ; the lip or the margin. Dr. Lyons. 1336. In what direction is the dip of the coal? — Towards the east and north. 1337. How does that compare with the work- ing depths of coal in England ? — They are work- ing to that depth ia lingland, in Lancashire even now; or at all events to 2,500 feet. 1338. So that a depth of 3,000 feet does not take it beyond a possibility of working? — No; the limit of depth which I took in my estimate of the coal-resources some years ago (1864) was 4,000 feet as the workable limit, depending upon the two elements of temperature and pressure. 14 1339. What 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 May 188.5.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Chairman. 1339. What do you say aa to the quality of coal in this district as compared with coal in other parts of Ireland ; is it first class ? — It is of more value than the coal in other parts of Ireland, and as far as it is possible to judge from the meagre sanij)les that are available, 1 ii'ave no doubt that some of these seams are of good quality. 1340. Passing to county Antrim, the coal there has been pretty nearly worked out, has it not ? — That is in the Ballycastle coalfield on the extreme coast north of Larne. 1341. In that district the coa! is covered by basaltic rock to a very considerable depth? — It is, to a very considerable depth. 1342. In Murlogh Bay they are still working beds of coal, are they not ? — Thei'e are two seams which have been worked, and they may be work- able still, but in fact they are so altered in their constitution by the presence of the basalt, that I do not know whether they are likely to be of very much value. 1343. The collery there is supposed to be the oldest in all Ireland ? — It was the first ; and in the first workings which were opened about a century ago, some very old tools were discovered, picks of hardened wood and so on, which showed that the seams were worked at a time which is not historical as far as that district is concerned, 1344. What made it more curious is that the tools were found in a gallery imbedded in stalac- tite ? — I daresay that was so, but it is not within my own knowledge. 13-15. That was 100 years ago ? — Yes. 1346. How were they able to work the coal underneath the basaltic rock ? — The reason is that the seams crop out in the cliffs of Ballycastle and Murlogh Bay, and they were worked in from the face of the cliffs. 1347. Is not there this peculiarity about the coal there, that it is partly anthracite and partly bituminous coal? — Yes. 1348. That is found in no other part of Ireland? — That is in consequence of sheets of bituminous coal having been converted into anthracite by the proximity of sheets of basalt. 1349. Is it your opinion that the Antrim coal- fields present much opportunity of develop- ment ? — I do not look upon it that there is much to be done there ; there may be 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 tons that could be worked there. 1350. You think those coalfields are not to be compared with the Tyrone coalfield? — They are not be compared with the Tyrone coalfield. 1351. Is there any other coalfield in h-elaud that you would place in comparison with the coalfield of Tyrone ? — Certainly not. 1352. It stands A I for development? — It does, 1353. In county Monaghan there is one small coalfield or basin, ? — Yes. 1354. I see Sir Robert Kane puts it that there is a small basin resting upon the carboniferous limestone ? — That is a thin seam of anthracite in the Silurian rocks which crops up to the surface and is probably of marine origin, that is to say, derived from fucoids, the sea-weeds which were in the sea at the time of the forma- tion of the beds themselves ; but it is not a coalfield in the ordinary sense of the word. Lough Dr. Lynns. 1355. Is it of any extent ? — No, it is not at all : it comes up nearly vertical ; it has been worked, but it is not of any consequence at all. Chairman. 1356. In the Province of Connaught the Shannon flows down in almost the centre of the coal district ? — Yes, through what has been called the Arigna coal and iron district, 1357. The area of the coalfield there, I see, is placed by Sir Robert Kane at a very high figure ? — I daresay that includes what I do not coiisider coal measures at all ; that is to say, the shales over the limestone and part of the millstone grit; it cannot amount to any very large figure. 1358. But the hills surrounding Lough Allen form the coalfield, do they not? — Yes, they do ; the summits of the hills are composed of coal measures and millstone gnt, and there are two or three scams of coal in these strata forming little isolated table lands rising above Allen. Colonel King-Harman. 1359. Would you specify what hills you mean; are there any on the east of the Shannon ? — There are two shown upon the plan, north and south of the River Arigna ; namely, Kilionan and Altagovrlan ; there is a coal tract of the Sheveaneirin, which means the iron mountain. Chriirman.. 1360. In that part of Ireland the coal is to be found in four counties partially, Roscommon, SliiiO, Leitrim, and Cavan? — -Yes, that is so. 1361. But in small quantities? — Yes, in small quantities ; the seams are isolated and of no great depth. 1362. What number of collieries are at work now in that district ? — I have not been to the district for four or five years ; there were only two or three small collieries at work at that time, and I daresay they are working still. Colonel King-Harman. 1363. As a matter of fact they are working, and have been for some time ? — I accept your information. Mr. Sexton. 1364. You have no figures of these coal work- ings, have you ? — I have not. Dr. Lyons. 1365. I would like to ask you now a question I put to you some time ago in writing, namely, at what period was this coalfield last investigated in any scientific way. My impression, as far as I have been able to gather from the history of the coalfields, and the inquiries that I have been able to make, is that there has been no fresh thorough investigation since the one that was made some- where about the years 1813 to 1818 by Mr, GritHth as he then was, afterwards Sir Richard Griffith, and that any statements made in refer- ence to it since have been merely copies of the results of his inquiries ; I asked you to be good enough to ascertain all about that with the view of asking you, as I now venture to do, whether it would be worth while to have a fresh investigation made under proper authorities of the actual contents, probabilities and possibilities of SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 73 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Dr. Lyons — continued. of this coalfield? — A very interesting j'^^'P^'" was written upon the subject by the late Mr. Du Noyer in the Geological Magazine, some 15 or 16 years ago; but since then the officei's of the ■Geological Survey have thoroughly examined and mapped the whole district, and the maps are in the hands of the public ; I have them on the table. 1366. But Mr. Du Noyer was not himself a person capable of making an original investiga- tion, nor did he make any original investigation, as far as I know ? — Though he was an officer of the Geological Survey, he wrote the paper rather as an amateur ; it was a sort of a preliminary statement upon the subject; I think, the Arigna coal and iron district was being worked in 1832 ; the iron ores were formerly smelted at Arigna in the years 1818 to 1832, and an even earlier existence is mentioned by Dr. Boate in his work upon the resources of Ireland, pub- lished in 1755. Colonel King-Harman. 1367. You mean that the buildings Avhich remain in the site were put up in 1830 and 1832?— Yes. Dr. Lyons. 1368. I would ask you if any sufficient geological investigations have been made with regard to that coalfield and its contents and working capacity since the estimate made by Mr. Griffith ? — Then my reply is that the Geological Survey have done so ; and if the Committee will allow me, I should be glad to put in the maps of the district. {^Copies were handed in.) 1369. Can you put in the report of the Geological Survey upon the subject? — The survey is only recently completed, but I would like to explain that when Dr. Lyons wrote to me upon the subject of " the western coalfields," it was the district of Clare and Limerick north and south of the Shannon that I supposed the honour- able Member was referring to, and not that of Connaught ; if that was not so, then my reply to him would not bear upon the subject. 1370. Have you any idea of the possible contents of that coalfield ? — I have made an estimate of the quantity of coal available. Colonel King-Harman. 1371. Do you mean for the whole of the field? —Yes. 1372. Including Slleveaneirin ? — Yes; includ- ing Slieveaneirin; I make it in round numbers about 10,000,000 tons available. Chairman, 1373. You put it below both Sir Eobert Kane and Mr. Griffith ?— Yes. 1374. I see in the report made by Mr. Griffith that he places the acreage of the southern divi- sion at 2,800 acres, and 1,200 acres of 3-feet coal in the western division ; and concluded from his examination that 30,000,000 tons of coal might be raised out of the two divisions. Then we_ have Sir Robert Kane's Report that Mr. Griffith had over-estimated it, placinor it at 20,000,000 ; you reduce it still further ?— I can 0.98. Chairman — continued, explain that in part by saying that part has been worked out since ; but when you speak of the two and three feet coal in that district, you must make very large deductions, because the seams vary so much in thickness as to become unwork- able in some places; and I think that Sir Richard Griffith made an over-estimate by supposing the seams to be the same thickness throughout. 1375. What would be the quantity raised yearly at the present time ? — If we say 1,000 tons, that would be about as much as it is. 1376. Sir Richard Griffith confined liimself solely to the acreage in the southern and western divisions of Lough Allen ; he did not give that figure in his report as the whole of the Con- naught output, because he says in his report that 30,000,000 tons might be raised out of those two divisions, that is of the south and west of Lough Allen ; I do not understand him to say that the whole of Connaught comes under that descrip- tion ? — Not the Slieveaneirin district ; I am not able to say how that may be. Dr. Lyons. 1377. I believe you have had communications from several local gentlemen, including Mr. Lauder, who have made representations as to the necessity of fresh borings being made to test the posdbility of the existence of further supplies of coal ?— Yes, I have. 1378. Do you think it reasonable that fresh Inquiries should be made to test the possibihty of other seams of coal being there ? — I am per- fectly satisfied that there are no seams of coal there which are not upon the map of the Geolo- gical Survey. 1379. Do you think that no fresh light could be thrown upon the possibility of any fresh coal existing there, and the possibility of working it by any additional inquiry ?— I do not think th'ere could be the least possible light thrown upon the subject ; it is not as if it were a district buried beneath newer deposits and upon the level of the plain, but those coalfields occupy the tops of the hills and the sides of the valleys, and therefore their contents are perfectly well known. Mr. Ewart. 1380. But have there not been i-ecently dis- covered some valuable seams of coal in England at so great a depth that the geologists of 20 years ago would have said that there was nothino- to be got there ? — In England it was quite a different case, because the coal fields there pase under newer formations, and as time progressed, and as mining progressed, we got further from the outcrop to the districts in which the coal fields were concealed ; therefore, there have been con- siderable discoveries In the last 20 or 30 years in England, but is is quite dilferent In the case of the Connaught beds. Mr. Sexton, 138 L You think there is no considerable amount concealed in Connaught ? — I think it is impossible. K 1382. Considering 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.e.s. \_Continued. Chairman. 1382. Considering the evidence that has been fiven concerning tiie coal districts in this ])art of reland, do you agree with this, that coal cannot be profitably worked in that country ; or do you agree that it can be worked at a profit ? — I am of opinion that it can be. Mr. Kicart. 1383. You ai-e aware that there was a very vigorous effort made to develope the Tyrone coal field about 10 or 12 years ago ? — Yes. 1384. And that it failed because of the water ? — That, I believe, was the cause why it failed. The water that had to be contended with from the old workings in the 4-feet Drumglass seam proved to be greater than the engine which was put down for pumping could deal with. 1385. There was a considerable capital raised by that company ; do you know why they did not further try to cope with the difficulty ? — I am in hopes that the colliery will be reopened, with fresh pumping machinery, but it is entirely a question of capital. 1386. Have you formed any opinion what money it will take to make that experiment ? — I could not give an opinion upon that offhand. The honourable Member for Drogheda, Mr. Whit worth, I think, is the owner ot the colliery. 1387. I know Mr. Dickson, the Member for DungannoD, took a very active part in it ? — He did. 1388. Do you think there is coal there, and that, if there were means to make a good trial, clearing this place of water and so on, coal could be got out at a reasonable cost, so as to compete with imported coal ?— I am of that opinion, cer- tainly for local purposes, and there is a very large demand for local purposes in the neighbourhood ofDungannon. Chairman. 1389. We will now go on, if you please, to iron ; 1 came here impressed with the view that there was no ironstone in Ireland worth working ; is that your opinion? — Certainly not. I must here express dissent from my learned friend, Dr. Sullivan, upon that point. 1390. Was it not the fact that in former times a great quantity of excellent iron was sent out of Ireland as an article of commerce ; have we not that recorded in history? — There has been some from County Antrim. 1391. Is it not also given as one reason why Ireland is so stripped of trees, that the wood was used extensively for smelting iron ? — I believe that to be the case ; there are historical records to show that. 1392. Therefore you do not agree with people who hold the opinion that there was no iron in Ireland worth smelting ?— No ; the old iron slag heaps are to be found to disprove it. 1393. The iron is not nearly exhausted, and what has been done before can be done again ? — Quite so ; there are as good fish in the sea as have ever been taken out of it. 1394. There are three kinds of iron in Ireland ; what is to be found in the bog mines, tliat is to say, the bog iron ore, the rock iron, and the mountain iron ; those three are given by Sir Chairman — continued. Kohert Kane as the three qualities of iron ore to be found in Ireland ? — Yes. 1395. Will you tell the Committee in what districts each of those qualities of iron is found? — As regards the bog iron ore, that of course is a very local deposit, only to be found where there are bogs ; but it is being worked extensively in different parts of the County Donegal for the purification of gas, and it is shipped to England and to Dublin and other places ; but of course no estimate could be given as regards that. It is entirely a local and a very uncertain product. 1396. With regard to the rock-iron, where is that found ? — I am not sure what Sir Richard Griffith meant by the rock ore, but I would divide the merchantable and larger iron ores into two groups, what I should call the clay iron-stone of the Arigna district, and the pisolitic hematite of the County Antrim. 1397. The clay iron stone is the best? — The Arigna district ore is of very good quality. 1398. The mountain iron is chiefly found in what is called the Arigna coalfield ? — It might be called that; that is the principal district where this ore has been smelted and worked, but it no doubt exists under a very large tract of this hilly district on both sides of Lough Allen. 1399. With reference to Slieveaneirin that is a mountain Avhere excellent iron ore is found ? — It is there, but that is not the place where it was worked, especially for the Ario-na Iron Works. 1400. AVhat iron works are carried on now in the district ? — None at all. Mr. W. H. Smith. 1401. Is it contiguous to the lake ? — The ironstone is found in the shale coloured light blue overlying the limestone in the middle diagram (on the wall-, showing the section across the Leitrim coalfield ; the yellow is millstone grit, and below that is the light blue called the Yoredale Shale, and it is in that formation that the iron ore is found. 1402. I believe the production of iron is dis- continued in Ireland, is it not ? — There is no smelting at all in Ireland that I am aware of at the present moment. 1403. The iron-stone is sent out with the iron in it, is it not ? — Yes, it is. Mr. Woodall. 1404. Would you distinguish between what we call in England calcining and smelting ? — The calcining process is preliminary to the smelting ; it is also called " roasting," and the effect of it is to convert the carbonate of iron into a peroxide. 1405. Is it a cheap process ? — Yes ; that would be, in my opinion, the best way to work the iron ore of the Arigna district ; namely, to calcine it on the spot with the coal of the district, but not to go on to the smelting, because I doubt whether the smelting could be economically carried on. 1406. When ore was exported from Ireland, was it previously calcined, or not? — I do not think it was ever exported from the Arigua dis- trict. I was referring to the Ballycastle district where there is the Blackbaud ironstone. 1407. Now SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 75 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.k.s. [ Continued. Chairman. 1407. Now, in the Arigna district there is not much worked, is there ? — No ; in the neighbour- hood of Lough Allen there ia not much worked at present, if any. There were iron furnaces working there from 1818 to 1832, but they failed, and since then there have been none worked. 1408. Anthracite is the best for working iron, is it not ? — Yes, but it requires a strong blast. 1409. Coal is now smelted by the hot blast, as it is called, is it not ? — Yes. 1410. Therefore you do not use as mucli coal as you did for smelting iron? — There has been a great diminution in the quantity of coal now used for smelting purposes. When coal first began to be used by Dud Dudley in Staffordshire, he used from six to seven tons to produce one ton of pig iron ; now it has been reduced to 30 cwt. of coke for one ton of pig iron in the Middlesboro' district. 1411. In county Antrim, where you told us there is so much coal, is there any reason why iron should not be smelted there, instead of being sent to Cardiff and Newport, and so on ? — I quite admit that it might be. 1412. If the coal were worked in sufficient quantities would it not be very easy to smelt the whole of the iron you have in that district in the nortli of Ireland instead of sending it abroad to smelt it ? — Yes. 1413. In that way you would employ a great deal of labour and save a good deal of money to the country .' — It is one of the i-esults we may hope for in Ireland ; but the late Mr. Chaine went very carefully into the results of smelting iron in county Antrim, at Lai'ne, and he in- formed me that lie was of opinion that it could not be done at the present time at a profit. 1414. It is mentioned that in some districts charcoal is used for the smelting of iron ? — It is not at the present time. 1415. But it was formerly? — It may have been, but not within memory. 1416. Do you see any reason why turf char- coal should not be made available for the smelting of iron ? — It might, but not, of course, in very large furnaces. 1417. You would require a very much larger quantity of it than of coal, would you not ? — You would require at least double the quantity. 1418. I see that Sir Robert Kane, in his work, is of opinion that Ireland has peculiar advantaires for smelting iron ; how do you explain that ? — At that time, I presume, he was referring to tiie forests, which were very extensive over the country. 1419. But not in his time ? — No, not in his time. 1420. But he does not put it in the past tense ; /le says, " Ireland has advantages," not " had"; does he allude, do you think, to a deficiency in the working of the coal ; that if the coal were properly worked, iron might be smelted and pro- duced in large quantities in Ireland ? — That is very possible. 1421. In some cases coke is mixed with char- coal for smelting? — I do not think charcoal is used for smelting anywhere in the British Islands except in very special cases, for the very finest steel ; it is entirely coke or coal that is used. 0.98. Chairman — continued. 1422. But wood charcoal is considered better, if you have it in sufficient quantities, than even anthracite coal ? —There is no doubt that the finest Damascus steel and steel from India, is smelted with charcoal. 1423. Therefore, if you could make large quantities of charcoal available, would not that be a reason why the attention of Ireland should be turned to planting trees? — I think there might be a very fine class of iron produced from the local ores of the north nf Ireland if they were smelted with charcoal, or, still better, with coal, upon a large scale. 1424. I have not yet touched upon other minerals; have you anything further to add with respect to those you have been dealing with ? — I have prepared an estimate of pisolitic ores of the county Antrim, which is decidedly the most important iron field in Ireland. 1425. Whereabouts is that? — It occupies a very large portion of county Antrim ; the iron ore I am speaking about is found in the basaltic formation which is coloured red upon the map ; it lies about the centre of the basaltic series which, when it is all present, is about 1,000 feet in thickness ; the iron ore is generally found about 600 feet from the bottom of the basaltic flows ; if you commence at the bottom of the basaltic sheets in which it occurs, when you get up about 600 feet from the base, you generally come to this pisolitic iron ore. Then it is covered over by fresh sheets of what is called the uppei basalt; that has been denuded away over a very large area, but there still remains a great deal of such. I have made an estimate of the area still remaining containing the pisolitic ore ; I should here express my acknowledgments to Mr. Symes, of the Geological Survey, who has been over this district upon the Survey, and who made the estimate for me. We came to the conclusion that there is an area of about 167 square miles containing this pisolitic iron ore. 1426. In one county only? — In county Antrim only ; giving a gross tonnage of about 232,000,000. Deducting 20 per cent, for loss of various kinds, I make the available quantity for future use about 185,600,000 tons. 1427. That is of the iron stone ?- -Of the best ore, containing about 40 per cent, of iron ; besides which there is a very large quantity of inferior or alluminous ore, which is very good for mixing in the furnaces with the best hematite of England. 1428. At what depth generally does this iron stone lie ? — At no very great depth, because it can be always worked by means of adits driven into the sides of the hill. It generally occurs in the upper part of the higher hills of Antrim, and crops out along the edges of the escarpment, and in that way it is worked. 1429. Is that worked now ?— It is worked now to a considerable extent. 1430. But it is not smelted ? — It is not smelted, it is all exported. I can give you the quantities that have been raised since the year 1879 inclusive, to the year 1883. In the year 1879 the output from county Antrim was 155,733 tons. 1431. That is only the stone? — Only the ore. In 1880 the output was 231,132 tons ; iu 1881 it was 198,430 tons, showing a decrease- k2 in 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 Mny 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. in 1882 the output was 189,724 tons; and in 1883 the output was 146,452 tons. I have got those figures from the Board of Trade. 1432. How much of that is smelted in the country ? — Not one ton. Mr. Ewart. 1433. Is it calcined? — It scarcely requires to be calcined, it is in the oxide state, and is put direct into the furnace. Chairman. 1434. Where does that iron ore go to? — It is principally exported to Cumberland, some to Scotland, and some to North Wales, and also to South Wales. 1435. From what port is it exported chiefly ? — From the ports of Lame and Belfast, and a little from Londonderry. Mr. Eicart. 1436. It is in request for blending, I believe ; in several cases where the other ore failed, they have fallen back upon this ore exclusively, and have found tliat it answered very well ? — It has answered very well ; I understand that it makes what is called " soft steel," that is a tenacious kind of steel highly adapted for ship-building. 1437. Is it comparable with the ore of this country ? — In some respects it is ; it is free from sulphur and phosphorus. 1438. Is it not shipped to the United States ? — I daresay it is in ballast. Chairman. 1439. If you want iron for your rails or per- manent way, or for ironwork, where do you get your iron from? — I suppose there is no difficulty about that. 1440. You do not manufacture it yourself? — We do not. 1441. Hardly any iron is made up in Ireland, is there ? — There is a great deal of pig iron im- ported into Ireland and made up, but none from the ore. 1442. You do not see any reason why, with the abundance of coal and the abundance of iron ore, that industry might not be fostered at home? — Certainly. I think the proximity of the Tyrone coalfield to the Antrim ironfield and to Loch Allen, ought to enable the two minerals to be brought readily together. 1443. You have already given it as your opinion that these coalfields might be profitably worked, whether by companies or by individuals, who could afford to work them?— Certainly. I refer especially to the Tyrone coalfield. I do not think the Arigna coalfields are worth bring- ing into the calculation, except for the purpose of local smelting or calcining the ore. Colonel King-Harman. 1444. But if it docs not j)ay at the present moment in England, how would you expect it to pay in Ireland ?— We all know that the iron trade is at the present time depressed, and the Antrim iron trade has felt the effects ; and it is in con- sequence of that that there has been a falling off In the last few years in the output from Antrim. Chairman, 1445. Before we leave the question of iron, have you any opinion to give the Committee respecting the working or the character of ores generally, in relation to the iron question? — I think there is .abundance of iron in the country to supply the local demand even of the great manufacturing districts of the north ; and, per- haps, some day, when the value of iron increases, and improvements are made, as no doubt they will be, in producing it, it may be found advan- tageous to bring coal as far as it is necessary from England and Scotland into the north of Ireland, for the purpose of smelting ore on the spot. 1446. Putting aside the local coal, do you think that it would be profitable to bring coal from England or Scotland, and smelt the ore in Ireland? — Provided the markets rise. Under the present conditions it would not be so ; but I think the present state of the iron trade is exceptional. 1447. I think I may take it as your opinion that, as regards the south of Ireland, the same observations do not apply ? — They do not apply to the south. 1448. You do not think that the iron to be found in the south of Ireland is such as might be profitably worked ? — I do not think there is any of importance to the south or the centre of Ireland. 1449. Then with regard to copper ; what is the state of things as regards that mineral ? — That is really a specialty, which I would rather say as little as possible about. I think that if Professor O'Reilly, my colleague, is examined upon that subject, he will be able to give the Committee better information upon it than I can. 1450. I had a paper forwarded to me from the " Tuam Herald," to the effect that near Gort a silver mine has been recently opened, and is being well worked ? — I believe so, but I do not know anything about it personally ; that is the silver lead ore. 1451. The lead ore is found in several parts of Ireland ; in the counties Dublin and Wick- low, and also in county Wexford ? — Yes, it is found in Wicklow in the granite. There are veins in the granite above Glendalough, where it has been for many years extensively worked by the Mining Company of Ireland. 1452. Then in the north we understand there is lead to be found. I notice that in a place called Derryluce, in county Armagh, it is found mixed with the clay slate ? — There are lead mines scattered over various parts of Ireland, but I do not possess any reliable information about them. Unfortunately there never have been any proper mining plans preserved in Ire- land from former times, and all that one knows about them is mere hearsay ; but I think that my colleague. Professor O'Reilly, and Sir Robert Kane, if he comes over, will be able to give the Committee information about that subject. 1453. Of course Sir Robert Kane's statement as to the existence of lead in many districts would be much the same now as it was in the year 1845 ?— Yes. 1454. And the same with reference to the silver? — The silver goes with the lead. 1 may mention that at a recent period some of the old veins SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iRELANd). 77 18 May 1885.] Professor HuLL, ll.d., f.b.s. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, veins on the south side of Bantrr Bay had been re-opened, and I think with great promise. The veins are undoubtedly there, and they formerly gave a large amount of ore ; but during the re- cent ti'oublous times they were abandoned ; I hope now, however, that we shall have quiet in the land, and that those industries will revive. 1455. I think with regard to slate, you are not so conversant as you are with regard to other products ? — I can only say that slate is being worked at a profit at the Killaloe Quarries, and the other places where it occurs ; but we have to compete with the North Wales slate, which takes the lead in that article of any country in the world, and their production is at present facili- tated by the command they have of machinery, and the large number of hands, and the means of transpoi't. 1456. Is it not stated that there have been slates got at Valentia equal to any that are to be found at the Bangor Quarries? — I would not give a comparison, but there are excellent slates there, no doubt. 1457. At the present time you do not use your Valentia slates, do you ? — I think they are being worked at present. 1458. But is not there a very large importa- tion of Bangor slates to Dublin at the present time ?— Yes; I do not think any of the Valentia slate finds its way to the Dublin market, though there may be some Killaloe slates there. 1459. Now with regard to mai-bles, we know that there are various parts of Ireland where there are very beautiful marbles; there are marble quarries in Kilkenny, are there not? Yes, there are marble quarries in Kilkenny. 1400. They have the green marble in Galway ? — Yes, that is the Serpentine. 1461. And also marble is found at Armagh ; is that the black marble ?— No, the marble' at Armagh is variegated ; dove-coloured, and slightly reddish ; it is not now worked, however, to any great extent, but it is a very beautiful marble _ 1462. You have a reddish marble with yellow tmts in Armagh, which contains fossil remains'— Yes, It belongs to the carboniferous limestone 1 would not describe it as a red marble with yellow veins, but brownish-red, or dove-coloured varying to yellow or mottled red. Then there is a very handsome marble in county Cork, from Churchtown and Little Island. These quarries have been used very extensively, and they have been used, amongst other places, for the balus- trades of the City Hall at Manchester; the blocks were cut and polished at the works of Messrs. Sibthorpe & Son, Dublin, where they have very fine machinery for the purpose. 1463. The white marble of Galway is said to be most excellent for all building purposes, it is hard and not at all brittle ?— There is very little white marble in Galway ; there is some in IJonegal, but it is not what you would call a statuary marble. 1464. The black marble is in county Down, and also in Mayo ?-There is some in Kilkenny and in Galway ; I do not know of its bein- in Uown. ° 1465. A place is mentioned by Sir Robert Kane, called Craig Lea, in county Down, where u.yfe. Chairman — continued. the black marble is found ? — I am not aware of that. 1406. Are those marbles that you describe worked up ? — No, not at all. 1467. Are they not made use of in any way; take the Armagh marble for example ? —The Armagh marble was scarcely worked when I was there a few years ago ; I have not been there recently ; I am satisfied that it is not worked now to anything like the extent that it was in former times. 1468. I understand that one of the principal churches in Dublin has been lately decorated with Irish marble, is that so"? — Yes. 1469. Is that St. Patrick's Cathedral ?— Yes, I think the altar stejjs have been laid with red marble from county Cork. 1470. Considering that those marbles you have mentioned are nil capable of being made available for purposes of commerce, such as chimney pieces, floors, and staircases, and in a variety of ways, they are not, as a matter of fact, made use of for those purposes, are they? — I should not say that at all ; I should say they are; I think the Kilkenny marble is being worked, and so is the Cork marble and the Galway black marble, and also the serpentine from Connemara, in West Galway. 1471. Are you not of opinion that much more might be done in that direction? — I should think that a great deal more might be done. 1472. I suppose at this moment a great deal of marble is imported?— Yes; from Devonshire and from Italy. Colonel Kiiig-Harman. 1473. But that is statuary marble? — Not only statuary marble, but other marbles. Mr. Sexton, 1474. Is there any marble fit for statuary in Ireland ? — Not that I am aware of. Chairman. 1475. With regard to limestone, what can you tell the Committee about that ? — Limestone is the principal rock of the central plain of Ireland, and it is therefore very abundant. A good deal of it is, no doubt, capable of being worked for hydraulic purposes, and also for building pur- poses. ° 1476. Has the use of limestone and the work- ing of it up been interfered with and checked by the want of adequate railway and canal com- munication, that is not only as relating to the defective character of it, but also to the dearness of transit ? —I am not prepared to state that ; but I can state as the general result of my experi- ence, that the railway companies do not cive sufficient facilities for developing local products ; I do not speak from personal knowledge, but from general hearsay and complaints which I have heard in various directions, that the rail- way companies rates are so high that they are positively detrimental to the local produce. 1477. Would that remark of yours apply to many other articles of commerce besides lime- stone ?— Yes, it would apply to stone, to pottery, and to other things; I might give you an example m point. About five or six years ago I visited at Coal Island, in county Tyrone, the works of ^3 a firm 78 MTNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 May I885.J Professor Hull, ll.d., f.k.s. [ Continued, Chairman — continued. a firm established for the production of pottery of various kinds, of the very highest class, made from the clays of the district, and, judging from the specimens I s.uv, I have never seen anything better in Staffordshire. The owner informed me that he was exceedingly anxious to get a market, or rather a means of doing an export trade at Londonderry, but he found it impossible to get rates from the railway company which would enable him to send his wa-es to Londonderry ; it was a matter of life and death to him to get them exported from Londonderry ; I understand those works have since been shut up. Mr. Sexton. 1478. Has one railway company the whole run from there to Londonderry ? — Very nearly ; principally the North Western of Ireland Com- pany. Chairman. 1479. You give it as your opinion, I think, that the defective state of inland communication in Ireland is very detrimental to the develop- ment of its native industries? — I have no hesita- tion in saying that that is the general result. Mr. Sydney Buxton. £480. I understand from your evidence that you do not agree with Dr. Sullivan, that minerals are hardly worth speaking of in Ireland ? — No ; I disagree with that view. 1481. And the chief mineral which you think is most available in Ireland is coal ; that is to say, the most valuable? — I think I should put iron before coal. 1482. I understood you to say that it is only in one part of Ireland that you think coal could be produced profitably ? — Yes, in any large quantity ; but I hold that in Leinster or in the Castle Comer district there is room for a very large expansion of the existing coal produce, which can be only brought about when a railway or some proper fac^ilities are given for the carry- ing of it to the various parts of the country. 1483. And I understand you to say that, even where you think coal might be produced profit- ably, under favourable circumstances, under the present condition of the trade, and with the E resent low prices in the United Kingdom, ardly any coalfield could be profitably worked, even with a fresh application of capital? — I am not prepared to say that if the collieries were there they could not be worked at a profit ; as a matter of fact, the Drumglass Colliery is being worked. 1484. But I said, " a new application of capi- tal " ? — I cannot regard the present condition of the coal trade as otherwise than abnormal. 1485. Could you at all estimate what price you would say coal ought to sell at to make it worth while to apply fresh capital to the Tyrone coal- fields ? — That is a very difficult question, and if I answer it it must be very approximately. I should think if it were from 7 ». to 8 s. at the pit's mouth it would be remunerative. 1486. And what price at the present time should you say it would be at the pit's mouth ? — It may be that at the present moment, but I can haidly say, because the Tyrone coal trade is Mr. Sydney Buxton — continued, entirely ruled, I should say, by the local price of the imported coal from England and Scotland, which has to be carried by sea and by rail. 1487. Then, practically, you imagine at the ])resent moment, speaking of the Tyrone coal- field, that it would not be possible to get 7 s. or 8 s. a ton at the pit's mouth if new mines were opened? — I do not really know what the price is at the pit's mouth, but I think it is ruled by the local price of imported coal from England. 1488. You said it could be worked at a profit, and I wanted to gather whether the present low price of coal would not prevent the fresh applica- tion of capital being profitably employed ? — It is very likely that the present low price would prevent the profitable application of capital ; but it is possible also that the present lime might be a good time to provide for enlarged working, with a view to the future rise of the price of coal. 1489. Speaking thi'oughout of the Tyrone coalfield, which seems to be the most likely one, what should you say is tlie reason it is not more worked now? — There is no doubt that at Coal Island, where it is shallow, and where the seams crop out, the coal has been very much broken by faults, and that that has discouraged mining upon an extensive scale ; but I am disposed to think that where the coal seams pass into the deeper portion of the concealed area, they are probably more regular and less affected by faults than they are near the outcrop, and that there large and valuable collieries, several of them, might be established. 1490. But should you say that it was chiefly from the lack of capital and enterprise, or from the want of confidence, that that coalfield was not more worked ? — It arises partly from ignor- ance, and from the want of a proper system of coal mining; the colliers of that district are very primitive in their notions about coal mining, and they have not had opportunities of seeing coal mining carried on in the systematic manner in which it is in the British coalfields. 1491. How would you propose to remedy that state of things ? — I should think it could only be remedied immediately by the intro'duction of colliers and colliery managers from England, or Wales, or Scotland. 1492. And how would you practically propose to attract capital to those fields ? — In the same way that capital is attracted to wherever there is a prospect of its being profitably employed ; in the first place, we have a great inanufactui'ing district in the north of Ireland, in Ulster, in immediate proximity to the Tyrone coalfields, and you would say with an immediate market at its very doors ; and when it is known that there are suflicient and good seams of coal at hand, you have there the elements by which capital is attracted, I apprehend. 1493. But while, as is now the case, furnaces axe being blown out in England, and mines closed, can you regard it as possible that capital, either Irish or English, could be attracted to those Irish coalfields? — I look to the future ; I consider that both the coal and iron industries at the present time in an abnormally are depressed condition. The present is not im- mediately the time for increasing the output cither SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 79 18 Mai/ 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. \_Coiitinued, Mr. Sydney Buxton. — continued, either of the one or the other, that I quite admit. 1494. Then seeing that these fields have not been properly worked at all, why should you be sanguine that capital would now be attracted to them ; what would the extra inducement be now compared to what there has been in the past ? — I can only say for the future, that both the coal and iron of England are being very rapidly worked out, and that in course of time these minerals must necessarily increase in value as the depth and the difficulties, and the increase of cost consequent upon the increase of depth, pro- ceed ; consequently there maybe in the future for Ireland the opening which she is at present incapable of taking advantage of, owing to the abundance of both minerals in the sister country. 1495. You do not propose any form of Govern- ment aid, do you ? — As a general proposition, I think those things are better left to local and per- sonal enterprise ; but I think that Government aid might in some way be aiforded for the pur- pose of making experimental borings ; for in- stance, in the neighbourhood of Lougii Neagh, for the purpose of testing practically what I have now given you theoretically, namely, the presence, under a considerable tract of country, of a good kind of coal at a workable depth. I think it would be very desirable indeed if by some process the facta could be established by actual experiment. 1496. At the expense of the Government? — Yes, at the expense of the Government. I think it is just as much a case for Government aid as the opening out of railways, and so on. I do not mean actually giving the public money, because we have no right to do that, but by advancing public money for the purpose. 1497. You have no desire to protect native coal, against English coal, for instance ? — No, I would not recommend that. 1498. \» here is the Tyrone coal mostly in use ? It has a local market entirely. 1499. Could you give the Committee, or could you put in, the total output for the last 10 years from the whole of the different beds ? — Not for the last 10 years. I am not at all sure whether those figures could be had. I have given it in certain cases for three years, both of the Tyrone coalfield and the Leinster coalfield. 1500. Would you be able to put in the total estimate of available good coal in Ireland? — I have given it for the diflerent coalfields, and it is only to add them together Ireland. — Estimated quantity of workable Coal, 209,000,000 tons, distributed as follows :— 1. Ballycastle, Co. Antrim - 12,0f;0,000 tons (Bituminoua and Anthracite). 2. Tyrone .... 80,000,000 „ (Bituminous). 3. Connaught (Arigna) - - 10,000,000 „ (Semi-bituminous). 4. Leinster (Castlecomer) -118,000,000 ,, (Anthracite). 6. TlppeKiry - . - . 24,000,000 „ (Anthracite). «. South-Westcm (Clare, - lo,000,000 „ (Anthracite). Limerick, Cork, &c.) TOTAt - 209,0110,000 tons net. The gross probably reaches 235,000,000 tons. 1501. Can you also give a rough estimate of the total capital employed in the different collieries now at work, and the total number of men em- ployed ?— I have no doubt I could get the total number of men, but I am not at all sure that I could get the capital. 1502. Have there been many accidents in the 0.98. Mr. Sydney T^uxton.. — continued. Irish collieries since they have been worked ? — There have been very few, 1503. I understand that one of the chief reasons why the coal has not been properly worked is, that the education, as it were, of the miners is not as good as it should be ; that they do not work it as ihey should ? — The miners do not understand the process of working it in a technical and scientific manner ; it ia a sort of hand-to-mouth system that they adopt at Coal Island. 1504. The two things which you would pro- pose, would be technical education and increased facilities of communication ? — I think the tech- nical education is most imjwrtant, and if I had known it to come within the scope of th'sinqury, I should have been prepared to give very decided evidence upon that matter. 1505. Secondly, increased communications ? — Yes, also increased communications. 1506. And a certain amount of borings at the expense of the Government ? — Yes, and a certain amount of borings at the expense of the Government, in positions to be properly selected. And 1 have no hesitation in saying that the Geological Survey is the department which would be in a position to give that in- formation. 1507. In addition to those three points, have you any further ways to suggest in which capital might be attracted to Irish industry ? — I am pre- pared to advocate very strongly the j)lantation of large portions of the country with trees. 1508. But I am speaking now merely in re- ference to minerals ? — I think there is abundance of capital in the country, particularly in Ulster, where there is a very large amount invested in reproducfive profitable works; and if the people of Ulster can only see that coal mining would be beneficial to them with regard to their industries, I have no doubt the capital would be forthcoming for the purpose ; but I think it is probable that there is a sort of prevalent disbelief in the fact of the presence of the coal there. 1509. You think that, practically, if the Go- vernment were to institute inquiries as to the amount of coal and its workability, and if com- munications were increased and some form of technical education could be introduced, there would then be a greater likelihood of capital being applied to minerals, and the minerals being much more worked than they have been hitherto? — I think so ; those are the principal neces- sities. Chairman. 1510. Is there not considerable industi'ial im- jjrovement generally going on in Ireland ; is not the attention of the Irish people being generally turned very much to the subject of industrial progress and improvement ; is not that to be seen in the daily press and in books and public meet- ings, and also by the exhibitions which have been held ? — Yes ; thei'e is a great endeavour on the part of many to foster and encourage industrial pursuits ; but to what extent these have succeeded is a point into which I would rather not enter at this moment. 1511. Is not the importance of industrial pros- perity as an element of material progress in Ire- land coming more home to the minds of the people ? — It is. k:4 1512. Did 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.e.s. \_Conlinued. Colonel Kivg-Harman, 1512. Did you in your experience ever know so many mechanics and artizans of a high class out of work as there are at the present moment ; take Dublin, for example ? — It is said that in Dublin there are a great many out of employ- ment, but I do not know to what extent. I have been very strongly of opinion that a great num- ber of the artizans out of employment are those who have not made the best use of their oppor- tunities. 1513. Take such cases as the coachbuilders' trade and the watchmakers' trade ; are the people in those trades largely out of work ? — I am not at all aware that there are many out of work in those particular branches. We have many coachbuilders at the present moment producing vehicles of the very best desciiption. 1514. Are you not aware that there are 30 less master coachbuilders working in Dublin now than there were 30 years ago? — I was not aware of that fact. 1515. Now going back to the mining industrial question, how near does the Tyrone coalfield approach to the main Antrim ironfield ; how near is it at present by rail, and how near could it be brought by such a railway as you would suggest should be made ? — It depends upon where the iron ore is brought to ; if it were brought to Belfast it would be the distance to Belfast. A great deal of the ore is brought to Belfast now ; therefore I am afraid I could not give an answer to that question. 1516. I apprehend that your idea is that the coal and iron would be brought together, and that foundries and ironworks would be established in consequence, not necessarily at Belfast, but in some place where the coal and iron would meet. You know the country ; you know where the richest iron ore exists. I want to know what would be best facility for bringing the coal and iron together ? — The principal district for pro- ducing theironore is somewhere in the neighbour- hood of Ballymena; that is to say, the rails bringing the ore converge there ; part of it goes to Larne at present and part by the Northern Counties Railway to Belfast ; and some suitable position between Belfost and Tyrone, I think, would be the place for a smelting works to be established. 1517. That is to say, somewhere about Bally- mena ? — No ; somewhere about Lisburn or Lur- gan, or possibly Portadown ; some intermediate place between the coal on the one hand and the iron on the other. 1518. You think the coal could be brought to the iron with sufficient facility and cheapness to make ironworks pay in Ireland when they are not paying in England at the present moment? — I am not prepared to say that. I have quali- fied my answer by saying that I consider the present state of the coal and iron trade excep- tionally depressed ; but that upon a revival of those trades the coal and iron trades could be worked beneficially in Ireland when they could not at the present time. 1519. Have you any data to go upon in ex- pressing that opinion, or is it the opinion of experts in any way ? — I think it is an opinion that is generally maintained in the trade. 1 520. Pardon me, I have been to Jarrow and Middlesbrough, and I find that an opposite opinion is entertained there? — But Middles- Colonel King-Harman — continued, brough, though it produces an enormous quantity of iron fit for castings and other purposes, does not produce the best kind of iron. 1521. But they do use Northumberland ore there ? — Yes, they do, but it is principally the local ore from the lias ; they might be flourishing in Middlesbrough when they were starving in North Lancashire. 1522. You do not think the Ballycastle coal could be made use of? — I do not think there is much remaining of that coal. 1523. You say that it is covered with basalt ? — Partly it is. 1524. Is there any other instance of coal co- vered with basalt that you are aware of? — Not to any great extent, but there is in South Staf- fordshire; for instance, at Rowley Regis it passes under the basalt. 1525. Is it there, as it were, fused into the form of anthracite ? — It becomes ultimately a completely unworkable cinder. 1526. With regard to the Tyrone coal ; you say it lies under the new red sandstone? — Yes. 1527. That is the only case in Ireland where it does so ? — It is. 1528. In other cases the theory is that later denudation has removed it? — Yes, that what is visible has been rendered so by denudation. At the carboniferous period no doubt three-quarters of the whole area of Ireland was covered with coal beds. 1529. And, therefore, all the part of your map, coloui'ed blue, you may dismiss as being possible to bear coal ? — There can be no coal there over the area coloured blue ; the limestone lies below the coal formation. 1530. Now you were speaking of the Arigna Mines ; have you been there ? — I have ; I know them. 1531. You know they have facility of water communication ? — Yes, I do. 1532. And also they have the advantage of being no great distance from the railway ? — No ; a new tram line is now being projected tliere. 1533. You spoke of coal paying, if you sold it at 7«. to 8 5. per ton at the pit's mouth in Tyrone : do you know what the price at Arigna is? — lean- not say ; but it is very likely that it might be more than that, because it has to be brought down from the mountain by a very difficult road. 1534. You were asked with regard to the last report upon these mines, and you said Mr. Du Noyer made the last report, and thai, as far as you knew, there had been no exploration made, of any great importance, since 1832 ? — Except that of the Geological Survey. 1535. Do you know anything of Mr. Redwin ? —I do. 1536. Do you know anything about his explo- ration ? — I had a good deal to do with M r. Red- win, and I think that if he and his friends had had the capital, a good industry might have been opened up in that neighbourhood ; he is a man of great industry, knowledge, and activity, not- withstanding his age, and he was prepared, I have no doubt, to open a very fine industry there, but it failed for want of capital. 1537. Do you know how long he was working ? — He was in the neighbourhood a couple of years, I believe, but not working all that time. 1538. Did you ever hear of a strike in conse- quence SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 81 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. \_Curitinued. Colonel King-Harman — continued, quencc of his works ? — I did not know of any strike in xMr. Redwin's time. 1539. Do you know that Mr. Redwin's first intention was to get the ore from the river where it could be easily worked ? — 1 daresay that was his plan. 1540. Do you know anything of the closing of the Arigna works in 1832 ? — There have been so many accounts of it that what I could say ■would, of course, be mere hearsay. I have heard that a good deal of the difficulty was due to the conduct of the workmen theaiselves. 1541. Do you know why any of the overseers or managers ceased to oversee or manage?— Of course when you ask the question whether I know that, I do not know anything personally about the matter ; but I believe there were very great difficulties in dealing with the workmen. 1542. Do you know that the manager was shot ? — I believe I have heard that, but I do not know it as a fact. Chairman. 1543. Was he an Irishman or an Englishman ? The first manager was an Englishman ; I knew him very well ; he was the late Mr. John Wood- house of Derby. I recollect his describing to me the extraordinary condilion of the country at the time he was over there, and he was very glad to get out of it ; but into whose hands it fell after that I do not know. Colonel King-Harman. 1544. You have seen the buildings, have you not? — Yes, I have seen the buildings. 1545. Were they of a very fine character? — I do not suppose they would be considered so now, because buildings for iron smelting have been very much improved since that time. 1546. Have you ever seen samples of the smelting of the iron ore ? — I do not know that I have. 1547. You did not see a large sample in a pot, that was shown as a sample of their production? — I visited the place about 15 years ago, and have not refreshed my memory since, so I cannot say exactly whether I saw that specimen or not. 1548. I understood you to say that in your map of that part of the country that which is coloured blackish, and which I took for the coal formation, does not necessarily imply that it is a coal formation ? — That is really a dark green colour ; it is intended to be so. 1549. The part from Boyle 1o Ballaghaderreen, you do not include as coal ? — No. 1550. Speaking of iron, have you ever seen any iron from County Longford ? — Yes; I have seen some ore worked in County Longford, but I have only seen it as ore ; 1 have not seen them working it. 1551. Have you ever seen any worked by Dr. Ritchie, a remarkably rich ore ? — Yes ; the siliceous hematite ; that was about a dozen years ago._ 1552. It was a rich ore, was it not? — It was a rich ore, but rather siliceous, containing a good deal of silica. 1553. It was worked for a good time, was it not ? — Yes, it was. 0.98. Colonel King-Harman — continued. 1554. I suppose he gave it up, because it did not pay ? — It did not pay. 1555. Did you ever analyse any iron ore from the Curlew Mines ? — No ; I did not know that there was any in the Curlew Mountains. 1556. Why do you consider that turf could not be used for smelting this iron ? —For smelting purposes you require a very solid form of fuel; and, unless it were a very highly compressed form of peat, it would not be of any use. 1557. Is not peat used in Sweden for smelting iron ? — It may be so ; I do not know that it is. 1558. Is there any iron in the Kilkenny coal fields? — There is a little of the clay ironstone there, but not sufficient to make it of any import- ance, I think. 1559. Not enough to make it pay ? — No. 1560. You did not go into the question of china clay, I think ? — No, I have not done so, because there is only one china-clay works I am acquainted with in Ireland, and I thought pro- bably some one acquainted with that industry at Belleck would be examined by the Committee ; therefore, I would rather not say anything about it. 1561. Are you not aware of any other china- clay works in the country ? — No. I am not ; but I am not prepared to say that in the granite in some parts of Ireland, the same material which is used in Staffordshire for china clay could not be found, 1562. That is up Connemara way, is it not? — Either there or in the district of the Mourne Mountains, and in Leinster. In Staffordshire they use the decomposed granite from Cornwall, and blocks of chert, a siliceous material obtained from the limestone of Derbyshire ; and flints. Now, all those materials are in Ireland, therefore I do not see why the cliina-clay industry might not be established in Ii'eland as well as in Staffordshire, except for the coal. 1563. Do you know the Belieek Works? — Yes, I do. 1564. Can you give some expression of opinion as to the way in which articles are turned out there ; whether they could compete in artistic merit with Staffordshire, for instance ? — I think the articles turned out at Belieek have very great artistic merit. 1565. Without the establishment having had much time to develope them ? — I think they have been established about 15 or 16 years. 1566. I think you were asked about lead in the County Dublin ; is there any lead being worked in the County Dublin now ? — There was I am sure, and there is some being worked in the mountains above Glendalough, in the County Wicklow, adjoining the County Dublin. 1567. Is it not the fact that Wicklow is the only county where lead and copper are at the present time being worked ? — There may be a little lead worked at a mine near Limerick Junction, and some ores in County Cork. 1568. You were asked about slate, and of course you mentioned that the Valencia slates did not go up to Dublin to compete with the Welsh slates ? — I do not think they do. 1569. If there were proper harbours upon the L west 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 18 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. \_Conlinued, Colonel King-Harman — continued. west, coast, do not you think that the Valencia slates would be supplied along the west coast, if facilities were afforded for small vessels to ship them ? — The question of harbours is one tliat 1 do not pretend to be able to speak upon at all ; whether Valencia itself has not a sufficient har- bour for the purpose, 1 caunot say, I believe it has. 1570. That is a harbour for loading vessels, but I am speaking of sending vessels along the west coast laden with slates, instead of sending them to Dublin by way of Athenry or Galway ? — There is no doubt that if any Irish slate has to go to Dublin from the west, it is far cheaper to bring it by sea than by land. Within the last few days some gentlemen from the Boai-d of Works and myself have been in consultation upon the subject of the best stone for building the new Museum of Science and Art at Dublin, and we recommended a stone from the County Donegal; but we had not the least idea that it could be brought by land from Mount Charles, but only by vessels, because owing to the rate charged upon such material there was no pos- sibility of sending it by railway. 1571. I believe that Galway granite is very good ? — There is very good granite in Galway, but it is better in Donegal, I think. 1572. Is there any porphyry in any part of Ireland ? — There is abundance of porphyry, and most beautiful porphyry too. 1673. How is it that that is not worked? —I do not know. Lambay Island contains very handsome porphyry, the nearest approach to the verde antique of Italy. The late Lord Talbot de JVlalahide was aware of it, and was very anxious to get it into use, but it has never been worked except as an amateur experiment. 1574. And with regard to mai-bles ; you only spoke of the white and black marbles as existing in a very few places, but are you aware that in Roscommon and Sligo there aie very fine white and black marbles for buildings and fancy statuary ; take the Curlew mountains ? — There is porphyry there and there is the red prophyry in the Curlew mountains, and I have no doubt there may be black and grey marbles, but I do not think there are any white. \b1^. I should have said "grey" instead of " white " ; now have not the Galway marbles been used in London lately in building ? — I am not aware of that, but I would not be at all surprised. 1576. You spoke of the marble for mantel- pieces being brought from abroad; were not Irish mantel-pieces very celebrated in the last century and fetched great prices? — Italian mantel-pieces were, and many of the most beau- tiful mantel-pieces in the old houses in Dublin were of Italian marbles, cut and dressed by Italian workmen. 1577. They might have been cut and dressed by Italian workmen, but were not they prin- cipally Irish marbles?— No, I think they were principally Italian marbles; those that I refer to. 1578. You spoke of the railway rates being very prejudicial to the development of Irish manufactures, and I quite agree with you ; but with regard to the carrying of limestone, do you think that any reduction in the railway rates would make people arry limestone from one Colonel King-Harman — continued, limestone county to another ? — No ; the fact is that the canal carriage is better for them than any railway could be; it is just the proper carriage for a material of that kind for which there is no great hurry. 1579. Do either the lloyal or the Grand Canals carry any limestone to Dublin? — The Grand Canal carries a great deal from the County Carlow to the south side of Dublin. Chairmaan, 15S0. They carry some hay, do they not? — They carry some hay, but I cannot say that they carry a great deal. There is no pn-duct in Ire- land so shamefully wasted as hay ; enormous quantities are annually lost from being stacked in places liable to floods, and a great deal is lost owing to being left out so long in the fields that it becomes blackened and deteriorated. Sometimes in Dublin hay is at famine price, whereas at the same time in other parts of the country they cannot get a sale for it. 1581. Did you ever know thit the Dublin Omnibus Company got hay from Holland when hay was selling in the west of Ireland at 1 Z. a ton ? — I am not aware of that. 1582. With regard to Coal Island pottery, what class of pottery was that? — It was the same class as the Staffordshire, bricks, tiles, chimney pots, vases, and things of that sort ; they were of a very superior class and well designed. 1583. Were they well made; would they stand the weather ? — I have no doubt they would. Mr. Ewart. 1584. And sanitary pipes ? — Yes, those that I refer to were all of the white and yellow clay. Colonel Kinr and need, those industries will go on and increase ; that natural causes will combine to make them suc- cessful ? — Yes. There is another reason I should have mentioned, and that is that from the nature of the case, the Cumberland hasraatite ore, which is mined in Cumberland and Lancashire, must of necessity give out sooner or later ; I am not prejiared to say when ; in fact, nobody can tell when, because it occurs in such an extraordinary manner, in caverns and pockets ; but it must some day give out, and I look to the day when the Antrim ore must be brought in to supple- ment the decreasing quantity of the Ulverstone ore, as it is generally called in Lancashire and Cumberland. 1751. Then anything extraneous which could be brought in to bear upon these various indus- tries, brickmaking, marble quarrying, iron and coal mining, resolves itself, in your mind, into better facilities for transit? — That is an impor- tant element. 1752. Could the Legislature do anything ? — The Legii^lature could take over the Irish rail- ways into tlie hands of the Government, but that is a subject which has been discussed and not hitherto with success. 1753. Would you recommend it? — Upon the ground of increasing the industries of Ireland, I would recommend it. 1754. As a matter of economy in tran.sit would you recommend it? — Yes. 1 am satisfied that the rates tliat would be arranged under a central Board, such as would be appointed by the Go- vernment of the country, would on the whole be more favourable to commerce and traffic than those at present in existence. Mr. Leake — continued. 1755. If you could suppose that the union of the railways by the Government taking them over were not to increase the economy of the transit, you would not recommend it ? — .No. 1756. Otherwise it would be a subvention of the industries to convey their goods at less than cost price ? — It would, if they were to carry the goods at less than cost price. 1757. But on the whole you would recommend that as an experiment, well deserving of trial, that the Government should, in Ireland, with a limited system like that, take over the great arterial lines? — That is a means by which I think the difficulties and obstructions might be over- come. 1758. Of course you know of the arguments against State managemeut, which are very great in many things ? — Yes. Chairman. 1759. In your opinion would that be the only way of perfecting a system now incomplete ? — You cannot compel directors to alter their rates, except as far as the general clauses in Railway Bills bind them. Perhaps they may in time come to see that it is to the advantage of the shareholders (the primary object that they have in view being the advantage of the shareholders) to encourage these industries, even by com- mencing to carry those things at cost price for the infant industry ; and that then, when it has become established and flourishing, they could come to fresh terms. 1760. Are there not also many gaps in the railway communication of Ireland which require at the present moment to be filled up ? — There is certainly room for an extension of the railway system. 1761. There is almost necessity, is there not, for an extension of railways ? — In certain dis- tricts there is a very decided want, such as in the district of the Castlecomer coalfield, and others that I could refer to. Mr. Leake. 1762. That which would be the cost price at the initiation of an industry, I presume you would consider might be a profitable price when it was established? — I think so. Mr. Justin M' Carthy. 1763. Is there not a good deal of very orna- mental and very useful white stone in the south of Ireland, especially such as the Cork Court- house is built of? — There are excellent building stones in the south of Ireland, in Cork and Kerry, and I have never ceased regretting that when Lord Kenmare was building his magnificent mansion, on the banks of the Lake of Killarney, he should have gone to foreign districts for the materials, because close by there is a very hand- some freestone to be had, near Muckross. But I really do not know the stone of which the Cork Courthouse is built ; it may be, perhaps, from the old red sandstone formation, which is very extensively developed in the south of Ire- land. 1764. There is a tribute paid to the stone of which the Cork Courthouse is built, in Macaulay's " History," I find, but you do not know what that stone is ?— I do not know. 1765. Now, SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 91 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d,, f.k.s. [ Continued. Mr. Justin 7)/* CarfAy— continued. 765. Now, with regard to the marbles; you said the Irish marbles are not of much use for statuary; is that so? — That is so; they are not of the right character for statuary ; that is to say, for white statuary. 1766. Do you mean to say the Irish marble is not hard enough, or is it merely a question of colour ? — There are two or three places where white niarble is to be found, but it is not of sufficient purity, nor could it be obtained, I think, in sufficiently large blocks for the purpose of statuary. 1767. But having the white marbles, is it not the fact that coloured marble is very much used for statuary all over the world ? — I hardly think so ] 768. With regard to decorative objects, where the statue itself is not so much the object as the forming of a group, is not coloured marble very much used ? — Not for statuary purposes, but it is for decorative purposes. 1769. For statues in decoration? — No doubt, that is so. 1770. Is it not the fact that the Greeks con- stantly used coloured marbles? — They used to colour their white marble statues. 1771. And also that they used coloured mar- bles ? — I think the Greeks were so fond of their own Parian marbles that they did not use much else. In Egypt you may find various stones, even basalt, used for statuary purposes. 177'2. Can you fail to see almost everywhere abroad, how constantly coloured marble is used for statuary in decoration ? — Coloured building stone is often cut into designs ; statuettes, and so on ; but I cannot admit that for statuary purposes in the artistic sense of the word, anything but white marble is allowable. 1773. Is not the fact, as Mr. Leake observed, that coloured marbles are returning very much to their old place in decorative architecture ? — They are. 1774. Is there much of that porphyry in Ire- land ? — There are various kinds of porphyry in different parts of Ireland, and beautiful granites; red and porphyritic granite, and so on. 1775. Is that exported much? — It is exported a little from the works of Messrs. Richardson and Company. I have been all over their works ■which are of the very highest class; they send pillars, tombstones, and so on, to America. 1776. You told the Committee about the diffi- culty of removing of the marble from the quarry to the sea, but is it not the fact that some very famous marble quari-iea are distant from the sea, and that the marble has to be carried over a very rough country for a long distance ? — I have seen them bringing blocks of marble from Carrara to the sea, over very rough ground, in a very rude manner, by means of bullocks. 1777. And also in I'entelicus ? — I have not been there, but probably that is the case. 1778. So that really there is no insuperable difficulty in conveying the marble from any- where ? — Where there is a determination to carry out an industry, the difficulties can be got orer. 1779. The Irish marble beincr for the most o part, as you say, very good, there seems to be no reason why you shwiW not in the end get 0.98. Mr. Justin M'Carthy — continued. over the difficulties of bringing the marble into general use ? — Messrs. Richardson have gone to Donegal, to Barnesmore, for the purpose of get- ting red granite, and they have carried large blocks from there round to Newry. 1780. Do you know that Dr. Sullivan told us that one of the difficulties in the developing of Irish Art was, that there was no artistic skill in Ireland for turning it to account? — I think there is a great opening for sculpture in its various branches being taught in the future technical schools; I cannot say that there is much done at present ; it is one of the arts which ought to be taught and developed.. 1781. You think the schools have not done anything at present to develope industry? — I think they have not. Mr. Leake. 1782. My honourable friend asked you whether it was not the fact that Ciirrara marble and the marble of Peutelicus were carried by labourious means over a long distance ; is it not the fact that the Carrara marbles fetch a very long price in the market for a very small quan- tity ; far different from what would be realised by any decorative marbles you could expect to get from Ireland?— -Yes ; there is the yellow Sienna marble, which we have not in Ireland at all; that is, I think, the most costly of all. 1783. But the Carrara marble will pay for transjjort ? — It will. Chairman. 1784. The Carrara marble is very near a rail- way ; is it not the fact that there is a short railway right up to the foot of the mountain ? — No doubt. Mr. Molloy. 1785. Dr. Sullivan in speaking of the Irish marbles, told us of the hardness of the Irish marbles, and the consequent extra cost and diffi- culty of working them ; would there not be the same difficulty with the Sienna marble you have just spoken of? — I do not suppose that there is any essential difference between the hardness of the marbles of Ireland and of any other country. 1786. But the Sienna marble is peculiarly hard, is it not? — Being a limestone, that would be a soft marble. 1787. It is very hard to work, is it not? — I have never experimentalised upon it; there are some of the brecciated marbles of Italy which are very hard to work, because they contain some \ ery hard pebbles in them. Dr. Lyons. 1788. You have handed in a very valuable report indeed upon the estimated quantity of workable coal, showing a total of 209,000,000 tons, and you have given in a very instructive manner the distribution of it in Ireland. May I ask jou if you could, being the best authority probably upon the subject in Ireland, furnish the Com- mittee with a tolerably complete and exhaustive return of the minerals, other than those subser- vient to fuel, which exist in Ireland, and are capable of being utilised for the purpose of advancing the industries of the country. At M 2 p&g& 92 MINUTES OF EVIDEKCE TAKEN BEFOBE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.k.s. [ Continued. Dr. Lyons — contimiecl. page 1 25 of the " Summaries of the Keports of the Inspectors of Mines to Her Majesty's Secre- tary of State, and Mineral Statistics of the United Kingdom, for the year 1883," there is given a list which is obviously a defective one ? — I have not seen that list. 1789. But you could probably, on reference, make it thoroughly complete ; it includes alum clay (bairxite), barytes, clays (brick marl and fire-clay), coal, copper ore, copper precipitate, iron ore, iron pyrites, lead ore, ochre (bog-iron, ore and ochre), salt (rock salt and white salt), slate and slate slabs, zinc ore (bluestone). Now it is obvious at once that marbles are omitted from that list ; it is also obvious that building stones are omitted from it ; it is also obvious that certain forms of galenite and other ores contain- ing lead in various forms are omitted. It appears to me that it would be extremely valuable if you could furnish this Committee, after your return to Ireland, upon reference to geological maps and data, with a complete and exhaustive report of all the minerals which you know from your position in Ireland to be capable of being sub- servient to the proper prosecution of your in- dustries of one kind and another? — You would, of course, restrict me to those which I think are capable of being developed ? 1790. To those which you think are capable of being utilised ? — Because if I were to go into the matter in a very exhaustive manner, noting every mine that has ever been opened in Ireland, it would be a veiy long and difficult operation, but I should be glad to do my best to draw up a list which would be useful. But there is one product in the list which has not been men- tioned by me, and which I should be glad to be examined upon, and that is the question of rock- salt. 1791. At the proper stage I hope to be able to give you an opportunity of making a state- ment upon that product. Now to revert for a short time to the question of coal ; coal is our chief means of supplying fuel at present, and 1 regard your evidence as dealing with it as a question of fuel. I would like to at^k you what other sources of fuel we possess in Ireland in your judgment, and what the probable estimate of the amount would be ? — Peat, of course, we have in abundance; we can scarcely say the same of timber or wood. 1792. Could you supply the Committee now, or could you supply us afterwards, with a state- ment as to the available amount of the peat for the purpose of fuel ? — I could have no difficulty in that providing I had time, because all the peat bogs in Ireland have been laid down upon the maps of the Geological Survey, and it would be simply taking them from those maps. 1793. Are you well acquainted with the bog reports of 1809 to 1811 and 1812?— I have seen those reports, but I cannot say I have studied them much. 1794. Has the Geological Department recently turned its attention to any estimate of the amount of turf existing in Ireland at present ? — There is no estimate upon the subject. 1795. Not even a rough estimate as to the possible amount you could supply? — We know that in some districts peat is being worked, and Dr. Lyons — continued, in such cases it is generally noted in the little Explanatory Memoirs that we issue with the maps. 1796. Could you refer the Committee to any special authority who, in addition to yourself, would be capable of giving the Committee ex- haustive evidence upon the subject of peat bogs ? — I think my colleague, Mr. Kinahan, would be able to do so. 1797. I think you also mentioned, upon a former occasion, in reply to me, that you thought Professor Sullivan would be competent to "ive evidence upon the subject ? — I do not know to what extent he is acquainted with the areas of the peat bogs, but no doubt no one is better cal- culated to give evidence upon the question of the process of converting the raw material of peat into fuel, whether compressed or otherwise : no one could do that better. 1798. That is to say as to the most economical way of utilising peat in Ireland for the purpose of fuel ? — Yes, certainly ; I have no doubt he could speak to that. 1799. It is the fact, that while we have an almost inexhaustible supply of iron ore in Ireland, we have very little fuel wherewith to smelt it ; is that not so? — That is the general view of the case. 1800. Though you estimate the coal at 209,000,000 tons, that is a comparatively small amount for working the total amount of iron which you have shown to be available in the country ? — A very large portion of that coal is at such a distance from the seat of the iron ore, that it would not be available for the purpose. Of course I only referred to those coalfields which are in proximity to the ironfields. 1801. What I am aiming at is this, tliat, even supposing the total amount of 209,000,000 tons of coal were available for the purpose, it would be a totally inadequate amount to smelt the very large quantity of iron which you have shown us in your evidence is available in Ireland ? — Yes ; because, in the first place, I have no doubt that the requirements of coal for machinery and other purposes would leave a very small margin for iron smelting ; so that it would be necessary to supplement the sujjply of coal by other means. 1802. You put your supply of iron at some- thing like, I think, 185,000,000 tons?— Of the Antrim iron ore alone 185,600,000 tons is the available net quantity ; say, 185,000,000 tons in round numbers. 1803. You only show us in the total 209,000,000 tons of coal ? — That is so ; therefore, in order to smelt that quantity of iron, as well as to supply the demand for other purposes, you would require a very much larger amount of coal than there is in existence in Ireland. 1804. The quantity of coal, then, is totally in- adequate to smelt the iron ore alone ? — Yes ; unless it were only used for that purpose, which, of course, is an utter impossibility. But, making allowance for its use for other purposes, it is entirely inadequate. 1805. Even supposing it were solely applied to smelting iron, which you estimate at 185,000,000 tons in one district alone, would the 209,000,000 tons of coal be capable of smelting that iron ; a ton for a ton clearly would not be enough ? — No, it 8KLECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (lEELAND). 93 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.k.s. [ Continued. Dr. Lyons — continued. it would not, because, in addition to that quantity of iron ore which I have given as the ore in county Antrim, there are the iron ores of Lough Allan. 1806. But, practically, all the coal available in Ireland would not be sufficient to smelt the quantity of iron which is available in Ireland ? — It would not. 1807. Then, is it not necessary in some way to supplement the amount of coal which exists in Ireland, if we desire to see the industries of Ire- land carried out to their fullest extent? — Certainly it would. 1808. I want to know if it would not be possible in any way to utilise a considerable amount of the turf, which is very abundant in Ireland, for smelt- ing purposes also ? — That is a technical question. I am not aware of any district where turf is used for smelting purposes at the present day. Of course, if charcoal can be used for smelting pur- poses, turf can be, but I am not personally aware that it is. 1809. I observe you stated that you were not aware that it was used in certain parts of the north of Europe ? — I thought the Swedish iron was all smelted by charcoal, or by coal imported. 1810. But the question is with regard to the turf which we have in Ireland, and I want to know how far that could be made to supplement the deficient supply of the coal? — I have no doubt that if an artificial fuel were prepared by compression, and put into a sufficient condition of solidity, it could be used for iron smelting. 1811. Then you refer the Committee to Mr. Kinahan and Professor Sullivan, with re- gard to the economy of working the turf in that direction ; do I understand that ? — I have no doubt that they would be able to give valuable information upon that point. Chairman. 1812. Is it not the fact that turf mixed with coke is used in Austria, for the purpose of smelt- ing ? — In Germany they use a fuel which is prepared from anthracite coal dust. 1813. And then mixed with turf? — I am not aware of that ; it may be so. Dr. Lyons. 1814. Supposing a certain amount of addi- tional fuel were derived from turf, is there any other source known to you from which fuel could be derived in Ii-eland ? — Yes, from timber. 1815. What amount of land in Ireland, in your view, would be available to apply to the pui-posc of growing timber, either for general industries or for the special purposes of fuel, as adding to the deficiency which you admit there is of coal ? • — I have made an estimate of the number of acres, which of course is only a rough estimate, but it is probably below rather than above the actual area. The total area that I get out is about 3,500,000 English acres, divided in this way ; county Donegal I put down at 500,000 acres of land specially suitable for plantation. Captain Aylmer. 1816. What description of land have you taken as suitable for plantation? — Principally moun- 0.98. [Captain Aylmer — continued, tain land, and those lands incapable of being turned to other profitable cultivation. Donegal, as I say, I put down at .'i00,000 acres ; London- derry, at 100,000 acres; Mayo, at 360,000; West Galway, nt 700,000, including Comemara; the Dingle promontory, 80,000; Kerry, 600,000; Cork, 400,000 ; Wicklow and Wexford, and the mountainous district generally, 300,000 ; Down- shire, 100,000; the central districts, principally those in turf, 400,000 ; making in all 3,540,000 acres. Dr. Lyons. 1817. I suppose you have not gone into the question of how per acre you might convert timber into charcoal ; you do not know the modulus of calculation for that ? — No, that is a forestry question ; I have not turned my atten- tion to that point. 1818. Are you aware that the smelting of iron w.as carried^out as a very extensive operation, indeed, for some centuries in Ireland ? — Yes, I have a very valuable paper upon that .subject by yourself; you were kind enough to give me a copy of it, but I know it as a fact otherwise. 1819. Do you agree with Sir Robert Kane in the statement that, " With the burning down of the last of the Irish forests at the close of the 17th century, the fires for smelting iron were extinguished, and that great branch of industry which had existed for centuries ceased" ? — There were undoubtedly little iron furnaces or smelt- ing works scattered all over the country, in which charcoal was used for the purpose, and necessarily with the cutting down or destruction of the forests that industry ceased. 1820. Do you happen to know about what time that was ; do you agree with the statement I have read that it was at the end of the 17th century? — It was at various times ; a good deal towards the latter end of the last century : and though I do not wish to speak historically upon the subject, I believe a very large quantity wa» cut down by the settlers under Cromwell and others. Mr. Sexton. 1821. So as to leave no cover? — Yes, that was part of the reason, and also to convert the- timber to immediate profit, as they were not very secure in their holdings. Dr. I^yons. 1822. Are you also aware that for strategic purposes roads 100 yards wide were cut through them, and that smelting furnaces were expressly set up ill order to destroy the woods, with a similar view? — I was not aware of that. 182;^. May I ask you whether you happen to know anything with regard to the process of the manufacture of iron wire, now so extensively used in telegraph machinery ? — I have been in works where that wire was manufactured. 1824. Do you happen to know that a very large ])ortion of the supply of the wire comes from the Jura district in France ? — I was not aware of that. 1825. Are you acquainted with the Jura dis- trict? — Yes, I have been through it. M 3 1826. Can 94 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [^Continued. Dr. Lyons — continued. 1826. Can you say whether that wire is manu- factured by the aid of charcoal from timber? — I have not the least doubt about it, though I cannot speak from personal knowledge ; but there is no other fuel in the Jura district. 1827. Do you believe that that is an industry which could be advantageously introduced into Ireland, considering the enormous quantity of iron ore which you have just stated to exist there ? — I have nc doubt about it, with an ex- tensive plantation of the country and the intro- duction of proper forest laws. 1828. Or, should the turf fuel be available for the purpose, you think that might be used? — I think compressed turf fuel might be available for the purpose also. 1829. You are aware, of course, that wire for telegraph purposes has now become an enormous industry? — It has. 1830. Do you happen to know where the tele- graph wires are supplied from in Ireland ? — Not from Ireland, that is certain; but I cannot Bay "where they do come from. 1831. A very large quantity come from the Jura, and get into English hands; but do you think that is an industry which may be held in view as one which might be introduced into Ireland at a comparatively early period? — In the northern parts of Ireland, yes. 1832. The honourable Chairman desires me to aek you whether you could inform the Committee at what age of timber growing, charcoal would be available for the purpose of wire manu- facture? — Charcoal is made from small trees, and probably five or six years after the planting you would be able to procure charcoal. 1833. Certainly within 10 years? — Yes, cer- tainly within 10 years. 1834. Did you happen to visit the Forestry Exhibition in Edinburgh ? — I am sorry to say I did not. 183.5. But you have seen charcoal at ex- hibitions and elsewhere, and you can testify to the fact that it is made from timber of small scantling ? — Yes. 1836. Probably under 10 years of age ? — Yes, I have seen it in several countries. 1837. And by preference the younger timber is chosen for the manufacture of charcoal ? — Yes. 1838. It is not forest trees of 50 or 60 years old that would be used for the purjwse ? — Cer- tainly not. 1839. May I ask you whether you can say if any process of iron manufacture is going on at present in Ireland from the raw material? — No, not that I know of. 1840. None at all?— None at all. 1841. Is there any smelting worth speaking of, in a commercial point of view, going on in Ireland at present ? — No, none at all. 1842. Then all the articles of iron are im- ported into Ireland, as far as you know?— They are either imported directly in a complete manu- factured state, or else the pig-iron is impoited ; there are foundries in which many articles are produced upon the spot. Chairman, % 1843. Is it true that every spade and shovel used by labourers in Ireland is imported? — I think it is very likely to be true. Dr. Lyons. 1844. Are the last shovel mills, which used to exist somewhere in the neighbourhood of Dublin, for the manufacture of those and similar forms ot implements shut up ?— I should be sorry to say that there are none ; but my belief is, that there are none manufactured in Ireland. 1845. Yon stated a while ago that you be- lieved it to be a matter of very considerable im- portance to provide inland carriage and outward carriage, in regard to those numerous industries in the country, if they are to be developed at all. Would you say that the canal system in Ireland would offer a means of competition \ni\\ the rail- ways, as well as a direct means of greatly facili- tating the carriage of these materials through the country inwards and outwards ? — For heavy goods and raw materials, the canal is the most economical ; but the small extent to which canal traffic is carried on at the present day, even with our existing canals, is a lamentable thing. 1846. I do not suppose you concur entirely with Professor Jevons, in his history of the coal question, that we should abandon the hope of producing mineral industries worked by fuel to any reasonable extent? — I presume the late Professor Jevons, whom I had the honour and pleasure of knowing very intimately, was only speaking of manufacture by means of coal fuel; but if you fall back upon other fuels, such as those of peat and timber, you, of course, increase the area of your manufacture. 1847. You are, possibly, the most important witness in the three kingdoms upon the question of fuel, and I would ask you whether you concur in this important statement of Professor Jevons : he says that, " the industrial efforts of the Irish should be exerted in a contrary direction to those of England ; that agriculture and handicraft em- ployments, in which fuel affords no aid, would be their best resource." Would you go as far as that? — I should think, over a very large extent of the country, perhaps the greater part of the country, that would apply. 1848. But still, I gather from your general evidence, and what you stated a wliile ago, that you do not agree with Professor Jevons, that little or nothing is to be done in that way? — No, I do not. L'hairman. 1 849. Would you not substitute for the word " best " the word " first"?— I would. Dr. Lyons, 1850. You would correct it in that way ? — I would. Cattle breeding, and agriculture in its various branches, must necessarily be the prin- cipal and the first means of employment, if you take the whole country ; but, as I have said before, the north of Ireland is exceptionally prolific in minerals ; and in that region I think those minerals are capable of occupying, at any rate, an equal share of attention with agriculture. 1851. You know the English coal fields so thoroughly well that I would like to ask you whether, supposing the total fuel in Ireland to be derived from its coal, its turf, and its coming forests, is not sufficient, means could not be found of introducing through the canal system of Ire- land a sufficient supply of coal to carry on our manufactures, and bring coal in at such a price that it would be possible to carry on manufac- tures ? — SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTKIES (iKELAND). 95 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.e.s. [ Continued. Dr. Lyons — continued. tures ? — I have already expressed the opinion, that as time progresses coal in England must necessiirlly increase in value ; the mines are becoming deeper, and therefore more expensive every year, and the shallow ones are being ex- hausted ; still there is sufficient coal in England and Wales to supply cheap fuel for a great many years to come, but perhaps not more than half a century. In half a century or so, I think, the price of coal will be very materially increased. ] 852. Did you see the Duke of Argyll's state- ment, that the supply of coal would be very materially diminished in 100 years? — 150 years, I think his Grace said. 1853. Your own estimate, as given in the Coal Kepoit, was something like 250 years, I think ? — I am speaking of my original estimate, which was made in 1859 before the Royal Coal Com- mission, and was published in a little work called The Coal Fields of Great Britain (4 th edit., published in 1881). I made an estimate at that time, that there was suHicient coal to the depth of 4,000 feet in Great Britain to last for a thousand years at the then rate of production, ■which, however, was only 60,000,000 tons per annum. Since that time it has doubled, and is increasing in a rapid ratio, and therefore the period of exhaustion, of course, must be propor- tionately diminished. 1854. So is the exportation of coal enormously increasing ? — The exportation of coal is enor- mously increasing, and if I might be allowed to offer an opinion upon the subject, I should say that the exportation of coal is one matter upon which we should not carry out the principles of free tr.ade ; I should put a duty upon the export of coal . 1855. Could you tell to what amount the pre- sent export is ? — I could get that information for the Committee, excluding that exported for our own purposes, but taking that sent to foreign countries, it is at least 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 tons per annum. 1856. You do not think it is impossible to in- troduce coal from England to Ireland, through the great water-way systems, at such prices as to make it possible to carry out the industries of Ireland ? — Not over a very large extent of the country. 1857. Over the central and western portions? — Not over the central and western portions. 1858. Is it not the fact that coal has to be carried over considerable areas in England to the seat of manufacture ? — Yes, in many parts. 1859. Has the coal not to go greater distances to certain parts of England than it would have if it were to go by the shortest route from the coalfields to the west of Ireland ? — I think that is the case in many instances, no doubt ; for in- stance, manufactures which are carried on in London are supplied with coal from the central and northern counties, or by sea from the north- east of England. 1 860. With a tax on the coal coming into the London district? — Yes, there are local charges on the coal. 1861. Then you do not think if beyond reason- able probability that, with better sea carriage and with better inland navigation in Ireland, we may get coal at such a price, even in the remote parts of Ireland, within reach of those water- 0.98. Dr. Lvons — continued, ways, as will enable us to carry on manufactures profitably ? — I do not anticipate that there would be much manufacture carried on with imported coal in the remote parts of Ireland, but along the east and districts proximate to the ports that might be so, and would be so. 1862. At all events, to sum up your opinion, you think that with the fuel derived from the existing coal supply, from the turf supply, and from the very probable timber supply, within a period, say of 10 years, a very large development could be given to the industries of Ireland in working the minerals, iron included, which exist in the country at present? — I will answer the question in this way ; that if the system of popular education in Ireland undergoes a considerable modification, that may be the case ; but if it is allowed to remain in its present state, I do not consider it will be the case. 1863. By that you mean that so long as the education is so little technical, very little pro- gress can take place amongst the people in prose- cuting those industries? — Yes, 1864. You think then, that with a sufficient amount of technical education on the part of the people, and a good supply of fuel, very con- siderable industries could be carried on in Ireland without at all aiming at the great industries of England? — I think, instead of our being en- tirely dependent for a large portion of our useful implements, and other necessities of every-day life, on England, if a proper bent were given, by the introduction of technical education amongst the people, towards art and industry, a new era could be established for industrial works in Ire- land, but not without that. I am satisfied that the present system of education, instead of fos- tering the taste for manual labour of various kinds, has the very opposite effect. Chairman. 1865. You think that without improvement in popular education, we should in vain look for in- dustrial progress ? — Certainly. Mr. Leake. 1866. Does Ireland participate in that same disadvantage with England ? — I thick it does. Mr. Sexton. 1867. Going back for a moment to the opinion of Professor Stanley Jevons, do you think that his statement, that " agriculture and handicraft employments in which fuel affords no aid, would be the best resource of the Irish," offers a suffi- cient foundation for his conclusion that " the industrial efforts of the Irish should be exerted in the contrary direction to those of the English"? — He is speaking of the whole country ; I accept his statement as applied to a portion of the country. 186H. Agriculture may be the best, or, as you would prefer to say, the first resource of the Irish people ; but is it not desirable that any other employment for which suitable resources may be found in Ireland, should be utilised for the purpose of providing work and income for bodies of people, than those which may afford a field to the agriculturist and shopkeeper? — Cer- tainly, most important. 1869. I want to gather from you a little more M 4 definitely 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [^Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. definitely an opinion upon a matter which you casually mentioned on the last day, as to what you described as a shameful waste of hay, which you attributed partly to the stacking of hay in wet places and keeping it too long in the field? — I have seen that frequently the case, both stacking it in places liable to be flooded, and also keeping it too long in the field. 1870. I think you stated that, when hay was abundant in parts of the country, there was sometimes a famine in Dublin ? — There is a great scarcity of hay in Dublin sometimes, and prices are to be had in Dublin which would very largely repay its carriage into Dublin from the country. 1871. How do you account for that strange condition of things ? — Because there are no pro- per appliances for compressing the hay for car- riage over long distances by rail ; at any rate, I do not think there is very much brought in from long distrnces, even by canal ; but 1 know that, in some parts of the interior of the country, there are sometimes magnificent crops of hay which locally connnand a small price, while double or treble the price is obtainable in Dublin, and also in England. In Liverpool, for instance, I have heard the price of hay quoted at a high figure ; I do not like to go into figures, because I am not very conversant with the subject, but say 41. a, ton, when in Londonderry and the neighbour- hood the price would be about 30 s. 1872. Hay is a very large and im])ortant crop in Ireland, is it not? — It is a very large and im- portant crop, but it is very badly utilised. 1873. So far as this bad condition of tilings is due to want of skill, as you say it largely is, that would liave been remedied long ago, I pre- sume, if Dr. Sullivan's suggestion, made years ago, to convert the Glasnevin School into a normal school for training teachers in agriculture, had been carried out ? — It might be to a small extent, but I do not tliink that would have had a very material effect. I think what we want is the training of boys in the national schools. 1874. But how would you train the boys in the national schools, unless the teachers were trained ? — Of course the teachers must be trained first, and you must authorise agriculture and the arts to be taught in national schools, and make them part of the course. 1875. If the teachers had acquired a good agricultural training before now, we should not have the hay stacked in wet places and left to rot in the fields ? — There would ultimately have been an improvement, of course ; but I may mention that so little has the value of training in agriculture been appreciated in Ireland, that the Ohair of Agriculture at the Koyal College of Science in Dublin, which was established at the -time the college took its present form, was abolished within the last four or five years ; Dr. Davey was allowed to retire becaijse he could not get a class. 1876. But do not you know that the Govern- ment suppressed the Chair of Agriculture in the ■Queen's College, Cork, against the wish of the teaching staff there, for the purpose of effecting an economy ? — I know they have made several chairs into one. 1877. One of the amalgamated chairs was the Mr. Sexton — continued. Chair of Agriculture, so you can draw no argu- ment from the absence of a class in Dublin ? — I draw the inference that the appreciation of the benefit of agricultural knowledge has been at a discount ; but I think there has been an improve- ment in that respect of late. 1878. But any reason that would be derived from such a fact in an important college in a great city would not be applicable to the ([uestion of priniar)' education by trained teachers in the national schools of the country ? — No, I would not so apply it. 1879. It would be remarkable if it were true, that hay was being brought from Holland to Dublin, while good hay was being sold in Con- naught at 1 1. a ton ? — Certainly it would. 1 880. Do you blame the railways for that con- dition of things ? — Yes ; perhaps they are some- what to blame ; but hay, in order to be sent by rail, requires to be properly |)repared by pressing and making into parcels, and until that is taught and carried out it cannot be sent long distances by rail. 1881. Even having regard to the present con- dition of the stale of skill in reference to the preparation of hay, do you consider the railway rates an impediment ? — I cannot speak upon that point. I think it would fall in with the general statement I have made, that there is probably not sufficient encouragement given by low rail- way rates for the transmission of hay. 1882. Witli reference to the railways; we gather from you that the rates upon the railways are generally an impediment in the way of in- dustry in stone ? — Yes, I have very little doubt that that is the case. 1883. You told the Committee a remarkable story of the failure of the pottery works at Coal- island, where they produced as good pottery as you said you had ever seen in Staffordshire ? — Yes, I never saw better. 1884. But because the manufacturer could not get his goods carried from Coalisland to London- derry, the works fell through ? — Yes ; I was told the other day that the works were broken up. 1885. Did one company control the land carriage ? — One in the main, and that was the North Western ; but I am not quite sure if there was not a branch in connection with it. 1886. Then again the manufacturer of bricks at Kingscourt, in Cavan, almost came to ruin from the same cause, did he not ? — Yes, he did ; that case has been settled, I understand. 1887. After a number of years ? — After a number of years. 1888. Kingscourt has a railway station, has it not? — Yes; it is the termination of the Navan and Kingscourt Railway* 1889. It is directly connected with Dublin? — Yes ; it is directly connected with Dublin, by Drogheda. 1890. The opposition of that company for years jeopardised that manufacture? — Yes, as I have been informed, by their refusal to give remune- rative rates of carriage. 1891. Considering the manner in which the policy of the railway boards is operating against various industries in different parts of Ireland, do you think the Legislature might usefully establish, in regard to certain products and industries, a table of rates suited to the requirements of public policy ? SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 97 21 Matj 1885.] Profef:!or Hull, ll.d., f.r s. \_Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. policy ? — Well, that is rather a difScuIt question to answer ; I think no doubt it miglit be possible that rates could be reduced aud yet made profit- able to the companies all over. 1892. Do you consider, from your inspection of the question, that these railway boards in Ireland are too exacting for immediate dividend, that they are not willing to wait intelligently for results? — I have no doubt that the production of higii dividends is the first object they have in view. 1893. Tliat is to say, high dividends at once ? -^Yes, high dividends at once. 1S9-1. Now, supposing the railways were to be amalgamated, you would have unity of control, unity of management, and uniformity of rating ; you would have an intelligent management of the lines forming j)art of the same system ; and you would have a reduction in the pay of the higher grades, and a less number of officials ? — 1 do not know about that, it dei)ends upon whether they are at present too highly paid. 1895. If instead of 36 managing boartis you had one, you would not want 36 secretaries ? — Not so many. 1896. Would you think that the administra- tion of Irish railways, conducted by native ad- ministration in Dublin, with State authority, would be the most hopeful that could be adopted ? — Upon the whole I am disposed to think that, as applied to Ireland, it would be an advantageous arrangement. I do not think it would be required in England or Scotland, because rail- way companies and directors are sufficiently alive to the benefits of encouraging industries there at low rates ; in fact, some industries are very largely encouraged, such as the coal traffic, the railway rate upon coal to London being the very lowest figure possible. 1897. They do, by experience, and by the intelligent application of results in England, what we do not in Ireland? — I will not give them credit for that altogether ; it is partly due to the enormous competition which exists. 1898. If we had a central administration in Dublin, with Irish intelligence directing it, backed by a sympathy with the wants of the people, and a knowledge of Ireland's resources ; do you think we might have good results ? — I think we might have good results. 1899. You have not been asked about salt; what do you say with respect to that? — I think there is a good deal of salt in Ireland ; there is a bed of rock salt only in one place, at Cari-ick- fergus, but that bed, which is 88 feet in thick- ness, 1 liave no doubt extends under a considerable tract of country. There are three beds of salt which have been ))roved in that mine (it is called the Duncreagh Mine, near Carrickfergus), the second of which is 88 feet in thickness, that is being worked at 572 feet from the surface. There is no reason to doubt that that bed extends under the basaltic plateau of the county Antrim, east and west, to a very considerable extent. 1900. Is there any any other mineral beside the rock salt there? — There is a little gypsum worked near Carrickmacross, but there is not much gypsum. 1901. Is there any market for rock salt in Ire- land? — Yes; I have the returns from this mine 0,98. Mr. Sexton — continued. for the years from 1879 down to the year 1883 inclusive, and they are very encouraging. In the year 1879 the output was 30,234 tons; in 1680, the output was 31,298 tons ; in 1881 it was 31,730 tons; in 1882 there is a falling off, the output was 29,778 tons ; but in 1883 it rose to 37,405 tons. 1902. Is that all sold in Ireland?— No, a good deal of it is shipped at Carrickfergus. 1903. There is a good market for it in Ire- land, is there not ?— Yes, there is a good market for it in Ireland ; there is no doubt a market for it, fjr chemical works and other purposes ; but I think it is an industry which might be very largely increased. 1904. Is there common salt in Ireland? — It is from the rock salt that the common salt is made. Mr. Leake. 1905. Is there brine in those pits?— I do not think there is. Mr. Sexton. 1906. Is there any other industry that you think possible, or existing, which you have not men- tioned, and wiiich you think you might usefully refer to? — Of course there are the indu.stries derived from land, flax, and so on ; but I do not think those come exactly within my province. 19it7. I referred rather to any which had not been mentioned ? — No, no others occur to me than those that have been mentioned ; but you can never tell when you have quite exhausted the list ; one industry gives luse to another. 1908. How would you propose to develop the porphyry of Lambay ? — By shii)ping and quarry- ing. 1909. A good art school in Dublin would develop it? — A technical school, I presume you mean. 1910. I mean a school that would develop with artistic taste? — But we have art schools under the Science and Art Department, which are doing very good work. 1911. But the system might be more popu- larised, might it not ? — I would have industries taught in every school in the country, and in the towns ; those in the country especially directed towards agricultural pursuits. I should have a plot of land attache! to every countrj- school where it is possible, and the boys when they came to a certain age, the older boys in their third school year, obliged to work upon this land and till it ; and I should give the same encourage- ment to success in the tillage of the land, and in answering on agricultural matters, as I would give to success in any of the subjects of head knowledge. Then for the girls, I think it is equally important that they should be trained in household duties to a far greater extent than they are at present ; in needlework, in knitting, in dairy work, and in cookery. That is my pro- gramme for the country schools. 1912. Let me remind you of the outlines of Dr. Sullivan's scheme ? — Mine are very much the same, but I had thought out the subject before I heard Dr. Sullivan's views; we quite hold the same views. 1913. Ur. Sullivan wants the elements of the arts and science classes taught in all schools ; N national 98 MINUTES OJ' EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., p.r.s. \_Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. national schools built in towns, with workshops attached, attended by trained teachers ; and in the country groups of schools to which a farm should be attac: ed ? — I think there should be groups of schools in which the elder boys should be taught trades as they are in industrial schools. iyi4. That is to say, when you have a visiting teacher to visit the grouj)S of country schools, he might teach industrial arts? — Yes; when you have boys remarkable for talent, I would make a selection of them for special instruction, but as regards the great body who attend those schools I would certainly oblige them to be instructed in trades for a time. 1915. Then what the workshop attached would do for industry in towns, the farm attached would do for agriculture in the country ? —Yes. 1916. You would assent, as he proposes, to the giving of a technical education in the pro- vincial school topped by the Queen's College and the College of Science 1 — It would have to be done on a great system. 1917. There is some difference of testimony between Dr. Sullivan and yourself, as to the capacities of Ireland in reference to ironstone. I tidvc it Professor Sullivan's great point is chemistry, whereas you have given your special attention to the subject of minerals ? — Professor Sullivan has a very wide knowledge on most subjects, and amongst others he is a very good mineralogist. As to the process of the manu- facture of minerals, there is no authority superior to him ; but I think from my official position I must have a greater knowledge of the actual existence of those minerals in Ireland than he has. 1918. Your official duties give you that know- ledge? — Yes, my official duties give me that knowledge. 1919. Do you consider that there is a promis- ing future for the ironstone in the Antrim districts ? — I do. 1920. As far as coal is concerned you do not look hopefully to either Munster or Antrim, but you think that the Castlecomer field might be suitably developed, and that there is room for a great industry in Tyrone? — Yes, the Castle- comer and Tyrone districts are the two which have the greatest future before tliem in respect to coal. 1921. Examining, as we have examined, the causes why this industry has not developed, you enable us to arrive at one which appears to have had a general operation. I refer to the want of skill and the bad system of mining ? — Yes ; the art of mining is not sufficiently understood. 1922. You suggested that managers might be brought in from Great Britain ? — Yes. 1923. Does not it occur to yon that persons engaged in a lucrative industry in Great Britain ■would be slow to embark in what might prove to be a precarioufi operation in Ireland ? — Of course it does not follow that we cannot produce good managers with the requisite knowledge in Ireland by proper training, but at first you would require to introduce men who had the knowledge, in order to train others. 1924. Have you anybody at the College of Science competent to teach mining ? — Yes, we have a Professor of Mining, Professor O'Keilly. Mr. Sexton — continued. 1925. Suppose boys at the primary science classes showed an aptitude for mining, and were brought up into the College of Science, which exists in Dublin, and enabled to avail themselves of the skill and knowledge of Professor O'Reilly, would you not be able in a few yt- ars to produce a class of young men who would be competent to conduct mining operations skilfully in Ireland? — No doubt we should ; at the same time we have not in the neighbourhood of Dublin any actual pits or collieries at work, that is the great diffi- culty, because in order to learn the practical working of a colliery they would huve to visit a colliery district. 1926. Supposing the Professor took the students for a week's visit to a colliery, that would met the difficulty ? — In that way it might be accom- plished ; we have excellent models and plans, and everything except the actual workiui^ col- leries. 1927. You have an excellent collection, but I believe your Technological Museum has been rather mutilated? — It has; we are partly in a transition condition, waiting for the new build- ings of the Science and Art Museum to be finished, for part of our collection to be trans- ferred there. 1928. If you had a tolerably generous estimate from Parliament, annually, you might in a few years be able to say there was no longer a want of mining skill in the country?— No doubt it is a want which I trust will soon no longer exist in Ireland. 1929. And ia the Town Institution, similar instruction might be given? — Yes, but the Koyal College is not a technical college, it is a science college, and in order to be made a technical one it would have to undergo a con- tiderable modification ; but, of course, I need not say that the theory of the science lies at the bottom of the process, and in the theories of these subjects, we instruct, I believe, in a manner not second to any in the United Kingdom. 1930. Have you a scientific system there that would adapt itself technically to the means of scientific instruction ? — Yes, by expansion. 1931. With regard to the Castlecomer dis- trict, you told me that the great impediment there was the need of communication ? — Yes, it practi- cally locks up the coal in that district in very norrow bounds ; even in Kilkenny and Carlow all the coal sent in from that district has to be carted. 1932. So that there is a primitive want of communication separating the market from the product ? — There is. 1933. You yourself suggested a line of rail- way which might take the coal of Kilkenny into Tipperary, and bring the limestone of Tipperary to the agricultural land of Kilkenny ? — Or in an opposite direction ; it was a project I got some engineers to look on favourably of continuing the Shillelagh branch of the Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway westward by Carlow, carrying it across the Castlecomer coalfield, and the Tipperary coalfield, to unite with the Great Southern and Western system. 1934. When did you suggest this railway? — Several years ago ; I cannot exactly recollect the date. 1935. Nothing SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iBELAND). 9y 21 May 1885.J Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. 1935. Nothing came of the project ? — Nothing came of the project ; it was some parties in London whom I communicated with. 1936. Why did you communicate with an office in London? — Unfortunately I am so much at sea about the persons that I can only give a general answer. It was some engineer connected with Irish railways whom I communicated with. I cannot recollect the name at this moment, but I am satisfied that that would have been a most useful line. 1937. It would have given the miners a market? — It would have given the miners a market, and it would have enabled limestone to be introduced for agricultural purposes into this large tract of country where it is very much wanted indeed, owing to the clayey and stiff character of the soil. 1938. I understood you to say that you thought the scheme brought before the Privy Coimcil lately lor railway lines had been rightly rejected? — Yes, for that district. 1939. That was because the estimates were loosely made up ? — That was the conclusion I came to from hearing the evidence. It gives one an idea of the small regard which is paid to mining matters when I mention that I was in the room prepared to give evidence as to the advan- tage of one or other of these several schemes pro- posed in the district as opening a market for the mines, and I never was once called upon. I only mention that to show the small consideration that mining matters receive. 1940. Owing to the management of the inquiry the Privy Council rejected the line without having the opportunity of heai'ing that evidence which it was most important they should receive ? — Without hearing the mineral evidence. 1941. In fact, they heard nothing as to what would be the most valuable traffic ? — Not from me. 1942. Nor from anybody else? — There was some evidence given as to coal mines. 1943. Something vague and general? — Yes, it was something vague and general, but I had prepared a statement of evidence as to the quantity of co.al that would be developed by opening the railway. 1944. Does it- occur to you that when a rail- way like that would benefit an extensive district, the system of making the construction of it con- ditional upon the guarantee of interest by one or two baronies, is not a system favourable to the construction of such lines ? — It is a question between that system and any alternative one ; of course you cannot expect baronies which are outside the range of advantage to be willing to contribute to the guarantee. 1945. But what I suggest is, that where the range of advantage is wide the burden should not be, and, indeed, cannot be, placed upon a narrow area ? — It ought to be extended in a wide sense ; that is to say, assuming a considerable area would be benefited by the introduction of a projected railway. 1946. You would establish a general co-relation between beuefit and burden ? — Yes. 1947. You think that subject is worthy of con- sideration ? — Yes, I do. 1948. I understand there is no want of railway 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued, communication in Tyi-one ? — They have mnde a line in the last few years which runs northward from Dungannon and encircles the whole of that district, and that would open the Coalisland district. There is also canal communication with Lough Ncagh and the Bann and other districts. 1949. Turning for a moment to Castlecomer, could not the river communication there be utilized? — There is no river communication there. 1950. The Barrow is near it? — The Barrow is near it in a sense, but it is a long way off; that is to say, it would be no benefit whatever to the coalfield. 1951. Not with a short tram line? — I do not think that the Barrow would be the slightest use to that coalfield. 1952. Then with reference to Tyrone, though the lines are there, we heard fi-om you that a promising industry failed at Coalisland because of the rates, and Mr. Whitworth stated that he considered the railway rates in the north of Ireland ^prohibitory for any coal industries ; what do you say to that? — It has never yet been pro- posed in a definite and tangible manner to connect the coal and iron industries in Ireland, that is to say, for the purpose of smelting of raw material, and therefore, I cannot say whether the railway companies which would have to be dealt with would not, if the proposition were put before them in a tangible form, be inclined to grant rates which would make it feasible to manufac- ture the iron. 1953. But taking the railway rates as they are, and considering that you must either bring the coal to the iron or the iron to the coal, or bring the two to meet one another at an inter- mediate point ; could the thing be done at the present rates? — I presume it could not be done. 1954. Passing to another point; a very promising attempt to establish a great colliery failed because of the difficulty of removing the water ? — Yes, that is so ; that is in the neigh- bourhood of Drumglass. 1955. That would have been a great colliery if it had succeeded ?^1 cannot say, but it had all the elements of a fine colliery. 1956. You do not agree with Mr. Whitworth that so much water was due to the dislocation of the measures, but that it was due to the water coming in from the old workings, or to the water coming in from the vicinity of a lake or pond? — That has been suggested, but I think it is rather improbable. I think it is owing to water coming in from the old workings in the seam percolating into the strata of the new mine. 1957. Then, I understand that they had an engine not sufficiently powerful to cope with the water ? — That is so. 1958. Then, as far as that is concerned, it is only a question of greater pumping power ? — That is so. 1959. Therefore, that part of the failure should not discourage people ? — No, but if gentlemen take up a coal mine with the intention of laying out capital upon it, and they find a much larger amount of capital has been expended upon it, as is being often found to be the case in n2 all 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1886.] Professor HuLL, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. all districts, it is a discouragement to them to go on. 19G0. But there was an earlier difficulty than that ; instead of accepting what you consider the intelligent direction of Mr. Hardman, they brought a Mr. Molyneux from Staffordshire, who set them to work upon a sandhill or a quick- sand ? — Yes. 1961. Which cost them over 1,000/. of itself? — Yes. There is no greater difficulty to deal with than quicksand in sinking a shaft. 1962. This gentleman from England found out the grentest difficulty in the country with his superior skill and set them to work upon it ? — Yes. 1963. I suppose you would say that the people who know the country best would be the best adapted to promote its industries and select ap- propriate sites for establishing them ? — Yes. 1964. Every one knows that the failure of that colliery was largely due to the initial blunder in the selection of that spot, and the use- less waste (if money it entailed ? — Yes, that 1,000/. spent on machinery would have gone far to buy the extra pumping power. 1965. That part of the coalfield that you referred to as the concealed field near Lough Neagh, extends over 5,800 acres, I think? — Yes. 19G6. Could you, without referring to your figures, state the probable yield of that field? — 1 think there is room there for several large collieries to be established, which ought to pro- duce, if they were properly worked and developed, each about 200 tons of coal a day. 196V. You say that the rise and fall of the prices of coal, dependent upon the English market, do not affect the prices of coal in that region? — That is my impression, but I may be wrong. I do not think it is likely to affect it at the present time. 1968. But what you say is, that as yon have in England hereafter to go deeper, the difficulty of raising coal will increase, and the consequent rise in price will make the Irish conditions of raising coal relatively more favourable ? — Yes, it will have that effect. 1969. Your estimate, given a little while ago, that the coal of England would last for 1,000 years, was based upon the assumption that the mining would not go below 4,000 feet ? — Yes, of course I had to take some limit, because the coal seams in the English coalfields go some of them to 6,000 or 7,000 or 8,000 feet deep. 1970. What is the lowest working? -The lowest working now is nearly 1,000 yards. 1971. Keeping to the same denomination, let us say 3,000 feet?— Yes. 1972. Do 1 gather that you think 1,000 feet more will supjjly you for 1,000 years? — No; excuse me, what I said was that my estimate was made originally in 1859 when the annual output ■was only 60,000,000 tons, but that output has now been more than doubled, and consequently the time of its duration would be proportionately restricted. 1973. Shall we say 500 years then ?— Yes, but even that requires qualification, because when very deep mines only remain the price will rise very largely. Mr. Sexton — continued, 1974. So that within what you would call a limited period the price must materially increase? — Yes, the price must materially increase within a limited period. 1975. 1 understand the depth of 4,000 feet is 1,000 feet lower than the lowest depth of the seams in this Tyrone District ? — Yes, I think it is very likely to be so ; that 3,000 feet would pro- bably take in all the workable seams in that dis- trict. 1976. Seeing that those seams lie one over the other, and that the lowest is only at a dei^th of 3,000 feet, the great bulk of that coal is available at a much more shallow depth ? — The great bulk of the coal is available at a much more shallow depth, that is so. 1977. The great cause of the indifferent suc- cess of the coal industry, I understand from you, has been that the seams were irregular ? — At Coalisland, where the seams are shallow, near the outcrop they are very much broken by faults and dislocations ; but my impression is that as we recede from that jiarticular place towards the dip, and fai'ther from the main fault which cuts out the coal altogether to the north, the coal will be in a more regular and less broken condition. 1978. You think the meagreness of result caused by broken and faulty seams will not be encountered at all to the same degree in the con- cealed field ? — Not to the same extent. The fact is that a certain number of faults, at sufficient dis- tances from each other, are desirable rather than otherwise, because those faults break off the inter- communication of different parts, and if one dis- trict becomes filled with water in the old workings the water is cut off from the other district by means of these barrier faults. 1979. So that these seams are both meagre and embarrassing when you work them ? — Yes, in Coalisland, where they have been worked. 1980. You conclude, as a scientific man, that in the concealed field under the new red sand- stone, between Coalisland and Lough Neagh, the seams are likely to be more regular and re- munerative ? — That is so. 1981. But then you have to tell the Committee that the doubt existing in the mind of the capi- talist as to the presence of coal operates tD prevent the presence of capital? — It does, and upon that account I urged the desirability of having some bore holes put down. 1982. Do you consider it in the least degree probable that the borings necessary to establish the existence of that coal will ever in our time be undertaken by private enterprise? — That is a hypothetical question, which it is very hard to answer. I am not aware at the present moment what the effect of the new relations between land- lord and tenant would have upon enterprise of that kind ; that is a point which will have to be faced. 1983. Suppose we act upon the assumption that the individual disposition of landlords will not much longer be allowed to operate in the way of preventing the development of industry, what would you say ? — The mineral rights are always reserved under the Land Act to the landlord; I only mean to say that a tenant now has certain powers over the land which might make him rather the obstacle than the landlord. 1984. If SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IRELAND). 101 21 Mmj 1885.] Professor Hull, li-.d., f.r.s. \Continued. Mr. Sexton — continued. 1984. If the State, as a public measure, decides to make those borings for the purpose of satis- fying capitalists and others as to the existence of great beds of coal in that district, do you think that your Department of the College of Science would be able to supervise those operations ? — The Department of the Geological Survey would be very happy to give every assistance in our power as regards the selection of the sites on geological principles, but we could not under- take, of course, the superintendence of the opera- tions further than to visit them from time to time, aud give advice as regards them while the operations were in progress. 1985. But I suppose you could undertake to secure that the experiments were made under the most promising conditions, made economically, and made with a view to securing the best results for the money? — Cei'tainly. 1986. Now passing to the subject of another minei'al, the ironstone is all exported in an un- manufactured condition, is it not ? — It is. 1987. And although it may be true, as Dr. Lyons suggested to you, that we have not enough coal to smelt all the iron, does not it occur to you that that is rather a remote and abstract question ; that we might as well begin without inquiring as to the ultimate limit of our capacity ? — Of course it was only a theoretical question that Dr. Lyons asked. We must make a beginning. 1988. The abstract question of Dr. Lyons might become practical in the next century ? — Yes. 1989. Now I will ask you a question in regard to tree planting ; tree planting would have, as I understand, a double beneficial effect, it would improve the soil and it would also supply the material for charcoal ? — It would improve the soil and also give a great deal of industrial employ- ment in the agricultural districts. 1990. Are you aware of Dr. Sullivan's plan, rejected like most of his other plans by the Ad- ministration in Ireland, to found moveable schools which might be here to- day, where they might either plant a piece of ground or plant a mountain side, and that when that small school had finished its particular work it might be moved to another part of the country to perform similar operations there ? — I had not heard of tliat before. 1991. His idea is that what they had done in one district might serve as a model for that district, and that when the school had so far fulfilled its teaching function it might move to another place? — Yes, it would be carrying out what the Royal Agricultural Society has done with a great deal of benefit in the way of establishing moveable dairies, to give instruction in making butter in various parts of the country. 1992. I was much struck by the circumstance that in your interesting return of the acreage available for planting trees that area was situated almost altogether in the mountainous districts of the western seaboard ? — Yes, those are the dis- tricts I consider most available, because I exclude those districts which ought to be under tillage or grass. 1993. So that a peripatetic school of forestry might go over the whole area with which we are concerned in a year or two, and diffuse amongst the people practical instruction as to the planting 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. of trees ; would that be your opinion ? — I do not think that a year or two would do ; I think they would require to remain a year or two in one spot ; the process is one that takes a considerable amount of time. Good trendiing is the first thing ; then there is planting and fencing, and a number of extraneous works, which require to be attended to before you can consider your planta- tion in a proper position to be left to itself. 1994. But if a system of forestry were set actively at work, considering, as you say, that the trees would be available five years from the time of planting, I suppose many years would not elapse from now until we saw some result? — Wo; the fact is, that the thinning process becomes profitable in most cases ; the young trees that are taken away for thinning are the first fruits; then, as time goes on, the larger trees become available. 1995. Turning to another subject of industry, I have been greatly struck by the evidence upon the subjects of slates; the Killaloe slates pay a 6 per cent, dividend, I think you said ? — I was sj3eaking from recollection ; I think they paid 6 or 7 per cent, from the last report I saw ; I did not pay much attention to it because I am not a shareholder. 1996. I do not think your intelligent apprecia- tion of facts is limited by your financial interest? — I hope not, but that is the reason I could not speak definitely as to the figure. 1997. The Valencia quarries also produce good flag stones, do they not? — Yes, they produce good flag stones, and very good qualities of slates. 1998. And in Mayo and Donegal we might also have good slates? — Yes, in several places. I should like to add that the Donegal slate quarries near the town of St. Johnstown are very extensive, and recently an enormous quantity of slates has been taken out. I understand the quarries failed, or at least ceased working, but I apprehend that was entirely due to the want of communication ; there was no communication except by country roads with those slate quarries. 1999. We have excellent slates in Ireland yet; you tell us that Bangor slates are brought to Dublin ? — Yes, they are. 2000. How would you apply yourself to that condition of facts in the interest of Irish industry? — As far as I know 1 am afraid there are no slates in the immediate neighbourhood of Dublin that will compete with the North Wales slates. 2001. 1 suppose, if we had the ideal condition of railway communication you have been talking about, we would have the Killaloe slates in Dublin? — I do not mean to say the Killaloe slates are not brought to Dublin for certain pur- poses, but the main quantity of slates used in Dublin are imported from North Wales ; still, no doubt, with greater facilities for transit the Killaloe slates would have a better chance. 2002. We would have more Irish houses in Dublin with Irish roofs upon them? — No doubt. 2003. You expected to bring the stone for the new museum from Donegal ? — Yes, that is so. 2004. There again, if you had only the rail- way you could use that stone ? — The fact is, that there is no railway within a good many miles from the quarries at the present moment; the N 3 nearest 102 MINUTES OF KTIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Mr. Sexton — coniinued. neai-est railway is that which runs towards the town of Donegal, and those quarries would be several miles beyond Donegal, so that, although 1 did not mean to say that if there were railway communication and fair rates, the stone might not be brought from the quarries to Dublin, still under present circumstances, the fact is that the nearest station is 10 or 12 miles distant. 2005. Is it granite which you mean to use ? — No ; it is freestone from Mount Charles. 2006. Is that as good a stone as you can get anywhere else ? — Yes ; we had samples of several stones before us, and we all came to the conclusion that this was the best stone ; it is in the Marquis of Cunningham's property. 2007. You would have to take it by sea, would you not? — Yes; we shall have to take it by eea. 2008. That is a case, I should think, for the development of railway communication, that is to say, if the stone were acquired inland ? — Yes, there is, no doubt, plenty of freestone and lime- stone if there were only facilities for carrying it ; for instance, in the Lough Allan district, there are plenty of flag stones, such as are worked in Lancashire and Yorkshire at the present day. 2009. After your answer to Mr. M'Carthy, would you still say that the Irish marble is not situated f ivourably for statuary purposes ? — I am still of the same opinion as I was. 2010. So that the subject of Greek statuary will still be a matter of difference between you and him? — I am not aware of having seen a piece of Greek statuary that was other than white marble, Parian or Pentelic. 2011. There is, at any rate, no question that the Irish marble is excellent ? — It is. 2012. You think that the system of technical education suggested by Dr. Sullivan and backed up by yourself, would lead to two things ; first, the production of a body of artists who would be able to work this stone ; secondly, the creation of a public taste which would provide a market for it? — Yes, certainly ; and I think tliose two re- sults would come about. 2013. Then we would no longer be importing as we do now Belgian manufactured marbles, and marbles from Italy and Devonshire ? — Except those kinds which we cannot produce ourselves, but I think there would be very little of that ; if there were a more general cultivation of taste and knowledge of art, we should have to import very little marble from any country ex- cept for statuary purposes. 2014. Do not you think that all of us who are interested in Ireland should exert ourselves, in view of the fact that Galway marble is suitable for building, in bringing about a state of things which should result in the use of our own marble for purposes at home? — Yes ; I am a Home Kuler to that extent, at all events. 2015. You were asked about the decay of art work for certain classes of artizans in Dublin ? — Yes. 2016. You told the Committee that some of the marble mantelpieces put up in Dublin, I think you said, during part of the last century, were of Italian marble, and worked by Italian artists ? — Yes ; and so were some of the beautiful stucco house decorations. Mr. Sexton — continued. 2017. Then I would ask you, is it not the fact that in some of the streets in Dublin the houses where you find these beautiful Italian mantel- pieces, formerly the residences of the wealthy, are now let out as single tenement houses at from 3 s. to 4 s. a week, and whether that does not throw considerable light upon the causes of the decay of that industry? — The fact is self-evident, but the cause is not evident. 2018. But the fact is that houses once in- habited by the wealthy are now tenement houses? — Quite so; but we must recollect that the wealthy nowadays like to live out towards the country ; and as a matter of fact we know they do ; they get as far as possible from the centre and smoky part of the town. There is a sort of centrifugal force at work with regard to resi- dences. 2019. Have you seen any of the mantelpieces of the new houses lately ? — I have, I suppose, seen them ; I have seen some. 2020. They are not marble, either Irish or Italian ? — A good number of them are marble ; and if I speak of my own house in the Raglan- road, one of the mantelpieces is solid marble, from Cork ; at least I believe it is so. 2021. The Committee would be rather dis- posed to think that that would be an exception. Are you aware that you cannot go into a single room in a street like Gardiner-street, Gloucester- street, and other streets in the centre of the city, in rooms inhabited by shoemakers and other poor workmen, without seeing marble mantel- pieces of beautiful work, worked by Italian artists? — Yes, I believe that is largely the case. Chairman. 2022. But those would not be Irish marble? —No. Mr. Molloy. 2023. With regard to the mineral wealth of the country, I want to ask you about the mining in the Ovoca district ; previous to the introduc- tion of Spanish pyrites they paid very well, I believe? — Yes, I believe they did; they have at one time been worked upon a very large scale, and I have no doubt it was the introduction of foreign ores which has been the cause of their not being worked now to the extent that they were formerly. 2024. Do you think that the minerals in the district could, under a better system, be worked to a profit now? — I really could not give an opinion about that ; it is such a purely technical question, bearing upon the specialities of the place itself; they are being worked now at the present moment to a small extent, but some of the mines have been abandoned. 2023. Still, if you take the average of copper and sulphur in the pyrites of that district, it is a very fair sample, is it not: 30 to 37 per cent, of sulphur and 10 or 11 per cent, of copper is a very workable ore ? — It is a workable ore. The fact is, copper ores have been introduced from South America and the Cape, and other districts, in such large quantities, that it has had the same effect upon the Cornish mining as it as had upon our Irish mining. 2026. Passing SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDDSTKIES (iEELAND). 103 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. \_Continued. Mr. Molloy — continued.. 2026. Passing from that to the gold districts ; what is your opinion as to the gold districts ? — I have no doubt there is a great deal of gold to be got in the same locality that it used to be got in, upon the west of a mountain called Crochan Kinshela, one of the Wicklow mountains. There is a valley there in which the gold was obtained by washing from the alluvial materials ; and there is no reason to suppose that there is not as much gold in the alluvial material which has been left behind as there was in that which has been washed. 2027. Are you aware that it vai-ies from a quarter to half an ounce of gold to the ton in the alluvial deposits? — I was not aware of that exactly ; that may be so, but I do not know it as a fact. I thought it was probably like much other gold mining, that you might come upon large nuggets occasionally ; I did not know that there was any quantity which might be calcu- lated upon. 2028. I am taking the figures from an average which has been made ; but you are aware that the character of the deposit is not one which renders it difficult to work ; it is easily availed of? — Yes; it is alluvial gravel. 2029. And you see no reason why that industry could not be worked at a fair profit ? — I think it is very likely that it could. It is said that very large quantities of gold were got there in former times, before it was under the Government. 2030. Before 1796 or 1797 ?— Before the Go- vernment took it up. It became Government property, and then it fell off. 2031. The peasants, in a fortnight, made over 3,000 I. worth of gold, and then the Government managed it, as governments sometimes do manage things, so as to make an absolute failure of it, and they had to abandon it. You tliink that that industry might be worked to some extent? —Yes. 2032. And that the source of the gold might be traced up the mountain side ? — The geologists have failed to discover the source of the gold in the old rocks, though no doubt that is the source; but there is a gentleman who has been at work in gold mining at Avoca, at VVoodenbridge, up to the last year or two ; he has been working a diiferent valley from that which was formerly worked ; but of course we do not know with what results. 2033. You think that that is an industry well worth working up? — I do. 2034. Now, with regard to the planting of trees, you suggested that in your opinion, roughly speaking, 3,500,OuO acres should be planted? — 1 gave that as a rough estimate. 2035. How much of the waste land of Ireland would that leave? — There are supposed to be about 5,000,000 acres of waste land, and there would then be about 1,500,000 left. 2036. Would the million and a half that you propose to leave after the plantation be good valuable agricultural land? — I would not say about its being good, but it would be agricultural land, I leave a considerable margin in my own estimate of the land that might be planted ; there might be a good deal more. 2037. The remainder, the million and a half, if drained, as has been proposed so often, would 0.98, Mr. Molloy — continued, become at least fair agricultural land?— Pro- bably so ; my estimate was only approximate. 2038. I suppose you agree with Dr. Sullivan in what he said as to the subject of drainage ? — I think it is a most important subject, but I think a great deal more should be done by the farmers themselves. There are certain districts in which the drainage is lamentably in the background, particularly in parts of the north- west of Ireland and parts of Fermanagh. 2039. But in most of the badly drained dis- tricts of Ireland, if a system of arterial or large drainage were undertaken, it would then be more easy for the farmers to carry out' this drain- age, would it not? — That would be the case in the flat districts, but the districts I reier to do not require anything of the kind ; they are sufficiently hilly to be drained without arterial drainage. 2040. With regard to the pbmting of trees ; what effect would the planting of a large quan- tity of trees in Ireland have upon the climate as regards rain? — I do not think it would materially afl^ect the quantity of rain that would fall in Ireland, but it would of course prevent the rain running oflf suddenly and flooding the rivers, and in that way it would be beneficial; it would cause the I'ain to be carried off in a more gradual manner. 2041. That would be very beneficial ? — 'Yes, that would be very beneficial in preventing the sudden flooding of land. 2042. And also it would give a considerable amount of shelter from the wind, taking the Connemara district for example ?— It would. 2043. That would be of advantage to the district ? — To the inhabitants it would. 2044. And to the agriculture? — I suppose it would. 2045. It would also have a beneficial Influence on the marsh lands in preventing sickness, would it not? — Yes; but I do not think there is any- thinjr like malaria arising in Ireland from marsh lands. Where that is the case it is owing to the high temperature along with the saturation of the soil. 2046. However, to an extent, whatever it may be, it would have a beneficial influence?— It would have a beneficial influence upon the climate in making it more healthy. Timber, particularly fir trees, larch, and that kind of timber, are known to be very beneficial to health. 2047. I believe it is the fact that most of the wood which is sent into Ireland for building purposes and such things, comes from Norway and Sweden ? — Yes, it does. 2048. Are you aware that the Norway and Sweden forests will not last much longer? — I know that the large timber is being very rajiidly exhausted. 2049. AVould you say that it would be exhausted in 10 or 20 years ? — Probably large baulks of timber will be very difficult to obtain in 20 years. 2050. Whereas in every other country in Eurrope they are endeavouring, not only to economise their forests, but to plant to a very- much larger extent ? — Yes ; the urgency of the necessity for plantation is now becoming recog- nised, I suppose, in all parts of the world. 2051. And we, in comparison with those coun- N 4 tries. 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, i,L.r>., f.k.s. [ Continued. Mr, Molloy — contiuued. tries, are very much under-planted ? — We are very bitckward in that respect ; very much so. 2052. The plantation such as you and others have suggested would come in almost to supply an absolute necessity about the time that the trees have arrived at maturity ? — Yes. I think it would be a very large source of wealth to the country ultimately. 2053. For the pui-pose of these forests, I pre- sume, you would establish schools of forestry ? — Forestry would have to be taught, no doubt, along with agriculture. 2054. You would suggest that forestry schools should be established us moveable schools at the points of plantation, if possible ? — 'I'hat was Dr. Sullivan's suggestion ; I think it a very good one, but I think there ought to be one or more chairs of forestry attached to the large educational establishments. 2055. I understand he suggested the establish- ment of these schools subject to the appointment and maintenance of such a chair as you have mentioned ? — Yes ; I daresay he would have done so. 2056. The plantation of trees in Ireland, un- less you had such a scientific supervision, would be useless, owing to the undergrowth and tangle ? — It must be done in a scientific manner, under those who have had practical knowledge and experience in other countries. 2057. Otherwise it would be practically use- less ? — Otherwise it would be practically useless. 2058. Now, passing from the point of the schools of forestry, I should like, shortly, to ask you to come to the question of technical teaching in the Board schools ; have you had an opportunity of comparing the teaching in the National schools of Ireland with the teaching in the Convent schools, with regard to what may be called the teaching of trades, or hand labour ? — No. I know that in some of the Convent schools there is embroidery and that sort of thing carried on. 2059. Take the convent I know personally, myself, at Burr, in King's county ; they teach there lacemaking, embroidery, dairy work, sewing, and knitting, and, I suppose, other liandicrafts which are useful ? — I have no doubt of that, though I am not aware of it. 2060. That is what you would like to see in- troduced in the National schools, is it not ? — Yes, for the girls ; and I would add one or two other things, such as cooking ; that I consider a most important branch of knowledge. 2061. As far as the teaching goes, from that point of view, you would approve of the system of teaching in the Convent schools as against the system of teaching in the Board schools ? — From that point of view, as far as thai question goes, that is an advance in the right direction. 2062. I suppose you would approve of the teaching at Artane for boys ? — Yes, the teaching at the Artane schools, and also in the Industrial school for Protestant boys near Blackrock is very good ; in both these institutions they are taught trades, and are taught in a manner likely to be very uscl'ul to the country if it were widely extended. 2063. Generally, I presume, you would agree that in all these national schools and Board schools the introduction of the teaching of trades. Mr. Molloy — continued. such as we have just described, would be highly beneficial to the country at hirge ? — I think it is essential if we are not to fall still further back in arts than we are at tlie present time. 2064. Would you go witli me to this extent, that the reason we hnve failed so much, especially in competition with the German mechanics who have been imported into this country, for the furniture and glass trades, arises to a large extent from the presence of teclmical teaching in Ger- many, and from its absence at home ? — I think that that is the principal cause. In Germany every man is obliged, from the monarch on his throne, to the humblest man who is educated, to learn some trade, and I think that is an ad- mirable system. 2065. And if we continue in the same sleepy state as we are in now, wc shall be even further back in the race in a short time than we are ? — I have no doubt about that. 2066. Let me ask you a question upon another point ; would you not say that everything con- nected with industries in Ireland has been sub- ject to a general neglect? — Yes, as a general rule, with special exceptions. 2067. I know there has been an effort made lately to improve matters, but taking it during the whole of this century, has not hand industry been subject to general neglect ? — There are only two industries in the centre and south of Ireland, but there are several in the north that are in a flourishing condition, and which have not been neglected ; those are whiskey and porter brewing, the flax manufacture, and iron shipbuilding. I think those are four industries which have no* been neglected, and to those I sliould also add the manufacture of artificial manure. 2068. The manufacture of chemical manure has been quite lately introduced, has it not ? — Within the last twenty years, or somewhere about that. Chairman. 2069. Would you specify what industries have been neglected? — I wns asked ubout wool, but wool has locally been attended to; there are several excellent local factories of wool, but I do not think it has been attended to as it ought to have been. 2070. To what cause do you attribute the decay of those industries which you say have been neglected? — There are many causes; it is a complex question. Mr. Cropper. 2071. Might I ask what you mean by ''ne- glected"? — We do not occupy the jjlace we ought to do, as compared with other countries in those products, with the exceptions that I have mentioned. 2072. Do you not mean rather " not pursued " than " neglected ;" there is nothing done against them, is there ? — I think it comes very much to the same thing. 2073. But "neglect" sometimes implies ne- glect from above, that is to say, from the Go- vernmer.t? — I was putting that quite out of consideration. 2074. I used SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELAND.) 105 21 May 1885]. Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued. Mr. Molloy. 2074. I used the word " neu;lect " advisedly ; there is the question of drainage, in which Go- vernment assistance, althoujfh upon several occa- sions promised to be given, has not been given ; for instance, in 1848, in Sir Kobert Peel's time, there was a large scheme of drainage passed by this House which has never been carried out ; in all those cases of assistance afforded, or intended to be afforded by Parliament, has there not been the greatest difficulty in getting them carried into effect in Ireland itself, owing to the action of the Government officers ; that is to say, the delays which have been created ; I am not blaming the Government officers? — I am really not prepared to give an answer to the question. 2075. You are aware that Sir Robert Peel passed the Act through the House of Commons for the reclamation of either 750,000 or 500,000 acres, I forget which, but one or the other, and that of that, though the money was voted for it, and the whole scheme clearly laid down by Government, yet owing to difficulties met with in Ireland, but 3,000 acres have ever been touched ? — I am not prepared to answer that question. 2076. Now take the subject of neglect from another point of view. Dr. Sullivan suggested in his evidence, upon the last occasion, the establish- ment of banks of assistance, that is to say, National banks, in Ireland, to assist the develop- ment of trade ? — Yes, he did. 2077. Do you agree with him in that? — I have not had time enough to consider that matter. 2078. Are you aware that in Belgium and Holland, and elsewhere indeed, those banks have been established for the purpose of giving this aid to industrial enterprise ? — I understand that to be so, therefore I should presume it is a good plan. 2079. But without speaking ol the particular means, would you say that it would be an ad- vantage to the trade of the country generally, if some assistance, coming from some such source at least, could be given to the development of industries in Ireland in the way of advances ? — Yes, until the country has been sufficiently educated up to its wants. 2080. I speak of it as part of the scheme ? — I think some scheme of that sort would be abso- lutely required in order to encourage the trades first, but I am very much in favour of having these things left to private enterprise, rather that to extraneous assistance. Cajitain Aylmer. 2081. You have before you the geological map, which I believe has been compiled by yourself from Government and other geological maps, to which you have access ? — Yes, it is compiled from the published maps of the Geological Sur- vey, reduced to this scale. 2082. Are you satisfied that the Geological Survey of Ireland is reliable ? — If I were to say otherwise, 1 should compromise myself. 2083. But you are not responsible for all the survey ; I ask you the question advisedly? — Of course we do our best to make the maps reliable. 2084. Take, for example, the south-west part of county Cork ? — I have to say with regard to that, that that district was surveyed a great many years ago ; it was one of the first districts to be commenced, and it is the case with all geolofrical surveys that the first steps are never 0.98. Captain Aylmer — continued, as perfect as they ultimately become ; that is really inseparable from the undertaking. But we have recently had a re-survey of all that district of Kerry and Cork ; the maps are not yet published, although they are ready for engravinor. 2085. I am not overstating the case when I say that as regards that large mineral district in the south-west of Ireland upon the existing Government and geological maps, they are not correct? — I do not think they are ; I mean to say that the formation is a different one from what is shown, in my opinion. 2086. I believe it is put down as sandstone, when it is slate ? — Yes, it is grit and slate. 2087. I know that, because I surveyed it my- self. I believe you are here upon the subject of minerals, that is your specialty. I find from the last report which is before me, of the Com- missioners of Mines for 1883, that there are a number of Inspectors called Her Majesty's In- spectors of Mines, and that all the reports in this book give the statistics of the various districts ; but there is no report of an Irish Inspector of Mines ? — The inspection of mines is carried out by Mr. Dickinson, one of Her Majesty's In- spectors for Lancashire ; he comes over every year and visits Ireland. 2088. He reports upon the Manchester District and Ireland ? — Yes. 2089. But there is no special report for Ireland ? — No special inspector. 2090. Do not you think it would be advisable that there should be mining inspectors for Ireland ? — I think it would if mining operations were carried on to a larger extent than at present; but Mr. Dickinson is, no doubt, quite capable of fulfilling his duties in the present state of mining enterprise in Ireland. 2091. I believe I may safely say that some years ago 40,000 or 50,000 tons of copper ore were raised in the south-west parts of Ireland ? — Yes, probably so. 2092. I find by the statistics for 1883 a total amount of 182 tons of copper ore ; can you account for the extraordinary decrease of copper mining ? — I cannot speak jiersonally of the statistics, because I have never examined them personally ; they were not part of my duty ; but I may say that some of those mines were partially worked out, and jOTmarily I think the decrease is due to the introduction of foreign ore, which has depreciated the value and rendered mining less profitable in some cases or altogether un- profitable in others. 2093. As you say you have not paid special attention to the statistics I will not ask you any more questions about it ; but now I will ask you a general question ; are there not, not only in the south-west, but over Ireland generally, extra- ordinarily large deposits of copper ore ? — There are several most excellent lodes of copper ore, no doubt, in various parts of Ireland. 2094. Of late years the inclination of mining men in connection with copper has been to run to the poor ores with a good deal of sulphur in them which are found in large quantities, as in the Rio Tinto mines ? — That is so. 2095. Have you in your researches come across large deposits of cupreous pyrites in O Ireland, 106 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.e.s. [ Continued. Captain Aylmer — coutiuued. Ireland, such as there are al Rio Tinto? — No, except those at Avoca, I do not think there are. 2096. At Donegal or in the far west?— No, it is a curious thing that Donesjal, witli its extra- ordinary petrographical and geological conditions, is very poor in valuable metals or metallic ores. 2097. Do you imagine the surveyors have made any special search in Ireland for other deposits of minerals than those which have been made by private individuals? — If you include iron ore and coal, the Geological Survey has done a great deal to bring to our knowledge the extent of coal and iron deposit; but if you are speak- ing of the mineral veins of lead, copper, and so on, I do not know that the Geological Survey has made discoveries; in fact, these kind of lodes or mineral veins are always discovered by accident or by persons on the spot. 2098. Do not you think that that subject has been entirely neglected by the Government in Ireland, probably from not having inspectors of mines for Ireland? — The Inspector of Mines' duty is not to ascertain the existence of mineral veins ; his duty is only to see that the laws re- lating to mining are carried out. 2099. 1 am aware of that, but I will put it in this way : supposing there are, as I hope to be able to prove afterwards to the Committee there are, enormous deposits such as those at Rio Tinto, in the West of Ireland, there is no Government authority of mines connected with Ireland who has any knowledge of them, or the means of arriving at that knowledge ; is that so ? — I should not at all say that ; I think probably my col- league, Mr. O'Reilly, who will be called to give evidence, has personal knowledge of those matters. It ought to be stated that within the last few months, an officer of the Geological Survey was specially deputed to examine and report on the mineral veins along the south shore of Bantry Bay. The Report was prepared and forwarded to His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant through the Under Secretary. 2100. I understand you wish to leave the question of these particular minerals to Professor O'Reilly ? — Yes, of these particular minerals. 2101. I have been requested to ask you what are the special duties of the Inspector of Mines from Manchester when he visits Ireland? — He visits the collieries and other mines. He sees, in the first place, that children below a certain age are not employed, and that the working gear is in proper condition. Then he takes memo- randa of the number of hands employed, and the output of mineral, and matters of that kind. 2102. His whole report on Ireland appears on one page of his lengthy report on Manchester and Ireland; I would ask you wliether you can confirm this : " The number of persons employed in the mines of Ireland has dimmished mere than one-half within the last 10 years " ? — I gave in a report this morning to the honourable Chairman upon that matter. 2103. 1 now come to a question which you more especially give attention to, namely, coal and iron. 1 heard with great interest the questions of Dr. Lyons, he asked you about the iron wire that might be made, I presume by the use of charcoal in Ireland ; he said that that was mostly imported from the Jura ; is that within your knowledge ? — It was not within my know- ledge, and I stated soj Captain Aylmer — continued. 2104. Now with respect to the smelting of iron in Ireland ; 1 think the coal found in the northern districts of Antrim and Tyrone is bituminous ?— Yes. 2105. And it is anthracite in all the rest of Ireland ? — Yes, in the s,)uth and centre. 2106. Is the bituminous coal of Antrim and Tyrone well suited for smelting iron ore ? — I presume it is ; I do not know any reason why it should not be. 2107. The impurities and sulphur are not excessive? — No; some of the seams are, I dare- say, of the average purity of coal. 2108. To what valuable purposes of the industry of ore smelting could the coals which are now produced in Leinster, Munster, and Connaught be put? — They could be put to smelting purposes, but they are too far from the iron district. 2109. For other purposes of industry cotild they be apyilied ? — The Castlecomer coal is very generally used for malting purposes ; it is a very good coal lor generating steam. 1 had a wagon of it brought up to Guinness's brewery some few years ago for the purpose of testing its evaporating power, and it gave very high results indeed. Mr. Sexton. 2110. Where is the malting you speak of done with that Castlecomer coal ? — There is a good deal of it all over the country. 2111. In Kilkenny chiefly, is it not? — In Carlow partly, I think. Captain Aylmer. 2112. The coal in the three southern provinces would be useless for household purposes, would it not? — It would not be very good for household purposes. 21 13. And it would not be so generally useful in manufactories as the coals of Lancashire and Yorkshire, for instance ? — No, it is a coal which requires a strong blast to keep it up. 2114. Then it is only applicable under specially advantageous circumstances ? — Yes, it is not the most desirable house coal, from the diflaculty of lighting it. 2115. Then, if we look to increasing the in- dustries of Ireland through steam, we must to a great extent depend, if we depend upon house coal, upon the coal of the North of Ireland ? — I think so. 2116. Now, to come to the iron in the North of Ireland ; you have spoken very favourably of the possibility of smelting iron in the North of Ireland ? — At some future time, when prices are different from what they are at present. 2117. I will not speak of prices, but it can be done ? — It can be done. 2118. The oi'es of Antrim have been for many years shipped to Cumberland, have they not? — They are, and have been. 2119. They cannot be used alone in Cumber- land, can they ? — They are not as a fact, but they can be, and have been on a few exceptional occa- sions. 2120. The two largest importers of iron ore from Larne to Cumberland are the West Cumber- land and the Solway Hematite Companies ; you may take that from me. What proportion of the Irish ores are they able to use with the Cumber- land hematite? — I could not say. 2121. Would SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (IKELAND). 107 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.r.s. [ Continued, Captain Aylmer — continued. 2121. Would you be surprised to hear that they could not use more than 50 per cent. ? — Very probably ; about that proportion. 2122. Is the reason for that that the Antrim ore is found in what is called shot ore form, like little bullets ? — Yes. 2123. And it runs down through the coal of Lancashire and chokes the furnaces ? — It is very fusible ; it fluxes very easily on account of the quantity of alumina it contains, but it is supposed to be a very wholesome medicine to the other ore. 2124. In fiict it is an excellent flux ? — It is. 2125. Is it much used by itself ?~ I believe not 2126. Are there any furnaces in which that ore is smelted in the North of Ireland? — There are none erected at the present moment. 2127. The upshot of what you have told me is, that smelting iu the North of Ireland would be an impossibility with the iron and the coal that you have got; unless they imported iron ore to mix with the local ore, they could not smelt advantageously in Ireland? — I would be very sorry if that were so. I have been told as a matter of fact that on one occasion when the hseraatite ore ran short in Cumberland, in one of the large furnaces, they found they had a great deal of Antrim ore lying neglected, and they thought they would try it, and they pro- duced pig iron with that ore alone ; I had that as a fact, but that was an exceptional case. 2128. One exceptional case has come before me, in which they got as far as to be able to use 69 per cent, of the Larne ore in the Cumber- land furnaces without its causing diflSculty ? — Probably for smelting that ore small furnaces only could be employed. 2129. Then you think that with the same economy as is now practised in Cumberland in making ha3matite pigs, furnaces could be con- structed which could smelt this shot ore by itself, without any other mixture ? — I have no doubt when the necessity arises a way of meeting it will be forthcoming. 2130. That the requisite description of furnace and furnace bars will be found when the necessity arises ? — Yes. 2131. Then that which may be taken as the cause for its not having been used in the district, is the fact that inventive genius has not hitherto been forced to adapt itself to the necessity ? — No, I do not think that is the cause ; I am of opinion that the cause up to the present time has been that we could not compete in price with the English pig iron by smelting on the spot. The question was very carefully gone into by the late Mr. Chaine and others, and that was the conclu- sion come to by them. 2132. Some of my friends uj)on this question have a very strong opinion that Irish ores in the North of Ireland could be worked. Putting aside the question of expense, whether it could be done more cheaply or not than in Cumber- land, is there any furnace existing to your know- ledge, at the present time, which will smelt this shot ore without admixture with the large kidneys ? — That is such a technical question that I am afraid I could not answer it. 2133. But you will allow that it is one of very great importance. If we are to decide as a Com- 0.S8, Captain Aylmer— continued. mittee that the iron trade may be developed there ; without knowing that there is any possible means of smelting we are in a difficulty? — But I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that it can be done and will be done. 2134. Except in exceptional cases? — Yes, except in the exceptional cases which I have mentioned. Mr. Sexton. 2135. But you have no doubt that suitable furnaces could be constructed to smelt the Irish ore locally ? — I have no doubt of it. Mr. Molhy. 2136. Is there any black band in Ireland ? — There is black band at Bally castle. 2137. In any quantity ?— Yes, in considerable quantity, only the difficulty is that it is open to an exposed coast, and there is a difficulty of ship- ping it. Captain Aylmer. 2138. Ur. Lyons asked you several questions about smelting iron with charcoal; he put it that that trade had gone out in Ireland on account of the want of charcoal, through the destruction of the forests ; but may I ask you : Is it not the case that the real decrease in the manufacture of charcoal iron all over the world, is owing to the improvement in the manufacture of steel, and the improvement in the manufacture of iron generally by new processes ? — I have no doubt that better processes have been partly the cause 2139. In fact steel can be made cheaper now than charcoal iron can be ? — Yes, charcoal iron is very seldom made, and only in very small quantities, on special demand. 2140. You spoke about marble; I am well aware of the great value of the marbles of Ire- land, but I wish to ask you a question about the skilled labour which used to work it for the purpose of ornamentation. I asked Dr. Sullivan the question : Were not the men who did all that beautiful sculpture and marble carving in the new museum in Trinity College, Dublin, and the Museum at Oxford, Irishmen, employed by Sir Thomas Deane ? — I think the men at Oxford were Irishmen. 2141. As a matter of fact, I know they were all Irish, for Sir Thomas Deane told me himself that they were all Irish Now where are those men; you have told me they are not to be had? — There are a number of skilled artisans in Dublin at the present time as sculptors and stone carvers. 2142. So that if any capitalist saw it advisable to open up some of the large marble quarries in Ireland, he could find skilled artisans competent to treat marbles ? — He could find some ; I could not say how many ; probably not a very large number; it would depend upon the extent of the demand. 2143. There is another question I should like to ask you ; in answer to Mr. Sexton you men- tion slate ; the slate deposits of Ireland are, perhaps, as fine deposits as are to be found any- where ; is not that so ? — I think Wales has the advantage over almost any country that I know in the way of slate. 2144. Do you mean slate opened up or slate lying dormant? — Slate lying there; they have particularly fine veins of slate in North Wales. 2 2145. In 108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 May 1885.] Professor Hull, ll.d., f.e.s. [ Continued, Captain Aylmer — continued. 21 45. In answer to Mr. Sexton, you stated that slate was brought from Wales to Dublin — It is. 2146. Is it not the case that Wales supjlies very largely the slate of Germany and central Europe ? — I think the Welsh quarries send slates to all parts of the world. 2147. Four years ago the German Govern- ment put 3 rf. a ton duty upon Welsh slate, for the purpose of developing their own slate ; do you know that ? — I am not aware of that. 2148. How is it that 10,000 tons are only stated to have been worked in all those Irish quarries in the year ? — The slate quarry industry is very much neglected in Ireland, no doubt, but there are not many places where there is very good slate. 2149. You mean it will not cleave? — It must have a very perfect cleavage. 2150. You do not mean that the many quarries of Ireland produce much which has a good cleavage, do you ? — There is plenty in the south-west with purple and greenish tints, which could be worked to a much larger extent than it is at present. 2151. But the amount which is of good cleav- age is small, is it not? — I have seen some very fine. 2152. Do you think that that inferior cleavage of the slate in Ireland, is due to the want of education in the men who quarry the slate ? — No, I do not think it is. 2153. The process of getting out slate in a way that it will cleave well, is an art, is it not ? — It is an art, and it is done in a very scientific manner in North Wales. 2154. Now a question on another subjectj viz., about glass sands ; are those shipped from Ireland to other countries? — I cannot say any- thing about that. Chairman. 2155. I will ask you a few questions upon what you have stated to the Committee with regard to the inspector from Lancashire, whom you mentioned ; has he anything to do with the examination of the quality and character of ores ? — I do not think the inspector has anything to do with the spllin>r, or even with the mining, except to see that the laws and regulations of mining are carried out. 2156. You answered a question put by Mr. Molloy with reference to trees ; I do not think you gave your opinion with reference to the effect of planting trees \ipon the absorption of moisture generally in the country ; is it your opinion that the planting of trees would absorb some of the excessive moisture which now pre- vails in some parts of Ireland ? — It has had that effect in other countries, and it has the special effect of allowing the rainfall to reach the ground gradually instead of reaching the ground sud- denly, carrying off" with it, as it does in many cases, the soil of the hill sides to the valleys. 2157. And you also alluded to the effect of Chairman —continued, pine woods upon health ; as regards Bourne- mouth, it is stated that one of its recommenda- tions is derived from its being surrounded by pine woods? — Fir trees are generally acknow- ledged to have a beneficial effect upon health. 2158. Now, with regard to the inspectorship of mines ; I see that in the Report which was published after the Industrial Exhibition of 1883, there is this passage ; " Would it not be desirable from many points of view that an inspectorship of Ireland be created, having for its object the collection of every class of informa- tion relative to mines and mineral products which, brought together and preserved in a mining record office in this country, would from an excellent basis for the development of our mining industries ;" is that passage conformable to your own opinion ? — I think it will have to be done. 2159. Then with regard to the school for min- ing, I see also, in the same book, which is a very interesting publication, there is this passage: " The depressed state of mining in Ireland may be fairly, in part, attributed to the total absence of any such special scientific institution as a min- ing school in this country, and consequently very defective knowledge as to the nature, extent, and characteristic of the lodes which pervade it. It is from a thoroughly scientific treatment of mining in this country that we can alone hope for any chance of maintaining our mining interests in the face of the overwhelming competition from abroad, and we may express the hope that, with the development which it is proposed to give to technical education in the three kingdoms, the interests of mining will receive full and due at- tention." Do you endorse, also, that opinion? — Yes, I think generally I could do so. 2160. You were not the author of the Report, I think?— No. 2161. You have been asked a question about the difficulty of transporting hay from one part of Ireland to another : is it true that a cargo of hay, brought from Holland, and intended to go to Cork, arriving in Dublin, goes back to Liver- pool, and then by ship goes round to Cork, and gets there cheaper than it would if landed at Dublin, and taken across country to Cork? — It is quite possible ; it is not at all unlikely, but I do not know it as a matter of fact. 2 162. A question was put to you by an honour- able Member of the Committee, with regard to canals ; whether the full development of the canal communication would assist to bring coals to the interior of Ireland. Now, I ask you whether that would not be better done, and much more readily, by a greater development of the enor- mous water-power which exists now in Ireland, and is not properly made use of? — There is no doubt that there is an enormous amount of water- power going to waste in Ireland. 2163. Would not that be more readily used as a method of developing native industry in the interior than any other mode ? — It would supple- ment it at any rate. SELECT COMMITTEE ON IXDUSTEIES (IRELAND.) 109 21 Mny 1885. Mr. Henry Parkinson, called in ; and Examined. Chairman. 2164. You are a barrister and magistrate, and were also secretary to the Dublin Exhibitions of 1861 and 1865?— Yes. 2165. And you were also secretary to the Irish Committee in connection with the Paris Exhibi- tion of 1878 ?— Yes, I was. 2166. Were you also chief editor of an im- portant work connected with manufactures and exhibitions, and have you for a number of years taken a deep interest in connection with the pro- motion of Irish industry ? — Yes, 2167. The first point which you wish to bring to the attention of the Committee is the manu- facture of woollens?— Yes. 2168. I need hardly ask you whether it was once a very large industry in Ireland ? — There was a very large export trade with foreign countries carried on in woollens previous to 1G99. 2169. I do not think we need go into the pro- hibitory measures which threw a check over the Irish woollen trade, but at all events from causes we are all well acquainted with, the woollen industry rapidly declined ; about what time do you fix that decline at? — About the year 1699. The 10th and 11th William III. imposed a penalty of 500 /., with the forfeiture of ship and cargo, for exporting woollen goods out of Ireland, except to England and Wales, and even that exception was rendered worthless, because an Act of the 10th of William III. put an extra duty upon the Irish woollen goods whicli made their export to England prohibitory ; the wool was then exported to Yorkshire. 2170. At that time the flannel trade was carried on in the County of Wicklow ? — Yes. 2171. 1 believe at the present time there is only one flannel manufactory in the whole of Ireland ? — Yes ; some years back, when Mr. Kenny Scott's flannel mills ceased working at his death, I was asked by the mayor and others in Kilkenny to start a company to carry them on, so as to keep the people who had been employed there still at work ; there was 15,000/. subscribed for the purpose in Kilkenny, but the trustees of Mr. Scott's will refused to enter into a provi- sional arrangement for the purchase of the mills, so the undertaking fell to the ground, and the mills were closed. 2172. There still exists a building called the Flannel Hall, in Rathdrum, in County Wick- Chairman — continued. low, I understand ? — Yes ; it is still standing there at the top of the hill outside the town. 2173. At that time there were large fairs in County Wicklow, were there not? — Yes, at Roundwood and Bray; I have spoken to men who carried on a good trade in woollens, buying friezes and worsted yarns at the fairs of Bray, Roundwood, or Togher. 2174. Has the woollen trade revived latterly? — It has, considerably. 2175. Whereabouts is that? — In diff'erent parts ; the late Marquess of Waterford took the first step in establishing an industrial mill at Kilmacthomas, for the manufacture of a rough kind of tweed, and it became a very favourite material for gentlemen to wear for shooting-suits. Then the Messrs. Mahony, of Blarney, suc- ceeded in making very good tweeds and friezes, and there were Messrs. Hill, of Lucan, County Dublin, they brought over Scotch foremen who trained the weavers, and they have made it a great success. Mr. Leachman, of Nier Vale, Clonmel, also established a good mill for friezes. 2176. These manufacturers are now producing an excellent quality of goods, I believe ? — Yes, they are producing excellent goods. 2177. I believe you have brought with you patterns of the goods Ihey respectively manufac- ture? — I have {hundinrj in some patterns); these were made at Nier Vale, Mr. Leachman's mill ; it is a very fine frieze. I have also brought with me a sample of English glass, of Irish glass made in Dublin, and of Belgian glass {exhibiting three wine glasses'). Those are made in Belgium, and are sold in Dublin at 7^ d. a dozen, including carriage. The Irish glass is fully equal to the best Stourbridge. 2178. What does the Irish wine glass sell for? — It is sold at 6 d. each, with 2oods, and he attributes to that fact the cause of the present growth of that industry. 2468. The fashion in dresses is favourable to the use of a stiff material ?— Yes. 2449. Would it be possible so to conduct the manufacture of Irish poplins as to make a fabric suitable to any fashion ? — Yes, I think so ; I think that is a trade that could be developed to a very large extent indeed. 0.98. Mr. "Sfexion— continued. 2470. With regard to poplin, and generally to woven stuffs, and to marble, and to the manu- facture of glass, would it not be the fact that education in art in the schools and in art classes in Ireland, would have a good effect in improving design ? — Yes. The same observations I have already stated would be applicable to the cloth industry, which ought to be very successful, but there has been a complaint that tlie goods are not produced as soon as they should be, so that when the cloth buyers come up to lay in their stocks for spring or winter, they might see the Irish goods, and buy some of those, but when the Irish goods come out at present the buyers have already supplied themselves. 2471. I suppose it may be taken as an axiom with regard to Ireland, or with regard to any country, that that country will fall back in in- dustry, unless the growth of art knowledge amongst the producers keeps pace with the growth of taste amongst the customers ? — No doubt that is perfectly true. 2472. This letter I have referred to, tells me that at the present time the one flint glass factory in Ireland is producing glass as good and as cheap as anything in England ; is that true ? — Yes, it is equal to anything pi-oduced in Eng- land, either at Stourbridge or Birmingham. I have been in the works at Birmingham. Osier is the chief man in England, also Dr. Lloyd at Birmingham ; they could not produce a better glass than that sample which is before you. Captain Aylmer. 2473. I wish to ask you just one question about the poplins. Are you aware that Messrs. Atkinson have had to refuse very large orders for poplins ? — They were never so busy before. 2474. But why have they not been able to carry the orders out ? — Because they have not the hands to carry them out. There are men coming back from America now to take up their looms again. 2i75. The Messrs. Atkinson have lost their hands by emigration, have they not? — They have, no doubt ; and the men went to other trades. Mr. Sexton. 2476. Do you think the citizens of Dublin would be found ready to co-operate in any plan aided by the State for the development of tech- nical education ? — Yes, I think so ; the want of technical education is felt everywhere. Mr. Molloy. 2427. I have listened very carefully to your evidence, and the impression it has made upon mind is this, that trade and manufacture in Ire- land to a large extent fail to revive owing to two causes ; one, the want of technical education in almost every department of trade and manufac- ture, and, secondly, the high railway rates charged by the railway companies .' — Yes, and the cost of fuel, which in the cases of pottery and glass is a very serious thing. 2478. But speaking generally, it is the want of technical education in the first place, and, secondly, the high railway rates ? — Yes. 2479. But where technical education exists in Ireland at the present day is in the voluntary schools ? — Yes, it is. q2 2480. And 124 MIKUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22 May 1885.] Mr. Parkinson. [ Continued. Mr. 3/wZ/oy— continued. 2480. AnA not in the National schools? — It does not exist in the National schools at all. 2481. Tlie young people from the voluntary schools come out much better educated in that sense, and receive higher wages, and get better places than they do from the other schools ? — Yes, that only applies to the girls ; but Artane is not what you would call a voluntary school ; they have a capitation grant from the grand jury. 2482. The introduction of technical education into all those schools would be the first aid to the trade and manuficture of the country? — Cer- tainly, to most trades. Mr. Kenny, 2483. I understood you to say in answer to the questions you have been asked, that the absence of technical education and the high railway rates, prevented the revival of industries, rather than having been the cause of their decline ; was not that so? — I think those elements are a great drawback to the development of Irish industries. 2484. As preventing their revival ? — I have no doubt that is so. 2485. You did not give the Committee any definite reason for the decline of the milling trade in Ireland ? — I attribute the decline to the free trade with America. 2486. And the bad machinery? — Yes, free trade and bad machinery, I think those are the two reasons. 2487. The cultivation of wheat in Ireland does not pay so well as the raising of cattle? — No, the bakers will not buy flour made of English or Irish wheat. 2488. It would be only fair to assume that the flour milling trade of Ireland would decline, seeing that they have the superior machinery in America which enables them to make better flour than we do ? — Their superior miichinery enables them to make better flour than we do. 2489. We were speaking about tram-cars ; are there no trnm-cars made in Ireland?--! think there have been, but they are mostly made in England. 2490. There are railway carriages made at Inchicorc ? — Yes, there are. 2491. You cannot name any place where tram- cars are made in Ireland, can you ? — I cannot call any place to mind, but I think there were a couple of train-cars made in the neighbourliood of Dublin last year. 2492. Now with reference to the growth of flax, are you aware that some years ago, say 20 years ago, there was a great deal of flax grown in the south of Ireland ? — There was a market then established at Cork. There will be flax grown wherever there is a demand for it ; estab- lish scutch mills and you will have flax grown. 2493. But it would be absolutely impossible, as things stand, to make the flax profitable to the farmers in the south of Ireland ? — Certainly ; there would be no margin of profit left owing to the want of a market, and the great distance to send the flax to the scutching mills, and to the market in Ulster. 2494. Speaking about some system of the Loan Board in Ireland for advancing money to young mtmufactures, you did not define any exact system which struck your mind as suitable fo guard the Mr. .ffennw— continued, public interest ; to protect the State from fraud ? — What I suggested was that there is a board composed of very eminent commissioners, who have a secretary and a staff, and that to them with enlarged powers, and perhaps an addition to the staflf might be entrusted the making of those loans. 2495. Do not you think a much more equitable method, as far as the wliole of Ireland is con- cerned, would be to impose certain protective duties upon manufactured goods sent to us from other countries, including England and Scotland? — Certainly protective duties would be of great service in encouraging native industry. 2496. And that would be a better method than the State undertaking to nurse youno- manufactures by giving the money ; practically subsidising them ? — The thing is to start these factories. There is at present a want of commer- cial enterj)rise, and I think it would be a stimu- lous if the parties knew that they would get an amount equal to one-third of the capital they subscribed added by the Government. 2497. How is it that Irish banks always rush their money on to any speculation, rather than to an Irish speculation ?— It seems that there has been no employment in Ireland for capital during the last 5 or 6 years. 2498. And there is no employment for capital? — But they should seek for it. 2499. Do you mean to say that the Govern- ment should seek for it? — I mean that if there were an Act of Parliament passed authorising the Government to lend, through whatever body it pleased to name, a proportion of the proposed capital of some industrial undertaking, I think it would be a stimulus and an incentive to foi-m those companies. 2500. Do not you think that the so-called bankers are themselves a great deal to blame for the manner in which they invest their money ? — I think they are. 2501. Do you think if they were to devote their attention to the investment of money at all, they would be quite able to obviate the necessity upon the part of the Government of advancing subsidies ? — It would be very useful. 2502. Can you give a brief reason for the destruction of the cottage industries ? — Emi- gration has done a great deal towards tl.at. 2503. Do not you think the destruction of cottage industries is owing in a very considerable extent, if not almost entirely, to the imirorlation of cheap and gaudy goods from England which make it so much easierfor the farmers' daughters and cottages' daughters at very trifling expense, to get those fanciful thing which they wear as ornaments ? — A great deal comes from Scotland. I think Scotland is the worst competitor we have. 2504. That would be one reason for the de- struction of Irish cottage industries ? — Yes. 2505. It woidd be a very good reason for the destruction of Limerick lace, to see machine made lace from Nottingham largely employed? — No doubt it would, and it has been used to a very great extent. 250G. Do you think there is a proper dispo- sition upon the ])art of traders in country towns at the present time to encourage Irish manufac- tures ? SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iBELAND). 125 22 May 3885.] Mr. Parkinson. [^Contitiued, Mr. Kenny — continued. turcs ? — I am sorry to say that there is not so much US there should be ; I have found fault with a slinplcceper within 10 miles of Belleck for buying Scotch delf when at his very door he had better articles. 2507. Do you know that there is an annual migration of those country shopkeepers, from all parts (if Ireland, to what they call the English markets, that is to say, to Manchester or to Leeds and to Bradford, for the purpose of buying drapery? — There is an army of commercial tra- vcllcr.s going round the country from England and Scotland. Mr. Kenny — continued. 2508. Both those causes operate againt Irish industries ? — Yes, they do. 2509. Those men, they generally being the better class of shopkeepers in the country towns, who rush to England to buy their good, have their attention entirely distracted from Irish manufactured goods ? — They have. 2510. You think that if the country shop- keepers were to devote their attention more to the encouragement of Irish manufactured goods, such as woollen goods, they could do a great deal to keep up Irish industry ? — I think they could. Mr. Alderman Cornelius Eedmond, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Sexton. 2511. You are an Alderman of the Corpora- tion of the City of Waterford ? — Yes, and I have been so for 20 years. 2512. You have filled the offices of Mayor and ?-heriff ? — I have. 2513. Are you also a member of the board of guardians ? — I am, and have been for many years. 2514. And you are the proprietor and editor of a newspaper there ? — Yes, I have been the proprietor of the " Waterford News " for the last 35 years. 2515. Did you, at any time, procure from an Irish source a supply of paper ? — I did ; I procured from Dublin, for about 15 or 20 years, the sole supply of the paper I used, and I found the paper very good, not liable to break, and very durable ; it was a great convenience to me to be able to get the paper there, because I could get it by tail in four or five hours. 2516. The paper did not easily tear, and bore handling well ? — It was a strong tough paper. 2517. And you also got paper from Cork, did you not ? — I did ; uot for the newspaper, but for other purposes. 2518. Did you find that paper equally satis- factory for other purposes ? — It was very satis- factory indeed. 2519. Under what circumstances did you cease to use Irish paper ? — I used the paper until the mill ceased to work. 2520. When was that ? — I suppose it was about 20 years ago. It was Sir Alexander Mac- donnell's mill I used to get it from. 2521. Now you are obliged to submit to the inconvenience of longer notice ? — Yes ; I have to give a very much longer notice to get it from England or Scotland. 2522. Is the paper not so good for the purpose? — It is not so tough or so durable ; the Irish paper is chiefly made of rags, and rags make the best paper for printing, although I know paper is made from wood pulp, and from certain grasses from Spain, but I believe there is no paper so good and durable or tough as paper made from rags. Kags are to be found very much, I am sorry to say, in Ireland ; they are imported into England and Scotland from Ireland in large quantities. 2523. Do you find the paper you now get Mr. Sexton — continued. from Great Britain any cheaper than the paper you used to get in Ireland? — Yes, it is cheaper, I think, on the whole, but the carriage causes an additional expense. 2524. Is the cost (to use a better word) of the English paper less than the cost the Irish paper used to be to you ? — No ; the cost of the Irish paper would be the lesser ; that is, taking into account the carriage. 2525. Therefore I assume you Avould be glad to return to the Irish paper ? — I would ; I do not see anything to prevent the Irish getting up the paper manufacture again ; I think it is quite on the cards that it will be got up ; it ought to be got up and kept up ; there is plenty of power ; we have steam and water power, especially the latter, and the market is there. 2526. Have you any practical suggestion to offer to the Committee with a view of reviving the manufacture of paper in Ireland ? — Itrequires the people to combine and put capital together, and to commence the work, and then for the people who use paper to purchase it. 2527. You, as a newspaper proprietor, tell the Committee that notwithstanding your desire to buy Irish paper you are obliged to keep on using English paper, although the material and the market both exist in Ireland ? — They both exist in Ireland. I prefer to get the paper from Dublin, or from any other part of Ireland. I believe there is only one manufactory of news- paper in one place in the north, of which I know but little. 2528. May I ask you if the board of guardians of which you are a member has exerted itself toward the use of Irish products in the union workhouse ?— The Waterford board of guar- dians and other boards of guardians elsewhere, have exerted themselves to induce the use of ordinary Irish products, they buy nothing but Irish products when they can find them, because they believe them to be useful, more durable, and better, and that they hold longer as a rule than the products of other countries, especially friezes and flannels ; those especially last very much longer as a rule, because they are made of pure sound wool without any shoddy. 2529. Taking all the elements of expenditure into account, I mean the price of the article, the cost of carriage, and so forth, can you get for your board at Waterford these Irish goods as cheaply Q 3 as 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22 Mmj 1885.] Mr. Redmoxd. \ Continued. Mr. Sexton — continueil. as you can get others? — In some cases they would be able to get Irish goods cheaper, and in other cases a little dearer, At the same time we believe, and we know, that they last longer, and therefore we consider them cheaper. 25?>0. Upon the whole you consider you save money by using the Irish goods ? — Yes. I am confident we do save money, because the goods last very much longer. 2531. Do you, when you advertise for con- tracts consider what goods may be had in Ireland, and do you ever state in your advertisement that you would desire to receive tenders for a supply of goods of Irish manufacture ? — We generally state that we prefer Irish manufactures ; we give a distinct y)reference to Irish manufactures. 2532. VVould you be disposed to recommend that example to other boards in Ireland? — I would. 2533. Do you think that would of itself supply a good stimulus to production ? — I am quite cer- tain that it will, and that it has done so already. 2534. May I ask whether in the schools conducted by ladies of religious oi'ders in and about your city, anj-thing that might be called technical education is given to the girls? — Yes, in the Convent Schools in Waterford they give technical education ; they give instruction in making dresses, making stockings, and in a a variety of things ; even in making bread in Waterford. In the Waterford industrial schools, in tlie S^aint Dominick's Industrial School, for example, which you know very well, a very large school, and a beautifully kejTt school, the girls bake bread, and I have seen loaves turned out there as good as by any baker in the king- dom. 2535. Is that with a view of teaching them to make home-made bread in their own houses ? — Yes, and in private houses ; those girls are after* wards turned out as servants, and they are able to make very jjood home-made bread in the home in which they act as servants, whether in America or in Ireland, or in this country or elsewhere. They are especially useful in the country, where bread is very often not to be purchased. 2536. And no doubt when they are so com- petent they get better wages ? — No doubt they do ; there are a number of things they are able to do ; they are taught especially the use of the sewing machine in the industrial schools, and become quite adepts at that, sort of work, as well as in the whole routine of domestic employment. 2537. We have heard complaints that in some schools the girls are taught rather ornamental than practical sewing ; how is it in Waterford ? — I think that in some of the national schools they are only taught to read, write, and figure. I do not think that they are taught industrial pur- suits, whereas I think you ought to have more industrial pursuits taught in the different schools in Ireland; that is to say, more practical pursuits. 2538. I quite agree with you, and I would endeavour to ascertain from you what is the class of sewing taught in the Waterford Industrial School ; is it practical or otherwise ? — It is prac- tical. 2.539. Such as they can earn money by after- wards ? — Yes, it is such as they can earn money by, and they do earn money by it, but in the Mr. Sexton — continued. National and the other Government schools in the country I do not think the education is sufficiently practical. 2540. The teaching of domestic industry in the National schools for girls is a blank, is it not?— In the National and other Government schools, I think it is a blank, or nearly so. 2541. Do you think that the nuns are par- ticularly well suited to teach girls domestic industry, especially sewing?— I think they are, they understand it. 2542. Do you think the State would do well in any plan for the promotion of technical education to have particular regard to the efforts of the nuns, and to encourage them by a system of examination and results ? — I think that would be a good thing. 2543. I think you are very well acquainted with thg industries of the city of Waterford and with the general condition of the district around it ? — I am, very well. 2544. If my memory serves me rightly, bacon curing is a very important industry of the city ? — It is the principal trade in Waterford, and the people who work it understand it very well; some of the bacon curers have gone out to America to teach it in America and elsewhere. 2545. I believe the city of Waterford diff'ers from most other cities in Ireland in having maintained, or very nearly maintained, the level of its population? — It has maintained its population very well. 2546. Ever since the famine ? — Yes, other cities have gone down, such as Kilkenny and Limerick, but AVaterford maintains its population very well because it is a great seaport. 2547. Do you attribute that happy exception in the case of Waterford to some extent to the presence of the bacon curing industry ? — Certainly to some extent it is owing to that, but we have had other industries too. 2548. Keeping to bacon curing for a moment, would I be wrong in saying that that occupation maintains directly or indirectly as many as 1,000 families ? — I daresay it does, we have about eight or ten bacon curing establishments, some of the largest in Ireland. 2549. That industry is in a floui"ishing condi- tion, »nd requires no special public aid or public consideration ? — I do not think it does ; it is in a very flourishing condition. 2550. And we may let well enough alone in that case ? — Yes. I think it is able to compete with any place in the three kingdoms, or in any other part of the world. 2551. The cured bacon is mostly consumed iu England, is it not? — Mostly in England, and chiefly here in London. 2552. I remember when I lived in Waterford many years ago, seeing a building called the " Glass House," is that where the manufacture of glass was formerly carried on ? — Yes, the glass trade was carried on in the Glass House 35 years ago, or nearly 40 years ago. 2553. Then your personal memory of Water- ford carries you back to that time ? — I remember seeing the men working at that industry. 2554. Was it a considerable industry ? — Yes, it was a very considerable industry ; the glass was SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTKIES (IRELAND). 127 22 May 1885.J Mr. Redmond. [^Continued Mr. Sexton — continued. was remarkably good, and it is highly spoken of even now. 2555. What did they make ? — They made all kinds of glass, such as tumblers and decanters. In fact the gasalier that we have in our city hall, was made there, iind it is considered one of the prettiest things in Ireland at the present time. The glass formerly manufactured there is of great value even now. Such glasses as are to be found of the old Waterford make are about three times the price of the ordinai-y glass because they are heavy and durable, and yet fine glass. 2556. I have a letter in which the writer who is well informed upon the point, says, " It is a fact that at this time collectors are trying to procure from old householders some of those goods made formerly in Irish fiictories, :ind are getting- fabu- lous prices for articles manufactured at Cork, Waterford, Newry, Belfast, Ballymagarret, Dublin, and Ringsend"; have you heard of that?— Yes. 2557. Why are those high prices charged ? — Because the goods were so good, a decanter made by a Waterford manufacturer would fetch three or four times the price of an English manufac- tured decanter at the present time, they were beautifully wrought, they were good sound and heavy, and are very much admired even now. 2558. I believe you have one of those de- canters yourself? — Yes, I have one of those de- canters, and I would not sell it for any money. 2559. Are we to understand that the high prices paid for the glass are due not to any value that they have as models or memorials of an ex- tinct industry, but by reason of their merit ; — In consequence of their high merit there has been nothing made equal to the AVaterford glass of that time. 2560. We have had the sad fact stated by Mr. Parkinson that within one generation the 14 or 15 glass factoiies of Ireland have come down to one ; can you offer any explanation of that ? — I cannot offer any explanation of that except that our own factory in Waterford was knocked up (I have heard, I cannot myself say) in consequence of a strike ; the people who owned the factory were rich people, Quakers ; they did not care much about the trade, so they gave it up quietly and got out of it, and it has not been revived since. There is now another establishment for sack making and making wrappers for bacon in the same building. 2561. Waterford being a seaport close to Wales there is an easily available supply of coals for glass making? — Ccals are very much cheaper in Vv aterford than they are in London, because they are so easily got over from Wales ; it is a peculiarly good and convenient place for manu- facture because coals are so cheap. 2562. And the material is so abundant for making glass in that district ? — Yes the material is very abundant there for making glass ; the glass factory itself was within two minutes walk of the quay where the shipping is. 2563. Can you say whether the strike of workmen of which you have spoken is due to independent local action or whether like some other strikes of which we have heard it was promoted or originated from this side of the 0.98. Mr. Sexton — continued. Channel .'' — I cannot say that. I think, however, the workmen are very much more intelligent as a rule than they were then, and I do not think they would strike now if tl-.ere were such an establishment there. I am quite sure they would not. 2564. Do you think that the workmen now before they strike for hiition was carried out under very peculiar disadvan- tages ; and it realised more than I had at all ventured to think it could. 2862. Did you visit the Cork Exhibition the following year, in 1883? — No, I did not. 2863. Mr. Dickson asked you a question about boring for coal seams ; Professor Hull, I under- stand, suggested boring for coal seams in different portions of Ulster under Government super- vision. Would you be in favour of adopting the suggestion of Professor Hull in that respect? — Uj^on such a subject I would defer entirely to Professor Hull's authority. He is a gentleman who has studied this matter very closely and very intelligently, and his suggestions are con- nected with the expectation of finding coal dis- tributed over much larger areas than have been hitherto usually considered to be the limits of the existing coalfields, 2864. 1 believe Professor Hull suggested that those borings should be carried out by loans from the Government; but he did not make any suo-- gestion as to the method which should be pursued in making the loans, or as to any security for the repayment of the loans. Could you make any suggestion SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIES (iKELAND). 145 5 June 1885.] Sir E. Kane, ll.d. [ Continued. Mr. Kenny — continued. suggestion in that respect, or would you make any suggestion as to the making of Govei-nment loans? — No, I should not like to make any sug- gestion upon a subject which I have been so very little familiar with. I would go to this extent, that if it were considered that such tentative borings were desirable, and that if successful they would result in a positive public advantage, it would be fairer not to throw the expense of a very problematical result upon private individuals, but that the State should at least contribute in some practical way towards the cost of the experiment. 28G5. I believe the source of a very general complaint in Ireland is the want of sufficient railway communication ? — It is a very general complaint. 286G. You stated, I believe, in your evidence in reply to the honourable Chairman, that there is a want of through communication between towns throughout the provinces of Ireland ? — In many cases. 28C7. You spoke, however, of the line con- necting Waterford and Limerick ; did I under- stand you to suggest that that line was valueless ? — Certainly not ; quite the reverse ; it is a very excellent line. 2868. Still there is a great want of railway communication in various districts of Ireland, and that being the case could you account for the want of success that has met the Tramways and Public Companies Act of 1883 ? — It is a matter which I have not specially attended to or looked after ; but I have been under the im- pression that for the carrying out of those pro- visions with regard to tramways, the co-operation of the localities was necessary, and that they were required to undertake certain responsi- bilities which they had rather an objection to. 28(>9. Still, if the localities perceived that it would be for their own interest to give a baronial guarantee, such as that which was required under the Act, do not you think that they would very readily do so ? — From what I know of the gen- erality of localities in Ireland, they would be disposed as far as they could to avoid giving any guarantee, or undertaking any I'esponsibility ; they would like very well to have the thing done for them. 2870. By private enterprise? — By private enterprise ; or, still better, by tlie State. 2871. But it is only in the event of their own railway failing that they come under tlie respon- sibility ? — Yes ; it is only under the condition of failure that the guarantee would come into operation ; but still the country gentlemen and farmers do not like it. 2872. Do you think it would be better if, instead of throwing the liability for the guarantee On the baronies, the liability should be extended over a wider area? — I think so, because the benetits of the project, if carried out, would not be at all limited to the individual barony. I think it would be much better to take either a county guarantee, or some lariier unit of respon- sibility. 2873. You are familiar, I suppose, with the Connemara district? — I have been frequently there. 2874. Do you know that a line, such as I have 0.98. Mr. Kewwy— continued, been dealing with, was projected between Galway and Clifden ? — Yes. 2875. It was proposed to throw the liability upon the three baronies which constitute Conne- mara ? — Yes. 2876. And that in the event of the railway failing, that would bring the rates to something like 4 s. Q d. in the £. upon one of the baronies, whereas if it wei'e extended over the who'e of the county it would not have amounted to more than 2^ d. in the £. ; do not you think it would be better to extend it over the whole of the county under such circumstances? — I think in some respects that would be an argument the other way, taking that particular locality, be- cause the county of Galway is so cut across by the large loughs of Corrib and Mask, that the western portion is almosL cut off from the eastern ; and the eastern portion, which is the most productive, M'ould certainly derive very little practical benefit by a railway from Galway to Clifden. 2877. Then j'our meaning would apparently be that the heaviest burden should be thrown upon localities that are least able to bear it ? — I would say it would be, as a general rule, fair to throw the responsibility upon the largest area that could be reasonably expected to benefit from the advantages; but in that particular case, owing to the peculiar geographical character of the county, that presumption could scarcely be expected, the Connemara district being unfortu- nately so isolated from the rest of the county. 2878. Then the result of the geographical position of Connemara will be, that it is to be condemned to perpetual poverty, owing to its separation and isolation from the other portions of Ireland ? — I would scarcely like to say that it was condemned to perpetual poverty, but it labours under that special disadvantage. 2879. Do not you think that in the case of a district like Connemara, which labours under natural disadvantage, it would be the duty of the State to come to its rescue ? — Certainly ; but it would be a question whether it would be the duty of the State to make another district, which was not to derive the advantage, bear a large proportion of the expense ; because if you laid a rate upon the county, three-fourths of the ex- pense in this case would be borne by localities which did not benefit by the making of the line. 2880. But in this case I would not for a moment contemplate tlie possibility of failure ; I would rather suggest that it would be possible to get contractors to construct the line from Clifden to Galway, and that it should operate successfully. As a general rule, do not you think that instead of throwing the total liability upon the small districts, the area should be ex- tended as much as possible?— I certainly think that. 2881. I believe there are only two or three railways in course of construction at the present time under the Tramways and Public Companies Act of 1883 ? — There is a very small number. 2882. You have not perhaps paid enough attention to the subject to be able to say why it is that the facilities afforded by the Tramways and Public Companies Act of 1883 have not T been 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 5 June 1885.] Sii- E. Kane, ll,d. \^Coiitiimed. Mr. Kenny — continued, been taken advantage of to a larger extent than they have? — 1 have not given special attention to the subject, but my general impression from what I saw of the matter in the newspapers, and so on, is, that although one may not contemplate the failure of such an undertaking ; but rather, one must certainly hope that they would succeed, still I can quite understand the owners of pro- perty in the locality not being quite so sanguine, and being apprehensive of loading themselves with an amount of responsibility which, in the present condition of property in Ireland, might turn out to be very heavy. 2883. Then do I understand you are of opinion that in many districts it is quite possible that it is owing to the objection of the owners of pro- perty in those districts to the scheme being carried out, tliat the Tramway Act has been a failure ? — That is my impression. 2884. Are you aware that some of the railway companies of Ireland have acquired the owner- ship of several of the canals ? — I only know of the one, of the Midland Great Western Kail- way of Ireland having acquired the ownership of the Royai Canal ; but, subject to the condition of maintaining it in a state for the continuance of the traffic. 2885. But not being in any way bound as to the rates they should charge ? — I believe not. 2886. So that it virtually amounts to a mono- poly of the carrying trade between Dublin and the west of Ireland, in the Lands of that railway company ? — It may. 2887. Are you not of opinion that it acts preju- dicially to the public interest that railways should be allowed to monopolise the means of conveyance between Dublin and other parts of Ireland? — Cer- tainly. I think that those powers given to railway companies originally, were quite excessive, and in the case of the Midland Railway Company and the Royal Canal, I happen to know that at the time when the arrangement was first made, it was with a great deal of difficulty that even so much was preserved as to secure the maintenance of the canal. The first idea was to fill in the canal and to make the railway upon the bed of the canal, and to abolish the canal altogether as far as M ul- lingar; but, however, some persons, who were a little more long-sighted than others, protested very strongly against that, and against putting such power into the hands of the railway com- pany ; and the railway company were bound to make their line along the sides of the canal, and to leave the c