/ 
 
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 DEPARTMENT OF LABOURS/CANADA 
 
 HON. G. D. ROBERTSON, MINISTER OF LABOUR 
 
 BU 
 /_ 
 
 LLETIN No. 2. INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SERIES 
 
 Report of a Conference on 
 
 Industrial Relations 
 
 HELD AT OTTAWA 
 FEBRUARY 21st and 22nd, 1921 
 
 PRINTED BY THOMAS MULVEY, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST 
 EXCELLENT MAJESTY 
 OTTAWA 
 
 "^m^" AT 
 
 1935 
 B H
 
 1921 THE LABOUB GAZETTE 485 
 
 INTRODUCTION 
 
 The present bulletin comprises a report of the proceedings of a Conference 
 on the subject of Industrial Relations which was held in the Parliament Build- 
 ings, Ottawa, on February 21-22, 1921. This Conference was called by Senator 
 the Honourable G. D. Robertson, Minister of Labour, and was attended by 
 representatives of a number of the larger employing companies in Canada 
 which have established Joint Councils with their employees. The spokesmen 
 for the respective employers were for the most part company officers in charge 
 of industrial relations. The addresses dealt in the main with the experience 
 of Industrial Councils which had already been gained by these companies. Two 
 of the companies represented at the Conference have not yet established Joint 
 Councils but are understood to have the subject under consideration. In addition 
 to the delegates from the various Canadian companies in attendance at the Con- 
 ference, Mr. A. H. Young, of Chicago, Manager of Industrial Relations of the 
 International Harvester Company, and Mr. Cyrus Ching, of New York, Super- 
 visor of Industrial Relations of the United States Rubber Company, were also 
 present by invitation and participated in the proceedings of the Conference. 
 
 The present report of the proceedings is published in the belief that the 
 information presented will be of interest and service to other employers and 
 also to employees. 
 
 The following were in attendance at the Conference: Senator the Honour- 
 able G. D. Robertson, Minister of Labour, Mr. F. A. Acland, Deputy 
 Minister of Labour; Mr. Gerald H. Brown, Assistant Deputy Minister 
 of Labour, (Chairman); Messrs. Harry Hereford, Industrial Engineer; 
 B. McG. Quirk, T. A. Stevenson, and F. E. Harrison, of the Department of 
 Labour; Mr. A. H. Young, Manager of Industrial Relations, International 
 Harvester Company, Chicago; Mr. Cyrus Ching, Supervisor of Industrial 
 Relations, United States Rubber Company, New York; Mr. J. H. Coffey, Jr., 
 Factory Manager, Gutta-Percha and Rubber, Limited, Toronto ; Mr. F. L. Riggs, 
 Supervisor of Industrial Relations, Gutta-Percha and Rubber, Limited, Toronto ; 
 Mr. P. F. Sinclair, in Charge of Industrial Relations, Imperial Oil, Limited, 
 Toronto; Mr. G. L. Thompson, Imperial Oil, Limited, Toronto; Mr. F. J. 
 'Gernandt, General Superintendent, International Harvester Company of 
 Canada, Limited, Hamilton; Mr. F. T. Day, Secretary, Works' Council, Inter- 
 national Harvester Company of Canada, Limited, Hamilton; Mr. H. H. Sted- 
 man, Superintendent, Swift Canadian Company, Toronto; Mr. R. M. Olzendam, 
 Secretary, Department of Industrial Relations, Spanish River Pulp and Paper 
 Mills, Ltd., Sault Ste. Marie ; Mr. George Valentine, Assistant General Manager, 
 Massey-Harris Company, Limited, Toronto; Mr. Wills Maclachlan, Consulting
 
 486 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 Engineer, Toronto; Mr. Win. M. Gray, Vice-President and Assistant Manager, 
 Gray-Dort Motors, Ltd., Chatham; Mr. John H. Frye, in Charge of Industrial 
 Relations, Canadian Consolidated Rubber Company, Limited, Montreal; Mr. 
 J. D. Jones, General Manager, Algoma Steel Corporation, Sault Ste. Marie; 
 Mr Frank J. McGue, Superintendent of Industrial Services Department, Algoma 
 Steel Corporation, Sault Ste. Marie; Mr. W. H. Winter, General Superintendent 
 of Plant, Bell Telephone Company of Canada, Montreal; Mr. E. Blake Robert- 
 son, Secretary, Canadian Manufacturers' Association, Ottawa; Mr. J. Clarke 
 Reilly, Secretary, Association of Canadian Building and Construction Indus- 
 tries, Ottawa,
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUB GAZETTE 487 
 
 Report of Conference on Industrial Relations 
 
 Introductory Address by the Minister of Labour 
 
 Gentlemen, may I express my very deep appreciation of the trouble you 
 have taken and the kindness you have displayed in accepting the invitation of 
 the Department of Labour. I shall not make any extended remarks. I shall 
 simply outline briefly what prompted us to extend the invitation to you to come 
 here to confer with the officials of the Department of Labour. 
 
 The idea or desire of promoting more harmonious relations between em- 
 ployers and their workmen is not new in Canada or in many other countries; but 
 during the period of the late war I think it became apparent to every one that it 
 was absolutely imperative to the success of the undertaking in which the allied 
 countries were engaged at that time, that special efforts should be made along 
 this line. I know that early in 1918 this question first began to receive special 
 consideration at the hands of the Canadian Government, and during that year 
 some substantial progress was made in the way of at least laying the foundation 
 for better relations and a better understanding between employers and workmen. 
 
 My observations and experience indicate most clearly that unless there is 
 confidence between the two groups it is difficult if not impossible for an industry 
 to succeed as it should and would succeed if that confidence existed. Modern 
 industry, I think, to a very great extent realizes this, and as a result of keen 
 observation and keen business foresight many employers of labour have come to 
 the conclusion that this line of action is desirable from the standpoint of all 
 concerned and is mutually beneficial. 
 
 In 1919, the Government of Canada appointed a Royal Commission on 
 Industrial Relations, of which Chief Justice Mathers of Winnipeg was made 
 Chairman. That Commission travelled throughout the entire country, and gave 
 an opportunity to every person and every interest, whether they represented 
 capital or labour or the consuming public, to come before them and express their 
 views on industrial questions. One of the recommendations of that Com- 
 mission was the promotion and encouragement of the establishment of joint 
 industrial councils, with a view to promoting harmony and better relations 
 between employers and employees. 
 
 In 1919, in keeping with one of the recommendations made by the Com- 
 mission, a conference was called at Ottawa which was attended by some 200 
 gentlemen representing employers and workmen and the different provincial 
 governments, municipalities, and so on. Some five days were spent, I think 
 profitably, in discussing a number of important problems, such as the eight -hour 
 day, unemployment insurance, industrial councils, and other subjects with which 
 you are probably familiar. It was the general opinion of both the employers and 
 the representatives of labour who attended that meeting that the conference had 
 been useful, and they expressed the hope that it might be held annually. In 1920, 
 as the fall approached, there were reasons w r hy it did not seem possible to have 
 another such conference: one was that, because of the turn in the tide, prices were 
 beginning to drop, a business depression having set in, and a good many employers 
 were feeling the stress and pressure of the changed conditions, and, on the other 
 hand, labour was perhaps inclined to look forward with a great deal of appre- 
 hension to what was going to occur in the immediate future. So it was felt by 
 some that perhaps it was not an opportune time for the holding of another con-
 
 488 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MABCH, 1921 
 
 ference. Notwithstanding this, opinion was divided, and the policy of the 
 Department being not to attempt to force its views or its desires upon anybody, 
 but to attempt to be useful, to give if possible in promoting a plan that might be 
 mutually advantageous and acceptable to those directly interested, and instead 
 of calling a general conference such as might perhaps have resulted in some 
 controversial discussion, which would seem to be undesirable or would perhaps 
 shake that feeling of confidence and mutual respect that was so well established 
 at our 19i9 meeting, and still desiring to make progress along the lines of pro- 
 moting goodwill between the workmen and their employers, we conceived the 
 idea of calling together representatives of those industries which had taken a 
 sufficiently deep interest in this most important question to personally and 
 individually establish some form of industrial council within their own industries . 
 
 We are not unselfish in extending this invitation to you, and I may frankly 
 tell you why: the Department of Labour has had no great e\p3ri3nce in the past, 
 and therefore does not feel that it or its officials can be regarded as final authorities 
 upon the best methods of procedure or the most acceptable form of industrial 
 council in any industry. The Department in the person of the Assistant Deputy 
 Minister, Mr. Gerald H. Brown, has given special attention to the subject and 
 Mr. E. McG. Quirk, of Montreal, who was an employer of labour for many years 
 and has given evidence of being a broad, fair-minded, progressive man, together 
 with Mr. T. A. Stevenson of Toronto, who has been a progressive labour leader 
 for a number of years and who, during the war period, rendered valuable service 
 to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, have been delegated to 
 act as the Department's travelling representatives to give information to em- 
 ployers and to labour people throughout the country concerning Joint Indus- 
 trial Councils. 
 
 These two gentlemen, while familiar with labour problems generally, have 
 not had any great experience as yet in connection with this particular matter; 
 therefore, we felt it would be useful to them and to the Department and we 
 hoped useful to you, gentlemen to bring you together, so that the officials of the 
 Department might get the benefit of your experience. In addition, the Depart- 
 ment has an efficiency engineer of wide industrial experience in the person of Mr. 
 Hereford. He has given special attention to this subject and has given assistance 
 in connection with its problems. 
 
 I think, perhaps, I have outlined the purpose of our extending the invitation 
 to you to be here to-day. 1 am hopeful that as a result cf your deliberations, as a 
 result of the expressions of experiences and views which you severally and col- 
 lectively entertain, that all of you, as well as the officials of the Department, will 
 feel that it has been profitable for us to have a conference of this sort. I think 
 the missionary work, along proper, logical, sane lines, which can follow a meeting 
 of this sort, will create an interest in the minds of many other large employers of 
 labour in Canada in this subject, by reason of their coming in contact with you 
 gentlemen, and when they realize that the firms with which you are employed 
 deem it of sufficient importance to give it attention, it will set moving in their 
 minds the advisability of taking a more active interest in the problem than they 
 may have done up to the present time. 
 
 In addition to having their Canadian representative with us, we are espe- 
 cially favoured to-day in that Mr. Young, of the International Harvester Com- 
 pany, has come all the way from Chicago, to attend this conference; and I am 
 sure the work which that enormous concern has been carrying on in the United 
 States, as well as the information which Mr. Young has gained from the observ- 
 ation and experience of the operations of other large firms in that country, will 
 be of great interest to us all. We are indebted to Mr. Young and to the Inter- 
 national Harvester Company for sending him here.
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 4gg 
 
 It is not my purpose to take up your time at any great length. Mr. Brown, 
 the Assistant Deputy Minister, has prepared some line of procedure as to the 
 questions that it may be proper to bring before the meeting. We shall be glad 
 to have you continue your session so long as you think it useful, and the officials 
 of the Department of Labour will co-operate with you during your stay, and I 
 certainly shall be here as much of my time as possible, because I appreciate your 
 coming and want to gain the full advantage of all the information which it is 
 possible to obtain from you. 
 
 Before sitting down, may I make one observation. I do not do it by way of 
 any desire to create alarm, but we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that during the 
 last few years in particular, there has been a growing sentiment among the wage- 
 earners in all countries which is not conducive to harmonious relations with em- 
 ployers, nor to confidence on the part of the owners and investors of capital. 
 When we look back over the last 40 or 50 years we see the spasmodic attempts 
 that have been made in various parts of the world by revolutions or by the use of 
 force, to confiscate property and take charge of industry. Heretofore, it has 
 never been regarded seriously or as being a world menace; but to-day, as never 
 before, there is an organized, world-wide effort, to bring into existence a situation 
 such as has been the dream of some of our socialist theorists for years gone by. 
 The socialist theory, as enunciated by Karl Marx, has, however, proved too slow 
 a way of bringing about the millenium, and therefore within the past two years 
 there has been set up what is known as the Third International, an organization 
 which proposes by force of arms to destroy capital as rapidly as circumstances 
 will permit. They think that before that can be done the international trade 
 union movement throughout the world, which has for its object co-operation 
 between the workman and the employer, must be destroyed. 
 
 I have at my office a volume which gives in detail the proceedings of the 
 Second International Conference of the Communists which was held in Petrograd 
 during July and August last, and which probably will become a public document 
 before long. When it does so, the people of this country will realize very forcibly, 
 that throughout this country, in many of our industrial centres to-day, the mis- 
 sionaries of that movement are carrying on their propaganda and are attempting 
 in every way possible to discredit our existing institutions, industrial, political, ana 
 religious. There never was a time in the history of this country, in my humble 
 opinion, when it was so necessary as now that the sane thinking, patriotic 
 citizens of this country either employers, or workmen, or anyone else should 
 see to it that nothing in ational and foolish occurs, but rather that in the interest 
 of Canada itself as well as in the interest of the individual and of industries, we 
 should seek to promote and inspire confidence instead of destroying it. 
 
 I am sure that you gentlemen who are giving your services to promote better 
 relations between capital and labour have probably seen, even more clearly than 
 I, the importance of what I have briefly tried to convey to you. I hope as a result 
 of our meeting here that there may come a greater growth of confidence between 
 the interests of capital, so-called, or those who have money invested in industry, 
 and those who invest their services, because without both, neither can prosper. 
 
 I shall be glad now to receive suggestions or nominations for Chairman 
 of your meeting during the session here. 
 
 It was moved by Mr. Young, seconded by Mr. Olzendam, that Mr. Brown 
 take the Chair. 
 
 (THE MINISTER CONTINUING) : I wonder, gentlemen, if we might not 
 with profit spend this morning's session in a general discussion, assuming 
 that at least one gentleman from each of the industries represented will briefly 
 outline his experience and observation of the industry that he represents?
 
 490 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 I think that information, as far as you feel free to give it, would be of very 
 great interest to all of us. If there is no objection to that proposal, inasmuch 
 as Mr. Young represents a very large industry, an industry that is an important 
 one in Canada as well as in the United States, I am sure we would all be deeply 
 interested in hearing from him as to the experience of the International Har- 
 vester Company and the success or otherwise which has accompanied their 
 efforts in industrial council activities. 
 
 Address of Mr. A. H. Young, Manager of Industrial Relations, 
 International Harvester Co., Chicago. 
 
 Mr Chairman and gentlemen, in the first place, I think I express the 
 "Unanimous sentiment of the group here when I say it was a very fortunate 
 circumstance that delayed the conference from the fall of 1920 to the present 
 date, if by that delay we are gaining your presence. As I listened to your 
 statement I thought how fortunate Canada was to have as the director of her 
 labour portfolio a man who has come from the ranks and who has just 
 such a common horse sense view of things as you have. I am reminded of 
 Cyrus Ching's definition of horse sense, which he says, after all, is "stable 
 thinking. ' ' 
 
 The International Harvester industrial council plan will be two years old 
 on March 12th next. The basis of it is a works council at each of the plants. 
 The works council is composed of a number of elected employee representatives 
 and a not greater number of selected management representatives. The plant 
 was arbitrarily divided into geographical districts so that the various crafts and 
 shops might be represented. An arbitrary basis of representation was adopted 
 one representative for each two to three hundred employees in the district. The 
 reason for such an arbitrary arrangement was that two of our largest plants 
 employ nearly 6,000 men and would have about 25 representatives, and when 
 we considered the addition of an equal number of management representatives it 
 was thought that a greater number than that would be unwieldy. At Chatham 
 where we have only 200 employees, our ratio is much less than that, but in no 
 plant are there less than five representatives. 
 
 ; Employee representatives must have had one year's continuous Company 
 service ; they must be at least twenty-one years old and citizens of the country ; 
 no employee having the power to hire or discharge is eligible; all employees 
 below the grade of assistant foremen have the right to vote, irrespective of length 
 of employment, citizenship, age or sex. The management group cannot be 
 greater in unmber than the group of employee representatives. The chair- 
 man is the manager of industrial relations, or someone appointed by him. A 
 secretary is appointed by the superintendent. Neither of these officers has more 
 than a parliamentary function in the council. 
 
 The function of the works council is to shape the Company's policy in all 
 matters of mutual interest wages, hours, and matters which are regarded as 
 controversial, as well as non-controversial subjects. It votes on the unit ballot 
 plan, safeguarding the fifty-fifty arrangement for which the council stands. A 
 majority of the employee representatives determine their action as a whole, and 
 they cast a single ballot for that side. A majority of the management repre- 
 sentatives determine their action as a whole, and they cast a single ballot for 
 that side, thus no one has the power of casting a deciding ballot in such a case. 
 This is a guarantee of absolute equality. 
 
 6
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 491 
 
 After the council agrees, its recommendations are forwarded to the super- 
 intendent for execution. The execution lies wholly with the management, but 
 if the manner of execution is open to question, then the matter goes again to the 
 works council, so you will see that it has both a legislative and judicial function. 
 
 There has never been any misunderstanding from the outset. The super- 
 intendent and his staff manage the plant, but they do it on a straight fifty-fifty 
 basis; if any question is raised its determination lies with the works council. 
 If the council deadlocks it is possible to re-open the discussion, and perhaps an . 
 alternative may be suggested. If it is still deadlocked there is direct appeal to the 
 highest executive officer, the president. 
 
 There is a time limit placed upon the president within which to arrive at a 
 decision ten days and the decision arrived at is put into effect within a further 
 period of five days. 
 
 A general council may be called wherein the representation is made up of 
 at least two employee representatives from each plant elected by the employee 
 representatives in the local council, or one for each thousand employees. A 
 general council meets at the call of the president, with a number of company 
 officers not greater than the total number of employee representatives, and it 
 functions as a works council except that its decision applies to all the plants re- 
 presented in such a council. The employee representatives have a right to 
 recess and withdraw and act secretly. Any one of them can return to his plant 
 and discuss any question with the works council or with the employee repre- 
 sentatives alone, or with the rank and file if he so desires, and then come back to 
 the postponed council meeting, having had the benefit of direct consultation with 
 his constituents. 
 
 If the president is unable to settle satisfactorily by his own action, or through 
 a general council, any question referred to him, arbitration may be had by mutual 
 agreement. It was thought desirable to make no restrictions and to take nothing- 
 away from the rights presently enjoyed by the employees; therefore, we adopted 
 the plan of arbitration only in the event of mutual agreement between the men 
 and the management. 
 
 If arbitration is agreed upon, it must be before a single disinterested non- 
 partisan arbitrator. If no such person can be selected, each side selects one and 
 the two select a third. The majority of the arbitrators rule, and their decision 1 
 may be made retroactive. 
 
 I think the most significant statement I can make with reference to our 
 experience is this: we began operating nearly two years ago, and at that time 19 
 of the plants in this country and in the States adopted the plan, only one re- 
 jecting it. Since then three other plants have accepted it two of them industrial 
 railroads owned by the Harvester Company, and the third a mill which had been 
 burned down and resumed operations just a year ago. At the time when the 
 council plan was submitted to secret ballots in that mill there were only 14 
 negative votes against the plan out of 250, showing a growing faith in the plan 
 on the part of the employees. In nearly two years we have had 19 councils, and 
 latterly 22, meeting regularly once a month and many times in special meeting. 
 With a single exception they have agreed on all questions brought before them. 
 
 A year ago last June, at the Wisconsin Steel plant in Chicago, the Council 
 came to a deadlock. Three days later the president met the representatives and 
 made a compromise proposition. They withdrew for caucus and returned and 
 said they found themselves unanimously in favour of accepting his proposition, 
 but before doing so wished a recess of three days to consult their constituents! 
 They consulted their constituents and then returned and_said that every man
 
 492 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 had thought it a fair proposition, and it was put into effect and has resulted in an 
 increased morale very definitely expressed in an increased output in that shop. 
 
 I believe that the most significant fact in our experience is that this frank 
 exchange of views this getting around the council table and talking over 
 matters of mutual interest before there is a crystallization of thought, has re- 
 sulted in perfect agreement with this one exception. 
 
 Our council plan includes two points common to most other plans. One is 
 the guarantee of no discrimination because of membership or non-membership 
 in any labour organization, or because of race, sex, religious or political affiliations ; 
 and the second is the guarantee of independent action. If at any time any works 
 council member feels that he is discriminated against because of his actions, 
 as such, he may appeal directly to the president of the company for adjudication 
 of his grievance. If he is not satisfied with that, and if he requests it, he must 
 receive the benefit of arbitration before a single, disinterested, non-partisan 
 arbitrator. \^e have never had such an appeal. There has never been a sug- 
 gestion from an employee representative that he had been discriminated against. 
 And yet I think it is all important that we should have such a guarantee, becauss, 
 after all, we have found that our problem is not so much with the employee 
 representatives or the council or the management representatives. 
 
 I think the advantage that has come to the management representatives 
 through their direct intercourse with the representatives of the employees has 
 been of far greater value to the company than it has been to the employees; but, 
 if the plan is to be wholly successful, it is necessary not only to carry the works 
 council into agreement but also for the employee representatives to carry their 
 constituencies with them. That point has received a great deal of thought and 
 care. We have made the position of works council-man dignified and important, 
 and have enabled him to meet his constituents and consult with them so that 
 the decisions arrived at in council may carry the shop. 
 
 I do not think any official of the Harvester Company would say that our 
 plan is an unqualified success or a panacea or the ultimate solution; but we feel 
 that it is a means to a desirable end and that we are on the right track. 
 
 For the first year and a half employment was continuous, wages were 
 steadily increasing, and any matters which came up were easy of adjustment. 
 Recently a change has come. The manufacturing programme has had to be 
 decreased. We are now talking of shortened hours and decreased production, 
 and with the general decline in the cost of living we will soon be face to face with 
 the proposition of talking decreased wages as well. These things have been 
 frankly discussed in council, and thus far there has been no indication of a dis- 
 continuance of the happy relations which have existed in the past. Never- 
 theless, I think before we would care to state that the works council plan was an 
 unqualified success, we would want to complete the cycle on the downward as 
 well as the upward trend. There is no cloud on the horizon, no fly in the oint- 
 ment; it seems an assured fact that we can go through the cycle, because, after 
 ah 1 , changes are necessary, and if the full facts can be shown to the employee 
 representatives, and through them to the employees, there will be such an under- 
 standing of the matter as will lead to acceptance. 
 
 I note your allusion, Sir, to the situation in Russia, which is a 'matter of 
 intimate concern to all of us. My own thought is this: while the Russian people 
 three or four years ago may possibly have been as well cared for under the Czarist 
 regime as they are-to-day, yet they did not have the knowledge. They had 
 things done for them and with them, but they had not themselves participated 
 in the determination of their condition, and were not satisfied. It is a principle 
 of basic psychology that we are only mildly interested in what others are doing 
 
 8
 
 MARCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 
 
 for us, or with us; but we are most interested in what we aref doing for ourselves 
 and by ourselves. If the Russian people could have arrived by actual participa- 
 tion at the condition in which they were under the Czarist regime, we would not 
 have had the break which occurred. I believe that application of the works 
 council idea is going to be a great factor in protecting our country from any 
 revolution, any class conflict. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: I wish that every employer and wage-earner 
 in Canada could have heard what we have listened to in the last twenty minutes. 
 I am sure it would have been a profit to them and to Canada-. We are indebted 
 to Mr. Young for his kindness. 
 
 There are a number of gentlemen here representing different industries, and 
 I want them to feel free to say anything they wish in connection with their own 
 experience. 
 
 Address of Mr. Wm. M. Gray, Vice-president and Asst. General Manager, Gray-Dort 
 
 Motors, Limited, Chatham. 
 
 Mr. Chairman: The attention of the management of Gray-Dort Motors 
 Ltd., was first attracted to the action of Industrial Councils, Works Councils, 
 Industrial Relationship Committees, etc., through reading various reports, from 
 time to time, of the apparent success of some of the various industries who had 
 adopted this plan in the States; and at a later date, a practical demonstration 
 was given in our own town by one of the branch American industries which was 
 located locally, adopting the plan in their plant, with the result that after a very 
 careful and thorough investigation, we decided to adopt the plan of incorporating 
 the best suggestions from those that had been brought to our attention. We 
 were successful in this respect in getting a good set of by-laws, which appeared 
 interesting; and therefore published in a special Christmas announcement to our 
 employees our intention to at once adopt this plan. 
 
 Contrary to the usual procedure, we did not ask our employees to vote 
 whether or not they should adopt same, but simply stated that we intended 
 putting it into effect. A set of by-laws was immediately published, in concise 
 book form, passed out to those in the organization, and the plan became operative. 
 
 The first nominations were called for Friday, January 9th, 1920. 
 
 At that time, the original plan called for the election of one representative 
 on the employees' side, from each of the four divisions or plants, one executive 
 to appear on the board for each of the employees elected, a secretary and a chair- 
 man; the secretary and chairman having no voting power in the meeting. 
 
 Following the nomination, the election was held on January 13th. There 
 was not a great deal of enthusiasm displayed, and in lots of cases, the plan was 
 not welcomed any too much but was looked upon by the majority with a good 
 deal of indifference. 
 
 The first meeting was held on Friday, February 6, 1920, at H p.m. The 
 chairman explained in detail, the reason for the Works Council and its future 
 actions, stating that its procedure would be parliamentary, and that those making 
 application to it for any redress or grievance, at any time, would be granted its 
 full protection and immunity, from any ill-will or spite which might arise from 
 petty executives, through having complaints lodged direct with the Council. 
 
 At this meeting, also, the ballot was cast to determine who should be the 
 expiring members for the future term, as this was necessary according to the 
 by-laws. 
 
 9
 
 494 THE LABOTJB GAZETTE MABOB, 1921 
 
 A special meeting was called for February 26, 1920, at which a number of 
 -changes were inaugurated, one being that the by-laws were changed to include 
 American citizens in our franchise rights, so they could become eligible to be 
 members of the Council. This action was taken, through their being just as 
 loyal and efficient in our service, though previously debarred by the word ' 'foreig- 
 ner" in our by-laws. 
 
 Also, our main plant was given permission to increase its employees' members 
 by two, as they were not adequately represented, according to the number em- 
 ployed in that plant. 
 
 In April, a very serious fight for supremacy developed between the union 
 forces who were organized in the district, and the Works Council. Numerous 
 interesting discussions were held from time to time, and members of the union 
 forces were invited to attend the Works Council meetings; and the Works 
 Council had to put up a real fight, battling for its very existence. But, omitting 
 further details, we were fairly successful in passing a resolution endorsing the 
 Works Council, which resolution was as follows: 
 
 That the employees of the Gray-Dort Motors Ltd. back their Works Council with their 
 unqualified support for the purpose of giving it an opportunity to demonstrate its ability to 
 cope with all industrial situations, such try-out to be at least for a period of one year from its 
 inception, January 1st, 1920, to the absolute exclusion of all other organizations. This 
 resolution carried by ten for and one against. 
 
 In August, a special meeting was called, at which an explanation was given 
 by the management, of the forthcoming industrial crisis; and after a great deal 
 of interesting data had been presented, the Works Council unanimously passed a 
 resolution which is as follows, and which is self-explanatory: 
 
 That the Company reduce their building schedule to 15 cars per day. That a general 
 reduction of 5 per cent on all existing piece work and day work rates be made with the excep- 
 tion that all day rates of 50c. or under remain as at present, also the Superintendents at their 
 discretion to adjust the higher piece work prices. This is to be effective September 1, 1920. 
 
 At the September meeting, it was found that a great deal of the time of our 
 Works Council members was taken up by complaints which were sometimes 
 presented to them during working hours by the other employees; therefore, the 
 management decided that, in order that no personal sacrifices be made, in carrying 
 out the routine duties, each member receive the sum of $5 per month as an 
 indemnity against such lost time, which they received monthly thereafter. 
 
 The question was brought up as to the best time of ths day to hold the 
 meetings. The meetings were originally held in the evenings; they were changed 
 to the afternoon, following dinner, and then back again to the evening; and at 
 the present time they are being held between five and six-thirty in the afternoon. 
 Up to the present, this is found to be the most practical time and suits the men 
 best as they do not have to come back after sapper, and they are still quite able 
 to accomplish their work, as the factory closes at five o'clock. In cases of any 
 special quantity of work to be taken up, it is necessary, of coarse, to revert to the 
 evening meeting. 
 
 There are of course a great many details that come in the activities of the 
 Works Council, which are very petty in lots of ways, and sometimes try sorely 
 the patience of those in charge. But if these are met fairly and squarely, reasoned 
 out and explained, there is yet to come, in our experience, a condition that we 
 cannot face, because the most surprising thing of all is that most of the things 
 brought up at these meetings were just as much, if not more, to the banaat 
 of the management than to the men. 
 
 10
 
 MAEOH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 495 
 
 The following are a few of the things which have been handled jby the 
 Council: Numerous times improved tools and labor saving devices have been 
 suggested by the Works Council. The pay days were changed from bi-monthly 
 to every alternate Friday. Preference was given to employees laid off at one 
 plant, and seeking work at another plant, under the same management. Girls 
 were protected from working overtime, by the installation of additional machines. 
 Considerable saving made in scrap material, which was formerly wasted. Safety- 
 First Committee did valuable work in the improvement of dangerous machinery. 
 The Housing question was investigated. A Sick Benefit Association was formed. 
 A Welfare Division was inaugurated. A wage reduction resolution was passed 
 by the Council. Minimum rates were set by the Council. Ventilation in bad 
 parts of the factory was improved. These, briefly, are some of the bigger acti- 
 vities that the Council have undertaken in the past. ^ 
 
 I have explained the history and operation of the Gray-Dort Works Council 
 up to the present time, and the majority of the employees now stand back ot it 
 with their utmost support. It is not a panacea for all ills, it is not a miracle worker; 
 but it is an excellent plan to bind an organization together, as nothing else will, and 
 and help to reach that goal which labourers, manufacturers and employers 
 would like to arrive at some day, namely, an ideal working condition. And, it 
 attempts to reach this condition, not so much by battling with the condition, as 
 by trying to remove the cause that made the condition. 
 
 In addition to our own, there are two or three other industries in Chatham 
 that have works councils. Our Chamber of Commerce have had the foresight to see 
 the benefit of works councils, and have formed an Industrial Relations Committee. 
 This committee is the final court of appeal. If we cannot agree in our works 
 council, we can take the matter in dispute to the Industrial Relations Committee 
 of the Chamber of Commerce, which is composed of four of the directors of the 
 Chamber of Commerce, and four of the plural (workers) members, who are given 
 their membership by vote of the workmen in the different industries in the city. 
 This committee is doing a valuable work. They canvassed our city a short time 
 ago with a view of starting every manufacturer along this line. They were 
 successful, I believe, in getting almost sixty per cent of the large industries 
 signed up, and some have already adopted the scheme. This committee is doing 
 a very valuable work from the Chamber of Commerce standpoint towards 
 bettering conditions in our city. 
 
 I mention that because I feel that it is somewhat of an innovation and im- 
 provement. It provides the arbitrator, which so many of us would like to have, in 
 case we come to the point of needing one. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: Are your employees organized? Are they 
 members of the various trade unions ? 
 
 MR. GRAY: I should judge that probably 35 per cent of them are organized 
 in what they call the Aircraft and Automobile Union. 
 
 Address of Mr. George Valentine, Assistant General Manager, Massey-Harris Co., Ltd., 
 
 Toronto 
 
 The Company which I represent has had an experience with Industrial 
 Councils of a slightly shorter duration than that of the International Harvester 
 Company and which has just been reported by Mr. Young. We have four 
 councils, one representing each of four factories. They have been in operation 
 since May of 1919. It might be considered that they came into being at a rather 
 
 ii
 
 496 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 trying time just on the eve of the May-Day strike of that year. For some 
 months previous to the formation of our Councils, our Directors and heads of 
 departments had been working on the problem of the formation of a Constitution 
 for councils. We had before us the Whitley and Colorado plans also the plans 
 that had been adopted by a number of industries. 
 
 I believe we paid the plan of the International Harvester Company the 
 greatest compliment in that we adopted more features from it than from any of 
 the other plans. We, however, first wrote to the International Harvester Co. 
 telling them what we proposed to do and they very graciously replied advising- 
 that we were entirely welcome. Our plan or constitution of our Council, there- 
 fore, very closely approximates theirs and is along the lines of the Colorado 
 plan. 
 
 When our scheme was ready for adoption we had printed copies of the 
 proposed constitution placed in the hands of each employee, and the employees 
 were asked to elect their delegates to the councils. They did so. The con- 
 stitution as originally drawn up was adopted, though since then a few minor 
 changes have been made. For instance, at the first meeting of the Toronto 
 council the elected members advised that they felt it would be a good thing to 
 have a provision for notice of motions so that each councillor would be advised 
 as to the matters that would come up for consideration at each meeting and 
 would be prepared to discuss these matters intelligently. This change to Con- 
 stitution was adopted. It has worked equally well either from the employees r 
 or the Company's point of view. 
 
 The Constitution of our councils as originally adopted provided that only 
 Canadian and British citizens were eligible for elections as councillors. We 
 worked on that basis for a year and a half, but last autumn we received a 
 notice from the elected men of our Toronto council to the effect that they 
 desired to have that restriction removed. At the same time the elected men of 
 the Toronto council also served notice of motion to the effect that they desired 
 to have the constitution amended so that any two years of service in the Com- 
 pany would qualify an employee for election on the council. Both of these 
 questions were thoroughly discussed, and while there was some sentimental 
 desire to have the restrictions as to Canadian and British citizenship remain, 
 it was finally decided that it would be entirely safe to leave to the judgment of 
 the employees the matter of suitability of candidates elected, and so both motions 
 carried. 
 
 Both of these amendments and in fact also the amendment previously 
 referred to, that re notice of motions, were adopted by the other three councils 
 as well. 
 
 When our councils were formed, I had the honour to be elected chairman 
 of the Toronto council. I do not think it would be too much to say that the 
 elected men came to the first meeting in a spirit of watchful waiting. This 
 probably to some extent was because of the unsettled times. We were then in 
 the midst of the May-Day strike above referred to. It did not take long, how- 
 ever, for that spirit to pass away and within a few months the chairman of the 
 elected section made a statement in the meeting that he and his colleagues who 
 had had an opportunity of hearing the policy of the Company enunciated by 
 the chairman and of listening to the views of the appointed members expressed 
 in debates, were quite convinced of the fairness of the intention of the Company 
 and its representatives. Their difficulty was to get that feeling across to their 
 constituents who had not such opportunities as they. 
 
 12
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 497 
 
 With a view to helping that condition a little, we have a stenographer on 
 hand at each meeting who takes the discussions as nearly verbatim as possible. 
 The formal motions and reports etc. are recorded on the Minute Book but in 
 addition we have the more amplified, if not verbatim, report published for the 
 use of our employees. 
 
 At first our councillors advised that they had difficulties with their con- 
 stituents when they returned to the shop after a meeting unless they had gained 
 some concession for said constituents. That difficulty has gradually dis- 
 appeared and the elected men, as well as the appointed men now more fully 
 appreciate their dual responsibilities and there has been a lot of co-operative work 
 done on both sides of the council. Of course industrial conditions at the moment 
 are very different from those which prevailed when our council was first 
 organized and our men now, I think, recognize that if they can hold their own 
 and not lose any concession previously granted, they are doing pretty well. 
 
 Our experience has been that the elected men, the employee representatives, 
 have been more than fair in their attitude. As an instance I might mention that 
 we on one occasion had to change the foremanship of a department. The pre- 
 vious foreman had been promoted. Some of the men in that department came 
 to the superintendent to advise that if a certain man whose name had been 
 suggested were to be appointed they would go on strike. The Superintendent 
 advised that the appointment of this man had already been made. He asked 
 what was the matter with the man and the answer was that they were told he 
 was a slave driver. The Superintendent replied "who says so or what do 
 you know about him from actual knowledge?" They could only repeat that he 
 was said to be a slave driver. They were apparently not in a reasonable mood 
 that morning and so went on strike. The employee representatives of their 
 council when they heard what had happened, were quite annoyed with the men 
 of that department for having gone on strike without consulting their repre- 
 sentatives on the council. These councillors took it upon themselves to round 
 the men up and to reason with them. They spent the better part of half a day 
 on this, the Company not being at all represented. 
 
 After a good deal of discussion they asked the Superintendent to. join them. 
 It was shown that the new foreman was a very fair man and one that had gone 
 out of his way to assist cases of workmen in distress. In support of the claim 
 that he was not a harsh or unfair man it was pointed out that the employees in 
 the department of which he had previously been foreman, were ready to come 
 over and to help him out on the new job if there was to be any trouble. To make 
 a long story short, the men who had gone on strike receded from their position, 
 and since that time everything has been extremely harmonious in the depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Like the International Harvester Company, we have the panel system, 
 though, as a matter of fact we have only used it once. On that occasion the 
 employees' section were not able to carry their own panel. The men who had 
 moved and seconded the motion were unwilling to drop it and it was taken to 
 vote with the above result. Apart from that one occasion every vote has been 
 in the form of committee of the whole. 
 
 Like Mr. Young, I do not think we have reached the ultimate. There is 
 one thing, however, that I have felt from watching our council operate, and 
 that is that it carries with it a very decided indirect benefit to the employees, 
 a greater benefit in fact than most of the direct ones, but one which is not always 
 recognized. I mean by this that every Company is, so to speak, at the mercy of 
 
 13
 
 498 THE LABOUB GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 its foreman or its agents or those who administer its policy, and is neld account- 
 able for the acts of these foremen etc. To the employee the foreman is the 
 Company. Every one of our foremen and superintendents now recognizes that 
 if his act will not stand investigation it may and probably will come before the 
 Council and so almost unconsciously they are more careful than they otherwise 
 would be not to act arbitrarily. This is a great advantage not only to the men but 
 to the Company. Our Councils have provided a means of communication between 
 the Company and the men which it would be difficult to have otherwise provided, 
 and I have no hesitation in saying that our Councils have earned their place. I 
 do not think they are a panacea or that they are a cure for all ills, but from our 
 experience I have not any hesitation in saying that they are a step forward, 
 and I have had personal knowledge from the watching of our Councils in action. 
 
 Our Company is somewhat smaller than the I. H. Company most companies 
 are and so in our constitutions we consequently have a smaller number of men 
 composing the elective divisions. "We have some women employees. We formed 
 them into a separate voting division so that they would always be sure of having 
 a representative. 
 
 It has been suggested on one or two occasions that possibly our Councils 
 were not worth while; that they were not so appreciated by many of our work- 
 men. We felt that the elections which took place last December would provide 
 a pretty good indication of how the men felt on the matter of the worth of the 
 Council. These elections I am glad to say were very closely contested. In one 
 Department we had a triple tie, but none of the three men would on any account 
 consider standing back in favour of the others. We had to have another election 
 to break the tie. 
 
 Address of Mr. Wills Maclachlan, Consulting Engineer, Toronto. 
 
 I do not know that there is much that I can add to what has been said before. 
 I have had the pleasure of designing some of these plans, but hardly of operating 
 with them, except primarily in accident prevention committees and work of that 
 kind. Possibly an account of the launching of what is now a nation-wide move- 
 ment in the building industries might be of interest to you. I well remember, 
 almost two years ago now, being asked to see what I could do in the building 
 trades in Toronto, with the idea of bringing the representatives of the employees 
 and the representatives of the employers together. 
 
 Upon investigating the question I found that there were four groups of em- 
 ployers the general contractors, the electrical workers, the plumbers, and the 
 painters the general contractors, of course, being the largest group. I found 
 also on the employees' side that there were 19 different unions having a builders' 
 league with an executive of five men. Both of these sides had been dealing with 
 each other as organizations; in other words, the unions were recognized by the 
 employers' associations. I worked on the idea of calling together two repre- 
 sentatives of the general contractors, one from each of the other groups on the 
 employers' side, and six executives of the Toronto Building Trades League. 
 They met on the 17th of March in that year, and at that time I do not think they 
 were very hopeful of much good coming out of the conference. Within two weeks 
 they had a council. They suggested that I should be the chairman of it, and I 
 suggested that thy should get an outsider who would have more interest in the 
 building trades than I, and that he should be obtained from the Association of 
 Architects. I understand that they offered to the Toronto Chapter of the Asso- 
 ciation of Architects the pleasure of nominating the chairman. 
 
 14
 
 MAECH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 499 
 
 Since the 1st of April of that year I have not sat in with that council. I un- 
 derstand, however, that it is working very satisfactorily, has solved two or three 
 difficult situations, and that everything is going along in good shape at the 
 present time. 
 
 The council was formed rather more quickly than anyone in touch with it 
 thought it would be formed, and I think it has served a useful function in the 
 matter of the building trades in the city of Toronto. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR : May I say that Mr. Maclachlan was good enough 
 to give a great deal of his time during the war period to aiding the Department 
 of Labour and the Labour Sub-Committee of the Cabinet in bringing about 
 better relations in Canada between employers and labour. One of the things 
 he undertook was the work which he has just outlined. 
 
 Address of Mr. John H. Frye, in charge of Industrial Relations, Canadian Consolidated 
 Rubber Company, Limited, Montreal. 
 
 In the summer of 1919, the Executive Officers of our Company at Montreal 
 were of the opinion that by the formation of "Works Councils the employees and 
 management in our plants, would get a closer co-operation, a better understand- 
 ing of each other's point of view and responsibilities, and a healthier, happier 
 work day for all concerned. 
 
 The factory managers were called together to discuss the proposition and 
 were in favour of establishing such a policy, definite work being started in 
 October, 1919. 
 
 The proposed plan of Factory Council was of the committee type, composed 
 of employees and management representatives, working together as a body and 
 in committees for the discussion and decision on any questions of interest in the 
 operation of the plant. 
 
 The proposed plan of organization, after being discussed and sold to the 
 Factory Manager, was taken up next with the staff representatives, then with a 
 body of the employees, the points in the by-laws being discussed from all angles 
 and changes made at the different plants to fit local conditions such as length of 
 service of Employee Kepresentatives, number of representatives chosen and the 
 number of committees to be formed. 
 
 After the Factory Manager, Staff Representatives and Committee of Em- 
 ployees had gone over the subject very thoroughly, the proposition was put to 
 the employees either through instructive bulletins or through direct talks with 
 different groups of employees. At the time of the employees holding their 
 nominations and elections they were asked to signify their approval or not of 
 operating under the proposed Factory Council by-laws. 
 
 We have in our organization eighteen factories; some of these factories 
 being so located that at three points two of them are under one management 
 and at one point five are under one management. 
 
 Through the monthly meeting of our Factory Managers the Factory Council 
 idea has been developed with great interest. One after the other of our Factory 
 Managers have signified their intention of putting up the proposition of Works 
 Councils to their staff and employees, until at the present time we are operating 
 a Factory Council, or the same is in process of organization, in practically all 
 of our factories. 
 
 I would suggest to anybody who is thinking of operating a factory on a 
 Factory Council Plan that the same be developed with great care, especially after 
 
 15
 
 500 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 the proposed plan is formulated, that the people most interested in it understand 
 all of the advantages and points to be gained by the introduction of such a 
 plan, namely that the Factory Manager, the staff, and the employees under- 
 stand from start to finish just what it is that they are going to do. 
 
 As to the operation of the Factory Council, we believe absolutely that every 
 question that comes up for settlement is in the first place a question between 
 the employee and his foreman or immediate inspector. We point out clearly to 
 our employees that the foreman is in charge of that branch of the work and 
 held responsible for same and must be treated with respect. On the other hand 
 we expect our foremen to see that their employees are getting a square deal at 
 all times and we expect them to handle their employees wih courtesy and 
 fairness. 
 
 A point which is not settled between an employee and his foreman may be 
 advanced by either one of them, first by taking into conference the Employee 
 Representative in the group and the Management Representative who is in 
 charge of Industrial Relations at the Plant, then to one of the Council Divisions 
 who are most interested in the question which is under discussion. 
 
 The foreman has absolutely nothing to fear from the Factory Council 
 organization if he is dealing with his employees on a fair and square basis. If 
 an employee forces a question over his head to one of the Council Division 
 meetings, it will then be settled over the table by conference and the foreman's 
 decision upheld. On the other hand the employees have nothing to fear from 
 the Factory Council as they are allowed the same channel as the foreman in 
 bringing the question before the Council Division meeting and the Management 
 guarantees to employee representatives that they shall be free to discharge 
 their duties in an independent manner without fear that his individual relations 
 with the company may be affected in the least degree by any action taken by 
 him in good faith, acting in a representative capacity. 
 
 If the Council Division which first discusses this question is unable to 
 reach a decision they may finally agree to pass the matter on to the Executive 
 Board which is composed of the Employee Chairmen of the different com- 
 mittees, and an equal number of Management Representatives. If this com- 
 mitte cannot reach an agreement we believe that the employees should be 
 allowed to choose anyone whomsoever they like and the management will choose 
 whomsoever they like, to form an Arbitration Board. If these two cannot agree 
 they shall appoint a third person and the decision of this Board of Arbitration 
 is final. 
 
 Many people have asked us why we set it down in black and white in the 
 by-laws, that the company is willing to open the doors and go clear through 
 with any subject which may come up. We believe in the first place, that nobody 
 is better able to settle any dispute than those directly concerned in it, and if 
 our employees and management cannot come together somewhere along the line, 
 one of them is radically wrong somewhere. We believe that our arbitration 
 clause acts as a safety valve. Although the management and the employees know 
 that any question which they cannot settle among themselves will finally come 
 to arbitration they will be much more careful in trying to reach an agreement 
 among themselves somewhere along the line. Take for instance if there are 
 several questions on the budget to be discussed, the first one may be quite a 
 bone of contention. It is easy enough to set this question to one side for the 
 time being and get busy on other matters. By the time this committee has 
 worked together on three or four questions, they are co-operating and working 
 
 16
 
 MABOH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 501 
 
 together and it is much easier to turn to the contentious matter and nine times 
 out of ten, reach an agreement. 
 
 We believe that our nominations and elections should be run separately, 
 nominating two employees for each representative to be finally chosen. In this 
 way the final choice will represent over 50 per cent of the employees interested. 
 
 We believe that our Employee Representatives should be paid. The de- 
 cision on this in talking it over with our employees is that during working hours 
 Employee Representatives receive from the company payment at the rate per 
 hour of their individual average earnings. If, however, the meeting is held 
 after working hours, members of the Employee Representatives receive payment 
 at the rate of their collective earnings. 
 
 We have a clause in all our by-laws guaranteeing the independence of 
 Employee Representatives. We also make no discrimination against any em- 
 ployee because of race, sex, political or religious affiliations, or membership or 
 non-membership in any labour or other organization. 
 
 The minutes of all meetings are posted throughout the plant on bulletin 
 boards. 
 
 Any part of our Factory Council plan may be amended at any time. The 
 amendment must receive the approval of both the Management and the Em- 
 ployees. 
 
 Statement by Minister of Labour regarding Canadian Railway Board off Adjustment 
 
 No. 1. 
 
 I am sure we have listened with very great interest to Mr. Frye and others 
 who have spoken. Before adjourning, I would like to make brief mention of an 
 industrial council that has been established in Canada, but which is not re- 
 presented by any gentleman here to-day. I refer to our railways. This council 
 has been an undoubted success. In July, 1918, great difficulties were looming 
 up on our Canadian railways with respect to wage matters, because from 1914 
 to 1918 our railway boys had carried on very loyally without an increase in 
 wages commensurate with the increase in the cost of living. A meeting was 
 held, with which I happened to have something to do, and 79 representatives of 
 the railway employees, and 24 representatives of the railway companies, met to- 
 gether and reached a decision that there should be no interruption of transporta- 
 tion during the war, no matter what difficulties might have to be met with. 
 In order to provide machinery, with this in view, a board consisting of six 
 men representing the employees and six representing the railway com- 
 panies was established, and since that time, notwithstanding the fact that the 
 war has been over for two and a half years, any questions arising which were 
 not possible of solution between the individual railways and their employees, 
 were referred to this board and thereby satisfactorily and unanimously disposed 
 of, and there has never been occasion to resort to the Industrial Disputes In- 
 vestigation Act on our railways since that time, with one exception. The arrange- 
 ment has been an unqualified success; and while the agreement was entered 
 into only for the duration of the war, it is still in effect. I am convinced that 
 this general principle is absolutely sound, and I am delighted that so many of 
 our larger employers are giving attention to it. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown) : We have with us Mr. C. Chiiig, Super- 
 visor of the Industrial Relations of the United States Rubber Co., who, I am 
 pleased to learn, is a Canadian by birth, and who has come all the way from 
 New York to take part in this Conference. 
 
 17
 
 502 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 Address of Mr. C. S. Ching, Supervisor of Industrial Relations'of the United States 
 
 Rubber Company, New York. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I will attempt to outline in a general way some of my 
 ideas in regard to works councils, and some of our experiences on the other side 
 of the line. The experience there has been practically the same as that of the 
 Consolidated Rubber Companies' factories, as outlined by Mr. Frye. Previous 
 to my connection with the United States Rubber Company, I was with a company 
 dealing with representatives of organized labour. We had 18 different unions, 
 and it was my job to negotiate with the representatives of those unions. From 
 that experience it was my belief that in order to establish some sort of contact 
 between the employer and the employee within a factory, where the group of 
 employees was so large that it was not possible for the management to know 
 them personally, it was necessary to have some kind of organization. My ex- 
 perience with the various unions there demonstrated that it was necessary ta 
 have contact of some kind with the employees who were vitally interested in the 
 particular plants. I made an investigation of works councils in several of the 
 large corporations in the United States, and the more I saw of them the more 
 I was convinced that there was some way to bring about a relationship within 
 the plant that would produce results. 
 
 Factory councils, works councils, industrial councils, or whatever you please 
 to call them, are merely based upon the fact that 98 per cent of the people in 
 the world are fair if they know the facts. That is about all there is to it. Take 
 any group of people take you gentlemen here with any propositions that may 
 come before you if you know all the facts I am willing to gamble that you 
 would reach a pretty fair decision. The development in the United States has 
 been along this line. Take \t in our New England industries where we had 
 small plants, where one man owned a plant and had two or three other fellows 
 working with him. Those men knew each other, they were associated with each 
 other, and their problems were common and they co-operated to work out their 
 problems. 
 
 But as plants grew, various problems of management entered into the 
 question; the managers had their time taken up with matters of manufacturing 
 and selling and machinery, with the result that the employees and the manage- 
 ment grew away from each other. There was not the opportunity to know each 
 other's problems and I want to say that when we know each other's problems 
 within our plants, we will have taken a long step towards settling most of our 
 industrial difficulties. 
 
 We have in the United States Rubber Company ar the present time fourteen 
 what we call factory councils operating. I hope no one here will be misled in 
 regard to factory councils; I hope no one will get the idea that you can take any 
 kind of plan and put it into your plant and have it work. We have in the United 
 States organizations for building and selling industrial council plans, and have 
 them on a very high production basis, and you can go to them and buy these 
 things and they are guaranteed to work. All that, Sir, is very ridiculous and 
 absurd when you stop to think that all you are endeavouring to do is to have 
 some means whereby it is possible for all the people in the plant to give their 
 view-point to the other fellow and to get his. 
 
 The best plan of industrial council that can be devised in any plant is the 
 one that will best suit that particular plant, and the best way to determine what 
 plan will suit that particular plant is to get together with all the people in the 
 plant so that you may know all the view-points and work out the plan with 
 them. However, there are certain things which are absolutely necessary. Mr. 
 
 18
 
 MARCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 503 
 
 Frye spoke of arbitration. As a result of my experience in negotiating labour 
 grievances, I believe it is necessary to have some sort of plan, of arbitration in 
 every industrial council plan not that you will ever use it, rot for the purpose 
 of arbitrating, but because an arbitration clause in any labour agreement or 
 plan of this kind is one of the best instruments of negotiation that you can 
 possibly have. There is no need of anyone going out and slamming the door 
 if you have an arbitration clause; but if you have not got it and anyone goes out 
 and slams the door you have no way of getting him back in again. I believe there 
 should be an arbitration provision so that you may have all the negotiation that 
 is possible and if you go at it in a fair-minded way, any negotiations with your 
 employees can be carried to a successful conclusion if you have confidence in 
 them and they have confidence in you. One of the fundamentals is that you 
 must have confidence in the employees or they will not have confidence in you. 
 Confidence must be mutual. 
 
 Another thing of which I am convinced and I think everyone thinking of 
 factory councils would be is that there should be no discrimination. First 
 you must guarantee the independence of the representatives so that they may be 
 free to express themselves when acting in a representative capacity when matters 
 are being taken up. A man must not be discriminated against because he says so- 
 and-so or that the foreman is to blame, no matter whether he is borne out by the 
 facts or not, so long as he honestly believes in what he says. You must not 
 permit a foreman to discriminate against a. man because he has taken a matter 
 up in a certain form. Another thing which I think is necessary is that there 
 should be no discriminating against a man because of membership or non- 
 membership in a labour organization. A plan that discriminates against a man 
 because he belongs to a labour organization is not open and above board and on 
 the level. 
 
 If industrial representation is good, we want everybody in our plants to 
 know it. Industrial representation does not mean that you have a little organ- 
 ization in your plants functioning in an independent way. You have repre- 
 sentation for one purpose and one purpose only, that of getting together with 
 your employees on a proper basis, and giving everybody an opportunity to 
 express himself freely and unless you do that on an honest, open and frank 
 basis you won't get very far. 
 
 More employee representative plans have succeeded in the United States 
 than I thought possible, when you take into consideration some of the con- 
 ditions under which factory councils have been installed. Some of them are 
 going ahead to-day and working out very well, not because of, but in spite of the 
 way in which they were installed. 
 
 It is natural for employees in some industries to be distrustful of their em- 
 ployers; it is natural for the employer to be distrustful of the action of the em- 
 ployees. In some instances they have both been at each other's throats; they 
 have not attempted to get together to work things out. In most instances where 
 trouble has occurred there has been an attempt on the part of someone to dom- 
 inate, to put something over on the other fellow and "if the other fellow puts it 
 over on me, I will put it over on him if I get a chance." You cannot have that 
 spirit, and any employer who puts in an industrial council with the idea of 
 putting something over on the employees will find that his industrial council will 
 not work unless he has a charge of heart. I have known of cases in which I 
 sincerely believe the employers put in industrial councils for the purpose of 
 putting something over when they got the plan working; but when they found 
 the employees in their plant willing to co-operate with them on a fair and honest 
 basis they had a change of heart. 
 
 19
 
 504 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 We have had some rather remarkable experiences that is, they were 
 remarkable to some people, possibly to some of our foremen and some of our 
 superintendents, because they did not believe that the employees would co- 
 operate through the factory councils in the way they did. We had an instance 
 in one of our factories where the employees, through the council, asked for a 
 25 per cent wage increase. That was a matter that would come up through the 
 representatives and would go through the various committees, and, if it could 
 not be settled in committee, would eventually go to arbitration. When the 
 matter was brought up the manager asked the employee representatives on 
 what basis the increase was asked for. The claim was made on the basis of the 
 increased cost of living. The employees said that they believed the cost of living 
 in that particular community had advanced to a greater extent than it had in 
 other parts of the country. We placed what facilities we had at the disposal of 
 the employees so that they might secure a proper survey of the cost of living in 
 that community, and after they had considered this, they came back with the 
 report that whereas wages had increased 118 per cent, and the cost of living only 
 90 per cent, a further wage increased was not justified at that time. This in- 
 formation was posted throughout the factory, and the decision arrived at was 
 entirely satisfactory to the employees. In other words, it was just a case of 
 getting at the facts in an open-minded, fair way. 
 
 We have had throughout all industries everywhere the problem of the fore - 
 man and the little "boss". A lot of managers of industry to-day, if they have 
 any suspicion of what the little "boss" is doing, will get busy and go down and get 
 to know that little "boss". Wliat I say in this regard is just as true in one factory 
 as in another. To the man at the bench the little "boss", the foreman, is the 
 company ; and if industrial councils are not useful for any other purpose than to 
 make bigger men out of your foremen, they will have done much in that way alone. 
 
 In a certain plant the foremen all meet together every week. When the 
 industrial council plan went in there the foremen said: "We are sold on it, we 
 are willing to give it a whirl," but there may have been some mental reserva- 
 tions. They were not very sure how it was going to work out. However, in this 
 particular plant after a few months' experience with the industrial council, a 
 request was sent to the employee representatives, through the management, 
 asking to have representatives of the council sit in at every foremen's meeting. 
 This worked out very splendidly indeed. The foremen in making a decision 
 know the viewpoint of the representatives, and when a matter is brought out to 
 the factory, the representatives know just why a decision is made and are in a 
 position to explain it. 
 
 There is something that we all ought to realize, and you will realize it more 
 fully when you have councils in operation; the majority of your employees are 
 more loyal to your company and to your industry than you give them credit 
 for being. There are a great many employees in industry to-day who have just 
 as much and possibly more pride and loyalty to those industries than we suppose. 
 We want to have those employees appreciate that they have something worth 
 being loyal to; in other words, we want to give them our confidence and I don't 
 know of any other way of giving it to them than by some plan of getting together. 
 
 It does not make much difference what you call it an industrial council 
 or a town meeting but gentlemen, don't get confused when you are thinking 
 of factory councils. Factory councils establish an organized relationship between 
 all the people in the plant, giving them opportunity to get acquainted and to pull 
 on the same rope in the same way instead of pulling against each other. 
 
 I do not know how it is in Canada, but I do know that in the United States 
 during the past four or^five years there seems to have been a very well organized 
 
 20
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUB GAZETTE 505 
 
 publicity campaign carried on from Congress, from the Executive Mansion, 
 right down through the churches, colleges, newspapers and magazines, to build 
 up class consciousness. In the name of common sense, if we have in our in- 
 dustries to-day managers who are sincere and workers who are sincere, isn't it 
 absolutely necessary that the management should know what ideas the workers 
 may have in regard to certain things? Isn't it doubly essential that the people 
 at the bench should know the viewpoints and thoughts of the management? 
 In that way we shall develop a sense of responsibility on the part of both the 
 management and the workers which cannot be established in any other way. 
 They must be got together and that can never be done on the basis of class 
 consciousness. Whatever plan you devise, be sure that it is a plan which every- 
 body knows is the best that can be worked o.ut for a particular plant. 
 
 In one plant of 4,600 employees, 90 per cent, were non-English speaking. 
 They were not born in the country, they were aliens, and were not citizens. I do 
 not know how many languages were spoken in that plant . When the proposition 
 for a works council was brought forward, the manager of that plant feared that 
 it would not work. But he was one of those fellows who says: "Well, if anyone 
 can make it work I can," and he went ahead. I think the plant has done more to 
 bring all those people of various nationalities together and to enable them to 
 meet on common ground than any other one thing we could have-done. One of 
 the matters the council brought up was the question of putting in schools and co- 
 operating with the community in the teaching of English. The problem was 
 worked out, and the result is that the schools are very well attended. The em- 
 ployees, meeting together in council, discovered the necessity for having some 
 common language, and they went ahead and encouraged the schools. The 
 problem over there is a little complicated, of course, on account of there being 
 so many nationalities ; but it always comes back to the principle that 98 per cent 
 of the people when they know the facts, no matter where they may have been 
 born, can be depended on to be fair. 
 
 We have had other cases in which the I. W. W. have gone into a plant. 
 In one case in New Jersey the men of a neighbouring concern were out on strike 
 as a result of the I. W. W. and they were around town distributing radical 
 circulars and so on. The manager of our plant became quite concerned and 
 called the council together and said, "Gentlemen, I want to talk to you about 
 this business; it is looking pretty serious." The chairman of the council got up 
 and said, "Mr. Manager, this is not your problem; it is our problem. We will take 
 care of any I. W. W. situation that may develop in this plant. We believe in this 
 council plan, and you need not worry a bit about the I. W. W." 
 
 A little resume of our experiences in regard to elections might be of interest 
 to you. One of the things that has been said quite frequently is: "Well, all 
 right, if you put an industrial council into my plant all the radicals in the plant 
 will be elected, and then what are you going to do ?" Another thing that I have 
 heard is: "The plan may work all right in your plant, but it won't work in my 
 plant." In our first elections 314 representatives were elected in 14 factories. 
 The average age of the representatives elected was 37.9 years, hence they did not 
 put in the young fellow who might not be stable. The average length of service 
 was 12.5 years the employees elected men who had been long in the service 
 of the company. 
 
 The fourteen counc'ls which we have handled* 2,309 cases in six months 
 irom January 1st to July 1st, 1920. These cases covered a variety of subjects, 
 and in no case did any question in dispute go to arbitration, in other words, the 
 councils negotiated them and settled them satisfactorily to all concerned. I say 
 they were "settled satisfactorily", because under the industrial council plan you 
 
 21
 
 506 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 have got to settle matters satisfactorily. That is the beauty of getting together 
 and understanding one another. The matter has to be thrashed out, and before 
 that is done everybody is going to understand everybody else. When you get a 
 group of people together and they understand each other and are sincere, they 
 can settle anything. 
 
 We do not have industrial councils in all plants. In one group it became 
 necessary to consider a readjustment of wages. Within a comparatively recent 
 period the last two or three months other concerns were cutting wages and 
 posting notices, and laying off men. We recognized the necessity for getting the 
 price of our product on a competitive basis. We did not want, however, to make 
 any wage adjustment which would be considered unfair. The matter was taken 
 up with our industrial councils and discussed thoroughly; the question of the 
 price of the goods was gone into, as well as the cost of living, and other expenses. 
 It was our experience that the factory councils functioned just as well when 
 wages were going down as when going up. 
 
 The rubber industry, as you know, is not a unionized industry in the United 
 States. In two or three cases, however, there are- organizations. I would like to 
 mention one instance in Connecticut. I may say that was one of the federal 
 unions as distinct from a craft union. The president of the union was elected 
 , chairman of the employees' committee, and while I do not know, I presume that 
 he consulted the local organizer, and as the thing went along in the factory, the 
 interest in the labour organization at that particular point seemed to die out. 
 I do not think there is any union there at this time. That, as you understand, 
 was one of those unions which grew up overnight. In another case the chairman 
 of the factory council was at one time a delegate to the central labour union, 
 in fact had been for about ten years. He was a very able, level-headed fellow, 
 and in one instance, in discussing a matter of a wage adjustment, around the 
 table, he said: "I want to speak about a matter that is entirely apart from this 
 council. I have some very good friends in the Shoe-Workers' Union, and I used 
 to sit in council with them. I would like to take this matter up with them." 
 The man came back later on and said: "It is just as I thought; they decided in 
 favour of you and me." But keep in mind the fact in relation to the rubber 
 industry that it is not a unionized industry in the United States. In a few 
 isolated cases federal unions have gone in; but I do not believe there is a rubber 
 factory that has an agreement w'ith'an organized labour union. 
 
 MR. VALENTINE: May I be permitted just a word? At one of the early 
 meetings of our council the subject of a wage increase was up. One of the com- 
 pany representatives, one of the'appointed representatives, spoke of the dangers 
 of setting a wage rate that might later be found to be unfair to the company, 
 and therefore, in the final analysis, not in the interests of the employee. The 
 chairman of the elected section said, if the time should come when that would be 
 shown to be the case, he had not the slightest hesitation in saying that the em- 
 ployees' section would recognize it cheerfully and consent to a reduction. From 
 my personal experience I have no hesitation in saying that they will look upon 
 it just as fairly on the downward scale as they have on the upward scale. 
 
 MR. GRAY: In our council there have been only two wage reductions; one 
 a straight reduction, covering the entire salary on the percentage basis, and the 
 other removing our minimum wage rate. 
 
 MB. QUIRK : Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ching has spoken with a very profound 
 knowledge of the work of the industrial council; he has spoken of a case in 
 which other languages than the English language are spoken. Mr. Frye went 
 very carefully to work on his plant. We are well aware that Mr. Frye's plant 
 is one of the largest and one of the best distributed geographically in this 
 
 22
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 507 
 
 country. He has, as we know, factories established in the province of Quebec, 
 which is distinctly a French-speaking section. It has occurred to me to ask 
 Mr. Frye- if he has experienced any difficulty, or any opposition, or any dif- 
 ferent attitude, so far as the French-speaking section of our Canadians are con- 
 cerned, in establishing the councils in the province of Quebec. We are well 
 aware that the question of language in this country is one that has to be con- 
 sidered, and I would like to ask Mr. Frye in establishing the councils at St. 
 Jerome and Granby, and at Montreal, which is very largely French, how the 
 matter was taken by the French-speaking people. Was there any modification 
 of the plan ? 
 
 MB. FRYE: The question came up in the Canadian plant in Montreal; 
 "What is going to happen; suppose you get half of these people here who 
 speak nothing but French, the other half would speak English and would not 
 understand French?" The employees' committee in working out their by-laws, 
 when it came to the question of representation, worked their council organization 
 out on a 4,000 basis which would necessitate 19 working representatives on the 
 council, and their officers agreed among themselves that it was very much 
 better for the employees, and that it would be very much better for the managers, 
 if it were possible to have the representatives on these committees speak both 
 French and English. For that reason we finally agreed on a representation 
 of 54 employee representatives, covering every department in the factory and 
 every group of workers, and from the 54 they were able to select 19 who were 
 able to speak both French and English. That is one of the reasons why we had 
 such a large representation in that plant. That is a plant employing 2,200. 
 
 At Granby there are about 700 employees in the plant. In making up 
 the list of those eligible for employee representatives, a note was made in regard 
 to the speaking of English and French. They tried as far as possible to get 
 representatives who understood both languages. I should say about 25 per 
 cent of our employee representatives at Granby could not speak English; the 
 rest speak both French and English. We found that to work out very nicely, 
 because if we had a committee, say on working conditions, and there were two 
 employee representatives on that committee who did not understand English 
 very well or did not speak it very well, the other representatives were very much 
 more attentive to every single point in the discussion. Our foremen, too, are 
 also very much more attentive to every point, because the employee representa- 
 tives, as soon as a thing is said in English, repeat it in French. Half the 
 meetings commence in English and end in French. A person may go on for 
 five or ten minutes in English, and then turn around to French, or one fellow 
 will speak English and another will answer in French. 
 
 At St. Jerome our plant is, I should say, 100 per cent French speaking. 
 Although it is 100 per cent French speaking, all the employee representatives 
 speak both French and English fluently. At our Columbus factory in Montreal 
 I should say that 96 or 97 per cent are French Canadians. They carry on all 
 their discussions in French. The foremen speak both French and English, and 
 most of the employee representatives speak English, but they find it more con- 
 venient to carry on in French. Our industrial council agent at that point is 
 French, and although the managers cannot speak French, they get along 
 extremely well. 
 
 At the Canadian plant our manager is able to speak French quite fluently, 
 and gets along very nicely. This question was one that caused a good deal of 
 discussion. Nearly every one of our Quebec managers said: "I don't speak 
 
 23
 
 508 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 French, what are we going to do?" But we found that the problem worked 
 itself out without any trouble. 
 
 Along the line of what Mr. Ching has said with regard to representatives 
 of the labour union on our industrial councils, I may say that at Granby we 
 have all the representatives of the International Union, and I think we have 
 all the representatives of the National Catholic Union. 
 
 MR. BROWN: What do you mean by all the representatives? 
 
 MR- FRYE: All the officers of the two unions. In Montreal, between our 
 Canadian plant and our Columbus plant, I believe we have all the officers of 
 the National union and of the International union. At St. Jerome we have two 
 of the officers of the International union. They have no National union. In 
 Kitchener we have a member of the Trades Council and also the president of 
 the Boot and Shoe "Workers' Union. The only place where there was any 
 question was at Kitchener, at the time this council was being formed. This 
 man, the member of the trades committee of the council, became very much 
 interested in the council and was very much surprised when the manager of 
 the plant asked him if he would not talk it over with some of his friends. The 
 thing went on from time to time, and I think the Trades and Labour Council 
 at Kitchener proposed a resolution that none of the members of the union 
 should be employee representatives in this works committee. That resolution, 
 however, was very much overruled, and there has been no further question 
 on that point. It was explained to me that the question was taken up with the 
 workpeople, and they said : ' ' Here, this is absolutely a works council ; we are 
 only 15 per cent organized; there is no reason why we should not be in this 
 with the other 85 per cent ; " so they practically took their own head for it. 
 
 Address of Mr. P. F. Sinclair, in charge of Industrial Relations, Imperial Oil, Limited, 
 
 Toronto. 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I wish to express my appreciation to the 
 Minister of Labour for the invitation that he has extended to myself in this 
 connection, and also to congratulate the Department of Labour in calling 
 together us men who are, of course, interested in this matter. I think this is a 
 very fitting time for us to get together because we all feel that the year 1921 is 
 bound to be a testing time in all industries. I feel that the Senator has put his 
 finger on the fundamental principle of all our work when he says that if 
 industry is to be carried on with advantage to all parties concerned it must be 
 carried on with the willing co-operation of the men who are called the employers 
 and the men who are called the employees. 
 
 The Imperial Oil Company has been a pioneer in this matter. "We have had 
 our plan, & very well thought out plan in force now for two years, or a little over, 
 and while it requires almost five years to determine the real results with confidence, 
 still it is our sincere and reasoned judgment that the plan has met the situation in 
 such a remarkable way that every single case has been settled satisfactorily. 
 We have had no strikes. We have plants from St. John's, Newfoundland, to 
 British Columbia; at points in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, 
 Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia and now we are putting 
 one into operation in the far north at Fort Norman. We have 14 councils, four 
 of which were put into operation last fall. With my very able assistant, Mr. 
 Thompson, I Had the pleasure of organizing those four councils, one of which, 
 in the province of Quebec, is composed practically entirely of French people. 
 
 24
 
 MASCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 509 
 
 I found that the establishment of that council in Quebec was received with un- 
 rivalled enthusiasm. Happily the French language had no difficulties for us, 
 and we found the men willing and anxious to co-operate with us. 
 
 We have felt that all questions that have come before the councils have been 
 satisfactorily settled. I have here just a brief statement which appeared in the 
 February issue of the ' ' Imperial Oil Review, ' ' which indicates that there were 36 
 questions of wages settled; 47 questions of working conditions; 5 questions of 
 promotion and discharge; 23 questions of hours of work; 41 industrial repre- 
 sentation plans; 58 questions of sanitation, housing, and social matters; and 25 
 miscellaneous. Each of these cases was settled to the complete satisfaction of 
 the employees and the company. In all 235 questions were adjusted satis- 
 factorily, covering a wide range of subjects. 
 
 Another point I think was raised by Mr. Young, and touched upon by Mr, 
 Ching, viz., that the real testing time is to come when wages are to be 
 lowered. My introduction to this industrial council work was a very pleasing 
 one. I had to go to the different councils and inform them that the men had 
 been placed on an eight-hour basis, and that their wages generally were in- 
 creased about 10 per cent. That was a very easy thing to do. But the real 
 test comes when you have to go to these councils and ask them to agree to a 
 reduction in wages. The Standard Oil Company, with which we are very 
 closely associated, was confronted with the question of the reduction of wages 
 in the Bayway refinery, where my brother is the medical director. I have 
 received a copy of their plant paper, in which the leader is "The victory of 
 industrial representation." On February 1st, the industrial council agreed to 
 reduce their bonus one-half. It was an act of honesty and courage. That is an 
 instance of men who, realizing the whole situation, were willing to play the 
 game according to the rules of operation. I think it is a remarkable thing ; it is 
 a remarkable tribute to the men themselves, and it is a remarkable tribute to the 
 plan of the Standard Oil Company. These men did this thing of their own free 
 will, because they realized that the company had undertaken to carry forward 
 its plans of operation on the principle of a square deal. "A square deal" has two 
 sides to it it means that there must v be a square deal with the employee and a 
 square deal with the employer as well. That is where some men fall down. 
 They seem to think that they are the only ones entitled to a square deal. The 
 man who works with his hands has a right to say when investing his energy that 
 he is entitled to a fair price for it, because the real thought underlying the 
 action of the workingman is that enunciated by Robert Burns. Roseberry said 
 that the finest thing Burns had ever written was this: 
 
 "To mak' a happy fireside clime 
 
 To weans and wife, 
 That's the true pathos and sublime 
 
 Of human life." 
 
 > 
 
 We realize that this is the ideal of the workingman. He wants to put a 
 roof above his head and put clothes on the backs of his children an,d give them 
 an opportunity to make their way in the world. He is human ; he has the same 
 impulses we have; and ambition is coursing through the veins of his children 
 as in the veins of the children of other men. Because of this he has the right 
 to ask for a square deal, a little time to rest, a little time to work, a little time to 
 meet the obligations of citizenship. 
 
 25
 
 510 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 If we recognize this ambition of the workingman and put our stamp of ap- 
 proval upon it, we will say to him : ' ' You have the right to ask for a square deal ; 
 to ask for an honest return for honest labour. ' ' But there is another side to it. 
 That workingman, if he is an honest man, will give a square deal to his employer. 
 
 I may say from my intimate acquaintance with this work that I have been 
 impressed with the fairness of the workingman. I think Mr. Ching put his 
 finger upon the salient point when he said that 98 per cent of the workingmen, 
 if they know the facts, will deal in a reasonable and fair way. That is one 
 reason why we must be absolutely frank and sincere. We must face the facts 
 and not be afraid to place them before the men and ask their judgment and 
 co-operation upon them. 
 
 In order that you may get the viewpoint of the men in connection with 
 
 industrial conferences, I will read a few extracts from statements issued at 
 
 different points. The statement from Ottawa is as follows: 
 
 "The employees here appreciate the interest the executive management 
 are taking in their welfare, and the company need not have any hesitation 
 in relying upon the loyalty of the staff." 
 
 Ths word coms from Montreal : 
 
 "This council appreciates the many manifestations shown by the 
 company for the welfare of its employees, and particularly through their 
 insurance, sickness, pension and co-operative trust schemes." 
 
 The statement from St. John says : 
 
 "The unanimous feeling of the council and among the men is that 
 something very substantial has been accomplished." 
 
 Here is the word from loco, and I think it is most significant: 
 
 "There could not be found better or closer relations between employers 
 and employee than now exists between the Imperial Oil Limited and Im- 
 perial Oil employees. The Imperial Oil Company is entitled to know and to 
 feel that they fully deserve our unqualified loyalty at all times, and that we 
 gladly acknowledge it tangibly by our actions and conduct." 
 
 Then there is the statement from Sarnia : 
 
 "We feel that before adjourning this last meeting, we should express the. 
 appreciation of the elected delegates as to the manner in which they have 
 conducted these meetings. You have been straightforward, fair and square 
 in your attitude. This fact, we assure you, is fully realized in a marked 
 degree, especially by the second-term delegates on this committee. We also 
 wish to express our appreciation of the fair-mindedness and reasonable 
 attitude taken by the selected delegates throughout the year. We therefore 
 extend to you a sincere and hearty vote of thanks; and although we may not 
 have the privilege of serving on this committee with you again, we want you 
 to know that while in pursuance of our work with the company we are still 
 members of this welfare committee." 
 
 There is another message from Edmonton, which indicates the same spirit. 
 
 Our councils are elected on a fifty-fifty basis, so many elected delegates " 
 and so many selected delegates, the superintendent or manager being the 
 chairman. In Montreal we had a little adjustment to ma,ke, but it was 
 easily made when the men were brought in and the matter discussed around 
 the same table. While, we admit that this is no panacea, we believe that 
 psychologically we are on the right road. We are all feeling our way. I do 
 not think that any one particular plan should be adopted, but that each 
 director ought to form the plan according to the requirements of his work." 
 
 26
 
 MARCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 511 
 
 When I was down in the Bayway refinery I saw the manager there. In order 
 that the men should not be called together during the hours of work say 60 men 
 every month he has an executive council representing the whole council who go 
 over matters and adjust them, and finally, when things are in shape, they are 
 brought before the whole council. The same thing is done in Parliament, where a 
 great deal of the work is performed by committees before being brought into the 
 House. In this way a great deal of time is saved. 
 
 Another thing he brought to my attention was the way in which they have 
 secured the co-operation of the women. They have a committee made up by the 
 wives of the delegates, headed by the wife of the superintendent, and these 
 women look after the home conditions of everyone engaged in the plant. 
 
 Another matter that was brought up was the effect that this plan was having 
 upon the management. I think it has a very profound influence. In one of 
 the plants of the Standard Oil Company there is a man with whom I was greatly 
 impressed. He is the superintendent of a certain plant and has great native 
 force and wonderful judgment in the handling of men. He has marked in- 
 tellectual strength. When this plan was put into operation he was not par- 
 ticularly enthusiastic about it, but after two years of operation it has developed 
 this man in a way that one can hardly realize made him a stronger man. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown): So far as I know, there is no provision for 
 arbitration in your particular plan. May I direct attention to that or are you pre- 
 pared to speak on that matter? 
 
 MR. SINCLAIR: I was greatly interested in the remarks on that phase of the 
 question. The agreement which we have is printed and is put in the hands of each 
 of the councils when they are organized. It is a rather lengthy document and I 
 will not inflict it upon the conference, but among other things contained in the 
 agreement is this statement: 
 
 "There is to be no discrimination on account of membership or non 
 membership in any church, society, fraternity, or union." 
 Then, as to the right of appeal: 
 
 "Any employee who feels that he has been unjustly treated or sub- 
 jected to unfair conditions, has the right of appeal to the general superin- 
 tendent and the higher officials of the company, provided he shall first seek 
 to have the matter adjusted by conference, in person or through his regu- 
 larly elected representative, with the foreman or superintendent of his de- 
 partment. Before such appeal shall be taken to any official not located 
 at the plant, it shall be first considered in a joint conference composed of the 
 employees' representatives in the division affected and an equal number of 
 representatives of the company. In case such conference fails to agree una- 
 nimously as to a fair adjustment, an appeal may be made to the executive 
 council at the works; or, in case such a council has not been organized, to a 
 conference composed of all the employees' representatives at the works, 
 together with an equal number of the company's representatives." 
 
 MR. WINTER: You have councils distributed pretty well all over the country 
 in very much the same way as the Bell Telephone Company has them. Is there 
 any way in which the different councils communicate with each other ? Do you 
 have any annual meeting of the representatives of the different councils or any- 
 thing of that kind, in order that they may become acquainted ? 
 
 MR. SINCLAIR: We have no general meeting except, of course, of the officials. 
 The heads of the councils come together more or less, and we have an annual 
 meeting of the chief clerks. 
 
 27
 
 512 THE LABOUE GAZETTE MAKCH, 1921 
 
 ME. MACLACHLAN: I took it from one of your remarks that there was a 
 tendency to cut down the number of meetings in one of your factories; that is, 
 to cut away from your council meetings and to have an executive meeting 
 instead. Have you found generally that your superintendents feel that monthly 
 meetings are giving too much attention to this subject, and that meetings three 
 or four times a year would meet the situation ? 
 
 MR. SINCLAIR: No. In marketing divisions the councils meet once 'every 
 three months. For instance, in the Hamilton plant, things were running so 
 smoothly that last year there was not a ripple, and it did not seem advisable to 
 call the men together every month. 
 
 Remarks of Mr. F. A. Acland, Deputy Minister of Labour. 
 
 You have already heard the Departmental point of view outlined, I think, 
 by the Minister and the Chairman. You all represent individually, or perhaps 
 even collectively, very important and varied industries. We in the Department 
 tome into touch with individual industries and difficulties, and sometimes with 
 industry as a whole. The Minister and the Department have tried to look at the 
 matter Dominion-wide, as it were, and now that the International Labour Office 
 has been established, we have to consider even the international point of view. 
 We do not look, as Mr. Sinclair has said, for anything in the nature of a panacea. 
 I do not think there will be any final conclusion to any of these matters; but that 
 is no reason why we should not look for the best means of getting along. We are 
 at a time when changes, I think, are more rapid than perhaps ever before, both 
 industrial and otherwise. A slight change in Europe determines the fate of coun- 
 tries, and affects countries in all parts of the world. The invasion of Belgium 
 changed the nature of the industries of this country and the United States, and 
 we all know the result. We are not yet through with that result; it is having 
 its effect on industries to-day; but the more rapid these changes are the more 
 necessary it is for us to endeavour to keep abreast of the times. 
 
 We may not have a panacea, but at least we can have something that effects 
 amelioration and tends to betterment and improvement. I do not know that I 
 can put the situation in that respect more clearly than it has been put I am 
 quoting it, not for the first time, because I think the sentiments are so fine that 
 they cannot be repeated too frequently and perhaps some 01 the Americans 
 present will not object to me quoting the American philosopher, Emerson, who 
 said: 'The destiny of organized nature is amelioration. It is for man to tame the 
 chaos. On every side while he lives to scatter the seeds of science and of song, so 
 that climate, corn, animals, men, may be milder, and the germs of love and 
 benefit may be fruitful and multiply." That is the sum and substance of the 
 philosophy to which he gave vent, and 1 think you could not have anything finer 
 than that embodied in all the efforts that are made to better and improve rela- 
 tions between employers and workmen. 
 
 f 
 
 Address of Mr. H. H. Stedman, Superintendent, Swift Canadian Co., 
 
 Toronto, Ontario. 
 
 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: We started the Industrial Relations Com- 
 mittee in our plant about 18 months ago. Before starting it, we looked into 
 several different plans and I think as far as the work of the committee is con- 
 cerned our plan pretty well follows along lines described by others around 
 the table. 
 
 We found early in the life of the committee that it was necessary to get the 
 full co-operation of the foremen as they were afraid that some of their authority 
 
 28
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 513 
 
 was being taken away from them. In order to educate our foremen, we had an 
 educational course for them, which has to a great extent overcome their opposi- 
 tion. 
 
 As far as the workmen are concerned, I think their spirit is much better 
 since the committee has been formed. I believe they feel that the Company 
 wants to be fair with them and that the ultimate results will be satisfactory. 
 
 Think the important thing is to get the facts before the workmen. 
 
 Address of Mr. 'J. H. Coffey, Jr., Factory Manager, Gutta Percha and Rubber, Limited, 
 
 Toronto. 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, there are certain features of our council 
 plan which may interest you. 
 
 I have heard several speakers describe their council plan, but I have not 
 heard anyone refer to the inception of it and how the idea was fostered. It might 
 be as well for me to briefly review our situation, which must be unusual, because 
 no one here seems to have had a similar experience. 
 
 It was a little more than two and a half years ago when we first heard the 
 expression of a desire on the part of employees for closer relationship with the 
 management in the discussion of mutual problems. Our plant, by the way, is a 
 privately-owned company employing about 1,300 workers, and there has always 
 been considerable sentiment and personal feeling between the owners of the 
 industry and the staff. There was a very strong feeling on the part of the em- 
 ployees that they would like to take a greater interest in the affairs of the com- 
 pany, and some of the old employees spoke of the early days of the industry when 
 the management knew every fellow-worker personally. But as time passed and 
 the plant grew, the old relationship changed, as might be expected. It was an 
 effort on the part of the workmen to revive that spirit. I was glad to see that 
 spirit abroad, but at the same time it was under rather peculiar circumstances 
 that were not exactly auspicious, because our employees suggested that some form 
 of profit-sharing might be established, and all of us who remember the sentiments 
 so freely expressed during the latter days of the war period, about the possibilities 
 of the era of industrial peace, will appreciate the circumstance. A committee 
 was appointed to talk over the situation, and finally concluded that profit- 
 sharing was not an unmixed" blessing, because it ought logically to involve 
 loss-sharing, and the suggestion was abandoned. 
 
 Out of the contact that was thus established grew the idea of continuing con- 
 ferences to discuss any grievances that might arise. In other words, to begin with 
 .our committee was merely a grievance committee, and during the first few months 
 did not meet at definite periods but only as occasions arose. As time went on 
 and we met regularly and got to know each other better, it was suggested that 
 the scheme could be put on a reasonably definite basis, and long before we con- 
 sidered the question of a constitution, we outlined the work of the committee 
 and suggested the election of representatives. The employees elected their men 
 and formed a committee which met with the management representatives, and 
 we discussed problems from time to time. 
 
 I remember very well that at our final meeting in 1919 it \vas suggested that 
 the plan of meeting was a good one, but that the contact established, like all such 
 contacts, was capable of some improvement. We decided to improve the contact, 
 and to that end a committee was appointed, consisting of two members of the 
 employees and one from the management. I happened to be the management 
 representative. This committee was commissioned to study all forms of em- 
 ployee representation and to bring in a report and submit a constitution. After 
 a study cf all the information they could get on the subject, which took consider-
 
 514 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 able time, the committee drafted a report, and in April, 1920, we started on our 
 real factory council plan in accordance with a definite constitution. 
 
 We tackled the thing in probably a little different way from a good many 
 concerns; we took the stand that the employees in the plant had a right to decide 
 for themselves just how they should be represented on the council, and their own 
 method of procedure. First of all, we drafted a constitution of a general factory 
 committee. We have a general factory committee, having one representative for 
 each 100 employees. In any sections where there are less than 100 employees 
 they elect a representative. In that way we got representation from all parts of 
 the plant. We have in certain cases one representative for 20 employees, but 
 in the case of large departments, like our footwear department, we have one for 
 each 100. 
 
 The representatives so elected meet each month, and the object of the 
 general factory committee is: "To promote and foster the social and economic 
 welfare of the factory employees of the company, and to encourage the closest co- 
 operation of the employees with the management on all matters of mutual 
 interest." Frankly, what we now r have is a Company union. The factory com- 
 mittee is operated entirely by the employees. They have their own chairman, 
 their own secretary and their officers, and out of that general factory committee 
 are selected five representatives to meet five representatives of the management T 
 thus constituting the council which meets each month. 
 
 We have worked under this constitution for almost one year, and while I 
 am quite optimistic, at the same time I fully realize that the testing time for 
 councils is about here. We are on the downward grade; it is the reverse side of 
 the cycle; and just what is going to happen eventually, I do not know. I have 
 reasonable confidence, but I do not feel that one can prophesy. 
 
 The best feature of the factory council idea is that it establishes contact, and 
 where there is contact there is the possibility of understanding and mutual confi- 
 dence, which is the basis of right human relationship. 
 
 The council consider all matters pertaining to the workmen social,, 
 economic, and welfare and to me the finest thing about the plan is that the 
 employees have an opportunity of getting in touch with the management and 
 definitely voicing their sentiments on any matters. The most cheering thing of 
 all is the number of questions settled without reference to council. After all, is 
 not that what we are after ? The idea that in each sub-section of the plant the 
 man in charge will be so imbued with the idea of the personal touch that he, 
 acting as the direct representative of the management, adjusts the differences in 
 his department. In other words, what we are trying to do is to get back to the 
 old idea of one man being in close enough contact with a group of men that he " 
 can give them his point of view and in turn gain theirs. . 
 
 In case there is a misunderstanding, or'grievance, or some matter to be dis- 
 cussed, the rule- of procedure is that the matter must first be referred to the man's 
 immediate superior. This can be done by the man himself or by the represent- 
 ative in that department. If the superior does not make a satisfactory adjust- 
 ment, the matter is referred to the secretaries of the Council. We have two 
 secretaries; one, the general secretary of the factory committee, who acts for 
 the employees, and the other for the management side of the council. These two 
 receive the notice of the complaint. The management's secretary refers the 
 question to the superintendent of the department where the man is employed, 
 and it is up to him to make an adjustment. If the foreman cannot settle the ques- 
 tion, and the superintendent cannot settle it, then it is referred to council and 
 there are not very many matters that have to be settled by council. We proceed 
 upon the principle that the management must be responsible for the differences 
 
 30
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 515 
 
 in their section or sub-section, and it is up to them to make whatever adjustments 
 are necessary to satisfactorily settle the problem on the spot. 
 
 On the other hand, the council have taken action in many matters and they 
 have done good work. I am thoroughly optimistic about the future. I agree 
 with what Mr. Ching has said about the men, if they know the facts. I could 
 cite instances in which the employees' side have considered matters just as care- 
 fully and intelligently as the management would, if they were considering them , 
 That is a pretty good evidence of the level-headedness or the average man, and I 
 hope and trust that when we have to consider the reverse side of the industrial 
 cycle the same balanced judgment will prevail. 
 
 I might mention that our Company have always taken the stand perhaps 
 that is the reason why they held the confidence of the men to a very great 
 extent that there is to be no discrimination whether a man is a member of a 
 Union, a Mason, or no matter what order or lodge he may belong to. We care 
 not what party affiliations they have, and we feel that in the last analysis the 
 Company and the employees have got to get together. One reason why we 
 studiously left out the question of arbitration was because we did not want to 
 even hint that we could not compose our own differences without outside help. 
 That may be a weak point or a strong one ; it is a question of point of view or of 
 feelings, not facts. "We favour the idea of settling our own differences in our 
 own organization and not referring them to anyone outside. 
 
 Address of Mr. W. H. Winter, General Superintendent of Plant, Bell Telephone Company 
 
 of Canada, Montreal. 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in 
 favour of joint industrial or plant councils. 
 
 The question of employees' councils has been a very live one with us, and 
 I would like to endorse many of the things that have been said by other gentle- 
 men in conference here today. As a matter of fact, we got the idea of 
 organizing councils from the American Telegraph and Telephone Company 
 in the latter part of 1918. In the early part of 1919 we concluded we would try 
 to put across the proposition with our supervising staff. We had the experience 
 that many others have had that, owing to the old school being dominant many- 
 supervisors did not take to it kindly. Some of our officials absolutely talked 
 it down with the result that we had to let it go by at that time, believing 
 that unless we had the co-operation of the supervising officials we could not do 
 very much with employees' councils. 
 
 Later on, during the summer of 1919, we put the proposition before our 
 employees at meetings held in the various centres where we operate. The em- 
 ployees took to it much more readily than the supervising officials had done; 
 in fact, it was practically unanimous in every case that councils should get or- 
 ganized in the plant department. 
 
 We did not go very deeply into the question of a constitution. A draft 
 agreement was submitted to three of our largest bodies of employees, with the 
 request that they make additions and changes to suit themselves. The result 
 was the agreement we have with approximately 45 different plant councils. 
 
 The objects of the plant councils are "To provide a means whereby 
 employees may crystalize and present their views collectively to the management 
 with respect to wages and working conditions, through channels supplementary 
 to the existing organization; " and "To provide the management a meana 
 
 31
 
 516 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAKCH, 1921 
 
 whereby it may better know the preferences and appreciate the points of view 
 of the employees working under supervision. ' ' 
 
 We have found that plant councils do a great deal more than is set out. 
 They have undertaken to go considerably further than simply wages and work- 
 ing conditions, and the management has been able to obtain a great many good 
 points from the employees. The membership qualification is three months' em- 
 ployment with the company, and for employees' representatives on the com- 
 mittee the qualification is one year's employment. There are no membership 
 fees to the plant council and the company pays any expenses incidental to 
 operating it. The plant council is made up of the plant employees in an area 
 who are regularly proposed and elected. An area sometimes covers considerable 
 territory, and at other times only a city. Regular meetings are held once a 
 month; but the plant council may decide by resolution to call off a couple of 
 meetings in the summer months, and we have no objection to that. The rule is 
 that a week after the regular council meeting of the employees which is held 
 on their own time, usually in the evening the representatives and management 
 committee meet and bring up any matters they wish for discussion. 
 
 In the early days we had experiences similar to those mentioned by 
 some of the other gentlemen. The representatives were more or less of a grievance 
 committee. This company had been in operation for almost forty years without 
 any organization, and without any troubles to speak of, but there were a few 
 grievances that had to be straightened out. As a rule they were trifling matters, 
 some rule not understood or necessary or that some supervisor had inaugurated, 
 which were a cause of irritation. The result is now that the joint meetings have 
 become a constructive function for the benefit of the service, and when there is 
 nothing to bring up by either representatives, we have so arranged it that 
 one of the members of the management committee would give a talk on some 
 subject so that the committee will not lose interest in the meetings. 
 
 We think that the meetings should take place regularly, that they should 
 never be missed and that it is the duty of the company to see that there is some- 
 thing of interest brought up. That system has worked out very satisfactorily. 
 In addition, at the regular council meetings during the winter months, after the 
 council have finished their meeting with closed doors, the officials of the com- 
 pany, both of the plant and other departments have been invited and arranged 
 to give talks on various subjects pertaining to the business. This has been of 
 great benefit to the esprit de corps of the employees. 
 
 One of the main things we have found about plant councils is that we 
 have got to give reasons and not excuses when we cannot meet the wishes of the 
 employees; and that even if we have to give a negative decision we must be 
 honest and tell the truth about the matter. 
 
 We have councils for the plant department and exchange committees for 
 the operators and we also have committees for the larger accounting and com- 
 mercial offices. They are all worked out on pretty much the same plan as the 
 plant councils, except that the latter are purely committees and do not have the 
 same organization as the councils. We have got to the stage now where the 
 councils are carrying on constructive work. During the last eight or nine 
 months the Company decided, as they were going to go to the public to ask for 
 increased telephone rates, that it would be a good idea to get our 13,000 employees 
 busy to help boost the business along. The plant councils have been a great 
 factor in moulding public opinion in regard to the Telephone Company. In 
 some places, of course, the people think yet that the Telephone Company is a 
 
 32
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 517 
 
 sort of monster ; but nevertheless we find that throughout the country the work 
 of bettering public relations which we put into the hands of our employees has 
 undoubtedly done a great deal of good. There is just one instance that I may 
 mention. Our plant councils in Montreal and Toronto volunteered their ser- 
 vices as guides in order that subscribers could visit the exchanges ; and in those 
 two cities over ten thousand people visited the exchanges in one week. The 
 members of the plant councils gave their time free and conducted the people 
 around the exchanges. That is one of the particularly good jobs done by our 
 plant councils. 
 
 In addition, many of our officials have on invitation of the plant councils 
 given them talks. This was something never known of in the company before, 
 because we were one of the conservative companies that ran along as a happy 
 family. But times have changed, and we find today that it is very necessary 
 for the supervising officers to get in closer touch with the employees. Years 
 ago a superintendent of course knew everybody in his department. Today that 
 is impossible, but nevertheless there is a* great chance for doing good by keeping 
 in touch with the employees through the council meeting talks. 
 
 One of our great difficulties of course has been to get our lower-supervising 
 officers properly educated in this matter of employees' representation. This is 
 a difficulty which is hard to overcome, but we are getting there gradually, and 
 we believe it will eventually work out satisfactorily. 
 
 The time is coming now when the Telephone Company, like every manu- 
 facturing company, has got to produce for less than the present cost of pro- 
 duction. Naturally, like all the rest of the employers of labour, we do not like 
 to consider a reduction of-wages if it is possible to carry on in any other way. 
 But the plant councils and their committees have been fair when wages were 
 going up, and we believe that they will be fair when if necessary the wages 
 have to be lowered. 
 
 We are finding out that the . employees want to know more about the 
 company; they want to know about the balance sheets and the costs in their 
 different areas. A few years ago nobody seemed to care what things cost; but 
 today, even in the isolated areas, the employees are anxious to know what things 
 cost. 
 
 Of course the average length of service of our employees is very high, and 
 our labour turn-over in the past has been comparatively low. Under those 
 circumstances we expect that we will be able to talk to our people, and that they 
 will look at the conclusions which may have to be come to in the near future in 
 a spirit at least of fairness to the company and to the public. 
 
 In the city of Toronto, in the spring of 1919, our staff was very largely 
 organized, but regardless of that, at a meeting of about 400 employees, they 
 voted in favour of plant councils. The President of the Council made the 
 statement that it did not in any way affect their status in unions. 
 
 I have nothing else to say except that I think this is one of the things that 
 will save the situation at the present time, and I am heart and soul with this 
 movement. As Mr. Coffey has said, the closer you can get to your people the 
 better you will come out in the end, and while this is not going to clear up all 
 our difficulties, still we have gone a long way towards that end. 
 
 MB. MACLACKLAN : Mr. Winter, I was not quite clear whether the repre- 
 sentatives were paid or whether they met on their own time. Perhaps you 
 could clear that up. There is another thing: no doubt you have to bring men 
 some distance to these meetings. Are their expenses paid or not? Another 
 
 33
 
 518 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 point although I am. not a representative of a public utility, I am in touch 
 with many of them, and I would like to know how this scheme works out, as 
 to linemen. 
 
 MR. WINTER: The plant council meeting is held on the men's own time; 
 the employees' representatives and the management committee meet on the 
 Company's time. The Company permit men located from area headquarters 
 to attend the plant council meetings at the Company's expense. In so far as 
 linemen are concerned, we have not provided in our organization for special 
 councils for special classes of employees. Each class of employees in the area 
 elect by ballot their representatives to the committee of employees' representa- 
 tives. It is a combination committee made up of representatives of the different 
 classes. The number ordinarily is restricted to 7 ; but in Toronto and Montreal, 
 where there are a larger number of classes of employees, by resolution they 
 changed the number to 10. 
 
 Remarks of Mr. F. J. Gernandt, General Superintendent, International Harvester 
 Company of Canada, Ltd., Hamilton. 
 
 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have at the Hamilton works of the International 
 Harvester Co., a council which was inaugurated by a large majority, and almost 
 everybody feels satisfied with it. We have our committees, one-half employee 
 representatives and one-half management representatives that look after matters 
 under their jurisdiction around the plant. Lately we have had to relieve some 
 men- and we have always made adjustments through the plan. In some cases 
 the men feel that they are not told enough about these matters, and I don't know 
 but what they are right. Whenever a difficult situation arises the Secretary tells 
 us about them and we straighten them out as soon as possible. Some of our 
 men are not hardened politicians, and do not like the criticisms which may be 
 directed at them and do not like the remarks of their constituents, and this 
 makes it pretty difficult for the Secretary, who has to keep encouraging and 
 pointing out the proper procedure. 
 
 Our foremen and assistant foremen, like those mentioned by Mr. Winters, 
 need enlightening. We are trying to do as much as we can in this way, and we 
 believe that if we could get the message across to everybody that would be almost 
 the end of our job. 
 
 Last Thursday at the council meeting I had occasion to ask the meeting to 
 consider lowering our common labour rate minimum from 45 cents to 40 cents. I 
 explained the reason for it, that the condition of the business really meant that 
 the local management would be criticized if we were paying more for common 
 labour than our competitors. After going over the ground it was reluctantly 
 concluded it was the only thing to do. Like other members of the conference, I 
 feel that if there is a thorough understanding of the facts by both sides there will 
 be no difficulty in arriving at a solution of most of the problems we have to face. 
 
 Address of Mr. F. T. Day, Secretary of the Hamilton Harvester Industrial Council, 
 International Harvester Company of Canada, Limited. 
 
 MR. CHAIRMAN: The employees of Hamilton Harvester Works number 
 about 2,000, and for election purposes the plant is divided into eight voting 
 divisions. From each division an employee representative is elected, by secret 
 ballot, and to illustrate the interest taken in the Council plan at our works, I can 
 say that at the last election, held in December, there were more candidates and 
 a larger vote was polled then when the plan was inaugurated in March, 1919. 
 
 The management representatives are appointed by the Superintendent and 
 usually consist of department heads and foremen. 
 
 34
 
 :MABCH. 1921 THE LABOUK GAZETTE 519 
 
 At present our employee representatives are composed, I think, of six 
 Union and two unorganized workers. These meet at least once a month separately 
 before the regular monthly council meeting to discuss matters and all look 
 forward to that event with much interest. 
 
 It is our practise to furnish all Council Members with "an order of business" 
 sheet at least three days before the council meets, that they may know just what 
 business will be brought up and any matter not on the regular order of business 
 must be, and frequently is, discussed informally. 
 
 When any suggestion or complaint is presented, it is my business to see that 
 it has first been put through the proper channels; that is, presented to the foremen 
 or superintendent for adjustment before it can be brought up in council, and it is 
 seldom that any such matter is not adjusted by foremen or superintendent. I 
 have found the men fair and have never had any real difficulty with them. In 
 any fair proportion that has been made we have had their co-operation and there 
 has not been any approach to a strike since the council was inaugurated at 
 Hamilton Works. It is true that many complaints have been made, for which 
 there was no cause, but when explanation was made the employee representatives 
 were satisfied and adjusted the matter with their constituents. 
 
 When asked their opinion of the council plan, as we have it, both employee 
 representatives and many workmen have stated that the plan is capable of great 
 possibilities. Our men are familiar with other plans and when asked if they 
 knew of anything that would improve the plan as it is, replied in the negative. 
 
 Hundreds of suggestions have been made to better safety, sanitary and 
 working conditions, which have been accepted and adopted, and also, a number 
 that have meant a real saving in many cases. I particularly recall one case, of an 
 employee representative, who is a chipper in our Grey Iron Mill; he had a great 
 deal of difficulty owing to some fault in moulding, in getting out enough castings 
 to make a day's pay and went direct to the foreman and workmen and pointed 
 out where the trouble lay and suggested a remedy and the difficulty ended right 
 there. Othe*rs have pointed out where sizes of stock more suitable for the work 
 in hand could be used and a saving made that way. 
 
 Individual adjustments of day and piece work rates downwards were re- 
 cently made and there was dissatisfaction on the part of the employee repre- 
 sentatives for the reason that they felt they should have been consulted fully 
 before such action was taken, but it was not hard to show them that as they were 
 not consulted when individual advances were made they should not object to a 
 revision downwards when conditions warranted. 
 
 Our council men are paid for time spent on council business, but they have 
 met a number of times and adjusted complaints among themselves without cost 
 to the Company. They also spend a great deal of time after working hours for 
 which they receive nothing, visiting the sick of their divisions, a list of whom is 
 furnished twice each week. They have also been active in inducing workmen to 
 join our Employees' Benefit Association and have been instrumental in bringing 
 up the membership to about 85 per cent of the total roll. Ways and means for 
 increasing production are frequently discussed at council meetings. Several 
 good suggestions for eliminating waste have been put forward, and many ideas 
 brought out that have effected real savings to the Company. Each of our em- 
 ployee representatives has the privilege of appointing a deputy to assist in his 
 work, as he often functions in half a dozen departments. The deputy assistants 
 are little cost to the company. 
 
 Our council does not meet as opposing bodies, that is, management repre- 
 sentatives on one side and employee representatives on the other side of the table, 
 but sit alternately side by side and are very friendly. 
 
 85
 
 520 THE LABOUE GAZETTE MAKCH, 1921 
 
 The workmen's representatives suggested inviting foremen and other em- 
 ployees to council meetings and this is a great deal to spread the council 
 idea in our works. I will cite an incident. Last Thursday we asked in a man who 
 openly ridiculed the council, stating that it was a joke and that the workmen's 
 representatives really had nothing to say. When I asked him the following day 
 what he thought of the meeting, he said: "I had no idea that it worked out the 
 way it does and after the frank and free discussion which I heard, and seeing the 
 open manner in which business is conducted, and especially after witnessing the 
 efforts of the employee representatives to protect the men in the matter of reduc- 
 tion of common labour rate from 45 to 40 cents per hour, I am sold to the council 
 idea and hereafter will do all I can to help the good work." 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: How often do your elections take place ? 
 
 MR. DAY: Every six months. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: Are the representatives eligible for re-election? 
 
 MR. DAY: Oh, yes. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR : How many have been re-elected ? 
 
 MR. DAY: Six out of eight were re-elected, some of them by acclamation. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown) : Mr. Reilly, you have been listening through- 
 out the discussion. You are interested in this subject from the point of view of 
 building and construction, a somewhat different interest from the factory point 
 of view which has been presented in the discussion and we would be glad to hear 
 from you as to your experience with joint councils as established in Ottawa, 
 Toronto, Hamilton, and London. 
 
 Address of Mr. J. Clarke Reilly, Secretary, Association of Canadian Building and 
 
 Construction Industries, Ottawa. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, and Gentlemen, The building branch of the construction 
 industry is in quite a different position to the industries that you have been 
 speaking about. It is different, in the first place, because ours is largely a seasonal 
 occupation. Most of our work is done in the summer months, though a certain 
 amount of construction work goes on through the winter. We are not in the same 
 position as you gentlemen in another respect. In most of the plants referred to 
 by the previous speakers, the employers were the ones who were organized. You 
 have referred to some extent to Unions among your employees, but'they seem to 
 be almost a negligible quantity. With us, it is the other way about, the employers 
 are very poorly organized, and the employees, especially in the skilled trades, 
 are very highly organized, and represent a great proportion of the men who 
 work for us. 
 
 Our work in connection with Joint Industrial Councils is of a recent nature. 
 You heard this morning from Mr. Maclachlan of the inception of the council in 
 Toronto. That Industrial Council has furnished the basis for the others which 
 have beeen instituted since. 
 
 Ottawa is unique in that it has had a closed shop agreement between the local 
 Association and the local Building Trades Council, so that the questions which 
 were referred to the Industrial Board have been of jurisdiction between one 
 trade and another, questions of difficulty between a foreman and workman, ques- 
 tions raised by employer against workmen, and in some cases, the decisions 
 given have been against the employer. 
 
 In Hamilton, an Industrial Board was formed in the building industry last 
 year, which has had only one important question to deal with, but in that case the 
 result was quite satisfactory. 
 
 36
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABODB GAZETTE . 521 
 
 In London, there is a Joint Industrial Board which has been doing good work. 
 
 There is one feature which I would like to speak about. As a result of our 
 Annual Conference a year ago, we appointed a Standing Committee on Labour. 
 This Committee had a meeting at Hamilton in May last with representatives of 
 the International Unions in the Building Trades, and as a result we decided to 
 inaugurate a National Joint Conference Board, which would have equal repre- 
 sentation from our Association and the International Unions. Meetings are 
 held once every three months, and while the Bo'ard has not endeavoured to be 
 a court of appeal from the local Boards, still it has taken up questions of national 
 importance, and has acted in an advisory capacity. The Chairman, Mr. Quirk, 
 is appointed by the Department of Labour. 
 
 This National Joint Conference Board has discussed questions ranging 
 from housing to conditions of employment in various centres. It is endeavouring 
 to standardize the practices and organization for the local boards. It is now 
 trying to get a standard agreement for apprentices in our industry, which we 
 feel is a very important work. I think this National Board has been a successful 
 experiment, and as it goes on, there will be found many new lines on which it 
 will be able to work. 
 
 The idea of conference between employer and the employees has been 
 gaining ground, and it is significant that men will travel two or three hundred 
 miles at their own expense, and spend a day or day and a half of their time in 
 order to attend these meetings and discuss questions with the representatives of 
 the employees. The benefits that you gentlemen have found in the Joint Indus- 
 trial Boards in your organizations, we hope to see duplicated in our industry along 
 lines suited*to our peculiarities of organization and working conditions. 
 
 Address of Mr. J. D. Jones, General Manager, Algoma Steel Corporation, Sault Ste. 
 
 Marie, Ontario. 
 
 Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen, we have not an organized industrial council 
 at our plant, but w r e do function somewhat along the lines prescribed and laid 
 down by you gentlemen in the previous discussion. We function through several 
 departments or committees, one of which, called the Allied Relief Committee, is 
 about as old as the plant, or 20 years old, and which up to the time the plant 
 started to grow took care of pretty nearly everything. 
 
 In 1918 we organized what is called our Welfare Board. ^ This Board looks 
 after the question of safety from the employees' standpoint; it operates a club 
 handles a plant paper, runs our plant restaurant, and -has jurisdiction over the 
 recreation and education committees. It is a responsible institution, and it is up 
 to it to operate things and not to run into the hole and then come to us for help. 
 
 In addition to this we have a Plant Committee, which has no other juris- 
 diction than to discuss wages, hours and working conditions. Then we have 
 divisional or. departmental committees which, in a sense, are grievance com- 
 mittees, and look after the matters that may arise in their departments. 
 
 It may be interesting to note that our Plant Committee has met the manage- 
 ment twice in the last ten months once last April when we called them in to 
 discuss an increase in wages, and once in January of this year when they were 
 called in to discuss a decrease in wages. Some of the gentlemen around the table 
 here have expressed a fear that perhaps their plant councils will not function 
 when it come to the question of a decrease in wages. I may assure them that 
 we worked that question out. all right, and we did it along the lines mentioned by 
 Mr. Ching, Mr. Sinclair, and others. We were very frank with the committee 
 android them exactly what the situation was with respect to the market and the 
 
 37
 
 522 . THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 going price of steel, and we worked put very carefully for them the relation of 
 wages to the producing cost of steel in connection with other factories, and put 
 it up to them in a straightforward businesslike manner just as we would to the 
 board of directors, and they were very agreeable to it. We were almost two weeks 
 before we put into effect the reduction, which was seventeen and six-tenths per 
 cent, and over 90 per cent of our employees were satisfied. 
 
 Another question that was raised while we were organizing the plant com- 
 mittees or industrial councils was whether agitators would not start trouble, and 
 whether we would not actually become a closed shop. We do not care whether 
 there are agitators on the committee or not. We let them come in with the rest 
 of the boys and we present to them cold hard facts, and they have to stretch 
 things pretty far before their co-workers will be carried away. 
 
 In analyzing conditions and we are working with the idea of co-ordinating; 
 these committees and establishing a plant council we have found the big stumb- 
 ling block to be our foremen. It does not make much difference what I or the 
 manager may desire to have done or what our general superintendent or department 
 heads may want to have done. We may discuss something in council and agree 
 on it, but after all it gets into the hands of the foreman in the shape of an order, 
 and he is the fellow who has got to do it. We have spent a year or more in weeding 
 out incompetent foremen and in checking up others who were indifferent, and edu- 
 cating other men for the position of foremen. We are just now commencing to 
 get the results, and we hope that within the next few months we will be able to put 
 into execution this organized plant council; but we do n6t want to proceed before 
 we are sure that everybody from the manager to the water-boy is thoroughly 
 educated to the nature of it. 
 
 Tuesday, February 22nd, 1921. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown): Yesterday afternoon the speakers followed 
 around the table one by one, and I think this morning we will all be interested 
 in hearing what Mr. Olzendam has to say as to what the Spanish River Pulp & 
 Paper Co., is doing in this regard. 
 
 Address of Mr. R. M. Olzendam, Secretary, Department of Industrial Relations, Spanish 
 River Pulp and Paper Mills, Limited, Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. 
 
 Mr. Chairmau and Gentlemen, I wish to express to Senator Robertson my 
 great appreciation of the invitation to be here today. It was the pleasure of the 
 Spanish River Co., on the 8th of January this year to have Senator Robertson pre- 
 sent at the annual President's Banquet, and anything the Company can do to 
 assist him in his work will be only too gladly done, because the talk he gave our 
 men at the banquet set everybody in tjie mills and offices thinking along new lines. 
 
 I was very glad to be here yesterday and to hear of the various experiences of 
 the gentlemen present. I fear that I have not a great deal to add to what has 
 already been said all I can do is to tell you of our experiences to date. We feel 
 that we are at the present time merely on the fringe of the question. We have 
 instituted a number of plans among our employees, but we have not yet arrived 
 at the point which has been reached by many of you gentlemen that is we have 
 not industrial councils operating in our plants. 
 
 We have approximately 7,000 employees in the mills and in the woods. It is 
 a very difficult thing, as you probably can imagine, to start what we might call 
 industrial relationship plans in the woods department. We wanted to make 
 sure that whatever moves we made were well grounded, and therefore we have 
 gone with a great deal more caution than perhaps some other companies have.
 
 MAKCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 523 
 
 We have gone slowly in an effort to bring all the facts as we saw them before 
 the majority of our employees. To begin with which probably is different from 
 any companies represented here today all our employees organized under two 
 unions; the International Brotherhood of Pulp and Sulphide Workers and the 
 International Brotherhood of Paper-makers. The company recognizes both these 
 unions and has workirg agreements with them lasting a yeir and covering 
 wsges and working conditiors. Therefore, I believe, our problem is different 
 from that of any of you gentlemen. 
 
 Of course, one plan might work in Spanish River which would certainly 
 create chaos in the United States Rubber or some other company, and our ex- 
 perience is purely within the Spanish River Pulp & Paper Co. and if we can 
 solve our own problems and promote harmony and good fellowship in our or- 
 ganization that is all we can hope tp do. And if every gentleman here would do 
 the same within his company we would not have any labour troubles or strikes or 
 anything else of that kind. That is the theory upon which we are working. 
 
 Mr. Mead, the President of the company, made a statement at our banquet 
 this year which seems to embody the thought we are all after, and with your per- 
 mission I will read what he said: "The management of the company feels that 
 the more closely we can become associated with the men upon whom we depend 
 for our daily operations, the more fully we can inform these men of what we are 
 attempting, and the more intimately they know the thoughts of the Executive 
 and the Directors and the Managers of our various departments, the better we 
 can all in co-operation accomplish that which is desired by the people who have 
 entrusted to us the money invested in our several plants." That is the basis 
 on which we work, and we believe that is sound. 
 
 To start with, our theory is that the management must be the beginning of 
 all things. The men who compose the management must be imbued with the 
 desire to create within the organization that certain indefinable something that 
 we call company spirit. Unless a majority of the management instinctively have 
 the desire to do that all plans are bound not to succeed. 
 
 We publish every week a plant paper known as the Spanish River News. We 
 started this about two and a half years ago, and had great difficulty in getting the 
 men to even contribute enough material to make it an 8-page edition. Today 
 we have a great deal of difficulty in crowding all the material which the men send 
 us into 24 to 40 pages per week. Recently, for economical reasons, we have cut 
 down the paper to every other week, which makes it next to impossible to publish 
 all the material sent in. That comes from all classes of men within our plant, and 
 the material which they send in is increasingly constructive and useful. We find 
 that there is no better medium to express to our employees the desires of the 
 management, and for the employees to express their desires to the management 
 than through the columns of our paper. 
 
 Two years ago we started a series of editorials, and decided to base these 
 upon a statement of the President. When he said: "The operating policy of this 
 company is to organize through spirit and enthusiasm to the point of maximum 
 efficiency," we took that sentence and tried to develop it in a series of editorials 
 which appeared upon the second page qf the paper. We gradually got the men to 
 realize that if they would open their plant paper and turn to the second page they 
 would find something there that \vas really for them. Now we know that when a 
 man gets his paper the first thing he does is to turn to the second page, because we 
 make a point of putting something that he is after on that page. We developed 
 this idea and went on to show that it was just common, ordinary, e very-day stable 
 thinking, as someone said yesterday horse sense and we stated these principles 
 as simply as we could. 
 
 39
 
 524 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 This went on for about a year. Then we embodied these editorials in a small 
 booklet called, "What Spanish River Stands For." The Manager of Manufac- 
 turing wrote a letter to all the employees of the mills and the Manager of the 
 Woods Department wrote a similar letter to the woods employees. These 
 booklets were given out to the employees with the pay cheques. We wanted 
 to make sure that the men understood the policy of the company first ; then we 
 decided to follow that up with a small book on plant councils. 
 
 The Department of Industrial Relations of our Company made an investiga- 
 tion in the United States and Canada and Great Britain of various plant councils, 
 in order to get at the meat of the subject, and the result of their investigations was 
 also published with a letter from the manager, and given out to each of the em- 
 ployees. We were looking, of course, all the time to the establishment of indus- 
 trial councils, which we believe will bring together in one group all the matters 
 which concern the relations of the men to the company. 
 
 We did not want to put this plan into operation until we were absolutely 
 convinced that the majority of our employees, both in the office and in the mills, 
 really wanted an industrial council. We realized that some companies had put 
 councils into effect because they felt that certain difficulties were impending, and 
 that if a council was in operation it might ward off some of those difficulties. We 
 had no difficulties to ward off; therefore, we could proceed with education, and 
 slowly. The manager of the company might have said to the superintendents: 
 "We are going to put into operation an industrial council and we want you to 
 back it up." And they would probably have said: "All right we will do it." 
 But that is, you might say, a bit autocratic. He could say: "We are going to 
 do it now. Come on." Or he could say: "We desire to do it, but don't want 
 to do it until you are all convinced that it is a good thing." That is our whole 
 theory. We have not councils today. 
 
 As I said in the beginning, we feel that we are merely on the fringe of the 
 problem. If our employees change from week to week and month to month and- 
 our labour turn-over is very high, we cannot expect to put into operation certain 
 plans which must have the backing of the older employees that is those men 
 who really think -so we must first of all build up a group of men who understand 
 the policies of the company; and that cannot be done over night. 
 
 Some people think tha f , kind of thing can be done m a very brief time; but 
 to take a group ct reactionary men not that they are all reactionary, but there 
 are a number of men today who have been brought up in the old school and who 
 do not desire to see any change and to expect to change them over night is too 
 much. It can only be done by the process of education. The ideas of the Pre- 
 sident must filter through to the very lowest sub-foreman, because, to the men, 
 he is the company. 
 
 You, of course, have all heard organized labour leaders say that if you give 
 the men an opportunity to express themselves and show what really is in their 
 heads, they will do it. Going on that theory we decided that if we were to have 
 plant councils which is the ultimate as far as our present plan is concerned 
 then the men should certainly be abfe to handle simple things such as a voluntary 
 relief association or safety or first aid. So we started them on the ABC of this. 
 We have a first aid equipment and corps and in one mill it is going better than 
 in another and I am very much in hopes that in the course, of the next year 
 we will be able to put the thing on a very firm and lasting basis. 
 
 Of course, a Christmas present is a good thing, we believe; therefore we 
 give the employees a Christmas present of a day's pay for Christmas day plus 
 $2.00 for every year they have been with the company and that is appreciated. 
 
 40
 
 MAECH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 525 
 
 Each year we have the President's annual banquet, which I believe, is the 
 greatest event for the men in the Spanish River calendar. We asked the employees 
 in each plant to elect from their own number a certain number of men in one 
 mill 21, in another 16, and in a third mill 14 based upon the number of men 
 in the plant. These men, when they are elected by a vote, elect from their 
 number a speaker. That speaker is assigned a subject which works in with the 
 general plan of the banquet. These men come to the banquet at the expense of 
 the company. As I said, this year we had the honour of having Senator Robertson 
 as our chief speaker. Mr. Mead presided at the banquet. These speakers from 
 the three mills are expected to represent the views of the men in their respective 
 mills. This year the speeches made by these men were first read to a mass 
 meeting of the men, and approved by them, before they were delivered at the 
 banquet. In that way we know exactly how the employees feel. It is a great 
 feed, and they have lots of songs. The fellows write parodies, and we have an 
 orchestra and a song leader, and they enter into the spirit of the occasion with a 
 great deal of enthusiasm. We believe the banquet is very much worth while in 
 binding together all departments from the management down the sales end the 
 woods department, and the operation. 
 
 We believe that simplicity in these plans is really essential, and that the 
 more simple they are the more workable they will be. Our outline for industrial 
 councils has been worked out to fit entirely with the men. They have made their 
 suggestions. We do not propose to put this into operation until it is exactly as 
 they all want it to be. It must be approved by the manager and then by the 
 men, and we want them to have just as much voice in it as we have. I believe 
 it is going to work out. 
 
 As I said in the beginning, we have labour agreements covering wages and 
 grievances, hence the questions of wages and grievances will pro bably never 
 come up in the industrial council. They would be worked out with the regular 
 committees of the unions and the International officers. The matters, therefore, 
 that would come up before the industrial council would be more constructive * 
 matters. I know that if I thought the council were merely for the purpose of 
 settling such matters, and that we were to scrap over little points that do not 
 mean anything, I would not be as enthusiastic as I am. I believe that if we 
 handle these matters of wages and hours and working conditions as we always 
 have handled them, and turn our councils into constructive bodies, we will 
 really get more of what is in the minds of the workers. 
 
 I will just give you an idea of some of the subjects that might be dealt with 
 this, of course, is in anticipation; this is all theory we put first the desire to 
 improve production; then there are working conditions, employees' safety, 
 education, health and recreation. We believe that through these councils we 
 are going to get ideas from the men as to the improvement of production; and 
 our councils, we hope, will be taken up with the discussion of these things which 
 have to do with the operation of the business. We have planned for each council 
 meeting in each mill. For instance, next week at the Sturgeon Falls mill the 
 hydraulic engineer will give a talk on hydraulic engineering in as simple language 
 as possible, showing the men the plans of the company as regards water-power. 
 The next week at Espanola the cost engineer will give a talk on costs. At our 
 Soo mill the following week the assistant to the manager commercially wi 1 give 
 a talk on the simple details of running the manager's office. We start very simply, 
 with something they can understand. This would provide for each monthly 
 meeting of the council. That is the plan upon which we will work when the 
 employees have decided that they want to go ahead with the council idea. 
 
 I am convinced that the majority of our men are ready to proceed at any 
 time we are ready. There is, however, one of our mills in which the emplo3 r ees 
 
 41
 
 f)26 THE LABOUE GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 have told us that they are not ready to proceed; therefore we must go ahead and 
 give these men further information. 
 
 I believe I have covered the general idea of the Spanish River Pulp & Paper 
 Mills with regard to our preliminary work in relation to industrial councils. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown): Is there any question that any one would 
 like to ask arising our of Mr. Olzendam's address ? 
 
 MR. STEVENSON: I should like to find out if the Spanish River Co. have 
 had any expression of opinion from the unions with whom they do business as 
 to the formation of these councils. Has there been any opposition, or do you 
 anticipate any difficulty in that line ? 
 
 MR. OLZENDAM: We went into that matter very carefully because we 
 wanted to make sure there would be no obstacles in the way of the councils. 
 Therefore we have seen personally the Presidents of the two International 
 Unions. We discussed with them our various plans, outlining in detail every- 
 thing we proposed to do, and asked what they thought, and we secured from 
 them letters to their various orders saying that they heartily approved the 
 Spanish River idea of councils, and desired that their men should do everything; 
 possible to advance the councils. 
 
 Discussion on the Subject of Plant Magazines etc. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown) : Mr. Olzendam has spoken at some length 
 on the preparation of the field through the publication of material. Is there 
 anyone who would like to speak particularly to that point f It is an important 
 one. 
 
 MR. YOUNG : Speaking to the point of publicity, I may say that during- 
 the past year we have had a very interesting development directly attributable 
 to the works council. At 17 of our plants we have works magazines. In each 
 case the name of the magazine has been chosen under the direction of a com- 
 mittee of the works council, and a small money prize for the best name for 
 the publication has resulted in selling the idea to the employees generally. 
 Some of the names have a great deal of merit. At one of our wagon factories- 
 the name chosen was, "The Spoke and Tongue." At Auburn, a twine mill and 
 tillage plant, the names "Tillage and Twine," the letters T. N. T. being- 
 emphasized. At the tractor works they have "The Tractor Interester," the last 
 word being accentuated and coming from the name of the company. St. Paul chose 
 the name ' ' 50-50. ' ' We originally had two magazines at Hamilton ; the Hamil- 
 ton Plowman and the Harvester Bulletin. About 30 per cent of the contents, never 
 more, may be classified as propaganda. We restrict ourselves to that, and seldom 
 exceed 20 per cent of the total. We try to make each magazine carry as much 
 of a local punch as possible, and publish all the plant gossip we can get 
 through the associate editors. There is in the Chicago office an editor-in-chief 
 of all publications, and at each plant there is a local editor. Each council 
 has a publicity committee which functions regularly in the preparation of 
 minutes.. The duty of the secretary is to get verbatim minutes and from them 
 to prepare a brief summary. This is not verbatim, and it is not issued until 
 it has been approved by the works committee; but in all our plants the fifty- 
 fifty balance is preserved. Originally we distributed the works council minutes 
 as a bulletin. We mimeographed a number of copies giving each employee re- 
 presentative one, or two, or three, or five copies and put them on the plant 
 bulletin board. That method was not conducive to the widest publicity. Men 
 would not stop long enough to go through the several pages, or at noon they 
 
 42
 
 MARCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 527 
 
 would congregate round the bulletin boards in such numbers that it was not 
 possible for all of them to read the minutes. So, as we were anxious to get them 
 into the hands of every employee, the plant magazines came as the natural fruit 
 of the plan. They have been somewhat expensive. Last month our average 
 cost of publication was 8 cents per copy, which is the cheapest month we have 
 had, some of the individual publications for small plants having run as high as 
 15 or 16 cents. In the year 1920 we spent $41,000 for the publication of our 
 plant magazines, which is an expenditure of about one dollar per year per em- 
 ployee. It is not probable that the cost will go higher than that this year,, 
 although last year we did not publish plant magazines throughout the whole year 
 at each of the plants. We feel that this expenditure is thoroughly justified,, 
 because it is a strong factor in making that point of contact between the men 
 and the management which is lost through the introduction of big business. 
 
 We have many requests for the magazines. Some thought at first that we 
 would find many magazines scattered about the plant or thrown away. I have 
 repeatedly asked to have a check made of that, and we have yet to find a single 
 copy that has been thrown away. We scale the number of our magazines very 
 carefully with the number of employees in the plant, and we are always under- 
 sold because many employees wish copies to send to friends or to fellows who 
 have left the service. Our mailing list is growing, and it is getting to be quite 
 a problem. I believe, however, that we will have authority to increase the num- 
 ber published, and can carry on our mailing lists men who have been laid off,, 
 and will probably come back when business becomes normal again. 
 
 I think our development has been more sound than it would have been if 
 we had simply adopted a general company policy and started the publications 
 without reference to the men, and particularly without provision for local and 
 sub-departmental editors. 
 
 MB. SINCLAIR: The Imperial Oil Company are fully conscious of the 
 importance of this matter of publicity, and are of the opinion that it affords a 
 very successful and effective means of coming into contact with each of the 
 employees. We have found that we are able to establish very cordial relations 
 between the heads of departments and our employees by means of papers and 
 publicity. In each of the councils we have two copies made of the full minutes, 
 one remaining for the employees in the plant. This is put up in a prominent 
 place and is read very carefully. The other copy goes to the office at Toronto, 
 where it is gone over very carefully and is answered by a letter speaking more 
 or less intimately and directly to the men through the superintendent. In that 
 connection there was a request from loco to publish a copy of the minutes of 
 the plant in our "Review." We felt, however, that this might not be wise, as 
 those minutes relate to a particular council and to a certain extent are private. 
 I have here a copy of the plant paper, the "loco Times" in which word is sent 
 from the President, the vice-President, and the manager and some of the directors 
 as well as myself, which in a very intimate way brings us into cordial relations 
 with the men. 
 
 There is no hesitation on the part of the men in conducting this paper. 
 They feel that it is a real bond of union between them. 
 
 Then we have what is called the "Sales Motor," which of course refers 
 more particularly to the marketing division. 
 
 In addition to these we have what we call the "Imperial Oil Review," 
 which I think is a very fine means of communication with our men. We have 
 7,400 of these printed 12 times a year. We expend about 16 cents a copy on it, 
 
 43
 
 528 THE LABOTJB GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 which would bring the cost up to something between $2 and $2.50 per year. 
 We send this out to all our employees, and in addition we have a mailing list con- 
 taining the names of the leading men of Canada to whom we send it as well. 
 
 I am finding that the "Review" is a splendid means of bringing about co- 
 operation and of bringing to the attention of the men such matters as annuities, 
 insurance, sickness and accident disability. I can corroborate what Mr. Young 
 has said, that these publications are eagerly looked forward to. They are snatched 
 up by the men, who take them home and read them, and even keep them, in that 
 way showing their interest. 
 
 When this matter was brought to the attention of the French people in 
 Quebec, for whom our company always has a very high respect, because we 
 realize we are all Canadians and that if this country of ours is to arrive at that 
 stage of development which we desire it must be through the cordial co- 
 operation of all of us, French and English, Catholic and Protestant, labour and 
 capital it was decided to publish a copy in French. This plan was adopted 
 so that they would understand that there was no nigger in the fence, and it was 
 thought by this means we could speak to them in a very effective way. This 
 publication brought before them intimately the outline of our plan of annuities 
 and insurance and sickness and accident disabilities. We found that this was 
 worth while. It was an expensive procedure and cost us a great deal of money 
 and a good deal of work. We have a man at the head of this work who gives 
 a great deal of his time to the carrying on of this publication; and although, 
 as I have said, it costs a good deal of money, we feel that it is worth while, and 
 I believe that as days go by we will realize how effective a means it is of bringing 
 ourselves into intimate touch with the men. 
 
 MB. WINTER: Do I understand that it is the practice of the Imperial Oil 
 Company to issue a French copy of their magazine at the same time the other 
 one is issued? 
 
 MR. SINCLAIR : We had this one copy in which the details of the plan were 
 fully outlined in order that the French people might understand the details of 
 it. We thought it was worth while to print a separate copy, and if the Depart- 
 ment would like to have it I have one here that I would like to present to them. 
 
 MR. WINTER : That is one of the very difficult questions asked by companies 
 who have a large number of French-speaking people in their employ. The Bell 
 Telephone Company has been considering for some time the publication of a 
 magazine, and that is one of the points that we have thought would be very 
 difficult to deal with, as there is not a sufficient number of French employees 
 to warrant the publication being printed in the two languages. 
 
 MR. CHING: Mr. Chairman, speaking of printing magazines in various 
 languages, we have a plant where there are employees of possibly 46 different 
 nationalities. We printed some parts of plant papers in French, Italian, 
 Portuguese and other languages. There is one place where we printed a part 
 of our paper in Polish, one side in English and the other in Polish. 
 
 MR. JOHN R. FRYE: Would you like to know what we are doing along the 
 lines of publicity? 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes; I think we would all be interested in a statement 
 of your company's attitude toward publicity, Mr. Frye. 
 
 MR. FRYE : We have in our company one publication, which is known as 
 ''The Dominion." This paper is more along the lines of a house organ, and 
 goes to the heads of departments, foremen, salesmen, etc., but does not go direct 
 to the employees themselves. I believe that in the past history of the Con- 
 
 44
 
 MAECH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 529 
 
 solidated Rubber they have had several other publications which were issued 
 at the plants, but each one of those in turn seems to have died out. I believe 
 in the publication of these papers, but I have had it in the back of my mind 
 since we have gone into this industrial council work and had this planned out, 
 that the management should not announce or go ahead with the proposition of 
 putting out plant papers until such time as the employees or the factory council 
 in any one plant feel the need of the factory paper. We are waiting for 
 the time to come when the factory councils feel that they will want to get behind 
 their own plant paper. I think that when that time comes there will be no 
 trouble in the company coming across and helping out at the financial end. 
 
 Along the lines of publicity in the plant, notes of all of our factory council 
 meetings are taken practically verbatim, and these are transcribed the morning 
 after the meeting. The industrial relations man at the plant summarizes the 
 minutes. The reports are examined by the secretary of the employees on the 
 factory council; they are approved by the secretaries of the committee which- 
 ever committee happens to be reporting one for the employees and one for 
 the management. With regard to all of our factory council minutes I have 
 found that at the start our management people were inclined to report the 
 meetings more or less along the lines of a parliamentary form, but in the different 
 plants, one after the other, we have gradually changed the line-up of the factory 
 council minutes in such a way that they are more interesting and readable to 
 the people in the plant. That is, we take up the proceedings by subjects, and 
 instead of reporting on each item in a stilted manner, the record is a sort of 
 narrative, which may be three or four lines or a dozen lines, giving the gist of 
 what was done on that particular subject. These minutes of course are ap- 
 proved, as 'I said before, by the employees' secretary and the management 
 secretary. 
 
 With respect to the factory council minutes and the question of a plant 
 paper, in the line of publicity, we have found that in our factory council minutes 
 there are a great many things which the management wish to place before the 
 employees and which naturally would get before them in the line-up of the 
 factory paper. These different subjects have been taken up at our different 
 factory council meetings and reported and published through our factory council 
 minutes. These minutes are transcribed the next day and they are run through 
 some sort of duplicating machine. Every one of the- employee representatives 
 in the plant and every one of our foremen gets a copy of the report of every 
 single meeting in connection with factory council work. So that all of our manage- 
 ment people and all of our employee representatives, whether they are on the com- 
 mittee or not, are informed of just what went on at the meeting. We also post a 
 large number on bulletin boards throughout the factory. That is about all we 
 do along the lines of interior publicity. 
 
 In regard to exterior publicity, such as write-ups in the newspapers or 
 magazines, we have been very much against any publicity material going out to 
 the magazines or the newspapers in connection with the work of the council; 
 not because we are ashamed of it in any way, but because we want to be absolutely 
 sure of ourselves and work this thing out first. 
 
 In connection with personnel work, I believe that when you start a factory 
 council in a plant you absolutely require in the plant, besides the manager or 
 the superintendent, a broad-minded man to give this his undivided attention. 
 The duties and interests of the manager or the superintendent are of course 
 intensive in some plants, and varied. It is not enough to have a good set of 
 by-laws for the factory council, to have done a great deal of educational work 
 
 45
 
 530 THE LABOUE GAZETTE MAKCH, 1921 
 
 with your people and to have your management people lined up in pretty 
 good order ; it is necessary also to have somebody who is right on the job to see 
 that the thing is carried through in a proper manner. We have in all of our 
 plants somebody who is responsible for the details, such as preparing for the 
 meetings. There are any number of little subjects coming up which there is no 
 use in having come before a factory council meeting. Such matters are taken 
 up in the same way as Mr. Day takes them up with the foreman. He is a sort 
 of balance wheel to the foreman. He tells him to soft pedal some particular 
 action ; that he is going a little too far in a certain direction. And he acts in 
 a similar way towards the employees. He has to be very close to the employees 
 and help them to line up and get the proper result out of their factory council. 
 In some of our plants we have a man who gives full time to this, and in smaller 
 plants a man who gives just part time. 
 
 MR. MACLACHLAN : There is one point I would like to bring out. Yesterday 
 the speakers referred to the fact that we were completing a cycle. 
 
 The plant councils which have been described have been in effect for six 
 months or over, very few having been put in effect since the period of depression 
 commenced. I think it would be well for us, and for the companies that may 
 be interesting themselves in plant councils to show something of the advisability 
 of instituting plant councils at the present time, when most of the points to be 
 discussed, wages and hours, will likely be in regard to lowering wages rather 
 than raising them, and shortening hours rather than increasing them, which 
 were the questions discussed some six months ago. 
 
 MR. CHING: Mr. Maclachlan has injected a very vital question into the 
 discussion, and if I may be permitted to answer I will say just what I said 
 yesterday. When you get a group of people together and place facts before 
 them, you need not fear the results. Let us not get any mystery attached to 
 this thing. Let us realize that it is merely a question of placing our views 
 before our employees and giving them an opportunity of placing their views 
 before us. If it comes to a reduction of wages or a lay-off, it is much better 
 to do it through these means than to post a cold notice on the walls that wages 
 are reduced to so-and-so, or that so many people are to be laid off. It is merely a 
 case of getting together and explaining the circumstances, and when the facts 
 are placed before the men I have not any fear of the results. Of course, it 
 is not all plain and easy feailing. You are going to have your arguments across 
 the board. You are going to have some good hot ones. Don 't think that because 
 you go into these councils everything is going to be smoothed out. You are 
 taking on an additional burden, but you will always know where you stand and 
 the other fellow will know also. 
 
 There is just one other point. It is very easy for us here, who are re- 
 presenting large companies, to discuss various plans of group insurance, an- 
 nuities, profit-sharing, and all the other things that have been put into effect 
 by large companies. But consider the situation in the United States. There, 
 95 per cent of the employers employ less than 250 persons. I believe only 
 about three per cent employ more than 1,000 people. That is one side of the 
 picture. Now, consider the other side. About 33 per cent of the employed are 
 in plants having over 1,000 employees. I have always thought that there is a 
 tendency in a conference such as this to look at the thing from the viewpoint of the 
 large employer or the large corporation, whereas, in many cases, the difficulty 
 starts in the small plants where you have, I may say, the autocratic boss, 
 the fellow who knows the business and is going to have his own way. Let us 
 also consider that in Canada there are also many small employers, and that 
 
 46
 
 MAEOH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 531 
 
 we must not attempt to outline an industrial relations policy solely from the view- 
 point of the large employer. If I were called upon to define an industrial rela- 
 tions policy my definition would be this: an industrial relations policy is that 
 policy which will work where it is applied. 
 
 MR. COFFEY : I think Mr. Ching has raised a very good point indeed. Yes- 
 terday when I spoke with regard to the industrial council that we had in 
 operation at our plant, I was speaking of what I think we may call a small plant. 
 It is very interesting to hear of the wonderful schemes that some of the large 
 organizations have ; but I agree with Mr. Ching that the size and nature of the 
 organization have a very definite bearing on the policy with regard to welfare 
 - activities. I know that so far as our organization is concerned we cannot very 
 seriously consider some of the schemes adopted by the larger corporations. 
 
 I think the point raised by Mr. Maclachlan, and afterwards to some 
 extent by Mr. Ching, is a very important one to consider. It really boils down to 
 the question of confidence and contact, and if you have the right kind of contact 
 I think you can solve anything. There is one thing of which I am absolutely 
 sure, and that is that a small organization considering industrial councils ought 
 to have very clear ideas as to where they should go and how far. I would certainly 
 deprecate any idea of recommending that the small organizations should get 
 into the field which has been entered upon by some of the larger organizations. 
 That is a matter which is really open to debate. One feels sometimes that these 
 problems ought to be tackled, but the difficulty is to know what to do and how 
 to solve them. I think the questions of insurance and pensions for instance are 
 very debatable ones, as to whether it is the function of industry to take care of 
 such matters or as to whether it is the duty of the state or community. 
 
 One thing, of which I am absolutely sure, is that we have to get back again 
 to the idea of imbuing every representative of the management side of the plan 
 with the spirit of representing the company to his fellow workers. If that spirit 
 prevails, we will solve our problems. 
 
 Proposal for Annual Conference on Industrial Relations. 
 
 MR. OLZENDAM: The thought occurred to me that it might be possible and 
 it might be a good idea to form all the gentlemen present at this time this, is 
 merely a suggestion into a Canadian Industrial Relations Council, to gather 
 information together from time to time and perhaps to put on a firm basis these 
 yearly gatherings. 
 
 MR. MACLACHLAN: May I suggest that a number of us here are members 
 of such a council in the city of Toronto. It was organized, I think, some two 
 years ago, and we have had the pleasure of sitting in at various association 
 meetings in the United States. I think the meetings in Toronto have been 
 very beneficial. I think that possibly in other centres such a meeting together 
 would be very beneficial. I think the meeting together on a national basis to 
 simply discuss the matter between the large companies and the small companies, 
 not forgetting that a number of these problems cannot be tackled by the smaller 
 companies, would be of great benefit and that the suggestion put forward is 
 worthy of serious consideration. 
 
 The association in Toronto is composed primarily of those interested in 
 personnel work, particularly on the employers' side. It is divided into two dis- 
 tinct classes of members. Class "A" members have to be connected with a 
 manufacturing or other type of plant; Class "B" members may be engineers, 
 such as I am, or college professors, departmental officials, or others interested in 
 personnel matters. The officers of the association must be class "A" members. 
 
 47
 
 532 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 They hold meetings in Toronto once a month, I think, from October to May, and 
 discuss such subjects as I have already mentioned; accident prevention, medical 
 service, cost accounting, employment records, methods of employment and 
 industrial councils. The attendance at these meetings would average, I think, 
 about forty. I believe most of the employers of Toronto who are engaged in 
 personnel work are members of the association, some of them being here to-day; 
 there, of course, being many others. 
 
 The chief benefit of the association has been the discussion of problems that 
 worked intimately into the daily routine of the men engaged. We have been 
 discussing the broad principles, but they discuss the means of working out 
 policies that have been laid down. Certain phases have been taken up; for 
 instance, during the flu epidemic of last year I gave them a paper on the method 
 of handling a flu epidemic in a city among their employees, and other different 
 subjects have been taken up. They have gone outside their -own association at 
 times for speakers. Mr. Tom Moore spoke on the question of organized labour 
 in industry. Other outside speakers have come in from time to time. 
 
 It is purely an association for the discussion of problems intimately con- 
 nected with the routine of the various members, and, I think, has served a very 
 useful function in carrying on that work. It was originally The Employment 
 Managers' Association, but it was felt that that name should be changed to the 
 Industrial Relations Association, and the change of name was put into effect. 
 I think that in any large centre where there are a number of organizations in- 
 terested in personnel work, it serves a very useful meeting place for the men 
 connected with that work, so that they may discuss their problems as they 
 come up. 
 
 The secretary of the Association is G. W. Allan, Care of the Consumers' 
 Gas Company, 19 Toronto Street. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brown): I desire to state on behalf of the Minister 
 of Labour, that we welcome the study and investigation of this whole subject, 
 feeling that it cannot be otherwise than helpful, and we would welcome the 
 extension of these study groups from one centre to another, and would be glad 
 to assist in any way possible in furthering the work. 
 
 MR. CHING: I wish I could adequately express my appreciation to Senator 
 Robertson and to the Department of Labour for the opportunity of being here, 
 and I want you, Sir, to understand that I personally appreciate it more than 
 I can tell, and the people that I represent also appreciate it. It has given me an 
 entirely new view of the Department of Labour. I have seen the broad-minded- 
 ness and the wonderful spirit of co-operation exhibited by the Minister of 
 Labour and the members of his department, and it makes me very proud of 
 my home land. 
 
 In connection with the matter that has been brought up, I think you have 
 here in Canada your organization; I think it sits at the head of the table. I 
 think you have your opportunity for accumulating and distributing information 
 and I have full confidence in the ability of the Department of Labour to carry 
 on the constructive and co-operative work that has been started here. 
 
 THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: I am sure the Department, particularly so 
 long as I have anything to do with it, will be delighted to be the convener of a 
 gathering such as this, at least annually, if you feel that we would not be imposing 
 upon your principals. I think such a gathering would serve a very useful purpose, 
 and that by means of -it we could from year to year gauge the measure of pro- 
 gress flowing from the efforts we are all endeavouring to make; and that, when 
 we realize what has been done by probably 12 or 15 large concerns in Canada 
 during the past 18 months or so some of them having more recently commenced 
 
 48
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 538, 
 
 we could come back here a year hence and see a picture that would be very 
 encouraging to us all. I think it is very important, that strenuous efforts along 
 this line should be made during a period such as that through which we are now 
 passing even more necessary than in a prosperous time when everything 
 is on the ascending scale. If there is no objection, we can just assume that a 
 year hence, another conference of this sort, perhaps on a larger scale, may meet 
 just as we have met now. And before you leave to-day, may I suggest that if in 
 your minds it would be useful for the guidance of both employers and workmen 
 throughout Canada that this delegation of employees engaged specially in this 
 work the desire of every one of you being to promote the best interests of both 
 employers and workmen should by resolution place your views in concrete 
 form, it would be of aid to others in reaching a decision as to their future conduct 
 respecting this question. 
 
 MR. COFFEY: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity of en- 
 dorsing Mr. Ching's remarks. At the same time, I should like to say a word in 
 support of what has been said by Mr. Maclachlan. Mr. Maclachlan did very 
 valuable work in the organizirg committee of the Industrial Relations Asso- 
 ciation of Toronto. It was the feeling of most of us, and our desire, that we should 
 some day in the not too dim and distant future see orgmizitions scittered 
 throughout Canada, so that ultimately there would be nation-wide orgimzitions 
 of men who were interested in personnel work of every kind. The work done in 
 Toronto in the If st two years has been wonderfully inspiring, and it is my hope> 
 and I know it is Mr. Maclachlan's, that that work may supplement any work 
 that an annual gathering like this might do. I think it was with that spirit and 
 with that ideal that Toronto in supporting work of that kind added something to 
 the accomplishment of industrial relations in Canada. I know the officials of that 
 organization would gladly help in any way possible any group or section or any 
 individual manufacturer. I know full records are available for any interested 
 parties, whether on the side of labour or on the side of capital, and that we will 
 gladly supply any information to anyone who desires it. 
 
 DR. SINCLAIR: Mr. Chairman, I also bear willing testimony to the fine 
 piece of work carried ou by this Industrial Organization in Toronto. 
 
 I think we are particularly indebted to the Hon. Senator for the very careful , 
 comprehensive and wise statement made by him. I feel too that the suggestion 
 that we should carry on from year to year is a wise one. It does appear to me 
 that this piece of work, if it is to be nation-wide and it should be nation-wide 
 should very properly come under the guidance of the Department of Labour. 
 We are particularly fortunate in having at the head of this department a man 
 who is appreciative of both sides of the question. In reference to the question 
 that Senator Robertson raised as to the spirit that exists between the industrial 
 councils and organized labour, he used the very careful word "antidote." As I 
 understand it, organized labour has in mind the betterment of the conditions 
 of the workingman. That is the ultimate end of all their operations. That is 
 the main idea also of the industrial councils. We are both headed towards the 
 same goal, and we are both sincere, I think. We want to be frank; and if that is 
 the case there ought to be no antagonism, no opposition on the part of either 
 of these organizations to the other. I believe, after an experience of two years 
 and over of the workings of these industrial councils in our own plants, that a very 
 important contribution has been made to the solution of the labour question. 
 I am aware of the fact that in certain circles in organized labour there has been 
 some suspicion, and perhaps a lack of enthusiasm in regard to industrial councils. 
 That is because of lack of education, but I believe that when education along 
 these lines has become general, when the facts are known, we will all realize 
 that there should be no antagonism to these organizations that are working 
 
 49
 
 534 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 to the betterment of the economic conditions of the country. My own feeling is 
 that there is a fear that industrial councils give a certain amount of control to 
 the management. In our own plant we have not any arbitration clause, but we 
 have found, gentlemen, that we have had two years of success. There has been 
 harmony, and there has been a growing and continued growth of con- ' 
 fidence. If the time should come when the matter of arbitration ought to be 
 considered, we will cross the bridge when we come to the stream. We have found 
 that the longer a man is in the employ of the company the greater is his loyalty 
 and efficiency. There are bound to be a certain number of men who, because of 
 lack of experience or because of a certain development or temperament, do not 
 take kindly to it, but these men are becoming educated to it. I feel that the 
 statement of the Senator has gone to the crux of the situation. I feel, as Mr. 
 Ching has said, that it would be a good thing if this work were carried on under 
 the conduct of the Minister of Labour, and I associate myself with that idea 
 most heartily. 
 
 MR. MACLACHLAN: I have been trying to be brief, and I think perhaps my 
 error is in being too brief in the proposition that I put forward. The smaller 
 companies possibly cannot afford to send representatives to attend meetings 
 here, even annually. In Toronto, the meetings are held weekly to discuss intimate 
 problems, such as visiting nurses, physicians, accident prevention, and so on, 
 with which time should not be taken up here. Those questions could be taken up 
 with a great deal of benefit to all concerned. No doubt annual meetings of this 
 kind, convened by the Minister of Labour, are a great benefit to Canadian 
 industry as a whole. Having worked with the Department for some two or 
 three years, I know very well what has been done by the present Minister of 
 Labour in developing Canadian industry. 
 
 In speaking of another point that I raised, I. had no doubt in my own mind 
 as to the advantage of councils, even during a period of depression, but I thought 
 it would be well to bring out the ideas expressed by Mr. Ching and others, for 
 the benefit of some industrial leaders who were not sold on the idea of industrial 
 councils during the period when the wages were going up, that now, when the 
 shoe is on the other foot, possibly might be no time to put them into effect. 
 Personally, I feel that this is a far more opportune time to put them into effect 
 than previously. 
 
 MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, I ask for your further indulgence in order to 
 say a few words. I am here as your invited guest from across the line, and 
 because of that, and because I am a citizen of the United States and can^claim 
 no Canadian connections, perhaps I can speak just a little freely on the subject 
 we have had under discussion as to a possible conflict between the Industrial 
 Relations Association of America and the continuation of conferences such as 
 we have had here. 
 
 It has only been since I have been with the International Harvester Com- 
 pany that I have got across the line at all. I remember in my school days the 
 United States was printed in pink in the geography, and Canada was printed 
 in pale yellow. When I came across the line I looked for the dividing line, but 
 I have yet to see any difference either in the country or in the character of the 
 people. We are all of a common race, and, I am sure, will want to continue as 
 such. The Industrial. Relations Association of America, as I see it, is more con- 
 cerned with the intimate tactics of carrying on the personal relationship than with 
 developing a strategy so far as local meetings are concerned, and I want to say to 
 you gentlemen of Canada that you are missing one big, fine opportunity if you 
 allow to go unheeded the invitation of your Minister of Labour to continue such 
 conferences as we have had here or fail to lend him not only your assistance but 
 your.active and hearty support in the programme which he has laid out. 
 
 50
 
 MAEOH, 1921 THE LABOUB GAZETTE 535 
 
 The Industrial Relations Association of America has been in existence for 
 some time, and yet it has not been called upon by the government to function 
 along such lines as have been suggested here. I would like to suggest, Sir, that 
 after all the two proposals made are not competitive but rather supplementary, 
 the one to the other. I think the Industrial Relations Association will extend its 
 work in Canada. I believe there will be in other communities, just as there is in 
 Toronto, a grouping together of the men interested in personnel work for the 
 exchanging of views and counsel as the development and furtherance of high 
 ideals. 
 
 At the present time the only large clearing house seems to be the National 
 Industrial Relations Association of America. I hope it will be international. 
 It would well serve the Department of Labour in carrying out the programme 
 which you have in mind, and I am sure you will always meet with an instant 
 response from it. In the meantime you have an opportunity of taking advantage 
 of this contact that has been established, and I would urge that if you have the 
 certain broad strategy that you wish to develop you should feel free to call upon 
 the people here and others with whom you come in contact. 
 
 I wish I could express as eloquently as Mr. Ching has done the pleasure that 
 I feel, as a stranger from across the line, in being invited to attend this conference. 
 It is only attempting to paint the lily to tell you how much bigger labour can be 
 made by such contacts as this. I shall go back to Chicago with the feeling that 
 I have greatly profited, and shall have in the future, even more than in the past, 
 an earnest and sincere desire to co-operate with you to the fullest extent of my 
 ability. 
 
 Statement of Mr. Quirk regarding the Operation of Joint Councils. 
 
 MR. QUIRK: Mr. Chairman, in the discussion before the conference to-day 
 you have referred to communications from various employers and it has occurred 
 to me that it might be of interest to tell what the other side thinks of industrial 
 councils. There have been brief quotations of the opinions as expressed by the 
 employees, but I rise to add from my own personal knowledge some opinions ex- 
 pressed by the employees in reference to works councils. The Minister himself 
 assigned me to the duty of investigating this question, and, to be perfectly frank, 
 I was not so much interested in what was said by the employers, because they 
 can take care of themselves, and have an opportunity of expressing their opinions. 
 Being anxious to determine the truth as to this work , I asked some of the 
 gentlemen if they would allow me to come in personal contact with their em- 
 ployees, and I would like to express my appreciation of the courtesy and frank- 
 ness of the way in which these gentlemen said: "Go and have all the talk you 
 like with them." I had an opportunity of meeting the employees in many com- 
 panies probably not as many as I would have liked and the opinion which I 
 arrived at as to what the employees think is probably expressed as well as it could 
 be expressed in the words: "Works councils remove all grounds for dissatisfac- 
 tion, suspicion and discontent." Those to whom I spoke were men with long 
 records, one having a record of eighteen years, one ten years, and one four 
 years. They expressed their opinions freely, and the essence of what they said 
 was: "We have removed suspicion." This impressed me more than anything 
 else, and I mention if for the purpose of corroborating what has been said as to 
 the success on industrial councils. 
 
 General Discussion on Value of Personnel Work, Etc. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN (Mr Brown): I think we would perhaps be interested in 
 hearing from Mr. Young and Mr. Ching as to the value of the personnel work or 
 
 61
 
 536 THE LABOTJB GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 any other feature of the work which is being done in corporations in the United 
 States, as well as from any among our own people here who would like to bring 
 out this particular phase of the question. We have been discussing the question 
 of publicity, the written word. The Minister, I am sure, would be glad to have 
 on record an expression of views as to the value of personnel work, for instance. 
 Would you, Mr. Young, be good enough to give us your views and the benefit of 
 of your experience on the foregoing subjects ? 
 
 MR. A. H. YOUNG : Mr. Chairman, I outlined in some detail this morning the 
 steps we are taking at our local plants, with regard to publicity, and the thought 
 has been running through my mind as we sat here, "I wonder how you plan to 
 distribute, if at all, the minutes of this meeting." I notice with a great deal of 
 interest the supplement to the LABOUR GAZETTE giving a resume of the status of 
 joint councils in industry, national and international, and I believe it is an ex- 
 tremely valuable document. I have already asked you for a number of copies, 
 which I intend to distribute to friends of mine in other companies as well as to a 
 number of our own personnel men. It is an admirable brief on the subject. I 
 would like to have at hand the expression of Senator Robertson in opening the 
 meeting, and the various talks that he has given us. I have heard a great deal 
 from Mr. Frye, and Mr. Coffey and Mr. Sinclair and the other gentlemen around 
 the table, as I sat here, and have profited greatly by their description of the 
 works in which they are engaged. I wonder if the Department of Labour has 
 in mind the preparation of further supplements of this nature. If the officials 
 of the Department are considering it, I would strongly urge that, if it is at all 
 possible, we be furnished with copies of such publication as you may make of 
 the minutes of this meeting. 
 
 Possibly the Department might care to interest itself in the further 
 development of certain parts of the technique of employment operation, group 
 insurance, co-partnership plans, profit-sharing and all the thousand and one of 
 the various factors that go to make up the complete cycle of industrial relations. 
 I am sure it would be of inestimable value. I would presume to say to you, Mr. 
 Chairman, that undoubtedly the Department would find it of great value in. 
 its own work. 
 
 A question may arise from an employer as to what is the real value of spend- 
 ing a good deal of time, let us say, on the introduction of a new employee into the 
 shop. Yoa know, it is only a short time ago that employment managers were 
 bragging that they hired two or three men a minute. Now the consensus is: 
 changed entirely and we are beginning to boast that it takes two or three hours, 
 two or three days, or two or three weeks at times, properly to install a new man 
 in his job. The more thought we give it, the more commonsense we see and the 
 more dollars and cents of return in this proposition of adequately explaining the 
 company and the organization to an applicant for a position, so that he begins 
 to feel that he is a real human being with a soul and with creative instincts and is 
 recognized as such, rather than a mere cog in a machine. 
 
 On the subject of labour turnover, I do not suppose any single question is 
 more debated than the question of how it ought to be figured. Some people 
 think now that we have had the wrong slant on that ; that we are too much con- 
 cerned with labour turnover and not enough with labour stability. After all, 
 what do we care how many men we have to sift through to get a steady, desirable 
 applicant ? A high labour turnover may be a true indication of effective recruiting 
 rather than proof of poor employment practice, as some people not conversant, 
 with the subject have come to believe. 
 
 52
 
 .MARCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 537 
 
 So on this subject of publicity I would respectfully suggest, Mr. Chair- 
 man, that there might be a means provided I would say, at first thought, by 
 occasional supplements to your very valuable LABOUR GAZETTE whereby there 
 would be available for a rather broad general distribution the minutes of such 
 meetings as this and the analyses and findings of the various investigations of 
 the Department on the technique of personnel work. 
 
 Now, as to the value of that work specifically, I think it is idle to discuss it. 
 It is a condition and not a theory that confronts us. We have had portrayed 
 to us the change that has come about in industry, and in the larger establishments 
 it is al solutely necessary that we provide an organized means of restoring 
 that human relationship which has been lost in industry. Without it, I am quite 
 certain, industry could not have been as well mobilized as it was during the war. 
 We have had our lesson there. We had the crystallization of the national thought 
 on just that subject. Now with the war ended technically ended on this side of 
 the line at least we have come to a realization that as constructive peace 
 measures, not only for international peace, but for industrial peace as well, these 
 things which we began must be continued, must be carried to a greater refinement 
 if we are eventually going to meet the present need of industry for harmony. 
 We now realize that the interests of the employer and the employee are identical ; 
 that if the employees are to be certain of the maximum return for their labour, 
 good working conditions, happiness and prosperity, it must all come from the 
 prosperity of the business itself; and the prosperity of the business cannot be 
 assured to the owner unless he has contented employees who are working with a 
 real feeling that they are serving humanity well in their particular occupations 
 and are happy and satisfied; and he can produce the best line of merchandise 
 or the best quality of manufactured product only if he has the best working 
 conditions and the best working force obtainable, working in a happy frame of 
 mind. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Young. Mr. Ching, would you state your 
 views ? 
 
 MR. CHING : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, Mr. Young, I think, has covered 
 the ground quite thoroughly. It is very well recognized that in practically all 
 of our large industries in the United States personnel work is necessary. The 
 old haphazard way of having the foreman hire and discharge men was, to say 
 the least, inefficient and in many instances inhuman. A foreman is in most in- 
 stances not fitted by his training to select and hire men of the proper type from 
 the broad viewpoint of the company. 
 
 Furthermore ; without some organized personnel work in a plant of any size, 
 you have men coming into a department and going out of that department as un- 
 fit, when as a matter of fact they would be eminently well fitted for some other 
 department in the plant. 
 
 Another important thing in connection with personnel work, that Mr. Young 
 has touched on, is getting the man to feel at home on his job. The employment or 
 industrial relations manager should function in such a way as to make the man 
 feel at home on his job. Assuming that you have the proper man selected for the 
 job, it is necessary to properly introduce him to the job. This may be carried 
 out in various ways; one of which is by having a training school for various 
 operations within a plant. This is, in my opinion, very important in many plants. 
 
 Therefore personnel w"ork, or employment management, or industrial re- 
 lations management by whatever name it is called is becoming so much a 
 part of the industrial organization of our large companies that we are no longer 
 
 53
 
 538 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 discussing it as theory. Especially in council work, such as Mr. Frye has dis- 
 cussed, it is necessary to have a proper organization. And if I may say here 
 something which always makes me see red we have had so many theorists getting 
 into so-called personnel work, we have had so many persons using the idea of 
 personnel work as a profession, that people have been getting away from the 
 commonsense view of it. Personnel work is not a profession at all. To my mind 
 it is a definite part of management. It is necessary to have a good common- 
 sense man in charge of employment and allied matters in a plant. We have found 
 it so from our experience, and I think that more and more of the large employers 
 across the line are adopting the idea. 
 
 As to what the functions of such a man are, that of course depends a great 
 deal on the type of plant. In some plants it may be that the manager or the 
 superintendent may function in that capacity, but there must be someone who 
 feels the responsibility of handling the human element, someone who has that 
 job definitely placed on his shoulders. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN : Answering the point raised by Mr. Young as to publication 
 of our proceedings here it is our definite thought that we should bring out in 
 bulletin form, as a supplement to the LABOUR GAZETTE, a report of this con- 
 ference; not necessarily a verbatim report, but one which would not overlook any 
 important thought which has been contributed to our discussion. 
 
 In addition to the pamphlet of information on Joint Councils in Industry 
 with which we have started, and of which Mr. Young has spoken so kindly, our 
 thought was that we would follow up with a bulletin of a brief kind indicating the 
 different types of councils in existence in Canada. We have, in fact, the material 
 for it on the table here at present. Apart from that, we are at present giving 
 attention to other closely allied subjects, and trust that our publications on these 
 lines will be of assistance. There is a special body in Canada, a very represent- 
 ative body, working under the direction of the Researgh Council, which is going 
 into the subject of industrial fatigue at the present time. The information which 
 is contained in its reports will be made available to the widest possible extent. 
 The subject of apprenticeship and industrial training is one on which I might 
 speak, if I opened up on it, at some length, but I am not going to do so. 
 
 The subject of training for industry is one on which we think we could, per- 
 haps with advantage, bring out a general bulletin. The subject of unemployment 
 insurance is another one in which the Department of Labour is interesting itself 
 from the study point of view. The question was mentioned in the Speech from 
 the Throne. I am not going to dwell on it, but we are at the present time in- 
 vestigating the subject and there probably will be a conference on that special 
 subject in the early future for purposes of information and exchange of views in 
 a preliminary way before any policy is formulated. 
 
 MR. COFFEY: With regard to personnel work in a small plant, I have accom- 
 panying me at this conference Mr. Riggs, who is supervisor of our industrial 
 relations department. Perhaps it would interest you to get an outline of the 
 methods by which we handle our personnel. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly, we would be very glad to hear from Mr. Riggs. 
 
 MR. F. L. RIGGS: Mr. Chairman, some months ago our president was good 
 enough to write for our book of information for employees an article on the 
 history and aspirations of our plant, and I would just like to read a brief extract 
 from his article: 
 
 "The company has always striven to conduct its affairs on sound, conserva- 
 
 54
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 539 
 
 tive business principles. It aims to produce goods which in quality and work- 
 manship are unexcelled and which in service will be the best of their kind." 
 
 And again: "It strives to furnish steady employment to all members of its 
 organization whether in factory, office or selling department, and it desires to 
 advance always those in its service if their qualifications seem to warrant such 
 advance." 
 
 And again: "It also earnestly requests the co-operation of each and every 
 employee to preserve and enhance the good name and reputation of the company, 
 thus promoting the interests of the company and the employees." 
 
 It was realized some time ago that the need and the value of a relations de- 
 partment was a fact and not a theory, and in establishing the department certain 
 functions were set down. They come under the head of employment, factory 
 training, adjustments, working conditions, health and safety, group relations, co- 
 operative activities and general education. This is a rather ambitious pro- 
 gramme, which was adopted about five months ago, and which we realize it will 
 take a great deal of time to work out. 
 
 We feel that one of the chief values of the department is in the research work 
 which it may do, because many of the schemes which have been attempted by 
 larger companies are not applicable to the smaller company, and it is a very 
 serious responsibility to discern between all of these schemes and to see that the 
 schemes which we adopt conform to the ability of the company to finance them 
 and to the needs of the workers, with particular reference to their sex, nationality, 
 and the conditions of work. 
 
 In touching upon the employment of workers, we have adopted schemes 
 which we think will add to the harmony of our relations. We engage the worker ; 
 we endeavour to classify him and by means of job analysis to place him in the 
 work for which he is best fitted. On the other hand we supervise the discharge 
 of employees and endeavour in preparing our turnover figures to have some 
 comprehensive idea of what is in the mind of the man when he feels that he must 
 leave us. 
 
 With respect to group relations, I have the honour to be the secretary on 
 the management side of the factory council, and, as Mr. Coffey has pointed out, 
 the management endeavours merely to encourage plant activities. The Sick 
 Benefit Society, the Athletic Association and various other employee activities 
 are handled by the employees without any interference from the management, 
 we ^nerely giving them such assistance as our facilities afford. 
 
 Under the head of co-operative activities we have included cafeteria, rest- 
 room, legal aid, summer camps, transportation in the event of the city transpor- 
 tation facilities being tied up on account of strike, noon-hour concerts, etc. 
 
 .The programme is an ambitious one, and we do not hope to put it all into 
 effect for some time to come. We may find that conditions will make necessary 
 certain changes in our plan, but we try to bear hi mind always that any attempt 
 which we make to increase the good relations between the company r and the men 
 must have something definite to which to tie. The productivity of the plant is 
 the basis of all our activity, for we feel that unless our work does assist the pro- 
 duction managers, it will of necessity fail in its purpose. 
 
 Recall of Employee's Representative. 
 
 The Chairman : In connection with the operation of joint councils, has 
 any general attention been given to the question of the recall or changing of 
 
 55
 
 540 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MAECH, 1921 
 
 employees' representatives on the joint councils? It is a matter which was 
 brought to our attention at one stage, the question of individual workmen 
 being perhaps no longer representative in their views or acceptable to the 
 employees. Is it a question which any member of the conference would like to 
 speak to? 
 
 MR. FRYE: We have that in our plan. 
 MR. YOUNG: "We have it also. 
 
 MR. FRYE: We have provision in our plan that two-thirds of any group 
 of voters that wish the recall of their employee representative may make a, 
 petition and forward that petition to the executive board of the employee re- 
 presentatives, which is their general chairman and the chairman of their com- 
 mittee. If the executive board of the employee representatives pass favourably 
 on that, the recall goes into effect. This gives a little balance to any recall 
 which may be started without the proper foundation or the proper information.. 
 In case the employees of any group send through a petition for recall, very 
 often the chairman of the executive board can go into that and explain a number 
 of things which the employees of that group did not understand when they 
 started their recall proceedings. 
 
 DR. SINCLAIR : Mr Chairman, I rise just to make a suggestion. In the very* 
 admirable speech of the Minister this morning he suggested that probably it 
 might be thought advisable as a result of our conference to put in some sort of 
 resolution an expression of our views. I feel that there have been some things, 
 said by most of the gentlemen around the table that probably might be wisely 
 put into some sort of statement as an expression of our views, and I would 
 suggest that the following gentlemen retire to formulate some sort of statement 
 that might be submitted to the conference. Then we could discuss it and adopt 
 it, if it is found satisfactory, or amend it. I make the suggestion coupling with 
 it the names of Mr. Coffey, Mr. Frye, Mr. Winter, Mr. Olzendam and Mr. Day.. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN : Is it your pleasure, then, to accept this suggestion ? 
 The suggestion was adopted. 
 
 Effect of Joint Councils on Output. 
 
 MR. DAY: I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, an expression from some of 
 the gentlemen here as to whether or not any contribution has been made* to 
 production from the working of the councils. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: As to the question -of production, we have a brief reference- 
 to the subject in the case of certain Canadian companies in the departmental 
 bulletin on joint councils in industry. It is very brief. It contains no figures. 
 Does anyone desire to speak to that subject? 
 
 MR. WINTER: Mr. Chairman, although it would be a difficult matter in our 
 business in any way to put in figures the additional production that we have 
 obtained through the working out of the plant councils, still we are of the 
 opinion that there has been some improvement in the production of our work 
 owing to the fact that the plant councils have co-operated with the company 
 in the way of agreeing to have less men on certain classes of work, and that those 
 men have actually produced approximately the same as was produced by a 
 greater number of men. Of course it is an economy that is pretty hard to 
 define in dollars and cents or in actual production, in a company operating the 
 
 56
 
 MABCH, 1921 THE LABOUE GAZETTE 541 
 
 way the telephone company does, but we all believe that there has been some 
 considerable saving owing to the operation of the plant councils. 
 
 MR. VALENTINE : Like Mr. Winter, I feel it is a difficult matter to estimate 
 just what, if any, benefit you get in production through the working of indus- 
 trial councils. It is true that in our factory we are now getting better results 
 than we obtained a year or two ago, but of course it is not all due to industrial 
 councils. However, I think that as far as our company is concerned, the in- 
 dustrial council has proven a means of contact with the management, and vice 
 versa, and that it has resulted in a better understanding and a better feeling 
 and undoubtedly has had a beneficial effect. As to just what percentage of 
 improvement there has been, I would not like even to hazard a guess. 
 
 DR. SINCLAIR : I would like to add just one brief word. I may say generally 
 that we have found that the industrial councils have added to the efficiency 
 and to production; and in saying that, I agree with Mr. Valentine, who has 
 added that we must not place it all to the credit of the industrial councils. 
 
 Resolutions Adopted by the Conference. 
 
 MR. COFFEY : Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in submitting the resolution 
 that has been approved by the Resolution Committee. I will read it out. 
 
 RESOLVED, That the members of the group assembled in conference at 
 the call of Hon. Gideon D. Robertson, Minister of Labour, do hereby express 
 our sincere appreciation of the opportunity presented to get together for 
 a frank discussion of human relationship in industry. The members of the 
 conference believe that the broad-minded attitude of the Minister and 
 members of the Department cannot fail to bring about a higher degree of 
 confidence in the Department on the part of those who are engaged in in- 
 dustry, whether they be employer or employee, and will eventually bring 
 about a better understanding of the problems of industry on the part of 
 all. 
 
 It is the consensus of opinion expressed by the members of the con- 
 ference that the work thus far conducted in the field of industrial councils 
 justifies a continuation of the confidence of both employee and employer. 
 
 We would welcome further conferences along similar lines, to be called 
 at the discretion of the Minister of Labour. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, the subject is before you in the terms that 
 you have heard read. 
 
 MR. WINTERS : I second the motion. 
 The motion was agreed to unanimously. 
 
 MR. SINCLAIR : We have already expressed our appreciation individually. I 
 would like to move, so that it may be on the minutes: That we gentlemen as- 
 sembled express our very sincere appreciation to the Minister and the Depart- 
 ment of Labour, notably Mr. Brown, for their invitation and for the courtesies 
 extended to us while in conference and also offer our congratulations in regard 
 to the success of this conference. 
 
 MR. FRYE: I second the motion. 
 The motion was agreed to. 
 
 57
 
 542 THE LABOUR GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 MB. MACLACHLAN: I do not want to make a formal resolution, but might 
 I suggest that the plans of the various plants here represented be made ap- 
 pendices to the minutes of this meeting ? We have been talking, in regard to 
 the benefits of these plans. Some of us know most of the plans, but I do not 
 think any of us know them all in detail. In using these minutes as information 
 I think it would be of great assistance to all of us and certainly to those outside, 
 if the minutes are sent out in digest form, to have the detail plans as a guide 
 to look at. It is merely a suggestion. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN : In reply to your suggestion I might state that we have in 
 course of preparation a bulletin dealing with the individual plans and the in- 
 formation will shortly be available, in the form of a separate publication. 
 
 Concluding Remarks of the Minister of Labour. 
 
 It was because of my having had the opportunity and pleasure of at- 
 tending the function to which Mr. Olzendam referred that I conceived the 
 idea of calling a meeting of this sort. I have never seen a more clear-cut 
 demonstration of the usefulness of co-operation than was exemplified at the 
 function referred to. There were 275 employees and officials of the Spanish 
 River Pulp & Paper Company gathered together at their convention, which 
 lasted, I think, two days. On the evening of the 7th the employees gave a ball, 
 and I have no doubt the Company helped them. The President of the Company 
 led the grand march with the wife of one of the employees. 
 
 I was not present on that occasion, but I was present at the banquet on 
 the following evening, and the spirit of confidence and co-operation that was 
 exemplified there was to me truly wonderful. It was while sitting at that 
 table and incidentally learning that the Spanish River Pulp and Paper Company 
 had a special man who had given his whole time and attention to this phase of 
 their work, that the thought occurred to me that there are other companies in 
 Canada who are doing the same thing, companies of which I know and there 
 may be many of which I do not know. Before leaving the Soo, I talked with 
 the management of the Spanish River Company and also of the Algoma Steel 
 Corporation respecting the advisability of having a meeting at which the gentlemen 
 engaged in industrial relations work for their respective employers might come 
 together. I thought it would be interesting and profitable for them to be brought 
 together and to get detailed information as to the policy and lines of action they 
 have followed, knowing full well that such information would be invaluable to the 
 Department, particularly to^he officers of the department who are undertaking 
 to develop and promote the industrial councils idea and to improve relations 
 between capital and labour in Canada. 
 
 There are two points that I would like to dwell upon just briefly. One, 
 mentioned by Mr. Stevenson, is this: whether or not it is desirable to work 
 through or with organized labour where such exists. The British idea and the 
 general policy adopted by the Whitley council plan it that both employers and 
 workmen should be organized, because without that organization the employees 
 do not speak with the authority with which they would naturally be vested if 
 they were speaking on behalf of the members of a society. I do not think any 
 employer in this country questions a man 's right to be a member of any fraternal 
 society or church, and I think there are very few who even ask an employee 
 whether he is a member of a trades union or not ; but I think there is a tendency 
 on the part of some employers to refrain from dealing with their workmen 
 through their unions. I have had some experience in connection with that work 
 
 58
 
 MAECH, 1921 THE LABOUR GAZETTE 543 
 
 during the past 25 years it has been largely confined to railroad service 
 and it has shown that the officials of our large railways in Canada, and I think 
 the same applies very largely to the United States, if they are asked, will say, as 
 they have said to me on several occasions, that they would not have their em- 
 ployees unorganized if they could, that because of their employees being so widely 
 distributed it is a physical impossibility for the executive or the management 
 to be in anything like intimate touch or relationship with them and it is therefore 
 necessary that some organized means be available whereby the grievances of 
 the individual employees may be brought to the attention of the executive officials 
 in a proper, systematic, and organized manner. That may not apply to so great 
 an extent in an industry where the employees are congregated together in a 
 small area ; nevertheless, I fancy it is true that in an organization that employs 
 more than 1,000 men it is not possible for the executive heads to be in close touch 
 with the details as they affect each individual. 
 
 I believe that the fear of many employers who perhaps, have not had 
 extensive experience in operating with their labour in an organized way is 
 that there will be coercion on the part of the employees if they are solidly 
 organized. I think the industrial councils plan of placing responsibility 
 perhaps small at first but gradually increasing upon the workmen themselves, 
 is a very good antidote to any tendency on the part of the workmen who are 
 strongly organized to carry their organized power to unreasonable lengths. 1 
 think it is true that any man as responsibility comes to him is more prone to 
 look at both sides of the sheet before deciding what he shall write upon it. If 
 the industrial council plan had not been brought into existence I am very sure 
 that to-day our industrial difficulties would be much greater than they are, 
 and that because of .it, thousands of men in this country and hundreds of 
 thousands of men in other countries have had their viewpoints altered and have 
 seen and realized the difficulties with which their employers have to contend, 
 and that it has been a wholesome antidote. 
 
 But that is not all. The most important thing in any country is public 
 opinion. As industry grew and as large aggregations of capital came into 
 control of industry and thousands of workmen came under one management, 
 more and more, by reason of the education that came to our people through 
 the press, the view became prevalent that the manufacturer and employer were 
 pirates exploiting labour. You know, and I know, that that is not so ; neverthe- 
 less that view has grown in the public mind, and it is necessary and important 
 to industry and to the future prosperity and welfare of the State itself that the 
 fact and not the illusion should be the impression and conviction resting in the 
 public mind. It is necessary, therefore, that through the instrumentality of 
 the industrial council movement the employees should become convinced that 
 the employers are playing the game fairly with the cards face up on the table; 
 and they should be convinced that they are welcome to an understanding of all 
 the details that it is essential for them to know, and should realize the problems 
 facing industry and the employer. Then they will realize that their success is 
 bound up with the success of the industry in which they are employed. Those 
 thousands of employees will simply act as levellers in the larger load which 
 moulds public opinion, and public opinion will be guided and moulded very 
 largely by the expressions of view and the statements of employees themselves. 
 The evidence that is given and the expressions of opinion that are uttered by the 
 employees generally in industries, have a great influence upon the public opinion 
 of the whole community, and an industry must have the commendation and the 
 approval of the public generally, or it will find itself in difficulties. 
 
 59
 
 544 THE LABOTJB GAZETTE MARCH, 1921 
 
 I think it may be found a wise policy on the part of Canadian employers 
 to deal with and through their employees who have decided to organize them- 
 selves in a systematic way; and where organizations among the workmen do not 
 exist that fact should be no bar to the establishment of an industrial council. 
 I believe that as a result of the very commendable work of the firms with which 
 you have been associated, and through the efforts and such assistance as the 
 Department of Labour has been able to give in extending and promoting the 
 thought in the minds of the other employers in Canada, a campaign of education 
 has been launched that will inspire confidence in the minds of thousands and 
 hundreds of thousands of workmen and other citizens of the country that will 
 redound to the ultimate benefit and profit not only of the industries and the 
 workmen employed therein, but to the happiness and prosperity of the whole 
 community. It is perhaps unbecoming of me to suggest to you, gentlemen, 
 anything, concerning education along this line, but it seems to me reasonably 
 consistent to ask if you could not circulate amongst your fellow employers 
 throughout Canada, who have not yet given close study to this question, the 
 plans that you have adopted and the results of your experience so far as they 
 have proved beneficial. It would be rendering a public service to industry and 
 to Canada. 
 
 Please be assured that it is not only the duty of the Department of Labour 
 but our pleasure to do anything we can to aid in the furtherance of this im- 
 portant work, and that nothing that any employer in Canada, or that any 
 worker or organization of workers may ask of us in the way of information, will 
 be refused. The Department of Labour is the servant of the people of Canada, 
 regardless of whether they be employers or workmen. 
 
 We have on many occasions received valuable assistance and information 
 from other countries. "We keep in particularly close touch with the Departments 
 of Labour at Washington and London, and we will be glad to contribute from 
 time to time such information as may seem to us to be useful to you and to 
 labour in Canada. 
 
 I hope that as a result of our gathering together here on this occasion there 
 may be a substantial extension in this good work throughout the country. And 
 again, may I say that I feel doubly indebted to Mr. Ching and Mr. Young, and 
 to their employers, for their kindness and for the valuable information which 
 they have been good enough to give us. Mr. Quirk and Mr. Stevenson will be for 
 some time to come engaged in giving special attention to this work to visiting 
 employers or employees who may express a desire concerning industrial councils ; 
 they will lend any assistance that they can in the promotion of this most com- 
 mendable spirit of co-operation and usefulness. Mr. Brown will be at head- 
 quarters here assisted by Mr. Hereford who is an experienced industrial 
 engineer ; Mr. Brown has been an official of the department for many years and 
 will give special attention to the work at this end. Your continued co-operation 
 is respectfully solicited and earnestly desired, and our services at all times are 
 at your disposal. 
 
 May I ask you gentlemen to be good enough to convey the appreciation of 
 the Department of Labour and of the Government to the executives who preside 
 over and govern the destinies of the various institutions and industries with 
 which you are connected and assure them of our thanks for their action in 
 sending you here, and for your coming, and for the co-operation which they, 
 through you, have given and are giving to us.
 
 RN REGIONAL LIBRARY FACILITY 
 
 1921 THE LABOUR 
 
 May I also say this, because it is true ? Coming from the ranks of labour, 
 and having been for a number of years an international officer of one of our big 
 international organizations, I felt very reluctant in assuming the administration 
 of the affairs of the Department of Labour, thinking that the employers generally, 
 who did not know me might feel that their interests were prejudiced by reason of 
 a labour man undertaking to administer that Department. My experience has 
 been entirely to the contrary. Whatever little success and progress the Depart- 
 ment may have enjoyed during the past couple of years, since I have been 
 connected with it, has been very largely due to the fact that I have had appar- 
 ently the undivided confidence and support and co-operation of employers 
 generally in Canada. The membership, individually and collectively, of the 
 Canadian Manufacturers' Association and organizations of employers subsidiary 
 to that, have one and all shown a keen desire to play the game fairly and to co- 
 operate with the Department in its efforts to deal honestly by all men. Words 
 can scarcely express the appreciation and the gratitude that I feel because this 
 is the fact, and, while one comes in contact with very many experiences that are 
 depressing and discouraging, that thought or that feeling has been a source of 
 encouragement to me continually. So long as it happens to be our fate to work 
 together in the future, as we have done in the past, I trust that the same cordial 
 relations and the spirit of confidence that has pervaded our associations up to now 
 may continue and grow and that we may have in reality an industrial council in 
 which employers and workmen and the Department of Labour may feel that this 
 is to be a family compact bent upon the same aim and for the same purpose. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN : Any further remarks now that anyone wishes to make ? If 
 not, I am going to declare the conference adjourned until our next meeting. 
 
 The conference adjourned. 
 
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 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORI\. 
 LOS ANGELES 
 
 JAN 2 6 1961 
 
 LIBRARY 
 GOVT. PUBS. ROOM