tM A A o o ^^ Z 1 1 8 ^^§ I 4 > . el 1 7 i o i| ! 3 : s I ^^^= § '. Speeches by Hon, Eugene Hale PANAMA CANAL APPROPRIATIONS AND PARTICIPATION IN THE MOROCCO CONFERENCE AND IN EUROPEAN INTERNATIONAL COMPLICATIONS. SPEECHES HON. EUGENE HALE, OF MAINE, UNITED STATES SENATE, DECEMBER 15 AND 16, 1905, AND JANUARY 15, 1906. 6441 WASHINGTON. 1906. ■a w SPEECHES OP II OK EUGENE HALE. The Senate having under consideration the bill (H. R. 480) supple- mental to an act entitled "An act to provide for the construction of a canal connecting the waters of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans," ap- proved .In in- i's, 1002, and making appropriation for isthmian canal construction, and for other purposes — Mr. HALE said : Mr. I'kisidknt : From my information on this subject, I think the Government was very fortunate in securing the services of Mr. Shouts. I know something about him. He is a man of great executive ability. lie had displayed that not only in ref- erence to the railroad of which he was president, but in other railroad enterprises. He is a man after the order of mind of the Senator from South Carolina [Mr. Tii.i.man | ; he is cour- ageous; he takes responsibility: he knows how to say "no," and, from my acquaintance with him, I believe he has the dis- crimination tn settle the proper time when to say "no;" and he has meat force and executive ability. I think if he is given pretty free rein he will advance the work down there faster than anybody else ever has advanced it or is likely to. 1 did not mean, in rising, to interrupt the Senator to go gen- erally into this matter. 1ml as special attention has been called to it 1 thoughl perhaps the Senator might not be unwilling for ^ me to give my views about Mr. Shouts and his relation to the ^ enterprise. Now, as to whether technically there has been a resignation • of his presidency of his railroad, I do not know. I supposed ^i that he had resigned. I know that when he took up the canal >- work it was upon the agreemenl that he should give his entire i time and ability to it and that he should in great decree have 0~- control and not be hampered in the work. lie is that kind of man thai he does not desire any kind of work unless he can carry out his views to their ultimate result. I think I may say that, while I do not know whether technically he has pre- , sented Ins resignation or not, he has given himself faithfully • and his entire time to this work. S{ Later in the discussion I may have something more to say about this, but. just at this time 1 wanted to say this of Mr. Shouts. v^i Mr. TILLMAN. I want the Senate clearly to understand that y I am not after any particular man. I had never heard of Mr. ■«ji Shonts, except through the newspapers, until his appointment I saw him the other day and was favorably impressed with him. r smear it on anything they found wrong, and come away and say so. There are some reasons why I have that opinion, and I will give them before I get through. I wish now t<> ask another question. Mr. W. Leon Pepperman, who Is chief clerk of the Commission, or rather he is assistant chief, as they call it, is also, I am informed, or was. an em- ployee or official of the Clover Leaf road, and is still an employee of the Clover Leaf road, and is doing work for it. Is that true or not? Mr. HALE. I can only say that I do not know the least thing about it. Mr. TILLMAN. I am sorry we did not go a little more fully into this investigation when we had Mr. Shonts and those other gentlemen in the Appropriations Committee room the other day. The thing was so hurried there and there seemed to be such intense pressure to get this money available that we did not really probe as deeply and as thoroughly into the various phases of the business as I think we ought to have done. This phase of it will illustrate the absolute necessity, as I take it, for the Interoceanic Canals Committee to begin, at the very earliest date after it has been orgauized and the vacancies have been filled, to perform its legitimate functions as the Intermediary between the Senate and the canal and its control and direction, and give us light whenever we ask for it and be able intelli- gently to discuss these matters. Mr. BALE. I agree entirely with the Senator that that committee ought to do that. Mr. TILLMAN. I do not see how they are going to do it unless they go down there. I do not want the Senate to order them off on a kind of a risky expedition that might involve some of them being hauled home on ice, but the duty should be imposed on somebody, and I confess I want to see it performed. Mr. HALE. Now. will the Senator allow me for a moment? This reference to Mr. Pepperman Mr. TILLMAN. I simply ask for Information whether or not he is still an employee or an officer of the Clover Leaf road and is not engaged a good part of his time in transacting railroad business? Mr. HALE. If the Senator has Investigated .Mr. TILLMAN". I am asking. I want to know. I want somebody else to investigate. I can not Investigate Mr. HALE. Nobody has any absolute knowledge or is infal- lible about this matter. I do not believe it is true. I doubt if the Senator has. although he may have, information, any more than a statement or rumor, that* this man Pepperman, who is employed on the canal work, employed by the Isthmian Canal Commission, employed by Mr. Shouts as its chairman, G444 6 with whom he had been associated in railroad work before, who certainly has duties enough to absorb all his time and all his ability, is at the same time employed by a railroad corporation and is giving them a part of his time and is being paid therefor. I shall be very much surprised, Mr. President, if investigation by whomsoever it is made discloses that fact. Should it dis- close that fact, I should say that that is a grievance and a wrong which ought to be righted at once. We hear a great many things ; we hear a great many rumors, and statements are made in reference to this and that which investigation does not disclose as being well founded. Mr. TILLMAN. I am only sorry, as I said, that we did not have more time, or were not able in the brief time at our dis- posal, to make examination of the gentlemen before the com- mittee. If they swear or say on their honor that they are no longer connected with the road and have received no compensa- tion for work done for the road, that will satisfy me. Mr. HALE. If we had thought of it Mr. TILLMAN. I say it illustrates the miserable policy we are pursuing, if the Senator will permit me. As long as the House of Representatives, under its present organization — and I have no right possibly to mention it even, because I want to be entirely respectful to the coordinate legislative body — con- tinues the policy of making bond provisions and emergency appropriations parts of the same bill and will not allow exam- ination, and the committee report it under the rule and gag everybody and double-quick it through and send it over here, and then we in less degree imitate their drastic processes and double-quick it through, so long the intelligent performance of our duties is impossible ; and having no hope that the House is going to change its procedure, at least in the near future, it impresses upon me the greater responsibility of the Senate to legislate intelligently and to be able to inform the country just what is going on, and be able to justify any appropriations of public money and be able also in a measure to certify to its honest expenditure. Mr. HALE. Undoubtedly. Mr. TILLMAN. That is all I am trying to bring about. Mr. HALE. But the Senator will recognize the situation. We were confronted with an undoubted and an undisputed ne- cessity for making this appropriation early. It did not come within our province to go into all of the investigation with refer- ence to the situation. But I think the Senator will bear me out that as a result of the day, the long day, which we spent in faithful examination, in bringing these officials before us and searching them with such questioning as brought out the facts, and important facts, the committee obtained a very valuable education. Now, I do not say that it did all that it could have done if it; had been a committee to which was intrusted the whole sub- ject-matter. If it had been that kind of a committee and we had gone into it to that extent, it would have taken weeks, and the other committee of the Senate that will take it up. whenever it reaches it. \Vill find its work very laborious and very ex- tended and most important. But I think the Senator, who has been long a member, and an active and important member, of the Committee on Appro- 6444 priations, will see that, confronted as we were with the necee slty of making this appropriation, we could not spend more time on it. The holidays were impending, it is well known yon can not keep Senators here It will be all that the veteran chair- man of the committee, who has charge of this bill, can do to get the bill in conference before the House and the Senate prac- tically dissolve, ami the Members hie away to their respective bomes. We bad that in view, and the committee is a practical kind of a committee, dealing with all those questions, and I do not think the Senator himself, with bis experience in the Senate and on that committee, will say seriously that he thinks we have slighted the public interest in not going into all these ques- tions. It did not occur to me that there was any question — I never heard it raised — that either Mr. Shonts, whom I do know a good deal about, or Mr. l'epperman, about whom I know little or nothing, was still connected in any way with any railroad enterprise and not giving his entire time to the canal business. I hope an investigation will show to the Senator that while this has been stated to him, or a memorandum given to him, he will find he is mistaken in that regard. Mr. ALLISON. I wish to say in addition to what has been said, and so well said, by the Senator from Maine, that the in- quiry by the Senator now in respect to these two gentlemen is the first intimation I have ever had that either or both of them were not giving their whole time to this work in which they are engaged. I had not for a moment supposed that in the examination we had the other day it was necessary to ask Mr. Shonts if he was giving his attention to this business, nor did I for a moment suppose that Mr. l'epperman was not doing it. Mr. CULBERSON. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from South Caro- lina yield to the Senator from Texas? Mr. TILLMAN. With pleasure. Mr. CULBERSON. I wish to say to the Senator from South Carolina that I have no personal acquaintance with Mr. Pepper- man, but as a member of the Philippines Committee I know he has been connected for some time with the War Department. He was connected with the Bureau of Insular Affairs of the War Department before he had any connection with the Panama Canal, as f understand. While I am unable to state positively that he no longei has any connection with any railroad com pany, I think it altogether improbable that be has any such connection. Mr. TILLMAN. 1 am not going to be satisfied, I will state right here, with anybody's belief, because beliefs do not answer in this case. I will take the words of these gentlemen that they have severed their connection and the dates when they did it. That is all; and there is no need for this quasi or indirect defense. The best evidence, according to my knowledge of evi- dence, is to gel it direct: and these gentlemen are available, and let us get it direct. Mr. HALE. Indeed we will. Mr. TILLMAN. Well Mr. HALE. I have just had this statement given me: Pepperman was never with the Clove* Leaf or any other road. He has been in the Government service tot ten years or more in the civil govern m of the Philippine islands and chief clerk of the Insular Bureau before being transferred to the canal work. 6 1 l 1 8 That is in correspondence with the impression of the Senator from Texas [Mr. Culberson]. Mr. TILLMAN. By whom is that signed? Mr. HALE. I do not know who it is. Mr. TILLMAN. I would rather the Senator would not read it. We do not want any anonymous communications sent in here. Mr. HALE. I venture to say it is better authority and will be better borne out by the facts on investigation than the so- called authority that the Senator has launched upon the Senate and charged this man with what has never taken place. Mr. TILLMAN. I have not charged it. I have made an in- quiry. Mr. HALE. No ; but the Senator has stated Mr. TILLMAN. No; I did not state. I said it was what I have heard. Mr. HALE. That is it. Mr. TILLMAN. Very well. Mr. HALE. This is what I have heard. Mr. TILLMAN. No ; you did not hear that. You got that in writing. You can not even tell who wrote it. Mr. HALE. Neither has the Senator stated how he heard that this man ig still employed by the railroad company. The Sen- ator can take this memorandum. Nobody would send me a memorandum unless he knew what he was talking about. Mr. TILLMAN. It is very easy to write a thing. I want the Canal Committee, for which I wanted to get a job the other day, given some work. I am afraid they will grow rusty unless somebody puts them to work. Mr. HALE. The Senator is wrong about this man. Mr. TILLMAN. I hope I am. I would be the last one to accuse a man of something that might be off color or dishonest. I make an inquiry that is very necessary to be made. If you get the Railway Guide of the United States, you will find Mr. Shonts's name in it. Take the Railway Guide for November, the month just gone, and he is still noted as president of the Clover Leaf road, and is published as such. It may be that the printer had the type stereotyped and did not take the trouble to change it, but I think that the Clover Leaf Railroad keeps up with the changes in administration as well as with the changes in schedules. Mr. HALE. I can say to the Senator that this memorandum was handed to me while on my feet by the Senator from South Dakota [Mr. Kittkedge], who is on the Committee on Inter- oceanic Canals. It was given to him by a well-known corre- spondent here in Washington, who signs his name, and the Sen- ator can read it. I think it is Obi. Mr. TILLMAN. I am not sufficiently interested in that to care to read it. Mr. HALE. I see the Senator is not. I am. Mr. TILLMAN. I am not, for this reason : If these men should state that they are not still connected with the railroad and are not getting paid by it for work done for it while they are getting pay from the Government as canal commissioners and officers, I want to know it. There is so much in the shape of smoke — stench, I had almost said — that I should like to have the thing ventilated fully. 6444 Mr. HALE. I hope the Senator will not make any more charges as serious as this one Mr. TILLMAN. I have not made any charges. Mr. HALE. Unless he lias Borne testimony. Mr. TILLMAN. I have qoI made a charge. I have asked a question. I thought you gentlemen on the other side would probably be able to answer it authoritatively, but you are not. Mr. ALLISON. .Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from South Car- olina yield to the Senator from Iowa? Mr. TILLMAN. Always. Mr. Aid. I SOX. The Senator from South Carolina says he has Information on the subject or has learned that Mr. Shonts, for example, is still president of the Clover Leaf Railroad Com- pany. Mr. TILLMAN. 1 have given the Railway Guide, which can be found in the Sergeant-at-Arms' office, as authority for it. Mr. ALLISON. I was about to ask the Seuator if he had knowledge of this on yesterday. Mr. TILLMAN. No; I did not. I went in and looked my- self as soon as I heard he was connected with the Clover Leaf road. .Mr. ALLISON. I merely wanted to call attention to the fact that this Information was in the possession of the Senator from South Carolina yesterday, and therefore he could have asked the question. Mr. TILLMAN. I did not know yesterday, but if I had know n it yesterday it would have availed nothing, as it was day before yesterday when we had our hearing in the Appro- priations Committee room. 1 certainly would not have gone out without asking the question if I had known about it then. So much for that Now, let us come to another phase. In the hearing we had before the committee the other day it was brought out that among the appointees or employees of the ("anal Commission is one gentleman by the name of Bishop, whose duties were pretty clearly set forth in that hearing — I will read them directly bul about the necessity for whose em- ployment we were not entirely satisfied. I find in the minutes of (lie Isthmian Canal ( Commission of October 30 this resolution : Upon motion of Commissioner Ernst, seconded by Commissioner Bains, ii was Rrsoln il , That t<> facilitate the dispatch of current business at the Washington office of the Commission, the chairman be, and be hereby is. empowered t" authorize and direct In writing the secretary of the Commission or other employee of the Commission to approve for pay- ment, under the caption By direction of the chairman." vouchers for any payments by ili<- Commission, and to make requisition for sup- plies for the maintenance of said Washington office. Mr. Bishop is Mr. Shonts's appointee, and it appears that there are occasions when both Shonts and Pepperman are .absent from the main office here, and that it was necessary, in order to have the business go on, for somebody else to be authorized to sign. So Mr. Bishop was empowered In that resolution I will deal a little more fully with Mr. Bishop by reading from the testimony of Secretary Taft at the hearing: Senator Tillman. I notice that the secretary of the Commission gets $10.0011. Se< retary Taft. res, sir. Senator Tillman, i a the commission sit here? Secretary Taft. It dues, part of the lime. • it 11 10 Senator Tillman. Practically all the time? Secretary Taft. Practically ; it sat here most of the time. Senator Tillman. I say, practically all the time? Secretary Taft. Well, its minutes are kept here. The records are kept here, and a very large part of the clerical work is done here, though by direction it has to meet four times a year on the Isthmus. Mr. LODGE. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from South Caro- lina yield to the Senator from Massachusetts? Mr. TILLMAN. Certainly. Mr. LODGE. I know the Senator has got away from Mr. Pep- perman. but perhaps he will allow me, as I have the official record from the Bureau of Insular Affairs, to state that Mr. Pep- perman went to the Philippines, in our civil service, in 1900, but for many years previous to that he had been an examiner under the Civil Service Commission in Washington ; that after he returned from the Philippines, in 1901, he entered the Bureau of Insular Affairs, where he has remained until the present time; and, so far as the Bureau of Insular Affairs knows, he has had no connection whatever with any railroad at all, but has been in the service of the Government for the last ten or fifteen years. Mr. TILLMAN. That is all right, but I want Mr. Pepperman himself to say. I am not going to take any secondary evidence when I can get the original man ; that is all. Mr. LODGE. That is the report of the bureau in which he has been employed. Mr. TILLMAN. I do not want to appear to doubt the in- tegrity of purpose and the perfect honesty and honorable deal- ing of any of these gentlemen. I do not want Mr. LODGE. But. Mr. President, the Senator from South Carolina, with no authority that I have heard him cite except that of rumor, has been casting very serious reflections on this gentleman. I never heard of Mr. Pepperman in my life until the other day, but I think any man is entitled to be taken on the official record furnished by the War Department rather than on the rumors of newspapers until at least he can be heard from. Mr. TILLMAN. I only want to have him heard from instead of having Senators get up here and give us secondary evidence. That is all there is to it. I have received a communication, and I will see what it says. [After a pause, reading:] I have just talked over the phone with Mr. Pepperman, whom I know very well. He was never and is not now connected with the Clover Leaf Railroad. He has been in Government service twelve years, and I am sorry that somebody apparently has misinformed you. All right. I apologize to Mr. Pepperman. Mr. SPOONER. The Senator's correspondent may have been talking to some other man over the phone. Mr. TILLMAN. Hardly. We almost always recognize the voice. I could tell the voice of the Senator from Wisconsin, even from Milwaukee, at my house over the long-distance tele- phone. I will gamble on it. That is a little too thin. That is some more special pleading. I come back to Mr. Bishop, since Mr. Pepperman has disap- peared and is not a person who is a little off on drawing two salaries. Mr. SPOONER. The Senator from South Carolina was a little off. C444 11 Mr. TILLMAN. I will Bay 1 was a little off. I am willing to acknowledge It, and when thai La the caae will straighten up things any time and anywhere. I hope Mr. shouts will comeoul of the situation with equal credll to himself honestly 1 do. i was reading from the testimony of Secretary Taft Mr. FORAKER. What page? Mr. TILLMAN. Page 53. Senator TILLMAN. I notice that particular officer [Mr. Bishop] be- cause I can not see why the mere keeping of the records of the work of the Commission requires so much skill or so much brains. Secretary Taft. Be is the historian of the Commission. He was employed at a time when it was thought necessary t'> have a man of very considerable journalistic experience, for the reason that the attacks on the canal, its construction, and the preposterous misrepresentations concerning everything, both on the Isthmus and here, bad gotten to such a point that it seemed necessary for the Commission to protect itself in some way. Senator Tillman. So he Is the press agent, then, of whom we have heard in the debate? Secretary Taft. Sou can call him a press agent if you choose to. Senator Tillman. I would not call him that, except from your description of him. Secretary Taft. Well, that was added to his duties as the secretary of the Commission, the recorder of the Commission, and its historian. Senator Tillman. Is it the duty of this Commission to run a political campaign to defend itself? Secretary Taft. No, sir; but it is the duty of the Commission to correcl impressions that are circulated maliciously for the purpose of Interfering with its work. Senator Tillman. Bui ought not those to come through you, through official reports and data, rather than through communications to the press v Secretary Taft. No ; it is not a question of communications to the press. I can communicate matters to the press; but the question is of running down every misrepresentation over this country. He has a record there that would startle people — the stories that have been started with a view simply of Impeding the work of the canal. Mr. SPOONER. Will the Senator allow me to interrupt him for a moment? Mr. TILLMAN. With pleasure, always. Mr. SPOONER. Is the Senator reading from page 53? Mr. TILLMAN. I am reading from page 53 of the first edi- tion. I think they have added to it two or three pages, and you will find it on page 54 or 55 in the edition you have. Mr. SPOONER. That is what I wanted to interrupt the Sen- ator for, 1 have page 53, and it does not contain that state- ment. Mr. TILLMAN. I gol the first publication that was sent to the Committee on Appropriations, and I have not taken the trouble, having mailed my eopy, to go to the newer and later edition. We have there the statement by the Secretary, who is, of course, at last directly responsible, for he is Mr. Shonts'a supe- rior officer, that the Canal Commission has in its employ a man of ability as a journalist and of* long experience. I think in his own testimony he stated that he had been editor of the New York Herald or Tribune, or seme stub paper, and there is no doubt about his mental acumen and brightness. We found that out very readily when we began to cross-question him. They pay this man $1().0oo a year. Yet lie has never been to Panama and he has no special aptitude, as 1 can see. for any work that the Commission needs to have done. It is not, I believe — at least I have never heard it before— customary, to use the phrase of the Senator from Maine: it is an innovation in any 6444 12 department of the Government, however important, to take the public money and employ a man at a high salary — twice what I get — to exploit its work and to defend it through the press. It is very evident that his labor, from his own testimony, is comparatively light. The Commission meets only occasionally, all its meetings are short ones, and the mere keeping of the min- utes and the other ordinary work of a secretary, I think, could be done by any first-class clerk in this city at $2,000 or $3,000, which would appear to me to have been ample for such a thing or even for a first-class newspaper man. I presume that we have on the newspapers in Washington as bright a class of men as this country affords, and some of them get very high sala- ries — William E. Curtis, for one that I recall, and several others whose pay goes up into the thousands. But it is the purpose of employing this man that I am criticising or discussing ; and he has a clerk whose sole duty appears to be, according to his own statement, to read some hundred and odd leading news- papers from all over the United States, of all the cities, and mark every article that is for or against the Canal Commission's work, in praise of it, or in criticism of it, and anything that strikes him as important he submits to the Canal Commission. So we find that the process of hypnotizing public opinion or of misinforming the people is in progress here at a very great expense; and the first thing that struck me when this matter was brought out was that people who were entirely innocent and who need on defense would not take the trouble to be wor- ried and put a $10,000 man at work upon the duty of defending them. The Commission undoubtedly did this by Secretary Taft's approval and also that of the President, and I can not for the life of me see what justification there is for the public money to be spent in that way. The press representatives in Wash- ington may some of them be dirty and low in their instincts, be disposed to lie or misrepresent. It is charged by Secretary Taft that this crusade, I will say, was an organized one, that the effort to flyblow the work of the Commission and to belittle it, to confuse the public mind, had gone to such length that he felt it absolutely necessary to do something to defend the Commission and keep it from losing the confidence of Congress. There is mention made of a con- certed, organized scheme of obstruction which would, as the Secretary feared, produce want of confidence, alarm the public mind as regards the probable ultimate cost of the canal, and in the end defeat it, or if not defeat it bring alrfmt a retardation of its construction that would be beneficial to these railroads that were mentioned as furnishing the fund. Mr. GALLINGER. Hinted at. Mr. TILLMAN. Mr. Bishop said he himself was offered $12,000 by this opposing organization, and he mentioned the three dead elements of opposition, the Nicaragua route, the Darien route, and the Tcbuantepec route, as being in the com- bine; but he was very tender and unwilling to locate the rail- road opposition. Now, that is something which our Committee on Interoceanic Canals might, if it sees fit, find out, if it is worth while. I asked Secretary Taft if he felt there was any instrumen- tality on earth that could defeat the construction of the Panama 6444 13 Canal now that the Onited States lias gone aboul it, and he Bald he did not think It could, bul thai it would retard it. and thai is all these people nope to do. If they arc willing to pay (12,000 for Mr. Bishop i<» lead an organized movement "f slan- der ami abuse mikI misrepresentation and lying, and all thai kind of thing, it is worth our while to see whether there Is any con- spiracj on fool here looking to befuddle the minds of Senators and Congressmen to ^et us confused, I remarked, and 1 still think, that as soon as we get rid of the suspicion which is now abroad, that the Tana! Commission and its head, the chief engineer, and Mr. Shonts and others occupying the higher places have gained the confidence <>f the country and I hope they will if they have not already got it — that as soon as they shall have demonstrated their business capacity and their earnest zeal in carrying forward this great work successfully at the minimum of expense, all of this swarm of gnats, or mosquitos, or whatever other simile you might use, of misrepresentation, will disappear entirely. But I believe the newspapers of this country would be glad to publisb the truth. One of them, the Herald, has now a special correspondent on the Isthmus who is sending home some very interesting reading, by the way. which I will bring to the attention of this body presently. While he is only a newspaper correspondent. I happen to know him personally, and I have not the slightest doubt that he is telling the God's truth as he sees it. It looks like we are almost as far away from the Panama Canal as we were from the Philippines. We never could get anything from there, the trouble being that the language shut off the plaintiff in the case, and we were the defendants, and there never was any indictment brought that would go .very far. We go1 into the administration of the water cure and some cold blooded murders through that instrumentality, and tnere were very unpleasant incidents brought out in one way or another: but let us hope for God's sake, for the honor of the country, that we will have nothing of this sort in the way of dishonorable practices and peculation in Panama. Mr. HALE. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from South Car- olina vield to the Senator from Maine? Mr. TILLMAN. Certainly. Mr. HALE. I think the Senator will hear me out in this statement. I think when the statement made by Mr. Bishop was put before the Committee on Appropriations there was this general feeling about it. In the flrsl place. Mr. Bishop himself did not in any way hesitate or qualify or give any intention of a desire to conceal his relations to the Commission. He stated in answer to questions put by the Senator, by the chairman. and by me that his duty was as a historian, a literary editor : that his connection with the Commission, so far as any actual clerical or secretary's duties were concerned, was very little. When we followed him up he stated that his method of con ducting this position as literary secretary and as historian was twofold- first, to accumulate information for the purpose of writing a history of the canal, which be will do in due time. and, next, to gather newspaper comments and Intelligence from the press everywhere and disseminate that. We asked for 6444 14 what purpose, and T used the phrase, "Were you doing this to manufacture public opinion?" His reply was, "Not to manu- facture," and I said the phrase was not used offensively, hut Mr. Bishop means that it was done for the purpose of creating public sentiment. Now, I think the feeling admitted universally was that it is an innovation ; that for any branch of the Government to seek to make public sentiment by incorporating into its duties a press department that shall communicate with the newspapers for the purpose of creating public sentiment is what has never been done. Every great event in our history has been criticised mercilessly. Every great public man who has illustrated our history and our annals has been cruelly and mercilessly criti- cised, and has borne it, and has looked to time and the work that he has done to justify him. He has not felt it necessary to have a press bureau in order to create public sentiment. If Mr. Shonts is responsible, or if the Secretary is responsible for this departure from all usage heretofore. I am bound to say that I think they have made a mistake. But, Mr. President, sensitive, as we should be, to any attempt of this kind to incorporate a press agency with a department of the Government to manufacture or to make public sentiment, the newspapers ought to be ten times as sensitve as we are to any- thing of this kind. Mr. TILLMAN. And I think they are. Mr. HALE. The press of the country is a great estate. The newspapers make great mistakes and are sometimes cruelly unjust, both to men and to measures. But as a rule their pur- pose is high because the objects they seek are for the public good, and they are a great and beneficent power in the land. But, Mr. President, if the Government or any part of the Government establishes as a part of its duties a press agency to create public sentiment through disseminating their state- ments and their reports to the press, you have got first a prejudiced press ; you have got a selected pi"ess. The news- papers are selected to disseminate this intelligence and make this public sentiment, and at last, if you have an unscrupulous Administration, you have a hireling press. The preference that is given by the selection of newspapers to disseminate the Government's views in order to make senti- ment before the public is a thing that the newspapers ought to be more sensitive about than we. and we ought to be very sensi- tive. I think it was the feeling of the entire committee that this was an innovation, and a most unfortunate innovation. Mr. TILLMAN. The Senator from Maine, in his usual force- ful way, has stated in better terms than I could the feeling, as I gathered it, of every member who was present. We do not think that it is the business of any department of this Govern- ment to take public money to undertake to bamboozle us or the people either, or to defend themselves, whether they are accused justly or unjustly. They must rely upon the integrity of their motives and the purity of their administration to get the confi- dence of Congress and the good will of the people. But, nevertheless, we have got this very thing which the Sen- ator has condemned in such strong terms, and we are paying $10,000 for the luxury. I do not know whether it is an oriental method or not, but you know what is meant by the freedom of 6444 15 the press. I rather think this is n Russian method, or a kind of an Importation from St. Petersburg as St. Petersburg used to be, by which certain things were Inspired. December 16. Mr. CULBERSON. I ask that the amendment which I sub- mitted yesterday be read The VICE-PRESIDENT. The amendment will be read. The Sic i:i i \i:y. On page :i, line J2, it is proposed to insert the following : Provided, Thai do pari of the money hereby appropriated shall be used to pay i in- expenses of a literary bureau connected with the Isth- mian ("anal Commission or pay the salary, compensation, or allowance, by whatever oa called, or any person who may be engaged in such work for <>r in behalf of said Commission. Mr. CULBERSON. Mr. President, while the purpose of this amendmenl is (airly obvious, a word or two about it may not be Inappropriate. I'rior to the selection of the present secretary of the Commission that place was held by another, who, so far as I know, was thoroughly competent, and who was paid a sal- ary of $5,000. On account of the Inhospitable climate of Pan- ama, the occupanl resigned the position of secretary and the present occupant of that oftice was employed and the salary of the office Increased from $5,000 to $10,000. The salary was in- creased because, In addition To the ordinary duties of secretary, lie was constituted the historian or the chief of the literary bu- reau, or the literary secretary of the Commission. In the hear- ing before the Committee on Appropriations he stated what Ins duties were with far greater frankness, in my judgment, than did the Secretary of War or the chairman of the Canal Com mission. This amendment has no personal feature. It is aimed at the innovation; it is aimed at the unhealthy policy which is at- tempted by these proceedings to be ingrafted upon government in this country. I repeat, Mr. President, though it is hardly necessary to do so, that the amendment is not aimed at a per- sonality. I never beard of this gentleman before, bu1 he seems to be a gentleman of education and intelligence, and. what is of far greater consequence in these times, an honest and a candid and straightforward man. Now let us see what he says. I shall not weary the Senate with a long extract from these papers. When other witnesses under- took to befog the situation, to lay stress on his duties as secre- tary, and to minimize his duties as literary secretary, or chief of the literary bureau, this gentleman was frank enough to say : Senator Hale. As you said a while ago, in answer to my question, It was understood you were the literary secretary? Mr. Bishop, res, Senator Hai.i:. Now, the keeping up of communication, the receh lng of those newspapers, and so on, the seeing that clippings are made of criticisms upon the Commission, seeing thai they are kept on tile, and the furnishing of Information to newspapers, and the interviews and speeches of the Secretary of War and members of the Commission, and keeping the general run of the relations of the Commission to the public, that is the main pari of your duty? Mr. Bishop. It is the main part. Now. Mr. President. I have thought that much was necessary in explanation of the purpose of this amendment, and I would have more to say about it and about the impolicy of this inuo- v. it inn except for the fact that the lack of wisdom in it, to go 0444 16 no further, is recognized by the Administration, and I am as- sured by the Senator from Maine [Mr. Hale] that this gross abuse, as I believe, of the use of public funds will be cor- rected in the administration of that office, and that no legislation is necessary. I understand that the assurance comes directly from the Administration that the impropriety of this attempt to create or to control or to direct public opinion with reference to one of the governmental agencies has been recognized, and that it will be done away with and eradicated without legis- lation. With that understanding, at the proper time I will withdraw this amendment, but only, Mr. President, in con- sideration of that assurance. Mr. HALE. I do not wish to interrupt the Senator The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Texas yield to the Senator from Maine? Mr. CULBERSON. I have not concluded. Mr. HALE. I do not wish to interrupt the Senator. Mr. CULBERSON. I yield with pleasure to the Senator now. Mr. HALE. I think it is entirely fitting that I should say something in relation to this matter brought out by the sugges- tion of the Senator from Texas. There is a difficulty in dealing with this situation by any legislative provision. The Senator has found that difficulty in framing any legislation or language that will meet the real evil. The real evil is recognized by everybody. As was stated in the debate yesterday, the Com- mittee on Appropriations was a unit that this was an improper thing — that the duties of the secretary of this Commission should be changed from an actual secretary dealing with the business of the Commission to the work of building up a press bureau to deal with the newspapers ; to collect information and select information and then disseminate it. That is not the business of the Government or any bureau of the Government. The Committee on Appropriations was united upon this sub- ject. It believed it to be an unfortunate, unjustifiable, and in- excusable innovation. The establishment and continuance of this office is an administrative measure. It is difficult to frame language that will reach this ; but I am authorized to state here that the view taken by the Senator in offering his amendment, the view of the Committee on Appropriations, and of. I think, perhaps every Senator here, that it is an improper thing and a useless thing, and leads not only to no good result, but may be greatly abused, is recognized by the Administration ; and here- after the duties of this secretary, who, as the Senator says, per- sonally appeared well — he did not attempt to dodge or in any way get away from the responsibility of answering questions plainly, but disclosed the whole situation — hereafter, as an administrative measure, the secretary of the Canal Commission is to be given administrative duties relating to the work of the Commission, and the whole form and machinery of what is called this " press bureau " is to be discontinued and abandoned. That will be done as an administrative measure, and there is no objection by anybody in the Administration to its being done. So I am glad that the Senator, seeing this and recognizing that what he seeks to accomplish will be accomplished, is ready to withdraw his amendment, so that we shall not be embarrassed with the difficulty of putting into words something that can be better done by administration. Mr. CULBERSON. Mr. President, I wish to add, with refer- 6444 17 ence to the amendment, that I trusi tiiis assurance carries with it also the Idea thai this salary will be readjusted as well as the duties of the place. Mr. HALE. All questions of salaries are to be settled after- wards by another committee. I can nut say to the Senate, as I did about the other essential pari, thai I considered or brought Up the matter of salary, hut when the Committee on Inter oceanic Canals takes up the question of salaries it will deal with this as with all other salaries. We did not propose on this bill to deal with salaries. PARI K IIWTION IN Till MOROCCO CONFERENCE AND. IN EUROPEAN l.vn.i; \ \Tlii.v\i, com i-i.n \ ! tONS. The Senate bavins under consideration the following resolution sub- mit ted this day by Mi-. Ba< "Resolved in/ tin Senate, That Interference with or participation in any controversy between European governments relating to European International questions is a violation at the well-settled, well-denned policy of this Government, which has been recognized and observed for more than a rent ury past " — .Mr. HALE said: Mr. President Mr. BACON. I promised 1 would yield in a moment to the Senator from Alabama I Mr. Morgan] and that I would call his attention to an Interruption he desired to make, so I hope the Senator from Maine will excuse nte for a moment. Mr. MORGAN. I desire merely to make an inquiry of the Senator from Georgia or any other Senator. I want to know whether we have any authentic or official statement of any invitation for the < Jovernment of the United States to partici- pate in this serious conference? lias that been brougb.1 to the attention of the Senate? 1 suppose*, Mr. President, that the character of the invitation would, in a large measure, if not entirely, determine the character in which we accepted it. in which we are to he represented, and the purpose for which we are to be represented in that conference, if you call it such. Therefore I think the Senate ought to he informed of the nature of the invitation, so as to see whether it is proper for the President of the United states to accepl it in full or to accept it in part, or whether the acceptance of it would create that state of entangling alliance with foreign European governments in respect particularly of political questions that we have always denounced in every action heretofore taken, more par- ticularly in sending our delegates to the Panama conference. Mr. HALE. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Georgia yield to the Senator from Maine? Mr. BACON. Will the Senator from Maine allow me to an- swer the question of the Senator from Alabama? Mr. HALE. I am called front the Chamber, and desire to say only a few words. Mr. BACON. I will yield to the Senator from Maine | Mr. HALE] now. and will reply to the Senator from Alabama I Mr. MORG w I later. Mr. HALE. I only desire to say. Mr. President, that I do not in the least regrel this discussion. 1 think in .all matters relating to not onlj action upon treaties submitted to the Senate, '•tit upon grave considerations involving the negotiation of i; it t 2 18 treaties, that the participation of the Senate was never by the framers of the Constitution intended to be shut out. I do not go so far as some Senators have gone in saying that until a treaty negotiated by the President is submitted to the Senate in terms the Senate shall stand dumb. Mr. President, in that storehouse of information upon this sub- ject, the Madison Papers — and the best form of those papers is the edition that was authorized by a resolution of Congress, edited by an eminent master of jurisprudence — whoever will go back to that fountain head of discussion and of consideration of all these great subjects, including the treaty-making power, will find that the participation of the Senate in all matters re- lating to treaties was most jealously guarded. Both Mr. Rut- ledge and Mr. Pinckney submitted the grave proposition that the entire treaty-making power should be left with the Senate. Mr. Dickinson and Doctor Franklin believed that it should be left to an Executive, with an executive council. Whoever exam- ines that record and goes to the fountain head of information will find that the compromise, that was at last agreed upon only came after a determined resistance on the part of the advocates of the power of the Senate, that the Senate should still be in touch with all subjects-matter attending foreign rela- tions either before or after a treaty should be submitted. It is said that we may trust the Executive. I think we may ; but what would happen if at some time there was an Executive that we could not trust? What would happen if an Executive should desire to rehabilitate his own fortunes or build up the waning strength of his party by a war issue, and the Senate be- lieved and was convinced that there was danger of that? Must the Senate wait until the mischief is done? Mr. SPOONER. Will the Senator allow me to ask him a question ? The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Maine yield to the Senator from Wisconsin? Mr. HALE. I do. Mr. SPOONER. The Senator speaks outside of treaties. The Senator is not referring to treaties? Mr. HALE. I am referring to steps that lead to treaties. Mr. SPOONER. I should like to ask the Senator what would the Senate do in such a case? Mr. HALE. I have no doubt, Mr. President, that if such a condition as that I have touched upon arose, and it was be- lieved that an Executive for such reasons — they do not apply now, as I have indicated — was taking advantage of his power to commit the country to a war policy, I have no doubt that the Senate, in connection with the House of Representatives, could and would interfere by joint resolution and would not let that danger be presented to the Republic. So, as I say, I do not go so far as some Senators do in be- lieving that the Senate can do absolutely nothing until a treaty in form is launched before the Senate. But I am not troubled upon this matter now by any consideration of that kind. Under the administration of this Government as now conducted I do not belive that the Secretary of State, who has immediate charge of all these matters, will in any way involve this country, or let it be involved, in any of the controversies that will arise out of this conference between European i lowers. I think we may safely assume that the conservative 6 HI 19 Interests of the country will be guarded In thai res] t, and that the Senator Deed bave do alarm. I wish— 1 am ool besitanl in savin- that I wish— that the Secretary of State and the President acting together bad de- termined cot t<> send delegates to this conference. The con ference is. as the Senator from Georgia [Mr. Bacon] says, not a conference called to meel commercial questions. It is a slmon pure outrighl political conference. It lias given rise to greal excitemenl : the European press has all been full of it, ami. I am sorry to say, Mr. President, that our press lias been Cull nC it a thing Willi which we have little or DO concern, ami the less concern that we have with it the better. 1 (1 1 find fault. I can see that the Secretary of State ami the President, being called upon, as I think they were, by this little foughl over country of .Morocco to send delegates, de termined to send them. I can not speak for the President or the Secretary of state, hut I should, if I made a guess, think thai If the matter were to come Dp now. in view of the discus- sions, in view of all the conditions, the President and the Secre- tary of State would hesitate to send delegates to this conference. But they have gone there. The danger, .Mr. President, is not from the President nor from the Secretary of State. The danger of this whole business is the still ascending prominence of the war sentiment in the country. The President is not accountable for that; the Sec- retary of State is not accountable for that; we are not ac- countable Tor that I picked Dp a copy of this morning's Post, Mr. President, and I have it bere. it is a newspaper which deserves all that has been said of it by the Senator from Georgia. It means to be a careful paper, and it is mainly a conservative paper: but the Washington Post this morning has more than a whole column showing that our danger of getting into these complications and getting Into entangling alliances is not from the President nor from the Secretary of State nor from us. but from outside senti- ment. .More than a whole column is given to this Moroccan ques- tion, to what will come of it, to the presence of our fleet at Gibraltar, and to the complications that will result. In the same paper, in a little inconspicuous place, is a notice of a com mon mine conference between all the operators of coal, all the representatives of the transportation of coal, and all the organi- zations that represent labor in the mining of coal and its trans portation, but it is given no conspicnousness. Nobody thinks of that. The trouble is. Mr. President, that, umler the Incitement that the military sentiment is constanly pushing us forward to, with every officer of the Army and of the Navy eager and anx- ious for a complication that will bring us into war. the public attention is drifting away from the tremendous problems that at home are clutching at the foundation of our entire social and business and political fabric. I hope to live long enough, it may be I shall not, when the Obscure Item which is given in the Posl of this great meeting, involving all these great questions of coal transportation, of coal mining, and the interests of coal operators, the interests that labor has. will excite some attention, and that we will cease to give the best of our thoughl and our agitation to these foreign problems. We have very little to do with Morocco. We could negotiate. lit 1 1 20 If need be, another commercial treaty with her in sixty days by sending commissioners for that purpose. In this conference between the European powers, who stand with bands at each other's throats, making an excuse for intervention and a policy that may mean war, the question of commerce will never have an ounce of consideration. The subject of commerce and of our commerce will never have the consideration of a moment in that conference. It is called for another purpose; the interest in it is in another purpose, and it would he much better if we kept our hands off of all such things. I wanted to say this, and I want to say that I do not agree with the .Senator in his apprehension that either the President or the Secretary of State is going to lead us into any trouble in this matter. The conservative instinct will take care of that. We shall get out of it without being entangled in the jealousies and strifes of the European powers. But I think this discussion itself is valuable, and I am very glad it has taken place. Mr. BACON. Mr. President, I have listened with great pleasure and interest to what the distinguished Senator from Maine has said. I agree with him in almost everything he has said, and I will indicate a little later wherein I unfortunately differ from him, as slight as that difference may be. I certainly agree with him decidedly as to the principles announced on all matters. I thoroughly agree with him. and not only so but I believe that nine out of ten men who have heard him to-day agree with him as to the principles which he has announced, and as to the policy which we should observe and of which we should be regardful. I do not expect to hear any Senator rise in his place to-day and take issue with him as to these principles and policies. There is but one point upon which I differ from the learned Senator. As I understand the position of the Sena- tor, he very frankly says that he would have preferred if we had not been parties to this conference, and he gives the sound- est and the best and most unanswerable reasons why his pref- erence in that matter is well founded. But he says that in this particular case we have no particular reason to fear. Well, Mr. President, I do not believe that any great injury is going to come to us out of this particular case, because I be- lieve, as I hope, that it is going to be settled peaceably ; but the question as to whether it is a prudent thing to do is not to he settled by the question of what is most likely to happen; it is to be considered in the light of what may possibly happen. I put to the Senator a question upon the result of this conference as to Germany, for instance, and I only speak of these countries because of the facts involved, and it does not relate in any manner to any relation between us and these countries, and consequently there is no indelicacy in speaking of it. If the result of this conference should he one which Germany would refuse to abide by. what would result? Where would stand the United States? Suppose, for instance, as is given out in the papers— and who will doubt it? — the European governments are looking to the United States as one power which is to exercise a irroat influence in determining what shall he the order and decree of that conference. It may he that there is a tie vote except the vote of the United States, which may he the one to decide upon the judgment and order of the conference. It may be that the deciding vote of the United States shall determine r, i II 21 a policy to which Germany will objecl and on account of which she will ^> to w Mr. Mr. ii.M.K. Now, i should bop< Mr. BACON. I hope the Senator will pardon me and let me finish. I always listen to him with the greatesl pleasure, bu1 it Is better that 1 should finish the proposition Mr HALE. Very well. Mr. BACON. Because there is another alternative thai I wish to put, and 1 shall then be more than glad t<> hear the Sena- tor, as he always enlightens every question which he touches. Suppose that in the vote, .-is I was saying, it should turn out as the result that i he determination was reached in consequence of the casting vote of the United states Government, and thai on account of the decree and order of that conference Germany should refuse to abide by whal it should thus determined and should go to war. where would stand the Government of the United States? I understand the Senator, and I hope he will reply afterwards, because I will be more than glad to have him do so. Mr. President, when European nations get together in a con- ference for the purpose of settling a question on account of which war is threatened, there is an implied and moral obliga- tion, in the first place, that they will abide by the judgment and decree of the conference; and there is an implied and a moral Obligation, in the second place, that if any power refuses to abide by the decree of thai conference those who thus agree to it will compel its obedience. They are not there Cor idle play. They arc not there for the solution of abstrad conundrums. They are there for the practical and. if need be, the forcible settlement of great questions upon which will depend the powers of the world and who shall exercise them. When they agree to gel together in the conference the coun- try which consents to that conference and then refuses to abide by it is at war witii all the others, and all the others are under a moral obligation to enforce it. To-day a large part of Europe, an important part of it. is regulated and controlled by the decree of the Berlin conference. If there should he on the part of any one of the signatory powers an infraction of that decree, every government a parts- to that decree is under a moral obligation to support every other power in the enforcement of that decree. The United state- can not take part in that conference, it can not lie one to decide by its vote what shall he the decree, and then refuse to assist in the enforcement of the decree. Now, I have one more suggestion to make, if the Senator will pardon me. It will he very short, and he can answer them both together, because they are cognate. Suppose, as in the European press it is suggested, that possibly the American dele- gates will not vote, hut that they will simply counsel and advise, and suppose, in consequence of that counsel and advice there is a result reached which otherwise would not he reached, he- cause sometimes a man's counsel and advice is worth very much more than his vote, as is the case with the learned ami honor able Senator from Maine. Yet the moral obligation upon the United states, which would thus he Imposed by its action would be no less greal than the moral obligation in case ir had itself voted. In either case to shirk the responsibility of the result brought about by its own act would he a pusilanimity. Now I will hear from the Senator, although I have not 6444 22 quite completed what I hnd to say in response to his valuable suggestions. Mr. HALE. The point on which the Senator arrested my attention was the proposition that it might happen, not upon some matter touching commerce, not upon some matter affect- ing our trade, but upon some matter vitally affecting the peace of Europe, that there might be a drawn condition among them, and that the vote of the delegates from the United States would decide the result. My mind, Mr. President, is as clear as crystal upon what should be done and what I believe would be done in such a grave emergency. Conferences to-day are not like the old- fashioned world conferences, where the world learns the result after weeks and weeks have passed, where battles are fought after treaties have been concluded, hut every nation is in hourly and momentary touch with its representative in any great con- ference. I should have no doubt that in such a condition, in such a grave emergency as the Senator has arrayed before us, the Sec- retary of State would telegraph, with the approval of the Presi- dent, that the United States delegation should decline absolutely participation in that vote. Mr. BACON. But, if the Senator will pardon me, would it not be better that they should be kept away from there altogether 1 ? Mr. HALE. They are there. I wish they were not, but they are there ; and when it comes to a critical condition, if it ever does, I should have no doubt that Secretary Root, backed up by the President, would send a swift dispatch over the wires that in these conditions the American delegation is instructed not to vote. and. if need be, to emphasize its absolute declination to par- ticipate in the grave problems that are confronting the powers of Europe, to withdraw from the conference and return home. Mr. BACON. Exactly. Mr. HALE. But I do not agree with the Senator in his inti- mation that that would involve any pusillanimity on our part. That is, we do not go into the conference in the way European powers do. The reason that is given is a slight one — the com- mercial relations ; and if the other things, which mean war, horrid war, between European powers, jealous of each other, confront that conference and our deciding vote shall settle it either way, I have no more doubt than I doubt that I stand here before the Senate, the Administration would withdraw our delegates absolutely, if necessary, and that Europe would go on and fight its own fights out and take the dread arbitrament of war, in which we have no part and ought to have no part. 1 would not be troubled in the least by the situation that the Senator has pictured. Mr. BEVERIDGE. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Georgia yield to the Senator from Indiana? Mr. BACON. I hope the Senator will allow me to reply to the Senator from Maine. Mr. BEVERIDGE. I wish to ask only a question for informa- tion. How many European powers are requested to attend this conference? Senators have been talking about a deciding vote. I think there are seven. Mr. BACON. So far as I can gather from the public press, 6444 23 France, Germany, Great Britain, Austria. Italy. Spain, and Russia. Mr. BBVERIDGE, Seven. Bo there can not be a tie vote of seven. Mr. BACON. Ob, well. Mr. PRESIDENT. Bui the Senator talks about a deciding vote, Mr. BACON. Possibly one of them mighl withdraw. We can not tell. Mr. President, replying to the Senator from Maine, as I catch the meaning, the kernel of the Senator's suggestion, when reduced to its last analysis, it at last comes hack to what the Senator has substantially stated, although with very much more point than my words, to wit. that we really have no business there. What the Senator has last said, when reduced to iis last analysis, means that we have no husiness there, because. according to the Suggestion of the Senator, it' the time ever comes when what we are to do is to influence the action of that convention our delegates should he telegraphed to withdraw from it. As the Senator says, we have no husiness there: it is a mere matter of tinsel, so tar as that goes, a mere parade, SO that we may hereafter he classed \iith the great war powers, a mere sending of delegates to cooperate with delegates from European powers as a matter of pompous show and display. with the simple understanding that they are there merely as a matter of ornament and not to accomplish anything, not to attend to anything; but that if it reaches a point where their participation will determine The result they will he telegr. to withdraw. If so. why are they there at all? This construction of his last utterance is all consistent with what the Senator from Maine says. The Senator from Maine said in his previous remarks that he not only wishes that they were not there, but he has practically said that they have no business there; that we have nothing to accomplish there for the good of this Government, hut that we have great dangers to incur to this Government on account of our participation. Then he goes further to express nis confidence in the Presi- dent and Secretary of State, and says if it should turn out that our presence there would lie a matter which would exer- cise an influence on the determination of these grave questions by the conference, his mind is clear as crystal that they would be instructed to withdraw from it. I quite agree with the Senator. I have no doubt of that. Bui I want to follow still further the suggestion of the Sena- tor in the first part of his interesting remarks as to whether or not he would agree with me in my present contention so far as regards the present instance. Mr. President, if we concede all that the Senator says, if we recognize the propriety and cor- rectness of his want of concurrence in the propriety of mingling in such matters, is the question as to such propriety met by the suggestion that in tiie present case there is such confidence in the President and in the Secretary of State that no harm will come, that no harm will come in this Instance because of the Confidence of the Senator that we now have a good President and a wise President and a good and wise Secretary of State'.' Conceding that no harm will come, and conceding the sound- ness of all the confidence which he expresses in these high and distinguished officers, does the Senator shut his eyes to the fact that we are establishing a precedent? if a good President and 644-1 426269 24 a wise President and a good Secretary of State and a wise Sec- retary of State and a patriotic President and a patriotic Secre- tary of State can send delegates to a European conference Tela J tive to European international controversies, can not an unwise President do it? ("an not an unwise Secretary of State do it? Can not a President not so good and not so patriotic and a Sec- retary of State not so good and so learned and so patriotic as the Senator believes these officers to be also do it? Mr. HALE. Mr. President The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Georgia yield to the Senator from Maine? Mr. BACON. Certainly. Mr. HALE. I have already stated that such a condition might happen. There might be an Executive and an Adminis- tration that believed a policy which embroiled us in war would be to the advantage of the President or the Administration in precipitating a war. I have felt that we have a safe standing with the present President and Secretary of State, and that can not result. And I do not believe that in such a condition the Senate and House of Representatives are robbed of all power and must wait until the mischief is done. The Senate is not an eleventh- hour body. It has not got to wait until the horse is stolen. There would be under such condition the right in Congress to arrest and prevent the great calamity which would fall upon the country from such an Administration. Mr. BACON. I quite agree with the Senator in that opinion as to the powers and duties of the Senate. Mr. NEWLANDS. May I ask the Senator a question? Mr. BACON. If the Senator from Nevada will permit me to reply to the Senator from Maine first, I will then yield with pleasure. I quite agree with the Senator from Maine in that regard. Mr. President, and I am only replying to so much of what he said as might be construed into a consent on his part to the propriety of such interference and such entanglement in a case where there happened to be a good President and a good Secretary of State. I said in the earlier part of my remarks that this rule is an absolute rule. It is not a rule with qualifications. It is not a rule with exceptions. It is a rule absolute and without exceptions that not only when we have a good President or when we have a good purpose are we to abstain from these entangle- ments, and not only when we fail to have them are we going to abstain from such entanglements, but also whether we have a good President or a bad President we are to abstain, because the rule must apply equally in each case. I was simply endeavoring to point out that while the Sena- tor might be free from apprehensions on account of the particu- lar facts in this case and the particular officials involved, still we are engaged in a matter which establishes a precedent, a precedent which may be followed in the future, and followed by one not good and not wise who may sit in the Executive chair, because it is altogether possible that there may be such a fate in store for this country. The time was when a man who was not a good man had a tie vote for the Presidency of the United States, a man who afterwards was tried for treason to the United States. Now I will hear the Senator from Nevada. 6444 O LOS ANGE 1 ES UBRARV J This book is DUE on the last date stamped below DEC I? 1947 ftt\*g uJ-URL. NOV 2 19M 7543