';
 
 A 
 
 CONVERSATION ON MUSIC 
 
 ANTON RUBINSTEIN 
 
 TRANSLATED FOR THE AUTHOR 
 
 BY 
 
 MRS. JOHN P. MORGA'N. 
 
 PRICE : Cloth, $1.00. 
 
 CHAS. F. TRETBAR, Publisher, Steinway Hall, New York. 
 
 Copyright, 1892, by C. F. TRETBAR.
 
 A CONVERSATION ON MUSIC. 
 
 Madame von honors me with a visit at my 
 villa in Peterhof ; after the usual salutations she 
 expresses a wish to inspect my home surround- 
 ings; in the music-room she notices the busts of 
 J. S. Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, and 
 Glinka on the walls, and, greatly surprised, 
 asks: 
 
 Why only these and not also Handel, Haydn, 
 Mozart and others'? 
 
 These are the ones whom I most revere in 
 my art. 
 
 Then you do not revere Mozart? 
 
 Himalaya and Chimborazo are the highest 
 peaks of the earth j that does not imply, however, 
 that Mt. Blanc is a little mountain.
 
 But Mozart is generally considered this 
 highest point of which you speak ! he has indeed 
 given us in his Operas, the highest of which 
 music is capable. 
 
 To me the Opera is altogether a subordinate 
 branch of our art. 
 
 In that you are exactly opposed to the views 
 of the present day, they advocate vocal music as 
 the highest expression of music. 
 
 That I am. First, because the human voice 
 sets a limit to melody which the instrument does 
 not, and of which the emotion of the human soul, 
 be it joy or sorrow, does not admit. Second, be- 
 cause words, even, the most beautifully poetised, 
 are not capable of expressing exuberance of feel- 
 ing, hence the very correct, "inexpressible." 
 Third, because a human being may, in the most 
 exalted joy, hum or carol a melody to himself, 
 but could and would not set words to it even as 
 in the deepest sorrow he may perhaps hum a mel- 
 ody to himself, most certainly, however, without 
 words. Fourth, because the tragic in no opera
 
 sounds or can sound as it is heard in the 2d move- 
 ment of Beethoven's D minor Trio, or in the 
 Adagios of his F major, E minor, F minor and 
 other string-quartets, or in the prelude in E flat- 
 minor of Bach's u Wohl temperirte Clavier," or 
 in the E minor prelude of Chopin; likewise no 
 Requiem, not even the Mozart (Confutatis and 
 Lachrimosa excepted), makes an impression so 
 deeply moving as the 2d movement of the Sym- 
 phony a Eroica " of Beethoven (a whole mass for 
 the dead!), or contains the same proportion of the 
 expression of joy and the soul's emotions in gen- 
 eral as are heard in the instrumental works 
 of the great masters. To me, for instance, the 
 Leonore Overture, No. 3, and the Introduction to 
 the 2d Act of Fidelio are a much higher ex- 
 pression of this drama than the Opera itself. 
 
 There are, however, composers who have 
 written vocal music exclusively; do you conse- 
 quently despise them! 
 
 Such composers seem to me like people who 
 only have the right to answer questions proposed
 
 to them, not, however, to ask questions or to de- 
 clare and express themselves. 
 
 But why does every composer, and as is 
 well known did Beethoven, also, long to write an 
 Opera I 
 
 Quick and general recognition has in it some- 
 thing very enticing to see gods, kings, priests, 
 heroes, peasants, men of all times, all climes, and 
 of every art, act and sing to one's melodies, has 
 something, indeed, enticing in it the highest, 
 however, remains to express one's self about them, 
 and that can be done instrumentally only. 
 
 The public, however, prefers the Opera to the 
 Symphony. 
 
 Because it understands the Opera more 
 readily. Aside from the interest which the subject 
 of the play awakens, the words explain the music 
 to it. To be wholly enjoyable, the Symphony re- 
 quires the comprehension of music and this qual- 
 ity is possessed only in the smallest proportion by 
 the public. Instrumental music is the soul of music 
 but this truth must be anticipated, sought out,
 
 discovered, fathomed. The public does not trouble 
 itself to do this in listening to a work! All the 
 beauties to be found in the instrumental works of 
 the great masters (classic) are known to the pub- 
 lic from childhood, through the enthusiasm of 
 parents or the expressed opinions of its teachers, 
 which a priori admiration it brings with it ; should 
 it, however, be obliged to discover their beauties 
 of itself, it would be sparing of its applause, even 
 to the classical works, now-a-days. 
 
 I see that you are entirely predisposed in 
 favor of instrumental music. 
 
 Not exclusively, of course, but at all events 
 in a high degree. 
 
 Mozart has written very much instrumental 
 music of all kinds, too. 
 
 And wondrously beautiful; but Mt. Blanc is 
 still not as high as Chimborazo. 
 
 How is it then that Chopin and Grlinka are 
 among your prophets ? 
 
 To explain that, would, I am afraid, weary 
 you or interest you too little.
 
 8 
 
 I beg you to do so, with the single condition 
 that you do not oblige me to agree with all you 
 may say. 
 
 On the contrary, I wish very much to hear 
 the objections to my opinions, only do not be too 
 much frightened by my paradoxes ! 
 
 I am all ear. 
 
 It has always been a matter of interesting 
 speculation to me whether and in tvhat degree music 
 not only reflects the individuality and spiritual 
 emotion of the composer, but is also the echo or re- 
 frain of the age, the historical events, the state of 
 society, culture, etc., in which it is written. And 
 I am convinced that it does and is so, even to the 
 smallest detail that even the costumes and fashions 
 of the time in which the composer writes are to be 
 recognized, entirely aside from the quaint "cue" 
 which usually serves as a characteristic of a certain 
 epoch only, however, since music has become a 
 language of its own and not the mere interpreter 
 of set words, viz.: since the flourish of instrumen- 
 tal music.
 
 9 
 
 It is generally held that music does not admit 
 of any positive characteristic at all; that one 
 and the same melody may sound gay or sad, ac- 
 cording to the character of the words to which it 
 is sung. 
 
 To me instrumental music alone is the stand- 
 ard, and I hold that music is a language to be 
 sure of a hieroglyphic tone image, character; 
 one must first have deciphered the hieroglyphics,, 
 then, however, he may read all that the composer 
 intends to say, and there remains only the more 
 partictdar indication of the meaning the latter is 
 the task of the interpreter. For example: 
 Beethoven's Sonata, op. 81; in the first move- 
 ment, designated "Les adieux" the character of 
 the Allegro, after the introduction, does not 
 throughout give expression to the usual idea of 
 sorrow at parting. What then is to be deci- 
 phered from these hieroglyphics? The care and 
 preparation for departure, the numberless fare- 
 wells, the sincere sympathy of those remaining 
 behind, the varied reflections on the long journey,,
 
 10 
 
 the good wishes, in a word all the exchanges of 
 endearment usual in leaving those we love. The 
 second movement is called u L J absence'," if the 
 executant be able to express the soulful tone of 
 sorrow and longing in his interpretation, no 
 further explanation is necessary. The third 
 movement is called " Lc retour" and the inter- 
 preter has to present to his hearers a whole poem 
 on the joys of return. The first theme of un- 
 speakable tenderness (one almost sees the tearful 
 glance of happiness in meeting) then the joy that 
 it is well with him, the interest in the recounting 
 of his experience and the ever recurring : " What 
 a joy to see you again! do not leave us (me) 
 again! we (I) shall not let him go again," and so 
 on. Before the close another glance of pleased 
 satisfaction, then the embrace and climax of happi- 
 ness. Is it possible not to call instrumental music 
 a language ? Of course, if the first movement be 
 rendered merely in a lively tempo, the second 
 merely in a slow tempo, and the third merely in 
 a spirited tempo, the executant feeling no neces-
 
 11 
 
 sity for further expression, then we might call in- 
 strumental music non-expressive, and regard vo- 
 cal music as alone capable of real expression. 
 Another example: The ballad in F major, No. 
 2 of Chopin. Is it possible that the interpreter 
 does not feel the necessity of representing to his 
 hearers: a field flower caught by a gust of wind, 
 a caressing of the flower by the wind, the resist- 
 ance of the flower, the stormy struggle of the 
 wind, the entreaty of the flower which at last lies 
 troken there. This may also be paraphrased, 
 the field flower, a rustic maiden, the wind a 
 knight, and thus with almost every instrumental 
 composition. 
 
 Then you are an advocate of " programme 
 
 a M 
 
 music I " 
 
 Not altogether. I am in favor of the to-be- 
 divined and poetized, not of the given programme 
 of a composition. I am convinced that every com- 
 poser writes, not merely notes in a given 
 key, a given tempo, a given rhythm ; but, on 
 the contrary, encloses a mood of the tone, that
 
 12 
 
 is, a programme in his composition, in the rational 
 hope that the interpreter and hearer may appre- 
 hend it. Sometimes he gives his composition a 
 general name, that is, a guide for interpreter and 
 hearer, and more than this is not necessary, for 
 a detailed programme of emotion is not to be re- 
 produced in words. Thus I understand programme 
 music, not, however, in the sense of the reflected 
 tone-painting of certain things or events; the 
 latter is admissible only in the sense of the naive 
 or comic. 
 
 But the Pastorale Symphony of Beethoven is 
 certainly tone-painting ! 
 
 The Pastorale establishes a characteristic 
 expression in music of the rustic, the merry, the 
 simple, the hardy (represented by the fifths in 
 bass and organ point*). Besides this there are 
 imitations of natural phenomena, as storm, thun- 
 der, lightning, etc., exactly the above-mentioned 
 naivete in music, as well as the imitation of the 
 
 * ) This has no reference to the Russian Pastorale, the character 
 of which is quite different, and is mostly of a vocal art.
 
 13 
 
 cuckoo, and the twitter of birds. Aside from 
 this tone-painting Beethoven's Symphony mirrors 
 only the mood of nature and the rustic; that is, 
 programme music in its most logical expression. 
 
 The Romantic-Fantastic style : elves, witches, 
 fairies, nixies, gnomes, demons, good and evil 
 spirits, spectres, and so forth without a programme 
 is inconceivable ? ! 
 
 And quite correctly, as it is based entirely on 
 naivete in the composer as well as in the hearer. 
 
 But every piece of music published now-a- 
 days (with the exception of those in which the title 
 designates the musical form, as sonata, etc.) bears 
 a name, that is, a programme designation ? ! 
 
 The publishers are mostly to blame for that; 
 they compel the composer to give his composition 
 a name in order to spare the public the trouble 
 of having to apprehend it, and many titles, such 
 as Nocturno, Romanze, Impromptu, Caprice, Bar- 
 carole, etc., having become stereotype, facilitate 
 the understanding and rendering of the composi- 
 tion for the public; otherwise these works would
 
 14 
 
 run the risk of receiving names from the public 
 itself. How droll this may become is sufficiently 
 shown by one example : u The Moonlight Sonata." 
 Moonlight demands in music the expression of 
 the dreamy, fanciful, peaceful a soft, mild radi- 
 ance. Now the first movement of the C sharp 
 minor Sonata is tragic from the first to the last 
 note (the minor key itself indicates as much); 
 a beclouded heaven, the gloomy mood of the 
 soul the last movement is stormy, passionate, 
 and the exact opposite of peaceful radiance ; the 
 short second movement alone would in any case 
 allow of a momentary moonlight and this sonata 
 is universally called " The Moonlight Sonata ! " 
 
 You claim then that the composer alone can 
 give his work a proper title 1 
 
 I will not say that. Even with Beethoven's 
 appellations, the Pastorale Symphony and Sonata 
 op. 81 excepted, I cannot declare myself satisfied. 
 If I did so I should be obliged to assume that he- 
 determined the name of the whole composition 
 according to the character of one movement^
 
 15 
 
 or the theme of one movement, or an episodic 
 phrase of one movement. For example: u Sonata 
 Patlictiquc" probably so called from the charac- 
 ter of the introduction, and its episodical repe- 
 tition during the first movement ; for the theme 
 of the first allegro bears a decidedly dramatic, 
 animated character 5 and the second theme with 
 its mordents is anything rather than pathetic, 
 and even the last movement what indeed of 
 the pathetic does it contain ? Only the second 
 movement, at most, would admit of this title. 
 The same is true, in my opinion, of the Sym- 
 phony "Eroica." The idea of heroic is in 
 musical language the valorous, splendid, defiant, 
 or, in other words, the tragic. That the first move- 
 ment is not intended to be tragic is indicated at 
 once by the major key 5 the f measure also contra- 
 dicts the idea of a tragic-heroic character. . Besides 
 this, the legato of the first theme indicates a decided 
 lyric character, the second theme has a pronounced 
 longing character, the third theme a sorrowing- 
 dreamy one. That powerful effects appear in
 
 16 
 
 the movement proves nothing. Powerful moments 
 may also be found in compositions of a melancholy 
 character, but a movement in which all of the 
 themes are of a decidedly anti-heroic character 
 I cannot designate heroic. The third movement 
 of the symphony is probably a merry music of 
 the chase 5 the fourth movement, a theme with 
 variations, of which two at most have a heroic 
 colour, might indeed be called of heroic character 
 if it entered forte, wdth the brass instruments. 
 The title then is given to the Symphony only on 
 .account of the second movement, which indeed is 
 of an entirely tragic-heroic character ! This is 
 an evidence that at that time one could give a 
 title to his work which corresponded to one only 
 of its movements ; to-day it is otherwise (per- 
 haps more correct) ; a title implies one and the 
 same characteristic for the whole work from 
 beginning to end. 
 
 You speak of instrumental music only, then 
 music for you begins with Haydn ? 
 
 O, much earlier ! Two centuries were needed
 
 17 
 
 to arrive at Haydn's maturity in form and tone 
 effect. I call the time until the second half of the 
 XVI. century the prehistoric era of music as an art, 
 since we know nothing whatever of the music of the 
 ancient Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, or at least 
 only its scientific progress j the latter too only 
 from the time of the Christian era until the 
 above-mentioned age; even of the folk-song*), and 
 the dance rhythm, these two most popular expres- 
 sions of music, there is almost nothing known to 
 us**), hence I denote the above-mentioned date 
 as the beginning of music as an art***). Pales- 
 trina's church compositions are the first works of 
 
 *) With the exception of the Ambrosian and Gregorian 
 chants we cannot say -with certainty whether folk songs, by a 
 setting of religious texts, became church songs or the opposite, 
 that church songs by the use of profane text have become folk- 
 songs. 
 
 **) Of the Troubadours, Mmne-singers, yes, even of the 
 later Meistersingers, we know only the literary history, little 
 or nothing of the musical. 
 
 **) The Netherland epoch I also reckon as only a scientific 
 epoch of the art of music.
 
 18 
 
 art, in the following sense : I call a work of art 
 one in which the merely scientific ceases to be the 
 prescribed standard, and in which a spiritual 
 emotion asserts itself. Frescobaldi's organ com- 
 positions give to this instrument artistic character.; 
 the English composers, Bull, Bird and others, 
 attempt the artistic for the Virginal and Clavecin 
 (our modern pianoforte). 
 
 Can we refer these beginnings of the artistic 
 in music in any manner to the historical events 
 of that day, or to its state of culture ? 
 
 In church music it is the immediate effect 
 of the straits of the Catholic church, whose Popes, 
 incited by the attacks of Protestanism, felt them- 
 selves obliged to carry out a stricter discipline 
 and higher standard in monkish and ecclesiastic 
 affairs, and a more earnest aim and more ideal 
 views in questions of religion. In profane music 
 it is the natural effect of the splendor of the 
 courts of that day, especially the English Court 
 of Elizabeth ; her predilection for music and for 
 the Virginal, which led composers to write
 
 19 
 
 amusingly and, according to the standard of that 
 time, interestingly. 
 
 Do you find in their compositions a sufficient 
 degree of spiritual emotion that you would call 
 them artistic ? 
 
 Certainly not ; 1 would call these the first 
 endeavors to express something instrumentally. 
 
 So these are naive expressions of art ? 
 
 Yes, of course j they are the first programme- 
 music, in the sense of naive imitation, of enter- 
 tainment, for society. This style held sway a 
 whole century, that is, until the lt Suite " (a 
 succession of dances then in vogue); in France 
 even longer, as there the two most distinguished 
 musicians admired this style, and in it did really 
 very remarkable work : Couperin and Rameau. 
 
 And in Italy? 
 
 There, church music flourished especially, 
 but was gradually overshadowed by a new style 
 of art which began to develop itself, viz.: the 
 Opera. In instrumental music, with the excep- 
 tion of numerous organists, only two names can
 
 20 
 
 command our attention, Corelli for the Violin 
 and D. Scarlatti for the Pianoforte.*) The latter 
 called his compositions Sonata, i.e., u sounding," 
 "played" but they have nothing in common with 
 the later sonata form. 
 
 So in instrumental music, and this, if I 
 rightly understand you, is what alone interests 
 you, we were then still in a state of infancy ? 
 
 Quite true, although I would not wish to 
 have Scarlatti, Couperin and Rameau under- 
 valued. The first, on account of his freshness, 
 his humor and his virtuosity ; in the second I 
 appreciate a highly remarkable, artistic nature, 
 and a combatant for higher art aims in an insig- 
 nificant epoch in music, especially in his own 
 country ; the third I esteem as a pioneer and 
 founder of the French Comic Opera, who also 
 composed very ingeniously for the pianoforte. 
 
 *) Compositions written for Clavecin, Clavichord, Clavi- 
 cembalo, Virginal, Spinett, etc., I designate as written for 
 Pianoforte, as to-day we can only perform them on this instru- 
 ment.
 
 21 
 
 But in England, instrumental music, at 
 least for the Pianoforte, must have developed 
 itself, since its first beginnings are discovered 
 there?! 
 
 There, too, vocal music occupied the fore- 
 ground, especially in madrigals and other choral 
 works, but it is as though, with Henry Purcell, 
 this nation had given expression to everything of 
 which it was capable, for after him complete 
 silence reigns, and with the exception of the 
 Oratorio and the Opera (both styles nourished 
 and represented by foreigners) it has so remained 
 almost to the present day, when it begins to 
 wake again. 
 
 One thing is enigmatical to me what 
 Shakespeare could have heard of music there, 
 in his time, that so inspired him with a love 
 for this art? 
 
 Is he not the one among poets who expresses 
 himself the most often and the most enthusiastic- 
 ally on music, and even in his Sonnets on piano- 
 playing.
 
 22 
 
 And in Germany ? 
 
 There church music, with Luther, acquired 
 a new character by the introduction of the Choral 
 and as in Italy, so in Germany distinguished 
 organists appear (Frohberger, Kuhnau, Buxte- 
 hude). In general, however, music as an art, in 
 comparison with Italy, has not as yet reached an 
 important standpoint, but all at once, in the same 
 year, and in villages merely a few hours apart, 
 two names shine forth with which music expresses 
 herself in a splendor, a perfection equal to the 
 "Let there be light!" These two names are: 
 J. S. Bach and G. F. Handel. Church music, 
 organ, pianoforte virtuosity, opera, even the 
 orchestra, everything musical of their time, these 
 two names represent in *a perfection that is incon- 
 ceivable, and bordering on the miraculous. 
 With them music first attains the rank to which 
 she is equally entitled by birth among the arts 
 to be sure she is the youngest sister, but through 
 these masters she receives the perfect stamp of 
 maturity.
 
 23 
 
 And do you consider them equally exalted? 
 
 To me Bach is incomparably higher, because 
 more earnest, more genial, more profound, more 
 inventive, more incommensurable 5 but to com- 
 plete the idea of the art of music at that time, 
 the union of the two names is necessary, if only 
 on account of the remarkable work accomplished 
 by Handel in the Opera, a branch of art which 
 Bach ignored entirely. 
 
 How does your idea that music is the ex- 
 pression of historical events and the standard of 
 the culture of a given time coincide with the still- 
 stand of the art of music in Germany during the 
 whole of the XVII. Century and with the sudden 
 appearance of these two stars ? You can scarcely 
 deny that exactly at this time many great events 
 took place? 
 
 It is oftener the echo than the re-echo, and 
 so also here. It was the war between Catholicism 
 and Protestantism; during the strife, music was 
 only the prayer in the ritual ; the Protestant re- 
 ligion gained an equal footing with the Catholic,
 
 24 
 
 t\ 
 
 that is, it emerged victoriously from the strife, 
 and Bach and Handel arose to sing her Hymn of 
 Victory ! 
 
 But were they not fundamentally different 
 in style ? 
 
 Certainly, that arises naturally from the dif- 
 ference in the style of life of each and its de- 
 mands. Bach moved in a small world, lived in 
 several, then insignificant cities (last in Leipzig), 
 in the circle of his large family, in his narrow 
 calling of Cantor at the church of St. Thomas; 
 his character was serious, deeply religious, patri- 
 archal, of a nature not given to sociability; his 
 dress unpretending and plain, and he was an 
 indefatigable worker, even to blindness. Handel 
 lived mostly in the great city of London, had the 
 patronage of the Court and of the public, was an 
 Opera Director, was compelled to write Court and 
 Festival music; we know little of his family, very 
 little of his social life; he wore a long perruque, 
 and in general the elegant dress of the higher 
 English circle; grandeur, splendor, and some
 
 superficiality*) characterize his creations; he 
 wrote Operas, profane and sacred Oratorios, few 
 instrumental works (the most beautifully in his 
 Pianoforte Suites), thus, seldom intime, soulful, 
 tender. 
 
 To you Bach is more sympathetic, because 
 he has written more instrumental works? 
 
 Not merely on that account, (for has he not 
 written a mass of vocal works unspeakably great 
 and beautiful?) but on account of the qualities be- 
 fore mentioned. I do not deny, however, that he 
 (Bach) appears to me greater at his organ and at 
 his piano. 
 
 You are thinking, of course, of the " Wohl- 
 temperirte Clavier"? 
 
 You probably know the anecdote of Benve- 
 nuto Cellini, who had a great work to cast for the 
 King of France, and found himself without 
 
 *) Proof thereof, the possibility of transforming an Opera num- 
 ber into an Oratorio and vice versa, an Oratorio number into an 
 Opera, which he, as is well known not seldom did ; also the ra- 
 pidity of his work the Messiah was written in three weeks, and 
 immediately after that "Samson," in as short a time.
 
 26 
 
 material enough to finish it; he decided to melt 
 all of his models in order to increase the material; 
 in doing so the model of a little goblet came to 
 hand; he hesitates; that, he will not destroy; it 
 would grieve him too much! The Wohl-temper- 
 irte Clavier is just such a jewel in music. If, un- 
 fortunately, all of Bach's Cantatas, Motettes, 
 Masses, yes, even the Passion-Music, were to be 
 lost, and this alone remained, we would not need 
 despair, music were not entirely destroyed. Now, 
 add to this the Chromatic-Fantasia, the Varia- 
 tions, Partiten, Inventions, the English Suites, 
 the Concertos, the Ciacona, the Piano and Vio- 
 lin Senates, and more than all his Organ Com- 
 positions! Can one measure his greatness? 
 
 Why does the public then call him only the 
 " great scholar " (Grossen Gelehrten), personify him 
 in the fugue, and deny that he has soulful feel- 
 ing? 
 
 From pure ignorance! It is quite right to 
 personify him in the fugue, as this form has in 
 Mm its very greatest representative ; but there is
 
 27 
 
 more of soul in an instrumental cantilena of Bach 
 than in any Opera aria or Church Music ever 
 written. Liszt's saying, that "there is music 
 which comes of itself to us," and other music "that 
 requires us to come to it," is, in the latter sense, 
 as regards Bach, most appropriate. A few come 
 and are blest; the public is not capable of doing 
 so; hence this so fundamentally false opinion of 
 him. 
 
 But is not the fugue after all, a dry, scholas- 
 tic form ? ! 
 
 With all others, but not with Bach. He 
 knew how to express all imaginable emotions in 
 this form if we take the " Wohl-temperirte 
 Clavier" alone, the fugues are of a religious, he- 
 roic, melancholy, majestic, lamenting, humorous, 
 pastoral and dramatic character, alike in one thing 
 only, their beauty! Add to these the preludes 
 whose charm, variety, perfection and splendor are 
 all entrancing. That the same being who could 
 write organ compositions of such astounding gran- 
 deur, could compose Gavottes, Bourrees, Gigues
 
 28 
 
 of such charmingly merry art, Sarabandes so 
 melancholy, little Piano pieces of such witchery 
 and simplicity, is scarcely to be believed. And 
 yet I have mentioned only his instrumental works. 
 When we add to these his gigantic vocal composi- 
 tions, we must come to the conclusion that a time 
 will arrive when it will be said of him as of 
 Homer: "This was not written by one, but by 
 many. 7 ' 
 
 And what remains of greatness for Handel? 
 
 Grandeur, splendor, mass-effect and effect on 
 the masses by simplicity of outline in diatonic 
 construction, (pregnant contrast to Bach's Chro- 
 matics), noble realism, and geniality in general. 
 Aphoristically I would distinguish the two: Bach r 
 a Cathedral; Handel, a Royal Castle; those in 
 the Cathedral speaking low and timidly, impressed 
 by the power of the structure and the exalted 
 magnitude of its fundamental idea.*) In the 
 Royal Castle the loud exclamations of wondering 
 
 *) That is in general the impression of the hearer in listening 
 to the performance of a work by Bach.
 
 29 
 
 admiration, and the feeling of humility awaken- 
 ed by the splendor, brilliancy, and grandeur. 
 
 Then we must admit that after these heroes of 
 the art nothing more of the grand and beautiful 
 remains to be created! 
 
 In many directions, not in Church music, 
 in Oratorio, for the Organ. Altogether I recog- 
 nize in them the point of climax in the first epoch 
 of the art of music; that is, beginning, according 
 to my estimation, with Palestrina. But new times 
 demanding new expression in art came after these 
 two; new lyric, romantic, dramatic, tragic and 
 fantastic styles resound, and lastly, nationality; 
 these all represented by great spirits and so the 
 art of music still makes enormous advancement. 
 A new era breaks upon us the Orchestra sup- 
 plants the Organ; the Opera the Oratorio and 
 the Church-cantata; the Sonata supplants the 
 Suite; the Pianoforte supplants the Clavecin, 
 Clavicembalo, Clavichord, etc. But, although the 
 Opera alone ruled the public for almost half of our 
 century, instrumental music developed itself more
 
 30 
 
 and more, and in it alone we recognize advance- 
 ment in the art of music, and that in Germany 
 only. On the other hand, Italy and France de- 
 voted themselves exclusively to vocal music. For 
 this reason I, who recognize the ideal of my art in 
 instrumental music alone, call music a German art. 
 
 We have came now to Haydn and Mozart? 
 
 Not yet. There is one still to be mentioned 
 who, singularly enough, has only lately begun to 
 be acknowledged as he deserves, and whom I re- 
 gard as the Father of the second (instrumental) 
 epoch of the art of music, and who has done most 
 important work in that field in which the masters 
 named by you were able to present us with so 
 much of the beautiful that is, Philipp Emanuel 
 Bach. It is an error altogether, in music, to say 
 Tie created the Opera, he the Symphony, he the 
 String-quartette, he the Sonata, and so on. Every- 
 thing has had its origin in many, and little by 
 little; then one always appears who accomplishes 
 the most beautiful in that particular form, and at 
 once becomes the bearer of its name.
 
 31 
 
 Is Ph. Em. Bach in no-wise the legitimate 
 successor of his father in music ! ? 
 
 In the sense of geniality, certainly not; but 
 he was the representative of a new time, of new 
 ideas in the art. By his treatise on rendering 
 and on the styles of expression in Piano playing 
 alone, he opened new fields to the composers of 
 this more and more prominent instrument; in 
 his compositions also we find the germs of 
 all later efforts. Haydn's amiability and naivete, 
 Mozart's loving tenderness, even Beethoven'^ 
 dramatique and humor are indicated only, to be 
 sure, but none the less is the germ apparent, filling 
 in this manner the connecting link between J. S. 
 Bach and Haydn, and in so doing, drawing music 
 from North Germany to Vienna. 
 
 This transmigration of music for a half cen- 
 tury, and its return to North Germany is quite 
 remarkable. Instrumental music develops more 
 and more, and becomes in an astonishing manner 
 the pronounced expression, the echo or re-echo 
 of the age, its historical events and its state of
 
 32 
 
 culture. It is scarcely possible to imagine a 
 truer picture of the last quarter of the XVIII. 
 century until 1825 than is sung in the works of 
 Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert, espe- 
 cially in reference to Vienna. This, of course, is 
 not to be understood as literal or plastic expres- 
 sion, but as tone-allegorical, relative, and affinitive. 
 An amiable, genial, merry, naive, careless tone ; 
 not touching in the slightest degree upon the weal 
 and woe of mankind, or the spirit of the world 
 and its sorrows; bringing his Maecenas (Prince 
 Esterhazy) a new symphony or a new string- 
 quartette almost every Sunday, that good old 
 gentleman, with his pockets full of bon-bons (in 
 a musical sense) for the children (the public), 
 however always ready to give the badly -behaved a 
 sharp reprimand; the good-natured faithful subject 
 and functionary, the just and strict teacher, the 
 good-souled pastor, the distinguished citizen in 
 powdered perruque and cue, in a long, broad frock, 
 in frill and lace, in buckled shoes all that I hear 
 in the music of Haydn. I hear him speak, not
 
 33 
 
 High-German, but in Vienna dialect. Whenever 
 I play or hear his compositions, I see his public ; 
 ladies who, on account of the prevailing toilette, 
 can scarcely move themselves, and who smile and 
 nod, applauding his graceful melodies and naive 
 musical merriment with their fans. Gentlemen 
 who, taking a pinch of snuff, snap the box-lid 
 down with the words : ll Nay, after all, there is 
 nothing to compare with our good old Haydn!" 
 ( u Ya, uber unsern alien Haydn geht halt doch 
 nix!"). We have to thank him for very much 
 as regards instrumental music. He brought the 
 symphonic orchestra almost to Beethoven's matur- 
 ity, stamped the string-quartette as one of the 
 most noble and most beautiful forms of music, 
 gave grace and elegance to pianoforte composition 
 and technique, and enriched, broadened and 
 systematized instrumental forms. Yes, he is a 
 remarkable personage in the art, but withal, the 
 amiable, smiling (sometimes sarcastic), careless, 
 contented old gentleman in his " Creation," as 
 well as in his " Seasons," in his Symphonies as
 
 34 
 
 well as in his Quartettes, in his Sonatas as well 
 as in his Pianoforte pieces in short, in his whole 
 musical creation. 
 
 And Mozart ? 
 
 Just as Haydn, as the old Haydn, becomes a 
 type, so Mozart, as the young Mozart, may be 
 called a type. Although as to his age and sur- 
 roundings, standing on the same level of culture 
 with Haydn, he is young, sincere, tender in 
 everything j the journeys of his childhood also 
 had an influence on his musical thoughts and 
 feeling. In consequence the Opera became his 
 chief work, but his entire Ego he gives us in his 
 instrumental works, and there I hear him too, like 
 Haydn, speak the Vienna dialect. Helios of 
 music I would call him ! He has illuminated all 
 forms of music with his splendor, on one and all 
 impressed this stamp of the god-like. We are at a 
 loss which to admire most in him, his melody or 
 his technic, his crystal clearness or the richness 
 of his invention. The symphony in G minor 
 (this unicum of symphonic lyric), the last move-
 
 35 
 
 ment of the "Jupiter" Symphony (this unicum 
 in symphonic technic), the overtures to the "Zau- 
 berflote," or to "Figaro's Hochzeit" (these uni- 
 ca of the merry, the fresh, the god-like), the 
 Requiem (this unicum of sweet tone-in-sorrow), 
 the Pianoforte Fantasias, the String Quintette in 
 G minor; in the latter it is not uninteresting to 
 see verified how greatly wealth of melody out- 
 weighs everything else in music. We demand 
 generally, in quartette style, a polyphonic treat- 
 ment of the voices; here however, homophony 
 reigns, the very simplest accompaniment to every 
 theme that enters and we revel in the enjoy- 
 ment of this divine melodie ! and at last, besides 
 all these, the wonderful instrumental works, the 
 wonderful operas ! Gluck, it is true, had achieved 
 great things in the opera before him ; yes, opened 
 new paths but in comparison with Mozart he is, 
 so to say, of stone. Besides, Mozart has the 
 merit of having removed the opera from the icy 
 pathos of mythology into real life, into the purely 
 human, and from the Italian to the German
 
 36 
 
 language, and thereby to a national path. The 
 most remarkable feature of his operas is the 
 musical characteristic he has given to every 
 figure, so that each acting personage has become 
 an immortal type. It is true that the happy 
 choice of material and its excellent scenic treat- 
 ment was of great assistance in this. 
 
 The text to the "Magic-Flute" is generally 
 considered childish and ludicrous!! 
 
 I hold a contrary opinion even if it were 
 only on account of the variety it offers to the 
 musician. Pathetic, fantastic, lyric, comic, naive, 
 romantic, dramatic, tragic, yes, it would be hard 
 to find an expression that is wanting in it. The 
 case is the same in Don Juan. It is evident the 
 genius of a Mozart was required to reproduce it all 
 musically, as he has done; but such Opera texts 
 might incite less genial composers to interesting 
 work. 
 
 But that which lie has made, he alone could 
 make ! 
 
 Yes, a god-like creation all flooded with
 
 37 
 
 light. In hearing Mozart I always wish to ex- 
 claim: "Eternal sunshine in music, thy name is 
 Mozart!" 
 
 It is incomprehensible to me, how you, while 
 giving him such exhalted admiration, still do not 
 give him the highest recognition. 
 
 Mankind thirsts for a storm it feels that it 
 may become dry and parched in the Eternal 
 Haydn-Mozart sunshine; it wishes to express 
 itself earnestly, it longs for action, it becomes dra- 
 matic, the French revolution breaks forth 
 Beethoven appears! 
 
 But you do not mean to say that Beethoven 
 is the musical reverberation of the French Revo- 
 lution ? 
 
 Not the Guillotine , of course, but at all events 
 of that great drama; in no-wise history set to 
 music, but the tragedy echoing in music which is 
 called "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!" 
 
 He is, however, the positive continuation of 
 the Haydn and Mozart period, at least in the 
 works of his first period.
 
 38 
 
 The forms in his first period are the forms 
 then reigning, but the line of thought is, even in 
 the works of his youth, a wholly different one. 
 The last movement in his first Pianoforte Sonata 
 (F minor), more especially in the second theme, 
 is already a new world of emotion, expression, 
 pianoforte effect, and even pianoforte technic. So 
 too, the Adagio in the second Sonata (A major), 
 the Adagio in the first String-Quartette (F major), 
 and so on. And already the treatment of the in- 
 struments in his first three Trios is entirely differ- 
 ent from that used until then. In the works of 
 his first period altogether, as I have said, we re- 
 cognize only the formulae of the earlier composers; 
 for, although the garb still remains the same for 
 a time, we hear even in these works, that natural 
 hair will soon take the place of the powdered per- 
 ruque and cue; that boots, instead of buckled 
 shoes, will change the gait of the man (in music, 
 too); that the coat, instead of the broad frock 
 with the steel buttons, will give him another bear- 
 ing, and even these works resound with the
 
 39 
 
 loving tone (as in Haydn and Mozart) the soulful 
 tone (not apparent in the former), and very soon 
 after with the aesthetic (as in them), the ethic 
 (in them wanting), and we become aware that 
 he supplants the Menuet with the Scherzo, and 
 so stamps his works with a more virile and 
 earnest character; that through him instrumental 
 music will be capable of expressing the dramatic 
 even to the tragic, that humor may rise to irony, 
 that music in general has acquired an entirely 
 new art of expression. His greatness in the 
 Adagio is astounding, from the innermost 
 lyric to the metaphysical; yes, he attains to the 
 mystical in this art of expression. But he is en- 
 tirely unapproached in his Scherzos (some of 
 them I would compare with the jester in "King 
 Lear.") Smiling, laughing, merry-making, not 
 seldom bitterness, irony, effervescence, in short, 
 a world of psychological expression is heard in 
 them. Emanating not from a human being, but 
 as from an invisible Titan, who now rejoices 
 over humanity, now is offended; now makes him-
 
 40 
 
 self merry over them and again weeps enough, 
 wholly incommensurable ! 
 
 Well, it will be difficult to come into contra- 
 diction with you in regard to Beethoven, because 
 all equally admire him. 
 
 And yet I entertain some difference of 
 opinion in regard to him which I cannot refrain 
 from expressing. Thus, for example, I consider 
 "Fidelio" the greatest opera in existence to-day, 
 because it is the true music drama in every par- 
 ticular ; because, with all the reality of the musical 
 characteristic, there is always the most beautiful 
 melody; because, notwithstanding all interest in 
 the orchestra, the latter does not speak for the 
 acting persons upon the stage, but lets them 
 speak for themselves; because every tone of it 
 comes from the deepest and truest of the soul and 
 must reach the soul of the hearer and still it is 
 the generally accepted opinion that Beethoven 
 could not be an opera composer. I do not regard 
 his u Missa solemnis" as one of his greatest 
 creations, and it is generally regarded as such.
 
 41 
 
 May I ask why it does not find grace m 
 your eyes? 
 
 Because, aside / from the purely musical in it, 
 with which in many ways I do not sympathize, I 
 hear in the whole composition a being who speaks 
 with God, disputes with Him, but does not pray 
 to Him nor adore Him as he has done so beauti- 
 fully in his u Geistliche Lieder" ("Spiritual 
 songs"). I do not either share the opinion that 
 the use of the vocal in the last movement of the 
 Ninth Symphony was a desire on his part for* a 
 culmination of the musical expression in a tech- 
 nical sense for the symphony in general but on 
 the contrary, that after the " unutterable " of the 
 first three movements he intended to have some- 
 thing utterable, hence the last movement, with 
 addition of the vocal (with words). I do not 
 believe that this last movement is intended as 
 the Ode to Joy but the Ode to Freedom. It is 
 said that Schiller was moved by the censure he 
 received, to write Freude instead of Freiheit 
 (joy instead of freedom), and that Beethoven.
 
 42 
 
 knew this I believe it, most decidedly. Joy is 
 not acquired, it comes, and it is there ; but free- 
 dom must be won hence the theme begins 
 pianissimo in the Bassi, goes through many 
 variations, to ring out finally in a triumphant 
 fortissimo and Freedom too is a very serious 
 thing, hence also the earnest character of the 
 theme. "Seid umschlungen Millionen" ("Be 
 embraced ye millions") is also not reconcilable 
 with joy, since joy is of a more individual 
 character and cannot embrace all mankind and 
 in the same way, many other things. 
 
 So you also do not share the opinion that 
 Beethoven would have written many things differ- 
 ently and others not at all if he had not become 
 deaf! 
 
 Not in the slightest degree. That which 
 ive call his third period was the period of his 
 deafness and what would music be without this 
 third period I The last Pianoforte Sonatas, the 
 last String Quartettes, the Ninth Symphony and 
 others were possible only because of his deafness.
 
 43 
 
 This absolute concentration, this being trans- 
 ported into another world, this tone-full soul, this 
 lament never heard before, this bound Prome- 
 theus, this soaring above everything earthly, this 
 tragic not even approximately present in any 
 other opera ; all that could only find means to ex- 
 press itself because of his deafness. He had indeed 
 written the most beautiful, yes unrivalled works 
 before his deafness; for example, what is the 
 u Hollen-scene " of Gluck's "Orpheus" in compari- 
 son with the second movement of his G-major 
 Piano Concerto ? What any Tragedy (Hamlet 
 and King Lear possibly excepted) in comparison 
 with the second movement of his D-rnajor Trio ? 
 What is the whole Drama in comparison with 
 the " Coriolanus Overture " ? 
 
 But yet the most exalted, the most wondrous, 
 the most inconceivable, was not written until after 
 his deafness. As the seer may be imagined blind 
 that is, blind to all his surroundings, and seeing 
 with the eyes of the soul, so the hearer may be 
 imagined deaf, deaf to all his surroundings and
 
 44 
 
 hearing with the hearing of the soul. O deafness 
 of Beethoven, what unspeakable sorrow for him- 
 self, and what unspeakable joy for art and for 
 humanity ! 
 
 You did right to warn me of your paradoxes. 
 If only as much truth as is contained in every 
 paradox is to be found in this opinion of mine I 
 am happy to have felt so. 
 
 So then Beethoven has expressed the Alpha 
 and Omega in music ? 
 
 Not quite. He has taken us with him in 
 his flight to the stars, but from below a song is 
 resounding: "O come hither, the earth too is so 
 beautiful ! " This song Schubert sings to us. 
 
 You are contradicting yourself there, he was 
 vocal composer par excellence ! 
 
 Not in the pretentious sense of the opera 
 (in which he achieved but little), but in the sense 
 of the song, the one and only legitimate vocal 
 music besides church music and in addition he 
 has written so much and such wondrous instru- 
 mental music i I regard Beethoven's second
 
 45 
 
 epoch as the point of culmination in the art of 
 music, and Schubert as the father of the third 
 epoch. Yes, this Schubert is a remarkable pres- 
 ence in music ! While in the case of all others 
 (even the greatest) we find a preparatory fore- 
 runner, he appears as developed of himself (or 
 even if he had predecessors they are entirely 
 unknown to us), and that too in vocal as in 
 instrumental music. He creates a new lyric, 
 the lyric-romantic in music, before him the song 
 was either the naive Couplet or the Ballade, stiff, 
 dry, with recitatives, with shallow cantilena, 
 scholastic form, meaningless accompaniment, etc. 
 He creates the emotional song, which comes 
 from the heart and penetrates to the heart gives 
 the musical poem to the poetic one; the melody 
 that declares the words ; he creates a form of art 
 in which very much that is beautiful has been 
 done after him, but in which he still stands un- 
 rivalled. What can rival the " Winterreise," 
 the "Schwanengesang," the u Miillerlieder," and 
 so many others? Besides these he created the
 
 46 
 
 little piano-pieces and there he is too most inex- 
 plicable ! Living at the same time and in the 
 same city with Beethoven and so entirely unin- 
 fluenced in his musical creation in his symphony 
 as well as his chamber music; and also in his 
 piano music. Compare Beethoven's u Bagatel- 
 len" alone with Schubert's "Moments musicals," 
 or with his "Impromptus." Yes, he stands alone 
 in his song, as in his little piano-pieces, in his 
 "Rhapsody Hongroise" for four hands, in his 
 Marches for four hands, his Waltzes and Fantasias, 
 in short, in all that he has created. In one form 
 alone he does not attain the highest altitude, that 
 is the Sonata, but (1st) Beethoven had really said 
 the last word in this form, and (2d) to the pro- 
 nounced lyric-romantic character of his creation 
 this epic form was not natural. 
 
 He is generally accused of want of form. 
 
 His peculiarity of inserting whole songs 
 (without words) into his larger works (heavenly 
 themes with earthly interludes and reproduction), 
 in extending them to great lengths (especially to
 
 47 
 
 be felt in his Pianoforte Sonatas with exception 
 of two or three) Schumann has so rightly called 
 " heavenly lengths" 
 
 Can he and Beethoven really have been so 
 estranged ? 
 
 They were acquainted, but there was no 
 mutual esteem ; the latter is known only of 
 Schubert. Beethoven was either entirely locked 
 up within himself (toward musicians often rude 
 and forbidding, besides being hard of access on 
 account of his deafness), or moved in the highest 
 circles of society (the Arch-Duke Rudolf was his 
 pupil, friend and patron). Schubert was a genuine 
 Viennese-child-of-the-people. The Folks'-gar- 
 den, the street, the cafe, the gipsies, his world; 
 the Vienna dialect (as with Hayden and Mozart) 
 his language. His songs were seldom sung in 
 public, mostly only in the circle of his friends ; 
 the same in regard to his instrumental music, and 
 his C-major Symphony he himself never heard ! 
 So these two geniuses lived at the same time 
 and in the same city, and remained almost
 
 48 
 
 unknown to each other. A sad evidence that 
 music even at that time was not the common 
 property of the public (opera excepted), but only 
 a pastime for certain circles ! 
 
 He died young? 
 
 And did not gain recognition, even in his 
 songs, until some time after his death. Bach has 
 only been rescued from obscurity since the year 
 1830, and Beethoven's third period was for the 
 greater half of our century designated, even 
 by musicians, as a sickly, yet crazed period. 
 
 Schubert's enormous creation in so short a 
 life is incomprehensible to me. 
 
 "He sang as the birds sing" always and 
 without ceasing, from a full heart, a full throat, 
 gave himself as he was, and polished his works but 
 slightly. 
 
 That you do not intend to reckon as a merit? 
 
 God created woman 5 certainly the most 
 beautiful of his creations, but full of faults. He 
 did not polish them away, being convinced that 
 all that was faulty in her would be out-weighed
 
 49 
 
 by her charms so Schubert in his compositions; 
 his melody out-weighs all deficiency, if deficiency 
 there be. One of his most sympathetic attributes 
 is his naturalness how harmlessly by the side of 
 the highest and most beautiful he exhibits the 
 " Kreuzfidelen Lerchenfelder Wiener" in the last 
 movement of the C-major String Quintette, in the 
 last movement of the D-major Pianoforte Sonata, 
 in the last movement of the G-major Fantasia, 
 and so forth, and withal the manifoldness and 
 versatility of his creation. And then his songs, 
 "Die Krahe" "Der Doppelganger" "Du bist die 
 Euh," "Dcr Atlas," "Aufenthalt," "Der Erl- 
 konig" his Walzes then his String Quartettes in 
 A- and D-minor, his Hungarian Rhapsody then 
 his " Moments musicals" the Symphony in C- 
 major no again, and a thousand times over 
 and over, Bach, Beethoven and Schubert occupy 
 the highest pinnacles in music! 
 
 As yet you have not explained to me how 
 Chopin and Glinka hold the right to be classed 
 with these.
 
 50 
 
 Vienna has sung its song. Music seeks its 
 previous home, North Germany. 
 
 You mean German music, as Mehul, Gretry, 
 Cherubini, Spontini, Rossini and others, did not 
 live in Germany. 
 
 They are composers of vocal music exclu- 
 sively, hence for me, not standard bearers of the 
 art of music. 
 
 Who then in your opinion is the continuation 
 of the chain 1 
 
 Weber. 
 
 Would you, if he had not written his operas, 
 regard him too as a standard-bearer of the art I 
 
 Not in the full significance of the word; I 
 could not however pass .him by as his pianoforte 
 compositions, much that is new in his treatment 
 of the orchestra, and especially his overtures, 
 stamp him as such. Still, you are quite right in 
 regarding his operas as his greatest works. It is 
 remarkable how decidedly he has become a type 
 in all the styles in which he created. Every- 
 thing that he did has been imitated the Folk-
 
 51 
 
 tone (Freischiitz), the Romantic-fantastic (Obe- 
 ron), the Lyric-romantic (Euryanthe), his Arias, 
 his Hunting Choruses, his Overtures and his 
 Pianoforte compositions (Concertstiicke, etc.). 
 Concerning his Pianoforte Sonatas, although they 
 do not by any means attain the height of inven- 
 tion, the depth of conception, the earnest emotion, 
 the artistic standard of the Beethoven Sonatas, 
 still in their art they are highly valuable com- 
 positions. For the pianoforte he is, as it were, 
 Virtuoso-Composer. 
 
 What do you mean by that I 
 
 Compositions, in which the "passage" ap- 
 pears as personage where brilliancy and effect 
 occupy the foreground even at the expense of the 
 musical contents however, when we remember 
 to what shallowness this style was brought after 
 him, we can look upon his work with respect. 
 
 Do you care so little for opera in general 
 that you do not consider it worth while to mention 
 its progress side by side with the progress of 
 instrumental music ?
 
 52 
 
 If I wished to illustrate to you only my own 
 sympathies as regards the progress of our art, I 
 should be obliged now to pass over at once to 
 Mendelssohn. You demand my opinion of every- 
 thing, however, and so we will first explore two 
 fields, which have been prodigiously cultivated, 
 and which more than everything mentioned here- 
 tofore have entertained and delighted the public, 
 these are : the Opera, in vocal music, Virtuosity, 
 in instrumental music. 
 
 With the Opera you will probably begin in 
 Italy? 
 
 Both have their beginning there, there the 
 Opera (buffa and seria) bloomed and flourished, 
 developing very quickly and to a high degree, 
 and in such a manner, that, with the exception 
 of France, where with Lulli it appears at once in 
 the French language, it was adopted in the 
 Italian language, over the whole world and 
 through the half of the present century. 
 
 The reason for this is probably that the 
 Italian climate and language have helped to give
 
 53 
 
 us the best singers. To this circumstance Italy, 
 however, is also indebted for the ever increasing 
 decline in the art of creation among its composers. 
 They were obliged to write beautiful Cantilenas, 
 grand coloratur-arias, whether allowable by the 
 subject of the drama or not, in order to give the 
 singer opportunity to show his skill and hence 
 they were obliged to give the orchestra only an in- 
 significant accompanying role. For these reasons, 
 to the earnest musician, Italian Opera is to-day 
 synonymous with insignificant and inartistic. 
 From an aesthetic standpoint this is altogether 
 justifiable, from a purely musical standpoint, not 
 entirely so, for a beautiful Cantilena is after all, 
 to be prized, and there are many to be found in 
 Italian Opera. Italian Opera in its prime, is the 
 period before Mozart, the number of its composers 
 is legion, and they rank as classic there in this 
 style. Of the Mozart and after-Mozart periods 
 the most important are: Salieri, Cimarosa, Paesi- 
 ello, Pae'r, and later Kossini his u Barbier von 
 Se villa" in freshness, melody, humor, character-
 
 54 
 
 istic, truly a master work his "Comte D'Ory" 
 also his "William Tell/' very remarkable in color 
 and drama as well as in orchestral treatment, 
 notably in the overture which might be called a 
 work of art if he had substituted something more 
 appropriate for the last allegro! In his other 
 operas also we find the trivial and inartistic side 
 by side with much that is excellent. It is a not 
 uninteresting fact that he, as well as the Italian 
 composers before and after him, preserved a more 
 noble tone, and gave the orchestra a more inter- 
 esting treatment in the operas they wrote for 
 the French Stage, in the French language, than 
 in the operas written for Italy in the Italian 
 language. Rossini ruled the entire European 
 public for a long time until the appearance of 
 Bellini and shortly after that of Donizetti, who, the 
 first by his sweet melody, the second by his 
 temperament and in some measure modern drama- 
 tic tendency, crowded his works, with the exception 
 of two or three operas, from the repertoire. The 
 public and the artists revelled in these two com-
 
 55 
 
 posers, and the French Grand Opera (Meyerbeer) 
 was their only rival and when one, as I, has 
 heard these Operas sung by Rubini, Tamburini, 
 Lablache, by Sontag, Grisi, Persiani, Tadolini, and 
 Jenny Lind, he cannot help revelling in them, 
 which I consequently did in my youth, and 
 thoroughly. 
 
 And has Italy done nothing in instrumental 
 music ? 
 
 We have already spoken of Corelli and D. 
 Scarlatti, after these nothing worthy of mention 
 was created. dementi, of great significance in 
 virtuosity and in a pedagogic sense; but of him 
 later. After these, Boccherini alone remains to 
 be noticed, who has written much chamber music 
 (Quintettes for stringed instruments), but which 
 in no way approaches that of Haydn. Of the 
 most importance is that which was done for and 
 on the violin ; after Corelli Nardini, Tartini, 
 Viotti, and especially Paganini made this instru- 
 ment the most important musically after the 
 Piano.
 
 56 
 
 France comes now on the list, since in Italy, 
 France and Germany only, the art of music has 
 made a progress worthy of mention, while in the 
 other countries its progress has been of little or no 
 importance. 
 
 Until 1830 indeed; but from that time on 
 lights of various magnitude arise in every corner 
 and end of Europe ; music becomes more and more 
 a universal possession, and almost every country 
 has more or less renowned representatives of this 
 art. 
 
 Schools, however, developed only in these 
 three countries? 
 
 From Rameau until Berlioz, with few excep- 
 tions, it was the Opera, solely and alone, that 
 was cultivated in France. The French culti- 
 vated almost exclusively the genre of Comic 
 Opera, that is, opera with dialogue. Foreigners 
 mostly who, however, are regarded by the 
 French as representatives of the French school 
 (of course only those who have written in the 
 French language) cultivated the so-called Grand
 
 57 
 
 Opera, that is, opera with recitative. They call 
 Lulli, Cherubini, Spontini, Rossini (Italians), 
 Gluck, Herold, Meyerbeer (Germans) " Chefs de 
 Tecole Franqaise" The English also call Handel 
 an English composer, because he wrote his 
 Oratorios in the English language. I cannot say 
 that this kind of patriotism displeases me. 
 
 There is at least more pride in that than in 
 disowning one born and bred in a country and 
 avowing its religion, because his name is a 
 foreign one. The " Opera Comique" is, properly 
 speaking, the type of French music and in it 
 they have created most charmingly Gretry, 
 Mehul, Monsigny, Dalayrac, Isouard, Berton, 
 Boieldieu, Adam, Auber, Grisar, Masse, Bizet, 
 Delibes, and others, deserve not only the respect of 
 their nation, but the respect of all nations. Many 
 of these have also written serious Operas Mehul 
 (whose " Joseph in Egypt" is the equal of the 
 best in this style), Auber, "Die Stumme von 
 Portici" and others, but still the character of 
 their creations in general remains the Opera
 
 58 
 
 Comique. It is worthy of mention that with 
 them the treatment of the orchestia is much 
 more interesting than with the Italian composers. 
 Lively rhythm, ingenious, piquant ; refinement, 
 often excellence, stamp the French in music so 
 decidedly that they, even in their symphonic 
 creation of to-day, are the principal mark of dis- 
 tinction. What they now-a-days have completely 
 lost is the graceful, simple, charming " Chanson" 
 and that is a pity! They have become u phra- 
 seurs" in music (in the Comic Opera also). And 
 indeed the other nations are not far behind them 
 in this, it seems to be the general evil of our 
 time! 
 
 Since the time of the Second Empire, the 
 "Opera Comique," this charming, witty, merry, 
 interesting genre, has been thrown into the shade 
 by the "Operetta," in which the charming has 
 become frivolous; the witty, silly; the merry, 
 vulgar; a sort of Comic- Journal set to music a la 
 11 Journal pour rire." The (by-the-way) talented 
 inventor of this genre was Offenbach he had
 
 59 
 
 many imitators (Herve, Lecocq, Audran, and 
 others) for anything of that kind has disciples ! 
 This style seems lately to be losing ground in 
 France, and Germany intends evidently to elevate 
 it again to the comic opera in the earlier form. 
 The serious (Grand) Opera was, as already men- 
 tioned, mostly in the hands of foreign composers, 
 who, however, were obliged to conform to the 
 demands of the French public compose in the 
 French language, directing their attention chiefly 
 to declamation the latter especially gave the 
 typical character to the French Grand Opera. 
 Lulli, and later Gluck, striving to stem the 
 inbreaking Italianism, had constructed a whole 
 system in this direction Cherubini and Spon- 
 tini also (this musical echo of the Napoleon 
 Militarismas) remained true to it. Later on the 
 public demanded in the Grand Opera, besides 
 this, an interesting, almost symphonic orchestra, 
 interesting treatment of the subject (especially in 
 Avealth of situation) unqualified addition of the 
 ballet and a grand setting (the Grand Opera
 
 60 
 
 would not allow of less than five acts). Meyer- 
 beer more than any other composer fulfilled these 
 demands, and has thus become the type of the 
 French Grand Opera. This composer is over- 
 valued in France and in Germany under-valued 
 by earnest critics. He has indeed many sins on hi& 
 artist conscience: sickly vanity, longing for im- 
 mediate success, want of strict self-criticism, pan- 
 dering to the bad taste of an unmusical public, gloss^ 
 in musical characteristic but he has two very 
 great qualities : Theatre-blood, highly distin- 
 guished orchestral treatment, a highly artistic 
 handling of the massive, powerful dramatic situa- 
 tion, virtuosi technic, etc. Many musicians who 
 abuse him would no doubt be very glad if they 
 were able to imitate him. "Robert der Teufel," 
 "Der Prophet," and especially u Die Hugenotten," 
 are at any rate opera compositions of first rank ! 
 Next to him, it is Halevy who is counted the 
 most important in France, and his li Jiidin" is a 
 work very well worthy of note. From here on 
 (with the exception of Rossini, Donizetti, and
 
 61 
 
 Verdi, whose several operas were given there), 
 the Grand Opera passes entirely into the posses- 
 sion of French composers: Thomas, Gounod, 
 Saint-Saens, Massenet, Reyer, and others. 
 
 And the instrumental music? 
 
 Begins with Berlioz, and is only developing 
 itself earnestly at the present day. 
 
 So now we must turn with the opera question 
 to Germany f 
 
 The beginnings of opera in the German 
 language, in the first part of the XVIII. century, 
 in Hamburg, have only a historical, yes, almost 
 a mere archaeological interest. There too it is 
 the comic opera alone which figures in its national 
 language, the serious opera in the whole of Ger- 
 many was presented in the Italian language. 
 The German serious Opera is, with few excep- 
 tions (Kayser, Fuchs, Mattheson, Hasse, Hiller), 
 a child of the /fer-Mozart time, and flourished 
 for some time as Vaudeville, Minstrelsy (Sing- 
 spiel), that is, with spoken dialogue. We touch 
 upon a circumstance here that to me is always a
 
 62 
 
 tender spot in our art. If the Opera is able to 
 be, in any case, a possible form of art, it -could 
 be so only in case we voluntarily accept a con- 
 ventional falsehood to speak what is sung if, 
 however, it be sung, then spoken, then sung 
 again, then spoken again, how is an illusion con- 
 ceivable ? Even in a French Vaudeville (when, 
 after a witty dialogue or interesting scene) the 
 (incidental) ''Bon jour, Madame, comment vous 
 portez vous" is given in a singing voice, it is to 
 me unbearable ; but in an earnest, dramatic, lyric 
 or fantastic piece (Opera!) the melo-dramatic in 
 a French scene of terror, or in a poisoning scene 
 or a midnight raid, etc., where the violins, con 
 sordini, begin the tremolo is to me more accepta- 
 ble and when I remember that Mozart wrote 
 his "Magic Flute," Beethoven his "Fidelio," 
 Weber his "Freischiitz," with a spoken dialogue 
 it makes me entirely unhappy ! 
 
 Are you disturbed by the mixture of poetry 
 and prose in Shakespeare's plays also? 
 
 There it is different persons who speak
 
 63 
 
 differently the unimportant persons speak in 
 prose the important in poetry but in the Opera, 
 the person who has just sung begins to speak, or 
 one who has been speaking begins to sing. O 
 ruling taste, a frightful thing in art! 
 
 I did not know that in Italy Operas with 
 spoken dialogue existed. 
 
 For the Comic Opera the Italians invented 
 the "Recitative secco" a very proper art of speak- 
 ing musically in the serious Opera they sing 
 throughout. 
 
 In this then, they take precedence of other 
 nations in music? 
 
 Perhaps, however, in this regard only. 
 
 Yet Gluck, Mozart, and the German Opera 
 in general, developed under the influence of the 
 Italians ? 
 
 In the case of Gluck and Mozart it was only 
 an outward influence, necessitated above all by 
 the language and by the prevailing forms in 
 musical works ; but neither on their melody, 
 their musical expression, nor on the progression
 
 64 
 
 of their ideas is there an influence apparent. 
 Gluck is neither an Italian nor a French mu- 
 sician, although he wrote his operas in these two 
 languages; nor is Mozart an Italian musician, 
 even though he wrote the most of his operas in 
 that language. Gluck wrote Gluck-music and 
 Mozart wrote Mozart-music, and the German 
 calls them both his own, because he feels the 
 German-musician in them, although they wrote 
 in a foreign language. 
 
 Are you in favor of, or opposed to, national 
 creation in music? 
 
 The nationality of that land in which a com- 
 poser is born and bred will, in my opinion, 
 always be recognized in his creation; he may 
 live in another land and write in another lan- 
 guage, as evidence, Handel, Gluck, Mozart and 
 others ; there is, however, a reflected national 
 creation (very much in vogue in our day), and 
 although it may be very interesting, it cannot 
 in my estimation command the sympathy of the 
 united world, and awakens an ethnographical
 
 65 
 
 interest at most. For example: A melody that 
 would charm tears from a Finnlander would fall 
 quite coldly upon a Spaniard ; a dance rhythm 
 that would compel a Hungarian to hop and 
 spring, would not disturb the repose of an Italian, 
 and so on. It is true that the dance rhythm of 
 one nation may be so grafted upon that of another 
 that it finally accustoms itself to it, yes, even 
 enjoys it (as for instance the waltz has become 
 universal) ; but two nations can never be of com- 
 plete unity of feeling, nor of the same enthusiasm 
 in their melody and dances. The composers of 
 the reflective-national style must rest satisfied 
 with the acknowledgement (often adoration) of 
 their own country, which is not to be under- 
 valued, as it probably has also its high worth and 
 great satisfaction. 
 
 You have omitted to give me the names of 
 the German Opera composers? 
 
 The nomenclature is an exceedingly volu- 
 minous one in the Comic Opera from Ditters- 
 dorf, Schenk, Muller to Lortzing, Flotow, Grdtze,
 
 66 
 
 and many others ; in the lyric and dramatic from 
 Winter, Weigl, Kreutzer to Wagner, Goldmark, 
 Kretschmar, Nessler, and many others; in the 
 Operetta from Strauss, Suppe, Millocker to those 
 growing up daily in our midst. The most im- 
 portant of these are already known to you, the 
 others increase the number without advancing 
 the art. 
 
 You spoke of a field of virtuosity that 
 should be explored? 
 
 Yes, the second field, which, next to the 
 Opera, entirely rules the public ; but before we 
 turn to this we must once more clearly review the 
 after-Beethoven period in instrumental music. 
 
 Is this really worthy of mention before the 
 time of Schumann ? 
 
 Only a very few composers in Germany 
 devoted themselves to vocal composition exclu- 
 sively, the most of them cultivated almost every 
 style as Weber, who besides being an opera and 
 song composer was a pianoforte composer. Spohr, 
 the head of the German school of the violin,
 
 67 
 
 was a composer in all styles of music and dis- 
 tinguished in all, but in all too, exhibiting man- 
 nerism to monotony, hence probably not enduring 
 although works such as his Opera " Jessonda," 
 his Symphony "Die Weihe der Tone" in C-minor, 
 several Chamber Music pieces, and especially his 
 Violin Concertos, assure him at all events an 
 honorable place in the literature of music. 
 Marschner, the most important German Opera 
 composer between Weber and Wagner, has writ- 
 ten, besides, a large amount of Chamber-Music ; 
 Lachner, Reissiger, and others, likewise. 
 
 And Mendelssohn ! 
 
 To give to his appearance the value that 
 it deserves, we must not leave unmentioned a 
 period of time, that brought us much that was 
 indeed worthy of mention in vocal music, a period 
 that is known as the time of the " Capellmeister- 
 music." 
 
 What is the meaning of this term f 
 
 It has reference to those composers who 
 wrote according to every rule of the art, and
 
 68 
 
 after given models, but who were destitute of all 
 creative impulse, and of the creative vein. 
 
 And who were these functionaries of the 
 art? 
 
 All those who lived in the said time. I 
 speak of instrumental music, and thus even the 
 names of Marschner, Lachner, Reissiger, Lind- 
 painter, Fesca, Kalliwoda, and many others must 
 be enumerated. 
 
 Did you not previously mention Marschner 
 among the great ones? 
 
 His Operas, "Vampyr," " Tempi er und 
 Juclin," especially "Hans Heiling," give him a 
 place of honor among composers 5 but in his 
 Pianoforte Trios, and other instrumental com- 
 positions, even in the overtures to his Operas, he 
 belongs to the above category. Lachner we must 
 not omit to mention, for, influenced in technique 
 by the modern spirit, he made himself conspicuous 
 in his last days by his Orchestra Suites ; giving 
 evidence of his old, masterly technic, and his 
 rejuvenated power in invention. Now bring this
 
 69 
 
 time home very clearly to your mind: in the 
 Opera, Epigonenthum ; in Oratorio and Church 
 style, dry barrenness and pedantry, and in the 
 Symphony and Chamber style, Kapellmeister 
 music; in compositions for solo instruments the 
 most shallow opera-fantasia and variation-scrib- 
 bling ; can you estimate how beneficial to the 
 art of music the appearance of Mendelssohn must 
 have been? 
 
 How comes it then that he is slighted at this 
 day, and even by musicians? 
 
 One principal reason for that is the very 
 great esteem he enjoyed during his lifetime, after 
 which a reaction must necessarily come; and 
 then it is not to be denied that, in comparison 
 with the other great ones of art, he was wanting 
 in depth, earnestness and greatness ; but that was 
 compensated for by so many other qualities, that, 
 I am convinced, art-lovers will certainly return to 
 him with love and reverence, and still greatly 
 delight in him. 
 
 His chief work was instrumental music?
 
 70 
 
 All branches of art, except the Opera, had 
 in him one of the noblest representatives his 
 creations were master-works in completeness of 
 form, technic and beauty of tone, and furthermore, 
 he was a manifold creator. His "Midsummer 
 Night's Dream" is a musical revelation! New 
 and genial in invention, in orchestral coloring, in 
 humor, in lyric, in romantic his type seems the 
 fairy-like. His "Songs without words" are a 
 genuine treasure of lyric and pianoforte-tone- 
 perfection; his "six Preludes and Fugues for 
 Pianoforte" a splendid work of modern-mode in 
 this old form, and especially the first (E-minor) ; 
 his violin-concerto is a unicum of beauty, fresh- 
 ness, grateful technic and noble virtuosity; and 
 his overture to "FingaTs Cave" a pearl of musical 
 literature. These are, in my opinion, his most 
 genial compositions, but his Oratorios, Psalms, 
 Symphonies, Chamber-music, Songs, etc., are also 
 works which place him among the heroes of the 
 art. In general I would designate his creations 
 as the swan-song of the classic.
 
 71 
 
 His music has never deeply moved me. 
 
 " Who ne'er his bread in sorrow ate." 
 
 "Who ne'er the sorrow-laden nights/' etc. 
 Mendelssohn and also Meyerbeer were the chil- 
 dren of wealthy parents, and enjoyed the most 
 refined training and education ; in their homes, 
 surrounded by an intellectually select society, 
 they pursued Art, not as a means of subsistence, 
 but followed it as an impulse of the mind; and 
 learned life's bitterness at most in an unsatis- 
 fied ambition or injured vanity at the beginning 
 of their musical careers; knew neither the cares 
 of livelihood nor position and all this is heard in 
 their creations there are no tears, no agonies of 
 the soul, no bitterness, and almost no complaint. 
 
 And yet Mendelssohn stands so high in your 
 opinion ? 
 
 Yes, because he created the most beautiful 
 works and the highest in abundance, and because 
 he rescued instrumental music from ruin. 
 
 And his contemporary, Schumann ? 
 
 The new spirit (Romanticism) that had been
 
 72 
 
 hovering in the literature of all lands from 25 to 
 50 of our century, found in Schumann its musical 
 echo ; even the war against the formal, the scho- 
 lastic, the pseudo-classic had in him its musical 
 champion he warred against the Philistines, 
 against Capellmeister-music, against " cue "- 
 critique, against the perverted taste of the public, 
 and thus found in the beginning of his artistic 
 activity the material for extraordinarily interest- 
 ing and musically-new creations, especially for the 
 Pianoforte. 
 
 He was undoubtedly more tender, warmer, 
 more soulful, more romantic, richer in fantasy, and 
 more subjective than Mendelssohn. To me he is 
 most sympathetic in his pianoforte compositions: 
 his Kreisleriana, Phantasiestiicke, Etudes Sym- 
 phoniques, Carneval, Fantasia in C-major, and 
 many others are pearls in the literature of the 
 pianoforte, and his Pianoforte Concerto in A-minor 
 is just such a unicum in pianoforte literature as the 
 Mendelssohn Violin Concerto in the literature of 
 the Violin ; after these come his songs. I rank
 
 73 
 
 his orchestral works, and his larger vocal compo- 
 sitions as third in the list. 
 
 New Pianoforte forms (not always grateful, 
 but always interesting), new rhythms, rich and 
 new harmonies, new forms, combined with the 
 most beautiful invention and wonderfully charm- 
 ing melody; all this stamps him as one of the 
 highest we possess in music. 
 
 And absolutely without fault? 
 
 That I do not say. Some rhythmic monot- 
 ony, harmonic overloading, predilection for the 
 song-form in his pianoforte works, often causing 
 us to miss in them the great flight, the great 
 outline frequent faulty instrumentation in his 
 orchestral and chamber-music (the doubling of 
 the voices), and often mere contrapuntal treat- 
 ment of the singing-voices in his larger vocal 
 compositions are perhaps mere shadow sides of 
 his creation, but all these vanish in presence of 
 the wonderful beauty of his thoughts. 
 
 How does the Schumann song compare with 
 the Schubert?
 
 74 
 
 It is difficult to make the comparison. To 
 me Schubert's songs are more sympathetic, be- 
 cause more original, tender, simple; on the 
 other hand, Schumann's are often finer, more 
 poetic at all events the song literature of Schu- 
 bert, Schumann, Mendelssohn (since their time 
 too, very much that is beautiful has been created 
 in this branch) is a golden circlet in the crown of 
 German lyric. 
 
 Who comes now on the list? 
 
 He, whose association with my chosen ones 
 caused you so much astonishment. 
 
 Chopin? Now you arouse my curiosity. 
 
 You wih 1 perhaps have noticed that all the 
 greatest of those of whom we have spoken until 
 now, have intrusted their most intimate, yes, I 
 may almost say, most beautiful thoughts to the 
 Pianoforte but the Pianoforte--Z?an7, the Piano- 
 forte-Rhapsodist, the Pianoforte-Jfwc7, the Piano- 
 forte-Soul is C}wpin. Whether the spirit of this 
 instrument breathed upon him or he upon it, 
 how he wrote for it, I do not know; but only an
 
 75 
 
 entire going-over-of-one-into-the-other could call 
 such compositions to life. Tragic, romantic, lyric, 
 heroic, dramatic, fantastic, soulful, sweet, dreamy, 
 brilliant, grand, simple; all possible expressions 
 are found in his compositions, and are all sung by 
 him upon this instrument. 
 
 You are becoming extravagant! 
 Would you like to know the names of the 
 compositions that justify it? His Preludes (to ine 
 the pearls of his works), the greater half of his 
 Etudes, his Nocturnes ; his Polonaises, E-flat- 
 minor, C-sharp-minor, F-sharp-minor, A-flat- 
 major, especially the A-major and C-minor, which 
 always seem to me a picture (the A-major) of 
 Poland's greatness and (the C-minor) of Poland's 
 downfall ; his four Ballades, his Scherzos, B-minor 
 and B-flat minor; his Sonatas, B-flat minor and 
 B-minor, the first of which is a whole drama, 
 with its last movement (after the very typical 
 Funeral March), which I would name: "Night 
 winds sweeping over Hie church-yard graves" and 
 added to all of these, "last, but not least," his
 
 76 
 
 Mazurkas! His Polonaises and Mazurkas ex- 
 cepted, he has written no Polish-reflective music, 
 but in all of his compositions we hear him relate 
 rejoicingly Poland's vanished greatness, singing, 
 mourning, weeping over Poland's later downfall, 
 and that all in the most beautiful, the most musical 
 way. From a purely musical standpoint, how 
 beautiful in invention, how perfect in technic and 
 form, how interesting and new in harmony, and 
 often how great ! Withal it is not to be forgotten 
 that he too (one of the very few) developed out of 
 himself, with the exception of a few first efforts 
 where the Hummel influence is felt in the predilec- 
 tion for passages; nor should we overlook the highly 
 interesting fact that he is the only one of the com- 
 posers who, conscious of his specialty, creates for 
 this specialty (the Pianoforte) and (with the excep- 
 tion of a few songs) attempts no other style of com- 
 position. He was indeed the soul of the Pianoforte! 
 To me too he is very sympathetic, but I 
 should still not have thought that he could be the 
 object of such deification.
 
 77 
 
 Moreover he is to me as an exhalation of the 
 third epoch in our art. 
 
 May I ask you to explain your division of 
 time into epochs a little more clearly to me ? I 
 do not understand it fully. 
 
 I am not delivering to you a discourse on the 
 History of Music, we are merely talking over the 
 progress of music in general, and of its most 
 important representatives. As you already know, 
 I regard Palestrina as the beginning of music as an 
 art, and reckon from him on as the first epoch of 
 our art, which I call the Organ- and Vocal-epoch 
 and as the greatest representatives of this epoch 
 and its point of culmination I recognize Bach and 
 Handel. The second epoch, which I call the 
 Instrumental-epoch, that is, the development of 
 the Pianoforte and of the Orchestra, I reckon 
 from Ph. Em. Bach on, with Haydn and Mozart 
 to Beethoven inclusive; recognizing these as the 
 greatest representatives and the point of culmina- 
 tion of this epoch. The third epoch, the lyric- 
 romantic, I reckon from Schubert on, with
 
 78 
 
 Weber, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Chopin, 
 whom I recognize as its last representatives. 
 Everything else in regard to this question you 
 will find in the history of music. 
 
 I will try to follow you in your views. 
 
 Now comes the second name, that caused 
 you so much astonishment that is, Glinka. We 
 have spoken before of the striving for the national 
 in music, my opinion of which you already know, 
 but Glinka is so distinguished in this endeavor 
 that he stands high above all others who have 
 made like attempts. Schiller says: "The gods 
 never come singly" and that is noticable also in 
 our art ; with every manifestation of art whole 
 groups arise, as also in the endeavor for national 
 creation in music. We will review these attempts 
 in the different countries : Erkel in Hungary, 
 Smetana in Bohemia, the majority of the com- 
 posers in Sweden and Norway earlier Balfe and 
 now the majority of English composers, and so 
 on ; from all of these we hear the all-tlie-world- 
 music in the Romanza, or the Chorus or a
 
 79 
 
 Dance of national character with Glinka this is- 
 not the case; from the first note to the last in 
 the overture, as well as in the vocal part of his 
 Operas (Recitative, Aria, Ensemble), all is of 
 national character; melody, harmony, yes, even 
 the treatment of the orchestra. He has usually 
 the combination of two nationalities in his operas; 
 in his "Lebenf&r den Zar" Russian and Polish; 
 in his " Russian und Ludmilla" the Russian and 
 Circassian. The character of both nationalities 
 is heard throughout, at the same time united 
 with the most perfect mastery and technic. 
 
 Did he not write after the Italian model, 
 introducing Arias, Ensembles, etc. ? 
 
 He has retained that form, living under the 
 influence of the Italian Opera which ruled exclu- 
 sively in Russia until a short time ago, but his 
 melody and harmony, his invention and mood 
 always retain a specific national coloring. 
 
 So far as known to me, he was a composer 
 of vocal music exclusively ? 
 
 He has not written many instrumental works,.
 
 80 
 
 but among them a Capriccio on the folk-theme 
 u Kamarinskaja," which has become the type for 
 Russian instrumental music, and is really of great 
 geniality some very beautiful Entr act music to a 
 tragedy, "Furst Cholmsky" in which the Jewish 
 element appears in remarkable coloring, ex- 
 tremely interesting orchestral works on Spanish 
 Folk-songs and Dances, and a few things for 
 Pianoforte alone ; his chief branch is, however, 
 the Opera, and in spite of that he is to me one of 
 my five. 
 
 I cannot say that you have entirely con- 
 vinced me, with reference to your five chosen 
 ones, but in all that has reference to Bach, 
 Beethoven and Schubert I agree with you, and 
 can even comprehend too, that you as a pianist, 
 so revel in Chopin, and as a Russian, in Grlinka. 
 
 Before we enter upon the new era of com- 
 position, the era of to-day (the fourth epoch of 
 music as an art), we must explore the field of 
 Virtuosity divided into two epochs, the epoch 
 including the first half of our century, in which
 
 81 
 
 the Virtuoso brought out mostly his own com- 
 positions, and the succeeding epoch, in which he 
 appears chiefly as an executant artist of the com- 
 positions of others. For us the earlier epoch 
 only is of interest, as it alone could exercise an 
 influence on the progress of the art of music. 
 Of the wind instruments we can say but little, as 
 the Virtuoso on them could have influence only in 
 a, technical sense, and as regards the construction 
 of the instrument and its use in the orchestra. 
 
 This literature has always been a cheerless 
 one with the exception of some few compositions 
 written for them by the great composers (Handel, 
 Weber). Of the Violin until Paganini and Spohr 
 we have already spoken, if we add the names : 
 Rode, Kreutzer, Molique, Lipinsky, Beriot, 
 Vieuxtemps, David, Ernst, Wieniawski, whose 
 compositions are of great importance for the 
 instrument, although not for the art in general 5 
 for the latter, however, all that such masters as 
 Bach, Beethoven and Mendelssohn have written 
 for this instrument is of the greatest importance,
 
 82 
 
 and we may now leave this instrument. The 
 literature for Violoncello, whose earlier repre- 
 sentatives were Komberg, Dupont and others, 
 later Servais, Davidoff, Popper and others, is 
 still less significant than that of the violin and 
 for the art in general. As regards technic, the 
 great significance of Paganini for the violin, 
 Servais for the Violoncello, and their indirect 
 influence in this manner on the art in general 
 must not remain unnoticed. Of the influence of 
 the Song- Virtuoso on the composers (in no case 
 beneficial) we have also spoken before, and now 
 we come to the instrument that occupies the 
 principal place, as regards the art, namely, the 
 Pianoforte. On account of its compass, only- 
 inferior to that of the Organ (it still has pre- 
 cedence of the latter, however, in the shading 
 of tone : piano and forte) it must of course be 
 the instrument most attractive to the musician ; 
 in addition to the advantage of having this com- 
 pass entirely at his command, he enjoys the 
 power (so dear to the musician) of individual
 
 83 
 
 rendering (for in any other interpretation he is 
 dependent not alone upon himself, but upon 
 numerous conditions) j therefore the Pianoforte as 
 the instrument of music has become, so to say, the 
 photograph-apparatus of the musician, as the 
 dictionary is the musical Encyclopaedia of the 
 public. Every great composer was at the same 
 time a Pianoforte Virtuoso; of those we have 
 already spoken, now we must speak of the great 
 Pianoforte Virtuosi, who at the same time were 
 composers. We must begin with dementi, whom 
 we may call the father or the teacher of modern 
 pianoforte virtuosity. Who the teachers of Scar- 
 latti, Couperin, Rameau, Bach, Handel, Haydn, 
 Mozart, and even Beethoven, were, we do not 
 know and can only wonder how they acquired 
 such technic (virtuosity), especially Scarlatti, 
 Bach, and Beethoven, whose technic for us, still, 
 to-day, is a hard nut to crack. Clementi is the 
 first representative of the Pianoforte pedagogy 
 and his "Gradus ad Parnassum," even to the 
 present day, the surest guide to virtuosity. His
 
 84 
 
 Sonatas (a few among them are not without 
 artistic value) are of the type of that scholastic 
 period in which, under the cloak of classic-form, 
 the chief interest was the virtuoso technic. Not 
 the fa9ade ; but the rear portal of the temple of 
 art preserves such names as Dussek, Steibelt, 
 Hummel, Cramer, Moscheles, Czerny, Field, 
 Kalkbrenner, Herz, and many others, with whom 
 first the Sonata pines away in meaninglessness, 
 then the Pianoforte Concerto was cultivated 
 merely from a standpoint of the passage, and 
 Polaccas, Rondos brillants and a la Cosaque were 
 principal works, and sadly enough, the favorite 
 nourishment of the public. The variation was 
 the most horribly misused. This eldest of all 
 instrumental forms, which in Beethoven rises to 
 ethics, sinks to the emptiness of Herz,*) to unfold 
 again, however, with Mendelssohn, and especially 
 Schumann, into beautiful being the pedagogic- 
 
 *) Mendelssohn even felt himself moved to give his variations 
 the title "Variations se>ieuses" in order to distinguish them 
 from the " variations" in vogue at that day.
 
 85 
 
 etude being the only branch of the art which at 
 that time preserved a worthy position. 
 
 But the names you mentioned are mostly 
 contemporary with Beethoven, Schubert and 
 Weber T 
 
 They ruled the public entirely, however. 
 Soon after his death the Pianoforte-Beethoven 
 (except two or three Sonatas which had attained 
 some popularity) became solely the private cult 
 of a very few music-fanatics; the Pianoforte- 
 Schubert was entirely ignored ; the Pianoforte^ 
 Weber, it is true, remained the order of the day, 
 but only in a few of his works, and merely as a 
 more earnest expression of the then reigning 
 literature. But Hummel, Moscheles and Field 
 are personages who shine as meteors among the 
 others mentioned. Hummel, if he had not been 
 sicklied with the regulation- and the passage- 
 craze, might have been counted among the real 
 composers, for works like his Sonata in F sharp 
 minor, his four-hand Sonata in A flat-major, his 
 Fantasia in E flat-major, his Septette, his Con-
 
 86 
 
 certo in A-minor, and especially B-minor give 
 him entire right to a place in the " parterre des 
 rois " in the Temple of Art. Thus also Moscheles, 
 whose Concerto in G-minor will always remain a 
 beautiful work of music, and who, although stiffly 
 scholastic, is one of the first who brought us the 
 Fantasia (not variation) on opera themes, bring- 
 ing with it a singing and dramatic rendering in 
 pianoforte playing. Field creates, it is true, in 
 a small frame, but is of valuable influence in his 
 Nocturnes. 
 
 But now (again, simultaneously) Thalberg, 
 Liszt, and Henselt appear; three personages who 
 give the Pianoforte an entirely new character, 
 freeing it from the scale and passage style and 
 qualifying it for the canto with arpeggio accom- 
 paniment Thalberg, in the orchestral Liszt, in 
 the polyphonic and broader harmony style while 
 Henselt crowded out the variation on an opera 
 theme and introduced the Fantasia on several 
 opera themes not however with the Moscheles 
 simplicity, but with an until then unknown,
 
 87 
 
 virtuosity and a climax-effect allowing two themes 
 to sing at the same time. 
 
 Liszt and Henselt gave the Etude aesthetic 
 character, going from the purely pedagogic to 
 the artistic (like the "Etude" in the art of paint- 
 ing) and gave each a name or title ("Mazeppa," 
 "Si oiseau j'etais, a toi je volerais," "Orage, tu ne 
 saurais m'abattre," and so on*). All three intro- 
 duce the transcription of songs and orchestral 
 works for the Piano, dance rhythms with bravura 
 and concert treatment, inaugurating in general the 
 era of transcendental virtuosity for the Pianoforte. 
 
 And what is the influence that they exert 
 upon art? 
 
 Virtuosity exercises an immediate influence 
 on composition in general, widens the range of 
 
 *) Moscheles' "Etudes caracteristiques " are works of the 
 same epoch. Chopin also wrote Etudes at this time without 
 especial Dames, without programme, but worlds of pschycological 
 contents ; for instance, those in E major, E flat minor, C sharp 
 minor, Bflat minor, C minor, and others. I separate the Etudes 
 of these two composers from the above mentioned, because they 
 appear to me of a more serious character musically.
 
 88 
 
 expression and multiplies the means for com- 
 position. As the greatest composers were them- 
 selves Virtuosi, that is, had an excellent technic 
 on their instruments, they influenced the style of 
 composition of the "minorum gentium" and so 
 one went hand in hand with the other, the com- 
 poser was influenced by the virtuosity, and this 
 again by the composer. Besides this, Virtuosity 
 always influenced the construction of the instru- 
 ment. When Beethoven i'n his Sonata op. 110, 
 allows a tone to be struck 28 times in the begin- 
 ning of the adagio, that is a challenge to the 
 instrument maker to try, if possible, to prolong 
 the tone of the Pianoforte. 
 
 Why do the critics war against the Virtuoso 
 and slight him? 
 
 They do so against those who use virtuosity 
 as an end and not a means. I must protest, in a 
 measure, against this ideal point of view. I 
 think "there must be such fellows too!" (Es 
 muss auch solche Kauze geben) for, first, per- 
 fection always commands respect, no matter in
 
 89 
 
 what field it is found, and second, their influence 
 if only indirect is still apparent in the art. 
 
 Thus Paganini's compositions are not of 
 especial worth in an artistic sense, but Paganini 
 gave new life to the Violin ; Servais' Violoncello 
 compositions are of even less worth Servais, 
 however, gave new life to the Violoncello ; Thai- 
 berg's Pianoforte compositions are of the most 
 indifferent art, but Thalberg gave new life to the 
 Pianoforte, and so on. But since the Virtuosi of 
 to-day dare not play their own compositions, but 
 only those of others, they are not able to show us- 
 what they possibly could accomplish, but simply 
 what they are compelled to give, hence the down- 
 fall of Virtuosity for one may dare only in his 
 own composition to "break all bounds," and this 
 " breaking all bounds " furthers the promotion of 
 Virtuosity. The holding fast to what is pre- 
 scribed and demanded is beautiful and noble, yet 
 it does not further promotion. At an earlier day 
 the Virtuoso- incited the instrument maker, by 
 his demands, to perfection of construction, now
 
 90 
 
 the instrument maker tries to induce the Virtuoso, 
 by all manner of inventions, to perfection of 
 technic. There are many very excellent piano 
 players to-day, but of Virtuosi in the sense of 
 advancement I would name Tausig as the last ; the 
 same with the Violin, and we may call Wieniawski 
 its last Virtuoso ; of the Violoncello, Davidoff, and 
 in song, Viardot-Garcia. 
 
 In this point I partly agree with you ; I 
 believe too, that we require the executive artist 
 of to-day to express his individuality in too great 
 a degree, and have in this way created a kind of 
 musical respectability (so to say), which is inter- 
 esting, but ultimately rather wearisome. 
 
 And now you will be horrified with what I 
 am about to say I think, that with the death of 
 Schumann and Chopin "finis musicae"! 
 
 Ha, ha, ha, it cannot be possible that you 
 mean that seriously? 
 
 I mean it perfectly seriously I speak of 
 musical creation, melody, thought. There is 
 much that is interesting and perhaps valuable
 
 91 
 
 written to-day, no doubt, but nothing beautiful, 
 great, deep, or high; especially not in instru- 
 mental music and that is, as you know, my 
 standard. 
 
 How can you prove that? 
 
 By the existing excess of coloring at the 
 expense of drawing, of technic at the expense of 
 thought, of frame at the expense of picture. 
 
 And now I would like to have a clearer and 
 more precise explanation. 
 
 Three names represent the standard bearers 
 of the new era in music (fourth epoch of the art 
 of music) Berlioz, Wagner, and Liszt. The 
 most interesting of the three, even on account of 
 the time in which he appeared (in 1830, by the 
 way), and because he did not become modern, but 
 declared himself, on the contrary, at the very 
 beginning of his musical activity as such, is 
 Berlioz. He discovered new tone-effects in 
 orchestra, held to no prescribed form, regarded 
 the treatment of the text (declamation) as of the 
 greatest value in tone-painting (programme-
 
 92 
 
 music); introduced the realistic in music, that 
 is, made an attempt to do this in his Requiem,, 
 where in the " Tuba mirum " he ranges a host 
 of brass instruments at different places in the hall 
 er church ; took delight in strange and peculiar 
 instrumentation whole chords for eight pairs of 
 drums, chords for contrabass! divisi, substituted 
 flageolets for the stringed instruments of the 
 orchestra, and other things of the same kind, but 
 specific musical thought, melodic invention, beauty 
 of form, richness in harmony (in this respect he 
 was really weak) are not to be found in him. 
 Dazzling in coloring, effective, interesting, he is 
 in everything, but in all tco reflective, subtilized, 
 neither beautiful nor great, neither deep nor 
 high and if one play one of his own compositions 
 on the piano, even four-handed (that is full- 
 toned) the coloring of the instrumentation is lost, 
 and there remains nothing. But play the 9th 
 Symphony of Beethoven upon the piano, even 
 with two hands (that is with less tone) and one is 
 overwhelmed with its greatness of thought and
 
 93 
 
 soulful expression ! One work I wish to except, 
 it is the overture to the "Roman Carnival" a 
 famous composition in musical invention. The 
 second in interest is Wagner. 
 
 Truly, to me he is the most interesting. 
 
 While I was visiting Mendelssohn one Sun- 
 day in Berlin, in '45 or '46, I met Taubert also, 
 who noticing the orchestra-score of Tannhauser 
 on the piano, asked Mendelssohn what he thought 
 of the composer of that opera ? Mendelssohn 
 answered: "A man who writes text and music 
 himself, to his operas, is no common man at all 
 events ! " Yes, no common man, but still not 
 one who reverses my opinion of the modern 
 composers. 
 
 He is also highly interesting, very valuable, 
 but beautiful or great, deep or high in a specific 
 musical sense, he is not. 
 
 Would you deny him novelty too ? 
 
 He is so many-sided as he appears to us that 
 it is difficult to give a general opinion of him. He 
 is, besides, so unsympathetic to me in his art
 
 94 
 
 principles, that my view of him would only annoy 
 you. 
 
 I have had the patience to hear all that you 
 have said until now, and so will be able to listen 
 to your opinion of him. 
 
 He looks upon vocal music as the highest 
 expression of music with the exception of the 
 song and church music, music-worship for me, 
 begins where words cease. He speaks of a Union 
 of Arts (combination of all arts for the Opera) j I 
 think that in such case we could not do entire 
 justice to either. He advocates the Legend 
 (Sage), the Supernatural, as material for Opera 
 text ; in my estimation the legend is always a 
 cold expression of art it may be an interesting 
 and poetic play, but never a drama, for we 
 cannot feel with a supernatural being. 
 
 When a despot .compels a father to shoot an 
 apple from the head of his son^-or when a wife 
 rescues her husband from the dagger-thrust of 
 his enemy by throwing herself between them 
 or when a son is obliged to disown his mother
 
 S5 
 
 publicly and declare her mentally deranged in 
 order to save her life and so forth it stirs the 
 inmost heart, be it spoken or sung or merely 
 represented in pantomime ; but when a hero 
 makes himself invisible in a Tarn-cap, or trans- 
 cendent love is produced by a love-draught, or a 
 knight appears drawn by a swan which shall at 
 last unmask itself as a prince, it may be all very 
 beautiful, very poetic for eye and ear, but the 
 heart, the soul remain entirely apathetic. A 
 Leit-motiv for certain personages or situations is 
 such a naive proceeding, that it leads to the 
 comic rather than to appeal to an earnest thought; 
 allusion rather an old device in the art is some- 
 times effective, yet does not admit of abuse; but 
 the resounding of the same motive at each appear- 
 ance of a character, or when he is only spoken of, 
 and the same for particular situations is a hyper- 
 characteristic, yes, I may say almost a caricature. 
 The exclusion of Arias and ensemble in an Opera 
 is, in my opinion, psychologically incorrect. The 
 aria in the opera is the same as the monologue in
 
 96 
 
 drama the state of mind of a character before or 
 after certain events as well as the ensemble of the 
 emotions of the several characters ; how can it 
 be excluded? Characters who speak only to 
 each other, never to themselves (that is, to the 
 public), become uninteresting, because one can- 
 not discover whether anything, and ivhat is taking 
 place in their minds. A love-duo in which no 
 moment of mutual bliss (singing together) is per- 
 mitted, cannot be quite sincere, the eye to eye, 
 heart on heart resounding U I love thee!" is want- 
 ing ! The Orchestra in his Operas is too much 
 of a good thing, it lessens the interest in the 
 vocal part ; and although, according to his inten- 
 tion, it is to express all that is taking place in 
 the minds of the actors, as they do not express it 
 themselves, the additional importance it gains 
 thereby can only be an evil, for it makes the 
 singing on the stage almost superfluous ; one 
 often feels like begging that it may be silenced 
 so that he may hear what is going on on the 
 stage. It would be difficult to find a more in-
 
 97 
 
 teresting orchestra in an opera than that of 
 "Fidelio," and in it this necessity is not for one 
 moment felt. Making the change of scene 
 invisible by means of rising vapours is really too 
 unbearable. Theatre impossibilities are not to 
 be remedied, it is impossible to make a change 
 of scene any other way than by changing the 
 scene ; whether the scene sinks or rises, whether 
 an intervening curtain falls or vapours arise, it is 
 the same, the illusion is disturbed, but any sort of 
 disturbance is after all to be preferred to the 
 Hiss-Symphony of rising vapours ! Darkening 
 the audience chamber during the performance is 
 rather a caprice than a real aesthetic necessity. 
 The proportion of illumination gained by the 
 stage and impersonators by this means, is really 
 not so important that the hearer should be obliged 
 to suffer the longing for matches for a whole 
 evening. For this innovation the Theatre Direc- 
 tors alone will return him thanks on account of 
 the reduction in the expense of illumination. The 
 invisible orchestra which is of real effect only in the
 
 98 
 
 first scene of his " Rheingold " is an hyper-ideal 
 demand, and for no other opera, not even for his 
 own does it stand the test. The muffled sound 
 of the orchestra in this novel position makes it 
 undesirable aside from that, invisible music is 
 effective only in the church, where one looks 
 within himself, not about him ; there are but 
 few compositions, mostly of Beethoven or Chopin 
 that gain in effect, heard in this manner but 
 the Tannhauser-Overture, for example, would at 
 any rate lose in effect, if one could not see the 
 movements of the arms in the violin-figure at 
 the close. From an ideal standpoint there is so 
 much to disturb one in seeing or hearing a work 
 of art, yet one accommodates himself to it and 
 should not demand the impossible hence the 
 sight of a director and the musicians of the 
 orchestra in the performance of an Opera is not 
 so frightful that the pure musical effect in the 
 beauty of tone should be sacrificed to avoid it. 
 
 You speak altogether of art principles, but 
 say nothing of his music ?
 
 99 
 
 The doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope 
 perhaps disgusted many a one with the Catholic 
 Church. Had Wagner composed, brought out r 
 and published his Operas, without expressing his 
 own opinions about them in his writings, they 
 would have been praised, blamed, loved or not r 
 as in the case of the other composers, but to 
 declare himself as the only source of happiness, 
 awakens opposition and protest. Some of his 
 works are indeed worthy of respect (Lohengrin, 
 Meistersinger and the Faust Overture I like best 
 among them), but the principle, the reflected 
 pretensions in his creations disgust me with them 
 in general. The lack of naturalness, simplicity, 
 makes them unsympathetic to me. All of the 
 characters in his operas stride about on stilts (in 
 the sense of the musical) always disclaiming, 
 never speaking, always pathetic, never dramatic, 
 always as gods or semi-gods, never as human, or as 
 a simple mortal. Everything makes the impres- 
 sion of the six foot Alexandrian verse, of the cold 
 forced alliteration.
 
 100 
 
 His melody is either lyric or pathetic, no 
 other mood is to be heard it is noble and 
 broad, but always only noble and .broad ; void of 
 rhythmic charm and of variety hence entirely 
 lacking diversity of musical characteristic ; 
 neither a Zerlina or a Leonora are imaginable 
 from him even in case of his Evchen in the 
 Meistersinger, the diminutive clicn is present 
 in the name only, and not to be heard in the 
 music. His melody never indicates the musical 
 thought, the character, his text alone does that 
 (the leit-motiv indicates only the outer, not the 
 inner character); hence his operas with few 
 exceptions played upon the pianoforte without 
 underlying text would be mostly unintelligible, 
 but Don Juan, Fidelio, Freischutz played upon 
 the piano would always bring before one a satis- 
 factory picture of the different characters, yes, 
 even the whole action of the Opera. His orches- 
 tra is indeed new and imposing, but not seldom 
 monotonous in the means of effect or in the un- 
 impassioned parts 5 often trying to the nerves in
 
 101 
 
 the soft instrumentation as well as in the energetic 
 powerful parts wanting in economy and variety 
 of shading, because Wagner (as to-day in fact all 
 do) paints (musically) from beginning to end of his 
 works with all the colors at his command. Thus 
 he is no doubt a highly interesting appearance 
 in music, but in comparison with the great ones 
 of the past, merely specifically musical for me, 
 and of a very questionable art ! 
 
 Vox populi declares him a genius. 
 
 The public has heard and read so often of 
 its own incapacity to recognize a genius during 
 his life-time that it is now ready to declare any 
 one a genius out of mere fear of bringing upon 
 itself the reproach of non-recognition. 
 
 But you do not recognize that Wagner 
 breathed a new life into the Opera f 
 
 Every art has its own conditions of life, its 
 especial claims, its limits and so on, also every 
 branch of art. To wish to make anything else 
 out of an Opera than an Opera may no doubt be 
 very interesting, but it annuls the Opera. It
 
 102 
 
 seems to me like the pianoforte manufacturer's 
 attempt to make string- or wind-instrument 
 "attachments" to the Pianoforte in order to pro- 
 long or change the character of the tone a 
 wholly useless attempt. An Adagio of Beethoven 
 or a Nocturne of Chopin is conceived and in- 
 tended for the Pianoforte and its tone-character, 
 its arrangement for another instrument is like 
 coloring a white marble statw (the arranging of 
 an orchestral work for the Pianoforte is different 
 that is musical photography). Wagner creates 
 then a new branch of art (Music-Drama) 
 whether it was necessary and whether it possesses 
 vitality enough to live, time must teach us ! 
 
 You have not succeeded in taking away my 
 admiration for him. 
 
 I am far from wishing to force my opinion 
 upon you in any one of the questions we have 
 discussed so far. I merely express them to you. 
 
 The third of the u ars militans" is Liszt. 
 Demon of music I would call him! Inflaming, 
 intoxicating by his fantastic style, bewitching by
 
 103 
 
 his grace, raising one with him in his flight to 
 the highest height, and dragging one with him 
 to the deepest deep, taking on and off all forms, 
 ideal and real at once, knowing all and able to do 
 all, but false in all, insincere, contentious, 
 theatrical, and bearing in himself the evil prin- 
 ciple. He has two periods in his artistic career 
 the first, the Virtuoso-period, the second, the 
 Composer-period. The first is in my estimation 
 his most illustrious unattained and unattainable 
 in piano playing, highly interesting in his Virtuoso 
 compositions (Opera Fantasias, Etudes, Song- 
 transcriptions, Hungarian Rhapsodies, smaller 
 concert pieces, and others) he shone, the most 
 brilliant star in the musical firmament from the 
 year 1830 until 1852, dazzling the public of all 
 Europe with his light. Appearing at the same 
 time as Thalberg, one need only look over the 
 Fantasias of both on a theme from Don Juan to 
 become aware of the difference, wide as heaven, 
 that distinguishes them. Thalberg, the prim, 
 smooth, curried, insignificant, perfect Salon-
 
 104 
 
 gentleman (in a musical sense), Liszt the poetic, 
 romantic, interesting, highly musical^ imposing 
 individuality with long, shaggy hair, with a 
 Dante profile, and with a captivating personality. 
 Words are far too poor to describe his piano play- 
 ing incomparable in every way, the culmina- 
 tion of everything that Pianoforte rendering could 
 require. What a grievous pity that the phono- 
 graph did not exist in the years 1840, 1850, to 
 receive his playing and hold it for the future 
 generations who have no idea of real Pianoforte 
 Virtuosity. One must have heard Chopin, Liszt, 
 Thalberg, and Henselt to know what genuine 
 piano-playing means. Added to all his greatness 
 as Pianoforte Virtuoso Liszt has the inestimable 
 merit to have helped by word, pen, and his art, 
 many an unknown, forgotten, or unappreciated 
 composer to recognition, and to have presented 
 them to the public. His period of composition, 
 from 1853 on is in my opinion of a sorry art. 
 In each of his compositions "one marks design 
 and is out of tune." Programme-music carried
 
 105 
 
 to the highest extreme, eternal gesticulation; in 
 his church music before God in his orchestral 
 works before the public in his song-transcriptions 
 before the composers*), in his Hungarian Rhap- 
 sodies before the Gipsies enough, always and in 
 all gesticulation "Dans les arts il faut faire 
 grand" was a common expression of his, hence 
 the sprawled out character of his compositions. 
 His desire for novelty (a tout prix) gave him the 
 idea of forming whole compositions of one and 
 the same theme. Sonata, Concerto, Symphonic 
 Poem, all with one theme only an absolutely 
 unmusical proceeding. A theme has a certain 
 character, a mood if it be forced to vary its 
 character and mood by change of tempo and 
 rhythm, the whole composition loses in character 
 and mood, and can at best only arise to the 
 variation. The forms of composition are not the 
 
 *) His most genial transcription is that of Schubert's Erl- 
 Konig ; the majority of the others are made very uupleasing and 
 unsatisfactory by the use of the melody as phrase in various 
 registers, and by changing and adding to it.
 
 106 
 
 caprice of one composer, but have developed with 
 the times and aesthetic necessities. So : the 
 Sonata form to set this aside means to extem- 
 porize, a Fantasia is however not a Symphony, 
 not a Sonata, not a Concerto. Architecture is 
 nearest allied to music in its fundamental prin- 
 ciples can a formless house or church or any 
 other building be imagined ? *) Or a structure, 
 where the fagade is a church, another part of the 
 structure a railway station, another part a floral 
 pavillion, and still another part a manufactory, 
 and so on ? Hence lack of form in music is 
 improvisation, yes, borders almost on digression. 
 Symphonic Poems (so he calls his orchestral 
 works) are supposed to be another new form of 
 art whether a necessity and vital enough to 
 
 *) The C-major Fantasia of Schubert is also built upon a 
 theme ; it is however, first, a Fantasia, thus, logical freedom in 
 the form second, it is in four movements of which each is 
 thoroughly worked out in a decided mood, hence not simply 
 an episodic appearance of the motives ; a little Adagio tempo, 
 and a little Allegro tempo, a little of Scherzo character, and a 
 little of tragic character, and so on.
 
 107 
 
 live, time, as v in the case of Wagner's Music- 
 Drama, must teach us. His orchestral instru- 
 mentation exhibits the same mastery as that of 
 Berlioz and Wagner, even bears their stamp; 
 with that, however, it is to be remembered that 
 his Pianoforte is the Orchestra-Pianoforte and his 
 Orchestra the Pianoforte-Orchestra, for the or- 
 chestral composition sounds like an instrumented 
 Pianoforte composition. All in all I see in 
 Berlioz, Wagner and Liszt, the Virtuoso-Com- 
 poser, and I would be glad to believe that their 
 "breaking all bounds" may be an advantage to 
 the coming genius. In the sense however of 
 specifically musical creation I can recognize 
 neither one of them as a composer and, in 
 addition to this, 1 have noticed so far that all 
 three of them are wanting in the chief charm 
 of creation the naive that stamp of geniality 
 and, at the same time, that proof that genius 
 after all is a child of humanity. Their influence 
 on the composers of the day is great, but as I 
 believe unhealthy; it is not uninteresting to
 
 108 
 
 observe in this particular which of them and 
 where their influence is greatest. In Germany 
 it is Wagner, on most of the young and Liszt, 
 on a very few of the instrumental composers 5 
 in France and Russia only Berlioz and Liszt 
 and on the instrumental composers alone, since 
 in France Meyerbeer still holds sway; in 
 Russia wholly in a reflected national style ; in 
 Italy it is Liszt alone whose influence has 
 turned the young composers there to instru- 
 mental composition, a branch which until now 
 seemed opposed to the nature of the Italian. 
 I believe that this will finally remain so. 
 
 For you then the art period of to-day is only 
 a transition period ? 
 
 At best. Whether it will develop and into 
 what, time will teach us I shall probably not live 
 to see and so I weep by the waters of Babylon, 
 and for me the harp is silent ! 
 
 If that is really so, then you have eaten of 
 the tree of knowledge, and for that reason lose 
 your paradise of delight.
 
 109 
 
 Only the pleasures of memory are mine still. 
 
 In your opinion then, there is nothing more 
 that is beautiful and great to await in music ? 
 
 Who can undertake to foretell the future ? 
 I speak only and alone of to-day. 
 
 But the living, as Brahms, Dvorak, Grieg, 
 Ooldmark, Massenet, Saint-Saens, Verdi, Gounod, 
 Tschaikowsky, and others of the composers, 
 Joachim, Sarasate, Biilow, D'Albert, Stockhausen, 
 F.aure, Patti, and others of the executive art ? 
 
 "De vivis nihil nisi bene!" And besides 
 the most of those you mention are the children of 
 -an earlier epoch I mean after-growth. 
 
 Well, if one take no pleasure in the music of 
 to-day, he can surely enjoy the older music; it is 
 offered him to-day oftener than ever and rendered 
 in the best manner. 
 
 Often certainly altogether too often there 
 is really too much music now-a-days! 
 
 Are you then opposed to the popularization 
 of music ? 
 
 This question has two sides each of which
 
 110 
 
 has its justification but as often as I have 
 thought it over, I cannot decide which is the 
 better. It is certainly desirable that the masses 
 learn to know the master works of the art of 
 music, hear them and come to hear them, bring- 
 ing with them some understanding for them; for 
 this it is necessary to found Garden and Popular 
 Concerts, etc., to found Music Schools, Choral 
 Societies, Philharmonic Societies, Symphony Con- 
 certs, and so on but on the other hand music 
 demands, I feel, a consecration, a cult in a temple 
 to which only the initiated have entrance; she 
 requires that she be the chosen of the elect, 
 enough, to hold some mystery in herself and for 
 the outer world which of these two views is the 
 right one? 
 
 I would not like, for example, to hear the 
 9th Symphony, or the last String Quartette, or 
 the last Pianoforte Sonatas by Beethoven in a 
 Garden or Popular Concert and not at all for 
 fear that it would not be understood, but for fear 
 it might perhaps be understood !
 
 Ill 
 
 You really take too much delight in para- 
 doxes. 
 
 I am also not clear whether the Art Museums 
 (in a real sense) are or have been an education 
 of the people for the plastic art, or whether they 
 are not and always were merely educational 
 institutes for the intellectual part of the com- 
 munity. 
 
 I believe that for the people the art of music 
 is subject to other educational laws than those 
 of the plastic arts, and hence cannot be compared 
 with them. 
 
 Well, we will leave this question altogether 
 unsolved. I am however in all earnestness of 
 the opinion that on account of the hearing and 
 making of too much music, for example, it i& 
 very difficult for a composer of to-day to con- 
 centrate himself (one of the principal necessities 
 in creating) ; for he is obliged to hear and play sa 
 much of the music of others, not his own, is obliged 
 still, after an exciting winter season and the ever 
 increasing throng of springtide music festivals.
 
 112 
 
 (of the public I will say nothing, and can only- 
 wonder at its enormous love for music !) to rush 
 away tired, mayhap even ill, to a summer-resort; 
 to listen three times a day there to a concert! 
 and if these programmes were only made up of 
 Dances, Folk-songs, Military Music and the like 
 but no, it is again the Tannhauser Overture, 
 the Feuer-Zauber, Mozart, Weber, and so on. 
 
 But the public is not composed solely of 
 musicians who should not and do not wish to 
 hear music. 
 
 For this reason one seldom returns from a 
 summer-resort really benefited. But let us again 
 resume our conversation seriously. You spoke 
 before of the best interpretation of the master 
 works now-a-days I have my doubts of that 
 the interpreters of to-day (Director and Virtuoso) 
 delight especially in a capricious interpretation 
 of the classical works (for which Wagner and 
 Liszt are most to blame)^-change of tempo, holds, 
 ritardandos, stringendos, crescendos, and so on, not 
 written by the composer. Pianoforte editions,
 
 113 
 
 with effect-expression (?) revisions of pianoforte 
 compositions (Henselt, Tausig), adding Or- 
 chestra to Pianoforte compositions, melting two 
 compositions into one (Liszt), re-instrumentation 
 of Chopin's Pianoforte Concertos (diverse), yes, 
 even " horribile dictu " adding instruments to 
 Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Wagner!) ignoring 
 the signs of repetition and much besides. In the 
 last particular it is really astounding that pro- 
 fessional musicians can give themselves to such 
 an unmusical proceeding! In Haydn, Mozart, 
 and especially Beethoven the signs of repetition 
 are in no case caprice, but on the contrary an 
 integral part of the structure of the composition. 
 Perhaps in the Adagio of Mozart's Jupiter Sym- 
 phony, and in the repetition of the Scherzo after 
 the Trio in Beethoven's 9th Symphony only, are 
 the signs of repetition of a questionable nature 
 (in Schubert, with exception of the Scherzos, 
 they also generally bear the usually-accepted 
 character) but, for example, in the Trio in 
 D-major, in the last movement of the F-minor
 
 114 
 
 Sonata, op. 57, in the second movement of the 
 B-flat major Trio, and above all, in the String 
 Quartettes and Symphonies of Beethoven their 
 omission is absolutely a "crimen laesionis majes- 
 tatis"! Cutting, (customary so often, in the 
 works of Schubert especially) belongs to the 
 same category of crime. How shall one describe 
 the way in which the latter is done in the Operas, 
 the Directors always justifying themselves by 
 saying that it is done for the good of the com- 
 position and the composer that seems to m& 
 like the theory of the Inquisition, which com- 
 pelled a man to be burned alive u in order to save 
 his soul" 
 
 It is not however to be denied that many an 
 opera has gained by cutting ? 
 
 Without doubt, but this must be done by the 
 composer himself, or not without his acquiescence. 
 
 There are still several questions in regard to 
 the art of music upon which I should like to have- 
 your opinion will you give it to me ? 
 
 Willingly of course entirely uncondition-
 
 115 
 
 ally, not as a law, but according to the best of 
 my knowledge and feeling. 
 
 I hear so much said about the subjective and 
 objective in interpretation which is the better? 
 
 I am wholly at a loss to understand what is 
 meant by the objective in interpretation in any 
 case. 
 
 Every interpretation, if it is made by a person 
 and not by a machine is eo ipso subjective. To 
 do justice to the object (the composition) is the 
 law and duty of every interpreter, but of course 
 each one in his own way, that is, subjectively 
 and how is any other imaginable ? There are 
 no two persons of the same character, the same 
 nervous system, the same physical complexion; 
 even the difference of touch of the piano players, 
 of the tone of Violin and 'Cello players, and the 
 quality of the voice in singers, of the nature of 
 the Director effect the subjective in interpretation. 
 
 Should the conception of a composition be 
 objective, there could be only one right one, and 
 all executants would be obliged to accommodate
 
 116 
 
 themselves to it what would an executive artist 
 be in that case! A monkey? 
 
 Of course, if a subjective interpretation 
 makes an Allegro of an Adagio or a Funeral 
 March of a Scherzo it becomes nonsense but to 
 render an Adagio in a given tempo according to 
 one's own feeling cannot be called doing injustice 
 to the object. Should it be different in the inter- 
 pretation of music than it is in the Art of Acting? 
 Is there only one correct art of Hamlet or King 
 Lear ? and must each actor only ape one Hamlet, 
 or one King Lear in order to do justice to the 
 subject? Ergo, I can only allow of the subjective 
 in the interpretation of music. 
 
 What is your opinion of our young Russian 
 school ? 
 
 It is> in instrumental music, the fruit of the 
 influence of Berlioz and Liszt with the additional 
 influence of the pianoforte compositions of Schu- 
 mann and Chopin, and in general an effort in the 
 direction of the reflective-national. Its creation is 
 also based on a perfect control of technic and on
 
 117 
 
 masterly coloring but also on an entire absence of 
 outline and the previously-reigning want of form. 
 Taking Glinka, who has written a few orchestral 
 works on Folk-songs and Folk-dances (Kamarins- 
 kaja, Jota Aragonesa, Nuit a Madrid, as model), 
 they write too, mostly on Folk-songs and Folk- 
 dances, giving evidence thereby of their own lack 
 of invention, yet cloak their works with the name 
 "National Art," "New School," and so on. 
 Whether we are to await anything from the future 
 in this direction I do not know; I do not wish to 
 despair entirely for I believe that the peculiarity 
 in melody, rhythm, and in the musical character 
 of the Russian Folk -music gives promise of a new 
 harvest for music in general (I consider the Ori- 
 ental music also capable of as much); there are 
 besides a few representatives of this new school 
 not without high musical endowment. 
 
 In all that we have said heretofore, you have 
 only mentioned the names of women in speaking 
 of the art of singing, was that forgetfulness or 
 intentional 1
 
 118 
 
 The growing increase of women in the art 
 of music, in instrumental execution as well as in 
 composition (I exclude the art of singing, the field 
 in which she has always accomplished so much 
 of excellence) dates from the second half of our 
 century I consider this excess also as one of 
 the signs of the downfall of our art. 
 
 Woman is wanting in two principal requisites 
 for the executive art as well as for the creative 
 Subjectivity and Initiative. They cannot raise 
 themselves as executants above the objective 
 (imitation) for the subjective they are wanting 
 in courage and conviction. For musical creation 
 they lack depth, concentration, the power of 
 thought, breadth of feeling, freedom of stroke, 
 and so on. It is enigmatical to me that exactly 
 music the noblest, most beautiful, most refined, 
 soulful, loving art that the mind of man has 
 created, is so unattainable to woman, who is still 
 a combination of all these qualities ! *) In poetry, 
 
 * ) And the same of Architecture another proof of the rela- 
 tionship existing betAveen the two arts.
 
 119 
 
 literature, painting, and all the other arts, even 
 in the sciences, she has accomplished much! 
 
 The two feelings most natural to her: her love 
 to man and her tenderness to her children, have 
 never found, from her, their echo in music. I 
 know no love-duet composed by a woman, and 
 no cradle-song. I do not say that there are none 
 in existence, but that none composed by a woman 
 has had sufficient artistic value to be stamped as 
 type. 
 
 That is not flattering for our sex. If it be 
 the case, however, we must comfort ourselves 
 with the hope that, as women have devoted them- 
 selves in such quantity to music of late, they 
 may in time attain and give evidence of corre- 
 sponding quality. Perhaps the next Beethoven 
 and the next Liszt may be women ! 
 
 I shall not live to see it hence I will not 
 try to rob you of the hope. 
 
 I should like to know your views in regard 
 to Music Schools and Conservatories the advan- 
 tages of which are doubted by so many, yes, the
 
 120 
 
 very existence of which is entirely discounte- 
 nanced by others. 
 
 There you touch a tender spot for me I 
 myself have been founder of such institutions. 
 It is not to be denied that our great masters are 
 not the offspring of Schools of Music but still 
 that does not prove that Music Schools are un- 
 necessary, and that they have not been of great 
 value to the art. The principal object of the 
 Music School was always and must always be to 
 increase the average number of well-schooled 
 musicians. The immense spread of the art of 
 music makes the Music School a demand also, 
 yes, a necessity. When we think what a host 
 (Choruses, Orchestras, Soloists, Directors, Music 
 Teachers, and so on) the Art of Music requires 
 now-a-days we must acknowledge that private 
 instruction could not possibly meet the require- 
 ments. Besides, the Music School has advantages 
 in itself that are not to be undervalued the 
 musical atmosphere of the school alone is of great 
 advantage to a disciple of music added to this
 
 121 
 
 the stimulation which belongs to all class instruc- 
 tion, and always acts as an incentive and so on. 
 That Music Schools do not always fulfill their task 
 is no doubt true, in my opinion for two reasons : 
 first, for lack of sufficient money, when the school 
 is not a government institution, and second, 
 because the programme of instruction is made up 
 too exclusively of the technical, that is, not enough 
 of the ideal and neglects the practical education 
 of the pupil. If the school be a government insti- 
 tution, the first point is probably solved, but then 
 comes the system of protection, philanthropic 
 standpoints, mostly false ideas of art, disregard 
 of the most important and ideal in the count of 
 cost, so that the institution may be very easily 
 turned into a Music-factory, or a Music-barracks, 
 or even into a Music-hospital. If the Music 
 School be a private undertaking, the money 
 question is 'apt to play such a weighty role that 
 one can scarcely speak of the interests or demands 
 of art. This second point deserves very earnest 
 consideration especially in reference to the final
 
 122 
 
 examination. Generally a pupil of the Music 
 School during the whole time spent there is drilled 
 technically by his teacher to such a degree that he 
 almost always makes a good final examination, and 
 so receives the diploma accordingly he is, how- 
 ever, rarely ripe for independent work, and there- 
 fore receives the slight of the public, and with 
 him also the institution where he received his 
 musical education. This could be remedied, in 
 my opinion, in the following manner: Grive the 
 pupil, perhaps two months before his examina- 
 tion, a number of pieces of different composers, 
 of different character, of different epochs of art 
 (Concerto, Chamber Music, and Solo) for the 
 Pianoforte for example, from Scarlatti on until 
 and including Liszt, which he must be required 
 to study alone , that is without the assistance of his 
 teacher (of course one must be able to depend 
 entirely upon the honor of both teacher and 
 pupil ! I) in the same way for singing, for string 
 or wind-instruments, and for each and every 
 branch of the profession. If the pupil absolve
 
 123 
 
 such an examination with honor, he, his teacher 
 and the institution may rest assured the ripeness 
 of the pupil is proven, the paedagogic qualities 
 of the teacher exhibited, and the value of the 
 school no more a question that each has fulfilled 
 his task. 
 
 I once met a pupil of a well known con- 
 servatory, shortly after his examination, who 
 played me his examination piece (the first solo!) 
 from Hummer's B-minor Concerto, and that very 
 well, but who could play me neither its first 
 tutti nor one measure beyond the solo he had 
 learned ! 
 
 I too have had a remarkable experience in 
 this regard! 
 
 When I hear piano playing I think how 
 happy the earlier composers would have been to 
 have known the instrument of to-day! 
 
 I believe that the instruments of all times 
 must have had tone-coloring and effects that we 
 cannot produce on the Pianoforte of to-day. 
 That the compositions were always intended for
 
 124 
 
 the character of the instrument in use, and only 
 upon such could be heard fully as intended, and 
 therefore played upon the pianoforte of to-day 
 they would perhaps be heard to disadvantage. 
 If Ph. Em. Bach could write a book on the 
 expression in Pianoforte playing it must have 
 been possible to interpret with expression on the 
 Piano of that day, but we cannot imagine it 
 possible on the instruments now known to us as 
 Clavecin, Clavichord, Clavicembalo, Spinet, etc. r 
 and he speaks no doubt of an instrument known 
 to his father also. We can at any rate know 
 nothing decidedly of the instruments of that 
 day; even those to be found in the Museums of 
 London, Paris, Brussels, and so on, give us no 
 idea, since time would destroy the tone of a 
 piano entirely beyond recognition, and besides 
 to us, the most important point, ilic manner of 
 playing these instruments is wholly unknown. 
 It is strange how little the professional makers 
 (instrument makers) know of these things! 
 
 In London I attended a lecture on this sub-
 
 125 
 
 ject, where a professional declared that J. S. 
 Bach wrote his Pianoforte compositions, among 
 them the Chromatic Fantasia for the Spinet 
 is it possible to imagine this ? Even the recita- 
 tive in it Avould brand this statement as false 
 but in addition, such compositions as the Prelude 
 in F-rnajor in Part II. of his Wohltemperirte 
 Clavier, or the Sarabande in G-minor or D-minor 
 from the English suite! Are the four to eight 
 measures prolongation of a tone written for the 
 eye alone ? There must have been attachments 
 to the Spinet of that day (now unknown) which 
 made it possible to sustain a tone, as on the har- 
 monium of to-day. 
 
 Just so I do not believe, as is generally said 
 to-day, that Mozart wrote for the Spinet the 
 orchestration of his Pianoforte Concertos makes 
 that improbable, also the five octave compass of 
 his Pianoforte compositions. It is possible that 
 he had a Spinet in his work room, but publicly 
 he must have played upon a beautiful toned 
 Grand Piano. The pinched, short, small tone of
 
 126 
 
 the Spinet known to us would not allow the- 
 brilliancy of the passage or the wonderful charm 
 of his melody in his compositions, it must be, 
 then, that the instrument a hundred years ago 
 had an entirely different tone from the one we 
 hear from it to-day. 
 
 In your opinion then, the Pianoforte of our 
 day is no advance! 
 
 No advance in the sense of works before the 
 time of Beethoven. I would like to recommend 
 a different use (touch and pedal) of the Pianoforte 
 of our day, in playing the compositions of different 
 epochs. So for example, I would play a piece of 
 Haydn or Mozart on the instrument of our day, 
 especially in "forte" with the left pedal because 
 their "forte" has not the character of the Beethoven 
 "forte" especially not of the latest composers. 
 Playing Handel and especially Bach, I would try 
 by means of variety of touch and change of pedal 
 to register, that is, give them throughout an 
 organ-like character. Hummel I would try to 
 play with scholastic, short, clear touch and very
 
 127 
 
 little pedal. Weber and Mendelssohn with very 
 brilliant execution and pedal Weber in his 
 Sonatas and Concertstiick with operatic, dramatic, 
 and Mendelssohn in his Songs without Words with 
 lyric character. Beethoven, Schubert, Schu- 
 mann, Chopin, and of course the later composers, 
 require all the resources imaginable in our instru- 
 ment of to-day. 
 
 I must confess, that to me also the com- 
 positions of Haydn and Mozart sound too strong 
 and full played upon the Pianoforte of to-day. 
 
 I go so far, that I do not like to hear their 
 string-quartettes played with a large tone and 
 broad bowing, neither do I like to hear their 
 Symphonies by an orchestra of great number 
 in short, my desire in the interpretation would be 
 variety in the tone coloring for the different 
 epochs of art. 
 
 You speak of organ registration for the 
 Pianoforte how do you mean that ? 
 
 Of course merely in the sense of suggestion, 
 by means of change of pedal and powerful or
 
 128 
 
 light touch. In doing so I imagine the places 
 which demand the pedal, played with the right 
 pedal of the Pianoforte, and that not in the sense 
 of the theoretical requirements of the harmony, 
 but in the sense of the weight of the organ 
 pedal, that is, often without lifting the pedal in 
 the change of harmony. 
 
 Still, that could only be applicable to Organ 
 compositions arranged for the Piano, since no 
 Organ character is required in the compositions 
 written by Bach for the Piano. 
 
 It seems to me as though Bach thought of 
 the Organ in everything he wrote with the excep- 
 tion of his Dances, and perhaps, the Preludes (and 
 even among these there are many which have an 
 organ-like character) ; but, as a matter of course, 
 what he has written for the Pianoforte must be 
 played upon the Pianoforte it is only that I 
 cannot dismiss the idea that his Piano must have 
 had attachments that made it possible to vary the 
 quality of tone, hence this continual desire for 
 '" registering" when I play these compositions.
 
 129 
 
 I confess that this is a musical paradox of mine 
 and i i peccavit. v 
 
 Is it really so entirely impossible to find out 
 anything reliable in regard to the manner of 
 interpretation of the older compositions? 
 
 Unfortunately the composers before Haydn 
 have left us entirely in the dark as to their 
 intentions in the rendering of their compositions; 
 neither tempo nor shading has been indicated by 
 them (Ph. Em. Bach has even writtten only the 
 upper voice and the bass in his Pianoforte com- 
 positions), they have left it then altogether to our 
 understanding and caprice, and by so doing have 
 created a truly chaotic state of affairs. 
 
 This has, however, been ameliorated in later 
 times by classical editions edited by distinguished 
 musicians f 
 
 Regarding this I expressed my opinion 
 several years ago in a letter to the music pub- 
 lisher, Bartholf Senff; the evil has rather in- 
 creased than diminished. One can scarcely 
 obtain a composition by these masters until
 
 130 
 
 and including Chopin, that is not published after 
 the manner of some famed musician. If after 
 the publication of the large editions by Bach, 
 Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., the publisher 
 would only publish the pieces singly, the public 
 would be correspondingly thankful! Now, if one 
 wishes to know how a fugue of the Wohltem- 
 perirte Clavier looks in the original edition he 
 must find it in the Library Book X of the Bach 
 edition. The public derives no benefit from this 
 and must content itself with the edition of a 
 famous musician; of what a problematic nature 
 these editions are we have sufficient proof in 
 Czerny's edition of the Wohltemperirte Clavier. 
 
 But exactly his edition has been regarded as 
 a model for many years ? 
 
 Yet, in my opinion, it is so unhappy. I 
 have never been able to reconcile myself either 
 to the indications of tempo or to the shading in 
 the Preludes or in the Fugues. 
 
 A very few examples will be sufficient. 
 To give the fugue in C-minor ; Part I., a delicate
 
 131 
 
 staccato character where immediately after (the 
 fugue is one of the shorter ones) a close enters 
 whose import would require a 32-foot Organ is, 
 to say the least, very questionable; to give 
 the theme of the succeeding fugue in C sharp 
 major a lively character by making the eighth 
 staccato is again questionable, for the whole fugue 
 is of lyric import and legato character. The nota- 
 tion: two notes legato and two staccato in the 
 theme of the fugue in Gr minor, Part I., is really 
 too much against reason, since by this means it 
 gains a scherzo character, while it plainly (as the 
 minor key indicates) is of a melancholy, com- 
 plaining, singing character. To give the Prelude 
 in F minor in Part II. a slow tempo is also singu- 
 lar, for from the fifth measure a figure is used 
 which in a slow tempo would be very tiresome 
 is the latter even imaginable in Bach I and in the 
 same manner, many other things. In this I do 
 not mean in any way to call into question or de- 
 preciate the pedagogic importance of Czerny, I 
 myself reckon him as one of the very best in this
 
 132 
 
 respect his edition however seems to me abso- 
 lutely false. It is true that our beautiful, divine 
 art has this misfortune that it cannot make two 
 musicians the same in feeling. And how differ- 
 ently musicians feel is proved sufficiently in the 
 Prelude in C major of Part I. of the same Wohl- 
 temperirte Clavier. To me it is the real rnodu- 
 latory Pianoforte prelude, a chain of broken 
 chords (Arpeggi) to be played in quick tempo 
 with brilliant touch to many others a dreamy 
 piece, to be executed with soft shading. 
 Since Gounod used it as a foundation for his 
 "Ave Maria" many are of the opinion that 
 without the melody it has also a religious char- 
 acter, etc. 
 
 This is indeed sad for the classic compo- 
 sitions ? 
 
 O very, very sad, unless an academic edition 
 of their works should be published soon, in which 
 tempo, marks of expression, character of the 
 composition, art of embellishment, etc., are 
 academically decided.
 
 133 
 
 To the best of my knowledge Ph. Em. Bach 
 has written a treatise on embellishments I 
 
 Yes, he has, but first, he had in view the 
 manner of rendering the embellishments for the 
 instruments of that day; whether this would be 
 applicable now-a-days to our instruments of the 
 same character is very questionable second, the 
 composers of that day did not write their 
 embellishments in one and the same manner, 
 and Ph. Em. Bach wrote his treatise merely for 
 the embellishments in his father's works, third, 
 there are to-day not two musicians of the same 
 opinion in regard to the rendering of embellish- 
 ments. 
 
 In such a condition of affairs an academic 
 edition of composers until and including Beethoven 
 at least is a great need. 
 
 If musicians might only agree on any one 
 question in music ! ? 
 
 I have heard that you do not agree with the 
 programmes of the Symphony Concerts. 
 
 I confess that the "tutti frutti" character
 
 134 
 
 usual in the arrangement of such programmes is 
 disagreeable to me. A Symphony by Haydn, and 
 immediately following "Tannhauser-Overture" 
 by Wagner, or the reverse, is offensive to me; 
 and that not on account of the preference for one 
 composer or another, or one work and another, 
 but on account of the glaring difference in tone- 
 coloring. I would prefer a whole programme 
 (Overture, Aria, Concerto, Songs, Solo, Sym- 
 phony) by one and the same composer. 
 
 Is there one, Beethoven perhaps excepted, 
 who would dare put the patience of the public to 
 such a test? 
 
 I do not speak of Operas, in which subject 
 and scenery might make amends for the occa- 
 sional tedium of the music ; nor of sacred or 
 profane Oratorios and Cantatas where the text 
 helps the interest. 
 
 But we go to hear a lecture on a certain 
 theme, and whether one agrees with the lecturer 
 or not he listens to him. We visit too the 
 Atelier of a painter or sculptor, the objects there
 
 135 
 
 may not please us altogether, but we look at 
 them. So it must be in the case of a composer. 
 
 If, however, the listening to the different 
 works of one composer is not practicable I would 
 at least recommend the division into two epochs ; 
 the epoch from Palestrina to Schumann and 
 Chopin inclusive, and the epoch from Berlioz 
 to the composers of the day*) inclusive, and in 
 this way include in each series of Subscription- 
 Concerts a Concerto of the first and a concerto of 
 the second epoch. 
 
 To the best of my knowledge you are also 
 opposed to the customary placing of the orchestra? 
 
 The placing of the orchestra is a question 
 not solved so far the Symphony requires one 
 placing, the Oratorio another, the Opera again 
 another. It has always seemed to me, that in 
 the Symphony Concerts, in placing the I. violins 
 
 *) I reckon the composers Gaff, Gade, Brahms, Bruch, 
 Goldmark, etc., as belonging to the first epoch, first on account 
 of the character of their creations, and second, on account of 
 their musical training.
 
 136 
 
 to the left and the II. violins to the right of 
 the director, the listeners on the left hear too 
 little and the listeners on the right too much of 
 the second voice. I have attempted (the orchestra 
 always grumbling) placing the string quartette 
 in plenum on both sides of the Director, that is, 
 the second violins next to the first ascending the 
 estrade, and then the violas, then 'celli, then con- 
 trabassi on the left of the estrade; and in the same 
 manner again the first, second violas, etc., on the 
 right side of the estrade, the wind instruments 
 from the flutes and oboes on to the trombones, in 
 the middle of the estrade, ascending the estrade 
 from the director, and above these also the tim- 
 pani and other percussion instruments. I was 
 told the sound was much more satisfactory and 
 beautiful to the audience, but it is hard to root 
 out old prejudices, and so I gave up this manner 
 of placing it. In chorus too I think it best to 
 place all four chorus voices on each side of the 
 estrade in double choruses it appeared to me a 
 matter of course, but in this too I met with un-
 
 137 
 
 willingness and opposition ! There is still another 
 position that I cannot understand, that is the 
 position of the Director in the Opera. If he would 
 do his task justice, he must be able to make him- 
 self felt on the stage, and at the same time in the 
 orchestra ; a glance or a wave of the hand is often 
 sufficient to assist the singer, be it in tempo or in 
 musical expression if he should accidentally lose 
 his way and how is that possible if the Director 
 has his stand not at the footlights of the stage (as 
 formerly) but at the edge of the orchestra (as 
 now)? There he can at most merely give the 
 orchestra the necessary hint, the artists on the 
 stage are entirely forsaken by the Director 
 that is left entirely to themselves. To be sure 
 in view of the demands made on the singer of 
 to-day (good memorizing, correct intonation, and 
 clear declamation) where singing, phrasing, and 
 technic and many other things are scarce given a 
 thought, the Director is not of importance or use 
 for the stage ! 
 
 What do you think of musical prodigies ?
 
 138 
 
 It is true that the most of our heroes of 
 music have been prodigies but their number is 
 still a very small one in comparison with the 
 numberless talented children who almost daily 
 appear, and of whom later nothing or very little is 
 known. These children generally exhibit astound- 
 ing musical talent from a very early age, but 
 there comes a time (with boys from the 15th to 
 the 20th year, girls from the 14th to the 17th 
 year) when the musical gift weakens or sleeps 
 altogether; and only those who are able to 
 cross this Rubicon, will then become real artists. 
 Of such the number is very small. 
 
 There is still another question, that interests 
 me very much, and about which I am not clear 
 What is the church style in music ? 
 
 "Das will ich Sie gleich sagen, mcine Gutste, 
 das weiss ich Sie selber nicht," (That I will tell 
 you at once, -my good friend, I don't know it 
 myself." ) After all how do you mean that, do 
 you speak of prayer set to music or of com- 
 positions with sacred subject or with sacred text ?
 
 139 
 
 Well, both. 
 
 It is not possible, in my opinion, to have one 
 church style for all the Christian world. The 
 southerner feels in prayer different from the 
 northerner, the Catholic other than the Protestant, 
 these again different from the orthodox, etc. To 
 me the singing of a choral in unison by the con- 
 gregation supported by the organ, as harmonic 
 l>ase, as it is done in the Protestant churches is 
 the most sympathetic, in a musical sense. Part 
 singing has already within itself even more the 
 character of an artistic performance, hence ceases 
 to be individual prayer but I can well under- 
 stand that the Catholic, for the splendor of his 
 service, requires Organ, Chorus, Solo, Orchestra, 
 etc.*) In the church compositions of our great 
 masters, it would be difficult to discover a stan- 
 dard or prescribed church style, it seems to me. 
 Take for example, the "Missa Papae Marcelli" 
 of Palestrina, the " Messe " in B-minor of Bach, 
 
 *) The Greek-orthodox service allows of no instrument, and 
 Is in musical expression merely of a choral (a capella) nature.
 
 140 
 
 and the "Missa Solemnis" of Beethoven, which 
 of the three is really in prescribed church style ? 
 or, instead of the Mass of Palestrina (since it is a 
 capella while the other two are with orchestra 
 accompaniment), the Requiem of Mozart, can we 
 speak here of a strict, recognized, prescribed 
 church style ? All these compositions are serious 
 in character, with sacred texts and of unusual 
 beauty, and that is all. Or ought the fugue and 
 the polyphonic treatment of the voices alone dis- 
 tinguish the church style in music ? or should 
 church style absolutely require the usual 
 
 A men, Hale m ja, Hosa iia, with 
 
 several measures of figuration on the vowel? 
 The reason that in Protestant countries Church 
 Music is musically more earnest than it is in. 
 Catholic countries is that in Latin countries 
 the Opera has influenced Church Music (that is 
 again only the unhealthy influence of the Vocal 
 Virtuoso on the composer), which it could not 
 do in Protestant countries, because there, and 
 even to-day, the pious Protestants abhor the
 
 141 
 
 theatre. I think it an error, however, to condemn 
 for that reason the "Stabat Mater" of Rossini 
 or the " Messe " of Verdi in Protestant countries. 
 The Protestant may indeed say : " J have a 
 different feeling " but not " that is bad, because it 
 is other than my feeling of worship" 
 
 The operatic and homophonic in these com- 
 positions is to be condemned at any rate, from a 
 purely artistic standpoint, is it not 1 
 
 Heaven is different in Palermo than in 
 Insterburg, and that explains very much. As 
 an example : A beautiful maiden of Palermo 
 throws herself upon her knees at the street corner 
 before an image of the Virgin Mary, and prays 
 "0 Virgin Mary, help me to win Beppo for my 
 husband, if thou dost I will offer thee my coral 
 
 necklace, if thou wilt not, then" such a 
 
 prayer, under such a sky, at such a shrine, I 
 cannot imagine set to music otherwise than with 
 a melody in allegro tempo in -f measure ; but 
 when a beautiful maiden of Insterburg turns to 
 God with her heart's desires, her humility, her
 
 142 
 
 earnestness and her contrition demand in musical 
 expression a melody in adagio tempo in |-, per- 
 haps in -f tempo. 
 
 Paradoxes again ! 
 
 Possible, but is true. 
 
 We were speaking though of a given Latin, 
 text, of a Mass, composed by musicians of differ- 
 ent religions. 
 
 And must not fail to consider therefore the 
 difference in their religious feeling, each accord- 
 ing to the clime, the training, the historical 
 character, the culture-epoch, the tradition, etc. 
 
 It is with that as with the art of painting : 
 a picture by Holbein or by Albrecht Diirer has 
 another character than the same picture painted 
 by Leonardo di Vinci or Rafael, or any other 
 Italian, and so too another character than the 
 same painted by Rubens, Rembrandt, etc. 
 
 You spoke in the beginning of the historical 
 events, state of culture, the age, echo and re- 
 echo, etc., in music, what connection have they 
 with the terrible events of our century ?
 
 143 
 
 You seem to wish to carry the question to- 
 the extreme, it could easily become comic in that 
 case, and still I hold firmly to my saying. Yes, 
 music is to me the echo and re-echo of all these 
 and though you may again call them para- 
 doxes, I can follow musically even the events of 
 our century. 
 
 Our century begins either with 1789, the 
 French Revolution (musically with Beethoven) 
 and the year 1815 is to be looked upon as the 
 close of the XVIII. century : Disappearance of 
 Xapoleon from the political horizon, the Restora- 
 tion, etc. (musically, the scholastic-virtuoso period, 
 Hummel, Moscheles, and others) nourishing of 
 modern philosophy (third period of Beethoven). 
 The July revolution of 1830, Fall of the Legitim- 
 ists, Raising of the son of Philip Egalite to the 
 throne, the Orleans dynasty, democratic and 
 constitutional principle in the foreground, mon- 
 archical principle in the background, 1848 in 
 sight (Berlioz), the Aeolian harp of the Polish 
 rebellion of 1831 (Chopin). Romantic altogether
 
 144 
 
 and a victory over the pseudo-classic (Schu- 
 mann), flourishing of all the arts and sciences 
 (Mendelssohn), the Triumph of the Bourgeoisie, 
 in the sense of material existence, a shield against 
 all disturbing elements of politics and culture 
 (Capellmeister music); Louis Napoleon becomes 
 Emperor (Liszt, the Virtuoso, becomes composer 
 of Symphonies and Oratorios) his reign (the 
 Operetta a branch of art); the German-Franco 
 War, Germany's unity, the freedom of Europe 
 resting on ten millions of soldiers; change in all 
 formerly accepted political principles (Wagner, 
 his music-drama, his art principles); the present 
 condition of Europe, the awaiting and seeking to 
 prevent a frightful collision, uncertainty, general 
 feeling of unstability in the politics of the day 
 (condition of music, foreboding, possibility of 
 downfall in the art of music, transition period, 
 longing for a genius) ; division and conflict of the 
 ever increasing political religious social parties 
 (representatives and defenders of all musical- 
 schools-classic, romantic, modern nihilist); striv-
 
 145 
 
 ing of diverse nationalities and races for auton- 
 omy, or federation, or political independence 
 (more and more striving for reflective nationalism 
 in music) and so on, 
 
 In such paradoxal flight I cannot possibly 
 folloAv you. 
 
 -But you must acknowledge that in all this a 
 certain affinity is not to be denied. 
 
 From all that I have heard from you I con- 
 clude that you cannot be happy in your profession 
 now, and I deplore it sincerely. What you 
 revere has been; what is you do not revere, and 
 thus you find yourself in complete opposition to 
 the reigning taste, to art critique, the cultivation 
 of music, the executive and creative, to musical 
 education, the modern views of art, the modern 
 art principles, in short to all connected with 
 music. Therefore it is easy to understand that 
 you with your criticisms, as your much lauded 
 Virtuoso with his technic, " break all bounds.'' 
 
 I feel that I shall not live long enough now 
 to enjoy the coming Bach or Beethoven, and that
 
 146 
 
 is sorrowful to me. My only solace is that I 
 may still have the same enthusiasm for an Organ 
 Prelude or Fugue for the Bach that was, for a 
 Sonata, a String Quartette or a Symphony of a 
 Beethoven that tvas, for a Song or Impromptu or 
 Moment Musicale of a Schubert that was; for a 
 Prelude or Nocturno or Polonaise or Mazurka of 
 a Chopin that was; for a national Opera by the 
 Glinka that was, to-day as ever. 
 
 I recognize the creation of to-day as an 
 advancement in the art and if it is, as you say, 
 only a period of transition, it interests me greatly 
 more than that which was. I hope most assuredly 
 to enjoy the future Bach or Beethoven, and to 
 delight thoroughly in his new art. 
 
 O happy being ! 
 
 After having accompanied Madame von 
 
 to her carriage, I returned to my studio and 
 remained standing there, meditating, whether it 
 might not be the musical G-otterdammerung that 
 is now breaking upon us. 
 
 H. A. HOST, PRINTER, 14 FRANKFORT ST., N. V.
 
 ML 
 MiO 
 
 R6 k 
 
 THE LIBRARY 
 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 
 Santa Barbara 
 
 THIS BOOK IS DUE ON THE LAST DATE 
 STAMPED BELOW. 
 
 APR 1 1 1987 
 
 RETURNED APR 2? 
 
 1987
 
 3 1205 00721 0600 
 
 A 000631 214 4