Ex Libris 
 C. K. OGDEN 
 
 THE 
 
 its 0f (Shtglartir, 
 
 ON 
 CHURCH P OLITI CS. 
 
 MADAM BRITANNIA, MOTHER CHURCH, 
 AND THE OLD LADY IN THREADNEEDLE STREET. 
 
 REV. S. KETTLEWELL, M.A. 
 
 Author of "The Rights and Liberties of the Church, 
 " The Reformation in Ireland," etc. 
 
 LONDON : 
 
 W. SKEFFINGTON, 163, PICCADILLY; 
 SIMPKIN, MARSHALL, & Co. 
 
 1874.
 
 Qy UNIVERSITY OF 
 
 OA SANTA BARBARA 
 
 5157 
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 Matters concerning the interests of the Church are 
 now so freely discussed in public, and will probably, 
 sooner or later, come to the front in our Legislative 
 Assemblies that more thorough and fuller information 
 seems called for respecting them than can be given in 
 the small compass of a short paper or article. Some- 
 thing more than a general view, or discussion of these 
 matters is needed. And there are two or three things, 
 at the present time, which make it the more important 
 to give a somewhat exact and evidential account of 
 them. These are, the more extended and better Educa- 
 tion which is given to the people the great extension 
 of the Franchise of late years and the recent attempts 
 which have been made to poison the Public mind 
 against the Church and her interests. 
 
 Although a certain number of persons will still be 
 led away by the clap-trap oratory of designing men, 
 and be misled by the false or distorted views and state- 
 ments of unscrupulous zealots, who begrudge the 
 Church her position and possessions, the number of 
 persons who will begin to think, and determine, and
 
 IV PREFACE. 
 
 act for themselves in England will increase more and 
 more. Henca appears the necessity of promptly 
 exposing and refuting the fallacies of those who would 
 impose upon their credulity, and of affording them every 
 opportunity of judging for themselves about the truth, 
 and fairness, and justice, of the matters under discus- 
 sion ; BO that they may themselves in some degree decide 
 upon the merits of them, rather than take the ipse 
 dixit, or follow the lead, of some wily politician or 
 sectarian, who has not himself, it may be, looked fully 
 or accurately into these questions, and but imperfectly 
 understands their bearing upon the public welfare. 
 
 Great efforts, then, should be made at the present 
 time to inform the Public mind on these points, by a 
 plain and faithful account of such matters respecting 
 the interests of the Church which are called in 
 question, by shewing the justice of her cause, the 
 reason for upholding t her, and by giving sufficient 
 evidence as to the truth and fairness of what has been 
 advanced in her behalf. And we doubt not but that 
 these efforts will bear fruit, and, that in the majority of 
 cases where the people have the opportunity of fully 
 considering these questions for themselves, a right 
 decision will be come to in favour of the Church. 
 The Church has nothing to fear, but will gain much 
 by the spread of information, and the search after 
 truth in things that concern her welfare. This is the
 
 PREFACE. V 
 
 object of the following pages. Especial attention has 
 been given to shew that the Revenues of the Church, 
 of which certain persons are anxious to deprive her } 
 are the accumulations of the Voluntary system which 
 has existed for ages past in the Church. And whilst 
 urging forward a resolute and continued defence of 
 the Church, exposing and refuting the errors and 
 misrepresentations of her adversaries as we have gone 
 along we have advocated as of supreme moment, 
 the desirability of the Church having the free exercise 
 of her Eights, as other religious Bodies have. The 
 union of Church and State must still be maintained, 
 but in a different, though not less efficient manner. 
 This free exercise of Rights by the Church whilst in 
 entire Union with the State we have made a point of 
 contending for in these pages, as well as elsewhere, as 
 both essentially practical and advantageous to both 
 Church and State, and as more in keeping with the 
 spirit and principles of civil and religious Liberty, 
 and of the British Constitution, than the withholding 
 of them. 
 
 Whilst the State or Government should courageously 
 and honestly protect the property of the Church from 
 waste or robbery, be it either from within or from 
 without, we maintain that it should give every facility 
 to the exercise of her just Rights as can be consistent 
 with good order and her real welfare ; not cutting her
 
 VI PREFACE. 
 
 adrift as in the case of the Church of Ireland, but still 
 retaining a supreme control over her as a temporal 
 ruler; a control to be carefully and lawfully exercised 
 in cases of need; guiding and assisting her meanwhile 
 to a proper and efficient exercise of her Rights. 
 
 A popular form of setting forth these matters has 
 been adopted, as most calculated to engage the gener- 
 ality of minds, and enable them more easily to grasp 
 and comprehend them. Respecting the personages who 
 are supposed to hold conversation together, Mother 
 Church is, of course, to represent the Church of 
 England and speaking on her behalf, the Old Lady 
 from Threadneedle Street, her friend, as the representa- 
 tive of the wealth and property of the Kingdom, and 
 Madam Britannia as the representative of temporal 
 power and authority. John Bull is brought in, but 
 not prominently, as speaking for the people. 
 
 HEMEL HEMPSTEAD, 
 1874.
 
 CONTENTS OF PARTS. 
 I. 
 
 Mother Church's trouble. The occasion of her visit to the Old 
 Lady in Threadnee<lle Street. The design to rob the Church of 
 her possessions talked over. The Advice of the Lady in Thread- 
 needle Street. An Anecdote of her early history. The Defence 
 of the Church must be resolute and thorough. Disendowment 
 disastrous How the poor would suffer most. The wide-spread 
 value of the Church's System. The State alone not able to 
 carry it out. Danger of suffering the people to be deluded. 
 They should be kept well informed of the truth respecting 
 Church affairs. The Restoration of the Rights and Liberties of 
 the Church necessary for her proper defence. How this is to be 
 attained. An interview with Madam Britannia suggested. 
 
 IT. 
 
 Mother Church's visit to Madam Britannia, Mr. Bull also intro- 
 duced. Both persons interested in averting the threatened 
 spoliation of the Church. Mr. Bull forewarned of the Stratagem 
 to mislead him. Church property not National property apart 
 from the Church. A short sketch of the way in which the 
 Property of the Church was acquired and secured to her. The 
 sad results that would arise from spoliation. The Church has a 
 right to be fairly dealt with in all Constitutional changes. She 
 should be put into the way of managing her own affairs, and 
 governing herself. Eight Particulars thereof enumerated. How 
 the Supremacy of the Crown and Civil authority must still be 
 upheld. The creation of more Dioceses advocated. All reason- 
 able demands should be persevered in. 
 
 III. 
 
 All the Three Ladies meet in Conference. Redress is open to all in 
 the State, but not for imaginary grievances to the hurt of 
 others. Further Misrepresentations about Church Property con-
 
 CONTENTS. V1U 
 
 futed. Church Property not given by the Nation. How it can 
 never be National Property except through the ministrations of 
 the Church. It cannot be alienated by Parliament without vio- 
 lating the first principles of right and justice. - Civil Enact- 
 ments were made to uphold the just claims of the Church. Pay- 
 ments are to be enforced by Luw, as any other claims, because 
 justly due. -The Fallacy of some Popular notions. The Church 
 of England does not include the whole of the People. Nor is it 
 confined only to the Clergy, but includes the Lay-members. Th 
 design of Corporations Sole and Aggregate to preserve the 
 property in perpetuity to the Church. 
 
 IV. 
 
 Some objections of the enemies of the Church to her retaining 
 her Endowments considered and refuted. The Church's Title 
 to property compared with other Titles. The Sources from 
 which she obtains Proofs of her Title. Terriers Parochial and 
 Diooe-ian Registers, as well as by Prescription and Ancient 
 Documents. Endowments originated in Voluntary gifts. Evi- 
 dences from "Newcourt's Repertorium." Old Records of Gifts 
 to the Church. The Monasteries in Anglo-Saxon times the 
 Homes of the Evangelizing Clergy, and under the Bishops.- 
 Evidence from the Doomsday- Book to the Church's owning 
 much property. Also from a letter of William the Conqueror. - 
 A Deed of Gift to Westminster Abbey, an example of a mul- 
 tiplicity of other gifts. The Church of England in no wise 
 indebted to the Church of Rome for her Endowments. - The 
 Ancient Sees and Monasteries endowed before the Church of 
 Rome gained her great power in this Country. The Church 
 of Rome fleeced the Church of England. 
 
 V. 
 
 The Right of the Church to Titha considered. How doubts 
 about this have been raised by the enemies of the Church. - 
 Their Objections and Errors considered and refuted. Misrep- 
 resentations of Mr. Miall. His indebtedness to Seldeu and 
 others, whose words he often perverts. -Some account of 
 Selden's work on Tithes. Mr. Miall's statement that Three- 
 fourths of the Parochial Endowments of the Church were
 
 IX CONTENTS. 
 
 given by Act of Parliament in Edward VI.'s reign proved to 
 be utterly false. This was a time when the Church was 
 largely fleeced.- How Errors and Misrepresentations are pro- 
 pagated. The History of Tithes given. Ethelwulf's Charter 
 considered. Off a's Law. Tithes firmly settled by the Laws of 
 the Realm. Proofs of Tithes being due to the Church before 
 these Laws were made. How the Church became eutitled to 
 them. The Right of the Church to them proved. 
 
 VI. 
 
 Collateral Evidence relative to the voluntary origin of Tithes, in 
 the Unequal size of Parishes and the .Amount of Tithes, and 
 in the existence of Private Patronage. Affirmed by Soames 
 and Selden. Learislative enactments respecting Tithes in An- 
 glo-Saxon times, at the Norman Conqaest and afterwards, 
 and at the Reformation and afterwards. A summing up of 
 the arguments and evidences in favour of the Right of the 
 Church to Tithes. Dissenters would be zoalous upholders of 
 the Tithes, did they belong to them.- -See what the Puritans 
 did. Testimony of honest Dissenters to the Church's Right 
 to them. Recent Church Endowments. - Loose notions as to 
 their security condemned. --The amount of Voluntary Contri- 
 butions in the Church very large. Security of all Endowments 
 necessary to encourage liberal gifts. The Duty of the State to 
 sec'ire the Church's Right to her property. How the State 
 neglects its duty, and abuses its power if it does not. - The 
 propor Function of the State as to the Rights of all subjects. 
 The various Rights of the Church should be freely exercised, 
 even whilst in Union with the State ; being more consistent with 
 the Spirit and Principles of the British Constitution. How 
 the Scandal of Selling Church Livings may be remedied.
 
 THE THREE VENERABLE LADIES OF 
 
 1-.NGLAND, ON MATTERS CONCERNING 
 
 CHURCH AND STATE, 
 
 MOTHER CHURCH had been much annoyed of late, 
 and her usual equanimity had been greatly dis- 
 turbed by the inroads which had been made upon, 
 what she had regarded as, her prerogatives, and 
 by the rumour of attempts that would be made 
 to deprive her of her property. Generally she 
 pursued the even tenor of her way, quietly 
 minding her own duties, and leaving other people 
 to attend to theirs. She had been more active 
 too of late getting through much more work, 
 and being more successful in her operations tlian 
 usual; but other people would not let her alone, 
 they would always be meddling with her affairs. 
 And whether they did not like to see her so busy, 
 and were jealous and envious of her prosperity 
 or no, there had been latterly a number of rest- 
 less, dissatisfied persons, going about the country, 
 
 B
 
 4 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 stirring up men's minds against her. They said 
 they wanted to do her good ; to give her more 
 liberty, and help her to better herself; but she 
 knew they meant no good in the end : that their 
 shew of good-will was but a pretence to deceive 
 people ; that their real design was to do her harm, 
 and to raise up such an agitation in the country 
 about her, that Parliament might be ' induced, 
 under the cover of granting her more freedom, 
 to despoil her of her possessions, and turn her 
 out into the world as a pauper, to beg for her 
 living. This of course caused her no little un- 
 easiness ; and she determined to consult an old 
 friend, with whom she had formerly been intimate, 
 who was a shrewd observer, and knew the ways 
 of the world better than she did ; and so talk 
 the matter over with her. 
 
 Now, this friend, to whose place Mother Church 
 made her way, was an old Lady living in Thread- 
 needle Street. And on this particular morning 
 the Lady had been busy as usual, seeing the heads 
 of the different departments of her large estab- 
 lishment ; consulting with some about matters 
 which required consideration, and giving various 
 orders to others. And now, having settled her 
 affairs, and arranged her sundiy papers, she had
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 5 
 
 reseated herself at her desk-table, and had just 
 re-adjusted her spectacles ; and was preparing 
 herself to enjoy a few quiet moments of retro- 
 spection and prospection ; for she liked calmly 
 to consider the steps she had taken, that they 
 were satisfactory ; and still more so, to look a 
 little a-head of things, to provide against con- 
 tingencies ; and to see what line of conduct she 
 must take, and what orders she must give for the 
 future so as to advantage her establishment. She 
 had just re-seated herself, I say, and re-adjusted 
 her spectacles, when one of her liveried servants 
 came in, and announced that the venerable Mother 
 Church requested the favour of a few moments 
 conversation with her. "Show her in John, by 
 all means," was the order given to the servant, 
 " and say, I shall be glad to receive her." But 
 to herself, she said, "What can be the matter 
 now, with my dear old friend, for it is very rarely 
 she comes here to see me." 
 
 Mother Church enters,' duly preceded by the 
 servant. "My dear old friend," says the old Lady 
 of Threadneedle Street, rising to receive her visitor, 
 " I am glad to see you, pray be sealed." 
 
 " Thank you," replies the venerable lady, who 
 had just entered, " it is very kind of you to see
 
 6 THE THREB VENERABLE 
 
 me. I do not want any pecuniary aid, but, know- 
 ing you to be better versed in the ways of the 
 world than myself, I have come to consult you 
 about matters which have troubled me of late." 
 
 " Yes," replies the lady of Threadneedle Street, 
 ' I have heard of the annoyances you have had, 
 for I still take a deep interest in your welfare, 
 and have learnt that there is much secret plotting 
 going on among a number of disaffected persons, 
 who, envious of your position, want to injure you 
 and cripple your resources." 
 
 "I am glad," replied her visitor, "that you know 
 something of what has happened, and the wicked 
 design that these people have in hand, as it will 
 spare me the trouble of reciting to you my present 
 position as regards these matters." 
 
 "0 yes," replied the Lady of Threadneedle Street, 
 " I generally keep my eyes wide open, and learn 
 much of what concerns my neighbours, as well 
 as what affects myself, though I rarely, like your- 
 self, meddle with matters that do not immediately 
 concern me." 
 
 "That is commendable as a general rule," 
 replied her visitor, "but you must know as 
 well as myself, or better, that it is necessary to 
 take active steps to prevent mischief, and to guard
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 7 
 
 against the attacks of cunning and designing men; 
 for, if you knew that there were a number of men 
 fully bent upon getting to some of your treasures 
 to carry them off, and were watching continually 
 for some favourable opportunity to effect their 
 purpose, would you not take all necessary pre- 
 cautions beforehand, and give your servants charge 
 to be on their guard, and prevent, by every pos- 
 sible means, any such design been carried out to 
 plunder you of your property ?" 
 
 " Certainly," replies the other. 
 
 Mother Church continues, " Nor would you 
 listen to the foolish and crafty sentiments that 
 some men would utter, that, if you had some of 
 your treasures taken away, you would be lightened 
 of your burdens, and of some of the anxiety 
 which you must necessarily have in looking after 
 so much ; or, that you would then, when lightened 
 of so much, be much freer and be better able to 
 adapt yourself to the requirements of the age, 
 than in going on, as they would say, in one hum- 
 drum, antiquated way. You would at once see 
 that there was a design in these words, and would 
 not for a moment be deluded by them. It would 
 not be mere stuff and nonsense, but something 
 worse ; and you would justly suspect the persons 
 of some sinister design in what they said."
 
 8 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 " Certainly," replied the Lady in Threadneedle 
 Street. " Nor would I hold any parley or inter- 
 course with such men, but order my servant to 
 shew them out of the door ; for it would not re- 
 quire a second thought with me, to see that these 
 men had some nefarious design in hand. Besides, 
 honest men have enough to do in looking after 
 their own affairs ; and I have generally found, one 
 of two things happen with men that begin thus 
 to meddle with other people's affairs ; either they 
 are neglecting their own affairs, which are perhaps 
 going to ruin, or they mean to purport some wrong ; 
 and my servants have special instructions to mark 
 these men and avoid having any dealings with 
 them ; no, not even to hold any argument with 
 them, for there is no good in it. 
 
 " But what you have just said, reminds me of 
 what happened to me in my earlier days, the 
 account of which has passed out of the remem- 
 brance of most men, I suppose. It sets forth the 
 very opposite example to that which you have 
 named, for it shows how an honest man will act, 
 even when the power happens accidentally to fall 
 into his own hands of enriching himself by the 
 goods of another. Shall I relate the story to you?" 
 
 " Mother Church : " 0, yes ! I shall be pleased 
 to hear it."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street continued, " I 
 was one day seated at my desk, engaged in my 
 ordinary duties, when my servant brought in a 
 letter, which had been left at the door. On open- 
 ing it, I found it to be an anonymous one ; but it 
 stated what was enough to alarm one thoroughly ; 
 for the writer wished me to know, that he could 
 at any time when he liked, by day or night, enter 
 the strong-room where I kept all my gold and 
 treasures ; and bid me look to the security of it. 
 I pondered long over the letter, which was roughly 
 written ; and I had the strong-room and the iron 
 doors belonging to it, thoroughly examined, and 
 could not possibly see by what means any one 
 could enter ; and at last, I came to the conclusion 
 that it was a hoax, to alarm me unnecessarily ; so I 
 began to make light -of the matter, especially as 
 nothing transpired, and no attempt was made to 
 rob me. But two or three weeks after this, I got 
 another anonymous letter, evidently from the 
 same individual, assuring me, that what he had 
 stated in his previous letter was true, and that he 
 was willing to satisfy me, as to the truth of what 
 he had said. And he went on to state, that if I 
 would be in the strong-room at twelve o'clock at 
 night, on a certain night named, he would come
 
 10 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 and then shew me how the strong-room could be 
 entered. You may be sure that I began then to 
 regard the matter in a serious light ; and was 
 determined to see if the writer would make good 
 his words ; so I ordered some of my servants to be 
 ready with lanterns and weapons on the night in 
 question ; and a little before twelve at night, we 
 descended to the strong-room ; and there we re- 
 mained awhile as still and silent as death, so that 
 we could hear a pin fall ; at last we heard a slight 
 noise, not very far off; then, the clock from the 
 Cathedral, not far distant, boomed out the hour of 
 midnight ; as soon as it had ceased, we all listened 
 again attentively and, sure enough, there was the 
 noise again, more clearly heard and nearer at hand 
 than before : we all began to feel uneasy, and to 
 stand on our guard, not knowing what might 
 happen, or how the individual might enter, or what 
 force he might bring with him and perhaps over-, 
 power us. Then came the noise immediately 
 under the room where we were ; there was evi- 
 dently some one moving about. Soon we began to 
 see one of the flags moving ; then it was gradually 
 raised up, and a man, in working-day clothes, put 
 his head through, and said in some such words as 
 these, ' Now, you find me as good as my word.'
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 11 
 
 He then related to me how he had been working 
 in one of the sewers, which had needed repairing, 
 that he had come up some distance, and conjectur- 
 ing that he might not be far from my place, which 
 was of some importance even then, he began 
 looking about ; and seeing some flags, he raised 
 one of them up, and found himself where he now 
 was. At first, he told me, he was frightened at 
 the sight of the gold and treasures that were spread 
 around him, and he therefore let down the stone 
 safely in its old place, so that it might appear as if 
 nothing had been disturbed, and determined to let 
 me know of the insecurity of the place. And he 
 subsequently took the steps I have named to make 
 me aware of it. You may rest satisfied that I 
 gladly and amply rewarded the man for his honesty, 
 and took effective means to secure my property for 
 the future. 
 
 " But now I would remark, that the men of 
 whom you speak, are secretly working underground, 
 as it were, purposely, to find out a way to get at 
 your property, to carry it off. They have no 
 honest design, no honesty at heart, like the man 
 I have spoken about, who felt frightened at 
 touching what did not belong him, even fright- 
 ened at the sight and temptation that had come
 
 12 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 in his way ; and could not rest until he had taken 
 means to prevent himself, or any one else, doing 
 wrong. 
 
 " There are two things that it appears to me these 
 men, who are troubling you, are wanting in, and 
 they are these, they want the broad principle of 
 truth, and the broad principle of honesty. They 
 do not scruple to make false statements, and mis- 
 represent matters ; and they have this further 
 object in view to take from you, what belongs 
 to you, just as much as my property belongs to 
 me. I know that I should make a good stand for 
 my own, and use every possible means, not to be 
 unfairly or wrongfully deprived of it. And my 
 dear old friend, allow me to say, that, though you 
 like to live in peace, and to go on quietly, doing 
 your duty in life and attending to your own busi- 
 ness, yet it is nevertheless your business to pro- 
 tect, and even valiantly to stand up for your own, 
 by every lawful means, if needs be, rather than 
 let it be wrested from you by evil men ; it is a 
 duty you have to perform, however unpleasant 
 it may be, to look well after the substance you 
 possess, for your own well-being, and for your 
 children's sake, and the servants you employ in 
 various parts. It is for their welfare you must
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 13 
 
 think, for if you have not the means to pay your 
 servants, they will get other places, for, do not 
 think me intruding to quote Scripture before you, 
 we must remember that ' the labourer is worthy 
 of his hire :' and as a general rule, for men are 
 human, they will carry their services to the best 
 market, and make the most of the gifts God 
 bestows upon them ; here and there you will find 
 some from higher motives serving you faithfully 
 for very little ; but as a general rule, I say, you 
 must look for their doing the best they can for 
 themselves in a worldly point of view ; and if you 
 have not the means of giving your servants a 
 proper remuneration for their services, one of two 
 things will happen : you will either have materially 
 to lessen the number of them, or to employ less 
 able men : but either way your children and the 
 people you succour, will suffer. And this, I regard 
 as doubly disastrous. No one has been a better 
 friend to the poor than yourself, in many ways ; 
 you have been foremost in promoting the educa- 
 tion of their children, and made great sacrifices to 
 effect this ; whilst others buttoned up their pockets, 
 and now want to undo your work ; besides this, 
 you have ever been a friend to the poor and needy 
 in their hour of distress; for though labouring
 
 14 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 men may keep aloof from you a little, when strong 
 and able to earn wages, yet when sickness and 
 misfortune comes, 1 know to whom they will first 
 turn ; and it will be very sad for them if you 
 should be compelled to leave them uncared for, in 
 any less degree than now. And then again, it will 
 be a great misfortune if you are unable to provide 
 able and well-educated men to instruct the people 
 of the land, or have to depend upon less able and 
 less educated men to do this, who will require 
 less for their services; I must say, I view tin's 
 state of things to which you may be driven, by 
 the covert efforts of designing men, with some 
 consternation. The poor throughout the land will 
 necessarily, to a great extent, lose their most con- 
 stant friend, and the rising generation will be less 
 likely to attend to the instructions of men not 
 efficiently fitted for their work. There is already 
 a dislike to religious teaching springing up, and 
 it will, then, increase still more. There will indeed 
 be a decadence in religion; more bigotry and 
 strife ; more disaffection and restlessness in the 
 country ; and further, if this confiscation of your 
 property takes place, it will, in an effectual manner, 
 put a check, in a large degree, to the dedication of 
 any more property to the purposes of religion and
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 15 
 
 charity ; just as it was after confiscation of church 
 property at the Keformation ; no one will be dis- 
 posed to leave anything to the Church, or for the 
 benefit of the poor, if in fifty years time, or even 
 longer, it may be ruthlessly taken away, or diverted 
 from the purpose for which it was left." 
 
 Mother Church : " Moreover, if you consider 
 what those in other professions, in business, or 
 in the civil service get, I do not think that, as a 
 whole, my servants are extravagantly paid. I 
 allow that there are exceptional cases where the 
 pay seems to exceed the work, and in such cases 
 I am as anxious as any prudent reformers may 
 be to have an alteration made, so that those who 
 have more work may be better paid than some 
 of them are. Bat regarding the service of the 
 church in the aggregate, I cannot but feel that 
 my servants are underpaid if anything ; but what 
 do you say ?" 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle "Street : " I quite 
 think so too ; and I have been of this opinion 
 for some time. And viewing it in the light of a 
 political economist I do not think that the State, 
 or any other body, could bring such an amount of 
 moral and meliorating influences and kindly feel- 
 ing, as well as kindly action, to bear upon the
 
 16 THE TIIREK VENERABLE 
 
 country throughout, as you do for the like sum of 
 money that you give to your servants. It is a 
 great matter to have an educated gentleman 
 planted in all parts of the country, forming, in 
 numerous instances the only, though a small, 
 centre of enlightenment, civilization, and useful- 
 ness ; a person also to whom the poor may re- 
 sort, as to a friend, in all cases of need. It helps 
 in a material manner to keep the bands of society 
 together, and whilst preventing the poor from 
 lapsing into heathenism, infidelity, and barbarism, 
 this service of yours tends to draw together more 
 the different classes of society, and make them 
 more loyal subjects and better members of society. 
 And, if your services are to be withdrawn, or in 
 anywise decreased or impaired, we shall, I am 
 pretty certain, need a larger increase of prisons 
 and police-officers, or other kinds of persons for 
 the restraint of evil doers ; for the tendency of 
 man is to deteriorate, and become evil, when left 
 to himself, without any correcting or elevating 
 associations and influences. And certainly of the 
 two, there is no question that your services should 
 be preferred to that of relieving officers, the police, 
 and the infliction of punishments. Your service 
 is the producing cause of much happiness, good
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 17 
 
 will, and moral strength, throughout the country, 
 which is of the greatest value to the nation. For 
 besides its being needful that you should have 
 educated men in your service, it is not the bare 
 routine of labour they perform which tells, but 
 there is a large amount of love and ardour, of 
 extra labour in the discharge of their necessary 
 duties, and of sympathy with others brought in, 
 which mere money cannot purchase. Leaving 
 then, the right which you have to your property 
 as a matter of justice out of the question at 
 present, I do not think the State could inaugurate 
 and carry out such a useful and valuable service 
 for the whole nation, and especially for the poorer 
 classes of society, for the sum of money you do. 
 It would, therefore, be a most disastrous event 
 for the country were Parliament to consent to 
 deprive you of your means and substance, which 
 is barely sufficient, as I think also, to carry on 
 your important ministrations."* 
 
 * Even tho Times holds that " if Parliament should ever come 
 to think perfect equality in spiritual things worth any cost, it will 
 probably have to pay a good deal for it, that is, to sacrifice much 
 good service, the place of which it may not be easy to supply. 
 There are no functionaries in the whole world so localised, so hand- 
 tied, so subordinated, and so placed at the mercy of everybody 
 about them as the parochial clergy of England. Even apart from 
 the general scantiness of their incomes and the utter absence of
 
 18 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 To which her visitor replied, "I am well pleased 
 to hear you speak as you do, as it shews me that 
 you take a warm interest in what so intimately 
 concerns me, and in the welfare of your neigh- 
 bours and your poor brethren. But, there is one 
 thing I much fear, and the thought of it grieves 
 me, and that is, that the poor or labouring class, 
 whose interest I have so long had at heart, and 
 the evidence of which is not wanting to them, 
 will be deluded by these plotters and agitators, 
 
 what are called prospects, very few Dissenting ministers of educa- 
 tion and teaching would submit to the sentence of immobility pro- 
 nounced on the clergyman who once takes a moderate living. He 
 may have distinguished himself at school and university, and be a 
 scholar, a divine, a man of general information and varied capacity, 
 but there he is generally a fixture for life. The day of his induc- 
 tion he may read over his head that there is no hope for him but in 
 heaven. Fortunate or unfortunate, he will have few minds indeed 
 with which he can hold converse, unless it be on spiritual things. 
 He has to visit the sick and the aged regularly, to cheer the des- 
 ponding and low-spirited, to superintend and help at the school, to 
 watch, to warn, to chide, and, if possible, to reform. He has to 
 bear patiently with all sorts of follies and absurdities. He has to 
 make up quarrels, and restrain the savageness of untutored minds. 
 There are thousands of such men now in the service of the Church 
 of England or of the State, as Mr. M tail's friends would put it 
 in all corners of this land, drowned in fens, hidden in wolds, buried 
 under interminable hedgerows, banished into salt marshes, without 
 the least chance of ever changing their {tosition, should they 
 venture to indulge in so wild a dream. Now, is all this nothing ? 
 Is it not worth a notice, a passing allusion, or a slight qualification 
 of the general tone of Nonconformist censure ? Truth requires 
 it ; and, even where the cause is good and the controversy hot, 
 truth still ia the best guide." Vide October 3, 1872.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 17 
 
 and induced to turn against me. I trust, however 
 that the better education, which they have had of 
 late years, will enable them to think for them- 
 selves and to see things as they really are, and 
 not to be hood- winked by crafty men, ' who 
 lie in wait to deceive.' These men have 
 thrown out taunting words to depreciate, and 
 even give a wrong colour to, my charitable efforts 
 for the poor, so as to beguile the labouring man, 
 till he almost thinks that my servants are not 
 his friends, and that by helping in the unholy 
 work of despoiling the church he will, somehow 
 or other, have a bank of his own to fly to, in 
 case of need. Now you, dear Madam, know well, 
 that ' the poor will never cease out of the land,' 
 however much their wages be raised ; and that 
 opportunities of doing them good, when we will, 
 shall never cease also ; for, it must be remembered 
 that the labourers of our land have, in most cases, 
 little opportunity of laying anything by against 
 what is called ' a rainy day ;' and have conse- 
 quently little to fall back upon when misfortune 
 or sickness, some bodily infirmity, or old age, 
 comes upon them ; and it is then that they most 
 need a little help, and a kind, comforting word. 
 Besides, our Heavenly Lord and Master has 
 
 c
 
 18 THE TUliKK VKNERABLE 
 
 bidden us to care for them, and speak words of 
 comfort to them ; and it is hard to have our good 
 misrepresented as evil, and to think that the men 
 who, of all others may find their need of my 
 ministrations, may be led to give their support 
 to those men who are endeavouring to undermine 
 my position." 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street took up the 
 conversation, and said, " I must confess I feel for 
 you in this matter, but I trust the labouring class 
 of our land will have the good sense to see, in 
 what direction their own interests ultimately lie : 
 for the great hardship and cruelty of the measure, 
 if ever it is brought about, of despoiling you of 
 your property, will fall, heaviest of all, upon the 
 common people of England, the great body of 
 whom, these plotters and agitators would make 
 use of in gaining their object; in which they them- 
 selves, I can see, design to be the greatest gainers, 
 though they don't want the people to think so. 
 The upper and middle classes of society can take 
 care of themselves, if such a confiscation of your 
 property comes about ; and even your present 
 servants, your Bishops and Clergy, will notsuffer 
 any pecuniary loss, for according to Parliamentary 
 usage, their life interest will be secured to them.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 19 
 
 It is, I see well enough, the great body of the 
 working people of England and their children after 
 them, who will in the end suffer most, if this 
 spoliation is brought about. The working people 
 of our land have become a great power ; and the 
 work of spoliation cannot be done without their 
 aid ; and, if ever they become so foolish and 
 blinded, as to give this aid, they will bitterly rue 
 it ; for if the time ever comes, when this work of 
 confiscation takes place, the labouring class will 
 see, to their dismay, that they have been injuring 
 themselves most of all, and that they have been 
 led to do this by the misrepresentations, and delu- 
 sive words of those who have their own ends and 
 purposes to serve. Like the powerful eagle, which 
 was shot by the archer, and is said, in the fable, 
 to have beheld, in the arrow that struck her, its 
 own feathers, which served to guide the deadly 
 weapon to its own breast ; or, like the tree which 
 was felled by the woodman, and, in fabled words, 
 is said to have beheld, in the helve of the wood- 
 man's axe, which enabled him to effect its down- 
 fall, a branch of its own, so will the labouring 
 class of England behold, when too late, that from 
 among themselves have been drawn the very power 
 and aid that has wrought them so much harm and 
 loss."
 
 20 THE TIIREB VENERABLE 
 
 Her visitor again replied, " I sincerely trust 
 such a disaster may be averted, for it will grieve 
 me to the quick to see the poor suffering and not 
 be able to give them such succour or consolation 
 as I have been wont to do, when they need it ; 
 and be obliged to employ an inferior class of men 
 in general to minister in God's service, and to 
 preach in my" pulpits. These things I must labour 
 to avert by all possible means, and no efforts of 
 mine shall b wanting to do this. I have already 
 given private instruction to my servants, and the 
 several members of my family in the most im- 
 portant stations where they have been placed, to 
 do all they can to counteract the evil designs of 
 these plotters and agitators ; and defence associa- 
 tions have been formed in various parts of the 
 country, with good effect ; so you see I have not 
 been idle. But now tell me what you think I 
 may do more to guard against the evil which is 
 threatened : how. would you advise me to act ?" 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street answered : " I 
 was pleased to know, even before you told me, 
 that you were up and on the alert, and I commend 
 you in what you have hitherto done ; and I would 
 say to you, 1st, Do not slack your hand in this 
 respect, but carry the work out further, into every
 
 LADIES OP ENGLAND. 21 
 
 part wherever your work lies ; rouse up the mem- 
 bers of your family in the country parishes, and 
 shew them that, as they will suffer most if a 
 confiscation of your property takes place, they 
 ought therefore to be most earnest in giving you 
 support, and resisting the designs of the enemy. 
 I do not think they are doing their duty in these 
 places, at this crisis ; nor preparing for the storm : 
 I know how difficult it is to move them in some 
 places, but you must give them no rest; but again, 
 and again, and again, call upon them to do their 
 duty at this time, in every instance where they 
 are backward. Through the agencies you have 
 already established you may be able to effect 
 much of this, so as to carry out your ramifications 
 of defence to all parts." 
 
 " This is one thing I should advise you to ; and 
 now I have a 2nd matter to mention to you, 
 and that is, that you strengthen your material 
 position more. You know that when a city is 
 besieged by an enemy, it is not only desirable to 
 be ready to repulse the enemy on all sides, where- 
 ever the assault is made ; it is not only desirable 
 to keep those within the city well affected, and in 
 good health, and well supplied with food ; but it 
 is essentially necessary, for a more permanent and
 
 22 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 effective defence, and that the inhabitants be 
 not taken by surprise in an unguarded moment, 
 that they should labour to restore the walls that 
 have been broken down, and to repair the breaches. 
 And I cannot but think that your position, my 
 worthy friend, would be materially strengthened, 
 were your people to make an effort to restore 
 your ancient foundations, and again obtain the 
 rights and liberties you once possessed : for, it is 
 just because you are without these, and because 
 they are suffered to remain thrown down, as if 
 they were of no value to you, that you are so 
 frequently a prey to the inroad of your enemies, 
 so that you can hardly help their depredations, 
 and can only with great difficulty defend your- 
 self." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes, I feel the force of what 
 you say, and I have often wished that I could 
 take the steps that you recommend ; but many of 
 my servants are opposed to such a measure, as it 
 might unsettle them ; too many love their ease, 
 and feel pledged to keep things as they are ; and 
 they fear that, in attempting to obtain a resto- 
 ration of our rights and liberties, the enemy 
 would make it the occasion of a more direct and 
 open assault upon us. But others of my servants,
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 23 
 
 / 
 
 and very many members of my family, are in 
 favour of such a movement; and I am the 
 more inclined to go with them ; for ' then I 
 should be better able to consult, and adopt 
 measures, with, them, with both clergy and 
 laity in lawful assemblies concerning the in- 
 terests of my establishment ; and we should 
 thereby be drawn together as one family more, 
 and have a greater and more general interest 
 created in its welfare : for it is absurd to think 
 that this will lead us to greater disunion than 
 there is at present. It is bad enough now. There 
 may be, and especially at first, some contention 
 among my servants for their own several peculiar 
 ways of thinking and acting. I do not see much 
 harm in this so long as they keep within bounds, 
 as there is a diversity of minds, and some latitude 
 of opinion allowed among us ; but I do think such 
 a restoration of rights and liberties would vastly 
 contribute to greater unity and devotion and in- 
 terest among us in the long run, as it would also 
 contribute to our material security, against the 
 inroads of our neighbouring foes. 
 
 " But there is this further difficulty that meets 
 me, that in my present relation or connection 
 with our great and powerful neighbour, Madam
 
 24 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Britannia, I am under restraint in these matters, 
 and I feel under an obligation not to attempt 
 them without leava" 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street : " But why 
 not ask leave of Madam Britannia ? She would 
 not take it ill of you ; and I am disposed to think, 
 that if you set your case fairly before her, you 
 would find her willing to listen favourably to your 
 statements. I know she has an unbounded res- 
 pect for you, and would be glad to improve your con- 
 dition, if it were clearly shown to her how she could 
 do this, consistently with the interests of others. 
 She feels too, I believe, that in granting privileges to 
 some of her dependents who differ from you, she 
 has somewhat injured you, and placed you, in more 
 ways than one, in a false and in a more disadvan- 
 tageous position than you formerly held, and would 
 be the more ready, on this account, to concede your 
 rights and liberties. But between ourselves, the 
 fact is, she requires matters to be urgently pressed 
 upon her ; not but that she herself would gladly 
 comply with your desires, at once, when you put 
 the necessity before her; but she has so many 
 different dependents to please, that she hesitates to 
 take any step, however desirable it may be, and 
 often holds back lest she should cause unpleasant-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 25 
 
 ness among them, until she finds that her factotum, 
 John Bull, is won over ; for she knows that he 
 has such an immense influence, that, whether right 
 or wrong, his opinion is almost law with her. I 
 should therefore advise you to seek an interview 
 with her, and ask as a favour, that her supporter, 
 John Bull, may be permitted to be present at the 
 interview, to hear your statements and require- 
 ments ;' by this means you will please both one 
 and the other, for they like to work together, with 
 one mind, and you will be more likely to gain 
 what you want." 
 
 Mother Church : " I thank you very much for 
 your excellent advice, and shall not fail to act 
 upon it ; but I am afraid that I have already tres- 
 passed too much upon your valuable time, so I 
 must wish you good morning." 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street : " There is 
 one thing, however, I must allude to for one 
 moment before you go, and that is, that you should 
 still be ready to render such special service and 
 co-operation to Madam Britannia as you have 
 hitherto given her, and which she will still 
 need, in carrying on her extensive opera- 
 tions ; for both yourself and I are greatly 
 benefitted by her wise rule and exercise
 
 26 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of authority. The special service and co-operation 
 I allude to, is that your Bishops, as hitherto, 
 should willingly give the aid of their counsel and 
 advice in Parliament; and that the nation may 
 through the functions of the Church approach God, 
 when it is desirable that her people should offer 
 up, as one man, special prayers, on thanksgiving 
 days, days of humiliation, and other like 
 national occasions. For if the English nation is 
 to retain its character as a Christian nation, it 
 must make a selection of some one body of 
 Christians, as its mouth-piece, through whom it 
 may address the Almighty. This indeed might be 
 done by selecting first one body of Christians and 
 then another; but this would be to introduce 
 another element of confusion and discord, and 
 only defeat the very design of such a change. 
 And since one must be chosen, none has a higher 
 claim than the Church of England, and none other 
 would be so acceptable to the people of England 
 in general, as the Church which from time imme- 
 morial has discharged this sacred duty. It is a 
 necessity of the nation, then, to preserve the 
 Church in this office.* 
 
 * Long will the Thanksgiving Day for the recovery of the Prince 
 of Wales be remembered, for the unity of feeling and national 
 enthusiasm that prevailed among all classes of society ; and it was
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 27 
 
 And on these grounds, I do not think that 
 Madam Britannia should yield any further to the 
 unceasing demands of those restless, unsatisfied, 
 and never-to-be-satisfied politicians, who would, 
 to gratify their own whims, though they call it a 
 matter of conscience, divest our Constitution 
 altogether of its religious character. She must con- 
 sider her own welfare and character a little, and 
 that of the rest of her people. Disestablishment 
 has been already carried out far enough, in all 
 necessary ways, so as practically to give all reli- 
 gious rights and liberties to those who dissent from 
 you, Madam.* And it is just because Disestablish- 
 ment has been thus practically effected in favour 
 of those who differ from you, and landed you in 
 such an equivocal and even hurtful situation, 
 that I think it the more needful that you should 
 obtain the He-establishment of your own rights 
 and liberties. Pardon me, if I say, that I think 
 
 an acceptable fact also to the people at large, that the Church 
 acted as the national mouth-piece in offering up the public 
 thanksgiving to God. 
 
 * The present Bishop of Carlisle, in a pastoral letter to his 
 clergy, said, " I cannot shut my eyes to the possibility of a great 
 change coming sooner or later over the status of the Church of 
 England : she may possibly cease to be an Established Church in. 
 some important particulars she may perhaps already be said to 
 have done so."
 
 28 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 you have been sadly remiss, in times past, from 
 one cause or another, in not looking after them ; 
 and I cannot but think, that you might greatly 
 recover them even yet, if you were a little more 
 pressing and persistent in urging your claims." 
 
 Mother Church : " You have indeed given me 
 matter for anxious thought, and yet you make 
 me more hopeful for the future ; and once more, 
 let me sincerely thank you before I go." 
 
 The Lady in Threadneedle Street: "I also 
 feel pleased, dear Madam, with the honour you 
 have done me, in asking my counsel, and listen- 
 ing to me; and, be assured, I shall not fail to 
 take a deep interest in what concerns your 
 welfare." 
 
 With this the two ladies rose, and bid adieu 
 to each other. Mother Church pursued her way 
 home cogitating upon the step she was about to 
 take, not forgetting to look upwards for help ; 
 and when seated in her own room, she at once 
 wrote to Madam Britannia, asking for an inter- 
 view, stating her object in a definite manner, and 
 requesting, as a favour, that their neighbour, 
 John Bull, might be permitted to be present. In 
 due course an answer was received, and a time 
 appointed for the interview.
 
 PAET II. 
 
 ON the day named, and at the appointed time, 
 Mother Church might have been seen winding 
 her way to the mansion where Madam Britannia 
 resided. On her arrival she was met at the door 
 by two liveried servants, and another dressed in 
 black with a wand in his hand, waiting ready to 
 conduct her to the apartment where his mistress 
 was waiting to receive her visitor. Mother Church 
 was one that would, from her very bearing, 
 command respect and attention, and it was now 
 duly paid her; for whilst there was something 
 noble and dignified in her aspect, there was also 
 a calm, yet kind benignity, that beamed from 
 her eyes, speaking of much love and sympathy. 
 Upon being ushered into the audience-chamber, 
 Madam Britannia rose and came forward, and 
 welcomed her guest with due courtesy. John 
 Bull also was present, and rose, making a pro- 
 found bow : he was dressed, as was usual on 
 great occasions ; and Mother Church, after ex- 
 changing greetings with Madam Britannia, went
 
 30 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 forwards to shake hands with him, and to thank 
 him for coming. 
 
 John Bull replied, that he himself had on many 
 occasions received much kindness from her, and 
 felt interested in her future welfare; and said, 
 further, that he felt honoured in being called to 
 give her counsel on the present occasion. 
 
 "Madam Britannia also joined in and said, "Yes, 
 we must all feel indebted to our venerable friend, 
 who has come to consult us about her affairs, for 
 her unvarying kindness and devoted attention to 
 our people ; and, indeed, we are so intimately con- 
 nected with her affairs, that what concerns her, 
 really concerns us, and her welfare is ours also." 
 
 Mother Church : " It is kind of you to say this, 
 and the more so, at the present time, when I need 
 your co-operation and support; for as you are 
 aware, I doubt not, there is a thoroughly well 
 organized scheme, or society formed to overthrow 
 the stability of the Church, or do me some material 
 injury, so as to cripple my resources, and compel 
 me largely to reduce my establishment, which ef 
 course, will prevent me attending to your people, 
 and . affording them that special service and 
 ministry of kindness, that they continually need. 
 What affects me does, therefore, as you say, con-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 31 
 
 cern yourself, and any material injury done to me, 
 by the persons I have alluded, will be an injury 
 to yourself also. I have therefore felt the more 
 emboldened to ask your counsel and support in 
 this matter." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Yes, I have heard of this 
 scheme, and have been somewhat troubled at it, 
 for I am afraid it boded no good towards you, my 
 excellent friend ; and moreover, it is their design, 
 I hear, to urge me to consent to this measure, for 
 they find themselves unable to effect their object 
 without my leave, and, of course, I am opposed to 
 it, and dislike the idea of such a thing." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes, this is their design, I 
 know. And the way in which they intend to' 
 proceed, to compass their purpose, will be this, I 
 believe ; to deceive our old friend here, by making 
 him think, that he will be conferring a benefit 
 upon me, by helping them forward in their pro- 
 ject ; and then having hoodwinked him, they will 
 press upon him from all sides, and give him no 
 peace, till he can persuade you to consent to the 
 measures they propose : for they know, that it will 
 only be at his urgent request, that you yourself, 
 Madam, will feel constrained, however unwillingly, 
 to consent to my undoing : a measure, as it has
 
 32 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 been said, that will be hurtful to yourself and to 
 our friend here, as well as to myself also. Thus, 
 sir," turning to Mr. Bull, " do they design to make 
 a cats-paw of you, if they can, an unwitting 
 instrument in furthering my downfall." 
 
 John Bull : " Not if I know it, Madam ! But 
 I am glad you have made me aware of this, that I 
 may be on my guard against this vile scheme ; for 
 I must confess, that there are some clever, crafty 
 people that do occasionally get to the blind side of 
 me, and bamboozle me at times, to my great an- 
 noyance, when I find it out, afterwards ; for I am 
 thus led to do, what I have sorely to regret having 
 dona I should therefore like to know something 
 more about this business, if you have no objec- 
 tions, lest I should be induced, without knowing 
 it, to do no little wrong and mischief." 
 
 Mother Church : " Most gladly will I speak to 
 you further upon the matter, for this was one 
 reason why I wished you to be present, at my 
 interview with Madam Britannia, that you might 
 be made aware of their design, and have your eyes 
 thoroughly opened to what you might expect from 
 them. You know the proverb, ' Forewarned, fore- 
 armed/ and I believe it will be so in your case : 
 for if there is anything you are noted for, it is
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 33 
 
 your honest straightforwardness ; and your hatred of 
 jnere sham and clap-trap ; your utter detestation 
 of all kinds of villainy and deception, and none 
 the less, when they come under the garb of friend- 
 ship or religion." 
 
 John Bull : " Well, madam, you are not far 
 from the mark there ; I do from my heart abomi- 
 nate these things, and cannot abide them, when I 
 find them out." 
 
 Mother Church : " Well now, I want to know, 
 if these people, to whom I allude, have not already 
 intimated so that it may get to your ears, their 
 intention to lay before Madam's Parliament a 
 skilfully worded proposal respecting myself, to 
 the effect, ' that the establishment by law of the 
 Church of England, ought not to be maintained ; ' 
 (they mention Scotland also, but I will speak only 
 of what concerns myself) and this, because as 
 they state, 'it involves a violation of religious 
 equality, deprives me of the right of self-govern- 
 ment, imposes on Parliament duties, which it is 
 not qualified to discharge, and is hurtful to the 
 religious and political interests of the community.' 
 Now without stopping to consider what they mean 
 by these high-sounding phrases and plausible 
 reasons, just ask these men, if this is all they 
 D
 
 34 THE TDREB VENERABLE 
 
 want, if there is anything kept back, which does 
 not appear in the face and front of these reasons ? 
 Ask them, if they will consent to deal with the 
 measure on the understanding that the property of 
 the Church is not to be touched ? if there is any 
 design in the Bill which is to be proposed, to 
 deprive the Church of her emoluments and pos- 
 sessions in any way ? Thus touch them but 
 lightly with Ithuriel's spear, and see if they do 
 not start up, discovered and surprised ! Yes, this 
 is their main object, to cripple and maim the 
 Church ; and yet they keep this back, concealed 
 from you, hidden behind the mask of specious 
 words, with which they mean to deceive you, my 
 worthy friend, and those you represent, the great 
 body of honest Englishmen." 
 
 "And when discovered, and the mask is torn 
 off, they will soon recover themselves, and tell you 
 of their good intentions towards me, that I shall 
 be^better for the change, free to begin the world 
 again unfettered." 
 
 "And as to the property of the Church, they 
 will tell you, for they will try to beguile you, in 
 every possible way, and look you in the face all 
 the time, that they are quite willing, that all the 
 property that really belongs to the Church, should
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 35 
 
 still be retained by the Church, but all that 
 belongs to the nation, should be taken by the 
 nation, and applied to other national purposes." 
 
 John Bull : " Yes, this is a point that has much 
 perplexed me; for I was always under the im- 
 pression that all the property which the Church 
 had, was really hers, and that neither King nor 
 Parliament had a right to it, any further than 
 managing it, seeing it put to the best advantage 
 for the benefit of the Church, and preventing any 
 waste or abuse. And turning the matter over in 
 my own mind, for things are said in these days, 
 . which puzzle one much, I wondered how it was, 
 that, if any of the property of the Church did 
 belong to the nation, as their own, they did not 
 try to recover it at law, in the usual way people 
 do. They I mean those who act for the nation 
 in money matters, are pretty keen in looking 
 after their money, I know ; and if any money or 
 property in the Church really belonged to the 
 nation, they would not be long before they were 
 after it ; they'd scent it out from far, like a rat ; 
 and this leads me to think that there must be 
 some gammon and befoolery in this way of putting 
 the matter." 
 
 Mother Church : " You are right there, Mr.
 
 36 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Bull. The nation has no right to oiie penny of 
 the Church's money, so as to apply in any other 
 way than for the Church's welfare : and tlicsu 
 men, who thus confuse the terms used, in order 
 to mislead people, talking as if some part, of \vhut 
 the Church now has, belongs properly to the 
 nation, and only part to the Church, know full 
 well, that the nation has no legal or moral claim 
 to any portion of it, any more than the nation 
 has to that of any of the railway companies, or 
 large hospitals; and this is the very reason why 
 they want to get an Act of Parliament to enable 
 them to do this; they want Parliament to do a 
 great act of injustice and wrong ; and one from 
 which the poor and the labouring man will suffer 
 most ; and they might just as well call upon Par- 
 liament to pass an act to make other religious 
 bodies, or some of those large hospitals I have 
 alluded to, give up half or a third of their reve- 
 nues, as they purpose that I should do. The one 
 would be about as just and right as the other." 
 
 John Bull : " Well, that has always been my 
 notion about the matter, until these new-fungled 
 terms came into use, which seem to turn things 
 upside down, and to make it appear, as if we 
 knew not what was right or what was wrong ; but
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 37 
 
 I know better than that ; and however they may 
 confuse one by talk, there is a right and a wrong 
 in things, which often strikes one at the first, and 
 which I have been led to think, is conscience 
 speaking to a nj<tn, which impressions he should 
 stick to, and especially when he does not 
 thoroughly understand ' the ins and the outs' of 
 the matter, by reason of the different representa- 
 tions which are made." 
 
 Mother Church : " The question of Church 
 property is a long one, when you consider it in all 
 its bearings ; but I may just give you a plain and 
 brief view of it, and leave you to think it over 
 further, at your leisure. The Church of England, 
 which I represent is called the National Church, 
 because in the early days, when the Church taught 
 Christianity to the people of this land, it came to be 
 acknowledged by the whole nation. As converts 
 were made, and people gradually became Christians, 
 they provided for the maintenance of the clergy 
 and the administration of religion ; endowments 
 of land were given, and a portion of the yearly 
 increase was secured to the Church in perpetuity 
 by numerous landlords, that their tenants, and 
 the poor around them, as well as themselves, 
 might have the ministrations of reli-
 
 38 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 gion secured to them; and when Christianity 
 was pretty generally adopted throughout the 
 country, the ancient Kings and Councils of the 
 realm confirmed and secured to the Church for 
 ever by most solemn oaths, the^land and tithes 
 thus obtained. In this sense it may be said 
 to have been secured to the Church, not ' acquired, 
 by legislative enactment,' as these agitators 
 state in one of their official papers. And 
 no private person or public corporation 
 can have a better title to their property, than 
 the Church has to her tithes and lands. There 
 are often disputes about the lawful succession to 
 property, but the identity of the Church, as the 
 lawful owner of the property she possesses, is easily 
 and fully to be recognised, generation after genera- 
 tion; as she has in all generations, since it was 
 secured, enjoyed this property, if we except one or 
 two occasions when she was disturbed in her 
 possessions." 
 
 "At the Reformation the Crown undertook to 
 be the guardian of this property, and a sorry 
 guardian, I am sorry to say, she proved ; for she 
 suffered most of her favourites to help themselves 
 to some of the choicest portions of Church pro- 
 perty ; for all of what are called ' impropriated
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 39 
 
 lands and tithes,' now in the hands of laymen, 
 formerly belonged strictly to the Church ; how- 
 ever, what remained, was continued to the Church 
 until the Rebellion, when the Church was wholly 
 deprived of this remainder of her property for a few 
 years. It was, however, shortly afterwards restored 
 to her again, and, with various large additions which 
 her children have from time to time given to her 
 since then, it has continued to be hers to the 
 present day, though the Nation is the Guardian 
 or Trustee for it still. Now just consider the 
 question in a clear and simple manner ; if a 
 guardian or trustee appropriated to himself, or to 
 any other person, or to any other purpose than 
 that which his trust implies, the money or pro- 
 perty entrusted to him, should we not consider 
 him to be a faithless and dishonest man ? Cer- 
 tainly we should. And if the English nation ever 
 does the like with Church property, she will be 
 none other than unfaithful and dishonest, how- 
 ever these men may gloss over the transaction. 
 England has, hitherto, held a high place among 
 the nations of the earth for equitable dealing and 
 honesty of purpose, but she will then be no 
 longer able to do so. 
 
 John Bull : " Thank you very much, Madam.
 
 40 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 I understand now better than I did, in what sense 
 the Church of England is a National Church ; 
 and still more so what a solid title she possesses 
 to her tithes and lands. I see also that the 
 Nation has no right or business, if strictly honest, 
 to appropriate any portion of Church property to 
 her own ends; and that all the State has to do, 
 is to take care that it be properly applied and 
 to the best advantage." 
 
 Mother Church : " Then, as I have said before, 
 these people will want to persuade you that I 
 shall be the better off for being lightened of some 
 part of my property, and will exert myself the 
 more when I am deprived of it ; but this is just 
 what a highwayman or a thief would say when 
 they wanted to get your money : and you must 
 know, with your intercourse with the world, that 
 men of education and ability require to be paid 
 according to what their services would yield ; and 
 it is only right that they who devote themselves 
 to religion, in the Church's service, should have 
 an adequate remuneration, as well as those \\lio 
 are engaged in any secular profession or business. 
 Many of these in the Church, as you know, are 
 but poorly paid for what they do ; especially 
 considering the high price things have now got
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 41 
 
 to. Why should these agitators, then, want to 
 make the Church less able to support them? They 
 had better try to help her to more; help her to re- 
 cover some of those ' impropriations/ which have 
 been taken from her and are now enjoyed by laymen. 
 Besides, there is great need, from the large in- 
 crease of the labouring population, that I should 
 employ many more well-educated men than I 
 now have, to do the work there is now to be 
 done ; so that I want more money than I have 
 to expend, and not less." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " I thank you most sin- 
 cerely, worthy Madam, for putting these matters 
 thus plainly before myself and my able supporter, 
 Mr. Bull ; and I also now see, both the justice 
 and the necessity of keeping the property and 
 emoluments of the Church in tact ; and not 
 allowing anything to be taken from her, lest .by 
 injuring her we injure our people as I thought 
 we should do by such a measure and deprive 
 them of those religious advantages which to some 
 extent they now possess, and which they learn 
 to value so highly in their hour of need. I view 
 the matter in a more serious light than ever, and 
 see that it would be inflicting not only an injury, 
 but a grevious wrong, especially upon the labour-
 
 42 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 ing class, for the poor come chiefly from them, 
 if your ability is taken away to uphold the 
 worship of God among them, or to minister to 
 the people as you now do : for there is no other 
 religious body that can do what you are now 
 doing for the people, if you become maimed and 
 crippled by these confiscations :* and it is a wrong, 
 
 * An omineut Independent minister, the late Rev. J. Angell 
 James, in his book entitled " The Earnest Ministry," bears a high 
 testimony to the valuable services of the Church of England and 
 her clergy, confirming what has been said, in these words : 
 
 "We must rejoice in their labours and in their success, except 
 when their object and their aim are to crush Dissenters. There 
 are very many among them of the true apostolic succession and 
 doctrine, spirit and devotedness ; many whose piety and zeal we 
 should do well to emulate : many to be united with whom in the 
 bouds of private friendship and public co-operation is among the 
 felicities of my life. Sincerely and cordially attached to the 
 Church, they are labouring in season and out of season to promote 
 its interests. Who can blame them ? Instead of this, let us imi- 
 tate them. Their zeal and devotedness are worthy of it. I know 
 their labours, and am astonished at them. Think of a Clergyman, 
 and multitudes of such there are, who, besides his other labours, 
 spends four or five hours every day in going from house to house, 
 visiting the sick, instructing the ignorant, comforting the distressed. 
 Can we wonder that such men should take hold on the public mind ? 
 Is it not the natural course of things that it should be so? It is 
 admitted that the Clergyman of a parish has advantages for this 
 species of ministerial occupation which we have not : he considers 
 all the people within a certain topographical limit as belonging to 
 him, as being, in fact, his cure : aid most of them, if not all of 
 them, except such of them as by profession belong to other deno- 
 minations, look upon him in the light of their Minister. This ever 
 active assiduity, in addition to the Lrd's-day exercises, is admoni- 
 tory to us. Can we see this new sight, the whole Church estab-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 43 
 
 I fear, that would justly recoil on the nation at 
 large. Already there is a spirit of communism 
 springing up among the people, and gathering 
 strength in the substrata of society ; yes, and I 
 have been truly horrified to hear sentiments, 
 
 lishment, from the Archbishop of Canterbury down to the curate 
 of the smallest village, with all their comprehensive agency of 
 Pastoral Aid Societies, Ladies' District Visiting Societies, Scripture 
 ReaderB, Church of England Tract Societies, and other means of 
 influence and power, in big commotion, dotting the land all over 
 with churches and schools, and by all these efforts labouring so 
 entirely to occupy the nation as to leave no room for, and to prove 
 there is no need of, any other body of Christians : can we have all 
 this constantly before our eyes, and not see our need of an 
 earnest ministry, not only if we would maintain our ground, but 
 make any advance;?" 
 
 Since this was written there has been an astonishing growth of 
 activity and devotedness in the Church throughout the length and 
 breadth of the land, and yet, the political Dissenters of the 
 present day are full of bitter enmity against the Church, calumni- 
 ating and reviling her in every possible way. How is this strange 
 fact to be accounted for ? The Dissenters have had many privi- 
 leges accorded to them, and it reminds cue too forcibly of Haman's 
 words, " Yet all this availeth me nothing so long as I see Mordecai 
 the Jew sitting at the King's gate." Another noted Independent 
 minister, who is no friend to the Church, undesignedly gives testi- 
 mony to the worth also of her services. The Rev. Thos. Binney, 
 some years ago, in a lecture to Dissenting ministers, at Crosby, 
 said, " My friends, we, as Dissenters, must cease to attempt to 
 multiply little men and little interests up and down the country. 
 All that we must pretend to do is to have well-regulated dissent in 
 our towns, for the purpose of putting the Church of England right. 
 We can do nothing more than that ; for the only community in 
 England which possesses the machinery for evangelising the labour- 
 ing classes, for diffusing the Gospel throughout the length and 
 breadth of the land the only community is that of the Church of 
 England."
 
 44 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 somewhat akin to communism, uttered by one or 
 two in high rank, and by some who are admitted into 
 my senice : and, if you are to be compelled to 
 withdraw your services from places where the 
 people are unable to contribute anything like 
 adequate means for the support of your clergy- 
 men, I sadly fear we shall have a race of com- 
 munists springing up in our very midst, who, 
 in a time of change and disquietude, might work 
 incalculable havoc, mischief, and misery, to all 
 classes. We must not therefore suffer any injury 
 to be done to you, in the attempt to satisfy a 
 few restless politicians, whom I am afraid it is 
 in vain ever to think of pleasing ; but must faith- 
 fully give you what support we can in your wise 
 and zealous endeavours, all through the country, 
 to counteract any such evil as now threatens us. 
 If this evil were to gain the ascendency, it would 
 be worse for us than a German invasion and the 
 horrors of war. These could in time be repaired, 
 but the poison of communism and infidelity 
 would still linger in and corrupt the vital blood 
 and energies of the nation, as it did in France, 
 from the earlier revolutions; requiring it to be 
 kept under with an iron hand, lest it should 
 break out, as it did after the late war.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 45 
 
 "But nowtell me, for I want to knowyour honest 
 opinion about the matter, do you think that, 
 through my Parliament or the Sovereign, I exercise 
 an authority or control over your actions which I 
 ought not to do, or which is not consistent with 
 my civil position ; or that you are thereby hin- 
 dered in your work : for that is what seems to 
 be implied in the proposition of these restless 
 agitators ? And do you think it desirable, and 
 that it would be more conducive to your progress 
 and welfare, as a religious body, that you ought 
 to have more freedom, and should possess in a 
 greater degree than you do at present, 
 the right of self-government of which 
 they speak ? I must confess that I have been 
 rather exercised of late in my mind, upon these 
 questions; as my real desire be satisfied, Madam, 
 is to do you good and not harm, to promote 
 your interests, - and not to retard your efforts of 
 usefulness by any power which I possess." 
 
 Mother Church: "You have put some very deli- 
 cate, and yet momentous questions before me, but 
 such as I will endeavour openly and truly to 
 answer." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " But just allow me to say 
 this much further, first : I am aware that, in order
 
 46 THE THKEE VENERABLE 
 
 to relieve the consciences of many of my people 
 who differ from you in religious matters, I have 
 felt compelled to make changes which, on several 
 occasions, led me to withdraw from you, or do 
 away with, nearly all those peculiar privileges 
 and advantages which you formerly enjoyed by 
 reason of your connection with the State ; and 
 have further, thereby, placed you in an improper 
 and disadvantageous position in the country, as 
 also for carrying on your work. For, as it is well 
 known, Parliament, which directs my affairs, 
 was formerly chiefly composed of Church-people ; 
 and then your affairs were regulated by a body 
 of Churchmen professedly. Now it is wholly 
 different. Persons of all religions, and of no 
 religion, may be sent to Parliament, Jews, 
 Romanists, Socinians, and Quakers ; Baptists, and 
 Mormonites, as well as Churchmen ; and it must 
 be apparent to all honest minds that this is not 
 the sort of body that should be allowed to can- 
 vass matters respecting religion or the Church, and 
 to decide matters for and against you. I feel it 
 to be unfair and unjust dealing towards you ; and 
 I think my friend, Mr. Bull, does so too ; and I have 
 often seriously wished that some change could 
 be made, so as to place you in a better position,
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 47 
 
 whereby also you might have a more direct con- 
 trol and ordering of your own affairs. I must 
 also say that it would be a great relief to myself, 
 for I have enough to do to mind my own affairs 
 well, without taking the extra burden of managing 
 and settling things for you, which you could and 
 ought to do for yourself, as others do, and would 
 probably do it better and more satisfactorily than 
 I do ; for, owing to the difference of religious 
 opinions that prevail, I am often put to much 
 trouble concerning your affairs, and involved in 
 many vexatious disputes, in cases where it is im- 
 possible to satisfy all, even when you do all you 
 can, as you think, for the best." 
 
 Mother Church : " I see the difficult position 
 you are placed in as well as myself, and I am 
 sorry that you .should have so much trouble on 
 my account. It has not, however, been brought 
 on by me, but by those who are opposed to me, 
 and who are projecting means to injure me still 
 further. But referring to the changes which have 
 been made of late years, involving the loss of 
 almost every advantage which I had above others, 
 from my connection with the State, I should 
 almost have doubted whether you were really 
 my friend in what had been done, had I not
 
 48 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 known how hardly you have been pressed upon 
 to make those alterations alluded to ; but I am 
 glad to find that you are still really interested 
 in my welfare. And now to speak of the im- 
 portant subjects you have just named, viz., my 
 freedom and self government. Owing to these 
 changes which have been made, which have 
 materially affected my position and involved 
 both yourself and me in great difficulties at 
 times, I have, after much consideration, come to 
 the opinion, and it has been growing upon me 
 for years, -that I ought now to be re-established 
 in my own rights and liberties, not in any way 
 to clash with your authority, but in a consti- 
 tutional manner, for you must ever remain the 
 Guardian of all English rights and liberties ; 
 and that I should be allowed to have the govern- 
 ment and control of my own family and affairs 
 more than I have had." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " But I thought many of 
 your people were opposed to this, especially your 
 Bishops and leading clergy." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes, this is true to a great 
 extent ; but it is not so with all ; indeed, in the 
 great body of the Church, there is a growing con- 
 viction, that things cannot go on long as they are ;
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 49 
 
 and that it is very desirable, that we ourselves 
 should conduct and carry out the needful changes, 
 and not leave it -to those who are agitating the 
 matter, with the design of injuring us. Many 
 dread the change, and well they may, if it is to be 
 left to these men, lest it be made an occasion of 
 spoliation. But this is just what we must guard 
 against ; and our endeavour must be so gradually 
 to guide and direct affairs, as to avoid the rocks 
 and shoals that may be ahead. But there is 
 another reason why many, of those you have 
 alluded to, are opposed to any change as to my 
 possessing self-governing powers, or are lukewarm 
 in entertaining it, and it is, that they are afraid of 
 offending you; for most of them have been, 
 directly and indirectly, appointed to their present 
 posts through you, and consequently feel bound in 
 some measure to support the system through 
 which they have obtained their position. And 
 this, by the way, is just one of those things which 
 I must speak to you further about, and which I 
 think needs altering ; for I do not think it a right 
 thing or conducive to order or peace in my family, 
 that you should have the appointment of my ser- 
 vants, any more than I should have of yours : for 
 generally they think more of your favour and 
 E
 
 50 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 orders than of mine. And though I am usually 
 treated with respect by ray servants, yet are there 
 those who will not be guided by me, but set me 
 at defiance; many of those who have been ap- 
 pointed by you think themselves more or less 
 independent of my authority, unless it be strictly 
 ordered by law." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " There does seem to be 
 good reason in what you say, but now let me know 
 specifically what changes you would have brought 
 about, for you have doubtless pondered the mat- 
 ter well over." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes, I have, Madam, and 
 with much thought and prayer. But to be brief, 
 I would endeavour to bring about these changes : 
 of course, they will need considering more fully. 
 
 I. That the Church should in future have the 
 election of her Bishops and other chief clergy in 
 her own hands. Other religious societies and 
 companies of men, have the appointment of their 
 directors, and chief officers, and it ought to be so 
 in my case. It was so in the primitive days of 
 Christianity, and a long struggle was made to 
 retain it, but it was wrested out of the hands of 
 the Church at last. 
 
 II. That the Church should be allowed to
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. , 51 
 
 extend her system so as to meet the require- 
 ments of the times and the growth of the popula- 
 tion. I would have almost every Archdeaconry 
 made into a Bishopric : some might even be too 
 large for a Bishopric, and others too small, so that 
 in some instances alterations would be needed ; 
 and this done, we should not then come up to the 
 standard projected at the Keformation; for there 
 would still be twice and a half as many again in 
 population, in each of these re-formed Dioceses, as 
 there would have been then, if the hopes of our 
 Eeformers had been carried out. 
 
 III. That the Lay-members of the Church, should 
 have a share in the government of the Body, 
 instead of Parliament. And that they should take 
 a part in the election of Bishops for their respec- 
 tive Dioceses, voting by representation with the 
 clergy; and be consulted on all measures of 
 moment respecting her interests, so that nothing 
 be passed without their sanction. 
 
 IV. That the autonomy of every Diocese be re- 
 established; that the clergy and laity with the 
 Bishop at their head should assemble in Synod for 
 a few days every year, and proceed to business ; 
 that each Diocese be self-governing ; but subject 
 to the decisions of a higher assembly.
 
 52 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 V. That while the Provinces of Canterbury and 
 York still retain their respective jurisdictions, 
 the whole Church of England should assemble 
 in National Synod once a year ; and proceed 
 to business : the whole of the Bishops forming 
 the upper house, and two or four, or more, as 
 it may be deemed desirable, of the representatives 
 of the clergy and of the laity from each Diocese, 
 form the lower house, and vote by order, when 
 they desire to do so. 
 
 VI. That the Church in Synod, should have 
 ' power to decree Eites and Ceremonies,' and exer- 
 cise ' authority in controversies of Faith ; ' and 
 that in cases of dispute their decision shall be 
 final, without any appeal to a civil tribunal, unless 
 the case, in some way, comes under a breach of 
 the civil law. 
 
 VII. That some moderate, yet effective and 
 speedy method of Discipline be re-established in 
 every Diocese, whereby disorders may be corrected, 
 and sound teaching may be maintained. A small 
 judicial body might, by consent of all, Bishops, 
 clergy and laity, be appointed to determine cases 
 in each diocese, subject to an appeal to a similar 
 body, elected by the 'National Synod, to determine 
 and dispose of all cases finally, except as before
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 53 
 
 named, when they come under a breach, of the 
 civil laws. 
 
 VIII. That the Right of property belonging to 
 the Church, should be more distinctly recognised as 
 such, to be used for the work of the Church, and 
 not applicable to other purposes : the Church to 
 have a more active concern in the disposal of it, 
 or the rearranging of its disposal : not that you 
 should entirely give up your control, but that your 
 officers be guided by my people in Synod, or by a 
 committee appointed by them, respecting its appli- 
 cation ; your control extending only to a veto upon 
 any disadvantageous or improper use of it. Your 
 officers to be paid out of the property as hitherto." 
 
 " Now this is a rough and naked outline of 
 those changes which I would respectfully submit 
 to you for your consideration, respecting the 
 re-establishment of my rights and liberties. There is 
 much that I would say on each of these several 
 points, but I must not now trouble you, as I have 
 already trespassed too long upon your time." 
 
 Madam Britannia ; " Do not say so ; I am more 
 than ever interested about the subject, and my 
 time could not have been better occupied. I have 
 learnt much to engage my mind for some time to 
 come, and I shall give the subject a thoughtful
 
 54 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 and careful consideration ; I shall also hope to 
 have the pleasure of conferring with you again 
 about the matter, as I should like to be better 
 informed upon the points you have named, before 
 I make up my mind, as to what I shall do." 
 
 John Bull (turning to Mother Church) : " I have 
 listened to you with wrapt attention, for there are 
 some things you have named that quite excite my 
 curiosity and interest, and I hope I shall be 
 allowed to be present at any future interview, 
 upon the subjects that have just been proposed, 
 as I really want to know more about them myself, 
 too. Besides I think them of vast importance to 
 the whole community." 
 
 Madam Britannia (addressing herself to Mother 
 Church) : " There may be some points in which I 
 shall agree with you, and some probably in which 
 I may not ; but does it not appear to you that by 
 these measures the supremacy of the Sovereign 
 will to some degree be overthrown or damaged ? " 
 
 Mother Church : " Not if rightly and consti- 
 tutionally considered, I think. Hitherto we have 
 been too much guided in our views of this matter 
 by Court sycophants of past days, both among 
 lawyers and divines, as well as statesmen, who, to 
 bask in royal favour, have prompted the Sovereign
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 55 
 
 to use her power to suppress in many ways the 
 rights and liberties of the Church, or to exercise 
 them instead of the Church. Now rightly viewed, 
 I contend that the supremacy of the Crown is 
 designed and held for the purpose of maintaining 
 and upholding the rights and liberties of the people, 
 not of suppressing them be it in causes ecclesias- 
 tical or civil, or be it towards the individual sub- 
 ject or any society of subjects : and that the utmost 
 amount of freedom in all cases should be afforded, 
 consistent with the general good of the community, 
 and the safety of the temporal government. The 
 safety of the Crown, I also contend, must be 
 upheld in its integrity, and the constitutional 
 exercise of it also, as it is essentially necessary to 
 good government that a supreme power be placed 
 in some hands, not only for the sake of the Church, 
 but for the order and well-being of other societies 
 and orders of men; and then this supremacy, when 
 thus rightly exercised, is one of the brightest 
 jewels that rests upon a Sovereign's brow, which 
 is only dimmed and disfigured when used despotic- 
 ally, to tread upon the rights and liberties of any 
 of the people." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " You put the matter in a 
 strong light, still there is much that commends
 
 56 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 itself to our approbation. But there is another 
 point I want to ask you about, for I must can- 
 vass both sides of the question with you, Will 
 not this re-establishment of the Church in her 
 rights and liberties, so as to give her a self- 
 government, be the setting up of an Imperium 
 in Imperio, the erecting a kingdom within a 
 kingdom, the establishing a power which may 
 defy any temporal authority; for thus, it has 
 been intimated to me, that it will be ? Would 
 there not be some danger of weakening my civil 
 government by such a measure ?" 
 
 Mother Church : "Oh, no ! this is a foolish 
 notion which some minds are apt to conjure 
 up, as if there were a lion in the way, which 
 will prevent any kind of advancement. If I 
 were under the Pope, or laid claim to exercise 
 authority in civil matters, there might be some 
 apprehension of this danger ; but as the Church 
 of England I do not make any such pretensions, 
 for the Church is a kingdom in another sense 
 to that over which a temporal sovereign rules : 
 the one is a spiritual, the other an earthly king- 
 dom, and you need be under no fear of your 
 authority being defied or damaged from the re- 
 establishment of those rights and liberties, whereby
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 57 
 
 I shall obtain self-government, any more than you 
 are from other religious bodies, and from other 
 large and powerful companies of men. Besides, 
 I trust and honestly think that you would have 
 no more loyal supporters in your dominions than 
 my people, or more amenable to your laws. The 
 supremacy of the Crown would still be main- 
 tained, over all causes ecclesiastical and civil : 
 you would have, as you now have, a civil power 
 .over all denominations of religion, as well as 
 over men in secular capacities ; not indeed to 
 trample upon their rights and liberties, but to 
 prevent wrong, and to uphold the rights and 
 liberties of all alike ; and if one or other trans- 
 gressed the civil laws, they would still be subject 
 to the decisions of your courts of justice." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " I thank you for satisfying 
 me on this head, for I can see my way clearer to 
 consenting to such a change as you suggest. But 
 how will you be able to make provision for the 
 creation of so many more dioceses as you think 
 would be desirable ? for of course you must not 
 expect any pecuniary assistance from me, as I 
 have other subjects who are dissenters, and they 
 would not regard it as fair, so I am barred from 
 helping you in this way."
 
 58 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Mother Church : " We do not look for help 
 from you in this way ; but I think, by a little 
 rearrangement of our resources, which I point 
 to under the eighth head of Eights, a moderate, 
 though perhaps not quite an adequate income, 
 might be obtained at first, which might be sup- 
 plemented afterwards by the devotions of the 
 people, which I have no doubt would be forth- 
 coming, especially if it become apparent that the 
 Church's right to her own property would be 
 maintained, as that of other bodies is, and that the 
 sentiments of those who would be levellers and 
 equalizers of the Church's funds were not to 
 prevail." 
 
 " It is too large a question to enter upon now ; 
 but, in passing, I might suggest as one way of 
 meeting the difficulty, that since the present 
 dioceses would be materially diminished the 
 Bishops should severally hold the office of Dean 
 also in their separate Cathedrals ; each Bishop 
 having two Canons under him, constantly resi- 
 dent and ready to supply his place when absent, 
 so that he might feel fully at liberty to go about 
 his diocese as hitherto. Some of the Bishops 
 also might feel disposed to part with a portion 
 of their income, having less responsibilty,
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 59 
 
 and in consequence of their having less 
 demands upon their charity. But how- 
 ever this might be, it might be ordered that 
 upon the appointment of every fresh Bishop a 
 portion of the income, say a thousand pounds, 
 should be secured for every new diocese. This, 
 with the incomes of the Deans and of the Arch- 
 deacons, (the office of which, as at present, should 
 be done away with,) might be one way, among 
 others, of obtaining means for carrying out the 
 extension of the system on the large scale which 
 I have proposed. Of course, this could only be 
 done gradually, and after having been well con- 
 sidered and matured in all its details by your 
 officers, in conjunction with my people in their 
 Synods. I trust, however, that on the increase 
 of Bishoprics you would not require any more 
 Bishops in Parliament than now sit there ; for 
 the sacrifice of their time to their parliamentary 
 duties is a serious loss to the several dioceses, 
 where their time and presence is more than ever 
 needed : still we must not begrudge the cost of 
 the services of those you now have when you 
 are consulting for the welfare of the nation, in 
 which we ourselves are also included. Never- 
 theless, I trust that the services of those you
 
 60 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 now have will be sufficient, and that there will 
 be no necessity to call for more Bishops to enter 
 Parliament." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " You may set your mind 
 at rest upon this point ; as I do not think there 
 will be any necessity for more Bishops in Parlia- 
 ment; nor do I think it would be approved of 
 by the nation. Those additional Bishops would 
 then be of more than ordinary service to you." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes, they certainly would ; 
 they would be eminently serviceable. I would 
 also remark, before we close our interview, that 
 in what I have proposed for the re-establishment 
 of our rights and liberties, in order that we may 
 obtain self-government, there is, I consider, no 
 unreasonable demand made. I have asked for 
 nothing, for no extra privilege or advantage, 
 but what other religious bodies in the country 
 already possess, or may possess if they will. You 
 are not asked to concede anything to me, but 
 what you have already conceded to them ; and I 
 regard it as only a matter of even-handed justice, 
 which must approve itself to honest-hearted men, 
 and I think to our friend here, Mr. Bull, that 
 since I have suffered loss in other ways, I should 
 at least be made equal to them in the rights and 
 liberties which they already possess."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 61 
 
 John Bull : " Well, there is a good deal of 
 truth and reason in what you say, Madam. I 
 do like to see fair play and justice done all round 
 to every one. I was a little startled at first, at 
 some things you said, but I begin to think that 
 it is the right way to meet these difficulties, and 
 to put things upon a better footing throughout 
 the nation. There is nothing like taking the 
 bull by the horns, as the common saying is, 
 excuse my punning on my own name. And I 
 verily believe that the bringing forwards of a 
 large and bold measure, like what you, our vene- 
 rable friend, have proposed, and which seems to 
 go to the root of the matter, will put a stop, 
 more than anything else, to these endless bicker- 
 ings and disputes about religious privileges ; and 
 more effectually secure the Church in her poses- 
 sions, than any thing you could otherwise do. 
 The tinkering measures, as to whether you cannot 
 find something more for the Deans and Canons 
 to do ; and the endeavours to obtain only two or 
 three more Bishops, may well stick fast, for they 
 do not meet the requirements of the times in any 
 adequate or proportionate degree." 
 
 Here Mother Church rose and said she hoped 
 they would excuse the length of time she had
 
 62 THE THREE VENERABLE, ETC. 
 
 trespassed upon their attention ; and thanking 
 them warmly for their consideration of these 
 matters that more especially concerned herself, 
 she took her departure. 
 
 John Bull, however, accompanied her to the 
 door, and detained her a moment in the hall, 
 to bid her be of good heart, as he should stand by 
 her and see fair play done. " 111 take care," he 
 said, " to let all those whom I represent know the 
 full truth about all these matters, so that they may 
 have their eyes opened a little, and not be taken in 
 by the gross misrepresentations about you, which 
 are now going about the country. But let me 
 beg of you also, dear Madam, not to relax your 
 own efforts, not only to bring about the re-establish- 
 ment of your rights and liberties, but to keep your 
 people in every part, well informed about matters, 
 and ready to act, as one man, from every point, 
 anytime, at a moment's notice." 
 
 Mother Church : " Thank you, my friend, I will 
 not forget what you say, and now, may God's 
 blessing rest upon you." " Amen," replied John 
 with great warmth and reverence; and so they 
 parted.
 
 PAET III. 
 
 ABOUT three weeks after the last conference with 
 Madam Britannia, Mother Church received a note 
 from her, and upon opening it read as follows : 
 " Madam Britannia presents her compliments to 
 Mother Church, and would feel highly gratified 
 to have the favour of another interview with her 
 on Monday next, at Eleven o'clock, and she further 
 begs to acquaint Mother Church, that should it be 
 convenient for her to come at the time named, she 
 will take care to inform their friend, John Bull, 
 that he may be present." 
 
 A satisfactory answer was returned in the affirm- 
 ative, accepting the invitation ; and, at the same 
 time, Mother Church begged permission that she 
 might also bring her friend with her, viz., the Old 
 Lady living in Threadneedle Street. On the day 
 and at the time appointed then, Mother Church, 
 accompanied by her friend, found herself seated in 
 conclave with Madam Britannia and John Bull. 
 
 After the usual greetings and interchange of 
 courtesy, for an old fashioned courtesy as well 
 F
 
 64 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 as cordiality was maintained, Madam Britannia 
 opened the conference by saying, that she had 
 given much thought and consideration to the 
 matters that had occupied their attention at their 
 last interview, as she felt them to be of great 
 moment, and such as greatly affected the welfare of 
 her people. "And" she continued "you must 
 know that our last interview has already been 
 noised abroad ; and, as it is generally known that 
 I am now entertaining considerations respecting an 
 equitable adjustment of those disputed matters, 
 arising from your connection with the State, which 
 seem to cause offence to some, those who are opposed 
 to you, most venerable Lady, urge upon me still the 
 necessity of disconnecting you wholly from the 
 State, pleading that they also are subjects of the 
 realm, and ought to be placed upon a footing with 
 you, or rather that you should be placed upon an 
 qual footing with them. They assure me also, 
 that my Parliament has full power and authority 
 to dispose of your property as they like, that it is 
 national property ; and that as a matter of equity 
 between yourself and them, you should be dis- 
 posessed of it, or to such an extent as to place you 
 on a level with them." 
 
 " Now, I must have you, and all with whom I
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 65 
 
 am concerned, fully to understand, that it is my 
 wish, and it shall be my endeavour also, to do 
 justly and equitably to all parties, and that each 
 and every one in these dominions should be fairly 
 dealt with, so that there may be no reasonable ground 
 of complaint. But whilst I say this, I am con- 
 scious, at the same time, that there are some people 
 who have only a one-sided view of fairness, i. e., 
 fairness towards themselves, and do not consider 
 others ; and will permit injustice and wrong to be 
 done to others, and even approve of it, and regard 
 it in the light of a virtous act, so long as it brings 
 some advantage to themselves ; and on the other 
 hand, they will continue to complain even when a 
 righteous decision is made, and equitable measures 
 are dealt out to others as well as themselves, if the 
 measures or decisions do not give them some ad- 
 vantage over their neighbours, or come up to their 
 own view of what they think ought to be their due: 
 and they are displeased, dissatisfied, and cry out 
 for further justice, if their unjust demands are not 
 yielded to, however hard, or inconsiderate the 
 yielding to their demands might bear upon others. 
 I cannot then for one moment sanction or support 
 such a one-sided kind of justice or equity, which 
 is no justice or equity at all : I cannot hold the
 
 66 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 balances in my hand, and give a pressure to the 
 scales on their side, to the injury and detriment of 
 others : nor is there any end, I am apt to think, 
 to such demands and views, when once admitted ; 
 for it is but the admission of selfishness a base 
 craving for what is not theirs, as well as a perver- 
 sion of justice." 
 
 " And I say this, because from what you said on 
 a former occasion, and I think you have a perfect 
 right to be heard, as well as others, I was led to 
 think you had the right on your side : for I con- 
 sidered that the measures which have been passed 
 in former years, giving religious liberty and advan- 
 tages to Dissenters which they did not formerly 
 possess, ought not to place you in more disad- 
 vantageous circumstances, with regard to the 
 management and administration of your own con- 
 cerns, than those which they possess themselves ; 
 and that it is only reasonable that you should 
 have your just rights and liberties restored to 
 you, to make you now equal with them ; and 
 that your Right to property, however much 
 larger it may be than what they possess, for 
 you have had a much longer service than they 
 should be respected as much as theirs ; and that 
 nothing not a hoof or nail should be taken
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 67 
 
 from you, as belonging to the nation, unless the 
 nation can prove that it has a clear right and 
 substantial title to it, independently of yourself. 
 This, I think, will approve itself to all honest men, 
 and I am 'sure it will to my friend, Mr. Bull, as 
 even-handed justice." 
 
 John Bull : " Aye, aye, Madam ! this is the right 
 sort of justice ! I like none of those levelling and 
 communistic notions, which seem to me like the 
 principles of the light-fingered gentlemen, who 
 want to be handling, and getting hold of other 
 folks property, rather than earning an honest 
 livelihood for themselves, and living in peace 
 and good-will with their neighbours." 
 
 Madame Britannia : " I am glad to hear you 
 speak out, Mr. Bull, as it helps to confirm me in 
 the view I have taken of the matter; and I was only 
 going to add, that as the mist, with which the sub- 
 ject has been enveloped, clears away, so that we can 
 get to see the matter properly in all its bearings, I 
 begin to view the design of confiscating the property 
 of the Church with greater abhorence than I did. 
 It is not only a dangerous movement, which, what- 
 ever people may say, will seriously shake the 
 rightful possession of all other kinds of property, 
 and leave things in a very unsafe condition ; it is
 
 I'S THE THBEE VENERABLE 
 
 not only a scheme fraught with harm to the well- 
 being of the Church, if not to the very maintenance 
 of true religion, and consequently to the real wel- 
 fare of the people ; but it is an unjust thing to do, 
 on the very face of it ; and no good will come of 
 it to the nation, I am persuaded." 
 
 Mother Church : " I truly thank you Madam 
 for your earnest and faithful consideration of the 
 matter I brought before you on a former occasion, 
 and I am glad to learn that you have formed so 
 favourable an impression of the justice of my 
 cause, and that I shall not have appealed to you 
 in vain for protection and support in the obtain- 
 ing and maintaining my true rights and liberties: 
 especially in such ways, as they have been granted 
 to others, and are truly in accordance with the 
 fundamental constitutions of the realm, and the 
 principles of good government. And let me say 
 this dear Madam, before I begin to speak upon the 
 subject before us, that I firmly believe, it is your 
 earnest wish and determination to do only what is 
 right and just in the matter ; and that after ascer- 
 taining what is really due to all parties, you will 
 endeavour to give a righteous judgment. It has 
 been the thought of this, that has emboldened me 
 to bring the matter before your notice, because I
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 69 1 
 
 felt assured, notwithstanding the outcry that is 
 made against me, and the assault which is projected, 
 and I am sure I have given no real occasion for 
 one or the other, that wherever Britannia rules 
 there the true principles of liberty and justice will 
 prevail, and predominate." 
 
 " I am sorry to have to say it of those who are 
 my neighbours, and with whom I would live in 
 peace, that however plausible their manners, and 
 whatever sentiments of wishing me well they may 
 utter, they are acting as my bitter enemies; I have 
 been very unwillingly forced to this conclusion, 
 especially with regard to some of whom I thought 
 better ; but let this pass ; let us come to the points 
 in dispute. I have to complain that they grossly 
 misrepresent the true state of the case, as I hope 
 presently to shew you ; and there is, further, so 
 much sophistry mixed up with their statements, 
 that unless you thoroughly examine the subject for 
 yourself, without taking it at second-hand, or on 
 what they say about it, you, and others who wish 
 to do what is right, would be deceived, and think 
 they had some real grievance against me, and that 
 justice demanded that I should be thrown over- 
 board, and my prospects and property should be 
 sacrificed for them. Let me however give you
 
 70 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 some instances, which will lead us to the very 
 marrow of the question." 
 
 "You have just alluded to my having a Eight 
 to property, as well as other parties ; the which, as 
 you may remember, is one of those Eights which 
 ought now, I contend, to be more fully acknowledged 
 by the State, so as to set the matter at rest. Now 
 it is advanced by our adversaries that the Church 
 has no right to property because she is a National 
 Church. But, I would ask you, and all the people 
 of England, or such of them as will but think 
 a moment for themselves, and judge what is right : 
 why ought not the Church to have a right to 
 property as well as any other religious body in the 
 country ? Why should the fact of her being a 
 National Church be any objection to this ? Is 
 not this the very reason, think you, why the 
 State should acknowledge and firmly maintain 
 the right which the Church has to property, and 
 this, just because her services are administered 
 for the benefit of the whole nation, and not for 
 a sect ? If people choose not to have the 
 services of the Church, they are at liberty to 
 have others, and make as many sects in the 
 country as they like, and as many priests and 
 ministers of their own as they will ; there is now
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 71 
 
 no law of the land to prevent them. But they 
 have no right to take away the means which the 
 Church possesses for still carrying on her advanta- 
 geous work, advantageous as it undoubtedly is to 
 the country. A young man who wants to set up in 
 business, may leave the old established firm, where 
 he has been employed, and begin for himself, but 
 he has no right to take away any of the property 
 belonging to the old firm ; or take means to upset 
 its credit or stability, so that he may flourish the 
 more, if he could, by any means, damage it, or 
 cripple its operations. Honest competition and 
 fair dealing he has a right to, and may succeed by 
 them in gaining a footing, but he has no right to 
 any underhand schemes for ruining the old firm 
 from which he has separated himself. If the Church 
 were supported by the State, if the country were 
 taxed to maintain the clergy and the services of the 
 Church, or if the State had any just or legitimate 
 claim to the property of the Church, then, I 
 grant you, our adversaries and opponents might 
 have some just cause to complain, that they 
 were not fairly dealt with. But, as this is not the 
 case even in the smallest degree, as I shall be able 
 to shew you : and, as I shall be able, on the other 
 hand, to prove that the Church maintains herself
 
 72 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 on her own property, and on the voluntary contri- 
 butions of her people ; that she does not get one 
 penny from Parliament, and is no more supported 
 out of the National purse than the Dissenters are, 
 then, I deny that they have any just cause for 
 complaint." 
 
 John Bull : " Yes, I see. You have just hit the 
 point there, Madam: and I am anxious to learn 
 further about the matter." 
 
 Mother Church : " Then again, take another in- 
 stance of their sophistry with which they would 
 blind the eyes of the people. They tell you, as it 
 appears, ' that your Parliament has the power and 
 authority to take away, and dispose of the property 
 of the Church as they think fit.' It is true, I grant 
 you, that they have tlic power and authority to do 
 this ; but I deny that they have the right to do 
 this. They have no right to take what does not 
 belong to them, and appropriate it to their own use, 
 any more than I, or another person has to take what 
 does not belong to us. This, in plain language, 
 is to steal, and those who do such things we call 
 thieves. And it is none the less criminal and im- 
 moral for those intrusted with the supreme power 
 and authority in the land to do this. It is an abuse 
 of power, it is tyranny the subversion of right to
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 73 
 
 might the recourse to the principle of the brute 
 force of a barbaric age ; and is equally to be 
 reprobated in the government or legislation of 
 a country, as in the conduct of an individual." 
 
 " Parliament has the povier to confiscate other 
 kinds of property in this country. It can seize 
 upon houses as well as lands, and upon the fur- 
 niture in the houses, and the wine in the wine- 
 cellars also. It might seize upon the money in 
 our banks, or pass a law to remit the national 
 debt wipe it out as discharged, as they did on 
 one occasion the debts of Henry the VIII. ; or 
 they might make a law that no man should 
 possess above a certain moderate amount of 
 money, or land, and that all above that amount 
 Should go into the national purse ; or, that when a 
 man dies, half his money or landed property should 
 go to the State. All such things they have power 
 to do. And in discussing the making of such a 
 law, to effect any such scheme, many very plausible 
 excuses and specious arguments might be advanced 
 for passing such a measure. It might be urged, 
 that no man wants more than a competency for 
 himself and his family ; and, that so long as this is 
 secured to him he has enough, and that a more 
 satisfactory use might be made of the surplus, by
 
 74 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 applying it to the benefit of the nation at large. 
 Or it might be said, that money and property would 
 do more good by being spread among a larger 
 number, than in being confined to a few favoured 
 individuals. You might find some of the advocates 
 for such a law quoting from the poets, and saying : 
 
 ' Man wants but little here below, 
 Nor wants that little long.' 
 
 Or it might be said, that in all legislative measures 
 we should have the good of the many in view 
 rather than the few. I mention such pleas that 
 you may see how easy it is, for the advocates of 
 such measures, to blind the eyes of those whom they 
 want to cajole and delude ; and that many spe- 
 cious arguments might be employed as a pretext to 
 seize upon other kinds of property as well as Church 
 property, if you once set aside the fundamental 
 principles of right and jitstice, or once take away 
 the barrier against fraud, wrong, and robbery ; or 
 cease to maintain that you have no right to take 
 from another, without his free will and consent, 
 anything that truly belongs to him, whether it 
 comes to him by his own exertions, or by inheri- 
 tance, or by a free gift." 
 
 " I will not now enter upon the evil of such a 
 course, and how detrimental it would eventually
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 75 
 
 prove to the whole nation, as it would tend to repress 
 the very springs of industry and laudable ambi- 
 tion ; and how it might be brought to bear also, 
 by legislation, upon the honest industry of the poor, 
 and the skill of the able workman ; but I am sure, 
 that amid all the sophistry with which such schemes 
 of confiscation might be advanced there is as it 
 must strike you all a false ring about them, which 
 should make you doubtful of accepting them, and 
 set you upon your guard against giving them 
 currency. For the doctrine or principle, whether 
 it applies to the property of the Church, or of any 
 other corporation, or of an individual, of taking 
 away from them what is theirs by right, is to be 
 denounced as barbarous and unjust to the extreme. 
 It is but reverting to the principle of savage and 
 lawless times when they said : 
 
 'There is a simple plan, 
 That they shall take who have the power, 
 And they shall keep who can.' 
 
 We therefore protest with all our strength against 
 such schemes, as most pernicious and villainous, 
 as well as most unjust, cruel, and uncalled for." 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadneedle Street here ex- 
 claimed. " And a most disastrous state of affairs 
 we should have in the country ! No kind of pro-
 
 76 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 perty would be safe : much uneasiness, and a 
 feeling of insecurity would prevail, which would 
 prove very detrimental to the enterprise and interests 
 of the country. There are some of our Statesmen 
 that would pooh-pooh such an opinion, but they do 
 not know as much as I do about these things, or 
 consider what the ultimate results would be. I 
 therefore, as the representative of other kinds of 
 property, not belonging to the Church, would de- 
 nounce the principles of confiscation as dishonest 
 and unrighteous; for there is no justice in it unless 
 the party or parties have done some wrong, or 
 abused their right as honest citizens, and then it is 
 a matter for the law to decide upon." 
 
 Mother Church : " If Parliament were to act in 
 this way, it would certainly tend to undermine the 
 foundations of our social life in England ; and 
 destroy in some measure that sense of right and 
 justice, which exercises so valuable an influence in 
 all the transactions of the Commercial life, and 
 among the trading portions of the community. And 
 as the evil that men do often comes back upon 
 themselves, so is it with the measures of Parliament 
 also; there are many instances in which the country 
 has suffered from the arbitrary and unjust laws 
 which past Parliaments have passed : and Parlia-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 77 
 
 inent ought now still to fear however utilitarian 
 and philosophical it may become that a just retri- 
 bution would come back upon them if they sanc- 
 tioned the confiscation of Church property. 
 Parliament, or the State, or the Government are not 
 the owners of Church property, but the trustees or 
 guardians of it, as it has been said over and over 
 again. They never gave this property to the Church, 
 and for the simple reason that they never had it to 
 give ; it belonged to the Church, when they came 
 into power, trace successive Parliaments or Govern- 
 ments back as far as you can. Whatever kind of 
 Government or rule came into office or power, they 
 found the Church had property of her own, which 
 belonged to her, and which it was the duty of any 
 Government having the supreme power, to guard 
 and protect. We assert then, without the slightest 
 fear of contradiction, that the supreme power in a 
 realm whether lodged in the Sovereign, Parlia- 
 ment, or the Government of the day, is a most 
 responsible charge intrusted to them, to do what is 
 right and just to all, and to uphold and maintain 
 the rights and privileges of all to their utmost 
 extent ; and, not to commit a wrong arbitrarily 
 upon any party or section of the community, or to 
 perpetrate gross acts of injustice upon a large scale.
 
 78 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 For if they do this, they not only basely abuse the 
 power or authority, which they have in trust, but 
 they frustrate and misconceive the very end or 
 object for which they exist, or have this power and 
 authority given to them. I trust Madam, you will 
 not be offended at my speaking but to you in all 
 plainness and fidelity, and perhaps a little warmly, 
 but you must excuse me ; for the subject is one 
 which affects me much, as indeed it does yourself 
 also." 
 
 Madame Britannia: "Oh no, I am far from being 
 offended, though the subject fills me with much 
 concern. I quite agree with the general principle 
 you have just enunciated, and I would rather learn 
 the truth, and know how I ought to act rightly and 
 justly in all matters that concern the interest of 
 these realms." 
 
 Mother Church : " There is a point further that 
 I would fain bring before you. Why is it that these 
 political dissenters are now clamouring for the 
 confiscation of Church property ? Why is it that 
 they purpose, by a side measure, to get Parliament 
 to pass a law to effect this ? Is it not from their 
 jealous envying of the goodly heritage I possess? Is 
 it not from the promptings of this base passion, which 
 lie at the bottom of their nefarious designs, and
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 79 
 
 is the main -spring of their zeal and unceasing 
 efforts ? Of course they will not allow this for a 
 moment, and will charge us with being uncharitable. 
 But it is nevertheless true. Just apply the measure 
 to themselves, and see how they would take it. 
 Put them for a moment in our position, regard 
 them as possessing from time immemorial the 
 property that my people do ; and we were to want 
 to take it from them, would they not regard it as a 
 villainous and shameful attempt to deprive them of 
 their lawful property ; and speak of it as a most 
 intolerant scheme a system of persecution. And 
 so indeed it would be ; and yet they cannot see 
 that they are doing this very thing, and acting in 
 the very way which they would be sure to reprobate 
 in others. But are they not hereby setting aside 
 one of the very fundamental precepts of Christianity 
 by such proceedings ; and forgetting the royal law 
 of Christ our Lord to do to others, as they would 
 that others should do to them ? There is only 
 one small ground of excuse for them, however, 
 which we should in justice name ; they have been 
 accustomed to cry out for toleration, and have 
 learnt with their mother's milk to have a grievance 
 against the Church, that they would not be happy, 
 and could hardly exist, unless they could find out 
 
 G
 
 80 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 something to make a noise about, and about which 
 to agitate the country ; even now, though they have 
 gained full religious liberty. Many of their preachers 
 also, find that their system of religion thrives the 
 better by keeping up a little round of abuse against 
 the Church ; they even advocate it, and are glad to 
 get hold of any tale of scandal, to retail it out. 
 This is however but to foster the seeds of envy, 
 jealousy, and discontent at another's superiority ; 
 and having been taught this from their youth up, 
 we must expect outbreaks and attacks at times, and 
 on a larger scale from the most enthusiastic among 
 them, who will not let the rest live in peace. It 
 is nevertheless wrong and mischievous." 
 
 John Bull : " This is a notion which has dawned 
 much upon my mind of late years, when I notice 
 one assault after another that has been made upon 
 the Church. These political dissenters have got 
 every civil and religious liberty, I conceive, that 
 they need, for the fair and honest maintenance of 
 their Societies. I should just like them to name one 
 that they haven't; they would find it difficult to do 
 so. And it strikes me that it would look much 
 better of them, if they were to let other folks alone 
 more, and not be for ever meddling with other 
 people's affairs, and causing such constant dis-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 81 
 
 turbance in the country. It would be more 
 Christian-like, to my thinking, if they were to mind 
 their own affairs more, and attend to their religious 
 duties more, trying to live in peace with all men, 
 and endeavouring by all the means they can to 
 promote the gospel of our Lord and Saviour ; there 
 would not be so much room or time then, for this 
 bitter persecution against the Church, nor for urging 
 intolerant measures and cruel usage towards those 
 whom they should regard, at least, as fellow 
 Christians." 
 
 Madam Britannia, addressing Mother Church : 
 " I have said that I freely admit the general prin- 
 ciple you have enunciated, and purpose to do my 
 best to uphold it. I must also candidly confess 
 that I think these political dissenters have hitherto 
 failed to make good their statements and assertions. 
 I have seen a number of them in the papers, and 
 then very shortly they have been met and contra- 
 dicted upon good evidence, so that they appear as 
 calumnies, wantonly uttered, to make the minds of 
 the people evil affected towards the Church : and 
 calumny, when openly exposed, rebounds upon the 
 utterer, and damages the cause he is wishful to 
 further. They have failed, it appears to me, to 
 shew that the tithes, or other endowments of the 
 Church were originally given, (though they were
 
 82 THE THKEE VENERABLE 
 
 certainly confirmed,) by Act of Parliament, or, that 
 Parliament is at the present time granting anything 
 out of the National fund or taxes of the country 
 towards the support of the Church. And therefore, 
 I feel in justice bound to acknowledge that 
 the Church has a right to her property, and 
 must be maintained in her possessions, until 
 it can be clearly proved that the nation has 
 a prior claim or right to the property, inde- 
 pendently of the Church. For this is the course 
 that would be taken in a court of justice : no man 
 can be disturbed in the enjoyment of his property, 
 until some one else can give undoubted evidence 
 that he has a prior and superior claim over the 
 property to the individual who is in possession of 
 it. Nor is the individual in possession bound to 
 produce his title-deeds until some such a claim has 
 been established, and then only for the purpose of 
 shewing that he has a more valid right to the pro- 
 perty than the person wishing to establish a right. 
 And this, venerable Lady, I take to be your position 
 at the present time, and so far, as I can see, no one 
 has a right to disturb you in your possessions, not 
 even Parliament or the Nation, until they, as a 
 Parliament or a Nation, can substantiate a better 
 claim to the property than you have, and which, 
 you assert, they cannot ; for I now fully understand
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 83 
 
 the difference between the Parliament or the Nation 
 having the power to do a thing, and their having a 
 right to do it; and moreover I trust that the 
 Parliament or Nation will never be so weak as to 
 yield to this base jealousy of spirit, or be so worked 
 upon, as to exercise their power in any other 
 way than to maintain what is right and just." 
 
 "But now," continued Madam Britannia "might 
 I ask, whether you have anything to show as title- 
 deeds for your property and endowments ; or can 
 you give any satisfactory proof of the origin of 
 tithes, as to how the Church, in the first instance, 
 came into possession of them, so as to possess a 
 right to them legally, and, 'that your endow- 
 ments cannot be regarded in the light of a grant 
 as continued by the Parliament or Nation for the 
 support of religion : and that your Eight should 
 therefore be maintained by them; taking it for 
 granted that the Parliament or Nation wish only 
 to do what is morally lawful and right ?" 
 
 Mother Church : " Most gladly will I furnish 
 you with such proofs and documents as I posse ss 
 to show you my indisputable title and claim to the 
 property I possess ; and I am the more pleased to 
 do this, and that you have furnished me with the 
 opportunity, because it will serve to put to silence 
 many of those vague and calumnious insinuations
 
 84 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 about my possessing the property I do, those 
 random insinuations and misrepresentations, which 
 they fling about to damage my cause in the minds 
 of the people." 
 
 John Bull : " I should be right glad if you would 
 do this, worthy lady ; for to tell you the truth, I 
 have been sorely puzzled of late, by some of the 
 statements which your adversaries have put forth. 
 I felt in my own mind that you were in the right, 
 and they were the aggressors, but still when you 
 read such words as they put forth, it confuses one ; 
 and one would like to have them not merely con- 
 tradicted, but proved to be false." 
 
 John Bull, during the latter portion of his words 
 had been pulling out of his pocket two or three 
 papers, small books and pamphlets, and began to 
 read portions. " One Edward Miall, says of Paro- 
 chial tithes, they ' are the product of the public 
 law exclusively, ecclesiastical or civil, or both, and 
 that they neither did, nor in the nature of things, 
 could originate in private liberality." * ' Indivi- 
 
 * Miall's ' Title-Deeds of the Church of England,' p. 5, Ed. 
 1871. Miall is chiefly indebted to Selden for his facts, which be 
 colours and twists to suit his purpose, as it has been amply shewn 
 by Pulman. Miall arrives at an opposite conclusion to Selden ; for 
 Selden would not hare Tithes to be taken from the Church ; but 
 Miall would, and labours to shew why. So true is it, that where 
 one will suck honey another will extract poison.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 85 
 
 dual spontaniety never had room to play in 
 the creation of liability to tithe. That liability 
 was from the beginning of the system fixed upon 
 every subject of the realm, not by his own election, 
 in obedience to pious impulses, but by the will 
 of those who had rule over him in Church and 
 State.'-f Again he says ' the fact that we have on 
 record such a continuous succession of laws for the 
 payment of parochial tithes, for the period of about 
 four hundred years of the earlier history of the 
 country, is utterly inexplicable on the hypothesis 
 of the tithe endowment system having had its 
 origin in the spontaneous liberality of indivi- 
 duals.'^: Another, who acknowledges to his being 
 inspired by ' Miall's Title-Deeds of the Church of 
 England,' which he condenses, says, 'we affirm 
 that these endowments are the property of the 
 nation, and absolutely at the disposal of the 
 National will.' Again, 'but further, Parliament 
 might change the constitution of the Established 
 Church. Its discipline, doctrine, and ceremonies 
 lie completely within its control. It has the power 
 to grant all that the Eitualists desire. It might 
 narrow down the system to the meanest conception 
 of the meanest Evangelical. No one can deny that 
 
 t Ibid, page 5. J Ibid, page 26.
 
 86 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 its power in this direction is unlimited.' Again ! 
 'The chief endowment of the Church is that of 
 tithes. Our opponents assert that tithes originated 
 in gift and bequest : that in some far distant age 
 land owners voluntarily bestowed upon the Church 
 a tenth of the produce of their land, and that they 
 did this for themselves, and for those that should 
 come after them for ever. This is a broad asser- 
 tion, lacking only in proofs. No deed is extant, 
 no deeds are known ever to have existed. The 
 claim of a Hector or Vicar is never granted upon 
 deed. He claims his tithe of common right. His 
 tithe is not by virtue of any deed existing, or 
 supposed to be existent, or supposed some time 
 or other to have existed. His claim is a claim 
 of common law. How the tithe system came into 
 existence cannot be affirmed with certainty. But 
 it can be affirmed with certainty that our Clergy 
 have no claim for tithe except that which they 
 derive from the law of the land.' ' Legislative 
 enactments respecting tithes of a thousand years 
 ago, are extant, but none that create the Tax.'* 
 
 Mother Church : " Without meaning to stop our 
 friend, for it is well to have what is really stated 
 
 * 'Church Property, what it U, and whose,' by Wm. Bert, 
 a Baptist Minister, pp. 7, 8.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 87 
 
 fairly brought before us, perhaps it may be con- 
 venient to make a remark or two upon the words 
 just read. We have already discussed the difference 
 between Parliament having the power, and the right 
 to do anything; and I think we are pretty well 
 agreed, as all honest Englishmen will be, that the 
 power of Parliament ought only to be exercised in 
 doing that which is right. And it would certainly 
 not be right, but wrong and unjust to attempt to 
 alter the doctrines, disciplines, or ceremonies of the 
 Church, in opposition to the Church, or only to please 
 a small section ; or even a few enemies of the 
 Church, and would certainly lead to a serious 
 breach if persisted in." 
 
 " Then there is another point named, which is 
 designed to tell against the Church, but which 
 really much strengthens our position, when fully 
 looked into, and will appear on the very face of it, 
 when once named. It is said that 'the claim to 
 tithes is a claim at common law,' ' that our Clergy 
 have no claim for tithe except that which they derive 
 from the law of the land.' ' That legislative exact- 
 ments respecting tithes of a thousand years ago are 
 extant, but none that create the tax.' Well now, we 
 freely and willingly admit all this, except the word 
 tax, for it is inapplicable ; tithes are not a tax, but
 
 88 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 the payment of a just demand, like rents of land. 
 But we can have no better security or guarantee 
 for the validity of our tithe than that of the com- 
 mon law or the law of the land, or the legislative 
 enactments respecting tithes of a thousand years ago. 
 For the common law is the basis of all our other 
 laws, that which has been upheld through ages 
 past, and has come down to us as the settlement of 
 our forefathers in the land. ' It is a name given to 
 it,' says Judge Blackstone (Vol. 1 p. 85) ' in contra- 
 distinction to other laws, as the statute law, the 
 civil law, the law of merchants, and the like; or more 
 probably as a law common to all the realm, the/ws 
 commune or folcright mentioned by King Edward, 
 the elder, after the abolition of the several provin- 
 cial customs and particular laws before mentioned.' 
 The right of the Church to her property, then, 
 stands upon the same footing, by their own confes- 
 sion, as the validity of a deed in law to property 
 when properly sealed and delivered ; it stands on 
 the same footing as that law whereby the eldest 
 son alone is heir to his ancestors ; as that whereby 
 money lent upon bonds is recoverable by action of 
 debt ; for all these as Blackstone further remarks, 
 are doctrines, that are not set down in any written 
 statute or ordinance, but depend merely upon im-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 89 
 
 memorial usuage, that is, upon common law, for 
 their support. I do not see therefore how we can 
 have a stronger foundation upon which the Church 
 can rest her claims and right to her property. It 
 is one of the most ancient acknowledged rights of 
 the land ; an inheritance or freehold in property, as 
 valid and settled as that of the landlord, and often 
 more so. And it is difficult to see what impression 
 our adversaries meant to convey to the minds of the 
 people by such expressions as they use, unless they 
 designed them to understand, that it was an unjust 
 and improper thing to have the payment of tithes 
 enforced by the law of the land, and that the sup- 
 port which the civil power gives to recover them 
 in case of refusal should be withdrawn, so as to 
 leave it a voluntary action in all instance/' 
 
 John Bull : " This is what, I think, they mean 
 to imply, for I notice in another of their papers 
 that they say 'It is the enforcement of that payment 
 l>y the State, which deprives it of its beauty and 
 value, and which constitutes public endowment.' 
 The words I have emphazized are printed in italics 
 in the paper from which I read ; and so also are 
 the words upon which I shall lay some stress 
 in the following quotation, given in another 
 paper I have, which has been taken from the
 
 90 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Encyclopedia published by the Society of which 
 Lord Brougham was President : and as it directly 
 bears upon the question, I will read it to you. 
 ' The Church relied upon the example of the Jews, 
 and required a tenth to be paid. Meanwhile, the 
 conversion of temporal princes to Christianity, and 
 their zeal in favour of the new faith enabled the 
 Church to obtain the enactment of civil laws to 
 compel the payment of tithes. In England, the 
 first instance of the law for the offering of tithes 
 was that of Offa, King of Mercia, towards the end 
 of the 8th century. He first gave the Church a 
 civil right in tithes, and enabled the Clergy to 
 recover them as their legal due by the coercion of 
 the civil power. The law of Offa was at a later 
 period extended to the whole of England by King 
 Ethelwulph.' Article Tithes. And there is another 
 quotation which is given from Burns in his Eccle- 
 siastical laws, much to the same effect." 
 
 Mother Church : " The quotation you have just 
 read gives, I allow, a very fair account of the matter, 
 and I would accept it. It is clear also that it is this 
 enforcement of payment, this coercion of the civil 
 power, which they desire to hold up to reprobation, 
 so as to make it offensive in the eyes of the people, 
 in order to get Parliament to withhold its support,
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 91 
 
 and the protection of this right to the Church. But 
 I want you all particularly to notice, that it is be- 
 cause the tithes are a most just, settled, and valid 
 claim upon the property, just as much as the 
 landlord's rent, that there are enactments of civil 
 law to compel the payment, and that they can be 
 recovered as a legal due by the coercion of the civil 
 powers. And if they had not been just and right, 
 well settled and valid claims, the law would not 
 have upheld and maintained them. Moreover, the 
 Parochial tithes are not, I maintain, the product of 
 the public law in the main, mueh less exclusively, 
 as I trust convincingly to shew you ; but, that the 
 public law was rather the product or result of those 
 who had the right to give and to perpetuate tithes : 
 and this is especially to be noticed in Ethelwulph's 
 charter. The public law is not usually arbitrarily 
 imposed upon the nation ; and, in this case it 
 was evidently made in obedience to the pious impulses, 
 in the main, of those to whom the property chiefly 
 belonged ; and no one will dispute, but that they 
 had a right to make the payment obligatory, even 
 as people can now make payments obligatory, as a 
 charge upon their own property. And the con- 
 tinual renewal of the law for many hundred years 
 afterwards shows that it was regarded as a just right,
 
 92 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 and most acceptable to the nation in general ; 
 though there would be those who would try to evade 
 paying tithes, as they do now. See you not then, 
 how this very view, which they have brought for- 
 wards, to damage us in the eyes of the people, is 
 one that very much strengthens the value of our 
 cause. Their design in this savours of that base 
 method, which is sometimes adopted, to wet the 
 appetite of the multitude by pandering to their 
 lust for plunder in some shape. They might as 
 well object to pay landlords' rents, as not to pay 
 tithes, and make the obtaining of rents as objection- 
 able to the people, because there are enactments of 
 tJie civil law to compel the payment, and because they 
 can be recovered as a legal due by the coercion of the 
 civil power. It may be a pleasing doctrine to advo- 
 cate, to those who have to pay rents and tithes ; 
 and there is the prospect held out to the mass 
 of somehow getting a share of the plunder, and 
 being benefited by a general kind of hotch-potch 
 of property. Every honest mind, however, will 
 repudiate the doctrine or sentiment as most 
 dishonest and pernicious: and it will only be 
 received and entertained in minds that have become 
 depraved, and lost to a true sense of what is right 
 and wrong. But do not let me detain our friend, Mr.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 93 
 
 Bull, from giving us some further quotations from 
 the statements of those who are seeking to rob me; 
 as it is only fair to hear what they say, and to listen 
 to their arguments in favour of their scheme." 
 
 John Bull : " I am almost ashamed of producing 
 them, after what you have said, my venerable Lady, 
 for you have shewn very clearly that the Church 
 has a right to her property; but there is another 
 doctrine or notion which they have broached, which 
 for consumate impudence, if not for something 
 else I could name, beats everything I ever heard. 
 Here it is, ' We are told that the Church has an 
 indefeasible right to such and such property : that 
 tithes and glebes and other endowments belong to 
 the Church, and it really seems to be supposed that 
 such phrases convey a valid meaning. So far from 
 this they are utterly meaningless. The Church of 
 England does not, and cannot possess a rood of 
 ground, nor any building, nor property of any kind. 
 What is the Church of England ? We leave others 
 to answer the question positively. We say nega- 
 tively that it is not a corporation, and, therefore 
 cannot hold property. ... A Dean and Chapter 
 is a corporation aggregate. A Bishop or Rector or 
 Vicar, is a corporation sole. In these corporations, 
 the freehold of Ecclesiastical property is vested.
 
 94 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 The fee simple is, we are told in abeyance. It 
 really lies with the people of England.' ' It will 
 be seen then/ the writer continues, ' that the talk 
 about such and such property belonging to the 
 Church is without meaning. Property may be held 
 by a natural person, by a man or a woman, but the 
 Church is neither a man nor a woman. Property 
 may be held by a political person, i. e., by a cor- 
 poration, but the Church of England is not a 
 corporation. It does not and cannot possess property, 
 and therefore cannot be despoiled of property. And 
 what is the interest of a Bishop, or Rector, or Vicar, 
 or of a Dean and the members of his chapter in 
 Church property ? A life interest no more. If 
 this is secured to him, he cannot be said to suffer 
 any wrong, whatever may be the fate of the Church 
 property. Now it is very obvious that a corporation 
 is a fictitious person, a person created by the 
 State and for public advantage. What the State 
 has created it can also dissolve. It can dissolve 
 any existing Ecclesiastical corporation. Such cor- 
 porations have been dissolved, and without stretch 
 of Governmental prerogative. And if Government 
 has power to dissolve one it has power to dissolve 
 all.' And again we have these words, ' who, then, 
 or what is the Church of England ? Our reply is
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 95 
 
 the people of England, the whole of the people 
 of England constitute the Church of England. 
 The Churcli of England* is the people of England, 
 Ecclesiastically considered. And if they concur in 
 such a measure of dissolution as I have supposed, 
 who, 1 ask, would be spoliated ? A man cannot 
 rob himself, neither can a nation."* Mr. Bull then 
 continued, "this is pretty strong language, but 
 I thought you had better hear some of their keenest 
 words. What do you think of them ? " 
 
 The Old Lady of Threadneedle Street, here said: 
 " If I may be allowed to speak, it appears to me 
 the words you have read are an utter confusion of 
 right and wrong ; a most dangerous and deceptive 
 way of talking or writing ; just so much truth on 
 the surface as to gild over the wrong or untruth, 
 so as to make it appear right. There is a smatter- 
 ing of truth and a smattering of learning, but much 
 false logic and foolish twaddle ! The whole of the 
 people of England do not constitute the Church of 
 England. Every one, even the children in our 
 national schools can see this. Dissenters are not 
 members of the Church of England. The Bap- 
 tists, the Independents, the Quakers and Eomanists 
 are not belonging to the Church of England, though 
 
 * ' Church Property, what is it, and whose ?' p.p. 12, 13. 
 H
 
 96 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 they are the people of England; they are separated 
 from it, and form distinct bodies, outside the Church. 
 Sometimes I find the opponents of the Church but 
 too anxious to prove, when they had some object to 
 serve or some point to gain, that there are almost 
 as many Nonconformists of different bodies, dis- 
 tinct from the Church as there are members of the 
 Church of England, so that it appears they can 
 talk two ways. There was, I grant, a theory long 
 ago advocated that all the people of England should 
 belong to the Church of England, and attempts 
 were made to compel them by the State ; for the 
 idea was to regard the whole as one family, with 
 the King as the father, as it were, who should direct 
 and order all things for his subjects as his children, 
 but the theory and the attempts soon broke 
 down. It could not, and did not, and does not 
 exist. All the people of England do not belong to 
 the Church of England." 
 
 " Then again, there is another fallacy in the 
 words you have just read, Mr. Bull. As the 
 Church of England certainly does not include all 
 the people of England, so also the Church of 
 England is not confined to the Bishops and Clergy 
 of the Church, who mainly receive the endow- 
 ments of the Church for the service they render.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 97 
 
 This is another exploded error, out of which the 
 adversaries of the Church try to make capital. 
 There is, as is well known, a vast body of lay- 
 people throughout the whole of England, to be 
 found in every parish of the land, who belong 
 to the Church of England, and form, with the 
 Clergy, as truly and distinctly a religious body 
 or society as, and in one sense [more so than the 
 Baptists or Independents. And it is for them 
 the Laity of the Church that the services of the 
 Bishops or Clergy who receive the endowments 
 in the main, are required ; and though a life in- 
 terest be secured to the Bishops and Clergy, the 
 Deans and their Chapters, yet, I ask, is the vast, 
 important, and influential body of Church-people, 
 to be set on one side and not considered? Have 
 not they an interest for themselves and their 
 children, that the services of the Church should 
 be continued to future generations ? Or are these 
 rights of Church-people to be ignored, and are 
 these services to come to an end, or be very in- 
 adequately maintained, as first one and then 
 another of the Bishops and of the Clergy die? 
 Is it not a monstrous proposition ? cruel, as it is 
 uujust, to keep the Laity of the Church out of 
 the question as having no rights ; and, to make it
 
 98 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 out that they have no interest in the endowments 
 being continued to the Church, is absurd and 
 ridiculous ! " 
 
 "You, venerable Lady," turning to Mother 
 Church, " have shewn the specious sophistry of 
 the argument that because Parliament has the 
 power to confiscate any property in the land it 
 has the right, for this would make Parliament 
 have the right to do wrong. But before I con- 
 clude what I have to say, there is another matter 
 in which the words which Mr. Bull has just 
 read to us are at fault ; alluding to the Dean 
 and the Chapter being a corporation aggregate, 
 and the Clergyman being a corporation sole, 
 they can have no right in the property of the 
 Church beyond a life interest, it is also stated that 
 when the Clergyman dies it ceases to belong to 
 the Church, and should revert to the State. This, 
 I take to be the point of the argument. But is 
 not the reverse of this the true statement of the 
 question. Is not the Clergyman a Corporation 
 sole and the Dean and Chapter a Corporation 
 aggregate, in order that tJie properly may be con- 
 tinued to the, Church for the benefit of the parish- 
 ioners in perpetuity ; and does not this instrument 
 or process of the law prevent the property of the
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 99 
 
 Church passing out of her hands to others 
 to either individuals or to the State?"' 
 
 "I do not wish you to depend upon my own 
 judgment alone in this question, and would refer 
 you again to what one of the most learned com- 
 mentators of the English laws, Judge Blackstone, 
 says on the matters. (Book I., chap, xviii., pp. 
 469-470.) 'The first division of corporation is 
 into aggregate and sole. Corporations aggregate 
 consist of many persons united together into one 
 Society, and are kept up by a perpetual succession 
 of members, so as to continue for ever : of which 
 kind are the mayor and commonalty of a city, 
 the head and fellows of a college, the Dean and 
 Chapter of a Cathedral Church. Corporations sole 
 consist of one person only and his successors, in 
 some particular station, who are incorporated by 
 law, in order to give them some legal capacities 
 and advantages, particularly that of perpetuity, 
 which in their natural persons they could not 
 have had. In this sense the King is a sole cor- 
 poration : so is a Bishop : so are Deans and Pre- 
 bendiaries, distinct from their several Chapters : 
 and so is every Parson and Vicar. And the 
 necessity, or at least use, of this institution will 
 be very apparent, if we consider the case of a 
 Parson of a Church. At the original endowment
 
 100 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of Parish Churches, the freehold of the Church, 
 the Church-yard, the Parsonage-house, the Glebe 
 and Tithe of the Parish, were vested on the then 
 Parson by the bounty of the donor, as a temporal 
 recompense to him for his spiritual care of 
 the inhabitants, and with intent that the same 
 emoluments should ever aftenvards continue as a 
 recompense for the same care. But how was 
 this to be effected ? The freehold was vested in 
 the Parson, and, if we suppose it vested in his 
 natural capacity, on his death it might descend 
 to his heir, and would be liable to his debts and 
 incumbrances ; or, at best, the heir might be com- 
 pellable, at some trouble and expense, to convey 
 these rights to the succeeding incumbent. The 
 law, therefore, has wisely ordained that the 
 parson, quatenus parson, shall never die, any 
 more than the King ; by making him and his 
 successors a corporation. By which means all 
 the original rights of the parsonage are preserved 
 entire to the successors ; for the present incum- 
 bent, and his predecessor who lived seven cen- 
 turies ago, are in law one and the same person ; 
 and what was given to the one was given to the 
 other also.' 
 
 "I think nothing can be more clear and deci-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 101 
 
 sive than these words of the learned judge, to 
 shew that the present arrangement respecting the 
 corporation sole and aggregate in the Church, is 
 a most valuable instrument in the law for secur- 
 ing the property of the Church in tact for a 
 perpetuity ; and that the arguments and asser- 
 tions of the writer whom Mr. Bull has just 
 quoted are utterly worthless and false; and de- 
 signed to put men upon a wrong scent, or rather 
 prejudice them to perpetrate a wrong against the 
 Church." 
 
 Here a general desire was manifested to post- 
 pone their conference till the same day in the 
 following week. Warm thanks were given to 
 the last speaker, as it was felt she had cleared 
 up several important points. The Old Lady of 
 Threadneedle Street intimated that she had a 
 few more words to say respecting the endow- 
 ments of the Church, which she would reserve 
 till their next meeting ; and as she did not 
 think she should trespass upon the province 
 Mother Church had marked out, she hoped their 
 venerable friend would proceed with the pro- 
 mise of producing those proofs and evidences of 
 the title-deeds of the Church so far as they were 
 discoverable. This being again promised, they 
 soon separated. , 
 
 LIBRARY 
 UNIVERSITY OF CAT 
 
 SANTA BARBARA
 
 PART IV. 
 
 ON the same day, in the following week, the three 
 venerable Ladies, with Mr. Bull, were again seated 
 in conference. 
 
 Madam Britannia, turning towards the Lady 
 from Threadneedle Street, said, " I believe, dear 
 Madam, you purposed saying something further 
 about the Endowments of the Church, when we 
 parted last week, previous to our entering upon 
 the consideration of the evidences and proofs of 
 the title-deeds of the Church, which our vener- 
 able friend has promised to lay before us." 
 
 John Bull : " May I be excused if I first ask 
 permission to read two or three more extracts, 
 from the papers and little books which those who 
 want to take away the property of the Church 
 have put out, as they may serve to give point 
 to our considerations upon this matter, especially 
 as they seem to challenge any possibility of the 
 Church being able to produce any vestige of 
 evidence of her being voluntarily endowed."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 103 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Oh, yes ; by all means let 
 us hear what they have to say." And turning 
 to the other two ladies, she said, "I suppose it is 
 agreeable to you that our friend, Mr. Bull, should 
 do this." 
 
 The other two ladies assented ; one of them 
 saying, " Certainly ; let us hear the utmost they 
 can say, for we are fully prepared to meet any 
 charge they may bring against the Church being 
 voluntarily endowed ; and, I think, we have 
 nothing to fear from the most thorough investi- 
 gation into the whole matter." 
 
 John Bull here got out his papers and little 
 books, and said, " I shall not detain you long, as 
 I shall only give you a few short extracts which 
 I have marked, and which seem to give us the 
 pith of their objections. In one of the papers 
 I read, 'The theory of pious gifts we cannot 
 understand it is incredible.'* 
 
 ' To us tithe, like income-tax, is known as a 
 legal impost. It is claimed, and the claim is 
 allowed and payment made, not in obedience to 
 the intentions and gifts of mythical benefactors, 
 in the dark ages, but in obedience to well known 
 and compulsory law.' -f- 
 
 * ' Church Property : what is it, and whose ? ' p. 9. 
 f Ibid, p. 10.
 
 104 THE THBEE VENERABLE 
 
 Again, this writer tauntingly asks, 'Are not 
 the lands that belong to the Church to be re- 
 garded as endowments created by private bounty ? 
 If so, let the deeds be shewn. Let us learn from 
 them who gave when the gifts were made and 
 for what purpose ?' * As if he thought this could 
 not be done. Another of the opponents of the 
 Church seems to be of the same opinion also, 
 for he says ' We have heard much talk about the 
 pious ancestors who, in the good old times, gave 
 the bulk of the property by which their denomi- 
 nation is supported. Let us have some of their 
 names, and a quotation or two from their deeds.'f 
 I will not now give you any more extracts, which 
 are much to the same purport, as I am anxious 
 to learn how these insinuations are to be met." 
 
 The Lady living in Threadneedle Street : "What 
 I have to say further will not be wide of the 
 mark which has been set out for this day's dis- 
 cussion ; and will, I trust, prepare the way for 
 what our venerable friend, Mother Church, has 
 to say. All property comes to us in one of three 
 ways, either by inheritance, by gift, or by pur- 
 chase. It is true that those who have recently 
 
 * ' Church Property : what is it, and whose ? ' p. 18. 
 t Letters from Dissenting Ministers in newspapers, 1873.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 105 
 
 purchased property can shew by their title-deeds 
 from whom they have purchased it, and that 
 those persons from whom they purchased it were 
 able to give them a good title to it. Twenty-five, 
 or thirty years' undisputed possession, is now, I 
 believe, by Act of Parliament considered a suffi- 
 cient title, and it is considered a very good title if 
 undisputed possession can be traced back for fifty 
 or sixty years : and further, there are some old 
 families that can go back hundreds of years for 
 their title ; and it is usually considered that the 
 further back they can go, to prove the possession 
 of their property by regular descent, the more 
 valid and indefeasible the title is. And yet how 
 few of these persons can shew the original title- 
 deeds or grants of the land which they own. 
 Some maybe able to go up to Henry VIII.'s time; 
 fewer still to Edward I., and I doubt if any can 
 go back with a veritable title-deed to the reign 
 of William the Conqueror, when there was a 
 fresh distribution of land in many instances. 
 Nevertheless, the inability of owners to produce 
 the original title-deeds of their property is no bar 
 to their claim : their ancestors had formerly a pre-- 
 scriptive right, which was sufficient, and the want 
 of original deeds did not invalidate their right
 
 106 THB THREE VENERABLE 
 
 to the property, so long as they were able to 
 trace their title by other means. And in like 
 manner I hold, that though my venerable friend 
 here could not show any documents or title- 
 deeds of the original donations of land to prove 
 by what means, and as to how, she came into 
 her property in various instances, yet the length 
 of time which, in every instance, she has held 
 possession and had the use and advantages of 
 the property, undoubtedly gives her a prescrip- 
 tive right to it in common law, as it does in like 
 cases of property where the owners have no 
 proof of the original grant of their property." 
 
 John Bull : " A prescriptive right is, I under- 
 stand, properly applied to property where the 
 title-deeds of ownership are not forthcoming ; 
 nevertheless, where the original grant from the 
 Crown or otherwise is lost, there are, in almost 
 all cases now, deeds to show how the present 
 owners have come into possession of their lands. 
 In cases of purchase, they can show how they 
 obtained the property from those who had an 
 acknowledged, if not undisputed, right to it ; and 
 in case of inheritance or bequest, there are the 
 wills of the former owners, or the baptismal 
 registers and other evidences, to show how the
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 107 
 
 present owners are validly entitled to their several 
 possessions. And these are acknowledged as good 
 proofs of the owners' titles, in law." 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " Just so ; 
 and there is something analagous to this in the 
 inheritance of all Church property, which it is 
 desirable to notice, and which in the eyes of the 
 law is recognized as equally valid. There is, I 
 believe, in most parishes, a book or roll called 
 the Terrier, often written on parchment, giving 
 a description of the lands and emoluments be- 
 longing to the Living, which is for the benefit 
 and support of the Vicar or Kector, as the case 
 may be, who is appointed to serve the cure. 
 There are thousands of these Terriers scattered 
 up and down the country, in the several parishes ; 
 and in most cases they go back hundreds of 
 years to prove the right of the Church, in 
 these several places, to the property which she 
 possesses. These, therefore, I assert, on behalf 
 of my friend, to be most valid and indefeasible 
 Title-deeds to the property she owns. Besides 
 this, in the Eegister Courts of every Diocese, 
 there is a record made of each succeeding Vicar 
 or Eector, to the various Livings in the Dioceses ; 
 going back here also, in most instances, hundreds
 
 108 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of years, and proving a constant succession of 
 persons with acknowledged titles to the possession 
 and enjoyment of these several endowments. And 
 these persons, as we have seen from Judge Black- 
 stone's work, are accounted in law as the lawful 
 inheritors of the lands and emoluments, just as 
 much as the eldest son is accounted the heir to 
 his father's property, and proves, by his baptismal 
 register and other collateral evidences, that he is 
 entitled to possession. The fact of these several 
 Clergymen being duly entered upon the Diocesan 
 register, as succeeding the former holders of these 
 several possessions, is a sufficient and satisfactory 
 evidence, its being at the time the then living 
 Bishop's guarantee, that such several persons 
 were lawfully appointed ; and consequently, law- 
 fully entitled to the benefits of the Livings to 
 which they were appointed. 
 
 " Furthermore, there are in every parish register- 
 books of Burials, Baptisms, and Marriages, in 
 which the Vicars or Rectors of these parishes 
 have subscribed their names, time after time, 
 and in constant succession, as they have followed 
 one another for hundreds of years. This is a 
 further collateral evidence that they were hold- 
 ing such office, and in possession of the emolu-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 109 
 
 ments attached thereto, and that their holding 
 and enjoyment of the livings also, were acknow- 
 ledged and maintained in law." 
 
 Madarn Britannia : " You have certainly fur- 
 nished us already with sufficient proofs, and even 
 Title-deeds, or what are tantamount thereto, of 
 the Church's right to her property. Documents, 
 deeds, and registers, which, if collected from the 
 various parishes of England, would require a 
 great many waggons to convey them. And you 
 have put the matter so clearly before us, that I can 
 scarce conceive that other evidence were needed 
 of the validity of the Church's right to her pos- 
 sessions. Still, whilst we are examining the 
 matter, we shall be glad to hear what our vene- 
 rable Friend has to say further upon the question, 
 and to receive the evidence which, I believe, she 
 is prepared to give." 
 
 Mother Church : " I shall be most happy to 
 do so, and to add what confirmation I can give 
 to prove that the Church has a real title to her 
 property ; but, I must first of all tender my sin- 
 cere thanks to my excellent friend, for the very 
 able and valuable evidence which she has pro- 
 duced in support of my right to the property I 
 possess ; for she has undoubtedly shewn, inde-
 
 110 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 pendently of the evidences I may be able to 
 bring before you, that the Church has a valid 
 title, and' that her property is secured to her by 
 law, in the best possible manner in which any 
 property can be secured to any one. Overthrow 
 the right of the Church to her property, and you 
 can overthrow that of any other in the land. 
 
 "But now, as you may surmise from what I 
 have said, there is other evidence to produce 
 relative to the Church's title to her property. 
 The endowments, as you are aware, are chiefly 
 of two kinds, viz., Lands which have been given 
 to th6 Church, and the Tithes, or what are now 
 called Tithe rent-charges upon land. Let us take 
 these separately. 
 
 " First, as to the landed property of the Church. 
 It has been shewn that there are many owners of 
 property who cannot trace the title of their property 
 back very far, many not a hundred years ; and 
 very few to any original grant or bequest before the 
 Eeformation ; and it is of course not to be ex- 
 pected that the Church should be able to show, 
 in all cases, how she at first came into posses- 
 sion of her property, or who were the original 
 donors ; bearing in mind, however, what my 
 worthy friend has said, as to the manner in
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. Ill 
 
 which Church property can be traced back hun- 
 dreds of years, we are further enabled to afford 
 you proofs, in many instances, as to who gave the 
 property to the Clmrch in certain places : the time 
 when it was thus given : and the very names, and 
 description of the properties, with the acreage or 
 extent, that were thus given. And if I prove these 
 points in abundant number of cases, as I am 
 prepared to do, then I must contend that it 
 affords a presumptive evidence that other lands, 
 now in the Church's possession, have, in the 
 majority of cases, been thus originally given, and 
 that voluntarily, or that the lands have been 
 purchased by the voluntary offerings of Church- 
 men, though we cannot pretend, at this remote 
 period of time, in such cases to give the names 
 of the donors, or how the property came into the 
 Church's possession, or to specify the exact time 
 when the property was thus given or acquired. 
 For the people of England have in past genera- 
 tions been as keenly alive to keeping hold of 
 what was their own, as people are now ; and it 
 is impossible to conceive that the Church could 
 have obtained the possession of these lands or 
 tenements, and have held undisputed possession 
 of them for so many years past, if they had 
 i
 
 112 THE THREE VENEBABLE 
 
 not had a good right and legitimate title to 
 them." 
 
 " In direct reply, however, to the taunts which 
 have been thrown out against us, respecting the 
 Church acquiring possession of the property, when 
 they ask, 'give us some of their names and a 
 quotation or two from their deeds,' referring to 
 the Donors of property and their gifts, we have 
 but simply to answer, here they are. Now the 
 proofs I can bring are of such a considerable ex- 
 tent, and so very numerous, that I fear I shall 
 take up too much of your valuable time, and 
 weary you. too much with them, unless I en- 
 deavour to make some selection of them, during 
 various periods of time, and condense the evi- 
 dence as much as possible, but still, at the same 
 time, thoroughly to convince you of its authen- 
 ticity, and satisfy you that there is very much 
 more of such evidence forthcoming, if any one 
 will be at the trouble to examine it fully. 
 
 " I shall not now revert to any property ac- 
 quired by the Church within the last two hundred 
 and thirty or forty years. This must be considered 
 afterwards by itself. There is ample evidence to 
 shew what property the Church then possessed in 
 various places at, and before, the time I have
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 113 
 
 named, and how she came into possession of it 
 in many instances. 
 
 " Let us take one Diocese alone, as an example 
 of what may be found in others; and we take 
 that of London, as one that is most known to the 
 largest number of people. In ' Newcourt's Eeper- 
 toriura/ which consists of two large folio volumes, 
 the Diocese of London, as it formerly existed, 
 including parts of Hertfordshire and Buckingham- 
 shire as well as Middlesex, is only considered. In 
 these volumes we have numberless instances given 
 of the names of donors, and the donations given 
 to the several Churches, both long before the 
 Beformation, and since then down to A.D. 1636, 
 at which time the value of the endowments in 
 every parish, then existing, is given ; and, when 
 these several endowments are named, we are told 
 also from what they were derived or in what they 
 consist, and the exact amount under several heads, 
 so much from this source and so much from 
 another in each case, at this time. Moreover, 
 the names are given too of the various Vicars 
 and Eectors who succeeded to these Livings, for 
 hundreds of years back, extending to a long time 
 before the Eeformation. The volumes are full of 
 condensed information on these matters, infor-
 
 114 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 mation which was well known at the time, and 
 could be tested as to its truthfulness. As ex- 
 amples, however, of donors' names and gifts, of 
 lesser value to what I have yet to shew you, I 
 have culled out a few instances from a few pages 
 to illustrate the rest. In most of the cases I 
 name other endowments had previously existed. 
 
 St. Christopher's Rectory, on the north side of 
 Threadnaedle-street. Richard Sherington (who 
 died A.D. 1392), and John Clavering (who died 
 A.D. 1421), both gave lauds to this church. 
 Mr. John Kendrick, citizen and draper, of London, 
 (who dwelt in the parish and was buried in the 
 church,) A.D. 1624, gave 2,400 to the Draper's 
 Company to purchase lands of the yearly value 
 of 400 for charitable purposes, among which 
 20 was to go for ever to the curate of St. Chris- 
 topher's to read divine service in the said Parish 
 Church at six o'clock in the morning, every 
 day in the week, for ever. Two or three others 
 gave endowments to the Church in Edward III. 
 reign and afterwards, viz : Thomas Legg, John 
 Watley, and John Gedney. Mr. Benedict Harle- 
 wing gave certain tenements in Fleet-street, now 
 let on lease : 20 per annum of which is set for 
 reading prayers every day of the week at six 
 o'clock in the evening.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 115 
 
 St. Michael's Royal. 
 
 This Church, with a College attached thereto, was 
 built and endowed by Sir Richard Whitington, 
 several times Mayor of London, the last whereof 
 was in the year 1418. He made provision for 
 a Master, who was to be the Rector, and for four 
 fellows, M.A., and for clerk and choristers. 
 A. D. 1481, Gelbert Heydock, Doctor in Divinity, 
 gave 600 marks to found two Chaplaincies : the 
 amount, however, by some means, fell short, and 
 only one was founded. 
 
 Alhallows, Ba/rking. 
 
 In the year 1295, Adam Blakeney endowed 
 this Church with five marks per annum. 
 In Edward III. reign it was further endowed 
 by John de Cambridge ; and further augmented, 
 by one Godwyn Turke, to six marks per annum. 
 In the year 1388 John Crolys and Thomas Pike 
 gave further endowments. 
 
 Alhallows Less, Curacy. 
 
 In 20 Richard II. reign, Philip S. Clere gave 
 two messuages to this Church. 
 In 1562, Mrs. Elizabeth Bannister, by deed 
 dated Sept. 24, in this year, gave Five Pounds 
 per annum for twelve sermons to be preached in 
 this Church. 
 
 In the year 1624 Roger Daniel left by will 
 Eight Pounds per annum.
 
 116 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 St. Bennet, Grace Church. 
 
 In 20 Elizabeth : One Robert Offley, the elder, 
 gave by Indenture, a tenement. 
 In the year 1610 William Jordan gave another 
 tenement. 
 
 In the year 1605, Mrs. Doiie, widow, left by 
 will Fifty Pounds, " for purchasing the yearly 
 value of 50s., to be paid yearly to the parson of 
 this parish, and his successors for ever, for his 
 better maintenance ; provided he be resident and 
 preach every Sabbath-day, within this Parish 
 Church." 
 
 In the year 1631 Mrs. Joan Newton, widow, 
 left by will Thirty Pounds for the maintenance of 
 a Lecturer in this Church. 
 
 Such are a sample of what are to be found in 
 the volumes. And abundant more instances might 
 be produced if needed. 
 
 And though the lands, tenements, and leases 
 herein named, "may appear of small amount, we 
 must remember that this said property has risen 
 enormously in value, so as now to be of great 
 worth. But I suppose there can be no reasonable 
 objection to the Church enjoying the increased 
 value of her property, as others do." 
 
 " Let me however give you another cluster of
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 117 
 
 endowments to the Church in various parishes, in 
 a condensed form, as given by Archdeacon Lyall, 
 of Colchester, in one of his charges to the clergy, 
 containing several instances of Livings that had 
 been endowed within his Archdeaconry. 
 
 ' Audley, endowed by Kobert de Ram, in the 
 reign of King Stephen : Ashdon, endowed in the 
 reign of William the First, by Gaufredus and 
 Randulphus Baynard : Great JBadfield, in 1090, 
 by Gilbert de Clare : Great BentLey, about the 
 same time, by Aberic de Vere : Great Clacton, by 
 Richard de Beauvys, or de Beloncis : Coggesball, 
 by Earl Godwin (with the tithes of Sisted) in 
 the time of Edward the Confessor : Elsenhem, 
 by Beatrix de Say in 1200 : White Notley, by 
 Roger Bigod, in the reign of William the First : 
 Black Notley, by Walter de Mandeville, in 
 1218 : Ridding, by Geoffry de Say, in the 
 reign of Henry the Second : Weeley, by Elgiva, 
 a noble Saxon lady, in the time of Edward 
 the Confessor. It would be easy,' adds the 
 Archdeacon, 'to extend the number of exam- 
 ples ; and even to produce the very words of 
 the endowments, many of which are given at 
 length by Newcourt.'* 
 
 * See ' Blunt's Essays.' VIII. p. 349.
 
 118 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Such is the very kind of evidence, I think, 
 which has been demanded by our opponents, and 
 required from us as a defiant test of our title, 
 and here we have instances of them, in large 
 abundance, especially when you consider that I 
 have only given you a few instances out of one 
 Diocese alone. And I would only just add, under 
 this head, that if similar volumes of other Dioceses 
 were compiled and taken in connection with the 
 kind of evidence set forth by my worthy friend, 
 as shown in the Terriers of Parishes, and in the 
 Diocesan and Parochial Registers, as to the con- 
 stant succession of the clergy of the Church, 
 who, for their services, have enjoyed the emolu- 
 ments of their several livings, I cannot but think 
 that the proofs in support of the Church's title 
 to the said property are most abundant, as well 
 as conclusive and indisputable." 
 
 Madame Britannia : " This is certainly evi- 
 dence that will strengthen your cause ; and I 
 must candidly confess that I am gratified to see 
 you able to bring forward such proofs as you 
 have done, and -such as, I think, ought to set 
 this vexed question at rest, as it is a sufficient 
 answer to the interrogations of your opponents." 
 
 Mother Church : " I am pleased to hear this
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 119 
 
 from you ; for it encourages me to proceed in 
 the very arduous task I have undertaken. I 
 would willingly have been quiet, and given my 
 whole time and attention to the other important 
 duties that I have to perform; but I felt that 
 vast interests, not only as concerning myself but 
 many others, depended upon setting this matter 
 in a full and fair manner before you and the 
 public, that I felt compelled to undertake this 
 defence ; and shall now, with your leave, , pro- 
 ceed with my cause." 
 
 " We are able to go, even much further back 
 still, than such instances as I have already given 
 you, for evidences of voluntary offerings to the 
 Church, to a still more remote period, and in 
 many instances to a time before the parochial 
 system became established in this country. On 
 the first planting of Christianity in England, 
 many noble gifts were made to the Church ; and 
 the zeal and devotion of the early converts to 
 Christianity in this country seemed to exceed 
 that of other nations. At first the Diocese was 
 as one large parish, with the Bishop at its head ; 
 and after a Diocese had been created, it was 
 not long before the Bishop and his zealous 
 Clergymen endeavoured to establish a Monastery,
 
 120 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 and other religious houses, for the nurturing of 
 the religious life, for obtaining better instruction 
 and religious education than could be obtained 
 in the world during that unsettled age, and for 
 training a native ministry, so that the Bishop 
 might have a constant succession of educated 
 clergy to send out into various parts of his 
 Diocese to preach the Gospel to the people." 
 
 John Bull : "Perhaps you will excuse me just 
 making one remark at this point, and it is this : 
 that I do not think that Monasteries, and such 
 like places, are looked upon with much favour 
 by the majority of the religious people in England 
 now." 
 
 Mother Church : " I agree with you, and it is 
 not without some good reason that they have been 
 led to view them with some disfavour. But the 
 Monasteries and other religious houses of the 
 Ancient British and Anglo-Saxon Churches were 
 very different to what they afterwards became 
 under papal domination. They were more like 
 the schools of the Prophets, when Samuel and 
 Elijah were at their head ; or like the Missionary 
 stations or centres which the late Bishop [Gray] 
 of Capetown was so anxious to establish, as the 
 best means for establishing the gospel of Christ
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 121- 
 
 in a large tract of the country. Only those an- 
 ciently established were much larger and better 
 supported and endowed. Those belonging to 
 them lived hard, laborious, pious, and useful lives. 
 Many barren tracts of land around them were 
 brought into a high state of cultivation by them. 
 The services of God were constantly and most 
 devoutly performed. They were under the direc- 
 tion of the Bishop of the Diocese, and much 
 fostered by him, for they were a great help to 
 him in furthering the promotion of Christianity; 
 and men from all the country round would flock 
 to them, from time to time, and would be kindly 
 and hospitably entertained whilst they were more 
 perfectly instructed in the truth of Christ and 
 His salvation ; and many noble persons, when 
 weary of the world, would in the latter days of 
 their life retreat to them altogether, that they 
 might the better prepare for another world ; and 
 in many instances left noble gifts to these Monas- 
 teries and religious houses. The places are not, 
 therefore, to be judged by what they afterwards 
 became in popish hands."* 
 
 * Soames, in his History of the Anglo-Saxon Church, says, 
 "Other facilities for spreading religion, and secular information 
 also, were now generally provided by means of Monasteries. 
 Rarely was a Prince converted, or awakened to a serious concern
 
 122 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 " I have alluded to these places as great centres 
 of Church life and work, in those early days of 
 Christianity in this country, because we have 
 many instances of liberal benefactions made to 
 
 for eternity, without signalizing his altered state by one or more 
 of these foundations. This munificence was highly beneficial to 
 society. An age of barbarism and insecurity required such clois- 
 tered retreats for nurturing, concentrating, and protecting the 
 peaceful luminaries of learning and religion. From the convent- 
 gate, heralds of salvation went forth to evangelize the country," 
 pp. 96, 97. See also Bede IV. 27, pp. 348, 349. 
 
 Again Soames says, " England, it is true, was early and 
 abundantly supplied with conventual foundations, liberally en- 
 dowed. But these were generally rather Colleges than regular 
 Monasteries. In them were provided accommodation for ordinary 
 Clergymen, education for youth, and a home for some few ascetics 
 bound by solemn vows. . . . But England, probably, had never 
 offered, in societies exclusively and uniformly ascetic, any sufficient 
 facilities for nurturing such a disposition. The munificence which 
 had consecrated so many spots by religious houses, appears, indeed, 
 usually to have been stimulated by palpable deficiencies of reli- 
 gious instruction. In raising and endowing a Mintter, the 
 vernacular form of Afontuterium, Anglo-Saxon piety had appa- 
 rently little else in view than a church for ordinary worship, 
 surrounded by a body of Clergy, who might both serve it and 
 itinerate in the neighbourhood. Eventually many of these estab- 
 lishments became Monasteries, in the sense affixed to that word 
 by after ages. But one part of the generation, witnessing this 
 change, condemned it as an injustice based upon delusion. The 
 other part, probably, thought not of inquiring into the truth of 
 such a change. . . . Innovations upon established usage and 
 vested interests require, however, time and perseverance. A com- 
 plete monastic triumph was accordingly delayed until after the 
 Norman Conquest." Soames pp. 166, 167. See also, Inett. I. 329. 
 
 Waddington also, who enters fully into the abuses that crept 
 into Monasteries, says, " In early ages the Monks were the 
 subjects, and, as it were, the army of the Bishops." " Absolute 
 exemptions from Episcopal authority were for some time rare."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 123 
 
 them of which I desire you to take notice. I 
 have selected a few for your consideration. 
 
 Gflastonbury Abbey or Monastery. 
 
 A.D. 601. King Dammonia gave lands contain- 
 ing five families (quinque Cassata).* 
 A.D. 675. Kenwalch bestowed Farramore, and 
 other possessions upon it. 
 
 A.D. 680. Kentwyn gave to it the manor of 
 West Montaton, and Kene walla bestowed some 
 lands upon the monks also. 
 King Ina was a great benefactor. He not only 
 rebuilt the Abbey, but bestowed upon them the 
 Manors of Brent, Lowry, and Poulton. 
 Ethelard gave liberally, and Cuthred bestowed 
 three hydes of land at Ure. And Kenwulf be- 
 stowed five hydes t upon them at a place called 
 
 But " finally the whole monastic body acknowledged no other 
 dependence than on the Pope alone." And " during the eleventh, 
 twelfth, and thirteenth centuries, the Holy See derived great 
 power from the sort of separate hierarchy thus established." 
 Waddington's History of the Church, pp. 411, 412. 
 
 * The familia or Cassate seems to have been a circuit of ground 
 sufficient for the maintenance of a family, and the cultivation by a 
 plough, averaging from a hundred to one hundred and fifty acres 
 
 f- A hide of land was not derived, as Polydore Virgil fancies, 
 from the hide of a beast, as if au English hide of land were like 
 the extent of Carthage, " Quantum taurino possint circundare 
 tergo," but from the Saxon hyd, a house or habitation, from 
 Hydan to cover. The quantity of a hyde was never expressly 
 determined. Qerw.it of Tilbury makes it one hundred acres. 
 The Malmesbury MSS., cited by Spelman, computes it at 96 acres, 
 or four virgates : every virgate being 24 acres.
 
 124 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Wadaton, and other possessions at Huneresbury. 
 There are other gifts to this place, but these 
 must suffice.* 
 
 HvesJtam. A.D. 709. Kenredus, and Offa, 
 governor of East Angles, endowed this Abbey 
 with large possessions. 
 
 During the time Egwin was Bishop of Wor- 
 cester, 22 towns were gained to the Monastery. t 
 
 Croyland, or Crudeland, raw and muddy, which 
 the Monks reclaimed and cultivated, had many 
 benefactions made to it. Among others, one 
 Turketellus, Chancellor to King Edred, was the 
 greatest benefactor to the place. He redeemed 
 their lands, and endowed the place with no less 
 than sixty Manors. 
 
 A.D. 975. The Monastery was said to be worth 
 10,000, which in those days was a large sum. 
 
 A.D. 1000. Osketulus, a person of great quality, 
 was a considerable benefactor, j 
 Winchester. King Alfred designed to build and 
 endow a new Minster at this place, but death 
 prevented his carrying out his pious design, and 
 long cherished wish. We are, however, further 
 told that for the more solemn carrying out of 
 
 * Dr. Hearne's History of Glastonbury, pp. 21, 23. 
 f Dr. Hearne's Leland, vol. 6, p. 158. 
 J Dr. Hearne's Leland, vol. 6., p. 160.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 125 
 
 Alfred's plan and injunctions, a great council was 
 convened at Winchester. King Edward's first in- 
 clination, it is said, was to found the new Monas- 
 tery out of the property belonging to the Church 
 of St. Swithun, but he was otherwise advised 
 by Grimald. " God," said the venerable priest, 
 " will not accept robbery for burnt offering." A 
 large and liberal foundation was then determined 
 upon. Many of the Magnates and Clergy offered 
 their contributions for its endowment. And with- 
 in two years the new and stately Abbey was built 
 and decorated.* 
 
 "This certainly shews that they both understood 
 and acted on the voluntary principle in those 
 early times." 
 
 " I have more to say about the endowments of 
 the Church at Winchester, but I would here 
 advert, for a while, to the will of King Alfred. 
 He died A.D. 901. After bequeathing large por- 
 tions of property, which are named, to Edward, 
 his eldest son (my yldiste sone), and lesser por- 
 tions to his oldest daughter (ilderyst dowther), to 
 his brother, and brother's son, his cousin, and 
 various other persons named, he gives to the Arch- 
 bishop of Canterbury an hundred marks, and the 
 
 * Liber Monasterii De Hyda, Edwards, Intro, xxvii.
 
 126 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 same to Esne, Bishop of Hereford, and to Wer- 
 fertha, Bishop of Worcester, and to Asser, Bishop 
 of Sherbourne. And two hundred and fifty 
 pounds to fifty priests, and fifty shillings (schil- 
 yngs) to every one of God's servants." 
 
 " I have brought the terms of this great king's 
 will before you, however, not so much for the 
 sake of mentioning the sums granted to the 
 ministers of the Church, but for you to observe 
 that the kings of those days had their own 
 private property, and could point it out by 
 name ; and though they were probably among 
 the largest landowners of the nation, yet in giving 
 to the Church they gave from what was really 
 and specially their own, and not what belonged 
 to the nation." 
 
 "But to continue the endowments to the Church 
 at Winchester, Edward the Elder, as he was called, 
 to distinguish him from Edward the Confessor, 
 granted, at various times between the first and 
 twenty-first year of his" reign, several lands to 
 this new Minster, comprising the Manors of 
 Micheldever, Anne, Caudover, Durley, and Thor- 
 ley in Hampshire ; and those of Cranbourne, 
 Collingbourne, and Chiseldon in Wiltshire.* 
 
 Liber Monasterii D* Hyda, Edwards, p. 333.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 127 
 
 By the year 924 it is computed that New 
 Minster owned nearly 17,000 acres of land in 
 Hampshire, and 10,800 in Wiltshire. 
 
 Several Kings, Noblemen, and Priests, after 
 this time, made further grants of land to this 
 Monastery, three or four instances of which I 
 will here give you." 
 
 1st. Bishop JSlfsige's bequest ; between A.D. 
 925 and 940. And we have the very words given 
 in his Will respecting the lands he gave ; which 
 are, when put into readable English, " I grant 
 "the land of Crondall to ^Elfheah, and after 
 " his life let it go to the Old Monastery at Win- 
 " Chester. And I give to my nephew the land at 
 " Anne ; and after his life to the New Monastery 
 "at Winchester. And the land at Titchbourne 
 " to Wlfric Cufing, and after his life to the Old 
 " Monastery. And the land at Ringwood to the 
 " Old Monastery." * 
 
 2nd. " I, Ethelnoth, a priest, give the land at 
 " Basing to the New Monastery to enjoy it for 
 " ever." 
 This is witnessed by the King and two Bishops. 
 
 3rd. Ethelner, an Alderman or Earl, gave by 
 will, also, to the New Monastery at Winchester, 
 a hundred mancuses of gold, and thirteen hides 
 * Liber Monasterii De Hyda. Edwards p. 343. 
 K
 
 128 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of land those which Lufa held ; " and this I 
 " bought," he says, " of my lord, when it fell into 
 "his hands. And I give the lands of Tidworth 
 " to my wife for her life, and after her life let it 
 " go to the place where I rest." 
 
 4th. We then find that King Edred A.D. 951-5? 
 gives by Will to the Old Monastery of Winchester 
 three towns, Diontune, and Domerham, and Calne. 
 Furthermore, he granteth to the new Monastery 
 at Winchester three towns, that is to say, Whare- 
 wel, and Andever, and Clere. And he granteth 
 to the nunne Minster of Myncheus three towns, 
 Selborn, and Hamme, and Bradford. He also 
 granteth to the mmiie Minster at Chester thirty 
 pounds, and to Wyltone thirty pounds, and thirty 
 pounds to Schaftysbury. 
 
 Also he giveth to the Archbishop of Christ- 
 church (Erchebyschop of Crystys-chyrche) four 
 hundred pounds, to rejoice the time of his life, 
 and then it is to go to the Minster of Christ- 
 church, Canterbury. 
 
 He also bequeaths (beqweythyth) to Elphege, 
 and to the Bishops of Winchester, four hundred 
 pounds ; also to Osketyl Bishop, and the Monks 
 of Dorchester, four hundred pounds, and then to 
 the Bishops' see as before bequeathed. Also to 
 Wlf helm Bishop four hundred pounds ; and then
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 129 
 
 to all the other Diocesan Bishops an hundred 
 
 handfuls of Gold.* 
 
 Such were some of the munificent gifts to the 
 Church in those early days of the Church in this 
 country. 
 
 It is interesting to note further, and it will help 
 to confirm our cause, if we mention the facts, 
 that having suffered much loss and persecution 
 at Winchester, several of the Monks migrated, in 
 Henry I.'s reign, to the extensive plain called 
 Hyde Mead, from which the Abbey here built 
 was named. Here they flourished for a time ; 
 but living in the days of the Norman Kings 
 and Norman Bishops, who ravaged the Church, 
 their Abbey was burnt down, and much pro- 
 perty wrested from them. And in the year 
 1311 Bishop "Wodelock issued his Episcopal 
 letters, reciting, " that part of the Monastery still 
 lay in ruins, and that the Estates were insuffi- 
 cient for its complete restoration, and for the 
 maintenance of due hospitality ; commending to 
 the faithful the good work of charitable assis- 
 tance, and directing that collections should be 
 made to that end in all the churches of his 
 Diocese." f 
 
 * Liber Monasterii De Hyda. Edwards p. 155. 
 fLiber Monasterii de Hyda, Edwards, Intro. II. And Registrnm 
 de Wodelock, MS., Winch, fol. 165.
 
 130 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Here we have an instance again of a system 
 of voluntary contributions, much after the fashion 
 of the present day. 
 
 I shall now give you a few more instances ; I 
 do not wish unnecessarily to multiply them, but 
 it is only by dwelling upon this kind of evidence 
 that you and the public will gain any adequate 
 idea of the extensive character of the Church 
 endowments in this country, in earlier days. 
 
 Waltham Abbey, was built and endowed by 
 Harold, A.D. 1062, with a Dean and eleven secu- 
 lar Canons. In Henry II. reign they were, how- 
 ever, increased to twenty four, and then the 
 foundation was changed into regular Canons. + 
 I want you particularly to note the character of 
 this change, which took place in this, and many 
 other Monasteries, about this time, i.e., after the 
 period of the Conquest under papal domination. 
 The Canons Secular, or Parochial Clergy, were 
 then ousted out of their places which they had 
 in them; and the Canons Regular, as they were 
 called, or the regular Monks, who were vehement 
 supporters of the Pope, and so often opposed and 
 oppressed the Parochial Clergy, were introduced 
 into their places. Moreover, the Pope granted 
 
 * Hearne's L*land, vol. ri., p. 198.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 131 
 
 these Monks exemption from the jurisdiction of 
 the Bishop of the Diocese, and made them subject 
 to himself only, or to those he appointed. But 
 more of this, if time permit, afterwards. 
 
 Ramsay. This Abbey was founded A.D. 969, 
 by Ailwine, Earl of East Angles, at the instiga- 
 tion of Oswald, Archbishop of York.* 
 
 Coventry. The Church in this place was plenti- 
 fully endowed with lands and revenues by Leofric, 
 Earl of Chester, and Godiva, his wife.f 
 Now one more instance of this kind and I will 
 proceed to another point. 
 
 Ely. King Edgar, A.D. 960, granted forty 
 hides of land, at Hatfield, to the Monastery at 
 this place, together with the village of Dereham, 
 in Norfolk. 
 
 Bishop Ethelwold procured five more hides of 
 land for it, at Meldeburne ; three and a half 
 hides at Earningeford, and twelve hides at North- 
 walde. It does not say how they were procured, 
 but probably by the abundant alms of the faith- 
 ful. 
 
 The Lady of ^Elftreda is also said to have given 
 five hides at Holand in Essex. 
 Other lands, which are named, were about this 
 time purchased for the Monastery, by money which 
 had been given. 
 
 * Hearne's Leland, vol. vi., p. 198. 
 4- Ibid.
 
 132 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 One Godwin (cir. A.D. 1000) gave the village of 
 Hoo. 
 
 And Elmer, Godwin's brother, gave an estate at 
 Hecham. 
 
 Large possessions also were given to the Monas- 
 tery by Leofwin, son of Adulf. These were the 
 lands of Cingestune, the Rodings, and Undeleia ; 
 lands in Lackinghethe, Withleseye, Esterie, and 
 Cotenham ; an estate in London, afterwards called 
 Abbotts-haie ; Glamesford ; the fisheries at Up- 
 stane, and an annual rent at Hadfield. 
 Other benefactors about this time are also 
 named : such were Etheliva and Elfwara, two 
 Saion ladies ; Duke Brithnot ; Ethelfleda ; Uva ; 
 Oswi ; Ederic, and many others. 
 " I would only now say that this is not a tithe 
 of the evidence that could be produced ; there 
 are numerous sources from whence more can be 
 brought, if it were called for, but it would occupy 
 several days to go even cursorily over it, and I 
 think I shall only be consulting your convenience 
 not to go further into the evidences of this sort 
 which I am ready to produce." 
 
 The others all agreed that it was needless to 
 go further in bringing more instances of the kind 
 forward, as they were amply satisfied with what 
 they had heard, to convince them of the reality
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 133 
 
 of the early endowments of the Church, and that 
 these endowments did not come from the nation 
 in its corporate capacity, but from the voluntary 
 offerings and bequests of Church-people long ago. 
 
 Mother Church : " I would now, however, beg 
 leave to put in evidence the Eecords of the 
 Doomsday-Book. These records will serve to cor- 
 roborate much of what I have already advanced, 
 and being compiled by civil authority it is a 
 kind of evidence independent of Ecclesiastical 
 and other statements, that might tye thought too 
 favourable to the Church. The Book is, as it 
 were, an independent witness of great weight; 
 and should not be withheld from giving evidence 
 on this occasion." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Certainly not ! A more 
 ancient collection of documents of national im- 
 portance and authority we could not have, and 
 one upon the whole that is to be thoroughly 
 relied upon. They form a Book that was drawn 
 up by order of William the Conqueror, contain- 
 ing a survey of all the lands in England, ex- 
 cept the three most Northern Counties, as the 
 basis from which judgment was to be given, as 
 to the tenures, value, and services therein des- 
 cribed. It was completed in the year A.D. 1086.
 
 134 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 But I am anxious that you should produce your 
 witness." 
 
 Mother Church : " What you have stated res- 
 pecting the Doomsday-Book is, I believe, correct. 
 It was begun A.D. 1082, and finished A.D. 1086, 
 in the 20th year of the reign of William I. And 
 in the survey that was taken of all the land, 
 those lands which belonged to the Church in 
 various places are duly put down. And the fact 
 of their being named and put down in this Book 
 is' a pretty good guarantee that they belonged to 
 the Church ; and that they were acknowledged 
 as such by the national officers appointed to 
 look after this matter, and to return an accurate 
 report."* 
 
 " I shall content myself, however, with giving 
 
 * The Royal Commissioners upon the oaths of the Sheriffs, 
 the Lords of each Manor, the Presbyters of every Church, the 
 Reeves of every Hundred, and six villanes of every Village, were 
 to inquire into the name of the place, who held in Edward the 
 Confessor's time, who was the present possessor, how many bides 
 there were in the Manor, how many carucates iu Demesne, how 
 many Freemen, how many tenants in Soccage, how many in 
 Villenage, how much wood, meadow, and pasture, how many mills 
 and Fish-ponds, how much added and taken away, what the value, 
 how much the tax in King Edward's time, what now, and what 
 advance could be made upon it. 
 
 In the Doomsday-Book the Arable land was measured by 
 carucates, the common Pasture land by hides, and the Meadow by 
 acres. A carucate (from caruca, a plough) was one hundred and 
 twenty acres up to one hundred and fifty.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 135 
 
 you only one example of the account of lands 
 belonging to the Church ; and I think you will 
 acknowledge that it is sufficient, though it is by 
 no means the longest account, for, the survey of 
 the several Manors of New minster, at Winchester, 
 to which I have already drawn your attention, 
 (the translation from the Doomsday-book) occupies 
 several pages, viz., from page xcix. to cxiv.* 
 
 " In the return of lands as belonging to the 
 A bbey of Ely, there were in Hertfordshire forty 
 hides of land at Hadfield, five hides at Chelleselle, 
 and four hides at Hadan. In Cambridgeshire, 
 eight hides at Stovicesworde ; three hides in 
 Weslai ; eight and a half hides at Waratinge ; 
 nine hides, forming the manor of Belesham ; half 
 a hide in Saham ; five hides at Suafam ; three 
 hides and three virgates in Coeia ; four and a half 
 inTuleberne; one hide and a half in Teversham. 
 The manor of Horningesie, consisting of seven 
 hides. One hide and a half in Wicheham, and 
 a half in Berceham, and a half in Badburham. 
 Two hides, three virgates and a half, in Pampes- 
 worde ; ten acres attached to the same village ; 
 seven and a half hides and two acres in Trepes- 
 law. The Manor Havochestun, consisting of 
 eight and a half hides, and one and a half in 
 
 * Doomsday-Book, fol. 59, verso, Col. 2.
 
 136 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Hurlestone. The Manor of Eacelforde, consist- 
 ing of nine hides and twenty four acres, with 
 two and a half hides and nine acres in the same 
 village held by Hardinius. The Manor of Staple - 
 forde, consisting of ten hides, and two and a half 
 hides iu Wadone. One virgate iu Melrede, held 
 by Hardinius, besides two hides and three vir- 
 gates in the hands of the Abbot. Two and a 
 half hides in Melleburne. Half a virgate in 
 Esceprid. Three hides, one virgate, and twelve 
 acres in Harduic, besides ten acres detached. 
 The Manor of Gratesdene, consisting of five 
 hides. The Manor of Wivelingham, consisting 
 of seven hides, and fifteen acres in Hochinton. 
 The Manor of Epiustone, consisting of six hides 
 and a half. The Manor of Coteham, consisting 
 of ten hides. One hide and three virgates in 
 Histone. The Manor of Whitesie, comprising 
 two hides. Five hides and the Manor of Dodin- 
 ton. Two hides and half a virgate in Cetriz. 
 The Manor of Littleport, consisting of two and a 
 half hides. One and a half hide in Stuntanei. 
 One hide in Liteltedford. The Manor of Strad- 
 liaiu. consisting of five hides. Five hides in 
 Wimbertone. The Manor of Lindoue, comprising 
 nine hides. Two hides in Helle. Three hides 
 in Hadreham. The Manor, consisting of ten
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 137 
 
 hides, in Wisbece, with two fisheries. The Manor 
 of Ely, consisting of ten hides. Four hides, in- 
 cluding the Manor of Dineham. Three hides, 
 with the Manor of Wiceford. Three and a half 
 hides, including the Manor of Winteworde. Four 
 hides and one virgate with Wiceham. The Manor 
 of Sudstone, consisting of five hides. In Hun- 
 tingdonshire : the Manor of Colne, consisting of 
 six hides. Six and a half hides in Bluntesham. 
 Eight hides, including the Manor of Sumersham. 
 The Manor, and fifteen hides, at Shaldvice, with 
 four hides forming the Manor of Parva Caten- 
 worde. And in Essex, the Manor of Brocehe- 
 shevot, comprising three hides. Three hides in 
 Rodinges. The Manor of Ratenduna, comprising 
 twenty hides. Two hides and the Manor of 
 Cadenhoy. The Manor and twenty-five hides at 
 Litelbyria, with half a hide and fifteen acres in 
 the berewick of Hamdena.* 
 "A goodly array, I think you will agree with 
 
 me, of the possessions belonging to the Church 
 
 of Ely." 
 
 John Bull: "You have indeed given us evidence 
 
 enough, I think, and to my mind overwhelming. 
 
 I had no idea that you could bring forward such 
 
 * See Dugdale's ' Mouasticum Anglicanum.' Ed. Galey, EJlis, 
 Badinell. Vol. I., p. 461.
 
 138 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 an array of proofs in support of the Church's 
 title to property, and to so large an extent." 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " Yes : 
 the Church was rich in possessions in olden times; 
 and there were men in days gone bye of large 
 hearts and devoted lives ; men and women who 
 gave as largely and as freely in their day, as some 
 of our best givers in these days, and as volun- 
 tarily offered their gifts to the service of God and 
 His Church as any now do." 
 
 Mother Church : " What you say is indeed true, 
 and it is a matter to rejoice in, even though the 
 Church, since those days, has been grievously 
 robbed of much of her property: for it is quite 
 evident, from the various sources of information 
 which we possess, that by the time of the Con- 
 quest and before the Pope got so much power and 
 influence in this country, as he afterwards did,* 
 
 * ' Dean Hook says. " There are few instances of Papal power, 
 in England, before the Norman Conquest. But the Pope having 
 favoured and supported William I. in his invasion of this kingdom, 
 made that a handle for enlarging his encroachments, and, in that 
 King's reign began to send legates hither.'' Hook's Church Dic- 
 tionary, p. 741. 5th Edition. 
 
 Hume also, speaking of the " Ecclesiastical administration" in 
 England, at the time of the Conquest, says, "It had hitherto 
 proved inaccessible to those exorbitant claims which supported 
 the grandeur of the Papacy." History of England, t. p. 192. ' 
 
 And Blackstone, who is generally accurate as to his historical
 
 I 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 139 
 
 that the Church of England was very largely 
 endowed. This is broadly asserted too by 
 William the Conqueror, in a letter which he 
 wrote to the Pope when he found he began to 
 abuse the power William had permitted him to 
 exercise, a copy of which letter is still to be 
 found in a book printed in Latin, and afterwards 
 published in English, at the time of the Reforma- 
 tion by Eoyal authority.* In this letter, which 
 I claim to put in as evidence also, the Conqueror 
 
 data, says, "The Ancient British Church, by whomsoever planted, 
 was a stranger to the Bishop of Rome, and all his pretended 
 authority. But the pagan Saxon invaders having driven the 
 professors of Christianity to the remotest corners of our island, 
 their own conversion was afterwards effected by Augustine the 
 Monk, and other missionaries from the Court of Home. This 
 naturally introduced some few of the papal corruptions in point 
 of faith and doctrine ; but we read of no civil authority claimed 
 by the Pope in these kingdoms till the era of the Norman con- 
 quest, when the then reigning Pontiff having favoured Duke 
 William in his projected invasion, by blessing bis host and con- 
 secrating his banners, he took that opportunity also of establishing 
 his spiritual encroachments ; and was even permitted to do so by 
 the policy of the Conqueror, in order more effectually to humble 
 the Saxon clergy and aggrandize his Norman prelates ; prelates, 
 who, being bred abroad in the doctrine and practice of slavery, 
 had contracted a reverence and regard for it, and took a pleasure 
 in rivettiug the chains of a free-born people." Com: on the Laws 
 of Eng. IV. p. 95. 
 
 * See ' De vera Differentia inter Regium Potestatem et Eccle- 
 siasticum,' fol. 89, A.D. 1547, a copy of which is to be found in 
 the Library of the British Museum, 697. ?
 
 140 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 says, ' The Church of England our Mother, which 
 " among all Churches of the world doth excel and 
 " abound in temporal possessions, and in the ser- 
 " vice and honour of God, and in the diligence of 
 "devout Ministers thereof, &c.' And then com- 
 plaining that a number of foreign Clergymen had, 
 through intrigue, got possession of many of her 
 livings, and who cared only for the revenues and 
 not for the flock they ought to have tended, 
 William I. states that he will, by the help of 
 God, protect the Church from such aliens, and 
 goes on to say, '.Was this the first intent and 
 
 "will and liberal mind of the Founders and Princes 
 
 > 
 
 "that the Alms and Patrimonies of Kings and 
 "others which were assigned and given to the 
 "Ministers of the Church for the exercise of the 
 " honor of God and works of charity, should come 
 " and remain to the profit of Aliens and Strangers ? 
 " Is this pleasing to God, that the Church so en- 
 " dowed with possessions, which bringeth forth so 
 "many discreet and wise children, profitable and 
 " necessary to take cure and ministration of here, 
 " should let her own Children be in hunger and 
 " penury, to give her paps to Aliens and Strangers, 
 " not only to take suck of them, but rather to tear 
 "and pull them to pieces; for the children suck
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 141 
 
 " the milk, strangers wring out the blood, letting 
 " nothing remain that they may snatch and pluck," 
 etc. 
 
 " These words of the Conqueror seem to tally 
 fully with the evidence I have already adduced 
 from other sources ; he acknowledges that the 
 Church of England in his day abounded in 
 temporal possessions ; and that they were derived 
 from the alms and gifts of pious Founders and 
 Princes, without one word to intimate that the 
 endowments of the Church arose from any national 
 grant. And it may interest you, if, in conclusion, 
 I produce before you a translation or complete 
 copy which has been preserved, of a deed of gift, 
 by one of our ancient Princes, as it is just what 
 our opponents have asked for, and will shew that 
 our kings and princes gave alms and lands from 
 what belonged to them, and which they inherited 
 from their ancestors, and not what belonged to the 
 nation." 
 
 The charter of Edward the Confessor, granting 
 lands to Westminster Abbey. 
 
 " Edward King, greeteth Wlsy, Bishop, and 
 
 " Gyrth, Earl, and all my nobles in Oxfordshire. 
 
 " And I tell you that I have given to Christ and 
 
 " St. Peter in Westminster that small village
 
 142 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 " wherein I was born, by name Githslepe,* and 
 " one hide at Mersce, scot-free and rent-free, 
 " with all the things belonging thereunto in wood 
 "and field, in meadows and waters, with Church 
 " and the immunities of the Church as fully, and 
 " as largely, and as free, as it stood in mine own 
 " hand, and also as my mother Imme upon my 
 " right of primogeniture, for my maintenance, 
 "gave it me entire, and bequeathed it to the 
 " family, "t 
 
 A.nd now, in bringing my proofs of title to 
 property to a close, I would would make two 
 or three remarks. First, it is evident, from 
 the various instances that have come to our 
 notice, that many of our Parish Churches are 
 anciently indebted to these Monasteries for their 
 endowments, though it is likely that the larger 
 number were founded by private munificence. 
 The Clergy that went forth from these Monas- 
 teries, however, into the country and villages 
 round about, preaching the Gospel, would often 
 settle down among the people to whom they be- 
 came attached ; or some other Clergyman would 
 
 * Called elsewhere ' Gibtslope,' and, by dropping a Saxon letter 
 or two became hlip ; just as Gijteteic became Ipswich, and GifUley, 
 Ifley, near Oxford. 
 
 t M.S. Numb. 24, James in Musroo, Bid. Bod., p. 61.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 143 
 
 be permanently appointed, and then the Monastery 
 would apportion him and his successors a regular 
 income from their lands or funds, especially if 
 they held lands in the place ; keeping, with the 
 approval of the Bishop of the Diocese, the future 
 appointment of Clergymen in their own hands." 
 
 " Again, our evidence shews us that it is a great 
 mistake, a mere vulgar error, for people to think 
 that the Church of England is indebted to the 
 Church of Eome, to any large extent, for her en- 
 dowments previous to the Keformation. These 
 endowments of the Church of England were 
 mainly and chiefly given before the Popes of 
 Eome gained that usurped authority over the 
 Church in this country, which they did acquire 
 between the times of the Conquest and the Ee- 
 formation. The Church of Eome has, I assert, 
 taken far more from the Church of England than 
 she ever gave. The Church of Eome has been 
 too often as an incubus, or blood-sucker, to the 
 Church of England, oppressing her and diminishing 
 her strength. However much or however little 
 was gained to the Church of England during the 
 time the Church of Eome held the sway over 
 her, that amount, and much more that really 
 belonged to the Church of England before the 
 L
 
 144 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Conquest, was afterwards taken away from her, 
 by, and through, the connivance of the State ; 
 for the fact must be patent to all students of 
 our English history, that the Church of Eng- 
 land was much poorer after she was delivered 
 from the domination of the Church _ of Home, 
 than she was before she came under that domi- 
 nation, as the evidence of the times of the Con- 
 quest and after the Keformation fully proves." 
 
 "And once more. It will be observed that, in 
 the evidence I have brought before you, I have 
 not dealt with Episcopal and Cathedral endow- 
 ments ; time will not allow us to do this : I 
 would, however, observe that it is not true to 
 state as an ' historical fact,' as it has been stated, 
 that these establishments of the Church were 
 founded after the Conquest. Many of the Cathe- 
 drals were rebuilt after the Conquest, but they 
 were founded, and the main bulk of the endow- 
 ments for maintaining them were given and 
 acquired before the Conquest ; and in support of 
 this statement I would simply draw your atten- 
 tion to the account which Dugdale, in his 
 Monasticum (p. 273), gives us respecting the 
 dates when the following Cathedrals in the 
 Church of England were founded.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 145 
 
 A.D. A.D. 
 
 Canterbury 600 Wells 676 
 
 Gloucester 189 Lichfield 666 
 
 Rochester 600 Exeter 990 
 
 Winchester 639 Landaff 180 
 
 Worcester 683 St. Asaph 560 
 
 Chester 660 Durham 635 
 
 York 625 Oxford 727 
 
 St. David's 530 Peterborough 656 
 
 London 610 Ely 673 
 
 "It may therefore be taken for granted that the 
 Endowments for our Cathedrals, and the support for 
 their several staff of officers, as well as the Epis- 
 copal Endowments were originally provided by the 
 voluntary gifts of earnest and devoted Churchmen 
 in days long ago : for this also could be proved, 
 did time permit, in a similar manner to what has 
 been done in regard to Minsters or the ancient 
 monasteries, which were so useful to the Church of 
 England before they got into papal hands." 
 
 " And as regards the Re-building of some of our 
 Cathedrals during the period when the Church of 
 England was subjected to the Pope, we must 
 remember that they were rebuilt with English 
 money, and not with any money which came from
 
 146 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 the Church of Rome. The money for re-building 
 them was raised chiefly from property belonging to 
 the ancient foundations, and from the alms and 
 gifts of pious English Churchmen. The Church 
 of England was no gainer by the domination of 
 the Church of Rome, and certainly the Church of 
 Rome has no claim, or moral right, to any of our 
 ecclesiastical buildings ; to some of the Monasteries 
 founded before the Reformation, but which were 
 then taken away by the State, it might have some 
 claim, but not to our Cathedrals, and Minsters, 
 and Abbeys." 
 
 John Bull : " I am glad you make this appear 
 plain, because in the minds of many there is a 
 confused notion that the Roman Catholics had 
 some claim, or partly so, to them, and that it was 
 only national prejudice that denied them any title 
 to them." 
 
 Mother Church : "I have no doubt the Romanists 
 in this country endeavour to foster such an idea. 
 It is but a popular error, however, to suppose that 
 we are indebted for the money or means whereby 
 we erected our venerable Cathedrals and Minsters 
 to the Church of Rome. Not only did the Church 
 of Rome, proper, not contribute to the building of 
 them, but she took away very much money from
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 147 
 
 the Church of England, to erect and maintain her 
 own Churches;* so that, if a righteous balance 
 were made between the two, it would be found 
 that the Church of Eome was much in debt to the 
 Church of England, and that the Church of Eome 
 had no moral or just claim to any of the property 
 which the Church of England now possesses." 
 
 * At one time the Church of Rome fairly fleeced us. In the 
 reign of Henry III. the exactions from the Church of England 
 were something enormous. Hear what Hume says, whose state- 
 ments are corroborated by other authorities. " Pope Honorious, 
 in 1226, complaining of the poverty of the see (of Rome) as the 
 source of all grievances, demanded from every Cathedral two of 
 the best prebends, and from every Convent two monks' portions, 
 to be set apart as a perpetual and settled revenue of the Papal 
 Crown. . . . About three years after, the Pope demanded 
 and obtained the tenth of all ecclesiastical revenues, which he 
 levied in a very oppressive manner ; requiring payment before the 
 Clergy had drawn their rents or tithes, and sending about usurers 
 who advanced them money at exorbitant interest. In the year 
 1240, Otho the legate, having in vain attempted the Clergy in a 
 body, obtained separately, by intrigues and menaces, large sums 
 from the prelates and convents, and on his departure is said to 
 have carried more money out of the kingdom than he left in it. 
 This experiment was renewed four years after with success by 
 Martin the Nuncio, who brought from Rome powers of suspending 
 and excommunicating all clergymen who refused to comply with 
 his demands. The king, who relied on the pope for the support 
 of his tottering authority, never failed to countenance those exac- 
 tions. 
 
 " Meanwhile, all the chief benefices of the kingdom were con- 
 ferred on Italians : great numbers of that nation were sent over at 
 one time to be provided for ; nou-resideuce and pluralities were 
 carried to an enormous height." History of England, vol. II, 
 p. 159.
 
 148 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 " And now I have finished, for the present, 
 what I have to say respecting the Landed endow- 
 ments, as also the Buildings, of the Church, and 
 must leave the matter in your hands." 
 
 Madame Britannia : " Thank you, very much. 
 And in concluding our Conference to day, I would 
 take the privilege of saying to you, venerable 
 Lady, (addressing Mother Church), that you have 
 right nobly taken up the challenge thrown down 
 by your adversaries, you have thoroughly con- 
 tested the statements of those opposed to you, 
 and to my mind you have fully vindicated the 
 Right of the Church to the possession and use 
 of her endowments. I have little doubt but that 
 the verdict of the country will be decidedly in 
 your favour, when this cause becomes known to 
 them. And I think from the approving nods 
 which our friend here, Mr. Bull, has given, he 
 agrees with what I have said." 
 
 O 
 
 John Bull : " Yes, I do Madam ; for I was never 
 more thoroughly convinced of anything in all my 
 life than I am now, of the Eight of the Church 
 to her property ; and, from the proofs which have 
 been given, that she has a valid title to it also." 
 
 Mother Church here intimated that she had 
 most of her evidence ready as regarded the Tithes
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 149 
 
 belonging to the Church, as well as other points 
 of evidence to support what has been advanced 
 respecting the Church's, voluntarily endowments, 
 especially those which are Parochial, the which 
 she must now defer giving till a future occasion ; 
 and she begged as a favour that the time of their 
 next meeting together might be deferred to a later 
 period of the year, for, as she stated, she had 
 many things of importance to attend to, and some 
 of which could not be well delayed. 
 
 They all agreed to this, and thought it would 
 be better, and more convenient also to themselves. 
 They then bid adieu to each other, and parted.
 
 P A E T V. 
 
 After an interval of a few months, the Three 
 Venerable Ladies again met together by appoint- 
 ment, Mr. Bull also being present, as on former 
 occasions. After the usual greetings and. expres- 
 sions of goodwill and kindly feeling had been 
 made, 
 
 Madam Britannia opened the way for discussion 
 by saying, " I think the subject for our considera- 
 tion to-day is, the Right which the Church has to 
 the Endowment of Tithes; and, if I remember 
 rightly, our venerable friend, Mother Church, pro- 
 mised to lay before us some clear statement as to 
 the origin of Tithes, and on what grounds the 
 Church possesses a lawful right to them." 
 
 John Bull : " I shall gladly sit and listen to the 
 discussion on this subject, as there appears to be a 
 great many difficulties and objections raised about 
 it which has a tendency to confuse men's minds, 
 and to perplex them, so that they are unable to 
 
 M
 
 152 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 decide for themselves quite clearly as to the matter. 
 I shall be right well pleased, therefore, to hear the 
 plain truth about Tithes from those who have 
 studied the subject, in the face of these difficultiea 
 and objections." 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " It is true 
 that some doubt and uncertainty has of late been 
 thrown over the right which the Church has to 
 this kind of property ; but this, we must remem- 
 ber, arises from those who are enemies to the 
 Church, and who purposely design to deprive the 
 Church of her lawful property in this respect, and 
 therefore, begin their attack by bringing forwards 
 and heaping up all manner of objections. But I 
 charge them, as in other matters, so in this, with 
 a suppression of the truth, with gross misrepre- 
 sentations of the subject, and with purposely 
 twisting statements and facts to effect their de- 
 sign. And I contend, that if this can be clearly 
 proved against them, then, as in the case of 
 witnesses in a court of justice, their statement! 
 and evidences must fall to the ground and be set 
 aside. 
 
 " I stand by the side of my venerable friend to 
 assist her in her defence of her rights, and if I may 
 be permitted, I will give you an illustration or
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 153 
 
 proof of what I have advanced from the words of 
 one of the leaders of this attack against the 
 Church, and the manner in which a false colouring 
 is given to the subject in various points, and where 
 matters have been kept back which would have 
 helped to substantiate the Church's right to 
 Tithes. For during our recess, I have taken some 
 pains to look into the matter. Mr. Miall, in his 
 book called 'The Title-Deeds of the Church/ 
 states that ' the Christian Church knew nothing of 
 Tithes for above 400 years after the Ascension of 
 her Lord to the throne of His spiritual kingdom/* 
 and then he gives a reference to Selden in support 
 of what he says. But Selden's words are some- 
 what different to his, and he omits to say what 
 Selden says on this point in a review of his book 
 at the end, which Selden implores his readers to 
 take up and read with the former part; and we 
 there find him saying, ' I was not so bold as to 
 make the negative that no Tithes were paid, but 
 that it could not be proved that any were.' ' He 
 that can show me ought omitted that might prove 
 it, shall deserve and have thanks of me.'t But 
 what Selden dare not say, Mr. Miall dare, though 
 
 Chap. II. p. 6. 
 + Selden on Tithes, p. 460, 461.
 
 154 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 he has chiefly to depend for his facts upon Selden;* 
 and, moreover, Mr. Miall keeps back part of the 
 truth, which is stated by Selden, for he does not 
 tell us that Selden would not speak positively, or, 
 at least, that he spoke hesitatingly or doubtfully 
 upon the points, as if it were possible that evidence 
 might be forthcoming to show that Tithes were 
 paid during the first 400 years. Then, again, 
 , Selden says, in the beginning of his 5th chapter, 
 'About the beginning of the next (400 years), or 
 rather some years before the end of the first part of 
 this division, and afterwards, Tentlis were paid, or 
 for holy uses offered (as the phrase was) in divers 
 places, in offerings of that quantity ; and some tes- 
 timony is of Churches also endowed with the per- 
 petual right of them in the latter half of this four 
 hundred years. Great opinion was now of their 
 
 * Mr. Miall bad been taunted, that nearly all the learning 
 which he exhibited was second-hand, and chiefly borrowed from 
 Selden's work ; and, in his 2nd edition, 1871, he appears to be 
 very angry at the remarks made by his critics, but is compelled 
 to allow the truth of what is stated, for he says : "The reply is 
 easy. But for the aid offered by Selden, it is probable that I 
 should not have undertaken my task, or, rather, not have dealt 
 with the subject in precisely the manner I did. I joyfully and 
 openly accepted the results of the immense and unequalled learn- 
 ing of that author."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 155 
 
 being due!* But let us go back to the very words 
 which Mr. Miall mistakes and misrepresents. The 
 heading of the 4th chapter in Selden begins thus : 
 1 No use of Tithes occurs till about the end of this 
 [first] four hundred years.' And after a few intro- 
 ductory words, Selden says, ' Till towards the end 
 of the first four hundred years no payment of them 
 can be proved to have been in use. Some opinion 
 is of their being due.'* Surely these words mean 
 that, towards the end of the first four hundred 
 years, some proof s might lie adduced of payment of 
 Tithes, not, as Mr. Miall has it, that Christians 
 knew nothing of Tithes for above 400 years after 
 the Ascension that is, till about A.D. 430. 
 Mr. Miall, therefore, in this point, says the very 
 opposite thing to Selden, who is his authority for 
 what he states. Then Mr. Miall keeps back the 
 reason, which Mr. Selden gives, why we must not 
 expect to meet with proofs of Tithes, as such, being 
 paid earlier. ' For the first,' says Selden, ' 'tis best 
 declared by showing the course of the Church 
 maintenance in that time. So liberal, in the be- 
 ginning of Christianity, was the devotion of Be- 
 lievers, that their bounty to the Evangelical priest- 
 
 Selden, p. 46. t Ibid, p. 35
 
 156 THB THREE VENERABLE 
 
 hood far exceeded wJutt the tenth could have been. 
 For, if you look to the first of the Apostles' times, 
 then the unity of heart among them about Jerusa- 
 lem was such that all was in common, and none 
 wanted, and ' As many as were possessors of lands 
 or houses sold them, and brought the price of the 
 things that were sold and laid them at the Apostles' 
 feet, and it was distributed to every man as he had 
 need.' And the whole Church, both lay and 
 clergy, then lived in common as the monks did 
 afterwards about the end of the first 400 years, as 
 St. Chrysostom notes.'* And, again, in his Eeview 
 at the end, Selden says, ' But it has been little to 
 the purpose, indeed, to have had Tithes of annual 
 increase paid, while that most bountiful devotion 
 of good Christians continued in frequent offerings, 
 both of lands and goods to such large value. Also, 
 questionless, the liberal devotion of the time was 
 very exceeding in offerings. '"f* Can it be honest in 
 Mr. Miall, I ask, or is he giving a fair representa- 
 tion, think you, of the subject, when he keeps such 
 a reason out of sight, when it stands directly in his 
 way in Selden's book ? Why he omits it is but too 
 
 " So they live now in monasteries, as then the Believer* 
 lived." Homil. Act* II. v. 44. 
 
 t Selden, p. 562.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 157 
 
 obvious, it militates against his argument, and 
 upports that of the Church." 
 
 Mother Church : " I may, perhaps, here at this 
 point be allowed to say respecting Selden, that, 
 though a Puritan, he was a man of undoubted 
 learning and great research, as well as one of the 
 ablest lawyers of his time. But those who read 
 his book will notice that he is continually trying to 
 throw discredit on ancient testimony, and set i* 
 aside as valueless. Of course it is always difficult 
 to vouch for statements in those remote times, 
 still there is much that we may credit; and Mr. 
 Selden seems to have gone to the opposite extreme ; 
 nevertheless, there is this to be urged, that 
 what he does state, and passes as worthy of 
 credit, on suet a subject, may be the more safely 
 credited, as Laving passed through a searching 
 ordeal. I woild only make this other remark, 
 that when Selden wrote this book of Tithes, he was 
 not yet 33 years old ; and that other authors having 
 taken the subject up, showing where he had erred, 
 and given a w?ong view of the points he had 
 touched, he, in ifter years, is fain to confess that 
 he had made some mistakes. I name this because, 
 though there is much that we can approve of in 
 Selden's work, tlere are some points in which we
 
 158 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 cannot hold with him.* I hope my kind friend 
 will pardon this interruption, but I thought it 
 better to make these remarks before proceeding 
 further." 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " I thank 
 you, for the remarks come seasonably, and are 
 needed. But to proceed with my allegations. Mr. 
 Miall says : ' The public laws of England, and not 
 the private liberality of individuals, created the 
 Tithe system, as a provision for the maintenance 
 of the clergy of this country.'f But surely the 
 clergy were maintained before any public laws 
 were made about Tithes, and how, bus by the pri- 
 
 Dean Comber says of Selden that, " forgetting his fair pro- 
 fessions (see his preface), he conceals some of (he best proofs for 
 Tithes, rejects others, and questions all that seem to establish 
 the Divine Right or universal practice of Tithgs, greedily search- 
 ing after, and plausibly setting off, all that appear to make against 
 it. Yet I am confident divers have stretcled some passage* 
 of this book further than ever Mr. S. intended, and have drawn 
 conclusions which he (if yet alive) would bluih to see." Preface 
 to Comber on Tithes. 
 
 Selden is also severely handled by Montague, afterwards Bishop 
 of Winchester, in his " Diatribas." Dr. Tifesly also, in another 
 work, convicts Selden of many errors. Thie who study Selden, 
 and are curious to note his errors, will fiid a number of them 
 pointed out and controverted in Collier's Ecclesiastical History, 
 Book vii., p. 39. 
 
 + Miall a Title-Deeds of the Church of England, p. 26.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 159 
 
 vate liberality of individuals ; and Selden expressly 
 admits that, some hundreds of years before the 
 English laws were made, Tithes were paid and 
 considered to be due, pp. 35, 46. This you must 
 perceive is the very opposite of Mr. Miall's asser- 
 tion, and cuts the ground from under his feet. 
 And, it was because Tithes were considered to be 
 due to the Church, as the common law of the 
 realm the jus commune or folk-right that one 
 charter after another was made to protect the 
 right of the Church in this matter, so that those 
 who cared not for religion, might not escape pay- 
 ment, as they so often tried to do. But as you, 
 my venerable friend, (turning to Mother Church) 
 have already made some suitable observations on 
 this point,' (See pp. 91-93,) I will pass on to 
 another. 
 
 "Alluding to an Act of Parliament passed in 
 Edward VI.'s reign (2 and 3, ch. 13, sec. 5), Mr. 
 Miall, after making various calculations as to what 
 land was formerly under cultivation, in comparison 
 of what is now cultivated, says, 'there remains, 
 therefore, only one-fourth of the Tithe property now 
 existing which could by any possibility have grown 
 out of lay liberality.'* Well, this is certainly an 
 
 * Miall's Title-Deeds, p. 56.
 
 160 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 important admission, after he started out with 
 the positive assertion, which he puts in italics at 
 the beginning of his book, ' that they (Tithes) 
 neither did, nor in the nature of things could, 
 originate in private individual liberality.'* But 
 to admit what he has done destroys the truth- 
 fulness of this grand assertion of his with which 
 he sets out, or, at least, shows that he has made 
 a very reckless and unwarrantable statement. The 
 truth evidently appears to be this : Mr. Miall 
 had been Booking somewhat more closely into the 
 question, in order to support the position he 
 had taken up he has made great search into 
 Selden, and he is now somewhat shaken in his 
 mind about the truth of what he had stated at 
 the beginning, and thinks it even possible that 
 one fourth might possibly Juive grown out of 
 lay liberality.' 
 
 " But now see what he says further with respect 
 to the results of the Act in Edward VI.'s reign- 
 He goes on to say, 'The other three-fourths are 
 directly traceable, not to private grants, not even 
 to custom or common law, but to the legislation of 
 Parliament. Three fourths of the parochial endow- 
 ments of the Church of England [consisting of 
 
 Ibid, p. 5.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 161 
 
 Tithes],* have their root in an Act of Parliament 
 passed a little more than three hundred years ago. 
 Let that fact be explained away, if it can be, by 
 those who contend for the sacredness and inalien- 
 ability of Tithe endowments, on the ground of their 
 being consecrated by individual piety.'-f- 
 
 "Now, how is this grave statement of Mr. 
 Miall's to be met ? I reply, By simply denying 
 its truth ; there is no ground for the assertion he 
 makes; he has made a serious mistake, and it 
 arises from his not reading or understanding the 
 Act aright, for I will not in this point accuse him 
 of a wilful design to misrepresent the matter ; I 
 accuse him here not of knowingly perverting the 
 truth, but of obtuseness of comprehension. The 
 Act was made really for the benefit of the Farmer, 
 who made improvements, and not for the benefit 
 of the Tithe-owner; for the latter was restrained 
 for seven years from getting more Tithes than he 
 had formerly done on reclaimed lands, or lands 
 
 * These words had been omitted in the former edition, but in- 
 troduced into the 2nd edition, 1871, for it had been pointed out 
 to him that his words were altogether inapplicable to the other 
 endowments of the Church. Indeed, he frequently in his 1st 
 edition makes a jumble of other endowments with that of Tithe*, 
 which has led many that follow him into gross errors. 
 
 f Miall's Title-Deeds, pp. 57, 57.
 
 162 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 otherwise improved. But let me give you the 
 words of a certain barrister-at-law, who has care- 
 fully examined this point. He says : ' To contra- 
 dict the statement and to prove its absurdity is not 
 difficult. Three-fourths of the endowments of the 
 parochial incumbents of the Church of England 
 had not their root in this Act of Parliament.'* 
 Then, Mr. Pulruan, goes on to show how the Act 
 is to be read, and that Mr. Miall's statement is 
 not borne out by the Act, and concludes by 
 saying, 'that this Act of Parliament 'called Tithes 
 into existence,' is not a fact, nor is it law' This 
 is plain, for by it Tithes have only to be paid 
 on lands which were titheable beforehand; but, 
 in order to encourage farmers and owners of 
 property to bring their land into cultivation, 
 they were not to be charged any more Tithes, 
 for seven years, than they had hitherto paid, so that 
 farmers might reap for that period the advantage 
 of their toil ; the Act, in short, did what a wise 
 landlord might do, who would say to his tenant, 
 ' if you choose to bring those lands which yield 
 little or nothing into cultivation, you shall not 
 pay me more for them than what you have for- 
 merly done for seven years, but after that period 
 
 * Pulman's Anti-State Church, &c., Unmasked, p. 126.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 163 
 
 you must pay me the proper and marketable rent 
 for them.' A special exception is made in the Act 
 for lands not tith cable before this. The words of 
 the Act are as follows ; and, by carefully reading 
 it over, you will soon see the gross error into which 
 Mr. Miall has fallen. Section 4th, which Mr. Miall 
 omits : 
 
 'No person shall be sued or otherwise compelled 
 to yield, give or pay any manner of Tithes for any 
 Manor, Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments, which 
 by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm, or by any 
 privilege or prescription are not chargeable with the 
 payment of such Tithes, or be discharged by any 
 composition real.' 
 
 This is in itself a sufficient reply to Mr. Miall's 
 assertion. Section 5, which he does quote, and 
 which should be read after what goes before, is as 
 follows : 
 
 ' That all such barren heath and waste ground, other 
 than such as be discharged for the payment of Tithe$ 
 by Act of Parliament, which before this time have lain 
 barren, and paid no Tithe by reason of the sams 
 barrenness, and now be, or hereafter shall be improved 
 and converted into arable ground or meadow, shall 
 from henceforth after the end and term of seven years 
 next after such improvement fully ended and deter-
 
 164 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 mined, pay Tithe for the corn and hay growing on 
 the same.* 
 
 "(Read together, we see that this payment of 
 Tithes after seven years applies only to lands 
 already chargeable with Tithe, but had not paid 
 Tithe by reason of barrenness. This view is 
 further proved by what follows in Section 6, 
 which Mr. Miall also omits, which relates to cases 
 where a small amount had formerly been paid for 
 waste or barren land, and in such cases the 
 amount shall not be increased till after the seven 
 years. 
 
 " Moreover, Mr. Miall's calculations of three- 
 fourths are notoriously wrong, inasmuch as they 
 are founded upon the supposition that the clergy 
 receive the Tithes, or a composition for them, upon 
 all lands now under cultivation, which is not true; 
 for there are many lands brought into cultivation 
 up and down the country, which have been exempt 
 from paying Tithe. 
 
 "Mr. Miall has also been very unfortunate in 
 fixing upon the period of Edward VI.'s reign as a 
 time when he imagines an Act of Parliament was 
 passed which ' called Tithes into existence,' for it 
 
 a and 8 Ed. VI., chap. 13, A.D. 1548.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 165 
 
 was notoriously a time when Parliament suffered 
 the Church to be niched and robbed to an enor- 
 mous extent, so as to impoverish her to such a 
 degree that she was not able to cope with the 
 religious requirements of the period, and in con- 
 sequence of which the people began to support 
 ministers of their own, which brought in much 
 religious dissension and even persecution. And 
 this period, in which Mr. Miall has so unfortunately 
 chosen to imagine such an accession of Tithe pro- 
 perty coming to the Church, is the one, which his 
 favourite author, Selden, especially marks out as 
 being that, in which the property of the Church 
 was so woefully laid waste by the secular arm, 
 
 * After alluding to ' ' the prodigal dispensation ... on those 
 vho stood ready to devour that which was sanctified," Selden 
 adds, "But I abstain from censure, and add here by the way a 
 complaint made to the Parliament, not long after the dissolution, 
 touching the abuse that followed in the Church through laymen's 
 possessing of Appropriated Churches and Tithes. It deserves to 
 ba seriously thought on, continues Selden, by every layman that now 
 enjoys any of them, especially where Divine service is not carefully 
 provided for. Addressing 'the Lords and Burgesses of Parlia- 
 ment,' the complaint commences, ,' I require of you, in the name 
 of my poor brethren that are Englishmen and members of Christ's 
 Body, that ye consider well (as ye will answer before the face of 
 Almighty God, in the Day of Judgment) this abuse, and see it 
 amended.' Further on, the complaint says, ' Your pretence of 
 putting down Abbeys, was to amend that was amiss in them.
 
 166 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 If, then, Mr. Miall had not been so grievously 
 blinded by his malevolent assault on the Church, 
 it would certainly have been impressed upon his 
 mind that this was not a likely time for Parlia- 
 ment to make an Act, whereby the Church should 
 acquire such a large increase of Tithes. 
 
 " I will not adduce other instances of errors, 
 
 . . . But see now how it that was amiss is amended, for all the 
 godly pretence. It is amended even as the Devil amended his 
 Dame's leg (as it is in the Proverb), when be should La\c set it 
 right, he brake it quite to pieces. The monks gave too little alms, 
 and set unable persons many times in their benefices. But now 
 where zx. pound was given yearly to the poor, in more than a 
 hundred places in England is not one meals' meat given. This is 
 a ' feare ' amendment. Where they had always one or other 
 vicar, that either preached, or hired some to preach, now is there 
 DO vicar at all ; but the farmer is vicar and parson altogether, and 
 only an old cast-away friar or monk, which can scarce say hit 
 mattins, ishiredfor twenty or thirty shillings, meat and drink, yea, 
 in some places for meat and drink alone, without any wages. I 
 know, nnd not I alone, but twenty thousand more, know more 
 than 500 vicarages and parsonages thus well and Gospelly served, 
 after the new Gospel of England.' And then Selden adds, ' And 
 BO the Author goes on with sharp admonitions to laymen, tha 
 fed themselves fat with the Tithes of such Churches, while the 
 souls of the Parishioners suffered great famine for want of a fit 
 pastor, that is, for want of fit maintenance for him, for without 
 that, he is scarce to be hoped for.' Did Mr. Miall never see these 
 words ? And why is it that whilst Selden HO severely condemns 
 this confiscation of Tithe property, Mr Miall is so anxious 
 that Parliament should again consent to despoil the Church of it '
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 167 
 
 though many others are to be found, as noted by 
 Mr. Pulinan, -who states that Selden, Burns, Acts 
 of Parliament in other places, Macaulay, and other 
 authors referred to by Mr. Miall, are uniformly 
 misrepresented in their statements."* 
 
 John Bull : " Well ; no wonder people are per- 
 plexed and in some uncertainty about the question 
 of Tithes, when such a pack of errors, as we have 
 here, are foisted on them. It is like throwing 
 dust into people's eyes to prevent their having a 
 notion of what is the right view to take of them. 
 And I suppose that all those who look upon Mr. 
 Miall as a kind of leader against the Church, take 
 all that he says 'for Gospel.' Its just, to my 
 mind, a case of the ' blind leaders of the blind.'" 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadneedle Street : " Yes, 
 this is the worst of it : and the evil grows, and 
 gathers strength, to a marvellous degree : for, as 
 it appears, from the little work by a Baptist min- 
 ister, entitled ' Church Property : what is it, and 
 whose ? ' and from the letters of some Dissenting 
 preachers, which I have seen, and to which you 
 have already alluded, Mr. Bull, there are many 
 political Dissenting preachers who not only repeat 
 many of Mr. Miall's errors, but often magnify 
 
 * Pulman, p. 34. 
 
 N
 
 1G8 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 them, and doubtless frequently retail them out to 
 their hearers, till they believe in them ; the one is 
 too ready to give utterance, and the other too 
 ready to believe any kind of tale, if it be only 
 against the Church : and thus a powerful section 
 of the community is ever embittered against the 
 Church, and led to join in this unchristian crusade 
 against her." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " This is a sad state of 
 things ; and one much to be lamented, for there is 
 little prospect of peace or satisfaction to be ex- 
 pected so long as these people are so wofully mis- 
 led. I think, however, Madam, that you have 
 discharged a most important duty in your endea- 
 vour to expose these errors, as it will help to take 
 the veil off men's eyes, and the better enable 
 them to see the true state of the case, and to judge 
 for themselves." 
 
 John Bull : " Yes, Madam, that is what is 
 wanted. We want to know the truth ! For the 
 people of England are, at the bottom, sound and 
 honest, and like to see justice done; and will reso- 
 lutely stand up for it too, let them but be truly 
 incensed with the right of it." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " And now, if it be agree- 
 able to you all, I should like to hear what our
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 169 
 
 venerable friend, Mother Church, has to say upon 
 the subject." 
 
 Mother Church : " The time has been well spent 
 hitherto, I consider ; and I must again thank my 
 worthy friend for the service she has done me in 
 the cause which I have in hand. Some points of 
 history to which I may allude may be known to 
 you already, but forasmuch as the subject has been 
 so much questioned that many persons have got 
 but a hazy notion of the truth of the matter, I 
 shall endeavour to set it before you in some order, 
 to the best of my ability. 
 
 "It is a settled point, which our opponents 
 admit, and which we are willing to take for 
 granted, that the first civil enactment, for the whole 
 of England, to obtain the regular and perpetual 
 payment of Tithes, was the Charter, granted by 
 King Ethel wulf about the year 855. We have, 
 however, the account of a civil enactment to 
 enforce the payment of Tithes, as due, for large 
 portions of the island before this, i.e., during the 
 Heptarchy ; but it could not well be made for the 
 whole island much sooner than the time I have 
 named, because, as it is well known to the readers 
 of History, that England did not become a united 
 kingdom until the year 827, when Egbert, the first
 
 170 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 king, brought the Heptarchy to an end. He was 
 sometime, as might be expected, in consolidating 
 his new kingdom as a whole. Ethelwulf was his 
 son and successor ; and it was by the advice and 
 consent of the great men of his kingdom, assem- 
 bled in Council, that this Charter, to which we 
 have alluded to, was given. 
 
 " I need not trouble you with the whole of the 
 Charter, but the portion which we are most con- 
 cerned to know runs thus, when translated : 
 
 ' I, Ethelwulf, by the grace of God, King of the 
 West Saxons, with the advice of the Bishops, Earls, 
 and all the persons of condition in my dominions, 
 have for the health of my soul, the good of my people, 
 and the prosperity of my kingdom, fixed upon a 
 prudent and serviceable resolution of granting the 
 tenth part of the lands throughout our kingdom to 
 the Holy Churches and ministers of religion, offi- 
 ciating, and settled in them, with all the advantages 
 of a free tenure and estate.'* 
 
 " There is a second Charter by the same king, 
 recorded by Ingulph, the old Saxon chronicler, in 
 which allusion is made to the ravages of war, and 
 the depredations of enemies, as the occasion or 
 
 * Vide Collier's Eccles. Hist., Book iii., p. 368.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 171 
 
 necessity which led him to resolve upon a whole- 
 some and uniform remedy.* 
 
 " Now before we proceed to trace the history of 
 Tithes further up the stream of time, or trace it 
 downwards from this period, it is desirable 
 whilst on this acknowledged standing-ground, to 
 consider what is the weight and significance of 
 this grant of Tithes to the Church, and the cir- 
 cumstances attending it. 
 
 " And the first consideration we should notice 
 is this, that Tithes had been paid, and generally 
 considered due as a right, before this. It was one 
 great means of maintenance to the clergy long 
 before Ethelwulf s time, and it was not now for 
 the first time they enjoyed them. Many owners 
 of property (it was then in fewer hands than it is 
 now) recognised their obligation to religion in this 
 respect, and made their lands chargeable with 
 Tithes, and not only paid Tithes themselves as 
 owing to the Church, but handed down their pro- 
 perty to their successors with this charge upon it. 
 
 * The other Charter is dated the year before, i.e., A.D. 854. 
 And Collier is of opinion, from its wording, that the first related 
 to the "Tithes of the king's demesnes or crown lands." And that 
 the one the year after, " made by the consent of the nobility and 
 people, enlarged the bounty, and extended it to the whole 
 kingdom," p. 368.
 
 172 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 As the people became Christians, property was 
 generally received on the understanding that a 
 tenth portion could be claimed by the Church : 
 for the ancient Saxons called it 'God's right/ 
 God's fee ;' and the laws of King Withred forbid 
 laymen possessing things anciently given to God, 
 A.D. 694 And, again, A.D. 697, he enjoined that 
 ' the Church should have its revenues.'* The 
 practice or custom must therefore have been in 
 existence some time before this. But more of this 
 presently. There were, however, some, as you 
 may imagine, who cared not for religion, who 
 regarded the paying of Tithes as so much of their 
 own which they had to give up, and would try to 
 avoid paying them, and regarded it as a matter 
 in which they could please themselves : and as 
 there was then no law to compel the payment of 
 Tithes, or only such as had fallen into abeyance, 
 the Church was frequently robbed of her lawful 
 maintenance ; and it was necessary that the ruling 
 powers in the land, and those who had authority 
 to decree and uphold what was right in the 
 country, should recognise the Church's right in 
 this respect, and make it distinctly understood 
 
 * Spel. Concil. Tom i., pp. 189 and 194.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 173 
 
 that in every part of the country they must be 
 paid, as lawfully due to the Church : hence the 
 Charter of Ethelwulf. 
 
 " Hume, the great historian of English history, 
 has made some sarcastic remarks upon the grant- 
 ing of this Charter, which has been quoted and 
 put forward by our opponents, but from which we 
 may gather some truth. He says : 
 
 'The ecclesiastics, in those days of ignorance, 
 . . . not content with the donations of land 
 made them by the princes and nobles, and with 
 temporary oblations from the devotions of the 
 people, had cast a wistful eye upon a vast 
 revenue, which they claimed as belonging to them 
 by a sacred and indefeasible title. . . . During 
 some centuries the whole scope of sermons and 
 homilies was directed to this purpose ; and one 
 would have imagined, from the general tenour of 
 these discourses, that all the practical parts of 
 Christianity were comprised in the exact and 
 faithful payment of tithes to the clergy. . . 
 Though parishes had been instituted in England 
 by Honorious, Archbishop of Canterbury, near 
 two centuries before, the ecclesiastics had never 
 been able to get possession of the Tithes; they 
 therefore seized the present favourable opportunity
 
 174 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of making that acquisition when a weak, supersti- 
 tious prince filled the throne, &c.'* 
 
 " Now it must be borne in mind that Hume was 
 a Deist, and could not view religion, of any sort, 
 with favour : with him all religion was folly, and 
 repentance was weakness. Supposing Ethelwulf 
 had been a weak prince and perhaps he was in 
 comparison with his father ; yet this could not be 
 the case with 'the Bishops, Earls, and all the 
 persons of condition in his dominion.' Could they 
 all be weak ? There was surely strength of mind 
 and will amongst these men to have resisted any 
 unreasonable attempt to impose upon them any 
 unjust or mere superstitious grant, if they had 
 conceived this grant of Ethelwulfs to have been 
 such. But as they did not, and as it appeared, on 
 the contrary, that this grant was made by their 
 advice, it is quite evident they considered it to be 
 a proper, just, and reasonable thing to be done. 
 
 "The expression used in Ethelwulfs Charter, 
 viz., his ' granting the tenth part of the land,' does 
 not imply that the clergy had not a right to the 
 Tithes before this, or that this was the original 
 grant of them ; but that Ethelwulf herein, as the 
 sovereign of the land, granted the Church a legal 
 
 * Hume's Hist. Eng., vol. i., pp. 84, 85.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 175 
 
 title to the Tithes, so that the clergy might enforce 
 their claim to them by law, and call in the autho- 
 rity of the civil power to compel the payment of 
 them whenever the Tithes were withheld ; for 
 hitherto in many cases they had been unable to 
 recover them from thosej who had little regard 
 for religion, although these persons, on coming 
 into possession of their several properties, knew 
 that the Tithes were due to the Church, as of 
 right. The owners of the soil had a more prompt 
 and direct means of redress. Should their tenants 
 refuse them rent, service, or a fixed portion of 
 their produce, they could seize upon what they 
 considered equivalent, or turn the tenants off, or, 
 being serfs, administer summary punishment for 
 defalcation ; but the tenth portion which belonged 
 to the Church, by prescription, could not thus be 
 recovered, and being often withheld, and the fraud 
 connived at by covetous or ungodly landlords, the 
 clergy. were frequently deprived of their main- 
 tenance ; it was therefore found necessary to make 
 the payment legal and obligatory upon all, by the 
 highest authority in the land, viz., by the king in 
 a council of the realm. But this insuring the 
 due payment of Tithes to the Church, through 
 this grant of a legal Title, whereby the civil
 
 176 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 power assured the Church of its support in obtain- 
 ing them regularly for the future, was a very 
 different thing from making a gift of them, as of 
 something that did not already belong to them ; 
 for, as I hope to show you still further, Tithes 
 were given and received before this. 
 
 "Keferring to the grant, 'we are to bear in 
 mind,' says Dean Hook, 'that an Anglo-Saxon 
 king was only the chieftain of the people, not the 
 owner of the soil. Although he possessed certain 
 rights and claimed certain dues, he was only one 
 among the landed proprietors : Ethelwulf could 
 not give what he did not possess, he simply 
 devoted to religious and charitable purposes a 
 tenth part of his private estates, and released 
 from all payments due to him as king a tenth 
 part of the land unfranchised.'* Another well- 
 known writer of Anglo-Saxon history states also 
 respecting the grant of Ethelwulf that, ' It has 
 been considered as the legislative enactment by 
 which the lands were first subjected to the pay- 
 ment of Tithes to the clergy ; but the right of the 
 Church had already been recognised in the most 
 unequivocal manner.' f 
 
 * Lives of the Archbishops of Canterbury, I. 287. 
 t Palgrave, I., 159.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 177 
 
 "Moreover, we have this argument in favour of 
 the Church's ancient right to Tithes to bring in 
 here, that from the mention of the King acting 
 ' by the advice of the Bishops, Earls, and all the 
 persons of condition in his dominion,' it is evident 
 that they were the principal owners of land in the 
 kingdom, who were then present, and, that as 
 such, they had a perfect right, as much as men of 
 property have in these days, to make a grant of 
 Tithes from their own lands, in perpetuity to the 
 Church, by and through the King as their head 
 and representative. Therefore, if even this occa- 
 sion of making a grant by Charter had been 
 indeed the first bestowak of Tithes, it would give 
 the Church the best title and security for the 
 enjoyment of the Tithes that could be given : how 
 much more then does it serve to establish the right 
 of the Church to this kind of endowment, when 
 the Charter appears to have been, as it was, a con- 
 firmation of an acknowledged payment due to the 
 Church, which had grown up among them, and 
 had come to be looked upon generally as belonging 
 to the Church from earlier days, though withheld 
 by some who cared not for religion." 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " Neither 
 can it be said, as it has been hinted, that the
 
 178 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 grant was forced upon these great men, who were 
 the chief possessors of land in the country, when 
 it is confessedly acknowledged that Ethelwulf was 
 ' a weak prince.' It is both indefensible and ridicu- 
 lous to suppose that these sturdy Anglo-Saxons, 
 Earls and all the persons of condition in the king's 
 dominion, would have suffered Ethelwulf, at the 
 instigation of the clergy, to have wrested a tenth 
 portion of the produce of their lands from them, 
 even for pious purposes, unless they felt, as they 
 undoubtedly did, that the Church had some right 
 and claim to it. Such a thing could not be done 
 then, any moie than it could be done now. The 
 very statement of the transaction itself is sufficient 
 to prove that such an attempt would never have 
 been made, and that the great council of the 
 nation would never have consented to have a por- 
 tion of their property severally taken from them 
 at the arbitrary dictation of a Sovereign, who alto- 
 gether depended upon them for support against his 
 enemies who continually threatened him. No ! 
 the very expression, that this Charter granting the 
 Tithes, was given ' by the advice of the Earls and all 
 the persons of condition,' shows that they readily 
 consented to it, if they did not urge it upon the 
 King, as a matter of right to be done to the
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 179 
 
 Church, that he, as the representative of lawful 
 authority, should make this grant for securing, not 
 creating, the Tithes, already considered as belong- 
 ing to the Church. According to Judge Black- 
 stone, it was the grand and fundamental maxim 
 of ancient English tenure, that all lands were 
 granted out by the Sovereign, and that no change, 
 transfer, or even mortgage could be made, or be 
 counted valid, without leave or grant to do this 
 from the Crown*; it was therefore as the Lord Para- 
 mount of the soil, that Ethelwulf made the grant, 
 and it cannot be regarded as an act of despotism, 
 whereby he made the owners of property pay 
 Tithes, and accept as a perpetual charge upon their 
 property the payment of Tithes, whether they liked 
 it or not. Do not, however, let me further inter- 
 rupt my friend in her statement." 
 
 Mother Church : " Thank you ; you do not in- 
 terrupt me, but rather supplement what I might 
 have omitted; but to proceed. That Tithes be- 
 longed to, and were acknowledged as the right of 
 the Church before Etlidwulfs days, also, we have 
 further satisfactory evidence to produce. Judge 
 Blackstone 'on the Laws of England' says, 'We 
 cannot precisely ascertain the time when Tithes 
 
 Blackstone's Com., Vol. ii., 54, 58, 60.
 
 180 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 were first introduced into this country. Possible 
 they were contemporary with the planting of 
 Christianity among the Saxons by Augustine the 
 monk, about the end of the sixth century. But 
 the first mention of them, which I have met with 
 in any ivrittcn English law, is a constitutional 
 decree, made in Synod, held A.D. 786, wherein the 
 payment of Tithes is strongly enjoined. This 
 canon or decree, which at first bound not the laity, 
 was effectually confirmed by two kingdoms of the 
 Heptarchy, respectively consisting of the Kings of 
 Mercia and Northumberland, the Bishops, Dukes, 
 Senators and people.'* The law of Offa, which is 
 here referred to, is thus worded. 'Wherefore with 
 obtestation we enjoin that all be careful to pay 
 Tithes of all they possess, because they are the 
 special property of the Lord our God ; and main- 
 tain themselves, and give alms of the nine paits/'f' 
 i.e., on the nine parts, which belong to them, they 
 are to live and make voluntary offerings as they 
 like, but the tenth part is not theirs, but belongs 
 to the Church, and therefore payment of this is 
 obligatory upon them. Selden remarks upon it, 
 ' it is a most observable law to this purpose, being 
 
 * Blackstoue, Com., Vol. ii., p. 28. 
 t Selden, ch. viii., p. 200.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 181 
 
 made with such solemnity by both powers of both 
 states of Mercland and Northumberland, which 
 took up a very great part of England ; and it is 
 likely that it was made general to all England!* 
 This law of Offa, you will observe, then, carries us 
 up the stream of history to a period before that of 
 Ethelwulf, to a period during the Heptarchy; 
 and as Judge Blackstone intimates, in the passage 
 I have before quoted, Tithes were paid before this. 
 This statement is further confirmed by Burns, who 
 says speaking of the time of Offa, 'That Tithes 
 were before paid in England, by way of offerings, 
 according to the ancient usages and decrees of the 
 Church, appears from the Canons of Egbert, Arch- 
 bishop of York, about the year of 750 ; and from 
 an epistle of Boniface, Archbishop of Mentz, which 
 he wrote to Cuthbert, Archbishop of Canterbury, 
 about the same time: and from the 17th Canon 
 of the General Council of Calcuith, A,D. 787. But 
 this law of Offa was that which gave the Church 
 a civil right in them, by way of property and in- 
 heritance, and enabled the clergy to gather and 
 recover them as their legal due, by coercion of the 
 civil power.'* And it is further to be observed, 
 
 Ibid, p. 201. 
 f Burns' Eccl. Laws, Nol. iii., p. 679.
 
 182 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 that these documents to which Burns refers, speak 
 of the payment of Tithes as then existing. John- 
 son, giving a further account, says, ' We cannot 
 doubt but Tithes were paid in England at' this 
 time, and before. Boniface in the year 693 was 
 twenty years of age, and he testifies that Tithes 
 were paid in the English Church, in his letter to 
 Cuthbert; and there is reason to believe that they 
 were paid freely and fully, or else the King (Ina) 
 who made so severe a law for paying the Church- 
 scot, would have made a severer for paying Tithes, 
 as some Kings did some, hundred years after this, 
 when the people's first fervour abated. The Church- 
 scot was a new taxation, and therefore not readily 
 paid. TUhcs were from the beginning, and there- 
 fore paid witlwut repining'* From the 17th 
 Canon of Calcuith also, it would appear that al- 
 though Tithes were customarily paid, yet such 
 payment was popularly considered as a discharge 
 from giving alms. This view was, however, repro- 
 bated in the Council, and men were enjoined to 
 render not only the tenth, as already belonging to 
 God, but also to seek His blessing by charitable 
 gifts out of the nine portions that belonged to 
 
 * Johnson. Sub. ann. 693. See Soames Angle-Saxon Church, 
 p. 93.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 183 
 
 themselves.* A similar view to this was evidently 
 taken in Offa's law respecting Tithes, already 
 alluded to. Augustine, the missionary, also about 
 A.D: 600 received, in answer to certain questions 
 propounded by him to Gregory the Great, instruc- 
 tions in pecuniary matters to follow the Eoman 
 usage. This usage enjoined the payment of 
 Tithes, and carries us still further up the stream 
 of time, and just agrees with what the learned 
 Puritan, John Selden, says, who, as we have before 
 stated, not only confesses, but proves out of ancient 
 records that Tithes were paid to the Church before 
 the end of the fourth century.*}* 
 
 St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo (not the 
 missionary to England above alluded to, but) 
 one of the greatest fathers of the Church 
 who lived more than two hundred years be- 
 fore the other Augustine, speaks very plainly 
 about the payment of Tithes to the Church, 
 telling men that they ought to separate something 
 out of their yearly fruits, or daily income, and 
 
 * Soames, p. 117. Cone. Calc. Can. 17. Spelman i., 298 ; and 
 Wilkins i., 150. Soames questions very much whether the quadri- 
 partite, or even the tripartite division of the Tithes ever became 
 general in England, though it was recommended. See the preface 
 to his Anglo-Saxon Church. 
 
 t Selden, pp. 35, 46. 
 O
 
 184 THE TIIEEE_ VENERABLE 
 
 that a tenth to a Christian was but a small pro- 
 portion. Because it is said the Pharisees gave 
 Tithes, ' I fast twice in the week, I give Tithes of 
 all that I possess.' And our Saviour saith, 
 ' Except your righteousness exceed the righteous- 
 ness of the Scribes and Pharisees ye shall not 
 enter into the kingdom of heaven.' But if he 
 whose righteousness ye are to exceed give Tithes, 
 and you give not a thousandth part, how can you 
 be said to exceed him, whom you do not so much 
 as equal.* Again, in another place, this same 
 Augustine says, ' Our forefathers abounded in all 
 things because they gave Tithes to God, and 
 tribute to Caesar ; but now our devotion to God is 
 sunk, the taxes of the State are raised upon us, 
 We would not give God His part in the Tithes, 
 and therefore the whole is taken away from us. 
 The exchequer devours what we would not give to 
 Christ.'-f- And from this passage it is also evident 
 that Tithes were paid before the time of even this 
 Augustine. 
 
 Now there is every reason to believe that 
 what was early adopted by the Christians abroad, 
 
 * Aug. Com. on Psa. 146. Toin. viii. p. 698. 
 f Aug. Horn., torn, x, p. 201.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 185 
 
 was followed out in this country. Even Selden 
 says, 'Neither is it likely in those times, the 
 custom in this isla'nd therein should differ 
 from what was even uniformly received through 
 those parts of Christendom, whereof we have the 
 best testimony lemaining. But if ancient authority 
 were of credit Parish Churches expressly men- 
 tioned of about the time of 490 A.D., and endowed 
 as at this day, might be found among the Britons. 
 For when Dubritius was made Archbishop of 
 South Wales, which they called Dextralis Britannia, 
 and his see appointed at Llandaff, under Mauris, 
 Prince of that Wales, divers Churches, with their 
 endowment of Tithes, Oblations, and other profits 
 were appropriated to him and his successors.'* 
 Why does Mr. Miall keep back such statements as 
 these ? It were easy to mention other instances 
 and passages from early writers, showing how 
 general the payment of Tithes had become among 
 all converts to Christianity. I will only give 'one 
 more instance from earlier times as it refers to 
 England, and a period before Augustine the mis- 
 sionary came. It is stated on the authority of 
 Giraldus's Cambriensis, that when Germanus and 
 
 Selden on Tithes, chap, ix., p. 209.
 
 186 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Lupus came over from the Continent, to assist the 
 British Christians against the Pelagian heresy, 
 they taught the ancient Britons 'to pay Tithes 
 partly to the Bishop and partly to their baptismal 
 Church.'* 
 
 " There is then abundance of evidence, you will 
 perceive, to prove that Tithes were from a very 
 early date paid in England, and that they 
 must in the first instance have originated in the 
 spontaneous liberality of the owners of the land, 
 because there was at the first no civil law to com- 
 pel the payment of these Tithes, and the payment, 
 to a certain extent, depended upon the willingness 
 of these several individuals. Thus the payment 
 of Tithes must originally have been purely volun- 
 tary ; but when it was found that too many indi- 
 viduals who inherited lands which were perma- 
 nently charged with payment of Tithes, tried to 
 evade the payment of what was due to the Church, 
 it was then found necessary to invoke the highest 
 power in the land to secure the payment of these 
 Tithes generally as a permanent right of the 
 Church. The right had been established, as it has 
 been shown long before the close of the Heptarchy, 
 
 * See Comber on Tithes, p. 183.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 187 
 
 and every law or charter relating to Tithes, after- 
 wards made, enforced the payment ; none of them 
 originated Tithes. I trust, however, I shall not 
 weary you with these statements and the proofs 
 which I think it necessary to advance in behalf of 
 the church's right to her Tithes, but if these were 
 not thoroughly entered into we should gain but a 
 superficial and incomplete comprehension of the 
 subject." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Oh no ! you do not weary 
 us, I assure you: I am much interested in re- 
 searches of this kind, and especially in this case, 
 as it will enable us the better to comprehend the 
 matter, which must have a practical bearing and 
 influence upon the legislation of the country, and 
 is closely connected with the real welfare of the 
 people ; it is, therefore, of great moment to get to 
 the bottom of such a subject as this, that we may 
 be able to judge for ourselves about the right, and 
 to uphold it, if it be necessary." 
 
 John Bull : " I must honestly confess, that I am 
 pleased to hear the matter thoroughly argued, and 
 have it once more firmly settled one way or 
 another as the unsettling of it is hurtful to the 
 country; we are, therefore, obliged to Mother 
 Church for the information which she is at the 
 trouble to afford us."
 
 188 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Mother Church: "And now as to the way in 
 which Tithes originated. I have little doubt in 
 my own mind, and I am bound to confess it, 
 because I see no wrong in it, even if it were done 
 at the present time, but rather see in it a carrying 
 out of God's plan and the Scriptural principle 
 that when the Gospel was first preached among 
 the inhabitants of Great Britain, and as converts 
 were made to Christianity, they were urged and 
 enjoined to give a portion of their substance for 
 the support of the Church and its ministers. God's 
 ancient people, the Jews, they would be told, were 
 enjoined to give a tenth portion of their substance 
 to God's service, and, that if they who heard 
 the Gospel desired to be acknowledged as God's 
 people, they should not do less. This, no doubt, 
 was often set before them as a duty, and their 
 observance of it was regarded as a proof of their 
 sincerity in embracing Christianity; not that they 
 were to be content with merely giving the Tithe, 
 but this at least was to be regarded as belonging 
 o God, as His portion and not theirs, and that of 
 the rest which they had they should also offer 
 willingly.* 
 
 " The importance of making a permanent pro- 
 
 * See Seldou, chap. iv. p. 36.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 189 
 
 vision for the preachers of the Gospel was early 
 recognized in England; and, that the Church 
 might become settled in the land, so that they 
 might enjoy the blessing of its ministrations, the 
 early converts, besides making large grants of land 
 in many instances, readily made a perpetual charge 
 of Tithes upon their estates, which the Church 
 should ever hereafter enjoy, and of which none of 
 their successors to the property in future genera- 
 tions, who were not so well inclined to religion as 
 themselves, might deprive the Church. Of course, 
 in the first instance, whether it was done by the 
 individual possessors of the soil, or by the sover- 
 eign when he made a grant of land to any of his 
 followers with this condition, this perpetual grant 
 or charge of Tithes upon their estates was a 
 voluntary matter. The land was theirs, and they 
 could give, or withhold, such a grant, as many did; 
 for the grant of Tithes was not effected all at once, 
 and it was only after a number of years had 
 elapsed, and social advantages became apparent to 
 the owners of estates, that the Tithes became 
 general throughout the country. Now, be it 
 observed, whilst it was in their own hands it was 
 theirs to give or withhold, they were the lawful 
 possessors, and none had a right to take even this
 
 190 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 tenth from them ; but when it was given, not for 
 one year only, but in perpetuity to the Church, and 
 that in the most solemn and public manner, before 
 many witnesses, then this tenth was no longer 
 theirs, or their successors, to withhold from the 
 Church. ' This,' as Sulivan says, ' created a per- 
 manent right in the Church, not by the force of 
 any general law or canon, but from the special 
 grant of the grantor, and the power he had to 
 charge his lands.'* For no one can deny the right 
 of the owner of land to make such a charge upon 
 his property;, or, that these tithes do not become 
 the legal and valid property of the Church, when 
 such grants have been sanctioned and apparently 
 secured, as they have been, by the lawful author- 
 ities of the country." 
 
 Mother Church continued : " I think, moreover, 
 it must be known to us all, from the ancient 
 records of our history, that o\ing to the frequent 
 invasions of this country by barbarous hordes, 
 devasting large tracts of territory, the holding 
 of property was very insecure, and continually 
 changed hands. And it is not unreasonable to 
 suppose, and indeed history bears it out as a 
 
 * Sullivan's Lecture on the Constitution and Laws of England, 
 Lee. ix.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 191 
 
 fact, that however the landmarks of property 
 might be obliterated, and a redistribution of land 
 at times found to be necessary among the fol- 
 lowers of the conquerors, Christian kings and 
 their nobles were anxious, and took great care 
 that the Church should again have her Eights 
 in property, as far as they could honestly determine 
 them, when affairs were settled : and on any fresh 
 adjustment of property Tithes were secured to 
 the Church as a matter of justice. This I doubt 
 not was the reason which led to Ethelwulf s grant 
 or charter. We have a striking instance of this, 
 moreover, in the life of Alfred the Great, Ethel- 
 wulfs son, when he admitted the Danes, whom 
 he conquered, to settle as colonists in the Eastern 
 Counties. Having agreed to receive baptism, these 
 settlers were bound over, under a heavy penalty, 
 to pay the liabilities or dues, from time imme- 
 morial fixed upon their several estates, and among 
 these Tithes are named. Allusion is made to 
 this by Selden also, who says, ' In the laws made 
 between King Alfred and Gufhrun the Dane (to 
 whom the provinces of East Anglia and North- 
 umberland were given to hold of the Crown), and 
 renewed also between the same Guthrun and King 
 Edward, son to Alfred, about the year 900, this 
 occurs, . . as the old Latin translation hath it
 
 192 THE THREE VENERABLE, ETC. 
 
 ' Si quis Decimate contra teneat, reddat Lashlite 
 cum Dads Witam cum Anglis. Lashlitc denotes 
 the Danish common forfeiture, which, as it is 
 thought, was in most offences 12 ores (that was 
 commonly xx shillings, for xx pence made an 
 ore commonly). The English common forfeiture, 
 or the Witc was xxx shillings. The occurrence 
 of these two names is frequent in Saxon laws, 
 and it may seem by this, that some other law 
 preceded for the payment of Tithes, or else that 
 the llight of them was otherwise supposed clear.'* 
 There is further evidence of this endeavour being 
 continually made by the authorities of the realm 
 to secure to the Church her Tithes, and more 
 conclusive even, as we proceed down the stream 
 of history." 
 
 Here Mother Church paused, for at this 
 moment a usher appeared and intimated that 
 luncheon was laid in the adjoining room. Madam 
 Britannia invited them all, therefore, to partake 
 of some refreshment, saying, that they would be 
 better able to proceed with their discussion after 
 their repast ; for the subject they were consider- 
 ing was of that importance and interest that they 
 had better continue it, whilst it was fresh in their 
 minds. 
 
 * Selden, chap, yiii., p. 203.
 
 PAET VI. 
 
 UPON returning again to the room where their 
 discussion had been held, 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street said, " I am 
 glad our worthy friend has given us some ex- 
 planation of the probable origin of the Tithe 
 system in this country ; and I would further 
 ask, ' Is not the great difference in the dimension 
 of parishes, and the singular manner in which 
 the lands of one parish lie in respect to those 
 of ether parishes around, a kind of collateral 
 evidence in support of what Mother Church has 
 stated as to the origin of Tithes, and the Eight 
 of the Church to them ? For, if the Tithes had 
 been originally given by the State, or Council 
 of the realm, or by the King, independently of 
 the will of the owners, might we not reasonably 
 have expected to find a more equal and sys- 
 tematic division of parishes than we now have? 
 We should not have found (to judge of matters 
 in an ordinary way) a parish of a few hundred 
 acres lying close adjoining to another of as many
 
 194 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 thousand acres. There would, in all likelihood, 
 have been some more even measurement some 
 nearer approach in size to each other, if such 
 a grant or apportionment of Tithes had been 
 given by the civil power in the first instance 
 and at one time, as some suppose. But the fact 
 that there is such a very great disproportion in 
 the size or extent of the several parishes, and 
 of the Tithes allotted to them, is a clear proof, 
 I think, that the Tithes could not have been 
 originally given as a national grant, and at one 
 time, by the King, or council of the realm, in- 
 dependently of the several owners of property. 
 Tithes can not, therefore, be regarded as a tax, 
 which having been imposed by Parliament, may 
 by Parliament be repealed without violating any 
 right of the people. And further, this fact, which 
 is apparent everywhere, throughout the length 
 and breadth of the land, as to the unequal size 
 of parishes, and the amount of Tithes attached 
 to them severally, is a proof of the correctness 
 of the views enunciated by our friend as to the 
 origin of Tithes ; it is a standing and lasting 
 memorial in the land, everywhere visible, of the 
 only reasonable account that can be given of it, 
 viz., that the owners of property, some of whom
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 195 
 
 had small estates only, and others large estates, 
 assigned the Tithes of them severally to the 
 Church to secure the ministrations thereof for 
 themselves, their families, their dependents, and 
 successors." 
 
 Mother Church : " Yes ; this difference in the 
 size and peculiar shape of the parishes strongly 
 corroborates the view I have set forth ; especially 
 when taken in connection with the existence of 
 private patronage, which still continues in the 
 Church of England. For the additional fact of so 
 many Advowsons which gives the right of pre- 
 sentation to Church livings being in the hands of 
 private families, and chiefly those having landed 
 property, can only be satisfactorily accounted for 
 on the ground that the Tithes and Glebe were 
 originally given by the owners of property ; 
 and that this right to present a clergyman to 
 a living, subject to the approval of the Bishop 
 which has come down to their successors, was 
 originally granted, and held out as an inducement 
 to former owners of the land, to make a settled 
 provision for the clergyman that should be ap- 
 pointed." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Might I ask whether there 
 be any historical evidence of this ? for if so, it
 
 196 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 would greatly serve to establish what you have 
 stated." 
 
 Mother Church : " Oh yes ! and with your per- 
 mission I shall be glad to furnish you with it 
 Theodore, who became Archbishop of Canterbury 
 sixty-three years after Augustine died, (and one 
 hundred and eighty-seven years before the grant of 
 Ethclwulfs charier?) and to whom the Church of 
 England is much indebted for uniting under one 
 rule, the ancient British clergy and those of the 
 communion of Rome introduced by Augustine, and 
 constituting them as the clergy of an independent 
 branch of the Church of Christ ; this Theodore, I 
 say, ' besides providing for his adopted country an 
 outline of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and terms of 
 religious conformity, appears to have been guided 
 by a usage of his native Asia in planning the 
 establishment of a parochial clergy. Under royal 
 sanction, he followed Justinian, in offering the 
 perpetual patronage of churches as an encourage- 
 ment for their erection.' Soames, whose words I 
 am quoting, in his History of the Anglo-Saxon 
 Church, says, 'Opulent proprietors were thus 
 tempted to supply the spiritual wants of their 
 tenantry, and Bede records two instances in which 
 this judicious policy proved effective. Theodore's
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 197 
 
 Oriental system had been, however, in operation 
 for ages before every English estate of any mag- 
 nitude had secured the benefit of a church within 
 its boundary. This very lingering progress has 
 thrown much obscurity about the origin of 
 parishes. The principle of their formation will 
 however, account for their unequal size, and for 
 existing rights of patronage.'* 
 
 " The policy inaugurated by Theodore was ap- 
 proved and furthered by Athelstan, ' one of the 
 wisest, most powerful, and most energetic of Anglo- 
 Saxon princes/ who granted the rank of Thane, or 
 Gentleman, to every such proprietor of the soil as 
 would provide for his tenants a place of worship. 
 In Johnson's translation of the Anglo-Saxon Chron- 
 icle the words are : ' If a churl thrived so as to 
 have five hides of his own land, a church, a 
 kitchen, a bell-tower, a seat, and an office in the 
 king's court, from that time forward he was ac- 
 counted equal in honour to a Thane.'"f* 
 
 " Thus we perceive that the dignity of Thane, or 
 Gentleman, was open to the people among the 
 Anglo-Saxons ; and when one of the conditions 
 
 * Soames, pp. 85, 86. 
 ) Spelman, Cone. i. 406.
 
 198 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 was that a church should be built upon his 
 property, we can have little doubt but that ' a 
 wealthy aspirant of humble origin would be careful 
 to prevent any deficiency in this particular from 
 crossing his ambitious views ! However small an 
 estate was, its lord commonly would not rest con- 
 tented without a church upon it. Nor often, says 
 Soames, did he forbear to shew whose accommo- 
 dation was first consulted, by placing the new 
 erection close to his own home, although both the 
 chief population, and the house provided for its 
 minister, might be at some distance.' ' Parishes, 
 therefore, owe their actual dimensions to no neg- 
 ligence or caprice, but to the accidental inequal- 
 ities of private property.'* 
 
 " The Church's dowry of glebe had notoriously 
 been settled upon it by some landowner, who like- 
 wise raised the fabric, and provided more effect- 
 ually for the maintenance of its minister, by 
 resigning in his favour one-tenth of all that his 
 own possessions around should Jiereafter produce. 
 Such public spirit justly demanded a suitable 
 acknowledgment. None could be more so, than a 
 freehold right of selecting, under proper control, 
 that functionary who was to realize the liberal 
 
 * Soames, p. 3.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 199 
 
 donor's pious intentions. This was nothing be- 
 yond an equitable return to an individual, who had 
 not only provided his neighbours with a place of 
 religious worship at his own expense, but had 
 also rendered this liberality available to them, 
 and to those who should come after them, by 
 building a parsonage, by rendering inalienably a 
 part of his own property as glebe, and ~by burdening 
 irredeemably the remainder!* These words seem 
 to me, my friends, very conclusive on this point, 
 that the original boundaries of our parishes were 
 determined in the main, by the extent of the 
 estates of those who built and endowed churches 
 on them, and that part of this endowment being 
 the Tithes on the several estates for the per- 
 manent maintenance of the clergyman, the appro- 
 priation of it was sanctioned and approved by the 
 authorities both in Church and State. 
 
 " This view of the matter is further confirmed by 
 Selden, who cannot be accused of having any 
 design of favouring the Church, but who gives 
 some useful and reliable information as to the 
 course of events, or the manner in which the 
 Parochial system grew out of the Diocesan. He 
 says, ' that in these primitive times of the English- 
 
 * Soames, p. 4. 
 P
 
 200 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Saxon Church, the Bishop and the whole Clergy 
 of the Diocese were as one body living upon their 
 endowments (bestowed on the Bishopric) and their 
 treasure that came from the sundry places of devo- 
 tion, whither some one or other of them, at the 
 Bishop's appointment, was sent to preach the 
 Word and minister the Sacraments ; every Clerk 
 having his dividend for his maintenance. Neither 
 in these elder times, I think, did any of these 
 Clergy or Chaplains usually reside elsewhere than 
 with him at his Bishopric (as Deans and Chap- 
 ters at this day) or in some Monasteries whence 
 they might, as occasion required, at certain times 
 go into those parishes which were distinguished 
 only for several functions of those Chaplains, lest 
 want of such distinction might sooner have caused 
 also k a want of a special discharge of this or that 
 cure/ An.d then he continues further on, 'But 
 afterwards, when devotion grew firmer, and most 
 Laymen of fair estate desired the country residence 
 of some Chaplains, that might be always ready 
 for Christian instruction among them, their fami- 
 lies and adjoining tenants ; oratories and churches 
 began to be built by them also : and being hal- 
 lowed by the Bishops, were endowed with peculiar 
 maintenance from the Founders, for the Incum-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 201 
 
 bents that should there only reside. Which main- 
 tenance, with all other Ecclesiastical profits that 
 came to the hands of every several Incumbent (in 
 regard, that now the Lay-founder had, according to 
 the territory of his demesnes, tenancies, or neigh- 
 bouring possessions, made and assigned both the 
 limits within which the holy function was to be 
 exercised, and appointed the persons that should 
 repair to the Church, and offer there, as also pro- 
 vided a special salary for the performance) was 
 afterwards also restrained from that common Trea- 
 sure of the Diocese, and made the only revenue, 
 which became perpetually annexed to the Church 
 of that Clerk who received it. Neither was it 
 wonder that the Bishops should give way to such 
 restraint. For had they denied that to Lay- 
 founders, they had given no small cause also of 
 restraining their devotion. Every man, question- 
 less, would have been the imwillinger to have 
 specially endowed the Church, founded for the 
 holy use of him, his family, and tenants, if withal 
 he might not have had the liberty to have, given 
 his Incumbent, there resident, a special and several 
 maintenance ; which could not have been, had the 
 former community of the clergy's revenue still 
 remained. Out of these Lay-foundations chiefly,
 
 202 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 doubtless came those kind of Parishes which at 
 this day are in every Diocese. Their differences 
 in quantity being originally out of the difference 
 of the several circuits of the demesnes or terri- 
 tories possessed by the Founder.'* The very cha- 
 racter of our Parishes being so diversified in size, 
 then, bears ample witness, and is a standing monu- 
 ment of the munificence of the owners of property 
 in the early English Church, and that the Tithes 
 appropriated by them to their several churches 
 were confirmed and secured to the Church as an 
 inalienable right in the strongest possible manner. 
 But to return to the thread of our evidence ; 
 
 " As we come down the stream of history from 
 Ethelwulf s and Alfred's, time, we find constant 
 decisions made in the Councils of the Realm to 
 support the Church in obtaining her due right of 
 Tithes. Thus, 
 
 " In Athelstane's reign, the legislative assembly 
 holden at Grately, enacted that Tithes should be 
 strictly paid, not only on crops, but upon live stock, f 
 
 " In Edmunds reign, another legislative assem- 
 bly, held in London, again enjoined the payment 
 of Tithes. | 
 
 * Seldec, pp. 254, 259, 260. 
 
 f Spelman Cone. i. 396. Wilkins, i. 205. 
 
 J Spelman, i. 420. Wilkins, i. 214.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 203 
 
 " Notwithstanding these enactments, it was still 
 found that the Church suffered great loss from the 
 avarice of worldly men, and the legislature was 
 accordingly driven, in Edgar's reign, to compel by 
 civil penalties, the due discharge of that claim to 
 which the land was liable. It was enjoined that 
 the Tithe of stock be paid at Pentecost, and the 
 Tithes of the fruits of the earth by the Equinox, 
 and if not then paid, seizure might be made 
 by the joint action of the King's and Bishop's 
 reeves, and a heavy fine exacted.* 
 
 " In Ethelretfs reign, the payment of Tithe was 
 again enjoined, and a more exact method laid 
 down, viz., that the produce of every tenth acre 
 was to be rendered, as the plough went.-f 
 
 There are other enactments that' might be 
 noticed, especially those in Canutes reign, J and 
 Edward the Confessor s. 
 
 " But without troubling you with the exact words 
 of these, or even of those before named, 1T we come 
 
 * Spelmau, i. 444. Wilkins, i. 245. 
 
 t Spelman i., 531. Wilkins i., 295. 
 
 J Selden, pp. 223, 224. 
 
 Ibid, pp. 224, 225. 
 
 IT The very words of nearly all these are to be found in Selden's 
 viii. chap., first in the old Saxon characters then in old Latin, so 
 any one may look into the matter further if he desires to do so.
 
 204 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 to a great landmark in the history of our country, 
 viz., the reign of William, the Conqueror. When 
 this Sovereign at last found himself settled on the 
 throne of England, he commissioned twelve 
 learned and able men to ascertain, as far as they 
 were able, what were the laws of the country 
 during the reign of Edward the Confessor, and 
 these being ascertained, he, at the express desire of 
 the people, re-enacted and consolidated as the 
 common law of the land. Among these are the 
 injunctions or laws respecting Tithes, for after cer- 
 tain specifications it is there laid down that ' who- 
 soever shall withhold this tenth part shall by the 
 justice of the King and Bishop, be forced to pay- 
 ment of it if needs be.'* 
 
 "In tracing the history of Tithes downwards 
 fro m, the time of the Norman Conquest there is 
 most abundant testimony to its being fully acknow- 
 ledged as a valid Eight of the Church, by the 
 legislature ; I need, however, only be brief, for I 
 do not wish to burden you with more evidence 
 than is necessary to show you that it has been 
 acknowledged all along. Henry I., Stephen, and 
 Henry II. were each required to confirm and main- 
 
 * Hoveden's Annals, p. 602. Spelman, p. 620.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 205 
 
 tain these statutes of the realm, which confirmed 
 the Eight of Tithes to the Church.* 
 
 " In Edward I. and Edward III. reigns there are 
 several Acts regulating the payment of Tithes, all 
 of which more or less testify that they belong to 
 the Church, f 
 
 " In Henry VIII. and Edward VI. reigns there 
 were several A.cts passed relating to Tithes. It is 
 notorious that during these reigns many Tithes were 
 alienated from the Church. But whilst the Tithes 
 thus seized upon, on the dissolution of the Monas- 
 teries, were secured to the Sovereign and his paten- 
 tees, upon whom they had been bestowed, those 
 that remained to the church, were still secured to 
 her by legislative enactments, as they had been 
 aforetime.| 
 
 * Selden, p. 226-228. 
 fSelden, p. 232-241. 
 
 It is worthy of observation to notice how even Henry VIII., 
 through whom the Church lost so much of her property, confirmed 
 the right of certain Tithes to the Church, which have since his days 
 been lost to the Church, owing to the State not giving the Church 
 sufficient protection against the pillage practised by great mpn. 
 Thus ' by the Acts of 27 Hen. VIII. c. 21, and 37 Hen. VIII. c. 12, 
 and the decree made upon them, the citizens and inhabitants of 
 London, and the liberties were concmanded to pay their Tithes to 
 the Parsons, Vicurs, and Curates of the City, according to a rate of 
 the rents of their houses ; that is, two shillings and uinepence for 
 every pound, and that if no rent be reserved, the Tithe should be
 
 206 THE THEEE VENERABLE 
 
 " Since the Reformation, in various reigns, many 
 Acts have been passed relating to Tithes some of 
 which have proved detrimental, iu no little degree, 
 to the Church's interests, whereby the Church has 
 lost hold of some of her Tithes; but the great 
 fact has all along been acknowledged by the legis- 
 lature of the country, and is so at this present 
 moment, that Tithes, unless they were impro- 
 priated, or had become void in some particular 
 instances by law, are of right belonging to the 
 Church and must be paid ; and the fact is still 
 
 duly paid, according to what their houses had been last letten for, 
 and according to that also, are owners bound to pay.' (Scldenj 
 p. 243.) It is a curious history to trace out how the Church lost so 
 much of her property even sinco Hen. VI IPs day. The days suc- 
 ceeding this were days of great tribulation to the Church, though 
 she was eventually happily able to throw off the yoke and corrup- 
 tions of Popery. 
 
 The people of the city of Canterbury and its suburbs had like- 
 wise to pay two shillings and ninepence in the pound out of their 
 rents for Tithe. So also had the people of Coventry, and some 
 parishes in Middlesex, Essex, Kent, and Surrey. 
 
 An award also was made in King Charles I's. reign settling two 
 shillings in the pound out of the rents of houses for the mainten- 
 ance of the parochial clergy. 
 
 If these Tithes, which were in lieu of land Tithes, had been 
 retained to the Church in all our cities and large towns, what a 
 large provision would have been made for the spiritual necessities 
 of these populous places ; and probably the rents would have been 
 no higher ban they are at present.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 207 
 
 further patent that they have been all along 
 claimed and paid as a lawful debt, or charge upon 
 property. 
 
 " And now I trust you will bear with me a little 
 longer whilst I endeavour to sum up the evidence 
 I have laid before you." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Certainly ! for we are, I 
 assure you, deeply indebted for the pains you have 
 been at in laying this matter so fully before us." 
 
 Mother Church : " Thank you. And, first, all 
 this evidence proves what a solid and well attested 
 foundation the Eight of Tithes rests upon ; as it is 
 not only one of the most ancient, but one so fre- 
 quently acknowledged and ratified by the funda- 
 mental charters of the kingdom. And here I shall 
 again take leave to bring before you the words of 
 the learned lawyer, John Selden, as very applicable 
 to the point. He says, 'The laws of before, as 
 well as of after the Norman Conquest (as it is 
 vulgarly called) are here gathered [i.e. in his viii. 
 chap.], and are perhaps equally observable, as the 
 rest, in the consequent of a general consecration of 
 Tithes to the Church in England. For neither 
 were the Laws formerly made abolished by that 
 conquest, although by law of war, regularly all 
 Eights and Laws of the place conquered, be wholly
 
 208 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 subject to the conqueror's will. For as this of the 
 Norman, not only the conqueror's will was not 
 declared that the former laws should be abrogated 
 (and until such declaration, laws remain in force> 
 by opinion of some, in all conquests of Christians 
 against Christians,) but also the ancient and former 
 laws of the kingdom were confirmed by him. For 
 in his 4th year, by the advice of his Baronage, he 
 summoned to London Omnes Nobiles sapientes et 
 lege sua eruditos, ut eorum leges et consuetudines 
 audirct, as the words are of the book of Lichfield, 
 and afterwards confirmed them, as it is further 
 also related in Roger of Hoveden. Those lege sua 
 eruditi t were common lawyers of that time, as 
 Godric and Alfwin were then also, who are spoken 
 of in the book of Abingdon to be, Legibus patriot 
 optime institute, &c.'* Now the argument that I 
 shall found upon what I have hitherto stated, and 
 the evidence that has been advanced is this, that 
 the Church's Eight to her Tithes does not rest 
 simply upon one or two charters in the olden 
 Saxon times, or the forced enactments of some 
 arbitrary Saxon Sovereign; but upon a Right 
 obtained by grants and inheritance from the ori- 
 ginal owners and possessors of the soil, and such as 
 
 * Seldeu's Review, p. 482.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 209 
 
 has been continually and repeatedly acknowledged 
 as lawfully belonging to the Church by the legisla- 
 ture of the country in successive reigns for more 
 than a thousand years. Moreover, if there had 
 been any doubt as to the Church's Eight to Tithes 
 in earlier times (which does not appear, further 
 than what we might expect to find in men with- 
 holding what was due,) the matter seems to 
 have been fully set at rest in the reign of "William 
 the Conqueror. For when a large redistribution of 
 property took place among his followers, and he, 
 as sovereign, granted fresh titles to the new owners, 
 and confirmed the title of others, after a careful 
 survey of the country by the royal commissioners 
 appointed for this purpose, the Eight of the Church 
 to her Tithes also, as it has been shown was fully 
 acknowledged and confirmed ; so that not only 
 long before, from time immemorial, but from this 
 re-investigation and re-settlement of Titles to pro- 
 perty after the Norman Conquest, it was satisfac- 
 torily proved that one-tenth of the property 
 belonged to the Church, and only nine-tenths 
 belonged to the owner or landlord ; or rather, he 
 was only owner or landlord to the extent of nine- 
 tenths of the land he had, and must pay what was 
 due to the Church for the remaining tenth.
 
 210 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 " And if anything more was wanting to confirm 
 and permanently settle the Church's Right to her 
 Tithes, we have it laid down in the Magna Charta, 
 that great bulwark of the people's Rights and 
 Liberties. For in addition to the first clause, 
 which runs thus, ' Know ye that we by the grace 
 of God, &c. . . by the advice of our honoured 
 fathers, and by the advice of other lieges have in 
 the first place granted to God, and confirmed by 
 this our present Charter, for us, and for our heirs 
 for ever, that the Church of England shall be free, 
 and shall enjoy its rights and franchises entirely 
 and fully,' there is this other clause, which secured 
 to the people of England the safe possession and 
 inheritance of their property, and which applies to 
 the Church as well, ' that no man shall be disseized 
 of his freehold, but by the judgement of his peers, 
 and by the due course of law! -It was the main- 
 tenance of this charter that has preserved the 
 humblest and weakest in the land, against the 
 strongest and highest ; so that not even the King 
 or any of the powerful Nobles might seize upon 
 the property of another, or injure anyone ; and I 
 ask, can it be well for the people, to see this 
 fundamental principle of our constitution, to which 
 they are so deeply indebted, ruthlessly set aside, by
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 211 
 
 suffering such an invasion of the Church's Eight, 
 as to permit her to be defrauded of her Tithes ? 
 Certainly not ! Their interest lies in maintaining it 
 Thus in times past have the possessions of the 
 Church been secured to her, tied, and bound up 
 with the safe possession of property by the rightful 
 owners. And however much property has changed 
 hands since these times, whether by inheritance, 
 by grant, or by purchase, only nine-tenths of the 
 said property was legally obtained, except in those 
 cases where, by subsequent legal enactments, ex- 
 emptions were made, or some composition was 
 fixed upon. The Right of the Church to her 
 Tithes is therefore as it were embedded and deeply 
 rooted in the very constitution of our country, and 
 the legal inheritance of property. The Church's 
 title then, is one of the oldest, and best attested 
 that can be produced. None can show an older 
 title, or a better, or one more generally acknow- 
 ledged, unless it be that of the Crown. The Church 
 has had a prescriptive enjoyment of them for some 
 hundreds of years before the Conquest, and since. 
 And notwithstanding this long possession can prove 
 a good title to them, that she came fairly by the 
 Tithes at the first, their being freely given to her, 
 and acknowledged by the Sovereign (who as our
 
 212 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 best lawyers say, had then all the land of England 
 in demesne. (Coke on Lit. : I. ch. 9, sec. 73), with 
 the free consent and desire also of all the great 
 lords and possessors in the kingdom, declared in 
 the assembled council of the realm. And. for the 
 better and more secure possession of this Eight it 
 has been confirmed by divers Acts of Parliament ; 
 nearly every King's reign bearing witness to it. 
 
 There are a certain class of men in the country 
 who look with a greedy, covetous eye upon these 
 ancient possessions of the Church, and agitate the 
 country to seize upon them. They ridicule any 
 fear of danger to the inheritance of property, or 
 harm to the country, by this unsettling and up- 
 rooting one of the most ancient institutions of the 
 land, the fibres of which run throughout the 
 country and intersect every portion ; but who, with 
 an honest and reflecting mind, can view the history 
 of England and the evidence in support of the 
 Church's title to Tithes, and will not justly fear 
 that it would shake the very framework of society 
 and the settled constitution of our land to their 
 very foundation, and be the beginning of a reign 
 of additional bitterness, perplexity and disturbance, 
 such as we have not lately seen in England, but 
 which has of late been too frequently witnessed,
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 213 
 
 and felt to the very core, in some of the nations of 
 the Continent. Men accustomed to look at the 
 result of actions, and who have studied the ulti- 
 mate consequences that flow from great changes, 
 affecting the moral and spiritual welfare of the 
 country mentioned in history, know full well, that 
 sooner or later there would be a fearful retribution, 
 vastly affecting the peace and prosperity and 
 stability of the country. 
 
 Moreover, it would be a wanton, despotic, and 
 unjust act of tyranny towards a large portion of 
 the community, who were well affected to the 
 constitution, and deeply interested in the well- 
 being of the country ; for I speak now, not 
 merely of the clergy, but of the laity in the 
 Church of all classes, who are benefited by her 
 ministrations. And to upset all this vast system, 
 so well arranged, so fruitful for good, amid even its 
 imperfections and shortcomings, and tending in so 
 many ways materially to promote virtue, diminish 
 crime, and alleviate the ills of poverty ; to upset 
 all this extensive machinery for good, or at least 
 wofully impair it, would be little short of mad- 
 ness, and culpable recklessness in the statesmen of 
 our country ; and it would appear, that notwith- 
 standing they might do this at the instigation of
 
 214 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 and to please a few, (for they are not many com- 
 pared with those who would otherwise be affected 
 by the change) noisy politicians, and restless, 
 clamorous, discontented sectaries, they may try in 
 vain to satisfy and please them. 
 
 And what good would it do ? None, that I 
 can see ; but much harm ; for whilst it would not 
 content those who are urging on the cry, it would 
 cause a deep and lasting wound, which would not 
 be soon healed, to a large section of the common- 
 wealth who are at the present staunch supporters 
 of the constitution, and the interests of the 
 country. 
 
 Or again, who is hurt or injured by the contin- 
 uance of Tithes to the Church ? None that I know 
 of ! Certainly not those who are so ready to cry 
 out against it, not the landlords, not the tenants, 
 not the poor, who would really be the greatest 
 sufferers by taking them away. If a man buys an 
 estate, he now usually buys only nine-tenths of 
 the land, the remaining one-tenth still belonging 
 to the Church : or if he inherits property, he in 
 most cases only inherits nine-tenths, the one-tenth 
 still belonging to the Church. And what wrong 
 is done to him in either case if he only gets nine- 
 tenths of the rent, and the clergyman of the
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 215 
 
 parish the one-tenth ? Or what wrong to the 
 tenant, who if he did not pay the one-tenth to 
 the Church, must pay it to the landlord ? 
 
 Moreover, the landlord or owner in such 
 cases does not pay the taxes of the country 
 on the one-tenth, he is only charged on the nine- 
 tenths ; the legislature of the country thereby 
 recognising the one-tenth as the valid inheritance 
 or right in the property belonging to the Churchi 
 and charges her with her proportion of the taxes 
 which are due, and which she also pays ; the 
 which is a standing testimony that this title to the 
 one-tenth in the property is still regarded by the 
 civil authorities of the country as rightly owned 
 by the Church. 
 
 Further, if you will only consider the matter 
 awhile, the payment of Tithes is so contrived that 
 it can never be hard upon the poor; and yet 
 the poor have an equal right with the rich to the 
 services of the Clergyman who is partly maintained 
 by the Tithes; they often regard him as, and find 
 him to be, their friend in their hour of need : so 
 that it is really to the people's interest to pre- 
 serve the Tithes intact to the Church, 
 
 But further, no man ought to call it a burden to 
 give every one their own ; the interest of th'3 one- 
 Q
 
 21 G THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 tenth does not belong to the landlord, nor to the 
 tenant, nor to the State, but to the Church, and 
 it ought to be given to the Church without the 
 least demur as hers, by all that is right. To with- 
 hold it is but knavery and wrong-doing : for no 
 other person or body of men can make any just 
 claim upon it but the Church. 
 
 If Tithes were taken from the Church, there is 
 no reason why they would not return to the lords 
 of the soil ; the tenants would not benefit by it, for 
 if Tithes were taken off, the landlords, as we have 
 just said, would want so much rao'/e rent in pro- 
 portion ; nor would the labourer on the property 
 gain any advantage ; it would be chiefly the rich, 
 (who already have enough) that would in the end 
 be benefited by doing away with the Tithe system. 
 
 Nor are the Clergy, as a body, overpaid, that the 
 Tithes which remain to the Church should be 
 taken from her. This is far from being the case, 
 as it has been shewn on a former occasion ; and as 
 facts abundantly testify, they are much underpaid, 
 considering their education, and the price which 
 things are now at ; for as a whole, they do not get 
 sufficiently paid, and in many cases they can 
 hardly, with the greatest economy, ' keep the wolf 
 from the door.' Moreover, the Church is at the
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 217 
 
 present time short of funds to prosecute her work 
 as she desires to do, and has to go begging through- 
 out the country to meet the increasing demands, 
 and to supply the growing religious necessities of 
 the times. 
 
 And then again, if Tithes were taken away from 
 the Church, one of two things would happen, either 
 the great mass of our poor would to a great extent 
 be left without religious instruction, for as we 
 have before shewn when speaking of other endow- 
 ments of the Church, they are not in a position to 
 support a minister properly educated ; or, some 
 new maintenance for the clergy must be obtained 
 from the people ; and as the latter is not likely to 
 happen, the result of the former alternative would 
 be to leave the people to lapse, in no little degree, 
 into heathenism or atheism, the bitter fruits 
 whereof would be reaped by our children, if not by 
 ourselves. 
 
 Wherefore then, why not adhere to ' the old 
 way' which God Himself choose, and which our 
 prudent and pious ancestors or rather the early 
 possessors of the soil adopted, settled, and handed 
 down to us ? Not to enter again upon the dangers 
 and difficulties, the great disquietude and many 
 inconveniences that would arise from such a
 
 218 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 change which the doing away of Tithes would in- 
 volve, we, as a nation, will never be able to hit 
 upon, or agree in, any more equal or easy way 
 than that of Tithes. No system but what has its 
 inequalities and inconveniences ; this perhaps has 
 the fewest, and such as can be easily rectified, if 
 sanctioned by the legislature. 
 
 I have now finished what I have to say upon 
 the subject, and must sincerely thank you all for 
 listening so patiently to my defence of the Church's 
 right to her Tithes." 
 
 Madame Britannia : " Nay indeed, I think we 
 must all thank you, my venerable friend, for the 
 clear and intelligible manner in which you have 
 brought this matter before us. It is astonishing 
 how much the records of history, when fairly set 
 before us, not only serve to disperse the haziness 
 and apparent uncertainty which hangs over a 
 matter which has been so much misrepresented, 
 but enable us to understand it more perfectly, 
 and to see our way in it. To my mind, the evi- 
 dence and the arguments you have adduced, should 
 set the matter at rest, for I cannot conceive what 
 more right our friend here, Mr. Bull, has to the 
 nine-tenths of the rent which he receives from his 
 tenants, than the Church has to her one-tenth."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 219 
 
 John Bull : " Nor do I, I must candidly confess, 
 after all the evidence and arguments I have 
 listened to. For the Church seems to have just 
 as good a right and title, if not better, to her por- 
 tion, as 1 have to mine." 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadueedle Street : " Be- 
 fore we close the subject, I have, with your leave, 
 one or two observations to make. I doubt not, but 
 that if those who cry out so much about the 
 Church enjoying her right to Tithes were them- 
 selves in possession of them, they would be 
 the most strenuous supporters of the right, and 
 would severely condemn those who wanted to do 
 away with them. And in corroboration of this, it 
 is a singular fact, worthy of note, that both the 
 Presbyterian and Independent ministers during 
 the time of the Commonwealth were most anxious 
 to receive the Tithes, and most zealous in defend- 
 ing the payment of them. Both sets of " Godly 
 Ministers " kept a sharp look out after them. In 
 A.D. 1644 they got an ordinance made by the Lords 
 and Commons assembled in Parliament, ' For the 
 true payment of Tithes, and other such duties, 
 according to the laws and customs of the realm.' 
 And several such like ordinances were made about 
 this time.
 
 220 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 "Even Mr. Pryn himself argues very forcibly 
 for their continuance in his 'Gospel plea for 
 Tithes.' It is hardly consistent then, in those who 
 profess to be the successors of these ' godly minis- 
 ters ' to oppose the enjoyment of Tithes by the 
 Church, who is the legal owner of them. But it 
 makes all the difference when they do not enjoy 
 them. 
 
 " It is however satisfactory to know that there 
 are some honest Dissenters, even in the present 
 day, who candidly acknowledge the Church's Plight 
 to her Tithes and other endowments : and they 
 are men too who have had the opportunity, and 
 taken pains to look carefully into the question, 
 and are therefore qualified to form an opinion, and 
 to speak, with some knowledge, on the matter. 
 Thus, Mr. Horace Mann, the compiler of the 
 Religious Worship Census, said some years ago in 
 his remarks (p. 4) that, ' upon the erection of a 
 Church, or the foundation of a religious establish- 
 ment, it became the custom probably in imita- 
 tion of a practice which appears to have prevailed 
 in nearly every age, and every country in the 
 world for the founder to devote a tenth of all his 
 property to purposes of religion and charity. Tithes 
 thus appear to have had their origin in voluntary
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 221 
 
 payments, and as such they were doubtless very 
 generally rendered in the early periods of Anglo- 
 Saxon rule.' 
 
 Mr. Toulman Smith also, an eminent barrister 
 among the Dissenters, stated in his evidence before 
 a select committee of the House of Lords, Feb- 
 ruary 16, 1800, ' I find by many of the old records, 
 that it is clear that the whole of the present endow- 
 ments of the ' Church were voluntary endowments. 
 I can show that the endowments upon which the 
 Church subsist? were endowments originally given 
 by private individuals for a specific maintenance of 
 a Church for the people.' Again, after alluding to 
 a document in Edward III.'s reign, he says, ' This 
 proves the same thing as the records I have 
 already quoted, namely, that the endowments of 
 the Church were gifts by individuals, and not 
 made by the State." Another observation of his 
 is also worthy of notice ; he says, ' The connection 
 of the Church with the State exists quite as much 
 as to all Nonconformist endowments as it does to 
 the Church endowments ; and that both one and 
 the other have equally the protection of the law ; as 
 has been illustrated in the case of Lady Hewley's 
 charity and many others. It \A notorious that the 
 law interferes as stringently to maintain an
 
 222 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 endowment whether it be for a Dissenting form 
 of worship, or for the Church of England ; the 
 latter being a Church for the people, and not a 
 sect.' 
 
 " There are other evidences of a similar cha- 
 racter from Dissenters, but these, I think, will 
 suffice to corroborate the statements already ad- 
 vanced." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Such disinterested testi- 
 mony coming from those who cannot be charged 
 with any prejudice is certainly very conclusive, 
 and must serve greatly to strengthen the Church's 
 Eight to her endowments." 
 
 John Bull : " I am quite of your opinion, 
 Madam ; and I shall go away fully satisfied and 
 prepared to uphold the Church in her Rights, 
 after all I have heard." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " I think there can be little 
 need now to discuss the Right of the Church to 
 her more recent endowments, for it is too absurd to 
 imagine that the property she has acquired within 
 the last two hundred years or so does not of right 
 belong to her." 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadneedle Street : " And 
 yet even this property is brought in question by 
 some wily politicians and the determined foes of
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 223 
 
 the Church. A Dissenting minister writes thus in 
 a little work before alluded to, ' It ought not to be 
 omitted from our view of this subject (endow- 
 ments) that of late years a large amount of pro- 
 perty has become Church property by private 
 donation. Those who give to the Church of Eng- 
 land give to a National Institution in fact, to the 
 nation and they must accept in regard to their 
 gifts all the conditions to which Church property 
 is subject.' And, again, furthpr on he says, ' The 
 nation may hereafter deal with Church property 
 and with recent gifts, to which we are referring and 
 which are part of it, as may appear expedient.'* 
 But, still it is fair to add, that he thinks the 
 opinion of the leaders of the Liberation Society 
 is, that whatever Church property has accrued by 
 private gift since the Reformation, ought to be 
 secured for ever to the Episcopal Church. Again, 
 a person, now holding a position of great import- 
 ance, says in a paper read at Sion College, January 
 20, 1870, 'If men give property to the Church 
 and the Church takes it, the property is given and 
 taken subject to State control, on State terms, 
 upon conditions laid down from time to time by 
 the State, and liable to be altered by the power 
 
 * Church Property : What is it, and whose ? p. 15.
 
 224 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 which has laid them down.' And this sentence is 
 laid hold of by the Church's foes, But I would 
 ask, is not all property subject to State control in 
 a greater or less degree, and must be held on State 
 terms, upon conditions laid down from time to 
 time by the State ? And though the State is more 
 especially the guardian of Church property, and 
 thereby has more intimate transactions with it 
 than most other properties, yet has it no right, 
 morally, to make any conditions inimical to the 
 interests of the Church, any more than it has to 
 deal thus with other properties in the country. 
 What I complain of, therefore, is this, that such 
 like insinuations about Church property tend to 
 make men think that Church property is more 
 insecure than other properties, which is but to 
 pander to men holding theories hostile to the 
 Church. Whereas, I hold it, that since the 
 State is the guardian of Church property, and has 
 received this trust from times long past, it is the 
 more bound, and not the less, to protect it and 
 secure it to the Church, and to transmit this trust 
 unimpaired to future generations : and the more 
 so because it is employed for the welfare of the 
 people. That the State has not always done this, 
 is no argument against its duty to do this, any
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 225 
 
 more than when a man has failed two or three 
 times in a plain duty, it is an argument in favour 
 of his failing again in it. Such enunciations 
 therefore ought to be severely reprobated, by 
 whomsoever they may be uttered." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " I quite agree with you, 
 that such sentiments ought not to be set forth, 
 for they much unsettle men's minds, leading them 
 to imagine that the State is not to be trusted any 
 more with fresh gifts to the Church, and that some 
 day or another she may prove unfaithful, and, to 
 use a common expression, ' sack' it all. Let it the 
 rather be well settled in the minds of all English- 
 men that the State will always endeavour to do, 
 and uphold, what is right, in matters relating to 
 the Church, as well as to other bodies, and that 
 she will maintain and secure the Church in her 
 ancient endowments, as well as her more recent 
 ones, as she would that of other owners to their 
 property. " 
 
 John Bull : " Such sentiments are worthy of 
 you, madam, and I doubt not the country will 
 endorse them, and support you in your desire to do 
 right to all. To listen to what some people say 
 they would make us believe that wrong was right, 
 and right was wrong, and that we did not know
 
 2l ) f THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 whether we stood upon our heads or our heels ; 
 but this kind of talk must end in smoke, and get 
 dispersed, though for the while it obscures men's 
 visions." 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadneedle Street : " It 
 has been calculated that within the last fifty years 
 no less a sum than seventy-five millions have been 
 voluntarily contributed to the Church,* but whether 
 the sum be less or more, we care not, for it is not 
 essential to our purpose to name the exact sum ; it 
 is the principle that we contend for, that the 
 Church shall have and enjoy her own, and remain 
 as securely, and as undisturbed in her possession 
 of them, whether they were given long ago, or 
 only lately, as any other religious body in the 
 country." 
 
 John Bull : " It is my opinion that the enemies 
 of the Church would fain take away all that she 
 has, even her recent endowments, and that they 
 would strip her bare and turn her out penniless 
 
 Another calculation makes it considerably more. Mr. H. Cecil 
 Raikcs, M.P., is reported to have stated at the late Church Con- 
 gress held at Hath, that during the past forty years 2,000,000 
 annually had been sunk in permanent investments for the benefit 
 of the Church, and not less than 1,300,000 had been subscribed in 
 addition annually for purely parochial purposes. If, then, we cal- 
 culate the latter sum to have been sunk in current expenses, the 
 former sum will give jt 80, 000, 000 for only forty years.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 227 
 
 into the world, if it were not from the fear that 
 people would cry 'shame upon them ;' and that 
 they might be called upon to give up their own 
 possessions as well, if this were done ; and there- 
 fore they try to make it appear that they mean to 
 be gracious towards the Church would not despoil 
 her of what she has recently acquired thinking no 
 doubt also that they may be the more likely to rob 
 her of her ancient endowments. But it is all of 
 a piece with their unscrupulous audacity. And 
 things are not as they should be in the countiy, 
 when one portion of the country is kept in fear 
 that they will be despoiled of their lawful and 
 ancient possessions by another portion; and I verily 
 believe that a civil war would break out did the 
 legislature consent to such a deed. But I have 
 great hopes that the good sense of the people will 
 lead them steadily to set their faces against any 
 such attempt. Still it seems to me, if I may be 
 allowed to speak my mind, that with such a con- 
 stitutional government as we have in England, 
 such an event should not even be entertained, as 
 the right of all classes and societies should be 
 firmly respected and upheld." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Well said, my friend ; but 
 I fancy there is a covert reproof for me in your 
 words."
 
 228 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 The Lady from Threadneedle Street : " Endow- 
 ments are usually made by wealthy persons for 
 the special benefit of the people, or their poor 
 neighbours. But who will like to endow institu- 
 tions when it is uncertain what will be done with 
 the money in fifty years time ? What encourage- 
 ment is there for liberal-minded men to secure 
 some advantage to the people by an endowment if 
 government admit the principle that such endow- 
 ments may be diverted from the object designed 
 by the donor ? If this reckless interference with 
 the ancient endowments of the country be once 
 permitted it will be one of the heaviest blows that 
 can be given to those kindly feelings and acts 
 which are beginning to revive again in these days, 
 whereby men of large hearts provide more efficient 
 means to encourage learning, to alleviate the hard 
 lot of the poor and outcasts, and to enable them to 
 worship God, in the beautiful sanctuary of His 
 house, as well as their neighbours who can pay 
 for their minister. If endowments become prac- 
 tically hurtful or useless, this is a different matter; 
 but so long as they are useful and advantageous to 
 the country, there ought not, for one moment, to 
 be any fear of their absolute security and continu- 
 ance.
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 229 
 
 A bequest, or the gift of a donor ought to 
 be held, under these circumstances, sacred and 
 inviolable : for it is the disposal of that which the 
 law allows to be his own, and for an object also 
 which the law permits and sanctions. Ere the first 
 French revolution had fully broken out Robespierre 
 cried out in the Constituent Assembly, ' Is a man 
 to be allowed to dispose of the land he cultivated, 
 after he himself has gone to dust?' and we know 
 the result which such revolutionary sentiments led 
 to, and will again lead to, if allowed to gain currency 
 among us. No, no ! Such sentiments as these 
 must receive no encouragement from good men, or 
 from those in authority. The will of a pious 
 founder, or the gift of a noble heart, ought to be 
 the more securely protected after death than in 
 life : for the will of the dead is a duty imposed upon 
 the living, and it is ever the province of a wise and 
 stable government to see that it is faithfully ob- 
 served. 
 
 That endowments have largely increased, during 
 the last fifty or sixty years, for other objects, as 
 well as for the Church, is a most hopeful sign of a 
 growing sympathy existing among us, which greatly 
 tends to strengthen the bands of society ; and it is 
 something more, it is a sign, notwithstanding all
 
 230 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 the foolish and bitter talk there has been, that 
 there is still great confidence in the country a 
 growing confidence that the State will uphold and 
 maintain the endowments that have been made, 
 whether those of late years, or those in days 
 long ago. And great care should be exercised 
 that this confidence be not shaken or abused by 
 those in authority." 
 
 Madam Britannia : "In a free country like ours, 
 and where there is such a diversity of opinions, some 
 latitude of speech and action must be allowed. 
 Besides it is the duty of the Legislature to interfere 
 in correcting evils, and regulating existing rights, 
 so that one be no ways injurious to another; and 
 that the rights of all may be protected and pro- 
 moted. For in the constant changes of time there 
 is a necessity for readjusting rights, and fixing 
 upon the best way in which the seveial rights of 
 individuals, families, and societies, should be exer- 
 cised in order to help rather than hinder each other 
 in their common development. And then further, 
 by reason of the avarice and other passions of men, 
 there is also a necessity of protecting by force, the 
 rights and interests of all from every unjust and 
 violent attack, whether from within or from with- 
 out. The Civil power must first of all guard
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 231 
 
 against having its own authority injured or weak- 
 ened, and then, whilst guarding all other rights 
 from harm, promote their efficiency, or afford 
 facility to the full development and use of them." 
 
 The Old Lady from Threadneedle Street : " So 
 far I think you are right, but in applying what you 
 say, I think you strengthen what our friend, Mr. 
 Bull, says with regard to Church property ; for 
 surely the Church, as well as any other religious 
 body, should have her Rights protected and pro- 
 moted ; and there ought to be no fear in the 
 country that the State will ever sanction or en- 
 courage their overthrow, but a prevailing trust that 
 the State will act uprightly, and rather shrink and 
 withdraw from in anywise impairing, absorbing, or 
 trampling upon the Rights of the Church." 
 
 Madam Britannia : "The sovereign power in a 
 country, in whatever form it exists, or however it 
 has been derived, has its limits, I allow, as well as 
 its duties; it cannot legitimately injure, or en- 
 croach upon, existing rights, whether they be the 
 rights of the individual, the rights of the family, 
 the rights of the Church, or the rights of volun- 
 tary associations ; for these are prior to the exist- 
 ence of State power, which has indeed been called 
 into existence, and is upheld, for the very purpose 
 
 R
 
 232 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 of regulating and defending these several rights, 
 and clear the way to the free exercise of them. 
 Every individual has, by his own natural right, the 
 power of associating himself with his fellows, so 
 long as he does it openly and for objects which are 
 not subversive of morality and the public peace. 
 And in like manner all other rights are to be 
 acknowledged and maintained. And to infringe 
 upon the rights of individuals, separately or col- 
 lectively, either in restraining their liberty, beyond 
 what necessity requires, or taking from any of 
 them what of natural right belongs to them, is an 
 abuse of power, and a frustration of the object for 
 which civil power is intrusted to the State." 
 
 Mother Church : " It is much to be desired that 
 these views respecting the duties and limits of 
 the civil or legislative power were better under- 
 stood and regarded : for if there was a sincere 
 desire to act upon them, as I doubt not it is your 
 wish, Madam, there would be little difficulty, not 
 only in securing to the Church what is her own, 
 but in affording facilities for correcting abuses, 
 and granting more liberty of action within the 
 Church than at present exists." 
 
 John Bull : " I am decidedly against any sepa- 
 ration of Church and State, mind you. I once
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 233 
 
 thought it would be necessary, and must come 
 before long ; but I don't think so now. It is not 
 only not necessary, but it would be an evil day 
 for this country should it ever take place : that I 
 can see perfectly well ; but this is not your design, 
 Madam, I think." 
 
 Mother Church : " Oh, no ! I am opposed to 
 it, as much as yourself, as you may judge from 
 what I have already said on a previous occasion. 
 But what I mean is, that whilst still keeping 
 the connection up in full vigour, the Sovereign, 
 through her government, still holding supreme 
 authority in all matters Ecclesiastical, the Church 
 should be allowed greater liberty and freedom of 
 action ; as for instance, in the election of Bishops. 
 Why might not the Queen be permitted to issue 
 a conge d'elire to the Clergy and Laity of a Diocese 
 upon a vacancy occurring, to elect a Bishop, not 
 indicating the person they must choose, but re- 
 quiring that the election be approved by the 
 Sovereign in Council, and the Bishop elect to 
 pay homage as at present.* 
 
 The wording of the Act of Parliament under which the 
 Sovereign nominates the Bishops to be elected, shows that this 
 it not a positive duly, but optional; as if to be exercised only in 
 cases of need, as at the time of the Reformation or the Revolu-
 
 234 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 Too many who argue upon this matter respecting 
 the liberty of the Church, think that they must 
 either keep things as they are ie., withholding 
 liberty of action from the Church, which is accorded 
 to other religions bodies, and which is most 
 desirable to develope her well-being ; or, they think 
 that the connection of Church and State must be 
 broken up, and the Church be under no control 
 from the State, from which anarchy is to ensue. I 
 wish I could get all these persons to see and under- 
 stand that all the liberty which is needed for the 
 Church may be safely, and more safely, exercised 
 in connection with the State, than not ; the State 
 still having the power to interfere whenever it be 
 necessary, in every point as it does now ; but only 
 when some apparently sufficient cause may be 
 shewn for this interference. This I believe to be 
 the true principle of liberty, and more in accord- 
 ance with the principles of the British Constitu- 
 tion than that which is at present exercised towards 
 the Church." 
 
 tion. See 31 Henry VIII. c. 19.20, where immediately after the 
 clause for the Submission of the Clergy, there is another where- 
 by the King is permitted to nominate the Bishops. At every 
 TOI lanco the King and his heirs, " may grant ... a license 
 under the great seal . . to an election . . with a letter 
 missive, containing the name of the person which they shall elect 
 and choose."
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 235 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Thank you. This matter 
 must be more fully considered before long. I 
 cannot but hold it to be dangerous suddenly to 
 wrench assunder the union of Church and State ; 
 the two having grown up side by side, and been 
 entwined together so long : still I do not see why 
 the Church should not be considered capable of 
 managing her own affairs, in strict conjunction 
 with the State ; the State having a direction in, and 
 approval of all that is done. Surely it is better for 
 a husband, and it leaves the husband more at 
 liberty too to attend to other matters, and it worries 
 him less, to suffer his wife to attend to matters in 
 her own department, appointing her own house- 
 hold servants, ordering things for the house, settling 
 disputes among the servants, arranging household 
 economies as occasion may require, with the 
 sanction and advice of the husband when needful, 
 than to treat her as an incapable person in such 
 matters. Such a course seems most natural, as 
 well as rational, and wise in many ways. And to 
 allow the wife this liberty of action, surely it is not 
 necessary to separate. This would be as bad, if 
 not worse than to treat her as incapable. So I 
 trust we shall yet have statesmen that will rise 
 equal to the occasion, and able to guide and settle
 
 236 THE THREE VENERABLE 
 
 affairs in such a manner that whilst the Church 
 may be allowed her true liberty, as her natural 
 right, her union with the State may be preserved 
 in the strictest integrity. 
 
 " But tell us before we part, for I know not when 
 we shall meet again, how the Legislature could 
 facilitate reforms in the Church with regard to the 
 sale of private patronage, for I feel that the scandal 
 which is caused thereby at times ought to be 
 remedied without delay ?" 
 
 Mother Church : " Keeping before us the duties 
 laid down of the legislative power, the shortest and 
 best way to prevent scandal would be to pass a 
 short bill, to prevent the public sale of livings in 
 private patronage; and that whenever a private 
 patron desired to part with his patronage, there 
 should be a Church body in each Diocese, repre- 
 sentatives chosen equally from the Clergy and 
 Laity, with the Bishop at their head, who should 
 be empowered to give to such private patrons what 
 the Living would bring at the present market 
 price, which is often not more than from six to 
 seven years purchase : and that they should have 
 powers to sell lands, and invest securely, rearrange 
 the income of these Livings, and have the appoint-
 
 LADIES OF ENGLAND. 237 
 
 ment of Clergymen upon a vacancy. This is but 
 a very rough and brief sketch of the way in which 
 the Legislature might facilitate a reform in the 
 Sale of Livings in private hands; I have given 
 much thought to this matter, but as time presses, 
 I trust what I have said will sufficiently indicate 
 my views on the question." 
 
 Madam Britannia : " Once more let me thank 
 you. The discussions we have had together so far 
 on Church Politics have not been lost upon me ; 
 and will bear fruit, I think." 
 
 Some inquiry was now made as to when they 
 should meet again to discuss further some of the 
 other Eights of the Church, which had been 
 previously named. They all felt that the considera- 
 tion of them must ere long come to the front, and 
 that it was very desirable to discuss them fully and 
 calmly by themselves. Nothing definitely, how- 
 ever, was settled, and it was therefore left open for 
 them to meet as they should afterwards find 
 fitting opportunity. 
 
 There was now a general movement to leave, 
 and having wished each other a cordial ' good bye,' 
 they severally took their departure.
 
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